Marriage Builders
I can't decide if I'm crazy or not.

Married 9 years, together 10, one DS (age 7), plus my daughter from a previous relationship.

Had some bumps, most notably a couple of years ago, but seemed to be getting through them.

End of May I got "I love you but I'm not in love with you", "I no longer have romantic feelings for you", "I haven't had feelings for you in years", etc.

Wondered about an affair, but no evidence - phone logs (which he doesn't know I can see) are clean, no unaccounted for time, nothing.

But he has started a diet/exercise program (diet in January, exercise in early May), and he plays a game called Warcraft and he joined a new "guild" in early May as well. There's a girl there he talks to a lot, but she's married to one of the other people in their "guild".

I asked about her and he said no, they're just friends, nothing going on.

The last 3 weeks or so (since about a week after the bomb), he spends most of his time on his laptop (instead of his home computer). I have no way of accessing his laptop (he always shuts it before he leaves it alone, and I don't know the password). He said he just prefers to be alone in the living room because being around me is awkward, and also his desk has been making his back hurt. He only plays on his computer on "raid" nights so that he can be on "vent" (a computer voice chat program they use to talk during events).

I can't decide if I'm crazy and making a mountain out of nothing - just casting around looking for some reason other than he's fallen out of love with me? Help? Thoughts? Advice?
Are you listening in??? If not...what about a voice activated digital voice recorder hidden in the living room recording his "game"?

If that doesn't reveal anything...put it in his car.


Don't ask him for the truth. If he's wayward he won't give it to you. You must overcome the wall of denial yourself. If you want the truth...inspect what you expect.

SNOOP IT OUT.

Mr. W
Originally Posted by Seraph
they're just friends,


Yes he is.
Seraph, welcome to Marriage Builders. MrW is correct. Don't ask your H, just quietly snoop to find out what he is doing. I would put a recorder close to his laptop. There is one mentioned over the OI forum that is very small and you can hide it close to where he uses the computer and then later download the conversations on your own computer. http://www.brickhousesecurity.com/usb-voice-recorder-2gb.html?green=17483872245

If there is any way you can get a keylogger on his computer that would be ideal. You would only have to get on his computer ONCE and after that it will email you reports. That keylogger is eblaster which is at spectorproc.com

I would find out what he is doing FIRST and then come back here and we will give you next steps.
My husband's affair partner and he were "just friends" and he talked about her a lot. I saw no evidence of their phone talking or texting, nothing... nothing at all..... but yes he is a cheater.
He only talks on the chat program when in the office, so he never says anything incriminating there.

The one time I used his laptop was to do a workout video in the living room (more space) and he spent the entire time upstairs in the next room so he knew as soon as the video ended.

I'm honestly not sure what to hope for. If it's an affair, there's a chance of stopping it and recovering my marriage. If it's not, and he really just doesn't love me anymore, then I don't even know.
Originally Posted by Seraph
I can't decide if I'm crazy or not.

Seraph,

Always trust your gut. Be smart and don't let on that you suspect anything. Waywards are notorious for taking things underground when they feel threatened. And they can be really good at it.

Do a great PLAN A while snooping to find out what is really going on. Come back here once you have the evidence and we can help you kill this A and move forward.

Most of us here have heard the exact same things that your H has said. They were in affairs. Don't believe for one second that he will be honest with you.

I'm sorry that you are here.
Buy His Needs Her Needs !!
It may not be that he doesn't love you, you two may just not be meeting each others needs and not know it. Read the book His Needs/Her Needs whether he's having an affair or not. You've got too much invested not to try and save you're marriage. Even if only one of you reads the book your marriage will be at least 50% better, and from the sounds of it, might make it 100% better.
IT IS AN AFFAIR! Take my word for it. It is MOST DEFINATELY an affair. You hit a nerve on that one.

How long has he been playing?

I know the game well, just cancelled my sub actually, this morning, ends tomorrow. If the vets say it's a good idea, I'd sure re-sub and play a bit more. Talk about hands on snooping. LOL.

Yes, I've been there, done that, and that game was a HUGE culprit in a lot of my stbxh's stupid EA/CA's.

I don't know mac computers, might try over in the investigating forums about getting into it.
I've been trying Plan A - it's hard to say how it's going. He's pleasant most of the time, chatty, etc. Hasn't talked about actually separating - just that he knows we will and it makes him sad, etc.

We sleep in the same bed, but don't touch, no physical affection, etc, at all. The week after he dropped the bomb, we had a lot of "hysterical bonding" where we had SF 1-2 times a day, but a week later he said it felt "weird" to hug me, touch me, etc. He's hugged me maybe 3 times since then, all when I've been upset.

Working on not being upset around/near him - pleasant, happy, cheerful but not irritating. Very hard - would really like to know one way or the other.
Originally Posted by No_Stress_Zone
IT IS AN AFFAIR! Take my word for it. It is MOST DEFINATELY an affair. You hit a nerve on that one.

How long has he been playing?

I know the game well, just cancelled my sub actually, this morning, ends tomorrow. If the vets say it's a good idea, I'd sure re-sub and play a bit more. Talk about hands on snooping. LOL.

Yes, I've been there, done that, and that game was a HUGE culprit in a lot of my stbxh's stupid EA/CA's.


He's been playing since mid 2009 - we've been playing together. We used to raid together, but then our guild broke up and he moved one of his characters to a different server to raid with them.

I've been playing online more - I can see he doesn't have anyone new added to his Real ID (real life friends), but I would imagine he'd avoid that as it would look suspicious.

I'm not on the server he plays with this girl on, and it would look weird if I made a char, so I'm going to avoid that for now.

He has had one cyber affair in the past when I was very busy at work and not meeting his needs - it was over 2 years ago, and I had no idea until he told me.
'been there done that' as in being in YOUR shoes, not HIS shoes. Just thought I'd clear that up.

Do you play the game at all?
just bumbed my story for you. I did not put in all about warcrack, but it was a huge part. Cyber affairs, I know all about the damn things. Sadly.

edited to say name of post is BS of serial cheater....words from experience.

Its in this forum

granted, I had medical issues tossed in, but the CA's? started long before.
Thanks - man. That's tough.

I'm seriously on a rollercoaster - I just want to find out, one way or the other. Ugh!
The answer is: Yes, he's having an affair. If you want more information about his affair (who, how long, etc.), keep digging...but it's not a question of 'if', based on your post.

Don't drive yourself crazy wondering "is he or isn't he", and denying a reality you don't want to believe.

Accept the fact that he IS, and decide what you want to do next.
Originally Posted by Krazy71
The answer is: Yes, he's having an affair. If you want more information about his affair (who, how long, etc.), keep digging...but it's not a question of 'if', based on your post.

Don't drive yourself crazy wondering "is he or isn't he", and denying a reality you don't want to believe.

Accept the fact that he IS, and decide what you want to do next.


It's funny because even though I know all the signs say he is, I'm having such a hard time accepting it.

I think what I need to do next is keep quietly snooping until I have irrefutable proof. At that point, it looks like I'll need to think about exposure and how best to go about it.

I know it sounds stupid, but I'm worried that I've somehow convinced myself that if he's having an affair, I have a better chance of recovering my marriage than if he's done - and since I'm looking for a "reason", I'm reading more into things, or something? Does that even make sense?
Trust me you are not reading into this anything but what is truly there.

When you said 'cyber' affair, in what form? As in strickly talking or as in pictures, web cams, whole nine yards cyber sex?

How do you know it ended, for sure? He say so? How long did it last? What did he tell you about it?

I've found thru this marriage, history repeated itself pretty darn close. I knew they were in full fling mode when he started playing our old love songs and singing to them. I wanted to kill him at those times, believe me.

I'm sorry Seraph, I really am. Time to catch this stuff and blow it wide open on him.

I will say one thing. IF he says he wants to work this out after he's caught? NO WARCRACK. They nicknamed it that for a reason. His online time will have to be very severly restricted, and things like parental controls will be set hard core to stop it. That is the ONLY way. if he shows resistance, tell him, it's all or nothing. No inbetween. It's far too easy to find these women online. Sickening how easy.

Originally Posted by Seraph
I know it sounds stupid, but I'm worried that I've somehow convinced myself that if he's having an affair, I have a better chance of recovering my marriage than if he's done

Seraph,

The MB principles will teach you both how to get back the love and respect and build a healthy life together whether it is an affair or not. You still stand a good chance even if he is just checked out right now.

If it is an A then you will first need to kill it before you can make any progress.

I think you are in denial... and I understand that 100%. I was there too.

Click on the surviving infidelity link at the right and start to educate yourself on affairs, Plan A, doing a proper exposure, ... everything. read.

Stay strong. We can help you if you help yourself.





Originally Posted by No_Stress_Zone
When you said 'cyber' affair, in what form? As in strickly talking or as in pictures, web cams, whole nine yards cyber sex?


Online chatting - no pictures, no web cams, no phone. I didn't find out - he admitted it to me a few months after it had ended. I believe it really did end because he talked with her in front of me and "broke contact" and then she left the server. I've had no suspicions or any weird behaviour until just this last month.
How did he come to just out right admit it? Did he say how long it lasted?

this quote of yours, makes me want to reach thru the laptop and shake some sense into him.

Quote
The last 3 weeks or so (since about a week after the bomb), he spends most of his time on his laptop (instead of his home computer). I have no way of accessing his laptop (he always shuts it before he leaves it alone, and I don't know the password). He said he just prefers to be alone in the living room because being around me is awkward, and also his desk has been making his back hurt. He only plays on his computer on "raid" nights so that he can be on "vent" (a computer voice chat program they use to talk during events).


My xtbxh carried his everywhere, in the morning it was in his car, at night it was at his side. He eventually started leaving it upstairs on game nights, and I practiced until I could go up the stairs without making a creak on them, and spent a good hour messing with it one night. Got tons of stuff off it, but took forever to get the password figured out. Back then, he was still to dumb to catch on to what i was doing. So keep your mouth shut lol, I gave away all my secrets in the 'big fight'. I gave up on the marriage in that fight to, so didn't really matter.

Does the laptop have a webcam?

This program you found, sounds like that might be the ticket. Good luck with it.
one last question.

where did the paranoid shrew in the thread title come from?

I started to think that was my name for a few years, as that is what he called me.
Originally Posted by No_Stress_Zone
one last question.
where did the paranoid shrew in the thread title come from?


Oh, just me trying to convince myself I'm being paranoid. He's never called me a shrew at all - never called me a name ever, actually.

That's why this whole thing is so weird - we had an argument about him not spending time with me, and it turned in to "I'm not in love with you anymore, I don't see us staying together." I was a bit blindsided, to be honest.
My husband and his affair partner were just friends.


She was also my friend.


Your husband's affair partner may not even have anything to do with his computer life. You just never know.


SB
Nothing last night. He actually went out shopping for clothes.

I made a character on his other server, and logged in and looked around, then deleted her. This morning he asked why, and I said I didn't really know - I was just curious.

He thanked me for telling him, but seemed really bothered.

Guess we'll see what today brings.
I'm making myself crazy! Now I've convinced myself that I'm reading into things, that I can't admit he just doesn't love me and so I have to convince myself he's having an affair. Other than the "laptop" thing, which I can totally see being because he doesn't want to be around me, I don't have any proof.

I swear, this rollercoaster is the pits.
Seraph, hun, time to come out of denial. How did he know you even made a character on his server? Forget to log in on your old one?

Yes, you are making yourself crazy, calm down! HE IS HAVING AN AFFAIR! Trust us, please. He does not want to be around you because....HE'S HAVING AN AFFAIR! One night of snooping and trying to catch is NOT going to give the answer.

So tell us about his new cloths. Need I say it?? SLap a sign on his forehead there. You will get proof.
How many hours a day does he play warcrack?
Originally Posted by No_Stress_Zone
Seraph, hun, time to come out of denial. How did he know you even made a character on his server? Forget to log in on your old one?

Yes, you are making yourself crazy, calm down! HE IS HAVING AN AFFAIR! Trust us, please. He does not want to be around you because....HE'S HAVING AN AFFAIR! One night of snooping and trying to catch is NOT going to give the answer.

So tell us about his new cloths. Need I say it?? SLap a sign on his forehead there. You will get proof.


We have each other on "Real ID", so you can see when one of us logs in, even on a different server. I thought he had logged off for the night, so I logged on to see if his "friend" had been there - but he logged back in and noticed the character on his server.

His clothes are just a few polo shirts, a couple plain coloured tshirts, and a hawaiian-type shirt. He's lost about 50lbs recently, so he does need new clothes. Not sure why he picked last night to go shopping, but maybe he just wanted to not be around me.

Hours per day - well, he logs in some from work (to "check auctions"), and plays probably 3ish hours per night, more on weekends.

This morning he logged in between the time when he finished working out and the time when he got in the shower, but it doesn't seem like he did anything in that time.
sorry for the delay, had to go look to see how long you were together and compare to how long I've been separated to ensure this was NOT indeed, my husband you were talking about.

I'm sorry hun, knowing my own history, I might not be the one to offer any advice here, I have just seen far too much of this going on in these games. Not just WoW, but all of the ones I've played. IT's rampant. and why I have not logged into any of the games since I rejoined here in march. Got tired of playing only my male characters just to be left alone.

Have you asked him about pulling the plug on being online games period?
He went through a period where he said he was "done playing" so much because it was "wasted" time - this was about 1-2 weeks before the bomb, and lasted about a week after - he was only playing twice a week for "raids" (with the guild the "friend" is in).

But now he's back to logging in before work, during work, after work.

Honestly, at this point, I'd like him to keep playing in the hopes I can find some concrete evidence one way or the other - otherwise I'll go crazy.
when he is playing at night, is he on the desktop or the laptop? If desk, where is the laptop at that time? I'm assuming WoW is on the laptop since he logs in at work? When he is on the laptop at home, does he show up on the network or is he using a wireless connection to some fool who did not lock their internet down?

Sure wish I knew about mac computers frown I knew XP quite well, gave up on Vista...just thinking here.

Need to go work on paperwork...found a whole new box, looking thru tons of old CC bills frown
Originally Posted by Seraph
He went through a period where he said he was "done playing" so much because it was "wasted" time - this was about 1-2 weeks before the bomb, and lasted about a week after - he was only playing twice a week for "raids" (with the guild the "friend" is in).

But now he's back to logging in before work, during work, after work.

Honestly, at this point, I'd like him to keep playing in the hopes I can find some concrete evidence one way or the other - otherwise I'll go crazy.

what did he do with all this newfound time of his when he stopped playing? That is where the dirt is on him.

You'll get the evidence, never fear. How's that program for picking up IM's?
Of course your WH is having an A of some sort. However, even if he was really only withdrawn and had no OW, the "carrot" part of Plan A would still be in order.

Examine your own part of the M, since you can only change you. What EN's could you meet better? Even if he won't discuss his EN's with you, you know him well enough to guess pretty accurately.

Meet his EN's as much as he'll let you, and snoop quietly, patiently, tirelessly. Eventually he will make a mistake. They all do.

No more detectable rookie moves like creating an account he could trace to you. That will only alert him, and send him deeper underground. Be cool, don't do anything he can trace to you, and sooner or later he'll make a mistake. They all do.

To repeat another poster, be open to the possibility of a real-life OW, too. Don't rule anything out yet.
Find out anything yet?

I know, I'm impatient. ;d
Originally Posted by No_Stress_Zone
Find out anything yet?

I know, I'm impatient. ;d


No, nothing yet. Honestly, it's the not knowing that's killing me. I'm Plan A-ing my butt off, regardless, but I'd like to know what I'm up against.
Confirmed. Now what? Please help.
Bumping for Seraph
Seraph, I'm sorry the suspicions of infidelity were correct; however, you are in the best place you can be to handle it. Can you give us a bit more information re: your confirmation of the affair?

Also, how clued in is your WH that you know something's afoot?

It's slow on the weekends, but you should get some traffic nonetheless.
Originally Posted by Seraph
Confirmed. Now what? Please help.

Can you give us details?

Who is OW
Is she married?
Do they work together?

I am sorry about this. Don't confront yet. Get your exposure list ready. Have you read up on exposure?

I'm not here for much longer today.
Seraph,

Go to the notable post forum and click on Notable posts and threads.

There is an "exposure" thread by S. Harley. Read this.
Originally Posted by Seraph
Confirmed. Now what? Please help.

Click the carrot/stick link in my sig line.
It's like Cliff Notes for Plan A.

Do NOT confront him.
Not yet.
Quote
Is he having an affair or am I a paranoid shrew?

Now you know.
I'm convinced you'd rather have turned out to be a shrew.
But, honestly, you could not come across as less shrew-like in your posts.

Pay attention to me here.
You are not some nasty biotch who did something to "deserve" this. Don't go there. Don't even try.

People have affairs sometimes.
Affairs do happen in perfectly good marriages.
You got that?
It always makes me worry a bit when someone throws out information like that and disappears. Please tell me you're still playing this smart and cool. It will be easier if you are, but we can help you even if you've made some mistakes in the last almost 8 hours.

How did you find out, what is happening now? We will be much more useful if we have more information.
Bad. Confronted him. And her. And shes gone to confess to her husband. Going to follow up on the "confession". We'll see.

He doesn't love me, doesn't want to be married to me, wants a divorce, doesn't want to end it with her.

Going to read plan a
Can you tell us more about what happened when you confronted them? I would not trust her to go "confess" to her husband, chances are she will spin it. If you have her husband's contact info, please call him NOW. He needs to hear it from you. Don't stop there though, continue on with exposure to others, your family, his family, friends with influence, a pastor.

As for him saying he wants a divorce, they pretty much all say that. Calm down, start making a plan hon. I know you are in great pain right now. Breathe. This has only just begun.
Call everyone now.

You only have one chance to tell your story first, before the waywards try to spin you as crazy.

You're not crazy!
Seraph,

So sorry! Just wanted to encourage you to stay connected here. Most here know EXACTLY what you're going through and will help. Listen to P Meggy.
He's now said that for the sake of our son, he wants a "good" friendshipmwith me. He has agreed to us calling us parents together, and has also agreed to destroy his secret cell phone (!!!) and send a NC letter and delete his secret email account. He's also going to stop playing Warcraft (the game they met on). It's not to work on our marriage, though - it's to be friends for our son.

It's been going on about 2 months (so about 2 weeks before "I love you, but ...") and included phone sex. She lives in the same state as his parents, whom he is visiting, with our son, in Aug, so I think it would have gone physical then.

Too tired to type much more. He's been angry, sad, crying, hurtful - roller coaster. Trying to calm things down and Plan A.
Okay, this is a good start, but you still need to follow up with OW's husband. That poor man has a right to know what's going on in his marriage too.

There's a lot more to do but it doesn't all have to be done tonight. It is CRITICAL that you stay with the plans. You've got a very good shot at recovering your marriage.

That's GREAT that he's willing to both of you calling your parents together. Make sure that happens and he doesn't get the chance to spin anything first.

As far as the NC letter, are you going to use the one from Surviving an Affair?

Don't worry about what he's saying right now. He's pretty much quoting straight from the wayward script. We'll help you deal with this more.

Please don't tell your WH about this place and don't tell him your strategy, okay? In fact, stop all discussions about things for now and try and get some rest (I know, impossible) but just try. When you're fresh tomorrow, come back and let us help you with strategy.

You're going to be okay. Just stick with the plans and I promise you the journey will be much smoother however this ends.

(((Seraph)))
awww dang it

I'm sorry Seraph, I was hoping I'd be wrong. Just want to get this out real fast, took me a few to read this.
ok, now....friends for your son. No. Not going to work.

get in touch with the OW's husband.

Since they did this in a guild, I'd sure expose to the guild leader, and officers at the very ...oh wait, isnt OWH the guild leader? hmm, well, if he gets mad enough, he's going to do that himself.

Definately pull the plug on warcrack, for both of you guys unfortunately.

parental controls on the computer would be a good idea as well.

Don't take his word on the phone and email.

You can't LB him, but tell him if NSZ was there, he'd be lucky to HAVE a computer that worked. Well, maybe not a good thing to tell him. Ugh.

Plan A for sure, but also be thinking plan b. You can only plan A so much before you will hate him.

How are YOU?
((((Seraph)))))

You are in good hands here, and just wanted to wish/pray you a good nights' sleep as you've had a such a hard few days. I know that's a crazy understatement.

Tomorrow is another day to fight the good fight.

Try to sleep and EAT. There's help here.
Relax. You will get through this.

No Lovebusters. Don't give him any excuse for his bad behavior.

Be polite and as upbeat as possible. Learn about Plan A.

It's late so try to sleep, but get any remaining exposure done first thing tomorrow.
He balked, wanted to ask her to wait for him, wow.

Deleted all the mail in his secret account, sent a fairly poor NC letter - wasn't open to input, just glad he did it at all. Did say he won't contact her, she shouldn't contact him. Came in the bedroom and cried. Told me he hated me. Smashed the phone too.

Then wanted to login to Warcraft to tell her to check mail. I suggested she'd do that anyway, and it defeated NC. Which he's obviously not committed to. (didn't say that part).

He stalked around like a lion with a thorn in his paw and is now outside, sitting. Probably crying and hating me.

I want to throw up. He's never been so mean. How does 2 months of an online fling with someone else's wife do this?

I feel hopeless. He hates me, he wants her, he isn't going to keep NC.
He is almost certainly not going to keep NC. That doesn't mean this time is wasted. The fact that he even sent a lame NC letter this soon is encouraging in the long run, just be aware that for a while this will be bumpy.

1. Expect C. It will happen. He is not a broken man yet, only a tiny bit cracked around the edges. We can help you come up with a plan to deal with it when it happens.

2. Carry on your Plan A. This is a critical time for you to pull it together and meet what needs he will let you. He is likely more bonded than he realizes, or he wouldn't even consider staying at this point. Many, many WS's leave at this stage of the game (and many still come back to their families, so don't stress it too much even if he does go). For as long as he's there, you will have greater access for your Plan A, and need to make the most of it.

3. This is not the time to give up hope. This is the time to fight for your M, using the tools we are handing you.

4. Get used to the mean. It'll be around till NC has stuck for a while. It's so typical it's scary. They are all mean, and your WH is no different. So don't let the mean scare you, learn to do what you need to do, regardless of what tantrums he throws. It's not easy, but you can do it.

5. Keep posting. You will have help every step of the way. You will get through this.
This is all show to get you to calm down and to cool the fire you're bringing.

What to do?

Bring hell on him and OW. Exposure brings that. Tell his parents immediately and call OW's husband and tell him.

It sounds counterintuitive, but it works. Exposure kills affairs because it brings them out into the open.

Don't get me wrong. He'll be ticked as heck. He'll tell you that he was willing to save things but that you blew it.

Let him know that you will not be "friends" if you divorce. Give him the reality. Tell him that if he goes that route you will sue for sole custody of your son, spousal support, and child support in addition to everything you own.

You won't get all that, but he doesn't know that. Make divorce look ugly while recovery looks better.

Best of luck. I know this sucks.
you know seraph, it's not JUST the OW he has to deal with right now. We call that game what? WarCRACK. For a reason. That game is stinking addicting all on it's own.

I know it is SO VERY NOT FUNNY, but I laughed out loud when I read where he wanted to 'login to tell her to check mail' You can see/hear the total fogbabble in that line, that's the addict talking there.

So, did he delete the ACCOUNT. not just the email in it, but the whole stinking account!!! That phone? run it over, do something to totally destroy it. Cancel it too.

Remember this famous line. Your marriage can handle the anger, it can NOT handle the A.

Uninstall the game, and I mean everything to do with the game. Dump his toons out of the guild, personally, I would delete the characters, but I know that's an iffy one for a lot of people. I am serious about needing to give up that game. For ever most likely, if not a very very long time.

That way if he did decide to 'login' he'd have one heck of a time doing it on a spur of the moment kind of thing. Make it hard. Hide the authenticator. Password protect his computer, its an addict you are dealing with first. Good news though, they can get over the game far faster than the OP.

But yeah, he's going to be mad. Remember this second line.

You are not doing it to make him angry, you are doing it to save your marriage.


It's hard, but you know what? There are a LOT of better things to do in life than rot in front of that game. Yeah, I miss it a lot too.


Recreational companionship at it's finest in those games. Have to make it together time. Or it gets NO time.

I know that is where my stbxwh picked up several of his 'gamefairs'. The freaking sex phones, just why, that's it, Just want to know WHY. UGH.
Originally Posted by No_Stress_Zone
So, did he delete the ACCOUNT. not just the email in it, but the whole stinking account!!! That phone? run it over, do something to totally destroy it. Cancel it too.


Deleted the mail account in front of me, the phone was a prepaid - he hit it with a hammer until it shattered.

Now he's upstairs on the couch crying for her.

I want to vomit. Or die.
OK, I'm still up so will reply as a MB novice, but you'll get a lot more.

Look, Sera, ignore all the smashing of phones, crying, self-centered bull crap. It's all fog-babble, OK? All of it. "Stalking around" is equal to either a 2-year-old that had it's toy taken away or a herion adict that just had his crack-pipe taken away. Take your pick. He's going to be Linda Blair, OK? They ALL are, and nothing new. He'll throw things out at you like "I was going to try, but now I am done." All bull.

Oh, and he's crying outside now? Let that resonate with him. He's not crying over you (sorry) or her. He's crying because he got caught by 2 women that he's been enjoying, and he knows that's gone. This is a temporary state.

Stay cool, sister.

let him cry, he did AWESOME to delete the whole account and to smash the phone!!!! That is great news!

Did you uninstall the game yet? Make sure that is done TONIGHT!

By doing that so easily with the phone/email, I can't help but wonder if he's more missing the game than the girl in the game. It is that addicting. So get it uninstalled and block all websites such as worldofwarcraft and especially battle.net Just block them with parental controls.

It will get better but it will probably get worse first.
I think he thinks he was in love with her. He told me he's sorry he hurt me, but more sorry he didn't meet her at a 'different time'.

I don't know how I'm going to get through this. I was scheduled to be out of town M-W for business, but I'm going to cancel it - I know he can make contact if I'm here, but it will be harder, I hope.

How long does it take before the .. withdrawal .. ends? Ballpark?
OK, hard to fathom...but he's not crying over HER. He's sobbing over "IT". The feelings, thoughts, and right back to MBs...the ENs she met. Edit: "it" met in the form of a person.

Trust me here...he's NOT crying and sobbing over HER, Sera. He thinks he is?? Nope. He's sobbing cuz he's busted, and he has to face his real life now. He's sobbing because he has to face reality, and a part of that is that he knows that his crack pipe has just been removed and his reality is....

Stay cool.
The short end is at least several months. If you have seen no progress by about 3 months, assume C is ongoing. There should be a big change by that time.

By one year out, most all the fog should be gone.

It doesn't happen overnight, so do your best not to stress about where he is now. It's normal, and has no bearing on whether your M will make it. What he thinks now - even if he thinks he's in love with her - doesn't matter.

His viewpoint hurts you now, but it's irrelevant in the long run.
Too soon to think of Withdrwal, Sera. He is far too fogged at the moment.

You have a marathon in front of you. Good that you canx your trip, but if he's gonna contact her, your presence isn't going to make a hill of beans difference. Sorry!

Now, what is the plan to kill this affair?

I know you've had plenty of advise about exposure, so where does that stand? As long as the A is active, your next steps are for naught.
"He balked, wanted to ask her to wait for him, wow.

Deleted all the mail in his secret account, sent a fairly poor NC letter - wasn't open to input, just glad he did it at all. Did say he won't contact her, she shouldn't contact him. Came in the bedroom and cried. Told me he hated me. Smashed the phone too.

The wanted to login to Warcraft to tell her to check mail. I suggested shed do that anyway, and it defeated NC. Which he's obviously not committed to. (didn't say that part).

He stalked around like a lion with a thorn in his paw and is now outside, sitting. Probably crying and hating me.

I want to throw up. He's never been so mean. How does 2 months of an online fling with someone else's wife do this?"

This, to me says nothing of NC or exposure...

The laptop, where is the laptop? That's a BIG problem. If he will not give the password to it, HIDE IT. Friend's house, car trunk, don't matter where, HIDE IT. Better to get the password and change it.

Whew, on the ball park for withdrawel. My stbxh has played since the game started, the first time I tried to pry him away, it lasted oh, four months maybe? He found other things to do on the computer, that I finally figured out was just substituting...did some online racing etc. I had that comp locked down so tight Barney would not come thru the parental controls.

Of course, what I know NOW, tells me that was all a joke on my part. Yeah, I had his comp locked down, the laptop too. But that does not stop work computers, which I later found, was a fix for him. He could be good at home, he was getting the fix at work then.

When I realized that was going on, I just said, fine, you know what? You are an adult, screw up it's over, your choice. Grow up, man up or wimp out. He chose the wimp out. But that was four months of locked down, but not in any way NC since he got that at work.

You will have better luck if you make sure he can not easily get ON the game, and that the OWH knows, make darn sure you talk to HIM. And again, characters all out of the guild, etc.

Good luck hun.
She was going to tell her H. Have not been able to find him on WArcraft to confirm. Calling his parents tomorrow, with or without him. He claims he's going to disable his account - I will ask to confirm. Once I've contacted OWH, I will disable mine as well.

He's not committed to NC, I know that. I don't know what else to do. He took his ring off tonight. I didn't. I don't know how to get through this. It kills me to hear him out on the couch, sobbing for someone else.
and yes, you will notice I'm viewing this as every bit the game as much as the OW. MMORPG's and especially this game, have a very high rate of addiction, and we all know the addiction has to go before the affair can die out. Just in case anyone thinks I'm going hog wild on the game for no reason.

You guys are better at the MB stuff than I.
Originally Posted by Neak
1. Expect C. It will happen. He is not a broken man yet, only a tiny bit cracked around the edges. We can help you come up with a plan to deal with it when it happens.

The thing I'm worried about is how will I know? I guess I need to do some reading.
Seph,

I am chiming in again as I think you need a PLAN.

I am going to seek NeverGuessed's plan as it's 100% MBs. I feel like you are flapping out there in the wind with no plan, and that's going to destroy you and the chance of recovery.

You LB$ is going to be depleted very fast if you don't take some action.

Stand by...
Originally Posted by Seraph
She was going to tell her H. Have not been able to find him on WArcraft to confirm. Calling his parents tomorrow, with or without him. He claims he's going to disable his account - I will ask to confirm. Once I've contacted OWH, I will disable mine as well.

He's not committed to NC, I know that. I don't know what else to do. He took his ring off tonight. I didn't. I don't know how to get through this. It kills me to hear him out on the couch, sobbing for someone else.

Do NOT rely on HEr to tell her H. That will NEVER happen. Isn't he the guild leader? You need to get in there and let the guild know, they need to know so those guys can watch out, and also to drop his characters out of the guild, that all needs to be done. Don't make it easy for him to go back into it.

Cancel the subs now, and get ahold of OWH via the game forum if you have to, use the Armory or whatever it is now, they change it faster than well, too fast.

As for him crying, let him. I don't have a lot of sympathy there as you might notice ;d Mine lies with you, you have the chance to do this right, and save your marriage, something I never had the strength or knowledge to do.

So listen to the vets on what to do, beginning with exposure, far and wide, not just game, but family, friends, everyone that can or will or could know about it and be of any type of support.

Just know you are in a rough spot, and it's going to be hard. Don't try to do any shortcuts, just go for the throat and get it done! (((((HUGS)))))
Originally Posted by Surfer88
Seph,

I am chiming in again as I think you need a PLAN.

I am going to seek NeverGuessed's plan as it's 100% MBs. I feel like you are flapping out there in the wind with no plan, and that's going to destroy you and the chance of recovery.

You LB$ is going to be depleted very fast if you don't take some action.

Stand by...


Thank you. I nee something. I feel lost and hopeless but I'm not giving my family up.
I just posted an SOS for you to help develop a plan and get some control over this situation. I'm not qualified as I am just an observer here, but help will be on the way.

You're gonna have to be tough, hon. Ready?
Originally Posted by Surfer88
You're gonna have to be tough, hon. Ready?

I'd rather get to the end and wish I hadn't tried so hard than wish I'd tried harder. I'm ready, as much as I can be.
yeah, when I read you confirmed then dissappeared, I did not think it was to hunt down the plan unfortunately. Nothing to do but pick up the pieces on that now. Your family IS worth the fight, and it will be a fight Seraph....I won't lie to you there. On two fronts.

You CAN do it, I have no doubts of that.

Listen to what these vets tell you, and remember you are going to have to get rid of the warcrack addiction as well.

Remember, listen to the vets. they know the MB, I just happen to have far too much exp into that blasted game.
(((Seraph)))) Help is on the way. It's not going to be easy, but it'll be worth the fight, OK?
Originally Posted by Seraph
Originally Posted by Surfer88
You're gonna have to be tough, hon. Ready?

I'd rather get to the end and wish I hadn't tried so hard than wish I'd tried harder. I'm ready, as much as I can be.
hurray dance2 hug hurray

Thats the spirit!
Yep!!!
Seraph, as I said before, your WH is behaving exactly according to the script. All his blustering, crying, lashing out is to be expected. What do you do now?

Continue with your exposure, try and meet any emotional needs that he will let you meet, and stay calm. If you feel yourself falling apart, come here and vent, don't react to him.

Here's what Dr. Harley has to say about ending the affair:

Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
From chapter 13 HNHN's
Quote:
Step 1: End the Affair

The first step on the path to surviving an affair is for it to end. An affair ends when the straying spouse ceases all contact with his or her lover and never sees or talks to that person again. Time and again I've watched what happens when a drastic and decisive break with a lover is not made. They try to remain "friends" and maintain casual social contact. But inevitably they find their way back to their lover's arms. It seems that when it comes to this one person, they exhibit incredibly flawed judgment and almost irresistible force draws them back.

But even if there were to be no risk of rekindling an affair, if any contact continues, the affair still remains alive in the mind of the betrayed spouse. Since an affair is the most hurtful and selfish act that one spouse can inflict on the other, any contact restores the memory and perpetuates the pain. Wives have told me that their husband's affair was worse than being raped. Men have said their wife's affair was worse than losing a child. It's the ultimate betrayal.

For some, the affair ends the right way. The unfaithful spouse sends a letter to the lover that communicates how much suffering the affair caused the betrayed spouse and how thoughtless it was, a desire to rebuild the marriage, and that all contact would be terminated forever. The betrayed spouse reads the letter and approves of it before it's sent. After the letter is sent, extraordinary precautions that I'll explain in the next step are taken to avoid future contact with the lover.

<snip>

If your unfaithful spouse is unwilling to end an affair the right way, I know of a way to help speed up its demise: Expose it. Your own family should know: Your parents, your siblings, and even your children. The family of your spouse s lover should also know, especially the lover's spouse. The pastor of your church should be informed as well. Exposure of an affair is like opening a moldy closet to the light of day. Affairs do well when they're conducted in secret, but when they're in full view for all to see, they appear as they are -- incredibly foolish and thoughtless.

Even if exposure were to be ineffective in ending an affair, I'd recommend it anyway. The betrayed spouse needs as much support as possible, and exposure helps friends and relatives understand what's going on. Keeping an affair secret is no real help to anyone. But I've been amazed at how well it dismantles the illusion that affairs rest upon. Instead of assuming that the relationship is made in heaven, an unfaithful spouse quickly senses that it's a one-way ticket to hell on earth.

The first reaction of an unfaithful spouse to exposure is to try to turn the tables on the betrayed spouse. "I will never be able to forgive you for hurting me this way. Don't you ever think about how I'd be affected by this?" Of course, it's really the affair that hurts. The exposure simply identifies the source of the pain. The unfaithful spouse should be the one begging for forgiveness.

In spite of the suffering that an affair inflicts on a betrayed spouse, during this period of exposure he or she should try to make as many Love Bank deposits and as few withdrawals as possible. If you argue about the affair, you'll damage recovery. Insist on the unfaithful spouse s complete separation from the lover (no contact for life), but don't fight about it. I call this strategy to end the affair Plan A.

If exposure itself doesn't end the affair immediately, my advice regarding what to do next is usually different for husbands and wives. I encourage husbands to try to stick to avoiding arguments and meeting their unfaithful wives' basic needs (Plan A) as long as possible (six months to a year). But I usually encourage wives to separate after about three weeks if their husband is still in contact with his lover. My experience has taught me that the health of most women deteriorates quickly and significantly while living with an unfaithful husband. Men, on the other hand, tend to be able to weather the storm longer with fewer emotional or physical effects. I call the strategy of complete separation Plan B.

In addition to avoiding health problems, a separation also helps a betrayed spouse hang on to what remains in their spouse's Love Bank account. Daily interaction with an unfaithful spouse causes such large withdrawals, that a separation with no contact between spouses can actually help the marriage by temporarily freezing the betrayed spouse's Love Bank. When the affair is over, the betrayed spouse is less likely to divorce when the unfaithful spouse wants to give the marriage a chance to recover.

Yet another advantage to separation is that some of the basic needs met by the betrayed spouse suddenly disappear. This is especially true when a couple has children. An unfaithful spouse often overlooks the betrayed spouse's contribution to the family. While the lover may meet two basic needs that were unmet by the betrayed spouse, the betrayed spouse may have been meeting the other three that cannot be easily met by the lover. During a separation, the unfaithful spouse can become acutely aware of what he or she is missing.

So, right now two things you need to be doing:

1. finish the exposure without delay
2. try to make as many Love Bank deposits and as few withdrawals as possible

It's hard to even think about meeting his needs right now because of the way he is behaving but it is necessary. Don't let him draw you into an argument. Stay with your mantra, "I am doing whatever is necessary to fight for our marriage. Would you like a cookie dear?"

As for the game, it needs to go completely. Neither one of you need to be playing, especially since it was his method for hooking up with this OW.

You can do this. This is not happening because of your exposure, it is happening because of his affair. Remember that. You can own up to your part in any problems in the marriage, but his decision to have an affair is all on him. Got it?

Slept poorly. So did he, on the couch. I kept waking up to him talking to himself - and crying - about his OW. Went to check once to see if was having a nightmare, but other than that tried to ignore it. Little woozy from lack of sleep plus lack of food. Got up to check for OWH - no luck yet. Will keep trying

Eating oatmeal now - need to take better care of myself today. Trying to figure out a plan. Keep reminding myself that no matter how bad it gets, it will eventually get better.
You're doing brilliantly, I have such admiration!

((((((((Seraph)))))))))

He's still there for a reason. Because he doesnt want to go. Dont let his toddler tantrums distact you from that very basic fact. Be tough on him
Think I'm going to be posting a lot today. Ate some oatmeal. Not sure it will stay down.

Need some lines for when he gets angry, etc.

So far thinking of, "I will do whatever it takes to end your affair. Pass the cookies (or whatever)."

And, "I'm sorry you're hurting right now. I don't like to see you hurt. Please hand me that magazine."

Yesterday he told me OWs husband drinks, has "rage" issues, he's worried about her. I said, "I hope this provides the catalyst for them to get the help they need, then."

Avoiding saying anything bad about OW. Plan to avoid discussing the A as much as possible today. Will work on no LB and filling the ENs he will let me. Not many right now, but babysteps. Must remember that my ENs will not be met for a while, and make sure to take care of myself.
Hang on in there hunny, it's going to be a rollercoaster for a bit. The vets will be along with more suggestions and advice, I don't advise on MB stuff, but do support stuff!!

OW has probably told him all sorts, it's not uncommon for them to tell the odd lie to justify their action to each other!!

Like your rehersals, also saw something some while ago about waiting for the count of 15 before answering anything. Gives you time to think not run off at the mouth.

I am following along and thinking of you.

Do some nurturing things for you too, not just maintainance, ie swim, walk, massage, coffee with a friend, candlelit bath, they all say to your H that all will be well with you.

Then give him a cookie, try to avoid offering him a sweetie to stop his tantrums!! He is 3 today, treat him as such.....ignore bad behaviour, reward good!!
you watch the OW bail on your husband she won't mess up her whole life for someone she has only know for two months, she isn't stupid, your husband is just a fool to think what she told him is true, affairs happen with a lot of lies, you and he are believing what she said to be factual, my guess it is not ........
She is caught now and she will be back peddling for her life, you contact the OWH that is your first job, get him as an ally and then put a plan together to save your marriage, let your husband cry he should be crying............let him suffer the loss of what his decisions have caused everyone he is suppose to care about......
I would just say you have chosen to hurt yourself and your family and I am sad about that........just keep telling him you will do what it takes to save your marriage and the love you two once had..........
tell him that since he is not willing to give her up that he will have to move on with that life that he has chosen and that you will have no choice but to move on as well..........
Tell him you will leave the door open if he decides that the marriage is worth saving, but until that decision is made you cannot work on the marriage.......
come here all day long and vent, and read and educate yourself, everything he is doing and saying is normal wayward talk and behavior, it's like their candy has been taken away and they are little cry babies now..........
treat him like any other child you know..........
and remember this the thing he didn't count on was how smart you are and can be..............he expects you to lie down and give up and you will throw him off by being understanding and reasonable but firm with your boundaries..........
he will see you stepping up above yourself for him and being the stronger one right now carrying him when he can't walk himself............
tough I know, minute by minute.
jessi
Seraph - I think you're doing good.

WOW played a big part of my marriage breakdown as well. I never came close to having an affair with a person, rather my affair was with the game and I used it to escape reality.

I've been sober from the game since November 2009. I went cold turkey and went as far as to block the while Blizzard domain from my home router. WOW is an addiction. The same rush and thrill that drug addicts get is what I got from it.

My only advice is to keep him busy for the next couple of months. He's got the affair clouding his mind as well as the addiction to WOW. Plan A all the way and find ways to work the 20hrs of UA time in religiously every week. It can be done.

Good blessings and hang in there!
I talked to the OWH today. She had told him some things, but not all (like the phone sex, or their plans to meet).

He informed me she begged his forgiveness and promised not to contact my H anymore, and to work on things with them. OWH sent me email thanking me for telling him, and letting me know if I want to talk, he's here - and that OW knows he's talking to me.

I told him I think WH is going to try to contact her, and to please be vigilant - requested that she send an NC letter for me to send to him, and also that he tell me if there's contact, and I will do the same for him.

WH is out getting the tired on our car changed - got a nail. He's been mopey and cranky, glaring at me and coming down to the tv room to lay on the couch and cry. Half of me feels bad and the other half wants to vomit. I said, one time, "I'm sorry for the pain you're in", but other than that, I don't say anything. I'm not going to console him while he cries over OW.

WH changed the password for his cellphone account this morning - I'm not sure if I should confront him with that or not. Thoughts?
Yesterday he told me OWs husband drinks, has "rage" issues, he's worried about her. I said, "I hope this provides the catalyst for them to get the help they need, then."

Good one, Just keep that up. Her husband rages (if any) are not his problem. Sure not yours.
Serpah,
Hang in there, I know it is hard. Just wanted to tell you that I heard everything that you have heard in the last 24 hours in January. My husband told me he was so in love with the other woman that he would try to work it out with me but wanted to keep her on the side just in case. (ok so he really cared about her feelings huh)

Well, because I knew about her and made it so hard for them to contact SHE BROKE IT OFF WITH HIM LESS THAN A WEEK LATER!!!!

I had told her about the "keeping on the side" and she didnt like that too much.

He is with me now (he tried to get me to kick him out several times but i never did )and doing EVERYTHING I ask to keep me here. I have access to all phone records and passwords and we have made him new accounts and phone numbers where she cant contact him.

I just wanted to let you know that there is hope. It might get worst before it gets better but just remember the good times before this to keep you going untill you can make new good memories.

Also consider going to the doctor and asking for somthing to get you through. I dont personally recomend Anti-depressants as they are sooo hard to get off of but there are other things they can give you that are take as needed. I still have an anti-anxiety med that I can take when the triggers hit. They calm me down enough to remember that this too will pass.
Of course he is going to try to contact her. It is the addiction. He must decide to agree to NC or you may be considering plan B soon. But I'd give plan A a good go.

Good for you calling skanks' husband! Glad he is on board. You also need to get as much exposure as possible (his parents esp) and the guild and any friends and family.

Do the whole FB exposure if you can and if ow (bet she is) on FB.

I would blow this affair up sky high b/c aug is coming as well as that trip to see his "parents" when he was really going to probably dump off your kid on his parents and go see the skankho and carry the affair into a PA.

Don't feel sorry for him. It is like feeling sorry for the demon inside a person during an exorcism. It's not the real person talking. It's the demon! Just imagine Linda Blair and the pea soup when he spews angry stuff or cries for his pretend fantasy stupid affair.

If it were me, I would give OWH a heads' up and tell him that wh has changed his passwords and will probably try to contact her via cell or computer. make him be vigilant!!! Your wh is going to try to contact her.
Originally Posted by peachyisback
Of course he is going to try to contact her. It is the addiction. He must decide to agree to NC or you may be considering plan B soon. But I'd give plan A a good go.

He has "agreed", of a sort - he's deleted his secret account, broken his secret phone, disabled and uninstalled Warcraft from his home computer and work laptop. But not because he wants to work on things with me - he doesn't love me, doesn't want to be married with me, doesn't see this as an "affair" because to him it was "the next relationship because ours was over" (I got ILYBNILWY 2 weeks after they started up).

Originally Posted by peachyisback
I would blow this affair up sky high b/c aug is coming as well as that trip to see his "parents" when he was really going to probably dump off your kid on his parents and go see the skankho and carry the affair into a PA.

I'm planning to talk to his parents today, once they get home from Church.

Originally Posted by peachyisback
If it were me, I would give OWH a heads' up and tell him that wh has changed his passwords and will probably try to contact her via cell or computer. make him be vigilant!!! Your wh is going to try to contact her.


So it looks like I was wrong here - I made an assumption.

OWH mailed me to say OW wants to call WH to break things off. I suggested (several times) a NC letter, but OWH feels it's what they (OWH and OW) need to do in order to feel secure that she really has ended things. WH says it will "hurt, but help in the long run", and I think it's all a bunch of crap. However, provided that OWH is there and I am there when they have the conversation, *and* she calls my cell so she doesn't have his number, I think I will agree to it - I know any contact will set him back, but he's only gone 12 hours, so it's not much of a setback.
Originally Posted by Seraph
OWH mailed me to say OW wants to call WH to break things off. I suggested (several times) a NC letter, but OWH feels it's what they (OWH and OW) need to do in order to feel secure that she really has ended things. WH says it will "hurt, but help in the long run", and I think it's all a bunch of crap. However, provided that OWH is there and I am there when they have the conversation, *and* she calls my cell so she doesn't have his number, I think I will agree to it - I know any contact will set him back, but he's only gone 12 hours, so it's not much of a setback.

Seraph,

I am sorry all this is happening to you.

You are right, OW BH phone call idea is crap. I would still insist on a handwritten NC letter by your WH.

Just wanted to remind you NOT to believe ANYTHING that those two waywards say. If their lips are moving they are lying.
I learned that lesson the hard way.

Plan A while verifying NC.



Make sure you are both on the call with them or it is a way for them to contact to figure out the next game plan. For exmple, dont call me here call me (here). Dont email that address,,,,here is an new one..


You get the idea.
Originally Posted by LuvsDavid
Make sure you are both on the call with them or it is a way for them to contact to figure out the next game plan. For exmple, dont call me here call me (here). Dont email that address,,,,here is an new one..


You get the idea.


OWH and I both nixed the call idea. NC means NC. Closure is just nonsense.

Lots of rage today. Feel foolish for believing he was trying in MC.

But we weeded together for a while, he wrestled with DS, and we had "normal" conversation. I'm sure there will soon be another bout of anger, sobbing, talking about how he doesn't want to be with me. Hopefully not for a while.

Going to try to watch a movie at home tonight. May or may not invite him to join me.
I would at this time look and smell my best (plan A), cook his favorite meals, and try to be affectionate as best as you can and play to his top EN's.

Meanwhile, I'd go to Operation Investigate forum below this forum here, and learn some other snooping tricks. Like I told another bw here, he may have a secret cell phone and I'd have a var installed in his vehicle as well as near where his computer is.

However, he is behaving as if he is going thru initial stages of withdrawal. Good to have that backing of owskank's H with you!

His whole admission of "my next relationship" and it not being an affair shows he is skewed in his reality and that it WAS 100 PERCENT a sleazy affair.

His is so far, possibly only EA, but I'd further snoop and see if it has gone pa. Need I say he CANNOT GO SEE HIS PARENTS IN AUG ALONE? YOU have to go w/him and OWH needs to be WARNED that he is to visit their town in august! Both are enemies of the others' marriages. Treat ow and your wh as such.
So glad you decided no phone call before I could even get my 2x4 all the way out. grin Even with you on the line, it is a baaaaaaad idea.

You have gotten such good advice on what your actions need to be right now, and it sounds as if things are going well, considering.

It's so encouraging to hear that OWH is on his guard, and is now your ally. That is going to make your job much easier.

Took a nap. It really helped - I slept so poorly last night. Then I ate two small tomato & cheese quesadillas. Probably the most I've eaten in one sitting in a few days.

WH is in the bedroom - I think he's napping. He also slept poorly. He seemed a little cranky this afternoon. Hard to say if it's lack of sleep or lack of OW.

Having OWH in on things does make me feel better. I told him about their planned rendezvous - OW had already laid the groundwork by inventing a fake "weekend with friends from college". Needless to say he will not be allowing that. I do plan to go on the trip - haven't discussed it with him yet, however.

Not sure what the next few days will bring. Hoping that I can get a little more rest and eat a bit more - hard to be pleasant if your starving and sleepy.

He's been proactive about telling me what he's doing - after he got back from taking the car for an oil change, he showed me his phone (sent/received calls) and the looked the current usage up online to show me no funny business there.

I don't know. My heart hurts.
Of course it does. Because you are wonderful and caring. Keep it up Seraph! Sleep, eat, breathe deeply. Know that you are great. Get more support. Are people backing you beside OWH? Not sure where you are up to with exposure? It honestly does help a lot.
Bleh. Every time he starts being "nice" I wonder if he's contacted her. But it's likely just the ups and downs of withdrawals.
Originally Posted by Seraph
Bleh. Every time he starts being "nice" I wonder if he's contacted her. But it's likely just the ups and downs of withdrawals.

You cannot take his mood temperature every hour.
Well, you can, but there is no benefit.

Keep to Plan A.
Keep snooping.
Keep breathing.

He's a big old mess.
Do not set your plan according to his mess.

Did you read carrot/stick?
Any questions?

hug
Seraph, you are getting excellent advice and support here. And it sounds like you are doing so well, given the circumstances.

Not to add too much to your plate right now, but I would strongly, STRONGLY caution against this trip in August. It's too soon, and there is waaaaaaay too much temptation there. Just...no. Not worth the risk, IMHO, unless there are extremely dire circumstances re: family to which you need attend.

Keep up the hard work - you're doing brilliantly.
Originally Posted by Mrs_Vanilla
Seraph, you are getting excellent advice and support here. And it sounds like you are doing so well, given the circumstances.

Not to add too much to your plate right now, but I would strongly, STRONGLY caution against this trip in August. It's too soon, and there is waaaaaaay too much temptation there. Just...no. Not worth the risk, IMHO, unless there are extremely dire circumstances re: family to which you need attend.

Keep up the hard work - you're doing brilliantly.


I'm planning to go with. I'm also planning to expose to his parents so they can help. I hope they will, anyway.
Originally Posted by Pepperband
You cannot take his mood temperature every hour.
Well, you can, but there is no benefit.

Keep to Plan A.
Keep snooping.
Keep breathing.

He's a big old mess.
Do not set your plan according to his mess.

Did you read carrot/stick?
Any questions?

hug


I think I'm doing ok. I've been pleasant in conversation and attitude, no relationship talk (except one which he initiated). He's not wearing his wedding ring (as of me exposing the affair to OWH yesterday), and also no longer sleeping in our bed (also as of yesterday).

We played a game with DS, which was fun. I told WH I'm planning to watch a movie tonight and he's welcome to join me - he seemed interested.

He's still adamant that our relationship is over, he's done with me, etc, but at least he's being pleasant.
I 2nd the NOT going on the trip even if you go with him. You would both be thinking about what the trip was originally planned for. I think that would be too soon to test those triggers.
A great example of fog responses :

WH: Our marriage is over!
You: Yep, our old marriage is dead and gone. (smile) Want a cookie?
Originally Posted by Neak
WH: Our marriage is over!
You: Yep, our old marriage is dead and gone. (smile) Want a cookie?

I love that! Where can I find more fog responses? Searching isn't helping.
Originally Posted by Seraph
I love that! Where can I find more fog responses? Searching isn't helping.

You agree with WH and twist his nonsense to suit you.

WH: I'm not sure I ever really loved you.
You: Me too! (smile smile ) Our love is that special.

You confuse him and stay cheerful. You do not need to make sense when WH says dumb stuff. Stay positive. He's speaking alien tongue.
I'm hoping someone knows where it is. I'm walking out the door and won't be able to look for it myself.
Seraph, I'm sorry I'm late to this thread, but I wanted to say this before we got much further along......

You're doing great!

As the roller coaster dips, flip, whirls, and dives for the immediate future keep repeating that to yourself.

Why "Great"?
  • Your "gut" gave you the sense of unease very quickly (2 months?) into your husband's A
  • You knew enough to ignore his protestations and persist in your discovery efforts.
  • You succeeded in verifying the A, contacting the other BS, and begin building the wall both of you BSs are going to have to construct, monitor, and confer on.
  • You have NOT become either a "screaming mimi", or "devastated lump", which all too often results from discovery.
  • By ending the WoW access, you have caused WH to leave his "job" he shared with AP.
Your husband will soon come to appreciate how well you handled this crisis.

All that said, now get back to work!

He says right now that he does not love you. I believe right now, that would be accurate. You have been supplanted in his affections by the mythical being he created, mostly in his mind, from the person of AP.

So what emotions is he likely experiencing?
  • Loss. He doesn't get to interact with AP anymore. (and you and OWH will ENSURE that, right?)
  • Shame. Yes, he'll hide it behind belligerence, but it is there.
  • Resentment. Your action (however proper) deprived him of his fantasy "happy place".
You cannot help him through the first directly. You're going to have to sneak up on it with EN-satisfaction (a la Plan A), and re-assume your rightful place in his heart. This part is NOT for him, but for you. You (we?) need absolute, brutal candor. In 20+ years of marriage, you had to be aware of faults in your marriage, some HE could have mended, some YOU could have. Identify them. Make plans NOW to fix them (and if possible, start fixing them as he continues through withdrawal.

You're going to have to continue exposure, to those folks that have importance to your WH, and can help "re-educate" him on his responsibilities. Be very careful here. He (and you) are actually behaving more along the lines of a BH/WW pair than a traditional WH/BW. (Which, I guess, is why S88 "popped a flare" for me?) You do NOT want to elevate the level of shame too much.

As far as resentment you must apply a constancy in your reponses to his "Why did you do this?" moments. Whatever your personal style, it should come accross as "I love you so much, and value our marriage so dearly, that I am willing to go to any lengths to give us a chance at recovery to a better marriage than we had."

Originally Posted by Seraph
Originally Posted by Neak
WH: Our marriage is over!
You: Yep, our old marriage is dead and gone. (smile) Want a cookie?

I love that! Where can I find more
fog responses? Searching isn't helping.



nESRE
Thanks, everyone, for the input.

Last night was ok - watched Star Trek together. Had a short conversation in which I said, "I'm nervous you or OW will try to contact each other tomorrow. What can we do to make me feel better?"

He said he wasn't planning to contact, but would tell me if he did, and would tell me if she does. Of course, I can't *believe* that, but at least he took the conversation well. He asked if I wanted to keep tailing about it, and I said, "no, just wanted to be open and honest about my concerns. Thanks for being willing to talk.". He seemed oddly surprised by that.

At one point during Star Trek, he asked if I was ok. I took a full 10 seconds before I could say, "of course!" in a believable way. (I thought shouting, "Are you mental? How on earth could I be ok?!" but realized that was a bad idea.)

Ay bedtime, he said, completely out of the blue, "is that why you offered to sleep on the couch last night? So you could keep an eye on my laptop?". I was taken aback, but just said, "no ... I was just offering to be nice when I saw you had bedded down there."

A few minutes later he said, "I guess I can try to sleep in the bed tonight. If I can't sleep and wind up keeping you awake, I can go to the couch". I said, "it's no different than the last month, is it, sleeping with the wall of blanket between us.". He said, "I guess not."

I had taken a sleeping pill and gotten so little sleep I was out in about 30 seconds, and slept a full 8 hours, somewhat was nice.
Time for a few naughty drive-bys. Bend over in front of him, say something a little racy as you walk by so he doesn't have a chance to respond (or not respond), that sort of thing. Wear adorable nighties to bed.

Don't make SF an immediate goal, rather just to tease him and start to turn his interest back to you.
I stayed home today. He seemed "concerned", and asked if I had a headache or was just sad. Imsaid I didn't think I'd be very effective at work feeling how I do.

As he was leaving, he said something like, "let me know how you're doing later."

Looking at his search history today, I can see he googles "covenant marriage" (not sure why, we don't have one), then "group on getaways", then about an hour later, "(our state) divorce". He looked at 4 pages in the search results, including the documents.

Needless to say I'm pretty shaken up, but don't think asking him about that is the right idea. Thoughts? Positivie thinking? Help?
Originally Posted by Neak
Time for a few naughty drive-bys.

Get his attention.
Neak is an expert in this area.
(You saw what I posted above, right? We might have been posting at the same time.)

You're right to ignore that stuff for now, unless he brings it up. He's all over the map right now, and you'll go crazy trying to follow him. However, should he raise the subject....

WH: I've been doing some research on D's in our state. What do you think?
You: I've been doing some research about M's in our state. Wait till I show you what I learned about SF! (Then wink and walk away.)

Another great stock reply to have ready when the subject of D comes up is a calm, "I don't do D. I only do M." And change the subject.
Quote
Neak is an expert in this area.

blush blush blush
Originally Posted by Neak
(You saw what I posted above, right? We might have been posting at the same time.)

You're right to ignore that stuff for now, unless he brings it up. He's all over the map right now, and you'll go crazy trying to follow him. However, should he raise the subject....

WH: I've been doing some research on D's in our state. What do you think?
You: I've been doing some research about M's in our state. Wait till I show you what I learned about SF! (Then wink and walk away.)

Another great stock reply to have ready when the subject of D comes up is a calm, "I don't do D. I only do M." And change the subject.


Thanks. This is good. I need to not let myself get clouded.

I got a mail from him and it looked like he had changed it from having me as "pet name" to "first name lastname". Turns out I was mistaken, but I had already mailed him asking about it. He responded and explained.

A bit later I just said, "thanks. I shouldn't have sent email. Sorry"

He said, no it has to be ok to ask him about stuff.

I just hate this. I just want my husband back, not this horrible hurtful alien. And when I see glimpses of my husband, that somehow hurts more.
I love the banter that we can exchange on this site - comebacks, ripostes, etc - but however witty they come across here, they VERY EASILY can appear flippant and inadequately serious to a spouse who is in serious turmoil, mentally and emotionally. If there is ANY chance of that interpretation, save it and tell us HERE.

Remember, you're dealing with your lives and futures, not some episode of "Friends". Without a pre-arranged laughtrack, the line might come across as crass.
Thanks, NeverGuessed. I'm just using these ideas as jumping off points and adapting them to my style/the situation.

He just called to say that he hopes I'm ok. He asked why I was sad. I said I don't want a divorce. He said he still does. He wants to be friends for our son's sake. Decided that the phone was not the time to argue about that. Told him we'd talk more when he got home.

He told me he had a missed call from OW - he's certain it was from her work phone. He didn't call her back, but he wanted to.

I told him I would have to tell OWH - he said he knew that. I thanked him for being honest.

I don't even know what to do now.
I'm calling his parents right now. He was going to, but didn't yesterday and I'm not willing to wait anymore.
Something very important that might have been passed by...

Agree with what Neak said about your husband being all over the place right now, so don't put to much stock in what he says or his actions right now.

I'm specifically talking about the internet search for divorce laws. Say nothing right now, the more he learns the more he might be pulled back to reality.

But, at some point and especially if he brings it up in a serious conversation, you are going to have to address the possibility of divorce with him. And when that convo happens, you need to squash the idea of a "FANTASY DIVORCE"!

What do I mean about a fantasy divorce? Waywards get the idea that they can have a quick and friendly divorce, remain friends with their ex-spouse, get together for Sunday dinners, trips, holidays, and also be free to carry on and rut with their affair partner. Some are even so deluded they think that the affair partner and ex-spouse can even be "friends" (pardon me while I puke).

When this conversation comes up, in a very straight forward and unemotional way, be sure to let him know it will never go down that way. Tell him you will fight the divorce at every turn, and fight for every minute of custody, for every dime of child support and alimony, that you will get a bulldog attorney and make his and his partner's life a living hell. There will be no "friends" after divorce, you will go completely dark and keep him totally out of your life.



A few minutes later he said, "I guess I can try to sleep in the bed tonight. If I can't sleep and wind up keeping you awake, I can go to the couch". I said, "it's no different than the last month, is it, sleeping with the wall of blanket between us.". He said, "I guess not."

I had taken a sleeping pill and gotten so little sleep I was out in about 30 seconds, and slept a full 8 hours, somewhat was nice. [/quote]

Anybody else think he was reaching out alittle there? Sounded like he wanted to hear her say she wanted him in bed. Maybe hold off on the sleeping pills alittle longer?
I called his parents. Only his mom was home. I told her the whole sordid story - including any bad things I did earlier in the relationship. We talked for about an hour. She was totally flabbergasted. She agreed that his affair needs to stop, and he needs to work on the marriage. She said if he said he's done, maybe he's done. I said, "Well, he's in the midst of an affair, and I think he's depressed but he won't get help, so I'd like him to just .. not make any decisions right now in the state he's in."

She said several times that they will encourage him to end the affair and work on his marriage.

He's going to be furious at me, but given he's already told me today he wants a divorce, I don't see how it can get worse.
Originally Posted by LuvsDavid
Anybody else think he was reaching out alittle there? Sounded like he wanted to hear her say she wanted him in bed. Maybe hold off on the sleeping pills alittle longer?


Maybe I'm just feeling hopeless, considering he told me this morning he wants a divorce, but I don't see that?
As a newbie, im willing to be corrected but think LuvsDavd is right about the reaching out.

My WH was really annoying about fantasy divorce type scenarios while I was plan Aing him in the run up to exposure. However every now and then I'd get surprising, tentative 'do you want me' signals from him.

I think they start to despise themselves, think they can never be loved or trusted again and in some part try to be reconciled to 'the inevitable'. However the part of him that doesnt really want to go is hoping to hear some love and admiration.
So, given that he's going to be furious when I tell him I talked to his mom, I could use some input on how to handle it.

I'm expecting, "You had no right to do that - they are my parents and it was for me to call them."

Thinking of "You had an opportunity to call them yesterday, and didn't. I was hurting and I wanted their support for our marriage."

I don't think I'll get "I was going to try but now I'm not", but I might get "Did you think it would change anything? I don't love you! I don't want to be married to you!"

Thinking for that I'll say, "Yes, you've mentioned that. But I love you and I want to be married to you and I want their help in that goal."

Any others I should be ready for?
So, given that he's going to be furious when I tell him I talked to his mom, I could use some input on how to handle it.

At 9:12 this morning I gave you the outline of your ONLY response to those kinds of questions:

"I love you so much, and value our marriage so dearly, that I am willing to go to any lengths to give us a chance at recovery to a better marriage than we had."

Of course a REALLY wily wife would:
- be on the phone with his Mom when he gets home,
- hand him the phone saying, "Mom wants to talk to you".
- get back to cooking his favorite, once-a-year meal. (And yes, Neak, in a see-through peignoir set! Happy?)
Indie im just looking at it from where my husband was. He didn't think I could ever want him again and asked me to kick him out on several occations. I told him I was not making it easy and if he wanted to leave he had to decide that.....he never stepped out the door.

He wanted the reasurance that I was willing to love him if he fully came back to me. See if he has to give her up and you are not willing then he is alone. Plan A is all about showing him how good it will be when you both work together.

Sepha, take these opportunities when they come even if you feel like it will not help. You may be happy with he results.
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
So, given that he's going to be furious when I tell him I talked to his mom, I could use some input on how to handle it.

At 9:12 this morning I gave you the outline of your ONLY response to those kinds of questions:

"I love you so much, and value our marriage so dearly, that I am willing to go to any lengths to give us a chance at recovery to a better marriage than we had."

Of course a REALLY wily wife would:
- be on the phone with his Mom when he gets home,
- hand him the phone saying, "Mom wants to talk to you".
- get back to cooking his favorite, once-a-year meal. (And yes, Neak, in a see-through peignoir set! Happy?)


Well, his mom is going to call me when his dad gets home, so there's a possibility that will happen anyway.

He's not really interested in how I look, but I did do my hair and am wearing an outfit which looks good on me without looking like I'm "trying" to hard.

I will remember my 'go to' quote. You know, although I've said "I want to be married to you, I don't want to divorce, I want us to try", I haven't said "I love you" in a few weeks. I couldn't stand that I would hear "I don't love you" in return. I won't go to saying it often, just in response to things like the one above.
Originally Posted by Seraph
He's not really interested in how I look, but I did do my hair and am wearing an outfit which looks good on me without looking like I'm "trying" to hard.

I started wearing my H's shirts.
Not his Tee shirts, his button down long sleeve shirts.
I rocked that look.
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
So, given that he's going to be furious when I tell him I talked to his mom, I could use some input on how to handle it.

At 9:12 this morning I gave you the outline of your ONLY response to those kinds of questions:

"I love you so much, and value our marriage so dearly, that I am willing to go to any lengths to give us a chance at recovery to a better marriage than we had."

Of course a REALLY wily wife would:
- be on the phone with his Mom when he gets home,
- hand him the phone saying, "Mom wants to talk to you".
- get back to cooking his favorite, once-a-year meal. (And yes, Neak, in a see-through peignoir set! Happy?)


Love it
Thoughts on exposing to his brother? He's about 4 years younger than WH, military guy, wife, 2 kids - I'd like to get his support in suggesting that WH maintain his NC and work on the marriage.

I'm not sure how to proceed - he's agreed to NC, for the sake of our son, but doesn't want to work on the marriage - still wants to divorce.

Am trying to Plan A, but not finding a lot of information on this particular scenario.
When I was plan A-ing I got coached through step by step. I think the suggestions of nice food and little nighties are your jumping off point. Vets?
Originally Posted by Seraph
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
So, given that he's going to be furious when I tell him I talked to his mom, I could use some input on how to handle it.

At 9:12 this morning I gave you the outline of your ONLY response to those kinds of questions:

"I love you so much, and value our marriage so dearly, that I am willing to go to any lengths to give us a chance at recovery to a better marriage than we had."

Of course a REALLY wily wife would:
- be on the phone with his Mom when he gets home,
- hand him the phone saying, "Mom wants to talk to you".
- get back to cooking his favorite, once-a-year meal. (And yes, Neak, in a see-through peignoir set! Happy?)


Well, his mom is going to call me when his dad gets home, so there's a possibility that will happen anyway.

He's not really interested in how I look, but I did do my hair and am wearing an outfit which looks good on me without looking like I'm "trying" to hard.

I will remember my 'go to' quote. You know, although I've said "I want to be married to you, I don't want to divorce, I want us to try", I haven't said "I love you" in a few weeks. I couldn't stand that I would hear "I don't love you" in return. I won't go to saying it often, just in response to things like the one above.


Would it help to picture him as a toddler? He says I HATE you and you (patient sigh) well I love you... (#9you little..!!!888)

Wait till you're stronger though..

BTW the divorce talk is rubbish.
I toyed with my wife's dirndl skirts and peasant blouses, but the hairy legs and chest ruined that fashion idea for THOUSANDS of onlookers.

Sorry, Seraph, but it has been a loooooong day.
NG - Wondering what you meant about "more like a BH/WW" and "be careful with the shame"?
Plan A is plan A. It is the same no matter the senario. Everyone looks at there senario is different when looking out from your point of view but all affairs are basically the same.

Why do you think we can tell you almost word for word what will come out of his mouth next?

Remember at this point you are going to have to do all the work ( I know that is not fair) . Once he is out of the fog you can back off and let him do some heavy lifting and plan a you back.

Just stay calm and make home the best place in the world for him to be. He will get it eventually.
Quote
As a newbie, im willing to be corrected but think LuvsDavd is right about the reaching out.

That's why this is the perfect time for some teasing and flirting. It shows that he's still desirable, and begins to turn his interest toward home. SF is almost certainly in his top 3 EN's, ditto admiration. This will make double deposits, without even necessarily going all the way.

Quote
Happy?

Fabuloso!
Originally Posted by Neak
That's why this is the perfect time for some teasing and flirting. It shows that he's still desirable, and begins to turn his interest toward home. SF is almost certainly in his top 3 EN's, ditto admiration. This will make double deposits, without even necessarily going all the way.

Definitely admiration and SF are his top 2 needs. Every time I've attempted to "flirt" in any way, he seems to become uncomfortable and awkward, like he wants me to stop.
Originally Posted by Seraph
Originally Posted by Neak
That's why this is the perfect time for some teasing and flirting. It shows that he's still desirable, and begins to turn his interest toward home. SF is almost certainly in his top 3 EN's, ditto admiration. This will make double deposits, without even necessarily going all the way.

Definitely admiration and SF are his top 2 needs. Every time I've attempted to "flirt" in any way, he seems to become uncomfortable and awkward, like he wants me to stop.


Bingo.
button down shirts!!!! worked for me still does! going to put one on now! hes at a golf outing..... also the silly little i call the 1950 wifey things... meet him at the door. drove him crazy still does. i think the catholic church put out a list of good wife things, reading them makes me want to puke but what was the diviorce rate in the 50's. ok vets hit me. i am NOT that person.

he definately gave you an opening with the bed thing. olive branch was put out there.
Originally Posted by chickadee1
he definately gave you an opening with the bed thing. olive branch was put out there.


Ok, so I missed that one. How do I make up for it? What next?
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by Seraph
Definitely admiration and SF are his top 2 needs. Every time I've attempted to "flirt" in any way, he seems to become uncomfortable and awkward, like he wants me to stop.


Bingo.


Ack, so cryptic! What does that mean? My head is spinning - oatmeal and cheerios are not enough to keep a grown woman running, but they're all I can keep down.
You made him uncomfortable because he found you attactive and interesting.......he didn't want to feel that because he told you he didn't feel that way about you. He is not sure how he feels right now and you can expect that for awhile.

You got through a small crack in his wall. Keep at it.

As far as missing the boat, invite him to bed tonight. Just put out your hand and ask him. If he declines ask him if you can get him anything before you go bed and end it.....don't push him or say anything but goodnight and give him a small peck.
Originally Posted by LuvsDavid
As far as missing the boat, invite him to bed tonight. Just put out your hand and ask him. If he declines ask him if you can get him anything before you go bed and end it.....don't push him or say anything but goodnight and give him a small peck.


We haven't done any kissing (quick peck or otherwise) in over a month. The last time we hugged was 2 weeks ago, and that was just because I was crying - the last time he hugged me for any reason other than that was a month ago.

Not sure how to 'casually' do this, but will try.

Not sure how he'll take exposure, either. Guess we'll see.
"I guess I can try to sleep in the bed tonight. If I can't sleep and wind up keeping you awake, I can go to the couch". I said, "it's no different than the last month, is it, sleeping with the wall of blanket between us.". He said, "I guess not."

translation
i guess-= if you want me too.= yes honey i would love you to. you will not keep me awake, if i am awake we can snuggle.

should have been quiet, you response was negative, sorry. its easy to see after
Originally Posted by chickadee1
"I guess I can try to sleep in the bed tonight. If I can't sleep and wind up keeping you awake, I can go to the couch". I said, "it's no different than the last month, is it, sleeping with the wall of blanket between us.". He said, "I guess not."

translation
i guess-= if you want me too.= yes honey i would love you to. you will not keep me awake, if i am awake we can snuggle.

should have been quiet, you response was negative, sorry. its easy to see after


That's a good point - except the snuggling. He's specifically said he doesn't want to hug me because it feels "weird" and "forced" and doesn't want to be with me. Of course, that was during the A, but he's only 2 days into NC, so I can't imagine anything has changed.
He will take it like a 3 year old that got told on but that os ok. The madder he is means that exposure is doing its job.

The peck does not have to be as casual as you are thinking. You want him to realize you did it. Just don't go overboard. You have to try to meet his needs and baby steps are the only way right now.

He will balk if you walk up and say " hey baby let's have some st" but he will not have time to balk at a peck....he wont have time to respond before you are off to bed.

Maybe if he declines say "ok, (peck)door not locked" then goto bed.
he does want to be with you at least he did give you an opening... I guess I can try to sleep in the bed tonight,===== he asked you.... LD - the door is not locked, love it.

wear his button down to bed.... ooh let him see you go to bed in it...
Originally Posted by Seraph
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by Seraph
Definitely admiration and SF are his top 2 needs. Every time I've attempted to "flirt" in any way, he seems to become uncomfortable and awkward, like he wants me to stop.


Bingo.


Ack, so cryptic! What does that mean? My head is spinning - oatmeal and cheerios are not enough to keep a grown woman running, but they're all I can keep down.

Seraph

WH's want their BS's when they have the goods (Info/future plans w/o you) on them to be angry evil raving bi@@@es so they can really feel wonderful they decided to be with the OW, have you both, or file for D.

In Plan A you are confusing the He!! out of him by showing restraint of your emotions even with all this new found knowledge.

When my W called me over 20 years ago and said Hey baby can we give this another try (our M) I thought it was her trying to sucker me in and then spit me out. I kept a distance for about 3 months by living in an apt. by myself and only dating my W. We were already seperated and when that call came was about a week before I was to move with the OW to an apt.

Instead I moved alone. No MB's back then for us but my W did a pretty good Plan A on me. I couldn't figure out the flirtation and it was ackward with her knowing the plans I had with the OW. Confused me because I expected ranting and raving (wife from He!!) to come out. She did a few times but not enough or long enough to keep us apart.

Keep her (Wife from He!! ) locked up as much as possible and vent here. YOUR payoff will be shortly down the road depending how sucsessful you follow the plans.

I got lots of cookies and chips. And eventually "A little" dance2because my DD was born in 1993.


Listen and try to follow what is being told here. You have excellant posters following you that suggest the most amazing ideas to baffle waywards.

nESRE
If you wear his shirt make sure you have a good comeback when he asks why you are wearing it..... my husband would ask.

Something like "it smells like you" or just plain " my nightgown was dirty" if you think the first one was too soft.

I vote for option #1 myself.
The more uncomfortable he is, the more offhand you need to be. That's why drive-bys of any sort are good. You toss something out for him to see, whether verbal or nonverbal, but you have moved on to a different area without even waiting to see what he makes of it.

It takes the pressure off him to respond, and kind of leaves him wondering.
He had a bad day today, he says. Missing the OW, and knows it hurts me that he's sad for another woman. I thanked him for recognizing that it hurt me. He asked if there was anything about the affair I wanted to know. I said no, details would just hurt.

I also told him I talked to his mom. He was bothered, but not actively angry. Said he had wanted to do it, but he hoped I got some relief from my pain. I told him I had asked his mom to encourage him to try to recover our marriage, if that's something they believe in.

Told him I love him very much and will go to any lengths to give us a chance to recover and have a better marriage than the one we have. He looked sad/pained and said that sounded like a threat. I said it wasn't, I just wanted him to know that despite his statements that he doesn't love me, I love him and think he's a wonderful person and still want to rebuild a marriage with him.

He said he's sorry for the hurt he caused me, we caused each other, and he has so many regrets.

I said we didn't need to cover old ground, I had just wanted him to know. Then I got up to go get dinner for DS.

A short while later, while he was in the kitchen, I asked if the shirt he was wearing was one of the new ones. He said yes. I said, "I like it on you" and then left the room to get my phone.

Now he's researching pill holders for his supplements. Before he started, he said, "I'm getting on my laptop to research pill holders", which I thanked him for.
Very nicely done.

At this stage of his...re-orientation?...every day that he DOESN'T take a major step to distance himself from you and your family is another day in which his mind can work to accept that where he IS is where he SHOULD BE. Stay cool, stay committed and stay in touch.

BTW you DO know how encouraging is his telling you what he was going online to do, don't you?
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
Very nicely done.

At this stage of his...re-orientation?...every day that he DOESN'T take a major step to distance himself from you and your family is another day in which his mind can work to accept that where he IS is where he SHOULD BE. Stay cool, stay committed and stay in touch.

BTW you DO know how encouraging is his telling you what he was going online to do, don't you?


Yes, I do. I try to remind myself that it's some small show of caring - if he doesn't want to be with me and just wants a relationship where we "co-parent" our DS, he wouldn't care about making me feel safe about NC.

It's not much, but it's something.
baby steps hurray

put his shirt on after he takes it off...

try it,


"He said he's sorry for the hurt he caused me, we caused each other, and he has so many regrets. "

regret and shame are hard for men, i am sure for women too, but by nature men need to fix it and when they have f up they dont know what to do.

good job..you are fine....


my 2 cents- which i am always unconfortable posting bc i was in the same situation. but we are working on it together.
Great job!
sorry we posted same time

if he doesn't want to be with me and just wants a relationship where we "co-parent" our DS, he wouldn't care about making me feel safe about NC.

chin up... he wouldnt be in the house if that were true, he wouldnt tell you about going online. all positive steps.... baby steps.

you have to be more positive- it will make you feel better.

have you put the shirt on?
Called his parents. The encouraged him tom keep trying. His father urged him several times not to make hasty decisions - told him he would regret it. They were firm on the OW thing, too - simply said "you can't do that. You cannot".

His father told him that he is the head of the house, and he should be protecting the family.

WH reiterated that our marriage is over, he doesn't love me, this is not fixable.

Anyway. Not sure any got through, but maybe there's something for him to think about.
This is fantaastic, you're doing so well.
Oh what a long way you have come.

FWIW it seems he's fumbling his way out of the fog. He has found himself in a pretty scary place and he is a bloke, they don't tend to process things the way women do.

Give him time, show him a gentle side but don't get sucked into the drama......you have been doing a brilliant job so far.

Read lots, breathe, look after your health, treat yourself to something that makes you feel good.

He is lost right now.....chances are he will also start to feel pretty stupid soon as well. Then he will need your support not your anger or hurt.

I know thats unfair but thats the role we have, us strong amazing women.

Hang on in there hun

Blessings
NG - Wondering what you meant about "more like a BH/WW"

Here is a reference from another thread (Tom1006) that I posted:

Women don't stop feeling for their new loves when their physical access is cut off. They pine away in their minds, hoping for that magic rekindling. Her disinterest in restoring your marriage is concrete evidence that she's in that "waiting" state.

Empirically, this "dormant longing" is much more prevalent among "disrupted" WWs than WHs. But from what you've posted here, your WH currently has a bad case.

"be careful with the shame"?

The goal of MB is to return you to a strong, vibrant marriage, with a husband you can love and respect. Part of that process usually involves exposure to end the affair, so the rebuilding can begin. The exposure is recommended to be ruthless and comprehensive, to kill the affair, and almost always results in the shaming of the APs. But, that is a side-affect that must be endured. If, however the affair is dead and/or dying, exposure will create the shame without purpose, which delays recovery, as the WS will view it as "spiteful".

That is what I was trying to communicate. Telling Mom and Dad would have been vital, and you've seen some returns on that inmvestment. You should judge how much wider to go.
The guild people are a must in my book. If they don't know, they may unwittingly help with a break in NC.

A billboard is not necessary at this point. wink
Seraph,

For what it is worth, when my husband left me for his second Other Woman so many years ago....


He said this:


"I don't love you, I never did love you, and I never will love you."


Three months later he was back. Because he loves me.



Waywards are stupid. And, they lie.


Do not listen to what he says. Watch his actions, because those actions speak to his thoughts. Listen more to his "afterthoughts", also. Allow him to talk to you, and do not reply to him for at least 10 to 15 seconds after he has said anything. Leave that space in there. He WILL fill it up.

And in that space between is where he will allow himself to spill over the truth. He won't be able to help himself. That's where you find what he is really thinking about, because the overflow effect in those 15 seconds is something he can't help.


Wait for it. Count those seconds in your head, and keep your mouth absolutely shut for them.

If he comments on something, keep it quiet.

If he asks you a question, keep it quiet.


(And if he asks if you heard him, just say, "Oh, I was listening to you, and wasn't sure if you were done." or...."I was thinking about my answer, sorry!" smile )





SB
Woke up around 4am. He was awake - couldn't tell if he was crying or not. He did a lot of heavy sighing, and I finally said, "I love you very much and I'm sorry you're hurting."

He was quiet for a bit, then said he wasn't sad for OW right now - he had been thinking about us. He reiterated everything he's said before - we're too broken, we've hurt each other too much, we can never trust each other again. I just kept quiet, telling myself, "Be still. This is nothing he hasn't said before.".

I did, at one point, say, "I love you very much and I'm sorry for all the hurt and damage to our relationship that I have caused.". He went on a bit about how he wished we had fixed it "when it was fixable".

He did say that he misses OW, though it comes and goes, and he thinks it "will for a while". He said he knows that hurts me, and he's sorry. He said it was very hard not to call her yesterday - it "went against" everything he wanted.

I said, "Thank you for not calling her."

I really didn't say much - I just let him talk, but as I said, it was nothing he hasn't said before.

I drove him to work today so I can have the car. He thanked me for that.

Anyway. Trying to convince myself there's hope, but not feeling it right now.
It will take while for him to see that it IS fixable. The fact that he is starting to talk about wishing it was fixed is good but expect backsliding a bit. He is still in fog and withdrawal.

You are doing good. Just remember vent here because you will want to but he is not ready to hear it. If you vent to him it will just re-inforce his feelings that he hate him and can't fix it.
OWH just contacted me to tell me OW thinks she and WH are "in love" and he doesn't trust them not to break NC.

Suggested these forums for him to start getting advice.
And now OWH has just informed me that he and OW are going to separate. Which leaves the path clear for WH to go after her.

I don't even know what to do now.
OWH has just informed me that he and OW are going to separate.

That stinks. All that discussion about "calibrating" the exposure range is about to fly out the window with WH's next contact with skank.

This is what I have prepared for BHs, and you're about to need it in a hurry. Make the gender adjustments, and implement the snooping portions through Step 8 ASAP.

1- KEEP ALL THESE ARRANGEMENTS SECRET FROM YOUR WAYWARD WIFE!
2 ļæ½ Put a keylogger on any computer you can access that she might use.
3 ļæ½ Put ļæ½Flexispyļæ½ on any cellphone that she might use.
4 ļæ½ Put a GPS on her car, reporting to your computer.
5 ļæ½ Put a VAR in her car, and in any room she might use to take ļæ½personalļæ½ calls
6 ļæ½ Get a mini-audio-recorder, and have it in your possession and ļæ½onļæ½ whenever in her presence.
7 ļæ½ Put together an e-address list of anyone who might have influence on her ļæ½ parents, siblings (sisters, especially), coworkers, college friends, clergy, hairdresser, anyone.
8 ļæ½ Put together a similar list for the POSOM.
WHEN YOU HAVE SUFFICIENT EVIDENCE,
9 ļæ½ Put together the electronic evidence for each AP.
10 - Write a cover note for your wifeļæ½s contacts, to the tune of: ļæ½I must unhappily inform you that my wife, XXXXXX, is carrying on an illicit affair with YYYYYY. I am hoping to recover our marriage, and ask if you have any influence over her, to urge her to abandon her cheating lifestyle and return to me and our family. Her cell number is 111-222-3333ļæ½
11 ļæ½ Write a similar note to POSOMļæ½s contacts.
12 ļæ½ Send out both packages, to all contacts at one time.
13 ļæ½ Brace yourself.
I think he's going to come home, tell me that she wants to be with him, and that he's leaving me for her. I don't think I'll need to find evidence - I think he'll admit it.

And then what? Do I Plan B?
Has your WH's OW's BH exposed to everyone on his side? I would encourage him do to do this in case she is planning on presenting your H to them as her "newfound" love some time in the future.

He's exposed to her parents and friends, yes.
Originally Posted by Seraph
I think he's going to come home, tell me that she wants to be with him, and that he's leaving me for her. I don't think I'll need to find evidence - I think he'll admit it.

And then what? Do I Plan B?

Ok, first off you need to calm down and breath. You are getting upset over something that you have not seen happen yet.

He may come home and tell you she tried to contact him and he didnt answer the phone. Or he could say she called and he told her he is sticking with you because of the son just like he has been.

He cuold have moved out when you found out or he could have just walked in one day and said he had met someone and was leaving befor you found out but he DIDNT. You have to remember that.

People have plan A'ed even after the husband moves out. I'm sure they will post in a second.

I know I sound like a broken record but calm down and roll with the punches for now.
Keep snooping and watching him and getting together everything for "just in case" but dont let him know you are doing it. Dont do anything in panic mode but be ready if needed.

You do need to do the VAR and GPS in the car. A VAR under the couch where he will be "sleeping" when he cant sleep with you would be a good place also. He may not have been talking to himself.

Stay positive and upbeat as you can around him. He will know you are hurting so you dont have to advertise it. What I could not wrap my mind around was that he is hurting just as bad. He was on a drug and has quit cold turkey.
Thank you. I think the only reason he agreed to NC is because he thought she was going to work it out with her H. If she's not, he doesn't love me, and he thinks he loves her, so he has no reason not to leave me for her.

I know I'm making assumptions about what he's going to do, but I can't see anything else happening.

We have a couple we are friends with - I called the wife and talked to her. Told her the whole story. She was flabbergasted. Asked me, if he wanted to work it out, would I still want to. I said yes.

She can't believe he would destroy his family for someone he's known online for 2 months. She also suggested that her husband talk to my WH to try and talk sense into him. Not sure it will work, but it can't hurt. He was planning to tell her husband anyway.

She suggested I have WHs parents come out for a few days (they had offered) to provide support and a moral compass. Not sure how WH would feel about that.
Originally Posted by Seraph
I think he's going to come home, tell me that she wants to be with him, and that he's leaving me for her. I don't think I'll need to find evidence - I think he'll admit it.

And then what? Do I Plan B?

I think you are still in Plan A and doing a great job.

When he comes home you look beautiful while calmly cooking his favorite dinner. The key is you are calm and in control.

IF (and that's a big if) he says he wants to leave, you fog talk reverse him with... Boy the kids and I are really going to miss you. Time for dinner.

Hang in there Seraph. Deep breaths. Plan A.

I found her on Facebook. Should I prepare for mass exposure to all her friends there?
Originally Posted by Seraph
I found her on Facebook. Should I prepare for mass exposure to all her friends there?

Prepair - yes. I will let the vets tell you if you should go ahead or wait until you see what happens when he comes home. I didnt know about MB when I should have exposed and the affair was over so I didnt expose but to close friends and family that needed to know in order to help me cope. There was no need for me to do that after it was over.

Remember to copy all the friends names to a word doc becuase she will try to block you as soon as she finds out what you are doing. Also, facebook will block you if you dont space it out about a min apart.

Just remember you will be ok no matter what happens in the end.
Thinking I'll hold off on the FB exposure until I see what the evening brings, but I wanted to be ready if I need to do it.

I keep telling myself - what's the worst he can do? He's already ready to leave.
Originally Posted by Seraph
Thank you. I think the only reason he agreed to NC is because he thought she was going to work it out with her H. Waywards say these things and really think they mean them untill the fog lifts.If she's not, he (thinks) doesn't love me, and he thinks he loves her, so he has no reason not to leave me for her. - Yes he does, you son remember?

We have a couple we are friends with - I called the wife and talked to her. Told her the whole story. She was flabbergasted. Asked me, if he wanted to work it out, would I still want to. I said yes. She can't believe he would destroy his family for someone he's known online for 2 months. She also suggested that her husband talk to my WH to try and talk sense into him. Not sure it will work, but it can't hurt. He was planning to tell her husband anyway. could not hurt and you have someone to talk to - great


She suggested I have WHs parents come out for a few days (they had offered) to provide support and a moral compass. Not sure how WH would feel about that.
Seraph,

I wouldn't panic just yet, your husband is a man who is doing a lot of thinking right now about your lives together, you have a history together, the OW does not.
Do you not think he might think the same thing, why would he give up everything for someone he has only know for 2 months.......
Your husband is smart enough to know this isn't love, it's infatuation.....
I would expose the affair to everyone, you have to kill the chance of them resuming or continuing the affair.....
Just be the way you have been polite and thoughtful........
The OW will be putting a lot of pressure on your husband right now. It will probably overwhelm him. He is feeling guilty right now and probably just down right stupid and embarrassed I am going to guess having an affair and everyone knowing is a smart idea to him anymore......
Let him feel all he has created for himself, Tell him you love him and are willing to work to fix what was wrong.....
But only if he gives her up for life.....there can't be 3 people in a marriage, tell he made a mistake and he gets one free card but only if he is on board with a good plan and a transparency and can enforce his own boundaries...
He needs to be open an honest and committed.........
I hope it all goes well, but remember this is a process even if he moves out it's not over, he will soon figure out what real life will do to his fantasy.......
He won't like her that much when he figures the grass he thought was greener is just grass with a whole new set of problems..........
hang in there and breathe, don't react until you have had time to think about your answer.........
jessi, come here and vent and get the support you are going to need.....
Seraph; something about your story sounds familiar. Have you ever posted here under a different user name?
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Seraph; something about your story sounds familiar. Have you ever posted here under a different user name?


No, but I've read a lot here since I started suspecting the affair.
Originally Posted by Seraph
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Seraph; something about your story sounds familiar. Have you ever posted here under a different user name?


No, but I've read a lot here since I started suspecting the affair.
Have you ever had an affair?
No, but I've been guilty of not meeting his EN needs for affection and SF - he's very overweight (about 100lbs) and has been down on himself for some time, and I have deliberately withheld sex when I've been angry or to punish him.

I can see why, after so long of begging for affection and being rejected, he looked someplace else. It got really bad a couple of years ago when I was working a lot and we didn't have SF for probably a month straight, and I thought we had worked through that, but then he started staying up later and later playing games, and by the time he came to bed I was so tired or annoyed I just rolled over and ignored him.

Seraph,

I think you are doing a great job. I have not jumped in here before because I really did not have any additional offerings. I just wanted to comment that immediately after D-day and exposure, the OW and her H were planning to divorce. She went to a hotel right away and then he moved out for a few days. As far as I know, three years later they are still together.

Bottom line: Don't let what is happening in the other household dictate too much what is happening in your house. Stick to your plan.

AM
Originally Posted by Seraph
No, but I've been guilty of not meeting his EN needs for affection and SF - he's very overweight (about 100lbs) and has been down on himself for some time, and I have deliberately withheld sex when I've been angry or to punish him.

I can see why, after so long of begging for affection and being rejected, he looked someplace else. It got really bad a couple of years ago when I was working a lot and we didn't have SF for probably a month straight, and I thought we had worked through that, but then he started staying up later and later playing games, and by the time he came to bed I was so tired or annoyed I just rolled over and ignored him.
Is this the whole truth, Seraph?
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by Seraph
No, but I've been guilty of not meeting his EN needs for affection and SF - he's very overweight (about 100lbs) and has been down on himself for some time, and I have deliberately withheld sex when I've been angry or to punish him.

I can see why, after so long of begging for affection and being rejected, he looked someplace else. It got really bad a couple of years ago when I was working a lot and we didn't have SF for probably a month straight, and I thought we had worked through that, but then he started staying up later and later playing games, and by the time he came to bed I was so tired or annoyed I just rolled over and ignored him.
Is this the whole truth, Seraph?


Yes - I'm sorry if I haven't been forthright about that in my previous posts - I haven't been trying to downplay my part in the affair.
Originally Posted by Seraph
Yes - I'm sorry if I haven't been forthright about that in my previous posts - I haven't been trying to downplay my part in the affair.
I am not suggesting that you played any part in his affair. I am, however, asking you to be honest about any of your previous affairs, if you have had any.

Were you married when you met your H?
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by Seraph
Yes - I'm sorry if I haven't been forthright about that in my previous posts - I haven't been trying to downplay my part in the affair.
I am not suggesting that you played any part in his affair. I am, however, asking you to be honest about any of your previous affairs, if you have had any.

Were you married when you met your H?


No - I had been married right out of high school, but we had split up and been legally divorced for many years before I met my H.

I read the post you bumped, and I do see some similarities, but I haven't had any affairs. Maybe if I had it would make more sense, but right now I just can't wrap my head around leaving your son for a woman you've never met.
Originally Posted by armymama
Seraph,

I think you are doing a great job. I have not jumped in here before because I really did not have any additional offerings. I just wanted to comment that immediately after D-day and exposure, the OW and her H were planning to divorce. She went to a hotel right away and then he moved out for a few days. As far as I know, three years later they are still together.

Bottom line: Don't let what is happening in the other household dictate too much what is happening in your house. Stick to your plan.

AM


Thanks. I just feel hopeless. He doesn't *want* NC with her. He's only doing it for our son (he says), and if she begs him to leave me for her, I feel so certain that he will. My only real hope was that she and her H would work on their marriage, and then she and my WH could stay away from each other long enough for the fog to fade. Now I can't believe that will happen.
I read so many emails to my FWH from the OW asking him when he was going to leave me.

He even was helping her find houses to rent so she could leave her husband if she wanted but that didn't mean he was going with her.

Later he told me that he NEVER planned on leaving me. He never told her that because she would have not kept up the fantasy land he was in.

Please stop assuming he has already decided to leave you and his son.
Originally Posted by LuvsDavid
I read so many emails to my FWH from the OW asking him when he was going to leave me.

He even was helping her find houses to rent so she could leave her husband if she wanted but that didn't mean he was going with her.

Later he told me that he NEVER planned on leaving me. He never told her that because she would have not kept up the fantasy land he was in.

Please stop assuming he has already decided to leave you and his son.


I guess I just can't help it - he's told me that he doesn't love me, doesn't want to be with me, he loves her, he wants to be in a relationship with her. All that adds up to "leaving". I'm trying to remain calm, but it's hard.

If he *does* come home tonight and tell me he's leaving me for her, I'm not sure how to react. I think I'll have to ask him to leave.
My husband told.me all those things in front of a marriage counselor .......
So they had to be true right?

HE WANTS A RELATIONSHIP WITH SOMEONE THAT WILL LOVE HIM......
sounds like you can get that covered.

Ok now that you have said he is overweight I can understand some of what he is feeling. He is very insecure about that and thinks that now, with the A on top of that you will never love him. He needs SF also so you need to work on that.

Do you have the books yet?
Originally Posted by LuvsDavid
Do you have the books yet?


I ordered SAA - should be here tomorrow. Should I also get His Needs, Her Needs? It seemed a little premature ...
Originally Posted by Seraph
Originally Posted by LuvsDavid
Do you have the books yet?


I ordered SAA - should be here tomorrow. Should I also get His Needs, Her Needs? It seemed a little premature ...


Ok, nevermind. I ordered it as well.
I think you need a list of all the FANTASTIC signs to keep your spirits up.

Sign 1 - He is still there!!!

Sign two - He is made uncomfortable by your Plan Aing - thats because he LIKES IT SO MUCH he doesnt know what to think of his own crazy behaviour.

Sign three - the 4am convo of how much he loves you. This means HE LOVES YOU

Sign four - being honest with you about wanting to call her. You need someone who is honest with you about stuff that is difficult to say. It show respect for you. It shows he does not want to cake eat.

Sign five - the 'shall we share a bed' olive branch. He not only wants to lie close with you. He wants to HEAR that you want it too. All he wants is to be wanted and admired. He is shy about asking for it, when he feels undeserving, thats all.
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Sign three - the 4am convo of how much he loves you. This means HE LOVES YOU


I'm confused - the 4am conversation was about how he *doesn't* love me, *doesn't* want to be with me. How is that good?
Personally I liked HNHN better but I would start with SAA. It walks you through the steps.

Remember I didn't know about this site and was winging it but did a pretty good plan A on my own.

Have you looked at the emotional need questions on this site? Don't show him because since he is into computers he will find this site but take a guess at his needs and start working on them.

Yes it will feel akward at first bit he can't help but respond evenif slowly.
This thread is locked temporarily.
Unlocked.
I need to come clean about the fact that I LIED to SugarCane.

I did post as BrokenGirl.ļæ½ That was me.ļæ½ It was wrong to lie.ļæ½ I'm so hurt and scared and terrified that I thought no one would help me if they knew the truth.

I apologise to all of you for my deception as you tried to help me in my time of need.

I hope you can find it to forgive me. If not, I understand.

Again, I LIED and it was wrong. I'm so very sorry.
Seraph you can do better than this. All the hard stuff you've done past few days. You have been incredible. Is facing up to your own mistakes, being honest, really any harder? There are lots of former waywards on here. People who have lied A LOT.

I consider myself very honest and I am a BS not a WS - but does that mean I haven't made some serious, horrible, make-you-wince mistakes in my marriage? No, we all make mistakes.

Welcome to honesty land. You'll do even better from this point.

On the positive side, you will have great insight with your hubby based on your own experiences.
Now step one is you have to expose your affairs also. You have to fess up to your mistakes to show you mean business.

I agree you have first hand knowledge of what your husband is going through and you know how to help him get over this and move on. Have you committed to stop and be an open book to him?

You BOTH have to follow EP's and transparency now. Good news is you BOTH understand why.

I still think u can do this but you BOTH have to work hard for the rest of your lives.
i appreciate that you told the "truth". but whats the truth? are you playing both sides for some selfish gain? i think many BS would be weary to advise you, beacuse they open themselves up to you and tried to help you as one person with one problem, not 2 people with 2 problems. come clean on one thread. what is the real truth, and what do you want help with.

you made the first step, you can take another.

just my thoughts, i was rooting for you on both sides, just cant figure out what is real until you tell me.
Originally Posted by Seraph
I need to come clean about the fact that I LIED to SugarCane.

I did post as BrokenGirl.ļæ½ That was me.ļæ½ It was wrong to lie.ļæ½ I'm so hurt and scared and terrified that I thought no one would help me if they knew the truth.

I apologise to all of you for my deception as you tried to help me in my time of need.

I hope you can find it to forgive me. If not, I understand.

Again, I LIED and it was wrong. I'm so very sorry.
Seraph, no one is here to judge you. We're here to HELP you. And we can't do that without all of the facts. Thank you for admitting your dishonesty. NOW we can get to work. We are not your enemy.
I wanted to thank you all for your compassion. I'm sorry I couldn't post earlier - I took DS to a friends house for dinner, just to get out.

One thing I want to be clear on - my mistakes have been exposed. My WH knows, and has known since pretty much immediately after. My mother, his parents, our best friends and our MC all also know - I've admitted everything to all of them. It's actually freeing, almost, to confess the worst things you've ever done and have people still like you.
Ok so the plan is still plan A and hope he plan A back.

BUT EP'S AND TRANSPARENCY IS THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN BOTH FEEL SAFE AGAIN.
Thanks, LD.

He's working from home today and tomorrow to "reassure" me. He offered, and I had said, "if you want to", but then I said, "no, i want you to. And thank you for trying to make me feel reassured."

I don't know why he's doing it, though. We had a blow up last night where we yelled - we never yell, ever. It only lasted a minute, then we talked, and I told him some stuff from my childhood he hadn't known. He hugged me for a long time while we talked, but it was the same thing - it's not fixable, he's sorry he can't try but he cant, he's sorry he had an affair and lied to me and our MC about it and he hates to see me hurt, but he doesn't love me and he loves OW.
Seraph,

I am sorry this is all happening to your life and the lies that have gone on, but it is all in the open now and it is what it is.
I think your husband is in a foggy state right now and he isn't ready to consider anything else, he needs more time, all you can do is Plan A him and be accountable for your actions all the while remaining respectful to yourself because you do deserve that all of us do, even the ones that make mistakes.............
I know all this hurts and seems impossible right now, I think what has to happen is time has to take it's course here............
The truth is out, exposure has to happen at it's fullest and then reality has to take over and logic has to replace fantasy.

you can't control him only yourself, just look at the little things as hopeful jestures for now, in time your husband may realize what it is he is chosing now.......he will have to weigh it out and decide if this is real for him. I would sit back and let him learn what the OW is all about when she has to fill all the needs you have been filling for him, she can't do that with the same good feelings you have..you two have a history............
hang in there, patience right now is your strong suit.........understanding compassion and accountability is your ally............the rest is up to him from his side of the street.
Ok, I'm reading up on your other post and have a question.

On you post on June 7th you stated you had ordered surviving an affar at that time but you said you just ordered it on this tread also.

HAVE YOU ORDERED THE BOOK?
Originally Posted by LuvsDavid
Ok, I'm reading up on your other post and have a question.

On you post on June 7th you stated you had ordered surviving an affar at that time but you said you just ordered it on this tread also.

HAVE YOU ORDERED THE BOOK?


Yeah, it should be here today. I also got "His Needs, Her Needs" and it should be here today as well.

I had ordered SAA originally in early June, but order didn't go through because I forgot to hit "Submit", and by the time I realised it, I had convinced myself it wasn't an affair and I didn't need it.

Bad move, obviously.
At that time SSA was for your affair not his as but as long as you are getting it.

Some of the of the things you posted then pointed to him in a fog then but we were focused on you so I missed them.

Please work hard this time because I think you can save this but you have to work hard not just taking the easy route.
Thanks, LD. I'm having a rollercoaster day - he offered to work from home this afternoon and tomorrow in order to reassure me he won't contact her, but then I see he Googled "Ourstate Divorce" earlier today, and I don't even know what to feel.
Him staying at home was a good step to make you feel safe but let's talk about you.

What have you done for.him today? Have you done anything to make him feel safe and wanted? .... if not think of something you can do.

Since you both have had affairs in the past this is a two way street. He needs to know that if he gives this woman up to be with you he will not be hurt in the future by you.
I've been trying to appreciate the steps he's taking. I told him it made me feel good and trusting that he was willing to work from home. He said now can I feel trusting if I need him to be here? I said it's a babystep.

I've been as transparent with him as possible since 2009 - he has access to my phone, phone records, email (work and home), my computer (work and home).

Honestly, at this point, I think he's so in withdrawal theres not much I can do to meet his EN. I'm trying to meet "attractive spouse" and "admiration", but obviously "affection" and "sf" are off the table (his choice, not mine).

Right now he's so cranky I'm in a different room. He's only 4 days into withdrawal, and based on what I've figured out, today's was a day he "worked from home" but actually spent time on the phone with her. I'm going to give him some space today until he's out of this mood.
Originally Posted by Seraph
I need to come clean about the fact that I LIED to SugarCane.

I did post as BrokenGirl.ļæ½ That was me.ļæ½ It was wrong to lie.ļæ½ I'm so hurt and scared and terrified that I thought no one would help me if they knew the truth.

I apologise to all of you for my deception as you tried to help me in my time of need.

I hope you can find it to forgive me. If not, I understand.

Again, I LIED and it was wrong. I'm so very sorry.

Adieu, BrokenGirl/Seraph.
Not because you were once a WW.
Adieu because I can't abide MB board deceptions.
Thank you for your honesty, Pepperband.
Originally Posted by Seraph
I've been trying to appreciate the steps he's taking. I told him it made me feel good and trusting that he was willing to work from home. He said now can I feel trusting if I need him to be here? I said it's a babystep.

I've been as transparent with him as possible since 2009 - he has access to my phone, phone records, email (work and home), my computer (work and home).

Honestly, at this point, I think he's so in withdrawal theres not much I can do to meet his EN. I'm trying to meet "attractive spouse" and "admiration", but obviously "affection" and "sf" are off the table (his choice, not mine).

Right now he's so cranky I'm in a different room. He's only 4 days into withdrawal, and based on what I've figured out, today's was a day he "worked from home" but actually spent time on the phone with her. I'm going to give him some space today until he's out of this mood.


Are those his top ENs?

This apparent need for space is just defensive. He wants you to prove you WANT to be around him before he admits it. He is shrugging off affection? Saying I love you is still affection. being caring and transparent is affection. You are affectionate and its what he needs. Dont be pushed off by a slight sulk. He needs you he just doesnt want to show it. If he orders you out the room, or just asks to be alone, thats different. Say ok nicely, say youll see him in abit, say you love him. say ok - ill make that nice dinner you like while you chill. Theres loads of ways to be caring to someone in withdrawal.
Thanks, Indie. SF and admiration are his top EN. Affection is likely third. I'm trying to meet admiration, and affection where I can.

He just spent the last hour talking about divorce. I'm so worn down right now. How can he think we'll be friends afterward?

He hugged me a lot today and last night because I was crying, but that's more than I've been getting recently.

He still misses OW. Great to keep hearing that.
I hate the whole lets be friends be nonsense, I got it a lot.Its because he cant see letting you go entirely, even in the fog. but its totally maddening to hear.

Did you ever say the friends thing as a ws?

hugs are good! youre doing well.
Thanks, Indie - that's a hopeful perspective, that he can't see letting me go entirely. This fog this is a pain. I wonder how long it takes to wear off after a 2 month, online-only affair.
How long did it take for you? Remember we know you have been throgh this also so you should not have to ask us things like that. First things first is I think this was a RA because you never fully committed from you A either.

I REALLY. Think you should email the radio show. They would love to help you with this when they hear your story. There answers would help alot of us also.
LD - I was so scared of losing my H that when he confronted me the second time, I went to NC immediately. We had hysterical bonding, and I had no fog or withdrawal because I had been shocked into seeing how close I came to losing him.

He hasn't had that, and only agreed to NC for our son, so it's a different situation.
Originally Posted by Seraph
...I had no fog or withdrawal because I had been shocked into seeing how close I came to losing him.

Seraph, I disagree with this statement. The circumstances under which you began posting this time around were deceitful; any wayward who is truly reformed will, I believe, recognize the importance of openness and honesty - especially when coming to this environment seeking help for recovering from further infidelity - and will own his or her past 100%. The fact that you didn't speaks to a level of selfishness that overrides the integrity required to triumph over infidelity - either yours, or your WH's. IMHO.

Originally Posted by Seraph
He hasn't had that, and only agreed to NC for our son, so it's a different situation.

See, the thing is, Brokengirl/Seraph, infidelity is not really all that different. I understand the fear of losing something you value (to put it mildly), and I understand how that can drive some obsessive, crazy-making, worrying thoughts. The good thing is that recovering from infidelity is pretty much the same here at MB - Plan A, Plan B where necessary, you work your side of the street, etc., etc., etc.

You still have folks posting to you, willing to help you through this. Brush up on your Plan A reading if you need to, and focus on what's under your control: your actions/fixing yourself and meeting your WH's ENs. Your situation actually sounds quite hopeful, providing you work the plan.

Originally Posted by Mrs_Vanilla
See, the thing is, Brokengirl/Seraph, infidelity is not really all that different. I understand the fear of losing something you value (to put it mildly), and I understand how that can drive some obsessive, crazy-making, worrying thoughts. The good thing is that recovering from infidelity is pretty much the same here at MB - Plan A, Plan B where necessary, you work your side of the street, etc., etc., etc.

You still have folks posting to you, willing to help you through this. Brush up on your Plan A reading if you need to, and focus on what's under your control: your actions/fixing yourself and meeting your WH's ENs. Your situation actually sounds quite hopeful, providing you work the plan.


Thank you for posting. I've been revisiting The Plan A thread daily, if not more often. WH is obviously not interested in Plan A-ing me. I'm working to meet his needs as he will let me, but it's hard to see any hope in the face of his withdrawal and longing for OW and continous discussion about divorce.

You are right, though, that it is selfish bevaviour to seek help on my terms - I need to seek it on MB terms. And I'm grateful for those who still post to me despite my poor behaviour.
Seraph, I'm still here.

He still misses OW. Great to keep hearing that.

He hasn't had that, and only agreed to NC for our son...


I'm sure you acknowledge the small chance of the second with the perpetuity of the first, right? By implementing the snooping elements I suggested yesterday, you will at least know if/when he breaks NC, but the real victory will only be achieved when YOU are a better supplier of those ENs he was sourcing through OW than SHE was.

THINK! You've been here long enough in your two tenures to list them probably better than me. Recreate in your mind what his interfacing with OW would have contained.

You have said that there was no opportunity for in-person SF. Okay, was there any chance of phone / text / Skype actions? Depending on his degree of imagination, SHE might not even have had to be involved. Doesn't matter. Get jiggy with him, somehow. You ARE in-person, right?

Admiration is probably a BIG one, at least admiration for the fantasy character he assumed during their WoW sessions. How do you plan to attack that? I don't know him, or you, but you MUST find something REAL (no fabricating this stuff) that you can provide admiration about to him. (During our recovery, my wife mentioned that she loved the few black-eyed susans that unexpectedly popped up on our front yard. The next time I mowed, I purposely went around them. When she saw that, her reaction interms of complimenting me was......great.)

Recreational companionship also suggests itself. Do NOT try to go at this directly, by suggesting he and you join a different fantasy exercise. Did he develop an appreciation for militaria from WoW? Find the nearest battlefield park, arrange for a trip there (You do it ALL!), claiming YOU want to tour it. Subscribe to a military history magazine for both of you to read.....and READ it!

Continue with ALL of them. You don't care about primacy; you're going for totality. You're competing with a mirage, dammit. You've got to be able to beat THAT!
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
Seraph, I'm still here.

He still misses OW. Great to keep hearing that.

He hasn't had that, and only agreed to NC for our son...


I'm sure you acknowledge the small chance of the second with the perpetuity of the first, right? By implementing the snooping elements I suggested yesterday, you will at least know if/when he breaks NC, but the real victory will only be achieved when YOU are a better supplier of those ENs he was sourcing through OW than SHE was.

THINK! You've been here long enough in your two tenures to list them probably better than me. Recreate in your mind what his interfacing with OW would have contained.

You have said that there was no opportunity for in-person SF. Okay, was there any chance of phone / text / Skype actions? Depending on his degree of imagination, SHE might not even have had to be involved. Doesn't matter. Get jiggy with him, somehow. You ARE in-person, right?

Admiration is probably a BIG one, at least admiration for the fantasy character he assumed during their WoW sessions. How do you plan to attack that? I don't know him, or you, but you MUST find something REAL (no fabricating this stuff) that you can provide admiration about to him. (During our recovery, my wife mentioned that she loved the few black-eyed susans that unexpectedly popped up on our front yard. The next time I mowed, I purposely went around them. When she saw that, her reaction interms of complimenting me was......great.)

Recreational companionship also suggests itself. Do NOT try to go at this directly, by suggesting he and you join a different fantasy exercise. Did he develop an appreciation for militaria from WoW? Find the nearest battlefield park, arrange for a trip there (You do it ALL!), claiming YOU want to tour it. Subscribe to a military history magazine for both of you to read.....and READ it!

Continue with ALL of them. You don't care about primacy; you're going for totality. You're competing with a mirage, dammit. You've got to be able to beat THAT!


Ok. As far as snooping goes, I'll get a VAR and put it in the car this weekend, but I suspect contact, if it happens, will be a phone call to/from his office/her office. Her BH and I are in contact daily so hopefully we'll at least find out and let the other know, but it's hard to be certain.

Given his ongoing foul mood and general crankiness, combined with OWH telling me she's not interested in contacting him, I'm hopeful that contact has not occurred.

There was phone sex and cybersex. I am in person - we still live together and sleep in the same bed (although he puts a wall of blankets between us), but he is not at *ALL* interested in SF with me. He has hugged me a couple times during difficult conversations where I cried, but that's the extent if the touching for the last 6 weeks.

I'm sure she met his need for admiration by conversation - he could tell her all the stories he loves to tell about himself. I'm not sure how to do that - I've been trying to have non-forced conversation with him, but he's so withdrawn it's hard.

I have been admiring of him where the opportunity presents itself - when he tells a story of something good he did at work, etc.

He likes hiking and Geocaching, so we were doing that, but he was so cranky (missing the OW, I guess, although I didn't know it at the time) that it was miserable for our DS so I stopped. Maybe I should start up again - finding the caches and arranging the trips.

For other emotional needs - attractive wife - I think I meet that pretty well, and I've taken an effort to being more "put together" when I see him in the mornings (no sweatpants and big t shirts), family commitment - that one is pretty easy as well. I'm doing well with Honesty & Openness, although it's hard to balance it against LB, so I need to continue to focus on that.

Affection is another one that he just won't let me meet right now, at least not physically, so I'm looking for ways to meet it verbally and emotionally.
Your attitude sounds great, lots of calculations...

Here's an Art of War quote for you

"The general who wins a battle makes many calculations in his temple ere the battle is fought. The general who loses a battle makes no calculations..."

Going by appearances OW and the wayward alien part of your husband are not making any calculations! Snooping is your way of making sure they arent making plans. The fogginess is doomed to defeat!

sure the vets can help out with more tips on the ENs. They are masters.
Thanks, Indie - you're right that I can't flail about without a plan. I will meet the EN he let's me meet, and do my best to avoid/deflect D talk.
He's home now and cranky as all get out. I haven't asked why - I suspect he'd say "Work" or something about being around me being too stressful, but we're on day 5 of NC with OW (confirmed again with her H), so I suspect that's the more likely culprit.

Thinking of going to a festival on Saturday with S, but not sure about inviting WH, if he's going to act like a lion with a thorn in his paw.
Honestly, I know I keep posting about it, but I'm just floored by how cranky he is. And everything I've read says things are unlikely to improve until 3 weeks into withdrawal.

Two weeks from now, I might have packed for him!

I guess I knew he'd be cranky, but he's never been this way toward me before, ever, and I'm just flabbergasted.
Ill let the vets do this one. If you're really struggling I dont know whether youre supposed to stick it out or go into plan b to protect your mental health from his behaviour.

I think youre doing an amazing job. His cranky toddler persona is the ONLY defense he has against the yearning for your sexy caring self. He might crack sooner than you think!!!
Seraph,

I know he is cranky, when he does have a noticeable moment just say to him calmly that it's okay that you understand he is going through a lot.......
Tell him that you love him and could be his friend, I would find small ways of brushing by my husband when he was going through his withdrawal. Looking right into his eyes when I spoke, asking for hugs because I was upset, yours seems to be willing use that as some physical contact..........
I also used to make a little contact in the bed at night, by accident of course, hehe!!
every little moment makes a difference, I went to a therapist and he said that hugging probably really helped us connect again.
Don't let his bad mood stop you from being the best you can be, look good, smell good, cook his favorite food, do little things for him that he will notice when you aren't around.........
I used to say to my husband that I didn't do any of this, that he should be mad at himself and not me...... that I didn't deserve all the hurt that came my way but I could understand he made a mistake and I could forgive him because I was never out of love with him.
I would rent movies at first, and he would sit down with me and watch them, not a lot of talking at first and sitting on opposite sides of the room, but after a few weeks, on the couch together watching the movies and talking a bit each night.
My husband was in withdrawal for about 4 months, he worked with his OW.
I was patient and was thankful for each little moment that seemed positive, he now is the one that is working the hardest in this marriage, but at first I thought my marriage was over and that he was going to go to the OW....
so if it looks bad now don't give up, things change, fantasy hits reality and life doesn't look the same anymore........
sit back and have a solid plan to win your husband back.
I used the motivation thought that what my husband and his OW had underestimated in their plan was "ME" I wasn't going to let some other woman he had known for 2 months take my life..............game on Seraph.........
slowly and steady wins the race..........so to speak.
jessi
Seraph,

He is having what equates to a temper tantrum.


You took away his toys, and he is mad about it. Expect him to be mad.


I work with people, and my job is essentially to analyze "how they think", and to deconstruct their thoughts in order to fully understand how their thinking goes wrong. Then, I can figure out how to work around the issues and get them to "rethink" things (this is if the person is an adult - with kids its a little different).

Anyway.

Your husband is having a tantrum, and his deal with putting blankets between you is a way of getting at you. He wants and almost NEEDS you to comment on this. He wants you to "start something" over it.

Your best approach?

Do not say or do anything about it. He KNOWS this is childish. He knows he is acting out a scene from a teen romance movie, and wants you to do something dramatic, like pull the blankets out and attack him, so he can "fight you off".


Don't take the bait. He does this to make a point about how un-attracted he is toward you.


Fact is, I would say this is a LIE.

He remained in the home, and he is in the same bed with you.

He needs time, and your best bet is to stay silent during the temper tantrum.


By standing back, and allowing him time to throw his fit, you remove ALL OF THE POWER FROM THE TANTRUM.

Politely invite him to your activities with your son. Stay as happy as though tomorrow you were receiving a million dollar check in the mail. When he declines, politely tell him, "Okay, I thought you might enjoy it. We'll see you when we get back! You want a cookie?"


And be DONE with it.


Just as the affair BELONGS TO HIM.....his temper tantrum over being caught BELONGS TO HIM.


The affair is not about you. The tantrum is not about you.


The more attention you give to his crabby behavior, the more he will play it up.


Stay the course.


The MB course, that is. Plan A.


SB
Done with WH. Came crying to me today aboutnhow he's miserable without OW, they're in love, it's really for real. I told him to get out as fast as possible. I will not live with someone who is doing what he's doing. He seemed taken aback. I don't care. I've spent 6 weeks pouring my heart put in MC, taking every piece of blame he's thrown at me, owned all the bad things about our relationship, while he's been lying and cheating. No more. The sooner I never have to talk to him again, the better.
Oh Hun, thats tough.

It's all about him, it's all about him. Poor baby can't face up to reality and so is retreating into his sad fantasy world.

These men really are plonkers when they are faced with someone who will agree with them, hang on their every word, tell them they are marvellous and never never make them face any reality.

Of course it's all your fault, heavens he can't possibly take any responsibility here.....I mean, it just happened, he wasn't looking for it, it just happened.....honest.

He is still having a major tantrum, so maybe now is indeed the time to show him what life is like without the security blanket of Seraph.

Maybe now is time for Plan B but will leave that to the vets. But IMHO it seems well past time for him to open his eyes and take a peep round at his world and what he created.

OW?? is she still wanting this big cry baby??

He needs to pull on his big boy pants and face up to what his life will be like.

Tell him to move out, be sweet, understanding but firm.

Pack him some lunch in his favourite Superman lunch box, kiss him and tell him to have a good play time.

Then do something lovely to treat yourself!!

FWIW I don't think he would last a week and will be back begging and crying for Seraph to make it all alright again.

Silly wayturd.

And it's OK to be angry, p****d off and fed up. Just come here to vent honey
definitely sounds like Plan B time to me!!

I think you should use the time to really take care of yourslef, take a few indulgences and make it alla bout YOU. Youve worked so hard.

Lets see what WHAAAAMambalance man thinks of the real world - the one without your caring love and attention.

Will wait for the vets wise opinion, though.

ok this is going to hurt but has to be said as a reminder.

Plan B does not mean you are free to see or talk to other men. You have had an affair in your past so you are more susceptible to one now.

Basically watch out for RA's.

I don't care about who did what first, it is still wrong.
Originally Posted by LuvsDavid
ok this is going to hurt but has to be said as a reminder.

Plan B does not mean you are free to see or talk to other men. You have had an affair in your past so you are more susceptible to one now.

Basically watch out for RA's.

I don't care about who did what first, it is still wrong.


No worries there. At this point, I'm a bit down on men and not likely to fall in to anything, but will still be vigilant.
Feeling much better and more in control of my ship today. 80% feeling good, 20% feeling sad. Think I'll take myself shopping after work and buy some new boots - they will be made for walking, of course.
I think you did the right thing, you cannot try to rebuild while he is in an A, let him move out, let him feel what this fantasy has done to his real life......
Let him figure out what a stupid move this on his own......
Start making the conversations about him moving out and what the financials will be for your family now, and custody of the children things like that, when you will tell your families that you are splitting, let that reality hit home for him, right now you are letting him wally in his own pain, make him be responsible for that as well.
He will come running back in no time when he figures out the relationship isn't real.
stay firm but loving at the same time, just deal with the details of your new life without him.
help him pack up his stuff........
be the best wife in the world in terms of attitude and don't let him see a weak woman that will be his doormat. Show him that you will accept and let him move on. It is the quickest way to have him figure it out.......
set him free and wait for him to come crawling back....
jessi
Thanks, Jessi. I figure either way, it will work out for me - if he and OW don't work out, perhaps he'll let me know. If they do, at least I'm in command of my own ship - not just waiting to see what he'll do.

It's hard, because I love the person I thought he was, but just sitting around while he cries over her and is mean to me was making me not love him *or* me.
So you're in an affairage, and have had so many EA/PA's that I lost count, and your WH, too, is not unfaithful for the first time. To me, that seems like pretty pertinent information for someone who wants advice.

This is not said to be hostile, but simply realistic. Even before all the other A's, when we got to the affairage part you might as well hang up your hat. Even if you just go with the odds. only 1 in 100 affairages ever sees the 5 year mark. Doesn't work so well.

For the sake of others who may read this thread later, I have some advice which I will offer as if there was no affairage, only multiple A's from both partners.

When a WS makes the decision to hold onto the A, even Dr. H says it is a logical choice to ask WS to move out. Though many (like me) choose to allow them to stay at home for the duration of Plan A, and only have them move out in time for Plan B, it is perfectly fine to move them out WHILE CONTINUING PLAN A.

Dr. H recommends 3-6 weeks of Plan A'ing a WH, and 3-6 months of Plan A'ing a WW. My own personal belief is that when the BW is also a WW or FWW, that Plan A should be extended toward the longer end of the spectrum, and even beyond if it can be done without undue trauma or mental distress.

The reason for that is, you're not only fighting to bring back a WH against his own A, but against his agony at yours, too. It's an unbelievable attack, and seldom can be solved with a cute little couple-week Plan A.

It may be the same ugly Infidelity Monster, but many times larger, and requiring much more ammunition to have a chance to kill it.

If there was no affairage in this situation, the best thing to do would be to have WH move out, and continue Plan A for as long as you possibly could. Then, and only then, would I advise a Plan B.

I pray that you find God, and let Him change you. You can become a new creature, with your sins washed away and your sin gone. That hasn't happened yet because you haven't truly repented. A truly repentant person would not have lied to conceal their past. That, more than anything else you will find on this most excellent board, is what you need.

You have much bigger problems to deal with than a cranky WH.
If you are planning your Plan B, you need to set the scene now as he preps to move.

Continue on Plan A. Be sweet, good looking/smelling, and nice-nice-nice. Meet his needs.

Meanwhile, continue with the plans for him to move, do not talk of the relationship or divorce. Write your Plan B letter and get your IM in place.

Talk to him about your conditions for his "return" to the marriage: no contact with OW, write a NC letter, passwords, etc.



Stay on course. Do not deviate, and make sure his needs are met. Because when he walks out the door, you need to hand him the Plan B letter, shut the door sweetly, and leave him on his own knowing the terms to return to the marriage. Then go very very very very dark.


If he thinks he is crying for OW? Watch him cry for YOU. Because OW meets zero needs IRL - it's all in his head. He will figure it out quick when your door slams shut.


SB
Originally Posted by schoolbus
Stay on course. Do not deviate, and make sure his needs are met. Because when he walks out the door, you need to hand him the Plan B letter, shut the door sweetly, and leave him on his own knowing the terms to return to the marriage. Then go very very very very dark.

If he thinks he is crying for OW? Watch him cry for YOU. Because OW meets zero needs IRL - it's all in his head. He will figure it out quick when your door slams shut.

SB


I just don't know if I can Plan A him. I can't even look at him without feeling sick to my stomach. The thought of trying to be nice to him .. to be polite .. it's too much to think about.
Well, I kinda think that way about you, Seraph. Yet, I see great things in you.

I'm giving you a chance even though your past actions make me slightly sick. You came clean, though.

Now that I've said that...not sure if I could take what you're going through. Do everything that you can, but you need to get ready for Plan B asap, girl. ASAP, like now.
Post a draft of your Plan B letter here for helpful edits, and get your IM ready. Do you have an Im ready?
Thanks, Surfer. I appreciate it. I will have tomwork on the letter tomorrow - I've worked 18 out of the last 24 hours and I'm exhausted.
He informed me this morning he plans to contact her. If she's working on her marriage, he'll "step out". If not ... I'm sure she'll come running back to her "fix".

Funny he shows more concern for her family and marriage than his.

At this point, I don't even want him back. I just want him gone.
I'm sorry for the pain your WH is inflicting on you, Seraph. His "I may be back if I can't get something better" gambit is unbelievably cruel.

You job now is to isolate your feelings to only those actions and attitudes that you control. Pursue every avenue to getting away from him, even if you have to be the one to relocate. Physical separation would be the start of a proper Plan B application.

You must not take his opinions as true evaluations of your worth. That is the most damaging blow a WS delivers to a BS. Do not go there. You are what your accomplishments and position in life entitle you to be. His self-justifying attitudes and opinions about you (in comparison to his imaginary WoW partner ?) are artificial constructs to permit him to feel less ***EDIT*** about what he fully realizes are pretty disgusting actions.
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
You job now is to isolate your feelings to only those actions and attitudes that you control. Pursue every avenue to getting away from him, even if you have to be the one to relocate. Physical separation would be the start of a proper Plan B application.

Thank you. The time being, he's in the house. He will be gone overnight on a fishing trip tomorrow, so I will get reprieve from him. Next week our son is at camp, so I will go stay with a friend. Hopefully that will give me the space I need to find the strength to make it tom the end of the month, which is when I told him to be out.

Right now I'm just avoiding him. He won't stop talking to me. I've taken to one-word answers - "ok", "thank you", a nod.

He went to the store and came back and told me he bought salmon, and he can BBQ it whenever I want in the next couple of days. And then some blather about not finding the right juice boxes. How can he be so. I don't even know.
You're doing good. Very strong, not taking any of his nonsense.

The BBQ thing is crazy. Sounds like hes trying to plan A you now?! He must be impressed with the power its given you, but UH uh, hes not controlling this boat...

He's a cake eater, I would say. Swapping back and forth between you and her.

I will let the vets tell you this, but I thought that Plan B was about kicking him out, you staying in the marital home, but you mention staying with a friend?
Originally Posted by indiegirl
I will let the vets tell you this, but I thought that Plan B was about kicking him out, you staying in the marital home, but you mention staying with a friend?


He's finding a place - I was just going to stay with a friend for a few days while DS is at sleepaway camp - just to be away from him.

I'm staying in the house - he's leaving.
cool
You may have already, but read the fine description of cake eating in Pep's thread on wayward fog which is now part of my sig.

If nothing else, will give you a much needed giggle
CAKE CAKE CAKE CAKE CAKE

I like that.

In my case, WH isn't even pretending he wants me - he wants OW, our marriage is over, he's in love with her, they're soulmates, it's not an affair because "our relationship was over before he met her" (thanks for telling me, btw .. )

So I'm going to get through the next couple weeks however I can, and then just go very dark.
Quote
"our relationship was over before he met her"

This is what just about every wayward says to their AP. Even if they end up marrying them later.
Searaph, my h told me I 'would regret' confronting them both, that she 'had nothing to do with OUR growing apart'. He was hostile and vile. Then when he came to get his stuff I had a VAR waiting in our empty house. What did I hear? Him crying like a little girl. He took love letters I had written him out of the bureau too, What as he crying for? Wife-cake.

You see skank-cake isnt as sweet.
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Searaph, my h told me I 'would regret' confronting them both, that she 'had nothing to do with OUR growing apart'. He was hostile and vile. Then when he came to get his stuff I had a VAR waiting in our empty house. What did I hear? Him crying like a little girl. He took love letters I had written him out of the bureau too, What as he crying for? Wife-cake.

You see skank-cake isnt as sweet.


That's interesting - I'm actually wondering if he'll keep all the things I made for him. I used to make him handmade cards, etc, for Vday, Anniversary.

Last year I made him a book, called "Oh the Places We'll Go", with a postcard and blurb on each page about places we were planning to take trips to. Next year, our 10 year anniversary, was supposed to be Paris.

I'm guessing he'll just throw it all in the trash. I don't even think I want to know.
I guess my next two weeks will be .. not Plan A, I don't think I can Plan A unless it stands for "avoid". But I can be polite and civil, and I'm certainly able to display the sort of fun and amusing person I can be during my interactions with our son - he likes to play board games with WH & I, and in those times, I act "normal". It's the closest I'm going to get.

Once he's found the house, I suppose I'll send him off with a PBL and then go dark. I have a little while to work out the IM (thinking a friend of mine from work that he doesn't really know), and the letter, as well as the logistics. Doing some reading of old PLB threads.
Seraph,

Somewhere in here I missed that you are in an affairage.


If you have read this website, you know the odds are stacked against you going into this kind of marriage.


Look at what you "built" going into the marriage:


You two built your relationship on a foundation of deception of other people. Certainly you understood that going in? You must have recognized that the two of you both ENDORSED cheating on your spouses - otherwise, you two never would have gotten together in the first place.

During the course of your marriage, you report having been here before, and that there have been multiple affairs, on your part and on his as well.


You also note that as a couple you have not worked to recover from those affairs.


My guess is that "as a couple" your view of affair behavior really has been one of general acceptance - mainly because both of you desire some level of freedom to engage in "shopping around", even though you are married. Therefore, when one or the other of you has an affair, as a couple you have tolerated this behavior because of the way you two view affairs in general, and because you both really DO want some leeway for yourselves as well.


Something has changed for you, however. Perhaps with this particular partner of his, you see a possibility of the relationship changing, his leaving, a financial change, whatever it is. Something has changed and you have decided to exert more fight in it.


As for me, I don't really understand much more than what I have written here. Furthermore, I'm not willing to help save a "marriage" like this. I don't see a future for this marriage, not without both of you willing to make HUGE changes in the way you both view


committment
marriage
loyalty
sexual fidelity
honesty


and a host of other life-partner interactions. Plus, given the past history and current committment to the MB program, I don't see your ideation and use of the concepts here toward saving your marriage as productive. What I see you doing is more of "making your point" to your husband.



I could be wrong.


Right now, I think I am right.




SB
SB -

I'm not the person I was 10 years ago when my WH and I got together. I am not the same person I was 5 years ago, or 2 years ago. No one is - you make mistakes, some bigger than others, and you try to be a better person. No one is beyond change, no one is beyond saving.

I do not want to teach WH a lesson - I want to build a sustainable marriage with him. Regardless of everything, I do love him with all my heart. Maybe that's foolish, given our past. I don't know.

I have tried Plan A, but as long as he remains in contact with his OW, it's too painful for me. I'm currently being civil and polite. He will be moving out at the end of the month, and at that time I conduct all contact with him via an IM.

However, I understand the feelings on this board about my situation. I will continue to post, as it provides me some relief. I don't expect that many will post back to me. For those who don't, I understand. For those who do, I am grateful.
He got back in contact with her last night.

I don't know how to be ok with it happening in the house where I live. He put in an application for a house today - I hope he gets it. I can't spend 2 more weeks with him.
In the meantime, the two people no one is thinking about are DS7 and the DD from the previous relationship. So sad for them.

AM

I'm thinking more about them than about anyone else. We've told DD18, and she's upset but handling it - she has an appointment with a family therapist to talk through some stuff.

We haven't told DS7 yet because he goes to camp for 4 days in 2 weeks and we don't want him to spend the entire time worried/anxious.

WH is convinced he'll be "fine" because it's better to be with parents who are apart, but happy.

I'm pretty sure he'll be devastated. I am dreading how he's going to take it, and I don't even know how I'm going to handle it if WH thinks I'm not going to see DS7 every day - there's no arrangement I will agree to that includes not seeing him daily.

OW also has two children, and I worry for them too.

Seraph, was reading your brokengirl thread and lots of people advised you to speak with the Harleys, either alone or with your h, because your sitch was so complicated,

Apologies if I missed this, but where did you end up with on that one?
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