Marriage Builders
Posted By: marksaysay At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/04/11 03:47 PM
I will try to be brief. Wife and I seperated in October. I moved out thinking I was doing the right thing for wife and daughter. The separation was due to the "I'm in love with you but not in love with you" speech and she needed time to think. It was also amplified by my pornography addiction and her finding out that it was continuing.

So I move out, then back in temporarily because the people I stayed with only allowed me a few days. During my brief stint back, I discovered signs of her infidelity. I found text messages. I found dating website correspondences to several guys. I found phone calls to and from men on the site. I confronted and exposed. I called one guy from the website and told him she was still married. He quickly stopped communicating with her and she filed for divorce the next day. I got no support from anyone. Her mother said this is just what happens. Her dad's reply was "How did you find out?".

I told our pastor and he said he couldn't make her come back to me, but i was wanting him to address the other stuff. I knew he couldn't make her come back, but I also knew that with all the lying and deciet and adultery and everything else, she was at least in a backslidden condition. I felt he should at least point those things out to her, but he wouldn't. So I left the church feeling that if our pastor couldn't take a stand against what was wrong then I was at the wrong place. I know he may not have been successful in changing her mind, but he would have at least let her know the biblical consequences of her actions especially since she holds a position in the church but very rarely comes anymore.

Anyways, I've done all that I know I can do, I suppose and am now in Plan B. I sent her the letter via email, which is also the only form of communication I will accept due to our daughter. She quickly responded and continues to maintain that she needs the divorce to be happy.

I accept that I am half to blame for my marriage problems. I've spent the last 5+ months going to counseling, reading books, educating myself about relationships, and anything in between. I've made GREAT progress with the porn issue and I continue to make changes. Unfortunately, many of the changes I needed to make are not ones that i can show her from a distance.

I don't know what else I can do.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/04/11 11:19 PM
Mark, are you married? If so, how long married? How old is your daughter and are you still paying your W's bills?
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/04/11 11:38 PM
Yes. Been married for 10 years. Our daughter is 7 yrs old.

No, I am not paying her bills. The situation is kind of different. I eventually found an apartment in November and signed 6 month lease. I know that was the worst thing I could have ever done but I didn't know half as much then as I know now. She then decided to move out of our marital home since it was only in my name, stating that she would stick me with the financial responsibility and that it was the only way she could be free to do what she wanted.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/04/11 11:47 PM
Is there a specific reason you want to go into Plan B now? Are you worn out from Plan A?
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/05/11 12:10 AM
I don't really know what else to do. She is still doing the same things she was doing, although I'm not sure to what extent. I do know she's still on dating websites. I believe she's been dating. No one has expressed to her that what shes doing is wrong. Not her mother. Not her father. What else can I do. Isn't plan b for the purpose of helping me heal? Isn't it supposed to let her really feel what its like to not have me in her life since that's the way she seems to feel?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/05/11 12:34 AM
I am really torn on what to tell you, Mark, and I think you should email Dr Harley and see what he thinks. [it is free - just email the radio show and Joyce will read your email to Dr Harley] On one hand, I think it might be too soon to go into Plan B. I just think you might have a better chance of pulling this out if you stayed in Plan A. She will get sick of the player lifestyle soon enough and when that happens, you would have a chance to pull this out.

You said earlier she filed for divorce. When is your divorce final?
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/05/11 01:24 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
You said earlier she filed for divorce. When is your divorce final?

Don't really know. We've already been to what was supposed to be the final hearing but since we didn't agree on the details, the judge ordered us to mediation. I'm not sure when that will happen either. It costs $220/hr and we're supposed to split the cost. I'm so behind on everything else right now, i don't know when I will have the money. My financial situation is another long story.

You said to email Dr. Harley. What do I tell him? There are so many details. I'm afraid to be too short and too long at the same time. I want him to get the total picture.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/05/11 01:40 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
[
You said to email Dr. Harley. What do I tell him? There are so many details. I'm afraid to be too short and too long at the same time. I want him to get the total picture.

Tell him what you said in your post on this thread, but add some pertinent facts such as how long married, age of your child and mention the fact that your W filed for divorce when you exposed her affair. Joyce will probably ask you to call in so Dr Harley can ask you more questions. He has an uncanny knack for quickly getting to the crux of the situation.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/05/11 01:53 AM
Okay. Composing the email now.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/05/11 10:52 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
On one hand, I think it might be too soon to go into Plan B. I just think you might have a better chance of pulling this out if you stayed in Plan A. She will get sick of the player lifestyle soon enough and when that happens, you would have a chance to pull this out.

What is it that causes you to think it's too soon to go Plan B? How can an extended Plan A work while we are separated like we are?
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/05/11 11:20 PM
Plan A isn't as effective while the couple is separated BUT it can somewhat easier emotionally for the BS.

Let's get some advice from DrH, and then you can know what direction you need to move in.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/06/11 12:03 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
On one hand, I think it might be too soon to go into Plan B. I just think you might have a better chance of pulling this out if you stayed in Plan A. She will get sick of the player lifestyle soon enough and when that happens, you would have a chance to pull this out.

What is it that causes you to think it's too soon to go Plan B? How can an extended Plan A work while we are separated like we are?

The purpose of Plan B is to protect the BS from the affair. If you are not suffering physical/emotional symptoms from her affair, then you might want to stay in Plan A and look for opportunities to win her back. Dr H tells men to stay in Plan A as long as possible because they often able to win their wives back when the affair[s] fall apart. The wild card in your situation is that this is not just one affair, but an adulterous way of life. That is why I think you should get Dr H's feedback.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/06/11 05:00 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
The purpose of Plan B is to protect the BS from the affair. If you are not suffering physical/emotional symptoms from her affair, then you might want to stay in Plan A and look for opportunities to win her back. Dr H tells men to stay in Plan A as long as possible because they often able to win their wives back when the affair[s] fall apart. The wild card in your situation is that this is not just one affair, but an adulterous way of life. That is why I think you should get Dr H's feedback.

Since the final hearing wasn't the final hearing, some emotions that I'd thought had been overcome came back. I went from having accepted that on March 11th, I would be no longer married. I came out of the court room that day happy and somewhat confused. I began to worry again about who she's with and what she's doing. I had stopped doing that. I don't really do it much anymore since a few weeks have now passed and my emotions have now settled but I am now bothered, again, that our pastor wouldn't at least address it knowing everything that she's been doing (I told him and showed him proof), whether she heeds his input or not. I'm bothered because I know that her mother has been enabling her because she watches our daughter while my wife goes out and does who knows what. I don't really know if she has or hasn't connected with someone from the site or otherwise, but I do know that as of about 2 weeks ago, she was still going there daily.

I don't know if the fact that she is actively pursuing a new relationship is good or bad. It may be bad in the sense that she is totally over us and wants to move on. It may be good in a sense that this is just not they type of behavior of someone, in my opinion, who is in touch with reality and really wants to allow themself the adaquate time to heal from a 11+ year relationship before pursuing another. I do know that whatever it is, it is still the wrong way to do it when you are still married.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/06/11 10:48 PM
For all you veterans, while I wait on a response for Dr. Harley, what type of suggestions do you have? What can I do while separated that could possible benefit me in my effort and desire to pull my marriage out of the trash heap? I will say that she has pretty much stated repeatedly that she doesn't want to work on the marriage.

I told her months ago that I understand my mistakes and have worked on most of them and continue to do so. I told her that we could be happy together again. And I now know I probably shouldn't have said this, but I told her that I could make her happy. Her reply was, "I know you can, but I don't want you to."
This is another sign, to me, that some of her needs are being met somewhere else, thus she has no desire for me to meet them.

It's quite difficult for me to talk to her in any fashion because she always finds a reason to try to divert the attention and blame for her mistakes to me. For example, I asked her at the beginning that if she wanted the divorce, then that's fine. I asked her to just honor the marriage by refraining from all of the other activities until we are divorced. I said because as a married woman, presenting yourself on a dating website as single, texting other guys, etc. is wrong. Her response was that the way I treated her during our marriage was wrong. Understand that I've never not accepted my responsibility for where our marriage is, but she refuses to take any.

I just don't know what can be done. Any suggestions would be helpful.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/06/11 11:03 PM
I would look for openings and when you have one, be as pleasant as possible. Send her a birthday card or a "thinking of you" card.
Posted By: MichaelJan Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/07/11 12:33 AM

Dr. H knows best, but you should read his Surviving An Affair, an updated version preferably. In that book he implicitly recommends that a BS write letters to a WS. He writes that he counseled the BS, John, to write letters to his WW about "what he had learned and what he would like to do to resolve their problems. These letters allowed John to think through his own thoughts so that he would accurately convey his feelings without expressing anger, disrespect, or demands." I wrote letters to my WW and although it did not win her back to me, I have no regrets about failing to take this step.

You should also read his book Love Busters. It showed me some of the things I had done wrong in my marriage.

If you had a problem with porn, this suggests to me that you failed to communicate with your wife your sexual needs and don't count your blessings in life. I know; I had similar problems. Are you taking concrete steps to rid yourself of this habit?

-----------------------------------------------
Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again)
Her: WW, 33
Never lived together
Married 6 years; together 10 years
2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8)
Her EA: Fall '08
She moves out of our home: 10/16/09
Informally separated
D-day: 01/22/10
D-day #2: 06/28/10
Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family
In Plan B since 11/15/10
Her region is a 50/50 custody area
OM stopped working with her 08/10
Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10
Wife files for D: 02/10/11
Still hopeful and confident
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/07/11 01:05 AM
Yes, I've written a couple of letters. Here is a small exert from one:

I�m sorry for being so unwilling to truly open up to you. That�s not your fault. It�s not your fault that I felt so alone for years that I learned to hold my emotions in because I felt as if no one cared enough to listen. It�s not your fault that I was unable to see how the first 24 years of my life had so negatively affected me to the point that it became a problem in my marriage. It is something that I�ve recognized and another way that I�ve vowed to make a change. Transparency and vulnerability. That�s what I�ve learned are so important. Transparency to the point of letting your spouse know all of your inner thoughts and feelings. Transparency to the point of not feeling threatened or afraid at what your spouse may think about your feelings. Vulnerability to the point of being able to say what you feel and crying if you have to so that your heart is openly exposed. Those are the things that I�ve learned. I didn�t fully understand then how I was trying to force you to be like me, cold and callused to the struggles of life. That I guess is what I was trying to do by not allowing you to express your hurts to me. That�s what I was trying to when I wouldn�t let you tell me about your problems at work. That�s what I was trying to do when I wouldn't allow you to cry on my shoulder when you needed to. Life had made me so cold and calloused that I tried to make you the same way. I fully understand now what I was doing and I�M SORRY.

This was in response to a letter she sent me back in February explaining why we had to get a divorce. Obviously she did nothing but point out a lot of issues we had. She brought up things from 8 or 9 years ago. I didn't try to explain away all her complaints. I just wanted to really express myself, which I did.

Yes, I've been in counseling since October for my "problem" and while I can't say that it has been totally removed, I can count the # of times I've actually viewed it in the past 6 months. For me, that is good. I do understand that I'm not totally there yet, but I've made great progress and will continue to do so. These forums have been a great replacement as well as utilizing prayer and bible study.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/08/11 04:28 PM
Still nothing yet from Dr. Harley. How long does it usually take? I've actually emailed twice. One to the generic radio show address and one to jharley's.

Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/10/11 01:40 AM
Is anyone willing to give me advice? I would appreciate anything that might help me. Someone said that it was too soon for Plan B. I've emailed Dr. Harley twice and I'm waiting for a response. Until then, can someone give me any type of guidance?
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/10/11 02:08 AM
If it is too early for you to be in Plan B, then my advice would be to be in Plan A.

Have you identified your WW's top 5 ENs? Have you identified the LBs that you have been committing? Do you have anyway of being able to meet your WW's ENs tomorrow? How are you going to stop committing those LBs?

While you are in Plan A, you also need to be planning for Plan B. I am sorry, I do not remember all details of your sitch. Have you gone to a lawyer to see what you can expect legally?

Have you read up everything you can on the carrot and stick of Plan A? When in Plan A, it is important to understand that it is about doing this with NO EXPECTATIONS. If you do something, you do it because it is something that you would do as a good husband. You don't do it and think, "My WW will do this...." If you do Plan A with any expectations, you will get drained very easily.

Are you taking care of yourself? Getting exercise? Eating? Sleeping? Doing things that are not harmful to expend your anger and hurt feelings? It will be hard to keep your Taker at bay, but a great Plan A demands that you do just that. Any questions?
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/10/11 02:18 AM
I guess I may not have perfectly followed through on the Plan A, I guess mainly due to the seperation and her determination to divorce. When I would talk to her, she would do nothing but bring up all the things I did wrong in our marriage. I am fully aware of those, but it just bothers me that she accepts no responsibility for anything. Having now read most of SAA, I understand this is normal.

Yes, I identified the LB's and her EN's months ago, but it has just been so difficult to try to fill the voids I created with the space and all.

I am not angry. I've never really expressed any anger towards her throughout this. She's been pretty nasty at times but I CAN NOT return evil for evil. I won't.

I will have to read up on that fog responses you mentioned. Thanks.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/10/11 02:30 AM
Also, where can this fog responses thread be found. I did a search and couldn't find it.
Posted By: Miss M Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/10/11 05:44 PM

The reverse babble thread is gone. Determined to be a DJ.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/10/11 10:48 PM
Miss M, thanks for the thread. That was exactly what I needed. I guess I need to get good at being quick on my feet. Some of those responses were in some ways counterproductive when you consider the desired results, but maybe the point at that time is not anything other than diversion.

Also, I was reading through SAA and learned that I really didn't do a good Plan a at all when I think about the disrespectful judgments that were made. Yes, I believe what she had done and is doing is wrong, but I think I made things worse by trying to convince her of that. I am tempted to compose another letter basically apologizing for those actions and letting her know that I continue to educate myself on my many issues.

Do you guys think this would help at all? I think I may even be tempted to try plan a again. Another question is do you think it would do any good to go back after almost 3 weeks of plan b?
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/11/11 02:07 AM
I would say that the time is for ACTION. SHOW her that you have changed. SHOW her that you are willing to meet ENs, after the A is over. She most likely won't let you close enough to meet those ENs now anyways.

I have bumped up the newly betrayed thread. In case you didn't get a chance to read it, or have forgotten some of it since then, give it another look.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/11/11 02:42 AM
Originally Posted by Scotland
I would say that the time is for ACTION. SHOW her that you have changed. SHOW her that you are willing to meet ENs, after the A is over. She most likely won't let you close enough to meet those ENs now anyways

This is precisely why I thought it was necessary to go Plan B. I haven't been able to get close enough to meet her EN's for quite a while. What can I do? How do I do it from a distance since we are seperated?
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/11/11 11:43 AM
What you can do is email her once a day, every day, at the same time. Make it a light email. Don't be too clingy. I got an idea. Maybe you could make it a joke, or funny quote a day email. You could link things you know she finds funny. At first, make it something that she just reads, and is only one line or two. After a couple of weeks, make it a longer joke, then a video, etc. You have the advantage over any OM because you already know what your WW likes and doesn't like.

You could possibly add a g'night text, which would turn into phone calls in a few weeks.

What would you do if you wanted to date this person(your WW)? How would you try to get someone to want to date you when they are showing no interest? You wouldn't want to act clingy, or needy. You wouldn't want to come on too strong. That's a start.

So, what have you identified as your WW's top ENs? There may be others out there who can help you figure out what you can do from afar. Don't give up yet.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/11/11 12:54 PM
That is an awesome idea. Thanks.
Posted By: Fishing Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/11/11 02:53 PM
marksaysay, I think Scotland's advice is a great idea. I am in plan A and find it diffucult at times but I am trying to keep sight of my goal. I wish you the strength to get throught this. I find that reading these postings is very helpful for me. Stay strong!
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/11/11 03:03 PM
Originally Posted by Scotland
What you can do is email her once a day, every day, at the same time. Make it a light email. Don't be too clingy. I got an idea. Maybe you could make it a joke, or funny quote a day email. You could link things you know she finds funny. At first, make it something that she just reads, and is only one line or two. After a couple of weeks, make it a longer joke, then a video, etc. You have the advantage over any OM because you already know what your WW likes and doesn't like.

Sent the first email this mowning. She responded but not to the quote. Had to do with our daughter. It may not have been the funniest quote of all-time but I'll be searching for some better one in the days to come. If you're curious, this was the quote:

Last night I lay in my bed looking up at the stars and I thought to myself, where the heck is the ceiling.


You could possibly add a g'night text, which would turn into phone calls in a few weeks.

What would you do if you wanted to date this person(your WW)? How would you try to get someone to want to date you when they are showing no interest? You wouldn't want to act clingy, or needy. You wouldn't want to come on too strong. That's a start.

So, what have you identified as your WW's top ENs? There may be others out there who can help you figure out what you can do from afar. Don't give up yet.

Her top 5 ENs i believe are affection, honesty and openness, conversation, recreational companionship, and family commitment. I would be grateful if I could get any suggestions on things I could do from a distance. I've already started one thing. The more suggestions I get the more options I will have.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/12/11 04:36 PM
Here's the funny one-liner sent to the wife today. I thought it was pretty funny:

(I hope this doesn't offend anyone as it is not my intent).
If a runaway is in a wheelchair, shouldn't you call them a roll-away?
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/13/11 05:17 PM
I ask that all that will, please pray for me. I'm having a very difficult time. There are so many things that I'm dealing with right now.

1. My marriage situation is obvious. Yes, I'm still in live with a woman who has been and still is committing adultery and seems to have walked away from God.

2. Our marital home (only in my name) is in foreclosure.

3. Im on the verge of losing my apartment, my car, my cell phone (the only way I have to talk to my family in Texas).

4. I'm struggling to pay the rest of my bills. Robbing from Peter to pay Paul.

5. I left the only church I've known in Indiana and I'm currently not talking to my 'big brother' and closest friend who pastor's that church.

6. Found out last night that I owe taxes instead of receiving a refund that would help catch up my bills and pay for the mediation in a few weeks.

7. A couple from my church whom I've known for about 8 years (in their 50s) just asked me to not come around much anymore because the kids (all adults) think I'm sleeping with their mom. They were my last safe haven and now I have no one.

Needless to say, all of this is just so hard. Please pray for me.
Posted By: Fishing Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/13/11 05:47 PM
MS, I will pray for you.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/14/11 04:49 PM
Scotland, it would seem that your suggestion may have had a different affect than we had hoped. I started on Monday sending thru emails funny jokes every morning. And for the last 2 days I have sent her a goodnight text varying in time to when I decided to lay down. Today, I even had some flowers delivered to her job but I don't know if they have been delivered yet.

Well, I called her stepmother who is just appalled at my wife's actions as well as at my FIL for being supportive of his daughters wrong. She tells me that he called her inquiring as to whether she'd talked to me and what it was about. He then goes on to say that he got word that I have been stalking and harassing his daughter. That I've been sittting outside her apartment and sending her goodnight texts when her light goes off. I just had to laugh because I haven't even been on that side of town. I've actually missed class this week and the school is a 1/4 mile from her apartments. It seems that any good I try to do will always get twisted to make me look bad. Wonder how she'll twist the flowers around and make me look like a stalker. It's funny but in a way it's really sad. My wife is committing adultery and I'm evil for still wanting to be with her and for fighting for my marriage. WOW is all I can say.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/15/11 01:11 AM
Mark, firstly, you need to remember that you need to Plan A with NO EXPECTATIONS. You aren't doing the funny emails or texts to get any reaction from her. It doesn't matter that she tells her dad that she thinks you are stalking her, you know you're not. Also, although you aren't supposed to think about it, there IS an effect.

Have you been sending the email at the exact same time everyday? Is there a time of day that is important to you two? See, my WH and I started dating at 10:32pm. My WH told me that he would think about me every day, at 1032am and 1032pm. If I were in Plan A, I would make sure that I sent the message at exactly 1032.

Now, after you have done this for a few weeks, one day, you would send it a little later, and you wouldn't even mention it's lateness. Then resume the regular schedule again.

You need to find some really funny things. Who is your WWs favourite comedian? Maybe you could find some thing about quotes from them. Even a comic strip that your WW liked when she was a child. Just throwing some ideas out there.

And, about the good night texts, you could just send it everyday at the same time as well. What are you writing in those texts? Nothing too heavy right? Act like this is not your wife but someone whom you would like to date you. Someone who has shown no interest in you. Catch is, you already know what she likes and doesn't like. And lay off of the gifts for the moment.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/15/11 02:38 AM
Scotty, thanks for the reply. I wasn't really thinking about it until it was mentioned by my wife's stepmom. I guess it just bothered me. As far as the jokes and emails, I haven't sent them at an exact time but maybe i can start. I think from now on, they I will schedule them to be sent at 8:19 because we were married on 8/19.

As far as the goodnight texts, they have been one word text saying simply "goodnight". What else might you suggest I put in there?

The flowers may have been a little much at this point but the card simply read "A little something to brighten up your office and your day - Mark". That was it.

Time may be running out but I feel good about going out this way, if I must. One thing she will never be able to tell a person is that I never loved her. If I can love her in spite of all that she's done, I'm either crazy or it's really love. Or maybe the funny feelings I in my gut that I still get is nothing but gas. LOL
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/15/11 02:46 AM
OHHHHHHH LOVE LOVE LOVE the 8:19 idea. That is GOLD.

See, I see nothing wrong with the g'night text. I wouldn't worry about it.

Even the card for the flowers wasn't that bad so it seems to be mostly WW fog babble.

Have you read everything on this site? Do you remember reading about the river and how everything you do during Plan B is like a pebble being thrown into the river? You can't see them, but they are under there. Then, eventually, there are enough pebbles that they break the surface. All you're doing is throwing pebbles. Plunk, Plunk.

Also, I remember being told that you are trying to win the war, not every fight. Stay strong, take care of yourself and Plan A your butt off. This way, you will look back and KNOW that you did everything you could and you are a better person because of it. Just remember that Plan A has both the carrot AND the stick. No doormats on my watch. grin
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/15/11 02:51 AM
I can't say that i've read everything on the site but I've read quite a bit of it. I know that most of what she says can be taken with a grain of salt, and after I thought about her statements I realized that if she was bothered by any of it, she could have replied by telling me to stop. But she didn't. So she must actually like them.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/15/11 02:56 AM
Quote
So must actually like them
Meh, doesn't matter if she does or doesn't. You are doing them because it's what you WANT to do. It's what you would continue to do in a marriage without an A. It's what you would do for your WIFE.

BTW, I just noticed your siggy. It still says you are in Plan B. If a newb came on here, they would be seriously confused as to why I would be giving you this advice while in Plan B, could you update it? smile
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/15/11 03:08 AM
Sure will. Thanks.

I tell you, it really makes me laugh just looking for the next joke to send to her. I'm cracking up at some of these now.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/15/11 03:12 AM
Quote
I tell you, it really makes me laugh just looking for the next joke to send to her. I'm cracking up at some of these now
Laughing is good for the soul. Good clean humour can do WONDERS for someone in plan A. laugh
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/21/11 01:32 AM
I was wondering about something today. My wife told me in a conversation we had a few days ago that she told our 7 yr old daughter that "mommy and daddy just can't be together right now."

Understand that I am currently in Plan A. The exposure took place months ago to family and friends, but the person who would be most impacted by the divorce, our daughter, has been told a half truth. We are about 2 1/2 weeks away from mediation, which neither of us can afford. I don't know if it is even possible to stop the divorce now that we have gone through many stages.

Would it be beneficial to me and my hopes of pulling our family back from the grave to tell our daughter now? The mandatory parenting class we had to go to stated that children should not be involved in adult affairs, but I believe that was for those who had conceded to the divorce and to go their seperate ways. I obviously want my family back together.

If I do tell my daughter, how do i do it?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/21/11 01:37 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Would it be beneficial to me and my hopes of pulling our family back from the grave to tell our daughter now? The mandatory parenting class we had to go to stated that children should not be involved in adult affairs, but I believe that was for those who had conceded to the divorce and to go their seperate ways. I obviously want my family back together.

It may be too late to save your marriage, but it is not too late to correct the lie that was told to your daughter. I agree that children should not be involved in affairs, but it is a little too late for that. Your wife is having an affair and your DD's life is being wrecked because of it. So she is already neck deep in involvement but is being tricked and lied to about the cause.

She has a right and a need to know the truth about her own life. It is not helpful to your wife, you or your daughter to whitewash the crime of your wife. It just causes your DD confusion and teaches her to be dishonest herself.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/21/11 01:38 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
If I do tell my daughter, how do i do it?

Tell her the whole truth. By yourself. And then encourage her to ask her mother any questions about her affair. I would be sure and explain WHY adultery is immoral. If you leave out the morality, she will conclude you are endorsing adultery.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/21/11 01:40 AM
Do you really think it's too late to save the marriage? If so, maybe it wouldn't be worth the backlash that this bomb would cause.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/21/11 01:44 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Do you really think it's too late to save the marriage? If so, maybe it wouldn't be worth the backlash that this bomb would cause.

There should have been a backlash when your wife lied to your daughter. If its ok for your wife to lie to her, its ok for you to tell her the truth. I don't think its too late to save your marriage. And more importantly I don't think its too late to do the right thing and tell your daughter the truth. That is your parental responsibility to tell her the truth.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/21/11 01:50 AM
Just how much do I tell. I'm really willing to do it since I get my daughter on Friday. How far do I go? Should I really encourage her to ask her mom questions?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/21/11 01:58 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Just how much do I tell. I'm really willing to do it since I get my daughter on Friday. How far do I go? Should I really encourage her to ask her mom questions?

I would tell her all about the affair and how it has led to the divorce. Let her know why adultery is immoral and tell her all about the OM. And yes, she should be encouraged to speak to her mother. She has a right to know why she ruined her family over a cheap thrill. Your WW has much to answer for.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/21/11 01:59 AM
p.s. and I don't care what some crapwit at the divorce court says. They don't give a rip about your child and are certainly not qualified to give you advice about child rearing.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/21/11 02:01 AM
Dr. Harley on telling the children:

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The same can be said about telling children about an affair. My experience with the positive outcomes of hundreds of families where an affair has been exposed to children has led me to encourage a betrayed spouse not to fear such exposure. In fact, to mislead children, giving other false explanations as to why their parents are not getting along, causes children to be very confused. When they finally discover the truth, it sets an example to children that dishonesty is sometimes acceptable, making them the judge of when that might occur.

An affair is an attack on children as well as the betrayed spouse. And it's true that children are deeply affected by this form of irresponsible behavior. But it's the act of infidelity that causes children to suffer, not the exposure of it. Facts point us toward solutions. Illusion leads us astray. That's true for children as well as adults.
here

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Q: So, you do suggest telling our 10 year old son? Is this more than he can handle? He never saw any real unhappiness as my husband and I had a very low conflict marriage. I have been protecting our son from this truth. He still has hope that his dad is going to come home.
___________________________________
A: As for your son, the truth will come out eventually, even if you get back together again. And your son won't be emotionally crippled if he hears the truth. It's lies and deception that cripple children. He should know that your husband is choosing his lover over his son's mother. It's a fact. He's willing to ruin a family unit all for what.

When I first started recommending openness about an affair, I wasn't sure what would happen. But I did it because I knew it was the right thing to do. Now I know that for most couples it marks the beginning of recovery.


Quote
The reason that children should know about an affair is that exposing it to the light of day (letting everyone know), helps give the unfaithful spouse a dose of reality. An affair thrives on illusion, and whatever a betrayed spouse can do to eliminate the illusion is justifiable. Mold doesn't grow well in sunlight.
here

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2. How honest should I be about the A? (they are 7 and under)

Tell your children as much as you can about their father's affair, and how it affects you. There are some counselors and lawyers that strongly disagree with me on this issue, but I have maintained that position for over 35 years without any evidence that children are hurt by it. They're hurt by the affair, not by accurate information regarding the affair. Just make sure that you don't combine accurate information with disrespectful judgments. For example, you can say that the OW has taken their father away from you, but you should not say that she is home-wrecker (or worse).
here

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My basic approach to life is that radical honesty is valuable on many different dimensions. It keeps us out of trouble, it helps others understand us, and it helps others avoid the same mistakes we have made. Letting your children know the details of your husband's affair would help them in all three areas.

The more your children know about your husband's affair, the more careful he will be to avoid them in the future.

The more your children know about his affair, the more they will understand what you are going through in your recovery (by the way, you are doing very well -- keep up the good work!).

Being radically honest about your husband's affair with your children would also help them avoid affairs themselves. How it happened and how could it have been prevented is a great object lesson for children. I learned that I was vulnerable for an affair when I learned about my grandfather's affairs. The extraordinary precautions I've taken were directly related to what I learned about him.

It's the approach I've always taken, and while it's difficult, especially for the WS, there's much more upside to it than downside.

Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/21/11 02:05 AM
I don't know if you're familiar with everything my wife has done but obviously there was the affair which was a one night stand. But since then, she has been calling, texting, emailing, all types of guys, many of which she has met through a dating website. She obviously has said that the affair and the subsequent activities have nothing to do with the divorce (fog babble).

The problem I've had all along is that her Christian mother says this is a part of seperation/divorce. Her father thinks that waiting to date and all of the other stuff is okay once you file for divorce. Other family members know, too, and don't say anything.

Maybe our daughter will be just the person to bring her back to her senses. Who knows. It's been 6+ months now and maybe she is just too far to come back.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/21/11 02:09 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
I don't know if you're familiar with everything my wife has done but obviously there was the affair which was a one night stand. But since then, she has been calling, texting, emailing, all types of guys, many of which she has met through a dating website. She obviously has said that the affair and the subsequent activities have nothing to do with the divorce (fog babble).

I would tell your daughter that your wife has this history and this is why you are getting divorced. Basically, she wants a divorce so she can chase men.

I think it is even more imperative that you tell your daughter because your wife's man chasing puts her at great risk. Your DD needs to know what your wife is doing and dangerous this lifestyle is. This way your DD will free to talk to you about any men she is introduced to. That is a great danger to your dd, you realize this, right?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/21/11 02:11 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Maybe our daughter will be just the person to bring her back to her senses. Who knows. It's been 6+ months now and maybe she is just too far to come back.

We have had waywards who were very shaken up by their children finding out the truth. It is no guarantee, though.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/21/11 02:20 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Maybe our daughter will be just the person to bring her back to her senses. Who knows. It's been 6+ months now and maybe she is just too far to come back.

We have had waywards who were very shaken up by their children finding out the truth. It is no guarantee, though.

I know there are no guarantees, but I guess anything is worth a try. But I know that my wife is knee deep in the fog now. She is also very stubborn as she has stated it on a number of occasions.

I do agree with you that our daughter needs to know the truth regardless of what happens. I'm just trying to figure out what type of language to use with a 7 yr old. Affair, adultery, sex, infidelity, etc.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/21/11 09:49 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
I was wondering about something today. My wife told me in a conversation we had a few days ago that she told our 7 yr old daughter that "mommy and daddy just can't be together right now."

Understand that I am currently in Plan A. The exposure took place months ago to family and friends, but the person who would be most impacted by the divorce, our daughter, has been told a half truth. We are about 2 1/2 weeks away from mediation, which neither of us can afford. I don't know if it is even possible to stop the divorce now that we have gone through many stages.

Would it be beneficial to me and my hopes of pulling our family back from the grave to tell our daughter now? The mandatory parenting class we had to go to stated that children should not be involved in adult affairs, but I believe that was for those who had conceded to the divorce and to go their seperate ways. I obviously want my family back together.

If I do tell my daughter, how do i do it?

I posted this same question on another forum and the overwhelming reply was a resounding no. There were some who were adamant about being truthful which is where I stand but many feel it would be more damaging to our daughter.
Posted By: Xau Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/21/11 09:58 PM
You absolutely tell her the truth, your wifes dishonestly will have confused her. Your telling her the truth helps her understand what is happening and allows you to be there when she wants to talk. Not telling causes a gap in her understanding of what is happening, it allows your wife to continue to lie to her and confuse her and removes from her the support you can give her if she asks questions. More importantly she knows she can trust you and you are there for her.

Sit with her , use the word affair, explain affair in simple terms and let her know it is wrong for married people to have affairs. Explain she is not the cause of the problem and you will always be there and love her. Let her know she can ask you any questions
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/21/11 10:15 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
I posted this same question on another forum and the overwhelming reply was a resounding no. There were some who were adamant about being truthful which is where I stand but many feel it would be more damaging to our daughter.

Sorry, but that is nonsense that they can't possibly back up. Are any of them licensed clinical psychologists? You are ultimately responsible for the welfare of your child so whose advice are you going to take? A licensed clinical psychologist who has specialized in adultery for 40 years or some crapwits on the internet with a keyboard and an opinion? just me, but I think I will put my money on Dr Harley!

Lying to children is POISON. It just teaches them dishonesty.

Originally Posted by Dr Willard Harley, licensed clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders
Zelmo (and others):

My position on many aspects of marital therapy has been admittedly controversial when first expressed. His Needs, Her Needs was ripped by many therapists in 1986 when it was first published because they didn't believe that men and women's emotional needs were different. Today, there are very few that believe that anymore.

My position on conflict management (Policy of Joint Agreement) was also roundly criticized by some feminists as giving away women's right to independence. Of course, most of these critics were not in favor of marriage in the first place. But today, the idea of finding mutually adventageous solutions to problems in marriage is main-stream.

And, my position on radical honesty and transparency in marriage, which was definitely not in the tool box of most counselors when I first brought it up, is now becoming much more accepted by therapists working in the trenches.

At first, whenever I came up with a new idea, I'd try it out on the couples I counseled. My goal was always to "do no harm" in my effort to help. I was very concerned about unintended consequences. But as I created methods that were logical outcomes of my basic theory, I found that these methods worked amazingly well every time they were implemented. That's why I can speak with such confidence today. I've personally witnessed thousands of successful outcomes when couples learn to meet each other's emotional needs, learn to make decisions with mutual enthusiastic agreement, and learn to be radically honest with each other.

The same can be said about telling children about an affair. My experience with the positive outcomes of hundreds of families where an affair has been exposed to children has led me to encourage a betrayed spouse not to fear such exposure. In fact, to mislead children, giving other false explanations as to why their parents are not getting along, causes children to be very confused. When they finally discover the truth, it sets an example to children that dishonesty is sometimes acceptable, making them the judge of when that might occur.

An affair is an attack on children as well as the betrayed spouse. And it's true that children are deeply affected by this form of irresponsible behavior. But it's the act of infidelity that causes children to suffer, not the exposure of it. Facts point us toward solutions. Illusion leads us astray. That's true for children as well as adults.


Best wishes,
Dr. Harley
here
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/21/11 10:19 PM
Lying to kids about their lives is the equivalent of rearranging the furniture in the home of a blind person. You just screw with that person's REALITY.

Anyone who thinks it is ok to lie to kids just to whitewash the bad behavior of one parent is an accessory to the crime and leaves that child vulnerable to the wayward parent. It is not the truth that harms little kids, but lies and adultery.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/22/11 04:14 AM
Thanks all for the feedback. I really think this helped me to make a decision.

I will say that on the other forum, they told me that if I bring up the infidelity, I must also bring up my porn issue because that's what made my wife feel the need to cheat.

My reply to that was that our marital problems are one thing. The infidelity is something totally different. Our family has not broken up because of the porn issue I had, it broke up because my wife has decided to commit adultery and she doesn't want to stop.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/22/11 05:00 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
My reply to that was that our marital problems are one thing. The infidelity is something totally different. Our family has not broken up because of the porn issue I had, it broke up because my wife has decided to commit adultery and she doesn't want to stop.

You are absolutely right! The point is not to confess your dirty laundry to a child, but to explain the truth about the breakup of her parent's marriage. Your friends sound somewhat foggy headed.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/22/11 09:20 PM
Well, I'll be picking up daughter for my 3+ days with her in just a few minutes. I plan on telling her the truth today. I've been thinking about this all day and I think I have gotten good advise on how to talk to her. Thanks everyone for all the help.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/22/11 10:34 PM
That is great, Mark. It really is the best thing for her.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/23/11 12:16 AM
Just had the talk. I told her about the affair. She asked what it was and I told her that it meant that mommy gave love to someone else when she was only supposed to give her love to daddy. I told her that mommy and daddy both still love her and that we both made mistakes. I told her that we just have to fix our mistakes. I asked if she had any questions, she said no.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/23/11 12:20 AM
Its such a hard thing to do. Especially trying to explain WHY adultery is immoral. At least now she will understand that the OM is her enemy if she ever meets him. You did the right thing.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/23/11 02:12 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Its such a hard thing to do. Especially trying to explain WHY adultery is immoral. At least now she will understand that the OM is her enemy if she ever meets him. You did the right thing.

I agree 100%.

My sons are 8 and 10. They were 6 and 9 when I exposed to them. They didn't completely get it at first, but they do now. They have come up with their own name for OW. They call her, "Evil Princess BEEP." I don't tell them anything but the truth about WH and OW. They have come to their own conclusions as to what OW has meant to their family.

It's important to teach your children the difference between right and wrong. Affairs or definitely on the side of wrong. Good job
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/23/11 02:54 AM
I will say that I have somewhat mixed feelings about having told our daughter. On one hand I have a sense of relief. On the other hand I feel somewhat regretful. Is this normal? I do believe that I did the right thing though...
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/23/11 02:56 AM
I dunno if it's normal. Why would you feel badly about telling your child the truth? Do you make it a habit of lying to her? I would guess not. Why lie to her now? Do you feel badly because you feel like you have hurt her with this info? Or is it your WW's feelings that you are worried about? Just curious. I would be able to help advise if it is normal or not.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/23/11 02:59 AM
I think the regret may come from wondering how WW would react to find out that daughter knows. I don't really feel bad about telling the truth.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/23/11 03:09 AM
That seems to be the norm for the BH's lately, but I don't understand why. What do you think is going to happen when she finds out? What could she possibly do that is worse than what she has already done?
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/23/11 03:20 AM
I guess there isn't much that could be worse than what she has already done. If I had time, I could compile a humongous list of things she has done and said to me during this process. Some of it has been listed and discussed as fog babble and some has not. It's funny. I was talking to our pastor yesterday and mentioned that she'd told me that I didn't know what love was. I rattled of a list of things and told him that I still wanted to be her husband in spite of it. He just said, "I wonder what her definition of love is?"
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/23/11 03:34 AM
I know, right. There are things that WSs do to BSs that others say they wouldn't forgive. Sometimes, we ourselves say that we won't forgive either, until it happens to us.

I was just trying to help you get over the thoughts of guilt for telling your DD. You did the right thing. Always be sure of that. Exposing to your DD was the right thing to do and not something that should ever be regretted.
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/23/11 04:36 AM
You feel guilty telling her because you told her something which explained why her life is changed and is tenuous. Life isn't sure and true anymore and that is a sad thing for the whole family.
You didn't make it true by telling her about it. You didn't destroy the safety and security of her life. You just explained it. That the reason it was a mess was infidelity. And, you are not the cause of the situation. You are just the person who respects your child as a person enough to be honest with her.
yk?
Posted By: Xau Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/23/11 11:51 AM
You told the truth, never doubt yourself this was and is the correct step to take, the next is if your wife contacts you , you need to be consistent with your words, adultery is adultery there is no other way to describe it.

On a side note, this forum unlike the other gives you a path to follow that is solid and consistent, we are here to help you not distract you with wave after wave of debate and indecision.

Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/24/11 01:58 AM
You know, as I sit and think about all that has gone on throughout this whole process, I've learned a lot. I've learned that I made a lot of mistakes throughout my marriage. I learned that my past really had a lot more impact on shaping me that I wanted to believe. I've learned that I'm much stronger than I thought I could ever imagined. I've learned so much.

I obviously have fought extremely hard to keep my family together. A lot of that is based on my biblical beliefs that God intended for marriage to be a lifelong commitment. An obvious reason is the fact that WE both knew nothing about how to sustain a marriage and my education alone can change that. I've fought because I know that my daughter will be negatively affected at some point and in some way, whether sooner or later. I've fought because my wife and I both come from families where divorce is the norm rather than the exception and I wanted to break the cycle. I've fought because I want to teach my daughter that marriage can be difficult but "for better and for worse, in sickness and in health, til death do you part" are not just something that you say but something that you mean.

It would seem that my fight may eventually come up short, but I can't say that I didn't and haven't tried all that I can. My name, Mark, does mean "mighty warrior". I don't know if at this point I have decided to throw in the towel, but I think I'm getting really close.

My motives have been pure, I believe, and my love for my wife still remains. I have had the best intentions throughout it all, but I guess in every battle, someone has to win and lose. It seems that I may be losing the family that I've always wanted as well as the wife I always wanted (although she is a shell of that person now). I believe that she will be the one who has lost when all is said and done. I feel I've already won. I've won a path to a better life ahead based on the lessons i've learned. Such hard lessons they have been, but in the end, they will serve to have been some necessary lessons as I create the future I know I'm capable of having.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/24/11 10:35 PM
Wow. While I have enjoyed today, it has been somewhat melancholy. I live 3 states away from my nearest family and I am literally flat broke ($12 in account with a week to go before payday). Daughter spent Easter with me today and I had no family to go and hang out with. I had no money to really take her out to eat. We spent most of the day after church just watching movies and playing some games at my apartment. She got bored and kept asking to go and play with friends but they were all with their families. She talked about wanting to watch tv shows she likes (I can't afford cable). She talked about not having an egg hunt which we used to do at our marital home.

I just wish things were just not this way. I later took her to the park and mcdonalds playland so she could play but I had to use part of that $12 for gas. I'm not depressed or anything but I do wish her mother would stop thinking about herself and wakeup.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/25/11 12:31 AM
Some of the best memories I had growing up were the ones that didn't cost a lot of money. Could you think of new traditions you can make with just the two of you? Picnic in the park? Build a puzzle. Brainstorm some things and think about things that your DD would like to do. What kind of memories do you want to leave her with when she is older? I remember a lot of things that my dad did with me growing up. I have even tried to pass down some. Make memories. Now is your only chance.


How are you relieving the stress that Plan A causes? Are you all prepared for Plan B?
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/25/11 12:48 AM
Originally Posted by Scotland
Some of the best memories I had growing up were the ones that didn't cost a lot of money. Could you think of new traditions you can make with just the two of you? Picnic in the park? Build a puzzle. Brainstorm some things and think about things that your DD would like to do. What kind of memories do you want to leave her with when she is older? I remember a lot of things that my dad did with me growing up. I have even tried to pass down some. Make memories. Now is your only chance.


How are you relieving the stress that Plan A causes? Are you all prepared for Plan B?

I guess we did really have an enjoyable time. Some of the frustration was probably more because I didn't get a chance to be with any family. When you're in a place where you don't have many friends and no family, it can get tough, especially around the holidays.

As far as the Plan A, I don't really know where I am now. I do believe that I didn't do a good Plan A when I did it initially. I do believe that I probably did move to Plan B too soon when I did. I also tend to believe that only an act of God can turn things around.

I found out that she felt "threatened" by the sudden emailed jokes that I had sent as well as the simple "Goodnight" texts and she went to the court to have our provisional agreement modified to indicate no texts or emails. She is, it seems, way too far gone for anything that I try to do to make any type of impact.

I think I may be in Plan C now, concede. I just don't know any more.
Posted By: AndyM Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/25/11 02:03 AM
marksaysay - I'm sorry to hear about your Easter. I can only offer you my support. There are better days ahead!
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/25/11 02:09 AM
Sorry. I didn't mean to make things more difficult for you with the texts and emails.

What have you been doing in regards to Plan A? What kind of contact do you have with your WW? How do the drop offs and pickups happen? Where do you have chances to Plan A?

There are so many people here rooting for you and standing behind you. Remember, you are trying to win the war, not ever battle.

Take care.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/25/11 02:23 AM
Originally Posted by Scotland
Sorry. I didn't mean to make things more difficult for you with the texts and emails.

What have you been doing in regards to Plan A? What kind of contact do you have with your WW? How do the drop offs and pickups happen? Where do you have chances to Plan A?

There are so many people here rooting for you and standing behind you. Remember, you are trying to win the war, not ever battle.

Take care.

Scotland, I don't blame you by any means. She is just too blinded by the "fog" and it is only amplified by her family pretty much supporting her actions. I actually thought it was a great idea. You're not the blame. I had the option of not doing it, but I did so that's on me.

I really don't have a lot of opportunity to Plan A. I pick daughter up from after school program on my the Friday's that I have the weekends with her and take her to school on Monday. On the Sundays, I just pick her up from family friend's house due to my premature implementation of Plan B. Other than that, there is no contact. I left the church we'd attended for the last 11 yrs, although it was not solely because she was there.

At this point, I think that the divorce is inevitable. I do know that you can still stop a divorce up until the time the judge signs the decree, so it's not over yet, but I don't think I should be holding my breathe. Both parties have to sign the document stating they want to end the divorce proceedings and right now we are one willing party short.

I messed up a lot of things at the beginning of this whole process due to my lack of education. I didn't find out about some of the resources such as MB or the books like SAA or HNHN until well into this process. If there is anything that can be done, God himself will have to do it. That may not be such a bad thing though, because HE is definitely able to do it. My only question would be is if it is will do intervene. It would seem that I just need to accept that it's over and move on.

I've fought long and hard, maybe not so well, but I've tried to do all I could. Unless there are some other suggestions, i don't see a need to do much else but pray for strength to accept whatever God sees fit to do.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/25/11 02:26 AM
So are you in No Contact with your WW then? Do you ever communicate directly with her?

Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/25/11 02:33 AM
Originally Posted by Scotland
So are you in No Contact with your WW then? Do you ever communicate directly with her?

It's kinda funny. When I implemented Plan B, she couldn't stand it but she finally accepted it. When I reverted back to plan A with the texts and emails, I didn't realize that she had misconstrued my intent and had gone to the court. Now she is the one who is implementing Plan B on me. She doesn't want to talk to me at all.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/25/11 02:42 AM
I think you should give DrH's radio show a call and ask for some advice on what you should do. I am way out of my league here.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/25/11 02:49 AM
It's a crazy situation, I know. DrH would probably scratch his head on this one, too. There, in my opinion, is nothing left to do. When you mess things up so bad by not being educated like I did at the very beginning by moving out, i guess i should expect nothing else but a huge mess.
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/25/11 04:07 AM
Stop. Step back. Regroup.
If you email the radio show and get Dr. Harley's input, I suspect you would find that it is not way over his head.
He is so good at getting the to root of what to do given even a convuluted seeming situation, it would help get you to clearly see the best steps to take for you and your family.
Give it a try.....and......emailing in and getting input via the radio show if free.
The coaching center costs money and is excellent but the radio show participation is free.
Did I say free?
Yes.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/25/11 03:12 PM
It's been about 4 months since my initial exposure to MIL, FIL, pastor, close family friend and her cousin. I feel like maybe the exposure was not deep and wide enough. Should my exposure have been farther and deeper? Would it even matter at this point?

MIL basically won't say anything because their relationship has never been good and now they are at least "friendly" at the expense of standing up for what's right.

FIL is a serial adulterer so he doesn't care.


Her cousin tried to talk with her, but wife won't accept her phone calls anymore. Pretty much the pastor and her cousin say that there is no use in doing anything because she is going to do what she wants any way. Maybe if more people knew, she would be more prone to really think about what she's doing or maybe she'll just get mad as he!!. Either way, I don't think i really care.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/25/11 08:39 PM
Unfortunately, my exposure seemed to do nothing as well. No one said anything to my WH. The only solace I have is knowing that they can't try to pass of their affair as a true romance. That is enough for me.

I want to advise you to go into a full on Plan B, but I am warring with he fact that a BH's best chance is Plan A and wooing his WW back to the marriage. That is why I suggested you write DrH and get on the radio show. I think he could offer you great advice.

Your sitch isn't hopeless. I just don't know what to advise you to do. If you could get DrH to suggest a plan for you, I would be able to help you in any way I could. Give it a thought, k.
Posted By: EverAfter2010 Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/25/11 11:32 PM
Did you expose the affair to the OMW or to OM family and OM? That is a huge part of exposure MSS.

Anyhow MSS, I'd give the radio show a call and get Dr. H's take on this, as it is really needed at this point imho.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/25/11 11:32 PM
Originally Posted by Scotland
Your sitch isn't hopeless. I just don't know what to advise you to do. If you could get DrH to suggest a plan for you, I would be able to help you in any way I could. Give it a thought, k.

Forgive me if it sounds as though I've given up, but what I guess I'm tired of doing is making things worse. I did everything all wrong at the beginning, and before I learned about sites and books like HSHN, I continued to do things that go against the principles taught here, thus adding fuel to the flame.

I've come to realize that no matter what I do, if God doesn't want us back together, we will not be together. If he does, we will. I've come to realize that, while I want to so bad, I don't ultimately have total control of the situation and I never did.

Understand also that I know my situation is not hopeless, because God is able to do anything. I've spent the last 6 months trying to do things that would turn my marriage around, none of them did anything. At this point, it's time that I stop doing anything and let God bring to pass what he wants. I'm not giving up. I'm just giving God the control I've tried to take away from him.

I don't know what the future holds, but I know that God knows all about my troubles, the marriage, my finances, the loneliness, the hurt, and all else in between. What I do know is that whatever he decides to do is ultimately what he feels is best for me. It's in God's hands now, where it should have been all along.

Thanks for all the help. Now it's just time that I step aside and accept whatever God's will is for my marriage, my family and my life. God Bless.
Posted By: MichaelJan Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/26/11 12:24 AM
marksaysay writes,

Quote
I've come to realize that no matter what I do, if God doesn't want us back together, we will not be together. If he does, we will. I've come to realize that, while I want to so bad, I don't ultimately have total control of the situation and I never did.

Understand also that I know my situation is not hopeless, because God is able to do anything. I've spent the last 6 months trying to do things that would turn my marriage around, none of them did anything. At this point, it's time that I stop doing anything and let God bring to pass what he wants. I'm not giving up. I'm just giving God the control I've tried to take away from him.

I don't know what the future holds, but I know that God knows all about my troubles, the marriage, my finances, the loneliness, the hurt, and all else in between. What I do know is that whatever he decides to do is ultimately what he feels is best for me. It's in God's hands now, where it should have been all along.

Thanks for all the help. Now it's just time that I step aside and accept whatever God's will is for my marriage, my family and my life. God Bless.

I have not read all of your thread, but the passages above suggest to me that your response is admirable and inspirational. It's in the spirit of St. Francis' Serenity prayer. You're not blaming others. You're not embittered or revengeful. You're accepting God's will. And you're growing in holiness.

Keep up your spirits. God has a great plan for you. It's just that the interim is going to stink for a while!

-----------------------------------------------
Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again)
Her: WW, 33
Never lived together
Married 6 years; together 10 years
2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8)
Her EA: Fall '08
She moves out of our home: 10/16/09
Informally separated
D-day: 01/22/10
D-day #2: 06/28/10
Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family
In Plan B since 11/15/10
Her region is a 50/50 custody area
OM stopped working with her 08/10
Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10
Wife files for D: 02/10/11
Still hopeful

Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/26/11 12:26 AM
I have often wondered if my finding this place was an answer to a prayer. That, perhaps, I was led here to get the help contained within these pages. I would be wasting that answer to a prayer if I didn't use the knowledge here. Even if it is to help others get through this as well. Of course, it is still your choice, and letting go could also benefit you.

Besides, even if your marriage doesn't survive, the teachings contained in this site can help you recover from that. And, one day, if you want a new marriage, you can have one better than you could have ever imagined.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/27/11 10:15 PM
Had a bit of a breakthrough today. No, my wife didn't call and ask to reconcile. This breakthrough is more personal. After all these months of dealing with the adultery of my wife, it was pointed out to me that, although i did not engage in the outward act, I did inwardly commit adultery based on Matthew 5:27,28.

I've known porn was wrong and God has helped me tremendously in dealing with this issue. But today, I saw it for what it actually was, adultery in the eyes of God. I read that passage and began to study it more indepth and my hands began to shake uncontrollably with the conviction of what I had just learned.

It may not be enough to save my marriage or change my situation in other ways, but it did wonders for me and my relationship with God. This was one of those "WOW" moments.

I just thought I would share this with all. God Bless.
Posted By: markos Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/28/11 01:24 AM
Mark, I don't know who pointed that out to you, but you should probably go thank them.

It's a lot easier to let go of resentments when we confess and acknowledge our own failings.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/28/11 01:50 AM
Originally Posted by markos
Mark, I don't know who pointed that out to you, but you should probably go thank them.

It's a lot easier to let go of resentments when we confess and acknowledge our own failings.

I already have. This was by far the biggest breakthrough for me since this whole episode began. I had originally simply classified it as "lust" because there was no physical adultery, but it never quite registered with me the fact that God is not as concerned about the outward as he is the inward. I still can't stop saying "WOW".

The person who brought this to my attention even suggested that I share it with my WW but I'm not so sure that would be the best thing to do. I will pray about it and follow the prompting of the Holy Spirit to lead me in what I should do. I tell you, the changes that have come about in me during this whole process are great considering what all I've gone through. I could talk up a couple of pages trying to list them all but in spite of them, I know that God has a plan.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/28/11 01:35 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Had a bit of a breakthrough today. No, my wife didn't call and ask to reconcile. This breakthrough is more personal. After all these months of dealing with the adultery of my wife, it was pointed out to me that, although i did not engage in the outward act, I did inwardly commit adultery based on Matthew 5:27,28.

I've known porn was wrong and God has helped me tremendously in dealing with this issue. But today, I saw it for what it actually was, adultery in the eyes of God. I read that passage and began to study it more indepth and my hands began to shake uncontrollably with the conviction of what I had just learned.

It may not be enough to save my marriage or change my situation in other ways, but it did wonders for me and my relationship with God. This was one of those "WOW" moments.

I just thought I would share this with all. God Bless.

I posted this same thing at another forum and pretty got beat up over. Everyone claims that I'm trying to justify my wife's behavior. They really missed the point.

This post has nothing to do with my wife's infidelity. It had nothing to do with my desire for reconciliation. It had everything to do with my relationship with MY God. Regardless of what anyone else thinks, I feel so much better having realized this and repented of these acts.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/28/11 01:50 PM
Self reflection is a good thing for self growth.

I went through the same things myself. It is the only way that we can become better people. And whether our current marriages end or not, we need to become better people.

Your revelation helped me in a way too. My WH viewed porn as well, before he had an A. This made me think about who he really was and that he was already sliding down this slippery slope long ago. He will need to do a lot of changing for me to even consider him a suitable man to be married to any longer. I thank you.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/28/11 02:27 PM
Scotland, this was by far the most freeing discovery of all including the knowledge about relationships and marriage that I've gained. I feel FREE.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/28/11 03:23 PM
And that is the best part of discovering and releasing this type of thing. Now, you need to make sure that you never repeat this mistake again. Remember what you feel like today.

So, have you given any thought into emailing MrsH? I would love to get you a plan and more focused on which direction you could take.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/28/11 04:42 PM
Originally Posted by Scotland
So, have you given any thought into emailing MrsH? I would love to get you a plan and more focused on which direction you could take.

To answer your question honestly, NO. I've done a lot throughout this ordeal. I am forever thankful for the plethora of information i've gained from this site, from the books, from all the input from others, etc. I've fought long and hard and now I'm at a place where I am totally depending on God to do whatever he wants to do.

I've come to realize that no matter what I do, if it is not what God wants, it won't mean anything anyway. I'm quite sure that the Harley's can give some type of advise, but that's all i've been doing throughout all of this, looking for advise from all other sources. Some of what I've learned has helped and some has not. What I do kow is that God knows best. He knows that my intentions for fighting for my family have been pure. If it is his will, then we will be together. If it is not, then we won't.

The lessons i've learned will come to be invaluable to me as I resume a relationship with my wife or a future love interest, so all is not for naught.

BUT I am now at the point where i will be okay with whatever HE decides to do.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/29/11 12:35 AM
At the beginning of this thread, you mentioned that you had sent your WW a Plan B letter by email. And you also mentioned that you would get emails about your daughter, this isn't going to be okay in Plan B.

So, have you decided to go into Plan B and let God lead the way? If that is your decision, I will help you get into Plan B and help you get as dark as possible to gain the advantages Plan B has to offer.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/29/11 01:05 AM
Sure. Let me know what else I can do.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/29/11 01:11 AM
Well, if you are ready to enter a full blown Plan B, the first thing you will need is an IM. You should not be getting emails from her directly. Do you have everything worked out for visitations, etc? You will need to go NC with your WW to be in a true Plan B. You should re-write a PLan B letter and try to keep it as close to the one in SAA as possible.

It is going against everything in me, to advise you to go into a Plan B, but I just can't see how you can Plan A your WW when you have NO contact whatsoever. If you saw any way for you to Plan A, I would encourage you to do so. With no chances to PLan A, I would suggest a true Plan B.

If you decide to Plan B, you need to do it 100%. Are you ready for that?
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/29/11 01:18 AM
You know, I'm thinking that I probably should but one thing that has come out of this situation is a desire to completely trust God. In the last few days, this has been so beneficial in more ways than you can imagine. I say that because many of the things I've done over the course of these last few months have been without consulting with Him.

What I'm gonna do tonight is spend some time in prayer seeking direction. So I say yes, but I can't be for sure at this point and time. I will hopefully have an answer soon for you.

I want to thank you for all of the help, assistance, and encouragement you have given. I really appreciate it more than you would believe.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/29/11 01:30 AM
When you have made your decision, you know where we will be. Take care.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 04/30/11 07:34 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Had a bit of a breakthrough today. No, my wife didn't call and ask to reconcile. This breakthrough is more personal. After all these months of dealing with the adultery of my wife, it was pointed out to me that, although i did not engage in the outward act, I did inwardly commit adultery based on Matthew 5:27,28.

I've known porn was wrong and God has helped me tremendously in dealing with this issue. But today, I saw it for what it actually was, adultery in the eyes of God. I read that passage and began to study it more indepth and my hands began to shake uncontrollably with the conviction of what I had just learned.

It may not be enough to save my marriage or change my situation in other ways, but it did wonders for me and my relationship with God. This was one of those "WOW" moments.

I just thought I would share this with all. God Bless.

Nothing new to report relating to my marriage but I just wanted to update based on my post from a few days ago. It's still quite hard to believe why it had to take my marriage crumbling for me to understand this but God had his reasons.

Not only have I completely cut out porn in the form of movies and videos but I've also eliminated erotic literature. I used it to replace the visual stimulation from the movies but it was still as wrong because it caused mental imagery that was against God and his standards.

I really can't believe how well I have been doing since this revelation in other ways as well. I have truly grown as a result of this whole ordeal and I will be forever grateful for the experience regardless how my marriage turns out.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 05/01/11 02:05 PM
Well, today is my day to have daughter for a few hours. I usually pick her up from church. Wife texted this morning saying she wasn't feeling well and that she wouldn't be going to church. She asked if I would pick up daughter from her apartment. I told her that I would and asked if there was anything I could bring her to help. She said no thank you but thanked me for being willing to accomodate her request. I simply said "no problem...get well". She replied "thank you".

This was really the first fairly pleasant exchange we've had in a long time although it wasn't much. At least she knows I still care.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 05/01/11 10:01 PM
Had another encounter with WW today. Daughter had a performance at school today and since I had her, we went and wife showed up about 15 minutes before the start. DD sat in between the two of us and then moved to the row in front of us with her friend. Wife and I remained separated by the vacant seat until the performances started and then I scooted over to make some comments about the dances and dancers. We had a few laughs and there was some pleasant exchanges between us. It really felt different.

During DD's performance, we laughed and talked about how good she was doing and how she loves to do things like that. After DD's performance, I left. Maybe I should have stayed, but oh well.

On another note, I was moved to return to the church I'd left a month or so ago and I revealed to the congregation my battle with pornography and the liberating experience I had earlier during the week. Oh man, it felt good to be completely open about my struggle. The public confession made me feel as though I no longer have to hide my issue. It felt sooooo good.
Posted By: Powerbane Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 05/01/11 10:29 PM
Mark - I'm proud of you man!

Keep being the man God always intended you to be. You are setting the example for all.

BTW - you know you're not really in Plan B - right?

Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 05/01/11 11:05 PM
Powerbane, Mark thought he would be in Plan B when he started this thread but some wise people told him he should Plan A. Looked at his siggy.

Mark, those were some great Plan A moments. Remember, that until you decide to go through with a Plan B, you need to do this whenever you can and take advantage of every opportunity.

hurray
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/01/11 11:06 PM
Originally Posted by Powerbane
Mark - I'm proud of you man!

Keep being the man God always intended you to be. You are setting the example for all.

Thanks, Powerbane. I'm trying with the help of God to hold up my end of the bargain, so to speak. I've come to te realization that if I keep my eyes on him, everything will work out according to his plan. I've got many difficulties that lay in front of me in the next week but God is faithful.

You know, I comtemplated not revealing it to everyone but I couldn't sit and not say something. I wasn't worried about what people thought of me or anything. One thing I do know is that confession is good for the soul.


BTW - you know you're not really in Plan B - right?

Yeah, I know. Someone suggested to me that I should continue with Plan A since it had only been about 5 months and since I was really doing it all wrong due to my lack of understanding. I just realized that I could change it. Thanks.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/02/11 04:40 PM
My pastor told me today that he'd gotten a few questions from people regarding my public confession of my pornography problem at church yesterday. He said that one person asked if it was child pornography (and no, it was not). One person asked if he'd known about my struggle. He then tells me that had he known I was going to dothat, he would've advised me not to. He said that some things should not be confessed publicly.

I told him that I did not feel bad about my public confession and that it really didn't bother me that some had questions. I told him that I was aware that there would be some negative reactions to it but isn't that the case with anything you try to do right? I then told him that if people had any further questions, just give them my number as I would be more than happy to discuss it with them.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/03/11 11:47 AM
Well, tomorrow is our scheduled mediation session. I can't even afford the hour drive to the site, much less the cost of the session but I will show up anyway and tell them that. There are many things still that need to be determined and I would not let WW have everything she wanted so her we are.

I attempted to speak with her before things got to that point but she couldn't do it in a civil manner. She has tried since but with the fact that she filed a bogus restraining order on me back in December (it was later dropped), I didn't want to put myself in any bad situation. We'll just see what happens.

Also, since my revelation about my porn and my public confession, I've still sensed that something was still missing and I realized that I have not spoke to my WW about it and asked for her forgiveness since the offense was committed against her. I think I will atleast attempt to do so this evening, if she will accept my call.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/04/11 01:31 AM
Just got off of the phone with WW. I told her that based on scripture (Matthew 5:23,24), it was my responsibility to confess my faults to the one I'd wronged. I basically told her that I failed to meet Christ's standard of loving a wife as I should because I often put self before my spouse. I told her that I realized that all the years of porn was more than just "lust" but adultery in the eyes of God. I asked for her forgiveness. She said she forgave me and the conversation was ended.

I want you all to understand that I am not taking away anything that my wife has done wrong. I'm not trying to make excuses for her actions or admit that I "caused" her to make the choices she made. I just wanted to accept full responsibility for my faults and confess them to her.

She may never confess to me the ways she wronged me. She may never realize that I was not the only culprit in our marital breakdown. She may never admit to doing anything wrong, but isn't this journey about personal growth? I've grown tremendously throughout this and have come to really appreciate it even though it has been difficult.

Yes, there have been countless books and articles that have added to my understanding of my errors. There have been countless people who have helped me. But I owe most of what I've learned to God and His word. He has taught me so much.

So tomorrow is our mediation session and our final hearing has been set for June 2nd pending the mediation results. It has been a long haul but I'm finally to a place where I know that His will is what's best for me.

God bless all.....
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/04/11 03:51 PM
Well, I don't know what God is doing, but HE is doing something. I and wife both showed up for mediation today with the knowledge that we'd be billed for our session if we couldn't pay. Upon getting there, we were told that we had to pay $300 upfront before anything could be started. We were both then given 60 days to come up with the money. This is the 3rd time in our divorce process where things have hit a snag that really neither of us had control over.

We were supposed to be going to final hearing that was reset for June 2nd pending mediation but now that's not gonna happen. I don't know but my thoughts based on everything that has happened is that our divorce may not be in His will. I just don't know anymore.

But one thing I do know is that God is in control.

Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/05/11 01:28 PM
So my wife calls this morning confirming my suspicions about why she was so livid that the mediation didn't happen yesterday. She continued with the wayward spouse talk saying that our 10 year marriage was a mistake because she never loved me. She told me that it doesn't matter how long the divorce takes because the divorce will happen. She then tells me that she has a new man in her life and that she likes him. Surprise. Surprise.

I've always knew that was the case but had no way to confirm it since we are separated, but it did hurt to hear her actually say it. I think what hurt the most is when I asked her if she really thought this was what God wanted, she replied, "I don't care what God wants, this is about me." I'm afraid that those will be words she we regret letting slip from her lips.

Posted By: Fishing Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/05/11 03:08 PM
Mark, sorry to WW confirmed your suspicions but now you know for sure. I'm not in much of a position to give any advice but God has a plan even if we don't know what it is. Stay strong!
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/05/11 06:26 PM
Mrak, were you able to do anything Plan Aish? Remember, there is a carrot and a stick of Plan A, and until you are in Plan B, you should Plan A whenever possible.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/05/11 06:39 PM
I just agreed with her when she started to bring up her "validation" like you were selfish and you are a lied and all the other stuff. I didn't say anything negative or anything. I also stayed calm and didnt let her know that her statement bothered me.

It was tough not to try and debate with her. I asked if she would listen to what I had to say and she cut me off. I was tempted to just hang up during her rant but didn't. She also told me that she would block me from being able to call her phone so that's that.

I told our pastor about her statements specifically about her having a boyfriend and not caring about God. He said that she'd told him just 2 weeks ago in an hour long conversation that she was getting her self together (she's been missing a lot of church which is not normal for her) and that she was sorry about the infidelity and all the other stuff she'd done.

This bothered him obviously to hear her make a statement regarding God like that and to know that she basically lies to his face. He said he's going to address it because someone who is in this mindset, especially as it relates to God, needs to know what lies ahead of them.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/05/11 10:12 PM
Do you guys think it would do any good to expose again since my wife pretty much told me she has a boyfriend this morning? My last exposure was pretty much just about her dating website profile and texting/talking to other men. This time I have some pretty "credible" proof.

In our conversation this morning, she told me if we were to ever get back together, she would cheat on me and make my life a living hell. She also told me after she revealed the "new man" in her life that she would block my number so that I couldn't call her. She later sent me a text saying, "Youre number has officially been BLOCKED...LMAO".

Man, she is thick in the fog....
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/06/11 01:17 AM
She is not only thick in the fog, she is extremely abusive. The time for a true Plan B is long since past. Please, will you consider one? Get an IM. Set the letter written and approved on here. Get yourself locked up tight. Protect yourself and your child. This needs to end.

As far as re-exposing, do you know who OM is? Without that, you may not be able to expose anything. Let the vets weigh in.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/06/11 02:01 AM
Originally Posted by Scotland
She is not only thick in the fog, she is extremely abusive. The time for a true Plan B is long since past. Please, will you consider one? Get an IM. Set the letter written and approved on here. Get yourself locked up tight. Protect yourself and your child. This needs to end.

As far as re-exposing, do you know who OM is? Without that, you may not be able to expose anything. Let the vets weigh in.

Do you mean verbally abusive? Is this normally the way they are? Also, when you say protect DD, how can I? She has custodial custody based on the provisional hearing.
Posted By: My4Loves Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/06/11 02:14 AM
Her behavior is extrememly dangerous for your health. Go into a dark Plan B as soon as possible. Maybe get some friends and family around your a couple weeks so you can withdraw from her and take care of you.

My WH is not in a good place either, and I finally had enough of his mouth. The things he said to me. I refuse to be a punching bag anymore. I have four kids that I am standing up for and proving to them I am worth more than this.

Stand up for your health. You will thank yourself. Let her experience life without you. Let her have OM and make him fulfill all her EN's.

Protect your daughter by collecting the text messages and you may have to drag your pastor into court. You need to see a lawyer and see about an emergency hearing. Your child is learning how to be very cruel to men. You have to combat this by making yourself righteous, making yourself healthy, and teaching her the difference between right and wrong. Your child needs you to stand up for her and fight bloody knuckles for her. You have one life with this child. You have one moment in time with her. Make that moment in time the best life possible.

Love yourself more. Love yourself more.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/06/11 02:26 AM
Originally Posted by itistoughlove
Her behavior is extrememly dangerous for your health. Go into a dark Plan B as soon as possible. Maybe get some friends and family around your a couple weeks so you can withdraw from her and take care of you.

Love yourself more. Love yourself more.

I guess I'm trying to figure out how it's dangerous for my health. Please elaborate.

Also, I don't have any family here. My closest relatives are 4 states away. I don't really have many friends either since I don't have the high school classmates to cling to nor do I want to be involved with the drinking/clubbing/smoking weed type people that are my age around here (I'm African American and an Ordained Baptist Minister).

The facts are this situation has caused a lot of major financial problems for me. I'm praying that God will help me pay my rent tomorrow. I'm driving around on expired tags. I'm expecting a disconnect notice any day for electric. Car payment is behind, etc, etc. It's mostly due to my job and the 3 unpaid weeks I've had since this has started (I work at a school and there were 2 wks for xmas break and spring break). To find another job right now would do more harm than good because I would then have to wait for the first paycheck. A second job means I would see my daughter less than I see her now. It's a tough situation.

Posted By: My4Loves Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/06/11 02:58 AM
Mark,

You cannot control your life at the moment without a plan. It will fall apart because your WW has thrown your life into chaos. The only thing you have until your death is your health. It is the only thing that will carry you and your family. Once your health is gone, what do you have left? You need to be spiritually, emotionally, physically, and mentally present in order to function.

Your life will remain in chaos as long as the wayward has a say in the situation. You have to take a step back and realize you can lose everything today with your wayward abusing your spirit, or you can lose everything today with peace.

It is your decision on the path you take. Starting over is difficult. The first thing I suggest is a VERY DARK PLAN B. Get your sanity out of her mess, and clear your health so you can be healthy.

Evaluate what your priorities are and where you want to go. You will still be losing everything but at least you will have a plan. With a plan you can recover and start fresh.

Your wayward must know what life it like without you. Until she realizes all that she is about to lose, you have to let her go.

You can never recover as long as her affair is happening.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/06/11 03:04 AM
I'm not so sure going dark is possible. We still go to the same church. I left for a while but recently came back and I felt that it was God's desire that I go back. She comes very sporadically but she does come.

Also, would exposure work based on the fact that the only proof I have is WW's word that there is someone?
Posted By: My4Loves Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/06/11 03:08 AM
You are following the plan correct? If you are unwilling to go into Plan B, then are you still going to keep Plan A in action?

If yes, then just keep in mind the longer Plan A and the affair does not end, you have a good chance of losing all remaining LB's for your WW.

Read SAA again, and try and detail your plan. Write your plan out on what you are and are not willing to do.

If you will not Plan B, then your only option now is PLAN A and try to expose the new guy. Just be fully prepared for the exhaustion that comes from an extended Plan A.

Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/06/11 03:23 AM
Most of what she says doesn't really bother me. Her telling me about the guy today wasn't much of a surprise because I suspected it. What bothered me most was to hear her emphatically say, "I don't care what God wants....". That is a very dangerous statement to make for anyone, and even more so for my Christian WW. I literally worried for her because not only did i hear it, but He heard it, too.

As a minister, I know, based on countless scriptures, the reality of one who essentially has turned their back on God and in no way will it be pretty. Right now, I would love to be there to help her up when it happens, and it will happen, but I don't know if I will be.

And yes, I am following the plan. I know it says 6 months but I got a late start because I did tons of stuff wrong because of a lack of knowledge and not having read the book until late in the game, so to speak..
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/06/11 11:59 AM
Mark, I am going to disagree that you are following an MB plan. See, you say that you are in Plan A, which would be correct IF YOU WERE REALLY IN PLAN A. You can't be in Plan A when your WW only contacts you to emotionally abuse you. That was what she was doing by telling you that she has a BF. And you WERE effected. Look at what happened to your focus. Last week, you kept saying that you weren't going to do anything and let God take over. As I stated last week, could it not be that God sent you the answer to your prayer by helping you find THIS place?

Tough gave you some very good POVs and answers to your questions. I think that you should get into Plan B. You CAN do it without anyone close by. My IM is actually someone I have never even met IRL(She is a poster). Everything is done through email. There shouldn't be much interaction between you and your WW once you are in Plan B. The title of this thread states that you were in Plan B. Let us help you get into a true Plan B and be able to focus on healing yourself and taking care of your DD.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/06/11 12:21 PM
How can I really do it when we go to the same church?
Posted By: My4Loves Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/06/11 02:57 PM
Mark - Go within yourself to find what you need. Your brain and your heart are not meeting at the moment. Take your brain's advice today, and let the heart follow.

Maybe your pastor can visit with you at a different location. Just because you do not go to the building doesn't mean the church is gone. A church isn't a building; it is the people inside the building. They are Godly people, and most likely are willing to work with you to save your marriage.

Remember your WW threw your life into chaos with this. You will go down with her because you're "One body". This is why infidelity is hated by God. It destroys everything in its path.

You cannot get rid of the chaos until you sever the WW. You are one flesh together, but in Plan B you separate into two fleshes. It has to be that way for you to regain your health.

Seek out your church for solutions. Maybe your pastor can have a sermon with you on different days, or you attend the church at different times. Seek out the solutions, and I know you will come up with one that works.

You have the power of choice. Use that power to make your life and your child's life happy. Everyday you stay in this state you child will learn a lesson. What lesson do you want to be teaching?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/06/11 03:05 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
I'm not so sure going dark is possible. We still go to the same church. I left for a while but recently came back and I felt that it was God's desire that I go back. She comes very sporadically but she does come.

You can find God at most churches. There is no reason you can't find another church in order to go into Plan B. If you get to the point where you need to go into Plan B, you should avoid her at all costs.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/07/11 01:40 AM
Wife just called furious that I told daughter about her boyfriend. I just told her that mommy doesn't want to be with daddy because she has a boyfriend and that you can't be married and have a boyfriend. Was that wrong? It was the truth.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/07/11 02:43 AM
Of course it wasn't wrong for you to tell her.

Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/07/11 03:00 AM
I've figured that it may be good to do an exposure bomb and then possibly go to a dark plan b. I'll no more tomorrow about what I should do because my pastor is going to talk to her tomorrow and let her know that God is not pleased with the fact that she has said "she doesn't care about what he wants" and that she has lied to him (pastor) about what she's been doing. She told him two weeks ago that it wasn't about being with someone else. He says that he's going to point out to her the fate of those who essentially turn their backs on God.

I'm not too confident that anything will come of that but I am somewhat optimistic that it might. Wife really said some harsh things tonight in addition to saying "why am I trying to hurt our DD?" I didn't comment but I was thinking what's more hurtful to our DD, being raised by her mother and father, or only getting to see her dad 6-10 days a month. Does it hurt our DD to have a mother only trying to do what's "best" for her or doing what's best for DD?

Anyone got a good letter to blast to family on FB? I'm looking to tell her family because no one knows. I can't do so with OM since I don't know who he is but i'll do what I can.



Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/09/11 12:44 AM
Okay, I'm ready for plan B. Is there anyone here willing to be my IM? Could you all explain to me how it works? What about emergencies while WW has daughter?
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/09/11 01:44 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
I'm not so sure going dark is possible. We still go to the same church. I left for a while but recently came back and I felt that it was God's desire that I go back. She comes very sporadically but she does come.

Also, would exposure work based on the fact that the only proof I have is WW's word that there is someone?

Mark,

Can I talk to you one ordained man to another? I am curious as to where your eyes are focused right now brother. Are your eyes on Christ? I have been reading through your thread and trying to catch up, and I'm almost there. A few things have stood out to me though in regards to some of the things you have said... (I apologize to others who may not want to read a thread that is dealing with explicitly Christian content)

Historically us protestants have determined a true church by three marks... 1. The right preaching of the Word, 2. The right administration of the sacraments and 3. Church discipline...

Why would God call you back to a Church that is not practicing proper discipline?
Bad orthopraxy stems from bad orthodoxy. In simple terms, wrong practice stems from wrong belief. Put another way, they don't discipline sin because they are not convicted by it.

It is a dangerous place to be when your spiritual leaders don't hold you accountable.

While we cannot make a determine whether or not a person is truly saved, we can examine the fruit of their actions. Does your wife show the fruits of salvation? Does she show that she is trusting and resting in Christ? I think you know the answer to this.

Remember this passage?

Tit 3:10-11 As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, (11) knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.


As for you brother, where are your priorities? It sounds like you are back in school and not active ministry? Is that correct, or are you teaching? I took a little over a year off to arrange things and took a secular job until I could effectively minister. God holds ministers more accountable than sheep, and our households need to be in order. We both probably know that in evangelicalism, this is the dirty little secret of ministers...

Additionally, have you asked your deacons for help in the financial area? I am not Baptist, so i am not sure of the structure, but if your wife is a member and is in violation of her vows, then she needs to be brought before the leaders in the church. One of the tasks is to guard the flock (your daughter too), not just from the Devil, but from divisive people...

Jud 1:17 But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jud 1:18 They said to you, "In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions."
Jud 1:19 It is these who cause divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit.

Some things to think about... These divisive people are rarely content to not recruit. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. It is spiritually and emotionally dangerous to allow your WW to be involved with your daughter and the church.

Just a few thoughts...
CV
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/09/11 02:10 AM
Thanks for the words,CV. I am ordained in the Baptist church and was active in several ministries at my old church,i.e. teaching, preaching and music.

Your statements about the church are very difficult because I've learned recently that not many that I've talked to, and i've talked to several as to whether or not Matthew 18:15-17 is applicable today, but they say yes, but not many are willing to do so. Not one said they would do it. Knowing this has made it very difficult to find a place where I'm comfortable.

I've been here where I live about 11 years and know lots about most of the churches and there are many that teach things that aren't sound doctrinally which is why it's been tough for me to find a new place.

As for my wife, the answer is no. She is not exhibiting anything that even remotely resembles Christ and that has been the hardest thing to come to grips with. I've always thought she was believer but it seems like she may have just been a pretender.

I haven't talked to the deacons about my financial situation but the pastor knows everything. He has tried to help where he could.

I am in an awfully terrible predicament and I'm praying that God would somehow intervene.

PS - I still need an IM as the letter is ready. I just need to include how she can contact me.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/09/11 04:48 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Thanks for the words,CV. I am ordained in the Baptist church and was active in several ministries at my old church,i.e. teaching, preaching and music.

Your statements about the church are very difficult because I've learned recently that not many that I've talked to, and i've talked to several as to whether or not Matthew 18:15-17 is applicable today, but they say yes, but not many are willing to do so. Not one said they would do it. Knowing this has made it very difficult to find a place where I'm comfortable.


I can understand that. The truth is, Matthew 18 is *first* about restoring an erring brother or sister, but 2nd about church discipline. How can it not be applicable today? Any conservative Christian group should apply Jesus' words. But I am guessing we'd agree on that. I see it directly tied (in verse 17 to Matthew 16 and church authority. Church discipline used rightly *is* about love. The purpose is not just to protect as i said earlier, but to restore the sinning party as well. I think we probably agree on that as well. I can understand another church being unwilling to discipline a person who they do not have direct oversight of, but surely there is someone who will go with you as a witness to your wife? Remember the question I asked about "you"? What are you doing to care for yourself and your daughter?

This is just a suggestion... Maybe visiting a different denomination for a short while, until the fallout settles a bit more, would be wise. My family had a rough go when I was in seminary full time, and we ended up leaving the church that was in our denomination for just about a year until we could pull it back together. We did not agree with everything doctrinally, but the truth was my family needed to be loved on a bit by the church and the place we were at did it well.


Originally Posted by marksaysay
I've been here where I live about 11 years and know lots about most of the churches and there are many that teach things that aren't sound doctrinally which is why it's been tough for me to find a new place.

As for my wife, the answer is no. She is not exhibiting anything that even remotely resembles Christ and that has been the hardest thing to come to grips with. I've always thought she was believer but it seems like she may have just been a pretender.

Do a search for PCA churches in your area, they are conservative and Bible believing. You won't agree with everything as a Baptist, but the preaching is generally sound.

My FWW had 2 affairs, one in 2001, the second in fall07 thru spring 08. All the while supporting me pursuing furthering my ministry and seminary studies, and professing to be a believer. The truth hit hard for her. The realization that she had not been apprehended by God and that she had been lying to herself about that hit her like a ton of bricks. I was blessed. She was repentant the next morning after DDay. I am sure she would have displayed repentance before, but I had not given her the opportunity. My in-laws took the same stance yours did, they were... um... less than supportive. I found out on June 18th, 2008. June 21st something hit me, and I did something I would never have thought to do on my own.

I extended grace. Not because i wanted to either, but because I felt compelled by what i believed. I took her in the shower, and in a non-sexual way, I washed her. I told her I loved her despite what she did to me. I told her I loved her as Christ did, and that I expected nothing from her except to listen to what i was saying. That was when she finally understood. Grace had apprehended my FWW, and it "clicked". That was (according to her) when she finally truly believed.

Like i said, my experience is unique (and maybe a little weird too). But for the most part, the pretending stopped. There are habits we are working on, but the patterns aren't there like they used to be. But it took me laying down my life, and being tough in many areas. Telling our kids was hard. They know everything about both of us, and still love us both.In fact, they may respect us a little bit more, because we were real, open and honest with them. We had humbled ourselves before them and they chose to endure with us.

All that said, there is always hope. Live what you preach. It's the hardest thing we can ever do, but if we can't do it, we sure can't expect the folks in the pews to. That may have been my hardest lesson. humbling my own self in the middle of it. Swallowing my pride and self-righteousness... And really being humble. Still struggle with it. even today... probably always will... But I don't think it will dominate me anymore. That's what I was getting at in regards to where are you looking. The puritans had a saying... For every 1 time you look at your heart, look 10 times to Christ. I think for those of us who believe, there is something to that.


Originally Posted by marksaysay
I haven't talked to the deacons about my financial situation but the pastor knows everything. He has tried to help where he could.

I am in an awfully terrible predicament and I'm praying that God would somehow intervene.

PS - I still need an IM as the letter is ready. I just need to include how she can contact me.

In our denom, the deacons help financially. I thought for you it may be the same thing. Brother, you are in my prayers tonight and tomorrow. What's an IM? In a former life, it was instant messenger!

Don't forget to work on you. I have found that the foundational concepts of MB are solidly biblical, even if they weren't intentionally designed that way.

CV
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/09/11 11:02 AM
Originally Posted by celticvoyager
I can understand another church being unwilling to discipline a person who they do not have direct oversight of, but surely there is someone who will go with you as a witness to your wife? Remember the question I asked about "you"? What are you doing to care for yourself and your daughter?

Brother, you are in my prayers tonight and tomorrow. What's an IM? In a former life, it was instant messenger!

Don't forget to work on you. I have found that the foundational concepts of MB are solidly biblical, even if they weren't intentionally designed that way.

CV

As far as someone going to be my witness, I've done that. Several have talked with her including our pastor and he just did so on Saturday. She lied to him about her boyfriend saying she just told me to get me to leave her alone. I know that's a lie because when she found out I'd told our daughter, her reply was, "You shouldn't have done that. What I do doesn't hurt our daughter because I don't do it in front of her." We are separated since October so I have no way of knowing who he is but I'm convinced that there is a "he". She can hide it because we live on different sides of town right now.

The questions to the other church pastors about Matthew 18 wasn't intended to get them to do so in my situation. I was asking if they would carry it out with one of their own members if the need was there.

I'm trying the best to care for myself. With little or no money, my options are limited. As my daughter goes, I only get to see her every other weekend and every other sunday due to the provisional agreement so I don't know what I can do for her since I'm barely with her.

An IM is MB's intermediary for the no contact in Plan B. I am having a tough time trying to continue seeing or talking with her in the current state that she's end and I'm ready to end all contact with her until something changes our situation or til the divorce happens and I'm ready to move on. To love someone so much but yet see them essentially run away from you hurts like heck. Not having any contact with her will help me greatly.

Thanks for your prayers. Lord knows I need as much as I can get. Believe me, I have been working on myself and I won't stop.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/09/11 04:33 PM
Anyone willing to be my IM? Anyone? Plan B letter is ready to go....
Posted By: SusieQ Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/09/11 04:48 PM
mark, have you checked with family, friends, neighbors, coworkers?
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/09/11 05:53 PM
Ive had several turn me down but I do have a question? I know of one family member who may be willing but she knows nothing about the infidelity or her affairs. My question is how much do I tell the IM if they don't know?
Posted By: SusieQ Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/09/11 06:27 PM
Would this person be able to remain neutral? And do you have the IM training guide written by ML? If not, let us know and we will get it to you.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/09/11 07:08 PM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
Would this person be able to remain neutral? And do you have the IM training guide written by ML? If not, let us know and we will get it to you.

I guess you're asking if she knew the truth about her neice, would she be able to handle the task? I think so. She was raised, as she told us at the beginning of all this, in a split family, so I think she may be the perfect one. Obviously, I don't think she'll disown her neice, but I don't think she'll hate me either. She's one of those who has remained cordial with me (and there are several). She is a very spiritual person and respects me and my contribution to the ministries at the church.

And no, i do not have that IM guide so could you or someone get that to me?
Posted By: SusieQ Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/09/11 07:19 PM
Here it is:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2264548

Has this A been exposed far and wide?
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/09/11 07:44 PM
No...she has admitted to a select few that she's on dating websites and such but only about 6 know about ONS and I don't think anyone really knows about her boyfriend.

She lied to our pastor on Saturday. Why would she tell him the truth. Shes lied to him from the beginning. She told him she just told me to make me leave her alone although I haven't been doing anything. She was mad mediation didn't happen.

The only proof I have is what she told me and I have no way of verifying it since we live on opposite ends of town now unless I stakeout. She's gonna lie.

One thing I do know is that her girlfriends are helping her and supporting her. She was showing them pictures of other men before divorce was even filed.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/09/11 09:49 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
No...she has admitted to a select few that she's on dating websites and such but only about 6 know about ONS and I don't think anyone really knows about her boyfriend.

She lied to our pastor on Saturday. Why would she tell him the truth. Shes lied to him from the beginning. She told him she just told me to make me leave her alone although I haven't been doing anything. She was mad mediation didn't happen.

The only proof I have is what she told me and I have no way of verifying it since we live on opposite ends of town now unless I stakeout. She's gonna lie.

One thing I do know is that her girlfriends are helping her and supporting her. She was showing them pictures of other men before divorce was even filed.

Anybody? How can I expose without solid evidence? If confronted, she'll just lie like she has been all along. If I tell her family, at least the ones who have some sense and those that don't know, will they perceive it as revenge since we've been separated now for 6+ months? I'm ready to act. I just need some good advice.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/09/11 10:05 PM
I have been really busy today, was holding off on further comment until I could read through your thread. Have you thought of emailing the radio show? If you click on the radio link above, you can get the address...
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/09/11 10:13 PM
Yes. I emailed a month or so ago. That was in regards to whether I should be in plan a or b. It was before her admittance of having a boyfriend. I am so ready to do something I just want to do it right.

Exposing without anything but a confession to me seems to be weak but she has had absolutely no pressure applied. Father nor mother care. Most of her family that would say something live out of state. They would probably still say something but she'll just lie. I do still have most of the old proof like website correspondence and profiles.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/09/11 10:36 PM
Did they answer your email on the radio show? What did they say? You can always email them again.

I will try to read thru tonight and see if I can give you more feedback...
Posted By: My4Loves Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/09/11 11:46 PM
Expose what you know - your wife has a boyfriend that she told you about and this is adultery. That is all you can do is tell the truth.

All waywards are dishonest. They will justify it with deceipt, lying, and omission because that is what they do. Everytime a BS exposes they are also exposing themselves to the chance the wayward will be dishonest, so BS looks crazy and vengeful.

It doesn't matter because people will have doubt about your wayward, by exposing you do place some kind of mistrust upon the wayward. Wayward's actions usually do not resemble angels, so those that have been exposed will watch her more carefully. They will try and disprove your words. Two things will happen either your wayward's action are shown to be innocent or guilty.

If her actions are raising doubt among those that have been exposed, then most people will catch on that the wayward is likely in an affair. People are not that stupid.

Exposure is still your best weapon for killing the affair. Don't even think about how the wayward will be deceitful because she will be deceictful. It is a given. Just follow the truth and let the cards fall.

Exposing based on the truth will do wonders down the road.

Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/09/11 11:59 PM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
Did they answer your email on the radio show? What did they say? You can always email them again.

I will try to read thru tonight and see if I can give you more feedback...

Yes, they did respond but it was like a week later as they said somehow it had gotten lost. They said to try plan a as long as I could and then go to plan b.

Again, I did not ask whether or not I should do another attempt at exposure. I didn't know about her "boyfriend" and the last exposure was pretty weak in that it was to about 8 people and it was about 5 months ago. Four of them were on FIL side of family and all had affairs and only one was sorry for having done so but wife won't even speak to her (FIL's wife of 30 yrs). The others were her mother, our pastor, her cousin, and a close family friend. All of them said something but mother doesn't really care and she just lies to everyone else about what she's doing. But they all know the truth without a doubt as they have all seen the signs.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/10/11 12:06 AM
Originally Posted by itistoughlove
All waywards are dishonest. They will justify it with deceipt, lying, and omission because that is what they do. Everytime a BS exposes they are also exposing themselves to the chance the wayward will be dishonest, so BS looks crazy and vengeful.

It's so funny to think about a running joke WW and I had during our marriage was about how she was a bad lier and she was. She would either crack under the pressure of knowing she was trying to lie or she would smirk which was a dead giveaway. We used to laugh about that all the time. She's gotten pretty good at it now.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/10/11 12:14 AM
So did my WH Mark. It's crazy when you realize it huh?

So, I dunno how this was missed earlier, but why wasn't all of your WW's A's exposed far and wide? Exposure should have been done. I think that you should expose it this way. Write/contact ALL of the people who you are going to expose to. Tell them ALL of your WW's adultery history in one exposure. Anyone who you think may influence your WW should be contacted.

Get the exposures done all at once. Write up your list. Get the wording right(write it out here and ask for editing). Then expose this far and wide, not being concerned with the outcome.

Also, I think you should write your Plan B letter. You should probably go into Plan B right at the same time, then you won't have to deal with your WWs reaction.

Just my 2 cents.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/10/11 12:28 AM
Originally Posted by Scotland
So did my WH Mark. It's crazy when you realize it huh?

So, I dunno how this was missed earlier, but why wasn't all of your WW's A's exposed far and wide? Exposure should have been done. I think that you should expose it this way. Write/contact ALL of the people who you are going to expose to. Tell them ALL of your WW's adultery history in one exposure. Anyone who you think may influence your WW should be contacted.

Get the exposures done all at once. Write up your list. Get the wording right(write it out here and ask for editing). Then expose this far and wide, not being concerned with the outcome.

Also, I think you should write your Plan B letter. You should probably go into Plan B right at the same time, then you won't have to deal with your WWs reaction.

Just my 2 cents.

I think you are right that I need to go far and wide. I was just wondering if I should reveal just the recent info or include everything. I was wondering how it should be done, in person, email, facebook, etc.

Also, I have my Plan B letter written, i'm just waiting for an IM. One person has told me they will get back with me tomorrow.

Also, could someone give me an idea of what I could write in an exposure letter since most of the exposure I will have to do will be FB. What should I say?
Posted By: SusieQ Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/10/11 01:16 AM
Ok, so some thoughts after reading through...

First I agree with all the advice you have been getting from Scotty smile It's great that you've had her support & help all along...

Next, your W is so foggy that it doesn't sound like she gave you much of a chance to Plan A frown I guess I am trying to reassure you that I don't think that there is too much more that you could have done or tried and I think you are right to go to Plan B...

OK, re exposure. Just something to think about, you can go into Plan B and then do the exposure. That you won't have to deal with any of the fallout of it.

I will be back with the fb form that we have. Hang in there, mark!
Posted By: SusieQ Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/10/11 01:19 AM
Do you know who the OM is? If not, is there any way for you to find out? This fb form is geared towards exposing the OP.



Dear friend of Joe Scumbag,

It grieves me to write this letter but I believe all of his friends should know the kind of person he really is. Joe had an affair with my wife, Sally, from Aug until September. I believe that his friends should know this, so you can protect your marriage from him. My wife and I have 2 small daughters and this affair has almost wrecked our marriage.

I would be happy to provide the evidence to anyone who asks.

I would appreciate it if someone would notify his parents and ask them to call me at xxx-www-xxxx.

Thank you, BH

Dear friend of Skankyhola,

It grieves me to write this letter but I believe all of her friends should be aware that Skanky is having an affair with my husband, Joe. We have been married for 5 years. They have been having this affair since October according to the evidence.
I would be happy to provide the evidence to anyone who asks.

I would ask that you use your influence with Skanky to persuade her to leave my husband alone. You should also watch your own husbands around her because she is no friend to marriage.

I would appreciate it if someone would notify her parents and ask them to call me at xxx-www-xxxx.
Thank you, BW
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/10/11 01:29 AM
No, I don't know who he is, just that I'm 1000% he exists. With all the proof I have about what she has done prior to this point, I don't think anyone will really doubt. I just wonder if they will even say anything.

Also, what about some of her friends that I'm sure don't know. There are some but I dont know if they'll say anything either but I guess I won't know if I don't try.

There has to be some type of letter I could post on fb to friends and family. That's pretty much all the contact I have since most of them live out of town.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/10/11 01:29 AM
No, I don't know who he is, just that I'm 1000% he exists. With all the proof I have about what she has done prior to this point, I don't think anyone will really doubt. I just wonder if they will even say anything.

Also, what about some of her friends that I'm sure don't know. There are some but I dont know if they'll say anything either but I guess I won't know if I don't try.

There has to be some type of letter I could post on fb to friends and family. That's pretty much all the contact I have since most of them live out of town.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/10/11 02:45 AM
Here is the FB message I had composed. Let me know your thoughts:

Dear friend or family of WW,

I am writing this to ask you to support myself and my family though this difficult period . You may not know it, but YYY is in another adulterous affair. I say another because I found out in November about her one-night-stand. Since then she has been on 2 dating websites listed as a single women. I have copies of some of the correspondence with these men. Most of the correspondence I have is from before she filed for divorce. She has sent explicit pictures to atleast 3 men, had sexual conversations with others, and recently even told me that she has a boyfriend and that she likes him and we are not even divorced yet. While all this began prior to her filing, she filed because I contacted a man she had been planning on meeting and I told him she was married. He cut her off that day because she lied about being divorced. She was so mad I did this, she went and filed the next day.

I know you care about WW and want only the best for her and our daughter which clearly being in an adulterous affair is not. Unfortunately WW has chosen to misrepresent the truth of her adultery to myself as well as to some of her family and friends. She has done nothing but tell lie after lie after lie to several people including Pastor XXX.
Many thanks for reading this mail and understanding the difficulties we are going through as a family. I�d appreciate any support in trying to put my family back together.


Also, when you guys say expose deep and wide, how many people are you suggesting? [color:#3366FF][/color]
Posted By: SusieQ Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/10/11 03:23 AM
I think your letter is great. Far and wide would include both sets of your parents, siblings, any other family & friends that could have an influence on your W...
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/10/11 03:33 AM
Thanks. I'm just so hesitant to tell my family as I don't want them to think badly of her. I still love her. Also, she has never had a really close relationship with my family since we live several states away from them. We have pretty much only gotten to see them once a year for the entirety of our relationship.

How do the BS's family usually react? Will they think I'm crazy for still wanting her after finding out some of the things she's done?
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/10/11 03:40 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Thanks. I'm just so hesitant to tell my family as I don't want them to think badly of her. I still love her. Also, she has never had a really close relationship with my family since we live several states away from them. We have pretty much only gotten to see them once a year for the entirety of our relationship.

How do the BS's family usually react? Will they think I'm crazy for still wanting her after finding out some of the things she's done?

Mark, really?? I understand you love her, but you want to be honest, right? Give them the option to feel about her the way they do from an informed decision. My in laws were horrid. My Father in law mentioned working out a way to have thanksgiving with me, FWW, OM and the kids there... Needless to say, we have no contact with them. They may think you are nuts, but who cares? The truth is more important than our image.

CV
Posted By: SusieQ Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/10/11 03:43 AM
I think there is a good chance they will think it is great that you are doing whatever you can to keep your family together (if possible). smile

NEVER shield a WS from the consequences of their actions. It will be good for your W for her to see her actions through the eyes of her family (disappointment, embarrassment, etc). That's a big part of the reason for exposure! This is a GOOD thing!
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/10/11 03:46 AM
Originally Posted by celticvoyager
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Thanks. I'm just so hesitant to tell my family as I don't want them to think badly of her. I still love her. Also, she has never had a really close relationship with my family since we live several states away from them. We have pretty much only gotten to see them once a year for the entirety of our relationship.

How do the BS's family usually react? Will they think I'm crazy for still wanting her after finding out some of the things she's done?

Mark, really?? I understand you love her, but you want to be honest, right? Give them the option to feel about her the way they do from an informed decision. My in laws were horrid. My Father in law mentioned working out a way to have thanksgiving with me, FWW, OM and the kids there... Needless to say, we have no contact with them. They may think you are nuts, but who cares? The truth is more important than our image.

CV

You're right. I guess I should just tell them. As far as her family, do I tell cousins, too? She has several cousins a few years older than us that might say something. They may not. From what I've heard, they even said she was kinda wild as a teen, but so was I.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/10/11 03:51 AM
Bust it wide open. Sin thrives in darkness, expose it to the light.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/10/11 03:56 AM
I'm ready to do it. I'm just waiting on an IM. As I stated earlier, I have one person waiting to give me an answer tomorrow. Other than that, I really don't have any other options. Anybody here interested?

I was just sitting here thinking about the consequences of what I am preparing to do and I remembered my WW saying that I embarrassed her when I initially exposed to the few people. How will she feel when i make it deeper? I'm not the one who has done these things. If she hadn't done them, there would be nothing to be embarrassed about.
Posted By: Mr_Recon6mo Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/10/11 06:23 AM
Yes, she will be embarassed but that is a good thing. The affair is connected to negative emotions then as it should.

Of course she will say that you are the bad one and you embarassed her. Doesn't mean that that is true and you know that. You also know that she will be furious beyond limits. Heck, my W send a very nasty email to me even after I just contacted OM (didn't expose initially). Everything that is interfering the affair will get a very bad reaction. And since the exposure will be the biggest blow to the affair then the reaction is also unbelievably angry.

But your job is not to avoid anger but to kill the affair. I do understand your hesitance, I guess you are afraid that if you will make your WW angry then you will lose the last hope you had. I'm sorry to say but this kind of thinking will lead you to the divorce much more likely. The reason is that if you won't respect yourself (by letting the affair continue without interfering) then others (esp. your WW) can't respect you also. And for women, there is no love without respect towards their man. By exposure, in spite of initial anger, two goals will be achieved - affair is severely weakened if not killed and your WW actually loves you more (well of course they will admit that much much later smile ).
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/10/11 10:54 AM
Recon, don't think I'm having second thoughts about the exposure. I've actually never been more motivated to do than I ever had. I guess the fear of making her look bad was what prevented me from going deep and wide with the exposure was why I didn't do it months ago.

It's funny because there have also been several that said I shouldn't have told people then. Whatever goes on in our house should stay in our house. One of those was her dad. My pastor even told me that's one of the things that has prevented our reconciliation. I don't believe that's the truth.

As soon as an IM is in place, the exposure bomb will be released. Just waiting. I'm so ready to do it now that I'm considering doing it without an IM in place. She's gonna be mad, I know, but what can she do that's worse than what she's already said and done. I could always ignore her phone calls, texts, and emails.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/10/11 11:49 AM
Mark, I am sorry, I have failed you.

I never realized that you hadn't exposed your WW's A BEFORE.

Now, you WILL tell your family. Firstly, you need their support, and second, they may be the only ones who actually stand up for your marriage. About the exposure letter, did you send any yet?

I have a bit of editing of my own, if you don't mind. smile

Quote
Dear friend or family of WW(and MINE too),

I am writing this to ask you to support myself and my family though this difficult period (me in my fight to save my family.

You may not know it, but YYY is in another adulterous affair. I say another because I found out in November about her one night stand(a one night stand she had in XX).

Since then she has been on 2 dating websites listed as a single woman. I have copies of some of the correspondence with these men. Most of the correspondence I have is from before she filed for divorce. She has sent explicit pictures to at least 3 men, had sexual conversations with others, and recently even told me that she has a boyfriend and that she likes him and we are not even divorced yet. While all this began prior to her filing, she filed because I contacted a man she had been planning on meeting and I told him she was married. He cut her off that day because she lied about being divorced. She was so mad I did this, she went and filed the next day. (I was saddened beyond belief.)

(I can not hope to save my marriage while WW is engaged in adultery.)

I know you care about WW and want only the best for her and our daughter, which clearly being in an adulterous affair is not. Unfortunately WW has chosen to misrepresent the truth of her adultery to myself as well as to some of her family and friends. She has done nothing but tell lie after lie after lie(lied)[the other way was verging on a LB and she WILL see this letter. Also, this line made ME mad at you, so I removed it] to several people including Pastor XXX.

Many thanks for reading this mail and understanding the difficulties we are going through as a family.I�d appreciate any support in trying to put my family back together. (Thank you.)

Just a little tweaking. You could choose to expose just before Plan B, or just after.

Is this IM who is getting back to you today HER aunt? This person would need to remain completely neutral. Do you have a friend who could do it?
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/10/11 12:43 PM
Scotland, don't feel bad. We all make mistakes as I am partly responsible for having to even be here. Please don't beat yourself up.

Also, I like the changes you made and I think this is exactly what I will send.

The IM that is getting back to me today is not her aunt but it is someone who knows both of us pretty well. Hopefully I will get a confirmation today.

I'm just ready to get the ball rolling. I'm even willing to do so without being in Plan B and without an IM. I've heard many a vicious tirade from her and I've survived. I could just ignore her until an IM is in place. What do you guys think about that? I'm ready to get it started TODAY!!!

So to answer your other question, no, I haven't sent the letter yet, but I'm so ready to.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/10/11 01:22 PM
Well, just got a decline from pending IM. I will keep looking. I still want to move forward without the IM in place, though.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/10/11 05:27 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Well, just got a decline from pending IM. I will keep looking. I still want to move forward without the IM in place, though.

Do you mean that you will expose without an IM in place, because that you CAN do. You CAN'T Plan B without an IM though.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/10/11 07:20 PM
Yeah. I'll just have to avoid any form of contact with her for a while.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/10/11 07:43 PM
When are you doing your exposure?

Sorry it didn't work out with an IM. Hopefully someone here will be to help you out....

For anyone lurking & considering, when Melody was helping me with my short stint as an IM a while back, I believe that she said that once everything is in place it is a pretty easy job.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/10/11 08:07 PM
I want to do it tonight.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/10/11 08:22 PM
Would it be to much to list her dating profile info on the exposure letter if people want to see it? In it, she says she is outgoing and HONEST which is obviously a lie. She says she doesn't smoke which she does. She says she is SINGLE which she isn't. She says she is looking for a long-term relationship and she's not out of this one yet.

Also, I was just curious. I'm going to do the exposure bomb within the next day or so, maybe even tonight, but how many stories out there are there where an exposure bomb was successful? I've read a lot about it doing nothing but not many that had a positive result. I am just curious....
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/11/11 01:18 AM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
When are you doing your exposure?

Sorry it didn't work out with an IM. Hopefully someone here will be to help you out....

For anyone lurking & considering, when Melody was helping me with my short stint as an IM a while back, I believe that she said that once everything is in place it is a pretty easy job.

What's involved in being an IM?

CV
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/11/11 01:24 AM
CV, the link below explains it. You pretty much serve as a filter for communication between WW and me. Any communication must go through you and you only pass to me that which meets the criteria of the plan b letter which would be to only have contact regarding DD or reconciliation. nothing else in between.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2264548

Whoever is my IM would have a pretty easy job. We hardly ever talk anymore through any form of communication. I will say she did call tonight, though, about plans that DD has coming up. She just doesn't know the ball is about to drop.

Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/11/11 01:37 AM
Seems easy enough, just one problem. How does it work? Do the parties get my phone number, e-mail, what?

I am willing to help Mark, but not sure I want to be called and chewed out at 3am by a WW.

Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/11/11 01:39 AM
I would only do it via email. Obviously, we are not bosom buddies but brothers in Christ. Yet, in spite of that, I wouldn't want to put you in that predicament.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/11/11 01:42 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Would it be to much to list her dating profile info on the exposure letter if people want to see it? In it, she says she is outgoing and HONEST which is obviously a lie. She says she doesn't smoke which she does. She says she is SINGLE which she isn't. She says she is looking for a long-term relationship and she's not out of this one yet.

Also, I was just curious. I'm going to do the exposure bomb within the next day or so, maybe even tonight, but how many stories out there are there where an exposure bomb was successful? I've read a lot about it doing nothing but not many that had a positive result. I am just curious....

Any response to this?
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/11/11 01:47 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
I would only do it via email. Obviously, we are not bosom buddies but brothers in Christ. Yet, in spite of that, I wouldn't want to put you in that predicament.

Ok, let me double check with the wife and make sure she's cool with me doing this... Stand by...

Cv
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/11/11 01:56 AM
ok. Wife is ok with me doing it. So I think you can email the moderator (justuss2@aol.com), let them know that it is ok with me for them to pass my email along to you. Let them know why, and I will wait to hear from you. We can work out particulars and such there.

CV
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/11/11 01:59 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Would it be to much to list her dating profile info on the exposure letter if people want to see it? In it, she says she is outgoing and HONEST which is obviously a lie. She says she doesn't smoke which she does. She says she is SINGLE which she isn't. She says she is looking for a long-term relationship and she's not out of this one yet.

Also, I was just curious. I'm going to do the exposure bomb within the next day or so, maybe even tonight, but how many stories out there are there where an exposure bomb was successful? I've read a lot about it doing nothing but not many that had a positive result. I am just curious....

Any response to this?

Don't know about the last part, but I would leave the details out, if someone is interested, fill in the particulars of the sites and such on a need to know basis.

CV
Posted By: SusieQ Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/11/11 02:13 AM
Celtic, you are wonderful for helping out!

A couple of things Mel told me that I thought I would run by you (hopefully I am remembering this correctly, this conversation was a while ago, I did not keep the notes)

Send Marks' WW a letter introducing yourself.

(Ex, My name is xxx. I will be the intermediary for communications between yourself and marksaysay. I will be serving in a neutral capacity. Feel free to contact me to pass along messages that are in accordance with marksaysay's letter.

Thanks, CV)

Keep conversations short, to the point and polite ~ and keep a copy of them in a separate folder in case they are later needed for any reason.

Hope this helps. Thanks again, CV!
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/11/11 02:25 AM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
Celtic, you are wonderful for helping out!

A couple of things Mel told me that I thought I would run by you (hopefully I am remembering this correctly, this conversation was a while ago, I did not keep the notes)

Send Marks' WW a letter introducing yourself.

(Ex, My name is xxx. I will be the intermediary for communications between yourself and marksaysay. I will be serving in a neutral capacity. Feel free to contact me to pass along messages that are in accordance with marksaysay's letter.

Thanks, CV)

Keep conversations short, to the point and polite ~ and keep a copy of them in a separate folder in case they are later needed for any reason.

Hope this helps. Thanks again, CV!

It does! Thanks Susie! I am not sure I am adequate, but I am available. Any and all help is welcome!

I guess I need a copy of his letter to her as well?

CV
Posted By: SusieQ Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/11/11 02:34 AM
Oh, yes!

You saw the link to the IM training thread, right? There's lots of info there. I don't have too much experience, was only an IM for one day (long story) smile
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/11/11 02:44 AM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
Oh, yes!

You saw the link to the IM training thread, right? There's lots of info there. I don't have too much experience, was only an IM for one day (long story) smile

I got nuthin but time! Nuthin but time....Lol

Seriously, I did read the first few. Will go through more as we get moving on it.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/11/11 02:48 AM
Okay, CV, I want to thank you for your help. I will send a copy of the letter as soon as your email address is passed along to me. I guess I will go into Plan B as soon as we get the information exchanged.

Also, I spoke with my dad and another minister friend about my desire to expose. They were both adamantly against it. They say that no good can come from it. They both say what happens in our marriage belongs only in our marriage. My dad even said it would probably ruin my chances of ever reconciling with her.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/11/11 02:57 AM
Awesome. Looking forward to hearing from you.

As for the advice... Did they give reasons? One thing we as Christians are to do is bring evil deeds to light. not for the purpose of punishment, but so we can better restore the sinner first to God and then to those friends and family that they have estranged themselves from because of their sin. Exposure has the ability to bring the sin to light, expose it for what it is. It makes it "no longer fun". Additionally, it also takes some of the burden off of you (Romans 15:1 Bear one another's burdens).

This has been perhaps the most disappointing thing reading your thread, that there has not been someone strong enough to help you bear your burden in love where you live. Particularly in reading about pastors who won't stand strong and firm against sin... All that said, It sounds like it's not sound logic to expose, but it really is.

CV
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/11/11 03:06 AM
They just simply said it is no one else's business and that it won't get me anything more than a mad STBXW. Yes, I told them that the reason she has carried on for so long is because essentially no one knows. They said that is the way it should be. My dad even said that it would probably push her farther away from me.

What they said also made me question whether what she said to me about the boyfriend is the truth or whether she simply said it to try to get me to leave her alone. They said it will do nothing but make me look bad to her family since we have been separated for so long and we are so far in the divorce process. Most, they said, would simply take it as a crazed man who just will not accept that his marriage is over.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/11/11 03:47 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Well, I don't know what God is doing, but HE is doing something. I and wife both showed up for mediation today with the knowledge that we'd be billed for our session if we couldn't pay. Upon getting there, we were told that we had to pay $300 upfront before anything could be started. We were both then given 60 days to come up with the money. This is the 3rd time in our divorce process where things have hit a snag that really neither of us had control over.

We were supposed to be going to final hearing that was reset for June 2nd pending mediation but now that's not gonna happen. I don't know but my thoughts based on everything that has happened is that our divorce may not be in His will. I just don't know anymore.

But one thing I do know is that God is in control.

Got some correspondence from the courts today stating that WW's request to change mediators has been denied. It just seems that everything she wants to do and tries to do to MAKE this divorce happen doesn't happen. Maybe God does have another plan. Maybe I should just go Plan B for a while before considering exposure.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/11/11 04:57 PM
First, you are going to take the advice of laypeople over the advice of Dr Harley, a licensed professional who has been helping marriages recover from infidelity for decades?? Really??

Second, exposure is meant to help the wayward see their actions through the eyes of others and help defog them. If a WS can't get over the exposure, it means they haven't come out of the fog and there is no M anyway!
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/11/11 06:56 PM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
First, you are going to take the advice of laypeople over the advice of Dr Harley, a licensed professional who has been helping marriages recover from infidelity for decades?? Really??

Second, exposure is meant to help the wayward see their actions through the eyes of others and help defog them. If a WS can't get over the exposure, it means they haven't come out of the fog and there is no M anyway!

Susie,

With all due respect to you, pastoral care *is* professional care. I would agree in regards to family members. Now the question of competent professionals in a particular field is another question... Everything else i agree with, spot on!


CV
Posted By: SusieQ Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/11/11 07:12 PM
I meant a professional in terms of saving marriages and dealing with affairs, not in any other capacity...
Posted By: SusieQ Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/11/11 07:23 PM
I have a knee-jerk reaction when I see people come here and say "But my counselor, pastor or [fill in the blank] told me..." because we have so many folks who come here and the A has just been thriving under bad advice they are getting from these professionals.

My suggestion would be to ask these folks how many marriages they have saved after an affair.

I did not mean any disrespect to pastors, CV. Honestly.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/11/11 08:11 PM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
My suggestion would be to ask these folks how many marriages they have saved after an affair.

I did not mean any disrespect to pastors, CV. Honestly.

Yeah. I know where you are coming from (hey, I am here too, and i am in the ministry!) For the record, I have successfully counseled people to recovery *before* we came to MB (ironically the counsel we gave was very similar to Dr H's), as has several pastors I know. That said, it is a WEAK area where much work needs to be done on behalf of pastors.

On a more related topic... I have a question doing this IM thing. I received this from the WS after sending the intro letter suggested:

From: WW
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 3:25 PM
To: CV
Subject: RE: Introduction

Mr. CV,

I guess I do not understand the need to have you involved in our daughter's life or for H and I to communicate for her benefit. I am going to refuse this type of communication that H has suggested. If it is a court order, which I highly doubt that it will be, than I will comply. Sorry that you somehow got involved, but I am not going through a 3rd party to talk about my daughter. I am not comfortable with this and I will not comply.

Thanks,

WW

To which I responded:

Mrs. WW,

Your H has stated that the reason he desires this type of communication is �to preserve his emotional well being and overall health�. It is not my desire to become involved with the particular issues which you and your husband are involved with, but to act instead as an independent, detached medium (intermediary) of communication by which H feels protected in his emotional well being. Should H choose to reinstitute contact on his own, he will notify me and I will cease passing communication from him to you and vice versa. Again, I serve no purpose in counseling either party on any situation, but simply stand as a viable medium of communication in accordance with H�s expressed desire.

Thanks,

CV


Does this look acceptable to you? She has stated that she will not comply, but should that be interpreted as he requesting that I not contact her as Marksaysay passes info through me? Should I say something more?

Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/11/11 08:24 PM
If you hear back from WW, just state

WW,
I am available if you want to communicate with BH about children, finances or recovering the marriage.
IM


Fact is, the intermediary is the only way for communication. The WW hasn't yet discovered that all other attempt of communicating will be referred back to you.

If BH is approached in any other way (written or in person), he should refer her back to you. "I will not speak with you unless you end your affair. All communication will be through intermediary". over and over and over and over and over again til she 'gets it'.

You don't need to educate her further on your purpose. She either has the dinger go off showing her how valuable the intermediary is or she doesn't....in which case there is no venue for her to communicate. She eventually will figure that out.
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/11/11 08:26 PM
Also, having the emails/documentation that there IS a venue to communicate about children/finances is important. It shows the oppurtunity IS there for the wayward. They can not claim that the betrayed did not have it set up to be utilized.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/11/11 08:32 PM
So legally, is my behind in the clear? Free from accusations of harassment, invasion of privacy, etc?

Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/11/11 08:41 PM
You aren't harassing, are ya?

You just send info through to the other side. You are merely a conduit of communication. Period.

Simple info. Edit out emotional or disrespectful muck.

Legally, if the wayward were to be nasty, your clear, simple, respectful emails would be obviously what they are. Help for the spouses to communicate important data.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/11/11 09:16 PM
No, not harassing. Just what you saw that i posted. thanks

CV
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/11/11 10:33 PM
It's kinda funny to see my whole drama unfolding here on the site. I will tell you that she promptly left me a message which was immediately deleted. She'll get it sooner or later. She's a super control freak in the fog. I think that's an especially bad combination.

I knew she would hate it. She has lost total control of me when she never really had it in the first place.

Also, with the help of my IM, I am thoroughly convinced that exposure should and will take place. I think I will drop the bomb either tonight or tomorrow.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/11/11 10:50 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
It's kinda funny to see my whole drama unfolding here on the site. I will tell you that she promptly left me a message which was immediately deleted. She'll get it sooner or later. She's a super control freak in the fog. I think that's an especially bad combination.

I knew she would hate it. She has lost total control of me when she never really had it in the first place.

Also, with the help of my IM, I am thoroughly convinced that exposure should and will take place. I think I will drop the bomb either tonight or tomorrow.

Your IM seems like a really handsome and cool guy. Dazzling personality and charming wit. ;-)

On a serious note, make sure any email you send is through the IM too. even if she avoids responding to the IM, she will see you're serious.

CV
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/11/11 11:35 PM
So, you are in Plan B then? Did you send the letter?

CV, I know that you don't know what to do as an IM. My suggestion is to not ask for help with IM duties on this thread. You writing what his WW said in an email is nothing that he needs to know. Don't get me wrong, I commend you for helping, you will just need to find a new way to find out what you need to know that will allow Mark not to find out what his WW is saying.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/11/11 11:42 PM
Originally Posted by celticvoyager
On a serious note, make sure any email you send is through the IM too. even if she avoids responding to the IM, she will see you're serious.

CV

I will. You don't have to worry about that. When I stated that she had left a message earlier, it was a voicemail which she had left promptly after getting home from work. And she must have hightailed it too because she works 30 mins away, gets off at 4:30, and the message was left at 4:44. I didn't listen. Just erased it.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/12/11 01:03 AM
Originally Posted by Scotland
CV, I know that you don't know what to do as an IM. My suggestion is to not ask for help with IM duties on this thread. You writing what his WW said in an email is nothing that he needs to know. Don't get me wrong, I commend you for helping, you will just need to find a new way to find out what you need to know that will allow Mark not to find out what his WW is saying.

LOL... ok. I'm showing that I'm a greenhorn here... thanks for the gentle admonition. Maybe start a new thread?

CV
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/12/11 01:29 AM
Okay, so here is the final draft of my exposure letter. I have made some slight modifications to the original and added a biblical perspective so that my intentions would not be misconstrued as being vengeful:

Dear friend or family of WW,

I am writing this to ask you to support me in my fight to save my family. But I also write in hopes that your influence may at the least reconcile WW back to God.

You may not know it, but WW is in another adulterous affair. I say another because I found out in November about a one night stand she had in September. Since the day we separated for the �space� she had asked for, she has been on 2 dating websites listed as a single woman. I have copies of some of the correspondence with these men. Most of the correspondence I have is from before she filed for divorce. She has sent explicit pictures to at least 3 men (I saw the pictures), had sexual conversations with others, and recently even told me that she has a new boyfriend and that she likes him and we are not even divorced yet. She also said what she is doing doesn�t affect our daughter because she doesn�t do it in front of her.

While all this began prior to her filing, she filed for divorce because I contacted a man she had shown pictures of to her girlfriends and was planning on meeting and I told him she was married. He cut her off that day because she lied about being divorced (again, I have proof). She was so mad I did this; she went and filed the next day. I was saddened beyond belief.

I cannot hope to save my marriage while WW is engaged in adultery. You may think I�m crazy for still loving her in spite of my knowledge of what she�s done, but I�m supposed to love her no matter what, right? I have constantly been in prayer asking God to extend his grace and mercy towards her.

I know you care about her and want only the best for her and our daughter, which clearly being in an adulterous affair is not. Unfortunately she has chosen to misrepresent the truth of her adultery to me as well as to some of her other family and friends. She has lied to several people including Pastor xxxx about what she�s been doing.

I�d appreciate any support in trying to put my family back together and at the very least, I�m hopeful that your guidance will turn her away from these adulterous activities and that she will recommit herself to Christ.

Thank you,
marksaysay


What do you guys think??? Is is too long?

Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan A - 05/12/11 02:51 AM
I do think it is way too long and full of too much for people to absorb and want to help. Here is my edit job that you can look over and ruminate on:

Originally Posted by marksaysay
Dear friend or family of WW,

I am writing this to ask you to support me in my fight to save my family.
You may not know it, but WW is cheating. I found out in November about a one night stand she had in September.
I then discovered she is involved with several men through online websites.

I cannot hope to save my marriage while WW is engaged in adultery.

I know you care about her and want only the best for her and our daughter, which clearly being in an adulterous affair is not.
I�d appreciate any support in trying to put my family back together.

Thank you,
marksaysay[/color]

What do you guys think??? Is is too long?
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/12/11 03:23 AM
Thanks reading, I understand your view. I just wanted to eliminate any idea that I have an evil or vengeful intent when I blast this out. We have been separated for 7 months and are far along in the divorce process and I wanted to eliminate all doubt as to my purpose.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/12/11 04:24 AM
Reading's edit was pretty good.

I would add this back into the end:


I�d appreciate any support in trying to put my family back together and at the very least that she will recommit herself to Christ.

cv
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/12/11 09:24 AM
I realized that on FB, you can send a message to several people at once. Should I do it this way or send the messages individually?
Posted By: SusieQ Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/12/11 09:38 AM
I think individually is best!
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/12/11 09:42 AM
okay. thanks.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/12/11 09:59 AM
bomb has been dropped....
Posted By: SusieQ Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/12/11 10:13 AM
Great!

Now, you've thought of all the ways she may try to contact you and blocked her, right?
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/12/11 10:24 AM
Yeah, I just forward her emails to IM. Her calls are unanswered and her messages and texts are just deleted. The only other way is to come to my apartment and I'm not usually home until 9 or 10.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/12/11 11:19 AM
Mark, you are doing the right thing. Don't forget that.

Why not change the email addy? Also, what about texts, calls etc? And what will you do is she shows up somewhere where you are?

Your WW WILL be angry about this. We usually tell people that it is like the girl in The Exorcist. She will tell you that she hates you and that she is NEVER coming back.

You may also have people who you expose to, be angry with you. Don't worry about that. Remember, you are doing the right thing.

Stay Strong. And, stay in Plan B.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/12/11 11:35 AM
I know and believe in my heart I am doing the right thing. As far as the email, I think I will change it. She changed hers after I cracked it to find the "dirt" and won't give me the new one. She only emails me during work hours through her work email.

Now the phone, I'm not sure what to do there. I can't afford to change now. I can't afford a prepaid. Heck, I'm so broke, I can't even change my mind. LOL. I will just have to continue to delete messages and disregard calls.

I don't know what she'll do if she shows up at apartment or work. Well, at work, they would have to call for me to come to the front (I work at a school) and I can just simply tell them that I'm not speaking with her and to just ask her to leave.

As for my apartment, I can just not answer the door. Any other suggestions?
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/12/11 11:51 AM
If you see her IRL, you should say, "Are you ready to stop your adultery and come home?" If she says anything other than, "Yes" you say, "Well, let my IM know when you have." Then walk away, shut the door, etc.

I forget, how do you exchange your DD? Is it possible that she will use that to get to you? And, do you have a legal arrangement set up for visitation? She may WILL use your DD against you. Be careful.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/12/11 02:53 PM
Can anyone get me in a witness protection program??? LOL
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/12/11 03:29 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
bomb has been dropped....

Are you hanging in there? How are you feeling?

CV
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/12/11 03:57 PM
Some what nervous but I don't regret it. I actually feel a sense of relief and I'm more calm than I imagined.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/12/11 10:05 PM
Well, for those who have followed my thread, there has been nothing come from the letter yet.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/12/11 10:48 PM
Originally Posted by Scotland
I forget, how do you exchange your DD? Is it possible that she will use that to get to you? And, do you have a legal arrangement set up for visitation? She may WILL use your DD against you. Be careful.

I get DD this weekend and it shouldn't be a problem. I pick her up from her after school program and take her to school Monday morning. I will have to send a message through IM to arrange the pick up of DD's things. Our drop off point was the home of an older family friend who was recently hospitalized so I will do that right after I'm done typing this message.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/13/11 02:23 PM
So were you forced to go in witness protection today? How's it going for you?

Posted By: Lexxxy Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 05/13/11 02:40 PM
Mark --

Try to avoid needing "things". Your daughter is 7. There is not much equipment needed for a 7 year old.
Have your own set of clothing, shoes, toothbrush, etc. So there should be no reason to potentially run into WW or have to interact with her.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan B - 05/13/11 03:45 PM
Originally Posted by Lexxxy
Mark --

Try to avoid needing "things". Your daughter is 7. There is not much equipment needed for a 7 year old.
Have your own set of clothing, shoes, toothbrush, etc. So there should be no reason to potentially run into WW or have to interact with her.

You're right. We've been exchanging a suitcase with DD clothing and gymnastics leotard but that will stop too. Wife will receive an empty suitcase after this exchange. I will admit that I've let her have control of those things but that will stop today.

Unfortunately I don't have any money to buy clothes but what she has was purchased by us so she should not and will not continue to control them. She does have toothbrush and toothpaste and such at my place.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/13/11 03:53 PM
Originally Posted by celticvoyager
So were you forced to go in witness protection today? How's it going for you?
.

It's going good. I checked last night and it seems that not many of those whom the letter was sent yesterday logged on. That will probably change today.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/13/11 09:27 PM
Well WW just tried to call. She did leave a message but, like yesterday, I deleted it before even hearing her voice. I sent a message through the IM but I don't think she responded to it.

As far as the bomb, still nothing yet. I'm really curious as to what her reaction would be. I do know that her married and very spiritual girlfriend was on fb yesterday. Don't know if she read the letter though.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/14/11 12:28 AM
Got a question. Since I recently started plan b, should I attend DD's event next week or should I stay in the dark for a while? I think I read somewhere that dr. Harley suggests staying out of any situation where seeing the wayward spouse is possible. Is that correct or should I go and just stay as far away as possible?
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/14/11 12:44 AM
Unfortunately, during Plan B, events are to be attended by only one parent. Even just seeing your WW will restart your Plan B and will show her that you aren't serious. You don't want her thinking that you aren't going to stick to what you said.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/14/11 12:56 AM
Originally Posted by Scotland
Unfortunately, during Plan B, events are to be attended by only one parent. Even just seeing your WW will restart your Plan B and will show her that you aren't serious. You don't want her thinking that you aren't going to stick to what you said.

That's kind of what I thought. As I sit and think about it, it really hurts to have to do it. It's my daughter's first part in a school play and I'm actually in the process of working with her now on her lines. I'm even starting to tear up a little realizing that I will be missing this monumental event in her life. It will be okay though. It's what I have to do.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/14/11 01:06 AM
{{{marksaysay}}}
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/14/11 01:09 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
I'm even starting to tear up a little realizing that I will be missing this monumental event in her life. It will be okay though. It's what I have to do.

Brother it *is* a big event. Explain to your daughter that you want to be there, but won't be able to. Reaffirm your love for her, and tell her that it won't always be this way. If she's like her dad, she's a smart cookie and will understand even though she may be sad.

One thing that strikes me is the incredible resilience of kids. Specially when we are honest with them.

But you remember the saying, right? let tomorrows problems worry about themselves, todays are sufficient for today
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/14/11 01:11 AM
Quote
Well WW just tried to call. She did leave a message but, like yesterday, I deleted it before even hearing her voice.
clap clap Excellent.

I know this is tough, especially knowing that you won't see your daughter perform. Do you know if your school is going to videotape it? I think a lot of schools do that now for parents who can't make it or for family out of town.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/14/11 01:22 AM
Originally Posted by princessmeggy
I know this is tough, especially knowing that you won't see your daughter perform. Do you know if your school is going to videotape it? I think a lot of schools do that now for parents who can't make it or for family out of town.

Yes, it's gonna be very tough for me that night but I'll manage. I remember my reaction when she was in her first talent show last year. Watching her on stage do her solo singing act and performing it flawlessly in spite of the noticable nervousness made me so proud of her that day. It's moments like that you just hate to miss.

Unfortunately, we've yet to see any recordings or hear of any recordings of her school related activities. We have always taken it upon ourselves to do that.

Posted By: My4Loves Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/14/11 01:45 AM
Mark - wonderful stuff. Keep up the Plan B with Pride. You will do great with it and you will see yourself growing leaps and bounds in all areas of your health.

Way to be a proud papa -- let us know if you need Plan B help, and the darker you go the better you will be.

Breathe
Pray
Enjoy you!

Cheers Tough
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/14/11 02:17 AM
Originally Posted by itistoughlove
Mark - wonderful stuff. Keep up the Plan B with Pride. You will do great with it and you will see yourself growing leaps and bounds in all areas of your health.

Way to be a proud papa -- let us know if you need Plan B help, and the darker you go the better you will be.

The hard part really doesn't have that much to do with my wife. Well, maybe it does since she is in la-la land with her "new man". It still hurts, but what hurts the most is the family unit that suffers as the result of the selfishness of the WW. I know I'm not the first nor the last to experience these emotions and feelings, but nonetheless, it's still difficult when it's me.

I know that Plan B is not designed to get the spouse to come back, but I can't say that I'm not at the least somewhat optimistic that it might work out that way in my situation. I not naive to think that it will, though. I do know that ultimately I will be much stronger as a result of having taken this step.

And, yes, I am a very proud papa. People have asked me, in light of my marital, financial, and at times, emotional struggles, if going back home (Texas)was a possibility. And the resounding answer to that is NO. I'm not going to leave my daughter. I will be where ever she is. PERIOD. I grew up having never known my dad. I met him for the first time on 5/27/94, the day I graduated high school. And although our situations are drastically different, I know what it feels like to not have your dad in your life and I can't/won't put my daughter through that.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/14/11 12:50 PM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
{{{marksaysay}}}

What does this mean?
Posted By: SusieQ Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/14/11 01:09 PM
It's basically a cyberhug-consolation.

How are things going? Ever hear anything from your exposure?
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/14/11 01:58 PM
No. I don't know if people have got the message or not. It wouldn't surprise me if they said nothing.

You know, I was thinking about what you said several posts ago about not really getting an opportunity to Plan A properly. I think that's what makes this such an odd situation. I started out from the very beginning doing everything wrong because I didn't know what was really going on.

I can't really go back, though. I'll just have to move forward with the way things are now. I'm thankful for all the help I've gotten from you and everyone here.

Still got a ways to go....
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/14/11 02:13 PM
Got another call and message from WW this morning. Again they were unanswered and deleted. Also got a text. The problem with texts is I can delete them without partially viewing them so I guess I will just let it remain on phone without viewing. Any suggestions?

Don't know if this may be something to do with DD or exposure or what but I'm not responding or answering anything. If she wants to contact me, she knows how to do it.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/14/11 02:48 PM
Just got yet another call and message. They both got the same treatment. I'm beginning to think it may have something to do with exposure but I can't be sure. I do know she hasn't called me this much in a short time span in forever.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/14/11 02:55 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Unfortunately, we've yet to see any recordings or hear of any recordings of her school related activities. We have always taken it upon ourselves to do that.

Ask a trusted friend to record the performance for you.
That same friend can present your DD with a small bouquet of flowers, with a note from you:

"Let's watch your performance together and celebrate!"
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/14/11 02:57 PM
Only idea I have Mark is to send a briefer shorter note through the IM.

Something to the effect of:

Dear WW,

Please remember the only way to contact me is through the IM.

Sincerely,

BH


Other may want to chime in. Maybe simply ignoring the messages is a better route?

Cv
Posted By: Pepperband Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/14/11 03:01 PM
Originally Posted by celticvoyager
Maybe simply ignoring the messages is a better route?

Without a doubt.

IGNORE
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/14/11 03:04 PM
It seems her calls and such were about DD. She just came to my apartment and left some things on my door. Nonetheless, contact has been arranged and her method was not accepted.

CV, I like your idea but the problem is she won't get the message 'til monday because she hasn't given me her new email address because of what happened before. She doesn't know that I've known it for a while but won't use it since she didn't give it to me. She emails only from work now.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/14/11 03:07 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
It seems her calls and such were about DD.

Unless there is a true emergency, WW can communicate via the IM.



Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/14/11 03:22 PM
Found out something interesting today. Her favorite professor from college and one whom she and another former classmate often meet for lunch to catch up has been at the mediation firm in charge of handling our case since last October. The correspondence from yesterday stated that he is now our mediator. I don't know if that can be possible. Wouldn't that be a conflict?
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/14/11 03:33 PM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Originally Posted by marksaysay
It seems her calls and such were about DD.

Unless there is a true emergency, WW can communicate via the IM.

Likewise, I am willing to bet she has access to her work email via webmail.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/14/11 03:34 PM
Indeed!
It is a HUGE conflict of interest.

Make your complaint/protest in writing.

Go directly to the top of the company's hierarchy.

Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/14/11 04:49 PM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Indeed!
It is a HUGE conflict of interest.

Make your complaint/protest in writing.

Go directly to the top of the company's hierarchy.


That's pretty much what I thought. This is similar to our first delay. The original judge had to recuse himself because he was also one of her professors.

On another note, just watched DD tryout for the local gymnastics team. She's been doing it since about 18 months. Shes very good at it and she did a fantastic job. They've been trying to get her on the team for a while. Again, I was the proud papa.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/14/11 04:50 PM
Originally Posted by celticvoyager
Likewise, I am willing to bet she has access to her work email via webmail.

I would bet the same thing.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/15/11 12:58 AM
Well, today was an enjoyable with DD. Watched her tryout for the gymnastics team, went to McDonald's playland again, played a few games, wrestled, and just had fun.

I will admit that my mind did wonder to WW and what she was doing. It's so hard to not think about her and OM. Is this normal? Why can't I just stop thinking about her and OM? Why can't I stop wondering what she's doing?

It's amazing the number of people on another forum that talk about "just letting them go". In principle, it sounds so easy but realistically, it's not. I've told myself many times to just let go and move on, but it's sooo hard.

I had to tell DD that I didn't want her to use the speakerphone feature on her phone. She called WW while on the way to gymnastics and just hearing her voice made many different thoughts emerge.
Posted By: My4Loves Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/15/11 01:20 AM
This is the time you should pick up books that help you focus on you.

I am enjoying HNHN, Fall In love | Stay in Love, and the Bible. I am a knitter, so I find taking that to places were my mind can wonder does me a lot of good.

You can also learn to play a musical instrument or go back to school.

Your life is all yours at the moment. Find things you enjoy doing and just do ...

One day at a time ... just keep remembering you will be in completely different place by July 4th!!! Stay Dark!!!
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/15/11 01:31 AM
Well, most of the things above I already do. I'm a glutton for information, so reading has always been something that I've done. The bible is an absolute for me as a minister. I have also been playing the piano since 8 and I'm currently learning to play jazz.

At this point, I don't know if I really want to read any more relationship books because 1) I've read several over the last 6+ months and I've learned tons. 2) They seem to make me take a couple steps back because they trigger thoughts about my relationship.

On the other thread where you made the same July 4th statement, my reply was simply that I hope I'm at a very different place. July 4th is a very important period. WW's family reunion is the 2nd, of course there is the 4th and the family tradition we'd created, the 7th is WW's bday, and the 11th is DD's bday. I really hope I will be at a different place because that week plus has been huge for the past 11 yrs.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/15/11 05:08 AM
I am having a hard time getting to sleep. Why do I feel like by going plan b, I've just given WW license to just go wild as if she already hasn't. It just feels so odd in that I told her to just do whatever she wants to do. I know I can't control it but it's tough.
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/15/11 05:30 AM
You are going through your own withdrawal from WW. Similar to what you want her to do and go through getting rid of affair partner.

All your emotions and the sensations are normal.

Thinking about her, hearing her voice, trouble sleeping, second guessing going to plan B.

Normal.

No fun. Nope.

Normal.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/15/11 11:57 AM
ITA with Reading. These feelings are all normal.

Part of what got me through, when I was having those thoughts, was realizing that during those times, I wasn't thinking rationally. I had to remind myself that when I went into Plan B, it was done with a lot of pre-thought and I KNEW it was the right choice, and nothing had changed.

Your WW was doing rotten things BEFORE you went into Plan B. Just like you can't control what others do, you also can't make someone do something either. You going into Plan B isn't going to make her act in a more despicable way, she will do that regardless of your actions. All you are doing is removing you from the equation. You are refusing to let her take you down with her.

When you are having those thoughts, it is more important NOT to contact her. Don't feed into it. Pray. It WILL pass, as long as you don't feed it.

Stay dark and don't doubt yourself. You really did all that you could have done.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/15/11 01:31 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
I am having a hard time getting to sleep. Why do I feel like by going plan b, I've just given WW license to just go wild as if she already hasn't. It just feels so odd in that I told her to just do whatever she wants to do. I know I can't control it but it's tough.

Focus. At various times I took an excedrin PM. It just helps you drift to sleep and sleep through the night. Not prescription stuff. Focus on those thoughts that are pure, lovely, and right. Take a bit to enjoy yourself too. Watch a movie or see a friend.

Make a rule of "no A talk"

cv
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/15/11 01:35 PM
Thanks Reading and Scotland. I guess I didn't really think that she would get worse, it was just that I finally gave her what she "wanted", which was to live her own life, and it just was eating at me. I know that many have gone through the same thing so I know I'm not alone.

I've read about the struggle that a wayward goes through after breaking off an affair and i never considered that, in essence, it's much the same experience for a BS in Plan B.

Another thing that so greatly bothers me is the fact that I never really had a chance to Plan A properly from Day 1. The idea and hope that I have of the Plan B affecting her seems to have been squashed by that fact alone. Yes, I still love my wife and continue to hope and pray for reconciliation, but it seems that with the circumstances of whole separation, it doesn't look likely.

The impact that spending time with my daughter was even harder knowing how this will impact her. Hearing her ask some of the questions and make some of the statements she's made just rips me apart. All of this as a result of her mother being so selfish.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/15/11 10:26 PM
Mark, the times that we see our children suffer from their parent's decisions ARE going to be hardest. Make sure that you are honest with your DD about your WW and what you tried to do. Remember that most of the things you say may wind up being heard by your WW as well. Keep venom out of it, but make it truthful.

What I found really effective was saying things like, "When two people are married, it is wrong for one of them to have a BF or a GF. And when you are single, it is wrong to date someone who is already married." My children then inferred that what my WH and OW were doing was wrong. They even asked if my WH would be able to go to heaven when he died. You can't leave the moral and principle teaching up to your WW, she is teaching your DD that wrong is right, and it's not.

You WILL make it through. And you really did do all that you could. I like to remember something my dad says, "When I know better, I do better." You were willing to change, and meet ENs, your WW wouldn't let you.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/15/11 11:21 PM
I know that I did what I could. I guess the disappointment I feel now is due to hearing and reading about all of those in Plan A while still in the same house. I never had the chance. Plan A is hard to do from a distance and I never had a chance. I feel like going Plan B, while it is the best for me, will probably do little to save my marriage since I wasn't able to do anything really to make her second guess walking away.

That's really the most frustrating part of my situation. I know this whole ordeal will do nothing but make me a better person in many different areas. It actually already has.

On a side note, I was watching a Tyler Perry play on DVD today when at the end Tyler Perry comes out and offers some insight in his reason for writing the play and some words of encouragement. In his monologue he stated that God often allows many of the resources available to you to fall through and doors to close so that He can prove to you and anyone else that He was responsible for the miracle and no one else. I have actually said these very words to a few people. Maybe it was confirmation, IDK.

The odd thing about the DVD is that I've had it for about 5 months and never watched it entirely until today. Maybe God was trying to tell me something. Nonetheless, I do know that if my marriage is to be saved and my WW turned around, HE is the only one with the ability to do it.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/16/11 12:50 PM
Mark, I totally get the doubting and second guessing.

In my sitch, I was able to Plan A(by all accounts, I did a good job) and I have been pretty darn good at Plan B, and my marriage will most likely end as well. Thing is, I am starting to get to the point where I don't care if it ends. I know that sounds bad, and to me, it is a little scary, but I don't regret one moment I spent in plan A or Plan B.

None of my Plan A or Plan B were about my WH. They were about ME. I get that now. I didn't then. When I started MB, I needed to believe that I was doing this to save my marriage. That was the only way I would have been convinced to do any of the things that I needed to do. I wanted to save my marriage so badly. Now, I don't even know if I want my WH to come home. I know that I would still give him a chance, so I haven't given up completely, but it's not the same. I believe that if you stick to MB, you will see that you really did do all that you could. Imagine what you would have done without MB and how your life would be different, then you may stop second guessing what you did do. laugh
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/17/11 02:07 AM
Well, my hands are kinda hurting now from the last couple of hours of messing around with learning jazz on the piano. I'm approaching 1 week in Plan B and I will say that WW still pops up in my mind. I guess no matter what happens, I'll be okay either way. It's still tough, though.

Also, it's been more than 2 months since my last porn episode and almost 3 weeks since my revelation about porn being adultery in the eyes of God and I'm doing GREAT. I even turned off a movie last week because it contained too much sexual content.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/17/11 10:21 PM
Well, I had a minor setback today. Things have been going fairly well until my pastor called. He is the pastor of the church that I left, where WW and her family goes, and who had a talk with her two weeks ago. In their talk, he asked if she was seeing someone which she denied. She said she didn't have time. She did admit to still texting and chatting via the dating website which he told her was still adultery. He's convinced she's lying about seeing someone.

When he told me about her "not having time", I told him to watch for something. I said watch and see that she is never at church on weekends that I have daughter meaning she has plenty of time every other weekend. I told him I would bet she doesn't attend this weekend.

I had to say all of that so you would understand that he called me today and said "you would've won that bet". Not realizing what he was talking, i asked "what bet" and he reminded me of my statement. He then tells me that she didn't attend. He didn't have to tell me for me to know but when he told me, it caused a lot of different emotions to surface yet again. I finally told him that I didn't want to hear anything else about my WW and he said okay.

The damage was already done, though, as it relates to my plan b and keeping my emotions in check. I wish he hadn't done that.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/17/11 10:31 PM
Mark,

You may want to have him take you to lunch (pastor's have expense accounts after all ) and explain to him why you don't want to hear about it. Not just that it is painful, but that you are doing a "plan b" with her. Explain to him what plan B is and what the desired result will be.

Now that I think about it, you may want to print some MB stuff out so he can read through it.

Hang in there brother, you are doing well

CV (who is now sitting down for some ribs and school work)
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/19/11 05:33 AM
How are you doing? Hanging in there?
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/19/11 11:26 AM
Doing okay, I guess. I just can't wait for the day when I don't ever think about her, if it comes at all.
Mark,

I just caught up on your thread and I�m worried about a few things. I think you made some very big mistakes that could cost you in terms of your DD. For starters, you should be seeing her much more than you�re seeing her. Not all is lost.

This is where there needs to be a bit of bluffing on your part, from a legal standpoint. I understand that you�re broke and can�t afford big legal expenses right now. But so was I.

There�s a ton in your situation that is similar to the one I had.

For a long time there was no one specific OM. There were a group of them that she was flirting with online and one she got physical with, but they didn�t have contact after their encounter, especially when I came home from my deployment and I confronted him. He didn�t know she was still married and I believe him since ALL the OM I talked to told me she lied to them about her marital status.

I divorced quickly, without mediation, and I gave up a lot, just as you are doing right now.

It was a pretty big hill to climb and undo after it was all over. I was unemployed, broke, and separated from my kids.

But I fought back eventually.

I have a feeling you will eventually get to a good place where you can fight for custody of your daughter.

But you need to do a few things to get yourself ready. Number one is to make sure your DD has her own very specific and special place in your apartment. Decorate a room for her and make it special.

Go into mediation asking for a 50/50 custody arrangement. You�re already in the middle of litigation and I�ve seen very little advice given to you on protecting your rights as a father. Understand that you have as much of a right to time with your DD as your WW does. This means you need to take steps to protect yourself and it starts at mediation.

Do not settle for anything less than 50/50 custody. Walk out of mediation with an agreement that you are to get 50/50 custody.

If she doesn�t give it or agree to it, then settle all other matters, but leave the custody up for contention. Courts have been very fair to fathers in the last few years. So get your life in total order. I would have advised you to not announce your porn thing publicly since it could be used against you in court. But that�s done now.

Can you afford a lawyer? You need one badly.

I can�t emphasize enough to you how important it is that you protect your rights as a father. Disappearing right now is not good for you legally.

You�re on a path right now which can be twisted against you and they could try to claim that you deserve no more than the time you have now. That means you need to ask for more time with your DD. Go to her plays. Sit far away if you need to, but you must show that you�re involved.

Courts could care less about Plan B or anything of the sort. Attending your daughter�s events doesn�t have to violate your Plan B if you sit far away from your WW and don�t speak to her.

I know that your WW will see you, so it isn�t really Plan B, but your absence from your DD�s events can be twisted against you legally.

You are now in a fight for your rights as a father. You�ve given too much ground on this front right now and you must do something to correct it.

I would start by lawyering up, filing a petition for primary custody, and steeling yourself for the fight.

You will otherwise find yourself divorced, paying out the nose in child support, never seeing your DD other than your every other weekend time, and in a world of hurt over not seeing your DD.

Your IM needs to step up and step in to really show they�re there and ready and able to respond and intervene.

Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/19/11 09:22 PM
Help,there are a couple of things from your post I want to address:

It seems that you were resigned to end your marriage and move on. That was your choice and I understand but i haven't totally given up yet. I'm doing everything humanly possible to try and keep things in tact.

As far as DD goes, full or at the least 50/50 custody was something I planned on addressing at mediation. I'm not really too worried about the public confession. At that point, it's hold on me was all bit gone and now I don't even think about it anymore. I would even take a poly to prove that it has not been a part of my life for a little while now.

What about the proof I have about her infidelity, both past and present? Couldn't that impact the courts when I've made some changes for the better and she continues in adultery? Couldn't that be something to use along with all her lies and deciet that ARE documented?

As far as legal counsel, I just can't afford it so that is pretty much out. Plus, since January, I have been paying support because of the provisional and I couldn't see DD more because I was going to school 4 days a week. Initially we'd agreed to split time, but school was an issue then.

Im also a little confused about what you want the IM to do. He's only a messenger.

Also, feel free anyone else who would like to chime in.
I wasn't resigned to the divorce. I didn't want it anymore than you want yours.

What I'm trying to do is wake you up to the very real possibility that you will have the arrangement you have now with your DD forever because you're establishing a status quo.

I'm not telling you to not fight the divorce, but the ball is rolling on that front whether you like it or not and the very short response you just gave me indicates that you really have no clue about family law, just as I didn't have a clue about family law.

Here's the reality:

The courts don't care about adultery or infidelity.

They don't care if she's lied or is documented to lie.

They do care if you're involved in your DD's activities.

They do care if you have a place for DD to sleep and stay at and an adequate home for her.

They do care how you get along with your WW and if you'll be able to coparent with her.

They are biased towards moms unless you are one of the men who actually fights.

Understand that she will likely not agree to 50/50, especially if she has a lawyer.

Get a second job if necessary, but you need a lawyer ASAP.

Men have been able to save their marriages, even after the divorce process has started. But those that saved their marriages did so because they fought smart legally and got the WW to a point where the WW realized she stood to lose custody.

You could talk till you're blue in the face about how you've given up on porn. I would use your public confession as her lawyer and try to twist it to make you out to be a pervert and introduce a doubt in the judge's mind on your ability to parent and how you might expose your daughter to your prurient interests. I sincerely hope she never learns of your confession.

As your lawyer, I would advise you to minimize and not overstate how much you looked at it. I would tell you that if you're confronted about it, I would admit that you looked, but NEVER admit that you were addicted. You're not a psychologist and can't determine on your own if you're addicted. The fact that you don't look at it anymore is proof you're not addicted.

Again, I give you this advice not to bash you but to wake you up.

You're in a war now that divorce papers are filed. She would be very smart to lawyer up. If she does so, you will be up the creek if you don't. Find help to pay for it or get a second job.

Your custody as a father depends on it.

Fighting tooth and nail for everything is the only thing that will let you come away with at least the shirt on your back.

Understand that "fighting" doesn't mean get dirty. It means standing up for yourself and let everyone know that you won't go quietly as a dad and that your DD needs you in her life.

That means you need to wear a suit to every single court appearance, even with the mediator. Your demanor matters. Your appearance matters.

Also, any email you send her can be used against you.

And don't be surprised if she attempts to insinuate, if not flat out accuse you, of abusing your DD.

She's already tried to file a restraining order against you, so I wouldn't put it past her and I wouldn't be surprised.

Like you, I was in denial about a lot, including the fact that she might resort to such dirty tactics.

Many women do resort to such tactics and there are a few men on this board who dealt with false accusations, myself included. My ex's accusations weren't as severe as some of the others here, but she did try to make it.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/20/11 12:02 AM
Well, neither of us can afford lawyers so weve both been representing ourselves. I understand what you're doing, believe me.

My reference to your divorce wasn't really about whether you wanted it or not. It was based on the fact you said it happened quickly. We are right now at 6 months since she filed with at least 2-3 more to go, if not more.

As far as the confession goes, she knows. Not much I can do about that

When it comes to the emails, I have a file that contains everything that has been sent and received, and to be honest, her correspondence is a lot more susceptible to being ridiculed. And when I say I have everything, I mean everything.

When it comes to involvement in my DD's life, I have always been there. I know that those on the thread will not like it but I even snuck in to see her play performance tonight. I showed up 15 minutes late, knowing that I wouldn't miss DD and stood at the door in a very dark auditorium. I stayed until DD's part came up and even recorded it on my phone. After her part was over I left and I still kept the nc. WW even tried to call me afterwards probably thinking I wasn't there.

When you talk about the ability to coparent, I've tried to talk with her throughout this. She always takes our conversations to another level even when asked to simply speak in a respectable manner. This happened even when I tried to discuss with her the logistics of the divorce. I even know others who have been verbally abused by her during all if this. So am I supposed to give her unlimited chances to simply be civil or protect my mental wellbeing.

A sheriffs deputy (and close friend) who was at the court when our final hearing fell through heard her tirade at the courthouse. I have witnesses to her verbally abusive behavior so her antics font scare me.

She's trying to bully me to get what she wants and I just won't allow it.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/20/11 12:08 AM
Originally Posted by helpthelostdads
Also, any email you send her can be used against you.

One thing the IM can do that helps here in a legal sense is save the vitriolic emails she sends as well...

My brother had an affair (to get his wife to leave him, rather than leaving because he had an affair...) and the adultery was a factor in our state. In fact, it was the deciding factor. the judge took him to task about the trustworthiness of him being able to care for the girls because of his bad moral decisions.

I am not sure of the laws where Mark is living, but it would be worth looking into.

CV
Ok. You're documenting. That's good.

But you must keep in mind that courts are biased.

Is there a formal arrangement with the current custody arrangement?

I ask because it is horrible for you. You should have 50/50 now.

My advice, from a legal standpoint and from a "save your marriage" standpoint, is that if you don't have a formal separation, which involves a temporary custody order, then there is nothing that legally restricts you from moving back into your home.

If, however, there is a formal, legally ordered separation, then stick with what you have now, but file for a pendente lite custody hearing if mediatin fails.

Go out today and get two books: Custody for Fathers, and Father's Rights.

Get these and read them and use them.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/20/11 06:42 PM
Yeah, I've been keeping emails for quite a while. I also have some pretty damaging texts from her if they are admissible (and if I knew how to get them from my phone to my pc).

And yes, there is a formal custody arrangement. Since the provisional hearing, I've been getting her every other Sunday and every other Friday thru Monday.

As far as the house is concerned, that's out right now. She moved out 1 1/5 months after I did because it gave her more freedom to do what she wanted. It's in foreclosure now and I don't have the funds to stop the process.

At this point, if my situation is going to be turned around, God will have to do it. I definitely know He can!!!
You are going to be killed with child support under that arrangement. You need more time not just for the financial considerations, but to protect your daughter. The only really damaging emails are ones where she threatens to keep you from seeing DD. The other damaging ones are any that insinuate or threaten. Otherwise, they likely won't hurt her much. You have to disclose all emails to her, and vice versa, during discovery.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/20/11 11:45 PM
So to all the vets, at what point do you feel comfortable with basically ripping a huge part of you away? That to me is what plan b feels like. Dont get me wrong, I think I'm doing the best thing for me. It is definitely harder than anything I've ever done.

How long does it take for you to get to the point of acceptance? I do think I'm doing fairly well for someone still in love with a WW, but can't say that I waver from thinking that this is about me to the idea that this is what will bring my wife back from fantasy island.

Do I really believe that she'll come down out of the clouds? At this point I still hope she will. I also know that either way I'll be okay but I can't help thinking about the impact of this situation on my daughter. I also find that in my limited, very limited, circle, they don't understand what a BS goes through.

Anyways, I guess I'll end my venting session for now.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/21/11 12:08 AM
When you think about this is effecting your DD, think about how confusing and harmful it would be to her if you were still dealing with your WW. That would be worse than anything you could possibly do by staying in Plan B.

How long it takes in Plan B before you start feeling better really depends on how quickly you can get your mind to stop thinking about your WW.

You need to get through withdrawal and then through the grieving process first, then you can really start to feel better.

Are you taking care of yourself? Are you eating, sleeping, and exercising? What kinds of activities are you doing so you fill up your time?
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/21/11 12:18 AM
If you stay truly out of contact (no sight, email, phone...including texting) and keep minimal intermediary messages going back and forth you will feel better sooner than if you don't follow that part of the plan.
No peeking on facebook or any other venue.

It IS the hardest thing to do emotionally. It is going against your own desire to be with the spouse you love.

As you stand up for yourself though, your self respect is healing. Very healing.

The children need a fairly calm, strong parent to lean on.

The fracturing of a family is tough on kids but modeling self respect and being open to someday working with a spouse to rebuild a family is powerful in the face of the situation.
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/21/11 12:25 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
So to all the vets, at what point do you feel comfortable with basically ripping a huge part of you away? That to me is what plan b feels like. Dont get me wrong, I think I'm doing the best thing for me. It is definitely harder than anything I've ever done.

How long does it take for you to get to the point of acceptance? I do think I'm doing fairly well for someone still in love with a WW, but can't say that I waver from thinking that this is about me to the idea that this is what will bring my wife back from fantasy island.

Do I really believe that she'll come down out of the clouds? At this point I still hope she will. I also know that either way I'll be okay but I can't help thinking about the impact of this situation on my daughter. I also find that in my limited, very limited, circle, they don't understand what a BS goes through.

Anyways, I guess I'll end my venting session for now.

I've never done Plan B but I do know had I known about it in my situation it would have alleviated a HUGE amount of pain.

Scotty has it right, it's important that you take care of YOU.

You have it right that most people IRL don't understand the pain, until it happens to them.

It also bites that the children suffer but it's not because you're in Plan B, it's because of the choices their mom has made. If anything, you are protecting them from further pain by removing yourself from her drama.

I'm so sorry you're hurting.

It will get better.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/21/11 12:31 AM
As far as DD goes, I never really let her know how things have affected me. Well, I take that back. She has on a couple of occasions asked, "daddy, what's wrong?" but that's been a while ago.

You say I need to "get" my mind to stop thinking about her. I try really hard to do this. I really do. The problem for me is not having a support system of friends and family around. I'm here it seems on an island all by myself. I grew up in Texas and now live in Indiana.

I don't really have any close friends or old classmates to hang out with. I became a minister 3 yrs after I moved here and those I associated with were proven to not be real friends. It's since been tough to find people who have similar beliefs and interests. Most are so driven by booze and clubbing and smoking weed and everything else that goes with it. I just refuse to surround myself with that.

Yes, I'm eating as best I can. I'm sleeping okay. I usually get out daily, weather permitting, and walk and listen to music for an hour or two. I spend a lot of time on my keyboard working on learning jazz. I spend lots of time reading and studying the bible. I spend a lot of time on here reading stories and so on. I watch DVDs (I can't afford cable and I've watched what I have about 100 times).

On the negative side, I spend pretty much all my time alone. With my financial situation, I have to conserve gas so I don't go many places. Not many people call me so I don't really converse with anyone regularly, actually hardly ever. At the end of the day, I don't have much else to do.
Posted By: Grace4me Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/21/11 03:54 PM
Hey Mark,

How are you today? CV and I are praying for you and your family. Keep your eyes on Christ.

Grace
Mark, I am in tbe same situation as you. I have started plan b with no support other than myself and this board. I have joined some groups online but its slowly becoming evident that my money situation will not allow me to participate with most of their meetups. For both of us, I pray we can find the strength to get through this and that we find some support soon.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/21/11 06:21 PM
Grace, I'm doing fairly well. The weekends can tend to be particularly tough when you are extremely lonely and broke. I've managed this long so I'm sure I'll continue to gain strength from God to make it.

Tired, yeah, it really sucks to know that what will help is out of reach due to finances. I just want to go and do things but I can't. Gas has to be saved along with the little money I have.

Don't get me wrong, I love all the support that has been gained through this site, but it does nothing to replace the need for human interaction.

Grace, our situations are so eerily similar from the dates of the affairs to the not really knowing what Plan A was all about. I think I did a lot of LBing throughout this but there's not much I can do about it now.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/22/11 02:39 AM
Mark, you could get some movies from the library.
Posted By: My4Loves Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/22/11 03:00 AM
Mark - You are doing great!!! I can see it in your posts. I would definitely pick up some hobbies. The YMCA may even give you a very low rate for a membership.

Maybe see if there are festivals and such happening around your area.

The summer will be really busy also with BBQ's and swimming.

Don't let your body be still. Keep very busy!!!

Cheers Tough~
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/22/11 12:49 PM
Scotland, the library does seem to be a viable option for movies, so thanks.

IITL, your ideas present challenges. I live on the deep south side of town and the YMCA is on the deep north side of town. It would cause me to use a lot of gas to regularly utilize it and can't afford that. Also, I had a membership there last year and the rate is reasonable but still one that I can't afford.

There are many festivals in our area but I'll have to drive to all the surrounding towns to attend. Again that's a problem right now.

I also understand that BBQ's will be plenty but who's BBQ's will I go to. I have NO family here other than her family. I don't really have any friends as I stated in a previous post so I'm not sure that will do me any good.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/22/11 01:15 PM
So WW and DD will not be going to their church today and DD sent message that I'm to pick her up from WW's apartment. This greatly bothers me for a couple of reason.

1) I hate that WW finds it necessary to go to another church because i believe the pressure of what she is doing is too evident and most there have an idea about what she's doing.

2) Our agreement was that I would pick her up either from church or from the home of DD's other grandmother (not really her grandmother but it seems like she is) who lives next door to the church.

I replied that I would only pick her up from one of those two places. Was I wrong to do that?

DD replied that mommy is not going all the way over there. Now I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. I dont want to reply to DD's text and use her as an IM. I don't want to ask her to relay the message that those are the places we agreed and there are no other options. I don't want to go to pick up daughter at WW's apartment giving her an opportunity to set me back. What do I do?
Posted By: My4Loves Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/22/11 02:54 PM
Mark - Are your agreements contractual? You need to get some legal help in order to establish boundaries for your children. I know it will cost money, and you may need a second job. Until you have something legal, she will break the rules and do everything according to her.

I strongly encourage you to go out of your comfort zone and meet people. You are going to need friends to help you through this. Try some activties at your church, or go to seveal churches if you have to find activities.

In another couple months the lonliness may begin to make you feel awful. You will need to be proactive today.

Without support I would be concerned for your mental health. You mentioned you are close to your pastor. Seek out his advice and leadership. I would start there and see where it takes you.

First things first - you have to setup visitation and CS through the courts.

Tough~
Posted By: Kirby Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/22/11 03:06 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
So WW and DD will not be going to their church today and DD sent message that I'm to pick her up from WW's apartment. . . .

I replied that I would only pick her up from one of those two places. Was I wrong to do that?

DD replied that mommy is not going all the way over there. Now I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. I dont want to reply to DD's text and use her as an IM. . . .

What do I do?

You messed up when you responded to your DD's first text and discussed transportation arrangements. It is totally inappropriate for a child to be involved in adult decisions/discussions.

You should have responded to your DD and told her that you love her and any discussion about transportation has to be between the grown-ups. Right now, your DD feels responsibility that she should not have. Don't do this again.

If it's not too late, send your DD a text and tell her that you were wrong to discussion transportation and that needs to be only between the adults.

Next, you need to get in touch with your IM and have your IM tell your WW what you are willing to do.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/22/11 05:19 PM
Iitl, I know what you mean but I have been by myself for 7 months now. It's just something I have to deal with. Also, visitation and cd has been set through the courts. The terms of my plan b have not. We started the drop off point about 2 months ago when I initially did the modified plan b. It has worked well until today she decides she doesn't want to do it.

Kirby, although I didn't say it quite as harsh as I did here, I did say it. I only responded because WW has stated that she will not utilize the IM unless she has a court order to do so.

It's so funny because after my failed attempt at plan a using the jokes thru email and goodnight texts, she went and asked for a hearing to have provisional agreement modified to say that I couldn't contact her through email, or text. The hearing is june 2nd. I've given her what she wants the courts to do and it's not good enough. What does she want?

The message has been sent thru the IM and I expect her to not respond. If she does not want to utilize this form of communication, will this hurt me or her? It's not like I'm not communicating. I'm just not doing it on her terms.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/22/11 05:40 PM
The message I sent to IM simply said,

Please let WW know that picking up DD at her apartment just isn't healthy for me right now and that she should continue utilizing the drop off points that were put in place.

I think that was pretty accurate. What do you guys think?
Posted By: Kirby Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/22/11 05:42 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
. . . . she went and asked for a hearing to have provisional agreement modified to say that I couldn't contact her through email, or text. The hearing is june 2nd. . . .

How on earth does she expect to communicate? No court will agree that verbal only is reasonable. Lawyers and judges like to have things written down. Is she expecting you to contact her by snail mail?

What she's asking for is NOT going to fly in court (unless she has a restraining order against you). I'm surprised that her attorney would even let her ask for that. However, you will not get approval to only communicate through an IM. That's pretty unusual and the judge might think you were odd to request it.

What some people do is have the IM send and receive emails, but they write the email so that it appears to have come from the BS. It would be pretty easy to do. You just set up a new email address and send it to her. Block her from your old email. Give the addy and password to your IM. The IM can read emails and send any important information to your regular email address. When you respond, the IM can write the email from the special address.
Posted By: Kirby Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/22/11 05:47 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
The message I sent to IM simply said,

Please let WW know that picking up DD at her apartment just isn't healthy for me right now and that she should continue utilizing the drop off points that were put in place.

I think that was pretty accurate. What do you guys think?

The information is correct, but the IM should not give WW any information about you. Not even that it "isn't healthy" for you to go to her apartment. Your IM should merely say:

Originally Posted by IM
Marksaysay will not be picking up DD at WW's apartment at this time. He is available to pick up DD at <address of pickup point>.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/22/11 06:04 PM
Kirby, I didn't think it was reasonable either. Neither of us have lawyers so that idea was all her doing. She is just so confused right now, it's amazing. She did try to get a restraining order but dropped it because she knew there were no grounds. Our provisional just states that neither party can harass the other. I don't think in any way my jokes and goodnight texts were harassment.

I like the idea of the second email address. As a matter of fact, I already have one. I will make my IM aware of the pertinent info so that he can start using it. Good idea.

Also, the only reason I sent the text about the drop off point is WW usually has dd text me when she is at the drop off. She was probably told to send me the message that said to pick her up at WW's apartment. That's why I responded the way I did.
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/22/11 07:29 PM
Use your IM. Use your IM. Use your IM.

Only your IM. (or an exception....your attorney)

Nothing in the messages thru IM other than facts.
child at time/date/place.
child ___________(important health issue/behavior issue such as school trouble or trouble with the law/activity planned like trip outta town)

financial issues that a lawyer can't address

That is it.

Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/22/11 07:33 PM
Originally Posted by reading
Use your IM. Use your IM. Use your IM.

That is it.

What do you do when WW will not respond to IM as she has stated? Also, how was I supposed to respond to the text received by DD?
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/22/11 07:37 PM
Ignore WW. If she doesn't have any other venue to you....she will use an IM.

Texts from DD......hmmmmm.......ask DD to text IM next time it is an issue about pick up or drop off or anything other than "Luv U Dad" "Night XXXOOO" "Miss you"

Put the number for IM in dd's cell and tell IM they may get a text from her.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/22/11 08:52 PM
Originally Posted by Kirby
Originally Posted by IM
Marksaysay will not be picking up DD at WW's apartment at this time. He is available to pick up DD at <address of pickup point>.

That's almost exactly what was put through.

Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/22/11 10:48 PM
Good work CV. I figured that Mark could count on you.

Mark, ALL WS's refuse to use the IMs at first. Eventually, they get with the program. They have to.

Please, don't use your DD as an IM. Explain the IM to your DD. Tell her that you communicate through someone else. That when you need to tell Mommy something, you will send it through the email and your WW will do the same. Hopefully, your WW will stop using your child as an IM.

Make it clear to the courts that you refuse to send messages through your DD as you believe it to be harmful to her. That you have found someone who will communicate with your WW on your behalf. Explain that your intent is to use the IM as a filter only and that all pertinent info will go through him.

My WH refused to use the IM at first too, now, he uses them whenever he needs to communicate things. Does he use them for frivolous things? Dunno, my IM is really good. I trust her completely and it allows me to focus on my own healing.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/22/11 10:56 PM
I kinda figured that she would be adamantly against it. The thing that somewhat bothers me today is the fact that she refused to use the dropoff point so that I could have my time with daughter today. Daughter usually sends a text when she is there for me to pickup. No text came today.

Who does this look worse for me, for refusing to break plan b and go to WW's apartment, or WW for trying to force me to do that and refusing to drop DD off today.

I have chatted with DD today so all was not lost. I also told her that I was at her play. She didn't believe me until I told her what she was wearing and what she did in the play. I know you all will probably kill for having gone but i didn't break NC.
Posted By: Kirby Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/22/11 11:27 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Who does this look worse for me, for refusing to break plan b and go to WW's apartment, or WW for trying to force me to do that and refusing to drop DD off today.

It depends. What kind of agreement do you have right now?

If you were divorced and had a written custody agreement that spelled everything out, and WW refused to drop off at the agreed upon location, then she would be guilty of custodial interference. If she did that enough times, it could be grounds for a change of custody.

I am divorced and my agreement is very specific. It says where and when pickups/drop-offs are to occur. It says who is supposed to provide transportation. In highly contentious divorces or where there is a restraining order, pickups and drop-offs are often done in a neutral location.

If a judge were to review the situation, I don't think he would have a problem with a neutral location. If you have an agreement about where pickups/drop-offs are to occur and you WW has been willing to use that location in the past, and she then reneged on the agreement, then she is at fault. Not you.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/23/11 12:37 AM
All you vets, what do you all think about me revisiting the pickup/dropoff arrangements through my IM? It's something that we've been doing for a while so I don't understand why she wouldn't do it today.

If I do this, I will have something in writing via email that will back me up if she ever tries to this again. How should I word it?
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/30/11 02:10 PM
Nothing really new to report. Just wanted to drop in and say that things are going okay as far as I'm concerned. I still do have thoughts about my WW but i guess after 11 years, it's hard for them to simply go away. I continue to pray daily that things will work out according to Gods plan.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/30/11 06:13 PM
Take care of yourself and stay dark.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/01/11 01:17 AM
So here I am, a couple of days away from our next court appearance, a provisional modification hearing to get me to stop contacting her (prior to plan b) and to get the judge to censor me and what I tell our DD. She took my attempt at plan a from a distance via morning jokes through email and good night texts as threatening. WT_? How well do you think that will go over?
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/01/11 12:31 PM
Do you have copies of the emails and texts that you sent?

Stay calm.
Posted By: My4Loves Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/01/11 12:34 PM
Just document everything you have been experiencing. Save texts, emails, and maybe get a character reference from your pastor.

My suggestion is to make sure your lawyer knows everything that is happening and your wishes and CS and visitation are stated to him clearly. You want him going in and fighting hard for you.

Good luck! Tough~
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/01/11 12:55 PM
Scotty, I have the emails but not the texts. I don't know how to get them off my phone.

IITL, neither of us have lawyers. I will be the one stating my case. I don't want this but she is so far out there it's unreal. I almost want to double check and see if WW and strugglingaz are not the same person. They sound just alike.

I don't think her request for me to end contact with her will go well. Nor do I think her request to have me censored will go through. Actually, the judge cannot tell me what I can tell DD or how to raise her. It really doesn't matter to me what he says.

She said she also wants to change to have visitation guidelines meet state requirements. If she goes there, would that be the time to make known my desire for full custody? I really just want 50/50 but it doesn't hurt to shoot for the moon. If I make it known, do judges usually ask why? If so, would her adulterous living be my reason to limit her maternal influence?
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/01/11 01:33 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Scotty, I have the emails but not the texts. I don't know how to get them off my phone.

Forward them to your e-mail.. just like you would forward a text.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/01/11 01:52 PM
I can send some but it says it can't send the ones with special features. I can't send the profanity laced ones from her. I think they are too long.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/01/11 02:05 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
I can send some but it says it can't send the ones with special features. I can't send the profanity laced ones from her. I think they are too long.

That's cuz you're using a mac! cool AT&T, right?
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/01/11 02:11 PM
http://www.iphone-sms.com/

Backing up sms to a pc.
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/01/11 02:36 PM
I suppose you can use the actual phone to document texts too?
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/01/11 06:23 PM
So I think I have all but decided that I'm going to let it all hang out tomorrow in court if WW does what she says about changing visitation and trying to censor me (which is proof that she's doing something that's not right).

I have email copies of texts where she threatened to keep daughter away, where she was verbally abusive, where she tried to use daughter to do something other than what she claimed, proof of infidelity prior to and after filing divorce, others who have witnessed and been victims of her verbal abuse, and I am going to ask for full custody. I've also got several emails from over several months where she says she will no longer argue/cuss at me which is proof that she never stopped.

I think I can build a great case for how unstable it will be for our daughter to grow up in that environment.

What do you guys think? Wouldn't that be one heck of a wakeup call?
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/01/11 10:40 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
So I think I have all but decided that I'm going to let it all hang out tomorrow in court if WW does what she says about changing visitation and trying to censor me (which is proof that she's doing something that's not right).

I have email copies of texts where she threatened to keep daughter away, where she was verbally abusive, where she tried to use daughter to do something other than what she claimed, proof of infidelity prior to and after filing divorce, others who have witnessed and been victims of her verbal abuse, and I am going to ask for full custody. I've also got several emails from over several months where she says she will no longer argue/cuss at me which is proof that she never stopped.

I think I can build a great case for how unstable it will be for our daughter to grow up in that environment.

What do you guys think? Wouldn't that be one heck of a wakeup call?

Any thoughts guys?
Posted By: MrWondering Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/01/11 10:54 PM
You intend to cross petition for full custody and take a stab at it in court tomorrow during HER petition to censure you and seek a custody arrangement to her liking?????

That's crazy sounding.

You see...this is why men lose in divorce/family court. They say things like "I don't care what the judge says...I'll do or say whatever I please to my daughter/wife, etc".

I know you haven't said anything like that to the judge...YET...but that attitude WILL filter through and I guarantee you the judge will take that impression and rule against you. If you think you can roll into court and get the judge to give you whatever you want because it's OBVIOUSLY the right thing to do...you are in for a surprise.

I admit I haven't read through this whole thread. Just a couple posts. You CAN admit your actual cell phone into evidence allowing the judge to read her text messages to you (better make sure there's nothing bad on the phone that they can use against you).

As an attorney myself...I think your children are important enough for you to get an attorney to fight for you/them, however, if not you are basically throwing yourself at the mercy of the court (which is usually the case anyway). You can't get mad (at the judge OR your wife and trust me the judge will be watching you closely). You must seemingly bow respectively to the judge's authority. First impressions are so important. The judge must see a calm and rational man that isn't flying off the handle emotionally and seems to only care about the children's best interests (and NOT getting a pound of his soon to be ex-wife's flesh).

I fear countering her petition will make you appear vindictive, which in turn makes you appear controlling and angry. Courts don't like controlling and angry fathers. If the judge "censures" you...you should humbly accept his "censure" and apologize to the judge and promise not to do it again. You CAN oppose her motion for censure and state WHY you shouldn't be....but allow the judge the courtesy to make a mistake. He/she doesn't know you or your wife. He sees hundreds if not thousands of these cases per year and USUALLY the mother is right and the father is a jerk. The judge will make his decision about whether you are a jerk or not tomorrow pretty quick (presuming you haven't already been a jerk in front of him before). If you are a jerk...he/she won't rule in your favor. If you are not a jerk...he/she will give you a chance. The "LAW" matters a heck of a lot less than you think.

I've got a document you should read....email me.

Mr. Wondering, JD, LLM in Taxation (meaning I am a tax attorney so not a litigation expert)
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/01/11 11:33 PM
I would never directly tell the judge what's on my mind. It doesn't mean I won't be thinking it. What she is trying to do is keep me from ever telling anymore truths about her to our daughter because she found out I exposed to daughter. She is also trying to change our parenting plan because I refused to just allow her to not let me see daughter for 3 weeks (She had dd week before mother's day, wanted her mother's day weekend, and wouldn't change her weekend-initially-to allow me to have her the weekend after mother's day).

I understand that it is the right thing to do, but why shouldn't i do it. She's trying to change things so why can't I?
Posted By: Kirby Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/01/11 11:39 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
I think I can build a great case for how unstable it will be for our daughter to grow up in that environment.

What do you guys think? Wouldn't that be one heck of a wakeup call?

Bless your heart, you have no idea.

Judges don't care about infidelity. Unless your stbxw is having sex in front of your daughter, the infidelity doesn't matter.

Verbal abuse is standard procedure during divorce. The judge will assume that it's been back and forth between the two of you for years and won't care.

If you have emails from her saying that she will not longer argue/cuss, the judge will see that she is making an attempt to do the right thing. Points for your wife.

I have no idea what you meant when you said, "I'm going to let it all hang out," but I suspect that you're planning to go in there with an attitude and act like an arrogant jerk. If that's what you're going to do, you'll be lucky to get every other weekend.

Hon, I'm on another forum where most of the members are dealing with an ex-spouse or ex-girlfriend who is mentally ill. We're talking bi-polar or severe personality disorders. They still can't get sole custody. One woman's 9yo step-daughter lost 10 pounds during a 10-day visit with the mentally ill mother. They still don't have supervised visitation. With another family it took an attempted murder/suicide for the father to get sole custody.

Dude, you've got NOTHING.
Posted By: MrWondering Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/01/11 11:44 PM
Well I'm not there in your state looking over your documents and filings....but it sounds like SHE petitioned the court (made a motion) for changes she wanted. The way it would work is you'd go in and dispute that motion and win/lose that motion. THEN, next week...when you are prepared and have all your documentation lined up...YOU file a motion/petition for a modification of custody order.

I fear if you go in an argue for the judge to give you full custody during HER motion for censure the judge may just grant her order and view you forever after as a loose canon.

You job tomorrow is to defeat her motions. That's it. You are on defense. Later...you file your own motion and go on the offensive. The adage "the best defense is a good offense" doesn't work for men well in family court.

Patience.

Work the judge.

You are the calm rational objective parent and your wife is the nutty one wasting the judges time filing "censure" motions and the like. You sit back and play the nice guy and allow your wayward wife to shoot her case in the foot.

Mr. Wondering
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/02/11 08:50 PM
So we had the provisional modification hearing today. Nothing major happened that surprised me. WW wanted to change to state guidelines for visitation instead of sticking with our previously decided plan. She talked about our communication bringing up the emails and texts I'd sent during my plan a from a distance. I did bring up that I had a problem with modifying how we are to communicate because one day she wants it and on others she doesn't. The judge said he would make a ruling on those issues in a week or so.

The interesting thing was when she brought up not wanting our issues to be discussed with daughter, the judge asked why i felt it necessary. I simply said I thought daughter should know the truth about why her family has been torn apart. He said he didn't agree and that it should've waited until she was older.

I told him I didn't explain WW infidelity in terms other than those that she would understand. I hear a gasp from WW followed by "You told her?" I just shook my head, yes. I then look over a few minutes later and see tears streaming down WW's face. I didn't really feel bad about that. I just didn't expect that. I don't know if those emotions from WW were good or bad but it is what it is.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/03/11 02:34 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
The interesting thing was when she brought up not wanting our issues to be discussed with daughter, the judge asked why i felt it necessary. I simply said I thought daughter should know the truth about why her family has been torn apart. He said he didn't agree and that it should've waited until she was older.

I told him I didn't explain WW infidelity in terms other than those that she would understand. I hear a gasp from WW followed by "You told her?" I just shook my head, yes. I then look over a few minutes later and see tears streaming down WW's face. I didn't really feel bad about that. I just didn't expect that. I don't know if those emotions from WW were good or bad but it is what it is.

I can't get the picture out of my head of WW's face with the continuous stream of tears flowing down her face. I really think that daughter knowing she was unfaithful really crushed her. I can't say that I don't hope somehow that that will have some type of positive effect on her.
Posted By: My4Loves Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/03/11 02:44 AM
I am really nervous with you not having a lawyer. I really don't feel you are fully protected. Can you file another motion and seek to get at least 50/50 going for your daughter?

In the meantime, can you up your visits, phone contact, and other options for your daughter. I think going full force in contact will help your 50/50 chances.

Good Luck Tough~
Posted By: MrWondering Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/03/11 03:14 AM
Sounds to me like an act in front of the judge. The judge agreed with her, she's in the middle of HER petition to get the judge to give her something and she's got you saying you told her. My bet is she already knew but ACTING shocked made her case that much stronger.

Think about it...if she truly cared about her kid(s) she wouldn't be filing for divorce and/or having an affair in the first place.

The better answer would have been that you've been doing a lot of reading and many prominent psychologists believe that telling the children the truth about their lives in an age appropriate manner is the only way to handle these situations. Then offer to provide documentation of such experts supporting your beliefs. If you judge thinks it's wrong...you apologize and just indicate you are doing the best you know how FOR YOUR CHILDREN and appreciate the judge's input.

Mr. Wondering
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/03/11 10:42 AM
Originally Posted by MrWondering
Sounds to me like an act in front of the judge. The judge agreed with her, she's in the middle of HER petition to get the judge to give her something and she's got you saying you told her. My bet is she already knew but ACTING shocked made her case that much stronger.

Think about it...if she truly cared about her kid(s) she wouldn't be filing for divorce and/or having an affair in the first place.

The better answer would have been that you've been doing a lot of reading and many prominent psychologists believe that telling the children the truth about their lives in an age appropriate manner is the only way to handle these situations. Then offer to provide documentation of such experts supporting your beliefs. If you judge thinks it's wrong...you apologize and just indicate you are doing the best you know how FOR YOUR CHILDREN and appreciate the judge's input.

Mr. Wondering

I agree that I should have used a professional's opinion as the basis for my argument but I totally disagree with the fact that it was an act. She was trying to get the "gag order" to keep me from telling daughter about her infidelity not knowing that I'd already told her. Aside from that, there is really nothing more to tell. She was really and truly crushed.

Also, you say if she cared for DD, she wouldn't be doing these things. But don't most waywards only think about themselves? She has stated from the beginning that this is all about her.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/03/11 12:38 PM
But Mark, that's the point MrW is trying to make. Your WW really doesn't care about her DD, just as every other WS.

You can't turn back time, but MrW realy does make some valid points. And if you are going to represent yourself, you are going to do a lot better. Have you done any research? All of your spare time should be spent finding out a way to get more time with your DD. Or are you satisfied with what you have now?

Have you even gone onto the divorcing section on this site? On any site? I am sure that there are sites out there with forums for legal problems. While the people may not be lawyers, they may know a lot and be able to help guide you.

I don't want to beat you down so you give up, I want you to get angry enough to FIGHT. This is a WAR. You are trying to save your DD from a horrible life. Your DD is at great risk of suffering from many horrible things if your WW continues down this destructive path.

To be honest, I agree with MrW about the "show" your WW put on. She already knew, and you can bet that she is coaching your DD. You're going to need to see your WW for what she really is and that is WAYWARD. The woman you married is long gone.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/04/11 12:58 AM
So our pastor called my WW last night to see how she was doing after what happened. She told him she had been telling her friends that she had possibly been too hasty in making her decision to divorce but the hurt from what I told our daughter was too much to overcome.

She said that she just wished that we could have been able to sit down and talk about things. I told him that was nonsense. I tried to talk to her but she only wanted to point out my faults. She also would escalate the conversations even after repeated requests to talk civilly. She even turned down the last request to simply have a cup of coffee together.

She knows where I stand. She knows I'm willing to deal with my part in our marital breakdown. She knows I take full responsibility in whatever I did or didn't do. She knows that the option for reconciliation is a available. She knows I still love her.

At this point, the balks in her court. If she wants to come back to the marriage, she's gonna have to make an effort. I've done all I'm gonnado until she decides. If not, although I don't want the divorce, it will become a reality if it depends on me.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/04/11 01:03 AM
All very typical wayward statements from her. And, if you are in a true Plan B, you should ask the pastor not to talk to you about her anymore. You shouldn't be hearing anything about her.

Have you read any of the threads about exposure and read that MOST waywards say things like, "I was going to work it out with you, but since you told so and so, I am done." TYPICAL
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/13/11 09:35 PM
I haven't been here in a while so I thought I'd post an update. I found out yesterday from my WW's cousin that their family is tired of our ordeal but also they are somewhat upset with me for exposing my wife. She told me that if I wanted my wife back, exposing her is not the way to go because it has done nothing but make her mad and push her farther away.

She also told me that I need to not be vindictive and hateful, but loving and passionate. I simply told her that those things have been done and that I'm sorry they didn't like finding out about WW. I said if she's mad, it's because what she's doing is no longer a secret. She says that I need to stop trying to make my wife look bad. My response was simply that I told the truth and if the truth hurts, then she has the option to stop doing those things.

Im really most bothered, I guess, by the fact that they feel more inclined to just overlook her actions and point the finger at me. But I guess I really should t be surprised. Blood is thicker than water as they say.
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/13/11 10:33 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
my WW's cousin that their family is tired of our ordeal but also they are somewhat upset with me for exposing my wife.


The cousin says they are tired of the ordeal?
Ha! They are not in the thick of it like you are in 'tired of it'.
Sheesh.

They are upset about the WW being exposed?
Ha! Not as upset as you for having something like this TO expose.

That the cousin is making it about them is sad. So sad.

But. It is what it is.

You did the right thing speaking the truth to all. Whether they agree of not. Now they know the truth. Better than being kept in the dark. All around.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/14/11 12:01 PM
Yeah, I know I did the right thing. I actually wrote the same family member to which I exposed, in essence, a plan b letter. I just told them I'm sorry they felt the way they do about my exposure but my intent was not to hurt or embarrass my WW. It was with the hope that enough of them would care enough about my family to speak out against what she was doing and cause her to stop long enough to consider what she was doing to our family.

I told them that I still loved them all, that I appreciated all the love they've shown me over the years and I hoped the best for them in the future. I ended with this, "I guess what I'm really saying to you all is goodbye. Maybe if God decides to do a spiritual heart transplant on my ww, it's just so long for now. Who know. God bless you all"
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/14/11 11:53 PM
Wow! I get yet another response from a different member of WW's family. It said that WW knows right and wrong and that it is not their responsibility to point out her mistakes.

I've never seen so many people, most if not all are christians, who would much rather watch a loved one fall than to try to steer them in a different direction. I know that nothing they say is guaranteed to do anything but not of them are even willing to try. That is so sad.

It's almost like they have left her out on a limb all by herself. If she falls, she falls. If she doesn't, she doesn't.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/15/11 12:42 AM
Most people are cowards. And cowards always take the easy way out. I don't know how they live with themselves. Can't control what other people do, but you can control how you react to it. You're doing a good job. Just don't do anything that will let them be able to say, "See, he really is a nut-job." As long as you hold yourself up to a higher standard, you can live with yourself. That is the most important thing. No one stood up to my WH either. Although, most of the people in the family have had affairs themselves, so..... Stay strong.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/15/11 01:45 AM
As I thought about this even more, I became troubled and hopeful all at the same time. Troubled because if everyone has this type of mindset with my WW, they will probably not try to steer her in a better direction either. It really saddened me to think about it that way, but it seems to be reality.

I became hopeful because I would like the opportunity to be there to say something when no one else will, if DD is making a mistake. I can still do it if the divorce happens but it won't be the same as if I was there everyday. There would probably be things that happen that I would never even hear about. I already have to remind her to say her grace when she's with me. That very rarely happened prior to all of this. And yes, that nay be just a small thing but, as she grows, there will be more of a need to have consistent, positive influence in her life.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/15/11 02:38 PM
I was thinking last night about this whole situation. We've been separated for 8 months and have been going through the divorce process for 7. I seem to be at the point where I just want to say the heck with mediation and just go to the court requesting that we just dissolve this marriage and move on. I really don't care about the material things we've yet to resolve. I don't care about nothing else other than simply moving on with my life.

As long as I stay married, I won't date and get the opportunity to actually feel the companionship and love that we all desire. As long as she is still my wife, I will have strong emotional tie that keeps me so hopeful that things will turn around. How can I solve that? By taking the step that means she is no longer my wife.

I can financially rebuild since we both came into our relationship with nothing. I can rebound from all of the hurt and frustrations that this ordeal has caused me. I can rise above this.

There are roughly about 2 more months left before our divorce will be final and I really don't see her changing. I feel like I should just expedite the process and move on. I've never given up on anything in life. My name, Mark, actually means "mighty warrior". Lord knows I have put up a valiant effort for my family. Sometimes you just have to take Kenny Rogers advice and "know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em". My mind tells me that a fold may be in order.
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/15/11 06:20 PM
My thoughts.

Just continue onward as you have planned and consider that changing your mindset to getting it over with will do nothing additionally positive for you.

In two months, you will be divorced if you continue on this path and mediate as you planned previously.

Why switch gears when it is just an emotional whim? Trying to get it over to be free?

If she doesn't change pre-finalization of the divorce.....you will be free to move on and be in the exact same place you otherwise would be if you said "Let's end it this second".

Just consider that the emotions you are feeling right now are positive for you.
You are recovering. Your desire to just move on is a plus for you. You are less needy of WW. Yay.

Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/15/11 06:48 PM
Originally Posted by reading
My thoughts.

Just continue onward as you have planned and consider that changing your mindset to getting it over with will do nothing additionally positive for you.

I don't know. I just really want it to be over. I think it will allow me to move on sooner. I saw her with OM this past weekend (a first) and it didn't feel good. I just kept thinking, "That's my wife!" I didn't do anything violent but I can't say I didn't want to. I just feel was no longer my wife, I wouldn't still feel quite the same.

Just consider that the emotions you are feeling right now are positive for you.
You are recovering. Your desire to just move on is a plus for you. You are less needy of WW. Yay.

I'm not sure they are positive. I think they are part anger, part frustration, part indifference (to a degree) and many other things. Positive? I don't know.
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/15/11 07:01 PM
I suspect you will STILL see her around town with OM even if the divorce finalizes.
It would STILL hurt.

Unless you move away from her......well.......you are going to still deal with her and the betrayel.

It isn't going to be over unless you never see or hear from her again for the rest of your life BUT you have a child and that is not totally likely. Even in a dark plan B....you will have hearsay about her.

It sucks.

Yes you are angry and frustrated and so many things. You are a person. People gets these feelings. We do.

You aren't alone and we are here for you. We understand what you are feeling and going through.

Stay the course. Build your strength.

You WILL handle it all whatever happens from here
divorce today
divorce two months from now
or the off chance miracle of marital recovery.

Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/15/11 08:14 PM
I think you're right. It will still hurt whether it's over today or 2 months from today. I guess this is just a part of the roller coaster ride for the BS.

I was also wondering what you all might think about the fact that three different members of WW's family have contacted me since Saturday regarding my exposure. Keep in mind exposure was well over a month ago. One just said that exposure is not the way to get my wife back. It just makes her madder. One said it's not her place to say anything. WW is a grown woman who knows right from wrong and will make her own decisions. The third simply said that she'd been busy without a chance to respond but she would be willing to talk and allow me to speak with her husband of 17 yrs.

It's funny that I'm all of a sudden, I'm getting all of this attention. Is this normal? Is this a sign that the pressure of my WW's actions might atleast prompt the family to say something? Just odd that all of this attention is coming now.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/16/11 12:34 AM
This is why we say that you need to let exposure do its work. This is what happens. It's quite normal.

I agree with Reading, what will waiting the two months do to harm you? And it will still hurt to see your WW with OM. Heck, it would hurt to see her with anyone. And I really think that that was your Taker talking. He wanted to get you moved on, but it takes time. I hope that you let yourself heal before you jump into dating, after the D of course.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/17/11 11:05 AM
Guys, I wanted let you all know that I've decided that after today, I will no longer be visiting the site. I've pledged to remove all talk, discussions, and reminders of my wife and my situation from my mind.

I really appreciate all the support and advice I've been given. At this point, the only thing I can do is wait. With that being the case, this site sometimes causes me to think about things in a way that doesn't help me. It has been extremely therapeutic for the most part, but right now it keeps me in the past, thinking about my wife, my impending divorce and everything.

After today, the next time you hear from me will be to tell you about either our reconciliation or the finalization of the divorce. Again, you guys have been so helpful and I appreciate you all.
Posted By: jessitaylor Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/17/11 11:22 AM
good luck and remember we are here for you any time.......we all understand your pain and disappointment
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/17/11 03:55 PM
Thanks. The pain is there still after 8 months but it is beginning to subside. I anticipate there will still be some there 2 months down the road if everything goes as is currently scheduled. So why not just wait it out, as Reading suggested, and see what happens.

As far as disappointment goes, it's there too. No one gets married thinking of divorce. There is, also with me, the disappointment of not being able to do what I set out to do, break he cycle of divorce in both our families and show people that marriage can last in spite of the major challenges that arise. I wanted to show my daughter something different than divorce.

I know I can't control that. I also know that it's not over yet so there is still a chance, however small it is. I just feel that posting here and reading everyday doesnt help me take my mind of things. That's why I've decided to leave until something happens. I will finish out the day, as if to say my goodbyes, but after today, I won't return until I'm divorced or beginning reconciliation.

I am grateful for all that everyone has done and said.

God bless

Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/18/11 12:52 AM
Take care of yourself and that DD. You are always welcome back. You may even be able to help others someday.

Whoever you have a new relationship with in the future, I hope you use MB to get the marriage you deserve.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/18/11 01:12 AM
Originally Posted by Scotland
Take care of yourself and that DD. You are always welcome back. You may even be able to help others someday.

Whoever you have a new relationship with in the future, I hope you use MB to get the marriage you deserve.

Thanks scotland. I'll do the best I can.

And as far as my future relationship, MB is a must. I'm a firm believer in the concepts. HNHN was an eye opener. I have actually lent it out twice since I read it, most recently to a coworker who gets married next month.

Sometimes the lessons we learn have to come at a cost, but that doesn't make them worthless. As the saying goes, you learn from your mistakes.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 07/07/11 02:27 PM
Well, I guess I've changed my mind.

Since the incident with OM and WW, there has been no more contact. Yesterday was RO hearing and judge said he would rule today. While wife and judge both basically admitted that I was no physical threat to wife, he did say I disturbed her peace by confronting her with the OM. I simply told him that since April, I'd had no contact with her. No phone calls. No emails. No texts. Nothing. The incident was not premeditated nor was I violent. It was just something that truly caught me off guard and since then there has been no contact. I also added that since she filed for the RO, she has invited me to a gathering for our daughter. He asked her, based on the ramifications of the RO, if thats what she really wanted. She said no. She just wanted me to leave her alone (as if I have been pestering her relentlessly).

At this point, I'm not sure I care anymore about what happens. I have stood for the truth. My wife has lied and cheated and tried to manipulate and all sorts of things (I know it's common fog behavior). Right now, while I'm just worrying about me and trying to get my life in order, I still have the hope that i will have enough love left in my heart for her to help her through the difficult days that lie ahead of her due to her waywardness. She WILL fall. It may not be next week or next month or next year, but she will fall. She even lied to the judge yesterday. I didn't comment about it but just made the mental note.

Its funny because nothing really bothers me much anymore. It doesn't bother me that I've been marked as the villain because I know I've tried to do nothing more than stand for the truth. It doesn't bother me that we may be divorced in another couple of months or so because I will be okay regardless of what happens. It doesn't bother me to have some financial struggles because God has sustained me and he's helping me to slowly get that under control. I've started helping my former baseball coach give hitting lessons in the evenings. It's something I can do to earn extra cash while at the same time do something I really and truly love. That's a win win situation.

It's funny but I'm not even bother that someone else is with my wife. She's made that choice and I can't change that. One day she'll come to her senses and realize what she has done. But I take great consolation in the fact that they're not with my wife. He has someone who doesn't even remotely resemble my wife. When the OM came into her life, my wife disappeared. They have no idea what it feels like to be loved by my wife, hasnt ever looked into her eyes and seen her soul, hasn't known the woman who cared about others more than herself. He doesn't know my wife or has he ever met my wife, just someone who looks like her.

Is it possible that that person can return? Yes! She might have some scratches and scars but it's possible. God will be the only one who canbring her back, though. If he wants me to be there when she returns, I will. If he doesn't, I won't.

Oh, yeah. Today is her birthday.
Posted By: freefall Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 07/07/11 04:18 PM
Mark,

Even though you say you don't care, it sounds like you're still hurting and today must be a tough day since it's WW's B-day.

Hold your head up and keep taking care of yourself and your DD.
Sounds like being a hitting coach will be a great activity for you this summer. How are you at football for the fall? lol
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 07/07/11 04:35 PM
I don't know if hurting is the right word. I haven't shed a tear over her or my marriage in a kong time. I have gotten emotionally about how God has been taking care of me throughout this. That is something when you think about all that has gone on, all that I've experienced, and all that I know is down the road.

When I say I don't care, I guess I'm really saying that I know what ever happens is not gonna be because of me. I've come to realize that God is in TOTAL control and what he wants will happen. I just have to accept what he allows whether it be divorce or reconciliation, financial struggles or blessings, etc. That's where I am.

Do I still love my wife? Of course I do but I've reached the point where I understand that love sometimes is just not enough. Am I gonna sit and just wait for her? No! Do I believe she will find rock bottom at some point down the road? Yes! Will I be there when she does? Right now I'd like to be there to offer her a life jacket, but that is one of those uncertainties. I can't guarantee that I will be there.
Posted By: AndyM Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 07/07/11 06:03 PM
marksaysay - You've put into words what I'm feeling right now in your last paragraph. Just wanted to tell you, that there are others feeling the same way. My WW only moved out a couple of weeks ago and I feel that the ultimate resolution is a ways off. That guarantee part is a bit scary, isn't it? After all, at one point this was your best friend and life partner.
Posted By: atena Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 07/07/11 07:07 PM
Quote
Do I believe she will find rock bottom at some point down the road? Yes!
Mark, unfortunately our society prevents many of us from reaching rock bottom and that is not good. If more of us did the pain will help us change our path and will make us better humans.
But there is enough in this world to distract us and entertain us and to make us forget what is really important.
There is also society and the media which promote a behavior that lacks integrity.
Also WS surround themselves with people who preach what they preach and this does not help.
Work on yourself and live your life without her in it.
Blessing


Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 07/09/11 02:36 AM
Originally Posted by reading
I suspect you will STILL see her around town with OM even if the divorce finalizes.
It would STILL hurt.

It sucks.

Yes you are angry and frustrated and so many things. You are a person. People gets these feelings. We do.

You aren't alone and we are here for you. We understand what you are feeling and going through.

Stay the course. Build your strength.

You WILL handle it all whatever happens from here
divorce today
divorce two months from now
or the off chance miracle of marital recovery.

I was just thinking today about the wisdom in these words. I have really gotten the most healthiest state of mind that ive been in a long time. It's mostly the result of having come to realize that I needed to focus on God more and less on my wife. Im starting to realize where true and lasting happiness comes from and it's not from my WW.

I think I'm starting to get to the point where it doesn't matter whether or not she comes back. I didn't think I would ever have those thoughts but they do come more frequently. I don't think it's because my LB is totally empty. I think it's more the realization that I can't control her no matter how morally wrong she chooses to live her life. I can't do anything. That's only something that God can do.

But I think what has given me more comfort than anything is the understanding that God only allows things in our lives that are ultimately meant for our good. He's got a plan for me that will be revealed at some point. The only option I have is to wait. The WW is not under my control. She's not even in control of her own life the way she believes.

I appreciate those words, reading, along with all the other from the countless number of people who've contributed. Mark is on a road to greater things and Im beginning to understand that WW may or may not be a part of those greater things. Either way, I'll be okay.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 07/10/11 12:24 AM
You will still experience the emotional roller coaster ride.
But, you will be stronger in Plan B and build those personal recovery muscles and learn to respect and trust yourself first.

Courage!
You will be able to thrive and be happy again.

Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 07/10/11 11:36 AM
I am feeling stronger. It seems with every passing day, the less I think about what she haw done to me and our family. With every passing day, the less I wonder about "will she ever wakeup out of the fog?". With every passing day, I seem to feel better and better about moving on.

I do question myself about whether or not I should still care. At times I feel like I should and at others I don't. At times I wonder if she would wake up from the fog like wife of strike2 has (an awesome story and I'm rooting for the two of them), would I be like strike and have difficulty accepting her back even though I wanted it for so long. At times I wonder if it would be best to try to reconcile for our DD and others I just don't care.

Yes, it is a rollercoaster. I know I've got a ways to go but things are definitely looking up for me.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 07/14/11 01:01 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Since the incident with OM and WW, there has been no more contact. Yesterday was RO hearing and judge said he would rule today. While wife and judge both basically admitted that I was no physical threat to wife, he did say I disturbed her peace by confronting her with the OM. I simply told him that since April, I'd had no contact with her. No phone calls. No emails. No texts. Nothing. The incident was not premeditated nor was I violent. It was just something that truly caught me off guard and since then there has been no contact. I also added that since she filed for the RO, she has invited me to a gathering for our daughter. He asked her, based on the ramifications of the RO, if thats what she really wanted. She said no. She just wanted me to leave her alone (as if I have been pestering her relentlessly).

Well, I guess I'm in a really dark plan b now. Her RO was granted and it states that I can't have any contact with her for 2 years. The funny thing about that it means she can't contact me either and she's been trying a lot every since the hearing. Even got a message today that was deleted. What's up with that. I really don't believe she really wanted it that way but that's what she's got. And it really does t even bother me.

She has to put on her big girl pants and really deal with it all now. I just sit and think about how far she gone and how she's so unrecognizable any more. I know it's the fog but wow is all I can say. At first I dreaded the outcome but when I read it today, I wasn't even phased. Its not really surprising how I reacted or didn't react. Maybe that really means I've turned a corner.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/11/11 11:26 PM
I didn't realize it's been 2 months since my last post but there is really not much new news. WW is still wayward. I haven't spoke to her at all since June although she has tried through several forms of communication about various things, even though she has a protective order against her crazed (NOT) stbxh. I do still have an occasional bad day but they are not very frequent.

One interesting thing though is that I returned to my old church, our old church since the pastor told me WW hadn't attended in 3 months. I've been back now for about a month and MIL, who has gone there her whole life, called and asked the pastor what he thought about my return.

His simply replied that there is nothing to think about. Her daughter doesnt attend and he continued to be a contributing member even in his 3 month absence. She then says that I just did it to aggravate her daughter but he told her that I couldn't aggravate someone who's not there.

She then started to talk about all that I had done, specifically my exposure, and how I never tried to fix the situation and how her daughter can't be around me because they don't know what I might do. Understand that I'm a devout Christian minister who still loves his wife.

The pastor then unloads after months of silence. He told her that he'd kept quiet regarding this ordeal due to being so close to us both but when someone tried to make me the bad guy, he had to speak.

He told her that her daughter is the one that's wrong and that she (MIL) needs to stop making her daughter the victim. Shes the one that was unfaithful in the marriage. She's the one who is still committing adultery because she's still married. She's the one who has lied to him repeatedly about other men. Shes the one who has never tried to fix the marriage because it has been all about other men since the beginning of the seperation that was supposed to be about 'figuring things out'. She's the one who has caused problems in the life of their child. She's the one who's blamed him for her drinking but yet she still does it. She's the one that blamed him for her lack of church attendance but she came maybe twice in the 3 months he was gone. He told her if she wanted to leave because of my return then she needed to do what she felt but he WOULD NOT tell me I couldn't attend.

He said she didn't really say much after that.
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/12/11 12:02 AM
Well....

amen to what the pastor said.

Posted By: karmasrose Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/12/11 12:11 AM
clap

That's all I have to say.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/12/11 01:03 AM
Great news about the pastor. Glad someone is standing up for you on WWs side.

Now, about this "attempted communication" by WW, how did she try to get through, and how did you find out? Plug up those holes. Let her stew in her own filth.

Glad you came back to update us tonight. Keep to your Plan B. Dark right?
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/12/11 03:02 AM
Well, she's tried mostly through messages on phone. I will say I did listen to the messages (here comes the 2x4's) but I have not responded or spoke to her since early June. I will say there have still been some rough days but all and all, I'm doing okay. Taking it day by day.

I do still love her deeply in spite of all that has gone on over the last year (wow, it'll be a year next month). I have made a lot of progress. At one point, I didn't think I could survive without her. Now I know that I can and that I may even have to. Its just that I may have more difficulty than I thought harnessing the thoughts of the past 11 yrs.

I did have to tell a family friend, who'd told me unsolicited info about what he'd seen and her, to no longer pass that info on to me. He understood.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/12/11 03:33 AM
So.......next time she leaves a message you are going to do what???????? Let's hear it. Say it with me, DELETE.

You will be amazed at how much more quickly you will begin to heal once you have eliminated this source of anguish. I know you probably think that it doesn't affect you too badly, but I am here to tell you that you are most definitely WRONG.

So, what new things have you done for yourself?
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/12/11 03:14 PM
I know it probably wouldve helped if I didn't listen but I wanted to see what they were about. One was about the dog I've been caring for this entire time. One was about her wanting us to file bankruptcy together because it would be cheaper to do it together (she mentioned that I should get money from my IRA to pay for it). One was because she questioned where my mind was since I don't respond.

From now on, I won't even listen....
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/13/11 02:54 PM
Just thought I'd post a short little poem that has helped me greatly:

When through life's darkened maze I go
And troubles overwhelm my soul,
O grant me, Lord, your grace to know
That You are surely in control.

Hopefully, it may help someone else, too.
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/13/11 04:09 PM
Thanks for the poem Mark. Helps me..........
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/16/11 01:27 AM
Well, day by day, I start to feel a little better. Spent some time with some friends today and had a ball. The hitting instructor got from spring/summer has tapered to a stand still, but that's okay.

I had developed some strong feelings for a social worker that comes by my school but they seemed to have tapered off since I found out she was married. I really don't want to date, though, since I'm still married but I've been okay for the past 11 months, so what's a few more. I do still have some hope that WW will hit a snag somewhere and be shaken back to reality, but I will survive if it doesn't happen.

We have a "status" hearing in a couple of weeks since mediation has not been reached. Don't know what to expect at one of those but all of this is new to me. I will continue on my course and continue to pray for her.

After almost a year, I know that my $LB is not empty and I don't know if it ever will be. But for now, it's just me with her living in her fantasy world of sin and adultery. I pray for her constantly but I continue to seek God's cleansing work in my own life as well. I made many mistakes so there is still some cleaning that needs to happen but I continue on.

Btw, what exactly is a status hearing?
Posted By: My4Loves Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/16/11 11:05 AM
Mark - I would encourage you to try and avoid contact with women until you are divorced. Your emotional state is high, and you are feeling vulnerable. Since you love your wife still, it is best to take the time to work through those emotions.

Marriages have been saved at the 11th hour before. Keep yourself in deep prayer, and know GOD is working what needs working.

Plan B - Patience, Time, and Consistency!!!
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/16/11 11:30 AM
Originally Posted by itistoughlove
Mark - I would encourage you to try and avoid contact with women until you are divorced. Your emotional state is high, and you are feeling vulnerable. Since you love your wife still, it is best to take the time to work through those emotions.

Marriages have been saved at the 11th hour before. Keep yourself in deep prayer, and know GOD is working what needs working.

Plan B - Patience, Time, and Consistency!!!

x1000

I haven't heard of a status hearing, but I would imagine that it is one where the judge sees to to "encourage" both parties to get on with the mediation. Do you have a lawyer?
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/16/11 07:38 PM
Neither of us have been able to afford lawyers.

I know that women should definitely be off limits for me right now. I'm extremely vulnerable as I discovered with the social worker but that's one temptation that has been overcome. Just have to be more aware in the future.

And I know that anything's possible. It's been almost a year and Dr. Harley suggest two years because the fog, if it ever will, usually wears off during that time frame.

Someone on another forum told me that after a year, if she hasn't snapped out of it, she never will. Maybe not on her own, but I believe she will. God is definitely the one who has to shake her back into reality. I just don't know if I'll be there when that happens.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/16/11 08:51 PM
So not true that she will "never" snap out of it. Even on this site, DrH suggest no more than 2 years but not because the WS will NEVER snap out of it, it is just much more difficult after all of that time. The BSs life no longer revolves around the WS, and a lot of the things the WS does in that amount of time is hard to overcome. After 2 years, the BS should be ready to move on. I am reaching that 2 year point, but I am not ready. When the time is right, I will do what needs to be done.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/16/11 09:21 PM
I didn't really accept that it was true. Actually many do come back asking for another chance but it's usually after the BS has moved on.

What's kinda different right now is that I'm currently attending the church where WE went, where she grew up, where her local family attends but she doesn't come. I see her family and all the people who watched her grow up every week but she's not there. It's like I'm at home in her HOME church but she isn't.

She can't feel at home or at peace there for obvious reasons but it's just odd I see them more than she does.
Posted By: My4Loves Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/17/11 12:56 AM
Be her Lighthouse Mark ...


Originally Posted by ark
I hope some others find comfort from the storm...


Your spouse is in huge conflict....

the good news is and the truth is that they are totally incapable of a healthy relationship with anyone right now...

the competition we believe that exist with the OP is a shallow empty reflection of Gods light in this world...

It is empty and lonely no matter how good the rush

their actions are actions that they themselves do not like in themselves right now....though the need to go back again again and attempt to prove themselves wrong or right is strong...they do not like what they are doing...

their actions towards you, the children, the OP, and themselves...keep them from engaging in any type of real interactions...with real depth and truth

all they offer are misguided attempts to fill the void that has appeared in their life...
yet the filling is way too fleeting to sustain them and the truth is with them each night he or she lays down regardless of whom is next to them....

they are the living cliche..of no matter where you go to hide...there YOU are...

he or she is lost to themselves...

and you stand at that point of being the lighthouse home....even though they create the waves that block their vision from seeing that...

You become the lighthouse..you fill your home with light, calmness and sanctuary...

see just visualize yourself as a lighthouse...

Your offer them glimpses into that sanctuary at every chance you get...
you invite them towards it...let them know it is there as much as you can in a most subtle way....

they are untrustable right now...
but you know that...so they can't hurt you right now...they will spend great energy to convince others differently...but you know better...

you show the path by also protecting the children from their painful actions.....
set clear boundaries that the OP is not part of your childrens lives....
without lovebusting...
offer alternatives that let them see the children...but be clear that the OP is to have no access to them...
you fill the childrens lives with stability....they deserve it and need it more than anything else....

Do not discuss and or powerstruggle with them on irrational movements...seek out and validate the rational ones with lots of praise for when he or she chooses correctly....

your spouse is very lonely and sad right now..but that is OK...no one can stay very long in that chaos...it is wearisome to the soul...
and remove yourself from any aspect of participating or adding to the chaos...and eventually they will see that you are the only one...who stood with clarity and reason when they needed it most...


be the lighthouse....
OK that's really out there I know....

strength to you all..
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/17/11 03:10 AM
That was touching, ITL. Months ago, someone else used the lighthouse analogy similarly. Your post reminds me of a quote I read a while back that said, "you'll never find in sin what you go into sin to find".

While she seems so happy, I find it hard to believe she really and truly is. I believe it's all a facade she uses trying to avoid some deep rooted issues I'm fully aware of. Her step-mom, who's known her since she was 2 said she looks happy but she doesn't feel she's really happy. This was after recently seeing her for the first time since this saga began.

Sometimes I feel crazy for still having these feelings. For being willing to accept someone back who's essentially stomped all over my heart. I guess real love is hard to explain. To some, it's even hard to fathom.

Right now, I guess I do consider myself a lighthouse with a bright light attempting to direct a lost ship to safety and security. The light is still bright, but lights do eventually burn out. Id like to say that mine never will, but I can't.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/18/11 02:09 AM
I am MMMAAADDD!

While in a parade this evening, I looked over and saw my wife, daughter, and OM like they were a family. It didnt bother me to see her and him but it did bother me to see her and him with MY daughter. Now my daughter is being even more corrupted after all of this.

That really p!sses me off!
Posted By: Grace4me Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/18/11 02:32 AM
You know, it's ok to be mad about that. Be strong, you have friends that are praying for you tonight....for direction, for wisdom and for peace.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/18/11 03:14 AM
Originally Posted by Grace4me
You know, it's ok to be mad about that. Be strong, you have friends that are praying for you tonight....for direction, for wisdom and for peace.

Be strong brother. Call your lawyer.

CV
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/18/11 04:54 AM
I'm sitting thinking about all that has happened over that last year and I think I've given up all hope that my marriage can be saved or even that reconciliation is even possible. I'm beginning to even question whether it was my love or stupidity that kept me holding on to that hope.

What I saw tonight (wife and daughter with other man after all the talk about keeping her private life private and away from our daughter), I even question whether or not I still love her. Seeing that hit me to the core. Not only is my daughter being negatively influenced but she is now being exposed to anorher man.

WW has probably been exposing her to him for a while now and that makes me so angry!!!


Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/18/11 06:46 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
I'm sitting thinking about all that has happened over that last year and I think I've given up all hope that my marriage can be saved or even that reconciliation is even possible. I'm beginning to even question whether it was my love or stupidity that kept me holding on to that hope.

What I saw tonight (wife and daughter with other man after all the talk about keeping her private life private and away from our daughter), I even question whether or not I still love her. Seeing that hit me to the core. Not only is my daughter being negatively influenced but she is now being exposed to anorher man.

WW has probably been exposing her to him for a while now and that makes me so angry!!!

Mark,

Remember that i love you, bro, when I say this... You have to have a solid plan. You cannot just sit back and watch your WW dismantle what's left of your life. You need to get a lawyer and fight for custody of your child. Whether you love your WW or not, you have to take a stand and say "this OM will not act as my daughter's new dad".

You also need to be working to prevent yourself from being triggered. Every time there is contact of any sort, there is a trigger.


CV
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/18/11 06:59 PM
CV,

I do have a plan. I spoke to my pastor last night and told him about it, and he was as disgusted as I was. He told me tha on Monday, he's going to talk to the judge in our divorce case (they go out to lunch and have a pretty good relationship) and discuss hypothetically the situation, without mentioning names, to give me an understanding of what I'm facing.

His info will give me my answer. If he says there is something I can do, I'm cashing in some of my IRA and will get a lawyer ASAP. Its past time. In the meanwhile, I will continue to seek God's direction through prayer.

By the way, CV, I can't thank you enough for all you've been to me. Please keep me in your prayers.

Also, I think I did pretty good last night. I saw them. They saw me. And I know he knew who I was because my daughter yelled "mommy, there goes daddy!". BUT I just kept walking.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/19/11 12:09 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
CV,

I do have a plan. I spoke to my pastor last night and told him about it, and he was as disgusted as I was. He told me tha on Monday, he's going to talk to the judge in our divorce case (they go out to lunch and have a pretty good relationship) and discuss hypothetically the situation, without mentioning names, to give me an understanding of what I'm facing.

His info will give me my answer. If he says there is something I can do, I'm cashing in some of my IRA and will get a lawyer ASAP. Its past time. In the meanwhile, I will continue to seek God's direction through prayer.

By the way, CV, I can't thank you enough for all you've been to me. Please keep me in your prayers.

Also, I think I did pretty good last night. I saw them. They saw me. And I know he knew who I was because my daughter yelled "mommy, there goes daddy!". BUT I just kept walking.

good. Mark I'm glad things are moving in a direction. I'm sorry W is still WW, but it sounds like your pastor is stepping up to the plate. I hope it's a home run.


Cv
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/19/11 02:04 AM
CV,

Things are moving. And thanks for the encouragement. You reminded me that faith is actually an action word. It does not mean doing nothing. It means doing things that you are able to do and relying on God to do what you can't.

I'm prayerful that he might be able to give me some info that will encourage me.
Mark,

Legal papers filed by a lawyer will be a massive wake up for your WW. Ask for sole physical and legal custody in addition to an order that demands that the paramour not be allowed around your DD.

Will you get all that? No. But seeing it will shock your WW and be a huge splash of cold water on her fantasy.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/19/11 03:10 AM
Help,

That is my plan exactly. I know it's asking too much, but I worked in sales for 10+ years and I learned that you never usually get a sale at full sticker price but you definitely will not if you don't try.

Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/19/11 11:45 AM
I have come to the conclusion i should move forward with legal counsel regardless of the intel I receive today. There is too much still at stake and it's time that I actively get involved. AND I really feel good about making this decision.

Thanks all for your encouragement and slaps in the face, at times. Sometimes we bs's need to be awakened from our fogs, too.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/19/11 01:24 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
I have come to the conclusion i should move forward with legal counsel regardless of the intel I receive today. There is too much still at stake and it's time that I actively get involved. AND I really feel good about making this decision.

Thanks all for your encouragement and slaps in the face, at times. Sometimes we bs's need to be awakened from our fogs, too.
hurray
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/19/11 05:02 PM
Just got the money I needed for a lawyer and I have an appointment set for Thursday. Yeeeaaaahhhh!
Posted By: beginagain Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/19/11 07:25 PM
Mark,

I have been following your story and you have been doing great! I find your attitude inspirational!

Glad to see you are protecting yourself and your daughter!

Hang in there,

ba
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/19/11 10:15 PM
Originally Posted by beginagain
Mark,

I have been following your story and you have been doing great! I find your attitude inspirational!

Glad to see you are protecting yourself and your daughter!

Hang in there,

ba

Thanks.

Its good to know I've been an inspiration. At times, I've wondered about all that I have and haven't done and whether or not I was being misunderstood about what my goal has been.

I've recently come to realize that while I believe I do have faith, I misunderstood it. I realize that God often wants to bless us but there are things we have to do. If I trust God, I must do what I can and allow him to do the rest.

What I can do is fight for my future and make sure, if the divorce goes through, that I don't get the shaft. I can fight for my daughter's future and well-being. I can't change my WW.

I will admit that I was quite stubborn as it related to legal counsel but if you kick a dog long enough, he'll eventually learn. What I saw on Saturday night was the last kick.

I don't know what the future holds. Whether my marriage will survive. Whether my WW will hit rock bottom. Whether the sun will come up tomorrow. What I do know is that, with God, the best is yet to come.

Thanks all you MBs for your support.
Posted By: BillCarolina Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/19/11 10:41 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Sometimes we bs's need to be awakened from our fogs, too.

I have to agree......reluctantly. sigh
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/19/11 10:43 PM
Now this is the Mark I was hoping to see. I am glad that you are here.

I also believe that you can have faith, but the answer to your prayers can also be in the form of plans to follow. It reminds me of that joke(although, there holds a lot of truth in it). The one with the man on the roof during the flood.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/20/11 12:09 AM
Bill, even though I haven't posted much on your thread, I've been following. Stay encouraged. I know it's hard, as co so many others here but you can do it. It's almost been a year for me and I still have an occasional bad day but they are getting fewer. And, yes, i think I'm out of my fog now.

Scotland, you've given me much advice over the course of my journey. Some I've listened to. Some I haven't, but maybe should've. Thanks. It has taken me a while but there is still fight in me. That fight is now being directed in another direction. It's now called "Operation DD". I have to do all I can for her now.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/20/11 12:38 AM
"Operation DD" is a noble mission indeed, and I say, "Carry on."

You have fought the good fight in regards to your marriage by attempting a Plan A and then moving into plan B. Now I see you gaining strength in Plan B. That is a Plan B success to me.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/20/11 03:23 AM
I will. I have no other option at this point. My DD didn't do anything to deserve this. She is innocent and my focus now (and probably should've been months ago) is to do what I can to minimize the affects all this has on her.

Its going to be the ultimate fight but I've been a fighter all my life. I fought hard for my marriage. It may or may not be over. But that's neither here nor there anymore.

I never thought I'd ever say I would stop fighting for my marriage. Actually, yes I did. I just never thought it would happen prior to the divorce being finalized. I haven't really actively fought due to being dark but I thunk you guys understand how my hope that being dark would impact my wife.

It's okay, though. Maybe I am a plan b success. Idk.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/20/11 12:12 PM
Removing yourself from the drama(ie NC), focusing on creating a life for yourself without your WS and recovering personally IS a Plan B success. Don't diminish that. It's not easy getting into Plan B. I am sure that you have seen all of the posters who are so very reluctant to enter it, even though they know the healing that will come.

You're doing the right thing.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/20/11 02:29 PM
Originally Posted by helpthelostdads
Mark,

Legal papers filed by a lawyer will be a massive wake up for your WW. Ask for sole physical and legal custody in addition to an order that demands that the paramour not be allowed around your DD.

But seeing it will shock your WW and be a huge splash of cold water on her fantasy.

I can't say that this is at the back of my mind. If it happens, great. If it doesn't, that's good, too. Ultimately, taking this next step will do wonders for helping me to know that I've literally done everything I could do for my marriage.

Honestly, though, moving forward with legal counsel has little to do with my marriage and everything to do with my daughter. It's taken me a while to get here, but it's better late than never, right????
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/20/11 03:37 PM
Update...

Pastor was basically told by our judge that what my wife is doing is normal and that the justice system can't control that. He also said that if the father is concerned, he needs to build a case and fight it out in the court of law.

So it was somewhat discouraging but at the same time it gave me some validation on the path I've chosen to take.

It's not over until God says it's over....
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/22/11 11:42 AM
So today i have the appointment with lawyer. I'm nervous, yet determined all at the same time. The odds say I probably don't have a chance at getting my daughter, but I will never know without putting up a fight.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/22/11 12:34 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
So today i have the appointment with lawyer. I'm nervous, yet determined all at the same time. The odds say I probably don't have a chance at getting my daughter, but I will never know without putting up a fight.

Hang in there. You never know until you try!

CV
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/22/11 01:32 PM
Let us know how it goes.

Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/22/11 02:44 PM
Will do...

Im reminded of a quote:

Only those who attempt the absurd can accomplish the impossible.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/22/11 09:45 PM
Well, I just left the lawyers office where I told him everything I know. I asked tons of questions and he simply told me there are no guarantees but we will do our best. I don't expect any guarantees, I just want to do what I can do and let God do the rest.

I was somewhat discouraged thinking whether immorality and all the proof I have of it would be enough but he actually requested it all even though it's from the 1st 2 months of the separation.

So the fight begins and it's one that I'm not ashamed to have entered.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/25/11 05:40 PM
As tomorrow approaches, I get more nervous but at the same time, Im sure it'll be okay. Tomorrow is our status hearing and my lawyer will be making his first appearance.

At our last mediation hearing, my wife was informed I would be fighting for custody and that I would get a lawyer. The next day she petitions for an emergency hearing (whatever that is) to finalize the divorce because my statements were just another attempt to prolong things. I can't honestly say that there isn't a small thread of truth to that but it's small. My MAIN focus is me and my daughter.

I don't think she thought I could or would get a lawyer. I did and I think she will be surprised to say the least. So the journey continues....
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/25/11 08:15 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
So the journey continues....


And so it does! You are doing well on it.....as well as could be given the circumstances.
Posted By: Caracal Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/25/11 10:02 PM
Let us know how you got on today Mark.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/25/11 11:55 PM
Originally Posted by Caracal
Let us know how you got on today Mark.

Maybe I'm missing something. Could you please help me understand this statement...
Posted By: Caracal Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/26/11 12:05 AM
Sorry mark, maybe my Aussie slang needs translation, lol. How did court and your lawyer go today? Hope that is better...
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/26/11 01:00 AM
It's not your Aussie slang that is the problem, it's the timing. It's still Sunday night over here silly. I dunno how they do things down under, but we don't usually have court on Sundays. laugh

I am sure Mark will let us know how things go. It's nice that you care. We will all be standing behind him.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/26/11 01:01 AM
Okay, now I'm with you. Court is not until tomorrow and I will surely update you guys on the happenings.
Posted By: Caracal Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/26/11 02:34 AM
Oops. blush
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/26/11 10:15 PM
Well, here's the update on today's status hearing...(rather long)

It began rather interesting to see her mother and aunt there. Her mother has been her biggest supporter in spite of knowing what she's done. Her aunt (who's very nonconfrontational) has been non-committal and her presence was the biggest surprise because she also knows.

We were asked into the judges chamber where he wanted to know what was still on the table after our failed mediation. Wife said she didn't know. My lawyer stated everything including custody. My wife then gets mad about that and starts asking why. The judge, in a very agitated voice says anyone can fight for custody. She starts outlining how I haven't seen my daughter since June (not true and she knows it) and how she's tried several ways to contact me but I wouldn't respond.

The judge got extremely agitated by that statement since she asked for a protective order, got it granted, but yet admitted to repeatedly trying to contact me. He told her, "This is what you wanted. You didn't want him to contact you and now you're trying to contact him. The order says no contact via email, phone, text, or smoke signal (I so wanted to laugh)." He then tells her she would have to somehow communicate through a third party.

She then tells the judge she wants to utilize the services of a guardian ad litem (child advocate) because my residence was unfit. He replied that it wasn't unfit 10 minutes ago but he still agreed. She also requested that I be analyzed phsychologically (go figure). He stated was she gonna pay for it and she said no.

I have to tell you all the our judge has a known temper throughout the community so that doesn't really help either of us. My lawyer stated that the child advocate might really help because I might be able to tell about why I felt the way I do about custody but they would also probably find out about her boyfriend.

We moved to the courtroom to get things on the record and her mother and aunt came in. The judge ended up kicking them out because her mother was trying to coach her. He then basically yelled at my wife because she seemed to be unwilling to communicate with my lawyer.

He also got mad at her because she suggested that I give her my insurance information (I've been on her insurance for 5 years) but he told her that she couldn't do that because we are still married.

He did have a few words for me stating that I couldn't stop the divorce (I thought right, but God can if he wants). He stated that i was trying to drag things out but no matter what happens, we will get a divorce.

He said that it seems that the two of us are simply trying to hurt one another now when he initially thought, way back in November, that this divorce would be smooth. I shook my head to his notion of me trying to hurt my wife and he asked why I did that. I just told him that I don't want to hurt my wife and that there are details that he's unaware of that cause me to be uncomfortable with my wife raising our daughter for the next 10 years.

He did say that we would have to go back to mediation and that it would possibly be another 3-4 months before any thing will get resolved. My wife wasn't the least bit happy about that. Lawyer said he thinks she may be already trying to get married again. I said IDK but who knows.

Anyways, that's the rather lengthy update.
Posted By: beginagain Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/26/11 10:22 PM
Mark,

You did great! Did your attorney help you at all?

Thanks!

Nancy
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/26/11 10:24 PM
Yes, he was a great help. He went to school with the judge and has a lot of experience with him. He actually helped me keep from sabatoging my case with my mouth a couple of times. He's now in the process of working on getting my parenting time back on track. It has badly compromised by the Protectice Order and the fact that she pretty much refused to communicate through a third-party.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/26/11 11:21 PM
Sounds like the judge saw through your WW, and that he is going to support your Plan B.

It's not just about prolonging the D, it's also about getting what you need to get done.

Sounds like it was as best as it could be.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/27/11 04:01 AM
It wasn't a great day but I guess it was a step in the right direction. He did seem pretty agitated at me, though, because "I'm trying to stop the divorce".

All this time, I will say that was most of my motivation. I don't know if it has helped or hurt my chances to get my daughter. I guess the unfortunate thing is I'm gonna be forced to release all the details in a public forum, to a social worker (probably) and bring shame to my wife. I still don't want to do it but what choices do I have.

Oh, yeah, I also have to get another job in order to pay for the continued litigation and stuff. That's okay though. It's what I MUST do.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/27/11 05:06 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
I guess the unfortunate thing is I'm gonna be forced to release all the details in a public forum, to a social worker (probably) and bring shame to my wife. I still don't want to do it but what choices do I have.

Nope. Mark, my brother, she brought the shame, Not you...

CV
(did Dallas get stomped??)
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/27/11 10:55 AM
Originally Posted by celticvoyager
Originally Posted by marksaysay
I guess the unfortunate thing is I'm gonna be forced to release all the details in a public forum, to a social worker (probably) and bring shame to my wife. I still don't want to do it but what choices do I have.

Nope. Mark, my brother, she brought the shame, Not you...

CV
(did Dallas get stomped??)

Yeah, I know. The love I still have for her keeps me with the reservations about doing. I know, at this point, she has really left me no other alternative.

BTW, CV, are you ready to resume as IM?

And no, Dallas won.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/27/11 02:20 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
BTW, CV, are you ready to resume as IM?

And no, Dallas won.


In light of what you last wrote??? hmmmm.. Can I IM for a cowboys fan???? think


LOL.. Yeah. Let me know later today which account and all that stuff. Talk to the lawyer maybe and see if he has a suggestion on how to approach this.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/27/11 09:32 PM
Had an interview today for the second job I need to pay for the continued divorce/custody ordeal. Could start as soon as Saturday.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/27/11 11:37 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Had an interview today for the second job I need to pay for the continued divorce/custody ordeal. Could start as soon as Saturday.

Another update:

I got the job. They called me back about an hour later telling me I can start on the 10th. Yeah!!!
Posted By: New_Path Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/28/11 12:41 AM
Congrats Mark, at least it will keep you busy and great job on getting the lawyer involved. I know you don't want the D, I'm sorry that you have to deal with all of it. Fight for your DD.
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/28/11 01:24 AM
Congrats on the job!
Posted By: jessitaylor Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/28/11 01:34 PM
happy for you, hope all goes better for you, baby steps, day by day
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 09/29/11 02:40 PM
So after getting the job on Monday, I woke up to a car that wouldn't start. It didnt bother me, though. After all I've been through, not much bothers me anymore.

One thing I've recognized is that God is using my circumstances to prepare me for something down the road. It's OKAY!!!
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/02/11 01:18 AM
Went to orientation for my new/old job (I worked there 10 years ago). I start my first shift a week from Thursday. I'm so ready.

Still moving forward....
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/02/11 01:40 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Went to orientation for my new/old job (I worked there 10 years ago). I start my first shift a week from Thursday. I'm so ready.

Still moving forward....

After this, I had a flat tire and just laughed it off. Nothing really bothers me much anymore. God is still in control.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/02/11 10:26 PM
Just realized tomorrow is the anniversary of the ILYBNILWY speech and the day we separated. I honestly never thought it would make a few months, let alone a year.

It's funny because right now there is no sadness or anything related to it. It's just another day that approaches. I guess that means I've really made some progress.

Just gotta keep moving....
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/03/11 01:06 PM
I have a question for you vets. It has been stated over and over that ws's make horrible parents. I can't say I don't disagree but how do you use that to get the kids? Many states like Indiana don't factor in moral shortcomings in divorce and custody battles.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/03/11 01:27 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
I have a question for you vets. It has been stated over and over that ws's make horrible parents. I can't say I don't disagree but how do you use that to get the kids? Many states like Indiana don't factor in moral shortcomings in divorce and custody battles.

What you need to demonstrate are actions that are detrimental to your child. Can you make a list of things she is doing that may be harmful?

CV
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/03/11 04:34 PM
The things I can think of right now are:

Bringing OM around daughter during divorce
Multiple threats to keep DD away when she doesn't get her way (documented)
Abandoning the vow of teaching DD Christian principles which could cause confusion living in 2 households (daughter was dedicated at 6mos and WW no longer goes to church)
Alienating DD from godparents who know of her actions and don't agree (they are also our pastor and his wife)
Alienation from dd's other grandmother (older woman who cared for our daughter til she was about 3 and has a close relationship with her).
Multiple reports of DD not having hair done from some that include her family (WW never used to let DD go without her hair being well taken care of

What other things are there? What else could I use to prove her actions are detrimental if moral lapse is not considered?
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/05/11 04:25 PM
Update (kinda):

I know you all are going to hit me with 2x4's but a concerned family member of WW told me that just last night, WW posted pics of her and OM AND pics of DD in her underwear on FB. The first pics don't bother me but the second ones do, greatly.
Posted By: Neak Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/05/11 04:54 PM
Call the police. Make a report.

Get screenshots asap and give them to your attorney.

You will only get a 2x4 from me if you fail to follow through on this. Don't contact WW directly, either. Let your lawyer and law enforcement do anything that needs doing.
Posted By: MFJ1974 Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/05/11 05:08 PM
screen shots, immediately! And down load the pictures as proof!
Posted By: markos Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/05/11 05:24 PM
I wonder if it would also help to round up a couple witnesses to see the page on FB for themselves so they can testify to it later.
Posted By: Neak Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/05/11 06:14 PM
Anything and everything! This girl is SEVEN YEARS OLD in her skivvies online!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/05/11 06:22 PM
Lawyer was contacted but wasn't in. I spoke with paralegal and told her. She said she didn't know what could be done but thought that I would have to have proof. I told her I wasn't a friend so I couldn't get the pics. She said I should someone who's her friend do it.

I called her stepmom, who was the one who told me about the pics, but she said that she would have to think about it and to call her back tomorrow.

I'm waiting for someone who goes to our church and is still her friend to call me back. Other than him, I don't know anyone else and I don't know what else I can do.

Also, during the conversation where the pics were brought up, stepmom told me wife called her dad discussing my fight for custody. She said her dad, who I exposed to way at the beginning and has said she deserves to be happy, told her rather bluntly that she needed to leave these guys alone and stay her a@@ at home. It seems that he now understands the gravity of what's going on with his daughter now. I tried to tell him months ago but he turned a blind eye to it.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/05/11 06:26 PM
Can you try the fake account, friending someone whose her friend and keep going till you get in?

Theres a description of how to do it somewhere on here, though not sure how long it takes
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/05/11 07:43 PM
The crazy thing about it all is that my ww is a social worker. But I guess the most pertinent piece of info is that she is a wayward...that says it all.

And yes, I tried it months ago but after going into Plan B, I stopped trying to get access. I'm not so sure if I can get in...
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/05/11 08:44 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
The crazy thing about it all is that my ww is a social worker. But I guess the most pertinent piece of info is that she is a wayward...that says it all.

And yes, I tried it months ago but after going into Plan B, I stopped trying to get access. I'm not so sure if I can get in...

Mark, I tried. I can't.. Besides, I think she knows my real name.

CV
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/06/11 12:12 AM
Thank you, lord. I just got the pic and my daughter has on nothing but her panties. No tshirt. No gown. Nothing. And I have the proof.
Posted By: Neak Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/06/11 12:20 AM
God is good!!!!!!!!!

Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/06/11 12:22 AM
Originally Posted by Neak
God is good!!!!!!!!!

All the time.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/06/11 01:03 AM
Btw, the pic has already been forwarded to my lawyer.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/06/11 02:41 PM
Lawyer responded to the pic and all of the proof given about WW's adulterous activities very negatively. Since ww's profile is private and can only be seen by friends, its not public. And because of the action of my daughter in the pic, it didn't seem to be posted for the purpose of exploitation.

Also, he stated that legally, all the adulterous proof and morality concerns would do no one any good in court. We are a no fault state and that stuff doesnt matter in court. I just have to bring it to the GAL's attention. They stated that I should concentrate on the task of getting custody &/or more time with daughter and nothing else.

That's what the heck I'm doing. Uggghhhhh!!!!
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/06/11 02:50 PM
Quote
Since ww's profile is private and can only be seen by friends, its not public. And because of the action of my daughter in the pic, it didn't seem to be posted for the purpose of exploitation.
Here's the thing, though: your DD's pic can be copied and pasted to anywhere on the internet. There is no such thing as complete and total privacy on facebook. Your WW has absolutely no business posting a pic of your DD in a partially nude photo! Absolutely, that pic can be exploited!

Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/06/11 02:54 PM
I really just want to cry....I CAN'T WIN!!!!
Posted By: Lexxxy Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/06/11 02:56 PM
MB has a great point.

She cannot control the actions of her "friends" on facebook.
They could copy and paste that picture ANYWHERE.

Posted By: maritalbliss Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/06/11 03:00 PM
I'm sorry to upset you, Mark, but I thought you should know that. Is there some way you can get her to delete that pic?
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/06/11 08:19 PM
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
I'm sorry to upset you, Mark, but I thought you should know that. Is there some way you can get her to delete that pic?

MB,

Your post didn't upset me. I'm just upset with the prospect of my daughter being raised full-time by her mother who has abandoned her marital vow, abandoned her vow to raise our daughter in a Christian home with biblical teaching, who has sent nude photos of herself to several men, who has been unfaithful to me, who is teaching our daughter that life is about pursuing selfish endeavors, who has put another man or men in front of DD and she still is married, who put a basically naked picture of our daughter on facebook.

That's what upset me. I've done all I can. My only hope seems to be the GAL but even that doesnt seem promising.

It is really and truly all in God's hands. Please pray for me. It hasnt been a good day.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/06/11 09:51 PM
Hi Mark

Theres no harm in trying a good old game of bluff in a situation such as this, imo.

Contact ww and give her a good scare.

Dear WW

I am seriously displeased with your actions in posting a picture of our DD online in her underwear. Others have also contacted me due to their shock at seeing this picture in such a public place. I do not think you have considered how easy it is for predators to access FB and also any of your x number (include if a high number) of friends and anyone with access to their accounts can now copy and reproduce this picture. It may already have gone viral across the net.

Because I am a nice guy I would like to resolve this amicably between ourselves. However if the picture is not taken down immediately I will be taking action and informing the authorities.

I will be contacting my lawyer regarding the effect your actions will have on custody. I also plan to inform child protection police officers that you are making my daughter's image availiable to abusers and ask them to investigate both you and the OM. I will also request social services (I dont know what the US equivalent is!) investigate the suitability of the home environment which is being provided to my daughter, where she is being advertised to internet abusers.

I shall also ask our DD's school to keep a more careful watch on her because her mother has foolishly made her identity and image so publicly available.

If you are willing to take it down however, I will assume that it was simply an innocent mistake and leave it at that.

Mark

-------------------------------

It is just easier for her to take it down than to find out whether or not you are bluffing. Plus, as you have discovered, lawyers are lazy, so if she consults hers he will prob tell her to take it down to be on the safe side so that he doesnt have to do anything about it.

Posted By: indiegirl Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/06/11 09:56 PM
Actually, even if her lawyer says 'Its nothing to worry about'
She will think you must have a better lawyer than hers because your letter sounds so confident!!!

In fact, if she calls you with any nonsense of that kind say.

'My lawyer is better than yours. Dont make me call him and tell him we need to proceed, because I will. Just take the picture down and we dont have a problem.'

There is nothing for her to gain by calling your bluff either so it should be easy to shoot down.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/06/11 10:07 PM
He can't unless he does it through his lawyer. He has an RO on him.

CV
Posted By: indiegirl Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/06/11 10:14 PM
Ah.

damn thats frustrating.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/06/11 11:12 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Ah.

damn thats frustrating.

I don't want to post his updates for him, but she's fighting against compliance with the judge's orders as well. Bickering with his lawyer.

If I heard right, the lawyer is threatening to file contempt of the judge's order if she doesn't begin complying.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/06/11 11:43 PM
First of all, she doesn't have a lawyer. It seems she is either confident things will go her way or she can't afford one. So far, it would seem things are going her way since her actions don't have any "legal" ramifications.

She has been pretty stern and unwilling to budge with my lawyers in their attempts to negotiate with her. The paralegal who did the talking after consulting with the lawyer actually told my my wife is lost. I wouldve never thought that. LOL

They said it almost seems like she may eventually make my case for me. She's already gotten on the judge's bad side for telling him I would t respond to her numerous attempts at contact. He got mad because SHE filed the protective order.

Legal counsel plans to play hardball with her now that they see what they're dealing with. And she's a social worker. Thats what's so surprising about how she's acting. Or maybe it's not...she is a wayward.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/07/11 12:10 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
First of all, she doesn't have a lawyer. It seems she is either confident things will go her way or she can't afford one.


This seems to be popular with waywards.

Originally Posted by marksaysay
And she's a social worker. Thats what's so surprising about how she's acting. Or maybe it's not...she is a wayward.


WOW. Its like the disease makes them do exactly what they know they should not.

I wonder if wayward policemen break the law, wayward accountants dont do their taxes, wayward reporters stop knowing how to spell and wayward cooks start having cereal for dinner
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/07/11 12:11 AM
Quote
Please pray for me. It hasnt been a good day.
I'm so sorry, mark. I'm sending up a prayer for you.
Posted By: Wonderingif Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/07/11 12:21 AM
Personally, I would report this to Children's Services. And I'd be talking to some other lawyers to see if they might be more aggressive about this. The thought of those pics make me sick. Too many red flags.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/07/11 12:28 AM
Originally Posted by Wonderingif
Personally, I would report this to Children's Services. And I'd be talking to some other lawyers to see if they might be more aggressive about this. The thought of those pics make me sick. Too many red flags.
Agree about the attorney. Mark, your attorney needs to understand the danger of a child's semi-nude photo appearing on a 'private' FB account. That is outrageous, egregious and absolutely unacceptable. If he doesn't 'get' that, you need to spend your hard-earned bucks on another attorney. Tell him that. HE works for YOU.

I don't think your WW is intentionally exploiting your DD, but I DO think her moral compass is so skewed that she has lost sight of protecting her children - especially on the internet.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/07/11 12:43 AM
She works for our state department of child services.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/07/11 12:48 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
She works for our state department of child services.
Then your attorney needs to make sure any contact to them needs to be to her supervisors in some seriously stern wording. Child Services is taxpayer-funded. They can't afford to have an employee in a position of any power there who is also endangering her own child.

So much the better. Raise a little hell. No, strike that - raise a LOT of hell.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/07/11 01:44 AM
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Originally Posted by marksaysay
She works for our state department of child services.
Then your attorney needs to make sure any contact to them needs to be to her supervisors in some seriously stern wording. Child Services is taxpayer-funded. They can't afford to have an employee in a position of any power there who is also endangering her own child.

So much the better. Raise a little hell. No, strike that - raise a LOT of hell.

ITA...
Posted By: Caracal Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/07/11 09:42 AM
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Originally Posted by marksaysay
She works for our state department of child services.
Then your attorney needs to make sure any contact to them needs to be to her supervisors in some seriously stern wording. Child Services is taxpayer-funded. They can't afford to have an employee in a position of any power there who is also endangering her own child.

So much the better. Raise a little hell. No, strike that - raise a LOT of hell.
I also agree, raise a LOT Of hell. I am not sure how it works in the States, but in UK all social workers need to be registered with the General Social Care Council. Complaints about conduct or behaviour can be made to them and to the social worker's direct employer. If there is an equivilent deal in your country, you could have lawyer put strongly worded letters in with both agencies. Make sure any contact is in writing and sent registered post or hand delivered with you taking a stamped copy of receipt. If there is a GSCC equivilent, WW could potentially lose her registration and be unemployable within the field (or demoted to SW assistant or such, big pay cut)... though this would be a long shot it is highly likely WW would be called into a meeting and forced to think twice about her irresponsible behaviour with your DD. And remove the pic.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/07/11 01:06 PM
My lawyer will be contacting me shortly. I will recommend that he push the issue in terms of the picture. I think I'm gonna also suggest dcs (her employer) be contacted.

Posted By: beginagain Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/07/11 02:41 PM
Prayers to you and your daughter....

ba
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/07/11 08:39 PM
Lawyer stated that since a GAL has been appointed, the pic and all the other questionable stuff should just be held until I meet with her since her recommendation is going to carry a lot of weight in court. They also said legally WW's actions cannot be THE basis for the decision but it IS strongly considered.

Other than that, WW fought hard but to no avail on the most pressing issue, my parenting time. And guess what? I get my daughter in about an hour.... Yeeeaaaahhhh!!!!

It's a small but huge step in the right direction.
Posted By: beginagain Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/07/11 09:12 PM
So happy to hear that! Enjoy your time with your daughter! Your ww is evil trying to keep you from her!
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/07/11 09:40 PM
Originally Posted by beginagain
So happy to hear that! Enjoy your time with your daughter! Your ww is evil trying to keep you from her!

I understand your point but here's mine:

My WW is not evil nor is she my enemy. I wholeheartedly believe she is a weak Christian that gave Satan a foothold in her life and he's taking full advantage. She's terribly backslidden as is being deceived to think that sinful pursuits will bring her lasting happiness.

She's too blinded to see and realize that happiness and REAL joy are different. Several months ago, she told me she was praying for peace. With all that's going on, I don't believe she has it - worried about custody, the divorce still pending after almost a year, financial difficulties due to divorce issues being unresolved, the disappointment of people who love and care for her, being too shamed IMHO to attend the only church she's known, etc...

She's not my enemy and I don't hate her. I hate what she has done to me, our family, and to herself.

I may be wrong but that's what I believe. And since I believe it, I also believe that God, in his timing, will bring her back to him. Right now, I'm committed to waiting with God for her return. Right now.....

Please understand that waiting and pining are not the same. I stopped pining over her months ago. I just came to realize I can't change her. I will simply live my life and wait on God.
Posted By: Caracal Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/07/11 09:54 PM
Quote
She's not my enemy and I don't hate her. I hate what she has done to me, our family, and to herself.
I feel exactly the same Mark. I hate the actions of WH, and mourn the man he was. But I still have hope that my real husband will reappear, that his death is not permanent. Thanks for a much needed reminder that hating the person will only make us bitter and consumed.
Posted By: beginagain Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/07/11 10:16 PM
Hey Mark,

Of course what you are saying is true. Hate the sin, love the sinner as they say.

Best,
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/08/11 12:06 AM
MarriageBuilders is designed with reserving the love you have for a wayward via a plan B.

Capisce?
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/08/11 02:47 AM
Yeah, I know. I have even realized that even if divorce does happen, that doesn't mean I have to stop loving her. My unconditional love for my WW actually transcends the status that may eventually be listed at the courthouse.

I know she may not deserve it but I love her nonetheless, wayward or not.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/08/11 04:34 PM
So I checked my phone this morning and noticed a call from MIL. I'm sure it either has to do with my fight for custody or more like my WW being forced into letting me have my daughter this weekend.

Since this all began, I wrote MIL letter in which I exposed my wife and simply asked for assistance in saving my family. Since she didn't respond, I tried to call and even went to her home several times. She wouldn't answer either and I knew she was home.

Now that I'm fighting for my daughter, she wants to talk.
Posted By: Cameo2 Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/08/11 06:26 PM
Mark, I haven't seen this mentioned about the pic of your daughter, but here's something else to consider. Has nothing to do with a pervert enjoying the picture, but what if one of the people who can access her account leaves it open on their computer. Their kid sees it and saves it on their cell phone (all kids have them now, right?) and shares it with everyone at school. How's your daughter going to feel about that? What if it comes back to haunt her when she's in junior high? High school? This could be majorly embarrasing for her for the rest of her life. Please keep pushing this with everyone involved and don't let it be swept under the rug. This isn't the infant lying on the bearskin rug, this is a young girl who will be devastated to find out that so many people, all her mom's friends at the very least, saw that picture. My folks had a similiar pic of me. At least I knew that no one but them ever saw it, but I darn sure destroyed it as a teenager when I realized they still had it. I can't imagine the humiliation I would feel if I knew it had been posted and shared.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/12/11 07:46 PM
Well,I had an awesome time with my daughter this past weekend. I ended up doing her hair on Sunday night because it was in was a mess.

I told ww's stepmom about it and she was excited about it. She also said her husband (my FIL) told her I was forced to take my daughter. She doesn't know if that was what he was told or if that was his take on the situation. I know it wasn't the truth and she does, too.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/14/11 12:41 PM
Just here to report that there's nothing new to report. And that really feels different. I still think about ww but it's more or less concern for her impending reality check somewhere down the road. It's not the sorrow over my seemingly failed marriage. It has nothing to do with the betrayal or her new "relationship". It doesn't even bother me. I still pray for her, asking that God be merciful to her.

Well, I guess there is some new news. I started my second job last night. It was nothing but training, or retraining, since I worked there before. Just sat in a room reading from a book and watching videos (Ugh!). Tonight, I think I'll get a chance to move around a bit more. Can't wait.

Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/14/11 12:44 PM
Congrats on the new old job. laugh

And isn't Plan B great? The longer you are in it, the less the A seems to affect your life. Keep it up. You're doing great.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/14/11 01:06 PM
The other day, I got a new cell phone and did the whole transfer thing. As I was looking through it, i found an old text from ww I'd forgot about from March. It talked about how she knew that I needed to find someone else and that she wouldn't mind if i did.

I thought back and realized that don't NEED anyone. I haven't dated. I don't have a desire to date and i'm okay with that. I've realized that I can live all by myself.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/18/11 07:38 PM
Here to report that I'm doing really good. I started my 2nd job and will be heading there in a bit.

An interesting thing to tell is pastor got another call from MIL asking him to tell me to leave the church so ww could attend the church where she grew up. Pastor said he would not. He said he told her if ww really wanted to be there, where was she the 3 months I was gone. MIL stated 3 of those weeks were spent with her father (which I and pastor both know to be a lie since I've been talking with FIL's wife the whole time). He size if that were true, where was she the other 9 weeks. There was no response.

Pastor also told me that he told our divorce judge (they are friends) that he knew us. Judge told him he was p!seed of (his exact words) when wife said she'd been trying to contact me after he granted her a protective order. He knows she's trying to use the system and that she's not threatened by me...

So the soap opera continues....stay tuned.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/22/11 04:09 AM
So I passed by my ww on the way to my 2nd job today and there was like no emotion. I actually felt kinda sorry for her. So what does that mean? I don't think its a lack of love but more a testament of the realization that there's nothing I can do about her.

I know I still love her but what does the lack of emotion mean?
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/22/11 04:30 AM
It means you know there is nothing other than what you are doing that you can do...as you figured.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/22/11 04:32 AM
It means you need to take a different route to avoid her. Sorry, that just the Plan Ber in me speaking.

I wouldn't look too closely into what you felt at the moment, but what you may feel like tomorrow, or the next day, because of this contact.
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/22/11 04:35 AM
That is true. You will feel it and think about it for days.
YK?
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/22/11 12:40 PM
You guys consider the brief passing (she was going opposite direction) a breach in my Plan B? I feel nothing regarding it. Maybe I've just come to accept this is who she is and that my marriage really is over.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/22/11 06:57 PM
I know one thing, and one thing only, it WILL effect your PR. That is why I am suggesting you go a different way. What happened exactly? Did you drive passed her on the street?
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/22/11 07:07 PM
Originally Posted by Scotland
Did you drive passed her on the street?


Yep. It really hasn't bothered me, though. I'm okay. It was almost like I saw someone who looked like someone else. I guess I really did. I saw someone who looked like my wife.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/22/11 07:26 PM
Do you live in a big city?

Is there a different way that you could drive so this doesn't happen again?

Hey, I wouldn't go easy on a WS driving passed an OP, so I am not gonna let you off easy either. grin

Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/22/11 07:35 PM
Its not like I planned it. I was just on my way to work.

I live in small city (population around 40,000). There are only 2 ways to get to my 2nd job. I usually don't go that way but I don't usually go from my 1st job straight to my 2nd either.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/22/11 07:52 PM
I didn't say you planned it, but now that you know that it is possible, you need to take steps to ensure that it wouldn't happen again.

Every other Saturday, when I have to go to work, I take the bus. I live in a smallish city(70,000 people, except in the summer when all of them tourists are here). The street where I wait for the bus is just down the street from my house. It is the easiest stop to get to, especially in the winter. One of those Saturdays, my WH and OW came and got the boys. I waited for a few minutes and then I walked to the bus stop. About 20 minutes later, WH and OW drove past me. I didn't feel too badly, at that exact moment, but it did effect me. The next time I was at that bus stop, guess what I was doing? I was looking for WH's car. To stop me from doing that, I walk to a different bus stop now, one where I have very little chance of seeing WH. It's what is best for me, and my recovery.

There are bound to be small contacts, so you need to do everything within YOUR power to eliminate them.

I wanna ask you this, why do you think you are trying NOT to change your route? Be honest.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/22/11 08:11 PM
I don't think I'm trying not to change my route. Yesterday, I went straight from 1st to 2nd job. That was the first time I've had to do that and there's only one way.

My route in an few minutes (I have to work tonight) will be my normal route and different than yesterday's. I do understand what you mean but I didn't look for her and I won't today.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/26/11 12:17 AM
So after talking with my Pastor yesterday about some financial challenges brought on by the divorce, he told me he just wished I'd move on. I think his comment was in reference to my statement about still loving my wife in spite of all I've been through over the last year.

My question is what is moving on? I thought I had been doing pretty good. Ive had one conversation with ww since April (in June). I haven't seen her other than at court. I worked all spring/summer as a hitting coach given lessons (I used to play professionally). Ive come back to the church where he admitted I don't seem/look/act like anyone who's depressed or in a rut.

I joined the praise/worship team at church. I now work 2 jobs to support myself. I hang out with some buddies every Tues. and Thurs. playing dominoes/ backgammon and just having a good time. I go watch football with the guys. Right now, I'm actually out playing pool, something I haven't done in a while.

What does it mean to move on? Date? Find somebody? I think I've done a pretty good job of moving on. Yes, I still love my ww, but can't I still love her and move on? Does one have to be in another relationship to have moved on. Its kinda crazy now that I think about it because he actually said my ww will know when I have moved on. I think he was implying that if I found someone else, I wouldn't think about my wife.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/26/11 12:34 AM
Next time someone tells you to "move on" why don't you ask THEM what they mean by it. that way, you will be able to tell them your thoughts, and make your points.

It could be that your Pastor meant that you should stop discussing your WW. That would be right along with PB, so I too would suggest that.
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/26/11 12:47 AM
People DO like to tell other people what they think they oughta do.
Pastors are no different.

Fact is
you ARE moving on through the muck and mire and so on to the future.

Follow MB and you do it in a methodical and logical and spiritually sound way.

Where you wind up, no one knows. In a good place and hopefully at a good timely pace for you.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/26/11 01:05 AM
I did ask him. He couldn't really articulate what he meant either when I explained to him all that was going on. He did bring up dating. Then commented about me still being married. He later said he didn't know what he meant.

You may be right about ww talk. Although it doesn't happen hardly ever anymore. In the context of the conversation, she was brought up because of what we were talking about. I guess I just wanted to plug in that tidbit. I guess I really don't have to do that. He knows where I stand.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/26/11 01:29 PM
So I played on a pool league team for the first time last night since December. I'd done it for the last 6 years but had to stop when finances got tight. I was only a sub but if felt good. And I still got it.

Tonight, I'm going out to do some karaoke. Yeah!!!
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/26/11 11:13 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
So I played on a pool league team for the first time last night since December. I'd done it for the last 6 years but had to stop when finances got tight. I was only a sub but if felt good. And I still got it.

Tonight, I'm going out to do some karaoke. Yeah!!!

Uh oh....
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/26/11 11:22 PM
Originally Posted by celticvoyager
Originally Posted by marksaysay
So I played on a pool league team for the first time last night since December. I'd done it for the last 6 years but had to stop when finances got tight. I was only a sub but if felt good. And I still got it.

Tonight, I'm going out to do some karaoke. Yeah!!!

Uh oh....

What do you mean? I've got some golden pipes!!!
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/27/11 02:55 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Originally Posted by celticvoyager
Originally Posted by marksaysay
So I played on a pool league team for the first time last night since December. I'd done it for the last 6 years but had to stop when finances got tight. I was only a sub but if felt good. And I still got it.

Tonight, I'm going out to do some karaoke. Yeah!!!

Uh oh....

What do you mean? I've got some golden pipes!!!

Just joking! wink
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/27/11 03:16 AM
I know, CV. No love lost.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/27/11 03:25 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
I know, CV. No love lost.
Hahaha. I'm off tomorrow. I'll call if I find my phone! If you're unlucky I'll sing.


CV
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/28/11 04:05 AM
Had an absolute blast last night. Although its not something I plan on doing regularly (I'm not a bar/club guy), it was still fun.

Also, Ive to realize I probably don't have much of a chance at getting DD. I work 60 - 70 hrs a week with no family around to help care for daughter while I work. I have to keep the 2 jobs.

Working the 2 jobs makes it extremely difficult, with no support, to even get my parenting time. I know that someone might say "make a sacrifice" but its either work 2 jobs and get to a financially stable place or 1 job and struggle.

It would seem ww may end up with everything she wants.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/31/11 12:11 PM
Well, tonight, I'm gonna take advantage of an opportunity to learn some kung fu. A Master teacher, whom I work with, offered to drastically reduce my rate because of the help I gave him during his marital problems.

Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/31/11 05:46 PM
So I found out ww has filed bankruptcy. I'm wondering if anyone else has had any experience with bankruptcy during divorce? Also, what about the ensuing custody battle and they both impact the divorce process? I've sent my lawyer these same questions but I wanted to see if others had similar experience while I await his reply...
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/01/11 01:39 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
So I found out ww has filed bankruptcy. I'm wondering if anyone else has had any experience with bankruptcy during divorce? Also, what about the ensuing custody battle and they both impact the divorce process? I've sent my lawyer these same questions but I wanted to see if others had similar experience while I await his reply...


Would still love to hear of anyone's experience with the above. I realized, too, that she's filing a BK but due to her poor credit, most of the stuff was in my name and on my credit. Her BK won't impact that meaning she won't be free and clear like she thinks. Maybe I'm wrong.

On another note, went to my first Kung Fu class tonight and I'm beat. It was great, though. I will definitely be going back.

I'm actually extra glad I went. It helped me get through the first Halloween not trick or treating with DD. Its okay though. I get stronger day by day. I have to keep thinking I'm exactly where God wants me to be.

Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/01/11 03:52 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Originally Posted by marksaysay
So I found out ww has filed bankruptcy. I'm wondering if anyone else has had any experience with bankruptcy during divorce? Also, what about the ensuing custody battle and they both impact the divorce process? I've sent my lawyer these same questions but I wanted to see if others had similar experience while I await his reply...


Would still love to hear of anyone's experience with the above. I realized, too, that she's filing a BK but due to her poor credit, most of the stuff was in my name and on my credit. Her BK won't impact that meaning she won't be free and clear like she thinks. Maybe I'm wrong.

On another note, went to my first Kung Fu class tonight and I'm beat. It was great, though. I will definitely be going back.

I'm actually extra glad I went. It helped me get through the first Halloween not trick or treating with DD. Its okay though. I get stronger day by day. I have to keep thinking I'm exactly where God wants me to be.

You should change your screen name to kato now :-).

On a serious note, if she files chapter 7 (most common), she is free and clear of all debt. It will all fall on you. It's a clean wipe of her credit and debt. she can exempt certain things (car for instance if she's paying on it), but you are left holding the bag.

Sorry I missed ur call. Ended up spending fam time and turned the phone down. I'm off tomorrow tho.

CV
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/01/11 01:29 PM
I was thinking last night, am I getting to the point of no return when it comes to my desire to reconcile? I really don't know if I'm there yet, but I may be getting there pretty soon. IDK. I am having fun just doing things by myself and for myself. I'm sure not having spoken to my wife since June has played a large part in that.

I was reading on another forum about a guy in a similar situation who's ww got dumped by her AP and came crying back. But he already had a gf and refused. I don't have a gf and I'm not looking for one since I'm still married but I seem to relate to him very well. Deep down I know it would be at least worth a shot to try for my daughter's sake but I'm not so sure it would be the best thing for me or for us anymore.

I really can't say for sure because ww is still in the thick of the fog but I'm really starting to wonder.
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/01/11 03:39 PM
Only time will tell Mark.
Don't try to pigeon hole what you would do.
Cross that bridge if you ever get there and your emotional state towards it will be in a totally different place....so....who knows your position by then. You don't even need to know now.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/01/11 05:28 PM
Originally Posted by reading
Only time will tell Mark.
Don't try to pigeon hole what you would do.
Cross that bridge if you ever get there and your emotional state towards it will be in a totally different place....so....who knows your position by then. You don't even need to know now.


Yeah,I do understand but I do know without a doubt that I CAN live without her and I'm having a pretty good time doing it right now.

I know I can't say for sure what I would do but it wasn't even something I ever imagined even thinking months ago. Now it's a consideration. Maybe it's a sign that progress is being made on my road to personal recovery. IDK.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/03/11 02:41 AM
I think I might have broken a toe at Kung Fu class tonight. I may be limping around both my jobs tomorrow but I think I'll make it. If I can get through what has easily been the most tramatic experience of my life, no toe is gonna keep me down.

It won't because in the words of the group, Destiny's Child, I'M A SURVIVOR!!!
Posted By: PSUBIKER Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/03/11 11:54 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
So I found out ww has filed bankruptcy. I'm wondering if anyone else has had any experience with bankruptcy during divorce? Also, what about the ensuing custody battle and they both impact the divorce process? I've sent my lawyer these same questions but I wanted to see if others had similar experience while I await his reply...

I posted on your other thread. I'm posting so others can see.

I filed for bankruptcy while the divorce was pending. Here are the effects:

1. No affect on custody. Don't even think about bringing it up in the custody hearing

2. She will have to declare all joint debts. Her accountabily for those debts will be discharged and everything will be on you. You won't be able to get her to pay some of those discharged debts in the property settlement either because the bankruptcy trumps the divorce decree.

3. Nothing on the property division side can get completed until her bankruptcy is discharged.

4. Was it chapter 7 or chapter 13 bankruptcy? Huge difference. Chapter 7 wipes out everything. Chapter 13 puts you on a payment plan. A means test determines what you are eligible for. You want to get at a minimum temporary orders for custody and child support in before the bankruptcy. In my case, without paying child support, I would have been chapter 13. With child support I paid included, I qualified for chapt 7.

5. If I were you, I would consider bankruptcy too.

6. If both of you file for bankruptcy, it makes property division much easier - there are no debts to divide and you are not taking from Peter to pay Paul on the final settlement.

7. One mistake we made was exWW and I filing for bankruptcy separate. ExWW was not able to scrape up enough funds to pay a lawyer until about 8 months after I filed my bankruptcy. It ended up delaying the property division by about a year.

Honestly? Bankruptcy gets a bad rap. It nukes your credit but it also allows you to rebuild - just running up debt while your credit rating tanks is much worse. I ended up filing for chapter 7 therefore wiping out all debts. We built a horse training and boarding business on debt and when she had her affair, all our business went elsewhere with no cashflow to pay the loans. Look at it as a bad business write off.

Fortunately, the only debts wiped out was credit card debt and business loans. All real debt (mortgage, cars, tractor, etc) was either sold and the loan paid in full or retained in the bankruptcy. The best money I ever spent was the 2K for the bankruptcy lawyer.

Here are some things I did prior to the bankruptcy:

- found an apartment to live in with a long enough lease to get me at least a year out from the discharge

- bought a car to replace my car that was falling apart and retained the new car as part of the bankruptcy. Bankruptcy court did not bat an eye - the car and my apartment where well within what someone with my means could reasonably expect to own. Don't go buying a 90K Porsche or a McMansion - that will raise a lot of eyebrows. Just be reasonable and show you are being reasponsible with money. They will work with you.

- I filed before my divorce started to get really expensive with lawyer fees. My lawyer knows he isn't going to be stiffed by a bankruptcy.

I filed in July 2009, I was discharged in Oct 2009 so I am two years out. In Aug 2010, I rented a really nice townhouse. While I was looking, the realtors all said I was a prime candidate for renting because I had no debt. It made me a very viable candidate for a renter. In March 2009, I got two credit cards with about a $250 limit on both. I always keep a $50 balance on each every month. In two years since my discharge, my credit score has gone from 500 to just a hair under 700. If I wanted to, I could qualify for a very competitive mortgage with the USDA with no money down to buy my townhouse. I haven't yet because of my custody battle but it is in my long term plans.

Bottom line, it's not the end of the world.
Posted By: PSUBIKER Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/03/11 12:07 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Had an absolute blast last night. Although its not something I plan on doing regularly (I'm not a bar/club guy), it was still fun.

Also, Ive to realize I probably don't have much of a chance at getting DD. I work 60 - 70 hrs a week with no family around to help care for daughter while I work. I have to keep the 2 jobs.

Working the 2 jobs makes it extremely difficult, with no support, to even get my parenting time. I know that someone might say "make a sacrifice" but its either work 2 jobs and get to a financially stable place or 1 job and struggle.

It would seem ww may end up with everything she wants.

You are approaching it wrong. Drop the part time job so you can be around your daughter. Better yet, try and negotiate something like a 2-2-5 arrangement (Mon-Tues with you, Wed - Thurs with mom, swap weekends).

If you go with the mentality of having to work two jobs, you are establishing status quo with the courts. Therefore, you will get the Every Other Weekend Daddy Sc#$%job custody arrangement. This will mean you are paying 20-25% of your TAKE HOME PAY in child support. Since you have been working two jobs for awhile, your income for child support purposes will be computed on the two jobs. So, you will be stuck working two jobs so you can pay the 25% of the combined income to your STBX. Look at it this way, you will be working to support the government and your ex.

If you have a shared (50/50 residential time) custody arrangement, you have a very compelling arguement to the court that you can not work the two jobs because you have to be home for your daughter. If you divorce, you are not going to have the same standard of living anyways.

If you are struggling financially and part of the reason is crush debt, you may need to consider bankruptcy. Better to nuke and rebuild than to keep spinning your wheels.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/03/11 01:32 PM
The financial struggles are not due to crush debt. Its due to more going out than coming in. Just regular bills and the bear minimum at that.

Its almost like I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. If I don't have a second job, I can't live. All my bills were behind and now I'm almost caught up. I never had any extra money to do things to help me "move on". Now I do and I'm enjoying life again, but it seems to have hurt me when it comes to my fight for my daughter. I needed it for the continued divorce/custody litigation and now I work too much. I CAN'T WIN.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/03/11 07:32 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
The financial struggles are not due to crush debt. Its due to more going out than coming in. Just regular bills and the bear minimum at that.

Its almost like I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. If I don't have a second job, I can't live. All my bills were behind and now I'm almost caught up. I never had any extra money to do things to help me "move on". Now I do and I'm enjoying life again, but it seems to have hurt me when it comes to my fight for my daughter. I needed it for the continued divorce/custody litigation and now I work too much. I CAN'T WIN.


Any advise on this predicament? I'm just ready to give up on everything...
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/03/11 07:59 PM
Can you get a room mate to cover some expenses?
Can you find a way to live cheaper bill wise?
Can you reconstruct your life to be workable with less work?

That's all I can think of.......
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/03/11 08:21 PM
Its as cheap as can be. I have a 2 br apartment (with one br belonging to daughter) where I only pay electric. I have no cable, no internet, no home phone (just my cell with cheapest plan I could get by with). I only use lights at home when I need to. I don't watch much TV unless its a movie at bedtime. What else can I do?

I don't do a lot outside of the Kung Fu classes which don't really cost anything because I helped the instructor during his marriage crisis and he wanted to show his appreciation. It doesn't cost money to go shoot the breeze with my buddies a couple of nights a week. I don't drink or do drugs. I'm at a bare minimum. I can't afford mediation, the GAL, the rest of my lawyers retainer without another job.
Posted By: PSUBIKER Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/03/11 09:16 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Its as cheap as can be. I have a 2 br apartment (with one br belonging to daughter) where I only pay electric. I have no cable, no internet, no home phone (just my cell with cheapest plan I could get by with). I only use lights at home when I need to. I don't watch much TV unless its a movie at bedtime. What else can I do?

I don't do a lot outside of the Kung Fu classes which don't really cost anything because I helped the instructor during his marriage crisis and he wanted to show his appreciation. It doesn't cost money to go shoot the breeze with my buddies a couple of nights a week. I don't drink or do drugs. I'm at a bare minimum. I can't afford mediation, the GAL, the rest of my lawyers retainer without another job.

A few things - it looks like you have done a lot of stuff to pare down as best you could.

You might be able to get away with a 1 bedroom apartment - your daughter sleeps in your bed when you have her and you sleep on the couch. I would do this as a last resort.

Here's what's nice about the 2-2-5 arrangement. Let's say mom has them Mon, Tues, you have them Wed, THurs, then swap weekends. That gives you two weeknights every week to do a part time job. Then, you can try and swing working every other weekend or use that for you. It gives you more options for part time work than say a week on / week off schedule.

You gotta get creative. Look at it this way, what if god forbid your WW had passed away instead of having an affair. You would have had to totally re-arrange your life to take care of your daughter. A divorce isn't much different.

What are your expenses (no dollars, just what they are)? What are your temporary orders for spousal support, etc?

If you are paying a mortgage and an apartment, something is going to have to give.Very few people who aren't being targeted by the "Occupy Wall Street" protesters can afford this.

If you have a house and your WW lives in it and isn't paying anything, try and rectify that.

- Get her to kick in some rent (unlikely)
- Sell it, give her a bigger chunk of equity than otherwise entitled to give her a deposit and a couple months rent for a new place
- if no equity, rent it out.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/03/11 10:11 PM
I just want to t/j for a sec -

PSU, thank you for being able and willing to support mark with your unique insight. I'm always glad to see you posting to him, because I know you will give him the benefit of what you learned during your very painful experience.

end t/j.
Posted By: PSUBIKER Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/04/11 12:35 PM
One other thing, if you haven't yet, read David Ramsey's Total Money Makeover. What the book does is make you think about the tough choices:

- selling the house and renting something much smaller and cheaper
- get rid of the $500/month SUV and get a 10 year old beater car. Chances are your repair bills will be less than what you are paying on the car note.
- kick the Starbucks habit
- it gives you a plan if you are severely in the hole and how to get out of it to reduce long term damage (paying the mortgage and car loan before credit card payments, etc.)


I don't care what anyone says, unless you are extremly wealthy, divorce is a financial nuclear bomb. Many people are struggling and are in the same boat as you. In a divorce, there are two housholds to support instead of one.


Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/04/11 01:36 PM
I don't have a house payment. Our marital home is in foreclosure. She moved out of it a month after I did because she said she couldn't stay there and have peace.

I don't have a car payment right now. I'm driving a car (her car) with 166,000 miles on it. We agreed at the beginning (when things were amicable) that she could use my car for 2 months and I would get it back. Then she told me she would only give it back after I went to the bank and refinanced it. I told her that wasn't our agreement. She said if I didn't, she would go sell it (which I knew she couldn't do). I found out in June that she went and refinanced it (taking my name off of it) without my consent or approval.

Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/04/11 04:08 PM
I think you could follow up on the refinancing /fraud aspect. That she was able to take you name off the title without your consent ...... someone was in error and ask your attorney about re-acquiring the car and then you can sell it and have some funds.
Work, I know but don't talk to her about it unless you decide to follow up on that.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/04/11 04:32 PM
I thought about that, too. I think I will talk to my lawyer about that.
Posted By: PSUBIKER Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/04/11 06:44 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
I don't have a house payment. Our marital home is in foreclosure. She moved out of it a month after I did because she said she couldn't stay there and have peace.

I don't have a car payment right now. I'm driving a car (her car) with 166,000 miles on it. We agreed at the beginning (when things were amicable) that she could use my car for 2 months and I would get it back. Then she told me she would only give it back after I went to the bank and refinanced it. I told her that wasn't our agreement. She said if I didn't, she would go sell it (which I knew she couldn't do). I found out in June that she went and refinanced it (taking my name off of it) without my consent or approval.

Good. You shouldn't be liable for the debt. If she takes it to court, she will have to prove you consented to the refinance.

You may be on the hook for paying her a share of the blue book value of her car.

BTW, in a divorce situation, if it isn't signed by the judge, it isn't an agreement. Keep that in mind.



Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/04/11 07:30 PM
Originally Posted by PSUBIKER
Originally Posted by marksaysay
I don't have a house payment. Our marital home is in foreclosure. She moved out of it a month after I did because she said she couldn't stay there and have peace.

I don't have a car payment right now. I'm driving a car (her car) with 166,000 miles on it. We agreed at the beginning (when things were amicable) that she could use my car for 2 months and I would get it back. Then she told me she would only give it back after I went to the bank and refinanced it. I told her that wasn't our agreement. She said if I didn't, she would go sell it (which I knew she couldn't do). I found out in June that she went and refinanced it (taking my name off of it) without my consent or approval.

Good. You shouldn't be liable for the debt. If she takes it to court, she will have to prove you consented to the refinance.

You may be on the hook for paying her a share of the blue book value of her car.

BTW, in a divorce situation, if it isn't signed by the judge, it isn't an agreement. Keep that in mind.


I do understand that about the car but I still have the text exchange where she says if I don't refinance, she was going to sell the car. I could also get a signed statement from our close family friend (a middle aged women to whom i exposed to and who also says ww has lost her mind) whom my wife made the same statement to. I guess she will just have to explain that.
Posted By: PSUBIKER Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/05/11 01:55 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
[quote=PSUBIKER][quote=marksaysay]
I do understand that about the car but I still have the text exchange where she says if I don't refinance, she was going to sell the car. I could also get a signed statement from our close family friend (a middle aged women to whom i exposed to and who also says ww has lost her mind) whom my wife made the same statement to. I guess she will just have to explain that.

If the car was entirely in your name (or even joint), how the heck did she get it refinanced? I would imagine the bank would have wanted the title and registration switched to her and in most states, both parties have to go to DMV to do that.

A judge isn't going to care about your text exchange. Texts are a horrible way to communicate IMPORTANT stuff during a divorce. Don't use them for negotiations. Use email.

Your friend's affidavit to the court will get thrown out because signed affidavits have very little credibility with the court as the person making the statement can't be cross examined to determine credibility.

A couple of questions.

1. Have either of you filed for divorce yet? If it's been filed, that should put an injunction on dissipation of assets, running up debt, etc. Her refinancing the car unilaterally without your consent / knowledge would be in violation of this.

2. Did she refinance before or after her bankruptcy? If before, she would have to reaffirm the car as part of her bankruptcy to keep it.

Here's some homework - go to the bankruptcy court and pull a copy of her bankruptcy filing. They will be glad to help you out. You will find a treasure trove of information as to her financial status at the time she filed for bankruptcy. It will do two things:

1. Verify her financial status in the divorce filings.
2. If there are big differences between her bankruptcy filing and her financial disclosures for the divorce, even a pro se litigant would shred her to pieces under cross examination and not even Johnny Cochran can object to it.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/05/11 02:13 AM
The car was joint and I was the primary. This is what has me puzzled as well. As far as the text and affidavit, I may have been grasping but I do have them if I needed them.

The divorce was filed by her last November (after I called om) so this has been going on for a while. The refinance happened back in June or July. She filed the BK in august or September. I'm not so sure she's thinking at all (well, I'm pretty sure she hasn't). She doesn't have a lawyer and expects that all of this will play out in her favor. She has my car, my daughter, a new life, a new relationship, no debt (after the BK), a bunch of single friends supporting her, a family that has turned the other cheek on her adultery and everything else going for her. I just don't think things will work out the way she wants them to. I may be wrong. I'm gonna do my best to put a snag in her plans.
Posted By: PSUBIKER Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/05/11 09:42 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
The car was joint and I was the primary. This is what has me puzzled as well. As far as the text and affidavit, I may have been grasping but I do have them if I needed them.

The divorce was filed by her last November (after I called om) so this has been going on for a while. The refinance happened back in June or July. She filed the BK in august or September. I'm not so sure she's thinking at all (well, I'm pretty sure she hasn't). She doesn't have a lawyer and expects that all of this will play out in her favor. She has my car, my daughter, a new life, a new relationship, no debt (after the BK), a bunch of single friends supporting her, a family that has turned the other cheek on her adultery and everything else going for her. I just don't think things will work out the way she wants them to. I may be wrong. I'm gonna do my best to put a snag in her plans.

Very good information. Check your divorce paperwork to see if an injunction is in place with the property division. Then next question is does your care have any equity in it? I.E blue book worth more than what she refinanced it for. That equity needs to be accounted for in the property division.

Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/06/11 02:37 AM
Not sure bout equity in car but does that matter.if I'm trying to get it back? Don't think there was an injunction but I'm not sure. If there wasn't, is that good or bad?
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/07/11 12:34 AM
So I was at my second job tonight and after a month, someone finally started asking about my ww (I worked there when we married 11 yrs ago and many are still there). She asked if she was still around and if we were divorced. I said yes and no, respectively.

She then starts asking about why and what happened. I didn't come right out and tell her but she put it together based on her line of questioning. Then she gets a saddened look in her face and I asked what's wrong. She said, "you just seem so positive about everything." I just said, "being positive is the only way to be".
Posted By: New_Path Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/07/11 01:14 AM
Mark, sending my support for you. You know in time it will get better. You have come a very long way with being positive.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/07/11 01:19 AM
You will need to tell people about what happened when they ask, just be very careful with your boundaries. Remember, no opposite sex friendships while married. smile
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/07/11 01:24 AM
What's there not to be positive about? As a man of faith, 2 scriptures have done wonders for my whole outlook on things.

Psalm 37:4 - Delight thyself in the Lord and he will give you the desires of your heart. (As God has become my delight, my desire has changed from marital recovery to simply more of Him in my life. He always will give you more of Him if you want Him).

Romans 8:28 - For all things work together for the good of them that love God... (Knowing that this awful experience will have a positive outcome someway, somehow is enough to optimistic no matter the circumstances).

Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/07/11 01:30 AM
Originally Posted by Scotland
You will need to tell people about what happened when they ask, just be very careful with your boundaries. Remember, no opposite sex friendships while married. smile


I've already exposed to people that are close to us. Is it necessary that I tell everyone who asks now? I know I'm not the one who did this but I'm hesitant because I don't want to make it seem as if I'm being vindictive by telling everyone.

Also, she was just a coworker who knew my wife and I years ago. She's happily married and I know her husband fairly well. I don't even look at her or anyone with any type of interest. The conversation lasted about 5 mins. Then I left.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/08/11 03:36 AM
So I was sitting and thinking. Since April, I have had one conversation with ww. I've seen her only twice (both at court hearings). Other than those instances, there has been no contact.

I realized today that I'm beginning to have less and less to post regarding feelings or her adultery or my willingness to reconcile or love or anything. I guess this is all a part of what plan b is about.

I realized that I'm happy and joyful and really overall at peace with everything. Just today, i had several people at work ask why i'm always humming. I'm living my life almost as if she no longer exists. This has definitely been a long, educational experience and one that I wouldn't wish on anyone. It is also, I believe, necessary for me to get to where I need to be.

I just got finished purchasing tickets for a trip home (Texas) and it will be the 1st without her. Its okay. I'm moving in a good direction.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/08/11 03:25 PM
Mark, it IS what Plan B is all about.

It does take time, of course. I was told many times that recovery is a marathon not a sprint. That holds true for Personal Recovery as well.

Keep it up.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/08/11 09:03 PM
So I have a question:

I still don't know who the OM is in my situation but since a few people told me ww is posting info about him on FB, I could probably find out through friends if I wanted.

Should I do this and do exposure to his list of friends or should I just let it be since we are so far in the divorce process?

I may be in a similar situation as another BH here. No matter who knows or whether the A is killed, she will probably just try to find somebody else.

Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/08/11 10:31 PM
I will defer to the vets here. I was in a sitch earlier this year where my mom found OW's FB page wide open. It listed her mom(whom I had missed during exposure) and I asked offline. I was told to Plan B and stay in it. That is what I would suggest.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/08/11 10:42 PM
I've never exposed to any of OM's friends or family because I didn't know who he was. I could probably find our, though.

It was just a thought...
Posted By: Gamma Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/08/11 11:23 PM
Marksay,

Should I do this and do exposure to his list of friends... she will probably just try to find somebody else.

Problem here, as I see it, is that if you don't know who the OM is you don't known how much of a danger he is to your children.

I think that by exposing OM you send a strong message that you will defend your family, and that is important when your children are away from you. It's a bit like a skull impaled on a fence. This might have a dampening effect on your WWs carousing about as well.

God Bless
Gamma

Posted By: BillCarolina Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/09/11 01:35 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
What's there not to be positive about? As a man of faith, 2 scriptures have done wonders for my whole outlook on things.

Psalm 37:4 - Delight thyself in the Lord and he will give you the desires of your heart. (As God has become my delight, my desire has changed from marital recovery to simply more of Him in my life. He always will give you more of Him if you want Him).

Romans 8:28 - For all things work together for the good of them that love God... (Knowing that this awful experience will have a positive outcome someway, somehow is enough to optimistic no matter the circumstances).

God DOES work in mysterious ways!......I needed to hear that TODAY!!!
Thanks MSS!!!
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/09/11 05:54 AM
So I've got om first name and phone number. Should I call it?
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/09/11 06:01 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
So I've got om first name and phone number. Should I call it?

I'm gonna be in trouble... I should be in bed. My vote is no. Not if you are in plan B with a court hearing coming. Unless you call from a payphone and get his wife...

CV
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/09/11 06:02 AM
Isn't plan b about NC with ww. That doesn't include om.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/09/11 06:13 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Isn't plan b about NC with ww. That doesn't include om.

Mark, my thought on this is degrees of seperation. Contact with OM get back to WW and WW drags it up in court and things are drawn out.

What would the purpose be of calling him at this point?

CV
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/09/11 06:18 AM
Sure it would get back to ww but what would It hurt? How can it hurt me in court?

Btw, she filed chapter 13.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/09/11 07:29 AM
I'm not gonna do it. My wife is the one who's doing this, not him or anyone else.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/09/11 07:52 AM
I had seen so many with fb exposure and thought if I could find om info, I could do that. Maybe its just desperation. I never got a chance to plan a.

IDK. Tonight has been a bad one. Maybe its because the the divorce seems so near and I still love my wife. What a difference from yesterdays post, huh?

I have come a long way in a year. I e moved on in many, many ways. One thing I can't shake is the fact that I do still love my wife. Arggggggg....
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/09/11 11:29 AM
Goodbye all. I realized, after the meltdown of last night, that I'm not over my wife yet. I realized, as the tear still roll now, that my episode was brought on by reading so many stories and seeing so many things I never was able to do and thinking "what if". What if I can expose the om like so many others? Would that help? Would that be the one.thing I didn't do that could change things? Would that be the one thing that could help end this ordeal?

I'd made some monumental steps in the past 3-4 months but I took a monstrous step backwards last night. This place has helped me greatly but I can't keep coming and reading and thinking these "what ifs". I refuse to have another night like last night.

You all have really helped me and I don't think I could have even gotten this far without you all. But if I stay here any longer, I'll go crazy.

Thanks all and goodbye.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/09/11 01:54 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Goodbye all. I realized, after the meltdown of last night, that I'm not over my wife yet. I realized, as the tear still roll now, that my episode was brought on by reading so many stories and seeing so many things I never was able to do and thinking "what if". What if I can expose the om like so many others? Would that help? Would that be the one.thing I didn't do that could change things? Would that be the one thing that could help end this ordeal?

I'd made some monumental steps in the past 3-4 months but I took a monstrous step backwards last night. This place has helped me greatly but I can't keep coming and reading and thinking these "what ifs". I refuse to have another night like last night.

You all have really helped me and I don't think I could have even gotten this far without you all. But if I stay here any longer, I'll go crazy.

Thanks all and goodbye.


Mark,

You are extremely triggered. I don't think you are thinking clearly on this because the d is getting closer. Your wife is not interested in reconciliation and hasn't been for a year now. triggers **DO** set us back, but they don't have to be "resets" where we start over again. They fade. Part of the problem is you, not the list.

Frankly, I see you shooting yourself in the foot over and over again. You find ways to "make contact"... You have friends tell you about WW's FB page, you spend time finding OM (Which om is this in the last year? 3 or 4?), and you keep contact through the pastor and others. Not direct communication mind you, but "reminders" and little bits of info here and there. You have never really done plan B.

I also would like to remind you that you cannot take someone else's sitch and apply it to yourself. They are different people and while the effects and signs of A's are all the same, there are unique dynamics to every situation. Some WS' respond one way when exposed and others another. If we were all the same every time, then exposure would always work...100% of the time. Your wife is "out" with her affair. Exposing on FB would do what? You have already exposed, everyone already knows. You have a restraining order and don't want to be perceived as harassing her.

I'm sorry Mark, but you really need to stick around here and follow the advice on **Your** thread and not someone else's.

And you know I'm telling you this cuz I love ya bro.

CV





Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/09/11 02:22 PM
Mark, i understand. I even now see other people's sitchs and think, "I could have done so much better." It is all a part of Plan B. It really is. I had those thoughts, when I was triggered, or when I had "small" contact(through the kids telling me things). But you know what, when it clears, I usually feel better, and KNOW that I did the best I could. What also helps is going back over my own thread and SEEING what I did, and how far I have come.

The only thing I worry about is that the longer you are away from here, the more likely you are to break Plan B. I have see it countless of times. Someone leaves MB because it triggers them, or they think they understand it, and don't need the support anymore, only to come back and tell us they broke Plan B, or they are themselves wayward.

Take a break, get your head on straight and come back better.

Oh, and BTW, Plan B is also NO CONTACT WITH OTHER PERSON. Come on Mark, you knew that.
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/09/11 03:13 PM
Mark.
You are letting your emotions rule you versus cut and dried implementation of solid plans to ride this ride.

Other sites will confuse you more than this one.

If you are on several sites, you will be on an additional roller coaster to the actual marriage one. You will be getting conflicting input from each group of people from each forum that will be difficult to work with emotionally.

Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/09/11 03:19 PM
Originally Posted by reading
Mark.
You are letting your emotions rule you versus cut and dried implementation of solid plans to ride this ride.

Other sites will confuse you more than this one.

If you are on several sites, you will be on an additional roller coaster to the actual marriage one. You will be getting conflicting input from each group of people from each forum that will be difficult to work with emotionally.

This is one of the problems... He posts on other sites.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/10/11 12:27 AM
Originally Posted by celticvoyager
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Goodbye all. I realized, after the meltdown of last night, that I'm not over my wife yet. I realized, as the tear still roll now, that my episode was brought on by reading so many stories and seeing so many things I never was able to do and thinking "what if". What if I can expose the om like so many others? Would that help? Would that be the one.thing I didn't do that could change things? Would that be the one thing that could help end this ordeal?

I'd made some monumental steps in the past 3-4 months but I took a monstrous step backwards last night. This place has helped me greatly but I can't keep coming and reading and thinking these "what ifs". I refuse to have another night like last night.

You all have really helped me and I don't think I could have even gotten this far without you all. But if I stay here any longer, I'll go crazy.

Thanks all and goodbye.


Mark,

You are extremely triggered. I don't think you are thinking clearly on this because the d is getting closer. Your wife is not interested in reconciliation and hasn't been for a year now. triggers **DO** set us back, but they don't have to be "resets" where we start over again. They fade. Part of the problem is you, not the list.

Frankly, I see you shooting yourself in the foot over and over again. You find ways to "make contact"... You have friends tell you about WW's FB page, you spend time finding OM (Which om is this in the last year? 3 or 4?), and you keep contact through the pastor and others. Not direct communication mind you, but "reminders" and little bits of info here and there. You have never really done plan B.

I also would like to remind you that you cannot take someone else's sitch and apply it to yourself. They are different people and while the effects and signs of A's are all the same, there are unique dynamics to every situation. Some WS' respond one way when exposed and others another. If we were all the same every time, then exposure would always work...100% of the time. Your wife is "out" with her affair. Exposing on FB would do what? You have already exposed, everyone already knows. You have a restraining order and don't want to be perceived as harassing her.

I'm sorry Mark, but you really need to stick around here and follow the advice on **Your** thread and not someone else's.

And you know I'm telling you this cuz I love ya bro.

CV


I guess the ride from last bight is over. Spent much time in prayer and with spiritual counsel and I'm in a much better place. Cv, you are right in that my wife hasn't expressed a desire to reconcile but I prefer to call it what it really is. She's willfully chosen to live in sin. And sin can be overcome.

Yes, I understand every situation is different. But the D is no closer than it was when we went to the was supposed to be the final hearing in march or the botched mediation in may or the failed mediation in august. As a matter of fact, we're further away given that now we have to await custody process with its investigation and such. We still have to do mediation. Oh, yeah. There's also the chapter 13 BK that will likely slow things down. We may even have to wait for vehicles to be sold because she refuses to give me my car and I refuse to let her just take it from me. So, we're really not that close.

And understand I don't go around asking about ww. People give me unsolicited info. Now the deal with the om was all me. And it was not for the purpose of reexposing to her realm of influence, but his, which was never done. But you're probably right in that she would continue to play revolving door.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/10/11 12:32 AM
Originally Posted by celticvoyager
Originally Posted by reading
Mark.
You are letting your emotions rule you versus cut and dried implementation of solid plans to ride this ride.

Other sites will confuse you more than this one.

If you are on several sites, you will be on an additional roller coaster to the actual marriage one. You will be getting conflicting input from each group of people from each forum that will be difficult to work with emotionally.

This is one of the problems... He posts on other sites.


As far as other sites go, I don't actually go there for advice. I started a thread there before I knew about MB so I do still update for those who have followed my thread (its 55 pages long now). Most of my time there now is actually spent promoting and pushing the MB principles that I do believe in. If say they don't like reading books, I outline the HAHN or SAW concepts to them and further direct as questions arise.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/10/11 02:08 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
I guess the ride from last bight is over. Spent much time in prayer and with spiritual counsel and I'm in a much better place. Cv, you are right in that my wife hasn't expressed a desire to reconcile but I prefer to call it what it really is. She's willfully chosen to live in sin. And sin can be overcome.

Yes, sin can be overcome. But we can never overcome sin on our own. Our proclivity is towards sin. Remember Paul's words in Romans 3? Rom 3:10-12 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; (11) no one understands; no one seeks for God. (12) All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."

Yet God is rich in mercy in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for the ungodly (Romans 5:6).

What she needs is the Gospel. Only the gospel will enable her to overcome this. If you are going to do anything for her in plan B, pray for her


Yes, I understand every situation is different. But the D is no closer than it was when we went to the was supposed to be the final hearing in march or the botched mediation in may or the failed mediation in august. As a matter of fact, we're further away given that now we have to await custody process with its investigation and such. We still have to do mediation. Oh, yeah. There's also the chapter 13 BK that will likely slow things down. We may even have to wait for vehicles to be sold because she refuses to give me my car and I refuse to let her just take it from me. So, we're really not that close.

the custody shouldn't affect divorce. Chapter 13 most likely means she will have to continue to pay on a payment plan. it isn't a complete dissolution of debt. I doubt that will slow things down either. Mediation will slow things I think, and so will dividing the debt.


And understand I don't go around asking about ww. People give me unsolicited info. Now the deal with the om was all me. And it was not for the purpose of reexposing to her realm of influence, but his, which was never done. But you're probably right in that she would continue to play revolving door.

I know you don't my friend, but you can ask everyone to not volunteer info anymore.
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/10/11 03:09 AM
Originally Posted by Scotland
The only thing I worry about is that the longer you are away from here, the more likely you are to break Plan B. I have see it countless of times. Someone leaves MB because it triggers them, or they think they understand it, and don't need the support anymore, only to come back and tell us they broke Plan B, or they are themselves wayward.
[Linked Image from htguide.com]

I'm sorry you're hurting Mark. I agree, take some time. We'll be here.

Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/10/11 07:35 PM
I guess it's all over. Had meeting with GAL today. She said that she had already knew that ww had another man in her life, and even knew it wasn't the same that resulted in PO. She said she knew that my daughter knows about him. I showed her the facebook pic of daughter and she said it doesn't concern her that much. She said it's no different than being in a swimsuit, except she's topless. Basically, she said I don't have a chance at custody.

She said except that you are getting a divorce and move on. My efforts have been valiant for my marriage and my family, but I believe it is now over. Time to write a new chapter.

Signing off.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/10/11 08:04 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Goodbye all. I realized, after the meltdown of last night, that I'm not over my wife yet.

Mark you are far from being done in terms of personal recovery. The rollercoaster is still spinning you along. Stay in your seat till the ride comes to a complete STOP.

I just dont want to see you become one of those BSs who makes sporadic contact with their spouse and lets them jerk them around for cake eating.

Nor do I want to see you fall prey to some inappropriate woman who meets a paltry need because you are starving.

These are very real pitfalls for those walking with the wound of betrayal. to avoid them, you need a plan.

Originally Posted by celticvoyager
You find ways to "make contact"... You have friends tell you about WW's FB page, you spend time finding OM (Which om is this in the last year? 3 or 4?), and you keep contact through the pastor and others. Not direct communication mind you, but "reminders" and little bits of info here and there. You have never really done plan B.


I think it is very hard for men to go dark and let their WWs become invisible to them. But you cannot make any headway with healing until you go dark. And until you are healed, your decisions mean nothing.

Every piece of news about her reopens the wound. Close that door tight. Just sit back and put yourself first for a bit before making any decisions. A proper Plan B is about you. What are you doing for you? What is your life being built up to be?

How many plans have you made to do stuff that's fun for the coming weeks?

Any bucket list stuff? Your career?

You are as strong as you build yourself to be in Plan B. It is not about her at all.
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/10/11 08:10 PM
Mark,
You can not control your WW.
You can not control the advice others give you (the GAL, us, others)

You can control yourself.

Please choose to have the bestest time with your child while with her, to release WW to the powers that be and to turn away from her while she is wayward. To turn away over and over and over again as she is continuing to be against your love.

Put your love for her in a pocket and think fondly of it and move onward, away from her unless the day comes when she runs up to you with the right attitude to reconsider her.

You can only control yourself.

That is plan B.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/10/11 09:36 PM
I was sitting here giving myself the little pep talk saying "Mark, just accept that you're getting a divorce". Over and over I repeated it and I'm not even sad or anything.

But then I realized that I've done this before. Before what was to be our final hearing in march, I did it days prior and walked in there ready to move on. But it didn't happen.

Before our 1st failed mediation attempt in may, I rehearsed it over and over and was ready to get things settled and move on. We never even got a chance to start because of a mix-up. It didn't happen.

When we went in August to another attempted mediation attempt, I told myself the same thing but I did raise the question about custody. Well, because of that it didn't happen.

Now, 8 months later, yet again I'm telling myself to move on. I guess, in some ways there is still disappointment about the end of my marriage. There is disappointment about my ww and her lack of repentance for what she's done. There is some disappointment about what seems to be a failed attempt at custody of my daughter.

But there is also some disappointment in that everytime I give myself this talk and get to a comfortable level of acceptance, the door does not shut and the emotions return. I'm almost afraid to let go and move on to only see that door remain open yet again.

How do you deal with that?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/10/11 09:40 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
But there is also some disappointment in that everytime I give myself this talk and get to a comfortable level of acceptance, the door does not shut and the emotions return. I'm almost afraid to let go and move on to only see that door remain open yet again.

Feelings follow actions. I am not hearing a lot about what you are doing for you.

The ongoing on/off stuff with the divorce will put you through the mill.

You need to be in no contact with her, hear nothing about her. Obviously the divorce is messing with that. I would just work hard to get to a quiet space.
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/10/11 09:52 PM
Time.

It takes time.

Time is chugging along and it will happen.

Like taking a grain of sand from one pile and moving it to another. You don't see it happen all at once, but eventually you go "I'll be......that pile is bigger now and that one is smaller".....and eventually the original pile will be gone.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/11/11 01:42 AM
People have been interested in what's going on:

Well, part of the reason for the 2nd job (other than my brief and unsuccessful fight for DD)was extra money to enjoy life again. I was able to play on a pool league team 2 wks ago for 1st time in a year. Went our karaokeing with coworkers a couple.nights later.

Obviously, the 2 jobs keep me busy but I also take Kung Fu lessons twice a week. I'm at church 3 nights a week. Wednesday bible study, Friday rehearsal for praise and worship team (which I only joined a month or so ago) and Sunday for worship service. When I'm not working on Tues or Thursday, I play dominoes with some friends. Also, during the spring/summer, I gave hitting lessons every night after work.

Other than the fact that the love remains for ww, I think I've done pretty good at moving on.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/11/11 12:49 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
People have been interested in what's going on:

Well, part of the reason for the 2nd job (other than my brief and unsuccessful fight for DD)was extra money to enjoy life again. I was able to play on a pool league team 2 wks ago for 1st time in a year. Went our karaokeing with coworkers a couple.nights later.

Obviously, the 2 jobs keep me busy but I also take Kung Fu lessons twice a week. I'm at church 3 nights a week. Wednesday bible study, Friday rehearsal for praise and worship team (which I only joined a month or so ago) and Sunday for worship service. When I'm not working on Tues or Thursday, I play dominoes with some friends. Also, during the spring/summer, I gave hitting lessons every night after work.

Other than the fact that the love remains for ww, I think I've done pretty good at moving on.

Hopefully my previouse post dispels the idea that I'm sitting around the house pining away for my wife. I keep myself quite busy.

But what may be the final chapter in this book goes like this:

I met with the GAL yesterday, whom had already spoken with wife (who told her about her boyfriend) and had interviewed daughter (who admitted to knowing about mommy's boyfriend). She said daughter seems very healthy and unaffected by all of this. She stated she saw no reason to give me custody and take her out of ww home. I showed her the fb pic (with daughter only in panties) and she said she wasn't bothered by it and that it wasn't much different than a bathing suit minus the top.

I said all of that to say the only fight left fighting is over before it really began and I have nothing left to fight for. The reasons to fight (first for my marriage and then for my daughter) are all gone. And I don't think there is any more fight in me left. I put up a valiant effort but there are fights you just can't win.

Afterwards, I told my lawyer to just speed the divorce process along. I won't put up a fight for anything at mediation. Our house is already being foreclosed. Her BK is taking care of her debt. Once I finish paying off lawyer, the costs of GAL and mediation, I will file a BK myself and just start fresh. I'm not gonna fight her over my car she was supposed have given back to me in march. She went and refinanced it without my consent and now.she can.just keep it. It'll soon be over and a new chapter will start.

The GAL did tell me to petition to have the PO thrown out since judge knows that ww violated it repeatedly (she told him at status hearing and he was furious). I told lawyer to do so but that NC would continue perpetually. A third party will be the way we communicate from here on out (its been that way since June). If I can't be what I vowed to be, her husband, lover, and friend, then I will be none of them. I will continue to do what I can for and with my daughter, but my ww will no longer be a part of my life (that's what she wanted anyways, isn't it).

Inspite of it all, I have no hatred, malice, or anything for my wife. I hate what's she's done to me, our family, and even to herself. But I still love her and I always will. Some may say that I'm crazy. But I don't care really about what others think on that subject. The love I have for her is only possible because of God. Divorce will not make me.stop loving her. Its a choice and one that I make WITH ABSOLUTELY NO REGRETS.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/11/11 01:02 PM
Quote
Inspite of it all, I have no hatred, malice, or anything for my wife. I hate what's she's done to me, our family, and even to herself. But I still love her and I always will. Some may say that I'm crazy. But I don't care really about what others think on that subject. The love I have for her is only possible because of God. Divorce will not make me.stop loving her. Its a choice and one that I make WITH ABSOLUTELY NO REGRETS.

I don't think you are crazy, at all.

I can see how you are ready to get moving along with this D, as it seems that there is no fight left for you. I would only suggest that you not make it easy, and just roll over. Get your lawyer to get the best outcome he can for you. And you KNOW that you did everything you can, so you can always hold your head up HIGH about it. That to me is worth a lot, even when the marriage doesn't recover.

I agree with getting the RO dropped, and with staying dark with her anyways.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/11/11 02:35 PM
Scotland, there is nothing left to really dispute. There is nothing that she can take from me nor is there anything I really want or need from her. The fight is over. The final chapter has seemingly been written and the book is finished.

I have survived and I will continue to survive. Yes, I know I did the best I could and all that I could do. I will not hang my head down in defeat because I've nothing to be hang my head about.

Yes, I did all I could because I did want my family to survive this turmoil. I did want to continue to have her in my life because of my vows, because of my commitment, because of my daughter, because of my deep and unconditional love. But this last year has taught me that I don't NEED her in my life. I can survive. I have survived. I WILL survive.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/11/11 02:48 PM
Quote
she said she wasn't bothered by it and that it wasn't much different than a bathing suit minus the top.
Well, gee. I guess she's right. crazy

faint
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/12/11 04:59 AM
In talking to my pastor today, I made it very clear to him that there was no more fight in me left. I told him I fought to break up my ww's affair(s), my marriage and family, my daughter and now there was nothing left to fight for.

As I was making these statements, he did nothing but smile. When I was done, he told me that he'd prayed that one day I would come to this realization, that I would reach the point of despondency and helplessness. He told me what I'd known for a long time, that my ww is a "spiritual POW" and that it has never really been my battle to fight.

He then had me read 2 Chronicles 20:15b "Thus says the Lord to you: 'Do not be afraid or dismayed because of this great multitude, for the battle is not YOURS, but GOD'S".

What an humbling realization...
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/12/11 05:16 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
In talking to my pastor today, I made it very clear to him that there was no more fight in me left. I told him I fought to break up my ww's affair(s), my marriage and family, my daughter and now there was nothing left to fight for.

As I was making these statements, he did nothing but smile. When I was done, he told me that he'd prayed that one day I would come to this realization, that I would reach the point of despondency and helplessness. He told me what I'd known for a long time, that my ww is a "spiritual POW" and that it has never really been my battle to fight.

He then had me read 2 Chronicles 20:15b "Thus says the Lord to you: 'Do not be afraid or dismayed because of this great multitude, for the battle is not YOURS, but GOD'S".

What an humbling realization...

Ok. Good words from him. 2 questions for ya then I'm off to bed. No need to respond right away, just think on them...

1) Is he pursuing discipline for your WW since she still holds membership at that church or is he going to give her a wink and a nod by letting this continue. Church discipline can be carried through is she refuses to appear (at least for us Presbyterians).

2) What does this practically mean for you? In other words, how do these words apply to your situation? Does this mean you no longer fight for the best custody you can for your daughter despite what the GAL said? Does it mean that you will no longer contest the divorce, or finish the mediation instead of letting it drag on?

While it is true that God often works when we are at the end of our rope, he also works through means...The medium of those means is more often than not people.

Just some things to think on.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/12/11 05:43 AM
To answer your questions:

1) How can discipline be carried out on someone who has willfully left the church. She's not there therefore what can he do. As it stands now, she's been there maybe twice in the past 6 months.

2) There is nothing more I can do in terms of the custody issue. The GAL'S recommendation carries great weight in determining custody. If she says I have no chance, that's pretty much it.

As far as the D goes, I've told my lawyer to expedite the process as best he can. There is not much left to dispute. What is there left to mediate. I'm not gonna just go and say skip this and that. I will just let things run its course.

What I've come to realize is whatever Gods plan is for my marriage and family, divorce can't alter it or change it. In that I find peace.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/13/11 05:36 AM
I think I've finally come to grips with it all. I'm now ready to cut the strings to what remains of my marriage. I never thought I would get to this point. Its time I set my ww free. Free to be who she is now.

I've tried to hold on to something that is no longer there. I tried to fight a battle that I could not win. I've tried to keep together something that no longer existed. Its time to set her free.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/13/11 05:49 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
To answer your questions:

1) How can discipline be carried out on someone who has willfully left the church. She's not there therefore what can he do. As it stands now, she's been there maybe twice in the past 6 months.

Discipline is not just for her, it is for all. It guards the peace and purity of the church and keeps Christ's name from being drug through the mud. One thing the church doesn't want is to get a reputation for being "that church", the one where if you want to go to church for whatever reason and still live in sin, go to "that" church. If she's not there, what it says is that you can run, but we will not tolerate sin in our church. That the church is interested more in doing what is right than pleasing people.

2) There is nothing more I can do in terms of the custody issue. The GAL'S recommendation carries great weight in determining custody. If she says I have no chance, that's pretty much it.

I guess my point is that it is not 100%. It may carry weight, but it may not be the final arbiter of what the judge determines is best.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/13/11 06:21 AM
CV,

The judge made it clear that "legally", her adulterous activities mean nothing, as did the GAL. Indiana is not like Virginia and others states that still consider adultery a criminal offense.

All of the resources I had at my disposal have been exhausted. All of my efforts, while noble, just can't change the fact that my ww is not going to be impacted by anything other than an act of God. Its time that I just fully and completely let go.

If my family unit and marriage is to ever be restored, it will not be because of me. I've done all I can do. I have no more fight left. I have no more of a.desire to try. I must now accept things as they are.
Posted By: finah Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/13/11 01:25 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
CV,

The judge made it clear that "legally", her adulterous activities mean nothing, as did the GAL.

Doesn't mean it won't have any bearing on the outcome......hang in there.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/14/11 01:42 AM
So I was reading back through my thread to see where I was and where I am. In June, I was ready to just sign the papers and not fight for anything. At that point, there were only a couple of months left.

Here we are now in November, 5 months later, and we still probably have another month or two to go. I am more ready now than I've ever been. I want to literally just let her free. I'm not really hurting right now because I think I am finally at peace. Its time. Its way past time. I have nothing more to give to this fight. Nothing more.

I just want, at this point, to get it over with.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/14/11 01:45 AM
This is in your sig line, Steve:
Quote
"When God conceals his purpose, He comforts with His promises."
Can you tell me what this means?
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/14/11 01:54 AM
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
This is in your sig line, Steve:
Quote
"When God conceals his purpose, He comforts with His promises."
Can you tell me what this means?


When He doesn't tell you His plans for you, you can find comfort and consolation in knowing that He is with you and that the end result of whatever you experience is for your good.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/15/11 02:44 AM
Had an email conversation with the GAL today. She told me that ww deleted her fb after she told her I had concerns about pic of DD. She was probably mad, too, because she knew someone had to tell me about it and get it to me.

Secondly, she told me I had little chance at 50/50 custody mainly because of the bogus PO (my lawyer is working on filing to have it thrown out). She said if ww and I can't communicate and compromise, how can we share custody. Ive always been willing to communicate, just not directly. Also, how can you compromise with someone so entangled in sinful activities and who's in an awfully prideful and selfish state of mind.

She told me I will not be able to have DD on my Wednesday before thanksgiving because ww and DD are traveling to be with family. This had me down for a little bit until I remembered the quote in my sign. I also remembered that as a spiritual battle of good and evil, it's not and never really has been my fight. God ALWAYS wins.

A side note: the judge in our case came into my 2nd job tonight. We even spoke cordially to one another.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/15/11 09:39 PM
So my lawyer sent me a joint motion to amend protective order at the request of the GAL. First, I would like it to be thrown out since she's violated it several times and judge is aware. Also, how do I stick with plan b if they are asking me to communicate. They haven't said I have to but they say I need to. I DON'T WANT TO.

Wife told them she doesn't want anyone else involved. At this point, I'm not really sure I care about what she wants. What do I do?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/15/11 09:54 PM
I would say that it is very important for the children that everything stays civil. Tell them things have been more civilised since you have been communicating indirectly. That you will respond and comply this way, you just dont want any aggravation from your ex. Its to keep communication clear that you do this.

If they arent forcing you, keep firm. Make sure you are happy with your representation though.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/15/11 10:02 PM
Wife refused to communicate through the IM. The only communication we've had in months has been through my lawyer and GAL. I love that there is communication. I just don't want direct communication with her. I need it to be this way for ME.

I will make it clear to my lawyer and see where things go.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/15/11 10:05 PM
Its not unusual for waywards to refuse and to continue to try breaking Plan B. Scottys WH still passes messages through the kids. I have relatives of softlad trying to tell me stuff I dont need to hear.

He doesnt like it, poor bunny. Too. Bad.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/15/11 10:30 PM
Its not so much her refusal that bothers me, its that I almost feel as though the system is trying to force me to communicate directly with her.

I will make it clear to my lawyer my intentions and desires and just see where things go.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/16/11 03:17 AM
Get all of the material that you can that suggests that the two parties in a D don't communicate directly for at least 2 years, and that it is in the best interests of the children.

As much as MB makes sense to all of us reading here, and has become second nature, we need to remember that others don't understand it the way we do. When they see you saying that you don't want to directly communicate with your WS, they just think that you are playing games and that you don't have a valid reason for it. Show them that you most certainly DO have valid reasons. You can even tell them that an IM doesn't need to be permanent, but it is something that you will be doing now. Even explain that the IM is only going to be a filter, and still pass on all pertinent information.

It honestly boggles my mind that WSs seem to say so often that they don't want their BSs but they try so hard to keep communicating with the BS and refuse the IMs. What silly silly waywards.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/16/11 03:24 AM
Originally Posted by Scotland
Get all of the material that you can that suggests that the two parties in a D don't communicate directly for at least 2 years, and that it is in the best interests of the children.

As much as MB makes sense to all of us reading here, and has become second nature, we need to remember that others don't understand it the way we do. When they see you saying that you don't want to directly communicate with your WS, they just think that you are playing games and that you don't have a valid reason for it. Show them that you most certainly DO have valid reasons. You can even tell them that an IM doesn't need to be permanent, but it is something that you will be doing now. Even explain that the IM is only going to be a filter, and still pass on all pertinent information.

It honestly boggles my mind that WSs seem to say so often that they don't want their BSs but they try so hard to keep communicating with the BS and refuse the IMs. What silly silly waywards.

Where can I find such information? Is there something here on the site and other places you know of that will support this?
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/16/11 03:31 AM
I know that DrH has written about it. I also know that there are some other psychologists whom have also suggested it. I hope one of the vets who know better than I can point you in the right direction.

I am using my blackberry to post, and unfortunately, it limits what I can find. Sorry. frown
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/16/11 03:44 AM
Please help. I'm looking for info to present in order to support my Plan b. Anyone know where to find some?
Reknowned psychologist and leading US expert on adultery and families, Dr. Willard Harley, author and founder of Marriage Builders, likens the trauma of an affair to rape. It is Dr. Harley, among other experts, who recommend ceasing direct communication with the adulterous spouse to lessen the emotional pain of witnessing the affair first hand.

Dr. Willard F. Harley, Jr:

Quote: "The problem with a coninuation of contact is that it usually leads to severe emotional symptoms, including years of post-traumatic stress disorder, even when the [wayward spouse] eventually returns. Many women that I've counseled actually have nervous breakdowns in their effort to draw their wayward spouse back to them."


Dr. Deena Stacer, Ph.D, Founder and Director of the San Diego County High Conflict Intervention Program, recommends ceasing contact for a minimum of two years in order to protect the children:

Quote:In a breakup or divorce, with children, there may be high emotion and tension between the parents. This tension creates anxiety for the children as well as the parents. The children sense their parents anxiety in their voice, body language and in their parents behavior. To significantly reduce the amount of tension for all the family, the parents should follow two simple rules for the first two years, in order to control the communication and contact between the parents.

Number One: Eliminate all face-to-face communication between the parents, {including telephone contact} for a minimum of two years.

Number Two: all communication should be done in writing, using a memo format.

Research shows that constant and chronic conflict between the parents negatively impacts the children.

Coparenting often fails, because it assumes that the parents can eventually get along. Our program assumes that with every interaction between the parents more anixety results creating less ability to agree of child sharing issues. If parents couldn't coparent while together, the gap now is wider between them since separatation and their anxiety level is increasing due to the ongoing court conflit.

Our program focuses the parents away from their feelings of failure to communicate and redirects their anger at each other to bonding more closely with their children instead.
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/16/11 04:12 AM
Google the phrase

parallel parenting


refer to it as such
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/16/11 04:35 PM
Well, it will all be over in the next few days. I sent reply to lawyer regarding "parallel parenting", etc. They stated the law does not operate with emotion, just facts. They said I am too emotional regarding the divorce and infidelity and said I need to let go and move on. The GAL will not entertain third-party communication. They stated I could sign the amended PO allowing email communication or just leave it.

They told me I can accept the property settlement giving her my car, freeing her of.any of my financial obligations and end it all now. I would have to accept the parenting situation as it is now and work on making it.better moving on forward.

If I don't accept, its another $300 upfront for mediation and $195/hr with a minimum of 3 hrs. Its an additional $2500 to them if mediation fails and the case goes to court.

Basically, lawyer, GAL, etc. are telling me to take things as they are or don't. That's my choice.
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/16/11 05:43 PM
Seriously?
Parallel parenting takes the emotion out of the picture.
It is ideal for parents where one has attempted restraining orders against the other.

Can you sign the PO allowing email communication but give an email address that the IM will use to relay messages? (not volunteering that as the detail of said email contact?)

Posted By: Pepperband Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/16/11 07:08 PM
Originally Posted by reading
Google the phrase

parallel parenting


refer to it as such

Very interesting.
Thanks, Reading.
Posted By: Kirby Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/16/11 08:12 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
The GAL will not entertain third-party communication.

Can you do email through an IM without making it real obvious? As in, set up a new email account that goes to to your IM and let your IM receive and send responses?

I had problems with my primary email account and ended up setting up a couple of new ones and blocking WXH on the old one. He is the only one who has that email address (well, I think he gave it to his mother). I set it up with the thought of having an IM, but ended up not feeling the need for it. When the last child is over 18 I will delete the account. He does not have my home phone number and I never answer when he calls my cell. It works for me.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/18/11 11:13 PM
So I'm going home (Texas) tomorrow for a well needed break. I may not have my day job when I return but I don't care. They told me on Monday that my time off request was denied due to holidays. I informed them that tickets were purchases and I would leave and not return until Tuesday. Oh well.

I haven't been home since last august with ww and DD. It'll be the first without ten since the emergency trip to see my sick grandfather bout 6 yrs ago. It feels kind weird and I'm not sure how I'll handle all the questions.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/21/11 05:47 PM
On Thursday, my lawyers office sent me a message stating it was my choice to either accept amending the PO or not and that they were amending at the request of the GAL to open lines of communication. They said communication is important for our daughter and that I should just let go and move on to do what's best for our daughter.

Today, I responded by saying that I was extremely disappointed they hadn't pursued getting PO dismissed based on ww's admittance to violating it repeatedly and the fact that its bogus to begin with. I told them that I felt I was being forced to directly communicate and that I decline the amendment based on it not being what's best for me OR DD. I stated that I have third party communication in place and that o would use that. I also told them I've made it clear to ww what it would take to directly communicate with me and to be a part of my life in the future. I told them I was not the one who created this barrier and that, while they may be used to adultery, this is my first experience and that it still is painful to deal with.

What do you guys think? Was this a good decision?
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/21/11 06:20 PM
I vote you did well. You are communicating your wishes to your attorney.

You push parallel parenting as the plan.
Every time they mention GAL requesting co-parenting, tell them the GAL should study up on the parallel parenting concept and how it is in many ways healthier for children. Especially in high conflict situations.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/21/11 06:44 PM
Originally Posted by reading
I vote you did well. You are communicating your wishes to your attorney.

You push parallel parenting as the plan.
Every time they mention GAL requesting co-parenting, tell them the GAL should study up on the parallel parenting concept and how it is in many ways healthier for children. Especially in high conflict situations.

ita
MSS,

I�m shaking my head at your thread. There comes a point where you have to start doing certain things that you need to do in order to win the custody you and DD deserve. This means that if the GAL is telling you that you need to communicate, then you need to play the game and say that you agree that you need to communicate regarding your DD.

What�s killing you with 50/50 is that you�re not presenting a willingness to play the game for custody.

Your marriage is over. Plan B is effective when you�re shielding yourself from an affair and to get your head clear and prepare you for divorce.

You are now divorcing. The ball is in play and you�re on the sidelines arguing about the rules while WW is cleaning your clock legally.

Time to wake up and get in and fight for custody.

That means that if a GAL is telling you that you need to communicate with your WW, you respond and say that you�re willing to work on communications for the sake of your DD.

There is a positive thing about your case. The judge doesn�t seem impressed with your WW�s shenanigans and that tells me that he�d likely be very generous in a custody decision.

Men who get custody or get significant time with their children are the ones who fight. They play the legal game.

Being inflexible about communications with WW about DD means that there is little motivation to give you any custody or change things.

Nobody is asking you to be friends with WW. The fact is that you don�t need to talk to her about anything you don�t want to, but you MUST start asserting yourself as a parent and demanding your rights be respected.

Do you think I got the custody I got by playing nice? I was a pain in the a$$ to my WXW. I asked for sole physical and legal custody.

Here�s your reality: You will not get time with your DD unless you fight for it. If a GAL tells you that you must learn to communicate, then you say that you need some help in this regard, but that you�re willing to take co-parenting classes if necessary.

There needs to be a serious shift in your thinking. WW is lost. The D is happening. You�re still moving along in this whole process with the hidden hope that she will wake up, end her affair, and come back to you.

Your legal fight will be expensive. It will be well worth it, however.

You should, at a MINIMUM, be getting a Wednesday night and every other weekend schedule with your DD.

That should be the minimum demand you have.

Exchanges can be done at her school in a before and after care program where you never have to interact with the WW in any way.

This is a different battle for men than it is for women. Mom biased courts tolerate crap from women a lot more than they do men. So if a BW wants to communicate through an IM, then the court looks on this as reasonable and justified because the BH is often an idiot a$$ who doesn�t care to be involved in the kids� lives. She already has custody so there really is nothing to fight for on that front.

You, on the other hand, have to prove to a courtroom of strangers that you�re a reasonable loving father who simply wants to be a presence in his daughter�s life. This means, that as much as it sucks, you present yourself to the court as a man who has accepted that there is a D, that co-parenting with the WW is necessary for your daughter�s sake, and that there is no good reason why you can�t have 50/50 custody.

That means that if you need to get your DD on your kung fu nights and you have to give up kung fu, then you give up pool and kung fu!

The advice you�re getting here is killing you legally. The marriage is over. The divorce is rolling. You need to secure your rights as a father and you have a judge that has already shown an irritation with your WW over her antics. That plays in your favor.

I�d get a message out to the GAL and your lawyer today that says this:

�I�ve reconsidered your advice and agree that DD needs for WW and I to work together for her. I will communicate when necessary with WW regarding any medical or school issues for DD if a joint decision needs to be made. I�m willing to take co-parenting classes so I can learn to communicate effectively in this situation. I love DD and want very much to be present in her life.�

Does this mean you become friends with WW? No. Does it mean you have long conversations about any of the things listed above? No. Most of your communications will be limited to email exchanges regarding DD.

I�ve been doing it for years. I have a 60/40 split with the WXW and would have gotten 50/50 if I had lived nearby. I got that because I fought. I got it because I didn�t lie down and give up. I got it because I put fighting for my kids as my highest priority.

The goal here isn�t to prove that WW is a bad mom. What you have isn�t strong. Not doing her hair doesn�t make her a bad mom. Unless you have proof she�s doing drugs or is abusive, then you have nothing.

The goal here is to show that you�re a good father. Custody fights aren�t about destroying the other parent, which is what they generally devolve into, so much as showing that you�re a good parent that would be a positive presence in the child�s life.

So get off the high horse. Do what you need to secure your custody. WW is lost. The marriage is over. Plan B didn�t work and Plan D is well underway.

Play the game to get that custody. Once you have your rights secured, then you can make it clear to the WW that you will communicate via email and only about medical or school issues. Make it clear that you won�t talk on the phone unless someone is about to die or there is blood on the floor.

That�s the guideline I was given and it works.

So wake up and start fighting the right way.

There are those here that will disagree with me about Plan B, but I remind them all that we�re talking about a man who doesn�t have custody fighting a mom-biased court system. If he had custody, then I�d say stick to Plan B. But you don�t have it. So I�m trying to advise you to follow your lawyer�s advice and play the game until your rights are secure.
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/21/11 07:28 PM
Okay. Good points htlds.

You do what is best at this juncture and play along to get the most custody.

Then, in the future define your boundaries of contact.

Once you have a court order that secures your rights you can go as dark as you wish.

My ex tries to communicate with me all the time. I ignore her about half the time and only respond in short sentences while she writes essays.

All my communications are along these lines:

"Kids have x time off. Would like to meet you as X time or exchange X weekend for those days. Do you agree or have other suggestions?"

Or,

"Took DD to doc because of her cough. Doc gave her antibiotics. Do you want to come by and get the meds for the time she's with you or do you want me to send it with her to school?"

Done. All business. Nothing friendly.

I got lulled over time into being more amicable and friendly and learned that was a stupid way to deal with the WXW. So now I'm back to short and to the point and with no air of amicability or warmth.

That's what you need to do.

Now get an email out ASAP.

Tell the GAL and your lawyer that you are willing to settle if you get more time with DD, but otherwise will take it to the judge.

I looked at the offers my WXW made this way: If this is what she wants me to settle for, then I can't do any worse by asking a judge for more time.

So I did. And I got it. I didn't get everything I wanted, but she got NONE of what she wanted.

Start doing this smarter. You're losing legally and you're your own worst enemy, but nothing is lost unless you settle for it or a judge says so.

The GAL is not in your corner and you're not giving her any reason to be. Give her a reason to be by showing that you can be above the fray and are willing to communicate if necessary for the sake of your DD.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/21/11 07:39 PM
I have never declined communication, just direct communication.

Also, hype, didn't you say you divorced quickly and pursued more custody afterwards? I'm not sure comparing our situations is justified.

Also, the GAL told me more time is difficult due to my working 2 jobs, which I NEED. I cannot survive right now without them.
Play the game until custody is secure.

If the GAL wants you to have nightly Monopoly marathons with the WW, then you have nightly Monopoly marathons with the WW.

You show a willingness to do what you need to do to secure your rights as a father and more importantly to secure your DD's rights to have you in her life.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/21/11 10:21 PM
Htlds, I know that you are a true advocate for father's rights. I want to point something out here though. I don't think mark would actually get any extra time with his DD. He would have her in his custody, but she would be in daycare. That is prob the single biggest problem with his getting custody right now.

Him communicating with his WW isn't going to help him get more custody ATM. He has bigger barriers. This is about the PO. I agree that he should be ticked at his attorney for not getting the PO dropped in the first place and then asking him to have DIRECT communications with his WW.
MSS,

I agree with Scotland but I want to make sure that you understand what I'm saying. You are in a legal fight for custody of your daughter. The GAL doesn't dictate what you get. Your lawyer and WW don't dictate how often you get to see your DD.

The judge does this and you have one massive advantage that your WW doesn't have: a lawyer.

You also have some very positive signs from the judge, who sees through the WW's garbage.

The secret for father's to win custody (50/50 or shared physical) is not complicated. It really boils down to how you present yourself. Is your house in order? Is your daughter's room decorated or is it a bed in a blank room? How do you come off when talking to people? Are you intense or approachable?

So when I say that you need to do whatever the GAL says, I mean it. Don't contradict the GAL. Show a willingness to consider options. So when they tell you you need to communicate with the WW, say, "I'm willing to look into ways we can work on things for DD."

ALWAYS take everything back to DD. DD is your decision maker. DD is the guide for EVERYTHING you do in this case.

That means playing the game. You ALWAYS want to appear to be the more flexible and reasonable of the two. You always want to seem open to suggestions.

If you shoot down what they tell you, then you're an inflexible, selfish man more interested in punishing your WW than in your DD's interests.

I'm not saying that's what you are, but that's how you will be presented.

In my case, my GAL actually said in court, "He's not the monster you keep trying to portray him to be!"

She saw I was a good dad, despite mistakes I made. She suggested significant amount of time for the kids and I to be together. Did I get 50/50? No, but I got as close to it as you can get under the circumstances and would have gotten it if I lived closer to the kids.

I didn't ask you those questions because I expect you to answer them to me. Just look really hard at yourself, how you're coming off, and what you need to do to secure your time with DD and not pay out the nose for CS while OM raises a daughter you never get to see.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/25/11 04:51 AM
Well, its a couple of days late.but I'm back home after going home (Texas) for a few days. Had a great time with family.

I also had a chance to help my brother and his wife "survive an affair". My brother is the wayward (EA's as far as we know). He attempted to blame his actions on SIL but I stopped him cold in his tracks. I talked with the 2 of them and they both agreed they spend no UA time together. I told them that MUST change.

SIL strong and wants to work through it all so I coached them on the concepts from HNHN and talked about EP's and others. I recommended both books (HNHN & SAA). I told them both to call me anytime.

I hope I did them some good.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/01/11 02:09 AM
So I pick up DD for an overnight today and I find a note from ww. It was not offensive but in light of her past violations, and the fact that judge told her she should not be communicating with me at all, including smoke signal (his exact words), I'm gonna take it to my attorney and demand they pursue getting the bogus PO dismissed.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/02/11 06:41 PM
Well, ww called both my lawyer and the GAL asking them to stop me from using the IM because she doesn't know him. She said she will refuse to utilize that form of communication because she's uncomfortable with it. Uncomfortable with someone which lives 100's of miles away passing along emails but comfortable enough with someone she's met on the internet and only known for a few.months around our DD? Whatever! Now they are all telling me to stop and accept the modified PO so I can communicate with her directly.

They suggested that a known neutral party be used instead if an individual who only I am familiar with. I told them no one we both know and respect is willing to do it because they don't support her adultery and don't want to make it easier for her to continue.

As far as the PO, my lawyer said that they will not ask ww to dismiss PO because they know she won't. My reply was that I didn't want them to ask her thoughts . I wanted them to petition the court since they have documented proof of her several violations in addition to the judge being aware and having reprimanded had sternly after her admission.

I really don't know anymore...
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/10/11 03:54 AM
I did something tonight for the first time. I ran into a former coworker and she asked how was the wife. I said, "You mean stbx?" It almost seemed to just flow. I said I wouldn't call her that but I did it almost instinctually. It was weird.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/10/11 09:08 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
the fact that judge told her she should not be communicating with me at all, including smoke signal (his exact words), .


rotflmao

Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/10/11 01:03 PM
I guess since I am not in the D process, I haven't been able to say things like that. Right now though, I have this response to how is WH. "I dunno, you should ask his mistress. He was having an affair, and left us 2 years ago to live with her. I asked him to go. Silly me, I wouldn't let him continue his affair while living with me." Then I usually smile, and wink. It's the best I can do for now. It's how we all cope.

I think it's part of the process of personal recovery.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/15/11 01:45 AM
So today I did what I probably had prolonged longer than I should have. I sent lawyer message telling him to submit paperwork and get it over with. I'm okay with finally giving her the freedom she wants (even though she's enjoyed it already for the last year).

I have nothing to be ashamed about. I have nothing to feel bad about. I fought and fought. Its time. I can't say I have many regrets. I don't regret exposing. Idont regret telling our daughter. I don't regret the year long fight. There are just some fights you can't win.

I can't say my LB is totally empty but I guess plan b helped that. I believe she will always have an account with me. She may never make another deposit but it will be there. A lot of that has to do with me leaving that account open, but that is my choice.

What does the future hold for me now? Only God really knows that. I have many challenges ahead of me that I won't list but I will rise. I can. I must. I will.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/15/11 04:24 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
So today I did what I probably had prolonged longer than I should have. I sent lawyer message telling him to submit paperwork and get it over with. I'm okay with finally giving her the freedom she wants (even though she's enjoyed it already for the last year).

I have nothing to be ashamed about. I have nothing to feel bad about. I fought and fought. Its time. I can't say I have many regrets. I don't regret exposing. Idont regret telling our daughter. I don't regret the year long fight. There are just some fights you can't win.

I can't say my LB is totally empty but I guess plan b helped that. I believe she will always have an account with me. She may never make another deposit but it will be there. A lot of that has to do with me leaving that account open, but that is my choice.

What does the future hold for me now? Only God really knows that. I have many challenges ahead of me that I won't list but I will rise. I can. I must. I will.

It holds healing. You are on that journey.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/15/11 04:46 PM
Just a vent i guess...
i was contacted by my lawyer and GAL today.

GAL told me to coordinate holiday visitation and anything moving forward, I have to communicate through MIL. The same MIL whom I see every week at church but refuses to talk to me. The same MIL who told me it was my fault ww cheated when I exposed to her. The same MIL who bought a Christmas gift for me last year but hasn't given it to me (DD told me she has it). The same MIL who refused to answer my phone calls or her door when I tried to talk with her about helping my fight for my family. The same MIL who told me her daughter was doing nothing wrong because we are separated. I'm sorry but I don't see.this as a good way to communicate about DD or what's best for her.

Lawyer told me wife wants me to pay for DD extra curricular activities in addition to cs but I didn't agree to it. Ww was sent my proposal so we'll just see what happens.
Posted By: comedytragedy Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/16/11 05:38 PM
MSS,
Thank you for sharing your story as painful as it is. I am sorry for what you're having to go through. Your in-laws are AWFUL!!

Your story helps me to heal because I see what I DON'T want to go through. My husband is a gem and I'm only coming to see that now.
CT
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/16/11 07:18 PM
Its really amazing to see all of this. For 12 years, I listened to ww and mil constantly going at it because MIL is extremely controlling. I listen to ww complain about her relationship with her mother. I thought I was pretty lucky to not have to deal with MILs attitude in ww. I guess I wasn't so lucky....and now they are bff's. Lol.
Posted By: Nit2winher Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/16/11 10:30 PM
Mark,
I have read your post.

Appreciate your tenacity and will through it all.

Now that you are at this point, How are the struggles going with the porn and any purity issues?
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/17/11 02:27 AM
Really well actually. Its been a over a year and I can't say it hasn't been a struggle without any SF. There have been a few hiccups over this year but its been a while now. I continue to try and get closer to God, focus on His goodness to me inspite of the way things look, and he will be glorified after all is said and done.

Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/19/11 11:22 PM
Today I was informed by attorney that ww is in agreement with the final paperwork. Why wouldn't she be. I'm giving her my car. I'm not holding her responsible for any of my debt. She gets her maiden name back. She has custodial custody of DD. She gets CS. Why wouldn't she agree?

Needless to say, it seems our marriage will soon be over (atleast legally). She will really be free to do what she wants even though nothing had really stopped her before. I'll be okay, though. Its time to close that chapter and begin a new one. I will not prolong things any further. I will sign papers tomorrow and just be done.

Thanks all for anything you've done to help me through this difficult time.

GOD BLESS!!!
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/20/11 01:42 AM
You've done a stellar job, mark. Keep going!
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/20/11 02:05 AM
MB,

I don't know if what I've done can be classified as stellar. I even still have a hope that remains. I know I can live without her. I know God will take care of me. I know I can't make her want to change. I know I can't make her accept responsibility for her actions. But the fact is, I STILL don't want the divorce because I still CHOOSE to love her.

What I do know is, no matter how much I love her and would do my part in rebuilding, she doesn't. I just have to let her go.

The hurt is not there as it once was. The fear of life without her is gone. The idea that I can't make it without her is a distant memory. The thing that still remains is love. True unconditional love. I know many may not believe it exists, but I'm a living witness to the fact that of does. Yes, I think I'm crazy for choosing to still love someone so undeserving, but I find solace in knowing God loves me even when I don't deserve it. What an example to follow!

The hope I still have that one day God will break through the wall that prevents her from hearing him will not die.

1 Corinthians 13:7: (LOVE) Beareth all things, believeth all things, HOPETH all things, endureth all things.

Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/20/11 02:09 AM
If you're crazy to still love her.....you have a lot of company here Mark.
A lot of betrayed people who still love their wayward mates.

Infidelity is a broken sacred trust between a man and woman who vowed that trust to each other. It doesn't mean the love is gone, but the bond of fidelity is.

Keep on keeping on Mark.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/20/11 02:11 AM
Quote
I don't know if what I've done can be classified as stellar.
You, sir, have done everything you can do to keep your family together, in spite of formidible opposition from your WW and her family. You and your kids will land on your feet and will thrive. Your WW? Not so much.

Well done. clap
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/20/11 01:27 PM
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
You and your kids will land on your feet and will thrive. Your WW? Not so much.

I believe this, too. A part of me understands that she will have to go through some things if she will ever wake up. A part of me knows, due to her willful disobedience to our pastor, to other Christian counsel, and God's word, God will deal with her in His way and His time.

The other part of me, having a knowledge of how God deals with the defiant and those who essentially abandon Him and His teachings, doesn't want to see her fall. I don't want to see her hurt. I don't want to see her struggle.

I know she has made her choices, though, and I can't save her from the consequences of them. I will continue to pray that God be the merciful.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/20/11 03:22 PM
Its done. Papers are signed. I am now DIVORCED.
Posted By: Nit2winher Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/20/11 03:22 PM
Mark,
Glad to hear through it all you are continuing to honor
God through purity. I can't imagine how hard your struggle with your WW must be.

To continue on a path that keeps you walking with God and hoping on His mercy is to be commended.

Hang in there. You are an inspiration. Praying for God's continued peace in your life.
Posted By: Nit2winher Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/20/11 03:35 PM
I will say it again...Hang in there

His word never returns void, I feel compelled to share this with you...

Psalm 16:7-11

I will praise the Lord, who counsels me; even at night my heart instructs me. I have set the Lord always before me. Because he is at my right hand. I will not be shaken.
Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices; my body also will rest secure, because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay. You have made known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand.

Bathe yourself in His word, and know you have done all you can do.
Stay in His grip and you will find peace.
Posted By: Kirby Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/20/11 03:42 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Its done. Papers are signed. I am now DIVORCED.

Congratulations. And I'm sorry.

My overwhelming emotion was simply RELIEF. I was glad that the process was complete because I was sick and tired of being stuck in the middle of a divorce.

It's been 9 months since my divorce was final. Life does get better.

Oh, and I'd suggest that you find a DivorceCare group. It really helps your recovery to go through the study.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/20/11 03:43 PM
Thanks. It has been a long journey. When I signed the papers this morning, there was no emotion. At one point, I dreaded this day. Today, I think I embraced it.

Yes, I did all I could do and for that, I'm content and at peace. God understood all along my motives and sincerity. God will bless me in His own way and time. I've got many challenges ahead but God is with me and that's more than the whole world against me.

Ww is totally and completely in his hands.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/20/11 03:47 PM
Kirby, I'm really not sure when my divorce will actually be final. She still has to sign the paperwork. I guess it all depends when judge signs them. Anyhow, my part is done.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/20/11 07:17 PM
Well then, technically, you aren't divorced, yet. Not keeping up hope, just making sure that you know that. I had a friend whose husband wouldn't sign the divorce papers for 10 YEARS. He was afraid she would take their son away from him, and he wouldn't allow that. She probably could have forced him to agree, but she didn't have the money to do it.

Remember, no dating yet. Not that I think that you were gonna go out and date today or anything. wink

Also, remember to keep your boundaries up around women who are themselves married. Focus on you and your DD.

I am sorry. You did everything possible
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/20/11 07:25 PM
The good fight.
The best try.
The best plan.
Hold your head up high as you move forward.
Give your child a true North to follow.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/20/11 08:48 PM
I have no intention of dating now. I'm not sure if I will truly. I'm okay with being by myself. I don't have to have someone.

I have definitely learned about boundaries. With the married social worker a while back, I was dangerously close. The thoughts I had at that time were not good. The recent attempt at my ex to reach out and possibly reconnect (I think you all were right about that) was another learning experience. There was even a girl in my apartment complex that presented a challenge. All these temptations have been avoided.

I am EXTREMELY vulnerable. I know this. I have to remind myself to stay on guard.
Posted By: Kirby Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/21/11 04:08 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
I am EXTREMELY vulnerable. I know this. I have to remind myself to stay on guard.

You're being very wise here. I have met several people who are going through their second divorce because they jumped into a new relationship too quickly. Take your time.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/21/11 04:20 PM
Originally Posted by Scotland
Well then, technically, you aren't divorced, yet. Not keeping up hope, just making sure that you know that. I had a friend whose husband wouldn't sign the divorce papers for 10 YEARS. He was afraid she would take their son away from him, and he wouldn't allow that. She probably could have forced him to agree, but she didn't have the money to do it.

Remember, no dating yet. Not that I think that you were gonna go out and date today or anything. wink

Also, remember to keep your boundaries up around women who are themselves married. Focus on you and your DD.

I am sorry. You did everything possible

I don't really anticipate many days will pass before she signs. This is what she has wanted for over a year. It is sitting before her now. She can just consider it my Christmas present to her.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/24/11 07:40 PM
So I've got everything necessary for my first attempt at cooking a holiday meal. Wish me luck!!!
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/24/11 07:54 PM
Quote
So I've got everything necessary for my first attempt at cooking a holiday meal. Wish me luck!!!
You can do it, mark! hurray
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/24/11 09:44 PM
It is now official. I got paperwork today. I am divorced.
Posted By: Kirby Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/24/11 09:52 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
It is now official. I got paperwork today. I am divorced.

((mark))
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/24/11 09:55 PM
((((Mark))))
Posted By: MFJ1974 Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/25/11 12:23 AM
HUGSS
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/25/11 01:44 AM
Its okay all. I'm okay. I finally let her go. I still do love her but I had to let her go. You can't keep someone who doesn't want to be kept. I have survived and I will continue to survive.

I firmly believe God has a plan for me and the divorce cannot thwart HIS plan. He has blessed me continually throughout it all and he will continue.

GOD BLESS!!!
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/25/11 03:16 AM
{{{mark}}} A big life awaits you out there - you'll be fine!
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/25/11 10:49 PM
Today has been rougher than I anticipated. Yesterday I find out the d is final. Today I go to church (the church my WxW free up in) and her whole family is there, minus her, of course. I had a difficult time hearing all the talk about family dinners and so on.

The in-laws said a very customary hello, but nothing else. I felt something different. I don't know if it was anger it what. The day before, I find out I'm no longer married and then I see all those who did nothing when I asked help in saving my family. It was tough.

Posted By: Kirby Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/25/11 10:57 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Today has been rougher than I anticipated.

(((Mark)))

It looks like you're about a year behind me in some ways. I filed for divorce in Nov '09, and Christmas last year was the very worst Christmas of my life. Next year will be better. Not perfect, but better.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/27/11 02:51 AM
I was hesitant to post this but decided to do so anyway...

I got a call from my pastor today. He met with WxW on Friday at her request and she stated she wanted to meet with methe so that i could have closure (our d wasis final 12/22/11) and that we need to have a friendship for the sake of our daughter. She stated she also wanted to return to the church I attend, the one we attended together, the one she grew up in.

I told him that I can not do so unless she is repentant and remorseful and wants to work on things together. He stated she didn't seem to be remorseful and that he thought it was more for her benefit than mines. I have a relationship with my daughter and contact with her is not necessary for that to continue. I told him I will leave the church if she returns unremorseful and unrepentant and that I'm prepared for it to be that way indefinitely.

I know I shouldn't be told these things by anyone but as my pastor and close friend, he thought I should hear what he had to say. It didn't really bother me. I really felt better telling him in person my conditions and I stand on it.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/27/11 03:28 AM
Quote
I know I shouldn't be told these things by anyone but as my pastor and close friend, he thought I should hear what he had to say.
Actually, I think it's good that he heard what YOU had to say. He needs to be ready to steer her away from that church and suggest other places of worship for her. I assume he is ready to do so if she tries to attend there, yes?

Your pastor is right: It's still all about her. She wanted to meet with you to make herself feel better. Good for you, for not helping her do that.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/27/11 03:38 AM
He stated that he wouldn't shun her if she came. He would let her know there are matters that need to be put in order. I have been faithful to the church, even continuing monetary contributions during my 3 month absence during the summer.

He states he will handle things when faced with it because he doesn't think she will really come back. If she does, I will leave. This time I'm afraid it might be for good.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/27/11 04:15 AM
Quote
He stated that he wouldn't shun her if she came.
Your pastor would be a poor protector of his flock if he allowed a dangerous person into their midst. Your WxW has grievously injured you, a member of his flock.

Any pastor worth his salt will not allow someone to come into the church, knowing this.

This is a commone issue in churches. If your pastor is incapable of steering this danger away from his church, I would seriously question his leadership skills.

Not to criticize your pastor, mark. But he should know this.
Posted By: Kirby Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/27/11 04:36 AM
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Quote
He stated that he wouldn't shun her if she came.
Your pastor would be a poor protector of his flock if he allowed a dangerous person into their midst. Your WxW has grievously injured you, a member of his flock.

Any pastor worth his salt will not allow someone to come into the church, knowing this.

This is a commone issue in churches. If your pastor is incapable of steering this danger away from his church, I would seriously question his leadership skills.

Not to criticize your pastor, mark. But he should know this.

I agree completely.

However, my experience was that my pastor was not willing to do anything to protect me and my children from my WH. After he and I separated, I ended up going back to the church that we had belonged to for most of the marriage. I re-joined and WH was not even a member there.

When WH started going to church there, the pastor told me that he would not do anything. I removed my membership.
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/27/11 05:47 PM
You learn people have to make choices constantly.
They go by their gut, by their experience with things, by their ideas about how others will view their actions.
You can only run your own show.
The pastor isn't totally equipped for a situation like this. You must be his first experience? Or at least his first experience with a betrayed person who doesn't pretend all is fine and smoothed over?

Definitely know that you don't need to be friends with her for your child's sake. You can be a single Dad. A Dad who has boundaries. Who tries to not be judgemental but who doesn't have to interact with someone who has hurt him and chooses to continue to do so.

If you need to leave the church should your now X WW attend, let the pastor know you simply can not be around her. That it is far to painful. That you understand his position but he needs to understand yours. That your boundaries are firm and you choose to protect your heart and soul for your child's sake. To be a functioning person in society.

YK?
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/27/11 06:35 PM
Your pastor should be willing to stand up to your WxW and let her feel the consequences of her actions. He does her a true disservice by it. But, alas, you cannot control how others react, you can only control your reactions to it. I say that you did spectacular(and you gave me a mild heart attack BTW, I thought that you had agreed to become friends with your WxW) in telling him what you felt.

While it is true that you shouldn't be hearing things about your WxW, you have also told him that, and he doesn't seem to respect your decision. I say that this interaction shows a lot more about his character than about your WxW.

You make your choice, and stick to what is best for you and your daughter, and remember that there are other churches out there, and you are still able to do His work without attending that particular one.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/27/11 06:38 PM
Reading, yes, this is the first church he has ever pastored. He is inexperienced in matters such as these and I do understand that. But as a minister myself, I also understand that a relationship with christ cannot be restored without contrition and repentance. Likewise, I don't believe one can be restored to the church without an expression of contrition and repentance.

In the pastor's own words, he stated she expressed no remorse for her actions during their conversation. I have a problem with him saying that and yet being willing to allow her to return in that condition. When no one else holds her accountable for the things.she has done and continues to do, the pastor should.

I am not perfect and recognize that I sin daily. But I also know there is a difference between committing sin and living in sin.

Right now, I am waiting for him to return to his office so we can discuss the matter. I don't expect he will change his stance and I am fully prepared to withdraw my membership if he doesn't. I hate to do so because he is really my closest friend in addition to being my pastor.

Sometimes the right things are not easy to do....
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/27/11 10:53 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
I was hesitant to post this but decided to do so anyway...

I got a call from my pastor today. He met with WxW on Friday at her request and she stated she wanted to meet with methe so that i could have closure (our d wasis final 12/22/11) and that we need to have a friendship for the sake of our daughter. She stated she also wanted to return to the church I attend, the one we attended together, the one she grew up in.

I told him that I can not do so unless she is repentant and remorseful and wants to work on things together. He stated she didn't seem to be remorseful and that he thought it was more for her benefit than mines. I have a relationship with my daughter and contact with her is not necessary for that to continue. I told him I will leave the church if she returns unremorseful and unrepentant and that I'm prepared for it to be that way indefinitely.

I know I shouldn't be told these things by anyone but as my pastor and close friend, he thought I should hear what he had to say. It didn't really bother me. I really felt better telling him in person my conditions and I stand on it.

Mark, your WXW is a kook (sorry). This "closure" is for her sake only so she can go around telling everyone, "See, it all worked out in the end. Everything's cool. We've made our peace and Mark and I are good friends." I'm so glad you saw right through that shinola.

Your pastor, on the other hand even if he is new should learn from this experience. You don't coddle adultery. You expose it (especially in a church situation!).

Your pastor needs a mentor to guide him on how to deal with adultery. For him to even suggest that he would facilitate such a meeting is appalling.

Sheesh.
Posted By: johnstwin Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/28/11 02:01 AM
Mark-

Please ask your pastor to read Matt. 18:15-17, so that he will understand what Jesus said to do about an unrepentant person in the church.

Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/28/11 02:28 AM
I did that at the beginning. He applauded my approach until it got to vs. 17.
Posted By: johnstwin Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/28/11 02:38 AM
Wow! Sorry about that mark-

Sounds like it's either time to bring it up with the elder board or other leadership in the church, or find a church that is willing to follow biblical guidelines.

I know that's hard...btdt...
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/28/11 03:07 AM
Guys, if I can be brutally honest. Today, I actually had thoughts of just finding someone to have fling with. I've been faithful to my marriage for over a year while my WxW has been doing who knows what.

I'm single now. And while I know I don't want a relationship right now, I could have some fun.

The thing that has kept me from doing it has been the spirit of God that lives in me. Lord knows that if it wasn't for him, I'd have done it long ago.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/28/11 03:51 AM
And you're a better person than that. You have you daughter to think about.

No one would fault you for dating, but being recently divorced, the kinds of women you would attract are not the sort that you would want.

Your TAKER is SCREAMING. Find ways to calm it.
Posted By: Kirby Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/28/11 04:16 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Guys, if I can be brutally honest. Today, I actually had thoughts of just finding someone to have fling with. I've been faithful to my marriage for over a year while my WxW has been doing who knows what.

I'm single now. And while I know I don't want a relationship right now, I could have some fun.

The thing that has kept me from doing it has been the spirit of God that lives in me. Lord knows that if it wasn't for him, I'd have done it long ago.

((Mark)) I understand. Totally.

I have four of my kids living with me and they are watching how I live my life. That's been a huge factor in why I haven't had a fling.

One of the kids went completely off the rails when she found out for sure that her dad had sex with the OW. I don't want to know what the others would do if I did the same thing. And I'm not going to find out.

Just keep doing the right now.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/28/11 06:06 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Guys, if I can be brutally honest. Today, I actually had thoughts of just finding someone to have fling with. I've been faithful to my marriage for over a year while my WxW has been doing who knows what.

I'm single now. And while I know I don't want a relationship right now, I could have some fun.

It's also a good way to disqualify yourself from being in the pastorate.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/28/11 06:11 AM
CV,

You did read my entire post, right? Just checking...
Posted By: Caracal Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/28/11 06:28 AM
I really admire your honesty mark. Sure, most of us betrayed think about it... not many of us say it. You open yourself up for the feedback, and with this you will continue to grow.

Just remember you almost got pulled in by a trolling married woman. You are still very vulnerable. Be VERY aware of this.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/28/11 06:35 AM
Caracal,
Thanks for the compliment. I guess a part of who I have become is someone who is no longer willing to hide what I really feel (one of my faults during my marriage). I've learned that I actually feel better to expressing myself as opposed to masking and hiding it.
Posted By: Caracal Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/28/11 06:46 AM
You're welcome Mark. Yep, learning and growing as a person. Accepting responsibility for your own faults. Using the sad circumstances and MB to make positive changes in yourself. MB success.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/28/11 02:03 PM
I had a thought and I wanted to run it by you all...

So my WxW has requested a meeting to give me "closure". Obviously, I declined. She has also expressed a desire to return to our marital church. In the conversation with the pastor regarding her return, he stated he would with her and inform her that her return was contingent upon her willingness to give up the life she's living and express remorse and repentance before the church.

Since they are going to meet anyway, I had a thought a thought of writing a letter and letting him read it to her. In it, my thought is not to bash her or anything but essentially it will be a plan b letter in a modified manner.

In the letter, I will reiterate the conditions of my plan b. Since we are now divorced, I want to tell her that I realized I couldn't keep her caged in if she wanted to be free, but her freedom did come with a cost and that was losing me.

I haven't totally thought out the letter and the above ideas are all "off the cuff".
What do you all think?
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/28/11 03:06 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
I had a thought and I wanted to run it by you all...

So my WxW has requested a meeting to give me "closure". Obviously, I declined. She has also expressed a desire to return to our marital church. In the conversation with the pastor regarding her return, he stated he would with her and inform her that her return was contingent upon her willingness to give up the life she's living and express remorse and repentance before the church.

Since they are going to meet anyway, I had a thought a thought of writing a letter and letting him read it to her. In it, my thought is not to bash her or anything but essentially it will be a plan b letter in a modified manner.

In the letter, I will reiterate the conditions of my plan b. Since we are now divorced, I want to tell her that I realized I couldn't keep her caged in if she wanted to be free, but her freedom did come with a cost and that was losing me.

I haven't totally thought out the letter and the above ideas are all "off the cuff".
What do you all think?

Do you still want her back if your conditions are met?

I like the idea of a third party reading it to her. Makes it more difficult for her to spin (to herself) the real reason for the divorce.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/28/11 04:55 PM
I honestly say I would willingly take her back IF the conditions are met but having been on MB as long as I have, you probably already know what those conditions are.

True remorse and repentance evidenced by actions like totally ending all communications with her lover or lovers (whatever the case may be), total transparency, counselling, agreeing to follow MB plan for recovery, etc.

It was just something I thought about doing. Would love to hear more thoughts....
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/28/11 04:57 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
I honestly say I would willingly take her back IF the conditions are met but having been on MB as long as I have, you probably already know what those conditions are.

True remorse and repentance evidenced by actions like totally ending all communications with her lover or lovers (whatever the case may be), total transparency, counselling, agreeing to follow MB plan for recovery, etc.

In that case, I would do it. It won't hurt to remind her that there is a way back 'home' if she is willing to take the proper steps.
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/28/11 05:21 PM
I, personally would not write a letter for the pastor to read.
The Plan B letter was given. Though the D is final, it still stands there as a testiment to your willingness to rebuild, D or no D.
She won't hear the message given and heed it any better than the one you have given.
It comes across as trying to beat sense into her and she has much work to do to ever get her sense back.
If she ever IS repentant and wants to rebuild, nothing on the planet would stop her from inquiring about the status of your willingness then.

Release even more control Mark. Turn away from the mess and move in another direction. One where you are protected from the pain she creates.

You will know if she ever is ready to get seriously back with you. I believe that.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/28/11 09:36 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
CV,

You did read my entire post, right? Just checking...

I did. Just wanted to make sure it was out there. It's true that most of us have had this cross our minds after being betrayed. You were honest enough to share it.

Thanks.

CV
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/30/11 10:06 PM
I came into a little cash so today I did a huge wardrobe Makeover. I hadn't bought anything for myself in over a year so I did it today. BIG TIME!
Posted By: karmasrose Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/30/11 10:09 PM
You could go straight to Goodwill or somewhere, itemize the clothes you're getting rid of, and get a nice tax deduction.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/30/11 10:10 PM
Quote
You could go straight to Goodwill or somewhere, itemize the clothes you're getting rid of, and get a nice tax deduction.
That's a great idea. mark, you've got 1 day left to do this. If you can pack everything up and get it to Goodwill tomorrow, you can write it off on this year's tax return.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/30/11 10:13 PM
Itemized deductions have never helped me much.
Posted By: CWMI Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/30/11 10:20 PM
No mortgage?
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/30/11 10:24 PM
Due to divorce, its in foreclosure.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/31/11 12:46 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Due to divorce, its in foreclosure.

You could send me some... lol...

Money, not clothes! rotflmao
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/31/11 12:47 AM
New year, New you. Good on ya.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/31/11 06:00 AM
I know the old saying is "Clothes dont make the man...". While that may be true, a new attire has done me some good. After work tonight, I got cleaned up and went out to watch some UFC (in some of my new duds, of course) and it felt GREAT!

Yay, me!!!!
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/31/11 06:03 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
I know the old saying is "Clothes dont make the man...". While that may be true, a new attire has done me some good. After work tonight, I got cleaned up and went out to watch some UFC (in some of my new duds, of course) and it felt GREAT!

Yay, me!!!!

Lesner got owned. Again...

I'll take dream MMA anyday!

CV
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/31/11 06:17 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
I know the old saying is "Clothes dont make the man...". While that may be true, a new attire has done me some good. After work tonight, I got cleaned up and went out to watch some UFC (in some of my new duds, of course) and it felt GREAT!

Yay, me!!!!

Nope clothes don't make the man, but wearing certain things can have an effect on you which gives you a better sense of self, and that shines through every time.

Just like smiling while talking on a phone. The person can't see the smile, but they sure can hear it.

I don't understand people watching UFC, but that's a debate for another day.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 12/31/11 06:32 AM
Yeah. Leaner couldn't make it out of the 1st rd. One of the guys I was watching with called it. And Leaner says he's done now.

Anyways, I'm sitting here listening to some music, going they my closet and purging some stuff. Got a pretty good pile so far. Out with the old. In with the new.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/02/12 06:44 AM
I'm so excited. Tomorrow I meet with a couple from my church in hopes of helping them "Survive an Affair". She is the ws and had actually left but she called asking to come back and was with him today at church. I'm so looking forward to it. I'm just hoping she is willing to put in the work. They are a young couple (married 3 yrs I think) so if I can help them learn some things about marriage and how to meet each others needs, my own divorce will not be without its own rewards. I CAN'T WAIT. Wish me luck...
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/02/12 06:45 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
I'm so excited. Tomorrow I meet with a couple from my church in hopes of helping them "Survive an Affair". She is the ws and had actually left but she called asking to come back and was with him today at church. I'm so looking forward to it. I'm just hoping she is willing to put in the work. They are a young couple (married 3 yrs I think) so if I can help them learn some things about marriage and how to meet each others needs, my own divorce will not be without its own rewards. I CAN'T WAIT. Wish me luck...

How about blessing from God instead? wink

You'll do good Mark

CV
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/02/12 06:52 AM
Just an expression, CV, but ITA....
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/02/12 08:44 PM
I just left the counseling session with the couple I mentioned yesterday. It went GREAT! Our session lasted about the 1 1/2 hours and many things were discussed: how affairs start, the love bank, love busters, emotional needs, the 4 rules, etc.

They both were open and honest and expressed a desire to do what's necessary to create the marriage they desire. Neither disagreed that they made many withdrawals and few deposits to the love bank. Neither made the other solely responsible for the "state of affairs" (no pun intended). It was a good session.

I'm going to be giving them both SAA and HNHN. I showed them MB.com and told them to submerge themselves in the information there. I pray that they received the info, which it seemed they did.

I attend church with them so following up and continuing to assist them in recovery will not be an issue. I'm SOOO happy that I can use my situation to help someone else!
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/05/12 09:59 PM
Well, I've been getting tons of compliments on my new look. My 8 yr old daughter even said something yesterday. The change has been a good one and well over due.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/05/12 10:59 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Well, I've been getting tons of compliments on my new look. My 8 yr old daughter even said something yesterday. The change has been a good one and well over due.

Oh man!!! I just had a thought!!! Did you get a toupe'???

JOKE! JOKE!!

CV
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/05/12 11:21 PM
Originally Posted by celticvoyager
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Well, I've been getting tons of compliments on my new look. My 8 yr old daughter even said something yesterday. The change has been a good one and well over due.

Oh man!!! I just had a thought!!! Did you get a toupe'???

JOKE! JOKE!!

CV

That's funny, wise guy....
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/10/12 04:20 PM
Just wanted to give you all an update:

I made another major decision yesterday and just quit my 9-5 job. I'd been contemplating it for a long time. Something happened yesterday that told me enough was enough. I am making some changes and that one was overdue.

I informed my part-time employer that I will most likely be changing my availability to move to full-time and they were totally okay with it. I just decided I could no longer go to work every morning and hate it.

And when I say I quit, I mean I just walked out. And I felt good doing it and totally at peace. I woke up this morning not dreading what was going to happen over the course of the next 9 hours.

I'm not gonna rush moving to full-time at my other job just yet, though. I make a comparable amount there only part-time. I'm just gonna enjoy a little free time and see where things go for the next couple of weeks.

AND THE JOURNEY CONTINUES ....
Posted By: karmasrose Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/10/12 11:49 PM
I'd say enjoy your time! You can always remain part-time and volunteer for overtime...
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/11/12 03:16 AM
Originally Posted by karmasrose
I'd say enjoy your time! You can always remain part-time and volunteer for overtime...

KR, that is actually a good idea. I can actually keep things the way they are and just pick up additional hours because they are always available.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/14/12 02:29 AM
Well, its been a pretty good week for me without the stress that came with the old job. The manager from my part-time job pretty much told me I shouldn't change my status. She's gonna schedule me additional evening hours and I can pickup some daytime shifts as needed (I'm a waiter at a nice resteraunt making the same as my old job with half the hours). I thought that was a good idea.

I've been feeling good with my new look. Been getting a lot more compliments and comments. I'm getting ready to go to the movies now BY MYSELF. It feels funny to say but it doesn't bother me. I don't have to have someone with me to enjoy myself. I'll probably stop and play a game or two of pool before it starts. Its not the normal Friday night but its my Friday night.

I've got another session with the couple I've been helping tomorrow so we'll see how that goes.

Life is really, as they say, what you make it.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/14/12 04:14 AM
You sound more at peace than ever. Keep it up.

Playing pool and movie by yourself sounds like a fine Friday night.

Good job.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/14/12 04:51 AM
I actually decided to just shoot pool. I'm enjoying it, too. I used to play almost every day because I was in a league and had a table at home. I'll just catch a movie on another night.

At peace? I feel pretty good about things. Having not seen or spoken to my ww (outside of the to court appearances) in 7 months has made a huge difference. It hasn't changed the fact that I still love her, though. I just have to love from afar. That's okay. I can't change her. That is something that God is going to have to do.

Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/14/12 05:03 AM
I know it doesn't change things in the still love her department, but it sure helps the personal recovery not to have to deal with the WS all the time. I can't even imagine what my life would have been like if I didn't follow the MB Plans, and more specifically Plan B. Actually I can imagine some scenarios and they make me SHUDDER.

I don't wish that anyone had a necessity for PB, but when they do need it, I wish they would use it.

Your posts just seem more even keeled. I wanted to point it out to you so you could see how far you have come.

Have you looked back at your own thread and read the beginning? I have gone back on my own once, and it was shocking how far I had come in such a short time. I think you will find the same.
Posted By: lost79 I am new here! what to do when.... - 01/14/12 05:21 AM
Hi. I have been on your website for the past couple of days. Its a very helpful website. I have been going through this nightmare with my husband of 13 years. We got married very young I was 18 and he was 19 years old. Had our first child at the age of 19 (me) him 20 years old.

He first cheated on me when my son was about 3 years old. He was on drugs back then when this happened. I filed for divorce because he said he my have found "the one" I was devastated , the affair went on for about 1 month or so then he begged me not to leave him. So we reconciled. Since then we grew up got our life in order after struggles.

Had 2 more kids. Nov 2009, he told me that he was confused and didn't know if he wanted to married anymore, that he wanted to find himself blah blah blah... so i put him out thinking he was needed to get away to clear his head. But come to find out he was messing around with his female co worker, and a 18 year old hooters waitress.

He ended things with his co worker saying he was gong to work things out with me and ended up in a relationship with this 18 year girl. He was 31 at the time. I literally wanted to die. It was so painful. The whole time he was in this relationship with this 18 year old. he would text, call, email me..even tried to sleep with him (which i made the mistake of doing) only for him to be with this 18 year old girl the very next day.

I filed for divorce after this event. Again he didn't want to divorce, we ended up "working things out" he moved back in. Then i felt another shift (come to find out he was talking to this girl still) so i kicked him out. He went on for about 1 month. Then begged me to be with him again. We ended up getting back together. things were good for awhile, then he started going out a lot, got a DWI, was on steroids. and i felt this shift once again.

I was dealing with my best friends mom passing away losing her battle with cancer. and while i was grieving he AGAIN had some bartender lined up. He didn't come home one night so i went through his phone records and called all the numbers i didn't recognized and sure enough a female answers the phone after me blowing up her phone literally prob close to 50 calls.

Make long story short I had his stuff packed and had it outside for him to pick up. We got into nasty arguments. While i was in so much pain he was messing around with this girl. While i was taking care of children he was totally Missing in action. Doing what he wanted to do. Enjoying life with this new girl doing drugs, drinking, going on trips etc etc. I kicked him out mid April of 2011. We are now in Jan 2012.

During this time of separation, he would sent me emails how sorry he was, texting me almost every other day telling me he was miserable etc. Up until about 3 weeks ago. I bought into his story. Come to find out he is still with this girl. met her family for the holidays. She has met his parents. They practically live together. I found all this out for myself via FACEBOOK. I filed for divorce in AUGUST 2011. I am so hurt. I am lost. I am raising the kids alone. He has the kids 1 month for about 7 hours.My oldest and middle child hates being around him


I have all boys. What am i to do?? Do you think my husband and this girl will have a lasting relationship? They've been "dating" for going on 9 months now? how can this be?? I am angry. I know i need to let go but its like my obsession. I wake up thinking about them and go to sleep thinking about them. He was messing with my mind this whole 8 months until i threw in the No contact and told him all that i knew that he was doing. i told him that it really hurt me. I am lost what do i do???? please help me.

NOte:I am new here. I am not sure how to create my own thread?? Sorry i am post all this here.
Posted By: lost79 Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/14/12 06:02 AM
i now know how to create my own thread. Sorry for putting this on your thread..sorry guys!

(tried to move this post but couldnt)
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/14/12 07:00 AM
Originally Posted by Scotland
I know it doesn't change things in the still love her department, but it sure helps the personal recovery not to have to deal with the WS all the time. I can't even imagine what my life would have been like if I didn't follow the MB Plans, and more specifically Plan B. Actually I can imagine some scenarios and they make me SHUDDER.

I don't wish that anyone had a necessity for PB, but when they do need it, I wish they would use it.

Your posts just seem more even keeled. I wanted to point it out to you so you could see how far you have come.

Have you looked back at your own thread and read the beginning? I have gone back on my own once, and it was shocking how far I had come in such a short time. I think you will find the same.


So I spent a little time reading many of my past posts. Yes, I think I've come a long way. I still have a ways to go, though.

Its hard to believe I.haven't spoken to my wife (I still call her that)was in 7his months and I'm actually okay with it. I guess the consolation is that she's not the woman I fell in love with and planned on growing old with. The person that looks like my wife is so different. This person I would never even want as a friend.

I've said it before but I don't think the woman I fell in love with is gone. She's MIA. And since she's missing, she can return. I just can't control whether she does or not.

I will continue to move forward. I will continue to simply do what's necessary for me. I still have a life to live. If the person I fell in love with ever returns, we'll see what happens. BUT as long as she's MIA, I will be, too.
Posted By: Caracal Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/14/12 07:36 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
I guess the consolation is that she's not the woman I fell in love with and planned on growing old with. The person that looks like my wife is so different. This person I would never even want as a friend.

I've said it before but I don't think the woman I fell in love with is gone. She's MIA. And since she's missing, she can return. I just can't control whether she does or not.

I will continue to move forward. I will continue to simply do what's necessary for me. I still have a life to live. If the person I fell in love with ever returns, we'll see what happens. BUT as long as she's MIA, I will be, too.
Wow, this sums up exactly what I think about Gollum. Sometimes I try to explain this to certain RL friends, but people just don't seem to understand. Most think I am crazy for still believing it possible my WH may return. I know he may not, but I can't yet give up on him. Thanks for making me feel understood rather than weird!

Your posting updates in Plan B is valuable. From my reading MB doesn't seem to have many BH's who continue to do this... I think you are a valuable poster and I will continue to follow your progress...
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/14/12 08:10 AM
Caracal, I have actually wondering if people actually read my thread. I agree that there seem to be very few, if any other, BH's still here after entering plan b or in my case after divorce.

I get the same response in terms of the hope I still have that my wife will see the light one day. People keep telling me to move on. I have moved on.

Moving on doesn't necessarily mean I have to find somebody else. I am perfectly okay without someone. There are times when I do get lonely but I know I'm never alone. God is with me.

Posted By: Maryse Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/14/12 01:44 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
I've said it before but I don't think the woman I fell in love with is gone. She's MIA. And since she's missing, she can return. I just can't control whether she does or not.

I will continue to move forward. I will continue to simply do what's necessary for me. I still have a life to live. If the person I fell in love with ever returns, we'll see what happens. BUT as long as she's MIA, I will be, too.

I feel exactly the same about my WH. I do find that a lot of people don't get it though. I get a lot of 'kick him to the kerb' and 'the next guy will be lucky to have you' comments.

I too am not ready to give up on him yet, however, I know that right now he is toxic to me and my wellbeing. He is most definitely not someone I would want as a friend.

Should he come to realise that he does want me in his life, he knows what to do. My plan B letter was clear enough.

I enjoy reading your posts, to me your story is inspirational and shows me that though I have a long and probably bumpy way to go, I will get there.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/14/12 03:25 PM
When I tell people I don't have a desire to date now or maybe even ever, I get criticized. Do I care? NNNOOOO! Dr. Harley suggests that BS's wait a period of 2 yrs post d-day. I'm now at the beginning of yr 2 now, but to be honest, I'm actually willing to wait longer if I have to.

Do I still have hope inspite the fact we are now divorced? Yes I do. But Im comforted in knowing that the bible is supportive of it...

1 Corinthians 13:7: (LOVE) Beareth all things, believeth all things, HOPETH all things, endureth all things.
Posted By: Maryse Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/14/12 03:31 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
1 Corinthians 13:7: (LOVE) Beareth all things, believeth all things, HOPETH all things, endureth all things.

I like that. I think I may stick it on my fridge.
Just as a reminder what real love is.

Thanks Mark.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/16/12 04:55 AM
Today was a pretty good day for the most part. I had an awesome time with DD. We had dinner after church, went home and took naps (we were stuffed), then got our second wind and saw a movie (Alvin and the Chipmunks: Chipwrecked) and bowling after that.

What made it somewhat bittersweet was realizing the time we were having minus one person. It has been 15 months since our separation, 1 month since our D was final, 7 months since I've spoken to my now xWW and I still have my days.

The days are not bad days. I'm not distraught or sad. There are no tears. Its hard to describe but it wasn't the greatest day. I guess this is all normal. It seems this forum has turned into my means of release so here I am.

I'm still praying for comfort and peace. I'm still thanking God for all he has done for me. I'm still praying for his will to be done in my life. AND I still pray for my xWW. Its really all I can do now.

I guess I'm done "releasing" right now...
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/18/12 06:13 PM
I'd like to start of by saying im glad to see Mortarman has returned to offer his wisdom.

Next, I'd like to say that a new journey has begun for me. On Monday, I decided to start learning Greek to help with my biblical understanding. In 2 days, I've tackled the alphabet (the word alphabet actually comes from the 1st 2 greek letters - alpha & beta...just thought I'd add that..lol). I'm just gonna keep at it. It can do nothing but help.

Also, an update with the young couple I've been counseling. They seem to be responding well. I ate lunch with them on Saturday and discussed their progress since the last meeting. They have discovered that recovery, and marriage in general, is hard work but both seem to be committed. I'm just gonna continue to do what I can to help.
Posted By: MrWondering Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/18/12 06:46 PM
Hey Mark...

Just noticed your divorce was recently final and I'm sorry it ended up that way but happy to see you moving on.

I'm half Greek but I don't speak it. I do know that most Greek Orthodox churches have Greek language classes so you may want to search your area for the closest church. Then you can go to their festivals and eat their tremendous food.

Anyway...I like the path you've chosen. Had I ended up divorced, I fear I wouldn't have been as prudent.

Mr. Wondering

Posted By: Mortarman Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/18/12 06:58 PM
I have always wanted to learn Greek and Hebrew in order to better understand the Bible by reading the original texts.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/18/12 07:03 PM
Yeah, I'm moving on but the hope still remains. I think I'm actually gonna change my sig, too.

In terms of the Greek, I've always been a DIY kind of guy. I've found countless books as well as internet resources to aid me. Some even contain actual lessons with tests and everything. I'm just gonna stay with this approach for now.

Now for the prudence, lets just thank God I'm not what I used to be!!!
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/18/12 07:21 PM
Originally Posted by Mortarman
I have always wanted to learn Greek and Hebrew in order to better understand the Bible by reading the original texts.

You just have to do it. So what you waiting for??? Lol
Posted By: Mortarman Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/18/12 07:31 PM
Some time to free up! Chasing a high school senior trying to get into college, a middle school boy who has baseball all of the time and a four year old...as well as trying to keep up with the baseball career of our 19 year old...all the while having my wife, my job, etc...

Well, not sure the plate can hold much more right now!
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/18/12 09:41 PM
Originally Posted by Mortarman
Some time to free up! Chasing a high school senior trying to get into college, a middle school boy who has baseball all of the time and a four year old...as well as trying to keep up with the baseball career of our 19 year old...all the while having my wife, my job, etc...

Well, not sure the plate can hold much more right now!


Just picking at you, Mortarman. But I see you said "baseball". The greatest sport ever created!!! I played college and some professional, so I know a little about that sport. Great game!!!
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/24/12 03:39 PM
So my personal recovery continues...

Thanks to Mortarman, my new prayer has been "walls and doors". I think that is an awesome concept and I will never forget that.

I'm a week into my NT Greek course and I can now read Greek. I don't know what all the words mean, although I do know some. Getting ready to take the Unit 1 test.

I signed up at a gym yesterday since I no longer have a day job. I can work out regularly now and it feels good. I'm gonna be sore for the next few days but its not my first rodeo. I may even be able to get back to my playing shape and strength or better. I'm pumped (no pun intended).

And the journey continues....
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/30/12 02:36 PM
Well, I went out last night to do some karaoke and had an absolute blast. I was, it would seem, the hit of the night (I've been singing since six and even sang at my wedding). I had women all over me all night including a 45 year old widower who seemed to not be able to read the signs of disinterest. Lol.

People were coming and actually making requests for me to sing certain songs. I had one girl tell me she wasn't leaving until I sang another song. My ring did keep some away from me but not all. Yeah, Ive been divorced now for a little more than a month and I haven't removed it yet and I'm not sure if or when I will. I'm just enjoying life.

Since I started back working out, I've put on about 5lbs of muscle trying get to my target of 20-25 (I'm 5'10", 160 trying to get to 180-185).

All in all, Im doing great.
Good to hear and attention is always welcome.

Personal recovery is good and it sounds like you have a good attitude.

I would, however, remove the ring if you�re officially divorced, but that�s just me. Why keep it on otherwise? Why give importance to someone who isn�t worth it?
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/30/12 05:20 PM
I understand not wanting to remove your ring yet.

Consider taking it off and keeping it in a safe box and giving it a kiss each night before bed and when you get up to start your day. It will show your respect for the marriage and yet not mislead others to think you are currently married.

Just a suggestion.......
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/30/12 05:31 PM
Originally Posted by helpthelostdads
Good to hear and attention is always welcome.

Personal recovery is good and it sounds like you have a good attitude.

I would, however, remove the ring if you�re officially divorced, but that�s just me. Why keep it on otherwise? Why give importance to someone who isn�t worth it?


Yeah, I must admit the attention felt good. I had a great time! With my new wardrobe, the changes in my physique since I started back lifting, and the attention, I feel pretty good about myself.

As far as the ring and the fact my ww (or WxW) doesn't DESERVE my acknowledgement nor my commitment nor my faithfulness nor my love, you are correct. Most people will not agree with my stance or decision to "stand" for my marriage but I'm not most people and I could care less about what most people think. Continuing to wear my ring and not pursue a new relationship is a testament to my view of marriage as being lifelong. Regardless of what the status of our relationship is in the courthouse, our heavenly status is still married and that's enough for me.

My choice to continue to acknowledge her and love her inspite of her being undeserving of it is the very definition of unconditional love. Its a choice I make and one I don't regret. I just have simply decided to move on while I wait for God in his own way and time to resurrect my marriage. Will it happen with certainty? I don't know. But if I knew, it wouldn't be faith.

I continue to stand by my commitment and I continue to believe in the verse of Scripture I list in my sig. I know I have the out because of her actions to find someone else, but I also have the option of waiting on God. It is difficult and at times cones with extreme temptation but I will just wait.

GOD BLESS!
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/30/12 08:24 PM
Take the ring off when you are ready, and not one moment before.

Posted By: GJM Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/30/12 11:27 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Originally Posted by helpthelostdads
Good to hear and attention is always welcome.

Personal recovery is good and it sounds like you have a good attitude.

I would, however, remove the ring if you&#146;re officially divorced, but that&#146;s just me. Why keep it on otherwise? Why give importance to someone who isn&#146;t worth it?




Yeah, I must admit the attention felt good. I had a great time! With my new wardrobe, the changes in my physique since I started back lifting, and the attention, I feel pretty good about myself.

As far as the ring and the fact my ww (or WxW) doesn't DESERVE my acknowledgement nor my commitment nor my faithfulness nor my love, you are correct. Most people will not agree with my stance or decision to "stand" for my marriage but I'm not most people and I could care less about what most people think. Continuing to wear my ring and not pursue a new relationship is a testament to my view of marriage as being lifelong. Regardless of what the status of our relationship is in the courthouse, our heavenly status is still married and that's enough for me.

My choice to continue to acknowledge her and love her inspite of her being undeserving of it is the very definition of unconditional love. Its a choice I make and one I don't regret. I just have simply decided to move on while I wait for God in his own way and time to resurrect my marriage. Will it happen with certainty? I don't know. But if I knew, it wouldn't be faith.

I continue to stand by my commitment and I continue to believe in the verse of Scripture I list in my sig. I know I have the out because of her actions to find someone else, but I also have the option of waiting on God. It is difficult and at times cones with extreme temptation but I will just wait.

GOD BLESS!


Mark,
You're doing great. I wish your divorce had never finalized, but stay in your faith. There's no law about remarrying your ex-spouse. I hope one day you get the opportunity.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/31/12 06:50 PM
GJM,
I wish it hadn't also but that's something I couldn't stop. I thank you for your encouraging words and thoughts. I've been following your story also and hope things can turn around for you. This is a very challenging time for you, as I know all too well, but you can get through it.

Stay strong...
Posted By: GJM Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/31/12 06:54 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
GJM,
I wish it hadn't also but that's something I couldn't stop. I thank you for your encouraging words and thoughts. I've been following your story also and hope things can turn around for you. This is a very challenging time for you, as I know all too well, but you can get through it.

Stay strong...



Thanks Mark. There's great support here and it helps alot.
Posted By: Dawn1967 Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/31/12 06:57 PM
Quote
Thanks to Mortarman, my new prayer has been "walls and doors". I think that is an awesome concept and I will never forget that.
I hope I am not interrupting this thread by asking this but can someone direct me to where this "walls and doors" prayer is?

Mark, I am sorry to hear about all that you have been through but also glad to hear you seem to be "keeping your chin up" and making it through each day. Good for you!

Stay strong!!

Posted By: GJM Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/31/12 07:14 PM
Walls and Doors
Posted By: Maryse Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/31/12 07:14 PM
Originally Posted by Scotland
Take the ring off when you are ready, and not one moment before.


I totally agree. I am still wearing mine on my ring finger, and my WH's on my thumb. They are a daily reminder to me that I am the strong one, and the one who fights and stands up for what they believe in.

Mark, you sound like you're doing great.

Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/01/12 12:49 AM
The funny thing is, I don't really feel any different now that the D has been finalized. I still love my wife. I still don't have the slightest desire to pursue another.

I am really enjoying life. I do things for myself and by myself and I'm perfectly okay with it all.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/01/12 03:01 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
The funny thing is, I don't really feel any different now that the D has been finalized. I still love my wife. I still don't have the slightest desire to pursue another.

I am really enjoying life. I do things for myself and by myself and I'm perfectly okay with it all.

The BEAUTY of a proper Plan B. WEll done. laugh

hurray
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/02/12 07:31 PM
So WxW seems to continually find a way to circumvent the system and my plan b.

For those who are unfamiliar, after a nonviolent confrontation with ww and om #? back into june, i decided to finally go plan b and go totally dark. She seemed to help matters as well by filing and being granted a PO. There was no violence.in the confrontation. Some words were said but nothing more. No threat. Nothing physical. During PO hearing she told judge she didn't believe I was a physical threat but she just wanted me to leave her alone. That day was the first I'd seen of her in three months. He granted it because he said I disturbed her peace.

Since then, I've only seen her once at our status hearing in September. During that hearing she was harshly reprimanded by the judge when she revealed her repeated attempts to contact me via email, phone calls, and texts. She stated she was bothered because I wouldn't respond. The judge was furious because she filed the (bogus) PO because she didn't want contact and now she's mad because I wouldn't respond. His exact words were, "You are not to contact him by phone, email, text, or SMOKE SIGNAL". I wanted to laugh.

So fast forward. She has continued to try to get through. She sent a note to me in our dd's backpack. She tried to get pastor to facilitate a meeting to give me "closure". Then, yesterday, I received a short letter in the mail from her.

During the d process, I made my lawyer aware of her attempts at contact and asked him to pursue getting the PO dismissed. In turn, they tried to get me to agree to modify the PO so that ww and I could communicate directly through email. I refused. I didn't want the PO dismissed to communicate, but to have it simply removed from my record. My plan b conditions remain in place and I don't have any intention of giving in.

I guess I just ranted about all of this because I'm torn between pursuing getting the PO dismissed on my own. The judge knows nothing of the things I've spoke of and I'm sure he wouldn't be too nice to her if he found out. If I were to do any of that, I'd be in jail. I have never wanted to involved the courts nor do anything that would bring grief to my ww because I still love her. Why do things have to be so difficult? She has no clue how much I've continued to try to shield her because of the way I still feel about her...ugh.

Rant over.
Posted By: GJM Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/02/12 07:50 PM
That's crazy that she was granted a PO because you disturbed her peace. You're in a tough spot because you still love her. I would still pursue getting the PO removed.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/02/12 11:25 PM
Originally Posted by GJM
That's crazy that she was granted a PO because you disturbed her peace. You're in a tough spot because you still love her. I would still pursue getting the PO removed.

DITTO.

You should get your IM to resend the Plan B letter. Does your order include your IM?(Maybe that question should have been first).
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/03/12 04:10 AM
GJM, yeah, I thought it was crazy, too. Those were his exact words. What was even crazier was that my lawyer was there when the judge reprimanded her. He even spoke to me about the possibility of pursuing getting it dismissed because I had told him before WxW spoke about it. But when the GAL got involved, she told me the same thing about getting it dismissed. Then she got the idea about modifying it in order for us to communicate. Lawyer would no longer pursue the dismissal after that suggestion even after I showed him she continued to make contact after being reprimanded.

The GAL told me I was being unreasonable to not want to communicate with WxW even if she monitored the communication. I was also unreasonable for not wanting MIL to serve as IM. MIL enabled WxW and wouldn't talk to me when I tried to go to her for help. NOW she wants me to communicate with her??? GAL told me I just needed to accept the D, move to on, and do what was best for DD. When I mentioned, parallel parenting, she wouldn't even listen.

Scotland, I thought about resending the Plan B letter again, also. I still have it somewhere and the conditions are still stand, D or no D. I'm still torn with pursuing the dismissal myself. I have proof of her continued attempts and I know she would jump on the opportunity to make me look like a fool. I just keep thinking, just because she would doesn't mean I have to. We all know she is in a different world. I've tried so many things to bring her back to reality and nothing was to any avail. I still care very deeply for her despite all she's done and can't bring myself to be the one to cause her any heartache. It may sound crazy because of all that's happened but I STILL LOVE HER.

Posted By: GJM Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/03/12 05:48 AM
Of course you still love her. That's why you're here. As long as you're protecting your DD and your self, that's all that matters. We all know GAL want you to drag things out so they can get paid. MIL as an IM? I don't think so! Being nice doesn't mean being a pushover or doormat. Stand firm and stay confident. The road is long and narrow, but it's right and worth it. Keep fighting.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/04/12 05:55 PM
Just an update in the personal recovery department.

Today was the end of my second week of working out. My goal is to put on about 20-25 lbs. of muscle. I weighed in at 157 last Monday. Today I weighed 164. Up a whole 7 lbs already and its definitely beginning to show. Yeah!!!

The biggest difference has been my diet. I eat a hefty breakfast every morning (I hadn't eaten breakfast in years) and eat tons of protein. I consume about 3000 calories, 350 grams of carbs and 200 grams of protein daily.

I'm on my way....
Posted By: Pepperband Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/04/12 05:59 PM
weightlifter
Posted By: GJM Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/04/12 07:34 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Just an update in the personal recovery department.

Today was the end of my second week of working out. My goal is to put on about 20-25 lbs. of muscle. I weighed in at 157 last Monday. Today I weighed 164. Up a whole 7 lbs already and its definitely beginning to show. Yeah!!!

The biggest difference has been my diet. I eat a hefty breakfast every morning (I hadn't eaten breakfast in years) and eat tons of protein. I consume about 3000 calories, 350 grams of carbs and 200 grams of protein daily.

I'm on my way....


That's awesome! When I found out about my wife's affair, I was 190 and going to the gym 5 days a week. I got down to 162 after not eating or working out. I haven't started back in the gym yet, but I need to. At least I'm eating better now!
I think I'm about 168-170 right now.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/04/12 08:00 PM
I'm a former college and professional baseball player and my heaviest weight has been 165. Consistently I've been between 155-158. It would be nice to see how I look at 185 and RIPPED. LOL
Posted By: GJM Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/04/12 08:19 PM
Keep it up Mark! You'll get there in no time.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/05/12 06:35 PM
WOW is all I can say!

My pastor called me into his office before church and told me WxW had confronted another member of the church about a rumor about her and I having a relationship. He asked me to tell WxW to stop doing that because she is no longer my wife and it shouldn't be her concern it it were true or not (and it isn't).

I told him that 1) I couldn't and 2) I wouldn't. I don't have anything to say to her about my life. It just amazes me, though. She destroys our family with her cheating and adultery and now wants to be bothered because she heard I was dating someone. Go figure....
Posted By: Maryse Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/05/12 08:25 PM
The skewed mind of a wayward......

Mark, don't worry about it, you seem to be doing great in your personal recovery; keep focused.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/05/12 08:36 PM
Exactly my thoughts, maryse! Its funny because this is the same girl WxW confronted me about before she left our marital church and before I went plan b. Wxw sawto us talking (we were talking about classes since we often passed one another at school). There has never been anything going on with us.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/05/12 09:19 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
WOW is all I can say!

My pastor called me into his office before church and told me WxW had confronted another member of the church about a rumor about her and I having a relationship. He asked me to tell WxW to stop doing that because she is no longer my wife and it shouldn't be her concern it it were true or not (and it isn't).

I told him that 1) I couldn't and 2) I wouldn't. I don't have anything to say to her about my life. It just amazes me, though. She destroys our family with her cheating and adultery and now wants to be bothered because she heard I was dating someone. Go figure....

What about asking the pastor to confront your WXW? He may make an impact on her?
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/05/12 09:45 PM
When I told him I wouldn't, he said he would. Right now, I don't think anything will have an impact on her aside from an act of God. Pastor spoke with her on numerous occasions about our divorce, her adultery and lies, all to no avail. At this point, I don't really think I care what she thinks or does. If she's not remorsefully pursuing repairing our relationship and family, I don't care.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/05/12 10:04 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
When I told him I wouldn't, he said he would. Right now, I don't think anything will have an impact on her aside from an act of God. Pastor spoke with her on numerous occasions about our divorce, her adultery and lies, all to no avail. At this point, I don't really think I care what she thinks or does. If she's not remorsefully pursuing repairing our relationship and family, I don't care.

Well you can definitely tell in your posts that you are growing and learning and I think that is a MB success.

Good job marksaysay
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/06/12 03:19 AM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by marksaysay
When I told him I wouldn't, he said he would. Right now, I don't think anything will have an impact on her aside from an act of God. Pastor spoke with her on numerous occasions about our divorce, her adultery and lies, all to no avail. At this point, I don't really think I care what she thinks or does. If she's not remorsefully pursuing repairing our relationship and family, I don't care.

Well you can definitely tell in your posts that you are growing and learning and I think that is a MB success.

Good job marksaysay


I don't know if it's growth or what. I guess I'm just started to become immune to the antics of my WxW. It's been a very trying journey but one that has taught me alot. I don't think anyone close to me really understands the wayward mind like I do. Pastor, while well intentioned as he may be, doesn't seem to get it, either. Maybe he does but chooses to simply ignore it. IDK.

Anyway, I just left a super bowl party and I'm getting ready to go do some karaoke. Yay me...
Posted By: Caracal Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/06/12 08:31 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by marksaysay
At this point, I don't really think I care what she thinks or does. If she's not remorsefully pursuing repairing our relationship and family, I don't care.

Well you can definitely tell in your posts that you are growing and learning and I think that is a MB success.

Good job marksaysay


I don't know if it's growth or what. I guess I'm just started to become immune to the antics of my WxW. It's been a very trying journey but one that has taught me alot. I don't think anyone close to me really understands the wayward mind like I do....Anyway, I just left a super bowl party and I'm getting ready to go do some karaoke. Yay me...
hurray

IMO, this is growth and THRIVING due to Plan B and MB principles. You have set your bar and boundaries, and now accept that if WW does not choose to meet them, you will be not only okay, but fantastic. Regardless of WXW.

Thanks again Mark, you continue to set the example.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/06/12 01:00 PM
Have you told the pastor that you want to hear NOTHING about WxW anymore? He shouldn't be telling you these things because it does NOTHING for you. Actually, it does something, it makes you start thinking about her and her craziness in being a wayward. I would just ask him to not tell you ANYTHING about your WxW any longer.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/06/12 01:32 PM
Scotland, I have before but I think I'll go and have that conversation with him again today.

Right now, I'm gonna eat me a nice breakfast then go get my workout in. Yay me...
Posted By: ouchthathurt Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/07/12 01:04 PM
She has obviously become obsessed with you. The less information she gets about you. The more obsessed she becomes. Even as far as disobeying a court order. Bring it before the same judge, 72 hours in lock up will do wonders for her deep concentration. Whether you believe it or not. I believe she still thinks that you are "hers". In fact confronting that poor girl proves it. I can guarantee you she sees you in a different light and has begun to respect you again (even if she doesn't obey). I weighed 157 once. I had a 44" chest and fit nicely into my wife's 29" 501s. Now the my belly is 44"(really 36"). Ah what the he77. You know what they say. "The bubble in the middle means your on the level" Stay strong my friend.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/07/12 02:41 PM
Originally Posted by ouchthathurt
I had a 44" chest and fit nicely into my wife's 29" 501s.

Different strokes for different folks I guess! grin

Sorry.. Couldn't resist this morning.

CV
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/07/12 03:34 PM
CV,
We can always look to you for some comic relief...
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/15/12 03:23 AM
For obvious reasons, today was a somewhat melancholy day. There was no sorrow or tears or anything. It was just one of those days. It got a little worse when I went to work (Im a server/waiter at very popular restaurant).

Seeing all of the couples coming in wasn't actually that bad. It got bad when I saw my exMIL, her sister, and my DD waiting during our peak time. I didn't see simply DD with grandma. I saw DD being occupied so WxW could do her thing.

Yeah, we're divorced but I guess it just bothered me to see just how they seemed to want to make sure I was aware of it. And they kept her at the restaurant past her bedtime on a school night.
Posted By: Viper Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/15/12 03:41 AM
Mark, I don't think I've ever posted to you before, but I have read your thread. I don't know what to say other than your WxW will someday live to regret her decisions. She may not realize it now, and she may not regret it now, but, one day....she will. And it won't be good when it happens.

You're in my thoughts and prayers. You're obviously a good man. Look out for yourself now.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/15/12 04:01 AM
There are times post divorce where it will not be good to be you.

But you will have the times when it will be good to be you.

The good times will increase and the ungood days will lessen with time.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/15/12 04:55 AM
TW, thanks. I don't think I'm a good man. I KNOW. Yes, I've made my mistakes but we live and we learn. I guess I never really thought much about valentines day and my WxW until I saw mil and DD. It all just hit me.

In many ways its sickening to see mil try to help WxW in any way she can to enable her and help her "find" happiness. All this while failing to see that her daughter is trying to find something in a place it can't be found - another man or men or whatever. Mil never tried that hard to help us.

One day she will regret although I don't think one day will be anytime soon. It would seem that our situation will play out much like many of the others. Ws finally wakes up but the BS is gone.

TR, yeah I guess this is one of those not so good days.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/15/12 01:31 PM
I must admit that after last night, I cried for the first time in many, many months. I mean, why did mil have to keep DD occupied at my job. There are countless other places she could have taken her. I feel like she did it with intent and I feel like it was done in extremely poor taste. I was fine until then.

It was like mil was intentionally saying "your daughter is with me so guess what my daughter is doing". I was doing good without the reminder.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/15/12 01:46 PM
You must focus on the good you got to see DD.

You should of walked by their table and said happy VD to DD, then go back to work.

If your inlaws are hostile towards you, you just gave them ammo to blast you in front of DD.

You are not just a man, you have to be the bigger man for your DD.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/15/12 01:56 PM
I did hug and kiss DD when she came in and even did some parenting when I saw she was disrespecting mil. I didn't speak to the inlaws, though. Just to DD.

They are not hostile towards me. Since exposure way back when, they have just tried to make me feel like everything I did was wrong. They made excuses for ww and offered absolutely no assistance in trying to help my family. All they did was enable her and that's hard for me to swallow.

Mil particularly told me that it was okay for her daughter to be "dating" someone else prior to our divorce being final. She told me I was wrong for telling her about ww's infidelity because that should've stayed between the two of us. I could go on and on...
Posted By: TheRoad Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/15/12 02:34 PM
Then you did what you had to do so nothing to cry about.

As to blood being thicker then water who taught your WW morals?

So why be surprised with MIL actions?

What do you get from an apple tree?

An apple.

What do you get from a nut tree?

A nut.

What do you get from a low moral slut hoe tree?

_______________________. I think you can fill in the blank.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/15/12 02:47 PM
I know we are divorced and I know ww has not exactly presented herself as the "salt of the earth" but please refrain from the names. Thanks.

Yes, I understand your point and its really not all that surprising. Its just still hard to swallow. I go to church with the inlaws every week, although we haven't spoken in months. I'm just experiencing first-hand how one can "claim" to love God and yet show something so totally opposed to Him.

The tears were not due to what I did or didn't do. I guess they were the result of being reminded just how far my ww has fallen and how much support she's getting. I was doing well without the reminder.

If I didn't still love her, it probably wouldn't have bothered me as much. But I do and I can't make it go away....
Posted By: TheRoad Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/15/12 03:18 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
I know we are divorced and I know ww has not exactly presented herself as the "salt of the earth" but please refrain from the names. Thanks.

Yes, I understand your point and its really not all that surprising. Its just still hard to swallow. I go to church with the inlaws every week, although we haven't spoken in months. I'm just experiencing first-hand how one can "claim" to love God and yet show something so totally opposed to Him.

The tears were not due to what I did or didn't do. I guess they were the result of being reminded just how far my ww has fallen and how much support she's getting. I was doing well without the reminder.

If I didn't still love her, it probably wouldn't have bothered me as much. But I do and I can't make it go away....



Point was not to call WW a name.

Point was to show a connection between how WW acts the way she does. Apparently by how MIL raised her.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/15/12 07:11 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
I did hug and kiss DD when she came in and even did some parenting when I saw she was disrespecting mil. I didn't speak to the inlaws, though. Just to DD.

They are not hostile towards me. Since exposure way back when, they have just tried to make me feel like everything I did was wrong. They made excuses for ww and offered absolutely no assistance in trying to help my family. All they did was enable her and that's hard for me to swallow.

Mil particularly told me that it was okay for her daughter to be "dating" someone else prior to our divorce being final. She told me I was wrong for telling her about ww's infidelity because that should've stayed between the two of us. I could go on and on...

Mark,

Please think about what we talked about today. I will repost the summary here so others can interact with my thoughts...

You need to focus on you. It's been 12 months and you aren't in survive mode now. Right now you need to start planning again for the future. Set goals, 6 months, 1 year, 2 years, 5...

It's that "without a vision, people perish" thing... You don't want to continue "living", you want to be able to thrive.

I suggested lists...

What are you presently called to be? Father, good employee, good friend to friends, etc...

What are you not presently called to be? Husband to XW, (what else can you think of?)

What do you feel you are being called to be (working towards)? Pastoring your own church, an even better dad, maybe a husband in the future... What else?

Then start working out how to get there.

Why am I suggesting this? because it keeps you forward thinking. Your XW is now, no truly different than the neighbor down the street other than she has your daughter part of the time... You can't concern yourself with her actions any more than you would with the neighbor (outside of care of your DD). Focusing on these things is causing you to hit a rut and spin wheels.

CV
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/16/12 12:26 AM
CV,

It really wasn't the thought about WxW and what she was doing. The frustration and hurt came as a result of, IMHO, blatant disrespect.

I'm just saying there were tons of other nice restaurants the inlaws could have taken DD other than where I work. I felt like I had been slapped in the face.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/16/12 01:26 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
CV,

It really wasn't the thought about WxW and what she was doing. The frustration and hurt came as a result of, IMHO, blatant disrespect.

I'm just saying there were tons of other nice restaurants the inlaws could have taken DD other than where I work. I felt like I had been slapped.in the f

It most likely WAS done on purpose. And that is deplorable. No wonder she had no problem with her daughter "dating" while still married(it's called ADULTERY).
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/16/12 01:56 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
CV,

It really wasn't the thought about WxW and what she was doing. The frustration and hurt came as a result of, IMHO, blatant disrespect.

I'm just saying there were tons of other nice restaurants the inlaws could have taken DD other than where I work. I felt like I had been slapped.in the f

Scottie's probably right, but there really is no way to be sure, and focusing on it never really helps. What you need right now is forward thinking... Forward thinking.... Forward thinking.....

A plan.

Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/16/12 02:07 AM
CV, he has a plan, and that is PLan B. When you are so far into PLan B, anything can set you off. It's scary when those feelings come up, and for a seemingly small thing. I was just coming from a place of understanding where those feelings came from.

I don't suggest that Mark dwell on it, just accept that it WAS done intentionally, but also to look at what caliber it came from and understand that he needs to stand even taller for his DD.

I think he handled it quite well.

Be proud of that Mark.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/16/12 02:58 AM
Scotty, yes, I believe it was done intentionally and that is what bothered me. This happened about 7pm (that's when I first heard DD yell my name). Because of the wait, they were there until almost 9:30. DD, who's 8, has a bedtime of 8:30.

I told my pastor about it today and he followed your sentiments exactly. He said they knew you worked there, and if they were in fact occupying DD for a while so WxW could do her thing, they should've been considerate enough to not take her to your job.

Its over now, though. The smoke is beginning to clear and Im already starting to see clearly again.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/16/12 03:18 AM
Quote
The smoke is beginning to clear and Im already starting to see clearly again.

As it should be in a good Plan B. Stay focused, and move forward. Good on ya.
Posted By: zibbles Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/16/12 05:10 AM
not trying to defend your in laws but my husband is a server and the kids love going to his restaurant. perhaps your daughter suggested it so she could see you on valentine's day?

cv's post is amazing. it's time to look forward. these people are not your allies but they might not be as big of an enemy as you think either. certainly, you can choose not to see them as enemies at some point when your more healed.

just food for thought.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/16/12 12:16 PM
I understand what you're saying about forward thinking . I do. But you make it seem as if I haven't been. I have been doing great for many months. I haven't been concerned with anything other than my daughter and me. I've been enjoying life and I've had no bad days for a long, long time.

And the inlaws not being enemies? What else can I see them as? They have enabled my wife's behavior, they have helped her do her dirt, they did nothing to help our family, they even said what was being done was okay. His else can I see them?

And I don't believe for one minute the "DD suggested it" theory. If that were the case, DD would have most definitely told because that's how she is. I talked to her several times during the course of their meal and nothing. She's actually with me now and still not a word about that. I won't ask, though.

And I'd like to comment about not being called to be a husband part...

While yes, I have grounds to divorce, it was not and never has been Gods desire. I have taken a stand to simply wait on God to resurrect my marriage and that is part of the difficulty. It is never easy to simply wait. Biblically speaking, I AM called still a husband. Death is the only thing that ends marriage, not court documents. If it were not so, a divorce would not be considered an adulterer still if the marriage was over.

Is it an unpopular view? Yes! Is it an accurate view based on Scripture? Yes!

I'm doing okay today, btw. Going to drop DD off at school, go workout, then get cleaned up to watch her presentation at school...
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/16/12 09:43 PM
Well, I wanted to make you all aware of something I'm not sure I've even shared. Maybe I have but here it goes.

Yesterday, during my talk with the pastor, I was asked the question "How long do you plan on waiting for WxW to wake up with the hope of restoring your marriage?".

My initial answer to him was IDK. The truth of the matter is I do know and I called him back and told him the truth today. Dr. Harley suggests BS's wait a period of 2 yrs post d-day. I intend to "stand" for my marriage FOREVER.

So the truth is out. Am I crazy? Only if you think so. In a world where it would be so easy to just go and find someone else, I've made the choice to simply wait on God.

This is not a decision I just made. It was made long before our d was final and I committed to it. Are there any guarantees that my marriage will be resurrected? Absolutely not? But I'm not guaranteed to wake-up tomorrow , either.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/17/12 12:54 AM
You are not wrong to want to wait based on where you are today.

Thing is time may change you. That may change your decision to wait. And that will not be wrong.

So I support your decision to wait. And will support your decision whatever it may be years from now.

You have no children if I remember right?

Are you prepared to give up the gift of being able to be a dad forever?
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/17/12 01:06 AM
We have an 8 yr old daughter which actually has aided my decision to wait. Not only am I doing what I feel God wants me to do but the family is also what's best for her. As far as changing, the decision was made almost a yr ago. There have definitely been some things that have tempted me to change my mind but I'm still committed.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/17/12 01:06 AM
We have an 8 yr old daughter which actually has aided my decision to wait. Not only am I doing what I feel God wants me to do but the family is also what's best for her. As far as changing, the decision was made almost a yr ago. There have definitely been some things that have tempted me to change my mind but I'm still committed.
Posted By: Viper Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/17/12 02:39 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
There have definitely been some things that have tempted me to change my mind but I'm still committed.
Mark, you are someone I admire. Of course, there is absolutely no shortage of people worthy of admiration and respect on this board, but I mean it.

You obviously still love and adore your wife (not gonna say ex because in your heart and mind she's not) very much. I understand where you are coming from. I've been there...right where you are now. The reason I wound up on this forum was a personal quest to make myself a better person so that this didn't happen to me again. VERY thankful I landed here. Conversely, VERY sorry to see so much heartbreak out there. Sigh...

You change your mind when you are ready. You change your commitment to your wife when you are ready. There's no scripted time frame. The only thing that matters is that when the dust has settled, you can look (with conviction) in the mirror and into the eyes of your beautiful daughter and say; "I tried and did my best".
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/17/12 03:38 AM
TW, thanks for the kind words. I will admit that I didn't make the statement looking for any awards or high-fives, so to speak. I made the statement because its a part of my story and so many here have followed in one way or another. I just felt I should tell it. BUT I really am humbled by being admired by someone. I'm no one special. I am just convinced that it is what I should do and more importantly what God wants me to do.

When I spoke of temptations, they were nothing more than opportunities for a meaningless fling with no substance. None of the women would have been someone with whom I'd want to develop a relationship with.

Believe me, the thoughts of having to spend the next 5, 10, 20, or 30 years simply "waiting" have made the decision even harder. But I guess that's simply a chance I'm willing to take.

As do many BS's here, yes, I still love my wife dearly. And no, in my heart, she is not now and never will be considered my exwife. I use the WxW moniker here to clarify our relationship in terms of this forum. But she is still my wife. No, she doesn't deserve my love still. No, she doesn't deserve my continued acknowledgements or my commitment to her. But my real and true motivation has never been her. Its been wanting to exhibit and exemplify Gods love for me. Even when I don't deserve it, he loves me anyhow.

Will I ever get to actually prove that what I say is real? Who knows.
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/17/12 03:44 AM
I'll just jump in to say

You are exactly where you should be at this juncture Mark.

Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/17/12 03:47 AM
Reading,

Care to elaborate?
Posted By: GJM Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/17/12 04:02 AM
What I see is a recovered man that has become stronger. You went through the storm and survived. Maybe not the way you wanted to come out, but you have grown into somebody better with the tools and knowledge to help others.
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/17/12 04:35 AM
I will elaborate.

Your D day was Nov 2010.

You are divorced but would be in the same place if you had not divorced.

You are in love with your wife and at the juncture you would be at

no matter what

You are working your journey and it is exactly where any decent person would be at this point.

Posted By: Viper Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/17/12 04:43 AM
Originally Posted by GJM
What I see is a recovered man that has become stronger. You went through the storm and survived. Maybe not the way you wanted to come out, but you have grown into somebody better with the tools and knowledge to help others.
Completely agree. It's sad, but also inspiring, how much good can come from so much bad.
Posted By: GJM Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/17/12 04:50 AM
Originally Posted by TigerWes
Originally Posted by GJM
What I see is a recovered man that has become stronger. You went through the storm and survived. Maybe not the way you wanted to come out, but you have grown into somebody better with the tools and knowledge to help others.
Completely agree. It's sad, but also inspiring, how much good can come from so much bad.


Unfortunately I fear I'm heading in the same direction. The good news is I'll be a better person in the end.
Posted By: Viper Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/17/12 05:03 AM
Originally Posted by GJM
Originally Posted by TigerWes
Originally Posted by GJM
What I see is a recovered man that has become stronger. You went through the storm and survived. Maybe not the way you wanted to come out, but you have grown into somebody better with the tools and knowledge to help others.
Completely agree. It's sad, but also inspiring, how much good can come from so much bad.


Unfortunately I fear I'm heading in the same direction. The good news is I'll be a better person in the end.
Not yet, G, not yet. Plan B will shake your wife to the core.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/20/12 02:00 AM
So I encountered something new yesterday. A friend asked me at an annual function we attended if I was officially divorced. I told him yeah. He then told me the fact that I still wear my ring means absolutely nothing. I was a little caught off guard by the statement just because I didn't expect it. But I began to think about what he said for a response in the future.

Maybe to him and others, it may not mean anything but it does to me. It means that D or not, I'm still committed. It means that I care nothing about what the courts say about my marital status. It means I haven't totally lost lost hope despite what the circumstances may look like. To other women, it's a sign to them that I don't consider myself to be available (and there have been several who have even commented about it).

Just call me crazy, but that's just the way I see it. I guess I'll be ready next time....
Posted By: Viper Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/20/12 02:23 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
So I encountered something new yesterday. A friend asked me at an annual function we attended if I was officially divorced. I told him yeah. He then told me the fact that I still wear my ring means absolutely nothing. I was a little caught off guard by the statement just because I didn't expect it. But I began to think about what he said for a response in the future.

Maybe to him and others, it may not mean anything but it does to me. It means that D or not, I'm still committed. It means that I care nothing about what the courts say about my marital status. It means I haven't totally lost lost hope despite what the circumstances may look like. To other women, it's a sign to them that I don't consider myself to be available (and there have been several who have even commented about it).

Just call me crazy, but that's just the way I see it. I guess I'll be ready next time....
Not sure what to say mark, but when some of the BWs on this board read this I can imagine that many will shed a tear for you and wonder why their WHs couldn't be more like you.

Your time frame for enough is enough, and truly moving on, is entirely your decision.

You're in my prayers.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/20/12 02:26 AM
Nothing wrong with being divorced in court but still feeling married in gods law.

Thing is we can only guess your friends motivation to tell you about still wearing your W ring. In the end even if it was an attempt to help you move on or just a joke. It only matters why you want to wear the ring. So wear it in good health.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/20/12 02:35 AM
I don't know his motivation either but it definitely didn't come off as a joke. The odd thing today, though, was my devotional this morning was based on the prodigal son story with the emphasis being patience, hope, and simply trusting God. Then the pastor preached a sermon this morning about Gods ability to raise the dead. Neither of those things served to point me in a different direction. They actually seemed to encourage me to not give up no matter what things look like.
Posted By: Viper Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/20/12 02:45 AM
Originally Posted by TheRoad
Thing is we can only guess your friends motivation to tell you about still wearing your W ring.
Now Road, you know the answer to this as well as I do, and anyone else does. That friend that made the comment doesn't have the same morals as mark and certainly doesn't have the same commitment to the vows of marriage.
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/20/12 03:31 AM
Well, it isn't necessarily true they don't have the same commitment or morals.

What is true is they think a ring signifies a marriage that has not been legally divorced.

Really, it is that simple and not anything to think less of them for having an opinion.

The ring signifies something special to Mark, therefor he wears it.

It isn't the other person's task to understand that.

The ring IS a physical symbol though and people will comment on it. That is human nature and the cultural significance of the symbol.
Posted By: Viper Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/20/12 03:56 AM
Originally Posted by reading
Well, it isn't necessarily true they don't have the same commitment or morals.

What is true is they think a ring signifies a marriage that has not been legally divorced.

Really, it is that simple and not anything to think less of them for having an opinion.

The ring signifies something special to Mark, therefor he wears it.

It isn't the other person's task to understand that.

The ring IS a physical symbol though and people will comment on it. That is human nature and the cultural significance of the symbol.
Never said the friend was wrong in what they thought. I simply said they don't hold the same views as mark. Yes, the ring is only a physical symbol to some people after divorce, but the significance of the ring bears more weight to mark. It's a testament of mark's commitment to his wife. Until mark is readily willing to release himself from that commitment, then the ring stays where it should be. It's what I would do.

Quote
Well, it isn't necessarily true they don't have the same commitment or morals.
I totally disagree with this. That comment wouldn't have been made if they did. JMO

Quote
not anything to think less of them for having an opinion.
I do agree with this. Sometimes you just have to agree to disagree.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/20/12 12:40 PM
Originally Posted by TigerWes
Originally Posted by TheRoad
Thing is we can only guess your friends motivation to tell you about still wearing your W ring.
Now Road, you know the answer to this as well as I do, and anyone else does. That friend that made the comment doesn't have the same morals as mark and certainly doesn't have the same commitment to the vows of marriage.


I know possible answers.
I don't know the answer.

What I do know is that MSS just has to put those statements on ignore and do what MSS feels is right.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/20/12 04:23 PM
Thanks for the comments, guys. And that comment was filed in the "I don't care what anybody else thinks" category. It just caused me to prepare myself for the next time someone says something similar.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/20/12 11:51 PM
I'm glad that you have decided to figure out what to say to people about your ring. Sometimes, when I read that you still wear yours, I feel badly for having taken mine off. I wear another ring, a family ring with my 2 sons on it, on that finger instead. I took it off about 6 months after my WH left. Even before that, people commented that they were surprised that I still wore it. Even today, I get asked why I am not dating, and I can say, "Because I am still married." Then I get, "But you're separated and it's been TWO YEARS." I answer with, "No matter what my husband has done, I haven't broken my vows, and I don't intend to, so I will not date while I am still married."

As you say, it doesn't really matter what others thinks. You do what you need to, it's working for you.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 02/21/12 02:22 AM
Scotty, I wouldn't feel bad about taking off your ring means you did what you felt was right at the time. In today's world, though, I guess we both come off as crazy since most people seem to think separated means no longer married. Heck, I think I might come off as just plain weird since Ive actually been divorced now for 2 months. Oh, well...
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/01/12 03:43 AM
Well, sincei started touring on the karaoke circuit (lol), i've amassed quite a few loyal fans. I was informed, by one, of a local 12 wk long american idol style karaoke contest and i think i'm gonna enter. It starts tomorrow night.

I used to do a lot of talent shows and it will be nice to be in another. It will be my first in quite a long time. Now i dont have any aspirations of singing professionally. Its just something i do fairly well and fun to do. I cant wait!!!
Posted By: MrWondering Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/01/12 05:25 AM
Sweet Caroline that sounds like fun.

Good luck
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/02/12 04:54 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Well, since i started touring on the karaoke circuit (lol), i've amassed quite a few loyal fans. I was informed, by one, of a local 12 wk long american idol style karaoke contest and i think i'm gonna enter. It starts tomorrow night.

Well, i made it to the semifinals which begins in three weeks. Im excited but there is a problem...we start out singing country and i dont know any country.

Any suggestions?
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/02/12 12:06 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Well, since i started touring on the karaoke circuit (lol), i've amassed quite a few loyal fans. I was informed, by one, of a local 12 wk long american idol style karaoke contest and i think i'm gonna enter. It starts tomorrow night.

Well, i made it to the semifinals which begins in three weeks. Im excited but there is a problem...we start out singing country and i dont know any country.

Any suggestions?

Congrats, and NO. I don't know ANY country songs.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/02/12 12:15 PM
"Your cheating heart" by Hank Williams
Posted By: karmasrose Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/02/12 07:47 PM
"Before he cheats" by Carrie Underwood.

Or "Cheatin'" by Sara Evans (herself a BS I believe)`
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/02/12 07:55 PM
Originally Posted by Rocketqueen
"Your cheating heart" by Hank Williams
Originally Posted by karmasrose
"Before he cheats" by Carrie Underwood.

Or "Cheatin'" by Sara Evans (herself a BS I believe)`


Rocketqueen and Karmarose, I laughed really, really hard when I read your "suggestions". It wasn't exactly what I was looking for but it brought a smile to my face. Those were priceless...
Posted By: Everthesame Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/02/12 09:20 PM
tee hee laugh
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/02/12 09:34 PM
D.I.V.O.R.C.E. by Tammy Wynette (for a little classic country)
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/05/12 10:19 PM
So i had an interesting conversation with a couple of ladies at my biweekly karaoke outing last night. They both are usually at the pub where the karaoke is done and ive come to know them somewhat. They told me i was one of the most attractive people theyve seen in the place for a while.

This caught me off guard but i asked what they meant since i dont consider myself to be any type of adonis. They said it was not strictly being handsome but the confident way i carried myself. It was the fact that i didnt walk around drunk (i dont drink), trying to hit on everything with a pulse but the opposite. I simply come, shoot a couple games of pool, sing a few songs, and then i leave. They said i spoke intelligently and respectfully to everyone.

Keep in my both ladies were late 30's to early 40's so they are mature and neither of them were trying to hit on my (i think). It was a pleasant conversation that was nothing more. I walked away from that feeling good.

They WERE trying to hook me up with their gorgeous and much younger friend,though.
Posted By: Gamma Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/05/12 11:06 PM
Mark,

It was the fact that i didnt walk around drunk (i dont drink), trying to hit on everything with a pulse but the opposite. ... They said i spoke intelligently and respectfully to everyone.

There is something about this website that reforms our lives. My W said something similar, that I wouldn't be single for too long because of the way I treat women. I doubt she would have said that before MB, thank you Dr. Harley.

God Bless
Gamma
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/06/12 12:58 AM
Ummmm, I hate to break this to you, but I think they were putting out bait. You may not have thought so, but I definitely do. The way that they described you are GREAT qualities, and the only reason they would tell you that is.......dun dun dun, ADMIRATION. Hmmmmmm, sound familiar? EN meeting my friend.

It does show how you are confident, and a good guy, and guess what? That's ATTRACTIVE to women.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/06/12 02:33 AM
Originally Posted by Gamma
Mark,

There is something about this website that reforms our lives. My W said something similar, that I wouldn't be single for too long because of the way I treat women. I doubt she would have said that before MB, thank you Dr. Harley.

God Bless
Gamma


Other than the drinking part (i quit 10 yrs ago), this is who ive always been. At this point, im more educated about relationships, infidelity, ENs, etc., but ive always been this type of guy.

Originally Posted by Scotland
Ummmm, I hate to break this to you, but I think they were putting out bait. You may not have thought so, but I definitely do. The way that they described you are GREAT qualities, and the only reason they would tell you that is.......dun dun dun, ADMIRATION. Hmmmmmm, sound familiar? EN meeting my friend.

It does show how you are confident, and a good guy, and guess what? That's ATTRACTIVE to women.


Scotty, you might be right. Now that i think about it, since i started doing karaoke there, all three of those women have approached me in some way or another. Im not sure either of them are what i would be looking for if i were looking.

Im actually starting to reevaluate the not looking part, too.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/06/12 03:08 AM
Quote
Im actually starting to reevaluate the not looking part, too.

Might this be a good time to figure out what you would want? Timeline for when you would introduce to your DD, etc? When you would fit the person into your life? What you would be looking for? If you're ready?

Congrats, another step in Personal Recovery is being taken. KUDOS.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/06/12 05:09 AM
Originally Posted by Scotland
Quote
Im actually starting to reevaluate the not looking part, too.

Might this be a good time to figure out what you would want? Timeline for when you would introduce to your DD, etc? When you would fit the person into your life? What you would be looking for? If you're ready?

Congrats, another step in Personal Recovery is being taken. KUDOS.


Well, due to the previous experience, im afraid the bar has been set pretty high. As far as dd is concerned, thats gonna be a long while. There is still some thought that needs to happen but i think im approaching that point.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/06/12 12:44 PM
Mark, I smiled when I read your post.

While I know that you aren't there yet, you are moving in the right direction. That is amazing. You did everything you possibly could to save your marriage. You fought the good fight.

Now, I would like to know something about these women. Do they know that you are divorced? Did they know that before they made these comments to you?

I'm glad to hear that you have that bar set HIGH, you need that. With the aid of MB, any new relationship you have will be amazing. Happy for you.

How is DD handling everything?
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/06/12 06:37 PM
Another update:

I've been on this site since Oct. 2010. I fought for my marriage the best i could. Despite what was going on - the infidelity, the seperation, the divorce - ive been adamant about my desire to "stand" for my marriage because i believed it was what God wanted me to do.

In recent days and weeks, the attention ive received from other women has caused me to reconsider my commitment to a marriage that, in all apsects, seems to be dead. The attention has caused me to wonder if i should continue to wait or move on with someone else. It feels good to be noticed, to be admired, to hear someone say you're attractive.

Yesterday, i was to the point where i seriously thought about finding someone else. BUT this morning i turn on my phone, which reveals my daily bible verse, to see this:

Jesus responded, "Didn't I tell you that you would see God's glory if you believe?" - John 11:40 (NLT)

That scripture comes from the story where Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead. They were spoken to Lazarus's sister who believed that the death of Lazarus meant all hope was gone.

During our seperation, that story was one that kept me hopeful. It helped me to stay encouraged in spite of what my circumstances were and what my eyes saw. It kept me mindful of the fact that with God, nothing is impossible.

My circumstances haven't improved. What I see shows me something so different than what i had always believed. And when it seemed that both had gotten the best of my, I get a nice remimder that God is able and that nothing is too hard for him.

So needless to say, MY plan has been scrapped for what I had always believed God wanted me to do, just wait and continue to "STAND". It is the single, most difficult thing I've ever had to do, but it seems to be what I MUST do.

Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/08/12 02:02 AM
Tonight, i took dd to a school function and one of my wxw toxic friends was there (she knew about and supported my wife and the infidelity). She kept coming up trying to make small talk and i acted as if she wasnt even there. I just enjoyed my time with dd and kept moving..

Was i wrong? How would you all have handled it?
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/08/12 02:06 AM
I don't think you were wrong. Okay, I may have been a bit more vocal about it, but hindsight would mean that I probably would have regretted it later. You were the bigger person, and you did the right thing. Treat her like you would a stranger, at best.
Posted By: Viper Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/08/12 02:31 AM
Originally Posted by Scotland
I don't think you were wrong. Okay, I may have been a bit more vocal about it, but hindsight would mean that I probably would have regretted it later. You were the bigger person, and you did the right thing. Treat her like you would a stranger, at best.
Why should he (or you for that matter) regret telling her about his beliefs about marriage and informing her that he has no interest in further discussion with her because she doesn't share the same morals as he?

I would have NO problem saying something like that to the toxic, enabling "friend", and still be able to walk away with my head held high.

Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/08/12 04:59 AM
The interesting thing was she was there with her exhusband and their kids. Theyve been divorced for several yrs but they still play house quite often. I've never been one to support divorce but he wasn't good for her or her kids. He couldnt keep a job, sold drugs out of their home, etc.

I'm sure, though, that the prospect of us (wxw and me) remaining friends was.something they talked about. They just didnt expect that i wouldnt be that person.
Posted By: Justthe3ofus Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/08/12 05:42 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Tonight, i took dd to a school function and one of my wxw toxic friends was there (she knew about and supported my wife and the infidelity). She kept coming up trying to make small talk and i acted as if she wasnt even there. I just enjoyed my time with dd and kept moving..

Was i wrong? How would you all have handled it?

You handled it well. I wouldn't have been as nice as you. Giving her a piece of your mind wouldn't have been bad either. She played a small part in the destruction of your marriage if she supported your ex wife in her infidelity. For that she deserves to your reproach, and she should not be let off the hook. My wife's best friend did the same and I sent her a letter condemning her small part in my wife's affair. So glad I did. She was toxic force in our marriage.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/08/12 01:01 PM
I think that Mark handled it well because treating her with indifference would actually cause her more stress. If she is one of those people who help their "friends" have an affair, they themselves thrive on DRAMA. Mark didn't feed the drama monster. Thus, this friend can't go back to WxW and say anything about his actions. Although, she's probably going to say something about he practically ignored her. One moment though, and then the drama monster will starve from that.

That's why I think you did well Mark. You didn't feed into the drama mill that some people live in. I sometimes lose my head, especially when I am caught off guard, and I regret having ever even given into it.
Posted By: jessitaylor Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/08/12 02:15 PM
Mark,

I agree the toxic friend is no friend to you anymore.......She chose her side and that is her right.
Just like it's your right to surrround yourself with the people that do support you and a moral life style......
I am glad you enjoyed and focused on your child, you don't have to continue any kind of connection with this woman.
You handled yourself like a better person and you weren't that guy who could be friends with others that have hurt you.........nor should you...........patience and integrity ...........
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/09/12 03:09 AM
I think simply ignoring her and saying nothing was the right thing to do. Had i said just one thing, i believe some emotions would have come out and it wouldnt have been pretty AT ALL.

I'm pretty sure she said something to wxw about me giving her the cold shoulder but who cares. She was never really a friend of mines. She was my wxw's friend.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/09/12 10:29 PM
Please say a prayer for me tonight. I was informed today that my grandfather, the man who raised me, my mentor, my role model, has been placed under hospice care with not long to live. He's 93 and has been one of the finest amd most respected pastors back home for more than 60 years. He has had heart attacks, strokes, been on oxygen for a long time but continued to preach through it all.

He's lived a long life and is more than ready to die, but it is always tougher for those left behind. I'm making arrangements now to go and be with him and the rest of my family.

Just keep me in your thoughts and prayers.
Posted By: karmasrose Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/09/12 10:34 PM
Heart attacks? Strokes? Oxygen? And still preaching?

Sounds like the kind of pastor I'd want. Reminds me of the sister in "Hiding Place" that despite her continuing bad health that kept going downhill, still only seemed to think of others.

Definitely keeping you two in my prayers.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/09/12 10:45 PM
Originally Posted by karmasrose
Heart attacks? Strokes? Oxygen? And still preaching?

Sounds like the kind of pastor I'd want.


He always used to say that the day he retires would be the day God calls him home. He told me years ago that no matter how he felt, everytime he stood to preach, nothing else mattered.

He has been one of the greatest inspirations in my life and i am so much like him. I can't say that everything i learned from him was good (i never saw him be affectionate and kind of grew to be that type of person) but nonetheless, i am like him.
Posted By: karmasrose Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/09/12 10:54 PM
Well, I know who's got his certificate ready. He's crossed the river and he's getting closer to the Celestial City. (I've been reading "Pilgrim's Progress" a lot lately)

How wonderful that he could get the strength to keep that up.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/09/12 11:39 PM
Thought and prayers for you and your family.

It is always hard on those left behind. It sounds like he lived a good, full life. You will carry on his legacy. You living a good and full life will become his legacy, and one I am certain he will be proud to be a part of.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/12/12 03:21 PM
MBers, i would like to share a few things, some might warrant 2x4's but i've been totally honest with you all.

After 9 months, plan b has been broken!

On Saturday, shortly after noon, my grandfather died (today he wouldve been 93). An hour or so later, the news made it to wxw and she called, as did her whole family. I accepted her call and the subsequent invitation to talk. Knowing i have no family and very few friends, she wanted to be there for me.

We met and she consoled me BUT after a half hour or so, something happened. We began discussing my returning home for the funeral and it lead to us laughing and joking about some of our travel experiences over the years. And the laughs kept coming and coming. We spoke nothing of all that has happeneded over the last year and a half. All we did was sit and enjoy one another's company for about 2 hours.

I know. My plan b is gone. We actually both violated her PO. It felt wierd, though. I don't know what happened but i can't help but believe God is doing something.

A couple things i was proud about were that i was able to show her that i've been doing okay without her (i've gained 17 lbs of muscle and it shows). I was also able to display to her that i'm still here because she noticed i still had on my ring. Neither of us said anything about it, but I'm glad she knows.

Our meeting ended with a nice, long hug and her telling me to call if i need something or someone to talk to. I havent taken her up on that offer and don't really plan on it but it was nice.

I don't know what will happen from this encounter. I know she found out there was never a reason to question her safety around me. She found out that i still love her without me having to say it. She found out that we did have many, many good memories together. But i think most of all, she found out she cares more than she wants others to believe.

Regardless of the outcome of that meeting, whether it leads to anything or not, for a brief moment, WE were our oldselves. It was nice.

Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/12/12 03:52 PM
As long as you are not thrown into the emotional pit of angst from it and feel strong despite seeing her, it is fine.

You are divorced and can choose whether to stay in plan B for any reason or not.

Many need to stay in Plan B for health, boundary and other reasons.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/12/12 06:10 PM
Mark, no 2x4 from me, yet. As Reading said, you are divorced, and some choose to discontinue Plan B after D. If you decide that you don't want to remain in Plan B, that's okay by me, as long as your new relationship with WxW isn't affecting you negatively.

I would just say be very careful.

Sorry about the loss of your grandfather.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/12/12 06:20 PM
I dunno, mark... I see much more risk than benefit here.

Waywards are very manipulative and would love nothing more than to have their xBS be their "friend" to assuage their guilt. But you risk getting hurt. Again.

Personally, I would not go down this road if I were you unless something radical changes with her (like she shows TRUE remorse for her affairs, etc).
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/12/12 07:21 PM
I cant say that i dont have reservations about continued contact with her. I cant even say that i want contact to continue. I needed someone on that day and at that time and she was willing to be that person.

Since that day, no contact has been made and i dont have any intention of pursuing any more contact. We do still have the PO for another 15 months. In all actuality, Saturday was her 4th violation of it and my 1st.

Nonetheless, if we never communicate again, it was clear to her where i still stand since i havent taken off my ring. It was clear to her that no matter how she tries to rewrite our history, we had a lot of good memories.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/15/12 12:52 PM
So since the meeting on Saturday, i called wxw on Monday to simply thank her for being there. The conversation lasted about a minute and it was over. No further contact has been made nor do i plan on making any more contact.

I will say i see the good and bad in just that one incident. It would seem that those 2 hours, while greatly enjoyable, have set me back a bit. Not in a drastic way but enough to question the good that may come from anything further.

I seemed to have, for a brief moment, let her back into my life. Do I continue to allow her back in? Since I didn't get a chance to plan a, could this be my chance now? Am I fooling myself to think that anything that happens now would even matter? If she tries to call again, do i answer now?

These are the questions I ask myself now. Only God really knows what's going on....
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/15/12 09:14 PM
You wouldn't be Plan Aing her, you would be dating your ex-wife.

When you break Plan B, and allow contact, you will crave MORE contact. I think that is what is happening here.

Is your ex-wife, the way she is TODAY, someone whom you would date? List the qualities she posses, TODAY.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/15/12 10:04 PM
Scotty, i guess you're right. Maybe i do crave more especially with the way i still feel about her.

And to answer your question about whether i would date her, there are some obvious reasons why i would say yes.

1. While legally we are divorced, in my heart she's still my wife.

2. She is the mother of my only child.

3. Our meeting Saturday proved we have fun together and had a lot of great times together (no matter how hard she wanted to forget them).

Aside from those things and her physical attractiveness, there is not much more i can really say about who she is. I've had no contact with her for 9 months and can only make assumptions mostly.

There is, i guess, one obvious reason i would say no. She hasn't seemed to express any remorse for what she's done. But one of the things that bothers me is, given my inability to plan a during it all, if presenting to her the new me might have a similar affect as plan a.

Yes, i understand plan a is not designed to win the spouse back, but to work on yourself and put your best foot forward so the ws can see what they're losing. I never got that chance which is why i almost consider it a risk worth taking.

I'm well versed now in plan b and know that things becoming too damaging would warrant returning to no contact, but i guess i really just want the chance to try it.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/15/12 10:45 PM
Okay, as a woman, apart from the fact that she is(was) your wife, and is, and will always be your daughter's mother, I was looking for MORE.

What sorts of qualities would you want in a potential date?

I'll present it to you like this. Your friend comes up to you and says, "Hey, there's this girl that I think you should date." Then he would go on to tell you about her adultery, etc. Would you consider dating her?

I would say that you not act on any of your feelings to Plan A your xWW for a while.

She's still wayward, and she's not good for you as she is. One short session of happiness with you, followed by a quick phone call is enough for now. IMVHO.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/15/12 11:28 PM
Maybe saying plan a was a little much as i have really no intention of pursuing her or initiating any further contact. I was really thinking more in small things now like accepting her calls and whether or not i should. That was pretty much the extent of it.

Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/15/12 11:31 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Maybe saying plan a was a little much as i have really no intention of pursuing her or initiating any further contact. I was really thinking more in small things now like accepting her calls and whether or not i should. That was pretty much the extent of it.

Glad you cleared that up.

I am more worried about you becoming a "friend" to WxW. That is every wayward's dream. They feel less guilty that way because everyone is fine, and better off.

Be very careful.

What sorts of things would she need to discuss with you anyways that can't go through your IM?
Posted By: myfamilyilove Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/15/12 11:50 PM
Plan B is not designed to win back the WW its to give you some peace and move on with your life. You obviously have been unable to do that and I'm guessing (without having read your thread fully) that you never did a DARK Plan B?

The best thing you can do for you, is go to a Dark Plan B for your own good. You are divorced! Get out there start enjoying life have nothing to do with exWW. Maybe she'll see that and want to be a part of it, maybe not but go do it!
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/15/12 11:55 PM
Originally Posted by myfamilyilove
Plan B is not designed to win back the WW its to give you some peace and move on with your life. You obviously have been unable to do that and I'm guessing (without having read your thread fully) that you never did a DARK Plan B?

The best thing you can do for you, is go to a Dark Plan B for your own good. You are divorced! Get out there start enjoying life have nothing to do with exWW. Maybe she'll see that and want to be a part of it, maybe not but go do it!

Mark actually did a darn good job at Plan B and staying dark. He had a RO against contact.

Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/15/12 11:55 PM
Originally Posted by myfamilyilove
Plan B is not designed to win back the WW its to give you some peace and move on with your life. You obviously have been unable to do that and I'm guessing (without having read your thread fully) that you never did a DARK Plan B?

The best thing you can do for you, is go to a Dark Plan B for your own good. You are divorced! Get out there start enjoying life have nothing to do with exWW. Maybe she'll see that and want to be a part of it, maybe not but go do it!


You have a lot of reading to do...
Posted By: myfamilyilove Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/16/12 12:04 AM
My apologies.....I wish you the best but would caution you on the dangers (for you) of remaining 'friends'
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/16/12 01:40 AM
To be perfectly honest, the friend thing is a major concern of mine. In some ways, i feel guilty for allowing her to be there for me. Now if she calls, i feel like i need to atleast listen to her also.

Unfortunately, she was really the only one i had at that time. I don't have any real "friends", just a lot of acquaintences. My pastor is really my best friend and it was he who told her that i needed her.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/16/12 01:44 AM
That's why I am suggesting that you continue Plan B for a while without ANY contact. See how you feel in a couple of weeks. As I said, the more you communicate with her, the more you will crave it. You still have LB balance for her. You will be venturing into dangerous territory and a HUGE possibility of crossing over to friends. Can you see her calling you with problems about dating? She'll start to lean on you for EN meeting, only when she needs you.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/16/12 02:07 AM
Originally Posted by Scotland
That's why I am suggesting that you continue Plan B for a while without ANY contact. See how you feel in a couple of weeks. As I said, the more you communicate with her, the more you will crave it. You still have LB balance for her.

As i think more about what i'm feeling now, craving is not how i would exactly describe it. Understand that i have absolutely no desire to pursue or initiate anything. If she never calls, i would be perfectly fine.

As far as the LB balance, I'm not sure that will ever go away. While I agree with 99.9% of what Dr. Harley says, his unconditional love stance is one i will say i don't. Unconditional love, it seems, is being confused with accepting anything from a person as long as they remain a part of your life. That's not the biblical definition.

Biblically speaking, and with God as our ultimate example, it means loving the unlovable. It means being willing to love in spite of flaws. It doesn't mean you have to let them use you. You can love from a distance until the opportunity comes where you can love up close.

Unfortunately, when Dr. Harley says the phrase "unconditional love" doesnt appear in the bible, he is both correct AND incorrect. In most english translations, it is not there but when you study the Greek text, you discover two different Greek words that translate into english as love - phileo (the root of Philadelphia) which means brotherly love, a love based on what someone does or doesnt do and agapeo which is means unconditional love, a volitional love. A large marjority of passages in the NT use agapeo, especially those that refer to God or Christ.

Originally Posted by Scotland
Can you see her calling you with problems about dating?


HECK NO! I won't let that happen. EVER!
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/27/12 02:31 PM
Update:

My pastor called yesterday wanting to get some info. He stated that my wxw and her mother called him claiming I had abandoned DD. He said wxw was crying about having to answer questions.

Her claims were based on me not answering dd's calls (which come from wxw's phone #). I told him I dont answer any calls from that number. I also told him she failed to mention she did not have dd at drop off point on Sunday as normal and then, I assume, called 2-3 hours later trying to make some different arrangements. That wasnt my fault.

And yes, i'm back in plan b...
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/27/12 03:49 PM
Did you tell pastor that you have an intermediary who could have contacted you to let you know about changes in parenting plans?

Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/27/12 04:05 PM
He's aware that one had been put in place but he's also aware that she has adamantly refused to use them. She has been getting around it any way she can.

For a while, she was sending messages thru the pastor until he told her he would no longer pass them. She had mil leave messages on my phone since I wouldnt answer the calls. Now she has DD call from her after school program with details.

He was surprised to hear she failed to follow our agreement for Sunday because it was all my fault. Imagine that.
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/27/12 04:24 PM
Have your IM contact her and state that all scheduling plans and changes of plans go through them in all instances so that it is clarified for all. In order for there to be no misunderstandings or lack of communication about them. Matter of factly.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/27/12 09:39 PM
If you are only going to accept communications through your IM, then you need to only accept communications through your IM.

If your MIL leaves a message on your answering machine, and it is from your WxW, you ignore it.

If your DD passes on something to you, you pretend it didn't happen.

Anytime your WxW sends messages through someone other than your IM, you ignore it.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/27/12 11:57 PM
I actually feel like breaking plan b was a mistake and not so much for my well being. Allowing her to comfort me during the loss of my grandfather and my subsequent thank you phone call might have given her the wrong impression.

I believe she now thinks it okay to call me or have DD call. She thinks i should respond to the messages now. She wants DD to be able to talk to me whenever she wants to.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/28/12 12:21 AM
Can you get your DD a Pay as you Go cell that she can use when she wants to call you? Or, could you have a code, where she calls and lets it ring twice, hangs up, and then calls back. This way you will know it is your DD instead of your WxW.

Do you think it may be in your best interest to have your IM send an email reiterating NC?
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/28/12 12:26 AM
Right now, i can't afford another phone. The code idea does sound good, though. DD will be with me tomorrow so i will get that done asap.

As for the im, i hope they are still willing. They havent been utilized since ww wouldnt respond. I'll contact them and see.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/28/12 12:38 AM
You see, that code thing is what we used to do in the good ol days, before call display, when I would call my parents. It can work, and you can let your DD know not to tell her mom.

Hopefully, your IM would still be willing. Also, have your IM make it clear to your WxW that any changes in visitations, etc, would need at least 48 hours notice, so there is a chance to get YOUR response. Sometimes, people expect IMMEDIATE answers to their questions.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/28/12 12:58 AM
The telling her mom thing is what i'm worried about. She WILL BE asked.

I'm optimistic about the im.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/29/12 03:14 PM
All of the suggestions have been taken care of. My IM was willing to resume and quickly sent an email stating so.

I drilled our code with DD and she seems to get it (she's VERY smart). We'll see how it goes.

I did recieve an email from wxw this morning (which went unread and quickly deleted) probably stating she would not communicate that way. Whatever it was, it's gone.
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/29/12 04:16 PM
Cool!

(xww doesn't 'own' you anymore!)
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 03/29/12 09:09 PM
Change your email address, then your WxW's emails won't matter cuz you won't even know they are there.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 04/01/12 08:11 PM
Well, the arrangement made with DD concerning her calling me will be short-lived. She called this morning and followed the plan perfectly. The problem is the short conversation was nothing but her passing along info from wxw who was heard in the background.

It's gonna pain me to have to do it but i will have to ignore everything i was told in order to set the standard for communication regarding her. She is only 8 and it is not and should not be her responsiblity to serve as IM.

I know much in terms of negative words will be said tomorrow when I don't heed what i've been told. My pastor has been made aware since wxw always calls him when something happens. He understands.

I did make sure that i reminded him i am not the cause of any of these issues. He agreed.
Posted By: Caracal Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 04/02/12 09:21 AM
Mark, you need to take action here... I am not experienced in how to handle kids in Plan B not having any of my own, but right now, your DD has been piggy in the middle. This is not fair or right for her.

I don't see how you can ignore this. If you HEARD WXW giving instructions... shut it down. Have your IM contact WXW and reiterate that ANY messages are to be passed through IM who decides if it is relevant or not. Should your DD be getting used as a means of communication, tell DD that you love her, but that it is NOT her job to repeat adult communication. Explain the role of the IM and that this is how her mother should communicate to you. Hopefully DD will understand, and may even start telling her mother to contact the IM.

Your WXW has not used IM so far. Ensure she understands your DD will not be IM, under any circumstances.
Posted By: Caracal Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 04/02/12 09:24 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
I did recieve an email from wxw this morning (which went unread and quickly deleted) probably stating she would not communicate that way. Whatever it was, it's gone.
Given this was so soon after IM was reinstated, I would have chosen to have IM send a message explaining that the message was deleted unread, and if WXW had any important message to communicate to please contact the IM.

Be a broken record mark. Train your WXW. If she can't reach you any other way (including shutting down your pastor) she will likely play ball. Or not. But that is at her loss, because her messages won't reach you when she really wants them to.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 04/02/12 05:57 PM
I have asked IM to send another messag basically stating that all other attempts of communication will be ignored other than through IM. We'll see what happens.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 04/16/12 03:07 AM
To all who have followed my long story, I just wa.ted to share a few things ive come to realize...

As I sat and thought through a few things that have happened since my now 18 month saga began, I'm firmly convinced this whole situation has had less to do with my relationship with my wxw and more to do about my relationship with God. I do realize there were mistakes I made during my marriage, as we all have, but I believe there was a much deeper purpose.

I WAS a minister who didnt have an intimate relationship with God and really and truly wasnt seeking one. While I believe ministry is my calling, I wasnt personally trying to get closer to him. I didnt have a regular prayer life. I didnt have regular bible study. When I did study, it was simply for the purpose of preaching (i'm an associate minister who preaches an avg of 4-5 times a yr). I had a porn addiction that consumed me. Knowing it was wrong, most of the time I would stop long enough to prepare a sermon, only to resume after the sermon was delivered.

The minor aspects of all i've gone thru, imho, was my lack of understanding about marriage and being a Godly husband.

On the outside, everyone may have believed I had it all together with my family, my faith, etc. but I was living a lie. I knew it but more importantly God knew it. Sometimes, we have to be stripped of everything in order to realize certain things.

It has been a painful process to endure but the future benefits will out weigh the hurt that I went through. I now pray regularly, usually several times a day. I have a devotional period everyday that I actually look forward to, anticipating a daily encounter with God. The porn is gone and I don't really miss it. I've learned a lot of lessons I would have never learned had I not gone thru it all.

I never thought I would ever say this, but i'm actually thankful for the experience.
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 04/16/12 04:12 AM
Mark, it wasn't God's purpose and you aren't thankful being betrayed (because that would be cruel of him and being betrayed just plain sucks)

but

it is sure nice to have some very cool results despite it all!
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 04/16/12 05:09 AM
Reading, it does seem so contradictory but scripture is full of examples of God allowing evil for a greater good. He used a sinful nation to punish Israel. He allowed Joseph to endure been a slave and a prisoner to save his people in the end. He let Lazarus die (Jesus intentionally stayed away after hearing of the sickness and even said he was glad about it - John 11:15). There are many other examples as well. All were for the purpose of accomplishing His purpose.

What is His purpose for my experiences? I can't say for sure but I do know without a shadow of a doubt that His glory is the end result. What matters to Him the most is our relationship with Him and sometimes He has to use extreme measures to get our attention.
Posted By: abc098 Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 04/21/12 06:49 PM
It's been months since I looked at this website and for some reason I looked at it today and you're the first familiar name I came across.

We all have to find a reason that our ex-spouses cheated on us and find the positive in it like you are. Life is a journey, you have to ride it with all the ups and downs.

Although I am not religious like you are at this point in my life, I have used this experience to try to better myself in all areas of life. Finally a year and a half after it all started I think I am at peace about it.

Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/05/12 06:18 PM
Well, I thought Id stop by and give an update:

Things seem to be going even further downhill for me, but I remain optimistic in the face of it all.

3 months after I quit my 9-5 job in January to work exclusively at my then part-time job as a waiter for a fairly upscale restaurant, business hit a slow period. I was forced to discontinue my workouts because I couldn't afford the drive to the other side of town regularly.

I have since fallen behind on CS, I anticipate being evicted since I was already behind and have fallen further. I had what I thought was a way to get caught up but that fell through. Just Thursday night, I had to park my car indefinitely (i got pulled over) until I get my tags and license renewed because they both expired recently and I didn't have the money to get that done yet (I still don't).

I have been trying to find another job but have not been successful as of yet. I do still have a couple of coals in the fire, so I will see how those pan out. I did have a brief relapse into the world of pornography just days after I posted I didn't miss it. I�d allowed the many negative aspects of my life to send me spiraling downward into self-pity mode, so I just stopped caring about what was right, especially in Gods eyes.

The car situation now makes it difficult for me to spend time with DD temporarily because I have no family around to help me with that. I have no way to take her to school in the morning or pick her up after school to take her to gymnastics. At times, I do feel like I'm on an island all by myself. No family closer than 3 states away and seemingly no one else who cares but oh well.

I still haven't had any contact with WxW since the one time in March and I don't plan on it, but at the same time I still haven't stopped wearing my ring.

As I write this, I feel like this may be one of the saddest stories anyone might ever read but yet, I write and smile at the same time because my faith, even though it once faltered, keeps me optimistic. I can smile because I know that even when things are as they are, as bad as it looks, God is with me. I may not be able to see beyond now but I'm convinced God has a plan.

That's enough to make me smile....
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/05/12 08:29 PM
I am sorry for your financial straits.
I hope things turn around for you soon.
Have you thought of finding a room mate living situation for a while?
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/05/12 08:34 PM
No but I might have to. Heck, I might just need a place to stay period in a few days.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/10/12 03:40 AM
Well, I am now able to legally drive again. Also, my apartment manager told me I'm not at risk of eviction (thank you Lord). On a negative note, my job prospects fell through so Im still looking.
Posted By: xtremepain Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/10/12 04:00 AM
For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. Matthew 7:8


You are in my prayer.

Posted By: BrainHurts Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/10/12 04:35 AM
Originally Posted by xtremepain
You are in my prayer.

X2
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/10/12 09:09 PM
I would like to get some input on something. Maybe someone has dealt with something similar.

I was informed this weekend by DD that I won't have her on my next weekend because WxW is taking her to Tennessee to see her neice graduate. I am not okay with this. This will be the second time in 2 months that I will lose my time because of something WxW does. Last time was in march when she just didn't drop her off at the pickup point.

Can I go back to the court and file contempt? I'm just so tired of her doing whatever she wants to do. If I go back to court, I will also bear the evidence of her continued contact inspite of being harshly reprimanded by the judge last time.

Since then, I have received messages thru dd's backpack. I've gotten things in the mail from her and some phones calls.

I think I might have so something I've wanted to avoid and that is get her in trouble. I've never wanted to do that because I do still love her but I'm tired of her doing whatever she wants with no consequences.

Any input would be appreciated.
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/10/12 09:49 PM
I would let her go but send info that you will take a different weekend to take its place.

Nice but you get time with dd and dd gets to go to the lovely graduation.

Hopefully that will work for you.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/10/12 10:13 PM
Due to the fact that I work weekends, I have a set schedule where my weekends alternate. And to be honest, I'm less bothered by the graduation and more bothered by not having a choice in the matter.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/10/12 10:21 PM
Are you documenting all these changes in the visitation?

In case you do go back.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/10/12 10:43 PM
Yes. The bad part is she has refused using IM so we have NO method of communication. I've sent messages but she won't respond, choosing to communicate through our 8 yr old daughter.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/10/12 11:41 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Yes. The bad part is she has refused using IM so we have NO method of communication. I've sent messages but she won't respond, choosing to communicate through our 8 yr old daughter.

That's so unhealthy for your DD8.

Have you had your IM send another message reiterating the way to communicate?

What does your attorney say?

Have you ignored the messages? Told your DD that it's not her job to relay messages from her mother?

Parallel parenting has done wonders for me.
Have you read this? Parallel parenting
Posted By: SusieQ Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/11/12 12:28 AM
mark, first of all regarding the communication, set up an email account and tell your WW it's for her to communicate with you regarding DD (don't say anything about an IM) and then just have your IM manage the account. This has worked for myself and others. Tell her it is unacceptable to use DD to pass messages.

If your WW won't comply with that, I would drag her azz into court because I don't believe any judge will appreciate her using your DD as a messenger...

Have you talked to your atty about what she is doing? She shouldn't be changing ANY weekends without your consent. And like reading said, if it is a special event like a graduation and you DO want to agree, she needs to give you the time back with another weekend. But you need to be careful because with waywards, you give them an inch and they take a mile. I allowed STBX one change and then it turned into a free for all. I had to reign things back in and start saying no to every single request for changes...

Sorry you are going through this...
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/11/12 12:35 AM
Do you read the notes found in the backpack?

I would have the IM inform your WxW that she needs to stop sending messages through your DD. It is unfair to have your DD be used in this way. Is there still a protective order in effect?
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/11/12 01:32 AM
BH, I know its unhealthy. When I tried to setup a code for her to call me whenever she wanted, she followed the plan perfectly. But when I realized her mother was passing messages (I could hear her in the background), I had to stop it. I did talk to DD and told her why.

Yes, I had IM send another message stating this but she refused and even threatened him if he didn't stop sending her messages (she doesn't know him).

I don't have and attorney anymore. After the short custody battle and D were finalized, he withdrew himself. And yes, I know about parallel parenting and actually tried to push for it but the GAL told me I was being unreasonable and that I should just accept the divorce and do what's best for DD. My lawyer just followed the GAL's recommendations.

Susie, I might just have to do that but there is still a problem. She won't give me a personal email address since I found out so much about her infidelity through her old one. If I need to communicate, I has to be done Monday - Friday thru her work email address.

Maybe I wouldn't be so bothered by the special event had I had a chance to decide if I wanted to allow it. But I didn't and that what bothers me. To this point, she has absolutely gotten everything her way with no repercussions.

I know no judge would be happy about her using our daughter as a messenger, especially ours. If he were made aware of it, I'm sure he would blow a gasket considering also that my WxW continues to defy him with the notes. His words to her after complaining I wouldn't respond (after she was granted her bogus PO) were "Mrs. Marksaysay, you wanted this and now you're complaining. You are not to communicate with via phone, email, text, or SMOKE SIGNAL! NOTHING!"

The PO is active until June 2013 and yes, I did read the notes.

Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/11/12 01:46 AM
Also, during the D, I notified my attorney of the notes and asked them to push to have the PO dropped/removed (whatever the proper term is) since she was in violation even after being reprimanded. His paralegal just spoke to her and asked her to stop, which she hasn't. The y said she wouldn't agree to that. I didn't think we should get her permission when SHE was in violation. Needless to say, the judge was not made aware.

The GAL then had them draw up a modification allowing us to communicate via email. I refused it. I didn't want to directly communicate with her. I wanted it done away with because it was bogus and she repeatedly violated it. The refused to pursue that.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/11/12 01:49 AM
Susie means that you get an email addy that you pass on as YOURS, and have an IM be the one to actually receive and send messages through that address so you don't actually see the emails. It has been done before.
Posted By: Viper Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/11/12 01:51 AM
Well then Mark, it sounds like just need to head back to court and get this straightened out legally. I know it's not the course of action you want to pursue, but I think it's the course you need to pursue. Your X is just being petty and vindictive, and it's time to put a stop to it.

She is choosing to use your daughter as a pawn to manipulate you even after divorce. Not right and not cool. You need to draw the line here and now. JMO

You have a judge that has warned her before, and she has ignored his order repeatedly. I don't think she would be all that pleased to have to face him again. Pretty sure he wouldn't be too fond of having his orders ignored either.

You need to protect you, you daughter, and your parental rights now. Her petty crap is irrelevant.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/11/12 01:57 AM
Originally Posted by Scotland
Susie means that you get an email addy that you pass on as YOURS, and have an IM be the one to actually receive and send messages through that address so you don't actually see the emals. It has been done before.

I understood but with the PO, we're not to have any direct communication. The 2 email address wouldn't work.
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/11/12 02:03 AM
You said that the GAL wanted to amend your PO to allow emails.

If you're going to shoot down these types of ideas, then your only recourse is to go to court. Either that, or live with it.

The reason I asked you if you read the notes is because this shows her that even though you say you won't communicate with her, you still are. Communication needs a speaker and a listener. Stop being that listener. What types of things is she sending in these notes? Is there anyway that you could contact your GAL and let her know that she is using your child as a go-between? I don't know how GAL's work where you are, but I thought they were meant to protect the child's rights.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/11/12 02:10 AM
Originally Posted by TigerWes
Well then Mark, it sounds like just need to head back to court and get this straightened out legally. I know it's not the course of action you want to pursue, but I think it's the course you need to pursue. Your X is just being petty and vindictive, and it's time to put a stop to it.

She is choosing to use your daughter as a pawn to manipulate you even after divorce. Not right and not cool. You need to draw the line here and now. JMO

You have a judge that has warned her before, and she has ignored his order repeatedly. I don't think she would be all that pleased to have to face him again. Pretty sure he wouldn't be too fond of having his orders ignored either.

You need to protect you, you daughter, and your parental rights now. Her petty crap is irrelevant.

No, it wouldn't go very well for her if I went back to the court with everything. The judge laid into her pretty good last time. One thing that I see as a negative is I met with her in March when my grandfather passed. I know. Bad move but she called minutes after i found out (my pastor told her) and wanted to be there for me because I literally have no one else. We both stand a chance at getting in trouble. I'm to the point where I'm willing to even risk that myself if I can put a stop to all of this bull.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/11/12 02:22 AM
Originally Posted by Scotland
You said that the GAL wanted to amend your PO to allow emails.

If you're going to shoot down these types of ideas, then your only recourse is to go to court. Either that, or live with it.

The reason I asked you if you read the notes is because this shows her that even though you say you won't communicate with her, you still are. Communication needs a speaker and a listener. Stop being that listener. What types of things is she sending in these notes? Is there anyway that you could contact your GAL and let her know that she is using your child as a go-between? I don't know how GAL's work where you are, but I thought they were meant to protect the child's rights.

In all actuality, Susie, I wanted to go back to court. I wanted to fight more. I really didn't want to agree to the terms of the divorce when I did. My lawyer and my GAL told me I would be looking at close to $4,000 more to go to trial, etc. I was already working 2 jobs to finishing paying for the lawyer to begin with. When they told me that, I just threw in the towel.

And I have been dealing with it. Now its starting to be too much. Im also sure the GAL will not approve of the messages.

Concerning the notes, I realized that I had to stop reading them as well as listening to what DD said. I did simply act on what was on the notes, I.e. dentist appointment's and such, but I stopped a while ago.
Posted By: Viper Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/11/12 02:23 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Originally Posted by TigerWes
Well then Mark, it sounds like just need to head back to court and get this straightened out legally. I know it's not the course of action you want to pursue, but I think it's the course you need to pursue. Your X is just being petty and vindictive, and it's time to put a stop to it.

She is choosing to use your daughter as a pawn to manipulate you even after divorce. Not right and not cool. You need to draw the line here and now. JMO

You have a judge that has warned her before, and she has ignored his order repeatedly. I don't think she would be all that pleased to have to face him again. Pretty sure he wouldn't be too fond of having his orders ignored either.

You need to protect you, you daughter, and your parental rights now. Her petty crap is irrelevant.

No, it wouldn't go very well for her if I went back to the court with everything. The judge laid into her pretty good last time. One thing that I see as a negative is I met with her in March when my grandfather passed. I know. Bad move but she called minutes after i found out (my pastor told her) and wanted to be there for me because I literally have no one else. We both stand a chance at getting in trouble. I'm to the point where I'm willing to even risk that myself if I can put a stop to all of this bull.
I seriously doubt that this judge would hold this kind of break of his order against you. He would have to be one cold hearted SOB to do so, and considering the circumstances, I just don't see it happening. Remember, she called you and you were very vulnerable because you had just lost someone very close to you. I wouldn't worry about this becoming a legal problem for you one bit. Again, I simply do not see it happening.

You have an ally in this judge. You need to use it. I know you don't want to, and I understand that, but what she is doing is just flat out wrong.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/11/12 02:27 AM
mark, does your state have "self-help" in the court system? Please call and check. Here in my state they have a day where you can go in and sit down with an atty who will help you file court actions on your own.

I don't know what you will have to do but letting your WW use your DD as a messenger is UNACCEPTABLE.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/11/12 02:33 AM
Are you documenting everything?
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/11/12 02:36 AM
Yes! I have even kept all the notes.
She can't unilaterally decide to take a weekend away from you.

I do think that since you're divorced that you need to drop the Plan B. I say that as someone who understands what you're doing, but you're not trying to preserve feelings for your WXW.

At this point, your DD should be your primary motivator.

I would file something legally fighting the weekend takeaway. You should, at a minimum, document everything.

What exactly is the order regarding communications?

I was told by the parenting coordinator in my case that we should not communicate by phone unless someone was about to die or it was an emergency. I conditioned my WXW to put everything in emails and she followed suit right after.

If you do desire to maintain darkness and use an IM, then pursue that, but eventually you'll have to drop that if you stay divorced. Total darkness when kids are in the picture, especially for men, is nearly impossible and there comes a point when you flat out don't care anymore and can communicate with an ex when necessary for the kids.

I think that a general policy of not communicating over the phone or in person is called for, but it's really hard to do as a man who doesn't have primary custody. Your failure to answer to certain things can surely backfire on you legally.

I also tell you to not read too much into the reprimand the judge gave your WXW. Judges do that sometimes to make themselves feel better after giving custody to a mom who really doesn't deserve it.

I would recommend to put a legal protest into family court. Represent yourself if necessary or show up with the police and a copy of your court order. The cops can enforce a court order and you can show them that you are supposed to have your child and she's denying you.

They can't do anything without an order, however.

But if you let things slide they can use that against you in the future.

So have the cops go get your DD and charge her with either alienation of affection or something else depending on what a lawyer may advise.

If you can't afford a lawyer, then call the cops at a minimum.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/12/12 06:04 PM
Sorry for the late reply to this but with all the editing I wanted to do, I wanted to wait 'til I had computer access. Hard to do on phone...

Originally Posted by helpthelostdads
She can't unilaterally decide to take a weekend away from you.

I do think that since you're divorced that you need to drop the Plan B. I say that as someone who understands what you're doing, but you're not trying to preserve feelings for your WXW.

So does divorced mean that I'm not trying to preserve love? I do still love her and I am trying to preserve love. That's just a fact. Divorced or not.

Originally Posted by helpthelostdads
At this point, your DD should be your primary motivator.

I would file something legally fighting the weekend takeaway. You should, at a minimum, document everything.

What exactly is the order regarding communications?

I was told by the parenting coordinator in my case that we should not communicate by phone unless someone was about to die or it was an emergency. I conditioned my WXW to put everything in emails and she followed suit right after.

Prior to D being final, we communicated through my lawyer. Now, I don't have a lawyer. The GAL wanted MIL to be our IM but I refused that. I was told by WxW to stop contacting her mother when I exposed. NOW they want me to communicate with her. In addition, MIL told me that wxw wasn't doing anything wrong by seeing other people because we were seperated. I'm sorry for being judgemental but that is not the view a Christian should have (even though I know many do).

Originally Posted by helpthelostdads
If you do desire to maintain darkness and use an IM, then pursue that, but eventually you'll have to drop that if you stay divorced. Total darkness when kids are in the picture, especially for men, is nearly impossible and there comes a point when you flat out don't care anymore and can communicate with an ex when necessary for the kids.

Why is it impossible? At this point, I've still been an active part of my DD's life and all while being totally dark.

Originally Posted by helpthelostdads
I think that a general policy of not communicating over the phone or in person is called for, but it's really hard to do as a man who doesn't have primary custody. Your failure to answer to certain things can surely backfire on you legally.

Failure to answer to what kind of things?

Originally Posted by helpthelostdads
I also tell you to not read too much into the reprimand the judge gave your WXW. Judges do that sometimes to make themselves feel better after giving custody to a mom who really doesn't deserve it.

You may be right, but our judge is known throughout the community as being one with a temper and one who can be harsh. If it were to be brought to his attention her repeated violations in light of his stern reprimand, I believe she would be in big trouble.

Originally Posted by helpthelostdads
I would recommend to put a legal protest into family court. Represent yourself if necessary or show up with the police and a copy of your court order. The cops can enforce a court order and you can show them that you are supposed to have your child and she's denying you.

They can't do anything without an order, however.

This does present a problem. The order says something different. After the PO was put into place, I wasn't able to see daughter at all due being unable to communicate. When the GAL got involved, my work situation was assessed (I was working to jobs - 8-5 Mon-Fri and 5:30 to 10 pm on 4-5 nights a wk and mostly on weekends) and I began getting her on Wednesdays and Sundays. The order says more time, which is eventually the goal. It's just not that way right now.

Originally Posted by helpthelostdads
But if you let things slide they can use that against you in the future.

So have the cops go get your DD and charge her with either alienation of affection or something else depending on what a lawyer may advise.

If you can't afford a lawyer, then call the cops at a minimum.

I do believe I need to do something before they go on the trip. On Monday, I plan on trying to get something done. What that is right now, I just don't know....
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 05/13/12 11:40 PM
MANY BSs choose to continue PB even after a divorce. I don't see a problem with that.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/17/12 05:18 PM
Wow! I didn't realize it had been over a month since my last post. I very rarely even read the thread at all anymore but I just thought I'd share something from last night.

I decided to go out and enjoy myself for a bit. I had been standing out front chatting with a few people for about 15 min. when here comes my wxw and 2 of her gfs. The 3 entered the building, walked right by me and I DID NOT CARE.

She obviously didn't care about the bogus PO she has against me since I was there 1st so neither did I. At first I contemplated leaving because they were there. That thought was quickly scrapped. I entered a few minutes later, walked within 2 ft of the trio without eye contact, bought a beer and sat down. I had planned to do it anyhow, so that's what I did.

They ended up leaving about 1/2 later but I REALLY DIDN'T CARE!!!

This was only the 2nd time I've seen her in over a year. In the days and months before, I would have literally fell apart and probably even left, allowing simply her presence to fluster me. That didn't happen and it felt GREAT.

At one time, I came her proclaiming my "unconditional" love and now I even wonder if I still even love her at all. One thing I am totally sure of is I've let her go.......

In some ways, I almost seem like last night's encounter was some sort of victory. I mean, I can barely tell you what she had on or even what she looked like. I noticed she was wearing white pants and that she had long braids, but other than that I don't even know. Once I entered, I didn't even look her direction.

She was probably quite surprised to see me out and drinking a beer. I hadn't done either of those things in the last 6-8 years of our marriage. Actually I hadn't drank in 10 yrs. Maybe that's a regression of sorts but I don't drink to get drunk. I don't even drink at home.

But nonetheless, I'm happy about how things went last night....
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/17/12 09:12 PM
Cool!
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/18/12 10:09 PM
Mark, they say that the opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference. Seems to me like you are headed in the right direction, and that is definitely something to be proud of. You did EVERYTHING you could to save your marriage. Good on ya.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/24/12 03:42 PM
So this makes 2 weeks in a row that I've encountered my wxw on a night out. This time i didn't realize she was in the same establishment (it was a packed house) until a mutual friend told me they saw her. I REALLY DIDN'T CARE!!!

I stayed and did what I'd planned to do, have a good time, and i did. I shot the breeze with some guys, drank a couple of beers, danced, and simply enjoyed myself. I did pass wxw a few times throughout the night but, again I didn't care.

At one point, i stepped out to catch some air and passed her with some overweight guy. I didn't care. I actually laughed because I'm a former college/pro baseball player who has maintained my physique over the years. The guy she was with didn't seem much like an upgrade....oh well.

Last time, I wished I'd had a girl on my arm. This time I was glad I was alone. I had a good time all by myself and I'm SURE she saw it.
Posted By: Caracal Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/25/12 09:42 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Last time, I wished I'd had a girl on my arm. This time I was glad I was alone. I had a good time all by myself and I'm SURE she saw it.
weightlifter This is true MB warrior style.

Mark, I'm really glad you are finding such peace and happiness. I read your fight for your marriage, you deserve this.

It really is a turning point when we no longer make choices concerned with the wayward reaction huh? I have a way to go with this (but am making progress!), but you are inspiring and it helps to follow your progress.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/25/12 07:21 PM
You will not get me on an "entitlement" kick because I know too much about life to think I "deserve" anything other that what's currently going on in my life.

I will say, though, that I have made great strides towards my healing and recovery. I'm actually taking another step now, as we speak. I decided to finally completely update my fb page. I'm deleting pictures, changing statuses, etc. This includes going from Married to Single.

I'd not done this because there had always been a hope that somehow, someway things would work out differently. That hope seems have all but totally evaporated. There may be a morsel of hope left, but it is TINY.

I also wasn't ready for the questions that would come once everyone knew. I guess I'm ready now.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/27/12 08:34 PM
WOW! What is going on???

Today, I ran into my wxw twice. This makes 4 times in the last 2 weeks. Before that, I had only seen her once in 8 months.

The first encounter today was as I was driving by a house where she must have been working (she's a social worker). When I turned the corner, I saw her standing on the porch. When I passed, I looked in the rearview and her eyes were fixed on my car.

The second encounter today was about 1/2 hour later. I met up at the park to chat with a girl a met recently and my wxw drives up. Again, she seemed to be working, but i was surprised she stayed because it was obvious she saw me standing there.

I didn't stay once she got out (since her PO says I'm a physical threat to her...which i'm not). But the real reason I left was the point was made even clearer than what she witnessed the last 2 saturday nights.

The last 2 Saturday she's seen me out having a good time by myself. Today, she saw me talking to another women. She now should understand that I AM MOVING ON!!!!

Posted By: BrainHurts Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/27/12 08:39 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
WOW! What is going on???

Today, I ran into my wxw twice. This makes 4 times in the last 2 weeks. Before that, I had only seen her once in 8 months.

The first encounter today was as I was driving by a house where she must have been working (she's a social worker). When I turned the corner, I saw her standing on the porch. When I passed, I looked in the rearview and her eyes were fixed on my car.

The second encounter today was about 1/2 hour later. I met up at the park to chat with a girl a met recently and my wxw drives up. Again, she seemed to be working, but i was surprised she stayed because it was obvious she saw me standing there.

I didn't stay once she got out (since her PO says I'm a physical threat to her...which i'm not). But the real reason I left was the point was made even clearer than what she witnessed the last 2 saturday nights.

The last 2 Saturday she's seen me out having a good time by myself. Today, she saw me talking to another women. She now should understand that I AM MOVING ON!!!!


Will you ever be able to get the PO removed?

Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/27/12 08:44 PM
It expires July '13.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/27/12 09:05 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
It expires July '13.
Well the best revenge is living your life well. Which I'm sure your WW has taken note.

Keep enjoying your life. How's your DD doing?
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/27/12 09:06 PM
She's doing good, thanks.

And yeah, I'm pretty sure she's taken note. YEAH ME!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/27/12 09:15 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
She's doing good, thanks.

And yeah, I'm pretty sure she's taken note. YEAH ME!
clap hurray
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/27/12 11:30 PM
I haven't posted anything about this recently, because as I read your updates about seeing your WxW out, while you were both at bars, all I thought was, "WHo was taking care of DD?" Can you get more time with her?

And by being out at a park with a woman you met, does this mean you are dating? If it does, that's okay, I'm just curious.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/27/12 11:36 PM
My work schedule, in addition to our communication issue, prevents me from more time at this point. The 2 night-out encounters were on Saturdays. I get DD every other Sunday and every wednesday.

The question about DD whereabouts is one that I can't answer. I've wondered the same thing since I knew DD wasn't with me. MIL? Friends? Other relatives of hers? IDK

And yes, I am dating. WOW! It felt good to actually say that!!!
Posted By: Scotland Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/29/12 12:29 AM
Quote
And yes, I am dating. WOW! It felt good to actually say that!!!

And this right here is where personal recovery takes you. Remember not that long ago stating that you wouldn't? Weird huh?
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/29/12 03:17 AM
I finally got to the point where i feel its simply her loss. Its just time for me to move on. And yes, it does feel weird! Very weird!!!!
Posted By: Pepperband Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/29/12 02:18 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
I finally got to the point where i feel its simply her loss. Its just time for me to move on. And yes, it does feel weird! Very weird!!!!

I'm sure it feels weird. But it's totally logical considering the LOVE BANK theory.
You did love her once. Never doubt that. You're not any sort of dummy for having loved her.
She failed to protect the marriage and committed so many fouls and love-busters, that your love-bank balance is now far, far below the red line.

Now that you are dating, be sure to remember all that MB has to offer.
Dating = a healthy renter status. That's OK.
Love-bank availability means you are open for business.
Be smart.
Keep posting from time to time.
Have you read this thread ??? Optimism's divorce story

....... You should!
Sept 2010 freshly divorced from a WW --- June 2012 freshly engaged to a terrific woman <~~~ A TRUE MB success story !!!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/29/12 05:03 PM
Agree with Pep. Opt's story is a very good read with lots of excellent information. Keep following his story because he and his new GF (NG) were on the show and she is on board with MB. Very good.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/29/12 08:34 PM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Originally Posted by marksaysay
I finally got to the point where i feel its simply her loss. Its just time for me to move on. And yes, it does feel weird! Very weird!!!!

I'm sure it feels weird. But it's totally logical considering the LOVE BANK theory.
You did love her once. Never doubt that. You're not any sort of dummy for having loved her.
She failed to protect the marriage and committed so many fouls and love-busters, that your love-bank balance is now far, far below the red line.

Now that you are dating, be sure to remember all that MB has to offer.
Dating = a healthy renter status. That's OK.
Love-bank availability means you are open for business.
Be smart.
Keep posting from time to time.
Have you read this thread ??? Optimism's divorce story

....... You should!
Sept 2010 freshly divorced from a WW --- June 2012 freshly engaged to a terrific woman <~~~ A TRUE MB success story !!!

I wonder if it is the negative love bank or, as I've heard it described, embers waiting to be rekindled.

And i never thought about love-bank availability part, either. It definitely makes me think. In some ways, i feel vulnerable because ive been by myself for so long. I didnt have a desire to date, therefore, there was no temptations.

Now that I'm actively dating, I need to be careful not to move too fast. I met the girl my wxw saw me with about a month ago. We have started to spend a lot of time together. It feels good but i wonder is it too much too soon.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/29/12 09:50 PM
If you think it's too much too soon then it probably is.

Give yourself enough time to heal.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 06/30/12 02:18 AM
Well, it all started in Oct. '10. Been divorced since Dec. '11. That's 18+ months. Maybe its just time.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/20/12 04:38 AM
Well, it looks like its been quite a while since I've been here. Just thought I'd give a quick update.

I'm still single but its by choice. Hadnt met anyone that ive been too crazy about. There's been some dating but nothing serious.

Right now, ive kinda submerged myself into music. I havent starting writing (I probably should, though). Right now, i do a lot of popular music. I play piano/keyboard and i sing and I've been approached with several band offers.
I do a lot of solo open mic nights and was asked if i would like to be on a local spotlight show on a local TV station.

It was weird! This guy just walked up and interrupted me after my second song. Anyway....i think i might do it. Who knows? I simply started do this music thing because i love it and I'm pretty good at it...
Mark, great job developing new passions! The music must be a wonderful outlet for your emotions...I know I personally turn to music when I have hard to express emotions, and really appreciate the artists who can so eloquently express our common human experiences. Makes me feel not so alone. Good luck to you!
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/21/12 04:23 PM
New road has opened up to you Mark.....yay!

I wish you much joy with your music.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/21/12 04:42 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Well, it looks like its been quite a while since I've been here. Just thought I'd give a quick update.

I'm still single but its by choice. Hadnt met anyone that ive been too crazy about. There's been some dating but nothing serious.

Right now, ive kinda submerged myself into music. I havent starting writing (I probably should, though). Right now, i do a lot of popular music. I play piano/keyboard and i sing and I've been approached with several band offers.
I do a lot of solo open mic nights and was asked if i would like to be on a local spotlight show on a local TV station.

It was weird! This guy just walked up and interrupted me after my second song. Anyway....i think i might do it. Who knows? I simply started do this music thing because i love it and I'm pretty good at it...
So nice to hear from you Mark.

Glad you're enjoying your music. hurray

How's your DD doing?

Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 10/22/12 09:44 PM
Well, I just got off the phone and I have my first paying gig next Monday!!!

BTW, DD is doing well...
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/04/12 05:44 PM
Well, my first gig is tomorrow night. I have 30 minutes to fill and I've narrowed my song choices down to 7. I will just prepare them all and just feel out the crowd.

I invited about 100 people via fb and word of mouth. Several have stated they would be attending. I am soooooooo excited!!!!
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/04/12 06:55 PM
Good luck
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/04/12 09:51 PM
Yup. Enjoy and just keep plugging along performing and you will get better and better and get more people in your network of fans and musician friends.

clap
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/05/12 01:56 AM
Reading, that's my plan. I can remember last October, I posted about going out doing karaoke with coworkers. Now I'm playing a gig!
Posted By: Caracal Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/05/12 02:18 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Reading, that's my plan. I can remember last October, I posted about going out doing karaoke with coworkers. Now I'm playing a gig!
hurray
Good luck and have fun... Glad things are good for you.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/05/12 03:42 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Reading, that's my plan. I can remember last October, I posted about going out doing karaoke with coworkers. Now I'm playing a gig!
hurray so happy for you mark
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/10/12 03:23 AM
Just thought I'd let you all know the show went well. I ended up doing 6 songs. I definitely learned I need to recondition my vocal cords. I hadn't sang that much in years and I felt my voice tiring about the end of song 3. I just lowered my remaining songs a half step or two and finished fairly well.

About 10 of the 100+ people I invited showed up. It was nice to have some familiar faces out there. It wasn't a huge crowd but it was nice. AND I got paid to do it!!!
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/10/12 04:17 AM
Yay!

Yes, singing more than three songs is stressful on a voice. I don't know how people do it!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/10/12 04:37 AM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Just thought I'd let you all know the show went well. I ended up doing 6 songs. I definitely learned I need to recondition my vocal cords. I hadn't sang that much in years and I felt my voice tiring about the end of song 3. I just lowered my remaining songs a half step or two and finished fairly well.

About 10 of the 100+ people I invited showed up. It was nice to have some familiar faces out there. It wasn't a huge crowd but it was nice. AND I got paid to do it!!!

hurray
Posted By: Caracal Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 11/10/12 06:46 AM
Congrats!
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/05/13 03:52 PM
Its been a few months since I've posted anything but i want to know everyone's thoughts on something.

Its been over 2 yrs since my saga began. We've been divorced since December
Still NC with WxW but I'm getting a sense that DD might start asking questions sooner than later. Some of her statements to me lately cause me to believe this.

She has openly started expressing displeasure with her mother (which i quickly put to a halt) and is really starting to show affects of everything IMHO. WxW and her family, Im sure want everyone to believe all is well concerning DD (who is 9) but i know better.

My question? While i am an extreme advocate of telling the truth in appropriate ways, how much do i tell her now? I told her about the adultery (in an age appropriate way) quite some time ago but as a veey mature and smart 9 yr old, i get the feeling she will want to know more soon.

What should I do?
Posted By: reading Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/05/13 04:51 PM
First......don't put a halt to dd expressing displeasure with mom. That is telling dd she can not share her inner thoughts. You can let her vent and give her feelings validation but tell dd that it is okay to vent but that you, as father, feel that she should not let anger envelope her towards her mother. That she ought to know that she can not control mom but be open to any good stuff between them. Mom is not all bad.

Second.....you did tell dd that the marriage did not survive due to mom dating someone else. I don't know what you need to tell dd other than that?


Just attempt to address what is all factual and respectful to all parties AND gives your dd info she needs in her own life and future.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/05/13 05:15 PM
Thanks Reading! I would have to agree with you about her comments concerning mom. I will readdress it with her so that she does know she can talk to me. Great thought!!!

As far as my conversation with DD, she was 7 when I told her and I don't think she understood, especially since her immediate comments afterwards were concerning a toy or game or something along those lines.

What I feel is that she is just now starting to understand it all and will want to know more.
Tell her you respect her feelings and have had many conflicted feelings yourself about the end of the marriage but that you're willing to answer questions or talk to her about it whenever she wants to. I think the important thing is that she fels safe talking to you. Do you know if your WxW bad mouths you?
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/06/13 03:07 PM
Originally Posted by JenniferVoyager
Tell her you respect her feelings and have had many conflicted feelings yourself about the end of the marriage but that you're willing to answer questions or talk to her about it whenever she wants to. I think the important thing is that she fels safe talking to you. Do you know if your WxW bad mouths you?

Wow! More great input! I knew you all wouldn't let me down. I was thinking along this line, JV, but I wasn't sure exactly how truthful I should be about certain things, especially how I felt about it all. If she asks, I will answer.

I do not know if my wxw bad mouths me. I have no clue. I haven't seen or spoke to her since my grandfather died in March. Before that it was June the previous year. DD says nothing about what her mom says about me. We never even mention her.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/06/13 10:16 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Originally Posted by JenniferVoyager
Tell her you respect her feelings and have had many conflicted feelings yourself about the end of the marriage but that you're willing to answer questions or talk to her about it whenever she wants to. I think the important thing is that she fels safe talking to you. Do you know if your WxW bad mouths you?

Wow! More great input! I knew you all wouldn't let me down. I was thinking along this line, JV, but I wasn't sure exactly how truthful I should be about certain things, especially how I felt about it all. If she asks, I will answer.

I do not know if my wxw bad mouths me. I have no clue. I haven't seen or spoke to her since my grandfather died in March. Before that it was June the previous year. DD says nothing about what her mom says about me. We never even mention her.
Excellent parallel parenting.
Posted By: marksaysay Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/07/13 05:30 PM
I never really think of it as parallel parenting. To me, it's almost like having used an eraser. There was once such a thing as me, wife, and daughter. Now it's me and daughter!!!

I don't know what's going on in wxw's life and I don't care to know what's going on in her life.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: At wit's end - currently in Plan b - 01/10/13 02:30 PM
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Its been a few months since I've posted anything but i want to know everyone's thoughts on something.

Its been over 2 yrs since my saga began. We've been divorced since December
Still NC with WxW but I'm getting a sense that DD might start asking questions sooner than later. Some of her statements to me lately cause me to believe this.

She has openly started expressing displeasure with her mother (which i quickly put to a halt) and is really starting to show affects of everything IMHO. WxW and her family, Im sure want everyone to believe all is well concerning DD (who is 9) but i know better.

My question? While i am an extreme advocate of telling the truth in appropriate ways, how much do i tell her now? I told her about the adultery (in an age appropriate way) quite some time ago but as a veey mature and smart 9 yr old, i get the feeling she will want to know more soon.

What should I do?

Tell her the truth. I have a 8 year old daughter and he knows the truth of her moms adultery. Dr Harley advocates telling the truth.
Make it a learning experience so that when our kids are older they will hate adultery
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