Definitely an EA. I discovered about two hours ago.
Its now 4AM in the morning. I can't go back to bed. I found out by snooping previously secret undisclosed emails.

We have been working on our marriage a while now. All of 2010 in therapy, The first 8 months were horrible. But since September I've been inthe game. I wasn't a great husband, but I was "content" and I am a good, decent man. I did not see her unhappiness. I sensed something was going on in 2009.

The EA was definitely in 2009. And she has at least two friends and her brother and sister totally in on it. They actually made plans to take her out to see the guy. Really mad.

I am working so hard and making progress. I think her knowledge about the EA and all the lies that piles up is holding her back from getting in the marriage game.

So, what do I do? I need to not confront for a week or so? I have started with my own counselor in the past four months. (See? Another BIG change for me. I am really working HARD. And reading everything) SO maybe I should just leave him a VM Monday morning.

PLEASE HELP.
Help me with the next hour. THe next six hours. THe next 12.
The next one day.
How do I get through Sunday?

I'm sorry you find yourself in this situation. How is it you just now found emails related to a relationship in 2009? If she's still not really "into" the marriage now, how sure are you she's not still in that EA or another one?

I think you need current information about what she's doing. I wouldn't reveal to anyone what you know yet until you know for sure what's going on NOW.

Can you do more investigation and get a better handle on what she's up to?

Gosh, I guess so. I don't know what else to do to uncover more. But wow she lied so, so much to me.

This email account was her "secret" email account. I discovered it and read everything. Nothing with the guy. He never wrote her. Her friends keep referring to him as a fantasy. I am certain she snuck off at least once with the plan to start a PA. It may not have happened. She wove a big web of lies and her friends and siblings were in on it !

She definitely kissed this man. She and her friends and her brother went out purposefully often to see him. She was just done with me at the time. Felt empty in the marriage. I read no talk whatsoever about it on the emails past December.

PLEASE ADVISE.... shall I try to do everything in my power NOT to confront? Take a lot of time? Call my therapist on MOnday morning ASAP?

Maybe it's the early hour and not sleeping, but I'm not sure I understand if you think the affair is going on NOW. You referred to 2009 for an EA....do you think she's currently involved in any way with him or someone else? When I say involved, I mean email, phone calls, seeing him in person?

I do not think so. I have tried to snoop a lot.
She stopped using the secret email since our marriage therapy really got going. Then, all 201, she wrote a novel. I am really proud of her. But its hard because so much of the book was clearly autobiographical. THat's a whole nother thread.

I think there is no EA or PA now.

I have proof of an EA last year. There was a kiss for sure!

I know you are very upset. I remember what it's like to find out your spouse is cheating on you. You need to take some time right now to calm down and get a plan together on how you will proceed. The experienced people on this site can help you more than I. I'm sure they will be along when day breaks.

For right now, try to calm yourself. Don't do anything while you are so upset and emotional. You need to make sure you don't make the situation worse by being overly emotional with no plan for what to do next once you let her know you know.

I would wonder if marriage counseling has been going nowhere for all of 2010 whether she's still involved with the same man or someone else. I frankly think you need to try to snoop further to find out what's going on currently with her.

Hold it together for today. Don't do anything related to confronting her till the pros here can advise you.

I do think if you need to see your therapist for yourself you should definitely do so. This is a crisis NOW for you whether what happened is in the past or continuing till the present.

I am very glad you are here at this crazy hour. Just gotta hold it together all day tomorrow.

I can't breathe. Ugh. The web of lies they were engaged in.
This has gotta be a big reason why our marriage work stalled.

I really, REALLY worked hard on it since September. Loads of progress. But she gave up on me more than a year before that. So she fell out of love with me a couple years ago. Me working on it since Sept hasn't brought her back.

But now, I realize all her lies and guilt are a big part of what's holding us back.

Still shocked at the level to which she had enablers in her girlfriends and siblings !!

1 - Send all incriminating e-mails to your own account.

2 - Print them out and save them hardcopy as well.

3 - Get all information dates, places, co-conspirators, and lay out a timeline.

4 - Get OM's name, contact info, as possible.

5 - Get a keylogger and put in on the computer she uses.

6 - Install Flexispy on her cellphone

7 - Buy a GPS tracker for her car, inbstall it.

8 - Buy a VAR and hide it in her car

9 - Buy a separate small recorder and carry it with you, turned ON at all times you are in proximity of your WW

10 - Brace yourself to find out this is a full PA.

A full PA is totally possible.

I remember last fall she asked a bunch of questions of me:
--How can I trust you when you travel so much.
--I am afraid you are going to tell me about an affair.

So many damn clues !!

If there are no emails from OM, then there is another way that they were in contact, you just haven't found it yet. Have you checked her cell phone records? If it's "clean", then there may be/have been an affair phone. Might want to search around for one...

Do you have OM's full name? You mentioned leaving him a VM, I was wondering how you got his phone #?

Does your WW have a FB account? Is she FB friends with OM?

Well I saved some of the emails to a zip stick before anyone wakes up this morning. Not enough time to save them all. But its incriminating to her and the four people who knew. (girlfriends, brother and sister)

What kind of support network are they?!?!

Hi there, so sorry you have found yourself here, this place is a great source of information and support........
The vets have already laided out a plan for you. comfirmation of what is really going on is key, keeping calm during that process is crucial......
Don't tip her off and don't tell her about this site........this is your place to come and vent, cry and get support...........
Go to therapy.
Breathe and try to stay in the moment and don't imagine all kind of things that might not be true..............(hugs)

I have his name. I went to his facebook page. They are not friends.
According to the emails she texted and left him VM. I don't think he ever answered. SO she had to go to the bar to find him. Seems that way.
But there is a lot more.
Also, she was really looking at other men. Very flirty. I think her sister and friends are a web of cheaters actually. Just figuring that out.

OK but have you checked the actual cell records? If you don't have the paper bills, with many cell carriers, you can check the old records online. Have you tried this?

I realize all her lies and guilt are a big part of what's holding us back.

Well, that'll do it for sure.

I'm a bit confused, or maybe I'm not. You said they didn't know each other, she sent him e-mails, and left voice-mails, you don't believe he's ever responded, and she had to go to a bar (where she knew he would be?) to see him. So, evidently he's some kind of celebrity/public figure (musician perhaps?) and your 40-year-old wife is some kind of middle-aged groupie?

How'm I doing?

You are close.
He plays in a cover band at bars around the suburbs. Her girlfriend knew one of the guys in the band. They went to see them play a lot. He flirted with her.
Clearly there was kissing. And going out to see them intentionally, with her enablers, more than once.
I think the first kiss was summer of 2009 right before her 40th b-day. Then again I read about kissing in October.

stretch, do you think this is an affair or is your wife a groupie?

And it sounds like your wife goes out partying on her own without you? Can I ask why she does that?

You right that her affair <?> is the real problem in your marriage. You can't recover a marriage when there is an affair.

She came downstairs this morning and I looked at her and I knew I would forgive her. Its not an issue. We will survive.

But I am looking to the pros and vets for help. Fortunately I have already read a lot of Harley in the past months so I understand this a lot more and I'm a teeny bit prepared.

Church this morning. Just going to pray to make it through the day.

stretch, I wouldn't be so hasty in your forgiveness. Handing her a free forgiveness pass is not going to solve the problem. But giving her an opportunity to earn your forgiveness will.

I would start by confronting her with the evidence. Tell her you are willing to give her an opportunity to earn your forgiveness. What it will take to recover your marriage is for her to affair proof your marriage and commit to a plan of recovery. The recovery of your marriage will be almost entirely contingent on your wife's willingness and ability to make radical changes. Her lifestyle must become absolutely transparent, holding nothing back. She is in no position to negotiate when it comes to extraordinary precautions, because those precautions are designed to prevent another affair and help you feel safe. Your wife must make an 180 degree turn in order for this work out. That means certainly that she STOP running around in bars without you.

If she won't agree to that, then you don't have a marriage, you have a death of a thousand cuts.

Here is what has to happen in order to turn this around:

here

stretch, check out this article about why it is a mistake to hand out forgiveness before it is earned: Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?

Allright. I hear you loud and clear.
I just know there is some hope. Thank God I have learened so much from MB before I knew about this !!
The 180 degree turn I understand too. She is not open and honest. Increasingly secretive. Obviously. Carrying on with all her friends helping her.
While I get the 180 degree turn in the road -- I can't see two feet in front of me now. Its DDay plus 9hrs and I still have to gather evidence.
I can hardly breathe !

I must say, taking the incriminating evidence of emails and saving them, copying them is very empowering.

Why would her family gang up on you?

Who would be your support?

Stretch,

My daughter is a musician. She and her band are constantly hit up with "offers" from groupies (I almost typed "gropies" - same difference LOL). All musicians are NOT cheaters.

My DD is married and has "rules of the road", which are followed closely to avoid this exact issue. She has had stalkers from all over. One MM actually stalked her and named his daughter after her, and his wife didn't even know. How sick is this world?

Anyway.

Your WW may be "in love" with someone who doesn't even know she exists. It happens with bands. As for the "kiss" - she very well could have kissed him as he left the stage, and she says it was something more because she fantasizes it was more. Wait until you have proof. My DD has people who post to her all the time how much they want to marry her (she IS married, dorks!), and that they love her (she doesn't KNOW YOU, dorks!), and they even come up to her on the street and talk to her like they know her as BFF.

Get the facts........then panic if you have to.

HOWEVER......

Your wife needs to NOT BE GOING OUT TO THE CLUBS without YOU.

Your new strategy????



"Oh, you're going out tonight? Great! I'm coming too!" And you do not announce this until she is walking to the DOOR. Get up and go with her.

SB

Well they sat in the van for an hour and talked. He sang her a song. They kissed a little. That was one episode.

Need to acquire the emails and read them more thouroughly to build a timeline. I think he probably woo'ed her into the sack once/twice, and then she was a needy groupie. Lots of needy girl talk with her friends: "why didn't he call... he won't answer my text... let's go see the band next weekend."

I will figure out more. In her emails it sounds like a PA took place.

You are close.

Close? Dude, I nailed it!

Anyway, you have something that a lot of BH's don't have. You have his identity. You can find out if he's married/engaged/attached. That makes you much more powerful in the attack you're about to launch.

As for the skank-ho facilitators: It may be that their morals are so abysmally low that "telling" them something that they already know (your wife is a cheater) might not be a tremendous shock, to them but......

Do these ladies have husbands? Ah, yes, THEY might be interested in learning what goes on on these "ladies nights"?

So put together all your evidence, as generated in the actions I suggested in your first note. The end result will be a simultaneous exposure of your wife's infidelity to her family (yep, Mom and Dad too), the spouses of her sister-skanks, the family and significant other of the OM, your children, the clergy at your wife's religious group......

DO NOT GIVE HER ANY HINT OF WHAT YOU'RE DOING. she will pre-empt your "strike" by telling all those folks what an irrational controlling SOB you are. (BTW: the secret recorder I told you to buy is personal protection. When you DO expose, and the ton of.....dung....lands on her, she will be very angry. Textbook WS training tells her to drum up a bogus domestic violence charge against you, and the recording you'll have will protect you from this.)

I'm about five months ahead of you in this process. What I can tell you is keep your head, and when they tell you to expose - even if you don't want to or think it will work do it!

The best thing I need is a recording device for her phone and for the home phone. Help me out. I know nothing.
The best evidence is when she starts talking to her girlfriends on the phone and they download. I do have about a year plus of emails. No evidence of PA in there yet but its close. Clearly, she had the intention. I need to read them more slowly.

I also have two denials in the past few months. We're working hard on relationship and she knew I would ask someday. I am a dumb husband but not THAT dumb. And she denied anything both times. Very prepared and cool.

So help me out... how do I record the home line and her cell phone?

Need it fast actually. I got a denial from her this afternoon so I am afraid she will go into damage control and talk with girlfriends all week.

This afternoon we were having a long talk about why I was awake all night... how she knows I am very troubled... how she knows its hard. We talked about what is holding us back in therapy.

I suggested, "Something is holding us back.. maybe holding you back. Something you haven't been able to express." I said, "I know that a couple years ago you fell out of love, left me in your mind, imagined you were out of the marriage. I am scared of what you might have done."

"I did nothing." she said calmly.

Its empowering to have the denial. But now I may have blown it.

Help me with the phone snooping. Based on EVERYTHING I have EVER read from Harley, the betrayed Spouse is totally entiltled to snoop! No guilt from me.

Radio Shack Recorder Control - $28.49 For use with a hidden tape recorder
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062697

or go here:
|
Voice Activated Digital Recorder (Unlimited Storage)
http://www.brickhousesecurity.com/dr-22.html

For her cell phone you can download and install flexispy. It won't give you tape recordings of her calls, but will give you her text messages and a call log of incoming and outcoming. flexispy.com

You might also install a GPS unit: a pricey one that hooks right into your car: http://www.intouchmvc.com/codriver-obd-vehicle-tracking-device.html

a cheaper one that has to be re-charged: http://mashable.com/2009/10/27/little-buddy-tracker/

this was a huge mistake. You should never ASK a liar for the truth. I don't understand why you just don't tell her you know? You have email evidence. What are you waiting for? Why do you feel you need more evidence?

I would set her down and tell her that you have concrete evidence of her affair with __________. Throw in enough details so she knows you know. If she tries to deny it, then hold your hand up and say, "oh no, don't make this worse, I already know."


This is a futile game that will avail you nothing. Don't ASK, just TELL. Go tell her you know about the affair. If she asks how, tell her you have been spying on her. If she asks how, tell her you won't divulge your methods.

Here is something that you're not going to want to hear.

While you "know" and are in the process of gethering evidence that she's catting around on you, you should not consider yourself as a discussion partner with your WW. You and she are actually on opposite sides of a fierce, and total, battle. It is arrayed thus:

You, decency, and the future of your marriage
******* against ********
Her, deceit, and her addiction to the "easy EN fix" of POSOM

Her initiatives in wanting to "talk" are only masks for her interest in finding out what you know, and how well she's kept you clueless about her activities. Try this little test: Be less and less open and forthcoming in discussions with her, and watch her bring out the "How about a little nookie?" card. If you don't bite, that will be followed by the guilt card - "Well, I guess you're not interested in saving our marriage!", said while walking away in a huff.

Wait for them, they'll be there soon if your silence is effective and starts her thinking.

Stretch,

If you have emails regarding the hour in the van and a kiss


you have enough to nail her.


Put a voice-activated recorder in the car she drives. GPS device, too.


Also, put a voice-activated recorder in the room she hides in to make her "private" cell phone calls.


It won't take long.


BTW, and I hate to say this, groupies are often let down VERY HARD. They mean nothing to these guys. And I mean nothing. It is a hard thing to watch, to hear, and to know, but it is the truth. Fact is, many of the band guys on the road cannot even recognize the girl they slept with on Friday night in a crowd of girls on Saturday night. Ugly truth.

SB

Glad you're her stretch123....hang in there. Just like a lot of us, we are looking for answers daily and I'm sure you'll find it here but you do have to remain calm and keep praying.....we are all here for you.

stretch, have you snooped? What have you done to confirm this PA? (It's not an EA if they've kissed. And if they've kissed, they quite likely have gone farther than that.)

[I am a dumb husband but not THAT dumb. And she denied anything both times. Very prepared and cool.]


Get this stretch123, my D day was 3years ago and i am only now just trying to do some snooping. So you're not dumb by any stretch of the imagination. We trust our spouses because that's the requirement for a healthy relationship. When they betray us, we feel played...when in fact, they're the sick ones. So I'll tell you what a vet here told me yesterday.....don't be so hard on yourself.....

I STILL snoop, and my FWH has completely earned his F. One thing a lot of married people don't seem to get is that you should NEVER trust your spouse 100%. We're all wired for affairs. I'm sorry, newsong, but trusting your spouse is NOT required for a healthy relationship. Trusting my spouse helped him conduct his affair until the OWH busted them. So, no. Complete trust is poison for a relationship. Complete trust equals complacency, and THAT is unhealthy for a marriage.

It is important to know that you and your spouse need to be completely open with each other. No hidden passwords, no secret phones or email addresses, etc. Nothing should be hidden from scrutiny. And your spouse needs to understand that you will do whatever it takes to keep your M safe. I have a lot of snooping tools that I use to this day. It makes me feel safe, and it confirms that my H is totally transparent and faithful.

I will go so far as to say that it stuns me that I was as trusting of my spouse as I was pre-affair.

Its DDay +15 hours. And I am not going to die today.

Thank you everyone for being there. Especially those who were online at 3AM.

So thankful I learned about MB months ago. Little did I know...
But having the knowledge base meant a lot today.
I have copied about a dozen emails to zip stick when I had the chance. Plenty more to copy overnight. I am going to Radio Shack tomorrow because the next batch of info will come as she talks to her girlfriends, sister and brother on the phone. (Again, those enablers! WTH!! Three of them are godparents to our children. SHAME ON THEM ! ETERNAL SHAME ! for letting her do this. They have a reckoning for certain.)
Spent some time crying out back while shoveling some snow.
Glad I have a therapist that knows me for about 20 sessions I can call in the morning. Glad I started Citalopram anti-depressents in Nov. Just happened to double the dose last week. Good timing.

I will live through this!

The ache in my stomach right now. My heart wants to explode.
Feels good to do some proactive snooping.
I hope I can drug myself to sleep tonight. If she wants SF I just can't do it. We might be about due for that.

I just keep rereading the emails I found. There are a hundred more to copy. Sooner or later one of them will confirm the PA, I just know it.

Why me? Was I that bad a husband? Really. She and her friends and siblings felt so justified to do this to our family... I am gonna be sick

Breathe, man, breathe.

It sounds like you might suffer from an anxiety disorder. Is that the case? I do, and as a BS, the first few days were beyond tough.

You'll make it. Breathe. See if your doctor will prescribe you Ambien or a benzodiazipine (if you have anxiety like I do, those will be LIFESAVERS.

Best wishes. Remember, there's another side - and you will get there.

I HAVE. And you WILL.

Breathe In / Out In / Out.

Things to do DDay plus one:
1. Call my doctor for anti-axiety meds like Ambien or a benzodiazipine
2. Call my personal therapist
3. Go to Radio Shack
4. Just keep breathing

I inquired with an Investigative service. He said wiretapping would be committing several felonies. They would not help.

Don't forget the keylogger for her computer. You can buy it online and save it to a thumb-drive, for later installation on her machine. It will ask you to "shield" it from her security program, so you'll need a bit of time to do that. (A small recompense maybe for occasionally being up at 3am?)

Hey NeverGuessed or anyone else.
Why would the Investigation firm tell me that recording my home phone line or keylogging would be a wiretapping felony?

Keylogger recommendations?

Its a laptop. No keyboard. Need something with USB connection.

What do you mean by no keyboard? Here is one that installed via a USB:

Stealth iBot Computer Spy � $149.00 [installed via USB port]
http://www.brickhousesecurity.com/pc-computer-spy.html?green=17483872245

Going with Webwatcher. $97. NEver need to download at 3AM. Monitor from your computer on website online.

Please explain why the betrayed spouse does not need to feel guilt about this? I am justified. Entitled. On the right side here? Just give me a pep talk please.

Webwatcher is installed via online system on the target computer then you never need to go back and touch that machine. Monitor from your website that you log in.
Its invisible to the target user

Because they have to say that. Technically you need to let the other persons using the device know that there is a form of surveillance on the phone or computer in question. They will demur to install the surveillance equipment to avoid legal problems.

I skipped all that business and installed my spy stuff myself.

Stretch, I used WebWatcher. It worked just fine for me. One thing to make sure of is that if there is an anti-virus program, make sure you set it to ignore the keylogger.

Sorry you have to be here. We're the best club that no one wants to join.

Now that it's Monday, the veterans will be along to help. And help they will!

Please understand that some of the things you'll be advised to do will go against your "first instincts." Save yourself the internal struggle and just follow directions!!! Many of our first instincts do nothing more than enable an affair and push the WS away.

During the times you are waiting for feedback and advice, try to read everything you can on this site! Start with the box to the right outlined in red, called "Most Popular Links." Not only is there terrific, life- (and marriage-)saving information contained there, but without understanding the concepts, you will be at a loss to understand what you're going through, how to deal with it, and how to recover.

Buckle up. You're in for the ride of your life. But you can -- and will -- survive. We'll help you do it the fastest, way possible.

Probably because they didn't want to get involved in any legal complications. No idea about the wiretapping, but you can put whatever you want to on your own computer. Key word there--your computer, one that you own or purchased and not, say, a company's computer.

You're doing the right thing, you did nothing wrong.

Tell us about the cellphone. Is it one of those touchscreen phones where your wife can text and access the web? Another cellphone thing is www.mobistealth.com. They claim that they can record calls to certain numbers, but it's not guaranteed and, in my case, didn't work. But they do show texts and calls made.

Is the phone on your plan or through her employer? If all else fails, just cancel text/internet or "lose" the phone. .

The phone is a Droid. Touch screen.
I can see texts and phones. It does not lock.

The phone last year was a T Mobile simple phone. THe number has changed. I think we can no longer get those records. I am trying. WOuld help to count up the number of texts and calls to his number. Dates...etc

We used to have those records. Hard to get now that the number has changed. And the provider changed. THoughts?

Stretch, I can see the distress you�re in, and I feel for you because that was me not that long ago. No it isn�t you, there is nothing wrong with you. Do you think this is a bad reaction or you aren�t strong enough to handle this? You�re wrong, every BH on this board was there at one point, even the vets. No you weren�t perfect, but no one is. So you hang on, breath, eat, sleep or at least lie down and rest. Take care of yourself. Do a good job at work, even if you�re distracted as he*l. This will change and this will get better. Your wife is not going anywhere. � well she might but if she does there is a whole world of great women out there. Here�s what you do:
Keep taking the advice.
When the time comes and Mel tells you to expose DO IT. I promise you will feel better after.
Protect your kids � by acting on the advice.
Know that you are going to get past this, with or w/o your wife.

I was in your shoes five months ago. And I was the one finding excuses not to expose six weeks ago after the affair reignited. But I took action and I feel better. Not the same as before all this, just better.
BTW her enablers are very poor human beings�just my .02

Try the keylogger called Desktop Shark .. its free and does not alarm your antivirus.

Good job, you have every right to know what is going on with your wife, it's not alright to inappropriate relationship with members of the opposite sex while you are married, you are doing this to save your marriage. You have to have proof and then you expose the affair to everyone close to her.........that should break up the affair................then you can work on rebuilding a better marriage......

You can check her underwear for semen that is not yours. The semen may be quite old and it will still check out.

Google "Checkmate" as on of the home checks. Not that it matters to you but it will hold in court!

Yes, you are in the right because your WW is in the grasp of an addiction. She broke your trust, and you are doing everything you can to save your marriage. First and foremost, that means getting the truth. She is lying to you, so you HAVE to have a keylogger on to verify the real story.

You are being a warrior. Carry on, friend.

DDay + 36 hours. Still breathing.

1) Told my physician. I got Ambien and Xanax.
2) Told my therapist. Went in to see him. Read all the evidence. I got mad, I cried, I broke down (takes me a while b/c I hold on to control) He said, "That was good. You are angry! Be angry! I am glad to see that. You need to be angry."
3) Recreating the Timeline with all the saved material I have
4) Going to download an undetectable keylogger tonight
5) Actually had a GREAT productive Marriage Therapy sesson this morning. How ironic. Maybe because I feel in control.
6) Actually had a great 90 minute Finance session today together. Good work for us on both.
7) Went to Radio Shack. I hate the options. Bulky, loads of chords. Seems like Voice Activated is a must if you don't have a zillion hours to waste. But it requires chorded phone.... lots of mess. Easy to discover.
8) I am developing "A PLAN" Very empowering. Planning for exposure day.
9) I am still breathing.

I'd let things die down a bit b/c you do not want the ws to know that an exposure is planned, gives them time to concoct stories, spin tales of you being a "crazy, jealous husband", and most of all, prepare. You need to do it when everybody is off guard.

I will take it slower. Just the keylogger first. I am not comfortable with the phone devices. Very big and bulky. Nowhere to hide that.

Question for you about email. Anyone know how to access very old mail from AOL. Stuff from 18 mos ago automatically disappears.

Where are you trying to find the old mail? Is it saved? You can't undelete deleted mail on aol.

And I'm not sure what you're doing with the phone - what are these bulky devices?

Keylogger is good. Get the eblaster from www.spectorpro.com There are others that may cost less, but I have no experience with them so I can't vouch for them. Maybe others can chime in on those.

For the phone, that's where I will get information from her co-conspirators. Her friends and siblings. They talk all the time. But you need to plug one into a jack, then get recording device and a connecting jack. The voice activated one requires a phone with a chord.

Its a lot of hardware that can't easily be concealed. I don't think that recording phone conversations while she is in the house alone where they could reveal a lot of information is going to be very easy.

You accomplished a lot today! Feel proud of yourself for being a man of action so far, and let this momentum continue.

Don't be afraid to use the Ambien or Xanax AS PRESCRIBED - you are going through a really tough time.

But don't be afraid of what's ahead, just focus on the next step and follow the advice of the veteran posters here. Keep doing as they say and it will be step-by-step, very easy to follow, and bring results.

You ARE in control. I'm glad that helps you feel better.

You might want to search for MelodyLane's thread SPYING 101. I'm not an expert, but I think there's some good options for gathering the information that you have a right to know.

You're going to hide a VAR near the phone, right? That should take care of recording her when she's on the phone in the house.

[quote=Arpeggi]Breathe, man, breathe.


Arpeggi, you're advice late last night to "breathe, man, breathe." was a lifesaver. Thank you. Please stick around. Everyone has been great.

marital bliss.
Sorry this phone thing is so confusing. There are about four lines in the house. she can have a conversation in any room. So I am getting one of the devices that records anything said on any line by tapping into one of the unused jacks in the house.

stretch, make sure this is something that can't be seen - you don't want to tip her off that you're bugging the phones. It'll drive her underground.

Four lines? Or four wall jacks? A well hidden VAR will pick up any conversation (one-sided). As for recording directly off the line, make sure that the other party doesn't get an intermittent beep to alert them that the call is being recorded. You don't want this to backfire.

guess I don't know what to do about the phone conversations. But I will test and experiment

Stretch please let us know what works when you find one. Planning to install on WH phone...have you considered VAR?

Glad to hear it, my friend. I'm not going anywhere, and will check in on your thread every time I log on to MB. It's the least I can do after the advice at this site saved me when I went through my WXW's affair. Let me know if I can help you in any way, and remember to just breathe! The most important thing to know is that when you get through this, you WILL feel better than you can imagine now. The pain is temporary - and you will feel so much stronger for having gone through this experience. Small comfort now, I'm sure, but keep your eyes fixed on the goal in the distance as you stay strong and take the high road. I'm really impressed by all that you got done today.

Also, laughter helps. Got any comedies that you like? Give yourself time to laugh. Xanax, Arrested Development (my personal favorite comedy series) and my family and friends saved my life that first summer after I separated from my ex.

Best wishes amigo, and remember I (and many others) are here for you!

Arpeggi

Whew! You're a lifeline.
I cried over and over yesterday. I lay in bed crying and wife rubbed my back. (actually feels better when she touches me. Affection I discovered last fall is my #1 EN)

Since our counseling together has been hard -- and the new marriage counselor has been much better, greater results and breakthroughs, there were a lot of reasons I could go into to explain my sudden depth of tears. And they were all true. Good things to be in touch with. But I had the strength not to disclose that I know about the affair. You vets on MB gave me that strength.

There is more time and work needed before I am ready for that. Not strong now. Barely sleeping for crying out loud. How strong can I be with 7 hrs sleep in three nights?

I found OM phone number btw. A weak alias on her contact list. Feels empowering to have clues. Now I have to try to get old records that are hard to obtain.

Going to play with VAR -- but hidden VAR. The phone jack is too risky.

Testing keyloggers.

I need to get some projects done for work. I have an associate there who senses something is up. Not a full confidant. But he senses something. And he offered to take as much of my work right now as he can. Blessed for that.

Meanwhile... gotta just breathe

Get four digital activated VAR's.

Flexispy looks really cool. But few phones work with it.

Other suggestions for tracking cell phone activity? And GPS

Nevermind. I found some good choices that work on this particular phone online.
Simple online search. Silly that I asked. Like I can't find an answer on my own using the internet without asking the team?

Good sign though... I was able to think and act for myself.

DDAY +2.

Very little sleep. But I am building/following step by step plans. And I just problem solved, decided and acted on my own.

All these slow breathes in/out are slowly bringing me back to life.

VAR's in every room, if that's what it takes. VAR her car.

Sorry I've been away for a day, but you are doing fine. The keylogger option should be pursued with all speed. Let that "cook" for a few days, and keep your other actions going forward.

Finish your tentative timeline; put together your exposure plan/list. And be as normal as possible with WW.

@stretch123 -

You do realize that there is more to do besides Exposure?

Thank you clark kent. You are absolutely right. I am studying Harley's road to recovery and working with my personal therapist.

I understand so much better what was wrong with our marriage. 2009 was a big bad year. I saw her change and check out. I knew in my soul something was wrong.

But I get it. There is a lot more work to do besides exposure. I think you mean the recovery plan. DO you? It will be good to get myself ready for that so I can take charge. That's why holding on to the knowledge until you become "normal" again mentally and physically is important. Its way to early. I am not ready.

Right now its my belief that:
A) She may have never had sex with him. But there was kissing and sneaking around. Proven.
B) She broke contact before 2010 or early in 2010 and we started to work on the marriage... she started to work on herself in more healthier ways than going out to have fun. (involved in church. wrote a full novel)

I am not blindly accepting the above. Working to get information.

If I could suggest you should read up on the 4 Intimate Needs.

She may have never had sex with him.

It may be best for you to cease deluding yourself on this matter. A horned-up middle-aged groupie egged on by psychopathic group of accomplices, alone in a van for an hour with a narcissistic performer......probably were not discussing chords.

Eventually, if you can't get her to admit what did happen, you'll be reduced to a polygraph for the truth. There's time for that, of course. It's important for you to have set in your mind the reality of what happened, so when/if she starts swearing on her children that "NOTHING HAPPENED! WHAT DO YOU THINK I AM?" there will be no doubt in your mind what she was, and be tempted to give her the benefit of the doubt. All that will do is set the stage for a long, extended trickle-truth ordeal.

Remember Grandpa NeverGuessed's proverb, "If a man and woman could have slept together, they did sleep together!"

A lttlebetter this afternoon. Hopefully a good night sleep tonight.

SPen an hour with my therapist again today. No decisions until I can sleep but....

I am going to want to get this over with sooner rather than later. I feel a need for more evidence. I have enough today but shall collect more.

My therapist made a point that I like: The longer I now keep my secret "that I know" the worse I will feel. Its important that I confront in such a way to explain: I don't want any secrets. I want to be the one who enters OH and the truth.

They get mad sometimes about the snooping but there is no ground to stand on. Especially if you get it over with sooner than later. If I hold my snooping secret for a week or two... that's nothing compared to cheating and unfaithfulness for months. There is no room for indignation against the snooper. I have indignation against the web of co-conspirators that helped her do this to our marriage.

Another point I like: Therapist said, "So you weren't the greatest husband. So you were clueless, distant, awkward, hard to live with. So what she tried for years to break into your head and got frustrated and upset and hopeless. None of my poor husbanding was malicious, or conscious, planned, deliberate, collaborated cheating!"

I think everyone would agree, I can't figure out the end of my plan before I get myself rested.

Because it's been less than 72 hours since I found out. And I have slept approximately 6 hours.

The longer I now keep my secret "that I know" the worse I will feel.

You're just going to have to internalize the need for some "delayed gratification" in this matter. "Leaking" the exposure/confrontation will of itself reduce the impact of the effect, and, worse, give WW the opportunity to "put out" her deceitful version of reality, robbing your action of any effectiveness.

Therapist said, "So you weren't the greatest husband... None of (the) poor husbanding was malicious, or conscious, planned, deliberate, collaborated cheating!"

Your therapist sounds smarter than the norm. Most tend to dribble into the "Well, there were mistakes made on both sides, and........." garbage bin.

Eyes on the prize,s123. Eyes always on the prize.

Yeah Stretch, I like that statement your therapist made too!

Also, to echo an earlier poster, prepare yourself for the likely possibility of discovering that they had sex.

And it will be okay. Just be prepared emotionally. YOU are in control.
Remember, you have a "get out of jail free" card if you decide that you don't want to recover your marriage later. It will probably depend on how she reacts after exposure. Don't wait TOO long before exposing to everyone at the same time - the secret is going to take a toll on your emotional and mental health as you try to keep it in.

DDay Plus 72 hours Updates

Awake at 2AM again. The Ambien did not help. But this will improve. My heart does feel better.

--Enough evidence is saved now that I could handle exposure now if it happened suddenly (ie. my snooping got caught) and I would be ready
--I have allies and advocates (you guys plus my therapist)
--My therapist is excellent (and to think, when she was throwing rocks at my head 1+ yr ago, telling me something was wrong, I was the biggest resistor to therapy. Would not seek help.)
--Confirmed OM name, address, cell phone
--Keylogger is up and running! waiting for first downloads.
--I have a timeline of events, facts, co-conspirators
--Unwise manuever on my part, I conceed, but I do have additional denials.
--I have medical support (Ambien and Xanax) they will eventually start to work. My body has to recover itself any moment. 2AM adrenaline will wear me out physically.
--I have a recording device and know how to use it.
--I have a phone line tap system but hesitate to use it. Very easy to find. That one will wait.
--I have a vision for my marriage recovery. We have a stronger marriage now (do please believe me) and I am a million times better man than I was a year ago.
--I am developing an exposure plan and I know it will not be too long to that day. Probably a matter of weeks.

I do not have:
--All the evidence available.
--mobile phone tracker (but soon)
--Access to cell phone logs from 12+ months ago.
--recordings of co-conspirators
--The recovery plan and all the studying and learning necessary. (see clark kent above)
--Rest. I need a full 8hr sleep.

Friends: There is no way to know how this will end. But I know I will feel better based upon your counseling. Also, please be encouraged for us that we have made tremendous growth in the marriage in recent months. Some of you found recovery, some of you found divorce. But whatever your circumstances, please pray, wish, motivate and believe in our recovery as much as I do. Recently I found myself falling more deeply in love with her and found myself awakening, becoming introspective, becoming a better father, husband, man and really enjoying that. Then this DDay and soon the exposure. Please be motivated with me that we will be in the recovery group, and our marriage can turn the corner after the weight of this secret is gone.

Do not talk about Exposure to WS.

Be prepared for a rough time. Her support network is family and they have been facilitating this.

Remember to keep your eye on the prize.

It is clearly not time yet. I know this to be true.
Just trying to get my head and heart organized.

It appears that she and her friends/family forced closure on this in Nov 2009 (i know.. i know... don't be naive. keep snooping)

But let's say it was Nov 2009. Well, she has had 1+ year to get prepared for this to come to light. She spent all last year writing a cathartic journal about this.

I have had three days. Its crappy. Its not fair at all. Dammit, I am in touch with that anger. My therapist needs me to be angry. I deserve to be angry and hurt! But three days are not enough time. Its not nearly time at all.

btw - clark kent. I get what you mean about Plan A. There is more to do besides exposure. She and her facilitators in all this must make changes. They have lost rights and priveledges. Time for them to make some changes that help our relationship. COnsidering how much I have gone through the past months to work on me... and considering the horrific pain they placed upon me... they have no right to whine about losing some rights and priveledges. Time to change their ways. To lose some freedoms.

Good and bad thing at the same time:
Stepped on the scale and I have lost a lot of weight! (I am not eating much) Let's just pretend that's all a good thing / a silver lining. Please. Let's pretend losing some unneeded pounds is a small positive thing. I am going to choose to be happy about the number I saw on the scale (lower than in 15 years)

Stretch--I'm about 2 1/2 months out of D-Day and I lost more than 10 pounds in the first 2 weeks. I didn't need to lose the weight, but... this kinda thing seems universal.

I am, however, ALL ABOUT the silver linings. As unhealthy as it seems, it's a minor blessing, right? I'm still trying to find as many minor blessings as I can in my life.

Just make sure you're taking care of yourself as best you can--at least get a protein shake now and then, vitamins, or something nutritious to keep you going. I crashed after about 2 weeks (ate a huge meal then slept for probably 16 hours straight) because my body finally screamed "help!" at me.

Thanks for sharing that.

I would be lost without this group. I actually think my wife led me to the site. She is the one that bought "Affair Proof Marriage" at some point in the past year. I started using the website in November and she knew I was here. I remember saying once, "Boy, a lot of the dialogue on the site is for marriages going through an affair. Lot worse off couples than us."

She has practiced poker face for so long. She just said, "Why don't I just let you keep that forum for your own dialogue while we work on our marriage." I think she anticipated exposure a long time ago.

Again, I would be completely lost without you friends right now.

You can use this site as a relief valve to vent off your feelings when things pile up on you. We have all been through various forms of what you're feeling now, and often have an immediate palliative to recommend.

Be Strong.
Be Careful.
Be Vigilant.

Know this: This site is your best chance to turn your situation around.

Just a tangent from a pharmacological nerd - the Xanax and Ambien are conjunctive, short-acting medicines. Dr. Harley recommends betrayed spouses consider taking an SSRI anti-depressant to help with the primary symptoms of going through the painful time of infidelity.

I think you mentioned you are already taking Celexa (citalopram) - is it working for you? If Celexa isn't helping you, consider switching to Paxil (Celexa did NOTHING for me and I took it for over a year, although everyone's brain chemistry is different). Paxil (and Luvox, which is an older SSRI but, like Paxil, very "calming") both worked very well for calming me down long-term, and the Xanax and Ambien helped "fill in the gaps" as needed. A lot of people don't understand that all SSRIs have different mechanisms of action and that Prozac tends to be more "energetic" or "jittery" if you have anxiety like me while Paxil is more of a "sedating", "calming" SSRI.

That being said, Ambien got me to sleep but I would wake up in the middle of the night a lot too the first few weeks. Don't worry - that's normal. You're going through a traumatic experience. If your doctor says it's okay, you may need to take another "1 AM" Ambien.... that's what I did. Just remember it won't last forever - it won't last anywhere CLOSE to forever. Hang in there and know you'll be through the worst of it soon.

What dosage of Xanax / Ambien are you taking?

Best wishes,
Arpeggi

Great advice. I started SSRI Celexa (Citalopram) back in Nov. We were in about month two of the marriage realignment (well I was in month 2... she was in for years) I started at 20mg, just upped to 40mg literally one day before DDay. I think it helps me.

For sleep aid I take Trazodone 50mg (generic for Desyryl). I was crying last night at 11 but managed to fall asleep. WOke up at 4AM.

The Xanax is actually generic Alprazolam .25mg. I took half a pill twice yesterday. Once at 5AM and I got another 4hrs sleep. Once in the afternoon and it did not make me drowsy.

How's that for a recap?

4 days since I found out. I am better than the first few hours and day one. But really hurting.
Being proactive helps. My therapist got approval from my insurance to see me again today (3rd time this week)

Got a ton of emails. Keylogger does the trick.
Painful to fill in the blanks. He never wrote her. A school girl crush that never turned into PA. But there was intent. She planned to. Just lucky her crush wasn't all that interested. Or maybe, once he knew she was a confused 40yr married woman, he had stronger morals.

My DD gets tons of emails, too, as a musician. Like I said, they often speak of undying love.

Once, she was walking on the street with her bandmates, just window shopping. Her bodyguard was ahead with the boys......

and a man rushed up and literally picked her up - physically picked her up - and began to walk away with her.

Everyone rushed to save her. The man said he only wanted to hug her, he loved her. He just...loved her.




She didn't even know him. He had seen her sing, once, somewhere.




In his head, it was love.


SB

Hey Schoolbus--

And Stretch, I sincerely apologize for hijacking--

Schoolbus, you say your DD is a musician who goes on the road a lot. You said something earlier about her "rules of the road."

My (F?)WW is a semi-famous musician, who goes on the road, has groupies and stalkers, and has to fight men off left and right. While she didn't cheat with a fan, she cheated with a fellow musician who easily falls into the "fan" category... but I'd love to get your input on a few Q's I have, and hear about the "rules of the road" she has. My WW has admittedly terrible boundaries and needs help making them stronger.

Would you be willing to exchange e-mails? I'll throw mine out here, and remove it via edit after:

XXXXXXX@XXXXXX

Forgive me if it's too forward, I've just never run into *anyone* with enough knowledge of my situation to have sound advice.

Now back to your regularly scheduled program: Stretch!

No prob stuckwaiting. Schoolbus, please get in contact with StuckWaiting and help him out.

Exposure date is planned for Monday 2/7.

I uncovered a lot of emails between her and her freinds. This guy kissed her a couple times and clearly gave her a deep crush. But never took initiative to call her back, email her. She harrassed him for months and her heart was broken. I've got very open conversation between her and her friends. Including a year of repairing her heart. I am most scared that her feelings are more heavily geared towards the sadness and the rejection. And not truly feelings of remorse and guilt. But... we have to expose this and move on.

My therapist and I talked at length. he encourages me to have a plan for Monday. We will be sitting with our marriage counselor when I tell her its time to tell the truth. Also, I will schedule her an appointment with her therapist later that day and drop her off.

My therapist has agreed to help me prepare this weekend via email and on the phone. (generous of him)

I really need a lot of advice from my Survivors Group this weekend. Thanks friends

stuck - ck email

Thanks SB!

Stretch--as long as WW is in the fog, it will be hard for her to feel remorse. I've heard posters say their WS sometimes doesn't show true remorse for many months... or not at all (I doubt there can be a true R without genuine remorse). While she's in the fog, her Taker is leading, so the negative feelings she has stem from her selfish desires, and not remorse at hurting you.

You gotta have a little faith that this will change with enough plan A-ing. 2+ months from D-Day I'm starting to see slivers of that from my WW.

Before exposure/confront, make sure your evidence is secure. Have multiple copies, both electronic and printed, hidden away in secure locations.

Who are your exposure targets?

I am just curious if the keylogger you used was the desktop shark one??

Keep up the good work!

Just wanted to say good luck with the exposing, don't blink get it all done fast.

When she throws a fit, which she will stick to the plan.

Just remember when she's blowing a gasket...

"Blah blah blah..how dare you tell our friends, minister, garbageman, omw about the affair! I swear I'll leave you! Arrrrgh you make me so mad!" (wayward wife)

"But honey this will save our marriage. You are feeling a bit moody. Would you like a slice of chocolate fudge cake?" (stretch)

I poured myself out to my big sister. She is now my confidant on my side.
My therapist helped me write my script. Exposure will happen inside our marriage therapist's office. Also, she can have an appointment with her personal therapist right after to process. I will wait outside or come in if I am invited.
Someone said, remorse and guilt may not come right away. Thanks for warning me.
My big gut fear is that she is so drawn to this man, it still hurts to think about him and say goodbye. I suppose she could choose separation to go date him (if he would even want to) and then probably find out, he has annoying habits too, he lets her down sometimes, they get into arguments too.... the infatuation only lasts for so long.
Monday will be a good day to take a Xanax before the exposure.

Don't expose to your wife. Expose to people other than her enablers that can help you. Your wife is aware of what happened why tell her? Thats just confronting and will get you no where.

Reynolds is right. She already knows what she has done. She just pretends to ignore what's right and ignore her conscience.

Expose to those who aren't privy to this information!

I told my big sister and now I will tell our marriage therapist togethr in the same room.

That's three people that did not know: me, our shared counselor and her sister-in-law.

I guess you are suggesting I should tell her mom and dad. Not going to do that.

I have considered sending an email to the three ministers she and her two girlfriends are very close to. We are all connected. One friend's minister is the one who raised these girls through youth group and performed our marriages. One is the other girlfriends minister who baptised one of our children. That girlfriend is very active in the church where the three of them grew up. And then there is our own minister where my wife is active in youth activities.

I believe ministers will minimize damage, be confidential, and really, really help them with their process and remorse and shame.

You have an amazing plan -Plan stretch, pity it is not aligned to the MB plan , selective exposure, unwillingness to save your marriage by following a processes developed over decade and proven to gve you the best chance to save your marriage.

Exposure to to a far wider audience and include family and friends of both affair persons .

Expose to any and everyone!!!!

Doing it your way will ultimately and utterly fail!

See with full exposure, it might be enough pressure and common sense thrust upon WW to break thru the fog. Your way - dribs drabs and gets you nowhere!

There might still be that one person in your wife's life that means something to her that will say that one thing to snap her out of it.

Ugh.

Exposure: you have to tell EVERYONE, all at once, without your wife knowing you are planning to. It is not to be vengeful or cruel. You simply tell them what your wife has done, that you want to save your marriage, and that you want their support. Ask them to speak to her and let her know they know what's happened and let her know they think it's wrong.

I need to talk one on one with my personal therapist one-on-one on Tuesday about this. I am trying to imagine telling her mom and dad.
Also, I want us to purchase the full Harley MB course to follow the plan.
I have not ruled out telling her mom and dad. I am going to explain to her and the offending co conspirators that I am being strongly urged by people who know to tell everyone including their parents.

(side note: one of her girlfriends... if I told her husband I would seriously worry about her safety with that hot head.)

NO! DO NOT TELL HER!

That will give her a chance to spin the story and give her time to paint you as a jealous, crazy psycho who is trying to hurt her somehow.

DO NOT TELL THEM.

Are you not listening do you tell a murderer that you are thinking of calling the police, so why on earth would you pre warn her. All that will do is prepare her so she can tell them lies about you and guess what , your exposure will then fail and the affair will continue on her terms even worse she moves on with the OM and you are left sucking your thumb.

The exposure is to the OM's family and friends as well, this has to be effective to ensure your wife is not worth his attention.

You have to tell everyone for this to work. Mom and DAD are not negotiable. My wife hasn't talked to her dad in six weeks out of shame. You think that didn't have an impact?

TELL THEM

Don't tell her about exposure! Don't discuss it beforehand! You do it without her knowledge. That's one reason why you must do it all at one time. Make sure you make an exposure target list. Do NOT dribble expose.

This is the only way it works.

OM is irrelevant.

If you are new to this thread... she was smitten with a band member. He did not really reciprocate. Didn't call her back, text, set up any dates she tried. She had to go see him at the bar where he was playing. I am dealing with her feeling rejected probably (my fear) more than feeling remorse or guilt.

OM is a divorced, single, band member who never did anything except act really nice to a frustrated married, unavailable groupie. (There could have been more -- he acted so nice that she felt true feelings between them... and maybe there were. Maybe he did want to pursue her more but felt morally wrong for leading on a married woman.)

Anyway, can't figure out how to shame him.

The EA appears to be over. He hung on her heart all last year and she grieved losing the fantasy of him. But not losing her family!

OK.OK. I could be naive. There could be more. I won't show what I know so she can spin a tale. I will let her think I know everything in order to get her to confess, (even if there was a PA two weeks ago) and I will keep up the snooping while we go through Harley's plan.

Her Mom and Dad are indeed non negotiable. I understand that. She needs to face them with this. Her brother and sister too need to face mom and dad too.

In her parents family there are dozens of divorces. Everyone seems to have two or three plus marriages. There is almost no model in her parents generation of a lifelong partnership. As much as they will fight for this marriage too (her parents are divorced but they do love me and think I am pretty great) divorce is so easy and routine to all of them.

I drafted a letter to the three ministers.
I drafted a letter to WW mom and dad. (Sorry vets. Thats gonna wait until Tue/Wed)

Rolling around in my head is a message to OM (who might say to himself... geez she was a long time ago... so moved past her.)

Exposure tomorrow and I think I am gonna puke.

Stretch - breathe my friend - breathe.

I think you're fixated on whats the worst that can happen.

What is the best that can happen?

Powerbane - I woke up in Sept 2010 and realized what an idiot I was just as your signature says. But this secret romance is holding us back. I yearn and ache to be more for her and for her to be more for me. This bad, bad affair must be over -- in her mind as well. She cannot give me 100% until this OM is gone from her mind, and everything that enabled it is gone too.

I am filled with remorse about my actions as a husband. But was always still a good man. Never deserved this!

Exposure in 3 hours... I gotta keep breathing.
Anticipation, fear, relief...
Most of you think I am doing this all wrong. I won't tell her parents today or the ministers. Sorry vets. But I am preparing those letters and talking to my counselor tomorrow about it.

Hang in there Stretch123,

Stretch, I used to be you. It will be alright. Even if this doesn't work its still miles and miles ahead of doing nothing.

Every BH goes through this decision. The ones that make it through and keep their marriages are the ones who fight.

Stretch--breathe deeply, try not to become overwhelmed. Yes, this is hard. No, you did not deserve this. But you will make it through.

Try to remember your wife is NOT in her right mind at this time. You are not "being mean" by exposing her... despite WHATEVER she will say! When she hears that you have told her parents and those closest to her, she WILL be mad. Mine was livid. Mine said she could never forgive me. These are projections, though--the exposure is not what hurts her, what hurts her is knowing she finally has to face the consequences of her actions and the knowledge that she has been very, very awful. Let these words roll off your back. Cry later, when you are alone. She needs to see you as a strong man, worthy of respect, who is doing what you KNOW is best for your marriage.

But you know what? You are fighting for your marriage. You are fighting for your family.

My wife has come back to me. I do not think there is any way in heaven or hell she would have come back to me, if I did not brutally expose to her parents, her sister, my family, our friends.

I'm sure my actions still sting her. But if you love your wife, and if you want your marriage to work, do not consider these acts of exposure as an affront to your wife... instead, imagine that you are picking your bruised and beaten body off the ground, and stabbing a dagger into the heart of a beast that is afflicting your wayward wife. She will struggle to kill it on her own... she doesn't even know it's afflicting her, honestly. You, her husband, needs to slay the beast for her.

Maybe it sounds silly, but it's the truth.

Stucks right, except if you have the experience I have, you won't want to cry, you'll want to throw a fist in the air.

Exposing felt GOOD.

Oh God. Its done. Exposure

I just exposed today too, stretch. She is furious, humiliated. She says she doesnt know what I'm capable of. Of course, that's because she had me figured for a doormat. Keep working it. bra

Definitely dealing with anger.

"I feel ambushed. You had this all planned. You wrote a script. You arranged for the kids to be away. You planned to do it in our therapy appointment. You set up and took me to an appointment with my personal therapist right after. You wrote our family and friends. I can't believe you read all my emails. You have this 'Survivors Group'. Where the hell was my survivors group when you neglected me all those years?!"

She is mad about all that. I think I did a pretty good job. Especially arranging for her to have space. Arranging for her to have an appointment with her personal therapist this afternoon!!! I mean. C'mon! She really needed that!

No perspective right now. Remember that. They were ANGRY at us when they started the affair. Its probably the most common, natural comfortable emotion in their toolbag. Being angry at hubby. So with an emotional shock today -- that's the place they go. I am just rolling with it. Not fighting back.

I know she is mad about how I found out. I know she is mad about what I did today. But there is no perfect way to learn about your spouses betrayal and no perfect way to expose. Be mad at me for who I was two years ago. Be mad at me for what I do tomorrow. Today.... I have no regrets.

In the hours, days and weeks to come, I want you to remember this. Did exposure get as far and wide as possible? If it did, great, if not, you need to do that ASAP. As you see, your WW is angry, why make her angry about it all over again? Let her get over it all at once.

Good job, stretch. Did you hit everyone?

So as it turns out... her mom already knew. There is no one close to us who does not know now. Except her daddy. And she is going to go and tell him tomorrow. He will not be pleased with his three children.

Wife ran through a gamut of emotions today. Finally gave me an apology and she said, "I know that apology is not good enough. I have to work on it."

Also, was forthcoming with details. Did not catch one single lie. And she came forward and gave me several pieces of detail that I did not know. Because she isn't totally sure what I found out and didn't. I think she wants to be 100pct.

Still, getting the anger from her is something you all expected me to face and prepared me to face. But I hate it. Why am I guilty? Why angry at ME??? Yup... part of the process. I am glad this group exists.

I still think that you should talk to his dad before she does. Otherwise she will give her twisted version of situation mainly focused on YOUR mistakes.


She still thinks that her affair was somehow justifiable and she will present this opinion to her dad also.

To clarify. Dad is coming over here. So we will both be present.
There is hardly anyone to expose to that doesn't know. Turns out just about all her family and friends knew except me. Very protective. I am glad that Dad will be "in the loop" now along with Mom, brother and sister who already knew. (My God!)

Right now, she is still angry with me. Punishing me. (WTH!) But you all told me that would happen.

She is mad that any of them should feel shame and guilt. Bunch of babies. Oh it makes me so angry but I am maintaining composure. I am angry here on this forum, and with my therapist and with my sisters.

Her apology isn't that good. And she admits it. She asked, "what else do you need to heal?" This morning I said, "I need some remorse, some guilt, some shame... I understand you are angry at me. I was told to expect that. But I was also told underneath it you want me to be strong for you. To fight for you / for our family."

I am struggling to understand her family and friends. Enabling. Love you no matter what. You can do anything and we support you. No judgment. No compass. I am confused by them.

Stretch just let exposure do it's job, you want her to be mad, if having an affair was okay she wouldn't be mad would she. Even she thinks it's wrong, and now having to be accountable for her decisions makes her self reflect and she is angry with herself as well, you didn't do this, you are just trying to protect your family.
Stretch her family loves her, they might not agree with her, but feel obiligated to stand by her, when exposure happened for my husband, not one person on his side contacted me, we have been together for 27 years, loyality is a strong bond, that hurt a lot......but don't let it bother you, they will respect you for being the strong one and the one fighting for what is right, even if they don't say it or show it.
you love your wife and family and anything that comes your way is worth it,
keep your eye on the bigger picture a life with a woman you love and marriage you both will cherish.

Jessi - that helped tremendously. Her family and friends probably have a load of respect and love for me.

This morning, she used the words, "Remorse, guilt" as well as "sad, angry, hurt"

She was very open with the details. Nothing I could verify was covered up. Things I did not know about were volunteered.

Guys, you know what really hurts? Hearing about how ENs were being met by this man. They didn't even have a PA (even though she begged and wanted it) he rejected her.
But it hurts to hear how much she loved talking to him. The obsessive, infatuation in-love state was there. The oooh ahhh googly eyes at a guitar performer and the alcohol too.
But she just loved talking with him. The way he listened.

Any advice? Probably almost time to move my thread to Recovery group, eh?

How much does it hurt to feel partly to blame? How much does it hurt to open your eyes and see the EN's you were not providing? How much does it hurt to see another man so easily stepping in and making her happy?

By the way. This is probably pretty big. But she said, "I am feeling this tremedous release of longing. My thoughts about "him" are suddenly evaporating. They were angonizingly slowly disappearing over the last year. So painfully slow to grieve losing OM. But today, they are rushing away."

Is that good? Is that BS? I think its true.

It hurts a lot. This kind of self-reflection is not easy, especially when you're already faced with the pain of betrayal. You want to wallow in your own hurt and start to heal from that, but now you're being forced to look at your own shortcomings on top of it??! Brutal. It really is.
BUT keep in mind it's also 100% her decision to have had this affair. People's needs go unmet all the time--for weeks, months, years, and most of them don't have affairs. You can be blamed for not meeting her needs, like the rest of us failed to do (otherwise we probably wouldn't be in this forum!) but you absolutely CANNOT be blamed for ONE SHRED of her actions. She is completely responsible for this affair.

Still...it hurts. I'm not over it yet. I don't know how long it takes to get over it. For me, when I start thinking about the painful details, I stop, take a deep breath, and remember... I am human. I did my best. I did not deserve this.


I don't think it's entirely BS. Affairs thrive in the shadows. Exposure is so effective because it shatters the fantasy world the WS is living in. My WS's feelings subsided really quickly once reality set in.

Keep in mind, there WILL be relapses in her feelings--withdrawal--and it won't always be this easy for her. She might even say "I can't do this I'm not in love with you I'm in love with such-and-such a person!!" in the next day or two. It's a rollercoaster, and you just have to remember she's in the fog and doesn't even know how to sort out her own feelings. But her saying what she did, is a very good sign.

Hang in there. You're still on the rollercoaster ride, but you're gonna make it through.

Wow.

Stuck - you have earned some of your reward in heaven for that post. Thanks brother!

I swear to God I will pay it back to some other poor, hurting husband in the future!

Just to plant a seed for later, take cues from this on what you need to be doing in the future for her. Sounds like admiration, conversation, affection are all her top needs. You need to be thinking about this down the line in recovery.

We stood in the garage and told Daddy together. He was pretty busted up. So was I.
This should help have an effect on FWW. Break through the fog now that her Dad knows.
(Her brother and sister knew all along. Her Mom knew a year ago) So exposing to people close to her was hard. They all knew except me. Quite a support group.

But I am glad we told Dad together and we did it this way. This helps affair proof the marriage. Dad knows. He will talk to her and the other two about this and that matters.

I also know my part. I did not meet ENs. I said I wasn't always as best as I could have been for your litle girl sir. I am sad she went outside the marriage. I am hurt and betrayed. Please hold us accountable. We need your help too.

He was impressed we were on the right path.

But she admitted to feeling ashamed she had less remorse and guilt. She didn't cry as hard as her Dad and me.
Using the words remorse and guilt. But in a fog and can't feel it right now. I need to wait. Right?
It does not help that her support network's goal is to make her feel better ("you didn't do something all that bad.... just an EA.") Ummm. She won't heal my heart with their enabling. I think they are in a fog too. Because they were complicit and have to face some guilt too.

But let's avoid adjectives. How bad was the EA?
"Not that bad." "Really bad." "Fall on a big sword." "Fall on a little sword." Who cares? No adjectives.
Let's just use facts. She cheated. She kissed another man. She lied to sneak away and see him. She pursued him. She asked him to have an affiar. She wanted to start an affair. She wanted him to "come home with her / sleep with her / call her / date her / meet with her. She did all this outside of her marriage , lying to her husband. But telling her two friends and her siblings. She broke it off Nov 09. Snuck away to see him one time in Aug 10. She says she was sad because he rejected her and broke her heart.

No adjectives there. Just information. Is that "not all that bad" "really bad" .... Who cares? It is what it is. Just waiting for the fog to clear and the remorse and guilt to set in.

Tell me. When does the fog clear? When do you get deep remorse? I have heavy, heavy deep remorse for not filling her important EN's for many years. Filled with guilt and regret.

I think that listening her stories about OM is something that should be avoided at all cost. It has nothing to do with learning to meet her ENs. It can be done totally without "this was how OM met my needs" component. Praising OM in your presence is disrespectful and it will damage your further recovery by depleting your love bank. And it is some sick form of contact with OM for your WW.

IF there is total NC then fog can clear in months. You will get the remorse after fog is cleared, there is nothing you can do about it right now.

In addition, please stop accusing yourself that she had an affair. I can assure you that I had the same mindset initially. But lack of meeting ENs has nothing to do with the affair, it was her poor boundaries that helped her to have the affair. There was other choices than have an affair, thus the affair is 100% her choice and responsibility. The faster you recognize that the faster you can restore your self-confidence and by that start a real recovery.

No, I don't think you should move this thread to Recovery. Too early. Be very cautious.

Stuck,

Recovery is only evidenced by time that has gone by and having actions reveal intentions. This will not happen overnight. Like a drug addict, she will have flashbacks that remind her of the A. It will cause huge mood swings.

You have a rollercoaster ride as well: As the healing begins, you will be happy one moment and in tears the next. One moment, you will want to cuddle with her, and the next you will wonder if it is all worth it.

These emotions are very strong and make you feel like a leaf blowing in the wind. You must focus on the long term goal of getting back to a loving, safe relationship. You can get there by not acting on the crazy emotions that will surface every day.

Eventually over time, the strong feeling of emotions associated with all of this will lessen, and your head will prevail over your heart. You have altered your course, and it has the potential to be the result you were after. Proceed with both eyes wide open.

Please help me with more words of wisdom about how its not my fault and they cannot be angry with me.

She gets to sit and have coffee with girlfriends on Saturday. I said I honestly have trust issues. (She misunderstood... as if they would go chase men at lunch.) No, I said, I have to get over their betrayal and lies too. I am uncomfortable with you and the girlfriends talking about what happened and spinning interpretations.

Right now, there is a thread of thought in their conversations about how: So much of the A is my fault. And because it was EA its not that big of a deal. This is really dangerous stuff.

SOme quotes:
"We are proud of your husband for recognizing 14 years of marriage led to this."
"You didn't do anything all that bad."

Neither of these help us to heal.

I want to send her with a note to her friends. In essence, all efforts focused against being angry at me, helping WW feel better about herself and what she did are not helping us heal. I would like them to help us by helping her discover and learn how to love me back, and figure out what we need to heal. We all have healing as the goal right? So efforts to minimize, make her feel better about the A, get angry with me... they don't help. They don't affiar proof.

Now, I believe that under Plan A -- she should eliminate all enabling activities, such as deep association with girlfriends that were enabling. Well, that won't happen. She will continue to be close to her brother, sister and grilfriends. And they should feel shame and some culpability. But that is a debate right now (Only 3 days since exposure. We can't sovle it all at once) But there will never be total removal from her support group.

If her friends are not a support group for your marriage, they are not a support group, period. If they are swaying your WW away from healing and strengthening your M they are misguided at best and need to be removed from your circle of friends.

I doubt that writing to them and chastizing them because they don't agree with your marital philosophy will do much more than alienate them and make them even less likely to come down in favor of your M.

Like you said, you're pretty early into recovery. (You are in recovery, correct? Not Plan A.) Don't try to rebuild the entire dam all at once. Yes, the 'friends' are not friends of your M and will need to go. But don't slash and burn your way through recovery.

In my sitch there was a male friend of ours who knew about H's A. He didn't encourage it, but he didn't discourage it, either. That's all it took for me, that he didn't discourage it. That male friend is no longer in our circle. He was not a friend to our marriage. No, I didn't chop him off the Friends List on d-day, but it did happen shortly after recovery began.

Thank you. I need patience.

We can't slash and burn our way through recovery. Thank you.
They are also in the fog is my mantra. They also have guilt about their affairs is my suspicion. In a way, my wife has been making a lot of new friends this past year. She might subconciously be doing that. Its healthier certainly.

My sister and brother in law are mad as hell. We've know these close friends for 18 years. And they want to kill them. The point about "did not discourage" is right on. That being said, from the email snooping I have hard evidence that one of the friends definitley "encouraged". Its really not debatable. Black & White evidence. But its a debate that does not need to be had right now. With time.

These women are godparents to our children. They are like aunts. Like family. Just as I need recovery with my wife and healing, they are family and need recovery and healing with them too. Remorse will come when the fog lifts.

I am going Sunday morning to sit and have breakfast with my two sisters who have much clearer heads. Big step for me.

Stretch,

As far as dealing with your wife's friends, you cannot control or influence what they think or believe by sending them notes. They will simply see this as your attempt to control your wife by controlling them - which, in a roundabout way, is what is happening.

It would never work, anyway.

What has to happen is that your wife


needs to control

herself.

Until your WW grasps the full understanding of how a marriage works, how her "little" affair actually was not so "little", and how her way of thinking is deeply damaging the relationship now and into the future, nothing you say or do with regard to her friends will impact anything. They are "on her side", because they do not understand or grasp how a marriage works EITHER.

You control only one person - that is YOU. Your work is to work on yourself. Your wife's understanding of how her affair impacted the relationship will come

as you change your relationship with her
as you work towards your understanding of how the marriage system works
as you improve your ability to set and enforce and improve marital boundaries
as you improve meeting her emotional needs
as you improve her understanding of her own needs AND YOURS
as the two of you start using the O&H system
and
as the two of you begin using POJA as a working system together in the marriage.


Once the marriage gets into gear with a better foundation, your wife will begin to grasp what she did - and what she HAS and nearly lost.


The fog has been in place for a long time - her last contact was actually still just last August, so that fantasy flame was active then, and in her head still fanned only recently.

Exposure makes people uncomfortable, angry, and they will defend themselves. That's what her friends are doing. They don't "get it", and they won't - until your WIFE stands up for you. It will only be when your WIFE returns (and NOT the WW you have right now) and says to her friends that they were ALL wrong, herself included, and reclaims that history of the marriage that she has so conveniently rewritten for the time being (all to justify her ridiculous behavior).

Follow the MB plan. Your WIFE will return......sooner or later.....and she will ultimately defend you. Don't worry about those other people. Some will end up being friends to the marriage, others will not. Let them sort themselves out.

SB

Last contact turns out to be Christmas. She told me tonight she continued to write him silly emails and he would not write back. But even after my awakening Sep 1 and hard work on the marriage started, she has not let go of him. She told me she wrote him an email on Christmas Eve.

Tonight, I listened for a long, long time trying to understand how we got to the terrible place. She said she has so many deep scars from the marriage. I hurt her and hurt her for so many years. She gets through it by learning from her counselor and friends that I was just clueless. Bad training. No maliciousness. I never tried to hurt her. But my words, responses, actions.... always ended up hurting her. She hated talking to me. Couldn't stand me. So (I think we agree) that she is responsible for the affiar, I must own the culpability for where she was in so much pain when the affair started. And how even this month and last month I still revery to bad behaviors that hurt for so long.

The fog is deep. She thinks of him and feels happy. She contacted him in Dec and on a very bad day about a week and a half ago when she admits "hubby was being a perfect superman all day with the family" she sat down to write OM an email again.

Yes, I have emotional inventory to take. She was in deep pain in the marriage. I contend that I was clueless. But she did try to tell me over and over, year after year. I was a blockhead. But she gets into a place where no good can be seen. Some of the marriage history is conveniently rewritten. Some of her friends hear the monstrification of me. I am not the only reason she was depressed and unhappy. Could I be?

But I am deeply, deeply remorseful for every bad thing I have ever done. I can't think of any real grudges I hold for things bad that she has done. Maybe Me, the monster, didn't care to notice?

Stretch,

My former WW said the exact same thing. Exactly. I accept that I was not appreciative of her. I will admit that. But now, 4 months after NC, she wholeheartedly admits that she made a grave error and she is extremely remorseful. I did not cause the A. She did.

We both are in a good place now, and I look back and wonder if this was all a bad dream. Just keep working on your relationship with your W, and you will likely find that she will be the biggest defender of your M. It's really hard to fathom the 180 my wife did, after being an alien who had no common sense just a few months ago.

Stretch,

Just a quick comment...or, observation. You made mistakes. Check. Your WW made mistakes. Check. What marriage can claim these 2 facts to not be true? Um, none. What makes a man (in this case) is what you, and only you do about them. YOU are manning up, my friend. Take pride in that. Not dorrmatting up ("I was soo bad.."), but taking control of the situation, correcting what you are able to, and laying the foundation for your WW to do the same. And, ultimately to do what you both will do to recover. Not, "can". Will.

That's all you can do now (follow the PLAN which is not small task), so let's take "bad" out of the vocabulary when reviewing your history. Mistakes? Sure. Lots, tons, cargo planes full? Maybe (oh, c'mon). But, NOT an affair. That is where "bad" can be applied.

I don't suggest that you do this, but I just read your first post, and that was only 1/30. You were all over the place (understandably!!) Think about that. You read, you heard, you did, and now your posts are miles away from that first one. YOU are doing something and have a plan, and it's working toward progress. Just progress...and, however crappy you feel now, and though you have a very rough road ahead, you're 100% more composed than you were just a couple weeks ago.

For that, you have my admiration (like so many others). You are doing great. Hang in there. The folks here are incredible, aren't they?

You are not a bad husband, Stretch, but rather a husband that made some mistakes along the way that you see now and are willing to change for you so that you and others (kids) will gain benefit from, right? WW or not. And, I hope with a FWW one day.


Take care!

I totally agree with Surfer88.

Please, please do not fall the "I must have been REALLY REALLY bad husband and man because my W had an affair" routine. A wayward would very much like you to think so. All she says right know is colored by trying to find a justification her own bad behaviour and should not be taken as solid truth. I guess you made mistakes but I seriously doubt that these were something so major like your WWs so called friends and counselors trying to preach.

You have taken the road for improving yourself - there are not many people out there who are able to do that. Be proud.

Great advice. She does tell me she owns her actions. She says "remorse, shame, guilt."
The more I listen and create a "safe, respectful, trusting" place for her to be O&H the better it gets. She said, "Who would have thought we would be talking this much on day 4?"

SO she goes to a place where she needs to really lay on the marriage history of hurt. She withstood some emotional neglect and painful words for years. I was dumb and clueless. She hangs on because she truly believes its unintentional. There are mean and bad people in the world and I am not one of them. My words and actions can hurt unintentionally. And I understand all of that. And its very true.

My little sister also has depression and she is a great resource I did not appreciate before. She says, "She remembers past marriage stories through the lens of current depression. Its the opposite of rose colored glasses."

Your advice up above is telling me that the fog does lift. The remorse, shame and guilt get worse as I improve the marriage.

Right now the emotional fantasy is not gone. She is still having the EA in her mind. She cannot promise NC. She emailed him Christmas Eve. (he never responds) But every six weeks she gets the urge to send an email. ANd she said last night, "I cannot promise NC." That led to some pain and anger. But she meant it like, "I am a drug addict trying to reform."

NC does not exist on day 4. There is no contact today. But no agreement to NC. This hurts.

From my big sister:

That is what I meant by "are your shoulders big enough?"
Can you take the deflection and stand stalwart and know the 180 is coming?
Can you continue to work on your behavior even though, at times, it will feel futile and that you've already lost?
Do you have the patience to give her the space she needs to make the transference at her own pace?
I think you do and your sisters are here for you. It sounds like your online friends are there for you, too.
And one day, you will be the "Seasoned Survivor"

Stretch - nice question from your sister about are your shoulders big enough!

Here's something to go with that - don't worry about if your shoulders are big enough because if it's too much - the rest will slide down and fall off!! Let God handle the rest.

I'm so glad you're finding those unrecognized sources of help in your sisters. Family is great!

So about NC. Talking to a friend today. He can't believe I am not more angry and that I have no considered kicking her out.

Last night, she could not commit to NC. Well, I think we cannot even take step one in recovery if she still has one foot in the affair fantasy. I need to hear: "I am so sorry. I will never do it again. Yes, I agree, I will never send him an email again. The affair is OVER."

If the affair isn't over, then how can we proceed with all this other marriage work?

If she can't end the affair (its of the mind for crying out loud. I am asking for a committment to NC. Never email him again!!!) If she can't... perhaps its best if she move out of the house. Leave hubby and kids. Go figure it out and come back when you figured it out. I can't go on working on this alone while you have one foot in the affiar fantasy.

stretch,

Plan A, Plan A, Plan A. Read up on the carrot and the stick of Plan A, and work that plan like crazy!

WW may be under the mistaken belief that if she uses this threat of continued possible contact, she can use this as a wedge against you. It would not surprise me at all, because your changes may be something she doesn't really believe will stick. Plan A is something that she has to believe will be a permanent change in you, so no LB'ing, and you need to be on best behavior to work this Plan to get her through the withdrawal phase. If she was still doing emails just a month and a half ago, that means she is still in withdrawals.

You have only just begun recovery, so read up on what you need to do for your Plan. Be sure to meet her EN's, and not make DJ's during your talks.

When she says that she doesn't think she can do NC, you could respond "Our marriage can survive your affair once it ends. It cannot survive having three people in the marriage. You must stop contact as a condition of our marriage recovery." Then, CHANGE THE SUBJECT. Be a broken record.

Plan A, but be preparing to go to Plan B if you have to. You don't know what might happen down the line. Watch what she does - spy on her - and do not listen so much to what she is saying. Waywards are liars. Watch her actions!

I read Plan A good and long. Thank you.

Right now on the rollercoaster... she feels hopeless. She is going to stay in a hotel a couple days. Bad chest cold and one theory is that grief is sitting in the chest. She needs to recover and get healthy. But emotional stress is making it impossible.

Her despair is deep. We were doing much better before I found out about the EA. And I thought counseling was finally really getting somewhere. She was closer to me. And as it turns out, hopeful enough that she was starting to work with her therapist about a plan (maybe many months from now) but a plan to expose herself.

But today, she feels as bad as it did when the A started. My interpretation: this exposure has taken her back to despair of back two years ago, when she believed everything was hopeless and could only see the hurt and pain in 14 years of marriage. Nothing redeeming or good at all in her memory. The hard work of the past six months and my awakening are back to zero.

She says, "I worked on the M all by myself for 14 years. I read books. I talked to counselors and loved ones. I threw rocks at your head. Your six months of awakening just aren't enough."

There must be a fog after exposure that reverts her back to this --- "just give up. Its hopeless." state of mind. Its comforting. Its an easy way out. It seems justified. She can run from her actions and infidelity. She has an excuse to quit. Easier on WW to throw it in because its her fault. I am absolved -- she got her ejector seat.

We were really getting somewhere. So how about that feeling of: "I wish I hadn't found out." Its powerful isn't it. But phony. I know. Our work really was going to stall as long as she had the secret.

no expert here stretch, I exposed the same day you did. I'll let the vets give you the action items, but I do have an observation.

It has been less than a week since she was confronted with the stark realities. Dispair and conflict are good, it says to me that the real world where actions have consequences are seeping into her thought process. She can no longer disregard them.

You are not done stretch, no ejector seat. If she leaves you fight every inch of the way. Do you want this marriage or don't you?

Stick to the plan, this is fog talking...yours and hers.

Obviously her comment about "feelings" for him are dissipating quickly were false. She is still lying to you. With no commitment of NC, you simply just don't know where you stand. This guy apparently doesn't even want to know her. She needs time alone. I don't think she will chuck it all in. But her friends will always be there to enable her feeling of "it wasn't that bad". And "You tried for 14 years with you husband and he never got it". I want you to think of one thing. I think she is just as guilty for the 14 years. Not in how she treated you. But how she talked to her friends and brothers and sisters about you. It is now accepted by her that they tear you down to her. She sincerely needs to take the step with them, by telling them "He is my husband and he may not be perfect but I don't want to hear another negative thing about him coming out of your pie holes". If she will not defend you and your marriage. She will always be rolling around in the mud with them over your past. HER/YOUR COUNSELORS NEED TO GET THIS THROUGH TO HER IF SHE WANTS TO SAVE HER MARRIAGE AND MOVE FORWARD. Otherwise she and you will be miserable for the rest of your lives together. YOU HAVE TO HAVE FRIENDS OF THE MARRIAGE. We all have a stake in each others marriages.

Stickin to the plan. This morning I came into the bedroom (I have not been able to sleep in bed with her every night. Sometimes sleep won't come lying there. Sometimes I sleep on the floor or the couch.) But anyway, this morning I came in and she reached out for a hug. We deeply enjoyed holding each other for half an hour. Lovely sweet talk about meeting needs. IT feels so good. I really, really want this marriage. She makes me melt.

But she said, "I don't want to go to a hotel. I really need to get over my bronchitis. I need to know that when I lie down or sit down this afternoon, everyone will be there for themselves. You will help the kids. I can't mommy everyone when I am sick."

So she will stay home. She is out at a meeting this AM, then lunch with her friends and brother (co-conspirators. I am not able to trust their advice right now. But read back a few posts. Gotta let that be. They'll sort it out. btw - she has reached out for new friends! Subconciously needed fresher POV's)

But when she gets back she wants to hold her kids and be allowed to rest and get over bronchitis. Plan A. Plan A.

Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.
Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.
Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Exactly, you got the carrot, but where is the stick portion?

Stick:

Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.
About a dozen close people now know)

Not apologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.
I will not / did not apologize for my plan of action on exposure day.)

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.
Yes! I have been saying. "I hurt." "That hurts." "That's painful." "This is too painful. I have to walk away now." This works! She hates the pain she caused on me.)

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.
(I WILL NOT. This one is hard. Because she and her peeps do seem to want to go to the place where we examine how bad she felt before the affair / reasons why she did it. (my faults of course) But I stand firm. The affair itself was HER CHOICE. I have a lot to examine about myself and who I was to her.(Carrot) But SHE CHOSE THE AFFAIR ON HER OWN. Her bad husband did not force her to do it.)

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.
(Hard one. I don't know what her consequences are right now. Watching me suffer? Guilt for my pain? Her family and peeps are sooooo supportive it bothers me. Fear of losing children? Forced to move out? (I am not leaving the house. Kids would live here with me if it came to that. She made the choice, she would be the one to move out.)

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financial security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.
(Yes. I must remind: we are protecting the children)

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.
(Help me: Do I say things to her like: "For the good of the family, I want to slay this beast.")

Hurts all over. I was hyperventillating today.

Hang in there stretch! I exposed about 5 days ago to about 60 people - I kind of carpet bombed the OMs side, co-workers and other miscellaneous email addresses I found in the emails OM forwarded to my WW. That'll teach him not to forward work emails directly any more, I suppose.

I'm in the same place you are, probably. It's tough, I'm tired and today, for the first time, I entertained the notion of divorce and what it would mean. I quickly snapped back from it, but I chalk it up to fatigue and being battle weary.

We are beat.
I am really focused on Plan A and owning my actions. I was not good to her. She was in a horrible place. Also, I have no intention of holding onto this against her forever. I know we can heal.

Good morning. Difficult food for thought...
There is a school of reasoning out there in some places that says: "Do not expose yourself just to ease your own guilt. You will damage your partner and it won't make it better."

In other words, if my wife had another affair... if I don't have suspicion and am not close to clues... don't tell me.

This is dangerous, sloppy thinking though. Let me rephrase this to show you why:

"I'm not going to be honest with my life partner. I will seek my gratification away from the marriage I promised to honor. What he doesn't know won't hurt him. I'll just have to hope that no one else ever tells him. I guess that means I'm not in control of my life, but that's okay."

Thank you.
This advice comes from Mira K's book. Sorry to discuss it here.

Also, pretty sure her therapist tells her or has told her, "Don't expose yourself just for your guilt. You will hurt him."

I told her I went to a strip club once and got aroused to the point of releasing in my pants. Her response: "I didn't want to know that."

I have deep suspicion there is another affair somewhere presently or in the past...

I don't mind seeing that reference here because it's so obviously flawed logic that it can't withstand scrutiny.

Don't go to any more strip clubs, stretch, you naughty boy.

Well, stretch, here is Dr Harley's advice. You should read the two sources and decide for yourself which you prefer. However, be aware that you cannot pick the parts of Marriage Builders that appeal to you or that you find easy, reject other parts where you can find contradictory and yet comforting advice from "experts' with unproven track records (like your wife's therapist), and then expect to end up with the kind of successful marriage that many people here have.

Should an affair be revealed?

I have been letting you in on some clues to infidelity when a spouse is unwilling to be truthful. But there are a few, of course, who are honest enough to tell their spouses about an affair without being confronted. Guilt sometimes sets in right after the first sexual encounter, and it continues to build as one lie is added to another. Depression follows guilt and it's not unusual for a wayward spouse to even consider suicide as a way to escape the nightmare he or she has created. As an act of desperation, honesty is sometimes seized as a last resort, often in an effort to relieve the feelings of guilt.

From my perspective, honesty is part of the solution to infidelity, and so I'll take honesty for whatever reason, even if it's to relieve a feeling of guilt and depression. The revelation of an affair is very hard on an unsuspecting spouse, of course, but at the same time, it's the first step toward marital reconciliation.

Most unfaithful spouses know that their affair is one of the most heartless acts they could ever inflict on their spouse. So one of their reasons to be dishonest is to protect their spouse from emotional pain. "Why add insult to injury," they reason. "What I did was wrong, but why put my spouse through needless pain by revealing this thoughtless act?" As is the case with bank robbers and murderers, unfaithful spouses don't think they will ever be discovered, and so they don't expect their unfaithfulness to hurt their spouse.

But I am one of the very few that advocate the revelation of affairs at all costs, even when the wayward spouse has no feelings of guilt or depression to overcome. I believe that honesty is so essential to the success of marriage, that hiding past infidelity makes a marriage dishonest, preventing emotional closeness and intimacy.

It isn't honesty that causes the pain, it's the affair. Honesty is simply revealing truth to the victim. Those who advocate dishonesty regarding infidelity assume that the truth will cause such irreparable harm, that it's in the best interest of a victimized spouse to go through life with the illusion of fidelity.

It's patronizing to think that a spouse cannot bear to hear the truth. Anyone who assumes that their spouse cannot handle truth is being incredibly disrespectful, manipulative and in the final analysis, dangerous. How little you must think of your spouse when you try to protect him or her from the truth.

It's not only patronizing, but it's also false to assume that your spouse cannot bear to hear the truth. Illusions do not make us happy, they cause us to wander through life, bumping into barriers that are invisible to us because of the illusion that is created. Truth, on the other hand, reveals those barriers, and sheds light on them so that we can see well enough to overcome them. The unsuspecting spouse of an unfaithful husband or wife wonders why their marriage is not more fulfilling and more intimate. Knowledge of an affair would make it clear why all efforts have failed.

After revealing an affair, your spouse will no longer trust you. But lack of trust does not ruin a marriage, it's the lack of care and protection that ruins marriages. Your spouse should not trust you, and the sooner your spouse realizes it, the better.

The Policy of Radical Honesty is one of two rules you must follow to protect your spouse from your self-centered behavior, which includes affairs. The other rule is the Policy of Joint Agreement (never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse). If you were to be completely honest with you spouse, and you were to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement, an affair would be impossible, unless for some reason your spouse wanted you to have one.

If you knew that your affair would be discovered -- that right after having sex with your co-worker, your spouse were to find out about it -- you would probably not go through with it. And if you were honest enough with your spouse so that YOU would be the one to tell him or her what you did, your honesty would be a huge reason to avoid any affair.

How the victimized spouse should respond to the revelation of an affair is a subject of a later column. I do not have the space to treat it here. But a spouse is twice victimized when he or she is lied to about an affair. Truth is far easier to handle than lies.

Some affairs, those like the husbands of R.J. and M.S., are discovered by their spouses. But as R.J. and M.S. have seen, knowing about an affair is only the first step toward recovery.

Full article here.

Yeah. No kidding. We need to have an agreement (POJA) in marriage.
Talking to my sisters this morning -- they could care less if their husbands use porn or go to a strip club and get aroused and over excited. They said they couldn't care less.

On the other hand, they agreed about "don't tell." One sister said to her husband, "If you had a one night stand I would rather not know."

Anyway, what my wife did was long term, emotional, of the heart, required a lot of premeditation, and she still can not let go.

I have not seen porn or a strip club since last summer

That sister may come to regret telling her husband that one day.

Hang in there stretch, you are doing fine.

Sometimes I cannot breathe. I am paranoid when she leaves the house... normal?

She gives us 6 months (maybe 2 years) for her to see a glimmer of hope. You see, I am in the position that she was ready to leave the marriage. And still is. So I need to do all the work on ME. The affair was because her EN's were not met. Also, ejector seat out of the marriage, also depression and mid-life crisis.

But she has been brutally angry with me for years and my emotional inventory tells me I have plenty to regret. (not the affair... but tons leading up to that.)

Her remorse and apology has not kicked in yet. She is in a hole. Fighting it. Does not yet grasp what she has done. My heart is exploding. She is still numb.

Meanwhile - You continue Plan A ans be meeting those EN's you've missed all these years!

You're going to be on this wild ride for a bit. Make sure you're getting as much rest and exercise as you can.

Stretch, you are damn right thats normal. You wife is following the textbook, and you need to be working the plan as hard as you can.

Just breath. You are in control as long as you stay on plan. Feels better than doing nothing doesn't it?

Stay strong

Stretch - hang in there bro! I'm in the same place as you, wrestling with the same demons. My WW shows no remorse about what she did, she's more concerned about how the exposure put people in her family 'in the middle'.

Try to stay strong!

She is reeling and needs a safe place to fall. We are talking a lot. We are making progress. It hurts that she is not more remorseful and ashamed and guilty and apologetic. Really hurts.

She told our counsellor today... "I left the marriage." I mean, she really, really checked out. Walking around like it was just too much and it was over. She just hung around for the four children. She is working on this with me. HEr head is thinking 6months? Maybe 2 years? And then stop and check...

She also says, "I am very sorry for your hurt." and "I know you want me to be more remorseful and sorry." But the fact is, she just is not. She seems numb. She has been living with this secret and processing it for so long.

Its hard not to be really angry. Sometimes, when I can barely breathe, its okay isn't it to just show the hurt and pain. Not be angry, but let her see my agony. I am calmer today. Last night I cried for about 5 hours.

Hello Stretch,

Have been looking in on your thread off and on to see what you would do.

"She is an amazing woman." Please delete that and get real - she is not at all amazing - My wife is - your ww is Not! We have been married for 42 years!

"She gives us 6 months (maybe 2 years) for her to see a glimmer of hope."

I would give a wife like that 1 Hour and 45 minuties to leave the home before I took my kids, left the house, and left her isolated and alone! You don't think that can be done, or don't think it is koshier? Well, if I was in your shoes the woman would watch me leave - with our kids!

There is one thing about saving a marriage as the vets advise here, and rightly so. It is quite another to cowtow to someone like this. I am sorry, but I have too much pride to ever do that.

There have been many many betrayed husbands on here over the last year, and most of them dont take advice, don't act proactively, just disappear, and of course they most likely lost their woman, probably lost their family, and are too ashamed to come back here!

Don't be one of those.

Tom

Tom, sorry. I cannot see your POV.
And its kinda confusing. Walk Out.... but don't be one of those men that lose their wife and family.... contradiction.

Anyway. I know her. I love her. And she is amazing. And I did not see it for years. I am sorry.

Feeling okay tonight. I think its all the crying. Cried hard all evening last night and went to sleep okay. Cried a few times today. The first half hour of our marriage session and then started to feel better. Then quite a bit tonight.

I know its a rollercoaster. Just on a steady straight right now. Expect the climbs, dips, dives and turns to come and haunt me.

We are talking. A lot. Working on ground rules. We need to quit when we've gone too long. She does not want to feel like she is fighting me or that she gets exhausted or trapped in the conversation.

Anyway, for tonight, I am breathing.

Saw a really low number on the scale this monring. Silver lining... lost more than a few pounds. Pants don't fit.

Its eating me up with the suspicion that another shoe will drop. Look back at our conversation about should it be revealed or not. My W believes in the Mira K. book about not revealing just for her own guilt. Keep it quiet so I won't get hurt.
But we'll never be completely faithful that way. If she insists on this way of thinking, I am afraid I will someday break my vow. Its death to the marriage by a thousand tiny cuts.

Her #4 EN btw ... O&H

I am so suspicious right now that there is more !

Polygraph. Schedule one.

You watch yourself very carefully. You would easily spiral into your own issues.

stretch,

Sometimes the truth trickles out. In my sitch it was that way. I hated it.

You need to make her feel safe when you two talk. No more marathons. Read my rules for talking. I will find them and bump it.

SB

Perhaps when the fog clears. Things were pretty lovey around her last night and this morning and most of today. She got back from her therapist, from her mom, and had a call with her brother and she was distant and silent.

As she decides to come back to the marriage, and the fog clears and the remorse kicks in... perhaps she will understand the commitment to O&H.

Good advice to make it safe to talk. No marathons. She requested time tonight.

I was good for half the day. Then cried from 4:30 to 9:30.
She said her therapist did ask how I am doing. Her explanation:
"He is pretty busted up. Can't sleep. Can't eat. Hyperventilating. Looking for a promise she cannot give right now. Its not fair on him because he is doing the work, wants to save the marriage. The cheater is not on her knees begging. The betrayed one is."

So there is recognition.

I goota believe in the philosophy of Plan A. And that her fog will slowly clear and she will find remorse and guilt and a commitment to our marriage. This could take 6 months?

Anyone have an experience? May I take a poll? How long did it take your WS offender to make that 180?

Clearly she is still in emotional shock. This radically changes the way she was fighting for a year and a half to maintain the lies and work through this all alone.

Well, I consider myself one of the lucky ones....NC started in late October, and my FWW is 100% back in the M. About 30 days after NC, she started coming out of the fog. Of course, I pulled a 180 too, and began being the husband she wanted and needed.

I am working extremely hard on pulling my own 180.
NC is not there yet. I mean, she has not tried to email him since Christmas. But felt a huge urge to do so a couple weeks ago. (the evening of DDay). I knew something was off and woke me up and told me to go snoop the secret email address.

So she still has OM in her brain. I read a lot from Harley about how she has to get rid of that. And how to. Before we can recover.

So in your "lucky case" Establish NC and then 30 days. She still needs to remove him from her mind.

After complete NC, your W will begin to de-tox. My W would have strong emotional flashbacks when something reminded her of the OM. She would literally be in tears over these flashbacks. It's no different than the physical withdrawal from an addictive drug.

Without NC, the de-tox will never happen.

Stretch a few things. You are fogged. Take down the signature that says she is amazing. She is human and flawed just like you and me.

This will take time, you better steel yourself for the long ride. No more tears, you have a plan and if it works great.

Do the improvements on Stretch for YOU not her.

Her changes will come, but not as fast as you would like. And you will find yourself in a place where when she starts to turn you don't WANT her back. Thats normal too.

All hands on deck Stretch, this is the fight of your life and you need to get a grip or you won't last. LOOK AFTER STRETCH

If that's what she really said. Did her therapist tell you this, or was this something that came out of your wayward's mouth?

Stretch - Please don't listen to the stuff that comes out of your WW mouth right now. (Good or Bad). I know that's harder said than done, but try. I get venum every night - divorce is inevitable, I really hate you, blah, blah, blah. It's tough and some of those comments really hurt, but stand firm. She's still pissed that I won't apologize for exposing the affair - not backing down from that one either.

Andy, tell your WW that one day she will thank you for doing whatever it took to fight for your marriage. And Stretch, don't let her have the easy way out by agreeing to end the M. Fight for it as long as you are emotionally able to do so. Again, someday she will probably thank you for fighting for your R.

Hey Stretch,

I was just too hard on you (I am Not a vet here), but it seems she is just kicking your butt.

To clear up, what I meant was that I have a wife who is loyal, and more importantly in this day and age, moral. We have been through more than you could possibly realize.

The reason for the advice to walk is simply lack of remorse on her part. That would hurt me and other 'old fashioned' H's to such an extent that I would never have stayed.

Let me tell you something from my experience. True romance and sexual attraction and desire for one another just doesn't always rise up - especially after several years of marriage. It depends on the history between you two. History should create good and attractive memories, and if that history is interrupted by an inturder, that results in doubt, wonder, and resentment.

A husband and wife need to be No. 1 to each other - if that is waylaid, then the W feels like No. 2, and when she is ivolved in an affair, you are No.3 at best!

So, what do you do, especially with young kids affected by her affiar. You need to consider taking the hard line, and that is what I meant. Right now you seem to be the fallback No. 2 - like a backup QB. I don't really care about the crap about the 'fogbabble' - if you are human you simply have a tendancy to feel remourse about hurting another person! It's clear your W is not anywhere near there now. If I were you I would immediately go into Pan B.

Tom

Thanks for all the advice. I am sticking in here and fighting for my family and this marriage. Still working on Plan A. Enough vets have told me Plan A takes a long time. Its only just over a week since exposure. We are talking. We are having some very nice days. She admitted that I deposited Love Units many times this week.

But she is still angry about exposure. She is still in withdrawal. She is still numb and in emotional shock.

I have plenty of my own work to do. Just gotta focus on me. I will be a better man however this comes out. My prayer is that she sees the better man and a wave of remorse, shame, guilt and a feeling of "what the hell did I almost throw away?!?!" surfaces.

Plan B is a ways off for now.

Stretch - Hang in there. You and I got on the rollercoaster at the same time, and we're probably just getting started. It might help to sketch out what you want to do FOR yourself and what you're going to do if WW does X. Let's face it, you don't have to gameplan that many options. She leaves or she stays; if she stays, then what. If she leaves, then what.

I like to plan and be prepared, so I've tried to sketch out the most likely scenarios from both sides. It's like playing chess - move, counter move, etc. If you think through the possibiities now, while you have a relatively quiet mind, you might (and I stress might) recall it in a heated discussion. If you don't do this, you'll have to think about it during the heat of the moment. IMHO your odds of delivering your desired message will go down. This should also give you a sense of control over the situation that you currently do not have.

My WW is very 'sad' right now and she has historically been very impulsive - I'm aware of her tendencies, so I know that I need to be prepared to talk about our situation at almost any time. She'll lob zingers at random moments - I'm learning to just let them roll off me.

Hang in there, but you really need to re-think your tag line. I love my WW too - but it's my DS that deserves the best WW and I have to offer. Big Picture right now - details later!

Thanks Andy,
Glad to have someone on the same timeline. I am so emotional and she seems like nothing has changed. At the time, she admits, she subconciously wanted to hurt me. I did not deserve that. Her depression and mid life crisis did this as much as my bad husbanding. I was bad. I was innattentive. I took her for granted and she often felt put down. Ugly, ugly.

But I thought I was a good man. Better than most. No way I deserved an affair. The emails I came across show a woman out of control. Her friends were proud of her new found freedom and compliment her. All the while, smiling at me, coming over here for family getogethers, going on multi-family vacations.... Its sickening. Just sickening.

Geez Stretch and Andy, I feel like we are all part of a 40-something reality show. Stretch, I too was inattentive, and I took my wife for granted. But somehow we were still best friends and she said I was the best father in the whole world. Yet she "fell into" an A.

Being inattentive does not give your W permission to have an A!!!! And there is no such thing as a mid life crisis. Your W deliberately chose to go outside the M for fun and games. You did not cause this! If you imply one more time that you caused all of this, Andy and I both are going to come over and kick your a**!

Stretch change will come only very slowly for her. I am way ahead of you on the timeline, and believe me its grating on the nerves so strap yourself in.

You did not deserve the affair. NO ONE does. She should have left first, same with Andys wife, and mine. But they didn't. And its us good men that have to deal with it. But we will all come through it.

As for her friends, my wife has a couple of enablers too. Remember them later when they need help or you learn of an affair for them. But get yourself recovered first.

Wisertoday - ROTFLMAO - about the Stretch causing his WW affair.

Unfortunately we ARE part of a reality show, real life. I wish I could just change the channel and be done with it. I don't think I was inattentive though, I was always trying to balance work and life. I was always pushing for a date night and wanting to do things with WW and as a family. I had the life I always wanted; there were problems..but in the grand scheme of things all was good.

Listen to others who've traveled this road, like Reynolds, any change will be slow in coming. Just start preparing mentally for a marathon. It helps me to feel like I'm prepared, that's why I'm always trying to think of various angles that might get played. That's why I visited an attorney.

My wife was completely out of control, but she seems to have picked her affair partner very carefully. He was someone that didn't go to her usual haunts, so she kept him away from her circle of friends that I might interact with on a date night. Very, very shrewd. She had plausible excuses, but eventually they became a little too fantastic to believe. That's when I started to become suspicious. Now, she's stuck in a way - I believe. I'm sure she's confided in a couple of friends that weren't reached by the exposure, but she really can't say a whole lot. I'm sure it's a bit surreal for all of us.

I am no vet friend, you make it sound like I am done the road. I am just getting started. I am a couple of turns in front of you guys but lord knows if I made the right ones.

Sorry but this reminds me so much of The Lonely Island's song "Jizz in My Pants" that was on SNL..... check it out on hulu dot com on one of those "I need a laugh" days..... Don't mean to make light of things, but sometimes it's good to have a laugh when things are rough.

BTW - My college roommate, during a theatre rehearsal, was having back pain while we rehearsed for Romeo and Juliet. A girl (whom he wasn't even attracted to) had him lay down on the floor on his stomach and gave him a TOTALLY PLATONIC backrub..... but he said it felt so good that he realized *TOO LATE* that he was about to and then DID...... uh..... release in his pants!!!! He had to lay there in the hallway until she left! Oh man..... sometimes being a guy is just tough!

Don't look for tears or remorse yet. She is still in an active Wayward mindset. The feelings of guilt and shame are in there and her subconscious is working double-time to keep them buried as she watches your pain and knows, despite all her excuses, that SHE ALONE caused this.

My WXW took about 3 days before she showed ANY emotion besides anger and defensiveness, but they were LOOOOOOOONG 3 days.

My tip for you today is: cry on your own time. Keep your head high. Let her see you strong. Now, don't beat yourself up for how you felt before. That's all FINE. But TODAY, try being strong in front of her. After a while of that, THAT is what will make her crack and gush wide open with her supressed emotions (more than likely) - seeing you trying to be brave and strong and trying not to let her see you in pain (AKA "protecting her"). She will probably lose it at that point when she finally feels THAT specific feeling - that you are soldiering up and being strong to protect her from feeling bad.... at least with my ex. It took about 3 months until my WXW had a full-breakdown and apology, long after we had separated. It came when I calmly told her what my current, Post-Separation life was like, and how I was adjusting and could see that one day things would feel better (while NEVER blaming her) - basically I just removed the blame and told her the facts of how my day-to-day life had changed without putting in emotion or blame. Then SHE lost it and began spilling apologies and strange guilty sobs that I hadn't heard..... then I lost it a little myself, but pulled up my dignity, said that I was sorry, I hadn't intended to make it emotional, and that we'd talk later when I could compose myself. Still no blame. Hung up, and then got the most honest from the heart thing I ever got from her, just a simple text 5 minutes later that said "im so sorry"
It meant so much to me to finally read and believe it that I kept it on my phone for a while - didn't respond to it, but it was nice to hear.

So who knows exactly when your WW will "crack" - but don't worry that she's an emotionless android..... the longer she does a poker face, the deeper the hurt will run inside her.

Just focus on yourself for right now. Breathe, embrace the "heartbreak diet" that's making you shed those pounds (that was a bonus for me too!), and remember to stay in the moment, be still, and cry all you want when she's not around. I sure did - probably drank more water than ever in my life cause I was losing so dang much out my eyes!

Arpeggi - thanks for that post, especially the timeline you encountered. Unfortunately I feel like I'm headed in the same direction. It's going to take months before the final outcome is decided. My WW is stubborn and she doesn't cry - I think I've seen it maybe 3 times in 8 years.

I do get the sense that she's trying to work through all the conflicting emotions in her head. I believe humiliation, pride and the sense of 'what am I going to do now' are most often top of mind. She is concerned that I'll expose the affair to her new employer, but I wouldn't do that. If anything, the job will help to keep her out of trouble by giving her something constructive to do. She's asked whether the neighbors know and they don't right now - with one exception. Now, if she moves out, I'll probably need help with DS, so I'll have no choice but to tell the people we're closest with in the 'hood. I obviously hope it doesn't come to that.

I hope you're right about the poker face - I need to remember how you presented your post-separation life - just the facts and no blame or emotion.

Wow. I feel her poker face and suppression. Its hard at work.
But there is a chance we're on a faster timeline.

Yesterday, I did not cry all day. And she knows that. She knows I am being strong.

Last night, she started to cry herself.

She said, "Everyone wants to shame me. And I am not shaming myself enough. I am broken. You find other people like your on-line group to shame me. Tell you how hideous I am. How hideous my actions are. When I talked to my friends and sister today, everybody asks, 'How is he? How is your poor husband?'"

Later in bed when I said I love you, "I don't feel very worthy of that." I asked her if she wanted to rest her head in my arms and she did. I held her. Our favorite intimate embrace.

Honestly, earlier in the day, I was starting to let her go. I was thinking how I didn't want someone back who wasn't at all remorseful. And who manipulated every conversation, interaction, story and thought to make me the bad guy -- to project motivations and thoughts upon me that I do not have. "The monstrification of the husband." Someone earlier said I would have that feeling on the roller coaster too. Moments when you just don't want her back.

But last night, some remorse and guilt was creeping into her tears. And I hurt! I have been waiting for them, but boy I didn't expect to be so sad when I first saw them.

We are both broken. ANd we are both able to fix this. I hate imagining that this will not work out. It might not. Our therapist clearly pointed that out. Heck, my wife has wanted to leave me for two years. Decided to have an affair instead. But the love I felt when I saw her in pain (finally) over this.... oof. I need to work extra, extra hard on being the best man I can be. Plan A. I want this to work.

Still hanging in there. Day two without crying. She is a distant, detached mess today. I am having a great time with the kids. Made breakfast, lunch, dinner. Playing with kids. Being the best I can be. Planning a spring break vacation for the family. Staying strong. She is sick so I gave her a steam bath, hot tea, hot blanket, foot rub, medicine, time to rest while the kids are occupied with me.

He r mind is detached. What is she thinking about? I don't know. But I am not crying today!

Stretch - sounds like you're doing good..in the grand scheme of things. From your posts, you sound stronger and more balanced. Keep working at that and know that you'll have a range of emotions. Hang in there!

Sounds like shes turning a corner!

This is big news.
Last night: SF !!!

I told you so....LOL

WE both wanted it so bad. So many confusing thoughts.

"Does she want me?" "Does he want me?"
"Who starts?"

She was pampered like a princess all day. Great, great day with family. I asked, "Where are you? What are you feeling all day?"

She said, "I am trying to keep the hamster wheel from spining in my head. I am trying to just be still. And also regain my health. (been sick for weeks -- we agree much is emotional and spirtual fatigue.)" However she also said, "I am feeling rotten about me. You have married 40 something men online who think I am awful. You have your sisters who think I am a demon. My own support of friends and family are worried about you. I am shamed."

All I could say was, "I love you. I wasn't the best man I could be and I am sorry. You made a terrible mistake and you are sorry."

So....

We were watching TV in bed. I said, you know. earlier today I was rubbing your back and feet. I'd be happy to continue and give you a proper massage. Deep tissue including hips, legs and buns. No hanky panky. Maybe its too early."

But she was all over it. "Are you sure?" She ripped off all her clothes. Got comfy on the bed. Said, "I really want to feel your skin on my skin." She responded to having her body touched so deeply. WE really wanted it badly.

Our SF has always been really good. From the first time when we dated 18 years ago. We've been anything but boring. Just feel so good connected together.

This morning she told me her therapist has said to her, "I am surpirised that part of your relationship is so good. With how much bitterness you have toward your H, how empty you say the marriage is, how much you want to walk away and hurt him, you still say SF is deep, intimate, connected."

As great as SF has always been, we are imaging how much greater its going to become. Wow. Its going to be even better than this?!?! Hell yes.

Once again....I told you so. LMAO

BTW there are still very hard days in front of you. And a long road. But maybe now you can catch a glimpse of the prize...and some motivation.


And maybe you just hit the jackpot and hit hysterical bonding. Google it if you have never heard of it. LOL

Definitely a long road. We are not nearly there yet. Just a glimpse. We spent some time this morning processing last night. How did it start? How could we have intiated more directly? What was every motivation? What was every verbal and non verbal communication?

I mean, its good stuff. I have wanted more dialogue about SF and now we're getting it. So that's good.

Don't know what happens next. Lots of dialogue and processing. Got to take it slow. I want to have marathon talks. But she can't do that.

Stick with Plan A. Be the best I can. Change myself. Work on who I want to be for me, for my children, for my life partner. That's all I can do. It hurts a lot sometimes. But I shall stay strong.

30 JANUARY 2011
PLEASE HELP.
Help me with the next hour. THe next six hours. THe next 12.
The next one day.
How do I get through Sunday?

20 FEBRUARY 2011
We spent some time this morning processing last night.
How did it start?
How could we have initiated more directly?
What was every motivation? What was every verbal and non verbal communication?
I mean, it's good stuff.
I have wanted more dialogue about SF and now we're getting it. So that's good.

The measure of success is not a statement of where we are, but of how far we have come.

NeverGuessed -- Great Post!

Thank You

Plan A. Plan A. Plan A.


That's what got you to today.
It will get you through the next few months.

And get her past her fog.

Do. Not. Stop.


Meanwhile, work on changing yourself.

Read the book "Leadership and Self-Deception: Getting out of the box" by the Arbinger Institute. About 137 pages of gold.

SB

Stretch - YOU ARE DA MAN! I'm proud of you and more than a little bit JEALOUS! Please don't drop off now - you have to keep going with this plan A. My only suggestion is to try and find a balance, don't 'work' at this all the time. It's too emotionally exhausting.

You are both doing good. Glad to see, keep at it. Its fun when you get some results huh?

One of our latest nagging thoughts: How do we find the "new normal" as a couple with the people around us. Her group that was "in the know." My group that is helping me through this.

She says, "My people are all worried about you." Well, I do think they have all also made me the bad guy to a large extent.

She says, "Its hard for me to face your family now. I am the hideous demon. I don't know when I'll be ready."

She says, "Its hard for me to face your family now. I am the hideous demon. I don't know when I'll be ready."

1) As tempting and truthful as it may be to reply, "Very true because actions have consequences, stupid!", it would probably be slightly more useful to learn to say, "We will work through this as a married couple, as long as we remain committed to our marriage!" Say it, at first, through gritted teeth if you have to, but say it.
2) Do not unnaturally delay/divert/postpone the usual family events/gatherings. That will just engrave in stone your wife's "otherness".

Two weeks after my d-day, we went on a long-planned Carribbean vacation with my brother's family. Rough, yes, but important to the speed of our recovery.

Stretch--it excites me to see your results. That's Plan A and exposure at work!

I'm dealing with the "your family thinks I'm the devil" dilemma also. I agree with NeverGuessed... as tempting as it is to say "if you didn't want my family to hate you, you should not have done this," don't do it! I know from experience.

What is working for me, is the "I will fight for you, I have your back, and we will work through this together" approach. Not only does it let her know she's not alone, but she'll gain some respect for you as a man, since you're standing up and fighting for her. That's big stuff for guys like you and I, who (from the sounds of it) are generally passive individuals.

Congrats on the progress!

Who is more important? Your spouse or your (or your spouse's) family?

Jesus said, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and two will become one flesh?" - Matthew 19:4-5, NIV

Do you put your family's opinion ahead of your spouse's?

I don't think Stretch does--I don't either.

However, our WW's apparently put a lot of stock in the BS's family's opinion of them. I can understand how, if I was a WS, their anger and dislike (er, hatred...) would seem like a big obstacle to climb.

It is and it should be. Maybe even means they will think twice years down the road before doing this again.

I say let them deal with it. My wife certainly is, its tearing her up. I say good.

Mine's dealing with it, too, but I said to her that it was best to just get it over with...no sense delaying.

She hemmed and hawed and debated with herself about inviting my sister and brother in law inside for dinner.

"Yes." "No, I can't." "Yes let's do it." "ugh, no I am not ready...." "Yes."

I extended the invite and they rejected it. It hurt. A lot.

After years of my wife feeling hurt by my sister, we just have to move onto different couples relationships. Its sad because cousins are extremely important part of FC and our children. So we'll keep it a relationship for the kids, and because family is family and we won't disconnect. But I realize my wife has been hurt by my sister a lot over the years. And now, to make it worse, my sister has a real, justifiable reason to hate my wife. She cheated on little brother.

By the way, many times my wife has said, "I am tired of your damn 'Survivors group' b.s." However, after explaining that I find comfort in knowing other 40-something husbands and fathers in the same circumstances... and we call it a 'Support group' now... she said, "I am glad you found them."

Also, I shared the above advice about "Doing it as a couple" "I have your back / you have mine." "We do it together" She really appreciated that advice.

stretch, I have imagined this obstacle and I think I would say something like no one has the right to judge WW except me and God. If we can put this behind us it shouldn't be of the slightest concern to anyone else.

YEs; No one else matters. What matters is the two of us.

Our therapist pointed out yesterday, that we don't need anyone else's critiques. I have asked people to explain to me what I did wrong in the marriage. Give me some tough love. He said, you don't really need that. You just need support. Support for who the two of you are now. Support for what you did today and plan to do tomorrow. Do not look for everyone to make a list of wrongs each of you committed in the past to explain all the damage in the marriage. He said, you will need to say this over and over to people: "I don't want your critique of me or my wife. I want your support for the here and now."

Things you did wrong in the marriage? Why does that matter?

You are going to be the best husband you can be going forward. You are not looking to get graded here on past results. And nothing you could have done made her have an affair.

Don't be judging yourself. Do the best job you can today and each day going forward. And yes you are still allowed to screw up once in a while.

Stretch, just a little life lesson for you. I exposed to OMs GF two months ago. Broke the back of the affair instantly.

GF and OM just got engaged. Is that nuts or what? Anyway i don't have a thread but thought you would want to know - whatever you see in your situ, you go ahead and try to top that:)

Stretch - looks like you're doing good, all things considered. My situation is that she's still humiliated by me exposing to her family - and that's fueling her anger. Since she's shown no sign of recovery, I feel like I'm stuck. I can't make the 'us vs. the world' play right now. It doesn't feel right either.

Reynolds - WoW! Just like I said in my thread. That's strange, he must be a smooth talker.

Gentleman, let me just say that while we wish for the OM to die of gonorrhea and rot in hell for what they have done to our lives, it likely isn't going to happen.

However, what will happen when we expose, is the quality of the character of the OM will be exposed to our WW's.

I myself did not expose to OMGF until 2 months after I had the full truth, which was 6-8 months since I knew that something had been going on.

OM scrambled, lied, whined, and cried; and it all made it back to WW, even though he was in another state.

It showed WW exactly what a slimeball she had nearly destroyed her family for, and just what kind of slime he arose from (FWW works w/ OM's sister).

Never regret exposure; evil will always die in the light.

HHH - thanks for the post. I exposed within 5-6 weeks of D-day. That wasn't quick enough for the vets, but it was the fastest I could move. I'm not regretting exposure, but I have wondered once or twice whether I pulled the trigger too quickly on it. OM has cut off all contact, but the bigger fallout has been on her side of the street. She says that it doesn't bother her personally, but that her family is being put in the middle, etc. That bothers her. I attempted to use real logic (I know, I know) - why was exposure necessary? Because YOU were having an affair. If there's no affair, there's no exposure. If you decide to bail on DS and me now, your family will always have that nagging little question in the back of their mind about the amount of effort YOU put into saving the marriage. So, from that perspective, exposure has certainly put heat on her on several levels.

Exposure is also good for your own mental health.

Wanna know how many people who actually matter I exposed to?

1.

Not exposing, and not exposing immediately is an error. In terms of breaking the A, I was fortunate that OM was slated to leave the state any way... but that really doesn't make it better.

I understand the husbandly reasons to not do so; you don't want to embarrass your W, you don't want to embarrass yourself. However, it also gives you the opportunity to excise relationships which are not supportive of your marriage, thereby strengthening your foundations.

NEVER. REGRET. EXPOSURE.

Regret not exposing... I do.

Exposure really makes them stop and think. In my case, the fact that four of her closest (best friends + siblings) were in on it the whole time made her comfortable living parallel lives. But she had to carry on as one person with me in our relationship and another person around everyone else. That was exhausting on her. Exposure had to include other people that mattered. Like mom (who also knew) but importantly Dad. And some of her new friends, and the BH family (mine). I believe its the only way. I am only a two week vet now, but I see the wisdom completely from this side.

Over on their side, they all do not understand exposure. But Harley's plan has a pro-marriage track record of success. Sorry to point that out. And I know they are in that fog of denial/justification/guilt/defensiveness. If lying to your spouse and lying to yourself and lying to God don't bother someone.... maybe lying to Mom and Dad or the neighbor or the in-laws or some other friends does. Someone, somewhere has got to be able to please, please help your sweetheart come to her senses.

All that being said.... now that exposure is over, the only thing that matters is between us. What do we do from here.

Right now, even with exposure, I am still fighting for this marriage and she is just hanging back. She wanted to divorce me... she wanted to walk away... she chose an affair instead... now she is waiting to witness my changes.

That being said, in my sitch I can also honestly say that she is finally examining her role and her self and not just blaming hubby with revisionist marriage history. She is looking at her own depression and what causes it other than always the hubby. Only in tiny ways right now, but fog is lifting. I guess it helps a whole lot that her husband is a whole lot better man to her now than before the affair. Before, she did not have the space and comfort to try and be herself/ figure herself out. I was in on top of her with pronouncements and lectures and problem solving and criticisms before she even had a chance to talk out loud and share what was eating at her. So she shut me out. I am a better witness now. I don't jump in and take over the dialogue. I listen. I genuinely am intrigued. I want to hear her think out loud and process without offering my judgement and problem solving. Its just fascinating to watch her ideas at work and develop. This is helping with the depression now.

Now, this is what I meant by excising relationships; these were people who enabled the affair, enabled cake-eating, enabled IB.

If you are to view adultery as in-line with addictive behavior, then the logical step is that these people must be removed.

"Wet faces, wet places."


And, Dr. Harley was correct in his observation of the similarities in behavior with adultery and addiction - though it fits for relationships in general and addiction, and it is at the physiological level, which means it is more or less universally applicable.

I'll link the article some time when I don't feel lazy.

while we wish for the OM to die.....and rot in hell for what they have done to our lives, it likely isn't going to happen.

But when it does, gentlemen, let me assure you that it is every bit as sweet as you dream it can be!

So let's raise our glasses:

HERE'S TO A LONG LIFE TO OUR RENEWED MARRIAGES.......
AND AN EARLY DEATH TO THE OM!!!

Thank you for that!

I had to chime in with this as well--exposure can serve many purposes, and this is one. I showed WW some of the text messages I got from OM after exposing to his GF and mother then confronting him. They said things like "look bro I don't want your wife, YOU do" and "I am sooooo not in your life and don't want to be, I am a non factor you don't have to worry about me" and "I really don't want to be with your wife ok?" She about barfed, since this was so opposite the things he had been telling her. Either he lied to her, or lied to me, but either way was a slimeball.

Exposure is effective for many reasons. Just because it didn't achieve goal X in a certain amount of time, doesn't mean it wasn't effective.

All - thanks for the comments. Stretch - you're further along than me. I'm still getting the revisiionist history, the divorce is inevitable speech every night, and a host of other tantrums and jabs. I know it's fogbabble and I try to let it roll off, but it's grading on me.

The exposure worked to kill the A - I'm sure of that. However, it's the events after that, that are so divergent here (and undertandably so!). Some WS return back, seeing the light immediately. Some WS move out immmediately and some are in between. In my case, I think my WW personality and pride will ultimately lead her to leave the house; ironically, it's our DS that might lead her back here. That remains to be seen. She was just so out of it last night after talking to her sister - I don't know what to expect day to day. She doesn't know what she wants, she can't have DS and live the party life. She'd have to be responsible. She can't be responsible, if she wants the party life. She's started a new job = more responsibility. She does't want to be married to me = less responsiblity. She's just so deep in the fog, its f'in hard to see the ground or the sky. /end of rant

Andy, my psychology training begins and ends with one Graduate-level course in Adolescent Development, so I cannot cite references in support of my proposal here, but has WW ever been screened for BiPolar Disorder, or (more likely) Narcissistic Personality Disorder? (I wouldn't even begin to imagine the possibilities of BOTH of these neuropathies being present?)

Just something to consider......

NG - thanks - she's some of the all or nothing mentality to her. In other words it's all or nothing in some things. I don't think she's bi-polar. For example, she'll love a food or beverage or several days/weeks in a row and then quit cold turkey - saying 'I'm over it.' My job has taught me the benefits and possibilities of gray, that lies between the two extremes.

An early, painful and humiliating one. And I hope we all get to watch (from a distance)

My sitch is kinda different. The OM basically broke contact with WW when he learned she was M. Okay, he wasn't totally honorable. He kissed her and almost gave into her clingy, needy desperate pleas. My wife's single days MO was pretty simple. See what you want and latch on! Never let him up for air until you get what you want. During her midlife crisis she acted just like she did when she was 21. Clingy and needy.

So the OM kept on blowing her off. Letting her down gently. Not pursuing her. Probably she scared the crap out of him. Married woman groupie stalker.

Okay, okay. That's rather mean and cruel. But her behavior was mean and cruel dammit. And out of control. Almost acting like a possesed stranger.

Under Plan A I cannot be this angry and confrontational to her. But the disappointment in the behavior is very real. It was disgusting. Sorry. It was.

Sorry for what? It is disgusting.

Adultery is never attractive; it's sneaky and disgusting, and has to be to even exist.

Andy, the benefits and possibilities of gray only exist for those of us who acknowledge it's existence - gray only serves to confuse and anger the "black-and-white" crowd. They don't get it, they never will.

AND THAT'S OK.

Black and white keeps those of us in the gray in line, and we save the a$$es of the black-and-white when things go south.

It's a simple complimentary system. There are those that plan for everything, and those who simply adapt - in the day-to-day the planners are the best people to rely on, but when a disaster which doesn't fit the plans arises, it's the seat-of-the-pants types who rise to the occasion.


It works the same in marriage, and what has to be acknowledged is that it isn't how we get to our goal, it's that we GET TO OUR GOAL.

Oh, by the way, Stretch; your WW sounds like my MIL.

You guys have been so right about the emotional roller coaster.

I stopped crying non stop last Thursday. Been weepy here and there, but not 24/7 gut wrenching pain.

Feelings of paranoia. ('What hasn't she told me.' 'What is she saying to me that's a total lie' 'Why does she say the opposite to her family and friends?')

Feelings of "I just don't care... not worth it." Yuck. Our therapist says, "We need you to learn to be the best man you can be, so no matter how this thing tunrs out... you will be fine." As much as I hate that, I also caught myself playing with the emotion of resignation. I mean, if she cannot come around and be remorseful. If she cannot commit to the marriage and wear a ring again. (She says, "I can not make a promise right now.") How long do I wait? When do I say, "Fine. Let's quit. Move out please. Leave me and the kids and go move on and enjoy your fantasies." ??

Then, I go back to... "No Stretch, you are just reacting to the rolercoaster. Its only been two weeks. We've really only honestly been working on this for two weeks." Remember the prize. I still really love her. I want to enjoy grandkids together. She makes me happy.

Stretch - completely know what you're talking about. The coaster sucks for me today. You're in therapy and she's there with you, that's a positive thing. Try to use the positive aspects of what you're doing to help see you through. I waffle between resignation (I'll shock her one last time by filing) and oh God, I'd better plan for another 12-18 months of this stuff, because I love her and my DS so much.

Hey stretch. I actually envy you since y'all had the, um, "special" moment a few days ago. Keep up the good work and it sounds like you're thinking is pretty clear. How's the UA time going for your guys?

Oh, I thought I'd repost something that NeverGuessed wrote you earlier:

30 JANUARY 2011
PLEASE HELP.
Help me with the next hour. THe next six hours. THe next 12.
The next one day.
How do I get through Sunday?

20 FEBRUARY 2011
We spent some time this morning processing last night.
How did it start?
How could we have initiated more directly?
What was every motivation? What was every verbal and non verbal communication?
I mean, it's good stuff.
I have wanted more dialogue about SF and now we're getting it. So that's good.

The measure of success is not a statement of where we are, but of how far we have come.

Stretch and Andy: been there and done that too (except filing for D.)

Stretch: I think it's healthy to have a wee bit of resignation. It keeps you from being a total doormat. To have it means you are capable of thinking that, worst case scenario, you can move on and survive.

What's dangerous is to have feelings of "I can't survive without her" feelings. You will survive regardless.......

And we have four dear children.
What we have is pretty darn good. And I feel we are finally, really getting romantic love and we can build and grow romantic love. I am excited about the possibilities and the future !

That's awesome Stretch! I'm happy for you!

If only it comes true. And its not easy.

Today she was depressed all day. She picked a fight about privacy and emails. That got us nowhere.

She was depressed today before that fight. Had no energy to do anything. Basically went to bed for most of the day.

"I AM depressed. Depressed because I can't have an email to vent on. Because I can't talk to my friends. Because I wanted out of this marriage two years ago and you debated me. Because I wanted an affair and I couldn't get it. Because I am back working on this relationship that makes me miserable. I cannot be myself in front of you because you don't like the real me. I am depressed because you can rant on your support forum ten times a day and I can't."

I don't think she knows who "the real her" is frankly. She acts and lies to her friends, acts and lies to me, acts and lies to her therapist and our therapist. Dealing with depression that makes her desire to do nothing, finish nothing, and figure out a way to blame it all on me.

Anyway, I want to try this: "Just be who you think the real you is all the time. Nothing to lose. Give it a shot. I have learned a lot. I have learned to listen / to witness. I can take whatever. I will not fight. I won't debate. Just tell me. Remove your filter. Try it!" When it makes me mad, and I think she is wrong, and I want to debate her.... I will just write it down and ask for clarification later. Still, won't debate her.

I so badly want to find out what is going on inside her!

The way I am is... I want her to debate me when I say something. I want her to prove me wrong and teach me something. I probably wasn't always that way. Definitely wasn't! ... but I am 40 now and growing up. I am able to say I am wrong now, I am sorry now, I want to hear other opinions now.

Stretch do you see the opportunity there? She said you have the forum and she does not. That is the holy grail of recovery. GET HER ON HERE RIGHT NOW.

Its how Wondering recovered. Help her set up an ID, and the help for her will come quick...

No kidding do it now.

That is the holy grail of recovery. GET HER ON HERE RIGHT NOW.

No. No. No. No. No F'ing WAY!

There are rare, strong-minded, individuals who can come to a site like this as a WS, but they do NOT come here in the state of mind that THIS WW is in.

She would get eaten ALIVE by still-bleeding BS's and she'll believe that the vitriol that she is going to receive has been the fuel that has fed what she sees as Stretch's "bad attitude".

Stretch, please, please do not contemplate such an action. That will be the death-knell of any hope you have for recovery.

I don't think WW needs to be on this forum. First of all, do I really want her to read my thread? Obviously she or her friends could have found this thread by now-- and probably will someday. But do I need to facilitate that?

But also, what NG said, there are too many BS's on here that would eat her alive. She asked me once, "Are there any WS's on the forum? Where do they go to chat." Honestly, there are not very many WS. Its not a balanced forum. Perhaps some day. But right now exposure is two weeks old. Its too fresh.

I have shared a good deal of the advice and many of Harley's articles.

Reynolds, how about your WW? Is she on the forum? Did you practice your advice?

Sorry my first log on.

My wife is on the site, and is aware of the forum but has not posted. I do not have a thread as part of the plan to get her here.

The advice to bring her here was straight from Wondering who I trust completely. Yes she will take some hits.

I don't think you show her the thread, or give her your screen name. Also change your signature to blur who you really are. I have much less detail on my signature now for that purpose.

If Melody is on the fence - which she seems to be then fine. I figured it would be a great way to get moving if she showed remorse and a need for support which seemed to be what she expressed yesterday.

Mel thinks I need to move to Plan B and soon. I just can't right now. I believe its too early. I see progress with Plan A. She is reading about how she can make amends, about how she can rebuild trust, about how long she must listen to and understand my hurt. (One author said, just when you think, enough already... dear God how can you hurt so bad... your spouse will unpeel another layer of pain and share it with you. And you must sit there and listen!)

I am barely emotionally stable. I need to get stable before Plan B. But this idea that we can work through therapy for six months and she doesn't want to make any committment to the marriage.... that's not working for me. So I am starting to get used to those feelings of: I will be okay, I am resigned, she can leave if she wants and I will survive. When I am stable enough, I can consider Plan B.

Stretch - remember you need to judge how long you think you can hold out on Plan A. You and I haven't been at this very long, so try to hang in there. The coaster is tough...one day at a time, one day at a time..

Hey Stretch, help me out here. What happened between 2/20 and 2/23? On the 20th you wrote that things were going pretty well and now, well, it sounds like you're having one of those days.

Have you guys been spending time together (UA)? Anything else going on, besides the obvious, that could be causing the downward slide? I would ask if NC is still in place, but it sounds like that point is moot given who he was.

Just worried about you. But you're only 16 days since exposure, maybe your wife got nervous thinking the two of you were going too fast? That is, with SF, maybe she let her guard down and something is making her regret that decision?

One of my wife's favorites was "What if we end up back where we were? I'm kind of scared to try sometimes."

Food for thought, maybe there's some fear there that you guys could talk about if you figure out how to address it safely, without DJ, etc.

Hope tomorrow is better for you.

Stretch its just the roller coaster. Wave to the rest of us on the way past and don't worry.

I been there, trust me.

Stretch I don't recall, but have you seen your Dr yet about possibly getting some anti-depresant meds? Its helped me weather the storms.

Accepting the feelings you state above is what led to the turning point in my Plan A. I think it did happen after about 3 weeks for me, too. I began to eat and sleep better, and acknowledged that "well, this happened, I better get used to it." Becoming strong enough to know you WILL be ok and you WILL survive even if your M fails, puts you in a much better place to put forth a stronger Plan A or Plan B. Or negotiate your conditions for a better M.

I think once you accept that you CAN be ok on your own, you will start to act differently--not so desperate--which makes you seem MUCH more desirable as a husband, and greatly increase the chances your WW thinks "wait a sec--this guy I married--he really IS a catch, isn't he?"

The best quote someone gave me: "Being strong and independent, not needy and pathetic, makes you more desirable."

You are still on the roller coaster--so am I--but accepting that you can survive on your own will flatten out the ups and downs a bit.

So, Reynolds... when we gonna put that room together for the BH class of 2010/2011?

Gotta figure out a way to keep Marital out of our clubhouse, but not sure thats feasible.

We could talk about cars or something until she loses interest:)

Not being needy and pathetic is the best way to act under any circumstance.

By the way Stuck, how's the snow in Seattle today? My bro lives in Bellevue and he said yesterday was pretty bad. Maybe I'll buy you a beer when I come up for a Huskies game later this year. Sark really has turned the Dawgs around...sure enjoyed seeing them stick it to Nebraska.

Sorry, that one won't work, gentlemen: I used to work at a race track and drag raced there as a hobby. Better come up with something else.

Nice! Your husband is a lucky man!

I try to be well-rounded.

Time to revert to the rotten little boys that we once were, then...

Hello BH clubhouse.

There is progress. We have lots of UA. Lots of talk. What we need more of is recreational fun time. We have a family trip to Florida in less than a week. Good practice for the family unit. Good chance for me to work on FC. (take initiative, take interest, communicate and connect with the kids. No nose in the book or newspaper for hours while the kids play in the sand.)

Yes, I am medicated thankfully. I have been on anti-depressants since November and I have a pocketfull of Xanax.

She is coming around. I am just saying that I am feeling stronger and able to actually face the reality that she might have to move out. She is working on building the love and also getting past the anger and fog of being exposed. She is listening to me explain how much it hurts. Her favorite author (Mira K. - who has some very wrongheaded advice.... but also matches up well with Harley sometimes) her favorite author talks about making amends, building trust and listening for as long and hard as it takes to your BS describe the pain WW caused! Even when you think he can't peel off another layer of pain... he will. And you must sit there and listen.

I am definitely a lot less needy and pathetic. I need to get out of the house and do more for myself.

We have plans for restoring love. She and I both have idenitifed our EN's and the three simple things we both want to focus on to build love.

Plan A rocks. When I am strong enough... and if she has one foot in and one foot out for too long... then we'll think about Plan B. Meantime, I have some Harley reading that explains to WS how much pain she continues to inflict post-exposure with this indecision.

Also, since I seem to have a fan club out there with you BH's.... I will keep you updated on the SF developments this weekend!

Since I am spending way too much time in university textbooks once again, your action/drama/betrayal/love story gives me the chance for entertaining reading without having to pick up another book. We just need a few secondary story lines about the 10-keger frat parties and the midnight pool takeovers.

I've got the popcorn out, so keep up the fight. We need to have a reunion one of these days. Ha!

Too true--I have this as a sticky note on my computer, and read it regularly. Strong and independent!

Y'know, this was the most bizarre snow event I've ever seen. Downtown Seattle got barely a dusting. My house, about 30 miles South, got barely a dusting. 10 miles further south? 6 inches. In between my place and Seattle? 6 inches. And, head about 30 miles north and a bit East towards Bellevue and surrounding... 2+ FEET of snow. It's absolute insanity. These are places that shut down under 2 inches, and they're measuring in feet. Couple that with record setting cold (in the teens overnight) and it's been a truly strange week.

I'd love to catch a beer if you or anybody is in the area. Go Dawgs, that Nebraska game WAS a fun one!

Stretch--you're in a good place today... enjoy it, keep it up!

Hello all. Today I found MB and started reading this topic. So I start a jouney that I may find an answer to a question I dare not ask anyone around me. Will I be ok? I have not yet told her what I know about her actions.

Thank you in advance, as I am feeling better already from reading all the great feedback that Stretch has gotten.

Should I start my own topic or use a post to tell my story? Where do I learn the abbreviations used here. I will only be able to reply at my 9-5 job.

Start your own thread. There are links around here somewhere for the abbreviations. So, there is another story out of the Emerald City?

Welcome, itburns. Yes, you need to start your own thread. I'll notify the moderators for you and ask them to call it "Thread for Itburns_so." Look for it under Surviving an Affair.

Good to see you in better spirits stretch.

I think the only way to keep Marital out would be to tell Melody shes developing opposite sex friendships. Ahhhh Reynolds is starting to learn the kung fu around here.

LOL, bring your husband marital. He might take a 2x4 or two as a FWS, but we'll try to look past that.

LOL! My H initially wanted to come online, but he thinks it's just too hot in here for him as a wayward, even though he's earned his 'F'. He follows my postings and knows the travails of my 'favorites' (you're one of them!)

Mel knows I like guys. Make that 'one' guy. So you're not going to get there on that one either, mister. The He-Man Woman Haters Club WILL be infiltated. And we'll make sure you guys pick up your socks!

I am getting a lot of insight from AndyM's thread where everyone is talking about the convoluted mindset of the WS. Cognitive dissonance, compartmentalizing, justification, addiction. ("I found something that made me happy. I remember my conversations with him so fondly. I felt like I was the real me.") But its hard for her to grasp that it wasn't real. It was a fantasy. She didn't have to ask OM to write a check and pay for preschool and discipline a naughty child and navigate in-laws during the holidays and wipe noses and change diapers and juggle finances and be with her when depression strikes and pick her up when she feels frustrated about being a stay at home mom and support her when she tries to do something productive and support her when that fails and sooth her body when its sore and nurse her health when she is sick.

She went out when her health felt good, her depression was gone, she could leave the troubles and the cares and responsibilities behind (husband was taking care of all four kids for the weekend while she partied with girlfriends) and dancing and kissing and long conversations with OM were a fun diversion. The fantasy seemed so good.

Anyway, we really, really engaged in conversation again yesterday. She initiated. In the morning I asked her: "Why are you frustrated.?" And I listened. After I got home in the evening I asked her, "May I probe and ask about you? What were you feeling at 5 o'clock? Depressed all day?" Nope. I was wrong. She was frustrated about five different things. I listened and understood them all. 4 yr old was a tyrant today. Hubby wants affection but long kisses and hugs in the kitchen are too needy all the time. Wasn't really certain what time hubby would get home to help me pick up the minivan from the shop (based on my former behavior -- I owe her extraordinary promises and measures so she can feel safe about exactly when I will get home. Between 3:30 and 5:00 is simply not acceptable with my baggage). Minivan repairs were really expensive. Oldest DD was in a difficult mood and I was trying to be patient and get her to talk, but wife is frustrated my efforts are clumsy and engaging with the kids and getting to know them is a brand new effort for me.

She volunteered to read and discuss Harley's four rules (Care, Protection, Honesty, Time) and we talked about that for a couple hours while folding laundry.

I shared some pain and did get sad and weepy. (I met a 52yr old male colleague who shared his story. He is 52, divorced, single, hates dating, and just wants so badly for his WXW to love him again. I am devastated thinking I could be that guy in 12 years.) Apologized because sad and weepy is not "attractive." But for her she said its okay because, "Showing an honest full range of emotions is very desirable to me."

Its hard work, but we get a chance to a) Listen b) Say what we want c) Be Open and Honest d) Be supportive. And we are building up the UA hours.

I agree. I get a lot out of Andy's thread as well.

I think the fantasy can't be maintained for too long. I think thats why the vets keep hitting us with 2X4's to stop enabling and let them feel the consequences (reality). My confusion lies with plan A and how I meet her emotional needs without enabling. I'm hoping the Harley's can help me with that.

My WW has even stated that she didn't want to marry the OM because it might end up just like us. LOL WTH is the point then. No matter where she goes, there she is so unless she makes changes within herself, her cycle will continue.

Hang in there Stretch. This roller coaster is hard to ride constantly every day. But we have to keep our eye on the prize.

Thanks LNT.

Other people I talk to don't understand our BH group. We are working so hard to win back WW's because we love them. I hear all the time: "You are stronger than me. You are a better man than me. I wouldn't hang in there and do this."

Well, those gents haven't been sitting in our position. Also, quite often, its younger rash men that say that sort of thing to me. I have spent the past six months developing a deeper love for her. But I was frustrated that it wasn't getting all the effects. Little did I know she wasn't giving me a chance to deposit love units while she used vast amounts of energy to maintain this lie and betrayal. Now its very clear.

When she thinks: "Its impossible. Its too late." I am pretty sure what she can't see is that she will need to make the 180. SHe will need to admit to her A being a mistake. To the hurt and deceit. To revisit a lot of her revisionist history. To believe in me and my changes and growth. I have demonstrated so much remorse for mistakes and missing her EN's.

But when she says, "It's too late.." She means:

"Its easier to quit and not believe in my H."
"I am afraid to shatter these big walls and these stories and predjudices that I worked so hard to build in order to allow myself to have an A and defend my terrible actions."
"I will have to drop my baggage about what my husband said or did five years ago that I convinced myself justified my affair and that's uncomfortable."
"I will need to talk to my friends and family and be supportive of my husband, and be honest about our growth and that's going to be a switch in my way of talking to my support group."
"It was easy to make H the bad guy and get their support, encouragement and approval for my A. Now I have to be fair and honest with them. And with my personal therapist."
"Now maybe I have to understand my own responsibility for my depression."
"None of this is easy or fun."
"Now I have to believe in H's remorse and guilt for missing my EN's all those years and believe in the new man."
"Now I have to figure out what I did that maybe missed his EN's."
"This is a lot of hard work."
"It was going to be easier to blame you and just quit."

I think that sums up what's so frustrating to the WW. Damn these dedicated, committed BH's for their love and devotion! Why don't they just get angry and play the abusive role like I expected them too?!?!

Just so you know Marital, I have been picking up my socks for a number of months as part of a comprehensive program to reduce annoying habits...lol

Stretch, glad you had a good talk, keep it up.

Good talk is not all we had btw...
Mind blowing SF.

I hope this is real and its heading somewhere!

Hey Reynolds, there is no honor or pride or humor in attempting to create a 'BH Clubhouse' for solace in regard to my interpretation of MB. I realize the tee hee in terms of salving betrayal wounds and relieving the stress, but it doesn't work with me. I think Stretch needs much more than you and Bliss have offered very recently.

So, maybe either be prepared to offer up LONG-TERM marital experience and success or shorter-term expertise and counseling training.

Stretch: I realize that you need the committment from your WW at this time. The thing I think you are going to have to realize is that to gain that, you are going to have to show your patience for a long time. It seems unfair. It's a risk, but the only person who can decide if it that risk is acceptable is you.

Tom

You hit the nail on the head stretch. I was one of those guys who would say that until it happened.

My WW has even admitted that she F***ed up and acknowledge my pain and has been remorseful.....but only a couple of times. Yet she still continues and gets deeper and deeper in. I think she wants to leave herself with no other choice, or for me to make that choice for her.

Congrats on the SF! I think thats one of the reasons my WW won't even stay here at night now. She KNOWS it will happen. I mean come on, she can't resist THIS! lol And she don't want to 'cheat' on the OM......at least not yet. She is so backwards. Thank God for Marriage Builders so we know this is basically standard behavior for WS's, and that we are not alone.

I do need her commitment. I do. I really want that. But I guess its going to be a long time. How much patience do I have?

Before D-Day, I made this one of our goals with our new therapist. I had a goal for her that was: She is committed to the marriage. She wears her wedding ring.

In the fog since exposure she got defensive and justified. But the fog is lifting quite a lot. Still, she said "I will not lie. I cannot give you a promise that you want. Don't try to push me."

Plan A. Plan A. Plan A.

When I cannot take it any more, and I feel strong and independant then Plan B. But, maybe Plan A gets me the commitment.

For now, I am enjoying our time together. Life is semi-normal. The intimacy and talks and open/honesty is great. I think we're building love units. And I have a chance now like I didn't when she was shackled with her lie.

Stretch - I think your "It's too late" list is great. WW and I have had this conversation in the past (last year some time before I knew of the affair) - she would say the 'easy' or 'safe' choice was to stay with me and I would counter with the opposite. See, it depends on perspective - easy = ho-hum, comfortable lifestyle, hubby is easy etc. Or hard = work through the doldrums to renew, refresh and keep the romance alive. What is it that you want?

I'm really happy for you - man! I'm still in the same place, waiting for the check to arrive (so to speak).

Don't be too happy yet. There are good times, great times, and bad times. I adore the heck out of her, cannot stand it how much I love her. And then, when its not returned, I break down and cry. Rollercoaster is right.

She might not love me back. Might not want to try. She broke my heart. Still broken. And she might break it again.

But there is definitely progress. Good times. We do NOT act like nothing has happened. Its very real. We come back to discuss it and work on MB homework and reading.

Looking forward to vacation. Its 0 degrees here and snowing again. Going to get the family to the beach next weekend!

I pampered myself and bought myself a Color Nook. I deserve it. She said, "I figured you were doing something like that."

Stretch, it sounds like you may have entered hysterical bonding. From what I understand about that, its a good sign, particularly if started by your wife.
Don't worry about being in love with your wife. You are going to need every bit of that for the marathon down the line. There are lots of days my guage is bouncing on empty, but you try to keep moving.

Tom, not exactly sure what your issue with my post is, but not looking to start an argument with you on someone elses thread. Please believe me when I say I believe it can't all be heavy advice and brow beating on these threads - part of the purpose is to give stretch a support system. He should know and I think he does that I have been his friend here, and always will be here for him. If I feel he needs more advice than I or orthers can give him, I will go get a top flight person for him. Marital is definitely one of those.

Does Harley ever write or talk about hysterical bonding?

Looked around and some great old threads for newly betrayed.

Plan A will not work for you if.... (I need to adjust my thinking somewhat)
Inside the Wayward Mind.... (I have heard all of this!)....

So, I learned Dr Harley said Plan A works 15% of the time. Men can typically keep it up for 6 months. Okay, I have expectations and an end date in mind.

Meanwhile, I understand the WW fogbabble. They all say the same things.

Based on how its going for you, I say you are better than a fifteen percent shot. Just don`t do plan doormat is all. Have your plan, stick to it and don`t give up your boundaries.

Hysterical bonding LOL, have a look in the recovery section, there are a few mentions of it there. Otherwise just google it - just remember to clear the damn browser:)

It would seem tom feels he flies higher than the rest of us around here. 42 years of M is a long time, but I've been m'd 41 and one half years to my W.

Don't get caught up in this non-sence.

Tom, get off your high horse, you look like Napoleon.

All Blessings,
Jerry

Well said, Stretch!

I have never understood why Dr. Harley gives a different timeline to men vs. women. Maybe I'm just over-sensitive, but there's NO WAY I could have Plan A'd for 6 months. Maybe having kids makes a difference? I don't know....

Stretch, I hate to say this, but it's important for your to think and decide about whether you want to save this marriage if the affair was physical. Based on the way she's been acting, I feel pretty sure this was a PA. Have you considered that? Will that affect your attempts towards recovery>

Sorry to be negative - I just want to make sure there's no loose ends left in the closet an you begin the real recovery work.

Best wishes, Arpeggi

It seems this was not PA. Based upon the emails and the conversations with friends.

It was EA. Just as bad though. She wanted PA. She asked him for it. She admitted she wanted to jump into PA if he would agree and spend more time withher. So its pretty awful to think about. She was heartbroken this man would not pursue her. I've seen her more upset about his rejection than about this marriage. All part of the fog. What she did was terrible and she's coming to grips.

I read more about Plan A. I can do 6 months. I am getting stronger every day. Just working on me. I've been thinking about D for only a week or two and it doesn't reduce me to tears every time. She has been thinking about D for at least 2 years. All a fantasy though for her. She will really think about it if/when we hit Plan B.

But perhaps we have a better than 15% chance. It seems that we do.

Mental breakthroughs for me about Plan A:
--Its not about getting my EN's met.
--I cannot force her to commit
--I cannot make her show remorse or be sorry
--I cannot make her forget OM.
--She wonders what Ammends she must make and what she should do to build Trust. That's fine and dandy to think about now. But we won't work on that until we're in recovery. Right now... Plan A.
--She has one foot in / one foot out. I can't force her to decide.
--I am becoming the man, the husband, the father I want to be. So I know I am very lovable and worthy of someone. Hopefully her.
--I am building emotional strength.
--When I am strong enough and feel I have done my best (about six months) I will evaluate if she has commitment. If she has one foot in and one foot out.... Plan B.
--Plan A = see what your Marriage could really be like.
--Plan B = see what your Divorce could really be like.

[/quote]
I feel pretty sure this was a PA. Have you considered that? Will that affect your attempts towards recovery>

Sorry to be negative - I just want to make sure there's no loose ends left in the closet an you begin the real recovery work.
[/quote]

I have suspicions there was something else. Possibly further in the past. Still looking into it. Can't have another one holding her back in MC. She gave about 5% to our therapy last year while I was making major breakthroughs and working my butt off on me. All experts agree (not just Harley) if one of you is in an affair and you're trying MC -- you got no chance. Save your $. Our therapist last year actually knew about her A. HE KNEW. And took our money for 9 months. Any professional would have called her and said, "I can't help you. You're not working on this with me and H."

So I could be paranoid about another one in the past -- but I won't be naive. We'll find out. If it happened -- her peeps know about that too.

How in the heck do you snip those original post quotes. I cannot for the life of me figure that out after all these weeks.

To break up a quote, do this:

Hit the quote button for your reply. The posters text is shown with [quote=postername] at the beginning and [ /quote] at the end.

Then take out the text you don't want to quote and then type /quote but put /quote in brackets [ ] to end it.

To post another quote segment, put [quote=postername] at the beginning and [/quote ] at the end (without the space between e and ].

It's kind of hard to type it because the program wants to put my response in a quote box.

got it hopefully

WW fogbabble:

"I can't remember a time I ever liked being his wife"
"This marriage has always been hard"
"We stopped having fun. When we first dated he was fun. I don't remember any fun in the marriage."
"I knew something was wrong from the beginning."

We met our personal MC therapist today, I pointed out that she says all these things about our history... tons of stories about how it never worked, never fun, all bad memories. He looked at her and said with a straight face yet poking fun at her, "Well of course you had to do that. You really needed to work hard to tell yourself all those stories."

Careful with that Stretch. Before I found MB, I went to counselling, and the MC spent two sessions working over my wife. I got off scott free..any issues I caused were minor. And the affair plowed right through that. Waywards can't reasoned with, bartered with, convinced or reformed in MC.

Nice vidication, I am just saying don't make more of it than what it was. If it does reach her great, but I doubt it.

I know. MC is often really bad. I did my homework this time and made sure this guy was good. I asked him to be what Harley said: A Motivator, A Coach, Have a Plan, Prepare us for Emotional Stress. He has been all those things.

First MC was incompetant, unprofessional, unethical boob.

It helps her to hear someone else be tough. But I agree, I wonder how much is in one ear and out the other. She was faking it in MC for a year before exposure. Lying is easy and natural. Hearing what she wants to hear can be easy and natural too.

Thats exactly the problem. My wife told the counsellor that it was over blah blah blah I want to work on it blah blah blah.

That lasted about two weeks.

But it seemed like a very positive conversation, we all agreed, we were all headed the same way.

In the end the only thing that ended the affair was plan A and exposure. Now if I could only get us recovered, we'd be all set.

I'm not sure how I missed this or I would have addressed it sooner.

Oh, now Tom, simmer down. The stress a betrayed spouse endures is incomprehensible, and the emotional pain of reclaiming a marriage from an affair is almost more than some people can handle at times. That is when a little levity goes a long way toward supporting a BS emotionally.

One of the tools that can be a Godsend to a BS is humor. It is especially useful when the poster offering the humor has become a friend of the BS in question. Humor can be a lifeline.

Thank you MB.
I am only 3 weeks past exposure day and finally regaining some composure and emotional stability. Humor is good. Levity. Taking a vacation. Exercise. EN's with wife including OH, CO, FC, and SF!!!

But it gets heavy. The fog is just starting to lift for her. This will be a marathon. I've got about 5 more months that I can stick with Plan A.

Hey hi....

I just get a little disgusted with the half-hearted efforts presented by some of the BH's on here. I.E., if ya want to play for the Packers (win your W back) you better get your butt and your mind in gear! And, if Reyonolds is really serious about his M, would you not think he would risk his own thread?

That is all..

Tom

Hey Stretch,

I do honestly hope things will go well for you. My one concern is that with the exception of Marital you do not seem to have any veterans advising you. Have you considered consulting with the Harley's instead of putting out the funds for another MC? I think you would be farther ahead.

t/j/

Yea Marital, point taken. The humor, yea, IF it was coming from proven vets. My whole point is that you cannot have a backup quarterback advising the starter! Who the hell is this Reynolds guy and where is his thread? No skin off my you know what, but if I were Stretch I would want more true veterans here to advise, and you seem to be the only one now.

Take care Atretch and Marital,

Tom

Now, Tom. You know better than anyone that the coach defers to his offensive, defensive and special teams coordinators to utilize their talents and bring home the win. It takes a lot of different skills to get the Ring.

So compare us to the coach's coordinators in this case.

Tom, seriously what is your issue? Do you have a thread Tom? Or are you simply recreationally on the site? Telling some BHs to "grow a pair" or something similar is less than helpful. Have you been in our shoes? I would really like to know.

Yes, I did have a thread and a number of very good people helping me, including Marital, Melody and Wondering. Its those same people who encouraged me several months ago to jump in and encourage BHs through exposure.

Yes, we are in recovery, as broad a term as that is.

I do not see what makes you a vet, and I never claimed to be one either but like I said I have no interest in picking a fight with you. If you prefer to fight we can let the mods decide who should stop posting to stretch.

Regards.

Who the hell is this Reynolds guy and where is his thread? ... if I were Stretch I would want more true veterans here to advise

TMMX-
I don't remember anyone here being awarded "Vet" status by anyone. We bring our own experience to these threads, post as we feel it would contribute to the discussion, leaving the initiator free to consider our points, accept them, reject them, or parse them into accept/reject segments.

The only editorial supervision would be that the comments can not be left unaddressed if they violate MB Principles, or certain standards of decorum. (Serial violater here!)

So your problem with R531 is what, exactly? That he might come across too strong? That you disagree with him? Well, you're free to take issue with, and counter, his advice with your own. But to snidely imply that he is somewhat unworthy to have, and offer, an opinion is, I think, out of your accorded range of site-competency, and given your history of contributions to this marvelous site, somewhat surprising.

So, can we end the t/j, and return to helping Stretch?

Hey stretch, is that fog lifting yet?

Hope things are going better for you.

Things are better. The fog lifts. I am stable.

Not interested so much in the distraction going on my thread with Tom and the "vets" or "non-vets"... whatever.

I value everyone's contribution. I appreciate that some have recovered for a long time... some for a short time... some did not recover... some men had their exposure day the same day as mine and we are in different places now, probably going to have different experiences. I even value Tom who apparently never dealt with infidelity in 41 yrs. Truly happy for his marriage and jealous.

Back to me and my marriage. Its hard sometimes. My wife does not want to hurt. I can't stand to see her hurt. But how can we avoid that? She has said hurtful things to me and its hard to sit and listen to justification fogbabble and not respond. But I want O&H so I need to hear her mind. Take it as a gift. I don't have to agree. She doesn't have to think I agree, even a little bit. But I am working on not getting defensive.

Here was the hardest one last Sat night: "If he was a woman, this wouldn't even be an issue. In the end, we really just had a friendship. Its like I made a friend."

That justification fogbabble hurt. ANd she admitted it sounded like justifaction nonsense. But I had to jump in. How ridiculous. You made a "new friend" that you kissed and asked for sex. That you created a web of deception and lies to meet with. That you fantasized about blending your children and families with. That you gave a piece of your heart and wanted to love.

I should have just listened and said, "thank you. That's difficult to accept honestly. It does hurt to hear you say that, but it was honest so thank you."

If that fogbabble exists in five months and I cannot take it any longer... Plan B.

the easiest path she sees - right now - is for you to "get over it". She doesn't believe that you can feel the full hurt and still love her. To her its your feelings that threaten her security, instead of her actions. I'm no expert but I think that realization comes slowly. Its up to you to show her that you can feel both things and that your desire to work through it is actually the foundation of your future.

I know all too well what its like to hear these things, but you are so far the valedictorian of the exposure class of 2/7

Not so fast. My circumstance didn't get as deep as yours. It seems I am the one dealing with an EA and not a PA. In addition, the EA was not very active. Her last visual contacts were 11/09 and 8/10. Since then, some stupid emails she sent that OM never answered.

Some force at work did not allow the OM to give in to her demand for a PA. She said, "His will was strong." Or maybe, I interject, his sense of decency, right and wrong?

The betrayal hurts as bad though. Knowing she was determined to leave the marriage and determined to have an affair. I guess we're lucky it did not happen. But she really wanted it too. Also, still have a nagging deep suspicion that there was something else that occured further in the past. Maybe I don't want to know. (Which goes against Harley's Radical Honesty -- and will put up invisible barriers for the rest of our marriage.)

Right now, we are trying to figure out how to learn to be O&H and avoid hurting each other. When we know damn well that in this affair recovery process there will be loads of hurt.

Stretch, refresh me - did she leave that job?

She does not have a job. Stay at home mom for many years. Part of the issue is self-worth and isolation and wondering if it is hubby's fault I don't work and found myself in this place in life...etc. She has honestly stated that this is what she wanted to do in life, she thanks me for providing, but still she is bitter about losing a lot of her identity being stay at home mom. I should have recognized that. But also, she hates working / bosses / stress / the hours / the energy / the crapload and bullsh*t you deal with in a job. I have dealt with all that burden.

So anyway, she sold MLM in the past. She is writing romance novels now. (Her first novel, written last year, turns out was 85% true to life. All about a stay at home mom with 4 children that falls for a guitar man in a band and has two friends and a brother that know about it. So, so much truth in the whole manuscript. Boy, that made me uncomfortable for months when I was in the dark and I was treated like an a**hole for being so sensitive. She has apologized for all that lying. Writing the book was cathartic. I think I have been super supportive of her writing career choice. But painful to read for me now more than ever. Also, ironically, an insight into her feelings and an opportunity to see O&H. But I am bitter I was treated like a paranoid a**hole when I was being supportive even though uncomfortable and turns out my suspicions were correct.)

So... that's an entertaining sidenote for the forum, writing the confession novel is a somewhat bizarre twist to our tale.

Silver lining, she found out she has a real talent for writing. She is quite good. I have a lot of admiration. She has made a lot of new friends. Many healthier relationships with other writing women.

Wow,

I have been writing a "novel" too that is surprisingly true to live.

Chalk that up as another behavior of a (F)WW

sunnydaze, can you tell me more?
Are you FWW? If so, thanks for braving the heat of our BH clubhouse. I appreciate you being here.
Would like to hear more about your writing a novel experience.

Stretch - I think I'm married to your wife's lost sister. Your first paragraph describes my WW almost perfectly:

"She does not have a job. Stay at home mom for many years. Part of the issue is self-worth and isolation and wondering if it is hubby's fault I don't work and found myself in this place in life...etc. [NOT MINE-She has honestly stated that this is what she wanted to do in life], she thanks me for providing, but still she is bitter about losing a lot of her identity being stay at home mom. I should have recognized that. But also, she hates working / bosses / stress / the hours / the energy / the crapload and bullsh*t you deal with in a job. I have dealt with all that burden."

Ironically, part of the last statement is what my WW is now confronting. She's got hired at a good company that pays well for the area, but it's a stressful job. So, now you throw the marriage problems on top of that and guess what - she's stressed. She actually mentioned that during our MC session - I couldn't stop myself, so I responded with the fact that my job is just as or more stresful than hers AND I had to go to work every day since D-day. So, pardon me, if I don't feel too sorry for your inability to concentrate. I'm confronted with the same problem. The difference is that YOU created it by having an A.

I paid attention to WW, asked her to get involved in the community or get a part time job. That would give her an identity outside of wife and mother. Well, that lasted about one year, then she stopped volunteering. That created a lot of idle time, that appears to have created a lot unwise ideas, which ultimately ended in an A. So, for my situation, I want my wife to have a full time job now and all the good and bad things that come with it. It's not just the paycheck, it's the time, the fatigue, the BS, etc. Need both sides represented here. Sounds like both our WW need a productive way to channel their energy and time.

I hear you. My BIL and sister said, "Just get a job." I don't want to be that petty. I love my wife's choice. We are very fortunate she is here for the family. I count it as a blessing every day. And we agreed on this from the outset of marriage. But a stay at home mom after so many years really gets removed from the world and its frustrating. And the husband MUST recognize that and be supportive.

So since I did not see that or help her, a lot of idle time leads to some difficult ruminations.

She has totally isolated herself now. Not me. She hasn't gone to any of her classes, skipped bible study, skipped taking the littlest one to preschool. I mean, really checked out.
Honestly, I have done practically none of my work the past 4 weeks either and the guys at work I trust have my back luckily. They understand. Neither my wife nor I have been functioning at full level since this exposure.

Stretch - I'm there with you and I can't afford to be doing this much longer. I can't phone it in and I have to seriously concentrate. I think, deep down, beneath the fog, she sees it. I just think that WS are so much into their own world and fantasy that they can't see anything outside that. That's the main reason I couldn't let it just go by. The 'woe be me' stuff - well, I have to deal with it too. She also tried to throw quitting her last job at me and I shot that down too - she quit that because of DS and not me. Now, of course, she wishes she would have kept the job. It would've kept her on the road for most of the week. Good for her, bad for me.

I knew that being a HW and mother was going to be tough on her and I told her that before we moved across the country for my job. She can't blame it on me; besides she was absolutely miserable at her last job. That's something she conveniently forgets to mention now. I encouraged her to get out and do something, school, volunteer, etc. Well, that worked for a short time. Ironically, the first p/t job led to her making more friends, led to going out one night a week....led to more going out...ultimately landing me here. You just can't win. It won't be like that with her current job, so I hope she succeeds.

My WW has checked out of the M right now. She's told me so, but I keep on fighting her on that front with plan A. Obviously there's still a glimmer of hope somewhere and I hope that (subconsciously) she feels that too.

Stretch,

I finally just read your whole thread. It sounds like you are doing very well.

I would imagine it would be hard to hear complaints from your WW after "what she has done." That sort of negates everything...

but then if you want to have the best marriage possible, it really doesn't.

We are 18 months out. Things are definitely better but I am having trouble distinguishing between my BH's true unadulterated pain and the "secondary gain" he maybe experiencing. I read the thread's of Bs's so that I can remind myself of the pain I caused and try to keep it in perspective when he seems to be behaving badly.

I don't want to infringe in your club but you guys have helped me a alot and if I can do the same, I would gladly.

Good luck.

I would like to read your wife's book someday.

Good luck Andy. Know that we are pulling for you.
You want the M. She may someday see she can have everything she wants right in front of her. YOu are there, ready to fulfill her life.

We are off on family vacation to Florida!!

Good talk about O&H last two days. But we are taking a break and focusing on Recreation and Fun and Family.

SF this morning after our coffee to kick off the trip. That was healthy. Start off feeling connected and jolt of Oxytocin.

Have a wonderful vacation Stretch. I hope its everything you need for you as a couple.

Can't resist the need to post from vaca.
Getting away from it all but still so much on my mind. For her, this has been part of her life for a looong time. For me its so new. So she is better able to shut it out for awhile.
But vaca is great.
FC is her top EN. I re read that chapter in HN/HN. So I understand better. I am engaged with the kids. DD finished a book on the plane and I listened to her tell me about it. Read the first three chapters. Its a fantastic book. Wow. We played in the sand. Collected shells. Played in the pool. I stay present and engaged with FIL and step MIL. Awkward as they were exposed too and have mixed feelings. (ie SIL should have been better H but his WDD is a disappointment. He is angry with her but loves her. ) Maybe we won't talk on the subject during this trip. That's good. I am open if its brought up. But I won't push.

Looking at the surf and the kids playing and laughing and we were holding hands she said,"thank you honey, this is what I always wanted."

I am getting lots of tender sincere hugs. I like the new me.

There is a ton to process and pain and anger to come out when we hit recovery. But this is just a taste of what life could/ should be like.

Oh yeah. Almost forgot. We were playing in the sand with DD (7) when she asks,"will you live together for the rest of your life?"

Stretch - that last sentence is tough, isn't it. It looks like you're on a good path though. Hopefully the family will watch the kids from time to time, so that the two of you can connect as a couple.

Great connection on this vacation. Thoughts about A never leave my mind for long. Time to process more when we get back. I know I need to pace myself better and smooth the roller coaster.

I think she is making up her mind about this M and its going to be a good thing. The prize may be in sight. But, like I realized a couple weeks ago... I just need to work on becoming the best man / father / husband I want to be. If we move to Plan B... I need to be sure I am strong for that.

Andy, when DD (7) said that... "Will you live together forever?" I just thought... 'Out of the mouth of babes...' Oof!

The home we are in now... my WW says, "I want to live here forever and see the grandkids here." Well, I know she wasn't envisioning me in the picture before. But now... maybe so.

Lots and lots of healing yet to go. Not near recovery yet.

On this vaca, the topic hasn't come up with FIL or step MIL. I think none of us wants to talk it over this week. When we are all back home there will be dialogue. I am learning to pace myself. Its hard. But time, time, time.

Maybe you and my wife can meet someday and share manuscripts. She is jealous I have a club of men that are like me. Where is her Survivor's group, she asks? Thanks for lookin in and listening. You are welcome here. You are brave to join us here. Appreciate your words.

Stretch - I'm so happy for you! That's awesome. It sounds like you're on the right path. I'm still in no-man's land and she's still trying to figure it out. It's incredible, the moods she's going through right now. A day ago, don't touch me, tonight, very fatigued and tired; a foot rub was okay. WTH? We have lunch planned tomorrow, who knows which personality I will face.

I'm still smiling about your latest post - that's just plain awesome! I hope you have a great week down there!

Andy... you won't believe this but...
(I hate to boast.. but, oh WTH)
I already told you the morning we left... nice SF before packing for airport. Okay.
So, end of first day at the beach and pool... taking my shower in hotel, rinsing off the beach, suntan lotion, chlorine.... so she comes in, locks the door, joins me in the shower... just happy about the day and.... shower SF!

I need to read more on that Hysterical Bonding thing Reynolds keeps telling us about.

Hey, this could be a roller coaster mood swing thing. I CANNOT get cocky and comfortable. Plan A. Stay strong. Work the plan. I must not think for one second we are in recovery. This is just good loving and FC happiness right now. There is a lot of pain and sh*t to process when we get back. Time, time, time.

Way to rub it in stretch!!

Seriously, though, glad to hear that y'all are getting somewhere. I think I'm like you (sans SF, unfortunately) and hesitant to call myself recovered. You must be doing something right, so keep it up, sounds like you're doing really good!

I will stop theSF posts. In all seriousness, yes its an important EN and an important development in our healing. But, also un gentleman like. This is a safe forum for honest discussion. But still, I need to learn better boundaries. And I know my wife would appreciate better boundaries.

In a radically honest relationship with POJA I should not write something my wife would not want to read.

We have a long way to go to work on O&H. But I can model and practice better behavior now.

Whoa, stretch, I wasn't calling you out or offended or anything Seriously, don't feel like you have to censor your posts based on anything that I said and I hope that's not what you meant. I meant the "way to rub it in" comment in good fun...kind of hard to convey a jovial tone on the keyboard, guess the smiley face didn't work.

But, if you're recanting based on what you wouldn't want your wife to read, then that makes sense, too.

Right. No offense at your post nwoods. Its good guy banter. Thx

But I am saying I intend to change disrespectful guy banter. Same way I gave up porn or strip clubs on business. Some wifes don't care. Good for them. My wife used to not care. But now she says she does. So, POJA. Iam empowered and strengthened when I say to myself: "we have OH M so if I do this I will tell wife. What would she think."

Yup, this is pretty common (and fun while it lasts!)

Another common thing that sometimes happens is that around the six months mark, you will experience anger and resentment all over again, even if you're still working towards recovery. Know this is possible and be prepared.

This is why it is so important to stay with the MB principles even after the affair is ended. It should become a way of life in your marriage.

Stretch - I'm escastic for you!! SF, wow, I'm getting whatever the opposite of that is..paging Ms. Bobbitt, paging Ms. Bobbitt... :-) It makes me feel good to see that others are having success.

So now I am the Hysterical Bonding guy? LOL not at my house:)

Glad to see you are still doing good Stretch. And yes, six months sucks for sure.

stretch, don't stop posting about SF...right now there is a group of us that can only get SF vicariously thru you. If you stop posting you're cutting us all off.

+1,000,000 to F4L - I'm with that 100%, but keep it PG, okay, maybe R rated.

Any idea how long I have been trying to reply to this darn thread? I hope this thing stays up!

Stretch, if you want to be a gentleman I think thats great. The rest of us hounds can get by with out the details. Plus you might want to show her this thread many many moons down the road.

You keep your details to yourself, enjoy all the good stuff coming your way.

That's right Reynolds. Its fun banter and all that. But I am working on me... working on changing my ways. I want to be more respectful of our shared SF. And its getting better the more open and intimate we are, the more uninhibited and fulfilling it becomes. But immature guy banter and so forth is a bad habit.

This site has really been acting up for days. I wasn't able to get on for a long time either.

We have had some family stress with a funeral and everything that goes with it. Heck of a time to work on Plan A. But I really, really am staying strong. Avoiding any LB's during these trying times and being a part of her family... helping the kids through a funeral... sharing so many memories with her family... those are all love unit deposits. I hope she finds me irreplacable and a strong loving man to share these sorts of times with. Can't imagine going through this without each other.

But I am not behaving the way I am (loving her family... taking care of my children... taking care of her EN's) just to win her back. I am not. I am doing this for me. Because I want to be the best man I can be. Of course, I hope I am depositing love units and winning her back. But I resigned: that's out of my hands and I will eventually be at peace with that and strong enough to let go. I am being who I am for my future and because I like being this man. She will probably fall in love with me again / lift the fog / find remorse / find commitment / work on our marriage with renewed zeal and devotion / finally enter "recovery.". Seems we have a chance for Plan A to work. Pretty good chance. But "recovery" is not a certain thing.

Stretch - sounds like things are going well for you. That's awesome! I'm sorry that it's a funeral, but it is also an opporutnity for you to shine. I don't mean any disrepect with that statement.

None taken.

I was very conscious of the fact that I wanted to shine... but I am not doing what I do just to show off, manage my impression to everyone... just to win her back.

I tried my best to be the best man I could be today because its who I want to be. I actually gave a really long eulogy for her grandmother. Told a lot of great stories. Got the room laughing and crying. It was easy though. I can speak in front of people. Tears are easy. So are telling jokes. But honestly, it was easy because I really loved her grandma. And I love her mom, and her whole family. Even the ones that betrayed me (they are not dead to me... but we are not all good either... there is some serious work to be done between us!)


Most of all... I did love that dear grandma. Her grandma was like my grandma too. So giving the eulogy was easy. I sat down to write and the words and stories just flowed. It was easy and an honor.

Stretch - I'm like you - it was the right thing to do - and that's most important. Taking the high road isn't always easy, but it sounds like you did exactly what you should have done. I'm sure you made some LB$ deposits with WW and others. This also put you in a favorable light with WW's family, for all the right reasons - especially the ones that know of your troubles.

Having a hard time with plan A tonight. Feeling discouraged. I think she is now trying extra hard to find faults. MC today was whiplash. After great family vaca and then LB deposits at gma funeral I had to hear about two things Idid wrong during the week. Its not fair. I have a.dozen really bad things I want and needto be angry about but have to wait. Logic debate is no good. I feel I have no voice. Can I do this for four more months?

It feels good to have the forum. I would have lost my cool probably and gone on an angry outburst.

Stretch - YOU'RE DOING JUST FINE! There's going to be ups and downs and let's face it, you're just on a dip. Vent here, take a walk, lift weights, go for a jog, etc. Burn off the excess energy. Don't undo all the hard work you've done. Hang in there!

PS: There's nothing that says you have to do this another 4 months. Just be sure that it's the right decision to stop. Consider it another line in the sand.

Sorry to hear that stretch, you'll be ok though.

Having one of those evenings as well, must be contagious?

How about we both do what Andy advised---don't undo all the hard work already done.

Thanks guys. She is sitting over there and lovely. Just need a hug.

....um, then go give her a hug, then. Might help.

Stretch, as things settle in, this route might close off to you.

Whatever it is she is doing, at this point she is ignoring your pain and anger and still doing some foggy-style thinking and acting.

Once that clears, she is going to start reading your downs, and it is going to be a good idea then to have a strategy to be O&H with your FWW and avoid AO/DJ/SD at all costs.

It's difficult as h(*&, I know. I still haven't figured it out.

But, trust me, if you are pushing her for honesty, your lack of honesty will be something to piss her off.


So, reflect on that; how can I effectively communicate without resulting to Love Busters? When the subject of my low is something we no longer talk about?

Chin up! It's a marathon!

someone correct me if I'm wrong, but plan A doesn't mean swallowing things you are angry about, it just means avoiding presenting them in LB way.

Stretch, no one is ever going to be the perfect husband. Don't be so hard on yourself. SHe might even be picking on you BECAUSE you did so well. My wife has been known to do that.

No hug. Her body language in bed was like, leave me alone. Maybe not in a mean way. I am learning she just needs to shut down. Being responsible for giving hubby affection late and end of day is just too much for a tired mom.

I just wanted one relaxed, energizing hug and a kiss goodnight. I like to hold her hand or place a hand on her back while we fall asleep. But right now I think she sees it as one more responsibilty for busy mom at end of day. Hubby's need for affection (my top EN) or Hubby's possessive or need to go to bed thinking its all gonna be all right. Security?

Ok. I am placing thoughts in her head. And I should follow HHH advice to give honesty about my low.

Good point, HHH. It is pretty hard to do, especially when you're in a lousy mood to begin with. Catch-22 maybe?

We did talk this morning. She was distant but I asked what was on her mind.

Her: "I know you want my affection. But I can't always be there to comfort you with affection. I choose when I want to cuddle, hug, or kiss."
Me: "I want to know what's on your mind actually. I want you to share and not be closed off. And yes... a hug and a kiss goodnight means a lot to me."
Her: "Ten years ago I remember you telling me, 'I am not like one of your girlfriends, I can't do all these feelings and stuff.'"
Me: "I am so sorry."
Her: "I know you are sorry, but I can't turn it on easily now. I know you want a different realationship now but I can't just turn it on after blocking you for ten years. And I know that the rejection really hurts you right now."
Me: "You are fighting this so hard, fighting the relationship, pushing me away. I think you are afraid of what happens when we get to recovery. You will then face all the pain, remorse and guilt for the A. And also, you will have to let go of me being the excuse for all unhappiness, low self-esteem and depression."
Me again: "That's as much tough stuff as I am going to say. I am going back to jus

We did talk this morning. She was distant but I asked what was on her mind.

Her: "I know you want my affection. But I can't always be there to comfort you with affection. I choose when I want to cuddle, hug, or kiss."
Me: "I want to know what's on your mind actually. I want you to share and not be closed off. And yes... a hug and a kiss goodnight means a lot to me."
Her: "Ten years ago I remember you telling me, 'I am not like one of your girlfriends, I can't do all these feelings and stuff.'"
Me: "I am so sorry."
Her: "I know you are sorry, but I can't turn it on easily now. I know you want a different realationship now but I can't just turn it on after blocking you for ten years. And I know that the rejection really hurts you right now."
Me: "You are fighting this so hard, fighting the relationship, pushing me away. I think you are afraid of what happens when we get to recovery. You will then face all the pain, remorse and guilt for the A. And also, you will have to let go of me being the excuse for all unhappiness, low self-esteem and depression."
Me again: "That's as much tough stuff as I am going to say. I a

Did your post get cut off?

Wow, sounds just like a conversation me and my wife had the other day. It sounds like she really opened up to you and understands how it is affecting you. But (I know) getting her to actually stop the hurtful behavior is the hard part.

Several times my wife would say "I just don't want to keep hurting you" and I'd say, "Well just stop it then! It's like someone shooting me repeatedly in the foot and apologizing every time they pull the trigger. After a while, it gets kind of old."

In the last sentence of your conversation--"You are fighting this so hard..." How did she react to that? Believe me, I understand your frustration, but would guess that came across as a LB for her (DJ?) or that you were trying to educate her.

Did she shut down after that?

Maybe rephrase it to "I feel like you're pushing me away and I don't understand why. Could you help me with that?"

For me, it's allowing myself to be vulnerable again with my wife that is proving difficult.

Stretch and NW8900 - the very fact that you can have these types of conversations with your WWs should give you some hope. I understand there's also a lot of risk there too, but it sounds like there's an honest connection of some kind.

NW8900 -
I think it did come across as a LB. We both do that a lot. ie. trying to educate the other one. I get a ton of that incoming fire and so does she. And I am less careful and thought out with my words than her.
Hers have the added LB of angry outbursts sometimes.

Dangit, I knew I stepped too far. But I retyped the whole conversation and I am hoping to go back and review it with her if she'll let us.

We are having good conversations. Dealing with it the best we can. Its hard. Lots of other things going on in our lives. Funerals. Mother with pneumonia Sat night (very, very intense and scary) But we are here together for each other and our children and extended family. I hope that really means something to her. It means a lot to me.

No, I cannot "educate" her. So much of what I read makes so much sense. i just want her to read it and understand it too. But that's DJ education, isn't it?

Yeah, it's quite the catch-22 sometimes. Our counselor told us that we (my wife and I) were the most insidious people he had seen in a long time. We don't yell or shout, but quietly take little jabs at each other and know just what to say and how to say it.

By all means, revisit the conversation with your wife--she still remembers it, I guarantee you.

Be empathetic, ask her if your last comments made it sound as though you were trying to educate her and make her feel like she couldn't form a thought or opinion for herself. Apologize if it did.

You might add that you appreciated her telling you that she sees that she hurt you. Ask if her saying that was something she was hesistant to do...not knowing what your reaction would be.

For instance, my wife usually hesitates telling me things that will hurt because I tend to then try to overanalyize, educate her, critique, respond and defend myself. This causes her to shut down, to quit talking because I'm not listening, which further aggravates the situation because I then think "WTF, she started all this and now isn't talking or listening to what I have to say? Am I talking to myself, it's disrespectful"

Put yourself in her shoes, see how you would feel, and then tell her what you think you'd feel. Ask if that's what she is feeling.

Food for thought, maybe some of that will be of use

Well, just say "Here's what I've read and here's what this doctor says about ____. I think he means this ____. What do you think?"

Then you've presented the info, given your opinion and asked hers without trying to put words into her mouth.

Stretch,
I have been a SAHM to 4 beautiful children for almost 18 years. I can tell you it isn't for every body. You do have times were you feel unappreciated and times where you feel like you do the same thing over and over. I used to tell my WH that he gets atta boys from his co-workers, he gets a pay check, he gets reviews. You know, a pat on the back for a job well done. I get to clean the kitchen only to have it messed up in an hour. And don't get me started on clogged toilets!

The best gift I ever got from my now WH was a review of sorts. It was incredibly thoughtful. He had listed attributes and gave me a score of 1-5. He wrote well thought out comments for each. Here are the categories.
Communication
Love
Devotion
Compassion
understanding
non-judging
work ethic
Then results and summary.
As you can tell I still have it and treasure it. Do you think your wife would like something like that. Something in writing that expresses exactly what she does and how you view it? Not just a "the house looks great" general comment?

Maybe I should make a copy and send it to my now WH.

Ick! Like I said, I have been a SAHM for almost 18 years and I didn't have an affair. No excuses, period.

Frustrated so often like I don't have a chance.

She picks apart every action and interaction throughout the week. I need to vent because I don't feel I get credit for doing anything. I am jumping through hoops now. Whatever she says I just do it without any questions. I raised some doubt on Sunday morning, just asked, "Well I don't want to do that and I think neither do the kids." And she said, "It swhat I want you to do." So I did. But because I raised a doubt and asked to make sure its a big deal. She is so proud of herself for sticking up. She should just ask me to do something and I should never disagree.

Am I being a doormat? Probably.

I have a stockpile now of things throughout the week that make me sad, angry, frustrated. Where can I find my voice. Heck, we can't even go back and deal with the Affair.

Then stop and walk away for a little while.

She's managed to twist it back on you and let me tell you - she won't stop.

Sacrifice, doing things you hate for the benefit of your spouse - even at this time - is not good. You are modeling a behavior that you can't continue indefinitely.

Knock it off.

I agree how does this help in the long run.......time for a sit down and explain what you told us how this makes you feel. Change is a good thing, Open Honest converstaions are a way to fix the things we need to.........tell her you want a marriage that is where the two of you are happy.......ask her why she doesn't want this......

Stretch,

You are doing great. Coming here to vent is a good thing. I think I know sort of what your wife is thinking. For many years I put all my needs on the back burner and sacrificed for my husband. When I did this awful thing, it is my nature to once again put all my needs on the back burner (I deserve it right?) It is hard for me to NOT sacrifice and I am actively trying to pay attention to what I am feeling. I am afraid that sometimes I overcompensate and state my stance too forcefully so that he is afraid to contradict me. I acknowledge this and try to encourage him to stand up for himself. It is a delicate balance. I wish he would come her to vent so someone else could tell him what to do. It sounds ridiculous for me to tell him how to stand up to me.

Whatever you do, don't wait till you get mad and blow up. Tell her how you are feeling now. I know that is hard because you don't want to bring it up when things are going well, and you don't want to bring it up when you are angry for fear you will LB so when the heck to you do it?

I've found e-mails and letters work well so that I can incorporate good things along with my concerns.

I really admire how hard you are working.

Stretch, what you're feeling is normal. Sooner or later, the pendulum was going to swing the other way, and you were going to stop and think "Wait a sec--I worked my tail off for THIS?!?! THIS is the marriage I fought tooth and nail for??!" and you might also be thinking of a couple juicy names to call WW.

Don't do the name calling. Trust me on that one. The AOs or DJs won't do any good.

But what you're feeling IS normal... I went through the same thing, and still do... it's hit a point where your WW has come back to you enough that your daily interactions don't have to focus SO MUCH on the A, but now you're seeing that all the pre-A issues are STILL THERE.

I'm pretty sure this is why Harley says the biggest threat to recovery is the BS.

Taking a step back is good, and breathing. Being a doormat won't help, though I definitely know it's tough to find the balance between making your W happy and being a doormat. You are in full MB mode, and she's not there yet. She isn't using POJA, and probably doesn't even like full O&H.

But being O&H about what you're feeling is really the only option. She might not want to hear it. She might not respond well. But if you stay calm and tell her how actions make you feel(without bring up the A!!!!!) you can stand up for yourself (which makes you more attractive, this is plan A-ing) without Love Busting, and make it clear you're not going to put up with being treated rudely or harshly.

Unfortunately, part of this process is also you realizing that the W in front of you, might not be a W you want to deal with for the rest of your life. If you live in fear and constantly try to please her, as others have said you WILL grow to resent her...more after the A than you ever would have prior to it. She's going to be nasty to you AND she had an EA??! Why should you have to put up with that??! But by being O&H, and not LBing, you can give her time to come out of the fog, and making it clear you deserve to be treated like the wonderful H you are, and simply can't stay in a loveless M where you're not treated that way.

The journey is just beginning, and I'm only a few weeks ahead of you on the trail...typing this stuff out helps me in my own journey, too, so thank you. Hang in there.

Good advice everyone. I will work on it.

I've got to stand up for myself and be honest about how I feel. With no LB's. I will say this in the next couple days and again in MC on Friday. Again, no LB. No DJ. Just stating how I feel in an O&H way.

I feel like a doormat. I feel like I am hopping to her demands. I am frustrated that I cannot sem to please her. I am specific moments when I really felt hurt in the last week. (difficult family funeral plus MIL in hospital and all...)

I am frustrated and I need some advice, some coaching.

She is opening the door again to try and do some work. She looked at my letter where I wrote down our conversation last week, we are going to MC today, she has read several chapters of LB book and said, "I am not looking at it as search and destroy my husband, I am reading it looking to honestly identify where I have committed LB's."

Okay, we are starting to work. But its starting really slow. She is still not invested in a specific plan. But okay, we are together and going to go places in our work.

So here is where I need help. I want to work on me:

How do I convey my feeling, be honest, not be plan doormat, and move forward and yet avoid DJ LB? How can we leave a tough conversation (about the A, about anger, about LB's etc) and feel good about sharing, feel like we want more? You see, that's the goal (and I told her my feeling on this) the goal, my feeling is that I want her to end a dialogue with me and feel: "I want more dialogue with him. Even the yucky stuff, I feel better, can't wait to talk to DH again." That's romantic love, right?

I have to get stuff off my chest, so please try to look at these and help me edit my words please:

"I feel you resisting, fighting coming back to the M" (common WW fog behavior)

"I try to deposit Love Units with specific acts: examples - FC - activities with kids I loved and enjoyed, DS - eagerly taking on dishes, laundry, cooking, CO - new conversation skills / listening.. AD - admiring words for you.... but I get no response. I feel ignored. I feel its not depositing units."

"You seem to want to use your friends and therapist as a place to 'vent'. With all the exagerration, all the mis-remembered words and projection of my thoughts or feelings that weren't true that are typical in venting moments. Do you stop to say, "Is my venting story accurate? Did I already share this with him before venting to someone else? If not, how can I expect him to fix this with me? Are they just validating my anger or helping me work on me?"

"We need to deal with the Affair at some point. When do we talk amends, share my pain, affair proof the marriage."

"I didn't feel good the other day when you XY or Z. I cannot just hold it and move on. It will come out passive aggressive later. May I have one minute to tell you the things you said or did within the past few days that hurt? I cannot just hold them in. I want to share those instances without DJ LB. I am sorry if it comes out that way."

I am not a vet so my 2 cents is probably worth about half that.
I will give it to you anyway and you can do what you want with it.

I understand you not wanting to be a doormat and I sure wouldn't want one.

Your first two quotes to me come across as a bit clingy. She probably is resisting coming back to the marriage. That will stop as she defogs. As to the things you are doing, I would advise NOT pointing them out to her. You should be doing those things because they are the right things to do with no expectations. If she feels you are doing them into manipulating her into some sort of reaction it won't go over well. That being said, when she does compliment you or affirm something, be sure to point out that that makes you feel good so she knows you are aware.

My BH has made a habit of sending me e-mails each day calling me beautiful. I replied back but never really thanked him for the compliment. One time I guess I did and he mentioned how he liked that they made me happy so now I do it more often.

I didn't have any problems with your other issues. Although be careful not to DJ about her "venting". If she does bring issues to you, thank her for being honest and THIS IS CRUCIAL...don't love bust no matter how idiotic she sounds. She needs to know she can talk to you or she won't.

You are doing great but you can't rush this. Try to show her the way to go rather than TELL her. Educating her would be a LB.

Stretch - You're doing fine. A little diversion for you; during our last MC session I said this about the OM, "I don't beat up on AARP members." He's 52 and that was probably a LB for my WW. Oh well, I couldn't help myself. I'm not perfect 100% of the time.

LOL, bet that got you a dirty look!

NW8900 - I think I saw her jaw drop. It was basically the same spiel, when you're a bigger guy you can't win. She asked me if I was going to beat OM up. That bit, in the last post, was my opening line, along with the fact that he was shorter and stockier. I told her I wouldn't do it, because it would ruin my chances of having primary custody of DS and it wouldn't solve anything. It was an interesting exchange from my perspective.

Hey Stretch, I guess I'll take a stab at it but it's kind of like the blind leading the blind. Hey, at least I'm honest


I don't know how you'd ever say that without it being a DJ or something. I've toyed with that as well with my wife. If you're kind of down and having one of those days, and if you think you will be safe sharing that with your wife, you might just say "I'm kind of down, just feel like we've been a little distant lately. Have you thought that as well?"

Then you've asked if she's feeling a certain way rather than made a statement that puts her on the defensive and forces her to either prove or disprove your thinking.

She may honestly not think that she's resisting or being slow. In my case, my wife says I over analyze things and assume that she's thinking things that she really isn't. I guess the innate suspicion and desire to get things moving faster just comes with being a BS.


Yeah, she's going to think you're trying to manipulate her even though I completely get where you're coming from. Try the comment about feeling distant or something. Describe it as something that you feel yourself, not something that you think she is feeling or thinking (DJ). In theory, she'd respond with how she is feeling and you could then see what the story is.

It is tough, though, but I think you (we?) have to portray that we're doing these things because we WANT to and not because we're trying to get brownie points.


I'd leave this question to a time when you are both with a counselor. It's too tricky to handle by yourselves, and you could use a referee. Again, just say what you're feeling, not what you think she is feeling. "Hey, I feel sometimes that I've been misrepresented to your friends..."

If it's just a matter of her talking to her friends about things instead of you, well, then start working on conversation and just listening without commenting. She may feel that you are trying to educate her or fix the problem when she only wants someone to listen to her. But when you're the subject of the complaint, it is hard to listen without commenting or immediately defending yourself.

A good counselor can help with that but, in the mean time, when she is telling you something difficult just sit quietly, hear what she says, tell her what you think she said and thank her for telling you that.


Do you feel safe telling her how she hurt you? A serious question, because I'm still not 100% able to trust my wife with my thoughts. This is probably another topic better suited for a safe environment like a counselor's office. You both probably have a lot of raw emotions just waiting under the surface, and it wouldn't take much to get into a real argument if you're not careful. The counselor can reign you guys in when you start to escalate the situation by trying to defend yourselves during hot topics such as those.


That last part, "I'm sorry if it comes out that way" is sort of like saying "I don't want to hurt you but am going to anyways and want to apologize in advance." Try not to presume how she is going to interpret something. Instead, ask how she received what you just said.

Keep it up, stretch! It sounds like your wife is slowly getting back on the path and I'll bet you'll start seeing changes soon.

I cannot even fathom why she'd have asked you that, but your response was priceless. I wish I could think on my toes like that...

NW8900 - My sense of humor goes to dry/sarcastic, that's why that one was like shooting fish in a barrel. She gave me the opening and I took it. I just couldn't help myself. I knew it was wrong as I was saying it, but I just couldn't stop. LOL. Still brings a smile to my face. The topic changed immediately thereafter.

Maybe that's why I laughed when I read that--I, too, tend to lean toward sarcasm and sometimes you just can't help but take a jab at someone that is doing such a damn good job at ticking you off. It may be wrong, but it sure feels right sometimes!

Normally, though, I hold my tongue in questionable situations. I kind of think that when you're in doubt about what to say you should stay quiet and, most of the time, will come out ahead. Too many people shoot their mouths off with the first thing that comes to mind and then get in trouble for it.

Sorry, stretch, for the threadjack.

Stretch,
How did your Friday MC session go? Hopefully you'll tell us you and she had a major breakthrough and spent the last 16 hours in UA and SF, so you were too busy to update us! But I do expect that you made some progress on her issues.

Are things moving forward?

You guys are so awesome. So much fantastic advice, I need time to process all of it.

Friday's MC was productive. Northwoods 8900, you should know that I emailed some of your advice to MC (the other day you evaluated my conversation with WW.) And MC said, "That was good advice. I am impressed."

Wow. Good for wife to hear that endorsement from MC. We both like him a lot and she thinks he is totally coming down on her side sometimes (I don't think she hears some of the harsh things he says to her.) But anyway, great for her to hear him say these positive things about my forum friends. W is coming around on the discussion forum. Her and her friends haven't seen it, so they imagine a bunch of lunatics. But there are tons of people here with better knowledge and advice than most run of the mill MC's or your friends and acquantences who (while they mean well and love you deeply) just don't have experience or haven't read anything to know how to help a couple during this traumatic life event.

Keys from Friday MC:
Our non-verbal communication is not working. So when she needed comforting after seeing her mom at the hospital, and I was there for a hug, she was thinking : (Oh boy, now he wants a hug to comfort him again.") While I was thinking : "Seeing your mom in the hospital was scary. Let me comfort you." So I just need to use specific words right now. Even when I use specific words, she might hear something different. So I need to use fewer words.

We talked about what a romantic intimate relationship can look like someday. One where we always want to share.

I did lay it out there.... plain and simple... I believe the M problems are very much at the feet of neglectful hubby. I really do. And I am in -- ALL IN and working hard now! I am working on me, getting help. Have been for months and months prior to D-Day.
BUT..... I just have this bad feeling that W is still focusing her work with her therapist and with her friends on me. For a long time, she got nothing from me, so it was understandable. She needed help to get through to me. Well, she is through to me now. We are working, reading, writing, we have a MC for us together. I am getting my own help.
So now.... is W working on herself? Or still focused on what she can do to change hubby? When she tells me what she is working on in therapy it seems to be things like:
"Defending my boundaries around you."
"Learning to speak up for myself and asking for and getting what I want."
"Taking care of myself."
"Understanding how exhausting it is to deal with hubby's personality disorders."

Oh well, there is a crack in her armour now too to be totally honest. She admits to making a real effort to focus on herself. She is reading LB book and thinking about herself.

We were affectionate this weekend. We had some UA. (I am a gentleman now so you won't hear about any SF. That's our private stuff.)

I have so much to read from all your advice. I need practice on losing DJ LB's. I did tell her about things XYZ last weekend that hurt. I got some defensive reaction. I was told how I was wrong. She negotiated and explained. But I just let them out there to be true to myself and listened to her response. Admitted that the responses hurt. And I will review your advice my friends and use better language next time.

I was also upset because there were a couple things that made her mad last weekend and rather then discuss with me, she vented with her counselor first. Well... IMO she can't complain if she never tried to deal with me directly first. I did say that.

but I have to be careful. She loves her therapist and her friends. I can't push it. I know that through this process she will work on herself and lose the negative filter (its hubby making me depressed) or (this new hubby is a smokecreen, manipulation I cannot believe.)

So back to myself. I have to practice, practice and become much more enjoyable to talk to, share with and be intimate with. I am overwhelmed by everyone's advice.

Glad to hear that the session was productive, stretch.

Your comment about the hospital and giving your wife a hug kind of made me laugh--my wife and I do the same kind of thing, each of us misinterpreting what the other is saying/doing/thinking. Uggghhhhh, it's like learning a new language or something!

But, for us, at least, it was the realization that our "old" ways of doing things just weren't going to work any longer. We're working on getting to where we will ask the other person for clarification if something upsets us.

In the past, if I got ticked/upset/sad/mad/whatever, I would silently stew over it and just resent the hell out of my wife for whatever offense I thought she had committed. She would do the same when the roles were reversed and neither one of us would know that the other was even mad or upset. The upset spouse just thought the other was feeling just fine and completely ignoring our feelings out of spite. We were that good at hiding our emotions. Completely nuts.

Typically, we'd find that whatever offense we perceived was actually not deliberately done and was really a miscommunication. Or, was really trivial in the scheme of things and, had we talked it over, was not worth the resulting discord. But, by the time we actually worked it out, (days, weeks, months or years later), the damage had been done.

It's such a change of habit for both of us, learning how to communicate complaints with each other but not quite feeling safe enough to do so without getting a raised or defensive voice in response. We both want to find safe harbor with the other, but are still kind of gun shy. But now that we know the pattern of behavior that we used to do, we find that we can sometimes laugh and say "Uh oh, here we go again, let's figure this out before we get on that cycle again". Sometimes just throwing that out there and flagging the elephant in the room, and hoping that your wife feels the same way, breaks the ice and leads to a good resolution.

So, once your wife sees you as a safe-harbor, a trusting person to talk to, I imagine she'll rely less and less on her friends for discussions about you and your marriage. If you're like me, that's going to be a struggle sometimes--learning how to take criticism that you believe to be wholly unfounded and patently false without immediately going all out trying to prove that you're right and that your wife is wrong.

Empathize, or think twice before you speak, I guess. Try not saying anything at all at first, try to see it from her viewpoint and if, from that perspective, you would have really blamed her for taking offense to whatever you did. Odds are, she misinterpreted something you said or did and, based on that interpretation, her reaction wasn't unfounded and you would have thought the same thing had the roles been reversed. Tell her what you think she said and that (if applicable) you would have thought the same thing if you were her. Apologize if you screwed up and then try to explain your point of view without DJ's.

Of course, learning Swahili may be a little easier, but we're pulling for you, stretch! It really sounds like you guys are getting on track.

You got that right. This forum has saved my butt and completely changed me for the better. And, before, I really wasn't the type to open my life up on the internet. Having the support of complete strangers is very humbling and knowing that you aren't the only one going through this means a whole lot.

In the past, when she brought a complaint to you, how did you react? Defensively? Anger? Dismissive? Patronizing? Maybe, over time, she became like Pavlov's dog, and just quit coming to you first because she thought it got her nowhere. Probably a hard habit for her to unlearn.

Why don't you ask her that? Be careful, though, you may not like what you hear. Use it as an opportunity to be someone she can talk to without getting an adverse reaction. If you're guilty-as-charged, just be humble and thank her for sharing.

With some honest introspection to see where you could have done things differently, I'm sure Stretch version 2.0 will turn this around.

NW - you seem to be a very wise husband.
Do you have a thread?
How did you make it from D-Day to Exposure day for seven months!!??
Are you also dealing only with an EA?
I wish I had your wisdom when I was 33 and we had two little children. Now I am 40 and we have 4 children. But my wife was unhappy for the past ten years easily. We kept busy with relocations and with new babies. Something for her to fall in love with. But when she turned 40 it all came crashing down on her ... HARD!

Hey stretch, thanks for the compliment--though I certainly don't feel that way most of the time!

I have a thread, kind of let it slide for a while but here it is in all its tedious glory:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2408627

My wife swears it was just an EA, and I haven't seen anything that would prove otherwise, but you know how those nagging doubts can creep in.

I haven't done well at all with letting so much time pass between D-Day and exposure. I didn't really follow a plan, just kind of hoped that my wife would do the right thing. All the while, she was "trying" to work on the marriage but continued to work with OM. She was so careful with covering her tracks, that I only found a couple of emails and one text between them.

I wish I had known now what I didn't know when we married at 23. So much wasted time, you know? My wife, too, says she's been unhappy for a long time--I would guess since 2008 but she sometimes acts like it goes back to 1996 when we started dating. Who knows how much of that is fog and revisionist history, though. After our first child in 2005 and a second in 2008, we just kind of moved from being husband/wife to co-habitating parents and forgot about taking care of the marriage.

You know how it goes. I'm looking forward to getting this back on track and just wish my wife would hurry the hell up sometimes! But, I've been doing this for, what, nine months now and she's only been on board for a few months now.

How much do you love her? Is it deep? Do you desire more of her? Do you learn fascinating things about her every day? Do you love listening to her? Is developing conversation skills exciting? Does she look more beautiful to you over time?

I've got to believe that I am depositing a lot of love units. I bet you are too. You seem very good at this. I wonder if there is some common feeling among people who married young and started the baby train. You just lose yourself in your twenties when work and family start to take over. Having fun becomes harder to do. We both put RC down in the bottom five on our EN's but maybe we both miss that a lot. My wife shared that with me....("We haven't just had 'FUN' like we did when we were first dating.")

Its so slow. I get little bits of fog lifting... little cracks. With your help NW, frankly, and the help of others I am learning to slow myself down and watch those cracks open, and use care with my responses to get a little tiny bit more open.... and carefully, carefully take the tiny bit I am given, cherish it, consider my response, and watch a little more open up.

After fifteen years of M I suddenly fell madly in love with her all over again last fall. What was holding her back? I did not know. Well on Jan 30 D-Day I learned a big reason. But I am still madly in love with her.

NW, our wives left us. Not physically, but they quit the marriage. It took them a long time to make that decision. It was wrong. It was abusive. They struggle to understand themselves and admit remorse or guilt. But the fact is that they did leave us and its really hard for them to come back. The Love Units we are showering upon them don't all hit the mark. Many do NW. Many, many do. I understand how you feel. You want to rush it. You want her 100% on the MB plan and right with you... excited about this new marriage.

I am taking it slow. I found that the slower I take it, the more I get from her in return.

stretch-

that last sentence is soooo true. I am anxious about the slow progress of things, the lack of momentum, etc. WW is happier now than probably any point in the last couple of years.

But as soon as I push just a little too hard, its as if she is reminded of all the reasons she checked out. There is clearly a cadence and pace to recovery and it can go no faster than the more reluctant party can handle and there's no way to accelerate it. Sometimes it seems like I can only make progress when she is unaware of it. I guess its a dance - you have to move in unison with your partner to the rhythym of the music or else it becomes just a mess.

Stretch I am glad you are doing so well. I read on Andys thread shes given you total access. I just wanted to mention that does not mean you don't snoop. Keep the keylogger if you have one.

And yes I know it sucks having someone tell you that when you are starting recovery and feeling good.

That makes a lot of sense and, now that I've read that, describes exactly what I'm noticing.

Unfortunately for me and my wife, patience has never been one of my strong-suits. But you're right, the slower that I take it, the more that I get in return. And when I push the limits, her limits retreat. Sometimes I cannot believe that I'm having to think so hard on this--almost reminds me of being a teenager and playing those "does she like me"?" games of adolescence.

I feel like I'm too old for this (at 33, yeah, I know) but maybe I just never learned anything the first time around.

EDIT: Stretch, I owe you one. Just when I posted this, W comes in (she had been asleep) and asked if everything was ok. We had a really good day today--it isn't hot yet and the weather is great so we did a lot of things around the house, cleaned out the garage, ate a crap load of crawfish, kids played with neighbor's kids and stayed out of our hair (ha ha)..a nice relaxing day. But she knew something was off and sensed that my "perfect" ending would be SF. Shoot, if she only knew that the beginning of my "perfect" day starts with that, she'd be overwhelmed.

So I borrowed what you said, about letting things go slow based on her and she agreed 100% with that. Talked about my patience and then impatience and wanting to get this fixed right. She said she felt like everything was going great, but then I'd push a little bit and she'd back off and then felt sad thinking that I thought she didn't love me. I said that it felt that way, she said it was hardly that. [It's the romantic love thing, actually] Conversation was only for a minute or so, but she basically confirmed what you said and we had a good talk and both felt better.

I added the red to your text for emphasis. You know, we all need to quit being so much like each other--it's unoriginal!

You described my current position in life to a tee, f4L and stretch, and I hadn't been able to put my finger on it yet. Thanks for that, you made me understand things a little better!

Stretch, NW, F4L - I'm really happy for you guys. You have a shot at restoring and improving your marriage. Sounds like taking it slow is a theme. I'll have to remember that, if I ever reach your level. LOL. The only thing you have control over is yourself, so that's an area you can always work to improve and the results will (hopefully) last a lifetime.

I just wanted to give you guys my support and encouragement, as you've all done for me on my thread.

Thanks Andy.
Update... we have a tough couple of days ahead. Here is what happened:

We talked yesterday afternoon a little more about intimacy and SF. This is something I wanted more dialogue about. In MC session a few weeks ago he told me to open up more dialogue. I hadn't. It intimidates me because it seems my wife always reacts badly and I always feel wrong for being honest about my feelings. I love her, SF is very special to me, and she is the only one for me. I really, really feel deeply connected to her. Perhaps because she is the only woman I have ever loved / or made love to.

So my wife opened some dialogue yesterday. She shared she was upset about something I said two weeks ago after SF. (I was wrong. It was immature and cheap comment. Teasing. Not cool. I apologized. I need to learn from that immature mistake.)

Also, she talked more about how she views SF as less important that I. Honestly uses it as a tool or reward often for her hubby. We agreed that later last night we would have SF.

Now I still don't plan on a sure thing. I figure it may never happen and my mind is always prepared to go without. During the day, I started thinking about her words: "using it as a tool and reward..." and "During the EA I would give you more when I was guilty or felt you were suspicious. I was covering up" Yuck ! Then, I realized several times when she was particularly guilty she gave me a specific SF act. Yuck again !

So I lay there with four layers of PJ's on that night, sleeping pill and Xanax, hoping she would forget our plan for some SF. Well she jumped into bed ready to go. I panicked. Should I? Grit my teeth and perform even though I feel like crap? Should I? Say I changed my mind, I just don't feel comfortable... no explanation? Should I? Tell the truth?

I just told the truth. I feel uncomfortable because I realized that all these times when you felt specifically guilty you gave me special SF attention.

She walked away, slept on the couch (I understand--what I shared really hurt.) And she is staying at her mom's for a couple days....

Maybe I should have said, "I just don't feel comfortable at this moment and I want to wait." But I don't think my feelings were dishonest. I feel used and abused now. I feel like crap. Is it just too soon and too raw to open up certain dialogues? Why are they off limits? Are they off limits?

Harley says on an article, "go slow and take breaks." Well, we have a two day break now.

Sorry to hear that, Stretch, but I think you did the right thing. Otherwise, you'd start to resent her and "wonder" about things when SF was going on. Not healthy.

Her reaction is a little odd-- get her to cut her visit short and y'all talk about this. Running away from a problem isn't going to fix anything and I imagine that's just how she's always dealt with conflict? Tell her (in a laughing tone so it doesn't sound like criticism or a DJ) that avoiding problems didn't work for y'all before, and it isn't going to work now, so come on back to the house and let's go over this and get it straightened out.

Perhaps she was just shocked that you stood up for yourself and, but sleeping on the couch and running off to mom's means she wants you to back down and feel bad for daring to question her. I'd wager it's pure guilt and posturing, and she knows that what she did was wrong and doesn't know how to handle it now that you know.

So ask her about it. Tell her how you felt when she said that about SF. Ask her if she understands why you would feel that way.

As an aside, my W said the same thing about SF some time ago...that it was all just for me, etc. My view of history doesn't really jive with that. But it's probably the cruelest thing I've ever been told.

Part of the revisionist fog.

Indeed, I own that I didn't cherish her or respect her properly. Heard this story before? The husband neglects the wife except he still expects SF. And she resents that after many years.

Yeah that's about how it goes and, for me, it's such a Catch-22. I rely on SF to really get that connection and feel trust for my wife, both of which were taken away by the affair. But now that she's removed my most familiar way of regaining a connection/trust, it's a bit difficult for me to "feel" something for her again. Sure, her conversations and other things she does for me are nice, but they don't carry the same weight. A double-whammy and I wish I didn't feel like that.

Well, good luck with your wife. You going to talk tonight?

this stuff has to be discussed. I would want to know why she stalked off rather than talk about the fallout of her actions. Is it her expectation that you just go forward and never discuss these things?

Trying for a minute to see it from her point of view, maybe she is excited that SF is no longer an affair management tool and is feeling connected too, and it seems like you're "punishing" her? IDK, but she definitely needs to tell you what's going on.

Wouldn't you think that she would have apologized or something? Going to sleep on the couch is such a strange reaction, and I'm sure it was a major LB or trigger for stretch. I just figured she was mad that stretch dared get upset by her behavior, and worse, he called her on it, and so she put on a show to make him back down in fear. Dunno.

Hope you've worked it out by now, stretch.

We are texting.

And also, everyone, fyi there is a convenient reason for her to be gone... Mom got home from the hospital after 9 days in with pneumonia. She needs a lot of care at home. Its great that she is staying at mom's to care for her for a couple days. And it raises no suspicions with the kids. I would have POJA her staying with her mom anyway. But this has the added pain of, "needing a break."

So we've texted. I have the impression she feels like she over-reacted some and is trying to make ammends. But she was hurt. That's hurtful to hear. But my feelings are honest. There was an affair and I feel used and abused.

I sent a few emails and underlined some passages in her favorite Affair book (non-Harley... but we have those too.) The written word in emails is often a great way to communicate with pace and precision.

I might get an email with her thoughts later tonight. I hope she calmed down. But I hate feeling like I kicked her in the teeth. She may believe that I actually TRY to hurt her. I don't. That thought breaks my heart. Of course we sometimes hurt the ones we love and it pains us to see that. But the foggy WW thinks her BH is actually trying to hurt her!?!?!? That makes me cry. But there is ugliness after an affair, and the can has been kicked down the road a long time. We are not in recovery. We are in Plan A I believe until she puts her ring back on (4 1/2 more months is what I think I can stand.) But even in Plan A the BS should let their very real hurt be known (no LB, AO, DJ of course.)

Oh, I thought she had gone to her mother's just because she didn't want to be around you. Was she planning on doing that anyways, even if the whole SF-event hadn't happened?

Sounds like you're thinking clearly, no reason to not speak your mind out of fear or anything. Hopefully y'all can have a good conversation soon once the emotions of the moment die down a bit.

Has she said why she isn't wearing her ring? I guess we know the answer, was just wondering if she had ever vocalized it.

This is painful for sure. We've talked about it and it hurts. Add it to the list.

Well, she never loved her ring too much. Guess I picked out an annoying setting. It pulled out her hair. Fuzz from gloves got caught. Scratched the babies face. So she would take it off a lot over the years. To her it was becoming a symbol of how hard the marriage was to maintain. Well... summer of 2009 she started almost never wearing it. She took it off and just could not put it back on. Actually, I hardly noticed that for over a year. Probably really reinforced how clueless she thought I was.

I asked if she would like a new one last Christmas and she said, "I'm not ready yet." I just about died and she knew it. First time I really realized it was so intentional to remove the ring and she had ambivalence about the M. I thought I was doing great after three months of solid work and commitment. Clearly, those were some $LB deposits missing the mark because we were still months away from my D-Day.

So... its been one only two or three times she ever wore it since June of 09. Actually, the first night she went out and met OM she was drinking heavily with divorced girlfriend at her house, and took it off as a joke before going out and said, "I will help you pick up guys." Her friends I am told were like, "WTH is going on with you??" But they went out, got drunk, met OM.... she was ripe for an A. And the cheerleading divorced friend plus the other unfaithful married friend didn't help. Running in a pack those three ladies.

I have some trust issues. Imagine that ?!?!

She's not still hanging around them is she?

Well, there were many nights after D-Day and Exposure day where I couldn't sleep at all. Slept on the floor several times, slept with the TV on, heavily drugged myself, slept downstairs on the couch, vomitted, hyper-ventillated, lost 20 lbs...

I understand her emotional response. After just being confronted with, "When you felt really guilty, you would perform something for me..." She felt vulnerable lying there in bed with me. I defend her. And POJA the visit to mom's too.

Just worried about the formal reaction now. We will deal with it. Maybe (hopefully) we can get real and move into actually repairing from the A.

They are like family. Can't separate them. Known em since they were all 13 yr old girls. Can't make em choose. They are "aunts" and both are godmothers to our children.

So I need to repair with them as well. I think they know its coming someday. WW has adamantly defended them. The "other people" are a distraction right now. We are worrying about my friends / your friends way too much right now.

We'll repair and recover with them too. They are part of the package. But they will all need to make some life choices. And girlfriend weekends simply have to modify groundrules if my trust matters... if our M matters! BUT... that's in the future during recovery. Not right now. Too distracting.

Guess I should clarify that going to sleep on the couch seemed like a strange reaction given where you are today.

Oh yeah, I did the 25-lb diet, trying to sleep on the couch, started smoking again, all that fun stuff during the worst of it. My wife--and it pissed me off to no end-- was always sound asleep by 9:00 seemingly without a care in the world.

Good that you have a feel for her response, hopefully y'all can both get a feel for what the other was thinking. I guess this is just a hiccup that we all seem to run into from time to time. Fortunately, from what I hear :), they start happening less and less. Sure hope so!

In theory, you'll start doing such a good job with each others needs that the toxic friends will kind of fade into the background. Too, she'll likely start seeing them as negative influences.

About the time my wife started her affair, our neighbors wife started one on her own. We socialized with them a good bit when we first moved here, and she and WW were friends. So toxic friend leaves her husband and two kids (ages 4 and 2) and moves to an apartment. They divorce. WW keeps contacting toxic friend and disagrees when I say that the toxic friend is a lousy influence, was a lousy wife and is a lousy mother.

Fast forward eight months later to yesterday when we're outside eating crawfish and the neighbors boy, now 5, comes over to play with our son. They had a blast and we fed the neighbor boy while we ate. W commented that she felt sorry for him, that he'd had it rough and his mother was a big problem for him. Ahhhh, what was that, a bit or reason that I heard? It was so nice to hear!

Things kind of work out by themselves sometimes.

I also lost 20 lbs, began smoking (clean for a week now), needed sleeping pills (clean for 3 weeks now), had dizzy spells, my hands shook at times, had terrible cramps in my legs at night, etc. All part of the colorful pageant of life I suppose.

In some way you are correct. I've seen this advice on the forum a lot.

But these friends aren't going to leave our lives. They are family. Deeper than family. So the recovery involves them as well someday down the road.

These two BFF's are my family too. I said before, they are our kid's godmothers. So they will hopefully figure out their stuff and their own toxicity to each other. Some processing to do on their own as friends. Right now I sense a lot of justification, defensiveness... revisionism for the "wild and irrational 40yr old girls sharing their MLC's" Its all part of life and part of growth. Learning and healing.

If they put energy into painting the whole experience with rose colored glasses and half-truths... well, then they have to know that's hurtful and damaging to their BFF's BH and our M.

I did mention in a post a few weeks back that ironically I have seen my wife make a lot of new friends this past year. And share her EA story with a couple new friends. One in particular she was afraid of strict judgement (a solid catholic woman) and yet she shared with her anyway. She was afraid of being shamed. (seeking someone to shame her? I think she may have actually said that to me... looking for someone to shame her.) This new friend didn't respond for a while. Wife was afraid she drove her friend away with her bombsell. I said, "If she is a good catholic, a good christian, she will not run from you. She will be there for you. She knows none of us are without sin." And this new friend has come back around and is working with my wife. But, this new friend is not the type to give a free pass, total justification, endorsement, support. She will have some judgement and that's healthy if its in a proper christian way-- reminding her that our faith is all about Christ's forgiveness. But first, someone has to want to seek forgiveness and believe they did something wrong that needs forgiveness.

My pants don't fit. My belt is sinching up several inches. I am starting a tough workout routine to take advantage of the weight loss and get some endorphine replacement. Help me feel less depressed and take fewer meds.

Yeah, quite the ride isn't it?

My quit day is today, taking Chantix for the smoking. Might as well drop that habit...among others!

Ha ha, mine, too. I've got a drawer full of pants that are two sizes too big now.

Gonna work on my abs! Seriously. Starting work-out monster regime

....and get some endorphine replacement. Help me feel less depressed and take fewer meds.

Sorry, cannot resist the cross-thread reference.....

You do KNOW the best source of natural endorphin production and release, don't you?

(Don't answer - it's a rhetorical question!)

By the way, I am not without sin either. No way. I am guilty, guilty of many transgressions against my wife. Not an EA... but certainly I have guilt and remorse too. Seeking forgiveness for a lot of my actions.
So.... I just disliked how I sounded high and mighty back there.

Hey North watch that chantix, some wild side effects. My dad was nuts when he was on it.

But you should quit either way.
Sorry for TJ, hang in there stretch, you're doing good!

Yeah, it's giving me really weird dreams and I don't sleep very well--kind of like when my wife's affair was going on But, so far, it's not all that bad--much better than cold turkey.

Thanks for stoppin by Reynolds. Appreciate your support. By the way, do you have a thread?

I think we are doing good too.
A two day break is doing some good things. She misses the kids and they miss her. I hate that to sound manipulative. Its a miniature Plan B in a way. Its just time for heads to cool.

Good emails, good dialogue. I am getting big fat "ILY tons" on the phone and good vibes on the phone. We are still on for a marriage retreat this weekend through church!!

NW, the Admiration in her eyes can be a beautiful thing. So can the attention and enthusiasm during a great conversation. My wife and I have had some, just some, connection during conversation. She admits she just got lost and swept away in coversation with OM.

Anyway, my point is... I am getting some SF since exposure, but still missing the loving eyes, the dreamy looks, the admiration and silly joy in her face. It hurts. I have been staring at her so longingly. I am lost in those eyes. My soul hangs on her every word. But its not returned back to me. I feel so rejected and unloved. I am heartbroken. That's the only word for it. Heartbroken.

I would trade a dozen SF encounters for that silly, longing, sappy, happy face returning the twinkle, stare and misty eyes at me just once.

Stretch... did you WATCH that video I linked to you in your other thread?

There was a reason that I linked that - an experience I created with FWW earlier on in recovery that turned the tables when it comes to SF.

There is a particular line in that segment that tells you everything. She states "I began to see myself through his eyes."

While your love and passion for your W through your marriage may have been the motivator for your attraction to her, for your higher SF need... she likely hasn't seen it the same way.

That does not make you a bad husband, or her a poor wife - it just makes you normal and misguided.

So, I want you to think about this; what can you do to demonstrate, to help your W see herself through your eyes?

FWW and I spent a couple nights in a KOA Kabin in a little mountain town here with just us. One of those nights I spent just relishing her.

Sadly enough, it was a day or two after I finally got the truth.

Maybe it was the combination... but I'll tell you it was a real turning point.

What can you do to instill intimacy into SF again?

Hey Stretch, no sorry I don�t have a thread. I introduced my wife to the site, so I took it down. Too much detail in there about snooping � including a couple of pastes of her emails for self pity � dumb but I needed the vent. Anyway sorry you can�t read it.
I have been checking in less frequently, but still follow your thread, Andys, Stuck and TotalD. I found it was good for me to not be on here so much, it was turning into hours and hours. So I have been just catching up every couple of days. Seems like you are doing fine, and Andy still hanging on too.
It�s a long road, I do wish I exposed in September (If Melody reads this she�ll kill me) cause we would be further along. But its good, wife is doing most of the plan by instinct. I think we are going to be married in ten years. Its on both of us to make it best we can, and that�s all the shot anyone ever gets.

Sorry for the TJ. You�re getting good advice Stretch so I don�t post a lot. But I am still here and if I have something I think will help you will hear it for sure.

Thanks Reynolds. I will probably take my thread down like Andy did and start over. Its painful to go back and read my state of mind four weeks ago.

I am spending hours and hours here. But I really do need it right now.

HHH,

Yes, I did watch that video. I always thought the monologues had good material and insight -- I never cared for her delivery. Something about her face and smirk. But getting past that, I was totally interested in what she said.

"So, I want you to think about this; what can you do to demonstrate, to help your W see herself through your eyes?"

I want her to see herself through my eyes. That would improve self esteem and depression. I will keep working on that.

As for the specific SF EN -- we have two versions. Long and quick. The long version is no simple act. Its extrememly connected. Its within her and within me to make SF much more intimate. She does understand how I feel about it.

Just remember that even 5 minutes snuck away mid day is and can be a demonstration of love and care, as well as just some raw passion.

Stretch - Hope that things are going relatively well at your end! Just thought I'd check your thread. I've been in my own little world lately.

So she came home yesterday afternoon. She had a good time caring for her mom after she got home from the hospital with the pneumonia. There is a lot for her and brother and neighbors to do to get mom on the mend. But it sure does sound like a good healing mom/daughter time.

She was so pleasant and cheerful while away, and again when she got home yesterday afternoon. The children, of course, all vied for mom's attention for hours. I saw her feel overwhelmed... "Going from one zone of constant responsibility with her mom to another zone of constant responsibility with the kids." There is just so little time for yourself and your relationship in this phase of life. Clearly when life was overwhelming and hubby was getting drained by his job the SAHM was very confused by the frustration. And see what happened??

Anyway, an update about us and the ugly words Sunday night.

We were engaged and connected when she got home like I said. She was very tender towards me. Yesterday evening, after the kids were in bed and the TV was off, I did say I was sorry and apologized for my words. Her response surprised me: She said, �Hmm. I didn�t expect that. You have a right to feel bad as you continue to realize things, and realize things weren�t as they seemed.�
I told her I was validated for my feelings everywhere I turned the last two days. But also very chastised for the words I used and the way I treated her.

So�. We both were in a position of remorse I believe and we both wanted to acknowledge the other one�s hurt and move forward.

I also said my IC's lines, �We cannot change anything from the past. Anything I did in 14yrs of marriage, what you did all 2009, or even what I said Sunday night.�

We seemed to be very close yesterday, last night, and again this morning. Felt like good healing. I have to continue to take it slowly.

Really looking forward to the marriage retreat this weekend.

This morning we were hugging on the couch, having coffee. I was delaying going off to work for an hour. And I said.
"I wish you could see yourself through my eyes."
She held onto the hug a little longer.

Its very true. I don't think she sees herself like I see her.

Hey, sounds like things are on the up and up, glad to hear it.

Have you ever read markos's thread?

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2388046&page=14

It's nearly 100 pages long like Andy's was, but Markos and wife struggled with one hellacious conversation issue. A lot of it sounds like the stuff me and my wife did/do. I'm only on page 14 (where there's an interesting dialogue about a vacuum cleaner that sounded a lot like me), but there is a lot there by vets offering suggestions that could apply to just about anyone.

NW - are you saying I'm long winded?....LOL..?

stretch, I haven't posted to you before but I've been following your thread. I just had to say that if my H would hold me in his arms, and say that to me, I would absolutely melt. I hope the marriage retreat goes well this weekend - stay strong!

LOL--hardly! You've seen some of my posts--they fill the page sometimes. You just have a lot of "stuff" going on and have gotten a lot of feedback on your thread(s) which is a good thing!

North is probably the reason the server went down a couple weeks back:)

Ha Ha Haaaaaa...and here I was thinking Canadians didn't have a sense of humor

Got to have a sense of humour, its almost April and it was minus 12 celcius this morning. Come on spring!

Ugh, bet you're tired of that. Winter's been over for us for about a month now. Supposed to be 75 tomorrow (around 20-something Celsius I think). It was hot today, I had my shorts and flip-flops on, and probably looked a bit like a slob but that's ok

Funny how y'all add that "u" in your words-- favour, humour, etc.

Or maybe it's funny how we don't add it.

And so ends my random thought of the day

Reynolds, you have to translate from Canadian if you expect us to follow along. I know what you meant, but I think its only because I worked for a Canadian bank for many years.

Yeah funny guys eh? I was translating for you eh? Quit making fun hosers or we'll shut off the maple syrup pipeline. Your IHOPs will shut down in two days tops:)

Great...now I've got to go see what a hoser is.

In the meantime, hope things are going good up your way, Reynolds.