I've read the post here regarding Dr. Harley's opinion on exposure. I see the logic in his belief to immediately expose an affair once you have proof.

I have proof....

...but I'm terified to expose my wife's affair.

I discovered my wife's affair about two weeks ago. I noticed that she had become very secretive with her online activities (closing the laptop when I entered the room; logging off of sites that she used to leave open like Facebook and email; changing passwords; closely guarding her cell phone). She also drastically changed her appearance by a sudden renewed interest in getting in shape and primping herself (drastic hairstyle change, nails, pedicures) when she for so long expressed no interest in those things.

I managed to get a hold of her phone and found messages between her and an old "friend" from high school. She had rekindled a relationship with him on Facebook which ballooned into a full blown emotional affair.

The discovery came at the worst possible time. She was on her way to visit her mom two states away....in the same town that HE lives in.

When I confronted her about it, she gave the textbook "just a friend" denial. She eventually gave me a half hearted admission that she agreed that the relationship was inappropriate and said she would not go see him. She only said that to shut me up.

She went there. She was with him. Not sexually, but emotionally. I know this for a fact. Our phones have GPS on them. I saw where she was. Our phone records show feverish contact and long conversations between the two. They stopped the night she was with him.

But the contact did not stop. She still has him as a friend on Facebook. That is where they do all of their talking now. She's even gone as far as to create a secondary Facebook account that she thinks I don't know about where he is her only friend.

Every spare second that she can, she sneaks away and logs into that Facebook account to see if he is online or if he left her a message. They still message one another daily.

How do I know all of this? She left it logged in and I read all the messages between them. I know all the dirty details that she thinks I do not. I kept a copy.

I've tried twice to talk to her about it without telling her exactly what I know. Both times, I feel like I've made massive Love Bank withdrawals. She denies the affair and gets mad at me.

Understand, I know that I have not fulfilled her needs and that my actions played a major role in leading her astray. We're both in counseling. I've changed my heart, my attitude, and my actions. I've known for a long time that we had problems. I've not liked the person that I had become for quite some time. I'm committed to changing. I'm committed to never taking her for granted again. I read the Marriage Builders site religiously and follow the advice contained therein. I've spent every second of the past two weeks trying to fill her Love Bank. My efforts are not having the desired impact because HE is still in the equation. I fear that while I am committed to rebuilding our love, she is not.

We've been married for almost 13 years. We have 5 children.

For as much as this hurts me, I've already forgiven her indiscretion. What I can't get over is the dishonesty. If we're going to move forward and repair our marriage, I have to be able to trust her. Her complete unwillingness to admit the affair and her continued contact with him prohibit me from being able to trust her.

What I need in order to heal is for her to cease all contact with him and to be open with me about what happened. I ALREADY KNOW WHAT HAPPENED because of what I read in their messages to one another. Again, she doesn't know that I know and won't come clean.

I love my wife with all my heart. I've never been unfaithful and have no desire to so ever. I want her back. I want to fulfill her needs. I want her to trust in me to be able to support her.

I'm just very confused as to how I can do that with him still in the picture. It would seem that, according to advice on this site, I should expose her affair. Tell her exactly what I know.

I'm afraid to do that. I don't want to push her farther away. I also don't want to inflict this pain on our children. I don't want them to suffer what I am suffering by knowing that their mother is in love with another man.

My counselor told me that I might want to consider letting her know exactly what I know as well. She said that part of the allure of the affair is the forbidden secret nature of the whole thing.

Again, I do see the logic of that advice. I'm just scared and confused to do it.

It's like she is two different persons. To my face, she assures me that she wants to fix our marriage and that she loves me and wants no one else. She assures me that she is dedicated to counseling and seeing this through. Behind my back though, she is in constant contact with him (which she denies). I've seen messages she sent him after our counseling sessions or after I confronted her about her relationship with him. She shows great anger towards me when I confront her and takes a mocking tone in regards to our reconciliation when she messages him.

I also see that she is the one who makes all the effort with HIM. She is the one who desperately initiates contact with him. He is actually a bit standoffish and distant with her. He gives her lame excuses for why he hasn't contacted her which she believes. From the outside looking in, it would seem to me that she is his Other Woman. Nevertheless, she still desperately tries to keep their affair afloat.

I'm hurt, scared, and confused.

Any help?

So, your choice is to live in terror?
Surrender to your fears?
Have a nervous breakdown because you can't make a move?

Many many many, millions, of wives have unmet/unfilled needs, yet NEVER have an affair.
Explain that !




Did the 5 kids fail to meet their mother's needs?
Huh?
Is that why your wife CHEATED on her FAMILY?
Is it the kid's fault too? For not "meeting Mom's needs"?

I did almost have a nervous breakdown, Pepper. I will admit that.

I'm just confused as to what extent this exposure should entail.

Her mother (whom I already talked to when I first found out and who does not believe her daughter would do such a thing)? Our children? I've already told my mother and brother. Do I contact HIM and his relatives?

I think she would see this as me trying to control her, which was one of our main problems. I WAS a controlling a-hole. I'm trying not to be.

Answer this:
How does a busy Mom of 5 have time to have an affair?

Does she read fewer bedtime stories and shorten bedtime prayers so she can jump on the phone to text sex messages to her OM?

Does the busy Mom give fewer/shorter hugs to her children because her mind is preoccupied with OM?

Does the Mom/adulterer teach her kids that it is OK to lie and cheat if they aren't getting certain needs met?

How does the Mom of 5 kiss her children with the same lips that have touched OM?

Does the Mom/adulterer tell her kids "Wait, Mommy is busy on the phone." when she is on the phone with OM, but is interrupted by one of her 5 darling kids with a pressing child problem?

And YOU ARE AFRAID TO TAKE ACTION ?

Seriously?

Who will protect your kids?
Certainly not OM.
Certainly not your WW right now.

Be a man.
Be a strong father.
Protect and fight for your family.

"I'm afraid" is not a very impressive excuse for a father of 5.

EV
REE
ONE

Everyone.
All at once.

That's a problem/issue EASILY APPROACHED in RECOVERY.

During the affair .... you must be proactive or the adultery will KILL any hope for your marriage.

Target numero uno .... OM's wife/girlfriend.

That is pretty typical. It's a scary thing to do.

Having your wife continue an affair for years on end is also scary.

Divorce is also pretty scary.

A miserable marriage is also pretty scary.

If you use your logic and reason, you can take rational steps to bring yourself to a point where your emotions are happiness instead of fear. You can make and follow a plan regardless of what your feelings say.

The first step in that plan is to expose the adultery.

Read my carrot/stick link.

Put a damn GPS (secretly) on her car.
Today!
Find a way to track her phone/text computer messages.
Knowledge is power.
Weakness will not work.

I thought the problem was that you were scared.

Operation Investigate !!!

I am scared. Fear has never stopped me before though. You'd be shocked if you know what my profession is.

I will expose the affair. Now.

Ok I wrote this 6 years ago myself. First, the problems in a M NEVER justify infidelity. Its not your fault!
Secondly if you dont kill the A your doomed. You cant fill her ENs as long as he is in the picture. 3 dont work. And if she can run to him and have part of her ENs met and have you meet the other ENs its all good for her.(cake eater)
Kill the A. Grab your set, put on the flack jacket and war paint and KILL THE A!
Fear is getting the best of you. If you dont overcome that fear you are sure to lose this war.

Start with the significant other of OM.
His family.
Your entire family.
Your circle of friends.
Your church/minister.

Read carrot/stick to prepare yourself for WW's venom.

Her venom is a GOOD response.
If exposure is effective, OM may decide that a MW with a warrior husband and FIVE KIDS is not worth the effort.

Chances are excellent he will DUMP her when the heat is high and he's no longer having any fun.

Hang in there ...

OK, so you're a cop.

Yes, you need to tell the kids, both sets of your parents, siblings and any other family or friends that could influence your W to end the A.

As for OM, is he married? And you said you have access to his FB page?

Many BHs are terrified of upsetting their WWs. We have a saying here, Your marriage can survive her anger but it won't survive an affair.

Just remember this, if she gets upset, that's a GOOD thing ~ it means you are busting up the fantasy of the A. You want her to be upset over exposure. They all get upset and they all get over it once they defog...

I think you will find that HAVING A PLAN really lessens the fear issue.

ShatteredHope,

Your WW lied to you when she told you she would not go see him...

Why in the world do you believe her that she did not have sex with him when she went to go see him?

If she just wanted to talk she could do THAT on the phone.

Why do you think she was so desperate to see him in person?

What do you think they could do in person that they couldn't do over the phone or on facebook, play checkers???

OM don't hang around unless there is a payoff, and it's not talking on the phone or facebook.

I heard nothing was going on, then a kiss, then a one night, then an affair that had gone on for years.

Expect to learn more as this unfolds and realize that you CAN save your marriage by listening to the good people here and following Dr.Harley's plan.

Welcome to MB!!!

Jim

Jim, I have seen all of their interactions on Facebook. They vividly discussed what happened the night she was with him. She was upset because they did not get physical. He refused her and said he wasn't ready.

This is a FANTASTIC opportunity.

Call OM or go see him in person.

Get IN HIS FACE and tell him to "cease and desist" any/all activity with your wife.
Make no actual threats, but look serious and determined.

"You WILL leave MY wife alone. Right? RIGHT? You will go away and never return. Right? RIGHT?"

Most OM are cowards.

Dr Harley would call you an ENABLER. The problem with your complacent approach is that it reflects a LACK OF CARING. You clearly don't care enough to stand up for your marriage and are headed towards a divorce as the affair becomes more and more entrenched every day. With your help. So it is silly to say that you fear that exposure will push them together when it is YOUR ENABLING THAT IS DOING THAT VERY THING.

Unless you get up and do something to save your marriage, this is hopeless. Sorry you have chosen to throw away your marriage for no good reason other than your misplaced "fears."

Dr Harley speaks to another enabler on the radio - a guy like you who didn't expose. His wife is now moving out to be with her OM click here


You really don't have the luxury of catering to your fears in this situation. Its ok for you to wreck your own life through complacence and laziness, but you have 5 children who need you. YOU ARE ALL THEY HAVE RIGHT NOW. They need someone to stand up for their family.

Pep,

Do the OMs just really slink away after exposure? they don't lurk? My W's OM is not married, no kids....so I still fear he has 'nothing to lose' if he wanted to start up contact again, pursue W. Does exposing to his employer (which got him canned) and his mom really drive OPs away for good?

Moving on from the A, but just wondering...thanks.

OM are lazy. Usually. And cowardly too.

And, they want easy trouble-free access to the WW without consequences or bother.

Make the affair with YOUR WIFE so-not-worth-the-amount-of-trouble.

YOU give him something to lose.

Pepperband is right, most just slink away after you cause trouble for them because they are looking for some easy nookie. They don't want the trouble.

Okay, that pretty much says he's married. His wife is your No. 1 exposure target.

Fear is ok, inaction is not. Be prepared for her anger--know she will be angry, and it will not catch you off guard or stab you as deep as you're afraid. She WILL be angry. She will be angry you are attacking her little fantasy life, where she can have a family AND a boyfriend without consequences.

As others have said...your marriage can survive her anger. It cannot survive her affair.

My WW was livid... I mean, LIVID, and spewing all kinds of babble about how "she could never forgive me for telling her family" and blah blah blah blah... fog babble. Projections. It was like she was a crack addict whose pipe was taken away. You know what? She forgave me. Maybe the "fog" isn't all gone, maybe she's still "hurt" I exposed to the world... but she woke up, pulled her head out of her backside, OM crawled back into the sewer, and I have my wife back.

Exposure has worked for many BHs here. Do not let the fear run your life. What's worse--living in the house with your 5 kids and a wife who is lying to you and secretly banging another man on the side...potentially exposing you to STDs? Or watching your wife get angry that you're finally standing up for your manhood and kicking this other SOB piece of trash boyfriend out of your family's life?

It's time to be a man with your family, the same way you're a man at your day job.

Excellent post!

It is very inappropriate to pre-emptively forgive her for nothing. What is there to forgive her FOR? Handing out unconditional forgiveness hurts your marriage and encourages abuse and neglect. Nor should you trust her. It was too much trust that led to the affair in the first place. Rather than seeking trust, I would demand she end her affair and protect your marriage from an affair.

Melody, let me tell you that I appreciate all of this tough love dearly. I have just unleashed a tsunami of exposure. I messaged everyone I could find on Facebook with any association to HIM. I informed her mother. I messaged HIM with a warning to back off. I confronted her.

She was angry and embarassed and didn't say much.

But from what I'm reading here, that is a good reaction.

Time will tell.

Great job!! Now, is he married? If so, did you call his wife?

Everyone of your children should be told BY YOU so they understand the source of the tension in their home.

Dr. Harley on telling the children:

here



here

here

I guess exposure causes the trouble...creates the 'crazy husband' that scares off the OM, let alone the public embarrassment to family/friends, the effect on the innocent children involved, the prospects of a divorce battle, etc.

This is what scares off OM:

I would follow up that fb message to the OM with a phone call or face to face confrontation if there is ANY further contact.

One other reaction you may get. For me exposing made my WW wake up from her little EA fantasy. She suddenly realized that her actions were fixing to send her down a road she didn't want to travel down and snapped her from the fog of her ENs being met elsewhere. This isn't typical but it is possible. Now after 3 months guilt and remorse is overcoming her and she grieves. But she is now also doing the leg work that she never has done before. I communicated my expectations and resolved to have them met or I would no longer continue in our M. (MY Boundaries) All while dishing out the carrot of Plan A. But I never faltered that EPs and a ful-filling M was my expectations. I told her daily.

Also as far as the OM went. They quickly learned I could be a huge stick in the rear side. I reamed them both personally and professionally. This last one said he was physically Ill anticipating my revenge and hoping I wouldn't expose to his BW and there employer. I did and he ran like the dog he is. I ran after him with a leash. The OM before this one moved and erased his footprints on the internet (Junior Golf Pro) dropped all his tournaments and still hides to this day! He tried to get restraining orders on me but couldn't because I was using the internet and his local sphere to tell the truth about it so it was totally legal. I only confronted him face to face one time. The rest was just sweet revenge within my legal rights. LMAO he didn't play the Augusta National because of me. He was hiding from the truth.
Just as you do on your Job be relentless and have no fear!

YeeeeHawwwwwwwwwww












Yes, it is.
And, do NOT {yet} tell your WW about this site.
You still need some work on your plans.
Once she willingly and openly enters RECOVERY, she can be VERY welcome posting here.



It's going to be OK.
You 'da man !

You guys have been a great help "pushing me through the door".

She already deleted him as a Facebook contact.

Will any of your or your W's family members confront your W and ask her to end her A?

Once you have completed the exposure (OMW? OM parents? Kids?) Then you let your WW know that everyone knows about the affair and it has no future.

You are doing great, you just want to make sure you do the whole thing at once, don't leave any loose ends

Susie, when I confronted her with what I know I also told her "Everyone knows".

She was NOT happy. Now she doesn't want to have contact with anyone who she thinks will confront her about it.

She wants me to cancel plans I had for us on Mother's Day.

I don't know if I'll ever forgive myself for being such a weenie and waiting so long to expose (on 3/9/11)...once done, it really forced the hand of people to either be for marriage/family or not.

And I never would have guessed the results:

*OM fired from jobsite within 2 hours of employer receiving exposure letter
*angry voicemail from OM to my W (used work number) about getting fired; threatened to sue me (us) for defamation of character
*OM's mother calling me after receiving exposure letter; ripped my W, defended her son, angry over A, sad for our children
*my W went ballistic for a weekend...and then calmed down and decided she does want to be M and have a family after all.

No evidence of contact since then...seem to be in recovery now.

I wish I hadn't waited those extra months -- I think the fog is lifting, but probably taking a bit longer due to my delay. At least i know going forward, if the M works or not, everyone will know WHY the M failed, and who'll have to answer for it...

Way to fight for your marriage, Shattered. It took me weeks of waffling and kicking my feet before I got the guts to finish my partial-exposure. Waiting, hoping, and being weak will only lead to more hurt, more trouble, more resentment, and a longer recovery time... if recovery is even possible by then.

The ride has started, but you've got support here, and you're on the right track.



Stay strong buddy. Down the road, your kids will thank you for fighting for Mom. You will thank yourself for turning into a stronger, healthier person... and your WW might even thank you for dragging her back from the brink of a ruined life.

Mel,

LMAO....LOVE the vid!!!(Hell's coming with me)

SH, just read your posts today, GREAT JOB!! you should be VERY proud!

SH, will her mother speak to her? Your wife needs to hear from her family members. In order to help you and your kids, they should be using their influence to persuade her to end her affair. If some family member won't talk to your wife, then be sure and tell her you have told them about the affair.

Another very important exposure is to your pastor if you have a church. But the MOST IMPACTFUL EXPOSURE will be to the OM's wife and/or parents. That should be done today.

You are doing GREAT and I want to applaud you for standing up for your marriage and your children! We are all afraid, SH. What matters is what we DO with that fear. The difference between those who make it and those who don't is usually the ability to act DESPITE that fear!

You did a brave thing today.

I'm happy I registered and posted today. I really needed SOMEONE to support me and validate what I was feeling.

I'm not big into succumbing to fear. Don't get me wrong, I get scared all the time. It's just not in my nature to cower to the fear and be weak.

This whole situation has taken away a lot of my sense of self.

But no more. I AM a warrior. I will not be weak.

"I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain."

Ask THEM to contact her. And be sure and tell your children. ALONE. They need to be asking their mother why she would throw away their family for ..........nothing! That will wake her up for sure.


Whatever.

After you run off this loser and kill her affair, I would move onto the next step. Most marriages NEVER recover from affairs because they have no plan of recovery. As a result, their marriage limps along in a crippled state of the pre-affair marriage. So your next steps are very critical unless you want to settle for a nightmare of a marriage.

Set her down in the next couple of days and let her know that you will give her an opportunity to EARN YOUR FORGIVENESS. Tell her you will not settle for a loveless marriage and what she has done has caused enormous damage. You will give her a chance to redeem herself.

In order for the marriage to recover, certain things have to happen. This is what it will take to keep you interested:

1. eliminate the conditions that led to the affair, ie: delete facebook, etc

2. complete transparency - cell phone passwords, etc

3. no more opposite sex friendships - no nights apart

4. complete honesty about her affair � passing a polygraph

5. commit to a program of recovery that restores the romantic love in your marriage

Tell her "this is what it will take to keep me in this marriage." Whether your marriage ends up with success or failure will depend almost entirely on her willingness and ability to make radical changes. Her lifestyle must become absolutely transparent, holding nothing back. She is in no position to negotiate when it comes to extraordinary precautions, because those precautions are designed to prevent another affair and help you feel safe.

She must also meet your emotional needs in a way that until now he has failed. Unless she makes a 180 degree turn in his approach to what it means to be a wife, your marriage won't recover, it will be a crippled version of your pre-affair marriage.

AMEN! Like Bob Pure once said, "exposure changed me from a SERF into a KNIGHT." He ran off the OM and saved his marriage, btw. He felt just like you, paralyzed by fear. But he got up and acted in defense of his marriage and his family DESPITE his fears. That is how a warrior acts, and that is what you did today, Sir!

She was NOT happy. Now she doesn't want to have contact with anyone who she thinks will confront her about it.

She wants me to cancel plans I had for us on Mother's Day


You ruined her fantasy! It's just no fun anymore....and now it's downright embarrassing...

SW--

Amen to that...

After exposure, my daughter said I did the right thing in standing up for our family, adn that 20 years from now, they (my kids) will remember what i did to keep the family together..

Not soon after that, my W actually thanked ME for exposing the A -- getting OM fired from job and putting an end to it because she couldn't on her own...

I would've never believed this if I hadn't heard it myself. thanks.

Great job, Shattered!

This is what they all do.

But this is part of the reason why you don't want to save any of your exposure "just in case" for later. That usually doesn't work out too well. You want to get it all done now while she is angry. It is better to do overkill rather than under, KWIM?

So just to make sure, have you gotten in touch with OMW? OM parents? Will you be telling your kids later today?

Sorry if you answered this, I didn't see it but I am also trying to do two things at once...

He has a very distinct last name. I messaged everyone I could find on Facebook with that last name that is associated with him.

He lives two states away and I don't know much about him other than what I've found through my own snooping.

My kids are in school and I work nights. I haven't told them yet.

Suggested response:

"You are the woman I love.
You are the mother our children love.
We have much to celebrate.
As far as the children and I are concerned, the M-Day plans are still on."

Of course she may refuse.

Do the activity without her if she refuses.

Can you call his house and see if a woman answers? Have you tried looking up his martial status on any of the people finders like intelius or peoplefinder? If you can get her name, you could look her up on facebook.

He has a cell phone. I have that number. I think he is separated from his spouse. I saw mention of some kind of custody fight he is in in some of their messages.

Just because he writes something to your wife does not make it true.

A "separation/custody battle" may be big news to his wife.

Infidels lie to each other all the time.

"Separated" means married. This is how married people attract adultery partners. See if you can find a landline phone # on whitepages.com. Also go plug his name into intelius.com and peoplefinder.com to see if a wife comes up.

My thoughts exactly. He was definitely not forthcoming with my wife. I had the distinct impression that everything he said to her was "BS". I also strongly felt that she was his other woman.

This may not be true, OM have a tendency to lie about this. You could check that state's judicial branch website to see if you can do a case lookup.

But I would let her know even if they are separating. You need to find her home number...

I guess there wouldn't be a case filed if they were separating so ignore that last post. See, I shouldn't be trying to post when I am working, LOL.

Track down the OMW, this would be priority # 1 if I were you right now...

Shattered, You just won a major battle on this war when exposure is all done. You just attacked Pearl Harbor so to speak.
But the war is just beginning so plan the war. The plans is all here from Dr H. If you can do it get some counselling from the Harley's for you and your WW.
I know you dont want to go back to where you were in your M. Most Affairs are from a lack of emotional needs not being met. Make sure you never fail that goal again and make sure she is accountable with your ENs.
Recovery is a long hard road but achievable. I have seen the proof. But recovery requires "raising the bar" in your M. Or you will just go back to the same old M and waiting on this to happen again. It did with me. I let it go back without the resolve to have expectations from my WW and myself.
I use this site daily to remind myself that I have to keep that Bar raised.

Keep up the pressure man!

Well, now she is crying in bed. Not really talking.

She has succumbed to the guilt she is feeling. Said she would never kill herself but she feels like dieing and can never forgive herself for what she did to me. Says she doesn't see how I can ever forgive her and doesn't expect me to. Says she is shamed and embarrassed.

How do I proceed???

Lay out the plan I outlined above. I will post it again. But tell her when your kids get home you are going to tell them the truth about the affair. That will help you forgive her. [this will help your whole family] Ask her to send loserboy a no contact letter that is written together and approved by you. [I will post a sample in the next post] Here is my post again:

Set her down in the next couple of days and let her know that you will give her an opportunity to EARN YOUR FORGIVENESS. Tell her you will not settle for a loveless marriage and what she has done has caused enormous damage. You will give her a chance to redeem herself.

In order for the marriage to recover, certain things have to happen. This is what it will take to keep you interested:

1. eliminate the conditions that led to the affair, ie: delete facebook, etc

2. complete transparency - cell phone passwords, etc

3. no more opposite sex friendships - no nights apart

4. complete honesty about her affair � passing a polygraph

5. commit to a program of recovery that restores the romantic love in your marriage

Tell her "this is what it will take to keep me in this marriage." Whether your marriage ends up with success or failure will depend almost entirely on her willingness and ability to make radical changes. Her lifestyle must become absolutely transparent, holding nothing back. She is in no position to negotiate when it comes to extraordinary precautions, because those precautions are designed to prevent another affair and help you feel safe.

She must also meet your emotional needs in a way that until now he has failed. Unless she makes a 180 degree turn in his approach to what it means to be a wife, your marriage won't recover, it will be a crippled version of your pre-affair marriage.

here


[from SAA, pg 58]

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, XXXXX

You continue to show kindness and an ear , listen and listen again , she must feel safe talking to you. She is sorry for herself and while not admitting it to you may be longing for the OM.

At the same time do not drop your guard , if your WW and the OM make contact any recovery is lost. Track that mans family down, find his parents and wife , you must ensure he is out of the picture completely.

ditto..

Something like this:

Pepper, that's almost exactly what I said verbatim.

She is expressing extreme shame, remorse, and embarrassment.

She says she doesn't think she's worthy of my love or forgiveness.

She's expressed that she doesn't love or forgive herself and never will.

She thinks that everyone I exposed this to is now in judgement of her and will never treat her the same.

She does indeed feel that I "took control" away from her.

She said that she was in the process of ending it and that had I just told her everything I knew without the exposure, she would have immediately ended it.

I can't help but feel like I'm going to somehow be painted as a bad guy here.

On a related note, HE responded to my message with threats of forwarding all correspondence he has ever received from her to all of my family and all of her family.

Great for you she is acting this way VS anger. Nice! I dont usually log on in the PM so to not give up UA time with DW. But I seen your post and had too.
Pearl harbor is burning and disabled now track down those few escaping ships and torpedo them. OMW,OM parents ETC. Critical you finish up soon.
Vital that you do what Melody said and be kind and caring. Hard to do when po'ed I know.
Not a bad days work for you. It seems your well on your way to killing this A. But as everyone else has said. Keep your eyes and ears open. But also dont take your eyes off the prize ( a recovered fulfilling marriage) This will be hard work and resentment is sure to peak in at you from time to time. Vent here and not on her.
Also its hard to do everything at once. Take little bites its the only way you can eat an elephant.

All of this is pretty typical words from a WW. Blow it off. You cant be painted as the bad guy.
I would have told OM to feel free it would save me the trouble!

SH, she would not have ended her affair on her own. That much is true. And yes, you should have taken control away from her when she is doing something destructive. It is like a drunk driver who wants to drive. The responsible thing to do it take away her keys.

I am getting concerned that you are not finishing up your exposures which is going to enable to affair to continue. The affair is much more likely to continue if you don't expose to the OM's wife and to your children. PLEASE get ahold of the OM's wife NOW before he gets to her first and spins the story. Don't stop while you have the affair on the ropes or you will lose. They will get back up.

She can forgive herself if she earns it. There is not much to respect when a person behaves as badly as she does. And hopefully she won't "love" herself, that would be narcissism. Waywards are selfish and self centered enough.


Exactly. People can judge that adultery is wrong. If they can't they are messed up. Some might not treat her the same. That is a consequence of adultery. It is a shameful act.


This is bullcrap. It is the drunk driver who claims he was going to quit on his own. The key thing is that she DIDN'T quit on her own despite having numerous chances.


Do you worry that you will painted as the bad guy when you take the car keys away from a falling down drunk? That is all that is happening here. You interfered with the addicts fix. So of course you are the bad guy.


Get ahold of his wife TODAY.

I heard something similar (process of ending it). And I heard it more than once. And it was lie every time.
Of course you are the bad guy - you ruined her affair!


Well - isn't it nice! OM who volunteers to complete exposure and by that ensures the destruction of the affair! If he does that (which I highly doubt), it will be actually good thing.

But I think he hopes to scare you away from exposing to his wife. Do NOT answer to his threats in any way, find his wife and speak to her personally.

You are doing great until now but not exposing OMW is huge mistake. Hurry.

Well, I have no way of knowing if he has a wife. He lives two states away where I know nobody. My gut tells me he has a "baby momma", not a wife. Either way, I've contacted everyone who I could find a family relation to him with my exposure letter. That's going to have to be good enough.

Google, google and search. Call back to his employer and ask what they know. Take a ad out in the local paper. But this must be done.

Hire a PI where OM lives.
Wife?
Criminal record?
etc ....

You can "buy peace of mind" this way.

Hello SH,

You have done a great job with exposure so far but you must NOT stop until you find the OM wife or significant other.

He WILL spin a story to her if you don't do it quickly and she is VITAL to you for information and watching the OM's actions.

A great website for doing this is www.peoplelookup.com

It is free and will show you the cities he has lived in and possible relatives and girlfriends he has lived with.

My daughter used it to bust a friend of hers married boyfriend.

Give it a try and DO NOT STOP until you find her.

Good luck!!!

God bless.

Jim

He owns a bar. I've searched his background on several of the different investigative sites. Even paid. All list him as single.

On to the next hurdle: This would be D-day +1, right? Here's the atmosphere.

She's walking around here and it appears she is very angry. She really doesn't want to talk to me. She won't look at me very much either.

She says she's not mad at me. She's mad at herself. She says she still feels the same as I described yesterday (shame, embarrassed, feeling as if she deserves to die).

Part of me wants to give her space to fix herself. That is exactly what my counselor told me to do the last two sessions (i.e. we can't fix our marriage if we don't fix ourselves first).

But the other part of me wants to heed Plan A and what I believe you all are telling me to do: Don't back down and assert my feelings.

So, this morning as she is getting ready to take our youngest to school I approach her and tell her we need to discuss the situation and what we need to accomplish to move forward with our recovery. I agreed that she needs to fix her internal problems but added that she has much to do to start earning back love and trust.

I started with telling her that we need to eliminate the conditions that caused the problem to begin with. I tell her that we need complete transparency (i.e. no more sneaking around on Facebook, setting extra security precautions on our various accounts to tell us when one another have logged into each others accounts, changing passwords).

She reacted with acquiescence. She said "You want my passwords, fine here are my passwords." She then gave me her email and Facebook passwords. She added that she deleted her secondary account that she had created. Then says "You want me to delete my Facebook account? I will. I don't care. I don't have anything to hide. I don't want to talk to anyone anymore anyway."

At this point, I'm starting to get a little angry and am just holding my tongue. I don't want to commit any Love Busters so I just hold my tongue and leave the room. What angered me was the way in which she said everything. It all felt very condenscending. She said that it wasn't her intention and repeated that her anger is with herself.

I just don't trust her to be true about her feelings yet. I don't even think she understands her feelings.

So my question is this: When do I introduce her to what I've learned from this and other sites? When, if ever, do I point her in the direction of a resource that will explain "The Fog" to her?

I don't have faith that she can sort this out on her own.

Her solution was to go to her doctor today and get a prescription to zonk her out so that she will stop feeling like she wants to die.

I don't know that that is unwise, but I'm certain she will never come to understand "The Fog" and all this other stuff we're going through without a nudge in the right direction.

What do I do next?

SH, you don't need to explain the fog to her. She will realize that in due time on her own. You only need to lay out your conditions to her. Tell her what it will take to earn your forgiveness. Lay out the plan for recovery and LEAD YOUR MARRIAGE into recovery.

TAKE her up on deleting the facebook page. Tell her you appreciate the offer and would like to take her up on that. Tell her that is what it will take to make you feel safe and ask her to delete it now.


Don't waste time on some fruitless pursuit to fix her. That is a distraction. She doesn't need to fix anything other than your marriage so that should be the main focus. You don't have to "fix yourself" in order to fix your marriage.

Just calmly and politely lay out your plan for recovery. Be a broken record: "here is what it will take..." Right now she is the falling down drunk who just had her booze taken from her. She is angry and sullen. She will go up and down for the next few days. What you have to do is make sure she doesn't resume contact with the OM.

Do you have the book, Surviving an Affair? I would get that book along with the workbook, Five Steps to Romantic Love and read them. That will give you a plan for recovery. Show her those books.

Have you told your children yet?

Again I appreciate all the advice. I really do.

I'm thinking of this from my perspective. I almost had several nervous breakdowns during this whole process. When I was finally able to pull myself together, I didn't do it alone. Of course I had support from my family. But I also found great comfort in finding understanding of what I was going through on sites like this one.

I believe that I'm the "rational, sane" spouse at this point and that she is not herself. I understand "The Fog" and know that is exactly what she is going through.

She doesn't. Not. One. Bit.

Right! Just like a falling down drunk doesn't understand that he is fogged out. He is too drunk to realize it! Your wife is the equivalent of a falling down drunk. She is addicted to the OM and is high on her affair. So, don't waste your time trying to convince her she is foggy. You can't REASON with a drunk. All you can do is tell her "this is what it will take..." Give her your conditions and explain they are not negotiable.

I am not convinced her affair is over, though.

Here's the thing.
Recovery will happen in the presence of all sorts of feelings. Understood, or not.
It's recovery actions by which we measure recovery progress.
You can/should care about her feelings.
But know this ~~~> next mood change in 60 minutes.
Continue to keep your "trap" closed. Particularly do not render any opinion about her feelings. They belong to her.


A couple of weeks at the soonest. That's my opinion.


She will go through her roller coaster of feelings.
The dynamics of her fall into her A will be more easily understood BY HER once she has stopped all OM contact for a minimum 2 weeks.


What RX?
If the MD gave her anti depressants, they do not "zonk".


Later ... And the BEST way to help her understand is to buy SAA (see bookstore) and read it together.
But .... not yet. She is too raw.


Keep a roll of duct tape handy for your mouth.
Dig DEEP and find empathy when your wife least deserves it.
She is hurting.
She needs a hero.
Do you know of any available heroes?
Stop trying to "fix" her.
Start offering a strong (silent) shoulder to cry on.
Give her non-sexual hugs.
Offer her "time out" from the kids to go have a bubble bath. (She will have a good cry)


The MOST important thing right now?
NO CONTACT WITH OM

Your wife will get better if there is NC.
She is in withdrawal.

I know money is tight everywhere and money is at a premium for many people. But please consider getting the best there is out there to help you and your WW. The meager price you pay for quality far overrides the cost. And its much cheaper than a divorce. Coaching Center.
Tell her over and over what your conditions are. IE the broken record. Do it with heart felt determination.
She wont understand or trust her feelings for a bit. Be patient.

Then, show empathy.
You can't fix this with a hammer.
Put the hammer down.
Administer hugs.

Still snoop. Use tools to do so.
Don't think about fixing her internal problems. Every one has them. No one is fixed. We are all a work in progress.
One great thing about MB is it is behavioral. You act and your feelings follow.

All humans would feel like they were having a nervous breakdown being faced with their mate's betrayel. That is being a human. It is a horrible, sucky experience but must be a useful coping stage.

Pace yourself and try to stay the course.

Well, she just got home from the doctor and I asked her how it went. She didn't want to tell me. She didn't want to tell me what they prescribed and got mad that I asked. It was a simple conversational question which she interpretted as me being controlling.

When I sensed she was angry at my question, I backed off and went to a different room.

She followed and had an angry, tearful outburst. She says that she feels like nothing she ever does is going to be enough to earn my trust back. That I will always question her every move. That I will never forgive her.

I tried repeatedly to reassure her that I know we are in crisis and that there is hope for reconciliation. I told her that we both have to have faith and work at rebuilding trust in one another (i.e. My trust in her fidelity and her trust in my capacity to forgive her). REPEATEDLY.

Her fog is very thick. She cried hysterically, said she is about to die inside. She again expressed extreme anger at the Exposure that "I inflicted on her". She said that she will NEVER be convinced that exposure was the right tool. She questioned intently as to who provided me with the advice for such an extreme exposure.

I told her that I offer no apologies. That the shame and embarrassment are the results of her own actions, not the exposure. I told her that she can't have an affair without consequence.

She latched onto that and said that I just want her to suffer like I've been suffering. That I only did it to hurt her.

I repeatedly tried to assure her that was not the case. That this was a step in our recovery and that we would be stronger and happier for this.

My words fell on deaf ears.

She left to get our youngest from school, bawling.



This is extremely difficult. I am questioning the wisdom in my decision to use this technique. My wife suffers from PTSD from past trauma. Does that have an impact on this process?

Did you mention Marriage Builders? It's a little early to give up this site as a resource.

Hence, the DUCT TAPE !

Shut up !

Pepper, should I just back off now?

Do not let her convince or cajole you to get off this site, she has zip say in this and the only item she should be working on is saving your marriage. Buy her "surviving an affair" it is a good start for her to learn about marriage.

Go back & read my previous responses.
Tell me what you think I meant.

I'm not sure, Pepper. I've been trying to follow your advice. I've been relying heavily on the Carrot & Stick. I just don't know how to proceed.

I don't want to push her further away.

Your WW's reaction is par for the course they all hate exposure they make claims they were about to end it ...NOT. Ignore her anger and crying while outwardly showing empathy, a shoulder for her to cry on and a same place to be always remember she did not and is not considering your feelings in this. All she worries about is herself if she was so concerned she would not be comitting adultry.

Follow the process , stay firm and resolute, the battle is still on, there is a long way to go.

Don't expect dramatic changes at this moment, patience patience

Remember this?

You cannot control HER feelings.
Stop trying.

You can show empathy that she is IN PAIN without projecting any weakness in your position that her affair must end.

You will become the more attractive choice for her by administration of the carrot.
Empathy for her feelings.
A shoulder for her to cry on.
Offering her domestic support while she gets herself straightened out.
Offering her hope for forgiveness.

NONE of this is accomplished by "getting her to understand" herself.

This is all about YOU becoming a warrior who fights the bad guy (OM) and does not tell her that her feelings are wrong.

I realize that is is probably not one of your areas of expertise, so please listen.

You will lose the carrot if you try and cram "understanding" down her throat at this time. It simply will not work.

Are you a family that has attended a church?

Most importantly ... you never have an opinion about the "rightness" or the "wrongness" of her feelings.

When in doubt, ask for or offer a hug.

Non verbal Plan A carrot will give you the most bang for your buck.

I still have not been able to lay out the plan of action melody suggested. I only got two of the 6 things she suggested out before she shuts down. I don't want her to feel like I'm berating her. I'm trying to be firm and consistent with my message. I just haven't been able to get it all out yet.

I ordered "His Needs Her Needs" and "Surviving an Affair".

I don't think she'll read them

Be affectionate and loving. Listen. Do not lecture. Do not try to educate her. If she says she doesn't see how something is possible, don't try to tell her now how it's possible.

She will.
Later.

Rome was not built in a ...............

Take a breather.
What sort of physical activity can you do today?
Can you take the older kids to a park and play ball?

PTSD is of no relevance.
Remember the ANGRY WW we talked about. She's showed up. No more no less. Ignore it! Babbble.
You question your decision? Let me assure you with no doubts in your mind that what you did was the right thing to do. Case by case and examples prove sweeping it under the rug is the first MAJOR mistake. No consequences for actions is a sure way to enable a WS.
Also as you have been told this. Most M dont survive an A. Many WS relapse into another A. BECAUSE the right steps were never taken to eliminate the conditions of the A and there was no work on the M to restore romantic love. Post A M with no plan typically limp along and never recover. Is that what you want? Or do you want an A proof ,loving marriage and a wife that is your partner in everything you do?
Dont doubt what you did my man. You stood up for your family instead of watching a WW facilitate back and forth in her feelings and actions. You were in for a living he11 in that direction. You forced change and decision instead of being stuck in limbo land.

I know personally a WS who raged for a couple of days after exposure/NC. I was shocked at his reaction but what everyone says here is true, you have to give it some time. Your wife is experience a true withdrawal.

Can you encourage her to get on those ADs? That will help her.

Just keep reiterating that you have hope for your M and when she is ready, be prepared to lead this recovery using the plan ML gave you.

onemoretime, I want to have a loving marriage where my wife is my partner in everything we do. I want for her to feel like my equal and vice versa. I don't want to control her or for her to feel controlled. I want my wife to know that I love her and appreciate her. I want her to trust in me to meet her emotional needs. I want for us to be able to communicate effectively. I want her to feel that I am approachable no matter how bad an issue seems. I want to never hurt her again. I want her to be happy. I want our children to be happy, to see that mom and dad are madly in love and madly love them.

Conversely, I want to know and feel that she feels all the same things towards me.

We haven't had those things in a LONG time through both of our faults and actions. I want to change that more than I have ever wanted anything in my life.

BTW how did exposure to your kids go?

I haven't seen my kids in two days. I work crazy hours (which is part of the problem). I've got to go back to work for another sixteen hours in about five minutes. I'm taking steps to rectify that but its not immediate.

So, no, I have not talked to them about this yet.

I hope you rectify that immediately.

In addition to helping to defog your WW, Dr Harley talks about how kids will blame themselves for marital problems/tension on the household...and that's part of the reason that exposure is so important, so that they understand it is NOT due to anything that they did.

Then you will be willing to be patient.

Shattered you are the mirror of what I was. Know that you did the right thing! NOW with the power of knowledge you can and will have those things! It will take time so be patient (coming from a high Driver personality that wants everything done now :))
We all try to drive our marriage with intuition. It fails most of us every time. The truth is that when we dont have open and honesty and joint agreements we cause ill feelings towards the one we love. I find it odd we are kinder to strangers than we are to our own spouses.
Most marriages and spouses have no idea that they lack ful filling each others emotional needs. Its driven with selfishness and not selflessness. Be selfless now and for the rest of your Life to your wife. Place her on that pedestal and honor her. Now as much as you can but later out of pure love.
I have been where you are more times than I care to be. I let it slip back both times by not following a plan. IT WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN!
My Wife is a happy woman today (when I hold back depression and anger) because she has HER needs met. In return she is now making sure mine are met. All because we are on a plan to build romantic love. I am affectionate (non sexually) I am attentive and I delve into conversation with her. I am helping with domestic duties and support. These are the things she needed to be emotionally close to me that I lacked doing. We have agreed honesty is the only policy. We discuss decisions and make them together so as to not sacrifice each others feelings.
EVERYONE is wired for an affair. EVERYONE! Needs are so strong that when not met they leave huge holes in our soul. We seek someone that will meet them regardless of our morality of convictions.It always starts as friends and always starts with conversation. You and she must be able to recognize these dangers and know how to avoid them with stronger boundaries in place. Making sure each others ENs are met usually goes a long way to avoid the temptations anyhow.
Forget every other site you dabble in. I have pre scouted them for you. Stick here and learn. Read all of DR Hs knowledge and listen to every clip then apply it. When shes ready introduce them to her and actively work with her on these principals and you will see amazing results.

I work crazy hours (which is part of the problem) The rule of time. I know it cant be fixed quickly but know that time spent with your W meeting each others ENs is your first priority. Work on a solution daily.
If you have vacation time DR H recommends a vacation with just the two of you. A week is good 2 is better. Amazing what a week of solid UA time will do.

All of this is possible!

Just not by tomorrow.

The beauty of MB is that there is a PLAN for recovery of LOVE after adultery.
(That is Not plan A & B)

Just not by tomorrow.

Your wife is not ready yet.
She needs to go through withdrawal.

Just not by tomorrow.

Pepper you are the woman!

I am NOT!
I have da'girl parts.

ok u the woMAN

Before exposure, heck, before I knew for certain or even suspected an affair, I read MB. I asked my wife to read Dr H's principles. She half heartedly skimmed the site but didn't show much interest.

I asked her today if she would be open to additional counseling. She said she would...but not from Dr. H. She said she doesn't agree with his philosophies but wouldn't elaborate.

She does not agree because the recommended process gives her no wriggle room or chance to blame you, as she was in the affair she would never agree why should she.

The MB process is a proven process stick to it for the sake of your marriage.

I don't think she gets to negotiate the terms of recovery (who counsels or not). The wayward only gets to negotiate things once recovery is truly underway.
You insist on certain things as the betrayed and later work on win/win situations.

People.....am I right?
(maybe not, but comment on this please)

How can she say she doesn't agree with Dr. H's principles if she only half-heartedly skimmed the site? Would she be willing to do at least the Emotional Needs Questionnaire?

How can she say she doesn't agree with Dr. H's principles if she only half-heartedly skimmed the site? Would she be willing to do at least the Emotional Needs Questionnaire?

I'm going to persist. I have believed in the MB process from the first article I read on this site.

She's just very heavily in the fog right now. Whereas yesterday her emotions (immediately after exposure) seemed to be true remorse and shame, today seems to be a mixture of shame and A LOT of anger. She is very mad at me. Whereas yesterday she wanted to hug and kiss, today she won't even look at me much.

Still, I have hope.

Dr Harley doesn't do counseling anyway. His children, Dr Jennifer Chalmers and Steve Harley do that. If she won't counsel with them, I would IMPLORE you not to go to counseling.

Marriage counselors are destructive to marriages and have no comprehension of the fogged out mindset of a wayward. Because of this, you might end up divorced if your W tells a MC that she is unhappy in the marriage. Marriage counseling has an 84% FAILURE RATE and MCs actually have a higher divorce rate than the general population. They do not have the slightest idea how to save marriages. We have to mop up their messes on this board every day.

I would try to influence her to go to counseling with one of the Harley kids, but that is hardly something you need to negotiate NOW. That can be down the road. What is important now is that you end all contact in her affair and work on affair proofing. You don't need counseling to turn your marriage around anyway.

Keep in mind, though, that a plan of marital recovery IS NOT NEGOTIABLE. So while she might not want to counsel with Dr Harley, participating in a recovery plan THAT WORKS, is not negotiable. Just going to counseling for the sake of going to counseling WILL NOT SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE. And will likely harm it.

Normal and normal. Let her go on anything but accountability for her time and NC for right now. Dont press issues of a recovery plan yet while shes still foggy. Your wasting your breath. Just keep affirming that your boundaries to remain in the M are NC EVER again with OM and a plan that will help your M build romantic love by meeting each others needs that have went unmet.
Really not much work you can successfully do while foggy. Order the books then let her see you reading them and have them lying around for her inspection.
My Wife was also reluctant again on MB. Now shes using the terminology. LOL. Its resistance to change your facing not what counselling approach.
Avoid bringing up the A for now and just be in a stellar plan A. Its not time for the stick yet she has to start eating the carrot first.
But do be firm on accountability and persistent on "having a plan" that will work for both of your benefit.
Mine loved POJA when she finally understood it benefited HER!

I wholeheartedly endorse this. Even just a weekend, if you can.

Don't focus on the A at that time, heck, don't even mention it for the entire trip if you can get away from it. You want the vacation to be about YOU and HER, and reconnecting. Almost as a kind of proof, to her, that the two of you CAN love each other and enjoy each other's company.

Of course, she has to agree to a vacation. Sounds like she is mad right now, and that's ok--you're in Plan A. You knew she would be mad. Keep plan A-ing your heart out. She needs to go through withdrawal, and the fog needs to start lifting before you can do much in the way of actual negotiating.

Whereas yesterday she wanted to hug and kiss, today she won't even look at me much. Try to initiate the non sexual affection as much as you can. Most womens top needs are affection and conversation. Be stellar in meeting both. And NO LOVEbusting (wish I had a nickel for every time I reminded myself of this)

Well, I'm glad to see that I'm starting to think like the advice you're giving. I'm still faltering on implementation.

First, we already did a 2 day get away just a couple days ago...but that was BEFORE exposure. I pampered her and gave her 2 days of UA. She gave me 2 days of sneaking to the bathroom to log into her fake facebook account and talk to him. Again, that was before exposure.

So this afternoon, I tried to not dwell on the topic and give her space. I showed her affection (a nice non-sexual hug here and there, just a caress of the arm here and there). She acted repulsed by it.

I was sitting here in my room reading the forum and she came and plopped down on the bed. Her signal that she wants to talk.

So, the only point I tried to make was one thing: No contact with him. EVER. AGAIN.

She said she already broke contact and that she doesn't know why I don't trust her. She said her last contact was with him yesterday after he sent us the threatening message to expose all their conversations. She said she told him that she doesn't know why he would do that, that she is sorry for putting him through so much trouble, and that they should never contact each other again and he should have a nice life.

This was AFTER she was supposedly to have deactivated that fake facebook profile. So, logically, she reactivated it. I told her she needs to delete that fake account, not deactivate it. She said she doesn't know how. I told her I'd show her.

She then goes on to tell me to do it myself since I must know her password since I know everything that she is doing. She refuses to see that she is exhibiting textbook behavior of everything you guys have told me would happen and that she is now very predictable.

I admitted that, yes, I was snooping but that she had no right to make demands that I stop. I told her that her actions have been dishonest and have not inspired confidence in her fidelity.

She denied having any kind of addiction to that relationship.

She expressed utter contempt to the plan of action that Melody suggested I propose to her (No contact letter, delete facebook, open discussion of affair, etc).

She said she doesn't see the point and that I should just take her word that it is over. She then asked "Where are you getting all this crap anyway? From that stupid website?" She mocked my efforts at fighting for our marriage and expressed nothing but scorn for MB.

She again expressed her belief that I could and should never forgive her or trust her again. I expressed hope that we could rebuild that trust and that I could forgive her if she took the steps to earn it.

I suggested that in regards to her affair, there was no room to bargain. That I wanted her to follow the process that I pitched.

She said she didn't want to do it but was like "I'll do whatever since obviously I have no choice. YOU'RE in control just like always."

I told her that I dont' want her to feel controlled. That for every other aspect of our marriage we were to work on The Policy of Joint Agreement. I told her that in regards to the affair, though, that just didn't apply. I was fighting for our marriage when she would not. I said "Our marriage can survive us being angry at one another. We'll get through that. It can't survive a continued affair though."

She still doesn't want to follow this process. AT ALL.

I was baited into biting off more than I could chew with that conversation. All I wanted to stress was no contact with him but ended up letting all this spill out.

Oh, and she is still furious about exposure.

Shattered, I think you made a mistake, here. If she wanted to talk, I don't think you should have launched out into making any points. I think you should have just listened.

She needs you to start meeting her emotional need for conversation; you can do that at this point by listening to her and encouraging her to talk. She is still fogged out on her drug and most of it will not make sense, and she will not be receptive to any points you want to make. But you can listen.

I think Pepperband has given you some excellent advice about this.

She cannot see. You are trying to make a falling down drunk see. Your approach is wrong.

I know markos. I screwed up.

This is good advice.

It's not over, Shattered. You know what to do next time.

Don't try to present her with this plan for now or your reason for being hopeful or try to persuade her that she is to be hopeful.

Just present yourself as being willing to listen to her.

That's not easy for a lot of us men. And sometimes we don't want to talk about what our wives want to talk about. Especially if it's an affair!

Just listen. Ask her to tell you more. Empathize. Tell her how sorry you are that she is going through this. She has just shot herself in the foot. Of course, she has done worse injury to you, but you are still sober and she is not, so there aren't too many alternatives at this point other than for you to be there for her. And doing so will begin to heal your marriage.

She will almost certainly come wanting to talk to you again, especially if she is completely cut off from OM.

SH, now I am really worried about your prospects when I read this. I am not certain why you think you screwed up. You did just great. If you get discouraged at the first sign of trouble, this does not have a bright future. Just because she is not jumping for joy does not mean you screwed up, it only means she is fogged out and angry that you interfered with her affair. There is nothing you can say to her right now short of agreeing to allow her to have a boyfriend that is going to inspire happiness on her part. She is not supposed to be happy and agreeable right now. You just took away the crack pipe!

This is why you have to be a broken record and stay firm here. She is testing to see if you really mean all this and are serious about your plan of recovery. If you run for the hills at the first sign of fogbabble, you are not going to make it, friend.

Be a broken record, tell her: "this is what it will take to recover our marriage. I do not want to stay in a loveless marriage. this is what it will take to make me feel safe."

If you want to lead your marriage out of this fog, you need to avoid appeasement, stop getting scared so easy, and stick to your plan of recovery. You are at a critical place and if she sees you run at the first sign of displeasure she will know you are not serious.

So no, you did not screw up. You just have unrealistic expectations about the mindset of a wayward.

How is it that she got a message from the OM if she has cut off contact?

She does not get to decide what is necessary for the recovery of your marriage, though. Those are extraordinary precautions that are NOT NEGOTIABLE. I think it is cute and winsome to listen to her and say some cute soothing things, but it won't recover your marriage. Appeasing a tyrannical wayward will avail you nothing. Rather, save your soothing cute words and use them to reward her for GOOD BEHAVIOR, not tyrannical behavior.

Not negotiable, SH. Your wife is still holding out hope for her affair and has NOT ended contact. This is WHY she is so hostile to the notion of recovery. Tell her this is NOT NEGOTIABLE and that not protecting your marriage from her affair will lead to divorce. This is not the time to get wobbly. If you want a marriage, you have to stick to your guns and not waver. Otherwise, she will know you are not serious and you won't have a marriage.

You can see where this sentence makes no sense, right?

Fogbabble. Ignore this. Consider it up there with "I can drink! I'm not an alcoholic!" While she's staggering and falling against the wall.

Of course not. You'll have to lead her into this. And you can do that.

Okay, a little too much too soon. You're okay, though. She is drunk and won't remember this when she has de-fogged.

It's working. Good job!

Melody, I did everything exactly how you just posted. I was a broken record. I stuck to my guns and told her "this is what it is going to take for you to start earning my trust back."

I told her it was non-negotiable. I told her that contact was not an option. I told her that choosing to contact him was choosing to end our marriage.

Oh and in regards to how she got his message, my fault. I childishly told her what he said in the hope that it would piss her off at him. She in turn reactivated her deactivated facebook page and confronted him about his threats. All I did was reset the clock with a renewed contact.

That is perfect! Then stick to it! Continue to tell her what it will take to keep you in this marriage. When she says "you're controlling me!!" You should say, "nope, I don't have the power to control you. But I do have the power to control whether or not I remain in an abusive marriage where you hurt me and the kids. And I chose to NOT stay in such a marriage."

I guess I am not understanding why you think something is wrong here. She is not expected to jump for joy at the prospect of not being able to continue her affair and continue to CONTROL YOU. She has had you under her control for a very long time and does not like you taking back control of your life.

But if she can manipulate you into silence and take back that control SHE WILL. Go along with that and you won't have a marriage, my friend. That is like handing the car keys to a falling down drunk. And that is where you were the day before you came here. So don't hand the keys back to a drunk over a little whining!!


No, you didn't reset the clock: SHE DID. She used that as an excuse to contact the OM.

Please do not back down now, SH. Stick with your recovery plan and lead your marriage. Don't let her whining scare you off. Continue to tell her that this will lead to DIVORCE if there is no plan of recovery.

And tell your kids DAMMIT!!! She very much needs that wake up call. Don't warn her, just sit them down and tell them about their mother's affair. Tell them you are doing everything to save your marriage and are hopeful that she will end contact with her adultery partner. Tell them to FEEL FREE to ask their mother about the affair.

here

Ok, so yesterday she woke up and the furious with me for exposure attitude prevailed for the morning.

Nevertheless, I woke up early to take kids to finish off Mother's Day shopping. Once I returned from shopping, her attitude seemed to have thawed. She started to act a little affectionate towards me a lot less detached. She again expressed feelings of love and concern towards me.

I didn't press the issue of the No Contact letter or the other five steps of the plan with her. I left it somewhere for her to find if she snoops instead.

I typed out the No Contact letter (almost verbatim of what Melody posted) and left it open on my laptop. I also left a note open on my laptop listing the five steps. I then left an internet explorer page open telling how to delete a Facebook account.

Now, up until now I haven't told anyone, including all of you how I have been snooping very effectively on her. I definitely haven't told her because I want to be able to continue snooping.

I don't want to post here how I am snooping either because I never know if she'll wander into these forums and read this. She has known since before I even suspected an affair that I read MB.

Well, my continued snooping allowed me to find a conversation she had with her aunt on Facebook. In that conversation, she sarcastically tells her aunt that I caught her in an emotional affair. She downplays the "affair" and chalks it up as being categorized as such as by my own paranoia.

She downplays her relationship with him because they didn't have sex. She does mention that she "had the opportunity to have sex with him but didn't". What she doesn't tell her is that she tried to have sex with him but he rejected her. She doesn't mention the conversation in which she calls him mean for rejecting her and not having sex with her. She makes herself out to be the good guy here by saying that she is being punished even though she didn't do anything. She expresses that she SHOULD have so that at least she could have gotten some enjoyment out of this situation for which she is now being punished. She even downplays her emotional connection to him. She conveniently doesn't tell her aunt that she told the guy repeatedly that she loves him (all the way up until hours before exposure) and that one day they'll find a way to be together. She leaves out that she told him that she'll understand if he finds someone to marry in the meantime but that she expects him to cheat on his wife with her if he does. She doesn't mention that, to him, she categorized their relationship as a "cheating affair" and states that she is bad at it and got caught.

Her aunt of course takes her side and says very hurtful things about me. Her aunt suggests she plays mind games with me to lead me to believe she is having an even more lurid affair.

She expresses that she found the stuff I left open on my computer about this exposure process and that she does not want to do any of it.

She also expresses that "my behavior" is making her "put on her running shoes" to leave me.

She mentions this exposure with severe scorn and mocks the process.

Her mom is coming into town today to stay with us for a few weeks. I can guarantee you that her mom will provide the same lopsided, ill-advised support that her aunt is providing. The exposure to her family has not had the desired effect.

The exposure to my family has had no effect because she is hiding from them and refuses to see them.

My very effective snooping has not uncovered any further contact with him.

Since contact appears to be severed, should I continue to focus on Plan A or should I shift to a Recovery Plan?

I think I know what to do next. Let's just see if what you guys are about to yell at me is what I'm thinking.

Call her mother and cancel the visit , give her some of the information you mentioned particularly how the OM rejected her sexual advances , you do not have to say how you came into the information, hell you may even imply it comes from the OM.

Start reversing the gaslighting, if her aunt and mother are not for you and the marriage then cut off family ties. Do not hesitate to tell your MIL that you will have zero tolerance for your wifes infidelity or your MIL's negative interferance. Warn her you have hard evidence and unless she wants her daughter to be humiliated by the release of this information she had best be a positive light for the marriage.Hold your ground.

There's no canceling the visit. We leave for the airport in a few minutes.

I would explain to her that you agree with this. That if she cannot abide by the conditions to protect you from her affair that she needs to put on her running shoes. You would sure hate to see her leave, but you know your marriage cannot recover under these conditions. Tell her AGAIN you are not willing to stay in a loveless marriage and this is what it will take:__________________________.

Have you been able to get in touch in touch with the OM's wife/girlfriend?

Additionally, I would speak openly about the affair to your wife's mother. Give her all the evidence and -----------> ASK FOR HER HELP IN SAVING YOUR MARRIAGE. Ask her to use her influence to persuade her daughter to end her affair FOR THE SAKE OF THE GRANDCHILDREN.

Make sure she has the correct story. And if she interferes with your marriage then you need to drive her BACK to the airport, my friend.

And most of all, don't allow her to intimidate you. That is all this is: an intimidation campaign to see if she can shut you down. Don't let her succeed and you will be fine!!

Pull you MIL aside , mention as she is your house she respects your marriage and does not imply any form of support for your wifes infidelity , any issues within your marriage are for you and your wife to fix. If she declines or is disrespectful book her return flight, you cannot have a supporter of adultery in the house. If she challenges the exposure say you are following the MB process that has saved tens of thousands of marriages , say to your MIL when she gets to her first hundred you may chose to take her advice.

You are not in recovery yet. Stay on your Plan A best.

I would talk to your MIL and tell her that you know how much she loves her daughter, and that your respect your MIL enough to tell her the honest truth about her beloved daughter's actions. Then tell her the truth. Your WW is playing fast and loose with the facts and her family is buying what she is saying because they are loyal to her.

They also more than likely have her best interests at heart. If you tell MIL what has really been happening, and show her the hard evidence (without giving up your snooping tools) she will quickly realize that her daughter is making poor choices that will come back to bite her.

Tell your MIL the truth.

Thanks for the advice. I am going to pull my MIL aside and talk to her exactly how you suggested maritalbliss. She is a very intelligent woman and I do believe she has my wife's best interest at heart.

Do you think that if I printed something off explaining what "The Fog" is to show my MIL along with the hard evidence that it would help her understand what he daughter is going through?

I wouldn't attempt to educate your MIL. Have info available for her if she wishes to hear more. But your goal should be to make your MIL aware of her daughter's damage to herself. Start there.

It's kind of like the mideast peace process, isn't it?

Shattered your doing great man. Keeping a cool head is a good start. Plan A her to smithereens. You are fighting 2 battles here simultaneously.
1) NC and Recovery plan. WSs seldom jump on board and most shun the idea. Fog and history help them play this role. They throw out empty threats and refuse a plan. Just keep at it that its your conditions to remaining in the M and you have set your boundaries. I repeated it so often I thought about taping it so I could save my breath.
2) Emotional needs. Make no mistake you are NOT to blame for her actions of starting an EA. But the environment the M was in does. Changing the environment is something you dont need her for. You lead by example. Have you been able to somewhat identify the ENs your M lacked? The more you meet her ENs the more she will quit resisting but its still early in the process.
I am amazed of the dynamics of EAs and PAs. They are all so similar that the behavior is predictable and so is what the WS says and does most times.
A note tho about toxic friends/family. If they are toxic and you can see that they are they need to be disposed of somehow.

Again, I can't thank everyone here enough for all the advice, support and encouragement. I've kind of been all alone on this. Everyone in my life who I could turn to for support has given me bad advice. Those who I've spoken to that have been through this, didn't come out in the end with an intact relationship. So I've gotten a lot of "I know exactly how you're feeling" but no "This is how you fix this", except from you all. Again, thank you. Having been in this situation before, you all DO know how much your support means to me.

Here's where we stand today. Yesterday was Mother's Day, so I spent the day making her and my kids feel special. Her mom arrived to stay with us from out of town and the kids and I took them out to dinner. I layed off of pressing the issue of NC and Plan A for the day and spent the day creating an environment where everyone could just relax.

Things felt almost normal. Of course the spector of her A is still in the forefront of my mind. There is still no closure for me and I can't begin to start trusting her yet. I really want to though.

I'm determined to stick to this process. I received SAA and HNHN in the mail today. I'm going to devour them over the next couple of days. I doubt she'll be open to doing the same this soon.

I have moved past the blaming myself for her actions. I DO recognize my faults, though. I DO know that I was not meeting her ENs. I've known that for a long time. I was just too stubborn, proud, and pissed at her for not meeting my ENs and I shut her out.

Because we haven't had the conversation where she has specifically told me her priority ENs are, I can only guess and try to fulfill them. So, over the past few weeks, I've been going out of my way to change and fulfill the ENs that I know I was obviously not satisfying. I have hope that eventually she'll thaw and warm up to this process and I'll be able to get her to participate in the EN survey. Until then, I'm going to keep improving on the obvious.

onemoretime, in regards to my MIL, I do not believe she is "toxic" in any way. She does have my wife's best interest at heart. Her sister, my wife's aunt, on the other hand is completely toxic. Luckily, she lives far away and there isn't constant contact. I still haven't had the opportunity to talk one on one with the MIL. That is one of my top priorities though.

I have hope that having her mother here will help my WW get through the "withdrawal" and depression of NC and the fog.

Okay, so I'm halfway done reading SAA. I'm finishing up the section about Plan A and Plan B. I've quickly realized a couple things that I think you guys have been trying to tell me.

First and foremost, my belief in my WW suffering from an addiction that prevents her from making sane choices has been reinforced.

But the second and more pressing realization that I have had is that it would seem to be counterproductive for my WW to read SAA. First and foremost, her fog would prevent her from receiving any real impact from the text that would make her change her ways. But more importantly, she would know my gameplan for how I intend to respond throughout this process. I would think that it would prepare to be an even more effective liar and cheater to know what is coming next.

I know I'm only halfway done with the book, but this book seems more for me than it is for her. Am I wrong?

No. IMO those books are useless to an active wayward. Giving them to a wayward to read in the hope that they will as a result of it give up their wayward behaviour will be about as productive as trying to teach a donkey to fish.

Even worse, as you've indicated, an active wayward may actually try to use some of the information in those books against you.

I was just too stubborn, proud, and pissed at her for not meeting my ENs and I shut her out. PORHonesty will prevent the stonewalling in the future. In a biblical sense the book Love and Respect explains this well also (another suggested read if you two attend church)This is a huge thing. Being open and honest about "feelings" If needs arent being met, they need to be discussed. This is hard for most people as we assume meeting EN's comes naturally and actually it takes WORK.When spouses say "we have drifted apart" "we are different people" "ILBNILWU" its always just a code that says "your not meeting my emotional needs" Men have habits of stonewalling as a defense. In hindsight it usually just drives a spouse to an A.
There is still no closure for me and I can't begin to start trusting her yet. I really want to though. Trust is a hard one. Dr H says we should NEVER trust our spouse. Never! We are all wired for A's. Transparency, openness and honest builds trust but never think you will or should have trusted her. Its a luxury thats not afforded to any spouse in my opinion. There are degrees of trust and you will regain comfort eventually. But NEVER fully TRUST.
SSA is something she will need to read AFTER the fog has lifted. Some a few weeks some a few months and for the lucky few its immediately after exposure.For now its more for yourself.
ENs are so strong that we will go to any length to have them met. Morality and convictions get lost in that beckoning. Once they are met by our spouses it literally helps the affair proofing of our M. That along with extraordinary precautions POJA and PORH. At some point she will need to learn the dynamics of how A's start. But not now.
Because we haven't had the conversation where she has specifically told me her priority ENs are, I can only guess and try to fulfill them You ca bet her EN's follow suit with majority. Conversation and Affection (non sexual) are USUALLY the top ones for women. And also remember they can shift priority often so its a moving target. The single most thing you can do at this point is concentrate on UA time and meeting those likely needs. (example) As those top EN's are met and say money gets short. then financial need may rise to the top as an. Or if you are busy with work and cant help domestically as much that "need" may take priority.
At least with MIL there it will afford you some comfort in your absence. I would ask WW to join you in exposing to MIL. She will likely refuse but ask.
So I've gotten a lot of "I know exactly how you're feeling" but no "This is how you fix this" Yes you have joined a club none of us wish we had ever had to pay dues to get into. Most people "DONT" understand. They rely on intuition to guide them. Everything that has a chance of success needs well thought out plans and appointed actions. This includes M.
Oh and PLAN A is a constant.I dont think you meant you put it off if you created an environment of relaxation. That is one of Love so you were still plan Aing.

I re-read that last night and realized that my post was inaccurate and out of context in regards to putting off Plan A. I'm still Plan A-ing to death. I just put off the NC demand on Mother's Day.

Today I'm spending a little QT alone with the MIL and will articulate the exposure to her. I already have sent her an exposure message. Today, I'm showing her my evidence and asking for her help in pressing NC.

If the way my wife has spun this incident to her aunt is indicative of what she told her mom, I definitely need to show the MIL my evidence so that she can see that her daugther is lieing to her.

Perfect! And do this, SH: Tell her you are not telling her this to bash your wife, but to ASK FOR HER HELP AND ADVICE. Tell her you love your wife and want to save your marriage. The more people who speak to her about ending her affair, the more likely it is that someone can get through to her. Ask her if she would use her influence to persuade your wife to end her affair and work on the marriage.

LOL Yes I figured you didn't lay off of Plan A. Its a constant strive for us BH's that love our WW's.
I will tell you that most WW's involved in EA's VS PA's will downplay the chit-chat that happens in the EA. Thats because they dont really understand that they were slowly but surely delving over to the "dark Side" and how meeting EN's play a role in romantic love thresholds. It was "just talk" and we are "just friends" crap.
MIL may be a great Allie for you. But remember that its HER child so no matter the "unconditional love" factor has to play in. Most moral In Laws will react but not harshly.
Your doing all the right things SH. It will turn in your favor just not soon enough. Time drags when in this sitch. DRAGS. Did you see YOUR MD to help your stress yet?

I have not seen an MD yet for the stress. I am seeing a counselor to talk through MY issues though. I don't expect the counselor to save my marriage. Only my wife and I can save our marriage.

As far as the stress goes, its still there but no where near as bad as when I first discovered the A. I'm actually pretty good at dealing with stress most of the time. The bombshell of discovering the A was a moment of weakness / temporary insanity.

I'm not angry and, surprisingly, never have been throughout this ordeal. Is that not normal? I am hurt, without a doubt, but not angry. Beyond the hurt, I am still physically restless. If I don't take sleeping pills (over the counter) I can't sleep at night. I exercise daily to help with that. When I do sleep, though, there are always nightmares of losing my wife and family. EVERY. NIGHT. Even if I wake up and don't remember the dream, the FEELINGS of what I was dreaming persist. You ever wake up from a dream, know you're awake, but still FEEL what you were feeling in the dream? Well, a lot of times I wake up with a persistent feeling that I don't belong in the bed I am sleeping in with my wife. Like, I'm not ALLOWED to be there. It sucks.

Beyond the hurt, though, my overriding feeling is one of hope for my marriage and family. I will persist.

My WW, on the other hand, DID see an MD in regards to her depression. She would not talk to me about it. She would not tell me what was prescribed. She would only tell me she went for help sleeping. I again had to resort to snooping to figure out what she was prescribed. She has hidden her meds. She takes one of each out from wherever they are hidden and will leave them lying on the counter when she takes a shower. I snuck over and identified them. One is an antidepressant, one is a sleeping pill.

So, though she still refuses to be open with me, there is hope that at least she is being treated for the fog depression.

Good, I was so distraught I sought Meds to help. Still on them as ANGER was (IS) an issue for me. I take less of them now but still need them on "them days"
You definitely have the right mindset! Self care is huge and many many of us forget to eat, exercise and we cant concentrate on anything. Glad you are in the right mind! I also usually handle stress well but not this kind.
She's not ready for honesty yet still more fog issues. That will come.
Did you not ever have her MD paperwork saying you could get her info. We both have in my case. He has to disclose if I ask and patient confidentiality waiver was signed.
I know the night mares well. I woke and still do some with overwhelming feelings of many types. Cried rivers and despaired. Felt like I was an alien in another world and such. That will to pass.
Ok the stage is set for just plan Aing. Its your best weapon by far along with UA. Watch for that NC and keep eyes and ears way open.

I was not angry either for a while; at first, I was in shock and a kind of disbelief. I mean, I SAW the emails and I KNEW the PA happened, but there was this disconnect between the new reality in my life and my pre-A "former life." I had terrible rushes of adrenaline that had nowhere to go; my heart beat very fast for long minutes at a time in response, frequently making me sleepless at night. Even OTC sleep aids didn't work.

Some weeks after we went into recovery, I became very very sad as the whole thing began to really settle into my head. After that, there was tremendous anger, then sadness, then anger, back and forth, and good days tossed in as well. And this is in RECOVERY with FWH promising EPs and doing everything possible to meet ENs. Part of the roller coaster.

It's helpful not to be angry at first, though, because it probably helps BS take care of business.

It took a few weeks for me to get here. I wasn't eating, sleeping, exercising, or doing anything for my own well being at first. I lost 15 pounds in the first 3 days of this thing. 15 pounds!

Now I've got my appetite back, I'm working out again, and I've decided to use my workouts to get to a new level of fitness. I'm going to bulk back up on my muscle mass now that I have involuntarily lost almost all my body fat. I'm not going to torture myself. I have to do things to make me feel like me again and to rebuild my shattered self-esteem.

I spent my QT with the MIL yesterday. I think it went well, for the most part. She responded as I would have expected. First and foremost, she was firmly planted in her daughter's corner no matter what she did wrong. However, she did say that she was shocked and appalled by what my WW did and that she fully supports NC and reconciliation.

In regards to NC, she agreed with most of the five steps NC process to terminate the A. She did not agree with a NC letter. The rest of the steps (getting rid of conditions that created the A, transparency, NC, open and honesty, no nights apart, commiting to rebuilding love in marriage) she was very enthusiastically supportive of.

She was very much taken aback and impressed with my actions towards my wife (Plan A'ing) and children. She said that the positive way that I've been handling this whole thing has surprised her and my WW and that it has my WW's head spinning. She said that my WW has done a complete 180 degree change since she last saw her when this all started. She said that my WW was of the opinion that I could never forgive her and that I would leave her.

One sticking point that she feels my WW will never come to terms with is classifying the affair as an affair. She is making excuses and rationalizing that is was just an EA and not a PA. She feels that they are not the same thing and doesn't want it to be called an A at all. She also believes that a lot of my WW's actions are due to childhood sexual abuse she suffered.

She made an impressive argument in regards to how that childhood abuse affected the way my WW believes she needs to seek out and feel love. She said that our marriage had gotten to the point where my WW felt as if I didn't love her and she needed to get that love elsewhere the only way that inner abused child knew how to. I asked her to express those feelings to my WW. She said she couldn't because of her own guilt for not protecting her child from what happened to her. She suggested that I tell our counselor and allow the counselor to talk that over with my WW.

My MIL wasn't quite ready to buy into "the fog" and the fact that my WW is suffering from a form of addiction. I didn't bother to tell her some of the excuses she was making for my wife was fogbabble and only served to enable my WW.

In the end, I expressed my persistent hope for saving my marriage and my love for my wife and family. I expressed my ability to forgive and that my wife could earn my trust back.

I explained a lot of the other concepts of the MB process such as Love Bank, Love Busters, POJA, PORH, etc. She LOVED the entire process. The only thing she was not a huge fan of was exposure. I told her that I subscribe wholeheartedly to the MB process and that I don't see the wisdom of agreeing with everything except the one part of the process that HAS to be painful. She saw the contradiction with the POJA and exposure. She (and my WW) feel that exposure is too controlling a tactic. I offered no apologies and said I stand by the process.

Again, in the end she was supportive of our marital reconciliation and enthusiatically agreed that NC is the only option. She also clued me in on how successful Plan A is working.

I will persist.

She made an impressive argument in regards to how that childhood abuse affected the way my WW believes she needs to seek out and feel love. Many follow this train of thought. But many also think that as adults we chose who we are and its not from where we came from. Our pasts very seldom mold us as adults. We all have choices. Your WW's only problem is a lack of good boundaries. With the right EP's and a true understanding of the dynamics of how A's begin she can change this. Everyone needs to seek out and feel loved regardless of there past. Its one of those NEEDs that have to met by our spouse. Blow MILs impressive argument off until she gets her Masters and PHDs. LOL :0
She suggested that I tell our counselor and allow the counselor to talk that over with my WW. Dont muddy the water with a MC deluging in the past, stick to the present and future. Focus on recovery conditions and ENs, POJA and PORA.Those are the things that will transform a M and something that can be done. A poster here told me to ask a question..."what can I do about it?" If the answer is nothing then move on. If its something then list several solutions. So I ask you this...What can be done about your WW's childhood abuse? Besides having her bohoo about it theres nothing she can do about it. It was a life learning lesson and not a pleasant one. But it cant be changed. So nothing can be done and even better its in the PAST.
She is making excuses and rationalizing that is was just an EA and not a PA. She feels that they are not the same thing and doesn't want it to be called an A at all. ALL PA's start as an EA. Except for the few that are sexual one nighters. EAs allow someone besides our spouse to fill ENs. Sooner or later that fulfillment takes it over the romantic love threshold and then BAM the ugly PA shows up. Let BOTH of them call it what they want to for now. You cant make her change her view of this .....YET! Dr H's opinion is that an A is whatever the offended spouse thinks an A is. The offended spouses opinion is the ONLY ONE THAT MATTERS!
The only thing she was not a huge fan of was exposure This is nothing more than protecting DD. Of course she doesnt want the embarrassing and ugly truth to hurt her DD.She wants to hide it in the dark where A's live. Many that dont understand the exposures intents and purpose say this same thing. But after 6 years here I have seen what NOT exposing does. Sweeping something like this under the carpet is the harm. Forgiving with no conditions is harm. I always did the E bomb but never was stead fast on conditions and boundaries. It has bit me in the ars. My wife is told daily in one way or another that if this M isnt going to be one of ultimate care and protection then I want no part of it anymore. NONE nada ZIP. Im done being complacent and unhappy with my M. Its my personal boundaries and goals that she must share with me as "one". I have no plan B nor do I want one. My only plan is one of recovery and extreme EP's in place by my WW. The next plan is plan FU. And I have been completely honest about it to my WW.I am super loving to my Wife but I no longer am afraid to not be firm in my boundaries that I set. If she doesnt want this she has had been told her options are simply to say no and deal with all that an ugly D will bring. Teaching our children that its ok to give up and make false vows in front of God. We have talked about the ramifications of a D. She didnt like the looks of any of it and says she didnt "think" of those being her consequences.
Time tables are different for waywards. It may take yours a few weeks or months to start feeling the effects of Plan A. But dont be plan doormat. Be firm and honest. Affirm your conditions and expectations and ask her to join.When its time, dish out the stick with love but make sure shes eating the carrot first.
One more thing to consider today. This POSOM didnt mind breaking up and or at least interfering with a family..."YOUR FAMILY". I would not quit my quest of making his life a living HE11. The crazier he thinks you are the faster he will RUN from your WW. I think you said he owns a bar? Blog it in wordpress or put him a nice ad in the local newspaper that his patrons will read. Let the Wifes of his patrons know his true colors. Many many things you can still do. Vindictive...YES. But I find revenge is a dish that is truly best served very very coldly. Threaten my life and my family and I will chase you to HE11 and back again. Thats just me and its not for everyone. But it gave me GREAT satisfaction to know when he heard my name that he would feel sick to his stomach...and he does.

I don't want to take anything away from the trauma of childhood abuse, but the many, many adult survivors who did not seek out an affair to appease their 'inner child' would take issue with what your MIL said. This is an easy anecdotal comment that meshes the two issues of abuse and infidelity when they shouldn't be meshed.

This comment makes no sense whatsoever.

Good job, SH!!! You have done a superb job on getting your MIL on your side. I don't agree with many of her points, but that is neither here nor there. You managed to gain her support and that is what counts. I would strongly suggest that you always refer to this as an affair, though. Not calling an affair an affair is wayward whitewashing and it sounds like your MIL may have bought into this line of reasoning. And that is ok if SHE doesn;t want to call it an affair, but you know what it is and should always refer to it that way with your wife. You don't need her agreement to call it that.

Went to my counselor today. My WW offered to go as a joint session but I wanted to go alone.

I filled my counselor in on everything up to this point. She was impressed with my progress. She also was impressed with almost all of the insight that I have gained from MB....except for exposure. She focused mainly on how controlling a tactic it is and thought it was a bad idea. I offered her no apologies either and told her I believed in the process.

In the end, she said she had great hope for my marriage. She recommended that I lay off of discussing the affair or referring to it as an affair for now. She said that the only way for me to trust my wife again was just to trust her. She said I should stop snooping because I was not going to find anything that I like. She said if I found nothing, I would just keep obsessing and checking repeatedly over it and drive myself crazy.

As I described to her the method MB suggests to terminate an affair (exposure, NC letter, transparency, eliminate conditions leading to affair, no nights apart, commitment to restoring romantic love), she agreed with most of it. She didn't see the point in the NC letter. She also said to let her keep her passwords secret. She agreed with the rest though. In regards to keeping the passwords secret, she said that it was interpretted by my WW as a means of control which her instinct is to rebel against.

I told her that I didn't think I could follow her advice on that point. In regards to the NC letter, I told her it wasn't for my WW, it was for me. It was to help begin bringing closure. In regards to the passwords, I told her that we never used to hide our passwords or log out of our emails/facebooks until last month when she started this A. And because we never hid it from each other, we never had to check on what each other was doing. I told her that in hiding her passwords and keeping her activity secret, she is struggling to maintain the freedom to continue her secret life and maintain an A and it has to stop.

Nevertheless, she recommended that I think her advice over and consider following it.

SH, it is clear she is not very experienced and educated in infidelity. Most marriage counselors are not. Dr Harley, on the other hand, is a clinical psychologist with 40 years of specialization in infidelity. He has several top selling books on the subject.

The truth is that your marriage would not even be to the point of recovery if you had not exposed. If you had followed this MC's advice you wouldn't have a marriage to recover.

[quote=She said that the only way for me to trust my wife again was just to trust her. She said I should stop snooping because I was not going to find anything that I like. She said if I found nothing, I would just keep obsessing and checking repeatedly over it and drive myself crazy.

[/quote]

That is horribly bad advice. You should not trust your wife and of course you should continue snooping. If you find something you don't like, that gives you an opportunity to protect yourself. It was too much trust that led to the affair in the first place.

This counselor has no idea what she is talking about, SH, and is very unqualified. If I were you, I would take her Dr Harley's material on infidelity and ask her to read it.

This is horrible advice that you should not follow. In order to recover from her affair, she must become completely transparent. It was this secrecy that allowed your wife to carry on the affair in the first place. You have a right and need to know everything she does which means you should have access to each and every password. There should be no secrecy in marriage.

Please tell me this destructive counselor did not spew this nonsense in front of your wayward wife?

*YOU* have a better understanding of affairs than this counselor does. Do you realize this? You recognize the danger of secrecy in marriage, and she does not. This is why marriage counselors are so destructive to marriages.

"Invasion of secrecy" *** LINK *** to a NOTABLE POST

Ok and now your looking in the yellow pages for a new Counselor right? I remember seeing earlier in your post someone saying MC's in general dont know how to handle ending an A. Well you found one that doesnt. Its not there fault they just dont know or dont care to learn as long as they collect the 160.00 they earned that hour. Either way the few things she doesn't agree with we all have seen lead a WS and BS to the big D, and I dont mean Dallas
Secrets are for the Military and such and not for a true happy M. Transparency and Radical honesty is the only way to thrive.
Shattered dont belittle this by calling it anything but what is is. ITS AN AFFAIR! Let her be mad for calling it one if she needs to be. But call them how you see them bud. If in your mind it was an A then it was an A! But bringing it up is a LBer. So try and avoid talking about it to call it anything anyhow.

Yep, it's controlling, alright - you're controlling the life of your marriage! Good for you, to offer no apologies for doing the work needed to save your marriage!

Oh, well, heck. I was going to cut and paste all the quotes that she made that were completely ridiculous, but that would have made my post a mile long. So I'll just post this one and build on it.

SH, you understand that most counselors have learned everything they know about marriage from books they've read and psychology courses they've taken in school, right? They are typically incapable of separating 'self-psychology' from real marriage counseling. They've spent so much time doing clinical nonsense that they've lost their common sense in counseling.

You already did the trust thing! Look where it got you! Hello, counselor! She's so busy looking after your WW's 'self respect' and 'self image' that she's completely overlooking the fact that your wife, while in a place of trust, tossed you in the trash!

SH, my H and I did some MC after his affair. Nice guy. Waste of money. I think a lot of other couples can make the same claim.

That MC, and plenty of others, need to get to this site, order some books and do some serious reading.

MB ... my H and I did some MC after his affair. Nice guy. Waste of money. I think a lot of other couples can make the same claim.
Claim made, fired every single one of them so far. One right about 10 minutes into the session when she said I needed to move out and give my WW her space. I got so mad I got up told her she was an idiot and stormed out and refused to give her a dime. Wife stayed and loved her because she was enabling her. That MC refused to ever see me again, Im glad. At this point I have given up on finding a competent MC.

I agree with you all. I know this process is what is going to save my marriage. I'm being persistent. I just have not been able to get my wife to the table and on board with the process yet.

I'm Plan A'ing the heck out of this thing though and it is paying off. She has several moments where she seems to be defogged at times, but I know she is not yet. She still is not eating very much, can't sleep without sleeping pills, and is tired throughout the day. She is taking antidepressants, which is a good thing. My fear is that she'll fall prey to her withdrawal and recontact him.

My snooping has not uncovered any further contact. For all intents and purposes, I witnessed the last exchange between them. In that exchange she apologized to him and told them she could no longer talk to him. He replied that he would no longer respond to any of her messages because he couldn't even be sure if it was her he was talking to or me he was talking to. Her mom has kept most of her time occupied when she's not with me. Again, I have not seen any further contact yet. Doesn't mean it's not happening though.

When I can get her to agree to transparency I'll feel a lot better about this. I will persist. Until the right time though, Plan A, Plan A, Plan A.

Actually, I trust you to recognize the signs.
Surveillance is a good thing.
It can confirm your observations.

Do you seee how this MC harmed your chances of getting the much needed transparency? That is why I don't recommend marriage counseling unless they understand Marriage Builders.

As far as transparency, that is not negotiable. You don't negotiate that at all. You simply tell her this is what it will take to recover your marriage.

Plan A is for an ongoing affair, for now you should be in Plan RECOVERY. And if she won't get on board and do the things to effect recovery, you are headed for a death of a thousand cuts. I would not waver on this at all.

Melody No harm as he didn't let her go when she asked too go.

Went to my counselor today. My WW offered to go as a joint session but I wanted to go alone

Now fire the IC.

oh good, that makes me feel better. I agree: FIRE THAT COUNSELOR! You would get better results from manicurist. At least getting pedicures won't harm your marriage.

LOL MelodyLane I agree too. FIRED is the only way to go.

SH you ok buddy?

Things have been slowly but steadily getting better. I still have not uncovered any additional contact. She's definitely still in the fog but she's slowly defogging. She's still not eating well and yesterday she had what I believe is a stress headache (went away after long hot shower). She's sleeping better though (meds).

Me, I'm doing the things I have to do to find myself again. My appetite is completely back. I'm working out. I still can't sleep without over the counter help though. Last night I had another one of those moments where I woke up still feeling the emotions of my dream. Same feeling I described earlier: Extreme sadness and feeling as if I was not allowed to remain in bed with my WW. I hope that phenomenon goes away soon.



Melody, I think that is what the MC was trying to tell me in her own way. See, this counselor is MY counselor. My WW was actually seeing another one at one point but switched over to talking to mine (we go separately and only have done one joint session). This week, she saw the MC before I did. I believe she has the MC convinced that the A is over.

From speaking to my MIL, she's convinced of the same.

She's no longer closely guarding her phone as if it contained state secrets. I haven't uncovered any additional contacts through all my veried methods of snoopery.

For all intents and purposes, it does APPEAR that contact has terminated. It's only been 1 week to the day since exposure though.

We have not done any of the things suggested in regards to exposing and terminating an A.

There was no mutually agreed upon NC letter. I did see their last exchange online. It was nothing near what is recommended for a NC letter (i.e. stating that the relationship was a mistake, it hurt BS and family, request no further contact). The exchange was more of an apology which left hope for a future. That I did NOT like. Nevertheless, she did terminate contact. He also terminated contact by saying he will never respond to her again because he can't be sure it's not actually me (he did leave the "I'm always here" caveat, though).

In regards to eliminating conditions that enabled the A, she did deactivate the fake facebook account, but she did not delete it even after I showed her how to. It's as easy as logging back in to use it again.

There's still no transparency yet. While she did initially give me her passwords, she went back later that day and changed them. She still logs out every time she leaves the computer. It wouldn't bother me so much if there had never been an A. But it bothers me even more because up until about a month ago, neither of us hid what we were doing online or our passwords from each other.

In regards to honesty about the A, she won't talk about it. Period. MC suggests we can do that with her present.

In regards to "no nights apart", I suggested that I would try to switch from working nights to working days. She was supportive so long as it was what I want.

We haven't discussed any of the other steps (no opposite sex friends/confidants, commitment to recovery program aimed at restoring romantic love).

Even though we haven't done a lot of that stuff, it does appear the EA is over and NC has been maintained (for a week at least).

All that being said, should I be moving past Plan A at this point and start focusing on Recovery? If so, do I drop the above listed issues (i.e. the NC letter)?

Again, I believe that is what the MC was suggesting. I also believe that is what me wife wants.

Do not falter on your conditions and boundaries. It will show your determination as a weakness. She is still foggy and you wont get much agreement from her till shes over that. Recovery plan is on Yes. Fulfill her ENs when she lets you, be the husband you want to be and the one she needs. But NEVER bend YOUR conditions to accommodate her. It may take some time but she will eventually comply when her love bank has some good deposits made.
A condition you do need to address is the passwords.Or just let it go and have the keylogger gain them for you so you can snoop it and get the real deal. If she is keeping them a secret you can bet she has a reason. And that reason is not to your advantage.

If by recovery plan we're talking about the Rule of Care, Rule of Protection, Rule of Time, and Rule of Honesty...I've been doing that all along. I've been avoid Love Busters at all costs all along.

I want to get her on board with all of it. I'm fairly certain she'll be willing to commit to transparency relatively soon.

Yep. The big thing here is patience. It took months/years to get where you are now, so it takes months/years to get where you want to be. There is no quick fix here. Consistent actions on your part will eventually shine through and burn off that fog.Keep making those deposits and soon enough she will see the true measure of a man.
Im rooting for you and for myself. I have screwed this up so many times its crazy. Im very affective at killing A's but very affective at becoming complacent. Coming here daily to help anyone in need will help my accountability as to my own actions.
For now you have done the heavy lifting and you did what had to be done. Now just sit back with your eyes and ears open and let your actions speak for you.

SH, Just checking in on you man. Hope all is well.

All is well, and at the same time it isn't. (If that makes any sense).

It would appear that all is getting better at first glance. My wife and I are being very loving with one another. Hugs, kiss, and I love yous all around. I am the primary one to initiate that contact though. Its usually her just reciprocating, you know? She calls me when I'm working and texts me with casual conversation though so that's a good sign. She seems to be thawing slowly but surely.

What sucks though is that I'm driving myself crazy with suspicion. I know it's because my trust has been violated by this whole situation. But now I'm being suspicious and my doubts are proving to be false. I'm driving myself crazy.

Example. Last night, my mom mentions that my WW texted her from a weird phone number. She says at first they were texting back and forth from her normal phone number, then all of a sudden she starts getting replies that appear to be continuing the conversation that they were having but from a weird phone number.

My mind immediately races. "Did she get a new phone to contact HIM?" or...."Is she using one of those downloaded free text apps to contact HIM?!"

I call the number. A machine voice tells me it is one of those text free numbers.

Now, in my mind I automatically jump to the conclusion that she has downloaded that app and has been using it to contact him all along. I'm defeated inside. Back to square one with NC and the fight to get her back, my mind conspires.

So, I confront her and ask her about it. She insists she never has downloaded that app. She explains that conversation as follows. She got tired of texting my mom so she told my daughter "Hey text your grandma this". She made my daughter finish the conversation for her from her iPod (which she does have the text free app and uses to text me all the time).

I text the number from my phone, and sure as hell it identifies the number as my daughter's text free number from my phone book.

She was telling the truth and I immediately assumed the worst. I felt like such a piece of garbage.

Beyond the lingering suspicions from my shattered self-esteem though, I feel more madly in love with my wife than I have in a long time. I really feel like a high school kid with a new girlfriend.

Hope prevails my friends...but so do my suspicions and that saddens me.

I'm not a Vet but I will tell you this is VERY NORMAL and will get better in time. It will take a long time for trust to start coming back. I still do that to my husband now and he just calmly explains and askes me if there is anything else he can do for me to feel safe.

I still snoop and plan on snooping untill I feel safe not to (I dont know if that will ever come completly). He will just have to understand that is what I need.

As a WS...I just look as these as little opportunities to prove myself and fill his love bank. You shouldn't feel badly, it is a natural reaction. Just don't approach her in a mean or nasty way.

Good luck

SH, I am not understanding WHY you felt like a piece of garbage? Of course you should assume the worst with an untrustworthy person. You don't trust her. You SHOULD NOT TRUST HER. It is your responsibility to ask these questions and continually hold her accountable. That is a good thing, NOT a bad thing. You are SUPPOSED TO BE ASKING THESE QUESTIONS. It was too much trust that led to her affair. Don't make that mistake again!!

Checking up on her early and often will help you trust again. Make that a WAY OF LIFE and it will be nearly impossible for her to carry on another affair. Isn't that a good thing?

Your feeling bad for being responsible is VERY INAPPROPRIATE. STOP IT!!

I'm driving myself crazy
So far your looking great man. Keep on showing the carrot.
You my friend may have found a trigger. If "they" were texting/emailing before, then every time a text/email comes in or you see going out by her on her cell phone it may trigger you. If so remove the trigger (text/Email ability) at least for now AND if she agrees to it for say 30 days.But your gonna have plenty of these Triggers.
So far you are getting the optimal responses that you want. Keep the love bank filling up and the love busters eliminated.
Now what was it you were scared of a few days ago again? Manage your memories as best as you can! Think about today and the future a little more.
You also just found you had a little more resentment now that shes actually trying to fill up your ENs too. We all do!
But keep affirming most importantly that things have to change and that you have to have some talks about change in your life.
When shes ready share SSA and LB books together. Work the worksheets when shes willing. You may want to print EN questionnaire two times. Fill yours out and attach a blank copy and test the waters by taking action first.
Oh and vent here Great Job!Remember the plan as is with the 2 conditions. NC for life with OM and a plan of M recovery.

Small suggestion: I wouldn't be showing the book His Needs Her Needs to a wayward. She needs to see Surviving an Affair. In HNHN, Dr Harley talks alot about how unmet EN can lead to an affair, in SAA he talks alot about poor boundaries lead to affairs. The former message is not the message you want to send to a WS.

Melody is right my post edited as I agree

That is all very normal. It will take time for your WS to start anticipating your fears and suspicions and tell you BEFORE that she is going to do the following, so you'll know and won't get upset. It will start with defogging and on due course it will become a habit. Right now, she does not realise yet how much pain she has caused to you nor does she see what situations trigger you the most and what she can do to easy your pain, because most of the time she is busy with herself. You need some patience, even defogging is a process.

I guess the reason I feel bad is two-fold. First, by assuming the worst didn't I make a Disrepectful Judgment? Definitely trying to avoid LBs at all cost.

Second, would be my own personal issue and would be a matter of ego. I hate being wrong. I rely heavily on gut feeling and instinct. My gut feeling was completely wrong, and yes like most men, I hate to be wrong. That's my issue I have to work through, I know.

In regards to LBs, though, I did approach her very tacticfully and chose my words wisely when I asked her about it. I explained how it made me feel while at the same time explaining how much love and hope I have for her and our M. She took it very well and was actually very kind in explaining the situation. She didn't seem mad at all and has not been acting any differently since I asked her about it. She's still being very loving and caring.

Which brings me to a question I have about these very intense feelings of renewed love I have for my wife right now: Am I experiencing a form of Stockholm Syndrome???? You know, where she hurt me so bad that any small form affection (or lack of pain infliction) she shows me builds a sense of undying loyalty and empathy for her within me?

I sure hope I'm overthinking this one.

nononononononno!!! You are not assuming the worst, YOU ARE ASSUMING REALITY. And that has been your shortcoming in the past. It is not a DJ to hold your wife accountable, IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.


You were not WRONG. Something looked suspicious and you checked it out. That has nothing to do being wrong. It is all about being RESPONSIBLE. When you are suspicious, ask her to verify the facts so you can rest your suspicions. You need to rule it in or out. That has nothing to do with "being wrong."


You handled this very well, so I am puzzled why you are having such an irrational, inappropriate reaction.


That is referred to as hysterical bonding. When a divorce is averted, the INITIAL feelings are ones of relief. That will wear off and then anger and fury will come out. In a few months you will be asking why you settled for this cheater!

OMGOsh!!


But seriously:
SH, can you get a call into Steve Harley? He could probably undo the harm this MC did and really get your W onboard with a recovery program. This would be the perfect time to do it!

First, by assuming the worst didn't I make a Disrepectful Judgment? Nope.Your taker is protecting you. Natural. Just confirm any suspicions as you did. Calmly.

Enjoy the hysterical bonding. Its a great time to fill up that low Love Bank. Its also a great time to get as much SF as you want Thats a reward you should really enjoy

Melody is so right that your next issues are going to be ones of Resentment and Anger. Manage them by doing some of the stuff your doing. Take the Anger out on the weights and the resentment by reading and thinking about how she is Today and how much better it will be in the future. Once you have POJA and PORH in place and you both understand the importance of ENs. Well then my friend comes the true peace and love that a M can offer. TIME. It will take that. 20 hours a week minimal.

Im very happy for you man. I know its hard and hurts but you caught this early and killed it quickly (maybe as trust isnt given its earned over time). Enjoy your (F)WWs new discovery. She didnt like where it was heading and also remember your M was lacking many things pre A. The work is just beginning.

I'm not looking forward to being angry. This is one of those situations where I find it unfortunate that you guys are right about what I should expect next.



I would like nothing more than to speak with him and have him help my M. She's still not open to it yet. Even though everything I'm doing that has worked has been because I'm following the MB process she's still fixated on the fact that I found the exposure process here as well. Because she disagreed with the one tactic that HAD to be painful in this process, she puts no credence into the rest of the process.

She needs a little more time to come around before I'm going to try and get her to speak to Dr. Harley.

Yep right on tract my man. Theres no quick fix on anger/resentment at times your gonna be thinking Why the He11 did I even try and a mired of negatives. For now just keep on plan, you can take the 2x4 to her later on. VENT here. Love there

I'm still not angry. The hurt is still there though. It seems to be getting worse at times. The feelings of sadness and betrayal have not lessened and prevent me from sleeping well. No matter how tired I get, I can't sleep without waking up repeatedly unless I take sleeping pills.

I experience intense separation anxiety every time we're apart now. I miss her dearly when we're apart but I also fear that any separation could be a trigger for her to break NC.

Still no closure. She won't even talk about what happened with me. She wants to pretend like it didn't happen and for me just to move on with our life and to never bring it up again.

It's like she either doesn't care or doesn't want to accept how much pain I'm in because of her A.

All WSs want to forgive and forget. Thats fine for now as long as your 2 conditions remain firmly planted. NC TO OM period! Some type of plan on recovery. We know what the some type is, she doesn't yet.
Common feeling unfortunately for you and all of us BSs. Sleep whats sleep I nap
As her fog gets cleared off she will see it. Then the EPs and Boundaries start getting discussed. Pre empt them now as something you need to heal. Soon enuf you should see the remorse and sorrow show up with her. Then her mind will open up a little more. I hate to say it like this but its almost like training a new pup. First things first and then you introduce more training as they master old ones. With the occasional loving pop on the nose.
Still early in this, so just keep the carrot going and reinforcing the 2 conditions.
Manage them memories my man. Hard to do I know. Theres gonna be highs and lows. Maybe for a few years. Sorry but thats recovery process. But when the plan is followed there is a pot of gold at the end.

Thanks for listening and thanks for the advice and words of encouragement.

I will persist. I was just venting after a long hard night.

Vent online. Love her offline.

You got it !

Things are slowly but surely getting better, thanks in small part to the support and guidance that you all have provided. I'm following the MB process faithfully and with hope.

Conversation, affection, recreational companionship...their all getting better. I think it may even be time to pull her a little more into the process to get her to participate.

I'm going to try doing the emotional needs survey and get her to follow suit. I'm going to give her my completed survey with a blank one for her to do. We kind of talked a little about it last night, indirectly. I asked her, like SAA suggests, how I was doing at fulfilling the needs I have been trying to fulfill. She's floored with my efforts and says it is making her feel really good. I told her not to be shy about giving me feedback, good or bad. She was very open to it. So, yeah, definitely time for the EN surveys.

What it is impotant to know is there are stages of grief you go through even YES after being a BS in an affair type situation.

You will go thru all cycles of grief and the WS imho, should know that it is NORMAL b/c they CAUSED this, and while you're in recovery, meeting all her EN's, she should also be told that she should soon begin to lift a little in the relationship because of the horrible pain inflicted on your soul.

I went thru all the stages of grief and then back again some. It is only normal and natural. I think there shouldn't be AO, or DJs' going on, but the fws needs to know that they caused YOU undeniable pain and suffering.

They all want you to forgive and forget, and to have themselves not have to do any heavy lifting...which to me is a form of the fog yet still.

First and foremost, that should have been "thanks in NO small part". (too late to edit, sorry bout that)

peachy, I get what you're saying. I'm definitely still suffering. And there is a big part of me that feels I am doing all the work here when she is the one who had the A. I keep telling myself it's the fog and that once it has cleared things will be different, that she will have to make an extraordinary effort too.

Until that point though, I'm fighting for my family when she is too fogged out to do it. My love for my wife and family is greater than my hurt pride or ego. I will persist.

SH, I would focus on getting her into a plan of recovery or this will not work. Going along to get along will result in a long slow death of a thousand cuts. This is the biggest mistake that BSs make, they are so enamored with the relief of killing the affair that they ignore the recovery of their marriages.

If your marriage does not recover, you are headed for a crippled version of your pre-affair marriage and probably future affairs. If she won't participate in recovery, I would let her know that this is headed towards divorce. You really can't afford to lower the bar this low, SH. It won't work. Your marriage will not recover without a plan, and HOPE is not a plan.

Well, she's not as defogged as I would like at this point but I'm not surprised.

We saw the MC today. When asked how things were going, she said things were going great, she's noticed a genuine change in me, she's 100 percent committed to reconciliation and can't imagine life without me. She mentioned all the increased affection, conversation, attention and SF and how she loves every minute of it.

Keenly, the MC asked a good question which I was surprised that she had the foresight to ask. Who initiates all of this (affection, SF, etc)? And my wife admitted it was me and she mostly just "reciprocates".

Funny that she used that word because that is exactly what I feel. She's just "reciprocating". Whereas I am spontaneously expressing the feelings within me every time I show her affection, she is just "reciprocating".

I pointed out that I don't want "reciprocation". Some of that anger that you said I'd experience crept out. It was directed at OM, though, not my wife. I went off on a "F" bomb filled rant about the OM and how I don't care about his feelings (in regards to exposure).

I pointed out all of the above in your last post Melody. I refused to let this be swept under the rug without committing to a plan of recovery. I repeatedly listed the extraordinary precautions that I want her to agree upon. She, and the MC, agreed on them.

She's still angry about the exposure process. Still some fogbabble coming out in regards to me shaming and embarassing her. I offered no apologies and pointed out that HER ACTIONS are what shamed and embarassed her, not me telling people about her actions.

MC kind of agreed with both of us on this point. She pointed out that my wife feels that I exposed only to make her feel the hurt I felt. I pointed out that it was not my purpose to do that. It was my purpose to kill the A which my wife was not doing on her own up to that point.

My wife says that she doesn't think I'll ever forgive her. I repeated my love for her and hope for our marriage and that forgiveness is possible but she has to work for it (by committing to recovery plan and agreeing to extreme precautions).

Overall, the talk with the MC felt like a step back AND a step forward. It was a step back, because my wife obviously is still fogged and ANY discusion of the A is a LB in her mind. It was a step forward because we got to talk about it, I insisted on following the MB process, and she seemed open to it.

We'll see.

Good to hear SH. Keep on that plan of showing her your best side. We all slip into the anger, its going to actually happen more as she starts showing more emotions towards you. Shew... its that old roller coaster ride. It will get better. The record sounds great and its what you still need to be repeating.
On the side note with MC. Dont let MC dive back into past mistakes. Make her help focusing on the future or fire her. Fixing the past cant be done its over and done. Fixing the future is achievable.
Keep up the good work your training a new puppy per say. It takes patience of Jobe.

Well, it seems yesterday's talk with the MC was a bigger step forward than I thought. Had heart to heart with my wife last night. She said she's willing to fully commit to whatever steps I think are necessary to rebuild our relationship.

I'm very happy and hopeful.

Still here. Still reading. Still learning. Still struggling...

I'm fighting that anger you all told me I'd experience. Some days are harder than others. It creeps in from time to time and I really dont know how to handle it other than to surpress it.

Different things will trigger it, but it's mostly hearing the text chime go off on her phone.

I'm also still the one making most of the effort. She does make some effort, which I will admit that I sometimes overlook because I expect more due to all the efforts that I am making. I am the only one who initiates when it comes to SF, that's for sure. The SF has been great, but I don't want to be the only one to initiate.

I have to constantly remind myself that its only been a few weeks and that this all takes time and a commitment to follow through with this recovery process to ensure we dont go right back to the way things used to be.

Again, things are definitely getting better. I really don't like this anger and sadness that I keep feeling when triggered. I don't want to feel this way. When I'm triggered, I kind of just shut down and become a little distant. She immediately notices the difference (hysterical bonding stops) and the incessant "what's wrongs" start. It takes an extraordinary effort for me to snap myself out of it and try to act as if nothing is wrong. I never tell her what I was thinking about that made me distant.

I want these feelings to go away.....but I know they won't without a lot of time and effort.

Anyway, just venting again. Thanks for listening (reading).

Why are you withholding this important information about your feelings from your wife? Does she understand what triggers are? If not, I suggest you make a point of discussing triggers in your next MC appointment so she can hear a professional's perspective. Then share with your wife what triggers you most often, and work with her to find solutions. Confronting triggers together is an opportunity for couples to re-build intimacy. It troubles me that you are instead putting up walls.

Thanks for the reply. Funny thing is, I'm MADLY in love with her. Always have been. None of this has changed that. It's just made me determined to never take for granted that she knows it.

I think a big part of why I'm having such a hard time is that there have been very little extraordinary precautions followed through with yet nor has the topic of just compensation even come up yet.

I just got her to agree with reading HNHN. She hasn't yet, but I've given it to her nonetheless. I ask every once in awhile if she's read it yet. The answer is always not yet but she wants to.

Again, adds to the feeling that I'm making all the effort and makes it that much harder to suppress feelings of anger and sadness.

We read HNHN together--a chapter each night, taking turns reading sections aloud. After each chapter, we went through the questions. We were able to do this gently and thoughtfully and found it very helpful to talk about the needs together. Afterward, we did LB the same way.

You could ask your wife if she would join you in doing the reading together on a daily basis. We found evenings worked best.

The only book we read completely on our own was SAA.

Why haven't you two discussed EPs or Just Compensation? This needs to be covered as soon as possible. Betrayed spouses cannot go back to what the marriage was like pre-affair. We MUST have transparency and the building of the romantic relationship in marriage.

Reading the books together is an excellent idea that I hadn't thought of. I don't know if she'll go for it yet, though.

I brought it up again today. She said she wants to read the book, but only because it is so important to me. She's not enthusiastic about it. She also said she'll read the book on her own when it is her decision to do so and not when she feels I am pressuring her to read it.

In regards to EPs or Just Compensation, I honestly only first read about Just Compensation yesterday. I don't remember it being explicitly mentioned in SAA. The EPs that we've discussed were all suggested here from other posters. She reluctantly agreed to the EPs I suggested, but there is no way for me to know she is following through with them other than to just believe her.

MelodyLane wrote this excellent post and I have re-quoted it here for you. What she wrote is an absolute necessity for your marriage to recover.

Okay, so your W not enthusiastic about this now. My FHW wasn't very enthusiastic at first, but he agreed with the EPs and marital recovery plan. Over the next few months, he was more and more on board with MB. Now he sees the adultery and his affair partner for what they were--skanky and disgraceful. He's terribly embarrassed by the whole thing. And he now sees the need for the EPs. I did NOT let up or give in on this need, and neither should you.

Well, the jury is still out on how that on just went.

I just had a conversation with her in regards my need for these EPs. I expressed how I have been struggling with various triggers. I expressed my desire to stop feeling the way I do (lack of trust). I expressed that these EPs are what I need her to do in order to start building trust and to further our recovery.

She expressed a willingness to go along, but I sensed disagreement and/or ambivalence. She said she wants me to do whatever I think is necessary to make me feel better. She added that she feels it is excessive and that nothing will ever be good enough. She expressed frustration that I don't just trust her and that I am still snooping and that I find it necessary to verify before trusting.

I reminded her that things were not always like this, that I used to trust unconditionally, but that her A had changed everything. She acknowledged that and agreed but still was sad and couldn't believe that I could ever forgive her.

I again expressed my undying belief that we could get through this, that we could trust each other, and that our marriage could be stronger than it ever has been if we stick to this process and make extraordinary efforts.

In regards to episodes where I have become suspicious and questioned her, I offered this bit of encouragement. Each time my mind has assumed the worst when something seemed fishy and I confronted her about it, the explanation she offered had proven to be verifiable and the truth. I told her that each time I have walked away feeling bad for having doubted her, feeling downright stupid either. I added that the patience and compassion with which she responded to my suspicions went a long way in making me feel better about the situation. I told her that it wasn't going to take very many more times of me being completely wrong in the assumptions that I make before I get tired of driving myself crazy with suspicion and she proves that she is trying to be faithful and trustworthy. I told her that I'm already tired of being suspicious and these EPs are what I feel is necessary to make those feelings go away.

In the end, I reminded her of how much I love her and how much hope and faith I have that we can work through this and be stronger and more in love for it.

She said she understood how I felt, she was ashamed, she was sorry, and she was determined never to hurt me again. She still seemed very sad about it all.

Again, the jury is still out on how this will change things.

One thing that is sure to be a sticking point is that I told her while I love HER and am committed to rebuilding OUR trust and relationship, I have no such faith or dedication to reconciling with a female friend of hers that was in cahoots with her during her A. She didn't like that at all.

It's been about a month since I've posted anything. I've wanted to post several times but have been busy giving and receiving UA that I haven't had the chance.

I've had quite a few days where something has triggered negative emotions and I've REALLY needed to post here, but have not been able to get away in order to do it.

Even so, things have been going exceedingly well. I've stuck to the MB process pretty religiously. I still have not been successful in getting her to read HNHN yet. She's still clinging to the "not wanting to be pressured into reading it" thing. So instead, I try to coach her through the process without coming off as if I'm lecturing. That's NOT easy to do.

My feelings of hurt, betrayal and a lack of trust are still here. I still am very suspicious about things that don't make sense at first or appear to be related to an A. I verify before trusting, and then verify again. Each time, she's proven herself to be true and I've felt like a jerk for needing to verify for myself. I don't like acting like this but I have a need to do it anyway. I hope with time and continued effort (from both of us) that this feeling fades.

Shattered, you are still very early into this. Sometimes it takes a WSvawhile to get through withdrawal from the OP. How do you handle these triggers? Can you give us a specific example? Expect the triggers to continue for awhile, but how you handle them is very important. I see that you're meeting a lot of her needs, is she doing the same for you? The last thing you need is a false recovery. Did she put EPs into place? Is she still talking to toxic friend?

Hang in there! This does take time.

Great deal...All of this is very normal. Make time to post, you have to vent and have support. Thats why we are here every day to give and get support.
Keep on spoon feeding her the info. MY FWW didn't want to do much reading at first either...same garble. The proof is in the pudding tho. Keep spoon feeding her. Soon you will ask her if the changes you have made please her. If she says yes accredit it all to MB and ask her to join. Be creative in suggestions. "I would love it if we could take some time to read a few paragraphs or watch a short video together that may help us" Or "would you agree to try some reading together to see if it helps for say 30 days. If after that you dont think its benefiting us we can try something else".....BABY STEPS.
The thing that got me was I gave up my first go round. Settled for a false Recovery and withdrew because of the hurt/resentment. Needs went unmet again, no POJA, no time. no PORH and BAM, she was chit chatting again with a new OM. I seen it coming but thought no way she would do this again. Her need for conversation was so powerful she had to fill it. She sacrificed everything. Home, cars, church, friends and family. She quickly de fogged tho upon exposure. 30 days maybe. Then she started putting in the work. Now I gaurd my M like the secret service does Obama. I wont ever feel like a jerk for asking anything. I have the RIGHT to ask and the RIGHT to know. Transparency is a requirement of M not a option.
Your biggest battle is to not settle back into complacency and the BS resentment.
IF she is not willing yet to work the plan she has not made compensation and you will continue to feel the resentment. I agree with princessm. Keep spoon feeding her one spoon full at a time and give it some more time. She will come around if YOU dont get complacent. And as a side bar "complacency" will lead to a FR. (false recovery)
Shattered you have come a long way through a WAR. Keep on the battle plan. You will win it if you do.

princessm, there have been about three times that I've been triggered. Most of the time, I retreat to "my cave" in my head to try to rationally sort things out before I confront with crazy accusations and disrespectful judgments. The problem is, it is obvious when I am in that place, she notices, and the incessant "What's wrongs" start until I tell her what is on my mind.

Early on, it was the ringing of the cell phone with text messages that would trigger me. It would always cause me to snoop to verify who was messaging. That was early on though when the pain was really raw. I explained to her how the texting made me feel. To make me feel better, she has no qualm with showing me who is texting. She no longer guards her phone as if it contains state secrets. In fact, she often forgets where she left it and I have to find it for her.

On one occasion my mom (who I exposed to and is even more suspicious and reports all activity to me that she finds suspicious now) told me that she had been in a text messaging conversation with my wife when out of the blue the conversation continued as if it was from my wife but came from a different phone number that she was unfamiliar with. I was at work when my mom told me this. Immediately my mind raced to the worst possibility. I assumed she had downloaded a "free texting" app on her phone, was in mid conversation with OM on the app, and accidentally responded to my mom from her free texting app. I couldn't handle not knowing. I took a surprise break, went home, and calmly asked her about it. She explained that she was texting my mom, got tired of talking to her, and had my daughter finish the conversation for her from her texting app on her iPod (i.e. "Hey, text grandma this."). So, I entered the strange number into my phone, shot off a text, and sure as heck it matched up to the number I had listed in my address book for my daughter.

I felt like a total [censored]. My wife was very understanding and patient with my suspicion and the way she treated me did a lot to alleviate my feeling like a total jerk.

That's not always her reaction though. The last trigger was a doozy and she responded with foglike despair (i.e. "You're never going to trust me" type statements). The last trigger was such a doozy because it wasn't one trigger. it was series of triggers all related to the same event: An out of town trip that I could not participate in.

My wife and daughters are very active in scouting. They have been scheduled for an out of state trip that they've been working hard doing fundraisers for for two years. The trip alone, given the context of the recent A, gave me a high level of anxiety and in it of itself was a trigger. Then, I hear one of my daughters mention that they also might visit one of my wife's relatives that lives near where they were going. While all the other girls were taking a chartered bus, my wife would take her car and follow behind so they could leave the group and visit her family. That wouldn't have been a problem...had I heard that from my wife and not from my kids. It felt like a hidden agenda, dishonesty. Big trigger. And plus, what logical objection would I have to her visiting family and why keep that a secret? Oh, and when did I hear this from my kids? When my wife was out getting a new hairdo for the trip. That was another trigger for me, because for so long my wife had not been into primping and pampering herself. Her renewed interest in doing so coincided with her A. Trigger, trigger, trigger.

I went into my cave, she immediately noticed and drug it out of me. Without making accusations, I explained how each trigger made me feel and why. She said she understood why, she hated herself for making me feel that way, and she felt things would always trigger me. I explained that with time and effort it would happen less and less.

In regards to driving while everyone else took a chartered bus, she said that it was never her plan to do that. It was something that her relative mentioned she should do a long time ago during early planning for the trip, the kids overheard her talking on the phone about it, and they must have taken that idea and ran with it. She said it was never her intention to do so and that she was not going to.

And she didn't. She offered not to go at all. While that is what would have alleviated any and all anxiety I felt, I wasn't going to ask that of her. She would resent me forever if I had demanded that. So I took a leap of faith and she went on the trip. She called me nonstop the entire trip. My kids clung to her side the entire trip. She sent me status and photo updates the entire time.

That last series of triggers did something very weird to me emotionally that manifested in a way that really disturbed me. You see, my list of important emotional needs does not reflect those that males typically list (according to Dr. H). My most important emotional need is honesty. Affection and (like most males) SF come in close behind honesty, though. That night, after this last triggered blowup, I found myself very unattracted to my wife. I didn't want affection or SF from. Oddly, I wanted to want it but I didn't want it. Does that make any sense? I still felt love for her but because I felt such a violation of my most important emotional need, I was not physically attracted to her. And because I was not attracted to her, my next two most important emotional needs went unmet.

It was very weird for me. Why? Because the entire time, in my mind, I knew exactly why I felt the way I did. I knew the dynamic of unmet emotional needs thanks to the MB process. I'd be a liar if I said I didn't feel kind of girly for being so emotional and allowing my emotions to affect my need for SF. The old me would take SF any time I could get it. Throughout this entire recovery, though, the SF has been so mutually satisfying and frequent that I no longer feel that need to take it any time she's giving.

That night, we went to bed with kisses and a lot of verbal expressions of love. The next day we talked about how we felt that night. I explained everything I just explained above. She seemed to understand as much as anyone could who hasn't read any of the MB material. I took that as another opportunity to ask her to read HNHN. She again said she would when she didn't feel I was pressuring her to. I left it at that.

She has put EPs in place. It seems that she is sticking to the NC. I have her passwords (transparency). She immediately deleted the phony facebook account and has recently also deleted her real one and agreed to no more facebook. She agreed with not having opposite sex friendships. She agreed to no nights apart and enthusiastically supports my efforts at work to change my work schedule to days instead of nights. She has committed to a program of recovery (through a MC) but is still not on board with MB yet. Although she doesn't know it, she goes out of her way to emulate all of the things that I do (thanks to MB). So, she kind of is unknowingly following the MB process.

Along the way, I ask her how it makes her feel when I apply one of the MB principles (such as UA). When she replies how good it makes her feel and how loved she feels, I let her know that it makes me feel the same when she does it for me.

onemoretime, I'm definitely not being complacent (thanks to what I've learned here and from all of you). It has not been easy. We make extraordinary efforts daily. There are times when I need very bady to post here to vent or for support or for advice. It's been very hard to though because of how much work I'm putting into our recovery.

I lurk sometimes. That lurking confirms that I have a long way to go. Why? Because I read the stories that others post and relive MY pain. I wish I were to the point where I could reply to others and help. But I'm still busy soaking up all your help and helping myself.

I love my wife. I love my family. I will persist...and thanks to MB and all of you we will succeed.

boy whooh thank you for venting for me. had a trigger tonight, and now i know i am not overreacting. 3 triggers is not bad, i have 3 per day, some are mild like the phone and some i let my head run with, some are too funny now when confirmed not real, like when i took his phone and checked the gps online and thought HE was following me... silly me i had the phone.,,.

btw- you are not an [censored] or a jerk, you are just reacting to the way you are feeling and the situation you are in. and letting her know is a big step. having her respond, is amazing. cha ching.

It's really hard to follow the PORA sometimes, especially in regards to these triggers.

My biggest trigger is anything that even closely resembles dishonesty. Whereas before the A, I would accept any logical explanation, now I get suspicious and have to snoop to verify.

The problem with the PORA in these cases is that my wife does not respond well to anything that sounds even remotely critical. While she accepts that her behavior is what made me not trust her, she still responds with despair that I don't "just believe" her.

When I try to be honest about how I feel so that we can talk about it and come to a mutual understanding that makes us both feel better, she responds with tears and crying (no matter how nicely I say it). In turn, I feel bad for making HER feel bad about the way I feel.

More often than not, even after reaching a mutual understanding, me being honest with her withdraws love units from her love bank. There is almost always a noticeable distance between us after one of our talks when I'm triggered. I almost always have to be the one to extend the olive branch and act like nothing is wrong and show extra affection to get us back on track again.

Is it wrong of me to want HER to be the one to make ME feel better? (I kind of already know the answer here...just venting to anyone that is still listening).

I'm listening!

I know how you feel, I have similar problems, even getting him to open up feels like I'm pushing against a locked door, then he gets all upset and miserable, then I have to do things to make him less miserable, and then I get all resentful cos I feel like I am the one doing all the heavy lifting when it was him who went playing away and I get to put it all back together!! What a gift they give us.

Yep I need him to want to make me feel better too........not sure of your time frames but we are 6 months after Dday and I think sometimes we are getting there, then others we ain't.

welcome to the world of the rollercoaster!!

That's exactly how I feel a lot of the time.

I don't like the resentment. That's what got my M to the poor state that it was in. Years of resentment that MY important emotional needs were not being met led me to (out of stubborn ignorance, pride, and ego) go out of my way to not meet her important emotional needs.

I can't let that happen again. So, when I'm feeling that way I swallow my pride and extend the olive branch every time...even though I'm the one who is still hurt by her past actions.

Which brings up a question I've had on my mind. All these triggers are based upon her PAST actions. There were still a few things that we never discussed fully. I never got how I felt about them off my chest and because of it, they still eat away at me. Her current actions are what they always SHOULD have been. She HAS come around 180 degrees and even though she doesn't know it, she goes out of her way to emulate the same MB principles that I do for her.

So, my question is am I wrong for bringing things up from the past that bother me when I'm triggered? Or, should I just suck it up and get over it and not mention it? I've tried the latter unsuccessfully, so if that's what I should be doing I definitely need some help in how to cope.

(oh...I'm sure you all caught on that I meant PORH up above when I posted PORA)

Shattered,

I don't post often, and am still trying to implement MB principles into my own marriage. However, I had to reply because what you describe is very similar to what my W does too. Can't believe I am questioning her honesty, can't understand why I don't trust her.

Ultimately I think you are on the right track with PORH. This eats at you, like it eats at me. It is really about control. I believe that even though very minor when it happens, our W's are really trying to establish some baseline of credibility that we are not supposed to breach at any time. By avoiding discussion of the issue and resorting to emotional response they are actually exerting control.

This is a barrier to true intimacy, where they would be stripped of any rational defense for ways they hurt us or anyone else. I truly believe my W, and maybe yours, are not comfortable with true intimacy. They hide this by such breakdowns and reactions. Not only do they avoid discussions that are uncomfortable for them, they also try to play the victim card to some extent to get us to back off and as you say "offer the olive branch".

I am working very hard with my W to address this. In my mind it sets a dangerous precedent, and one which over time she can build upon. It is likely what happened previously in my marriage. Give an inch, and over time take a mile type of entitlement. I think you MUST address this when it is at the smallest level - every single time.

You have given her the greatest of gifts by choosing to lead your marriage, stay with her, and try to work things out. She is very lucky to have you and the chance to build true intimacy and a great marriage. It starts with baby steps. Although I don't think our MC did much for us, one thing that was valuable from our sessions was to try to get from eachother the single thing that was hurting / scaring / angering us. Your W's avoidance of your hurts and hers does not help you.

I sounds like you are already trying to be kind and careful when you are honest with her, but you may find an article that Steve Harley wrote about it interesting and helpful. It usually helps to review, even if you are already doing well.

The Policy of Radical Honesty: It�s not a Hammer!
By Steven W. Harley, M.S.
============================================

It�s a sad commentary about our society when we have to have a
rule called �The Policy of Radical Honesty.� It is difficult
to pinpoint, but somewhere along the line being honest became
radical.

I believe that the trend toward dishonesty got its foothold
when experts or advice-givers began selling the idea that what
your spouse doesn�t know won�t hurt them. (In other words,
sometimes it�s acceptable to lie and deceive.) Following with
the added punch that being completely honest will just hurt
your spouse, which should be avoided at any cost. (Again,
meaning that sometimes it�s acceptable to lie and deceive.)
Unfortunately, those ideas were bought lock, stock, and barrel
by most people, leading to the creation of secret second lives
and untold secrets between husbands and wives all in the name
of �protecting my spouse�s feelings.� All of which allow
cancers to form in the marriage.

On the bright side, when couples are introduced to the idea
of radical honesty, most tend to see its value and importance
within the process of creating a mutually enjoyable marriage.
Couples understand that if true connectedness and emotional
intimacy is ever going to be achieved, nothing short of
complete honesty will work. What most couples also understand
is that there is some work involved in getting used to the
true intent behind Radical Honesty.

Contrary to common belief, Radical Honesty does not include
bludgeoning your spouse with your unprocessed thoughts and
feelings. One of the most common misinterpretations of this
policy is believing that it is a license to dump raw opinions
about, then say �Hey, I was just being honest with you.� This
response is the product of a misguided belief that the Policy
of Radical Honesty trumps all other Marriage Builders� concepts
(i.e. Love Busters). There is no policy that truly trumps the
most important tenant of Marriage Builders�: you must protect
your spouse, which includes protection from yourself. All
policies are meant to help you more effectively and
successfully achieve that primary goal.

So, what about being truly honest about your thoughts and
feelings? It almost sounds like I�m contradicting myself by
saying that on one hand you must be completely honest with
your spouse yet on the other hand I�m saying don�t hurt your
spouse. I am a firm believer that you can do both. For
example, if your husband is showing you a tie that he picked
out himself and wanted to know if it matched his suit, what
would you say if you were thinking that it was the most
ridiculous idea to think that the tie he picked out would
even come close to matching not only that suit, but any suit
in his closet? I would suggest that you use a processed
response such as �Honey, I believe that you would look much
better in the tie that the kids gave to you for Father�s Day
because a solid color goes better with that suit and will
make a much better impression in your meeting today.�

Notice that the response I suggested did convey a dislike for
the tie he chose, but was done in a thoughtful and sensitive
way instead of a cruel and insensitive way.

Even in situations when your spouse tells you to be brutally
honest with them instead of candy-coating your thoughts, your
marriage is far better served by understanding the Marriage
Builders� mandate to protect each other and agreeing to never
be brutal about anything.

I�m not necessarily telling you to disregard your spouse�s
request, but I do recommend that a discussion take place
regarding how you want to make every effort not to do anything
that will potentially harm the safety of your marriage.

The bottom line is that it is not ok to commit a Love Buster
under the guise of any of the supporting policies or concepts,
which includes Radical Honesty. Again, this does not mean
that you are not to be completely honest with your spouse, it
means that you must honestly convey your thoughts and feelings
in a controlled, thoughtful, and sensitive way.

End of Article

I hope things continue to improve.

SS

Shattered,

I'm afraid your WW is going to have to live with the consequences of her affair. Hell no, you don't trust her (Dr. H says no one should trust their spouse; we're all vulnerable to an affair given the right conditions..

You can explain to your wife what triggers your suspicious behavior and see if the two of you can come up with some ideas of how to avoid the trigger (think extraordinary precautions).

Regarding past grievances, try at all costs to avoid bringing up past misdeeds. It will only make your WW resentful and defensive and make her believe you want to punish her for the rest of your life. Vent here is you must, or to a friend, but bite your tongue with your WW.

This sucks.

Still here. Still struggling.

What's hardest is that I feel all alone.

I'm trying to follow the guidance I've received here to the letter.

The problem is that by following it, I feel I have no one to talk to and no right to have any feelings. I can't discuss what I'm feeling with my FWW because I'm not allowed to talk about the A with her.

If ever I slip up and let the topic come up, she reminds me that I'm not allowed to talk about it to her. She tells me that she feels I'll never forgive her.

It's not fair. I feel I have to suffer through this alone.

The Five For Fighting song, Superman, pretty much sums up how I feel.

Shattered, are there questions you still have about the affair? I didn't go back to the beginning of your thread - how long have you been in recovery?

What EPs did you put in place?

Your WW should have answered all of your questions about the A. After your questions have been answered you should not bring them up again.

She didn't answer all my questions. I only have my very strong suspicions as to the entirety of what took place. Therein lies the problem. I let her off the hook too soon.

She has complied with all of my EP's. BUT, because of my extremely obsessive nature I have lingering doubts as to all that transpired because we NEVER truly talked about what happened. And now, because of the "stop talking about it" rule, I can never find closure.

It sucks. Too many things still trigger me. I guess I'll have to get over it. I'm just venting and thank you for listening.

You don't know how many times I've wanted to post. It's just that now I spend ALL of my time outside of work giving her UA and have not had the opportunity to post.

It's not obsessive to want to know the truth of your life. Stop thinking that. You should have gone over every detail of the A that you needed to hear. You let your WW off the hook on this, to the detriment of your marriage.

I don't get the 'no talking rule' - where did that come from?

You and your WW are not doing your M any favors by sweeping this under the rug. I'm not sure what I'm missing. I'll go back and read your thread in case I've missed anything. I read it originally, but it's been a while.