I think for the most part I am going crazy. My husband of 30 years had an EA, I think. He says not but hasn't spoken to her since August when I found out. He was text messaging and emailing her. He said that they were talking about her divorce, our marriage, etc. He was talking to her because my mom was sick, he was having trouble at work and she understood, you name it he was also talking to her the most in August when he says (and I thought) our marriage was great. I read and gave him the emotional needs list, he said we needed to put it in the past but I said we need to know why it happened in the first place. He now gets mad at me when I want to talk about it. He also has this lady in Minnesota who he is friends with. I asked him to stop all communication with her because she is a single women and it bothers me. At first he said he would do anything now he is stalling because he says she is a good recruiter and he may need her. An example was this morning, he calls from work all happy and asking how I am. I said fine and he always says then whats wrong, are we allright? I say ok but needs work. Now he gets mad and says stop trying to fix something that isnt broken. What? We have some great times together, we talk alot and he really trys hard but I cant just make this incredible pain go away. Maybe i am crazy, maybe they were just friends but he never told me about her and I would never have known if I hadnt looked at our phone bill and there she was....70 times one day alone. I noticed a pattern that there would be 2-3 calls to her and then i short call to me. Numerous text messages and he never texted me until after it ended. Calls to her when he was out of town 1st thing in the morning and last thing at night. I just dont know what to think anymore and I just never ever thought he would do thid to me. I feel so betrayed and I feel angry because he took away the sanctity of our marriage. He destroyed the fidelty we shared. I feel guilty for doubting him. He can be a real difficult person sometimes and so can I but never in my wildest dreams would I think this. There have been other times as well like when he went to Oregon for a new job and I visited. I found a text on the phone from a girl who he had taken out for dinner. That always bothered me but now I can see there is a pattern here. Will I ever feel better? I have made an appointment with a therapist for next week because I am tired of pretending I am happy. Am I wrong to need constant reaasurrance? Am I wrong to want to talk about it? Am I wrong to not want him talking with single women even if they are just friends? Why am I even having to deal with this it my age? He has had a really hard time at work and I understand that but I dont think that is ever an excuse to talk to other people about private matters. He said it was good to get someones elses opinion about issues and she even helped him to understand me better. THAT MAKES ME MAD> He talked about issues that I shared with him that bothered me about myself. I am starting to think this cant work and I am sick of acting happy when I am miserable. This is a big game that I play and I am so thankful when he leaves for the day and the pretending ends. I am literally so depressed that I cant to anything during the day but think about it.

gammies, he is probably a serial cheater and this has become a way of life for him. He continues to have affairs because there was never any recovery after his last affair. It was kept secret and there was no plan to affair proof the marriage.

In order to affair proof your marriage, he needs to NEVER have any discussions with members of the opposite sex. Apparently, he is not even professional enough to conduct business with females becuase he has affairs at work.

Since it sounds like he is another affair, I would STOP asking him about the affair and find out on your own. Hire a PI, or snoop on him on your own and then come back here when you get the goods. We can help you with next steps.



You should not pretend you are happy when you are being abused. Your husbands affair are cruel and abusive. OF COURSE YOU ARE UNHAPPY. Of course you don't trust him! He is untrustworthy. But you don't need a therapist to tell you that. You need to uncover your H's nefarious activities and bring it to a STOP. Once you do that, you will feel much better!

I would have this thread moved over to the Surviving an Affair forum [click notify and ask the mods] and then read the Spying 102 thread here

Can you afford a PI? If not, please think of ways he carries on his affair.. You could put flxispy on his phone and a GPS on his car, a voice activated recorder in his car.

I dont think I can do anything more then I am allready doing. I monitor his cell phone and the bills because they are both in my name. I have full access to the computer he uses at home and know how the check the browser and I do. I cant install anything on his computer at work because I am never alone with it and he works for a bank where they have their own systems and very high security. He is also the technology director so he would know anything that I do. The Minnesota women has been around for 3 years so it isn't a new thing. I see no evidence no evidence of theEA anywhere anymore. He gave me his old sim card which would have all text messages from the last 2 years and said to have it read he had nothing to hide. So I just dont know.He tells me where he is going when he will be home and he always does it

gammie, here is why you are not recovering. Please read this article carefully:

Requirements for Recovery from an Affair


Dear Dr. Harley,

I discovered my husband's affair in May. He was very repentant, ended it and has been working very hard on our marriage ever since. I was not familiar with Marriage Builders at the time and I just followed my instincts. I suppose we are in recovery.

But our communication skills are almost non-existent. We only talk about things that are "safe." My husband’s idea of dealing with his affair is to put it behind us. I need to talk about it to heal. I am still having nightmares and sleeping little. I know nothing about this woman, including her name. He has refused to give me the information because he feels it is over so what difference would it make now. He has agreed to counseling but has been dragging his feet.

Our communication skills are so poor that I can't even bring up his affair for fear of "rocking the boat." He will not read any books or discuss the reasons for his affair with me. I am terrified it will happen again.

We went for a few counseling sessions over a year ago (before affair, communication issues) and it was a disaster. It was so much psycho-babble that neither of us could stand it. Where should we go from here?

Please advise.

K. R.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Dear K. R.,

The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide.

I'll describe these two parts to you in a little more detail.

The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy.

This information is important for two reasons: (1) it creates accountability and transparency, making it essentially impossible for the unfaithful spouse to continue the affair or begin a new one unnoticed, and (2) it creates trust for the betrayed spouse, providing evidence that the affair is over and a new one is unlikely to take its place. The nightmares you experience are likely to continue until you have the facts that
will lead to your assurance that your husband can be trusted.

An analysis of the wayward spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them.

After the first step is completed, the second step is to create a romantic relationship between you and your husband using my 10 Basic Concepts here
as your guide. While your relationship may be improving, it won't lead to a romantic relationship because you are not being transparent toward each other. Unspoken issues in a marital relationship lead to a superficiality that ruins romance.

Your nightmares are only the tip of the iceberg. They are but a small reflection of the suffering you experienced when you discovered your husband's affair, and the fear you have that the suffering will be repeated. You have no assurance that the affair is over because you don't even know who the other woman is. You are being asked to trust your husband, who has already proven to be untrustworthy. For all you know, he could be working with her, or you could be going to the same church, or she could be
your neighbor. And since he won't discuss the details of how the affair took place, you have no assurance that another affair will not take its place.

Infidelity is not something that can be swept under the rug. While those who have affairs want to forget about it and move on, those who are betrayed must take very specific steps before they can fully recover. In your case, those steps have not been taken, and as a result, your fear persists. I will send you a complimentary copy of my book, "Surviving an Affair," if you send me your address. It will describe these two steps to you and provide you with a roadmap toward full recovery. But the path will require full disclosure of all details.

Best wishes,

Willard F. Harley, Jr.


http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2311122#Post2311122

You will never recover from this while he is continuing to do the things that led to the first EA you found out about.

I suggest you do some serious snooping and get the goods on the relationships with these women. Once you can prove an affair/s you are much better off and we can help you from there.

ML has some great snooping tools, Mel, can you post those for her? She needs a keylogger at minimium on their home computer and maybe a VAR in his car.

P.S. gammies ~ you are dealing with an affair/s here ~ click notify at the bottom of one of your posts and ask the mods to move this to the Survive An Affair (SAA) forum. You will get more help there.

P.P.S. you are NOT going crazy ~ your H is gaslighting you and making you FEEL crazy but you are not. Your gut response that something isn't right is dead on. Do not doubt yourself.

Hi Gammies, welcome to Marriage Builders.

I want to talk about a few things that you said:
No, you're not. Betrayed spouses who are being successfully gaslighted by their wayward spouse frequently feel that way, though. So if you feel you have reason to be suspicious about your H, AND you feel like you're going crazy, you can pretty much assume he's up to something.


Your H has NO BUSINESS discussing your marriage with another person, especially a woman.

You're kidding, right?


Don't throw away your money. You don't need a therapist to confirm that adultery makes for an unhappy spouse.
No, you're not wrong. Married men have no business having private friendships with other women.

It SHOULD make you mad! I would be livid if my H betrayed my privacy this way!

No, you're not going crazy, gammies. You need to do some serious snooping and find out who these women are.

Thank you for your answers...I ordered a sim card reader yesterday. I will have it by tomorrow. I found his old sim card that would include all of the text messages from the EA. I am so scared to see what is on it. I don't know what I will do. DO they really work? Has anyone used them?

By the way I wanted to let you all know the basic info about me. I am 52 and so is my WS. We have been married 30 years, together 37. We have 4 children 29, 28, 22 qnd 13 and none of them have any idea about their dad. I found out about the EA in August 2010 quite by accident looking for a phone number I had misplaced on my cell bill. Thats where I discovered numerous calls and texts to the OW. She use to work with my H but switched jobs in June 2010. I have read EVERY article available on this site and have copied the Emotional Needs list, did it myself and asked my husband to but he couldn't be bothered so I threw it away. Here I am again today just trying to get through the day when I should be cleaning the house and being productive. I am totally useless. I read anotherpost and the said they hate it when their heart hurts and that really explains it. I have stopped trying to talk to my H about it because he will say well thanks for ruining a good night!

Look at this ....




Have you read Harley's newsletter about complaining in Marriage?

You need to complain.

LINK to "We have a problem"

Read this.
Start complaining.

I do that...I ask him to please talk to me. It goes the same way everytime. I feel better for having talked to him and tell him how I am feeling but nothing ever gets resolved. Like the talking to his friend in Minnesota (single lady). He promised when and if she contacted him that we would write her an email or call her together and tell her he could not talk to her anymore. I did write the email and he said he liked it but he still hasn't sent it and that makes me soooo angry and I tell him this over and over but he does nothing because he doesn't want to do anything. The other night he said he was putting it off because I would see that he is only friends with this person and I would regret making him do this Really? Are you kidding me? I daily write down how I am feeling and I talk to him about it when I feel like I will explode mand can't deal with it anymore. I am nice about it but nothing ever gets resolved. Maybe its just me. I do complain...I feel like that is all I ever do. She isnt the OW that he had an EA this has been a friend of his for 3 years. I have even spoken to her

I can't go on like this anymore. I love my H with all of my heart but I hurt so bad and I feel like I am screaming in an empty room everyday. How do I believe him again? How do even believe what he says now when he doesn't follow through with this simple act? I can't stand this pain anymore. I had to go to the bar yesterday ( and I don't drink) to have a drink so I could stop the pain for at least an hour or so. Why was it better for awhile and now it is bad again? Is this normal? Do people go up and down like this?

Gammies,

I went back and looked at your first thread.

What happened with asking him for a poly? Again, it is very hard for me to believe that he had an 18 month EA. If he is still lying to you, that will prevent you two from recovery.

Also several posters saw red flags in your first thread about continued contact. A poly would be an opportunity for you to ask about continued contact.

Next, I see you have passwords to his account, but do you have a keylogger on your computer?

I asked him once if he would take a poly and he said of course he would. I do not have a keylogger on the computer.

Schedule it. You might be surprised by what happens. Waywards will frequently 'spill the beans' on their A's the night before.

Or they will suddenly refuse to do the poly the day before it's scheduled.

Either way, you'll know he wasn't being truthful.

Do you want a key logger on your PC? IF so .. I highly recommend www.desktopshark.com they have a great free product for key logging along with some other logging tools that you could get for fairly cheap if you were to consider buying something. The free keylogger they offer does not alarm ur antivirus.

Well the sim card reader should arrive today and that really scares me. I dont know if I want to stay if I read messages that indicate anything other then friendship. We'll see. He is so loving towards me and in his mind thinks we are ok. I just want to crawl out of my skin when he is around. How can people be so blind to not even see the pain their spouse is in? Anyways today is the day.

gammies...please, take a deep breath...we have ALL been where you are right now, we do understand.

We don't call this an Emotional Rollercoaster for nothing...the range of your emotions is completely normal.

Did you know that finding out about an spouse's affair is compared to being raped or even the death of a child? When I spoke to Dr. Harley on the phone he told me "MF, this is the worst thing you will ever go through...you can go through the rest of your life knowing that no situation will ever be this bad ~ you will have gone through the worst and made it."

Please, follow the plans here and we can help you save this M...mine has been saved and many others have been as well. But you need to follow a PLAN. Can you do that?

Yes I can follow a plan. Today I just need to take it i minute at a time. I need to not talk to my H today because it makes matters worse. He called from work this morning to say how much he loves me and how I was doing. I said I was ok but a little depressed and he asked why (which he allready knows the answer to) and I said you know why and then he got mad at me. Wow I just dont get it. Cheat on me and then get mad at me because I haven't gotten over it in 4 months.

That's a pretty powerful statement to remember.

Typical wayward response.

Having a plan helped me to feel better. I hope it feels better for you too.

Today you will get the SIM card, read it and then let us know what it says. Once you have the goods, we can help you come up with a plan.

While you are waiting for the SIM card, can you give us a list here of who you think would be good exposure targets? The best are:

~your children and your parents/family if they are still alive
~OW's husband, family
~workplace if they work together
~close friends
~mutual friends of your H and the OW

I can't remember if you told us...how did they meet?

I just checked with UPS the package wont be delivered until tomorrow. Grr. They met at work. She hasn't worked in the office since June 2010 and I found out about it in August after she had left. I think about the times I did things socially and she was there just looking at me....what a fool I was. She was going through a divorce and he said it made him feel good that she needed advise from him. I have no problem telling friends, even his family but I do have a problem telling my children. At this point I am having a hard time understanding telling them because I dont want them to think differently of their dad. He didn't cheat on them he cheated on me. Or is that thinking wrong?

Telling your children is crucial for a number of reasons:

1.) you don't want them thinking any of the M problems are their fault (children young and old alike will think this). They already "know" something is wrong.

2.) Never shield a person from the consequences of their bad choices. Your children SHOULD be upset with their father, that is a consequence of his affair.

3.) Seeing the horror and disgust in your children's faces when they know what a scumbag their dad is being is a nice fresh dose of reality. Your H probably has bizarre fantasies of your children "accepting" the OW and when it's very clear they won't he will get a nice wake-up call and re-think if his relationship with POSOW is worth sacrificing his relationship with his children.

These are just SOME of the reasons it's crucial to tell your children.

Yes, it is wrong because lying to your children about the source of tension in your home teaches them dishonesty and causes them confusion. YES he did cheat on them when he had an affair, your kids are very much affected by his affair. Affairs can destroy their security, so they are just as much as victim as you.

They are not made happy or secure by believing lies about their father. They need to know the truth and be encouraged to ask their father why he is doing this to their family. Why is he risking their family? They have a right and a need to know that.

Dr. Harley on telling the children:

here




here

here

If your husband wants to have a good relationship with his children, then it is HIS JOB, not your job, to make that happen. There is no way you can make that happen for him. There is no way you can undo the consequences of his actions or cover for what he has done. Trying to do so can absolutely destroy your spirit and your health.

If your husband wants to be honored by his children, then he probably needs to live in an honorable way. Honorable men don't commit adultery and betray their wives and children. It will be up to him, not you, to regain your children's respect IF he wants it and is willing to do the work.

It will not help your children at all to go out of your way to try to get them to honor a despicable man.

I hadn't thought of it that way. My Sim Card REader wont be here until Monday because of the winter storm. That will give me what I need to make some serious decisions in my life.

Update?

I got my sim card reader today...I have been so stressed about it. Downloaded the software and it doesn't work! PLEASE recommend a brand that does. I need this info desperately.

We also had a very long talk this weekend. I wrote down everything I feel and everything he has done to me. I told my daughter about it all. I need the info on that sim card.....I need to know the depth of the deception. I dont know why I just do.

Call the company and tell them it isn't working. Maybe they can walk you through it.

Installed it on a second computer....just doesnt work. Also Married Forever I have all copies of his cell phone bill because his phone is in my name. I know every phone call, every text message since it all began. There has been no contact via this means since the day I found out August 22 and I stood next to him when he called her and told her there would be no more contact with him ever again.

It's possible he gave you a different SIM card other than the actual one from his phone, a blank one.

It's also possible he has been using a different cell phone, one you do not know about.

Waywards are very sneaky and you have to look and think outside the box sometimes to keep up with them.

The same thing happened to me. After they are caught they just get sneakier.

You already know in your gut that something isn't right and that just because it isn't showing up on your cell bill doesn't mean that NC is in place.

Can you hire a PI? Can you put a VAR in his car? Can you get access to his work computer? What about a keylogger?