Marriage Builders
Posted By: MikeSmile Deception - 05/20/11 02:01 PM
My wife of 15 years has been in an affair for the last 7 with a very close family friend. It came out on Mother's Day last week. As everyone thinks their affair story is unique, Im not going to say my situation is brand new. We met him and his wife about 10 years ago and right away my wife and he had a very cozy, close relationship. They had similar interests such as shopping, drinking wine, and other things I always chalked up to him being very feminine in nature. Which led me to believe he was a harmless, latent homesexual and no challenge to my marriage. I was wrong.

After our 2nd child, my wife went from part time job to part time job and eventually he offered her a part time job to help him in his office. His business was booming and actually he really didnt need any help. It was a business that ran on its own and in retrospect she did nothing but, well, him. Although she went willingly, it was a way for him to get her close and to make his moves. After 3-4 years of working alone in a small office, he and his wife decided for some reason to go thru surrogacy to have their first child at 40 years old. After the baby was born, my wife moved from doing nothing in his office to accepting a nanny job in his house as his wife continued to work after the baby came. So, there you have it. Is there anyone dumber than I? I let 2 attractive people with a palpable attraction to each, with similar interests, with his deep pockets, nice car, and clothes spend the hours of 10am-2pm together for 7 years. As much as my psychologist tells me and my amateur psychologists tell me (my wife�s friend and husband who are amazing and completely impartial and maybe saved me from doing harm to myself) STOP TAKING THE BLAME.

Another interesting tidbit was he and his wife literally spent 2 or 3 Sundays a month having dinner in my house over this whole period. Among the dozens of issues Im confronting is this deception she managed all these years. I told her the other day if she and he came to me after 6 months or 1 year and said we are couple, we love each other, we want to be together, it would have been sad and made me angry, but it would have spared today�s anxiety and general malaise Im under. It would have saved my kids from been screwed up by the revelation.

My sexual relationship with my wife over the past 7 years can best be described as a 2 on a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being completely satisfying. I have thought about walking out on more than one occasion for this one issue. I chalked it up to her not being sexual in nature and we would grow this aspect of our life. I do not believe she turned into a porn star with this guy. Why is the nature of the sex they had something I need details about? Is it important if certain, particular things were done? Suffice to say, they got naked, they kissed, and did what people do. I cant shake the fact she did this while I complained heavily of the lack of our physical ness.

We are now almost 2 weeks into recovery. Ive taken the advice to think of me first. I got myself my first complete checkup in 10 years. Im seeing a psychologist to get me through some of the issues above. My children are in therapy as well.

My wife has been incredible. I can only imagine the pressure on her. We have been very close and not just in bed. We speak a lot more than we have in the recent past. She is in therapy and I think is in better shape than I am. Her story and I truly have accepted it as truth is this: we were in financial bad shape after a number of years of me not earning what I once did. She was attracted to this guy who had lots of nice things and he took care of her with money and the attention I didn�t give enough of. I think after one his nice lunches he bought her, he made the move and she said �what the hell?, just once and no one will know�. Once turned into�who knows how many? It became a routine. It became just something they did every so often and since they were in my home each week for Sunday dinner and I was none the wiser, why screw up something good? The best way I can describe is they were Best Friends with Benefits. And she agrees this is the best way to think of it. Towards the latter 4 years, my wife�s attitude toward our usual Sunday dinner changed, she no longer really wanted them there except my kids really loved them coming especially when they had their baby. She explains the routine and the fact he dangled a few hundred bucks over her head for sexual favors made her do things, in hindsight, she finds unbelievable. Her words: she prostituted herself to him.

Now, Im stuck holding the bag of her affair. Im stuck reconciling how she sat next me at our dinner table while during that afternoon she was on her back laying with another guy. Im stuck figuring how to trust a woman capable of such a lie. Im stuck trying to convince myself that my children�s well being is worth me eating [censored] for the foreseeable future. I cannot trust her to be a good mom 100% of the time.

Yes, we changed our phone numbers and cut all contact in every manner with them. My kids will eventually get over not seeing that baby who they adored. As probably predictable, my wife is trying to crunch 7 years of a dismal sex life with me into a monumental stretch of love making in the last weeks. She takes my fury when I go through my bad thoughts. She knows how much she hurt me. She wants me to stay.
Posted By: bitbucket Re: Deception - 05/20/11 02:35 PM
Have you told OMW everything? If your WW says she told OMW, or WW says the OM told OMW everything, it's probably a lie. If you haven't told OMW everything you need to do so she can have the truth about her life.

How old are your children? Are they young enough that they might not be yours?

Have you and your WW gotten STD testing?

Are you able to counsel with the Harleys?
Posted By: My4Loves Re: Deception - 05/20/11 02:37 PM
Welcome to Marriage Builders!

I have learned with my experience on this thread and reading Surviving an Affair, you are going to need to take extreme precautions in order to begin building trust.

Your wife will need to follow strict boundaries set by you in order for you to start feeling safe.

My first suggestion is to sit down and make a list of you will need your wife to do in order for you to begin feeling safe.

Second, read SAA as soon as possible. It will help you organize a plan of action that will need to be implemented immediately.

The vets will be here soon to give you their great advice. You need to prepare yourself for everything.

Cheers Tough~
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 05/20/11 02:56 PM
Welcome, Mike. I'm sorry you had to find us under these circumstances. frown

Have you exposed this affair to OM's wife?
Posted By: pokerface Re: Deception - 05/20/11 04:34 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
Another interesting tidbit was he and his wife literally spent 2 or 3 Sundays a month having dinner in my house over this whole period. Among the dozens of issues Im confronting is this deception she managed all these years. I told her the other day if she and he came to me after 6 months or 1 year and said we are couple, we love each other, we want to be together, it would have been sad and made me angry, but it would have spared today�s anxiety and general malaise Im under. It would have saved my kids from been screwed up by the revelation.

MikeSmile,

Your story touches me because I have been there myself. I DID find out after 1 year and I can tell you that it ripped me to the core. The fact that they were "capable" of the lie (regardless of the time period) is what is killing you. I think it just gets easier to carry on the lies over time.

The issue with the 7 years is how strong is the emotional bond and can she break it?

Keep reading and posting here. It is too early to make any decisions just yet.
Posted By: Tanam Re: Deception - 05/20/11 05:14 PM
That could be my story too, it's a double whammy isn't it, you loose a friend as well, in fact a raft of friends.

Hang on in there, decide not to make any decisions for 3 months, breathe in and out as necessary.

Lots of how and why questions and most don't have any good answers. Not to mention how dare my WH give the skank any of our money, but that was and this is.

(((((Mike))))
Posted By: Gamma Re: Deception - 05/20/11 05:19 PM
Mike,

Is there anyone dumber than I? I let 2 attractive people with a palpable attraction to each

That is not dumb that is called TRUST and it is not a mistake on your part, but a virtue of yours. That your W and this OM abused that trust is contemptible.

I did a similar thing with OM2, whos GF thought OM2 and W were a pair, But I had it on OM2s authority that his GF was stupid! Many other people here had it going on just under their nose as well.

W, OM2 and I went out together, and my W had a regular lunches with him. After I found out about the affair I allowed them to continue to work together.

One element at work I think is that my W wanted to legitimize the A by making us an open threesome, just without the openness.

From your description of this guy he sounds like a sexually adventurerous person who may be dabbling in many different ways, please get yourself tested for STDs. You may need DNA testing for your children.

God Bless

Gamma
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: Deception - 05/20/11 05:29 PM
As a BH I know the Anger and am personally familiar with many of you and your WWs issues.
Protect your self with her having stellar EPs in place. Follow SAA to the letter. Make sure she's on board with MB plan and dont let resentment ruin an otherwise great Recovery. If she will abide by POJA, PORH and you both work to meet each others top EN,s> Then in time you will become a stronger family for it.
It sounds as if she is trying and that you do love her. Lay down the plan and follow it.
Her EP's and your expectations should be no less than her not being friends with anyone of the Op-Sex other than you ever again. Open and honesty is a love buster and a need that Im sure ranks up there right now as one of the tops. The only thing thats going to heal you is her heavy lifting. But quit the wrath thing as you will drive her away with it. Angry Outbursts wont help if your having them?
It a tough road and M takes plans and rules. Dr H lays it all out for you.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 05/20/11 05:51 PM
What specific question are you interested in having answered?
Posted By: SidneyT Re: Deception - 05/20/11 06:03 PM
How did you find out about the affair?

How are you ensuring that she is having absolutely zero contact with OM? After a 7 year affair it would be very rare to expect she's really cut out complete contact with him since D day. Are you checking her phone and her whereabouts?

You say you're all in therapy, but are you and your wife planning to apply MB principles toward your healing and recovery?
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/21/11 03:52 AM
Thanks all. Im new and many of these terms (OM, MB, EA, etc.) are unknown to me. But Im getting the gist.

I am 100% sure she is not in contact with the other guy. She didnt have that big of interest in being with him when they were together from what it sounds like. As I see it and said it above, this was a relationship of convenience for both. She was able to earn a few bucks and he got his jollies for cheap. Yes, this make my wife a prostitute, a fact she admitted and is going to be forever trying to live with.

Can someone tell me why knowing explicit details of encounters is important to me? I know there was oral on him and intercourse, but what else? Im not sure this is the proper forum for where my line of concern is going, but I want the dirty details. I want to know how easy she made it for him. I want to know how often there was oral and/or intercourse.

I have to live the rest of my life knowing that she gave her body to another man. OK. I get it. But there is this mystery about the nature of the sex that stills gets me. She finds the whole experience degrading and extremely upsetting so when I ask, I get silence. So, in effort to keep recovery going I stop the line of questioning.

Someone asked how I found out: Perhaps classic, mostly pathetic. On Mother's Day, his wife called my house looking for me frantically. I had my mother, grandmother, and brothers over. My daughter answered the phone put me on another phone and didnt hang up. So, that day, my daughter and I learned that her husband has 15 videos of my wife giving him a blowjob on his cell phone. (He did this completely without my wife knowing, this is confirmed. And, he had another dozen videos of a different girl blowing him.)

So, this is the cross I bear.
Posted By: TheObserverX Re: Deception - 05/21/11 08:55 AM
The reasons you want sexual details is because you want to know how far she went for him as a guy I know why or at least to me.
It's all down to if she was willing to do so and so acts for him but not for me before the affair or even now when she's trying to overly please me until she thinks I have "gotten over it" then how can I know she is mine again? You feel the need to match the sexual acts she allowed him to do if that makes sense one up it even.

To anyone that doesn't understand my reply. Regardless of the whole "well he was offering large amounts of money BS" Imagine your wife refused to have anal with you and specifically said she found it dirty. You'd respect it right.

Then some months/yrs later she has an affair one of the "acts" they do is anal. As a guy despite the most obvious betrayal of cheating I'd feel horribly knowing she was willing at the drop of a hat to do that with him.
Something I had been denied even if influenced it would show in our relationship even before she looked elsewhere she was not willing to do that with me but with this guys... while I was her husband.

(Another example for others to understand would be having a gf that does not want to get married says she doesn't believe in it. You break up some time after.. she meets a new guy and after 1-2yrs They are apparently getting married.

The pain is not that you both broke up but that you basically were not good enough not prime/alpha enough and she knew it from day 1 but tried to make things work.)

Is that what bothers you? Personally if you ask me she withheld sex from you while with this other guy in most tales I read the wife/gf would still have sex with the husband/bf if she gave a damn this has been a common thing said by cheating women.
The ones more heavily invested in the other man withheld sex from their partners because they felt their bodies belonged to the other man.

From what you mentioned .. I think the only reason why she's sucking up not is so she doesn't lose everything. She is the worst kind of snake if you ask me and she will F up again.

I bet after 2-3 months the sex will drop again after she thinks things are fine. I know some people will disagree but if she truly is wanting you now she is going to let you do ANYTHING in the bedroom (within safety limits) it's what she should do tactically. If she's still withholding then you know what to do.


All in all though if this was me.... 7 yrs.... I'd divorce. Your children will understand and you need to find a new woman, be wary of ANY male in the future we're dogs you know this.
Posted By: prettypearl Re: Deception - 05/21/11 10:16 AM
Don't know where you've bobbed up from ObserverX but your comment that "we're dogs" is highly offensive and insulting. I don''t know where you hang out to form such opinions but they don't relate to the decent and intelligent men on this site.
Posted By: Kenmoore14217 Re: Deception - 05/21/11 10:55 AM
I wrote a post yesterday that was laden with anger and hate but for the Grace of God, it didn�t go through.

I have this image of the OM sitting in your home with a sense of entitlement knowing that he is copulating with both adult women. I can�t get this image out of my head so therefore I can�t imagine what torment you are going through yourself.

The rage I feel for your situation would drive me to disfigure him permanently but I am reminded that this situation required TWO, not just one.

But that�s my problem not yours. You seem adult and rational over this whole betrayal and all I can do is sit back here on my computer in awe of your inner strengths.

I apologize for my rant on your thread.
God Bless You
Posted By: chickadee1 Re: Deception - 05/21/11 11:27 AM
mike

I am somewhat new here so all i can offer you is small tidbits. I agree with you feelings of "Can someone tell me why knowing explicit details of encounters is important to me? " i found out the details, which right now is not making me feel better and triggering me more. you may not be to that step yet.

i did have a lot of false starts (i learned about many A that my H had) to the program, and now i am at the begining again sort of. but after the 2nd group of lies, we began working hard on the program together. writing down our need and discussing them. it works, when you meet your wifes needs she will respond, when she meets your you will, its so simple. she need to make you feel protected and safe, hard for a man.

did you get the book SAA, i suggest you get the book SAA, or start by reading the material here. give them to your wife. you both have to be committed you cant do it alone.

your road may get bumpier and there may me more to tell on her part, but its part of the process. I think you need to work on meeting each others needs, the street goes 2 ways. i can say the pain does lessen each day, not saying it goes away.

vent here, not to your wife. Listen to the VETS here they get it. there are also many men here that are in similar situations that are probably the most dedicated caring people i have seen.

sorry you got some interesting thoughts earlier, dont disappear.
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: Deception - 05/21/11 12:41 PM
I can assure you Im no DOG, speak for yourself THEOBX. Which you are obviously doing.
Your comments show pain and resentment. Your children would understand? OK whatever. Go back to a skank board and dwell with the Dogs. My children dont understand. All they know is that they love there parents and they rely on US. You have a renters mentality, so go rent.
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: Deception - 05/21/11 02:32 PM
Mike, if you can stay M'd to a WW that took the betrayal to that level, then you're a much better man than I am. Hopefully, once you get over the "damage control" phase (it sounds like you might be still it, but nearing the end), the resentment doesn't eat you alive.

Posted By: reading Re: Deception - 05/21/11 02:50 PM
My WH's betrayel of me would be up for competition of the stuff you are dealing with.

The revelation of the infidelity is still so new to you.

Fair warning, my fellow betrayed one:

You should be suspicious that it has gone way further underground despite the making up for lost time sex. She might be very well doing that cause

1. you know about the infidelity and its a weight off her -guilt ridden that you were oblivious that she was betraying you- back
2. she is trying to give it to you to throw you off her trail

Just saying.

This is going to be a way longer drawn out haul than you think. Your love and loyalty to her will be challenged in the years ahead.

Long time betrayel is yet another nuance of deep brain warping on a waywards part.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/21/11 04:21 PM
Look, I hold all the cards right now and for all long I want them. I have only 2 things I care about at this moment: my 2 kids. Me leaving would not do them any good and Im not going to [censored] them up more than their mother did. She knows she hurt them, me, and will spend her days making amends.

Truth is, I got 9 short years until Jr is off to college, then Im free to stay, go, divorce, what ever. Thats a commitment to our kids I made, she dropped the ball, and needs to get herself together.

Ive been asking and she gave some basic percentages of a certain sex act to another and it didnt make me happy or mad. Just really helped me close little pockets of things I want to know. She was really uncomfortable telling me and I had to tell her it going to help me move forward.

So, Im enjoying a new found partner in my wife of 15 yrs. I know its just 2 weeks from finding out, I still will have ups and downs, I will send her some of the most aweful texts, and demand things in bed Id never dare before. Ive proposed things and nothing is met with a no. Im going to ride this train while is here because I, as the man and the betrayed, can leave any time I want.

This may be going in a different direction but she more or less introduced a third party to out bedroom. So I asked her to get someone for me.

Someone said it above: its about equalling it out. Making it even.

I cant hurt my kids by leaving them (with her alone). My ego doesnt exist basically. I dont know.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/21/11 04:41 PM
The types of things I suggested Id like to do were met with OK every time. So, the inner battle I have is that this woman who now is the sexual workhouse I dreamed of and willing and ready to satisfy my wildest ideas, am I taking advantage of a broken woman? Should I care? Do I show respect because some of what I proposing may be construed by some as degrading?

I answer with questions: Did she give one damn about me at any point when she was with him? Did she keep me incredibly lonely for longs periods of time? Did she disrespect our home for years?

Some cynical guy above says I have to watch out for her and I will, but this was a union of 2 brought together under some of the most unique circumstances. Really it was like me and his wife almost pushed them together. Stupid. Really. So, she doenst go to bars and clubs, she reported to an office where he was. Bingo bango. I obviously will be a skosh smarter and less trustful of her but the sheer embarassmnet she is living with makes her going back to him or anyone else very remote. Shes not a serial adulterer, this is her 3rd sex partner, not a seasoned pro in the sack. But I will be weary.

I do love her, just mad as hell at her.
Posted By: Kenmoore14217 Re: Deception - 05/21/11 05:25 PM
Did she give one damn about me at any point when she was with him?

[color:#FF0000]NO!![/color]!!!


Did she keep me incredibly lonely for longs periods of time?

[color:#FF0000]YES!!!![/color]!!!

Did she disrespect our home for years?

[color:#FF0000]YES!!!![/color]!!!
Posted By: Kenmoore14217 Re: Deception - 05/21/11 05:26 PM
oops!!
Posted By: wulffpack_girl Re: Deception - 05/21/11 05:58 PM
Mike, I'm a FWW. My A (EA turned PA) lasted less than a year, and I trickle-truthed my H for four months after he found out and the A ended. My A wasn't long-term like your W, nor was it with anyone my H knew, but that doesn't make it any easier to overcome the breach of my H's trust in me.

Originally Posted by MikeSmile
Im stuck figuring how to trust a woman capable of such a lie. Im stuck trying to convince myself that my children�s well being is worth me eating [censored] for the foreseeable future. I cannot trust her to be a good mom 100% of the time.

If you've read Dr. H's books and the articles on this site, you will discover that he actually says we should not trust our spouses.

Quote
One topic is loss of trust. How can a spouse ever trust an unfaithful partner again? My answer is that the spouse should never have been trusted in the first place. I shouldn't be trusted by my wife, and I shouldn't trust her. The fact is that we are all wired for infidelity, and under certain conditions, we'll all do it. The way to protect your marriage from something that has been common to man (and women) for thousands of years is to recognize the threat, and do something to prevent it from happening.

Read the article here.

Originally Posted by MikeSmile
Look, I hold all the cards right now and for all long I want them. I have only 2 things I care about at this moment: my 2 kids. Me leaving would not do them any good and Im not going to f*** them up more than their mother did. She knows she hurt them, me, and will spend her days making amends.

If she is willing to make amends, you will also have to be willing to accept the deposits she will try to make in your LB$ - again, I am not a BS, but from experience it has been difficult for me, as a FWW, to make deposits in my H's LB$ and overcome the resentment he feels towards me. If your goal is to remain married, you must build a better M than you had pre-A. This means that you will have to begin to meet your WW's most important EN's to build the "in-love" feelings in her. If she "gets it," and is truly repentant, she'll do everything that she can to show you that. The MB path to recovery is for both of you to meet each others' needs and build a new, romantic M...even then, Dr. H says R can take 2-5 years.

Originally Posted by MikeSmile
Truth is, I got 9 short years until Jr is off to college, then Im free to stay, go, divorce, what ever. Thats a commitment to our kids I made, she dropped the ball, and needs to get herself together.

And that is your choice, and there is not a soul on this boards who would argue with you on that. Me personally, I truly believe the best thing for your children is to live together under one roof with their mother and their father, who are in love with each other. That's what I have committed to in my heart. That may not mean a hill of beans to the man I betrayed, but I can't control him. I can only control me. From reading others' posts on this board, who have gone through their parents' divorces later in life, it does not seem to really get any easier for them. But, by the same token, it is not easy for a child to live in a house where there is no love between their parents.

Originally Posted by MikeSmile
This may be going in a different direction but she more or less introduced a third party to out bedroom. So I asked her to get someone for me.

Someone said it above: its about equalling it out. Making it even.

How is this going to make it better? I know you have a lot to resent, but having a revenge affair (RA) is not going to "even things out." There are posters on this board who are in M's where the BS had a RA, and it only compounds the problem. Your WW's actions were morally bankrupt. Having an RA brings you down to that level. You are better than that.

Neither you nor the OMW pushed them together. They made deliberate choices to do what they did. You are not to blame for their A. You are 50% responsible for the state of your M pre-A, and post-A, but you are NOT in any way responsible for her choices. You could not - and can not - control her, any more than she can control you.

Your best chance at R is ensuring that the A is well and truly dead, ensuring that your WW puts in place rock-solid EP's, and you snoop and verify that NC is firmly in place.

And OBX?

Originally Posted by TheObserverX
From what you mentioned .. I think the only reason why she's sucking up not is so she doesn't lose everything. She is the worst kind of snake if you ask me and she will F up again.

Sure. She might F up again. The best way to prevent this is to follow the MB plan and build a passionate, romantic M where both parties are having their most important EN's met.

And I am sure a lot of people would look at what I am doing and say I'm just sucking up so I don't lose "everything". That's their opinion. What is "everything"? Material possessions? The house? A second income?

That kind of cr@p doesn't matter. A house is a house. I have a great house. Beautiful. Sits on a big lot in the country. And I'm also all alone in it right now b/c my H is gone and he's got the kids this weekend. It didn't take long to realize that this house is not a home without H. Materially, my life changed very little when H moved out. If I was just in it for the "stuff," I could just stop fighting.

Yes, this was a long-term, entangled A which comes with some additional issues for Mike to deal with. Seven years is a long time...but A's are evil no matter how long the duration. All active waywards are snakes.

Maybe I have a tendency to be Pollyanna and put on my rose-colored glasses at times...but MB can give Mike a plan to restore his M, if it is his choice to do so.

And all men are not "dogs." I would never consider my BH that. That is a false generalization and it's downright inflammatory.

Posted By: TheObserverX Re: Deception - 05/21/11 06:19 PM
I've obviously caused offense BUT I actually meant we "men" are dogs in the mentality sense. Alpha , Beta etc.

The OP felt threatened that an Alpha male basically had control of his wife for all those years and he didn't even have a clue. If not for the OM's wife this would still be going on period. Nobody can "make" you do something you do not want to do. From what he told us there was never any indication this arrangement was going to stop ever had HE not been caught.

The OP is a Beta male, his recent actions in the confirmation of having a threesome is now his way of asserting that he is alpha. If she wanted an alpha he will make himself one sexually. I don't deny your love for your wife but others seem to be ignoring the other things you say. You are now doing a lot of things our of revenge and just like I mentioned in my post you are now making sure you get everything sexually you can.

You have also hinted (did you even realise) that it's quite possible after the kids are in/out of college if the pain is still there you will leave your wife. I'm sorry I don't mean to be blunt your situation is not that unique other then she actually managed to put the veil over your eyes for 7 YEARS over 4000 days.

WulfPack I .. feel your remorse in your comment and I'm sorry you lost a lot but it is the consequence of what you did.

OP you can demand more details, you can make all the sexual requests you like but you will never understand. You wont forget it doesn't happen. Yes you can forgive but also this betrayal will come up in arguments every now and then for the rest of your life. Period.

I'm used to other forums but I understand this is (as the domain is written) for essentially saving marriages but as others have stated children can tell if their parents are in a loveless marriage or when something is off in this case one of the children already knows or all?

I really do hope this reconciliation goes well but I think the biggest mistake you just made (has it happened) is now inviting a 3rd person for a romp. You've just opened up a new can of worms, it's not about getting even it's about getting back on course and that is not done with just sexual conquests.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 05/21/11 07:22 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
Thanks all. Im new and many of these terms (OM, MB, EA, etc.) are unknown to me. But Im getting the gist.

Hi Mike, Sorry you're here with us Bro. OM=other man, EA=emotional affair, MB= Marriage builders



I am 100% sure she is not in contact with the other guy. She didnt have that big of interest in being with him when they were together from what it sounds like. As I see it and said it above, this was a relationship of convenience for both. She was able to earn a few bucks and he got his jollies for cheap. Yes, this make my wife a prostitute, a fact she admitted and is going to be forever trying to live with.


Mike, my former wayward wife FWW's A's (affairs) Were not about "love". They were about her having some extremely unfulfilled emotional needs that she carried over from childhood that she never told me about. I was not able to fulfill them. The result was that she formed poor boundaries for herself and when the OM's came along, they were able to breach her defenses and have them filled. In a sense, it is a relationship of convenience because it is extremely selfish. It is unloving to you, but also to the affair partner. It is a take/take relationship. If he was filling some emotional needs you weren't, then she was no doubt willing to give him what he wanted in exchange for them.



Can someone tell me why knowing explicit details of encounters is important to me? I know there was oral on him and intercourse, but what else? Im not sure this is the proper forum for where my line of concern is going, but I want the dirty details. I want to know how easy she made it for him. I want to know how often there was oral and/or intercourse.


Um.. yeah. I have more than an idea. I asked for times, positions, I asked for facial expressions, words spoken, hand and body positions... Be careful what you ask for... I got all my answers. I both appreciate knowing and regret having to live with the details of it in my head the rest of my life. Heck, I even had her draw pictures at one point... (Don't do that). The fact is, she may have done more with him than for you, because there is a selfish desperation to have certain emotional needs met. Needs you may not be aware of as of yet.

They are important (or were to me), because we are afraid. afraid of being compared, of not measuring up. We are afraid that there was something better that the other guy was doing that we weren't. The truth is, the guy could've been a rock star in bed, but who cares? He is *not* you. You also want to see just how much was given up by her for someone else. Someone that as time goes on, you will realize she never really knew. You know why? Because the whole relationship they had is based on lies.



I have to live the rest of my life knowing that she gave her body to another man. OK. I get it. But there is this mystery about the nature of the sex that stills gets me. She finds the whole experience degrading and extremely upsetting so when I ask, I get silence. So, in effort to keep recovery going I stop the line of questioning.

Here's my suggestion. If it is killing you and you absolutely have to know (and be prepared, there is consequences to knowing that you will not be prepared for emotionally, get out a pen and paper... Write your questions down. Every single one of them. Sit down with her and TALK. Ask her the questions with the promise that you are moving FORWARD from there. Have her answer every detail she can to the best of her knowledge. Write down her answers. It may be embarrassing, but it is following the policy of openness and honesty which your marriage cannot survive without. It will also bring you closer together if you handle this right. Your lives will be bare before each other.

If she is too embarrassed... Have her write her answers down for you and then you can write her follow up questions. Do it with the idea of healing and moving forward in mind. Keep that your focus.



Someone asked how I found out: Perhaps classic, mostly pathetic. On Mother's Day, his wife called my house looking for me frantically. I had my mother, grandmother, and brothers over. My daughter answered the phone put me on another phone and didnt hang up. So, that day, my daughter and I learned that her husband has 15 videos of my wife giving him a blowjob on his cell phone. (He did this completely without my wife knowing, this is confirmed. And, he had another dozen videos of a different girl blowing him.)

So, this is the cross I bear.

I am sorry for this. It serves to show what kind of a non-man he is. have your wife get checked for std's by a doc asap if you haven't already. If he's playing with more than one woman, your health may be in danger. Yes, it is a cross to bear, but bearing one another's burdens is what marriage is all about. When one is weak the other is strong, when one falls, the other stoops to pick them up. You *can* make this work. Read the materials here and use them. They are excellent.


CV
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 05/21/11 07:46 PM
Originally Posted by TheObserverX
I've obviously caused offense BUT I actually meant we "men" are dogs in the mentality sense. Alpha , Beta etc.

The OP felt threatened that an Alpha male basically had control of his wife for all those years and he didn't even have a clue. If not for the OM's wife this would still be going on period. Nobody can "make" you do something you do not want to do. From what he told us there was never any indication this arrangement was going to stop ever had HE not been caught.

PPfthhhbt! Psycho-babble. People can and do make other people do things all the time. Bust an affair wide open and it usually dies. There was no indication my FWW was going to stop. I stopped it and saved her life. I laid out my terms in very clear conditions when I met with my W, the OM and his W the morning after I found out. Could OM have continued with my wife? Most certainly, but there are always consequences to actions and I was very clear if he wanted my wife, they would be free to go.... After I made him a eunuch. And.. it sounds like OM's wife was the alpha male in their marriage. She blew it wide open.


<<The OP is a Beta male, his recent actions in the confirmation of having a threesome is now his way of asserting that he is alpha. If she wanted an alpha he will make himself one sexually. I don't deny your love for your wife but others seem to be ignoring the other things you say. You are now doing a lot of things our of revenge and just like I mentioned in my post you are now making sure you get everything sexually you can.>>>

No. This is the OM pushing the limits as most sexual predators do. it is not an alpha thing, it is predatory. He pushes the limits, entrenches the wife in more and more until she feels too trapped to ask for help and free herself from the relationship.


You have also hinted (did you even realise) that it's quite possible after the kids are in/out of college if the pain is still there you will leave your wife. I'm sorry I don't mean to be blunt your situation is not that unique other then she actually managed to put the veil over your eyes for 7 YEARS over 4000 days.

Have you considered that when the kids are in college is they follow a solid recovery plan that they might have a better marriage than ever? Yes, she managed to pull the wool over his eyes, but they have an opportunity to be open and honest now. To take those years of lies and deciet and turn them into a learning experience where they can live happily together in a relationship that is trusting and fulfilling. I have a friend my wife and I counselled that was a minister. His wife had began an affair on him with a man she met while they were dating. The affair lasted from 2 years prior to their marriage through the first 6 years. They had never know a time where she wasn't cheating. Now, 2 years later, they have a healthy loving marriage that trust is being restored in.


WulfPack I .. feel your remorse in your comment and I'm sorry you lost a lot but it is the consequence of what you did.

Thank you Captain Obvious. WPG knows this. Probably better than most here. While some things are true, they don't always need to be said. That said, she did not lose. Not completely. I would encourage you to read her threads. here is a woman who has changed. for the better. She has taken what she was, obliterated it, and replaced it with something of value. She has (on many ways, like my own wife) become a pearl.


OP you can demand more details, you can make all the sexual requests you like but you will never understand. You wont forget it doesn't happen. Yes you can forgive but also this betrayal will come up in arguments every now and then for the rest of your life. Period.

Flibberty jibbet. As I sit here writing, I realize that the pain (three years later) has diminished immensely. I do not remember many of the details shared unless I obsess. I am able to discuss things and even argue without bringing up her past. Brother, you sound like i man who has not healed. Period .


CV
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 05/21/11 08:01 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
The types of things I suggested Id like to do were met with OK every time. So, the inner battle I have is that this woman who now is the sexual workhouse I dreamed of and willing and ready to satisfy my wildest ideas, am I taking advantage of a broken woman? Should I care? Do I show respect because some of what I proposing may be construed by some as degrading?

This sounds extremely selfish. I guess the answer depends on the kind of man you want to be. Do you want to be like that other man? She's decided to stick it out with you, right? Has she made a choice? Has she written him a no contact letter (you really should do that first). Have you considered the long-term ramifications of what you are asking/forcing? That she may grow to resent you? That what you are doing is not loving and be counter-productive in causing her to stop this kind of behavior?

Let me ask you this... Would you use someone else's wife like this? Why or why not? If not, why would you treat your own wife that way?

Respect is a two way street. If you want to be respected, it has to be shown as well. If she is a broken woman and you are taking advantage, isn't that abuse?

It all goes back to the kind of man you want to be. So.. What kind of man do you want to be? How do you want your kids to know you? As the man who took the high road, or the one who took the easy route?




I answer with questions: Did she give one damn about me at any point when she was with him? Did she keep me incredibly lonely for longs periods of time? Did she disrespect our home for years?

No. She didn't, but love does not repay evil for evil


Some cynical guy above says I have to watch out for her and I will, but this was a union of 2 brought together under some of the most unique circumstances. Really it was like me and his wife almost pushed them together. Stupid. Really. So, she doenst go to bars and clubs, she reported to an office where he was. Bingo bango. I obviously will be a skosh smarter and less trustful of her but the sheer embarassmnet she is living with makes her going back to him or anyone else very remote. Shes not a serial adulterer, this is her 3rd sex partner, not a seasoned pro in the sack. But I will be weary.

I do love her, just mad as hell at her.

Totally understandable. Resentment is normal at this stage. So is anger. Read here for overcoming anger and resnetment: restoring your marrriage

Posted By: Gamma Re: Deception - 05/21/11 08:49 PM
Mike,

Can someone tell me why knowing explicit details of encounters is important to me?

If it will kill you in the future not knowing then get them NOW!

My W claims to have forgotten alot, and it may be true or it may be just more deception. However the problem is I can't tell the difference.

Another reason is honesty, if she is holding ANYTHING back it is keeping secrets from you. And you can no longer have that kind of relationship. Her willingness to tell your the embarrising details is a measure of her honesty.

Oh and again get her tested for STDs.

God Bless
Gamma

Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/22/11 12:21 AM
Thanks all. Reading these posts almost makes me want to skip my psychologist appt tomorrow morn.

Celticvoyager, you are by far the most dead on with your analysis and I appreciate the time it took to enter it. Your assessment of the relationship was perfect, almost eerily so. It was about domination and control. Him over her. It was about complacency. Hers.

As I have been open to a fault with my wife, Im going to review your entry with her. I told her about this site and how its has the potential to motivate and really get me incensed.

I thank you for what you wrote because some of the stuff written by jilted husbands has me looking for my suitcase and yellow pages for lawyers. Your entry really dug deep into what Im feeling and that is I want to learn every bit of what went on and then let me decide what my next step is.

Your points about knowing the horny details is great. The approach youre suggesting is the way Ill go. She did give up some detail this morning and I really felt a relief of some kind. Didnt make me happy, just helped me over one of those bumps in the road we face everyday.

Please continue with the therapy, its awesome.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/22/11 12:27 AM
Thanks. My wife is playing that I forgot most of the stuff routine too. She is very embarassed. This was not an affair of the heart, no love. It was about a transaction. In its most basic this guy used my wife for his masterbation. Thats a sentence i will be dealing with for many, many years and may be the reason I leave, if I do. Otherwise, as I am doing now, I can be with my wife in all respects but especailly emotionally to build her self confidence and esteem. To let her know she should want more than that. And, to let her know Im here when she feels like she going to fall.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 05/22/11 01:46 AM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
Thanks. My wife is playing that I forgot most of the stuff routine too. She is very embarassed. This was not an affair of the heart, no love. It was about a transaction. In its most basic this guy used my wife for his masterbation. Thats a sentence i will be dealing with for many, many years and may be the reason I leave, if I do. Otherwise, as I am doing now, I can be with my wife in all respects but especailly emotionally to build her self confidence and esteem. To let her know she should want more than that. And, to let her know Im here when she feels like she going to fall.

Mike,

Also remember that 7 years is a LOT to remember. She might be able to remember quite a bit, but she realistically won't remember every detail of the past 7 years.

One thing you also want to work on along with building confidence and self esteem is building boundaries. This will prevent future indiscretion. Go to the main site and find the Emotional Needs questionnaire... Fill them out. Determine what your and her most important needs are and work towards meeting them.

Have you exposed the affair to everyone you know yet? This *is* one of the key elements to insuring it does not happen again. It seems counter-productive, but really helps stop any future failure.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 05/22/11 03:11 AM
An elderly man walked into a police station, explaining that he'd been abducted by three breathtaking stewardesses, and used sexually for three days. On being asked when this happened , the oldtimer said 43 years ago. The desk sergeant said, "Why would you wait 43 years to make a complaint?" The oldtimer said, "I ain't complaining, I'm bragging."

Yesterday afternoon I asked what exactly you wanted from us here. Today we get:

I will send her some of the most aweful texts, and demand things in bed Id never dare before. Ive proposed things and nothing is met with a no. Im going to ride this train while is here because I, as the man and the betrayed, can leave any time I want. This may be going in a different direction but she more or less introduced a third party to out bedroom. So I asked her to get someone for me.

So now I know. You want an audience for your bragging.

You'll excuse me if I leave before the next act.
Posted By: Grace4me Re: Deception - 05/22/11 04:10 AM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
This may be going in a different direction but she more or less introduced a third party to out bedroom. So I asked her to get someone for me.

Someone said it above: its about equalling it out. Making it even.

You know, equality is a funny thing... it's something we want when we feel we are missing out on something good....Timmy got 2 cookies and I only got one! BUT if Timmy got 2 spankings and I only got one, now that's a different story. That's when I don't want to be equal.

Do you think that what your WW got was something good? or that where she has ended up is a worthy goal for yourself? Don't lower yourself to where she's ended up, but rather raise her up to where you are. Let the place of equality be a place that brings honor to both of you.

As a FWW, I can tell you that the more my H showed me that I was a person of value, the more I wanted to prove him right. His kindness led me to real change. I wanted to become a wife he could be proud of and our romantic life has become new and exciting, not because I owe him something but because I want to please him out of love and respect.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/22/11 04:13 AM
NeverGuessed, I wont miss you.

Celt: Yes, our parents and siblings know of all.

Its absolutely incredible the complete mood changes I go through on a daily basis. Schizo stuff. At one time Im looking forward for plans to spend forever with her. 2 hrs later Im having an anxiety attack and looking for my meds. And having little ability to see how I can actually forgive. Then all of the other stuff I rambled off on these pages go flying thru my head. Its so much to think about. I really didnt ask for this. For much of today, I felt dead inside. I didnt ask for this.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 05/22/11 04:33 AM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
Celt: Yes, our parents and siblings know of all.

Its absolutely incredible the complete mood changes I go through on a daily basis. Schizo stuff. At one time Im looking forward for plans to spend forever with her. 2 hrs later Im having an anxiety attack and looking for my meds. And having little ability to see how I can actually forgive. Then all of the other stuff I rambled off on these pages go flying thru my head. Its so much to think about. I really didnt ask for this. For much of today, I felt dead inside. I didnt ask for this.

Mike,

I can't imagine anyone in their right mind asking for this. I know I sure didn't. I feel for you brother, because some days... Three years later, I still have a dead day here and there. The trick is to think forward. In a positive way, a way that won't end in destruction for you or your W. revenge is always the easy route and no one ever wants to hear that. If your W is truly repentant it will be evident in her demeanor. And the hard part comes when you just don't feel like it.

What you need is an anchor to help guide you on the difficult days. So that when you are feeling this way, you aren't moving backwards, but forward... This is a modern Irish hymn that helps me keep my focus.

Out of the night into the morn
Drawing us gently through the eye of the storm
Out of the sorrow into the joy
Where we'll dwell in the highlands with Him evermore

Sealed by a promise we are called to become
Those who endure 'til this race is won
And leaving their past, heading for more
Than our hearts can imagine, the final reward

As a BS (betrayed spouse), I see this for us both.. The future hope...

CV
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/22/11 04:36 AM
I think that "third party to bedroom" comment was knee jerk and perhaps something I would, if I could, retract, because if you have read any of the stuff I write I do have feelings for this woman. Piling on and crushing her more is something I try to catch myself from doing as early as possible. If you see the woman I see after I finish a verbal kick to her gut, youd agree she's very broken down. I think the sheer length of time of the A, in any of the forms that I spoke of earlier, factored with the complete disregard for me as a person to allow him and his family in my home is going to be tough for me to deal with. Again, not for shock value, this turned into a cash transaction for lite babysitting and the occasional sex act. This obviously a woman who went down to a dark place inside. This was not love affair. It was like 2 buddies who every so often did each other. Sort of icky, but I couldnt blame him for it, my wife is beautiful. So, Im sticking around swallowsing some pride and heling this woman who needs my help.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 05/22/11 04:43 AM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
I think that "third party to bedroom" comment was knee jerk and perhaps something I would, if I could, retract, because if you have read any of the stuff I write I do have feelings for this woman. Piling on and crushing her more is something I try to catch myself from doing as early as possible. If you see the woman I see after I finish a verbal kick to her gut, youd agree she's very broken down. I think the sheer length of time of the A, in any of the forms that I spoke of earlier, factored with the complete disregard for me as a person to allow him and his family in my home is going to be tough for me to deal with. Again, not for shock value, this turned into a cash transaction for lite babysitting and the occasional sex act. This obviously a woman who went down to a dark place inside. This was not love affair. It was like 2 buddies who every so often did each other. Sort of icky, but I couldnt blame him for it, my wife is beautiful.

I blame him. He stole something that was not his to take. Your wife. He wasn't a very good buddie to her either. If he was, he would never have done this, or allowed her to. That's not love, friendship or even fondness...

What is her demeanor when things are not so crazy loopy for you both... When the arguements are at a minimum and she has a chance to be herself?

Has she had an opportunity to share her feelings about the whole thing without blow-back yet? It took quite a while for that to happen with us.

CV
Posted By: Grace4me Re: Deception - 05/22/11 04:49 AM
Originally Posted by celticvoyager
I blame him. He stole something that was not his to take. Your wife. He wasn't a very good buddie to her either. If he was, he would never have done this, or allowed her to. That's not love, friendship or even fondness...

Well said!
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/22/11 04:54 AM
Yes. We've talking camly at length and I am perfectly confident her story is true. Im missing only the details she is holding back that we spoke of earlier. She hated being there. Its so screwed, but because she didnt want to lose a lousy few hundred bucks a week babysitting job she says she did what she did. It wasnt weekly but obviously it was plenty. She got scared when he pressured her and held money over her. And, the job outside the sex was perfect for her to be available to our kids and whatnot. She felt trapped for many years. My wife, again, has some therapy ahead of her. Her remorse is genuine. She's been humiliated in many ways. I have to take care of my kids and she needs to work on herself. Thats what direction my life took.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/22/11 05:04 AM
Celt and Grace: Im heading upstairs to bed.

Thanks for the great words. Tomorrows my 2 wk anniversary of learning my wife has been cheating on my for years. I learned a lot about me which is the best thing to come out of it. All these sites and advice a betrayed gets say that I should focus on me. BS. I have 2 kids and a wife with some serious head stuff to focus on.

Talk to you guys soon.
Posted By: 8yearsoflies Re: Deception - 05/22/11 05:45 AM
I'm sorry to hear this happened to you. I also had a spouse who cheated on me for 6-8 years with someone who was often at our house and pretended to be my friend. I understand your feeling of terrible betrayal and deception from both of them. And your feeling of being duped. I often think "how could I have been so stupid and blind?" and how could they have been so clever to have fooled me? There's one feeling I don't share with you - that's jealousy - about the great sex they had. I did at first, but somewhere I read or heard an analogy that changed my mind. It compared what they had to the yacht, fancy house, vacations and cars owned by a mobster who gained them all through killing and stealing . I'm not jealous of those things, and I'm not jealous of the sex or anything else my H had with his AP, because they sold their souls to get it.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: Deception - 05/22/11 06:10 AM
Hello MikeSmile,


I think you have been getting some very good advice from CV and Grace. I thouhgt I would ask a few questions and make a few suggestions if you don't mind.

First question do you really believe she did this for half of your marriage (7 years) and did it only for the money? I don't. I don't think you married a whore. I think she got a lot out of it and as you said you were cut out of the marriage in many ways.

Second question, if you are going to spend at least another 9 years with her wouldn't it be better if they were good years, not years filled with conflict, anger, pain?

Third question, what are you going to do with the mother of your children? she has treated you very poorly, but your children deserve a mother who can be a good mother to them and she cannot be nor will she be IF she is a second class citizen. How are you going to reabilitate this woman? What is your plan to bring her back to being a woman that is worthy of your children? It really doesn't matter if you stay or leave, they need their mother reabilitated and you can do that.

MS, I have been here 12 years now. Reading since Feb 99 and registered since Aug 99. I have never seen a BS (betrayed spouse) that did not ride the rollercoaster just as you are. It is normal. Having said this my next admonition to you is CRUCIAL. Don't speak, don't write, don't text, don't twitter, don't email, don't do NOTHING, until you have thought about it for about two hours. Write it down, let it sit, and then ask yourself "What does this accomplish and will it accomplish what I want and need it to accomplish?"


Your marriage may make it and it may not, but you don't need to torch yourself, your W or your family as you ride the rollercoaster. Your W is on one as well, so be aware that she will have good days and bad days.

I'll be very honest with you, I don't believe she did it for the money. I think there was something between them. I mean she did not get paid to have them over for dinner but she did for years. I am not sure I could or would remain in a marriage where an affair went on for 7 years. But whether I could or would is NOT the issue here. The issue is you are here and you are seeking help and the help you are going to get is going to be directed at saving your marriage if that is possible.

I will tell you that both you and your W even in divorce will be happier if you both try your best to save this marriage before divorcing. I am not recommending divorce, but to avoid it YOU have to allow time and have patience both with yourself and your wife. You need time to heal, you learn, to grow and to see things in a different perspective. Your W will need the same.

In the long run perspective is the key. If you both change yours there is hope for a good marriage and one where there is balance between the two of you. She MUST become your partner in social situation and in the bed. She cannot be your slave, your indentured servant, the hired help. She MUST return to being your W. It will take time for her to do this and it will take time for you to learn how to do this, but it can be done and the tools are here.

I know you are angry, hurt, embarrassed, and frustrated, but through all of that you must live your life with CLASS. You must show her and your children how to handle things respectfully even if you are so hurt you can barely get off of your knees you are in so much pain.

I will tell you this if you do these things no matter how it turns out, you will know you did your best, you will know that you gave it your best shot, and you will know that you did it with integrity and honor.

You have an OPPORTUNITY to show those you love what kind of man you are, the decision as to what kind of man you are is yours...no one elses.

You face a huge challenge, go for it.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: Kenmoore14217 Re: Deception - 05/22/11 10:38 AM
Please read once more:

I'll be very honest with you, I don't believe she did it for the money. I think there was something between them. I mean she did not get paid to have them over for dinner but she did for years. I am not sure I could or would remain in a marriage where an affair went on for 7 years. But whether I could or would is NOT the issue here. The issue is you are here and you are seeking help and the help you are going to get is going to be directed at saving your marriage if that is possible
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/22/11 10:54 AM
JL--Thanks for the thoughts. All good stuff and will be reread a couple of times to digest.

Im very sure there was genuine affection and boyfriend/girlfriend moments in the beginning. I cannot dispute that. But, in the end, he had to pay her as his assistant so money was always exchanged every week. So whatever love or other word that described what they had for the first number of years was based on her being paid to come back. Am I cherry coating a pile of poop? Maybe. But, its clear to me that when this came out and she was free she was a new person. She regrets the fallout, but says being trapped in that situation however lame it sounds to you and me was killing her inside.

We are getting help and we will figure out if this is salvagable.

As for selling their souls, I can agree with this. Im furious with him for treating my wife this way. As his masterbatory device. Because most johns in the end, I think, have little respect for their prositutes. And he knew very well for year after year this is all she was. And, he came to my house for Sun dinner to complete the domination of us all. It was really a mindgame for himself to play for himself. I think my wife was numb to most of it while trapped in her self imposed, unlocked sex prison.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 05/22/11 12:38 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
JL--Thanks for the thoughts. All good stuff and will be reread a couple of times to digest.

Im very sure there was genuine affection and boyfriend/girlfriend moments in the beginning. I cannot dispute that. But, in the end, he had to pay her as his assistant so money was always exchanged every week. So whatever love or other word that described what they had for the first number of years was based on her being paid to come back. Am I cherry coating a pile of poop? Maybe. But, its clear to me that when this came out and she was free she was a new person. She regrets the fallout, but says being trapped in that situation however lame it sounds to you and me was killing her inside.

We are getting help and we will figure out if this is salvagable.

As for selling their souls, I can agree with this. Im furious with him for treating my wife this way. As his masterbatory device. Because most johns in the end, I think, have little respect for their prositutes. And he knew very well for year after year this is all she was. And, he came to my house for Sun dinner to complete the domination of us all. It was really a mindgame for himself to play for himself. I think my wife was numb to most of it while trapped in her self imposed, unlocked sex prison.
think I'll tell you something that concerns me about your posts, Mike. You sound like you are establishing your WW as a victim. She most assuredly was not. Am I not reading you correctly? She was in a 'sex prison' and she held the key to unlock the cell door. She didn't use it because she didn't want to! I am concerned that your healing will be anemic if your wayward does not accept and acknowledge what SHE chose to do to you by choosing to engage in a affair with another man. And you need to accept that your wayward wife was capable of such a choice.

She is no victim, Sir.

And of course she's a different person now! That is a common trait in defogging waywards.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/22/11 06:31 PM
Thanks, MB. Of course this is a topic I had with the psychologis this morning. Yes. I am letting my wife off the hook in some respects but I cant punish her too severe or my kids face issues. Because she chose to almost destroy them, I have to choose to save them from permanent harm she caused. By leaving am I doing my self justice if I add to the permanent mental harm we almost let happen to them?

I know she didnt want to leave the situation at any unbearable point. I can only take her word that is was something she felt trapped in. By what? Dunno. Not love. Not any fanstastic sex she was getting. Her pyschologist has work to do. They can start with self esteem and self worth issues.
Posted By: BetterinPA Re: Deception - 05/22/11 06:41 PM
MS - There are many reasons for wanting to know the truth about the details of the affair and you have every right to have your wife provide you with that info. I'm attaching a notable post from Pepper called Joseph's Letter. It may help to explain why you feel you need to know, and more importantly, why she should tell you.

This is a classic letter ... applicable when your adulterous spouse is not willing to disclose the details of the affair ... but wants to recover the marriage ...

Here ya go!

"To Whomever,

"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.

"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.

"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."

(end of Joseph's Letter)
_________________________

I hope this letter has provided you with some insight. Also, someone mentioned early on that a screening for STD's would be a smart move. Have you taken their advice?? It was also suggested that a DNA test may not be a bad idea either. Do you harbor any doubts to the paternity of your children?? If so, a DNA test may be the only opportunity you have to put those fears to rest.

God's Blessings for Recovery.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 05/22/11 08:41 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
JL--Thanks for the thoughts. All good stuff and will be reread a couple of times to digest.

Im very sure there was genuine affection and boyfriend/girlfriend moments in the beginning. I cannot dispute that. But, in the end, he had to pay her as his assistant so money was always exchanged every week. So whatever love or other word that described what they had for the first number of years was based on her being paid to come back. Am I cherry coating a pile of poop? Maybe. But, its clear to me that when this came out and she was free she was a new person. She regrets the fallout, but says being trapped in that situation however lame it sounds to you and me was killing her inside.

One thing that stands out very clear in our story, and probably most others is the trapped feelings the cheating spouses feel. Dr. Harley comments on this also, noting that it is usually accompanied by depression and even suicidal thoughts.


We are getting help and we will figure out if this is salvagable.

I have some really good news! Marriages are almost ALWAYS salvageable! That is if both spouses are committed to recovering it. YOu can build a better marriage than you thought you ever had. And I'm not saying this to just sound like a motivational speaker.

As for selling their souls, I can agree with this. Im furious with him for treating my wife this way. As his masterbatory device. Because most johns in the end, I think, have little respect for their prositutes. And he knew very well for year after year this is all she was. And, he came to my house for Sun dinner to complete the domination of us all. It was really a mindgame for himself to play for himself. I think my wife was numb to most of it while trapped in her self imposed, unlocked sex prison.


Mike, are you interested in recovery? If you are, you will have to make a decision as to how you reference your wife. You are gonna have to make an effort (and it can be really hard at times) to not call her a sl^t, whore, bee-yotch, or whatever... You are going to have to work on more positive ways to address things, beginning with determining how you are referring to her now, and how she was in the past.


Honestly, this can be hard. you will want to treat her like she was, only she may not be that way now.

CV
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 05/22/11 08:42 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
Thanks, MB. Of course this is a topic I had with the psychologis this morning. Yes. I am letting my wife off the hook in some respects but I cant punish her too severe or my kids face issues

Actually, you shouldn't be punishing her at all. She will punish herself enough for the both of you when she de-fogs...
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Deception - 05/22/11 09:27 PM
Expecting your W to take 100% responsibility for her affair doesn't have anything to do with punishing her. It is necessary for your recovery.

Like some of the other posters, MS, I have some real concerns with your WW blaming some of her actions on $$, etc.

The best advice I can give you is to get a call into the coaching center (link at top of the page). We have worked with Steve Harley and he is REALLY good, much better than regular marriage counseling. I would do that over the psychologist. Sorry you are here, Mike...
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Deception - 05/22/11 11:11 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
Her pyschologist has work to do. They can start with self esteem and self worth issues.

This is what Dr Harley says about this, Mike:
Quote
I do not believe that counseling to improve self-esteem, apart from showing people how to be successful, ever really improves self-esteem.

The approach that I use to save marriages looks at the present and future for solutions. I encourage you not to worry about your husband's past, his self-esteem or whether or not he loves himself.
Here


Does the psychologist you are working with focus on childhood issues, etc? Because Dr Harley is pretty strong in his stance that this is not helpful especially when trying to rebuild a marriage. Here is what he says:

(credit goes to Melody, this is copied from one of her posts)

Quote
"Some counselors think it's a good idea to "resolve issues of the past" by talking about them week after week, month after month, year after year. It keeps these counselors in business, but does nothing to resolve the issue. In fact, it usually makes their poor clients chronically depressed.

My experience as a Clinical Psychologist has proven to me that dredging up unpleasant experiences of the past merely brings the unhappiness of the past into the present. The problems of the present are difficult enough to solve without spending time and energy trying to resolve issues of the past, which are essentially unresolvable. You can make your future happy, but you can't do a thing about bad experiences of the past, except think and talk about them -- and that makes the bad experiences of the past, bad experiences of the present." Dr. Willard Harley

here

Quote
An analysis of the wayward spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them.
here

Quote
One of the reasons I'm not so keen on dredging up the past as a part of therapy is that it brings up memories that carry resentment along with them. If I'm not careful, a single counseling session can open up such a can of worms that the presenting problem gets lost in a flood of new and painful memories. If the goal of therapy is to "resolve" every past issue, that seems to me to be a good way to keep people coming for therapy for the rest of their lives. That's because it's an insurmountable goal. We simply cannot resolve everything that's ever bothered us.


Instead, I tend to focus my attention on the present and the future, because they are what we can all do something about. The past is over and done with. Why waste our effort on the past when the future is upon us. Granted, it's useful to learn lessons from the past, but if we dwell on the past, we take our eyes off the future which can lead to disaster.



I personally believe that therapy should focus most attention, not on the past, but on ways to make the future sensational.
here

Posted By: Just Learning Re: Deception - 05/23/11 06:26 AM
MS,

You said
Quote
Yes. I am letting my wife off the hook in some respects but I cant punish her too severe or my kids face issues. Because she chose to almost destroy them, I have to choose to save them from permanent harm she caused. By leaving am I doing my self justice if I add to the permanent mental harm we almost let happen to them?

I know she didnt want to leave the situation at any unbearable point. I can only take her word that is was something she felt trapped in. By what? Dunno. Not love. Not any fanstastic sex she was getting. Her pyschologist has work to do. They can start with self esteem and self worth issues.
Mike, here is what we are trying to tell you. Seeing the situation for its reality rather than from the point of view of revisionist history as supplied by the WS is going to help save your marriage.

You don't understand, you seeing the reality, her finally admitting that she was not "trapped" she wanted to stay there is going to help both of you. Why? Honesty my friend. For you to recover this marriage for her to do her part to recover this marriage HONESTY is required. Not just from her to you, or you to her, but for both of you to be honest with yourselves.

I don't get the feeling that either of you are honest with yourselves right now.

Let's get one thing straight. No one is advocating that you punish your W in any way. What we are advocating is that you must not delude yourself as to the seriousness of her 7 year affair and that clearly she wanted it to continue for years. She must not delude herself (although it makes a good excuse or herself) as to why this affair occured. She made choices and she continued to make choices that have seriously damaged herself, you, your marriage and your children. Until she really faces this, there is little hope that her perspective can really change on this. More importantly this story she has told will eat at you in the coming months and years. Yes we are talking years here.

You have faced that she had an affair with another man that was very intimate and lasted 1/2 of your marriage. What you have to also face is that she chose it for reasons you don't yet understand. She has to face this as well.



Then and only then can you build a marriage that you both have confidence in, security in, and most of all love each other in. Notice all of the dangling particpals (sp) in that sentence? They dangle just as you will until honest with yourselves occurs. You don't have to cover for her, you don't have to punish her, but you do know have to know what you are forgiving and you and your W need to know what weakness in her boundaries you have to address.

You are doing fine, but the coaster will go up and down for quite awhile yet. Hang in there.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 05/23/11 11:38 AM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
Thanks, MB. Of course this is a topic I had with the psychologis this morning. Yes. I am letting my wife off the hook in some respects but I cant punish her too severe or my kids face issues. Because she chose to almost destroy them, I have to choose to save them from permanent harm she caused. By leaving am I doing my self justice if I add to the permanent mental harm we almost let happen to them?

I know she didnt want to leave the situation at any unbearable point. I can only take her word that is was something she felt trapped in. By what? Dunno. Not love. Not any fanstastic sex she was getting. Her pyschologist has work to do. They can start with self esteem and self worth issues.
Mike, it isn't a matter of "punishing" your WW. It is a matter of affair-proofing your marriage. If you think we're suggesting that you do anything in order to punish your WW you are reading our posts incorrectly. You need to use the tools here to affair-proof your marriage and build it into a passionate relationship that would end her wandering eye.

Her psychologist doesn't have squat to do. This has nothing to do with self-esteem, Mike. Far from it - your WW thinks plenty of herself. She thought she deserved the attention of two men! She thought she deserved to run your marriage and family off the road while she pursued whatever she wanted! That is not a lack of self-esteem or self-worth, friend. Far from it.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 05/23/11 12:01 PM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
[quote] One of the reasons I'm not so keen on dredging up the past as a part of therapy is that it brings up memories that carry resentment along with them. If I'm not careful, a single counseling session can open up such a can of worms that the presenting problem gets lost in a flood of new and painful memories. If the goal of therapy is to "resolve" every past issue, that seems to me to be a good way to keep people coming for therapy for the rest of their lives. That's because it's an insurmountable goal. We simply cannot resolve everything that's ever bothered us.


Instead, I tend to focus my attention on the present and the future, because they are what we can all do something about. The past is over and done with. Why waste our effort on the past when the future is upon us. Granted, it's useful to learn lessons from the past, but if we dwell on the past, we take our eyes off the future which can lead to disaster.


This is how I understood the quote when I hit chapter 11 of SAA... That by the purpose of looking at the past is to learn from it so we don't repeat the same mistakes. So we can identify behaviors and actions that were destructive. This can be done without a physchiatrist I believe. Also essential is what he says the purpose is for... To look towards the future. It should not be a *major* part of fixing the problem.


cv
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/23/11 03:56 PM
This whole damn thing is making me crazy. I understand the magnitude of what she did. I understand the implications if I dont fully understand what she did and that SHE understand the implications. As each of us on this blog have differing specifics in our stories, I am trying to balance some of even handed suggestions from some and some of the absolute disbelief some have with my wife. And, Im at a loss here as I was the dupe for too many years so everytime I see my wife remorseful and shaking and just hoping this would go away, I read some post where I should simply pack my stuff and run. Our situation reads, I see from afar, that my wife had this romantic seven year worldwind romance with passionate, I LOVE YOUS on the beach. And, Im sorry I dont see it that way. I see a woman with some of the worst self worth issues falling for a guy who made her feel good and gave her what she needed. She is not that good a of a liar, which, when you are done laughing, I hope you take my word for. I have started going thru the material on these pages that the Dr. provided. And we'll see what else I learn about past. I will accept being called naive, a dupe, and someone bound for another fall. But, Im not seeing it that way yet.
Posted By: reading Re: Deception - 05/23/11 04:13 PM
Of course it is making you feel crazy. That's what being betrayed by a spouse will do to you. Make you filled with emotions. Filled with doubt and filled with despair.

Again. The revelation of the affair is new to you.

You are trying to make sense of how the woman you love didn't have sex with you but another man for seven years.

You are trying to justify why.

Buy the book Surviving An Affair and read it.
Read His Needs Her Needs
Read Love Busters

It will explain it all and help you to formulate how, why, and what to do.

If you don't like reading, you WILL be riveted by these books. They will speak to you of your experience like no others.

Then you can begin to heal from the betrayel.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/23/11 04:27 PM
Thanks. Will get the books.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Deception - 05/23/11 04:51 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
I see a woman with some of the worst self worth issues falling for a guy who made her feel good and gave her what she needed.

Self esteem and other background issues are irrelevant. As I gave you in one of the above quotes, Dr Harley says we are all wired for affairs. That's why we must have protections in place to avoid letting other people meet our ENs. Like many others, your W's A probably started with intimate conversation.

If your W doesn't acknowledge it was weak boundaries that led to her affair, then she is less likely to implement and follow Extraordinary Precautions to avoid the OM (NC) and also to prevent another affair.


Originally Posted by MikeSmile
She is not that good a of a liar, which, when you are done laughing, I hope you take my word for.
She had a Secret Second Life for 7 years, Mike. It doesn't matter what we think. Facts speak for themselves. All waywards are dishonest, especially with themselves. It doesn't mean she can't change. Acknowledgement of a problem is a good first step...


Originally Posted by MikeSmile
I will accept being called naive, a dupe, and someone bound for another fall. But, Im not seeing it that way yet.


No one is calling you naive but waywards follow very similar patterns ~ and the common mistake BSs make is thinking their situation is "different" or "special". My immediate concern is that NC will be broken if you don't recognize an affair for what it is ~ an addiction. Learn about the MB recovery plan and follow it to the letter, it's really your best bet.

Hang in there.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: Deception - 05/23/11 06:29 PM
Mike,

I liked what SuzieQ said to you pay attention.

Heck Mike if this stuff is only "making you crazy" you are in good shape. smile You are not crazy, you are just where you are supposed to be at this point. Let me reiterate some points sQ just made. You said
Quote
I understand the magnitude of what she did. I understand the implications if I dont fully understand what she did and that SHE understand the implications.
You will never fully understand all of this as you were not part of the affair. What is crucial is that she start to be honest with herself and subsequently honest with you. Then you two can make plans to rebuild and protect your marriage.


Quote
As each of us on this blog have differing specifics in our stories, I am trying to balance some of even handed suggestions from some and some of the absolute disbelief some have with my wife.
I prefer the word skepticism myself. I am skeptical that she was held a slave to this man. Too many WW have come here or their BS' have come her claiming it was beyond their control. I do believe that an affair is very addictive, thus the difficulty in ending them and maintaining No Contact. Here is the point, what needs was the OM providing that you were not? What did she tell herself that permitted to have an affair on you and your family for 7 years? You need to know these things and more importantly she needs to know them and recognize them, otherwise you are still defensless.


Quote
And, Im at a loss here as I was the dupe for too many years so everytime I see my wife remorseful and shaking and just hoping this would go away, I read some post where I should simply pack my stuff and run.
Dupe??? No you trusted her and that is what you did. Most WS fool their spouse or there would not be affairs and my friend there are plenty of affairs. What we want is for you to develop a better detector, develop confidence in your intuition, and as you become more aware and sensitive to your W's behavior you will be better able to protect yourself and your marriage. You cannot do this development without better data. You don't seem to have that yet. I don't see anyone telling you to walk, I did say were I in your shoes I would have probably walked, but who knows. You are here and everyone posting to you are trying to get your feet firmly on the ground to handle all of this.



Quote
Our situation reads, I see from afar, that my wife had this romantic seven year worldwind romance with passionate, I LOVE YOUS on the beach. And, Im sorry I dont see it that way. I see a woman with some of the worst self worth issues falling for a guy who made her feel good and gave her what she needed.
This is painful to say and I am sure painful to read. Apparently she knew she was worth $200. Now do you really believe she did it for the money? Do you really beleive she was trapped with no way out? Do you really believe it was low self worth? I don't beleive any of those. I beleive she did it because she wanted to. The reason she wanted to was it made her feel good. People with low self-worth (whatever that means) don't automatically go out and have affairs. Some of the most cocky SOB's I have met felt entitled to have affairs and NO ONE could claim they has low self-worth. Your W had poor boundaries and what little boundaries she had she did not protect. That is what must be addressed by her. She must develop/recognize boundaries that are consistent with your marriage vows and then she must develop plans to protect them.




Quote
She is not that good a of a liar, which, when you are done laughing, I hope you take my word for.
As SuzieQ said, she successfully lied to you for 7 years, I'd say that makes here an accomplished liar. You are not a fool Mike, you like so many others trusted and she took advantage of that by lying to you quite well.



Quote
I have started going thru the material on these pages that the Dr. provided. And we'll see what else I learn about past. I will accept being called naive, a dupe, and someone bound for another fall. But, Im not seeing it that way yet.
You are not bound for another fall, what we worry about is your W is bound to fail in her mission to recover this marriage if she is not honest with you and herself. You cannot address what you don't know, and this early in this situation you do not know all you need to know. If she works with you I think you will learn many more things in the coming months. WS rarely reveal all in the first few weeks.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 05/23/11 07:50 PM
Quote
Our situation reads, I see from afar, that my wife had this romantic seven year worldwind romance with passionate, I LOVE YOUS on the beach. And, Im sorry I dont see it that way.
I don't see it that way, either. Affairs are typically much grimier and not very romantic, with two people looking at each other with empty, soul-less eyes and lying in order to get what they selfishly want, while their trusting spouse is sitting at home, clueless. Nope, not romantic at all, Mike. Very UNromantic.

Quote
She is not that good a of a liar, which, when you are done laughing, I hope you take my word for.
No one is laughing, Mike. This is about the least funny situation any survivor of adultery would want to see another human having to go through. As a matter of fact, I am sure there are posters here who are sick for you.


Quote
I will accept being called naive, a dupe, and someone bound for another fall.
How about "none of the above"? EXCEPT: (listen closely) you MUST remove the conditions that made the affair possible. That includes the secrecy around the affair and the job that made it convenient. If those conditions remain, then yes, you may be headed for disaster.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/23/11 07:54 PM
I may be breaking rules here: by I let my wife read all of the recent posts and even printed a few for her to keep. I asked her to post here and she agreed. So in her words, "What started years back as a glitzy romance with him taking caring of me, my family and doing the nice things I didnt get elsewhere turned into an easy situation for me. He took me out and gave me the materialistic things I loved as kid and I got swept away with him. He made me feel good and I definitely liked him. It turned sexual and because the easiness of it that included our families being close I never had concerns of it ending or someone finding out. He was my 10am - 2pm boyfriend. It got less good after a couple of years but still being easy and not wanting to ruin something I still wanted, I kept on going back. The last couple of years it turned very bad. Yes, I never left. And I say twice, I never left. He made ultimatum that for a few hundred dollars a week, lunch, and the occassion trip to the mall, Id be required to watch his kid and take care of him sexually once a week. Im glad I got caught it help me end something I was not proud of, something I couldnt end on my own, and something that I pray doesnt ruin my family. The burden on my shoulders is only removed slightly as Iam going to spend the rest of my life rebuilding my relationship with my husband that I deserted for all these years. And, try to mend whatever my children have absorbed about this. I HAVE NO INTEREST IN THIS OM. I made a major mistake and I paying a lot. My husband is paying a lot and he didnt deserve this. The OM made a call last week for his closure and I told him to F-off. I told my H this immediately and we are moving through the process using some of the ideas from this site. People have weak moments and mine was a long time and they sometimes can destroy others. Im very lucky to be able to be in the situation Im in now with my H helping me. I have given the informaiotn hes asked for, I hope it makes him feel better knowing some of the intimate stuff. I understand I hold this big secret of years of a 2nd life. And we wont edge closer to our happiness until he knows it all. I appreciate you helping him as I really screwed up his head and he hurting so bad. If killing myself would have helped the situation, I would have done it.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 05/23/11 08:19 PM
Mike,

what is her username?

CV
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/23/11 08:25 PM
We talked about setting her up. She's not very technical and Id doubt she write as prolifically as some of us do. Its a bit more involved than Facebook so I dont think she'd be very proactive in the forum, but I see the value and she has read a lot of posts and it may be something I get her do. But right now, if you want an answer, Id be glad to share. With you guys and her Im an open book. I learned today some of dirty details and as you predicted it neither helped nor hindered my recovery. I look forward with her because I love her and she needs me and I need to help her not ever feel so low about herself or station in life that she would get into what she got into. Thats my play 2 weeks and one day after, what do you guys call it?, D-Day? Is that the day of finding out? If so, its been 15 days.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 05/23/11 08:31 PM
Mike, 'She doesn't need to be a whiz at it. My dear wife is not savvy at all with forums and picked it up easily.

Are you guys talking or using the notebook for the details?

CV
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/23/11 08:37 PM
I showed her the letter someone earlier posted as why I need to know. She read it and I asked questions and she answered. So we are talking the details. I told her I been humiliated for a long time she can handle a few moments descibing the sex. And CV, as my long time friend, I solemnly belived her story to be true. Learning your wife gave a buddy a weekly BJ as part of her regular nanny position was certainly an eye opener, but not completely from left field after 2 weeks of my imagination flowing.

She has no answer as to why she stayed. You can infer she enjoyed giving the WH (weekly head) but I dont think so.
Posted By: faithful follower Re: Deception - 05/23/11 08:51 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
I showed her the letter someone earlier posted as why I need to know. She read it and I asked questions and she answered. So we are talking the details. I told her I been humiliated for a long time she can handle a few moments descibing the sex. And CV, as my long time friend, I solemnly belived her story to be true. Learning your wife gave a buddy a weekly BJ as part of her regular nanny position was certainly an eye opener, but not completely from left field after 2 weeks of my imagination flowing.

She has no answer as to why she stayed. You can infer she enjoyed giving the WH (weekly head) but I dont think so.
He was meeting her needs so she met his. My A was about 2 years in length. My H suspected but didn't know for sure and I wrote it off as "just friends". I honestly did not want the sex, I wanted the needs he was filling to continue so I gave back what was expected for that to continue. I prostituted myself for conversation, flattery and to feel "good" about myself. The biggest problem was that left me feeling worse about myself than anything I have ever done in my entire life.

However, she could have stopped. She chose not to stop. I stopped my A at the typical two year mark. I opened my eyes just enough to know I did not want this man as a partner or to help raise my kids.

Now let me tell you as a betrayed spouse (my H had two A's one of which produced a child) that long term A's (LTA's) are very difficult to recover from. Please be good to yourself and be honest with yourself. Your WW has a lot of damage to repair to both you and your children.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 05/23/11 08:56 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
I showed her the letter someone earlier posted as why I need to know. She read it and I asked questions and she answered. So we are talking the details. I told her I been humiliated for a long time she can handle a few moments descibing the sex. And CV, as my long time friend, I solemnly belived her story to be true. Learning your wife gave a buddy a weekly BJ as part of her regular nanny position was certainly an eye opener, but not completely from left field after 2 weeks of my imagination flowing.

She has no answer as to why she stayed. You can infer she enjoyed giving the WH (weekly head) but I dont think so.
Mike, your wife should start her own thread. But I'll ask her a question on yours for now - I'm not sure if this was answered or not: Mike's wife, did you go to the OM's wife and explain what you did with her husband?
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/23/11 09:51 PM
Well, if you read the story of how we found out, youd know there was cell phone videoing (unbeknownst to my wife) of oral by my wife that he made and his wife was looking for baby videos and found them. So, no she has not explained herself. But, after I heard of the bjs on the video, it took 24 hours for me to learn that there was intercoarse that went on for many years. THIS I made my wife inform OM wife about. But, no explanation given nor really neeed. Her husband went for it and my wife went willingly simply said.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: Deception - 05/23/11 09:57 PM
Mike,

Read this again, and then go back and read what you have said from the start to now.
Quote
"What started years back as a glitzy romance with him taking caring of me, my family and doing the nice things I didnt get elsewhere turned into an easy situation for me. He took me out and gave me the materialistic things I loved as kid and I got swept away with him. He made me feel good and I definitely liked him. It turned sexual and because the easiness of it that included our families being close I never had concerns of it ending or someone finding out. He was my 10am - 2pm boyfriend. It got less good after a couple of years but still being easy and not wanting to ruin something I still wanted, I kept on going back. The last couple of years it turned very bad. Yes, I never left. And I say twice, I never left. He made ultimatum that for a few hundred dollars a week, lunch, and the occassion trip to the mall, Id be required to watch his kid and take care of him sexually once a week. Im glad I got caught it help me end something I was not proud of, something I couldnt end on my own, and something that I pray doesnt ruin my family. The burden on my shoulders is only removed slightly as Iam going to spend the rest of my life rebuilding my relationship with my husband that I deserted for all these years. And, try to mend whatever my children have absorbed about this. I HAVE NO INTEREST IN THIS OM. I made a major mistake and I paying a lot. My husband is paying a lot and he didnt deserve this. The OM made a call last week for his closure and I told him to F-off. I told my H this immediately and we are moving through the process using some of the ideas from this site. People have weak moments and mine was a long time and they sometimes can destroy others. Im very lucky to be able to be in the situation Im in now with my H helping me. I have given the informaiotn hes asked for, I hope it makes him feel better knowing some of the intimate stuff. I understand I hold this big secret of years of a 2nd life. And we wont edge closer to our happiness until he knows it all. I appreciate you helping him as I really screwed up his head and he hurting so bad. If killing myself would have helped the situation, I would have done it.
You will see some of what you said at the first is true, you also see that some of what you said was not very accurate. And I suspect some of what she said was news to you.

My point, the story will change as the fog lifts and the healing begins. I'm going to say something to you and your W, it has been my observation that in the case of long term affairs, the hardest thing for the BS to get over is the lying, not the sex. EVen harder is the feeling that a large fraction of the marriage was a lie and why you remember was a fantasy.

Those feelings have a very strong foundation, you were lied to for years. However, here is where focusing on the future, setting up plans to protect both of you, addressing her needs, and planning for a better and more fun marriage in the future really has value. It will help you overcome those other feelings I have mentioned.

I will tell both of you that recovery will take at least two years and in the case of long term affairs often longer. Now the next years won't and don't have to be like you feel now, and d-day is the day you find out.

She needs to decide if she really needs the "glitzy romance" to feel loved, appreciated, needed, valued. If she does, you two need to really talk. If she has decided she does not, what will she replace this need with? This is part of the discussion and planning that must go on. Neither of you can solve all of this in a few days or even months, it will take years. But, take your time, learn, grow, and learn how to enjoy one another.

Mike, I hope your W does post. Often the WS and the BS see the information here very differently and it is helpful for both to ask their questions without worrying to much what the other will think until the information is better understood.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/23/11 10:04 PM
JL-

Thanks. I needed this.
Posted By: MrWondering Re: Deception - 05/23/11 10:48 PM
I, too, hope your wife registers and posts here on MB. My wife and I both post and it's an activity we do together. Vicariously discussing and posting about the problems (and potential solutions) of others in similar situations has enabled us to work out many of the things that happened between us years ago.

Strangely, recovery is a double edge sword. You BOTH need to recover from differing things for differing reasons. Recovery can't be done alone. She needs to help you and you will need to help her.

I'm a long way down the road (5+ years) from a short term affair. I can relate on some levels and not on others. It's not a "fun" journey but it can be a worthwhile journey. My wife and family were/are worth it.

It IS possible.

Mr. Wondering

Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/23/11 11:58 PM
Well more revelations my WW. Not unexpected but be careful for what you ask for you just may get it. Learned about their hookup spot and how many times they;d go there. I apologize to all, Ive read her fairly incorrectly and you guys had her pegged. This is going to be long journey and to be fair Im not sure I can do it. Sorry to be so wishy washy with my love for her and my commitment to sticking around but I am growing a hatred for her I havent had since day 1. How she led this life of lying to me is beyond comprehension. Maybe be beyond what I can live with forever. I got issues. And, we figured the physical relationship started 4 years ago, not 7. Our youngest was in kindergarten when she started in his office and that was 4 years ago. Subtle difference, but the flirting for sure started years back. So, now I can say it was a 4 yr affair, makes me feel less crappy, but not entirely uncrappy.
Posted By: Gamma Re: Deception - 05/24/11 12:20 AM
Mike,

Did you consider a polygraph, so you can move on or not depending on the outcome?

One thing I have noticed, not to excuse your W, is that some OM seem to take a sadistic joy not in getting the woman, but in getting another man's wife. They seem to be competing with the H, it's almost a gay thing.

God Bless
Gamma
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 05/24/11 12:44 AM
Mike,

Originally Posted by MikeSmile
Well more revelations my WW. Not unexpected but be careful for what you ask for you just may get it. Learned about their hookup spot and how many times they;d go there. I apologize to all, Ive read her fairly incorrectly and you guys had her pegged.


I'm sorry for you Mike. The only reason any of us had her "pegged" is because we've been in similar shoes. May I give you a bit of encouragement that may not sound like it right now? She is coming clean. That is a good thing. She may be embarrassed, shamed and depressed every time she recounts this. This will be one of the signs of her true repentance. Also her willingness to give the info.


This is going to be long journey and to be fair Im not sure I can do it. Sorry to be so wishy washy with my love for her and my commitment to sticking around but I am growing a hatred for her I havent had since day 1.


No, brother... You're hurting, and rightly so. Don't make rash decisions. You are still close to ground zero with this and you're on a roller-coaster of emotions. I lost 25 lbs in 2 weeks because of stress, not eating, etc... I was only 170 to begin with. Two of your best allies right now are food and sleep. Take an excedrin PM if you need, or a unisom. Trust me, it will slow the roller coaster. Another bit of advice is to take it day by day. This is not a good time to be making life decisions.

How she led this life of lying to me is beyond comprehension. Maybe be beyond what I can live with forever. I got issues. And, we figured the physical relationship started 4 years ago, not 7. Our youngest was in kindergarten when she started in his office and that was 4 years ago. Subtle difference, but the flirting for sure started years back. So, now I can say it was a 4 yr affair, makes me feel less crappy, but not entirely uncrappy.


Find anchors. You will find that not everything between you was a lie. Is there comfort knowing that the affair was not as long? Go to the main site and read about dealing with anger and resentment.

CV(
Posted By: chickadee1 Re: Deception - 05/24/11 01:01 AM
"I'm sorry for you Mike. The only reason any of us had her "pegged" is because we've been in similar shoes. May I give you a bit of encouragement that may not sound like it right now? She is coming clean. That is a good thing. She may be embarrassed, shamed and depressed every time she recounts this. This will be one of the signs of her true repentance. Also her willingness to give the info."

i have also been in your shoes, its hard. my H came clean, i am gonna say 8x. its alot to deal with.

you are right you asked for it, i did too, but it doesnt make it easier to hear, but in the end its better for you so you can begin to heal.

you will see that these VETS are tough, but they pretty much have seen it all and are here to guide us newbes on what to do, whats normal and whats not. they do it with our best interest at heart.

lost alot of weight, heart palps, no sleep. roller coster sucks! stay here, vent and use this forum for you and your healing, it helps, trust me.

"I got issues"- you have issues because of what she did. remember that.

look you cut 3 years off the relationship by communicating. you can do this.



Posted By: Just Learning Re: Deception - 05/24/11 04:55 AM
Hi Mike,

Of course you are not sure you can do it. I would be very worried about you if you were confident that you could do this. Mike recovery is hard work. I can assure you that there are a few other things for you to learn from her. As others are pointing out, she is starting to tell the truth. It is hard for her to do so as it means she must face the truth and that can be pretty ugly (like that? pretty ugly smile ) my English teacher would cry. wink

You are on the rollercoaster, buckle up it is a challenging ride.

Mike the good news for you, is that most WS do and say almost exactly the same thing and that means if the Harley approach will work for a few it can work for the many.

Hang in the Mike.

JL
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/24/11 05:36 AM
She swears theres nothing left to know. About 4 years or so, she started in her office, it was a very good times for and it evolved to sex. About 5x they went out after work, which is interesting as I little recollection of her going on but I guessed she said she was seeing an old friend or some other lie. This location was a high steak house that had attached inn. They brought dinner and in and whatever. This did this at least 5 times. The rest of the time was in his office and when she took the nanny job, in his house. It was mainly oral on him and a smattering of intercoarse throughtout. The last 2 yrs in his home as the nanny was a weekly bj only. I can hear that she was not happy with the home arrangement and she began to resent him, but she didnt leave him. I dont know what other revelations are next but Im really not happy. Im not i want to stick around anymore with someone with as little regard for me as this one had. I assume if Im gone, she'd contact him eventually and she can continue to be his side action maybe he has enough money to carry 2 families. I despise her. She ruin my life and my childrens.
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: Deception - 05/24/11 12:40 PM
Facilitating back and forth with Angers are all normal for BS's. Resentment is a tough road. I wish I could tell you how to get over it but somebody would have to tell show me.
With this depth of deception Im sure its tough. But dont make decision based on slices of time. Dont let feelings make decisions either.
I skimmed since your original post but if your WW is willing to make compensation then for you DC I think its a educated gamble you must take. Thats just me and its not a one size fits all smile
Make her do the heavy lifting, set your boundaries and make sure she understands them. Then in TIME this resentment will pass and you may have the M you have only dreamed of.
My heart goes out to you! From a BH to a BH. I do understand!

Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 05/24/11 12:47 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
Well, if you read the story of how we found out, youd know there was cell phone videoing (unbeknownst to my wife) of oral by my wife that he made and his wife was looking for baby videos and found them. So, no she has not explained herself. But, after I heard of the bjs on the video, it took 24 hours for me to learn that there was intercoarse that went on for many years. THIS I made my wife inform OM wife about. But, no explanation given nor really neeed. Her husband went for it and my wife went willingly simply said.
I remember now. Thanks, Mike.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 05/24/11 12:58 PM
Quote
She swears theres nothing left to know.
I wouldn't bet on that. Trickle-truth is the last weapon in the wayward arsenal. They'll swear on a lie because they "don't want to hurt you." Which is funny, when you think about it. cool If they didn't want to hurt you they wouldn't have had the affair in the first place.

In any event, she may have told you everything as she sees it. You may want more information, or you may want her to expand on a part of her disclosure. That's up to you, and she needs to give you any information (truthfully) that you require.

Quote
Im not i want to stick around anymore with someone with as little regard for me as this one had. I assume if Im gone, she'd contact him eventually and she can continue to be his side action maybe he has enough money to carry 2 families. I despise her. She ruin my life and my childrens.
{{{Mike}}} All the post-D-Day discussions and the new revelations are a [censored]. We know that. Again, I would suggest that you keep all of your options open, and decide not to make any long-term decisions right now.

After my D-Day, I would turn over my options, and I found it comforting to know that I reserved the right to divorce my H. Deep in my heart I knew I wouldn't, but it gave me a sense of control in a very 'out of control' time in my life.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 05/24/11 01:24 PM
Originally Posted by Hilsmonemoretime
Facilitating back and forth with Angers are all normal for BS's. Resentment is a tough road. I wish I could tell you how to get over it but somebody would have to tell show me.

I am finding that overcoming resentment isn't some magic formula that simply take affect after you do: XYZ...

instead, what I have found (and others please chime in here) is that resentment begins to fade *AFTER* all the details are given, questions mostly answered to satisfaction (the big ones), and you are able to really begin looking at the future together.

What I have found that breeds resentment is focusing and obsessing on the past.One of the geniuses of the MB program is that when you begin rebuilding your marriage it is forward focused. This is key to overcoming the resentment and hurt, because you are focusing on the now, and not the past.

We have to remember, that as betrayed spouses, we are victims (I really believe this) of sex-crimes. They were perpetrated against us by the ones we love and cherish the most.

To paraphrase SAA... "We cannot change the past, but we can change the present and the future."

cv
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/24/11 01:31 PM
If I knew how to insert those quotes like all of you do, Id love to do so. But, MB, thanks. Last night was a watershed moment for the dirty details and at 2:00am we had a knock out, drag down and ended it by having sex. Maybe this is good. This schizo thing is really something. I wish someone else had to deal with it, not me.

I started going thru the Dr's info in earnest and printed salient material for my WW to read. One thing I learned and Im studying hard is the past is the past and cannot be changed. I can spend my days worrying about every ejaculation (pardon my bluntness) and position and facial expression and what was said at dinner and who was the aggressor and who did this who did that. ORRRRR, I can move on and accept that she 1) cut of ties to OM, 2) declared and has shown her lack of any interest in OM, 3) believe Im the one she wants to be with and wants stop my hurting, and 4) wants me to forgive her for doing the "worst thing imaginable to me and our kids".

Yes, I enjoy the control and the amazing things WW is doing nowadays in the sack. Right now its a good day. I made her cry last night and I cried too which just the other day I was pretty sure I was done with.

With all respect to my pyschologist who given me some good direction, the main section of this site and to a greater extent you all have helped this mental mush of a guy more than you'll know.

Unfortunately, A's will go on forever so maybe I can use some of the insight you've given me for someone else. But, methinks I have a long road to row before Im ready to dole out advice.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 05/24/11 01:33 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
I assume if Im gone, she'd contact him eventually and she can continue to be his side action maybe he has enough money to carry 2 families. I despise her. She ruin my life and my childrens.

Mike,

Don't be so sure. Many WS' feel trapped in what they are doing (of course they are not, really, but they do feel that way), and the depression that accompanies people engaged in affairs coupled with the knowledge that they have "screwed everything up" often leads to a hopelessness where they feel they might as well continue on, because they feel like they are a POS anyway. This isn't true for all, but it is for many.

My own FWW relates to me that she felt like such a worthless POS that even though she wanted me, she didn't feel she was good enough to be with me. She was relieved to be caught as in her mind, she didn't know how to escape the A. There is a fogged out obscuring of any reason that accompanies A's that will take a reasonably intelligent person and reduce them to a blithering idiot in these situations.

Just something to keep in mind. She may not ever want to see that guy again....

CV
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/24/11 01:43 PM
My mentor in business always taught me to have a reason for asking questions, never just speak for the sake of speaking or ask for the sake of asking. Have a purpose!

So, I have this urge to send an email to OM who cannot be described as my best friend but certainly a friend who I feel the need to speak to. Id rather not call, he wouldnt pick up. I just want to reinforce how much he hurt my kids who he adored. Im not blaming him as I uncover more about want what on, WW was a very willing participant. This was a clear 2 way street as each of you have hammered home to me for 4 days.

This would be some closure for me as I was basically involved in this affair as the blind dupe. There would be no blame, no threats, no implied threats, just me telling him how he and his girlfriend hurt a lot of people and he needs to hear it from me.

I know the Dr. says WW needs to write the letter cutting off the deal. But, I think the F-off she gave him on the phone 2 weeks ago said enough.

I just need to know how he could sit in my house and then be with my wife the next day. I asked my wife the same thing for 2 weeks and theres really no reason. Just was what it was.

Lastly, this was not some guy at the bar she met weekly for action, this was a family friend so me reaching out to him I think is fair.

Any thoughts?
Posted By: MrWondering Re: Deception - 05/24/11 06:06 PM
The OM in this situation did more than just have an affair with your wife. He got off on the idea of dominating her (basically making her be his prostitute and paying her for things) and he got off on being your friend and "adoring" your children all the while he was enslaving and entrapping your wife. It's no wonder your wife told him to F' off a few weeks ago...she's likely relieved it's over.

Your wife certainly choose this at the outset and is fully responsible for her choices. I am in no way giving her an out. She's got her issues. However, I see this OM as having WAY more issues and I would encourage you to get and stay as far as possible. You don't have to get down and try to verbally speak your piece because when you get down with the dogs you end up with fleas (or an std). As far as I'm concerned the most you should ever say to this, er, man, ever again is "you are dead to me" and then live that out the rest of your life as though he were dead. Don't give him another brain cell of your memories. He is insignificant to the rest of your life.

It will take you a long time to get there but trust me...you have no "business" to finish with OM. He's a worm. A gnat. The idea of CLOSURE is illusory. There is no perfect thing you can say or do to him that will change the past.

Mr. W

p.s. - I'd also have deep concerns about how much he "adored" your children. Have they been informed about OM? Has OM ever inappropriately touched them as well?

p.p.s. - In the interest of full disclosure...6 or so months are dday for my wife and I, the OM in our sitch emailed my wife to cuss her out for exposing her/their behavior and apologizing to OM's ex-wife (they weren't married at the time but my wife was around her/their child a time or two). I let OM have it in one email and it did feel fairly good at the time and I don't regret it. I/we made our point that he was to never contact either of us again.
Posted By: pokerface Re: Deception - 05/24/11 06:36 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
So, I have this urge to send an email to OM who cannot be described as my best friend but certainly a friend who I feel the need to speak to. Id rather not call, he wouldnt pick up. I just want to reinforce how much he hurt my kids who he adored. Im not blaming him as I uncover more about want what on, WW was a very willing participant. This was a clear 2 way street as each of you have hammered home to me for 4 days.

This would be some closure for me as I was basically involved in this affair as the blind dupe. There would be no blame, no threats, no implied threats, just me telling him how he and his girlfriend hurt a lot of people and he needs to hear it from me.

I know the Dr. says WW needs to write the letter cutting off the deal. But, I think the F-off she gave him on the phone 2 weeks ago said enough.

I just need to know how he could sit in my house and then be with my wife the next day. I asked my wife the same thing for 2 weeks and theres really no reason. Just was what it was.

Lastly, this was not some guy at the bar she met weekly for action, this was a family friend so me reaching out to him I think is fair.

Any thoughts?

MikeSmile,

I too felt the need to confront the person who was deceiving me into believing that she was my friend while she was at the same time sneaking around with my husband behind my back. This was so incomprehensible to me that I could not just walk away from it.

I chose to confront her face to face because I felt the whole situation called for that. I needed to do it face to face and I needed to do it for my own self respect.

If you do confront him, be prepared for more lies and accusations about how it is your fault because you just weren't there for her. "We" all know that it is no excuse ... but just be prepared for it.

Also, if you think that it might escalate and you may end up socking the POS (piece of shXX) then stay away from him. Don't end up getting arrested.

Good Luck.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/24/11 07:11 PM
You know, I probably would end up hitting him, I do thinks its appropriate.

Been blowing off work a lot the past 2 weeks to spend time with my WW. Its been really great. I see how little time I actually spent with her and how much I enjoy it. Ive been in Target 3x in past week!!! Anyway, after last nights blow out I noticed her a bit meloncholy (sp?) today. It wasnt my worst lashing I given her but it was ferocious and based on the g-darn dirty details I needed to know so desperately.

I know she's done with OM and she's preoccupied with my 11 yo daughter and some of her personality shifts in the past days, but although I asked and got a resounding "no", I wonder if theres a thought about him? Then Im thinking this is the same Mr. Wonderful who taped her performing on him and basically used her for all he could for a long while, SHE CANT POSSIBLY BE THINKING OF HIM? Im chalking it up to keeping her up from 2-5am with arguing and making up last night. But, this is obviously going to be the wonder I have whenever I see her look into the distance in silence. Sucks for me.

I may be stretching here but I got that kind of time, it reminds me of an HBO movie a few years back about the Nazis and the Final Solution where they planned the execution of millions of Jews. One Nazi comtemplating what they are about to do, tells of anecdote where the moral was "once theyre gone, you may tend to miss them". Not to compare OM to the millions of dead Jews or me and my wife to Himmler and the others but, the correlation however remote struck me. What can I tell you? Im in a strange mood.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/24/11 07:23 PM
Mr. Wondering, you have my situation down to "T". No concerns about him inappropriately with my kids. But that domination thing you touch on is precisely what I see. But, there was no locks on the doors and she was not forbidden to leave. Im using a lot of the techniques in this website and I will do a better job of protecting whats mine. I wrote 2 letters to him, showed the first to my wife and she then opened up with some of the dirty details and I learned it was less dominatioin thing in the beginning. So my first letter was essentially a watered down version of what my wife thought I should know. The next letter which she read this morning has no accusations, no blame, no threats, just facts as I know them. She asked me not to sent it either.

So, either theres more to be known about the dirty details which I think is obvious, or she just doesnt want me to be in touch with OM. I told my wife last night and numerous times today, I know all that I want to know about the sex. I want to move forward.

Youre right, I have no future business with OM and I will keep my distance. He punishment will be a life with his wretched wife.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Deception - 05/24/11 07:50 PM
Mike, I would HIGHLY recommend you have her take a polygraph. It sends a message to the WS that the BS isn't going to accept anything less than the full truth.

The polygrapher can ask a question along the lines of "Is there anything else you are intentionally withholding?" One of the other posters chickadee did this because her H was trickle truthing her as well and there is just no way of knowing otherwise that you've got the full story.

There is more information in the Operation Investigation forum if you are interested...
Posted By: Just Learning Re: Deception - 05/24/11 08:12 PM
HI Mike,

First there is a quick way to insert quotes. Highlight and copy the section you want to quote, then hit the " icon at the top of the insert window You will see {quote} {/quote] I used { rather than the brackets as it would have made it a quote. The copy between the quote and /quote the text you want to quote. This format also works for colors, bold, type size, etc.

Now about resentment. CV mentioned some good points. My favorite quote about resentment is the following
Quote
Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die.


Resentment comes from frustration, anger, and often the feeling of powerlessness. A major source of resentment however is expectations, especially expectations that have not be acheived. You have/had expectations for your marriage and they are not being achieved right now. POJA and radical honesty are good ways to make expectations something that won't lead to resentment. Address these things and you will see that the resentment starts to fade. Take anger for example, it is a secondary emotion driven by pain, fear, frustration, etc. If you are feeling anger, search yourself to figure out what is driving it in you. Then address that feeling.

As CV said the resentment will fade IF you are taking proactive steps in your life. Recovering a marriage is a good proactive step. But, also realize that as you heal, and as time goes on, your memories will remain but the feelings attached to those memories will fade. You may decide to forgive your W and I hope you do, but you should never forget what has happened. If you forgot that how would you learn and go forward? What has to happen is your memories have to detach from the feelings associated with them. Time and patience are the key. I have often suggested that when you start to get frustrated, angry, just stay "Ok Mike T&P, T&P, T&P, ... " You will find that it will help to refocus you.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/24/11 09:34 PM
My Psychologist uses STOP...BREATHE....THINK. All good.

Well, lets talk about fear. I run a quick errand just now and as salesman on the road I spend too much time thinking. Lonely time thinking. But, on this 30 minute errand my mind starts going beserk: how many times did they do this?, what happened here?, and did they ever do this or that?. All these questions just today I told her I was done asking because 1) she said there was nothing else and 2) knowing these answers really hasnt made me any happier. And, as I said, I feel this compassion even after all she did to me and piling on is just not me. So, now I in my car and Im going crazy "why should I give one flying F how sad she is right now, I want to know more intimate stuff and if she doesnt like it, she can move out. I have a job and I doubt judges will looking very kindly on unemployed, adulterer with no family in the area." Im screaming that I should berate her and get every iota of detail I want until Im done or tell her to leave the damn house.

But, I havent finished all the material within, but I think the Dr. would frown on this.

STOP....BREATHE.....THINK.....
Posted By: chickadee1 Re: Deception - 05/24/11 09:45 PM
stop breath think. i think you are allowed you yell in your car.. alone.


What i did last week was wrote all of the questions i had down, sat with them for a few days, revised and gave it to him. he answered them all. some of the questions you have once you write them down may not be important. knowing the answers may not help you, but maybe getting them out of your head will. you can give it to her of not. it helped me this past week.

Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 05/25/11 02:56 AM
Quote
Last night was a watershed moment for the dirty details and at 2:00am we had a knock out, drag down and ended it by having sex.
Oh, yeah. I remember being at that point. blush

Posted By: princessmeggy Re: Deception - 05/25/11 03:04 AM
Quote
But, I havent finished all the material within, but I think the Dr. would frown on this.

rotflmao

A lot of us have been through this, you're in good company.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/25/11 10:03 AM
How do you passed the knowledge that the woman you love allowed herself to someone elses sexual plaything? I got nothing from her when I asked this question last night. I was calm, there was no screaming, just me laying out what I see as her life for the last few years.

If this progam and you are going tell to look to the future and things will begin to become less of a factor in my mind, I just dont see how.
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: Deception - 05/25/11 12:36 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
How do you passed the knowledge that the woman you love allowed herself to someone elses sexual plaything? I got nothing from her when I asked this question last night.

Probably because it's a question that only you can answer.

I don't think I could in such a situation, and would likely be pursuing a D, but guess what - if someone had asked me 6 years ago if I would stay in a M where my spouse invited her OM into our home and had sex with him on our bed, on more than one occasion too, I would have likely said that I'd pursue a D as well. But as of now I'm still M'd to the same W (now a FWW).

BTW, my FWW's OM used her as well - my FWW was one of his "interim GFs" while he was waiting for his fiancee to return from overseas. And my FWW didn't get paid for her role either.

It takes a long time to get over such things, but the pain does eventually subside, the speed of which it does so depending on part on your FWW's commitment to recovery and building a great M with you. I'm just 6 years out from D-Day, and I can tell you that I am no longer "obsessed" over my FWW's acts of infidelity, even though I didn't get anywhere near the level of commitment I was looking for from my FWW.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/25/11 12:52 PM
Well, thankfully, he only ate meals and flirted with my wife in my house. The good stuff happened elsewhere.

Maybe I should be happy my wife went the extra mile to help with our finances in bad times for us? Ha ha.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 05/25/11 01:07 PM
Quote
If this progam and you are going tell to look to the future and things will begin to become less of a factor in my mind, I just dont see how.
That's because you haven't come to terms with past events yet. When your questions are answered to your satisfaction, you'll be able to put them in the proper context of your life and continue on to the next step.

Because adultery is so contrary to everything you built your marital reality on, it may be difficult at times to arrive at an answer that makes sense. Adultery, by definition, does not make sense. For those things, you'll have to come to a point of accepting the non-sense of the action.

Does that make sense? smile
Posted By: chickadee1 Re: Deception - 05/25/11 07:31 PM
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Quote
That's because you haven't come to terms with past events yet. When your questions are answered to your satisfaction, you'll be able to put them in the proper context of your life and continue on to the next step.


you seem to be back and forth on you want to know you dont want to know, there are many unanswered questions for you , and you know hearing the answers hurts. Dont throw the answers back at her, she wont ever give you the full truth. dont get angry in front of her, go outside and scream all of the bad things you want.

would she agree to a poly? it maybe what you need to move forward.


you never told us did you get the book SAA?

I can relate how hard it is to come to terms with the most awful blow you have been dealt. I said to myself in the past i would NEVER stay with someone who cheated on me NEVER. But you dont know until you are in the situation. After D1 we began working on the program and it did work those awful thoughts that you are thinking did fade a bit, really. But it my case i just kept getting hit by a new bus as my H became more O& H. So i know the program works i had a good taste of it.

listen i am still struggling thru my own mess, but these wonderful people here will guide you, if you are willing.

your thread just stuck me.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/25/11 08:32 PM
My wife isnt a big believer in this group therapy buts its taken me off the bridge more than once inthe few days Ive been on here. I begged her to log in and tell her story so others can guide her through not just my problems, but even more importat, her problems.

We are doing fine and we will be fine. The shock gets reduced everyday and my anger and need for specifics lessens too. I will never forget and she'll know I will never forget. I will enjoy the control I have in the marriage and our family. I will not trust her one bit and will protect what is mine much more fiercely. Never was THAT GUY who needed to know where his girl was at every turn, but she turned me into THAT GUY. She ruined her freedom. If she wants me and this family this is some the crap she'll have to eat along with me as I swallow what comes with learning your wife has beeen cheating on you for 5 years. Eventually, 1 - 5- 10 years down the road we can ease the control, but it my decision when. If she doesnt like it, she can leave. Simple as that.
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: Deception - 05/25/11 10:04 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
I will enjoy the control I have in the marriage and our family.
redflag

And you'll end up divorced. You can NOT hold this over her head indefinitely. There will come a point when you should NOT bring it up if you want to continue to move towards recovery.

Are you following the MB plans?
Posted By: Prisca Re: Deception - 05/25/11 10:17 PM
Originally Posted by princessmeggy
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
I will enjoy the control I have in the marriage and our family.
redflag

And you'll end up divorced. You can NOT hold this over her head indefinitely. There will come a point when you should NOT bring it up if you want to continue to move towards recovery.

Are you following the MB plans?

Agreed. Why not build an affair-proof, romantic marriage instead?

Marriage Builders is not about control.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 05/25/11 10:19 PM
Quote
My wife isnt a big believer in this group therapy buts its taken me off the bridge more than once inthe few days Ive been on here. I begged her to log in and tell her story so others can guide her through not just my problems, but even more importat, her problems.
Mike, you and your WW need to understand that we are not professionals. Nor are we therapists. We are survivors of adultery. This is not group therapy. We support here, but we don't do therapy here on this forum. (Although many would argue, and successfully, that our peer support is a sort of therapy.) Dr. Harley does therapy. He rarely posts here. If you want to pursue therapy, Dr. Harley is your fastest pony. Skip your local therapist - they typically have NO clue on how to heal a marriage, and often do more damage than good.

Having said that: BOTH of you have a ways to go to build a strong, loving, affair-proof marriage. You can do that here. The tools are here.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: Deception - 05/25/11 10:25 PM
Mike,

You have several things backwards here and that is causing you some pain. You said
Quote
How do you passed the knowledge that the woman you love allowed herself to someone elses sexual plaything? I got nothing from her when I asked this question last night. I was calm, there was no screaming, just me laying out what I see as her life for the last few years.
She was NOT his plaything, he was her play thing just as much. You keep forgetting that she did this because she wanted to. She acknowledged as much. This is normal for a WS.

She was NOT some submissive woman that had no control. She had as much as he had. After all all she had to do was tell his W what was going on and he was in trouble and she did not. So you are looking at this wrong.

She did it because she wanted to, plain and simple. What you want is for not to "want to" with anyone but you. That takes work on both sides.

You also said
Quote
I will enjoy the control I have in the marriage and our family. I will not trust her one bit and will protect what is mine much more fiercely. Never was THAT GUY who needed to know where his girl was at every turn, but she turned me into THAT GUY. She ruined her freedom. If she wants me and this family this is some the crap she'll have to eat along with me as I swallow what comes with learning your wife has beeen cheating on you for 5 years. Eventually, 1 - 5- 10 years down the road we can ease the control, but it my decision when. If she doesnt like it, she can leave. Simple as that.


With all due respect Mike, that has to be the dumbest dang thing I have ever heard. I mean this is just dumb. If you don't want the marriage divorce her now, it won't ease the pain but you won't waste your life trying to control your W. If you do want to remain married, and she allows you to control her, you will eventually lose her and you won't have had a good marriage in the process.

You should do NOTHING to control her, IF you want to know if she is for real. If she is going to cheat again, you want it to happen NOW, not a decade down the road when you have finally unchained her. What is the matter with you man, you afraid to play to win.

What is a win? You win if you have a loving W that you don't have to control to show she loves you. You win if you find out she is a cheating slut and she cheats real soon so you don't waste years on her. Your strategy is a failed one and will only guaruntee that you will NEVER have a good marriage.

She is putting up with your control now, because she is so ashamed of herself and feels guilty. That will pass as does your pain and when it does, you will only generate resentment and that will end this marriage in a very bad way.

Come on Mike, play to win.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/26/11 12:13 AM
The mood swings are making me look pathetic as I read my back posts. I will lay off the blog a bit and try to figure stuff out on my own. Thanks all.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: Deception - 05/26/11 12:16 AM
Mike,

The mood swings are normal. You are not pathetic, your reactions are normal. We are used to them, hence we post and try add ballast to your thoughts to slow down the swings.

You don't have to do this on your own, that is why folks are here posting to you. We think two very important things:
1. You are worth the effort.
2. Your marriage can be saved in such a way that both you and your W can be happy.

Think about it.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 05/26/11 12:18 AM
MS, before you go, I'd like to say that I was the one who wielded the heaviest brick-bat at you early on. The MS from back then cannot hold a candle to the MS of today.

Thought you should know.......
Posted By: chickadee1 Re: Deception - 05/26/11 01:33 AM
i agree thank you NG!

mike- stop breathe think... this is a good place for you now.
Posted By: Northwood8900 Re: Deception - 05/26/11 05:35 AM
Originally Posted by Just Learning
You also said
Quote
I will enjoy the control I have in the marriage and our family. I will not trust her one bit and will protect what is mine much more fiercely. Never was THAT GUY who needed to know where his girl was at every turn, but she turned me into THAT GUY. She ruined her freedom. If she wants me and this family this is some the crap she'll have to eat along with me as I swallow what comes with learning your wife has beeen cheating on you for 5 years. Eventually, 1 - 5- 10 years down the road we can ease the control, but it my decision when. If she doesnt like it, she can leave. Simple as that.


With all due respect Mike, that has to be the dumbest dang thing I have ever heard. I mean this is just dumb. If you don't want the marriage divorce her now, it won't ease the pain but you won't waste your life trying to control your W. If you do want to remain married, and she allows you to control her, you will eventually lose her and you won't have had a good marriage in the process.

Agreed, JL. From what I've read here, it seems perfectly reasonable for him to be thinking this, what, 2-3 weeks after D-Day?

Moving past that, and feeling safe again, is the hardest part, in my opinion.

Question for you MS-- are you able to verify NC (keylogger, cell phone software)? Are *all* phone numbers changed and his number blocked? With only a short time since the affair, I'm worried for you and hope you have your bases covered.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/26/11 11:09 AM
Maybe its an omen, but for the first time in 15 years I was able to get her some clothes for birthday today and she just came down wearing them and she 1) loves what I picked out, and 2) isnt going to return them the store. In the sea of crapola Im swimming in I will take any signs from above Im in the right direction.

I do thank everyone for all thoughts and sticking with me as I work conquer these demons.
Posted By: jessitaylor Re: Deception - 05/26/11 11:24 AM
Mike,

If anyone us were to read through our own threads we would all look weak and out of control, it is a devastating thing we try to deal with here, just like a death, we all act differently just to survive..........
Hey I think that is a great little step, her b-day something nice from you and she appreciates it.......
that is how it works, little by little and sometimes it's next to nothing that moves you one step forward.........the trick is being patient and hanging in there, every relationship needs a hero..........be the one right now.............
stay and get the support .......
jessi
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/26/11 12:27 PM
Another thing that popped up yesterday is offering me a mixture of angst, pain, and other emotions undefinable. As I mentioned OM had a lot of income so it shouldnt be a major surprise that he bought her stuff. So, I learned about a piece of jewelry he got her a few years back that she sold to a jewelry store for $800 yesterday. So, 1) how much did he value my wife to deserve this jewelry, 2) she must have made him very happy and 3) holy cow, $800 in a sell-back must have been $2,000 when he got it for her. Aside from the wedding ring, I havent spent anywhere near that on jewelry for her all years combined. (She sold before letting me see it. I was pissed about that.)

Again, serves to demoralize me even more but it will pay for dinner tomorrow night when we are out alone for her bday.

So, shes following the plan in most respects by breaking off any ties current and former.

Yay.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 05/26/11 12:43 PM
Originally Posted by jessitaylor
...the trick is being patient and hanging in there, every relationship needs a hero..........be the one right now.............
stay and get the support .......
jessi

Agreed. and for some reason everytime I see "hero" I insert "super" in front of it.... Must be all the comics...

Mike, if it help, using Jessi's analogy, I was the same way for the 1st year after i found out...

I began as "the hulk", moved to "the Punisher", and right now what you need to remember is that you need to be a Spider-man and that with great power comes great responsibility...

Sounds trite, but think about it. You hold all the cards, and how you use them will define the next several years of your relationship.

Cv
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 05/26/11 12:50 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
So, I learned about a piece of jewelry he got her a few years back that she sold to a jewelry store for $800 yesterday. So, 1) how much did he value my wife to deserve this jewelry, 2) she must have made him very happy and 3) holy cow, $800 in a sell-back must have been $2,000 when he got it for her. Aside from the wedding ring, I havent spent anywhere near that on jewelry for her all years combined. (She sold before letting me see it. I was pissed about that.)

Again, serves to demoralize me even more but it will pay for dinner tomorrow night when we are out alone for her bday.

So, shes following the plan in most respects by breaking off any ties current and former.

Yay.

Yeah, well... you know what? You won. 2k piece of jewelry didn't mean much in the end did it? She saw something more valuable in you and stayed with you. That says something about you Mike. Financially, we have struggled most of our lives. only had a few spots over the last 21 almost 22years of marriage. Last OM made 2x as much as me, but only spent 20bucks on a pendant for FWW from Walmart... But a lot or a little, it doesn't matter, it was a manipulation tool. Your worth is found in who you are, not how much you spend on a trinket.

We did a house purge... Collected everything that W wore around OM, everything he might have given her (which consisted of a dollarstore candle, yeah,this guy was a winner), and everything that might have been associated with the A and burned it out back...

Posted By: Gamma Re: Deception - 05/26/11 12:50 PM
Mike,

I havent spent anywhere near that on jewelry for her all years combined.

My W and I were talking about gifts last night, and since we've recovered our marriage they no longer matter. Gifts are often a sign of a relationship lacking in sincerity or equality.

And speaking about gifts what about the gift of remaining a steady and supportive husband for all those years that you got NOTHING back.

You need to purge every gift from OM as well.

God Bless
Gamma
Posted By: helpfordad Re: Deception - 05/26/11 12:51 PM
Mike,

If I may add, from all the help I received from the vets here...

The WS knows you hold the 'get of of this marriage free' card and can walk anytime...BUT, if you decide to recover the M, you will be the only one carrying the load for what seems like an eternity. I didn't think this, but the vets told me and were right.

They also told me it would make me a better man, husband, father -- which it did...and, they told me my WS would eventually clear the fog and SEE I was the 'hero' and it would make a world of difference in recovering the M.

And it has.

Stay strong.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 05/26/11 01:03 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
They also told me it would make me a better man, husband, father -- which it did...and, they told me my WS would eventually clear the fog and SEE I was the 'hero' and it would make a world of difference in recovering the M.

And it has.

I'm in a profiling mood... If I'm Spider man, Help's become Captain America... Just be the best you can be. There is an old Irish saying I am fond of... "you can ask so much of a man, and nothing more". All we are asking is for you to give what you have in the best way you can.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/26/11 02:04 PM
The masochist in me took a quick run over to the jewelry store (she should not have told which store it was) and, of course, I needed to see what he got her. I then spent 10 minutes crafting a brutal text to her at work which i sent. First, she told me she never wore it, BS, Ive seen it on her and I have picture of her wearing it. Im ready to go crazy. Stop, breathe, and thinking isnt working.

CV and all, your words are being heard by me, but my emotions are overriding the sanity you are preaching. Im just going nuts.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 05/26/11 02:11 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
CV and all, your words are being heard by me, but my emotions are overriding the sanity you are preaching. Im just going nuts.

Bro, go get a coffee, relax and think about something else. There will be trickle truth (has any BS here NOT experienced it to a degree?). Just read a book or something. Get your mind off of it. It's just a thing. A piece of metal and rock or whatever. It could have the hope diamond in it and its still worthless compared to a loving husband.

And send your wife an apology for your angry outburst.
Posted By: Jim_Flint Re: Deception - 05/26/11 02:23 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
The masochist in me took a quick run over to the jewelry store (she should not have told which store it was) and, of course, I needed to see what he got her. I then spent 10 minutes crafting a brutal text to her at work which i sent. First, she told me she never wore it, BS, Ive seen it on her and I have picture of her wearing it. Im ready to go crazy. Stop, breathe, and thinking isnt working.

CV and all, your words are being heard by me, but my emotions are overriding the sanity you are preaching. Im just going nuts.

Hi MikeSmile!

You have been getting some very good advice from the MB posters.

I would like to offer you a piece of advice that I received
that really helped in the early part of recovery...

Right now your mind is constantly thinking about the A.

You MUST be able to put a dividing line between the A and recovery.

Take a notebook and PENCIL WITH ERASER and find a quiet corner.

Ask yourself with all honesty and no sarcasm WHAT your W can do RIGHT NOW to give yourself some time to let the healing begin.

For ME it was to get away from my ex-brother and the rest of the family and the situation with all of the reminders of his A with Mrs.Flint for awhile...

AND...

For her to give me UNDIVIDED attention without the pressures of family and friends being a CONSTANT reminder of their affair.

We went on a one week vacation just the two of us and without the pressures were able to have LOTS of SF and doing things OTHER THAN TALKING ABOUT THE AFFAIR that we both enjoyed without the constant reminders of the affair.

Dr.Harley recommends a vacation for just the two of you and it's great advice!!!

God bless.

Jim

Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/26/11 02:24 PM
CV, wish I read your post before calling her at her job where she's in a classroom, got her our of the classroom, and lost my mind on her for 5 minutes. I f-bombed that she better make that the last lie to me or I pack my bags. I swear if she said wore it once or twice to a wedding or party, Id be OK. But, the quote was "I never wore it". And, bingo, right there on our photo shelf is her wearing it at a wedding a couple years ago. Life sucks.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 05/26/11 02:39 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
CV, wish I read your post before calling her at her job where she's in a classroom, got her our of the classroom, and lost my mind on her for 5 minutes. I f-bombed that she better make that the last lie to me or I pack my bags. I swear if she said wore it once or twice to a wedding or party, Id be OK. But, the quote was "I never wore it". And, bingo, right there on our photo shelf is her wearing it at a wedding a couple years ago. Life sucks.

Old Irish saying: "The word once spoken can never be retrieved"

Words once spoken are out there forever. BUT! we can also speak new words. We can make deposits in the love bank, craft our words so that they promote truth and peace, or we can use them to intimidate and tear down.

With a little grace and mercy, our words can be forgiven (by both the BS AND the WS) when spoken in an unloving manner.

Remember the words of Russel Crowe in Gladiator? What we do now echoes for eternity... Cheesy, but it is a call for us men to live a principled life, even when it kills us. We can lose our honor and respect in one foolish act, and spend a lifetime (as your W is finding out) trying to regain it.

Your feelings are normal, but act with your head (as ML or NG told me), not with your heart.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/26/11 02:53 PM
(Email to my wife):

I apologize for what I wrote and said. It shouldnt have happened especially on your birthday, a day we both agreed is going to mark "new us's".



I am upset and Ive been told what you are doing is called trickle-truth as more things become clearer in you memory, you will let them out and its a good thing.



I know you dont like that website Im using but in truth, I am in awe of how much they actually help me. Just wish I read the post after I told them about my jewelry store visit and the text to you and BEFORE I called you at work. One of people who has been dead on with our situation and who's posts I rely on said, "Bro, go get a coffee, relax and think about something else. There will be trickle truth (has any betrayed spouse here NOT experienced it to a degree?). Just read a book or something. Get your mind off of it. It's just a thing. A piece of metal and rock or whatever. It could have the hope diamond in it and its still worthless compared to a loving husband.

And send your wife an apology for your angry outburst."



And I now sending you an apology because I am your loving husband and I want to always be your loving husband.



Just please understand the pain Im in when I write and say the things I do and its not always "me", its some other guy Im trying to not be.



Love,



Michael

Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 05/26/11 02:56 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
(Email to my wife):

I apologize for what I wrote and said. It shouldnt have happened especially on your birthday, a day we both agreed is going to mark "new us's".



I am upset and Ive been told what you are doing is called trickle-truth as more things become clearer in you memory, you will let them out and its a good thing.



I know you dont like that website Im using but in truth, I am in awe of how much they actually help me. Just wish I read the post after I told them about my jewelry store visit and the text to you and BEFORE I called you at work. One of people who has been dead on with our situation and who's posts I rely on said, "Bro, go get a coffee, relax and think about something else. There will be trickle truth (has any betrayed spouse here NOT experienced it to a degree?). Just read a book or something. Get your mind off of it. It's just a thing. A piece of metal and rock or whatever. It could have the hope diamond in it and its still worthless compared to a loving husband.

And send your wife an apology for your angry outburst."



And I now sending you an apology because I am your loving husband and I want to always be your loving husband.



Just please understand the pain Im in when I write and say the things I do and its not always "me", its some other guy Im trying to not be.



Love,



Michael

Mike,

You just made a grown man cry. Well done.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 05/26/11 02:57 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
The masochist in me took a quick run over to the jewelry store (she should not have told which store it was) and, of course, I needed to see what he got her. I then spent 10 minutes crafting a brutal text to her at work which i sent. First, she told me she never wore it, BS, Ive seen it on her and I have picture of her wearing it. Im ready to go crazy. Stop, breathe, and thinking isnt working.

CV and all, your words are being heard by me, but my emotions are overriding the sanity you are preaching. Im just going nuts.
Easy, Mike. Calm down, here. You need to be very clear about something: you are assigning an importance to a piece of jewelry based on a dollar amount. Lose that. It's not the fact that a piece of expensive jewelry was given to her. It's the fact that another man gave her a token of his affection. And that's what happens in an affair. My H's AP gave him junk. Really. Cheap junk that made me embarrassed for her. Then I realized it wasn't the cost of the thing, it was the perceived value, which was high at the time because of the person giving it to him.

The fact is that another man gave your WW something that he had no right to give her. And I understand your anger about that. It's pretty frustrating, I know.

Now, having said that smile turn that piece of jewelry into something good for you and your WW. Have that nice dinner. Go get a nice room and see a play. Use every penny on your marriage. That would be a fitting way to put that token to work for you.

If the idea of doing that turns your stomach, give the money to a battered women's shelter. Or your local animal protective league. Use it for good.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Deception - 05/26/11 03:12 PM
Hey, Mike!

I suggest a new strategy; SIT DOWN, SHUT UP, AND LISTEN!

Quit taking any action toward your WW until you pass it through here first.

GOT IT?

Your back n forth crap (blow up, kiss azz) is going to shoot you in the foot.

KNOCK IT OFF!
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/26/11 03:30 PM
HHH-Precisely what I need. A major [censored] kicking to set me straight. If my pop was alive, he would have done it 2 weeks ago.

I will and actually I have been trying to run my thoughts and actions by you guys first, but you know, you get crazy.

I feel like a mental patient.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Deception - 05/26/11 03:35 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
HHH-Precisely what I need. A major [censored] kicking to set me straight. If my pop was alive, he would have done it 2 weeks ago.

I will and actually I have been trying to run my thoughts and actions by you guys first, but you know, you get crazy.

I feel like a mental patient.


Yeah, dude. I know.

You ain't gonna get it all right every day.

Put on the breaks, and quit letting the crazy drive!

>.<
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Deception - 05/26/11 03:36 PM
Something to keep in mind is that she is basically in the habit of not telling the truth after having a SSL (secret second life) for so long. It will be hard work for her to become radically honest. Has she admitted this or does she not even acknowledge there is a problem with being honest?

Trickle truth is very dangerous to your R and makes huge LB$ withdrawals, I hope she understands this. Give your W time to answer questions and make sure she understands that she won't be punished for giving you the truth.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/26/11 03:42 PM
Just cant promise her I wont go nuts if I hear a truth I dont like. So, shes understandably gun shy about letting any more out.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Deception - 05/26/11 03:44 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
Just cant promise her I wont go nuts if I hear a truth I dont like. So, shes understandably gun shy about letting any more out.

If you want the truth, YES YOU CAN.

She should be able to feel safe in being honest with you, Mike. She WON'T be honest if she doesn't feel safe doing so!

twoxfour
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Deception - 05/26/11 03:54 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
Just cant promise her I wont go nuts if I hear a truth I dont like. So, shes understandably gun shy about letting any more out.

Then you are just making the problem worse. If she tells you something that makes you angry, then excuse yourself from the room until you can get control. She needs to know that she can tell you the truth without threat of an AO or DJ. Period. Or she is going to continue to lie to you.

and I don't know if you answered my question. Has she admitted radical honesty is a problem?

It is helpful if you answer questions as much as possible. Someone asked you if you are continuing to snoop to verify NC which I was curious about myself and I don't know if I saw the answer to that.

I also asked you about a poly earlier. Have you given any thought to that?
Posted By: markos Re: Deception - 05/26/11 03:59 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
HHH-Precisely what I need. A major [censored] kicking to set me straight. If my pop was alive, he would have done it 2 weeks ago.

Hi, Mike; my wife was just reading your thread and requested that I come kick your [censored]. wink

First off:
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
Just cant promise her I wont go nuts if I hear a truth I dont like.

This is a ridiculous bit of blame shifting. This is the same kind of logic a wayward spouse uses. You and you alone are responsible for your angry outbursts. People can and do learn to control their temper. Dr. Harley is one of them. Nobody can MAKE you lose your temper. That is a response you make yourself. You are not going to have a marriage worth saving if you do not eliminate this serious Love Buster.

Get ahold of yourself, buddy. Nobody blames you for feeling upset, but if you are not going to control yourself then you are dangerous for any woman to be around.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/26/11 04:18 PM
Working on all of what all of you have suggested. I swear. I guess I have a ways to go.

If it helps, I did just run out and got her a dozen roses and delivered them to where she works. Had someone bring them to her. Thats Love Bucket money in the right direction, isnt it?

Got her a birthday gift she likes. More LB money for me.

OK I lost a bunch of in the jewelry text and phone call tirades, this I know.

Im a work in progress.
Posted By: markos Re: Deception - 05/26/11 04:35 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
Working on all of what all of you have suggested.

Doing what, exactly?

Quote
If it helps, I did just run out and got her a dozen roses and delivered them to where she works. Had someone bring them to her. Thats Love Bucket money in the right direction, isnt it?

Got her a birthday gift she likes. More LB money for me.

OK I lost a bunch of in the jewelry text and phone call tirades, this I know.

Love Bank deposits are nice, but you will never be able to fill the account if withdrawals continue to be made. Over time your withdrawals will hurt her more and more and take out more love units from your account each time.

They have to stop. You cannot make your marriage work if they do not STOP. Not just cut them down to once a week or once a month or so. It needs to become a NEVER thing. Each angry outburst is a tragic and abusive mistake, and you need to view it this way, not just assure her that you are "working on it."

(Side note: I hope you are doing something to make love bank deposits besides just buying gifts. Surely she wants more out of marriage than gifts. Gifts are nice affection for SOME women, not all, and no woman wants gifts alone for affection, and affection is only one need and you need to work on meeting FIVE.)

Suggestion:

Tell your wife this:

"Honey, I am so sorry that I blew up at you. I was completely wrong to do that, and there is no excuse. No matter what, you do not deserve being attacked and punished like that. I am sick to be losing my temper like that, and I am going to get help to control my angry outbursts so you never have to experience this again."

Go do it. Consider it an assignment from the board. wink

(By the way, I just got done with anger management therapy this week. I can promise you that your marriage will not recover if you do not KNOCK IT OFF and take care of your temper problem, IMMEDIATELY.)
Posted By: markos Re: Deception - 05/26/11 04:42 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
Im a work in progress.

How quickly can you make progress? You have no time to lose, Mike.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Deception - 05/26/11 04:49 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
Working on all of what all of you have suggested. I swear. I guess I have a ways to go.

If it helps, I did just run out and got her a dozen roses and delivered them to where she works. Had someone bring them to her. Thats Love Bucket money in the right direction, isnt it?

Got her a birthday gift she likes. More LB money for me.

OK I lost a bunch of in the jewelry text and phone call tirades, this I know.

Im a work in progress.


Ok, so here's the ticket; STOP making an [censored] of yourself with the angry outbursts, and CONTINUE making the deposits.

The roses don't mean a thing if they are buried in manure.

Capice?
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/26/11 04:54 PM
Didnt you read my email I sent her? Mea culpa. Byegones. Onward and upward.

Affection? Between absolute degrading her and grilling her and wanting to verbally rip her to shreads, the affection between us has been like 2 teenagers sneaking kisses and hugs and tush grab as much as possible. We havent kissed like this in many years. Like making out. Its fun. We take walks alone. Doing the program, man.

Shes on board. She hates what she became and what she did to me and our kids. We are filling our Love Bank at every turn. I had my mom take the kids tomorrow so we can have a romantic dinner (courtesy of OMs braclet, sorry couldnt help myself and we did have it planned before I knew about it) where will are going to keep the rekindleation of the thing. Recreational companionship. Love Bank deposit.

I know this cant be a situaiton of me blowing my stack and then offering a bauble to make it better. Markos and his wife will find me and beat me bad.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 05/26/11 05:12 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
Just cant promise her I wont go nuts if I hear a truth I dont like. So, shes understandably gun shy about letting any more out.
Well, you're going to have to yank up your boot straps and change that philosophy, post-haste. Here's what you're really saying: "I demand that you tell me the truth. If I don't like what I hear, I'm going to punish you severely for it."

When you tell a wayward that, what do you think they'll do? They will SHUT UP. Waywards are all about self-preservation. You've just slammed the openness & honesty door shut, squarely in her face.

Apologize to her for allowing your emotions to control you and calm down. I know that's an incredibly difficult task. You should have seen some of MY finer moments after D-Day. And they didn't help us a bit! They damaged the progress of our healing!

I am telling you this as someone who has been there - the truth may be horribly difficult to process. But you're going to need to if the two of you are going to heal. Ask for the truth. When you get it, thank her for her honesty.

Practice saying "thank you for your honesty" aloud until you're able to say it and mean it.
Posted By: chickadee1 Re: Deception - 05/26/11 06:37 PM
come on mike! she is going to tell you more that you dont want to know, listen thank her. then walk away and scream to yourself. vent here! from day one of you being here you are changing, keep it up. you are not a mental patient!

Listen, i am wearing a stupid halter monitor, because of the dreads i have, everyone has been there. Its how you deal with it that help defines how you move forward.

take your W out for her birthday, spend that money!!! dont go to the same old place, some where new.
Posted By: markos Re: Deception - 05/26/11 07:07 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
Didnt you read my email I sent her?

I did, and frankly, your apology email was terrible. You should never talk to your wife about her faults when you apologize for yours.

You had an angry outburst.

That's your fault.

I suggest you make a new apology and apologize just for that and leave her faults out of it. I can't possibly emphasize the importance of this enough to you.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/26/11 07:32 PM
Tell me how you realy feel? Dont hold back.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 05/26/11 07:40 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
Tell me how you realy feel? Dont hold back.
rotflmao
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 05/26/11 11:01 PM
Originally Posted by Jim_Flint
Hi MikeSmile!

You have been getting some very good advice from the MB posters.

I would like to offer you a piece of advice that I received
that really helped in the early part of recovery...

Right now your mind is constantly thinking about the A.

You MUST be able to put a dividing line between the A and recovery.

Take a notebook and PENCIL WITH ERASER and find a quiet corner.

Ask yourself with all honesty and no sarcasm WHAT your W can do RIGHT NOW to give yourself some time to let the healing begin.

For ME it was to get away from my ex-brother and the rest of the family and the situation with all of the reminders of his A with Mrs.Flint for awhile...

AND...

For her to give me UNDIVIDED attention without the pressures of family and friends being a CONSTANT reminder of their affair.

We went on a one week vacation just the two of us and without the pressures were able to have LOTS of SF and doing things OTHER THAN TALKING ABOUT THE AFFAIR that we both enjoyed without the constant reminders of the affair.

Dr.Harley recommends a vacation for just the two of you and it's great advice!!!

God bless.

Jim

I agree with Jim. The pen and paper in particular is a good idea.

CV
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/27/11 12:13 AM
Just had a great bday dinner for her with the kids. We are going to get thru this. Our recovery is in the future so what was was. Im sure there'll be a revelation here and there and but she's confident as much as possible I wont go off the deep end. I taking all the advice and as I said we're using her bday as a redo.

We have tomorrow night alone and day 2 of the redo will even better. Trying to change my attitude, trying to move away from the contempt and resentment as much as 18-19 days out from d-day will let you. Someone said its a 3-week thing where the initial shock of the A begins to ebb. I will take that.

I do love her. And we have a lot in common, we both didnt like the person she was and we are committed to the future. Thanks to all of you for the brutal honesty, forthright advice, and best wishes.

I will keep you posted on how we do.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 05/27/11 12:22 AM
I feel like a mental patient.

At some point we all do. But we're here to be your straightjacket and rubber-room to prevent you from hurting yourself.

The next time you feel an AO coming on STOP!

Disengage, come here. AO at us! Hey, I'm a big boy, direct it at me personally - my mascara won't run!
Posted By: Surfer88 Re: Deception - 05/27/11 12:55 AM
MikeSmile,

I hope you have a great weekend! Sorry to be a Debbie Downer, but me thinks you are mistaking the "light" for the headlight. You have 1000 positive things in front of you! But, I sense that you're not being realistic in this "recovery". Oh, one millions times possible, and I wish that for you!!!

Had to share honestly. Others will weigh in. I may be WAY off as NeverGuessed hasn't thrown a foul (yes, on purpose) flag where as I am. ? I may be way off base. I dunno. Seems like too much too soon. Thus, mistakes.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 05/27/11 02:29 AM
Originally Posted by Surfer88
MikeSmile,

I hope you have a great weekend! Sorry to be a Debbie Downer, but me thinks you are mistaking the "light" for the headlight. You have 1000 positive things in front of you! But, I sense that you're not being realistic in this "recovery". Oh, one millions times possible, and I wish that for you!!!

Had to share honestly. Others will weigh in. I may be WAY off as NeverGuessed hasn't thrown a foul (yes, on purpose) flag where as I am. ? I may be way off base. I dunno. Seems like too much too soon. Thus, mistakes.
Oh. Good Lord, yes. Mike, please don't assume you two are good to go. You SO are not. Do you understand that?
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 05/27/11 02:33 AM
Quote
And we have a lot in common, we both didnt like the person she was and we are committed to the future.
Uh-huh. So, what are you doing to avoid the next affair? Are you planning to use any of the tools here? WHAT IS YOUR PLAN TO RECOVER YOUR MARRIAGE.

"Getting back to 'normal' is NOT an acceptable answer.

WHAT IS YOUR PLAN.
Posted By: markos Re: Deception - 05/27/11 03:45 AM
You cannot go back to the marriage that led to the affair.
Posted By: markos Re: Deception - 05/27/11 03:55 AM
Originally Posted by markos
I suggest you make a new apology and apologize just for that and leave her faults out of it. I can't possibly emphasize the importance of this enough to you.

Did you?
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/27/11 11:22 AM
1. yes Ive apologized for the blow outs sans the condescending reasons for them, we are both aware of why and Im learning its taking major steps backwards to rehash them at every turn. forward growth, from you say and Im hearing, starts by moving forward from the past.

2. I know we're going to have bad times as naive as Iam some huge ways, I do see the probability of some episodes. Its up to me to walk away, come here or go to my car, work out my problem and move forward.

3. And more than anything else, I am not saying we're healed and life is like it was pre-A. Its not. And it never will be because pre-A time lead to this. We are in the process all of you are in. We've stepped up some the easy things like affection, conversation, and others, but I will not say we are healed. I still get the flushed feeling throughout my body at times when I think about it, even this morning in fact. I still have astonishment at the level of deception she was willing and able to maintain. I still have issue with many, many things. But, you all have guided in the best direction to succeed, unfortunately I didnt always listen.

4. The marriage that was isnt. Its different. Im different. Ive made declarations and decisions I formerly never got involved in which in hindsight was a big problem. I am not over what happened to us! I am however over hurting her more than she hurts already.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 05/27/11 01:46 PM
Quote
4. The marriage that was isnt. Its different. Im different. Ive made declarations and decisions I formerly never got involved in which in hindsight was a big problem. I am not over what happened to us! I am however over hurting her more than she hurts already.
Mike, you are very, very early into recovery. You are going to be going through some emotions and actions in the coming days that you haven't envisioned yet. Please stay here and keep us posted on your progress. I am concerned about you.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Deception - 05/27/11 02:40 PM
Forgive me if you have answered this 100 million times already, Mike, but have you ordered or read any of the Marriage Builders books?

Have you been reading the online articles?

I suggest that if you haven't, that you begin to. And I mean REALLY read them.

Print them out, and read them with a pen and possibly a highlighter in hand. Make notations on the things that do and don't make sense. On those that you struggle with understanding, make your notations to ask here.

Righty o?
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/27/11 03:06 PM
"Forgive me if you have answered this 100 million times already, Mike, but have you ordered or read any of the Marriage Builders books?

Have you been reading the online articles?"

Yes, been reading a lot of the online material. Bought a couple of the books earlier in the week. Im in the program. We're striving.

Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/27/11 03:07 PM
Still dont know how to make those boxes you guys make with others' quotes in there. Im fairly computer literate too.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 05/27/11 03:28 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
Still dont know how to make those boxes you guys make with others' quotes in there. Im fairly computer literate too.

The box above? Click the "quote" button. it should automatically quote the text you are replying to.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/27/11 04:59 PM
Originally Posted by celticvoyager
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
Still dont know how to make those boxes you guys make with others' quotes in there. Im fairly computer literate too.

The box above? Click the "quote" button. it should automatically quote the text you are replying to.

Woohoo. Its all coming together now.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 05/27/11 05:08 PM
Don't be afraid to check out that happy face icon on the top left of the reply box. weightlifter smile
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/27/11 06:14 PM
I dont know all about this program yet, but I saw on the refridgerator 2 pictures of my WW each with one of our kids wearing that insane bracelet he gave her. I did a cursory look around the house and those seem to be the only 2. They are pictures of our kids in class bdays a few year back.

I here to cool down. Shes at work and wont be back for another 90 mins. Yes, I got a little of that "thing" that happens. I stopped, breathed, thought it through, took a pill, and now Im here.

Dont want to ruin tonight. Do I take the pictures down without telling her? (Caveat-Im sure if I went through albums and all our pictures that bracelot would be on her often. It was very nice.) Do I show her and ask her if she'd like it down and if she say OK, do I take the high road and demand it stay up? Be the bigger person?

You know, only 2 people (now 3) knew that thing was not bought by me. So when she wore with it me, I was the giver, in theory. Nope, cant hang my hat on that. Nevermind.

Not sure what to do, I loved those pictures with and my boy and her with my daughter.

Does the program say they come down? Do I do it discreetly? I think she'd notice 2 different photos changed anyway.

I wait for you input. But Im calm. They'll be no yelling. Im looking forward to seeing her. We've texted but I miss her. Truth.
Posted By: reading Re: Deception - 05/27/11 06:20 PM
My 2 cents

I would leave them for now.
Should you two stay on a road that heads to recovery, perhaps you can talk about the photos then......far into the distance.

Meanwhile, keep in mind, though the bracelet has a story, it is just a thing. A bracelet.

Most likely after seven years of being betrayed you will need to learn to deal with triggers as a fact of life.

Try to focus on how darn cute the kids are with her in the pics for now.
Posted By: LuvsDavid Re: Deception - 05/27/11 06:27 PM
when you do talk to her about them you can always have them scanned and have someone photoshop the braclet out of them. It is easy to do and the picture will be better than new.

I used to work at a printing company and they did stuff like that all the time.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/27/11 06:29 PM
I think tonight is an important night for my marriage as we will be alone and Im really getting nervous Im going to have trouble not getting into a war with her. Im concerned a little.

By the way, so you know, my wife's best friend from college and her husband are the greatest people we know. They completely impartial and have be almost as good as you guys helping me through the first days. I ran to their house for an overnight the first week for some of their counseling. And my WW friend is counseling my wife. And doing amazing things for both of us. Anyway, she said take the pictures without saying anything put something new up.

High road. Im there.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 05/27/11 07:07 PM
Quote
Anyway, she said take the pictures without saying anything put something new up.
I'll throw my thoughts in, here, too: if those photos were on MY refrigerator and they were upsetting to me, I'd take them down. AND I would tell my wayward that they were upsetting to me, and why. Not in anger, because that anger would be misplaced. You need to remove those photos as a way of caring for YOU. Because they are triggers for you.

If they are photos you really like, put them somewhere safe. Maybe later on you could consider photo-shopping the bracelet out, as was suggested.

Posted By: jessitaylor Re: Deception - 05/27/11 07:15 PM
I agree with Maritalbliss,

If they were triggers for me they wouldn't be in the open for me to deal with every day...........discuss it gently, she should understand.......
enjoy your evening.....
jessi
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/27/11 07:43 PM
It was done gently. Picture removed. It was textbook.
Posted By: Grace4me Re: Deception - 05/27/11 08:14 PM
That's awesome Mike! Now hold it together and have a great night with your W :-)
Posted By: Just Learning Re: Deception - 05/27/11 09:05 PM
Mike,

I go out of town for a day or so, and look at the trouble you get yourself into. naughty Fortunately, you have gotten excellent advice.

Mike years ago a wrote to a poster here about "fighting" for their marriage. I don't recall all of it, but let me point out, that you "fight" for a marriage by NOT FIGHTING YOUR W. You work WITH her to rebuild this marriage.

The bracelet/necklace which ever it was, is a trigger, so will other things. Why don't you sit down with your W and discuss this with her. She clearly understands as she sold the jewelry without you even asking. Ask her to search and remove triggers such as photos of her with OM, you with OM, her wearing things OM gave her, etc. Bring her into the process OK?

Next someone very smartly pointed out that since she has lied to you for 4? 7? years, that lying is going to be hard for her to stop. You need to be aware of this, but so does she. It is second nature to her and you know why. She needs to know this so that she is more sensitive to her own lies. My bet is that it is almost automatic now, and that must change. It will not change overnight. Discuss it with her, see if she has some ideas of how the both of you can address this issue. Her lies hurt you worse than her sleeping with OM, and if they continue they will hurt you more. YOu both need to acknowledge this and start to develop a plan to address it.

Finally, Mike anger is a lousy way to handle anything. A better way to address it is to see what is driving the anger and focus on that, and then let it pass. You don't have to prove to your W that you are hurt. You don't have to prove to your W that you are a victim. But, you do have to prove to your W that you will not remain a victim and so far you have not done a great job of it.

You don't want her pity, you want her love and respect. Yelling, and whining are not going to engender either love or respect.

This is early Mike, the time line is measured in years. You have the time, use it productively. I will tell you this, your silence is far more powerful, than your NOISE (yelling). But, even more effective is your ability to think, and then address what you are thinking, what you need, what you desire, and where you want to be.

Hang in there.

JL
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 05/27/11 09:52 PM
Quote
I will tell you this, your silence is far more powerful, than your NOISE (yelling).
Quoted for truth.

Mike, I mentioned that I had my 'moments' after D-Day. You ain't heard the half of it, friend. frown I ranted, I raved. I threw things. I struck my husband. I got drunk and accidentally injured myself while in my drunken grief and rage, requiring a trip to the hospital. Very nice. Not. It was not pretty. I was not pretty.

Every time I allowed my hurt and anger to unleash in such a negative way, it harmed both of us. It colored the atmosphere in our home and our children felt it.

And my H became numb to it. His word. That was not the response that I wanted. What response did I want? I wanted it to never have happened. What I was doing to 'make it go away' was not working, and was harming us. That's when I started printing things off MB. That's when I ordered SAA. That's when I sat down with him and really started talking. And talking. The more we talked about the A and the damage it had done, the more bonded we became. It was almost magical, the way it worked.

Anger against your WW is not your friend. I'm glad you were able to remove those photos without a scene. And I agree that you need to talk to your WW about the concept of triggers. You're going to be dealing with those for a while. She should be on board with the concept and help you through those triggers.

And YOU, JL: I don't recall you asking for permission to leave town. naughty We'll let it go this time. laugh
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Deception - 05/27/11 09:57 PM
Originally Posted by Just Learning
Next someone very smartly pointed out that since she has lied to you for 4? 7? years, that lying is going to be hard for her to stop. You need to be aware of this, but so does she. It is second nature to her and you know why. She needs to know this so that she is more sensitive to her own lies. My bet is that it is almost automatic now, and that must change. It will not change overnight. Discuss it with her, see if she has some ideas of how the both of you can address this issue. Her lies hurt you worse than her sleeping with OM, and if they continue they will hurt you more. YOu both need to acknowledge this and start to develop a plan to address it.

That was me...and you said what I was kinda trying to get at, only 1000 times better. Please don't sweep this under the rug, your W has a lot of work to do in this area (O&H) and she is going to need your help, Mike.

Hope you both have a great night smile
Posted By: chickadee1 Re: Deception - 05/27/11 10:25 PM
good job mike! I was the quite one- only 2 outbursts, thew my renewal wedding dress at him and a roll of toilet paper. not a shining moment. the silence was very powerful for him, it showed him i was in control of this. he says he was in awe of my calmness. hope you have a good weekend. Did you buy her a bday present? thought i'd ask.

having friends support both of you during this time is helpful, are they responding to her positively?

put a picture of you your W and the kids in its place.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 05/27/11 10:27 PM
Quote
thew my renewal wedding dress at him and a roll of toilet paper.
rotflmao I'm so sorry, chicka, but this struck me as hilarious! The dress and tp at the same time?
Posted By: chickadee1 Re: Deception - 05/27/11 10:49 PM
it was funny. i did laugh after. not at same time 2 diff nights. the tp was because he was crying. giver.....

its still funny.

Posted By: chickadee1 Re: Deception - 05/27/11 10:51 PM
i know mike asked but i can figure out the laughing guy. and it jump when i quote
Posted By: LuvsDavid Re: Deception - 05/27/11 10:59 PM
You have to be on full screen reply and the Smiles will be right above where are are typing. Not the ones right under your subject line. twoxfour I still like this one the best. kiss
Posted By: Just Learning Re: Deception - 05/27/11 11:46 PM
Quote
And YOU, JL: I don't recall you asking for permission to leave town. We'll let it go this time.


Yes Mamam doh2 It won't happen again.

JL
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 05/27/11 11:58 PM
Originally Posted by Just Learning
Quote
And YOU, JL: I don't recall you asking for permission to leave town. We'll let it go this time.


Yes Mamam doh2 It won't happen again.

JL
You're way too valuable. Now don't go thinking you're all that. grin
Posted By: Just Learning Re: Deception - 05/28/11 06:37 AM
Quote
Now don't go thinking you're all that.


Don't worry MB I'm too old for that. sigh Thanks for the compliment though. I like everyone else here try to do my best. I think Mike is one that can make it but it will be tough for awhile given the length of the affair.

Good thing he has you and others to keep him straight.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/28/11 10:05 AM
Uneven. The best way to describe last night. I fought the need to open up a war and I lost. Brought up the past by needing to know more about quantity of sex. Because someone mentioned it, I wanted to know how much he got. And, on the way to the restaurant I started in. I know the answers, but I had to ask. It was like any new relationship where the 2 had unending amount of time to do whatever. I was calm, but even calm questioning doesnt help. I kept it going during dinner until she said stop.

We got home and had a long conversation, she cried, I cried we made committments. She understood my need to know. But, she said I was asking the same questions hoping for a different answer which she could provide, but would be lying.

Im hoping the books coming next week can help me with the enormity of their relationship, this wasnt a one time hookup at bar or weekend in Vegas, this was a long time thing. That, my friends is the core of my issue, how do I just stop thinking about the day in, day out love affair she had. I know and remember how much new couples have each other. I know he asked for it everyday, she says she obliged some days others she ran. If I guess once a week for all that time, I get physically sick.

I dont want to hurt my kids, but at some point seeing their father having mental breakdowns is not good either. Would me leaving reduce these breakdowns? Dont know. Probably not.

Me leaving has a lot of charm to it despite the sheer disaster it will cause. We would have to move, put my kids in new schools, Id have to find a place, shed have to find a place, the reason for the break up would be known, her reputation would be known, so theyd have to leave our community. My kids would hate her for what she did and they would learn in its entirity the reason for the divorce. And, in reality, if I fought for the kids, I might be able to get sole custody as I have a full time job, family, and didnt have a 5 year adulterous affair. So, I guess its an excercise in self defense, but THIS is how I can even out this MF'er in one move. Id be free to find someone who wants me and wont be swayed by superficial BS. And, she'd be ruined.

Somebody said I won the battle, I got her. I told her those words, but they ring hollow when I think about her laying with OM for month after month.

Im in pretty bad shape as it turns out.
Posted By: Tanam Re: Deception - 05/28/11 10:22 AM
Mike,
I understand exactly where you are, my WH had a similar LTA for 6 years with someone I thought was a friend, he too struggled with the enormity of the deception in particular over he last 18 months and did try to end it repeatedly during that time but failed. (yes he is a weak willed F**k wit).

I know they were having occasional sex, I hate the pictures in my head but have over the last 5 months been learning how to put them out of my head. I use visualisations mostly, I either watch her slipping down the sink hole with the dirty washing up water or I turn up the brightness on the pictures till they are just white light. It takes practice and time but mostly works.

In terms of managing triggers, and there are lots, I am now able to say...'oh yes, a trigger, and deliberately put my mind onto something good for me, sometimes a pic of us having a good time, a memory of something nice he said lately etc. Hang on in there, breathe and relax. Another thing that does work is smiling, yes I know it feels a bit odd to be grinning away to yourself in the car but it changes something at a deeper level. No idea how it works, something to do with brain chemistry but it does.

My thoughts are with you!
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/28/11 10:23 AM
Of all the questions I want to ask and cannot seem to do is if she has a plan in place if I leave. She has no family nearby, works a part time job, and has little nearterm prospects.

She must have put some thought into it but I dont want to scare her as I did say Im sticking around.

You see, Im stuck. And I told her this. Between my need to be a full time father and the anguish under which I live everyday. Its just not fair. I want to the long term affair and nice things she experienced. I want to hurt her like she me.

Im stuck living this nightmare. I cannot disappoint my babies. WW is not going to hurt them twice.
Posted By: Tanam Re: Deception - 05/28/11 10:34 AM
mmmm recognise those feelings but I also know that a RA is not they way to do it, you can never hurt her they way she hurt you as the circumstances are different. She got in too deep and then was stuck, you would be making a choice, that is not the same. That is not minimising in any way the hurt she has caused you.

Don't do anything you can't undo.

Don't ask her is she has a plan, if you leave she will have to make a plan but for now, mostly what I read is you want to recover. Why torture yourself with her plans? If you left would it be any of your concern what she did, other than about the kids?

I am no MB vet but a veteran of your feelings, listen to the advice here, act on it, it does work, I just wish I had found it earlier and then would not have made the mistakes I made, indeed might already have either moved out or recovery would be a lot further forward!
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: Deception - 05/28/11 11:11 AM
Mike, you are very early into all of this and I know it must seem overwhelming, considering that this was a LTA. I just wanted to share something that Dr. Harley said about getting the details.

Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
My advice is to discuss everything there is to discuss in one marathon setting, and then never bring up the subject again. When you have time for undivided attention, the affair should never be discussed, as that would be one of the enemies of good conversation, "dwelling on mistakes of the past."

Affairs can easily be over-analyzed. Don't let yourselves fall into that black hole. Once extraordinary precautions are in place, focus on the future, not on the past.
I'm not saying you don't need your answers, because only you can say how much you need to know. You're just now catching up about things going on in your marriage when your W has known the details for a very long time. If you feel like you can't control your emotions during this radically honest Q&A session, sometimes it's better to do it in front of a professional.

I am so sorry for your pain. It's been said that some people feel that the pain from an affair can be worse than the pain from losing a child. I agree. It's that bad. Losing a child is something beyond a person's control. Adultery (in the end) is a cold, calculated choice. It doesn't "just happen." Sorry, I digress and that's a subject for another soapbox.

Anyway, when the books arrive, devour them. You (and your family) have a very long road ahead of you, but you can come out of this with a better-than-ever marriage, if that's the route you choose to take.
Posted By: LongWayFromHome Re: Deception - 05/28/11 11:31 AM
Mike, Don't assume your FWW had any sort of a plan at all. I don't believe most waywards think anything about the affair all the way through. From beginning to end, nothing makes any sense. That's what drives some of us crazy; it's not the kind of thinking we can relate to.

Yes, in some ways it would be easier to leave the marriage. I have considered it, too, and we don't have the children at home anymore, so it would be easier in a way for me. But after considering that "leave" decision all the way through, I decided that there was too much to lose.

Either choice kind of sucks, doesn't it? If you stay, you and your wife MUST get past all this and move toward recovery. It will take enormous effort absolutely. But if you leave, there will be the financial and emotional implications to work through, and of course, the pain your children will suffer. Adultery SUCKS!

The thing that kept me in my marriage is that I didn't want the affair to "win." My husband is desperately sorry and would do anything to somehow go back and change what he did. We both talked about how easy it would be to just give up and move on with our own lives. But it would have been more of a loss than persevering in restoring romantic love. Yes, I still feed sadness and it's going to take a while for me to feel that love toward my husband I once had. But he, like your wife, is willing to keep on the path to restoration. So that's where we're headed.

We betrayed spouses can totally completely relate to you. But consider that it's possible in 2 - 5 years, you and your wife could be in love with each other again. She may come to truly appreciate your forgiveness and love. You and she may move into your later years with a very strong marriage, yes, with the scars of adultery, but you will have come out the other side.
Posted By: Deacon_Blues Re: Deception - 05/28/11 01:27 PM
Quote
I fought the need to open up a war and I lost.
You made a choice.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/28/11 01:51 PM
Originally Posted by Possum
Quote
I fought the need to open up a war and I lost.
You made a choice.


Yes, but I didnt choose for my wife to be a cheater. And the wars are a symptom of that. I, once again, apologized for the questions and she, once again, apologized for my hurt.

And, I agree with what was said earlier, I dont think she went looking for this to happen but it snowballed and then your stuck in there.


As I have read a lot of the material on these pages from the DR., I hope Im not putting too much stock in these books Im getting. Im really hoping they can help me remove the need to know and the subsequent need to ask about all these details.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 05/28/11 02:32 PM
Quote
Im really hoping they can help me remove the need to know and the subsequent need to ask about all these details.
I don't think the books are going to take that need away, Mike. That's in YOUR make-up. Some people need all the details, others less. Some don't want to know anything about their spouse's affair.

I think you will find that it is OKAY to want to know. And I think you will find that it is a part of your healing to go through this with your WW. For both of you.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 05/28/11 03:24 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
Uneven. The best way to describe last night. I fought the need to open up a war and I lost. Brought up the past by needing to know more about quantity of sex. Because someone mentioned it, I wanted to know how much he got. And, on the way to the restaurant I started in. I know the answers, but I had to ask. It was like any new relationship where the 2 had unending amount of time to do whatever. I was calm, but even calm questioning doesnt help. I kept it going during dinner until she said stop.

We got home and had a long conversation, she cried, I cried we made committments. She understood my need to know. But, she said I was asking the same questions hoping for a different answer which she could provide, but would be lying.

Mike we went through this as well. My wife had 2 A's over 7 years. Not long in duration, 1 about 2.5 months and the last 10 months.Though the relationships weren't that long, the lies were. It can be frustrating, I know. It seems that there are so many Q's and you are hoping..striving to hear an answer that gives you something to hold onto. But! Timing is everything. Seriously, if you guys are spending time together that is supposed to be just you two, set a time limit for the talking. Ask your questions BEFORE you go out. Ask your questions, get your answers...Write them down.. Then go and have your fun. Don't carry it with you into public.


Im hoping the books coming next week can help me with the enormity of their relationship, this wasnt a one time hookup at bar or weekend in Vegas, this was a long time thing. That, my friends is the core of my issue, how do I just stop thinking about the day in, day out love affair she had. I know and remember how much new couples have each other. I know he asked for it everyday, she says she obliged some days others she ran. If I guess once a week for all that time, I get physically sick.

The books will help. You really should call into the radio show. They do a good job of handling questions there. Remember you are still early into it. My roller coaster lasted over a year.



I dont want to hurt my kids, but at some point seeing their father having mental breakdowns is not good either. Would me leaving reduce these breakdowns? Dont know. Probably not.

Me leaving has a lot of charm to it despite the sheer disaster it will cause. We would have to move, put my kids in new schools, Id have to find a place, shed have to find a place, the reason for the break up would be known, her reputation would be known, so theyd have to leave our community. My kids would hate her for what she did and they would learn in its entirity the reason for the divorce. And, in reality, if I fought for the kids, I might be able to get sole custody as I have a full time job, family, and didnt have a 5 year adulterous affair. So, I guess its an excercise in self defense, but THIS is how I can even out this MF'er in one move. Id be free to find someone who wants me and wont be swayed by superficial BS. And, she'd be ruined.

Well, I can't remember how old your kids are. What happened in my case is that my kids saw me as human. fallible. It brought us closer. Moving out is *not* an option if you want to make it work. BUT, I think it's ok if you take an overnight and give yourself a mental health break.


Somebody said I won the battle, I got her. I told her those words, but they ring hollow when I think about her laying with OM for month after month.

Im in pretty bad shape as it turns out.

You won the battle. The war is ahead of you. You are battling your heart and mind. This will be a long war. Settle in for the battle. It can be won, but it will take time.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/28/11 06:06 PM
Thank CV, buckling in for the long haul. Doing all I can to smile and maintain conversation. I realy dont my kids see my depression.

I really focused hard yesterday not blow up on our date last night. I did. But it really was one of the first times since week 1 to get her alone without the kids downstairs or just outside playing ball. I couldnt resist and I blew it.


In real honesty, here, I dont see how I can forgive her for this. Its too huge. Its too degrading both what she did to me and to herself. Ill alway have the stooge feeling she gave me. The neglect of my needs physical and emotional for all these years, the humiliation of him being a part of our lives, and the plain simple notion my wife was another guys girlfriend for many years. And all that goes with her being that. Its a combination of jealously, resentment, and abject anger and my need to vent at every turn. This is bad for me, her, and most importantly our children.

I got her apology 1000x but the dam is broken.

Im going to read those books and she'll read them too. We'll do the questionaires and try to move forward becasue I love her. But my anger is not subsiding in any way. All I do now is keep it to myself while Im with her and/or the kids. All of you have hammered home the need NOT to have AO, so Im keeping it inside.

I envisioned the massive upheaval of many peoples lives that me leaving will create. So, the high road would have me forgiving and healing. I dont know for if sure she is going to want the basket case she turned me in to forever. I see her frustration mounting over my huffing and puffing and again draining the Love Bank.

So, 20 days after d-day, the plan is following Dr. Harleys ideas in the books and give them sincere focus. And any permanent decision made after will be done with knowing I tried. We are meeting with a marriage counselor jointly next week. Im not moving fast or in haste to end this thing. But, the petty part of me is saying, "THAT SIR, IS YOUR BEST WAY IS GAIN REVENGE". The practical side of me is saying, "Thats stupid, stick with the program and it will work itself out".

Schizo stuff is in full effect.
Posted By: wulffpack_girl Re: Deception - 05/28/11 07:12 PM
Mike, I've had a lot of thoughts along the way of reading your thread, but have been hesitant to jump back in and post. I see so much of my H's anger and resentment - which, while justified, has been tough for me to deal with, and I can't really speak for how to manage it. What I can give you is at least some insight on how it could affect your R and your WW.

Enough posters have said on yours as well as other threads that the lies hurt a BS more than the actual A, and even though I'm the FWW here, I'd tend to agree that my lies hurt my H probably more than the actual A itself. When each lie is found out, it's a new blow. So my first advice to your WW is that she needs to come clean about everything. If that means taking a poly, then she should do that. Because the longer any trickle-truth goes on, the more resentment you will have and that, combined with the long-term nature of the A will throw your R into a tailspin you may not be able to stop.

Second, JL said it best. Your silence speaks much louder than your noise. Not literal silence as in stonewalling, but silence as in calm, collected. When my H found out the truth about my A, I walked on eggshells around him. I was terrified of making him angry, of making him rage, of driving him away. And we did talk about the A often - it didn't always end in anger or rage, often it was tears on my part. Lest you think my H was a violent person, he wasn't...I'd seen him have a temper before, sure...but never anything like the night he found out my A was physical: he trashed our bedroom, called me names, and almost hit me. Then there was the day he threw his wedding ring into the lake, punched the crap out of his steering wheel and drove like a maniac with me and the kids in the car, screaming obscenities and calling me names. Well, I believed (still believe) I'd pushed him to that. I said some stupid things - this was well before we found MB and I was rotten at recovery.

Anyway, I felt like we were constantly talking about "it," every single night after the kids went to bed, every time we were alone, and I was drained. So I did something stupid. I had a week-long trip scheduled for work about 2.5 months after full disclosure. It was for a management class I was in, and earlier I'd asked him to go with me. As the date approached and things didn't seem like they were getting better, I told him I'd rather he not go with me. It was a stupid move on my part. I put my work ahead of my H, ahead of our recovery. My reasons were purely selfish - I was worried that we'd be up all night rehashing the A, that I'd be drained and unable to concentrate on what I needed to do for the class.

After finding MB, if I was given the chance to address the trip again, I would have made a different decision. I would have pulled out of the class, I would have brought him with me, anything but how I hurt him and gave him a fresh heaping of rejection. But I didn't understand much about recovery then, or the pain that a BS feels.

So my usual longwindedness is to convey 2 things: first, your W must get on board with MB as soon as humanly possible so she does not make the same mistakes in recovery that I made. Just reading the books is not enough. She needs to digest them, live them, breathe them. If she's uncomfortable with posting on the forum, make sure she's reading. Disclaimer - some vets may disagree with sending a WW here too soon - but if you are 100% certain the A is dead then I strongly recommend having her at minimum, read. Reading the posts from BS's and in particular from BH's was a HUGE kick in the azz for me. And there are folks on the forum that can help her to walk the narrow path she has to walk.

Second, when you fight those urges to open up a war, you gotta fight harder. Others have said, vent here, go scream in your car, go to the batting cage or driving range (lol I used to throw rocks at the trees in the backyard). Once your W gains some perspective on what happens to a BS, all the storm of emotion inside you, I think that will help you tremendously. Each time you are angry, or berate her, you are LB-ing her. Eventually, if she "gets it," if she becomes a truly repentant wayward, she'll likely berate herself enough for both of you.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 05/28/11 09:34 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
Originally Posted by Possum
Quote
I fought the need to open up a war and I lost.
You made a choice.


Yes, but I didnt choose for my wife to be a cheater. And the wars are a symptom of that. I, once again, apologized for the questions and she, once again, apologized for my hurt.

Mike this is true. But while we cannot choose the wars all the time, we *can* choose how we will fight them.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 05/28/11 10:08 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
Thank CV, buckling in for the long haul. Doing all I can to smile and maintain conversation. I realy dont my kids see my depression.

I really focused hard yesterday not blow up on our date last night. I did. But it really was one of the first times since week 1 to get her alone without the kids downstairs or just outside playing ball. I couldnt resist and I blew it.

Mike, I want you to understand something my friend. The advice here about never blowing up is good advice. It's correct advice. But there is sometimes, the right answer and the real answer. The reality is, you are going to fail at certain things. You are going to fail to not blow up. You will do it numerous times. Some have avoided it, some (me for instance) were not able to. A lot of it is how we are wired.That said... Don't do it! smile

What i mean is this, there is a fine balance between knowing it will happen on occasion and using it as an excuse to blow your W out of the water. Strive to not do it, but when you do, be quick (as you have been) to repent.



In real honesty, here, I dont see how I can forgive her for this. Its too huge. Its too degrading both what she did to me and to herself. Ill alway have the stooge feeling she gave me. The neglect of my needs physical and emotional for all these years, the humiliation of him being a part of our lives, and the plain simple notion my wife was another guys girlfriend for many years. And all that goes with her being that. Its a combination of jealously, resentment, and abject anger and my need to vent at every turn. This is bad for me, her, and most importantly our children.

Forgiveness is a funny thing. Real forgiveness is two stages. 1 says "I won't seek revenge for what was done to me", and 2 says "I will seek to restore the relationship". Sometimes #2 cannot be done. MBuilders calls that forgiving (#2) and releasing the person (#1). Truth be told... It DOES start to fade, mike. Remember me telling you it's a war of attrition? The longer you can stick it out, the better you can deal with yourself and the problem. Man, it felt like forever for me. I remember feeling like the feelings would never leave, that things would never get better, that my heart would be broke forever. One day I realized I was no longer thinking of driving off the bridge. A little later after that, my wife commented (about a 2 years after Dday) that I was laughing again. I just realized that This is getting better, that I made it three years and she's made it three years. Are things perfect? Nope. But we are working. We have a plan and we are working towards loving each other.I know it seems like it's far off, but it isn't.


I got her apology 1000x but the dam is broken.


I built a dam once in the military. Rebuilt it once or twice too. Funny thing with dams... The water subsides after a time and they can be rebuilt. You get wet and dirty, but with care you can do it.


CV
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 05/28/11 11:01 PM
Good points, CV. Especially
Quote
The advice here about never blowing up is good advice. It's correct advice. But there is sometimes, the right answer and the real answer. The reality is, you are going to fail at certain things. You are going to fail to not blow up. You will do it numerous times. Some have avoided it, some (me for instance) were not able to. A lot of it is how we are wired.That said... Don't do it!
You can't outrun a tsunami. And that it what you try to do when you try to corral your emotions after D-Day. I told you some of my story. I know how hard it is. Remember: Anger DOES NOT HELP. That doesn't mean you're not allowed to have it. Of COURSE you are. Just try to minimize this - it sets back healing.

Hang in there, Mike. We know what you're going through.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/29/11 01:02 AM
Interesting doings. Got a threatening email from OM wife tonight, first time we've heard from her since day 1. She wanted me to know my wife was the agressor and chased down her wonderful husband. And, that I needed to be set straight about the fact. Then I proceeded to tell her 3 or 4 things my wife told me about the relationship that she didnt know. So it blew up in her face.

I showed my FWW the email from her and immediately she picked up the phone and got OM wife on the phone. My FWW had told me all that OM wife was ready to unload.

Im very proud of my wife. She's living the hell of her making and is doing great.

I found a technique, however, on the phone with OM wife tonight, I decided to put all the hours the OM and FWW spent together in a bucket filled with nice dinners, shoppoing, great gifts, and all the rest. I bought a back yard open fire pit today and I threw all that bucket in there along with all the stuff from the past. We did with our kids there so they knew where I stand. Im tired of my wife being scared and my kids being scared and Im ready to move forward.

In retrospect, that call from OM s wife was fantastic tonight.
Posted By: chickadee1 Re: Deception - 05/29/11 01:16 AM
good job!

stop, breathe, think. mike. the night was good, go with it.

Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 05/29/11 01:51 PM
Quote
She wanted me to know my wife was the agressor and chased down her wonderful husband. And, that I needed to be set straight about the fact.
This is also known as: OM threw your WW under the bus.

It's good that you corrected anything her WH told her in his desperate attempt to be 'less' of an adulterer. crazy
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/29/11 03:08 PM
3 Full Weeks in, baby. doing great.

I sent OM wife an email to help her a bit as I have been fortunate enough to get the guidance here and she still in a bad place. Felt good to be able to help someone else.

I told her the simple steps: demand the truth and get all the info you need up front, put all that info behind you, and start to move on.

If you cant get truths then you have no basis and you might as well divorce or just hang on until his next affair.

We agreed she I will have virtually no further contact as full cutout in my mind, me she and I too shouldnt speak.

But as I told her, she and I are forever linked by one f'd up situation. We are left to repair what our spouses did their best to destroy.

Im in a great place today.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/29/11 09:52 PM
After a number of emails back and forth with OM's wife where I did my best impression of you guys and held the high road and encourage her to seek all the truth up front and work to move on.

Shes in major fear that in 6 months or so this "love affair" can reblossom becuase its out and theres no need to lie. My wife sent an email apologizing directly and telling her in no certain terms she has no interest in her husband. And she reiterated that directly to him on the phone last night when OM wife called me.

Since I share all the emails with my FWW I encourage her to do th same. He return his own email with a very impressive apology and taking most of the blame for the relationship. Said his stupidity and selfishness are beyond words. I was something unplanned and he didnt know how stop it once it got going. He cares a great deal for my wife. He wished us luck in my business and is sorry he wont be able to see my kids grow up as he got very close to us.

So there you have it. A little more closure for me.

I certainly have more to learn about why my wife let herself go this far. It clearly was a financial relationship with a bit of socializing involved especially in the last number of years. My wife didnt want to be there, he knows it, but he took care of her and something in her obliged. We'll figure it out. I actually felt sorry for both FWW and OM during the emails. They both seemed pretty pathetic.

Doing good. Need to AO is at nil.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 05/29/11 11:42 PM
Quote
My wife didnt want to be there, he knows it, but he took care of her and something in her obliged. We'll figure it out.
I am concerned about this. Your WW obviously wanted to be there, or she wouldn't have been there.

Have you discussed the ENQ's with her? Would you consider counseling with the Harleys? I still get the impression that you're giving your wayward wife a free pass, and she does not deserve that.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/30/11 09:30 AM
No free pass. Im not well. Im having big problems with her "mountain of time" she spent with this man. Its an absolute mountain of time that she doesnt dispute and in fact doesnt say a lot of other than letting my imagination run wild about the what the time was like. She says it was a blur.

Again we had another party to go to last night this time a wedding which is no place for someone like me to be at. I lost control and ruined. We got home and she laid there as I laced into her about my lack of options. If I leave, I destroy my kids and their whole world changes and I become as selfish as she was. I stay I have to somehow put this mountain of sex I wasnt a part of in the back of my mind.

I dont like either choices, being dead seems much better at least Ill have no pain. I gave her 45 minutes at 1am of demeaming talk which resulted in nothing.

I cannot move on as it turns out. Im in trouble. Im ready to pack my bags, at least the kids will hate her because they'll know she caused it, the community will find out, and the upheaval will be immense, so there will be some satisfacttion in making her misrable.

I hate her for doing this.
Posted By: Sparkler Re: Deception - 05/30/11 09:51 AM
Hey Mike,
What about packing your bags and starting anew somewhere else - together? This house, this neighbourhood, everything holds a tremendous amount of triggers for both of you. The world has already changed forever, so perhaps it would help to get a fresh start.

BTW, Dr Harley suggests that the nearest community should have been exposed to anyway (family, mutual friends etc). It is the best way to end the affair, hold the affair partners accountable and clear the fog. It seems that this has not been discussed on your thread very much. Perhaps the vets will chime in - should it be done now that the affair is already ended?

Wish you all the best and the strength of a superman. One day at a time.
Posted By: Tanam Re: Deception - 05/30/11 12:13 PM
Oh the rollercoaster is fun isn't it!

Breathe Mike, just keep breathing, the revelations have only been made in the last few weeks, it's going to take time hun, lots of it.

Hang on to the decision not to make a decision for 3 months, then re evaluate, come here, vent, listen to the vets, recover yourself.

I made a decision that I would recover, even if my marriage didn't, that took me to a place where I was able to look at the here and now, have a clear boundary around contact....ie any and I walk, but to enjoy the good stuff.

Someone here has a line in their sig that they don't need to be married that badly, once I realised that worked for me, things started to get better.

up and down, up and down, you will be doing that for a while. Don't do anything that can't be undone for now.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 05/30/11 12:51 PM
Quote
Since I share all the emails with my FWW I encourage her to do th same.
I just caught this. Mike, you have to understand that No Contact means NO CONTACT. Reading OM's emails is a form of contact for your WW. She should not be reading OMW's emails, either. You seem insistent upon treating your WW as though she is a victim. This needs to stop or it will bite you firmly on the [censored]. If you allow your WW to play the victim, no healing can take place, Mike.

And I'm assuming the unfortunate phone contact with OM is the last one, too, correct? She can't be 'wrapping things up' with him. That's all done.

Posted By: jessitaylor Re: Deception - 05/30/11 01:41 PM
Mikesmile,

A lot of us have felt exactly what you are today, I still hate my husband for what he has done to our lives, it changes everything, BS's always try to make sense of what happened and why, you can't do that, you will drive yourself crazy. You can't take on all the ugliness your wife chose for herself, it didn't have anything to do with you, it was her lack of boundaries and commitment or just knowing right from wrong.
You believe in love and marriage she didn't don't let that ruin it for you, you didn't do anything to be ashamed of, hold your head up high and know that you protected your family the right way............
Don't go down to where she is and has lived............all you can do is what is in you for you and your children, be proud of that..........
For you I think you need to give yourself time to figure out what you can do and deal with, what is the rush..........work on yourself, get comfortable with the fact that you have done what is right and you have to decide if this is a place you can live..........
She is accountable for her own actions and decisions, watch and learn see if she has it in her to make things right, it is the only way it will work for you, her effort now is the most important thing, not words actions..........
You are mad and hurt and that is understandable, but for you what good does that do you to hang on to............
Be there and fix things if you want but no one would blame you if you didn't and being dead would only let her win............that's the last thing you want......hehe!!
I know I felt that myself at one point, and then I said what they forgot was how strong I can be and how much of a fight I can put up to save what was mine.......I was not going to sit back and let something so selfish take what was mine and ruin what my kids loved and needed in their lives.......I stepped up to the plate when my husband was a selfish a**.
I learned to be the best me I could be I held my head up high and put everything I had learned in life about being honest and forgiving and compassionate and I did what I had to do and then I let the chips fall where they might and I learned to accept what would happen...........that is all we can do
jessi
Posted By: Sparkler Re: Deception - 05/30/11 01:54 PM
Aha.. I just listened to the radio show of May 23 which discusses exactly the topic of exposure after the affair has already died. Basically it is not suggested if the affair happened long ago, unless the affair is rekindled or there is another affair.

http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/...ten/im-going-to-hit-the-road-172898.html - in the last segment, beginning around 32:33.

Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 05/30/11 03:03 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
No free pass. Im not well. Im having big problems with her "mountain of time" she spent with this man. Its an absolute mountain of time that she doesnt dispute and in fact doesnt say a lot of other than letting my imagination run wild about the what the time was like. She says it was a blur.

Again we had another party to go to last night this time a wedding which is no place for someone like me to be at. I lost control and ruined. We got home and she laid there as I laced into her about my lack of options. If I leave, I destroy my kids and their whole world changes and I become as selfish as she was. I stay I have to somehow put this mountain of sex I wasnt a part of in the back of my mind.

I dont like either choices, being dead seems much better at least Ill have no pain. I gave her 45 minutes at 1am of demeaming talk which resulted in nothing.

I cannot move on as it turns out. Im in trouble. Im ready to pack my bags, at least the kids will hate her because they'll know she caused it, the community will find out, and the upheaval will be immense, so there will be some satisfacttion in making her misrable.

I hate her for doing this.

Mike,

A word of advice. No Relationship conversation after midnight. You're tired, stressed and not making intelligent decisions when you are tired. Wihle you may have been able to function like this in the past (pre-A), the dynamic has changed and sleep is essential to clear thinking.

CV
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/30/11 03:14 PM
MB-On Saturday I got an email or 2 actually from OM wife threatened to send out mass emails telling everyone we know about the A if I didnt get in touch with to discuss how my FWW is portraying herself as the victim and said my FWW spent a lot of time bad mouthing me to her philanderer husband and, this is good, her husband actually used to defend ME to my FWW. It was pretty intense. I showed my wife the emails and I calld OM wife the right away. I dialed furiously and she wasnt picking up, so my wife used another phone and called OM right in front of me and told him about the threats and that was it. No further conversatoin. I really beleive my FWW has no further interest in OM. This is not where my head is and it is of the smallest concerns in my recovery. I swear this. My FWW is experiencing some of the worst hurt imaginable and is on the cusp of losing everything she has, and potentially her children. I have little concern she wants him in any way. It was a bizarre relationship that makes my wife look really bad. Because of a need for the nicer things in life that I didnt deliver often enough, and Im really speaking of nice dinners, fancy clothings, jewelry, and just going out and having fun my wife fell into a relationship with this guy who in turn, as I see it and as he said in his email to us yesterday, used that money to control and manipulate my very shallow wife for years. It became less fun over time but my wife felt the money he gave her and the other little niceties was worth putting up with his nudging and demanding for sex. Sad, really for my wife and I told her I very mostly sad and embarrassed for her that. Im not saying there was no real love and affection early on, but that seemed to end and my wife was too weak to remove herself and lacked the interest.

About the only thing OM wife said in conversation with and emails which is absolutely true is my wife was very jealous of OM wife and wished she could be in the position. I then had to inform my wife that once you get to OM wife, you then have 1, 2, maybe 3 side babes hanging with your husband too. Is nice jewelry and fancy cars worth it.

By the way, things economically for OM have not been the same since early 2009 so the good life he provided for his wife, my FWW, and all the others has come to a halt. He still took care of my FWW, no doubt, just not the same. Doesnt mean much as my wife stuck around and was with him, but just a tidbit worth noting.

-I apologized to my wife for saying the things I said last night. She understands the pressure Im under and accepted and apologized again for everything.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 05/30/11 03:25 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
MB-On Saturday I got an email or 2 actually from OM wife threatened to send out mass emails telling everyone we know about the A if I didnt get in touch with to discuss how my FWW is portraying herself as the victim and said my FWW spent a lot of time bad mouthing me to her philanderer husband and, this is good, her husband actually used to defend ME to my FWW. It was pretty intense. I showed my wife the emails and I calld OM wife the right away. I dialed furiously and she wasnt picking up, so my wife used another phone and called OM right in front of me and told him about the threats and that was it. No further conversatoin. I really beleive my FWW has no further interest in OM. This is not where my head is and it is of the smallest concerns in my recovery. I swear this. My FWW is experiencing some of the worst hurt imaginable and is on the cusp of losing everything she has, and potentially her children. I have little concern she wants him in any way. It was a bizarre relationship that makes my wife look really bad. Because of a need for the nicer things in life that I didnt deliver often enough, and Im really speaking of nice dinners, fancy clothings, jewelry, and just going out and having fun my wife fell into a relationship with this guy who in turn, as I see it and as he said in his email to us yesterday, used that money to control and manipulate my very shallow wife for years. It became less fun over time but my wife felt the money he gave her and the other little niceties was worth putting up with his nudging and demanding for sex. Sad, really for my wife and I told her I very mostly sad and embarrassed for her that. Im not saying there was no real love and affection early on, but that seemed to end and my wife was too weak to remove herself and lacked the interest.

About the only thing OM wife said in conversation with and emails which is absolutely true is my wife was very jealous of OM wife and wished she could be in the position. I then had to inform my wife that once you get to OM wife, you then have 1, 2, maybe 3 side babes hanging with your husband too. Is nice jewelry and fancy cars worth it.

By the way, things economically for OM have not been the same since early 2009 so the good life he provided for his wife, my FWW, and all the others has come to a halt. He still took care of my FWW, no doubt, just not the same. Doesnt mean much as my wife stuck around and was with him, but just a tidbit worth noting.

-I apologized to my wife for saying the things I said last night. She understands the pressure Im under and accepted and apologized again for everything.


Mike,

Others may have different ideas on this, but what i see is that the OM and OMW are triggers for you. You need to maintain that she have no contact. If for some strange freak of fate you have to be in contact with OM, make sure it is *YOU* and not her. She has no reason whatsoever to talk to him. You are in essence her "spokesman" before men. One of the EPs she should have in place is to never ever talk to OM again for any reason. He gets hit by a car? No flowers to funeral, no card, nada..

Anything as mundane as saying hi to OMW in a grocery store may serve as a trigger for you, so you need to avoid contact with her as well.


Another thought... This guy's a tool. I don't care how many times he apologizes... Don't care how close you perceived you were. If he was your friend and cared one bit he wouldn't have done this. Best revenge? Cut him off.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/30/11 03:25 PM
MB-

I dont want to post the entire email chain between me and OM wife because it has names and Im too lazy to edit it, but the emails back and forth were mainly my trying to help her out as on that day I was in good shape mentally and felt I had an upper hand as I had a foundation in my recovery because of the time spent here.

But suffice to say when we finished and it includeds my wife chiming in and his apology to me, I made it clear recovery require ZERO CONTACT with anyone involved. So, theres been no reply and we are continuing on with our lives separately.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/30/11 03:30 PM
All-They are cut off. This was the first contact from them since week 1, day 2. OMW seems to think her husband is Prince Charming and my wife couldnt live without his body and is deathly scared that they will eventually be reconnecting because true love is true love. BS. Nothing my wife has said or shown me or intimated or anything else says she has any thoughts about him. She really is just trying to rebuild what we have and I truly belive this. Its up to me to figure out how I can let her.
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: Deception - 05/30/11 03:32 PM
Mike, We have walked your shoes. If total Exposure hasn't happened it needs too.
Im assuming by your comments that your WW agrees to NO CONTACT for life? Have you ordered or started reading Surviving an Affair? Is she willing to engage in a plan of Marital Recovery?
Posted By: MrsWondering Re: Deception - 05/30/11 03:36 PM
Originally Posted by Mike
my wife was too weak to remove herself and lacked the interest.

No. Your wife CHOSE not to remove herself. Period. To paraphrase a former poster here, Noodle, I presume your wife was functioning and not curled up in the fetal position in a corner eating her hair, correct? Unless that was the case Mike, your wife was not incapable of ending the affair that she chose to actively participate in.

She was no victim.

Now, onwards and upwards. You need a PLAN, Mike. I read earlier in your thread that the two of you intend on beginning "joint marriage counseling". I would advise against that. Marriage counselors have an 84% failure rate -- they are essentially "Divorce Counselors". They don't usually know the first thing about the dynamics of adultery, nor how to help a couple recover from it.

Your best bet would be to set-up an appointment with Steve Harley for marriage coaching. He will provide you guys with a definitive PLAN -- Something SOLID. You desperately need that type of directive guidance right now, Mike. It will be your saving grace -- a life preserver. It will be the best money you will ever spend. Will you call the Harleys, Mike? MB Coaching Center Link

Mrs. W
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Deception - 05/30/11 03:49 PM
ITA with Mrs Wondering, Steve. You need a plan and you need the Harleys.

You seem to be leading this with your emotions which as any BS can attest to, can take you in 20 different directions all in one day.

Have you considered ADs? The weeks/months after dday can be brutal and even Dr Harley recommends them if you are having trouble...

And lastly, ITA with what mb said earlier. NEVER share OMW emails with your W. That is going to trigger her.
The first part of your plan is that your WW is to NEVER NEVER see or talk to OM EVER again. She SHOULD NOT have called OM, no matter what the reason was. It doesn't matter what you believe about your W's sincerity or desire to recover. This rule is never to be broken...ever.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/30/11 03:50 PM
Originally Posted by Hilsmonemoretime
Mike, We have walked your shoes. If total Exposure hasn't happened it needs too.
Im assuming by your comments that your WW agrees to NO CONTACT for life? Have you ordered or started reading Surviving an Affair? Is she willing to engage in a plan of Marital Recovery?
Yes, Ive ordered the books and we plan to read them cover to cover. Shes on board. I got all the exposure I need and Im not looking for more. Im looking to put all thats been exposed behind me. THATS what I hope these books can do for me. Thats where my demons live.
Posted By: MrsWondering Re: Deception - 05/30/11 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
All-They are cut off. This was the first contact from them since week 1, day 2. OMW seems to think her husband is Prince Charming and my wife couldnt live without his body and is deathly scared that they will eventually be reconnecting because true love is true love. BS. Nothing my wife has said or shown me or intimated or anything else says she has any thoughts about him. She really is just trying to rebuild what we have and I truly belive this. Its up to me to figure out how I can let her.

Mike,

A fully burnt out coke addict doesn't "like" cocaine either, but that does not mean that they don't still have a vulnerability and addiction to it -- Right now, like any other addict who has felt a recent sting due to their addiction, the feel of the burn of the addiction is FRESH for your wife, but that WILL wear off and she will forget the pain associated with the addictive substance [OM] -- Will power is VERY unreliable. That is why recovering addicts and alcoholics do not go hang out in bars or with people that use all the time. Addicts must take EXTRAORDINARY PRECAUTIONS to separate themselves from their addiction -- for LIFE.

No contact means no contact.

Mrs. W
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/30/11 03:54 PM
Ive said many times. My wife was a willing participant even when, as she says, it got less fun for her. She did it. Shes admits it. She could have left it. She didnt. Not defending her in anyway.
Posted By: MrsWondering Re: Deception - 05/30/11 03:57 PM
Mike,

Will you call the Harleys?

Mrs. W
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Deception - 05/30/11 04:02 PM
Unfortunately, since contact between your WW and the OM resumed yesterday, you have been placed back to Day 1 of recovery. This is why extraordinary precautions should be taken to avoid contact. It is ok for YOU to be in touch with the OMW but it is NOT ok for your wife to be in touch with either of them.

I would also suggest that if you have the same circle of friends as the OM and OMW, that you tell those friends about the affair and find some new friends. I haven't read this whole thread so maybe that is not the case. If not, just ignore this part.

I agree with the others about your wife's involvement in this affair. Husbands have a tendency to portray their WW's as mere children who were manipulated by an predator, but that is rarely the case. If she is a big enough gurl to drive a car, she is big enough to be held accountable as a thinking adult. She is not a child..
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Deception - 05/30/11 04:04 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
Nothing my wife has said or shown me or intimated or anything else says she has any thoughts about him.

This is very unrealistic. She does have thoughts about him and all those feelings that led to her affair were triggered yesterday with the renewed contact. She might be telling YOU she has no thoughts of him, but that is dishonest. An affair is an addiction, those thoughts do not just go away.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Deception - 05/30/11 04:21 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile;s wife
I My husband is paying a lot and he didnt deserve this. The OM made a call last week for his closure and I told him to F-off. I told my H this immediately and we are moving through the process using some of the ideas from this site.

I am still catching up, but this comment from your wife was very alarming, Mike. This is another example of your W being in contact with the OM. Unless this is tightened up, you are facing a resumption of the affair. Ending contact means SHE takes steps to ensure he NEVER gets through. Has this been changed?
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/30/11 04:24 PM
OK. I will be smarter and so will she. Im not 100% sure why she dialed, I was right there, but only to tell him to take care of his wife. There will be no contact. Im reviewing her cell phone calls and emails and guarding her like never before. I was right there when she spoke to him, it was short, curt, and to the point. Maybe it triggered something, I dont know for sure, but I will be smarter not to let it happen.

My wife and I would like to read the books first and then make the decision to seek the Harleys help. It does seem likely as many of your are devoted and happily married because of doing so. So let me digest and get help from the material coming and we'll make the next step accordingly.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Deception - 05/30/11 04:26 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
I look forward with her because I love her and she needs me and I need to help her not ever feel so low about herself or station in life that she would get into what she got into.


Actually it is the other way around. Getting involved in an affair is what made her feel so low about herself. There is nothing to esteem about a person who does that. Low self esteem is the RESULT, not the cause. If you behave in un-esteemable ways, you will naturally have low self esteem.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Deception - 05/30/11 04:31 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
OK. I will be smarter and so will she. Im not 100% sure why she dialed, I was right there, but only to tell him to take care of his wife. There will be no contact. Im reviewing her cell phone calls and emails and guarding her like never before. I was right there when she spoke to him, it was short, curt, and to the point. Maybe it triggered something, I dont know for sure, but I will be smarter not to let it happen.

I am a recovering alcoholic. If I have a drink "in front of my husband" will it make me sober? Hell no. See, it makes no difference if you are there. Triggered is triggered. And now she is triggered. You being there does not change that. WHAT MATTERS IS SHE IS STILL IN CONTACT WITH THE OM. Guess what she is thinking about today?

This has to STOP. The OM knows her phone # and email address and still calls her. The solution is to cancel the phone # and the email account.

Step ONE is never see or speak to the OM again. You can't move onto Step TWO until that happens.

Quote
My wife and I would like to read the books first and then make the decision to seek the Harleys help. It does seem likely as many of your are devoted and happily married because of doing so. So let me digest and get help from the material coming and we'll make the next step accordingly.

You can also use the program on your own without coaching from the Harleys if you are disciplined and stick to the lessons. There is a workbook that goes with the books called Five Steps to Romantic Love that they sell cheap here. If you can follow the lessons, you can recover your marriage on your own with the help of this forum and the radio show.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Deception - 05/30/11 04:35 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
Im not 100% sure why she dialed,

I will tell you why: Because she is still wayward and this is what waywards do. They want closure, to tell the OP off, or fill in the blank. THey will always look for another reason to contact. Close up all the loopholes and makes sure she understands this is UNACCPETABLE NO MATTER THE REASON.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Deception - 05/30/11 04:46 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
Im going to read those books and she'll read them too. We'll do the questionaires and try to move forward becasue I love her. But my anger is not subsiding in any way. All I do now is keep it to myself while Im with her and/or the kids. All of you have hammered home the need NOT to have AO, so Im keeping it inside.

Your anger won't subside for years. You have been traumatized. It doesnt' go away over night.

Quote
I envisioned the massive upheaval of many peoples lives that me leaving will create. So, the high road would have me forgiving and healing. I dont know for if sure she is going to want the basket case she turned me in to forever. I see her frustration mounting over my huffing and puffing and again draining the Love Bank.

Mike, you have continually mentioned YOU leaving. If you decide to separate, it should be HER who leaves, since she had the affair. If you decide to abandon your marriage, you would want to file for divorce on grounds of adultery and seek possession of your home and primary custody. That is typically how it is done. You do not want to abandon your children and your home. If you did, I have no doubt she would invite the OM in and that would be a disaster for your children. Most judges frown on abandonment.

I don't agree it is the "high road" for you to stay and "forgive." It is sure not the high road if her abuse of you has created a resentment you can't overcome. Sometimes the resentment one has from being abused is too great to overcome. Your emotions may be telling you it is not a good idea to continue the relationship. After all, this goes WAY beyond the typical betrayal we see every day here. Your W brought her affair right into your home. It doesn't get much crueler than that. She rubbed her filthy affair in your nose and that of your children.

You may very well be able to overcome that, but don't think for a minute there is any shame in asking her to move and ending the marriage. You would be fully within your rights to divorce her.

That being said, I wouldn't make that decision right now. Give it some time. So far she has been what I consider a big FAIL because of her continued contact with the OM. That tells me she is not very sincere about ending her affair. She might be saying the right words, but her actions tell the true story. Talk is cheap, cheap, cheap with a wayward.
Posted By: MrsWondering Re: Deception - 05/30/11 04:51 PM
My reason for suggesting you call Steve Harley now, Mike is because as SusieQ mentioned, I see you letting your emotions drive the ship right now -- that is understandable in your position, so I am not saying it to put you down at all. I just believe STRONGLY that you and your wife would benefit GREATLY from some structure right now -- some immediate directives. Steve Harley is GREAT at that kind of guidance. Recovery is a VERY NARROW path and even slight deviations have proven disastrous. Your family deserves the best shot at recovery -- I know the Harleys can give you that.

Alarm bells sounded for me when I saw that you wrote the two of you were going to begin "joint marriage counseling". Please don't -- the mistakes many of them make could easily mean the downfall of your family. The last thing you need is a counselor who might be supportive of some very wayward stuff -- we see that happen VERY OFTEN around here -- in fact, we see it more often than not.

I also second what SusieQ said about Antidepressants -- those would help smooth out the emotional ups and downs you are going through right now.

Mrs. W

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Deception - 05/30/11 04:54 PM
Agree with MrsW. Marriage counseling is destructive to marriages. They don't have the slightest idea how to save marriages and have an 84% failure rate. They have a higher personal divorce rate than the general population. You are very likely to end up in a "trial separation" if you go to a MC.
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: Deception - 05/30/11 05:04 PM
When your WW lips are moving she is probably telling a lie. While in the fog of an Affair. Your getting superior advice here. Harley's program specializes on Adultery.
2 things you must demand
1) No contact for life
2) Plan of recovering the M to romantic love
Then just like anything in your life worth having you roll up your sleeves and get to work. Giving it Time and Care. But you have to also tell her what your boundaries are. If they are crossed you have to be able to act on the consequences.
I affirmed to my wife as needed. I will not try to reconcile my M if you have any contact with OM EVER AGAIN. I will also not live in a uncaring, unfulfilled Marriage any more. I am here and willing to work on the steps to a happy M under these conditions. Now would you like to go on a walk? smile

Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/30/11 07:52 PM
Look people, I thank you for all your input, and I really mean I think you helped me a lot. As cruel and downright vicious her A was to me by bringing him into our home, you are indicating factors that do not exist. I know you are not here and dont have the insight as I do, but what you describe is far from what is real. I dont have the time to rebut all what you said and I have understood your concern.

At this time, however, I am going wait for the SAA and other book I ordered to get here and I am going refrain from my posting. I am going to take the productive advice Ive gotten and I am going to work towards ending my need to blast my FWW when I got the urges. Im sorry to say, however true your words may be and perhaps may come back to be true in my case, they tend to upset me and I am sharing your thought with my FWW. I know you are warning me from experience.

I know you who have been through this dont believe a word she says but I see a woman who is very through with this OM. The demensions of that relationship made her look downright cheap and shallow and she is mortified she let continue. I believe this sincerely. We are going work to find out what it is inside that made her this way and I want to be a part of that process. I am restarting our recovery, 1) because the contact with OM on Sat night, however short, means I have to restart, and 2) because the absolute worst bashing I gave last night means a restart.

I am going to protect her from any need to reach out to him and I am going to protect me from any further hurt by doing the things that may have brought this on from my end. She will work as she is everyday and hour to continue helping me understand what happened and reduce its pain on me. I see a very sorry woman who has done everything someone in her shoes needs to do. She is not a perfect person and freely admits it.

So, I am going to stand down from checking this each hour and Im going to use the materials in mail. I have a lot of work to do adn so does she. I only can go by what she says to me and what i see in her eyes and that is she wants the last 7 years to go away and restart our marriage. She has begged me for forgiveness. And, I have said to her on more than one occasion if she wants OM and Im sure he'd leave his wife for my FWW, the time to do it is now. I told her life is too short to be with me if OM is what is going to make her happy.

Im not going to rehash earlier posts about OM and his ways, not worth it. My FWW has lived it and regrets all of it now. As nice and wonderful as he appeared in my home and to my kids, he used his money to court my wife and to keep her close. And she went willingly. He kept my wife from achieving anything in terms of a career because that would have meant she search for a job away from him years ago. She stayed with him willingly. He used his money and power to get her to satisfy him when needed. She did this willingly. I know is ironic to say one thing and then to say she did it willingly, but this is how I see it. There was a love that grew into a very easy way of life and it spiraled into what it became. It became normal which is where we are working to find out why.

We lost 7 years and we'll have to deal with that as adults.

So, when I have completed SAA I will come back here to share my thoughts and hopefully she and I will have things to move forward from.
Posted By: MrsWondering Re: Deception - 05/30/11 08:03 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
We are going work to find out what it is inside that made her this way and I want to be a part of that process.

What you will learn is this: We are all wired for affairs. Your wife did not take extraordinary precautions to protect her weaknesses, so she allowed another man to meet her emotional needs. Her feelings followed her actions. There is no need for any deep soul searching or looking "inside", Mike. It really is as simple as that.

Good luck to you.

Mrs. W
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/30/11 08:04 PM
Originally Posted by MrsWondering
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
We are going work to find out what it is inside that made her this way and I want to be a part of that process.

What you will learn is this: We are all wired for affairs. Your wife did not take extraordinary precautions to protect her weaknesses, so she allowed another man to meet her emotional needs. Her feelings followed her actions. There is no need for any deep soul searching or looking "inside", Mike. It really is as simple as that.

Good luck to you.

Mrs. W

Thank you. I will protect her if she cannot. She has too much to lose. Take care.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 05/31/11 12:11 AM
Quote
Im not 100% sure why she dialed, I was right there, but only to tell him to take care of his wife.
She called him because she wanted to hear his voice.

Mike, friend, you are being snowed. She's got you chasing your own tail. Never a good thing to see. And I'm not talking about US seeing it. I'm talking about HER seeing it. She is showing ZERO respect for you. ZERO.

Nooo
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Deception - 05/31/11 12:17 AM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
. I only can go by what she says to me and what i see in her eyes and that is she wants the last 7 years to go away and restart our marriage. She has begged me for forgiveness.

Mike, I would not advise that you go by what she says at all. That would be a mistake. A better strategy is to go by her actions. Her words will mislead. She is in the long habit of decieving you. Because of that, I would give her an opportunity to EARN your forgivness. Handing over unearned, inappropriate forgiveness will hurt you, her, and your marriage. It is in her best interest to EARN it. I would give her that opportunity but I will tell you I am not impressed so far. She has not ended contact with her OM and I have my doubts she will.

Originally Posted by Dr Harley in Can't We just Forgive and Forget
To make matters worse, whenever a wayward spouse sees me for counseling there is rarely regret and rarely a willingness to compensate the offended spouse. They usually ask to be forgiven, but that doesn't mean he or she is deeply remorseful. It usually means that he or she doesn't want us to bring up the subject anymore, or require a change in behavior. In other words, the wayward spouse wants the pain suffered by the offended spouse to be ignored or forgotten. Like a $10,000 debt, they want it forgiven, and then they want to borrow another $10,000.

I'm in favor of forgiveness in many situations, but this isn't one of them. In the case of infidelity, compensation not only helps the offended spouse overcome the resentment he or she harbors, but the right kind of compensation helps restore the relationship and prevents the painful act from being repeated.

In most cases, an offended spouse would be unwise to forgive the wayward spouse without just compensation. It's like forgiving a friend of the $10,000 he owes you, when it's actually in the friend's best interest to pay you in full because it would teach him how to be more responsible with money.

As it turns out, in every affair there is a way to adequately compensate the offended spouse that is good for the offender and good for the marriage. At first, the offended spouse may not want to be compensated. He or she may try to get as far away from the offender as possible to avoid further pain. But if the spouse asks for forgiveness along with a willingness to compensate, the offended spouse is usually willing to entertain the proposal.
here
Posted By: mehr Re: Deception - 05/31/11 12:42 AM
Listen to them! It is good advice. These things all follow a pattern...
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 05/31/11 12:46 AM
I can usually tell a BS who has been successfully snowed by his/her wayward. They post unusually large posts explaining why we are wrong, and why their situation is 'special' or their wayward is 'different'. Waywards are all the same, Mike. Only the names change.

May I disabuse you of some of your notions?
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As cruel and downright vicious her A was to me by bringing him into our home,

While it's exceptionally abusive to find out that a wayward has brought their affair partner in the marital home, the fact that is most horrific is that they had the affair in the first place.

Quote
Im sorry to say, however true your words may be and perhaps may come back to be true in my case, they tend to upset me and I am sharing your thought with my FWW.
I think, when you really think about it, you'll realize that our words aren't what is upsetting you. The actions of your wayward wife are what is upsetting you. You're taking the voices of experience to her, basically saying "Tell me this isn't YOU!" And she will comply. This is why you look at her as a victim. Mike, she's not going to come clean if she thinks it's going to be painful. She's wayward. She's going to take the coward's way out every time if she thinks she can get away with it. It's what waywards do.

Quote
I know you who have been through this dont believe a word she says but I see a woman who is very through with this OM.
redflag I hope you're right. I've read this before. And then the poster has come back later and said "You were right."

Quote
I am going to protect her from any need to reach out to him
Say WHAT??? faint She needs to demonstrate to YOU that she is willing to protect YOU and your MARRIAGE. YOU'RE protecting HER??? From what??

Quote
I see a very sorry woman who has done everything someone in her shoes needs to do.
She has yet to demonstrate any extraordinary precautions to protect your marriage. All she's done is express her sorrow over the affair being caught.

Quote
There was a love that grew into a very easy way of life and it spiraled into what it became.
It wasn't love. It was an appalling departure from what love is. It was GREED. It was SELFISHNESS. It was DISHONESTY to the nth degree. It was NOT love. It is a slap in the face to every faithful marriage to call this thing LOVE.

Quote
So, when I have completed SAA I will come back here to share my thoughts and hopefully she and I will have things to move forward from.
Good luck.

Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 05/31/11 12:54 AM
Quote
Thank you. I will protect her if she cannot. She has too much to lose. Take care.
Mike, would you consider counseling with Steve H? You mentioned earlier that you planned to attend MC with your wayward. Please understand that most MCs aren't worth the office space they occupy. Steve knows how to supply you with the tools you need to repair your marriage.

You will be very, very impressed.
Posted By: TryingEverything Re: Deception - 05/31/11 01:30 AM
7 years of lies = Way too much.

Kick her to the curb. What have you got to lose, a 2 out of 10 sex life?

You can do better. Seriously, can you do worse???

Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 05/31/11 02:31 AM
Originally Posted by TryingEverything
7 years of lies = Way too much.

Kick her to the curb. What have you got to lose, a 2 out of 10 sex life?

You can do better. Seriously, can you do worse???
This is unacceptable advice coming from a divorced man who was unable to save his M. Trying,this poster has no interest in ending his marriage. Do you understand that? Please don't distract him from saving his M.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 05/31/11 12:27 PM
Originally Posted by TryingEverything
7 years of lies = Way too much.

Kick her to the curb. What have you got to lose, a 2 out of 10 sex life?

You can do better. Seriously, can you do worse???

I was lied to for almost 8 and I have to say this isn't necessarily true. He has everything to lose by leaving. He stands to gain so much more by staying.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 05/31/11 12:44 PM
Hey, TE, see if you can follow this analogy:

Guy 1: My car is giving me lots of trouble, won't start, bad gas mileage, runs rough, no "pep". I need to have it serviced. Any ideas?

Guy 2: Are you crazy? As soon as it acts up, dump it! Crush it if you have to. I did exactly that and I know what I'm talking about.

MS, I think you have a great deal to offer your family in the realm of maturity and intelligent compassion. Keep fighting the good fight. We (or at least MOST of us) will give you the support you might require to get through the rough patches.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/31/11 12:54 PM
CV-Thank you. I swore i wouldnt post because of the negativity Im reading and obviously these people speak from experinece. Just not my experience. You have been my rock and my source of strength on this blog to go forward and work with my wife and make us whole again.

I respect the warnings but like everyone else's my situation is different. Not going to say why as I have ad nauseaum since I logged on.

Im really hoping for the best and made commitments to be the best. SO DID SHE. I will however be wary and will defend myself as best as I can. And your words have given me the ability to hang in there.

Posted By: jessitaylor Re: Deception - 05/31/11 01:08 PM
MikeSmile,

I just wanted to offer support throughout your journey, it's a tough road, I still have days when I want to quit, but the fighter in me always kicks in.......
The bottom line for me was I loved my husband and after 27 years it was worth at least a fight, and one other thing I wasn't going to let some BIMBO my husband knew for 3 months destroy my life and family, she underestimated me, that inspired me like nothing else...............NO WAY IN HELL WAS THE AFFAIR GOING TO WIN AND TAKE MY LIFE. I told myself I would fight until the D papers were signed.
I now have a great husband who has truly changed HIS ways, he now says that I saved him.............
jessi
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 05/31/11 01:26 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
CV-Thank you. I swore i wouldnt post because of the negativity Im reading and obviously these people speak from experinece. Just not my experience. You have been my rock and my source of strength on this blog to go forward and work with my wife and make us whole again.

I respect the warnings but like everyone else's my situation is different. Not going to say why as I have ad nauseaum since I logged on.

Im really hoping for the best and made commitments to be the best. SO DID SHE. I will however be wary and will defend myself as best as I can. And your words have given me the ability to hang in there.

Keep hanging in there! Remember, What we are posting has been the *common* experience. We all share common traits by virtue of being human, but we are all wired slightly different, which is what makes us unique. The common experience is that usually a contact like that does trigger the FWW, but it doesn't necessarily in all cases. There is really only one absolute in dealing with relational issues, and that is we absolutely must take into account the differences in how we approach things and people. We found MB late. I was almost three years into recovery (our 3yr anniversary for DDay falls on Father's day this year. )What would have been best for us? In retrospect, probably for me to have been on the list. For my wife? Not to be on the list. Why? Because she needed a much more tender touch than is *sometimes* afforded on the list for WSs.

That doesn't mean that the approach here is always wrong, or even wrong most of the time, she is just wired different. I am perhaps more sensitive to it than some others. A perceived harsh tone for her had triggered her for years because of her past life experiences. She had to learn proper coping mechanisms.

All that said, even when people here are perceived as *harsh* or rough when they give the 2x4's, know that they do it because they care for your marriage and for you and your wife. They are here because they don't want to see you fail. That is a very admirable thing. In fact, most people in my experience would simply get advice, fix themselves and go on with their own life. The folks here are different. They want to share how MB has helped them. No plan is perfect, but some are better than others, and MB has been the best (and we literally have looked at dozens) we have found.


All that said, mike, Stick around brother. Ever read the Tao of Jeet Kune Do written by Bruce Lee? He had a saying in there... Absorb what is useful... discard the rest, realize that what may not be useful now, you may find to be useful later.

CV



Posted By: Gamma Re: Deception - 05/31/11 01:30 PM
Mike,

Awhile back you wrote, her husband actually used to defend ME to my FWW.

I believe from what was written about OM that he actually would have said something like that, OM would say anything to make himself look good and keep your W addicted to himself. This OM is a master manipulator for whom the good opinion of others is just an extension of his narcissism.

This OM is also self-deluded enough to believe that at some time in the future all will be forgiven and everyone will be friends again, he will never get it.

God Bless
Gamma
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: Deception - 05/31/11 01:33 PM
MikeSmile. The true usefulness of this board is the experience and to let you vent to us and not her. Tho we haven't walked directly in your shoes we have walked in shoes just like yours. We see things you dont sometimes. But I can assure you most people that have responded here are SUPER PRO M. I personally believe there should be such strict criminal laws on Infidelity that it would make a person think about it way more. Our society breads broken family's and its tragic.
I get that you want to make your M work. Now lets roll up our sleeves and get to work. That is exactly what it will take. As long as her sleeves are rolled up too smile
SSA is a great guideline follow it to the letter. EN's have to be understood to be met. I dont "need" to talk to vent emotionally but most women do. YOU need to become an expert at meeting your wifes EN's. And she needs to do the same. Love busters need to be identified and done away with. Learn and practice both policy's of Joint Agreement and of Radical Honesty.
Its a tough battle my man. Im there. This is and should be a life changing event. Happiness are for those that are willing to do the work for life. Its a marathon not a race. So set small goals and accomplish one at a time.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Deception - 05/31/11 04:25 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
I respect the warnings but like everyone else's my situation is different.

Sorry if you feel people are being negative, but this is one of the biggest mistakes that you can make when trying to recover, thinking that your situation is different and that all the rules don't apply to you. I can't tell you how many posters have argued only to come back later and say "you were right". In fact, I believe you have already done that at least once on this thread.

No one would be doing you any favors by just patting you on the back and not pointing out mistakes they see being made.

If you truly feel you can veer from the "narrow path" of recovery that Dr Harley describes, I strongly urge you to call/email into his radio show and get his professional opinion.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/31/11 04:28 PM
SAA and His Needs, Her Needs came today. Read 40 pages, looking good. I thought about this for a couple of days and I decided since everyone's A is unique Id show you the email we got from OM. This came to my FWW email after OMW sent me an email demanding I speak to her and threatening to mass email everyone about it. And, it came after I spoke with OMW about us having no futher contact like our spouses and gave her as much MB technique I could muster. She wanted me to know my wife is not the innocent victim my FWW is portraying and needed to tell me some specifics (of which I knew them already and I was telling more things OM had yet to disclose to her). I sent OMW an email the following morning as she is distraught and I felt since we are linked forever by this thing and I have some of your help working for me Id try to give her more courage to get all the truth she needs and to move on. We had about a dozen back and forth emails where I held the high road and accuse neither OM nor my FWW of anything, just was preaching to look to the future with an eye on the past. Then I told her the emails are to end and wont be responding and that my FWW is reading each one with me. FWW got this in her email just afterwards. I editted as appropriate for the blog:


"I know you're going to show this to Michael so even though I'm sending it to you I'm writing it to both. I just saw (my wife's) last email to Michael and need to write something myself since those were not my words. These are...I'm truly sorry for my actions that brought all of this on. It was stupid and very
selfish. I hope that one day you can look past it and see that there is and was goodness in me. (My FWW), I did truly care about you. I wish you both nothing but the best and do hope that Michael's professional life brings him much success.
He deserves it. I will continue to miss (my kids) very much. I have no doubt that both of them will grow into great teenagers and adults, and its going to kill me that I can't be a part of their accomplishments. - OM"


So, OM called FWW for his closure 3 days after dday where according to my FWW she told him to F-off (in fact, FWW changed all of our phone numbers as soon as she got home) and my FWW made the mistake of trying to track his wife thru him (with me right there) the day of the threatening emails and thats been the all contact. She regretting doing it as we now know its forbidden.

Is my situation a bit unique? Maybe?

Still working to erase this thing from my every thought.

Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 05/31/11 04:39 PM
Quote
Is my situation a bit unique? Maybe?
No, Mike, I'm sorry, but this is a typical affair.

Your wayward wife needs to change her email to ensure that she receives no further contact from OM.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/31/11 04:42 PM
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Quote
Is my situation a bit unique? Maybe?
No, Mike, I'm sorry, but this is a typical affair.

Your wayward wife needs to change her email to ensure that she receives no further contact from OM.

I was referring to the email from OM. I have access to her email account and I check all the time. I check her cell phone all the time. If this a typical situation, Im OK with that. Just keeping you guys up on my deal.

Posted By: Surfer88 Re: Deception - 05/31/11 04:45 PM
Ohhhhhh Mike. Please heed the advice you're getting.
Posted By: Surfer88 Re: Deception - 05/31/11 04:46 PM
There is NOTHING unique here.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/31/11 04:52 PM
What have I done thats not heeding the advice? Ive done all to keep them from contacting each other. Ive gotten all the details I need to know what went on. Ive made committments as did my FWW to stay with each and I have accepted her apology and we are down the path. Its less than a month old this thing and I just got the books.

Give me a break. As soon as I get a good feeling that I can do this and Im not in a crappy mood someone makes a crack like this and Im thinking what did I do? Am I screwing up the process?

OK, FWW dialing the OM to get his neurotic wife to pick up the phone was less than ideal, I told her never to dial it again. She did it IN FRONT OF ME.

Im being told by a friend in the know to join a support group, if Im going to get abused when I really think Im following the plan as close as I can, then no thanks to that. This is anonymous and youre killing me.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 05/31/11 05:00 PM

Quote
What have I done thats not heeding the advice? Ive done all to keep them from contacting each other.


Then how did this contact from OM happen?

Quote
Then I told her the emails are to end and wont be responding and that my FWW is reading each one with me. FWW got this in her email just afterwards.


Again, Mike. She needs to change her email address.
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: Deception - 05/31/11 05:01 PM
Mike this OM letter doesn't sound all that different than what we have seen b4. Hes such a great guy. Now lets all drag him out to the woodshed for a great guy party. smile
Your doing great man dont be defensive. I am certainly not here to hurt you and I want to help if I can.
Your doing great so tell us whats next for you? SSA is the guide.
How are you holding up with the Anger and resentment?
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Deception - 05/31/11 05:04 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
What have I done thats not heeding the advice?

Aside from what mb points out, changing all of the ways that OM can contact your W, I also advised you to keep in contact with OMW and not share those emails with your W. OMW needs to know she can come to you if there is any whiff of any further contact without your W knowing about it.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 05/31/11 05:07 PM
Quote
OMW needs to know she can come to you if there is any whiff of any further contact without your W knowing about it.
ITA. OMW knows she's talking to both you and your WW when she emails, and she tailors her emails accordingly. This will serve no one.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/31/11 05:09 PM
OK. Gotcha. She'll have a new emails and I will contact OMW down the road.

Anger and resentment are up and down. Two nights ago I crushed her. Last night a little bit. I guess because the kids are asleep, but nighttime is for battling I guess. And since she's taking sleeping meds is like fighting yourself.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/31/11 05:10 PM
Just tell me what ITA is. You use it often and dont get that one.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/31/11 05:14 PM
Truthfully, regarding whiffing anything, my FWW spent 2 years watching OMW kid and having an affair with her husband in that home, she couldnt smell a blazing wildfire if her butt was on fire.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 05/31/11 05:15 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
Just tell me what ITA is. You use it often and dont get that one.
I Totally Agree.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 05/31/11 05:16 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
Truthfully, regarding whiffing anything, my FWW spent 2 years watching OMW and having an affair with her husband in that home, she couldnt smell a blazing wildfire if her butt was on fire.
Yeah, but Life just gave her a crash-course in fire awareness with Smokey the Bear.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Deception - 05/31/11 05:38 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
Anger and resentment are up and down. Two nights ago I crushed her. Last night a little bit. I guess because the kids are asleep, but nighttime is for battling I guess. And since she's taking sleeping meds is like fighting yourself.

Mike, I also asked you about ADs and you never responded. Dr Harley recommends these for the BS if you are struggling. The AOs and DJs are harmful to your R. Have you considered this (ADs)?
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Deception - 05/31/11 05:41 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
Truthfully, regarding whiffing anything, my FWW spent 2 years watching OMW kid and having an affair with her husband in that home, she couldnt smell a blazing wildfire if her butt was on fire.

Many BS's blindly trust before Dday and become awesome snoopers after Dday. Myself included. This is very common.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/31/11 06:01 PM
Mike, I also asked you about ADs and you never responded. Dr Harley recommends these for the BS if you are struggling. The AOs and DJs are harmful to your R. Have you considered this (ADs)? [/quote]

Youre kidding me with all this initials? what are you asking me?
Posted By: Tanam Re: Deception - 05/31/11 06:09 PM
AD anti depressants

BS betrayed spouse

AO angry outburst

DJ disrepsectful Judgements

R recovery

yes I know you were joking!!

Keep on keeping on hun, been following your story, so so like mine it's uncanny. You aren't married to a ginger are you cos you so could be OWH in so many ways!! smile

Yes I know you aren't, wrong continent.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/31/11 06:11 PM
Just taking an anti anxiety pill. Xanax like. My friend is encouraging me to step up the drug power for me to cope. Not really interesting in pharma.

Angry outburst, yes lotsa of them.

Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/31/11 06:14 PM
I know about how unuseful the AO and DJ are. I spent yesterday begging her to forgive me the 45 minutes the night before I spent unleashing them on her. I have a buddy who is FWH and he said he still get thems 2 years after d-day. He did tell me hes about ready to throw in the towel. They didnt fight as much when he was lying and they argue now that he telling the truth.

Adultery is bad stuff.
Posted By: Tanam Re: Deception - 05/31/11 06:17 PM
Bite your tongue, say nothing, breathe, take the anti D's but they do work better with talking therapy, they take 2 weeks to kick in and will take the rawness away so you can focus on what it is you actually want to do.

There really is nothing to be gained by kicking off. Smile, even when you wanna scream.

Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 05/31/11 06:38 PM
You asked if the drama surrounding your wife's withdrawal from her affair (with all the e-mails flying around) is unique. My answer is:

"Same (dung), different flies."

YOUR reactions, however, are outliers in the distribution of those among the BS's on this site, in that you evidently cannot, or refuse to, learn that giving in to your baser impulses (AO's, DJ's, etc) on virtually EVERY occasion do NOTHING except reinforce to your WW that her continuing to work toward recovery might be condemned to failure.

There comes a point when the BS has "made the sale" to the WS, that the WS's actions were hurtful, disgusting, etc, etc. After that, continuing to throw it in her face is just sadistic.

I want to see your next post say, "I felt the anger, resentment, and outrage within me growing, but just to show that SOB NeverGuessed that he's wrong, I controlled myself, went for a walk (drive, run, swim, workout) and got it out of my system in a way which would not cause me to have to apologize yet again to WW."

Can you do that? Just once?
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: Deception - 05/31/11 06:42 PM
STOP ANGRY OUTBURSTS IMMEDIATELY. Its abuse. Plan A is about you my brother. Its time to pay the bar tab.YOU have to become what you want her to be. You lead by example. You live by honesty and openness. You set Extraordinary Precautions up for yourself. You establish boundaries and affirm them to your WW.
Its coined the carrot and the stick. Im sure someone has the post handy. Get her eating the carrot while giving the stick is a balance.
Stop and Breath. Your under stress. But dont make decisions on emotion and compartmentalize the anger and resentment as best as you can and yes get stronger Meds if you need them. If you have killed the A and she is willing to compensate then quit wasting time on yesterday and start making plans for today. If you continue Angry Outbursts and DJ you are asking for a plan D. (D=Divorce) Believe me I know its ruff mentally to deal with. But if you really really want this keep your eyes on the prize and follow the plan WITH your wife. Start filling up her love bank at every opportunity being careful to make no withdrawals. Unless she violated No Contact rule then you need the stick. Affirming that you will not remain under contact conditions.
You need to send your "buddy" with the FWW to us :)Seriously he is in need also as he is headed to having a CWW = Currently wayward wife
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 05/31/11 06:49 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
Just taking an anti anxiety pill. Xanax like. My friend is encouraging me to step up the drug power for me to cope. Not really interesting in pharma.

Angry outburst, yes lotsa of them.
Mike, you need to vent in another way. I told you my story - AO's are so destructive to healing! I could weep at the time I wasted and the damage I caused in our recovery, acting like a crazed wretch! It's not whether you're interested in pills or not - aren't you interested in getting the help you need??
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/31/11 06:49 PM
NG-Your tough love is awesome. Im working on it. I am. I swear. Its not an everyday thing where I unload. But I know, it sets back recovery each time. If medicating or running is going to get me to stop hurting her and potentially derailing our recovery, Ill do it. I dont enjoy it. I freaking hate it. You'd think we do because it make the BS feel better. It didnt day 1 and didnt day 21 Sunday night.

I did tell I fear these AO are going to do more than just hurt her and ultimately could screw the pooch, as it were. But, like most, she understands and takes the hit like a man. Zero sum game.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/31/11 06:51 PM
[/quote]Mike, you need to vent in another way. I told you my story - AO's are so destructive to healing! I could weep at the time I wasted and the damage I caused in our recovery, acting like a crazed wretch! It's not whether you're interested in pills or not - aren't you interested in getting the help you need?? [/quote]

Yes. I want help. Just not more doctors. Im working on no more AOs. I know the time they waste.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 05/31/11 06:55 PM
Originally Posted by Hilsmonemoretime
You need to send your "buddy" with the FWW to us :)Seriously he is in need also as he is headed to having a CWW = Currently wayward wife

Just sent him here today and encouraged him to login and get healed. He was the WS. She is the unable to get over it wife.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 05/31/11 07:16 PM
I'd get her here as well, Mike.
Posted By: LuvsDavid Re: Deception - 05/31/11 07:26 PM
Originally Posted by Tanam
Bite your tongue, say nothing, breathe, take the anti D's but they do work better with talking therapy, they take 2 weeks to kick in and will take the rawness away so you can focus on what it is you actually want to do.

There really is nothing to be gained by kicking off. Smile, even when you wanna scream.

Actually Xanax is pretty instant but it just takes the edge off nervous anxiety. AD's like effexor and prozac take awhile to kick in but also take awhile to come back off them without withdrawls. (They are great for long term problems which most of the time this is long term recovery) Xanax is usually in addition to them for sudden attacks of anxiety
and anger.

(My whole family tree has been off and on AD's for pretty much my whole life is how I know so much about them)
Posted By: markos Re: Deception - 05/31/11 07:33 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
Mike, you need to vent in another way. I told you my story - AO's are so destructive to healing! I could weep at the time I wasted and the damage I caused in our recovery, acting like a crazed wretch! It's not whether you're interested in pills or not - aren't you interested in getting the help you need?? [/quote]

Yes. I want help. Just not more doctors.[/quote]

It can usually be done without doctors and drugs. smile

Quote
Im working on no more AOs.

How?

Have you read Dr. Harley's chapter on Angry Outbursts in Love Busters?

Quote
I know the time they waste.

Yes, they do waste a lot of time.

Do you know the emotional harm they inflict?
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Deception - 05/31/11 07:44 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
Just taking an anti anxiety pill. Xanax like. My friend is encouraging me to step up the drug power for me to cope. Not really interesting in pharma.

Angry outburst, yes lotsa of them.

Mike, this is an example of what Dr Harley says about ADs:
Quote
Since plan B (and plan A, for that matter), is extremely stressful for the betrayed spouse, I usually recommend that he or she ask a physician to prescribe anti-depressant medication to be taken throughout the crisis. This not only greatly reduces the suffering of the betrayed spouse, but it also helps keep a clear head at a time when patience and wise decisions are crucial. Anti-depressant medication does not numb the betrayed spouse to the crisis, it actually helps raise him or her above emotional reactions that would otherwise prevent clear-headed thinking. Why suffer and and make poor choices when anti-depressant medication can help ease your pain and improve your concentration in this time of unprecedented crisis?

I just used almost daily vigorous exercise in early recovery and have read that it works just as well as ADs. If you are not an exerciser or if that isn't working to help you with your emotions, again, think about talking to your doctor.

Other than that, if you feel an angry outburst or other lovebuster coming on, until you are able to control them, please leave the room, etc, until you cool off.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 05/31/11 07:56 PM
Originally Posted by Tanam
Keep on keeping on hun, been following your story, so so like mine it's uncanny. You aren't married to a ginger are you cos you so could be OWH in so many ways!! smile

Yes I know you aren't, wrong continent.

I'm married to a ginger-nut. Is there a support group for that?
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: Deception - 05/31/11 08:07 PM
All solid stuff MikeSmile now go show her who you want to be smile XANAX really helps me. If I feel highly anxious I take one. In the last 2 weeks I only had 3-4 days I needed them. Usually 15 minutes later Im good. That anxiety is gone. If I feel Anger arise I try to walk away or stop the conversation for a few minutes.
FILL UP HER LOVE BANK. You have so much invested that its the right steps. Make your M rise as a phoenix from the ashes.(From DR Harley's quote on MB Radio disclaimer LOL) Let her earn your forgiveness. But become the better man, father and husband because its just the right person to be.
Posted By: Tanam Re: Deception - 05/31/11 08:10 PM
CV - perhaps there should be!

Guess I am just biased, can't think why :p
Posted By: mehr Re: Deception - 05/31/11 08:11 PM
This all sounds very typical, not an expert, but have been reading a lot of stories these days...
Posted By: reading Re: Deception - 05/31/11 09:19 PM
Ginger-sminger (I'm one and not challenging in the least).
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 06/01/11 12:51 AM
NG-Your tough love is awesome. Im working on it. I am. I swear. Its not an everyday thing where I unload. But I know, it sets back recovery each time. If medicating or running is going to get me to stop hurting her and potentially derailing our recovery, Ill do it. I dont enjoy it. I freaking hate it. You'd think we do because it make the BS feel better. It didnt day 1 and didnt day 21 Sunday night.

That bit of knowledge is a great start, MS. But given the way the brain works, turn it into a positive action/incentive pair, something like:

"If I walk away without lashing out, I will feel beter about my situation tomorrow." Repeat that until it's part of your being.

You've got dozens of "fans" out here, pulling for you to win this.
Posted By: Surfer88 Re: Deception - 06/01/11 01:40 AM
Mike: quick input...you have the BEST advice going, and when you read Never Guessed? Read and re-read along with everything else you learn. Take it all in as you'll find that the common denomitator (sp?) is the same.

You're doing great. It's hard, but don't confuse caring with judgment. We care. A lot. 2 x 4s are given with maajor care.

Smiles to you!
Posted By: Surfer88 Re: Deception - 06/01/11 01:42 AM
NG is awesome!!
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 06/01/11 01:49 AM
Originally Posted by Surfer88
NG is awesome!!
Oy, geez. Next thing you know he's going to be running for president!

And I might even vote for him. dance2
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 06/01/11 02:30 AM
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Originally Posted by Surfer88
NG is awesome!!
Oy, geez. Next thing you know he's going to be running for president!

And I might even vote for him. dance2

NG for President!!!! (as long as he's not a ginger)

(Mike, sorry for hijacking your thread bro!)
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 06/01/11 05:37 AM
Quote
Oy, geez. Next thing you know he's going to be running for president!

And I might even vote for him. dance2
Quote
NG for President!!!! (as long as he's not a ginger)
Thank you, kind supporters, but I think I'd prefer to devote my time to this site than to being President.
It seems that politicos tend towards being WS's, anyways.

(Besides, I'm MARRIED to a ginger, like you, CV, which is probably more an indicator of serious character flaws than BEING one is.)

Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/01/11 11:22 AM
Last night on the little league field I should be having fun watching the kid play and I was there but not. I was an empty shell. It normally would a time when Im loud and enjoying my self. But no. I felt sadness so I took a little walk and did some breathing stuff, but brutally sad. Being happy again seems so distant to me. Like Ill never get there again. My wife is making plans with friends for come over for bbqs and Im like how do I fake it? And, since I am vowing not to AO any further and do some cool down options, am I getting little satisfaction that she is watching me have my "sadness stroll" during the game? Im not lashing out, but Im still showing her I very upset. Its not an AO, but I feel this passive aggressive thing that is probably almost as bad as an AO is in effectiveness.

I know NG and others will say the "sadness stroll" is another way to hurt her and derail the recovery. Im just so sad. Im managing my madness as best as possible but the sad is hard to manage.
Posted By: chickadee1 Re: Deception - 06/01/11 11:38 AM
sadness stroll - love that- doing the same today. rollercoaster...

is that AO like?? would like to know also??
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/01/11 12:34 PM
And now that we've changed phone numbers, her email address and nearly everything but our home address, people are asking why all these changes? Factor in my general malaise I cant help but be in, which is contrary to my normal personality, I fear that someone will figure this out now the FWW is not working for him anymore and other things that are not the normal to us. And, as I told FWW, once this gets out in our community, we have to move. Im not going stay in a town where its known my childrens mother did what she did. Not fair to them to have to live with this.
Posted By: Tanam Re: Deception - 06/01/11 01:01 PM
I don't think a sadness stroll is an AO unless of course you are making it obvious, otherwise it's just taking yourself off for a bit. Much better than an AO.

In my own experience Mike, the sadness is the main emotion I was/am left with. Just sadness that everything is now different, you lost people you thought were friends and life is changed, including your own view of it.

The hurt does die down to a dull roar, but then I lived with the Just good friends bit, while never fully believing it for 5 years so although the last DDay hurt, it was also a resolution. So maybe it just takes time and I am further along the path than you.

It's never fair on the kids, but maybe moving would be good too, a fresh start, new memories and less triggers.

Today I am being Pollyanna!!
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 06/01/11 01:06 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
Last night on the little league field I should be having fun watching the kid play and I was there but not. I was an empty shell. It normally would a time when Im loud and enjoying my self. But no. I felt sadness so I took a little walk and did some breathing stuff, but brutally sad. Being happy again seems so distant to me. Like Ill never get there again. My wife is making plans with friends for come over for bbqs and Im like how do I fake it? And, since I am vowing not to AO any further and do some cool down options, am I getting little satisfaction that she is watching me have my "sadness stroll" during the game? Im not lashing out, but Im still showing her I very upset. Its not an AO, but I feel this passive aggressive thing that is probably almost as bad as an AO is in effectiveness.

I know NG and others will say the "sadness stroll" is another way to hurt her and derail the recovery. Im just so sad. Im managing my madness as best as possible but the sad is hard to manage.


Mike,
Just finished reading a nifty little book. It's called "Christians Get Depressed Too". It brought up some great points. it noted that anger is often related to control issues, but also it is related to depression. Often it can be the outward manifestation of depressive feelings and thoughts. True, sometimes you have to put on a game face, but sometimes you just have to take those walks. I think it's ok to show her you are upset as long as you're not having AO's. Trust me, she may not tell you, but she notices.

My W and I just reflected on this the other day. I am finding out that she noticed every time I was barely holding it together. I remember feeling like every good thing I enjoyed was stolen from me and that I'd never be able to enjoy things again... I felt like I was living that Linda Ronstadt song:

I've been cheated
Been mistreated
When will I be loved

I've been pushed down
I've been pushed 'round
When will I be loved

What i found though, Mike is that it is a passing feeling. As we stay the course and work on our marriage and our spouse works along side us, we begin to have a change in our worldview. You know what i mean by worldview, right? That network of thoughts and beliefs that shape the way we view the world around us? It's shattered with the discovery of affairs. It takes time to rebuild it, the threads of it have come apart. As we begin working on restoring our M's we reweave it tighter than before. As this begins happening, we find that the joy to life slowly begins returning.

It will return Mike. It will take time. You've just been shot with a 12 gauge at point blank range and that takes some time to heal. You will find that as you are working the MB principles, the easier they will become, and you will realize "hey, did I just have a good time?"

In the meantime? Have your friends over. You may or may not enjoy the BBQ. I found there were times I had to just excuse myself for a bit, pull myself together, and come back with a "smile" on my face. BUT!!! It DOES get easier.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 06/01/11 01:09 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
And now that we've changed phone numbers, her email address and nearly everything but our home address, people are asking why all these changes? Factor in my general malaise I cant help but be in, which is contrary to my normal personality, I fear that someone will figure this out now the FWW is not working for him anymore and other things that are not the normal to us. And, as I told FWW, once this gets out in our community, we have to move. Im not going stay in a town where its known my childrens mother did what she did. Not fair to them to have to live with this.

How bout this for an answer:

"We decided that after x number of years that we needed a change in life."

Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/01/11 01:16 PM
The kids are entrenched in this community in a million things. Me, Im ready to go this afternoon, and FWW will go when and wherever I say, she said so. We would need to tell the kids why and they are too smart to fool. And this has nothing to do with avoiding prospective contact with OM, this is just a result of the A. More guilt and hurt for my FWW. This things sucks on so many levels is scary.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 06/01/11 01:23 PM
Quote
And now that we've changed phone numbers, her email address and nearly everything but our home address, people are asking why all these changes?
This one's easy: FWW changed her contact info because she'd been getting tons of junk mail and calls, and she just got sick of them.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 06/01/11 01:29 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
The kids are entrenched in this community in a million things. Me, Im ready to go this afternoon, and FWW will go when and wherever I say, she said so. We would need to tell the kids why and they are too smart to fool. And this has nothing to do with avoiding prospective contact with OM, this is just a result of the A. More guilt and hurt for my FWW. This things sucks on so many levels is scary.
Your kids don't know?
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/01/11 01:33 PM
[/quote]Your kids don't know? [/quote]

They do. They know mommy had innapropriate relationship with OM, who they know very well. Didnt get into length of time and real details but they know my hurt and we have discussed their feelings and they are in therapy of their own. We have talked about missing OM's family and how sometimes good people make mistakes that affect innocent people like them and its important as family to forgive and be sad sometimes. Just wish I could take that advice.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/01/11 01:36 PM
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Quote
And now that we've changed phone numbers, her email address and nearly everything but our home address, people are asking why all these changes?
This one's easy: FWW changed her contact info because she'd been getting tons of junk mail and calls, and she just got sick of them.


Yes, I even added that FWW changed her email to a more professional one for the resumes she sending out. We said we all got new numbers for new plan we are on. Which made people shake their head because porting phone numbe'rs to new phones has been happening for years. Whatever. Were good on this issue.
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: Deception - 06/01/11 02:43 PM
CV , I needed that pick me up at that exact time TY smile

Mike I just did a sad run but shes at work. Perhaps it is time to move your family. But I still think yesterdays advice needs re visited. Get stronger Anti D's. Your pain is evident in your posts and I know the meds helped me. Im sure they stopped several AO.
You need some "Time Vision" because right now time is creeping for you. Did for us all. This is so fresh that "seeing" is a problem. I think small goals are in order. Today you will have a great day! 24 hour goal.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/01/11 02:48 PM
Originally Posted by Hilsmonemoretime
CV , I needed that pick me up at that exact time TY smile

Mike I just did a sad run but shes at work. Perhaps it is time to move your family. But I still think yesterdays advice needs re visited. Get stronger Anti D's. Your pain is evident in your posts and I know the meds helped me. Im sure they stopped several AO.
You need some "Time Vision" because right now time is creeping for you. Did for us all. This is so fresh that "seeing" is a problem. I think small goals are in order. Today you will have a great day! 24 hour goal.

Just left a msg for my Dr. to call me so I can ask for something a bit stronger.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 06/01/11 02:49 PM
Originally Posted by Hilsmonemoretime
CV , I needed that pick me up at that exact time TY smile

Mike I just did a sad run but shes at work. Perhaps it is time to move your family. But I still think yesterdays advice needs re visited. Get stronger Anti D's. Your pain is evident in your posts and I know the meds helped me. Im sure they stopped several AO.
You need some "Time Vision" because right now time is creeping for you. Did for us all. This is so fresh that "seeing" is a problem. I think small goals are in order. Today you will have a great day! 24 hour goal.
hurray

You are very welcome! I like your plan. I remember sometimes just struggling minute by minute... Small steps. with the big picture in mind.



Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/01/11 02:56 PM
Moving right now, to me at least, is letting the A win. I have no evidence to think OM nor my FWW have sought each other in private. And, Im on her like a blanket. As I read the SAA book, I see the addiction that existed betw them. But, I do see a lot of relief thats its over on my FWW side. Now, OM is another story and I dont know his state of mind. We have cut off nearly everyway for him to reach her that I can thing of. He wont call our home, doesnt have her new cell or email, both of which I monitor, and because of the damage he knows he helped cause to my kids who he's know since they were babies, and I know Ill get beat up for this, I have to believe there is a heart in there knowing how further screwed up he'd make them by contacting their mother. This is man with severe mental issues so anything is possible like all of you jumped down my throat to inform me. But, he has got to be embarassed beyond compare about the taping of my FWW with him without telling her and his somewhat of an apology letter last weekend sort of helped me think he may be done with her.

Im as vigilant as a mf'er for him. Believe me.
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: Deception - 06/01/11 03:18 PM
Mike GREAT MOVE! Xanax was the best one for me. At first they make you a little sleepy and everything tastes good. Still cant figure out how I dropped 15 pounds taking them, guess I forgot to eat. In a few days the sleepy goes away and it has a calming effect on anxiety. I would plan to be on them for 30 days and then work with your DR to decrease dosage for 30 if this is his prescription. Then maybe the every now and then as I am. (sleepy comes back if you skip a few days of dosage I find.)
CV Baby steps wink Its how I get from day to day. I take one at a time. Shew, breath.
Mikesmile you can do this. Your WW is willing to compensate from what I see you saying. Stick to the course as MelodyLane just reminded me. Recovery can truly take YEARS. Breath. Years. Breath. smile But Today all we have to deal with is Today. Work the plan TODAY and plan to work it when tomorrow is today.
Today Im going to improve 1% better than I was yesterday at being a better Husband, Father and a better man.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/01/11 03:35 PM
Hils, I down at almost 10 pounds in under 4 wks. Butterflies in the stomach make it tough to want to eat a lot. However, when I saw my Dr. after dday, he asked me to drop 20, dont think he meant before my 30 day follow up visit next week, but maybe I can surprise/concern him by doing it.
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: Deception - 06/01/11 03:47 PM
Yep u need stronger meds. The mental battle you are in with yourself will be a huge struggle Mike. Even under the best conditions.Resentment is probably the #1 thing a BS has to overcome for the M to move forward. But now that your getting back lean and mean maybe its time for a little self care as well! Walks /Bubble baths/ going out for an Ice Cream. Things you can invite her to do with you.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/01/11 04:29 PM
Originally Posted by Hilsmonemoretime
Yep u need stronger meds. The mental battle you are in with yourself will be a huge struggle Mike. Even under the best conditions.Resentment is probably the #1 thing a BS has to overcome for the M to move forward. But now that your getting back lean and mean maybe its time for a little self care as well! Walks /Bubble baths/ going out for an Ice Cream. Things you can invite her to do with you.

Got em coming. Something in the Lexapro family of meds. Doc says it takes 2 weeks to a month to kick in, but we'll get 'er going tonight.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Deception - 06/01/11 04:36 PM
My H went on ADs after dday and it was lexapro. They told him it would take a couple of weeks but he started to feel better after a few days. Hopefully that is the case for you as well. Hang in there smile
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/01/11 06:08 PM
Lex is pricey even with my copay, going generic with Celexa. Doc said either or would be fine.
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: Deception - 06/01/11 06:35 PM
It was like drinking a glass of water for me. Lexapro and Zoloft. I tried both and I couldn't tell I took a thing even 2 -3 weeks out. I had to hire a new MD as my long time family PA was way to non invasive on his approach. Hes an herbal kinda guy. I needed something quick and effective.
I think you may need to fully explain yourself to the MD so as he understands your not just depressed, but in fact are traumatized. I agree the PHs general approach should be less invasive/aggressive in treatments. But I dont take a knife to a gun fight either. He gave you a butter knife. Mike does he know about your weight loss attitude etc and the mental state you have been forced into?
Dr H's research shows infidelity as more traumatic than rape. You thinking a rape victim that has been traumatized gets Lex? Seek a second opinion or be open and honest with your current MD.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/01/11 06:53 PM
Yes. One of the things my FWW insisted and what everyone has said is I need to think of me first so after dday, I had my first physical in a ton of years. And I laid out completely what Id been through and its very fresh then. So he knows the level of damage here and broached the subj of ADs on that visit. He said today, that on my 30 day followup next week the subject of ADs would have come up again and would have asked about depression. And, i would have said, ummm, yeah. Its my first time with such pharma so Im going to have to see if I can detech any difference or not. No baseline to compare other than my former happy go lucky self.
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: Deception - 06/01/11 07:26 PM
My second MD had been through a A so he knew what the pain was. I still use him 5 years later. Everyone is different so try it, but if it isn't making a difference change it quickly. I personally dont feel Lex is as of an immediate effect as desired. More of a medication you would need to maintain for 6 months or so. There are others that have immediate effects. But Im no MD either so do as you think best for you.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/02/11 02:10 PM
May '11 will go down as the worst in history for my family. And, my wife disagreed as although her worst secret and near destruction of everything dear to her almost happened she feels being discovered ended an era that she wanted to end for a very long time. And, as we move to further along our path of forgiveness and growing our affection and love of each Im still stuck in a depression which now Im getting the help of meds to control. So as I go each day tryng to keep my anger and sadness in check and trying to be "man", all I think about is how I have to swallow the poop of my wifes A and buck up and be strong. Its an odd thing. We spoke calmly last night about my inner conflict of wanting more information and my desire not to hurt and open her wounds. Im told when the anger and/or sadness become too much pick yourself up and go for a run. But its alone in my thoughts were the anger comes from. I know everyone will answer with a single word: time. Bring it on. Now. Six month, 2 years, 5 years, do it now because Im making promises not to AO at her and not to sulk around her and the kids, but its very hard. Our amateur psychologist/friend who I mentioned a while back gave me the toughest of love yesterday. She was hormonal and has stomach virus but her words were clear: "Stop the f-ing whining, boo hoo'ing, woe is me BS, the woman before Mother's day doesnt exist anymore. You got a new person who needed mother's day to finally grow up. Stop the crying and sad stroll or mad meandering and get a grip. If your kids saw you sulking, I pity them that they had to see that. AND, you know what, all that crying and sad strolls and other BS youre pulling is to get attention on you. LOOK AT ME, WIFE, LOOK HOW SAD I AM. Weak, unmanly BS. Now f-ing stop it." She was awesome.

Now how to do all that?

I keep on thinking of what CV said 100 posts ago or so "you won, she chose you" and thats really what its about. I have the words printed and in my wallet and on my desk.

Time. Thats the other thing, time.

She said to me last night during our calm conversation, she owes me 7 years when she was here, but not with me. Not sex, but seven years of her. And she really did start dday.

Sounds good to me.
Posted By: LongWayFromHome Re: Deception - 06/02/11 04:12 PM
As a woman BS, I feel (felt, whatever) exactly the same way about having the "swallow the poop" of the FWH's adultery. Time helps, yes, but along with time, the just compensation of a better than pre-A marriage is the other important factor.

The only way I (and other BSs) can somehow get past this, and it's not been easy, is to keep focusing on now, now, now and the future and NOT on the recent horrible past. If your W is attentive and loving and learns to meet your emotional needs and avoids love-busting, and if you do the same, the future will be better. I still have my bad days, but we just signed up for the Online MB course in the hopes that we will learn to systematically build a better marriage for our future.

Your friend said "The woman who existed before Mother's Day doesn't exist anymore." That's exactly what my husband says about himself. He says he hates that other person he was and wants to completely change. If your FWW feels the same way, there's hope. We can keep checking up on them, making sure there is transparency, and slowly the trust will rebuild.
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: Deception - 06/02/11 04:15 PM
Wow Mike thats heavy my man.
But you aren't gonna swallow any poop of the A. You are giving HER the chance to earn forgiveness. Its not a give deal. She will have to work daily, hourly and by the seconds to EARN that again.
Dr H says that surprisingly A's don't end the M in most cases. In fact quite the opposite. If handled properly they flourish to new heights thought never attainable.
Be glad the old wife is dead and the old Mike. Because really, he wasn't happy anyhow was he? He was content but not happy.
That pep talk makes some sense. But it discounts some valid issues. Unmanly BS? No I think crying and sadness is deserved by anyone in trauma. A bus just ran over all three of your children so MAN UP. NAH I dont think so. Grief is not unmanly.
I do think what she was trying to say is and DR H agrees with is that we must think about Today and do not dwell on the past. Plan for the future. Turn words into actions today. Accept the things you cannot change and change the things you cannot accept.
What jumps out to me the biggest in your last post is you still have questions you want to ask about the affair? A major part of healing YOU is to not have any unanswered questions about the A. Your FWW must reveal anything and everything you may want to still ask. BUT once that has been done its gone from speaking of it again.

Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 06/02/11 05:44 PM
...all I think about is how I have to swallow the poop of my wifes A...

...the alternative being??????

MS, let's review how you got here.

YOU (alone) had a choice between two paths (with some small sub-paths possible):

  • You could have kicked the....woman.... to the curb, lawyered-up, filed, and driven the marriage to an end. You would not have had to deal with the "Whys?" and the pain of anticipating letting back into your heart-of-hearts the woman who trampled that heart the first time she was there. You would also have impacted your children and their future negatively.
  • You could have "manned up" taken on the burden of bringing her back to your marriage with the associated pain (and poop-consumption) that is a necessary part of the process. This would maintain the marriage, and your commitment made a long time ago, to those words about poorer, worse, sickness, "til death you do part".
YOU made the choice. Dung digestion is part of the menu you've selected. Yes, it's distasteful. But if you acknowledge that you are doing it of YOUR OWN VOLITION, it might make the taste more palatable.

Your WW might not be there, yet, but most of us FBH's have learned that when the full enormity of what she did, and what you're doing NOW to repair the damage, finally hits, she'll be using the bigger spoon to dispose of the mess.

BTW: My FWW still does not fully comprehend why I went through the recovery process. Our children were grown; I could have bailed with little collateral damage. Because of some history, the likelihood would have been she would have paying spousal support, if any. Whenever she expresses her doubts I explain that I made promises thirty-five years ago, and I do not break my word. You are showing the same "grit". Keep strong, MS.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 06/02/11 06:03 PM
Ahem. toe tap It seems very clear to me that your amateur psychologist friend needs to hang on to her day job. You are grieving, Mike! You are grieving a huge betrayal! You are in anguish over the loss of a trusting, innocent time pre-A, when the thought of spending the rest of your life with your WW was a no-brainer, obvious future! That blew up in your face and you are left to pick up the pieces and rebuild the dam! If you need to cry, CRY. If you need to walk, WALK! If you need to have your WW look at you to see the damage she has wrought, SO BE IT!

That is NOT unmanly BS. It is not weak for a man to cry! Ugh, can we EVER get over those stupid, ignorant stereotypes?! doh2

She was NOT awesome! Would she say the same thing to a husband whose spouse has died? Would she say to 'get over it' then?? I'll bet not! You are suffering the death of what you believed was your marital reality!

Quote
Now how to do all that?
Smart question. You know why? Because you CAN'T do that until you have grieved and begun healing! There is NO magic switch that you can flip!

You need TIME. You need a transparent, honest marriage. You need a WW who is committed to helping you rebuild your M into an affair-proof, passionate marriage that no third party can sever.

And THAT, my friend, takes TIME. It is not aided by arm-chair psychologists who proceed to take issue with your grief and think a stern talking-to will set you straight! For crying out loud, Lord deliver us from those ignorant people and teach them to keep their mouths shut when they don't know what they're talking about!

Anyone else want to borrow my soapbox? rant2
Posted By: helpfordad Re: Deception - 06/02/11 06:08 PM
MS,

I just wanted to second what NG is saying (as he, and many other vets said to me as well). Your WW might not be there, yet, but when the "full enormity" of what she did hits, and what you're doing NOW to repair the damage, it will make a difference.

My W still questions (well, it's only been @ 3 months since exposure)why I've stayed to recover the M, knowing that I could have bailed (and still can) and that she wouldn't have a leg to stand on. She has stated how proud she is of me for working to salvage the M, be the leader of the family, and for carrying her as she has needed to process the shame, guilt, etc. from her A.

Whenever she expresses her doubts and says "I don't know what I did to deserve you remaing my life partner", I remind her I'm in this for the long haul and I CHOOSE this M / family. If needed, I also add that I will remain in the M so long as there is NC with OM and not another A, period. My boundaries.

Stay strong. It does matter to her.
Posted By: Northwood8900 Re: Deception - 06/02/11 06:21 PM
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Anyone else want to borrow my soapbox? rant2

Yeah, I'll bum it from you.

That "friend" of yours needs to try saying that crap to your face if her husband fools around on her. I'd have told her to go "have relations" with herself since she didn't have a clue as to what she was talking about, but I don't have a lot of patience sometimes smile

Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/03/11 12:50 AM
AO'd today.

She cried.

I cried. Told her I have no control over it. I dont.

Started the AD meds today. Please even me out soon.

I cant hurt her like Im doing. Im doing more damage to her and she is already damaged. Breaking my promise not to do it.

I apologized but she, again, understood.

Love bank withdrawal. Recovery starts again tomorrrow.

This sucks.
Posted By: pokerface Re: Deception - 06/03/11 01:18 AM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
AO'd today.

She cried.

I cried. Told her I have no control over it. I dont.

Started the AD meds today. Please even me out soon.

I cant hurt her like Im doing. Im doing more damage to her and she is already damaged. Breaking my promise not to do it.

I apologized but she, again, understood.

Love bank withdrawal. Recovery starts again tomorrrow.

This sucks.

Mike,

I used to do that too ( the AO). I remember how disgusted I was with myself afterward ... I just couldn't help it.

Then I was told a story. If you are pulled over by a cop and charged with something ridiculous that you didn't do ... would you blow up at the cop? No, you wouldn't. You CAN control it.

It's a process Mike to retrain how you react. And it takes time.

I used to count the days that I went without an AO ( like an alcoholic and his last drink). Every time I had an AO I had to start over at day one and it pissed me off. Eventually I got to the point where I could control it because I was determined not to start back at day one again. But it took a lot of effort to get there.

It's really hard being dealt the blow you were and anger is the normal reaction. Do better tomorrow and after. Apologize with no "buts".
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 06/03/11 04:09 AM
Your actions will eventually convince her to end her attempts at repairing the marriage. You know that.

The type of behavior you are exhibiting - the loss of self-control, and the subsequent "I feel so bad about it but just can't control myself" disclaimer - would not be acceptable in a twelve-year-old.

Several years ago I carelessly knocked over and broke a particularly favorite vase of my wife's. She immediately launched into the "...late Aunt Sheila.....from Holland.....hand-made.....imported.....one-of-a-kind......" verbal beating about my sloppy action. Finally, I looked at her and said, "Assuming I already feel pretty shi++y about breaking it, and can't be made to feel any worse, do you have anything else to say?" She stopped.

You might want to keep that sentiment in mind.

Also read this page from this site:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/03/11 05:40 AM
NG-

It was said Ben Franklin or Einstein who once said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

This wasnt a broken vase, though, this was our marriage vows, our commitment, our family, our life she broke so I get lattitude to for a bit more time to vent my grief to her. For how long, is a good question.

I take no pleasure but I dont have other way to say what I feel like I need to say. And what I need to say is ugly, demeaning, degrading, upsetting, and misrable. And completely unnecessary because its been said already and she knows precisely how hurt I am. Whats the good then? None.

Im sick.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/03/11 05:49 AM
Originally Posted by Hilsmonemoretime
Be glad the old wife is dead and the old Mike. Because really, he wasn't happy anyhow was he? He was content but not happy.

No, Hils, I wasnt really happy, but I told her dozen of times about my unhappiness and even thought of leaving more than once. She could have said at any point her happiness was coming from elsewhere. I begged her for affection and to be with her for years. I did and stuck around because Im not selfish enough to destroy my kids life. But, now Im being told to overlook my FWW selfishness and be a better husband. I WAS A GOOD HUSBAND.

This is actually the basis of todays AO. She could have said she's happy elesewhere but kept me around like a tool in the shed. Then it turned real ugly.
Posted By: Northwood8900 Re: Deception - 06/03/11 06:34 AM
Ok, so for tomorrow no AOs. Ok?

We get where you're coming from--that she shouldn't "get away" with this and it isn't fair for you to be the one asking for forgiveness, or whatever, but that's how it is sometimes.

If you can get through this, you guys can get better such that neither of you are keeping score. But the dynamic will change so often in the meantime and that's just the way it goes. So, just tell yourself that you won't get mad (in front of her) on Friday. Take it hour by hour if you have too.

Next week will hopefully be a little better, and the week after that a little better as well. Before you know it, months will be past and you'll be in a better place. This is all pretty recent, it just takes time and I know how cavalier that sounds.

Posted By: Tanam Re: Deception - 06/03/11 08:58 AM
Mike,

I am 6 months in from last Dday, NC letter etc, so it's still pretty raw some days.

I write the ugly stuff because I know that it's hardly helpful to keep AOing and it's not the way to repair anything.
On the first Dday 5 years ago I was on that day planning to tell him I was leaving I was so miserable, on the 2nd Dday I was going, out the door enough.

Both times I stayed, and things do get better, but he is also very clear that there will not be a third.

I write lots and lots, I write all the ugly stuff, to him, to her and then I close the journal, make a cup of tea and breathe. It's helpful, who knows one day he may even see it.

Giving your wife all the nasties are not going to help you or her. Write, write and write, get it out of your system and focus on today, going forward and maybe even use the old...if you hve nothing good to say, say nothing.

I feel for you but from someone who has been there, wanted to recover and sought ways to do that, if the marriage is what you want, then you have to work at it, this way helps no one.

If you want something to live you pay attention to it. If you want something to die you don't pay attention to it.

Pay attention to the things you want honey.

Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/03/11 01:46 PM
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
[[/list]YOU made the choice. Dung digestion is part of the menu you've selected. Yes, it's distasteful. But if you acknowledge that you are doing it of YOUR OWN VOLITION, it might make the taste more palatable.

NG-
I need to tell that this line has made my day and I laugh everytime I think of it. I had to even show my FWW and she laughed. At a time of a lot crying, we needed this laugh despite the underlying topic being not so funny.


I know I made the better choice of staying and bellying up to the crapola buffet and keeping my kids as sane as possible.

I think my WW is with me. I really do. And, if she is going to have an even bigger repsonse to me if I stop the AO BS, and she sees Im on board with the love and foregiveness the poop may taste less poopish someday.
Posted By: jessitaylor Re: Deception - 06/03/11 01:55 PM
Mike
That brought a smile to my face too, NG has an interesting way of describing his thoughts............
I think the important words here is that all us BS's are all choosing with OUR OWN VOLITION to work on our marriage, ugly and all.......
If we chose it for ourselves then we have to give it our best effort for US.......It is choice..........we could walk, sometimes I think it would be easier.........
But we continue to love the person we have always loved and that seems right for US...................
jessi
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 06/03/11 02:12 PM
[Linked Image from fardelsbear.com] Actually, I'd be bursting-my-buttons proud if your
FWW saw and validated my "bigger spoon" reference.
HUMOR is good, of course, but it was INSIGHT I was
reaching for!

Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/03/11 04:03 PM
NG-

She saw the spoon reference and got the point 100%. She said we are both mired in this poop. No just me. I told her yesterday I was exhibiting some pretty severe depression symptons from what I would guess they'd be and she got hysterical when I was thinking of going to a hospital. I told her Id give the AD the 4-6 wks the doc said it could take.

She has been awesome despite carrying a guilt I wish on nobody. And seeing me degrade to the emotional level Im living with now is scaring the hell out of her. But Im loving her in between bouts of fury and depression and she sees that.
Posted By: Kenmoore14217 Re: Deception - 06/03/11 04:51 PM
Hey Mike, just curious but have you thought about a polygraph?
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 06/03/11 05:01 PM
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
Your actions will eventually convince her to end her attempts at repairing the marriage. You know that.

This is what helps me from AO's. Knowing that I risk the potential of becoming exactly what she accused me of during the A. Self control.. retrain yourself.

Buy a punching bag. I did. When i felt it coming on I went and beat the bag until my knuckles were bloody.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/03/11 05:06 PM
No, not something Im worried about right now. Shes done everything Ive asked for so far regarding the disconnect. Im watching like a hawk her every move. If I felt for a second she was out looking for him or vice versa, id pounce. Not something im overly concerned about. I dont want more details about their past. I got all i need.

Moving on together is all she has said. And, she has the choice to go any way she wants.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 06/03/11 05:16 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
I dont want more details about their past. I got all i need.
hurray

Mike, this is a mile-marker! Write it down as progress!

Posted By: Hilsmon Re: Deception - 06/03/11 05:45 PM
Angry Outburst = Temporary Insanity. We say and do things we wouldn't normally do. Mike needs to SMILE smile
You are trying to hard to FIX this and make sense of it. I did the same things.
Before you can expect to move forward you have to quit looking in the rear view mirror. Easier said than done.
I will say again I see the distraught in your post, get some real meds and quit trying to cover a gunshot wound with a bandaid. Hospital? Do you mean a mental facility? If so I implore you to again see your MD.

Posted By: chickadee1 Re: Deception - 06/03/11 08:21 PM
"Before you can expect to move forward you have to quit looking in the rear view mirror. Easier said than done."

thank you for this!
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: Deception - 06/03/11 08:31 PM
@chickadee1 I am glad I could help in a small way smile @Mike I hope it helps you get through just TODAY.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/04/11 02:17 PM
Originally Posted by Hilsmonemoretime
Before you can expect to move forward you have to quit looking in the rear view mirror. Easier said than done.


But, sometimes, like this morning going to pickup bagels, the past starts to creep up on you like an 18 wheeler semi truck going 80 and you're doing 30. Took a walk after and cant say Im doing much better but I have to proceed with the day.

Didnt AO. She walked with me and in calm tones I told what was bothering me and of course it was stuff she feels she went over already and I said not really, because question get speicfic. I told her I reallly dont want the answers as much as I dont want to ask. I already told her and all of you I got alll I need to know, but sometimes I need more.

They were together a lot of this period of time. It male jealousy at is finest. I told her that this morning. How do I get past it? Another guy having my wife what could be a tremendous amounth of times.?

I can get passed the nice meals and things he got her, they were a means to end for him, it the end Im freaked over.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/04/11 02:23 PM
On a good note, Im down 7.5 pounds. Saw the doc yesterday to talk about meds. Im 3 days into the AD so I have some time before the "magic" happens. We had a nice time with a lot people last night and drank heavily. First time I think my wife has seen me somewhat normal happy. So drinking is something I may need to step up? Kidding.

Today is another day.
Posted By: Jim_Flint Re: Deception - 06/04/11 05:41 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
Originally Posted by Hilsmonemoretime
Before you can expect to move forward you have to quit looking in the rear view mirror. Easier said than done.

They were together a lot of this period of time. It male jealousy at is finest. I told her that this morning. How do I get past it? Another guy having my wife what could be a tremendous amounth of times.?

I can get passed the nice meals and things he got her, they were a means to end for him, it the end Im freaked over.

Hello MikeSmile,

Just wanted to let you know I think you're doing fine especially for so early in your recovery...

One thing I do think you may want to consider is this:

If you are serious about having a GREAT marriage that you both enjoy and feel happy and satisfied in you MUST draw a SEPARATION from the affair tainted M and your recovery or you will BOTH go crazy from the insecurity you will both feel...

Hers from WHEN is he going to stop the DJ's and AO's and is it even POSSIBLE to have a good marriage after what I've done???

YOU with how do I stop looking at my FWW as DAMAGED GOODS I GOT STUCK WITH and will I EVER be able to forgive her and stop obsessing about the affair???

Dr.Harley makes a point that there should be a TIME OF SEPARATION such as a vacation after separating from the affair partner to allow for withdrawal AND to draw a CLEAR LINE betwen the affair and recovery of the M.

I would suggest that you spend some quiet time figuring out WHAT questions you need answered and WHY you want them answered.

After they have been answered to your satisfaction, with polygraph confirmation if you feel the need, I REALLY would schedule a short vacation and do things that you both enjoy keeping in mind Dr.Harley's recomendations of taking a vacation.

Meeting the EN's of both partners particularly those involving pleasurable physical excercise (we loved float tripping with friends!) and SF perhaps in some new(ahem!)settings that don't remind you constantly of the affair is so important to getting into the new habits of meeting EN's...

Which is HOW you get past the affair garbage.

By forming new habits of relating to each other.

When Mrs.Flint started fixing "mouth watering home cooked meals" I didn't resent the "slime covered garbage" she had thrown at my ex-brother to keep him interested nearly as much.

It's important to note that Mrs.Flint started "wanting to cook" when we went on vacation and we BOTH were distracted enough from the affair that the love we had for each other came to the surface instead of constantly being covered with talking and thinking about the affair.

The end result that you mentioned will be that your M is better than before the A and that what YOU get from your W will be better than any of the "slime covered garbage" that your W threw at the OM.

God bless.

Jim

Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/05/11 12:33 AM
My FWW has no withdrawal. She was being used by this guy and although no gun was to her head and she could leave anytime, she didnt. Cant explain better than that. There was affection and maybe love for the first number of years, then complacency and normalcy set in and she felt stuck. The bottom line and it sucks is she had an easy job where she brought in a few bucks each week from this guy. He keep her close and this kept her from looking for a real job with a future. So, this job where she was making a few hundred dollars/wk required her to service the OM. So even when she claims to have hated the pressure he put on her action, she stuck around. And I believe she really rated him glomming on her to sex and she said no on occasion, but never quit.

When this ended last month, there was a palpable relief from her. Big f-ing deal. She's happy its over and wants to move on. I stuck on 7 years of her giving her body to another man. Regardless of her being or not its over. Im stuck. Its about the sex. There, I said it. I cant get passed the sex.

Im on AD. My hands are shaking. And I cant focus on anything. This completely blindsided me and Im suppose forgive and find out emotional needs I didnt give her that the OM did. I know one thing he gave her that I didnt. Thats for sure.

Im ready to pack my stuff. Sorry to all helped but its too much, too much to deal with.
Posted By: Kenmoore14217 Re: Deception - 06/05/11 12:45 AM
it's a mother load of deceit to deal with Mike, no apology required. Take care of you!!
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/05/11 12:59 AM
Just cant get passed her ability to bring this guy in to my house for years while doing what they were doing during the week. And, she didnt confess, they got caught. Big difference. She'd be back there on Monday if not for the Mothers Day Massacre.

And the amount of times she gave herself to him makes me sick. Physically sick. I know guys, horny guys. And this woman was alone with a horny guy for many, many days. And seemingly was not giving up too much of a fight.

My kids are going to be devastated. They are going to hate her. She has ruin the lives of many people. And, in truth, I do think she'll reach out to OM eventually and guess what?, he dump his wife in minutes, this POS has 2 y.o. and he was playing with fire for seven years too, but he'll leave them in a heartbeat. So, if I do go, I get the benefit of knowing with likelihood, the OM may be a part of my kids life. How crazy is that?
Posted By: chickadee1 Re: Deception - 06/05/11 01:00 AM
mike

you are doing great. its just a bad moment- it will pass as they have done before. judt hang in there you are doing great. dont get yourself in to a crazy state that you will have to apologize for tommorrow. breathe...

Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/05/11 01:05 AM
chick;

There has been no AOs. This has been a controlled thing. Just reality. Im a mental mess. Im having the shakes take over my body. She sees them and is freaking out too.

She knows what the main issue is with me and its a jealously thing. Bottom line. I understand it just cant fight it.

Thanks for the words and maybe youre right. Where is the C. Voyager? He always manages to get me off the cliff.

And Hils. Id even take NeverGuessed who tends to chew me apart. HELPPP. This is taking a bad turn.
Posted By: chickadee1 Re: Deception - 06/05/11 01:10 AM
i am in the same place.... when my h saw me have a panic attack 2 wk ago it was bad he almost to me to er, but having him see me in the state i was helped him understand what i was dealing with, you also can ask for help from your W, you are allowed to ask for help.

i think they are all out to dinner with each other tonight.. that would be very funny to see.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/05/11 01:14 AM
She is ready to eo anything. She saw my shaking earlier and gave me an awesome foot rub. She's trying. I tell her its less about her than its about me. Trying to put a huge pile of doo doo in the back of my brain. I feel like, to some degree, if I do this, Im rewarding her. She treated me like garbage and because I now know about it, Im supposed to say lets just start over. Too hard to do that.
Posted By: chickadee1 Re: Deception - 06/05/11 01:22 AM
"I feel like, to some degree, if I do this, Im rewarding her. She treated me like garbage and because I now know about it, Im supposed to say lets just start over."

i totally understand your feelings, feel the same way at times. but you are doing this bc YOU love her, and you will reap the rewards of a good marrige.

put the crazys out of your head and thank her for the foot rub.., i know you can make yourself nuts with the toughts.

i also understand that "its all about you"- same situation- but as i was told- you have to give yourself a chance to grieve

breathe
Posted By: pokerface Re: Deception - 06/05/11 01:58 AM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
Im on AD. My hands are shaking. And I cant focus on anything. This completely blindsided me and Im suppose forgive and find out emotional needs I didnt give her that the OM did. I know one thing he gave her that I didnt. Thats for sure.

Im ready to pack my stuff. Sorry to all helped but its too much, too much to deal with.

Mike, You can pack your bags and leave but the anger and the shakes will follow you.

One of the problems with avoiding AO is that sometimes we end up letting the anger build inside. It has to get out in some form whether shaking, outburst, anxiety, etc.

Find a way to let yourself FEEL the anger and get it out. Yell, throw rocks at trees, beat the punching bag, anything.

... wish I knew what to say. You have shown incredible strength and courage.
Posted By: Powerbane Re: Deception - 06/05/11 02:27 AM
Mike - hang in there man!

It's a crappy thing to know and your wife just wanting to move on like it all never happneed. I know you don't think there's any consequences for her or POSOM. Have faith Mike. There will be.

Your wife is just now seeing the physical and mental anguish that she caused hit you like a brick wall. As for that POSOM - I'd be talking to the lawyers about sexual harassment in a big way. Don't worry mate - someone will clean his clock sooner than later. Let's not let you being the one to do it - at least not physically. Those kids need a daddy at home - not in jail.

I think your wife needs you too.

Go out for a run. Go do something to get away by yourself for an hour. Do something physical like strenuous exercise. That will help your body get rid of the fight or flight chemicals you're producing. Your mind will clear. This crap will drop away. Refocus to your children and regaining a healthy marriage.

I'm praying hard for you mate. Real hard.

Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 06/05/11 05:47 AM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
chick;

There has been no AOs. This has been a controlled thing. Just reality. Im a mental mess. Im having the shakes take over my body. She sees them and is freaking out too.

She knows what the main issue is with me and its a jealously thing. Bottom line. I understand it just cant fight it.

Thanks for the words and maybe youre right. Where is the C. Voyager? He always manages to get me off the cliff.

And Hils. Id even take NeverGuessed who tends to chew me apart. HELPPP. This is taking a bad turn.

Mike,

Sorry bro, We had D's graduation Friday from high school (still trying to recover from that), family visiting from out of town and I had to finish Sunday School.

The shakes go away. They do. I thought I had permanent nerve damage or something from the A. It lasted a good year. Had em waking and sleeping. I think my body was in shock. Yours probably is too. You mentioned you lost weight. Normal from the stress. I lost over 20lbs and I was average build. HANG IN THERE.

Do you let your wife read these at all? Maybe just print off my response to you here...

What helped calm me (this is stress related as near as I can tell)was actually my wife holding me. I would have to just give in when I didn't want it and let her do it. See, she is the love of your life and you are injured. Let her hold you and help heal you. As your heart heals, your body will follow. Part of recovery is opening yourself up to her and letting her help you heal. You know we are praying for you, right?

CV

Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/05/11 07:56 AM
3;50am, 4 hours sleep fairly normal. My body is convulsing. Popping AD and anxiety pills. All I think about is her being with him. And, the absolute disregard for me and my kids she shown for all these years. The ruin she done my life and many others around us (parents, friends) is huge and will get bigger if I go. But, it might be better for my kids not to see their father as a mental patient.

I promised not to AO so I do go crazy in my car alone to let loose but there is no satisfaction in that. I do go for runs and try to work it out. I so screwed. She ruined this perfect little family that I so loved.

I do let her read these posts, all of them as they more often than not are keeping me focused on the prize. And she needs to hear what you are saying as it helps her cope. Shes a big fan, just not a big writer.

CV-I told her just yesterday, the holding we do is the only real time I stop thinking about the A for a minute. We cant hold all day, though. I asked. We are more affectiate in public something we never were. Its almost too little too late. I wish I didnt feel this way.

Now I cry about how this is going to affect my babies (9 and 11 year olds). They hurt already, they see their dad in bad shape, now I have to potential for the triple threat of destroying this family. Its a no win thing right now.

I will say this, I gave myself 90 days after dday to figure this out. NOt yet 30 days so I guess Im not giving it the due time it deserves and promised myself I would. Right now, tho, I want out.
Posted By: armymama Re: Deception - 06/05/11 11:28 AM
Mike,

I had many mental and physical symptoms as well. The shakes, crying, the nightmares, the not knowing whether I had eaten or not all get better with time.

At some point a few weeks after D-day in 2008, I read something on here about recovery taking two years. It seemed an eternity away. But I decided that I would fully commit to working on the marriage for two years. We are now D-day plus three years last April and doing much better. It was so awkward at first. We were working on the MB sub-courses and affection felt contrived and our conversation was mostly about the weather and the dog. At some point, I started to laugh again. And the triggers became bearable annoyances instead of things that set me into a tailspin.

Everything you are feeling is normal. I am sorry for your pain. Time makes it better. I wish there were something faster.

AM
Posted By: Cypress Re: Deception - 06/05/11 01:02 PM
Mike,

Taking this one hour at a time will help you at this early stage. Plan your day to stay busy. Follow through with the plan.

Include some exercise.

Cypress
Posted By: reading Re: Deception - 06/05/11 03:58 PM
Wife to MikeSmile....hi.
I don't think its a good idea for you to read the thread cause Mike is working through stuff that is tough and I don't suppose you are in a place to read it. The revelation is too new.

I wish you both the best on recovering from the long time horror.

Mike.....of course you are in a very bad place emotionally. It is horrible. It takes time to work through. Stages to go through. You need this thread for your own personal space. I know you want to share with your wife but you are not in the best place as a couple to do so on this thread.

Mike, learn the principles of Marriage Builders to help with your emotions. Have your wife read the books and maybe start her own thread (though I bet you would be too tempted to read it which isn't good at this juncture).

Mike, I think you ought to have money put aside to use the Marriage Builders coaching center. Read the books first, at least be fairly confident you understand the concepts and consider calling the center and getting a coach to help you through this.

Affairs suck. Long time affairs suck. They all do.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 06/05/11 04:30 PM
I will say this, I gave myself 90 days after dday to figure this out. Not yet 30 days so I guess Im not giving it the due time it deserves and promised myself I would. Right now, tho, I want out.

No, you don't, thankfully. How do I know that?

Now I cry about how this is going to affect my babies (9 and 11 year olds). They hurt already, they see their dad in bad shape, now I have to potential for the triple threat of destroying this family. Its a no win thing right now.

You don't want to leave, because you know the consequences. You want the pain to stop, and you think leaving is the only way to bring that about.

I used this logic with another poster awhile back: Forget the fact that you were ever married to your FWW. Instead, you just met her, this week, with her two beautiful children, and in talking to her she was honest enough to tell you she had made terrible errors in HER prior marriage, realized her mistakes, and would certainly use the knowledge she had (painfully) gained to create a better marriage with any man who would commit to her going forward.

Now, do you continue to pursue a relationship with her, to share your life with her and help her raise those two babies?

Your problem is focused on the fact that you are hurting, that it's not so much that she was flawed, but that she did it to you. I know how much it hurts. I felt the same way. I had to separate what my FWW did to me in the past from what I wanted us to have together in the future.

In my deepest consciousness, then, I "wrote off" my first marriage, of thirty-three years. I then reproposed (seriously, on my knees, on a beach) to that same woman, and remarried her some weeks later. Our original wedding anniversary, 01 May, I know longer pay heed to; our re-wedding anniversary, 13 August, is the one I acknowledge.

The point to all this was that I realized that I could NEVER forget the betrayal, and its existence would do to me what your situation is doing to you. I "boxed" the betrayal in a way that it no longer has any effect on me. "Oh, yeah, my 'first' wife cheated on me, but I love my 'second' wife all the more."
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/05/11 04:37 PM
NG-

Thanks.

And, as usual on point.

Mike
Posted By: Cypress Re: Deception - 06/05/11 04:56 PM
Excellent NG!

Mike,

This is just a thought. Please disregard if it seems silly:

Could you do a small ceremony with friends to mark the end of the 'old marriage'. Planning the ceremony with WW could be cathartic. And in the future when you are ready , propose again like NG did?

Cypress.
Posted By: Jim_Flint Re: Deception - 06/05/11 05:38 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
She was being used by this guy and although no gun was to her head and she could leave anytime, she didnt.

Hey MikeSmile,

I know it sucks...

It did for me too.

But...

She did stick around for a reason...

and it wasn't the sex anymore in your case than it was in mine.

It was him meeting her EN's to feel wanted, needed and desired.

The money meant nothing more than it would have if it would have been flowers, gifts or concert tickets he was giving.

You are making a distinction because it was cash rather than gifts and it doesn't matter which it was.

She felt needed by him and now she misses THAT...

Not the sex.

She's glad that part is done and you are right...

there is no withdrawal from the sex...

BUT there is BIG TIME withdrawal from the attention and having her EN's met by him...

Which you are NOT DOING at the present time.

So, yes, she IS in withdrawal from the affair.

You missed the point I was making that you have got to draw a line between the affair and recovery with a break for you both away from the affair talk.

Dr.Harley recommends it in ALL cases whether or not they feel as though there is any withdrawal from the OP.

I REALLY think you two could both use a break away for a while to mark the beginning of your NEW marriage together and the death of the old.

Good luck my friend and God bless.

Jim



Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/05/11 06:15 PM
Yes. I think I did miss that point, Jim. And your absolutely right. And I am missing the boat here. Thanks, man. I will book that trip and soon. I think you are right.

I understand exactly now.

I am doing much better this afternoon that the prior 2. And I clarity on what I need to do.

Ups and downs of this continue to be murder on me.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 06/05/11 06:31 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
Mike,

3;50am, 4 hours sleep fairly normal. My body is convulsing. Popping AD and anxiety pills. All I think about is her being with him. And, the absolute disregard for me and my kids she shown for all these years. The ruin she done my life and many others around us (parents, friends) is huge and will get bigger if I go. But, it might be better for my kids not to see their father as a mental patient.

This really is a temporary state. You are in the worst of it. Have you ever done anything difficult? When I was n the Marine Corps we used to go to the gas chamber. I remember my first time going through it. Had no idea what to expect. I remember the drill instructors making us sing the Marine Corps hymn in a closed room filled with CS gas. PANIC!!! I remember on guy tried to bolt and run. right about the end of the first stanza. The DI walked over to me and said, you see that guy? He's freaking out and he's through the worst of it. He just doesn't know it yet. Something clicked in my head... I can endure it. It is painful, it is scary, but it is endurable.

Mike, The WORST of it is over. The affair is over. You can survive it. The "CS" fog will clear for both of you and you will be able to breathe soon. Can you endure yet a little longer? The dangerous part is over (the affair), and what you are dealing with is the realization of what you were just unwittingly put through. The air is clearer and it is safe to breathe.



I promised not to AO so I do go crazy in my car alone to let loose but there is no satisfaction in that. I do go for runs and try to work it out. I so screwed. She ruined this perfect little family that I so loved.

I do let her read these posts, all of them as they more often than not are keeping me focused on the prize. And she needs to hear what you are saying as it helps her cope. Shes a big fan, just not a big writer.


It's a good start. You write well. Do you journal? Either or you? It's a learned skill. I suggest you start. Write totally open and honest and if you are comfortable, let each other read them. This helped me. Writing love letters helped keep me focused on the prize. MRs Mike... Write your husband love letters. Tell him honestly how you feel. He may respond poorly at first (I did), but we are somewhat like babies after DDay. We need constant reassurance and care. We need to be retaught that the wayward loves us. This takes time and patience from you.

Mike, You are not crazy. All of us BS's went through this. I slept about an hour a night for the first 2 weeks and almost landed myself in the hospital. I was on Dr. ordered bedrest for a week (two actually, but I didn't listen)



CV-I told her just yesterday, the holding we do is the only real time I stop thinking about the A for a minute. We cant hold all day, though. I asked. We are more affectiate in public something we never were. Its almost too little too late. I wish I didnt feel this way.

Feelings are weird things... The change and morph. Constantly. Living by feeling is what got WW in trouble. Living by principles we hold dear is what carries us through. The rollercoaster DOES have and end to it. it's not indefinite. Eventually it will slow down, you will catch your breath and relax.


Now I cry about how this is going to affect my babies (9 and 11 year olds). They hurt already, they see their dad in bad shape, now I have to potential for the triple threat of destroying this family. Its a no win thing right now.


You know why? because your eyes are off the prize. You have things beginning to take shape and you mentioned them. The seeds of a wonderful marriage are beginning to take hold. You don't have to destroy the family. You can choose to stay and work adn wait for the rollercoaster to stop. You can look at how your wife is holding you and being affectionate and is obeying and see these as progress... Good progress. Too little too late was my mantra for almost three years and then I recovered from rectal-cranial inversion and pulled my head out.

We are fallen creatures living in a fallen world. None of us will ever love the other perfectly this side of glory. BUT we can love each other better and better. We can learn and grow together. My wife's 2 A's made me grow. They made her grow. I would have preferred to do it any other way, but I didn't get the choice. I did get an opportunity though and I am taking it. AND I am giving her the opportunity, One last one, to grow next to me.Staying and making it work is really win/win... it just doesn't feel that way right now.




I will say this, I gave myself 90 days after dday to figure this out. NOt yet 30 days so I guess Im not giving it the due time it deserves and promised myself I would. Right now, tho, I want out.

3 months is a start. 6 months is the 1st turning point though. Wanting out is a natural reaction to the attack on your marriage. I told W that 1000x. When I had mroe sleep and was lucid, I was able to see better that what i really wanted was her love, admiration, devotion and support. I bet you do too.

Don't run, bro... Fight! When you are tired... rest. then fight some more.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 06/05/11 06:34 PM
Originally Posted by Cypress
Excellent NG!

Mike,

This is just a thought. Please disregard if it seems silly:

Could you do a small ceremony with friends to mark the end of the 'old marriage'. Planning the ceremony with WW could be cathartic. And in the future when you are ready , propose again like NG did?

Cypress.

We renewed our vows after I think a year... It was good.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 06/06/11 02:17 AM
Mike? You hanging in there?

Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/06/11 11:17 AM
Yes. Doing good. After a dismal couple of days, yesterday afternoon was great no bad thoughts, no shakes (which are freaking my wife out), and just a good time with the fam. I did have some of the shakes this morning which are strictly from the nerve rattling Ive taken, Im sure. Took my anxiety and AD meds and that seem to kill them.

My "new" wife is amazing. Thats all I'll say. Amazing.
Posted By: jessitaylor Re: Deception - 06/06/11 11:22 AM
Mike,

amazing is a great word at this point, take care of yourself, don't push yourself......
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: Deception - 06/06/11 12:27 PM
Mike yeah yeah yeah. I'm really rooting for you man. Its a tough road but the final rewards may even make you look back and say wow I never knew it could be this wonderful.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/06/11 01:10 PM
Hils:

Thats just what I wrote her in a text. That things are better now than ever and I will continue to get myself in shape mentally and we'll be great as a couple and a family. She doesnt know it but Im taking her away for a long weekend in a few weeks where will be get that alone time which the Dr. recommends. Again, she cannot tell me enough how glad this thing is over and thanks God for it coming out. She was in a real bad place and its taking all my strength NOT to find him and rearrange his face. But, as she's quick to say it took 2 to tango and she as fault. And, as we here are always quick to point out, the past passed.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 06/06/11 01:50 PM
MS, great attitude you're projecting. Build on it. Keep the "AO Monster" caged up. There are time when some of us have to be bigger and better than we might have imagined we were.

Hang it there, pal. Every day forward is a day farther from the past. (Hey! Another MB t-shirt slogan?)
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/06/11 03:30 PM
Just booked a b&b for us in 2 weeks. She doesnt know it. Healing is full stride. Todays another good day.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 06/06/11 03:59 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
Just booked a b&b for us in 2 weeks. She doesnt know it. Healing is full stride. Todays another good day.
hurray
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/06/11 05:23 PM
Had to tell her so she can get kid coverage for the w/e. Finally some tears of happiness. For both of us.
Posted By: Jim_Flint Re: Deception - 06/06/11 05:32 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
Had to tell her so she can get kid coverage for the w/e. Finally some tears of happiness. For both of us.

Great job Mike!!! Feels good doesn't it? Proud of you, buddy. smile

Jim
Posted By: Just Learning Re: Deception - 06/06/11 05:36 PM
Mike,

Hang in there you are doing well. You are not off of the coaster yet, but you are doing well.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 06/06/11 05:45 PM
Ditto from me! Kudos!
Posted By: helpfordad Re: Deception - 06/06/11 05:57 PM
Good job, Mike. Keep up the good work. And, as I learned, and continue to learn from the vets here:

Patience.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/06/11 07:21 PM
I hear you. Patience. Still get the hurt all over, a little less so, but that hurt when i think about things. But, she has been so good and she's so hurt that I feel like we both are starting over and Im OK with that. There are things I havent felt in a lot of years when she's not here (and none of them are 'I hope she's not with OM'). I miss her. I miss talking with her. I miss just being near her and we were ALWAYS near each other, just not emotionally, I guess. Crazy business these A's can be.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 06/06/11 07:45 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
. Crazy business these A's can be.

Yes indeed! Who would have thought that after 20 years together you feel like you are dating again?? You are doing well mike. You are doing well. Better than i did at your stage.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/06/11 08:04 PM
The only thing i can think of is my FWW has had no withdrawal symptoms and really is thankful that its over. She only misses the baby she helped raise and who our kids miss terribly. The OM was a controlling deviant in her mind and use her inability and fear to leave the scene for many years. She used to have headaches and backaches and other things that used to nag her daily that she doesnt anymore. Now, its only me with my (fewer) sporatic ball breaking sessions she has to deal with and right now Im beginning to think less of them together and more of her and I together.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 06/06/11 08:10 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
The only thing i can think of is my FWW has had no withdrawal symptoms and really is thankful that its over. She only misses the baby she helped raise and who our kids miss terribly. The OM was a controlling deviant in her mind and use her inability and fear to leave the scene for many years. She used to have headaches and backaches and other things that used to nag her daily that she doesnt anymore. Now, its only me with my (fewer) sporatic ball breaking sessions she has to deal with and right now Im beginning to think less of them together and more of her and I together.

yes, there is a sense where they are trapped in their actions (or think and feel they are). My wife had no withdrawals either. She was relieved to not live the lie anymore. Give the woman a back massage for goodness sake. Go to bath and bodyworks, buy the eucalyptus massage oil (green bottle) and kick the kids out of the house for 2 hours (or put em to bed early).

Heh... Do you have netflix? We have it streaming on the TV. put the kids to bed. get the massage oil, and stream one of the instructional massage videos. We do it on occasion. Puts her right to sleep or.... well... let's just say it is relaxing. wink
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 06/06/11 08:40 PM
Im beginning to think less of them together and more of her and I together.

She used to have headaches and backaches and other things that used to nag her daily that she doesnt anymore.

....and all of this since 20 May ?

Now, its only me with my (fewer) sporatic ball breaking sessions she has to deal with

Hang with us two more weeks and I'll bet your sporadic AO's will be a distant memory as well.

See, MS, the incredible value of this site is that it is based on principles and processes. Given the right....orientation....of a situation, the folks here can help a BS implement a personal program to pull a broken marriage together, in most cases. (God, do I wish I had known of this site immediately!)

Keep up the good work, MS.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/06/11 09:39 PM
YES. Since 5/8 actually. She has had headache issues for years and the pain in her upper back for last couple of years. She swears its like the pains she carried everyday have been lifted.

She has done lots of things to keep OM from looking for love. She'd invite friends over to the house to babysit with her, she'd get there, get the kids dressed immediately and head to the park or mall, or she just say she's had enough of him. But, eventually, she'd give into his pressure. Its clear to me and her, she didnt want this guy but had no way of ending it. It obviously was good in ways she didnt want to ruin. Im coming to terms with it.

And, all of you are my heros and have saved me. I not naive enough (hard to believe if you've ready my story at this point) to think I (we're) out of the woods. But, I do think Ive turned a corner. Ive learned the zero value in ripping her head off and the beauty of forgiving and moving on. And, you guys have helped me to this epiphany.
Posted By: Surfer88 Re: Deception - 06/06/11 10:03 PM
Hi Mike,

I logged in to respond to another and saw your latest. I did respond to you awhile back and pretty much pi$$ed you off that day (sorry, but I was worried)! NG, MB and Susie (and others) scooped you up that day...yea!

I join others in that I am really happy for you!

Good luck to you!
Posted By: chickadee1 Re: Deception - 06/07/11 12:20 AM
dance2 good job mike! keep it going!

cant quote but found the icons! day by day!
Posted By: LuvsDavid Re: Deception - 06/07/11 01:03 AM
Quote
cant quote but found the icons

It is 11 boxes over from the smiles you found. It looks like a big "mark

just make sure you put what you want to quote in the box. or highlight it and quote from the bottom of the post.

Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/07/11 12:05 PM
Originally Posted by Surfer88
I logged in to respond to another and saw your latest. I did respond to you awhile back and pretty much pi$$ed you off that day (sorry, but I was worried)! NG, MB and Susie (and others) scooped you up that day...yea!

I was young and naive when you posted and I got annoyed at lot of what all of you were saying. I wanted to hear what I wanted to hear and thats not the way to heal. The books have been instrumental and more importantly, you guys who have been on the front lines of this type of thing have been tremendous in my growth and its been only like 2 weeks since I started the blog.

Im almost ready to go onto others' blogs to offer some insight, but my first journey out there got me scared. There is a lot of trouble out there. I think I will hold off until I have complete clarity before I offer suggestions to others struggle with our problem.

I did go over the 39 pages of my posts and, man, did I change my tune over the time. Id like to thank a lot of people who I will continue to rely on: Just Learning, Celtic V., Never Guessed, hils, martial bliss, susieq, and there are lots more who's blunt upfrontness was appreciated. As a non-paying positions, you take it very seriously and personally. Its like a mission from God.

Someone said this is a marathon, not a sprint. So dont for a minute think Im not needing continue kicks in the butt every so often.

Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 06/07/11 12:22 PM
As a non-paying positions, you take it very seriously and personally.

Can't speak for everyone, but in my case you're wrong: Mine is a VERY well-paid position.
  • I was paid up-front in support I received from then-veterans when I first got here.
  • I receive payments every day in the form of watching folks dig out of the pits they arrive her in. (Can you "dig out" of a pit? Whatever!)
Seriously, I'm overpaid! (And the IRS gets NOTHING!)
Posted By: Gamma Re: Deception - 06/07/11 01:05 PM
Mike,

As a non-paying positions, you take it very seriously and personally.

Have to go along with the previous poster, when I stumbled onto MB my W was in a weak EA with an 85 year old dude, and even she thought, who admits to nothing, she would have been in a full blown affair given another year. So yes I'm overpaid as well, plus the joy of not seeing my money go to some lawyer.

God Bless
Gamma
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 06/07/11 01:20 PM
Quote
So dont for a minute think Im not needing continue kicks in the butt every so often.
I have a tool I keep handy for occasions such as those:
[Linked Image from ecx.images-amazon.com]
Seriously, you're doing great, Mike - keep going! smile
Posted By: Just Learning Re: Deception - 06/07/11 07:36 PM
Mike,

You said
Quote
Now, its only me with my (fewer) sporatic ball breaking sessions she has to deal with
rotflmao

OK! Got to ask is someone confused here? MrRollieEyes

I guess what I am trying to say is that "ball breaking" sessions with a woman is not going to be very effective. Nooo

See why we are telling you to have patience and back off?

Ok, I apologize I just could not resist.
Really Mike you are doing better than you think.

JL
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 06/07/11 07:59 PM
Originally Posted by Just Learning
Mike,

You said
Quote
Now, its only me with my (fewer) sporatic ball breaking sessions she has to deal with
rotflmao

OK! Got to ask is someone confused here? MrRollieEyes

I guess what I am trying to say is that "ball breaking" sessions with a woman is not going to be very effective. Nooo

See why we are telling you to have patience and back off?

Ok, I apologize I just could not resist.
Really Mike you are doing better than you think.

JL

Too funny!

And yes, JL is right. You are doing great!
Posted By: karmasrose Re: Deception - 06/07/11 08:00 PM
rotflmao

Thanks, I really needed that laugh.

/tj
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/07/11 08:19 PM
I love the woman who Im living with now. She focused on my kids, building a career hopelessly stalled years ago, giving me all I need emotionally, handling the pressure and humiliation she suffered in front of our extended family and our friends who know, and understands the severe damage inflicted on me and kids and lets me know in said and unsaid ways she'll be forever earning my trust and forgiveness. Sent her text today: I forgive you. Must have been the 100th time I told her that.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/07/11 08:36 PM
This is a woman who saw her life flash in front of her eyes in Mother's Day. I can be a road block towards her destination of making us better by AO'ing and being a major PIA. Keep grilling about needless details and making her uncomfortable. Im doing better on that front. Maybe the ADs are having some effect? Too early? But Im regaining some control I need to have.

The bottom line is no one feels worse than she does about what she let happen to herself for that long. After it got bad with him she continued to be his. She is having difficulty coming to terms with that, how she lacked any self confidence and had the fear to get out when it was pressure from him making do things. I read about on another blog by a FWW and its odd thing to imagine unless you're in it.

She is deathly afraid our girl who knows too much about what happened will let herself get into that situation. Not so much about getting EN met by another, that can happen to anyone, but 1) not discussing issues when they arise with your husband and 2) being under the influence of someone when theres no real basis to the relationship. And several other A related issues we are desperate for her to not know about.

We are both scared about any lingering affect on our kids which, thank God, nothing yet seems to have manifested. Our open affection and, frankly, me staying put, have a lot to do with that.

Posted By: chickadee1 Re: Deception - 06/08/11 12:38 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
I love the woman who Im living with now.
hurray

hope you are doing well today.

Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/08/11 12:56 PM
Doing good today, a bit anxious, but doing good. Had a nice date night last night with my wife and we are doing great.
Posted By: jessitaylor Re: Deception - 06/08/11 01:03 PM
Don't let anything get in the way of that wonderful thought today, enjoy that new memory..........
Keep busy...........
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/08/11 11:33 PM
I know the program calls for getting all the information about the A one needs in a marathon session and then speak no more of it. Well my session took one month. Today is the 1 month anniversary of dday.

I asked the question that I wanted to know and got the answer which I believe to be the truth as best as she knows and was pretty much on target with what I imagined. Taking in plus or minuses of what may be her foggy reality, Im very OK with what I heard.

In fact I have a certain peace about it. I dont kid you.

I had a lousy day and this question always seems to be at the center of my thoughts. She was upfront, matter of fact, didnt shy away and just wanted to tell me the truth and I promised not another question about the A.

My marathon session was one month.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 06/09/11 01:56 AM
.....and you managed to keep caged the AO-Monster, I take it!

hurray
Posted By: chickadee1 Re: Deception - 06/09/11 02:36 AM
ill take it too.

good job mike
mine took 3 mos. so you are doing great

no AO! please its a step back, not worth it.... kiss
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/09/11 06:08 AM
No AO. She has known this question has been in my head since day 1 and kind of gave me the answer weeks back but never satisfied me with more difinitive info. She took a few minutes to jog her memory, reviewed what was a 5-6-7 yr relationship and gave me what she felt was an somewhat accurate assessment times they were intimate.

It was not pleasant to hear, but I needed from her mouth. Hers was a EA and she said didnt turn into a porn star for him. But, there was plenty of contact suffice to say.

She told me she will spend eternity evening out acct with me. Shes done a pretty good job in the last month.

Im getting close to the next phaze of this thing. Just had to have an answer for that questin to move on.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/09/11 06:12 AM
AOs are so in the past. I was calm. She has reached a level of confidence in speaking about the past years so it was sort of easy talking about it.

It was matter of fact, not a interogation.

Again, I think she felt more relief on her part.

The A, in my mind, is in the past. NO further questions, your honor.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 06/09/11 11:17 AM
Great that you're in a good place, MS.

But (why is there ALWAYS a "but")......you must remember you are still on the roller-coaster. Do not unbuckle your safety-belt yet, okay?

So celebrate today dance2 and keep working the process.
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: Deception - 06/09/11 01:08 PM
Mike all of this sounds great man, It seems your and my road have met. My FWW has started to shape back into the Wife of my dreams. Our relationship is so much better because of POJA, PORH and all I and now she is learning from Dr Harleys books. EN's, boundaries and so much more that allows us to come to resolutions with both of our interests in mind.
It will struggle some still but keep at it and enjoy that new bride.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/10/11 12:20 AM
My wife was speaking with a female friend who is going thru a rough time in her marriage (this friend doesnt know nor will ever know about FWW A). Her husband is getting ready to leave and he told me so about 2 weeks ago. My FWW was commiserating with her and in trying to made her feel better my FWW said the she and I have had problems and we were working them out. Now, I had problems with my marriage for years mostly dealing with affection and intimacy. And my FWW has known about these issues for the entire length of her A. My FWW, however, had many ENs that I wasnt meeting, but instead of telling me she got them met elsewhere. Kinda took offense to the description "we had problems and are working them out". We are only working them out because she got caught. Didnt say anything, kept these thoughts in my head, but it was glossing over some serious things I took offense to . Whatever, she is a tough spot, my FWW, becuase we are trying to maintain many relationships who will never know of the A and it being such a big part of our recetn past it must be tough avoiding any reference to it. Im nitpicking, I know.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 06/10/11 02:30 AM
I used to have as my epilogue:

If you always tell the truth, you never have to work to keep your stories straight!

You and your FWW have chosen to recover your marriage, without a widespread revelation to family and friends of the entire story. Doing so and keeping the "lid" on what went on before will present challenges. This will probably not be the last time that one of you cadges on an answer in a way that seems "unfair" to the other. Concentrate on being truthful with each other first. Discuss ways to approach delicate situations beforehand, so you both can be comfortable in what is revealed.
Posted By: Northwood8900 Re: Deception - 06/10/11 02:36 AM
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
Discuss ways to approach delicate situations beforehand, so you both can be comfortable in what is revealed.

...and, since it bothered you, you should talk about that conversation (O&H) with your wife so that you don't start to harbor any resentment. No DJ or AO's, of course smile but it sounds like you're already getting a good handle on that lately.
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: Deception - 06/10/11 12:43 PM
Yes Mike, I get it. Bring this up to your W. Dont hide feelings as talking about them are your obligation under the PORH. Exposure shouldn't be limited to whom your comfortable telling. The truth is the truth and it is what it is.
Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/10/11 01:26 PM
We are talking a lot still about us. Im living right now with trust and fear issues that are completely foreign to me. They are almost making me unable to function my daily life. And, I trust she has NO interest in OM in any way. I do believe she despises him. I really do. But, since she has been able to shock me and surprise me with this and it was so out of the character of the girl I used to know, I dont know what she is capable of doing. I told her this. And she said she understands my feeling and cannot blame me for having them and is committed to making me feel safe everyday. I get text msgs and she is with female friends when shes not with me or home or at work. She is working overtime to move us passed this. I know it. But the brain is a tougher customer to convince.

I will say this: I love her more today than ever and THAT I tell her all the time. She is now the woman I missed for a lot of years. I told her this too.
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: Deception - 06/10/11 01:46 PM
Been there Bro. Your only in the early stages. As it gets better the fear issues will subside. As far as the "trust" issue. It will get better and there will be a degree of trust. But because of all of this you have changed and that wont change. Thats good and bad. Good because what you hold dearest you will hold closer. Bad because it opened your eyes to a world you didnt expect. Life has changed Mike. Trust isnt something you or any of us should ever truly give our spouse. Openness and honesty is the replacement. Transparency is the trust. Making sure EN's get met is the insurance and the compensation.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 06/10/11 03:01 PM
Originally Posted by MikeSmile
We are talking a lot still about us. Im living right now with trust and fear issues that are completely foreign to me. They are almost making me unable to function my daily life. And, I trust she has NO interest in OM in any way. I do believe she despises him. I really do. But, since she has been able to shock me and surprise me with this and it was so out of the character of the girl I used to know, I dont know what she is capable of doing. I told her this. And she said she understands my feeling and cannot blame me for having them and is committed to making me feel safe everyday. I get text msgs and she is with female friends when shes not with me or home or at work. She is working overtime to move us passed this. I know it. But the brain is a tougher customer to convince.

I will say this: I love her more today than ever and THAT I tell her all the time. She is now the woman I missed for a lot of years. I told her this too.

Mike,

Fear is rooted in control. we fear what we have no control over. When we accept that, it is easier to deal with and overcome our fears.

We cannot control our spouses, even though our natural inclination after an affair is to try to. It's rooted in fear of having the same thing happen to us again and we want to control it/them. As we begin to really trust the FWS, we begin to no longer fear. Now, those of us who are BS' have a reasonable fear of a repeat offense, but we cannot control the spouse. in order to recover, we have to begin giving them opportunity to rebuild certain trusts while realizing that certain other trusts will never be given again (and probably should have never been there to begin with.

Make sense?

CV

Posted By: MikeSmile Re: Deception - 06/10/11 09:15 PM
The only fear to fear is fear itself. Thanks for the posts Hils and CV, poetic in its message. And whats glaring in both and I just read them to my wife, is the fact that the trust I gave should never have been given way back when. Anyway, have a good weekend everyone, no AOs from this kid. Just moving the coaster forward.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 06/12/11 02:36 PM
Hi everyone. I guess the system was down for a long time yesterday and it made me re-register under a new name. So be it.

Trying so hard to keep my fears in check and under O&H policy I had to tell her about it. Again, no AO, but I spoke to her last night about fears I have and a lot it stems deals with the unknowns I have. For instance, was there ever "I love yous" between her and OM? On one hand, if not, then what they had was one type of relationship, if they were on a I love basis then it was another. She refers to what they had in the beginning as a relationship. Mostly between the hrs of 10am-2pm and a smattering of dates at night throughout the years. I asked her about how she felt when OM and OMW went thru several rounds of in vitro with surrogates until the 3rd time when it finally took. My FWW said it got her a little upset that while she was in this "relationship" he was still going thru building a family with his wife. Then she realize she already had a family and it made her less mad, but nonetheless, to finally hear some detail, not dirty details, but emotional detail from my FWW made me feel good.

I think we agreed together this OM used my wife for a lot of years during what she thought was a "relationship" and especially the latter years when there was less of one. She told me when she's alone and thinks about it she if almost driven to tears that she let this go on for so long for so little return emotionally and monetarily as I discussed she stuck around him as an employee for many years and really has little to show for it.

I told her last night about my fear that I spend most of my day thinking about her and him and theres little I can do about it. She agrees it still new and as you all have said, T&P will take its course and things will get less painful. It already has. But, I so curious about the early years of their thing and not the dirty details, but just what was it like for her. Her feelings? I firmly believe she berated me to him and Id like to know more about that. I told her the magnitude of her A in terms of length cannot just disappear from my mind after 5 weeks of intense affection and other nice things shes done. My biggest fears is I cannot put this behind me and Ill harbor that resentment that is spoken about in the book for life. And if I cant get it under control, I may not leave her now, but I'll be living a lie and will not live that way for ever.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 06/12/11 02:51 PM
She just read this last post, as I let her read them all, and she got scared about the last line about me potentially leaving. I had to inform her that Im working diligently to remove from my memory the worst betrayal a human being can endure and many lesser humans would have said sayanara on 5/8. Obviously she knows all this and is part of this process. And, again, has been wonderful. And, as I have said, all of this stuff is in in head and with all of your help, its getting much better.

I didnt want to scare her with that last line as I already told her in a AO weeks back that I just may stick around to see my youngest off to college and Im out. So me leaving down the road cannot be too foreign a concept.

She wont read this post, but between you and me, my goal is to love her and forgive her and make this marriage better than it was pre-A while trying to lessen the damage of the A. And, if it becomes something I cant resolve in my head, I will always have the option to make other moves. Right now, my kids are number one and their happiness is proportionate to me be here and happy. So let the ADs kick in for Gods sake and let me be happy, a good Dad, and the best husband for as long as possible.
Posted By: MrsWondering Re: Deception - 06/12/11 03:50 PM
Mike,

I'm gonna copy & paste a post that I made to someone else here a week or so ago, because I think it's fitting...

Originally Posted by MrsWondering
I too recommend that you guys do the online program. The amount of accountability you will get from that is incredible!

About resentment and forgiveness -- Just compensation is what will help -- Have you read the article here about that?

There used to be a great post here that I thought outlined just compensation with a great analogy -- unfortunately that post was lost in the crash of 2009 here. I'll try to summarize it for you:

Imagine that you had a car that you LOVED -- It was an older car, but you didn't care -- you still adored it. We'll say your car was an old model Honda.

A friend asks if she can borrow it for a day, and you agree. You friend ends up wrecking your car that day. You are devastated.

Your friend goes out and finds the exact same make and model Honda and gives you that as a replacement. But that is not good enough! Because even though the replacement is the same make and model as your old one, it's still not YOUR car. It's not your baby. It's just not the same.

Now, imagine instead your friend goes out and buys you a fully loaded, top-of-the-line, shiny, brand-spankin-new BMW -- it has all the bells and whistles and is beautiful.

Well, you might not feel quite as bad about losing the old car -- sure, there would still be things about it that you'd miss, but the new car is REALLY awesome, and does make you very happy when you drive it.

Might be easier not to resent the loss as much then, yes? -- It might be easier to forgive a friend willing to go the extra mile to compensate you, right?

So THAT is what must happen with your marriage -- It must be shiny and new and be MILES above what the old marriage was -- If not well...you know...

That is what working the online program can do for your marriage -- and that is why I highly recommend it. Mr. W and I went to the Weekend program back in May 2007 -- [the online program replaced the weekend program] -- Anyway, I can't recommend it enough. It's awesome.

Mike, if you want to make sure your marriage survives and resentment doesn't kill it, PLEASE, PLEASE do the online program. That is HOW. If you work the program, IT WORKS. It IS the fastest horse which, of course, makes it the safest bet. I can't think of a reason not to do that, can you?

Mrs. W
Posted By: MrsWondering Re: Deception - 06/12/11 03:59 PM
Link~~~> Marriage Builders Online Program

Originally Posted by DrHarley
For those who complete my program of marital recovery, 100% find the experience to be more than helpful -- it solves their marital problems. But just like in dieting, the successful outcome depends entirely on motivation. Only those who are not motivated enough to complete the program fail.

Mrs. W
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 06/12/11 04:15 PM
Thank you. We will go thru the program at first chance. Coming from someone in your shoes, MrsW, my FWW is excited to do it.

We will report along the way.

mss
Posted By: MrsWondering Re: Deception - 06/12/11 05:03 PM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
Thank you. We will go thru the program at first chance. Coming from someone in your shoes, MrsW, my FWW is excited to do it.

We will report along the way.

mss

I'm glad to hear it, Mike! I hope that "first chance" means VERY SOON. Make it top priority -- your marriage and family are worth it!

You know there is a post on the recovery forum right now that I think your FWW should read as a "cautionary tale". The poster's name is "SassySue" -- 2.5 years after the affair she is still laying blame at the feet of her husband for her choices! banghead

I read that post and thanked God that I arrived at the MB forums 10 days post contact. Reading and posting here has taught me so much and has helped our marriage immeasurably. Dr. Harley says it is very common [read: the rule, rather than the exception] for women who have affairs to continue to blame their husbands -- THIS forum and the MB Program prevented me from remaining at that very damaging place. Taking responsibility for ALL of your choices is VERY empowering.

I wish your FWW would post. I'd welcome her and help her in any way possible. smile

Mrs. W
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 06/12/11 06:43 PM
MrsW, my FWW doesnt blame me nearly as much as she takes it herself. She understand fully that she wronged me way worse than the ENs that I evidently in hindsight, never gave her. So, she in no way blames me. Her tale is one of getting caught up in something that was good then not so good, but then realizing or concluding that it was better than any alternative. She despises that person who was her. Ive said this many times, she is doing remarkable in meeting her just compensation to me to date, I swear. Everything I could dream of in all phases of our life. All the while holding on to a deep shame, disgust, embarassment, hurt, and genuine remorse while continuing on her with her life. I find her remarkable, truly. Yet, my complexes are within my head and thats where Im fighting the fight.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Deception - 06/12/11 06:55 PM
Mike... Buddy, brother... You gotta get the breaks on your cranial diarrhea. Your emotions will run all over the place, and believe it or not, not every thought and feeling needs to be broadcast to your W, or the forum. You gotta slow down dude , or you are going to gas out.

Breathe, focus, and redirect the emotional crazy, ok?
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 06/12/11 07:25 PM
Just took an anxiety pill. Trying to find the brakes.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Deception - 06/12/11 07:34 PM
Have you consulted your doc about antidepressants?

Also, a journal may help.

You can also redirect your energy into doing nice things for your wife, household projects, or working out.

Remember, emotions live in the moment with no thought. They do not prompt action with regard for ten minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, or years beyond THIS moment.

Posted By: MrsWondering Re: Deception - 06/12/11 08:33 PM
Okay Mike, good deal -- I'd still like to see your wife post here. Has anyone posted "Joseph's Letter" for you, and if so, has your wife read it?

How much time are you spending together each week meeting the 4 intimate emotional needs? [Intimate conversation, affection, recreational companionship & sexual fulfillment] It should be AT LEAST 20 hours/week and there should be blocks of time [3-4 hours] when you are meeting these needs - not just 15 minutes here and there. Make sure you are getting babysitters and going OUT together.

Mrs. W
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 06/12/11 11:02 PM
We are meeting those IENs quite a bit and then some. This is the BEST outcome of this bad situation. I have never felt closer to her. We've booked a weekend away alone, we've walked around the neighborhood alone, we speak to each in without raising voices, we are doing the steps.

We are new couple and I like us. I do.

Not to pour salt on it, but I have a gaping wound that still needs closing and thats going take more time than I hoped it would.

Id like to read Joseph's letter if someone has it, please.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 06/12/11 11:06 PM
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Have you consulted your doc about antidepressants?

Yes, on a AD for about 2 weeks.

Not enought working out.

Its the friggin emotions that take over and put into a tear and I dont want to AO at her so i come and vent. What can I tell you, Im having a rough go of it lately. I say one thing and my head says something else and I lose it.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Deception - 06/13/11 02:48 AM
Read your own sig, bro.

I remember early on that my entire psyche was fractured. I had like 9 distinct voices in my head arguing different things. Focus on your goal (recovery) and move toward that.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 06/13/11 04:01 AM
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Read your own sig, bro.

I remember early on that my entire psyche was fractured. I had like 9 distinct voices in my head arguing different things. Focus on your goal (recovery) and move toward that.

Ok, so that's normal? I thought I was the only one. The idea of a journal is awesome. It helps more than you know.
Posted By: MrsWondering Re: Deception - 06/13/11 05:03 AM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
Id like to read Joseph's letter if someone has it, please.

Here ya go, Mike:

Quote
Joseph's Letter.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"To Whomever,

"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.

"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is will affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.

"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."

(end of Joseph's Letter)

Mrs. W
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 06/13/11 01:13 PM
Nice letter. Read it to my wife this morning. She got it. Didnt have much to add to what was already said over the passed 5 weeks. Im beginning to think and I she said it today, what they have in hindsight wasnt a relationship, it was something else. If it were a relationship, I have to believe there would be memories and things she'd be able to tell me more about emotions she felt. This was odd situation in my opinion. Doesnt make it easier for me to understand and I still have my questions but she has nothing more to say about.

She again apologized and continued to regret putting both me and her thru this.

At a certain point I may have to live with what I know as being all Ill ever know.

Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Deception - 06/13/11 02:03 PM
Mike... buddy. I hope you aren't trying to educate her or straighten her out.

You'll shoot yourself in the foot!
Posted By: Jim_Flint Re: Deception - 06/13/11 02:39 PM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
Nice letter. Read it to my wife this morning. She got it. Didnt have much to add to what was already said over the passed 5 weeks. Im beginning to think and I she said it today, what they have in hindsight wasnt a relationship, it was something else. If it were a relationship, I have to believe there would be memories and things she'd be able to tell me more about emotions she felt. This was odd situation in my opinion. Doesnt make it easier for me to understand and I still have my questions but she has nothing more to say about.

She again apologized and continued to regret putting both me and her thru this.

At a certain point I may have to live with what I know as being all Ill ever know.

Hey Mike,

Just wanted to let you know that you're doing great and you are handling this in the right way by coming here with your questions and to vent...

One thing about your post reminded me of my own situation quite a bit...

I didn't understand the "arrangement" between the affair partners either because it didn't really fit with the idea of a "relationship" where they thought there was "love"...

That, of course, is because there was not even in the twisted, perverted sense that most affair partners think they are in "love".

Mrs.Flint was finally able to tell me what it was one day long after the affair between my ex-brother and her had ended...

and I think it is the case with your FWW and her affair partner also.

Mrs.Flint said they simply USED each other.

There was no deep feelings of attachement...

There was no "I've got to see you today or I'll just die."

There was no deep insight into each other's lives.

No soulmates.

No you brought out feelings I've never had...

They USED each other...

And DISCARDED each other...

Whenever one of them felt a need for an ego boost...

The other volunteered to meet it.

Like a soiled band-aid that they had used to cover up a wound in their souls that really needed surgery...

Not a band-aid.

I couldn't believe that that was all there was to answer my question as to why?

It couldn't be that simple.

But there is no deep, dark secret to it.

It's just selfishness and they used each other just like they used us...

It's just harder for us because we CHOOSE to stay and pick up the pieces...

When the affair partner bailed.

Because WE actually love them.

God bless.

Jim
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 06/13/11 02:45 PM
I dont think Im doing that. Im trying to get her to understand that the sheer length of the time spent with another man is crushing me mentally. And, she does know this. Im not so interested in the details of the sex and good times, I just wanted to learn more about her motivation and feelings about being what I see as her being another married man's side action. Its not very glamorous for her I know that. But, I given her every opportunity to express herself about, not the recent part of the A which I think I have a grasp on, but the early days of it. When she claims it to be a "relationship".

Im just about done asking as she is either buried it in her mind, or doesnt have much further to add from what I learned already.

Not reprimanding or talking down and definitely not AO,ing. Trying to make sense of a nonsensical thing.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Deception - 06/13/11 03:22 PM
Took me almost a full year to end grieving, and that's the toughest part when all of these things consume you.

It's referred to in the grieving process as "bargaining."

Just hold on, brother. The grief is the wildest part of the coaster.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 06/13/11 07:45 PM
My wife responed to Joseph's Letter with her own analogy of the "missing pieces of the puzzle" with respect to me needing the details. She says sometimes in life you get a puzzle and after putting together as best you can, you sometime have missing pieces to complete it. What do you do? You put the puzzle together as best as you can and you leave the missing parts to your own thoughts to complete the picture.

Time to move on from the A and focus on new puzzles and our life. Deep thoughts from Mrs. Mike.
Posted By: schtoop Re: Deception - 06/13/11 08:18 PM
Mike,

I'm not a veteran nor an expert, but you need some serious restraint.

Your WW seems to be responding and genuinely wanting to make your marriage the best it can be. Her efforts are the stuff that 99% of us betrayed spouses would have LOVED to see from their partners.

And you're on the verge of blowing it all.

You've hashed and rehashed all the details of the affair over and over, and your WW has been completely forthcoming. Knowing more won't help your emotions at this point.

You have bombarded her and bombarded her over and over again about how the length of the affair has left you with a gaping wound. She gets it at this point.

At some point she is going to weary of the fight if all her efforts are not helping you get over this. At some point she is going to start feeling resentment, like you are continually throwing it back in her face.

At this point you need to table all discussion of the affair. She know's it was her fault, she knows how deeply it hurt you, she knows how much work it will take to recover. Stop talking about it and just get busy.

Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 06/13/11 11:20 PM
Well taken. And, Im certainly been fearful of doing it, but Im near psychotic over this thing and I cant yell at her and cant do this and I cant do that so if shelfing the topic is the only f-ing option, then Im going have work harder at doing it. Wish I knew how.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 06/13/11 11:33 PM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
Well taken. And, Im certainly been fearful of doing it, but Im near psychotic over this thing and I cant yell at her and cant do this and I cant do that so if shelfing the topic is the only f-ing option, then Im going have work harder at doing it. Wish I knew how.

It is frigging hard. darn near impossible at your stage... near impossible, not impossible.

Get a recover notebook. just a 1 subject notebook. Don't use it for anything else but what i'm suggesting...

Write down your questions in there. every time one pops up... those neat little moleskins work nice too. You don't have to ask everything that pops in your mind at that exact moment. Write it down.

Wait an hour or so. Go back through them and see if she's already answered them.. once you stop obsessing on them. Writing them down helps you not to obsess.


Now.. how often are you asking questions still? A couple times a day? Let's say if you are asking 2x a day, see if you and your W can bear going one day with no q's and then ask the Q's you've written down.

in fact, leave some space under your Questions so she can answer them in writing. Let her write her answer for you in the book. That way when the same Q pops into your head you can look back and see she's answered it.

If that works and once you are used to waiting a day, see if you can go 2 days... then 4, etc... DON'T ask the same Q's over. Capice?

It worked well with us.

CV
Posted By: schtoop Re: Deception - 06/13/11 11:38 PM
Just do it!

I suspect that conversation is one of her top emotional needs. It is one of the big 4!

Talk about her day at work. Talk about your day at work. Talk about the trip you're going on in a couple of weeks. Talk about the LeBron James choke if you want. Put in a movie and cuddle. Reminince (sp?) about the early days of your marriage and dating, about trips you've been on. Cook a great dinner together. Enjoy the dinner and a bottle of wine. Go for a walk or bike ride.

Court her like you've only known her a few weeks and are totally smitten.

All of this will not only make her feel better, it will help you take your mind off of all this.

Just don't hammer her about the affair anymore.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 06/13/11 11:44 PM
The question that remains is unanswerable as far as she is concerned and that is the big WHY? And I have gotten as close to this answer as Im going to get. And an earlier post by Jim Flint really put my head in the right direction because it fits this relationship quite well. I let her read it and she only added that the OM developed an obsession of my wife and she was too weak and/or whatever psychobabble description for it to fight him off or simply say no. The both had an itch and they scratched it.

Im trying my best to use this as my "move forward" moment.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: Deception - 06/13/11 11:47 PM
Mike,

Actually, you are really at a very normal place given it has only been 5 weeks since you found all of this out. You said
Quote
So I'm really not sure at this point.... I feel more for my DH right now, then I have in years. We are moving forward in our lives again (which completely STOPPED for the entire 2 years me and OP were involved...). I wanted nothing to do with my DH or a future with him in that time. I wanted out, and nothing more. My feelings have changed so drastically, that I feel as though there is truly hope for our M! The more I read, and self assess, and learn..... the more I fall back into love with my DH and our life together.


You are falling in love with her because for the first time in a long time, if ever, the two of you are being honest and open with one another. Oddly, the time you should have had a lot of fear was when you two were NOT doing this. Then your marriage was in far more danger than it is now. The ignorance was making your feel safe. Now you are safer because you actually know what she is thinking now.

Please think about this. You will forgive her because...you two are getting closer, you two are finally becoming "one" as the Bible describes it. Let's look at a few things.

1. She and you had the opportunity to end this marriage. Her because she had the chance and you because of her affair, you have not. What does that tell you? It tells me that there is more to your marriage then either of you realize then and perhaps even now. Does this fact instill fear in you?

2. She chose YOU. She chose you to marry. She chose you to try and rebuild her marriage after her complete betrayal. Does she really need you to survive? Nope, she does not. Is this something you fear?

3. She has chosen the path of honesty. Does that instill fear?

4. You love her and want the marriage to continue on a more intimate basis. Does this instill fear? I'm betting it does because you are vulnerable and more for getting closer to her than you have been in years. Should you fear this? On the surface yes, but in reality, it means you know her better, will sense her moods and feelings better. The closer you get to her, the safer you will actually be.

5. You have survived one of the worst things that can happen to a person...being betrayed by one you love. You now know you can survive, is this something you should fear? I don't think so. You now know your strength.

Mike I could go on. Examine your fears and what is driving them and I think they will begin to diminish. You are safer if you are close to her and she is close to you. Let her get close to you and love you.

I will leave you with a diabolical thought. You want revenge? Well the very best revenge is to love your W, be a great husband and father, and a wonderful human being. Her betrayal will seem all the more loathsome to her if you do this.

Think about it.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 06/13/11 11:51 PM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
The question that remains is unanswerable as far as she is concerned and that is the big WHY?

Im trying my best to use this as my "move forward" moment.

The question every BS wants to know. You know what? I think the truth is, the wayward simply has lost their senses, and entered into ding-dong mode. My FWW looks back and goes "what the *(&*^% was I thinking?!?! That wasn't the me before the A and I cannot comprehend the sheer idiocy of my actions"...

I think that is at least partly the truth. The rest of the truth? They were selfish, inconsiderate and self-serving... Sometimes its as simple as that.

Complicated answers make us feel better, but they aren't always the truth. Kinda like marriage builders... So easy a caveman could do it, but DUH! Why didn't we do it before!!!
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 06/13/11 11:58 PM
Thanks All. Great stuff tonight. CV-My FWW has had the same realization several times "what the (*^%*((^^ was I thinking?" and the other things you added were so true. Loss of senses is a great way to look at it, too. JL-Thank you for the stuff on fears, I fear none of that stuff, so why do I have fears? Dunno. Im making my way folks.

Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 06/14/11 12:17 AM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
Im making my way folks.

NP! I was going to post the lyrics to Avril lavigne's making my way, but that'd surely get me moderated!
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: Deception - 06/14/11 03:20 AM
Originally Posted by celticvoyager
Get a recover notebook. just a 1 subject notebook. Don't use it for anything else but what i'm suggesting...

I did something similar. However, instead I used a USB key holding a Word document that contained all the questions and all the details of the A. When any new details of the A emerged, or whenever I had another question about the A, I'd update the document with the information. Then I'd put it away.

It's been years since I last looked at it. And one day, when I think our M is fully recovered, I'm going to throw it away.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Deception - 06/14/11 05:16 AM
Originally Posted by Jim_Flint
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
Nice letter. Read it to my wife this morning. She got it. Didnt have much to add to what was already said over the passed 5 weeks. Im beginning to think and I she said it today, what they have in hindsight wasnt a relationship, it was something else. If it were a relationship, I have to believe there would be memories and things she'd be able to tell me more about emotions she felt. This was odd situation in my opinion. Doesnt make it easier for me to understand and I still have my questions but she has nothing more to say about.

She again apologized and continued to regret putting both me and her thru this.

At a certain point I may have to live with what I know as being all Ill ever know.

Hey Mike,

Just wanted to let you know that you're doing great and you are handling this in the right way by coming here with your questions and to vent...

One thing about your post reminded me of my own situation quite a bit...

I didn't understand the "arrangement" between the affair partners either because it didn't really fit with the idea of a "relationship" where they thought there was "love"...

That, of course, is because there was not even in the twisted, perverted sense that most affair partners think they are in "love".

Mrs.Flint was finally able to tell me what it was one day long after the affair between my ex-brother and her had ended...

and I think it is the case with your FWW and her affair partner also.

Mrs.Flint said they simply USED each other.

There was no deep feelings of attachement...

There was no "I've got to see you today or I'll just die."

There was no deep insight into each other's lives.

No soulmates.

No you brought out feelings I've never had...

They USED each other...

And DISCARDED each other...

Whenever one of them felt a need for an ego boost...

The other volunteered to meet it.

Like a soiled band-aid that they had used to cover up a wound in their souls that really needed surgery...

Not a band-aid.

I couldn't believe that that was all there was to answer my question as to why?

It couldn't be that simple.

But there is no deep, dark secret to it.

It's just selfishness and they used each other just like they used us...

It's just harder for us because we CHOOSE to stay and pick up the pieces...

When the affair partner bailed.

Because WE actually love them.

God bless.

Jim

Ack.

I know these sentiments all too well...
Posted By: Just Learning Re: Deception - 06/14/11 07:08 AM
Mike,

You said
Quote
JL-Thank you for the stuff on fears, I fear none of that stuff, so why do I have fears?
And that is the point isn't it? As you address it, you will find the list of things you don't fear will grow.

Just thoughts,

JL
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 06/14/11 01:09 PM
Yes, JL, your post was amazing addressing individual fears cruising in and out of my head. And each one was dead on. Its one of the many posts Ive printed and carry with me when I start going down a bad path.
Posted By: faithful follower Re: Deception - 06/14/11 04:00 PM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
The question that remains is unanswerable as far as she is concerned and that is the big WHY? And I have gotten as close to this answer as Im going to get. And an earlier post by Jim Flint really put my head in the right direction because it fits this relationship quite well. I let her read it and she only added that the OM developed an obsession of my wife and she was too weak and/or whatever psychobabble description for it to fight him off or simply say no. The both had an itch and they scratched it.

Im trying my best to use this as my "move forward" moment.
I love the new name! Mike, it took me coming here to MB years after my A (and during my FWH's 2nd A) to work through the "why's". It could be much too soon for your WW to be honest enough with herself for that thorough of an inventory. Something I learned from my FWH, self examination is a process and the further out from the A you are the more horrified (and detached) you are from the person you were during the A. If it gives you any hope, my FWH is disgusted when he reads/hears about A's now. In his mind (thank God!), there is no justification good enough for doing this to your spouse and children.

I think you will get there with her, Mike. Give her time, she will get to the why's as she works through her shame, horror and self loathing. In the meantime, work on EP's with her instead to prevent this from happening again.There is a thread out there about EP's (extraordinary precautions) that I think was started by herpapabear.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: Deception - 06/14/11 06:50 PM
FWIW -

I asked my FWW "why OM, why him?"

Her answer: "Becasue he was there. It could've been anyone..."

She went on to say - "I realized very early on he had big shoes to fill, and would never be able to fill them."

And this one recently: "I know a part of you might hate me for what I did, but know you could triple that and that's how much I hate myself for what I did. I shamed myself...to you, my family, the OM, to another's family, etc. And I will be judged one day for it..."

There's not much i think i needed to say after that...excpt ' Love You'.

thanks.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 06/15/11 12:39 AM
I do spend a lot of time lately thinking about how degraded and low she must feel in general about herself. I get upset thinking about that. But she is trying her best to renew her life since dday and that degraded and low woman is not someone I see very much of. She has said and I believe it is she sometimes pulls over the car when shes alone and cries so our kids dont see it.

She cannot believe what she did and how stupid and selfish she was. Her words.

I just tell her I dont remember that woman and the one Im with now is a lot different. And I love this new woman a lot.
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 06/15/11 03:48 AM
My suggestion is to focus on the future, being happy that you have this oportunity to celibrate this recovery today, and in the future.

She sounds like she is repentant, and broken, count yourself blessed.

Now you will be there for her, to fill whatever needs she has, and in doing so will protect her and comfort her allways.

Its a new day, second, moment of your lives together, celibrate that as much as you can.

God bless
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 06/15/11 01:43 PM
CP-

The future is what she and I have. And we are happy about the future. We are spending less and less time on the past. Which is good. I work on filling her Love Bank and protecting her which is what I did a poor job of doing throughout.

I do cherish every minute with her. I like to comfort her and I need her to comfort me as still have my moments. She is a new person and I like this new person.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 06/15/11 04:43 PM
Yes, the meds may have kicked in.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Deception - 06/15/11 04:53 PM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
Yes, the meds may have kicked in.

They do take several weeks to reach levels that show improvement.

Remember to NOT abruptly stop any medications, as it will send you into a bad spiral.
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 06/16/11 07:06 AM
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
Yes, the meds may have kicked in.

They do take several weeks to reach levels that show improvement.

Remember to NOT abruptly stop any medications, as it will send you into a bad spiral.

Please listen to this advice he gave.

If you feel like at some point you dont feel them anymore, or decide you dont wnat to take them, please continue to and talk to a therapist about possibly weaning you off them.

I have seen people become violent and out of control when they just stopped taking them and it can be a real hazard to you. Its just how they work, please be careful

God Bless you Mike
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 06/16/11 12:04 PM
Im not stopping the meds. Lord knows my depression is still full on.

After a few good days, I hit a rough patch yesterday and last night. No AO. Just the eternal, internal battle in my head. Took a walk, tried to cool down but didnt work. Having my difficulties with certain things that Ive discussed before. Cant seem to do a thing about it at this point.

I told her the issue, she knows it, I didnt belabor the point, just told my head is not right and Im working on it. I have one of the more repentent, remorseful, hurt, and willing to do whatever to make things right FWW and I still just cant passed the intimacy part of her A.

And, THAT is my biggest fear. Not being able to move on from this one thing.

And you all have given me the whatfors on what I need to already, just cant seem to do it.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 06/16/11 01:19 PM
Not "what fors" from here, MSS, at least not for you.

Now stop reading!

Hit "Print" and hand the output to your spouse.

[Linked Image from blogs.law.harvard.edu]


Mrs MSS,
Your husband is going to go through patches like his recent one for an extended time. You have THE important role in helping him get through them.

1) DO NOT make it about your feelings - with crying, self-recriminations and depression on your part. That will cut him off from getting what he truly needs, if he can't come to you without creating a lot of drama when these episodes occur.
2) DO hold him and tell him that you're sorry you made the choices you did, that you love him very much, that nothing like what happened will ever happen again, and that you will do anything to help him heal.

We peer-counsellors at MB are counting on your assistance.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 06/16/11 01:24 PM
Thanks NG-

You are gifted in your directness.

Printed and will give it her at first chance.

MSS
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 06/16/11 01:43 PM
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed


1) DO NOT make it about your feelings - with crying, self-recriminations and depression on your part. That will cut him off from getting what he truly needs, if he can't come to you without creating a lot of drama when these episodes occur.


You know, NG, I read this a couple of times and it occurred to me that she does none of the crying, self-recriminations and shows little depression. In fact, when I tell her Im battling things in my head, she never asks what types of things? I understand it may be more of our lack of conversation that was part of our issues, but what Im getting from her is her is she doing all to bury this A and I congratulate her for being able to do so. She is not the biggest talker about her feelings which she is working on with a psychologist, but I think its her defense mechanism against my depression by not responding to me. Its a no-win situation for her. I know it.

And she really does follow your prescription that I sent her. Its my head spinning into every direction that is screwing with me. I tell her ALL the time, its not her, its me. (Co-opted from George Costanza.)

Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 06/16/11 06:08 PM
In fact, when I tell her Im battling things in my head, she never asks what types of things?

Actually, she should ask.

Given, "Doctor, I am suffering pains" which would be the more effective response?

a) "I'm sorry."
b) "Where does it hurt, and what activities bring the pains on?"

she doing all to bury this A

Again, "burying" the A, without effecting restoration of your psyche, is not the optimum path. AD's or not, you must be the one to decide on the recovery timetable, not her. The problem I have with pharmaceutical enhancements is that roses viewed under the influence of drugs display themselves as weeds as the drugs are weaned away. Your partner will be blindsided by things that affect and upset you in the future without the chemical aids, which today you and she considered addressed and closed, under the influence of the "happy pills."
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Deception - 06/16/11 06:15 PM
Onset - when did it start?

Location - um... your heart, or your head.

Duration - how long does it last/happen?

Characteristics - what are you feeling? Hurt, pain, anger?

Aggrevating factors - what makes it worse?

Relieving factors - what makes it better?

Treatment - what do we need to do to relieve this?


OLDCART pain assessment.

Your welcome.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 06/16/11 06:38 PM
Onset - when did it start? Yesterday morning, before she headed to work.

Location - um... your heart, or your head. Head.

Duration - how long does it last/happen? All day into the evening

Characteristics - what are you feeling? Hurt, pain, anger? Anger and jealousy.

Aggrevating factors - what makes it worse? My imagination.

Relieving factors - what makes it better? Im sometimes able to get passed the visions.

Treatment - what do we need to do to relieve this? Time.


What I need to do is understand how easily my FWW has moved on, she has discontinued her ADs last week and is focused on the future. Doesnt seem to have any lingering feelings except contempt for OM and is doing fine. I just picture him disrobing my wife and Im in a friggin downward jag for a while. I guess it will fade. Time.


Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 06/16/11 06:44 PM
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
In fact, when I tell her Im battling things in my head, she never asks what types of things?

Actually, she should ask.

Given, "Doctor, I am suffering pains" which would be the more effective response?

a) "I'm sorry."
b) "Where does it hurt, and what activities bring the pains on?"

She knows the hurt and it will open up A discussion in negative way. So Im choosing to hold it in and eat the poop sandwich I wrote about last week for the betterment of our marriage and our childrens sake. Somedays I hold in it better than others. Im confident I can move on successfully.
Posted By: chickadee1 Re: Deception - 06/16/11 08:12 PM
dr. hhh,

love your pain assessment!, would be able to fill it out he same as mike most times, i have a question...


Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
What I need to do is understand how easily my FWW has moved on, she has discontinued her ADs last week and is focused on the future. Doesnt seem to have any lingering feelings except contempt for OM and is doing fine. I just picture him disrobing my wife and Im in a friggin downward jag for a while. I guess it will fade. Time.


How is it that some WS move on so easily, or at least appear to?
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 06/16/11 08:42 PM
Originally Posted by chickadee1
How is it that some WS move on so easily, or at least appear to?

In a world where I live by theories, guesses, hopes, clever anecdotes, inspirational words, and other things like these, I like to think my FWW had little use for OM especially in the last number of years of their thing. Yes, its disappointing she decided to stick around be his for whatever her reasons were. But, that she can be free of it in her mind says 2 possible things, this was not a very deep relationship and it was based on non-sensical things AND/OR she was able to separate whatever ENs he provided and whatever physical needs she provided to him. Both, are some of the theories, guesses et al that I use to move my ever moving brain forward and hate her less for what she did. The choice Im making is to think about neither of these theories...just like Mrs Mike has been successful doing.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 06/16/11 10:15 PM
My thought? Waywards have this crazy idea: they figure since they weren't that emotionally involved in the A, it wasn't that big a deal. Which brings up a very common statement from waywards: "I never thought it would hurt you that much." HUH?

Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 06/16/11 10:16 PM
Well, martyrdom is good for some folks - ancient, long-dead heroes to their faith, who end up enshrined in stained-glass windows. I walked two years ago the walk you're taking now. It was a mistake for me.

Practical viewpoint: WW will NEVER again be so attentive to your needs to get everything flushed out.

Humanistic viewpoint: It will eventually prove to be more hurtful to her to bring any issues to the fore after years, than to "pull the bandage off" right now.

Lifetime viewpoint: In my case, two years have passed, and I'm just now realizing that the niggling few details I know that I do not have the full story on are delaying my moving forward. I have (partially) wasted two years.

I would urge you to "err" if necessary on the side of immediacy and your primacy, not expediency and accommodation.
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 06/16/11 11:07 PM
I would think Mike, that the response most looked for is a former wayward is anger, not pity, at themselves.

It will take time for those little "movies" in your mind to lose their power, and hopefully become something you will dismiss as the long gone past, thing is, it is not long gone yet.

But as NG has said, and I agree with, now is the time to both pull up your sleeves and fight for your marriage, identify the fantasys and falsehoods, commit with teeth bared to never be fooled again into complacency about how important and valuable this union is.

With that passion and the direction things seem to be going, I am sure you can make it.

Her not having to take ADs now and seeming to skate along on the outside, well, is it true or just an act? If when questioned she breaks down in fear and crys, its probably an act, not the crying, the skating.

Again bouncing off of NGs theory also, now is the time to push the challange of the marriage relationship and enrich it with all the passion you can. Get her excited with you for the good things to come, and rejoice that ypu have this chance, to fight. Know that whatever conflict that you both endure now as you surround your marriage and protect it with an Iron shield, will pay off as through the years you can maintain what you build now much easier than build it as you go along.

don't forget to celibrate also and have fun. Yes it is a reason to go nuts!!
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 06/16/11 11:18 PM
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
My thought? Waywards have this crazy idea: they figure since they weren't that emotionally involved in the A, it wasn't that big a deal. Which brings up a very common statement from waywards: "I never thought it would hurt you that much." HUH?
Yeah MB, it is just like they are in some form of high and not in touch with reality.

"Not a big deal?, are you a big deal? I allways thought you were!" At that point it becomes the choice they made, and thier ability to understand the gravity of it also. If they are moving back to recover or moving away where you have to cut ties, they need to understand it was a big deal to you.

Yeah and it hurts also, like a big deal would.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 06/17/11 12:06 AM
Well, I showed her the prior posts about needing to know and she asked me what I wanted to know. Without offending you good people, lets just say I wanted to know if she serviced him in his car. I was curious about sexual positions. She again thinks Im way too high in my estimate of number of encounters. Im almost done with the grilling and I feel pretty good. There was not AO, no emotional thing from her, just matter of factness. She again spoke about how incredibly stupid she feels and is humiliated beyonds words. Realizing how much damage she has done is killing her and I shouldnt be fooled by her desire to put this behind her in that she is deeply hurt and scared by my depression and that is worst thing she is dealing with. She said there any question I want she'll answer with all honesty. She understands my need to know and how much she emasculated me and promised me she do all she can to help me regain my manhood. I think Im pretty much done with this line of questioning. Im taking what she saying as truth and I dont believe she is lying. She has nothing to lose by lying at this point as I have committed to our marriage and our future. PS. What I learned tonight was pretty tame and sort of boring acutally. It turns out she really is not the most sexual being on the planet and apparently didnt cut loose with OM as much as my fantasies and falsehoods I was perpetuating in my head. Oh well. On to regaining my manhood and, man, do I have things to help in that respect? She said tonight anything goes. Im lucky to have her back.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 06/17/11 12:13 AM
Quote
Im lucky to have her back.
She's lucky you will HAVE her back.

Will your WW come here?
Posted By: chickadee1 Re: Deception - 06/17/11 02:38 AM
side note... or t/j thanks mb. ng and cp.....

dance2
good for you mike!
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 06/17/11 01:08 PM
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Will your WW come here?

No, she's not much into the writing. But, she does read posts I think she'll gain from. And, she's very grateful for the advice Ive gotten from this thread. Not all of it was in her favor but she understands the process we both have benefitted immensely from. I feel pretty lucky in some respects as I read other guys' threads and the examples from SAA that my FWW needed a way out of her A that she was unable to do on her own. Often, it appears, BS have a lot more issues involving confrontation, investigation, exposure, and winning back the WS. I was lucky to move quickly thru a lot of these issues and avoid others. As Celtic Voyager once said, "I won, she picked me". And, I picked her. Again, I got lucky and so did she. Have a great weekend everyone, barring any unforeseen emotional downtread, I hope be a reader of others threads only.

Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 06/17/11 01:59 PM
I asked her to come on here and say something and this is from MrsMike:

On Mother's Day, my husband found out by a sheer luck that I was involved with another man for many years. A man who with his family became very close to my family. It represents the dumbest, most selfish act a person can do their spouse and children. I have little excuse for it other than complacency and stupidity. Michael told me someone on the blog called it ding-dong thinking within a deep fog. This is the best way to describe. Whatever relatioinship I thought I had with the other guy, in hindsight wasnt much in substance. It makes me look I prostituted myself for years for some money and NOT having to go look for a real job with a future. I see that now clearly. I have begged for forgiveness and followed the plan he laid out from the book and from you guys. It has not been easy telling him about certain things but as we got further down the road, I realized the only way to win him back and recreate our life he needed to know what he needed to know, so I told him about the intimate stuff. I tried to be as honest I could be.

I hated the person I was and the other guy became a demanding nuisance in past couple of years but I never removed myself from the situation. I will suffer with the memory of putting my husband in a depression and possibly harming my kids.

As Mike has said, we are new couple and new family and I love us. We are working hard to recover from this and compensating him for what I did is something I will work forever on.

I sincerely thank you for helping him thru is down moments.

MrsMike
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Deception - 06/17/11 03:01 PM
Then she should know; she can find help, guidance, and safety here as well.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 06/20/11 10:32 PM
After a few decent days, mild downswings, but nothing to get bent out of shape over, I got the shakes again. My right arm is twitching like I was 2-3 weeks back. Cant explain it. Trying to hide it from her but she saw it today. Uncontrollable. Im not qualified to say it, but it could be part of the grief, depression, anxiety or combination thereof.

I really thought I was moving on from the hurt, not so fast.

Again, this sucks.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 06/20/11 11:24 PM
I really thought I was moving on from the hurt....

.....and you are, amigo. But seriously, most people who have counselled numerous folks through cases of infidelity recovery say the full process takes one-to-two years. You had D-Day on 08 May, and six weeks later you want complete accomodation? I LIKE your aggressive stance, MSS, but would ask you buffer that with a BIT more moderation.

The roller-coaster runs on its own schedule.

You might not like every twist, turn, and drop, but trying to get off is HIGHLY discouraged!
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 06/21/11 02:15 PM
Thanks NG. I keep forgetting this mess is a marathon and Im trying to make it a sprint. You end up getting tired out and the battle is still going on. I showed my wife my post, then yours and as much as Im trying to "grow a pair" and be strong in front of her, my depression sometimes overcomes me. She has the patience, but I dont. I want the 1-2 yrs you proscribe to happen now.
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: Deception - 06/21/11 02:45 PM
Mike your doing GREAT! Look how far you have come in 6 weeks and how it has ALREADY changed. Look only towards the future and try to not dwell. When you see it happening go on a run, grocery store trip...something.
Keep at it! smile
Posted By: Surfer88 Re: Deception - 06/22/11 12:19 AM
Stopping in to say "whoo hoo" for you and your wife, Mike! Trust NG and Hills that you have a long haul, but well worth it, right? I am happy for you!
Posted By: Surfer88 Re: Deception - 06/22/11 12:24 AM
P.S.

I know others have said it, but one day your W might want to come here. She'll get a warm welcome...2 x 4s, and a lot of help. All in good time. smile Warmest wishes to you and W.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 06/22/11 03:05 AM
MSS, two years for me is this Friday, 24 June. WE have something special planned. I also will finally post MY story here on MB that day, in something of a "closing ceremony" to mark the date.

The day after d-night, I would not have taken odds of 100 - 1 that I'd be here to type these words today. Keep looking at the horizon, friend, not the pebbles underfoot.

As I have urged other BH's here:

E - A - O - T - P
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 06/22/11 02:24 PM
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
E - A - O - T - P

??

Im looking forward to your story, you've been a rock for me here and Id like to know how you did/and are doing it.

Of the remarkable things about my FWW is her ability to shut off the past like a faucet. I attribute this to her unhappiness in this A especially in the last years. As my story goes, OM and his family would spend many Sundays at our house and the last years it was like pulling teeth with my wife to invite them over. And, as I think back she did an aweful amount of complaining about him and his family so obviously there wasnt something right over there. However, as my story goes and to her discredit, my FWW chose the easy way or perhaps felt trapped and didnt/couldnt get out.

I relay this now because as spouses Im learning more about protecting who were married to. They are imperfect and things can happen to even the best of us. It comes down to conversation. Learning more about what she is feeling and thinking and I did a remarkably poor job of this. I hate her for doing what she did to me and the kids, but I now know why even though she has not even said why. The "why" is unexplainable. The "why" is for me to understand and put in the back of my head forever. The "why" makes no sense back when the A started and definitely as it faded. Most importantly, the "why" could have been learned if I spent more time asking her (and if she spent more time telling) me her thoughts.

So, in closing, about my wife's ability to almost shut off this period in her life, I know how she's able to do it. One, its extremely humiliating to her and wearing it on her sleeve for life is something she'll have to live with and the less spoken about it, the better she is. And two, she made a mistake that almost ruined the lives of people she loves the most and the OM in retrospect was risk not worth taking as she has little to show for it other than a scarred memory of the last bunch of years. And, a husband battling depression and anxiety thru no fault of his and we both know the less said of the A, the faster Ill be able to pull myself out of the muck.

Some days the anger/pain is low and clarity is beautiful.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 06/22/11 02:48 PM
By the way, has anyone heard from Brother Celtic Voyager? Havent gotten any pearls of wisdom in weeks from CV. Hope all is well.
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 06/22/11 03:40 PM
E - A - O - T - P
Eye (A)) On The Prize //I dont remember zactly


Ok------ Eyes Ahead On The Prize
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Deception - 06/22/11 03:58 PM
Ache?

Agnostic?

Ape?

Analyze?

Abruptly?

pssst... it's "always"
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 06/22/11 04:18 PM
Or Allways


(I was just testing you) doh2 Yeah Yeah Thats it! I am so smart! I TEst people! TEEF Thats the ticket!.....(Morgan... Fairchild) weightlifter
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 06/22/11 05:58 PM
You ARE a fast study!

The "why" is unexplainable. The "why" is for me to understand and put in the back of my head forever. The "why" makes no sense back when the A started and definitely as it faded. Most importantly, the "why" could have been learned if I spent more time asking her (and if she spent more time telling) me her thoughts.

(Shhhhhhhh - the quiet little secret for most of us is that learning the "why" is what takes the two years we've talked about! Once we have that, we understand what the hell happened, and feel that we can better prevent it from recurring.)
Posted By: helpfordad Re: Deception - 06/22/11 06:08 PM
Great point, NG.
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: Deception - 06/23/11 03:09 PM
Neverguessed nailed it. The Why factor is resolved and thats a huge, huge hurdle. BRAVO! wink
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 06/24/11 03:28 AM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
By the way, has anyone heard from Brother Celtic Voyager? Havent gotten any pearls of wisdom in weeks from CV. Hope all is well.

Sorry brother, it has been a crazy week or so. We had friends from out of town stay with us (an extra 2 adults and 5 kids), and we hit our three year mark for our Dday. Oh... and there was that U2 concert in Baltimore that my beautiful wife took me to for a belated father's day... Sound like you are doing really well Mike. I'm still rooting for you two (not U2!)

CV
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 06/24/11 02:08 PM
Heading out on our weekend alone together in the next half hour. Sort of off to a lousy start because I had a mood last night and she didnt appreciate it. I apologized, popped some pills, and we went to bed with her annoyed at me. I said sorry again this morning and promised to love her this morning and forever. Wish us luck.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 06/24/11 02:47 PM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
Heading out on our weekend alone together in the next half hour. Sort of off to a lousy start because I had a mood last night and she didnt appreciate it. I apologized, popped some pills, and we went to bed with her annoyed at me. I said sorry again this morning and promised to love her this morning and forever. Wish us luck.

Hang in there! You are doing well!
Posted By: jessitaylor Re: Deception - 06/26/11 10:54 PM
darn rollercoaster, hope you two have a good time reconnecting......just enjoy the moments..
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 06/28/11 02:59 PM
The weekend away was great. We had great conversation. Got some emotion from her that i really have not seen too much of since dday.

I did have a breakthrough in my thought process and something I will be talking about when i join my wife on her next therapy session with her psychologist (I was invited). I learned early on in my marriage that my wife has a difficult time being happy. The reality is that this affliction stems from her mother who has no ability to enjoy just about anything life brings her. My mother in law has spent the last 50 years being jealous of her older sister who married better and always had the best of things in life. This personality trait is something my wife grew up with and unfortunately is very similar.

So, as I thought about it more on a long trip yesterday it became clear to me. My wife was unable to find happiness in our marriage and decided to look elsewhere for it. Once she did it, it seems, even then she wasnt happy. But, the catch is, rather than cutting loose that which she finds doesnt make her happy, she lets us stick around so she can have all her options. She could have cut me loose after the first time she was with OM, but kept me around for some reason. And after it started to be less good with OM, she kept him around even with his obsessive and demanding ways.

Rather than focus on the A which Ive gotten all the info I need, Im going to focus on her inability to find happiness and the choices she makes while searching for it. THERE, my friends, is the help my beautiful wife needs help.

We did have a great time this weekend. No fighting, no AOs, only honesty, we spoke of the A a little and how low it makes her feel, we had a rare moment tears, and i told her how much it means to see her be emotional about it.

I spoke to our friend who I mentioned earlier in the blog who has been a impartial asset to me and my wife about the happiness thing and she totally agreed. She went to college with my wife and knows all about it. I told her that I cannot/will not spend the rest of my life with someone who no ability to find happiness in what she has. Its a terrible way to live. Its not fair to me to have to live thinking no matter what I do (or unable to do) she cannot find the good things in it. And, to make matters worse, our 11 yo daughter is picking up this quality too.
Posted By: Jim_Flint Re: Deception - 06/28/11 04:10 PM

Hey Mike,

Sounds like things are going very well for you.

Wanted to mention something that was key for Mrs.Flint which your FWW may have in common with her.

Mrs.Flint had seemed unhappy for years before her A and when asked what was the matter she would reply that really nothing was wrong...

Because she didn't know what was wrong.

What was wrong was that she suffered from depression and would try to self medicate with everything from thrill seeking DANGEROUS horseback rides to the self gratifying DANGEROUS affair with my ex-brother.

The key in ALL of it was to somehow take herself away from the pain of the chronic depression of feeling not good enough and the not having a REASON for it.

Because there wasn't an EMOTIONAL reason for it...

BUT...

There was a PHYSICAL reason for it.

What we found was the FIRST anti-depressant didn't work and we didn't know that you have to keep TRYING different ones til you find the one that works with YOUR body...

There is a VERY good one that just came out called PRISTIQ.

It would be worth while for you to read up a little on depression and see if it fits what happened to your FWW and if so to schedule a dr. visit.

It made a HUGE difference for us.

God bless.

Jim

Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 06/28/11 04:41 PM
I will speak to her more about the AD. She took herself off the Zoloft a few weeks back by her own choice. But, you may be right, she may need to find something that meets her needs.

Here's a case in point about my wife's negativity/unhappiness and the fact that she doesnt even see it: we drove nearly 3 hrs back from our weekend away directly to a party at my cousin's house. Our kids were there and after a wonderful weekend where we had great meals, great alone time, great relaxation, wine tasting, and all the things a couple in our situation needed. My cousin, who knows nothing about the A, just knows we needed a getaway asked my wife how was your weekend? Instead of "it was fantastic because of x, y, or z," , my FWW answers "oh, it just took us 3 hours to get here". Nothing about sitting around the pool and drinking and enjoy children free time. Nothing about the casino where we had an awesome meal. Nothing about the how nice it was be together without children for a extended period.

The level of negativity Ive lived with is almost at the point where I dont want to be around it much longer. I told her the answer she gave my cousin is a major problem we have. And, I did not want to threaten her, but I did tell I wont put up with much longer. Fifteen years minus 5-6 or even 7 I spent sharing her with someone else is not convincing me enough its worth it.

When she has this lousy attitude that she shares with people I consider very positive, I start to lost some of the feelings Ive been having since dday. I felt sorry for her. I feel she was being used by OM and was stuck. (whether true or not)

I hate to say it, but I sometime feel she doesnt deserve me and my children.
Posted By: Jim_Flint Re: Deception - 06/28/11 04:57 PM

Mike,

I REALLY think that a talk with her dr. would be a great idea because it sounds A LOT like Mrs.Flint who found no JOY in ANYTHING before the depression was corrected.

A point to remember is that if it was a relationship problem with YOU alone she would have probably already left.

Mrs.Flint knew it wasn't that and that is why she didn't leave me.

It had NOTHING to do with me and she knew it.

It was a chronic soul destroying sadness that they wake up with and go to bed with EVERY day.

Please go with her to the dr. and let her describe her symptoms and see what he says BEFORE you make any decisions about the survivability of your M.

Before the depression was corrected I was not hopeful about our chances but the CHANGE in Mrs.Flint was dramatic after about three weeks of starting the meds.

She started to see JOY in things that she had never had before...

and HOPE for our M.

Give it a try, Mike.

Jim
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 06/29/11 12:51 PM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
I will speak to her more about the AD. She took herself off the Zoloft a few weeks back by her own choice. But, you may be right, she may need to find something that meets her needs.

Here's a case in point about my wife's negativity/unhappiness and the fact that she doesnt even see it: we drove nearly 3 hrs back from our weekend away directly to a party at my cousin's house. Our kids were there and after a wonderful weekend where we had great meals, great alone time, great relaxation, wine tasting, and all the things a couple in our situation needed. My cousin, who knows nothing about the A, just knows we needed a getaway asked my wife how was your weekend? Instead of "it was fantastic because of x, y, or z," , my FWW answers "oh, it just took us 3 hours to get here". Nothing about sitting around the pool and drinking and enjoy children free time. Nothing about the casino where we had an awesome meal. Nothing about the how nice it was be together without children for a extended period.

The level of negativity Ive lived with is almost at the point where I dont want to be around it much longer. I told her the answer she gave my cousin is a major problem we have. And, I did not want to threaten her, but I did tell I wont put up with much longer. Fifteen years minus 5-6 or even 7 I spent sharing her with someone else is not convincing me enough its worth it.

When she has this lousy attitude that she shares with people I consider very positive, I start to lost some of the feelings Ive been having since dday. I felt sorry for her. I feel she was being used by OM and was stuck. (whether true or not)

I hate to say it, but I sometime feel she doesnt deserve me and my children.

Mike,

Unfortunately, she has developed really bad habits. One of those habits that FWS have developed is minimizing they good times they have with their spouses. They do it because it was required to keep OP around during the A. Part of the baggage that accompanies A's. Look at it as an opportunity to talk and teach. She has to retrain herself on many points of life because she practiced bad habits for many many years. With love, patience and gentle words, you can teach her how to properly talk and respond without changing her base personality. remember that pearl that you said she was? It's covered in muck. This is a bit more muck you have to wipe away so she can be polished.

CV
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 06/29/11 03:17 PM
ITA with CV
Bad habits you guys need to address
Bad thought patterns she needs to see
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 06/29/11 05:11 PM
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
ITA with CV
Bad habits you guys need to address
Bad thought patterns she needs to see

I have my inlaws in town for a few days and I always thought the negativity/unhappiness stems from their upbringing of my wife. I just had a nice conversation with my mother in law about unhappiness and she, in a rare moment of openness, took responsibility on some level. She conceded spending a lot of her years jealous of others' ability to travel and have the things she couldnt. And possibly this rubbed off on her daughter.

However, she said and now I agree with her it has to do more with my wife's inability to open up about her feelings. This is something Ive noticed for our entire relationship.

We have something to focus on with her therapist now which is only about moving forward. Simply put, if my FWW had made any mention of her feelings at any point, the A could have been avoided or at the very least nipped in the bud.

And my FWW knows this is an issue. I will make it clear to her, her psychologist, and her mother that I cannot spend another 15 years guessing my FWW thoughts or making assumptions of happiness only to be humiliated by her again. Will not happen.

My cousin said something the other day and it really never dawned on me as Ive done most of what Ive done since dday to protect my kids and their happiness and that is: I DESERVE TO BE HAPPY TOO. And she knows nothing of the A. She simply asked my wife a question and inferred some strife from the lame answer my FWW gave her.

Anyway, I will work hard to get my FWW to see things in a brighter light because the opposite will not work for me.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 06/29/11 05:20 PM
Originally Posted by celticvoyager
[quote=MikeStillSmiling]She has to retrain herself on many points of life because she practiced bad habits for many many years. With love, patience and gentle words, you can teach her how to properly talk and respond without changing her base personality. remember that pearl that you said she was? It's covered in muck. This is a bit more muck you have to wipe away so she can be polished.

CV

Unfortunately, this personality trait is from birth. Going to take a lot of therapy to help her overcome an innate need to be unhappy and jealous of what you dont have. I have told her on many occasions about how sad it must be to have such negative thoughts all the time. I have told her all the time of some of the issues I have in our marriage and looking back, she has said very little. And I talking about things that were issue pre-A.

I want to polish off the pearl and I think she very much wants to be renewed with a new attitude. Its only because I love her that Im giving her this chance to make our life together better. I wont let myself or more importantly our kids be hurt by her inability to emote.
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 06/29/11 06:14 PM
What you are describing Mike is a very common malady in relatioships. All do not end up in affairs but they remain unhappy until they solve it

It was like that with me but WW for years was not happy or honest and did have numerous Houdini incidents

By all means attack this problem full on with therapy and yes. You do work on being happy right? That was your plan and she needs to get full on board with it also

It sucks when you allways feel you aren't doing enough and never get honest answers. She is responsible for being honest with herself. This is now a habit she can fix if she tries
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 06/29/11 06:21 PM
MSS, it would be fair to say that most of us here have supported you with compassion and understanding through this entire, troubling period in your life. We do so because we all, in some manner, have experienced what you have. However, we do so on this site, as opposed to others, because we choose to believe, and act on our belief, that the concept of a strong and flourishing marriage of two people starts with the vows at the ceremony, and continues forever. Remember? "For richer and for poorer, in sickness and in health"?

Your recent insight into what seems to be a moderately severe emotional/psychological "fault" in your wife's makeup is a positive thing, as it gives the pair of you something to attack. Your subsequent hints that (paraphrasing), "If this doesn't get fixed, I'm outta here!" flies in the face of why WE are here. I urge you to moderate your expression in that matter, as otherwise there will likely NOT be the support evidenced in the future that has been offered in the past.

In addition to which, I personally will follow the electron path from my computer to yours, and deliver the following: twoxfour I hope you know that this message was sent in friendship and brotherhood.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 06/29/11 07:06 PM
NG-Got your point. What I did was I evolved the conversation from my anger about her sleeping with another guy to a self reflection of how mad I am not making her more open to me with her feelings. So, as Ive told you all, the A and aspects thereof no longer rank high in my anger (thank you very much ADs), its my avoidance of my wife's emotional disconnect that is really bugging me. I understood before the A and before the marriage in fact she wasnt exactly an emotional open book. But, in light of the past several years where she decided to carry out an A in full view of me and our kids, I darn well deserve to start hearing her true thoughts and feelings.

Ive used the past 7 or 8 weeks to get her to start to open up with moderate success, at least in my opinion. The stuff I wanted to hear at first was embarassing to her as it pertained to the dirty details. But, as I learned about this stuff my interest migrated to feelings and thoughts about OM and the A. She spent an inordinate about of time with him not have something she could share with me. Am I wrong to want this?

Now, today, as Im truly moving through the process possibly too fast I working on figuring out what makes my FWW happy, if anything. This could be an offshoot of what I said above about her inability to speak about her emotions. And, Im simply relaying if I cannot get truth about her happiness than I feel (and I have told her because I, unlike her, do speak my feelings and you all know that I write them too) Im setting myself up for failure and I will not let that happen to me or my kids.

I've said many times, my choice to stay here with her and help her get the help she needs, but without learning what makes her tick and to my fault after 15 years I should know more than i do, Im learning nothing from being the fool who was duped by her A in the first place.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 06/29/11 07:36 PM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
Unfortunately, this personality trait is from birth. Going to take a lot of therapy to help her overcome an innate need to be unhappy and jealous of what you dont have. I have told her on many occasions about how sad it must be to have such negative thoughts all the time. I have told her all the time of some of the issues I have in our marriage and looking back, she has said very little. And I talking about things that were issue pre-A.

I want to polish off the pearl and I think she very much wants to be renewed with a new attitude. Its only because I love her that Im giving her this chance to make our life together better. I wont let myself or more importantly our kids be hurt by her inability to emote.

Mike,

It will be hard work. You guys are working at fixing things she has practiced her whole life. Patterns, thoughts ideas... A whole worldview, and probably not a consistent one at that...

Me and the Mrs. dealt with the same thing. SchoolBus suggested the book leadership and Self Deception. It's a good book. It will help her identify that point in her life where she began lying to herself. That's what happens with an outlook like that. They lie to themselves and say well, it may have been nice at the time, but it must have been a fluke, or it wasn't as nice as I remembered it... Or he loves me, but must just be blinded by love to see me as someone worth something. Lies the person tells themself because it is (in a sense) a safe place for them. Boundaries will keep her safe. Identifying the problem and changing the behavior will prevent those boundaries from slipping.

Cv
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: Deception - 06/29/11 07:55 PM
possibly too fast.Rule of time means so many things.
Your right to want to see her efforts but as a BH I also forget it takes "time". Im sorta impatient.
Emotional needs have a huge learning curve so does new behavior so it needs "time"
Mike you may come down to never getting what you need from her and then you have to make a decision. It can be done with both parties. Your expecting overnight success and I wish it upon you. But in reality its going to take allot of time and work. Your as much as a year away from comfortable.
During this time you can do the self improvements that you should have been doing for 15 years of time. My FWW last EA is not that old either. By god draw some lines in the sand (boundaries) and set some goals with time limits.
I dont think me or my FWW are truly happy at the moment but I dont hesitate to discuss with her my feelings either. Men are more problem solving as women are more emotion solving. Read how to be irresistible to your W in HNHN or MB appendix. Make a copy and look at it daily. Then be that. Make her a copy of Irresistible wife. Discuss it with her when you give it to her.
Has she read SAA yet or are you too reading it together?
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 06/29/11 08:49 PM
You know M why don't you guys make checklists and keep journals?
You each make your own lists of the things you want
Then youmake a goal list together

This might help in seeing progress and helping you with patience
You are going to go through stuff for awhile yet
She is going to realize things also for awhile yet

Is it possible to counsel with Dr H or the center?
Time and a plan you both get behindery will heal this but you will both have to have milestones sometimes to look back on

Hence the lists and journals. On top of the EN lists and UA time

You can do this mike and guide her out of the woods also but it seems you will need a very specific plan once you identify it and you might need. the right kind of counsel to set up that plan

It's over my head but I know it can be done. Where there's a will
Theres a way
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 06/30/11 02:18 AM
Originally Posted by celticvoyager
Mike,

It will be hard work. You guys are working at fixing things she has practiced her whole life. Patterns, thoughts ideas... A whole worldview, and probably not a consistent one at that... .

This where you become the lead man and make a whole new world for you both. From what I can tell she is easily swayed and has bad thought habits, and now you can step in and build what you both want, with you in the lead, gently but firmly.

The book CV suggested sounds like just the ticket too. I think I remember you saying that work had somewhat consumed you before. You can change all of this, she is willing to learn, study with her and tell her when you will do it. I have a feeling she will respond.

It will still take time for the mental movies to go away, and for her to find the right anti D for her. Coming off those can be strange for people, so you will have to let any medication level out.

Do you guys work out? Run? Do cardio? Excersize is very healthy for your brain also because it releases nessesary chemicals that work as anti depressants.

Your in charge now, the past is gone. Feelings follow action, now that those actions that drew you apart and ripped you off all those years are finished, it time for a new life. Lead her into it.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 06/30/11 01:32 PM
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
You know M why don't you guys make checklists and keep journals?
You each make your own lists of the things you want
Then youmake a goal list together

This might help in seeing progress and helping you with patience
You are going to go through stuff for awhile yet
She is going to realize things also for awhile yet

Is it possible to counsel with Dr H or the center?
Time and a plan you both get behindery will heal this but you will both have to have milestones sometimes to look back on

Hence the lists and journals. On top of the EN lists and UA time

You can do this mike and guide her out of the woods also but it seems you will need a very specific plan once you identify it and you might need. the right kind of counsel to set up that plan

It's over my head but I know it can be done. Where there's a will
Theres a way

Journals and milestones... Two most important things in healing... You can look back at the journals and see your progress... It may take weeks, months or a few years, but with hard work you can look back and see where you were and where you are headed. Not only do they help in that regard, it helps you see if you are on track with your plan.

Milestones are certainly important. Specially at this stage. Set your own goals for healing. be realistic... Like, say... "I am going to work this week at not focusing on the mental movies". Do this for a few weeks (say, a month) and see if you've reached a little milestone there.

Now the important one for the marriage is setting them together... Set milestones with your W. Work towards a goal...

For instance.. Her mom had a lucid moment and admitted to being a complainer and dissatisfied with things like travelling. Use it. Talk about how that affected your W's thinking and ways you can change that thinking... Work on it for X amount of time. Be prepared to talk and work hard at it initially with her. You may have to carry the load the first month or three. Helping her refocus her attitude until it becomes more natural. Then work at her taking responsibility for it a bit more at a time. Remember when you learned to drive? You didn't just jump in the car and become a good driver. Someone was with you, directing and guiding you... maybe sometimes grabbing the wheel as you were coasting off the road.Be her driving instructor. Gradually you became a good driver. She will learn to drive her own mind in a healthy safe way as well.

CV




Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 06/30/11 01:47 PM
Im doing all I can to keep myself even keeled throughout this whole thing. Ive tried to stay honest to my feelings and not sugar coat anything with falsehoods. As my peer group advisors, it makes no sense to omit stuff.

Well, one thing I neglected to tell you all about was money owed to my FWW by OM. This was 401K money she had that we gave him to invest as is his business. This money did very well for many years for us up until the downturn in economy a few years ago. However, he told both me and FWW that he will personally guarantee this money. So when the investment went bye-bye a few years ago, we always believed our principal will be there. Right after dday, my FWW had no doubt she would get this money despite no longer providing services and during my many AOs and vicious attacks I called them "horizontal promises" that no longer apply. (Man, I was able to pretty mean to her.)

We're talking about thousands of dollars. To cut to the chase, we asked my FWW's brother to interact with OM to make sure that money gets to us. OM is getting the first check to us next week. And, we will have a payment plan in place in Sept.

We do have descrepancy as to the exact amount owed and if OM thinks his number is going to be accepted by us, then I will make my first visit to him. Until then my bro in law will pick up checks and set up the repayment plan. When we reach the point where he feels he's paid in full and we dont, I cannot accept this. I cant bore you with the full details on the descrepancy, but I will not allow him to (bleep) my wife again by shorting us by $14K.

Anyway, my FWW is not involved in the conversation at all. We have had a couple good days and I attribute it to last number of posts from the group. Ive read them to her and she does see some of the personality issues I am speaking of. And more, she is very scared that some of her ways are being exhibited by our little girl.

I told her that she and I will be work slowly, carefully, tenderly, and with focus on improving both of us in these areas.
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 07/01/11 01:14 AM
Well I would consider the money lost. What a sleaze this guy is, yeah I hope your wife sees it too, Im trusting she does.

If you are adament about getting the money, have it sent to you, and in no way is she to know about the payments. Your wife does not get to know how much of an "honorable" man he is by paying back the money, and OM doesnt get his,"Im not so bad after all" fix either.

Sounds like a set-up to me, another way for him to stay connected to someone he screwed, and screwed over. This guy should be like he never existed or was taken back to his home planet to you guys. I understand getting back the money might be important but it would be a painful remender to me of what this guy did everytime I got a check.

See if you can have the check sent to a trusted friend to be deposited so it wont come to your home addy, that way on a bad day it wont be a thorn in your side, and will never be seen by your wife.

But if you never see another dime, you have your family, $14K is a small price in my book.
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 07/01/11 01:18 AM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
Until then my bro in law will pick up checks and set up the repayment plan..

Ah I missed this..good move
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/04/11 12:35 AM
Fighting some demons in my head for 2 days. Trying to stay cool around kids and fww and be a big man. Bad stretch of days. Too much running thru my head for me handle sometimes.

None of these thoughts are complimentary to my wife so I hold them in. She destroys me mentally and possibly for life and I get to hold in my bad thoughts about her.

Don't know where I am in recovery. Just riding a rough wave.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/04/11 12:39 AM
Fighting some demons in my head for 2 days. Trying to stay cool around kids and fww and be a big man. Bad stretch of days. Too much running thru my head for me handle sometimes.

None of these thoughts are complimentary to my wife so I hold them in. She destroys me mentally and possibly for life and I get to hold in my bad thoughts about her.

Don't know where I am in recovery. Just riding a rough wave.
Posted By: chickadee1 Re: Deception - 07/04/11 02:53 AM
write them down, DONT say them to her, not yet talk about them once you digest them and if they mean anytinng.... not just the rollercoaster crap.

come on mike you are doing great, havent seen you around, thats a good sign


oh yeah i have alot of money owed too, forget it.....

Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/04/11 11:54 PM
Terrible weekend. Ended with some tears from fww. No ao but still she asked what my bad mood all weekend was about. Now she knows. I am having trouble with lots of things. Mostly how does someone who did what she did expect me to forgive? The mental movies are doing me in emotionally. She asked. H and O right?
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 07/05/11 12:04 AM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
Terrible weekend. Ended with some tears from fww. No ao but still she asked what my bad mood all weekend was about. Now she knows. I am having trouble with lots of things. Mostly how does someone who did what she did expect me to forgive? The mental movies are doing me in emotionally. She asked. H and O right?

H & O tempered with love. yes. What's giving you trouble brother?
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/05/11 01:45 AM
Cv_ same old story. My issues in my brain. She's followed the program to the letter it me who falls short with the past coming into my head all too often. The mental movies doom me to depression and anxiety.
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: Deception - 07/05/11 04:32 AM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
Cv_ same old story. My issues in my brain. She's followed the program to the letter it me who falls short with the past coming into my head all too often. The mental movies doom me to depression and anxiety.

Mike, those movies will eventually end. It will take some time (that time depending on how long you dwell on them), but they will end.

I would suggest a complete change of circumstances, to accelerate the healing process. This includes relocating, and changing everything you can change. The less triggers around, the less times your brain will be playing those movies for you.

In my case, I tried to change as much as possible, but I kept our home (where my WW engaged in her A), and our marital bed (ditto). As a result, those movies kept going in my head for years after D-Day, and every now and then they still appear, though they are a lot rarer now. I would have found it difficult to move, considering we're in such a great location, but I should have tossed out that bed years ago!

Posted By: Mr_Recon6mo Re: Deception - 07/05/11 06:13 AM
MSS, try to remind yourself that you are very early in recovery. It will take years not months to recover. I hope your FWW is not excpecting you to heal in such short time. Is she aware that recovery after infidelity will take minimally 2 years and most probably more years?

I think it is totally normal to let your FWW know when you are in pain. It can be done without love busters.

Destroy as much triggers as you can. "Money connection" to OM is not healthy. I really hope that you can leave that behind as soon as you can.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Deception - 07/05/11 06:23 AM
Mike;

One of the greatest services that you can do for yourself at this time is to take even the concept of "forgiveness" and toss it out the window.

It's to be earned, not given, and dwelling on it will be like dragging a stone through recovery.

Trust me, forget about it for now.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/05/11 11:02 AM
Im having difficulties with her complete disregard for me as a human being let alone her husband during this afffair. She allowed him into our home vitually weekly with his family. She wore an expensive diamond bracelot all the time that he gave her. And just didn't seem to give a darn about it. NOW she does. Funny how that happened.
Posted By: Tanam Re: Deception - 07/05/11 11:12 AM
Mike,

I think thats nail on the head time, as a BW I too have difficulty in working out how he could be a loving H, telling me regularly how he loved me, and yet still rutting with his own particular B****H for so long.

Did it never occur to him how I might have felt, that what he was doing was wrong.....well yes it did and he was, certainly for the last 2 years of it, miserable and stressed. He wanted out but felt stuck

Weak willed F**k wit.

Scared of reactions from her and me, scared of implications and scared of what next.

So he kept on keeping on with his stupid double life and all the misery that brought.

I think your WW and my WH could compare many notes, I don't think he was happy. although we have talked, he finds talking about his feelings hard, but he seems happier and more relaxed these days.

I on the other hand feel like I am waiting for the other shoe to drop, when she does/if she does contact him, will he be strong enough to tell her where to go or will he respond to her Damsel in Distress.

As a result I don't feel as though I can relax as I need to be ready to walk if he can't be strong.

Tis a tough path you and I chose when we chose to stay. Know you still have a get out of jail free card!

Posted By: ManInMotion Re: Deception - 07/05/11 11:47 AM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
Im having difficulties with her complete disregard for me as a human being let alone her husband during this afffair. She allowed him into our home vitually weekly with his family. She wore an expensive diamond bracelot all the time that he gave her. And just didn't seem to give a darn about it. NOW she does. Funny how that happened.

It's typical WW behaviour. In my case, I gave my FWW a new wedding ring to replace one that was lost. We went through the blessing ceremony and everything. I thought it was a great experience for us. Turns out it was a great experience only for me, as less than a week later she was hopping into bed with the OM for the first time. And she chose our bed for the occasion too.

It's going to be difficult NOT to feel bitter about things like this. What you should do, if you want to avoid this bitterness from taking over your life, is concentrate on filling your M NOW with great experiences. My FWW and I went on an extended vacation overseas several months after D-Day. It helped a lot. It's a pity that we didn't keep up the effort though.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/05/11 12:59 PM
Originally Posted by Mr_Recon6mo
MSS, try to remind yourself that you are very early in recovery. It will take years not months to recover. I hope your FWW is not excpecting you to heal in such short time. Is she aware that recovery after infidelity will take minimally 2 years and most probably more years?

I think it is totally normal to let your FWW know when you are in pain. It can be done without love busters.

Destroy as much triggers as you can. "Money connection" to OM is not healthy. I really hope that you can leave that behind as soon as you can.


I have said this a lot because its true, my wife is devastated by her actions and the resulting mood swings and depression Im living with. She has all the patience in the world to make me better and not be so bitter towards her that I can be at times. Ive told her that many of you have indicated that recovery or at least the images that run thru my head may subside over 2-3 years. I asked her if she;d be able to handle that. She said for the first time this weekend she will accept and deserves anything that comes from this. I took this to me mean she is prepared for me to leave her or for me to move forward WITH her. She said its up to me. She wants me to stay and has done exactly what the program requires or suggests she does. Almost to the letter of the program.

With regards to the money OM owes us. (not just FWW, but US.) Im getting all of it. I will not let him screw her again by letting him off the hook, this is not an option. My wife has nothing to do with its collection.

She knows my pain even now 8 weeks later. I basically ruined the entire July 4th weekend for her and the kids by looking to sleep all day. Not sure why I was so tired, but my depression may have somehting to do wit it. When she asked me about my mood, I should have smiled and said just had a headache, but I took the opportunity to rub some salt in her wounds. I told her about the 3 BIG ISSUES Im facing on a daily basis: 1) the compete lack of respect/interest/feelings for me for all these years while bringing OM into my house almost weekly and getting me and our kids invested in that family while she's off the next days with him as his girlfriend (and you can add the fact she wore his very expensive diamond bracelot like she was his possession even at my dinner table), 2) being sexually active with another man for many, many years and the complete lack of remores and the resulting virtual video images of them in my head all day(see #3), and 3) only through a fluke did dday happen and if it didnt September is right around the corner and thats when her summer job ends and she'd be back in his bed.

So, again, Im not very far from dday in my progression or as you all have said Im 2-3 years from being able to not thing about this all day.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 07/05/11 01:47 PM
1) the compete lack of respect/interest/feelings for me for all these years while bringing OM into my house almost weekly and getting me and our kids invested in that family while she's off the next days with him as his girlfriend (and you can add the fact she wore his very expensive diamond bracelot like she was his possession even at my dinner table), 2) being sexually active with another man for many, many years and the complete lack of remores and the resulting virtual video images of them in my head all day(see #3), and 3) only through a fluke did dday happen and if it didnt September is right around the corner and thats when her summer job ends and she'd be back in his bed.

Okay, are you sure that's it? Absolutely, positively sure? No more issues after NG's magic helps your FWW take care of these, right? Okay, cover your eyes, this one is very powerful!
[Linked Image from bizreport.com]
Ok, it's done. FWW will never again treat you and your marriage disrespectfully, engaging in sexual activity with another man, and will promise to do everything she can to comfort you and make reparations for your pain.

THAT IS ALL SHE CAN DO, MSS, AND SHE DID IT WEEKS AGO!

Right now one person is actively damaging your marriage's chances for a better future. It's not FWW, it's not POSOM. It is you, amigo.

No one said that recovery on the part of a BH is easy. On the contrary, it is hard work. That point was made to you probably back on week one. At that time, it was also pointed out to you that ONCE YOU MAKE THE CHOICE - leave or work - you do NOT get to review and re-make the choice every time the wind changes direction.

You haven't yet stepped up to doing the hard work that is necessary. That hard work includes mentally halting your thoughts when they drift to self-pity. That work includes expending the effort to look toward your future when you want to grovel in the past. That effort certainly includes getting your pathetic a$$ out of bed and enjoying a holiday with your family. (You will NEVER have a repeat opportunity to celebrate Independence Day 2011!)

When we here agreed to help and support you through the process, there was an implied agreement that as much as we would help, you would have to do the WORK. When do you plan to start?
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/05/11 02:49 PM
Again, NG, foot firmly placed on my behind. Well taken. And I wont copy you on the email I just my wife, which I basically apogized for ruining the weekend, subtle implications of my future (here or elsewhere), and general moving backwards of this recovery.

And, as you perfectly stated and I have stated to the FWW on nearly occasion, she done and continues to do what she needs to do get this on track. IM the flake who blows in the wind and "changes my direction" on every change.

Restarting our recovery (or kickstarting) today, Im going to run a iced coffee over to her at her job unannounced. Huh? Good? Not roses and champaign, but a little token of my regret for killing the weekend.

Thanks NG. You are too good at this!
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 07/05/11 04:40 PM
...foot firmly placed on my behind. Well taken.

Pardner, as many times as you want to be #15 in red,
I'll stand ready to be #17 in blue! rotflmao



No one here will give up on you and your situation, if you don't give up on yourself!
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/05/11 07:34 PM
She works outside in the summer and the iced coffee surprise worked great.

Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Deception - 07/05/11 09:38 PM
Mike,

You have to reign this in. Just as her apologies for adultery do nothing for you, an accumulation of Love Busters over time using her adultery as justification will start to have apologies fall flat.


Obviously, you don't feel good doing it. I know I didn't.

The solution is to be H&O with your wife before you explode; "I am having a bad day, can we get away for a little while?"

Continue stuffing it, and this cycle will continue.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/05/11 10:43 PM
Im working on all aspects of this. I just wanted to vent a little of my thoughts and waited for her to ask. I kept it at a mellow tone and still did some damage. It simply repeating what Ive said before and what really didnt need repeating, it was a chance for me to puff my chest and say Im not always going to be the victim. My outlining of the issues yesterday was stupid, selfish, and made no sense which ironically is how I characterize her A.

We both agreed we are apologizing too much and for the same things which as you said will ring hollow soon.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Deception - 07/06/11 01:21 AM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
Im working on all aspects of this. I just wanted to vent a little of my thoughts and waited for her to ask. I kept it at a mellow tone and still did some damage. It simply repeating what Ive said before and what really didnt need repeating, it was a chance for me to puff my chest and say Im not always going to be the victim. My outlining of the issues yesterday was stupid, selfish, and made no sense which ironically is how I characterize her A.

We both agreed we are apologizing too much and for the same things which as you said will ring hollow soon.

Well, you are progressing quicker than I did, dude.

I was 6 months in before I went searching and stumbled on MB, and it was another 2-3 months before I started posting on the forum.

Posted By: Surfer88 Re: Deception - 07/06/11 01:52 AM
Logged in so throwing a "kudos" ball to you both (MSS and HHH).
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/06/11 01:54 AM
I found the forum about 2 weeks after dday. I stopped seeing a psychologist after 2 visits as I felt I got all the help I need from here. Some think I should still be seeing someone, but I get to speak on here 24 hrs a day and get all the help I need. When I fail, I have a half dozen or more people who pick me up or kick me in the butt. The fact my FWW is completely remorseful and regretful, hates the OM with fury, and has begged me for forgiveness has made this a little easier to move through the process. But, yes, I agree Im a very lucky guy not to have to deal with much of what many of BS face. I will get thru the mental image volleys and learn to accept who Im married to is not the perfect being I once thought she was and we will be fine going forward. I am getting more honesty from my FWW as she understands its what I need from her. Her best friend since college said it best, on May 8th my FWW finally grew up. And the adult Im married to now is really someone I like. Im lucky as I said.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Deception - 07/06/11 02:35 AM
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
RS, one way to look at this, is that being the victim of infidelity is like being diagnosed as a diabetic. There isn't a "cure" for betrayal, you just have to treat the symptoms, and manage the "disease."

The treatment for symptom flare-ups, in your case anger, is for you and your spouse to lock down and refocus;

What are my spouse's top 3 ENs?

What am I doing to meet them?

What are my worst 3 love-busters?

What am I doing to avoid them?

re my spouse and I getting the required UA time (20+ hours weekly to restore love, 15+ hours to maintain)?

What can I do to create opportunities to reach that time (3 hours a day for restoration, 2+ for maintenance)?

Am I being radically honest with my spouse (about my feelings, plans, etc)?

This is just a quick list. Another thing you can do is to review the ENQ and LBQ. You could do this once weekly, and share them each week, and also use that time to schedule out each week of UA time.

There is no cure for the disease of betrayal, but there is a way to manage that disease and treat the symptoms.


Mike,

The plain and simple fact is that we have been handed a total life-altering injury.

NOTHING is going to change that. Even the happiest divorcee knows that twinge of regret. The most thankful divorced victim of infidelity, who has moved on to a new, wonderful marriage will still feel that sting.

We've been stripped of innocence.


It is paramount that we learn to live with our new condition, and not allow it to stop us from being the best father, husband, friend, and lover that we can be.

We are innocence amputees, and there is no prosthetic replacement.

Strengthen the other aspects of yourself to compensate for that injury.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 07/06/11 05:12 AM
The plain and simple fact is that we have been handed a total life-altering injury...We've been stripped of innocence...We are innocence amputees, and there is no prosthetic replacement.

Trip, I'll admit to being impressed by your imagery. But, not having been "innocent" for many years before d-night, I would substitute "respect" for "innocence". Additionally, I think you missed giving one warning that you and I have learned, that I'd want MSS to hear straight up:

Having suffered that unjustified "respect-ectomy" the one path that cannot be followed to restore one's self-respect is to perform the same unnecessary surgery on another party. It's not enough to remember that "big boys don't cry"; It's equally vital to know that "big boys don't make others cry".
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/06/11 12:44 PM
Thanks guys, the last two posts were strong. I know I have a long way to go, in fact, we have our whole lives to go, but I am looking to strengthen the other parts of my emotions that she didnt destroy as HHH suggested. Yes, respect and innocence are gone and will take a long while to regain at the least something resembling respect in our marriage.

Staying out of my periodic "funks" is crucial. It leads to everyone (including my still innocent kids) being miserable. It opens the mental video room where I see things I hate and it leads to contempt (the killer of recovery). It makes the FWW shut down emotionally to me as she doesnt know what to do to make me happy.

I have to be a man. Its sexist but its true. I have children who depend on a man not some cowering worm looking to be held all the time. My wife needs someone to get passed her shortcomings and mistakes and see them for what they are today: regrettable. A man with confidence in who he is would be doing all this.

And NG-you killed weeks back when I suggested I go look for my own side action to get back at FWW for hers. I was much younger then and certainly no where close to being on the program. I even suggested it to OMW on dday in a moment of stupidity. "Lets even this thing up, lets start our own long term thing, and whats even better, we dont have to hide it, we can walk in the door and say what we just did." Moronic, juvenile, and remarkably short sighted. Which, NG, you said about the same then. I even brought up the subject to my wife early on when I was an AO'ing fool, and since she was in full-on keeping me aboard the ship mode and I was flinging poop around, she said I can do whatever will make me love her again even its another woman. Again, post SAA and HN,HN, to even relay this ridiculous moment in time is embarassing.

I have told FWW on 100 occasions, I only want her. Unless of course, Charlize Theron and I somehow hook up. She said she'd take her chances.




Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 07/06/11 07:13 PM
One thing that occurred to me... That in the marriage, there are little signals along the way... Ones that we miss. ones that signify our WS's drift from fidelity... They are seen in the little aggravations of daily life (coffee with no creamer, spouse late because of work and you had something you were supposed to get done, etc...). Little unhappinesses that in retrospect don't matter (I never died because we had powdered creamer or W forgot a pack of smokes when she was at the store).

Little orange flags if you will... not quite red ones, but serious enough to warrant attention to.

Ones that over time if left unchecked can cause respect top begin fading in the marriage before an A.

What am I saying? That often times (not always) respect diminishes long before the affair starts... On both sides. That idea of sin begets more sin. It snowballs... Affairs often wake us up to those realities and those of us who "get it" protect ourselves and our spouses from it happening again.

So while affairs can damage and even destroy respect in marriages, it doesn't have to. A spouse can never take your self- respect unless you let them. A spouse can only disrespect themselves and their commitment.


Innocence? well that innocence that was there initially at the wedding for some of us is certainly lost forever. The innocent thought that our spouse or ourselves could never be like this. The innocence that comes from an undefiled marriage.

But grace makes beauty out of ugly things... And we as BS' have the power to extend grace.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/06/11 07:24 PM
The dispute over the money owed by OM to my FWW is coming to a boil now. We have a difference of opinion as to what the amount is and its significant. He is adamant that my FWW and I agreed to one amount as he explained it to us on at least a few occasions over the years. Which, frankly, as a somewhat convoluted method he used really went over my head each time and I certainly wasnt thinking he was in an A with my wife, I just expected a certain amount to be there if the original investment died. Which it did. So here we are with tomorrow being the first good faith payment my bro in law is picking up. However, OM wants the amount owed in total confirmed and signed by us. In another way he is treating my wife like the piece of junk he treated her all along. Basically, he was guaranteeing our principal minus any loans we took from him against this money. AND, heres the catch, we also took PROFITS from the holding company in a good year WHICH HE ALWAYS HAS SAID HE IS DEDUCTING FROM WHAT HE OWES US. So, it our principle minus a loan minus OUR profits which didnt come from his pocket and we paid taxes on.

Im not sure why accepted this over the years, makes no sense then nor now. In light of the A, I stand firmly that Im better get the money net of loans. Period.

Anyway, FWW is livid. She's not accepting this. She wont accept half the amount she wants the entire amount principal minus the loan. My brother in law is trying to negotiate this with him its not going to be pretty. I know the rules about NC the OM, but I dont see how she can make her point going thru her brother. I certainly cant get involved because Ill end up in jail. She may need to go to the pick up tomorrow and fight him with her brother. If there was one iota, scintilla (sp?) of thought she even held the slightest of feelings in any other way than severe hatred towards OM, i wouldnt even dream of letting her go. But, were talking money she earned years before meeting him and money we paid taxes on and she not going to sit idly by while he treats her like crap again. She is not permitted to call him or email him at all. And, if I allow it, she will accompany her brother.

Its just amazing that this guy gets years of consort, friendship, and companionship from not only my FWW, but my entire family and he holds (and probably held my wife) in such low regard the entire time. To have us fight over her money is like just additional insult to add to her immense humiliation. Geez, I feel sorry for her.



Ill keep you posted.

Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 07/06/11 07:41 PM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
I certainly cant get involved because Ill end up in jail. She may need to go to the pick up tomorrow and fight him with her brother. If there was one iota, scintilla (sp?) of thought she even held the slightest of feelings in any other way than severe hatred towards OM, i wouldnt even dream of letting her go. But, were talking money she earned years before meeting him and money we paid taxes on and she not going to sit idly by while he treats her like crap again. She is not permitted to call him or email him at all. And, if I allow it, she will accompany her brother.

Its just amazing that this guy gets years of consort, friendship, and companionship from not only my FWW, but my entire family and he holds (and probably held my wife) in such low regard the entire time. To have us fight over her money is like just additional insult to add to her immense humiliation. Geez, I feel sorry for her.

Mike... Are you insane brother? I would not let my wife be anywhere near this doofus. Specially in light of what happened. Is the money really that important to you all? I'd tell him to take the principle and all of it and do something nasty with it.

If the money is essential to you living, go. Do not let her go to deal with someone she has been weak with before. Even if you don't talk, stnad next to her. Exercise self-control.

Me personally? I'd starve than receive a penny from my W's om.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/06/11 07:52 PM
Its money she earned 15 years ago and she's taking very personally for obvious reasons. Its just another on a stack of insults (videoing her without her knowing, etc.) and she's done with being a victim.

We're talking money we have counted on having in the next couple of years.

I hear you about the NC and just say goodbye and good riddance, Id love nothing more, but the $35K is hers. Not $21 OM wants to give us.

She is truly demoralized and to let this swindle go, i think she will pop a gasket internally. I really am trying to watch her what with the with my mental abuse I dole out and this [censored] trying to steal from her she may be very fragile.

Still a bad situation does get worse.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/06/11 09:32 PM
Its booked. She's going to join her brother at the drop site and will try to work out the money dispute with OM. I approved it as I think it will be good for her to vent and her brother will be there to make sure it goes OK. OM has managed to help my wife remove almost all her dignity in the passed 8 weeks and if this last remaining part is all has left than I think its best she fights for it. There will be no rekindling of romance, as I have said for weeks this was not a relationship for the ages. She hates him furiously. For better or worse.
Posted By: Kenmoore14217 Re: Deception - 07/06/11 09:45 PM
yes, she hates him when she's talking to you, but will she hate him when she talks directly to him?
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/07/11 01:17 AM
She is seething right now over this and cannot wait for tomorrow. No worries at all about her seeing him despite what the good book says.
Posted By: Surfer88 Re: Deception - 07/07/11 01:30 AM
Wow, Mike.
Posted By: Surfer88 Re: Deception - 07/07/11 01:32 AM
She "hates him"? Okie dokie.
Posted By: chickadee1 Re: Deception - 07/07/11 02:56 AM
mike- you may have more control at this point- i would go with them ( not that i think you should go at all but it you are all resolved) for 2 reasons-

1. you, knowing you a bit- will want to know everything that went on.

2. you should be there to support her in this (also making sure she does not do anything to wreck where you are- like hit him)

3 ok 3- you are a team, put the team game on and do it!


4- ok 4- it would show her you were behind her and the hero in this - ok did i repeat myself with reasons, i do have more?? just go..if you are going to do this....

i just think that you BIL should still go to hold you both back.

this is the both of you moving forward, she should not do this alone. you are supposed to protect her, not her brother.......

sorry just my thoughts as a woman.
Posted By: chickadee1 Re: Deception - 07/07/11 02:57 AM
and a wife
Posted By: chickadee1 Re: Deception - 07/07/11 03:05 AM
oh did i mention that h lend baby momma 15k for her home..... i'm right there with ya, good bye money- that was alot to spend for a BJ. not worth it to have the contact for me, i do know that it would do alot for charity and others (and that kills me beyond belief), but thats the price of my H mistake.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Deception - 07/07/11 03:48 AM
Sorry to say that your W is gaslighting you and apparently she is doing a very good job at it...

Oh, I am sure she has been working to convince herself that she "hates" OM and that he "forced" her to do things she didn't want to do -- she is still foggy which is normal given how long her affair was -- but remember, you told us yourself, she wore his bracelet despite all of this. Can you see how it is clear there was an emotional attachment on her part??

In order for you two to recover, you will need to stop listening to your W's interpretation of her A and feelings for OM and rather you will need to listen to Dr Harley. No contact means no contact no matter what reasoning the wayward gives you. She is like any other wayward looking to get a fix.
Posted By: Mr_Recon6mo Re: Deception - 07/07/11 07:17 AM
Have you thought that her "anger" over 35k->21k might actually be a plot to break NC? Even subconsciously? To see him "one last time"?

You are really playing with fire here.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/07/11 12:50 PM
No. I can see why all of your responses are the way they are. I appreciate your concern but I have spent 8 weeks learning a lot about my wife and this A she stayed in. I learned of incredible deceipt she's capable of. I also learned a lot about the nature of this A and I believe what she has told me. She has followed every instruction, demand, and insistance regarding NC and has no issue with any of it.

This last thing which affects us financially in a big way is something I dont see a way around. She is going with her brother who I have given explicit instructions about his involvement and he is to be there for every word. OM doesnt even know my wife is going so at the least the element of surprise will be something she can enjoy. He will be very shocked to see her show up for this.

Nonetheless, I dont feel any snowballing, any subterfuge to see him again. I have given my wife the green light to leave me and go join OM and his ranks of side babes on more than one occasion since dday. I will not stand in her way from her happiness if this guy is what she wants. Its better for the kids, me, and her that she is happy if it means her leaving. She has expressed nothing else but her desire to be here with me and rebuild our marriage. I have guarded her and protected her moreso in the last 2 months than ever.

I cannot go today because despite medication, I feel I will not be able to control my fists therefore I sent her brother. She told me to go to the parking lot and watch from a distance or stand beside her. I have an appt so Im going to focus on my work which has suffered from this thing the passed 2 months. I have absolutely not one concern about this meeting. This man treated my very weaken, naive FWW as a possession for many years. She may have seen it, definitely felt it but, not to keep rehashing this story, couldnt/didnt want to get out.

As lousy as it is for me to know, this was a financial relationship for them. She got some meaningless spending money and didnt have to search for a real job in a real company for many years, and he got her companionship which as I learned (and actually observed in hindsight) eroded over time. My wife has lost her self respect, self image, dignity, and our children have witnessed this to some degree. And, she'll be the first to say it was SHE that did it to herself. I have worked hard to overcome this self image problem with her and my psychological shortcomings too over the last couple of months.

She just left for work and her attitude is one I am proud of. She has her plan of what to discuss with OM and if nothing comes of it we'll have our closure with this money issue and we'll move on. This is not a woman looking to recapture a lost love. Sorry, I know many of you are thinking this.

Mother's Day was my FWW July 4th. Independence Day. I hate to even think about and as emasculating as it is to me, OM had a certain control and maintained this easiness in life my complacent/lazy wife couldnt resist. Heck, he spent a lot of time with me too and I got used to his generousity. He'd come over on Sunday's with a nice bottle of wine, appetizers, and sometimes brought in the food to cook. He was super nice. Took my kids to ball games. ALL BASED ON MONEY. He gave my FWW a credit card for buying that shirt or shoes or sunglasses we normally couldnt afford. She took advantage of that and it got easy. All it cost her was a BJ every so often.

So, when dday happened and Ive said this before, my beautiful but weak willed wife was freed. She said those exact words. Sad, pathetic, degrading, a collossal waste of time, destructive, selfish, and cruel. Yes to all. Its only fitting their last time together (today) will be a financial transaction.

I have to build trust in my wife and it started weeks back and it continues today. She could have worked with her brother and not told me about today's pickup and could have met them with my knowing. We are a team and partners since 5/8. Play time is over.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 07/07/11 12:54 PM
Originally Posted by Mr_Recon6mo
Have you thought that her "anger" over 35k->21k might actually be a plot to break NC? Even subconsciously? To see him "one last time"?

You are really playing with fire here.

Yeah. I am sorry, but I have to agree, Mike. This is VERY dangerous and I wouldn't let her go at all. Susie and Chick's right too. Quibbling over an amount that big (small?)? Take what he's offering and break it off. NC for good. It's just money.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 07/07/11 12:55 PM
Money given and promised in the context of a horrendous act I might add.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/07/11 01:06 PM
Gotcha. My wife's dignity or whats left is at stake. She needs to do this to build up something in her thats missing for the time she spent with him. Something I, her pyschologist, her best friend have been getting her to regain or perhaps find for the first time. If her brother wasnt going, this wasnt happening.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/07/11 01:07 PM
Also, this money was guaranteed BEFORE the A started. We invested 2 years before she decided to work for him I might add.
Posted By: Deacon_Blues Re: Deception - 07/07/11 01:11 PM
Paragraphs, please!
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/07/11 01:18 PM
Originally Posted by Possum
Paragraphs, please!

Done!
Posted By: Jim_Flint Re: Deception - 07/07/11 02:06 PM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
She may have seen it, definitely felt it but, not to keep rehashing this story, couldnt/didnt want to get out.

... OM had a certain control and maintained this easiness in life my complacent/lazy wife couldnt resist.

ALL BASED ON MONEY.

...my beautiful but weak willed wife....

Sad, pathetic, degrading, a collossal waste of time, destructive, selfish, and cruel.

Mike,

My friend, you will regret this to the end of your life.

If you searched the posts on MB for all the failures because of broken no contact because their situation was "unique" you would be amazed that others have tried what you are doing and failed...

Every single one.

It is all based on money, as you said, because the truth is...

if you didn't want the money you wouldn't allow her to go.

As you have read, my life was destroyed by an affair beween my ex-brother and my wife.

I no longer allow any contact AT ALL between them.

I tried ONCE for a funeral of a family members husband.

She SWORE that if he tried to have any contact with her or our children she would turn and walk away with the children.

She didn't.

She sat there helplessly and even though SHE did nothing wrong, other than not taking the child away from him, she was helpless to leave the addiction.

You were so close, and NOW you want to start RECOVERY from DAY ONE again???

FOR MONEY???

Mike, please don't be offended but this is the truth.

And EVERY single recovered MB will agree.

Please don't allow this Mike, you WILL regret it...

Jim
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 07/07/11 02:24 PM
Well Mike he is still getting his fix by abusing your wife as far as I am concerned.

From all the pitiful tragic and dramatic "Lurve", stories I have witnessed, its more of the same.

Money or not, NC means NC. Now she will go back to square 1, and withdrawal will start all over again.

"Bend over baby and you can't do anything to stop me"
ALL these affairs are about hurting someone, and in her case it was about being controlled.

If she wants that and wants to play poor victim, and say its "about the money", then either she is really disturbed, or straight up lieing. I don't buy the,"I don't know what I was doing, can't help myself" crap.

There is no amount of money that can replace what you guys have lost, you going to jail is not the answer, you guys have to drop the money excuse of how she is involved with that sleaze, she got conned by him and he loves to abuse you both.

Go with her and don't beat the crap outta the stupid oaf, but be present, get whatever signed and take the loss, and never let her contact him again, as long as you are alive.

This is gonna set your recovery way back, and the money thing will be a constant connection. Sorry your having such a hard time with this, good luck.
Posted By: chickadee1 Re: Deception - 07/07/11 02:32 PM
mike-

just a thought... the money you get from ahole. you lets say buy a couch, what are you going to think of everytime you snuggle up with your wife.

this is not going to end well, even if the meeting goes "fine"

twoxfour
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 07/07/11 03:01 PM
and if you must go, make sure his wife is there too. Your brother, you, his wife, the whole shebang. If you must go. Square one is a horrible place to be. Please don't deceive yourself into thinking this is different. Sign the durn papers and take the 21k.

Heck, leave her in the car and you do the transaction. Pull yourself together and do this right.
Posted By: No_Stress_Zone Re: Deception - 07/07/11 05:45 PM
Am I the only one that is concerned about the violence, at the meeting? Long term emotional, that's a given. 35K is a LOT of money to the players in this situation, they are ALL ticked off over it.

I do not see this ending well. In any way.

Since this was a loan, where's the lawyers dealing with it? If not done right, it was not a loan, it was a gift.

Think about this. The OM? He stands to lose too. What's to stop him OR your wife for that matter, of pulling out a gun when the other does not agree to their demands.

Maybe I have a morbid mind. I've been robbed twice at gunpoint by the same guy. Know what? He was ready to shoot me for THREE DOLLARS. I can only imagine what 35K would make one do. Especially someone who is controlling.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/07/11 08:12 PM
All-

It went exceedingly well for my wife this morning. No violence. Sheesh! She showed up right after her brother and OM sat down at a coffee shop. Totally surprised him. (Her brother knew she was coming but he also acted surprised and annoyed.) Anyway, she got a commitment for the entire amount. She expressed how hurt she is and wants nothing to do with him or his company. She got into the videotaping stuff started to cry and her brother stopped her from going on. She demanded the entire amount we wanted. We got a big down payment today and a payment schedule of over 18 months. We will not have any contact going forward. Her brother will collect the money and will initiate all contact going forward. The NC rule is back in effect.

I know this is a shockingly, bad move in some of your thoughts, but to me I feel fine about it. Im living with a woman with about as low self esteem, self worth, zero dignity, and whats worse she did it all to herself, no one forced this on her. This last bit where OM wanted to strip her of whatever of this was left, was too much for her and for me. She needed to face him, needed to let him know how hurt she was, and fought for what was hers. OK, not exactly Hollywood movie material, I understand that, but to get back a little dignity which she did was worth me putting my newly forming trust in her on the line.

Mike
Posted By: chickadee1 Re: Deception - 07/07/11 08:40 PM
i am glad it went ok, everyone here is concerned for you. you are doing so great, no one want to see it go wrong now after so much effort.

Ok, not you CANNOT have any AO's about the money or the meeting! NONE! its over.

Now take her out to dinner.
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 07/07/11 08:42 PM
Ok so back to the work of building romantic love then.

Just make sure she confides any thoughts about how mad she is with OM to you, and be aware of the emotional attachment she still has to this POS

When in years from now, both you and her can look back if nesessary to this time, and it doesn't bring up deep resentment and fear, it will be because you both have done the work.

God bless your efforts.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/07/11 08:55 PM
Yes. We are back to normal rebuilding of our marriage. This was a weight lifted for sure.

You know?, its interesting how OM cannot tell his wife about this money. It was a deal he made without ever telling her. Not that he shared a lot of his business dealings with her, but Im sure she would have not been so happy back then when it was made or definitely now when we're collecting. Again, this deal was made 2 yrs before the A. OK, certainly it was cemented throughout the A. I can admit that.

So, we in the interest of continuing payments will have to live his lie. Not that we'll have any contact with OMW or OM but it was something worth noting with my FWW today about how great a guy he is that even after his dday, he's got to keep lies going.

Maybe a small dig to her, couldnt resist.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 07/07/11 09:12 PM
its interesting how OM cannot tell his wife about this money. It was a deal he made without ever telling her. Not that he shared a lot of his business dealings with her, but Im sure she would have not been so happy back then when it was made or definitely now when we're collecting. Again, this deal was made 2 yrs before the A. OK, certainly it was cemented throughout the A. I can admit that. So, we in the interest of continuing payments will have to live his lie. Not that we'll have any contact with OMW or OM but it was something worth noting with my FWW today about how great a guy he is that even after his dday, he's got to keep lies going.

You might have noted how NG, who can't resist expressing his opinion on EVERYTHING, had nothing to say regarding your arranging and completing this financial closure. It was NOT because I had no opinion (yeah, right!) but because I wanted to enter this phase of the advice to you uncorrupted by prior statements. Are you ready? Good, get a pencil and paper and write this down........

NOW THAT BIL HAS MANAGED THIS FOR YOU, YOU AND WW ARE NEVER TO MENTION, DISCUSS, CONSIDER POSOM AGAIN, FOR ANY REASON, IN ANY CONTEXT.

Every time you do that, you will set back your recovery by a measurable amount - she by recalling her incredible stupidity, you by remembering his/her betrayal of you. STOP IT TODAY!

From this day forward, there is only you and WW, trying to rebuild your lives together. Crank up that UA time, over-satisfy her ENs (Yes, YOU do that next!), and start the rejuvenation of your love-lives.

Can you do that? Today, and for the rest of your life?
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Deception - 07/07/11 10:38 PM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
She demanded the entire amount we wanted. We got a big down payment today and a payment schedule of over 18 months. We will not have any contact going forward. Her brother will collect the money and will initiate all contact going forward. The NC rule is back in effect.


Don't shoot the messenger but, no, you are incorrect, NC is not in effect. You are now in contact for the next 18 months. You will be reminded of the affair with every payment and with the $$, and your W will probably remain foggy (which her victim mentality is a sign of).

There is a reason that such radical advice to avoid any type of contact such as leaving a job or even moving to another state is recommended regardless of the financial implications. You have convinced yourself that this advice does not apply to you because your W expresses "hate" for OM. This spells disaster for your R.

Sorry, Mike, but we do you no favors if we sugar coat things...



Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
She needed to face him, needed to let him know how hurt she was, and fought for what was hers.

Nope, what she needed to do was put ExtraOrdinary Precautions above everything else, her need to confront him, the $$, everything. The ExtraOrdinary Precautions are in place to not only to protect the marriage from a rekindling the affai, but to also protect the BS from any further pain ~ because ANY contact AT ALL between her and the OM is extremely offensive to the BS. Period. Your W doesn't get it yet. Sorry.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Deception - 07/07/11 11:01 PM
Was the OMW informed that NC was going to be broken today? She is also a victim of your WW's and OM's and this contact is incredibly offensive to her as well. I sure hope her feelings were taken into consideration, but I don't think we have heard you mention her yet...
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/07/11 11:22 PM
This money allows us to do things we otherwise couldnt do for our family. Ive taken every precaution I could but she HAD to speak for herself or else he would have made the deal he wanted. I dont agree the program cannot be modified or some of us have extenuating circumstances. It was a controlled confrontation by ME. OM had nothing to do with her being there or even knew she was going to show. If you are saying my wife put herself there to get "that old magic back" then as I said earlier I took a gamble on my growing trust of her which is telling me she went only to secure her money owed. I may not have made this clear, I TOLD MY WIFE TO GO. She didnt ask or even suggest. She thought her brother would be able to negotiate in our favor and I felt he didnt have skin in the game and wed lose.

My wife and I were friends with these people for a long time and she was having an affair with him for much of that time, if you think a monthly deposit is going to trigger emotions for her, I think you are wrong. We will never forget them for all sorts of reasons, especially as I collect my $35,000.

NG-Yes you were strangely missing from this money collection scenario. It wasnt my dream to be dealing with my wife's A in the first place, didnt ask for such an honor. It also comes with so much baggage and the last big one is/was this money. We solved it in the only way I thought it could go well for us. We have spoken about the NC rule being reinstated, we spoke about emotions she felt today, we spoke about continuing our moving forward without the uttering of his name.

The deal was sealed by a handshake with my bro in law and OM. This deal is actually between them as men. We are just the beneficiaries.

Im extremely proud of my wife despite some of you think she is playing me. I said to you my wife actually grew up on May 8th of this year and today was proof. She took care of some of her own business for a change. She didnt rely on a man (or anyone else) to get what she wanted. THIS is a big thing for her and me. Whatever grip OM had on her was released on 5/8 and today was further proof of that.

This is how we are moving on by boosting her confidence and self esteem. And she is helping me by boosting the same in me. I have confidence she made a mistake and got caught up in something she couldnt stop and I know she regrets it all. She picked me -- I won. (celtic voyager, a few weeks back).
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/07/11 11:27 PM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
Was the OMW informed that NC was going to be broken today? She is also a victim of your WW's and OM's and this contact is incredibly offensive to her as well. I sure hope her feelings were taken into consideration, but I don't think we have heard you mention her yet...

Nope. I feel bad about this but I need to get whats mine and right now OM has it. If he wants to perpetuate his marriage demise with lies, all the more power to him. My wife is with me and I am with her. We want our money and we cannot worry about OMW. We are working on our marriage and its going terrific. This money thing was our last obstacle.

Posted By: SusieQ Re: Deception - 07/07/11 11:53 PM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
Originally Posted by SusieQ
Was the OMW informed that NC was going to be broken today? She is also a victim of your WW's and OM's and this contact is incredibly offensive to her as well. I sure hope her feelings were taken into consideration, but I don't think we have heard you mention her yet...

Nope. I feel bad about this but I need to get whats mine and right now OM has it.

I find this attitude a bit cruel. You should have given her at least a heads up, and I see that CV gave you that advice but was ignored.

The fact that your WW was not concerned about OMW =

redflag redflag redflag


I will move on and let the others help you. Good luck!
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 07/08/11 01:53 AM
Now how about answering my question?

NOW THAT BIL HAS MANAGED THIS FOR YOU, YOU AND WW ARE NEVER TO MENTION, DISCUSS, CONSIDER POSOM AGAIN, FOR ANY REASON, IN ANY CONTEXT.

Can you do that? Today, and for the rest of your life?

Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/08/11 11:25 AM
Yes.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 07/08/11 12:27 PM
hurray
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/08/11 01:27 PM
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
hurray

In fact, I didnt get a chance to speak to her alone with the kids around yesterday so I told her I need a few minutes of alone time on the phone after she gets to work this morning. Usually this scares her so I let her know its "great news" I need to tell her.

I told her I proud of her and she should be proud of how far she has come since dday. I said this conversation will be the last time we speak of OM and the A in ANY context. She said "Thank God". Since we were very close as families to OM we need to address people who are asking about them and do not/will not know of the A. So, to protect her reputation (and Im protecting her in every aspect of her life as best as I can) and our children we agreed to call it a dispute over money we invested with him and he reneged on his promise and this dispute has resulted in us not speaking anymore. Case closed. We have several friends who have now asked about them a few times. And the dance I have to do, I dont want to do anymore and I cant tell these friends the truth.

So, my wife and I will go with this story so we can continue not discussing the A, the OM, and move on with our lives. So in effect, some of you are correct when you said we are almost back to square one with our recovery. She and I are OK with that then.

As per your instructions.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/08/11 02:22 PM
SusieQ: Ive valued your input and understand the disappointment in me about OMW and keeping her in the dark about the meeting and other stuff. OM is responsible for all of this as far as Im concerned. He kept the relationships going no matter how much my wife and the other girls were willing participants. He provided the money which all this was based on. I get to live with this fact my wife stayed with another man because she needed a sugar daddy. I cannot protect my wife AND his wife. I have too much on my plate to worry about her.

OMW also did some things early after dday, which I totally understand, to hurt my wife. Pretty natural to attack my FWW for what she did. Cant blame her. But, she did on more than one occasion seek to get my little girl involved with emails and she threatened to tell our Facebook friends about the A too.

I did do the confrontation with OM and OMW with all facts as per the program upon dday. Ive followed advice as best as I could, but yesterday and this will be my last thought about it, had to happen the way it happened.

OM said so much in his email to us weeks back, this is of his creating and if wants continue living this way and treating his wife and daughter like after thoughts, and so long as he doesnt look to talk or email or anything with my wife, I need to focus on my family, not his. Sorry if this is cruel to you.
Posted By: raindown Re: Deception - 07/08/11 02:35 PM
Quote
If he wants to perpetuate his marriage demise with lies, all the more power to him.


just.....wow


Actually more than just wow. UnFreakingBelievable! ...that anyone, much less someone who has been hurt by infidelity could say such a think is sickening!
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/08/11 02:52 PM
Originally Posted by raindown
UnFreakingBelievable!

Im not proud today. Im not crowing over here today. Im doing my best in what is the worst crisis I hope I ever have to face. Ive made mistakes, sure. Ive said wrong things to my wife and written things here I probably shoudnt have.

I in no way wish to OMW friend. We are bound by something Im workin hard to move passed. I pretty confident I have my WW on board with me and its taking every bit of my attention. I cannot and have zero desire to referee their marriage. The advice I got and what I gave her in our last conversation was to seek the truth, ALL THE TRUTH.

If you think its up to me to tell her that her husband is still living in lies otherwise Im sickening you, then, youre right, Im sick about it too.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/08/11 03:12 PM
I do see the irony in "seeking the truth" considering again my WW and OM are participating in a lie, but with me in cahoots against his wife. Its not lost on me.

So I get to now live with dirt on my hands.

The name of my thread says it all. Im now no better than WW and OM, arent I?

Sorry, Im very ashamed of myself. Ive tried to be true and faithful and live a certain way and, geez, when i got of the trail I was put back on, but Im hanging onto the fact that none of these A are the same and are handled perfectly with the participants riding off with the BS in the sunset. Sometimes we have to do what we have to do. Thats all.
Posted By: LuvsDavid Re: Deception - 07/08/11 03:15 PM
Your title is "DECEPTION "


Do you see the irony here? Everytime you tell that made up story instead of the truth? You are now pulled into deceptions also.

I could not live like that. It will come out one day and you will have to answer everyone you lied to including your grown children that come to you one day asking how they can save there marriage from an affair.

Just food for thought.


Edit: Ok, you were typing at the same time I was. So you see this......
Question is what are you going to do? Live like this the rest of your life or get the truth out so you can live in peace
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/08/11 03:32 PM
LD-

We clicked submit at the same time.

Yes, again, I didnt ask nor did my kids ask for their mother to do what she did. She did ask and we ALL chose to forgive her. We told everyone we felt we needed to about the A. We spoke to our children in as plain terms as possible about what happened.

We have life outside OM with non-mutual friends who know OM and family but are not friends. THESE are those we are not telling details of the A. Its a further humiliation for WW and me and we are opting to live without.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/08/11 03:52 PM
The only thing that helps us here is OM and family and my family are not part of big circle of friends which would have been a difficult thing to keep this quiet. They live in a separate community and frankly do not intersect with anyone we are close to here in our town.

Our children are not the same age so thats not a factor.

In hindsight, we were truly their only friends as far as i could tell. OMW has difficulty interacting with women her age so she really has no friends. OM was fixated, in hindsight, on my wife mostly.

Its only a couple of friends who have asked about them and we'll have to live what I think is unavoidable lie. I dont want these people thinking any differently about my wife and her mistake.
Posted By: schtoop Re: Deception - 07/08/11 04:04 PM
Count me in in agreeing with most everything Mike has done, and the need for some posters to lay off.

First, choosing not to tell every mutual aquaintence about what happened is NOT living a lie! The purpose of exposure it to break up the affair. Mike did expose to the important people and the affair is crushed. There is no need for further exposure to people whose no business it is. Just simply tell them that you don't associate with POSOM anymore for reasons you won't go into and leave it at that.

Secondly, Mike did expose to OMW. There is no need for further contact or to give her every detail of every dealing with OM.

Third, letting his wife meet with OM was a calculated risk. But, it was done in a very controlled environment for very good reasons. When Dr. Harley talks about NC for life, he's talking about notes or calls just to see how the AP is doing, he's talking about unplanned encounters at the workplace or neighborhood. I think there should be some leeway in this instance.

I think you've done very well, Mike, and wish you all the best on your road to recovery.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/08/11 04:14 PM
Thanks, Schtoop. Ive taken some heat here over the last 24 hours for some actions Ive taken. But as my sole source of therapy, I tell the truth so I have to take whatever is kicked back.

I do appreciate someone seeing things from my perspective.

mss
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 07/08/11 04:27 PM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
This money allows us to do things we otherwise couldnt do for our family. Ive taken every precaution I could but she HAD to speak for herself or else he would have made the deal he wanted. I dont agree the program cannot be modified or some of us have extenuating circumstances. It was a controlled confrontation by ME. OM had nothing to do with her being there or even knew she was going to show. If you are saying my wife put herself there to get "that old magic back" then as I said earlier I took a gamble on my growing trust of her which is telling me she went only to secure her money owed. I may not have made this clear, I TOLD MY WIFE TO GO. She didnt ask or even suggest. She thought her brother would be able to negotiate in our favor and I felt he didnt have skin in the game and wed lose.

Mike, Sorry I am having to say this bro... The program is in place the way it is for a reason. There are good reasons it should't be fiddled with. Let me tell you... I met with both OM's on several occasions (couple times to beat the snot outta 2nd OM for trying contact) It resets you.

You don't realize it at the time, because you feel you "got what you wanted", but it does. It halts progress, because the priority shouldn't be them or anything they have that you "deserve". It's not about getting back that "old magic", it's about NOT FOCUSING on what SHOULD be focused on. I'm sorry, to me, this is dirty money... Akin to me asking OM to reimburse me for the money my FWW spent on hotels... Don't want it and would rather starve.

Also, let me ask... HOW were you in control? She went without you right? How can you control what she is thinking and feeling? Gambling is always dangerous and you never gamble with something you really value. In this instance, your marriage and wife. You may win, but you may lose too, and it's not something you see necessarily in the immediate context.



My wife and I were friends with these people for a long time and she was having an affair with him for much of that time, if you think a monthly deposit is going to trigger emotions for her, I think you are wrong. We will never forget them for all sorts of reasons, especially as I collect my $35,000.


Exactly the point Susie and others are making... You will never be able to move on because you cannot put them out of your mind.



The deal was sealed by a handshake with my bro in law and OM. This deal is actually between them as men. We are just the beneficiaries.

Actually is your wife sat down with her former lover and helped negotiate, then she was part of the deal.

Im extremely proud of my wife despite some of you think she is playing me. I said to you my wife actually grew up on May 8th of this year and today was proof. She took care of some of her own business for a change. She didnt rely on a man (or anyone else) to get what she wanted. THIS is a big thing for her and me. Whatever grip OM had on her was released on 5/8 and today was further proof of that.


Let me be very clear... I DON'T think she is playing you, but after all that's happened, why put her in a situation that may cause confusion, angst and more questions? Why risk a *possible* relapse. If it ends up going well, great, but I do have another concern...

You are still on AD's right? They are only a temporary fix. Eventually, you are going to have to wean yourself off them and deal with the emotions yourself. It will be a new kind of battle.

I don't think she's playing you, but I think it was a dangerous game to play just for money.
Posted By: markos Re: Deception - 07/08/11 04:54 PM
Originally Posted by schtoop
Secondly, Mike did expose to OMW. There is no need for further contact or to give her every detail of every dealing with OM.

I can't understand why OMW should not know every single time contact is made. I thought that was the whole point of establishing contact with OPS.

Quote
Third, letting his wife meet with OM was a calculated risk. But, it was done in a very controlled environment for very good reasons. When Dr. Harley talks about NC for life, he's talking about notes or calls just to see how the AP is doing, he's talking about unplanned encounters at the workplace or neighborhood. I think there should be some leeway in this instance.

It's easy to leeway yourself right into severe marital problems.

I'm pretty sure when Dr. Harley talks about NC for life, he makes zero exceptions. He insists that no contact be made even to inform the OP of no contact. He strongly urges that jobs be left immediately or as soon as practicable and legal. And he makes no bones about the fact that contact = triggering = starting recovery over. In rare instances where some form of communication with a former affair partner is required, I've heard him say the communication should be done by the betrayed spouse or an intermediary and the formerly wayward spouse should not participate.
Posted By: markos Re: Deception - 07/08/11 04:58 PM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
Thanks, Schtoop. Ive taken some heat here over the last 24 hours for some actions Ive taken. But as my sole source of therapy, I tell the truth so I have to take whatever is kicked back.

I do appreciate someone seeing things from my perspective.

mss

You don't have to do everything the way it is specified here.

But I wonder why are you so concerned about "heat" from strangers on the Internet. Why does it matter to you strongly that we all agree with your actions? Why do you feel the need to find some exception who will see things from your perspective in the face of many people telling you that this was a mistake? Are you seeking out helpful advice, or just looking to be told what you want to hear?

These are rhetorical questions; don't answer me; answer for yourself. smile
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/08/11 04:59 PM
CV-

There's not much confusion in my FWW. Theres a clarity I have not seen in her ever. She let this man used her weaknesses for years to his advantage and she has little to show for it. Its demoralization on top of demoralization.

I did my best to explain why I sent her to this meeting. I knew emotions would be stirred and they were. Im building a trust in her that has only strengthened over 2 months. With this trust and her anger over this bit of money, I felt she best could fight for it.

Did it rekindle something? This man paid my wife to watch his kid and demanded oral sex on a virtual regular schedule. He'd hold out weekly payments so she'd have to ask for it so he could pressure her for this sex. He taped her multiple times doing this act. He taped another girl he was 2 timing my wife with. She would invite friends over to watch the baby and would pick them up on way there so she wouldnt be alone with him as much as possible. On other days she'd get the baby dressed and ran out of the house to avoid him. She'd complain to him that this pressure to perform was too much. And he say, 'what you dont like me anymore?'.

No, she didnt. She was lazy and wanted an easy job. So it came with one requirement that she'll live with forever.

You once said a person in an A has "ding dong thinking within a fog" or something like that. This is my wife's brain for the last years.

The good years, if they were good, were 4 or 5 years ago. Things were not great since then.

Im moved on, she's moved on. Mother's Day freed her. Yesterday's meeting further moved her along.

Its all I can say.

Posted By: raindown Re: Deception - 07/08/11 05:03 PM
I didn't mean to imply that you make me sick Mike. I've been where your OMW is though and your statement physically made me ill.

Quote
his wife called my house


You are fortunate that OMW notified you of the affair. I would think she deserves the same from you in case of contact.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/08/11 05:11 PM
Originally Posted by markos
But I wonder why are you so concerned about "heat" from strangers on the Internet. Why does it matter to you strongly that we all agree with your actions? Why do you feel the need to find some exception who will see things from your perspective in the face of many people telling you that this was a mistake? Are you seeking out helpful advice, or just looking to be told what you want to hear?

These are rhetorical questions; don't answer me; answer for yourself. smile

I have spent a lot of time reading the thoughts from those who have been betrayed and those who've betrayed. My pyschlogist I went to 2x early on when I was completely consumed by "sex" in the A suggested I have anal sex with my wife as "my claim" to her body. So, I discontinued the psychologist because I get more direct level headed advice, suggestions, path direction, and kicks in the a$$ from here.

I didnt seek anyone for approval on anything Ive done since I started this thread. Ive taken more advice than ignored it, thats for sure.

I have admitted things here that Im not proud of.

I am not seeking anyone's pat on the back.

I get that Ive gone against best judgement of Dr Harley and sent my wife to see her former lover. I did it for what I felt are the best reasons.

Some of the posters throughout this whole thing have become people I want to hear from because they write one thing or post one quote or imply one thing that inspires me. So to disappoint these same people when they become trusted sources of inspiration, thats why Im concerned about all the heat Ive taken.
Posted By: Deacon_Blues Re: Deception - 07/08/11 05:43 PM
Quote
I did my best to explain why I sent her to this meeting.
Your explanation was that you sent her -- she did not ask, but you sent her -- to ensure that you got the full amount of money from the deal. Which, to me, seems very much like you ... used ... your wife for money. As I recall, that's is exactly what the OM was doing. I fail to see how any of this helps her to regain some dignity in the situation.
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 07/08/11 06:35 PM
Hey Mike,

Just from my POV, and its not about just affairs, its about what might have driven her in the first place to be decietful.

My wife used to have a drinking problem, it seemed she could not ever say no when around people who drank, and there was no stopping once she started. Her desire to drink centered around being independant, and her personality changed after beer # 3. Yup Im an outta control wild one getting my share..Woo-hoo.

Part of whatever triggered her in this was allways kept secret, because, well, it was easier to belive others would not understand how tough life was for her, boo-hoo, than to get into an honest convo with people.

More deception, and making it worse again because of more deception. I certainly understand how substances are used when crap is just to heavy to handle, (her life as a young woman), but having to drink to feel free to express yourself? There was obviously a problem. It has to stop or it will kill you.

My dream was, and I believed in, her ability to go cold turkey and be able to control her drinking, through common sense and dealing with her emotions, that were obviously buried deep inside her where she would not, could not, bring them to the forfront. Cause and effect, why? She had extremely high moral standards, then dropped down to wild child when she drank a few. To me it was a matter of balance. I knew at that point that she really was not stable, but by the time I realized how entrenched this was with her, we were allready together with a child.

My leaving for two years brought her down to earth a little, but I still believed and thought she could control her drive to drink, even if surrounded by her slackjaw drugged up family, and it would be, "A proud badge of self-control". " A victory for her".

I let her go to her homestate after witnessing her handle herself well when her father died, two years later when she wanted to see her Step MIL. The reports I got years later,(Her family was so very careful not to tell if someone was a-drinkin, what loyalty hyuk), was that as soon as she got off the train it was take me to a bar.

That was the point where all recovery was lost, she hid in the bottle for two weeks, went to the local bars,(the kind where you wipe you feet on the way out?) with StepMIL and her newer, even more drunken than my late wives late father abusive boyfriend, and when she finnally came home, back to the children and me, she was nasty and defensive as ever to all of us. I knew what had happened, I knew that defensive guilt reflex, she had thrown it all away again. Now it was me that was entrenched, and after such a gloriuos recovery, I had accually started to get over the past, and BAM, back to square -1.

I kept it all to myself, didn't tell a soul, it would have embarrassed her to much. See we had moved next to her church, and everybody admired my wife, and she said how very important it was to be a part of that ministry, and that she would never want to drink again if she was there. That was her answer, that was better than AA, or phsychiatrists, and I wanted to believe that also, because I didn't want to accept that I wasn't all she needed.

The next 15 years was a slide down until we/she ended up in places we never thought we would, not after recovery, not after that gift from God for us and our family.

Just a word of caution, do you really want to take a chance on your recovery by being your wives sense of strength and security? Or are you willing to put this in the trusted hands of Dr H? I understand, some things we will never understand about you and your wives relationship. I can honor discretion in that you don't want to reveal every little wart to the world, or even be able to communicate to us so we could, "Get" how you work together. I get all of it, I am the poster child for taking the beatings for others and thinking I am doing them a favor because I am so understanding and all.

But it IS possible, that your love for your wife, might blind you to something she needs, that DR H counseling would help in, and you have a long way to go yet, trust me, to total recovery. I'm praying for you, and I just broke in tears, that you go to the experts, and don't try to handle this alone.

I leave you with these scriptures


Proverbs 1:5
A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:

Proverbs 19:20
Hear counsel, and receive instruction, that thou mayest be wise in thy latter end.

Proverbs 12:15
The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.

Proverbs 24:6
For by wise counsel thou shalt make thy war: and in multitude of counsellors there is safety

Lets not forget this is spirtual warfare.

God bless you on your recovery
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Deception - 07/08/11 06:37 PM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
Thanks, Schtoop. Ive taken some heat here over the last 24 hours for some actions Ive taken. But as my sole source of therapy, I tell the truth so I have to take whatever is kicked back.

I do appreciate someone seeing things from my perspective.

mss

You have taken heat for taking foolish, irresponsible risks with your marriage from people who really do care. And for showing a shocking, callous disregard for your W's other victim, the OMW. Stoop is simply telling you what you hear because he doesn't care. Anyone who condones what you did, does not care about you or your marriage. The others do care enough to point out that this is very reckless behavior on the part of you and your wife. What has happened is that you and your wife have been put back to Day 1 of recovery, my friend.

And I believe this is the SECOND time your wife has had some lame excuse to contact her OM again, so this is a pattern. And you also rationalized it then.

The OM is now back to top of mind with your wife. There is no way to defend such recklessness because the success of your marriage depends on your wife's absolute no contact with the OM. You are the chicken player who got hit by the car and you won't get out of the road. Just keep up that stupidity and you will soon find the affair is back on. And don't tell me you are "different" or that it won't happen to you. BULLCRAP. If you don't recognize your vulnerability you are in much greater danger and I believe that is the root of the problem. You just don't GET IT.

The posters here would be remiss if they didn't point out the dangerous game you play. It's real easy for posters who don't care to tell you what you want to hear, but its much harder to tell you what you need to hear. Keep that in mind.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Deception - 07/08/11 06:39 PM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
I get that Ive gone against best judgement of Dr Harley and sent my wife to see her former lover. I did it for what I felt are the best reasons.

Spoken by the LEAST objective person on this thread.
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 07/08/11 07:03 PM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
. Theres a clarity I have not seen in her ever. She let this man used her weaknesses for years to his advantage and she has little to show for it. Its demoralization on top of demoralization. .

Why? Why be demoralised? What is the benifet of that? What was the attraction to it? Does she want to be controlled?

There are questions I would be asking, and if she said she wanted you to control her, I would want to run for the hills. Thats like "I can't help myself, I am so weak, I can't be held responsible"

Those relationships never seem to turn out well, just ask the big bad control freak insecure dude who has the poor little dainty princess child bride how it ended, or how they grew up. One or the other has to have happened.
For me, and as I imagine for you also, I would rather choose the humility of beliveing I did not know rather than acting like I did, and asking the questions.

She is not an innocent little flower, and neither are you the Knight in Shining armor. None of us are, those are just illusions and fantasys.

Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Its up to each of us to maintain our own heart, time for your WW to do some of her own. Don't worry, shes worth it.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 07/08/11 07:09 PM
I really tried not to get involved in this, folks. I really did. But not for the first time am I going to point out that BSs in the painful days of recovery remind me of the speech in 1776 made by Ben Franklin when he says they're trying to get something off the ground, "half compromised, half bastardized", and the most important thing is to attend to the primary goal. EAOTP!

MSS is not concealing from OMW the facts/details of the affair - she KNOWS them. SHE DISCOVERED THEM. MSS's secretiveness is specific to the financial details of the repayment existance/plan/schedule.

MSS, you do as you think is best in that matter. (I would also suggest that you concentrate, both IRL and on this thread, from hereon out on the recovery efforts you and your wife will be involved in.)

(I now await the usual dung flung in my general direction.)
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 07/08/11 07:12 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Spoken by the LEAST objective person on this thread.

But isn't that the way they all are? I admit that I was at times, we can't see the forest through the trees?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Deception - 07/08/11 07:20 PM
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
MSS is not concealing from OMW the facts/details of the affair - she KNOWS them. SHE DISCOVERED THEM. MSS's secretiveness is specific to the financial details of the repayment existance/plan/schedule.

The issue is that he is concealing THIS MEETING with the OMW. That is the point. No contact has BEEN BROKEN. Since her WH, Mike and his wife don't have the good sense to avoid contact, she very much needs to know about any continued contact so she can protect herself FROM THEM.

I am hoping that someone in this whole sordid mess has some sense and can prevent these people from coming up with other such "good reasons" for broken contact.

The OMW very much needs to know about that no contact has been BROKEN.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Deception - 07/08/11 07:22 PM
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Spoken by the LEAST objective person on this thread.

But isn't that the way they all are? I admit that I was at times, we can't see the forest through the trees?

Absolutely. They are always the least objective and that is where the rest of us can help the most. And not by telling them what they WANT to hear, but by telling them what they NEED to hear. That is true support.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/08/11 07:30 PM
Whew! I only did what I thought was best for my family. I cannot do whats best for OM's family. He was pretty set on ruining as many families as he could taking my wife with him en route. I caught a break on Mother's Day and subsequent breaks when you fine folks helped me through the worst of the first several weeks helping me to stop the AO'ing and perhaps leaving my family when they needed me the most.

Not a perfect science, this infidelity recovery.
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 07/08/11 07:41 PM
Well we are all gonna pile on here NG, not only is allowing contact a bad idea, but money, allowing it because of buying back some dignity? Some things are just not worth the filthy lucre.

I use to have people approach me for loans, and I would give them the money, and tell them not to worry about it, the ones that returned the money, I knew were responsible for themselves, the ones who dodged me and made excuses, well I bought thier pride for X # $. But that was just with small loans to people I knew.

If your WW is feeling so low about herself, that somehow getting back money from this POS makes her feel better about it all, there are still rocks to turn over there.

Please get your W to see someone about her self esteem issues, and continue on a plan of recovery, but don't let it be a hiding your head in the sand plan. I will be praying that you will do this MSS, and I believe you can, but not without some mind altering cattle prods being swung your way and up both your behinds.

But its worth it.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Deception - 07/08/11 07:56 PM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
Whew! I only did what I thought was best for my family. I cannot do whats best for OM's family. He was pretty set on ruining as many families as he could taking my wife with him en route. I caught a break on Mother's Day and subsequent breaks when you fine folks helped me through the worst of the first several weeks helping me to stop the AO'ing and perhaps leaving my family when they needed me the most.

Not a perfect science, this infidelity recovery.

Oh no, continued contact with an affair partner is NOT best for your family or anyone else. This is why I point out that you are not objective. If your judgement is telling you that resumed contact is "best for your family" I would assert you have very poor judgment and need more help, not less.

Secondly, you and the OMW should be allied so you can prevent a repeat. Smple common decency requires that you WARN her that she is in danger. Wouldn't you want the same courtesy? And in your situation it is even more imperative that she know since all 3 of you have such poor judgement. You are ALL dangerous.

Saying this is not "perfect science" is a very poor excuse for such reckless behavior. It is not an appropriate reason to take foolish risks with your marriage.
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 07/08/11 08:19 PM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
Whew! I only did what I thought was best for my family. I cannot do whats best for OM's family.


Not a perfect science, this infidelity recovery.

In the end its about what is right, that is whats best for your family, and for everyone, you, WW ,all considered.

Money is not as important as your wifes self worth, and money can't buy back what was really lost. Money is discussed in the bible in great detail, because of the confusion of its use and value before God. I have felt that it is described as raw power, mothers milk as such, concentrated power, a root of power and control. It is important to realize, that is is not love, or has much to do with love, unless used correctly, for loving purpose. Its in scripture that, the "love" of money, is the root of all evil, not money, the love of it, because its the love of its power and manipulation. Its use of it is normal and expected, and the planning of use of money is also wise and expected, but loving money just for the power of it? Well you you get my drift, money is just a symbol.

I love the scripture where Christ says, "Give to ceasar that is ceasars", talking about money, and even the one person who produced the coin out of his pocket, who was a holy man, and was not supposed to carry around a graven image. Money can be very tricky Mike, as well as the power we attach to it.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/08/11 11:12 PM
The money was earned by my wife well before OM entered our world. It was safely invested until we moved into his investment which he personally guaranteed both me and his lover on numerous occasions knowing the nature of the investment. Her earnings. Her money. Her self respect. She got as much of it back as she could.
Posted By: Cameo2 Re: Deception - 07/09/11 02:22 AM
Mike,
Speaking as a FWW, this is eventually going to backfire on you. While she may feel victorious right now, when your wife's anger dies down and she begins to truly reflect on what she has done and accept her guilt in it, she is going to see this as having prostituted herself. And since you allowed it, instead of feeling that you loved her more than anything, more than any amount of money, she's going to feel that you pimped her. I'm afraid you just made your recovery even harder.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 07/09/11 02:44 AM
[Linked Image from ironicsurrealism.com]

Anyone else?
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 07/09/11 02:58 AM
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
[Linked Image from ironicsurrealism.com]

Anyone else?

Yes, I'll take a swing at the dead horse (again)... It's the money thing... I don't get why it's so important to risk losing everything again...
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 07/09/11 03:39 AM
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
[Linked Image from ironicsurrealism.com]

Anyone else?

Nah Im done. I'm not condemning Mike, I understand where he is coming from, its just that I want to prepare him for future revelations that might come up. After all, he has a long road still ahead of him and his wife.

Count the blessings every day Mike, don't forget to find the value in the chance you both have, as you put this in the past. I know you love your wife, and want to build her up and protect her. Praying for you guys, you can beat this, I believe you will.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/09/11 01:39 PM
Originally Posted by Cameo2
Mike,
Speaking as a FWW, this is eventually going to backfire on you. While she may feel victorious right now, when your wife's anger dies down and she begins to truly reflect on what she has done and accept her guilt in it, she is going to see this as having prostituted herself. And since you allowed it, instead of feeling that you loved her more than anything, more than any amount of money, she's going to feel that you pimped her. I'm afraid you just made your recovery even harder.

FWW said this upon dday and reflection of 5 or so years with OM. After the initial "relationship" ended and complacency set in which she says was the last 3 or 4 years, she now sees herself as a piece of meat he used. This was a sorry excuse of a woman, but one I love and one Im going to help rehab her pysche and remove this chapter. A handful of nice outfits and some jewelry (since hocked for cash by her), a whole bunch of nice meals, and a paltry sum of money each week kept her in his midst. It didnt build a career or nest egg for her, nor did he make any long term commitment to her such as leaving his spouse, so yes we agreed she acted as his prostitute. His side action. This is the burden she'll have to live with. As will I.

We're not very proud of ourselves.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/09/11 01:58 PM
Originally Posted by celticvoyager
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
[Linked Image from ironicsurrealism.com]

Anyone else?

Yes, I'll take a swing at the dead horse (again)... It's the money thing... I don't get why it's so important to risk losing everything again...


Et tu, CV? Its all the money in the world to us now. Its a point she and I had to make. It was calculated after 8-9 weeks in to our recovery that she go after this money. Im living with a woman who put herself thru a bad situation and wanted out for a while. It may be tough to believe this, but money and lack of desire to better herself and a fairly cushy existence kept her in this situation. This is the belief I take with me everyday. Love and/or affection was gone a while ago. Sad for me to accept this. But I do.

Im spending my time looking at everyday's upside. What can I do improve me and more importantly my wifes self image which took a beating? Getting this money secured was a big thing towards this.

Its made her a stronger person, in my opinion. If it backfires in 2 week, 2 months or 2 years, I will be on here saying you all told me so.

Im not worried, in fact, I see a better woman next me because of securing what was hers.

I killed last weekend with a crappy attitude and I will not destroy this weekend too.

I promised her last night the stuff on the thread here wouldnt get me down, but it has. I have a trust with her.

Have a good weekend all.

Mike

Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/14/11 11:11 AM
Im leaving.

Cannot handle the past. Cannot and will not just put what she did in the back of my head.

Her ability and willingness to deceive me and the children for such a long a time has ruin my ability to function in life.

I gave my best attempt and she was as sorry as any philandering spouse looking to save her marriage would be.

But, my jealously and anger and probably a touch of spite is overwhelming me. I have not been able to work or focus on much of anything else.

I spent an hour telling her that I cannot go on not speaking about the what she did. Im not following the MB rules simply because they require me to do things that Im unable to do. I ripped her apart and told her if she expect me not want to know more about 7 years of her being in love with another man then shes now deceiving herself. I do believe she wants nothing to do with him. THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE. The issue is forgiveness and I am having big trouble giving that.

Im telling the children tonight.

Sorry. I just cannot be in love with someone who has the ability to hurt me and the kids so callously.

I tried.

mss

Posted By: chickadee1 Re: Deception - 07/14/11 11:31 AM
mike

i am sorry you are felling this way today. i think we all have those day, i had one and yesterdau and nightmares last night and i am 4 mos in. you are a month from having the bus hit you, it takes time.

please call the harleys before you do anything, you have given it this much of a shot why not try it. i have asked you before, you have nothing to lose, you feel like you have lost it already.

i know one you mind it set you may not change but try it, she has worked hard and so have you.

come on mike
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/14/11 12:56 PM
Originally Posted by chickadee1
please call the harleys before you do anything, you have given it this much of a shot why not try it. i have asked you before, you have nothing to lose, you feel like you have lost it already.

I dont have the money to spend on the harleys right now otherwise i would have done it weeks ago. We are going to MC next week to work on some stuff and so we'll see how that goes.

She wrote me a letter yesterday (her first) after I gave her a old fashioned AO the night before where I told her Im abandoning this thread despite the genuine good advice and well meaning thoughts, the MB process is failing me and Im failing it. The letter rehashed some of the stuff she said before and offered little revelations.

So, in review, I allow FWW to break the NC rule last week and I unleashed a nasty AO 2 nights ago. So my ability to abide by MB basic laws is low.

She is very desperate to keep me here, I will say that.

Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 07/14/11 01:37 PM
I allow FWW to break the NC rule last week and I unleashed a nasty AO 2 nights ago. So my ability to abide by MB basic laws is low....I'm leaving.

An analogy?

So, I broke the traffic laws last week and received a $700 speeding ticket. My ability to abide by the local traffic ordinances is low. I've decided to turn in my license, donate my car, and burn the garage to the ground.

In both cases I would prescribe......moderation.

You and I are so much alike, MSS, it's scary. I take that back - you have demonstrated much more understanding and forbearance than I did, or in your circumstance, ever could.

SIX MONTHS! Do NOT make any life-changing decisions for six months after a d-day. You've heard that before, right? There's a reason for the longevity of that advice, and it's because it has been shown to be valuable.

Who are you most mad at RIGHT NOW? It appears that the target of your anger is less your FWW than it is yourself, for having a lapse in judgment and suffering the predictable negative consequences. Okay, here's what you do:

Trust us! Trust the program!

You screwed up. I got it. Don't do it again.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/14/11 02:48 PM
NG-Do you have these analogies saved on your computer or you just come up with them? I actually gave 90 days to figure out my direction which I also failed to abide by. Im a weakened person.

I have always said its me not her. Its cliche, but in this case its me. In one of my AO-like texts the other day, I told her I should take the blame for all of this for 1) not seeing the A when many others speculated for years, and 2) not protecting her like a Husband is supposed to. If I take the blame, maybe I can redirect my anger at me, as you said.

We went to a concert last night with friends and she spent most of it crying. Every song seemingly referred in some way to our situation. She begged me to forgive her and I sat mostly moping.

Her note she wrote yesterday was a nice thing, but shes not very open about her feelings and maybe its connected to her ability to stay in the A as she did. Im not a psychologist so im just playing one here.

OK, Ive been told here before it'll need min 6 months to get some of the fog lifted in my head. I'll give it go.

My anger at her is not lessening. Maybe I need those 6 months.

Moderation is something Im working on. Ive lost 15 pounds and now im using 'moderation' to keep it off. Moderation, however, doesnt sufficiently punish her and for some reason I want to punish her as if almost losing all that which holds dear wasnt enough punishment, my 9 week crappy attitude doesnt seem enough punishment, her throwing herself at me physically as part of just compensation can be contrued as punishment, that I can agree with, but its not really.

Her having to live with her failures is enough punishment? Not very satisfying.
Posted By: karmasrose Re: Deception - 07/14/11 03:14 PM
You really should not leave your house if you are deadset on a change. She should be the one to leave, because if you are the one to do so, it can be seen as abandonment and you will end up paying a ton in the long run for it.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 07/14/11 03:28 PM
Friend, here's infidelity secret #1:

You cannot effectively punish her.

Ever since Western civilization took away betrayed husbands' rights to shave, brand, and whip cheating wives (God, I miss the good old days!), our options have been basically limited to leaving/divorcing them, or somehow getting past the pain and moving on with them. Anything else just works toward facilitating or defeating those two options.

Here's infidelity secret #2:

Trying to punish her brings you more pain.

Since you can't do a decent job of it (More heat on the branding iron, dammit!), you develop a sense of frustration that your mind/body converts to additional anger. This in turn means you want even more to exact punishment, and on, and on......

I know I'm waaaaaaay out here in cyberland, but I am going to yield to my distressing habit of trying to interpret someone's actions and figuring out the root cause.

I THINK you do not want to be the initiator of a marital dissolution action. (That is good.) I also think at some level you would welcome such an action happening, and are driven on occasion to give her cause to be the initiator. (Not so good.)

Give it the six months, amigo. Cut down on your AOs, DJs, and expressions of anger. Yell at US, if you want, we can deal with it. Talk to your religious leader. If you aren't active in any faith, this might not be a terrible time to check in. I mentioned that you and I are very much alike. I almost committed major acts of mayhem on the day after my discovery. I'd like to think that I made the correct decision to refrain.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/14/11 03:42 PM
Yes, yes, yes. Sir, you are good.

In a whacked out way, I am trying to get her to say, "screw this, Im otta here". You are amazing at this. I have said in my now classic text based AO yesterday, that I wonder how much of my torture will she take. Hows that for a subtle hint that SHE should take the steps to towards separation?

The difference I see, NG, is I too went bezerk the day of and after and subsequent weeks of dday. I though made a commitment to myself, FWW, and you guys to stop well over a month ago. And I was doing fairly well swallowing the poop and holding it down. But, I had a revelation last week that she has been so unfair to me and our kids for a long time, why, then do I need to follow this code of silence?

For fairness sake, I want to know more about the A, darn it. She lived it, made us live with it by making OM our friend, and lived this SSL almost destroying what we have here. I HAVE TO FAIR TO HER?

This dainty flower of a beaten women should be able to handle a little humiliation taking some of my torture. She sort of doled it out to me for a long time.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/14/11 04:03 PM
I thought Id write my FWW letter she wrote me yesterday after my AO on Skype (no less) Tuesday night and subsequent text based AOs where I was not nice:

"You want to know the old me! Well the old me wasnt happy for a very long time. I guess my emotional needs werent met [MSS here: she;s reading HN, HN right now]. I never opened up to you. I felt life was falling apart. Our financial troubles were not getting better. We never spent time together at home. We'd eat dinner and all would split into different rooms. You went downstairs, I went to my room, and so did the kids. I ask you to go out and you always wanted to stay home. I know we didnt have the $ but something small out would have been great.

I know its not a reason to do what I did but "A" dont start without a reason. (OM family) were friends- I guess he provided things to me that I didnt get at home. It was an escape. It took a long time for me to finally "be" with him. Then it just got comfortable. I was self-centered. I felt guilty everytime-even though I continued it.

I guess he made me happy NOT PHYSICALLY (all the time) but emotionally if that meant buying me stuff. Maybe I used him for the materialistic stuff. I got caught up in it.

I worked with him which made the years go by. All I can say is that Im so glad Im not babysitting anymore. The pressure of going there and seeing him I hated. So why did I continue and stay and do the things I did? I dont know.

To me it was collecting a paycheck. I grew out of my feeling for him - as you know- and didnt want to babysit, stop Sunday dinners, etc. Thats why I can turn off my feelings like Im doing.

Im sorry I hurt you and the kids. I want to stay w/my family b/c thats important to me and where I belong, I realize that now. Im a new person or trying to be. Confident, strong, not negative. I want to be happy again. Hope there will light at the end of the dark tunnel."
---

This is really the extent of the openness and honesty I get from FWW. I can articulate my feelings on a whole other level and she cannot.

Truth, and I told her this, I find this to be a pile a BS. This explanation if you want to call it that is lame. I may have to be resigned to this if I want to move with our life. Does anyone see how within a 7 year A, shes leaving some stuff out?

I have apologized for my AOs as I always do.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Deception - 07/14/11 04:08 PM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
This is really the extent of the openness and honesty I get from FWW. I can articulate my feelings on a whole other level and she cannot.

Truth, and I told her this, I find this to be a pile a BS. This explanation if you want to call it that is lame. I may have to be resigned to this if I want to move with our life. Does anyone see how within a 7 year A, shes leaving some stuff out?

I have apologized for my AOs as I always do.

Of course she is leaving some stuff out, but that does not make what she wrote "BS". It makes it incomplete.

It takes TIME for the wayward to regain their focus on reality. Especially after a 7 year fantasy.

What is your goal?

Posted By: Pepperband Re: Deception - 07/14/11 04:10 PM
Quote
DDay 5/8/11

Just over 3 months into this .... as a reminder.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Deception - 07/14/11 04:17 PM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
Im a weakened person.

Advice:

Stop making big major decisions, or making grandiose announcements, or altering your MB Plans while you are emotionally upset/aroused/triggered/provoked ..... etc.

The purpose of having MB Plans is to set your stable course in spite of your emotional roller coaster ride.

We do understand the ride.
We have lived it ourselves.

Pay attention.
Stop reacting.
Use your MB Plans instead.

Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/14/11 04:20 PM
I know. Time. I havent given enough of it.

This story she writes makes her look so shallow.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Deception - 07/14/11 04:20 PM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
I know. Time. I havent given enough of it.

This story she writes makes her look so shallow.

You don't look particularly deep at times either.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Deception - 07/14/11 04:21 PM
"Ouch", right?
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Deception - 07/14/11 04:24 PM
The emotional roller coaster is real.
The ups and downs, twists and turns, rises and dips are nauseating.

rcoaster

You are not even close to leveling off.
Neither is your WIFE.

Which is why there are MB PLANS, not MB emotional suggestions.



Posted By: Pepperband Re: Deception - 07/14/11 04:29 PM
You need to commit to the MB PLANS. Or don't.
Later, once you have worked the PLANS for all you're worth, you may (or may not) decide to commit to your wife/marriage.

If you're going to make day-by-day emotional decisions without working the MB Plans, bail out now, just do it.
Don't waste our time.

You have the "opt-out option", but you can't do MB Plans and opt-out simultaneously without driving yourself, your wife, and us nutZZZZZ.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/14/11 04:37 PM
i gave the MB concepts 8 weeks and one big thing is to get all the info one needs out about the A and it shouldnt be discussed further.

I cannot stop thinking about the Affair. I need more info and when i ask I get nuts and that again breaks a MB code of AOing and DJing and what have you.

I get that the premises of MB are solid, just they dont work for me 8-9 weeks post dday.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Deception - 07/14/11 04:41 PM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
i gave the MB concepts 8 weeks and one big thing is to get all the info one needs out about the A and it shouldnt be discussed further.

I cannot stop thinking about the Affair. I need more info and when i ask I get nuts and that again breaks a MB code of AOing and DJing and what have you.

I get that the premises of MB are solid, just they dont work for me 8-9 weeks post dday.

What do you want from us?
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/14/11 04:46 PM
One should step up the love and find the EN the WS was getting elsewhere. I find the EN she was getting elsewhere to be stuff I have little interest in providing. Designer clothing, expensive lunches, jewelry. None of which I ever got for her and she was OK for 8 years of our marriage, not mentioning one word of it. Prince Charming comes along gets her stuff and she gives him her body?

If it was companionship I didnt provide, OK, say somehting I would have stepped up. I understand financial support is something I was weak on providing and thats a certainly an EN, but remember we are in a world where a lot of families especially in my area have 2 incomes coming in. Should was content making a fraction what she could have in a real job so she can keep her easy, cushy job with OM.

Posted By: Pepperband Re: Deception - 07/14/11 04:47 PM
What do you want from us?
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/14/11 04:53 PM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
What do you want from us?

Nothing really.

I was walking on the bridge and someone convinced not to jump. Its the same stuff Ive wanted and got since day 1.

I'll try to get back into the MB process to the best of my ability. Ive had another bad stretch but concensus is it takes 6 months for these to happen less often.

So, I wanted someone to tell me to hang in there and I'll do it.

Evidently, Im not a deep as Id like to think I am.

mss
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Deception - 07/14/11 04:53 PM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
i gave the MB concepts 8 weeks and one big thing is to get all the info one needs out about the A and it shouldnt be discussed further.

I cannot stop thinking about the Affair. I need more info and when i ask I get nuts and that again breaks a MB code of AOing and DJing and what have you.

I get that the premises of MB are solid, just they dont work for me 8-9 weeks post dday.

WRONG!

You did not follow the MB concepts!

Step #1 ~ No Contact under any circumstances.

Your WW has broken this cardinal rule twice now (the latest very recently) while you rationalized it away. And NC continues to broken as long as you are under a payment plan with OM for the next 18 mos.

The rest of it doesn't work without Step #1.

Sorry, I know I said I was moving on but I can't let you get away with "I have been trying the MB plans for xxx and it's not working..." Not even close...
Posted By: LuvsDavid Re: Deception - 07/14/11 05:00 PM
Welcome back SusieQ BTW.
Mike You are frustrated because u keep getting triggered. In every post u write you try to explain away how "helpless"she was because YOU want to believe that. That is something you have to stop doing and look at the facts. Its almost like you are trickle truthing yourself.

Don't know if that made sense but hope u got it.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/14/11 05:00 PM
SusieQ,

That too. My continued AO'ng and failure to keep the A part of the past AND me allowing the NC part to happen and perpetuate for the next year and half (despite my contention that we'll have zero content except to cash checks) make me not so good at following the MB process.

How many rules can one break?

Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/14/11 05:05 PM
I only said she was weak and lacked self esteen. Never said she was helpless. She knew what she was doing. Knew it was bad. But she was too weak and lacked courage to walk away.

Helpless not. It was fun and exciting for a long time. A good looking guy entertaining her in ways her H wasnt. No one forced her into his car or bed. Helpless, not something I think I said.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Deception - 07/14/11 05:24 PM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
Originally Posted by Pepperband
What do you want from us?

Nothing really.

smirk


Quote
So, I wanted someone to tell me to hang in there and I'll do it.

Really?


Quote
Evidently, Im not a deep as Id like to think I am.

You're on a crazy emotional roller coaster ride, and that's just not conducive to deep, scholarly thoughts.
Posted By: LuvsDavid Re: Deception - 07/14/11 05:29 PM
Sorry Mike. I apologize. You may not have said it that way but that is what I was getting out of several posts. I could just have read them from the wrong perspective.
I hope you will stick it out for awhile longer. Im 7months in now and just starting to be able to step back and look at this from above instead of inside.
Posted By: reading Re: Deception - 07/14/11 05:31 PM
She didn't give her body cause she got prizes worth money.

She did it cause he sweet talked her (hmmmmm....admiration perhaps?)

and also cause her boundaries of spending time alone with a man not her hubby allowed her to cross lines with him. He might have taken her hand and pulled her over the boundary but she allowed him to.

If he stops all contact with him, you can work on making extraordinary precautions to your marriage so she is not able to betray you. She needs to stop contact with him and agree to the precautions.

She might not stop contact with him. That is her choice and then you decide what to do with your marriage. YK?

Yes, she betrayed you for years. Yes, she is flawed as a wife. Yes, this is tough stuff. You didn't deserve it but you are forced to deal with it. Sucks.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 07/14/11 06:02 PM
Hi Mike,
I'm just getting caught up on your thread. A couple of comments, if I may:
1. NC has not been established, correct? Until NC is established you will be triggered, which delays healing.

2. You feel that your questions regarding the A have not all been answered. Ask the questions. Get the answers. Hold your temper and thank your WW for honestly answering your questions. Only then will you be able to process the A with a feeling that you have the complete picture. Then you need to stop with the punishment that you're blindsiding your WW with.

3. Your D-Day was just a few months ago. That puts you in the equivalent of Grade 1 in the School of Healing from Marital Infidelity. You've got a long way to go, friend. Would you have dropped out of grade school because you didn't understand calculus? No, because it wasn't time for you to learn calculus. You haven't gotten to that stage yet! So stop making decisions prematurely! It isn't time for you to make decisions yet - you've got to progress through more 'grades' before you will be in that position. Which, of course, brings us back to: TIME. Enough hasn't passed yet.

I know you're venting when you get on here and announce that you're bailing, that it's too much. We get that. We were there. Understand one thing: IMO, you want to get away, not from your WW, but from the pain she caused. Friend, the pain will follow you. Only TIME and recovery is going to help ease that.

You need to pick that rope back up and keep pulling. Work the MB program like it's your lifeline, because it is.
Posted By: Tanam Re: Deception - 07/14/11 06:39 PM
Mike

I know exactly what you are feeling, my WH played me for 6 years, 1 in 'the affair' 5 in Just good friends, which I always hated but didn't have the strength to end till Xmas when I told him he could have me or her, I really didn't care but wasn't prepared to have 3 in my marriage any more.

Ginge was my friend.........how the F**K could she do this etc etc etc.

And then it came out that he was still shaggin her albeit rarely but even so.....

Yes it's crap, yes it hurts, yes I still want to walk away and begin all over.

I have my alternative life all planned, all there, the second I get a whiff of any contact.....I am gone.

That is what gets me through. It's about my self worth.

Yes he was in a similar situation to your wife, he really didn't want most of it, but was too spineless to get out of it, in case she cut up rough with her suicide threats. Not my problem.

I have no sense that they are still in contact, no intel either.

Unlike you I perhaps have more than enough mind movies, I really have enough details. For a long time I wanted the answer to the WHY question...........now I get it, it was BECAUSE.

It was all about him, not about us and it took him to a dark place.

Still have times I am angry, but such a relief not to have arguments that are about other things than her.

Much of the time I focus on today, yesterday was and I can't change that, tomorrow will be.

It's not always easy, some days I still think walking would be an option.

He too does not talk, thats hard when I want to explore stuff but he simply doesn't have the emotional intelligence, I am so envious of the wives of men on this board who can talk about feelings stuff........but we get what we get.

Listen to the vets, keep your taker in check.

I don't think BTW that you actually want more details, I think you like I was are stuck on the WHY and HOW COULD YOU questions and the reality is that it was and this is now.

Find something to smile about, relax and let her do some of the work, from what you have said, she is trying really hard.

And again, I do know exactly how you feel, if you weren't in the US I might think you were Ginge's H!!!

Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/14/11 07:07 PM
Originally Posted by reading
She didn't give her body cause she got prizes worth money.

She did it cause he sweet talked her (hmmmmm....admiration perhaps?)

and also cause her boundaries of spending time alone with a man not her hubby allowed her to cross lines with him. He might have taken her hand and pulled her over the boundary but she allowed him to.

If he stops all contact with him, you can work on making extraordinary precautions to your marriage so she is not able to betray you. She needs to stop contact with him and agree to the precautions.

She might not stop contact with him. That is her choice and then you decide what to do with your marriage. YK?

Yes, she betrayed you for years. Yes, she is flawed as a wife. Yes, this is tough stuff. You didn't deserve it but you are forced to deal with it. Sucks.

All true cept dont think theres any contact. Im very confident in this. Precautions that I and my FWW put in place assure this as much as possible. Yes, I will have to deal with this for life.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/14/11 07:09 PM
Tanam:

Everything you said is dead-on correct.

Scary.

Good luck to both of us.

Mike
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/14/11 07:11 PM
And MB, you are legend on this board for good reason.

In my apology today for yesterdays AOs, I did say to her time will be needed. She, again, for the umpteenth time said she willing wait the time and understands my anger.

She's not the ogre I describe. Just mad as heck at her.

mike
Posted By: LuvsDavid Re: Deception - 07/14/11 07:20 PM
We understand the anger. Stick it out, it will get better.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 07/14/11 08:27 PM
Originally Posted by LuvsDavid
We understand the anger. Stick it out, it will get better.
ITA. I understand how angry you are right now, Mike. We all do. And I'm telling you to do what it takes to cut out those AO's for a few reasons. One is that it doesn't help your healing. The other is that the day is going to come when you look back at these terrible days from a place of recovery. I don't want you to look back and regret your actions. I know this from experience. I don't even want to get into some of what I said and did in the days after D-Day. frown I have those memories of my terrible behavior in my head for the rest of my life. It stands out in stark relief from the remorse, humility and regret my H displayed when I acted out physically and verbally. I am so ashamed of my actions. I don't want you to be in the same place.
Posted By: Deacon_Blues Re: Deception - 07/14/11 10:52 PM
Quote
I dont have the money to spend on the harleys right now otherwise i would have done it weeks ago. We are going to MC next week to work on some stuff and so we'll see how that goes.
Is it more affordable to move out and support two households? And didn't you just get a check? What better thing to use that money on than your marriage? I find it hard to believe that you truly can't afford it, more than you don't prioritize it. The vets on here are telling you it's your best move yet you won't do it.

Should you decide to not stick it out long term you would be well within your rights. But it would be a pity to make that decision without trying every available avenue before reaching that point.
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 07/14/11 11:56 PM
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
SIX MONTHS! Do NOT make any life-changing decisions for six months after a d-day. You've heard that before, right? There's a reason for the longevity of that advice, and it's because it has been shown to be valuable.

Who are you most mad at RIGHT NOW? It appears that the target of your anger is less your FWW than it is yourself, for having a lapse in judgment and suffering the predictable negative consequences. Okay, here's what you do:

Trust us! Trust the program!

You screwed up. I got it. Don't do it again.

You have set YOUR recovery clock back to zero. In your mans mindset, there is really no way to be absolutly sure that there will be no more contact, or just compensation, unless you buried the POSOM. Get used to it, thems the facts about that.

EXTRA-ORDINARY Precautions, to protect both of you. Extra, meaning more than ordinary precaution. Yep the human mind and heart is that deep. We all knew what you were doing and why, because you can't believe people need that kind of crap, that we can rise above, oh thats just paranoid, we are different than that. But we are not that different M after all.

Have you ever worked with addiction? Do you know how many addicts hate what they are doing, but are still in bondage to it, and draw to it? The only difference is the accual disabiling chemical fog addicts afford themselves occasionally, then the truth comes back again, and they hide again, and the cycle continues. Help starts when they stop the cycle, but it takes a lot of work and time to unravel the stuff that was in thier heads, that drew them in. But it CAN be done, in accountability and abstinance. They must be hand in hand.

You and your wife have both been victims. You are not different from many others on this board. Now that you feel the frustration anew, you feel its hopeless, and that it can't be changed. I get that, but I know you have within you a heart of forgiveness, and an understanding that people can change, once they see they need to. Give this those 6 months and work with that other failure of the human race you have so much invested in, so she can see what the love from a man with strength of conviction is. Your not finished yet. You have real nuts, not like the OM, but he wishes he did.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Deception - 07/15/11 12:13 AM
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
You and your wife have both been victims.

Explain to me how his wife is currently a victim. I'm evidently not up to speed on this. Thanks.
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 07/15/11 12:24 AM
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Understand one thing: IMO, you want to get away, not from your WW, but from the pain she caused. Friend, the pain will follow you. Only TIME and recovery is going to help ease that.

You need to pick that rope back up and keep pulling. Work the MB program like it's your lifeline, because it is.

Absolutly true.


Also I had to watch my very messed up addicted WW and put up with her painful crap for years, and oh yes, I am getting my head examined thank you.

But during the times of false recoveries and shattered hopes, there was allways part of me that knew I did not deserve this, and I should bail, but I had nobody like the people here to guide me, who would have helped me do what I needed when it came to that.

You have that resource here. Use it.
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 07/15/11 12:40 AM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
You and your wife have both been victims.

Explain to me how his wife is currently a victim. I'm evidently not up to speed on this. Thanks.

Thats easy, she listened to herself, she screwed herself over for years, she listened to her own counsel, based on feelings, instead of Gods counsel based on integrity and life. If MSS left her, she had nobody to blame but herself, and the BS she was willing to buy into and beleive.

She is her own victim, and when she gets angry at herself for that, and gets accountable, maybe, just maybe, she might grow that conscience in time.

But then like many, she could blame the internet or the social moreys of the day or someone down the street or her BH, beacuse she has a lot of work to do, and it won't be easy. Which is WHY I state get the Harleys in to call the recovery, because she will have to dig deep. MSS might just not feel like he wants to watch her, and she might not understand she will have to be watched for a long time.

But in the end she lost out on years where thier marriage could have been a shining example, and became part of the team to stick a hot-poker in her BHs heart. She was a sucker and a victim in my book.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 07/15/11 12:49 AM
My last post was about 11:42am today. I just got back on.

THERE WERE 33 POSTS ON YOUR THREAD! THIRTY-EFFING-THREE !

You've now got Tanam, SusieQ (back), Pep, reading, CP, MB, and LuvsDavid all preaching the same thing: STOP EXPECTING THIS TO HEAL OVERNIGHT!

There are brilliant insights within the posts, (with one clunker: "And MB, you are legend on this board for good reason." Aw, jeez, does she have to hear herself called a legend?) and they ALL center on that concept of time augmented by a planned program, carefully followed, as the way out of your hole. And they come from folks who were there. Do you think we might have a clue, among us if not individually?

Go hug your wife, kiss your kids, get a decent night's sleep, and we'll dive back in tomorrow morning.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 07/15/11 01:12 AM
Quote
(with one clunker: "And MB, you are legend on this board for good reason." Aw, jeez, does she have to hear herself called a legend?)

Shaddup, NG
rotflmao
Posted By: Surfer88 Re: Deception - 07/15/11 01:39 AM
High five.

(Seinfeld.)
Posted By: Surfer88 Re: Deception - 07/15/11 01:47 AM
Mike,

How's about you wake up on Friday with NG and his party! Eek! smile

C'mon now...you've even got random ME here again, for Pete's sake. Give it another day.

Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/15/11 02:35 AM
Thanks everyone. Temporary insanity took over for the last couple of days. I reset the recovery clock. I apologized for what Ive said and really what I wrote her was brutal so I said sorry for that too.

The bottom line is time. Everyone has said here and its the only thing I can say to her. I need a lot more.

She said she can wait and shes not going anywhere. And she still feels like she deserves whatever she gets. I asked her not to say that again.

Been a rough few days. She actually had a really bad headache today and tonight and got sick so nothing going good right now.

We start tomorrow.

Good night.



Posted By: Tanam Re: Deception - 07/15/11 09:50 AM
I don't think you really want out of this, I think it makes more sense that you are so sore that it's hard to move.

It will hit you in waves for a good while yet, the key really is to stick it here not on her. Seems she is feeling pretty rough anyway, she will have to live with this forever too.

I know my WH is still struggling with the enormity of lying to me for 1/4 of our marriage and is doing the best he can to make things right. My side of the fence is clean and so I can be generous and gentle. When I get angry I use the anger......I ride so have several whips....I whip the bed, it makes a great noise, gets me physically tired and I can always visualise which is fun!!

Be gentle with each other for a while, it pays benefits. No Relationship talk, no blaming, just enjoy each other.

Cut both of you a little slack.......time hun time

Blessings
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Deception - 07/15/11 12:23 PM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
Im leaving.

Cannot handle the past. Cannot and will not just put what she did in the back of my head.

Her ability and willingness to deceive me and the children for such a long a time has ruin my ability to function in life.

I gave my best attempt and she was as sorry as any philandering spouse looking to save her marriage would be.

But, my jealously and anger and probably a touch of spite is overwhelming me. I have not been able to work or focus on much of anything else.

I spent an hour telling her that I cannot go on not speaking about the what she did. Im not following the MB rules simply because they require me to do things that Im unable to do. I ripped her apart and told her if she expect me not want to know more about 7 years of her being in love with another man then shes now deceiving herself. I do believe she wants nothing to do with him. THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE. The issue is forgiveness and I am having big trouble giving that.

Im telling the children tonight.

Sorry. I just cannot be in love with someone who has the ability to hurt me and the kids so callously.

I tried.

mss

They say it's best to wait six months before a BS makes any important decisions because their in so much mental termoil.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Deception - 07/15/11 12:32 PM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
Originally Posted by chickadee1
please call the harleys before you do anything, you have given it this much of a shot why not try it. i have asked you before, you have nothing to lose, you feel like you have lost it already.

I dont have the money to spend on the harleys right now otherwise i would have done it weeks ago. We are going to MC next week to work on some stuff and so we'll see how that goes.

She wrote me a letter yesterday (her first) after I gave her a old fashioned AO the night before where I told her Im abandoning this thread despite the genuine good advice and well meaning thoughts, the MB process is failing me and Im failing it. The letter rehashed some of the stuff she said before and offered little revelations.

So, in review, I allow FWW to break the NC rule last week and I unleashed a nasty AO 2 nights ago. So my ability to abide by MB basic laws is low.

She is very desperate to keep me here, I will say that.

You want to speak with the Harley's
You say you don't have the money
You spend money on a MC that is not helping you
You would be better off seeing the Harley's say once a month then the num nuts counselor every week.

Then:
You let WW break NC
Why
You can't even see that how that bad decision last week is now making you say you want to be done
You expect to allow NC to be broken and not have the effect it did
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/15/11 12:58 PM
The decision last week was the best thing I did for my marriage and more importantly my wifes self image. This weeks breakdown had nothing to do with it. Nothing. I was just doing the usual mental movies and got caught up in it. I will say this and she said so in a letter to me just yesterday, that relationship ran its course years back, she cannot understand how she stuck around the last few of them other than collecting a paycheck and ease of life and dumbness.

Also, its our first visit jointly to a MC so I will hold my thought until after. I will say this, she is reading HN, HN and may be seeing the value in the Harley's method so Im not saying well never talk to him, we just need to try this guy first, on the 19th.

And, yes, Im now on the 6-month plan. Im counting on making it a lifetime plan, but 6-months must come first.

Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/15/11 02:11 PM
Originally Posted by Tanam
I don't think you really want out of this, I think it makes more sense that you are so sore that it's hard to move.

It will hit you in waves for a good while yet, the key really is to stick it here not on her. Seems she is feeling pretty rough anyway, she will have to live with this forever too.

I know my WH is still struggling with the enormity of lying to me for 1/4 of our marriage and is doing the best he can to make things right. My side of the fence is clean and so I can be generous and gentle. When I get angry I use the anger......I ride so have several whips....I whip the bed, it makes a great noise, gets me physically tired and I can always visualise which is fun!!

Be gentle with each other for a while, it pays benefits. No Relationship talk, no blaming, just enjoy each other.

Cut both of you a little slack.......time hun time

Blessings

Aside from this weeks blow out and my early AOs, i felt like I walked the high road mostly. If I stay calm, cool and enjoy life as I have NOT been doing lately, THAT may be the "punishment" Im looking for. Its an odd concept, I know, but somehow if I went to that concert and to the other things I moped thru lately and lived like it was pre-dday, she'd on one hand be much happier but it would also tell her Im beginning to be less affected by it and we can more on. Would that say to her anything? I dont know. I know shes hoping I stop spending my day moping and reliving the past, but maybe if I actually do it it would say something (maybe unsaid really) that the A was and is her's to deal with mentally and for life.

Kind of reverse psychology? "what you did is and was meaningless to me now, its yours to deal with for life, Im clean"

I do realize its both of ours to deal with but if I can manipulate my brain to think this way, I can get thru this easier?

Kind of a passive agressive, immature way to go about things?

Hey, its Friday, a few short hours from weekend. Im feeling good today. Just rolling some random ideas out there.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Deception - 07/15/11 04:12 PM
Call the Harley's radio program.
It's FREE.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 07/15/11 04:18 PM
Quote
I know shes hoping I stop spending my day moping and reliving the past, but maybe if I actually do it it would say something (maybe unsaid really) that the A was and is her's to deal with mentally and for life.

Kind of reverse psychology? "what you did is and was meaningless to me now, its yours to deal with for life, Im clean"

I do realize its both of ours to deal with but if I can manipulate my brain to think this way, I can get thru this easier?

Kind of a passive agressive, immature way to go about things?

Hey, its Friday, a few short hours from weekend. Im feeling good today. Just rolling some random ideas out there.
Nothing wrong with random ideas.

I'm sure your WW would like to see you stop moping and 'move on'. Unfortunately, it generally doesn't work that way. This is a process you're going through. You've got to incorporate this experience into your past notion of what your marriage was so that you have a true picture of your marital history. I hate to keep bringing up the 'T' word, but that's going to take Time. weightlifter

You already know that she owns her actions, and that damaging your M was a choice she consciously made. You already know that you are the innocent party in her affair. I think what you're dealing with isn't so much talking yourself into believing that, as it is just accepting what has happened. You haven't accepted it yet. You will.

Methinks you're still trying to rush the process of acceptance, Mike. You can't do that. There are ways to make the process easier, though. Be good to yourself. Savor the moments when you're at the top of the coaster. Be kind to yourself when the coaster plummets and you feel despair. Comfort yourself while you ride those moments out, and keep reminding yourself that those moments will become fewer and farther in between.

And do something fun this weekend! smile
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/15/11 04:39 PM
MB-

No, I have yet to accept this. Youre right about that. I know it comes the T word and Im going too fast.

Putting the brakes on this weekend and we will do something good. And I will lead the way with a positive attitude. Its all I can do. As I once said, I control everything. My good attitude and my bad can set the tone.

Im not a big fan of all this control, but I have it.

Have a good weekend everyone. Barring a melt down (which I just said IS NOT going to happen), I will touch base next week.

mss.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/15/11 04:40 PM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Call the Harley's radio program.
It's FREE.

First chance next week, I will. Thanks for the suggestion.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Deception - 07/15/11 04:49 PM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Call the Harley's radio program.
It's FREE.

First chance next week, I will. Thanks for the suggestion.

Click THIS LINK for instructions !!!!

Quote
First, email your questions to Joyce at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. Then, she will respond to you within a day by return email, and give you a toll-free number and specific time to call Dr. Harley directly during the show when he will answer your questions about marriage

You might want to POJA a few questions with your wife.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 07/18/11 05:10 PM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
I was walking on the bridge and someone convinced not to jump. Its the same stuff Ive wanted and got since day 1.

I'll try to get back into the MB process to the best of my ability. Ive had another bad stretch but concensus is it takes 6 months for these to happen less often.

So, I wanted someone to tell me to hang in there and I'll do it.

Evidently, Im not a deep as Id like to think I am.

mss

Mike, none of us are as deep as we like to think we are. We can always do better, think deeper and try harder. It's ok to fail. It's not ok to give up. Giving up is the real failure. I would venture to say that 6 months is the big milestone after DDay, but the real proof in the pudding is the 1 year mark. Start small though. Make it to six months and shoot for another 6 after if you can. You *CAN* do it if you want to. But you have to want to. You can hang in there.

As for asking the questions and never speaking of it again. Remember this is tempered by your policy of radical openness and honesty. If you are having a bad day because of the A tell her.

Likewise, don't be so quick to close the book and never speak of it again until you have *SUFFICIENTLY* gotten your answers. A 7 year fog isn't often overcome in 3 months. Personally, I think it's ridiculous to say after 3 months you will never speak of it again, especially not knowing the right questions to ask.

What you can do is **CONTROL** your questions and HOW you ask them. This will make a huge difference in avoiding love busters.

Remember this current roller-coaster is because NC was broken. It is a lesson to learn from.

Mike, sorry I haven't been on in a while. My wife had major surgery. It didn't go well and we have been preoccupied. Hopefully though she will improve.


CV


Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 07/18/11 06:15 PM
t/j
Quote
Mike, sorry I haven't been on in a while. My wife had major surgery. It didn't go well and we have been preoccupied. Hopefully though she will improve.
CV, I'm so sorry to hear this! Why don't you pop in on your thread and bring us up to date?
end t/j
Posted By: Just Learning Re: Deception - 07/18/11 07:37 PM
Mike,

It has been awhile since we have talked. Sorry about that but life sort of got in the way. I have a few thoughts for you that frankly are not much different that what everyone is telling you,but perhaps well be expressed in a different way.

In my mind you are not going at this in quite the right way.

You don't have to forgive to remain married.
You don't have to accept what she did to remain married.
You don't have to be happy with what she did to remain married.
You don't have to remember with fondness the good times during the affair to deal with what she did and remain married.

What you have to do is DECIDE to remain married.


What you have to accept is that she WANTS to be married to you.

Trust will come because trust is not a feeling so much as an ability. Trust comes when you can use past behavior to predict her future behavior and decisions and the past is most heavily weighted by the most recent events.

For example, she may have been honest for 20 years but lied to you last week. Can you trust her? Actually, not the most recent data shows that something has changed and she is now lying. She lied to you for years, but in the last week has she been honest with you, what has changed? Can you trust her, well maybe not so much yet, but if she continues to do what she says, continues to keep her promises then trust can be built.

I don't trust anyone a I don't know, but I don't distrust them either. Because I don't know them the concept of trust is moot.

My point in this is that you and your W need to decide the future, how it will be lived, how much each of you will contribute to the others life. Neither of you can change the past, it should not have happened. It did and it hurt you but frankly being a victim and moping around is NOT how you should live your life. Moping around isn't going to make your W love you more or feel more guilty. It is not going to help your children or make them love you more. It is not going to help your work or give you a higher rating for promotion.

I know you are hurt, I know healing takes Time and Patience, T&P, but I also know that you MUST start to organize your thinking and begin the process of leading your life, not letting your W's past mistakes lead your life for you.

If you want her in your life, if you love her, if you want your family intact and if she wants the same, then you must DECIDE to go with your wishes her failures not withstanding.

Mike you seem like a very good man who is on the "rollercoaster" you can slow the coaster down, and you can get off, but you must quit allowing your W's mistakes to run your life. She must address her failures, she must address and figure out how she will life with you knowing she failed you and her children so badly. Hence my statement that she must make a decision as well.

I mentioned that you can do nothing about the past, but you can do something WITH the past. You and your W can learn from it. YOu can use the knowledge to sit down and design a better future together. You two can make a plan that meets your needs for love, respect, and honor and meet her needs for trust, love, and respect as well.

Mike this can be done, but your perspective needs some tweeking.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/18/11 07:52 PM
CV-Sorry to hear. I hope all is well. Thanks for the words, but my thoughts are with you.

Mss
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/18/11 08:04 PM
JL-

A classic, since printed for better reading, post. Thank you.

Every line is true. I got a little worked up reading it because it really so dead on true.

Amazing that you bolded the part about she wants to be married to me. That is something I tend to forget on the roller coaster.

Thanks for this. Really hit me. I will show it to her when she gets home.

She is so ready for me to start to behave in the way you laid out. Ive said many times she has been amazing in her end of the recovery. Just amazing.

Again, fantastic stuff.

mss
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: Deception - 07/18/11 08:13 PM
Mike sorta took a sabbatical from here and I have regressed many fold. We both have the same problem. Resentment. Im letting it harm my M. Our story is a little different but not our feelings. This isn't my first go round frown
I am back on Meds again, not sleeping/eating and I cant concentrate. JL just sorta reminded me I have to make a decision. Im not sure what mine will be but you gotta give it your best shot to be the last one standing on the battlefield.
I wish my wife was showing all the efforts your is. No matter how much my FWW does I never feel its enough tho.
I do think JL is right in decision making is 90% of the battle. I feel I am loosing the other 10%.
Not real encouraging from me today just wanted you to know I truly "feel you" every second of every day.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 07/18/11 08:36 PM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
CV-Sorry to hear. I hope all is well. Thanks for the words, but my thoughts are with you.

Mss

Thanks mike,

we won't really know how her eye is doing until tomorrow after the Dr visit. I am posting some thoughts in a bit on my thread (sexually abused spouses and affairs).

CV
Posted By: Just Learning Re: Deception - 07/18/11 10:40 PM
Mike,

You said
Quote
She is so ready for me to start to behave in the way you laid out.
I'm sure she is, but that is not the point. Are you ready? Have you decided that a different way of responding is to YOUR advantage, YOUR families advantage, YOUR career's advantage and finally to your marriage's advantage?

You have to make the call on how you lead your life, you have control of your life if you will take it. Just remember what she did does not have to become "alright" for you to have a good marriage in the future. What you need to do is decide that you WANT her in your life for a better future with guidelines laid down by both of you that make both of you feel safe.

Most BS' struggle with the feeling that their life is out of control, but it is not really. It sort of would be if she did not want to reconcile. If she wanted out, you have little to say about that. However, even then you have complete control of your future (or as much as anyone really has). But, because she wants to reconcile, you have control of whether or not you do. If you decide to do, you BOTH have control of what recovery will look like, what your marriage will be like, and how you two will treat one another.

In short Mike, she has given you complete control...use it wisely and with gratitude for the blessings you have been given.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 07/18/11 10:54 PM
Originally Posted by Just Learning
In short Mike, she has given you complete control...use it wisely and with gratitude for the blessings you have been given.

God Bless,

JL

Can I add to these wonderful words?

Blessings... Have you considered the blessings that have accompanied what you have gone through?

Despite the pain, for us BS' with repentant fws', we have received blessings as well. We have in the midst of the hurt, pain and devastation learned that we are stronger than we thought, that we can forgive and learn about things we never would have considered. We have been blessed to see our own shortcomings in very acute ways.

We have been blessed with a 2nd chance with the ones we love and the opportunity to do it again... Better.

We have the blessed opportunity to improve our own lives, to learn to be stronger than ever before, to love more than ever before. We have been blessed with the opportunity to show grace and mercy and forgiveness to the least deserving people in the world and relish in it, not for our sakes, but simply because they are growing and learning to be more than *THEY* ever thought possible as well...

Blessings indeed.

CV

Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/19/11 12:55 PM
Originally Posted by Just Learning
Mike,

You said
Quote
She is so ready for me to start to behave in the way you laid out.
I'm sure she is, but that is not the point. Are you ready? Have you decided that a different way of responding is to YOUR advantage, YOUR families advantage, YOUR career's advantage and finally to your marriage's advantage?

My point was is my WW is waiting patiently for me to take these advantages by responding in a manner different from the way I have been. She has cultivated an environment with loving, caring, affection, a new attitude towards her work and future opportunities, and just a complete turn around in her life AND I am held up on things I cant change. Your prior post made it clear I dont have to accept anything but remaining married and the rest T and P will handle for me.

I have this sorry feeling for her because of my inability to get passed what she did and her desperate attempts to help me do so. And I simply wont let go of it. T and P. She knows this. I know it too.

Thanks for the posts. Mike
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 07/19/11 01:22 PM
MSS, on my thread over in "In Recovery", Stretch asked me to analyze the factors that contributed to our rapid recovery. Go over there and read it. The key thing was to ACKNOWLEDGE that the actions we had committed that got us to D-night ENDED THAT NIGHT!

The faster you can get there, the faster you and she will stop wrestling with the dregs of resentment that bother you still.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Deception - 07/19/11 03:11 PM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
I dont have to accept anything


Quick note; do not confuse "accepting" with "liking."

Events in the past occurred, you don't have to like it, but if you wish to get off of your duff and start moving forward, you have to accept that.

"You do not have to like something to accept it."
Posted By: Tanam Re: Deception - 07/19/11 03:28 PM
Mike,

thats so true, on the days when I get triggered, and today was one of them as I had to drive past her house and her work, which is rare, but does happen, I have to tell myself that no matter how much it hurts, nothing and no one can change what was.

We can only work with what is.

My boundaries are rock solid, any contact and thats it.....end of story.

In some ways I think that does hold me back because I am so so ready to walk, that would be an easy route, but then I get an ILY text or he makes a gesture of some kind and I realise that although he still gets a bit smarting cos he did care for her and cant see her or even know if she is OK, he has made a choice.

He knows how ready I was to walk in December, and while he an't or won't talk about his feelings to me, except when I get angry and then he gets defensive, his actions speak louder.

He can't change the past, WE can affect our own future.

I think it's particularly hard for us hun, the affairs went on so b******y long, but......... that was........this is.

Take some time to write down the good things, say a thank you for something every day, oh and breathe!!
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Deception - 07/19/11 03:38 PM
Originally Posted by Tanam
Take some time to write down the good things, say a thank you for something every day, oh and breathe!!

A gratitude list for low times is a good idea.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Deception - 07/19/11 03:40 PM
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
A gratitude list for low times is a good idea.

A gratitude list is an excellent tool at all times, as a matter of fact.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Deception - 07/19/11 03:57 PM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
A gratitude list for low times is a good idea.

A gratitude list is an excellent tool at all times, as a matter of fact.

If it's good enough to lift people out of the pits of depression, suicidal ideations, and schizophrenia... I'd say it's good enough for pretty much anything.
Posted By: Tanam Re: Deception - 07/19/11 04:10 PM
Things I say thank you for......

A sunset, sunrise

catching sight of a wild animal or bird of prey (they are so free)

A smile from a child

an unexpected ILY comment or text

an opportunity to help a friend out

my cats

watching ponies have a mad half hour in a field

anything that takes my mind of sad/angry things and makes me realise that as KT Tunstall said (UK musician)

Hold on to what you've got cos the world will turn if you're ready or not!!

It has to get better MIke, and if you look back at your early posts and the despair in those, you will see how far you have come. In 4 months........so think where you could be in a year.

Think what you have learned about yourself and your wife.....I think thats a good enough reason to hang in there a bit longer!
Posted By: schtoop Re: Deception - 07/19/11 04:24 PM
Just catching up, but....

Wow, just wow! I have NEVER, and I mean NEVER, read something more insightful or true to the core than what JL has posted to you.

Quote
My point in this is that you and your W need to decide the future, how it will be lived, how much each of you will contribute to the others life. Neither of you can change the past, it should not have happened. It did and it hurt you but frankly being a victim and moping around is NOT how you should live your life. Moping around isn't going to make your W love you more or feel more guilty. It is not going to help your children or make them love you more. It is not going to help your work or give you a higher rating for promotion.

I know you are hurt, I know healing takes Time and Patience, T&P, but I also know that you MUST start to organize your thinking and begin the process of leading your life, not letting your W's past mistakes lead your life for you.

If you want her in your life, if you love her, if you want your family intact and if she wants the same, then you must DECIDE to go with your wishes her failures not withstanding.

Mike you seem like a very good man who is on the "rollercoaster" you can slow the coaster down, and you can get off, but you must quit allowing your W's mistakes to run your life. She must address her failures, she must address and figure out how she will life with you knowing she failed you and her children so badly. Hence my statement that she must make a decision as well.

I mentioned that you can do nothing about the past, but you can do something WITH the past. You and your W can learn from it. YOu can use the knowledge to sit down and design a better future together. You two can make a plan that meets your needs for love, respect, and honor and meet her needs for trust, love, and respect as well.

Mike this can be done, but your perspective needs some tweeking.
I knew she was an all-star, but WOW!

Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Deception - 07/19/11 05:26 PM
Small, simple steps.

Begin with this singular goal; eliminate your AO's.

1 step, 1 goal. Focus and move.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/19/11 07:32 PM
Schtoop:

Agreed. There has been an outstanding stretch of wisdom on this thread surrounded mostly by my lunacy.

Came at a real good time for me too.

mss
Posted By: Just Learning Re: Deception - 07/19/11 09:08 PM
schtoop,

You said
Quote
I knew she was an all-star, but WOW!
Just a question. Were you talking about me?

If you were, I am not a she, Nooo nope just a guy. laugh

Many others seem to have made that assumption as well. I think I am flattered really.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 07/19/11 09:52 PM
rotflmao

It must be your feminine, empathetic side showing, JL!

I previously posted to a different infidelity site, and a particular disagreement with the "BW mafia" there led to one of them accusing me of being a WW!

Oh, the indignity!
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/20/11 12:54 PM
After last weeks meltdown and barrage of AOs, I agreed to go with my wife to her psychologist for the first time last night. I begrudgingly went since I felt like I was in a good place mentally after hurting her last week and a several really good days. Another thing is I really dont want to sit and chat about this with anyone to be honest. I tried it with my own pyschol a couple of months ago and I just didnt get it. AND, lastly, she was referred to this guy by a friend who has been seeing him for a couple years and his schedule is booked solid and its like pulling teeth to get an appt. WHAT A FARCE.

Its 50 minutes and a $40 copay Id like back.

I just get so much more coming on here updating the thread with my thoughts and actions and getting the real help I need.

He just asked questions and made generalities like "do you love her?", "do you love him", then everything else will work out. This came in response to my question, 'how do I reconcile a couple facts?: 1) my very remorseful wife was in love with another man for many years, only since she was caught (not confessed), but caught, does she want to be in love me only. 2) she was able to keep a hoax going with this lover under the noses of me and my children which can be described by many as one of the most evil things someone can do.' (Im not asking anyone here to respond to these as you have already over the passed 8 weeks.)

I seriously sat there and responded T&P is the answer to everything. My wife knows this and I know it. Id like my copay back because it wasnt necessary to rehash the BS brought up only to have me come back to T&P as the answer.

At the end he suggested I find someone to speak to you so I can have that outlet, I held it in as respect to him, but I thought I have a couple dozen people who know me well and help me everyday. I just dont sit in their office. mss
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 07/20/11 01:56 PM
I'm going to throw over the little tea-cart that is being wheeled about on this thread, MSS.

"Time and Patience" is a sop to abandon "Course and Execution", strategy which is what emotionally intense creatures like you and I need. It's the counselling equivalent to "No Payments For 90 Days! (and then we hit you with higher interest charges.)"

When I say "Course" I refer to things we've already discussed:
  • Decide if you want to recover your marriage, or dissolve it. You supposedly did that a long time ago.
  • Determine if she is doing everything in her ability to NOT revert to the bad days, even in fantasy.
  • Understand that you and she cannot ever undo what was done in the past. That power is not given us.
  • Start building the life you want - FROM THIS POINT - using MB principles.
"Execution" is the tactics to keep you on track when your emotions or other unexpected events start to waylay your progress. You CONTINUE to fail at execution to maintain the third step above. You have an AO; you feel bad the next morning; you come here; we re-shape your head; you leave claiming to have seen the light; you have another AO.

NO ONE ELSE CAN INTERRUPT YOUR CYCLE, MSS. Not us here, not any counsellor, not your FWW, You have to do it, because the probable outcomes of your continued adolescent tantrums will be:
  • Your FWW will begin to despise you - for your actions, and for your weakness in preventing them
  • Your children will start to fear and resent you.
  • Likely, someday when FWW stands up more than you'd expect, you'll take your outburst into the physical realm, and - SURPRISE - the law-enforcement goons are not as understanding as we are.
I'm not trained in this stuff, but over two months in, and you're still berating FWW as you admit you are is a precarious situation. I would hope that better-informed folks than I might chime in here, but I'm doubting that your commitment to the first step (recovery vs dissolution) is at all firm. Your actions are indicating you want "out" but don't care to initiate the step. Rather than "leaving" you appear to want to make her "flee". Not good.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/20/11 03:53 PM
NG-

Since early June my outbursts have been few and far between which made last weeks episode so bad. Some were quick to blame me for breaking the NC rule the week earlier. But, that is a non-starter in my opinion as it was I who orchestrated and conceived that plan, not the FWW. And, it was only done because I have a strong belief she has no emotional tie to him. Lets not go there again.

Regarding your post, I cannot accomplish C & E without T & P, OK? I do understand I cannot demolish my wife's relatively fragile psyche and expect not to blow up in my face down the road if it continues. I also know that I cannot continually burn down one's house and expect an "Im sorry" to be accepted.

With respect to "berating" my wife, this stopped for a very long time in my book and only reared its head last week. Yes, I have had some moping sessions and silent treatments doled out throughout, but im still working thru the hurt.

I understand theres a clear plan (C & E) to be followed and Ive been less than perfect at it. My wonderful wife has shown and expressed incredible patience while I lost my focus on the plan.

Im in love with her and want to stay with her. I said and written to her. She has done the same to me. As I have made a commitment to live with her past indiscretions and grow other parts of our relationship, she has given me the latitude to get thru the intense hurt and subsequent (and much less frequent) angry outbursts. I know that they derail the C and E. But I also know its take more T and P for them to stop forever.

Im working feverishly to get thru the early angry stage and Im almost there. I really feel it. What happened last week was a freak episode by an insane person. Also, not one AO ever has happened within earshot of a child of mine. And, if I was ever to raise my hand to her, it would have happen around May 8th or 9th, thats also a not starter. If it ever got to the point where I felt I needed to hit her, I would remove myself well before that happened.

I think JL said it best in his post the other day, I will learn to live with what she did, maybe never accept it, but I will learn to live to with it and will stay with her. There is so much more to her than the mistake she made and we are learning about that everyday.

Please bear with me.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Deception - 07/20/11 04:27 PM
Nice post Mike.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 07/20/11 06:55 PM
Nice post Mike.

Yes, it was. So were the previous four or five in the aftermaths of sessions of expressed anger.

I'm still here, MSS. It's your inability to stay "here" that is worrisome.

Engineering analogy:

T x V = D

"Time" has no value as an indicator of progress unless it is factored by a Velocity FROM where you are TO where you want to be, represented as Distance.

Your inconsistency of action-oriented commitment has chewed up over two months of recovery period. I would urge you to stay on course, my friend.
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: Deception - 07/20/11 07:24 PM
If you are going to live together in harmony in the future, you need to live together differently. It�s time to start over. The most sacred aspects of this marriage have already been violated. Now you both have to begin to rebuild.
Grieving the Loss
During the anguish phase, some recovery can begin. But it won�t be steady progress �rather it will probably be two steps forward and one step back. It�s a rocky time emotionally, but that�s part of the normal process of grieving the losses: loss of trust, of the one-pure marital relationship, and so on.

Just about the time that the violated spouse thinks he/she is getting over the pain, it will suddenly resurface. But be encouraged; gradually the pain will become less intense and less frequent, and the good times between the down times will lengthen.

This grief process is similar to grieving the death of a spouse. Violated spouses do indeed report many responses that parallel those of widows:

� They feel abandoned by their mate.
� They feel alone in their grief.
� They feel as if they could have done something to prevent this.
� They feel like a marked person. They don�t fit in with normal couples anymore.
� They have a lot of unfinished business with their spouse that is now off-limits or has been overshadowed by what has occurred.
� They feel terrified of the future.
� They feel they should be doing better than they are for the time that they�ve been in it.
� They will even pretend nothing has happened (such as the widow who sets a plate for the lost partner at the dinner table).

Forgiveness is a decision Mike not a feeling. We are both doing the same things to our FWW's. Im trying to stop. Please lets both do.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Deception - 07/20/11 09:29 PM
Originally Posted by Hilsmonemoretime
Forgiveness is a decision Mike not a feeling.

This is not consistent with the model of just compensation within MB.

Thinking that it is a "decision," IMO, makes it more of a weight.

I was able to forgive my wife not because I "decided" to, but because she is consistent with just compensation.

It is, indeed, a feeling. And when it is accomplished, it is true and deep, and not much like those who "decide" to forgive, which is often just a lip-service commitment to forgiveness.

The first and most important lesson I learned here was that forgiveness isn't given, you can't decide to give it... it is earned through time and action.

Knowing that, I did not think of forgiveness until it occurred to me that it had happened.


Just something to chew on.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/20/11 11:29 PM
Im really counting on the T and P part of recovery will allow me T and P. And in my version of recovery, part of it will allow me those moments of outbursts. I have them and now they seem to be fewer and further apart until, I assume, they'll be no more.

I understand the emotions I toy with in her when I get crazed, but she also knows I need to let them out. I get not nearly as much satisfaction letting the out on this forum as I do when I confront her with them. Again, luckily, they are getting less and less with both you and her.

We are going to be a couple now and forever. We have changed dynamics in our relationship and all for the better. Im a changed man in a lot of respects and she is definitely a new person who I adore.

I said this before and to her psychologist last nite, my FWW can write the book how to save you save your marriage after you get caught cheating. Shes done it all right, in my opinion.

I feel very much like I can and perhaps have already forgiven. Its the forgetting (or just living with the knowledge) of it that Im still working on.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: Deception - 07/21/11 01:03 AM
MIke,

Just compensation is a very valid concept, but forgiveness is still a decision, why? Well, to my way of thinking the WS can offer just compensation, can offer everything they have, and the BS still has to accept it or there is nothing.

Forgiveness has been discussed many times at length on this site over the past decade, (we don't seem to have those discussion as much any more which is sad), and it is a complex concept.

I think your focus on T&P is well advised, but as been mentioned time by itself really doesn't solve the issue, it is really only valid if there is effort. I believe you are puting in the effort and it sounds as if your W is as well.

Let me ask you something Mike. In the best of all worlds what would your marriage look like in 10 years? In the best of all worlds what would your marriage look like in 10 years if there had been no affair?

I think you will easily see the reason for those questions. You might ask your W those questions as well.

I look forward to your response as I suspect it will lead to an interesting discussion on here and with your W.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/21/11 12:55 PM
Originally Posted by Just Learning
.

Let me ask you something Mike. In the best of all worlds what would your marriage look like in 10 years? In the best of all worlds what would your marriage look like in 10 years if there had been no affair?

Maybe you are asking because you think this A she engaged in was a wake up call in a troubled marriage? It would be hard to argue this. I went to battle with the psyschologist the other night over this as well. I HAD LITTLE OR NO IDEA OF MY WIFE'S UNHAPPINESS WHEN THE A STARTED. Yes, conversation, an essential component to relationships, was lacking. But, my complaint was purely intimacy in the bed. AND I COMPLAINED MIGHTILY. Her ENs that I wasnt meeting were never really iterated to me and she opted to get them from elsewhere. Look, I knew she was a fancy pants who needed certain things I had no ability nor the interest to deliver them quite like the OM was willing and able to. A simple conversation 3 or 6 months explaining her unhappiness after their initial sexual encounter could have solved this in one way or another, byegones.

So, to me our marriage may have gone along just fine living for our children with a relatively weak sex life and we would have stayed together for the sake of those chidren if the A never happened.

In this post-A world we live in now, I see us being a stronger couple attentive to each other's needs intimate, conversational, emotional, and other important things we took for granted. We now understand how easy it can be to be derailed to destructive actions if we dont take care to listen and to be completely committed to openness and honesty.

So, I think you may want to know if the A was a good thing for my marriage? Did the ends justify her means because we are closer today than ever in 15 year today? No way. Id rather have sat in a marraiage counselor 6 years ago and hashed out the communication gap and discussed the other guy she's started sleeping with and her reasons for doing so. This also implies that she did what she did to eventually "fix" our marriage. BS. She did it for selfish and self indulgent reasons. Simply put. And she knows it.

mss

Posted By: Tanam Re: Deception - 07/21/11 12:59 PM
Mike,

I found an ancient post that seemed to fit you and might help, bumped it on the Recovery page, didn't know how to get it here!!

It's called Leaf in the wind
Posted By: wulffpack_girl Re: Deception - 07/21/11 02:35 PM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
Originally Posted by Just Learning
Let me ask you something Mike. In the best of all worlds what would your marriage look like in 10 years? In the best of all worlds what would your marriage look like in 10 years if there had been no affair?
So, I think you may want to know if the A was a good thing for my marriage? Did the ends justify her means because we are closer today than ever in 15 year today? No way. Id rather have sat in a marraiage counselor 6 years ago and hashed out the communication gap and discussed the other guy she's started sleeping with and her reasons for doing so. This also implies that she did what she did to eventually "fix" our marriage. BS. She did it for selfish and self indulgent reasons. Simply put. And she knows it.


Mike, if I may, I don't believe anyone would ever imply an A was "good" for a M. However, what is "good" is that you found MB. You found a plan for restoring the romantic love to your M.

I think anyone on this board who has lived through an A would wholeheartedly agree that an A is a p*ss-poor way of addressing problems in a M. You are exactly right that your W indulged in an A for purely selfish reasons...as did I.

H and I did not do a good job of communicating our unmet needs and dissatisfaction in our pre-A M. I was lousy at articulating my needs ("I'm not haaaappppppyyyy waahh waahh wahhh"). It sounds like your W was as well. I suggested counseling once upon a time but it resulted in a DJ from H ("I'm not the one with the problem, YOU'RE the one with the problem"). I ended up going along to get along and sacrificed my needs for the M (renter).

I'd never set out intending to have an A, never looked outside my M to have my needs met, and even though I didn't know what MB was, I was good at not allowing others to meet my ENs...UNTIL the POSOM came back into my life via the technological scourge of the modern world, FB. I had not been pining away for him all those years. All it took was contact and the fact that this was someone who had an old, dust-covered LB$ that I allowed him to begin making deposits to.

I didn't have an A to fix my M. I had an A because I was - I became - a selfish, self-absorbed b*tch.

That said, it happened. I can't change the fact that it happened no matter how much I wish I could. The fact is, though, that somewhere in all the mess I made of my M, I found MB. Yes, I wish I'd found it years ago. Like you, simple conversation (and O&H) would have saved us so much pain and heartbreak, and perhaps would have saved my M.

I'm just rambling...it's the same stuff others have said much better than me. I just read your posts and I see so much of my H's pain and anger sometimes, I just wanted to offer my support as you and your W try to rebuild your M.
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: Deception - 07/21/11 05:22 PM
I agree JComp has to be made, but if the spouse is trying as is Mikes then forgiving sooner or later has to be decided. If not we just keep on running around in circles after our tails. At some point when the WS has met the conditions we have to Decide to forgive. Then over time we can trust. I didnt mean to imply just compensation isnt necessary...it very much should be the deciding factor to forgive. Just saying it doesnt work, we have to mentally place it in our hearts to truly forgive. Resentment stops this process dead in its tracks. Even when compensation IS being made. Like with Mike, shes compensating him. RESENTMENT stops his forgiveness. Once he decides to forgive he must also throw away the resentment. I struggle with RESENTMENT even tho for the most part my FWW is making compensation. I say I forgive her but really my resentment and my taker hasn't at times. It digresses the recovery.
Posted By: maydaymalone Re: Deception - 07/22/11 04:19 AM
I just read through your whole thread... whew. I'm really glad you've been able to get past all this-- FOR NOW. I
'm still trying to wrap my head around, as to WHY she still kept going back. Then you go on to say that she actually wore the gifts she recieved from him IN YOUR PRESENCE- WOW!I don't want to seem direspectful, but she was basically his PROSTITUTE for these many years. I know I'm going to take flak for me saying this, but isn't this what prostitutes do-- recieve payment for sexual services? I mean has she realized what she was to this guy? How awful. I REALLY feel sorry for you. And to think thatb this was going on for years... without any regard for your feelings-- right under your nose. **edit**
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 07/22/11 04:40 AM
Still watching and rooting for you Mike. This crap takes time, and with all these heavy hitters I don't have much to add.

I do think that forgiveness and just compensation both are important, but forced forgivness is never a good idea. It can only come with grace, and time also.

You are willing to stay together, and give it time, but that is not forgivness, that is kindness.

Forgivness will come when it is ready, and not 1 second before, I hope you are blessed with it in the future, but untill then, keep on working the program.

God Bless you Mike
Posted By: Just Learning Re: Deception - 07/22/11 06:36 AM
Mike,

I didn't ask you those questions for any of the reasons you mentioned although I noted that you did not answer them either.

My point was/is/will be that your goals for a good marriage should not be changed by her A for better or worse. A good marriage to you is just that a good marriage.

The only question is whether or not you think you can attain those goals with the woman you are married to? Do you think you would have attained them if she had not had an affair?

I was not arguing that the A was a "good thing". I am not arguing about who was at fault, she had the A.

What I want you to focus on is the future, your goals for a good and rewarding marriage. What are they? Can you attain them with the woman you are married to giving she had an affair. Could you have attained them if she did not have an affair?

My point, the past doesn't necessarily change your future at least with regard to your goals for a good marriage.

Think about that, and perhaps it will help you handle the triggers and perhaps it will help you handle recovery is that really is what you want.

Now go back and reread what I said, I think you will see it in a slightly different light.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 07/22/11 11:44 AM
I see us being a stronger couple attentive to each other's needs intimate, conversational, emotional, and other important things we took for granted. We now understand how easy it can be to be derailed to destructive actions if we dont take care to listen and to be completely committed to openness and honesty.

Wow.

Nicely phrased, Mike.

So, you know your destination, you understand the route to it, I think, and hopefully the desirability of staying true to you plan (without the AO detours) is becoming more critically evident.

You have the formula to make this a success story. You also have the friends here to help. Let's get you to that place you described above.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/22/11 12:34 PM
Originally Posted by maydaymalone
I just read through your whole thread... whew. I'm really glad you've been able to get past all this-- FOR NOW. I
'm still trying to wrap my head around, as to WHY she still kept going back. Then you go on to say that she actually wore the gifts she recieved from him IN YOUR PRESENCE- WOW!I don't want to seem direspectful, but she was basically his PROSTITUTE for these many years. I know I'm going to take flak for me saying this, but isn't this what prostitutes do-- recieve payment for sexual services? I mean has she realized what she was to this guy? How awful. I REALLY feel sorry for you. And to think thatb this was going on for years... without any regard for your feelings-- right under your nose. **edit**

Nice post. Way to make a splash.

All this is old news. You're not a help.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 07/22/11 01:06 PM
Nice post. Way to make a splash.

rotflmao

Kinda like some "used food" hitting the bowl water!
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/22/11 04:31 PM
Originally Posted by Just Learning
The only question is whether or not you think you can attain those goals with the woman you are married to? Do you think you would have attained them if she had not had an affair?

What I want you to focus on is the future, your goals for a good and rewarding marriage. What are they? Can you attain them with the woman you are married to giving she had an affair. Could you have attained them if she did not have an affair?

My point, the past doesn't necessarily change your future at least with regard to your goals for a good marriage.

Yes.

All stuff for me to think about. Crazy questions.


Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 07/23/11 02:26 AM
Originally Posted by maydaymalone
I just read through your whole thread... whew.
I'm still trying to wrap my head around, as to WHY she still kept going back.

Sorry if this is a T/J.

This is what wayward spouses do. It is the nature of the crime. Many have called it addiction. I don't like the word, but honestly I don't have a better one to describe it. Read several more threads. YOu will find that they are all pretty much the same.

MSS, keep hanging in there buddy. You are doing great.
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 07/23/11 06:08 AM
Originally Posted by celticvoyager
This is what wayward spouses do. It is the nature of the crime. Many have called it addiction. I don't like the word, but honestly I don't have a better one to describe it....

I thought maybe it was time to mention, for everybodys sake, a little about the addiction principle, and why its used so much as an explaintion of affair behavior.

We all know that the brain is a giant chemical battery right? Well its more than that really, but chemicals and electrical snynapses firing in the right place at the right time definatly have something to do with how we function, and the systems are so complex and fragile, that we don't understand them as much as we would like to.

Like to, thats an important part of this puzzle, why do we like what we like, and what makes us do crazy things, dangerous things, and foolish things, but more important to the infidelity issue, why do we hurt the ones we swore an oath to God even to love and protect.

There is no gaurantee, but it is possible for people losing a portion of thier brain, to function well, and it is also common as we know, to see people with a fully functional brain to function badly, and self destructivly.

So philosophy is not an answer but rather one avenue to understanding how to live with others, and within that hopefully is developed some EQ over IQ, because it is in understanding the emotions that we gain the most ability to love and appreciate being loved. Those are the things we want to do, and want to recieve more than anything else in life, reguardless of our seperate and widely different definitions.

Its natural also, and the center of our brain houses the part of us that recognises the reward system built into us for pleasure, but that part does not think, or process thought, visualize outside itself, or connect to the outside world. It depends on the rest of the brain, and the mind, to make decisions that keep us safe, and it trusts the rest of the mind also.

Its the part that reacts to dopamine, and dopamine can be hieghtened by thought alone. It really is bad when drugs are introduced but you don't need to do drugs to have this part to be stimulated, all you have to do is have a thought. When the desire overwhelms the rational mind, the dopamine can be realised, even if it is a thought that is selfish, although the process does not have to be that way, selfless thoughts can make you feel good too.

It comes down to the mind, the wrong thoughts, and many times unrealistic and false thoughts and ideas, that make us desparate to escape, to hide, and live in fear.

When we run away from our problems for relief, and believe we cannot overcome the issues we are having with our spouses, and run to an escape such as an affair, it has the same characteristics as a drug addiction, with all the desparation and fear and blindness also.

Dr H ran drug clinics for years, and he wont even counsel a couple if thier are addiction issues that have not been dealt with, because he knows drug addiction is a furthur progressed part of the same animal. Instaed of the addict learning how to love the spouse, they love the drug, because it seems to love them also. After addiction issues have been dealt with, maybe then he can start to work with the damage allready done from the drug addictions.

We all know what happens to people who are heavy drug addicts, the drug owns them and unless they stop it will allways own them right up till they die. One of the most important lessons addicts learn is that they cannot control how the drug effects them, just thier consumption of them. The same goes for people who get in affairs, but it is twofold now, because you can't control how it is going to damage your betrayed partner either.

Anybody who has been in and affair can tell you that the cure is total abstinence, just like with heavy drug addicts.

Its a chemical reaction that to the affair partners seems so real, because chemicals are realised into the brain, that tell them they are ok, so it is an addiction in that sense, that they will throw everything away, sell everything, to get thier fix.

Mark made a Thread about the brain and how different parts of the mind work. It was about controlling memories. It has a lot of good stuff in it.

Hope this helps and stimulates people to read up on the mind. A favorite scripture of mine talking about thoughts is..

Psalm 16:5-7
King James Version (KJV)


5 The LORD is the portion of mine inheritance and of my cup: thou maintainest my lot.


6 The lines are fallen unto me in pleasant places; yea, I have a goodly heritage.

7 I will bless the LORD, who hath given me counsel: my reins also instruct me in the night seasons.

The lines on our brain accually shift during stress, so I liken that to these lines.

But you can't miss the part that is in the last line. They take Gods counsel, and have control over thier emotions, as they also are the appreciators of life, and do not create it, because our actions do.

The Kingdom of heaven is whithin.

There is a science in this work here, and a knowledge of Gods wisdom that reveals the science that many of us wish we had paid more attention to in the past. That didn't get by me. God is not the author of confusion, and all things will be revealed in time.

God Bless

Posted By: wulffpack_girl Re: Deception - 07/23/11 03:02 PM
t/j - CP, I don't know if I've said this before, but your posts are so insightful, and I - along with a whole cadre of MB readers, I am sure - really get a lot out of your posts.

Thank you, sir.

end t/j

My brother was addicted to drugs. Well, one in particular, and not that any is worse or better than another, this particular one is a biggie. He's clean at the present time, but one thing he's struggled to grasp is that he must adhere to total abstinence. He has destroyed his last serious relationship - she took him back several times after he promised to get clean, he'd use again, she'd kick him out. Get this - one of the last tims she took him back, she told him he could use, on occasion, as long as he kept his use confined to a specific area of the home. Why the two of them thought this would work, I have no idea. It didn't, obviously, and drove them apart again. She had recently taken him back for what looks to be the last time, and even though he stayed clean, she had so much resentment over the past that she simply couldn't stand to be with him anymore.

Anyway, I couldn't understand the drive, the urge, my brother had to keep going back to this "stuff" that was so bad for him...until I had an affair. Just like drug use, I willingly chose to engage in behavior that flushed my life down the toilet. Understanding the mechanics of addiction, the chemicals in my brain, etc. explains it somewhat, but it does not - and can not - make me feel any less culpable for my actions. I made choices, every single time I engaged in wayward behavior. Ultimately, I am responsible for those choices. Just as my brother was responsible for his choices, to use, or not to use.

Mike, I'm rooting for you.
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: Deception - 07/23/11 03:16 PM
Can you attain them with the woman you are married to giving she had an affair. Could you have attained them if she did not have an affair Mike these are the true things we must ask and you wont get the real answer for a bit. Only time will help you know if its attainable. My FWW digs in gets to work then she just gets complacent after the crises she created has subsided. So the truth is she doesnt ever really change but temporarily. So now Im faced with boundary decisions that involve my "Family" (DD's, DS) She has repetitively proven to me at this point is unattainable. No long term work just work in crises.
I send her articles for thought, now she just skims them so she could answer a question if i had one. I am frustrated beyond words.
This is your first A so long term benchmarks will show the true tests in time.
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 07/24/11 04:02 AM
Originally Posted by Hilsmonemoretime
Can you attain them with the woman you are married to giving she had an affair. Could you have attained them if she did not have an affair Mike these are the true things we must ask and you wont get the real answer for a bit. Only time will help you know if its attainable. My FWW digs in gets to work then she just gets complacent after the crises she created has subsided. So the truth is she doesnt ever really change but temporarily. So now Im faced with boundary decisions that involve my "Family" (DD's, DS) She has repetitively proven to me at this point is unattainable. No long term work just work in crises.
I send her articles for thought, now she just skims them so she could answer a question if i had one. I am frustrated beyond words.
This is your first A so long term benchmarks will show the true tests in time.

This post brings up a point that every recovering, or even can we say, newly awakening to the responsible nessesity of maintaining relationships, should consider.

I think everyone who has a good marriage, or relationship, must at some point realized that it is something that has to be protected and maintained. Many get married thinking all the hard work is done, and now its easy street,"We are so much in love!" Well the good news is, you can plan and be realistic with life and still be in love at the same time. Is that not romantic enough for people? Then thier brain needs an enema. Love is dealing with problems together, and the world and life are full of them. Why was it again you got married?

Hils you said that the only time she works is when you are looking. I hope this is not true, but what does she say when you tell her this? If this IS true, then you need to tell her, because yeah, gee what passion, how can you restrain yourself from filling her needs?

But if by chance she is in a state of shock still, and not sure what to do, still in some kind of fog, you must tell her what is bugging you because thats your job,(pleasure, honor, responsibiity?). If you know this is dangerous behavior, and it hurts or scares you, tell her, because she needs to hear it, and you need to say it. Just maybe she needs to be led out of the foggy idea that you will be able to stay in a loveless marriage, and as we all know, love is an action verb. You can't go wrong with being honest about your feelings to the one who is connected to your soul.

It might just sober up her mindset. Now because I have not read your thread, I will back off on advice, because it could be all wrong in your sitch.

But the point I was trying to make, is that marriage is not for people who don't want conflict, expect thier partner to carry most the load of the relationship and all the responsibilitys that come with life. If someone is a freeloader, they will take you down and it is not a marraige. If they are a renter, they are allways looking for a better deal anyways, if they are willing to maintain the marraige based on THE MARRIAGES NEEDS,(Which will change over time, and will have highs and lows), and not look at the costs compared to other options, well they will be rewarded. Yes even when they are pulling more weight sometimes, and even if they get betrayed. The rewards are personal, because they are thiers to own.

I am not preaching marraige at any cost, but personal integrity at any cost. Do what you can and do what is fair and right. Yes there should be benchmarks, but they should also be agreed upon. Except in cases with dishonesty and openess issues, I can't think of anything either party should be holding back. Like the old adage,"If someone will lie to you they will steal from you" When you are sharing a life with someone, lieing/staeling is stealing your life too.

Hils your W might just need to get some guts, you make sure she understands you are not in this alone, and be real with how you feel too. If she thinks that its controlling well hey, we only got one chance dear, lets stop wasting our life, take her by the hand and insist you both work, because nothing worthwhile is ever appreciated when we don't work for it. This is HER marriage too.

Praying all the MB people the best in their marraiges, and like the Bumper sticker says, "Only those who have fought for freedom can truly appreciate its value"

Keep up the good fight folks.

Mike thinking of you guys and hoping things are getting better.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/25/11 12:59 PM
On Saturday nite, as per usual (and as per my preference), I prepared the food for the bbq, I set the table, cooked the food, made a salad, and we had a nice dinner. I also cleaned 50%+ of the post dinner mess. I do this and have done this for several reasons one being Im a better cook than my FWW, Im faster at doing all this stuff, and its something I enjoy doing. Always did. But, this Saturday, it was different.

I started getting annoyed during and after dinner. I kept it to myself so not to upset my FWW or children but I started getting some bad thoughts. I started to realize that Im a pretty good guy in a million ways including preparing 90% of my family's meal, food shoppping for that food, I do over 50% of the laundry and folding thereof, and didnt work a job that kept me in the office 16 hours a day (I was around), and several other things that flew around my head. I'M HAPPY TO DO THIS STUFF. Thats not what was bothering me.

I was thinking that how can my FWW treat me in the manner she did when all of my GOOD points so out weighed my BAD points?

She chose to spend a lot of time with a creep having multiple affairs and had little care for a wife and young child let alone my FWW's family. Who spent many evenings a week out for "meetings". I had to ask what kind of person finds this type of person attractive? No moral character. Then again, my FWW was lacking that too, so they fit nicely together.

Well, I popped mulitple anxiety pills since sat and finally she caught on to my annoyance. In effort to maintain O&H, I told her calmly my issue. Again, she has already apologized for this and everything else so there was no need for "sorries".

There was not AO.

Its not always easy for me to push her past actions under the rug. I read the letters she wrote me a couple of weeks ago and they do some explaining, but what gets me is the vagueness of her recollection of details. Im not sure if this makes me happy that she cant remember too much of the early day (or even the later days) or its worse.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/25/11 01:04 PM
Another thing I'll share. I dont want to get into details, but my doctor and I agreed to cut my AD in half in response to a side effect of the AD.

The side effect was affecting a quality of life issue so his first thought was to cut the pill in half.

Since it took several weeks for the AD to do anything which is normal, I find it hard to believe reducing the dosage on Sat brought on my bad mood Sat night.

But its food for thought.
Posted By: Jim_Flint Re: Deception - 07/25/11 03:24 PM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
She chose to spend a lot of time with a creep having multiple affairs and had little care for a wife and young child let alone my FWW's family. Who spent many evenings a week out for "meetings". I had to ask what kind of person finds this type of person attractive? No moral character.

Its not always easy for me to push her past actions under the rug. I read the letters she wrote me a couple of weeks ago and they do some explaining, but what gets me is the vagueness of her recollection of details. Im not sure if this makes me happy that she cant remember too much of the early day (or even the later days) or its worse.

Hey Mike,

I wondered about the same thing...

What in the world could my W have seen in my worthless ex-brother???

If you read my thread you know what a piece of trash he is...

It had nothing to do with me or you...

It had to do with the addictive substance i.e false flattery, compliments etc they provided for a price...

It helped me to remember it is much like a high society woman who has EVERYTHING she could ever want sneaking down to the dregs part of town to get the crack cocaine she has become addicted to from a dirty, worthless drug dealer and from allowing herself those first few hits of crack...

It wasn't because you weren't a good provider...

It was because she didn't know how to speak up about what she needed and how to protect the M and you didn't know how to ask her what her needs were and how to provide them the way she needed them.

It was NEVER her choosing him over you...

It was her wanting to stay with YOU and get the EN's he provided.

He himself wasn't worth anything to her.

It was the EN's she wanted...

not HIM.

Remember that, Mike.

God bless.

Jim
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 07/25/11 05:01 PM
I prepared the food for the bbq, I set the table, cooked the food, made a salad, and we had a nice dinner.

Excellent! Saturday evening started out as a pleasant family-oriented event. This would have been rated "Good".

I started getting annoyed during and after dinner...I started getting some bad thoughts. I started to realize that Im a pretty good guy in a million ways....I was thinking that how can my FWW treat me in the manner she did when all of my GOOD points so out weighed my BAD points?...I told her calmly my issue. Again, she has already apologized for this and everything else so there was no need for "sorries".

The underlined words are KEY to your situation, MSS. Your ongoing willingness to return to the "poor betrayed husband" role is entirely your issue. (She didn't bring up POSOM Saturday night, right? Or wear one of the pieces of jewelry? Or hint that he prepared a better BBQ?)

We BSs all know we got shafted by our WSs. And you're not alone in believing that your good points were insufficiently credited by your WS as she ran out to alternatively source ENs from an AP. (Hell, what I thought was my primary "good point" - total conmmitment to providing for my family - was the proximate CAUSE of my wife's straying.)

In effort to maintain O&H, I told her calmly my issue...There was not AO.

Okay, here's where you set the stage to make this a GREAT event. I assume FWW listened and commiserated. Without AO appearing this is a HUGE breakthrough by itself. But it goes beyond that.

MSS, you now can put in your "Recovery Check List" that you understand that as PERFECT as you might have been, or ever will be as a husband, your sterling efforts toward excellence might NOT be the ones that your spouse was/will be most interested in. Concentrate your efforts, if you have choices, in areas that she values most.

BTW: How about next week you write: We prepared the food for the bbq, we set the table, cooked the food, made a salad, and we had a nice dinner. (Yeah, I know you're better at it, but what could be more rrewarding than being "inefficient" with our spouse?)
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/25/11 05:10 PM
[quote=NeverGuessedBTW: How about next week you write: We prepared the food for the bbq, we set the table, cooked the food, made a salad, and we had a nice dinner. (Yeah, I know you're better at it, but what could be more rrewarding than being "inefficient" with our spouse?) [/quote]

She put the forks on the table.

I get what your saying as usual.
Posted By: faithful follower Re: Deception - 07/25/11 05:20 PM
Mike, you are doing some scorekeeping in your head. You have to drop it whether intentional or not. You can ask your WW to cook with you so you two build up the feeling of team work. You could let her fill that need for you even if she is not as efficient at it. This would allow HER to fill the EN of DS and give her the chance to do something women really value...feeding their family. Start taking turns and do not critize her efforts. I think after a while you will start to appreciate her efforts to cook for you and it may lessen your resentments a bit.
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 07/25/11 05:24 PM
Jim is right on bout that BTW

About the anti DS, I would not be surprised if the cut in dosage was the reason for the mood swing

The chemicals it supply's to the brain are very pacifing. The other sources of supply are physical exercise and other avenues that are not easily recognized. In other words you wouldn't know why you felt calmer you just would and by the same token wouldn't feel the anxiety build till it was upon you

That is why they warn about stopping them abruptly and people have even committed suicide when they stopped

Do some reaseatch on antiDs and how they work, and the other sources you can supply the proper chemicals they give to the brain, what the chemicals do, and it will help you to understand

I have seen people go from agitated and worried before using them, to placid and spacey once starting them, to severly agitated when stopping them cold turkey,( violent). They are nothing to trifle with, they are a mood elevator and stabilizer, and as the name mood implies, you don't always know where it comes from

Ian glad to hear about her falling in love again. I guess the old adage applies, women can suffer if not given the right attention, and need constant affection. How many dear John letters have we read? It's really sad but as men our definitions of love are so different than most women, and with them it seems to be right now or they find it somewhere else, even if it is skanky

God bless
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/25/11 05:28 PM
Hey Jim:

Thanks for the post. What is almost psychotic about this/me is I understand and absorbed what you have said because it was written here weeks ago by you and others on several occasions. And, its in SAA and the other books.

I know about ENs and how easily they can be met by others. I know about the fog of affairs and they are like addictions.

I also know how sorry and regretful she is. Her tears are real. She was capable of an incredible amount of deceit, but her apologies and remorse is not fake. I just know it. There is no feelings towards the OM. No contact. No interest.

And I know what drove her to OM and what kept her with OM was not real either. So trying to extract an explanation for why is futile.

We have another, whats it called?, recreation companionship activity for this weekend with the family and that make 3 things we've done in that department since dday. And that would make 3 things more than we've done in a lot of years. Not proud, just trying to keep the LBs filled while I continue to take minor withdrawals with some of the lines of conversation Ive started.

Roller coaster is on the way up.

Weeeeeeeeeeeee!!!
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/25/11 05:33 PM
CP-

Since you know about ADs, you may know the sympton I suffering from. My Dr. was going to reduce by 1/2 the dosage in Sept and could have fought the side effect of one drug with another, but opted to make the reduction sooner.

Yes, Im on the lookout for mood shifts but Sat's was too soon to blame the dosage reduction.

I did not stop taking the AD completely, just halved it.
Posted By: LuvsDavid Re: Deception - 07/25/11 07:17 PM
******** IM NOT A DOCTOR SO INFORMATIONAL POST ONLY**** please talk to a doctor before starting any herbal or prescription drugs.

Mike, I just got off my A/D's and depending on what you were taking you can feel a differance in hours.

Effexor for example has a half life of only 4 hours that is why they push the extended release now. You are already on the down hill before your next timed dose.

Prozac on the other hand has a half life of several days.... in fact, some doctors will give 1 or 2 prozac to people trying to get off effexor becuase it helps with the withdrawl since it wears off slower.

There are several herbal chices also. Depending on what you were on, some block serotonin and norepinephrine, some just one or the other.

I'm off the effexor becuase of the side effects but still take an herbal that will increase my serotonin and norephinephrine naturally and only when I feel I need them.
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: Deception - 07/25/11 07:52 PM
Got off got back on them Mike. Roller-coaster rides are a given. Its going to take TIME.
Not to hijack CP Thank You for your input. I have told her it seems to do little.
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 07/25/11 09:21 PM
There ya go Mike somebody else who probably knows more than I do about AntiDs

I just wanted to make you aware of the subtle effects of the drugs that might not seem obvious

The goal is to move off them eventually and you should be seeing someone who can help you do that also. I imagine what has happened has caused the PFC lobes in your brain to work overtime which is part of what brings on depression and that is normal in adjustments to circumstances

I think of that old saying,"I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy", and I equate that with any tragic shock that people go through. The dealing with the issues emotionally will be the real refief, and it will take time even after the circumstances are relieved

It takes time mike, and joint effort from both of you, to rebuild what you have lost, and it is more possible than you might imagine now. You will see in terms of months and years not weeks, how much you are winning in this fight for your wives heart and soul. That is the true joy you will receive, is that you loved her that much, and were strong through this time. That nobody can ever rob you of

Keep the faith brother
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 07/25/11 09:31 PM
Trust in the MB plan to rebuild romantic love. It's what being married is all about right? Otherwise we would mate like monkeys and abandon each other every two years. Even gorrillas do better than that

If I were you I would deny any place in my mind that professed anything negative about my marriage, and handle this like any other challenge to my relationships. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, she is still yours, clean each other up in the blood of the lamb

God bless
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Deception - 07/25/11 09:49 PM
I would not recommend implementing any herbal medications while on a prescription medication without first consulting a physician. The effect, especially when dealing with neurotransmitters or adrenal hormones can be disastrous. Also; medications dealing with adrenal hormones (epinepherine/norepinephrine) have a systemic effect, so you will want to exercise caution if you have cardiac or vascular problems or take BP or cardiac medications.

"Herbals" are STILL drugs, unregulated in most cases. Realize that most pharmaceutical meds are just isolated and synthesized chemicals found in plants.

Oldest example; aspirin (acetyl salicylic acid) was discovered in willow bark.
Posted By: LuvsDavid Re: Deception - 07/25/11 11:08 PM
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
I would not recommend implementing any herbal medications while on a prescription medication without first consulting a physician. The effect, especially when dealing with neurotransmitters or adrenal hormones can be disastrous. Also; medications dealing with adrenal hormones (epinepherine/norepinephrine) have a systemic effect, so you will want to exercise caution if you have cardiac or vascular problems or take BP or cardiac medications.

"Herbals" are STILL drugs, unregulated in most cases. Realize that most pharmaceutical meds are just isolated and synthesized chemicals found in plants.

Oldest example; aspirin (acetyl salicylic acid) was discovered in willow bark.

I agree just wanted to point out that you can see a drop in effect that quick. Also every drug works differently with each person so your doctor might switch you.

I could tell a difference between generic and name brand. My body was just that sensitive to them.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 07/26/11 02:42 AM
Oldest example; aspirin (acetyl salicylic acid) was discovered in willow bark.

Not to mention barley provides us with single-malt Scotch whisky!

Ahhhhhh, nature!
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 07/27/11 08:23 PM
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
If I were you I would deny any place in my mind that professed anything negative about my marriage, and handle this like any other challenge to my relationships. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, she is still yours,...


Some days, this is easy. Most days, its impossible. Before our relationship was steady, without any issues, and was moving along nicely. Today, we are on the high seas rocking way up and way down depending on whats going on in my head. She said last night that she has her moment during the day when shes alone and is moved to tears over what she did. She says everyday right around 3, she hides and cries about how she hurt her kids and me and how close it came to losing everything. I believe her. Her self worth is so low still.

So between my depression and anxiety and her versions of the same, taking your advice is hard. Im having a harder time than she is at focusing on the positives. But were getting there.

T&P.

Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 07/29/11 06:44 PM
Posted by MSS on 24 July:

We have another...recreation companionship activity for this weekend with the family

We are looking forward to great, celebratory reports from you after the event, MSS.

You know the drill by now:

1 - Remember you and she are now on the same side, working the problem to a successful resolution.
2 - The AO monster stays caged.
3 - Any doubts, triggers, memories, etc, etc, that start to intrude are to be squashed under the paradigm of your recovery plan.

Have a great weekend, MSS!
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 08/01/11 02:42 PM
Hey all,

Nice weekend. Great time had.

One of the things our marriage lacked from early on, was public displays of affections. Truth is my parents and her parents werent outward in their affection so perhaps its what made us. Since dday, however, this has improved and we both have enjoyed it and we have done our best to avoid it being or looking forced. For instance, it could look odd to friends who never seen it to all of a sudden see her sitting on my lap or me grabbing and kissing. And, we dont want to it to be a "thing" that someone asks about.

We spent this weekend with a couple other families and both the other couples were very "kissy". Or at least a lot more than me and my wife were/are. And I know the past is passed, but I think about all the years how we never did that and in some small way, if we were more kissy than maybe she'd be less inclined or at least felt some guilt about her A. And, I have regrets because its fun to grab her and hold her and get and give kisses and hugs. I want our kids to see this more because its part of a healthy relationship and if they are not doing it when they get into relationships, it may mean they are not in a healthy one. Like their parents werent.

She and I spoke about it.

But a good weekend nonetheless.

mss
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 08/03/11 03:04 PM
Had first contact with OMW in 2 months. She emailed asking if my wife was working at a day care center she is considering for her kid. My wife was working there part time before dday and full time after. So, in effort to have no chance for contact with OM or OMW, OMW reached out to me.

I called OMW and spent a few mins on the phone with her. I dont think she is doing as well as I. Its a testament to openness and honesty and I really believe Ive gotten 100% committment from my wife to it and OM is still living his lies.

I again walked the high road with her not blaming him strictly and I urged her to keep seeking the truth. I fear she cannot get what she needs and is ready to walk with her baby from him. Much of the A happened in her house and probably her bed. Its got to be tough being in that house.

She did concede he went out of his way to be with us on our Sunday dinners over the years. He had a intense need to be with my family. Whether it was to be near my wife or he just didnt want to be alone with his wife is debatable, but OMW said she asked him dozens of times over the years if there was something between OM and my FWW. Hed always say "nothing to worry about". He loved my wife's neediness and got off on providing things. My wife did nothing to dissuade these feelings. She got off on being catered to, Im sure of it.

I did feel a little better about my situation after hearing about her's. Sorry to say.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 08/12/11 02:44 PM
Over a week since my last post and Im in a rut. Call it the roller coaster way down or whatever, but Im not in a good place. Ive been fighting these images and feelings and kind of thought Id be in a better place what with my FWW completely on board with the recovery and no recovery obstacles on her end.

Its interesting as I spend more time reading other BH's stories that how upset they are over one night stands, email based affairs, or even 3-week flings. Yea, Ive seen a couple where the W has multiple affairs over many years, but in most cases so did the H. These folks had lousy marriages most of the time anyway.

I was a faithful husband who apparently is guilty of not providing some BS material things my shallow W got from someone else for many years.

Reconciling what my wife did makes her evil. I have no concern that she'd do it again. Whooppee!!! The damage is done.

This is a long road to hoe. (so to speak)
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Deception - 08/12/11 04:24 PM
MSS: I, too, pore over other people's stories and am thankful that mine is, well, mine. As bad as my FWH's affair was to me, it's not as bad as some out there.

Still, I get down some days, and my DD was last November, so it's been awhile. What helps me keep moving forward is working the program and knowing that the vets say it can take up to two to five years to fully recover. I believe it, still feeling the searing sting of pain every once in awhile.

But then I take a deep breath and consider all we've done to recover, and all the work my FWH has done to shore up his weak boundaries. He's a better man today than last year. Yes, I wish he could have come to this place without ripping my heart out, but ... I have to focus on the future, and my future is with him.

I suspect yours is with your wife, too. Wishing you a better day!
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Deception - 08/12/11 04:53 PM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
Over a week since my last post and Im in a rut. Call it the roller coaster way down or whatever, but Im not in a good place. Ive been fighting these images and feelings and kind of thought Id be in a better place what with my FWW completely on board with the recovery and no recovery obstacles on her end.

Its interesting as I spend more time reading other BH's stories that how upset they are over one night stands, email based affairs, or even 3-week flings. Yea, Ive seen a couple where the W has multiple affairs over many years, but in most cases so did the H. These folks had lousy marriages most of the time anyway.

This is a long road to hoe. (so to speak)

The way you are needing to vent is no different then the way other's feel after Dday.

I will share an interesting observation from years of reading.
When a BH decides to recover they always say what WW did during her affair could of been worse.

You see for every BH1 that had a WW that had a ONS says Thank God it was only a ONS.
Because BH2 had a WW that did her OM over the course of 6 months.
BH2 then says the same about BH3, his WW did OM several times a week for 2 years.
BH3 TG my WW didn't have an OM1 and OM2 because BH4, did you here about him, BH4's WW gave him an OC.

Every BH's pain is not lessened by the fact that their WW could of brought up to the next level and didn't.

They decide to recover and most likely would of recovered regardless of how far their WW went with the affair.
Posted By: My4Loves Re: Deception - 08/12/11 05:30 PM
Here is a link to Bob Pure - he is a BH.

Bob Pure's Comments
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 08/12/11 06:04 PM
[quote=TheRoad.
BH4's WW gave him an OC.
[/quote]

"OC" is ?

Thanks for the words and that link to Bob Pure's page from years back. Holy cow. If you a BH and have not read that, do so. Its the comments after that are so good.

Im going to go back and print some of those pages, but one thing someone wrote at the very end of hit reply to Bob was:

After that I found the secret to recovering our M. Lighten up and have fun together. Stop obseesing over the past and start living again.

I look back onto not just the period she was in the A, but my whole life I never lightened up and had fun. My buddy and I were talking guy talk on the email as guys tend to a few weeks back. Pumping our chesting and talking about woman (as committed, married men often do yet dont act on it, thank you very much). He's not in on the A, so when the topic of my wife came up and he said he likes my wife the best out of all of his wifes friends, but she needs to loosen up and relax, I was kind of surprised.

So, Im going to work on this. Relax, loosending up, having fun with her and like the past subside into history. Maybe try to start living again.

Whew! (deep breath) Here we go.

PS. Go read that Bob Pure's post. Chilling.
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 08/12/11 06:16 PM
Looks like you are at that place where it is like their is no wind in the sails and it's a dead sea

The problem is you have years worth of triggers and learning how to cope with a less than perfect marriage, and no one to sacrifice.

The subdued anger and things you did feeling like there was probably something wrong, you felt it, but plowed ahead anyways single handedly doing what was right , ( they are just silly emotional women), backfired. They might have wanted, but never needed, your heroism after all.

Well again for support I will tell you that it is all part of the process, and you will have again make choices on thoughts you decide to entertain. As long as the EPs are in place, and you are practicing the UA time, and are working together, you have a chance to change your lives together.

Now that you have a community that can support and a great head coach, for objectiity in marrige relationships, you two can make it uniquely your marrige again, until the principles are so much part of how you each think, you can't tell them apart from your own opinion.

Enthusiasm will come, excitement will return, when you both realize this is the only way back to fight for your marrige, and want to fight, the time is NOW, to work on your thought life, and bring in the actions that demonstrate change, for both of you.

It will happen if you keep following the plan, together
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 08/12/11 06:35 PM
I was a faithful husband who apparently is guilty of not providing some BS material things my shallow W got from someone else for many years

...and in spite of your innocence you got screwed over.

Yep, what she did is impossibly hurtful, and to use your word, "evil". She gave you a spit-load of hurtful "yesterdays".

Now, yet again, I'm going to re-orient you to today. How was she today? Loving? Caring? Attentive and sympathetic to your need for healing? I'll assume that her "evilness" was not evident in her actions or attitudes.

Now let's look at all the upcoming tomorrows. Which "she" do you expect to be there? The "evil" one who betrayed you so abysmally? Or the remorseful one who does what she can to help you?

In the 1850's Dan Sickles was a Congressman from NYC, whose much younger wife had an extensive affair with another man. Old Dan pocketed a derringer, called on the OM, and put a bullet between his eyes. Dan was found "Not Guilty" in a sensational trial.

Those days are over. Estrogen-dominated "society" has foolishly (tragically?) decided that betrayed husbands cannot exact revenge themselves, which certainly would provide a huge cleansing action to their battered psyches, in addition to possibly causing future potential OMs second thoughts before boning someone's wife.

So, letting OM's actions with your WW continue to torture you yields power to him that he does not deserve. Focus on today and tomorrow, with your wife and family. Force your thoughts away from the ones that bring pain.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Deception - 08/12/11 10:00 PM
OC means other child. Where OM gets WW pregnant with his child.
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 08/12/11 10:38 PM
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
Those days are over. Estrogen-dominated "society" has foolishly (tragically?) decided that betrayed husbands cannot exact revenge themselves, which certainly would provide a huge cleansing action to their battered psyches, in addition to possibly causing future potential OMs second thoughts before boning someone's wife.

Yes don't get me going, in a perfect world...

Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
So, letting OM's actions with your WW continue to torture you yields power to him that he does not deserve. Focus on today and tomorrow, with your wife and family. Force your thoughts away from the ones that bring pain.

Here is the wisdom, you must control your thoughts, because they will control your future, and your heart. "Keep thy heart with all diligence, for out of it come the issues of life" It goes farther than the groceries and rent also, those are just the details.

This is a chance for growth for your wife also,as she has a chance for it now like never before, in the midst of adversity. Thats how growth happens many times, even at the worse times it seems.

Hang in there. One day at a time
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 08/14/11 01:48 AM
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
[So, letting OM's actions with your WW continue to torture you yields power to him that he does not deserve. Focus on today and tomorrow, with your wife and family. Force your thoughts away from the ones that bring pain.


Working hard on this. Hard.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 08/14/11 07:11 AM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
[So, letting OM's actions with your WW continue to torture you yields power to him that he does not deserve. Focus on today and tomorrow, with your wife and family. Force your thoughts away from the ones that bring pain.


Working hard on this. Hard.

NG is absolutely right. And good on ya for working on it! Three years out and I still occasionally (sometimes more) struggle with obsessing on oms. It can be a daily struggle sometimes, but it gets easier with time brother.

Be patient with yourself too! I remember an old Irish saying: You can ask so much of a man and nothing more...

Well duh. We all have our limits... Thing is, they are usually much higher than we give ourselves credit for. You CAN do this, and you can do it well.

CV
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 08/14/11 04:06 PM
This is where I find myself also, and my advice is the same, do not let one thing this OM idiot have dominion on your life, or thoughts, rise above it.

CV I am glad you are here at that stage of recovering also. Although my sitch was different it was the same with timeline and memories, after 3 years I was still kicking out negative thoughts but was definatly doing better. But I was alone and without the guidance and counseling like we have here.

God has a plan, and we are in it, as His beloved.
Thanks Dr H.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 08/14/11 06:17 PM
MSS, a while ago Stretch123 asked me, on my thread, to list the factors that facilitated my (our) recovery, following d-night. My answer, typically, was much too long, but the summary paragraph might possibly help you:

On the other side, I made it obvious that all I wanted and expected from her was honesty, and willingness to TOGETHER fix what had ruptured. I wanted no �pound of flesh�, I asked for no �mea culpas�, or �scarlet letters�. After the initial jumble lasting about six weeks, as we dealt with my legal issues, while handling some of the elementary �How do we approach each other now?� questions, and I had, as I�ve mentioned, re-proposed marriage, I did arrange for a second wedding ceremony on 13 August. By that time, as explained, I was so much more worried about her mental state than my mental pain, that there was absolutely no chance that we would fail. The one thing, then, that I did that I take some pride in is that I accepted that her �transgressions� ended with my discovery, and I could assure her that my �failures� to support our marriage ended at discovery. If she would commit the same effort toward recovery as I, we had nothing to fear.

Further down the thread, I added:

Ya know, Stretch (and others), the most remarkable thing about our recovery is that we did it blind. I never found this site until March '10, roughly eight months after d-night. I stumbled upon the major tenets of MB (O&H, UA, EN-satisfaction) through the inefficient trial-and-error method (kinda like looking for landmines by stomping around in snowshoes, listening for a big BANG!), but when I did find MB, and started reading, I felt like yelling, "Hey, I did THAT!", "I know THAT works!", and "Oh, cool, it ties together THAT way!"

For good or ill, I had to "discover" most of the MB recovery principles and tactics without this site. You, alternatively, have this site, and have the support and guidance of dozens of folks. You have told us, and it's most certainly evident:

Working hard on this

I think you are now in a position to transition to:

Working well on this

Whaddaya say?
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 08/14/11 08:45 PM
Yeah NG, spooky isn't it? Like many of the revelations of Gods truth and my inability to see it, until I had sufficiently burned my hand so bad on the proverbial stove that I finally understood that proverb the way he spoke it and what it meant

" Oh crap NOW I get it, it means even more than I first thought "

When you learn the hard way and then discover the instruction book you know you can trust that book indeed

Same with me and MB cept we didn't follow all the principles and diciplines, and are they really that hard?

I like what you said about not looking for your pound of flesh, and that you were concerned for her
I think we get there when trust is rebuilt and with time.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 08/15/11 01:15 AM
NG

It is about time. Time I let go of all issues pertaining to time like the amount of time she was in the A, time we lost in our marriage, and time to get on getting on. Agreed.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 08/15/11 02:22 AM
[Linked Image from chicagofree.info]

We're here as needed to keep you focused, Mike.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 08/15/11 03:01 AM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
NG

It is about time. Time I let go of all issues pertaining to time like the amount of time she was in the A, time we lost in our marriage, and time to get on getting on. Agreed.

Good thought. Time is the one thing we can't ever get back. All we do, say and think is bound in time. What we do with the time given is what sets us apart.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Deception - 08/15/11 04:27 AM
Big Mike,

You are making strides. No shame. I've also seen you branching out and beginning to try to lend your own experience to others. As you progress in this aspect of the game, you may find that helping others helps you.

It will allow you to look at your own situation from a different angle, an outside angle.

Don't let the bumps in the road get you down, brother. Mind on the finish line, and soldier on!
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 08/15/11 05:18 AM
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Big Mike,

You are making strides. No shame. I've also seen you branching out and beginning to try to lend your own experience to others. As you progress in this aspect of the game, you may find that helping others helps you.

It will allow you to look at your own situation from a different angle, an outside angle.

Don't let the bumps in the road get you down, brother. Mind on the finish line, and soldier on!

So true HHH, Im gonna get mushy here a bit, but there is a song playing again on my Iphone that reminds me of higher things that we sometimes find we are forced to embrace in life to get peace.
"The heart of the matter", by Don Henley.

Just a few lines, I hope they are encouraging and help you to move forward and cement your marriage even deeper.

And I thought of all the bad luck,
And the struggles we went through
And how I lost me and you lost you
What are these voices outside loves open door
Make us throw off our contentment
And beg for something more?

These times are so uncertain
Theres a yearning undefined
And people filled with rage
We all need a little tenderness
How can love survive in such a graceless age?
The trust and self-assurance that lead to happiness
Theyre the very things - we kill I guess
Pride and competition
Cannot fill these empty arms
And the work I put between us
You know it doesnt keep me warm

And the more I know, the less I understand
All the things I thought Id figured out
I have to learn again
Ive been trying to get down
To the heart of the matter
But everything changes
And my friends seem to scatter

There are people in your life whove come and gone
They let you down you know they hurt your pride
You better put it all behind you baby; life goes on
You keep carryin that anger; itll eat you up inside, baby


But my will gets weak
And my thought seem to scatter


Because the flesh will get weak
And the ashes will scatter
But I think its about forgiveness


__________________

Now I remember when this song was new, and my DD who is now 27 was 4, and I was taking for the day because me and my W were done but I wanted to be with DD.

I had the tape, and we would sing the song, and she would ask to sing "Forgivness Daddy!" she had no idea what was going on, because she was so young, W had told her I was away at colledge. I was still pretty hardened and it would take some time before I would feel like things were going well again, and we had hope, but it really was to me the only answer if I wanted peace. Forgiveness and total absolution? Thats not mine to give, and I will never pretend to have that power, but trust did get earned, and it got closer, as it was proven over time.

God Bless you and both of you as this works out over time, make it the catylst for a better and stronger marriage.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 08/15/11 02:41 PM
NG, CV, CP, HHH, et al,

I by no means think Im out of the woods. I have some lousy days lately but Ive read some stuff here over the weekend that really put my head on straight. It was sort of like one of the episodes of Scared Straight where juvenile deliquents get ripped apart in jails by convicted felons. (Sorry, you guys are the felons in my scenario.)

I have a woman who is still desperate for me to accept her back which is really a fantastic thing. NG-you said it the other day, the lady Im with today and since May 8, IS NOT the person who lived the lie and almost ripped the lives apart of her family. She freaking hates that person. She has made so many strides toward bettering herself and not the least of which is working diligently to make me whole again.

And, yes, I do enjoy chiming in with "newbies" when I think I can help them rationalize the unrationable. I see how those who have survived an A and actually those whose marriages did not still take the time to write and some have been on here for a very long time. Maybe its a bit of misery loves company, but mostly its a cathartic experience helping another get thru a real bad scene.

And, lastly, CP, I have heard this song like all of us have a million times and reading the words just now has me weepy. A good weepy, but weepy nonetheless. My W is very busy today, but I will send her the words to read because they say a lot about us.

"(Time to) get busy living, or get busy dying" -Red. (Not sure how appropriate this quote is but it came to mind. Im going to put it in my signature, if I can remember how.)

Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 08/15/11 05:55 PM
...you guys are the felons in my scenario.

Hey, don't exaggerate! I was only charged with a misdemeanor! wink How about you, CP?

But I get your point - we came through! And like the Daniel Boones of the "Recovery Kentucky", we're committed to assisting others follow our trails. As you pointed out, it's a continuation of the shared experience.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 08/16/11 02:25 AM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
NG, CV, CP, HHH, et al,

I by no means think Im out of the woods. I have some lousy days lately but Ive read some stuff here over the weekend that really put my head on straight. It was sort of like one of the episodes of Scared Straight where juvenile deliquents get ripped apart in jails by convicted felons. (Sorry, you guys are the felons in my scenario.)


And, lastly, CP, I have heard this song like all of us have a million times and reading the words just now has me weepy. A good weepy, but weepy nonetheless. My W is very busy today, but I will send her the words to read because they say a lot about us.

OK Mike if we are doing songs, let me share what I have learned about real FWW's and why I call mine Grace:

(by the way... Only real men listen to u2)

Grace
She takes the blame
She covers the shame
Removes the stain
It could be her name

Grace
It's a name for a girl
It's also a thought that
Changed the world

And when she walks on the street
You can hear the strings
Grace finds goodness
In everything

Grace
She's got the walk
Not on a ramp or on chalk
She's got the time to talk

She travels outside
Of karma, karma
She travels outside
Of karma

When she goes to work
You can hear the strings
Grace finds beauty
In everything

Grace
She carries a world on her hips
No champagne flute for her lips
No twirls or skips
Between her fingertips

She carries a pearl
In perfect condition
What once was hurt
What once was friction
What left a mark
No longer stings

Because grace makes beauty
Out of ugly things

Grace finds beauty
In everything

Grace finds goodness
In everything
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 08/16/11 06:42 AM
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
...you guys are the felons in my scenario.

Hey, don't exaggerate! I was only charged with a misdemeanor! wink How about you, CP?.

Convicted Domestic Abuse. Funny thing though, the day we went to court one of my favorite Pastors from my church and a Very powerful Lawyer in this state who was also semi retired and teaching at the Bible colledge were there for sombody else. I had never met the lawyer formally but he seemed to be impressed because of my reputation, and had heard a lot about me. He beamed and shook my hand eagerly.

So here we are, in court for a domestic violence case? Ah how the mighty had fallen, lol. After the judgement was given and the sentence, The prominent Lawyer pulled me aside and offered to help me write a letter to the judge to exsponge the record. He knew the judge pretty well.

So what is funny is that I did not care at that point and was only interested in getting this drug out of my wife and getting her home. Little else mattered. Addiction issues had ruined so much of our lives thruogh the years, our family was all I had left of our dreams, that we would at least stay togehter.

And to that when she got busted for posession I took the rap because I didn;t want to see her sit in a jailcell in withdrawel, and you have a second conviction. It turns out WW was dirty anyways and went to jail, but without any prior convictions, she walked again.

Now funny side story, I had to go pee clean for six months 3 times a week, which was no problem for me, but, lol, you will love this..The PO was a hard guy, which also I respected, because this city is filthy with drugs. Now the day when I went to court to get released from the pee tests, the PO was late, and when I went to him after court and told him the judge had realised me, he had me meet him in his office. I was polite as usual and allways respectful. When I saw him in there he brought in two cops from another town,(the nearby town the first altercation happened), and they took me up to that county for lockup over the weekend. The company I worked for somehow found out about me being there and sent up a lawyer and bailed me out on Monday, but the PO now had the ability to make me Pee clean again for six more months.

Yes our justice system is grand is it not? I called the cops to get some treatment for my wife, and I go to jail for a fight she started, and I just restrained her. She never was forced to rehab either. Now I have two convictions and I probably can go see that same lawyer to help me expunge them, but now having a clean record really doesn't mean much to me. I have met people who are hard core addicts and petty thieves, who would steal your last dollar, who have a clean record, and they have been busted many times.

I know it was my fault, that I was arrogant enough to tie a anchor around my ankle and insist I could swim the english channel, all in the name of God and "Lurve". fo a very sick woman who refused to be helped, and I took much of the damage her actions and decsions brought on. I am aware of my mistakes, but I should have never trusted the law I have allways supported and respected, and even wanted to at one time in my life represent, as a policeman and/or a lawyer, or a DAs office to really help people, not turn it into a bussiness. They didn't see what was going on, and that I was a man trying to save my wife, even though I was desparate.

I have been thinking of getting the record expunged, but like I said only because it is embarrassing in the public eyes, not because I belive it proves I am innocent to anybody. If I do get it cleared, it will only be so I can work in secure areas again, but law enforcement? That dream is gone. Thats OK there are other dragons to slay, Im' not done yet.

Well as Paul Harvey said, "Now you know...the REST, of the story..Good Day!"
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 08/16/11 06:46 AM
Love U2
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 08/16/11 01:23 PM
CV- Big U2 fan. Never heard this song. Found this on youtube.



Im really not a religious guy and Im not Christian. (Adultery crosses all religious lines despite what our Good Books say.) But after reading a ton of threads and every word on mine, this whole experience has left me searching for something bigger.

I guess its because, despite you fine folks, my kids who love me, and my FWW who is proclaming and demonstrating her rekindled love for me NOTWITHSTANDING, we in the reality of life are alone. Maybe its ringing true from Bob Pure's eeriee thread but I spend a lot of time talking to myself and asking unanswerable questions. And, when I get an answer that makes me feel better I wonder who gave me answer when, in fact, Im alone.

Soon after dday I had to go to a trade show and I was in a bad shape but the job required it. I got to speaking to a woman in a neighboring booth during down time and she was speaking about how she finds answers to problems in prayer. I never really gave it much thought. I told her about my situation which was odd considering I never met her before and I knew her for all of 10 minutes and now Im telling her about my wifes affair.

She didnt have a similar experience but told me about a trip to the Middle East where she met a man and spent the weekend with him and the guilt and "sin" she felt was almost unbearable. She wasnt embarassed but as a religious person, she gave into passions she felt went against her beliefs and so on. This happened 10 years earlier and there was no husband or relationship at home, just went against all she held to be true.

She encouraged me to seek a higher answer no matter which religion I follow. I told her I dont follow any religion religiously.

I travel on the road locally for my job and and this situation has me alone with my thoughts a lot. I find that lately I find help for daily angst on my own. Maybe its a higher source of help. Maybe its one of Never Guessed butt kickings still resounding in my head. I dont know.

Whatever it is, Ill take it. And when I come home and see my FWW smiling and hoping I walk in without a sour puss and a negged out attitude, I realize only me and that higher source can make that happen.

The trimmings of life like children and spouses in utopia are supposed to love you and stay true. You can raise your children as best as you can and they still can find reasons to hate you and desert you when they get the chance. You can make a committment to have and hold and to love and be true to another in front of God and family and still be cheated on.

How do you win in life when your expectations can be destroyed? Im learning to ask these questions of myself and expect the answers in most odd of places. Here on this thread, a stranger at a tradeshow, or from the back of my mind.

I know this to be true, my FWW is beautiful and loves me. She wishes she never hurt me and our kids. But she did. I have forgiven her and am helping her be a better person. And she is helping me to be better. Whoever made May 8th (our dday) happen, whoever made OMW find the evidence on May 8th, I want to thank Him because my life is better than ever today.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 08/16/11 03:27 PM
Do you recall the old story about the farmer, the rising flood-waters, and the helicopter, etc?

I find that lately I find help for daily angst on my own. Maybe its a higher source of help. Maybe its one of Never Guessed butt kickings still resounding in my head. I dont know.

Now I'm going to venture into CP-territory........

If anything I have ever offered has been of value, MSS, what power do YOU think put me in a position to still be here typing?

I've heard it said that when people complain that the Almighty no longer performs miracles, it really is an indication that those same people do not recognize the miracles as they occur.

BTW: You mention that infidelity crosses all religious boundaries. So does support.

E-A-O-T-P, MSS.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 08/16/11 10:02 PM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
CV- Big U2 fan. Never heard this song. Found this on youtube.



Im really not a religious guy and Im not Christian. (Adultery crosses all religious lines despite what our Good Books say.) But after reading a ton of threads and every word on mine, this whole experience has left me searching for something bigger.

I guess its because, despite you fine folks, my kids who love me, and my FWW who is proclaming and demonstrating her rekindled love for me NOTWITHSTANDING, we in the reality of life are alone. Maybe its ringing true from Bob Pure's eeriee thread but I spend a lot of time talking to myself and asking unanswerable questions. And, when I get an answer that makes me feel better I wonder who gave me answer when, in fact, Im alone.

Soon after dday I had to go to a trade show and I was in a bad shape but the job required it. I got to speaking to a woman in a neighboring booth during down time and she was speaking about how she finds answers to problems in prayer. I never really gave it much thought. I told her about my situation which was odd considering I never met her before and I knew her for all of 10 minutes and now Im telling her about my wifes affair.

She didnt have a similar experience but told me about a trip to the Middle East where she met a man and spent the weekend with him and the guilt and "sin" she felt was almost unbearable. She wasnt embarassed but as a religious person, she gave into passions she felt went against her beliefs and so on. This happened 10 years earlier and there was no husband or relationship at home, just went against all she held to be true.

She encouraged me to seek a higher answer no matter which religion I follow. I told her I dont follow any religion religiously.

I travel on the road locally for my job and and this situation has me alone with my thoughts a lot. I find that lately I find help for daily angst on my own. Maybe its a higher source of help. Maybe its one of Never Guessed butt kickings still resounding in my head. I dont know.

Whatever it is, Ill take it. And when I come home and see my FWW smiling and hoping I walk in without a sour puss and a negged out attitude, I realize only me and that higher source can make that happen.

The trimmings of life like children and spouses in utopia are supposed to love you and stay true. You can raise your children as best as you can and they still can find reasons to hate you and desert you when they get the chance. You can make a committment to have and hold and to love and be true to another in front of God and family and still be cheated on.
.
How do you win in life when your expectations can be destroyed? Im learning to ask these questions of myself and expect the answers in most odd of places. Here on this thread, a stranger at a tradeshow, or from the back of my mind.

I know this to be true, my FWW is beautiful and loves me. She wishes she never hurt me and our kids. But she did. I have forgiven her and am helping her be a better person. And she is helping me to be better. Whoever made May 8th (our dday) happen, whoever made OMW find the evidence on May 8th, I want to thank Him because my life is better than ever today.

For me (and I am sure many others on the list), we find a truth outside of ourselves, and objective truth. I survived because of my faith in God, because I am a failure on my own. I have to trust that someone out there knows better than me, knows perfectly and works these things for my good, even when I don't see it.

For me, nothing happens through accident or chance, it is all purposed. Well, i don't want to get in trouble for proselytizing, but I would just add that I found that truth to be found in God as he has revealed himself in Scripture. It doesn't promise us we will be free from pain in this life, but it does promise something much better than this life. Anyway, the U2 song resonated with me, because in Grace, my wife took the blame... She didn't make many excuses. Her work on this covers the shame of what she did. Grace is making beauty out of an ugly thing..

Cv
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 08/17/11 04:01 AM
Well the statement stuck out about how you feel we are really alone. That is a truth that can force us towards faith in something outside ourselves, and bring us also to realize how all this stuff effects us. Sometimes it is readily seen as it was for our own good,(As in when Dad or Mom disciplines us for something stupid whe we are kids), and sometimes it is obscured by time and emotional reactions.

So what is love? Where does it come from? We know it is not all good feelings all the time because Dad loved us when he scared us to stay away from drugs, and those people allways seemed to be feeling fine. But we know it when we feel it almost instantly inside, but don't see it when we are going through trials and growth.

We are here mainly talking about marriages, and I think everybody agrees in the MB principles, and understands that they require discipline, and it was at those times when the principles were not followed, that the biggest and most painful life shattering events in our marrige happened.

Why would someone follow those principles, being self secure in themselves, never having a tough day in thier lives when they did not have to transend? Who has not had to forgive and let something go they hated? The kid down the street who stole your bike, The guy who cut you off in traffic. These things are easy compared to the one who swore themselves to you and betrayed you, and reason defies the pain you suffered. The first two were not linked up to your soul, your life, the WS is, you can reason away why the others did what they did, and know they will recieve judgement, but its hard to see if the WS is suffering or getting dealt with internally.

So faith in what is right, before God who defends the righteous, is all you are left with, when you realize you are alone. Its what protects you, when temptation comes in many forms, and it allways does, and keeps you from becaoming macheveli, and sacrificing the permenant,(honor, self discipline, personal integrity, peace of mind), on the altar of the temporary,(anger, vindictiveness, and fear). Fear is a powerful motivator, and it effects us all and has a place. Awesome that God doesn't respect it in us, because he is a God of war, spiritual warfare that is.

But not going off into to much of a tangent, I just want you to know that becoming aware that we face a lot of things alone, is one of the reasons I as a man do my best to look to God and his standards,(battlefield standards Iv'e heard them called), for guidance on what to do next, beacuse if I lean just upon my own understanding, I find it not enough to have peace.

I wanted to comment on how you said you weren't religious. Now Christ hated the religious practices of the day mostly because they took away from God and made men think they were holy. I as everybody else here have heard or seen cases when people involved in different denominations have fallen from Grace. The problem arise because people forget that its God they are to look to first, then to the church, for guidance, and the church does not insulate them from truth, not really, not within themselves, or the mess that they can become, when the church replaces God in thier heart.

There are many good churches, but they are never supposed to be a replacement for our own personal relationship with God. They help share the word of God, and help open our mind to Him, but we have to make that commitment, and the way we follow is to realize that He first loved us. Gods ahead of us in providing what we need, even when it hurts.

Want to share something I really liked on the subject of spirtuality. Its something I need to read from a book I need to buy soon.

____________________-

It is Amazing to Be Human
So there is one person, with two aspects, but with many functions. Here is where we get a refined view of who we really are. The rich biblical vocabulary about human nature describes the dynamics of our inner life as being made in the image of God. Some passages describe our inner functions, and others emphasize a truth about what we are like.

The biblical word mind refers to the inner life, especially emphasizing our rational, cognitive, intellectual capabilities (Rom. 7:25; Col. 2:18). Heart (Rom.10:6, 8-10 , for instance) refers to the deep, inner core of our lives, where opinions and beliefs are formed, where we sense right and wrong, and where our love is centered. The Old and New Testament use of heart (unlike the English use which sometimes refers just to emotion) is inclusive of thought, emotion, and will. Just look for the word �heart� in some of the Psalms sometime, and you will see how Scripture points us to the core so that we will understand the deep place where our very selves are shaped. Will refers to the faculty of choice (Lk.22:42 ), and spirit is the word used to describe how human beings, unlike dogs and cats, salamanders and oak trees, are persons, made in the image of God, possessing morality, consciousness, creativity, and other godlike characteristics. And soul refers to the human person animated by the living power of God.

None of these are �parts� of the human being. One can no more separate human nature into different components than one can view the attributes of God as the constituent parts of his being.

So if someone were to ask you, �Who are you, really?� a biblical answer would be, �I am part of God�s creation, and I belong to a species that was uniquely shaped to bear the likeness of God. That is why have a sense of ought and ought not, and why I hope to grow in selfless love. That is why I am able to speak to others, why I imagine things that could be, and it is why I worship. I am a creature made of clay. I have a body that processes thousands of responses and reactions an hour, but that is also easily injured and made sick. One day this body will again become the dust of which it was made. But I also am spirit and soul. Inside there is a self-conscious, self-willing spiritual center. At this heart of myself I am constantly combining the thoughts that come to me from the outside, the voice of God�s Spirit speaking to me, and the things I�m telling myself. But mixed in there are also selfish and wicked motives that come from the inner spiritual fractures I was born with and which are amplified by external temptations.�

The biblical answer is not that I am a spirit trapped in a body, and one day when that body dies my true self will be liberated to coalesce with an eternal Spirit. (Those who have believed that over the centuries have thought that the spiritual self is the only true self and the body, like the rest of the physical universe, is a mass of troublesome dirt. This view holds that our spirits are sparks separated from the Divine Fire, that we bear in ourselves a bit of divinity. It also negates the value of God�s creation of physical things.)

No, I am not destined to become a ghost. Nor will I discover one day that I was God all along.

The soul is not, as some have proposed, a dreamy combination of commonly held feelings, thoughts, images, symbols, and memories that have produced the merely cultural phenomena of religions, myths, fantasies, and fairy tales. This view sees human beings as animals who have very vivid dreams and like to share them with each other.

No, the Bible depicts us as creatures almost too good to be true. And that makes the reality of sin and wickedness in our thoughts and deeds the greatest tragedy the world has ever seen.


Excerpt from Putting the Pieces Back Together: How Real Life and Real Faith Connect.

___________________________

I have looked at how God has shown me things in scripture that have allways exsisted, after I had experienced them the hard way, as an example of how the word was allways there for me. See the church hasn't been, not in the deeper places that I really needed help, they were only human and could not be, so I blamed religion as not really caring, and even put God on the shelf as "A book of good intentions". But God does reveal himself as existing in this world, when we are ready to see it, in small things sometimes, and sometimes the grand. Our childrens birth, the love of another, the miracle of grace. Nature has allways been a big one. Science(knowledge), and Omniscience, (All knowledge) have been facinating to follow and compare. How did the ancient prophets know the world was round in the old testement? Why was the earth said to be comsumed with fire in it last days? We can see its true now with technology, but what was their tool?

We can see God waving to us from all areas of creation if we let ourselves like a little guy on a bench reminding us we are not alone, we are His children, and He will comfort us. This too shall pass.
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 08/17/11 04:10 AM
Originally Posted by celticvoyager
Grace is making beauty out of an ugly thing..

Cv

I like it CV. Reminds me of some scriptures, but it reminds me mostly of God and his nature and desire to restore us.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 08/17/11 04:43 AM
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Originally Posted by celticvoyager
Grace is making beauty out of an ugly thing..

Cv

I like it CV. Reminds me of some scriptures, but it reminds me mostly of God and his nature and desire to restore us.

That's the key isn't it? The gospel is about restoration... reconciliation. It's centered on Grace as it comes to us through Jesus.

He sacrificed His own Son to reconcile us to himself while we were waywards. How can we not work for that with our own waywards?
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Deception - 08/17/11 06:45 AM
Hate to be a party-pooper, Mike... but I gotta.

While nothing may have come of your conversation with this woman, it is an event that should not be repeated. The details of your life that you shared were personal, intimate. While it may have been a one-off at a trade show, conversations like this are, quite often, the same conversations that lead to affairs. The story you shared is one that many an OM has schlepped onto many a WW.

You, brother, need to establish better boundaries with women.

/party-pooping


On your issue of faith; for the most part, I'll leave gentleman like CP, CV, and possibly GO if he shows up to guide you in that.

For myself; not a believer. BUT... what I DO believe, is that one of the things you can do with this feeling of yours is to crack open a Bible and READ. No matter where that leads you, there is irrefutable wisdom found within. Read it with an open mind, and you will learn. Read it with an open heart, and you will find what you seek.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 08/17/11 02:19 PM
HHH-

Poop away.

I too am not a religious person but respect those who find solace and guidance in it. And I certainly like to read the Bible parts when they are posted in relevance to my issue of the day.

Now, with that woman at the show. The event was 10 days after dday and the tradeshow, alas, was brutally slow. The techniques and skills of MB were NOT known to me at the time. I found the site, I believe later that week. And yes, she was an attractive women if I recall and she started the conversation with "you look like you have something on your mind".

I guess innumerable affairs started with that exact line.

I was a mess and she seemed a good person to talk to as I dont want anyone of my associates knowing of this situation. I didnt take her contact info nor do I remember what company she worked for.

Knowing what I know about infidelity, I see your point that maintaining this type of practice can eventually lead to someone willing to go further than talk. Before MB and you guys, to be truthful, my anger and need to "get even" just mighta led me to a bad mistake.

Got your point. Its moot today as I have found the secrets to this and what Im still looking for will come to me and my wife together.



Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 08/17/11 02:28 PM
Mike, How are you doing today brother? Hanging in there?
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 08/17/11 02:30 PM
Might I add open many books of interfaith seeking spiritual knowledge. I have allways been open to different teachings and views, and felt that God speaks to us in many ways. What good is having a God that needs protection by me? How can I I trust him?
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 08/17/11 03:05 PM
CV-

Im doing really great actually. Turning some corners in this thing. My wife is doing great as she has full time work lined up for Sept and she's really growing up. We are passed a lot of the woulda, shoulda, and coulda stuff that i was laying on her and the mental movies that dominated me are much less part of my daily being.

We talk so much more than ever. And that, my friend, is the ticket.

She's still repentant and I have to sometimes get her fired up for the future. Remember, as her best friend from college put it, on May 8th our girl became an adult. She has a built-in fear of things adult-like. The future can be scary for her as for the last number of years she spent very little time considering it and live strictly for the moment. Lets not go there.

Anyway, thanks for asking and I hope your Mrs. is feeling better these days.

mss
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 08/17/11 03:16 PM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
CV-

Im doing really great actually. Turning some corners in this thing. My wife is doing great as she has full time work lined up for Sept and she's really growing up. We are passed a lot of the woulda, shoulda, and coulda stuff that i was laying on her and the mental movies that dominated me are much less part of my daily being.

We talk so much more than ever. And that, my friend, is the ticket.

She's still repentant and I have to sometimes get her fired up for the future. Remember, as her best friend from college put it, on May 8th our girl became an adult. She has a built-in fear of things adult-like. The future can be scary for her as for the last number of years she spent very little time considering it and live strictly for the moment. Lets not go there.

Anyway, thanks for asking and I hope your Mrs. is feeling better these days.

mss

Sounds like you're moving along! All good stuff! I remember (June 18th for us) telling W "you are no longer a baby, it's time to grow up and your learning curve is short". She manned up thankfully.

We are hanging in there. Tired and hopeful. Keeping our eyes on the prize so-to-speak...

CV

Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 08/17/11 05:09 PM
No I wish to seek God thru the diversity of different conceptual understanding of spirit. I confidant that the truth will remain the same, but my understanding will increase. It is I and my concepts of God that are weak, not the love for us, that is within the disciplines nessesary to rise above our fleshly emotions and towers of self deception of security
We are weak and need to learn that this life is a vapor, and what we have is only a short time to live the best we can, and rise above even ourselves
I have no ability to do this, because I am finite. Limited by my own understanding. I/we need God, by any means possible, to bring us to peace in life and in death, in all that is and will be and has passed away

Hope that makes sense,
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 08/17/11 05:26 PM
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
No I wish to seek God thru the diversity of different conceptual understanding of spirit. I confidant that the truth will remain the same, but my understanding will increase. It is I and my concepts of God that are weak, not the love for us, that is within the disciplines nessesary to rise above our fleshly emotions and towers of self deception of security
We are weak and need to learn that this life is a vapor, and what we have is only a short time to live the best we can, and rise above even ourselves
I have no ability to do this, because I am finite. Limited by my own understanding. I/we need God, by any means possible, to bring us to peace in life and in death, in all that is and will be and has passed away

Hope that makes sense,

--TJ---
CP,

First sign of senility is responding to your own posts! wink

CV
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 08/17/11 06:49 PM
First sign of senility is responding to your own posts! wink

...with a further sign being conducting an argument between them!

(I have actually found myself doing that!)
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 08/17/11 07:01 PM
Yes well I'm past senile but still like to argue with myself NG, seems I'm the only person who cares about what's really important to me

Roflmao
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 08/17/11 09:39 PM
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Yes well I'm past senile but still like to argue with myself NG, seems I'm the only person who cares about what's really important to me

Roflmao

rotflmao
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Deception - 08/18/11 06:33 PM
Mike, you are soo bad!! rotflmao
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 08/18/11 06:38 PM
I tired to give him a head start to get onboard with my limited MB skills and he fought all morning.

I remember way back when, say late May, a young, naive distressed poster came on here and thought he knew all the answers. He'd fight and argue that his deal was unique. Several one-twos and uppercuts later, he towed the line and life is real good a few months later.

That guy was me.

Posted By: chickadee1 Re: Deception - 08/18/11 06:41 PM
I thought it was good coming from you beacuse you where there, maybe send him your thread. you really went thru it!


hurray
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Deception - 08/18/11 07:08 PM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
I remember way back when, say late May, a young, naive distressed poster came on here and thought he knew all the answers. He'd fight and argue that his deal was unique. Several one-twos and uppercuts later, he towed the line and life is real good a few months later.

You are awesome!! grin
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 08/18/11 07:41 PM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
I tired to give him a head start to get onboard with my limited MB skills and he fought all morning.

I remember way back when, say late May, a young, naive distressed poster came on here and thought he knew all the answers. He'd fight and argue that his deal was unique. Several one-twos and uppercuts later, he towed the line and life is real good a few months later.

That guy was me.
Welcome to the club
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 08/18/11 08:26 PM
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
I tired to give him a head start to get onboard with my limited MB skills and he fought all morning.

I remember way back when, say late May, a young, naive distressed poster came on here and thought he knew all the answers. He'd fight and argue that his deal was unique. Several one-twos and uppercuts later, he towed the line and life is real good a few months later.

That guy was me.
Welcome to the club


Truth is I wish I wasnt here.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Deception - 08/18/11 08:52 PM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
Truth is I wish I wasnt here.

Don't we all. Don't we all...
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 08/18/11 09:14 PM
Truth is I wish I wasnt here.

That is not an option given you, MSS. I, for one, am glad you are "here" as you are, rather than "here" as you were.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Deception - 08/18/11 09:42 PM
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
Truth is I wish I wasnt here.

That is not an option given you, MSS. I, for one, am glad you are "here" as you are, rather than "here" as you were.

NG, did you see what he did to me?? He is using MY princess name flirt to threaten other posters who don't get in line! rotflmao
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Deception - 08/18/11 09:52 PM
oh wait!! NG used my name in vain too!! sigh
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 08/19/11 02:20 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
NG, did you see what he did to me?? He is using MY princess name flirt to threaten other posters who don't get in line! rotflmao

Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery Mel. He has shown his hand. You musta left a mark on the side of his head.

"That texas chick sure speaks her mind! I'll show her, all I want is everything back to normal, and she says things have to change! How can I erase the past with her around? How can I regain control of our fast moving train to nowhwere? I was happy in my ignorance, Ill show her Ill turn it around!"

Yeah we get it, you musta had an effect somewhere
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Deception - 08/19/11 02:48 AM
They are pimping me out!! Using me as a threat! "if you don't straighten up fast, we will send Mel over here!!" naughty
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 08/19/11 04:10 AM
Heya, Dem guys gots no class Hah? Fugetabodit!
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Deception - 08/19/11 04:19 AM
"if you don't straighten up fast, we will send Mel over here!!"

Sorry, Ma'am, no apologies here! One uses the best tool for the job at hand!

(Of course, if you ever feel the need to inflict an overly verbose, grammatically tortuous, analogy-riven correspondant on a recalcitrant newby, just threaten them with me!)
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Deception - 08/19/11 04:23 AM
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
"if you don't straighten up fast, we will send Mel over here!!"

Sorry, Ma'am, no apologies here! One uses the best tool for the job at hand!

(Of course, if you ever feel the need to inflict an overly verbose, grammatically tortuous, analogy-riven correspondant on a recalcitrant newby, just threaten them with me!)

Listen here, boys, I am not your personal baseball bat!! sigh

Mel<----can someone tell me what he just said?? TEEF
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Deception - 08/19/11 04:27 AM
I agree, Mel is a horrible bat...

(It's the thick ankles...)

I had to break the $10 word habit due to my sister's current husband who would stop me with glass eyes and say; "Um, dry waller here, can you speak English?"

No help on translation.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Deception - 08/19/11 04:32 AM
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
I agree, Mel is a horrible bat...

(It's the thick ankles...)

shaddup! grumble
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 08/19/11 05:57 AM
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
"if you don't straighten up fast, we will send Mel over here!!"

Sorry, Ma'am, no apologies here! One uses the best tool for the job at hand!

(Of course, if you ever feel the need to inflict an overly verbose,(Lots of words of the $10 caliber) grammatically tortuous,(teeters on the edge of proper grammar use, mostly to make a point and make you think outside your box and jumpstart those braincells) analogy-riven correspondant,(uses analogys to explain like situations, almost to a fault, to assist in objective thinking) on a recalcitrant newby( A stubborn and unable to remove thier their head from thier hindquarters or able to listen to anybody elses ideas but thier own), just threaten them with me!)

So how did I do?
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 08/19/11 06:07 AM
But seriuosly NG, your grasp of the practical and the use of the lauguage in a witty observation is allways welcome and not only promote thinking for me, but lends the charm of a great sense of humor, while still being very sensitive to others.
But Sometimes we just need Mel to shoot em in the rear with that pink 9mm she has.
Yep it take a village, and a watchman,(Ok watchwoman sigh), on the wall gaurding that village
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 08/19/11 05:16 PM
Hey Hey Joey!!!

Yeah Rocco?

Good to see ya hows the family? Now listen up, we gots this "recalcitrant" newby ova here which don't wanna listen...so like I was thinkin..Maybe you aw-ta..well you know..

Yeah Roc, I get it, you
want me to go get "The Mel" outta the trunk, or the NG? Which one you want?


I don't care, just get em in line quick, dinners on the table
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 08/20/11 01:48 AM
I was messing with my cell last night and accidently sent OMW a test message. It was blank as I said it was an accident. These darn new phones have hair triggers when it comes to sending texts and emails. Terrible.

Ive kept my contact with her at a minimum as i want little to do with her.

She quickly repled "everything OK?", I said simply, sorry clicked on send by mistake. After another few minutes, she got back to me "you need to talk?" I ignored, then another few minutes "what's up?" I ignored.

Then this morning, "are you sure everything's OK?". Ignored and deleted.

I cannot be her friend and I know thats what she wants. She has no friends, we were it. I feel sorry for her with her husband still living lies undoubtedly still with very independent actions.

This is a very unstable woman in the first place so finding out her husband was having multiple affairs must have really done a number on her.

I cant help her.

I told her after dday she needs to find someone other than me to commiserate with.

She is not doing well.

My wife knows all about the texts. She was next to me with OMW texted the 3 or 4x last night.

Secretly I give some blame to her as she could have done more to find out what her deviant husband is up to. The affair took place in her home the last 18 months of it. I know, lame. I said its my secret.

My dad said 20 years ago and he was right, men shouldnt be friends with women. Unless theres a relationship potential, no reason for a man and woman to be friends. Our spouses proved that theory right and Im not going to fight a proven theory.

She cant be my friend.

If I felt my wife was prospectively looking to hookup with OM any point after dday, Id be more inclined to keep OMW in my loop, but my wife HATES OM for a million reasons.

mss
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Deception - 08/20/11 02:05 AM
So you need to delete her number from your cell phone. You see that, right? Then you won't have to accidentally have contact.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 08/20/11 02:44 AM
Thats what my wife said. I argue that if I do that and she texts or calls, thatd be worse, I wont reconize her number and Id pick up the call. If shes in the cell, I see her name and have the option of ignoring. Without having her saved in the directory, I have no option.

Know what happened?, and Im pretty dumb. I mentioned she texted me about 2 weeks ago about day care and where my wife is working in Sept so she would enroll her kid elsewhere and I kept it to show my wife. I clicked on that conversation and, well, it all happened so fast. Shoulda deleted that convo.

If this is interesting to anyone, let me know.

Slow news night.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Deception - 08/20/11 03:56 AM
2 Steps; delete her number, have you and fww's number changed. Voila, she can't call.
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Deception - 08/20/11 04:35 AM
Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
Thats what my wife said. I argue that if I do that and she texts or calls, thatd be worse, I wont reconize her number and Id pick up the call. If shes in the cell, I see her name and have the option of ignoring. Without having her saved in the directory, I have no option.

Know what happened?, and Im pretty dumb. I mentioned she texted me about 2 weeks ago about day care and where my wife is working in Sept so she would enroll her kid elsewhere and I kept it to show my wife. I clicked on that conversation and, well, it all happened so fast. Shoulda deleted that convo.

If this is interesting to anyone, let me know.

Slow news night.

Its interesting because we wonder how you are.

I understand the address book having her number, for the reasons explained, but maybe you can Change her name to characters so noticeable that you wont accidently access them.

If you need to save the text convos, somehow get them off your phone.

Glad you FWW was there in all this, hope things are getting better.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 08/20/11 10:05 AM
In the grand scale of things, TEXT-GATE is minor.

I am NOT changing my cell phone number again. My wife went out and changed hers, mine and our daughter's cell numbers just after dday. I understand SHE needed her number changed, but I lost a number I had for over 15 years. Made no sense for me to get a new number.

It was the text converation that was left undeleted that did it.

Mea culpa.

I just dont want to speak to her because all we'll do is review the affair to no end. I put more than half the blame on this on her husband for many reasons, but I am not going to sit and tell her that. Its not fair and possibly not exactly true.

She's in a bad place. I reconize that. She cant even unload on her parents because they not mentally all-together themselves. She told me this last time we spoke.

She's alone just like she was before dday. Sucks.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Deception - 08/20/11 01:51 PM
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...kill_his_wife_nazish_noorani_in_tex.html

Nothing to say.
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