Hi,
Have been reading this forum a lot lately. Briefly my story, Beginning of october after the worst fight we've ever had, the wife began to be distant. A couple weeks later she wrote me an email detailing her problems with the marriage. I told her I would stop those actions. She continued to be distant although at that time I just felt she was acting weird, which made me angry. During one of those arguments she stated she wanted marriage counseling to which I said no because I did not realize how serious matters were. Approx 3 weeks later, I realized that she was still distant, I asked for marriage counseling at which point she said no. I asked multiple different times. She stated that she needed space and so I moved out for a week to live with a friend. After that week, she said she was going to stay with one of her "girlfriends". Forward a few more weeks to early december, she states she wants a divorce. At this time, my parents came and tried to talk her out of it which obviously didn't work. All along I had been suspecting their might be an affair going on, but never thought she could do anything like that. I had enough proof the few days after my parents came and confronted her. She denied until I told her the proof I had after which she confessed. It seems like it's mostly emotional but they have at least kissed. She already wanted a divorce so this didn't change matters. I immediately made her expose it to her siblings and I also wrote them an email, but didn't seem like that had much of an affect. I exposed it to a couple of her friends who although say it's not right what she's doing are supporting her and understand because in her mind the marriage was over. I exposed it to her parents who said they are trying to get her to stop but she's not listening. I have asked the OM to quit having contact with her. I mailed a letter to his parents a couple days ago. She completely moved out last week to her own place. The OM is her coworker. I emailed him couple days ago to stop contact with her or I will expose him at work (he is her supervisor). He did not reply however she did very angrily stating I was hateful and vengeful and how dare I defame him at work. This from the same woman who stated how much she loved me three months prior, was talking about having kids, etc. I have been reading a lot about how having an affair is like being a drug addict and that's kind of how i'm thinking of it, a good person making a bad decision. It's hard to get peace of mind knowing the marriage is end while she is having an affair (although she states that's the not the reason and it would have ended anyway but i don't believe that honestly). Just looking for thoughts/suggestions, etc. Thankyou

We have been married for less than 2 years, together for 6, have no kids. Any help/suggestions appreciated.

Welcome to Marriage Builders. I would suggest you do expose him at work. Is he married?

He is "unfortunately" not married (would make exposing easier)
I am planning on sending an anoymous email to their boss stating he is engaged in an affair without mentioning my wife's name...

There is a simple rule, when you expose you do so in a way that leaves no doubt that there is an affair. There is no anonymous exposure, the only way you have a chance to save your marriage is to ensure there is no contact ever with he OM , you write a letter to the Hr department and you call his boss and make sure the message gets through. Doing this by stealth only facilitates the affair and discredits yourself . Do this now as every delay plays into their faviour, if she lose her job so what , a marriage is worth more than her job. You name and you shame both parties, you tell the truth.

Go to facebook and track his name down, it is your goal to let his family and friends know he is in an adulterous affair with your wife, there has to be enough pain for him to make to affair uncomfortable enough for him not to want to be near your wife, these recommendation are grounded so please do not dilute them or waver.

abc, you haven't been reading quite enough yet.

Does negotiating with terrorists work? Not often.

But you negotiated with the man who is pursuing (and, if she has spent nights away from your house, quite possibly bedding) YOUR wife. You just showed weakness. And as far as your marriage is concerned, he's a terrorist. He's not trying to save your marriage. He's not even indifferent to it. He is, by his actions, actively taking measures that are likely to kill your marriage.

You don't negotiate exposure, you don't "threaten it," you just do it. By warning the OM but not exposing, you have made a HUGE tactical mistake that could cost you the battle for your marriage.

It's not necessarily too late, but you're running out of ammo. Use it wisely:

If you have clear evidence, you should send letters. LOTS of them. I would practically wallpaper their office building with evidence of their affair, so that every person there, every clerk and secretary and maid and parking-lot attendant, sees what they are up to. When they arrive at work one day, it should be the buzz of the office!

Look: The fact that OM is her supervisor is like a gift from the Gods for you: It means that unless he is the owner of a privately held company, there's someone higher-up to whom he reports; and that someone probably will be anything but pleased at the legal risks (sexual harrassment, reputational risks, financial risk of getting socked with a huge lawsuit if she were to decide that his advances constitute "harrassment" someday in the future, etc.) to which this person is subjecting his company. This reflects tremendously poor managerial judgement, and his higher-ups may well act to put pressure on him, if not dismiss him outright in order to cover their bums.

So you have a beautiful opportunity to bust up their little affair snow-globe! Write his higher-ups a letter, and cc: a copy to the company's general counsel, so that each recipient knows that some other senior person in the company has also received the same letter; that'll make it less likely that they'll try to sweep it under the rug.

You will not be "defaming" him; he defamed himself! As long as your evidence is clear, you will simply be telling the truth.

Do not negotiate this, and do not further warn them. Just do it. You also need to completely expose to family & friends of both of them in the same manner, because you may have dampened the impact of your workplace-exposure by negotiating with the OM & tipping him off to your thinking.

(Never share your thinking with a terrorist. Your goal is not to co-opt him, your goal is to rock & shock his cozy world with the salutary light of day & truth.)

This is not done for the purpose of humiliating per se; it may have the effect of humiliating the affairees, but it's actually an act of love that you do for your wife, who is indeed effectlvely an addict and likely CANNOT end this affair on her own.

After you marshal your evidence and expose the affair, there are other things you'll need to do, but that has to be your first step.

Now, she will be PO'd at you when you do this. At you. That can wear off, however. There's no guarantee it will; some folks remain wayward. But you have the best chance to save a marriage if your wife is no longer having her emotional needs met via an affair. As long as she's in the affair, you have no chance.

Welcome, abc.
I hate to do a pile-on, but I've got to stress with everyone else: DO NOT THREATEN EXPOSURE. This will give the adulterers plenty of time to get their story straight and paint you out to be a jealous nut-job. Just drop the bomb.

There is a slender possibility that exposure will end this, since your WW got so upset about the thought of it. But you need to do it the right way - none of this slinking around, trying to keep people from finding out that the exposer is you. Do this loud and proud. Hand write the letter and make three copies. Send one to his/their immediate supervisor and one to the CEO/President of the company. Send another one to the corporate attorney if you can identify him. CEO's and corporate attorneys get really anxious when they get letters like that, abc. They don't like it. It smacks of liability, and that equals loss of profit, you get what I'm saying?

Put a 'cc' at the bottom of your letter and list the people who are being copied on it.

Sign your name! Anonymous letters have a way of 'getting lost in the mail.' (Oh, yeah, did I mention to send the letters certified mail so they have to be signed for?) If you do this anonymously your targets will assume you're too chicken to call them if you don't see any action. And they'd be right, wouldn't they.

Believe me, abc, employers hate getting letters like this! When my FWH's employer got his from the BH in my sitch, all hell broke loose in that office. OH, YEAH. There was definitely some attention paid to that. And BUST went the affair.

And that's IF you want to save this. You're newly married with no kids and a WW who obviously doesn't understand commitment. You could walk away from this and find a woman who deserves you and won't screw around on you. Up to you.

She stated that she got a lawyer and filed for divorce today. States that she will pursue legal action if I expose at work. I said I will sue him for alienation of affection. She called me frantically today, worried and crying that if I expose the OM he will lose his job and ruin the rest of his career. I stated that I wasn't planning on exposing her. I still care about her and am trying not to hurt her. She said by doing this to OM I am hurting her. She is soooo worried about him. States that her filing for divorce has nothing to do with him, but due to he feelings of not being treated well for all those years. Then I said I want to make his life a living hell, and will do whatever I can to ruin his life. I don't know if it's worth it at this point to continue all this given the short time of our marriage. It hurts a lot and I do love her despite all of this....I just don't know...

EXPOSE TO HIS JOB!!!

You just found out where the weakness is to end this affair...TAKE IT!! Expose it to his work and family now

If you really love her and want her back then you would expose his work, and why not?

If they are "soul mates" don't you think everyone should know

Tough $@*^.

Absolute wrong move. LISTEN to the people here and DO what they say if you are serious about wanting to save your marriage.

Has she been married before? <~~~ IMPORTANT !!!



I'm going to call YOU out on this.
You refused counseling because of a lack of EMPATHY for her distress.
That is the ONLY reason you refused.

Your W clearly said "I am in pain."
You clearly responded "Live with it."


You asked for counseling when YOU were experiencing pain. You avoided counseling when she was in pain.
See the empathy problem?
I am not picking on you, Dr Harley thinks a lack of empathy is the root of many marriage problems.
Not just yours. Mine. Everyone's.


It helps to have our lack of empathy pointed out to us.
I hope this gives you an "A-ha moment".


abc

I have not read any Plan A carrot so far.

PLEASE click the link in my sig line and inform us of both carrot and stick of your Plan A so far .....

Defamation and slander are reserved for telling public lies about a person. Is this affair a lie. Nope. therefore it is not slander or defamation, they did it to themselves, not you. If they truly are so happy together then you might as well let everyone know about the joyous time they share.

I also want to say that in October they were probably having an EA at work. She most likely confided in the OM about the current state of marriage, and things just went downhill from there.

If divorce really is the end game for her, then you might as well pull out all the stops now, and save your own butt. Do what you can now so when you move you don't feel like you didn't do enough.

From LOVE BUSTERS found in the BASIC CONCEPTS:




OM will look like a better option to your WW if she feels she is being love-busted by you.

Plan A is not ONLY about exposure.
Plan A is also about becoming attractive (again) to your wife.

If you have shown your wife you can be thoughtless, it is time to show her you can be thoughtful and caring.

CARROT too, not just the stick.

This is your W telling you what she needs.

She needs YOU to treat her well.

YES, the stick (of Plan A) still applies, however, it does not sound to me like you have been a stellar husband.

If you were to give yourself a "husband report card", what grade would you assign yourself? How differently would your W grade you as a husband?

I am NOT NOT NOT saying her decision to had an A is your fault.
Her A is 100% HER fault.

The marriage is at lease 50% your responsibility.
Your own behaviors in the marriage are 100% your responsibility.

I am saying this ~~~>your Plan A opportunities are vast if you've not been above a C-level husband these past 2 years.

Also from the LOVE BUSTERS part of the BASIC CONCEPTS:



What sort of fisherman have you been in the past?

Have you been lazy and not cleaning your net?

It's not too late.

I am a huge fan of Empathic Listening. It is very hard to master, that is why i am a fan, not a master.

Empathic Listening

Indian Talking Stick

My Talking stick sits on the dresser.

IMHO

You can expose the hell out of this affair and your WW will still feel distant from you.
Will still feel unloved by you.
Will still feel uncared for by you.
And, definitely, not feel that she is adored ~~~> by you.

Exposure is good.
But exposure without considering how EMPTY her love bank is .... will not save this marriage.

I hope this helps.

Clear your thoughts and do not waffle, stop telling her what you are doing. Set up the exposure plan, his friends, family AND work place. Do not waver nor be fearful of her threats, keep off relationship discussions, do not move out of the house, do not agree a separation.

Do you need a copy of plan A?

Do you need an exposure letter for his friends and work?

Do you need an exposure letter for your family and hers?

No words here can force you to do this however be very clear this processes has been developed over decades, you are not the first to do this, do follow the processes so we can take you to the next stage.

Interesting how she thinks it would be you who would cause him to make poor choices, risking his career.


So, she expects you to be a co-conspirator and help the OM destroy your marriage with no consequences for his actions?


And her filing for divorce just happens to coincide with her having an affair? My wife said the same thing to justify her affair: it was due to all the "damage" I had caused in our 20 year marriage. You know what? I call bullsh*t on that one. Her thoughts of ending the marriage are likely caused ONLY because of the fog of the A.


Not a wise action to say that. You are still in a position of trying to be the wonderful man your wife knew when she first met you. To attack the OM will only make him look better, because she will see the OM as the victim in this. You must not tell her what you think of him.

PLEASE click on this *link* and read it from the top.

Oh, WAA WAA. She's just confirmed your most important exposure target. Now, QUIT TALKING TO HER ABOUT IT AND EXPOSE THIS NASTY THING. Sheesh!

...and do it quickly. You made a HUGE strategic mistake in confiding in your WW about your plans to expose. Your WW is NOT on your side! Imagine what WWII would have turned out like if the US called Japan beforehand to let them know that a bomber was on the way to Hiroshima?

Your WW and the OM are likely right now concocting a story for the powers that be to portray you as a crazy and deluded H that thinks they had an A, when no such thing happened. Hope you got evidence at hand to prove what you're saying - you might need it.

I am just under one month post exposure. Listen to these people it works.

Sounds like you have some work to do on Plan A as well.

Get it ALL done, right away. Results will come quick.

Gently ...



This is not an example of making a love bank deposit.

I'm going to (gently) school you, just a little.

Alternative:


It's OK to TELL OM you will make his life a "living hell". In fact, I'm all for it.


But, if you are interested in MARRIAGE BUILDING while speaking to your WW, it is more effective to use this as an opportunity to amplify to your W how much SHE means to you, NOT how much you hate OM

How old are you?

I ask simply to get a good gauge, but my advice would be the same regardless.

You have no kids with this woman. You haven�t been married for very long. Many, if not most, of the betrayed men on this board would have liked to have found out that we married a cheater BEFORE having kids. Dealing with the ex would be easy at that point. You get rid of her, learn from your mistake, never date a woman like her again, and move on with your life while never speaking to the cheater again.

Steve Harley himself recommends that if there is a short marriage with no kids where cheating enters into the equation that the betrayed should seriously consider D. That being said, he does support when a BS wishes to save their marriage.

Ultimately, staying or going is a decision you reach once you go through the process.

Now, no matter which path you choose to follow, you need to take certain actions. The only chance of saving your marriage comes from ending the affair.

You should immediately expose this man to his company. He is a supervisor taking advantage of a subordinate and the company pays attention to the risk of a sexual harassment suit that could result from this.

Who cares what she thinks about it or what he thinks about it. She will be furious. Your only response to her anger should be, �I will do what is necessary to save this marriage.�

An alienation of affection lawsuit is wonderful, if you can make it happen. If that doesn�t do it, then sue on the grounds of �intentional infliction of emotional distress�. You may not win, but filing will draw major attention from him.

These are all steps necessary for killing the affair. Does your family and her family know of the affair?

Exposure must go far and wide.

But the odds of recovery are low since you don�t have kids with her and aren�t living together anymore.

So best of luck. But I wish I had known I married a cheater before I ever had kids with her. You�re lucky and don�t know it. There are too many women in this world to try and save a betrayal with one that isn�t worth it. Just chew on that thought.

If you had kids, I�d tell you different. No kids=no loss.

ABC,

She called me frantically today, worried and crying that if I expose the OM he will lose his job and ruin the rest of his career...

Quite likely because he has exploited his supervisory position before, and if someone has the guts to bring this abuse out in the open, others might come forth.

God Bless
Gamma

Thank you for your continued replies. You guys are gonna think I'm not listening to you, I am, just have a lot of anxiety about doing this for whatever reason. In my state there's a 6 month period of separation before we can be divorced. My wife stated today that she would be willing to not have any contact with this guy until divorce is final, but still definitely wants divorce (i don't think she knows about the 6 month rule). If she gives me access to phone records, email, etc should i take her up on this? Basically it seems she's willing to do whatever if I don't expose him at the moment. I was thinking about even making her go to counseling for herself (to help with her perspective about things, low self esteem at times, always looking at negative aspects in things, to be emotionally stronger), my reasoning would be that I care about her and she needs help with these things even if it is for another relationship. I've been reading a lot and haven't seen this particular twist. I know I should have a particular plan, just want to run this twist by you guys. Thank you

I don't get this???

You want to save the marriage and yet do nothing, and then she says shell stop contact till the divorce is final which is in 6 months??

One question...

WHY ARE U EVEN HEAR. If ur not gunna fight for ur marriage and let her divorce you then there is no point in exposing since u have already lost.

Now if u want to keep fighting then stop giving excuses and expose this to his work/family.

You just found the golden spot to kill this affair and u won't even do it to fight for her?????

I don't understand!

You are making strategic mistakes that will cost you your marriage. You have a short window of time to expose the affair and save your marriage. Your wife is not going to end contact with this OM. She is going to go further underground. And by keeping this secret, you are ENABLING the affair.

We have had untold marriages end in divorce this way. Go ask helpforlostdads what happened to his marriage when he did this very thing.

What do you want? Honestly?

Because the actions you are doing right now is saying ''i want my marriage to end, I do not care anymore''

Sigh....

The point is to not have any contact so that the relationship can heal. I'm afraid your wife's logic is a bit twisted.

You can't expose just him and leave your "wife" out of it.

She and he chose to have an affair.

She and he chose to have an affair with a co-worker.

She and he chose to have an affair with a superior / inferior co-worker.

She and he have to face the consequences of it...up to and including termination of employment.

I understanding not wanting to hurt her...but obviously she wan't thinking about NOT hurting you when she had an affair, now was she?

If your evidence is solid and straight forward...do not fear legal action.

Slander and Libel are only applicable if the information is false and untrue...not to mention unprovable.

ABC,

My wife stated today that she would be willing to not have any contact with this guy until divorce is final

She is still deep in the fantasy that this guy LOVES her and it is so SPECIAL that no one in the world has experienced something so wonderful.

Expose the OM and he will turn his back on her, this will reveal him as the skunk he actually is and might break the spell he has on her when he spurns her love.

God Bless
Gamma

EXACTLY what the OM did to my wife when the OMW found out. My wife came out of her fog almost overnight! Then he tried to go back to his marriage and his wife said no way, and they are now getting divorced.

abc, you're not the first BH to come here and be afraid of what he has to do. My question to you is: WHAT IS IT YOU FEAR?? That your WW is going to leave you?? She has already told you she's going to!

What she is doing is not unique, abc. She is negotiating with you to shut you up and keep OM in the picture. This is not a twist, it's a normal wayward technique.

If she's successful in hoodwinking you, she'll have bought herself 6 months of peace in which to enjoy her disgusting adultery with OM. That is NOT what you want, correct?

You've already gotten a huge heads-up from her that exposure will be deadly to the A.

What is causing you to hedge on this while this affair becomes more entrenched daily?

What do YOU want, abc? I see two possibilities open for you to consider:

--Do you want to give yourself a chance of trying to save your marriage (not a guarantee, for there IS no guarantee, but a chance)? If so, expose like crazy, as you've been advised. The OM is obviously $#***ing his pants at the prospect of being exposed, and may cave & drop your wife in order to save his professional situation; or else -- fired, unemployed & disgraced -- he won't be attractive to her anymore. IF YOU want to try to save the marriage, then the avenue is there for you to try (so long as you realize that it can't work if you stay in fearful mode & fail to fully employ the best weapons at your disposal). PERHAPS then you'll stand a chance of killing the affair and perhaps winning back her affections.

--If you PREFER to consent to an amicable separation, then there's no dishonor in that, given how she's abused you. But if so, why are you here on this site? Why not just send them a bottle of champagne along with your best wishes for their happiness, and have a lawyer protect your interests?

The choice is yours. Best wishes. //

abc,

I know what you're thinking: These are strangers on the internet. They don't know me or my WW. My WW is different. Their advice is crazy and wrong.

Well, Melodylane let you know about my situation.

I did everything my WW asked. You know what it got me? Divorced. She never came back. She never regretted it. She never said sorry.

I'm at a point now where I'm glad she didn't and I'm glad she's out of my life. But I was on MB from the beginning, going on 5 years now, and didn't follow the advice. It was because I told myself all the things above.

You're being held hostage by fear. You have no chance of saving your marriage so long as there is an affair.

The only way to end the affair is to attack it, which involves exposure.

Ignore us at your own risk. Then again, you have no kids. So you could turn to her and say, "Good riddance. Pack your crap and get out of my house." At that point you never speak to her again until you sign the papers. The day of the divorce hearing, you can say, "Wow. You really let yourself go."

Then never speak to her again.

I know a man who did as I just described. He's very happy.

So, that advice we're giving you is intended to save your marriage by killing the affair.

You can choose the three options given. Ignore us and end up divorced. Or follow the advice on exposure and give yourself a chance to save the marriage.

Or the third option, which I described, which is Plan FU.

Thanks for all the replies. Any example letters of how to expose the affair to their work. I don't want to come off as vindictive or vengeful. At this point I was thinking about just exposing OM and then if need be give my wife's name. Should I also write any kind of letter to my wife or just ignore her.

Dude- why do you care what they think at this point?

She is walking all over you and the OM - do you think he cares about you one bit? If he did then he would not be messing with your wife and driving a wedge between you two.

Expose to whoever and where ever you can.

3 options!!!

Pick one!

Abc098: as a person you have to listen and hear what is said, this helps you understand what is being said as well as message. You are reading the posts and yet you choose to use an abc098 plan that is NOT aligned to the MB plan. Why do you think your plan will work when the MB plan has decades of success behind it. You do a full exposure and you mention your wifes name, she is intentionally having and affair and if proud of it so you tell all, this is not vengeful this is fighting for and saving your marriage.

Someone will post a link to some sample words in the interim track his family and friends down

the only reason i said i didn't want to come off as vindictive is because then maybe the employer wouldn't be as receptive to the email
-i mailed his parents a letter, no response
-next his work
-and friends (through facebook i suppose)

That's why you mention things like "possible misuse of company resources" and such things as that. It becomes more relevant to them if their resources are being wasted.

Hi ABC. sorry about your situation. if it is any consolation there are many of us with similar situations. the more experienced members of this forum are entirely correct. failure to act on your part = supporting the affair. fighting for your marriage = fighting for your marriage. a fight is not fair. it is about winning. it involves using all the means at your disposal. my mistake (which is why my W has had 2 A's!!) was not exposing the 1st time w/ no real recovery, and i did limited exposure the 2nd time thus allowing my W time to gather herself and think that everything was alright. it took me months to expose to my kids. i am @ wits end and would save u a fate such as mine by stressing to u the overwhelming importance of not holding back.

engaging in a workplace romance with a subordinate is inappropriate to say the least. their decision to engage in such behavior places their jobs and the company at risk. they have to answer for that. anything your W says right now is being done to protect the OM. i say eff that. she is not in her right mind. people in situations such as their's are not. do NOT waffle on this. go after him tomorrow. do not let the w/e hit without doing this. draft your letter and send it tomorrow morning by both email and snailmail, mailing one to yourself but not opening the envelope. do not hesitate to include your W's name in the letter. she has to answer for her choices. she will obviously be angry at first, but that is typical. she will get over it.

you are not alone. i wish you the best. you have the strength within you.

hi ABC ...

i am sorry to hear your story ...
she loves OM. and you still want to win her. right now, all her words are lie. i suggest, you concern about yourself only. ignore her. plan B time or maybe plan D.

good luck

To whom it may concern:

It is my duty to bring to your attention a serious breach of conduct that has been occurring in your company for (insert length of time).

An extra-marital affair between supervisor and subordinate has been occurring between (other man) and (your wife).

Enclosed you will find documentation confirming the offense to your company.

I am certain that the abuse of power and position by (other man) is in direct violation of several of your corporate guidelines on behavior, not to mention sexual harassment.

Unfortunately, it is common that when abuse of power and position happens, it is not just an isolated incident.

I urge you to investigate the strong possibility that other abuses of power occurred and that company resources may have been utilized to carry out this extra-marital affair.

Activity such as this can undermine the integrity and morale of a corporation. I trust that you will take appropriate action to restore the good name of your company.

Should you wish to inquire further of me, I may be reached at: (ph #, email, etc).

Respectfully yours,

(you)

*****

Send to: CEO, Human Resources, OM's immediate supervisor, the law offices that represent them

Of course you should give your wife's name. It won't make any sense if you don't. Especially when you sign your full name and provide your own phone #.

Developed by Brits Brat, board member and corporate attorney

To Whom It May Concern:

This letter is to bring a matter to your attention that may be a violation of your Company's Code of Conduct and/or other policies, procedures and business ethics.

WS and WS are involved in an extramarital affair that is taking place, primarily, in the workplace. Aside from the potential sexual harassment claims this situation presents, it also involves the inappropriate use of company resources and assets. WS and WS are using company time and company resources to further their affair. If you check the call histories on their office and cell phones along with their workstation computers, you will find the two of them are spending an inordinate amount of what should be productive work time to further their sexual relationship.

If you have any questions, please call me at xxx-xxxx. Otherwise, I will anticipate a response from you once you have investigated these concerns and taken appropriate corrective action.

Regards,

BS
_________________________

The employer will not be receptive to an anonymous letter. That is a waste of time. The letter has to include your wife's name and all the other facts or there is no reason to take you seriously.

How do you know this man is single? It is unusual that a single OP would be this terrified about losing his job. How do you know he is not married?

Did you use Brit Brats exposure letter at OM's job?

You have to do this to kill the affair. Apeashing the WW will only give her more time to have SF with the OM and still get you divorced in the end.

If you don't want to appear vindictive, you can either use the template letter mentioned previously, or simply state that you are trying to do everything you can to save your marriage and that you would appreciate it if the company would stop this inappropriate relationship between subordinate and supervisor that is probably being conducted on company time so that you and your wife can work on your marital issues without pressure and interference from her supervisor.

You need to shed your fear. What is the worst that will happen? That she will carry out her threat to divorce you? Has she actually filed? If that is the worst that can happen and the process has already started, then what are you afraid of?

hereisme, have you read Dr. Harley's concepts on this website? I suspect you have not, and yet with only 3 posts under your belt you are advising other posters on proceeding to destroy their Ms. Are you a counselor? Because that's what most MCs do.

Before proceeding to give your personal advice, please take the time to acquaint yourself on the concepts of the owners of this website.

This is a simple fix! ABC you can restore your marriage as long as you are willing to do the work....exposing him at work and his family will give you a green light on saving this marriage. if you don't want to be in this marriage and you want to lose her then do exactly what hereisme83 told you to do.

I submitted an email to their workplace. We will see what happens...

Be prepared for her response. She will be furious. She will say things like:

I can't believe you did this to him/me!
Did you think this was going to help?
Why don't you want me to be happy?
Can't you understand that it is over between us?
Your ruined his life!
I was considering saving our marriage, but you just ended any chance of that!

Or variants along these lines.

it's a script. We've seen it a million times.

What did it say?

Your only response to her rants should be, "I will do what is necessary to end your affair and save our marriage."

That's it.

Then, as many have suggested to others in your situation, offer her a cookie. Have some on hand.

Act like her anger means nothing to you. Be James Bond/Bruce Lee/Mr. Spock.

Pretend she just came in and told you it was raining outside. Show nothing but confidence, even though you won't feel it inside.

Finally,

I wanted to add that I disagree that telling her that you will make the OM's life hell is a LB. I don't follow that logic at all considering he's a man who is f-ing your wife.

ABC,

We are all sitting here in amazement at the position you are in: you may not know it, but you are sitting in the proverbial DRIVER'S SEAT!

Imagine being the pilot of a WW-II era bomber loaded with a nuclear bomb. You signed the bomb yourself in bright white chalk. Imagine yourself pulling the lever and destroying your enemy. If you don't pull it, you will eventually be shot down by the enemy and suffer a painful death. Are you going to pull the lever or just circle the target until you are shot down?

Send the letter to his work!

I'll explain from a woman's point of view.
Something I have, you lack.

I do not blame you one bit for not having the woman's POV.
You're a guy.

Plan A
Becoming attractive to your WW

BH says:
"I will make OM's life a living hell."

WW (foggy) thinks/feels/ assumes :
"It's just another way for you to protect your ego.
This is not about any love you claim to have for me."

Whereas if BH tweaks his approach toward WW a bit, it becomes HARDER for WW to use this exposure against him.

BH must convey to the foggy WW he loves HER, and he is acting (exposure) in order to preserve his marriage/family.

I think it is just fine to be scary as hell when speaking to the OM.
It is counter-productive to be scary as hell when speaking to a foggy WW.

Unless your goal is to make her fearful.

If your goal is to make yourself attractive just tweak the words. Keep the actions strong.

And, scare the hell out of OM, not the WW.

Does this help?

Basically stated they were involved in an affair, may have been using company resources, is immoral and unethical, should not be condoned, etc...

Somebody was knocking at my door for about 20 minutes this morning..i'm assuming someone to serve me divorce papers..ignored it...was really upset after that...

Wife sent following email today:
i wish this marriage worked out. i feel sad about it. i still wonder if i couldve been better. but i just can't feel this way any longer. please understand that OM has nothing to do with the decision for ending the marriage. please try and understand that. i know its hard and its upsetting. but i do care about you and your well being. and i want you to be happy. maybe we were just not good for each other but i know there will be someone out there better for you than me. i felt like i told u when we would fight and when i would tell you i don't like how you treated me a certain way ... that was enough for me ... but i guess not for you ... that is both of our faults ... and sorry it happened this way.

i appreciate that you are willing to work on the marriage ... but my fear of our future is weights too heavily and i think that we have struggled/i have struggled for so long that a future will be the same. i don't want to have kids and be unhappy. and i don't want you to be with someone unhappy. you deserve a very happy/loving marriage/family."

Doesn't sound like normal WW talk...

100% agree.

Yes, it sounds completely normal.

It's a version of the good cop/bad cop scenario: Plan A his WW, Plan I'm Going To Kick Your [censored] OM.

And here is a very useful piece of information.

She is exposing her own need/desire.

If you can get the chance, address this comment, and THIS comment only.
(the rest of her missive is just standard bullcrap)

Address the happy/loving marriage/family this way:

(examples)

I have been studying just how to create a lifetime loving marriage using tools/skills I never knew existed.

I am excited to learn & use these new tools/skills to repair our family and create a safe marriage where we both feel welcome and loved.

If you knew of a place that could help us become that happy couple/family, would you be willing to try?



Just remember the PARABLE of THE NET.
To catch fish, you need a clean net.

You are a fisherman.
You have some bait.
The bait is this. ~~~>If WW is willing to at least TRY one session with the Harleys, they can usually lure the WW back to "trying".

WW may not be ready yet.
But keep putting the bait out there.

Lure WW back with the possibility of a happy family/marriage with you, using the tools and skills you are just beginning to learn.

So, did you read my carrot/stick link?

Pep

EGG ZAK LEE

I did read the carrot and stick link..thanks

so I will email her back with that bait later...but seems kind of like chasing her doesn't it which i shouldn't be doing??

You can ask WW a question.

You should not beg/plead/whine .... etc.
You should not educate/teach/preach.

ASKING her a question in the manner I suggested is NOT a love-buster.

Have you read all about love busters on this site?
LINK


Read it again. Top to bottom.

i have read love busters..will read it again

we're obviously both on the site at the same time...should be some kind of instant messaging option

Have you done this?



Have you taken a self inventory?
Have you looked at your strengths?
Have you amplified what you do right?

Are you physically working out?
Are you dressing sharp?
Are you smelling good?
Did you get a haircut?
Is your mood (mostly) optimistic?
Are you singing? Whistling?
Do you walk with your head high, shoulders back?
Do you think before opening your mouth to speak?

Are you making yourself attractive as possible?
Are you using what you've got to the best advantage?

Address the happy/loving marriage/family this way:

(examples)

I have been studying just how to create a lifetime loving marriage using tools/skills I never knew existed.

I am excited to learn & use these new tools/skills to repair our family and create a safe marriage where we both feel welcome and loved.

If you knew of a place that could help us become that happy couple/family, would you be willing to try?




Her response:
its so hard for me to do this esp when you still want to work on ur marriage. but please try to understand. our marriage is over. i can't go through what happened in the past. i don't believe in the change toward me, maybe for someone else. i can't take the chance things will ever go back to how they were. i'm sorry. please understand, i know its hard and you may not but i need to do whats right for me right now. i'm sorry.

Yes I'm taking care of myself the best I can
The last couple times I've seen her I've put my best foot forward, I even helped her move out

abc, keep in mind that it's rare for an actively wayward spouse (especially a woman) to quickly shift gears & buy into recovery as a goal. It just doesn't happen while the affair is actively ongoing, and it almost never happens early-on during the "withdrawal" period when no-contact has been established (and you're not even at that stage yet).

It takes time -- the same way it takes a drug addict time to get clean. Even after they go cold-turkey, there's a period where the addict still wants the drug, and doesn't want nothin' else!

If you are looking for instant resolution & instant recommitment from her, you're very unlikely to find it, this early-on after initial exposure.

If you want to say you gave your best effort to save the marriage, then you're going to have to keep a steady hand, stay strong under the pressure that they're putting on you (pressure to back off on your exposure), give the exposure a chance to do its devastating work, give it a spell of time. You keep up the pressure, and let them squirm! (Think: "HA-HA-HA-HA-ha-ha-ha!" and chuckle to yourself when you think about the OM squirming & bargaining with you as the vice he's stuck his **** into gets tighter & tighter. Ignore your wife's entreaties for divorce. Calmly reply: "I don't discuss divorce; I discuss marriage." Continue to be gracious & amiable toward her, and see where things look in a week or two. My advice, fwiw.

Wait awhile.
A week maybe.
And then, when the timing is right ....

"I know that our kids deserve our very best effort to keep this family intact.
I could not live with myself knowing I gave up too soon.
I want to give this family every possible chance before breaking up a good home."

Her response is TYPICAL for a WW.
You get that?
It is typical.

Her response is standard wayward speak. Don't let it phaze you.

And as far as telling her about OM:

Still don't buy the logic. Lots of betrayed here have made it clear to the wayward that the AP will never be accepted by anyone in the family. Telling her you'll make the OM's life a living hell is not an LB. Call it marking your territory.

Sorry. Then I think like a man. I don't think that displaying a desire to fight for your marriage and take the OM on is an LB.

The point is moot. It happened.

I like Melodylane's take with Doc Holiday. Basically the same thing.

It also makes the WW aware that you're not simply going to roll over and die because the new idiotboy is in the picture.

If you do get served, then you respond with a nuke. You ask for everything, counterfile on grounds of adultery, marital misconduct, emotional abuse, and throw in the kitchen sink. Then ask for alimony and all marital assets.

When she reacts in shock, let her know that you don't wish to go down this road at all and you'd rather fix your marriage.

Or you could say "FU" and tell her she's let herself go when you see her again in a year to finalize things.

Maybe a bridge too far for him, Pep ... he noted in his first post that they have no kids. Could take more than a week to produce some. .

One of the reasons she keeps giving for leaving now is that she doesn't want to be unhappy when we have kids and feel stuck...just fyi

Good reasoning for you. Her? Doesn't justify her affair.

I think I've finally worked up the courage to email all their coworkers and then I was also planning on going on OM's facebook page and messaging all his friends (all 500, good idea?) with the below message, please let me know what you think:

Dear friend or coworker of OM,

It grieves me to write this letter but I believe all of his coworkers, friends, and family should know that OM is having an affair with my wife. They started the affair in October 2010.

As you may know OM is my wife's supervisor and has taken advantage of the work situation to impose himself into our marriage.

I am asking you to use your influence with OM to persuade him to leave my family alone.

I believe that you should know this, so you can protect your marriages from him.

OM has intentionally chosen to commit adultery with my wife and is purposefully working to destroy our family and marriage.

I would be happy to provide the evidence to anyone who asks.

I would appreciate it if someone would notify his parents and ask them to contact me.

Thank you,
abc098

abc,

She will utimately respect you for standing up for yourself, by exposing OM, you are also doing a public service as OM/skunk/dog puke will think twice about it in the future.

You are also saving your W from having a DISASTER of a relationship with this guy in the near future.

Not too long ago we ran into the ex-wife of a friend of ours from awhile back, she married her affair partner, but doesn't seem happy and is socially isolated. I think she was relieved that anyone who knew her XH didn't sneer or avoid her.

God Bless
Gamma

Thanks for setting me straight.

Good note start as it will take some time to send the facebook messages. Make sure you wait between 60 and 90 seconds between each message. As there are so many friends choose a sample of say 50 or so , choose those who look like they are family or married/couples. Target work acquaintances as well they are probably on his Facebook.

Be prepared for some to send you negative comments, shallow people support affairs, do not respond to them. Create a similar note for your wifes facebook as well.

Btw:make sure you have a copy of the friends details in case he blocks you from his page, same goes for your wife, exposure is a time consuming effort be patient. Stay on course. If your wife or the OM call while you are still exposing ignore them complete the task at hand first, then rest, if any one does get through and challenges you answer you are following the Dr Harley Marriage Builders processes to save your marriage, do not debate or enter into a dialog say goodbye.

Hi abc, that is great! Did you also send a letter to Human Resources? That will be an important exposure.

Since the OM has so many friends, I would put them in categories and expose to first to the family category and then to the married couple category. Those are the people most likely to have a reaction. Copy and paste all the friends into a WORD doc before you start because the OM will shut down his page when he gets wind of this.

I copied these posts from another thread that might be helpful:

Tabby: Go to the OP's profile page. Look at his or her friends list. If they don't have too many, you can send to all of them. If they have hundreds (and many people do), then you'll have to target them more specifically. You are looking for people who have the same last name, or somebody who writes on the OP's wall frequently. You can also look for people who live in the same city or work in the same place.

When you identify these people, send each one a personal message. The personal message should state that your WS and OP are having an affair and that you are trying to save your marriage. State whatever proof you have, though don't be graphic (i.e. say you have pictures or texts but don't say what's in them).

Change your profile picture to one that clearly shows you and your spouse and your children if possible. Some of these strangers that you send a message to will click on your profile. They should see a happy couple/family. They might even recognize your WS and if he/she has been introduced to this person under false pretences, this will increase the impact of the exposure. Affairees don't just lie to their BS's, but they often lie to other people as well. If they see that children are being affect, it will have an equally powerful effect. Make sure the picture is recent enough that your spouse is recognizable by a casual aquaintance.

Remember, when you are writing to strangers, their initial gut reaction is going to be "who the he** is this?" The message has to be very polite and adhere to the basic facts. Let them verify your story on your profile page and do any further investigating on their own (which will stir up even more exposure).

Oh and one more thing - send all your messages at the same time. Not one message sent to everybody (only put one addressee in the "To" box), but go one by one by one until you are finished. You should also write down these people's names somewhere. The instant that the OP hears about what you have done, they will block you and you will no longer have access to their friends list.

Melodylane: To add to Tabby's excellent suggestions, send the messages a minute apart so fb doesn't shut you down for flooding. Before you start, copy and paste all the friends into a WORD doc.

quick question about my wife's friends,
i've told a couple of them who after she tells she's been unhappy in the marriage are supporting whatever she wants...it seems to me this way she just has more of a support circle and having opposite of the desired affect...thank you

So? And flies land on roadkill, too. Friends of capricious character are not repelled by atrocious misconduct. This is no surprise. As long as your wife's conduct is lousy, those are the only kinds of friendships she'll be able to retain unchanged. The friends with decency (if there are any) will be a little more standoffish, and she may notice. Either way, not something for you to worry about today. Keep to your plan. You need to give it time.

That's to be expected.

You're in a tough situation. You have no kids with her, so a lot of people don't see much of a tragedy in all of this. Some of her friends will support her.

We also now live, sadly, in a society that has a lot of people who focus on doing what feels good and not on what's right.

But you did the right thing.

It may not get you anywhere, but exposure is something you won't regret.

Exposure's intent is to put pressure on the affair and for people who have morals to hopefully pressure the adultery to stop. But there may not be that kind of pressure.

divorce papers slid under my door today..guess it's time to find a lawyer

abc098, you could get your own lawyer just to protect yourself, but remember there are time limits, you probably have a bit of time before you have to respond, but you should always protect yourself in this kind of situation.

Thats ok. A WS will always have uncaring, callous friends like this. They don't give a damn about her and won't take a risk of upsetting her. And many of them may be as corrupt as she is now. It is not expected that every person will support your wife.

Don't let this bother you one bit. You just know who is a friend to your marriage and who is not. These halfwits ARE NOT.

What do the papers say? And has she truly filed or did she just fill out some papers online to scare you?

Did you finish your exposures yesterday?

She truly filed..got a lawyer and everything...it was after I told the OM I was gonna expose him at work..must've scared her

I did expose to her bosses, coworkers, and her friends that she speaks to on a regular basis

I had mailed his parents a letter and I got an email this morning that they flew from across the country to speak to their son to stop having the affair. I emailed them to meet, see what happens.

I decided against messaging all his facebook friends...the yield will be pretty low...and it seems like he pretty much hangs out with his coworkers so should be good enough i think

papers state that i have been guilty of extreme and repeated mental cruelty...that hurts...wish she had told me how much i was hurting her before all this...

ABC, some of the things on divorce papers are just the usual way divorce is done. My WH filed last week and I was astonished to learn that he says I have been guilty of "inappropriate marital conduct". It's a catchall phrase in my state but I think it took some nerve to accuse me of that when he's left me for his skankyho.

You hit the mother lode, my friend!! You did a FANTASTIC EXPOSURE and I want to applaud you for stepping up to the plate!!


Were you guilty of repeated and extreme cruelty? What did you do?

Also, do you live in a fault state? What state are you in?

She's filing irreconcilable differences but it also states the cruelty part.

In retrospect I did have a temper and yelled on multiple occasions...last two to three fights we had i called her names...I know it sounds dumb but I wish I had the insight to realize what I was doing

We live in illinois so we can have fault divorces

While angry out bursts can be very damaging to marriage, what she is doing to you is much worse. Adultery is about as abusive as it gets.

I would contact an aggressive men's rights attorney and countersue on grounds of adultery. This way, the OM will have to be subpoenaed into court to give sworn testimony about his adultery. In discovery, he will be forced to turn over his emails and cell phone logs pertaining to his adultery.

If you speak to your wife, be sure and tell her you will be doing this. See, she is hoping to scare you into submission by filing for divorce. You need to disabuse her of that notion.

Doing this makes it likely she will back off. Right now, she is hoping to scare you off from interfering with her affair but you can't let her succeed if you want to save your marriage.

Also, by exposing to the OM's parents, you have ruined her future with the OM. His parents will be unlikely to allow her to darken their doorstep. If the OM were my son, there would be hell to pay and he would never bring some skank into my home.

I suspect this is why your WW and the OM were so terrified of your exposure. The OM has decent, caring parents who won't tolerate that bullcrap. So many parents don't give a rats [censored] about their kids and rationalize their lack of care by saying stupid things like "I just want him to be happy." My response is always, "I guess we should be grateful he is not a serial killer, huh?"

Make sure you expose to his co-workers, no one likes a cheat. If his parents are involved this will pop your wifes bubble of happy ever after. If you do meet them do not discuss your relationship with your wife, all that is discussed is his interference in your marriage and his abuse of his senior position to take advantage of her. Have evidence ready including her admission, refer to the MB programme to recover a marriage ensure they know the marriage cannot recover while the affair is in progress. If they mention the divorce enlighten them this occurred after you let them know, she is in the fantasy and fog land.

See a good lawyer, be calm and ensure she knows you will be fighting for your marriage. A good legal head will counter file and make life for her and the OM very uncomfortable.

Do not be despondent this does happen, so stay on track.

Agree. Be sure and emphasize over and over again that THE AFFAIR LED TO THE SEPARATION AND YOU ARE TRYING TO SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE.

Illinois is an alienation of affection state. GF

Someone correct me if I'm wrong: isn't it the law that a defendant has to be served with divorce papers? Don't they have to be delivered and signed for?

Indeed I to thought divorce papers had to have a signed receipt, get a good lawyer just in case. Play hardball your sole focus is to save your marriage.

That is very odd.. I have NEVER heard of divorce papers being left under the door. That is why I asked if they were REAL.

You get served with divorce papers, they don't get put under your door. The BEST and most underhanded thing you can do is pretend you didn't get them. THAT is why people get served.

They aren't put under your door.

This all stinks of a "do it yourself" divorce and she's hoping you fall for it.

I would get a lawyer, counterfile on grounds of adultery, and sue the other man for alienation of affection. TAKE big time advantage of that.

I was just re-reading an earlier post about empathy and how I didn't have empathy for her when she was crying out for help and asking for marriage counseling. I agree. She's one of these people that cries during any argument and I think eventually I started becoming numb to it. And arguing for me was always cathartic for me so I was able to get everything out, while she always held everything in. She did tell me what was troubling her, but I never listened. The things we have to go through to learn our lessons...

I will be calling lawyers in the AM and plan on countersuing for adultery and try to sue the other man for alienation of affection. She also lied about how long we've been separated probably to speed up the time period to get divorced so gotta challenge that as well.

You're doing the right things to protect yourself, but this doesn't ring true. You have to be served with D papers. Things don't just get slipped under doors.

If she asks you, deny.

24 hours since I exposed..no angry email or anything from her...hope somebody says something to her

received email from their boss...he referred to a level higher..we'll see what happens

Ohhh. NOW the D papers under the door make sense. That's her shot back at you for exposing. Well done, abc. You hit a nerve.

Lawyers don't turn things around that quickly. Seriously, this is all a false game. There is no official D filed unless you get served.

Just pretend you didn't get them. In fact, perhaps you can call and say hi and act like nothing has happened.

If she confronts and asks about papers, you say, "I haven't been served with papers, so I don't know what you're talking about."

If she presses, say it again.

ITA with HTLD. This is your WW's response to your exposure. There is no attorney. There are no D papers. The process just doesn't work that fast. She's being questioned and is pissed. Good job on exposure.

I agree. There is something very funny about those "divorce" papers. I bet if you consult a lawyer he can easily see if papers were actually filed.

I think it was a RUSE to shut you up.

Ignore his messages. He's wetting his pants & beads of sweat are forming on his forehead as he sees his career potentially beginning to spiral around a porcelain bowl. Let him wet & wait. Don't get involved in back-n-forth exchanges with him that give away your game plan. You want him wondering & worrying about when the next shoe is going to drop on his head.

abc, there may be a way you can find out more about the authenticity of these papers. Your county may have a website for domestic court cases (most do, anymore.) Go online and google your county and state, and add 'domestic cases.' Type your name in the box. If it's been filed you'll see it.

I still think it's fake and is your WW being pissed.

she filed the papers on 1/12 with a real lawyer..i don't know why they put it under the door but i'll be talking to lawyer tomorrow

still no response from wife about exposures...

she took down all our pictures together on facebook, changed her last name back to maiden name

can anyone point me to any success stories that have similar stories to ours?? i know this stuff takes time but still... thanks

Normal WW response to rage after exposure. Sit back and watch how crazy she will react. All bluster on her part.

You see WW is an addict and you have taken away her source of addiction. All addicts will rage so they get their source back in your WW case her OM.

Sit tight all BH's o through this. Hurts to put iodine on a cut. You have just poured the whole bottle on WW affair. Stings as it kills the affair germs.

ABC098,

Exposure is working just like you want it to, it takes months, I want you to focus on the big picture to save your marriage somewhere down in the future.
Your wife need to work through all she is feeling, she is feeling that she has to be accountable for all her decisions right now, decisions that aren't viewed as loving or moral. She is hurting for what she has done to you and your life together, she is mad that she was caught, she is angry with OM for his part in all this. She is probably just disgusted with who she has become..........
She will do a lot of self reflection and go through many emotions, she will be mad at first..........and she will show you......and that is what she is doing now.
Then she will calm down and realize what she has done......
Then she will have to think about whether the OM is worth all this for, is he the man that can meet all her needs, is he as great as she had imagined him to be..
Then she will have to decide where her future is going to be and with whom.
This takes time, just be sweet and loving if you do speak to her....
Just keep telling her that you understand she made a mistake and that you will forgive her and you would be willing to make the marriage a great one for the two of you........
Tell her you will never give up on her that she is worth it.
Then you sit back and see how she processes all this herself......

ABC,

can anyone point me to any success stories

Yes, YOU are a success story, you did all that you could to fight for your marriage, you have also removed all claim of legitimacy if OM and your W want to make it as a couple.

Time and exposure will kill the relationship between OM and W.

One other point is that while you say you have had a poor response to the facebook exposure, OM does NOT KNOW THAT and likely feels like a parriah.

Actually quite of few of the WW stories on her sound like yours even for some of the WW posters who are now shocked and appalled at their former behavior.

God Bless
Gamma

I know this will take months..just really hard
plus i really only have till june anyway because then i'm moving across the country for a job (we were supposed to go together before all this)

jessitaylor: your footnote says your grateful for finding this site..was it during your affair or afterwards?

also should I be contacting my wife in anyway, we last emailed late last week

abc, that is just perfect timing. Because if she doesn't end her affair by then, then you have no marriage anyway and it will be the perfect time to go into Plan B.

In the meantime, you have months to work on killing her affair and attracting her back.

The hopefulness meter on your situation went up 1000% AFTER your exposure to the workplace and the OM's parents. Your exposure was a MAJOR BLOW to the affair and I suspect it is in the throes of death right now. You just have to sit back while the affair crumbles and be a soft place for her to land.

When she contacts you I would tell her that you love her very much and would be willing to give her an opportunity to earn your forgiveness under certain conditions. Let her know you are not interested in a loveless marriage that is vulnerable to an affair and this is what it will take to interest you:

1. she ends all contact with the OM for life - even if it takes leaving that job

2. she affair proofs your marriage, ie: becomes completely transparent and ends all opposite sex friendships

3. you fall in love again using this program of recovery

THIS is what it will take to recover your marriage, abc. Anything less than this will be a crippled version of your pre-affair marriage which will certainly lead to other affairs. So, be choosy and don't settle for less. To do so would be to damn yourself to a unhappy, loveless marriage.

And there are many, many success stories here. Situations that were much worse than yours that turned around. There are so many I don't even know where to start, but a recent one was Wheelspinnnig and his wife SapphireReturns.

abc,
I am grateful for marriage builders, I came here listened to people like MelodyLane and others and they gave me my strength to live through what I was living with and to self reflect and understand that what happened did happen because something wasn't right in the marriage.......
The site let me vent, let me whine and gave me the strength to do what I had to. I also realized I wasn't the only one that felt my life was being ripped from me.
There are a lot of great folks and a lot of stories to draw from, we are all different, from all over the world who share in a common goal, Marriage and keeping our families together.........
It easy to just walk away, it's a lot harder to fight for what is ours........this place just helps you get through it and if it doesn't work out we are better people for it and more capable of having a successful relationship in the future...
You want to fight then follow the plan and pray like the rest of us do for you and hopefully you will come out in a more positive loving relationship with your wife......I would Plan A the best you can until June and then if nothing has changed Plan B will take effect when you move..........

I just read your entire thread from one end to the other. Literally it was all I could do to not stand up in the office and cheer when I read you exposed and OMs parents flew in to stop the affair. WAY TO GO!!

You want a success story, just wait a bit and work the plan and you will have one. I exposed a month ago and I promise you this is the only shot you have - not exposing is certain death to your marriage. You did the RIGHT THING.

The affair is badly wounded. You would never have been able to do that any other way. If you listen you can still hear the secondary explosions going off at their work, with his family.

Good for you! Seriously, I read the thread after my last post worried you would be one of the guys who calls it off at the last minute. I AM SO PROUD OF YOU and we never even met!

Hang in there, when she wants to talk about it, shes going to be real mad. Try not to laugh - because you will want to believe it or not. Try not to LB, just tell her the standard "i am fighting for you" and nothing else. Name rank and serial number only. Remember you are not talking to your wife - its a WW from the planet X.

This is awesome, I am so happy about how this is going. I know you can't see it yet, but trust me you will.

I just had to go back and read this again...thats the best thing I think I've ever heard.

his parents never emailed me back or called me to meet...i'm hoping they really did meet with OM and it wasn't just some fake email to get me off his back...

I would put in a call to their home to ensure it was them.

On the other hand, they just want to clean up their mess, not talk to you so maybe they won't call. And that's OK as long as they actually got the message.

ABC,

his parents never emailed me back or called me to meet...i'm hoping they really did meet with OM and it wasn't just some fake email to get me off his back...

This almost doesn't matter your exposure has shamed him to his parents and whatever relationship he has with your W will be tainted in their eyes.

They will no longer be able to claim that they got together after the divorce, and the divorce was because the H was abusive or didn't care or worked too much.

God Bless
Gamma

Planning out my strategy with the divorce stuff..basically I think I'm going to try and delay it for a few months and then separately sue the OM for alienation of affection. Originally I was thinking about making adultery as a grounds for divorce but doesn't really seem like it'll do any good.

Why? Are you in a no fault state?

NO, you should sue for adultery and then, if you DO go all the way to divorce, it will be on record that your marriage ended because of the adultery, which will help in an alienation of affection lawsuit.

By countersuing on the grounds of adultery, your attorney will be able to depose the OM and subpoena all telephone and email records.

As a bonus, being dragged into your divorce will most likely cause the OM to look upon your WW as being more trouble than she's worth and drop her like a hot potato.

would alienation of affection do the same thing? i'll have to ask my lawyer i guess

i live in a fault state

Just wanted to add something else...to me and my family it also doesn't make sense when now she is saying she's been unhappy for a really long time...my dad looked at a her phone records and in september she only texted/called me and her mom..a month later the other guy basically took over for me....the only thing that really changed was the affair...

abc098, why are you running scared?

You are getting great advice.

Why fight with one hand tied behind your back?
How do you expect to sue OM if your D was not granted by the courts because of infidelity?

There will be no point in suing the OM after the D because you will of not saved your marriage, and the courts rarely award much money.

Time to man up.

If you don't have any balls go down to wally world and buy some.
In their pharmacy dept, 3rd aisle, on the right hand side, two to a box.
Then pick up a bottle of testosterone on the other side of the same aisle.

It's very typical. It seems to be a line that ALL WSs use. It's like they pass around a handbook, or share the same brain(and not a very good one at that ).

This is some of the things we are talking about when we say that a WS is "in a fog." They "see" things differently. It's a history re-write. It's part of the things that they say to themselves to convince themselves that they aren't doing anything wrong. Don't buy into it. Sure you two may not have had a "perfect" relationship, but the A is what is killing it now.

Just stick with your plans, as laid out by the vets, and either way, you will be just fine.

It makes perfect sense when you understand that she's lying about her marital past. This is call rewriting history. In her little, foggy wayward mind, she knows that she can't very well say "I'm perfectly happy in my M, so I'm having an A." She's got to change history to justify her A.

You and your dad are correct in your perceptions. Rewriting history is a classic wayward behavior. They do this in order to justify the unjustifiable. The loony logic goes something like this: "I have been unhappy for a long time, therefore, I am entitled to an affair." No sane person has figgered out that "logic" yet, but that is how it works in the mind of the wayward!

In Illinois, if there's divorce under irreconcilable differences, the court can order counseling if one party wants it

maybe i can tell her this and convince her to do a few telephone sessions with harley? anyone think this would work? i'd have to ask her nicely obviously...can't let it be a selfish demand love buster

There is no harm in recommending counselling and I do strongly advocate this to be with Dr Harley however as your wife is still in the affair any counselling is not going to help. Are you able to assess what is happening between her and the OM, if you are confident and I would say you should not be, then by all means speak to her about counselling. What may help you is to have one session yourself and explain your situation.

yeah i was thinking maybe a counseling session would convince her to stop the affair...i asked once last week but maybe if i phrase it as being required by the court then maybe...

also any suggestions of a good thread that maybe my WW can read on here that may help her come out of the "fog"...does that ever help?

At his stage it would do you more harm if your wife is on here, how do you know if the affair has stopped. Her being here let's her read the advice given to you to save your marriage, she in turn speaks to OM and they counter it.

If she speaks to Dr Harley soon then great this does not mean she will stop the affair. Verify first if she has stopped the affair

Do not tell your WW about MB. She won't be open to it, nothing she reads on here will help her in her fogged out state, and she will try to use the posts against you in a D.

So keep her out of here until she defogs some.

Get her the books and the surveys, but don't tell her about the forum.

abc098,

Counseling will do absolutely NO GOOD while she is in the affair. I would recommend that YOU call Steve Harley for help on what to do.

If she has indeed filed for divorce, do what I, along with others, have already recommended: COUNTERSUE on grounds of adultery, which will allow you to make the OM somewhat miserable...which will then cause a LOT of trouble within the affair. If your marriage ends in divorce, you can then file an AOA lawsuit against the OM with the reason for the divorce being on public record, which will help your AOA case.

You defintely SHOULD let the OM know that you WILL be filing suit against him.

If this is a workplace affair, you MUST inform HR and his bosses of the affair. Do not just send ONE letter. Send a letter to the head of HR and cc the owner, president, v-presidents,manager...whomever. The more people who get a copy of this letter, the less likely it is to be swept under the rug. So what if your wife gets fired? If you can put an end to the affair, she would have to no longer work with him anyway.

Plan A your wife, but do not forget the stick of Plan A.

Do NOT Plan A the OM (or enable the affair by tippytoe-ing around)...make his life as miserable as you can!

Also, DO NOT BRING YOUR WW to MB!! AFTER you bust up the affair and AFTER she is committed to recovering your marriage, THEN you can bring her here.

To bring her here now is to give her your entire battle plan.


So, STOP THINKING SO MUCH, or you'll be in bigger trouble than you are now! Pay attention to what people who have already been there and done that are trying to advise you!

And if you are going to go for the Divorce.

DO NOT WAIT to get phone records, texts, etc.

Cell companies are notorious for not keeping Text messages for longer than 2 weeks.

But, they won't just give them up either.

1) If you have a joint plan, or if its your plan, call them and request copies of all text messages for your wife's phone.

2) If they won't give them to you, consult with an attorney to get a subpoena for the phone company. Then, they are legally obligated to turn over the records, as much as they have (well, you may need to specify a date, but make it very, very broad).

Companies don't tend to ignore subpoenas.

If cell phone companies don't keep texts for more than 2 weeks, I'm screwed. She changed cell phone plans pretty much two weeks ago.

I've got the stick part down, but it's hard doing the carrot part when she doesn't live with me anymore, and we have no reason to see each other. I guess I can email and see if she wants to get coffee etc, but even then the last couple times I've seen her we both feel so awkward, I can't even think of stuff to talk about. It'd be better if we would do some activity together but that's definitely not gonna happen. Any suggestions?

Its not 100% confirmed, mind you. Thats just what they tell us normal folks. Some companies say its just days they keep them, some say weeks...nobody really seems to know, though.

Just took a closer look at the phone records....she didn't contact OM at all in september. End of september we took a trip to vegas for a work related conference where OM was there. They were texting at that time, however on the last night of the trip we had the worst fight of our relationship. She left the room that night and I saw text messages with OM till the AM, and continued texting many times a day everyday since then. She was pretty much distant since that fight, and we continued to fight a lot more in the next few weeks primarily cause she was distant in my opion. About 3 weeks after the initial fight is when she asked for counseling. She probably knew at that time what she was doing or about to do I guess.

Just sucks how fast life can change. I keep thinking if we hadn't had that fight how different things would be right now...

Not to say it justifies the affair, but she certainly could have been unhappy for a very long time before the affair started. There are many stories of people who are unhappy or unsatisified yet they stay married for years and years. Just take a look at the Marriage 101 forum on this very board. People don't necessarily jump into an affair as soon as they are unhappy.

Don't put too much weight into that Vegas fight. The fight didn't cause the affair, her poor boundaries did. If it hadn't been that OM after that fight, it would have been some other OM after some other event.

All she had to do was tell me she was unhappy and why...i actually needed to hear the words unhappy or something equivalent for whatever reason...i wish that had happened or that i had the self-awareness to realize

It is the rule, rather than the exception, that the WS "rewrites history" to greatly exaggerate the length and breadth of their "unhappiness." A 6 month spell of unhappiness suddenly turns into "I have never been happy our entire marriage" or "I have been unhappy for years" even though the BS will have evidence to the contrary.

It is because they are comparing their entire marital history to a new point of comparison based on a FANTASY: an affair. Plus, it sounds so much more dramatic to say "I have been unhappy for years" as a justification.

It is very typical that the BS will have actual evidence that the WS was happy just as abc describes. WS' are notorious liars who are looking for any justification possible.

abc, don't worry about it. As I described above, it is probably mostly lies. Waywards are notorious liars who typically manufacture justifications.

The past is not important, what matters is the future.

Hind-sight is always 20/20 my friend....

Whatever happens, though, you WILL be a better man for it.

You'll either be better in your current relationship..or..when you start a new one, you'll be a better partner for that person.

You have already gained some measure of wisdom from this.

Keep positive. And keep telling yourself

I will be ok, no matter what.
I am a better person, no matter what.

I seriously doubt a counselor would ask her to stop her affair. Why would they do that? Most counselors encourage their clients to basically follow their heart. If her "heart" is set on her affair and ending her marriage that is what they will help her do. Then it will be almost impossible to convince her to end her affair.

Rarely will you have a wayward give you an opportunity to head off an A. Many become unhappy only after the A starts. If she told you she was unhappy, then you would have the opportunity to fix things. But wait, then the A wouldn't have happened.

You, my friend, have been placed on "double secret probation," a line used in the movie Animal House that perfectly describes how a wayward puts your relationship on probation without even telling you.

i just realized i basically asked you guys how to speak to my wife...that's sad

No, don't think that way - we've just got the luxury of having a little distance and a less emotional perspective. Sometimes that's a good thing to have and you're too close to her to have that right now.

Hey finding yourself in this situation will make any guy question everything he ever did, and every instinct he ever had. I guarantee it has happened to me and every other man on this board in our shoes. This plays tricks with your mind.

Thats the purpose here. To give you strength you can't raise on your own - no one could.

tomorrow will be a week since i've talked to her...i was thinking about seeing if she wanted to hang out after the weekend for a big...i doubt she'll say yes though...if she says no then what do i do? just continue to see what exposure does if anything?

it seems like i'm the only one trying to save the marriage...it seems to me everyone else including her parents have kind of given up...my family is supporting me, but given her actions are thinking it's most likely all a waste of effort and time and it'll just take me longer to get over all this

Any update on whether the divorce papers were actually real?

In plan A you don't pressure only offer. Ask if she wants to hang out. No harm if she says no, say OK just thought I'd ask.

No love busting, no disrespect. If shes still seeing OM you continue on plan.

Is affair over? Did exposure kill it? Did you ever hear from his parents?

You need to be patient, sometimes this takes time. Keep working the plan, drag heels on divorce.

Divorce papers were real.

Talked to her dad today, she told him that she has stopped seeing OM. I don't believe it. This from a girl that used to respect her parents so much, never lied etc, but she has turned into a different person with the affair, just like so many people here have pointed out.

She also told her parents she wants nothing to do with me, so probably won't be asking her if she wants to hang out just yet. Give it a couple weeks I guess.

Never heard back from his parents. Don't know if they really flew into town to see him. May have all been a lie.

I have no idea if affair is over. There's no real way to know.

Meeting with attorney on friday. Will ask him to delay as much as he can and will also be counterfiling on grounds of adultery as suggested here.

Given that she wants nothing to do with me right now (i emailed her a couple days ago and she hasn't replied), I was thinking of having no contact with her for the next four weeks and then her bday will come up...and then seeing if she wants to go out.. what do you guys think?

If your gunna plan B then be in plan B and stay dark...even if it is her bday

abc, I would send her a nice email every so often with something like "just thinking about you." I think you should invite her out on her birthday, but also look for other opportunties for contact.

@abc098 -

Follow Melody's advice. Look for opportunities.

Your WW is probably like 99 out of 100 WW. She is a cake eater. What this means is that she has been enjoying OM meeting some of her ENs and you meeting her ENs.

She has not gone cold turkey from letting OM meet her ENs, unless OM has broken it off with WW.

In either case you are ready for using Plan A.

Do you know what the four Intimate Needs are?

What are your top 5 ENs?

What are WW top 5 ENs?

If you don't know the answers then start reading up.

Her top 3 ENs are
1) affection - ain't happening from me obviously
2) admiration
3) recreational companionship

i guess if i had to pick a 4 and a 5 it'd be domestic support and then maybe conversation or vice versa

maybe i should just give her that questionnaire...what do u think?

I couldn't find info on the four intimate needs..could someone provide a link

thanks

ABC,

The very harsh reality is that you have no leverage with your WW since you have no kids. There is no "family" to save. There is nothing to negotiate other than the few assets left to split up.

SH acknowledges that there is little chance of saving a marriage when no kids are involved and one of the parties has moved out.

By no means should you give up if you don't want to, but I simply wish to illustrate the very ugly reality you're facing.

I think you should follow Melody's advice of an email once in a while, but you have a woman that has emotionally checked out and who really has little to know motivation to return to you to restore something that really hasn't lasted very long. To her, there's new and exciting men out there for her to meet and you're not it. She's single in her mind.

I'm in no way justifying what she is doing. I'm just trying to illustrate the nasty reality.

I'd give SH a call and see what he advises. He's always willing to help a BS out.

I firmly believe that trying is a process which eventually leads to acceptance for guys trying to save a short marriage with no kids. The reality eventually sinks in.

You're in the denial stage of grief right now. Is there hope? Perhaps. Eventually. Down the road. She may find the dating world tough and remember the husband she once had who treated her well.

I don't say any of this as criticism. I think it's good you wish to try. I only wish to throw my two cents, based on what I've seen on these boards over the years.

We're here for you to help process that grief and to offer advice on ways you can attempt to save things.

I realize it's 99.9% over...everyone else (my family and friends, her family and friends) knows its 100% over...but i just don't want any regrets down the line of not trying..i'm slowly moving on, instead of crying 10 times a day, i'm only doing it once every few days, i know life will go on without her...plus I'm learning either way so i guess that's good

I may think about giving SH a call, but I'm assuming he's gonna give the same advice you all have been...

He may give similar advice, but it's still nice to talk to someone. It just makes you feel better sometimes....

emailed her the emotional needs questionnaire...see if she gets back to me

Met with lawyer today...said he can get the divorce extended for 4-5 months..

Also asked about alienation of affection suit and lawyer stated he would need a 5000 retainer...don't think i'm gonna do it...plus i don't know if it would actually get him to leave wife alone

I don't hear the fat lady yet, so chin up.

Whats the latest news on effect of exposure?

WHat else have you done to improve yourself in plan a?

Lots still to do...

Do as Reynolds said to do. Work on yourself and what's the outcome of the exposure?

Fwiw, I ended up divorcing my unrepentant xwh. It was what had to be done, but knowing I did 100 percent of all I could do and more, gave my soul peace. Plus I owed my child and family doing just that. Believe it or not, your ww needs you to do that.

In the end, when you give your all, you have peace with either outcome. It's good. If you D, then you move on with NO regrets. If you heal with your ws, then you move on and have a healed marriage.

Either outcome ain't bad imho. I used all the knowledge I gained from MB and it helped me become the re-vamped me I am today. After being single half a decade, I ended up meeting the right guy and our M is based on the right stuff! MB was the best!

No news from exposure really. All I know is that the affair was referred to some other office at their work for investigation.

Just remembered she has a cousin who's husband had an affair so I'm gonna contact her for some possible advice/help.

As far as working on myself, I have read marriage builders nonstop learning about the love bank, emotional needs, love busters etc. Made it to the gym for the first time since all this started last week. Was difficult, had to come back home after 15 minutes.

Since wife has decided on radio silence with me, I'm writing emails every 3 days with some words of admiration or affection as I believe these are high on her emotional needs. Once every week or so, I'll see if she wants to hang out. If still no response after a month, then I'll have to reassess I guess.

I dont think I've ever looked at any website as much as I do this one. I'm on at least twice an hour looking for additional responses. Somehow it just makes me feel better...

I've been on here for 5 years, despite what my name says. Long story. But I've gone from miserable to doing just fine.

Being among people who have been there, understand where you are and are supporting you is a good habit.

Another critical thing about this site is that we don't know your wife, but we know your wayward. KWIM? We've got the luxury of distance plus experience. It's a good place to get perspective.

OK radio silence, so shes still mad. Might be weeks or months, or maybe never. But you did the right thing.

Either way if she is gone you didn't lose her because you exposed. IF shes gone for good, BIG IF, then she was already gone.

Work the plan without being needy. Work on yourself. And this is her fault, no one elses.

Anybody think it's a good idea to mail her any of the Harley's books and maybe she'll read it and have some ah-ha moment? If so which one would you pick?

No. Not a good idea right now.

No thats pushing way too hard. In fact emailing every three days is pushing it. You should make sure she knows the road back is there, and work on yourself. Let her see you doing it.

Shes watching, and if she went a week without an email she might start feeling like she needed to check in.

You are trying to strike a fine balance here. Mailing her a book is at best way too pushy, at worst makes you seem desparate. _ you're not.

Totally Agree!

I think he said he got an email from "their" boss (WW and OM's) and that boss is referring it to a higher level.

At this point, you should follow up with a copy of that email attached to a LETTER that you mail to the company. Send it certified mail and keep copies of what you sent and the bosses' acknowledgement. You can use this later if you need it.

I don't think you've been served either and I've worked in the legal field for many years. Service is usually in person by a disinterested third party or through certified mail in some states.

In fact, I went and looked this up under the Illinois statutes. It says:


Here is the statute, if you want to read the whole thing.
Illinois Service of Process

What did the attorney say about service? Did he think you've been served? Did the subject even come up? If not, you should go back to him and let him know that you were not officially served and that the papers were slid under your door. The lawsuit will get dismissed within a certain amount of time if she can't prove "legal" service or give a good reason that service is not possible.

Hopefully, your attorney hasn't already filed an answer, which would make service a moot point.

He said it probably wasn't served correctly but he just kind of blew it off...but nobody has been back to serve it (i've been at home) so it seems like they think it is proper...he hasn't filed anything yet...i basically told him that i want to delay the divorce still mid may or so...i'm not really contesting anything so he said he can just use discovery of assets to try to delay it and shouldn't be a problem...i'm not counterfiling for anything...

As far as contacting her, I'm thinking of just emailing her near the end of this week to maybe hang out..and if she still doesn't respond not contact her for two weeks...i honestly don't think she'll contact me first...it's all a game really...who knows if what i'm doing is right or what she's thinking when I email her

It shouldn't be difficult for your attorney to check the court dockets for anything concerning you. I think she just slid those papers under your door.

Um, abc? I think all the emails and the book are a little much. Let's see what everybody says about that.

Huh? Are you sure you understood him? Service is one of the most important tasks in a lawsuit. Until it is done properly, the case cannot move forward.

I agree with MB, you can check online for most counties to see if the docket reflects service.

A game? Really?

One of the biggest mistakes a BH makes is to appear too needy and chasing after his WW. Plan A which includes letting her know that you are WILLING to meet her needs but be careful about overdoing it to the point of stalking.

I wouldn't send her any books, you can't educate a WW.

checked docket..says it was properly served...don't know if that can be contested

So how often should i try contacting her? once a week, once every couple of weeks?? or wait for her to contact me? i just don't know

Lets stop panicking for a minute. Lets work on you, go to gym, eat right, take care of yourself.

When you're in a good place, then lets write WW.

She can smell fear. You did the right thing, showed leadership and a spine and now you are endangering that.

Take it easy!

I don't think I'm panicking. I honestly just want a plan of action..what's the best thing to do...

I'm doing much better...learning to be alone again..eating, starting to work out..etc

thanks

I talked to her cousin yesterday who herself was a BS. She seemed to understand my story. Said she would talk to my wife and her parents. See if that does anything...

she sent this email to my parents today:
HI
So i just want to send this last email to you all. I know you have your thoughts and ideas about why this marriage is over, and i'm sure they are wrong. i know they are wrong. abc098 is convinced that it is because of this "other guy" and either you have helped convince him or he has convinced you of this as well. but please realize and understand that he has nothing .... NOTHING .... to do with why the marriage is over. maybe you don't want to believe that your son could ever treat someone the way he did, but he did.

just think if abc098's sister was ever treated that way. u would hopefully never want that. but .... your son ... treated me badly. he belittled me, treated me like a child, manipulated me into believing that i was always wrong. and you and he may have gone to those stupid forums with these "experts" saying that i made all this up. but ask him .... did i cry a lot. did we fight a lot. did he ignore me when i cried. did he tell me that i make myself feel that way. did he get mad at me when i wanted to buy something. did he forbid me from buying things as stupid and small as a fruit bowl.

our last night in vegas ... did he tell you what he called me. let me tell you. we fought because i lost some money. but he did too. he refused to show me any sort of affection, not even hold my hand. i got upset. so like always he got mad at me for getting upset. and when i brought it up again .... we fought ... he yelled at me ... made me cry .... didn't care i was crying ..... yelled at me more ... and then he had the audacity to call me a [censored]. yes a [censored]! is that right? no! that was my last straw. i can not and never will get over that.

now .... abc098 has convinced himself of this "other guy" and you know what ... all he wants now is revenge. and its hard to believe that you would allow/encourage his behavior of
1. sending threatening emails

2. airmailing (sending a letter via us postal service) to this "other guy's" parents making them worried for his life

3. contacting my work .... my colleagues new and old .... the faculty .... the administration ... ur personal life out in front of your professional life. is that right? i mean how would you and he feel if I told his work how he is acting?! i never would because i'm not like that but still. and that is why he has a restraining order to never contact work again
4. and this lawsuit .... he is doing it to get revenge .... but does he and you not realize that this is a public record for anyone to get a hold of and it could hurt himself .... all this lawsuit is is treating me like a piece of property ... which is how he treated me most of our relationship

i mean help him move on and not in a vengeful way .... he's upset because he has been hurting for months ... when i had been hurting for years ... and no matter what he said i did tell him many times. you can support him without supporting wrongful actions.


i'm sure you are still not convinced but you will never be. but its time to move forward and these actions are not helping.


my family will never allow me to return to someone like him.

Kneejerk response to exposure. We told you she would be livid.

The best response your parents could give is:

"We condemn your adultery. We support our son's efforts to save his marriage."

That should be the end of it.

Ride out the storm. This is a normal response to exposure.

But again, what is your motivation to save something with someone you have no kids with?

ITA. They should not get into a dramatic back-and-forth with her. She is obviously spinning this in true wayward fashion. She knows it. They know it.

The less they say, the better. I would add only one thing (see my red insert below.) Let's not let her wiggle out of her true marital state.

I love her. I think the "fog" is contributing a lot to this. I made mistakes as she mentioned and I want to be able to correct them. This is not my wife, she is an alien and I want my wife back.

Plus either way, right now there's not much I'm actively doing. The exposure is done. She's not talking to me anymore and I've been advised here to not contact her very often so if it ends up working out it does, if not it doesn't.

Was she correct about the restraining order being filed against you?

I feel like my parents should address some of the issues she has raised as this is the first time she's even talked to them since I found out about the affair

There's no restraining order...i'm assuming I would be notified as well

Arguing with her would be pointless.

BTW: I loved my crazy ex fiance too. I'm eternally grateful I never married her.

I also loved my wayward ex. Glad she's out of my life as well.

Love isn't enough. The question for you is this:

Where do you stand on issues that truly matter? (Such as religion, kids, parenting philosophy, ideas on marriage, roles of men and women in marriage, etc.)

Those are the things that are the glue that keep a marriage strong and together.

Being married to a woman who feels it's ok to have lots of male friends (my ex W) or who wishes to experiment sexually with women (my ex fiance), or who wants bad boys (ex fiance), are not good marriage material or are issues that require massive changes in ways of thinking.

Just giving you food for thought. Love is not enough. Love is a feeling, but more importantly it is a choice.

Feelings come and go. There will be moments you love your W more than she loves you and vice versa, but staying married and preserving principles in that marriage are a choice.

Hence you have the principles outlined by MB, such as radical honesty, ENs, etc.

Nothing in that note that can't be overcome. She is obviously mad, but you knew that was coming. Work on yourself and give her a couple of weeks.

That's one of the things that bothers me a lot. Our values and opinions on those things are pretty much the same. No problems with religion, both wanted kids, hadn't really discussed parenting philosophy, ideas on marriage and thoughts on roles of men and women in marriage were the same.

I truly believe if the affair never happened (although she states otherwise), we would still be living together working through our problems.

I'm assuming you mean the complaints about me. That's what I and my family tried tell her a month ago (before we knew about the affair), but she kept saying to my parents "you have no idea how I feel"...we all agree this can be worked through

You're right! Its her way of rationalizing this horrible thing she did. And because you aren't a total pr*ck all the time she has to sling whatever you did do out of scale to make it look bigger.

You aren't perfect, neither am I - but dudes don't spend 500 hours talking to strangers on some website working on their marriages if they don't love the girl that screwed around on them.

Make this work any way you can, be smart about it and you might just pull it off.

ABC,

Please understand that I say things to challenge you. You really must challenge your views on your own marriage. You may not see the problems because you are too emotionally involved and close to the situation to see the reality.

I recommend you ask a friend or family member to give you an honest to God look at your own marriage. People often see dynamics you may be oblivious to. For example, they may not like the way she talks to you. Or they may not like the way she talks to other men. Or they might have issues with the way you addressed her and the fact that you may have been oblivious to her discomfort in how you treated her.

For example, you may have thought you were simply kidding about something and that it would be taken that way, but your wife may have silently been hurt badly by what you considered �joking�.

I say this because I see it all the time in guys. We have a problem with seeing what we wish to see and get caught off guard when the wife walks away. We act surprised that she did so, but the reality is that the problems were there in front of us the whole time and we simply didn�t see them or we dismissed them.

How often have we heard a complaint from our wives and simply said, �It�s a phase she�s going through� or �That�s nonsense. That�s not reality� or �It must be that time of the month. She�s being hormonal.�

Guys are often dismissive of things while women often internalize the problems or stew over the issues that were brought up and were subsequently dismissed.

It�s a Mars/Venus thing. Men think, �She�s not complaining, so things must be ok� while women are thinking, �Why can�t he see how unhappy I am about this situation?!�

I�m generalizing, but I think there is a lot of truth to this which is why soooooo many men come here and are �surprised� by problems that existed right in front of their faces the whole time and they didn�t take action on.

The issues which led to the affair are going to have to be tackled if you are going to have any chance at all at saving your marriage. They�re going to have to be tackled regardless, even if you don�t save your marriage, or you will be doomed to repeat them in a future marriage.

Love is not enough and you need to take a good hard look at the big issues in your marriage. I was compatible with my ex W on many thing, but the big ones are the ones that I feel contributed to our downfall. She had no belief in God, which I didn�t think was a big deal at the time, yet it was critical in her value of our vows.

She liked having guy friends. I didn�t think it was good to have female friends while married.

I had very strict boundaries on my interactions with women. She didn�t.

I had strong beliefs about bearing the burden of parenting and not relying on nannies. My ex was the opposite and left the bulk of the childcare on our nanny or parents.

These were all things I felt we could work through, but they were all in one way or another cancers that ate away at the foundations of our marriage and led to her straying.

So these were BIG things I kept in mind when dating again. If you rebuild your marriage, you will have to tackle these issues. If you date again, you have to tackle these things.

Think about it.

ABC,

1. sending threatening emails
2. airmailing them worried for his life
3. contacting my work .... my colleagues new and old .... the
4. and this lawsuit

Sounds like you are teaching her what to do when OM goes on to cheat on her. Bullies don't like it when their marks fight back either!

God Bless
Gamma

LostDads: I appreciate you challenging me. What you say in your last post all applies to me. There were many times I was kidding about stuff that now I can see my wife took personally. I was definitely caught off guard. There were many times she would get angry and I would ask her if it's her time of the month. In the end I do believe our values and beliefs are similar enough that if we get through this we would work out. She is a very very sensitive person (should have known that before this but maybe just ignored it), so I would definitely watch what I say and do.

The only thing that my parents used to say is that she isn't open about her feelings, her likes and dislikes, so they were always very careful around her.

wife sent me following email tonight...made me really sad..please advise:

stop emailing me, my family, my friends, OM's family. this relationship is over. i will never get back with you ever. you are doing so many crazy things like contacting work, contacting my family, hiring a PI against me. My parents will NEVER EVER allow me to get back with you. my family and friends now are telling me they never even liked that we were together and are happy that i am not longer with you. your actions are proving what kind of person you really are and it is the kind of person i should have never been with in the first place, a controlling crazy person who still has to get his own way. if you do not stop i will make sure i get another restraining order to stop you from contacting my family and friends. Even if I am alone for the rest of my life I would never get back together with you. I'm sure that is what you are trying to do by ruining my life. and religiously our marriage is already over! don't ever contact me or my family/friends again. and stop using other email addresses to people who have blocked you. there is a reason why they are blocking your emails. OUR MARRIAGE IS OVER FOREVER! i suggest you move on. and actually get advice from real people instead of these so called "experts" from these stupid internet forums

Sounds like something i heard once....

oh yeah ... my ww said that stuff to me once... it was a bunch of crap.

I'd say that if exposure is complete... your next letter is probably a plan B letter.

Just think about something ok? You seem like a stand up guy, imagine how hard its going to be for the POSOM when he has to deal with your WW's emotions and needs?

Think about how her fantasy image of this guy is going to unravel the first time he doesn't live up to her built up image of him? You think you step on toes then? wait til he completely blows it because he just jumped into someone elses marriage with no concern but his own.

I'd say be quiet, write your plan B letter and make sure you have your lawyer be the pitbull your paying him/her to be.

If im wrong here, someone feel free to correct me.

It means that exposure is working. The affair is in danger and she is very angry about that. She's probably lying about her parents.

All these "crazy" things she mentioned are nothing compared to her cheating, remember that.

abc098, do you have a plan? I hope your WWs babble didn't scare you away?;-)

Fog-babble.
I wouldn't respond back to this because you'll just get into a back-and-forth that will accomplish little with a wayward. The only thing I would say if I were you is that you will do whatever it takes to save your marriage.

(She can't get a RO against you on behalf of all her family and buddies. Ignore that.)

No, your M isn't over, 'reliously' (whatever that means) or otherwise.

Our marriage is over "religiously"?

Really?

I didn't know that God had the standard of, "I do, until I feel like being with someone else."

Sorry, religiously she's committed adultery, which is a mortal sin punishable by an eternity in he11 for no repentance for it.

Everything you've just been fed is fog babble. Let her rant. If anything, the rant is showing effectiveness of your actions.

Don't believe what she says about her family, either. The reality is probably different.

Regardless, time to go to Plan B/D.

That means write your letter, and then sic your lawyer on her.

Her babble reminds me of things I heard. My WXW justified her actions by telling herself that she was already divorced in her head, so she could be with other men and date around. No one told me, but that was enough justification for her.

Waywards tell themselves anything they want to justify what they are doing.

Personally, I think you should be grateful this immoral cheat is out of your life. I know you don't feel that way right now, but you will eventually.

Ask your friends and family for an honest to God observation about your marriage and about your WW.

Standard WW anger at letting the world know that she is cheating.

Don't respond to these emails. Fight the urge to debate these things.

I haven't really even done plan A yet though...there haven't been any carrots..just stick of exposure

The chance for the carrot will come.

she actually did file a restraining order against me because i sent the email to her workplace....

What I posted was that she can't file a restraining order against you on behalf of anyone but herself. If her parents or other relatives want to file an RO against you they'll have to do so themselves.

Tell me about the RO she filed against you. Did you have to appear in court regarding this? What happened there?

It won't stand. You have to show some sort of threatening behavior for a restraining order to stand.

Get a lawyer and defend yourself against the RO.

She's scum. You should be glad she's out of your life.

just checked my mail and got something. Lawyer would like to be heard this saturday for petition for an injunction...sent harmful and embarassing emails to petitioner's employer and co-workers solely to harass petitioner and damager her professional reputation...could jeopardize her career...will be irreparably damaged if not enjoined from publishing and transmitting harmful emails to employers and coworkers...no purpose other than harm reputation and cause emotional harm...restrained and prevented from sending further emails...and i have to pay for her lawyer

i'm not planning on sending anymore emails anyway...but i don't wanna pay her attorney's fees and costs for this...but i guess it would cost me money to argue this too...catch 22 i guess

after this I think i'll give her space for a while...3 to 4 weeks...sound good? she needs a good amount of time to cool down if she went as far as filing an injunction against me

i honestly don't see how this marriage can be saved at this point, but i'll continue to follow the plan

Her lawyer wants to be heard where this Saturday? Courthouses aren't open on Saturdays. I suspect he is calling you into his office for a little sit-down. Attorneys are good at wording things in such a way that you can doubt yourself. (I'm not talking about any of the fine barristers on this site, just to confirm )

And you know this email is a reach. How are YOU jeopardizing her career? How will this irreparably damage her career? I would think she would keep her pants on around the office if she was really concerned about her reputation or career, now wouldn't she.

abc, this is a scare tactic she is using to get you to back off and shut up.

Were you served with a Petition for the Restraining Order? This sounds like your WW snagged a fast attorney to spook you. You aren't required to pay him, either. A court would have to order you to do that.

Is this attorney asking you to respond to this email? What did he say about that?

I'm not an attorney, but if I were you I would respond to this attorney and ask to see the Petition for the Restraining Order or the Affidavit. More than likely there won't be one.

Can you pick up an inexpensive attorney to go with you? I hate to even suggest that and have you incur any expense that you don't have to, but it's always good form to go see an attorney with an attorney - kind of takes the power play out of what her attorney is up to, IMO.

The petition was mailed to me...and yeah he's asking the court to order me to do that..and sorry i got the date wrong..he's asking to appear on friday AM...

everyone thinks i did this to be vindictive and vengeful (her family, friends)...just sucks when i only really have good intention in my heart

Do you have an attorney?

No, this isn't vengeful and you won't be ordered to pay her bills.

90% of the court battles are psychological.

I asked for all kinds of things. I didn't get them.

What you need to do is counter file, simply stating that you were following a psychologists advice intended to end the affair and you were protecting her superiors from a sexual harassment suit which could arise from the inappropriate relationship between her and a coworker.

Either way, when you counter file it would require a hearing and each side gets to present their argument.

Courts are soooo busy, that this would fall into the bottom of the pile of priorities as a "he said/she said" issue with no real importance.

Remember that family court is flooded with actual cases with important things such as custody matters.

An email letting her workplace know that she's having an affair with a coworker isn't going to be given much weight.

Trust me. I fought this battle already. This falls into the low priority pile.

abc, I don't think an attorney can compel you to go to court. Check with the county courthouse tomorrow and find out if you are scheduled to appear in court on Friday. This doesn't sound right.

Where are you supposed to go on Friday, exactly? Your document should be a summons from the court. Is it? Or is it from her attorney, asking you to meet with him?

Why wouldn't she want this exposed? Sin hates the light. She knows that what she's doing is wrong.....it needs to be brought to light. What she's mourning is the end-in-sight of her relationship with this OM. Don't think that exposing them will somehow jeopardize your chances of getting back with your wife. The reality is that if you want a relationship, then you want it to be authentic;trust me,it is not easy living with a liar and a cheat Just my thoughts....

spoke to wife's father today...both her parents are in counseling to help cope with all of this...wife told him that affair is over...told him 100% it's not..he said he will continue do whatever he can to try to stop it...also stated that he thinks wife has mentally changed...seems like he's on the same page as me with everything, but there's not really much they can do

What happened with the attorney/court thing?

i'm meeting with my lawyer tomorrow afternoon about everything..i'm going to also ask him to argue nullifying the divorce papers since they weren't served properly

also anyone have any suggestions about individual counseling?...obviously one goal would be to get her head out of her butt and stop the affair..father in law stated they're going to try and get wife to go get some...

No, what I was wondering about was that whole business with her attorney wanting to meet with you this past Friday. What happened with that?

IC will probably be a waste of time and money for your WW right now. Waywards have a tendency to spend a lot of time on self-importance in IC. Too much navel-gazing, too little ownership of any wrongdoing. They also have a terrible tendency to rewrite their history and leave out important parts that would cause the IC to scrutinize them in a negative light. I wouldn't push IC.

Found out she's introducing OM to all her friends, none of which seem to have a problem with it. Seems like a lost cause at this point, obviously exposure didn't work.

"SEEMS"

Isn't reality.


People often don't know what to say so they laugh and go along to get along. Later they talk about her behind her back and/or distance themselves.


But...some people unfortunately, don't give a crap and those are people you don't need in your live (or your marriage if you recover).


Don't worry about what other people think. Just stick to your plan and things will work out for you one way or another with or without your wife.

Mr. Wondering

Her friends are unconditional or a lot of them will be. You can't expect them to help. What about family? Whats happening there?

The only one in her family I'm in contact with is her dad. He keeps saying he won't allow the affair to continue but then she's telling him she's not contacting OM. He can't really do much except say not to do it. He really wants the marriage to work. I emailed him today and suggested something like an intervention or basically treating her like a child and living with her and monitoring her, etc. Her brothers and a cousin who she talks to all the time are basically just supporting her in her decisions...

Thats ok there will be some people who were OK with this. Keep the dad in the loop. Stop worrying about every battle. You want to win the war.

How is the working on you part going?

ABC, several times now your WW has mentioned "an internet forum". Could she be reading your thread? How would she know about this?

Are you telling us everything about what you've been up to? (i.e., emailing people, talking to her, etc.) This is important because the last thing you want to do is be charged with stalking and harassment.

You should not share this site with your WW. This thread is for you. If you feel like there is a possibility that she is monitoring this thread, click notify and let the mods know. They can help if this is the case.

The working on me part is going great. Learned a lot about how to be a better person, how to be better in relationships, learning how to improve my communication skills etc. Basically all I really needed was insight and self awareness on how destructive my behavior (guilty of all the love busters) was and I just need to practice self control. Too bad wife decided to have an affair instead of help me improve.

I think I told one of her friends about an Internet forum but I never told anyone about the website. I haven't talked with her in almost two weeks. The only person I'm talking to is her dad. Yesterday he said he doesn't know what to do about the affair cause wife isn't listening to him. We'll see if goes along with an intervention type thing. I think I'm gonna suggest HE email her friends asking for help. Maybe they'll actually listen if it comes from her dad.

I'm thinking more and more of moving on. She clearly has. I'm gonna call her on her birthday in a week and if she replies then I can continue. If she continues to ignore me, I don't really have any carrots to give her so there's not much for me to do. Plus it will take me longer to heal. Idk, just confused right now

You don't know that yet. Hang in there, stick to the plan. Either way you'll be better for it.

Drag the divorce
Don't seem needy
Work on you
Apply the carrot if and when the chance comes
Use your allies
Have your house in order

This isn't easy man, but its better than having done nothing and watched her leave for OM without a fight.

What did her dad say about this, abc? Do you think he would be willing to confront her and tell her that he will not accept this OM into the family? Because it sounds like he is pro-abc, anti-OM. Maybe you can convince him to do this? Understand that blood is usually thicker than water in most cases, but it sounds like he's been in your corner from the beginning. Maybe a well-placed directive from him to her would help at this point.

Thanks Marital as usual.

I emailed her dad last week about an intervention, and called yesterday however he's not responding anymore...wonder what's going on now...i'm going to try to call him again next weekend if he doesn't get back to me

Well after 3 weeks of no contact, I called WW today for her birthday. As expected, she did not pick up. Left voice mail. Guess she's still angry from exposure. Where do I go from here? Do I just wait and see if she calls me in the next few weeks? Obviously continue to work on myself as well. Thanks

seems like her dad has decided not to respond anymore to me, tried calling him today as well...

abc098 - I'm still a newbie here, but I think you should focus on what you can control at this point and that's YOU. Just like what you said above! I exposed about 2 weeks ago and she's still pissed off at me and will only talk about divorce.

You can't control what her family does..trust me, I had a BIL tell me that he 'feels for me' but that the family will stand behind their sister - so blood is thicker than water. The good news is that it does not appear to be a monolithic front - there are at least a couple of holdouts.

ABC098,

I agree with Andy, just keep working on yourself, sooner or later she will break.
During the time of exposure with my husband's affair, I never heard from anyone on my husband's side........and I have been in the family for almost 30 years, it's not because they don't love us, but they have to be loyal to their own......
Don't worry about that........

And when you do see her, you better have done your homework. Be in shape, have a nice haircut, dressed well but not overdressed. ETC ETC.

And do not plan to just bump into her, thats creepy. But the time will come, and we are saying be ready all the time.

Plus if this doesn't work, you will have done all you could to look after you.

Wife texted me this evening. Did she acknowledge me calling for her birthday. No. She wants my social security number to do her taxes. I think I'll ignore her. What do you think? First time she's contacted me in like five weeks.

Don't give her your Social Security number--she can list it as "not available" on her taxes. My WH lied to me to obtain my SS# and used it to file for divorce. Of all the things he has done, this lie hurt the most.

Check with your lawyer. By no means should you give her your social. She's the enemy now so long as she's having an affair and is foggy.

Let her know you will be filing separately (if your lawyer advises you to).

Then again, just don't answer.

Just checked your thread again to refresh my memory.

There's no kids in this picture.

My friend, she's out of the house. There's nothing to pull you guys together anymore to even think of having a recovery. She's in single land now in her mind.

Don't respond to her text about taxes. You still have some time to deal with that. Check with your lawyer about what to do.

you're correct there's nothing to pull us together right now

one question is how much backgrounds matter...what I mean is that WW and OM are completely different ethnicities, religion, culture, she's even vegetarian while he's not...while wife and I were the same in all those respects...we also had the same values and beliefs when it came to the big stuff...

obviously she's in infatuation stage so she doesn't care right now but those things used to be important to her...i really can't see them ending up together once reality sets in, but who knows...

just thinking out loud i guess

Why torture yourself like that? Why worry about whether they will be happy. Do not do that. Its the opposite of what we are saying.

This text is a hook. She will be angry, confused, surprised if you don't respond. SO DON"T. I doubt she will just walk off and not try to reach you again.

Its a dance, but smart about it. You might be able to get to talk to her through this.

Don't text back. But be prepared for her to call or bump into you. When she does remember, be strong, no apology for exposure. No more timid abc, no more doormat abc.

Got it?

not torturing...was just curious
no more timid abc...got it

since i've been giving you the guys the play by play...i'm planning on sending a "goodbye" email to her parents today...basically since they've been ignoring my parents and mine phone calls and emails and a way of giving me some closure...if they contact me in the future that's fine

Hi,
I guess this will be my goodbye email to you guys. I had hoped to say goodbye in person or over the phone but for some reason you guys have decided to cut off communications with me. I guess this hits a nerve for me especially since I think lack of communication is a major reason why this happened to me and WW. We never talked about problems between us outside of when we were arguing so I just assumed things were fine when WW obviously didn't. But I'm sure you guys have a good reason for not wanting to speak to me or my parents...I'm just not sure what it is. I want to say thank you for everything you guys did for me during our marriage and before that. I wish WW hadn't decided to have the affair because I'm convinced we would have had a great marriage. Our values and goals in life were pretty much the same when it came to the important things. I really think things would have worked out if we had fought hard to stop the affair, but we will never know. In my opinion, despite your objections there's a good chance that her and this new guy will end up getting married and he will become your new son-in-law. I just hope that he does not cheat on WW. He obviously has a bad character and no morals if he is willing to get involved with a married woman and I wouldn't be surprised if he does it again. Unfortunately WW is not thinking of that possibility right now. I wish you guys nothing but the best in life and hope all your dreams come true.

I agree, why are you torturing yourself with this?

That said, I believe religion, culture, background, etc. play a large role in whether 2 people will have a good relationship or not. I don't believe (and neither would the Harleys, I suspect) that anyone can be truly "incompatible" based on those things but it would certainly increase the challenge in the relationship.

My WW's AP was old enough to be her father, was atheist (we are Christian), smoked/dealt dope, was a different race, and had an autistic son just ten years younger than WW. They shared very few interests, and basically no values. Yet, she still thought they were "soulmates" for a brief while.

Waywards are certifiably insane.

I really don't think you need to send anything, but if you do keep it short. Tell them you respect them, love their daughter and wish it could be different. No apology, get the note over fast. Assume it will be forwarded to her***** SO you need to ensure it meets plan A. Not needy or timid. Get in and get out, show the strong ABC.

This is too needy, so I would edit heavily Literally I think you want three lines. And I still don't think you send ata all.

Advice taken.

You guys will think im torturing myself again but I think the following it's an interesting question: if I were to ask WW to imagine that life was absolutely perfect right now, what would she see...would she say she wished things between us hadn't gotten to the point of her having the affair or would she want us to quickly be divorced so she can live a happy life with OM.

Stop torturing yourself friend.

Get it over with - 3 maybe 4 lines and then go no contact and move on.

Take note of the lessons Dr Harley have offered to make you a better man for the next relationship.

ABC why go there? You are giving her the power.

Did you respond to text?

No did not respond to text

Good man. |Hope you are reading Andy and Stretchs threads.

just an update...had a session with S Harley a couple days ago...he said to continue to reach out to wife on a weekly basis or so

i decided to call the wife today to see if she'd want to just grab coffee...she actually picked up...said she's not ready to do that yet..said she's still extremely hurt by me exposing the affair to her coworkers...just told her it was the hardest decision I ever made but thought it was the best shot at saving the marriage...she got sad while speaking and in response despite doing my best so did I

that's it nothing else new

I am really glad you talked to Steve, I don't think you will regret doing whatever he told you.

Glad to see she picked up, thats a first step.

Its been a rough road for you ABC, glad you are still around. You will see its been rough for Andy and Stretch too, but progress comes eventually. I have faith you will be OK.

talked to her again today...how do you get through to someone that is still so angry about exposure two months out...says that "i would never stoop to that level" (she never says anything about the affair)...for some reason i decide to say the affair has made me less optimistic, my heart was broke in a million pieces..she said i made her a worse person, made her more pessimisstic, etc. She won't even go to coffee or anything with me...

she also keeps saying the affair has nothing to do with the marriage being over...obviously this is all fog babble but she really believes this i think

Ha e you considered plan B? That might wake her up

she's already moved out and basically pulling a plan B on me...just looking for other options out there

You need to tell her that as your husband, you will do whatever it takes to end the affair, as she is only destroying her life. And if the affair isn't the reason for the marriage being over, why didn't she just file for divorce?

The A is probably the only reason she is thinking this way. It sounds like her ego is very, very strong. Concentrate on being the best man you can be for YOURSELF.

Abc





NOT A VET HERE BUT IMHO I SEE this scenario as making a person who is drunk go to an AA meeting.

All you get is an angry person who is drunk. They also get nothing out of the meeting. This leads to further frustration with yourself and may lead to further resentment from either of you. Seems quite risky at this time unless something drastically changed since you last posted or SH suggested it.

Your WW sounds quite foggy yet. I thought just a few days ago she started answering your phone calls.

Has your WW truely shown any type of willingness to Recover the M? Has she expressed a desire to post?

If not your pushing will come back to bite you in the A$$.

JMO

nESRE

I agree, with Nesre, I know you are looking for progress but now shes got more ammo. If she finds your thread or finds out about exposure being part of the program prematurely it would be bad for you.

I do understand where you are coming from though. Maybe you will get lucky and she will lurk and learn or actually post. I hope at least your screen name won't give you away.

talked to her again today...
continues to state affair has nothing to do with wanting to divorce
she doesn't trust me that i won't argue, be verbally abusive i guess, etc again...not even willing to go to counseling or anything

it'd be a lot easier if i had been the perfect husband then this would obviously be fog babble....

i also asked her a hypothetical...stating if life was perfect and there was a program with a 100% guaranteed success rate of having a great marriage would you be willing to try it..she wouldn't answer and just kept saying life isn't perfect

i emailed her asking if i'm willing to earn her trust back after cheating how come she's not willing to do the same...

i'll see what she says

abc098,
affairs don't last very long, she will come around but not until she has learned what she sees now as a great relationship will fall apart when all the reality of life starts to take it's toll on that union.
all you have to do is be there to pick up the pieces, keep the lines of hope open and sit back and watch it dissolve..........

so i emailed her and one thing that i said was neither i nor my parents trust her...she got really angry..said she doesn't want to talk to me anymore unless it's related to the divorce...she wasn't willing to answer the question though obviously about how somebody could trust her after she cheated...i've never seen anger like this and constant...definitely opposite of what she was before...

she said i'm the liar by getting a private investigator and snooping to find out about her affair...fog babble

it's just kind of funny now (in a sad way)...absolutely everything i say or write makes her angry...

me trying to educate her about affairs and how it's like an addiction and rewriting of marital history was a big bust haha

this marriage is over..i know it but for some reason i just can't give up...next plan of action is just to try to get her to talk to s. harley...i think he's the last resort

at this point if she wants to get divorced, i'll let her but i'm not going to make it easy...i'll probably be counterfiling under grounds of adultery in the next couple weeks...i'm definitely not going to make it easy for her and go with "irreconcilable differences"

i might even threaten to tell everyone that her side invited to the wedding what she's done including all the sexually explicit text messages I have...this may be vindictive but at this point who gives a sh**

Don't threaten, just do it if you haven't already exposed to them. Nothing to lose, right?

ABC I worry that sending that out like that without a purpose will be as damaging to you as to her. Have you read about plan B? Based on the change in your attitude, and time elapsed as well as the effort on your part I wonder if its time. I didn't have to do it, but you do I think.

Do counterfile, do drag it out and make it painful to divorce you, but why strike out at her in a way that serves no purpose? It won't make you feel better.

Expose if anyone who should know does not yet know. Send out her texts just to hurt people...thats not the abc who loved his wife and did his best to save his marriage.

I am sorry it came to this kid. I wish you all the best - some girl will be lucky to have you.

general question: does sending gifts, flowers, etc to the WS recommended or is it seen as being needy etc...i'm assuming the latter but was just wondering

So you are not quitting then? Hows that roller coaster ride? Sucks huh? I know believe me.

Reread the section of the site on Plan A (sorry not smart enough to do links) it says don't smother, just give opportunities. But a couple of things to ask yourself. Does your wife like gifts? How did she react in the past? Did they always mean a lot to her? My wife LOVES when I bring her stuff. But early in Plan A she saw it as kissing her butt. So its a judgement call. Others might better appreciate a call. Or something else. Fill out the emotional needs questionaire for her, but don't just assume you know whats important to her. Have reasons and examples for the things you pick.

Second, how long have you been in Plan A? Is it time to take stock of any progress?

Is FIL etc back talking to you? Anything more than just texts from your wife? Whats the latest?

abc - that depends on the situation and state of your 'relationship'. Does your WW like gifts or flowers? Do you think receiving gifts is one of her ENs? You're really the only one in a position to decide. My WW does not value gifts, she's more into time spent together and life experiences. She likes cards every once in a while, so I do give them to her on the holidays and special occassions.

ABC what's new?

hi,
her family is no longer in any contact with me
my wife and me were texting and had a couple phone conversations but now she refuses to contact me again...she is in NC with me...she became angry when i tried to teach her about the "fog" etc...didn't help

back to square one at this point

No maybe not. Don't educate her - is she still with OM? Do you know that or not?

You won't get remorse or be able to explain anything to her for a long long time.

When did you make her mad? Wait a week and call again. No lectures, no pressure. Ask her for coffee if you can.

she's still with him
i was trying to use "education" to get through to her..didn't work
it's been a couple weeks...i'll try in a week to see if she'd be willing to get coffee..our anniversary is actually in a week however i don't want to contact her on that day...

Did you read section on plan A?

Make as many deposits as you can. And then go black when the time is right.

Glad you didn't send the texts. Good job.

Education never works with a WS.

Yep, figured that out the hard way

I figure I'll give her space for two to three weeks and then try to see if she wants to meet up...I'm only in the same town for 2 more months so not much time left...if it doesn't work in that time period, i guess that's that

Or you could tell her to pound sand and walk away from a woman that doesn't deserve your attention or love.

You have no kids with this woman. What's there to save other than your pride?

Seriously, she's not worth it. She cheated, you have no kids. Divorce and let her go.

Too many good women out there to waste your tears on this one.

abc,
I just got caught up on your thread and, while its true that your wife is rewriting history to justify the affair, I have seen little discussion regarding your own behavior in the marriage. It seems a lot of her claims have been written off as foggy, but you have admitted to yelling and screaming at her when she cries. Those are not the actions of a "man", meaning a man of character.

What are YOU doing to get yourself to a point where you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you won't emotionally abuse the next woman you are with? I think you should start outlining your own personal development. I would start with an actual heartfelt apology for your treatment of her and what you are doing about it to grow as a person. And do NOT even imply that such growth is related in any way to her coming back. You are doing it for you.

I have done lot of soul searching and recognize my mistakes mostly angry outbursts. Either way that's something I'm working on along with the other lovebusters.

Today is our 2 year anniversary...do I even bother emailing her or anything about it...she continues to be angry and doesn't reply to anything anyway....

Why not? Just don't educate or over do it.

Remember needy is unattractive.

I was on the radio show on 4/4/2011. I asked my brother in law to listen...he sent me an email response today, it obviously hurts...a lot:

I have taken a few days to think about what I was going to say to you aftertaking some time to ponder the radio show that you were recently on. I have of course as an older brother in law tried to be objective. I will be civil,although honest. This is of course my sister that we are talking about.

You will undoubtedly read things that will upset you and I will be bluntly honest but it is imperative you read the email in its entirety.

I want to start by saying that in the very beginning when I first heard of the separation, I, like my entire family would come to be, was shocked, not just because of the fact that it happened, but because I was worried about my sisters happiness and well-being- how this could happen to someone like her was beyond me, because if anything she had a knack for building and keeping relationships with people - and she has a real affinity to people all of whom are immediately and forever impressed by her.

I cannot say the same for you. I never liked you. [goes on to state reasons he never liked me]. Even at that time if someone were to ask me if WW deserved better, I would have answered a resounding 'yes!'

Still with me I hope?

Now - as for this 'affair'.- it exists only in your mind. It amazes me that you actually believe you are being a hero and trying to 'salvage' this marriage and are fighting against this [racial slur] as you like to insultingly refer to him in
an effort to get your estranged wife back from him because he has totally brainwashed her, and made her forgotten who she is - no - you did that - you pushed her away. But, she isn't brainwashed, and she hasn't forgotten who she is, if anything, her courage had shown her that she needed to get out and
away from you.

I was so stunned and hurt to know that wife, who has incredible inner strength, actually was driven to having feelings of dying and possibly even suicidal ideation because of your behavior and anger outbursts. READ THAT LINE AGAIN! You drove her to feelings of death. You drove her to feelings of death.You drove her to feelings of death.You drove her to feelings of death.You
drove her to feelings of death.You drove her to feelings of death.You drove her to feelings of death.You drove her to feelings of death.You drove her to feelings of death.
HOW MANY TIMES do you need to read that until it sinks into your stubborn mind?

You go to these 'experts' and shows begging for answers and are complimented and commended for your 'courage' and told to 'hang in there' like you are almost a martyr. However, did you tell any of these people the full story? NO YOU DID NOT
- as far as the radio show goes I did not hear:

-How you 'dutifully' informed work and her colleagues
about this 'affair' that she is having and embarrassed her and attempted to tarnish her hard earned and flourishing young career
-How you either had wife followed or hired a private investigator as you told her once
-How you took $10,000 from wife that you felt you were owed immediately - this really does not suggest you are interested in saving anything except 'your' money
-How you continued to harass her into trying to have coffee with you
-How wife earlier on in the year before the separation tried on at least 2 separate occasions to get you to go seek marriage counseling to which you refused in a rude manner

You get advice based on only 1/4 information - and not all truth. Trust me, if you had told the radio show any of the above, they would have asked you to seek serious help and that wife did the right thing in leaving you - they almost
turned off on you the moment they heard of the suicidal ideation - your 'martyrdom' was only hanging on by a thread at that point... at which point you divert people's attention with this 'affair' once again minimizing your abusive behavior...

It seems easy enough to do - but I ask you to put yourself in her shoes - How would you like it if someone informed your futurework placeof your abusive nature and threatened a career that you have only begun? You didn't call her program to 'save your marriage' - you did it to embarrass, humiliate, control and punish her.

I tried to be a great brother-in-law to you for my sister. I even gave you some true and heartfelt advice to save your marriage in the beginning - because I love my sister. Your antics have shown me nothing more than your continued manipulative and abusive behavior - you my friend SERIOUSLY need the counselling.

As far as I'm concerned, as far as my entire family is concerned - the marriage is over. We are behind wife 150%. As far as the 'camp' that supports you - there isn't one. In the end your own family and friends will see how you mentally abused wife and drove her away - your 'excuse' of an affair is the
only thing you can all pathetically cling to in order to somehow justify your behavior and pat yourself on the back for 'salvaging' a marriage that was already over purely thanks to you. Ask yourself - if she were to come back to you today after your continued destructive and manipulative behavior, how could you possibly move forward?

I will state this only one time - any further communication by you or your family to anyone in our family, friends, relatives, colleagues that is not purely related to the divorce will be viewed as harassment and will be taken and dealt with as such. Do not contact any of us again by any means.

dear abc,

I have just followed your thread through in one sitting. Believe me, it strikes a lot of chords.

But as for your BIL's email, I would say you needn't be hurt about at all: I'll let the veterans respond to how/what you approach this with. I can only say that I have heard it not only here but on many other similar sites that people who think "affairs arent such a big deal" - dont know it till it happens to them. Many seem to think of it as an ill of the times/societies they live in. In no way do they realise (until it were to happen to them), that it is worse than the loss of a house or even a child, or being raped. (I lost my closest friend, father figure and mentor last summer and it was nothing compared to the torrent of pain I was already going through). His belittling you about the exposure is so out of whack that it is not even worth a response. If his family and his sister were so sensitive about her career and reputation, she should have given a second thought to skanking around and f'ing another man (figuratively or otherwise) while being married.

The affair is and can never be justified by the bad marriage, no matter how bad. Your BIL is not thinking of this but, if she were so distressed, she should've left the marriage well before she started the affair.

If you had been abusive (and I've seen this many times on the forums) the abuse of the affair far overshadows it. No doubt, this is no excuse for your abuse, but it takes 2 to make a bad marriage and she is 50% responsible for the state of your marriage before the affair. Man up, take responsibility for your weaknesses and failings, but in no way, shape or form - should your BIL's words or her friends acceptance of her adultery - allow you to think that her affair is justified because of your behaviour.

Lastly, I would like to say, please take the advise of the many vets here, you cannot put any value on this advise. I'd have paid my entire lifes wages to have had this advise when I needed it most. Please, please, please do as they say and follow it up with learning from thee MB site, the Harleys books and the forums.

BR

bxhubby

(My nasty reply thought to your BIL would be) "So she was thinking of killing herself and she ends up in bed with her boss-how does that figure?"

what i've learned (besides the right way to be a husband) through this is the fine line between love and hate...a year ago she probably loved me more than anyone on the planet and now she probably hates me more than anyone....still trying to come to terms with that...i know i am biased but he states he's trying to be objective and then does no such thing....i wish i had never married her

I exposed my STBXWH affair with the military. He and OW are being investigated for adultery. I had lots of evidence, and so far it is still on going. My STBXWH was mortified by my filing the investigation. He used to tell me daily that I am the most revengeful person he met, and the investigation was nothing but me trying to hurt him. I tried to let him know I did it for our four kids so they know this behavior is never exceptable, but he doesn't want to hear that.

My MIL told him I am a horrible wife, and how could I be with someone so disrespectful to invade his privacy. OW is good friends with MIL and life is just peachy. MIL, OW, and WH cannot even begin to comprehend the devastation to my four babies (7, 5, 3, &1). MIL told WH, "You cannot help who you fall in love with." and "You deserve to be happy WH, and if that is with OW, then horrible wife will just have to accept that." "I cannot believe horrible wife will not be friends with you today. For the sake of the kids she should just get over herself. You are better off without horrible wife because she is just down right mean to you, and you deserve better."

I am so happy MIL is another country because my babies never have to see or be part of her ever again.

I do not reget exposing this to his entire unit not only in the states but also at his deployed site. He and OW will have a hard time getting their military careers in order now that all this is under their belts. Today WH and OW are in fantasy land. I am just sitting back with my babies having a great life for us.

People keep telling me there is a fine line between love and hate. The stronger the hate for someone the deeper the love is also.

My WH hates me today. I know deep down I fill many of his EN's and once he gets home from deployment away from mommy (who fills many of the same EN's that I fill) he will be hard pressed to get all his EN's from OW. OW is a horrible narcissistic woman, and all she cares about is herself. Unfortunately my WH fell into her trap. I don't see it lasting that long.

abc089, of course she hates you. But not for something you are but for interfering her affair!

Why did you ask BIL to listen the show - what was the outcome you hoped? He said he has never liked you - didn't you know that?

I think you should go to plan B. The more you communicate with WW and her relatives the more you stay in the picture for demonizing. As long as you do that, they can fuel the affair by scapegoating you. Do not allow that, remove yourself entirely from the situation. Then the affair is forced to face reality 100%.

So I asked my lawyer to start discovery so i can eventually depose my wife. I have also asked another lawyer to begin alienation of affection lawsuit. My lawyer received a letter from her lawyer to immediately end all contact (i've been emailing and texting her) or risk a restraining order or criminal charges of harassment. Guess plan A is over -- forced to do plan B.

anyone have suggestions for healing...i'm really having a hard time coming to terms with the fact that MY wife is cheating...the fact that her very traditional asian parents aren't doing anything to stop it...

it's not so much the impending divorce but the fact that she's cheating and that we never did what a "normal" divorcing couple would usually do aka try to work things out etc

thanks

abc098 - I'm sorry, I have no real advice for you. Unfortunately there are many stories like yours, just look at TimBurned and mine as examples. Neither one of our WWs have made any attempt to reconcile. TimB has filed for D and I'm hashing out a separation agreement with mine. IMVHO, My WW is headed down a pretty dark path, we'll see if she ever sees the light. She has a lot of pride and stubborness in her. I cannot control her, just like you can't control yours. At a certain point IMHO it isn't worth trying anymore either. Keep that in mind - you can't control your WW's actions. If nothing else, take control of the situation as much as you can, that way you get the best possible outcome for you.

abc098,

You are trying to make sense of something that you cannot.......your wife is deep into affair fog, I think at this point all you can do is take care of yourself legally and financially and just let the affair die a natural death, most of them die out with 2 years..........Did you send your wife a Plan B letter, stating that you would be willing to work through your issues if and when she is ready to give up the OM and commit to your marriage...........
Right now you have to build a life for yourself, do things you like, meet new friends, join some new activity........volunteer..........just keep yourself busy........
Hopefully in time your wife will come to her senses and beg you to take her back..........
one foot in front of the other for now..
jessi

You will be over this much sooner than you imagine because you have no children with this woman. Children with her would be a disaster and you would find yourself fighting for custody, going back and forth, etc.

My advice: Save your money. Don�t waste your money on alienation of affection or on discovery, deposition, etc.

Divorce her quickly and cutoff all contact for life.

You will heal better this way.

You will carry a heavy heart for a long time, but you will eventually hurt less over time and will actually go from wanting her back, to hating her, to feeling nothing for her, to complete indifference, to even forgetting she exists.

I can�t tell you how much I envy the fact that you have no kids with this woman and never have to see her or interact with her ever again.

ABC, trust me when I tell you that women in their 30�s are awesome and will make much better companions for you (if you choose wisely) once you�re done healing.

My advice to you is to use this time to find old hobbies again, take up boxing or karate to get your energy out, DO NOT DATE.

You�ll mess up potentially good relationships if you try to date right now. So take a break, focus on you and your hobbies, get in fantastic (think 300) shape, and let the healing process start by cutting off all contact.

But you will do nothing but throw away thousands of dollars with all the legal proceedings you�re wanting to undergo for someone that is simply is not worth it. There are no kids to preserve a home for. Let her go. You deserve better than this in your life.

Thank you for your advice. I'm slowly coming to the realization that I need to move on. No one is supporting the marriage from her side, friends or family. Four months out I still have to defend the exposure and everyone seems to forget shes the unfaithful one. And her family and friends are not bad people at all, nice and accomplished in their fields. But no matter how many times I explain it the fact that I exposed to her workplace is the only thing people will talk about. I guess it's only us on these forums can see that it's necessary. As long as I stay busy I do good but the second I have free time it becomes difficult again. Still can't believe she's cheating

so i never exposed to her family that lives out of country (which is most of it)...i don't think they'll really put any pressure on her to stop however that's why i never did it...at this point i feel it will just put a bigger wedge between us...any suggestions?

just want to make sure i did everything possible so i don't look back with saying "i wish i had done that"

ABC,

There is nothing you can use as leverage against her. There are no kids. There�s no real consequences to her affair since she has no custody fight nor child support to deal with. Complete silence on your end is what is called for.

Further exposure at this point would not be effective and would come off as vindictive, in my opinion.

Move on. She�s not worth it. There�s too many good women out there to worry about this one.

Seriously, why do you want this one back? What does she have that is so special that you can�t get it from another women elsewhere?

the vows i took when i got married mean a lot to me...but besides that..

this just isn't her..previously women who wore even some revealing clothes she thought were "slutty", she was also very concerned about my parents opinion of her, and "saving herself" for marriage was also very important...

reading about how an affair is an addiction and whatnot is just making it more difficult too because i keep thinking if she were a cocaine/heroin addict i wouldn't abandon her...

i have been silent with her for 3 weeks now and plan to continue to do so..my fault has been still trying to get family and friends to understand that divorce is not the answer using objective data, professional opinion etc...obviously i'm failing

either way I am healing, heck i went grocery shopping for the first time in five months (i've been eating out every meal basically) yesterday...i know life goes on...personal recovery is just taking time. It just happened so quickly...middle of september we were having a great time together at my sisters wedding...5 weeks later she was asking for her "space"..and a month after that she was looking for her own apartments...

i also hear of all the success stories on here of reconciliation and having a better marriage than ever..i want to be one of them, i'm very jealous of that...especially now that i have all the skills the guarantee a great marriage

there are other fish in the sea..i know...

you guys have all been very helpful and i appreciate it..thank you so much

Just thought I'd share an update.
My dad emailed my WW a couple days ago wanting to know what her thoughts were as we have been separated for 8 months now. My parents are also healing from this also and I guess he just needed to know what her thinking is. She still continues to justify and blame me and that she'll never forgive me for my lovebusting past and for exposing her affair, etc. She also sent a nasty email through her lawyer to my lawyer emphatically stating marriage is over, blah blah. Meanwhile her and OM continue to see each other. I believe her family even met him last month.

My mom told me about my parents marriage a couple months ago. She stated the first five years of their marriage were extremely difficult, trying to adjust to each other, lots of fighting etc. But eventually they learned and have had a great marriage since. The only difference I see between their marriage and mine is that my wife decided to have an affair.

Divorce continues.

ABC,

So sorry she's got her head stuck up her backside, but here are my thoughts.

Yes one day she WILL regret her actions, but as others have stated, she has little to fight w/you over except maybe money or assets.

I would not stop the divorce if it were me, and I would ONLY PURSUE the alienation of affection suit if there were monies lost BECAUSE OF THE AFFAIR or if the other man stole and used up joint assets with your ww in the process of the affair.

And I would bet that happened. So I'd file for that, but NOT as a route to healing the marriage or forcing the OM out, but to recoup financial assets, as divorces hurt people financially.

No kids to me equals clean break. She simply may not be marriage material. She certainly is not now. Your parents tried to communicate with her and she's clearly fogged out. Let her go. Live in PEACE.

I remarried a man last year (we just had 1st anniversary 2 wks ago)and it is ONE MILLION (and a little more) times better than before and I am so glad God took His time in bringing me to the right man when my heart was right and my head was right. My xwh was nothing but basically a dna donor so I could have my precious son.

There IS the right woman out there for you when your head and heart and soul are healed. It'll take a bit of time but hey, YOU'RE worth it.

Cut bait with this cheater and let her sink. She will. But TAKE A HARD LINE on the asset division and retain a very tough attny to KEEP your assets. If you're in a state with the alienation of affection, sue the OM for assets lost because he conspired with your wife, FULLY AWARE she was married, and destroyed your marriage.

that is the part I would not skimp on. There can be a beautiful new marriage AND FAMILY one day in the works with the right woman. But it's not now.

So, if it were me, I'd keep and recoup my assets, give the ww as LITTLE as possible in the divorce b/c of the affair, sue for divorce and HAVE GROUNDS of adultery and mental cruelty,and then begin the alienation of affection suit and SUE THE OM. At best, it will at least be a costly slap on the wrist to the affairees and maybe that way they will learn the hard lesson that affairs ARE NASTY AND IMMORAL. Even if it is the judge who has to tell them, since her family doesn't care and it seems as if posom doesn't care either.

Thank you peachy I appreciate that. It's stupid the things that trigger you. I had Sprite today for the first time today in prob a year and I started tearing up after my first sip. A flood of memories came back because I used to always (sometimes gudgingly) get her Sprite when she was sick.

Thank you peachy I appreciate that. It's stupid the things that trigger you. I had Sprite today for the first time today in prob a year and I started tearing up after my first sip. A flood of memories came back because I used to always (sometimes gudgingly) get her Sprite when she was sick.

Don't let her ruin Sprite for you. Retake that soda!

Random rant of the day: Facebook sucks when you're going through this stuff. WW and OM attended one her friend's weddings a couple weeks...the pictures especially with all these people I once considered friends and them socializing and having a great time with OM...surprisingly I just shrugged and was kind of indifferent now (kind of..)

That does suck, I found a picture of my husband and OW at a Ohio State game, having a great time last Thanksgiving, when he never called my boys to wish them a nice holiday. I think the wedding stings more!

Sorry abc, Its a hard road. My wife had an affair starting in November, exposed in February and she divorced me in June. it was fast and no remorse. She is a speeding bullet in the wrong direction right now. I have had all of her family helping me and we have 4 kids together. WW's suck.

WWs do suck. I feel so sorry for your kids. Trying to think of this whole situation positively I can be grateful it happened in the first two years of our marriage so no kids. At least your family is helping you, her family has cut contact with me, maybe it would be different if we had kids. I still remember her dad initially said he would never accept OM but after exposure he also cut contact with me so I'm still not so sure about exposure (at least in the work place). But the biggest positive is learning about my faults and stumbling onto marriage builders.

Exposure in the workplace is generally considered a good idea. Who wants two people mucking around on company time?

so last weekend I randomly decided to facebook one of her cousins who lives outside the country...we were having a decent conversation and then he asks me how myself and WW are doing...he obviously had no clue what was going on...I told him and said unfortunately WWs family are supporting it..sounds like he called them today because below is an email from WW who I haven't heard from in months:

"You have no right telling my family about these issues ... It is up to my parents when they are ready to tell people ... Nor urs ... U haven't changed at all ... U have to make urself look like the better person ... How would u feel if I told everyone of ur family all the crap uve done ... U are so unbelievable ... U make urself loom the the only one hurt in this ... U need to realize just how vengeful and hurtful u really are .... And don't give me excuses about going with advice from others ... U chose the advice u wanted ... So it's u who made all thE wrong decisions ... And that is what showed the type of person u really are ... And that is why I will never be with u again bc I've seen exactly the kind of person u are .... Manipulative ... Vengeful ... Spiteful ... Will hurt others at any cost to prove
What u want even if u are wrong .... So don't ever speak to my family about this ... U have no right"

Any suggestions of a reply? I can't just let that go...is it bad for me to be smiling and getting a chuckle out of this when reading this??

this email basically sums up the last 9 months of her feelings...doesn't take personal responsibility for anything..it's all about what i did

She is totally fogged out. She is identical to 99.9% of waywards. She feels entitled to unconditional love, and her family is in the same mindset.

She has no sense of empathy for others. Is completely self-centered, and strongly enabled by her family.

She has a huge lesson to learn in life, and only that can happen in time.

Absolutely in no way reply to this nonsense. She is completely high on crack at the moment. She is just pizzed because you brought in more spectators to her crackhouse.

I think you should look at Plan B and completely go so dark she will think you are dead.

She is of the type that absolutely sees you as a weak individual. She has no respect for you, and will continue this behavior if you don't man up some.

CUT HER OUT OF YOUR LIFE FOREVER. This and only this gives you a slim chance of her returning. In the meantime, heal yourself. Continue with the gym and get in the best physical shape of your life.

She will be coming on two years soon (if I recall correctly?). It will die soon, so be prepared.

At this moment she is so high and fogged out do not engage. It would be like trying to argue with a drunk in the bar. We all know no one wins.

Yes, Plan B.

However, I might respond in this way as precursor to your Plan B letter:

"I love you, WW. I will continue to do everything in my power to end your affair and save our marriage."

Plan B, ASAP.

I need some 2x4s from you about the response I WANT to send but probably shouldn't:

I'm sorry you feel this way. If you have any suggestions to resolve the issues and finalize the divorce quickly I will try to keep an open mind. Let me be clear once again, I have NO desire to be with someone who is cheating on their husband, lies for months about it and still takes no personal responsibility for it. Like I told your cousin, I am divorcing you because of your adultery. As far as telling my family, you are more than welcome to talk to them, I will even give you their phone numbers if you want. I am trying to be honest and live a life of integrity, that's all. I believe I told your cousin the truth, but he will let me know when I speak to him again. I decided that for myself as long as I'll be able to tell my kids the entirety of my life and not be ashamed then I am living a good life. I can tell them mistakes were made and I have tried my best to learn from them. I am responsible for my actions as you are yours. I guess you have to decide for yourself how you want to navigate this journey we call life, and if you are proud to be an adulteress than that's your call.

Below for your reading pleasure I have copied three different marriage and infidelity experts and their response to this email

Rick Reynolds/Tony Fetchel (both of whom had affairs): It's very normal for a spouse to have reasons and issues to hold over another spouses head. We call that justification of their affair, or rewriting the past to excuse their behavior.

Anne Bercht (husband had affair) : we believe the martial issues need to separated from the infidelity. Your marriage was not perfect, there is not such thing as a perfect marriage. In a marriage we have two imperfect people trying to do life. There will always be failures, hurts, misunderstandings, etc... It is not uncommon for the unfaithful to change the martial history, find fault with their spouse and the marriage to justify the behavior they are or have been involved with.

Dr. Bob Huizenga: 1. O.K. Accept the fact that in your relationships you made mistakes. Yes, you did. Some of them were maybe fairly large. But, who in a relationship of investment doesn't make mistakes; some of them silly, some of them large? Could you have done something differently? Of course! We all could have. Coulda, woulda, shoulda. "Mistakes" in a marriage are often fertile grounds for learning and growing. Did s/he use your mistakes as a springboard for learning and change? And even if you made NO mistakes, how boring and predictable would that be? Yawn..... 2. come to the realization that the decision to enter into an affair is his/her personal decision. A rather poor decision, but his/her decision nonetheless. You see, affairs have nothing to do with love (although you probably believe or s/he says s/he fell out of love with you and loves someone else) but more with three different factors. Affairs may arise out of deep unmet personal needs (such as the affair type, "I Fell out of Love..and just love being in love.") One become attached to another seeking to fill that emptiness or deep chasm. (Little does s/he realize that another person cannot make me "complete" - sorry Tom Cruise.)Someone may choose an affair as a result of a character disorder ("I Don't Want to Say NO'). Or, s/he chooses an affair as an attempt to deal with a dysfunction life-long coping pattern ("I Can't Say No"). Infidelity is a blind attempt to manage one's inner ghosts.

My theory (hatched in over 25 years of clinical practice, research and my conclusions about the nature of humanity) tells me that eventually those who benefit MOST from infidelity are the wounded spouses. Why? They typically become the ones who in their pain, confront themselves, learn, make shifts in their thinking and feelings and redesign themselves in ways that are more harmonious with whom they truly are.The cheating spouse? Well, s/he misguidedly throws him/herself more and more into his/her personal neediness, character disorder or coping pattern dysfunction. His/her emotions, values and behavior goes down the tubes, although s/he at that moment of infidelity and attachment to the other person may deny so. That's why the divorce and unhappiness stats for those who have an affair, divorce and marry another are exceedingly high. No learning, no personal evolution has emerged. At some point s/he may discover that s/he has taken him/her self with him/her... and that is the problem.

ABC,

(((HUGGGSSSSSS))))

Send nothing of the sort. But, you know this. You cannot educate a wayward. You can only show/highlight the consequesnces of their actions. Plan B, my friend. Got the Plan B letter ready?

abc, I've quoted the part where she's going to stop reading:
YOU CANNOT EDUCATE A WAYWARD.

ABC,

You'll spend a more productive evening counting the brush hairs in your broom and alphebatizing your DVDs than in expending any more mental energy in deciding how to respond to a drunk and fogged out WW.

Seriously, go ponder the number of molecules in Leanord Nemoy's butt. It will be a more productive use of your time.

LOL...I know I know...

ABC

Our stitches are very similar. In my late 20's, no kids, M-2, T-11. The best advice I can give, plan B and act as if you are moving on. Look your WW's email to you, she is still emotionally attached to you whether she likes it or not. If she wasn't, she wouldn't care who you were talking to, she wouldn't feel the need to blast you. She is mad. She had an affair, that isn't exactly a bullet you can take back.

I assure you from this day forward no matter how hard she tries she will always know she cheated on her husband and POSOM deep down will know this too. Also their relationship is not all chocolate and roses, it just isn't. If I am ever having a tough time especially if I find out bad news about WW and POSOM, I picture them together 5 years from now being just another lame couple I see. I picture them fat, used up and boring. I picture them always secretly wondering if the other will leave them or if the other will cheat on them. I picture them finally coming down from their emotional high in a state of just blandness. Your WW will keep on repeating the same mistakes over and over while you will grow from this to be a much better man, this I promise. POSOM is a band aid, nothing more, nothing less, pay zero attention to him, I don't care how you slice it he is a POS and anyone that says any different is just flat out dumb. Her family, her brother, they don't know what they are dealing with and they may never truly understand which means squat in the grand scheme of things.

Trust me this a hard pill to swallow. But if she never comes back to you, you will be better off we all will. And even if some day she makes a move to return even after D, there is a mighty good chance you will not want her back. I know that doesn't seem like a possibility now b/c you truly do miss her, but give it time.

Take a hard look at yourself. What do you want in life? What do you expect from a partner? There are women everywhere, you will eventually meet someone else. There are women out there who won't cheat on you, who will honor their vows. We did didn't we? Even as much as I miss my WW, she is not the person I want as a partner right now, even if she were to come crawling back tomorrow, I'd kick her to the curb until she fully understood the depth of what she did. Focus on you and move forward. Picture your next W or your next g/f, what do they look like, what type of relationship do you want to build. How do you see yourself growing from this, where do you see yourself? Picture your life w/o your WW, what does it look like? Think about all the new people you will meet, all the new things you can try and do with your life. Your WW set you free, opened your eyes to really live and appreciate your life and your relationships, set you free to experience life in such a deep and meaningful way that few people will ever reach or get a chance to do. Stay strong.

A great post finah, one of the best I've read on here. Thank you for that. I guess the only thing I have a problem with is "there are women out there who won't cheat on you, who will honor their vows" Yes there are but obviously we both thought our WWs were the same otherwise we wouldn't have married them. There's just no way to know.

ABC it has nothing to do with your analogy.

Based on Dr. Harley's 40 years of experience, SAA, and thousands of radio archives ...

Here are the facts about Waywards, Affairs, and how they work.
1) Most waywards are content and happy in their pre-A marriages. Yes there are issues of needs not being met, but the greatest factor for the affair is the lack of boundaries. Once the boundary is lowered and the opposite sex comes in to fill the EN's you have the beginning of an affair.

2) Once the EN's start filling up in the wayward, they begin with the contrast effect. The Affair partner begins to look great and the spouse begins to look awful ...

a) I haven't been happy for years ... because these new addictive feelings are so great and over power the wayward's previous threshold of happiness. Of course they now see their previous threshold of happiness was much lower because that long term committment cannot and WILL NEVER beable to sustain the level of chemicals in the brain caused by new romantic love.

b) You have sucked for years as a husband and I wanted to leave you for years ... Again the same addictive pattern applies here based on the waywards "Happiness Threshold". The new AP looks 1000x better at the moment than the Spouse, so this is when the next phase happens in the affair. This is when the Approach/Avoidance Conflict begins within the wayward and ULTIMATELY this begins the path of lies and deciet.


Where is your wayward wife at today?

She successfully accomplished 1 & 2 and now is stuck in trying to sustain her HIGH.

Here lies the issue each time you come in contact with her you up her HIGH with POSOM because of the Contrast Effect with all Adultery. Get out of her way and let POSOM be her negative. In the meantime - start looking like the KISA in PLan B. When this affair dies, you have a chance at getting her back, if you haven't already moved on. Those are your choices.

Because she lowered her values, she will seek men at the same value level. Her HIGH will be with men of "No Character, Morals, or Values". Because a man with those three bases will NEVER date your wife. She emotionally cannot get to the upper level until she ups her values. The only way for her to up her values to the next level is to repent and seek forgiveness for her adultery.

She is heading towards using men now to not only fulfill her "HIGH" she needs, but also these men will forever abuse her because they cannot respect her. Her values are now too low.

It is the dumbing down of the affair. All infidels lower their values.

TODAY CONSIDER YOUR WIFE AN ADDICT. How you chose to deal with her is your choice.

We here believe Plan B because that protects you from her addiction.

It is up to you to decide. Please understand her choice of leaving had nothing to do with you or your family. Your Pre-A marriage had a certain happiness threshold, and unfortunately her addiction raised that threshold and she believes your Pre-A marriage can never sustain that level she needs to feed her brain chemicals. At this point you are not the better option for her. Become the person she first started dating. Who was that guy?

Tough~

I understand why you may be apprehensive about that. In my personal stitch. There were small signs. I guess little red flags. Which to me at the time meant absolutely nothing, lol. Knowing what I know now I'll be able to weed out some of those that I may not think are "marriage" type material. But you will never be 100% sure. If I were able to go back and not get married, I am not quite so sure I wouldn't. I mean yes it is painful and still is. But the insight into my own personal life has been immense.

You have to prepare yourself for the notion that nothing last forever. Your next W, your next g/f, yes could cheat on you, could betray you, could be 5 years down the road, could be 30 years. Nobody is perfect, we are all perfectly flawed in a sense. But it isn't who you are, it won't define you. I seriously question how much of a role a BS truly plays, I understand owning your 50%, you need to do in order to grow. But at the same time there are choices in life. There are a million stops that she or any other WS could of made before they decided to go outside of the marriage.

Just like I make a decision to stop at stop signs, I don't want to injure myself or potentially anyone else. It isn't necessarily the ticket I am afraid of, while that is a consequence, causing damage to myself or someone else just isn't a risk I am willing to make.

Now if a person wishes to run a stop sign and ends up killing someone, while that is horrible, it doesn't necessarily mean that the person was bad or meant for it to happen. It just meant they were willing to risk it. Of course there are safe guards in place to prevent us from running stop signs, like tickets and laws, but ultimately it's the person who decides on whether they should stop or not. There is nothing in this world that will ever keep a spouse from betraying another spouse 100% of the time. I and everyone here wish there was, but there isn't sadly.

So as soon as you can let go of the fact that you will never be able to fully control someone and their actions the more control you have in your ability to deal with how you react and hold onto your sense of self.

Think about it. If it were to happen again in your next M. How quick do you think you will respond? How much faster do you think you will be able to deal with the situation and fight it correctly and head on? You will know deep down that you will survive. You know that you have the ability to forgive. You know deep down you can walk away or choose to fight. Your ability to save your M and save yourself will be something you're prepared for and either way life will go on. You can wallow in it, or learn and move forward.

itistoughlove made a great post

abc,

If you must send a response, Surfer's is in line. Trust me (and the others) WW won't read much more than two or three sentences.

If you must add that third sentence, just add "Dang, since your affair is so wonderful, I thought you'd want everyone to hear the great news!"

Did either of you actually file for divorce?

Legal update: I was supposed to be deposing her family members tomorrow. Her attorney filed a motion to quash the subpoenas. My attorney objected saying not enough notice was given. Judge agreed with us however her attorney stated that no one will be showing up tomorrow. So next we will be filing a motion to compel depositions as well as try to recover some money for dissipation.

Waste of money. You're simply digging a hole for someone that you'll never recover your marriage with and with whom you have no kids to fight over custody for.

Not only that, but throwing people on the stand that hate you and will say nothing good about you will accomplish nothing.

But, I'm sure your lawyer will enjoy the new Mercedes you're helping him buy.

I'm telling you this as a man who fought this fight already.

I'm plan D at this time....but do want to depose some people first
And see if I can recoup some money by the dissipation motion

I know I'm throwing money away but just want to try and depose first..then I'm done...

What do you hope to accomplish if there is no custody fight? Smearing the ex will do nothing but create more damage.

Want to maximize your chances at recovery someday? Then DONT make this divorce ugly.

This is the opposite of what I advise when there is a custody situation, but you don't have that.

So what is the end goal? The judge isn't going to give you legal costs unless there is some sort of pattern of fraudulent filings by your STBX.

Not trying to make divorce ugly...just want to have her parents and herself on record for my own purposes...

If she is spending excessive marital assets maybe i can get some of that (dissipation)

I'm not even thinking about recovery anymore...after divorce there's no more thinking of her...move on the better things

I am getting really tired of this process...so depose and out

Instead of buying a BMW for my next car I'll buy another honda civic...

I have racked up significant attorney fees though...10G so far..ouch!

abc,

I know you want to show that you're right here, but your inlaws and STBX flat out don't care and won't be persuaded otherwise.

Unless there's some financial goal here, I'd drop it, be content to never hear from them again and know that you know what NOT to look for in a woman.

Aren't you just ready to be done with this and close this chapter?

I was told recently by someone, "Don't spend dimes to save pennies."

Think about it.

abc,

you already have something no one can take from you and it is priceless: you own the truth.

Eventually, you just have to let them wallow in their own stuff. Their thinking and way of life is generations old and you can't single-handedly change any of them. Your money would be better spent feeding the hungry or taking a vacation to kick start your new life.

I wish you well.