Marriage Builders
I am new here. I am a WW. I read "Surviving an Affair" and really identified with Sue. I am so lost. I had a PA with a coworker for over 2 years. His wife discovered it and he sent me a NC letter a few days later. We have since talked and are back in an EA.

I still have deep feelings for OM - this is the "fog". However, I have no feelings for BH. And the thought of trying to fix things with him depresses me so much. I am literally sick when I think of talking or getting close to him. He doesn't know my needs because I haven't told him. But I don't want him to try because I don't think he'll be able to meet them the way I want them met and I am not attracted to him at all right now. Yes, I am being selfish, but shouldn't I be selfish about getting my needs met the way I want them?

Logically, I understand the whole program in MB, but I just can't bring myself to do it. I don't feel anything for BH other than a sense of responsibility. No physical attraction or desire to want to connect with him. Can MB make a passionate marriage out of 2 strangers?

I know I should be willing and enthusiastic to do whatever it takes to rebuild my M. But I really don't want to. Love bank is all fine and well, but (in my current state) I just don't believe how we could ever get that balance restored when my heart just isn't in it.

I just want to be happy and be excited about my future.

I realize it could be the addiction/fog telling me OM and I could be very happy, but it feels so real. He and I aren't bad people. We made a mistake and now have to deal with the consquences of it. Problem is, we fell in love. Now what? How do I know if my marriage will ever make me as happy as my relationship with the OM?

We started MC, but the counsellor quickly ended it and suggested we each get individual counselling. He is now my counsellor and says that if I only want to try to fix my M because I think I "should", then there is no hope. And the fact that I don't want to and have no desire to is a dead-end. He says I can't get that desire if it isn't there already.

He says I am done in my M and to start facing that reality, but I have MB saying it is fixable. I don't know who to believe. How do I push through my revulsion (that's what it feels like) for trying?

My counsellor says I am battling myself - what I should be doing vs what I know makes me happy. It is making me depressed. My only reasons for staying and trying are out of fear of what will happen if I leave. Is that a good reason to stay? Shouldn't I stay because I love my H and want to be with him forever? Or it better to stay because I am scared of the work involved in rebuilding my life after I leave?

So, do I listen to this guy? My head says he is only telling me what I want to hear, yet this guy SEES me in my actual situation instead of offering anonymous and blanket advice. I have asked him to help me get past my lack of desire for fixing things, but all he says is that there is nothing to do. He is a really nice and smart guy, but I am questioning his guidance. I think I should look for a new counsellor, but I also think maybe he is right about me.

frown
How old are you and your BH? How long have you been married? Have either of you previously been married?

Do you have any children, and if so, how old are they?

Does your BH or anyone else besides OMW know about the affair?
Wow, your post certainly brings up how affairs and marriage are treated in real life as opposed to the Marriage Builders way.

I am a WW and I can't speak to the effectiveness of MB because as of right now my BH isn't really on board with it yet and admittedly I'm not sure how I feel about it as well. Like you it is difficult for me to put effort into something I can't convince myself is fixable.

HOWEVER,

I will say this: you absolutely cannot make a rational decision with regards to your marriage while still carrying on an affair with the OM. This will totally cloud your thinking, make you rewrite your history with your husband and not allow your brain to function as it should.

Think back, why did you marry your DH in the first place? Do you have children? How long have you been married? Your OM is married and at least attempting to appease his wife by writing the NC letter so he has some investment in making her happy even if he is faking it.

There is so much to say but the vets will be on here soon and they can help you much more than I. My main purpose in writing is to warn you that they will be extremely tough on you. Remember many/most have been betrayed. They are trying to get through the fog. Please listen to what they have to say even if it is harsh. Even though I'm not fully doing the program many people swear by it and Dr. Harely's approach is different. Your counselor is interested in making you feel better NOT making your marriage stronger. He probably isn't a bad guy. He just doesn't realize you can do both.

Good luck to you, please stick around.
Your counselor is wrong.
He has no clue about how to save a marriage and rebuild passion for your spouse.

Get the book Surviving An Affair (either from this website or amazon.com)

Seriously consider, once you have read the book, spending $195 to cousel with a marriagebuilder coach over the phone....see the link a the top of this forum on the red stripe 'counseling center' for one on one direction to feeling positive about your future with your spouse.
Yes. To answer your question. You are getting bad (and typical) advice from your counselor. He's right in that he has no idea how to help you get the passion back in your marriage. Most counselors do not. That's why they have an abysmal success rate when it comes to saving troubled marriages. That doesn't mean it can't be done. It simply means that most counselors don't know how to do it. The Harley's have a great plan for restoring love and passion in troubled marriages. It has worked for a lot of people.

But right now, you are VERY foggy, and that fog will continue to cloud your thinking as long as you are in contact with the OM. I see a lot of rewriting history and other typical foggy lines of thought in your post. I can assure you that you have no future with the OM. Even if he were to leave his wife (and the NC letter he wrote to you is highly indicative that he has no intentions of doing so) and you were to get married, your new marriage would have a 95% chance of ending in divorce. Almost all affairages end in divorce, because they are built on a foundation of lies and deceit. Is that really the kind of relationship you want?

You can find those feelings of love and passion in your marriage again. It is very possible. But you have to want to. And it will not happen as long as you are lying to your H and are still in contact with your OM.

So, read "Surviving an Affair." Tell your BH what has been going on. Send him here so he can get the support he is going to need. Write the OM a NC letter and have no further contact with him. You have nothing to lose by doing that, since your relationship with the OM is doomed whether or not you choose to recover your marriage.

There is hope for your marriage, but you have to get your foggy little wayward head out of the clouds first.
Originally Posted by athena99
I am new here. I am a WW. I read "Surviving an Affair" and really identified with Sue. I am so lost. I had a PA with a coworker for over 2 years.

Welcome to MB, I'm glad you decided to post.

Originally Posted by athena99
His wife discovered it and he sent me a NC letter a few days later. We have since talked and are back in an EA.

OM obviously wants to restore his marriage or he never would have sent the NC letter. OM just thinks he can maintain contact in some way and still acomplish saving his marriage. It will only delay restoring the love he has for his wife and family.

Originally Posted by athena99
I still have deep feelings for OM - this is the "fog". However, I have no feelings for BH. And the thought of trying to fix things with him depresses me so much. I am literally sick when I think of talking or getting close to him. He doesn't know my needs because I haven't told him. But I don't want him to try because I don't think he'll be able to meet them the way I want them met and I am not attracted to him at all right now. Yes, I am being selfish, but shouldn't I be selfish about getting my needs met the way I want them?

Sound pretty normal to me. This won't really change until YOU are willing to maintain NC.

Originally Posted by athena99
Logically, I understand the whole program in MB, but I just can't bring myself to do it. I don't feel anything for BH other than a sense of responsibility. No physical attraction or desire to want to connect with him. Can MB make a passionate marriage out of 2 strangers?

Yes, you can have a great marriage again. The MB program can facilitate this process.

I'll be back when I have a bit more time, but please take the time to answer a few of the questions that have already been asked.
I read that book. Up until the point where you start working on it, it was speaking to me. At that point, I couldn't identify any more. Sue "wanted" to work on it. I really don't. The idea of doing POJA turns me off. I don't want to do anything with him because I don't feel I'll get anything pleasant out of it.

BH and I are in late 30s. First marriage for both. We have 3 kids 9,7,5 (2 boys, 1 girl). The kids are the reason I didn't leave 2 years ago.

I married BH because it was a smart thing to do. He was stable and nice and I thought it was a good match. Thing is, I remember thinking in those early days that I was settling. I talked about it to friends. But they all agreed he was a great guy.

OM feels guilty and doesn't want to hurt his wife any more either (she knows about the PA). But he is in the same boat as I am and even wondering if he should end his M now and stop wasting her time. I am trying to look at my situation separately from his, but do agree that remaining in contact reinforces the feelings.

BH knows about the PA, but not about the broken NC and continuing EA. He wants to fix the marriage - getting divorced is not an option to him. He acknowledges and wants to work on things he did wrong in our marriage. I just don't care. God that sounds awful!!! He is a nice guy. But he does not get my motor going. Not just in a sexual way. But in life - he just doesn't excite me - never has (could be the rewritten history, I know).

I obviously married him and remember having fun. But I don't remember feeling as strongly for him as I do about OM. I am not attracted to BH. How do I get that? Things would be so much easier if I wanted to fix my M and be with him again.


I think you should be willing to lead your heart. Go NC with this guy. Immediately. Tell your BH everything. Give this program a chance. You have nothing to lose. If you try everything in here and spend the time together and work together following the guidance of the Harley's (all with complete NC adhered to) and things don't change. Re-evaluate. You have absolutely nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Would you say that what is best for your children is to have thier parents to be passionately in love with each other? Even if you can't see that happening right now, it is possible. Isn't it worth an honest attempt?
You will never be able to build passion for your H as long as you have any contact with OM.

Same for OM and his wife. Though, frankly that is zero of your business and OM'W would like you to bug off, evaporate and dissappear off the face of the earth, so just do so as far as she and OM are concerned, seriously.

Your H can get your motor going if you just stop your relationship with OM, start communicating what you want and spending minimum 15 hours a week with H, doing great stuff, avoiding lovebusters, and follow the MB plan.

You don't remember how it is you 'settled' for H. Most likely you did because he is a good catch and you knew it and the attraction to him would be great if you had to secretly plan rendevous with him that no one knew about and you had to try to hold on to him with new, exciting physical feats to impress him. Oh. How sexy that would be. (the allure of affairs is supposedly much based on this sneaking around stuff and the lack of commitment that allows people to be more experimental in their acts).

You do sound so very 'foggy' still.

First thing. Stop all contact with your OM, go through withdrawal and do some hard work and stop blaming your H for your lack of desire for him.
Originally Posted by athena99
BH and I are in late 30s. First marriage for both. We have 3 kids 9,7,5 (2 boys, 1 girl). The kids are the reason I didn't leave 2 years ago.

Well, I think those kids are more than a good enough reason to give your marriage a chance. Do you really think you can just divorce your H and move the OM in and everything will be just peachy king and wonderful? You're in your late 30's, so you really ought to know better than that. That's not how it works, and I think you know that.

Originally Posted by athena99
I married BH because it was a smart thing to do. He was stable and nice and I thought it was a good match. Thing is, I remember thinking in those early days that I was settling. I talked about it to friends. But they all agreed he was a great guy.

This is typical wayward history rewriting. It happens all the time. It is a very common symptom of the fog. I'm sure you're convinced you didn't really love your H when you married him and that your feelings for him were never very strong. I doubt that's how you actually felt about it at the time though.

Originally Posted by athena99
BH knows about the PA, but not about the broken NC and continuing EA. He wants to fix the marriage - getting divorced is not an option to him. He acknowledges and wants to work on things he did wrong in our marriage. I just don't care. God that sounds awful!!! He is a nice guy. But he does not get my motor going. Not just in a sexual way. But in life - he just doesn't excite me - never has (could be the rewritten history, I know).

It sounds awful because it is awful, and somewhere in your foggy brain, you obviously know that. You have a H who is willing to forgive you for your A and who wants to work on your M, but you aren't even giving him a chance. He has expressed a desire to change and work on the problems in your M. Do you know how lucky you are? Many men would have simply kicked you to the curb. You have a man who wants to meet your needs and be a better H even though you betrayed him in the worst way possible.
Quote
You will never be able to build passion for your H as long as you have any contact with OM.

Exactly. Compare with this:

"I am an alcoholic. I would really like to be sober. I wish I could enjoy a sober lifestyle, but right now it just has no appeal for me. I don't know what would make me *want* to stay sober. What can I do?"

"p.s. I am still drinking."
Athena, Welcome...

As long as OM is in the picture there is no hope for your M. He is the addiction. Why would you want to work on your M when you are still seeing the OM? You are in the fog and anything out of the fog that is not connected with OM you will reject.

I see in your profile that NC was initiated by OM and was broken by OM. You have a voice in this to say NO.

Do you think you are his soulmate, you both understand each other, no one else understands. Read enough of these treads and understand the wayward babble.

Does the OM have children? Have you thought about how it will affect them? Do you think they will be just fine. Read the threads here. Affairs destroy families. You are part of the destruction.

Are you the OM first A? Don't be surprised that there might have been others. As long as you are seeing OM he will not work on his M. Does his wife deserve this no matter what he rewrote about the history of his M.

Your A is no different than any of the ones that are listed here. Most end within 2 years after ruining everyone's lives.

Is it worth it to work on your M. Absolutely but get rid of the OM first.

OM only wrote the NC letter because his wife was pressuring him to. In that moment it was that or get kicked out. He didn't know what he wanted, so he chose to do it so he could have more time to think about it.

If OM and I were not already married to other people, our relationship would be applauded for how wonderful it is. We already practice most of the stuff on this site and are very good communicators with each other. We have had an EA for over 10 years and it has been PA for 2. I feel sometimes like he's been there throughout my entire marriage and I didn't realise my marriage had never met my needs.

How do I stop comparing BH to OM? NC .. I get it. But will the comparisons ever stop? Will I always think of what I am missing? BH can try really hard and change a lot of things, but he cannot BE OM. Can he change his body, his scent, his eyes, the way he carries himself? Yes, this sounds unbelieveable shallow and I know that. But if I don't have an emotional connection to him AND I don't find him physically attractive ... what do I do? I can't talk to him about this. I have hurt him so much already that laying the physical attraction thing on him seems so incredibly terrible.
I am a FWW, and I can only say one thing right now:

Get away from the OM. You don't care about yourself or your own M enough to fix it....that is your choice. But you are ruining another person's marriage. You are destroying other people's lives. Stop. Now. Get away from the OM.

Adultery is wrong. period.
Originally Posted by athena99
I
BH knows about the PA, but not about the broken NC and continuing EA. He wants to fix the marriage - getting divorced is not an option to him.

Tell him. He deserves the chance to make this decision with FULL information.
I find the "addiction" part so demeaning. Please don't flame me for saying that. I know I am no angel and have been disrespectful to my marriage and my husband. But I have a hard time believing that my friendship and PA with OM is just an addiction.

Would it be called an addiction if I loved my husband in the same way?
You would not be demeaned for loving your husband, no.
I really do get what you all are saying. I just don't know how to get through NC and withdrawal AND get some kind of feeling going for BH. It seems so hopeless. I can look happy on the outside, but not on the inside. And even if I tell him what I want, what if he can't meet my needs?
Originally Posted by athena99
If OM and I were not already married to other people, our relationship would be applauded for how wonderful it is. We already practice most of the stuff on this site and are very good communicators with each other.
puke puke puke

Seriously, I almost lost my lunch when I read this. If you think that anything you are doing with the OM even comes close to following MB principles, then you obviously have absolutely NO idea of what MB principles are.
What if I married the wrong person and now want to correct that oversight? Or is that option gone because I committed adultery and no longer deserve to be happy?

Sorry - just venting here. This is so emotionally exhausting!
Originally Posted by athena99
I really do get what you all are saying. I just don't know how to get through NC and withdrawal AND get some kind of feeling going for BH. It seems so hopeless. I can look happy on the outside, but not on the inside. And even if I tell him what I want, what if he can't meet my needs?

You want to know how to get through it? You just do. At first, it's a b@#!h. It hurts. Withdrawal is no fun. But there's no way around it. You just do it, and every day that passes without contact with the OM, it gets a little easier.

You will never know if your H is capable of meeting your needs unless you give him a chance. And you can't give him that chance if you are still in contact with the OM.
TELL YOUR HUSBAND ABOUT THE BROKEN NC.

Originally Posted by athena99
What if I married the wrong person and now want to correct that oversight? Or is that option gone because I committed adultery and no longer deserve to be happy?

Sorry - just venting here. This is so emotionally exhausting!

If you married the wrong person, then you get a divorce. You don't have an affair.

Listen carefully here. NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS WITH YOUR MARRIAGE, YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH THE OM WILL NOT WORK!!! Affairages never work. You would forever have hanging over your heads 10 years of lies, betrayals, and deceit. Your marriage would have to overcome the fact that 2 entire families were destroyed because of your selfish and immature actions. With so much stacked against it, how do you think you could ever build a decent, respectful marriage between two people who obviously have no respect for the institution of marriage in the first place?
Originally Posted by athena99
How do I stop comparing BH to OM? NC .. I get it. But will the comparisons ever stop? Will I always think of what I am missing? BH can try really hard and change a lot of things, but he cannot BE OM. Can he change his body, his scent, his eyes, the way he carries himself? Yes, this sounds unbelieveable shallow and I know that. But if I don't have an emotional connection to him AND I don't find him physically attractive ... what do I do? I can't talk to him about this. I have hurt him so much already that laying the physical attraction thing on him seems so incredibly terrible.

You're right, your H can't be the OM. He can't be someone who disrespects you and your children so much that he's willing to sleep with you and break up his own family and your family just to satisfy his own selfish desires. Would you really want to be married to this kind of man? Because that's the kind of man your OM is. He is a lier and a cheater and a home-wrecker.
Athena -- you are making a HUGE mistake. Actually lots of them.

Get away from OM and let your head clear. Of course you have no interest in your marriage -- your head and heart are filled with thoughts of another man. Let those feeling subside. Give it 2 months. Honestly.

There is no honor in destroying another womans family. Is that who you want to be? A homewrecker? Not to mention 100% responsible for the destruction of your own children's family.

Trust me -- you will come to hate yourself for it.

Athena99,

Welcome to Marriage Builders...
Originally Posted by athena99
I married BH because it was a smart thing to do. He was stable and nice and I thought it was a good match. Thing is, I remember thinking in those early days that I was settling. I talked about it to friends. But they all agreed he was a great guy.

Trust me you are not alone. You are not the first one, nor the last one that married for the wrong reasons. Ok, Now, if you hadn't had kids, I would suggest to just get a divorce (spare your BH the pain of a recovery) an remarried a guy that you actually believe that you love. Problem with that is, that as soon as you felt out of love with your new husband, you might not be able to use the "married for the wrong reasons excuse", but I assured you that you'll find a new one.

That being said, since you do have kids with your current BH, what you need to do is forget about your current feelings for your BH right now, and choose to stay married because is the right thing to do for ALL of YOU!. With time, as you learn how to fall in love with your BH (for the first time), you won't regret the decision(base on MB stories of success). It will be hard, I'm still trying to work on my marriage, but if anything I have grown up a lot with these people help.

You need to understand that since YOU made the decision to have an affair, you are going to have to work very hard to restore your M. It is very hard when we don't even feel like saving the M. But you have to keep focused on the big picture, and do not lose hope that you can be very happy with your BH. A man who is giving a WW the option to restore the M, is a GREAT man. The OM is a coward, he doesn't deserve your attention nor your time. The first opportunity he had, he decided to dump YOU (NC), instead your BH is STILL standing by your side.

First cut all contact with OM, and send him a NC letter. It will be hard and painful at first but you'll be able to make it, you don't need that man in your life.


Originally Posted by athena99
OM feels guilty and doesn't want to hurt his wife any more either (she knows about the PA). But he is in the same boat as I am and even wondering if he should end his M now and stop wasting her time. I am trying to look at my situation separately from his, but do agree that remaining in contact reinforces the feelings.
No, Athena99, OM doesn't feels guilty. He just want to have you two at the same time.

quote=athena99]
BH knows about the PA, but not about the broken NC and continuing EA. He wants to fix the marriage - getting divorced is not an option to him. He acknowledges and wants to work on things he did wrong in our marriage. I just don't care. God that sounds awful!!! He is a nice guy. But he does not get my motor going. Not just in a sexual way. But in life - he just doesn't excite me - never has (could be the rewritten history, I know).
[/quote]

He will get your motor going, as soon as you get out of the fog, and you start working towards having a great M. It will take time, but you will get there.

OOPs, my FBH got home, got to go.... Hope I helped, even if it was a little bit...
Originally Posted by athena99
What if I married the wrong person and now want to correct that oversight? Or is that option gone because I committed adultery and no longer deserve to be happy?

Sorry - just venting here. This is so emotionally exhausting!

Then you divorce him. Say you no longer want to be married, and that you'll leave him and the kids alone, pay him child support and leave.

After all, if you are really feeling this way, then no need to keep torturing him. The children are a product of the marriage, ditto for any marital property. If you married the wrong person, then leave the marriage. Which means leaving the kids in the hands of your self-described good guy husband. Leave him the house, etc. Pack a bag, and leave with your clothes.

But don't try to take anything more than what you need, support your children and pay off your 1/2 of any unsecured marital debt.

I have no problem with someone leaving. What I have a problem with is folks saying they married the wrong person, but wanting to take all the good stuff with them, forcing out that person.

If you really feel you made a mistake, then shouldn't you be the one who pays the highest cost? Why would you take his kids if you are the one feeling you made a mistake? Why would you want to take the house if you feel you made a mistake?

If you really feel it simply was a mistake, pack a bag and leave. Go to your lawyer tell him you want to leave, your husband gets primary custody of the children, you'll pay the state standard child support, you want no marital assets, only some personal items and you'll be responsible for 1/2 of the non-secured debt.

If you really want to leave, if you really think YOU made a mistake, then you can leave in an honorable fashion.

Any other way of getting out is only you being selfish.
Athena,

You wrote We have had an EA for over 10 years and it has been PA for 2.

You have never even given your marriage a chance in that case. The fact that OM was meeting your needs for that long, means that he was displacing your H for 10 YEARS, and you had less of a marriage than you could of had.

And would a man that LOVES you keep you on the side for that long as an escape plan?

Imagine if you will your daughter describing a relationship she had with someone identical to the one you have with OM, what would you say to her?

God Bless
Gamma
One more thing, before you can find the right person, you have to be the right person.

I don't think it matters who you married. You are not being the right person. Until you do that, until you are the right person, you are in no position to decide if your husband or the OM is the right person.

I can also tell you any person involved in an affair is not the right person, ever.

Since both you and the OM are both involved in affairs, neither of you are the right person.

Work on being the right person, and when you've accomplished that, tell us how you view your husband.

Being the right person means:

1. No Contact with the OM, for the rest of your life. If you make contact, you are no longer being the right person.

2. Meet your husbands emotional needs.

3. Eliminate Love busting from your behaviors.

4. Provide exceptional protections for your marriage.

5. Spend more than 15 hours/week giving your husband undivided attention.

Do that for the 10 years you've been in the EA and then come back and tell us if marrying your husband was a mistake or not. You've given the OM 10 years of an EA, so it's time to give your husband 10 years of being the right one.

Before you can find the right one, you have to be the right one.
Quote
OM only wrote the NC letter because his wife was pressuring him to. In that moment it was that or get kicked out. He didn't know what he wanted

Oh, honey - this is so sad. He knew very well what he wanted - he wanted the same thing every adulterer wants. He wanted both his spouse *and* his affair partner.

And he did exactly what he needed to do to keep both, and he keeps both to this day.

It is very sad that you remain blind to this.

I do have one question: If you and OM are so very right for each other, and your marriage partners are so wrong for you, then why have neither of you left your marriage partners?

With you, especially: If you have no love at all for your husband, why do you stay with him?




Quote
Would it be called an addiction if I loved my husband in the same way?

Would you have to lie to friends and family about loving your husband? Would you have to keep it a secret?

One of the hallmarks of addiction is lying and secrecy by the addict, in order to protect their drug.


Quote
What if I married the wrong person and now want to correct that oversight?

Again: If your husband is so wrong for you, why did you not end the marriage long ago? Why do you stay in it now?
And to expand on Mulan's question, if you have known all along that your H wasn't right for you, then why did you have 3 children with him? Your affair has been going on for 10 years, so all of your children were born while you were supposedly in love with the OM and not your H. Why would you stay with someone you weren't in love with for 10 years and have 3 children with him?
Originally Posted by athena99
OM only wrote the NC letter because his wife was pressuring him to. In that moment it was that or get kicked out. He didn't know what he wanted, so he chose to do it so he could have more time to think about it.

Naw, that is just what he told you so you would keep shagging him. He won't leave his wife for a cheap piece of fun on the side. If he were going to do that, he would have done that. They never do. And if he did leave her he knows there would be no future with you. What he basically wants is his intact marriage and family and some cheap action on the side. I am sorry to tell you this, but he is just using you. crazy When you become more trouble than you are worth, he will toss you aside like used toilet paper.

Just think about the inherent problems in your affair.. He could never take you around his parents or his children. You would be eternally hated by them because of your part in breaking up that family. A source of shame. His mother wouldn't let you darken her doorstep.

But it will never get that far. 95% affairs never make it to marriage. The very traits that make them possible: lies, deceit, thoughtlessness tear them apart. You can never trust each other. There is no future.... Only shame and degradation.

Quote
If OM and I were not already married to other people, our relationship would be applauded for how wonderful it is.

That is not reality. In reality it is filthy, degrading adultery. It is about as romantic as 2 pigs rutting in the pig pen. Adultery is shameful and degrading, not wonderful. What will your children and family members think when they find out what you have been doing with a married man? How ashamed they will be.

Quote
We already practice most of the stuff on this site and are very good communicators with each other. We have had an EA for over 10 years and it has been PA for 2. I feel sometimes like he's been there throughout my entire marriage and I didn't realise my marriage had never met my needs.

Of course your needs weren't met in the marriage. You were getting them met with some other woman's husband.

Quote
BH can try really hard and change a lot of things, but he cannot BE OM. Can he change his body, his scent, his eyes, the way he carries himself?

You should be grateful he cannot be a scumbag. The OM is a scumbag who has used you horribly. You just don't seem to realize it.

On the other hand you can have a loving, intimate relationship with your H that has a future. He is a faithful man, not an unfaithful rat like the OM.
Originally Posted by athena99
What if I married the wrong person and now want to correct that oversight? Or is that option gone because I committed adultery and no longer deserve to be happy?

Naw, you are screwing the wrong person. The married man is the "wrong person." He is married to another woman and would never leave her. If he wanted you for a wife he would have left her years ago.
Athena, my mother was an OW. She spent 14 years waiting for my father to leave his wife and 3 kids. She even had me in an attempt to entice him away. My father spent all of those 14 years telling my mother they would be together someday, that his wife didn't understand him like she did, that my mother was the love of his life.

Well, that was a very long time ago. I'm 39 now. My father is still married to his wife. My mother is still alone. She never married. She spent most of her life pining after an unavailable man, believing his lies. She is now a very angry, bitter, and generally unpleasant woman of 64.
Originally Posted by athena99
We started MC, but the counsellor quickly ended it and suggested we each get individual counselling. He is now my counsellor and says that if I only want to try to fix my M because I think I "should", then there is no hope. And the fact that I don't want to and have no desire to is a dead-end. He says I can't get that desire if it isn't there already.

frown

Your counselor said this because he is unqualified and doesn't have the slightest idea how to restore romantic love to your marriage. He has admitted this so you know you are wasting your time and money with him. You can get there with a qualfied counselor, though. This program, Marriage Builders, can create a romantic, passionate marriage.

My suggestion would be to sign up for the MB course. Many of us have used it and have great marriages. [when we went we had to fly to another city and start the program in a weekend seminar - now they do this part online over a weekend] It costs about $900 and is worth every penny.
Originally Posted by writer1
Well, that was a very long time ago. I'm 39 now. My father is still married to his wife. My mother is still alone. She never married. She spent most of her life pining after an unavailable man, believing his lies. She is now a very angry, bitter, and generally unpleasant woman of 64.

Similarly, my father had a mistress for 35 years. He was married to 6 other women during that time. When he died all she got was his computer that I gave her just to be nice. She waited for 35 years and only got him in the last 3 years of his life when he was terminally ill.

When we were cleaning out his drawers after the funeral, we found a drawer full of unopened cards from "Judy" that were never opened. They were going back to 1980. He cared so little that he just tossed them in a drawer unopened. What a life to be the #2 woman who only gets the crumbs from the table of life from some other woman. sick
Wow. I cannot believe how many responses to my original post. Thank you all so very much for your candid observations and advice.

I knew by posting on this forum I would get to see the other side of the issue. I was disappointed in my counsellor's "diagnosis" and wanted some help moving forward. I have booked an appt next week with a new counsellor and I will let him know first off that my goal is to fix things, but I need to know how to start.

I do hear you when you say these (nasty but true?) things about OM. I truly believe he loves me and doesn't want to hurt me. But I guess there is something to be said for having not left our marriages already. We talked about it a lot, but felt our spouses, children, and our consciences deserved us being 100% sure before we left. We never did get that certain and are still stuck on the fence. If he is such a bad person and can't be trusted, what does that say about me?

I know I owe it to BH to work on things honestly - and that means NC. But I already suffer from depression (on medication for it) and the thought of losing the one person who has kept me sane is frankly quite scary. I know I have to do it, I just don't know how. One time when my guilt got the better of me and I told OM I needed to focus at home, he got quite down on himself and tried to fight for me. I know how ridiculous that sounds, but it is so hard to go through that.

Yet as I type this I know it is the right and best thing to do.

I am not a stupid person - I need to suck it up and show my BH and myself that I am not a quitter either. I just don't know how strong I am. When I read the book "Surviving an Affair" and about POJA and other basics, it makes my stomach turn. I would love to practice and employ these things with OM, but with BH it seems awkward and forced. Yeah, there's the fog again. i guess without NC, any other discussion is just pointless.

Arrrrgh! How do I get through NC? I work with the guy and really can't consider switching jobs. And if he tries contact, I know I am not strong enough to resist.

I'll talk to my new counsellor, but I am starting to feel like this may be my best place for support of this plan. Every other counsellor I've had has pretty much said I should leave my M and it was always exciting, yet disappointing to hear. I really did want someone to kick me in the [censored] and tell me how to work on it.

I know I always thought I had something special with OM, but I guess my A probably falls into a very familiar and common category for you all. It may take a while for that reality to fully sink in.
"Arrrrgh! How do I get through NC? I work with the guy and really can't consider switching jobs. And if he tries contact, I know I am not strong enough to resist."

I surprised that you haven't been told NC means you get the OM to quit or you have to quit.

There is nothing to consider. This has to be done.
Originally Posted by athena99
Arrrrgh! How do I get through NC? I work with the guy and really can't consider switching jobs. And if he tries contact, I know I am not strong enough to resist.

NC will indeed mean having to quit your job, unless OM leaves first. But you cannot work together anymore if you hope to save your M. There is no way for you to work with the OM and work on your marriage at the same time.
Quote
If OM and I were not already married to other people, our relationship would be applauded for how wonderful it is.

If I won the GA and FL lotteries, I wouldn't have to worry about paying the rent. crazy

The point is, you ARE married...to other people. That makes it wrong. If I had stolen both my children from the hospital, it wouldn't matter how much I loved them.....they aren't my children.

I thought I loved the OM. I thought I felt things I had never felt before. I just knew that I had married the wrong man and that I only married him because of my parents and that I knew all along he was not for me. But it was all a lie I told myself. And you know what? Even if it wasn't a lie....even if I DID love the OM and DH HAD been the wrong man....it was still wrong. Because it's adultery.

End all contact. Tell your BH and some friends who will keep you accountable EVERYTHING. Tell your boss. Have your BH contact the OM's W. Every time you think about the OM make yourself think of something else...and remember how much pain adultery causes.

For the next several months at least, your sole job is to make amends and take responsibility.
OM has been my best friend for so long. Not having him around to talk to is going to be hard. I don't have any girlfriends and BH has told me I need to get one so I can have someone to talk to about things.

But shouldn't HE be the one I should be talking to? Instead he tells me to go outside of the marriage to fill that need. In his mind, I guess so long as it is a woman that is ok.

BH isn't a great talker. We've never discussed non-practical things before. This part isn't foggy - he's just a practical guy and emotional stuff isn't his forte. I don't see me curling up with him and waxing poetic about our hopes, dreams and love for each other.
Honestly, it's been so long since you have given him a real chance to do those things....you don't know.

The thing is....if you had never had an A and had made the decision that you weren't getting what you needed....you could have asked him for this. Now, you have dealt a nearly mortal blow to your M and your BH. Before he is able to even wrap his mind around opening up to you.....you are going to have to do some work.

I know this sounds harsh. I remember. But the best thing to do right now is look what you have chosen/are choosing to do right in the face. No qualifications, no justifications. No pride, no "buts." For 10 years you have lived a lie with your BH. It will not be okay in a week....or a month. That's part of the deal.

Do what is right because it is right. That is what people of character do.
Athena,

he thought of losing the one person who has kept me sane is frankly quite scary..... One time when my guilt got the better of me and I told OM I needed to focus at home, he got quite down on himself and tried to fight for me.

I'm sorry to say this, but this is a common male ploy to keep a woman hooked to him, play to her sympathy, it is a watered down version of how pimps keep their women emotionally enslaved to them. I can't tell you how many men I've seen "break down" when their spouse/so gets sick of their crap.

Unfortunately the constant mystery and drama of such a relationship seems more exciting than an honest relationship.

This isn't sanity, but it seems like sanity when you compare it to the pain of separation.

God Bless
Gamma
Originally Posted by athena99
BH isn't a great talker. We've never discussed non-practical things before. This part isn't foggy - he's just a practical guy and emotional stuff isn't his forte. I don't see me curling up with him and waxing poetic about our hopes, dreams and love for each other.

He can learn to be romantic, just as you can learn to stop being deceitful. I am much more worried about your ability to even be in an honest, open relationship because of your long term habits of dishonesty. But that can change with this program. It is your dishonesty that has been the greatest impediment to intimacy in your marriage.
Originally Posted by athena99
OM has been my best friend for so long. Not having him around to talk to is going to be hard.

You need to get over this kind of thinking. The OM was not your best friend. He did not care about you. He did not have your best interests in mind. You know how I know this? Because someone who is truly your friend and truly cares about you would never do something as low and hurtful as having an affair with you. Someone who loves you would want what was best for you. An affair hurts everyone, including the people who are involved in it, and we do not intentionally hurt people who we care about.
Originally Posted by athena99
I do hear you when you say these (nasty but true?) things about OM. I truly believe he loves me and doesn't want to hurt me.

But the truth is that he HAS hurt you. He is degraded and used you in the worst possible way. That is not love. Shagging a married woman is not love. I am sorry, but his actions speak the truth and it is clear from his actions that he has a very low regard for you.

Quote
We talked about it a lot, but felt our spouses, children, and our consciences deserved us being 100% sure before we left. We never did get that certain and are still stuck on the fence.

Right. Because he wouldn't leave his wife and children for an affair. He wasn't stuck on any fence. He was firmly in his marriage while getting some cheap side action. It is very unlikely that you are the only one.

Quote
If he is such a bad person and can't be trusted, what does that say about me?

You tell me? Can you be honest?

Quote
I know I owe it to BH to work on things honestly - and that means NC. But I already suffer from depression (on medication for it) and the thought of losing the one person who has kept me sane is frankly quite scary.

No, your affair has kept you depressed. Violating your conscience with a situation where you are degraded and used causes depression. Depression is a DIRECT RESULT of adultery.

Quote
I know I have to do it, I just don't know how. One time when my guilt got the better of me and I told OM I needed to focus at home, he got quite down on himself and tried to fight for me.

But he would never leave his marriage for you.

Quote
I am not a stupid person - I need to suck it up and show my BH and myself that I am not a quitter either. I just don't know how strong I am. When I read the book "Surviving an Affair" and about POJA and other basics, it makes my stomach turn. I would love to practice and employ these things with OM, but with BH it seems awkward and forced. Yeah, there's the fog again. i guess without NC, any other discussion is just pointless.

Yes, it will feel awkward and forced with your H at first. But once you start giving him the same attention you gave to loserOM, you will see the dynamic change. You once felt awkward with the OM, but overcame it. You can have the same thing with your H.

Quote
Arrrrgh! How do I get through NC? I work with the guy and really can't consider switching jobs. And if he tries contact, I know I am not strong enough to resist.

You must change jobs if you want to recover. There is no other way to withdraw.

Quote
I'll talk to my new counsellor, but I am starting to feel like this may be my best place for support of this plan. Every other counsellor I've had has pretty much said I should leave my M and it was always exciting, yet disappointing to hear. I really did want someone to kick me in the [censored] and tell me how to work on it.

Traditional counselors don't have the slightest idea how to save marriages and have an 84% failure rate. Most don't even believe that romantic love can be created in a marriage much less HOW to achieve it. Counselors usually cause more harm than good.

Quote
I know I always thought I had something special with OM,

Actually, being used is nothing "special." He has something "special" with the woman he honored by taking wedding vows with her.
Originally Posted by athena99
Arrrrgh! How do I get through NC? I work with the guy and really can't consider switching jobs. And if he tries contact, I know I am not strong enough to resist.

You cannot achieve NC without leaving the job.
Useful thread here.

Stop insulting the father of your children.
Quote
I obviously married him and remember having fun. But I don't remember feeling as strongly for him as I do about OM. I am not attracted to BH. How do I get that? Things would be so much easier if I wanted to fix my M and be with him again.
You're not going to be able to repair your M until OM is out of the picture. Right now the two of you are trying to have it all, and you've already seen that that doesn't work.

OM is an addiction for you. You need to leave your job immediately and begin NC in order to give your M any chance at all. Until you do that you will not be able to recover your M.

Quote
OM only wrote the NC letter because his wife was pressuring him to. In that moment it was that or get kicked out. He didn't know what he wanted, so he chose to do it so he could have more time to think about it.
And you aren't totally insulted and embarrassed by this??? OM could have refused and professed his undying love for you! And yet..."Yes dear, I'll end it with her, dear" What, do you think you're trash or something?? Do you think you're in a better place by slinking around with a married man who has already demonstrated that he will pick his wife over you, as opposed to your faithful husband at home?? What the hell am I missing, here? Are you not totally offended that this OM thinks so little of you that he uses you at work and then goes home to his wife and family?? That he spends his free time with them because THEY are his family, not you??

Quote
If OM and I were not already married to other people, our relationship would be applauded for how wonderful it is. We already practice most of the stuff on this site and are very good communicators with each other. We have had an EA for over 10 years and it has been PA for 2. I feel sometimes like he's been there throughout my entire marriage and I didn't realise my marriage had never met my needs.
Then your M has been tainted by your affair from Day 1. You have no way of knowing how good your M could have been - you've been unfaithful from the beginning. And read that line I put in bold: YOU'RE MARRIED TO OTHER PEOPLE! END OF SPECULATION!! faint

Quote
How do I stop comparing BH to OM? NC .. I get it. But will the comparisons ever stop?
Sure. As soon as you are on board with recovering your M.

quote]Can he change his body, his scent, his eyes, the way he carries himself? Yes, this sounds unbelieveable shallow and I know that. But if I don't have an emotional connection to him AND I don't find him physically attractive ... what do I do? I can't talk to him about this. I have hurt him so much already that laying the physical attraction thing on him seems so incredibly terrible.[/quote]
Fog babble. We promise not to remind you of these words after you're on board with recovery. Think about it. You've got three kids. You must not have been totally repulsed by him on occasion, yes?
"quote]Can he change his body, his scent, his eyes, the way he carries himself? Yes, this sounds unbelieveable shallow and I know that. But if I don't have an emotional connection to him AND I don't find him physically attractive ... what do I do? I can't talk to him about this. I have hurt him so much already that laying the physical attraction thing on him seems so incredibly terrible.[/quote]"

turkey baster MrRollieEyes
You guys can be so harsh - but I really needed to hear that. Thank you.

Last night I opened up to BH and told him about the broken NC. He was disappointed and sad, but glad I told him. I went against what my heart was screaming not to do and told him of all the ways I had continued to lie. Now he knows he needs to monitor my email and phone. I am embarassed to admit that I need him to keep me accountable, but I know how weak I can be and it would actually be easier to resist OM knowing that I have to face BH and not just avoid him. I asked him to make sure he asks questions and I answer them - not to let me off. I will try to be transparent, but I know how easy it is for me to keep things to myself.

We are working on a plan together to send a NC letter to OM and make the changes necessary to ensure it sticks this time. We even talked about me changing careers and the sacrifices involved. It might be nice to downsize a bit - so long as the reason is that we get a healthy marriage out of it.

What are my next steps? We've got the "Surviving an Affair" and "Love Busters" books. Should we start trying the techniques in there or would it be best to start with counselling from MB? BH and I agreed that maybe we should try MC again and perhaps I should stay away from individual counselling for now.
athena, you did wonderful! By telling your H, you have enlisted a valuable resource in holding you accountable. You will need his help.

I would hand over all your phone and email passwords to him. The more transparent you are, the harder it will be to contact the OM.

I would strongly urge your H to come here so we can help him with next steps.

The fastest horse towards recovery will be the MB online program. They assign you a marriage coach and you have daily access to Dr Harley. They guide through the lessons over a period of weeks until romantic love is restored to your marriage.

The next fastest horse is to get phone coaching with either Dr Jennifer Chalmers or her brother, Steve. The sessions run around $200. They don't believe in endless sessions, though, because the bulk of your work will be done via homework lessons.

The cheapest way is to do it yourself through the books with the support of the forum. This has worked for a few and can work if you are very diligent and stick to your lessons.

The most impactful things you can do now would be to end all contact with the OM [and I do mean ALL!!] and start spending 20+ hours per week with your husband ALONE giving each other undivided attention. You would focus mainly on the top 4 intimate emotional needs of conversation, affection, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment. <------this program does not work without this step.
"You guys can be so harsh - but I really needed to hear that. Thank you."

Same back at you for having an open mind.

"BH and told him about the broken NC..... and told him of all the ways I had continued to lie. Now he knows he needs to monitor my email and phone. I am embarassed to admit that I need him to keep me accountable, but I know how weak I can be and it would actually be easier to resist OM knowing that I have to face BH and not just avoid him. I asked him to make sure he asks questions and I answer them - not to let me off."

You realise that you need help and were right to ask for it.

"We are working on a plan together to send a NC letter to OM and make the changes necessary to ensure it sticks this time."

What changes are you talking about?

"We even talked about me changing careers and the sacrifices involved. It might be nice to downsize a bit - so long as the reason is that we get a healthy marriage out of it."

What sacrafices?

Why change carrers?

Why not just employer?
Thanks for the link to the thread entitled "Read My Lips: NO CONTACT MEANS NO CONTACT".

It really opened my eyes. I really believed I could keep things professional and reading that made me see how difficult it would really be. There was one post by lifechoice that really spoke to me.

athena, can your husband sign up and come here and start a thread?
I could just change employers and we talked about that too. Right now I have a very cushy job and a decent salary. It would be kinda silly to throw it all away for a minimum wage position somewhere.

Am I just being naive in thinking that I can take the next couple of weeks to look for a new job while still working with OM? Or should I just quit and worry about the new job after? I really should give 2 weeks notice and I am not comfortable airing my personal business in the office so they can make it easier for me.

As far as changes to make sure NC sticks - I want to be fully accountable to him. I can't keep lying.

Though even reading this, it is obvious that if I see OM anymore at work (even in the hallway) there really isn't NC. I can promise not to initiate any kind of communication, but until I quit, things are still in danger. I guess I'll be polishing up my resume, like YESTERDAY!

When I talked to BH last night, he seemed ok with me not having to quit work. Then I read the POJA to him and he admitted he was not thrilled about me still being there. I guess that stuff really does work smile I just need to suck it up and do what I have to to make him comfortable (something I haven't even been giving any consideration to in a long time).

BH and I are both aware that I have many ups and downs and these roller coaster rides are excruciating (for both of us). Are these normal? I feel like when I am on the top of the ride I want to tell him everything and when I start heading back down again I get secretive and defensive. My demeanor changes SO MUCH. Last night was an up night and I let it all flow out. It felt good. Yet I worry (with good historical reason) that things will freefall soon and I will start feeding him bulls**t again. I only hope that over time these cycles will get shorter and less frequent and that I don't do something irrepairable in the meantime.
I will talk to BH about coming here. He is a private person but I should give him the choice and not speak for him.

Is it sad and pathetic that I am nervous about letting him here because then I will have to be even more transparent? My first reaction was that I will have to lie here if I screw up and am afraid to have him find out.

But having just admitted that makes me see that I can be truthful. And it feels good.
Originally Posted by athena99
IWhen I talked to BH last night, he seemed ok with me not having to quit work. Then I read the POJA to him and he admitted he was not thrilled about me still being there. I guess that stuff really does work I just need to suck it up and do what I have to to make him comfortable (something I haven't even been giving any consideration to in a long time).

What is your plan if you can't find another job right away? If you are going to wait to quit, then I would tell your bosses about your affair so you have folks watching at work. And keep in mind, recovery will not happen until you are out of there. Every time you see him is the equivalent of an alcoholic taking a drink; he is in a state of perpetual withdrawal.

Quote
BH and I are both aware that I have many ups and downs and these roller coaster rides are excruciating (for both of us). Are these normal? I feel like when I am on the top of the ride I want to tell him everything and when I start heading back down again I get secretive and defensive. My demeanor changes SO MUCH. Last night was an up night and I let it all flow out. It felt good. Yet I worry (with good historical reason) that things will freefall soon and I will start feeding him bulls**t again.

You are in the habit of being dishonest. But you can get out of that habit if you create a completely transparent life NOW. That means giving him all your passwords and access to your work computer, everything. Accounting for every minute of your time. Having lunch with him every day if that is possible. That means bringing him here TO US so it is impossible to maintain secrets with him.

Additionally, he needs to be in touch with the OM's wife so they can compare notes and keep you two busted up forever. Your older children should be told the truth about the source of the tension in your home. Giving them false explanations to white wash your crimes just teaches them dishonesty.

Originally Posted by athena99
I will talk to BH about coming here. He is a private person but I should give him the choice and not speak for him.

Is it sad and pathetic that I am nervous about letting him here because then I will have to be even more transparent? My first reaction was that I will have to lie here if I screw up and am afraid to have him find out.

But having just admitted that makes me see that I can be truthful. And it feels good.

Good girl!! It will be a huge help to your marriage if he is here reading your posts. We can also help him do the right things in his recovery.
Can you get by on your BH's salary?

How long do you think it would take to find an equivalent/good job?

Was the OM in a position of authority?

If so if this affair was exposed at work by your BH there would be a good chance the OM would get fired. Even if he doesn't I think it would be good for your BH to expose at work either way.
Athena99,

Actually, you are doing much better already than some people in these forums who are not in affair but considering it...
The OM is not in a position of authority, but exposing at work would be very limiting to both of our careers. It is a small world in our field and I am sure that once I quit it will all be ok.

No, I don't think we could get by on BH's salary alone.

OM's W wants nothing to do with BH and I (understandably) so I don't see her and BH comparing notes. But should we tell her about the broken NC? I feel it is none of our business and I should let OM make his own choices.
Originally Posted by athena99
OM's W wants nothing to do with BH and I (understandably) so I don't see her and BH comparing notes. But should we tell her about the broken NC? I feel it is none of our business and I should let OM make his own choices.

Well it is your business. You are having an affair with her husband. You owe her the truth as much as her husband. Your husband should be the one to tell her, though. I would ask him to call her up and tell her. If he won't do that, then you should send her an email telling her the truth. The loserOM probably won't tell her so the oblgation falls to you.
As I was reading the last 2 pages of posts, I kept thinking, "OM'S W NEEDS TO KNOW." I am glad that that was brought up. OMW NEEDS to know. Your BH should tell her.

Athena, another thought came to my mind, how did you find out about MB?

OMW must be told that OM broke NC.
Originally Posted by athena99
I will talk to BH about coming here. He is a private person but I should give him the choice and not speak for him.

Is it sad and pathetic that I am nervous about letting him here because then I will have to be even more transparent? My first reaction was that I will have to lie here if I screw up and am afraid to have him find out.

But having just admitted that makes me see that I can be truthful. And it feels good.

He will have his own thread, and you will have yours. We always recommend that spouses stay off the other's thread. If they don't stay off we usually pick up on that in something they say on their own thread and we give them a firm, yet gentle twoxfour. It's Honor System, of course, but most spouses do honor that because they realize that it's in their best interest to stay off the other one's thread.

And you know what, Athena? I think most married people consider themselves 'private' people when it comes to their M. That's the beauty of this site: it's anonymous. It's not people you know.
Originally Posted by athena99
You guys can be so harsh - but I really needed to hear that. Thank you.

Last night I opened up to BH and told him about the broken NC. He was disappointed and sad, but glad I told him. I went against what my heart was screaming not to do and told him of all the ways I had continued to lie. Now he knows he needs to monitor my email and phone. I am embarassed to admit that I need him to keep me accountable, but I know how weak I can be and it would actually be easier to resist OM knowing that I have to face BH and not just avoid him. I asked him to make sure he asks questions and I answer them - not to let me off. I will try to be transparent, but I know how easy it is for me to keep things to myself. athena, good for you! I know how hard it must have been for an addict to admit she needs help - comfort yourself in knowing that you have this wonderful, committed man to help you with this!

We are working on a plan together to send a NC letter to OM and make the changes necessary to ensure it sticks this time. We even talked about me changing careers and the sacrifices involved. It might be nice to downsize a bit - so long as the reason is that we get a healthy marriage out of it. You can send NC letters until the Hot Place freezes over, and it won't mean a thing until you leave that job. You understand that, right?

What are my next steps? We've got the "Surviving an Affair" and "Love Busters" books. Should we start trying the techniques in there or would it be best to start with counselling from MB? BH and I agreed that maybe we should try MC again and perhaps I should stay away from individual counselling for now. Don't waste your money on a local MC. They're worthless when it comes to savings marriages damaged by adultery. You need to get an appt with the Harleys. Post haste. It's the best money you will ever spend. You want to look at your H as the guy on the white horse? The One you'd gladly spend a lifetime with? Here's your chance.
Ok - BH is seriously considering posting here. I am proud of that smile

Now, another tricky question ... telling OMW. I know this will sound naive and un-MB-like, but I kinda promised him I wouldn't tell his W we had been talking. He gave me the impression that if she found out he broke NC, that she would kick him to the curb. Neither I nor BH want that as it sets the stage for more temptation if OM is suddenly free and available.

Do we send the NC letter to OM and "threaten" to tell OMW if he doesn't do it first? OMW was the one who discovered the affair and gave me the ultimatum to tell BH, which I did. It would be so strange to have it come right back around like that.

Should the NC letter come from me or BH? Do we send it so that only OM sees it (we can send it to an email OMW hasn't accessed yet)? Or should we send it to both of them at the same time. I know they both need to know, but I would like to give him the chance to save some face in his own marriage and not be blindsided by us sending something to OMW.

I want to do the proper thing, but I also don't want to do something that hurts them more than necessary.
DO NOT THREATEN TO TELL. JUST TELL!

It is not your business what his W does with the information. If he has cheated with you he has likely cheated with others. You are enabling her to unknowingly risk her life.

What if his dalliances caused him to get herpes? Would you want to be the loving, faithful wife that gets that because someone refused to tell her that he was cheating?
As far as how I found out about MB. Well 2 ways really.

One, I was doing a lot of internet searches during my PA to figure out what to do. I ran across the site and did a bit of reading. It scared me. But didn't scare me straight.

Second, when OM sent the NC letter to me after D-Day, he listed some of the links to here. He and OMW have been looking at this site. They have been reading the books too.
Originally Posted by athena99
As far as how I found out about MB. Well 2 ways really.

One, I was doing a lot of internet searches during my PA to figure out what to do. I ran across the site and did a bit of reading. It scared me. But didn't scare me straight.

Second, when OM sent the NC letter to me after D-Day, he listed some of the links to here. He and OMW have been looking at this site. They have been reading the books too.

I would say, that despite the horrendous act that you participated in when it came to their marriage, that leading you here was a gracious act. Don't waste that.

One of the first things you will come to understand, is that in the lens of your marriage, the A is the responsibility of you and you alone. For the OM, the responsibility to protect his M, and respect his BW was his and his alone.

Quote
OMW was the one who discovered the affair and gave me the ultimatum to tell BH, which I did

So that's why you don't want to tell. You want to "protect" your precious OM from his vindictive, mean wife... sigh
Originally Posted by athena99
Ok - BH is seriously considering posting here. I am proud of that smile

Now, another tricky question ... telling OMW. I know this will sound naive and un-MB-like, but I kinda promised him I wouldn't tell his W we had been talking. He gave me the impression that if she found out he broke NC, that she would kick him to the curb. Neither I nor BH want that as it sets the stage for more temptation if OM is suddenly free and available.

There is no trick here at all. The only thing worse than making a bad promise is KEEPING a bad promise. It was WRONG of you to make a promise to deceive your victims and it is even more wrong for you to keep a promise to help him deceive her. You owe that woman the truth.

And it is ridiculous to say that it will create MORE of a temptation when you are having an affair with the man. That makes no sense. If the OMW knows she can STOP him. And since he is not going to leave her for you, it is doubtful they will separate.

Quote
He gave me the impression that if she found out he broke NC, that she would kick him to the curb.

If you know she would kick him out if she knew, then you are helping him be even more cruel and manipulative. She has a RIGHT to kick him out if she wants to. You and that scumbag OM have no right to deprive her of that option by withholding the truth from her. You think that as*hat is justified to TRICK her into staying with him by lying to her? That is very cruel and manipulative. Don't be a party to that! Don't sell out your own integrity by being a party to that sick, cruel little plan.

Your H needs to pick up the phone and call the woman TODAY. There is absolutely no excuse not to unless you want to keep that door open. The more people who know the harder it will be for you to resume your affair.

Seriously. There is no excuse not to call her TODAY and tell her. The fact that she doesn't know is dangerous to your own marriage. IT leaves the door wide open. If she knows, she can help shut the door from that end.
Originally Posted by athena99
Should the NC letter come from me or BH? Do we send it so that only OM sees it (we can send it to an email OMW hasn't accessed yet)? Or should we send it to both of them at the same time. I know they both need to know, but I would like to give him the chance to save some face in his own marriage and not be blindsided by us sending something to OMW.

The first thing to do is stop protecting the OM at his wife's expense. The OMW and her children are the victims here, not the OM. The OM needs to be exposed TODAY to his wife. Asking a liar to tell the truth to his victim is not realistic and does nothing to help his wife. Instead of playing games, it is much simpler to have your H pick up the phone or drive over there and inform his W that the affair has never stopped.

The OM does not "deserve" any chances. His victim deserves a chance to defend herself from his cruel, sick, abusive behavior. Not telling her or playing games by trying to force a liar to tell her the truth only complicates something that is really very simple.

So, the first order of business has to be to expose the affair directly to the OMW.

After that is done and after you actually end contact, THEN you send a no contact letter that is written by you, approved by your H and mailed together. IT should be addressed to the both the OM and his wife.
Originally Posted by karmasrose
[quote]So that's why you don't want to tell. You want to "protect" your precious OM from his vindictive, mean wife... sigh


The OMW is not a vindictive, mean person. I know I have screwed up her life in unimaginable ways. Whe sent me the note after D-Day to let me tell BH myself or she would do it for me. I am glad she gave me that chance. I was able to tell him in the way that was easiest for both of us instead of having it hit him out of nowhere.

I guess I feel I owe her the chance to see her H show her the same courtesy. I want to believe OM would do the right thing and tell her, but I am actually starting to wonder if he will.
He is a piece of SCUM who slept with a married woman. He has no morals WHAT-SO-EVER. He is what you scrape off your shoe in disgust.

He is not Saint Prince Charming!

Why would he "do the right thing"? You aren't telling his W. You're doing him such a great favor by shutting your mouth.
i am new here as well. i am responding to your post because i am able to identify with what you are going through.

i recieved some advice on here that is really helping me stay on track and i want to share it with you.

watch the movie Fireproof and get the Love Dare book.

i wish you luck.
Originally Posted by athena99
I guess I feel I owe her the chance to see her H show her the same courtesy. I want to believe OM would do the right thing and tell her, but I am actually starting to wonder if he will.

You mean you feel you owe your OM a chance, not her. Going to the OM first is not doing HER any favors, it is doing you and your lover a favor. There is nothing "courteous" about helping the OM lie and trick her. And you know that is his goal. He already told you that. Your plan gives him a chance to lie and spin the story, which leaves the door open for YOU to continue your affair when you want to go back.

Why would you stab her in the back like that after what she did for you?

The best thing for the OMW is not to give her creepy H a heads up, but to give HER a heads up about what he is doing behind her back.
athena, she did your husband no favors by contacting you first. She should have contacted him herself and given him the evidence. Asking the bank robber to bust himself rather than just busting him leads to unneccessary complications that more often results in the victim not getting the truth.

If you want to do the right thing for the OMW, you will ask your H to pick up the phone tonight and call her. Don't delay and don't place the important job of passing on this critical information on the shoulders of a liar who has an emotional investment in hiding the truth.

She has a right to know she is being harmed behind her back and withholding that information frm her because of some silly notion that you want the perp to do it only delays justice for absolutely no good reason.
Quote
Ok - BH is seriously considering posting here. I am proud of that

Yay, athena's BH! We're waiting to help ...


So did you tell OMW that he broke NC.
Athena, the reason that I asked how you found this place is because I had a feeling that OMW sent you here. She is a good woman. Also, think about this. OMW and OM use MB. They are reading the books. OMW is in a FALSE RECOVERY and she doesn't even know it. She thinks that the affair is DEAD. She believes that they are trying to SAVE THEIR MARRIAGE. BUT.....HE IS LYING. WAYWARDS LIE.

Now, suppose that the OMW stumbles across YOUR thread, THIS THREAD. And she reads it HERE and THAT'S how she finds out. Because believe me SHE WILL FIND OUT. Then she will see the date that you started posting and she will be even MORE angry and hurt because she could have been saved from more DAYS, WEEKS or YEARS of pain from this FR.

Even if she does kick OM out, you won't know, because......YOU WILL BE IN NC FOR REAL THIS TIME.

Give the BW the courtesy of telling her before she reads it on here.
Glad you're here, Athena. It sounds like your interactions on this forum have at least begun to reshape your views in a positive way.

Originally Posted by athena99
when OM sent the NC letter to me after D-Day, he listed some of the links to here. He and OMW have been looking at this site.

Have you read posts on this forum that you think are from OM or OMW?
To tell you the truth, I haven't looked around for posts that look like they are from OM or OMW. Should I?

BH just sent an email to OMW. I guess the sh*t is going to hit the fan now ...
@athena -

If you really want to start recovery, you need to be thinking of your BS. Covering for the OM is not going to help in your recovery one bit.

Who has your BS exposed your affair to besides OMW?

Exposure is the number one catalyst for ending an affair.

Transparency is the key.
I think BH and I are hoping to keep my A just between us. I don't think exposing it to our families or friends is going to help at all. I would feel ashamed and defensive, even though I know I did something wrong.

Am I being naive? I get that exposure can help end an A, but if I am committed to NC, do we still need exposure? Maybe one day, but not while we are so raw - I don't need anyone poking their noses in and bugging BH and I while we are trying to work on things.
Other people knowing helps keep you accountable.
Originally Posted by DeltaDriveDeceit
Glad you're here, Athena. It sounds like your interactions on this forum have at least begun to reshape your views in a positive way.

Originally Posted by athena99
when OM sent the NC letter to me after D-Day, he listed some of the links to here. He and OMW have been looking at this site.

Have you read posts on this forum that you think are from OM or OMW?

That's what I was wondering too. Hopefully Athena is being honest with us here and this (posting on MB) isn't just a ploy to intrude on OM's marriage yet again. THAT would be horrific.
DO NOT GO SEARCHING FOR OM AND OMW. NC MEANS NC.

Work on YOUR marriage. Hopefully, since it IS anonymous, you will NOT find OMW. Although, I am CERTAIN that if she pointed you here, she is looking for YOU. That is what I would do.

As far as if you should tell people, I agree with Karmarose. I think you two, TOGETHER should tell the most important people in your lives. I also think that you SHOULD tell your workplace. If you are going to quit anyways, you may as well be HONEST about it.

Start practicing honesty in all facets of your life.

The A didn't end BEFORE. So, you may as well go full on MB and expose this thing. You should apologize to HIS parents and siblings.

If your BH came here, we would be telling him that he needs to expose and every time that there is contact, he would re-expose. THAT is what we would tell OMW too.

Make sure you do it, with your BH by your side so you are less likely to LIE.
Originally Posted by athena99
To tell you the truth, I haven't looked around for posts that look like they are from OM or OMW. Should I?

BH just sent an email to OMW. I guess the sh*t is going to hit the fan now ...

Is there any chance at all that OM can intercept that email? Can he follow up with a phone call when he knows OM isn't around his BW?
Originally Posted by athena99
I think BH and I are hoping to keep my A just between us. I don't think exposing it to our families or friends is going to help at all. I would feel ashamed and defensive, even though I know I did something wrong.

Am I being naive? I get that exposure can help end an A, but if I am committed to NC, do we still need exposure? Maybe one day, but not while we are so raw - I don't need anyone poking their noses in and bugging BH and I while we are trying to work on things.

Help comes from surprising places. There may be a lot of people in your circle you have been where you are, and, like you, hid it from their circle of family/friends. Those people can be a source of support. Others can help by keeping you accountable. YOU will be better at policing yourself if you know that everyone knows.

Athena, do you really think they'd 'poke their noses in'? Really? I don't think so.
Athena99

Why don't you and your BS meet with your close friends and family together and just tell them you had the affair and who with. It will be so much better for you to do this and the honesty will go a long way. Some will be shocked however you will be surprised how many will reach out to support you, even if they use words only. It has the added advantage of taking the guilt and deceit of your chest and helps keep you on track going forward.

You call it exposure I call it honesty and giving your marriage a chance

If OM and OMW have posted here, I really don't want to find it. All I know is that they have been reading the books and looking at the information on the site - I don't know if they have been on the forums.

I don't want to interfere in their M anymore and I truly do wish them well. We all used to be friends. That is all over now.

BH sent OMW an email and followed it up with a text. I seriously doubt OM could catch both. BH asked her to respond after she gets it to confirm. He hasn't received anything back yet.

I feel like I threw OM to the wolves and I know I shouldn't care. He will be mad at me and feel betrayed, but that is a good thing - he needs to know there is nothing left between us.

BH and I really need to give some thought to this exposure thing. He doesn't seem enthusiastic about it and nether do I. While I wouldn't like being outed, I get that I brought it on myself. However, BH doesn't deserve everyone to know we were failing to meet each other's needs and that I cheated on him. We so rarely have contact with family or friends, that it doesn't seem important. Plus, none of them really know OM or OMW and wouldn't be able to police me anyway.

However, there are a couple of mutual friends who would plan events and invite all of us - if they knew, they could choose not to invite one set and there wouldn't be any chance of meeting OM or OMW at one of these events. Otherwise I guess we'd all have to avoid these friends since NC would mean we wouldn't know if they are coming.

At this point, moving to a new city is looking pretty good.
Athena, I'm so happy to hear you've made wise choices in the past few days. Good for you!

If it is doable for you, the move sounds like a promising plan ... a fresh start in a new area without negative triggers surrounding you and your husband.

I may have missed it in this thread but do you have kids?

---
Edit: Nevermind, I found the answer to my question.

Originally Posted by athena99
We have 3 kids 9,7,5 (2 boys, 1 girl). The kids are the reason I didn't leave 2 years ago.
Originally Posted by athena99
I feel like I threw OM to the wolves and I know I shouldn't care. He will be mad at me and feel betrayed, but that is a good thing - he needs to know there is nothing left between us.

Actually, he threw his wife and your H to the wolves and he has only been exposed. He is the betrayer here. Exposing someone for betraying others is not betrayal. And I applaud you for having your BH do the right thing.

The OM is not the victim here, Athena, he is the perp. He has committed a horrendous act against his wife, his children, your H and your children. The one who deserves your pity is your HUSBAND, not the loser OM. And yes, he is a loser, Athena.

NOW, how will you handle seeing the OM at work? What is your plan for this? You will be a perpetual state of withdrawal every single day you see him at work. Your H will be traumatized every day you go see the OM at work. What is the plan to get out there ASAP?


Quote
However, there are a couple of mutual friends who would plan events and invite all of us - if they knew, they could choose not to invite one set and there wouldn't be any chance of meeting OM or OMW at one of these events. Otherwise I guess we'd all have to avoid these friends since NC would mean we wouldn't know if they are coming.

I would send them all an email letting them know what has happened and ask them to not include you in any invitations. Heck, you might discover that the OM is having an affair with other women in your group. It is not uncommon at all.

Your H should also feel free to expose the affair to his own family members so he can get some much needed support. He really needs that support so if his parents or siblings would be supportive I would encourage him to tell them.

Your children should be told the truth about the affair and not given false explanations about the tension in your home.

Quote
At this point, moving to a new city is looking pretty good.

Good idea!!
Dr. Harley on telling the children:

Quote
The same can be said about telling children about an affair. My experience with the positive outcomes of hundreds of families where an affair has been exposed to children has led me to encourage a betrayed spouse not to fear such exposure. In fact, to mislead children, giving other false explanations as to why their parents are not getting along, causes children to be very confused. When they finally discover the truth, it sets an example to children that dishonesty is sometimes acceptable, making them the judge of when that might occur.

An affair is an attack on children as well as the betrayed spouse. And it's true that children are deeply affected by this form of irresponsible behavior. But it's the act of infidelity that causes children to suffer, not the exposure of it. Facts point us toward solutions. Illusion leads us astray. That's true for children as well as adults.
here

Quote
Q: So, you do suggest telling our 10 year old son? Is this more than he can handle? He never saw any real unhappiness as my husband and I had a very low conflict marriage. I have been protecting our son from this truth. He still has hope that his dad is going to come home.
___________________________________
A: As for your son, the truth will come out eventually, even if you get back together again. And your son won't be emotionally crippled if he hears the truth. It's lies and deception that cripple children. He should know that your husband is choosing his lover over his son's mother. It's a fact. He's willing to ruin a family unit all for what.

When I first started recommending openness about an affair, I wasn't sure what would happen. But I did it because I knew it was the right thing to do. Now I know that for most couples it marks the beginning of recovery.


Quote
The reason that children should know about an affair is that exposing it to the light of day (letting everyone know), helps give the unfaithful spouse a dose of reality. An affair thrives on illusion, and whatever a betrayed spouse can do to eliminate the illusion is justifiable. Mold doesn't grow well in sunlight.
here

Quote
2. How honest should I be about the A? (they are 7 and under)

Tell your children as much as you can about their father's affair, and how it affects you. There are some counselors and lawyers that strongly disagree with me on this issue, but I have maintained that position for over 35 years without any evidence that children are hurt by it. They're hurt by the affair, not by accurate information regarding the affair. Just make sure that you don't combine accurate information with disrespectful judgments. For example, you can say that the OW has taken their father away from you, but you should not say that she is home-wrecker (or worse).
here

Quote
My basic approach to life is that radical honesty is valuable on many different dimensions. It keeps us out of trouble, it helps others understand us, and it helps others avoid the same mistakes we have made. Letting your children know the details of your husband's affair would help them in all three areas.

The more your children know about your husband's affair, the more careful he will be to avoid them in the future.

The more your children know about his affair, the more they will understand what you are going through in your recovery (by the way, you are doing very well -- keep up the good work!).

Being radically honest about your husband's affair with your children would also help them avoid affairs themselves. How it happened and how could it have been prevented is a great object lesson for children. I learned that I was vulnerable for an affair when I learned about my grandfather's affairs. The extraordinary precautions I've taken were directly related to what I learned about him.

It's the approach I've always taken, and while it's difficult, especially for the WS, there's much more upside to it than downside.

Also, Athena, here is DeltaDeceit's post about Dr Harley's advice to her about her husband's continued contact with his affair partner - Dr Harley is a clinical psychologist and the founder of Marriage Builders. This is how you should view your continued contact with the OM every day:

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
"The main reason I have the no contact rule, no contact meaning that if the spouse has had an affair, he or she is to have no contact with the lover for the rest of his or her life, is for two reasons. One is for himself to make sure he doesn't rekindle the relationship and for there to be no opportunity for it to re-emerge. The other, of course, is for the sake of the betrayed spouse, that any contact made is a terrible offense to the betrayed spouse.

It's basically a two-barreled shotgun approach to things; there are two reasons for it, and each of the two reasons are sufficient to create the no contact rule. Together, there is no question this should be the way it is ...

Let's suppose someone were to rape you and it were to be a devastating experience, you would be held for three days, raped repeatedly ... yet you or your husband would have to be around (OW) on certain occasions. You can see how unreasonable that would be. Well, in this case, (OW) would affect you the way your rapist would affect you. (OW) literally affects you the way someone who had done the most disgraceful, despicable thing to you imaginable would affect you.

The pain and suffering you would experience being around (OW) or your husband being around (OW) for any event would so far outweigh (any benefit) that there's just no question that it is something nobody should want you to experience and you should not make yourself experience.

The way I would approach your situation is viewing this as if it were a rapist. That's a very good analogy. A lot of women have told me who have experienced rape and infidelity that the infidelity is worse, is harder for them."
I don't think the kids have any idea anything is going on. In fact, now things are better than they've ever seen.

We have not been visibly affectionate since they were born - we didn't adjust well to parenthood and our marriage sufferred. I had PPD and he didn't know how to help me. I didn't get the outside help I needed either. So, the stage was set for me to become more distant.

Anyway, the last month has seen us have more PDAs (hugging) in front of the kids than ever before. The kids actually said "is this going to become a habit?" in a joking and smiling way. It felt nice. I want them to see that love in a marriage and until now it had not really been there. The kids see us hugging and rush over to join in. I like it.

So, I think telling them now would really confuse them.
No, it sounds like they're confused by the change in your demeanor toward each other. The blanks would be filled if you responded to their confusion over the sudden change in physical affection: "The truth is, kids, that I did something wrong. I made a bad decision to give my affection to someone other than your dad for awhile. I've hurt your dad and we're healing from that hurt. But the good thing is that I love your dad so much that I want to hug him and show him that."
Originally Posted by athena99
So, I think telling them now would really confuse them.

It is just the opposite. Not telling them will confuse them greatly. There is great tension in your marriage right now and not giving them an honest explanation will confuse them.

Athena, your husband has just been dealt a blow that is as traumatic as rape or physical assault. Pretending like your adultery is something GOOD that happened to your family is incredibly obtuse. Your marriage is in serious trouble and your children need to be told the truth about why. Your affair is very as much their business as it is his. Your children will see that something is very off here. Don't whitewash your affair to them. They need to be given truthful explanations for the tension in your home.
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
"The truth is, kids, that I did something wrong. I made a bad decision to give my affection to someone other than your dad for awhile. I've hurt your dad and we're healing from that hurt. But the good thing is that I love your dad so much that I want to hug him and show him that."

And I would be sure and use accurate language when you do this. Call it what it is: ADULTERY. Explain to them why adultery is wrong. Tell them who the OM is so they will know he is the enemy of their family. As a child I was a victim of doublespeak and it is very frightening to a child when a parent steals reality by bastardizing the English language with weasel words and weirdly vague, incomprehensible explanations.

The world makes sense when adults use ACCURATE language in a truthful context. The world needs to make sense to a kid.
Quote
Plus, none of them really know OM or OMW and wouldn't be able to police me anyway.


Understand this, Athena: the OM was not your soul mate that God placed in your life for your pleasure. He was available at a time when your needs were not being met by your BH. It could have been the milkman, if the two of you had time to develop a relationship. If you do not address the needs within your M, you run a high risk of entering into an adulterous relationship again. Being transparent with everyone around you will help ensure that doesn't happen.

Exposure to your circle of friends/family isn't just about keeping an eye on you and OM for the resumption of the A. It's also a way for them to keep an eye on you around their loved ones. Especially the married men.
Athena, I really struggled with telling our children, too. Why involve them in adult issues, I wondered.

Turns out that telling the truth about FWH's A to our kids, our family and friends was a wise choice. I deserved to know the truth, our kids did, family members did, friends did. Here's what I wrote in my thread a few months ago:

Originally Posted by DeltaDriveDeceit
By the way, we did tell our kids about the affair over the weekend. Separately. There were a lot of tears and upset of course, but I was expecting it to go worse than it did.

Our daughter (14) wanted more details than her brother did and talked more about her feelings. We expected this. Our son (12) just cried and cried and had a tough time putting his emotions into words. Their main concern was how we would be proceeding as a couple, as a family, and we reassured them that we love each other and intend to work through these betrayals and heal the wounds caused by the affair and the pursuant lies.

My husband apologized for betraying me and them and for hurting me and them, he talked about his failures, what his marriage vows mean to him, what I mean to him and what he hopes our relationship will look like in 10 years and in 30 years.

We also talked about appropriate boundaries, about how actions have consequences beyond what may even be apparent at the moment and about the importance of telling the truth.

They both said they were very happy we told them the truth about this. See? I don't know how I could have felt differently just last week. Of course they want the truth. Everyone would rather know the truth. Thank you all for clearing all that up for me.
OM and OMW were friends of ours. As such, we do share some close mutual friends and BH and I agree that we should tell them. Should we let OMW know who we are telling or is that against NC? There seem to be rules here that are not intuitive to me and I don't want to mess this up more.
BH got a reply from OMW. She got his email. Do I still need to send a NC letter to OM? Or is NC just understood now?
Ok. I think I do need to send OM a NC letter. He hasn't heard from me that it is over. I need to close that door, right?
Originally Posted by athena99
BH got a reply from OMW. She got his email. Do I still need to send a NC letter to OM? Or is NC just understood now?

NC is never just understood. Yes, you should still send an official NC letter to the OM. Have your H read it and approve it before you send it.

You're doing great Athena! Keep up the good work.
Should we let OMW know who we are telling or is that against NC?----Nope your BH and your decisions have nothing to do with her, this is for your marriage and the actions to protect it are yours. If OMW chose to be on this forum or review the posts she would follow the same advice.

This is for your family and your marriage, do what needs to be done
Originally Posted by athena99
OM and OMW were friends of ours. As such, we do share some close mutual friends and BH and I agree that we should tell them. Should we let OMW know who we are telling or is that against NC? There seem to be rules here that are not intuitive to me and I don't want to mess this up more.

Here's another reason to tell your kids. There are too many people in common. Don't let them find out from someone else. They're also probably going to be confused about the sudden shift in your social circle.
Originally Posted by athena99
BH got a reply from OMW. She got his email. Do I still need to send a NC letter to OM? Or is NC just understood now?

You're not doing this strictly as a firm ending with OM. NC letters are an act of care for your BH. Show him that you are willing to do this as an act of care and contrition.

You write the letter, he approves of it and he mails it. Do you need help wording the letter? There are good examples on this site.
As for the NC letter, Yes send one.

The only additional item may be you hand write the letter and sign it, I have had an occasion when the OM claimed the OW wrote the letter under duress, hand writing helps take away that thought. This assume you know where to deliver it to.
Just a suggestion. Wait to send the NC letter for when you really end contact. It makes no sense to send a nc letter when you are going to see him every day at work.
I would not warn the OM OMW about exposing the mutual friends.

Also be prepared that some friends may drop you. When bad news travels people tend to circle the wagons.

Foxes are not welcomed any where near the hen house. Or home wreckers.

Labels are hard to lose.
athena, regarding telling the children, you said that things are better right now than they ever have been. But reality will set in for you in withdrawal, and for your BH as he processes things. Then there will be a rollercoaster. You need to tell your kids NOW while they can see your closeness. If you wait until things get chaotic...it may make them more insecure. Plus, kids fill in the blanks however they can. We didn't tell our kids right away, and my DD filled in the blanks with some very upsetting stuff. It would have saved her a lot of pain if we had told them right away.

Don't shy away from this.
Athena, you are getting some EXCELLENT advice right now. You have done some things right, go the distance.

ITA with MelodyLane that you should hold off on the BC letter until there is actually NC.

As far as if your children will find out, they will. It could be after one of you die. It could be from someone at school. It could be a drunk relative. You NEVER know. And their world will come crashing down when they realize that they have been lied to for so long. How will they EVER trust ANYTHING that happened in their lives?

You also need to tell your family and friends for YOU. You need to help accountable for your actions. That way you won't remain in a wayward mindset. You also won't be lying to everyone. It has been said that telling the truth is easier than lying because you only have to remember ONE story.

Please Athena, do the right things and actually TRY to save this marriage. Don't just go through the motions.
So, BH just got a note from OMW. OM is not in her house anymore. I don't know the details, but I assume she kicked him out.

This is upsetting to bH. He feels guilty about what has happened to OMW. He is second-guessing sending the email to her instead of OM.

I told him we did the right thing. She needed to know the truth (which she probably already felt). But now we are unsure of what to do next.

I have promised BH I will not try and contact OM. But with OM out on his own right now, he may not have the same respect for OMW.
Do not worry about their relationship only on yours, she has made the best decision by kicking him out of the house, other wise he would still be talking and sleeping with other woman.

So focus on your relationship.
Originally Posted by athena99
So, BH just got a note from OMW. OM is not in her house anymore. I don't know the details, but I assume she kicked him out.

This is upsetting to bH. He feels guilty about what has happened to OMW. He is second-guessing sending the email to her instead of OM.

Your H has nothing to feel guilty about. If she kicked him out it was because of his adultery. Your H only told truth to the victim. That is a good deed.

Quote
I told him we did the right thing. She needed to know the truth (which she probably already felt). But now we are unsure of what to do next.

What to do next is to focus on getting out of that place and getting a new job. That is of utmost importance.

Quote
I have promised BH I will not try and contact OM.

This is meaningless. You will be seeing him tomorrow at work.

Quote
But with OM out on his own right now, he may not have the same respect for OMW.

You are responsible for no contact, not the OM.

Please assure your H he did the compassionate thing by telling the OMW the truth. If he knew his neighbors bookkeeper was embezzling money from him, would he hesistate for a second to warn him? Of course not. It is the same principle here. All he did was warn the woman she was being harmed behind her back. He did a good deed. Please give him a hug and tell him he did good!
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Quote
I have promised BH I will not try and contact OM.

This is meaningless. You will be seeing him tomorrow at work.

Precisely. OM will attempt to communicate with you. He may try to drag you into communicating with him by arguing or making accusations so that you feel the need to defend yourself. This is a common strategy.

Athena, what is your specific plan for dealing with his attempts at contact?

The Harleys say "if you don't have a plan, plan for failure."
Athena,

No real advice from me. I just wanted to throw my support to your H and you through this whole ordeal. As a Recovering BS I can tell you without a doubt that MB, this forum and its vets saved my marriage. My FWW said almost the exact same things you were, but we are proudly in recovery now!

Listen to the advice given and follow the program. For me Melodylane was an angel from heaven with her advice. (Thank you ML)

Prayers to your entire family,

Zeke351
Thank you, Zeke! smile
I am so grateful for everything I have received from this group the last few days. I pretty much let you guide me through the process and do what was necessary because I had no clue.

I know it is only the beginning, but at least it isn't the end of my marriage.
Originally Posted by athena99
I have promised BH I will not try and contact OM.



I would strongly suggest you go to your supervisor, tell him the truth and explain that you must be separated from the OM. Ask him if he can transfer you.

This will be a disaster for your H with you going to work with the loserOM every day. A DISASTER. I would brainstorm ways to avoid all contact with him and to get out of there ASAP.

If the OM does approach you in any way, your H should consider having a come to Jesus with this bum.

Like Delta said, having no plan is a plan to FAIL.
p.s. you are doing great, Athena!! You have made it through these first tough steps like a trooper!! hurray

Tomorrow is going to be a real test of your resolve.
My plan for tomorrow. Yeah - I know I need one. It is pretty much just to sit in my office and ignore any attempts at communication. I can keep my distance and not need to interact with him at work.

BH and I are meeting for lunch to touch base and help keep me focused.

Right after D-Day, OM had said he may be quitting. While I know I shouldn't rely on him to do anything to benefit me right now, I wonder if I can take the cowardly approach and see if he even comes back to work or gives notice right away.
Originally Posted by athena99
My plan for tomorrow. Yeah - I know I need one. It is pretty much just to sit in my office and ignore any attempts at communication. I can keep my distance and not need to interact with him at work.

BH and I are meeting for lunch to touch base and help keep me focused.

Can he come in your office and get you? I would have him make a special visit to your office so the OM knows his deal is done. Another suggestion is exchange cell phones.

I would brainstorm with your H tonight on ways to assure him. This is going to be a nightmare for your husband, I hope you know. Every day you go there is going to be a knife in his heart. You have to end contact somehow. SOON!
I would go to work and walk into your supervisor's office. Tell your supervisor about your affair. Tell him/her that you and your BH have decided to attempt to recover your marriage and that you need their help. You need to stay AWAY from OM. I would even think that a personal day may be in order.

You need to understand that anything that happens to OM are the consequences of HIS choices just as anything that happens to you are yours.

Your BH has NOTHING to feel guilty over. He did the right thing. The right thing isn't usually the easiest thing to do and it doesn't always feel right at first, but as the dust settles, you KNOW you did right.

Athena, PLEASE don't just TRY not to talk to OM. DO NOT talk to OM.

Give YOUR cell phone to your BH. Block OM from ANY avenue of contact, ie EMAIL, IM etc. YOU do this for your BH, your children, your marriage and most importantly YOURSELF.

OM is NOT your soul mate. In reality, you two would be HORRIBLE together. Blending a family is hard under good circumstances, these are HORRIFIC circumstances. Get that fantasy out of your mind and understand that right now, your BEST choice is a recovered marriage with your BH
Sterling advice. I will only add:

OM may try to contact you on your office phone. Have a plan for this. If he calls you, say "I have someone in my office right now. Let me call you right back."

Call BH and tell him. BH can then call OM and tell him to...well, I'm sure BH knows what to tell him. grin

It'll be even better if BH has your cell phone - it'll look like it's you calling him back. Finding out BH has your phone will make OM reluctant to ever call it again. Good stuff!
I gave BH my cell phone - man that was hard. I also plan to block OM from IM and do as you suggest re my office phone.

If OM sends me an email, as much as I may want to read it, I will just have to delete it. Good idea to let BH know if any contact attempts are made.

BH will come get me for lunch.

This is my plan. Hope it works ...
Good for you, Athena. Handing over your cell to your H was a good move.

And absolutely tell him any time any contact is attempted.

Every tie you cut to OM is drawing you closer to your husband, your true partner in life. That is so exciting. A lot of healing needs to take place, but you are setting the stage right now for an honest, loving relationship with him.
It sure would be nice if you could take the week off for Thanksgiving and regroup. Any chance of that happening?
Well, I got to work and no sign of OM. However, as soon as I sat down, my phone rang. Didn't recognize the #, but answered (could be a client). It was OM.

Thank GOD I had been prepared for that. Thank YOU GUYS for giving me that advice. I just said "I'm sorry, I can't talk right now" and hung up. I called BH and asked him to call OM back from my cell. He said there was no answer, but he left a message.

I feel like I am living in a soap opera right now. OM tried to contact me on IM (I had forgotten to block him), but I closed the window (sight unseen) and blocked him.

I am feeling quite in control now, but still a bit nervous as OM is obviously reaching out.

I can take some time off, but BH can't. I don't think I'd feel ok being home all by myself if OM is trying to contact me.

I also feel like such a b*tch. OM was my friend, and up until a few days ago, I was there for him. He has been there for me (so many times) when I needed help and I feel like I have completely abandonded him when he needed the same. However, I am being strong and know that if he is feeling alone, he has a wife who will hopefully be there for him - he just needs to go to her. Of course, if she kicked him out, he may not feel he is welcome there anymore. He is a grown man and responsible for himself, but I feel like a crappy friend right now, even though I am the last person who should be offerring him any kind of support.
Originally Posted by athena99
I also feel like such a b*tch. OM was my friend, and up until a few days ago, I was there for him. He has been there for me (so many times) when I needed help and I feel like I have completely abandonded him when he needed the same. However, I am being strong and know that if he is feeling alone, he has a wife who will hopefully be there for him - he just needs to go to her. Of course, if she kicked him out, he may not feel he is welcome there anymore. He is a grown man and responsible for himself, but I feel like a crappy friend right now, even though I am the last person who should be offerring him any kind of support.

Athena, don't answer your phone and don't turn on IM, because he will keep trying and eventually you will give in.

The OM is not and never has been your "friend." That is a lie. A man who does a married woman is not her friend anymore than the "friend" who hands a gun to a suicidal person. He was just using you. Nor are you his friend. You have been instrumental in destroying his marriage so you have not been a friend to him. If he was your friend, he would have respected you as a married woman and left you alone.

The best thing you can do for the OM is leave him alone so he and his wife can work things out. If you truly care for this loser, as you say you do, then you will leave him alone. Leave him alone. The more you leave him alone, the more likely he is to save his marriage. He can't save his marriage if you are talking to him.

Your H needs to pay a visit to him and contact him EVERY TIME he contacts you. Will he go have a mano to mano with loserboy?
Good for you to stick to the Plan! Keep it up, Athena! hurray

Quote
I also feel like such a b*tch. OM was my friend, and up until a few days ago, I was there for him. He has been there for me (so many times) when I needed help and I feel like I have completely abandonded him when he needed the same. However, I am being strong and know that if he is feeling alone, he has a wife who will hopefully be there for him - he just needs to go to her. Of course, if she kicked him out, he may not feel he is welcome there anymore. He is a grown man and responsible for himself, but I feel like a crappy friend right now, even though I am the last person who should be offerring him any kind of support.


No, don't even consider thinking about this in a foggy way. Think about it in a RECOVERING way:

OM was no friend to you, or he never would have disrespected you and treated you like a tramp. And that's exactly what he did, Athena. Resist the temptation to dress it up and make it more than it was. Soulmates, God's gift to each other, lightning striking your humdrum life...this is all trash-talk to pretty-up the tawdriness of an affair. If he'd really been your friend he never would have allowed your friendship to be destroyed.

And you treated him the same way.

The two of you were sharing support that never should have happened. You have a husband for support. He has a wife.

What happens to his marriage now as a result of his terrible betrayal to his wife is of NO concern to you. It is immaterial to your marriage. He chose to have an affair and endanger his M. While you were the willing accomplice in his betrayal, the ultimate decision to endanger his M was HIS.

I know you feel guilty that there is someone in anguish and you contributed to that anguish. But your guilt is misplaced, Athena. Don't feel guilty that you crawled into the gutter with your 'friend' and now he's feeling the repercussions, feel guilty that you would destroy a woman's marriage. Use that knowledge going forward so that you're never tempted to destroy another woman's life again.

Originally Posted by maritalbliss
I know you feel guilty that there is someone in anguish and you contributed to that anguish. But your guilt is misplaced, Athena. Don't feel guilty that you crawled into the gutter with your 'friend' and now he's feeling the repercussions,


It is tough. But thanks for reminding me why I am doing it. It is really easy to forget to stick to the plan when emotions are flying all about.

Originally Posted by maritalbliss
feel guilty that you would destroy a woman's marriage. Use that knowledge going forward so that you're never tempted to destroy another woman's life again.


Yes - I know that I owe OMW the respect to leave OM alone so she has a chance of recovering her M. I have destroyed her life and I need to stop interfering.
Quote
I know that I owe OMW the respect to leave OM alone so she has a chance of recovering her M. I have destroyed her life and I need to stop interfering.


Repeat as often as necessary. hurray
Originally Posted by athena99
Yes - I know that I owe OMW the respect to leave OM alone so she has a chance of recovering her M. I have destroyed her life and I need to stop interfering.

you got it!! Just keep telling yourself this over and over again. It is in the OM's best interest to save his marriage. So be a real FRIEND to the OM and OMW and do not take his calls.

I did some thinking last night, mostly about how I need to look at OM. Being on this site, I know I need to look at my A completely different than I had been. I need to see OM as a person who was interfering in my M and never respected or cared for me. He didn't choose me over his W and had no intention of ever leaving her.

Then I thought ... that's how OMW and OM are probably looking at me too. At first I felt annoyed that someone could think that of me, but then I realized ... it is true.

I think I knew all along that I would never leave my M. I was just using OM and had no respect for his M or OMW. I took what I wanted and never let the A go farther. I kept OM at a distance so I always had an escape. I suck. I think that may be how I approach my own counselling now - helping me become a better person and learning to respect myself again.

I have to admit, knowing that BH called OM to ask him to stop calling me ... is nice. I feel like BH is protecting me and I haven't felt that way about him in some time. I know it was hard for BH to do, but I am glad he did.
Originally Posted by athena99
I think I knew all along that I would never leave my M. I was just using OM and had no respect for his M or OMW. I took what I wanted and never let the A go farther. I kept OM at a distance so I always had an escape. I suck. I think that may be how I approach my own counselling now - helping me become a better person and learning to respect myself again.

Exactly! Everything we have said about the OM applies to you too and I am reassured you are realizing that fact. You were using him too.

Quote
I have to admit, knowing that BH called OM to ask him to stop calling me ... is nice. I feel like BH is protecting me and I haven't felt that way about him in some time. I know it was hard for BH to do, but I am glad he did.

Your H has really stepped up to the plate here and done a good job of protecting his marriage. Bravo to him!! hurray
Originally Posted by athena99
I did some thinking last night, mostly about how I need to look at OM. Being on this site, I know I need to look at my A completely different than I had been. I need to see OM as a person who was interfering in my M and never respected or cared for me. He didn't choose me over his W and had no intention of ever leaving her.

Then I thought ... that's how OMW and OM are probably looking at me too. At first I felt annoyed that someone could think that of me, but then I realized ... it is true.

I think I knew all along that I would never leave my M. I was just using OM and had no respect for his M or OMW. I took what I wanted and never let the A go farther. I kept OM at a distance so I always had an escape. I suck. I think that may be how I approach my own counselling now - helping me become a better person and learning to respect myself again.

I have to admit, knowing that BH called OM to ask him to stop calling me ... is nice. I feel like BH is protecting me and I haven't felt that way about him in some time. I know it was hard for BH to do, but I am glad he did.

This is all very, very good, Athena.

No, you don't suck. But you used to (and I don't mean that in the sexual way, lol)

It's normal to feel guilt after you begin to realize just how bad your actions were, and just how devastating they were to people around you. Use this in a positive way. You can't take back your actions, but you can commit yourself to positive actions going forward. Direct these toward your H and your M.

Pick something. Anything positive that requires action.

Pick up flowers on the way home from work and give them to your H.

Make his favorite meal.

Take a walk with him.

Run a bath for him.

Think about what brings him happiness. What can you do to contribute to his happiness that requires action, that requires effort?
Maritalbliss!!! rotflmao rotflmao
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Think about what brings him happiness. What can you do to contribute to his happiness that requires action, that requires effort?


BH and I talked about that yesterday - needing to put our own needs aside and focus on meeting the other's needs. Instead of selfishly trying to get our own needs met, if we are each meeting the other's needs, we should be happy. Is that the right way of looking at it?

I also took at peek at the "Marriage Builders 101" link (http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8114_plan.html) and think BH and I need to start thinking about our plan to get back our romantic love. Do we need to start with the questionnaires/forms? I need a curriculum. Or is this too soon? I have had a lot of momentum the last few days and am scared of it all happening too fast (though any slower would not be successful I am sure). I don't want to get ahead of myself here.
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
No, you don't suck. But you used to (and I don't mean that in the sexual way, lol)


Ack! Though it was a bit nasty, thanks for making me smile this morning. smile
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Maritalbliss!!! rotflmao rotflmao

blush
Originally Posted by athena99
I also took at peek at the "Marriage Builders 101" link (http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8114_plan.html) and think BH and I need to start thinking about our plan to get back our romantic love. Do we need to start with the questionnaires/forms?

The questionnaires are a good place to start. Begin with the Emotional Needs questionnaire. It helps you both you assess your needs and also promotes positive conversation between spouses.

But first, have you answered all your husband's questions about your A to his satisfaction? He will probably have more questions at a later time since this is all so new.

This is part of the Policy of Radical Honesty. You will also be working through the Policy of Joint Agreement and the Policy of Undivided Attention.

Originally Posted by DeltaDriveDeceit
But first, have you answered all your husband's questions about your A to his satisfaction? He will probably have more questions at a later time since this is all so new.

This is part of the Policy of Radical Honesty. You will also be working through the Policy of Joint Agreement and the Policy of Undivided Attention.


He hasn't asked a lot of questions yet. Do we need to get the questions all out of the way before we can truly start recovery?
Originally Posted by athena99
[BH and I talked about that yesterday - needing to put our own needs aside and focus on meeting the other's needs. Instead of selfishly trying to get our own needs met, if we are each meeting the other's needs, we should be happy. Is that the right way of looking at it?

oh nononono!! You do not put your own needs aside. The ticket to falling in love with your husband is teaching each other to become experts at meeting each others needs. Happiness comes from him meeting your needs and vice versa.
Originally Posted by athena99
Originally Posted by DeltaDriveDeceit
But first, have you answered all your husband's questions about your A to his satisfaction? He will probably have more questions at a later time since this is all so new.

This is part of the Policy of Radical Honesty. You will also be working through the Policy of Joint Agreement and the Policy of Undivided Attention.


He hasn't asked a lot of questions yet. Do we need to get the questions all out of the way before we can truly start recovery?

It will likely happen. Let him drive that cart, though. Don't be the one to force the conversation, but let him know that the door to laying it all on the table is open.

It's possible he may not ask, too. So, again, don't get hung up on that - just continue to be willing to answer what he feels relevant, and remember to him that whatever feels relevant, IS relevant.

FWW blocked me for a while on this, and I feel like it stunted recovery for a while.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
oh nononono!! You do not put your own needs aside. The ticket to falling in love with your husband is teaching each other to become experts at meeting each others needs. Happiness comes from him meeting your needs and vice versa.


Yeah - that makes more sense blush We each have needs and we need to show each other how to meet them. Where I went wrong was not telling him what I needed and then going outside of my marriage to have them met.

When I said "put our own needs aside" I was thinking about not trying to get my needs met on my own and to let him meet them - it doesn't really make much sense. Thanks for clarifying.
Originally Posted by HeadHeldHigh
It will likely happen. Let him drive that cart, though. Don't be the one to force the conversation, but let him know that the door to laying it all on the table is open.

It's possible he may not ask, too. So, again, don't get hung up on that - just continue to be willing to answer what he feels relevant, and remember to him that whatever feels relevant, IS relevant.

FWW blocked me for a while on this, and I feel like it stunted recovery for a while.


I will let him ask the questions when he is ready. And I will answer them. I am done lying.
Originally Posted by athena99
[Where I went wrong was not telling him what I needed and then going outside of my marriage to have them met.

exactly! Sucking it up and suffering in silence is sacrifice, which makes people vulnerable to affairs. When your H is not meeting your needs, it makes it easy for someone else to come along and do that. So our job as spouses is to MAKE SURE our spouse knows when we are unhappy. A complaint is an opportunity for improvement in a good marriage.

The practice of sacrifice also leads to an entitlement mentality that keeps SCORE. And when the score is not kept even, we feel entitled to have affairs: "i have given and given now it is my turn!!"
Quote
He hasn't asked a lot of questions yet. Do we need to get the questions all out of the way before we can truly start recovery?


Everyone is different. I had to know every last tidbit. I had a million questions. It wasn't that recovery never started. It was part of the initial recovery process. Your BH may not have as many. Also, expect him to go through periods where he has no questions, and then may have a ton. It's part of the processing. That's his timetable. Be patient with that.

He may also ask what sounds like the same question, over and over. Be patient with this as well. Avoid prefacing your answer with "But BH, I already answered that!" Maybe you did. Maybe he needs to hear it a few times in order to process it. Maybe he's at a different point in healing and is better equipped to process it at that point.

Be patient with him.
Well, we exposed to one of our closest friends today. It actually made me feel better to get it out there - something I honestly never thought would happen.

Hmmmmmm - maybe you guys were right about all of this stuff after all smile
Originally Posted by athena99
Well, we exposed to one of our closest friends today. It actually made me feel better to get it out there - something I honestly never thought would happen.

Hmmmmmm - maybe you guys were right about all of this stuff after all smile

Well. You know, it's what we do. grin

My FWH got a great feeling when he started being completely O&H with me, and others. He says it's refreshing to be an open book and not have dark little secrets.


Athena, can I ask how you came about reading SAA? My wife sounds so much like you and I think reading it might give her some hope but it wouldn't be well received coming from me.
Honestly, OM was reading it and told me how much "Sue" in the book sounded like us. And if MB could fix "Sue's" marriage, maybe there was hope for us. I picked it up a while later and read through the first 5 chapters.

When I got to chapter 6 which was about recovery, I stalled. I didn't "feel" like I wanted to fix my marriage. I couldn't read that next part and spent the next day thinking about it. I wanted to know how to get past that lack of desire to fix things, so I started posting here.

I am no expert on this. But I know reading the first 5 chapters gave me some hope. I had also had a passing knowledge of some of the other concepts such as POJA and the Love Bank. But obviously not deep enough to know how to apply them to my marriage.

For me, I think it came down to reading the book and having the right moment hit me. I knew I wanted to tell BH - I even asked some leading questions on the night of D-Day #2, hoping to open the door and make it easier for me to spill it. I still had no "desire", but I was starting to feel the weight of the "right thing" and needed to push myself over the edge so I couldn't go back.

I really thought SAA was a bunch of junk and that my marriage was dead. Until I gave it a chance. NC is the best thing. It's only been one day and already I feel like I accomplished the impossible.

But I also know things are far from recovered. I want my marriage to be amazing and I actually have hope now that it can be. Seriously, less than one week ago I was in a counsellor's office hearing that my marriage was over and to fake it through Christmas, for the kids' sake. My next appt was in Jan where we'd go over the steps of me getting out.

I am SO glad I started posting here and cancelled that Jan appt. I knew I needed to surround myself with people and opinions that matched my goal. Don't be around negative people when you need a positive outcome. I needed to be smothered with the right message and have it repeated over and over until it sunk in. But I was also lucky in that I was receptive to it at the right time.

Even just posting here and venting my feelings about OM was tough, but necessary. I needed to have those feelings shot down and replaced with the truth. NOBODY else in my circle had done that - I'd never given them the opportunity - the only person I talked to was OM (who is the enemy).

I don't think I would have done anything that BH asked. I was feeling so alone. For me, I really did have to pick it up on my own.

I do think your wife should read it, but I don't what would be the best way to suggest it. In my opinion, she has to want to.

Originally Posted by athena99
I really thought SAA was a bunch of junk and that my marriage was dead. Until I gave it a chance. NC is the best thing. It's only been one day and already I feel like I accomplished the impossible.

@athena99: Expect it to get a bit worse before it starts to get better, okay? The withdrawal pains were very difficult for my FWW. She lashed out, was sullen and withdrawn, and it was an extremely difficult time. TELL your husband how you are feeling. Don't throw the OM in his face, but be willing to say if you are sad, happy, feeling withdrawal, etc. And the usual thing to ask for if he wonders how he can help is "hold me", "clean house with me", or something like that. Do something together.

Withdrawal will suck. You're barely scraping the surface of it so far from a long-term affair. Expect it to take three to six months if you're typical. But be willing to ask for help from your betrayed husband, and be willing to meet the needs he asks for as well.

He has plenty to fix on his side of the fence, too. Once you've both read "Surviving An Affair", the next book to read aloud together is "Love Busters". That book will transform your life as you learn to avoid the behaviors that made one another miserable.

You're working on the triage (emergency room) care for your marriage right now. You've ended the affair. Your husband is informed. You're quitting your job if OM doesn't. The next step is to establish your three Conditions For Recovery together. These usually are:

1. No contact for life with the other man.

2. Decide with your husband on "extraordinary precautions" you can put into place to prevent recidivism. At a minimum, these usually include
A) Changing your phone numbers
B) Changing your email addresses
C) If social networking was used to further the affair, abandon the social networking sites.
D) Absolute radical honesty with your husband about your feelings and experiences throughout the day. Don't spare him your struggles with NC; he needs to know.
E) Complete transparency into all your business. If a computer was used to further the affair, set up keyloggers on your computers that will mail him a report every morning of all your activity. Make sure your phone records are all sent to him, not you. Swap phones regularly so he knows you have nothing to hide on your phone.

3. Immediate commence work together on a program for marital recovery, and plan on doing the coursework together over the next year or two. Dr. Harley outlines several such programs at http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi9000_courses.html . If both of you are motivated to recover together, then usually his recommended course of "Surviving An Affair", "Love Busters", "His Needs, Her Needs", and the "Five Steps to Romantic Love" workbook get the job done. It did for my FWW and me.


Once your triage is done -- NC in place, NC letter sent to OM (by your husband, not by you!), you & OM no longer working together, EPs decided on, and program for marital recovery commenced -- you'll start hearing more about things like Care, Protection, Time, and Honesty. Remember that until No-Contact is firmly in place -- it's not yet since you work together! -- you're still in the emergency room together, and the bleeding hasn't stopped.

Good luck in your recovery. Once you're completely over your longings for OM in six months or so, take a look at the "In Recovery" forum on this board.
How's it going today, Athena?
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Quote
He hasn't asked a lot of questions yet. Do we need to get the questions all out of the way before we can truly start recovery?


Everyone is different. I had to know every last tidbit. I had a million questions. It wasn't that recovery never started. It was part of the initial recovery process. Your BH may not have as many. Also, expect him to go through periods where he has no questions, and then may have a ton. It's part of the processing. That's his timetable. Be patient with that.

He may also ask what sounds like the same question, over and over. Be patient with this as well. Avoid prefacing your answer with "But BH, I already answered that!" Maybe you did. Maybe he needs to hear it a few times in order to process it. Maybe he's at a different point in healing and is better equipped to process it at that point.

Be patient with him.

And be prepared for your own answers to change. As the fog lifts and dissipates, your own view of events is going to change.

I experienced this with FWW.

I suggest you look at some of the fogbabble, or threads about what waywards say. There is honesty, and there is temporal honesty. What you may see as truth now, may not be truth in a month, in two months, in three months.

Examine some fogbabble statements, see if you "feel" that way, and ask yourself why. Apply MB principals, and see if that still makes sense.
Well, a bit has happened.

OM had called my office again and I let the voice mail pick it up. I called BH and told him. I deleted the voice mail without listening and BH called OM to ask him to please stop calling me. OM then texted my phone (which BH had) to tell him the only reason he was calling was to ask if I was quitting. If I didn't quit, he would. BH replied that I had no plans to quit.

OMW emailed BH that OM had informed her that he tried to contact me in the morning. I guess having BH call him back did the trick and got him to be honest with OMW. I felt like crap ignoring his calls, but I know I can't be there for him anymore.

BH and OMW have been talking a bit and BH is unsure whether he should be making me aware of their conversations or letting me read them. I don't know either. I am curious, but I also think it may violate NC. Suggestions?

OM was in the office last night and left some things on my desk - some pictures of my kids I had given him and a little note saying "Good Luck". I told BH about this.

I feel like I am getting away with less upheaval in my life than OM and OMW and I feel really bad for them. I know I need to focus on my own marriage, but even BH admits that it is hard to stop caring about what happens to them.

Having BH call OM felt really good to me and I have to admit it sparked a bit of attraction (which I thought was DEAD!). I have told BH how it made me feel (hoping he can repeat this kind of protective/sexy behaviour).

BH has complete access to my email and my phone. I will look for other areas to be transparent too. The less temptation and opportunity, the better. I have been trying to tell him how I am feeling - and I'm doing ok at that. Need to get better though.

Yesterday was a busy and anxious day. Today feels quieter and sadder. I know withdrawal will hit me in weird ways. Just need to keep BH informed and work through it.

*sigh*
Quote
BH and OMW have been talking a bit and BH is unsure whether he should be making me aware of their conversations or letting me read them. I don't know either. I am curious, but I also think it may violate NC. Suggestions?

Their conversations should not include you. That would be a form of contact. They also should not spend a lot of time establishing a relationship with each other. They are vulnerable to having their own affair with each other. What starts out as comparing notes leads to commiserating and possibly bonding. Their conversations need to be brief and related strictly to communicating evidence of either of you breaking NC.
I hope the OM quits. His BW is probably pushing for NC on her end.
Originally Posted by athena99
BH has complete access to my email and my phone. I will look for other areas to be transparent too. The less temptation and opportunity, the better. I have been trying to tell him how I am feeling - and I'm doing ok at that. Need to get better though.

Yesterday was a busy and anxious day. Today feels quieter and sadder. I know withdrawal will hit me in weird ways. Just need to keep BH informed and work through it.

You are doing GREAT!! And please give your H a BIG TEXAS HUG from me for manning up and defending his marriage!! He did a superb job of contacting the OM and should continue to contact him EVERY TIME he tries to contact you. All hell should break loose for the OM every time that happens. His wife should be notified and he should be called and warned off.

Please show this to your H and have him send this to the loserOM:

Originally Posted by athena99
Having BH call OM felt really good to me and I have to admit it sparked a bit of attraction (which I thought was DEAD!). I have told BH how it made me feel (hoping he can repeat this kind of protective/sexy behaviour).


I hope all you other betrayed husbands are reading this!!!
Originally Posted by athena99
Having BH call OM felt really good to me and I have to admit it sparked a bit of attraction (which I thought was DEAD!). I have told BH how it made me feel (hoping he can repeat this kind of protective/sexy behaviour).


I feel the same way, Athena. I love, love, love when my husband protects me. It's such a comforting feeling and draws me closer to him.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Please show this to your H and have him send this to the loserOM


He thought it was funny and said he liked that movie, Tombstone.

Thanks!
athena,

I apologize I have not read your entire thread but parts of it. One statement you made really struck me as I am sure it did others. YOu said when you first started posting:
Quote
If OM and I were not already married to other people, our relationship would be applauded for how wonderful it is. We already practice most of the stuff on this site and are very good communicators with each other. We have had an EA for over 10 years and it has been PA for 2. I feel sometimes like he's been there throughout my entire marriage and I didn't realise my marriage had never met my needs.
Now I am not sure how long you have been married, but a 10 year long EA has basically doomed your feelings for your H from the start. Your marriage has been a lie since before your children were born. You have lied to your H, and that means he has had no clue how to meet your needs and further probably got negative feedback.

You mentioned that it felt good for your H to stick for you and the marriage, has it occured to you that he would have earlier if he had known what you wanted/needed and what you were doing?

Has it occured to you yet, it may not until withdrawal is finished, that he is sticking up for you, his children, and this marriage in the face of a 10 year affair? Athena, in my book that takes guts. Lots of guts.

You seem to have found a man of surprising strenght and commitment. I know right now your focus is on OM and his troubles, but as you go through withdrawal, you are going to see your H has it much worse in dealing with what you have done.

My guess? You two can make this marriage something special. your H seems to have the guts to stick it out and try and he seems to have the love for you to endure recovery. The question remains if you have the strength to carry your part of the load as recovery starts. By the way it won't start until all contact with OM is severed and you have gone through withdrawal.

Hang in there.

JL
Originally Posted by athena99
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Please show this to your H and have him send this to the loserOM


He thought it was funny and said he liked that movie, Tombstone.

Thanks!

That is your husband!! laugh
Well, I am very proud to announce that BH has joined up - he is Helo. He has started his own thread in this forum, which I think I need to stay out of, right?

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2445830

Anyway, I think it is good timing as today was a rough day and I find myself in a very sad mood. There is guilt about OM and some longing for him - I know this is bad, but I can't shake it right now. I am trying to be positive about the work we've already done, but I found myself getting weepy on the way home from work today. I thought I saw OM's car a bunch of times and my heart leapt, then I felt sick.

I will talk to BH about it tonight as he needs to know what I am feeling. I don't think I'm sliding all the way back, but I definately feel some angst and fogginess again. It feels different now though - before I didn't talk to him about it much and now I know I can/should, so it doesn't seem as lonely.

However, the fogginess says that he won't "get it" and I will be left wanting support that he doesn't know how to give. It's not just meeting the need, it's meeting the need "how" I want it met. I'm not a very patient person and I'm sure the recovery process will require lots of it. I think it is time to start reading the books together and see if that helps.
ABSOLUTELY read SAA First and start to follow the steps outlined for recovery. You know, the part you didn't want to read before. wink

Also, have you thought about getting on any ADs? It may help you with the withdrawal symptoms.
Originally Posted by athena99
However, the fogginess says that he won't "get it" and I will be left wanting support that he doesn't know how to give. It's not just meeting the need, it's meeting the need "how" I want it met. I'm not a very patient person and I'm sure the recovery process will require lots of it. I think it is time to start reading the books together and see if that helps

Athena, the most important thing you can do right now to cause you to fall in love the FASTEST is to sit down tonight and schedule out 30 hours per week of undivided attention time together - without kids and without TV or friends. Go line up baby sitters and start planning dates. Sit down together and make up a schedule that looks like this:

DATE TIME ACTIVITY TOTAL

11-24-10 6-8 dinner at applebees 2
11-25-10 thanksgiving 0
11-26-10 11-5 lunch, museum 6
11-27-10 1-4 drive through country - hotel 3

You get the idea, schedule this until you have 30 hours planned for the week. STICK TO THIS SCHEDULE. This time should be spent meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs of affection, conversation, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment. The more sex you have, the more bonded you will feel.

This will be AMAZINGLY effective in helping you fall in love again.

This should be implemented ASAP. Go sit down with Helo and plan this out and start lining up babysitters.
Athena, the sooner you start this new habit of spending time with your H and falling in love with him, the faster you will forget the loserOM.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Athena, the most important thing you can do right now to cause you to fall in love the FASTEST is to sit down tonight and schedule out 30 hours per week of undivided attention time together - without kids and without TV or friends. Go line up baby sitters and start planning dates.

Athena,

PLEASE read, read again and read again! This is the absolute truth. This made so much of a difference between my FWW and I it was unbelievable! ML really knows what she is talking about.

Good Luck and HAVE SOME FUN too!

Zeke351
Originally Posted by Scotland
ABSOLUTELY read SAA First and start to follow the steps outlined for recovery. You know, the part you didn't want to read before. wink

You got me! I don't think I was ready to move on in the book until I had accepted NC. Now, I finally read the chapter on "Rule of Protection" and the beginning of "Rule of Care".

I think we are good on the protection stuff. Unless I am in a b*tchy mood, we rarely exhibit love busters. My worst is AO and his are DJ.

HOWEVER, I noticed right away that we exhibit a lot of the love busters with the kids. That is not cool. I think we need to factor in some time to start working out how to fix our relationships with them too. I found a book called "The 5 Love Languages for Children" and will give that a read. Dealing with the kids some days exhausts us because we have (no surprise) taught them to be disrespectful to us. And I know it makes BH less attractive to me when I see him lose his patience with one of the kids.

Then, I went through the needs and made my list. It made a lot of sense:
1 - conversation
2 - family committment
3 - physical attractiveness
4 - sexual fulfillment
5 - affection

I found it tough at first because I wanted to think of OM as I determined what needs I had. I had some trouble putting BH as the one meeting these needs. But the explanations in Appendix A of the book were so clear and after the first read I had already picked my top 5, just needed to put them in order.

I guess the next step is the Emotional Needs Questionnaire to see how BH currently stands in meeting my needs. I gave him the same homework and we'll review it together tomorrow night.

Babysitters are hard for us to come by. And with the kids having busy sport schedules that drag us in different directions some nights, we barely get 1-2 hours a night after we finally wrestle the kids into bed. And those 1-2 hours come at expense of much-needed sleep.

Originally Posted by Scotland
Also, have you thought about getting on any ADs? It may help you with the withdrawal symptoms.


Good call, but I am already on antidepressants. In a positive interaction with a counsellor early this year, she was able to diagnose me and suggest I get a prexcription from my family doctor. Leading a double-life was taking a toll on me mentally and emotionally to the point where I was having very dark thoughts. AD seriously saved me and I will be taking them until our recovery is well underway. They didn't leave me loopy or make me feel numb, but they did an amazing job of getting rid of the anxiety that the A would bring on. I had lost my ability to cope with the little things and when you are hiding everything, there are a lot of little lies to manage in addition to the every day details of a regular life.

Best part is that I'm not so foggy after doing my homework for the night. This is actually helping wink Yay!
Originally Posted by athena99
However, the fogginess says that he won't "get it" and I will be left wanting support that he doesn't know how to give. It's not just meeting the need, it's meeting the need "how" I want it met.


So, I have to admit that after actually reading the Emotional Needs questionnaire, I see that DrH actually does address the quality and not just the quantity of meeting the need. It helps to actually READ the book and not assume it doesn't do me any good. Yeesh. doh2
Who watched your kids while you were spending time with the OM? Your BH?

Find a sitter. Make that a new priority. Create a new life around that......your kids being cared for while you and your H care for each other.
Athena,

I don't usually offer this thread to someone so new and just out of the affair and into no contact. Sometimes I do to the BS. But, somehow when reading your thread I seemed to feel that perhaps you would benefit from knowing what a timeline from an another Ws was.

I sure others will tell you and continue to tell you that your withdrawal and recovery will not happen overnight. But, in a few months you are going to feel better but there will be ups and downs (the rollercoaster). Given that your affair was almost as long as your marriage, things will probably take longer than normal.

But, in any case here is a time line from SKM. One of my favorites from years gone by. SKM's Chronicles

God Bless,

JL
Originally Posted by athena99
As far as how I found out about MB. Well 2 ways really.

One, I was doing a lot of internet searches during my PA to figure out what to do. I ran across the site and did a bit of reading. It scared me. But didn't scare me straight.

Second, when OM sent the NC letter to me after D-Day, he listed some of the links to here. He and OMW have been looking at this site. They have been reading the books too.
This worries me, Athena. You're just starting NC, still in the withdrawal phase where a WS can be wistful for for OM's attention, and yet it seems that this forum could be a platform for communication for you & OM, even if you don't intend that at this moment. I might suggest that in your case, you may wish to consider getting a new posting name chosen by your husband, and eliminating some personal details from your sig line, so that your BH (whose feelings need to be paramount now) can have confidence that there is no surreptitious communication between you & OM on these boards.
Originally Posted by athena99
[I guess the next step is the Emotional Needs Questionnaire to see how BH currently stands in meeting my needs. I gave him the same homework and we'll review it together tomorrow night.

Babysitters are hard for us to come by. And with the kids having busy sport schedules that drag us in different directions some nights, we barely get 1-2 hours a night after we finally wrestle the kids into bed. And those 1-2 hours come at expense of much-needed sleep.


Athena, you must make this work. Hire babysitters, have friends take the kids. Do what you need to do. It is in your children's best interest to save your marriage. Your marriage is their LIFE. That comes FIRST. So put it first.

And set your kids down and tell them WHY. They need to hear it from YOU and your H, and not from someone else.

Secondly, it is good to know each other's ENs, but you need to focus on the top 4 INTIMATE emotional needs. You are not going to fall in love over family committment or domestic support. What will cause you to fall in love is 20+ hours of affection, sexual fulfillment, conversation and recreational companionship. THIS PROGRAM DOES NOT WORK WITHOUT THAT STEP.

So, print up these articles and you both read them so you fully understand your mission:

Affection

Sexual Fulfillment

Conversation

Recreational Companionship

Policy of Undivided Attention
Originally Posted by GloveOil
Originally Posted by athena99
As far as how I found out about MB. Well 2 ways really.

One, I was doing a lot of internet searches during my PA to figure out what to do. I ran across the site and did a bit of reading. It scared me. But didn't scare me straight.

Second, when OM sent the NC letter to me after D-Day, he listed some of the links to here. He and OMW have been looking at this site. They have been reading the books too.
This worries me, Athena. You're just starting NC, still in the withdrawal phase where a WS can be wistful for for OM's attention, and yet it seems that this forum could be a platform for communication for you & OM, even if you don't intend that at this moment. I might suggest that in your case, you may wish to consider getting a new posting name chosen by your husband, and eliminating some personal details from your sig line, so that your BH (whose feelings need to be paramount now) can have confidence that there is no surreptitious communication between you & OM on these boards.


The links OM/OMW shared with me were to the information about MB, not about the forums. I guess it would be naive to think that they wouldn't be reading and/or posting too. I couldn't imagine communicating with OM here and "flaunting" the A in front of these good people. I know I have made stupid decisions in the past but have confidence that this would be something I could avoid.

I will tidy up my sig - I was actually worried that would be too much information. Thanks for the tip.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Secondly, it is good to know each other's ENs, but you need to focus on the top 4 INTIMATE emotional needs. You are not going to fall in love over family committment or domestic support. What will cause you to fall in love is 20+ hours of affection, sexual fulfillment, conversation and recreational companionship. THIS PROGRAM DOES NOT WORK WITHOUT THAT STEP.


I read this and thought "but I'm following the book - how could I be getting it wrong already?!?!". So, I just took a look at the next chapter "Rule of Time" and see that you are totally right - I'm just a slow reader!

Thanks for pointing this out though. It could have been another week or so before I got to that chapter and you are right that we should start making time for eachother right now.

So far, we have only exposed to one friend and I think I am going to have a POJA chat with BH today about exposing to our close neighbor. They would be a close ally in helping with childcare and us getting our much-needed time in. Plus, we could reciprocate and give them some time together (they have a new baby and she has admitted to not having time for anything lately). The kids like playing together, so it makes sense.
I wish that Harley would do more to emphasize that point! It is easily missed. It didn't really sink in for me until I read in one of his books, Effective Marriage Counseling, that his program "doesn't work" without that step. I had never seen him make that point in such clear terms before.
*** FOG WARNING ***

Closure with the OP ... I guess that is not supposed to happen, right? No "nice knowing you" or "have a good life" or "we made a big mistake, I'm sorry it all went down this way"?

NC ... real NC for the rest of our lives. Seems so unfortunate, yet I do know why. If I ever saw OM again, it would stir feelings I shouldn't have. It just sucks that a good friendship went to h&ll because we expressed feelings for each other so long ago. And because of that, we've ruined other friendships (our own spouses used to be friends) and made other people uncomfortable with us. The true consequences are finally becoming clear and I feel SO INCREDIBLY STUPID that I never really got it before.

Some regret ... finally.
Originally Posted by athena99
*** FOG WARNING ***

Closure with the OP ... I guess that is not supposed to happen, right? No "nice knowing you" or "have a good life" or "we made a big mistake, I'm sorry it all went down this way"?

click here grin
Originally Posted by athena99
*** FOG WARNING ***

Closure with the OP ... I guess that is not supposed to happen, right? No "nice knowing you" or "have a good life" or "we made a big mistake, I'm sorry it all went down this way"?

NC ... real NC for the rest of our lives. Seems so unfortunate, yet I do know why. If I ever saw OM again, it would stir feelings I shouldn't have. It just sucks that a good friendship went to h&ll because we expressed feelings for each other so long ago. And because of that, we've ruined other friendships (our own spouses used to be friends) and made other people uncomfortable with us. The true consequences are finally becoming clear and I feel SO INCREDIBLY STUPID that I never really got it before.

Some regret ... finally.

NC isn't unfortunate, it is required, and you know that. Yes, it does suck (I won't address that word further grin ) The two of you made a terrible decision, over and over and over. And now you're dealing with the fallout, and one part of that is losing a friendship you abused.

So there you go. Dust off your hands and say it out loud "I threw away that friendship for totally selfish reasons." Own your actions. Then immediately replace that thought with a loving thought of your H. Do soemthing nice for him as a way of compensating for your actions. I don't know - buy him a new tie on your way home from work? Surprise him with his favorite takeout meal and eat it in front of the fireplace (with a fire in there, makes it more romantic grin ) Meet him for lunch and go to the park...the idea being to create an action for your marriage to replace the static 'stinking thinking' about your A.

Action, not navel-gazing and regret over the past, Athena.

I'm not knocking you, you're doing great. A little foggy, but that's to be expected at this point.
*** REALITY WARNING ***

Dear Mr. and Mrs. Helo I now pronounce you DIVORCED

This is the reality that you face. Remember you are not RECOVERED. Don't fantasize about this. Reread the NC and the reasons for it. The OM was not a friend.

This man purposefully went out of his way to hurt you, H, and all your children. He is a drunk driver that hit the car you and your family were in.

Better yet, you were the drunk driver and purposefully drove drunk and hit the car the OMW and family was in. Where is your empathy and remorse for her and her family?

I can't find the link for this. But by thinking about OM you could be extending your withdrawal.

People will only be remembered for the mistakes they make if they never do anything to learn from them.
Originally Posted by athena99
*** FOG WARNING ***

Closure with the OP ... I guess that is not supposed to happen, right? No "nice knowing you" or "have a good life" or "we made a big mistake, I'm sorry it all went down this way"?

NC ... real NC for the rest of our lives. Seems so unfortunate, yet I do know why. If I ever saw OM again, it would stir feelings I shouldn't have. It just sucks that a good friendship went to h&ll because we expressed feelings for each other so long ago. And because of that, we've ruined other friendships (our own spouses used to be friends) and made other people uncomfortable with us. The true consequences are finally becoming clear and I feel SO INCREDIBLY STUPID that I never really got it before.

Some regret ... finally.
Not enough regret yet. I think there's been a little too much back-patting going on here. Athena, I'm here to tell you to KNOCK IT OFF.

twoxfour

REALITY CHECK: There IS no "closure." It's not something that's merely "not supposed" to happen, as you put it; rather, it's something that DOESN'T happen, and CAN'T happen -- at least not the way you're thinking of it. The only progress you can make toward "closure" is recovering your marriage. That requires you to be more worried about your husband's feelings than about your own OR the other man's.

QUIT fantasizing about what you'd say to OM, about what he might say to you, QUIT searching in your mind for just the right words to "close the chapter." That mental game is just wasted time taken from your life. I know -- I have been there. No matter how such a contact would go down, it would still involve you & OM seeking, in some way, one another's affirmation, blessing, whatever you want to call it, along with any forgiveness that you might be prompted to ask of one another. It's the kind of a discussion where adultery partners find ways to still be nice to one another, to still acknowledge one another, to still share confidences in a way that never should've begun. It's where they say stupid stuff (as my OW did) like "If you ever find yourself alone someday, look me up." It's another hit of the crack-pipe for the affairees. It would be CONTACT.

Quit pining for it. It is insult-added-to-injury for your poor husband. You're d*amned right, you're still in the fog. I've been there, where you are. The way you go "No Contact" is, you DO NOT HAVE CONTACT. It works -- it's the only thing that works. Now stop with the self-pity -- it's Thanksgiving Day, for crying out loud; go do something nice for your husband.
Great post, GO!

Nothing to add except that "closure" means you CLOSE the door, not open it. Contacting the OM again would be a disaster. And it would be extremely hurtful and disrespectful to your H.

Have you told your children and close family members yet?
I am the wicked witch of the west and exposure is the water.

We are exposing and it hurts like hell. But I do need to take responsibility for my actions. This is the part I spent the last few years trying to avoid - the consequences.

While it feels good to tell the truth, I am cringing at what the reactions will be. But I can't control how other people see me, I just have to hope that they can give me their patience and understanding as I promise to be truthful from now on. Exposing will help the issues with NC - some people are asking about OM and I have to play dumb. It will be nice to give them the truth.

Thing is, I have never witnessed something like this from the outside, so I have no frame of reference. I've never seen anyone come clean about something like this - I've only ever heard the rumor and gossip.

But I know I need to be respectful of my relationships with these people and be truthful before they hear a juicy piece of news floating around. Not how I want my close friends/family to find out.

humbly yours,
athena
Oh, and I am clear on the NC. Every time I think about not being there to support OM, I think about OMW and how that is her job. I was never supposed to take on that role and the only respectful thing to do is back away - cold turkey.
Originally Posted by athena99
While it feels good to tell the truth, I am cringing at what the reactions will be. But I can't control how other people see me, I just have to hope that they can give me their patience and understanding as I promise to be truthful from now on. Exposing will help the issues with NC - some people are asking about OM and I have to play dumb. It will be nice to give them the truth.

People will respect you for this, Athena]

Originally Posted by athena99
But I know I need to be respectful of my relationships with these people and be truthful before they hear a juicy piece of news floating around. Not how I want my close friends/family to find out.

You will be judged for having an affair, [as you should be] but you will also be judged for coming clean, making amends and taking the necessary steps to recover your marriage. Character does not come from being PERFECT [none of us are!], but from how we handle our shortcomings. The way you are handling this shows the depth of your character.

Please tell your kids before they hear stories from someone else. And yes, they will hear about it. This will be a great life lesson for your kids. Here is how Dr Harley explains it:

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
My basic approach to life is that radical honesty is valuable on many different dimensions. It keeps us out of trouble, it helps others understand us, and it helps others avoid the same mistakes we have made. Letting your children know the details of your husband's affair would help them in all three areas.
The more your children know about your husband's affair, the more careful he will be to avoid them in the future.
The more your children know about his affair, the more they will understand what you are going through in your recovery (by the way, you are doing very well -- keep up the good work!).
Being radically honest about your husband's affair with your children would also help them avoid affairs themselves. How it happened and how could it have been prevented is a great object lesson for children. I learned that I was vulnerable for an affair when I learned about my grandfather's affairs. The extraordinary precautions I've taken were directly related to what I learned about him.
It's the approach I've always taken, and while it's difficult, especially for the WS, there's much more upside to it than downside.
Originally Posted by athena99
Oh, and I am clear on the NC. Every time I think about not being there to support OM, I think about OMW and how that is her job. I was never supposed to take on that role and the only respectful thing to do is back away - cold turkey.

Agree. Your focus should be on supporting your victim, YOUR HUSBAND. He needs your support now. The loserOM has caused great harm to your husband and your children. Please render first aide to your HUSBAND.

How is your husband, Helo the Hero, doing?
Helo, my hero, is stepping up. He is exposing to some of his friends so they aren't surprised when the gossip starts. So far he has received great support.

We still need to find some time together for undivided attention, but I hope to start fixing that soon.
The kids ... that one is something Helo and I struggle with.

However, just a couple conversations I have had with the 7 year old lately about being respectful and understanding that consequences have actions ... make me realize that he will understand some parts of a discussion.

Helo and I both agree that children should not be bothered with grownup issues - but there is an element of this that is appropriate for them. "I made a big mistake and I can't undo it. All I can do now is apologize, tell the truth from now on, and work at being respectful and loving to my family."

I don't want to beat around the bush, but I also don't want to trouble them with details they are much too young to handle. They don't need to be spouting some of these words (affair, infidelity, adultery) in the school yard. Even if I impress upon them that it is a private family matter, they will still likely repeat things they've heard - they are just kids.

I do not want them finding out from anyone else but us, but I have no idea how to tell them in the proper way. I do think telling them separately is a good idea - they tend to feed off each other and I want them to each have their own reactions and opportunity to ask their own questions.

Any links for suggestions would be appreciated.
Originally Posted by athena99
Helo and I both agree that children should not be bothered with grownup issues - but there is an element of this that is appropriate for them. "I made a big mistake and I can't undo it. All I can do now is apologize, tell the truth from now on, and work at being respectful and loving to my family."

Well, I would not tell them this story, that doesn't make any sense. That will just confuse them. Your kids ARE bothered by grown up issues, because this affair very much affects thier family. They will be better equipped to handle it if you tell them the truth. It is lies and adultery that harm little children, not the truth.

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
The same can be said about telling children about an affair. My experience with the positive outcomes of hundreds of families where an affair has been exposed to children has led me to encourage a betrayed spouse not to fear such exposure. In fact, to mislead children, giving other false explanations as to why their parents are not getting along, causes children to be very confused. When they finally discover the truth, it sets an example to children that dishonesty is sometimes acceptable, making them the judge of when that might occur.

An affair is an attack on children as well as the betrayed spouse. And it's true that children are deeply affected by this form of irresponsible behavior. But it's the act of infidelity that causes children to suffer, not the exposure of it. Facts point us toward solutions. Illusion leads us astray. That's true for children as well as adults.

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
Q: So, you do suggest telling our 10 year old son? Is this more than he can handle? He never saw any real unhappiness as my husband and I had a very low conflict marriage. I have been protecting our son from this truth. He still has hope that his dad is going to come home.
___________________________________
A: As for your son, the truth will come out eventually, even if you get back together again. And your son won't be emotionally crippled if he hears the truth. It's lies and deception that cripple children. He should know that your husband is choosing his lover over his son's mother. It's a fact. He's willing to ruin a family unit all for what.

When I first started recommending openness about an affair, I wasn't sure what would happen. But I did it because I knew it was the right thing to do. Now I know that for most couples it marks the beginning of recovery.

Don't beat around the bush, use straightforward, truthful language. Tell them mommy had an affair with JoeBlow from work and she is very sorry for the pain she caused to daddy. It is wrong for married people to have an affair. Explain to them why adultery is immoral. Don't confuse them with weasely explanations. That just confuses kids.

Quote
I don't want to beat around the bush, but I also don't want to trouble them with details they are much too young to handle. They don't need to be spouting some of these words (affair, infidelity, adultery) in the school yard. Even if I impress upon them that it is a private family matter, they will still likely repeat things they've heard - they are just kids.

Better for them to hear it from you than from others when word gets out. Depending on a child's maturity level, most children 5 and up can understand the concept of adultery and why it is wrong. Steve Harley has told parents to tell children as young as 5.

I will put a call out to SMB, who told her 5 children about the affair.
Quote
Helo and I both agree that children should not be bothered with grownup issues - but there is an element of this that is appropriate for them. "I made a big mistake and I can't undo it. All I can do now is apologize, tell the truth from now on, and work at being respectful and loving to my family."


The notion that adultery is an adult issue is misguided at best. Stocks and bonds are adult issues (unless your kid's a financial wiz, of course.) Adultery is a family issue. It directly affects your family.

Wow.

That's all I can say right now. I exposed to my neighbors and work today. Both went SO much better than I expected.

My neighbor was so supportive - she is such a wonderful person. I felt like an alcoholic going through the step where they need to apologize. I had been distancing myself from her because I was in the fog and not sure if I would be around much longer. We talked for a good long time and while she felt sad that we were going through this, she could tell I was excited and that made her happy for me. She is going to be a big help in watching the kids so BH and I can get some time together.

Then work. They are looking out for themselves and asked me to consider just how much exposure I wanted in the workplace. Perhaps just telling my managers is enough - what is the protocol? Do I need to expose to all of my co-workers? Or perhaps just the ones who I am closest to personally and who I don't want finding out in other ways. I want to respect my manager's first reaction not to expose it too much, but it does kinda go against the MB guidelines, right?

At any rate, it went very well and I am so proud of myself for taking responsibility today. Still lots of people to tell (including family) but that will come soon too.
I want to touch on telling your kids. What is your role as a parent? I believe our roles, as parents, is to teach our children how to be productive members of society. We need to TEACH our children how to be GROWN UPS. How do we do this? We do this by passing on our values and beliefs of what is right and wrong. Have you ever spoken to your children about what marriage is? Have you ever explained to them that when you are married, you don't "date" other people?

My children are 7 and 10. They were 6 and 9 last year, when I exposed to them. I told them about their father's affair. They KNOW that it is WRONG. They don't love their father any less. They understand that his actions went against everything that BOTH my WH and I had taught them. I can only imagine the confusion they would have had had they not been told the truth.

The children WILL have questions. You need to take this time to show them what you do when you do something wrong.
Quote
Then work. They are looking out for themselves and asked me to consider just how much exposure I wanted in the workplace. Perhaps just telling my managers is enough - what is the protocol? Do I need to expose to all of my co-workers? Or perhaps just the ones who I am closest to personally and who I don't want finding out in other ways. I want to respect my manager's first reaction not to expose it too much, but it does kinda go against the MB guidelines, right?


Scotty touched on telling your kids. I'll talk to you about work.
First of all, remember one thing: exposure is intended to kill the affair. You need to tell whomever you need to tell in order to make sure the A is dead and NC can be ensured. If it isn't possible to do so in accordance with your managers' wishes, you will need to leave that job. NC is paramount to any manager's wish.
I have to believe that your managers will want to do whatever it takes to keep you.
I was quite adamant with my managers about NC and they were very supportive. They are supportive of dealing with my need for a transfer to deal with NC should OM decide not to leave work. I think they are just concerned about the "drama" in the workplace should I go nuclear there.

I am quite sure the A is dead and that I will keep up with NC. If OM returns to work, I am confident my managers will help me deal with it. If he doesn't, then I think the current level of exposure at work is good.
Originally Posted by athena99
Wow.

That's all I can say right now. I exposed to my neighbors and work today. Both went SO much better than I expected.

My neighbor was so supportive -

People tend to be very, very understanding and forgiving when exposure of misdeeds and apologies come with honesty, sincerity and evidence of changed ways.

What people disrespect and won't/shouldn't accept are cover ups, partial truths, excuses, blame shifting, lack of responsibility taking and lack of reparation.

This is true for our children as well.

They are no different.
Originally Posted by athena99
I was quite adamant with my managers about NC and they were very supportive. They are supportive of dealing with my need for a transfer to deal with NC should OM decide not to leave work. I think they are just concerned about the "drama" in the workplace should I go nuclear there.

Athena, the only folks who need to know at work are supervisor and human resources. Have you told your managers about the affair? And if you could get a transfer, where would it be?

Quote
I am quite sure the A is dead and that I will keep up with NC. If OM returns to work, I am confident my managers will help me deal with it. If he doesn't, then I think the current level of exposure at work is good.

If he returns to work and you are there, this is hopeless. Just keep that in mind. You can't see each other again. <-----I really need Helo to read this. If anyone suggests that there is any way around complete no contact, it won't work. That means you can't work at the same place. period. You can't see him. You can't see his car. nothing. nothing..
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Athena, the only folks who need to know at work are supervisor and human resources.

Thanks for that clarification. That is what I am thinking too. Both are now aware.

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Have you told your managers about the affair? And if you could get a transfer, where would it be?

I told them of the affair and while shocked, they were pleased that I was honest. A transfer would be to another location in the same city. But I am thinking that won't be enough. If we have a company staff meeting or event, unless I just avoid ALL such things, there is risk we could still run into each other. I don't want that - I really want NC.

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
If he returns to work and you are there, this is hopeless. Just keep that in mind. You can't see each other again. <-----I really need Helo to read this. If anyone suggests that there is any way around complete no contact, it won't work. That means you can't work at the same place. period. You can't see him. You can't see his car. nothing. nothing..


I told this to my managers and they agreed that we will see what the next week or so brings, but that I can plan on being absent on OM's first scheduled return to work day after his sick leave is up. It is cowardly of me, but I am waiting for OM to make the decision to quit.
Originally Posted by athena99
[
. A transfer would be to another location in the same city. But I am thinking that won't be enough. If we have a company staff meeting or event, unless I just avoid ALL such things, there is risk we could still run into each other. I don't want that - I really want NC.

Exactly. Running into each other at company events would be devastating to your husband. It would put you back to Day 1 of withdrawal.

If the OM doesn't leave the company, maybe you could get a transfer now while you look for another job?
It has been a while since I posted. I feel like nothing has changed. We haven't been very good at finding time to spend together. And - truth be told - I am not trying hard to make it happen. I know this is one of the drops on the rollercoaster, but knowing it doesn't make it any easier.

I don't want him to give me affection or sexual fulfillment. Conversation and recreational companionship are about all I am willing to do right now - but we aren't making the time for any of it. And I feel that unless I initiate it, it doesn't happen. I think that he may be scared to push me too far, but I don't want him walking on eggshells around me and waiting for me to give the go-ahead - he needs to put in the effort and show some initiative too.

I feel like we are back to where we were before I started cheating on him. The only difference is that I now have the chance to make a different choice. Problem is ... in order to get the desire I need to spend time with him, but in order to spend time with him, I need to have the desire to make it happen. I know I just need to step up and make it happen even if I don't feel it. But I have a hard time motivating myself under the best circumstances - this is not one of them.

To put a cherry on top, I had a dream about OM last night. It was a very sexual and emotional dream and I woke up nearly in tears because I had lost that feeling. I know this sounds foggy, but I really believe it's not something I ever felt as deeply with BH. And in the last month of resuming SF, I have not felt it. I have also been comparing and left wanting.

I found HNHN to be very chauvanistic when it comes to SF. I read that part a couple of times to try and understand how to meet that need, but it usually addresses it from the man's POV. I feel I place a higher importance on SF than BH does and this makes it tough.

I am also reading the "Resolving Conflicts over Sex" part of Love Busters. It is very good at describing the issue, but I just don't "feel" like I "want" to do anything about it. The couples in the book want to be intimate and resolve their issue. I almost don't care. Sure I want SF and I want it to be good, but I just feel like the effort isn't worth it - it won't be pleasurable for me and I don't want to bother trying. I am not attracted to him and can't bring myself to start a session that will disappoint me.

What should I do? I am feeling so lost. I can read about the principles and they all make perfect sense. I am just not FEELING them and this hurts a lot.
athena, you are whining. I think you know you're whining.

You can keep whining. That is your choice. But what good will it do you?

Do you want a successful marriage or don't you? The choice is yours.

A lot of the time we do things in the short term we aren't all that excited about because 1) they are the right things to do and 2) are necessary to achieve a longer term goal. To achieve success.

You already do this every day.

Do you really "feel" like getting up at 2am with your kids to clean up their puke?

Do you really "feel" like working out when you could be watching TV on the sofa?

Do you really "feel" like choosing an organge over that sugar coated Krispy Kreme?

Do you have a diploma? A degree? Did you really "feel" like studying instead of going out with your friends.

Do you really "feel" like getting up and going to work every morning?

We make choices, athena.

You make choices every day to do the things that need to be done to achieve your personal and family goals.

Following the MB plan is no different.

Are you going to choose the path to success or failure for your marriage, despite how you feel in the moment?

The choice is yours.
BTW, athena, what's the latest with your job?
Originally Posted by athena99
I feel I place a higher importance on SF than BH does and this makes it tough.

No. No you don't. You took it outside of your marriage and demonstrated that you don't place as much importance on it as you are claiming. You took something that should be exclusive to your spouse to the OM.

What is probably more important, is everything leading up to SF; conversation, affection, admiration.

twoxfour
Athena99, you've been given some great advice. If you are committed to recovery than you need to FIND the time to be togeher, and you NEED to meet your H's top needs. If you aren't willing to try then what's the point?
I understand your opinion that I am whining and I will admit to some extent that I am. Yes, sometimes you just need to do something even if you don't want to or don't feel like it.

But I am having a really hard time with this one. POJA is keeping me from engaging in SF. I am not excited about it. I don't want to do it. Not with him. I HATE that I feel this way, but I don't know how to overcome it.

Every time we have done it, I feel unfulfilled and it makes me not want to do it again. Yes, I should be open and honest, but if I am, then he'll just want to try again and I don't want to go there.

I understand the MB principles and am trying to learn more about them. I am just having a hard time implementing them when the desire to do some of these basic things is not there.

I know I am the only one who can fix my marriage - there's nothing you well-meaning folks can actually "do" except guide me in the right direction. I have to want it bad enough to expend the effort.

I guess the bottom line is that we are not following all of the MB principles, so how can we expect anything to work right now. We are not being radically honest - I am not telling him how disappointed I am in sex. The thought of practicing to make it better ... frankly, doesn't interest me. I get that it seems like I am whining and should look at it like going to work or studying (because I have to), but how do I let my guard down enough to be sexual with someone when I sitting here crying (bawling actually) at the thought of him touching me. God I hope he doesn't read this.

I am desperately looking for some advice on how to overcome this and get back on track with MB. Though maybe we never were on track - we read the stuff but never started implementing it.

Should we put a freeze on any SF stuff until we are in a better place? I just can't see going there right now with me feeling this way.
Maybe you're putting too much pressure and focus on SF.

My suggestion is that you spend one week focusing on RC.

One week. Full steam ahead. Your main focus. Quality RC alone with your husband.

If you're enjoying your time with him, you might be surprised at what follows ... emotions and desire.

Edit: don't make the mistake, though, of searching for the emotion and desire while you spend time together. Just try to be in the moment, find the joy in the moment, like you would with a friend.
Ok - I took a breath, calmed down, and shook my head.

Yeah - I am whining. The books have everything I need to make this work and I haven't been doing any of it. No wonder we are making no progress. I lost my focus and forgot what I was supposed to be doing.

I need to hunker down and FOCUS, trust in the process, and start doing what the good Dr says.

1 - spend a lot of time together meeting the 4 most important needs - affection, conversation, recreational companionship, and sexual fulfillment

2 - follow the rules
a - protection (avoid the love busters, follow POJA)
b - care (meet the needs and meet them well)
c - time (undivided attention)
d - honesty (open and honest)

Seems so easy. Why am I having so much trouble? Grrrrrr. I guess I just need to put in the effort. And in the spirit of honesty, need to tell BH that I need him to put in the effort too - I can't do this on my own.
Originally Posted by athena99
...We are not being radically honest - I am not telling him how disappointed I am in sex. The thought of practicing to make it better...frankly, doesn't interest me. I get that it seems like I am whining and should look at it like going to work or studying (because I have to), but how do I let my guard down enough to be sexual with someone when I sitting here crying (bawling actually) at the thought of him touching me. God I hope he doesn't read this...Should we put a freeze on any SF stuff until we are in a better place? I just can't see going there right now with me feeling this way...
this isn't fair to him, you not being honest with your husband in regard to your feelings about sex...but then again, you cheated on him and telling him that sex with him turns you off will probably do more harm than good in the recovery...

somehow you need to communicate to him in a way that's not hurtful that you're not in a place quite yet mentally to engage in sex with him and that you would prefer a period of no pressure of sex while you two work on falling back in love...
Originally Posted by DeltaDriveDeceit
If you're enjoying your time with him, you might be surprised at what follows ... emotions and desire.

Edit: don't make the mistake, though, of searching for the emotion and desire while you spend time together. Just try to be in the moment, find the joy in the moment, like you would with a friend.


I think that's where I was losing it. Thanks for clearing it up smile

I was expecting those things to just be there and not realizing that I needed to work to get them back. I really miss having those feelings and always believed they were either there or they weren't, that I couldn't do anything to make them happen. I need to change that perception and realize WE have the power to get those feelings again - WE just have to do the right things to get them.
The reason why I like to focus on RC is that it seems -- for us anyway -- conversation and affection are automatically part of it (talking, laughing, holding hands, hugging, him opening doors, etc.).

And because of all of that going on, my desire for SF is cranked up.

I can't tell you how full of desire I was after recently going to a football game with my H. I do love football and my team won, but it was from all the other interactions we had through the afternoon, too.
Originally Posted by mr_anderson
this isn't fair to him, you not being honest with your husband in regard to your feelings about sex...but then again, you cheated on him and telling him that sex with him turns you off will probably do more harm than good in the recovery...


My fear exactly. I've already given him quite a blow to his confidence and don't want to make it worse.

Originally Posted by mr_anderson
somehow you need to communicate to him in a way that's not hurtful that you're not in a place quite yet mentally to engage in sex with him and that you would prefer a period of no pressure of sex while you two work on falling back in love...


I am realizing (again) that we need to spend some quality&quantity time together before getting into sex again. Yes, we do need to fall in love again to make sex satisfying for both of us.
Originally Posted by athena99
Originally Posted by DeltaDriveDeceit
If you're enjoying your time with him, you might be surprised at what follows ... emotions and desire.

Edit: don't make the mistake, though, of searching for the emotion and desire while you spend time together. Just try to be in the moment, find the joy in the moment, like you would with a friend.


I think that's where I was losing it. Thanks for clearing it up smile

I was expecting those things to just be there and not realizing that I needed to work to get them back. I really miss having those feelings and always believed they were either there or they weren't, that I couldn't do anything to make them happen. I need to change that perception and realize WE have the power to get those feelings again - WE just have to do the right things to get them.

Echo, echo, echo....

He has to know how to meet those needs, and you have to allow him to meet them. Two parts of the puzzle that don't work without the other.
Come on now. You can be sexual without actually focusing on having sex.
Talk to each other about what turns you on. Touch each other (massages, just touching skin) and take the pressure off 'going all the way' all the time.
Watch R rated movies together with scenes that might turn you each on.
Read erotica together.
Etc.

You are forgetting that the brain IS the main sex organ and where all desire begins. Find the key to desiring the spouse.

yK.....part of your desire for an OM was the intrigue and top secret meetings and so on. That fueled the fantasy life. It was your brain.
Originally Posted by athena99
don't want him to give me affection or sexual fulfillment. Conversation and recreational companionship are about all I am willing to do right now - but we aren't making the time for any of it. And I feel that unless I initiate it, it doesn't happen. I think that he may be scared to push me too far, but I don't want him walking on eggshells around me and waiting for me to give the go-ahead - he needs to put in the effort and show some initiative too.


Athena, bring the body and the mind will follow. You can't very well whine about this "not working" when you are not taking the steps. You can't cut corners on this program. IF you want this to work, you are going to have to do the work for several weeks in order to develop feelings. You are not going to be able to cut corners.

Half measures will AVAIL YOU NOTHING.

So, whether you feel like it or not, sit down together with him TONIGHT and schedule out 20+ hours of undivided attention time for the next 7 days. Plan out the times, where you are going and what you will be doing. Plan on having sex on every day you have UA time. No, it doesn't FEEL romantic at first. It feels forced and stilted. But this is how it becomes natural. The more sex you have with him, the more bonded you will feel to him.

But you have to do the work, Athena. A feeling is not going to attack you by osmosis especially when you have not set the stage to make it happen.

This program DOES NOT WORK without the UA time. So get to it!!
Originally Posted by athena99
I was expecting those things to just be there and not realizing that I needed to work to get them back. I really miss having those feelings and always believed they were either there or they weren't, that I couldn't do anything to make them happen. I need to change that perception and realize WE have the power to get those feelings again - WE just have to do the right things to get them.

Exactly! You got it now. Dr Harley speaks of a woman who started off HATING her husband. She agreed to follow his plan to see if it changed anything. She said one day they were driving down the road and she realized suddenly when she looked at him "I LOVE HIM!!" All of a sudden it hit her that those feelings had come back.

If you take the right steps and go through the motions, they will come back FAST, Athena. Feelings follow actions, feelings follow actions. You will be surprised at how quickly they come back.
Originally Posted by athena99
I am realizing (again) that we need to spend some quality&quantity time together before getting into sex again. Yes, we do need to fall in love again to make sex satisfying for both of us.

Athena, sex is not expected to set off fireworks at first, but you should go ahead and do it to get in the practice. Having sex will help HIM fall in love with you and motivate him to meet your needs. All these needs feed EACH OTHER, so don't skip SF just because don't feel like it now. NONE of this feels natural at this point. But you still go through the motions. The feelings will come.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Athena, sex is not expected to set off fireworks at first, but you should go ahead and do it to get in the practice. Having sex will help HIM fall in love with you and motivate him to meet your needs. All these needs feed EACH OTHER, so don't skip SF just because don't feel like it now. NONE of this feels natural at this point. But you still go through the motions. The feelings will come.


I am kinda worried that going through the motions will actually hurt us more right now. I agree we need to practice to overcome some sexual issues, but can't shake my disappointment in SF. I hate to admit that I am comparing a lot and BH is coming up short. I am just not sympathetic or caring enough towards him right now to want to work through the sexual issues. Perhaps spending the time together will help and then I can make myself be with him.

I called him at work to express my frustrations over not finding the time to be together. At first he was defensive and I realized I was committing a love buster (disrespectful judgement or angry outburst, I don't know which), so I apologized and cleared it up. But then it felt like he was making excuses for us not finding the time. Yes, we are busy, but we need to MAKE time.

He was working from home the other day and I took the day off to do some stuff around the house. We hardly saw each other. A couple of days before we were talking about maybe taking a nap together or going for lunch and I had even thought about some SF. But none of that happened. I didn't want to interrupt his work and he didn't want to interrupt mine. We had a whole day to make progress and didn't do a darn thing. I think that is what is frustrating me. I blame myself for not being more open about my expectations, but I am also disappointed that he didn't seem to try anything either.

I've complained about his shortcomings (in my eyes) so much and I'm the one who cheated, so I don't feel I have the right to expect anything from him anymore. I feel like it is all up to me to fix and if I'm not on my A-game it all falls apart.
athena, did you see my post about scheduling that time together? I would also check out this link.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
athena, did you see my post about scheduling that time together? I would also check out this link.


Yes, I know we need to schedule time. But it feels like we need to schedule time to schedule time!

The link was good. I think I do have an aversion. Not towards sex, but towards sex with him. It doesn't take much to turn me on, but it also doesn't take much to turn me off. And unfortunately he has been exhibiting a lot of the turn offs and I feel uncomfortable beating him down (yet again) by telling him what they are.

Originally Posted by athena99
Yes, I know we need to schedule time. But it feels like we need to schedule time to schedule time!

ok, sit down tonight and do this!

Quote
The link was good. I think I do have an aversion. Not towards sex, but towards sex with him. It doesn't take much to turn me on, but it also doesn't take much to turn me off. And unfortunately he has been exhibiting a lot of the turn offs and I feel uncomfortable beating him down (yet again) by telling him what they are.

Well, he needs to be told what is bothering you. You both should tell each other so you can make changes. That is not beating him down, it is giving him vital information.
"you have to override your feelings with your intelligence in learning new habits." Dr Harley on Wednesday's radio show.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
"you have to override your feelings with your intelligence in learning new habits." Dr Harley on Wednesday's radio show.

Steve made a very similar comment to me once, and he stated that overriding those feelings with logic is incredibly difficult and in order to do it you need to be very thoroughly convinced of the logic of the plan you are using. He said something to the effect that you better make sure your logic is iron tight so it will be strong enough.
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
"you have to override your feelings with your intelligence in learning new habits." Dr Harley on Wednesday's radio show.

Steve made a very similar comment to me once, and he stated that overriding those feelings with logic is incredibly difficult and in order to do it you need to be very thoroughly convinced of the logic of the plan you are using. He said something to the effect that you better make sure your logic is iron tight so it will be strong enough.


These are both very interesting points. The logical person in me COMPLETELY agrees. However, the side that has trouble sticking to an exercise routine or eating healthy seems to be the one who shows up more often! Perhaps I need to work on my own mental strength and will power in order to stay focused when my feelings are confusing me.
So I am now quite convinced that the Rule of Protection and the Rule of Honesty conflict greatly when a love bank balance is very low.

I tried to be honest and tell BH about the things I was unhappy with, but no matter how I would have said it, it would have still hurt him greatly. However, because my balance is low, I wasn't being very gentle in how I told him (love buster) and it probably hurt him even more.

We both agreed that until we start increasing those balances by spending sometime together, we can't get into any relationship discussions or constructive criticisms and sex is off the table.

I do feel responsible for all of this - I am driving the roller coaster (or pushing the hormonal swing, if that is what it is). He is trying to be a steady eddie and I am the one bouncing all over the place seemingly inconsistently. I am frustrated with so many things right now and take it out on myself in my head, and when I let it out, it is directed at him. I need to make posters of the love busters and hang them around the house to remind myself what not to do. Perhaps put some ideas on it for what to do instead. I feel so ignorant about this (simple) process and need to have constant reminders about how to do it.
Originally Posted by athena99
I need to make posters of the love busters and hang them around the house to remind myself what not to do. Perhaps put some ideas on it for what to do instead. I feel so ignorant about this (simple) process and need to have constant reminders about how to do it.

athena, you are onto something. I counseled with Dr. Chalmers on two occasions earlier in the fall. Since my H was not on board with MB - and still isn't - her advice to me focused on what I could do. One of my assignments was to make a list of LB's and come up with alternate behaviors in place of each.

For example - an alternative behavior to both AOs and DJs is offering grace. I don't mean "saying grace," I mean you extend grace to the other party (your BS) by taking a moment to consider where they are coming from and trying to understand them. Simple communication techniques can help with this - reflection, for example (paraphrasing what you heard - "Let me make sure I understand what you are saying" etc). It takes some practice to get to where it doesn't sound stilted and unnatural.

When H and I were in counseling with our first counselor (I really liked her - felt like we actually worked on things - unfortunately we were going to her during the 4 months that I trickle truthed my H - you can read my thread for that doozy - and it essentially negated all the hard work we'd done) she coached us through reflection using an exercise where we talked about something that the other had done during the last week that we appreciated and why. Simple stuff but effective.

Anyway my suggestion would be to do just what you're saying - make a list of LBs and come up with alternative behaviors. Doesn't have to be a poster, but you will want to remind yourself of them frequently. You can do the same with the ENs, and come up with creative ways to meet them.

Just my $.02...hang in there.
athena,

You do need to be honest with your H as Mel said. He needs to hear what is bothering you. Are you listening to what bothers him and what he needs?

Have you gone to him today and said "I know what I said to you was hard for you to hear, but I appreciate you listening to me."

He needs reinforcement, he doesn't need you hiding and dodging.

So you think the rule of Protection and the rule of Honesty conflict? I think you don't understand them yet.

I mentioned to your H there is a difference between "radical honesty" and "brutal honesty" and that you two need to discuss this. But, just because you told him some painful truths, it does not mean you are not protecting him or the marriage.

You see he needs to hear how you think and feel. He needs to know what he is dealing with and have you share these with him. But, as I suggested to you a moment ago, he also needs to hear that you understand he is hurt, and that you take no pleasure in telling him things that hurt. He needs to hear you respect him for listening and appreciate him for doing it. He needs to feel your hand on his arm, neck, back, etc. as you tell him these things.

You will be surprised how well the Rule of Honesty dovetails with the Rule of Protection. You are telling the truth to protect your marriage, to put on the table issues that you are dealing with, and so seek his understanding is to protect your marriage and him. He will not be blindsided to lead astray if he knows your thinking even if it hurts him.

Let me ask you one last thing. If you had a friend that was hurting emotionally and you want to support them and let them know you cared what would you do?

Hang in there Athena99, you can do this. It is painful which is why Harley had plan B so preserve the love bank for recovery. It takes a lot of love to endure recovery and it cannot be done without it. It would seem to me your H loves you far more than you realize. Let him know you appreciate it.

God Bless,

JL
Dr Harley is discussing the process of falling in love on his Friday radio show. He says it takes 3 to 6 months to fall in love as long as you are meeting the 20 hours of UA time meeting the 4 intimate EN's. He describes how he has taken couples who NEVER loved each other and taught them how to fall in love.

Athena and Helo, go listen to Friday's show here
Thanks for the link ML ... that was a really good show to listen to. I think I may tune in more often!
Originally Posted by athena99
Thanks for the link ML ... that was a really good show to listen to. I think I may tune in more often!

You can also email them your own questions...
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
You can also email them your own questions...


I think I may do that. Helo and I have been discussing some of the finer points of MB and if we have a question or a personal issue we would like to get into detail on, that would be a good idea.

I have to say - MB is really growing on me. I am a very structured person and having a program that is so clearly defined, self-referential, and positive ... gives me a lot of hope and the tools/explanations I have been searching for.

Seriously, I just went to the section for Radio Archives and in the topic drop-down box, the ENTIRE MB program is outlined ... this list in itself is a great reminder of how to keep on track.

Emotional Needs
- Affection
- Sexual Fulfillment
- Conversation
- Recreational Companionship
- Honesty and Openness
- Physical Attractiveness
- Financial Support
- Domestic Support
- Family Commitment
- Admiration

Love Busters
- Selfish Demands
- Disrespectful Judgments
- Angry Outbursts
- Annoying Habits
- Independent Behavior
- Dishonesty

Policies
- Policy Of Joint Agreement
- Policy Of Undivided Attention
- Policy Of Successful Negotiation
- Policy Of Radical Honesty
Athena99,

YOu touch on something that I have always found both surprising when I came to this site and very comfortable with. People in similar situations react, think, feel, say, and often do the same things. That really surprised me years ago. I always had the feeling the everyone was different and felt things differently. I was wrong.

However, the good news is that since there is such commonality in peoples behavior, then an orgainzed well thought out plan that works, works a great deal of the time. Some of MB seems counter intuitive and sometimes even counter to itself, for example your questions about rule of protection and honesty. But, with thought and reading it becomes clear it is all well founded.

And if you read other information about recovery you will begin to see bits of MB in them, but it often isn't as well organized or expressed as here.

I am glad to see that you are beginning to gain some insight into things, and I hope that your recovery continues.

God Bless,

JL
Athena, I've been thinking about you and your H.

How are things going?
Well, to be honest, I am struggling � with so many things and it is really frustrating.

First of all, I am suffering from depression. I�ve been on antidepressants for almost 9 months, but lately have been forgetting to take them and have started feeling really low again. OM was always around to remind me and since NC, I haven�t let BH fill that need. I talked to him about it this morning and he is going to help me out now.

We have been making the extra time together, but not the 15-20 hours. Much more than before, but not enough.

I had a dream about OM the other day and it was an innocent dream, but I left the dream feeling like I had actually been with him. In the dream, we weren�t talking, but just sitting beside each other and it felt really good just to be in his presence. At a time when I was feeling really depressed when I was awake, it felt really good to wake up to a happy feeling. So much so that when I woke up I had a hard time shaking those thoughts. I wanted to spend the day in bed just re-living that dream. I am frustrated because I am going through the withdrawal and my own dreams are sabotaging it for me � I can�t control them!

I am struggling with meeting BH�s needs. I know I haven�t been doing it at all very well and even though I am struggling with the depression and want to sleep all of the time, it feels like he isn�t even trying to meet my needs. He says he is walking on eggshells because he doesn�t know the �right� way to talk to me sometimes or what the right kind of conversation is for me. I told him that what I am used to in my relationship with OM is to talk about the relationship a lot. Every time we got together, our relationship was first and foremost � we talked about it incessantly - what are we going to do about the situation, what are our next steps. We spent a lot of time talking about, analyzing and appreciating our relationship. And I am missing that now.

I started thinking about my needs. BH and I haven�t sat down to discuss our needs and how we want them met (I know � this should have been done by now). I haven�t told him what my needs are so it is not fair of me to complain that he is not meeting them, but I feel like he is not even trying. He is waiting for it to happen on its own � not asking what my needs are. I don�t know if he is waiting for me to meet his needs or tell him what to do to meet my needs. But I told him that I can�t help him when I can�t even help myself right now. I�m in a very low and dark place and it makes it difficult. I know I need to deal with the depression before I can start working on my marriage, but at the same time, I wonder if the failures in my marriage are contributing to my depression � so it is a chicken and egg problem right now.

But also that I look at my needs and feel that OM met them very well. I tell BH what my needs are and he can start meeting them too � I get that. But how many times do I need to tell him that?! I told him that I may not be giving you the green light to show me affection, but to push through it anyway. I�ve told him again and again and he doesn�t get it. He admits he doesn�t get it. I sympathize with him in that he is having a hard time � walking on eggshells around me. But I feel like I am the only one working on this and I am not able to do it very well right now. So it is all going to fall apart. If both of us aren�t able to focus on getting those 15 hours and if I�m dealing with my depression, it is all going to fall apart and it is scary.

I am still in withdrawal. I think about OM way more than I should and I try not to, but GOD, he pops up in my dreams! OM met my needs so well and right now when I am dealing with my depression it is even more evident. A year ago when I was first feeling low and didn�t understand what was going on, it was OM who was there for me to listen to me. I laid in bed crying one night and told BH how sad I was feeling and had visions of driving my car into a concrete pillar and he didn�t say much. He just said �oh�. A few months later, OM convinced me to see my dr and before the meds had kicked in I had a really bad day � I was losing it. OM stayed with me and made me call a crisis support line. He didn�t leave until I was talking to someone and had calmed down. Only then did he give me some privacy to talk and he went up to my office to collect my things and made some excuses as to why I wasn�t coming back for the afternoon. He saved my life that day. Not by what he said, but by what he DID.

And I know BH just didn�t know what to do in the moment when I first opened up to him. I understand that, but at the same time, I need someone who can step up and deal with stuff like this. I don�t know how long I can wait for him to figure it out. I know this sounds so stupid, but I�ve got (or had) someone in my life who understood this and was there for me and met my needs so well, in ways that I didn�t even appreciate back then. I know he is married and that I am a danger to his marriage, but I can�t dismiss how he made me feel and how much he met my needs. I appreciate it now because I am not getting those needs met. OM was a natural at meeting my needs and BH struggles with it � it is not easy for him. I don�t think I can wait to see if he ever figures it out.

It is like a reverse plan B. Instead of moving out and seeing how many of my needs BH was meeting so I�d come crawling back, I am now seeing how much of my needs were met by OM � needs I am not getting it in my marriage. I realize this must sound like fog babble to all of you, but this is my life and how I am feeling. Someone last week told be to stop whining � it is not about the feelings it is about focusing and doing what you need to do whether you feel it or not. I understand that. But in my depressed state, it is hard to get up and do anything � hard to get up, hard to stay up, hard to go to work, hard to listen to my kids argue � I just want to pull myself away from everything, crawl back into bed and lay there until the pain goes away. So I am either dealing with that extreme pain or god forbid I let myself think about OM and how happy he made me. It is like the only bright light I�ve got in my life right now. And it is gone.

I care about BH, and I feel awful that I am not giving him the chance, but I have given him the chance. 2 years ago I told him that I was ready to walk away from our marriage and a year ago I told him I was thinking of killing myself because I was so unhappy. He can say he loves me and he can say he is trying, but I don�t SEE anything. It is not registering with me.

I did tell BH about some of these thoughts and he agreed to come to counseling with me about my depression. I need to talk to a dr and I think he needs to be there to understand what is going on and what he needs to do to help me. Perhaps that is where I need to start � taking my meds and talking to a dr. But it feels like the marriage is put on hold while I get my life in order.
Originally Posted by athena99
If both of us aren�t able to focus on getting those 15 hours and if I�m dealing with my depression, it is all going to fall apart and it is scary.

Athena, what are you doing to meet his needs? Meeting needs is a TWO WAY street. The more you meet his needs, the more he will feel like meeting your needs. You need to give him some incentive here.

Your feelings will not come back overnight, BUT THEY WILL NEVER COME BACK IF YOU DON'T SCHEDULE 20+ HOURS OF UNDIVIDED ATTENTION. All of this is worthless unless you do that. And the focus must be these top 4 intimate needs: sexual fulfillment, conversation, affection and recreational companionship. ESPECIALLY conversation. I think this is how the OM was able to use you all these years.

You say you WANT certain things to happen, but are not taking the steps to make them happen. That is like crying that you aren't getting to Cincinnatti, Ohio but you can't be bothered to start the car.

You are big girl, Athena, and have to take an active approach in your own recovery. That means YOU remind yourself every day to take your pill and YOU sit your butt down TONIGHT and make out a schedule for the week and line up babysitters.

If you want things to change, you have to CHANGE. It will not happen by magic. It sounds to me like you are waiting for some magic feeling to come attack you against your will. That is not how life works, my friend. FEELINGS FOLLOW ACTIONS, FEELINGS FOLLOW ACTIONS,FEELINGS FOLLOW ACTIONS......

Also, have you considered getting phone counseling with the Harleys? They are very good at motivating you and giving you a PLAN.
Originally Posted by athena99
OM stayed with me and made me call a crisis support line. He didn�t leave until I was talking to someone and had calmed down. Only then did he give me some privacy to talk and he went up to my office to collect my things and made some excuses as to why I wasn�t coming back for the afternoon. He saved my life that day. Not by what he said, but by what he DID.

What is really sick and tragic about your comments is that it was the affair that caused the depression in the first place. Depression is pretty much the RULE with adultery because one has to constantly beat down one's conscience. That is hard to do. Praising the OM is like thanking the rapist for dropping you off at the ER after he raped you. crazy

It is a horrible depressing feeling to have a black cloud sitting on your conscience, so depression is very common. This is why it is so ironic to see you say the "OM saved your life" when in reality, that loser WRECKED YOUR LIFE. He disrespected you, degraded you and used you in the worst possible way. He kept you enmeshed in a sewer existance for years and here you are grateful to him.

Quote
Perhaps that is where I need to start � taking my meds and talking to a dr. But it feels like the marriage is put on hold while I get my life in order.

I agree you should go to a doctor about your depression, but it would be suicide to put your recovery on hold. A big vacuum has been left in the place of your affair, so it has to be filled by something. There is absolutely no reason to wait to work on recovery when that is the very thing that is bound to bring you happiness.
Call the Harleys Athena, otherwise you risk losing your marriage and ALL chance at happiness.

I can't remember, do you still see OM?
Athena,

I am no expert..I am a BH and all I can tell you is I have never experienced anything like what I am going thru. I have read your post and I can understand what your going thru..

Do you understand what your husband is REALLY going thru and what he is doing for YOU? The fact that he is still trying to make your marriage work when it would be so much easier to walk away and let the pain and the hurt go? I assure you, he could probably leave today and find someone who would be more than happy to meet all his needs and he would be ok, but instead he CHOOSES to try and save his marriage with you and endure all the pain and suffering that goes along with it.

He knows he has done things, wronged you, hurt you and probably feels like he is to blame for EVERYTHING he is going thru now. He is probably scared to death of upsetting you and not trying to push you away, since everything you see here says don't talk a lot about the relationship.

I can understand how difficult it must be to try and do something with someone who you feel doesn't complete you, but I am assuming he did at one point do the same thing the OM is doing now. Give him the chance, he probably feels like he isn't good enough and that nothing he does seems to be good enough. I know I still feel like this even though deep down I know it's not true! Try to see the other man for the negative things HE did to hurt your relationship and be ANGRY that he took away something very special between you and your husband and quit thinking of him as a good person. In reality, he may be a good person in his enviroment and his marriage but he isn't to you and your marriage! Let your husband be there for you talk to him, reassure him that your trying and work thru this together 100% and show him your committed. Sorry, I may have gotten sidetracked I have a hard time writing and conveying my thoughts sometimes.

Good luck,

P.S.
I hate FACEBOOK and TEXTING..I think it can be good but only when you have very STRONG boundaries and only when you hide nothing but I guess if that was the case then none of us would be here? Sorry..I just never understood how destructive this media could be.
Originally Posted by Scotland
Call the Harleys Athena, otherwise you risk losing your marriage and ALL chance at happiness.

I can't remember, do you still see OM?

This is a good question by Scotland. Has the OM ever come back to work? Have you seen or spoken to him?
Athena still sounds very fond of OM. I bet she sees him often....
Melody,
Thanks for your help, you and the others take so much of your time to help others on here. You really helped me to understand so many things, for that I am a better person.

I know I haven't posted on my orginal post much but I wanted to thank you. Sorry for hijacking your post Athena.
Thank you so much, lovemywifesc!
Originally Posted by athena99
I care about BH, and I feel awful that I am not giving him the chance, but I have given him the chance. 2 years ago I told him that I was ready to walk away from our marriage and a year ago I told him I was thinking of killing myself because I was so unhappy. He can say he loves me and he can say he is trying, but I don�t SEE anything. It is not registering with me.

Complete, total, utter bovine excrement.

It isn't registering with you? Well, let's see... he's hanging around trying to care for someone who is so engaged in a self-pity party, pining for another man that she can't give a damn about what he wants or needs... oh, no no no. It's all about you.

He's standing there trying to be by your side, despite the fact you were off boffing some other guy, and had to be drug away kicking and screaming. And you gave him a chance?

You've only been giving him the chance to fail... over and over and over.

Exactly WHAT is it you are looking for? Admiration? Why don't you START BEHAVING ADMIRABLY then?


*edit*


How about this? How about you pull your cranium out of your rectum, and figure out who is giving who a chance here?

Ok, princess?
Originally Posted by athena99
Every time we got together, our relationship was first and foremost � we talked about it incessantly - what are we going to do about the situation, what are our next steps. We spent a lot of time talking about, analyzing and appreciating our relationship.

Sounds like your drawn to drama and chaos.

Perhaps you're simply not drawn to peace and contentment.

What do you think about that possibility, athena?

Do you feel you need to be involved in some sort of craziness to fill something in your life or else it's too plain and "boring?"
Originally Posted by HeadHeldHigh
Originally Posted by athena99
I care about BH, and I feel awful that I am not giving him the chance, but I have given him the chance. 2 years ago I told him that I was ready to walk away from our marriage and a year ago I told him I was thinking of killing myself because I was so unhappy. He can say he loves me and he can say he is trying, but I don�t SEE anything. It is not registering with me.

Complete, total, utter bovine excrement.

It isn't registering with you? Well, let's see... he's hanging around trying to care for someone who is so engaged in a self-pity party, pining for another man that she can't give a damn about what he wants or needs... oh, no no no. It's all about you.

He's standing there trying to be by your side, despite the fact you were off boffing some other guy, and had to be drug away kicking and screaming. And you gave him a chance?

You've only been giving him the chance to fail... over and over and over.

Exactly WHAT is it you are looking for? Admiration? Why don't you START BEHAVING ADMIRABLY then?


*edit*


How about this? How about you pull your cranium out of your rectum, and figure out who is giving who a chance here?

Ok, princess?

Ditto, I agree, you've only given him a chance to fail.

Now try giving him a chance to succeed and see if you feel any better.

Telling him you are about to kill yourself is in no way giving him a chance to succeed. Now if you had said, "I feel like killing myself, so I'm going to get some help so I can be the wife I vowed to be..."

Well that would be giving him a chance to succeed. But telling him that you are broken and laying the entire burden on him is no chance for success.

Since he's not abandoned you, perhaps you should consider kissing the ground he walks on, because from here, he's the shining success in your marriage. Only you are too self-absorbed to see that.

When are you going to get on board and be a successful party to your marriage?
Athena,

I admire you for putting it all out there knowing you will get 2X4's.

I think this part is amazingly difficult. I know how badly you feel and how much you miss OM. He filled a void in your life and now it is just a void.

Your BH does sound willing to fill it. You are similar to me in that you make many disrespectful judgements about what he is able to do. It took me awhile to see this as they were hidden as "concerns" for him. I would frequently fix things for him because he didn't know how or he just wasn't good at that sort of thing.....

I handled children problems and family issues and kept my emotions in check around him. I did ask for affection because "he just wasn't the touchy feely type." If something was difficult, boring, or sad, I would "rescue" him from it.

So, yes, he is pretty lousy at meeting my needs but for goodness sakes, I didn't let him.

Yes, like you, I did try and fail in the past but I don't think I tried hard enough. I don't think I put much value on my needs so how could I expect him to?

I am trying now and it is hard because NOW I have the guilt on top of it all. What right do I have to have my needs met????

I just decided that it isn't fair to allow OM or anyone else to meet my needs until I've really put them out there for my BH. I can't assume he will fail. I have to let him try. So far he has messed up a lot BUT he has done a lot of things I would have never expected...not in a million years SO, maybe I was wrong all along...maybe you were to.

If he stuck around so far there is always a chance.

Good luck.
Athena,

My wife always says she told me things..problem was I never understood what she meant...I read a great book called Love and Respect..maybe try reading it..I know its not a book from this site but along with all the books from this site and that book it gave me a lot of insight...I still need a lot of help understanding things but I am willing to try...I just need my wife to be honest with me and help me do the things she would like me to do..I don't mind doing things I just need to know WHAT you really need from me smile If I ask you is there anything I can do to make you have a better day and you tell me no, I can't do anything and if you do this all the time pretty soon he can never do anything right but, your probably telling the OM all the things and he can do things right for you...Helps to have the information to act accordingly.

LOVE HIM THE WAY YOU WANT TO BE LOVED AND TRY AS HARD AS YOU EXPECT HIM TO TRY! You might have been trying to save the marriage when he wasn't and now he is trying to save it when you are not..END the cycle and START today with him to save it:)
Originally Posted by sunnydaze53
I just decided that it isn't fair to allow OM or anyone else to meet my needs until I've really put them out there for my BH. I can't assume he will fail. I have to let him try. So far he has messed up a lot BUT he has done a lot of things I would have never expected...not in a million years SO, maybe I was wrong all along...maybe you were to.

I want to bring back the focus to her H and his needs. See, her H is lying on the ground bleeding to death from the bloody beating he has endured at her hand. Is it reasonable to demand that your wounded victim get up and meet your needs when he can hardly breathe on his own?

Will kicking him in the head over and over again motivate him to meet her needs? What would motivate a wounded BS to get up and start engaging in the marriage?

Perhaps it would be motivating if Athena would start meeting his needs, stop lovebusting, stop pining for loserboy and TAKE THE LEAD IN THIS RECOVERY.

It is dangerous to focus on getting something FROM your beaten spouse at a time when he is in shock. The way to get what you want from your victim is to first RENDER FIRST AIDE. He has to be nursed back to health. Nursing him back to health is the way to get what you want from the marriage.

Secondly, it is dangerous and counterproductive to speak about the feelings one has for your filthy affair. Speaking about pining for the pig pen only makes those feelings more intense. I can assure you they don't allow that kind of talk in AA about alcohol. And heck, if filthy affairs were all that great, then why give them up at all? Its like booze, if it were so wonderful i would have just continued drinking.

Athena, I would encourage you to render first aide to your victim. That will help him recover and will motivate him to engage in this marriage. Eliminate your lovebusters, stop pining for loserboy, and make up that schedule of UA for the week. Bring the body and the mind will follow.

Bring the body and the mind will follow.

Bring the body and the mind will follow.

Bring the body and the mind will follow.
In other words,

1. Stop any further damage. Pining away for the OM, etc are all acts that bring further injury to your betrayed husband and your marriage.

2. Get yourself fixed. Stop expecting ANYTHING from your husband at this time. You chose to have an affair, so something in you is severely broken. Until you get yourself fixed, you are not a safe spouse and are not to be trusted when it comes to making a respectful request about your needs.

3. Plan A your husband. The above pretty much covers Love Busters, but if there are others not covered by the first two above, address those. Also meet his needs. This will help him heal.

4. Protect the marriage you have. Much of that comes from the above actions, but you also have to make sure you have adequate defenses to protect your marriage from either your ability to damage it, or external forces.

There may be more, but that's the triage I see that's needed. You have to first stop doing damage and get yourself fixed before you can make any sort of determination what you really need or want. Your needs and wants are in the fog right now, and will remain there as long as you are longing for the OM and as Melody described, the filth he provided.

It may have looked good, but understand that was a very thin veneer over a pile of excrement to make it look good. Excrement in a nice box is still a box of excrement, no matter how you market it.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
This is a good question by Scotland. Has the OM ever come back to work? Have you seen or spoken to him?


Originally Posted by atena
Athena still sounds very fond of OM. I bet she sees him often....


I have not seen OM in quite a while - over 3 weeks ... not since I told BH about broken NC. He was off work for a couple of weeks and returned last week to find that he'd been transferred (was in the works long before I told management). I took last week off to avoid being at work while he was "in transition".

However, there have been a few times when it has felt like there has been too much contact/reminder. OM sent BH a note to tell him he was transferred. BH told me about this. OM sent a note to the entire office to say goodbye and I was on the distribution list. Just today people are asking me to sign his goodbye card and plan to go for a goodbye lunch with them all. And my dreams have also done their part in making it hard for me to put him behind me.

But I have stayed true to NC. Yet I have to admit I am still fond of him and feel bad for what he has been going through these last few weeks too.

Originally Posted by HeadHeldHigh
He's standing there trying to be by your side, despite the fact you were off boffing some other guy, and had to be drug away kicking and screaming. And you gave him a chance?


Nobody pulled me away kicking and screaming. I ended it all by myself. I chose to tell BH about broken NC, I told BH when OM tried to call me, I have been keeping up with NC.

BH asked me today if I resented him for keeping me away from OM. I said no. BH isn't keeping me away. I am keeping me away. And with the withdrawal, lack of action on both BH and MY part (I take responsibility too), I am feeling stretched to the limit of my mental and emotional strength right now.

I suffered with severe post-partum depression that I was too proud to get treated, yet I know that carrying on in an affair contributed to that depression becoming worse.

Yes, I am the one who screwed up royally. I have not forgotten that.
Originally Posted by athena99
However, there have been a few times when it has felt like there has been too much contact/reminder. OM sent BH a note to tell him he was transferred. BH told me about this. OM sent a note to the entire office to say goodbye and I was on the distribution list. Just today people are asking me to sign his goodbye card and plan to go for a goodbye lunch with them all. And my dreams have also done their part in making it hard for me to put him behind me.

Athena, I only hope you didn't sign that card. I would strongly advise you tell those coworkers about this affair and ask them not to bring him up again. Additionally, you go into your system and block the OM from contacting you. Leaving this door open is dangerous to your recovery.

Quote
But I have stayed true to NC. Yet I have to admit I am still fond of him and feel bad for what he has been going through these last few weeks too.

Do you feel bad about what you and the OM did to your husband? The OM is not a victim. Your H and his wife are.


Quote
BH asked me today if I resented him for keeping me away from OM. I said no. BH isn't keeping me away. I am keeping me away. And with the withdrawal, lack of action on both BH and MY part (I take responsibility too), I am feeling stretched to the limit of my mental and emotional strength right now.

Take the lead, Athena. Start taking your anti-depressants, see your doctor if you have to, and TAKE THE LEAD ON YOUR MARRIAGE.

But, Stop sitting there waiting for your H to do all the work. He is in worse shape than you. Render first aide to your husband. Take the bull by the horns and focus on a PLAN.

Will you do that?

Originally Posted by athena99
[Just today people are asking me to sign his goodbye card and plan to go for a goodbye lunch with them all.

What was your response? And what have you done to make sure this doesn't happen again?
Originally Posted by athena99
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
This is a good question by Scotland. Has the OM ever come back to work? Have you seen or spoken to him?


Originally Posted by atena
Athena still sounds very fond of OM. I bet she sees him often....


I have not seen OM in quite a while - over 3 weeks ... not since I told BH about broken NC. He was off work for a couple of weeks and returned last week to find that he'd been transferred (was in the works long before I told management). I took last week off to avoid being at work while he was "in transition".

However, there have been a few times when it has felt like there has been too much contact/reminder. OM sent BH a note to tell him he was transferred. BH told me about this. OM sent a note to the entire office to say goodbye and I was on the distribution list. Just today people are asking me to sign his goodbye card and plan to go for a goodbye lunch with them all. And my dreams have also done their part in making it hard for me to put him behind me.

But I have stayed true to NC. Yet I have to admit I am still fond of him and feel bad for what he has been going through these last few weeks too.

Originally Posted by HeadHeldHigh
He's standing there trying to be by your side, despite the fact you were off boffing some other guy, and had to be drug away kicking and screaming. And you gave him a chance?


Nobody pulled me away kicking and screaming. I ended it all by myself. I chose to tell BH about broken NC, I told BH when OM tried to call me, I have been keeping up with NC.

BH asked me today if I resented him for keeping me away from OM. I said no. BH isn't keeping me away. I am keeping me away. And with the withdrawal, lack of action on both BH and MY part (I take responsibility too), I am feeling stretched to the limit of my mental and emotional strength right now.

I suffered with severe post-partum depression that I was too proud to get treated, yet I know that carrying on in an affair contributed to that depression becoming worse.

Yes, I am the one who screwed up royally. I have not forgotten that.

You have a deflection going on here; your withdrawal, and your self-absorption is not allowing anything he does to get through.

This can also be reversed - my FWW works VERY hard, not only to meet my needs, but to show remorse, love, and care. At times... well, at times it just isn't getting through.

However, she doesn't just pack up her toys and go home. She fights. She fights HARD.

Maybe you need a change of venue. Maybe you are surrounded by too many reminders of OM for you to properly withdrawal. Maybe you have a secret stash of mementos, or maybe it's just work and the memories of the A built therein.

BH isn't getting a chance, because you are in this perpetually foggy sunshine circle of memory about this wretched bastardization of love you are perceiving.

Maybe it's time to freaking crap or get off the dang pot.
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
2. Get yourself fixed. Stop expecting ANYTHING from your husband at this time. You chose to have an affair, so something in you is severely broken. Until you get yourself fixed, you are not a safe spouse and are not to be trusted when it comes to making a respectful request about your needs.


I'm sorry. Your signature says "I can't do this alone, but I can do this!", yet you are telling me to not expect anything from him and do it all by myself.

But I do agree about the "safe spouse" part - right now I don't know what I want or need. I only know that right now I am bleeding too and need to put on my oxygen mask before I can deal with BH.

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
I want to bring back the focus to her H and his needs. See, her H is lying on the ground bleeding to death from the bloody beating he has endured at her hand. Is it reasonable to demand that your wounded victim get up and meet your needs when he can hardly breathe on his own?

Will kicking him in the head over and over again motivate him to meet her needs? What would motivate a wounded BS to get up and start engaging in the marriage?

Perhaps it would be motivating if Athena would start meeting his needs, stop lovebusting, stop pining for loserboy and TAKE THE LEAD IN THIS RECOVERY.


I hear you. I just don't know how to do that. Logically it all makes sense. But I can't deal with a lot of stuff right now and the thought of trying extra hard at ANYTHING frankly is draining me. I cried myself to work this morning and just feel like crawling home and into bed. The first time the kids start whining about something, my skin will crawl and I will want to run away.

I am not showing much empathy or compassion for BH - I can see that too. But I also don't see his pain. Perhaps it is selfishness on my part, but from my point of view he seems to be able to function during the day and not be debilitated by depressing thoughts. He can get stuff done and remember things. To my knowledge, he's never considered taking his own life to end the pain and hurt even more thinking about what that would do to his kids.

I am selfish. I know I need to do something about that. I just have to figure out how to kick myself in the *ss and do it.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by athena99
[Just today people are asking me to sign his goodbye card and plan to go for a goodbye lunch with them all.

What was your response? And what have you done to make sure this doesn't happen again?


I did not sign the card - I made an excuse about needing to give it some thought. I will also have "other plans" when the lunch is scheduled.

I am not ready to have this blown up at work. Management knows and that is good enough for me. I can ignore everyone and get through the next week before the Christmas break begins.
Feelings follow actions. It's not the other way around. If you sit around and wait until you "feel like" you want to do things for your BH, it'll never happen.

So do them anyway. And more than once. Again, and again, and again, whether you "feel like it" or not.

Though I would hope you might "feel like" saving your marriage and easing some of your BH's pain.

You may be very surprised at what happens.
Originally Posted by athena99
[
I hear you. I just don't know how to do that. Logically it all makes sense. But I can't deal with a lot of stuff right now and the thought of trying extra hard at ANYTHING frankly is draining me. I cried myself to work this morning and just feel like crawling home and into bed. The first time the kids start whining about something, my skin will crawl and I will want to run away.

Athena, the solution is to go through the motions. I want to assure you that I am on your side. Even though I might smack you about a bit, please know I am your friend and I am cheering for you. I am nothing but damn proud of the bravery you have shown up til now. I just want to see you and your husband rewarded for your efforts. I do not want you to be unhappy, or punished.

But I know that the way to your future happiness is to do some things right now that you don't feel like doing. THAT IS THE SOLUTION.

There is no way to snap your fingers and make this easy, so you have to have patience and most of all you have to LEAD your marriage out of this swamp. I have given you a plan, but you have not taken the first step. You have to get up and walk. Make yourself take the steps.

Can you take the first step tonight? Sit down tonight and write out a schedule of 20+ hours for the next 7 days. Line up the babysitters. Do the work, Athena. Make the plans. Go through the motions.

When you are done with that, go to this link here [both of you] and read it together. Print out the questionaire, both of you take it and then exchange your questionaires. You should be focused on eliminating lovebusters in addition to meeting the top 4 intimate EN's in 20+ hours of UA.

What else can you do TODAY to ease your H's pain?

The sooner you get this this show on the road, the sooner you will be HAPPY AND FULFILLED WITH YOUR HUSBAND. I am telling you, Athena, it is possible, but you have to drive start the car. Start the car, my friend!
Quote
I am not showing much empathy or compassion for BH - I can see that too. But I also don't see his pain. Perhaps it is selfishness on my part, but from my point of view he seems to be able to function during the day and not be debilitated by depressing thoughts. He can get stuff done and remember things. To my knowledge, he's never considered taking his own life to end the pain and hurt even more thinking about what that would do to his kids.
Trying to understand your BH's pain will be an impossible task for you. You are not at a point where you are able to appreciate what affect your actions have had on him or OM's wife. Some betrayed spouses appear to go on without missing a beat. Others throw up, lose weight, become suicidal. The only difference in these reactions is that they are processing their pain in different ways.

This is not for you to judge or to change your recovery goals over. You need to keep in the forefront of your mind the incredible harm you have caused.

If it helps, try to visualize his pain in another way. Imagine pressing a hot iron against his sleeping back, or running over his legs with your car. Then apologizing to him. "Oops, sorry about that." I'm not being snarky, athena. You may need to visualize harming your H and OMW as a wife to help you visualize an emotional trauma that was caused by your hand.

You appear to be going through the gnawing emotional toil of withdrawal. I have great hope for you. You're a smart girl.

Quote
I am selfish. I know I need to do something about that. I just have to figure out how to kick myself in the *ss and do it.
And because you're a smart girl, you may be analyzing this to a fault. Instead of thinking so much, ACT. Make a list: what little thing can you do for your H? It doesn't have to be big or elaborate.

Take home flowers for him.
Tuck one-line love notes in places where he'll be sure to find them.
Go shopping with him and pick out the ingredients for an elaborate meal you've never tried before. Make the meal together.
Scratch his back.
Rub his feet.

Expect nothing in return.
You get the idea.

Athena 99,

Please allow me to add to the very good advice and painful truth these people are offering you.



"I'm sorry. Your signature says "I can't do this alone, but I can do this!", yet you are telling me to not expect anything from him and do it all by myself."

You should not try to do this alone but, unless your husband has super human emotional strength he is not going to be able to help you. It could be several months, if not longer, for him to be able to offer you consistent meaningful support as only a life partner can do.






"I also don't see his pain. Perhaps it is selfishness on my part, but from my point of view he seems to be able to function during the day and not be debilitated by depressing thoughts. He can get stuff done and remember things. To my knowledge, he's never considered taking his own life to end the pain and hurt even more thinking about what that would do to his kids."

It seems you have come to the conclusion that your husband and family are the only place or path where you can survive this difficult world we live in. I do not want to judge your decision but I will say that you need to follow through. Making a decision on this brings you 75% of the way and following through will bring you the rest. The MB plan is a very good structured plan. I'm sure you can't trust much of your feelings and thoughts. With the MB plan you don't need to think you just need to work. Work and exercise, by the way, are proven therapies for anxiety and depression. They keep you busy and focused. Now......speaking of following through. This quote from you tells me there is at least one thing your husband is and probably always has provided for you. A backbone! I'm sure he is suffering horribly yet he is getting things done, remembering things and providing some form of emotional stability for your family.

CK
athena, It occurs to me that if you do stop worrying about OM and start concentrating on healing your marriage and your BH, you will be brought face to face with your conscience and there will be no way to escape.

Are you trying to avoid facing this? Is this why you are feeling so angry and depressed and defensive, and why you seem to feel that you are suffering far more than your BH is?

P.S. There's only one way to "kick yourself in the *ss" and that's to let your conscience do it. I think that is what you are terrified of facing.
Originally Posted by athena99
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
2. Get yourself fixed. Stop expecting ANYTHING from your husband at this time. You chose to have an affair, so something in you is severely broken. Until you get yourself fixed, you are not a safe spouse and are not to be trusted when it comes to making a respectful request about your needs.


I'm sorry. Your signature says "I can't do this alone, but I can do this!", yet you are telling me to not expect anything from him and do it all by myself.
That's odd, I never said do it alone. I said don't expect much from your husband. Get the help you need to be a healthy person from a professional. Now is not the time to dump responsibility for your faults or your personal growth on your husband.

I never said you have to go it alone. I said your husband can't help you, nor should you have many expectations until you are healthy and healed of whatever it was that made you think an affair was a healthy and loving way to have your needs met.
Originally Posted by athena99
But I do agree about the "safe spouse" part - right now I don't know what I want or need. I only know that right now I am bleeding too and need to put on my oxygen mask before I can deal with BH.

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
I want to bring back the focus to her H and his needs. See, her H is lying on the ground bleeding to death from the bloody beating he has endured at her hand. Is it reasonable to demand that your wounded victim get up and meet your needs when he can hardly breathe on his own?

Will kicking him in the head over and over again motivate him to meet her needs? What would motivate a wounded BS to get up and start engaging in the marriage?

Perhaps it would be motivating if Athena would start meeting his needs, stop lovebusting, stop pining for loserboy and TAKE THE LEAD IN THIS RECOVERY.


I hear you. I just don't know how to do that. Logically it all makes sense. But I can't deal with a lot of stuff right now and the thought of trying extra hard at ANYTHING frankly is draining me. I cried myself to work this morning and just feel like crawling home and into bed. The first time the kids start whining about something, my skin will crawl and I will want to run away.

I am not showing much empathy or compassion for BH - I can see that too. But I also don't see his pain. Perhaps it is selfishness on my part, but from my point of view he seems to be able to function during the day and not be debilitated by depressing thoughts. He can get stuff done and remember things. To my knowledge, he's never considered taking his own life to end the pain and hurt even more thinking about what that would do to his kids.

I am selfish. I know I need to do something about that. I just have to figure out how to kick myself in the *ss and do it.
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Get the help you need to be a healthy person from a professional. Now is not the time to dump responsibility for your faults or your personal growth on your husband.

I never said you have to go it alone. I said your husband can't help you, nor should you have many expectations until you are healthy and healed of whatever it was that made you think an affair was a healthy and loving way to have your needs met.


You are right - it is not his job to help me fix the mess I made of my life. I need to seek counselling for my depression and try meeting his needs without expecting any of my needs to be met. And I need to push through the multitude of feelings that I am having - both pining for OM and not wanting to be around BH.

I see these words in front of me and the thought of doing all that without enjoying any of it just hurts more. How long do I grin and bear it (go through the motions) before I should start feeling something for BH? Will it really take months of me being unhappy and his love bank filling up before I start to feel anything again?
Originally Posted by athena99
I see these words in front of me and the thought of doing all that without enjoying any of it just hurts more. How long do I grin and bear it (go through the motions) before I should start feeling something for BH? Will it really take months of me being unhappy and his love bank filling up before I start to feel anything again?

It will take FOREVER if you never start! The sooner you start the sooner you will feel love and passion for him. And it will not take long for him to fill your lovebank and vice versa. It usually comes in a matter of WEEKS. But you have to do the work, Athena. Feelings follow actions, feelings follow actions...

Take the lead and lead your marriage.

Have you done the assignment I gave you tonight?
Originally Posted by athena99
And I need to push through the multitude of feelings that I am having - both pining for OM and not wanting to be around BH.

This is right. You need to start walking despite those feelings. Those feelings will CHANGE if you change your actions. Those feelings are keeping you crippled and DEPRESSED. Walk forward, my friend.
Athena,

What you are seeking is much bigger, deeper and more fulfilling than enjoyment. Don't give up on yourself or your family without first trying your hardest to realize Purpose, Meaning and Faith.

CK
Originally Posted by athena99
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Get the help you need to be a healthy person from a professional. Now is not the time to dump responsibility for your faults or your personal growth on your husband.

I never said you have to go it alone. I said your husband can't help you, nor should you have many expectations until you are healthy and healed of whatever it was that made you think an affair was a healthy and loving way to have your needs met.


You are right - it is not his job to help me fix the mess I made of my life. I need to seek counselling for my depression and try meeting his needs without expecting any of my needs to be met. And I need to push through the multitude of feelings that I am having - both pining for OM and not wanting to be around BH.

I see these words in front of me and the thought of doing all that without enjoying any of it just hurts more. How long do I grin and bear it (go through the motions) before I should start feeling something for BH? Will it really take months of me being unhappy and his love bank filling up before I start to feel anything again?
Athena, you talk about "pining for OM" like it's something that's happening to you, as if you're simply being acted upon by an outside force.

(2x4 alert): One month into no contact, it's time for you to knock that crap off, okay?

This other guy tried to build his own little corner of happiness on top of other people's pain. He maintained a deception. He took what wasn't his. (Never mind that you freely offered it to him... that's beside the point. He could've said no.) He was, throughout your affair, utterly selfish. To make that dearth of character appealing, he had to be utterly duplicitous. He was able to consider your husband and say to himself, "I care not a whit about that man, my fellow human being." Your OM cared so little for your husband that he was not merely indifferent to your husband, but actively undertook actions that could reasonably be expected to have the effect of further sabotaging your husband's marriage.

Wow, Athena, sounds like a real noble soul on a white charger. Swept you off your feet, did he? He took a big, steaming dump on your marriage. No, he's not responsible for issues in your marriage pre-dating your involvement with him, but he was certainly responsible for the fine body of work & character he put together during your involvement.

I don't say any of that lightly, Athena. In addition to betraying my own wife, I was the OM for the married OW. She pined for me. And the "me" she pined for, wasn't worth pining for. The guy I was for those 10 & a half weeks was a courteous, chivalrous, handsome, caring, available, PACK OF LIES. Looked nice to her on the outside, and was just as ugly as could be inside.

And that's what you're pining for...
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Have you done the assignment I gave you tonight?


Just got the kids to bed - it is already 9pm - this is a typical night for us. We've been up since 5:30am, we're both tired and just want to go to sleep.

We have no babysitters. Our family is all at least an hour away and the closest of them is actually leaving for vacation in a couple of days. Everyone else has busy lives this time of year and we don't feel we can ask someone to drive for hours to watch our kids. We never did get a local kid to sit as we don't know anyone in our neighborhood and I don't have the energy to look around and find one. Yes, excuses, excuses. But that is just the situation.

I have the day off tomorrow and BH is taking the afternoon off. This will probably be our only alone time this week and he wants to go grocery shopping. He needs ingredients for a dish he's taking to work, so it makes sense.

Originally Posted by athena99
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Have you done the assignment I gave you tonight?


Just got the kids to bed - it is already 9pm - this is a typical night for us. We've been up since 5:30am, we're both tired and just want to go to sleep.

We have no babysitters. Our family is all at least an hour away and the closest of them is actually leaving for vacation in a couple of days. Everyone else has busy lives this time of year and we don't feel we can ask someone to drive for hours to watch our kids. We never did get a local kid to sit as we don't know anyone in our neighborhood and I don't have the energy to look around and find one. Yes, excuses, excuses. But that is just the situation.

I have the day off tomorrow and BH is taking the afternoon off. This will probably be our only alone time this week and he wants to go grocery shopping. He needs ingredients for a dish he's taking to work, so it makes sense.

Sounds like the kids need an earlier bedtime.

Spouses are to be negotiated with, not children.
Originally Posted by athena99
[We have no babysitters. Our family is all at least an hour away and the closest of them is actually leaving for vacation in a couple of days. Everyone else has busy lives this time of year and we don't feel we can ask someone to drive for hours to watch our kids. We never did get a local kid to sit as we don't know anyone in our neighborhood and I don't have the energy to look around and find one. Yes, excuses, excuses. But that is just the situation.

Ok, let me know when you are serious about recovery and ready to look for creative solutions. There isn't anything I can do if you aren't willing to do the work and I am not willing to do more work than you. Its your marriage after all.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Ok, let me know when you are serious about recovery and ready to look for creative solutions. There isn't anything I can do if you aren't willing to do the work and I am not willing to do more work than you. Its your marriage after all.


I know, I can't expect anyone to offer more help and advice until I am putting in effort of my own.

Creativity is just something I don't have right now. My brain feels like jello.

Though no matter what excuses I make or feelings I have, I know it will be the same advice. Feelings follow actions.

Originally Posted by HeadHeldHigh
Sounds like the kids need an earlier bedtime.

Spouses are to be negotiated with, not children.


Yup. Add it to the long list of things I can't do right. Ever since the first one was born, I've felt like a failure as a mom - I was completely unprepared to be a parent (and still am in many ways). And now I am realizing I was completely unprepared to be a wife.

It's a pretty deep hole I've dug myself into. It may take a while for me to dig my way out.
Originally Posted by athena99
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Ok, let me know when you are serious about recovery and ready to look for creative solutions. There isn't anything I can do if you aren't willing to do the work and I am not willing to do more work than you. Its your marriage after all.


I know, I can't expect anyone to offer more help and advice until I am putting in effort of my own.

Creativity is just something I don't have right now. My brain feels like jello.

Though no matter what excuses I make or feelings I have, I know it will be the same advice. Feelings follow actions.

Originally Posted by HeadHeldHigh
Sounds like the kids need an earlier bedtime.

Spouses are to be negotiated with, not children.


Yup. Add it to the long list of things I can't do right. Ever since the first one was born, I've felt like a failure as a mom - I was completely unprepared to be a parent (and still am in many ways). And now I am realizing I was completely unprepared to be a wife.

It's a pretty deep hole I've dug myself into. It may take a while for me to dig my way out.


Sweetheart... please remove your cranium from your rectum. All you are going to find in your descending colon is crap.

"I fail at this, I fail at that, may as well go sit in the corner and pout."

dramaqueen

Yes, you have a deep hole to dig out of... so the question is this; what are you waiting for? The right time? Never gonna happen - in fact, you couldn't have chosen a more wrong time.

Oh, now that I've crapped all over everything, now I want better! I deserve it!

clap

You want to be a better wife? You want to be a better mother? Then get off of your butt and do it!

Life can give 2 shakes less if you are unprepared, it's happening anyway.

Quote
It's a pretty deep hole I've dug myself into. It may take a while for me to dig my way out.
Put down the shovel.
So, here�s what�s been going on the last little while � my perspective only. Sorry it is so long. Hopefully that doesn't scare anyone away.

First off, I want to apologize to you all. You gave me good advice and I haven�t been following it as best as I could. I am frustrated with myself and in the sprit of the New Year, I resolve to try harder.

We�ve been spending more time together than in a very long time � Christmas shopping, working on crosswords in the morning over a cup of coffee, curling up on the couch to watch a favorite movie. I�ve been trying to do nice things for him and I know he appreciates it � he actually gets weepy when he says thank you because it�s been a long time since I�ve been really nice to him.

Problem is � I am still not feeling anything towards him. In fact, I am often overwhelmed with feelings for OM. I try to push those thoughts and feelings away, but they pop up a lot � I am reminded by so many things � stores where he liked to clothes shop with me, a brand of lotion I wear that he liked, a time on the clock that he always seemed to notice and now I can�t help but notice it too, songs on the radio we listened to together. I know it sounds childish, but the memories are really strong and even though I haven�t seen or spoken to him in over 6 weeks, I have thought about him daily and dreamt about him at least once a week. Yes, I can try to stop the �pining� � maybe that will reduce the involuntary dreaming. Last night I dreamt I was babysitting his son and actually talking to OMW about it. We were crying on the phone and I was apologizing to her.

Go ahead and say it � OM is a POS and didn�t respect me or my marriage. Neither did I. But we are only human. You warned me that BH and OMW should limit their contact regarding the A so they don�t find themselves getting into their own A � it can happen that easily.

In a way I guess I am trying to justify my feelings and thoughts, but I also know I really need advice on how to proceed. I admit I am not blindly trusting in the system here � sometimes I think it doesn�t apply to my situation and am hoping to get some guidance on what I am going through. I had read a couple of books by Mira Kirshenbaum (before D-Day) as I tried to figure out what to do with my situation. One was called �Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay� and the other was �When Good People Have Affairs�. Her advice is completely different and I am having trouble reconciling what is right for me.

I know I am not trying my hardest to make things work with BH. But I don�t know how to get close to him. I cringe at every touch and I do not look forward to kissing him. The other day he came home from work and was happy and I let him kiss me. It was sloppy and slimy and completely turned me off. I pulled away after and wiped my lips and commented that it was very wet. I know he was hoping it would be a wonderful moment, but I left him feeling like he�d failed again.

I heard you all loud and clear when you said that my wants were not to be trusted right now � I don�t know what I want. And I am supposed to �just do it� � the feelings will follow.

Question: How do the betrayed spouses feel when they know their waywards are just going through the motions out of responsibility, that they are just faking it while they wait for the real feelings to return? When he asks if I like something he is doing, should I tell him the truth (that I don�t like it), or lie and say it is fine?

I feel like I am lying to him every day � I say �I love you� but in my head it is only because I know I should be saying it. I want to crawl away when he puts his hand on my body. I am fine with holding hands as it feels platonic. But if his hand is on my thigh, I panic and my skin feels like it is on fire. My body is screaming NO.

I know he needs SF, but can I really �just do it� when my whole being is not ready for that? Don�t get me wrong, I am eager for some SF myself, but would rather be alone than involve him. I already know how it will play out and why set myself up for that disappointment?

We have a family holiday planned in a month (us, the kids and my parents) for 2 weeks in Hawaii. I am hoping that we will feel closer by then and be able to enjoy a romantic place like that. But I feel so unsure of that right now.

He is a nice guy and I married him for some nice and honorable reasons. But I worry that I have changed and my needs and wants have changed � possibly to a place that he isn�t able to meet anymore. As a result of my A, maybe we don�t fit anymore. I don�t think after 6 weeks we are any further ahead. Maybe it is still too soon. Or should we have seen some positive change by now?

I read posts by other WW and see that they are doing so much to win their BH back � because they want him back. I�m not so sure I want mine back. That is harsh and horrible to say, but I don�t feel like fighting to get anything else out of my marriage � my relationship with BH is fine the way it is � just friends. But I do want more out of a marriage � I just don�t know how to feel that way about BH.

I �know� what I should be doing � it makes perfect sense. But telling him the truth about my feelings seems so foreign. He hasn�t asked about the affair AT ALL. So, it is all still hanging out there, unexplored. I don�t think it is my job to bring it up all of the time � that would feel like kicking him even more. I think I need to wait for him to ask questions � is that right? Not that I want to get into the dirty details, but other than a couple of high-level questions, I have not shared anything significant about my last few years with him.

So, bottom line � is it still the same prescription � spend the quality time together (15+ hours per week) doing the little things? Or am I in a bigger mess? We started doing the EN questionnaire and never finished going over it together. But I am confused about whether my answers mean anything right now � can my judgment about what I want be trusted?
If the OM were completely and permanently out of the picture - if he moved to Mars or got hit by a bus and was dead - would you still feel the same way?
Originally Posted by Mulan
If the OM were completely and permanently out of the picture - if he moved to Mars or got hit by a bus and was dead - would you still feel the same way?


I think so.
Even if your marriage is not recoverable, if you leave and renew your relationship with OM (even after a D), it will likely leave your BH to feel like the affair is continuing. It will cause him a great deal of pain and you will never have him as a 'friend.'
My XWH said once, after the D, "I'm not cheating on you now" since he was dating POSOW and we were not married. Guess what - still hurt like H*LL and has made it that much harder for me to heal.
This is why Plan B is for the BS.

My question is what are you doing to recover yourself? Personal recovery after such selfish and cruel behavior should be top priority if you want to be a partner to ANYONE.
If all you have posted is true, Athena, and you are simply no longer attracted to your husband and no longer in love with him, then do him and your children a favor and move out and file for divorce. That way, he will have a chance to find a woman who does love him and desire him and your children will not be exposed to the tension and coldness of a sham marriage.

Otherwise, you are simply continuing to sit on the fence and use your husband for what he does do for you - I'm assuming those are financial support and domestic support and some amount of recreational companionship - while looking elsewhere for the rest of it.

It's not fair to him and it's not fair to your children. If you no longer love him, then get out of his way and go make your own life with someone you do care about - and let him do the same.
Originally Posted by athena99
We have had an EA for over 10 years and it has been PA for 2.

Withdrawl is going to take more than 6 weeks for a VLTA like this. I would get rid of anything you can that triggers memories of the OM - that brand/scent of lotion? Throw it out and never buy it again. Any clothes that you and he bought together? Donate them and go buy new ones with your H. Any music CD's, gifts or other trinkets that OM bought for you go in the trash.
Originally Posted by bitbucket
Withdrawl is going to take more than 6 weeks for a VLTA like this.


That's good to know. I was starting to wonder if something else were going on. I guess since it wasn't just a ONS, that I have a lot more to get over and it may take a while. We were friends for so long and there are so many reminders of that relationship. I recently found a gift OMW gave me at my wedding shower. I felt like such crap. Partly because she and I used to be friends and partly because I missed OM. I am a packrat and see sentimental value in the silliest things ... I think that may need to change as it is making the withdrawal so much harder now.
Athena,

Quote
I am a packrat and see sentimental value in the silliest things
An interesting comment coming from someone who sees no value in her H other than what she can get from him without providing something for him.

Athena, this is going to be very very harsh, but it is time to call a spade a spade. You are a poor mother, a poor W, and a poor human being because you WANT TO BE POOR AT ALL OF THOSE THINGS. It is not genetic, it is not some deep failure in you, it is simply what you want in your life and thus you have succeeded.

YOU self-destructively had an affair with your close friend's H, you don't run your house like you claim it should be run, and you don't love your H because you simply don't want to.

I have no clue what you get out of doing things the way you want to do them, but make no mistake you find it to your advantage to lead your life this way, rather than how you claim you want to lead it.

My guess is your depressed and you get a "high" from your failures and the drama in your life. I also think that you don't divorce your H because you KNOW that OM will not find it attractive how you run your household and family. He won't appreciate you not getting the kids to bed, you being unavailable to him, you whining all of the time.

I feel like the retired DI playing a counselor in the TV add, and I feel like throwing the box of cleanex at you as well.

Woman, if you want a good life, if you want a good family, if you want to love your H, YOU NEED TO GET OFF OF DEAD CENTER and start setting some goals, and then making plans to reach them.

Our advice or anyone else's advice is a waste of time until such time as you try to actually achieve something in your life. If I were running your life the following would happen within a few weeks.

1. YOu would be at a Dr. office getting a full work up to see if there is physical reason for your behavior and thinking. At the very least you would be getting some Meds to address the depression.

2. You would be sitting down and writing up some goals for your life, what you want, who you want to be, what characteristics in humans do you admire and want to immulate, etc.

3. You would then designing plans to achieve those goals, and if you have decided you want your H in your life he would be helping you with these plans.

And then the real work would begin.

You have no goals, you have no plans, thus no advice will actually help you. It really is that simple Athena99.

Ok, sermon is over.

I do hope you think about this and really really seek some medical evaluations and advice.

God Bless,

JL
@athena99 -

You are still wrapped up in the Fog.

Your entire post to me screams out about how you are not being open and honest with your BS.

You start off telling us that you've been placating your BS, "being nice".

Then we start hearing how you are addicted to OM.

Then you tell us how hard it is for you to show affection to your BS.

And finally:

Originally Posted by athena99
He is a nice guy and I married him for some nice and honorable reasons. But I worry that I have changed and my needs and wants have changed � possibly to a place that he isn�t able to meet anymore. As a result of my A, maybe we don�t fit anymore. I don�t think after 6 weeks we are any further ahead. Maybe it is still too soon. Or should we have seen some positive change by now?

@athena99 -

Your A was not special! You did not become enlightened because of the A. Those needs that you spoke of were always there. They didn't change.

If you are honest with yourself, you know that for 10 years you have been letting OM meet those needs. And in order for that to happen you have been lying and cheating to your BS. You never were open and honest about those needs. You never let BS meet them. How do you know that you "don't fit anymore"? You've never let your BS meet them. Why don't you be honest with your BS about your needs.

I can't believe that the only needs of your BS are Affection and Sexual Fulfillment. What other top ENs of your BS are you meeting?
Originally Posted by Just Learning
Athena, this is going to be very very harsh, but it is time to call a spade a spade. You are a poor mother, a poor W, and a poor human being because you WANT TO BE POOR AT ALL OF THOSE THINGS. It is not genetic, it is not some deep failure in you, it is simply what you want in your life and thus you have succeeded.

I know you are right. I made these choices, no one else. I just feel sometimes like I am trying to make the right choices and do the right things, but they are never enough or often don't go the way I expected. I did make a mistake in having an A - I should have made a better decision. I have had inappropriate boundaries with males since I was a teenager and I see now that it hasn't changed. I have never respected any relationship I've been in - I have usually had urges to or actually followed through on cheating.

Originally Posted by Just Learning
1. YOu would be at a Dr. office getting a full work up to see if there is physical reason for your behavior and thinking. At the very least you would be getting some Meds to address the depression.

Already on 'em. They help a lot. I doubled my dosage after D-Day as I felt even more anxiety.

Originally Posted by Just Learning
3. You would then designing plans to achieve those goals, and if you have decided you want your H in your life he would be helping you with these plans.

That's the kicker. I have a decent H, yet I feel all alone and unhappy. I would rather be really alone than have a daily reminder that I don't have (and maybe don't even want) a satisfying relationship with him.
Athena,

You have not addressed what you get from your behavior and thinking. Clearly the affairs, the lack of boundaries, the lack of goals, etc. give you something that is more important than your children, your H, and even your friends. You will cheat them all to gain...what? What have you gained with your choices?

JL
Originally Posted by clark_kent
You are still wrapped up in the Fog.

Your entire post to me screams out about how you are not being open and honest with your BS.

The honesty feels horrific - how many times can I say the same painful things and not get anywhere with it.

Originally Posted by clark_kent
I can't believe that the only needs of your BS are Affection and Sexual Fulfillment. What other top ENs of your BS are you meeting?


You are right, I am not working very hard to meet his other needs. We haven't gone over the list, but I'll bet Admiration and Recreational Companionship are in the top 4 along with Affection and SF. It just makes me uncomfortable to do anything for him because I am afraid to get too close and trigger anything sexual.
This is what I think you should do....

1.) trash everything that reminds you of OM even if its a brides maid dress his mom made (happened to my sis, she trashed it)

2.) Tell your husband what you are feeling and thinking every night, no more secrets! He needs to know how you really feel so when you do leave he wont be like "what the h*ll? I thought everything was good"

3.) Do the questionnaire with him every month to update it frequently.

4.) Keep meeting his needs

5.) Let HIM MEET YOUR NEEDS!

6.) Start appreciating your H

7.) Start respecting your H and your family

8.) STOP THINKING ABOUT OM!!!!!!!!! When you start thinking of him immediately think of your H, a memory that made you happy, or think of something nice that your H did for you.

I suggest you do this for 6 months if you are still feeling this way then file for a divorce but if you are truly doing number 2 then it will not be a big shock to your H that you left, he will understand, but it will still hurt.

Just an FYI you will never feel happy if you think divorce is the answer I know someone that divorced her husband because she didn't love him anymore and wanna know what I see?

Always broke
can't afford bills
going to one man to the next
doesn't take care of herself
Keeps changing her mind of what she wants to do in her life
has gone through 3 jobs
Always seems sad when I talk to her

Good luck.

AND NO MORE EXCUSES!!

Athena,

I am not a psych type, but I am a problem solver and I do have a nodding acquaintance with human behavior. Actually, much more than a nodding acquaintance.

Let me explain something to you. There many ways to express the complex behavior or human beings, but there is one simple way to express it.
Quote
The primary motivators in life are FEAR and GREED.
Not love, but fear and greed.

So let's take this rather streamlined way of addressing human behavior and look at what you just said.
Quote
It just makes me uncomfortable to do anything for him because I am afraid to get too close and trigger anything sexual.
Got any idea why you feel this way? I sure do.

For 10 years you had an emotional affair with OM, and for 10 years you needed to hide it from your H. You know that SF specifically is a way to emotionally bond especially for men. You feared being discovered, and thus you had to hide your feelings and emotional attachment. How to do this? Simple you avoid being attached emotionally to your H, thus you could hide your affair. You feared discovery and you wanted your affair with OM, although you KNEW/KNOW it was wrong.

How to do this? Simple really, your mind developed a "sexual aversion" to your H. Sexual aversion can be dealt with, in fact Harley has at least one article on it. But, the reality is you don't want to address this aversion. Fear and Greed dear lady, you respond to it just as everyone else does and your H and your children are paying for it.

I repeat what are your goals in life?

JL
Quote
It just makes me uncomfortable to do anything for him because I am afraid to get too close and trigger anything sexual.

Then you need to be open and honest with your BS about this, instead of avoiding Conflict.

The questions are:

Do you want to have SF with OM, that is why you don't want SF with BS?

-Or-

Do you want your ENs for affection met without the requisite meeting of BS need for SF?

Either way this is your Taker. When are you going to let your Giver be in charge? Do you also see how either question is making a judgment on your BS? You really need to be POJAing this. OBTW, if you POJA this, you will be meeting one of the 4 Initimate Needs (Conversation).

It is okay to have conflict. Have you studied the Three States of Marriage? The only way you can get from Withdrawal to Intimacy is through Conflict. Is your Giver in charge of saving your marriage or is your Taker?
Originally Posted by Just Learning
Athena,

You have not addressed what you get from your behavior and thinking. Clearly the affairs, the lack of boundaries, the lack of goals, etc. give you something that is more important than your children, your H, and even your friends. You will cheat them all to gain...what? What have you gained with your choices?

JL


Maybe this is a lifelong mid-life crisis.

I like the excitement of something new. Though with OM, it was a long friendship and a physical/emotional passion that was still going strong after 2+ years. I didn't feel a need to stray when i was with him (though that is unfair to say because we were never in a "real" relationship). But I thought about that a lot - how horrible it would be to do something like that to him - partly because I knew how it would hurt him and how he would react (yes, I see how sick that must sound). He was very good at communicating his thoughts and feelings and I was also good at communicating mine with him.

BH and I are not that good at communicating and I sometimes wonder if he will ever show any passion for me at all. Not that I was testing him by having an A, but I guess I didn't think he'd care too much even if he did find out. I'd have my fun and he would probably never know - no harm done. I was quite naive - I never thought I would develop a deeper emotional connection to OM or that it would affect what I had left with BH.

I think a lot of it does boil down to SF and Attractive Spouse. That sounds so shallow, but they are very important to me. I know what turns me on and what I find sexy. BH doesn't do it for me. Just the other day I was enjoying having very inappropriate thoughts about a man in my son's karate class.

BH and I have kids, so obviously we've had sex before, but since OM, I am used to something else, something more satisfying to me. And since SF is really important to me, if it isn't working, I feel apathetic about the rest.
Originally Posted by clark_kent
Do you want to have SF with OM, that is why you don't want SF with BS?

-Or-

Do you want your ENs for affection met without the requisite meeting of BS need for SF?

SF was very satisfying with OM. Not so much with BH. I enjoy SF and don't want to go without it either, I'm just not that attracted to BH.

Originally Posted by clark_kent
Either way this is your Taker. When are you going to let your Giver be in charge? Do you also see how either question is making a judgment on your BS? You really need to be POJAing this. OBTW, if you POJA this, you will be meeting one of the 4 Initimate Needs (Conversation).

It is okay to have conflict. Have you studied the Three States of Marriage? The only way you can get from Withdrawal to Intimacy is through Conflict. Is your Giver in charge of saving your marriage or is your Taker?


I completely agree. I am in the State of Withdrawal right now and totally avoiding Conflict (not telling BH what I am thinking/feeling). I need to investigate the Giver part more.
@athena99 -

Quote
BH and I have kids, so obviously we've had sex before, but since OM, I am used to something else, something more satisfying to me. And since SF is really important to me, if it isn't working, I feel apathetic about the rest.

OPEN AND HONEST with your BS

Uhhh... When is this going to happen? Why do you keep judging your BS?
@athena99 -

I get it. Duh. Your BS is a total passive weenie. He hasn't stood up and kicked your azz to the curb. Your BS has no balls. LOL! athena99, you think your BS is a spineless idiot who couldn't give two [censored] mushrooms that you had an affair. What part did you play in emasculating your BS? Lying and cheating.

Oh, but if you had a "real" relationship with OM and you had done this to him, he would be all wild azzed crazy fighting to save this relationship.

Puhleez, you and OM didn't communicate. He said the things that made you feel good so he could get his. Where is this OM fighting for your "relationship". He used you! Very attractive, you were nothing to him. Just something to use for his own selfish needs.

Quote
Maybe this is a lifelong mid-life crisis.
No it is not. This is you not being open and honest with your BS. This is you being a lying cheating wayward to get her needs met.

Originally Posted by clark_kent
Why do you keep judging your BS?


How is it judging? I don't understand.
Originally Posted by clark_kent
Where is this OM fighting for your "relationship". He used you! Very attractive, you were nothing to him. Just something to use for his own selfish needs.

I know I am treading into deeper, foggy water here, but I will be honest with you all. I believe that OM understood and respected my desire to try and fix my marriage. We had talked about it for a very long time (should we leave or should we stay) and when I finally made a decision, I believe he stepped back to give me that chance.
Originally Posted by athena99
Though with OM, it was a long friendship and a physical/emotional passion that was still going strong after 2+ years.

He was very good at communicating his thoughts and feelings and I was also good at communicating mine with him.

I hope you will be able to look back someday at how truly pathetic your words are. You're still making your reprehensible, adulteress affair out to be some sort of magical love story.

It was not a real relationship, athena. It was ALL based on lies and deception. A total fantasy land.

But alas, there's really no getting through to you right now. You still have a completely skewed view of reality. Your thinking isn't right.

I hope you can snap out of it eventually and see the truth. But sadly, I see you spinning your wheels and winding up in the exact same place in six months.

Following your heeeeartttt. Isn't that sweet? And so, so special?

I promise it will only get you exactly where you are right now.
Originally Posted by clark_kent
I get it. Duh. Your BS is a total passive weenie. He hasn't stood up and kicked your azz to the curb. Your BS has no balls. LOL! athena99, you think your BS is a spineless idiot who couldn't give two [censored] mushrooms that you had an affair. What part did you play in emasculating your BS? Lying and cheating.


I cannot deny that. But how can I restore his masculinity?
Originally Posted by athena99
I cannot deny that. But how can I restore his masculinity?

By no longer allowing three people in your marriage.
Originally Posted by athena99
I cannot deny that. But how can I restore his masculinity?
Originally Posted by Delta_
By no longer allowing three people in your marriage.


The A is over, but I am still in withdrawal, so does that still count as the 3rd person? Aside from trying to put OM out of my thoughts, what else can I do?
Perhaps after helping him heal, you say you will not remain in a marriage with someone who is not a man there for you and willing to stand up for himself.

But right now, he's likely very much emotionally injured if not comatose.
As mentioned multiple times here-- be open and honest with your BS. Tell him what you are thinking and feeling. That is what he signed up for.
Originally Posted by athena99
How is it judging? I don't understand.

You don't see the judgment here?
Quote
...but since OM, I am used to something else, something more satisfying to me. And since SF is really important to me, if it isn't working, I feel apathetic about the rest.
OM does it for me. BS doesn't. Since you've not communicated your needs to BS he still doesn't meet it.

This is called Contrast Effect. You are comparing OM to your BS. As @JL stated you've had to create a dissonance from reality. You've purposely created an aversion to your BS meeting your needs. Otherwise, why would you need to have an affair if your BS could meet your needs.

Originally Posted by athena99
The A is over, but I am still in withdrawal, so does that still count as the 3rd person?

Yes.

I know it's over. I've been reading and responding to your thread from the beginning.

But you're still fantasizing (and it is only that ... a fantasy) about the OM constantly.

Originally Posted by athena99
Aside from trying to put OM out of my thoughts, what else can I do?

That is exactly what you need to do.

But tell us, what steps have you taken to remove OM from your thoughts?
Originally Posted by athena99
I believe that OM understood and respected my desire to try and fix my marriage. We had talked about it for a very long time (should we leave or should we stay) and when I finally made a decision, I believe he stepped back to give me that chance.

What other possibilities could there have been?

List them!
Originally Posted by athena99
I believe that OM understood and respected my desire to try and fix my marriage. We had talked about it for a very long time (should we leave or should we stay) and when I finally made a decision, I believe he stepped back to give me that chance.

puke

I'm sure he did. After all, he has already proven he can bed you while you are married... he's not threatened by you "improving" your marriage... you'd probably still answer that 3AM drunken phone call.

Sounds like a swell guy.

The OM in my situation did the same; "I'm happy for you."

puke

Why? Because they don't want all of you just what you decided to give so easily and freely.
Originally Posted by athena99
So, bottom line � is it still the same prescription � spend the quality time together (15+ hours per week) doing the little things? Or am I in a bigger mess? We started doing the EN questionnaire and never finished going over it together. But I am confused about whether my answers mean anything right now � can my judgment about what I want be trusted?

Athena, it sounds like things are going GREAT and I thank you checking in with us!! I wondered how you were doing and it sounds like things are going along just as expected. When withdrawing from anything, of course it does not come overnight. It comes in a matter of MONTHS. And you are still high off your last drunk. But hang in there and your feelings will follow. It takes anywhere from 3 to 10 months to withdraw and for your feelings to start coming back for your H.

A couple of things stand out to me. The first is the amount of undivided attention time you spend together. It takes 15 hours per week to MAINTAIN and 25-30 to CREATE. So your current 15 hours a week is not going to CUT IT. And as Dr Harley says, THIS PROGRAM DOES NOT WORK WITHOUT THAT!!

And lastly, STOP talking about and writing about that POSOM. He is a piece of dogcrap who treated you like trash. While you don't realize that now [you will, I promise!!] you will in the future. And talking and writing about him just keeps the stinky memory ALIVE. Don't give life to that thought.

Keep up the good work!! hurray
Athena,

You gave OM 10 YEARS of your undivided emotional attention, and you then say your H never did it for you. How could he? He never had a chance. You have lied, cheated, and fornicated for 10 years and now you miss it. I would guess it was in fact the lying, the cheating, that made everything so exciting.

I mean rearing children can be so BORING, and working with H on bills, the house, the kids, can be sooooo BORING.

You are in withdrawal, but your assumptions about your H are very likely VERY VERY wrong. He was just never given a chance, and you are not giving him a chance now either. YOu have dismissed him, and what he has gone through as just a sign of weakness and failure on his part. The person that failed was you and as long as you function with no goals, no plan, you will continue to fail.

Mel is being very charitable with you, listen to her.

God Bless,

JL
Originally Posted by athena99
[I know I am treading into deeper, foggy water here, but I will be honest with you all. I believe that OM understood and respected my desire to try and fix my marriage.

rotflmao rotflmao

Quote
and when I finally made a decision, I believe he stepped back to give me that chance

Nope, he dumped your a*s like a hot potato when his wife found out. The notion that he "respects" you in any way was proven false by his disrespectful actions. A married man is not going to give up his own wife for an easy piece of [censored]. Sorry to be harsh, but you need to hear how sane people view your silly comments.

And I am on your side so I would be remiss if I didn't point out how silly these comments are. He dumped you, my friend.

WAKE UP!! WAKE UP!! A man who does a married woman does not love her or "respect" her or he wouldn't be doing her!!

Athena, I am sorry to laugh, but you can't seriously imagine that a man who climbs into the pig pen and ruts with a marriage woman "respect[s] her desire to fix her marriage."

C'mon, you have to have realized how ludicrous that was when you typed it out, right? grin I actually spewed my coffee when I read that, hon...
Originally Posted by Just Learning
Mel is being very charitable with you, listen to her.

you spoke too soon, JL, I couldn't help myself!!! Nooo

p.s. great posts!! smile
Nah Mel,

You are being charitable to her and that is a good thing. clap

I am having a hard time with this because I know what she is saying and has been telling herself for 10 years is a self-fulfilling process that rationalized her doing this to her marriage for a decade. It frustrates me because underneath I think there is likely a good woman but she has sacrificed everything for this guy who as you pointed out, stopped as soon as his W found out. Well Duh! he was going to lose too much.

Athena, doesn't seem to want to acknowledge how much she has given away and will lose when this marriage ends. It is a sad thing.

JL
Athena,

Have you destroyed any and all mementos of the OM?

I mean, ANY AND ALL, period.

Pictures, notes, messages, outfits you wore with him, things he bought you, EVERYTHING.

It ALL HAS TO GO.

Anything you keep around that is a reminder of the OM HAS TO GO.


If you had sex in your car, YOU HAVE TO SELL YOUR CAR.

Whatever perfume you have been wearing while spending the last 10 years with OM, MUST NEVER BE WORN AGAIN.

Hopefully your H and him do not wear the same cologne.

You need to destroy all memory triggers possible.

Not only that, any friends involved in your adulterous behavior MUST NO LONGER BE ASSOCIATED WITH.

You are building a new better you, and remnants of that old life must be banished.
Hi Athena - sounds like things are moving along normally! I think you're being very honest with us and are still de-fogging. That's normal and will take awhile. So far so good!

HHH is right - unload everything that triggers you to think about OM. Get rid of the car if you have to.

I apologize if I missed this, but I assume you're still at the same job? Where did OM go?
Athena (and the rest)

I can sort of understand where you are. Perhaps I am imposing my own situation a bit but I think I hear you asking how does a WS be honest about such painful things after she has already ripped her husband's heart out.

I don't know how your BH is responding when you do try to tell him something but mine goes between telling me I have a lot of nerve given what I've done and withdrawing entirely.

I am not even talking about such intimate stuff as SF. For instance, just today I nicely let him know how I feel. He is away on a work trip that I'm not certain is entirely necessary; however, I did agree to him going. We have had a family crisis while he is gone which I am dealing with but it has me stressed. Last night he stated he was in a meeting until well after 10. This morning he did not call me until after 8:00. This is promblematic because the building I work in is a dead zone for cell phones and I can't call out long distance from a landline. He KNOWS this but couldn't make the effort to call a few minutes earlier when I was driving to work or what not. A DJ on my part would be to say he doesn't want to deal with the problem so he deliberately waited. I did not say that too him but since I was so hurt I did say that I would love it if he could get himself up a couple minutes earlier to call me before work. He abruptly ended the conversation and then texted to say "have a good day and I love you."

I don't know where to go with this.

I can't even imagine telling him something I want or need in the bedroom.

My affair wasn't long term so it isn't exactly the same. I do agree it stopped me from addressing things with my H. In fact, we got a long great since I had no complaints about my needs.

Now, I am trying to be open and honest. He is hurt and angry. If your H isn't willing to address the elephant in the room, it does make it a lot harder.

I admire you for coming here and opening yourself up to 2X4's. I am hoping someone can give you some concrete advice rather than "stop thinking about OM".

I agree with JL that fear is a motivator. I am fearful of breaking up my family. I do not want OM...I'm not certain I am fit for anyone.

Good luck to you.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Nope, he dumped your a*s like a hot potato when his wife found out. The notion that he "respects" you in any way was proven false by his disrespectful actions. A married man is not going to give up his own wife for an easy piece of [censored]. Sorry to be harsh, but you need to hear how sane people view your silly comments.


I know I'll get a 2x4 for this, but I just want to point out that after his W found out, OM and I continued seeing each other for another month, we just went further underground. It wasn't until I started thinking about the advice from my counsellor and coming on here that I told the truth to BH and went NC with OM. He tried to contact me, but I refused to answer.

I don't know why I feel the need to defend him. Probably the fog. But that makes it harder. He didn't do anything in the end to make me mad or hurt me so it was just me walking away from him.
Originally Posted by sunnydaze53
I admire you for coming here and opening yourself up to 2X4's. I am hoping someone can give you some concrete advice rather than "stop thinking about OM".


SD, she was given very concrete advice from those who are in recovered marriages. Did you read the posts? You might learn something yourself and have a great marriage too.
Originally Posted by athena99
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Nope, he dumped your a*s like a hot potato when his wife found out. The notion that he "respects" you in any way was proven false by his disrespectful actions. A married man is not going to give up his own wife for an easy piece of [censored]. Sorry to be harsh, but you need to hear how sane people view your silly comments.


I know I'll get a 2x4 for this, but I just want to point out that after his W found out, OM and I continued seeing each other for another month, we just went further underground. It wasn't until I started thinking about the advice from my counsellor and coming on here that I told the truth to BH and went NC with OM. He tried to contact me, but I refused to answer.

Do you really believe he would leave his wife and family for you, Athena? Really? frown Because if that were true, wouldn't he have done that? Wouldn't he have done that in all these years? The truth is that he didn't - and wouldn't. What he wanted was some cheap nookie on the side. That is all. He wanted to keep his nookie supply opened.

Sure, he tried to get in touch with you. He wanted to keep his set up. Who wouldn't. But that does not mean he valued you. If he valued you, he would not have had an affair with you and used you in this manner.

The fog will wear off, Athena, and you will be astonished at this thread some day.
Originally Posted by athena99
[He didn't do anything in the end to make me mad or hurt me

Yes, he did hurt you. Very much. You just don't realize it yet.
Melody if you have anything to offer to my "13 month" thread I would appreciate it. I've always respected your opinions on here. I tried to PM you but it's turned off.
Originally Posted by sunnydaze53
I don't know how your BH is responding when you do try to tell him something but mine goes between telling me I have a lot of nerve given what I've done and withdrawing entirely.

Well, BH and I had a chat last night. He read my posts yesterday (even though he knew he shouldn't) - but I understand the curiousity. He wanted to know what mess he was coming home to - I've been up and down lately I know he was looking for some warning. What he read was really hard on him and he regretted reading it almost immediately. But I knew he had and was already preparing to talk about it.

Anyway, we realized that we are in a State of Withdrawal and avoiding conflict. Neither one of us wants to talk - for our own reasons:
- First, I don't want to bring it all up and hurt him more unless he is willing to hear it (so I think he should initiate).
- Second, he is getting tired of hearing me cut him down (don't blame him).
- Third, he is fearful that starting to talk is just the beginning of the end.

So, we make nice and avoid everything. It is obviously not working.

But, on the bright side, we did talk a lot last night. He asked a lot of questions about the A and I answered them honestly. I was unsure if I should be volunteering info that he hasn't directly asked or keep it to myself until he brings it up. I don't want to hide it, but I also don't want to spring things on him unless he is ready for it. Is this the trickle truth I've been reading about? I will tell him everything, I just want him to be ready for it.

We talked about some heavy stuff and by the end I have to admit I felt a lot closer to him. Shopping and doing crosswords are fun, but they are not intimate. I thrive on intimate conversation and I got some last night so I am feeling much better. I was even comfortable spooning him in bed last night - no funny business, just affection.

But I also told him the truth about my feelings for OM and how I am still very sexually attracted to him. This really bothers BH because he feels very inadequate now. Maybe our SF was fine before, but I have gained more experience with OM and want different things. Is it fair of me to request them of BH or is that a terrible insult ("I want you to be more like OM")?

Originally Posted by sunnydaze53
I am not even talking about such intimate stuff as SF. For instance, just today I nicely let him know how I feel. He is away on a work trip that I'm not certain is entirely necessary; however, I did agree to him going. We have had a family crisis while he is gone which I am dealing with but it has me stressed. Last night he stated he was in a meeting until well after 10. This morning he did not call me until after 8:00. This is promblematic because the building I work in is a dead zone for cell phones and I can't call out long distance from a landline. He KNOWS this but couldn't make the effort to call a few minutes earlier when I was driving to work or what not. A DJ on my part would be to say he doesn't want to deal with the problem so he deliberately waited. I did not say that too him but since I was so hurt I did say that I would love it if he could get himself up a couple minutes earlier to call me before work. He abruptly ended the conversation and then texted to say "have a good day and I love you."

I don't know where to go with this.

I am so sorry about that. Personally, I find DJ are really tough to avoid and you did a great job handling it better. My guess is he felt guilty about not calling earlier and perhaps the text is a veiled apology.

Originally Posted by sunnydaze53
I agree with JL that fear is a motivator. I am fearful of breaking up my family. I do not want OM...I'm not certain I am fit for anyone.

I hear ya sister. Fear is a biggie.

Not fit for anyone, eh? Sounds like something I would say. But reading it coming from someone else makes me realize how untrue it is. Either you can change to be who you want to be and who your H needs, or you can find someone that does make you happy (just make sure you follow MB).

One of the things we opened up last night was my vast sexual history (compared to BH). I was quite promiscuous and not terribly respectful of myself, but I chalked it up to being a young, sexually liberated woman. Problem is, I am now a married woman with children and I shouldn't be acting that way anymore. But I don't feel any older or more mature and still want my freedom to behave that way. BH doesn't understand because I am his one and only. I knew that and when I married him, so I guess I knowingly took on the sole responsibility of teaching him. I neglected that duty and left him alone in the dust - how do I expect him to catch up now?
STOP TALKING ABOUT OM!!!

Every time you talk about other man your feelings for him surfaces! Do you not see this???

That is why I told you in my last post NOT to think or talk about other man when you start thinking about him start thinking about your DH.

What is wrong with you?

You are literally self sabotaging your marriage every time you get on here and post something about OM.

If you want your marriage to work then...

STOP THINKING ABOUT OM!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You can not do that until you start gaining control of your though process otherwise...

What you think about you'll bring about.

Good luck.

P.S the only time you should talk about him is with your husband being open and honest! laugh but stop talking about OM on here! We do not give a rats @$$ about him, so stop it!
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Do you really believe he would leave his wife and family for you, Athena? Really? frown Because if that were true, wouldn't he have done that? Wouldn't he have done that in all these years? The truth is that he didn't - and wouldn't. What he wanted was some cheap nookie on the side. That is all. He wanted to keep his nookie supply opened.

Sure, he tried to get in touch with you. He wanted to keep his set up. Who wouldn't. But that does not mean he valued you. If he valued you, he would not have had an affair with you and used you in this manner.


I really believed it. I thought he was more likely to leave than I was. The last couple of months before OMW found out it felt like we were getting much closer to making a decision and I think if she hadn't, things might have gone very differently.

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
The fog will wear off, Athena, and you will be astonished at this thread some day.


I hope you are right.
Originally Posted by athena99
We talked about some heavy stuff and by the end I have to admit I felt a lot closer to him. Shopping and doing crosswords are fun, but they are not intimate. I thrive on intimate conversation and I got some last night so I am feeling much better. I was even comfortable spooning him in bed last night - no funny business, just affection.


In my last post I recommend you tell your husband what your thinking about what you are feeling because of exactly this!! Once you open up to him and tell him everything you will start falling back in love with him.
Originally Posted by athena99
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Do you really believe he would leave his wife and family for you, Athena? Really? frown Because if that were true, wouldn't he have done that? Wouldn't he have done that in all these years? The truth is that he didn't - and wouldn't. What he wanted was some cheap nookie on the side. That is all. He wanted to keep his nookie supply opened.

Sure, he tried to get in touch with you. He wanted to keep his set up. Who wouldn't. But that does not mean he valued you. If he valued you, he would not have had an affair with you and used you in this manner.


I really believed it. I thought he was more likely to leave than I was. The last couple of months before OMW found out it felt like we were getting much closer to making a decision and I think if she hadn't, things might have gone very differently.

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
The fog will wear off, Athena, and you will be astonished at this thread some day.


I hope you are right.


OH. MY. FREAKING. GOD.

10 years Athena. 10 freaking years. If the jerkwad can't make the freaking decision in 10 years, what makes you think he ever would?

Don't you have ANY value in yourself, woman?

Pull your damn head out of your cooter. You were a playtoy, and he got caught playing.

End. of. story.
Originally Posted by athena99
[
I really believed it. I thought he was more likely to leave than I was. The last couple of months before OMW found out it felt like we were getting much closer to making a decision and I think if she hadn't, things might have gone very differently.

He had 10 years to leave his wife for you. If he wanted to make that decision it would have made no difference if his wife found out.
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Hi Athena - sounds like things are moving along normally! I think you're being very honest with us and are still de-fogging. That's normal and will take awhile. So far so good!

HHH is right - unload everything that triggers you to think about OM. Get rid of the car if you have to.


I would literally need to move to another country that doesn't speak english to avoid triggers for OM. I've known him for 1/3 of my life and he's been involved in so many aspects of it. I can get rid of the "stuff", but I can't dump my hobbies (he was a big supporter of my artistic abilities) or some of our shared interests (the planet Mars).

In a psychology course at University I remember learning that when a person is trying to give up an addiction like smoking, in the beginning the will power is very high. While it is high, you should not avoid the triggers that made you want to smoke - go to the old places, hang out with the old people - but use your strength to not smoke. This will help break the connection between the places/people and the smoking so that later on when your resolve is a lot less, you won't be triggered into slipping up. It is about conditioning yourself to remove the trigger.

I'm not saying that as an excuse, I am just relaying something I think has some value.

So, to incorporate that - I would get rid of as many triggers as possible, but the ones I can't get rid of, use my resolve to think of something other than OM when I am around/involved in them. Hopefully it will break the connection and conditioning so those things don't trigger thinking about him anymore.

Originally Posted by maritalbliss
I apologize if I missed this, but I assume you're still at the same job? Where did OM go?


He left the site where I work, but is still employed by the same company. While it helps that I don't see him anymore, there are still possibilities for running into each other. It is a relatively small town as far as our jobs go, so even if one of us quit, we may encounter each other one day.

So far, BH and I are ok with this (we POJA'd it) and will deal with any issues as they come up. In fact, I had to let BH know the other day that someone else in the company needed info from me and requested I also CC OM. There was no personal contact (just business), so I felt ok with it. I doubt there will ever need to be any personal contact and I would expect OM to also be doing his hardest to avoid it too (I am assuming he and OMW are working on things in a similar fashion).

BH and I aren't the "just do it" type of people, so any major change would need to take some time. I think if things start to feel uncomfortable, we will address it. But I do have my resume up-to-date and some names to call if I need to hit the eject button.

Moving is a very undesirable option as we chose this location and built our dream house. We are close to family and our kids are settled. I do understand the "extraordinary measures" and if they become necessary, then we'll POJA that too.
Originally Posted by athena99
But I also told him the truth about my feelings for OM and how I am still very sexually attracted to him. This really bothers BH because he feels very inadequate now. Maybe our SF was fine before, but I have gained more experience with OM and want different things. Is it fair of me to request them of BH or is that a terrible insult ("I want you to be more like OM")?

oh no. Please don't bring the remnants of the pig pen into your marriage. You will regret it when your fog wears off. Barnyard acts will keep you both triggered. A better alternative is to find creative ways of making love that you both enjoy that are unique to your marriage.

Don't emulate a failed relationship, Athena. The goal here is to create a romantic, passionate marriage, not emulate a FAILED filthy affair.
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
OH. MY. FREAKING. GOD.

10 years Athena. 10 freaking years. If the jerkwad can't make the freaking decision in 10 years, what makes you think he ever would?


I should clarify something. When I said 10 years of EA, perhaps I was unclear in the definition of EA. We had a very close friendship and very intimate talks, but we didn't declare any feelings at that time. We had moments of sexual tension, but we each thought we were the only ones experiencing them.

About 4 years ago, the EA officially started. We said the words and acknowledged something between us. But we didn't go PA for quite a while.

It probably doesn't make a difference. The flirting and desire was there for most of the relationship - the full 10+ years.

Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Don't you have ANY value in yourself, woman?

Pull your damn head out of your cooter. You were a playtoy, and he got caught playing.

End. of. story.


I have to admit, I hear your words, but they are not resonating with me (yet). I can see how it looks, but that's not how it felt. It may take a while for me to see it that way.
Originally Posted by athena99
[ While it is high, you should not avoid the triggers that made you want to smoke - go to the old places, hang out with the old people - but use your strength to not smoke. This will help break the connection between the places/people and the smoking so that later on when your resolve is a lot less, you won't be triggered into slipping up. It is about conditioning yourself to remove the trigger.

This is bad advice that is not based on simple logic. It doesn't comprehend that one does not have willpower over their addiction in the first place. If they had willpower, they wouldn't have been addicted. An addict has already lost the battle of willpower, so this premise misses that point.

It does not make an alcoholic stronger by sitting around a bar, it makes him vulnerable to his addiction and more likely that he will pick up the drink again. If I sit in the bar and stare at a drink all day, that drink stays top of mind. And eventually the weak moment will collide with opportunity and I am off and drinking again. If I had willpower over booze, I wouldn't be an alcoholic in the first place.

So no, trying to depend on will power to prevent relapses is a fools game that is only tempting fate. It is a test of stupidity. Just ask anyone who has successfully recovered from an addiction.

Quote
He left the site where I work, but is still employed by the same company. While it helps that I don't see him anymore, there are still possibilities for running into each other. It is a relatively small town as far as our jobs go, so even if one of us quit, we may encounter each other one day.

I would strongly suggest you move if you are serious about recovering your marriage. Any encounter will put you back to day 1 of recovery and dramatically increases the risk of a resumed affair. So, I would not only QUIT, I would make plans to move since, by your own admission, it is a small town.

And I bet you even drive by his house and do other things to trigger yourself, don't you? Are you looking up his facebook page every day?







Dr. Harley in Coping with Infidelity: Part 2
How Should Affairs End?


Never see or communicate with a former lover

Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.

The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through he11. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

<snip>

We don't know if R.J. still sees his lover, but he says he has broken off all contact. In many cases where a person is still in town, that's hard to prove. But one thing's for sure, if he ever does see his lover, it will put him in a state of perpetual withdrawal from his addiction, and make the resolution of his marriage essentially impossible. In fact, one of the reasons he is not recovering after three months of separation may be that he is not being truthful about the separation.

Entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

How to Survive an Affair chapter in HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS
p. 177

...I have seen husbands build new and wonderful relationships with their wives but then go back to their lovers after five or six years of what appeared to be marital bliss. When I ask them why, they inevitably tell me they miss the woman terribly and still love her. At the same time they stoutly affirm they love their wives dearly and would not think of leaving them.

I believe a man like this has told the truth. He is hopelessly entangled and needs all the help possible to be kept away from his lover and stay faithful to his wife. I often recommend that a man once involved in an affair come in to see me every three to six months on an indefinite basis, just to talk about how things are going and to let me know how successfully he has stayed away from his lover. He must resign himself to a lifetime without her. HE MUST CERTAINLY NOT WORK WITH HIS FORMER LOVER AND SHOULD PROBABLY LIVE IN SOME OTHER CITY OR STATE. Even with those restrictions the desire for her company persists...
Athena, first time to post on your thread. When I look back at your earlier threads it seems you were more enthusiatic about recovery. Perhaps you should read your comments on physcology course in your latest post again. Are you really trying to condition yourself?????

What you've stated above makes absolutely no sense. As a smoker who's quit and started back up several times I will tell you that staying away from the triggers for smoking is a must in the beginning. I loved to smoke when I had a cup of coffee or a beer. Trying to quit while still endulging in those things was impossible. I only quit by getting rid of those triggers also. And guess what, after not smoking for 10 years guess what triggered me starting again. Yup beer and coffee. I actually quit drinking alchohol and coffee in order to stop smoking. 10 years passed and I decided to have a beer. I was smoking within 30 minutes.

You also said you understand "extraordinary measures" You may understand what they need to be, as you are addressing the required areas, but WHAT YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND IS THE ABSOLUTE NECESSITY FOR THEM.

JMHO
LS4
Originally Posted by athena99
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
OH. MY. FREAKING. GOD.

10 years Athena. 10 freaking years. If the jerkwad can't make the freaking decision in 10 years, what makes you think he ever would?


I should clarify something. When I said 10 years of EA, perhaps I was unclear in the definition of EA. We had a very close friendship and very intimate talks, but we didn't declare any feelings at that time. We had moments of sexual tension, but we each thought we were the only ones experiencing them.

About 4 years ago, the EA officially started. We said the words and acknowledged something between us. But we didn't go PA for quite a while.

It probably doesn't make a difference. The flirting and desire was there for most of the relationship - the full 10+ years.

Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Don't you have ANY value in yourself, woman?

Pull your damn head out of your cooter. You were a playtoy, and he got caught playing.

End. of. story.


I have to admit, I hear your words, but they are not resonating with me (yet). I can see how it looks, but that's not how it felt. It may take a while for me to see it that way.


Well.... Helooooooooooooooooooo, Sue.
Originally Posted by athena99
Moving is a very undesirable option as we chose this location and built our dream house. We are close to family and our kids are settled. I do understand the "extraordinary measures" and if they become necessary, then we'll POJA that too.

I hate to tell you this, but you're going to have to move if you hope to have any chance of recovering your M. Pretty much everything you've written on this thread is evidence that you will not ever leave the withdrawal stage of your A as long as you are working for the same company as OM, emailing him, leaving open the constant possibility of renewed contact, and living in the same small town that he lives in. I'm sorry, but that just won't ever work. It's not working. That is blatantly obvious to anyone's who's dealt with this sort of thing for any length of time.

Your H sounds a lot like mine. He's sort of passive. Sort of wishy-washy. He's just glad you're staying. He doesn't really want to talk about it. He doesn't want to set up any sort of boundaries (like insisting you leave a job that may involve contact with OM or moving) because he's afraid he'll make you angry and you'll leave. It's impossible to POJA with someone like this, because they'll pretty much go along with anything you say. Fear of you leaving seems to be their motivating factor in all of this.

It doesn't matter if you can get your H to agree to any of this. My H agreed to allow continuing contact with the OM long after the A ended for the sake of our OC. Heck, I could probably still be talking to him if I wanted to. But my M never would have entered the R stage. I never would have given myself the opportunity to fall back in love with my H. Truth be told, the way my H reacted to my A has made R and falling back in love very difficult for me. It's difficult to respect someone who doesn't stand up for their M or their family.

Does your H have a thread on this site? If not, send him here and tell him to start one. He needs a lot of help and guidance as well.

All I know is, you will keep triggering as long as you stay in your current house, in your current job, in your current town. More than likely, your A will resume at some point. Is your "dream" house really worth risking that?
Originally Posted by athena99
Maybe our SF was fine before

When?

Originally Posted by athena99
but I have gained more experience with OM and want different things.

What?

Seriously ... what experience is so unique with one man that a woman cannot enjoy the experience with another man? I know of none.

Originally Posted by athena99
Is it fair of me to request them of BH

Yes

What man wouldn't want to experience new and different things with his wife?

Originally Posted by athena99
or is that a terrible insult ("I want you to be more like OM")?

The comparison doesn't need to be made in your mind nor does it need to be stated.

If you have a desire in the SF department, why not speak it?

People cannot read minds. Your husband cannot read your mind.

Keeping silent isn't something a sexually liberated woman does.

Originally Posted by athena99
I was quite promiscuous and not terribly respectful of myself, but I chalked it up to being a young, sexually liberated woman. Problem is, I am now a married woman with children and I shouldn't be acting that way anymore. But I don't feel any older or more mature and still want my freedom to behave that way.

What way? Please elaborate.

I normally wouldn't ask such personal questions, but I believe it's very important here.

It seems that you view yourself as a completely unique sexual being that needs special, extraordinary care to be fulfilled. (I say this because I know the type.)

You need to understand that you're not all that unique, athena. You are not unique, your A was not unique, the OM was not unique, the sex you had was not unique, you sexual needs are quite likely not unique at all.

All that specialness and uniqueness are just more lies waywards make themselves believe to justify their rotten actions.

The sooner you come to this realization, the better off you'll be.
Quote
In a psychology course at University I remember learning that when a person is trying to give up an addiction like smoking, in the beginning the will power is very high. While it is high, you should not avoid the triggers that made you want to smoke - go to the old places, hang out with the old people - but use your strength to not smoke. This will help break the connection between the places/people and the smoking so that later on when your resolve is a lot less, you won't be triggered into slipping up. It is about conditioning yourself to remove the trigger.
Maybe that works for some people. I know it didn't for me smile If you had the 'strength' it wouldn't have happened in the first place, right?

At best, I would consider this faulty logic. Let's rephrase what this concept actually is:

Let's say your 'bad habit' is alcohol. You are powerless over it. You decide to stop drinking. You go to the bar (trigger) with your friends and watch them laughing and holding their drinks (trigger). You order a Coke and immediately feel deprived (trigger). You watch your friends order pretzels and another round (trigger). They're having a great time, betting buzzed (trigger) and making silly jokes while they're getting comfortably numb (trigger).

Yikes! All those triggers! And what are you? POWERLESS. You don't HAVE the strength. You are an addict. The odds are very, very good that you will eventually relapse if you remain in this environment.

Now let's do something else.
The gang is meeting up after work for a couple of cold ones. (trigger) They invite you. You decline - you're on your way to meet your H for dinner and a movie.

End of trigger.

You may never be able to go into a bar again. It may have to be a boundary you set for yourself. But look at what you did do - you replaced that bad habit/trigger with a new, good one. Because you agree that you are powerless over that old, bad habit.
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
But look at what you did do - you replaced that bad habit/trigger with a new, good one. Because you agree that you are powerless over that old, bad habit.

Well said, maritalbliss.

The same thing goes for negative thoughts, athena.

And pinning away in fantasyland about your OM is very negative and destructive.

You need to actively put an end to warm, fuzzy thoughts about your OM. You need to replace those destructive thoughts with positive thoughts.

Maybe you shouldn't replace thoughts about the OM with thoughts about your H at this point because you will make comparisons.

Instead, make yourself a list of positive thoughts (a vacation, your kids, a happy place ... various things) that you can literally pull out and read, and force yourself think of something else EVERY TIME you think about OM.

(Advice courtesy of Steve Harley who recommended that I do this every time I began to think about my H's A.)

You can control your thoughts, athena. Train yourself to think differently.

P.S. I thought it was hopeless, too. I was wrong.
Originally Posted by athena99
I can get rid of the "stuff", but I can't dump my hobbies (he was a big supporter of my artistic abilities) or some of our shared interests (the planet Mars).

Which is more important? Your hobbies or your marriage? People here have quit jobs, moved, given up hobbies - all in the cause of saving their marriages.

Find new hobbies you and your BH can do together. There's a recreational companionship worksheet on this site that you can both fill out. You might be surprised to find out what he's interested in, and it's great for sparking discussion.

As for the sex issue - you knowingly married a virgin when you were the one who was more sexually experienced. If you expect him to be able to satisfy you sexually, it is your responsibility to teach him how, or at least tell him what skills he needs to research on his own. Did you ever even give him a chance?

You can be wild, adventurous, and kinky....with your husband!
Originally Posted by writer1
Your H sounds a lot like mine. He's sort of passive. Sort of wishy-washy. He's just glad you're staying. He doesn't really want to talk about it. He doesn't want to set up any sort of boundaries (like insisting you leave a job that may involve contact with OM or moving) because he's afraid he'll make you angry and you'll leave. It's impossible to POJA with someone like this, because they'll pretty much go along with anything you say. Fear of you leaving seems to be their motivating factor in all of this.

It doesn't matter if you can get your H to agree to any of this. My H agreed to allow continuing contact with the OM long after the A ended for the sake of our OC. Heck, I could probably still be talking to him if I wanted to. But my M never would have entered the R stage. I never would have given myself the opportunity to fall back in love with my H. Truth be told, the way my H reacted to my A has made R and falling back in love very difficult for me. It's difficult to respect someone who doesn't stand up for their M or their family.

Does your H have a thread on this site? If not, send him here and tell him to start one. He needs a lot of help and guidance as well.


I guess he is wishy-washy. I wish he would stand up and fight, but I also know he doesn't want to rock the boat.

He does have his own thread ... hopefully this link works.

Helo's thread - This is just the beginning
Athena, when you were taking your psychology courses, do you remember reading anything about people who have a fear of intimacy?

I am not trying to make a diagnosis here, but it might be something for you to explore.

Affairs set up a false sense of intimacy. They are "safer" for those who fear intimacy, because any rejection can be viewed as a result of the situation rather than an affront to personal vulnerabilities.

It is actually in the most valued relationships that a person with a fear of intimacy has trouble being vulnerable and expressing needs.

Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Well.... Helooooooooooooooooooo, Sue.


Not sure I get that reference ...
Originally Posted by athena99
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Well.... Helooooooooooooooooooo, Sue.


Not sure I get that reference ...

It's from Dr Harley's book, 'Surviving an Affair'. Have you read it?
Originally Posted by Exodus1414
Athena, when you were taking your psychology courses, do you remember reading anything about people who have a fear of intimacy?

I am not trying to make a diagnosis here, but it might be something for you to explore.

Affairs set up a false sense of intimacy. They are "safer" for those who fear intimacy, because any rejection can be viewed as a result of the situation rather than an affront to personal vulnerabilities.

It is actually in the most valued relationships that a person with a fear of intimacy has trouble being vulnerable and expressing needs.


It was an introductory "101" course and honestly just the instructor's opinions and not part of the textbook. Having not been an addict, it did make a lot of sense to me logically.

I do see your point. Whenever I pushed away from OM and he asked about it, I justified it because we were doing something wrong - I always had an easy out.
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Well.... Helooooooooooooooooooo, Sue.

Originally Posted by athena99
Not sure I get that reference ...
Originally Posted by bitbucket
It's from Dr Harley's book, 'Surviving an Affair'. Have you read it?


That's what I thought. Yes, I did identify with her quite well. In fact, I mentioned her in my introductory post. But her situation was different - her OM cheated on her. And that is why she tried to make things work at home.

My OM didn't cheat on me - I believe he wanted to leave his marriage. But that never happened, so I guess either he never really wanted to leave OR he let me go because he knew I felt I needed to try and fix things. Right now, I believe the latter.
Originally Posted by athena99
I do see your point. Whenever I pushed away from OM and he asked about it, I justified it because we were doing something wrong - I always had an easy out.

My point was actually that your OM was the easy out.

If your husband rejects you, it is taken personally. If the OM rejects you (which he has) you can simply blame it on the situation.
Quote
My OM didn't cheat on me -

So, in all seriousness - his having a WIFE doesn't count as "cheating on you"?

As Mel said, one day you will read this thread and be unable to believe the stuff you're so blindly spouting today.

Quote
I believe he wanted to leave his marriage. But that never happened, so I guess either he never really wanted to leave OR he let me go because he knew I felt I needed to try and fix things.

Because a noble and honorable Affair Partner really really wants you to Do What's Right For Your Marriage. Please see my response just above.

Quote
Right now, I believe the latter.

Of course you do. Because if it's not true, then what have you really been doing for the last 10 years?
Originally Posted by athena99
Maybe our SF was fine before
Originally Posted by Delta_
When?
I know I wanted SF more than he did and he now realized that turning me down was a mistake. But before the EA started, I was ok with what we did. Pretty vanilla stuff.

Originally Posted by athena99
but I have gained more experience with OM and want different things.
Originally Posted by Delta_
What?

Seriously ... what experience is so unique with one man that a woman cannot enjoy the experience with another man? I know of none.

I guess it was just OM's confidence and experience. I was not used to it and it honestly blew me away. He met my needs in ways I didn't know I wanted them met and would not have been able to ask BH to do that before.

Originally Posted by athena99
Is it fair of me to request them of BH
Originally Posted by Delta_
Yes

What man wouldn't want to experience new and different things with his wife?
But he hasn't been open to it in the past and when I bring things up, won't he just assume it was because of OM?

Originally Posted by athena99
or is that a terrible insult ("I want you to be more like OM")?
Originally Posted by Delta_
The comparison doesn't need to be made in your mind nor does it need to be stated.

If you have a desire in the SF department, why not speak it?

People cannot read minds. Your husband cannot read your mind.

Keeping silent isn't something a sexually liberated woman does.

I am lazy. I was attracted to OM and he and I were able to express wants easily. It is harder with BH and so I don't even try. But if I speak up, then he will want to do it. And I am not sexually attracted to him, so I don't want him to.


Originally Posted by athena99
I was quite promiscuous and not terribly respectful of myself, but I chalked it up to being a young, sexually liberated woman. Problem is, I am now a married woman with children and I shouldn't be acting that way anymore. But I don't feel any older or more mature and still want my freedom to behave that way.
Originally Posted by Delta_
What way? Please elaborate.

I normally wouldn't ask such personal questions, but I believe it's very important here.


I was fairly protected growing up, but I also learned to masturbate (all on my own) at a very young age. I had plenty of opportunities to have sex in high school, but was always scared to go that far, so when I left home to go to university, I was still a virgin. But after my first experience, it was like the flood gates opened. I slept with pretty much anyone I got close enough to, whether I was with someone else or not. I was proud of myself. I was young and sexy and having fun. I had a foursome, a couple of threesomes, and lesbian ONS with a girl from the 3-some. I was doing whatever I wanted.

Then I met BH. He was different. I conquered him and prepared to move on, but he was nice and I didn't want to hurt him. So I stayed. I am sure I tried to warn him off by going into my desire for women and that I may be a lesbian. But he didn't run away. He was a safe guy and I thought that maybe he would save me from myself. I knew I was not acting responsibly and maybe this was a good choice. Right away I felt I'd settled.

Shortly after we started dating, I hooked up with an old friend who I had wanted so badly years ago (when I was 16 and he was 28). He was now a loser, but that didn't stop me. I told BH about it - but I honestly don't remember when or what his reaction was. I later went on an overnight ski trip and had every intention of cheating on him again with another old boyfriend, but the opportunity never came up, so I didn't.

We married and had kids and I seemed to put all of that behind me. OM and I were friends and flirting, but we didn't cross the line. But then we did.

I guess I never did change. I am a serial cheater.
Quote
My OM didn't cheat on me -
Originally Posted by Mulan
So, in all seriousness - his having a WIFE doesn't count as "cheating on you"?


I knew they stopped SF and were having serious problems in their marriage. She wanted to fix things and he was holding back. I was torn - I wanted him to be happy, but I also wanted him for myself. When he needed to give in to make her happy again (god it was so unfair to her) I knew he didn't want to but was only trying to make things livable at home, so I accepted it as part of our situation that we'd created.

I didn't see it as cheating because he wasn't doing it for himself. He didn't want to, but he did it out of guilt.

Yeah, I can see how f**ked up that looks. Yet I was so deep in it that it looked and felt normal.
Originally Posted by athena99
Quote
My OM didn't cheat on me -
Originally Posted by Mulan
So, in all seriousness - his having a WIFE doesn't count as "cheating on you"?


I knew they stopped SF and were having serious problems in their marriage. She wanted to fix things and he was holding back. I was torn - I wanted him to be happy, but I also wanted him for myself. When he needed to give in to make her happy again (god it was so unfair to her) I knew he didn't want to but was only trying to make things livable at home, so I accepted it as part of our situation that we'd created.

I didn't see it as cheating because he wasn't doing it for himself. He didn't want to, but he did it out of guilt.

Yeah, I can see how f**ked up that looks. Yet I was so deep in it that it looked and felt normal.

The most f'ed up part of it is that you believe his lies.

They weren't having sex ...
He was holding back from her ...
He needed to give in ...
He didn't want to make her happy again ...
He's with her out of guilt ...

Oh, athena. I'm sure his wife has a much, much different story.
Originally Posted by athena99
I know I wanted SF more than he did and he now realized that turning me down was a mistake. But before the EA started, I was ok with what we did. Pretty vanilla stuff.

....

Seriously ... what experience is so unique with one man that a woman cannot enjoy the experience with another man? I know of none.

....

I guess it was just OM's confidence and experience. I was not used to it and it honestly blew me away. He met my needs in ways I didn't know I wanted them met and would not have been able to ask BH to do that before.

....

But he hasn't been open to it in the past and when I bring things up, won't he just assume it was because of OM?

....

I am lazy. I was attracted to OM and he and I were able to express wants easily. It is harder with BH and so I don't even try. But if I speak up, then he will want to do it. And I am not sexually attracted to him, so I don't want him to.

....

I was fairly protected growing up, but I also learned to masturbate (all on my own) at a very young age. I had plenty of opportunities to have sex in high school, but was always scared to go that far, so when I left home to go to university, I was still a virgin. But after my first experience, it was like the flood gates opened. I slept with pretty much anyone I got close enough to, whether I was with someone else or not. I was proud of myself. I was young and sexy and having fun. I had a foursome, a couple of threesomes, and lesbian ONS with a girl from the 3-some. I was doing whatever I wanted.

Then I met BH. He was different. I conquered him and prepared to move on, but he was nice and I didn't want to hurt him. So I stayed. I am sure I tried to warn him off by going into my desire for women and that I may be a lesbian. But he didn't run away. He was a safe guy and I thought that maybe he would save me from myself. I knew I was not acting responsibly and maybe this was a good choice. Right away I felt I'd settled.

Shortly after we started dating, I hooked up with an old friend who I had wanted so badly years ago (when I was 16 and he was 28). He was now a loser, but that didn't stop me. I told BH about it - but I honestly don't remember when or what his reaction was. I later went on an overnight ski trip and had every intention of cheating on him again with another old boyfriend, but the opportunity never came up, so I didn't.

We married and had kids and I seemed to put all of that behind me. OM and I were friends and flirting, but we didn't cross the line. But then we did.

I guess I never did change. I am a serial cheater.

There is no such thing as vanilla stuff when even flirting outside of your marriage.

So you basically entered this marriage knowing BH is a nice guy, and you were prepared to cheat on him because he is a safety net.
Originally Posted by Delta_
Originally Posted by athena99
Quote
My OM didn't cheat on me -
Originally Posted by Mulan
So, in all seriousness - his having a WIFE doesn't count as "cheating on you"?


I knew they stopped SF and were having serious problems in their marriage. She wanted to fix things and he was holding back. I was torn - I wanted him to be happy, but I also wanted him for myself. When he needed to give in to make her happy again (god it was so unfair to her) I knew he didn't want to but was only trying to make things livable at home, so I accepted it as part of our situation that we'd created.

I didn't see it as cheating because he wasn't doing it for himself. He didn't want to, but he did it out of guilt.

Yeah, I can see how f**ked up that looks. Yet I was so deep in it that it looked and felt normal.

The most f'ed up part of it is that you believe his lies.

They weren't having sex ...
He was holding back from her ...
He needed to give in ...
He didn't want to make her happy again ...
He's with her out of guilt ...

Oh, athena. I'm sure his wife has a much, much different story.
Exactly...
While in false R with my XWH, we dated, had SF, spent almost every afternoon talking privately.

What was he telling POSOW? He sleeps on the couch; its not working, etc...

Waywards lie. Even to their AP.
Originally Posted by athena99
Quote
My OM didn't cheat on me -
Originally Posted by Mulan
So, in all seriousness - his having a WIFE doesn't count as "cheating on you"?


I knew they stopped SF and were having serious problems in their marriage. She wanted to fix things and he was holding back. I was torn - I wanted him to be happy, but I also wanted him for myself. When he needed to give in to make her happy again (god it was so unfair to her) I knew he didn't want to but was only trying to make things livable at home, so I accepted it as part of our situation that we'd created.

I didn't see it as cheating because he wasn't doing it for himself. He didn't want to, but he did it out of guilt.

Yeah, I can see how f**ked up that looks. Yet I was so deep in it that it looked and felt normal.
rotflmao

I'm sorry, but that is just too funny. Please tell me you don't still believe all of these lies. I could see how you would have had to believe them at the time in order to keep going on with the A and feeling "special" to him. But, please.

You do realize that this is what every single married man tells their AP right? It's so classically textbook that it isn't even funny. And for some reason, every single OW falls for it.
Originally Posted by bestfriend439
While in false R with my XWH, we dated, had SF, spent almost every afternoon talking privately.

What was he telling POSOW? He sleeps on the couch; its not working, etc...

Waywards lie. Even to their AP.

Thing is, I knew he was placating her and doing some stuff to make it look like he was interested in fixing things - he told me all about it. But I really do believe he was doing it out of guilt and not out of love/respect for her because he wasn't really trying that hard.

Maybe I am fooling myself in thinking he didn't lie to me. I have no proof that he did, so that's where I am.
Originally Posted by writer1
I'm sorry, but that is just too funny. Please tell me you don't still believe all of these lies. I could see how you would have had to believe them at the time in order to keep going on with the A and feeling "special" to him. But, please.

You do realize that this is what every single married man tells their AP right? It's so classically textbook that it isn't even funny. And for some reason, every single OW falls for it.


Sorry to disappoint. My world was/is very foggy I guess. I would honestly need real proof of him lying to change my feelings.
Originally Posted by athena99
[quote=writer1]I'm sorry, but that is just too funny. Please tell me you don't still believe all of these lies. I could see how you would have had to believe them at the time in order to keep going on with the A and feeling "special" to him. But, please.

You do realize that this is what every single married man tells their AP right? It's so classically textbook that it isn't even funny. And for some reason, every single OW falls for it.
Sorry to disappoint. My world was/is very foggy I guess. I would honestly need real proof of him lying to change my feelings.


He's a cheater. He was willing to sleep with you for two years and lie to his wife about it the entire time. He's obviously a very good liar. That isn't proof enough?
Originally Posted by SapphireReturns
STOP TALKING ABOUT OM!!!

Every time you talk about other man your feelings for him surfaces! Do you not see this???

That is why I told you in my last post NOT to think or talk about other man when you start thinking about him start thinking about your DH.

What is wrong with you?

You are literally self sabotaging your marriage every time you get on here and post something about OM.

If you want your marriage to work then...

STOP THINKING ABOUT OM!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You can not do that until you start gaining control of your though process otherwise...

What you think about you'll bring about.

Good luck.

P.S the only time you should talk about him is with your husband being open and honest! laugh but stop talking about OM on here! We do not give a rats @$$ about him, so stop it!


Just bringing Saphs quote up again. STOP TALKING ABOUT OM. Even if someone asks about him or tells you how he really is try relating it to how this effects you and your BH today. Not how it was with OM. STOP..STOP...STOP it already.
Originally Posted by writer1
Originally Posted by athena99
Originally Posted by writer1
I'm sorry, but that is just too funny. Please tell me you don't still believe all of these lies. I could see how you would have had to believe them at the time in order to keep going on with the A and feeling "special" to him. But, please.

You do realize that this is what every single married man tells their AP right? It's so classically textbook that it isn't even funny. And for some reason, every single OW falls for it.


Sorry to disappoint. My world was/is very foggy I guess. I would honestly need real proof of him lying to change my feelings.
He's a cheater. He was willing to sleep with you for two years and lie to his wife about it the entire time. He's obviously a very good liar. That isn't proof enough?


You would think so, right? But I don't believe he ever lied to me.
You're wallowing in the mire Athena. Take a step (see my sig block)
Originally Posted by athena99
Originally Posted by bestfriend439
While in false R with my XWH, we dated, had SF, spent almost every afternoon talking privately.

What was he telling POSOW? He sleeps on the couch; its not working, etc...

Waywards lie. Even to their AP.

Thing is, I knew he was placating her and doing some stuff to make it look like he was interested in fixing things - he told me all about it. But I really do believe he was doing it out of guilt and not out of love/respect for her because he wasn't really trying that hard.

Maybe I am fooling myself in thinking he didn't lie to me. I have no proof that he did, so that's where I am.

There is a great quote that applies here:

"What you do speaks so loudly, I cannot here what you say." His actions are where the truth was: He stayed married and stayed in an affair with you.
Everything else is a lie.

Waywards lie. It is the only way to keep more than one relationship going. You lied; he lied.

Originally Posted by Lookin4Serenity
Originally Posted by SapphireReturns
STOP TALKING ABOUT OM!!!

Every time you talk about other man your feelings for him surfaces! Do you not see this???

That is why I told you in my last post NOT to think or talk about other man when you start thinking about him start thinking about your DH.

What is wrong with you?

You are literally self sabotaging your marriage every time you get on here and post something about OM.

If you want your marriage to work then...

STOP THINKING ABOUT OM!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You can not do that until you start gaining control of your though process otherwise...

What you think about you'll bring about.

Good luck.

P.S the only time you should talk about him is with your husband being open and honest! laugh but stop talking about OM on here! We do not give a rats @$$ about him, so stop it!


Just bringing Saphs quote up again. STOP TALKING ABOUT OM. Even if someone asks about him or tells you how he really is try relating it to how this effects you and your BH today. Not how it was with OM. STOP..STOP...STOP it already.


Ok. I'll stop.
POSOM was lying and cheating on his BS. So of course he couldn't lie and cheat with you? Impossible! You were more special to him than any women in the world. That is why he divorced his wife and married you. puke

@athena99 -

So last night your BS deposited into your $LB. What did you do to deposit into his $LB?

IOW, what ENs did you meet of his?

Originally Posted by clark_kent
So last night your BS deposited into your $LB. What did you do to deposit into his $LB?

IOW, what ENs did you meet of his?


I crossed the line in the middle of the bed and put my arm around him because I knew it would mean a lot to him.
Originally Posted by athena99
I knew they stopped SF and were having serious problems in their marriage.

Ok so they weren't having SF.

Quote
When he needed to give in to make her happy again

Wait, WAIT! You just said they weren't having SF...but

But they WERE having SF.

However you two constructed a nice little lie to make his 'cheating' on you ok...

The lie:
Quote
I knew he didn't want to but was only trying to make things livable at home, so I accepted it as part of our situation that we'd created.

but the kernal of truth is there:

Quote
...only trying to make things livable at home...

Why would he bother trying to make things livable at home. If you were so wonderful, and things were truly so terrible at home, why did he stay? Why did he not ride off into the sunset with some he 'cared so much about'?

Because he cared about his wife too. SF with her was an intimate connection with her.

I promise you there was an emotional component as well. She was his WIFE, they share a history and a life together.

He 'cheated' on you.

He kept you around because he had the best thing possible: two women FALLING over themselves to meet ALL of his needs. He just made sure to throw them each a bone every so often to keep them around.

Why WOULDN'T he maintain this system? It's great for HIM.

You keep finding excuse after excuse for him - to prove that he really cares about you, that there was something special here.

He didn't.

And that brings me to your next lie - you keep repeating to yourself so you can not feel the pain of how TRULY you were USED.

Quote
I didn't see it as cheating because he wasn't doing it for himself. He didn't want to, but he did it out of guilt.

Doesn't matter WHY he did it. Human beings don't do something they don't want to do. He WANTED to have SF with her. Regardless of his reasons it was a choice he made. He 'cared' about you, but not enough to actually be FAITHFUL. All he cared about was himself - and so why would he reject sex with his WIFE?

He made the choice. He unzipped his pants, got into bed with her. Touched her, caressed her, made love to her, reached fulfillment with her. With his WIFE, the person he vowed to share his life with.

He cheated on you.

Think about that.

Let it sit.

This amazing man who was so wonderful, used and manipulated TWO women, emotionally toyed with them, so he could get his needs met and all the sex he wanted.

There was nothing in his acts that spoke of love for EITHER of you. In those moments, it was about HIM and what HE needs.

I was living with someone a while back - it was a rocky relationship. I went to study abroad for a summer and a male friend also was part of our group. Partying in a club one night I made a pass at him. He turned me down. We were friends and liked each other's company - but rather than get an easy lay, he cared enough about me and my relationship to say no - he got some from an unattached girl he was kinda into.

Your OM didn't care about you, or your relationship.

He said the right words to get what he wanted: his needs met.

Quote
Yeah, I can see how f**ked up that looks. Yet I was so deep in it that it looked and felt normal.


Quote
Affairs set up a false sense of intimacy. They are "safer" for those who fear intimacy, because any rejection can be viewed as a result of the situation rather than an affront to personal vulnerabilities.

It is actually in the most valued relationships that a person with a fear of intimacy has trouble being vulnerable and expressing needs.

You missed this the first time.

Read it.
Read it again.

What you are doing here is blaming the 'situation'. OM and you were truly 'intimate' it isn't his FAULT the R didn't work - it was the 'situation'. Bull -

Think about why it is you chose to have your most intimate relationship in this kind of situation - with an unavailable man....

This way, if it doesn't work out - it was circumstances beyond your control. It's not because you have a lousy picker, or because you have poor, weak boundaries... The affair is an easy out - keeps you from looking at what is broken inside of you, so that you can FIX it.

Affairs are fantasies built on lies... Ask yourself why it is that THAT is the place where you sought intimacy.

Every time you defend OM, you only make it clearer that you fear TRUE intimacy. Thats why you refuse to connect with your husband - thats why you wont give him the tools that will give him a chance.
Didn't you actually say the spoonong felt good to you too?

Baby steps. You'll wobble abit but take that next one. Chances are, just like any toddler when they first learn to walk, your foot will go foward or sideways but rarely backwards. And you rarely fall on your face. If you do fall it'll be on your butt, where you're in a position to get back up.
Athena, I think you are still in contact with the OM. While I could be wrong about that, you need to understand that I am not wrong about my next statement.

End ALL contact with the OM for the REST of your life. Without doing that, any attempt at finding happiness within your marriage is wasted time.
Originally Posted by Lookin4Serenity
Didn't you actually say the spoonong felt good to you too?

Baby steps. You'll wobble abit but take that next one. Chances are, just like any toddler when they first learn to walk, your foot will go foward or sideways but rarely backwards. And you rarely fall on your face. If you do fall it'll be on your butt, where you're in a position to get back up.


It did feel nice. I know talking to him makes me feel good, but we have both been avoiding it.
Originally Posted by Exodus1414
Athena, I think you are still in contact with the OM. While I could be wrong about that, you need to understand that I am not wrong about my next statement.

End ALL contact with the OM for the REST of your life. Without doing that, any attempt at finding happiness within your marriage is wasted time.


I can see how you would think that, but I want to be clear to everyone here that I am NOT in contact with him anymore - we don't talk or see each other. I think about him a lot and do still have a lot of triggers that remind me of him, but I have no idea what has been going on in his life for the last 6 weeks (aside from the change in his work). I don't even know if he and OMW are still together or not.

I also told BH that when he contacts OMW to return some of their things that he cannot tell me any details about their situation. No good can come from me knowing. I am curious, but I know I should not be given any information.

NC for life - whew - it is overwhelming to consider. But I do know it is the only way. And we may end up having to move and/or quit our jobs to accomplish it.
Athena:

My wife believed the exact same things during her A with the OM, as he told her many lies:


* It all came so naturally...
* He has a heart of gold....
* He loves me...
* He said he will protect me...
* He said his wife is a b*tch and they stopped having sex...
* Sex is so magical...
* We talked about a new life together...
* He would take care of me...
* He promised that they would leave the drama behind...
* His wife would understand...
* He is so successful...
* His wife planned on leaving him...
* He was planning on filing for divorce anyway...
* He would raise our children as his own...
* He would never hurt my wife...
* She is the woman he always dreamed of...
* Her husband (ME) doesn't deserve her...
* She deserves to be with him...
* Her husband has failed her...
* He can't tell his wife because of finances...
* The A can't be found out because it would ruin his reputation..

* If his wife finds out, she will crucify him and take the kids...

* His kids can never find out he was an adulterer...

* His wife gave up on the marriage years ago...


I hear your story and see the parallels in mine. In the end, the OMW found out and the OM had to make a choice between my wife and his. Do you know what choice he made? He told his wife that my wife initiated the A, was a psycho, and that he never loved my wife, was trying to stop her from contacting him, etc.

Finally my wife could see what happens when an A is brought to light. She came to her senses, and he attempted to lie to his wife about the A. But after she talked with myself and my wife and found out the truth, he is having his a** divorced!

Now back to your story: you will have many emotional breakdowns over the OM. But it is natural to go through this stage. My wife thought of him when she heard the radio station they used to listen to among many other things.

But she is back to investing in us, and it is working. It is possible that it could work for you, but you have to open your heart to your H.

Don't expect to magically feel all the fuzzy things for you H that you did for the OM. It takes time. Don't force it. And probably the best advice I ever heard: Don't follow your heart. LEAD YOUR HEART. If you follow every emotion you feel, you will be a leaf in the wind.

Sorry to tell you that every OM is a liar and a POS. You will one day come to this realization. He is a cancer in your life. Plain and simple.
Do you really feel you need to return some of their things. Why? Are they expensive items? If not I'd say toss them. If so, mail them. Why is BH physically dropping them off? This could be a huge trigger for OMW if they are in recovery. I don't see the point in doing this.
Originally Posted by athena99
Sorry to disappoint. My world was/is very foggy I guess. I would honestly need real proof of him lying to change my feelings.
Athena, he's still with his wife.
Originally Posted by Lookin4Serenity
Do you really feel you need to return some of their things. Why? Are they expensive items? If not I'd say toss them. If so, mail them. Why is BH physically dropping them off? This could be a huge trigger for OMW if they are in recovery. I don't see the point in doing this.
I would be tempted to toss them in the trash, personally. Regardless of value.

But if they MUST be returned, BH needs to mail them to OM's WIFE.
Originally Posted by Lookin4Serenity
Do you really feel you need to return some of their things. Why? Are they expensive items? If not I'd say toss them. If so, mail them. Why is BH physically dropping them off? This could be a huge trigger for OMW if they are in recovery. I don't see the point in doing this.

Mostly DVDs and DS games he leant my kids. I don't want to make things worse for OMW and I know it will also probably affect OM when these things return home. But it is not my call to dispose of something that isn't mine. It was BH's idea to return them because he doesn't want them around here anymore.
Originally Posted by athena99
[I knew they stopped SF and were having serious problems in their marriage. .

Well of course they had "serious problems in their marriage;" he was getting easy nookie at work. But I seriously doubt he stopped having sex at home. Did his wife tell you that?
Quote
It was BH's idea to return them because he doesn't want them around here anymore.
I would think that your local women's shelter or Goodwill would be grateful to have them.
Originally Posted by athena99
Mostly DVDs and DS games he leant my kids.

Goodwill or garbage. Goodwill probably requires too much thought. Trash them.
Originally Posted by athena99
Mostly DVDs and DS games he leant my kids. I don't want to make things worse for OMW and I know it will also probably affect OM when these things return home. But it is not my call to dispose of something that isn't mine. It was BH's idea to return them because he doesn't want them around here anymore.

The best thing your H can do is take them outside and burn them. Those items are poison and should never enter the OMW's home. Returning them will just be a trigger for everyone. Trust me when I say the OMW doesn't want that tainted trash in her home.
Originally Posted by athena99
Originally Posted by Lookin4Serenity
Do you really feel you need to return some of their things. Why? Are they expensive items? If not I'd say toss them. If so, mail them. Why is BH physically dropping them off? This could be a huge trigger for OMW if they are in recovery. I don't see the point in doing this.

Mostly DVDs and DS games he leant my kids. I don't want to make things worse for OMW and I know it will also probably affect OM when these things return home. But it is not my call to dispose of something that isn't mine. It was BH's idea to return them because he doesn't want them around here anymore.

puke

Remnants of filthy behavior.

Your BH is being self-sacrificing to return them, rather than defecate on them and burn them.

You had no problem disposing of your husbands love and trust, and while he may have given them to you freely, they were not yours to dispose of.

Though, maybe if your BH has a little Powwow with OMW dropping this stuff off, he will bring home some truth-nuggets.

When I tried to expose to OMGF, she called him out, and he ran to his big sister, because that's the kind of weasel he is. His excuse? "FWW is making it up to get a reaction out of him!"

WHAT? LMAO!!!

Worked doubly for me - broke the fog about how "good of a friend" POSOM was, not to mention his sister.

You were a piece of action, Athena, and he fed you whatever crap he had to to keep stringing you along. You did the same to him.

He told you exactly what you were worth; nothing compared to his wife. Once it was in the light, he ran back to her, and likely blamed it all on you.
ITA with Mel
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by athena99
Mostly DVDs and DS games he leant my kids. I don't want to make things worse for OMW and I know it will also probably affect OM when these things return home. But it is not my call to dispose of something that isn't mine. It was BH's idea to return them because he doesn't want them around here anymore.

The best thing your H can do is take them outside and burn them. Those items are poison and should never enter the OMW's home. Returning them will just be a trigger for everyone. Trust me when I say the OMW doesn't want that tainted trash in her home.

Beware; the items may scream as their demonic taint is exorcised.

You want to extend an olive branch Athena? You take it out and burn it all.

THAT would be an act of commitment.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by athena99
[I knew they stopped SF and were having serious problems in their marriage. .

Well of course they had "serious problems in their marriage;" he was getting easy nookie at work. But I seriously doubt he stopped having sex at home. Did his wife tell you that?


I know I said I'd stop talking about OM and I will, but I did want to respond to this one.

He knew he was being an *ss at home. He told me she was depressed and cried all of the time. She got them in counselling and he lied there too. I knew all of the lying he was doing everywhere else.

He probably realized I wasn't going to leave my H and he owed his wife and family to stay and make it work too. He and I talked a lot about if we could ever be happy leaving everyone broken in our wake - would we ever get over it. We were too scared to make a decision either way. Getting caught made the decision for us.
@athena99 -

IMHO, you are a Renter. You keep Score. "If I get my needs met, I will meet your needs."

Quote
I crossed the line in the middle of the bed and put my arm around him because I knew it would mean a lot to him.

But you only were able to do this after he met your need of Initmate Conversation.

What ENs of BS have you met that didn't require your ENs being met first?
Quote
He probably realized I wasn't going to leave my H and he owed his wife and family to stay and make it work too. He and I talked a lot about if we could ever be happy leaving everyone broken in our wake - would we ever get over it. We were too scared to make a decision either way. Getting caught made the decision for us.

And in the distance, I hear violin music playing softly. puke

Athena, SNAP OUT OF IT! twoxfourYou're not a stupid woman! He 'owed' it to his family??? No, DUH! He's MARRIED! doh2
This is how you can tell it was an affair: If he was so unhappy in his marriage, why didn't he end the marriage, reflect and heal and then begin dating?

What you are saying, in effect, is that he would only leave if you left. You decided not to leave your marriage, so he went back to his wife.

Affairs are back-ups and miserable ways to deal with one's own issues. Again, his actions are screaming that he was not miserable in his marriage, just a miserable person.
OK Athena, in the immortal words of Bugsy, after telling bugs bunny to shud up once, "SHAD UP SHADDIN UP RABBIT"
Originally Posted by athena99
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by athena99
[I knew they stopped SF and were having serious problems in their marriage. .

Well of course they had "serious problems in their marriage;" he was getting easy nookie at work. But I seriously doubt he stopped having sex at home. Did his wife tell you that?


I know I said I'd stop talking about OM and I will, but I did want to respond to this one.

He knew he was being an *ss at home. He told me she was depressed and cried all of the time. She got them in counselling and he lied there too. I knew all of the lying he was doing everywhere else.

He probably realized I wasn't going to leave my H and he owed his wife and family to stay and make it work too. He and I talked a lot about if we could ever be happy leaving everyone broken in our wake - would we ever get over it. We were too scared to make a decision either way. Getting caught made the decision for us.

Athena, he was not scared. The truth is that he would have never left his wife for you. All the fear in the world would not have stopped him if that is what he really wanted. He was making his marriage work because he had no intention of leaving his wife.

If he had wanted to leave his wife, he would have. The proof is in the pudding. I know you don't want to accept that, but the truth is in his actions.
Quote
Getting caught made the decision for us.

Cake Eaters

So you talked the talk. So once the light of day was on your affair it was off.

POSOM knew that you could never meet all his needs. I bet you a million dollars that one of his top ENs is Open and Honest. His BW could and you couldn't. You couldn't with your BS and you couldn't with him. POSOM knew this with a certainty. If you could meet his needs he would of left his BS for you in a heart beat.

Be honest, you as a Cake Eater, knew that POSOM could never meet all your needs.
Athena, will you make a post of 5 good traits your husband possesses?
You need to realize that having NC with you is the best decision right now for this POSOM I bet you a million dollars that their marriage.....

is in a REAL recovery
He's happier then he has ever been in his life
Loves his wife very much
Glad that the affair came out in the open.

So please stop talking about how he is regretting not being with you, because chances are he is GLAD that it happened.
Originally Posted by clark_kent
@athena99 -

IMHO, you are a Renter. You keep Score. "If I get my needs met, I will meet your needs."

Quote
I crossed the line in the middle of the bed and put my arm around him because I knew it would mean a lot to him.

But you only were able to do this after he met your need of Initmate Conversation.

What ENs of BS have you met that didn't require your ENs being met first?


I didn't think of it like that. Talking made me feel close to him. Close enough that I felt like I could reach out and touch him without feeling creepy. I actually enjoyed it too.

I thought I did a good thing. Without the talking, every time I'd summon up the courage to touch him, I immediately felt bad because I "didn't mean it". I wasn't waiting to "get mine" first and I wasn't withholding it out of some sense of keeping score. Having that talk certainly did a lot to make me feel something for him again. This morning I thanked him for talking and I asked if he noticed the affection I was showing last night. He seemed very appreciative. Is it wrong to ask him if he noticed? I don't want the recognition, but I want to know that it is getting through and making the deposits.

I will admit that I am not making much of an effort to meet his ENs right now. I felt so distant from him. But I think that with how well things went last night and that we are already making plans to do more talking tonight and planning a date night out to look at some books, I will be able to change that.

I know that feelings follow actions, but I found it hard to take that first step when the feelings aren't there at all. When he talks to me, I feel something and that gets me started. When we stop talking for weeks on end, I have to start all over again and it is frustrating because I question everything again. Maybe once we are over the hump and in a good place, I won't be starting from the bottom ever again.
Quote
I knew they stopped SF and were having serious problems in their marriage. She wanted to fix things and he was holding back. I was torn - I wanted him to be happy, but I also wanted him for myself. When he needed to give in to make her happy again (god it was so unfair to her) I knew he didn't want to but was only trying to make things livable at home, so I accepted it as part of our situation that we'd created.

I didn't see it as cheating because he wasn't doing it for himself. He didn't want to, but he did it out of guilt.

The saddest part of all is that you actually fell for this. Your OM must have been thrilled to find a side dish who would believe such a riduculous lie. NOW do you see why he kept you around for *10 years*??

Quote
Yeah, I can see how f**ked up that looks. Yet I was so deep in it that it looked and felt normal.

Please keep reminding yourself of this. He is no different from any other cheating man. He gave you whatever lie you wanted to hear so you'd feel good about cheating with him and would keep doing it. That's the coin he used to pay you.

_________________________
I'm thinking that your really aren't doing Undivided Attention.

Quote
When we stop talking for weeks on end, I have to start all over again and it is frustrating because I question everything again.

20+ UA time will fix this. How are you scheduling this? What does your UA consist of?

Originally Posted by Exodus1414
Athena, will you make a post of 5 good traits your husband possesses?


- He has NEVER in my experience said a disrespectful thing to me (there was one joke he made very early on in our dating and as soon as the words were out he knew he made a mistake, so I don't even count it).

- He has a WONDERFUL extended family that I am blessed to know and be a part of.

- He is INCREDIBLY intelligent and logical.

- He LOVES his children dearly (even though they try his patience much of the time).

- He didn't kick my *ss to the curb when I told him about my A. He was RESERVED and understanding.

- He has a GREAT sense of humor.

- He would NEVER LIE to me.

- He works HARD and takes pride in it.

- Everyone who knows him RESPECTS him.

- He has a heart of GOLD and cries at sappy movies.

More than 5, but he is a great guy ... better than I deserve.
Originally Posted by clark_kent
I'm thinking that your really aren't doing Undivided Attention.

Quote
When we stop talking for weeks on end, I have to start all over again and it is frustrating because I question everything again.

20+ UA time will fix this. How are you scheduling this? What does your UA consist of?


Our UA is just being around each other - shopping, doing crosswords, watching tv. I guess that isn't "undivided" attention, is it?
Quote
Our UA is just being around each other - shopping, doing crosswords, watching tv. I guess that isn't "undivided" attention, is it?
I suspect the two of you may be engaging in 'parallel play', KWIM? You're in the same room, but not engaged with each other.

Can you brainstorm with your BH for things to do that will put more of the focus on each other?

Here's some of what we do:

Rules:
1. The activity includes only the two of you. No other adults. No kids.
2. You are not allowed to discuss your children.
3. You both need to enjoy the activity or be willing to experience it enthusiastically.

Short list of suggestions:
Make cookies together - use a new recipe you've never tried.

Wash the car.

Play badminton. Golf. Bowling. Any sports activity that involves just the two of you. Congratulate H's good shots (throws, hits) commiserate on the bad ones. Show him that you are engaged and interested in his play.

Bubble bath together. Watch where you put your feet. grin Loofah each other. Fire up the candles and put them around the edges of the tub. (If it's a jacuzzi, move the candles before you turn on the jets. We found out the hard way that they can vibrate right into the water laugh )

Build a family website or blog. (Total transparency: this one is on our bucket list. We haven't done it yet.)

Make meals for the elderly/disabled and deliver it to them.

Board games. Talk smack during the game and don't mean it.

Brainstorm holiday gifts for under $10.

Make and jar spaghetti sauce for gifts.

Go through your old photos. Make a scrapbook of your marriage. Label the photos with names and dates before you get so old that you forget who the people in the photos are.


Not all of this will be you cups of tea, of course. You and your H have your own interests. The idea is to take those interests and fashion them into an adventure for the two of you. It takes some commitment and creativity, but it can be done.
Yeah, I just read the information about Undivided Attention and realized that we are NOT doing it properly.

Policy of Undivided Attention

Quote
The Policy of Undivided Attention: Give your spouse your undivided attention a minimum of fifteen hours each week, using the time to meet the emotional needs of affection, sexual fulfillment, intimate conversation, and recreational companionship.

We are going to talk tonight and maybe even go over our EN questionnaires so we can start planning things to do (and do better) during our UA.

Yay - I have a plan again. And it feels good. Thanks guys!!!!! Sorry I lose focus, stop doing what you've advised, and end up getting caught up in the fog. Can't promise it won't happen again, but I know where to come to get straightened out (with lots of 2x4s).
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
I suspect the two of you may be engaging in 'parallel play', KWIM? You're in the same room, but not engaged with each other.


That's exactly it. I think we've been doing that for many years (before the A), even with SF.

Thanks for the suggestions - they all sound like fun. And I have to admit, 24 hours ago I was seriously doubting I would look forward to doing anything with BH. I hate taking him on my crazy roller coaster of ups and downs (if I were creative, I'd give it a funny name smile ) but hopefully that will get better too.
Maritial Bliss

I love these ideas
Originally Posted by sunnydaze53
Maritial Bliss

I love these ideas
You may have them. kiss
Originally Posted by athena99
Originally Posted by Exodus1414
Athena, will you make a post of 5 good traits your husband possesses?


- He has NEVER in my experience said a disrespectful thing to me (there was one joke he made very early on in our dating and as soon as the words were out he knew he made a mistake, so I don't even count it).

- He has a WONDERFUL extended family that I am blessed to know and be a part of.

- He is INCREDIBLY intelligent and logical.

- He LOVES his children dearly (even though they try his patience much of the time).

- He didn't kick my *ss to the curb when I told him about my A. He was RESERVED and understanding.

- He has a GREAT sense of humor.

- He would NEVER LIE to me.

- He works HARD and takes pride in it.

- Everyone who knows him RESPECTS him.

- He has a heart of GOLD and cries at sappy movies.

More than 5, but he is a great guy ... better than I deserve.
Now print this off and tape it to your dashboard.
Originally Posted by clark_kent
I'm thinking that your really aren't doing Undivided Attention.

Quote
When we stop talking for weeks on end, I have to start all over again and it is frustrating because I question everything again.

20+ UA time will fix this. How are you scheduling this? What does your UA consist of?

clark is exactly right. He is pointing out how that small thing - conversation - helped your feelings for your H. Imagine if you did that for 20+ hours per week how quickly your feelings would evolve?

Athena, I know you might find it hard to believe, but those of us who have recovered marriages here, have passionate, romantic marriages today. In these recovered marriages, their feelings far exceed the feelings one felt in an affair.
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Now print this off and tape it to your dashboard.

Exactly.
athena99,

I am a betrayed spouse as well so I can understand your husband's view point, he has been hurt as well by all this and yet he puts himself aside for you and your children, that is a great guy............
I think you lost sight of the part in the marriage vow, for better or worse, I think you expected him to be perfect and when he wasn't instead of talking it out so he could meet your needs you went outside the marriage to get that fix. No body is a mind reader, he probably thought he was doing everything right, taking care of his family with pride and honesty I might add...........
Right now you seem to be holding a loyality to someone who doesn't deserve it, a man that lied to everyone including you, some day you will realize what that relationship was really about, him not you, not his poor wife, did you hear yourself she was distraught by his behavior.......trying to work on her marriage, and you sat back and justified and participated in that cruelty to another woman like it was okay, you should be ashamed of yourself..........
Athena this is your chance to right the wrongs from the inside out.......you need to work on you and the kind of woman, mother, wife you want to be, wouldn't you love it if everyone respected you for being a good role model a great wife.
Look at your list of things that are great about your husband again and thank your lucky stars he loves YOU, you have been given a gift by an angel here on earth.................don't blow it again....................
Someday soon you will look back and not even know who that woman that could have an affair is..................you will know you have grown and learned what it is to be the best Athena you can be, the woman you really want to be......
You are here looking to fix this so we all know that there is a great gal in there waiting to find her way.
Originally Posted by jessitaylor
Right now you seem to be holding a loyality to someone who doesn't deserve it, a man that lied to everyone including you, some day you will realize what that relationship was really about, him not you, not his poor wife, did you hear yourself she was distraught by his behavior.......trying to work on her marriage, and you sat back and justified and participated in that cruelty to another woman like it was okay, you should be ashamed of yourself..........


I am. Very. She is a wonderful person and I treated her so badly.

Originally Posted by jessitaylor
Athena this is your chance to right the wrongs from the inside out.......you need to work on you and the kind of woman, mother, wife you want to be, wouldn't you love it if everyone respected you for being a good role model a great wife.
Look at your list of things that are great about your husband again and thank your lucky stars he loves YOU, you have been given a gift by an angel here on earth.................don't blow it again....................

I will try my hardest not to.

Originally Posted by jessitaylor
Someday soon you will look back and not even know who that woman that could have an affair is..................you will know you have grown and learned what it is to be the best Athena you can be, the woman you really want to be......
You are here looking to fix this so we all know that there is a great gal in there waiting to find her way.

Thanks for those words. I do want to fix myself - I owe it to BH and my kids ... and to myself.
Athena,

I knew they stopped SF and were having serious problems in their marriage. .

Athena almost every guy who preys on Women uses this line, I feel embarrised for the guy who is saying it when I overhear it.

Someone here talked about a laminated card that guys carry around with cliche lines, you can be sure that one is on it.

I think my wife has heard it about 10 times from guys trying to pick her up.

God Bless
Gamma
Athena,

Right now you have a chance to redeem yourself. Think of this as a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to try and right all the wrongs you have committed. You can rise from the proverbial pigpen and become a woman your family and friends respect, admire, and love because of the integrity, self-respect and class you exhibit.

You will grow 10-fold by making responsible decisions! Show us all you can be that person.

Hello Athena and glad you're making the intelligent choice of ending with the POSOM.

How about this perspective to take the "shine" off the om once and for all?

My xwh was in an ema and one of the LIES he told the ow was that we didn't have sex.

Oh wrongo. We not only were frequent in that area, but we were trying to have another child and had just built our dream home.

You see, lies are said by the other people, the waywards, to lure in the potential affair partner. Do you seriously think that my xh's other woman would have jumped so quickly into bed w/him if he said to her the following:

"Hey cutie. I'm not available, just built a gorgeous home with my wife, have sex all the time, she's really attractive and we get along, and are even trying to have another baby, but would you like to be my illicit affair partner? We can sneak around all the time and I'll like to my wife about you and I'll lie to you too, but I promise, you'll want to believe my lies."

Do you think she would have stuck around? Heck no. In order to carry on such a thing as an affair, you have to LIE. It's the basis. The ground rule. What goes with the territory. There's nothing honorable or special about a relationship which is nothing more than a "liars with benefits" type of arrangement is there?

Call it what it is. It's not pretty. It breaks peoples' hearts, lives, and the lives' of the children involved too. It's a cowardly and selfish thing.

Let's face it, you're doing a fantastic job here, but I'd like to help you quicky wade through the final bits of fog and frenzy and help you see what the posom is..and that's a pos.

Fwiw, after my divorce I met HONESTLY and we were both single, a fabulous, loving man who wanted to honor me by having a good relationship with me, proper foundations. I am his wife today. Odds are, Helo, your bh, felt the same way about you, which is FAR DIFFERENT than what the posom did to you.

DH=honors Athena
POSOM=lied to Athena to bed her and make her degrade herself.

The choice is clear. You work on things and go thru the steps, do all the hard work, because the real man who loves you is doing that too.
In fact, I'll sum things up in one sentence and introduce a new anacronym here: EMA is really LWB= Liars With Benefits.

Athena,

I haven't finished trying to catch up on today's posts, but this one struck me with respect to what you already said. You said of your H
Quote
He has NEVER in my experience said a disrespectful thing to me (there was one joke he made very early on in our dating and as soon as the words were out he knew he made a mistake, so I don't even count it).

- He has a WONDERFUL extended family that I am blessed to know and be a part of.

- He is INCREDIBLY intelligent and logical.

- He LOVES his children dearly (even though they try his patience much of the time).

- He didn't kick my *ss to the curb when I told him about my A. He was RESERVED and understanding.

- He has a GREAT sense of humor.

- He would NEVER LIE to me.

- He works HARD and takes pride in it.

- Everyone who knows him RESPECTS him.

- He has a heart of GOLD and cries at sappy movies.

How many of these traits do you have? You lie, you wanted to have earlier affairs, you did have a 10 year affair, and you really don't feel bad about it other than you miss OM.

How many of these traits does OM have? Few if any. You know he is a liar and I find it interesting that you say he never cheated on you as a way of implying love, but the man who hasn't cheated on gets no credit, love or respect.

Your Om doesn't even love his children or he would NOT be having an affair and risking tearing their family apart. You did, OM did, and your H? I would bet one of the reasons your A$$ isn't on the curb right now is that he doesn't want to hurt his children.

YOu claim you have/had no boundaries before and even during your marriage, and yet you create this illusion that your OM does (he didn't cheat on me), when in fact you KNOW he did, if you call having sex with and remaining with your W cheating.

You may think all of these traits come easy for your H, but clearly they do not or you would have them, your OM would have them and you don't. It isn't easy to have the treats you attribute to your H, especially in face of what you have done.

Oddly, you don't respect him for who he is, what he brings to the marriage, and his willingness to make you happy.

This brings me to my last point for now. Men need feedback from their women, especially if the woman is more experienced and knows what she wants and needs. He did not fail you in the bedroom, you failed him.

I'll now read on.

JL
Athena, I had a marathon read to catch up on all of the posts(98 WOW). One thing that I wanted to point out to you, because I can't remember seeing it(although I may have missed it), was that all of this started because YOU EMAILED OM. THAT is why you were feeling this way. You turned your clock back. You did it because of WORK.

Does this co-worker know about the affair that you had? I suspect that he/she doesn't. You got a FIX because you figured that OM would see your email and think about you. That set you back to DAY 1. THAT is part of what happened here Athena.

Also, I am glad to see that you worked through the UA time.

t/j To ALL of the posters that helped Athena today, I THANK YOU. You guys ROCK. end t/j
Originally Posted by Scotland
Athena, I had a marathon read to catch up on all of the posts(98 WOW). One thing that I wanted to point out to you, because I can't remember seeing it(although I may have missed it), was that all of this started because YOU EMAILED OM. THAT is why you were feeling this way. You turned your clock back. You did it because of WORK.

Does this co-worker know about the affair that you had? I suspect that he/she doesn't. You got a FIX because you figured that OM would see your email and think about you. That set you back to DAY 1. THAT is part of what happened here Athena.


No, that co-worker does not know about the affair. It was a corporate person who neither OM nor I knew before. OM has been reassigned and working on something that a few people on my team needed to provide info for - not just me. I think it was probably out of his control and unexpected that I would be asked to send anything his way.

I think you are correct - even though I didn't think of it as contact - it was. I was not looking for a response and I told BH about it, but in the back of my head I knew I could still reach him. And that did set me back to day 1. I guess this is exactly the kind of situation that would warrant quitting.

Last night BH and I reconnected a lot and I am over the moon today smile I packed up all of the triggers from my office and will drop them off at Goodwill on my way home to my DH. Then I will pack the triggers up there and get them out of my house.

Originally Posted by Scotland
t/j To ALL of the posters that helped Athena today, I THANK YOU. You guys ROCK. end t/j


That goes DOUBLE for me (and Helo)!!! I needed some *ss-kicking and you didn't hold back. THANKS!
Originally Posted by Just Learning
You may think all of these traits come easy for your H, but clearly they do not or you would have them, your OM would have them and you don't. It isn't easy to have the treats you attribute to your H, especially in face of what you have done.

Oddly, you don't respect him for who he is, what he brings to the marriage, and his willingness to make you happy.

This brings me to my last point for now. Men need feedback from their women, especially if the woman is more experienced and knows what she wants and needs. He did not fail you in the bedroom, you failed him.


You are right.

He is a good man and that isn't easy to come by - I should be more thankful for what I have.

I didn't think I could be honest with DH about my wants and needs, but now I know I can be and it is exciting. I do see how he thrives on my feedback and appreciation.

WHAT THE [censored] WAS I THINKING ??? <-------- I think this needs to go on my dashboard too.
Originally Posted by athena99
I packed up all of the triggers from my office and will drop them off at Goodwill on my way home to my DH. Then I will pack the triggers up there and get them out of my house.

Offer BH the opportunity to help you. Let him SEE that you are destroying the remnants of this betrayal.

You've been holding on to all these mementos all this time, you can count day one when EVERY SCRAP OF FILTH is gone.

You might actually start seeing some real recovery once it is all gone.

You don't just owe it to your BH, you owe it to yourself to do this right.
Quote
WHAT THE [censored] WAS I THINKING ??? <-------- I think this needs to go on my dashboard too.
Here you go, Athena. smile
[Linked Image from gabijack.com]
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Offer BH the opportunity to help you. Let him SEE that you are destroying the remnants of this betrayal.

You've been holding on to all these mementos all this time, you can count day one when EVERY SCRAP OF FILTH is gone.

You might actually start seeing some real recovery once it is all gone.

You don't just owe it to your BH, you owe it to yourself to do this right.


Will it do him any good to see the items before I get rid of them? I don't want to cause him more hurt.
Quote
Will it do him any good to see the items before I get rid of them? I don't want to cause him more hurt.
That's up to him. I asked to see everything my H had. It was important to me.
I think asking him to participate is a good thing, he will feel important to you and he will view it as working together for the marriage which is the most important thing to both of you...........put things in a bag so he can't see, if he asks then show him and make sure he knows that you think the items belong in the garbage now along with the relationship.
Tell him you see the light now.............and how you realize the OM just used you.......and how stupid you were to almost lose the best thing that ever came into your life...............
Tell him you will spend the rest of your days making up for this heartless act.......
Tell him you thank god everyday for the second chance he is giving you......
Originally Posted by athena99
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Offer BH the opportunity to help you. Let him SEE that you are destroying the remnants of this betrayal.

You've been holding on to all these mementos all this time, you can count day one when EVERY SCRAP OF FILTH is gone.

You might actually start seeing some real recovery once it is all gone.

You don't just owe it to your BH, you owe it to yourself to do this right.


Will it do him any good to see the items before I get rid of them? I don't want to cause him more hurt.

You see MB's response - I'll add to that. Seeing what they are probably isn't as important as what they represent, and your willingness to destroy them, and allowing him to participate in that, will be a signal of commitment to recovery.
Quote
You see MB's response - I'll add to that. Seeing what they are probably isn't as important as what they represent, and your willingness to destroy them, and allowing him to participate in that, will be a signal of commitment to recovery.
I'll elaborate on mine, as well:
It was important for me to see all the items he had because I needed to visually process them as tawdry 'affair items' and not something romantically magical. I needed to give them less power than my mind wanted to.

So, I saw them. Yep. A "love" coupon book like you would buy in a cheap novelty store at the mall. My first thought was "HOW old was she???" laugh A couple of mash notes that made me embarrassed for her, the poor little tramp. Poor spelling, poor penmanship...she should have used Word and spell check, LOL. Things like that.

Once I saw them, I had power over them and 'owned' them.

Now, athena's H may have no need or desire to do that. That's up to him. It was therapeutic for me.
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Quote
You see MB's response - I'll add to that. Seeing what they are probably isn't as important as what they represent, and your willingness to destroy them, and allowing him to participate in that, will be a signal of commitment to recovery.
I'll elaborate on mine, as well:
It was important for me to see all the items he had because I needed to visually process them as tawdry 'affair items' and not something romantically magical. I needed to give them less power than my mind wanted to.

So, I saw them. Yep. A "love" coupon book like you would buy in a cheap novelty store at the mall. My first thought was "HOW old was she???" laugh A couple of mash notes that made me embarrassed for her, the poor little tramp. Poor spelling, poor penmanship...she should have used Word and spell check, LOL. Things like that.

Once I saw them, I had power over them and 'owned' them.

Now, athena's H may have no need or desire to do that. That's up to him. It was therapeutic for me.

Not to mention, it's a gesture of Openness and Honesty...
You are giving him a choice to end the A. He didn't have a choice in you starting the A. You would be showing him that choices in your life aren't just you choosing, but you both choosing.

To do this you have to be Open and Honest. You also come together to make decisions (POJA) that are best for you two as a married dynamic duo.
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
I'll elaborate on mine, as well:
It was important for me to see all the items he had because I needed to visually process them as tawdry 'affair items' and not something romantically magical. I needed to give them less power than my mind wanted to.

So, I saw them. Yep. A "love" coupon book like you would buy in a cheap novelty store at the mall. My first thought was "HOW old was she???" laugh A couple of mash notes that made me embarrassed for her, the poor little tramp. Poor spelling, poor penmanship...she should have used Word and spell check, LOL. Things like that.

Once I saw them, I had power over them and 'owned' them.

Now, athena's H may have no need or desire to do that. That's up to him. It was therapeutic for me.

So true. If he wants to see them, then let him see them and answer his questions about them.

You'll probably be surprised by how silly much of it seems when evaluated in the light of day.

ETA: If he does make fun of something.. as Bliss pointed out, it can be easy to do... then don't YOU defend the "romantic notion" behind it.
Kudos to all you posters on here!!! What great advice you have given Athena! I spent roughly 4 hours or so reading ALL of the posts on this thread. WOW

Athena, I have to give you credit. I can only imagine just how hard it is to be going through the withdrawal. I saw my WH go through it a few times during his EA before he moved out. It was NOT pretty. He was depressed, withdrawn, nasty, moody..... you name it. I do believe his EA is now a PA.... it's been going on for roughly 10 months as of now I believe.

From all the research I have done on this, you very much were like a drug addict. Drugs "fog" your brain. The drug of choice, your A and that POSOM, raised the dopamine and the norepinephrine in your brain and lowered your seratonin. The seratonin is what makes you make rational decisions. The A did the same thing that drugs such as coke and heroin do to a person.... they make you feel good. Well, when you feel good you wanna keep on doing it, right? WRONG! If it feels too good to be true, it usually is!!! And, an affair is NO different! Satan is great at ensuring these type of feelings.....

The thing that always threw me for a loop during my WH A (then and now) was that he said the kids were his #1 priority. Ok, honestly, you can tell yourself that in your fog but in reality the only one who is #1 is yourself. If the kids were your #1 priority, you wouldn't be in this mess. You wouldn't be ok with lying to your kids about where you have been, doing, etc. He lied to the POSOW (who was supposed to be a very close friend of mine) about things about me. She was always telling me things he said, and the majority of the things he was telling her was stretched truth. He was doing this I am sure to get her sympathy, to make me look like a horrible wife, AND to JUSTIFY what he was doing. You can justify and rationalize all you want.... but there is NO excuse for going outside of your marriage to have your needs met.

I was glad to read that you finally realized that your BH wasn't meeting your needs b/c you weren't telling him what needs you had! The same goes for my WH. I was constantly telling him what I needed/wanted, but he wasn't telling me any different. If you aren't being told what the other person's needs are or that you need something different, you assume that you are meeting that person's wants/needs just fine. I am sure you felt anger and resentment. I know that I made my needs known and when they weren't met, that's EXACTLY how I felt. And then, he left me..... and she left her BH..... The fact of the matter was that myself and her BH were the ones who weren't getting our needs met but we were trying to remain unselfish and work through it. I have read that the person who seeks an affair is usually the person least invested in the marriage. After reading your posts, I can totally see that. No offense to you, however, if you would have been invested in your marriage more, I am sure you would have tried harder to have needs met across the board.

Having said that, I hope that what I have said resonates inside somewhat. In order to be invested in your marriage now, you HAVE to meet his needs and participate in the marriage. That's the only way a successful marriage works. If there is only one person constantly giving and giving and the other just receives, it becomes a one way street. I would hate for you to continue down that path... you have come so far.

Give your H, your marriage, adn family the chance they ALL deserve. YOU CAN DO IT!!! You are off to a great start.... Keep it up and I am sure you WON'T regret it. You will soon look back and think, "wow... how on earth did I become that woman?" You own't be proud of the woman you were but you will be so happy to see the woman that you ARE BECOMING!!!!! Good luck to you and keep up the GREAT work!!!!!
Hi all. Thought I'd post an update since it's been a while.

BH and I just got back from a 2 week tropical holiday (took grandparents and the kids too). It started off nice. I figured being away from home was a great way to focus and put in the effort and "act" on my plan. I was affectionate and complimented him and was playful. He was nice and stepped out of his comfort zone a bit. We were having a lovely time.

Then, here I was in a beautiful and romantic place, looking out over the ocean, lying in my husbands arms in the water ... and I felt NOTHING. God did that hurt - I was sickened by it. And in that hurt, I thought of OM. I wanted to be happy and enjoy a place like that and the only person who I wanted to be with in that moment was OM. I had been able to go a whole week without thinking about him (my longest stretch yet), only to have him pop into my mind and set me right back.

BH noticed my mood change and asked me about it a couple of times. But we were around my folks or the kids and couldn't get into anything heavy, so I denied it. Plus, I didn't want to talk about it while on vacation. To be honest, I don't want to talk about it at all, even now.

I am sympathetic and empathetic to him. I feel like me walking away is the best way to stop hurting him because how many more times does a guy want to hear that you don't find him attractive or interesting anymore? I should be O&H with him, but it seems we only ever talk about kids, house, other stuff and when it is about us, it is me complaining about him. When it is only bad news, who wants to listen?

We suck at the UA - and I know that is a critical component of MB. I will admit that I am not doing my part to make it happen, but he is not trying either. And his lack of action is not attractive to me. I suppose I should tell him that.

I know I will get 2x4 for this, but with OM, that kind of conversation would have been easy to have. I would have just said what I wanted to and we would have had an open and honest talk about it. And I am missing that, terribly. BH and I never were good at talking - he will fully admit that too. I know that we can practice and just start going through the motions, but it would be more intimate than I want to be with him - he is like a stranger to me. Well, more than a stranger - he is like a friend or a brother. Someone I care about and don't want to see hurting, but not someone I want to be intimate with.

I read something on here before about overcoming an aversion - is that perhaps where I am at?

You have to persevere as it is early days when compared to the length of time of your affair. Your OM was in your face five days a week and on your mind seven days a week. The recovery processes is going to long and hard , every time you think of the OM and allow him airtime in your brain you are back to the beginning. There is no magic wand to wave to recover your love for your husband, it will seem like hard work however it is far less than the time and effort you spent on the affair.
If you and your husband decided to change the course of the marriage and separate you would be in the same position possibly even worse. You are pining for the OM, it is a fantasy you seek. Until you completely take the OM out of the equation no man no matter who they are will compare to the OM and therein lays your problem you are still comparing, read the words of your posts.
Originally Posted by athena99
redflag redflag redflag We suck at the UA - and I know that is a critical component of MB. I will admit that I am not doing my part to make it happen, but he is not trying either. And his lack of action is not attractive to me. I suppose I should tell him that. redflag redflag redflag

It's all right here, everything.

If you aren't doing this, NOTHING will work.

No feelings?

20+ hours per week!

That's a minimum of 3 hours per day on work days, and more on weekends.

If you are not committing to this, then you don't "want it to work," you just want to say that you want it to work so you seem like a "good person."


I am NOT in love with my FWW right now, Athena - not because of her adultery, not because I am not attracted to her, not because we are incompatible, not because of any of that crap everyone wants to float around believing... I am not in love with her because we got comfortable and failed to keep up our UA time.

THAT'S ALL IT TAKES!
Athena, maybe your husband has been trying and doing everything he can do. Maybe he can sense the things you are feeling and it is killing him inside to know that the woman he loves is thinking about the om and would rather be with him. To his credit he is still there trying to give you a chance but I guess ultimately it's up to you. I know I don't want to be with my wife if she doesn't love me, I have done hurtful things to my wife early in our marriage. I had a couple of affairs and one with her best friend that she just found out about after her affair that we are working thru.

Her affair went on for 6 to 9 months and she was in love with him and wanted to be with him. When we are intimate it feels awkward and why I have no idea, I mainly wonder if she is thinking about him and doing it only because she feels she has to or dreads it because I don't make her satisfied like he did and how if our SF was so good before why it feels like I can do nothing right now. The emotional damage has caused me trouble in bed, I am not sure if it's not feeling the love form her or because I feel like I am being compared to someone else.
Sorry I am hi jacking your thread, good luck and just know maybe he is feeling like he has lost you and is stuck in limbo trying to give you space and figure out what he is going to do. No one wants to give everything to someone and feel like it's going unrecognized or that their errors is going for nothing..eventually they can't take the rejection and the hurt and the pain and they give up but not because they don't love you but because they feel you don't love them.
Originally Posted by athena99
I am sympathetic and empathetic to him. I feel like me walking away is the best way to stop hurting him because how many more times does a guy want to hear that you don't find him attractive or interesting anymore? I should be O&H with him, but it seems we only ever talk about kids, house, other stuff and when it is about us, it is me complaining about him. When it is only bad news, who wants to listen?

The solution to falling out of love is to work to turn it around. The ideal situation would be to be in a passionate relationship with your husband. In order to achieve that you have to give your marriage the same attention you gave your affair.

Quote
We suck at the UA - and I know that is a critical component of MB. I will admit that I am not doing my part to make it happen, but he is not trying either. And his lack of action is not attractive to me. I suppose I should tell him that.
\
You should take action. Instead of complaining about his lack of action, you should take action yourself. YOU wrecked this marriage, so it will be up to you to lead it out of the ditch. You need to be rendering first aide to your victim. And what do you do? You sit on the sidelines and cry that your beating victim is bleeding. How silly is that, Athena? Render first aide and stop crying.

Quote
I know I will get 2x4 for this, but with OM, that kind of conversation would have been easy to have.

No shytt, Sherlock. And you would have those same kind of conversations in your marriage if you would stop neglecting it.

You are the homeowner who refuses to make any repairs on her home for YEARS and then complains it is a dump. The roof has holes, the doors are falling off, the walls are filthy. So what do you do? You complain that it is a dump. IT IS A DUMP BECAUSE YOU ARE A SLUM LORD!

On the other hand, you take immaculate care of your weekend condo and love going there. The walls are freshly painted, the roof is in good repair because you give have given extraordinary care to your condo. You took care of it every day for YEARS so, of course it is a wonderful, comfortable place to be.

You have made your home [marriage] a DUMP, Athena, and have instead given all your attention to the condo. [another woman's husband in an affair]

The solution to turning your marriage around is to stop neglecting it. STOP NEGLECTING YOUR MARRIAGE AND THEN COMPLAINING IT IS A DUMP! Stop being a freeloader in your marriage and a buyer in your affair.

Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accomodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carpet, replacing the roof, and even doing some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.
Originally Posted by lovemywifesc
Her affair went on for 6 to 9 months and she was in love with him and wanted to be with him. When we are intimate it feels awkward and why I have no idea, I mainly wonder if she is thinking about him and doing it only because she feels she has to or dreads it because I don't make her satisfied like he did and how if our SF was so good before why it feels like I can do nothing right now.

It feels awkward because you have grown apart. Any new habit feels awkward at first. The solution is to continue until you DON'T FEEL awkward anymore.

Originally Posted by DR Harley
Those first dates will prove to both of you how incompatible you have become over the past few years. Conversations will be contrived and awkward, and finding mutually enjoyable activities may prove to be almost impossible. But if you can stick to it for a few weeks, you will find yourselves warming up to each other, and you will make the re-connection that you need to rekindle your love for each other.
here
I've been away for quite a while - I think I was becoming obsessed with other people's drama and needed a break. However, I thought I'd pop back on and get some focus - I've been backsliding a lot lately. I went searching and found the following response that has helped a lot - thanks JustLearning ... your advice from waaaay back is still doing good.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...2075568&Searchpage=1&Main=151262

We are still struggling with getting the UA time in and as the above link draws attention to, I am not terribly interested in SF with BH right now. But as JL said, I think I need to show BH some compassion as I know this isn't easy on him either. But I feel that just talking to him about it hurts him even more. So I avoid it and we get no further ahead. Not surprised.

Also, a question ... I am struggling with making a request of BH. He has had facial hair for over 10 years and I never had a problem with it because we rarely kissed. Now that we are trying to regain our intimacy, I am very aware of how much it doesn't appeal to me. Is it fair of me to make a request that he shave? Or is that something better dealt with at a later date once we've tried to work past it? He would shave in a heartbeat if I asked, but I don't want to ask him if you all think it is a selfish thing to request. I feel like it is something that shouldn't matter once we have regained our intimacy, but I can't get past it right now.

Thanks guys and gals!
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accomodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carpet, replacing the roof, and even doing some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.


BTW MelodyLane - You nailed it! I am a freeloader in soooo many ways (marriage, work, home, kids, ...). Thanks for identifying this for me - I have been giving this a lot of thought the last few weeks. Sadly, I haven't been acting on it much and that is something I need to work on.
A request is not selfish.
A demand is.

"How would you feel about shaving the facial hair?"

Let the POJA start.
Quote
Is it fair of me to make a request that he shave?
Sure. "Honey, I'd love to see you clean-shaven. What do you think about that?"

NOT

"Earl, you wanna know why I won't touch you? It's that disgusting crap on your face! You look like a walking rug!Shave it or you're cut off permanently!"

You know what I mean wink
Originally Posted by athena99
We are still struggling with getting the UA time in and as the above link draws attention to, I am not terribly interested in SF with BH right now.

Hi athena. I saw that you've read strugglingaz's thread. Didn't you love what Mrs. Wondering shared, especially this part:

Quote
by August we took a road trip and listened to His Needs/Her Needs on CD together and that marked a big turning point in our recovery -- I began to feel a real connection with Mr. W again...[and why did I begin to "feel" that way? look at what I was doing...road trip alone with Mr. W - focused on our marriage and what we could do to make it the best it could be...]

Do you think you could plan some time with your H like this?
Actually, spring break is coming up and we've arranged for the kids to spend the week with Grandma and Grandpa. We'll have lots of time together without distraction (all day except during work) - we only have to plan how to use that time effectively.
Originally Posted by athena99
Actually, spring break is coming up and we've arranged for the kids to spend the week with Grandma and Grandpa. We'll have lots of time together without distraction (all day except during work) - we only have to plan how to use that time effectively.

That is a great opportunity!! hurray Can we help you do some creative planning?
p.s. I agree with the others that you should tell him about being clean shaven. You are doing him a FAVOR by telling him this and I applaud you for starting to think along these lines.

It is unspoken issues in marriage that cause superficiality and a lack of intimacy. Keep giving him feedback, Athena.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
That is a great opportunity!! hurray Can we help you do some creative planning?


Absolutely! I need help.
Ok. Aside from weekday evenings, how much time will you have alone? Any weekend days or nights?

Can you plan a night in a hotel combined with dinner and a fun activity?

Getting away from your house will help you avoid distractions.

Keep the fun activities up through the week. Set up dates in advance.

Ice skating (obviously a northerner talking - what climate are you in?), walk through the city, walk through a park, visit museum, attend sporting event.

What did you and H do together before you had kids?


Thank you athena for posting on my thread, as I went back and read your story from the beginning and seriously want to reach out to you. I feel so sorry for you and know the pain that you are going through and feel like if you can get through it, anyone can. Is it getting easier for you? Its so nice to have people out there who are in the same boat as we all give strength to each other, I believe.
A couple weeks ago, H and I stopped in a rural bar/grill for lunch and a beer and a game of pool. Haven't done that alone in a long time. Had a blast. We put money in the jukebox and sang along.
struggling - I felt the same reading your thread. Our stories are not unique and these lovely people here have seen it before - letting them help is a very good thing.

It is getting easier over all. Though I still think of OM a lot more than I should (wondering what he is up to, how his marriage is doing) I KNOW I made the right decision. I think I am still grieving over the loss of my friend. But it was a friendship that disrespected our marriages and had to end. I have terrible boundaries and need to work on that.

BH and I talked last night and agreed we are in a better place, though we still have the ups and downs. The downs frustrate me because I am disappointed in myself for letting them happen (I am lazy). But he pointed out that we are able to talk a lot better than before and he doesn't feel as anxious when we get into the hard stuff. A few months ago, he was on edge all of the time waiting for me to pack a bag and walk away.

To me, the plan is simple to lay out, but I am procrastinating on the action part. The UA part is CRITICAL. We have done a bit to rearrange our schedule, but with kids in sports, it is tough. At least we are down to 2 nights a week where the kids are at their activities until 7:30pm (it used to be 3). My antidepressants make me very tired and I often curl up with one of the kids to get them to sleep and BH wakes me at our bedtime. I am starting to exercise more in the hopes that will increase my energy levels - but finding that extra time in my day is tricky. I am not mentally strong right now and all of this takes will power and effort.

I had a rough time with post partum depression (untreated) and neglected myself a lot when the kids were very little. When I started to see that I could take time for myself, I went overboard and got very selfish (hence the A). I still need to shake those bad habits and start behaving like the person I want to be.
Originally Posted by Delta_
Ok. Aside from weekday evenings, how much time will you have alone? Any weekend days or nights?

Can you plan a night in a hotel combined with dinner and a fun activity?

Getting away from your house will help you avoid distractions.

Keep the fun activities up through the week. Set up dates in advance.

Ice skating (obviously a northerner talking - what climate are you in?), walk through the city, walk through a park, visit museum, attend sporting event.

What did you and H do together before you had kids?


We will have a whole 7 days (Fri PM - Fri PM), so one weekend included. I am excited about planning things to do. We rarely spend time alone away from the house. I want to make the best use of our time and not waste it. This week is our opportunity to really kick start things, get into some good habits, and make a lot of $LB deposits. Hopefully enough deposits so that we keep the momentum going once the kids return.

With the kids taken care of, we will actually be able to commute together again for that week. Something we haven't done in years. It will be nice to have a guaranteed 1.5 hours a day to talk. In fact, starting in September, the kids will all be old enough to attend before/after school care so we will be driving together every day - I can't wait! Right now we share morning/evening duties for dropoff/pickup and it separates us a lot.

I just sent him an email - we are going to start planning our week smile Thanks for the encouragement.
Hello folks. Thought it was time for an update as I am in desperate need of advice again.

To bring you up to date, we have been putting in some good effort lately. The kids are away for spring break with their grandparents and we have done some bonding. We went away for the weekend and had a wonderful time. Not that MB is not a valuable resource (it is THE main reason why I have come this far), but I also picked up a bunch of other books on the subject of infidelity to supplement our healing and efforts to work through what my affair has done. I found one in particular, called �NOT Just Friends�, to be amazing. While I disagree with the author completely about her wishy-washy approach to no contact, she was bang on in representing my experiences as a wayward and I related to it. The book was great in that I read it aloud during our drive to and from our weekend destination and it was the perfect way to talk about how the affair started, continued and what we went through during discovery. I was able to bring up details that were difficult to do �out of the blue� as the book brought up the topics for us to discuss.

When the mini-holiday was up, we came home and planned a week of activities to do together, some recreational and some much needed chores. It was looking to be a fun time.

Then last night, he dropped a bomb on me.

When my affair first started, I had confided in a relatively close friend that he was also close to. I trusted her and took her into my confidence. Over the course of the affair, she gave me much advice such as �leave� or �tell him before he finds out on his own�.

Well, he tells me last night that 2 years ago, over 1.5 years BEFORE I told him about the affair, this mutual friend revealed it to him.

I was shocked to say the least. He held onto this knowledge for over 1.5 years and didn�t do anything about it. He let me spend so much time with OM � at work, at social events, car pooling, � the list goes on. I had no idea he already knew.

On the one hand, I feel even worse because he was struggling with this knowledge and it was killing him. He was inexperienced and had no confidence in how to deal with it. He said living in limbo was better than living alone. He didn�t want to reveal his knowledge of my affair for fear it would drive me away. I get this.

But now, what I also get is (and I know it is not fair, but it is how I feel):
- he didn�t care enough about me to stop me from sleeping with someone else
- it wasn�t worth his time to even research what to do about the situation or seek help
- he just did nothing and waited for it to fix itself

I always felt like everything else was always more important to him than me. But I felt awful saying it because �gosh, it just couldn�t be true�. I feel like those feelings have now been justified.

How am I supposed to respect someone who doesn�t even respect themselves?

I�m proud to say that we didn�t argue or fight about this. But I know he is hurting a lot and I don�t know what to do.

I did say to him that I need this to change. I need him to stop �doing nothing� and start doing something. Actions speak louder than words and he hasn�t done anything (in my opinion/view) to engage in this marriage on his own.

I had an affair.
I sought answers.
I ended the affair.
I sought counseling.
Our counselor sent him to another counselor (he had 2 sessions and stopped).
I sought answers on MB.
I encouraged him to come to MB.
I read books.

He � waited.
He � did what I asked, but not more than that.

I don�t see him getting involved unless I push him. I feel so alone and don�t know how to deal with this. I don't feel important to him, yet he says he loves me. Actions ... not words.

I still can't believe he knew all that time and did nothing. I know he was hurting and probably in shock. I need help in dealing with this properly.

Please help!
Quote
But now, what I also get is (and I know it is not fair, but it is how I feel):
- he didn�t care enough about me to stop me from sleeping with someone else
- it wasn�t worth his time to even research what to do about the situation or seek help
- he just did nothing and waited for it to fix itself

I always felt like everything else was always more important to him than me. But I felt awful saying it because �gosh, it just couldn�t be true�. I feel like those feelings have now been justified.
Hey, Athena! I was just thinking about you this morning, wondering how things were going! Good to see you checking in!

If this helps any, for some reason we see this a lot with betrayed husbands. They have absolute knowledge and come here with it. We tell them what they can do to end the affair and get their wife back, and then they argue with us and find reasons not to do it! Crazy, huh? I can only assume that the idea of taking on an authoritative role in killing the A is an idea that paralyzes some men.

I'm glad you've spoken out this way. Because this is confirmation of what betrayed husbands need to hear: their wayward wife will not respect them if they act like a door mat. Their wayward wife will assume the marriage is not important to the betrayed husband.

We've had whole threads dedicated to this very thing.
Athena, I have posted on Helo's thread as well.
I think the news you heard about from your husband about not saying anything about knowing about your affair has come as a shock to you, as did him finding out about your affair,
He decided that he loved you so much that he was willing to put up with 1/2 a marriage so he didn't have to lose you........
He was scared and was devasted by your choices, I'm sure he didn't feel like he had any right any longer to request anything from you......
Athena I think you have to understand that affairs turn people into human we dont' even know anymore, you with the affair, him by just sitting back and letting the affair fizzle out.......neither was right, both were hurtful, both were unloving acts........but we all do what we can to protect our own feelings and sanity.......
Maybe he was so hurt that he couldn't even imagine you leaving him for another man, it simple was to much for him to even approach you..............
You were more important to him than anything else, he could have said when he found out, get out, you have betrayed me and our marriage, but he didn't he held on to you in his way...........he could have just walked away himself, you two could be seaparated or divorced by now.......
We all make mistakes that don't make sense and the other partner is just trying to figure out how to hang on to their lives........
Just forget about all the mistakes of the past and just be happy in today and the future you two can build........
sure it's not what a lot of us would have done, but we all do what we need to in a very difficult situation, remember we have never had to deal with this kind of pain..........we simply don't know what to do
Athena, if a young girl were raped, repeatedly, and she didn't tell anyone for 1.5 years, would you be mad at her?

You were not the betrayed spouse, and you may not know what it feels like to be the one on this side of the fence.

Let me tell you a little bit about my story. My WH and I have been together since I was 16. I always knew he had female friends, I had male friends. He had 2 different women at work, who I called "work wives." These were women whom he worked closely with and spent his lunches, breaks, etc with them. They were at different times, but one after the other. I don't know if he had affairs with these women, but he definitely could have. I KNEW about them. I didn't stop it.

On November 9, 2007 at 119pm, I received a phone call from my WH workplace. It was a woman and she was telling me that my WH was going to lunches and breaks with OW. That he was leaving work early to be with her. I didn't even know about OW. I immediately called my WH and he came home. He told me that OW and he were "just friends." That the caller was an old friend of OW's and she had made advances on WH and he turned her down. That was why he figured that she had called me. She wanted to hurt OW and get back at my WH. I believed him. It's not that my WH is a good liar, I am a good believer.

There were many arguments about the "friendship" between my WH and OW. I KNEW it was wrong and I wanted it to stop. There were 2 YEARS of attacks and blowups(I am ashamed to say that I was full of AOs, DJs and SDs back then). I didn't know what to do. I often felt like throwing myself down stairs or crashing my car into a wall, just to end the pain. I was devastated and I didn't have "proof" of an A. I didn't know what to do. I felt lost and I felt like I was drowning. Then I found MB. Through MB, I found the courage to install a keylogger on our computer. I saw chatlogs. I was upset, but I now KNEW. I was able to put a plan in place. I grabbed onto MB and haven't looked back. It was my saviour.

See, I feel guilty because I "wasted" 2 YEARS of my life not doing anything. And the things I did do, were actually making my marriage worse. I still sometimes feel badly about what I did and didn't do for those 2 years. But, I look back, when I am not sad, and I realize that I wasn't ready then.

I think if you give your BH some slack, you will realize that he just didn't know what to do.

He could have done so many things differently, and so could have you.

My dear, you were an adulteress. You need to clean up your side of the fence. Even if this marriage doesn't get saved(and I see GREAT potential here), you need to heal YOURSELF. You need to make amends for what YOU have done.
Originally Posted by athena99
He didn�t want to reveal his knowledge of my affair for fear it would drive me away. I get this.
Originally Posted by athena99
I don't feel important to him, yet he says he loves me. Actions ... not words.
Maybe this isn't the action you were looking for, but if he didn't love you he wouldn't have stayed for 1.5 years while you were actively engaged in an affair. Staying is action.

Quote
I always felt like everything else was always more important to him than me. But I felt awful saying it because �gosh, it just couldn�t be true�. I feel like those feelings have now been justified.
Do you think there is a chance your D,BH was saying "gosh it just couldn't be true" and hoping against hope you weren't having an affair for those 1.5 years?
Quote
I still can't believe he knew all that time and did nothing. I know he was hurting and probably in shock. I need help in dealing with this properly.
You bet he was in shock. Men (all people, I suppose) deal with agony in different ways. In some respects, maybe bringing up the A and confronting it would have caused a lot more blatant, tortuous pain then sweeping it under the rug and hoping it wasn't true, or that it was over, or that you two were really ok.

The vets are giving you some sound insight and advice. I know you are hurting, but try to understand where your BH is coming from--a hellish place of pain, betrayal and fear. Should he have stood up and slain the dragon of your affair with his mighty, righteous blade? Yup. Every BH should have. But almost none of us do...not right away. Some never do. It's tough to slay a dragon and save your wife when she just stuck her own blade in your back.

You want him to be the hero and fight for your marriage--you want to respect him--but you also have to understand that he is human, men are not like we are in the movies, and wives have a great deal of power to build up--or destroy--the confidence, the manhood, of their husbands.
Originally Posted by jessitaylor
Athena I think you have to understand that affairs turn people into human we dont' even know anymore, you with the affair, him by just sitting back and letting the affair fizzle out.......


Thing is, this was totally in character for him. Before the affair, I felt like many things were just too much effort or not worth his time. Showering with me ... nope, not enough room in there - OMG ... it's not just about getting clean!

Neither of us was properly equipped to deal with real marriage issues and behaviours, so when troubles emerged, we didn't handle them properly. That is what set the stage for it to get to this current stage.

But now, here we are and I feel like I have been trying to make changes, all the while he sits on the sidelines and lets it all just happen. Surely to god our relationship is worth getting involved it?

He wasn't just letting it fizzle out. He had no plan. What hurts the most is that he wasn't trying to resolve his own issues - no research, no counsellors, no confidants, ... He just waited.
Athena, you said this on 01/06/11.
Originally Posted by athena99
NC for life - whew - it is overwhelming to consider. But I do know it is the only way. And we may end up having to move and/or quit our jobs to accomplish it.

Last I heard (forgive me if I'm wrong) OM had been reassigned, but was still with your employer. I only read back about 15 pages so I might not know the full story... but...

Are you still in contact with OM at all? Does he still get brought up at work, do you have colleagues-of-colleagues talking about him?

These are all triggers that would keep you in the fog, and contribute to your struggles. And, while you seem to have a lot of positive progress from the last few months, you still seem kind of foggy to me.

You want to blame DH for not stopping your affair. You want to blame him for not caring enough to do X, or Y, or Z... I understand why you're hurt by thinking he doesn't care. But you were in the midst of an affair. It was your choice, your decision not to stop it. Not his. There was no way it could have been his decision. I promise you that every second that went by was torture for him. And you want to blame him for not "caring" enough to stop YOUR affair? faint
Originally Posted by Scotland
Athena, if a young girl were raped, repeatedly, and she didn't tell anyone for 1.5 years, would you be mad at her?


Extremely unfair and unrelated comparison to make. Helo is an adult. I understand his reluctance to confront me, but I don't understand how he could not seek out any guidance or help in that length of time.

Originally Posted by Scotland
I was devastated and I didn't have "proof" of an A. I didn't know what to do. I felt lost and I felt like I was drowning. Then I found MB. Through MB, I found the courage to install a keylogger on our computer. I saw chatlogs. I was upset, but I now KNEW. I was able to put a plan in place. I grabbed onto MB and haven't looked back. It was my saviour.


You didn't have proof. He did.
You sought out help. He didn't.
Once you knew, you made a plan. He didn't.

I know it is unfair to compare to people's reactions. I just find it insulting that he didn't care enough to do anything about it.

And before you all point out that I am no angel (believe me, it is not forgotten) ... it doesn't mean that anything he does is automatically a non-issue.

Originally Posted by Scotland
My dear, you were an adulteress. You need to clean up your side of the fence. Even if this marriage doesn't get saved(and I see GREAT potential here), you need to heal YOURSELF. You need to make amends for what YOU have done.


I am making a lot of changes and I am proud of what I have learned about myself. I now know how I let a friendship turn into an affair. I now know what I should have done to recognize and avoid it. But I need Helo to start standing up for this marriage too. He can't sit on the sidelines and do more waiting for it me to fix it. He has been on the sidelines since before the affair - I need to see that change.

I recognize that Helo's confidence and self-esteem are shot - and it is my fault. I am looking for how to work through this new revelation - UA and POJA are not the tools I need right now.

I think we both need to see a counsellor and that maybe he needs one for himself to deal with his self-esteem issues. I don't have the right tools to help him through this on my own.

I am still reeling from this and my thoughts and feelings should simmer down soon. I just can't shake the ones that reinforce my nagging suspicions that I wasn't important enough to step out of his comfort zone for.
Well Athena I can see that you aren't happy with his part in the recovery, then say that don't say well he didn't stand up for me when he could have, I don't see either of you two standing up for the marriage, the marriage is in the place it is because of the lack of feeling safe for either one of you, and this is what needs to be worked on, that doesn't just mean you, it means both of you........
I was in a marriage as well that wasn't the greatest before my husband's affair, that is 1/2 my fault and I think we both have agreed to that, but the affair is another story, that was a selfish decision on his part and wasn't in my best interest or the marriage...........that in my book makes one extra mistake he has made, some times right or wrong I think he should tow the line more than me.....
But then the adult in me says that gets me no where, I have to accept him and the changes he has and is making.........all we can do is inspire someone to change how they act towards us and resenting them because they aren't living their lives how we want them to is wrong and it does not help the marriage in fact in my case that might have been part of the problem in the first place......
Affairs and relationships are about ourselves, we have to conduct ourselves in a loving caring way at all times and just be grateful someone loves us back warts and all..........
Most affairs end by themselves in a 2 year period anyway according to Dr. Harley maybe that was your husband's plan.......no one knows what is happening in someone else's heart.......I would just do what you want to do to love your husband and if he responds he responds if he doesn't he doesn't at least you will be conducting yourself in an honest, loving way.
I'll bet he will slowly start to change, teach him how to love you, don't make him guess, slowly talk about what you need, make sure you thank him when it is good for you............
He waited with no plan and you are still married, he could have done something based on the hurt he must have been feeling and be gone.....
This isn't over, just needs to be worked on.
Originally Posted by StuckWaiting
You bet he was in shock. Men (all people, I suppose) deal with agony in different ways. In some respects, maybe bringing up the A and confronting it would have caused a lot more blatant, tortuous pain then sweeping it under the rug and hoping it wasn't true, or that it was over, or that you two were really ok.

The vets are giving you some sound insight and advice. I know you are hurting, but try to understand where your BH is coming from--a hellish place of pain, betrayal and fear. Should he have stood up and slain the dragon of your affair with his mighty, righteous blade? Yup. Every BH should have. But almost none of us do...not right away. Some never do. It's tough to slay a dragon and save your wife when she just stuck her own blade in your back.

You want him to be the hero and fight for your marriage--you want to respect him--but you also have to understand that he is human, men are not like we are in the movies, and wives have a great deal of power to build up--or destroy--the confidence, the manhood, of their husbands.


Thanks for these helpful words. I do realize how I play a HUGE factor in his confidence and manhood and that I failed him so profoundly.

I need to find a way to work through this and get a plan for changing this behaviour and I don't think I am being unfair. I need to start showing respect and admiration to build up his confidence, but I also need to see him make changes too. I am scared that I can't make those requests since I am just a WS.

I was having issues regaining some attraction to him already and I know this revelation has set that back in a huge way. This roller coaster is making me sick, but I am not the only one who keeps it moving.
Originally Posted by athena99
I was shocked to say the least. He held onto this knowledge for over 1.5 years and didn�t do anything about it. He let me spend so much time with OM � at work, at social events, car pooling, � the list goes on. I had no idea he already knew.

On the one hand, I feel even worse because he was struggling with this knowledge and it was killing him. He was inexperienced and had no confidence in how to deal with it. He said living in limbo was better than living alone. He didn�t want to reveal his knowledge of my affair for fear it would drive me away. I get this.

But now, what I also get is (and I know it is not fair, but it is how I feel):
- he didn�t care enough about me to stop me from sleeping with someone else
- it wasn�t worth his time to even research what to do about the situation or seek help
- he just did nothing and waited for it to fix itself

My first reaction is that he just doesn't give a ratsass about his marriage. That is evidenced by his do-nothing reaction. We have many men on this forum who act just the same way. They can't be bothered to get up off their dead [censored] and fight for their marriage and their children's family.

How does Helo explain his complacency?

And I am NOT excusing your bad [censored] at all. It is 100% your fault that you had an affair. But it is also very telling that he couldn't be bothered to fight for his marriage? SAY WHAT? crazy
Originally Posted by StuckWaiting
Athena, you said this on 01/06/11.
Originally Posted by athena99
NC for life - whew - it is overwhelming to consider. But I do know it is the only way. And we may end up having to move and/or quit our jobs to accomplish it.

Last I heard (forgive me if I'm wrong) OM had been reassigned, but was still with your employer. I only read back about 15 pages so I might not know the full story... but...

Are you still in contact with OM at all? Does he still get brought up at work, do you have colleagues-of-colleagues talking about him?

These are all triggers that would keep you in the fog, and contribute to your struggles. And, while you seem to have a lot of positive progress from the last few months, you still seem kind of foggy to me.

Nope, haven't seen him in 4 months - cold turkey. I am still feeling foggy - I told BH just a couple of weeks ago that I still missed OM (big step for me being honest with him like that). OM was my best friend and was meeting my needs so well. I haven't been getting those needs met by BH to that level, so I am still feeling like I am missing something.

Originally Posted by StuckWaiting
You want to blame DH for not stopping your affair. You want to blame him for not caring enough to do X, or Y, or Z... I understand why you're hurt by thinking he doesn't care. But you were in the midst of an affair. It was your choice, your decision not to stop it. Not his. There was no way it could have been his decision. I promise you that every second that went by was torture for him. And you want to blame him for not "caring" enough to stop YOUR affair? faint

I don't think I expected him to stop it, but I did expect that he would do SOMETHING to try and deal with it - maybe not directly with me, but for himself. Look up stuff on the internet on how to deal with a cheating spouse, find a counsellor to discuss what to do, ANYTHING!

I guess I am attracted to men of action and realizing that BH doesn't show this trait, set me back a great deal on my goal to become attracted to him again.

I don't want that quality in a husband. I need this to change. Just as I want to change so that I don't have the qualities he finds unappealing. I have made changes - I need to see the same from him.
Originally Posted by athena99
[Thanks for these helpful words. I do realize how I play a HUGE factor in his confidence and manhood and that I failed him so profoundly.

I think he failed him in a much more profound way. You don't even come close.
Originally Posted by athena99
[I don't want that quality in a husband. I need this to change. Just as I want to change so that I don't have the qualities he finds unappealing. I have made changes - I need to see the same from him.

Wimps don't appeal to anyone. I agree this is a terrible shortcoming on his part. It has not served him well.
Originally Posted by jessitaylor
This isn't over, just needs to be worked on.


And that is the direction I am looking for ... what next?
Athena99,
I am no expert on this because I have had a marriage for 25 years and my husband sought out someone else to fill his needs, I wasn't great at doing that myself for the last couple of years before the affair, a lot of reasons I won't go into.....
But that act has left me feeling worth a little less than I used to, it has left me feeling I don't have promise anymore from my husband, the one I made to him in front of God and everyone else is gone and seems so unimportant now.........
It also makes me feel that someone else was more important than I was in my husband's eyes and now someone else holds a spot in my husband's heart.......all of this can't be changed it is part of my life because I chose to work on recovery of my marriage and my life................but it has changed me and how I feel about myself, I tell you this because I think that is just part of a BS. We know we weren't perfect and the WS has proven that someone else may have been better for a time at least, whether that was real or not it seems to us that it was..... hard to disgest and understand but we try........we try to push all our feelings under the rug to make sure the WS is forgiven.
Then we change everything about us so we don't put the WS in that position again.............a lot of work just getting our minds wrapped around all that.
All we want is peace and not have to think about our lives every minute and worry every minute that it could happen again.........
Calmness and peace is all I want now........
I just want my husband to be affectionate, thoughtful, understanding and just be involved in every part of my life..........I need to know I am all he thinks about and why all his decisions are made........
I want to hear he is sorry, I want to hear that he loves me, I want to have him want to plan things together and our life and future......
This is what he does for me and my response has been positive and loving, I think he sees now if he had only thought this way before we wouldn't be here today...............
He would be a hard man to walk away from now, you need to show your husband outside of what he is doing what you can do for him and how you can show him that your life is HIM. He will respond like I do............in a loving unbelieveably grateful woman.......he could easily have gone with the OW, someone he claimed he was in love with.........but somehow he made his way back to me in a different way than he was before the affair. He has totally changed, you can to..............it starts with you, one person can start this, slowly he will see the woman, the only woman that makes any difference to him.......
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Wimps don't appeal to anyone. I agree this is a terrible shortcoming on his part. It has not served him well.

So I wonder what his motivation was? There is some O&H that is missing here. He HAS to have a reason for his inaction...no matter what it is, it couldn't be any worse than what you're THINKING it is, and finding out would help you both down the path. If it's simply "I was too weak/inadequate/paralyzed with fear/etc. etc. etc." at least you'd know what he was thinking, how it happened this way...and admitting one's shortcomings and working on them, I think, is a good step towards looking more attractive to women...

Right now, you're thinking "he didn't/doesn't care about me at all" and he's thinking "Oh my God I'm going to lose my wife again." There's a disconnect there.
The term "Learned Helplessness" comes to mind.
Originally Posted by StuckWaiting
He HAS to have a reason for his inaction...no matter what it is, it couldn't be any worse than what you're THINKING it is, and finding out would help you both down the path. If it's simply "I was too weak/inadequate/paralyzed with fear/etc. etc. etc." at least you'd know what he was thinking, how it happened this way...


He acknowledged he felt "weak/inadequate/paralyzed with fear/etc. etc. etc." Which I understand, but only with respect to confronting me about it. What I don't understand is not seeking guidance or help in any other way and simply watching me continue on, waiting for me to "come around".

I get that he was terrified to force the issue and risk losing me. But sitting on the sidelines and pining away is a passive and unattractive quality that I don't know how to accept. I need to see it change. I don't want to be the only one affecting change in the marriage - I need a partner, not a bystander.

Originally Posted by StuckWaiting
and admitting one's shortcomings and working on them, I think, is a good step towards looking more attractive to women...

Yes, working on them is key. I don't need to hear self-deprecation as it is unattractive. I told him to set his sights on who he wants to be and start doing it. Which is also what I am doing for me.

Originally Posted by StuckWaiting
Right now, you're thinking "he didn't/doesn't care about me at all" and he's thinking "Oh my God I'm going to lose my wife again." There's a disconnect there.


Yes and yes. Not a disconnect, but just 2 valid ways to look at the same situation.
Originally Posted by athena99
[

He acknowledged he felt "weak/inadequate/paralyzed with fear/etc. etc. etc." Which I understand, but only with respect to confronting me about it. What I don't understand is not seeking guidance or help in any other way and simply watching me continue on, waiting for me to "come around".

Hopefully, he has made a decision to not be a wuss anymore and to leave the conflict avoider approach behind. That is most certainly NOT attractive and will harm your marriage in the future. It is dishonesty like this that causes a lack of intimacy.
Originally Posted by athena99
[He acknowledged he felt "weak/inadequate/paralyzed with fear/etc. etc. etc."

By the way, this is how everyone feels when faced with a crisis. It is not an excuse to avoid doing the right thing.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Hopefully, he has made a decision to not be a wuss anymore and to leave the conflict avoider approach behind. That is most certainly NOT attractive and will harm your marriage in the future. It is dishonesty like this that causes a lack of intimacy.

I couldn't agree more.

As a BH, however, I'm imagining back to when my extremely foggy wife was saying things like "I'm just not attracted to you anymore" and "I don't know if I ever was attracted to you" and "you're just not on my level anymore."

It didn't exactly imbue me with a desire to become a stronger, attractive man. A strong man would rise up against those words and prove them wrong, but a shattered man becomes even more demoralized.

I found the strength to change, but my WW had to change her thinking too. I resolved not to be a wuss...but she also resolved to remember that OM was a selfish man wrecking his own family, as well as hers. And she also resolved to find the things that she DID still find attractive about me and focus on those, as a way to help boost my wounded confidence a tad bit.

Athena, while being a wuss is horribly unattractive, surely there are other qualities about your H you still find attractive? Feelings follow actions, right?
The man has never had a marriage, never had a wife that respected him - only the illusion of it.

You wonder why he kind of sat there like a lump?

Athena, all you have handed him for 10 years is loss, and you think that he's going to magically turn around and be Superman?

Quote
Learned helplessness can also be a motivational problem. Individuals who have failed at tasks in the past conclude erroneously that they are incapable of improving their performance. This might set children behind in academic subjects and dampen their social skills.

Children with learned helplessness typically fail academic subjects, and are less intrinsically motivated than others. They may use learned helplessness as an excuse or a shield to provide self-justification for school failure. Additionally, describing someone as having learned to be helpless can serve as a reason to avoid blaming him or her for the inconveniences experienced. In turn, the student will give up trying to gain respect or advancement through academic performance.

It's also prevalent in depression and abuse.

The key?

Lots and lots of admiration for the efforts he makes, honest admiration.

Meeting emotional needs is the key to breaking this cycle of learned helplessness.
athena, I want to respectfully disagree with those posters who are leveling some pretty heavy 2x4s at you.

Sure, you're responsible for your affair. I did not see anywhere where you tried to lay the blame for your affair on your BH.

Sure, your BH was experiencing a very real trauma upon discovering his WW's A. Again, you do not discount that, nor dismiss it.

I think you have a legitimate need for your BH to be a partner in this M - as do many, if not all, of us here.

I think, as well, that your feelings upon your BH revealing this information to you (kudos to him for telling you, even if it is now rather than then) are absolutely normal. I think the negative ones may be exacerbated by any fond thoughts of OM (read up on absolute NC for life, maybe), but they are legitimate nonetheless.

You seem to be approaching this the right way, though I will echo what many are saying in cautioning you to keep the perspective that you have, that you are the WS who brought much of this on the M in the first place.

Do you two counsel w/ the Harleys? Could you call in to the radio show and ask for Dr. Harley's take on this? I'm sure he will echo what many here have said re: your BH's trauma/shock response, but the good doctor seems to have a great way of phrasing things and coming up with a plan where needed.
Originally Posted by Mrs_Vanilla
athena, I want to respectfully disagree with those posters who are leveling some pretty heavy 2x4s at you.

Sure, you're responsible for your affair. I did not see anywhere where you tried to lay the blame for your affair on your BH.

Actually - subtly she is laying blame for the LENGTH of the affair at his feet. she's angry because he didn't fight for her/for the marriage.

Actually - I watched my mother do the same thing to my dad. Systematically demasculinized him for years; she has a quick wit - dad was physically abusive and she found her own way to get back at him. Socially. She was popular and well accepted. Dad was shy and reserved in public. I saw the process behind closed doors. And when my dad continued nurturing his relationship with alcohol to sooth his wounds, she found comfort with another man.

Athena - I don't say this to be cruel... There is more going on between you and your husband than an affair. You have to ask yourself - how have you contributed to your husband's loss of manhood. Because strong women have a habit of ignoring the damage our strength can do. I'm not saying you have to become weak. But in order for your marriage to thrive, you both have to become strong and supportive of each other's strengths.

Find a way through this. I'd recommend the book "Wild At Heart" - it's written for men, but women who want a strong man need to read it.
Originally Posted by StuckWaiting
Athena, while being a wuss is horribly unattractive, surely there are other qualities about your H you still find attractive? Feelings follow actions, right?


I have been acting while waiting for the feelings to kick in. Of course, then BH thinks I am just faking it. I am damned if I do and damned if I don't. He can't handle the truth so I avoid telling him. I am not attracted to him physically and he doesn't want to hear it. I keep "faking" it hoping it will eventually kick in.

I have made a lot of improvements - I can cuddle on the couch, hold his hand, or snuggle in bed without feeling uncomfortable. But anything beyond that takes a lot of effort for me. My body can enjoy sex, but my heart and my emotional attachment are not there. And I miss that part the most.
Originally Posted by KaylaAndy
Actually - subtly she is laying blame for the LENGTH of the affair at his feet. she's angry because he didn't fight for her/for the marriage.


Sorry, nope. I wouldn't have expected him to confront me. That is not in his nature. What bothers and disappoints me most is that he didn't do anything at all - no googling resources to help, no counselling, no confiding in anyone. Just sat back and waited. My interpretation is that it wasn't worth the effort to bother.

Originally Posted by KaylaAndy
Athena - I don't say this to be cruel... There is more going on between you and your husband than an affair. You have to ask yourself - how have you contributed to your husband's loss of manhood. Because strong women have a habit of ignoring the damage our strength can do. I'm not saying you have to become weak. But in order for your marriage to thrive, you both have to become strong and supportive of each other's strengths.

Find a way through this. I'd recommend the book "Wild At Heart" - it's written for men, but women who want a strong man need to read it.


I do agree with you - I have not done anything to help deal with the low self-esteem he has had all of his life. I knew he had confidence issues when I married him and I guess I didn't realize what I was committing to at the time. I made the promise and I will try to honor it as best I can.

Thanks for the book referral - I will look into it.
I am struggling with my lack of committment. As KaylaAndy's signature block says:

Quote
If you're interested in saving your relationship, you'll work on it when it's convenient. If you're committed, you'll accept no excuses.

I don't want him bad enough. I am fine with being friendly, but I don't WANT him. I don't need carnal, animal lust. I'm not looking for that "newness" or "danger". I want what I felt I had with OM. Something comfortable and safe with I man I am attracted to and am emotionally attached to.

I am not there with BH and am getting scared that "feelings follow action" isn't going to happen. BH seemed annoyed that I was still doing "feelings follow action", which he considers "faking" it. I told him that not faking it implies that everything is going very well and we are healed - something that doesn't happen in 4 months.

However, we've been spending our time together and I'm making myself be intimate with him, but I don't feel any closer. We spent the weekend together and I was trying to tell myself and him that I was happy, but I wasn't. We had fun and it was nice to spend time together, but I felt pressure and was uncomfortable with sex. I don't enjoy it with him and that makes me very sad. I don't think I care about him enough to overlook all the things that make the experience unpleasant for me.

How do I get off of this fence and commit when I don't see him meeting an important need of mine effectively ... ever?

<edited to add this part>
I also don't know if I can meet his needs for anything sexual and that isn't fair to him.
Originally Posted by athena99
How do I get off of this fence and commit when I don't see him meeting an important need of mine effectively ... ever?

Do you think that it is possible to learn to meet that need?
Originally Posted by athena99
I don't want him bad enough. I am fine with being friendly, but I don't WANT him. I don't need carnal, animal lust. I'm not looking for that "newness" or "danger". I want what I felt I had with OM. Something comfortable and safe with I man I am attracted to and am emotionally attached to.

You didn't have anything "safe" with that woman's husband. He dumped you for his wife, remember? Nothing safe about affairs.

You need to KEEP UP the UA time and stop cutting corners. And I know you are cutting corners, so don't try and tell me you aren't. You are doing the program in a half assed way and then complaining it doesn't work. It takes 20+ hours of undivided attention time meeting the top 4 intimate needs. Consistently. EVERY WEEK. Not just sometimes. Not 5 hours this week and then 6 the next, etc, etc, etc. 20+ hours per week of UA CONSISTENTLY is what it takes to fall in love.

If you guys can't follow this program strictly, then why not sign up for the online program so you have a personal coach who will keep you on track and motivated?


Quote
I am not there with BH and am getting scared that "feelings follow action" isn't going to happen. BH seemed annoyed that I was still doing "feelings follow action", which he considers "faking" it. I told him that not faking it implies that everything is going very well and we are healed - something that doesn't happen in 4 months.

Tell him that developing new habits feels awkward and "faked" at first. That is part of creating new habits.

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
You need to KEEP UP the UA time and stop cutting corners. And I know you are cutting corners, so don't try and tell me you aren't. You are doing the program in a half assed way and then complaining it doesn't work. It takes 20+ hours of undivided attention time meeting the top 4 intimate needs. Consistently. EVERY WEEK. Not just sometimes. Not 5 hours this week and then 6 the next, etc, etc, etc. 20+ hours per week of UA CONSISTENTLY is what it takes to fall in love.


You are right, we aren't getting the 20+ hours in. Neither of us is committed to this. I am not attracted and he has shown that he is waiting for me to fix it.

It may just be excuses but:
- the kids are in activities and get to sleep between 8:30 and 9 on a consistent basis
- my antidepressants wipe me right out and I am usually not far behind them (in consultation with my dr, I am weaning myself off of them in the hopes of regaining some energy)
- I need to get up at 5am to get through the morning routine and to work on time so I can leave early enough to be home to meet the kids when they get off the bus (we don't have after school care)
- we have been lazy and still haven't found a babysitter, so we haven't been able to get out of the house much

One would think that the desire to keep the marriage would trump EVERYTHING standing in the way of getting the 20+ hours. I am still on the fence and not comitted. I can't work up the desire to put in the time, but how do I work up the desire without spending the time - chicken and egg.

I am frustrated with myself for not putting in the time, but am also feeling like BH is the one who wants it more right now and even he isn't doing anything to facilitate time together.

This all sounds foggy still - how can that be after 4 months of NC? Nobody at work brings up OM's name anymore, but I still have flashbacks or thoughts of him every day. I know he has moved on and he will never be in my life again, but I recall memories with fondness. I want those same feelings again and feel I won't get them with BH.
Originally Posted by athena99
[

This all sounds foggy still - how can that be after 4 months of NC? Nobody at work brings up OM's name anymore, but I still have flashbacks or thoughts of him every day. I know he has moved on and he will never be in my life again, but I recall memories with fondness. I want those same feelings again and feel I won't get them with BH.

That sounds pretty normal. And yours was a long term affair so it might take longer.

Ok, what are you going to do about getting in this UA time? You can't complain that this is not working if you don't work it, Athena. This does work, you just have to do it. You have to make it happen. It is not going to happen by magic.

Quote
- we have been lazy and still haven't found a babysitter, so we haven't been able to get out of the house much

And what are you doing to find a babysitter?
Originally Posted by athena99
This all sounds foggy still - how can that be after 4 months of NC? Nobody at work brings up OM's name anymore, but I still have flashbacks or thoughts of him every day. I know he has moved on and he will never be in my life again, but I recall memories with fondness. I want those same feelings again and feel I won't get them with BH.

You're getting great advice from people who are much further along in this process than I am, but this particular point I can speak to.

This is completely normal. It happened to me for a long time. I thought about the OM everyday and still had those feelings for a long time. My situation was complicated by the fact that I had an OC as a constant reminder of the OM.

But it does get better. A year and a half into NC, I rarely think about the OM anymore. When I do think about him, the feelings just aren't there at all. I can honestly say that I don't have any feelings for him at all at this point. I don't miss having him in my life.

It does take time, but you will get there. I wasn't sure at first either, but eventually those feelings did fade.
Originally Posted by recon6mo
Do you think that it is possible to learn to meet that need?


My need is for sexual fulfillment. Right now, it is not the way I want it. I am not physically attracted to him and that is an important thing for me.

I feel selfish and shallow. But in order for him to meet that need, he needs to make a lot of changes. Changes that I don't think I have the right to request and even wonder if they will really make a difference. I have suggested on a number of occasions that he start exercising (for his own health as well as my attraction to him), but he brushes it off and says he doesn't like working out.

I don't like the way he kisses - it feels sloppy to me. I don't like his body, his sexual stamina, the wimpy way he looks at me. I feel like a horrible person saying this, but I can't keep these thoughts in and pretend I am not thinking them.

I don't think UA alone is going to magically fix all of this. Even my dr said I need to address and work through these issues and not just move on thinking they will work themselves out because we are spending time together.

I am not committed to UA and need to find something that gets me through this ambivalence so that the UA is palatable.

What other things can I be doing since the UA doesn't seem to be working for me? Surely it can't be one-size-fits-all and there are other methods to help gain some clarity so the rest of the program can be implemented.
Originally Posted by athena99
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
You need to KEEP UP the UA time and stop cutting corners. And I know you are cutting corners, so don't try and tell me you aren't. You are doing the program in a half assed way and then complaining it doesn't work. It takes 20+ hours of undivided attention time meeting the top 4 intimate needs. Consistently. EVERY WEEK. Not just sometimes. Not 5 hours this week and then 6 the next, etc, etc, etc. 20+ hours per week of UA CONSISTENTLY is what it takes to fall in love.


You are right, we aren't getting the 20+ hours in. Neither of us is committed to this. I am not attracted and he has shown that he is waiting for me to fix it.

It may just be excuses but:
- the kids are in activities and get to sleep between 8:30 and 9 on a consistent basis
- my antidepressants wipe me right out and I am usually not far behind them (in consultation with my dr, I am weaning myself off of them in the hopes of regaining some energy)
- I need to get up at 5am to get through the morning routine and to work on time so I can leave early enough to be home to meet the kids when they get off the bus (we don't have after school care)
- we have been lazy and still haven't found a babysitter, so we haven't been able to get out of the house much

One would think that the desire to keep the marriage would trump EVERYTHING standing in the way of getting the 20+ hours. I am still on the fence and not comitted. I can't work up the desire to put in the time, but how do I work up the desire without spending the time - chicken and egg.

I am frustrated with myself for not putting in the time, but am also feeling like BH is the one who wants it more right now and even he isn't doing anything to facilitate time together.

This all sounds foggy still - how can that be after 4 months of NC? Nobody at work brings up OM's name anymore, but I still have flashbacks or thoughts of him every day. I know he has moved on and he will never be in my life again, but I recall memories with fondness. I want those same feelings again and feel I won't get them with BH.


As Mel mentioned, you had a very long A, and you have this really puke way of bringing up the OM.

Right out of the box; have you destroyed every memento you have of your invasion of another woman's marriage? Not a single trinket, if you stuck a piece of gum you were chewing the last time you saw the OM under your kitchen table, burn the dang table.

You aren't out of withdrawal - and you aren't taking your prescription as prescribed. EVERYONE here (WS and BS) will tell you that things go to s#!+ when UA time is not met.

Also; how about answering the earlier question about what qualities your husband has that you do love?

How about endurance?
Originally Posted by athena99
[I feel selfish and shallow. But in order for him to meet that need, he needs to make a lot of changes. Changes that I don't think I have the right to request and even wonder if they will really make a difference. I have suggested on a number of occasions that he start exercising (for his own health as well as my attraction to him), but he brushes it off and says he doesn't like working out.

Not only do you have a "right" to request this, but you have an obligation to be radically honest with him about what bothers you. It doesn't make much sense to try and spend time together if you annoy each other.

What do you mean by wanting him to exercise? WHY? So he will lose weight? If that is what you want, then just say that. You have to be honest. Tell him you would find him more attractive if he would lose weight. Tell him how much. TELL HIM what he needs to do to be more attractive.

As far as weight loss goes, he will lose weight more effectively with diet, if that is the goal.

Quote
I don't like the way he kisses - it feels sloppy to me. I don't like his body, his sexual stamina, the wimpy way he looks at me. I feel like a horrible person saying this, but I can't keep these thoughts in and pretend I am not thinking them.

Tell him how you like being kissed. You are not a horrible person. NOT telling him this stuff is harmful to your marriage because if he doesn't know, then he can't change it!!

This is another reason I think you should get a coach.

Quote
I don't think UA alone is going to magically fix all of this. Even my dr said I need to address and work through these issues and not just move on thinking they will work themselves out because we are spending time together.

You need to do BOTH. This program will not work without the UA time. Tell your doctor that you are spinning your wheels if you don't get in the UA time.

Quote
I am not committed to UA and need to find something that gets me through this ambivalence so that the UA is palatable.

Your lack of committment prevents this from working. You CAN have romantic, passionate feelings for your H but you have to do the work. It is silly to complain that something doesn't work when the problem is YOU.

I am going to tell your H that if you don't get on board, he needs to consider filing for divorce and going into Plan B. You have a lot of work to do to make this work and I see you doing absolutely NOTHING here.
Originally Posted by writer1
This is completely normal. It happened to me for a long time. I thought about the OM everyday and still had those feelings for a long time. My situation was complicated by the fact that I had an OC as a constant reminder of the OM.

But it does get better. A year and a half into NC, I rarely think about the OM anymore. When I do think about him, the feelings just aren't there at all. I can honestly say that I don't have any feelings for him at all at this point. I don't miss having him in my life.

It does take time, but you will get there. I wasn't sure at first either, but eventually those feelings did fade.


I am confident that the feelings for OM will fade - I am sure he has moved on in his marriage and that chapter is done. But how did you generate feelings for your husband? I feel like other WS already have that committment once their A ends and that enables them to put in the effort to fix things. I didn't wake up after the A ended and feel like BH was my soul mate and I was so sorry for what I did. I know I made a mistake and don't like the person I have become who was able to behave like that. I am sorry I hurt BH. But I still don't feel like my marriage has been or ever be what I now know I want out of it.

It's not that I feel I am punishing him for not meeting my needs before - please don't think that. I just don't know how to move on when the way he has been all of these years is just not what I want anymore and I don't have confidence that he can change. I know I should give him that chance, but also feel like I don't have the rights to make those requests because of my bad behavior.
Originally Posted by athena99
My need is for sexual fulfillment. Right now, it is not the way I want it. I am not physically attracted to him and that is an important thing for me.

Do you cook the meals? Can you encourage healthier eating for the whole family? How about starting to get out to the park with the kids 3-4 times a week? Walk, ride bikes, etc? Are there any martial arts Dojos around? Would he be interested in taking some classes as a family?

Originally Posted by athena99
I feel selfish and shallow. But in order for him to meet that need, he needs to make a lot of changes. Changes that I don't think I have the right to request and even wonder if they will really make a difference. I have suggested on a number of occasions that he start exercising (for his own health as well as my attraction to him), but he brushes it off and says he doesn't like working out.

See the above.

Originally Posted by athena99
I don't like the way he kisses - it feels sloppy to me. I don't like his body, his sexual stamina, the wimpy way he looks at me. I feel like a horrible person saying this, but I can't keep these thoughts in and pretend I am not thinking them.

Mmmhmmm... do we need to guess your basis for comparison?

Though, I admit to a bit of wimpiness early on. It lasted... maybe the first month? Now, I'm not built like Eric Bana or anything... only 32 and I'm balding, a little extra weight in the middle. Know what? I was never really Mr. Washboard Abs, either. Not even in the best shape of my life, when I met FWW.

The thing that had changed is that I had invested my entire self-image into the approval of a neglectful, and then unfaithful, wife.

I'm also aware of the husband I can be, that I want to be, and that I let FWW's neglect of my needs cause me not to be.


So, one day I got all shaved, dressed, and looked in the mirror, and said; "Damn, I AM one handsome devil. I am a good man, and I am wicked intelligent. If FWW wants to toss that aside for horsecrap, I'll be fine."

FWW was out of town with her girlfriend thrift shopping that weekend, but I told her as much when she got home.

Confidence. Strength. Those were the missing factors of attraction.

Originally Posted by athena99
I don't think UA alone is going to magically fix all of this. Even my dr said I need to address and work through these issues and not just move on thinking they will work themselves out because we are spending time together.

That's a mighty assumption to make, WHEN YOU HAVEN'T EVEN BEEN MEETING THE MINIMUM REQUIREMENT.

Originally Posted by athena99
I am not committed to UA and need to find something that gets me through this ambivalence so that the UA is palatable.

What other things can I be doing since the UA doesn't seem to be working for me? Surely it can't be one-size-fits-all and there are other methods to help gain some clarity so the rest of the program can be implemented.

UA time is the way your affair was created - you lied, wriggled, and stole (from your husband and children) to cheat.

You aren't getting enough UA time, and I'd be willing to bet the UA time you do get isn't spent right.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/rei.pdf

Print that out and work with it on your husband. Also, see the thread in 101 on "At home RC."
Originally Posted by athena99
[But how did you generate feelings for your husband?

WE have told you how. Over and over and over again. They don't come by magic fairy dust. They come by giving your marriage the same care and attention you gave your affair. Schedule 20+ hours per week of UA. [It does not take 4 months to find a babysitter.] Be HONEST with your husband about your feelings about his weight and his kissing. TELL HIM. Tell him how to be a better husband and encourage him to be honest with you too.

The problem with the Marriage Builders program is that you have to actually WORK IT in order for it to work. It does not work by osmosis, unfortunately.

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
After the first step is completed, the second step is to create a romantic relationship between you and your husband using my 10 Basic Concepts here as your guide.

While your relationship may be improving, it won't lead to a romantic relationship because you are not being transparent toward each other. Unspoken issues in a marital relationship lead to a superficiality that ruins romance.
here
Quote
I am not committed to UA
There's your problem.

Quote
and need to find something that gets me through this ambivalence so that the UA is palatable.
It's called "making a choice."

Quote
What other things can I be doing since the UA doesn't seem to be working for me? Surely it can't be one-size-fits-all and there are other methods to help gain some clarity so the rest of the program can be implemented.
This program will not work without UA time. The problem is not UA, but that you are not committed to UA, and are neglecting it.

Meet your husband's intimate EN for 20 hours a week. ALLOW him to meet yours (that means you will need to be honest with him -- HOW do you like him to kiss you?). Try it for awhile. Your feelings will follow.

Don't make the same mistake I did. I hemmed and hawed about UA for 5 months because I hated spending time with my husband -- he wasn't what I wanted, I hated the things he did, I hated him (yadda, yadda, excuse, excuse). I just couldn't make myself do it. I never really gave UA a chance.

My marriage is now in shambles. I'm desperately trying to pick up the pieces, hoping against hope that my husband will give me a second chance.

UA time won't work (and thus, this program will not work) if you don't CHOOSE to commit yourself to it. And your marriage will fail.
How much weight does he need to lose?
Originally Posted by athena99
I am confident that the feelings for OM will fade - I am sure he has moved on in his marriage and that chapter is done. But how did you generate feelings for your husband? I feel like other WS already have that committment once their A ends and that enables them to put in the effort to fix things. I didn't wake up after the A ended and feel like BH was my soul mate and I was so sorry for what I did. I know I made a mistake and don't like the person I have become who was able to behave like that. I am sorry I hurt BH. But I still don't feel like my marriage has been or ever be what I now know I want out of it.

It's not that I feel I am punishing him for not meeting my needs before - please don't think that. I just don't know how to move on when the way he has been all of these years is just not what I want anymore and I don't have confidence that he can change. I know I should give him that chance, but also feel like I don't have the rights to make those requests because of my bad behavior.

There's a reason I only answered one part of your question, and the reason is that I haven't completely figured out the rest of it myself yet. I'm reading along in your thread for ideas on how to get there.

The truth is, my feelings for my H still are not what I would like them to be. EN's are still going unmet for me as well, and UA time isn't being perfectly met.

Though I'm not sure I believe in the concept of a "soul mate." All relationships take work. I don't think there's one perfect person waiting out there for me that everything would just be effortless and wonderful with. I think my marriage can be what I would like it to be. That's why I'm still here. I still have hope that we can work through these issues and fall back in love again. But I'm not there yet, so it's difficult for me to offer advice in that area.
Does anyone know of a marriage recovery program that works when you don't work it? I am thinking that is what is needed here. A program that works by magic. Magic Marriage!! laugh

Actually, I know of lots of marriage programs that don't work when you DO work them. grin
@Athena -

Quote
I want what I felt I had with OM. Something comfortable and safe with I man I am attracted to and am emotionally attached to.

This is pure Fantasy on your part. What you are saying is: I wish my BS was POSOM. Stop the Contrast Effect. This is part of the reason your BS is not attractive. POSOM is a POS. He is not safe and he really didn't have an emotional attachment to you. He dumped you when he was losing his marriage. You were second choice. Do you want BS to treat you like this?

You are really setting up your BH for further failure.

After getting some UA time your BS is O&H with you and what do you do you? Complain and start picking him apart, because he isn't POSOM! See how he can't win? He77 if he does He77 if he doen't.

You really need to get out of this Fog that POSOM is something wonderful!
Quote
I just don't know how to move on when the way he has been all of these years is just not what I want anymore and I don't have confidence that he can change.
This is very unfair to your H, Athena. Why are you not addressing your needs with him? You don't like the way he kisses? Tell him that. Tell him you would like to see him lose some weight.

Why are you not sharing with him the very things that are hanging you up? You're not in this alone. Your partner needs to know these things.
So, what is it, Athena?

A little stash? A photo?

Has OM been in contact?

Why is it that you keep pining for a man for whom you meant little more than a trophy lay?
I am being very honest - NC in 4 months. No momentos, no photos, no reminders - just memories. And they are good ones. Yes, we both dumped each other when the [censored] hit the fan, but we knew we needed to try and fix our marriages or we would always regret not trying. So I didn't really expect anything else from OM.

BH doesn't need to lose any weight. I would like him to work out so he has muscle instead of being so soft. OM wasn't in the best physical shape, yet I looked past it because I had deep feelings for him and he was confident in his body. I see the irony in that I shattered BH's confidence, so of course he doesn't have it. And I am probably grasping at straws about what BH needs to change, hoping that any change will help me become attracted to him.

The biggest thing is, I have tried to talk to him about this stuff and he gets frustrated that I keep on stabbing him with it. I try not to be hurtful but no matter how I bring it up, he doesn't want to hear about his flaws. He can't handle the truth and doesn't want to talk about anything that paints him in a less than perfect light.

I am not without my faults either, but I am trying to change. Is it too much to ask that he try too? I know it isn't.

I am pining for a man that treated me better than any other man in my life ever did. The circumstances were terrible, we were scumbags, and we lied to each other - but it still felt better than BH ever made me feel. Yes, probably the fog speaking and I should try to get the UA in so the fogginess goes away.
Quote
I am pining for a man that treated me better than any other man in my life ever did. The circumstances were terrible, we were scumbags, and we lied to each other
Is that really the best way any man has ever treated you? Terrible ... Scumbags ... Lies ... But it was great!

Quote
Yes, probably the fog speaking and I should try to get the UA in so the fogginess goes away.
Yep.
Be careful when walking up the stairs, Athena. The fog is so thick, I don't imagine you can see any of them.

He did not treat you better than anyone else. He didn't respect you. You don't treat someone your truly love and care for the way he treated you.

He treated you like an unpaid hooker. You should think about that. And he disrespected your entire life. He was willing to help you compromise your character, harm your children, and hurt your husband.

He's a winnah. Not.
Originally Posted by athena99
I am being very honest - NC in 4 months. No momentos, no photos, no reminders - just memories. And they are good ones. Yes, we both dumped each other when the [censored] hit the fan, but we knew we needed to try and fix our marriages or we would always regret not trying. So I didn't really expect anything else from OM.

BH doesn't need to lose any weight. I would like him to work out so he has muscle instead of being so soft. OM wasn't in the best physical shape, yet I looked past it because I had deep feelings for him and he was confident in his body. I see the irony in that I shattered BH's confidence, so of course he doesn't have it. And I am probably grasping at straws about what BH needs to change, hoping that any change will help me become attracted to him.

The biggest thing is, I have tried to talk to him about this stuff and he gets frustrated that I keep on stabbing him with it. I try not to be hurtful but no matter how I bring it up, he doesn't want to hear about his flaws. He can't handle the truth and doesn't want to talk about anything that paints him in a less than perfect light.

I am not without my faults either, but I am trying to change. Is it too much to ask that he try too? I know it isn't.

I am pining for a man that treated me better than any other man in my life ever did. The circumstances were terrible, we were scumbags, and we lied to each other - but it still felt better than BH ever made me feel. Yes, probably the fog speaking and I should try to get the UA in so the fogginess goes away.


This is where things get frustrating with you. You have a good head, it's just inserted rectally at times.

See the highlighted text? You kind of answer your own questions there.

So now, I wonder who suffers more from learned helplessness, you or your BH.

When it comes to recovering the M, seems like it's you.

dramaqueen

"I just don't love him! I don't think I ever did, I don't think I ever will!"

dramaqueen

Quote
In 1965, a scientist named Martin Seligman started shocking dogs.

He was trying to expand on the research of Pavlov � the guy who could make dogs salivate when they heard a bell ring.

Seligman wanted to head in the other direction, and when he rang his bell instead of providing food he zapped them with electricity. To keep them still, he restrained them in a harness during the experiment.

After they were conditioned, he put these dogs in a big box with a little fence dividing it into two halves.

They figured if they rang the bell, the dog would hop over the fence to escape, but it didn�t. It just sat there and braced itself.

They decided to try shocking them after the bell. The dog still just sat there and took it.

When they put a dog in the box which had never been shocked before and tried to zap it � it jumped the fence.

You are just like these dogs.

If, over the course of your life, you have experienced crushing defeat or pummeling abuse or loss of control, you learn over time there is no escape, and if escape is offered, you will not act � you become a nihilist who trusts futility above optimism.

Are you a dog in a cage, Athena?

I happen to think you are slightly more intelligent than a canine being threatened with electric shock.

And yet, knowing the consequences of inaction, you pout and sulk, and surrender.

I understand the emotional aversion. I really do. My emotions have told me a hundred times to just kick FWW to the curb and get on with my life. But, that isn't really the BEST for myself, for my wife, or for my children, is it?

Giving up serves you no better.

I'll tell you, though, that regaining my confidence was not a happy thing, at first, for FWW - because one of the first things my confidence told me is that I no longer had to put up with her treating me like crap, that I was capable of making any woman I chose to a very happy woman, and that if she did not commit to this marriage and recovering it, that woman dang sure would not be her.

You've got the tools, you've got the smarts... now quit being so damn whiny and lazy.

And you say your husband is wimpy?

Puh.
I really hope you don't have anything that digs up memories and feelings.

See the little quote in my sig line?

Have you ever watched that movie? If not, I suggest you do. It's a fine example of how preserving "good memories" of a toxic relationship blinds you to what is right before your eyes every day.
Originally Posted by athena99
but also feel like I don't have the rights to make those requests because of my bad behavior.

This,

I totally get. It is a quandry. How do you tell someone what is wrong without hurting him anymore? What right do we have?

It sounds like coaching would be good for you. He needs someone to tell him to man up and for various reasons it probably won't work coming from you.


I don't feel like Athea is the only one who wants things to "magically" get better. She wants her husband to step up and fight.
Athena99,

I read through all the advice you were given, all rock solid plans and ideas, but girl you are not interested in saving your marriage, you keep going back to the comparisons between the OM and your husband, you would rather feel good about someone who didn't respect you, lied to his own wife and carried on an affair in the eyes of God...........Why is that Athena, I think the problem lies with you and the way you allow yourself to think, you are desperately hanging on to that fantasy world, the feelings, you are not seeing that relationship or that man for what it really was, that is sad Athena.
You are worth more than that, you are allowing your past to stop you from being someone who can respect themselves..........it's not worth it........
You will always be unhappy if you continue to think this way........If the OM really was an upstanding man, he would have saved your relationship, he would have stayed with you...........but Athena he followed his heart and it really wasn't with you, just in the fantasy world you have allowed yourself to believe.
What you should be thinking is that you are grateful for a 2nd chance with your husband and family after everything you have done and continue to do to them.
You are still acting very hurtful and still saying hurtful things.......what do you expect................no one is just going to stand there and be a punching bag, you leave your husband no choice but to say to you, I'll give you time to fix what is wrong inside of you.............if he was saying I'm not attracted to you, I'm only going through the motions would you feel loved, I bet you wouldn't.
You are asking so much of him, maybe you need to just get yourself together before you put any more burden on anyone else.............Why don't you separate or stay with family until your head is clearer............if you are truly finished because of the way you think then leave and start over.............this isn't fair to your husband, you are still emotionally attached to someone else, someone who doesn't even deserve to be in the picture, you are married Athena.......
Until that emotional connection is gone, you should let your husband move on.......
If you can't get on board, why hurt him more.......
Originally Posted by sunnydaze53
I totally get. It is a quandry. How do you tell someone what is wrong without hurting him anymore? What right do we have?

How about this; failing to be radically honest Pre-A is what made you and your marriage vulnerable to adultery.

Yes, it's hard to consider approaching the trauma patient with requests when they are still bleeding. Maybe they will react negatively. Who knows?

However, sacrificing your ENs to guilt does not help either of you.

Your spouse cannot deposit units into your LB$ IF THEY DON'T KNOW HOW. And they should know how, and what makes the biggest, and most efficient deposits.


Regular review of the ENQ is one of the best tools available, as it will serve as a facilitating tool to the conversation.


And, if you didn't know; GET YOUR FREAKING UA TIME IN.

We are all guilty from time to time of not meeting the UA requirement - don't let it rule you.
Originally Posted by athena99
I feel selfish and shallow. But in order for him to meet that need, he needs to make a lot of changes. Changes that I don't think I have the right to request and even wonder if they will really make a difference.

Do not call yourself selfish and shallow for being wired the way you are. Everybody wants fulfillment in their relationship and what brings fulfillment is unique for each person.

Dr. Harley says that making requests in marriage is good. He actually says "I want you to make a lot of requests of each other." (I'm trying to quote from memory, so I may be a little off.) He wants both husband and wife to get what they need and what they want in marriage.

You have no right to demands in your marriage, but there is nothing wrong with making requests! The key difference between a demand and a request is that a request will accept "no" for an answer. If the answer is "no," you either think of circumstances under which your spouse might be willing to grant your request, or you withdraw the request. In your case because of the damage from the past the answer to some requests might be "no" now, but "yes," later, so you may need to be somewhat patient.

If you are not sure if a particular change will make a difference or not, just ask to try it. Explain how you feel: I think I might like this, how would you feel about trying it for a week or two? If it doesn't make a difference, don't give up! Keep brainstorming and think of other things you might try until you have the problem solved.
A request is not a big deal. In most cases, it shouldn't be anything that would hurt someone. (If you are hurting, it's because you are including a disrespectful judgment or other abuse along with your request.)

Do you feel like your spouse SHOULD be doing what you are requesting? Then it's not a request; it's a disrespectful judgment, and of course it will hurt. Do you feel ENTITLED to what you are requesting? These feelings can turn your request into a demand.

Sure, you don't have a right to have all of your requests granted! But making the request itself? That should be so simple and innocuous that, assuming you both want to recover the marriage, it shouldn't be a question whether or not you have a right to make the request.
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Originally Posted by sunnydaze53
I totally get. It is a quandry. How do you tell someone what is wrong without hurting him anymore? What right do we have?

However, sacrificing your ENs to guilt does not help either of you.

If both lovebanks are not being filled, there is no hope for romantic love.

Rather than "what right do I have" to tell the BS what you need, think of it as "What right do I have to keep vital information from the BS?" The BS needs feedback on how to fill your lovebank. Without it, he is lost in the dark. By withholding that information, you're not only depriving yourself, you are hurting your BS. You are depriving him of any hope for romantic love and a full recovery.
The OM made you feel special and accepted and so in love because it is a skill he has with women.
You
His wife
Any other who strikes his fancy to cross the line of cheating on his legally wedded wife.

There are men all over the planet with that attractive skill.

Doesn't mean they are really, truly how you percieve them to be.

Your H sounds like a keeper. A guy with potential to soar in all areas. He married you....wow! what a guy. He made that commitment to you. He looked the other way when he initially discovered the A to hope to ride it out and be with YOU.

He is for YOU. Really for you.

OM isn't. Never was. It was empty, cruel, hot/sexy ideas that were not true/real/worthy.
Originally Posted by markos
assuming you both want to recover the marriage


That is it exactly. I don't think I want it anymore. I don't think I honestly care for BH right now and doubt I can repair that hole.

I don't want OM either. I am hung up on the emotions and feelings I had, but he was never mine and never will be. I treated him badly and he did the same to me.

The only people I care deeply about right now are my children and myself. I don't want to hurt them or lose time with them, but I am stuck because I can't stop that from happening unless I stay with BH. And that isn't sitting well with me.

I am seriously considering that I am done. If I had a LB$ balance, then I should care even a little bit. I have nothing.

I would rather be alone. I never thought I'd say that. I have always thought that experiencing things with someone was better than going it alone. But now I am finding I don't want to include him in my life at all. I'd rather put up the wall and keep him out. I don't mind interacting in a "just friends" way, but anything else is terribly difficult, including UA.

I may not deserve better, but he does. And if I can't bring myself to put in the effort required to fix this marriage, I should do the honorable thing and end it. The kids won't get any benefit out of seeing us limping through in an unhappy and shell of a marriage.

I feel like I am finally being brutally honest with myself. My heart feels heavy (I am letting my kids down in a huge way), but my shoulders feel lighter.

Perhaps the first counselor I had was right all along. She could see through everything and knew I was done - I just didn't have the courage to see it myself.
Originally Posted by athena99
I am being very honest - NC in 4 months. No momentos, no photos, no reminders - just memories. And they are good ones. Yes, we both dumped each other when the [censored] hit the fan, but we knew we needed to try and fix our marriages or we would always regret not trying. So I didn't really expect anything else from OM.
Something about the way you keep mentioning OM makes me puke. It's as if, were OM to divorce his wife and call you on the phone, you'd toss your BH aside in an instant and return to your Fantasy Affair Land. This comment, and others about OM, make it clear you don't EXPECT anything from OM but you still WANT things from OM. You both dumped each other, you say? Really? Why are you back in this marriage?

Whatever baloney OM fed you when he dumped you, you need to stop believing. You were his 2nd choice, his nookie on the side, and he didn't respect you at all. Maybe he had a silver tongue, a silver wallet, or a silver member, but his heart sure wasn't silver. You shouldn't respect him a wit for the way he betrayed his own family, and YOUR family in such a selfish way. And he shouldn't respect you, and clearly didn't, for the way you lowered yourself.
Quote
And I am probably grasping at straws about what BH needs to change, hoping that any change will help me become attracted to him.
I'm glad you see this.

Next step: Why don't you grab the nearest picture of OM, blow it up to life size and create a cardboard cutout of it? You can sketch in washboard abs, a debonair smile, and a bouquet of roses. Stand it up in your bedroom and tell POSBH that he needs to use you, then toss you out like a piece of trash the way marvelous DOM did, and then maybe you'll fall back in love with your hubby. I'm sure this will motivate him to be a better husband. MrRollieEyes

You are deeply, deeply foggy.
Originally Posted by athena99
The only people I care deeply about right now are my children and myself.
Don't fool yourself. If you really care about your kids, you wouldn't be considering shattering their whole world. You would be falling all over yourself to keep their whole world, their whole security, meaning YOUR MARRIAGE, together.

The only thing you really care about is you. That is why you had the affair. That is why you are throwing your hands up in disgust right now.


Quote
I may not deserve better, but he does.

Don't use that excuse, either. He deserves to be in love with the mother of his children. If you walk away, it's because YOU are not willing to give him that.

Quote
I feel like I am finally being brutally honest with myself. My heart feels heavy (I am letting my kids down in a huge way), but my shoulders feel lighter.
Try to be a little more brutal. You are not wanting to do the work, and you're just giving up. You'll tear your childrens lives a part doing so, but at least you don't have to mend what you destroyed.
Originally Posted by Prisca
Try to be a little more brutal. You are not wanting to do the work, and you're just giving up. You'll tear your childrens lives a part doing so, but at least you don't have to mend what you destroyed.

I am just giving up. I don't have it in me to fake it anymore.
I struggle with this myself. I would prefer to be alone.

My children would prefer their parents be married.

I can always get divorced but I can't always work on this marriage.

Instead of 4 months, give it 4 years.

Just focus on today...on things you enjoy. It really will get better.
Hey, sounds like a great idea.

Leave your marriage and scar your children. And then you can do the "step-dad-shuffle" because, well, they will probably end up deserving better either, and you won't be willing to work on it.

4 or 5 marriages down the road, maybe you will learn to stop running.

Maybe not.
Originally Posted by athena99
Originally Posted by Prisca
Try to be a little more brutal. You are not wanting to do the work, and you're just giving up. You'll tear your childrens lives a part doing so, but at least you don't have to mend what you destroyed.

I am just giving up. I don't have it in me to fake it anymore.

Coward.
Do you know what your kids are going to think of you? You, their mother, who betrayed their father then just didn't have it in her to hold their world together?
I don't understand why you worry about whether or not you have the right to make requests of your husband,

but you don't worry about whether or not you have the right to give up. You just assume you have that right.

It seems to me that requests are little, and divorce is big.

It seems to me that if you think you don't have the right to make requests, you'd for sure assume you don't have the right to a divorce.
Originally Posted by Prisca
Don't use that excuse, either. He deserves to be in love with the mother of his children. If you walk away, it's because YOU are not willing to give him that.

Yes, he deserves to have me be in love with him but no, I am not comfortable giving him that right now.

I don't like that I feel this way, but I can't lie about it. It is how I am feeling and am disappointed that I can't seem to get past it. "Just get past it" isn't a plan. The UA part of the program is not working for me. I am not expecting anything by osmosis, but I need another approach that works better for me. I can't do the UA until I commit. I don't know how to commit - that is the part I need to learn.
Originally Posted by athena99
If I had a LB$ balance, then I should care even a little bit. I have nothing.

Well, this is true.

Quote
I am seriously considering that I am done.

But this doesn't make any sense. Your Love Bank is not a device for telling you if you are done or not.

Your husband's balance in your Love Bank is empty, and it can be filled.

You are married to a goose who lays golden eggs that can fill it. Do not kill him. Feed him and take care of him.
Originally Posted by athena99
Originally Posted by Prisca
Don't use that excuse, either. He deserves to be in love with the mother of his children. If you walk away, it's because YOU are not willing to give him that.

Yes, he deserves to have me be in love with him but no, I am not comfortable giving him that right now.

I don't like that I feel this way, but I can't lie about it. It is how I am feeling and am disappointed that I can't seem to get past it. "Just get past it" isn't a plan. The UA part of the program is not working for me. I am not expecting anything by osmosis, but I need another approach that works better for me. I can't do the UA until I commit. I don't know how to commit - that is the part I need to learn.

You need to be a grownup.

You need to make a decision.

You need to stop gazing at your navel and looking for a sign that's never going to come.

You owe it to those babies you say you care about, and your husband, and even yourself to actually try.

And don't kid yourself. You haven't tried at all yet. And if you walk away at this point, no one will be fooled. It's not an act of caring or love or respect for husband or children. It's supreme selfishness.

You have an amazing opportunity in front of you. You have the gift of a second chance, and a willing spouse. And look at you. Walking away, because you might actually have to put some effort into it.
Originally Posted by athena99
Originally Posted by Prisca
Don't use that excuse, either. He deserves to be in love with the mother of his children. If you walk away, it's because YOU are not willing to give him that.

Yes, he deserves to have me be in love with him but no, I am not comfortable giving him that right now.

I don't like that I feel this way, but I can't lie about it. It is how I am feeling and am disappointed that I can't seem to get past it. "Just get past it" isn't a plan. The UA part of the program is not working for me. I am not expecting anything by osmosis, but I need another approach that works better for me. I can't do the UA until I commit. I don't know how to commit - that is the part I need to learn.


How would you know that something your haven't even tried doesn't work?

That's like finding out you have stage 1 cancer, and refusing to take chemo because you don't like the side effects, and then stating; that chemo drug isn't working for me.

Uh, duh?
Quote
You haven't tried at all yet.
ITA. You haven't even brought your H on board with recovery plans if you aren't sharing your needs with him. He's currently in the dark and guessing. Again, this is not fair to anyone.
Originally Posted by athena99
I don't like that I feel this way, but I can't lie about it.

Do you have to do everything you feel?

Quote
"Just get past it" isn't a plan.

It's a good thing NOBODY is telling you to just get past it.

YOUR plan seems to be "just get past it and then do Marriage Builders."

The Marriage Builders plan is "do Marriage Builders and recover your marriage." There is no "just get past it."

Quote
The UA part of the program is not working for me.

You mean you don't like it, or you don't think you'll get what you want from it.

Don't lie. You said you can't lie about it. Don't lie to yourself.

Quote
I can't do the UA until I commit.

You can do whatever you want, and it's clear that you will.
I agree with you all - I/we haven't fully committed to the program. Again, I feel like I need to commit in order to be true to the program, but without starting the program, how do I get the desire to commit.

Originally Posted by RidicSit
You need to be a grownup.

You need to make a decision.

How?

Originally Posted by RidicSit
And don't kid yourself. You haven't tried at all yet. And if you walk away at this point, no one will be fooled. It's not an act of caring or love or respect for husband or children. It's supreme selfishness.

I am not disagreeing. There is a fine line between selfishness and self-preservation though. I feel like I am drowning and when BH doesn't look like a decent port in the storm for me, I need to do something else. Right now, it's either do the UA (which I am having a really hard time with) or leave. I am trying to find another option so that I can get myself to the point where I want to do UA.
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by athena99
I don't like that I feel this way, but I can't lie about it.

Do you have to do everything you feel?

Athena, following your feelings is what led to your decision to have a long-term affair... and look where that got you.

Your feelings betray you. Now you're going to give up on your marriage and your family because of your feelings? Haven't you learned that feelings change, and mislead you?
Originally Posted by markos
Do you have to do everything you feel?
My feelings do guide me. I haven't adjusted to the fact that that isn't a part of MB. I have a hard time ignoring my feelings.

Originally Posted by markos
YOUR plan seems to be "just get past it and then do Marriage Builders."

The Marriage Builders plan is "do Marriage Builders and recover your marriage." There is no "just get past it."
I mean to say "just get past the negative feelings and do UA anyway". That is what I am having a hard time with. Feelings follow action, but I am literally frozen because my feelings won't let me get that far.

Originally Posted by markos
Quote
The UA part of the program is not working for me.

You mean you don't like it, or you don't think you'll get what you want from it.

Don't lie. You said you can't lie about it. Don't lie to yourself.
I don't like it. I would rather spend my time alone.

Originally Posted by markos
Quote
I can't do the UA until I commit.

You can do whatever you want, and it's clear that you will.

Yes, I do have choices. I just suck at making them. I sit on the fence endlessly and get stuck in a paralysis. I am tired of it and need to make a decision.

God, I know that this should be easier - the decision should be simple - stay and try to make it work. WTF is wrong with me that I really don't want to! I've typed and erased a bunch of sentences, but they don't make any sense. Lazy - that is the only answer.
Originally Posted by StuckWaiting
Your feelings betray you. Now you're going to give up on your marriage and your family because of your feelings? Haven't you learned that feelings change, and mislead you?

No, this is something I never learned.
Originally Posted by athena99
Originally Posted by RidicSit
You need to be a grownup.

You need to make a decision.

How?

Originally Posted by RidicSit
And don't kid yourself. You haven't tried at all yet. And if you walk away at this point, no one will be fooled. It's not an act of caring or love or respect for husband or children. It's supreme selfishness.

I am not disagreeing. There is a fine line between selfishness and self-preservation though. I feel like I am drowning and when BH doesn't look like a decent port in the storm for me, I need to do something else. Right now, it's either do the UA (which I am having a really hard time with) or leave. I am trying to find another option so that I can get myself to the point where I want to do UA.

How? You stand up. You decide that you will go balls to the wall for a year, to do better, to be better, to do better by your family. You decide that you will work the program. You will stop making excuses. You will grow up and act like the woman who can honor the promises she made.

You listen to Yoda. There is no try. Only do.
Originally Posted by athena99
Originally Posted by StuckWaiting
Your feelings betray you. Now you're going to give up on your marriage and your family because of your feelings? Haven't you learned that feelings change, and mislead you?

No, this is something I never learned.

How is this possible?
Quote
I agree with you all - I/we haven't fully committed to the program. Again, I feel like I need to commit in order to be true to the program, but without starting the program, how do I get the desire to commit.
Look at your children. If you truly care for them, you will do it for them.

Are your feelings worth more than your children?
Ok... seriously... what is the truth behind all of this backpedaling and these excuses?

What is really going on?
Athena99,
Isn't this attitude part of why you find yourself in this position?
If you both had tried like everyone is trying to tell you would you not both be in love now.....
Do you want to continue this path for the rest of your life or do you want to enter a life that you don't know exists for you. It is there Athena you have to take it full force and be totally committed to feel it..........Athena it is so great on that other side of life, why not give it a shot, if you find what we are all saying that it can be so much better than your life has been, you can quit then, you owe it to YOURSELF to live this life in love with someone you think about non stop, waiting to be with again...........that is the man you started this journey with........if it wasn't right before because of fear and hurt, change that make it what you both want, you have the power to change things, be brave let it happen for you.............If you dont' you will be lost forever ............the grass isn't greener it's how you take care of your grass........
It would be a shame to have come all this way to have learned so much about yourself to let it go now.................
This is for you Athena, we all want it for you, you just have to catch up......
Go over and kiss your husband like you mean it, tell him you love him more than anything else and love him like you should from now on..............
You will be amazed and grateful for being strong very soon.......
It seems to me that you have nothing left to lose. That should make it a little easier. Don't be afraid of asking for things and changing things in your marriage. What's the worst that could happen?

I think what I would recommend to get past your feelings is to take an evening to really wrap your head around this. Sit down, take a bath, stare in the mirror, whatever, and tell yourself you will (or won't) give it everything you've got. Do you ever go running or cycle or do exercise like that (I'm trying to come up with an analogy that would make sense)? When you're completely exhausted and the finish is still a few miles off, you make a decision. You are either going to stop and give in and give up or you feel that amazing, euphoric rush of endorphins that tells you that you can and you will and you do, even though a few seconds ago you felt totally hopeless.

The mind, and your feelings, are amazing things. Life is all about perception. There isn't going to be a plan that tells you how to make a decision, but you can make one. You just have to sit down and ask yourself it. The one thing that I would keep in mind is that if you don't try your hardest on this, you may regret it. If you try your hardest and it still doesn't work out? You'll be back at leaving, but this time you'll have the peace of mind that you really did try.

This is kind of like jumping off the high dive. You are up there right now. You need to either be all in, or turn around and climb down, never knowing what it's like to have given it everything you've got and jumped. Is there a plan that will tell you how to make that decision? No. It's something you need to find within yourself.
Originally Posted by anoni_mouse
I think what I would recommend to get past your feelings is to take an evening to really wrap your head around this. Sit down, take a bath, stare in the mirror, whatever, and tell yourself you will (or won't) give it everything you've got.


Yeah, I feel like my head is swimming and I need to do something so I can breathe. I want the space to think and wanting that space makes me wonder if I really just want out. Taking some time for myself to think is something I never do. I am always too busy doing something else. But now I feel like doing anything without BH is violating MB and I am stuck feeling guilty about that. I have frequent guilt spirals and pity parties. Following my feelings is the cause of it.

Originally Posted by anoni_mouse
Do you ever go running or cycle or do exercise like that (I'm trying to come up with an analogy that would make sense)? When you're completely exhausted and the finish is still a few miles off, you make a decision. You are either going to stop and give in and give up or you feel that amazing, euphoric rush of endorphins that tells you that you can and you will and you do, even though a few seconds ago you felt totally hopeless.


I used to have drive and took pleasure in accomplishing things. I have lost that in the last 7 years as our lives turned upside down with the kids and we didn't know how to deal with it properly.

I need to get my life in order. Right now, doing anything other than leaving seems impossible. Our lives are so difficult and poorly planned that even finding an hour a day to work on myself is impossible. I feel trapped in my life and by association, my marriage. I want to get out of that cage. I need to find the time to plan my escape properly and get over my aversion to having him involved in that plan.
I'm throwing a Bullpoop Flag on this whole "new" turn toward hopelessness. Sorry (?) to be harsh, but OM ends A, she comes here to MB...BH comes here to MB...A back on, and now what to do??? THAT makes sense.

No, A99, not "trapped". Maybe "cornered" here at MB. HHH asked the right question, I think, because something smells.
Not sure I have any good advice in that regard, but...you're still here, and still reading. That's a sign you haven't given up the ghost just yet.

Feelings DO change.

Early after D-Day, when WW and I were deciding what to do (i.e. before I learned about MB and was a total doormat) the song "Wild Horses" by Natasha Bedingfield came on in the car, and WW started weeping. She wanted nothing more than to "be free" like a wild horse running in the meadows.

She certainly experienced freedom. A world where she takes care of herself when she has surgery, foreclosure is imminent, she is shunned by most of her friends and family, she eats dinner alone each night and wallows in the knowledge that she ruined her own life with her betrayal.

Maybe it doesn't work out that way for everyone, but her feelings sure changed in a hurry.
Take a day off together, send the kids to a sitter/relative, stay up a little later or get up earlier and go for a walk?
Originally Posted by Surfer88
I'm throwing a Bullpoop Flag on this whole "new" turn toward hopelessness. Sorry (?) to be harsh, but OM ends A, she comes here to MB...BH comes here to MB...A back on, and now what to do??? THAT makes sense.

No, A99, not "trapped". Maybe "cornered" here at MB. HHH asked the right question, I think, because something smells.

I don't know how a wayward could be so foggy without there being contact with OM recently. Or at least, hardcore triggers nearby.

Maybe this is out of line. But it seems to me, maybe Athena wants Helo to read this thread and believe she's genuinely "hopeless" to cover up the fact there has been contact with OM.

If she's on the board talking about how there hasn't been contact for 4 months it must be true? Right? Right??! dramaqueen
Originally Posted by anoni_mouse
Take a day off together, send the kids to a sitter/relative, stay up a little later or get up earlier and go for a walk?

We have the whole week away from the kids and have been sitting here across the table from each other all day - not talking. We went for a walk at lunch, but all I wanted was to be by myself.
Then you're back to needing to make that leap.

You don't make the leap: you sit there awkwardly forever, not talking, and wanting to be alone.

You make the leap: you wink at him or make a funny face, you laugh, you ask what you want to do for dinner tonight, you play a video game together or paint or have fun in some form.. etc.

I like the second option better, personally.
What Stuck said...x10.
Originally Posted by StuckWaiting
Originally Posted by Surfer88
I'm throwing a Bullpoop Flag on this whole "new" turn toward hopelessness. Sorry (?) to be harsh, but OM ends A, she comes here to MB...BH comes here to MB...A back on, and now what to do??? THAT makes sense.

No, A99, not "trapped". Maybe "cornered" here at MB. HHH asked the right question, I think, because something smells.

I don't know how a wayward could be so foggy without there being contact with OM recently. Or at least, hardcore triggers nearby.

Maybe this is out of line. But it seems to me, maybe Athena wants Helo to read this thread and believe she's genuinely "hopeless" to cover up the fact there has been contact with OM.

If she's on the board talking about how there hasn't been contact for 4 months it must be true? Right? Right??! dramaqueen


You know, I can certainly see how you think all of this. And that is why I am wondering if there isn't something else I need to be doing. If after 4 months I am still feeling this way, what else do I need to do?

I really hope Helo hasn't read this thread - he promised me he wouldn't anymore. I need a place where I can say things he has not wanted to hear me say. I am gun shy about addressing these issues with him, just as he is with me. I am here so I can get clarity and figure out how to talk with him properly. This discussion today would have driven him crazy, especially if I eventually get turned around and start accepting it.

I assure you - and I know my word doesn't mean much here - I have not seen/talked to/contacted OM in over 4 months. I don't have momentos or trinkets laying around. I have full transparency with BH - he has access to my phone, my email, facebook, twitter. I have been meaning to set up the GPS tracking if I could only get my phone S/W to cooperate. I do still have the same job I did during the A - is that still too much even though he is gone? BH and I agreed on the level of precautions - are they not enough? I can certainly do more, with the exception of moving or changing jobs. I already avoid ALL corporate events and stay away from our head office as I have no idea where OM could be. My managers know of the A and are not pressuring me to attend, so I am very lucky.

Is this level of fog only because we haven't gotten the UA in? Or is it an abnormal level of fog after 4 months NC even without UA? The fog is keeping me from moving forward, I need to clear it. I feel that I have made an enormous change in ending the A and keeping it finished. I am annoyed that I am still foggy - it doesn't please me. It makes my life hard.

Is it because I let my feelings guide me that I am foggier than most? How do I undo that?

I am not being dense or difficult. I am a smart person with very good reasons to do the right thing, but am frustratingly paralyzed and I don't know what to do and how to do it.
Originally Posted by anoni_mouse
Then you're back to needing to make that leap.

You don't make the leap: you sit there awkwardly forever, not talking, and wanting to be alone.

You make the leap: you wink at him or make a funny face, you laugh, you ask what you want to do for dinner tonight, you play a video game together or paint or have fun in some form.. etc.

I like the second option better, personally.


This is what I mean by "just get past it". I can't jump into winking at him. It feels WRONG! Yeah, I get the stupidity of that statement. But to wink implies I am feeling something I am not. And if I let myself play along with it, it will go places I do not want to go. I am fine with being friends and playing games, making dinner. I like him as a friend. But I don't see him as my lover or intimate friend anymore.

We do the friend stuff no problem. But I put up the wall for everything else.
Originally Posted by athena99
Originally Posted by anoni_mouse
Then you're back to needing to make that leap.

You don't make the leap: you sit there awkwardly forever, not talking, and wanting to be alone.

You make the leap: you wink at him or make a funny face, you laugh, you ask what you want to do for dinner tonight, you play a video game together or paint or have fun in some form.. etc.

I like the second option better, personally.


This is what I mean by "just get past it".


That's not "just geting past it." It's consciously and deliberately taking one step in the right direction. There is no magic pill that's going to make you feel like doing it. You just have to tell yourself: "I'm going to do this." Then do it.

You are a grown woman. You are capable of making yourself doing something even when you do not feel like it.

Quote
I can't jump into winking at him. It feels WRONG! Yeah, I get the stupidity of that statement. But to wink implies I am feeling something I am not. And if I let myself play along with it, it will go places I do not want to go. I am fine with being friends and playing games, making dinner.
Then play games and make dinner. Winking was just one of the suggestions. Just do something together that you both enjoy.

Quote
I like him as a friend. But I don't see him as my lover or intimate friend anymore.
Intimacy will come later, after you've worked the program. It doesn't happen over night. No one expects you to feel intimate right now.

Originally Posted by Prisca
Intimacy will come later, after you've worked the program. It doesn't happen over night. No one expects you to feel intimate right now.


And maybe this is why I am so stuck. UA includes SF and I feel like a failure before I even start. I guess I am so scared of being intimate with him that I didn't know I could work the plan without it.
Originally Posted by athena99
Originally Posted by Prisca
Intimacy will come later, after you've worked the program. It doesn't happen over night. No one expects you to feel intimate right now.


And maybe this is why I am so stuck. UA includes SF and I feel like a failure before I even start. I guess I am so scared of being intimate with him that I didn't know I could work the plan without it.


I wasn't necessarily talking about SF. I was talking about the feeling of intimacy. Intimacy is more than SF.

I'll bow to others experiences of whether or not SF should happen right now. I have no clue about that.
I don't want to make excuses, but I think I need to address my depression and lack of motivation before I can take on the task of working the MB plan. I can't even consider making changes to my life without having a panic attack thinking about how difficult it will be to rearrange schedules and expectations. I have no energy to do this right now and as much as I know you all want to help, I am only getting more sad and frustrated by my own inaction.

Perhaps once I figure out how to make myself get off my [censored] and do something, then I can start following this plan.

BH and I have been chatting the last 15 minutes or so and I have been sharing my frustration with myself. This isn't a "woe is me" ... I am just incapable of doing MB right now - I need to start smaller.
Athena, are you on anti-depressants?
Quote
But I put up the wall for everything else.
I'll say this again: It is NOT fair to Helo that you are not sharing your honest thoughts with him! This is creating a stumbling block for you! Do you not see this?
Athena, did you do the EN worksheet recently and share w/ Helo?

Prisca is awesome. Good luck.
"This isn't a "woe is me" ... "

Ohhhhh, but it IS.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Athena, are you on anti-depressants?

I talked to my dr last week and she is weaning me off of them in the hopes I can get some energy back and not feel so detached from my life.

I really believe my depression is holding me back. Whereas I started on medication because I was suicidal, now my depression is less likely to be a chemical imbalance and more situational. My dr says meds don't help with situational depression - I need behavioral changes for that. And from where I am right now, MB is too big a step.

BH and I wrote a big "reboot" plan for me a month or so ago and I followed through for the first week and then lost my focus/control. It was a rigid and unforgiving schedule that as soon as I started to miss a few items, I lost momentum and couldn't get it back. I need to start small and work my way up to bigger accomplishments.

I know I am capable of so much - I have seen myself do some amazing things and be very committed. I know you are disappointed in and bewildered by my behaviour - hey, me too.

Originally Posted by Surfer88
Athena, did you do the EN worksheet recently and share w/ Helo?

Prisca is awesome. Good luck.


He did his and shared it with me. I still haven't done mine. Probably because I dread revealing that SF is high on my needs list, it isn't the way I like it, but I'm ok with the current frequency because I don't want it at all.

He has told me he doesn't like criticism (and he takes any comment that doesn't paint him in a perfect light as criticism). So I take the cowards way out and avoid telling him.

Also high on my list is "attractive spouse" and again, know that won't go over well.
Why would you feel intimate towards someone you already devalued and disrespected and discounted.
Of course you feel nothing for him.
You will when you realize what a prize you have. You just have not realized that yet.
H=prize
OM=nightmare that looks yummy but is toxic to all you hold dear down deep in your soul....kids....family.....and yes......spouse.
Athena, first, I would like to advise you to contact the Harleys. I really truly believe that you will only benefit from it.

Second, what I want to do is ask you to think about something. What would a DIVORCE look like to you? Helo and you could have a 50/50 shared custody arrangement. Maybe it would be one week with you and one week with him. Where would you live? Would you be able to afford all of the bills alone? Then, on your 50% of the time, you would be 100% responsible for your children. When one of your children is sick, in the middle of the night, and you have run out of medicine, you can't just go out to the store. You will need to bundle up all of the children and go to the store to get that medicine. Even the sick one. It would be unfair to Helo for you to take his children away from him for 50% of the time and then expect him to come to your "rescue." And then, while you are too busy taking care of your children, when are you going to find time to date? Oh, on those glorious days when your children are with Helo? Most likely, those days will be spent missing those children. And then, some short time later, Helo will find someone who will move in with him. And that woman will be playing games with your children. She will be reading them bedtime stories. She will be laughing with them. SHE will be there for all of those moments. Heartbreaking.
You will NOT have the "Fantasy DIVORCE" that you are looking for.

I am frankly quite angry with you right now.

You are sitting here complaining that Helo did nothing during those 2 years to save your marriage, what did YOU do(other than having a HORRIBLE AFFAIR)?

You came on here, you ended your PA(not mentally, but physically) and then you did WHAT? You haven't even taken the time to find a sitter. You've become quite good at making excuses(or actually just ignoring the questions) why you haven't been able to find time for UA. STOP IT.

Come on Athena, you know what needs to be done. JUST DO IT ALREADY.
Truth, Athena?

I think you are thinking too much about yourself, and every emotion or will that washes over you. And not thinking about anyeone else. Even your OM thoughts aren't really about him. They are about your reactions to him.

It's the Athena Show, live and broadcasting 24 hours a day on all channels.

Stop it. I know you feel you have depression, and you're on meds:

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/01/28/the-depressing-news-about-antidepressants.html

They probably aren't doing a thing for you, except to physically make you tired and give you deleterious side effect. It's another reason you aren't moving forward.

You have one ride on this Ferris Wheel. One shot. You threw your ticket to happy marriage and family in the trash, but miraculously, and even though you don't respect him for it yet, your BH fished it out of the trash and he's holding it out to you.

And you won't get out of your own way. Stop thinking about yourself. Think about him. Think about your kids. Think about flowers soon to bloom outside and the sun in the sky, and try, just for awhile, to be grateful.

I don't doubt that depression is a very real thing. I don't. But you were able to climb out of your depression and screw someone else's husband when the need arose. and it made you feel good about yourself. So imagine what it would feel like to love and be loved by someone? You have that chance in front of you. And you're squandering.

Look down. At your right foot. Stand up. And move it forward. Repeat. Start moving. Make yourself. Get going. Make your life happen.
Originally Posted by Scotland
And then, some short time later, Helo will find someone who will move in with him. And that woman will be playing games with your children. She will be reading them bedtime stories. She will be laughing with them. SHE will be there for all of those moments. Heartbreaking.
You will NOT have the "Fantasy DIVORCE" that you are looking for.

I am frankly quite angry with you right now.

You are sitting here complaining that Helo did nothing during those 2 years to save your marriage, what did YOU do(other than having a HORRIBLE AFFAIR)?

You came on here, you ended your PA(not mentally, but physically) and then you did WHAT? You haven't even taken the time to find a sitter. You've become quite good at making excuses(or actually just ignoring the questions) why you haven't been able to find time for UA. STOP IT.

Come on Athena, you know what needs to be done. JUST DO IT ALREADY.

Emphasis mine. I agree with Scotty, on all counts.

Athena, c'mon, this starts with you. You can do it.
The only way out of situational depression is to change your situation.

I have situational depression, too. Some days are harder than others, but I STILL manage to somehow pick one foot up and put it in front of the other. Because I WANT to change where I am. I don't want to wallow in self-pity. I WANT to escape the depression. That is something you must CHOOSE to do.

Don't sit around and whine "how?" and never do anything. Make a plan. If you need help making a plan, I'm sure there are several people here who are experienced and would be willing to help.

I don't buy that you can't do it. Don't use your depression as an excuse to destroy your children (which, as I said before, is exactly what you're doing).
Originally Posted by athena99
BH and I wrote a big "reboot" plan for me a month or so ago and I followed through for the first week and then lost my focus/control. It was a rigid and unforgiving schedule that as soon as I started to miss a few items, I lost momentum and couldn't get it back. I need to start small and work my way up to bigger accomplishments.

Athena, I have no doubt that your depression is situational, but did you know that for most women the cause of depression is their relationship? If you will dedicate your energy to fixing your marriage, there is a huge chance that it will lift your depression, and make fixing the rest of your life much easier. Reboot your marriage. It's the power cell for your life.

Quit telling us the crap about how you can't wink. That's ridiculous. Just do nice stuff for your husband. You don't have to feel like doing it. Just do it anyway. This is ridiculous. Pick something besides winking if you don't like that.

Dr. Harley used to run a chain of mental health clinics and has counseled many people in depression. He often counsels people to get antidepressants prescribed by their doctors to help them keep their emotions under control while they work a logical plan to save their relationship. Once that is accomplished, they often feel good enough about the situation to stop the anti-depressants.

I really think you could benefit from getting some help from Dr. Harley, either through his radio show (free), through his online program, or from his son Steve or daughter Dr. Jennifer Chalmers at the Marriage Builders coaching center. They have counseled LOTS of people in your situation and could really help you.
Originally Posted by athena99
He did his and shared it with me. I still haven't done mine. Probably because I dread revealing that SF is high on my needs list, it isn't the way I like it, but I'm ok with the current frequency because I don't want it at all.

He has told me he doesn't like criticism (and he takes any comment that doesn't paint him in a perfect light as criticism). So I take the cowards way out and avoid telling him.

Athena, nobody likes criticism. Nobody likes to be judged.

So you learn to phrase things in such a way that they don't make a statement about your husband. Best tips ever:

"I'd like it if you would ..." (For example, "I'd like it if you would have sex with me more often.")
"It bothers me when you ..."
"How would you feel about doing ... ?"

The ENQ is designed to make it possible to express your needs without criticism. Dr. Harley, who designed it, knows full well just how devastating criticism is to marriage.

Here's another thing you should tell your husband that is not a criticism of him:

"Honey, I'd like you to know that I feel like I have a high sex drive."

By the way, I'm a little confused at how some of your posts you express worry that your husband will want to have sex with you, and other posts you mention that one of your problems is your unmet sexual fulfillment need. Does that strike you as a little bit contradictory like it does me?

Quote
Also high on my list is "attractive spouse" and again, know that won't go over well.

Athena, this is criticism of your husband! You are telling us that your husband can't handle hearing that you'd like him to look nice. What a critical thing to say about your husband.
Originally Posted by athena99
Originally Posted by Surfer88
Athena, did you do the EN worksheet recently and share w/ Helo?

Prisca is awesome. Good luck.


He did his and shared it with me. I still haven't done mine. Probably because I dread revealing that SF is high on my needs list, it isn't the way I like it, but I'm ok with the current frequency because I don't want it at all.

He has told me he doesn't like criticism (and he takes any comment that doesn't paint him in a perfect light as criticism). So I take the cowards way out and avoid telling him.

Also high on my list is "attractive spouse" and again, know that won't go over well.

If it makes you feel any better my FWH wasn't happy with how I looked and we weren't having sex the way he wanted. He filled out the EN questionaire and told me all of this. Yes, it hurt. BUT, I had agreed to be open=minded about the answers and I apreciated knowing the truth. I have since lost 20 lbs and we are having SF almost every day the way he likes it. We have reconnected and his fog finally disappeared.

You must do the EN questionaire and tell him how you REALLY feel. It is your only chance at happiness! Trust me, you won't regret it.
Originally Posted by markos
By the way, I'm a little confused at how some of your posts you express worry that your husband will want to have sex with you, and other posts you mention that one of your problems is your unmet sexual fulfillment need. Does that strike you as a little bit contradictory like it does me?


I don't think so. It's not the frequency, but the way in which the need is met. I have a high sex drive for SF in a certain way that he and I have never been good at together. Sex with him is not fulfilling. Or am I missing the point?
Sorry this is so long - I had a lot to say - hopefully it doesn't scare you away.

I�ve been doing some thinking about my situation and I believe I have some clarity. I don�t think it is a justification of my behaviour as much as it is an explanation for me about how I got here. Take it how you will.

I didn�t adjust well to becoming a mom. I had PPD and was frequently overwhelmed by guilt that I wasn�t doing my best. That guilt kept me from taking proper care of myself. Even once I returned to work after our last child, I was extremely stressed out dealing with the children � being over an hour late for work on a consistent basis because daycare dropoff would take 40 min and I�d spend another 20 crying in the car.

At the time, OM was just a close friend and I opened up to him about my problems. He was preparing to become a father for the first time and offered advice to help me work through my stress. I started to let things not get to me as much and take some time for myself. Things probably would have been fine if they would have stayed in this state, but they didn�t.

I started overcompensating and became selfish in my behaviour � with the kids, at work, at home, and in my marriage. Coming in late to work, taking a lot of time for myself, not helping with household chores, and the list goes on. As such, in that selfish state, I felt justified and entitled to have an affair. No excuses, but perhaps an explanation.

That behaviour continued unchanged throughout the A. I would follow my feelings and not my head, with occasional breakdowns due to the guilt of what I had become. I knew I was not being fair to my husband or kids, but I had developed a bad habit and didn�t know how to stop it. I was also afraid of going back to the way things were. I was scared I couldn�t achieve balance.

And that brings me to now. The A is dead, but I really haven�t changed and I still feel the guilt and accompanying depression that my behaviour has caused.

Yesterday�s 2x4s opened my eyes some more. I honestly didn�t think that my feelings could be mistrusted, but once I gave it some thought, I can�t help but see it now. You all told me to be a grownup and I didn�t get what you meant. But I am starting to get it now.

Last night after I pried myself away from the computer, I was physically and mentally exhausted. I collapsed onto the couch and bawled thinking about how I was drowning. BH sat beside me and we talked. It wasn�t easy. We talked about the history I described above and about how difficult change is for me right now. But we also realized something needs to happen.

We are starting small and committing to a regular exercise routine every morning together. My health is suffering and my self-confidence is too, so this seems like a good place to gain some footing. Plus, the time will be good UA and we�ve scheduled it at a time of day to avoid the many scheduling pressures we have introduced into our lives.

We took a little walk outside, got some sunshine and talked about some summer projects we were looking forward to. Later that night, we were doing some reorganizing with our TV and needed to test out the old VCR. I popped in our wedding video. We sat there for over an hour and watched how happy we were that day surrounded by our family and friends. It was really nice.

I seem to have binge freak outs and I am glad you were there to talk me through it. I am also glad that BH was willing to listen and help me figure a way I can work through part of my mess. Things are not perfect, but I am hopeful that some of your comments will continue to resonate with me and affect change.

What I plan to work on most is to make decisions with my head and not with my feelings. I think that one change will affect so many things � my lack of domestic support, my lack of motivation, my selfish attitude, and help me start acting like a grownup.
Originally Posted by hurtagainbydavid
If it makes you feel any better my FWH wasn't happy with how I looked and we weren't having sex the way he wanted. He filled out the EN questionaire and told me all of this. Yes, it hurt. BUT, I had agreed to be open=minded about the answers and I apreciated knowing the truth. I have since lost 20 lbs and we are having SF almost every day the way he likes it. We have reconnected and his fog finally disappeared.

You must do the EN questionaire and tell him how you REALLY feel. It is your only chance at happiness! Trust me, you won't regret it.


Thanks for this. The ENQ really put me in a darned if I do and darned if I don't position. I am hurting him if I tell him how I feel and I am hurting him by not giving him the truth.

But I see that the only way to move forward is to tell him, whether it hurts or not. Otherwise I am wasting my time.
Originally Posted by athena99
Originally Posted by markos
By the way, I'm a little confused at how some of your posts you express worry that your husband will want to have sex with you, and other posts you mention that one of your problems is your unmet sexual fulfillment need. Does that strike you as a little bit contradictory like it does me?


I don't think so. It's not the frequency, but the way in which the need is met. I have a high sex drive for SF in a certain way that he and I have never been good at together. Sex with him is not fulfilling. Or am I missing the point?

Simply tell him how you like it (be secific) and he will do it that way going forward. Of course, if it is something slightly difficult, you may need to coach him until the task is mastered.

While completing the EN questionaire and discussing the kinds of things we like, my FWH and I both realized that we both like the same kind of ...ummm..."kinky" sex. We were married over 10 years and both liked the exact same kinky kind of sex, but we both were too afraid to tell the other person! How ridiculous is that!? Think of how much great sex we could have had if we had just been open from the beginning!

You can't expect him to know what you like if you don't tell him. If he loves you, he will do it the way you lik it, which will then make you happy. You just have to take that first leap of faith.
Originally Posted by markos
Quote
Also high on my list is "attractive spouse" and again, know that won't go over well.

Athena, this is criticism of your husband! You are telling us that your husband can't handle hearing that you'd like him to look nice. What a critical thing to say about your husband.

I know it is, but if you were to ask him how he reacts to any comments that hint that he is not perfect, he would admit that he doesn't handle it well. I am not excusing myself, but explaining that I am not just being mean, I know my husband and I was trying not to hurt him even more.
Originally Posted by athena99
Originally Posted by markos
Quote
Also high on my list is "attractive spouse" and again, know that won't go over well.

Athena, this is criticism of your husband! You are telling us that your husband can't handle hearing that you'd like him to look nice. What a critical thing to say about your husband.

I know it is, but if you were to ask him how he reacts to any comments that hint that he is not perfect, he would admit that he doesn't handle it well. I am not excusing myself, but explaining that I am not just being mean, I know my husband and I was trying not to hurt him even more.

Yes, it will hurt and he will likely not have a good initial reaction (I didn't either). However, if he loves you, he will cool off and then make every effort to make the changes you need. You have to trust his love in you. This will work Athena.
Originally Posted by athena99
I know it is, but if you were to ask him how he reacts to any comments that hint that he is not perfect, he would admit that he doesn't handle it well.

Quit "hinting that he is not perfect" then. It has nothing to do with perfection. It has to do with your own personal preferences. Your unique tastes. Your subjective opinion.

My wife prefers that I wear a beard and mustache. I shaved it all off last year under the mistaken belief that she liked me to shave it all off once in a year for variety. She did not! She told me she'd like me not to do that any more. There's nothing wrong with a man being clean-shaven. It had nothing to do with whether I was "perfect" or not; it has to do with appearance.

Don't say "You look bad." That shows you believe in some kind of objective standard for what looks good and what looks bad. Say "I'd like it if you would grow a beard / shave it off / lose twenty pounds / gain ten pounds / wear a different kind of shirt / work out with weights / have your hair cut more often / have your hair cut in a different style." Other than the weight issue (which almost everybody in the country is sensitive about) none of those hint at any idea of "perfection" or "imperfection." And neither should YOU.

Is weight the issue, by the way?

What specific things would you like changed about his appearance? It is NOT productive to just say you have a high physical attractiveness need and you need him to change; what are your desires?

Quote
I am not excusing myself, but explaining that I am not just being mean, I know my husband and I was trying not to hurt him even more.

If you say you'd like him to switch from sneakers to dress shoes and he gets upset, it is not because you hurt him. Let him pick his own reaction to that.
Originally Posted by markos
Quit "hinting that he is not perfect" then. It has nothing to do with perfection. It has to do with your own personal preferences. Your unique tastes. Your subjective opinion.
I don't bring "perfection" into it - there is no such thing. it is about how he takes criticism, constructive or not. He doesn't respond well to advice or any suggestion that he is not already doing something (in his opinion) perfectly already.

Originally Posted by markos
Is weight the issue, by the way?
No. His weight is fine. I would like him to lift weights and get some muscle. He already shaved his beard after we had a nice chat about that and I can finally kiss him now. I will sit down and consider exactly what else is turning me off physically so we can work to resolve those issues. I will do my ENQ.
Athena, it is great to hear that you realize now that you can do something even if you don't feel like it.

Do you guys have a plan yet to give each other fifteen hours of your undivided attention every week?
Originally Posted by athena99
I would like him to lift weights and get some muscle.

There is nothing wrong with you feeling that way, and nothing wrong with you telling him exactly that, word for word.

Quote
He already shaved his beard after we had a nice chat about that and I can finally kiss him now.

This is great; it sounds to me like he reacts positively when you tell him about a change you would prefer in his appearance.

Remember that as he is working through this program, too, he is going to learn how to do an even better job of listening to and responding to your concerns.

Quote
I will sit down and consider exactly what else is turning me off physically so we can work to resolve those issues. I will do my ENQ.

hurray
Originally Posted by markos
Athena, it is great to hear that you realize now that you can do something even if you don't feel like it.

Do you guys have a plan yet to give each other fifteen hours of your undivided attention every week?


Thanks for your help and support. 2x4s do help sometimes smile

We are working on our plan. More to come!
Originally Posted by athena99
Originally Posted by markos
Quit "hinting that he is not perfect" then. It has nothing to do with perfection. It has to do with your own personal preferences. Your unique tastes. Your subjective opinion.
I don't bring "perfection" into it - there is no such thing. it is about how he takes criticism, constructive or not. He doesn't respond well to advice or any suggestion that he is not already doing something (in his opinion) perfectly already.

Originally Posted by markos
Is weight the issue, by the way?
No. His weight is fine. I would like him to lift weights and get some muscle. He already shaved his beard after we had a nice chat about that and I can finally kiss him now. I will sit down and consider exactly what else is turning me off physically so we can work to resolve those issues. I will do my ENQ.

So glad to hear that you are going to do the ENQ! Don't hold anything back. Put it all out there and then give him some time to digest the information and make changes. You will get what you want out of this, but it will take some time.
Quote
What I plan to work on most is to make decisions with my head and not with my feelings. I think that one change will affect so many things � my lack of domestic support, my lack of motivation, my selfish attitude, and help me start acting like a grownup.
hurray
Athena,

don't have much patience tonight so I will be blunt and see how you handle that. You said
Quote
it is about how he takes criticism, constructive or not. He doesn't respond well to advice or any suggestion that he is not already doing something (in his opinion) perfectly already.
THEN QUIT CRITIZING HIM!!!!

Cheeeeeze, how stupid can you be? Don't make it about him, tell him what YOU like, what YOU want, what YOU can handle. And when he does these things tell him how much you appreciate it.

You have been here a long time and have YET to understand the love bank concept. YOu have left him to take care of home things, himself while you went off and had an affair. YOu have told him you don't love him, you cannot stand to look at him, and that you cannot stand to be near him, and then you say...

He doesn't take critizism well. DUH! Grow up.

The fact that he is still with you is rather amazing, but given that he is quit whinning and actually read the articles here. YOu can get many messages across to people without criticizing people. Try being positive instead of negative.

"Honey, do you know what I would really love for you to try with me? I would really love it if you tried...." And when he does thank him.

You want to feel love???? The surest what to feel love is to give it. You cannot give feelings Athena, but you can give actions, touches, smiles, thank you's, and compliments where they are warrented. YOu give love by your actions, and frankly, you have given very very little for a long time. No wonder you don't "feel" any love. Again, DUH!!!!!

Athena, change your perspectives, your actions, and your goals and you will find what you are looking for and it is very very likely with the man you married and had children with.

Think about it.

God Bless,

JL
Well. Nicely put, JL! Athena, think back to when you were dating your husband, and everything was new and exciting with him. Would you have criticized his actions back then? Or would you have figured out a delicate way to let him know what you need?
Athena,

This is my first post ever, so hopefully you'll get this.. I am new to this site, and I searched for posts that were similar to my situation. I can identify with yours in many ways...

10 years ago I married my H. He was a great guy with many of the qualities that I was looking for.. however, a couple of years after we married, we had sexual problems. I felt that I wasn't attracted to him anymore. I couldn't figure it out, and it bothered me so much. I went to counseling, but that didn't help. I couldn't tell my H b/c I felt so bad. He just figured that I didn't like sex that much.

Miraculously, we had a baby, and I had horrible PPD. Felt like a terrible mother, cried all the time. Went on some AD, and that helped alot. Had a second child but didn't have the PPD as bad. Stayed on meds.

Anyway, had really bad self-esteem issues b/c I felt like a horrible mom and a horrible wife. Unfortunately, I then met what was to become my OM... I had a 2 year A with him. He became my escape from depression, but that was just an illusion. I just didn't know it at the time. At that time, I thought he was my soul mate, b/c he made me feel so good about myself. But I knew what I was doing was wrong. I tried to break it off several times, but I wasn't strong enough....didn't know about MB, and just gave into my cravings of withdrawal.

I am now 7 weeks NC with OM. My H knows about the affair and we're reading MB books. Withdrawal is like h*ll at times, and I have very weak moments but I don't give in. I know that if I were to be with the OM, it wouldn't be the "bliss" that I thought it was. We would not have the relationship we had in our "escape" from our own realities.

More importantly, my H has stood by me through all of this. I don't deserve him, but he loves me so much that he wants to work this all out and keep our family together. Our kids are 5 and 7 now, this would devastate them. Divorce is devastating to children.

Once we started sitting down together and reading His Needs, Her Needs, we were amazed what we discovered about each other. I know it's hard to find time for the UA, but you can be creative with kids... we have "couch time". This is where the family is all in the same room, but kids have to play by themselves while "mommy and daddy" talk on the couch. This lasts for about 20-30 minutes of UA.

Now, back to the sex issue... yes, I still have a problem with that, and I believe that I developed an aversion to sex with my H. I haven't figured out how to deal with that yet; however, the UA is helping my feelings for him, and I'm noticing less aversion. I feel closer to him, and our IC is much better and stronger, creating a good bond between us.

This is a slow process, and it will take a long time. I also want to try to get counseling for my sexual aversion. It may cost a lot of money and/or time.... but you can't put a price tag on your mental health. If your leg was broken, you wouldn't keep walking around on it without seeking medical treatment, right?

Anyway, I wish you the best of luck in your situation, and I hope that your depression starts to lift.

grace, welcome to MarriageBuilders. It's great you found the site, and even better that you and your BH are working the program at home.

I would suggest you start your own thread, and I would also strongly encourage your BH to start a thread as well. That way, you both get tailored advice and support from those who have been on both sides of the equation.

Again, welcome!
Just checking in to see how your marriage is progressing.

God Bless,

Tough~
© Marriage Builders® Forums