Hello all, I am at a crossroads and don't know how to proceed. Mid January, my WH walked out when I confirmed to him that I had called OW's H. After about 10 days he came back. So, for the next 10 days he talked about leaving again. I was on the radio show (Friday 1/28) and Dr. H told me to immediately go to Plan B and I then proceeded. After about 2 weeks he called to tell me that he was leaving the next day to go to his mom's house (2,000 miles away.) I suspected correctly that since I surprised him by taking his packed bag to him at work, he had nowhere to go, and that he lived in his company office for the 2 weeks. That weekend, he went to see his aunts and uncle about 1 hour away and on that Sunday I was told that he had some kind of "Emotional Breakdown," and no one is telling me exactly what happened. His family members live in the same college town that OW's daughter attends. I believe that my WH possibly saw OW that weekend. No one will tell me. He has been down in the Carribean for exactly 4 weeks. This weekend we spoke and he stated that he may be coming back in about 2-3 weeks as he is trying to sell his mom's house (in addition to "getting his life together.) We have talked about reconciliation and agreed that we have alot to talk about before he comes back under this roof. My issue is that he won't "admit" to what has happened since I found out about A back in August. Since he supposedly ended "contact," he only changed how he stayed contact with her, by using work email and phone. I was shown evidence that he saw her in November b/c his coworker showed me emails and pics referencing the weekend that he thought he had deleted from his computer. In December, she made a "surprise" impromptu visit to his work. I also found a draft text on his phone that he was planning to send to her referencing a Pre-Paid phone. Things between them were again escalating. I can't move forward toward Recovery if he doesn't come clean, but he's trying to "forget it happened,get his head together (finish Withdrawal) and move on with his life." He has totally resisted any suggestion that I have made from MB to date, but I sent him my SAA and HNHN because he wanted to see references about the (Plan B) letter that I sent him. He will get them tomorrow. He stated that he did not understand the letter. He said that even though I was asking him to sever all ties with OW, he says that he had but that I would not have believed him if he told me that. I don't feel I can trust him if he doesn't "come clean." I don't want to be in this position in another 6 months, like I am now after he assured me in August that the A was over. Can anyone tell me where do I go from here?

Hi GabHil22, welcome to Marriage Builders.

In your Plan B letter did you specify the conditions for returning to the marriage? If not, why not? If so, why are you having discussions with him if he has not met those conditions?

Plan B is very specific. Among the conditions for recovering the marriage is a No Contact letter that you approve and send. Any break in the No Contact rule sets recovery back to Square One.

Do you have an intermediary (IM)? This is the person who should be conducting communications between the two of you.

It does not sound to me like you are really in Plan B. I suggest you read up on it (and perhaps refresh your knowledge of it with another call to Dr. Harley).

Sounds to me you didn't take dr Harley's advice by going to plan B. So my suggestion?

GO TO PLAN B

and do not contact your husband, it looks to me that your husband want's to brush it under the rug and if you let him then there will be no reconciliation.

Write your plan B letter (post it here)
Find and IM
Block his email and phone
and STAY DARK!

Thanks for answering me. What started as a (decent) Plan B, made a questionable turn when WH left to go to the Carribean. No, a "no contact" letter to the OW was not sent. In August when I confronted him, he didn't allow me the courtesy to be there (in the room) when he called her to break it off. OW was concerned that I would tell her H, and I agreed not to if all contact stopped. So from August,I have been led to believe that it was "finished," until one of them started the texting or calling. I would then say something and state that I was going to call her H and it would stop until until about 2 or 3 weeks later when the texting and calling would start again. (This was before I found MB.) What I realized was that they may have been trying to end it, but when one of them would hit the "withdrawal wall," contact would start again. The Plan B letter stated that if he was "willing to sever all (ability to be in) contact with OW and decide to be completely honest with me, we can talk about our future together."

Are you saying that a "no contact" letter still needs to go out to OW, like now? Is there anything else that I need or should do at this time? FYI- OW is not local, but lives about 2 hours south of us. (Not like that would stop her.) OW continued contact with WH up to the weekend that he went to see his family, just before going to the Carribean (on his pre-paid phone.)

Hello Gab,

Why have you not sent a No Contact Letter?

The reason your WH did not want you in the room when he "ended it" is because he didn't want you to hear what he told the OW...

Which was that the affair needed to go underground because you knew about it.

Who all have you exposed to?

The OW husband MUST be told and could be your greatest ally in making sure the affair has ended.

Jim

@Gab -

What are your specific requirements for you to recover your marriage? What did you put in your Plan B letter. Exact wordage please?

This is my exact Plan B letter to WH.

My Dear WH,

I sincerely apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affair with OW possible. I know that you feel that I was not there for you when you�ve needed me, and we are now both suffering for my mistakes.

You recently indicated your intent to leave our home again. In the same conversation I understood you to say that you wanted to work toward reconciliation. I realize that we both need to work on ourselves individually, but during this process we can not live in a vacuum with no interaction between us. You state that you can not work on �our relationship� until you and I first take care of our respective issues. But it is not out of the realm of possibility that our individual work may develop us personally, but possibly in contrasting directions. It was unclear whether you are suggesting that our reconciliation not take place until after that point. But the time we need to work individually could likely end up being measured in �years.� If you were truly serious about reconciling, I would not think that you would want to be separated for that amount of time.

I want to and am willing to correct the errors I�ve made in the past and create a new beginning for both of us that will also meet your needs. But I can not do that until you completely sever your relationship with OW once and for all and make a conscious decision to be completely honest with me.

Until then, I will avoid seeing or talking with you. Of course, you may call and speak with SON. I will have him answer the phone when I see it�s you on the Caller ID. With regard to your time with SON, we can communicate by email or text message regarding the logistics of getting and returning him. If you would like to visit him here in our home, with notice I will arrange to be away. Any communication about our children or any other matter can be initiated with either email or text message.

I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you this way. You must know about the suffering I have endured because of your relationship with OW. I simply cannot continue to make a concerted effort to mend our relationship, hoping you will do the same, while you are still in contact with her. I still love you but I cannot see you the way things are now.

As soon as you are willing to permanently separate from OW and follow the suggested measures to ensure a total separation, I will be willing to discuss our future together.

I continue to want us to rebuild our marriage some day. I believe our marriage can be even better than the way it was when things were the best between us. I want us to be able to meet each other�s emotional needs, and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We need to build a new lifestyle in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then there will never again be a reason for us to separate. I want to again be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you again as my best friend.

I loved you when we were married and I continue to love you right up to this day. I just cannot continue like this as long as you are not being honest and continue the possibility of any communication with OW.

Always,

ME

With regard to re-implementing Plan B, what good would it do if he is not even here in the States? He mentioned that he thinks he may be back in about 2-3 weeks. Help me see what I should do now to effect a change. Thanks for your advice.

It is possible to rebuild a stronger marriage than before the affair but it requires some time and efforts. For now just stick with this plan and do not contact your husband until he is ready to commit himself to saving your marriage. Make it clear to him what are the conditions and what is his part in surviving the affair.

I forgot to answer the question posed to me about Exposure. As I stated before, I did not find MB until mid-fall, so upon discovering the EA-PA, I did not expose to anyone, except a few close friends. By early-mid fall, WH's family knew the truth. I did not expose but WH did, but I see now that he literally blamed the A on me, turning his whole family against me. I called OW's H and had to tell him. That was not my intent because WH told me that OW stated that she told her H about the A. When I called to talk to him, OWH did not know so I had to tell him. I have not talked to OWH since my call on Jan 17, earlier in the day WH packed his bag and left angry because I messed up his fling. I've told my siblings and father within the past month. I have not told my daughter who was home last week for Spring Break. I started to talk about the subject and she resisted. I never got back around to trying again. My 10 year old son only knows that his Dad is with his mom, but he does not know the exact reason b"why."

A few weeks ago, WH contacted a good friend of ours asking him to help "a good friend's daughter who is finishing college" to get an interview at his company. When I saw our friend and his W, he told me about my WH's contact. Of course, that friend was actually the OW. I proceeded to tell him what was actually going on. I have been ambivilant about total exposure now, because maybe he is telling the truth and A is really over. And if so, what good would it do but anger WH. I think that if I had strong proof that the A is really still going on then I would. But, what if I am wrong? I may not be able to prove that it really is still going on. And if I can't prove it, then I don't reel right in continuing the Exposure.

Please advise. Thanks.

Gab, does your H work with OW? What was her H's response to your phone call?

You understand that YOU don't write the NC letter, right? Your WH does that, then you approve it and mail it yourself. Obviously he isn't planning to send one - and you do know that he never ended the A with that phone call he excluded you from, right?

If they work together you will need to expose this to their employer. But DON'T threaten either of them with exposure! Don't threaten exposure with the misguided thought that your threats will end the A. They won't. It will just push the affair partners underground and they'll figure out ways to hide it better. Exposure needs to hit them like a bolt of lighting. You need to hit your exposure targets in one fell swoop - not one or two today, one or two tomorrow, etc. They'll get a head's up if you expose in dribbles, and they'll have time to figure out a response that will paint you as a jealous, nut-job wife with mental issues.

I would suggest that you track down as many relatives of OW as you can and send them letters exposing this A and asking them for their support in ending the A. We have samples on this site if you need some guidance with the letter.

Does OW have Facebook? That's proven to be an effective tool for exposing to the friends on her friend list.

Your WH got pissed? Well, sure he did! You're interfering in his affair-buzz! And your hit an effective target - her BH. Think about making a list of targets for exposure: her parents, your in-laws, his siblings, HIS EMPLOYER if they work together. Check the Operation Investigation forum for helpful hints and then fire away with any questions you've got.

I'm confused. If you're in Plan B you should have had no contact with him. How is it that he got in touch with you and had a conversation about your Plan B letter?

Plan B begins with a letter confirming that you will no longer be a part of his affair drama, as a way of preserving your remaining love for him. You go dark after that. Do you have an IM in place?

Please don't mention MB any further with him. You don't want him poking around this site because we've got tools on here to help you kill the affair. It won't do to make him aware of your game plan.

I am still trying to understand how to apply the MB principles to my circumstances. My WH has been with his mom in the Carribean for a month now. I tried to implement Plan B prior to his leaving. He stated that the A has been over for a while (not according to the evidence the I have seen.) He stated that he did not indicate that information and try to convince me after receiving the Plan B letter b/c he said that I wouldn't have believed him. Many caring people monitoring this forum urged me to go back to Plan B and continue with Exposure. My questions at this time are (1) what should a BS do when the WH insists that the A is over? I don't (physically) have the proof that I need to feel comfortable in continuing with Exposure. Additionally, (2) when WH says the A "has been over" but he has not yet "officially" committed to working toward reconciliation, should Exposure continue? And (3) to date, BS and I have not sent OW the NC letter. I know the thought is that it should be sent. Should I continue with Exposure until the NC letter is sent? Or am I to continue Exposure until WH commits to working on M? Please help me get my plan together. Thanks for your advice.

[bquote=GabHil22]I am still trying to understand how to apply the MB principles to my circumstances.

I'm not real good with answering questions and by no means a vet. Just want to question a few things if I may.

My WH has been with his mom in the Carribean for a month now.

How do you know this for sure? Did he tell you? Did Mother tell you? All waywards lie. If their lips are moving they are probably lying.

I tried to implement Plan B prior to his leaving. He stated that the A has been over for a while (not according to the evidence the I have seen.) He stated that he did not indicate that information and try to convince me after receiving the Plan B letter b/c he said that I wouldn't have believed him. Many caring people monitoring this forum urged me to go back to Plan B and continue with Exposure. My questions at this time are

(1) what should a BS do when the WH insists that the A is over? I don't (physically) have the proof that I need to feel comfortable in continuing with Exposure. Additionally,
You may want to read the spying thread on here. Not sure what you have to monitor your WH. You need some way to verify his actions match what he is telling you.

(2) when WH says the A "has been over" but he has not yet "officially" committed to working toward reconciliation, should Exposure continue?

You may want to read back through your thread. I see some very knowledable Vets were posting to you.

And (3) to date, BS and I have not sent OW the NC letter. I know the thought is that it should be sent. Should I continue with Exposure until the NC letter is sent? Or am I to continue Exposure until WH commits to working on M? Please help me get my plan together. Thanks for your advice.

Was this a letter WH wrote and you approved of? I am not saying at this point to mail it.
[/quote]

Please go back through your posts. You have some extremely knowledgable Vets posting to you. I am just raising these questions. You may also want to re-read the Basic Concepts at the top of the page in the red area and see if more ideas pop up. Come back with questions then

Hope this helps

nESRE

WH is still in the Carribean with his mom since Feb 22 (he's supposed to be "getting his head together.") I was in Plan B when he left and it has been tough when we have a child that we have to make decisions about. He is preparing to return within the next week or so.

Toward the end of March I was able to confirm that he did indeed have the pre-paid phone that he was using to make contact with OW. He had to "fess up" b/c OW's B-Day was the day after the phone plan ($60 unl T & Txt)ended. WH chose to call OW on his "real" cell phone which I monitor. But WH and OW made contact the very next day. I confronted him about how after a B-Day call and another contact made within 24 hours, his contact with OW must not have stopped. I finally got the 4 digit pin and looked at the contacts from the pre-paid phone online. Another knife in my heart. While I am not surprised, WH has kids here who need and miss him and he is still playing games putting OW first before them. After much confrontation yesterday about his continual contacts with OW when he is supposedly trying to get his "head" together away from his kids, he said that when he returns he will come home and do it "my way," moving back into our home and commit to work on our relationship and move forward to restore our lives.

I have mixed feelings about this declaration. Since this is a little different with his flying home, how should I proceed from here? I want to follow SAA and will first insist on sending OW the NC letter. We have begun to discuss EPs that need to be taken to prevent further contact. I am sure OW has his mom's home phone #, so I have to take his word that NC b/t them continues. What else should I do under these circumstances, since he has not been here for us to discuss (probably in phases) our expectations from each other. Help!

I wanted to try to clarify the issues I have with WH returning. First, (of course) is Withdrawal. I was hoping he would have gotten through the worst part with his mom. Now, since there has been constant contact until the phone plan wasn't renewed, I am sure he probably has barely scratched the surface. I have not found anything suggested on how to handle Withdrawal with BW and WH under the same roof. Any suggestions?

Second, expectations.

Third, Additional issues that I feel must be addressed. Before I found MB, I was trying to deal with this "problem" I had alone. Prior to and since D-Day, WH chose to marshal all of his family against me. You know, I am horrible, I "made" him have an A. I am the reason for our financial problems, and on, and on. They have been directing him to begin to "gather evidence" in case of a D, His family tends to "enable" him. While they don't "condone" the A, they have seen it as a better alternative to M with me. Bottom line, he has so far "fudged" the truth about the true picture, you don't recognize it. His family (the few I am in contact) really only "tolerate" me. I can tell that he has fed them so many lies. My issue is if he doesn't tell the truth about what he's said about me, and we are successful in recovery and stay together, he would say that he is staying for our son, and then they will hate me even more (b/c I am not letting him get on with his life w/o me.) Hope this helps. Thanks.

To catch up, WH is still in the Caribbean with his mom (since 2/22). He is trying now to arrange his return for 5/7. I found out that he does have a pre-paid cell with which he was in constant contact with OW. He finally "came clean" and gave me access to the account history online. He states that when it was time to pay for another month to keep it on, it was decided let the phone go. (I don't know who made that decision.) So if WH is not lying to me (again) he should be in Withdrawal with the last contact he admits to being on 3/30. I still do not trust that he is telling the whole truth.

WH is continually on the fence about whether we wants to work on our marriage or to file for divorce. He even told me we should go ahead and file, and maybe in a year or two we could start seeing each other and possibly remarry. I assured him that if we did go ahead and file, I would NOT consider resuming our relationship after the divorce became final.

He has some questions and he and I both feel we need answers. I am not sure that SAA has the answers so I thought I would post them for help.

1-WH wants to know "how long does Withdrawal really take?" Are there any "benchmarks" that may indicate the level of progress, and how soon it will be over? What does it feel like when withdrawal is finished? How do you know it is finished?

2- WH has indicated that he does not really want to meet my EN. What does one do in such a case? In SAA Dr. Harley talked about having to "prime the pump" with Sue and Jon. He has indicated that he wants to work on our marriage but I am still getting non-committal responses. Since he should be in withdrawal now,is this why I am getting such wishy-washy answers?

3- WH is concerned that he will not "get the love back" for me. I pointed out what Sue said in SAA pg. 163, but he won't trust that it can and will happen. Any thoughts for him?

4- We are both beginning to fill out the EN and LB questionnaires. Should we fill them out putting down behaviors as they are now or pre-A?? I feel that my indications will be skewed if I put down behaviors as they have been lately due to the A. Any thoughts? Thanks.

Gabhill, I would go ahead and file for divorce, but before you do that, I would go into Plan B. Your H is not in any way interested in recovery. He is only interested in keeping you and the OW in tow. The success or failure of your marriage is completely contingent upon his ability to make a 180 degree turn in his approach to what it means to be a husband. I would take a pass and tell him not to contact you unless and until he is committed to taking the appropriate steps to recover your marriage.

Now would be an ideal time to send him a Plan B letter followed by changing the locks on your house.

I have a question about WH's Withdrawal from the OW. As I said in my previous post, he admits his last contact was on 3/30. I asked him last night about his going through withdrawal, mentioning some of the "symptoms." He said that he hasn't experienced any feelings of depression, anxiety,(classic symptoms) etc. He stated that he has been "fighting" the feeling when he is thinking of her (triggers and flashbacks) but that compulsion is lessening every day. I am having a hard time truly believing him. Could WH's withdrawal symptoms be only as he has described them? Or is this a symptom of something else?

It's been a while since I've posted. My WH is now back after 11 weeks in the Carribean with his mom. Before he returned we did alot of talking and are in agreement with how we will (continue to) proceed with MB program. He seemed to be doing well being back with the exception of when he gets stressed out about the even deeper financial hole we are in since he quit his job to go and get his head together "on vacation."

In agreement with our EP, he gave me his "affair phone" and I have been given access to the call and text history for the number. He was using an AT & T Go Phone which he paid $60 in advance for a month of unlimited Tlk & Txts. At the end of March he had to pay up or the phone went off. He did not pay up.

With regards to ending it with the OW, I asked him how was that decided. He told me that he talked to her on her B-Day (the day after the phone went off) He told me that she said that she was blocking his numbers from calling and txting her phone. She was in counseling and she was going to do what was suggested. So that conversation would really be the last.

The only thing about the EP's that had not been done is the NC Letter. I tried to get WH to see that he needed to do it because the ending of this A was by other "forces" (OW's decision and lack of $$ to keep the phone working.)He needs to take a proactive step himself to declare that he considers this A totally over. I told him that the way it is now, if OW decides to re-establish contact, she will. He then (begrudgingly) agreed and stated that although he feels the effort is redundant (since they have already said their Goodbyes,)he would write the NC Letter.

I have been monitoring both his "legit" and A phones and on Fri.(5/27)I noticed a call from OW's area code to the A phone. I searched and found that the number was from OWH's company and I assumed it was from OWH. Yesterday (after 5:00) I called the number and found out that I actually dialed OW's work phone, which her voice announced her name as the call went to VM. I then said nothing to my WH.

This morning, WH tells me that the NCL will be ready for me to send this afternoon. He then asked if I found out who called the A phone. I was checking the phone activity and I saw where that same number called his "legit" phone an hour and 3 hours after the initial attempt on the A phone. WH then stated that he was thinking about calling OWH (why, I don't know.) He later suggested that he call the number with me right there. He did and found out that it was OW's work phone. (I (we) didn't know that OW works PT at the same company that OWH does.)

I had planned to call OW on the next day she would usually work and go off on her, but I don't think I can or should now under the circumstances. But since we made this discovery, WH assured me that he will not answer any calls from OW's area code. He knows that I have the ability to find out if OW calls again, and if he answers the call. In exchange, WH asked me not to call OW. I said that I wouldn't until she tries to contact WH again. Then all bets could be off.

Later on, I told WH that I had reflected on this morning's findings and we both agreed that his NC Letter will do the speaking for him.

My bottom line question is if I (we) handled this situation in a way that is in line with MB? If not, what should I have done or do differently?

Since we are transitioning toward Recovery, I understand if this question needs to be moved to the "In Recovery" forum for response. If so, feel free.

WH and I have been talking practically nonstop for the last 3 weeks about our moving forward into marital recovery. WH wants me to formulate a document that spells out the EP's, and exactly how we will proceed from this point. I also need things to be totally clear so that there is no misunderstanding. Has anyone done something like what I am talking about? If so, can you give me any "samples?" Please help me. I need something quick so we can proceed.

If it were me, I'd change that phone number that OW dialed. If you then see that she called it, you'll know he gave her the number.

Email addresses need to be changed as well and all passwords known.

No facebook, IMO.

No opposite sex friendships.

Schedule your UA time, get a calender if you need to.

There's a better format that MelodyLane sometimes posts, perhaps she'll add to this.

You might consider counseling with Steve or Jennifer as well. As a man, I know I gravitate towards step-by-step things, and your talking with them would probably be more beneficial than the two of you trying to wing it. They can help you guys get a plan together, and it sounds like a good first step. Talk to your husband about it.

Since this affair is still fresh (and since OW is actively trying to contact your husband) I'm concerned that the "No Contact" will slip if you guys don't maintain the momentum.

Thanks, Northwood. I would have forgotten a few of the ones you listed. Is the "document" supposed to be the "Marital Recovery Agreement" that is in the Appendix of SAA? In other words, would we use that agreement? I am not sure if what I am trying to draft is the one I should use from SAA, just adding what I need to include specifically to fit our needs. Or am I confusing the two?

Hopefully MelodyLane will weigh in on this as well.

I will also discuss counseling/coaching with MB as well.

I couldn't say (haven't seen that Agreement that you mentioned) but typical posts just have a list of what is expected from the wayward.

Since your husband asked for a written agreement, I'd seriously do the telephone counseling so that you guys will have a third party/referee to guide you. Too, I understand that Steve can be very matter-of-fact with waywards and gets the point across quite well.

And get those phone numbers and email addresses changed

I know that WH's cell phone and email needs to be changed. Does that mean MY cell phone number and email too?

I just found out about a jewelry purchase that WH made for OW just after arriving at his mom's house (2/25/11). He ordered it from an online store and had it sent to her work address. In an effort to question him about it, I got on the general subject of whether he had ever given her a gift. He of course said no. I later asked him about his calls to the online store. I asked why he made several (6) calls to the store's 800 number within a matter of about 3 business days. Then he admitted that he did buy her a "dress" (from the place he really bought the bracelet.) I found the info on the bottom of a page that was folded and tucked into the copy of SAA that he read. I even mentioned the "name" of the bracelet(written on the page) and he said it did not mean anything to him. I am getting ready to tell him how I discovered the purchase (from his papers), and calling the 800 number and giving them the confirmation number (also on this paper)and they gave me everything, including the fedex confirmation tracking (so I could confirm exactly where it was sent)and the last 4 digits of the credit card that he used to complete the purchase.

He does not seem to understand that his honesty (even if he thinks it will upset or hurt me) is essential to me being able to begin to allow myself to begin to trust him again. How can I trust him when I can't quickly verify the truth when he will outright lie to me when he knows I can (and will) find out or he should know that I already know the truth? All I can do is cry. I don't understand it.

With regard to the bracelet, my first instinct is to send OWH a picture of it and let him know that it was a gift from my WH. Should I do that or just leave it alone? If it was the dress that WH "admitted" to sending to her, it wouldn't matter, but it it's a charm style bracelet with a heart charm.

If you can give me some insight on these issues, I would appreciate it

I wouldn't worry about your email address or cell--she's probably not going to try to contact you.

Just get his changed and keep track of them via cellphone spyware and a keylogger for the computer.

Have you talked to OWH since OW tried to call last? I'd make sure he knows about the attempted contact and you could also mention the bracelet if you thought about it.

Have you ever spoken with OW?

As for the honesty issue, I'd definitely try the counseling for that. He has to be able to tell you the truth without you going completely nuts upon hearing the truth--and causing him to shut down and the cycle continuing.

Of course, he has to first *want* to be honest with you, and I'm not getting that vibe from your posts.

It reminds me of chickadee's posts about her husband...

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2485742&page=1

my H tricked truthed me for 3 mos. lies lies lies.

thing was when it all came out, pulled alot of Sh*t from his [censored], part of why he was not being honest with me was because of his own shame for his actions and he knew that it would be devastating and i would definately leave him.

After the final d day (he said in the beging it was beacuse he didnt want to hurt me) and in the end it was about the shame of it all.

you HAVE to swallow the truth and thank him, yes turn you head and barf. Wipe it off and say yes please can i have some more.

after all of the time i thought i had it all i kept at it, i did have him do a poly, after so many times, i had to. I have a full list of EP i will send you later, its long.

I would suggest that you both call the harleys- they helped HIM understand why we could not move forward without H&O- in fact we were coaching with Jennifer (daughter) as more crap was coming out, she was not surprised. I am sure you will get more, brace yourself.

back to you later, hang in there!!!

I spoke to the OWH in January 2011. I didn't know that I was exposing to him. At first it seemed like he did not believe it, but he realized that I knew too much personal stuff that only OW could have told my WH who then told me. They live in the next major city about 2 hours south of us. His attitude by the end of the conversation was that we can't babysit them. But he was going home to have a little talk with his wife. The way we ended the conversation, I got the feeling that after he talked to OW, there would be no further reason for he and I to make contact. We were both supposed to handle our own business. The A cooled off that night with OW making the crying "goodbye" speech to my WH, I'm sure for benefit of OWH, but a few days later it was back in full swing since WH walked out on me that night. I think that I need to make a call to him, but since he did not seem open, I don't want to be a pest either. I don't know what really is the nature of their relationship. OW seems to be OWH's "trophy wife." OW told my WH that she suspected that OWH could have had an A or 2 himself, but she had no evidence of anything. But she has been getting affection and intimate conversation from my WH. OWH does not seem to pay her any attention, he just works a lot, doing a great deal of international travel.

WH has written a version of a NC letter. He did not want to do it. But he finally saw the need after she attempted to contact. But he has not yet given me the "final" copy. I am wondering if he can't bring himself to give it to me so I can send it. I will mention that possibility to him.

Thanks, Chick. I would really like to see what you have written down. I keep feeling that I will forget to include something. I will talk to him about counseling with the Harleys. I think that it would really help.

Thanks.

"since WH walked out on me that night. I think that I need to make a call to him, but since he did not seem open, I don't want to be a pest either. I don't know what really is the nature of their relationship. "

will send ep's but are you kidding me with this. dont want to be a pest???????????? its your husband! you are not a pest you are his wife. - pest to whom the OWH? give me a break. this is your shot, who cares you have nothing to lose.

their relationship is they had an A. come on, i may be jumping on something i shouldnt but liar liar pant on fire! who gives crap about her, stop typing about her problems and trying to figure out her relationship.. not about her!

send the letter!!!! now.

ep's next

Call him anyway and, just to break the ice, you could start the conversation about not wanting to be a pest. These are never "easy" conversations, just get what you need to say over with and see where it lands.


Consider the source of that tidbit and rethink it. What would she say? That her husband was the greatest man alive and what she was doing was wrong OR that her husband was scum and that her cheating on him, therefore, had some merit.

I'd bet OWH heard some pretty lousy things about you.


Well of course he doesn't! I'm sure he's never around and, when he is, struts around drunk yelling at the top of his lungs! I'm sure he's just flat out AWFUL and poor ole OW is just under this mean-ole-man's thumb all the time!

Get where I'm going there?


Good. Now tell him to cut the crap, get with the program and send the letter now. And that if you get so much as a mouse fart's whiff of contact between the two of them again, you're out of here, will file for divorce on grounds of adultery and drag OW's sorry butt into court to give testimony as to how she destroyed a family.

And mean every single word of it because his turn at the wheel is over, and now that you're back on your feet you are never going to be knocked down again.

emailing or texting with women outside of work reasons
no more going to bars or out drinking with his friends at night unless I am are there-
No more flirting
No sex in any form with anyone but me (had to reaasured no grey area)
if ANY of the OW makes any type of contact (face to face, email, txt phone call) you are to immediately end the contact and let me know and then take whatever steps are necessary to block future communication
no overnight traveling without each other
100 % transparency, no erasing of emails or texts and giving me access to all records and accounting time
Change cell phone number and give password & account access to me.
Change email account.- gmail
no social networking accounts (i.e., Face book, Classmates, My Space, etc.)
Take a polygraph
List out passwords for all business and personal computer logins, and any other passwords I don�t not have access to.
Install software that tracks and I have administrative access.
protect me and my feelings above all else.
not discuss our marriage issues with anyone of the opposite sex.
not attend clubs, strip joints, or any such establishment
be open and honest with me at all times about the past and present.
Discuss each day you daily schedule. If you need to make an adjustment to schedule, let me know of the change immediately.
make my phone calls my highest priority by answering them or returning them immediately.
avoid all chat rooms, porn, member sites, etc.
leave your phone accessible to me.
commit to at least 15 hours of undivided attention.
Anytime you have the thought, �I don�t want chick to know about��.�, call me and tell me


Base your actions on if chick were sitting next to me would I say or do it.

All good points, especially these last two.

DL2M,

NW & chicka are right, you are going to have to step up and lead this recovery. The EPs to prevent future contact (including the NC letter) are NON-NEGOTIABLE. You need to make sure your H understands this.

Here is part of your problem...Plan B is basically Plan Boundary. You let your H break your Plan B without any commitment to recovery so you basically told him that you won't enforce your boundaries. You are going to have to work extra hard now to make sure that you show him that you MEAN WHAT YOU SAY.

Regarding the jewelry that he is lying about, I wouldn't confront him with the receipt. I would just tell him you know that he hasn't given you the whole truth yet and he will need to take a polygraph.

There is more information under Operation Investigation on how to find someone that is qualified.

Well Guys, I read WH excerpts of "How to trust and Fall in Love again" which dealt alot with WH withholding the truth. I had another article or two reiterating the same thing. He seemed to agree about the issue and then agreed that he could see that nondisclosure could occur in order "protect" the BS. I thought we got all of that straight. I start to ask a question or two and he starts to get "snippy." He then said "If you want to hear that we slept together that night, then, yes, we did. Whether it's the truth or not, that's what I am going to say because that 's what you want to hear." Next was a fight with me trying to get across to him that I want the TRUTH, good or bad, whether he thinks that it'll hurt me or not. He told me that since credibility will always from now on be at issue, I need to hire someone to follow him around and report back to me regarding his actions. He said that he fell (back) in love with her (OW was the girl he dated during his freshman year in college, he met me the next year.) I asked him if that would be possible to do again with me. He said that he did not know. I got so mad and frustrated that I lost it and told him to get the f**k out. I have had it with the nondiscloure.

I tried to explain to him a few days ago what is says in SAA. Resentment will build if someone feels that they have been deprived of something and is not getting at least that much or better in place of it. I think that is what is happening to me. I told him that OW has had HIM and his attention, love and affection for 18 months now. Contact ended between them on 3/30. (2/3/2010 to 3/30/2011-up to now) He flew back here on May 10 and I have not seen much effort (on his own without my suggesting) to begin to restore the romantic love for me. I am trying to meet his ENs. He does not seem to want to meet mine. He does not touch me unless he wants sex. I finally had to point that out to him the other day. It seems that he does not have any faith in the MB program.

He read SAA and he states that he had a problem with it because he couldn't relate to the couples as people with real lives. He questions whether there was a job loss and other factors that he has to deal with now along with the issue of infidelity. I have not seen a filled out EN Questionnaire fro him. I suggested that we read a chapter of HNHN (aloud) and talk about it every evening. Stupid me started with the "'A' Story" at the beginning and that turned him off b/c he already read about Jon and Sue and Amy and Kevin in SAA. He said that he didn't need to hear it again b/c he's still living the nightmare. (me too.)But, we haven't moved on to the needs chapters like we had decided that we would do.

I calmed down after I had a good cry in the shower and told him that I have not seen much (on his own) of his effort to recover our marriage. He is a grown man, why should I have to be the one to tell him what to do ? He read SAA, and can figure out what needs to be done to start the recovery process. I don't mind suggesting, but I shouldn't have to say it more that 1 or 2x. He then turns it on me, telling me that he has not seen the changes he needs to see from me. WH is referring to the issues that started his resentment toward me, causing him to fall out of love with me and later toward the A. His issue is that he wants me to work FT. But when he went to stay with his mom, he quit his FT job and left. I did not know how I was going to pay bills, eat, etc. We were literally abandoned. It's like he did not care. The Sunday b/4 he left for his mom's, (2/20/11) he saw OW and it was supposed to be their "last goodbye." He came back to his aunts and emotionally fell apart. I was not called, but his uncle called his brother. A decision was made to fly him to Puerto Rico for some R and R and to get OW out of his head and to decide what he wanted to do about our marriage. I believe he and his brother and uncle (after much bashing of me) decided if he got on a plane and left, it would force me to quickly find a job. After that, he would come home and then I would be doing what he wanted all the while. But it did not happen that way. He called toward early April and heard our DS becoming detached from him. It shook him up and then he realized that if he waited for me to get a job before returning, he may not have any salvageable relationship with DS.

Any thoughts on the way he sees the picture? During the 2-3 years prior to the A, he spoke with most of his family members telling them that he wasn't happy with our marriage, but never had a straight on the table conversation on the issue with me. He disagrees. I later realized that in his "talks" with me he would "beat around the bush" on the issue without any direct discussion on what was bothering him.

Thanks for letting me vent. I got the EPs (Chickadee) and will be constructing the plan in writing today. I hope that I(we) can fix this.

Any words of wisdom, please let me hear them.

You won't like this.
You're doing all the heavy lifting.


Your H is throwing out excuses.
You are in, or are headed for a disaster. ~~~> A possible (likely) FALSE RECOVERY.


My H would have been picking some of his teeth off the floor if he said this to me.


LINK to FALSE RECOVERY thread
<~~~ read it !

In my opinion, this was the perfect thing to do since he doesn't want to be a big boy and have a conversation about this. I would have added that he needs to either file for divorce or stop the bull-excrement.

The rest of what he said is just deflecting everything on you. No real need to comment on that, pep covered it very well--especially the part about a possible need for a dental plan

I'd be really surprised if he isn't in contact with OW, and think that an ultimatum must be made. He has to hit rock bottom.

Until he gets there, his antics will continue and he'll drag you down with him.

I'd give him the list of EPs and add phone counseling to the list. Tell him that he either agrees to all of it (it's not negotiable) or you're filing for a divorce on the grounds of adultery and he needs to leave immediately. I'd then go no contact with him. The conversation shouldn't take more than ten seconds.

Just my two-cents.

Pep and North, I was feeling the same. I was thinking that I was too harsh. He's got alot on his "plate" trying to get a job and all. But, I don't think it would be impossible to look for a job and work on one's relationship with one's spouse.

I have gotten the impression (maybe its a false one) that practically all WHs come "crawling back on their knees" when they have ended it and want to reconcile. He seems to have ended it and expressed wanting to be here and work on us, but I am not getting what I label as "humility" from him. Its like I should be the humble one to have him here with us. I don't understand it. How did he get to call the shots? Maybe its not really a true arrogance, but there's some resentment there b/c of where he is now. No Job (yet) no car, no funds to get his own place. Just before Christmas, he blew the engine on the car he drove running after that 'ho--OW. And that has severely changed the dynamics of this situation. And he doesn't like it one bit. Really, if he had a working car, he'd be gone. When he left on 1/17, he spent the 10 days with friends, but that got old. Friends will let you stay with them a lot longer if they don't also have to give you a ride everywhere.

I agree with you about him needing to leave for a while. That's what happened back in Jan-Feb. He walked out on 1/17 and was gone for 10 days. He was home for 10 days and then on Feb 7, I took his bags to him at his office and started Plan B. For the next 2 weeks he really lived in his office, sleeping on the floor. The 2nd weekend, (2/18-20) he went to visit his Aunt and Uncle. OW also came for the weekend to the same (our alma mater)college town, where her DD just received her degree. After their "last goodbye" WH became emotionally unglued. Less than 48 hours later he was in PR with his mom and was there for 11 weeks. I thought he would come home with a different attitude about being here and working on us. But really its probably only about him having a roof over his head with/or near his DS and DD. I must accept that is the truth of the matter.

You are correct. "Life" happening is no excuse.


The key words there, probably, are "ended it" and "want"...I'd almost ask if he met someone in Puerto Rico, and believe the "want" part is just a matter of necessity at this point.

Time to draw the line in the sand and bring the floor up to him, so to speak.


I've felt the same way and it wasn't until I was truly ok with not being married at all costs, and my wife understood that, that things changed. In the meantime, though, it's a hard road.

Give him your list and tell him to make his choice today. He doesn't need any time, he's had (as you said) eleven weeks while living in what most would call a tropical paradise with no job, no worries and free room and board. Sheesh, must be rough!

Try not to lose your cool, but just tell him what you want to happen. I'd suggest the phone counseling because I've heard so many good things about it and it sounds like an un-biased third party needs to be brought in to right the ship.

And while you're at it, give some thought to his "complaint" about things you could improve on your end. While I don't agree with his approach to honesty, and think his foggy mind is probably blowing a lot out of proportion, sometimes there's a grain of truth buried there and a little introspection doesn't hurt. Food for thought. Take care.

This is not a false impression. Dr Harley has said expects a WH who is serious about recovery to come to the BW with "hat in hand". Your H is not serious. Give your H your conditions for recovery but prepare for Plan B.




This is not what Plan B is, DontLie. I would suggest you read up on Plan B so that you do it correctly next time.



Here

LINK How to Plan B correctly

You've heard of Plan A and Plan B and even Plan D (divorce) - well, the above is Plan FU. It's not MB prescribed, though it is *sometimes* effective at least in the short term; but here's what it really means:

If you find yourself in Plan FU, you're long overdue for Plan B.

Well, we just had a disagreement about the NC Letter. Here is his version:

"OW,
We can no longer have any communication or contact with each other. I have put my family through hell and this will stop. I ask that you respect my wishes and I am saying Goodbye, Forever.
Sincerely,
WH"

I thought that he would have used the one in SAA. His version says nothing about me. I am roped into "my family."

I am afraid that the NC letter my WH wrote is saying things to me that I had hoped I wouldn't have to face. His family includes his sisters and brother, mom, aunts, uncles, children and, oh yeah, her (me-BS) too. I believe I should have been at the TOP of the list.

I (here I go again) gave him 2 samples: The one in SAA and another I found on somewhere on this forum. He never said that he was not going to use the one in SAA, especially since he has his own copy of the book. Here, now I've given him 2 samples of what to write and now WH just finished writing (copying) it. He picked the sample that I found on this forum. He is so sarcastic with asking me "Now does this meet your approval?"

I don't know what (short of me initiating it) will show him his ways and his actions and how they are not where they should be. I know about going into Plan B again. And that looks like where we are headed. Anything else before I take that (Plan B) plunge again?

I've always been lukewarm on a NC letter sent when the wayward doesn't really mean it and is using it to placate the seemingly-nagging betrayed spouse.

Given his foggy mindset, I'd guess his letter is in line.

My wife sent two and, while they sounded good, she obviously didn't mean it. The third time, I told her to file for a divorce because I was done with this mess and I didn't bother with a NC letter that time. She knows that if there is any contact whatsoever, I'm out of here. Such a thing, it seems, hasn't quite clicked with your husband, has it?

So...I don't think it really matters because he's already said he's just writing it to get you to drop it.

What about the rest of your conditions or do you get a rolling of the eyes when you mention them?

Seriously--get into counseling so you can have someone guide you and act as a referee (of sorts) when things get hairy. He really needs to agree to that, but I'm guessing he won't?

So, if he's not serious about your conditions, then, yes, I'd do a Plan B...barring some miraculous realization happening very soon, of course.

Just finished reading this whole thread. If you have not given him that list, I have something you might want to seriously think about adding to it.

Add in there you need him to tell his family the TRUTH. Make him suck it up and be honest in that way as well.

I'd be seriously planning Plan B and be 100% certain you WILL implement it this time, in every way it's meant. Only then will you get sincerity or a kiss my butt out of him, one way or another.

i dont know what to say, he is making baby steps, he wrote the letter, i think if you say to him thank you for writing the letter, i appreciate the steps that you are taking, would you consider writing some of the other things( the stuff you want him to say)... but critisisng him on his letter you may be pushing him away from you goal of getting him to open up. he may not like the mommying you are doing..0

look up what shame reaaly means and entails on the internet- it tough

my friend north told me after weeks of trickle truth from my H. that i tell him

�Do you want to stay in this marriage or not? If you want a divorce then you need to go file for one. If you don't want a divorce, then I want to get all of our cards on the table now, get everything out so that there are no more trickle truths, no more lies, no more halfways because there is no way that I'm ever going to go through this again. If I get any hint of contact again with OW, then I'm out of here. So what do you want to do?�

i said almost exactly that ...thats what was the defining moment, i kissed him on the head, told him i loved him and but that was what i could take, now he came back with the FULL LIST. i was not happy but i accepted it.

call the harleys. please ask him to call with you, i think this is your only shot before plan b. it was life changing for my serial, emotionless, selfish, H. he is a differnt person from a few conversations with her. regardless of where we end up, he is happier that he is different, it has helped him in family, friend and work.

men enjoy fixing things, when there is so much shame, it overwhelming, especially if they caused it, it hard for them to fix it, they dont know where to begin. jennifer was so easy with him, and gave him a plan. now it only works if he wants it.. just ask him to try it, then figure out your plan, its one request, you deserve at least that.

Well said, chickadee.

I hope her husband is still agreeable to making their marriage work--or at least trying. The counseling sounds critical and, as you suggested, hopefully he'll agree to such a "simple" first step.

one hour of his time. not alot to ask. could be worse, he could lose his charmed life.

DL2ME- ask him, jennifer will help you with the EP's and the rest of it. you will get a sense if he is willing to save your M after it.

At the risk of you thinking that I'm on his side (I'm not), I thought I'd play devil's advocate with what you wrote:


Did you actually ask him to copy the one used in SAA?


But did he say that he was going to use the samples, or did you ask him to use the samples? If not, then can you see where he might feel frustrated by being criticized for doing something that he thought you told him to do?

Just try to see some things from his side if you can while weeding out the fogbabble. Empathy goes a long way sometimes and it may help defuse an escalating situation.

If I was a wayward, that argument would probably be sufficient for me to try counseling.

No Stress Zone, I have had issues with him and his family within these last 4-5 years. I want to include the stipulation that he tell his family the truth. He and I have discussed this at length. He does not see anything wrong with what he has told his family. Before he quit his job and left for PR, his co-worker would tell me about how he would go off about me. WH had been using 2nd prepaid phone and I told his sister about it. She did not want to believe me, but called him to confront him about the phone. His co-Worker said that WH got really mello-dramatic to the point of almost crying on the phone saying that he did not know why I keep on insisting that he has an A phone. She called me back and I then gave her the number and she called it and left a nasty message on the prepaid phone voicemail. She never admitted to me that I was right and that he was bullcrapping her. But I paid the price. Within 5 minutes of hearing his sister's message, he called AT&T and had the number changed. That's when I lost contact with it.

But Memorial Day weekend, his family had a reunion. First I was reluctant to go but I did. WH's brother's wife sat down and had a talk with me. She told me that the rest of the family have started to realize that the problems should not be put on my shoulders and he is as much or even more to blame. She let me know that they have started to really understand. I wanted to talk to my brother-in-law but I didn't at the reunion.

I am working on the list now. I will include it to see where this issue goes.

Dont,

How are your kids doing through this?

I see, North, from the point of view you present. I did not tell him to use any particular NCLetter, I may have assumed that he would not want to "reinvent the wheel." I'm sure that Dr. Harley would agree. I will talk to WH after the Heat-Mavs game in which he, DD and DS are so engrossed. I have no problem with apologizing. I think that I've had alot of practice at doing that lately.

I think they have gotten more used to the occasional AO. We were never really fighters, we usually talked out our issues with no harsh words or AOs.

I never exposed to the kids. But, my DD just finished her Freshman year is old enough to figure out what the issues could be. I tried to engage her in conversation to see what she may know, but she did not want to talk about it. My DS is 10 and just finished 4th grade. He has had to endure WH walking out on us and then him leaving for PR without coming to see him before he left. WH called and told him on the phone. They both are really close to their dad.

I never wanted to destroy their world. I know that I didn't. He did. I don't want DD to pull away from him due to the sensitive issue involved and seek male reassurance from some guy at some college drinking party.

North, do you mean don't include the stipulation about his family?

No, didn't mean to make it sound like that.

If his telling his family the truth is important to you, then, by all means, include it. I think they should know.

from this post by North?
I think Northwoods just shortened your name to start the post with. Considering the lines between it anyway.

I might be wrong about adding that in, but if it were me? I'd have it added as one of the top of the list things to be honest. I know how my stbxh had his family thinking about me, and I'd have expected him to acknowledge to his family that what he told them was every bit as disrespectful and full of lies as everything else he told anyone. I rather equate it with a full disclosure to everyone and anyone, difference being, he got to them first.

I'm glad to hear your BIL's wife told you that they were starting to believe him, be leery of what you tell them, I would NOT trust his family.

Oh, well that makes more sense!

Yes, I was just addressing her as "Don't"...for some reason, I couldn't find her name on my screen and couldn't remember how it was spelled.

One thing to remember, this list? Make sure whatever you put on there, you WILL STICK BY. ANY failure on his side, means a trip to the divorce attorney. These have to be things YOU NEED and WANT deep in your heart, for him to prove he wants to make this marriage work, and they can't be open to being blown off for him. If you give a quarter of an inch, it will all go up in smoke then.

I made that mistake back in 2002 when I first found the site and we tried working thru that first cyber affair my stbxh had, and I jumped the gun without really understanding what I was doing.

Can't write too much as the power is out And this is via cell phone.

All of the below have me very concerned:
Not exposing to your kids and his family
Not sending nc letter
Breaking Plan B without a recovery plan
WH doesn't have hat in hand and is trying to negotiate things thAt are non-negotiable

I strongly recommend that you call the radio show so that Dr Harley can tell you your next step because you are not on the right path right now.

Here

SMB and her FWH (HerPapaBear) are recovered today. The only thing I think they did differently than the list above is they did coaching with the Harley kids instead of the MC.

Sorry, it was a busy day yesterday and I didn't get a chance to let you know that I read all of the suggestions from North, SusieQ, Chick, and NoStressZone. I have incorporated the suggestions into my document and I have added to it. Included is that WH will sign a letter that I will write to his former boss/owner of the company requesting his time card (daily in and out time) for all of his working days of 2010 up to his last day on 2/18/11. I figured that since we need to be transparent, I want to know how much time he actually took off (unpaid)of which I was unaware in order to hook up with OW. I have wanted that for months, but the owner and his wife (good friends of ours) wouldn't give it to me but WH would have to make that request. I think it is hypocritical of WH to be upset about my not working full time because we need more $$, and he is taking off every chance he gets to go and meet OW, when he was paid by the hour.

We have arranged quiet time tomorrow (Sun) early evening to talk and go over what I present in writing. I will post later on Sunday or Mon morning to let you know how our time together went.

I wanted to answer about some of the areas that you all have expressed concern. Yes, I did not expose to my kids. That may be the only huge area that went against what the MB SAA program mandates that I did not at least attempt. I did expose to all of his family and mine. I should have exposed earlier. August 18, 2010 is when I confronted WH after finding the text messages on the prepaid cell. At that time he told me that he wanted to stay and work on our M. (Remember, Pre-MB) He seemed to be doing the right things for a while. Then the time between Labor Day and Thanksgiving we would have "bumpy spots" in what I now know was our FR. Between Thanksgiving and Christmas was pretty darn rocky. I believed that we were in R and that things would get better. There were a few LBs of WH's IB that I now know was WH taking off to meet OW. The week before Christmas I found a txt msg in his legit cell's "draft" box referencing his other phone would be working tomorrow. I was then convinced at that time it was only a FR.

I continued Plan A and he kept saying "Let me end it my own way." Still in Plan A from Christmas and on MLK Day, I called OWH and (unknowingly)exposed to him (WH told me that OWH knew.) My WH walked out that night, angry that I called OWH. He (officially) came home about 10 days later when I worked overnight about 2 hours away and he came home to stay with DS. When I arrived home he asked and I agreed that he could stay on the couch that night. Then he didn't leave. We never successfully finished our talk about officially going into R. But, he kept mentioning that he was going to leave again. On Fri. 1/28 I was on the MB Radio show and Dr. Harley told me to go into Plan B ASAP. I prepared, but kinda stalled with hope that something would change before that drastic step. We had really horrible winter weather that entire next week (DS was out of school for 4 straight days) so I put things on hold a few days. The following Monday late morning (2/7), I took 2 packed bags to his office and officially went into Plan B. I emailed him the Plan B letter the next morning and stayed in Plan B until he left for PR. No, I did not have a recovery plan when he got on that plane (on 2/22), but through our talks, (not face to face) I thought that we went into a "modified" R because he committed to return to work on our marriage and he told me that he had ended contact with OW(on Sun 2/20.) I had no reason to not believe him and couldn't prove otherwise.

On 3/25, I happened to find out that WH did had the prepaid phone and had been in constant contact with OW until 3/30 when payment wasn't made to continue the prepaid for the next month. I was so mad. ( and I thought he would have been through withdrawal with his mother but that was not going to be the case.)

After being away for 11 weeks, it was difficult trying to work the details out. We arrived at a "skeletal understanding" and agreed to work out the particulars when he got back in town. And i guess with the stuff that have kept us busy, things have gotten away from us (me).

We had a good talk yesterday (Fri) morning. I think that he is sincere. I think that this "attitude" I have seen may be his being pissed off with himself b/c we now have to resort to these measures.) And the issue about the bracelet, I believe, he does not want to hurt me because of the nature of the gift. By now, I would have picked up on any "shifty" behavior. WH is not looking for excuses to be alone. He has spent a lot of time with me and with the kids. WH leaves his phone available for me to check whenever I want. In prep for his Family Reunion that was held Memorial Day Sat. he mentioned wanting to go the day before to help set up. I told him that it would not be possible b/c the reunion was at the home of the uncle that lives in the area where WH has (2x) hooked up with OW, and that our family would go together (but we could arrange to arrive early for him to help if he wanted). There was no issue whatsoever about my vetoing his plan.

I am committed to be firm on my points, especially those that are non-negotiable. I will fill you in as soon as I can. Thanks again for your words of true wisdom.

This should go into the FALSE RECOVERY text book to illustrate "What not to do".

What a colossal error.

Specifics will save your marriage.
ie: "This (behavior) is OK. This (other behavior) is not Ok."


LINK to FR thread in RECOVERY forum !!!

I can see why now and fully agree about it being a huge error on my part. Pepper, you have my express permission to add this one to the FR list.

No, I prefer people share their own FR stories.
I never experienced a FR myself.
I rely on the hard earned wisdom of those who have.

Click on the link and answer the 3 questions.
Pay it forward to others.

Thanks.

I certainly will. Thanks

DontLie, he needs to be 100% O&H and answer all of your questions truthfully about the affair. If he is still lying, he is going to remain foggy regardless of whatever you think he is trying to protect you or not. That is the reason that we suggest such radical things like the poly ~ it will help bring your WH out of the fog.

DontLie, your kids KNOW that there is a serious issue if your WH left the home for such a long period of time. Haven't they asked what happened? What did you tell them?

You know that one of the reasons Dr Harley advocates exposing to the kids is because if you don't, they may blame themselves for the marital problems, right?

Again, this will HELP your H. Exposure is win-win. It will help your children to understand what is going on, it will teach them to trust you with telling them the truth and the more people that your H is accountable to, the better ~ it will help defog him and increase your chances of a successful R.

I really hope that you will reconsider this.

One more...

I listened to your radio show and I'm very sorry to hear about your autoimmune disease and all that you have been through. {{{DontLie}}}

Have you listened to the show again recently? If not, please consider doing so because Dr Harley and Joyce's advice still holds value for what you are going through today.

For example, Dr Harley expressed that you were not really following his plans but were rather in a Plan C, which is the most likely to lead to divorce and Joyce was concerned that you had been floundering around too long and weren't seeing the situation clearly, since you were sympathetic towards your H despite everything he had been doing to you.

To me, it sounds like your H is a master gaslighter and you have become accustomed to this. This is why you need to ignore what he says and look at what he is willing to do.

If your H is not willing to do what he needs to to help you heal and to protect you, DontLie, you are going to have to be strong and let him go so that you can focus on your health. OK? I will be thinking about you tonight as you have your talk and lay out your REQUIREMENTS (not suggestions)

Some time has passed since I posted because I wanted to make sure that we were truly progressing, so forgive me. I will bring my saga up to date, but first I had something happen that I am not sure if I handled it in the best way possible.

Night before last I was awakened by my WH who was in need of SF. While in the middle of things, he commented on my arousal level, saying something like "Wow, your p***y is.... I was very stunned by his statement, because I (we) never have used language like this. I (we) have always used proper names for things and parts of body etc. I stopped a second, gave him a strange (unapproving) look, then quickly allowed things to continue. It was so offensive to me that under any other circumstances (pre A) I would have immediately stopped and the fun would have been over.

Before dinner last night, we were out grilling and I brought up the comment and my feelings. I chose to address it because I fear that if I didn't, it would only be the start of the use of similar language. How I addressed it was in no way close to a LB (I was actually proud of myself). He defended by saying that he's sure that he has used "that word" with me before. (That is untrue.) Then he stated, "Let's say, within the last 5-6 years, I guess I've probably used the word no more than 5 times. Well, his A falls within that time frame.

This really got me thinking about him and the OW, and that he probably talked to her like that. I later asked if it was possible that he could have used the word to her. He said no, that he didn't use that word with her, or referring to her. So, immediately thought that while he wouldn't use that word with the OW, but he will with his W of now 23 years, like I'm the Ho, not her.

I don't think he will use the word around me intentionally. But, is there anything that I should have done or done differently regarding this issue?

I split my mobile phone account which then changed the number today and the request to get my old number back should be completed within about 48 hours. My WH says that NC with OW started on March 30. OW has made several attempts to contact him. There is question as to whether OW was successful the week after Father's Day. He then finally changed his mobile number in Early July. (No problems since the change.) I don't think I am getting the truth and he insists NC w/ her. There are several facts that he is still not coming clean on. I don't feel that we can't go too much further toward true Recovery until he corrects all of the un- and half-truths he has led me believe. I know the truth because I have found solid proof.

With a new unrecognized number, and it only working for a short period of time, I want to text OW as WH, to see how she responds. I did this about about 3 weeks after the PA D-Day with the A phone I found and took from him and it was about 3 hours of back and forth texts before I said something that tipped her that I was not WH. I need some clue whether there has really been NC. And with WH's number changed, she will not be able to contact him. If I send a text, it would be something short like "R U OK?" Then I'd wait. I sent a text to WH's phone and only the number came up (without my name) I know that she would see the area code and OW would jump at it. I know that she has probably attempted contact since his number changed.

Should I do it? What do you experts think?

Arrange a polygraph. That might help--and the closer you get to the appointment the more likely he is to spill.

My WH and I have been working toward Recovery since his return (5/2011). I wrote a clear 5 page Recovery Agreement which he signed. The 5 pages covered everything I could think of, leaving no room for any possible deviation from the spirit of what needs to happen in our marriage.

One of the items in the agreement is for us to (together) go over the different concepts or subjects and discuss how that it impairs or would enhance our relationship. The issue we read about and discuss may be the MB concept or anything else (like my ADHD) that negatively impacts our relationship and home life. We were doing this last night (after a long hiatus b/c of vacation, traveling, and getting both kids ready to return to school) and he began to share his thoughts with me. WH starts talking about how he has to live with the fact that he had the A, and messed up his and our life. (He is now job hunting b/c his employer could not keep his job waiting for him when he decided to board a plane to P.R. and was there for exactly 11 weeks.) When discussing his infidelity WH tends to focus on his pain. I have noticed for a while and I am starting to wonder if this means anything or not. He was very involved in our faith and before the A was having a crisis of faith. He would talk about it periodically when we would meet with our small prayer group. I started to think that it was too painful for him to address my feelings, etc. Or maybe he just hasn't gotten it yet. When he returned he said and did all of the "right" things in order to return home. I know that I didn't have the typical Plan B, but I believe his sincerity when we talked upon his return. One of the issues that seems to be a struggle is his (not) wanting to fulfill my EN. He has always had difficulty doing unpleasant things and has always found a way to do the "reward" first instead. I've pointed out to him a few times where Dr. Harley says that to begin fulfilling EN at first does not feel comfortable b/c we would naturally want to avoid anyone who does not have a sufficient Love Bank balance. I don't know if it's because he does not want to believe it or not. I have been fulfilling his EN without question.

A few days ago he told me that he spoke to a few friends and told them about the agreement and they thought it was a waste of paper. Even though he does not think much of the agreement he signed, it seems that he is abiding by it. He said that the agreement would not keep him from doing something if he wanted to do it. There have been no new problems or issues, andthere has been NC. WH changed his mobile phone number on his own.

Sometimes he says things and I question whether he "gets it" or not. Its not so blatent that would signal me to ask him to leave and go into a dark Plan B, but it is does alarm me enough to wonder what or how he is thinking.

Any suggestions?

I want to comment on the post before this one that you made. You said you weren't sure that there had been NC with OW and you wanted to pretend to be your WH and text OW to find out for sure. There needs to be other things you do to find out. You also can't take your WH's word for it.

Hop on over to The investigation forum to find out all of the tools you can use to make sure that your WH is in NC with OW.

Sorry, but I don't know all of your story. Was there a NC letter sent out?

As far as what you could be and should be doing in regards to recovery, I don't know much about it, but what I do know is that your WH should be remorseful and falling over himself trying to do whatever he can to help you recover.

Dontlietome,

I read your entire thread and listened to your radio show and posted to you and I don't believe you really responded directly to my concerns.

Could you do so now? Namely:

If you can answer our questions, we can quickly help you ascertain whether your WH is serious about recovery and help you get your recovery plan together.

Thanks!

He seems to be pretty self-centered. Does he act as though he did you a favor by returning?


The self-centered, almost arrogant attitude is going to have to stop on his end or you'll burn out fast. And then you'll be back where you started before all this hit the fan.


Why would they say that if he hadn't presented it in a mocking manner? I can picture that conversation now, and I would almost bet on how it was presented to them. Too, why would he tell you that except to invalidate it..."See, others think it's nuts, too!"


What is that supposed to be, a threat? I'd have called him out on that immediately and told him he'd better think twice before EVER saying that again!

My wife said the exact same thing when she was "working" on the marriage.

You'll notice the difference between "working" and "working" on a marriage. Unless you meant otherwise, just reading your last post reeks of a self-centered, self-righteous quasi-foggy wayward who's just doing enough to get by and stay out of trouble.

I wouldn't trust him at all, put a keylogger on his computer and spyware on his cell if you haven't already done so.


My suggestion? Tell him to cut the crap, grow the eff up, be a man, put on his big-boy pants and either get serious or get the hell out.

I'm serious, I'd tell him to decide today, tonight, this instant, what it's going to be because you're not going to live with any indecision on what should be an easy question to answer.

Otherwise, I fear you guys will settle into some ho-hum routine and be back where you were earlier. There are no halfways any longer, he's either in all the way or out.

Oh, and his "buddies" that he's laughing about your letter with need to make a quick exit, in my opinion. If they're not for you (plural) then they're not friends of your marriage.

Everything has to change, it has to be different from here on out.

Good luck, I think you've got a shot if you can get him to cut the crap.

Thanks for answering my post, Scotland. I forgot to mention that part of the story. A NC letter was mailed on the Thursday before Father's Day. I mailed it myself at our local P.O. The letter was addressed to her where she works. He did a little balking about doing the letter at first, stating that he has had NC since March 30, so he did not see the reason why to send one. But when it became apparent to us that it was OW trying to contact him (from her work phone,) he then saw why it really was a good idea. She sent him a text on Father's Day wishing him a Happy Father's Day but didn't answer it. OW must have gotten the letter The day after on Monday because she texted him about 5 times within about 3 hours. He did not answer them from examination of the phone records. All that tells me is that WH may have contacted her back, but it was not on his own phone. He forgot to bring his cell phone charger and his phone went dead. WH called me using his sister's phone. I don't really believe that I was the only one he called with her cell phone. But of course, he denies calling any one else and his sister is backing him on this one.

About the post I made regarding me sending a text to OW, I decided not to send it.

Thanks, SusieQ. I will go down your list and address them.

Yes, I mentioned several months ago that I have not exposed to the kids. But I did expose to his family, and my family as well.

No, NC Letter was mailed the Thursday before Father's Day.

No, we did not have the recovery plan written exactly at that time, but there is one in place now. I presented it to him and he promptly signed it. I answered Scotland in an earlier post regarding recent comments about the Recovery agreement.

Yes, it doesn't seem that he has his hat in his hand. I don't know what non-negotiable he is trying to negotiate.

It is still apparent that WH "blames" me for everything. You can hear it in the way he talks. But then he acknowledges that he is responsible for our situation and everything that has happened because of his A. I started to question him about why he seems to blame me for putting us in a position for him to be so frustrated to the point to succumb to what he did. But he then says that he alone is responsible for his actions of participating in the A. I am not sure what to make of his statements. I don't know how to challenge WH's reasoning and (hopefully) help change his perspective.

Thanks, NorthWood. I agree with you. The question is HOW do I help to turn his thinking around? What should I say to challenge his beliefs?

Surprisingly, he is not been a self-centered person. In fact, the exact opposite. Maybe this self-centered attitude arrived along with his male mid-life crisis.

We were reading some information on ADHD the other night and it addressed the issue of the inability to regulate attention to tasks. He would get angry about my being "glued" to the computer. This information explained why and how it happens, giving a medical explanation to an issue he has always blamed me for. I have asked him many times to familiarize himself with all of the medical issues that I have so he understands what I have to deal with. But then he gets upset with me for what he perceives is something I have chosen to do. An example of this happened on Saturday. I spent about 3 hours in the hot sun for our DS's football jamboree.(practice scrimmage). After we arrived home, he suggested the 3 of us go on a bike ride. I did not answer. The next day WH uses this against me as an example of how I "don't want to do things as a family." I asked WH if he thought that maybe I was pretty wiped out by being in the hot sun and did not feel up to going on a ride. He seemed to understand and see that from a different (mine) perspective. What is coming to light is that WH has had alot of resentment toward me and its starting to look as if he really has no reason to be angry with me.

I have not gotten the impression that he feels as if he was doing me a favor by returning home. He was away at his mom's for 11 weeks, and I had NO help from any of his family. He knows that I can take care of things here. The truth is he knows that I am the one doing him the favor.

I agree with you about the recovery agreement. He would not tell me which friends shared that opinion with him.

I am interested in your opinion on how I should proceed.

Why didn't you answer? A serious question, as he seemed to not "get it" and assumed something that wasn't true at all. That's not to jump on you, of course, but just to play devil's advocate.


But you can see why he would jump to that conclusion, right? Would you have thought the same? It was a mere communication lapse, but explaining the "why" earlier would have prevented any conflict later on.

And if that was an effort, no matter how paltry, to do something "right" on his part, then it may be worthwhile to acknowledge the effort even if it wasn't done how you would have preferred.

Food for thought.


Playing the other side again, but maybe he did have a reason to be angry if he wasn't hearing something that would make him think otherwise. Pretending you were him, would you have responded much differently given the same amount of information?

I cannot count the number of false assumptions that me and my wife have made of the other that were, in the end, not really an issue at all had we actually talked about the perceived conflict. We assumed too much and never bothered asking for clarification to see if our irritations held any validity at all.


For me, it was getting fed up with the game--the halfways, the kinda-sortas, the "I'm not sures" and other examples of being halfway married and halfway not. It was just saying "Look, either you go file for a divorce tomorrow or get with the program. Enough is enough because I don't need to be married this badly." I have enough mind games with our children and don't need it from an adult, know what I mean? I'd tell him to "say what you mean and decide what you're going to do, and do it now."

And as for the friends, I'd tell him to cut the two-faced crap. It's his job to stick up for his wife, and any friends that don't agree with that could hit the road. Saying one thing to your spouse and then another to your friends is, well, reminiscent of middle school antics. Call him out on that if that's what he is doing.

So there are my two-cents. It's just game-time, he's either in or out and nowhere in between. I imagine he'll understand that logic fairly well. Take care.

It's been a long, long time since I have posted on our progress toward recovery. I kept waiting for something that clearly showed that we were undoubtedly headed in the right direction toward full recovery, but I didn't get anything quite big enough in that positive direction.

The first thing I want to say is to those yet to recover. PLEASE LISTEN TO THESE EXPERTS. THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT!!! DON'T BE LIKE ME AND WISH YOU HAD LISTENED AND TAKEN THEIR ADVISE.

OK, now to "us." As short catch-up of the situation- Almost exactly 2 years ago I discovered WH in an affair with the college GF (before me) and a few weeks later I had proof it was PA. Numerous times we went through the "it's over" and calls/texts would begin within a few weeks. He pulled a few slick numbers leaving me at home with DS while he made a trip alone or to return alone. He finally got sloppy and I found evidence of another prepaid phone for their communication. January 2011 I got sick of it all and called OWH and found out he really did not know about the A. WH got angry, packed a bag and stormed out. He returned about 2 weeks later. I was on radio show on 1/28/2011. A few days later, I packed WH's bag and took it to him at work with a Plan B letter. About 2 weeks later he was on a plane to the Carribean because he met up with OW and afterwards had an emotional meltdown after their last "goodbye" hookup. He quit his job from a payphone while waiting for his flight to leave, essentially abandoning DS and me. He remained with his mom for 11 weeks. He had been saying all of the right things, making the right promises so I let him come home. About 3 weeks after his return, OW started texting and calling his cell phone. He signed our recovery agreement, wrote OW a NC letter and then promptly changed the cell number and it stopped. Fast forward to late Sept. 2011, I found a hidden house phone bill with a slew of calls from our home phone to OW. They had been in constant contact since her first attempt after he came home and knowing I would check his cell phone records, he used our home phone. Late Nov, he offered the reason for contact that OW had developed a drinking problem and WH was encouraging her to seek treatment. The last contact I can document was 12/21/2011. Our DD switched cell carriers for an iPhone and WH decided to let his cell phone go(1/2012) as they shared an account. While WH says he has had no contact with OW, I have not found any evidence that suggests continued contact. Things have still been up and down since then.

During disagreements, he always throws up in my face the issues he has with me (work full-time outside the house.) I've asked him (knowing the answer) about his progress on our relationship and he freely and honestly admits that he really has done nothing to work toward recovery. He seems to be sitting back with his arms folded, waiting for me to "change" before he makes up his mind to do anything.

The other day, he needed to go help his cousin who is having problems with his depression. I told him that under the circumstances he should go but I did not like it and that I will need to learn to face my fears, some which may be irrational. I began to cry and he got angry and said that he asked me about going and all he wanted was a simple yes or no, that's all. It was apparent that he did not want to deal with my feelings. He does not seem to have totally and completely owned up to the A and there always seems to be a "but" after his statement of taking ownership. I still many times feel that he still just doesn't "get it." He has not totally come clean, especially about what happened when he had the meltdown and his uncle and brother made the decision (without even trying to notify me of the situation) and bought the ticket to send him to his mom. I have had so many triggers and when I have tried to talk about my feelings, he then tells me that he has them too.

A family wedding this past April was really hard. I was going to be with all of the family members who played a part in condoning the A as well as sending him away last year. During the wedding ceremony, he managed to move from where we were seated to get a better picture camera angle. Instead of returning to sit with us, he sat with his mother, 3 rows in front of us. At the reception, he danced for the first hour with our DD (who was in the wedding) and with some cousins and aunts and his mom. He finally came back to the table and then asked me to dance. I declined his invitation, and he did not like what I had to say to him about it. With regard to his family, I believe that he has told them that he has decided that since DS will soon be 12, he will stick it out until DS leaves home. I say that because no matter how "good" things are between us, whenever we get around his family, he becomes cold and sterile with me. No touching, no walk to the car, no kiss goodbye, etc.

With regard to the "work" issue, WH is still looking for work. He has not worked since he quit in Feb. 2011. I am still doing the Part-time work I was before. I do not feel bad that he has had to borrow from his family, because they helped to get him into this situation. My family has helped, but they did not hear his one side of the story and agree that he should quit his job and abandon his family. And under the circumstances he has been applying more pressure for me to work (f/t). But I can guarantee you that if he is not working and I do go full-time, he will not stay here in my house. But I don't think he quite believes that.

My areas of concern are essentially, How do I turn this ship around? Please help me!!

And I am especially hopeful to get any insight from any FWH like GloveOil who can help me understand and decipher his thought process and what they may believe is really going on as well as the next actions I should take. Thanks for listening.

Wow, nearly a year has passed and nothing has changed.

Does that about sum it up?

He still hasn't come clean to his family it seems.

He still isn't making decisions about recovery because there's no reason for him to. There are no consequences.

A $100 says he's still in contact with OW because, again, there's no reason for him not to be.

Sadly, I'd say go to Plan B and file for a divorce. You'll then have the bases covered with a financial agreement in place and some distance between you and his drama. You might consult an attorney to see what your options are.

I think you're wasting your time because nothing will change on his end until the bottom comes up and he actually fears losing something. By then, of course, you may have moved on with life. I don't sense that you're fed up yet, but wonder how much longer you are going to want to stay in this limbo. This isn't marriage at all costs.

Thanks for you honest opinion. I was afraid but expecting that you would suggest Plan B. With his attitude, I am sure it would probably be the best for me and the kids.

His family knows everything that happened including things that I don't. What does he have to "come clean" with them about?

DontLie2Me, I'm sorry for where you find yourself with respect to your husband's apparent lack of "on-boardness" as well as the tortuous path by which he's arrived even to the point where he's at now.

I don't think I've much if any insight to offer as to your husband's state of mind, as our post D-day trajectories have been very different, and I'm pretty out of my depth in terms of MB approaches when it comes to WHs who leave home or get into "Plan B" territory.



It takes two to be onboard, I realize, and if he's not, then things aren't going to work. You can't make him get himself right, you can only take care of your side of things, as the best way to improve the dynamics between the two of you. In that regard, you might want to look at how you engage with him, just day-to-day. Some of the things that you said above, or the way you described them, jumped out at me a little bit, as veering into the territory of disrespectful judgements (which don't help coming from a WS or a BS), assumptions (where direct communication might be better), mixed signals (saying he can go but that you don't like it, instead of using POJA), and passive-aggressive comments (such as your telling him that you'll just have to learn to face your fears, when what you might really mean is that you want him to help you face your fears). BTW, I'm not harshing on you here, just tossing out some thoughts, none of which is any panacea, I know.

But I haven't really followed your story, and I really don't want to steer you wrong or give you half-baked suggestion, so better for your to hear from others who've got more experience & knowledge relevant to your particular circumstances.

Thanks, GloveOil, for your comments. And, yes they are very helpful. I did not realize the implications of what I'm saying to WH. You are correct when I said that I have to learn to "face my fears" because I really do feel that he should be helping me to overcome them with loving encouragement and reassurance that he will not have contact with OW or likewise anyone else. He articulated that he would have preferred for me to say "no" than for me to say "yes" and say what I was feeling. And I do fear that (without a cell phone) he will ask to borrow his uncle's or cousin's phone and call me, but slip a call to OW as well. I really want to ask his family to check their records or make them available for me to assure me that he has not done that. If I did ask for the records, I doubt that they would either let me see them or they wouldn't tell me if they checked and found calls to OW.

I have started to formulate in my head what I will need to say to start Plan B again, especially after no apparent big disagreement.

In looking at the "Buyers, Renters, Freeloaders" analogy, he seems to be a Renter. While this helps with regard to understanding how much he may be willing to do for the relationship, I don't know if there may be a particular approach that I should take with him.