I'm hoping some insight can be shed on my horrific situation and maybe shed an ounce of light and hope for my family. My therapists turned me on to the site and I'm grateful to be here and touched by all that I have read. I have since ordered Surviving the Affair for both myself and as a Secret Santa gift for my wife.

D-Day1 was the 3rd Tues in July '10. I had become physical with a young lady who did a ride-a-long with our department at the end of June. I felt like she did all the things my wife didn't, ie, showed me attention, interested in what i did...essentially met my emotional needs. After a while the flirting turned to a more physical nature, but absent of sex. I had confronted my wife and told her that i thought we should divorce as i loved her but wasn't "in love" with her. Boy I was blinded by lust. Divorce was not a new phrase as in the past 5 years it had come up several time. Before D-Day1 I was with the OW when it dawned on me that all I wanted was for my wife to show these things and if so then we could again be happy. I ran home to my wife and told her I wanted to work things out. She was still unaware of this affair that weekend as we took a long drive to Ohio and discussed problems and solutions with our marriage. Things seem to be moving forward though. D-Day came and while I was at training and the OW sent a nonsexual message via Facebook to my account which was open and in front of my wife. When I came home I confessed to my actions, but deliberately tried to hide some details as I felt it only made the situation worse. She found it to be more hurtful the more I was hiding things.

2 years previous to this I had been involved in an EA via texting with a young lady for 2 months. The conversations were not sexual and mostly about my problems with my marriage. We never met up and I broke it off just before Christmas. During that time my wife was suffering from PPD after having our 3rd girl and I was sleeping on the couch. Things became better with us and it wasn't till the summer that she discovered some texts I had not erased. The incident was not punished or with very much consequences and we moved on.

With the current state, I was asked to leave our home. I moved in with a friend, all the while begging for forgiveness, another chance, making promises of change, and badgering her for some kind of sign as to if we were going to remain together or divorce. Her support group was her co-workers who are all divorced and happily remarried and it wasn't long before she too decided divorce was for her. At the news of this I went off the deep end. Almost like throwing my hands up and giving in. I went back to the OW and had sex with her and then moved on. Soon after I began drinking and smoking thinking it would help cope with the pain I felt and the void in my heart. One night I ended up having sex with another woman. Still married, I was committing adultery all because I was still being selfish. This all within a month's time frame.

Issues with the divorce were sometimes cordial and sometimes bitter. I was use to seeing my kids all the time and now she was only granting me the minimum court approved visitation. I began to resent her over that. Then D-Day2 came on November 2, 2010. My wife came over to my rental and let on that she knew there was stuff I was hiding from her. I ended up confessing everything. Including the fact I had gotten into an off-duty incident involving alcohol which resulted with me being placed on administrative leave. This incident happening the day after I was served the divorce papers. Once I confessed to her I confessed to my clergy and my father. My wife showed a lot of compassion and told me that this was day one of me beginning to change.

I thought things would be better that week, but they weren't. I was so hurt and full of guilt, like all those sins were made known unto me and I couldn't look in the mirror, listen to the radio, or watch tv without blaming myself for all I was losing. I made a decision to not see another weekend and was pretty determined to go through with it when i had an unlikely visitor from church. A friend who could see the anguish and shame I felt helped me get through those feelings and turned me back on to my priority of changing my life for me. He showed me my self worth and that Heavenly Father no matter what loves me. I was encouraged to immerse myself in selfless giving and study of the scriptures, something that is very important with my wife and I, but we both neglected for a long time. Immediately I began to see little blessings in my life. With nothing more to hide, I had no reason to be dishonest. I was able to see me kids more and I steered clear of temptation. Unfortunately I did lose my job and at church I am disfellowshipped for 12 months pending a time of repentance. Again though, my goal is to build myself up, change my ways, and be worthy again.

Yet the pain is still largely there. The blame hits daily and I swear i never knew I could cry so much. I think of my wife as the most beautiful woman there is and it kills me to know that I'm losing her. She tells me she feels only indifference towards me. obviously trust is not there and as i've read, trust is love. I reach out for some glimmer of hope, like her telling someone she still loves me, but i don't get that. We are very nice to each other, even sitting together at church for the kids. I was invited over to her family's place for Thanksgiving and only my shame made it awkward. I've realized how little I served her in our 10 years of marriage and most of the time I was selfish and impulsive. I know now how I would treat her and what i would do for her, if only to have her as my wife again.

With all that said, I had a break down yesterday after an out of state friend called and told me about a conversation he had had with my wife over the weekend when she was in town. Basically she told him that she was planning on getting back together with me until the two incidents of infidelity occurred. My heart sank thinking of all the times I asked for her to give me some hope and then when she didn't I gave up and did those things. If only I had just focused on fixing myself at that point rather than trying to fix myself to win her back. All may not be completely lost as she's told me she might date me in 3 years. I wouldn't care if it was 7 years, I'd wait. I just don't know what to do from here. The divorce will be final at the new year, I'm in a a pretty depressive state, and all i want is my wife back. I know there are no magic answers and time heals alot, but I feel pretty desperate for some hope. i believe in miracles and i know our family can be whole again. I'm looking for someone to provide some little insight on what i can do as i continue on this path of change to win my wife back.

TexasBob, what stands out to me is the fact that you have yet to take responsibility for your abusive behavior towards your wife. IMO, she is right to pursue divorce because you are not safe until you GET that you are 100% responsible for your crimes against your family and your wife. Every instance of described adultery is coupled with some perceived failing of your wife, when the problem is YOUR POOR BOUNDARIES AROUND WOMEN. As long as you don't understand that you should not have opposite sex friends and should never allow another woman to meet your need, YOU ARE DANGEROUS.

In other words, your wife's fault.

Another example: Again, your wife's fault.

See how it is always somehow HER fault and not yours? The truth is that you have affairs because you don't know how to behave around women. You allow them to meet your needs and have discussions about your personal life with them. And THEN you blame your wife for your own poor boundaries.

You are not SAFE until you get that. And she is right to pursue divorce.


Another red flag is the self pity and bizarre focus on "your pain." HUH? You have callously abused your wife in the worst way and are crying about the "pain" you incurred in the commission of your crimes? HELLO? You signed on for this, Sir. Your wife and children, your victims, DID NOT.

Your wife has endured about the worst truama that can be committed against a person; it is as traumatic as rape, the death of a child and physical assault. You did that, not once, but numerous times to your wife. And you are concerned about YOUR PAIN? Do you have any understanding of what you have done to your wife and why you are not safe?

Tell her you don't want the divorce. Ask her to put off the divorce. Tell her you have no expectations of her. Tell her you are working on yourself and in time you hope she might want to take you back, but that you don't expect it. Then I would proceed like you were trying to befriend her and then possibly date her again. Keep it light. Engage in conversation. Plan activities to hang out with and without the kids. She's confused right now. Part of her wants to take you back. Part of her is afraid you'll hurt her again. Prove by your actions, through time, that you have changed. Don't put pressure on her to take you back. Just slowly and surely keep chipping away at the wall. Figure out what her emotional needs are and meet the needs she'll let you meet. Figure out what her love busters are and avoid them. I would treat this the same way as working plan A on a WS (except only the carrot of plan A, not the stick). Slowly and surely try and win her back. This may take 6 months to several years, but if this is what you want you need to show determination and patience and not be deterred if things aren't fixed quickly.

Another example where you link your bad behavior to something SHE did. But that is not my main question.

Are you an alcoholic?

And what was the "off duty incident?"

TB, you've demonstrated over and over to your wife that you are not a person she can feel safe with. Why do you suppose that would change now?

You've cheated on her with three - THREE women! You've taken no responsibility for your actions. Actually, you've blamed your WIFE for your actions!

After everything you've done, your BW decides that she wants to divorce, which is absolutely her right. And you're mad at her for forcing you to respect the child visitation schedule for a divorce that YOU have caused? Do you see where this is flawed, self-serving thinking? Why should you resent her because your behavior destroyed your marriage?? There are wayward spouses who have to fight for time with their kids at all.

You may - MAY - be able to recover a relationship with your BW, but I doubt that it result from crying over yourself or getting religion. You, sir, need to do some serious work on bettering yourself and your boundaries. And that's going to take some time.

How often do you drink?

although i believe it's important to advise TexasBob that what he's doing is blaming his wife for his infidelity and not his lack of boundaries...

...BUT on the other hand, I feel it's equally important that TexasBob tells the class his story...what he was feeling and what the OW did for him...as an eye opener to others that surf across this site...

when one spouse starts to neglect the other in meeting emotional needs, this is what happens...the relationship becomes ripe for an affair...

The real lesson here is NOT unmet emotional needs, but a lack of boundaries. I have no doubt that his wife's needs were unmet too, however she did not have an affair. And there is a reason for that. She had appropriate boundaries, he did not. When one is not getting their needs met at home, they should be even more diligent about this, not less.

For a BS to believe that her WS' affair happened because of unmet needs is to put a gun to her head to meet those needs eternally or live in fear of a repeat.

So, no I don't agree that is the lesson here. This poster is already blameshifting, lets not give him MORE ammunition. The lesson here is poor boundaries, period. Giving a blameshifting poster more ammunition to blameshift is counterproductive and not helpful to him or his wife.

Let me put this another way. They are BOTH responsible for the poor state of the marriage; the cheater is 100% responsible for the affair. Dr Harley explained this in a post to me over on the weekend forum:

here

Of course it's important the Bob tell his story, in all of its unvarnished truth. We need absolute truth as a starting point or we're all just spinning our wheels, including Bob.

I don't believe anyone is chastising Bob for telling the truth. It is the wayward content in his story that we are pointing out. That's exactly why we're doing exactly what you're advising in your first paragraph.

Somebody (Mulan, I think) explained this in a way I'll never forget: the marriage was bad, but the betrayed spouse wasn't consulted on what to do about it. They could have chosen together to divorce, they could have chosen together to work on the marriage, they could have chosen together to get help, they could have made lots of choices together. But the decision to have an affair was made alone, by the wayward spouse, without any input on the subject from the betrayed spouse. Thus the decision belongs 100% to the wayward spouse.

So, in Bob's case, there are a lot of ways he could have worked with his wife to address the problem. Instead he chose to address it alone, his way, and now he is suffering some terrible consequences. If he takes responsibility for the actions that led to these consequences, he can become the kind of person who can steer and guide his life to happiness rather than accepting unhappiness forever and blaming it on other people.

1) Awesome info.

2) You are introducing master's-degree level MB to a in incoming freshman, whom the school may not yet have accepted.


Let's hold of on surgical school, and start with some anatomy, shall we?


So, Bob, let's start with the basics.

NC for life, with all 3 women, period. You should draft a NC letter to at least the last woman, and run it by your W for approval.

Opposite sex avoidance plan; do a forum search, and develop one for yourself.

Change of venue; if your work is constantly putting you into temptation's path, change jobs. Change cities, change states.

Total transparency; give your wife total access to telephones, computers, email, etc etc.

Accountability; let her know the schedule of each and every day, and check in several times a day.

Responsibility; in short, own your poop.

While these things are requirements of recovery, Bob has indicated that his D is rolling to completion. So much of this is irrelevant at this time. (Correct me if I'm wrong, Bob.)

I agree that Bob needs to own his own stuff. I also believe that Bob needs to understand how critical it is to establish boundaries as a way of respecting himself and the people around him.

once again, i'm not saying it's not important to bring to TexasBob's attention that his boundaries were weak...BUT Dr. Harley's point in HNHN's book is that a marriage works only when each spouse takes the time to consider the other's needs and strives to meet them...

in TexasBob's case, we don't know the whole story...but he lets the class know what he was feeling...how the OW made him feel, how the OW meet what needs his wife wasn't meeting...this isn't blaming his wife for the affair, it's a fact, a fact Dr. Harley speaks of in his book...the lack of meeting needs leads to extramarital affairs...

spouses can surf across this thread and read it's all TexasBob's fault b/c he has weak boundaries...and what's taken away from that is that regardless if one spouse is neglecting the others needs, that one spouse not having needs meet should have superman morals with boundaries of steel...

the point i'm making is that for others surfing across this thread is to start taking the time to meet each other's needs if you're not already, recognize that each spouse has specific emotional needs that need to be met and when those needs go unmet, the relationship becomes primed for an affair...

and i would agree with Harley Jr. here...there are times and circumstances were EN's may go unmet...could be the result of sickness or the other spouse has to be away from the other spouse...there's many reasons...and in cheating cases as these, there's no excuse to cheat...

Yes, I can see where I look like a blame shifter, but believe me when I saw that at this time that is not the case. I blame myself for everything. I see how selfish I was all through our marriage. From being impulsive to becoming negative about her priority for work as it took time away from ME and the kids. For the record I am not an alcoholic, and this was the first time I had drank. I knew other officers did it as a coping mechanism and I thought it would work for me. I agree that I do need to work on my boundaries with women. The women were all college students and met when I was on the job. I should have known to never discuss my marital issues with any woman other than my wife. I don't blame her for my actions, my point was to illustrate my horrible decisions after certain points along this road. I know that she has cried more and the kids are without a father in the home. Yet to say that I'm not hurting as well is wrong. The guilt, shame, and pain is to me at least some since in accepting responsibility for my actions. I've got a ways to go in changing who I was, but the incidents have humbled me to some degree and I want to change. Before and had I not been caught I think I would just revert to those old actions. Case in point the EA that was swept to the side. So in summary, I and only I committed these grevious sins be my own free will. I was caught and am extremely remorseful over the pain and hurt I've brought to my family. I too am hurting because I know it was my decisions that have brought me to this point. I'm in the process changing my life and hope there is healing and forgiveness for all of us.

We can't control what anonymous surfers picking and choosing random posts are going to think. It's a moot point.

Eee, no. Your logic is oversimplified to the point of being dangerous. (Don't take this poster's comment as gospel, anonymous surfers! )

The lack of meeting needs leads to possible frustration or resentment, maybe. That's as far as you can go. It's what the spouses do at that point that ices the cake.

Some days I get cranky. (Yeah, I know - ME?? ) I may not be the best at meeting my H's need for...whatever. Pick the need. That does NOT give him the right to have an affair. That gives him the right to discuss with me how he's feeling. That ability to honestly talk about what's going on will help to short-circuit any resentment or frustration while we solve the problem.

Now, because I'm a good wife who wants to please her H because that pleases both of us, I will even extend myself to him. "Mr. Bliss, I am in a world of crank right now."

Now I've respected him enough to let him know, honestly, how I'm feeling. And we have an opportunity to solve this together.

Can you see where approaching the lack of EN's in this way would short-circuit an A? Instead of honestly talking with his BW to discuss their needs, Bob chose to lower his protective boundaries have his needs met elsewhere, and finds himself in a predicament today.

So, you can see it's not a problem with needs not being met. It's what Bob decided to do to get his needs met. And that required him to lower his boundaries.

\
I am sure you are hurting. As you should. But you are the rapist who cries he got kicked in the commission of a crime. You volunteered for it, your victim didn't. Focusing on your pain tells me you don't put this in proper perspective. Your victims are bleeding on the floor and yet you cry about your pain. Knock it off. Self pity is counterproductive and distracts you from what is really important: making amends to your victim. It is inappropriate.


And those certain "points" were mentioned as excuses for your actions or they wouldn't have been mentioned. You didn't mention them for no reason. You also probably ate at a fast food on one of those days but you don't say "I ate at McDonalds on.........." as an arbitrary point.

If we can pick up on the blameshifting and self pity, I am sure your victims can too. That is why I am pointing this out. And I really don't think you GET IT. You are in fact even denying that you do it.

That does not give me hope.

allow me to requalify...the lack of meeting needs HABITUAILY, MAY lead to extramarital affairs...

still the point behind Dr. Harley's HNHN's book proves the case here with TexasBob by his own admission in his opening post...

the OW did all the things his wife wasn't doing...showing attention and being interested in what he did...

again, Dr. Harley's theory is that couples need to strive to meet the needs of their spouses to in essence affair proof their marriages...the jist is not about setting "boundaries" to affair proof a marriage...although boundaries are certainly essential in any relationship.

Mr Anderson, could you explain to me then the couples that DrH counsels where the BS actually MEETS ALL of the WS's ENs and the WS has affairs even in THOSE marriages? The commonality is the lack of BOUNDARIES.

Again, my marriage was NOT perfect. My ENs were not being met either and I DID NOT have an affair. Not because no one wanted to hook up with me, but because I didn't have boundaries as weak as my WH. That really IS the reason.

Have you read SAA?

Please don;t distract this poster, or any other poster by saying that it is the BSs fault for the affair because they didn't meet needs. The BS and WS had choices and the WS chose the worst thing that could have done for their marriage.

How would that be a problem?

(Suggestion: start a new thread.)

What you don't seem to GET is that even in the best marriages, where needs are superbly met, affairs occur because the WS has sloppy boundaries. Therefore it is misleading and dangerous to focus on unmet needs as the cause of affairs, THEY ARE NOT. Most marriages have phases where the participants needs are not met and they don't run out and have affairs.

In other words, all the need meetin in the world will not compensate for sloppy boundaries because there is always the chance that someone else can come along and meet those needs BETTER. It happens all the time on this forum. We have numerous affairs here where the WS's needs were being met superbly. They still had an affair.

So lets not focus on the wrong thing here, mranderson. I find your posts very distracting and inappropriate on a thread of a WS who is already blaming his wife for his affair. You are just giving this man more ammunition to continue his irresponsible thinking.

TB, I would suggest that you work on yourself. Learn all that you can. Read all of the material on this site and any of the books by DrH that you can get your hands on.

No one here is going to fault your wife for continuing with the D. There is always a chance that you two could remarry.

Why don't you tell her about this place and ask her if she would come on here. That way she can make the decision for herself with all of the info at hand.

The "jist" very much is about setting boundaries in Surviving an Affair and numerous articles and newsletters on this website. You just haven't read much, which begs the question: why are you disrupting a newcomer's thread on the SAA board when you have not availed yourself of the reading material?

How about letting those of us who have experience and background in this arena help this man?

I've always felt Dr. Harley did a poor job with the subtitle of His Needs, Her Needs.

If you listen to a lot of what Dr. Harley says, he makes clear that two things need to happen to affair proof a marriage. One is the meeting of emotional needs. But the other is the establishment of extreme precautions ("boundaries").

His Needs, Her Needs explains part of that story, the meeting of emotional needs.

But Dr. Harley mentions numerous times (in the radio broadcast, at least) that, for someone who has had an affair, His Needs Her Needs can give the wrong impression: that they had the affair because their needs aren't being met. A better book for such a person to read first is Surviving an Affair, which makes the wayward's responsibility much more clear.

allow me to requalify...the lack of meeting needs HABITUAILY, MAY lead to extramarital affairs...
Only if boundaries are removed and not maintained. Lack of meeting needs can also lead to divorce when the spouse tires of living in a loveless, EN-less M. But that didn't happen here, did it. Nope. Bob chose to disrespect his personal and marital boundaries in order to have an A.

still the point behind Dr. Harley's HNHN's book proves the case here with TexasBob by his own admission in his opening post...

the OW did all the things his wife wasn't doing...showing attention and being interested in what he did...
Why didn't Bob go to his wife instead of some strange woman who obviously disrespects him, his wife, his marriage, and herself? Whatta prize!

again, Dr. Harley's theory is that couples need to strive to meet the needs of their spouses to in essence affair proof their marriages...the jist is not about setting "boundaries" to affair proof a marriage...although boundaries are certainly essential in any relationship.

If one person is meeting their spouse's needs, and that spouse doesn't have boundaries it can still be a quick slide to an A. Or a one-night stand. The M is not affair-proof without boundaries. All it takes is opportunity at that point.

Yes, I have heard him say this. Therefore, someone has only read one book, HNHN, is likely to walk away with a very skewed perception. We have so many waywards that use this as an excuse. It is dangerous thinking because all the need meetin in the world will not compensate for bad boundaries. Establishing sane boundaries has to be the first step of any serious wayward.

So, let me get this straight: there is no excuse to cheat if someone is sick or out of town. Other than that, let the extramarital boinking begin. Is that how you interpret this?

I think this is a fine piece of advice, Bob. You would do well to follow through with this.

Misinterpretation. Riled up?

Restated; sometimes you can't meet needs - being ill, out of town, whatever. This isn't an outright refusal to meet needs, it's a temporary inability. As stated; if this is the reasoning behind "unmet needs" then there is even less excuse comparatively.

Make more sense?

I plan on sharing the site with her. Aside from MelodyLane's charge of being a rapist and a seemingly hate for all cheaters, I gather that I need to focus on strengthing those boundaries, serve her and the kids in any way allowed, and let time go by.

MelodyLane, please understand I'm here because I want change and I want to make amends. At this point the damage has been done, so what good would it do to continue on with who's fault it was leading up to the infidelity? There isn't any point cause ultimately I chose the absolute wrong choice. Help me do what I can to correct me behavior and attempt to bring happiness into her life again.

The good it does is that it allows your victim the opportunity to see you taking absolute and total responsibility for your decision to engage in an adulterous affair (an act that feels like rape) -- without any hint of finger pointing at anyone else.

look, anyone that comes to these boards and admits guilt is going to get a 2x4 **edit**, especially by those who were cheated on...it's just going to happen...

you told your story from your perspective...and it follows Dr, Harley's thinking of how most extramarital affairs begin...we don't know your whole story, you cheated on your wife more than once at that...you allowed the OW to meet your needs, for whatever reason that may be, it happened...learn what you need from this site...try and get your wife to participate, consider phone counseling with the Harley's and get all in in saving your marriage, but know it's going to take time and dedication...

But it's not just about getting 2x4ed.

There's a difference between sorrow and true contrition.

Perhaps TexasBob is genuinely contrite. Only he knows. But when there's the slightest hint at finger pointing or excuses to explain away bad behavior, it makes others wonder about his true repentance and contrition ... others such as his wife, in all likelihood.

People here ARE trying to help him get it right.

Here's a great article:

"Regret, Sorrow and True Contrition: The Reason Some People Feel Badly But Just Keep On Doing Hurtful Things"
http://counsellingresource.com/features/2009/08/10/regret-sorrow-and-true-contrition/

So, TexasBob, where's the evidence? What's your plan of action?

TexasBob, don't you hate people that harm others? If you don't then the problem lies with you, not those with those who hate evil. The equation to a rapist is very valid. What you did to her is WORSE than rape.


And I am trying to help you change. But you can't change until you get honest and start taking accountability for your actions. You have not done that. I am asking you to take an honest look at yourself and clean up your boundaries and stop with the pity party.

I SEE why your wife is reluctant to take you back. If you don't listen to us, you are not likely to get her back.

***********EDIT*************

That's bullcrap. The ones who get 2x4's - BOTH BS'S AND WS' - are those who are foggy. Has butkus to do with admitting guilt.

mranderson, I view you as a distraction and nuisance to this thread and have reported it to the mods.

**********EDIT**************

If you would STOP arguing with a very well respected VET of these boards about WHY affairs happen on a new posters thread you would see that there ARE plans that have been set out.

We are NOT about hand holding around here. We are about learning and growing.

See, MrA, when someone remains foggy, be it BS or WS, there will be no actual recovery from an affair. The marriage that remains after all of this fogginess will NOT be affair proof and will most likely lead to a DIVORCE. We want to give the marriage the BEST chance it has and that would be for BOTH spouses to become DEFOGGED.

mr anderson, why don't you go back and read page 1?



He needs to work on his boundaries.

That's what this entire thread is pointing him to.

Establishing proper boundaries and establishing extraordinary precautions.

Yep. You betcha. Every time. Especially when they come here stating their misdeeds and blaming them on their betrayed spouse!! For crying out loud!! What are you missing, here??

We are not going to soft-sell recovery from an A. Waywards who come here and are still foggy are going to get a whopping dose of reality, either up their ying-yang or in their ears, we're not going to minimalize what they've done.

They will thank us in the end, if they are truly repentent and ready to do what it takes to save their M.

mr. anderson, I don't know your story. Are you a wayward or a betrayed?

ok, hopefully mranderson will stop disrupting this thread so we can get back to business.

TexasBob, your wife should not take you seriously unless and until you take 100% responsibility for your affairs - which are completely unrelated to any need meetin - and take steps to set appropriate boundaries around women. The way you described your background made it very evident that you are still blameshifting and very invested in self pity.

If we can detect it, then I am certain your wife can too.

Whether your marriage ends up with success or failure will depend almost entirely on your willingness and ability to make radical changes. Your lifestyle must become absolutely transparent, holding nothing back. You are in no position to negotiate when it comes to extraordinary precautions, because those precautions are designed to prevent another affair and help your wife feel safe. You must also meet your emotional needs in a way that until now you have failed.

When you can convey that to your wife without blame, without inappropriate self pity, is when she should take notice.

But until you can do that she is right to pursue divorce.

I for one appreciate Mr. Anderson's comments and he's exactly right. MelodyLane, you don't come off as being helpful, more like judgmental. Let me say it again, I have taken full responsibility of my actions. I'm not having a pitty party because I get emotional because I regret those decisions. Now please can we move on to some solution based comments rather than deciding whether I'm repentant enough? I wonder how many individuals in my shoes want to accept responsibility and make things right? I would hope that those of you would openly welcome those admitting wrong looking for help in changing.

Also, this Q&A doesn't relate to infidelity, but Dr. Harley's recommendations may still be helpful to you:

MrAnderson,

Have you done any coaching with the Harleys? The first thing Steve does before he addresses anything regarding meeting ENs/avoiding LBers is that he makes sure the WS accepts 100% responsibility for his own actions and then develops an EP plan (boundaries). I believe he outlines this plan at the end of the infidelity video...

No, you have not accepted responsibility, TexasBob. That is the problem. I can accurately "judge" that you a) do not take responsibility for your adultery and b) have an enormous amount of very inappropriate self pity. I am sure mranderson means well, but he has not even read Surviving an Affair and has no experience here.

That has to be your first step. If I can see this, I can assure you that your wife can too. My suggestion to get honest is very "solution based" and lets keep in mind that I have saved my marriage. You and mranderson have not.

TexasBob, I will NOT let you disrespect MelodyLane. I will let you know that you have jumped on the wrong horse here.

Mr A has NOT helped save Hundreds of marriages from an affair. MelodyLane HAS, HERS INCLUDED. She is a well respected vet and you should actually be HONOURED to have her posting to you.

TB, when you don't like what someone is saying about you, why don't you look within YOURSELF and figure out why. I hope you will re-read the posts that are NOT from MrA and gain some different perspective. You will see that MrA's posts were a huge distraction and led to you being able to have justifications for your affair. There are NONE sir. NONE.

If you remain in this fogginess, I would personally recommend that you wife D you and not look back until you really "get it"

Why did you have numerous affairs?

If your answer has anything to do with what you wrote in your first post, you are much less likely to get your BW onboard and you are at a high risk for another affair, period.

Your mindset, acknowledgement of your own weaknesses and vulenrabilities around women and demonstration of willingness to change based on that acknowledgement IS THE FOUNDATION for the rest of it.

you know what? I think I will step aside and leave you to mranderson. I wish you the best.

Good decision, ML.

As a betrayed wife, I certainly wouldn't spend another second on a husband who wasn't totally contrite. Maybe TB will in time understand that his wife might not want to waste another second on such a husband, either.

No finger pointing. No excuses. No woe is me. No pity party. No blame shifting.

I'm not MelodyLane, but I can tell you that until you are able to review past behaviors with an unbiased eye (not protecting yourself and your choices) you will continue to stumble toward recovering your own self.

The worst advice that we can give you is 'recovery-lite.' You don't want that. You don't deserve it. Would you like nice warm fuzzies, letting you know it's all good? It's NOT. You already know that. You are headed for divorce. Why would we try to make that more comfortable for you?

You have attached yourself to Mr. Anderson because he is requiring little of you. We require you to do some hard work. You get to pick which path. I promise you that recovery-lite promises you heartache. You don't like what MelodyLane is saying? Then you may not be a suitable candidate for recovering your M.

At the end of the day, you get to pick.

What do you pick?
I want you to realize the damage you have caused your BW without attaching a caveat to it. Let's work on that first.

"...he's looking for the plan of action...i'm still waiting for someone to actually take the helm and propose a plan of action with him... "

If YOU have a "plan of action" based upon YOUR experiences with infidelity & Marriage Builders concepts & principles, PRESENT IT!! Don't wait for the others! Let YOUR advice stand or fall based upon your knowledge of MB.

In the meanwhile, do NOT disrupt this thread any further picking apart the advice & suggestions of others!

Lets get back to HELPING!

I guess I'm lost. I thought I was past the sorrow and remorse and was beginning on being contrite. That's what I've been trying to get at. I try all I can and am allowed to make amends with my wife. I know how busy she is so I'll sneak into the house when she's away and clean or fold laundry. I buy small gifts that I have others give her. I make myself available for whatever need she may have. I'm here cause I want to do more. I want to replenish her love bank which is at the bottom of the negative. I admit I'm missing it here and that's what I'm here to gain.

Thanks, JustUss. Our mods never get enough credit.

@TB this quote is wayward babble.

The damage is not only done, but it is continuing. Do you want to save your marriage? Then own the damage that you have done and the damage that is continuing.

The fault for the infidelity is yours. NOT YOUR BETRAYED SPOUSE! You betrayed her. Don't you get it? You are a home-wrecker. You wrecked your own home. Accept it. Own it!

Give us a list of all the things that you did to wreck your marriage. Do it without blaming it on anything but yourself.

Can you do this?

There seems to be a huge amount of silent "conventional wisdom" out there - you know, the stuff "everybody knows" - as in, "everybody knows that if your spouse doesn't give you what you need, you are entitled to look elsewhere for it."

Many, many people do this. And I guess it's just a coincidence that we have a huge divorce rate with countless broken families and broken children and broken ex-spouses.

TexasBob, you seem to be someone who silently believes this "conventional wisdom" and I guess you thought we'd concede that point to you.

Sorry - we've learned better

If someone is not happy in their marriage, they have three choices:

1) Live with it.
2) Fix it.
3) Divorce it.

Option 4, "Keep it but go out and get a little something on the side to make up the difference and sit on the fence and enjoy being both married and single", is not and never has been a viable option.

Why not? For starters, it is unspeakably cruel to both the betrayed spouse and to the children. The children get lied to and neglected and emotionally starved just as much as the betrayed spouse. Sorry - human beings are not pets or collectibles kept around to amuse the cheating spouse when he/she does feel like being with them.

And another reason why not - look at where you are now, TexasBob. Look at where your wife is.

How did Option 4 work for you? Exactly as well as it always works.

I hope you will stay around here, and especially I hope you will send your betrayed wife here to start her own thread (that you stay off of). We could give both of you much support on how to have a much better marriage.

But you will have to stop justifying Option 4 in any way, shape or form if we are to help you or if your betrayed wife is ever in a million years to trust you again.

P.S. Around here, being "judgmental" is not a bad thing. It's a good thing. It means using proper judgment to determine right from wrong.

And you do realize, of course, that whenever someone gives you praise or a compliment they are also being "judgmental". Do you tell them to stop judging you in those cases, too?

Bet ya don't.

I impulsively joined the Marines without hashing out with her 1st.
I chose an MOS that put me in harms way and out training for the first part of our marriage.
I made a clean house a priority over her hobby of cooking.
I let that priority become a stale mate in our relationship.
I became an impulsive spender.
I viewed pornography.
I became unsupportive when after her promotion she didn't make the expected income.
I wrecked her self confidence with my negativity towards her work.
I pushed to move out of our condo to a house we couldn't afford.
I put the priority of working out over time at home.
I acted inappropriately around the opposite sex.
I purchased an old car without telling and hid it.
I carried on the EA until the girl said she was going to hold off until I was divorced....it wasn't me who broke it off.
I continued to view pornography.
I flirted with the younglady who rode in my squad car and eventually had the affair with.
I told my wife I wanted the divorce.
I lied and said there was no other woman.
I lied and said I had done less then what I really had.
I then had sex with this younglady.
I started smoking and drinking.
I then had sex with a friend's ex.
I continued to mislead my wife.
I lost my job over an alcohol related incident because I chose to drink.
I am where I'm at because of my selfishness and my decisions.

Clark Kent, here is a short list.

Mulan, I'm not one to sit on the fence having it both ways. Please, I know texting, emailing, or posting doesn't convey exactly what one feels or means as well as standing before you and looting their heart out, but I wronged the one I love. Treat me as you may so that it's embedded in me on how I should feel. I won't go anywhere, I'm here to save my marriage, however that may be.

Okay. You are owning up to your own poor judgment in your marriage. We are here to help you as best we can.

To repair the damage done and save your family, you start by reading the articles on this site. Especially you read the books *His Needs, Her Needs* and *Surviving an Affair*.

You read the stuff so you'll know what everybody here is talking about when they try to give you advice.

And most of all, you have nothing but protection and empathy towards your betrayed wife.

Remember, TexasBob, she could have written that list, too. And at the end she could have written, "Because he was doing all this and therefore not meeting my emotional needs, I had an affair because that's what can happen in a marriage when your husband doesn't take care of you right."

But she did not do that.

It's not too late. Hang around for a while, start reading, and ask whatever questions you like. We'll be here.

I'm going to shorten your list for you. Are you ready?

YOU INDEPENTENDTLY LED A LIFE. YOUR BW WASN'T ALONG FOR THE RIDE.

You were married. There were TWO of you involved, here. And you have an exhaustive laundry list of independent behaviors that were meant to serve YOU. Not your marriage.

And...here's the great part: YOU SEE THIS. How cool is that!

If. If you're sincere. If you're willing to work the plan. And walk the walk. And take your when necessary.

It's your call, Bob. You get to pick. I'm not saying it's going to save your M. It WILL make you a better person. Someone who is suitable M material.

What do you want to do?

Thank you. I have ordered Surving An Affair. I will get HNHN.

I'm ready!

(and of course, you know that nobody posting here makes a dime off of book sales or anything else on the site. we just recommend the books because we know they will help you. you can get them for free from a library, too, if you don't want to buy them.)

So if I understand it right, you're living apart right now.

There aren't too many parallels between our situations (for instance, I stopped after one Other Woman, and my wife never spoke of D), so I'm not sure what much I have to say for your immediate situation; but for starters, maybe you'd better make a list of all the reasons why you were wrong, and all the reasons you want her back, and give those lists to her. Get on your knees. (I did.) Beg her to take you back.

It's no silver bullet; it's not much more than words, and your words won't buy you much for a long time. But you need a toehold to buy time for your actions to back up your words.

Lay down any pride, beg her for a chance. Then figure out what you can help her with -- stuff around the house, stuff with the kids -- and do it as best you can, to the extent she'll allow. Consider a good counselor who relies on MarriageBuilders, if not the Harleys themselves. Maybe you've sunk a lot of money on lawyers already, but [good] counseling is still a lot cheaper than maintaining two households instead of one. (But make sure it's good, MarriageBuilders counseling. You can't afford bad counseling.)

Beyond this, you're going to have to figure out a way to make her feel safe with you (by unambiguously cutting off any & all contact with any of the other women, forever), and figure out a way to spend plenty of time with your wife.

Read Surviving An Affair. It is a book that our counselor put us onto, which may have saved our marriage. Ask questions. Read everything you can on this site, not with a view toward educating your wife, but with a view toward understanding your own conduct & how to make it better in the future.

Okay. Talk to us again. Here's your first question: How long did you expect to pull off your affair. Did you ever play out in your head how you would explain this tacky mess to your BW? What was your goal?

At first I thought that I would get divorced and have this new life and still have my kids. Then I ran back to my wife because I realized I wanted her more than the affair. So there was initially a short term plan but it changed to wanting her. I messed up again and worse during the separation. No plans of anything but satisfying that urge for sex. There was no connection the the women, and there was no contact afterwords.

I ordered mine one day, it showed up within 48 hrs. They're on it.

What are the beginning and end dates of all your affairs?

Did you send a no contact later to this latest OW?

These aren't steps on the path that you check off as you go and then never revisit.

You'll know you're really starting to get it when you realize that you will never be past the sorrow and remorse.

My FWH says that he grieves about his poor choices and actions to this very day, and always will. He uses his grief as a reminder and as a catalyst to continue to better himself and our M. His terrible decisons of a few years ago will impact him for the rest of his life.

I suspect that you may be thinking similar thoughts about your BW - that she should be past the devastated part and be ready to get back together with you and put this whole pesky affair business in the past. Would that be correct? Do you understand that your infidelity has permanently altered your marital landscape (picture a nuclear blast)?

EA: 10/31/08 - 12/18/08
PA1: 6/27/10 - 8/25/10
D-Day 7/20/2010
PA2: one night, end of September, can't recall.

A no contact letter was never written to any of the three. The EA thing paused over Christmas and then she text me to ask if I was still married. I told her things were good in my marriage and contact was lost. I believe she moved out of state. PA1 and I sat down and I told her I was wrong in what I had done and that I loved my wife. PA2 was a bit harsher and it was through messaging. But the point came across that there was to be no contact. Do you think I should still write the letters and have my wife approve them? If she's told me me she's indifferent to me will she care when I present them to her?

morning TexasBob...yes, not only is the letter a no contact letter between you and the affair partner, i also look at it as a contract between you and your wife...

so are you and your wife talking about reconciliation? is she open to working on the relationship? are both of you living in the same house?
my bet is that she's thinking this is just a ploy to try and win her respect back...and that you really haven't changed...so I wouldn't expect a big earth shattering moment...

a marriage needs two things...trust and respect...and right now she has neither for you, so your job is to earn that trust and respect back and that's going to take a long time...

Sorry, but wrong again, mr anderson.

A healthy marriage needs several things, but trust isn't one of them, according to MB. And let's remember that this is a MB site.

Yes


Yes

But whether she cares is irrelevant.

Even if your W never spoke to you again, remember that it's time to work on YOU.

You are going to do whatever it takes to establish proper boundaries and establish extraordinary precautions in your life, regardless of which woman is a part of it.

Right?

Here is what I would do. Write up the NC letters, but don't send them out. Then I would go to your wife and beg her to just postpone finalizing the divorce. Let her know she does not have to commit to taking you back. Let her know you have no expectations. Give her the NC letters to send out (if she doesn't want to, she doesn't have to, but SHE should be the one sending out the NC letters), change all your contact information, give all the new contact info and passwords for email, computer, voicemail, etc. I would seriously get rid of a Facebook page if you have one. If you stay together, you can create a joint facebook page in the future. Just give it all your information. She'll act like she doesn't care anymore, but it will show her that you appear to be serious. Tell her your goal is to eventually make yourself a person she wants to be with again. Now she still may divorce you, but you still can continue with my next advice.

Read up on plan A. I know it is for cheating spouses, but it is also for disconnected spouses. Figure out her emotionsl needs, and try to meet them. Now, you are going to have to start off lightly with the ones she will allow you to meet, like conversation. Pretend like you are a stranger courting her. Just start chatting her up and compliment her on how she's looking, etc. Eventually you may see she's a bit more receptive. Try and organize fun outings (dates) with her and the kids at first, but hopefully with just her as well. Think of things she likes to do. Does she like art? Is there a new gallery opening up? Would she like a trip to the botannical gardens? Think of things she would like to do and ask her along. Now, don't seem overly needy and kind of let her know that you don't NEED her to come along and sound disappointed if she doesn't. Schedule things with some MALE friends as well (NO FEMALES).

Your biggest problem is that you don't have enough time around her. It is out of your control. You should have NEVER moved out of the house and abandoned your children. That was the stupidest decision you made. She couldn't force you out of the house until after the D was final. Now you have less access to her to get her back, and you lost much of your custodial rights to your children. IF you can eventually find a way back in your house, you need to move back. Try and make it seem like zero expectations and move back into the guest bedroom first. If you are living in the same house, you have a MUCH better chance of saving your marriage as well as keeping other prospective men out of the picture with your wife.

My wife and I live apart, about 4 blocks from eachother. She remains at our house with the kids. I'm in a 3 bedroom rental and have a roommate (male) upstairs. My wife and I are nice to eachother. Sometimes I take things wrong like in a text or conversation as if she might be giving me some hope, but that usually fades. The only talk of reconciliation is from what I heard from a friend when she said she was going to take me back when I had just made out with PA1 until she was told that during separation I was infinite with PA1 and PA2. Now she is telling me maybe in 3 years we can date.

I'll get started on the NC letters. Should I post them here for review?

yes, moving out looks bad in the eyes of the court too...get back in the house asap...but i believe at the time TexasBob was wanting to separate until he realized the grass isn't greener on the other side...

...not infinite, intimate.

No I moved out at her request. I had already figured out the grass wasn't greener. I tried getting back in once and it caused a huge mess. This was when it clued in on me that D was inevitable and I went off the deep in like having a pitty party for myself. This is when the intimacy took place with the 2 women.

What was the date?

Did you move out before both of these:
PA1: 6/27/10 - 8/25/10
D-Day 7/20/2010
PA2: one night, end of September, can't recall.

And you had sex with both of these women?

Why did your wife think you only kissed the first woman? Because you lied to her? How and when did she find out if there was more to it?

I moved out beginning of August. At the time I had not been intimate with the OW. I told my wife I would change all while baggering for an answer on whether we could work things out or she was divorcing me. I was trying to change for her, and not myself see. It was when the consequences of my actions led her to divorce I reverted and was intimate with the OW.

This might be a personal peeve of mine, but could you please stop calling your affair "being intimate" and refer to it as sex?

I can imagine that if your W hears you call it "intimacy" it grates her soul as well.

No, that's a good catch, Delta. Another good descriptive term would be 'rutting'.

[/quote]No, that's a good catch, Delta. Another good descriptive term would be 'rutting'. [/quote]


A lot of 2x4's being swung around here until now, now they're starting to swing not logs but log cabins. IMO.

just curious TexasBob, we're at page 9 now...you been able to formulate a plan through all this?

ooops, so sorry about that.

Bob, by all means, whenever discussing your affairs with your W, be sure to continue to describe your behavior as intimacy. You might even call it making love.

That ought to deposit some coins in her love bank.

Why? Because we refuse to give adultery any quarter? You think his BW has comforting visuals when he refers to his adulterous sex acts as 'being intimate'?
Do you think we're wrong for refusing to sugar-coat this nastiness?

also TexasBob, tell your wife too that per Dr. Harley, you should never trust her...that should deposite a few coins in that LB too...

Look, mr anderson, I don't know what your beef is with MB, but why are you on this forum if you want to dispute MB advice?

I don't have a "beef" with the MB program...i even listen to Dr. Harley and his wife's show when i have the opportunity online and own several of his books...even the therapist we go to speaks highly of the Dr.'s advice...but does that mean I have to believe every word that comes forth from the doctors lips? NO...his plan to reconcile marriages works...that's what I believe in...

*********EDIT***************

And part of his plan is that trusting your spouse is not a good idea.

It's a basic part of his plan.

and for the record, i do believe every marriage should have some level of trust attached to it...i can't imagine living an unhealthy lifestyle staying anxious, being suspicious and second-guessing my wife's every move...that would eventually erode the very foundation of a marriage and you will end up divorcing over nothing...

so i don't box the doctor in by saying i should have no trust whatsoever in my wife...

@Bob -

More wayward babble. You only had sex with other women because she wouldn't do what you wanted. You weren't trying to change anything. You were trying to weasel your way back into your marriage without any consequences.

IMHO, you need to be honest about why you had these affairs.

1. I had an affair.
2. BS decides to divorce.
3. I had another affair.

Do you see your sense of entitlement? Do you see how selfish you are?

After step 2 you should have been doing everything to win your BS back, instead you have another affair. LOL!

mr. anderson, this is absolutely something that both of them need to acknowledge in order to keep their M safe. That 'trust' is what got them into trouble in the first place!

Bob will be able to share this with his wife when they are in recovery and learning how to build a fantastic, affair-proof marriage.

The terminologies surrounding affairs has been gussied-up to protect the guilty. Let's call things by their proper names.

A reminder that the purpose of this forum is to help posters with Marriage Builders concepts. If you cannot do that, then please refrain from posting. Please read our board policy in the announcements section. Marriage Builders policy

Do not disrupt this thread anymore with personal agendas.

I get that, TheRoad. My H used the same term on this forum (intimate) instead of using the word sex when talking about his A, even though he used an entirely different (nasty) term with me.

Trying to help the OP with what to say/not to say to his W.

It is absolutely critical that good posts are seconded where necessary. One of the things I think Bob needs to work on is his perception of his actions. I think he's remorseful but still foggy. It's important to point out things that will retrain his interpretation of his actions.

FWIW, I suspect that Bob used the word 'intimate' as a way of being delicate. That's understandable, but isn't helpful to him. I think Delta's comment may give him some enlightenment. That's a good thing.

And hey, thanks for terming my post as 'GRAND standing'. I thought it was pretty good, myself.

Who cares if she requested it. It was stupid to move out. I just want to make sure you realized that you made a mistake and made your problem worse by moving out. It's a lot easier to fix things when you live together.

The D was NEVER inevitable and it still isn't now. Your wife was just acting like she didn't trust you had changed yet, and you obviously hadn't. If you would have changed then and stayed in your home, you would most likely be recoving right now. For future reference, I don't care if you are in the process of divorce. It's black and white. If you are married, you don't have any intimate conversations or dealing alone with the opposite sex. Period. End of story. There are no shades of gray.

This is where you went wrong, and where you still are going wrong to this day. You needed to stop badgering and pestering to take you back and move on with your marriage. Infidelity is not something you just say, "Okay, things are fine now, you are forgiven." It is something you EARN back over time. Stop focus on getting her to say, "I take you back" and focus on being a person she feels safe with again and wants to be with. You aren't going to be forgiven and taken back for at least 6 months to 2 years of being on your best behavior, meeting her needs, showing you have changed, and expecting NOTHING from her in return. This is your penance for your sins. You are just forgiven without having to earn it. Be patient and determined. Up to this point, you have given up WAY to easily.

This concept is one that so many people misunderstand and is foreign to some in many cases. Society teaches us to 'cleave unto' our spouse and put all of our trust in them. This is wrong, and will continue to be wrong until God stops churning out human beings and starts making robots instead.

From Dr. H:

TB,

At this point, I would use the holidays to your advantage. I would call her up and ask her if she would like to go shopping with you for the kids gifts. While out, take her out to lunch. During the time you are together, DO NOT TALK ABOUT YOUR RELATIONSHIP AT ALL! Talk about things your WW likes to talk about. Does she like to talk politics, gossip, TV, etc? What TV shows does she watch? Watch them too and talk to her about them. Open up with her and tell her something funny that happened to you the other day. Just get her chatting with you. That is meeting a need, and it will make her feel closer to you. Keep doing it, and the cumulative affect after several months might add up.

Go shopping for her and give her a very thoughtful, but not necessarily expensive, gift. Maybe something to do to encourage her cooking hobby. I would also try and spend Christmas with her and the kids. Try and make it a wonderful experience. Again, keep the pressure off, just be the most fun, entertaining, likable person you can possibly be. Act like nothing is wrong. Keep a smile on your face. Fake it until you make it. Then hopefully after some good memories around the holidays, you can talk to her briefly about just putting the divorce on hold for just a bit. No expectations, nothing is changing, just put in on hold for a bit.

I promise you she is not 100% committed to divorce. She's probably 90-95% committed, but give her plenty of reason to cling to the hope of that last 5-10%. Slowly build up that 5-10% up to over 50% and she may just drop the divorce. Keep it up to 90% and she may become intimate with you again. Just keep building on that hope that she has but doesn't want to show you. Keep the pressure off and let her slowly lower her defenses with you again. Don't do anything that would jeopardize your goal and set yourself back, but if you do, don't give up. Just move past it, learn from it, and keep trying. There will be setbacks. It's how you deal with them that is the key. Will you throw a pity party and sleep with more women, or will you be right back fighting the good fight with determination?

I agree. I don't think she's 100% on board with the D. However, the chance is good that she will go through with it. I'm saying that because I have no way of knowing how far along the D is, or how invested in it she has become.

That shouldn't stop you from working on being the best you can be.

There is no downside to this. If she sees the change and decides to try again with you, that's great. If you are unable to recover your M, you are still better for having followed through on your commitment to better yourself.

So, I'm becoming a little confused on what I should and should do to start with. I was going to write out my NC letters and give them to her with begging for her to hold off on the divorce, wanting to make amends and serve her, with no expectations either way.

Or should I ask her to go Christmas shopping for the kids and not discuss our relationship? I'm not confident she'll even go for that.

Last night I left a gift she has asked for on her door step. No card or name as to who it's from.

I will change my description from intimate behavior to sex.

EDIT


STOP!!

mr_a,

you are discussing your issues on this thread and not the issues raised by the OP.

This is not the place for a discussion of your agreement with Dr Harley's programme, your experiences of sexual abuse or your feelings about living in a marriage without trust.

Can you combine the two? I'd say to start with asking her to go shopping. If she says yes, just shop. Don't get into relationship talk. Keep it light.

When you're done shopping, sit down with her somewhere and ask her to please consider holding off on the D. She may likely refuse. Regardless, give her the NC letters and tell her that you would like her to mail them for you.

She's going to be confused and suspicious of your motives. Explain to her that this is important for YOU as well as for her. That you are working on setting healthy boundaries for yourself and this will help you, and for her to see that you are trying to become the man she deserves.

How about "being physical"?

Ok, letters are written and awaiting envelops. In the mean time I'm going to read up on strengthening these boundaries.

Plan

1) Ask her to go Christmas shopping with you for the kids.

2a) If she accepts, chat her up like I said, take her out to lunch/dinner, and at the end of the night, discuss what I say in step 3.

2b) If she doesn't go shopping with you, discuss what I say in step 3 the next time you see her.

3) Tell her that your goal is to be a person she wants to be married to again. Tell her you know you completely screwed things up, you accept total responsibility for it, you are making changes in the hope that one day she'll want to be with you again. Tell her you don't expect her to take you back, you understand she probably doesn't think she ever would, but that will not deter you from your stated goal. Tell her you are not going to pressure her, you have no expectations of her, and that you are willing to wait as long as it takes to win her back. Tell her that you would prefer to hold off moving forward with the divorce in the chance that you might reconcile, but if not, you are still going to act like you are married, even after divorce. There will be no inappropriate relationships with other women, no pity parties where you drink and have any type of relationship with other women, nothing. You want to start things the right way and give her these NC letters to send out because that is the right thing for you to do (she doesn't need to send them out, but she should have the opportunity to should she want it). You let her know your new contact info so that those women could not contact you in the future if they wanted to. You also want her to have all your passwords to your phone, email, etc. so that if she ever were to consider a relationship with you in the future, you are going to be totally transparent. If she gets angry and vents during this conversation, YOU BITE YOUR LIP AND NOD SHAMEFULLY! Basically, you let her know that divorce is not what you want, you want her and the family, and you will do whatever it takes to keep the family together, and you will do all the heavy lifting. You know she loved you before and you are confident you can get that back with some hard work and sacrifice.

4) You do NOT initiate relationship talk again in the future. Only respond carefully if she does. Tread very lightly.

5) Get her a very thoughtful Christmas gift.

6) Figure out what her emotional needs are and try and meet the ones she allows you to meet (conversation, admiration-tell her how good her holiday cooking is, how nice she looks, how good a mother she is, etc.)

7) Figure out what her love busters are and avoid them like the plague.

8) Repeat 6&7 for up to 2 years and slowly make enough love bank deposits so that she falls in love with you again and agrees to reconcile with you. Be patient, and don't slip up.

Post what you think are her emotional needs and love busters and we can help you devise plans to make love bank deposits. Stop feeling sorry for yourself and start believing in your ability to save this.

EDIT: You might want to do step 3 in letter form. If you do it face to face, it might not come out right or sound confrontational. I would craft a letter here first and then give it to her alone with your NC letters, contact information, and passwords.

Allow me to give you the link to one of my favorite MB threads. It concerns the very topic above:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2279757&page=1

Wow! I have been reading this thread in awe. So much of What TB has written could, easily have been written by my H (though, I know he isn't -- the circumstances are slightly different). The things he gained from the OW,...and, eventually coming out of the fog, etc.,not finding her what she was cracked up to be,..,and feeling as if he'd lost me for good.

The part about boundaries is SO true. My H admits to having (and has) weak boundaries. He continued to lie, cheat, during 2FRs,...but, even though he understood this, he would still tell me how it was (and is) such a terrible struggle for him to keep them in check, unless I show him this and such -- hold his hand. Ugh. He would often say he felt like he didn't know who he was anymore,...didn't like himself,...wanting a different life,...torn,...thought he was in a mid-life crisis. Talk about unstable ground.

My perspective became a vigilant matter of self-protection. He was no longer safe. He was an emotional wreck,...depressed,...very erratic (from one day or week to the next),... and very impulsive.

I choose to file for D as a means of protecting my family. I had no idea who this person was, anymore. He felt dangerous to me. And,...the woman he was with, felt dangerous,...bringing him to whole new lows, I had never, in my wildest dreams thought he could go.

He hated seeing the kids on a visitation schedule,...living a mile up the road from us (his loveshack),...driving by every morning (he says, in tears),...watching me mow the lawn and take care of the house as he drove by,....yet, he kept at it with the OW, because he felt it was hopeless,...felt he was worthless,...unwanted by me.

But,...prior to my filing,...he NEVER showed me he was done with her. He NEVER showed me he wanted me or the family. He just gave up. Left us.

Thing is,...I wanted him. I just had to draw the line in the sand,...and state NO MORE! No more other woman,..no more weak boundaries,...no more lies. I deserve better,..we deserve better,...the kids deserve better.

Now,...here's where it turns to the better.

He wrote me asking for a hold on the D. I was floored. I wrote back saying I didn't feel it was safe to do that. Told him,...maybe,...we could see if we could get back together post-D. He asked me what it would take and on what conditions I might be willing. I spelled it out to him,...and we made a 6mo plan, which included being separated, D on hold, court appointed kids visitations and fiances. For three months, we did the things we had on our plan. Including, him giving me access to PW's (while separated). We did the MB worksheets. We got together for nights out (and didn't talk about the A or mundane things). I invited him over for dinner, to watch a movie, he'd help with a home improvement, or do stuff for the kids, a night a week or so. We even took a family vacation!

Unfortunately, I discovered he'd kept her going,...had a sep bank account (which was a violation of the injunction),...and found several emails he'd written to her using a new account.

But, this time, I realized, I had a say in this. I still wanted him,...and I was willing to put up the fight. His saving in this (and where my willingness to do so, came from) was the messages he sent to her while we were doing our new plan, were all saying he wanted her to go away,...but she was awful about it,...and he had a really hard time telling her "no",..his boundaries were so weak, he couldn't do it. He tells me, now, he told her the nice things,....because he wanted to keep her as a "back up plan", in case he couldn't make it work with me. He needed me to stand up and hold his hand. Keep him from "doing the bad things".

Well,...I did just that. But it took him having to REALLY show he wanted me (he did) and to be done with her,...join forces with me,...be a united front to keep her out,...and he did. ...and I asked him if he would be willing to move back home....and he did.

He says, now, he feels I saved him. I'm still shell shocked and scared,...concerned about the boundaries....but, hopeful,...and willing to make improvements WITH him. He knows this is a chance. He knows I can easily put the D back on. I can keep the hold in place for up to two years.

My point is, it took him stepping up and saying he wanted me, setting up the plan for improvement with me, and showing that,..consistently,...slowly,..over days, weeks, months. It also took me saying I was willing to hold his hand,...even though, I was hurt and afraid.

NC letter, access to ALL and any forms of communications, transparency about day-to-day, interest shown in being with me, work with me, proving his intentions and feelings (honestly), showing he has understanding of what hurts he caused, showing remorse, apologizes to not just me, but other family members. Those were huge steps.

Daisy, thank you for sharing that.

So I just asked my wife to join me Christmas shopping for Santa gifts. This was her response:

"I got stocking gifts but otherwise wasn't going to get them anything else. I figure our families are buying them stuff. I told the girl this morning we are going to go shopping for a single mom with a 1 and 4 yr old who have nothing and the gird were ok with using their present money to buy for these poor girls.
It's only fair if u r there to see them open presents u bought them. So u can do more Santa at your home."

Okay, so shopping is out. How about calling her and asking if you could swing by when you're done with your (solo) shopping trip, that you've got something you'd like to give her. (The NC letters, but she doesn't need to know that up front.) Let her pick a time that is convenient for her, when she'll have a few uninterrupted minutes to talk with you.

Bob, it's starting to look that way.

Be aware that this is always going to be more about what you do than what you say, and more about what you do than what you feel. It will almost never be about feeling the right amount of remorse or contrition or whatever, nor about learning to express it properly.

It's about what you do. Focus on what to do.

(Folks here will know the difference and will let you know if you slip up. )

There is healing.
There is forgiveness.
This is possible for all of us. who seek those things.

That does not necessarily mean your marriage will survive.
Can you accept the fact that you may have caused too much damage for the marriage to survive, but there is still hope for you as a person?

I wouldn't view this as rejection. It's more like she's completely oblivious to your intentions. I would definitely craft a letter (from step #3 of my plan) and post it and your NC letters here, and then give them to her ASAP, so your intentions are crystal clear about doing whatever it takes to save your marriage and family. So far over the past 4 months you have vascillated back and forth about wanting to stay married by your actions, and it is time to start putting on a consistent front about what you want. This is where you make your stand. Make it now and continue to steadily fight to win her back. It is a marathon, not a sprint.

From your first post on this thread:



I am conflicted about helping you.
Conflicted because, if your wife says she is "done", I tend to respect that decision from a BW or BH.

Particularly when "I am done" is spoken with emotional indifference.

Still, follow the good advice you've been given.
Shut up the demands of your Taker.
(Your Taker loves and protects you, not your BW)
Listen to your Giver.
(Your Giver loves and protects your wife)
Throw away your expectations.
Be humbled.

It is infuriating when a serial infidel (you, T-Bob) speaks of "trust" in their very first post.
No one with a brain ought to trust you.

And trust is NOT love.
You are incorrect.
Your BW might love you, but it should be a long time (maybe 5 years or longer) before she ought trust you.

That "glimmer of hope" comment .... is your Taker speaking.
Your Taker has expectations.
Hope glimmering and trust coming up with the sun, all that stuff, is you wanting results prior to efforts.

If your wife were to post to us and say : "I am done".
I would support her.
Why?
Because the BETRAYED SPOUSE has that option.
To leave the broken marriage with his/her head held high.
It's her call.

Your job is to behave in such a way that causes her to re-think that decision.

Tb, I wanted to add to what Pep has said(as she pretty much said what I was thinking). You need to understand that any of the actions that you are taking today and in the future should NOT be about getting your BW to stay married to you. They should be about making YOU a better person. You should be sending these 3 OWs a NC letter because you don't want to be in the wayward mindset now or in the future. You should be changing yourself into the best possible person that you can be, for YOU and for any future relationship that you have(be it with your current wife or not).

I understand. The only expectations I have are the ones for myself to change and outwardly show that by my works.

OK then.
This is a good thing.

If "admiration" is in the top 5 of your EN list, how are you going to accept little or no wifely admiration for the coming months?
Will you be able to push yourself forward with MB work ~~~LONG TERM~~~ without getting admired for doing so?

Pepper, I've gone without admiration from her for some time. It's been a month since I've put a good step forward. I'll focus on building good habits and meeting as many EN of her's as I can for as long as she'll allow me. Again, I feel like I've been so selfish throughout our marriage. If admiration is given up in order to do something better, then I think that's a trade off I'm more than willing to accept for the long term.

That's a REALLY good Q to ask.

If I were to ask my H this,...he would probably say this is a giant stumbling block for him. Thus, the reason he seems eager to shove it under the rug...forget, and "move on". Any reminders of ways he hurt me, or wronged me, cause him to see himself poorly,...gives him a negative in the admiration category. It's obvious, when he is so eager to get praises (and does things to get them).

TexasBob -- The admiration should come from inside of you, first. Admire the feeling that you are on a new path, moving forward (not backward) and determined to be a better man and father. It wouldn't be a good idea to go at it with a desperate intention to win her back and get good responses from her too soon. Just do the things you do, with heart felt interest in being good to her because you feel you are good. If you feel you are good,..on a new path,...you will be. Eventually, she'll see that. When you think about it, seeking the rewards outside of yourself is self-defeating,...and (in my H case) the source of the weak boundaries --- it was the "pleasure" he thought filled him up during the affair. But, in the end, it didn't gain him anything with any true lasting or value,...and it lost him the stuff that had that.

While I 'admire' your commitment, I'd suggest you look at this again and revise your idea. Right now you are in 'Giver' mode, willing to make allowances and changes that you feel will help you become a better person (and, of course, you'd like to reconcile with your W.) But you don't adjust EN's at your leisure, they are what they are. You can't say "I think one of my top EN's this week will be...oh, Financial Support, then I'll switch that one out for Domestic Support next week."

Here's the thing: if admiration is one of your top 5 ENs and you give it the boot as a way of being a 'better person', your Taker isn't going to like that. Eventually your Taker will come roaring on the scene, demanding some attention.

Pep asks an important question. Because if admiration IS one of your top 5 needs, and your wife shows no inclination to meet that, how do you think you'll deal with that?

Good point, martialbliss.

I'm interested in this thread, because it's a huge issue in my recovery.

Here's the way, I see it. If he goes at it with a "give to get" attitude and doesn't give to give, eventually, he will give up trying. But, that puts an obligation attached to it for the receiver.

It's as if he's giving a book to someone who really wants a pair of roller skates -- no wow factor -- and he's feeling rejected that his gift wasn't well received (unwanted, even). Or,...if he DOES give her the roller skates, she may be thrilled, but will feel an unspoken obligation to give back something worthy of the same wow factor, but simply can't afford to -- she's broke.

The intention has to be give to give (the thought that counts),...not to get. Eventually, she'll see (and trust) that the intention is solid; safe.

I'm sure the giving up of the EN isn't uncommon for either party in a recovery -- especially, at first.

Think about some of the people with a sex addiction affair trying to get their SF satisfied.

If the affair fulfilled EN's the marriage didn't, I think it's to be expected that the BS won't be so willing to give in that area, unless they feel it's safe to do so. Filling the cups of the other EN's should come first. Otherwise, the BS has a feeling of competition, triggers, and resentment, having to give to these things that the wayward got from the affair. I feel like starting a new thread on this....

I think you're assuming that his BW wants to recover the M, and right now she doesn't. She's not interested in giving him any ENs.

The question is how Bob intends to safeguard his boundaries without some of his needs being met while he works on himself and his personal healing. See, his BW left him after he had an A, and his response almost immediately was to have another A. This is dangerous behavior that he cannot entertain if he wishes to save and recover his M.

I realize this. My WH, did much the same,...sabotaging by giving up,...thinking I was simply "done" with him (and he knew why), by things I said to him (to others), and filing for D. And,..he continued to sabotage, even after I put it on hold. I could just as easily have gone the other way and said, "heck with it",...but, it was the good intentions he was showing (in actions, more than words) that made the difference to me.

Actually, I WANTED to be separated,...and see where it went. I was wanting to be divorced from him and,..maybe,...see about how we could be post-D. He was good with that and we (originally) made a plan to go slow with it, so he could work on himself and give me a chance to work through the trust/danger feelings I had -- which showed caring to me, even though, he really wanted to just come home. Eventually, I saw that his intentions were pro-marriage, pro-me, or pro-family,...and I saw hope. Where as, the affair, and any actions he took with it, were shouting "give up"..."I don't want you or the family" to me.

Wow, is this ever some awesomely good advice. Daisy's earlier long post to you was also a great one.

There have been some most interesting threads here dealing with narcissistic personality disorder (NPD). Now, I'm not saying that you are NPD - mostly because I don't know you well enough and I'm not a doc anyway - but NPD often comes up with a WS whose #1 EN is Admiration.

Why? Because NPDs are attention addicts, pure and simple, the same way alcoholics are booze addicts and crackheads are crack addicts and hoarders are shopping addicts - you get the picture.

Daisy's post really jumped out at me because, like any addict, NPDs try to get ALL of their need for Admiration from outside sources. That leaves them completely empty on the inside, while frantically trying to pour in more and more and more and more of their drug (attention and admiration) from outside sources. But it just pours right through and doesn't stay around, so the addict needs more and more and more and more and more -

Why doesn't it stay around? Because there is no inward source of Admiration to "hold" it there. Because without an inward source, there is no Self-respect, no Self-worth, no Self-validation. Because without those things, the outward Admiration and Attention are empty and unsatisfying.

Now, this doesn't mean that no one should ever seek out admiration and attention from outside sources - not at all. But you've got to have the inward source first, because if you don't then all that attention coming in from the outside just pours right through and leave you even emptier than before.

It will also leave you with extremely poor boundaries as you seek out more and more sources of Attention and Admiration, because you have to be open to any and all sources as you keep trying to fill up that ever-growing emptiness.

Maybe this is more than you were looking for, but having tried to live with someone who started out as a nice normal outgoing guy and later became a full-blown NPD attention addict and sex addict - I've learned more than I was ever looking for, too.


Exactly, exactly, exactly. This was my experience, too. And in my case the marriage was not recovered. His drug meant far too much to him, and still does.

I agree that I do think I'm giving to get something, like a glimpse of her healing a bit. Again this is selfish thinking. I really need to work on unconditional love. I feel so caught up in getting her back that I forget how much wrong I've done. Yes, I get caught up in the pity party, yet I can only imagine the horrible state I've forced on her. Forgive me for being so horrible. I'm really wanting to follow the MB way. How can one make amends while I'm separated without crossing boundaries?

Here is my draft of the letter I was going to give my wife with the NC letters. Open for discussion.

"I'm not sure how to start this letter off to you. So many thoughts are running through my head and the emotions are so sensitive that I get choked up thinking about all that I have broken. I feel that way because I betrayed you. I indulged in selfish acts to gratify myself and gave no thought to my best friend, my wife and our three princesses. I gave away that which was sacred and became a horrible person in the process. I am completely responsible for those actions and bare the guilt and shame for life as a result of it. I know that at this time I cannot repay you for the pain I've caused, for you had no choice in the matter, and are forced to suffer on behalf of me. I am however, determined to make things right so that one day you may feel cared for and protected by me once again. I pray that my actions would with time touch your heart and you may want to be with me again. I'm holding no expectations for your to take me back, and I understand right now you think you never will, but this will not deter me. I do not want a divorce and I do not want a broken family. Again, I am at full fault for where we are at today and the feelings and hardship you face, but I want to make things right. I want to be the husband you deserve and once loved. I will be the man that supports you through all your needs. I want you to know there will be no pressure, nor expectations, and I am determined to be patient and wait as long as needed to win you back.

I would implore you to postpone the divorce proceedings in the chances that we might begin to reconcile. I know the Lord still performs miracles and will do so with our family as he witnesses the effort I put into becoming a better person. If postponing the divorce is unreasonable then I am still going to act as if I were a married man. I will continue to strengthen my boundaries around women, I will conduct myself in a new manner, and there will be no inappropriate relationships or the appearance of such with the opposite sex. I will not give you a reason to doubt me. I've told you I have nothing to hide and that I am an open book. The usernames and passwords were given to you so that you may feel secure in knowing that at any time I am wanting you to check on my progression. More than anything I want my good works to show you that I can change and return the feelings of security and safety to our home. I've included these letters for you to send out. They outline my love for you and the girls and forsake my selfish indulgence with these other women. I have not had contact with either of them for several months, but I want to show you that I intend to cut any and all ties, regardless at what point we are at, and I'm asking them to respect this and not contact me. Divorce is not what I want. I want you, daughter1, daughter2, and daughter3. Again, I require nothing of you as I will do all the heavy lifting in this case for it is I that must repair what I have done. I will do whatever it takes to keep our family together and raise our children in a Celestially bound home. I have felt your love before and I am confident that with hard work and sacrifice that I can restore those feelings , as your husband."

You should remove your daughters' names from that post.

A quick google search revealed your last name (beginning with M), your family's blog with family photos, etc.

Thanks didn't think about that.

I would not recommend you send this letter the way it is written. "dutiful wife" - wow, how romantic!

I think your letter is a good start but needs some editing. My FWH wrote a similar letter which meant a lot to me because I know it was honest and heartfelt.

I'd be careful about certain parts such as "Much like Jacob of old, I am ready to work and wait 7 years or longer to prove myself to you."

Don't say it if you don't mean it and/or can't follow through on it.

Also "selfish acts" rather than "selfish act."

Ditch the dutiful wife part. What do you love about her? What makes her special to you? Tell her.

I'll reread it to give you more feedback, and I'm sure the vets will be along soon to give you some pointers.

---

Careful also with invoking the religious stuff unless you've already been walking the walk. It's too easy to talk the talk ... and in turn look like a hypocrite. I don't know you, so I'm not judging. Just a word of caution.

---

I'd also state specific steps you're taking to change your ways. Example: tell her you've begun learning about how to be a better husband, the husband she deserves, through an organization called Marriage Builders, and you're going to be reading, learning and working hard to apply the principles to you life.

Then do it!!!!!!

TB,

I've been following your thread and much like Pepperband, I'm not real excited helping a wayward lure his BS back into a marriage she has no interest in saving.

Though I am excited at the prospect of you making changes and proceeding to make ammends.

I'm willing to give you some feedback on the latter.

First of all, your letter is very self serving! You are not really taking your wifes feelings into account. IMNSVHO You are proceeding headfirst down another destructive path.

I know you feel broken and crushed, but pouring out your feelings about how broken and crushed you are and how much yaou want your family back deserves no empathy from your wife... And in reality will likely be seen by her as more of the same ole' selfishness.....

I'll be back in a bit...

I think it's pointless and silly for anyone on this forum to decide which M can or can't be saved, should or shouldn't be saved.

Dr. Harley has said the same.

He guides people about how to save their M regardless of the extent of the damage that has already been done.

Bob has acknowledged here and in his letter to his W that their M may not be able to be saved (you may want to state that more clearly in your letter, Bob), but that he is going to make changes in his life regardless.

If his W doesn't want to take him back, of course that's her prerogative.

However, in his first post, Bob wrote "All may not be completely lost as she's told me she might date me in 3 years."

So, let's proceed how Dr. Harley would ... that all may not be completely lost.

I posted the following earlier in this thread, but it bears repeating. Again, it doesn't relate to infidelity, but Dr. Harley's recommendations may still be helpful to you, Bob:

I'm not sure what the laws are in your state, but is legal seperation an option.

I'm with HerPapaBear. Parts of what you wrote were the things I hated hearing from my H,...no matter how heartfelt and sincere they were otherwise. That is -- the pity party stuff. Granted, she needs to hear that you are remorseful, but it needs to come out, not as..."I'm horrible person",...or "I'm worthless,...you shouldn't feel the need to take me back". Because, that says you don't think you are worthy of doing what needs to be done. It still says you aren't safe,...no matter how hard you say you want to be.

The good parts, are where you tell her you will stick it out no matter what,...make improvements, no matter what,...and why. She needs to hear that what you did, you've learned from,..and what you've learned; that it lost you what meant the most to you,...and it wasn't worth what you got out of it.

My H would go off,...saying how guilty he felt,...how he felt worthless,...how afraid he was that he'd lose his dignity if I divorced him,...ACK!....it just felt as if he wanted me to pity HIM. It wasn't gunna happen,...and just made me mad, because he was STILL doing it.

If you really want to touch her where it counts you need to put emphasis on HER pity party. Emphasize what she must be feeling, what she's had to endure,...let her know how much it tears you up, but not have it come out as feeling sorry for yourself. She needs to hear it come from you as a friend would comfort her. She needs to hear how much it would have crushed you if it had been YOU.

See it from her shoes and ask yourself what you would want from you, if the tables were turned. This is important.

Also, whenever he'd go on about how selfish he was, or using the term selfish act (though it's true),...it would make me cringe, because it said to me, he enjoyed it,...he liked it,...at my expense. Better to use the term "mistake"....a big fat, mistake, that you have learned from.

TD,

I'm also curious.... What changes are you willing to make in your life? And Why?

And I don't mean, "be a better husband" type of responses. I'm more interested in hearing some of the details of HOW you will go about becoming a better husband, dad, etc. Also, What steps are you planning/willing to take?

Suppose that your former spouse writes you a sort of Plan B letter, essentially stating "I have no wish to reconcile with you. Please leave me alone." What kind of person persists with reconciliation efforts? I'd tend to say...a mighty selfish one.
IF a BW has an absolute right to divorce a wayward spouse, I think they also have the right to be left alone and not subject to any more pressure.

I dunno - something about this just bugs.

EDIT _ Yes I realize it wuld not be a "Plan B" Letter; I was using that term to denote something very considered and delibrate. Not a Plan FU type thing at all.

TD,

The entire issue I have with your letter is that it is just words!

WORDS, WORDS, WORDS!

You will only make a difference in regards to your future with ACTIONS!

So lets go back to my last post and discuss what actions you are planning/willing to take.....

I agree with you, Kerala. It bugged me, too. Especially when he'd come at it as "I feel awful",...or "I deserve to be "done" with".

What turned it around was his willingness to go along with my wishes (even if those wishes included being left alone) --- it showed he cared about ME, instead of appearing selfish. It took him showing understanding and patience. It took him telling me how much he missed me and what he felt he was losing,..what I meant to him,...and how he's realized I was more valuable than anything he could get (or did get) from the affair person.

I admit I'm rather new to this forum, so my question is sincere:

If someone has no wish to reconcile, isn't that Plan D or Plan FU rather than Plan B?

The unknown to us is exactly where Bob's W is at. Does she have any wish, however remote, to reconcile?

My guess -- and it's only a guess -- is that no matter how much Bob's hurt her and how much she wants to be done with him and his abusive and selfish ways, there's some inkling in her that hopes he will change his ways and be an excellent husband and and excellent live-in father to her three young daughters.

Exactly!

Right, HPB,...just words. In addition to his letter,...or, better yet, IN his letter, he should spell out some of the ways/things he thinks he could do to work with her during a D-hold, to build back their relationship. And get her feedback. Ask her what it would take. If she says no,...not going there, he should come back with, "I will give you what you feel you need,...because I care." In some form.

I want to add,....I was VERY pro-D,...and willing to see what the future brought, being that we would still have to have contact and raise the kids. A marriage only ends on paper in a D. Spiritually, it ends when the vows are broken by an affair. That's the way, I saw it, anyway. Both can be brought back from the dead,...with hope,...and actions.

I have two friends, both with kids; one who has remarried her prev spouse,...and the other, who divorced because of an affair, and they now live together again (for the past five years), but are still divorced,...and they just had a new baby.

What I'm getting at is, there's always some hope to hold onto,...whether or not they D.

HerPapaBear, I know how that sounds. One of my issues since I haven't been around her much is really knowing what she's going through. I don't want that to sound likes it's all about me but I can't imagine her turmoil. I wish I could take it from her. So I shouldn't even talk about what I want but focus on what her needs are and how that is my objective in my efforts to progress as a new man?

I think another issue I'm having when righting that makes this letter seem self centered is my writing style. I've written numerous police reports for work where it's all based on what "I" saw or did. I've got to break that habit here. Bare with me and have faith in my efforts please. Thank you.

Ok, I'm on my iPhone typing and I just read some of Daisy and HPB's posts I missed. As for what I'm doing to change currently, I am seeing a therapists regarding these sexual and spiritual issues. I've been attending an addiction class like 12 steps for pornography. I've increased my study of the scriptures and meet with my Bishop every other week. I was disfellowshipped for a period of 12 months to continue the repentance process. I try to do some form of service a day to break my habit of shelfishness. When my wife needs any thing, usually help watching the kids, I never say I can't. I gave her a ride to the airport the other day. Like I said, I go over and clean the house. I'm reasons several books like the Miricale of Forgiveness and am awaiting Surviving an Affair. Ive distanced myself from yhe opposite sex. I dont go out socially right now, and i got rid of computers in my house. Finally, I'm here. Trying to take it all in.

Ummm. When did you decide to write this letter? I thought you were going to make your last request for her to rethink the D, and give her the NC letters to mail. (Which was pushing it as it was - now a long, cajoling letter??)

Bob, I would suggest that you NOT give her this. Not even a shortened version of it.

You have already expressed your desire to reconcile and she has rebuffed you. However, she has not completely dismissed the idea of reconciling. Remember what she told her friend? That the two of you could maybe date in three years? I think she's waiting to see what your (get ready for it) ACTIONS ARE. Like everyone has been telling you. It's all about your ACTIONS now.

It's going to take some time for her to see a consistently changed man. I'm sorry, but that letter ain't gonna get the job done.

As far as the content of the letter goes, it's too long and ultimately too self-serving. You don't want to leave that impression with her. JMHO.

Maritalbliss,

I recommended the letter because I really don't think his BW knows that he REALLY wants to save the marriage. Afterall, he moved out on his own, he started sleeping around after he got rejected the last time, and he has vascillated back and forth about what he wants. I suggested he tell his BW flat out that he doesn't want the D, he wants her, and there will be no more back and forth. I figured it is easier to say those things in a letter because a letter can be written in advance so he only says the right things, and so that he can deliver the message without it turning into an emotional fight with his BW.

Now, the letter is too long and self-serving. Your BW doesn't care about how broken up you are. Just say you know you wronged her and the kids, you are extremely sorry, and you will do everything in your power to make things right and make her want to be with you again. Then I would continue with the second paragraph about all the things you are currently doing to try and make things right, how you are hoping she might postpone the divorce, you have no expectations of her, and to let you know if there is anything you can do for her. This is not meant to be a romantic love letter. It needs to be sincere, direct, and to the point. If it starts getting syrupy, romantic, talks about your pain, or is overly wordy, she will toss it away without reading it all the way through, and it will put her off even more. It is all about writing to your audience. I would do a second edit and repost it. I would try and have it ready to give to her tomorrow.

Ok, here's letter attempt #2.

"Holly,
I have made terrible mistakes in our marriage. Your wellbeing was not my priority and as a result I have left you in physical turmoil. You have cried more these past few months because of my mistakes than over the course of our 10 year marriage, and it tears me up inside. Every time you�ve been sick it has been due to a decision I have made which have had a negative impact on you. I can�t pretend to imagine the anxiety and stress you feel because I have betrayed you. Even now with every mistake on the table and with nothing to hide, the momentum of pain I�ve caused you continues to roll and effect things like finances, your ability to work, and our children. I want to comfort you through all that you�ve endured, but I know I�m the catalyst to all that hurt. The knots in your stomach or the sleepless nights are not your fault nor do you deserve any of it. I have left you vulnerable and uncared for when you could use loving support the most. When I took your hand and said �Yes� I meant it and never intended to be writing a letter such as this.
You are my best friend. I have lost your trust and trampled on our friendship in the worst ways. I know that I have committed grievous sins and do not want to be this person. I have already begun to take measures that these mistakes not only never happen again, but that I am prepared for a life in which I have the power to take control of the natural man in me and be happy. You deserve to be happy and have a husband who treats you as the special woman you are. I am determined to be that man and as a byproduct of my efforts to completely take control of the natural man, I hope that you will want me once again as your husband. I�m asking you for no promises nor holding you to any expectations. I�m vowing that I will not give up on standing with honor again. I have everything to gain from improving my decision making and becoming selfless, because everything is my family. It�s the family walks and accomplishments we share. It�s being together at Christmas time or traveling together. It�s sharing a coke or eating out. No matter how hard the work is to put in, I will not give up. I�ve learned that what I had with you was better than anything out there. I�ve felt the rush of seeing you again as if we were dating. I understand now that I have weak boundaries around the opposite sex and that my priorities were always self-serving. I�ve been impulsive and impractical, and worse yet, fought you on these issues when you showed compassion and tried to help. These are areas of my life I am taking control of to fight for our marriage. These will not be just words I write to you, but I will show you how badly I want this.
You have every right to divorce me. I have proven myself unworthy, but I want you to know that it is my deepest desire to reconcile our marriage with the help of God and by me fulfilling certain obligations. I sincerely ask that you hold off on the divorce. I�m not going to pressure you to do so, but I am not going to focus on it, but rather put my efforts into mending my wrongs and doing all that you will allow me to do to serve you and the girls. At this time you probably don�t think we would ever get back together, but I pray that I might be able to give you protection and fulfillment once again. Like I said before, I�m holding you to no obligations, but during this time I plan to continue with therapy, ARP meetings, meeting with the Bishop, and Stake President. I will continue to serve others and hopefully get the opportunity to serve you more. I have found a site that has really opened my eyes to my mistakes and the torment I�ve put you through. At the same time I�m learning how to solidly overcome my impulsive behaviors and change myself to a man you would want to be with.
You are a driving force in my life and the greatest mother to our beautiful girls. I�m amazed by your compassion and example as you struggle at my doing. I am with faults and in need of recognizing and correcting them but want nothing more than to do so. Your happiness is my priority and I am willing to do whatever you feel is necessary in order for you to feel that joy again. In an effort to show you my commitment to progressing through this path to becoming your husband, I have enclosed letters to the other women which outline my love for you and our family. It�s been some time since I�ve had any communication with them, but it states I will not have any further contact with them, and request that the do not contact me. No more impulsiveness, no more inappropriate situations with the opposite sex, nothing. I want to be completely transparent in all that I do and that is why I supplied you with my usernames and passwords for you to feel like I have nothing to hide from you and I encourage you to look in at my progress. Holly, divorce is not what I want. A broken family is not what Heavenly Father wants from us. I am the reason for this though and have great determination to change this course. I require nothing from you as I will do all of the heavy lifting here. I know that you loved me before and I am confident that with an extraordinary amount of hard work and faith that I can get that back, as your husband."

TB,

You are not writing prose, you are trying to write something that will BW will be able to read while stomaching all the way through. Your letter sounds like a bad love letter. Short. Direct. To the point.

Dear H,

I am so sorry for all that I have done to hurt you and our children. There is no excuse for my actions, and I am solely responsible for everything that has happened in the past few months. I know what I have done may have irrevocably damaged our marriage beyond repair, but I am going to do everything in my power to make myself the kind of person you would want to be with and feel safe with again. I do not want divorce. I want you and the girls. I want to make that perfectly clear, despite all the signals to the contrary I have given you recently. I know I have done everything wrong the past few months, but I am dedicating myself to do everything right going forward. I don't expect you to take me back, but I am clinging to the hope that one day, we can be a family again. I am willing to do all the heavy lifting.

I am working on doing the right things moving forward. The first step is to write NC letter to the women I betrayed you with. I have written the letters for you to look over and send out if you choose. I also am changing my contact information so they cannot even contact me again if they wanted to. I also want to provide full transparency so that if one day you would choose to reconcile with me, there would be no more secrets. Here are the passwords to my email, phone, computer, etc. I no longer have anything to hide.

I would like to ask you to postpone the divorce (or just move forward with legal separation). Even if you choose to move forward, I am still going to act like a married man in the hopes to one day repair our marriage. I will finally observe proper marital boundaries with other women. No opposite sex friends, no one on one time with members of the opposite sex, no lunches, no alone time, no sharing of personal information, no texts, phone calls, emails or facebook messages. I am focusing on living my life for you and the kids, not just myself anymore.

I hope one day I can be the man you love again, and I am working towards that. If there is anything I can do for you and the kids, do not hesitate to ask. I'm sorry, I miss you and the kids, and I just want you to be happy in the future, regardless of the outcome.

Love,

TB

It was that bad Jim?

If you are going to proceed, I recommend a few changes...... Way toooo wordy and would likely make your W throw up before she got to the points you are trying to say!

TB,

Jim just handed you the letter needed.....

I guess he got tired of seeing you flail around like a fish out of water. <shrug>

(That was well written Jim)

Now that you have the letter you wanted.... How about getting to work on yourself??

I'm still curious....

What changes are you willing to make in your life? And Why?

And I don't mean, "be a better husband" type of responses. I'm more interested in hearing some of the details of HOW you will go about becoming a better person, husband, dad, etc. Also, What steps are you planning/willing to take?

I gotcha, JW, and while I would normally suggest that a repentent WS 'put it all out there' in his attempt to reconcile, he has already shown her actions that have contradicted his words. He is now considered a liar by her. And we always counsel a BS to watch what the WS does, not what he says. His wife doesn't even know us, and she's reacting like a healthy BS - avoiding fancy promises and looking for positive actions. I applaud her for taking care of herself.

I am interested in hearing what TexasBob's actions are in regards to his pornography use. How was it done in the past? Was it on the computer? videos? magazines? How often? How did your BW find out about it? Would you consider yourself a porn addict?

Bob, it's TOO MUCH! You are laying it all out there (nothing bad with being honest, mind you) but this isn't the place to do it!

Consider: You have harmed another human being in the worst possible way. Now you are coming to her, trying to insinuate yourself back into her life. She is going to be reluctant, at best, to consider your pleas.

If you must consider giving her a plea, consider this one:

My dearest BW,
Well, I've certainly messed up the pure thing we began with, didn't I. I cannot tell you how badly I regret my actions that have caused you so much pain and damaged the wonderful marriage we had.

I love you. I love fill in the names of your children. If I could take back what I did, I would in a heartbeat.

You are my precious piece of gold. And I treated you like Fool's Gold. I will regret that forever.

Please reconsider divorce. There is so much good left for us to discover together as a family.

I love you.
Bob

Thank you all for the help. I will respond to how I plan to change, tomorrow. Right now I'm spending some time with my kids at our church's Christmas party.

Hi, Bob. I encourage you to continue with your plan of action for making changes in yourself to be a better man. Whether or not your marriage continues, your kids need a father they can look up to, and count on to put their welfare first in his life. Whether or not your marriage survives, your wife needs for you to be an honorable and dependable man who will be her partner in raising the children you both love.

My WH and I are in recovery now. I stopped our divorce ONE WEEK before the court date. It can be done, but it isn't easy, and it isn't fun. He showed me by his actions how much he had changed. We are slowly beginning to rediscover the feelings we once had for each other, and I feel hopeful for the future.


Realize what you are asking of your wife, Bob. You are asking her to let you get close enough to hurt her again. You are asking her to leave the safety of her emotional detachment, and to once again have feelings for you, either positive or negative. The emotional never never land is the place of safety for a betrayed spouse, and you want her to step back into the storm again. If humility is not your primary emotion, then you need to leave her alone. If you picture what you want to happen, and it involves you being happy and content, then you need to leave her alone, because those are selfish motives.

I wish you the best of luck in your journey of change.

It has become a sleepless night for me and rather than lay here in the dark I thought I might develop a plan for personal change. First and foremost I've begun to lead a gospel centered life. Our religion is very important in our family and I let it fall by the way side for the last 12 years and just went through the motions if you will. I have weekly accountability meetings with my bishop to track progress and work through any hiccups along the way to full fellowship. I've been very impulsive with money and decision making. On my own now I've had to learn thrifty spending, started a small savings account, and I only buy that which I need and not what I want. The pornographic material that I would view was on the computer and I have not brought a computer into my rental. If I need a computer I go to the library where there is no temptation. This has really curbed the problem. I continue to go to an Addiction Recovery Program for the temptation of pornography, which is like 12 steps for AA on a weekly basis. I also see a clinical psychologist. When I'm around my wife I try to be as helpful as possible. Last night after the kids and I went to the Christmas party I put all their coats and shoes away then offered to get them ready for bed. I don't try to linger when I'm around and I only contact her if it regards kids or bills. I know space and time are things she wants so I try and respect that. I'm being very supportive of her work and viewing it as her motivation rather than the thing that took precedence over family. I recognize that this was a selfish thought I held on to and used it to cause contention in the house. The one area I'm just learning about are the boundaries around the opposite sex. I never clued into that but admit it has been an issue. Currently I'm more like a hermit here at the house, but when I do venture out I don't associate with women at places like the gym, or playground when I'm with my kids. I think this is a continued step but right now just setting the mind frame of being aware of when I'm around women and how I talk to them. Like am I flirty or a concerned parent or professional. I think less interaction the better for now. When I talk to my wife it's nothing but words of kindness. I don't get mad or upset regarding the divorce realizing that this is my doing. Sprouting roots of fear by being upset is not what I want to potray to her or the kids. I show an ever more increase in love for my girls during this separation. Like I said, I make myself available for my wife whenever she needs. Often our visitation schedule has become obsolete because of her need to add days so she can go here or there for work. She told me last week in an email that she does see progress in my efforts and therefore is more trusting with me to have the kids more than the minimums set by the schedule. I've taken a few gifts to her, the most recent though I left as a secret Santa gift. I plan to continue with all of these building blocks regardless of the outcome as I will always have my children and myself to take care of.

With that said, this list may not be what you were expecting me to post and I'm aware of that. I may have missed the mark as I am hard pressed thinking how I can change my dealings so that I meet my wife's ENs. This is why I am here and why I'm soaking up everyone's knowledge and experience. I know that you have experience with some things that i must impliment that ive missed as part of a plan and i welcome all suggestions eagerly. Again, words can not express how appreciative I am for everyone's care and concern for my family that you would help me take steps to becoming the man I should have been all along.

Okay, this is a good list. You're working hard, Bob, and it's noticeable.

One suggestion: Do not tell you wife what you're doing. You will defeat your goal. She has to realize what you're doing, not be presented with it by you.

Had some opportunities to serve my W today by shoveling the drive way and sidewalk this morning and just a minute ago when blizzard conditions forced her and the kids off the road. What was comforting was I was the first she called. The kids asked her if she was calling 911, she said no, I'm calling your dad. Everyone is safe at home.

@TB -

What are you doing about the admiration need that you have. Have you been focusing on yourself with this?

I think that's a good start Bob. Feel admiration in knowing she called you first.

Doing selfless acts like that is a good start, but it has to become commonplace. She has to see change in action. Mel's letter idea is a good start. Maybe even that with some flowers attached and some cookies home baked for your kids accompanying that sweet plan a type letter?

I would talk to a MB counselor on getting a recovery plan in place for you, let your bw find out about your plan and how you and A PROFESSIONAL are working on it, and how you are actively seeking help for your lack of control with emotions, sexual behaviors, and even responsible choices w/finances.

Faith without works is empty. Show her faith and works. You can have all the faith, be a Christian in spirit, but if there is no fruit to that faith and works accompanying it, it's meaningless to a woman who has lost faith in your marriage and lost faith in you being a husband.

Well I composed the letter, combining the revised draft that was shortened down and the plea that was submitted. I gave it to her along with the NC letters ready to be mailed the night I rescued her and the kids out of the ditch. Nothing has been said about it, but I noticed yesterday her texts were all on the business end. She asked yesterday if I want the kids today so I'll see her this morning and tonight. I doubt it will be discussed around the kids. Actions are my tool now, as they will speak louder than my words.

Clark Kent, to answer your question about admiration, I really don't know. While I did feel good about getting the call, I knew she would put the event on Facebook, even used the picture I took of her car in the ditch the next morning, but no mention of me helping. I had offered my car to her in the meantime and to help arrange and even pay to pull it out but didn't hear back from her. On my way to an appointment I came up to the stuck vehicle and my neighbor's truck as he tried to pull it out. He was alone so I thought I'd stop and help. We got it out and she thanked me but was sure to put him in her Facebook post. So ya, it's eating me up. I know I'm the bottom of the barel and I should take my scraps and like it, but I guess that's what you mean when you asked that. So, I haven't found anything to substitute and meet that EN.

@TexasBob -

Can you do this for two-three years?

You've started Plan A?

If so, what are her top 5 ENs? In your position which of the 4 intimate needs are/will you be able to meet?

@TexasBob -

You know that your wife is in Plan Divorce. If she called you for help, you should be singing and rejoicing. I would not look at it being the bottom of the barrel, getting the scraps. Your BS in Plan D gave you one of the greatest gifts. She was telling you that she was vulnerable and needed help. And you did a good job by protecting her and providing. Your admiration should come from this not some dumb azz post on Facebook.

I can't stress this enough. She is in Plan D and yet she called you for help.

It seems to me that your Taker is involved here. This might be rhetorical, but why didn't you tell her that in order for you to help her then she must document it on Facebook. Wouldn't that have been more honest and open? You must understand that you must be able to do these things (GIVER) without any expectations of any return.


IMHO, this is nasty and what lead you to your affairs. ENs are met by the people in our lives. There should only be one person meeting your intimate needs, YOUR WIFE.

There can be no substitute!

Hello TexasBob,

Having read your thread, I just wanted to add a few words of encouragement.
I am a BW and it is no longer possible for me to reconcile with WH. Too much damage has been done by now, not that he tried or will ever try. But if he did, reconciliation is impossible, even for the sake of our 4 little girls. I just wanted to add a perspective of a BW. I wanted to say something about the list of things you did to her in the past. When WH had his A and treated me so badly I started to look carefully at his past actions and I realised that his behaviour even before the A was not good. However, when you love someone you see them through a soft-focus filter and tend to minimise their actions. Now that the love is no longer there, it's as if I can see him now in the harsh light of day and I realise that he is not a good man to be married to.
I don't think your wife is there. I think she has not closed that door. She wants to believe you are capable of change but her logical mind is telling her she's mad. You know the definition of madness - doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
People are asking very good questions about your stamina and if you are pacing yourself appropriately for this long race. If I may say, your wife is doing you a favour by making you work harder, by not allowing you back in too soon. You need to become a man worth being married to and that won't happen overnight. You are trying to change the habits of a lifetime and don't underestimate the effort that will require. Taking the time to ensure that change is real and enduring is a good thing for you so maybe you should tell yourself this if you feel yourself getting impatient and resentful.
But on another note, I just want to encourage you in your goal. You have 3 little girls and whether or not you stay married to their mother you will ALWAYS be their father and always be their number 1 role model of what a man is and how he should behave. Behave in a way that you would like the husbands of your daughters to behave and they will come to expect that kind of standard of any man they will be involved with.
I want to wish you the very best of luck in your efforts.

@tully -

Good post!


I was trying to think what to say concerning this. His standards for himself needs to be very high.

You are right on.

Okay, you gave her the letter and she started acting differently. That means she read your intentions and put her wall up to defend herself from getting hurt again. It's a natural reaction. It's your job now in the coming months/years to slowly chip down that wall. It may seem overwhelming now, but you'll never chip it down if you don't start now and keep at it.

As for the facebook post, who give a hoot? It's a GD facebook post. Do you need to look good in front of her friends. Right now, she would probably hide anything good your do, or any intention of getting back with you because her current support group is probably counseling her to be done with you. She doesn't want to alienate herself from her support group.

As far as filling the void of admiration, how about getting some self-confidence? Why do you need constant validation. Do something that will make you feel good about yourself like going to the gym and getting in shape or volunteering for charity.

Bob - this is the kind of stuff that leads to narcissism (also known as being an attention addict).

Did you only go help your wife because you thought you'd get strokes, attention and reward for it?

Or did you do it because it would help your wife (whom you claim to love), because it might be a step towards healing your marriage (which you claim to want) and - most important of all - because it would help YOU to feel inwardly good about YOU.

This kind of thing sets off red flags for me because my XWH, though he started out a wonderful man, allowed himself to become a full-blown narcissist and sex addict once he started working in a large corporate environment and started climbing the ladder of success there. He was like a crackhead going to work in a crackhouse every day.

It wasn't long before his every action with everyone, especially with his wife and kids, had a price tag - and that price tag was always, "What's in it for me? How much attention and reward and public stroking can I get from this?"

Doing something simply because it was the right thing to do - with the reward being *that he could feel good about himself* - is not something he understands or wants.

Only outside strokes and attention work for him. Feeling good from the *inside* simply from doing the right thing is an entirely foreign concept.

It's also the hallmark of narcissism.

That's why you worry me.

Trying to live with a narcissist is a sickening reality. You realize that they care nothing about you personally - they only see you as a source of attention and strokes. Yes, if my car had been stuck in a ditch and I called XWH, he might have helped but *only* if he knew he would get huge public attention and stroking for it from me and from everybody else who heard about it, especially if they were female.

That's why I have not spoken to him in 2-1/2 years. I cannot stand the thought of trying to interact with him again because I know how it would be. I'd rather shove my hand down the garbage disposal. It would be less painful.

Now, I have no problem with someone's top EN being Admiration. But you've got to understand - Admiration must first come from *inside yourself*. That's what is meant by Self-respect, Self-worth and Self-validation. This is what is meant by "staying grounded".

Once you've got that, then Admiration from outside sources will be enjoyed but it will not become an overwhelming drug.

If it doesn't start from within, no amount of Admiration will ever be enough no matter how hard you try to find it from outside. (How did that work for you? That's what led you to your affair, you know. XWH did the same thing, but too much was never enough.)

You worry me because of this.

What do you do that allows *you* to feel good about *yourself* from the *inside*?

Yes. If you need constant validation from outside sources, it means you have nothing validating you from the inside. What can you do that lets YOU feel good about YOU?

Once you do that, the outside sources of Admiration will mean far more because they will be genuine.

There is an old saying: "Character is what you do in the dark."

It's usually further explained as, "If you knew for certain you would not be caught, would you steal money, steal property, harm someone you don't like, etc. etc."

Someone with Self-respect and Self-worth would answer "No, because I would know even if no one else did, and I'd feel like crap about myself and I don't want to feel that way."

A narcissist would answer, "F--- yeah! If I don't get caught, then why not?"

The other side of the Character question is this: "If you knew for certain that you would not be rewarded, praised or acknowledged in any way, would you still do something good and kind for someone else?"

A person with Self-respect and Self-worth would answer, "Of course I would, because I'd still feel good about myself for helping someone else."

A narcissist would answer, "F---, no. Why would I? What's in it for me?"

Here is a very interesting MB thread concerning narcissism (also called Narcissistic Personality Disorder, or NPD):

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2336925&page=1

Exactly. If you do things for people solely for the reward you expect to get *from them*, then for god's sake be honest with them and tell them that that's why you're doing it.

Otherwise, they will entirely misinterpret your actions and will think you are doing these things because you care.

And their world (and yours) is going to be blown wide open when they find out your actions had a price tag attached and THAT's why you were doing them.

In all seriousness, if that is the kind of life you want then you have every right to have it. In all seriousness, there are plenty of women out there who won't care if what you do for them is for selfish reasons or not. In turn, they will blow equally selfish smoke up your butt all day and all night and you can all be very happy together in a narcissistic little world.

But people like your wife WILL care. They do NOT want any man doing things for them because he expects payment in the form of strokes, attention, flirting, sex or whatever.

She will want you to do things for her because you love her and she loves you and you BOTH take care of each other - because THAT is the real reward and anything else is just narcissistic smoke.

I've lived through this. Can you tell?

I do have a problem with needing approval from others. It's how I've been all my life. The outgoing, class clown type, voted most talkative in highschool out of a class of 800. I see the struggle now because I'm looking for that approval from the person I'm not going to get it from. I've got to learn to try and meet needs she allows without expecting anything in return. I'm at a lose on what I can do to meet that need at this point. I do go to the gym, but I always felt it was to stay attractive for her. This and the weak boundaries with the opposite sex is what I just discussed with couseler the last hour. Changing this behavior that I've had for so long is not an easy task, hint why everyone has suggested the 2 to 3 year stamina. I see that, but as I learn how I can love myself and meet those needs constructively then hopefully I'll be able to translate the good to unconditional acts toward my wife. I'm willing to go beyond what's expected for this family.

Bob,

I relate to your need for admiration. We talked about this in a Bible study regarding why people go to church or profess their faith loudly. Is to to share the good news or to look good?

I question my motives all the time now. Am I doing this because it is the right thing or because I will get kudos? I almost didn't get up to pray this Sunday because I knew I looked good (had on a new very flattering dress) and I wasn't sure if I was going up to truly pray or because I knew I looked good. I reminded myself that last week I was unable to go up because I had been stuck in the middle of a large group of people so I did but only after a lot of thought.

Do the right thing because it is the right thing. Examine your motives. You'll figure it out and be better for it whatever the outcome with your marriage. It is very freeing. My BH's response still matters of course but it doesn't sway my course. I don't have to spin anything anymore...just be the best me I can be.

When you need help interpreting your motives...come here. As you can see, you'll get plenty of "interpretations" :-)

Mulan: I see your point. You know I went out to get her and the kids when she called because I would drop everything for their safety and because they were in a frightening predicament. I only offered to get the tow and pay for it cause I thought it would help. Never did I think about how it would look to her or anyone else going into it. It seems those feelings came later. And everyone's right, it's stupid FB!

Also - be the absolute best escpecially around the kids. They are great sources to convey information about you to your wife. Set the example for them now of the man you want to be. The kids will pick up on that.

You can do this. If even only for yourself and your children. It's early on in the fight so let it go and work on yourself. Stay busy wherever and whenever. Do charity work. Do not tell your wife any of this. If you do enough work your good deeds will get back to your wife.

Do it for no other reason than pleasing yourself. Don't look for praise.

Good Luck and keep listening to the vets here.

Have you considered that working out is to directly benefit you? Working out should be something good that you do for YOU. The side benefit is that your wife appreciates your desire to stay fit.

This post is in the same vein as the others regarding you doing something good for what's in it for you. "I'm working out - notice me!" KWIM?

I'm not familiar with KWIM.

KNOW WHAT I MEAN

Nesre

Texas Bob, this is another example of WS thinking. Young lady? Really?

Just being factual.

Received "Surving An Affair" today. I'll get started tonight on it.

So I just finished reading "Surviving an Affair". I've determined that my 5 most important emotional needs are:
-sexual fulfillment
-admiration
-affection
-domestic support
-physical attractiveness

I understand I failed at meeting her ENs and unless I can find ways to meet mine, I'm doomed to repeat my mistakes.

Question: is this book something I should hand off to my wife at this point? I think dropping in the mail box would be futile once she reads about NC letters. At that point she'll know it's from me, having received mine a couple days ago.

Also, I believe my wife knows I was the secret Santa who left the gift on her door step last week. She came over last night to pick up the children wearing the gift. This to me was a good sign as I figured the gift would have been discarded had her feelings of resentment been so that gifts from me were repulsive or unwanted.

"Young desperate female co-adulteror" is more accurately factual.
Also, less flattering toward both of the adulterers.

I would say no, not at this point. She is not interested right now in working on a relationship with you and she may interpret this as an effort on your part to get her to change.
Of course both partners need to work on a marriage to make it a good one but your focus right now is a step or two before that - it's to convince her that you are a man worth spending that effort on.

@TexasBob -

Do you understand why these 2x4s are coming your way?

Two reasons. One because you and your APs were disgusting. You were supposed to protect your marriage. You did not. You allowed another person to HARM your wife.

Second reason is by using a language to describe these people (yourself included) in any positive light shows us that there is very little remorse for what you did to your marriage. By you using words like "young lady" instead of 'destroyer of marriages" just really shows your wayward thinking.

Point taken Pepperband.

In several manners.

Bob, you say college students on ride-alongs? Are you a police officer? So in a position of authority, you took advantage of a young student?

Even if you were a single man, that behavior is completely unethical.

I hope part of your plan is no more ride-alongs, EVER.

I would leave it sitting out in a place where your BW can see it the next time she comes over. Or, maybe leave it sitting in the car when you make an exchange next time. That way she knows you are reading it and can ask to look at it if she is interested.

Sorry - we're being factual, too. If this woman was banging a married police office, she might be a female but she is no lady. The correct term is "badge bunny", isn't it?

@TexasBob -

What are your BWs 5 most important needs?

Have you read up on the 4 Intimate Needs?


You missed a wonderful opportunity to meet one of the intimate needs, Conversation. I forget who it was (MelodyLane/Pepperband), said the first step to getting to Open/Honest is inquiry. Instead of conjecturing about her feelings, why didn't you ask her?

"You look really good in that [gift] {affection}! Do you like it?"

This is disingenuous and I think her bs detector would consider it a prop immediately.

Read it yourself, Bob. Then hang on to it. The day may come when she'll ask you where all of your new-found confidence and self-commitment have come from. Then you can show her the book.

Remember, right now you're doing this work to help YOU.

Exactly.

In fact, Bob... be ready for even your genuine attempts to keep ringing her bovine excrement alarm bells. You have invalidated your entire relationship and marital history in her mind and heart. You have destroyed her image of you.

Time, patience, and consistency are your armaments now.

Bob, I am not very good at advice on these boards. But I would like to mention that i commend you for your efforts to better yourself. I know some of the 2x4s you been getting must be hard and how awful you must feel with your guilt and how awful your wife must feel, but stay at it and keep moving forward. I think your doing great considering your circumstances. If nothing else ... you will be a better person in the end even, if you dont get your wife back.

Good Luck!

MrNiceGuy, I appreciate your encouragement as well as others who have voiced it. I know that I am the sole perpetrator of my wife's pain because I betrayed her. I realize that on the thread I don't always say the right things or come off as other members would expect a repenting soul. My whole heart is in this time of gaining an understanding of the thought and actions encompassing what I've done and in taking steps to change habits with the hope I can save my family. The 2x4s are warranted and those who swing them have every right. I welcome all comments because everyone else has experience on the matter and I can only progress from the wisdom. So thank you everyone, and yes, I'm kicking myself for not complimenting her on her outfit last night.

TexasBob,

If your wife chooses to divorce you, please respect her decision and don't try to put YOUR hopes of marital recovery on her. You have inflicted wounds on your BW that will take her years to recover from...she does not need more weight thrown on top of her because you now want to win her back after you slaughtered her. Do right by her because it is the right thing to do regardless of the consequences to yourself.

I sincerely hope you get yourself together. You may still be able to recover your M but so long as you are an unsafe wayward, your wife should proceed with divorce if she chooses.

@TexasBob -

The reason I mentioned the Open/Honest Inquiry and meeting ENs is not for the payoff you can get from doing these with your BETRAYED SPOUSE, but so that you can start to empathize with what your wife has gone through and is going through.

As a wayward you are a person that is thoughtless and selfish. Being able to meet needs of others means that you need to be thoughtful and willing to give.

I must mention that I'm not trying to help you to recover your marriage, but to help you recover.

So I reiterate again, what is your BS top 5 Ens? What is your children top 5 ENs?

It is okay to make mistakes, you're wayward! It is the nature of waywards to make mistakes. IMHO, there is no other worst mistake than to have an affair. So the minute you became wayward it was inevitable to continue making mistakes. LOL!

TexasBob, you are on the right path. I don't normally contribute to wayward threads because I'm not sure if I can help but I see hope here. Of course you are not there yet but I think you might have what it takes to make it.
As for your BS's ENs I would say that the one thing you can really help her with is the children. I know very well how hard it is to work and look after 3 small children. And there is nobody she can trust with the girls like you because there is nobody who loves them like you do. Not only are you providing FC and DS but also you are showing support for her career. Offer but don't impose your help. The fact that you are available at all times to help will show clearly your priorities.
Do fun things with the girls. Take them for bicycle rides. If one of them is too small to cycle, get a seat for the back of your bicycle. I know mine loved that.

TB,
Another thought. Children love routines. It reassures them. Find something nice to do and do it consistently every week eg every Saturday afternoon Daddy takes us for a cycle and we stop for a little picnic at the park. Or he takes us swimming and after we to to the shop and get to choose a treat each afterwards. Make sure it's something you enjoy too so that it's a shared moment of pleasure, not something you are doing for their sake. They will sense that. After you've done it for a while you could maybe extend a casual invitation to BW to join you.

TexasBob,

Thanks for your story, I just read it today. I am on the front end of this story. It has given me the hope of continuing to do the right things without falling into the dark place that I was for so long.

In the first week after confessing to my wife, and to the Bishop, I really felt like dying. I too had resolved to do it...I could see so clearly the pain I had caused my wife, and how deeply I had betrayed her. Fortunately, after getting spiritually and emotionally in the right place, I realized I needed to make myself better - set better boundaries with women, get rid of pride - regardless of what my wife decided about divorce. Speaking form the religious side, restitution is part of the repentance process. In a case like this it is extremely difficult to restore what was lost. But for me, and this may not be what comes to everyone's mind, I realized that the restitution in this case wouldn't be made by my actions, but rather restoring myself into a stronger version of me, with all the qualities that I expected of myself, and that my wife expected of me. It will be a long road, but it will be worth it. I hope you can stay on the right path, and come to realize that as long as you continue to choose the right, and not let yourself get dragged down into depression, you should come to peace with whatever decisions your wife may make in the future.

Tully must not live in the frigid north where our bikes are put away for the winter.

Snowmen, snow balls, snow angels, sledding. Same thing - her good advice translated to northern speak.

Edit: oops. I forgot your name was TexasBob. I was thinking your ditch story included snow/ice.

No, Delta, I don't, although we are going through an exceptional cold spell at the moment. But you got the kind of thing I meant anyway

Tully, that's a great idea. Again we've been seperated now for 6 months and it's been 2 months on the new path. The kids and I are together often and I think bowling with the bumpers and ramps for kids would be fun as a routine activity.

Delta, I'm in your shoes. Although screen name says Texas, we are in IL. Last night's 5 inches of snow gave me an opprotunity to shovel her driveway and a few of my old neighbors. So bowling could be injured year around.

seriously_WS, thank you for your support and I'll keep you in my prayers with your efforts.

Texas, I think you are on the right path right now, but its going to take a long time. Since you have finished reading SAA in a day, you have identified your EN's. Now can you identify for us your wifes En's? It is uber important that you try your best to recognise her EN's and fulfill them.

Also check out the LB's. What are your major LB's that you commit against your wife? Identify and fix those also.

The thing about EN's is that they are not something you can fulfill for yourself. only others can fill your EN's. The number one rule to help strengthen your boundaries is that only your loving wife is allowed to fulfill your ENs. If I am correct then I know you have made a covenant with god and your wife to only have sexual relations with her and no one else for all time and eternity. To help keep that covenant in the future it is important to affair proof yourself (especially now that you are living in another house, vulnerable) by not having anyone other than your loving wife fulfill your EN's no matter how much your taker is starving for them. This is a planned boundary.

Also never put Miracle of Forgiveness down read and reread. President Kimball bluntly represents the pain that adultery causes, and what it can do to a soul and family. Very excellent book because it hits the nail on the head so well that it should prevent any reader from ever having a desire to commit adultry. Also church related, I know what your bishop is telling you and there is no better spiritaul advice you can get.

Pick up His Needs Her Needs, and Love Busters.

Sooner or later you can tell others how to strengthen a marriage and what it means to have boundaries.

It sits next to my bed with the book mark in it where I left off at thoughts becoming actions.

I would list my wife's EN's as:
-admiration
-honesty and openness
-conversation
-financial support
-family commitment
I'm not sure in that particular order though.

Conversation is the easiest need to meet without your WW lowering her defenses. What are her interests? What does she talk to her girlfriends about? Pop culture, politics? Prepare yourself to have an intelligent 15-30 minute conversation with her on one of her favorite topics. Find a way to smoothly work that topic into your conversation and try to engage her. If it doesn't work, try again later with something else.

Continue to help out with the snow and other things around the house. Ask if there is anything that needs to be done around the house (fix a leak, etc.). Whenever you see her, find something to compliment her about, (I like your hair that way, that outfit looks nice, etc.). Don't go overboard. Just something you would have normally said to one of your ride along skanks to compliment them. And I don't think I need to adress the honesty one.

Just reporting in. The girls and I are hanging out for the weekend while mommy is out of town on business. As I picked them up from our house this morning I couldn't help but notice the condition of the house so I seized the opprotunity later to go back and make it so when she returns it's one less thing on her plate. Plus, tomorrow we will start our weekly bowling activity and the kids are excited.

Bob, do you mean you're going to clean her house for her? Maybe it's just me, but if I were her and got back home to a clean house I would consider it a little creepy.

It's just you.

I think it's very sweet.

If I was on my way home, thinking about and dreading all the chores I needed to do, and then opened the door to a clean, neat home I would be very grateful!

I think it's a great idea!

But..from a guy you're divorcing? I dunno...I guess it IS me. I would feel kind of like I was being, I don't know, stalked, maybe.

Did you see that movie with Julia Roberts, where she's being stalked by her neat freak husband, and she opens up her cupboards one day and all of her soup cans are perfectly aligned?

Maybe I shouldn't watch so many movies.

Might be a nice surprise. Just remember why you are doing it. You're doing it because you are concerned and want to help, not to make her take notice and say hey Look at what Bob did! She may indeed say that but lets leave that up to her.

Can you involve your kids to help as well? Might see if you can make a game of it with them too. I do this with my girls all the time!

Well we all went over and they vacuumed the floors after I did, but we've been done since before I wrote my last post. I do try and involve them. The other night when she came by to pick up the kids, they took home a plate of brownies I let them make for her and them.

Since I'm aware of my need for praise, I'm more conscience of my reasoning for doing these acts and expect nothing in return. I actually feel satisfaction just for doing something nice. She thanks me for individual acts and so she's fulfilling that EN for me. If she doesn't, then so be it, I hope it helped or brought her and the kids some joy.

Good to hear TexasBob!

I too do these things because I honestly know my wife is tired at the end of a day and appreciates the work. Even if she does not say it often. I'm just happy to give of myself where I can and it does rub off on my kids.

Don't make any mention of it to her when she gets back. If she mentions it - just say hey - it was a joint effort between me and the girls.

So before you went out to destroy your marriage, which ones were you not meeting?

The last one. Gosh, you really want to drive the point home. I think I along with everyone else in my life knows I'm about as valuable as dirt and even dirt has more worth than me for the pain I've inflicted on my innocent wife.

Well, how are YOU gonna fix that? HINT: It has NOTHING to do with your WIFE and if you remain married.

I was just talking to my 2 sons in my bed this morning(they come in every morning and wake me up). My WH, their FATHER left 1 year ago tomorrow. I asked them if there is ever a way to fix your mistakes. At first, they said, "No." Then I told them that there ARE ways that people can fix their mistakes. The BEST way to do that is to NEVER do that again. You would also show remorse and you would do whatever you needed to try to make it better for the person you wronged. I told them that you can't change what you did, but you CAN change what you WILL DO. So WHAT WILL YOU DO?

@Texas -

You are not dirt. You are a WS. That means that you've made mistakes. You have to own it.

The real question for us are you willing to change your life and learn from your mistake. Are you going to do what it takes.

Man, your children need a good father. It always comes down to the kids.

So what will you do?