Dec 2008, Mark1952 wrote the following post.
It is found deep in the archives.
I wanted to bring it back to the discussion.
So, I bring you Mark1952's thoughtful post about Plan A vs Plan FU.
Plan A or kick 'em to the curb?
There seems to be two schools of thought floating around right now on these forums in regard to how a betrayed husband should handle an affair by his wife as opposed to what a woman should do in response to an affair by her husband,
One line of reasoning seems to be saying that a man must confront his wife directly and demand that she end the affair and throw her out if she does not comply or he will look like a wimp.
The other says that a man should follow the Marriage Builders practice of attempting Plan A, follow it up with Plan B and only after some time has passed jumping to Plan D.
The first always works if you are willing to immediately kick your wayward wife to the curb, file for divorce and leave her in the dust if she doesn't stop the affair. It keeps the husband from having to deal with an actively wayward wife, quickly pushes the marriage into recovery or divorce and the state of limbo so many go through comes to a merciful and well defined end.
This often leads to a quick move into recovery for those whose marriage was actually pretty good before the affair and the wayward wife really wasn't looking to end the marriage and run off with the other man but merely having a little fun on the side as so many men have been prone to do for so many generations in some cultures. In these cases simply confronting the wayward wife and telling her that she has to decide often makes her decide at once to end the affair and try to fix the marriage.
Those who have recovered their marriage using this technique rightly believe that it can lead to recovery pretty quickly and so in their experience, demanding all that is needed from the wayward wife in order to recover the marriage seems like a proven method that leads to recovery. And it does, in a pretty good sized number of cases. But many men who used this method and had it turn out successful never appear at Marriage Builders because the affair ended, the wife made concessions and their lives have moved along with little fanfare.
One problem with those who don't come here and believe that recovery is an instant solution often never get to the real problems that led to the affair in the first place and a repeat is more likely. This is not the domain of betrayed husbands alone and many women find themselves on a second roller coaster years down the road.
The only problem with this method of demanding an end to the affair and laying out certain recovery steps in order to remain out of divorce court is that it usually does not lead to recovery of the marriage. The wayward wife who decides when confronted that she has made a horrible mistake and immediately sees the damage she has done and wishes to rectify it is in the minority rather than the majority.
Most often, a woman having an affair has already checked out of the marriage and has decided before she got very far down the road to adultery that she wants to get divorced from her husband, whether or not this new relationship with the affair partner works out. Now this is really just what we all call the fog of the affair talking in most cases, but the wayward wife believes it is true and has convinced herself that she would be seeking divorce even if the other man were not in the picture.
A man whose wife falls into this category and has maybe already moved out of the house, in some cases having already filed for divorce and yet he wishes to attempt to save his marriage is the one we most often see around here. Telling this type of wayward wife to either shape up or ship out usually ends in her living with the other man in a rented love shack while the husband tries to work visitation with his children into his busy schedule.
Plan A only brings the affair to an end and leads to recovery about 15% of the time. I know that doesn't sound like a very big number but considering that half of all marriages in this country end in divorce, it probably means that Plan A is saving some marriages just because it works some of the time.
But in the case where Plan A does not bring and end to the affair Plan B is what most around here would suggest as a next step. The purpose of Plan B is to basically stop the bleeding and wait until the affair burns out at which time it can be determined if there is enough left of the relationship to attempt recovery. Just so everyone understands, there usually is not enough left by then, but in the cases where there is, the two step Plan A followed by Plan B can lead to a recovered and rebuilt marriage.
Now some might not be able to stomach knowing that an affair is continuing and will be unwilling to attempt to win their wife back from another man. That is purely a matter of choice. But telling her to put up or shut up will only lead to a small number of recoveries and in most of those cases where it does not the men will not be here looking for help to save their marriages because they either bought the bovine excrement their wives fed them that the marriage was over and there was nothing they could do about it or they themselves could not handle having a wife that was sleeping with another man and decided to leave her behind and seek out a replacement (most often the case when he has not been exactly thrilled with the marriage for a while either.)
So Plan A is for those that want to save their marriage, or at least try to do so and when the affair has not come to an immediate end and remorse set in just by confronting a wayward wife. It does not save all marriages, is not for anyone who is a bit squeamish about swallowing their own pride and is not for everyone. But for a man, who wants to save his marriage, has not been able to break the affair by confronting his wife and can handle his tendency to be macho above all it can and does lead to success in about 15% of the cases it is applied to.
What is most often wrong with men who are in Plan A is that they are not really in Plan A at all. They are in Plan Beg, Plead, Kowtow, bend-over-and-take-it, lay down and let her walk all over you, Plan Doormat. They really have no PLAN and are just floundering around looking for the magic solution to their problem. There IS no magic!
These men most often believe the garbage they have been told by the wayward wife when she tells him she has been unhappy for years, that OM has nothing to do with her wanting to leave him, that there is nothing he can do to stop this from happening and all her friends and family seem to be on her side already. These guys come here and ask "what should I do"� and then do the exact opposite and come back wondering what the continuation of the affair means in the big scheme of things. "How do I make her stop this?" is the most common question, even when not asked directly. The answer is, you can not make her do anything. You have to make her WANT to stay married in order to have any hope for the marriage at all.
And for those that confrontation alone did not cause that to happen and yet still desire to save their marriage, Plan A is the next step. Not making her happy since that is not the purpose of Plan A, but giving her a reason to end the affair and try to recover the marriage. Properly done, Plan A does not make her happy, it makes her furious because it intrudes on the fantasy she is living in and brings the light of truth into the darkness of deception where the affair exists.
There is a huge difference between men and women when it comes to Plan A. But the difference is in how long they can actually do a decent job of it. A man who enters into Plan A knowing what it is and what it is not should be able to do it for about 6 weeks with little effort. Six months should be the maximum. Women can not do it for that long because most women are not as competitive to begin with. And that is what Plan A is, a competition to win your wife back from the fantasy she has run after. If you can not stomach that thought, then do not bother to try, because it will make you sick every day of your life from now till the day you die.
But if you understand and agree to do it as an effort to save your marriage, it bridges the gap between confrontation and Plan FU. It is a step in a process that might not lead to recovery at all for the marriage, but will always lead to making the man stronger rather than weaker if it done like it is supposed to be since Plan A is about fixing yourself in hopes of saving your marriage.
The list of all the things a betrayed husband needs from his wayward wife to stay married to her including honesty, passwords to email, all of those things only apply to making the marriage better and more affair proof, fixing it. Unless you save the marriage to begin with there will be nothing to fix. And when telling her to stop the affair does not work and you are not ready to throw in the towel, that is when Plan A and maybe Plan B can do what they are intended to do, save the marriage so that it can be fixed.
Not everyone needs to do Plan A.
Not everyone CAN do Plan A.
Not everyone SHOULD do Plan A.
Not Many WILL do Plan A.
Not every Plan A leads to recovery.
Not doing anything while the affair rages on is NOT Plan A.
Plan A is a plan of action, not inaction!
If you find your wife is having an affair, I suggest that you confront her at once and tell her in no uncertain terms that she must end the affair and commit to making the marriage better than it was before.
If that does not make the affair end and you still want to try to save the marriage, for whatever reason, that is when I recommend Plan A.
And if that does not work and you STILL want to try some more, then it will be Plan B.
If you do not care or you do not want to Plan A or B, then I will support you in Plan D.
Properly done, Plan A does not make her happy, it makes her furious because it intrudes on the fantasy she is living in and brings the light of truth into the darkness of deception where the affair exists.
Your WW will NOT be happy with your Plan A.
Do NOT gauge your Plan A performance on HER moods.
Not everyone needs to do Plan A.
Not everyone CAN do Plan A.
Not everyone SHOULD do Plan A.
Not Many WILL do Plan A.
Not every Plan A leads to recovery.
Not doing anything while the affair rages on is NOT Plan A.
Plan A is a plan of action, not inaction!
Some (rare) WW will end their A on discovery.
Many will say they have and continue the A secretly. (GPS her car men, no matter what she says)
Should you Plan A your WW who is also an active addict?
Only if you do the most brief Plan A possible while you prepare for a very QUICK Plan B.
There is a huge difference between men and women when it comes to Plan A. But the difference is in how long they can actually do a decent job of it. A man who enters into Plan A knowing what it is and what it is not should be able to do it for about 6 weeks with little effort. Six months should be the maximum. Women can not do it for that long because most women are not as competitive to begin with. And that is what Plan A is, a competition to win your wife back from the fantasy she has run after. If you can not stomach that thought, then do not bother to try, because it will make you sick every day of your life from now till the day you die.
But if you understand and agree to do it as an effort to save your marriage, it bridges the gap between confrontation and Plan FU. It is a step in a process that might not lead to recovery at all for the marriage, but will always lead to making the man stronger rather than weaker if it done like it is supposed to be since Plan A is about fixing yourself in hopes of saving your marriage.
Plan A is about fixing YOURSELF in hopes of saving your marriage.
Taking YOUR honest inventory and acting on what your find.
Getting stronger.
Finding courage.
Showing self respect.
Losing old bad habits.
Getting healthy.
Honesty with yourself, and with your WW.
Willingness to share some intimate and difficult feelings with a WW who is totally selfish.
Developing a WAR PLAN and acting on it.
LINK to The Art Of War - Sun Tzu
thank you for this very timely post
thank you for this very timely post
You are welcome, mister alphabet.
Thanks. I need reminders. Plan A for five weeks for me. Not doing it perfectly but trying to get it right. I believe I can make six months. Discouraged sometimes. Gauging her moods is frustrating. This long post helps.
I wish I could share this wisdom with WW.
Fyi, there is no active affair. Only in her fantasy. But she did leave the marriage when the EA happened. She wanted PA badly but was rejected. She is more heartbroken by OM rejection than about losing me. Dealing with a lot of fog. I wish she could read some of the wisdom here.
Pepperband,
Why is the WW not happy with Plan A? Especially if she has said she wants a divorce (?fogbabble? but she is proceding down that path).
WoundedTiger
I will start my own thread here shortly.
One of the truest statements I read here was,
"He who cares the LEAST has all the power."
Plan A is about raising the level of care in the WS to the level of wanting to end the affair and get onboard with recovery.
Plan "Kick to the curb" is about lowering the BS's level of care to where they can control the situation.
I think both could work, and that sometimes the suddeness of plan kick to the curb is actually better and can knock the WS out of the fog, especially in a case where the WS isn't really looking to leave the marriage.
Neither approach will sustain things afterwards if EN's continue to go unmet.
If you have not met your wayward wifes emotional needs, she justifies having her affair. She uses that to convince herself that you don't care about her, that you don't love her.
In many cases, the WW tried to get your attention but gave up.
It makes her incredibly angry when you show the ability and willingness to meet those needs. She has already checked out.
She will think "oh NOW you'll do these things, after its too late, after I already found someone else".
And she will convince herself that you are only willing now -- because you fear divorce or financial loss. Not because you love her. She is already convinced that you do not care about her.
And she knows her behavior is trashy. So she is mad at YOU for making her resort to that.
If you have not met your wayward wifes emotional needs, she justifies having her affair. She uses that to convince herself that you don't care about her, that you don't love her.
In many cases, the WW tried to get your attention but gave up.
This is why I'm a proponent of plan FU for a wayward wife, after having tried exposure, plan A, and plan I give up. (I really saw no reason for plan B since we had no contact anyway other than via lawyers.)
No matter what you do, if you find yourself in this situation, you are wrong if you are a BH.
If you didn't understand her "pleas" she thinks she clearly made, then you are the bad BH who deserves his wife leaving.
If you admit you made mistakes and try to do things right, (plan A) instead of your efforts being viewed as what they are, trying to be the best husband you can possibly be, they are treated with contempt and in 85% of the cases if we believe the numbers presented in the OP, they don't really matter anyway since she'll continue on with the affair and the divorce. If you participate in plan FU, then she'll feel validated, ignoring the nuclear rape of the marriage called her affair.
So plan FU it is, since a wayward really is out of her mind anyway. If someone has so little respect for me that they'll have an affair and try to blame me for it, then plan FU is the most appropriate plan.
It makes her incredibly angry when you show the ability and willingness to meet those needs. She has already checked out.
She will think "oh NOW you'll do these things, after its too late, after I already found someone else".
And she will convince herself that you are only willing now -- because you fear divorce or financial loss. Not because you love her. She is already convinced that you do not care about her.
And she knows her behavior is trashy. So she is mad at YOU for making her resort to that.
Which is why I say plan FU for the reasons I've stated before. No matter what you do, she's going to spin it to blame her BH, so what does it really matter.
Spend your resources on trying to get custody if you have minor children, not on trying to win back the WW.
And then there are WWs who are like me, EE...Plan A worked in our case...Today we are very happily married with an intact family -- So if we are going to use anecdotal situations as evidence, then each time you mention yours, please be sure to mention ours as well. That's only fair, yes?
Mrs. W
And then there are WWs who are like me, EE...Plan A worked in our case...Today we are very happily married with an intact family -- So if we are going to use anecdotal situations as evidence, then each time you mention yours, please be sure to mention ours as well please. That's only fair, yes?
Mrs. W
What would be fair is for every one of your cases, remind folks that there are 6 cases where the WW got the divorce she wanted.
So I'll mention yours every 7th time, given that we are now told that only 15% of BH's who works the plans end up with a restored marriage.
The other 85% get the result I got.
I'm willing to mention your result, but keep in mind your results are not typical, and that's always been my point.
If you want to fight, then this is the best plan. But even the best plan has only a 15 percent success rate. Which means it's an 85 percent failure rate when you define success as a recovered marriage.
Now Dr H can redefine success as either a recovered marriage, or a BH being ready for it to end if you wish. But that's like defining a successful operation as only losing half your limbs and organs. You may be alive, but you lost half.
If a BH loses daily access to his children, there is now way you can call the outcome of the plan a success, period.
If someone has so little respect for me that they'll have an affair and try to blame me for it, then plan FU is the most appropriate plan.
EE, I think you should know by now that her affair was not about you.
FTR, my H also had success w/ his Plan A. Moreover, it was a fear of any sort of Plan B by him that fueled our recovery.
If someone has so little respect for me that they'll have an affair and try to blame me for it, then plan FU is the most appropriate plan.
EE, I think you should know by now that her affair was not about you.
FTR, my H also had success w/ his Plan A. Moreover, it was a fear of any sort of Plan B by him that fueled our recovery.
That's odd, it was me she divorced, not herself. It was me who is no longer the primary custodian of our child simply because she was a stay at home mom.
Telling me it wasn't about me really is little comfort since my XWW has the majority of time to shape and mold my child.
So why not tell me something really useful and comforting?
I believe you mean well. I hope you understand how hollow your words come across when I read them.
And then there are WWs who are like me, EE...Plan A worked in our case...Today we are very happily married with an intact family -- So if we are going to use anecdotal situations as evidence, then each time you mention yours, please be sure to mention ours as well please. That's only fair, yes?
Mrs. W
What would be fair is for every one of your cases, remind folks that there are 6 cases where the WW got the divorce she wanted.
So I'll mention yours every 7th time, given that we are now told that only 15% of BH's who works the plans end up with a restored marriage.
The other 85% get the result I got.
I'm willing to mention your result, but keep in mind your results are not typical, and that's always been my point.
If you want to fight, then this is the best plan. But even the best plan has only a 15 percent success rate. Which means it's an 85 percent failure rate when you define success as a recovered marriage.
Now Dr H can redefine success as either a recovered marriage, or a BH being ready for it to end if you wish. But that's like defining a successful operation as only losing half your limbs and organs. You may be alive, but you lost half.
If a BH loses daily access to his children, there is now way you can call the outcome of the plan a success, period.
But isn't the outcome a foregone conclusion anyway, according to your theory, EE? Why not try something to get a better outcome?
Say you have a nasty cut on your leg. You visit the doc, and he says:
A) You know what? Let's just amputate the whole thing, be done with it. Simple!
or
B) Let's clean it out, try some meds, and you should be back to normal in 2-3 weeks.
What makes more sense to you?
If someone has so little respect for me that they'll have an affair and try to blame me for it, then plan FU is the most appropriate plan.
EE, I think you should know by now that her affair was not about you.
FTR, my H also had success w/ his Plan A. Moreover, it was a fear of any sort of Plan B by him that fueled our recovery.
That's odd, it was me she divorced, not herself. It was me who is no longer the primary custodian of our child simply because she was a stay at home mom.
Telling me it wasn't about me really is little comfort since my XWW has the majority of time to shape and mold my child.
So why not tell me something really useful and comforting?
I believe you mean well. I hope you understand how hollow your words come across when I read them.
EE, my intent was more to point out something that I think is a necessary part of recovery.
We all know infidelity is devastating to M, to families, to kids - it's an equal opportunity destroyer. And, yeah, it's entirely unfair that an actively WS should by default get custody when there is a better alternative in the BS. I shudder to think what kind of lives my kids would have had if my H and I D'd and I had custody of the kids when I was wayward.
But even though you feel some severe consequences, to think that her decision to have an affair and carry through with destroying your family had anything to do with you is just holding you back from making your life better without her. That's all I wanted to point out.
The problem is the BH doesn't get to make that decision.
An affair is more than a nasty cut. The BH didn't choose the cut, and the WW didn't fall on the OM's penis by accident.
She is the one who chooses if she's going to amputate or not. It doesn't matter if he plan A's or plan FU's, she will ultimately decide.
Only in 15% of cases where he plan A's will she choose NOT to amputate. The other 85% of the time or 6 out of 7 times, she will cut.
So keep in mind that for every restored marriage you cite, there are 6 where the WW ignored her husband and stayed gone, and probably took his kids too.
This isn't a problem with men here. The real question is why do we keep making excuses for these women who betray their husbands? Why do we allow the courts to continue to give these women primary custody of their children? Why do these women get any marital assets when they betray their vows.
Instead of blaming men, why are we not coming down hard on the women who choose to end their marriages in such a fashion?
If they want out, fine, let them go. We cannot hold someone against her will. But she should leave with only a suitcase and 50% of the marital debt. No assets, no children.
But instead of addressing that issue, we want to analyze if husbands are doing the right things if their wives betray them.
Wrong focus.
The question is why are we tolerating unfaithful spouses, men or women getting a single good marital asset or more than a nanosecond with the children who they also betray with their affairs?
That's the real question.
So your message is to just not fight at all then? Instead to bemoan the unfairness of it all and just roll over and give up in the beginning? To just go ahead and admit defeat without a fight EVEN though there IS a chance -- Even though there ARE families who are restored by using these plans?
EE, if you don't fight you are guaranteed to lose -- Aren't families worth the fight when some ARE restored?
Mrs. W
Who will actually fight? I asked the question why we are blaming the husband when the acts of the WW are what we need to address?
This whole thread is nothing but blaming the BH. He didn't meet her needs, he didn't hear her, he didn't take the right actions when she had her affair.
If you really want men to fight, then why not stop shooting at them with the criticisms? As I clearly said before, the problem isn't with the men, but what we are tolerating from the women in these cases.
Who will join me going to the state capitol and seeking to have both adultery and choosing a no-fault divorce when there is no marital misconduct grounds to be a unfit parent and an automatic division of assets and debts going to the victimized spouse, regardless of gender?
After all, Dr Harley says affairs are abuse akin to rape, so why are emotional rapists getting primary custody of children? Why are emotional rapists getting ANY marital assets and able to avoid marital debt if their income is low enough?
I am fighting, I'm fighting against the absurd notion that any of this is the BH's fault. I'm fighting against the absurd notion that the BH's should have to do anything to keep his kids or protect the marital assets when faced with an unfaithful or walk-away wife.
So who is going to step up and fight against the nonsense that requires an BH (or BW for that matter) to have to fight about anything. If they are betrayed, the wayward or walkaway (because walking away is betrayal too) gets nothing but a suitcase full of clothes and 50% of the marital debt, period.
Basically, since I've fought and lost and 6 out of 7 BH's who fight also lose, what I suggest is that we change the shape of the battlefield.
The first step is to ensure the betrayed don't have to fight. We need to change the laws such that the betrayed spouse does not have to fight to keep anything, but if the wayward spouse wants anything they have to fight get back in the marriage. Because the only way a wayward, walkway or abuse spouse would get anything is if they convince the one they harmed and a professional such as Dr H, that they are worthy of returning to the marriage.
It takes a unanimous vote to allow the wayward back in.
Otherwise, the wayward is removed from the marriage, any marital assets and 1/2 the marital debt.
So my fight is now against the whole system that would have the betrayed spouse fight to remain in the family.
The wayward should be the one fighting to remain in the family, not the betrayed.
It's time to change the system.
I agree with you 100% that the laws should be changed, EE -- Paying lip service to that here doesn't do much good though, huh?
Mrs. W
I'm not asking you to play lip service. You say we should fight, so what are you doing to change the laws? What can we do? Who would actually support me in seeking to accomplish that in my state?
(BTW, my state's supreme court has ruled that infidelity has no bearing on custody cases, so it's a tough fight.)
Everyone says fight, but who will actually join me in the fight?
If someone has so little respect for me that they'll have an affair and try to blame me for it, then plan FU is the most appropriate plan.
Most appropriate
for you.
Not most appropriate for a man who wants to try something different, to possibly save the remaining love he has for his WW.
Plan B is appropriate for other BHs who have a different goal.
So my fight is now against the whole system that would have the betrayed spouse fight to remain in the family.
The wayward should be the one fighting to remain in the family, not the betrayed.
It's time to change the system.
Really?
What system is that?
I'm not asking you to play lip service. You say we should fight, so what are you doing to change the laws? What can we do? Who would actually support me in seeking to accomplish that in my state?
(BTW, my state's supreme court has ruled that infidelity has no bearing on custody cases, so it's a tough fight.)
Everyone says fight, but who will actually join me in the fight?
I'm curious as to what YOU are doing to change things. You want people to join you in your fight, but are you actually fighting? Are you lobbying for changes in the law in your own state? What actions have YOU taken so far to try to change things?
I happen to agree that it isn't fair for the WW (or WH) to get custody of the kids and half the marital assets. But that's the way the law works right now in a lot of states (mine included). I'm not divorced, and I don't intend to get divorced, so that's probably why I've never joined in the fight against this. But you are, and you have a personal stake in getting things like this changed.
So what are you going to do about it EE?
This whole thread is nothing but blaming the BH. He didn't meet her needs, he didn't hear her, he didn't take the right actions when she had her affair.
You are flat out WRONG.
Apologize to me now.
I'm not asking you to play lip service. You say we should fight, so what are you doing to change the laws? What can we do? Who would actually support me in seeking to accomplish that in my state?
(BTW, my state's supreme court has ruled that infidelity has no bearing on custody cases, so it's a tough fight.)
Everyone says fight, but who will actually join me in the fight?
Well I don't think that we live in the same state, EE...Mr. W and I do our share to combat what we can...One of the things we do is support MB and Dr. Harley who DOES do a lot to try and change the laws -- and his is a much bigger voice than is ours...Have you read his book
Defending Traditional Marriage?
Mrs. W
To whom it may concern:
So Plan A is for those that want to save their marriage, or at least try to do so and when the affair has not come to an immediate end and remorse set in just by confronting a wayward wife. It does not save all marriages, is not for anyone who is a bit squeamish about swallowing their own pride and is not for everyone. But for a man, who wants to save his marriage, has not been able to break the affair by confronting his wife and can handle his tendency to be macho above all it can and does lead to success in about 15% of the cases it is applied to.
I don't dispute this. I simply see the battle differently. The BH shouldn't be trying to win his wife back. The BH should have to option of allow or not allow the WW back to the family. In other words, she should be the one fighting, the one having to choose to plan A or not, because she is losing everything.
Goes along with what ML says. Don't leave. I'll go that further and don't allow your wife to take the children if you even suspect an affair. If she wants to go, she can go. If she wants to spend time with the children, it's supervised at home. But as long as she's fogged out and suspect, she shouldn't be trusted with the children.
Shape the battle so the WW is already on the back-foot and has to fight to get back in, rather than the BH having to fight the same fight.
If she's already gone, then even the prospect of losing her kids, all marital assets and being saddle with 1/2 of the marital debt probably won't change her mind anyway.
I think that has a far better chance of reaching her than counting on a fogged out wayward to give her BH the benefit of any doubt she's having.
I tend to believe what was presented above, the plan A, even if done perfectly is discounted by the 6 out of 7 WW's. So how do you reach the most WW's? It's not by plan A. The cost of getting out of the marriage has to be greater than the perceived benefit for those 6 out of 7.
Right now, there is little cost for the WW to leave, so the majority will take that path of least resistance.
The problem is the BH doesn't get to make that decision.
An affair is more than a nasty cut. The BH didn't choose the cut, and the WW didn't fall on the OM's penis by accident.
She is the one who chooses if she's going to amputate or not. It doesn't matter if he plan A's or plan FU's, she will ultimately decide.
Only in 15% of cases where he plan A's will she choose NOT to amputate. The other 85% of the time or 6 out of 7 times, she will cut.
So keep in mind that for every restored marriage you cite, there are 6 where the WW ignored her husband and stayed gone, and probably took his kids too.
So basically, the rate of success is too low so in your opinion, no one should ever try to save their marriage after infidelity?
I'm guessing we should also tell many cancer victims that the chance of saving their lives is too low, so the doctors aren't even going to bother treating them? If you were diagnosed with a cancer that had a 15% survival rate, wouldn't you at least want to try the therapy? Would you really tell everyone with certain types of cancer to not even bother and just give up and die? Isn't it worth trying to treat something in order to save that 15% that do survive and go on to live fulfilling lives?
This whole thread is nothing but blaming the BH. He didn't meet her needs, he didn't hear her, he didn't take the right actions when she had her affair.
You are flat out WRONG.
Apologize to me now.
Your intent was not that, but look at the responses. The man isn't doing the right things. He didn't meet her needs, he isn't fighting, he's not doing the right things.
I did not say this was your intent, but it is what the thread is largely about.
Again, I'll ask the question you ignored, why do we even tolerate the WW? Why do we tolerate a system where the betrayed spouse, regardless of gender has to fight to keep his/her kids, get support, etc?
I will not apologize for my observations regarding what has been said. I will apologize if you thought I was talking about you personally, as I was not. I do not believe that was your intent.
However, my observation of what has been said stands.
Again, I'll ask the question you ignored, why do we even tolerate the WW? Why do we tolerate a system where the betrayed spouse, regardless of gender has to fight to keep his/her kids, get support, etc?
Acceptance is not submission; it is acknowledgement of the facts of a situation. Then deciding what you're going to do about it.
- Kathleen Casey Theisen
You do not have an issue with Plans A to B to D.
You think BSs , men in particular, should skip right to Plan D.
That is FINE WITH ME if that is THEIR desire.
When it is THEIR DESIRE to try something different , Plans A to B to D, then I think we need to show RESPECT for that particular BH, and help him try.
EE, you can misread my intent and the intent of others all day long, it does not change the fact that this site is supposed to HELP people apply the Harley plans to their own situation IF THEY CHOOSE TO DO SO.
Apologize better. It was not good enough for me.
Read on, you are missing the point, not to mention making an apples to oranges comparison.
But let me see if I can fit my proposal into your analogy.
The BH is the one who gets the cancer diagnosis. We simply don't allow the cancer, the WW, to take away the BH's quality of life. She can't have his kids, she can't take his money, she can't kick him out of the home.
We as a society have a duty to the victims of the wayward cancer to reduce the damage it does to the victim, the betrayed husband.
We do such cancer victims a disservice if we allow the cancer to take away their children, their homes, their savings. When they are weak, we fight the cancer, so they can focus on healing.
If the cancer wants back in his life, she has to stop being a cancer and prove that she's fit to parent, etc.
We don't allow the cancer to make the choices, the patient makes all the choices. The only choice we allow the cancer to make is if she's going to remain a cancer, or become something far less destructive.
Read on, you are missing the point, not to mention making an apples to oranges comparison.
But let me see if I can fit my proposal into your analogy.
The BH is the one who gets the cancer diagnosis. We simply don't allow the cancer, the WW, to take away the BH's quality of life. She can't have his kids, she can't take his money, she can't kick him out of the home.
We as a society have a duty to the victims of the wayward cancer to reduce the damage it does to the victim, the betrayed husband.
We do such cancer victims a disservice if we allow the cancer to take away their children, their homes, their savings. When they are weak, we fight the cancer, so they can focus on healing.
If the cancer wants back in his life, she has to stop being a cancer and prove that she's fit to parent, etc.
We don't allow the cancer to make the choices, the patient makes all the choices. The only choice we allow the cancer to make is if she's going to remain a cancer, or become something far less destructive.
And you never answered my first question. What are you, EE, doing to change the laws in your state so that adulterers do not get custody of the kids and half the marital assets?
Again, I'll ask the question you ignored, why do we even tolerate the WW? Why do we tolerate a system where the betrayed spouse, regardless of gender has to fight to keep his/her kids, get support, etc?
Acceptance is not submission; it is acknowledgement of the facts of a situation. Then deciding what you're going to do about it.
- Kathleen Casey Theisen
You do not have an issue with Plans A to B to D.
You think BSs , men in particular, should skip right to Plan D.
That is FINE WITH ME if that is THEIR desire.
When it is THEIR DESIRE to try something different , Plans A to B to D, then I think we need to show RESPECT for that particular BH, and help him try.
EE, you can misread my intent and the intent of others all day long, it does not change the fact that this site is supposed to HELP people apply the Harley plans to their own situation IF THEY CHOOSE TO DO SO.
Apologize better. It was not good enough for me.
Apparently, it is you mis-reading my intent. I clearly said I was not speaking about you specifically. But perhaps after clearly saying that and being misunderstood and criticized, I should re-think that.
Nice quote, but why even accept it? After all, we tell folks all the time they should not accept abuse, correct? If folks can deliver the no-tolerance for abuse message here, then why do you criticize me for delivering the no-tolerance for wayward behaviors?
Be honest, have you told someone who suggests no tolerance for abuse that such a policy is fine for them, but if others want to tolerate abuse, then we should support them in that decision?
I agree, we should support someone who wants to save their marriage. So how are we supporting the 6 out of 7 who don't end up with a saved marriage by standing by and accepting the situation as it is?
What are you going to do about the fact that 6 out of 7 betrayed husbands, who apply Dr H's plans end up divorced and most likely visitors to their children?
I'm saying they need to keep their kids from day one. Not allow a change in their home. Don't leave, don't allow the kids to move out. The WW can leave or stay.
If the guy wants to win, I really think his best chance is to first make it clear that she's going to be the one on the outside if she continues the affair. She'll have to move out, she'll have to open a new bank account, she'll have to get a job, she'll have to buy new clothes, a new car, because he's not going to support a wayward spouse.
Now he can say he's made mistakes, he's willing to listen to her complaints and address them with the program, but will not do that as long as there is any sort of contact with the OM.
I have said that I would immediately file for divorce if there wasn't true remorse and repentance in about a nanosecond.
Is that because I want a divorce, or because I want to send a message that marriage means something, and if she's not willing to agree regarding what those vows mean, then I'm not willing to be married to her.
I've also said that the guy should file so he controls the timetable. He can stretch out the time as long as the law allows when he's the one who has filed. He can wait until the last day to do the next step and since she's responding, she can't prepare much in advance.
He can still work on what he needs to, and should do so. Not with any expectation that she'll return, but because it will make him a better person.
If she returns AND actually MB's, then great. If not, then great too, as long as he still has the kids, the house and off-loaded 1/2 the marital debt and no marital assets to her.
I don't think you'll ever know how much I do respect a BH who actually fights for his marriage, having been one who did that very thing.
What I wonder is do you really respect my experience on the topic? After all, my experience is just as valuable and just as worth of respect as the desires of those who choose to fight or not fight.
I've been there. I've fought to win back the WW, remember. I know what it's like not eating or sleeping for the first few months, losing 25-30#, having to go on meds to control my blood pressure and anxiety.
I know what it's like wondering if the best solution is to just end it all with a pistol to the temple or driving into a telephone poll, or pulling out in front of a train.
Dr H is right, it's not for the faint of heart. It's for an extra special kind of man. It damn near killed me. But for the grace of God I didn't take my life, nor did I act on my desires to murder the affair partners.
I don't know if that makes me a good man for resisting those thoughts, or a bad man for having them. But they are something I had to battle. All of it.
I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. I told my best friend and his wife that if he ever cheated on her, to call me and I'd straighten him out. I made sure both of them heard me and understood that I was serious. That if he betrayed her, I'd do a little wall-to-wall counseling on him. That if either betrayed the other, that I'd be in the betrayed spouses corner for and do everything in my power to make sure the other was an infrequent visitor to the children.
I can support those who choose to plan A, B or D their spouse and still give my advice. As I've said before, if someone asks me what I would do, I'd tell them, file for divorce immediately, seek to cut them out of everything legally possible, make divorce seem like a very costly choice so that they might choose to work on the marriage.
If they say they want to plan A, B or whatever, I'd support them in their choice.
I can do both without being inconsistent. Because of that, I really don't think I need to apologize.
I cannot apologize because you don't understand what I'm saying. I can apologize because I'm not being clear. But that's as far as I can go.
I'm actually working on a bill. I don't know much about it, but heck, if I can draft a bill, maybe I can find others who are working on the same thing and have a better version than I do.
But I'm an engineer, not a lawyer or lawmaker, so it's not my forte. But I have some examples and that will get me started.
It sure would be nice to find a group who is actively seeking to change the no-fault-divorce laws and has a member of the house who can steer such legislation to the house floor.
So far, I've not found any such group, so perhaps it's time to start my own.
Read on, you are missing the point, not to mention making an apples to oranges comparison.
But let me see if I can fit my proposal into your analogy.
The BH is the one who gets the cancer diagnosis. We simply don't allow the cancer, the WW, to take away the BH's quality of life. She can't have his kids, she can't take his money, she can't kick him out of the home.
We as a society have a duty to the victims of the wayward cancer to reduce the damage it does to the victim, the betrayed husband.
We do such cancer victims a disservice if we allow the cancer to take away their children, their homes, their savings. When they are weak, we fight the cancer, so they can focus on healing.
If the cancer wants back in his life, she has to stop being a cancer and prove that she's fit to parent, etc.
We don't allow the cancer to make the choices, the patient makes all the choices. The only choice we allow the cancer to make is if she's going to remain a cancer, or become something far less destructive.
And you never answered my first question. What are you, EE, doing to change the laws in your state so that adulterers do not get custody of the kids and half the marital assets?
Read on, you are missing the point, not to mention making an apples to oranges comparison.
But let me see if I can fit my proposal into your analogy.
The BH is the one who gets the cancer diagnosis. We simply don't allow the cancer, the WW, to take away the BH's quality of life. She can't have his kids, she can't take his money, she can't kick him out of the home.
We as a society have a duty to the victims of the wayward cancer to reduce the damage it does to the victim, the betrayed husband.
We do such cancer victims a disservice if we allow the cancer to take away their children, their homes, their savings. When they are weak, we fight the cancer, so they can focus on healing.
If the cancer wants back in his life, she has to stop being a cancer and prove that she's fit to parent, etc.
We don't allow the cancer to make the choices, the patient makes all the choices. The only choice we allow the cancer to make is if she's going to remain a cancer, or become something far less destructive.
And you believe that a BH in Plan A or Plan B doesn't make a choice?
That's rather disrespectful, EE. There isn't a person on the planet that doesn't realize they have the option of divorce. MB offers another CHOICE for those that don't want to exercise that as their first option...
We can talk about how things ought to be all day long - But HERE at MB we must first DEAL with how things are currently. It does no good to jump up and down screaming "The way things are is NOT FAIR" -- We know that...That will not help a marriage that is in crisis RIGHT NOW...TODAY...SAA is the FRONT LINES - Here it's about helping those that choose to do so with the practical application of what is available to deal with the battle raging right in front of them...
A family that is being destroyed IN REAL TIME, can't rely on what might happen if we all march on Washington...
Mrs. W
EE, what's the intent here? I mean, really - your first post was the one largely responsible for the direction this thread has taken. And no one is arguing w/ you about what's fair or not fair.
You have muddied the waters and what I read as the original intent of this thread by expounding on this idea of what's fair and unfair, about how we need to change the moral reasoning of the law, about how a BH should treat his WW... when the original parameters still have not changed:
*There was an affair
*The BS gets the short end of the stick
*The WS AND the BS have choices to make that are theirs and theirs alone
*IF the BS CHOOSES TO TRY TO SAVE THE MARRIAGE, the MB concepts of Plan A and Plan B are the best bet for that
You cannot change that first one. It's done. Now you do the best you can with that given. Just like everyone else here on the MB WEBSITE and what they are choosing to do with their givens.
Read on, you are missing the point, not to mention making an apples to oranges comparison.
But let me see if I can fit my proposal into your analogy.
The BH is the one who gets the cancer diagnosis. We simply don't allow the cancer, the WW, to take away the BH's quality of life. She can't have his kids, she can't take his money, she can't kick him out of the home.
We as a society have a duty to the victims of the wayward cancer to reduce the damage it does to the victim, the betrayed husband.
We do such cancer victims a disservice if we allow the cancer to take away their children, their homes, their savings. When they are weak, we fight the cancer, so they can focus on healing.
If the cancer wants back in his life, she has to stop being a cancer and prove that she's fit to parent, etc.
We don't allow the cancer to make the choices, the patient makes all the choices. The only choice we allow the cancer to make is if she's going to remain a cancer, or become something far less destructive.
And you believe that a BH in Plan A or Plan B doesn't make a choice?
That's rather disrespectful, EE. There isn't a person on the planet that doesn't realize they have the option of divorce. MB offers another CHOICE for those that don't want to exercise that as their first option...
We can talk about how things ought to be all day long - But HERE at MB we must first DEAL with how things are currently. It does no good to jump up and down screaming "The way things are is NOT FAIR" -- We know that...That will not help a marriage that is in crisis RIGHT NOW...TODAY...SAA is the FRONT LINES - Here it's about helping those that choose to do so with the practical application of what is available to deal with the battle raging right in front of them...
A family that is being destroyed IN REAL TIME, can't rely on what might happen if we all march on Washington...
Mrs. W
Was I unclear when I said:
We don't allow the cancer to make the choices, the patient makes all the choices.
I think I was pretty clear that ALL the choices save one should be reserved for the BH. The only choice he cannot make is if his wife will end her affair or not.
Every other choice should be his and only his to make.
So how do you get that the BH isn't allowed to choose? He doesn't get to choose if his wife has an affair or not. Unless you are suggesting he be given that level of control???
Fine, my fights the wrong fight. We should just tolerate WW and keep blaming men when the don't fight, or fight the wrong fight, or whatever.
You all have proven my point. Thanks.
I've been told I'm fighting the wrong fight. I've been told I'm fighting the fight wrongly.
I've said given that 85% of attempts by BH's to save marriages end up in failure, what we need to give the guy on the ground to succeed is something that will result in an 85% success rate.
Folks here are suggesting we stick with the 85% failure rate.
For me, a 15% success rate isn't good enough. So I'm looking to change the battle in such a fashion that I believe will produce more success.
I believe that if the wayward party has more to lose, such as custody, all marital assets, etc, there is far more incentive for her to return to the marriage.
We've already read where even when the BH plan A's, the vast majority (6 out of 7) don't believe him and continue with the affair and the divorce. I believe part of that is because the typical WW can remove the BH from the family, but keep the assets and the children and end up with little or no debt.
She believes (usually wrongly) that he's the largest problem in the family and if she gets rid of him, it will be better.
Well maybe it will if he still has to support her and is turned into a visitor to his children.
But what if she was the one left on the outside looking in if she didn't end her affair?
Maybe instead of seeing 85% of those cases end up without a recovered marriage, you would see 85% of the husbands fighting for their families have an intact family.
I'm all for the guy with boots on the ground. The current battle plan only works for 1 out 7 of them.
What about the other 6? When are we going to give him a plan that works for those guys?
So please, don't tell me I'm not supporting the guy on the ground. I am. After all, folks are content with a 15% success rate.
I'm not!
EE, the way it looks to me, your plan probably wouldn't result in many Recovered marriages either. It may result in fewer divorces, but merely staying married doesn't equal a recovered marriage. Sure, WW's may choose to stay if they were threatened with losing everything if they left, but would they be staying for the right reason? Would you really want your WW to stay with you just because she's afraid of losing everything? That isn't my definition of a happy, recovered marriage.
I think it's largely the same thing that brings WH's back. They see that what they are leaving behind, the kids, the house, etc is better than what they are getting in return.
So why not give the BH the same advantages that are given the BW?
Remember, the typical BW plan A's while having the kids while her WH is a visitor, if he sees them at all. She's at home while he's living in the OW's apartment, or on his buddies couch.
So why not the same treatment for the WW?
I don't think we should have someone stay because they are afraid of losing everything. However, it likely takes being faced with losing everything in order to drive home the reality of the situation.
After all, doesn't Dr H have a plan A and a plan B? What is plan B but exactly what I'm saying. Plan B is, "You are giving up all of this to have your affair, get your divorce, etc. I will not be your buddy after the divorce, I will do what it takes to ensure the children spend as much time as possible with the morally responsible parent, you cannot come and go from the marital home, or get one dime of support from me for your affair.
What I'm suggesting is that the LAW actually support the betrayed, both husbands and wives if they believe plan B is their best option when faced with a wayward spouse.
The other thing, if she didn't want to stay, she's free to go. In fact, I'd suggest the betrayed spouse is no obliged to take her back.
But the betrayed spouse, under my plan would not be the visiting parent, would not leave the marital home, would not pay alimony or child support, but may receive those, and so forth.
So even if the marriage was dissolved, the impact to him would only be losing his spouse. He would be the primary custodian for his children and retain all marital assets.
That's a far better outcome than WW's being the primary custodian and getting marital assets if not alimony and having control over how the BH's is or isn't spent on his children.
EE, you're assuming then that when there is a WH, 85% of the time, he comes home and chooses to stay in the M after his BW's Plan A and Plan B. I haven't seen any statistics to back that up. Where does Dr. Harley say that Plan A then Plan B works 85% of the time when there is a WH, but it only works 15% of the time when there is a WW?
The other thing, if she didn't want to stay, she's free to go. In fact, I'd suggest the betrayed spouse is no obliged to take her back.
But the betrayed spouse, under my plan would not be the visiting parent, would not leave the marital home, would not pay alimony or child support, but may receive those, and so forth.
So even if the marriage was dissolved, the impact to him would only be losing his spouse. He would be the primary custodian for his children and retain all marital assets.
That's a far better outcome than WW's being the primary custodian and getting marital assets if not alimony and having control over how the BH's is or isn't spent on his children.
I agree that your plan would put the BS (H or W) in a better position.
I do not, however, think it would lead to more recovered marriages, which was your original assertion.
I don't know that it works 85% of the time or not. However, I'm pretty confident it's more than 15% of the time.
Isn't the objective to save more marriages?
Even if we can't get to my goal of an 85% success rate, if we can do better than 15% shouldn't we try?
Sure I'd like to see a 100% success rate. But if BW's are having a 33-50% success rate and BH's are having a 15% success rate using the same plans, then maybe we need either a different plan, or similar consequences for both sets of waywards.
I thought I read somewhere that the success rate for BW was 2 to 3 times higher than for BH's. If I'm correct, then that would certainly be a great move in the right direction.
Also remember, that since 2/3rds of all divorces are initiated by women and according to Dr H himself, few of those are betrayed or abused women, simply changing that 15% to 30% would save a lot of marriages.
Thirty percent of 66% is almost 20%. So if you could save 1 out of 5 instead of 1 out of 10, then you are moving in the right direction. (If I've done the math right in my head, a 15% success rate in 2/3rds of all cases is (1/7) * (2/3) = 2/21 or just under 10% so yes, roughly 1/10 of all divorces are turned around by the BH who plan A's.)
I believe if the WW faced the same consequences as the WH, that number could go to 1/5 if not 2/5 which is a significant improvement.
Well to start with, a system that does not take into account the WS's infidelity.
Since we tend to agree with Dr H here, the WS is guilty of the equivalent of rape.
So why isn't infidelity considered in a custody hearing. After all, if someone raped their spouse and chose divorce, we would have no problem with them never seeing their child again. Yet the same folks appear to say they want to work with-in a system that allows those who perpetrated crimes upon their betrayed spouse as damaging as rape to even be considered, let alone allowed to be the primary custodian of a child.
But yet I have to endure how I'm the one out of step here.
Do you really believe in what Dr Harley says? Then why are we discounting him when he says the damage done by the WS is far greater than rape?
When you add in the fact that the WS is betraying not only the BS, but also her children, how can we even consider allowing a WS to even think she could ask for custody of a child with the expectation that a court would grant her custody?
Unlike the rapist, who only rapes the adult victim, the WS rapes everyone in the family, not just the BS.
That's the system I am talking about, a system that would even consider giving such an emotionally abusive person unfettered access to children.
So my fight is now against the whole system that would have the betrayed spouse fight to remain in the family.
The wayward should be the one fighting to remain in the family, not the betrayed.
It's time to change the system.
Really?
What system is that?
I think people have been pointing out that Dr. Harley has to work within the system that is currently in place. Everyone does.
Currently, a lot of states do not take adultery into account when deciding the terms of a divorce. Right or wrong, that's the way it is.
When someone comes here trying to deal with an unfaithful spouse, it does them no good to go on and on about how unfair the system is and how it needs to be changed. That may be true, but it isn't going to help a newly betrayed person save their marriage, which I believe was Pep's point in starting this thread, to help BH's (who want to) save their marriages.
So that means we shouldn't change the system?
Why not both? After all, do you disagree that if the system is set up to be a large factor in an 85% failure rate, not only do we have to support the guy on the ground while he's in the circumstance. But we also need to change the circumstance.
I thought of this analogy about an hour ago.
Think back to when we had all sorts of troops in Iraq. The insurgents were using IEDs to take out Humvees. I don't know what the real numbers were, but I suspect I'm not too far out of line here.
Let's say that 6 out or 7 attacks on Humvees were successful for the attacker, meaning the vehicle was destroyed and people were killed and injured.
We didn't just keep sending our soldiers out in Humvees as they were forever. That would be insane. Instead soldiers started to apply some battlefield modifications to add armor to them.
That's the advice I'm giving with plan FU. Uparmor your family. Protect them from the attacks of the WW.
At the same time, on the home front, congress sees the problem and starts an official program to up-armor the Humvees as well as new vehicles that are more heavily armored such as the Stryker Infantry Combat Vehicle. A set of "official" solutions to better protect the soldier.
So why not both in our protect marriage situation here? We can give advice to the boots on the ground to best protect his family. I.E. don't move out, don't allow WW or a WAW to take your children, don't finance the affair (giving money to the enemy) etc. When faced with a potential WW, protect your family first until you know what you are really facing.
Because the reality is, you really will not know what it is you are facing if you've never been on the receiving end of an affair before.
First, you won't believe your wife is having an affair. If she utters those words, "I love you, but I'm not in love with you." You'll probably think there is something wrong with you. If you do love her, then you'll probably spend a lot of time an energy looking at what you can do better.
It may work, but as we've seen, it's about a 1 in 7 chance that even addressing those things will work.
That means there is a 6 out of 7 chance that she's trying to take your kids and get out of dodge or force you out of the home. So up-armor your family against this possibility.
This is especially true if you ask for specifics and you just get things like, "we are incompatible" "I don't feel the same for you I once did" or any of the other fog-babble. The newly BH will not recognize this for what it is, and will spend a lot of time and energy on the wrong path.
So I recommend at the very least, digging in and taking a defensive posture until you know what you are facing. Is it a full blown affair. Is it an EA she hopes will turn into a PA? Or is she really just tired of your crap and is going to walk away and try to take the kids with her?
But while new BH's are fighting this fight everyday, who is back home, trying to provide better armor for his family against such attacks? Who has his back on the home front providing better tools to protect him from the enemy?
Who is writing better laws to protect the BS from the sneak attacks of the WS?
Don't we need both? Neither the marriage, nor the legal landscape will get better if no action is taken.
I think people have been pointing out that Dr. Harley has to work within the system that is currently in place. Everyone does.
Slavery was once legal.
Women were not allowed to vote.
Jim Crow laws were allowed to remain in effect.
Husbands could beat or rapes wives and it was not a crime.
Do we really have to work within the system as it is today?
I think people have been pointing out that Dr. Harley has to work within the system that is currently in place. Everyone does.
Slavery was once legal.
Women were not allowed to vote.
Jim Crow laws were allowed to remain in effect.
Husbands could beat or rapes wives and it was not a crime.
Do we really have to work within the system as it is today?
Dr. Harley isn't a lawyer either. He isn't a judge or a congressman or a senator.
So yes, he has to work within the system.
He's a marriage and family counselor. It is his goal to help people have the best marriages possible. He may be in favor of changing divorce laws, but I don't think that is his main focus in life.
Fine, my fights the wrong fight. We should just tolerate WW and keep blaming men when the don't fight, or fight the wrong fight, or whatever.
You all have proven my point. Thanks.
I've been told I'm fighting the wrong fight. I've been told I'm fighting the fight wrongly.
I've said given that 85% of attempts by BH's to save marriages end up in failure, what we need to give the guy on the ground to succeed is something that will result in an 85% success rate.
Folks here are suggesting we stick with the 85% failure rate.
For me, a 15% success rate isn't good enough. So I'm looking to change the battle in such a fashion that I believe will produce more success.
I believe that if the wayward party has more to lose, such as custody, all marital assets, etc, there is far more incentive for her to return to the marriage.
We've already read where even when the BH plan A's, the vast majority (6 out of 7) don't believe him and continue with the affair and the divorce. I believe part of that is because the typical WW can remove the BH from the family, but keep the assets and the children and end up with little or no debt.
She believes (usually wrongly) that he's the largest problem in the family and if she gets rid of him, it will be better.
Well maybe it will if he still has to support her and is turned into a visitor to his children.
But what if she was the one left on the outside looking in if she didn't end her affair?
Maybe instead of seeing 85% of those cases end up without a recovered marriage, you would see 85% of the husbands fighting for their families have an intact family.
I'm all for the guy with boots on the ground. The current battle plan only works for 1 out 7 of them.
What about the other 6? When are we going to give him a plan that works for those guys?
So please, don't tell me I'm not supporting the guy on the ground. I am. After all, folks are content with a 15% success rate.
I'm not!
EE,
Thank you for this summation. I understand much more clearly the interplay among the points you're making.
I agree that more consequences for the WS are fair, and would probably act as some form of compulsion/"think twice" on the WS. I can see how it could lead to more M recovery, though also understand writer's point about staying in the M for the wrong reasons.
No quick fix.
I cannot apologize because you don't understand what I'm saying. I can apologize because I'm not being clear. But that's as far as I can go.
You hijacked this thread so it is now all about you.
I am unappreciative of that.
That's the system I am talking about, a system that would even consider giving such an emotionally abusive person unfettered access to children.
It's time to change the system.
You have changed the focus of my thread to a different subject of your choosing.
I call that rude.
Really?
Go back and reread my first post in this thread and then the responses to my post and tell me you still believe that.
I gave my opinion and explained why I believed it was best and I got all sorts of anecdotes about how I was wrong.
When I asked the legitimate question about the 85% who do not succeed using the plans, I was told that we should try anyway.
But when I suggest that there is a fight even bigger, I'm told that we have to work within the system.
Sorry, I didn't make it about me. Others took it upon themselves to try to shout me down or reason my point of view away.
This thread is about what the BH faces and his options. I presented a rationale for one of the options presented and a call for changing the landscape so that any wayward, husband or wife doesn't have to fight to remain a key part of his/her family.
The only part that was about me was sharing my anecdote. Apparently, while Mrs W and Mrs Vanilla are allowed to share about them, somehow you find it offensive and rude if I share about myself.
So is it about me, or is it about you controlling a discussion you started? Because the standards are not being applied evenly when you single me out for complaint for doing what most others are doing in this thread.
If you don't want me to comment on what BH's should do, don't bring it up in a discussion. If you want to discuss what BH's should do, expect that I may join the discussion and share my views.
It really is that simple.
I cannot apologize because you don't understand what I'm saying. I can apologize because I'm not being clear. But that's as far as I can go.
You hijacked this thread so it is now all about you.
I am unappreciative of that.
I never thought it was any sort of fight, or at least nothing personal. Just differing points of view.
If a BH want's to plan A, he's free to plan A. I simply think that he needs to consider defending his family against the natural tendencies of the typical WW, which will be to try to force out the BH, keep him out of his home, away from his children, etc.
I think that the BH has a greater chance of getting noticed, in a good way, by his WW if he is strong, doesn't put up with the crap, and works to remain in the home with his children.
That may mean him being the first to file for divorce, depending on his location as laws vary.
But what is almost universally true is that courts do not want to change the way things are, so if he leaves, or lets the children move, he's probably not getting them back, regardless how great a dad he might be.
But what is almost universally true is that courts do not want to change the way things are, so if he leaves, or lets the children move, he's probably not getting them back, regardless how great a dad he might be.
Yep, which is exactly why we tell men NOT to leave and not to allow his WW to take the kids without a court order. Plan A does not mean a man bends over and takes it. We often advise them to file for divorce on grounds of adultery so they will have a legal advantage. It means he protects himself and his children legally AND strives to kill the affair while pledging to meet the WW's needs in the FUTURE *IF* she ends her affair and commits to the marriage.
I hope you aren't implying that we just tell men to lie down and allow a tyrant to run right over him. We don't. WE counsel them to fight like hell and take an aggressive approach.
I don't think anyone tells a guy things like that. However, I think many "interpret" plan A to mean just that. Meet her needs, don't make waves, etc.
Now you and I know it's not that way, but when I was a newly betrayed BH, that's how I saw plan A.
It's a fine line. The typical WW isn't going to let her BH meet many needs at all. Probably only the FS and maybe DS if she likes him killing spiders, (LOL.)
But she's probably not willing to talk. After all, if she were, then she would have told him she's not happy and she wants something different. So conversation is probably not a need she'll allow her BH to meet.
SF, do I even have to say. She didn't want it from him before she started her affair, now that she's getting it from someone else, it's unlikely that's a need he'll get to meet for her.
DS, well maybe. Of course if she's not there, if she's already moved out, or is trying to get him out of the home, he's not going to have opportunity to meet that need.
RC, doubtful for reasons similar to above.
FS, probably. I don't think I've ever seen a WW who doesn't accept her BH's money or other financial benefits such as remaining on his insurance policies at work or for the car, or wanting him to keep paying on the mortgage, any car payments, keep using joint credit cards, etc.
So then do we tell the BH to keep meeting needs (plan A) even if those needs help finance the affair?
If you think about the typical WW, any needs she'll allow him to meet probably make it easier for her to have her affair with little benefit to him.
Maybe he keeps her cell phone on his plan so he can look. But most WW's have their own phone that she's not going to allow him to check, so even that's not realistic.
So what needs can a BH meet without being a doormat for the WW who is active in her affair?
Not to mention the whole LB nature of him trying to meet her needs. As someone mentioned above, even his attempts to meet needs are probably taken as LB's because she's saying "why now?" and annoyed that he's now trying to meet her needs, resenting the time where she perceived he wasn't meeting her needs.
That's why I'm saying it's likely pointless to try to meet needs because he'll either be financing the affair, or just pissing her off with his attempts.
Tell her she's free to go, file for divorce and maybe if she's really repentant after she realizes he's a great guy, he can take her back.
If she only comes back because she wants the house or the kids, then he should probably say no.
So I think a BH should do a plan A, but that simply means no LB's. Don't make displays of anger, simply continue to repeat the line that he married her for life and the children and home and whatnot are part of that marriage. If she wants out, he cannot prevent her from going, but he will not abandon the marriage, it's children or assets simply because she no longer loves him.
And file for divorce based on adultery if his state has it. Not to get a divorce, but to send the message that he will protect his family, seeking to be the primary custodian of his children.
If she's an active wayward, she has no place in the lives of her children, and he needs to protect his family from her at this point. Without LB's.
Not even a demand. Simply state the case that he's no willing to remain married to someone who is willing to put her children in such peril as to expose them to another man, and that he is acting to protect his children from her emotional abuse.
In plan A....the betrayed spouse needs to attempt to meet emotional needs whether they are welcomed or not. It lays groundwork to show that there is the possibility, just maybe....they will be met
once the affair dies a natural death.
(In other words, doing so won't kill the affair but allow for future marital recovery once the affair goes belly up)
So, men should still show a willingness to meet the needs during plan A.
No, they should not finance the affair but show a lovely, well funded marital home awaiting attention.
EE, where do you get this stuff? I've seen people on here specifically tell BH's not to finance the affair. Cut off the WW's access to cell phones, credit cards, etc. I've never seen anyone tell a BH that he has to financially support his WW's affair.
As far as meeting needs goes, it's very individual. When I was actively wayward, I actually did allow my H to meet most of the needs you say a WW won't allow her BH to meet. I went out on dates with my H (RC), I talked to him, a lot (C). We had SF. His willingness to meet these needs (many of which were not being met prior to my A, in spite of the fact that I made it very clear that I would like them to be) were what made me ultimately stay and want to work on my M. My H showed me that he actually was willing to listen to me and meet my needs, something I didn't believe prior to my A.
If he had done what you're suggesting, basically tell me I'm free to go and file for divorce, we probably would be, well, divorced right now. I would have likely assumed he wasn't willing to or capable of meeting my needs. Plan A gives the BS a unique opportunity to show the WS what the marriage could be and what they would be giving up if they decide to leave. Taking away that opportunity would probably only increase the chance of the marriage ending in divorce.
Maybe Plan A only succeeds a relatively small percentage of the time, but it seems as though your plan (whatever you call) would have almost no chance at succeeding in saving the marriage at all. It certainly would have killed my marriage.
So are anecdote allowed now?
Writer1, I have no doubt you allowed your BH to meet your needs, congrats, you are in the 15% of WW who were plan A'ed who didn't get your divorce.
But are you the typical case? Given that there are 6x as many WW who got the same plan A, but chose to leave their husbands anyway, I'd say you are not the typical case.
So if we follow your plan, we still the 15% success rate. Is there a plan that will get an even higher success rate, AND even if it doesn't succeed, the guy will not lose his home, his children, etc.
Given how seldom the plan works, my view is we need to first protect the guy from the typical fall out first, losing his home, his children, etc, while at the same time making her husband a more appealing choice to the wayward wife.
My plan may not have worked in your case. However, how many WW's face being a visitor to their children, no longer living in the marital home, having to pay their BH alimony and/or child support, giving up 1/2 of their 401(k) or pensions?
Maybe their husbands wouldn't look so bad to them if those were the costs of their affairs, and they knew they would get nothing from their BH's in terms of wealth or custody of their children.
Now you can argue if they would stay for the right reasons or not, that's why I'd give the BS the right to say no to any WS who wants to return to the marriage.
Or as Ronald Reagan said, "If you cannot make them see the light, make them feel the heat."
Melody already covered how a BH can protect himself (not leaving the marital home or allowing the WW to remove the children from the marital home) while doing Plan A.
What you are basically recommending is that the BH not Plan A at all. You've decided that 15% isn't high enough, so you seem to be saying why bother? Just go straight to divorce and don't even try to save the marriage. You're pretty much hoping that the WW will be forced back into the marriage by making her lose everything (house, kids, etc.). This may technically lead to fewer divorces, but I seriously doubt it will lead to ANY recovered marriages.
The end goal shouldn't be to simply preserve the marriage at all costs. It should be to create a loving, fulfilling marriage for both partners. How would threatening the WS with the loss of children and all marital assets cause them to fall back in love with the BS and want to work on the M? Sure, it may make them stay, but it seems likely that the M will be in even worse shape than it was before, since they will be staying for all the wrong reasons.
What is your goal here?
Writer1,
Since you brought your anecdote here, remember, that I did the plan as described by Dr H. I worked with Steve H until I had no money left.
I asked him if I should still be giving her money, allowing her to use the credit cards, etc, and he said not to make changes to the arrangements as they are.
So I did follow the plan, and guess what, I was one of the 85% of BH's following the plan who got the typical result, divorce.
Now maybe 15% is the best possible outcome. If that's the case, then why not protect BH's and their families from the prospect of the WW not only getting the divorce she'll probably get, but also getting primary custody and a favorable division of assets?
Personally, I think a BH is better off without an unrepentant WW. What I resent is that she can take the house and/or the kids too.
Until the typical outcomes of following the plans changes and given my personal experience with following and executing the plan and ending up a visitor to my child, I cannot say in good faith that it would be my choice in any future action.
If a guy is probably going to end up divorced, I recommend that he end up divorced and the primary custodian of his children and remain in his home.
Change the typical outcome from following the plan and divorce in America and I'll gladly change my views.
But as long as the chance of success is so low and the chance of prevailing if he's responding to her divorce request is also low, I simply recommend he defend his castle from the enemy within, his WW.
EE...
Mr. W met my needs AND protected himself financially, on the custody front and beyond -- AT THE SAME TIME...It is possible to do both...That IS Plan A -- I am sorry that is not how you understood it...
Mrs. W
EE, I think the idea here was you'd let Pepperband's thread be and were welcome to bring it up again on another thread?
Again, ask yourselves if you are the typical WW?
I understand plan A, as presented here. I also clearly understood the words presented by Steve H who said for me not to make any changes to my at the time WW's financial arrangements.
So his advice essentially was to continue to pay for her car, her gym membership, her cell phone, etc while she was having her affair in her rented love shack.
So what is the real advice? If they only need you can meet is FS, then keep meeting it?
What needs will the typical WW allow her BH to meet?
I don't think it helps to canvas the 15% of WW's who are here as they don't represent typical.
What do the other 85% who were plan A'ed by their BH's and chose divorce anyway say? I'd think their answers are far more useful than the answers of those who stayed based on the plan as it is today.
What was it that made their husbands still unappealing 85% of the time when following the plans as outlined and possibly even coached by the MB staff?
That would be some really helpful information for the BH. Far more valuable than hearing from the minority who are attracted back by husbands working the plan.
What prevented the other 85% of WW from returning to their husbands executing the very same plan?
EE, I think the idea here was you'd let Pepperband's thread be and were welcome to bring it up again on another thread?
That really doesn't square up with the title of the thread.
Plan A your WW or kick her to the curb?
Seems both or anything in between the two extremes is within the scope of the question.
Now if she wanted to discuss, Plan A, why you shouldn't kick your WW to the curb, then perhaps she could ask that question. But she didn't, she posed the question presented as the title, right?
What prevented the other 85% of WW from returning to their husbands executing the very same plan?
Plan B is about riding out the affair to see what the wayward chooses. Its about realizing you can only control yourself, not your spouse.
You do the best you can and
let them choose.
The waywards who choose divorce in spite of being plan A-d and plan B-d made the choice not to end the affair and recover.
Its that simple.
What prevented the other 85% of WW from returning to their husbands executing the very same plan?
Impossible to answer, since they're not here. Maybe you could ask that question on the TOW website. A lot of them may have ended up there.
Also impossible to quantify, since it is difficult to judge whether or not the BHs actually did a true Plan A. Please understand, I am in no way judging your Plan A here, but it is quite possible (probable even) that many of the BH's in that 85% did not stick to a true Plan A, or did not stick to it long enough. This could be for a variety of very legitimate reasons, but it is certainly going to affect the numbers.
Remember, most affairs die a natural death within 2 years. Some die much faster and some die much slower, but they almost always die. Plan A is generally only recommended for 6 months for a BH. After that, he is advised to move into Plan B, mostly to protect his own LB from so many withdrawals that he loses all love for his WW and no longer desires to work on the marriage once the affair does end.
You've only presented half the argument here by stating that Plan A only works 15% of the time. You've completely left out the second part of the equation, which is Plan B.
True, so perhaps even if BH's were perfect, not just in their minds, but really perfect, WW's would still choose them only 15% of the time.
But has anyone done a "debrief" of WW's who were pursued using the MB methods, Plan A, exposure, plan B and still chose other then their BH?
I would think that checking with those who didn't choose the MB'ing BH would be a good idea to see what was needed to make the plans more effective, or even if there were anything that could be done.
Perhaps 85% of WW are defective? (Now there is a provocative statement!) Perhaps 85% of BH's executing the plans are not worth the effort? (Does that counter the previous provocative statement?)
Or perhaps the plans need some adjustment based on the nature of the WW, or they need some external help to slow the WW down in her quest to be rid of her husband?
What I've proposed in the law changes, is to provide that sort of marital speed-bump to the WW plans. Sure, she can be rid of her BH, but the cost will be far higher than it is today.
But I do believe there is more merit in asking the 85% why they refused their MB'ing husbands than there is in polling the 15% who remained with their MB'ing husbands in the end. Especially if the objective is to save more marriages, wouldn't an "autopsy" on the failure to save the marriage help MB science to have fewer failed marriages?
Actually, I've said the MB plan, which includes plan A, exposure and plan B only work 15% of the time, as was suggested in the initial post.
Maybe I misunderstand, but I believe it's the whole package that only works for a BH 15% of the time.
Actually, I've said the MB plan, which includes plan A, exposure and plan B only work 15% of the time, as was suggested in the initial post.
Maybe I misunderstand, but I believe it's the whole package that only works for a BH 15% of the time.
I don't know about the statistics. Maybe that's a question you could take to Dr. Harley himself. He would be in a much better position to answer this question than anyone here.
As far as changing the law goes, I think most people here do not favor no-fault divorce. Most of also aren't lawyers or in any real position to do anything about it. It's good that you feel impassioned about this and that you want to fight to get things changed. We've made divorce far too easy in this country, which is probably why we have such a high divorce rate.
I've presented it before, but I've not yet received an answer from Dr H. So I'm not confident that asking the question again will get an answer.
EE, I think the idea here was you'd let Pepperband's thread be and were welcome to bring it up again on another thread?
That really doesn't square up with the title of the thread.
Maybe not, but I'm pretty sure Pepperband clarified her intent in subsequent posts. Her feelings looked pretty clear to me.
I'm just curious why you would go about this in a way guaranteed to upset her when you could go about it by starting a new thread and not upset her.
Marcos,
Really, are you saying that this sort of response is her saying that my take on the subject is not her intent to actually discuss the plan "kick her to the curb?"
Because I've not yet seen her say she really didn't want to discuss the option of kicking the WW to the curb.
Now if I've missed where she asked that we only discuss plan A, and not any other options, then please point it out.
However, I still stand by my objection that my view is being singled out, while others are allowed to present their views, their anecdotes and whatever without experiencing the same complaints as I get when I do nothing more than what others are doing in their participation in this thread.
If the standard is no anecdotes, then let's apply it to all, not just me.
If the standard is only the topic, then let's apply it to all, not just me.
If the standard is it's not about a person, then let's apply it anyone, including those who choose to be offended by the observations of others.
I don't mind a standard being enforced, as long as it's enforced consistently and not just imposed upon one while others are given license to violate that standard.
Given the topic, I believe it's a legitimate question to ask if there is a means to make the plans even more successful. If there is something that will make the plans more effective at restoring romantic love in marriages, or if there are that many defective people out there, or something in between.
If the plan works 15% of the time, then that means it fails 85% of the time. What about that plan makes it fail 85% of the time? Is it worth the emotional time and energy to engage in a plan with only a 15% success rate? Are there better means to keep the family intact?
Those are all very legitimate questions that I believe are part of the initial question.
This whole thread is nothing but blaming the BH. He didn't meet her needs, he didn't hear her, he didn't take the right actions when she had her affair.
You are flat out WRONG.
Apologize to me now.
However, I still stand by my objection that my view is being singled out, while others are allowed to present their views, their anecdotes and whatever without experiencing the same complaints as I get when I do nothing more than what others are doing in their participation in this thread.
The purpose of this thread, and this forum for that matter, is to discuss/explore effective ways of implementing The MARRIAGE BUILDERS PLANS.
If you, or others, want to discuss a plan(s) of action which is NOT any MB plan, start your own thread.
MarKos spells his name with a K.
Sometimes you may hear alternative opinions that conflict with Dr. Harley's Ten Basic Concepts. These are often raised by those who have not solved their own marital problems, but still feel they are qualified to advise others. When this happens you can expect some members to explain why their approach won't work, and why Marriage Builders� offers a better solution. There are many who are offended when that happens, but please keep in mind that the ultimate purpose of this Forum is to discuss and learn Marriage Builders� concepts.
If the plan works 15% of the time, then that means it fails 85% of the time. What about that plan makes it fail 85% of the time? Is it worth the emotional time and energy to engage in a plan with only a 15% success rate? Are there better means to keep the family intact?
Those are all very legitimate questions that I believe are part of the initial question.
Dr Harley says that Plan A works to end an affair
that does not end on D Day only 15% of the time.
Some affairs will will end on D Day, for various reasons.
The affair might be a "fling" that the WS hoped to get away with, never having intended to end their marriage.
The affair might be a "fling' that the OP hoped to get away with, never having intended to end THEIR marriage.
Exposure might well act to take the gloss off the affair and show it for the dirty act it is. It might wake up the WS to how unacceptable the affair is in other people's eyes. For these and other reasons, the affair might end on D Day.
But when an affair does not end on D Day, Dr Harley recommends Plan A for the BS who wants to save the marriage.
Plan A has been shown to end an active affair and make the WS choose the marriage in only 15% of cases (where the affair did not end on D Day). So, why does Dr Harley recommend this seemingly ineffective measure?
He recognises that the majority of affairs will end within six months from exposure, and almost all will end within two years of exposure, regardless of anything the BS does or doesn't do. That means that a BS could just wait for an affair to end it will end without their input.
However, if a couple goes as far as separating, there is a chance that they will not get back together even after the affair ends. Either of them might move on by the time it ends.
If the BS wants to increase the possibility that the WS will return when the affair ends, then a marriage that was made to look attractive offers the best chance of return.
Unless plan A leaves the wayward spouse with the impression that returning home is an attractive choice, separation can become permanent. So before implementing plan B, you want to be sure that the last thing your spouse remembers about you is the care and thoughtfulness you offered in plan A. That way, the separation can help create, "absence makes the heart grow fonder."I don't see that Dr Harley specifically advises a BS to plan A himself into financial ruin. I do think think, though, that his Plan A advice would benefit from warning the BS against allowing the WS to take advantage financially. My reading shows me financial ruin can happen to BWs as much as to BHs. A WH can spend family money on the affair by leasing apartments, paying for hotels and goodness knows that else, to the point where a BW and her children can lose their home.
I see sense in Dr Harley's advice to carry out Plan A. For the 85% who do not manage to end an ongoing affair during Plan A, the plan will make them an attractive choice SHOULD THE BS WANT THEM BACK when the affair ends.
If your response, on D Day, or when you realise that the affair is continuing, is to reject the WS, then you don't need Dr Harley's advice to recover your marriage. If you feel that you want to give recovery a chance, then Plan A followed by Plan B is the best way to encourage your spouse back to you at some point in the future when you are separated.
There is no need to lose your house, money and children
because of Plan A. Plan A does not suggest that you gamble with those things.
What are Plan A and Plan B?
I'll try to do some research and maybe even write Dr. Harley about the famous 15% figure but my take on it is:
-It's 15% of Plan A's are successful in breaking up the affair AND resulting in a reconciliation.
-It does not indicate that 85% of BH's (or BW's) fail (divorce) as MANY of them [affairs] ended on or even long before D-day and many others end in Plan B (again...the 15% figure is, I'm guessing, the best ESTIMATE Dr. Harley gives as to how often a Plan A will work to bust up the affair that continues after D-day).
-Under the MB plan - divorce isn't failure
If you are resentful, which I think is what I'm reading, your resentment would be more properly placed upon the judge that decided your case and/or the attorney that represented you. Perhaps your states laws as well. But the MB plan, as I see it advised on the board includes fighting for the marriage AND backside legal preparations to insure the best custody and financial outcomes.
With BH's I also attempt to clearly indicate that there is marriage saving advice and legal advice and they SOMETIMES conflict. By fighting for your marriage you may very well be risking what could be a better divorce (financial and custodial) settlement.
[wayward spouses will sometimes give up a lot to settle quickly and quietly in order to be with their soulmate with as few people knowing as possible...however, their "entitlement" is very often systemic and they try to take it all regardless]
To me...the risk/reward is worth it.
To you...it's not
No biggie.
Regardless...it is my contention that the MB program for busting up affairs and saving marriages OR saving the sanity and integrity of destroyed persons as they process things on their way to divorce is successful 98% of the time.
ON YOUR OWN THREAD MAYBE: Are you in that 2%? Do you regret even trying or do you wish you had tried AND protected your backside better? Absent MB would you have won more custody? Did MB help you at all?
Mr. W
Edit - sorry pep, I was drafting this at work over the course of several hours
-It's 15% of Plan A's are successful in breaking up the affair AND resulting in a reconciliation.
-It does not indicate that 85% of BH's (or BW's) fail (divorce) as MANY of them [affairs] ended on or even long before D-day and many others end in Plan B
I feel that EE has never posted on the basis stated above - that most affairs end without Plan A being necessary. Almost all affairs end within two years of exposure, and many of them end within six months of exposure.
To my reading, EE has always posted on the basis that only 15% of marriages are restored by the implementation of Plan A. The remaining 85% of the time, the marriage is not restored.
That is not what Dr Harley writes.
If the plan works 15% of the time, then that means it fails 85% of the time. What about that plan makes it fail 85% of the time? Is it worth the emotional time and energy to engage in a plan with only a 15% success rate? Are there better means to keep the family intact?
Those are all very legitimate questions that I believe are part of the initial question.
Dr Harley says that Plan A works to end an affair
that does not end on D Day only 15% of the time.
I think that's the majority who are here contemplating plan A. After all, if they are contemplating recovery, then it's another questino.
Some affairs will will end on D Day, for various reasons.
The affair might be a "fling" that the WS hoped to get away with, never having intended to end their marriage.
The affair might be a "fling' that the OP hoped to get away with, never having intended to end THEIR marriage.
Exposure might well act to take the gloss off the affair and show it for the dirty act it is. It might wake up the WS to how unacceptable the affair is in other people's eyes. For these and other reasons, the affair might end on D Day.
But when an affair does not end on D Day, Dr Harley recommends Plan A for the BS who wants to save the marriage.
I understand. So how many end with exposure and the legitimate demand to end the affair?
Plan A has been shown to end an active affair and make the WS choose the marriage in only 15% of cases (where the affair did not end on D Day). So, why does Dr Harley recommend this seemingly ineffective measure?
He recognises that the majority of affairs will end within six months from exposure, and almost all will end within two years of exposure, regardless of anything the BS does or doesn't do. That means that a BS could just wait for an affair to end it will end without their input.
However, if a couple goes as far as separating, there is a chance that they will not get back together even after the affair ends. Either of them might move on by the time it ends.
Isn't that how most WW conduct their affairs? They've either moved out, or tried to move out their BH? What is the typical mode of the WW? Is she at home, or has she moved out, or moved out the BH?
If the BS wants to increase the possibility that the WS will return when the affair ends, then a marriage that was made to look attractive offers the best chance of return.
Unless plan A leaves the wayward spouse with the impression that returning home is an attractive choice, separation can become permanent. So before implementing plan B, you want to be sure that the last thing your spouse remembers about you is the care and thoughtfulness you offered in plan A. That way, the separation can help create, "absence makes the heart grow fonder."
So again, what does the BH do when the WW has essentially already emotionally separated herself from her husband, not to mention is in her affair.
I've asked the legitimate question, how does the BH effectively meet the EN's of the WW when she is unwilling to even be in the same home with him?
This gets back to what is the typical WW? Is she open to his meeting her needs, or are his attempts to even meet his needs treated as love busters?
If that's the case, then is it any wonder that the plans are only effective 15% of the time for a BH?
I don't see that Dr Harley specifically advises a BS to plan A himself into financial ruin. I do think think, though, that his Plan A advice would benefit from warning the BS against allowing the WS to take advantage financially. My reading shows me financial ruin can happen to BWs as much as to BHs. A WH can spend family money on the affair by leasing apartments, paying for hotels and goodness knows that else, to the point where a BW and her children can lose their home.
I see sense in Dr Harley's advice to carry out Plan A. For the 85% who do not manage to end an ongoing affair during Plan A, the plan will make them an attractive choice SHOULD THE BS WANT THEM BACK when the affair ends.
If your response, on D Day, or when you realise that the affair is continuing, is to reject the WS, then you don't need Dr Harley's advice to recover your marriage. If you feel that you want to give recovery a chance, then Plan A followed by Plan B is the best way to encourage your spouse back to you at some point in the future when you are separated.
There is no need to lose your house, money and children
because of Plan A. Plan A does not suggest that you gamble with those things.
What are Plan A and Plan B?No you lose them because the court doesn't ask about marital fidelity and chooses to give custody and assets to the WW, regardless what plan the BH used.
The whole thing stinks and so far, I've not seen anyone present ideas that would provide a greater than 15% success rate for the BH.
Maybe I have the numbers all wrong. I've asked Dr H to provide specifics regarding the numbers. What is the percentage of marriages saved when there is a BH following the plans? What is the percentage when it's a BW?
If different, why are BW's or BH's more successful? Is it due to the actions of the betrayed spouse or the nature of the respective WS's?
But so far, I've not seen Dr H sit down and discuss these questions.
Maybe I'm all wet. It wouldn't be the first time I've misunderstood something. But given what I've experienced and what I believe I understand, I really don't see the value of trying to win back a WW.
Perhaps if I had prevailed with MB, I'd see otherwise. I'm not saying MB is a bad way to run your marriage, I think it's the way to go.
But winning back a wayward spouse, I'm not convinced, and I was a paying customer.
EE, I can't answer everything you have raised in the post above. I get all muddled up if I try to do that.
Can I ask about finances just for now:
Do you think that having done Plan A made your financial and custody settlements worse than if you'd gone straight for divorce?
Do you think that having done Plan A made no difference your financial and custody settlements?
I hardly think, given what you write, that having done Plan A made them better, but please let me know if they did.
Maybe I'm all wet. It wouldn't be the first time I've misunderstood something. But given what I've experienced and what I believe I understand, I really don't see the value of trying to win back a WW.
But winning back a wayward spouse, I'm not convinced, and I was a paying customer.
So then don't do it. That's fine for you.
But this plan is here for people who do want to try. This is what Dr. Harley recommends if the BS wants to save their marriage.
Why do you have such a hard time with someone else following the plan just because it didn't work for you and you personally wouldn't try it again?
I have written Dr H, several times. Exactly ZERO responses, what now. Perhaps I have an entirely resistible personality, LOL.
I'll try to do some research and maybe even write Dr. Harley about the famous 15% figure but my take on it is:
-It's 15% of Plan A's are successful in breaking up the affair AND resulting in a reconciliation.
-It does not indicate that 85% of BH's (or BW's) fail (divorce) as MANY of them [affairs] ended on or even long before D-day and many others end in Plan B (again...the 15% figure is, I'm guessing, the best ESTIMATE Dr. Harley gives as to how often a Plan A will work to bust up the affair that continues after D-day).
So what percentage of those who confront on D-day have success? Given what writer1 says, I doubt she would think it's even as high as 15%.
Yet yours is a legitimate question. Is the rate 15% of plan A's or 15% of those who try the entire program, which is from discovery until recovery or divorce.
-Under the MB plan - divorce isn't failure
I think that's a convenient definition. It's like saying if you don't end up dead, then the earthquake wasn't fatal.
I do understand the idea behind that, that you don't want to be married to someone who would hurt you time and time again.
However, I wouldn't call it a MB success to be divorced and a visitor to your child either.
If you are resentful, which I think is what I'm reading, your resentment would be more properly placed upon the judge that decided your case and/or the attorney that represented you. Perhaps your states laws as well. But the MB plan, as I see it advised on the board includes fighting for the marriage AND backside legal preparations to insure the best custody and financial outcomes.
The mistake I made was allowing my WW to take my child out of the marital home. That was before I knew of the affair. I'm wiser now, I wouldn't let a wife do that, not to mention I went ahead and made sure I wouldn't father any more children unless there was some sort of divine intervention.
As I've said all along, the problem is we tolerate Wayward Spouses. Our courts are so politically correct that we can't ask if the one who wants the divorce is having an affair with someone else. Nor can we base property and custody decisions on that information.
It's not my lawyers fault or the judges fault. They have to deal with the laws as they are. So the working dad will lose to the unfaithful stay at home mom every day.
Why? Precedence. She took care of the child before she had her affair, so she should be the primary caretaker after she has her affair.
BS!
With BH's I also attempt to clearly indicate that there is marriage saving advice and legal advice and they SOMETIMES conflict. By fighting for your marriage you may very well be risking what could be a better divorce (financial and custodial) settlement.
This is why, given the low probability of actually saving the marriage, that I tend to err on the side of making the strongest legal position possible. Don't leave the home, don't allow the WW unsupervised visits with your children, seek to file for cause rather than no-fault if your venue supports that.
[wayward spouses will sometimes give up a lot to settle quickly and quietly in order to be with their soulmate with as few people knowing as possible...however, their "entitlement" is very often systemic and they try to take it all regardless]
Their entitlement can be systemic in multiple senses. Waywards are selfish, so they will "feel" entitled to stuff and the kids.
But also, in cases like mine where she was largely a stay at home mom and I worked so she could be a stay at home mom, she has the advantage of precedence. Add in that our state supreme courts has ruled that infidelity is NOT to be considered in custody decisions, the wayward will be the primary custodian 99 and 44/100ths percent of the time.
To me...the risk/reward is worth it.
To you...it's not
Well of course, you won your wife back, me, executing the very same plan didn't. You were not turned into a visitor to your child by the decisions of others. Would you expect any different?
No biggie.
Regardless...it is my contention that the MB program for busting up affairs and saving marriages OR saving the sanity and integrity of destroyed persons as they process things on their way to divorce is successful 98% of the time.
ON YOUR OWN THREAD MAYBE: Are you in that 2%? Do you regret even trying or do you wish you had tried AND protected your backside better? Absent MB would you have won more custody? Did MB help you at all?
Mr. W
Edit - sorry pep, I was drafting this at work over the course of several hours
I believe it helped me be a better man. I don't think I could have protected my backside or my family any better. The cards I was dealt were a losing hand. There was no way to play it to a winning hand given what I knew.
The only thing I regret is allowing my WW who I did not yet know was wayward to take my child out of the marital home.
Perhaps I could have continued with criminal charges when she assaulted me, but I don't think it really would have made any difference and simply prolonged the agony.
But given that things were so stacked against me, I do believe it was largely wasted time to try to win her back. I think I should have just filed for divorce when she was talking of moving out and filed to have my child ordered to remain in the marital home.
But how can one know their spouse is having an affair when they've not experienced that before? How many BH's like me come here not even believing their wife is wayward and only learning months after the fact that she is in fact, wayward?
Now I know the signs and I simply won't tolerate that sort of abuse a second time.
EE, I can't answer everything you have raised in the post above. I get all muddled up if I try to do that.
Can I ask about finances just for now:
Do you think that having done Plan A made your financial and custody settlements worse than if you'd gone straight for divorce?
It certainly cost me almost as much for an hour of Steve Harley's time as it did for an hour with my lawyer, so I'm not sure that it was an effective use of my resources to spend time being coached by Steve H, especially given the outcome.
He certainly did not advise me to ensure that my wife (didn't know she was wayward) didn't take our child with her. Not that I expected to get legal advice, but he had to suspect that she was having an affair, after all, everyone else on the boards said so, yet no such advice from him. So I'm thinking at the very least a warning that she may be in an affair, that it looks like it's an affair, so protect your family, etc...
So from that perspective, at the very least the coaching did not help me retain a position where I would be the primary custodian of my child.
Do you think that having done Plan A made no difference your financial and custody settlements?
See above. It certainly did not help. Perhaps if I got a warning from a professional, I would have taken different legal steps. I took no steps. Perhaps even the advice to seek counsel to protect your parental rights would have been a good idea.
I don't recall such advice being presented.
I hardly think, given what you write, that having done Plan A made them better, but please let me know if they did.
Nope, it just added to the marital debt that was split 1/3rd for her and 2/3rds for me.
What I think it did was to prevent me from filing for divorce. I may have had an advantage if I were the one who chose the action and she had to respond based on my timing. She would have had to respond to my requests for custody, child support, etc, instead of it being the other way around.
I think there is a tendency to find a reason to say yes rather than deny the request. So if I initiated the action, I had first say over what was requested and the timeline.
Plan A delayed that and she filed, etc.
Properly done, Plan A does not make her happy, it makes her furious because it intrudes on the fantasy she is living in and brings the light of truth into the darkness of deception where the affair exists.
Your WW will NOT be happy with your Plan A.
Do NOT gauge your Plan A performance on HER moods.Just want to testify on this. I had no freaking idea what Plan A was, no idea about MB when Pearl Harbor was bombed... but what I implemented in the smoke and ashes of ILYBINILWY was, to the letter, Plan A.
Was she happy? He77 no. What she was engaged in was a "kick-her-to-the-curb" situation - and I unknowingly dropped her off each day to work with her AP for 2 or 3 weeks.
Plan A temporarily breaks the fog of self-entitlement - you are doing the opposite of the mental justifications WW has developed for her actions.
She doesn't believe it, views it as temporary, and keeps trucking.
The longer this goes on, the thinner the justifications get, the angrier the WW.
That's not to say that they won't selfishly soak it up like a sponge the entire time.
You CAN'T guage by her actions for several reasons;
1) she is going to pull off mental gymnastics to continue to justify an active A, and may approach you with a "don't matter" attitude.
2) she may be cake-eating entirely. You will get waivering and waffling comments and responses from a WW if you slip in your Plan A. Having their needs met by two men is
the goal. Those aren't "little glimpses of hope," gentleman. They are tugs on the pole to make sure the hook is set so they can continue keeping you on the line.
3) a perpetual Plan A is a marriage with 3 people. If it doesn't break the A, eventually it will simply build her self-entitlement.
As the BS, you will
always be better supplied than the AP. You are the spouse, you have the time and the memories, YOU SHOULD HAVE THE GD HOUSE, you are the father of the children. All the AP has is a fantasy that cannot support itself without all that
you provide.
Dr. Harley states that affair-based relationships statistically have a lifespan of 3 years before their rotten foundation fails them. That's a MAXIMUM, not a minimum.
This is the entire logic behind the Plan A ---> Plan B approach.
Offer the cake eater a sweeter-tasting cake, let them gorge for a bit... then yank that SOB off the table. The worm-bread they are left to eat won't seem so great then.
EE, are you saying that people on the board warned you that she was having an affair?
Did you ever directly ask Steve about this possibility? Did you ever tell him that people here were saying that it was an affair, or did you ever in any way directly raise the possibility of one with him?
So what percentage of those who confront on D-day have success? Given what writer1 says, I doubt she would think it's even as high as 15%.
I don't recall ever saying anything about this at all. I have no idea what the statistics are regarding this. I have heard of quite a few others having success with ending the A on D-day, mostly thanks to nuclear exposure.
No, my A didn't end on D-day, but then my H didn't do a nuclear exposure either. The A may well have ended much sooner if he had. I don't know. I imagine it certainly would have put a lot more pressure on me, especially if he had exposed to our teenaged children.
SugarCane,
Let me see if I understand. Are you saying most affairs end on D day, when the BH confronts the WW, she just up and ends her affair more than 50% of the time?
Or is it just the WS?
Are the results the same for a BH or a BW. Do WH's end their affairs more than BW's at this point?
I think the number who actually end their affairs on D-day is remarkably small, especially when we are talking about the WW. Given what we've read about WW's, I think that number is even smaller than the 15% who end their affairs as a result of the BH's plan A.
But again, let's put the question of numbers to Dr Harley. I've asked before. Perhaps if someone else were to ask we could get some real, concrete numbers.
How often do affairs end on D-Day? Are the figures different for WW ending their affairs vs WH's.
Ditto for the effectiveness of the MB program in restoring a marriage? Do the figures for WH and WW's match. Does a BH or BW have any advantage one over the other relative to the overall outcome.
How can a BH protect his parental rights when faced with a WW and still effectively seek to win back his WW?
Those are all good questions and I hope Dr H shows up soon and gives concrete answers to every last one of them and more.
-It's 15% of Plan A's are successful in breaking up the affair AND resulting in a reconciliation.
-It does not indicate that 85% of BH's (or BW's) fail (divorce) as MANY of them [affairs] ended on or even long before D-day and many others end in Plan B
I feel that EE has never posted on the basis stated above - that most affairs end without Plan A being necessary. Almost all affairs end within two years of exposure, and many of them end within six months of exposure.
To my reading, EE has always posted on the basis that only 15% of marriages are restored by the implementation of Plan A. The remaining 85% of the time, the marriage is not restored.
That is not what Dr Harley writes.
But how can one know their spouse is having an affair when they've not experienced that before? How many BH's like me come here not even believing their wife is wayward and only learning months after the fact that she is in fact, wayward?
MANY come here CLUELESS of whether their spouse is cheating and, even if they do know, have not a clue what to do about it?
We can't predict their outcome...all we can hope to do is coach them along the way. We may be coaching as gigantic underdogs but like it or not the game is being played. They can play it alone or they can seek and obtain advice from professionals and persons like you and me that have gone before them. Hopefully, we can tick up their liklihood of "success" [reconciliation or minimized regretful divorce] a bit but most assuredly we can support them down this unknown road of infidelity/divorce or infidelity/reconciliation.
I do my best. If I didn't think there was hope for success (divorce or reconciliation), I would not waste my time.
Everyone....can be successful here.
I, like everyone else here on MB are sincerely sympathetic to how much your ex-wife screwed you. I think that even if the "ODDS" given on MB were 5% you and I would have still tried. It's NOT the odds. Back in 2005 scouring the web looking for "hope" and someone to tell me it was going to be OK. I don't think it's our place as COACHES to kill a persons hope. We can attempt to direct them down the path towards acceptance that there is little (and eventually no) hope but it's still their call.
Mr. W
EE, are you saying that people on the board warned you that she was having an affair?
Did you ever directly ask Steve about this possibility? Did you ever tell him that people here were saying that it was an affair, or did you ever in any way directly raise the possibility of one with him?
He asked me. I said I didn't think an affair was something she could do.
He proceeded from there. He had the same information, the e-mails, everything.
If nothing else, he could have said anyone is capable of having an affair (after all, isn't that in several of the books?) and we shouldn't rule out that possibility yet, so protect yourself, your family, etc.
Nope, his focus was on filling out questionnaires and seeing if I could get her to fill them out, get her to join the phone call, getting me to think of what I might think her complaints about LB's might be, what EN's I might be able to meet, if I even knew what they were.
When I did find out about the affair and I exposed it, it seems he was disappointed that I exposed the affair.
She certainly didn't end it. It was still on-going about two years later when she finally got the divorce she wanted.
I sure didn't want to be married to her anymore, so that part of the plan was a success.
But I'll never call being a visitor to my child a success by any stretch of the imagination. So please, don't peddle the outcome as any measure of success. It's just insensitive.
But understand, a BS being the visitor to his child is never going to be defined as success in my book.
Success may not take a restored marriage. But if the BH isn't the primary custodian of his child, then I call it failure.
In fact, I even gave Steve Harley the name of the man she was having an affair with. She said he was "a friend."
No sounding of the alarm by him was made.
Why? (I know you can't answer, but I'm asking.)
SugarCane,
Let me see if I understand. Are you saying most affairs end on D day, when the BH confronts the WW, she just up and ends her affair more than 50% of the time?
Or is it just the WS?
Are the results the same for a BH or a BW. Do WH's end their affairs more than BW's at this point?
I think the number who actually end their affairs on D-day is remarkably small, especially when we are talking about the WW. Given what we've read about WW's, I think that number is even smaller than the 15% who end their affairs as a result of the BH's plan A.
EE, I am not saying anything at all. I wouldn't dare. I have no expertise in this area.
I am summarising what Dr Harley says:
As it turns out, most affairs end within six months of their seeing the light of day (being revealed to their family and friends), and almost all affairs end without leading to marriage. Even those few that end in marriage have only a 25% rate of success. That's because affairs are based on dishonesty and thoughtlessness for the feelings of others. That same dishonesty and thoughtlessness eventually turns on the lovers themselves, and the affair is destroyed by those same flaws that made it possible in the first place. What drives affairs is passion, not commitment, and once the passion wanes, there is nothing to help the lovers restore their passion. Marriage, on the other hand, especially with children, has many factors that motivate couples to restore their passion for each other after passion has waned. So when passion is gone from an affair, a wayward spouse is usually motivated to return to the betrayed spouse by all of these other factors. For most, it's a logical choice.Dr Harley says that "most" affairs end within 6 months, and that most of those that continue end without leading to marriage.
You say that YOU THINK "the number who actually end their affair on -day is remarkably small, especially when talking about the WW".
Well, if you are going to reject Dr Harley's findings, you are always going to prove yourself right. Most WWs leave, because you says so, regardless of what Dr Harley has found.
5000 posts EE..
Everybody Wang Chung Tonight
He asked me. I said I didn't think an affair was something she could do.
He proceeded from there. He had the same information, the e-mails, everything.
If nothing else, he could have said anyone is capable of having an affair (after all, isn't that in several of the books?) and we shouldn't rule out that possibility yet, so protect yourself, your family, etc.
EE, this is a horrible story. I am so sorry about what happened.
But you were not really doing Plan A, were you, if you were acting on the basis that there was no affair? Properly used, you would have attempted to meet the ENs that she would allow you to meet, while negotiating the end of the affair. When the affair did not end within a reasonable time - say, six months - you would have gone to Plan B, having laid the groundwork for her return should the affair end. You would have told her why you could not continue being hurt by her affair, you would have given her a Plan B letter with the conditions for her return, and you have made it clear that the door back to the marriage was still open - for now.
Plan A would have been carried out with the strategic intention of either ending her affair, or making you an attractive husband to return to after Plan B. Plan A was never done.
How can you criticise Plan A for failing you, when you were not in fact using it to fight an affair?
I'm asking. Because Dr H has also said that the WW's leaving and choosing divorce are not the ones who are abuse or betrayed. He says he can't get those women to choose to leave their abusive husbands.
So he says these women are neglected.
I said I believe most WW's have already shut out their husbands, long before they physically leave, force out their BH's or start their affairs.
If I'm wrong, Dr H can tell us all. I can take it, I've been wrong before, and I'll be wrong at least once more in my life, if even about being wrong about something, LOL.
We already know that plan A is prescribed for differing times for BH's and BW's. We know the typical EN's are different. We know that 2/3rds of all divorces are filed by women and I believe I understand Dr H to tell us that the majority of these women are not leaving an abusive or unfaithful husband.
So wouldn't it stand to reason that there are differences in the plan and it's effectiveness when faced with a WW vs a WH?
Given the general differences as well as the general outcomes, it stands to reason that the typical BH will have far harder road to hoe than the typical BW?
Again, Dr H is welcome to visit and tell me I'm wrong, provide specific numeric details of the relative success rates, etc, and I'll re-examine my views.
But so far, he's not come on here and said I'm all wrong, I don't know what I'm talking about, and so forth.
But let me throw this little nugget out there.
What has Dr H said he would do if Joyce were to betray him. Would he try to win her back? He says no.
Is that due to his personality, or having witnessed the plans being executed thousands of times and wanting no part of it?
To add to the above:
Plan A as Dr Harley envisages it would have included exposing the affair. Experience here shows that this can be effective in ending the affair if done early. If done after a long period while the couple has lived apart, then friends and family might feel that finding a new partner whilst separated is no crime. They might buy the WW's argument that the marriage was effectively dead when she left - or that she found her AP AFTER she left.
If you had exposed when people on the board told you to snoop and find the dirt, your wife would not have been able to play the tricks she successfully played on you. We cannot say that your marriage would have been restored, but it certainly stood no chance of being restored if you did not directly fight the affair. Endlessly meeting her ENS only led to cake eating, and to your eventually losing out to a determined OM who knew what he was fighting. Dr Harley actually warns about the cake-eating part of Plan A, and warns that it should not be done indefinitely. It should not be used to help entrench and embed an affair.
I'm so sorry that you lost your son, EE. I would NEVER describe that as a successful outcome of any plan. However, I don't think you did Plan A, or that Plan A is what Steve Harley was coaching you on (since he accepted your denial of an affair). I agree that he SHOULD have coached you on Plan A, and I agree that you were royally misled and shafted by your wife - but I don't see where Plan A is to blame for your loss.
Again, I am terribly sorry for your loss.
But understand, a BS being the visitor to his child is never going to be defined as success in my book.
Success may not take a restored marriage. But if the BH isn't the primary custodian of his child, then I call it failure.
We live in a fallen world...there are an endless supply of guys ***EDIT*** who will steal someone's wife AND someone's children using the legal system to their fullest advantage. ***EDIT***
Hope&pray used MB, tried to save his marriage and ended up winning full custody of his 18 month old child. Wife moved out of state to live with OM (who was a physician as I recall) and WELL AFTER the divorce called him up to come save her. He did...stealing his wife back in the middle of the night. OM tried to hire a hitman to kill Hope&pray and ended up in jail.
Eph425's stay at home wife tried to steal his kids by absconding them away over the Christmas holiday's 4 or 5 years ago. The judge saw it as alienation and ordered them back home. WW ended up in the hospital due to eating disorder and Eph eventually won primary custody of his kids. 4 years later...WW takes off to Europe for 8 months.
SickofLimbo's legal case for custody of any kind was VERY weak when he got here. He was just back from being deployed and had to do several months of training out of state. Over the course of attempting to save his marriage he was actually buying time to establish himself as a VERY involved parent and one entitled to, at least, a 50-50 custody arrangement. Kick her to the curb advice would have been disasterous for sick of limbo.
On the other hand...Heartsore could have obtained a 50-50ish custody deal if he'd have settled up front. Instead, he fought to save his marriage and got screwed. Wife moved with OM and the kids 50 miles away making visitation much
more difficult. Talking to Heartsore within the last year...he's remarried with a new child and as happy as he can be with the outcome. I asked him specifically if he regretted trying and he said "no...100% no".
Mr. Wondering
He was coaching me in plan A, as she was moving out, getting an apartment, trying to find herself. So while the affair was not known, the plan was plan A. If nothing more than to convince her to either not move out and to convince her to return home once she did move out.
It took from 9/03 until near Thanksgiving to figure out she was having an affair. By then, she was moved out, child in her apartment. Immediate nuclear exposure, cut off all access to joint accounts, no longer financing the affair, etc.
I was duped and at that point, I didn't trust anyone, felt betrayed that I was trying to fix all my stuff, operating on the assumption I was a bad husband, controlling, etc.
Nope, it was all a smoke-screen. She was controlling the scenario so she could continue to have her affair.
I paid child support, nothing more, still trying to meet needs, but not finance the affair, no dice. Ran out of money to get coached by Steve Harley as she filed for divorce and I had to pay a retainer, and $175/hour for his time, etc.
After about 9 months after she said she was moving out, and 7 months post D-day, I said I was done. I had said what she would have to do to return, we were only communicating via lawyers at this point anyway, so I really saw no need for a plan B letter that said what I had already told her verbally.
So just a wasted 7-9 months in my opinion.
He asked me. I said I didn't think an affair was something she could do.
He proceeded from there. He had the same information, the e-mails, everything.
If nothing else, he could have said anyone is capable of having an affair (after all, isn't that in several of the books?) and we shouldn't rule out that possibility yet, so protect yourself, your family, etc.
EE, this is a horrible story. I am so sorry about what happened.
But you were not really doing Plan A, were you, if you were acting on the basis that there was no affair? Properly used, you would have attempted to meet the ENs that she would allow you to meet, while negotiating the end of the affair. When the affair did not end within a reasonable time - say, six months - you would have gone to Plan B, having laid the groundwork for her return should the affair end. You would have told her why you could not continue being hurt by her affair, you would have given her a Plan B letter with the conditions for her return, and you have made it clear that the door back to the marriage was still open - for now.
Plan A would have been carried out with the strategic intention of either ending her affair, or making you an attractive husband to return to after Plan B. Plan A was never done.
How can you criticise Plan A for failing you, when you were not in fact using it to fight an affair?
I never blamed plan A for my loss. I simply said it was largely a waste of time and resources.
To add to the above:
Plan A as Dr Harley envisages it would have included exposing the affair. Experience here shows that this can be effective in ending the affair if done early. If done after a long period while the couple has lived apart, then friends and family might feel that finding a new partner whilst separated is no crime. They might buy the WW's argument that the marriage was effectively dead when she left - or that she found her AP AFTER she left.
If you had exposed when people on the board told you to snoop and find the dirt, your wife would not have been able to play the tricks she successfully played on you. We cannot say that your marriage would have been restored, but it certainly stood no chance of being restored if you did not directly fight the affair. Endlessly meeting her ENS only led to cake eating, and to your eventually losing out to a determined OM who knew what he was fighting. Dr Harley actually warns about the cake-eating part of Plan A, and warns that it should not be done indefinitely. It should not be used to help entrench and embed an affair.
I'm so sorry that you lost your son, EE. I would NEVER describe that as a successful outcome of any plan. However, I don't think you did Plan A, or that Plan A is what Steve Harley was coaching you on (since he accepted your denial of an affair). I agree that he SHOULD have coached you on Plan A, and I agree that you were royally misled and shafted by your wife - but I don't see where Plan A is to blame for your loss.
Again, I am terribly sorry for your loss.
What has Dr H said he would do if Joyce were to betray him. Would he try to win her back? He says no.
Is that due to his personality, or having witnessed the plans being executed thousands of times and wanting no part of it?
The explanation I've generally seen for this is that Dr. Harley is already implementing MB principles in his marriage. He is meeting his wife's EN's, practicing the policies of RO, POJA, taking extraordinary precautions, etc. If his wife were to have an A in spite of all of this, there likely wouldn't be much he could do, since he's already doing everything.
I would venture to say that most people who find themselves affected by an A cannot say this. Very few of us even knew about MB or Dr. Harley's principles prior to an A. This is probably true for both betrayed and wayward spouses. Since we didn't know about the principles, we obviously weren't practicing them. Most of us (BS's and WS's alike) made mistakes in our relationships that made our marriages vulnerable to an A.
Properly done, Plan A does not make her happy, it makes her furious because it intrudes on the fantasy she is living in and brings the light of truth into the darkness of deception where the affair exists.
Your WW will NOT be happy with your Plan A.
Do NOT gauge your Plan A performance on HER moods.Just want to testify on this. I had no freaking idea what Plan A was, no idea about MB when Pearl Harbor was bombed... but what I implemented in the smoke and ashes of ILYBINILWY was, to the letter, Plan A.
Was she happy? He77 no. What she was engaged in was a "kick-her-to-the-curb" situation - and I unknowingly dropped her off each day to work with her AP for 2 or 3 weeks.
Plan A temporarily breaks the fog of self-entitlement - you are doing the opposite of the mental justifications WW has developed for her actions.
She doesn't believe it, views it as temporary, and keeps trucking.
The longer this goes on, the thinner the justifications get, the angrier the WW.
That's not to say that they won't selfishly soak it up like a sponge the entire time.
You CAN'T guage by her actions for several reasons;
1) she is going to pull off mental gymnastics to continue to justify an active A, and may approach you with a "don't matter" attitude.
2) she may be cake-eating entirely. You will get waivering and waffling comments and responses from a WW if you slip in your Plan A. Having their needs met by two men is
the goal. Those aren't "little glimpses of hope," gentleman. They are tugs on the pole to make sure the hook is set so they can continue keeping you on the line.
3) a perpetual Plan A is a marriage with 3 people. If it doesn't break the A, eventually it will simply build her self-entitlement.
As the BS, you will
always be better supplied than the AP. You are the spouse, you have the time and the memories, YOU SHOULD HAVE THE GD HOUSE, you are the father of the children. All the AP has is a fantasy that cannot support itself without all that
you provide.
Dr. Harley states that affair-based relationships statistically have a lifespan of 3 years before their rotten foundation fails them. That's a MAXIMUM, not a minimum.
This is the entire logic behind the Plan A ---> Plan B approach.
Offer the cake eater a sweeter-tasting cake, let them gorge for a bit... then yank that SOB off the table. The worm-bread they are left to eat won't seem so great then.
Thanks for this, kiddo.
So wouldn't it stand to reason that there are differences in the plan and it's effectiveness when faced with a WW vs a WH?
Given the general differences as well as the general outcomes, it stands to reason that the typical BH will have far harder road to hoe than the typical BW?
EE, I have heard Dr Harley say that there are differences in the affair of a WW and a WH, that WW's affairs are harder to break because they are more entrenched, and that this is why he recommends "quite a bit of time" longer for a BH to use Plan A. (He has also cited the physical and emotional breakdown that BW's often go through.)
I have heard him say words to effect that the BH will have a harder road to hoe than a BW. As I understand him, you are correct in your reading.
But you didn't do Plan A, as far as I can see, and I don't think it fair on other BH's - or to Dr Harley - for you to cite your experience on threads discussing it.
Then why did Steve H call it plan A? Why did he have me on a plan to meet need, eliminate LB's and get her to the phone to talk.
I believe he was presenting plan A, or at least the portions of it that are not specific to affairs. I.E. meeting needs, eliminating LB and engaging in a plan to restore romantic love?
And once I knew of the affair, I exposed, just short of a billboard outside her apartment. Her family knew, my family knew, the OM's wife knew, her workplace knew (she had to work now that she was out of the marital home) the pre-school knew when they commented on how our daughter was acting strangely. "Her mom is having an affair, she moved out and has created a lot of drama in our girl's life with her choices."
You know, stuff like that.
Even his employer and alumni association were informed of the affair.
Can't say I didn't try plan A.
I sought to meet needs, eliminate LB's and exposed the affair.
Unless I'm missing something, that's plan A.
I never blamed plan A for my loss. I simply said it was largely a waste of time and resources.
I apologise for misrepresenting your argument.
However, I don't think you did Plan A.
Really, you read the above and still don't call what I did plan A.
Then what was it I was doing for those 7-9 months?
Now this is becoming about me, and I really don't want this to be about me, so I'll start another thread and if y'all want to discuss my life from 9/13/03 to January 2006 when the divorce was final, then we can do that.
If you want to talk about me and my questions, take it here:
How to plan A a WW or WAW
I just read some of your first posts on MB and boy did this forum SUCK back then.
Nobody would accept your conclusion that "I asked her and she said she wasn't having an affair and I'd be able to tell if she were lying"
I can't believe it took from early Sept. until November for you to figure it out.
Your posts on the prayer forum are heartbreaking (though you may want to go back and have first names removed).
I take it hard when I post advice and miss something or fail to properly advise someone correctly. It's a tough business COACHING people as it's a lot more responsibility than merely "counseling" (whereupon you try to draw out of a person their own conclusions and decision of what they ought to and want to do).
Your experience is yours and your perspective is valuable here. I asked Heartsore about regrets because I was upset over feeling like I failed him. It was important to me that he didn't feel like I made things worse for him as I spent a lot of time and effort trying to help. I've gotten much more used to "failure" here and much more aware of, as you say, likely outcomes...divorce.
Oh yeah...another difference btwn men and women. I think that it's harder to get a ww to end her affair than a wh but, if you do, a ww is more likely to do the MB work necessary to earn her "f" and commit to a full recovery than a WH who more often just want to bury it under a rug. I think one of the important goals of MB is not just to end affair and recover marriage but instead see that recovered marriage become part of the 33% or so subset of marriages that are marriages of love and extraordinary care.
In the end...15%, 20%, 10%...either way...either percentage...there IS a chance any betrayed spouse can and will save their marriage and by using MB they hopefully have a better shot at doing so and when they do they have a better shot of making it a wonderful marriage. I think if you run around and try to find another plan or tweak the plan to make the 15%, 20% or 10% figure higher...you're just giving up the end result. Only certain WS's have the inclination and ability to make it to a fully recovered marriage of extraordinary care and we can't predict or know before hand which wayward spouses are in that category.
[in other words...some "plans" suggest the betrayed spouse date others in an attempt to get the wayward spouse to wake up and come back to the marriage...to me...the "solution" of more adultery only makes matters worse...maybe...MAYBE in some situations it would work better (or just faster) than Plan A and Plan B but at what costs to the betrayed spouses integrity and very soul not to mention their chances at a true recovery (where they BOTH have to clear their wayward entitled foggy butt brains)]
Mr. Wondering
I don't think anyone tells a guy things like that. However, I think many "interpret" plan A to mean just that. Meet her needs, don't make waves, etc.
Nope, they dont' interpret any such thing on this board. If they do, they are soundly rebuked. By board members and by Dr Harley on the radio. WE tell them:
1. don't leave the home
2. don't let her take the kids without a court order
3. file for divorce on grounds of adultery if she won't stop
4. expose the affair wide and far
5. DEMAND - yes, I said DEMAND, which is Dr Harley's EXACT WORD - that she end her affair
6. confront the OM and tell him to buzz off
So no, the only misinterpretation is on your part, EE. You apparently haven't been reading this board and don't know what goes on.
Now maybe 15% is the best possible outcome. If that's the case, then why not protect BH's and their families from the prospect of the WW not only getting the divorce she'll probably get, but also getting primary custody and a favorable division of assets?
They can and do protect their families by filing for divorce and getting custody of their children. Many here have done that at our recommendation. While only 15% of affairs end in PLAN A, many more than that end in Plan B. [I don't have the statistic] Most marriages do not end over affairs - 65% stay together. So it is a mistake to assume that only 15% reconcile, 15% is simply the # of affairs that end in PLAN A.
And in Plan A, most BS's cannot meet their spouses needs anyway. The point of Plan A is to pledge to meet the WS's emotional needs in the FUTURE if they end the affair.
EE, I am catching up on your posts, but you have a very foreign view of Plan A that we don't have on this board. We bust up about 2 to 3 affairs a month using these techniques. And when a WW doesn't end her affair, we tell the BH to open up a can of Texas whoop [censored] on his WW and file for divorce on grounds of adultery.
Let me see if I understand. Are you saying most affairs end on D day, when the BH confronts the WW, she just up and ends her affair more than 50% of the time?
Or is it just the WS?
Are the results the same for a BH or a BW. Do WH's end their affairs more than BW's at this point?
I think the number who actually end their affairs on D-day is remarkably small, especially when we are talking about the WW. Given what we've read about WW's, I think that number is even smaller than the 15% who end their affairs as a result of the BH's plan A.
If I were going to give an anecdotal answer to this, based on what I have seen on this board, I would place it at about 50% too. This would apply to both WW's and WH's. In fact, the WW count seems to be a little higher. When a BH stands up for his marriage like this, it is very appealing to the WW.
Really, you read the above and still don't call what I did plan A.
Then what was it I was doing for those 7-9 months?
What you did is nothing like how we recommend Plan A over here on this board. It is completely different from anything I have ever seen over here or even from Dr Harley.