Well, I confronted H about his affair. He finally admitted it. Of course, said it was already "over" and justified it by blaming me for 10 million things.... Then I told him he needed to be willing to show me proof it was over and commit to a plan. He did more finger pointing at me and about how "it can't work" and then we got in a shouting match. Then he tried to blame it on me that he was leaving... that I wanted him to leave. I made it clear I was asking him to leave to protect myself from infidelity and emotional abuse.

Did you send out you exposure? Also read about plan B! Have you been tested for STD's.

Also keep whatever proof you have, in Texas you can sue for adultery.

I had not sent out my exposure letters yet. I wanted to confront first. I will do that now.

I have not been tested but I guess I should be now! H actually admitted the affair - and that it was physical.

I guess I'm wondering (and maybe just because I'm emotional) what good exposure will do. If they want to be together, let them be together! He's gone - free to do what he wants.

And Maybe I should put this back on my original thread. I was upset so I started a new thread hoping to catch someone online because I felt so alone and sad.... but I know I should keep everything to one thread.

It is so everyone knows what he has done and why he LEFT YOU.

See, if you don't do this he can spin it so it looks like you kicked him out. Don't let him do that.

(((((SUNNY)))))

Sorry that this happened like this. You need to take a breath and devise a plan. We can help you with it.

This is not the way that you want to enter into Plan B, if that is what you are going to do. You should expose the affair far and wide, afterall, if they are in LURVE, all you are doing is spreading the news about their "happiness." Then, Plan A for a couple of weeks and then Plan B. If he truly stays out of the house, then you will have one less thing to worry about transitioning into Plan B.

So, take a deep breath and move forward with your plan.

I know it doesn't seem like it now, but you are better off knowing the truth and also probably having him out of the house. You have been living through a nightmare, tension, lies, and he was disrespecting, belittling you and emotionally abusing you with his words and actions.

Now is the time for you to be smart about this whole thing. Get your ducks in a row with legal advice, get finances in order and know what you need for you and your kids to continue your lives while he is "out there" doing whatever he's going to eventually do.

You did what any self-respecting person who is in a marriage would do.....you brought the truth to light and asked your spouse to make a choice to work on the marriage or leave. He's been playing it both ways for some time and damaging you emotionally to justify his actions. No one should have to live through that for too long. Allowing him to remain in an active affair while living with you is not a way to make the affair go away or make him commit to your relationship. He needs to choose. So do you.... He doesn't have to choose as long you were willing to have him live with you without any boundaries on his behavior.

I think this is positive movement for your life improving one way or another. But I agree with all here.....expose him to the light of day with his affair.....otherwise he's still playing the game.....if his new relationship is so wonderful everyone should know and be able to draw their own conclusions.

Hi there Sunny,
First of all I'm so sorry you are going through this at this point in your life....
I also have been married for over 20 years and my husband also had an affair....
You have already confronted him and given him the choice to stay and work on the marriage, that is what you should have done, you cannot work on the marriage with a third person in it.....
At this point exposure is your ony chance of saving your marriage if this is what you want to do....
The survive won't be any fun if every one knows what he is doing to his family....tell everyone close to him, your children(age appropriate) co-workers, friends......tell them you want to save your marriage and if they could help you infulence him in any way you would be grateful.
I would also tell the OW's family/husband......
He will be mad, you can survive him being mad, not him staying with the OW....
Then make sure your husband knows that you love him and are willing to work and fix anything wrong in the marriage.....
Then sit back and let him weigh everything out......let him feel what his life without you and your family/home will really be like.....
The OW is just a fantasy, when they actually have to live real life and all the problems that goes with that, they won't seem so appealing to each other......
Let it play out, show him the woman he fell in love with, be calm and strong even though you don't feel like it.
Then find yourself some support people so you have someone to talk to and spend time with......
Focus on your kids and family......
Remember to keep your eye on the big picture and don't worry so much about the words that come out of his mouth right now.......
He is in the middle of affair fog babble, look that up ........they all speak a certain script to do what they are doing.......
None of it is true, so don't pay any attention.......
good luck

Sunny, I am so sorry you are so upset, but please understand this is a good thing that you confronted your H. Exposure is necessary if you want to save your marriage. Exposure will ruin their affair and in order to save your marriage you have to expose the affair. Nothing he said last night should change anything about your plan.

Please go forward and send your email to the OW and then proceed to blow up the affair with a massive facebook exposure. I bet you get your husband back!

Just calm down and stick to your plan, Sunny. This is far from over. Your husband is confused and panicked now so it will be harder for him to bounce back from your exposure. Stick with the plan and strike while the iron is hot! You will be ok, friend. {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Sunny}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Sorry Sunny but do not back down now...I know it is hard. Now is the time you will have to muster the strength and push forward. If you cave now, it will only hurt your chances of marital recovery and likely add more resentment to your personal R down the road. What have the children been told now that WH left? They should be informed why WH left and who OW is.

Since WH has left, it is pretty safe to assume he has contacted OW to whine to her. I would toughen up that letter with some language about what the real future will be like. Tell her your children know who she is(and family if you have already exposed to them and received support) and they are disgusted by her...she will not be welcome...ever. I told both of my WH's OW this along with some other realities. Whatever pretty picture of riding off into the sunset they had conjured up in their heads was smashed and smashed hard. A very matter-of-fact reality of child support, a wife taking half, disgusted family members/friends that wanted to rip their heads off, being known as a skank, etc. is not what the OW wants...both OW were stroking out in panic. The more OW freaks out on your WH, the more he will want to throw her under a bus...the warm and fuzzies will be replaced by 2x4s. Set the wheels in motion and stand back. The APs tend to destroy each other and themselves.

Take care. You can do this.

One more thing, when WH starts to blame you for this, that, and global warming either walk away for turn it around on him. Either way do not subject yourself to the rantings of a crazy person...it will only get you more worked up and distracted.

Thanks, everyone for your words of wisdom.

I am feeling somewhat helpless here. I don't have a big group to expose to. I have told my kids the truth. I don't know any of H's co-workers to tell them and they are the only friends he has except for his facebook crowd of old high school buds. Lets face it: OW is one of the old high school crowd so they will all support this relationship regardless of what I say. That doesn't mean I can't expose - I'm just saying, I know he will already have told people whatever he wants them to hear about this.

I can tell him mom - and his sister - but he's not close with them either. He rarely talks to them and hasn't seen them for years.

The only real exposure that will be effective at all are his children.

You're right about this! I definitely got side-tracked and caught up in that.

Sunny, you do have a very effective exposure that you can do. You can expose to the OW's facebook friends and in the exposure ask them to contact her H and parents and have them call you. You can blow up her world this weekend and probably kill this affair.

Doing this today would be strategically impactful because your H and the OW can't talk on the weekends so they wouldn't be able to run interference. Also, your H is in a panic so you should take advantage of that state while the getting is good.

I would send off the letter we discussed to the OW and then start sending out the exposure letter to all her facebook friends, spacing them out 1 minute apart.

The timing on this is critical, because you have a special advantage this weekend before they can get together and do damage control.

I would use the sample letter I showed you but add a few key details about the affair ["my husband has admitted to a sexual affair that took place when he visited XXX, Utah on XX-XX-2010

Follow up with a request for her husband and her parents to call you ASAP and give your phone # and email address.

Sunny, I know you are in distress, but please do not let fear paralyze you. You have a unique strategic opporunity to kill this affair and you can't afford to let that pass.

OK, Thanks Mel.

He claims it is already over - or not part of our real problem - that he was already done...blah blah blah....

He even just sent a text to the kids that "he should've left in April". (Trying to justify his subsequent affair.)

Dear friend of Skankyhola,

It grieves me to write this letter but I believe all of her friends should be aware that Skanky is having an affair with my husband, Joe. I would ask that you inform her husband and have him call me.

According to my husband, Joe Doe, this affair has been going on for 1 year and is a sexual affair. He has traveled to Smith, Utah on business several times and met up with Skanky.

I became aware of the affair last weekend when I found Skanky's texts to my husband on his cell phone.

We have been married for 5 years and have 3 wonderful children who are devastated about this affair.

I would ask that you use your influence with Skanky to persuade her to leave my husband alone. You should also watch your own husbands around her because she is no friend to marriage.

I would appreciate it if someone would notify her husband and parents and ask them to call me at xxx-www-xxxx. Otherwise, please contact me and give me their contact information so I can call them.

Thank you, BW

And we know that is a lie. You SAW her texts last weekend. Even so, you have to expose and get the word to her H. The AFFAIR is the problem, Sunny. Kill the affair to save your marriage.

Got it! Perfect!

Does this really mean they are going to think differently? I'm sure Skanky and H have already both complained about their terrible spouses......

Sunny, if you need some phone support, just email me at ohmelodylane@aol.com and I will give you my #. We live fairly close and I would be glad to talk. I feel so bad for you, but you cannot give up hope!!

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{SUNNY}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I will do that!

And I want to show you this from Dr Harley:

I've read that before. H is not remorseful at all at this point, that's for sure!

It saddens me that he texted our kids and said, "It is not going to work out between your mom and I"

Thats right! Because he is in an affair. So your job is to kill the affair. Once you kill this affair he will be singing a different tune. As soon as her husband and family finds out, I predict she will dump your H like a hot potato. She won't leave her H for your H and you will back her into a corner.

Well, being that they are in 2 different states I don't see how they are going to "be together". It's just ridiculous.

Honestly: with him, I don't know that ending the affair is going to make him turn towards the marriage. I say that knowing if there is any chance at all the affair HAS to end first! He claimed he wanted out before any evidence of the affair. I DO believe him on that. (That the affair started after his initial wanting out.) He's just a really screwed up individual...

SunnyD, don't buy your husband's line that your problems predated the affair. I know you do right now, but it's probably false.

My wife spun her affair as the two-week escalation after the two of us met OM in person. I had seen a PROFOUND effect on our marriage SEVEN MONTHS EARLIER and had confronted her about it.

He was either involved with this woman or "shopping" with other women and subjecting you -- unknowingly -- to Contrast Effect weeks, months, or years before he finally said something to you. Don't buy his timeline. The effect of his wayward attitude was having an impact on your marriage long before he ever addressed it with you, and by that time, Contrast Effect was almost certainly in full swing. He was comparing you to other women, and because his images were based on a fantasy of what those women were like, you suffered in consequence.

Remember, too, that it typically takes 3 weeks after D-Day for a couple to decide whether to divorce or make up. Ignore anything he has to say about what he wants for at least the next three weeks. He wants her, then he'll want you, and this period of vacillation is extremely painful.

Your best bet right now is a stellar "Plan A". Meet his emotional needs. Avoid all Love Busters. Avoid "relationship talk". Show him you're all the wife he needs. But plan to keep Plan A short -- a month or three at most -- and then go to a very dark Plan B to force his other woman (or women) to meet his needs.

Due to the trickle-truth you've received so far, I think his admissions of a PA are just the tip of the iceberg. You have a lot more dirt left to dig up before you hit the full truth.

Doormat: I've been doing Plan A (unwittingly) for 4-5 months now! Given that H has chosen to leave, I have to assume I can't meet his needs any longer and that it's time for Plan B - wouldn't you say???

I agree this is very possibly the tip of the iceburg.

VERY good point about even if the affair didn't predate his original blow up that he was shopping, comparing, etc... I hadn't looked at it this way but that certainly makes a lot of sense.

Doormat, thank you for bringing up the shopping-comparing attitude of a wayward. I think this fits perfectly with what my WH has been doing for years and which culminated in his A.
I believe a wayward always looks for someone better than their spouse. Even Dr. Harley commented on a radio show that if the spouse mentality is "I will be with you til something better comes along" we can pretty much predict the M is not going to work..
blessing

Sunny I just wanted to comment on this, and say he is LIEING!! I said the exact same thing my words to my husband...

"I wasn't happy in the marriage, before I even met OM"
"I wanted a D before I met OM"
"All this started WAY BEFORE I met the OM"

Everything he is saying is...

BULL

P.S when wheels exposed my affair it killed it dead! And I came back wanting my LIFE back!

I'm beginning the exposure process now.

Thanks for the input Atena and Sapphire!

Then why didn't he leave?

that's right...and they only leave when they have a warn nest waiting for them.
A man especially will never leave his wife and children unless there is a wh@re waiting for him and promising him happiness.
blessing

Yep - true.

H texted me. I called him back after 30 min. He is pissed that I told the kids the truth. My youngest sent him a nasty text msg. I don't even care to hear all his BS.

Still no luck on OW H's info. Grrrrr.....

I don't plan on texting him back anymore. I did feel the need to stand up for myself and I did that...calmly. I told him his kids deserve the truth rather than more lies and to blame themselves.

I sent facebook msgs starting with people from her list - and then going from those people to their friends - with the same last name as her H. I am hoping that at some point I hear back from soneone but nothing yet. I figured that was the best place to start in terms of trying to get in touch with him.

Here's the thing: lots of people with his last name but still no him! Hmmm.... It does make me wonder. However, on the phone earlier I slipped in a "OW H and kids..." and H didn't say a word. Did not say she's not married.

Hi - I just wanted to chime on the FB belief that all the old HS friends would support thier relationship.

I am on FB and many HS friends of mine are also, and if I found out someone was having an A, I would not support them, and I know I am not the only one who feels this way!

There are lots of decent people out there and some of them had to have gone to your H's HS!!

Hang in there and keep exposing!

Your right, DaS.

Your right, DaS.

Good point!

Sunny,

It is unlikely your husband has your bedroom bugged. He'd either have to remain near the house to listen to all conversations in real time (by radio bugging device) or come into the house and retrive any standby device to recover the audio RECORDING (like a Voice Activated Recorder). I'm sure more sophisticated devices/technology exist but find it unlikely a WH would go to such extremes.

Thus...IMO...first rule out the EASIEST ways for WH to snoop you:

1. Look for a cell phone left behind that is ON and connected. He may have called his secret cell phone from his regular cell phone and merely left it ON and plugged in sitting on the dresser, or, he could have downloaded a spying application onto YOUR cell phone so check that out as well.

2. Most likely, he's keylogged you and has access to here and any [retracted] other forum...even if you are in a private area...if he has your password he can simply log in as you late at night and still read it. It's possible the admin over there MAY be able to tell if someone else is logging in under your login name from a different IP address but I don't know the capabilities of their system.

a. If this is the case...you can run your spyware application and do a scan. Most likely when he installed it he'd have run a scan himself and then "accepted" the program as OK. Thus...within your spyware program you'll have to root around within the program to see if there are any programs which have been "approved" or on an "approved application" list of some kind.

b. Since he's doing this remotely...most likely the keylogger is set up to send out "packets" of information to a outside email address.

c. Also check the wires running back and forth from the computer (especially the one to the router). Some keyloggers are actually hardware that is connected to the wiring...with one wire IN and then a wire OUT continuing on to the router. This hardware device is keylogging you and using it's own software to compile the information going over the network and forwarding it to him somehow. SOMEHOW...whatever he is using to spy on you has to be connected to the internet somewhere. If it's wireless...unplug the wireless router and just plug your computer in directly....sure the house won't have wireless anymore but whatever's hidden won't be able to tranmit packettes of info to him anymore.

d. It IS possible (though more difficult) to set this up anywhere on the internet cable system set up in your house supplying it with internet access. Most likely it's at the router somehow but this could even be attached OUTSIDE the house at the point the cable (if you have cable provided internet) or phone line (if you have DSL) enters the home.

c. This keylogger is most likely located on YOUR computer. You could get around it by trading computers with someone else in the house (however...thinking about this twice your husband mentioned something about what your son was doing on his computer that needed parental attention...he CLAIMED he discovered that accidentally when the son left his computer open ...however, I think that explanation was gratutious (over the top unnecessary) thus...he most likely has the whole internet system house wide "TAPPED".

3. Until you figure this out...you aren't really safe posting anywhere on the internet and you certainly aren't safe anywhere you've already been that he's seen.


My advice...speak to our mutual friend here again and figure this out.

Mr. W

p.s. - Mr. Sunny, if you are here read this --->31 Reasons to Stop Your Affair then, come back here and tell us your side of the story. There's always her story and his story and then the truth. Why not fill us in and see if we can help you and your wife figure a way through this difficult situation.

Actually...if you are keylogged...he doesn't need to access any website at all to see what you posted using the keylogged password. Instead...he's getting the posts via the keylogger straight from your computer.

However, once you turn OFF the keylogger...then he'll use the passwords he discovered previously to access your email and private posting UNLESS you immediately change your passwords after shutting the keylogger down.

Mr. W

Another thought...

Most likely any device he left behind HAS TO BE plugged in somewhere. He was leaving so it's unlikely he'd want to rely on battery life for his snooping activities. Check all the plug-ins in and around your room and closet.

Often the cable/telephone wires enter the home in the basement near the fuse box (utility room)....check in there too and look for anything plugged in AND connected to the cable/telephone wire or junction box.

Cable uses splitters all the time...THAT is NOT what you are looking for. Most likely one cable wire in and one cable wire out....not one in and three out.

When you find it...take pictures of it and then abscond it and hide it away. May come in handy later (ask your attorney what to do with it...he MAY say make a police report).

Mr. Wondering

Thanks for all the great info, Mr. W. It truly saddens me that I even have to be thinking about this kind of thing right now. H goes and has an affair, walks out the door, and still is looking for ways to hurt me? What IS that?

I know he is just looking for what I have told and to whom. I am upset that I can't even get the support I need during such a difficult time without wondering what is being listened to or read.

Everything I've done I've done to save my marriage. I know H is truly ticked about exposure. It was to SAVE two families...it was not to be vindictive or mean. If he doesn't understand that then he just doesn't. The kids and I love him very much and want him to make the right decisions to end the affair and commit to the marriage and restore this family. I hope that if he does read this he knows I say this with full sincerity and not just as part of some "learned script". If I didn't feel that way I wouldn't be here on a board that supports it.

The OWH deserved to know the truth. Well, at least family (siblings) deserved the right to decide whether or not to tell him. I'm assuming he find out since I received the following text from H earlier this evening:

May God have mercy on your soul.

I don't know what that was supposed to mean except perhaps the brother decided to tell OWH and H found out about it. H and OW should have thought about who they were going to hurt BEFORE they decided to get involved. Now, everyone - two families - 5 innocent children - have to suffer for it. I have fought and fought for this marriage. My children have wanted me to fight for it. They've wanted H to fight for it. At what point do you give up the fight because until the wayward spouse WANTS to fight for it, it does no good. ???

Bless you heart...

Allow exposure to play out...

Get some rest...

The war for your family is far from over.

I endured a few months of this crap and stand today as a testament that the MB plan works. You and your husband CAN recover this and build a marriage of love and extra-ordinary care.

Mr. Sunny...please give your family a chance. End the affair and commit to, at least, giving it a REAL shot. It sure beats the heck out of a life of misery in a relationship built upon the quicksand of lies and deceit. Affairs NEVER work...is your only shot at happiness is with at home with your family...WHERE YOU BELONG.

Mr. Wondering

It means that exposure is working. I mean to refer God being a wayward is just utter babble or the last attempt to "hurt" you back for hurting his affair.

You are doing great.

May God have mercy on your soul.



After my H wrote a NC letter to his former affair partner, OW stated how this is all on his (my H's) soul now. That she has done everything that nobody would find out, and look what you've (my H) done in return... In reality it was just her anger that she was not allowed to continue her ways any longer.

After my A was exposed by my H, OM sent a text message to his cell phone that "thanks for ruining his life".

This is all from affairrages' collection called "My marriage made me do it".

Thank you for the support, everyone.

I am under the impression of the moment that anything I write can be viewed and that's OK. I have nothing to hide anymore. I will go on Oprah or Dr. Phil and tell the world everything I've done and said and why I've done and said it at this point!

@SunnyDinTX: That's the spirit!

What risk does a keylogger pose to you? Right now, none at all. You're in Plan A, as best you can. You're planning your transition to a dark Plan B to distance yourself from his drama, right?

Now, your transition point to Plan B might be something you may want to avoid revealing to your husband. The reasons for planning this privately are two-fold:
1. So that you're not making an ultimatum or demand on your husband. You want to preserve what little is left in your Love Bank balance in his heart, if possible.
2. So that he does not have time to adequately prepare.

My suggestion would be to get everything in order and start your Plan B within the next week or two at the latest. You have some great support from some other Plan B'ers here on the forum. Pick up a pay-as-you-go phone from the grocery store to talk to your lawyer if you plan to go for a legal separation so that you have a legal leg to stand on requiring support from your wayward husband. As you get ready to handle this Plan B, be sure that in every interaction with your husband you are pleasant, cheerful, and handling life just fine without him.

Hey Sunny,
I just wanted to send my support while you go through this painful situation, my husband was saying and doing all the same things at first when he was in the foggy affair thinking, they think they are in love but it's just fantasy they just don't realize it in the beginning, once I exposed and everyone knew including my children things changed for him, he felt remorse for ruining two families as well.....it took a few months for him to come out of the fog but he did and I think he is happier than me now.......he is in love now with me not her and he now sees the situation as a truly selfish act.....
It's a cowards way out of a marriage that needs work.......when this happened I had been married for 22 years........it's not to late, your husband like mine said it wasn't because of the affair that it was the marriage itself and know he sees that what he did in the marriage resulted in the place we were at when the affair happened.....he realized he was at fault as well.......he now is a totally different man, the man I should have had all these years. There is hope for you as well, when the fantasy becomes a reality and they actually have to live the life they thought they would it's a different story.........let it play out, love your husband through it all, sometimes in a marriage one person has to carry all the weight this might be your turn........good luck....

Some one help me here, press ALT,Ctrl,Shift H, and a password box should come up. That is for stealth keyloggers in your machine. Also check his spam e mail on that machine. Offers are sent out occasionaly for KL software upgrades Kinda makes them not so stealth ? The progression of keys might be wrong, If the passwod box comes up, you have a KL on your machine.

I tried that GF, in all configurations and nothing came up. I think the router may be an issue if any. That makes it more difficult, actually, but as I said: I am just going to have to go through the steps to see for sure! Haven't had time today yet.

Thank you so much for the support Door and Jess! :-) It means a lot to me.

Of course, if H CAN read anything I'm typing/reading...he just read plan A/B but that's OK. He would've read it previously before and knows all about it already.

The thing is, H has not said he is in love with OW. He has said it's not hard for him to end it with her. It isn't like he has once said, "I love her and want to be with her...sorry." It's, "She's not the problem." He said he had deleted her # from his phone (I guess to prove that point) but then why would he leave and not give us a chance if he was truly willing to end it and had no feelings for her? That would be crazy. It's like he is saying, "I don't really have feelings for her..it's not a big deal...but I don't have feelings for you either and our marriage is not going to work so I have to leave because you're making me... I wanted to stay in the house for the kids' sake...."

I don't know. I guess I'm just venting or trying to understand his rationale. If it makes sense to anyone, let me know, because I don't get it!

Well - let me rephrase that. I "get it" in terms of how I see it. I just don't see how his logic is possible at all. I think a man would not premeditate an affair - making travel arrangements and everything else - to go see a woman at least 3 times... walk out the door when presented with the evidence - unless he had feelings for this OW. Sure, those feelings are based on fantasy and not reality because it's an affair and not a genuine relationships...but would a man walk out after 20 years if not in that affair fog??? You tell me. Oh yeah - that's right: he would....because I've been too terrible and my efforts to change and be the best wife I could be for the past 5 months are too little too late.

PS: NO word from him today at all. Not one iota. Don't know if the kids have heard from him or not.

SD, you are exactly right. Can you imagine a husband going to such lengths over a friendship with some guy named Fred from the office? His explanation makes no sense because it is not true. What is true is that he is in love with the OW and his addiction is strong enough for him to create an elaborate secret second lifestyle and break up 2 families to accommodate his addiction!

What he is trying to do is deflect the blame for the source of the problems onto YOU. While the marriage was certainly not happy, that is not what led to his desire for divorce, that happened in conjuction with his adultery.

He may also know that even though Texas is a no fault state, they DO take adultery into account in divorce actions. You can file on grounds of adultery and even have all of his records subpeonaed into court. He would be required to give testimony under oath about his adultery. I don't know if they can do this since the OW ho is out of state, but in Texas, we often subpoena the adultery partner into court to give sworn testimony under oath about her affair. Don't know if that would work in this case, but I would sure try.

Pay no heed to his words, but look at his ACTIONS. His actions speak the truth, and a man who would travel to see his OW 3 times, abandon his family and wreck another marriage is in love. His words are meaningless, look at his actions.

I agree, Melody. As they say, actions speak louder than words.

Sunny,
I know it's all confusing, the wayward spouses have to tell any story they can to continue the relationship with the OP. They think what they feel is real what they don't realize is that the affair relationship has never lived through every day stuff it's just all the good stuff.......that's fantasy not reality......
When they are at the heights of the affair they will do anything to anyone that stands in their way, spouses, kids, family doesn't matter.....
You need to kill the affair and have other people help you, freinds of the marriage.....exposure is the only way....
Stand your ground about wanting to continue your relationship with him but only if the affair stops and he ceases all contact with OW.....
Be calm and the woman he wants to spend his time with.......when you do speak be reasonable and firm.........
He will soon realize the mess he has created for himself and his family.....he will start to realize that his fantasy world is crumbling and not hurting everyone else for.....
What he is doing is very selfish and hurtful until he sees this you can't start to re-build........
BTW .....my husband gave me all the crap about it not being the OW it was about our marriage and the way he felt in it........he now talks a different story so what does that tell you, they make themselves believe whatever they have to so they can have the affair.........mine didn't care who he hurt either.......
he sure does now and is still trying to mend fences..........don't believe a word he says right now......think of him as being taken over by aliens......


I think your situation is going to take some waiting out on your part.......

I believe very few waywards are actually all that interested in their betrayed spouse's activities. They are wrapped up in their own little world with their affair partner. About the only thing that really gets their full attention is exposure, and they hate it so much they'll do anything to try to squash the exposure.


You're welcome! I know where I think you're headed -- to a dark Plan B with your spouse -- and that can be a challenge.


OK, here's where a key difference between men and women comes in when it comes to MarriageBuilders. This is an observation I've gleaned from listening to Dr. Harley's radio shows and courses, but I have some trouble citing sources. Men tend to be able to keep feelings of love toward multiple women more easily than women do. I'm unsure if it's social or biological, but for a man it's fairly normal to never stop loving a former lover. Some women are this way too, but it's rarer. The net impact of this is that a man can "cake eat" without mental consequences for a very, very long time. It's one of the main reasons Dr. Harley recommends women do Plan A for a much shorter time than men, because most men will sit back and enjoy the attention from both his affair partner and wife, while most women will be driven to a decision as they vacillate between partners.

This is a stereotype with numerous exceptions, but a useful one. Don't let him cake-eat with his affair partner and you for too long.

And don't believe for one nanosecond that he didn't land in a warm, welcoming bed with the other woman within hours after leaving your house. He's selling you a line of baloney if he's claiming it. His hope is that you'll buy his line that his affair is over, but so is your marriage, just so that he can live a guilt-free existence. Don't offer the DJ of telling him to his face he's lying -- even though he is -- but know the truth in your own heart. And if you ever choose to recover your marriage with this man if he chooses to come back to you during your Plan B, know that you'll almost certainly have a desire to hear the truth about what he's doing right now from his own lips.



I have a log of my wife saying the same thing. "He's not responsible for the problems in our marriage." No, not all of them, but MOST of them! Don't buy it!

I like to think of marital problems a bit like health issues. Sure, your marriage has some warts. A zit here and there, several old scars, and some nasty rug burn from a recent accident.

But that's not what you notice when looking at this marriage. What you notice are the three sucking chest wounds from the multiple gunshots delivered by your spouse into the marriage, with him standing over the body holding the gun. He's stuck three labels on the three holes. One is "the affair", one is "my lies", the last hole has a surprisingly long note on it that tries to explain why even though he pulled the trigger and put the hole there it's really your fault he did so.


Four guesses what's actually happened:
1. He just changed the name in his phone to "Frank Johnson" or some other male name.
2. He bought up another phone just to talk to OW. The bill for this will go to her house or his work address. It may also be a pay-as-you-go phone.
3. He has the number memorized so he doesn't need the speed-dial entry anyway.
4. He's using pay phones, work phones, or other phones to keep in contact and has her number there.

"Deleting her number from the phone" is just a grandstand to try to sell the lie that she's not part of her life.

One other thought, though: my former friend, whom I call "Phil" in another thread, went through this same show with his wife when he moved out. To assuage his conscience, he really did break it off with the most recent affair partner. This is a typical approach to attempt to legitimize leaving. They'll either resume the affair publicly after a suitable amount of time -- typically 3 weeks to 3 months, not usually longer than that -- believing that their "separation" from their spouse legitimizes the affair.

My stepbrother just killed himself 3 weeks ago, and he was in exactly that situation. He was miserable and lonely, even though all his Facebook statuses proclaimed how happy he was with his affair-partner-cum-fiancee...


Actions, not words. You know what's up! He would almost certainly not leave unless he had a shack-up honey ready to receive him.


OK, it's really useful to often think of the affair as causing an alien to inhabit your husband's body. Often, this is the only way I rationalize my wife's bizarre behavior during her affair. She doesn't even remember the hurtful things she did back then. It was very much like she was possessed.


It makes perfect sense when you think about his goals:
1. He wants to preserve his relationship with the other woman.

Often, leaving the wife is a prerequisite for more sex from the other woman. She'll tell him "it's over unless you leave her". He experiences withdrawal, sees a way out when you "accidentally" catch him, and uses that to justify leaving. He'll tell her that he's left you for good. He'll lie and tell you that he's not leaving you for her, but just to have his space or because he thinks that's what you want.


2. He wants to preserve a chance with you, too.

Yep. His destructive behaviors notwithstanding, most men are polyamorous animals. You're a great backup plan! If the other woman puts another demand on him -- like filing for divorce -- then he can hit you up for a booty call when he experiences withdrawal from her until he finally decides to have you served with papers.

3. He keeps experiencing Contrast Effect. And "rubber-band" effect.

When he's with you, he wants her because his fantasy is so powerful. When he's with her, he wants you because you met his needs, too, and he longs to have those needs met. This is the heart of why Plan B is so important: it forces the other woman to meet all of his emotional needs, and usually she's not up to the job.


You are seeing clearly why betrayed spouses have to ignore the torrent of bile -- the words -- spewing out of their spouse's mouths. Those words are intended to confuse and let the wayward keep up the status quo of two people meeting their needs as long as possible. We can only depend on the actions of our spouse. Not the words.

Jess: you're right. They don't want to feel guilty so of course the affair with the OP had nothing to do with the demise of the marriage!

Door: Wow...lots of good insight there. There are some specifics that don't apply (and you'll see why when I post my update shortly) but I know exactly what you're saying. BTW: the OW in this case is miles and miles away - so no running to jump in bed with her.

I totally get the male vs. female differences. That makes a lot of sense.

On the "why would he spend time on my activities" as the BS, here's why: he is concerned about his reputation and what I was telling everyone, basically. It wasn't about knowing what I was up to...it was about him.

SO.... here is my afternoon in a nutshell:

- Had an interesting phone-fight with H at 2:00 - followed by an interesting convo with OW - followed by dinner with H. Very confusing day! I'm too exhausted to go into details. Well, plus - H might not agree with the way I put it into words here (if he's still reading!) Hi H!

Anyway, we discussed working things out but not in detail yet. H and OW both say it is over. We have not discussed him moving home specifically. I want to talk to a counselor first. I have an appt lined up for tomorrow for just me unless we can get H in on a conference call kind of deal. If it is just me I just want to talk about some logistics and good and bad ways of doing this.
The last thing I would want is for H to move home and then back out again in a few weeks, months, or even years. If he comes home it needs to be for the right reasons. I know there are boundaries both of us need to agree to as well. I have to be able to trust him, obviously, and have a plan of recovery in place as well as transparency. When we had dinner it was very calm - not a dramatic thing - and no more talk of me backing off, etc...

Of course, that's probably because of the conversation I had with OW. She said it was over. I clarified some things to her as to why I had talked to her family. I explained why her husband had a right to know and that my only goal was not to be vindictive but for the two of them to end all contact and work on themselves, their marriages, their families in the right ways.

Anyway, talk about a surreal conversation you never think you are going to have... I was surprised at how calm, cool, and collected I was able to be. She started off slamming me but that quickly dissipated when I stayed reasonable and calm.

Crazy, crazy day.

I do agree about not rushing into recovery before H is ready. I don't know that he's there yet but I see hope.

PS: H, if you are reading this, that's not meant to be mean. It is mean. I DO want you to be ready to reconcile - for both of us to be - if we are going to have a shot at a better life!

PS: Door - that's terrible about your step-brother. Very, very sad.

SunnyD,

Be very, very cautious. Believe only actions not words.

I do believe that OW said that "it is over" not particularly because it is over but to try to convince you to stop exposure. She is afraid of you but maybe not afraid enough to really end the affair.

H, if you are reading this, get your butt off your wife's thread and come on here & start your own!

Sunny, looking good, so far. Be very cautious. Can you talk to OW's H to discuss the convo you had with his wife and make sure he's in the loop with what's been going on? Important.

I am definitely being very cautious and looking for full willingness to earn my trust.

I think that is a big reason for transparency: even if the affair partners have the intent to totally stop the relationship they have proven that they are more feelings oriented than integrity driven. Therefore, in a week or 2 or whatever into withdrawal they may go back into feelings-mode and could just start up right again.

I'm not fool enough to believe OW. I know she is just afraid of further exposure.

Oh boy, I would expose her to the moon. She is afraid of it..? Great that's where you strike, where her weakness is.
YOu have very good chances to end this for good!
blessing

Well, I am hoping that their promises of it being ended yesterday were truthful. I hope and pray so not just for my sake but for the sake of 5 innocent children most importantly! Actually, it is for their sakes as well even if they do not realize it.

I have a plan in place where I will know if they are in contact. Again, because I know it is possibly when there is withdrawal to give into that temptation be it for "closure" or whatever what. Too easy to start something right back up even if the intent of the moment is to end it.

Sunny, I am amazed at the NERVE of this skanky, trashy OW to call you and lambast you for exposing her. She acts like she is the victim instead of you and your kids. That is amazing!

Dr Harley has stated that you will know when a wayward husband is serious is when he shows up with hat in hand and is apologetic. I don't get the sense that your H is at that point. Rather he sounds angry at your exposure, which means he is still in protect-affair mode.

I hesitate to give to much advice herein as he MAY be reading. I wish you'd have found something during your searches so we could trust that maybe NOW he isn't reading here but alas...

These halls are full of false recoveries and one characteristic often encompasses them all....HOPE.

It's good to have hope but you've also got to be realistic...figure out your boundaries and stick to them. Generally, the false recoveries start out with the BS so eager to save things that they buy into the wayward spouses lies, false promises or bargains.

Don't do that...

Figure out what your boundaries are and then try to get HIM to subscribe to them (make them HIS idea)...

If it's HIS idea...it becomes HIS obligation.

You give him suggestions...off your list but tell him if he wants to move back in HE has to come up with a plan.

You SUGGEST what such plan shall entail AT A MINIMUM...

Things like:

1. No contact letter
2. Commitment to work a marital recovery plan
3. Seeking another job without travel
4. Complete transparency (to all phones, emails, credit card bills and receipts, passwords, etc)
5. A lie detector test to verify that the affair is over AND whether there are more secret affairs in his past (not because you want to punish him...but because you can't recover if he's lying about his past). He did it once...there MAY BE more as there were certainly opportunities.

Here is a link to one of my favorite threads about boundaries titled "Boundaries vs. Manipulation/Control an Open Discussion". Read it.

Boundaries vs. Manipulation/control

Mr. Wondering

Remember neither has any motivation to tell you the truth on this matter. Beware taking your husband back too soon.


Here are the basic boundaries, from Surviving An Affair. If he won't agree to these, don't take him back. Seriously.

1. No contact with the other woman for the rest of his life.
2. Extraordinary Precautions to prevent recidivism with this or any other "other woman". Usually includes complete transparency in all areas of his life, blocking all ex-girlfriends from social networking sites (possibly removing himself from all social networking if it was involved in his affair), and anything else you deem necessary to eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible.
3. Commitment to a program of marital recovery together. I strongly recommend the Harley's home study course.

In your case, I'd also put in one more caveat.
* No more overnight business trips without your enthusiastic agreement or your presence with him.

TMI alert: It's possible to build enthusiastic agreement via a nightly check-in together at a designated time, with videoconferencing and some intimate time together on the webcam for 2 hours a night or so. Your call as to your comfort level with this solution; it's works well for my wife and I!


No, you don't, and you shouldn't. Trust is his to rebuild, and the only way he can do it is a long time of his actions and words being perfectly consistent. This will typically take about two years after his withdrawal from the other woman has ended, if you follow Dr. Harley's recommended program.



Quoted For Truth. I don't like the fact that there's a double standard for men and women in recovery, but statistics don't lie here: men by and large tend to acknowledge the affair is their fault (most of 600 men surveyed), while very few women do the same about their own affairs (not a single one surveyed of 600 women believed the affair was their fault). Dr. Harley has also observed many recovered marriages in which the woman never apologized for her affair, but very few marriages recovered in which the man did not apologize for his affair. Based on these observations, I believe your husband needs to own this affair and apologize to you in order for you to recover together. I would be reluctant to take him back until such an apology is forthcoming.

Thanks for all your sound advice! I am trying to keep today for myself rather than focusing on the situation, but I agree with all the points made here. Some wonderful suggestions and thoughts.

Rest assured, I am committed to not walking back into this relationship without the right mindset and actions.

Never hesitate to take a few days away from your thread. I had to, repeatedly, in order to digest the avalanche of material shoved my way. And in many cases, when I received a very judgmental response, I had to weigh it for a couple of days to decide whether to agree with it or not, or adapt the concept to my needs.

Leaving for a few days often resulted in responses from people saying I was wimping out or that I couldn't handle the truth. Not so... it's just all of this information is so new, and the emotions so raw, that sometimes you need to stop and catch your balance on the tightrope of emotions so that you can keep moving forward.

Best of luck.

Agreed, Door! Now I'm gonna go get my son and watch a movie! :-)

Sunny, after I did massive exposure like you did I went to Plan B. The A died that day and there was NC.

However it still took my H 6 weeks to come home...no one here could understand why, if the A was over, he wasn't coming home. I believe there were a number of reasons: humiliation from exposure; he was afraid of recovery; selfish reasons. Face it, it was NICE for him to live out of the house for awhile and not to have to deal with recovery.

He was never truly considering leaving me (although this is not what he told the OW) so this wasn't an issue either. I don't think it's that uncommon for WHs to stay away after this.

Good Point, Married. Six weeks probably seemed like an awfully long time when you were going through but compared to the years of investment in a marriage, a drop in the bucket, right?

I did talk to H tonight for awhile. He called and we made an appt to see the FT tomorrow evening. It isn't so much about marriage counseling as it is about discussing my list of must-haves for recovery and what he would like to see happen as well. (H is willing to do MC but I feel we need more than that: we need a good program like MB to restore love.)

H did ask about the time frame for coming home. I didn't want to say a specific time frame and he understood that. He seemed concerned that I was trying to get him to be gone a certain # of days so for some legal reason and that I was just playing along (about reconciliation) until that time frame was up. ???

Anyway, I said basically that I to feel secure about some things before he were to come home and I didn't know what that time frame would be - it depends.

I will say, this is the first time in a very long time that we've talked as human beings about some of the things that have happened. I felt like we were finally getting to some openness and honestly. SO...that was good.

I think we may be on the road to the road to recovery. I know it will take a good plan though, even with transparency and all that.

I also plan on hitting the bugging issue with the counselor and him tomorrow. It isn't right. He justified it because I had snooped, but I was trying to save my marriage. What I did wasn't nearly as invasive as what he did and he did it without "just cause".

Hi,SunnyD, just wanted to chime in with a few observations.

One is that people often betray their own intent by portraying it as someone else's. For example, a thief might be very focused on whether or not someone else was trying to steal from him because theft is very much on his mind. I think your husband is accusing you of the issues that are paramount in HIS mind.

So I see here that your husband is worried about a legal issue having to do with time spent away from the marital home, plus he seems very anxious to get back into the home again without showing much remorse for what he did. Not to mention that was an awful quick turn around.

I suspect (and I totally own up to being somewhat cynical) that after he stomped out, he and OW got together and decided to do some damage control once he realized you weren't going to back down (do you generally? Back down when he gets ornery?)

She spoke to you on the phone to try and make you believe she didn't want your husband. That she had given up. But most OWs are furious when they lose "their" man. Why wasn't she? Maybe because she hasn't actually lost him, but has just gone into stealth mode--to get something in the future I suspect.

I would ask myself what financial or custody benefit might accrue to your husband from:

"proving" he didn't abandon the family (his big hurry to get back into the house without remorse)

"showing" that the affair was over so it had nothing to do with your marital problems (OW TOLD you this and we know how trustworthy SHE is, right?)

I know you probably don't want to believe any of this and I could be totally off the mark. But I think your husband stomped off thinking that it would scare you into submission, then regrouped and decided on a more CALCULATED plan of action--one that will end up with a divorce that benefits him and OW. Does any of this line up with what you know of his personality?

I think it's very important that you, as we say here, set the bar very high for his readmission into the marriage. Do not let your hopes set you up for a false recovery.

Did he admit this? The reason he did it was to facilitate his affair; you did it to prevent his affair.

I have a bad feeling about this, Sunny. His sudden "niceness" makes be believe he and the OW have regrouped. I am hopeful the OWH's does what he had planned to flush any of this out.

Nano,

You make some good points. Even if they turn out to not be true in terms of what H and OW schemed up, they are valid concerns to consider.

Alls I can say (due to me still being afraid H is reading this - and that's OK) is, I have my contacts with the OW family. They honestly did not believe OW to be in the mindset of leaving her H at all. Of course I am not blind enough to believe what all she had to say.

I think it might help here to explain that I am not in the "I'm so hurt I'll take him back at any cost" mindset. I am waaaaay past that. Even the FT agreed that she has seen people in that mindset and that is not me. At this point, if he wants to be with OW - or any other woman - or not even be in a relationship but just not be with me either - I am fully ready to let him go. In ways, I already have. I do not want a man that cannot meet my needs or will not meet my needs, esp. when I am so willing to meet his. I am not willing to settle for less than what I deserve in a relationship. If that means he walks, so be it.

The bar is high!

Melody,

He did admit to their being equipment in the home, yes.

Don't get me wrong - he is not suddenly being "all nice". It isn't at all that he has done a total turn around. I'm just seeing flashes of niceness that I have not seen in an awfully long time....

If H and OW have regrouped, at this point - she can have him. I mean that. I don't mean that to sound like some "woman scorned" statement. I just mean if that is the case, I am not going to fight for this marriage anymore. I'm at that point.

As for OWH - yeah - I am sure he has his own plan in place.

They MAY HAVE re-grouped...

But that often entails a tearful goodbye and a promise that one-day...after the youngest child reaches 18 that he or she will recontact the other and THEN be together.

This is hard to overcome...but it is VERY COMMON.

It's the SOMEDAY we will be together promise.

These situations are not unrecoverable.

The Wayward goes through withdrawal just like any other wayward spouse and hopefully comes to see how stupid the affair was and how much damage it brought upon the family and they THEN discard any notion of ever continuing the affair.

We don't know if he made that kind of promise. You don't/won't know for some time if he ever made that kind of promise to OW. Sometimes it comes out two or three years into recovery...sometime never. But it is common and not a detriment to recovery UNLESS they continue contact. NO CONTACT is a must...after that is achieved anything is possible.

Mr. Wondering

Good for you, SunnyD--you sound like you have both feet planted firmly on the ground!

I don't want you to give up hope for a possible recovery for your marriage. There are BSs here whose spouses did absolutely horrible things during their affair and the marriage recovered. We all want yours to recover as well.

But you have two dependent children. If you are not independently wealthy, seeing a lawyer might be a very good next step. Tell him about this whole "time spent away from home, etc" that your WH is so concerned about and get some idea as to what might be the MOTIVATION behind it.

You may also want to start documenting the fact that he bugged your house, the "May God have Mercy on your Soul" statement (it's what the judge says to the condemned man in every cheesy western I've ever seen), all this stuff may help you in court in the future, if you have to go that route.

And do some exterminating of those bugs!

Marriage Counseling is a waste at this point. We were going to MC while the A was going on and what a waste of time, money and emotional energy.

I suggest you cancel that and insist on counseling with Steve Harley (the number and info is at the top of this page under Counseling Center. It's phone counseling and if you really want the best shot at recovering this, SH is the way to go).

You might also get Jennifer Harley Chalmers. If you express no preference, it's a toss-up. Barring any other deciding factors, I'd say if a wayward husband is involved, go with Steve, and if a wayward wife is involved, Jennifer is a good choice.

Given that a wayward husband is involved here, I agree with going with Steve if you can get him These people KNOW how to rebuild a marriage after an affair. Why go with someone else when you can go with the pro?

Thanks for the advice everyone. I'm not writing a lot right now (ssooo much to do) but am listening!!!! I promise.

I did plan on doing something through MB. I don't think traditional counseling is the way to go either. Mainly, the immediate counseling was to have a 3rd party involved in the boundary setting and what it would take for me to be comfortable again. Also, I'm sure H has some things he would like to see happen too, ONCE the trust issues are resolved. It is also on how to deal with the children. For restoration, I plan on a Harley route!

Having said that.... here's a recap:

Long day and night. H and I met with FT together. Not much accomplished other than H told his side of the whole story of our marriage from beginning til present. I thought it was going to be more about how we go from here in deciding if/when we reconcile. I'm sure H wanted his story out there for the FT to hear. I'm sure he wants to make sure it is understood why he felt it OK to have an affair, etc...

It's OK: I had 0 expectations going into it. I mean that too - not just saying it. Actually, it feels a bit better that he hasn't just "changed overnight" because this feels more real.

SOOOO...I didn't get to get into my list of my requirements for going back in. In fact, I'm pretty sure H just thinks I'm still dying inside for him to come back, etc... He doesn't get that I'm not! The funny thing is, even if I told him that I think he wouldn't believe it. He would think that I'm just being told to say that or whatever. Doesn't matter to me: I know the truth and that is - I'm NOT dying for him to come home or anything like that. In fact, I know that reconciling for me means a ton more pain. I can't explain it, but there's been a shift for me. It's not so much that I've gotten to the end of the race as it has been described, but that I truly can take it or leave it at this point. Right now, I know I will be just fine without him. I would worry about the kids, but I know they don't want me just taking him back under any circumstance either.

The way I see it, for me to go back into this marriage means I have to go back to pain. Back to trying to heal from infidelity where right now I'm good and detached. If I give my heart back to him, that means I also open myself up to the hurt of him being with another woman. If I don't reconcile, I don't have to open my heart back up to him again, and I avoid pain.

Do I still think it's worth it? Do you save the marriage no matter how tough? Well, that's why we're all here. Having said that, the cheating spouse sure doesn't realize the strength of the inner beast they've unleashed. At least not it my case!

We set up another appt for next week so we can discuss the things we were supposed to get to tonight. I actually think it's a good thing: give him more time to sit and stew by himself without me or the kids.

And yeah, Mr. W., I can see that happening with promising a reconciliation "some day". Personally, if they want each other that bad, they can have each other!

I'm really tired but I'll try and post more specifics tomorrow.

Sunny,
I think a little patience and time to let everything settle is what is needed....when we first find out about our spouses infidelities we go into a bit of shock from all the disappointments we now must accept......our worlds and belief stystems are destroyed and gone from our hearts.....
We now don't even know the person we are married to, in our minds they were someone who could be trusted and to make decisions not to hurt us or our families and now we are seeing a person that makes decisions based on only their needs, like we don't even mattered to them anymore.......
We see someone who is weak and they just don't seem worth it anymore if this is how they choose to think and act.....
I think you have decided what your boundaries are and if he can't respect you then I think you have come to the decision that this will have to be it......
I would wait until I made any real decisions until some time has passed and you have really had the time to weigh out all the facts and feelings you have.....
You don't have to go back into the marriage with pain, you go back only if things are worked on between the two of you and both of your needs are met by the other....
Dealing with an infedility is difficut to forgive and understand but it is an opportunity to move on to a better marriage, learning from how and what has happened......
My therapist said to me, why don't you start with believing in him and your marriage UNTIL, he said this is where you start......if it doesn't work it doesn't work......
You have to decide if it is all worth it to you and if you have any love left for him.
Of course you will be alright we all would be....I've never been a quitter and I know at least even if it doesn't work that I tried and I lived up to my word, in good times and bad.......I can only control my feelings and my actions......
He will have to be on the right page for all this to happen, so giving him a bit of time to really feel what life would be like in his new world is all good.......you want him to be committed 100% or it won't work......but that is up to him......
If he really wanted to be with the OW he would aleady be gone.....
Take your time, keep yourself busy with the kids, work..........good luck
you sound like a very strong woman............

Sunny,

Did you get your side of the M heard as well? I hope it isn't all WH doing the complaining and then you move on.

Seems like he is still pretty foggy to me. I would be very very careful about a false recovery right now. Try not to worry about the kids, pretty hard to do, just realize that under any circumstances you will worry about them.

Do something for yourself this weekend and try not to think about WH.

ba

Jess....VERY wise words!

BA: I agree on the false recovery. It truly is hard to not worry about the kids, but I know that eventually it is in their best interest for their mother to be treated like she should be treated. If they need to have their dad separately, because he can't do that - it's so very sad, but better than their mom being treated in unhealthy ways!

I did get my side heard - partly in my individual session the day before and I did speak up in the joint session also.

I don't mean to be so "short" when people have taken so much time to write so much to me lately... trust me that it is all going to my heart and brain. :-) I am just busy and honestly, trying to not focus on this so I am checking quickly and getting on with life with my friends and kiddos. :-)

THANK YOU ALL for being such an incredible group of people who are so willing to help someone they've never even met. Nothing like going through it to have empathy for others, right???

OH...and I keep forgetting to add that yes, the bugs are gone.

Sunny...

I wanted to chime in with a little something...


Right now, when you communicate with your husband or have a counselling session or whatever with him...

YOUR SOLE IMMEDIATE AND NUMBER #1 IMMEDIATE PRIMARY OBJECTIVE..

IS


NO CONTACT.


Keep coming back to that in your conversations with him. In fact, start with that.

NOTHING can be recovered if contact continues.

He's not clear enough thinking yet to really get much else from your sessions as he's focused completely on himself.

So just keep coming back to it as though it's all that matters right now.

He's a day one'er at an Acoholic's Anonymous and all that matters, initially, is keeping the guy sober TODAY and getting to realize that NOTHING can happen beyond that until he strings together a few weeks of sobriety.

Maybe cut to the chase with him...ask him when the last time he talked to OW was and, then test the date he gives by saying have you talked or communicated in any manner with her since then. Tell me the truth because KNOW that you are FOR SURE not coming home until you have gone at least 25 days (however many days left in his hotel room month rental). Tell him you are going to be asking him every day and asking for as much verification as possible and LYING is not an option. Remind him that OWH will communicate with you any contact that he discovers as well (you can bend the truth here a bit as you may not have made that deal but OWH would hopefully contact you in the event he discovers continuing contact...so it's kinda true). Tell him that if you discover he LIED...he'll be out until January, 2011, at least and he'll miss Christmas at home. If he breaks no contact and is honest about it...only the 25 day waiting period resets.

I don't know...come up with your own timeframes but lay out boundaries and then STICK TO THEM.

NO CONTACT...the first essential boundary.

Mr. Wondering

If you listen to the radio show today (or over the weekend), you'll also get some really good litmus tests.

If your unfaithful spouse resists complete transparency in all of his dealings in the future, he's almost certainly not ready for no-contact yet. It's a sign he's going to hide something from you if he wants to persist in maintaining his Secret Second Life. There's no need to argue or fight for this transparency; simply enforce your own boundary that you are not willing to enter into recovery with him until he is eager to give you such transparency.

The same thing when it comes to Extraordinary Precautions. If he's unwilling to implement them, it's almost certainly because he recognizes they will interfere in his ability to pursue his affair. Don't argue or fight, but be willing to state that his unwillingness to protect the marriage through some basic precautions tells you he's not ready to recover with you yet.

And finally, his commitment to a program of marital recovery. If he only wants to see certain state-approved or church-approved marriage counselors rather than work through one of the MarriageBuilders program with you, it almost certainly means he wants to pay "lip service" to recovering his marriage while preserving his affair. Generally because attending marriage counseling before "giving up" would allow him to claim in the divorce to have worked on the marriage, when in fact he never gave up the affair.

You can litmus-test him without setting up conditions for him to fail. You can enforce your own boundaries to avoid getting hurt without making demands on him. Good luck.

And give it time. It usually takes a wayward at least three weeks after D-Day to figure out what he actually wants.

Great advice, Mr. W and Door! It's true that the litmus tests are just as important as transparency - I agree.

I thought that it might be best to discuss all of that with the counselor present. That way, there's a professional telling him as well and not just me. Although, he should be willing even if it isn't just me.

He did agree that we needed something more than marriage counseling. I didn't want to go into specifics with him about what I wanted to do (MB) until I knew for certain there was no contact. SO... all of that will happen next week. He can sit in the hotel without me and the kids and think on some things. Of course, there's always the possibility that he's out hitting the single scene while I am home with the kids....but so be it. Still better than him being here being an unfaithful spouse!

Haven't posted in a few days so I thought I'd put up an update. Not a lot to say: things have been relatively calm with H and I. We haven't talked a lot. He has texted me some and called a few times. It has been pleasant. We needed to discuss some financial issues today, which was not fun.

Right now we are scheduled to go back to the counselor tomorrow night. I am going to tell him though that I don't see counseling or any type of recovery program doing us any good until there is complete transparency and a commitment to the program. It can't be "I'll try" - it has to be that he wants to do it. I've told him this before, of course.

I do believe the contact stopped between him and OW but can't be completely sure. My intel isn't perfect but pretty darn good. However, as we know - it has to be more than just stopped contact with her. It has to be a commitment to the marriage - a desire to be with me. Otherwise, he willl just go right back to OW and if not her, someone else. I DO really believe that I deserve a loving relationship - that I am not just someone to be "endured"!!!

Anyway, I feel somewhat in limbo right now - but am just living my life for me and the kids right now - doing the best for us. We will see what H decides if he is ready for recovery. I just don't know yet.

I am going to get Surviving an Affair today! I have read all I can about it here on the boards, but really need the book.

I do think recovery is more than just working through the issues: you have to work back to the feelings you once shared. I think it's possible, I really do, but only with 2 willing people that are both vested.

I'd add "A letter to the other woman, approved by me, indicating you will never see or speak to her again for the rest of your life" as the first requirement before I'd be willing to go to counseling...


Just remember that SAA doesn't cover exposure, because at the time it was written Dr. Harley & Dr. Chalmers weren't sure of its efficacy. Now they are, and a chapter on exposure has been added to the 2011 edition of "His Needs, Her Needs", and will be added to the next edition of SAA.


I disagree. I think you need to make a new, terrific marriage, much better than the old one, in order for it to survive. And this will involve all kinds of new feelings you've never shared before with your spouse.

But you're right... one spouse can only sustain the marriage for a limited time. Eventually, both partners have to buy in, or the one who's trying will give up and everything falls apart.

I forgot about the NC letter - good reminder!

I did exposure already, to the best of my ability. I can follow up with that if I see signs it is not fully over.

I agree - it's not about the old emotions anymore, is it? It's about the new!

Hey Sunny...

Still confirming "no contact" with him (even though you can't really trust what he says right now...you should be asking him to make it clear it is the number one priority).

Yup on the No Contact letter too...

Boundary: make the "no contact" letter a requirement and since such letter is essentially contact...indicate that you will require the letter to be sent ASAP and THEN, at least, 21 (or whatever number of) days after the "no contact" letter and continued No Contact before you'll consider letting him move back in.

Thus...he'll be motivated to prepare and send it since the clock doesn't begin until AFTER he's sent it.

Boundaries Boundaries Boundaries.

Practice saying what you mean and meaning what you say. He needs the message that you aren't playable anymore and he'd better straighten up or find himself on the outside looking in.

Mr. Wondering

Correction, MrWondering...

Typically, you'll want to craft the no-contact letter together. And the BETRAYED spouse should be the one that sends it, because most waywards will add in their own note about "my wife made me send this, ignore everything it says, it's not true."

They'll often do that afterward anyway, but it's one less possibility.

Got it! Makes sense. Thanks!

Yeah...what he said. lol

Of course, the end conversation was supposed to have happened so the letter seems kinda of redundant - esp. since I already talked to her as well... but... I trust it still needs to be done.

Going over it and drafting it TOGETHER and him signing it and handing it to you for mailing will be a great way to emphasize how important NO CONTACT is to you, the marriage AND to him coming home.

If you make a BIG DEAL out of this he won't want to go through it again. You make this the FINAL of all FINAL contacts. You tell him that if he contacts her again...you'll have to go through this letter writing process AGAIN. It SHOULD BE uncomfortable for him and his willingness to suffer through it is a testament to his willingness to actually move forward.

Of course...he can always refuse to do it...which gives you a great indication of his seriousness about recovery. Much better than trying to read his mind.

There is a method to this process. Take the steps and the next will follow. You can only really judge him by his actions as his words are meaningless...thus...require ACTION to see what he does.

FURTHER...try to curb your expectations a bit. Even if he IS serious and ready to do recovery...the fogginess is going to prevail for some time. He won't TRULY feel guilty until he's in love with you again and that takes time.

Trust the process.

Mr. Wondering

Ahhh...I see.... that makes a ton of sense: the letter is not just for the sake of the letter but for the process.

Talked to H today: he appears to want to work things out and is willing to work within my boundaries of doing so. We discussed those as well as needs he has too. Proceeding cautiously - haven't discussed his moving back home yet but I'm optimistic things can get better. :-)

Don't have time to write a lot of detail at the moment but I think it was a very good conversation all in all.

What are your requirements for recovery? Raise the bar HIGH. You don't want to suffer through a false recovery.

I agree! The NC and transparency along with a marriage recovery program are the basics.

Yes BASICS. Get your list together. You don't want to be taken off guard.

Also, is your WH showing any remorse? Would you be able to get him on the phone with the coaching center?

This way they could tell you what you should do.

Yes - I did see some remorse today. SOmething was different in his eyes - good different!

He is willing to do counseling as well.

So are you calling the Harleys to set up the appointment?

I have to check finances...we may only be able to do the online program. It just depends. I'm getting some good advice on the whole process of MB though. :-)

The online program allows you access to the private forums and coaching center. Worth its weight in gold.

Probably literally, when you compare it to the cost of a divorce.

Very true, Door!

Wow...had to dig my thread out of the recycle bin...

Update on sitch: Moving along slowly. Did see H a few times over the weekend and we talked a little. He came to the high school football game Friday night - met me there. The boys kinda did their own thing, running around with friends during the game. I know it was uncomfortable for H yet he showed up. He spent a little time Saturday with S14 while I ran around with S16. Sunday he met me at church and we sat together with S14. S16 went to the youth service. SO... He still has not seen S16.

I thought he would want to talk or see me yesterday but I didn't hear from him after church. When I asked him about it he said it was because he was leaving me to my studies...knowing I had a lot to do. That makes sense but I sure would like to see him "trying" a bit harder!

I have been confirming NC to the best of my ability and see no signs there. Of course, one can never be 100% certain, which leads me to today:

I'm feeling a bit depressed today - resentful even. I think I have been fighting so long and so hard for my marriage, "staying strong" and all that, I am just now processing that my husband actually cheated on me and was intimate with another woman. I guess I knew this day would come, that I couldn't just sweep it aside and not work through it, but I didn't expect it to be today. I thought it would take a little bit longer, when H came back home and the day-to-day realities of living with him would sink in.

Right now I feel sorry that I married someone who didn't have the integrity that I thought he had. I'm wondering if I can ever get over that - not just the actual infidelity. I don't want to be partners with a man who thinks that there is ANY justification for cheating! My mom is a horrible nag, unpleasant to be around, and extremely critical yet my dad has never stepped a toe out of bounds! How do I know? Because he was Mr. Mom and was always with my brother and I as soon as he got off work. He never went anywhere without my brother, myself, or my mother except maybe to go mow the lawns at church! Heck, he should be anointed for sainthood, imo.

I want a man like THAT! A TRUE family man - and I would treat him a helluva lot better than my mom treats my father, that's for sure.

I am confused are you in plan B? because right now I see no plan NOTHING. You are in plan C and that plan will lead to a divorce.

Was wondering what was up with you lately; almost bumped your thread.

Ups-and-downs are all part of recovery. If NC holds, your husband will come out of withdrawal over time. However, here we bump up against another critical difference between men and women:

Women usually have more withdrawal from a relationship than men.

Now, like most rules-of-thumb, this is not remotely absolute, and has so many exceptions as to be almost laughable. But it often explains why men have the APPEARANCE of being unaffected by withdrawal. The other woman is safely tucked away in a corner of his heart, and if he never sees or speaks to her again, he won't trigger and feel withdrawal. Or if he does, it may be very rarely.

You'll read story after story on here of faithful wives resenting the fact their unfaithful husbands seemed to "get over it" so quickly. It's this ability to create separate "rooms", as Dr. Harley says, in their lives for the women they know. The challenge for us is to integrate our wives into every room of our house, so that no matter where we go or what we're doing, she's on our mind.


You know, a year ago here, many posters were harping on waywards having a "character defect" of some sort. Then Dr. Harley reiterated his belief -- that forms part of the core of the MarriageBuilders treatment strategy -- that EVERYBODY would have an affair if presented with similar circumstances. For the first-time unfaithful spouse, it's not typically a matter of "integrity". It's that they never believed themselves capable of an affair, therefore did not enforce appropriate boundaries with members of the opposite sex, allowed one to fill their needs, and grew to love that person.

That's why so many of us suggest regarding a wayward spouse as having had an alien inhabit their bodies. It's extremely difficult to merge the person you thought your spouse was with the extremely hurtful, self-centered person they became during their affair.

So many times in life, we find metaphors that aren't true, but are useful. This is one of them. No alien actually inhabited your husband's body, but the combination of Contrast Effect, Love Bank balances, Exclusive Needs-Meeting, and his desire to continue the affair and have needs met by both partners made him act in a way consistent with totally being "not himself" anymore. Make sense, I hope?


As he's a man, there can't be. He MUST be remorseful and apologetic, have turned over a new leaf, and commit to do ANYTHING he has to do to repair what he broke before you take him back. Dr. Harley noted in a recent radio show that very few recovered couples had a husband who was not remorseful at the start of recovery.

It's a little different with wayward wives. Often, recovery is begun with no remorse, and the wayward wife often feels justified having had her affair. Not sure why there's a double standard, but the fact remains that many marriages can recover and be amazing despite a wayward wife who's not remorseful, but very few marriages recover if the wayward husband is not remorseful.



And this is why Private Messaging is disabled on this board. All this advice flowing around, all these betrayed spouses thinking just this way, and that's a recipe for the creation of more affairs.

Keep your guard up very high. Enforce your own extraordinary precautions against having an affair yourself. You are at a particularly weak point -- when you're thinking about the kind of man you want -- and your only protection is ensuring that you're never in a situation that you'll allow another man to meet your emotional needs.

On your reading list, I'd add "Surviving An Affair" by Dr. Willard Harley & Dr. Jennifer Harley Chalmers...

Thanks for all the good advice, Door! Don't have a long time to reply - off to class - but this is VERY good thinking material!

Will reply later - and I did order SAA.

Sapphire - I guess you're right.... I don't know... I didn't think there was a need for an A or B if we were in reconciliation mode. ???

A possible suggestion:

Does your husband have a computer (laptop) where he is staying and/or a phone with internet service???

One way to HELP insure/verify "no contact" is to ask/require him to key-log his own computer with reports emailed to you remotely and for him to shut down internet service on his phone.

Kinda like a guy trying to quit smoking pot giving up access to and control of his bong and other stuff.

He should also be giving you all his email passwords and the like. In fact...it would be best if you could ambush him with this information by asking for it, possibly, while he's at your house and you are sitting at the computer ready to "log in" to his accounts and check them (before he can clean them up).

Of course he can circumvent such access and monitoring...but recall, you aren't watching his words but his actions TOWARDS being open and honest. An honest man hides nothing...and his reaction to your insisting is one such "action" to watch closely.

If he hesitates...you say "there are no secrets in marriage...not anymore...buck up and give me those passwords right now"....

and

I'm TRYING to help you help yourself...you want to come home don't you? Let me be your accountability partner...we can do this TOGETHER as a team. You may not realize this but I actually UNDERSTAND fully that breaking contact with her is very emotionally difficult for you. You are a caring man and I understand you had feelings for this woman. It upsets me that you did/do have such feelings but I'm not going to sit here and deny reality any longer... WE CAN DO THIS TOGETHER. I will help you if you let me.

(between you and me...we know the "feelings" he has a complete crap and that a relationship build on lies and deception will never amount to anything...but THAT is not his thoughts and feeling today....today, he's feeling like he lost someone he feels was important to him...feelings lie...but he'll only come to understand that much later in the process...a process only you can LEAD him to. Unfortunately, they rarely do this on their own)

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - you MUST have firm boundaries. He MUST know that it's VERY possible he ain't coming back. Sure you'll help pull him out of the hole but ONLY if he sticks to the rules. Otherwise, you are pushing him back in.

Agreed, Mr. W!

I like how you put that about doing it as a partnership.

Just to add...we've had some issues come up with the kids that have taken precedence the last few days so all our contact has been about them, not us.

Long story. I'm exhausted from my own school work and motherhood!!! I don't have the mental energy to deal with marriage...lol. I know it has to be a priority, but why on earth does everything happen at once?!!!

Door...I'm so glad you posted all you did the other day. For the sake of brevity I won't repost it here, esp. since it's just a few posts back. All these things you've said have been so extremely helpful to me the past few days! I can't tell you how many times those thoughts/words have popped into my head.

YES...You're right: with my feelings of sadness, right now I would be vunerable to looking to someone else making me feel better. I guess it's the whole grief process: You deny, you get angry, then you get depressed, and hopefully, acceptance brings some peace. I am one who fully believes in keeping yourself out of temptation's way, esp. when you know you're vunerable. No walking to the edge of the fire to see if I can keep from getting burned! lol. I realize that's what H did. He let himself, in a vunerable state, not only walk toward the fire but brought along some wood to burn just in case.

I now realize the most important thing is to never take your marriage for granted. ALWAYS make it a priority, even when it seems "fine" because you never fight and get along well. Also, never think your spouse incapable of an affair. It's just too easy these days. Keep yourself out of harm's way by not playing with fire if you're vunerable.

Therefore, I can see your point that it isn't so much a character defect as one's not guarding his or her integrity with care during a sensitive time.

It IS difficult to see that this whole affair business isn't as serious to H as it is to me. So yes - he's getting over it a lot quicker than I am although I have not harped about it at all.

I can say that the last few days I feel like the alien has left - and that's good news! When I look into the eyes of THIS man, it's the man I love, not the stranger that's been there for months. Our conversations are going well and he's even doing some book reading and being sensitive to all my needs.

We still have not decided when he is coming home. I am making sure he is committed to continuing the MB program and that there's to be no backsliding. Hopefully this won't take too long, but I do NOT want to live through a false recovery if I can help it!

Update....Although, not much change to report at this point.

Have been focusing on kids most of this week with homecoming (huge deal here) and D19 coming home from college for the weekend. Also, S14 has been having some depression issues so I'm watching that carefully.

H met me at the football game on Friday night. Saturday after I got the kids off to the homecoming dance he and I had dinner. It was nice. Sunday we went to the movies and played putt putt. Tonight the boys and I met him for dinner. It was the first time S16 had seen him since he left. It went well - nothing heavy - just friendly.

Overall I am seeing MUCH more of my husband back - the H I know and love. You can just tell in the eyes when they're truly there. We still have work to do, obviously, before he comes back home but I am feeling very hopeful that we can get past this.

So far we have been focusing more on reconnecting than working through the harder issues. I know we cannot ignore those, but I felt that in order to have the desire to get through those, you have to be motivated to do so. Now that I feel that bond is back, it is time to start dealing with more serious matters. (This doesn't mean, btw, that I haven't been confirming NC or asking for transparency, etc...)

H and I need to put a picture together of what our married life should (and will!) look like. We have to put together a plan to meet each other's needs and make our relationship a priority. I have to feel secure that he is doing everything he can to guard himself from infidelity both now and in the future. I'm sure he wants to make sure the changes I've made are going to stick.

So far I think things are going well. I still haven't let my guard down and am protecting myself. I guess I don't feel quite secure enough to just let H back in totally yet. I think that's healthy though because he has to EARN that.

On the one hand...separation protects you from a false recovery and gives you time to assess his convictions (and get through no contact withdrawal)...

However...

Separation is also more likely to lead to divorce.

He has to come home sometime and I think I would have you TRY to put the control back into his hands. Meaning...YOU are NOT keeping him out of the house. He is because he has failed to make you feel safe and is failing certain specific pre-requisites you require before letting him come back home.

He's an adult and a man. Treat him as such as YOU Plan A him through this period and LEAD him back home.

How you go about this???

I don't know. Perhaps you communicate with him that if things go like they are...maybe he'll be able to come home in January or February. (i.e. - you two are on the slow train)

He says: "Whoa...what are you talking about? I was thinking the end of this month".

You say: "Then how would you propose to make me feel safe enough by the end of this month to come home...what is YOUR plan?" (let's come to a decision TOGETHER on how to take a faster train...what would that look like?)

He says: "I don't know"

You say: "Well would you like time to develop your own plan or would you like me to give you some ideas for "your plan" which MAY get you home by Christmas (which is what I would like very much). Better yet...would you like to develop a plan TOGETHER."

You see...you are making HIM work out a plan to get himself home. This isn't you forcing him out. If he could convince you tomorrow of your safety I'd say let him back in so you two can fix your marriage under the same roof. That ain't happening but you get the point. There are risks to separation and he could very well end up back in the fog in some other affair. Sure you could tell yourself...fine, I don't want him back if that's the case but he is very vulnerable and prolonged separation will allow stupid justifications and rationalizations (like you don't really want or care about him) to creep into his vulnerable mind.

He needs to be home.
You need him home.
The kids need him home.

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- Since you post on several boards you MAY consider sending him here to post at least 50 or 100 times. By doing so, you'll be able to get the opinions of numerous objective persons that have been in both your position and his position as to whether we believe he is safe to move back home. If he can convince us...then that's a pretty good indication it's time. This would be a really quick way for this situation to be handled effectively without YOU having to do any of the work and trusting him blindly. His words here won't lie. We've got gre8 bullcrap detectors here. Plus...with him posting here you'll have a degree of comfort knowing where he is and what he is doing with his idle time as you rebuild trust. He should start a thread "I want to move back home...what should I do".

Very good ideas, Mr. W! I think it is great for the plan of recovery to be both of ours that we come up together. It's been difficult for me to want to allow him to come home. Not because I don't want him home, but I am afraid of getting hurt if he comes home and it's not what it should be. There's also the point of view that he needs to be "recovered" and earn his way home. However, it IS awfully difficult for us to work on our marriage like this. I think we are so busy playing it safe that our progression is slow.

I don't know if I could get him to post here, but maybe! That's a very good idea. Since part of the recovery plan is MB, it would be a good thing for him to be on here as well!

Sunny,

Please read this... Recovery After an Affair

Notice especially Extraordinary Precautions number 3. - Spend As Much of Your Time with Your Husband as Possible.


You've already been hurt tremendously. Because I have recovered my marriage I come from the perspective of KNOWING how good things can eventually turn out for all those involved in your situation (including your husband). IMO, continuing separated is only increasing the odds exponentially that divorce will be your outcome. Divorce hurts too, likely much more than a few more months of REALLY "trying" (after "No Contact" as there is no "TRYING" before no contact).

Sure recovery is hard and risky. But if it's your preference then I'd like to see you give it the best opportunity you can. Your husband is a crap head right now. He's going to continue to be a crap head for some time. If you intend to wait until he he's not a crap head and "recovers"...you may as well chalk up the marriage right now because, IMO, he can't do it without being in the marital home with you and your family holding him accountable for his behavior and actions. You MUST work the recovery plan TOGETHER in each others presence.

I also think you are stronger now. As long as he's in No Contact I think you can personally handle it. You've detached from having to save it to whatever happens...happens. It's a much easier place to be when trying to work with a hopeless depressed former wayward.

BTW...I am not saying allow him to move back home tomorrow. Rather work on a time table WITH HIM and come up with a PLAN together towards accomplishing such hopefully before the holidays.

Firm boundaries.

Mr. Wondering

You make some really good points! I AM stronger now, that's for sure. You're right: I have been waiting for H to be "recovered" before pursuing a more aggressive form of recovery. It does seem safer that way.

I'm going to read that article on that link right now! H and I did spend a lot of time together this past week - more than in a long time, even before he left the house! (Well, as you can imagine, being in A mode, he wasn't interested in spending time with me at that time.) From last Friday until today, 15 hours total and it was all really nice. Last night was especially nice. I know the goal is 20, but given that last weekend was homecoming for the kids, it was a very busy weekend for me!

I think a big part of me is waiting for H to initiate more of the recovery because I want to see his level of interest be where it should be as well as his level of effort. Some people tell me he should be begging, pleading, etc... before I consider fully letting him back in. It's hard to discern between that and needing to do "the work" before he gets to that point. Does that make sense???

Absolute truth. Even when things are going good, you HAVE to protect yourself.

I agree, HHH! If people would just keep themselves out of temptations way we would have a lot less infidelity going on.

I really want to work on the specifics of a recovery plan with H this weekend. I know we need to do that. Why am I not feeling it? It isn't that I don't care, obviously. I think part of it is that I am tired of being the "relationship keeper" and I want HIM to fight for our marriage! I want to see him step up to the plate instead of me instigating everything towards a better relationship.

Part of me knows that it's true: if I wait for him to be "recovered" that I might as well write it off. The other part of me wants to see him pursuing our reconciliation with at least as much gusto as he did the dang affair!!! Ya know????

Sunny, that is an unrealistic expectation from a detached person. He will be more proactive when he is in love. He is not in love and won't be until he moves home and recovers the marriage.

What you need for this step of recovery is his COMMITTMENT to go through the motions of recovery. That means EP's, undivided attention of 20+ hours per week, and a committment to go through the lessons I gave you.

But he needs to come home to make this work. The longer he is out, the higher the risk of divorce. MrW is exactly right about that. So go see him, get his committment and get him home.

if he is reluctant to come home, I would surmise the affair is still on.

Mel...you're back! :-)

Thanks for your input. I guess that is an unrealistic expectation. I will admit it is hard for me to move forward without it, maybe because I have detached so much myself. I'm not sure.

I'll be frank: a big part of me right now likes this life of not worrying about H or what he's feeling or what he wants: of not looking over the other side of the bed and being sad because of what he's done. I do love him, but I like being detached from the pain... as long as he is not in the home, I can stay numb, I guess.

I know that's not right...but I'm just trying to be honest.

Good to see you, friend! The longer you put this off, the harder it will be to face it. I am getting very concerned that your recovery has been delayed, Sunny. Avoidance is not an effective tactic if you want to save your marriage. There is something much better than being NUMB in store for you and the sooner you start working on it, the sooner you can have it.

Let me put this another way. You were already detached in your marriage before the affair. More detachment is not the solution but more of the same condition that LED TO the affair. He is more vulnerable to an affair today than he was before the affair. This is what needs to change. Separation is BAD for your marriage.

The solution is to create attachment and intimacy and you can't do that if you are separated. You are both developing BAD HABITS that become more entrenched every day that passes.

Get him home, Sunny. I would close this deal today and get moving on the recovery of your marriage before you lose that chance.

I'm sure you are right. UGH! lol

But I LIKE avoidance!!! The problem is - so does H.

OK: I will address this today if at all possible - tomorrow at the latest. I promise!

THANKS for the kick.
:-)

Close the deal, girl!!

LOVE that smiley!!!

Working on my plan of action now.... will let you know how it goes. (Thanks for all the material too - it's awesome!)

Good girl!

yeah...

Melody...

For her emotional safety...could she ask him to sleep in a spare bedroom for a bit here as she pursues getting a commitment to trying AND sees some ACTION pursuant to such commitment.

With him IN THE HOUSE but not in her bed she may get the chance to confirm no contact outside of just his word.

Then...moving back into the bedroom becomes something WH earns as a reward for actually DOING/STARTING the plan.

A carrot.

Just a thought.

Mr. Wondering

That IS an interesting though, Mr. W.

I talked with H at length. He was very interested in the plan and willing. I addressed like you had advised, Mr W - that it should be something we work on together to achieve the mutual goal of an exceptional relationship. :-)

SOOOO....he is coming over tonight. We're going to watch a football game and I'm going to give him the MB workbook that I have. We're going to start the program right away with the goal of moving him back into the home. He says he wants to move back home. We agreed that it is the best way to work on the marriage. We didn't set a specific time table but we will discuss that later. He mentioned his agreement at the ext stay hotel is up in a week.

I get where you are going but I think the faster they are together, the faster they are together. It is going to be awkward, but the faster they jump in, the sooner the awkward stage will be over. With women, SF and cuddling in bed makes us feel closer, so I was hoping that sleeping together would make them feel more bonded.

Agree on that front.

My main concern with H moving back home without a "guarantee" or firm commitment is the kids, not me. I feel I am strong enough to handle anything at this point, but it would be terrible for the kids for H to move back home and then if things didn't go as he wanted (or he got back involved with the OW) for him to move back out again. That would just be devastating for the boys, especially. (Daughter is away at college.)

Having said that, we spent most of the weekend together and H did stay last night at the house. It was a really, really nice weekend. I gave him the workbook (Romantic Love) and he's going to start with that. He seems eager to do the work that needs doing in this.

Has he not given you a committment to end his affair and work on a plan of recovery for the marriage?

Sorry - I didn't word that very well, above. Yes! He HAS definitely ended the affair and committed to working on the marriage. (Otherwise I would be in Plan B, or should be, right?!)

What I meant by commitment/guarantee is more of a theoretical thing. I see marriage as a convenant. H sees marriage as more of a contract. Because of my religious upbringing, I tend to be more of the "committed for life" viewpoint. I was always taught that unless that person is abusive, cheats on you, or abandons you - you work out your issues. H was taught nothing other than if you're unhappy - leave or look for someone else to make you unhappy. Not that those words were actually spoken, but taught by example from both his mother and father.

Of course, with his infidelity, I was given the "get out of jail free" card if I wanted out. Obviously I do not - I prefer to work through it and make our marriage affair proof for the future. I know H is committed to that but I no longer see him as being "committed" as I am committed. I now see the marriage as being conditional - that there are no guarantees anymore that it's for life. However, there probably aren't anyway and it's not such a bad way to look at things. With this changed perspective I KNOW we have to make our relationship a priority forever, not just now while we're reconciling.

But... that's a scary thought to me. The difference in perspective brings a bit of fear. I'm sure that is my trust issues talking. I am also sure that is why you have the Extraordinary Measures in place. Part of me can't quite let go of the "don't want to be fooled again" attitude though.

Morning update: H and I talked again this morning. He was worried about it being awkward for everyone, his coming home. Says the weekend was nice though and thanked me for making it not awkward. SO...we are both looking forward to (as are the kids) his coming home this week.

:-)

YEAH.

That should really enable you to BOTH get working on learning and implementing the MB program (your best shot).

Mr. W

You're right, Mr. W. I can't tell you how much my love bank began to be filled up by his being around this weekend so much! I'm actually going from just being optimistic to being excited about our future together. Having started out being totally unsure if I wanted to even reconcile after finding out about the A, that's a huge jump.

The MB plan WORKS to restore feelings. I can say that with certainty even though we are just in the beginning stages.

Do you have "his needs her needs"?

My wife and I listened to it TOGETHER on a cd on a road trip to Northern Michigan.

Road trips are great places to talk as your audience is captive.

We liked the CD because we could listen to it TOGETHER instead of reading it separately. If you already have the book (and not the CD) then read it to each other under the premise that BOTH of you are invested in building a marriage of romantic love and extra-ordinary care. Just "recovering" isn't enough for you and hopefully isn't enough for him (ask him what HE wants as you involve him in the process of doing this TOGETHER).

That link I gave you too...How to recover a marriage after infidelity should be reviewed first whenever you discuss recovery as it has the lists of extra-ordinary precautions and reemphasizes that without "NO CONTACT" nothing can be achieved whatsoever. It's still early for your husband and either he or OW may yet still reach out to one another for one last "closure contact" or whatever. He must resist the urge to contact her and the urge to take/receive/accept her possible attempt at contact. Like I said awhile back...EMPHASIZE NO CONTACT EVERYDAY as you NUMBER ONE boundary.

Mr. Wondering

I have the book. I have some other CDs for the MB program but not the HNHN book.)

We reviewed that checklist (from your link) already. I agree that maintaining NC is priority 1!

I keep emphasizing to H that we aren't just "getting back together" but that we are looking for a new marriage - a new way of relating. He is definitely on board with that.

One of the primary jobs of a "marriage coach" is to motivate the spouse whom is lessor invested or motivated to undertake the MB process. The "reluctant spouse".


I'm guessing that is your husband. He's just come off an affair which necessitated many rationalizations, justifications and history rewrites to succumb to. He doesn't think your marriage was great, doesn't see how it can get better and doesn't think you'll ever let him live his affair down no matter what he does. So as one of your coaches I think it's great that you are selling him on the program by saying things like:



Other "get on and keep on board comments" to deliver to your (F)wh are things like:

1. Wow...this MB program sure seems to indicate that we'll be having a lot more sex ( SEX sells)

2. This MB program seems to be indicating that we will get to a point where we really never discuss your affair again (which sells against his fear of recovering but never never being able to ever live down what he did).

Anyway...just continue to be aware of the fact that he's kinda early in withdrawal and you'll likely have to "sell" and re-sell him on the MB program while you're working on the program. Try to point out areas of the program that will benefit HIM as well as you. That working this program isn't about his affair it's about FINALLY building the marriage both of you likely wished for as children and young adults. It's about becoming good spouses and thus, good respectable people. An example to your children and to others about forgiveness and redemption. Modeling how good "doing the right thing" can become.

BOTH OF YOU....get the payoff from working MB. It's not a punishment program where he has to delve into his family or childhood issues to figure out "WHY????". Instead...it's like a hurricane relief program that comes in AFTER the disaster you both (mostly him for the affair but accepting your end of the responsibility) created and just bulldozing the old marriage away and rebuilding from scratch.

Mr. Wondering

I have experience that backs this up !

Mr W: I TOTALLY agree! Most of what you said is exactly what I said to H on Saturday. So - I'm learning well! :-)

And I agree...sex DOES sell. lol

Pepper: you learn by doing, right? hee hee (love the ROTFL dude!)

So....H is coming over and bringing some of his things back tonight. We're going to watch a basketball game and have dinner. I will plan on sitting down with him and scheduling our 15-20 hours for the week and see where he is on his questionnaires. We can also reiterate our terms - continued NC and MB program, etc...

Quick update: H brought some of his stuff over last night and is bringing the rest home today. So...he will be fully back home today. We had a nice evening last night. In some ways I keep expecting the other shoe to drop because things are going exceptionally well... All boundaries are being maintained, reconnecting is feeling good and natural, and H is being as gracious as he possibly can be to help me feel comfortable.

Take it as it comes, right?! I've had a few small triggers that have made me a tad uneasy, but that's to be expected. Watching a movie last night the name of the town was the same as OW's name! That wasn't fun. Then, H left his cellphone this morning and came back to get it and I started wondering if he seemed "panicked" over leaving it. I didn't talk to him about the movie thing but I did about the cellphone. He reiterated NC, that he wanted me to be assured, and that I had every right to feel the way I do. This is a BIG step for H! A month ago it would have been a different mindset. We agreed that openness and honesty is the only way to go. I told him that he could be honest if he was tempted to contact OW or vice versa but that it was important not to, of course.

Anyway, I find the more gracious H is, the less anger I have over what's happened. Hurt is still there, but lessened.

Sweet!! The sooner the better.

Good Luck..............so happy.................

Thank you, Mel and Jessi!!!

Move home has been completed and already things feel better than living apart. The together time is VERY important to reconnect, as I am seeing by the day. We are looking forward to Thanksgiving and the kids are glad their dad is home. :-) Heck, even the dogs are glad!

I still have triggers that bother me (of course) sometimes hourly. I find with him home though, I get over them much faster.

I feel that this may be a bit of honeymoon phase so I'm keeping my eyes open. I know we still have much needed work to do. It's nice though, to be able to enjoy some peace for a bit.

We have plans to go see the new Harry Potter movie tonight at midnight with the boys and will have to wait in line forever! We can take our MB workbook with us to keep us busy during the wait! LOL

Recovery is still going well with H. I'm looking forward to having more time to do more "work" on things this week with the holiday. I have class tonight and a major paper due. Hopefully, after that can spend some good time getting caught up on my reading and questionnaires for MB.

Overall the attitude and atmosphere is really good. I do know that H is REALLY trying. He's doing some very practical things to make sure I feel secure and to change what was "broken" in our relationship on his end before the affair. We are spending all of our free time together and he's even making plans to rearrange some things in the house so that I don't feel isolated when I'm doing homework, etc...

Here's my big issue of the moment. H still has not told me he loves me and that makes me really sad. It's not that he's not an "ILY" kind of guy. He used to say it all the time. He's only been home a short time though and it has been about a month since the A truly ended. I'm sure he must still be going through withdrawal even if he doesn't say so. Is it too soon to expect that? I certainly don't want him saying it if he doesn't mean it!

I know it takes time in reconnecting for feelings to come back and be in love again. I feel we have been doing the right things although, we need to do more reading more quickly in terms of the books. In an intimate sense - things are going well. More than well, actually, lol. I do have to fight my mind in terms of memories of things I read that he wrote to OW and the thought of them being together physically. :-( I DID say ILY to him yesterday but not hear it in return: that hurt a lot! Although, given what we were doing at the moment it is possible he did not understand what I said! It wasn't like I said it straight to him with nothing else going on. SO, I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. Of course, I was mad at myself for saying it. I wanted him to say it first!

Sunny, I would bring that up and train yourself to bring up all your concerns. Here is what Dr H says about that:
It sounds like things are rocking right along!

OK. I wasn't sure whether to bring it up or not at this point as I didn't want to jump the gun if it was too soon to expect that.

I have to remember that this is now about getting my needs met as much as it is about restoring H's feelings!

Yes, things are rocking right along for the most part, so I'm not complaining. I tend to be a good student when I have good teachers and good material to follow! :-)

You are a great student!!

Keep living the MarriageBuilders lifestyle yourself, including radical honesty with the sole exception of exactly how you're monitoring his compliance with your no-contact agreement. False recoveries really, really suck, so that's why you keep up your vigilance for a time. Eventually, you won't feel the need to check on a daily basis, but while you do, don't feel bad about doing so.

And yes, you got it right, he's in withdrawal from his affair. Expect symptoms to continue for up to six months from the day he agreed to no-contact. If symptoms continue past six months, you can be certain he's in some kind of contact with the other woman.

Encourage him disclosing his feelings to you. For several months, my wife and I scheduled "feelings time" for 8:33 every night for about 10-15 minutes. We would literally sit down with one another and say "tell me about your feelings today". This exercise really opened a lot of emotional doors to intimacy that had remained closed because the two of us misunderstood one another's emotions.

Thanks, Mel!

Great advice, Door! Seems hard to get a man to do - talk about feelings every night, lol. I think that'd be great though.

This is great advice from DoormatNoMore! RAdical honesty DOES NOT apply to your snooping techniques.

True! I see it as part of earning trust back.

Hope you and your family have a Happy Thanksgiving. Hope you are keeping diligent on insuring "No Contact". I think getting him home gives you the best shot at a true recovery but it's no guarantee. Without NC...nothing is possible and if he messes up he should be aware that means you are likely done. You were in Plan A for far too long for you to have to endure a false recovery.

It does sound like you are in the hysterical bonding phase....which is good as it gets you through "no contact" but keep working those MB materials and holding him accountable to actually working a plan. Don't allow him idle time...keep him (and you both) moving forward and distracting each other by focusing on the Plan rather than your feelings. Both of your "feelings" will eventually follow your actions.

Again...NO CONTACT and FOCUS ON THE PLAN.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - I've been following along with some of the events over where you used to post (db) and it's pretty shocking. Dbmod had one of the most outrageous posts I've ever seen on a marital infidelity board telling a BH not to expose because "outing" his wife, though likely to end the affair, would make recovery impossible. Dbmod thought the BH should do nothing and merely "love" her back to the marriage. That was from a MOD. I was shocked. If you see anyone needing real help that is lost in that quagmire over there send them to us here. MB really is the best program on the internet and a desperate BS needs a program not a bunch of posters giving their own opinions and speaking nonsense to them. IMO, Betrayed Spouses don't need options they just need a plan that works and someone to tell them what best to do.

Mr. W,

You are VERY right about no contact. I cannot imagine working things through with H if he EVER contacted OW again. So far there has been none - not even a hint. We've been doing a great job of the 15-20 hours and meeting needs. You're right, however, that we still need to work the materials. Since things are going good right now it would be easy to think we don't need them but SOOOOOO not true. I do not want our marriage falling back into what it was previously because we failed to learn anything from this and just "got through" it. Quite frankly, I don't think I could work through a false recovery at this point either. Never say never, but I think I'd just be done.

We did have a great Thanksgiving! Hope you did also - as well as everyone else here on MB! Needless to say I was more thankful for my family than ever.

This morning I actually got an "I love you" from H which felt really good! He has been doing his absolute best at making me feel secure again in this relationship and to be appreciative of my efforts. I still am having moments when those little movies, doubts, and thoughts of OW still run through my head. I hate that I can recall so easily the things written between the two of them. Part of me wishes I'd never had to endure that but the other part knows if I would've just stuck my head in the sand, the affair would not only still be going on, but growing stronger.

Which leads me to the other "forum that shall not be named" lol. It is a complete and utter joke what those people are now advising over there! Can you believe that nonsense??? I feel so sorry for anyone over there who comes as a newcomer looking for real advice to deal with infidelity! It makes me cringe. Well, worse than that, it makes me sick because I know where that advice is going to lead those people! I can't lead anyone here any longer because I was BANNED for posting my story of how I dealt in my situation! Can you believe that? Shocked is an understatement of how I felt! I said nothing wrong...but you can't mention any kind of exposure or tough love there at all anymore. You can't use the words "Marriage Builders" or "Harley" or "tough love" or "Dobson" or anything else. Insane.

I agree that MB is THE best plan for not just surviving an affair, but working through it to a recovered marriage! People need real answers - real practical things they can do and not just a bunch of opinions. So glad I have all those tools at hand!

I have not gotten solid proof that my husband is having an affair but he already said something like this to our oldest son last weekend while I was away at a religious retreat with the other 2 older children. WH said "I need to talk to you about something and I feel you are old enough to understand it. As you may have noticed mom and dad are not getting along. I drive mom nuts and mom drives me nuts. I wanted you to know what is going on so you are prepared for what may happen in the future." I was PO'd at WH for talking to DS. WH is laying down the ground work (excuse trail) for him leaving. What WH doesn't know is what is coming his way. He really believes I won't tell anyone and he will just be able to leave after telling people we tried but it just didn't work.

I know exactly where you are at, LGLG! It is difficult to see your children being talked to and told these types of things. Just keep in mind that my H said those things and look where we are now...in recovery! Only because I was willing to take a hardline though, and not continue looking the other way while he continued on with OW! When you have the strength to feel the fear and face the issue head on, you have a real chance for change. It helped me so much to have the support of other people telling me I could do this! You're in a great place for that!

Sidenote:

I have to go out of town Friday for a funeral. My step-grandfather died on Friday. (He was 99!) I really don't want to go and leave the family and be away right now, but I'm planning on coming back Sat. night. It isn't that I think H is going to be tempted because I'm gone...but I just don't want to be apart right now! Is that stupid? We can't afford for us all to go so he's going to stay home with the boys.
_________________________

After a brief hiatus due to finals, Christmas activities, company in town, etc... I thought I would check back in.

The MB at home program is going very well for H and I. I see how much sense Harley's concepts make to rebuild a relationship. We are talking more openly and honestly than we ever have - throughout 20 years of marriage. I'm not going to say it is always easy, esp. when discussing feelings about the affair, but I am glad for the openness. Our relationship feels very genuine. It is very affectionate at the moment, which is good. I am looking for a little more passion from H - but I know I need to be a bit more patient in that regard. After seeing the efforts he made with OW, I want to see that for myself!

We've had some good conversations the last few days. We've been spending good, quality time together: meeting needs, avoiding LB's, etc...

One of our favorite activities has become driving around at night looking at Christmas lights in our town. I grab a blanket and a mug of hot chocolate, we turn on the Christmas radio station, and it's very nice. :-)

We've needed nudging here and there to continue the worksheets, but I am determined that we are not going to take any shortcuts!!!

I hope you all are having a very Merry Christmas season! I know I am - and I would not be here without the support of some very key people!

Yippee!! Glad to hear it!! You are a real trooper, SunnyD, and I am so proud of your progress.

and ummmmmmmmmmm, did you have to turn the A/C on to compensate for the blanket and hot chocolate??

Mel<----who had to turn the A/C back on yesterday because it is so warm!

LOL - I know!!!!! We didn't go last night but some of the nights we have gone have been cooler, so riding around with windows down, I needed a blankie! Plus, it's more cozy that way!

You're right though - I've got the A/C on today for sure! GEEZ!!!

Thanks for the encouragement. I really couldn't ask for it to go any better than it is at the moment in terms of progress. My birthday was last Friday and I was hoping for something a little more romantic and less family-oriented. That didn't go as I'd hoped but that has really been the only disappointment. (I had told him this pre-bday too.) However, instead of sulking like I would've done in the past, I expressed my feelings to H and we had a good discussion about it.

It made me smile when I saw him heading off to work this morning, workbook in hand!

OH - and by the way, Mel: in that discussion I mentioned that I wanted what I saw him give to OW in terms of romance/passion - through having read those emails between them. We then talked about how A's are more exciting because they're forbidden, etc... Then, I mentioned that's why I understand, even if I don't like, the fact that withdrawal does occur. H went on and on about wanting me to feel secure - and whatever I need to do to make sure there is NC. Well, in that discussion, he remarked that there is no possible way they would contact each other, even if it is natural to wonder how each other are doing. Why??? "Too much damage and harm to both families." HMMM.....Exposure brought all that to light! NO WAY that would be the case had I not exposed!

Yes, I know he was very angry at first with me, but the proof was in that statement: because of Exposure, the light was shone to kill the fantasy that their relationship was so great. They had to face what they had done to those around them and the hurt caused.

If anyone reads this and you are wondering about - or possibly regretting - exposure. I'm a testament: my H's affair ended 2 days after I exposed. Nothing else had ended it previously.

SD, you are a shining example of why and how exposure works. To your credit, you pushed through the FEAR and did it anyway. And today you reap the results.

As far as the love in your marriage, I want to tell you that if you stay on track, your H will feel the same romantic, passionate feelings for you. It wasn't the thrill of secrecy as much as it was her ability to meet certain needs and make him happy. You are in a UNIQUE position to do a much better job than she ever did. The feelings he had in his affair will some day SOON *PALE* in comparison. This is the truth and any WS in a recovered marriage here will attest to this.

Yep: I needed some hand-holding, but thankfully I had some help there!!!!

Your last statement gives me a lot of hope! No one wants to feel that they are a consolation prize and I certainly don't expect to be one or to have less than an exceptional marriage, complete with passion and romance!

Had a GREAT Christmas!!! It truly was a nice, affection-filled, happy home for H and I and our 3 incredible kids. H showed in many ways how genuinely thankful he is for our marriage and our family. We ended up getting not one, but TWO puppies for Christmas! lol SO cute and so sweet....white german shepherds. We had one years ago and I have been dying for another one. At first I wasn't sure about two! H and I discussed until we came to enthusiastic joint agreement, however. It will be good for us: we can take them to puppy training class together and they are even going to be part of our fitness routine: walking/running with them together.

The other upside to this is, I think the pups have helped H through his last bits of withdrawal perhaps. He has been much more affectionate towards me and happier in general since we got them. I know they cannot be a replacement for me meeting his needs or work on our relationship, but they do seem to have a positive effect.

I do have a question: I am still not sure what needs were being met by OW so that I can make sure to meet them. I honestly don't think H really knows either to put a finger on that. THe only thing I can come up with is that she probably made him feel younger and freer: she represented his youth and lack of responsibilities. I am unclear how to give him those feelings because I can't help that we have a household full of responsibilities! lol I do know I can do my best to share my burden so they aren't all on his shoulders alone, but I just can't say for sure what needs she met. That bothers me.

On the other hand, we are still working out the questionnaires. We've been doing them all along (at somewhat a slow pace with holidays and such) but I find we have to go back to them. In the beginning, it was too easy to not be able to find lovebusters, for instance, because we're both on our best behavior trying to make the other person feel good. Same thing on the needs side: we're both putting our best feet forward to ensure things go well. I know that's a good thing, but then - we're not identifying those unmet needs....

Well, I figure - work the program because the program works! As long as we keep on keeping on, we'll be fine.

Maintaining a marrige is puttting your best feet forward all the time. If your husband and your needs are being met, lb are not committed and the program is being worked then you are doing well. No need to focus on what en's the ow was meeting.

SD, so glad to hear you had a nice Christmas! I would leave skanyhola out of any discussions and focus on meeting the top 4 intimate needs. Being good at meeting those needs will do more to restore the passion than anything else. Focus on: conversation, affection, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment and BE SURE to get in 20+ hours of UA attention. You have a huge advantage over the STD ho in that you are together in person. She did not have that advantage. But the fact that he was addicted to her with only phone and email contact tells me the hook was conversation and maybe even admiration.

I would take the time for BOTH of you to read through the emotional needs so you understand them and then take the EN questionaires. But focus most of your attention on the 4 intimate EN's and getting 20+ hours of UA. <----that will do more to restore the passion than anything...

You're right, Sapphire. I guess I'm just still a bit insecure about H's need to go to OW in the first place. If I had a surefire list of what it was she fulfilled, then I could "make sure" those things are being covered. I suppose we all want a magic recipe but life doesn't tend to happen that way, does it?!

That "freedom" and "youth" is part of the fog. It's part of the descending lack of reality needed to create the environment and attraction for the A to happen.

I heard that line "I didn't have any obligation/responsibility with him" but it's utter bovine excrement. Obviously, there was enough obligation and responsibility to have sex and disrespect your marriage. There was enough obligation/responsibility to lie, and sneak, and steal.

It was, however, youthful. It was useful like drug use, or any other destructive behavior children take part in which only takes the "thrill" into consideration, and not the possible damage and injury it will cause to self or anyone close to them.

So, if feeling "young" is walking around with your head firmly lodged in your anal sphincter is a good feeling, I'd rather feel old.

Thanks, Mel!

I haven't brought up IdaHO (as I like to call her in my mind, hee hee) at all. We haven't even discussed many details of the A at all. I do have questions that pop up but quite frankly, I haven't wanted to discuss it much. H and I did talk about that. He is not unwilling to discuss the A, but he thinks it talking about it would do nothing but bring up hurt. I would press the issue more, but I don't really feel like discussing it either at this point. Having said that, I do know there is a good post I was directed to here on MB (by Jeff, I think...) about the reason it needs to be hashed out at some point, at least to some degree. I think it is mostly in "de-romanticizing" the whole affair.

Anyway, we have both been reading about the EN's and doing the workbook. We're both doing a good job at meeting those currently. Now, you did hit a good point: the 20 hours weren't there this past week - at least not just the two of us. We've had plenty of family hours in there but not 15-20 hours just us. Maybe that's part of my feeling a bit insecure at the moment! With Christmas, the focus has been on the family as a unit. We've had some alone time, of course, but part of that was even focused on the kids in the sense that we were Christmas shopping.

Thanks for the help! You always give great advice and both you and Sapphire hit it straight on!

HA HA! Well put, Triple H! Great points all around!

Sunny,

That would be "Joseph's Letter"...Not Jeff....

Here it is....



When I saw "Jeff", I figured you might need a bit of help....

Not

LOL @ IdaHO!!

Sunny, please get this part done ASAP. The faster you get your questions answered, the sooner you can move on. You simply need your questions answered to your satisfaction, no more, no less. He should not have any secrets with ho to which you are no privy. Don't wait on this part, because this can put you back to day 1 of recovery. He has to answer all of your questions to your satisfaction. It is not negotiable.

Thanks, Not! I was going to ask you when I wasn't able to find it under "Jeff" or look back to the suggested reference! lol. I can always count on you! :-)

Mel...you're right...asap. I promise! It hasn't been a big deal to me to this point because I don't have this pressing need to know things, but I feel it is good advice to get it done. SO... just another thing I need to push myself to take care of. You know I'm a good student so I will trust my mentors and make this a priority even if it doesn't feel like it needs to be at the moment. I guess it's hard to make yourself go back to that place of pain when you're feeling good about things. However, better now than later. I know for a fact it is not good to let things go unresolved.

Update: I reworked Joseph's letter to my situation and emailed H last week about discussing the A. He still was reluctant because of it bringing up hurt and pain, but we did discuss some thing willingly. (Just to note: he has been willing to do every single thing I have asked of him through recovery, like it or not.)

SO: I got some questions answered. Others have popped up since then. I do feel I have the right to discuss whatever I need to discuss. BUT...I also read that talking about the A is actually a lovebuster, withdrawing from BOTH spouses love banks. I wonder if at some point you just have to accept that you are always going to wonder more about the A. I truly do feel I can move on from it now. Yet, I don't want to feel like I have unanswered questions. Maybe I will always have some sort of unanswered questions.

THe one thing H and I discussed is that this may be one area where it would be good to go back and talk this over with the counselor we have seen. We haven't been going to counseling every week. We've been doing the MB at home program with great success. Our MC is very supportive of this and is enthusiastic about us completing this together. Maybe in this instant she could help us unearth whatever needs unearthing and say, "That's enough now leave it alone!" LOL

Other than that, things are still going well! I am sad the holidays are over: I will miss our special nights driving around looking at Christmas lights. We are honing our 15-20 hours a week to be more appropriate to use - meeting needs - rather than just because the program says we should spend that time together. H is very happy. I am very happy. Triggers are still an issue for me but I suspect they will be for quite some time.

I was told to watch for a surge of anger to come in the coming months. I can see that as a possibility. RIght now I have moments of anger - but they don't last long.

That I can say I was overjoyed to be ringing in the new year with H and H with me is nothing short of a miracle compared to the hell that was 2010!

Sunny, if you don't have all your questions answered to your satisfaction, you will stay stuck. That is why it is soooooooo sooooo important to get this done NOW so you can move on. If you don't know, you will continue to wonder. And you cannot build trust if he still has secrets with the skank to which you are not privy. It is best to get this done in one fell swoop if you can and then have a couple of follow up sessions. Get this done and then agree to not bring it up again.

But, this cannot be swept under the rug and it needs to be done NOW so you can move forward. His giving you the full truth is not negotiable. Nor is he in any position to tell you how much information you need or don't need. His discomfort is irrelevant. Only your comfort is relevant when it comes to getting the truth!

Call me if you need to discuss, friend! Happy New Year!!

I probably will give you a ring. :-) Happy New Year to you as well! I guess it is just a little confusing for me because H was willing - he's not trying to hide anything - but it is just difficult. I don't really want to hear any of it yet I know I can't remain stuck. To clarify: we did discuss the basics I wanted to know. I just don't want to keep going back if I should not. Does that make sense?

Anyway, D19 is right here so I will try and call later. I also want to know how much should be discussed between H and the kids about all of this. Naturally, he doesn't want to discuss it with them either and maybe he's right. I don't think they want to discuss it, but just want to ensure that as a whole, we can heal as a family.

Hey Sunny,

Quick post but I think it should very likely be discussed to some extent with the children. They likely need further reassurances that it had NOTHING to do with them or the stress that any individual child put upon him or the marriage that had any effect on his choice to commit adultery.

Children are so very self-centered that each one...somewhere in their immature minds takes an inventory of what they may or may not have done that contributed to the potential demise of your marriage.

They need reassurances

AND

They need modeling of appropriate behavior from each of you. How to respond as a betrayed spouse and how to respond as a wayward spouse. Modeling repentance and forgiveness. This is a GIFT you can BOTH give your children. Don't miss out on this opportunity by being embarrassed and ashamed. Show them how loving mature God-fearing adults behave.

Just my quick opinion.

Mr. Wondering

Thanks, Mr. W! Great advice!

Tomorrow is H and I's anniversary. I'm very excited about it! At first, I had my expectations set a bit unrealistically. I thought H might take the opportunity to sweep me off my feet, by me a new wedding ring to signify our new commitment, tell me how I'm the best thing since sliced bread, and...well....you get the picture.

Long story short: I truly DO want a new ring. Lost mine years ago and been wearing my grandma's ring I inherited every since, and it really isn't my style. It isn't about having anything ultra-expensive either. I just want something that is for ME, from my husband, to mean what a wedding ring is supposed to mean.

I debated whether or not I should blatantly tell him, get me a ring! I had a problem with that because I wanted him to WANT to do it. He knows I've been wanting a new one for awhile. Then I asked myself what the hurry was. I decided it was because I was putting too much significance on the ring. The ring, in my mind, was more of a symbol right now of everything being "right...back to normal." Then I thought about how I don't want things "back to normal" and that it is just going to take time to be totally healed - not a ring.

Yes, I want a nice, romantic anniversary. Yes, I want a new ring. No, I'm not going to expect H to read my mind to know what I want. I decided - with the help of some good advice - that I can tell him what it is I want and why I want it, but that I want it when HE wants it too. I mean, come on - when you get engaged does the woman tell her man he better go out and buy a ring and propose? Of course not. But, she can tell him that she wants marriage one day... So, tomorrow is going to be about dreaming what we each want our relationship to look like in the future. No pressure of a ring. I only care that we make it a day about us.

SO: any suggestions on something I could get him that would be special and not a fortune??? With my original ring idea, it was going to be about us going together to pick out new, matching rings for both of us.... but, since I'm taking that off the table, I need something else. I want to get something meaningful, not just a gift for a gift's sake!

Since it's been over 2 weeks since I last posted I thought I'd add a little update.

Things are still going well in the recovery dept. H and I have discussed some of the things that went wrong in our marriage before and how much nicer things are now that we are doing things in a healthier manner!

I can see why Marriage Builders stresses the 15-20 hours a week of undivided time together. It really does lead to more closeness! H and I have enjoyed doing some new things together as well as some of our old favorites. We're really enjoying the new furry kids (our 2 white german shepherd puppies) and training them together. It's nice as it provides laughter as well as exercise, since we walk/run them together.

I do find myself still having bouts of anger or hurt. Sometimes it just pops up out of the blue for seemingly no reason and I'm mad or sad. Since we already discussed things previously, I don't see a whole lot of need to have a big discussion with H about it. He seems to read my body language or whatnot and provides me with the support I need when that happens. (Well, if he's home when it happens.) With classes having started back up, I think it's good for me: I'm so busy studying that other things besides the A and OW rule my brain! I'm taking 3 classes this semester. Adding that to my wife and mother duties and it's a pretty full load.

One thing that is still difficult for me to deal with: I HATE how much effort that H put into the A with IdaHO and I still find myself "comparing" to see if he's putting that kind of effort in with me. I know that isn't healthy, but it makes me angry! When seeking out that relationship (and I use that term loosely) here he was - jogging every night, dressing nice, working on his appearance, eating healthy, all the usual stuff. Now that the A is over and we are in recovery, does he do any of these things? No - not really. He's put back on the A weight he lost, doesn't seem the need to dress nice or wear the cologne I got him for Christmas, doesn't always shave....stuff like that. It makes me feel that I am somehow less worthy in his eyes than OW. This is definitely something I need to address in our "meeting needs" area... Right??? We're still keeping up with things but did get off track for about 10 days. (After my last post I got really sick - it was awful.)

Having said that, I know it is somewhat normal to relax your standards once normality has set back in. Don't get me wrong - he's not being a total slob or not caring at all, but not nearly to the degree as when in A mode. It isn't like I'm not attracted to him as is - I am. However, knowing your spouse went to such lengths to make himself better for someone else is pretty hard to swallow.

We're doing well at eliminating love busters and meeting needs thus far. Physically things have slowed down a bit from the "hysterical bonding" period but it's still 3-4 times a week so no complaints there.

H tells me he loves me without me prompting it, but not nearly as frequently as he used to - pre-affair. I guess this will come with time? His actions show that he does so I'm not feeling insecure about it, just used to hearing it more frequently after all these years.

Hi Sunny!! Sorry to hear you were sick..


As long as he is doing what is necessary to make himself attractive to you, he is doing fine. You can't compare the things he did in a fantasy affair for a person who didn't really care very much for him. Their relationship was very superficial and based on a fantasy. Yours is not.


I would jump to the radical honesty lesson and start telling him this stuff. He needs to be told what you need in order to feel loved.

Thanks for the update, Sunny!

Thanks for the update.

Glad some things are changing, but do tell him your concerns, as you're one hot mama now, and he's slouching a bit!

Best wishes to you both

Thanks for the support, Mel, MW, and Peach!

I am so busy these days with classes, MBing, and being a mom and new puppy owner that it's hard to find time for the forum but it really does help me!

I know there are people hurting and in a lot more pain than I am in right now so I feel a bit guilty asking for advice, yet I know that not asking for it is not good either. Don't want to end up back in bad marriage mode!

You guys are right that I need to be more open with him. Radical honesty means just that and I have to be willing to provide it if I want to receive it.

H IS putting a lot of effort into marriage recovery, so I need to remember to give him credit for that. I do wish he would put more in the PA dept. I realize now my expectations are higher in that area than they used to be and that's OK. I expect more of myself as well so I don't feel there's anything wrong with it. I don't think H needs to be going full out all the time, but I would at least like him to care about it. I know he likes it when I look good, so it is a reciprocal thing. I guess for me it is about him wanting to do it for me as well as the way he actually looks. Is that bad??? LOL

Mel: I will call you tomorrow if you're around. Been meaning to catch up then got sick, then busy, etc...

Sounds great!

Open and Honest. It's a good thing.

Why are you afraid of asking for what you need?

I'm not afraid of it, really. It's more about timing. My understanding was that it would take awhile for H to go through withdrawal and to be patient and let time and the MB program (the hours together, etc...) work their magic. One of my faults is trying to hard to make things happen rather than let things happen. Does that make sense? Normally, it's not wrong to want to make things happen. However, trying to force recovery without going through the process is just short-changing the system and you just can't do it.

SO...I was trying not to expect too much too soon and not to push/pursue before the time was right.

The way I see it - recovery has to be as much about building the attraction up again as much as just going through the steps. I figured if I came across as demanding, the attraction level certainly wouldn't rise!

Hi Sunny! Just wanted to tell you that you're doing great! So much better than I did when we first started recovery (of course I didn't find MB until way later). Remember recovery is not a sprint, it's a marathon. It seems like your FWH is really trying and that's a good thing!

As far as the attraction thing? Could WH be going through some of his own stuff-- withdrawal, sadness because of what he's done to you, what that says about him, etc.? It's hard to worry about your looks when you're depressed (not saying that he is, just a thought). Maybe he's afraid to express his own pain. I know my DH just hated sharing his thoughts and hurts at first because he didn't want to hurt me all over again. Anyway, I could be totally off base but I thought I'd just suggest this.

In the meantime, patience my dear, the rest will come if you continue to follow the MB plans.

Thanks, Princess!

I think you could possibly be right about the possible depression and such. I hadn't thought of that but it does seem a likely culprit. A lot of the time he seems good but there are moments that I think about it: in a movie, or a song, or church - if something is mentioned in the, "I'm loved but don't deserve it" department... he always reaches over and squeezes my arm or takes my hand. He won't talk about it - hates sharing those kinds of things too.

As for following the plan and having patience - you are right on target, of course!

Friday night we got into our first real tiff since recovery. It was about what we were going to do yesterday as we had planned to have a special day and evening out for the two of us. Now why would we fight over that? Well, because I had expected one thing and prepared for it. He planned for something totally different. I know one would automatically think, "OK: they needed to get on the same page before planning and not be expecting the other to know what they were thinking..." Normally I would said that was right. However, I had specifically told him what I wanted several weeks ago. I bought a new purple (his favorite color) cocktail dress. He went shoe shopping with me to get shoes for the dress! Friday I even sent him pics of jewelry I was picking out to go with it for heaven's sake. I emailed him some ideas of where to go to dinner - some fancy places I'd been wanting to try. We haven't done fancy much these fast few years.

SO...what happened? He emailed me the place where he wanted us to go spend the night Sat. night. Uh....it was not what I was expecting and an 2 hours in the opposite direction of any of the places I'd been thinking. It was in some small town - just rental houses - not even that nice and certainly no where to go to dinner and wear a cocktail dress!

I told him when he got home as gently as I could how I felt. I didn't understand his choice. I didn't want to commit a LB by being disrespectful, so I was careful not to put down his choice but to explain my feelings. This went right along with my previous feelings, of course, that he was not putting in the "effort" in this area. Do you think he would've taken IdaHO to some place like this??? Heck no! Is there anything wrong with where he wanted to go? NO....not in the right context but certainly not a romantic and special evening.

Anyway, despite my best efforts of being true to my feelings and needs and not putting him or his choice down - he got upset. I got upset too because at the core of this was me feeling he didn't want this romantic evening with me. I let him know I DID appreciate al his efforts in our marriage.

I didn't bring up any thoughts or comparisons of, "This isn't the type of place you took OW," but I did mention that I KNEW he could be romantic because I had plenty of records playing in my head.

And before anyone things I am being high maintenance and expecting too much - this is a man that makes a darn good living and I never have asked for anything for myself. I don't ask for expensive jewelry or cars or anything like that.

SO: the final result... thanks to MB our fight was MUCH more productive than it ever would have been in the past! There wasn't emotional outburts - but there were tears, but not in a poor me way. We worked through it fairly quickly compared to how things used to be: no avoiding, no withdrawing - honesty!

In the end, neither of us wanted to do the original plans we had in mind. It would've seen tainted somehow to do what he wanted or what I wanted, quite frankly. SO....we ended up doing something we both wanted to do. We went shopping and picked out new wedding rings then went to dinner! :-) We stayed at home. Decided we would do the "fancy" night out for Valentine's. I ain't wasting that dress! LOL

POJA is cool!

That is awesome!! You know what stands out to me the most? He is agreeing to things he does not want to do, isn't he? ugh...

Do you mean the Valentines night out? It wasn't that he didn't want the fancy dinner, etc... I didn't go into specifics of our Friday night discussion but he was not against that at all. He was just viewing it differently - that it was more cliche than us doing something more unique and just being together.

I made it clear that I don't want him doing anything to "just make me happy" because it wouldn't mean a thing to me if he didn't want to do it as well. He convinced me he definitely does. He didn't put 2 and 2 together that I wouldn't want to wear a fancy dress out just to go to the "usual" places like Outback or Carrabbas, lol

I definitely want POJA on this and everything else! Clark is right...it's cool! I explained to H that it was nice that he was willing to do things just to make me happy but in the long run, what is best for US is us doing things together that we BOTH want. He agrees!

The new rings were also a POJA thing. We discussed it weeks ago for our anniversary and started looking. At first I thought he didn't want it - and I didn't want to push it. Turns out he wanted it as well but was concerned about hours at work at the time and didn't want to spend a lot of money at the time. I explained (on our anniversary) that I didn't need anything fancy - it didn't need to be a lot of money. He said it was important to him that I have something nice. We agreed it didn't need to be extravagant. Anyway, he got VERY into the whole thing and we've spent as much time looking at his as mine! :-) He's very happy with the ones we've picked out: his is very unique as is mine. They go well together and they pay homage to our original rings but are special. So, they are very symbolic: the past is represented but it's also new and different: thus signifying our many years together but looking to the future in our new marriage. :-)

I just wanted to emphasize something that Princess alluded to above. I am SO grateful for the MB program! I think it would be so easy once the big crisis is over and you're reconciled to just let things be. However, I don't believe that would be healthy at all. I see others who do save their marriages yet aren't every really "recovered" in the sense that they are living with marriages that are not satisfying. I don't believe once a week marriage counseling would bring that either. What MB offers are practical ways that are very specific (even if not always easy) to bring about a relationship that is not just "saved" but becomes exceptional!

I have read more books on relationships than I know what to do with at this point. I've done a lot of research because my intent (I'm back in school full time to finish my degree) was to become a family therapist. Now I'm not so sure: I'm unhappy with our system in that sense. Don't get me wrong - a good counselor is fine but it's better to replace bad habits with good ones rather than just talk about the bad habits! That's what MB offers.

In 20 years H and I never did the things that we are now doing. Who knew he liked going shopping with me to pick out outfits and shoes, for instance. He likes having a say in what I wear - not to be controlling, but it ups his attraction for me. You know what? It also helps me know he IS interested and then I am more motivated. I now even understand why he likes playing XBox with the boys since I've played with him some, fulfilling recreational needs. Is POJA always easy? Is radical honesty always easy? No.... but worth it.

Anyway, I just wanted to say it truly is life changing.

A bit of a precarious evening last night - not with H and I but H and S16 (17 in a few weeks). S15, H, and I went shopping and to dinner and picked S17 up from a church thing he had. After S17 got in the car, he started talking about some things he'd gotten out of the lesson he'd heard. Well, H kinda blasted what he was saying. I know he didn't think he was blasting S17, just stating his opinion, but I know how S17 felt. He took it personally. I know because it is one of my top LB's of H's: he speaks very arrogantly and with "disrespectful judgment" at times. Even S15 said, "And you think I'M argumentative and literal at times!"

S17 stormed upstairs when we got home. H made no attempt at talking with S17, which is bothering me this morning. Last night I didn't say a whole to H except that I knew what he was saying but at the same time, how you say something counts. He expressed to me that he just wants S17 to think for himself and not just be a "sheep" willing to follow whatever. I agree with that. However, it wasn't about that really. I dropped it because I felt we had a good discussion about it. This morning, I feel it needs a little more exploration.

S17 told me this morning before school that he was REALLY mad and that H had no business advising him on spiritual matters after what he did - having an affair, leaving the family. He has forgiven him, he said, but that doesn't mean the respect has been restored. (I'm paraphrasing, of course.)

After my discussion with S17, I got to thinking: this is deeper than what I thought last night. I feel H may resent S17 for "taking my side" of things and judging him. Well....too bad! He was taking the side of right - the side FOR his family - not against his dad at the time.

My question now becomes what to do. Do I stay out of this and let the two of them work this out? Do I call a family meeting? Do I get a counselor involved?

The MB program is going great for H and I but clearly, there's some work to be done with H and the kids. Quite frankly, I believe deep down H blames me for their turning against him... with my exposing to them, etc... (Again, too bad!) I'm not sure he's over that yet, even though it was part of what brought him home.

Just my initial thought...

Interesting how HONESTY (you exposing the truth about their father's affair to your children) has actually helped your son(s) become more critical thinkers and less like sheeples willing to follow whatever (including their father...who is less than superhuman now)

Again...the lessons your children are learning about sin, adultery, forgiveness and repentance (and how you and your husband go about it) are FAR and AWAY more beneficial than the lessons of lying, harboring secrets and sweeping things under rugs (or into the family secret closet).

Your husband has lost a lot of their respect. That is a consequence of HIS actions (not your exposure). Part of repentance is his embracing of that. He needs to understand and accept the NATURAL consequences of his actions and even repent to his children (whom he also harmed). I don't know if he's capable of it yet or not but he COULD apologize to Son(17), ask for his forgiveness again and tell him that he's actually proud of him for sticking up for his thoughts and beliefs last night. Tell son he was actually pressuring him on his beliefs to see if they were his or just parroting others and apparently, in doing so, he learned that son was fighting back against him because he was applying critical thinking skills (as in, what right do you dad as an adulterer have to questions my religious beliefs).

I don't know...he'll take the conversation from there but it's a wonderful lesson opportunity for both son and husband (who perhaps needs to also realize he's on very new ground here with nearly adult children AND having fallen from grace very recently in their eyes and his own....we are all learning our entire lives....mistakes are to be expected.)

Mr. Wondering

Thanks, Mr. W! Some very good thoughts and ideas. I've been gone all day and haven't had any time yet to delve into this further. I'm glad I read this before I did as your suggestions for discussion are very good and a way to approach it so that both S17 and H should "get". :-)

Right now they are watching a basketball game on tv together so I'm glad they are not avoiding each other because of last night. At the same time, I DON'T feel it should be swept under the rug! S15 mentioned it to me this afternoon, so I know it is still on his mind as well. He said, "I almost said...Well, dad, what about what YOU did and thought it would be too awkward."

Not much new to report. Conversations with one and all went well. It is still a work in progress, but everyone is doing the work so we'll make the progress!

Here's the thing: With all the MB tools at hand, you get a nice step-by-step guide to gaining a good marriage out of all this trauma. I wish there was a step-by-step guide to healing the kids as well. I know the focus has to be the marriage first and foremost, but it is difficult to always know what to do with the kids. When they are older, like mine, and know about the affair and had such strong opinions, how do you reconcile that? It's a tough job: you can use some of the MB tools but a parent still has to parent. I know it just takes time rebuild the trust back. Who knows: maybe one day the Harley's will write a guide for the FWS and kids! (hint, hint!)

SO.. It has been 3 months since H and I started the rebuilding process. I feel very good about things. I am at the point where I know we are going to make it and don't feel there is an ounce of withdrawal left in H. There has been 0 contact with OW since the affair was busted. H has complied with every request. We're doing the work. I'm still afraid of getting lazy and letting things slide, but that's not such a bad thing: it's good to be concerned with that to ensure you stay on your toes! I am not afraid at all that this is a false recovery. That's a great feeling! H shows complete interest in me - in our family - and I feel we are doing a good job of meeting ENs!

SOOOO...at this point, I'm wondering: should my thread be moved to a recovery forum? Is it better for it to stay here? Or, perhaps, should I start a new thread in the recovery area?

What the heck is wrong with me?!!!

Everything has been so positive lately. So, of course, I have to find something to make myself feel bad - right? H had to go to work this morning because he needed to take care of some things at the office this weekend while he could have all the equipment down without affecting anyone else. (He's an engineer.) So, of course, after purusing the boards here for a bit, I went on facebook. Then, I went on my alternate facebook account that I set up during the crisis. (I set one up with my Sunny name so others from the boards could find me on the alt - without being attached to my real name since the kids and H were, of course, friends on my main FB page.) Anyway, so what do I get a wild hair to do? Check OW's page. She blocked me on my regular page - which is fine by me! Now, I didn't find anything there to be upset about, but just seeing her picture makes me want to vomit and gets me all upset again! WHY did I feel the need to do that?!

It's been 4 months since the affair ended. No more signs of withdrawal with H. I was good about confirming NC on my end for several months, then some of that dropped off because I no longer felt the need once I saw H's actions not straying from being committed. I have absolutely no reason to feel he is in contact with her. Part of me is curious as to what is happening in her marriage - if they truly hashed things out and are recovering as well or if she managed to talk her way out of it. (I never talked with her husband - just his brother and sis-in-law.) They never got back to me after last contact and let me know what happened on that end. I am 99% sure they would not respond if I contacted them to ask. They truly wanted out of it but did promise to maintain their end of the bargain: to actively seek for any contact on that end. OWH was supposed to contact me but never did.

Why am I concerned about this? I don't know - I really don't. I guess there is a sliver in me that wonders if her marriage tanks if she will try getting back with H. And while I am not truly concerned about H's reaction to that, that thought did cross my mind as I looked at her site. There sure is nothing on there that indicates that she is happily married. Yeah - I know: I can't worry about that. My job is to ensure my own happiness and work on my own incredible marriage.

Anyway, I just can't believe I succumbed to curiousity to go look and make myself feel badly by drudging up those memories - esp. when the triggers have waned so much lately! I couldn't leave well enough alone.

I guess it is wise to be on your guard to ensure no backsliding. You do have to take steps for awhile to keep the FWS honest...but for how long? Should I stop checking up now???

For the most part, I have a lot more good days than bad lately. I am starting to have moments of anger flare up and I know that's normal. Where it used to be hurt, it's now anger. It doesn't last long - very fleeting - but obviously that kind of thing probably never goes away.

I need to discuss this with H I suppose. I don't really want to because it means admitting to my own stupidity of doing something that put me back in that mental place again - but it is what it is!

UGH.

I don't know...you are only a couple of months out so checking on the OW is expected and normal.

On one hand it's unhealthy for you to keep checking but on the other...she is still a recent enemy of your marriage and keeping one eye open isn't the worst thing to do...IMO.


Don't tell your husband...it's still too early. I waited well over a year to tell my wife that her mother and I plotted and schemed to get her OM to secretly dump her as well as about other snooping things I did (which she, at that time fully appreciated EVERYTHING I did to fight for our marriage). Your BH should still be quite foggy...don't trigger him nor purposely place any thoughts of OW in it. He may get the notion that if you can look at her facebook page than so can he...as if "no contact" applies to both of you and YOU broke some deal. Who knows...just keep it to yourself for now. Radical Honesty is for a fully recovered marriage and even then, some snooping is encouraged.

Mr. Wondering

I'm glad you said that, MW, because after I wrote that I wondered if I should tell him at this time. It IS still early and I don't want to give up my weapons just yet! Plus, I know that talking too much about the A or OW can just make the former wayward think whistfully back at worst or be a LB at best.

The way I have coped with it this afternoon is to try to turn my thoughts back to positive: I did my nails and hair - and ordered a book on spicing things up! SO, you know - trying to turn lemons into lemonade! lol

A quick check in since it's been awhile since I last posted. This last month has just flown by. I've been so swamped with school work of my own and things with the kids. H and I are doing well. I feel like we are letting ourselves get back into some old ruts though. It isn't that we are committing major lovebusters, but we haven't been doing as well with the 15 hours a week and such. I know this is probably more my fault that H's because I've been studying so much. Well, he's had a crazy work schedule as well. We've simply got to go back to making it priority #1.

I guess I'm a bit fearful of letting things slide. That's not such a bad thing - keeps you on your toes!

My brother is coming in town on business. Haven't seen him for a year and 1/2. I can tell H is not excited about it and I can understand. It's going to be hard for him to face my brother knowing that he knows about the A. Well - tough, I say! Actions have consequences. My brother is one of the most upstanding people you could ever meet. He is as forgiving as it gets. He will treat H just fine and I will do my best to make H comfortable. However, he's got to man up and face this. I get the feeling he is going to try to "have to work" or something, to get out of seeing him. I feel I can't let that happen. Whether it's now or later, he's got to face that initial contact with my brother.

Any suggestions?

Don't be referee between them?

Good idea. Well, except knowing the two of them, they'll just not even discuss it and act like it never happened. I'm not sure that's any better than fighting about it, but the men in my life are not talkers, that's for sure. (Probably not many are, lol)

Can't believe it's been 5 months since you last updated. Hope all is continuing to go well with your recovery.

Mr. Wondering

Thank the Lord you listened to us here on MB. Who the heck would ever advocate maintaining/prolonging a separation despite a seemingly willing and contrite spouse in an effort to save a marriage? This is where folk wisdom gets crushed by the professional guidance/coaching plan that Dr. Harley gives away here at MB. The difference between MB and other plans is in the effectiveness of the minute details as implemented and not as discussed in some philosophical discussion.

This semi-old thread I stumbled upon is a great example of how well exposure, followed by a firm boundary (she kicked him out) followed by graciousness work (she took a risk and let him come back home because you can't work on a marriage separated). In about a month MB helped HER save her marriage and family.

If sunny were a betrayed husband with children that got "his" WW to move out to an apartment or hotel I'd have been much more hesitant to advising/coaching "him" to allow his wife to move back home so quickly as that may jeopardize "his" custody case and ability to go to Plan B (unlike sunny, "he'd never be able to get "her" back out again and I'd speculate that "her" attorney advised "her" to move back home whereas it's safe to say Mr. SunnyDix wasn't "coming home" as part of some custody divorce battle strategy).

Lots of nuances in these battles against infidelity.

Anyway...come back and give us an update Sunny...last I heard things were pretty great with your recovery. Aren't you working the Harley workbooks? How's that going?

Peace,
Mr. Wondering

Hi Mr.W!

Thanks for inquiring about my situation, etc... I guess I stopped popping in because I wasn't getting much response. All the things you've pointed out - yes, I think it was definitely the right way to go and I'm glad I had people and a specific program to point the way.

Things are going VERY well in recovery still! It's hard to believe that we are now 9 months in and I believe our marriage is better than it's been in years...maybe even ever. Mr. Sunny and I have talked several times this week about how good it feels to be working on the same team in things - whether with parenting, finances, our relationship, you name it. He's the first person I want to share things with and vice versa.

We're still doing the workbooks. In fact, tonight is one of our "workbook sessions". We have instituted not only a weekly date night, but family night as well. I wish D19 could be home for those - but being away at college, she isn't. It's been great though for our sons in terms of regaining that relationship with their dad.

I will tell you that I still struggle with triggers, sometimes very badly even - but not often. I know it's normal but it throws me for a loop at times. I also struggle as to when to share them with H and how - because I know every time it comes up, it's a LB.

I worry about us getting complacent and letting things backslide. So far that hasn't happened. I don't want to always feel like I have to be "on watch" but I think it's just one of those things that A: take time and B: is a good reminder of continuously making our marriage a priority.

I AM glad I listened!

This is all great, Sunny! Glad to hear things are moving along in your recovery!

Have you considered starting a thread in the Recovered forum? Your posts would be very inspiring for other posters to read. For that matter, they would be inspiring to posters on the SAA forum - ending your H's A was good work, as I recall.

Thanks, MB - it was pretty good work all things considered. Work I never care to repeat, mind you!

We are doing some of the worksheets again as I just felt we are now in a more normal state of things and I want to make sure we cover all basis. During the honeymoon phase of recovery we both did the worksheets with the knowledge that things that occurred (LBs, DJs, AOs, etc...) during the "crisis time" while H was involved with OW were not typically how things were. How we were, as a couple, pre-crisis was not how we are now. I think we're doing a good job, but I want to make sure we are not letting LBs go or letting needs go unmet because we are both content right now.

I don't know - I think it may be the PTSD still with me that wants to cover all bases - but better to cover them than not!

I never considered doing a thread in recovery because I didn't seem to be getting a lot of responses on here so I didn't think there was much interest. However, I would certainly be glad to do so.

I will say this: if anyone is afraid of holding a WS accountable, exposing an affair, etc... you should truly feel the fear and do it anyway. Do it right - do it with dignity - but do it.

Wow...

So glad to see you again. I thought you were gone and wanted to be sure that if you even glanced in here you'd notice people were still thinking about you.

Thank you for the update and so thankful that things are going well for you, your husband and family.

I, too, think a recovery thread would be great. Lots of people either break up an affair here on MB with exposure and what not and lots of people use the MB program to rebuild their marriages when they show up AFTER an affair but not that many wives arrive here (or anywhere on the internet) with your situation, use the program to expose an seeming undying affair, kicked out their husband ...and have the affair end a few days later and then have their husband immediately participate in a recovery program and have their marriage thrive using the program. There are a few around here but unfortunately not a ton (most move on at some point in the process or have a tough time getting their wayward husband on board...wayward husband tend to want to sweep things under the rug and have their wives just thankful they came home...like they did them a favor). How did you really achieve getting him on board and not just for a few weeks but it's now 9 months????

Anyway...I recalled that you were in school (how's that going?) and considered becoming a marriage counselor at some point in the future yourself. I thought you really would benefit from coming back here and participating. Infidelity survivors like yourself tend to post here with lots of hope and don't ever get chastised for doing so. MB is a safe place for "hope".

I also wanted to let you know about Dr. Harley's book he just published in 2010 for counselors to learn his processes. It's called "Effective Marriage Counseling" and if you can't borrow it from our mutual friend, it's available at this website's bookstore at $15 or simply get a used copy for as low as $6.02 at Alibrus link

Welcome back,

Mr. Wondering

OK...I'll do a thread in Recovery, soon!

School is going well! I'll have you know that in each of my classes I've had the top average in each class.

Thank you for book recommendation as I'd like to read it. I've been trying to decide if I want to stick with the MC career choice or major in Communications and go another way. I'm a bit jaded about the MC profession as so many get it wrong! I wonder if I would be wasting my time, beating my head against a wall, trying to help people who are too afraid of doing what they really need to do in their marriages. The time is coming when I'm going to have to decide though - and soon! lol

As for how I got Mr. Sunny on board with recovery, I'm not sure there's one answer. It's the culmination of things: tough love mixed with forgiveness and grace. If he had treated it like I was lucky he was coming back, I wouldn't have let him. Once he was back, if I had treated him like I was standing there, whip in hand, barking at him at every turn, he would've resisted the MB efforts.

I can post about it more specifically later (perhaps in my new Recovery thread) but basically - he is willing to do anything I ask in recovery because he knows everything I ask if not just for "us" as a couple, but ensures his happiness as well. He knows my true desire is for him to be happy and that he is loved. I also know that his true desire is my happiness and to feel secure again. Because we know that, we're willing to do what it takes towards our ultimate goal - a great marriage. It's not a tit for tat thing: it's knowing the hurt you've caused, being willing to atone for it while the faithful spouse gives forgiveness and allows for the spouse to feel respected again, and worthy of admiration and appreciation.

Don't worry so much about responses right now. MB has around 300,000 unique users coming through here each and every month and about 250 new registered posters every month. We just passed 62,000 registered users many of whom stop by from time to time. Success stories get huge play and things here get read and the messages of "hope" are being delivered and received. The posts that DO get made are thoughtful and insightful and generally not off-topic banter about a bunch of nothing. Waywardism is not tolerated here and waywardism, if you read enough forums, drives up post counts dramatically (waywards love a distraction and here themselves talk). Also, MB doesn't have a true dating forum where single people mingle endlessly. There are also no private messages here on MB fueling a hidden gossip machine and stirring up anxieties and adding to the "post count". Don't get me wrong, post count is nice but post content is SOOO much more important to a forum. Finally, MB is much more specific than some general marriage forum like talk about marriage dot com. Sure the program can be used by anyone but generally people come here and post that are in crisis situations or the very end of their ropes. You can truly make a difference here and won't get drowned out by some internet guru who thinks dating while married is the best way to wake up a wayward.


As you may be aware, the board has recently gone through a transition where a group of waywards were called out for simply using this place as their personal chat rooms and drowning out all the other voices with their constant pot stirring, criticism and judgmentalism. It was endless battles over religion, feminism, politics, masculinity, who deserved recovery, who didn't, who the real men are and aren't, manning up, whether waywards should have a voice and were entitled to "free speech", whether OM/OW's are people too, whether waywards are really just walk away spouse not really responsible for their choices and the consequences of those choices, whether dating while married is a good idea...all arguments and debates that distracted from the true goal of REALLY helping people learn MB (the sign on the door) that arrived here in whatever crisis condition they arrived. The trolls and waywards that knew little or nothing of MB have since moved on and the "dating while married" group were banned from here years before that.

Anyway...MB is now, once again, finding it's true voice and we'd much appreciate having your MB success story and your voice included in that process. You can truly make a significant impact here as a LEADER. Email my wife and I at the address below and we can explain more.

Mr. Wondering

ITA. I've seen so many comments from posters who have indicated that they have lurked for a long time before they decided to post. If you look at the number of views on any given post, you'll see a lot of views without comment.

Your words will definitely be read and will be absorbed by posters who are desperate to read about successful recovery of a marriage damaged by adultery. They need hope and encouragement - success stories give them that.

Funny...Dr. Harley says the same thing and he just doesn't mess around. In the book I recommended he basically tells couples not to waste his time and their money if they won't do what he tells them to do. He's a hard nosed COACH...not a counselor who's going to sit there and let them naval-gaze all day about their family of origin issues or take 3-5 sessions of "in-take" information where he basically listens endlessly to assess the problem. He starts "coaching" immediately and finds it so satisfying that he divested himself of 32 mental health clinics in Minnesota so he could focus singularly on THIS passion.

Maybe this book will help you decide.


I think this forum (over and above other forum) may influence you as well. There is a lot more satisfaction over telling someone to do something and to see it work FOR THEM than sitting back and trying to "counsel" answers out of people. There is a thrill in situations such as yours where I saw people telling you in mid-November 2010 to make your husband wait until the new year before allowing him to move home, my knowing what Dr. Harley would tell you to do, and peer coaching you to do what Dr. Harley (a true doctor and professional) would tell you. To have you listen to me and have it work for you is tremendously gratifying. Ultimately YOU (and your husband) saved your marriage. A lot of other advice from others was helpful (or even more helpful) along the way. But I think I participated in your individual decision making process and helped COACH you to the right answer. It still could have backfired...and assessing your strength was important but ultimately it was the right decision and I'm proud of making the suggestion, pleased with MB for teaching me what to coach and very pleased you implemented the suggestion [and it worked].

Maybe you could write a book (or master's thesis)..."How the Internet Helped ME Save My Marriage: A Couple's Journey through Recovery on the Web"

Mr. Wondering

Hmmmm..... I'm getting ready to go out on a hot date so not a lot of time to write, but some very intriguing points made, all around.

I absolutely love your book/thesis idea!

I also love what you had to say about being a marriage "coach" rather than a MC...and internet gurus...and all of that.

And yes, it could've been risky to have my H move home when he did, but it made sense: how were we supposed to focus on each other and rebuild romantic love living apart? Not to mention through getting through withdrawal and feeling secure. Sure, the month he was out was good - to help him realize what he was facing on his own, without his family. But once the commitment to reconciliation was made, you have to do it 100%.

Recovery story posted!

Here: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538986#Post2538986