Observation:

When the BS goes into Plan B it is for self-protection and also to preserve any remaining love bank units. Right?

The "tighter" and "darker" the Plan B, the better preservation of the love bank units. Right?

The love you are protecting also causes heartache.

You miss your wayward.
No matter how dumb they have behaved, you miss him/her because the love bank is still active.

Hence, Plan B can feel like self inflicted punishment, at times.

The longer the remaining love lasts, the longer the missing/heartbreak lasts.

Question:

I never did a Plan B.
I need help to figure this out.


I am asking/soliciting experienced Plan B'ers for their advice/wisdom to help out current Plan B'ers.

What do you advise Plan B'ers do with their heartache? What might they do when they are missing their wayward so much it is physically painful?

I don't recall if this has ever been fully discussed.
If it has, please direct me to that discussion.

I am at a loss to help out fellow MB'ers who are in pain because they still love their wayward so very much.

Opinion:

I dislike it when some forum members trash the beloved wayward.
WE in the peanut gallery don't carry the burden of unrequited love for that particular wayward, but the betrayed does.

It is my opinion that the love bank ought to be respected since it is the basis for the Harley methods.

End of post:

Wow, Pep. You sure can stir it up, can't you?

As one who has been in a deep, dark Plan B almost from the time it was suggested to me, I have come to realize that what it represents to me is protection and recovery.

It's often said on these forums that Plan B is for the BS, not to punish the WS. I completely agree with this.

At the beginning, I broke Plan B several times by using the snooping tools I had employed to confirm the A. I came to realize that every time I did so, I "reset the clock" back to D-Day.

This had the effect of DRAINING MY LOVE BANK/

Today, WxW and I have gone down different paths. She no longer exists for me. Oh, the memories still exist, but that's part of the benefit of Plan B: I no longer have to live with the horror and pain that she inflicted on me -- and that's what breaking Plan B does.

Plan B was like going into alcohol withdrawal -- at first it was hard and unpleasant. But as the addiction is broken, the benefits of abstinence can be seen and felt.

And let's be truthful: Dr. Harley does not suggest that combined Plans A & B will recover a marriage alone. They are only the first steps to recovery.

Plan B is my ONGOING RECOVERY from a condition I do not wish to revisit.

Thanks Fred.

How does one (me) comfort/advise a BS who still misses the WS terribly after a year in Plan B?
There are young children involved, so there is never complete Plan B darkness.

The first stage of Plan B is the most painful. You are in your own withdrawal from your beloved.

If you are dark and don't peek, you are in a better place within as Fred said.

Any time you peek, it creates Taker animosity that gets in the way of any potential rebuilding of a marriage in the future.

Betrayed need to know that the grief is real, is human, is not pleasant but a phase you need to go through to find peace. The peace comes faster if you do not try to stay aware of the wayward's activities. You have to let the wayward work through their issues on their own and tend to yours. Nurture your own self. That will help the betrayed get stronger and happier to handle the separation from their beloved spouse. They will get self respect as they go through the process.

Thanks Reading.

What happens to the love units in a dark Plan B?
Do love units leak out slowly in a dark Plan B? Could you feel/sense love units getting smaller?
Do you find that as time goes by, you miss the wayward less and less?
Is the missing the wayward increased or decreased in a DARK Plan B?

Pep, in a very real sense I think it's like dealing with death. There is nothing you can do to make *the person you want* return. You can only put them in a safe place within yourself and try to remember what was best about them.

There's really no working around the pain except to try to keep busy. Little things help. Often there are no big things.

Of course, with Plan B the WS still exists, and there is always that 1% chance that they will Wake Up and return. But the instinct for self-preservation soon overrides any willingness to seek them out. *They* would have to return and *they* would have to make that happen, and if they don't it would only be more of the same torment.

If there are aspects of addiction present, it can help to think of WS as an addict. An addict cares nothing for anybody - not even for themselves. They only care about their drug. This emphasizes that they are NOT the person you remember.

If small children are involved, maybe more than one IM could help. The greater the darkness of Plan B, the more serenity *and control of the situation* the BS/XBS will have.

Oh, and it's okay to still love the WS/XWS. You can give yourself permission to do that. You just have to realize that that person doesn't exist anymore. There is a very small chance that that person will come back, but it is very small indeed.

I sympathize. And I appreciate that you understand how hard recovery from this truly is. Recovery with a repentant FWS is one thing. Recovery from being abandoned and thrown away like last week's garbage by an XWS/Addict is a very different thing and is a whole 'nother ball game.

I think the Love Units weaken. You don't feel like you must have the wayward in your life to be happy. You are like an addict who has been through recovery and the love is there to be recovered/reignited but not ever present in your daily life and mind.

You miss the wayward less and less.

As with any Love Bank account/addiction (just like if a wayward stops contact with a partner in adultery and ever sees them), if the two (BS and WS) are reaquainted in the future....WHOOSH......the account balance can rise back high and quick with deposits of emotional needs met in the love bank.

The only thing that would snuff the love out completely would be a semi dark plan B with peeking at the waywards activities. That would make a betrayed more resentful and less likely to allow for future love bank deposits.

This does help me, this type of thinking. Of course adding OW addiction along with alcohol and suspected drug abuse/addiction makes it a litte harder to focus.


It is hard enough for me as an adult to deal with, trying to perserve my own LB. What about the kids who are abandoned, ignored, not called/text for weeks, no shows for planned event,ect...? I'm talking teens here who are trying to forge their own identities and are thrust into the throws of WSs 'selfish' behavior. What happens to their LBs? WS doesnt seem to care, maybe WS does, but for whatever reasons refuses to acknowledge. That doesn't help the child at all. There are only so many times I can appologize for WS actions to our children before those actions start taking from MY LB!

Mitzie, stop appoligizing for his actions.
Just take responsibility for your own personal parenting activities. Be there for them but don't try to explain Dads lack of being there. Nod in understanding and hug them. (No explaining or making excuses for why Dad is the way he is now).

Totally!
Which is why I am asking for help.
I feel like I don't have the experience to address these issues properly.

Thanks Mulan.

IMHO, Plan B is the ultimate action of the BS Giver using Plan A. It is the ultimate and last action of the "Carrot and Stick of Plan A", all bundled up in one package.

The Carrot part is a statement; "I will keep and protect what Love I have for us". I do believe that the WS is much maligned as the enemy of the marriage. It is not true. The enemy of the marriage is the Affair and Wayward behavior. In being in Plan B you are protecting the WS from further harm to the marriage. If a WS ever becomes FWS how can they not feel enormous pain and suffering for their actions. So by being in Plan B we have removed the knife they have been holding to their marriage and causing further harm.

The Stick part of Plan B involves the deposits and withdrawals from the $LB. We are declaring to WS that we will no longer be making deposits into their $LB and no longer allowing them to make deposits into our $LB.

In conclusion, Plan B allows the BS to GIVE the WS a choice.

Choose! Good or Bad! Right or Wrong! I love you enough to let you choose.

It has been my second hand experience as IM that the longer fades the longer the BS is in Plan B. Dr Harley mentions this effect. The BS withdraws from the WS and starts feeling better in about 3-4 weeks. The feeling gets better and better. So while they might still love the WS, they no longer long for him.

While the love units might be protected, the feeling of love fades and has to be rekindled, so to speak, if reconciliation takes place. It is sort of like an alcoholic who doesn't drink and stays out of bars for 20 years. Those "love units" are still there, but they are in hibernation and can be rekindled with a first drink.

The BS goes into Plan B to protect herself from the extreme emotional trauma of adultery; the purpose is to protect the BS from having a nervous breakdown. The darker the Plan B, the more protected the BS is from the affair, the better the preservation of her mental health.

IMO the best thing a hurting BS can do to help quell the pain is to a.) avoid getting ANY intel about the WS ~ good OR bad and b.) keep very, very busy.

I also worked on myself a lot ~ not only physically but also emotionally ~ I read a lot of books on self-improvement during Plan B also. This helped me to feel stronger and better about myself since the A had wrecked my self-confidence.

And not that recovery with a repentant FWS is any picnic - I'm sure it's not. Recovery after abandonment is just different.

I certainly agree that avoiding any and all info about what the XWS is doing is vitally important. Do not ever let them rub it in your face how "happy" they are now and how they just want you to be "happy", too.

No way, no how. Sickening.

And try to keep people around. The loneliness is perhaps the most difficult aspect to deal with. Even when recovery with a FWS gets tough, at least there's somebody there. Loneliness can be the hardest thing of all. Even a couple of goofy cats is better than no one at all.

Do the "love units" fade away after enough time in Plan B? Maybe for some, they do. But this may not happen and a newly divorced XBS must be ready for this.

Awesome observation on multiple fronts.

1) If a poster happens to bring it up, they are contributing to the Plan B BS focusing on their WS.

2) If the Plan B BS brings it up, and a poster participates, they perpetuate the Plan B BS focusing on their WS.

3) Posters come here hurt, betrayed, and vulnerable - looking for a sympathetic ear and an experienced voice. A poster who develops respect and rapport with a BS, and then proceeds to trash their WS is aiding and abetting the destruction of the marriage; the decision is that of the BS to make about their spouse. Assumptions made through advice or opinions which are contrary to the goals of the BS are destructive, not constructive. Weighing "experience, expertise, or opinion" to sway a BS from their goal is, for lack of any better description, disgusting.

Been really thinking over this today, and have been trying to wrap my head around how to explain the thought of it.

The simplest way, I suppose, is to say that the "7th" Love Buster is Time.

I kind of imagine the LB$ as a large, open water tank. Regular LBs are like removing water from the tank a bucket at a time, and LB$ deposits are like pouring water in. However, at all times the water in the tank is suffering the imperceptible loss of evaporation.

Plan B removes the buckets - but evaporation still occurs. In fact, evaporation occurs in Ms not experiencing infidelity or LB behavior, but are not having enough LB$ deposits made to compensate for evaporation. Thus, even in the absence of infidelity, in the absence of LB behavior, the balance still fades over... Time, the "7th" LB.

To repeat what MelodyLane said, just in my own words...

Plan B for a BS is like withdrawal to an alcoholic. At first, it's tough and the tendency to relapse is great. If relapse occurs, one goes back to ground zero.

As time passes, the withdrawal stage wears off and recovery sets in. In Plan B, the BS focuses on his/her own life condition: health, welfare, employment, church, etc.

The saying I've heard in A.A. is "if you keeping hanging around the barber shop, sooner or later you're going to get your hair cut." To be clear, Plan B is about REMOVAL. The BS removes him/herself from the condition that caused so much pain and anguish.

Plan B, like A.A. is all about "one day at a time." Anything else is simply trying to tell God how to run things.

This is an excellent explanation for a BS and it comports completely with own past experiences in withdrawing from a legally/emotionally abusive & obsessively-fogged-out, unrepentant WW/xWW via Plan B (err�it eventually became more like �Plan-stay-the-heck-away-cuz-friends/family/me-will-have-nothing-more-to-do-with-your-psycho-a$$�).

The 2nd to last line of Dr. Harley�s quote really caught my eye. I don�t think I�ve ever read anything quite like that here on MB�.at least not put that bluntly and succinctly. Plan A is certainly worth doing for a reasonable amount of time (�reasonable� depending on the BS�s emotional tolerance and the WS�s level of stubbornness/emotional-addiction to the affair). I would advise many BSs to consider Plan B (much) sooner rather than later if the following revision to Dr. Harley�s statement applies to their situation:


� Quite frankly, when someone is way deep in the fog, plan A really doesn't help much at all. �

Thank you everyone.
This has been very helpful.
Keep it coming.

Well, Pep, you did it again. I finished making dinner(bagels with bacon and cheese, DS10 picked it), I log on to MB for the first time today and I see THIS thread and I start to cry as I read the posts. I KNOW PEP. I KNOW.

I believe, and I am certain that Pep will correct me if I am wrong, that this thread was started to help Pep help ME. I appreciate the help. I appreciate the responses and I know they will help others as well as myself.

I will explain a little bit about what I am thinking, how I am feeling and what is going on in Scotty-ville.

I loved my WH with ALL of my heart. I still love him, A LOT. I sometimes believe that I entered Plan B too early. My LB$ for my WH was still way too high. I don't regret entering Plan B when I did, and I would not fault anyone who led me to that decision at that time. At the time, it was the right thing for me. It is still the right thing for me.

Let's look at this through the MB glasses shall we? My WH had a huge balance in my LB even after having an affair. Before DDay1, Nov9/07 I had been in a state of withdrawal in my M. I had given over to the fact that this was marriage, we were raising our children, living day to day, and maybe when the kids were old enough, we would be able to rekindle something again. If not, that was fine. Life wasn't great, but I figured that it could be a lot worse. On DDay1, I realized that I loved my WH. I didn't want to lose him and I would do anything to repair our marriage. He was all I wanted FOREVER. So when he was gaslighting me, I believed him.

I remember the summer of 2008, I was watching Oprah, and she had Will Smith and Jayda Pinkett Smith on. They said that they worked on their marriage because Divorce wasn;t in their vocabulary. I was trying to save my marriage, I was looking for ways to fix it. My WH agreed that Divorce wasn't in his vocabulary either. He made some efforts. We seemed to be getting closer but there was this "friendship" with OW that was getting between us. It was the cause of almost ALL of our arguments.

I was gaslighted with the, "You are insecure and jealous and THAT is what we are arguing about. It's not about her(I KNOW I KNOW, remember this was Pre-MB)." You know what? I believed him because I felt insecure and I WAS jealous. So I started to work on me. When I go back and read the journal entries from that time, I see my words and I cry. I said things like, "I need to trust him more. I can't always believe the worst of him." I can't believe that I was falling for it. I know better now.

I have always believed that my WH would have an affair. I just "knew." After we had children, I actually made the decision that I could forgive one affair, but only one. Then I changed that to, "I CAN forgive one affair, I don't know if I could forgive more than one." I still don't know. I may never need to worry about that either.

Now, for those of you who have made it this far and still have time to read, here are some things about my current sitch.

I have been in Plan B for 13+months(hey at least I don't know the exact amount of time). The end of my Plan B has been set by me. It is longer than the end date DrH has stated, not because I don't agree with him. It is simply because I don't see me being ready in less than 11 months to go to Plan D.

I started Plan B with a GIANT balance for WH in my LB. DDay2 managed to withdraw a big chunk. I feel much better about being in Plan B. I never could sleep without WH, now I sleep like a baby and actually prefer to sleep alone. I have managed to fix some things and take care of my family without my WH. I have been making self improvements. I have been focusing on finding new hobbies, taking up old ones, and figuring out what I want to be when I grow up(I really want a career and have for a while).

I was my own email IM for a while, which was WRONG WRONG WRONG. Being in Plan B, I thought I could handle it. There wasn't anything too hurtful, but it did keep me thinking about WH a lot. That has been corrected and will not occur again. My current IM has had nothing to do for almost 2 months. And I am POSITIVE that she will do an AWESOME job.

Currently, my WH transfers over the money that I asked for in my addendum to Plan B. When he was also asked to pay for half of DS10's boxing training, he agreed. He then said he would only do it for 3 more months, but he continued it this month again. He paid for the back to school items that I asked for, through IM, and even purchased more. Even other expenses, such as dentist bills, that come up, I ask for half and he pays the whole amount. So, financially, he has been continuing to meet my EN, which, like it or not, deposits LB$. I know he SHOULD support his children, but I also know that he could choose not to. If he ever chose not to, it would drain a HUGE amount of LB$ real quick.

Now, to bring up DSx2. When he calls them, it meets an EN for FC. When he doesn't call or email them, it drains my LB$.

Even the fact that he got DS8 a birthday cake, a blue Lego block, met an EN for me. My WH doesn't think that birthdays are a big deal. He has always said that his Bday is, "just another day." He KNOWS that I hold birthdays to a high standard. So, getting DS8 a birthday cake, in his favourite colour, in the shape of his favourite toy was very thoughtful. Sending home 3 pieces of cake was actually something that drained a bit of LB$. Funny how LB$ works, eh.

I believe that the EN meeting may be going both ways. The LB$ withdrawals are also going both ways. And this leaves me where I am. LB$ balance going up and down even though I am in Plan B. Mostly because of and through our children. I don't know what the outcome of my story will be, but I do know that MB has helped me, either way. I do not regret having taken these steps and having followed these plans.

I hope now everyone can understand why I didn't feel like I was as good of a Plan Ber as you all thought. I am in a pretty cr@ppy Plan B. I don't see a way to fill in these holes. It's pathetic sometimes. I will see a piece of mail with my WH's name on it and it makes me think of him. I can't make him change his address and the fact that he hasn't even adds LB in a warped way.

I can't explain it any better than that. I may have been able to use less words, but I doubt it.

Again, thank you all. I hope this helps.

Cliff notes:

Scotty holds a lot of love, still.
After more than a year.
Sometimes, it hurts her a LOT.
A lot, a lot.
More than she lets on.

The rest of the story:

I feel useless. Me, I do.
I can't figure out how to best help her.
I guess, just being there (in a virtual way) is a help.
But, I wondered if I was missing something that another MBer more experienced with first hand Plan B might be able to provide.

The "50 heads are better than one" theory.
Me ~~>

And, you "outed" yourself, my dear.
I'm pretty sure you were anonymous until you posted.

Scotland, the EN of DS is not enough to fill or empty a lovebank. People don't fall in love over DS, because it is not an intimate emotional need. Neither is financial support. People don't fall in love over that because none of that occurs until a person is married. They fall in love when the top 4 intimate emotional needs are met, ie: conversation, sexual fulfillment, affection and recreational companionship. None of which are being met in your case. I don't agree that his not calling your kids can "empty your lovebank" because that is not lovebuster.

I don't agree that you went into Plan B too soon. I don't think you went into it soon enough. You did Plan A for an appropriate amount of time and if he doesn't get the point that you would be WILLING to meet his needs in the future if he ends his affair, then he will never get it. There is no other point to staying in Plan A. The reason that women need to enter Plan B sooner rather than later, is because of the psychological and physical trauma of adultery. Many women have nervous breakdowns and/or suffer years of post traumatic stress disorder from it.

As far as waiting longer than 2 years to get a divorce, I will just tell you what Dr Harley says, "But I don't encourage a spouse to wait more than 2 years in Plan B. After that amount of time, reconciliation is very rare."

That's okay, I don't mind.

Some people may have been unwilling to help had they known it was me, and others may have been more inclined. I thought that if other Plan Bers, who remain lurkers, may benefit in knowing tht they are not alone.

And it really cheeses me that you can say some much with so few words. When I grow up, I wanna be a lot like YOU Pep. You have been planted firmly in my mentor role, whether you like it or not. :P

Mel, I get that I won't fall in love with my WH because of FS and FC. I am already in love with him. I love him A LOT. I was talking about the balance and how it seems to continue to go up and down for me. Even the fact that we have spent 0 minutes together in 13+ months and I still love him boggles my mind. Some people just chalk it up to, "You will ALWAYS have some love for your WH, he IS the father of your children."

I also agree that after 2 years in plan B, it might be darn near impossible to recover my marriage, but since I am in no hurry to enter a new relationship, I don't believe extending the time limit of my Plan B past the two years to be of any hindrance to me.

I have been making progress. I believe that I have been moving in the right direction. I will continue on my path to personal recovery. Lemme know when I am veering off my path and any course corrections you can help me with.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Scotland}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}] you are awesome!

Thanx. I don't feel very awesome at times, but seeing people whom I have grown to respect tell me I am keeps me up. I can be quite hard on myself. I don't know if I will ever be able to change that fact about my personality.

Another thing that doesn't get touched on is that there seems to be a filtering mechanism involved in wither something is a deposit or wither it is a withdrawal.

Example
pre-affair: Nice romantic dinner at restaurant. Deposit.
affair: Nice romantic dinner at same restaurant WS with OP. Withdrawal.
post-affair: Nice romantic dinner at same restaurant FWS with FBS. Withdrawal.

So it isn't just the action causing the deposit/withdrawal, but possibly the perceived intention of the action. IOW, a processing of the input of the action. There also seems to be just the active thinking of WS in A by BS making withdrawals. So not only do BS in Plan B Have to Darken the external inputs of WS, but also have to Darken the memories and thoughts of WS.

I don't subscribe to the process of a Love Bank being evaporated even in a Dark Plan B. If evaporation was occurring with previous lovers then they would not be such a danger to a marriage.

Again, the addiction/AA reference works well. There is a simple saying; "Wet places, wet faces."

What it refers to, and what the alcoholic has to recognize, is that people and places associated with the behavior - drinking - need to be avoided to make recovery successful.

This is the same for a WS, and it is the same for a BS.

People and places that are somehow related to memories of the A (or in Plan B, memories or thoughts of the WS) should be avoided to minimize triggers.

NC is not the only reason for relocating being a great facilitation to recovery.

I agree that the perception of the action can also make an action become a deposit or a withdrawal.

And when you are dealing with a wayward, it is hard to understand their actions. Even the attempt is crazy-making.

That is true and sometimes I think that me living here is also a trigger. Looking at my DS8, whom resembles my WH so closely he was nicknamed "mini-Me" is hard to avoid though. I removed all pictures of my WH from my living spaces. I have some new furnishings, and am making changes to paint, etc. It's more difficult to tear the WS completely from your life when you have small children together.

(((Scotty))) I never did Plan B because I didn't know about MB at the time. I guess you could say I attempted something similar by beginning to not take his calls, see him, etc. but nothing like you guys do here on MB. With that said, I personally think how each person handles the effects of Plan B (no contact, unavoidable contact, etc.) depends on the strength of the individual person.

Now I'm not saying Plan B should be altered in any way, not at all, so please don't get that from what I'm saying. What I'm saying I guess is that because your love was/is so strong for WH, you may be able to sustain it longer while in Plan B than another person whose love wasn't/isn't as strong as yours pre-A.

To use a pretty weak analogy: not every pregnant woman will give birth on the 266th day. Some may give birth earlier and some later. Whatever the length of time, it doesn't take away from the fact of how it works or that it does work. (See I told you it was weak!)

It would be nice if WH had no way to make any deposits or withdrawals from your LB but that's not real life. The danger for anyone in Plan B is false hope or holding out for WH and getting stuck forever. There will come a time when you, and only you, will decide that enough is enough and you'll be done. In the meantime, protect your heart as much as you can.

Oh, and if it ever bothers you when others (me/myself/I) chime in on your rant about WH, please speak up and tell said person (me/myself/I) to shut up.

That was totally Pep's thing I think. I don't believe that I have ever expressed anything of the sort. There have been times when some people have said some things that have irked me, but I address it at the time.

I know the MB material. I know I don't want to get stuck and I figure that as long as I am moving in the right direction, then I will get to my destination. Some of us get there on a jet, and some of us have to take small steps. Others of us will take some of both.

I recognize the strides I have made and I know where I am headed. I am gonna keep on walking.

So far we have Plan B $LB withdrawals:

1. Continuation of Affair.
2. Memories.
3. Physical Triggers.
4. Wayward Behavior.

Length of Plan B Sustainability
1. $LB Balance.
2. Reduced Contact with WS.
3. ????

One last comment from me on this topic, and once again it involves a cross-reference to A.A:

It's said that A.A. is for people who WANT it, not for people who NEED it.

Speaking only for myself, this is the attitude I have adopted with MB as well. I WANT recovery from the torpedoing of our marriage my WxW did. When it became apparent to me that we weren't going to recover the marriage together, I became set on recovering myself alone.

Plan B is the single most important element that has helped in this regard.

Because I WANT recovery.

I gotcha Fred.

I even worry sometimes that if I let go of the idea of recovering my M that will mean that I will NEVER recover my M. Since it is still a possibility, albeit remote, I don't want to lock that door to tightly.

I KNOW that I will be okay if my marriage doesn't recovery. I will manage a life better than the one I would have had with the marriage I had before. It's just that I don't want to cut off all avenues that are available to me until the road is no longer there. Right now, I am on the path for personal recovery, which I honestly believe that I would need even in the event of marital recovery. Who knows where my story will end? I am not the author, merely a character and I have my part to play. I am doing my best and learning as I go. I WILL become a better person than before. I already am.

Let me point out that many of us love our WS a lot (underline and capitilize the a and the lot). I feel compelled to say this since we each felt our marriage was magic and invincible until we realized, uh oh.....what the? Huh? Oops!

The beauty of Plan B is that you can live your life without shooting yourself in the foot and making an irrevocable statement about the future. It allows for the door to actually be kept open. It is shut to pain but open to the possibility of a knock on it indicating a spouse who ended their affair and wants to rebuild.

I love that there is no drama of making a statement that is set in stone for the relationship's status for all time. I think that is keen.

Beautifully stated.

Scotland, one more thing. As a person who has LOTS of regrets about her past, please don't allow second guessing about your Plan B timing suck the joy out of your life. You cannot change the past, but you can change the present. I have had to train my own mind to STOP it when I start second guessing myself. It is a completely fruitless endeavor that only sucks the joy out of the present.

You made ME cry!

Yup. Change the name, change the length of time, and I'm sure you could describe many here in Plan B/D.

Common Wisdom dictates that you immediately fall out of love with someone who has treated you so badly.

The truth is, that doesn't always happen.

The average person - one who has not had to deal with infidelity - does not understand this.

I am sure that even those who have recovered their marriages have been called "crazy" or "stupid" or "doormats" and other things because they stayed with a spouse who betrayed them.

Well, they stayed because they still loved their spouse even in spite of the infidelity.

And most here who are in Plan B did hope that they could recover their marriages in just the same way. But it didn't happen.

Those who did recover could give that love to their FWS, and people seem to understand that. That love didn't go away.

Those who did not recover - well, what do they do with the love they still have?

It didn't go away, either. It's just sitting unclaimed and unused. And you can't just turn around and give it to somebody else. It belonged to the WS and it has their name on it.

I guess it would help the BS/XBS most just to have people acknowledge this fact, and not be told to "move on" or "get over it already" or "geez, you're crazy and you need help" or even "Let me congratulate you on being rid of WS/XWS."

The problem is, I don't know what to do with love that sits unclaimed and unwanted. You can't just throw it away like trash - the WS already did that.

I think that's a problem every BS/XBS has. If I figure it out, I'll let you know. And if any of YOU figure it out, please let me know!

Mulan nailed it.

Mulan,

You hit that on the head better than I have ever heard or read it before. You explained it so well. Thank you.

You are so right in that those who haven�t been a BS/xBS before have a difficult time understanding how & why someone can still love a WS/xWS, even after a substantial amount of time has passed and even when their wayward displays no outward remorse or repentance. The BS/xBS frequently hears (often from otherwise well-intentioned but misguided friends & family) that he/she �really needs to move on�, �is better off anyway without (the WS)�, and �why would you ever want a cheater back again? you'll never be able to trust or respect him/her...�

While there is often a fair amount of truth in these pronouncements, it can require a great deal of time for the BS to arrive at that point and he/she needs to get there on their own and in their own time. Some do it fairly quickly, some do it TOO quickly, and some do it very gradually. Unless it really has gone far beyond excessive (and professional help may be needed in extreme cases), it�s really hurtful and counter-productive to try to push somebody along in the name of �friendly advice�. Many BSs loved and were devoted to their WSs completely. Many did not see the affair coming at all and never would have believed it possible. These guys/gals are literally shell-shocked, confused & hurt beyond description, and are going to need a lot of time, patience, and support in Plan B to fall-out-of-love and not miss their marriage anymore.

I don�t think that Scotland�s �I still want recovery-and still love my WH-even after a year+-in Plan B� situation is in any way unusual, abnormal, or concerning. Heck, I KNOW it isn�t. It took me 18-24 months post-D (about 2.5 to 3 years post-original separation) to truly break 100% free. I don�t regret the duration one bit�it probably kept me from doing something really, really stupid like rebounding/re-marrying too quickly and/or not truly learning how to be a better spouse and how to recognize a better spouse. It�s also nothing to be ashamed or embarrassed of either. Scotty, it just means you loved more and deeper and loyally�and those are NOBLE QUALITIES that will serve you well in the future no matter what happens with your WH.

I don�t have a magic pill answer to the �problem� you posed at the end of your post, Mulan. It was strange the way it worked for me. After a gradual initial personal Plan B partial-recovery, I had another massive, delayed, all-revealing D-day of sorts via a 3rd party over a year post-D. This sent me into another tailspin and seemed to wipe out all the emotional and personal progress I had made up until that point. I went back to the counselor I had seen earlier (in fact, he was the same MC that WW & I had seen when she was still actively lying/concealing the affair). He was VERY helpful. In my messed up condition I didn�t believe him initially, but I clearly remember him telling me this:

� You finally have what you needed�the full truth. Pain is NOT your enemy here. You will grieve again and you are going to have a rough 3-6 months ahead. But, when you come out the other end�and you will�you will be new and free. �

He was proven absolutely correct.

GREAT discussion. This is where I am, and you're right, I too do not know what to do with the love I have for my stbx. It hurts that I still have it, and it hurts to try to rid myself of it.

The only thing I could come up with is to just accept that I do still love him, and not beat myself up for it, which I have in the past.

I can continue to love him by taking care of myself, our children, the pets, and the house. (I'll be moving out, he'll be moving in).

In time, without his presence in my life, I may start filling someone else's needs, and the shift from loving my stbx will take place to a new partner.

But for now, I can't even think about being with another man. Everytime I even entertain the idea, I see my husband. Right now, he's the one I love. I will continue to do so, until I no longer do.

Great post Mulan.

I hate that others have to go through this, but it sure does help knowing I'm not alone in this.

I really appreciated hearing your timeline, on when you broke free.



I would love to have the FULL TRUTH about my marriage, to make that break. In my case, I will probably never know. I can't help but to think that it wasn't just me and my issues that caused our marriage to fail. I still have a gut feeling that there's been someone, or just the thought of another woman, always in the back of my husband's head, making recovery impossible. But at this point, I will probably never know for sure.

But my previous post still stands on how I will cope and handle things for now. One of the things that I have prayed for the most was for God to reveal the "truth" to me. Some things have been revealed to me about my character, not at all good, and some about his character, which is some good, and some not so good. But nothing like finding out there was indeed another person pulling us apart. In my case, there may have been some greener pastures fantazing going on. I just don't know.

She sure did and now I'M crying too.

((((Scotland))))

One day you're going to be appreciated for loving so deeply and compassionately. Your kids already do.

I just cleaned out some drawers in my nightstand. I came across a card my son gave me when he was much younger, but could write well. He's 22 yrs old now. It said "he loved me so much because I never left him". I will cherish that forever. I have an awesome relationship with my kids. We've grown closer since my husband left.

Just let the tears flow Scotty. You'll feel better again soon. Hugs.

.


Great post Fred, and shall I add its not about loss its about abundance that we start to desire those changes.

Amen!

But...But...But...

Awesome post Fred. Just yesterday when I once again decided to look at something that would remind me of my stbx, I told myself to stop. I want to heal.

Xactly Mulan, I guess it helps if our love is redirected and redefined, like say, towards our children, but the love we have for the wayward/X is a different kind of love, and the rejection of that what we give from the deepest part of ourselves as we bare our souls and put our whole life in thier hands, well, where do we put that?

We realize it is not gone, it is put on hold, and just a valuable as it allways was, and allways will be. That to me has been the best part of the healing process. I have not really lost anything because I loved, and I have gained more because of it.

Like the poster above mentioned, "Pain is not your enemy"

What a great way to look at it C.P.

Thank you for that.

Just my .02 on this interesting topic...and I realize you are asking this for a very specific reason.

My situation different in that my wife went into a Plan B when I had to place her into a nursing home after the fire here. She felt betrayed by me and disgusted, and then I felt forced into a Plan B because I felt rejected by her. That lasted for four+ months back in late 2009 and early 2010 as I had originally posted. I felt more rejected when I learned from her counselor that she had a brief affair with a resident at that nursing home.

I believe the bottom line is that 1) it is not only a matter of preseving the Love Bank, but a matter of preserving the marriage, and 2) the longer the history - of a good marriage - the greater the heartache.

In our situation it was simply damned hard. No contact between us for nearly four months. I felt conflicted that if I contacted her I would be rejected vs. if I contacted her I would somehow be intruding on her life that she did not want me to be a part of at that time.

There was the hope on my part that she would 'come to her senses' - i.e., simply that we would be able to communicate and resolve, but you cannot do this when emotions are still running high. I just sensed that for both me and her that any premature contact would hasten resolution or make up.

Yeah heartache. I do not believe for a minute that a love bank between a husband and a wife can totally cash out, unless there is abuse or some other serious offense. So, even tho it can diminish, the heartache and the pining will always be there to some degree - to the same extent that you can expect some below zero degree days in Chicago in January!

Tom

Again...very interesting topic and question, but also again I believe that the degree of heartache is totally dependent on the lenght and quality of the marriage. Yes, children are a factor, but the main factor is the H and the W.

As far as the heartache, each person has to assess how much they can tolerate, and how important their marriage is.

And, added, it is not only affairs that rip marriages apart, it can be long-term illness, financial distress, etc. Obviously, affairs are the most vile and destructive. In out case, we have survived my alcoholism, her mental illness, and just other day we celebrated our 42nd wedding anniversary. Our wedding day was so long ago that it almost predates the first Super Bowl!

Take care,

Tom

Tom, not to get off this very important topic here, but...since you brought up the SB.....

STEELERS GONNA KICK YOUR PACKERS BUTTS RIGHT BACK TO CHEESEHEAD LAND!! GO BLACK & GOLD.....GOIN' FOR 7...YEAH, BABY!

Thanks again Mulan, for stating the issue so clearly and concisely.
Now I feel relieved that I was not able to think of a solution.
It's definitely above my pay grade.
Definitely goes into the "God Box".

Scotty, reading your thoughts on this, I must ask...do you think you could be "in love" with the fantasy of who you thought your WH to be? (Mel, don't beat me up for using psychobabble! This is a real issue for many of us!).

So you say you are still in love with your H even though you have spent no time with him in the past 13 months which is leading me to believe that you are actually "in love" with who you THOUGHT he was when you were still living together.

We ALL do this, I did this too. Noodle, an old poster from here was able to clearly describe this and nail me on it. There was no good reason I should have had "in love" feelings for my H when I was in Plan B ~ the year leading up to my Plan B had been TORTUROUS ~ the mental cruelty and emotional abuse was hideous. The lies and manipulation were insane.

Yet during Plan B I thought I was still "in love" with him and Noodle pointed out that it was impossible ~ that really, I was in love with who I "thought" he was prior to the A. I had built him up in my own mind to be someone he really wasn't. I needed to be honest with myself and see him for who he clearly WAS ~ not see him for who I wanted him to be.

This made sense to me and when I began seeing the truth in this and accepting him for who he WAS (not who I WANTED him to be), the "in love" feelings began to disappear. That was actually a good thing for me because when we got into recovery I had a clearer understanding of what to expect and what needed to change. He was no longer the perfectly loyal, faithful H who put his wife and family first ~ he was a flawed man who was married to a very flawed woman.

I hope this isn't too jumbled ~ I'm sorry if it's not making any sense to you. I can't seem to get my thoughts straight today.

Makes sense to me, MF.

Glad it makes sense to someone!

bump

MF, it does make sense to me. This thread has really made me think about the whole sitch.

Throughout this year, I have come to realize that my WH has had weak boundaries around women from the start of our relationship. There may have been other affairs. He may have even been the OM in someone's marriage while we were still dating. I don't actually know for sure and I may never know.

When I was exposing, I heard things like, "I can't believe it. He loves you and those boys so much." Even his sister, whom is in a 5 year A right now, said, "But my brother wouldn't do that. He was so against my A that he stopped talking to me(he has since re-connected with her)." These comments solidified for me the fact that this wasn't something that anyone else believed my WH could do either. But that is pretty typical for most waywards.

I think that after reading what was written on this thread(Thank you everyone and especially Pep), that I can focus on what I need to do and not worry about the love that is left for my WH. It is not abnormal to still feel love for my WH. I was getting focused on how to get rid of the love I have left, now I realize that it will most likely remain so I need to work around it, KWIM?

I am still a work in progress and I thank you all for giving me this nudge. I will be able to focus more on what I need to do than worry about something that I can't really change anyways(my love for WH). Geez I think I have heard that somewhere before.

I don't think you need to "worry" about the love you still feel for your WH...I think that it will take care of itself as time goes on.

Remember to focus on the "fantasy" of your WH that you had/have...much of your feelings are based on a fantasy and if you do not allow yourself to focus on those fantasies these feelings will eventually fade.

(((Scotty))) I am sorry you are hurting so badly.

I don't really feel like I am hurting much. I actually feel better than I did last year. That lapse in Plan B, where I read OW's FB page, sent me for a real tailspin. I have been recovering from that and it has turned my thoughts to the A once again. I know that it was something that I won't repeat, besides, I promised.

I feel like I have thread jacked too much here. Maybe I should continue these discussions on my own thread. Thanx again everyone.

This discussion has helped me a lot.
Thanks everyone.

{{{{{Scottie}}}}}},

I have some comments to make, but I'm having a hard time putting the thoughts down coherently....

I hate when that happens!!!

I did want to say Scottie and any other Plan B'er that the pain you are feeling for loving your WH while in Plan B is not a sign of failure. It's a sign of your human decency and your good nature. It's so easy for others not having to walk your journey to question your feelings or actions, however they are not the ones making the journey.

You are special my friend.....very



Not

ps...I'll try and get those thoughts in order. Sorry I couldn't help at the moment, but wanted to let you know you are in my thoughts and prayers.....

This thread helped me immensely as well. TO be continued on my thread.

Yer welcome - I think it's above the pay grade of most of us.

This has been a good thread yes, Thanks everyone.

Pg 176-177 in HNHN....

"No matter how well Elaine meets Alex's needs, he will remain in love with Harriet for some time to come. Alex and Elaine can rebuild their marriage by beginning to meet each other's five basic needs. The can reignite the flames of their own love, but all their efforts may not completely extinguish the flame of love ignited by Alex's affair with Harriet. It may burn low, but it might never go out completely. Just as an alcoholic remains addicted to alcohol the rest of his life and never dares to touch another drink, Alex will remain vulnerable to Harriet for life and should not see her again.

When I tell a wife that her straying husband will always be vuneralbe to his lover, the typical reaction is often one of dispair.

"Then why should I stay with him at all?" is the common response.

"Because you love him and you want to survive this ugly mess," I answer. "I don't like telling you this any more than you like hearing it, but I've seen it too many times. You must accept the fact that your husband will be vulnerable to the other woman. But that doesn't mean you can't build a stronger love between the two of you."

You might wonder why I choose this passage since we are talking about the the love a BS has for the WS, however, I think that this passage describes the Love Bank workings better than almost anything Dr. H has ever written.

When a BS goes into Plan B, part of that reasoning is to protect the love they have for the WS. In that protection, by taking themselves out of the drama of the WS's affair, there isn't a whole lot of withdraws happening. It leaves the LB account the WS has opened at a standstill. If a BS is still in love with the WS, it will be hard for them to fall out of love if the withdraws have stopped. It is easy for most people to think that the fact the WS abandoned the BS and kept on with the affair, that that action alone would help close the account, but we've seen that isn't always the case many times on these boards. For the sake of the BS, I wish it were the case.

So now that we've established that the account isn't closed and quite possible may never truly close, we are left with how to help Plan Ber's when the account is still quite full.

From what I know of these boards, and I've been here for quite some time now, I think that as a whole we do well, especially for the new Plan Ber's. Making new routine's, trying out new adventures, focusing on themselves and if need the kids, are all wonderful and necessary steps for a BS to take.

However, sometimes the BS is in Plan B for a long time, and the next step maybe coming upon them.

I think listening to them vent is a very necessary thing, especially for us here, after all, usually IRL, friends and family have grown a bit weary of it all.

I also think though, its sometimes necessary to gently guide a Plan B'er into the next step. Some important questions can be and should be asked....

"Why do you still want you marriage to work at this point?"
"Why do you love your WS?"
"What is holding you back from taking the next step?"

They are not fun questions to ask and sometimes, the BS may get mad at them, however, in order to help ensure that the BS is not stuck were they are at, it sometimes is necessary. Doing this with compassion and love will go a long way.

This is all just my own thoughts on this and I think Pep asked a great and valid question to a sometimes hairy situation....

Not

ps...I knew this thread was prompted by Scottie's sitch. But it is quite evident on how well she is loved and admired when a friend reaches out on the "how" to help her....

Asking questions ( Socratic method ) is in my opinion, THE most effective tool we have here on MB forums.

I use it to sort out the folks I won't do well with.
I can't help everyone.
I don't like everyone.
I need to determine when there is a non-starter .... for me, not for others.




I might phrase these differently, and that is the beauty of MB forums. Different posting styles is a GREAT asset to this forum !



I have fun asking these sorts of questions.
I learn the most about MBers from the way they respond to such questions.
The MOST telling is when the questions are completely ignored!
>shrugs<

The second most telling is when an important question is asked that should require deep thought, and the response is as deep as a dry spit on a hot road.





I was feeling impotent.
But, I forgot to ask God for help.
Oppsie

Dr. Harley and Joyce had an interesting discussion about this thread on the Feb 1 radio show. They had received an email asking for Dr. Harley's opinion on the effect of Plan B on the BS spouse's lovebank.

AM

and ????? ..... please continue .....

The show can be replayed for free here: click here


LATER: An issue on the MarriageBuilders.com infidelity forum asks about what happens to the betrayed spouse�s love toward the wayward spouse during plan B. Maria writes that she has been in plan B for several years, and still feels love for her husband even though her husband�s affair continues.

Thanks for adding the link. I would have muddled it.

AM

Me too.
Thanks.

Whats a link?

J/K

Just listened to the show.
It is the 3rd and last segment.



Letter written by "Maria". Thank YOU Maria, whoever you are.

Points made about this topic in general and not specific to Maria:

It is not unusual for a BS in Plan B to have caring/loving feelings for the WS while not having any contact with them.

The purpose of Plan B is to preserve the LOVE for the WS and also to protect the BS's mental and physical health which can be severely compromised by Plan A (if it goes on too long).

95% of affairs end a "natural death".

Even plan B for 6 years there is still caring/love for the WS.
Plan A for 6 years, the BS would absolutely HATE the WS. Or be driven crazy. Or become ill/sick.

While Plan B preserves the love BS has for the WS, Plan B does NOT help the WS fall back in love with the BS. That is not the purpose, nor is it an unintended consequence.

TAKE HOME MESSAGE FROM MY PERSPECTIVE:

There is a downside to Plan B.
The BS is still in love with their wayward.

Unrequited love.

Turns out, Mulan was right.

Good to hear DrH's take on the Love Bank in Plan B for a BS.

BTW, I already KNEW that Mulan was right. I could "feel" it. It was like an AH-HA moment when she said that she still feels love for her WH. Knowing that someone, whom I respect so well, and who, in my VHO, has done a GREAT job at personal recovery, also holds a love for her WH, made me feel "normal" and on track.

Not, I guess you found your "voice" afterall.

It sounded like Maria had another question today, or else I caught a rebroadcast, or am confused about what I was listening to. It was another Plan B question.

Maria, glad to know you're reading. We'd love to have you log in and join the discussion.

That's it, exactly.

Unrequited love leaves you feeling stoopit (because what good does it do?), and starving (because you are starved of ENs), and with an overwhelming sense of rejection (because the best you had meant absolutely nothing).

But it's still there, and it's a part of you, and you don't want to lose anything more. You've already lost enough. And it's nothing to be ashamed of. At least you know you have a heart. WS/XWS have - what?

This is why it can take a BS/XBS a long, long time to "move on". Please be patient with us. We be tryin'.

Well, thanks - that's awfully nice of you to say. Though of course, even a stopped clock is right twice a day!

How do you tell the time on the moon?

LOL! This sounds like a question one of my kids would have asked when they were younger!

Good times!

My HUMBLE apology to any Plan B'er who has been on the receiving end of my ignorant impatience.

Your tender hearts deserve our (my) respect.

Just to opine in on my Plan B experience. To me the love I feel for my POSWH has two points.

1) My WH is deployed, the affair happened during deployment, and he is still seeing POSOW daily. I have no chance of any recovery because of the situation. My WH has not experienced his life without me and our four kids in the States yet. His deployment has caused an out of sight/out of mind mentality. He used his deployment to abandon me and the kids because he has no sense of reality at the moment. There are 25 soldiers that have created this small little family. Once they return and every goes back to their normal life; I pray my husband will feel the devastation he caused. His dung fog is deep while still deployed.

2) I have four small kids with this man, so my love for WH is not really for him, but the sake of my family. I am willing to fall back in love with WH romatically even though he has done the most deplorable things possible, because the greatest gift I could give my children is their family. I am believe in my vows still, and I believe forgiving my WH will allow my children the best possible future to thrive.

I have done everything to kill the affair that can be done. I filed adultery charges, told all his unit buddies (CONUS/OCONUS), emailed all our friends, told my POSMIL/SIL (who love POSOW and her POSMom ... ). Today I am still holding out hope that when they return from their fantasy deployment there may be a chance my WH sees the light of day, or she dumps him, or he finally finds GOD.


Before WH deployed we just welcomed our fourth baby, and we actually had an okay marriage. Give me one married couple that have a great marriage while they are raising small babies? I know I met many of his EN's and I know when I accomplish his most important EN (physical appearance) he will feel something. I just pray. If not then I will look pretty darn sexy for a MB husband !!!

I just pray everyday when he returns and is away from MIL/SIL (possibly POSOW) he will wake up out of his dung fog and come back to us. I am filing for divorce based on adultery to drag out the divorce, depose POSOW, and hopefully within a couple years my family can be whole.

I have my EP's ready, and my love is there and waiting.

At this moment it is in the hands of GOD. Like many of you I have my timeline when I will officially give up.

Let me know if you see problems with my Plan B. I am hoping I am following the plan well, and my marriage can still be recovered.

God Bless!!

I just want to bump this so I can find it again tomorrow and finish reading.

Looking back at this thread, which was started just a few months ago, makes me realize how far I have come.

Thank you to all who posted on this topic. Once I realized that I could still love my WH and be in a rock solid Plan B, I released that and was able to move forward.

With the help of this AWESOME community, I have not only been able to SURVIVE my WH's A, I have begun to THRIVE.

This is where I hope to be soon. I know I'm being pretty unreasonable to think that it will happen right away since I've only been in Plan B since Wednesday, but there's no harm in having goals, dreams, aspirations...LOL

I will say that my Plan B came as a total shock to my WW. She had just called me the day before to talk about DD. It was quick and brief. Then the next day, I fell off the face of the earth.

And this is how it's done folks.

Obviously, this wasn't a literal description of what happen, but in some ways, it's kinda what it feels like. I think my timing couldn't have been better. What really made me decide was the week before she'd told me she was blocking my number from her phone. Then on Tuesday, she called and I realized that I couldn't call her if I wanted to. That was it.

Mark - Congrats on Plan B. Your health is going to skyrocket, and you will begin to feel so much better by the 4th of July.

Keep coming here for all your concerns, thoughts, vents, ideas, and anything else in between.

We are rooting for you, and hope this will snap your WW out of her fog.

God Bless Tough

But yet thats what it is supposed to feel like. WW probably won't feel it to the depth you do, but the message is clear. "I'm done with this crap at this level". You made a self-respecting descision, now the question is will she?

You allready know its up to her and that now she is left with her consequences she chose. You have provided her with a stable place to come back to, if she so chooses it, because you made the right choice. You don't take that treatment, does she want that kind of life?

Hats off to the dark plan Bs and thier healing properties.

Hang in there. We all know its hard at first but it gets better. All the way around.

I hope so. The 4th of July will begin a very tough period. It's the deadline for me to come up with my $300 to begin mediation. It follows the weekend of her family reunion. Three days later is WW b-day. The 11th is DD b-day. So needless to say, I hope that I am very much so at a different place.

Ok, my WH had two As. This one is lasting a long time. I suspect, like you do in the quote above, that WH could have had other As thru our entire M. But why is this OW so much more special than the one he had before?
He left his family for this one and he is still with her.
Also in some other post on this thread Dr. H says that WS will always be in love with OP...but I doubt this about my WH. If he had many OWs is he stil going to feel "hot" for them all?
And lastly...WH feels nothing for me and has demonstrated this many many times thru cruelty and total indifference...why can he have feelings for all his OW and not for his wife?
blessing

After reading this thread..........WOW!

It's very obvious that there are some members of this board who are DEEPLY in touch with their emotions!

And comparing that to the actions of the Waywards that I hear about here.......it's about selfishness on the part of the Waywards that makes any infidelity so difficult.

Thank You all who posted on this thread!

I'm in Plan A today......but each day as I ponder if I'm better off in Plan B.......I read just 1 more post.....that gets me through just 1 more day in Plan A.
Day by Day........

Here is a link to a radio clip where DrH addresses this very subject. LINK

Very interesting. I would seem by DrH's assessment that the darker you are in Plan B, the more likely that your LB balance will remain the same for your WS and you will actually continue to love them. It is very helpful to realize that this is quite normal, and doesn't mean that I am doing anything wrong, in fact, it would seem I am doing things correctly.

This thread was much needed for me to figure out that what is going on for me is normal for Plan B... or as normal as I am going to get at this stage

This is definitely a must read for all Plan B'ers.

Any chance it can get put into notable posts?

BUMP

Interesting .....


Noteworthy? Maybe.

Wow.
So interesting Scotty!

Thats funny coming from you as you were the worst offender in my thread about trashing my WW.

you were the worst offender in my thread about trashing my WW

I thought I took that honor, LnT!

And even though Trip can defend himself, let me make the following point: Very often the BS (and I'll even specify BH) comes here in such shock ("That can't be my wife's actions,...It must be a mistake,...She must have meant/done/ implied/said something else!") that their internalization of what is actually being done to them by the skank-ho is painfully, obviously flawed. Using language such as I just did tends to strip away the rose-coloured specs and reveal that a WW is what her actions define her to be, not what the BH chooses to remember her as having been.

Calling a skank a skank will have no effect if she's not.

An adulterous woman is not always a "skank". Often she is a WW. Not anything worse.

I think we all (including myself) ought to be aware and remind ourselves that we want these marriages (most of them) to survive and thrive after adultery.

When are we counter productive to that goal? We need to each evaluate our own actions and assess if we are venting because we have not healed our own selves, or we are being useful to the goal of marriage building.

I know for a fact I have attacked many a beloved wayward spouse.
Usually when I am so angry and frustrated with that wayward's treatment of a poster I have come to care about.

Case in point.
HerPapaBear.
I thought he was a hopeless piece of crap.
I cared so much for his wife, MamaBear, that I could not see past my own resentment of him.

I can think of other marriages where I was so P-O'd at the wayward I could not think of any way in hell the marriage was salvageable.
I hated their wayward guts.
Yet, the marriage turned around.
I regret things I have written that was/could have been an impediment to a successful recovery.

I know I am not innocent.
I know I am vulnerable to name calling.
It's a struggle I have yet to win.
But, a struggle I am at least aware I need to make.

I think you ought to ask the betrayed spouse if there is an effect.
You cannot be the arbiter of the effect your words have on the BS.

An adulterous woman is not always a "skank". Often she is a WW. Not anything worse.

Is my reputation so far gone that you would decline to recognize that I might apply discretion to my use of pejoratives?

But additionally, Pep, with the notable exception of HPB, OUR condemnation of WSs, especially the ones who attained "skankhood" never comes to their attention. The (hopefully salutary) effect is limited to the BSs.

I have remarked that RAGE has come to be, unfairly, treated as anathema in the modern, oh-so-genteel, society. Rage, kept within controls, is a powerful tool and motivator. I foopin' guarantee, that if RAGE was more generally accepted, the incidence of the weak-livered, tremulous BH, teetering at, and dithering about, the performance, even after understanding the necessity, of a correct exposure would just about disappear. (I do recall, during one of our first counselling sessions, my bride foggily saying that she thought that if I discovered, and objected(!), to her actions, I would approach her with my concerns quietly, and discuss them. At which point I asked her specifically WHEN in my life I had ever behaved � la David Niven or Noel Coward! The fog lifted VERY fast!)

In summary, then, I'd opine that your concern about "things I have written that was/could have been an impediment to a successful recovery" is most likely groundless. On the contrary, those moments of honesty more likely had beneficial effects on balance.

Pep...

Thank you so much for this post. It is a good reminder to all of us. You humility and grace is shining.

I also want to add that when we came here 9 months ago, we were well along in recovery and **I** was the one who was in need of the most help, not my FWW. She was terrified to post seeing how some folks were treated, and still is to a degree (and that does not discount the awesome advice and direction we have received from everyone here on many things).

Anyway, thanks for this is all I wanted to say...

CV

And I was wrong in doing so, was I not?

Sir, I am merely a mortal and perpetual student.

When I worked in the grocery store, I used to bristle at people that would come in and buy a ton of groceries on food stamps and then go get into a luxury SUV and drive away. Until, that is, I was deep into schooling and that person was ME.


Arrogant I may be, but beyond reproach I am not.

NG

It is the BS's ears that are the most tender.
It is toward the BS with tender ears and a broken heart I am expressing my concern.

I am certain I have been not always been as helpful as I possibly could have been. I am not above reproach.

NG I'm going to invite you over to the Other Topics forum because I have a few questions. Hope you don't mind.

Thanks.

Pep, this came at a time more important than you could possibly imagine. So interesting that this would be brought up to me today, when I need it MOST.

Also, Pep, there is something that I want to remind you of. I wish I could look it up on my thread better than I have time for now, but I remember when I first came here, you expressed that you and the posters on MB held no contempt for my WH. That you fought ADULTERY, and that if he were to come here, you would help him. That made me see even more that MB was the right place for me. See, I myself don't hold ill-will towards him, and I didn't need to have others bad-mouthing him. Did I vent? Of course, but it would be very hurtful for me to have others bash him. Funny, eh?

I seriously think it would have been an amazing opportunity to work under, and learn from, you in a professional setting.

Awwwwwww. Thanks HHH.

That's so interesting, Muppet.

You don't know how right you are. MANY MANY THANKS. I will take my door, and avoid the wall.

Maybe but you're from NY so I just figured that was the way you talked and looked over it lol.

The thing is, even if the WW very much deserves to be called whatever, if you verbally attack a man's wife, wayward or not, they are going to defend her PERIOD.

BTW, I do appreciate you and HHH being here as well as the rest of the posters. This site is a God send for very many people.

...if you verbally attack a man's wife, wayward or not, they are going to defend her...

Maybe.
Maybe not.

No, LNT, you are right.


I was wrong to insult your wife - and my intentions gave me no right to do so.

I'm guessing I'd still be picking my teeth out of the toilet today had I said such a thing to your face.

Dr. Harley doesn't speak so poorly of other people's spouses, and I should expect better of myself.


I am sorry, LNT.

It's a beautiful thing .... learning from our mistakes.

This tickled me a great deal. What like, 'Pass the salt dear and oh if you wouldn't mind I object to your adultery, stop that wont you my love?!'



I think its really important to keep in mind that the A is the enemy not the wayward.

The affair HAS taken possession of the wayward for a time, but it may not be forever. When I call waywards crazy, loony and untrustworthy I am talking about gollum, not smeagol (if you dont mind me using the lord of the rings as an analogy) I think we must always remember that we must help smeagol where we can to free themselves from being gollum.

NG,

My story was the opposite; she expected rage and was met with calm.

Homework; view the movie Equilibrium.

I'll type up the analogy when I get home.

My story is in the NG camp. He is the yankee dawg version of ME. Sans the big hair and suthen accent, of course....

I was sent to "anger management" at a very young age due to my temper.

Now, when my rage-o-meter maxed out, all of my emotions flatline. I become very calm, cold, and logical. Not, however, in a "good" sense.

Think of the TV show Dexter, and Dexter doing his "work."

In Equilibrium, the human population drugs themselves to do away with all emotion. One of their enforcers turns. When he finds out he was living a lie towards the end, they have him on something like a polygraph to see if he is "feeling."

When the SHTF, the graphs flatline, and all the guards can say is "Oh, shiiiiii..."

Not violent, no shouting... Just very stone-like.

Thank you HHH. I did understand what you were trying to do and I thank you for all your efforts to help me and the other BS's of this board.