Marriage Builders®
Posted By: Biker Nothing to Lose - 07/08/11 07:37 PM
When I first came on this site my wife was not having an affair - but since then things have changed. It was hard to really get help here because when I first came on everyone kept telling me she probably was when I knew for certain she was not....that did not mean there weren't problems between us that needed fixing - and I guess I felt instead of helping me work through the problems people were bent on convicing me she was already having an affair.
I'm to the point now where I have enough information to confront the person who she is now having an affair with and tell him to never talk to her again and break all contact. If he doesn't I have enough information to ruin his career - which woul drag my wife down too.
I have tried since learning of the affair to get my wife to do the right thing and end the relationship - but since she is unwilling to do so because she doesn't want to "lose a friend", I am ready to attack the problem by confronting the other party involved. I'm scared and depressed. I don't want to do what I feel I have to. I'm not sure that even ending things between them is enough at this point to save my marriage - but don't feel like I have anything to lose anymore!!!
Posted By: jessitaylor Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/08/11 08:19 PM
Hi there and welcome back,
I am sure you have read all the information on the site about exposure and Plan A and Plan B if you haven't then do so,
If you have confronted your wife with the proof and she refuses to give up her AP then exposure is next, she will be mad but so what she will get over it......
Do not warn her first, let both your families know, your children age appropriate and all your friends know as well ...If the OM has a wife and family they must know as well... you do it all in one swoop. You now have a plan of attack.
This will make the OM and your wife accountable to others now for their choices, the fantasy life they have been engaged in will hit reality right in the nose, no where to hide then.....
If they work together then the work place HR department has to be notified as well....
You and your wife should also send a NO CONTACT letter to OM that you both approve, they will be spiting mad for a while you marriage can survive that anger but not if your wife has another man in her life.....
and remember this line when she asks you why you chose to do this,
just tell her that you love her and you did what you did to save your marriage...
over and over again.
You could get your wife back, in the meantime PLan A her as best you can.....don't give her the heads up or the OM.
sit back and watch that relationship fall apart, you will then be in control of this situation.......If she moves out let her, after she calms down she will be back
good luck
jessi
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/08/11 08:54 PM
I appreciate your response and advice. Although there are some things that are really sticky so make it hard to work through her employer. I have talked with a few friends and family that I feel can help support me move forward in my plan of attack in this matter. Thank you for the response of telling her if she gets angry that I'm doing this because I'm trying to save our marriage....it really is why I am doing what I'm doing.
I wish this site wasn't quite so overwhelming. When I read one thing I have to stop and read something else and then something else....and pretty soon I'm tired and overwhelmed. I need the short version.....I'm ADD and I honestly can't handle too much reading that is jumping all over the place because my brain already does that!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/08/11 08:58 PM
If this board was so unhelpful to you in the past, what are you here for now? I noticed that in your first post, you didn't actually ask for any help. Why is that?

Also, how do you KNOW that she wasn't having an affiar before and now she was and what kind of advice were you given that drove her to have an affair? Were you using MB at all?
Posted By: V_planifolia Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/08/11 09:03 PM
For reference purposes:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/u...115#Post2341115

and

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/u...881#Post2455881
Posted By: Neak Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/08/11 09:12 PM
It's my fault he's back. I'm relentless. smile

Welcome back, Bugs. Sorry you find yourself in this section, though you just will not find better help than here. Most traditional counselors will not give you the quality of advice you get here, for free.

In most cases, the threat of exposure just is not enough to have a snowball's chance of ending the A. I want to express my opinion that, with the magnitude of the consequences to this (single) OM, he is actually quite likely to fold. OP's are very selfish, and this one stands to lose A LOT.

EN's can change over time, and change again. What do you think your WW's current EN's are?
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/08/11 09:21 PM
Probably the biggest reason I'm back is that I need support to follow through with what I feel I have to do. I'm not necessarily asking for help because I don't feel that I can explain all the variables involved and remain anonymous so don't feel completely safe. I have a plan of action, but am understandably feeling fear and anxiety about putting into play. I know not being able to give more details makes it hard to support someone, but just thought I would at least give this site another shot. I think there are a lot of great things here, but unfortunately did not have time in the past to properly explore them and put them into practice. I should have made it more of a priority - my fault! I still don't have a lot of time to sift through stuff, and get overwhelmed by too much info. at once too....grrr!
I'm not looking for someone to hold my hand, but guess I just realize some of my limitations in trying to fully and effectively use this site.
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/08/11 09:27 PM
I think she wants to feel loved and cared for and that she is "respected". I think she wants to feel like I support her in what she does. But when I ask her to help me know what that looks like (because I've tried to just come up with it on my own), she either tells me she already told me and I should remember - or doesn't think she should have to tell me, I should automatically know???
Thank you Neak for the encouragement.....I've definitely been to hell and back!
Posted By: markos Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/08/11 09:28 PM
Hi, Bugs. Good to see you back, but I'm sorry to hear about the circumstances.

You are in the right place, and if you get BUSY and energetic and start FIGHTING for your marriage, you might just win your wife back.

I know the amount of info might seem sort of overwhelming, but you know, you GOT TO DO THIS. You don't have time to wait any longer.

Have you considered seeing if you can get some anti-depressant medication for the interim? It can help smooth out your lows a bit and help you to keep going with a plan.
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/08/11 09:34 PM
I'm afraid anti-depressants could hinder my ability to go back to work if necessary. I have taken steps to have people to be accountable to as far as my emotions etc. - so feel like I have taken steps to curb the depression.
You are right, I DO NEED TO DO THIS!
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/08/11 11:37 PM
Ok....I know it is probably right in front of my nose, but looking for the stuff on plan a plan b, and can't find it. Don't know if it is because I'm really tired or just skipping over it???
Posted By: markos Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/09/11 01:41 AM
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

See also:
The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A
How to Plan B Correctly

I really recommend you read the entire Surviving Infidelity section:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5525_qa.html

Do you have the book, Surviving an Affair? It's ultra important. If you can't find it at a local library, the bookstore on this site has fast shipping.
Posted By: markos Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/09/11 01:47 AM
Other helpful links:
Scotland's Thread to Help Newly Betrayed Posters.

I felt that the When to Call it Quits series of articles (3 or 4 parts) contained some very important Plan B information that I didn't see clearly explained elsewhere.

I know it's a lot to read. I know it is overwhelming. But the more of it you read, the more prepared you will be and the more you will be able to fight this. YOU GOT TO DO THIS. Time is of the essence in killing an affair. There is some repetition in all this material, but repetition is good: you will be exposed to some concepts several times in different contexts, and that will help you see how the concepts apply and learn to recognize how to apply them to your own situation. It'll help you learn to think on the fly.
Posted By: markos Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/09/11 01:49 AM
Another resource for you: the Marriage Builders Radio program. Dr. Harley and his wife Joyce take calls and emails and provide free help on their show.

Free help.

They even send a free book.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb2.cfm?recno=12

(If you email Marriage Builders Radio and don't hear back within a day, post here and let us know. Many of us have had trouble getting through. I think lots of messages are getting caught by spam filters. Someone will help you get connected, I promise.)
Posted By: markos Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/09/11 01:56 AM
The point of Plan A is to demonstrate your willingness to your spouse to meet her emotional needs and build a romantic marriage with her, a relationship of mutual care. During this time your spouse's love bank may be closed, however, due to competition. Do not let this dissuade you, as during this time, the important thing is to let your spouse know of this willingness ... and also to let your spouse know that you will not tolerate a continued affair.

Men typically have more success in Plan A, women typically have less. Plan A is typically harder on women than on men, but it can be hard on men, too. I believe Dr. Harley's recommended time frame for Plan A for men is 3-6 months, though I've heard him say that some men can go longer with support, like the support available on this forum. I've also heard him tell a few men just to keep going as Plan A represented their best hope for recovery of their marriage.

Read about and plan for Plan B at the beginning of Plan A. Don't Plan A for months and then start reading about Plan B when you think it's time for it, as that is then too late.

(For any betrayed wives lurking reading this post, the timeline for Plan A for women is 3-4 WEEKS. Plan A is extremely hard on a woman's health and wellbeing. It's even more crucial for you to have Plan B ready to go at a moment's notice.)
Posted By: markos Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/09/11 02:01 AM
Plan B is motivated by the observation that the vast majority of affairs die a natural death within two years. Reality starts to set in, and the affairees discover that the affair relationship is not better than the marriage.

However, long before this point, most betrayed spouses have exhausted their love bank. An affair is one of the most abusive things that can be done to somebody. So if the betrayed spouse continues to subject himself or herself to the abuse of the wayward until the end of the affair, then once the affair is over the betrayed spouse may hate the wayward so much that recovery is impossible.

Plan B protects the remaining love that the betrayed spouse has for the unfaithful spouse, by eliminating exposure to the unfaithful spouse (who is the source of the betrayed spouse's pain). Some waywards may come to their senses in Plan B as a result of the loss of emotional needs being met by the betrayed spouse, but this is not the primary purpose of Plan B. The primary purpose is to wait out the affair and be ready for marital recovery at that time.
Posted By: markos Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/09/11 02:02 AM
Plan A tip: do it right. Plan A is not being a doormat. Stay in touch with Marriage Builders (and Dr. Harley if possible) for advice and supervision to make sure you are doing it right. Don't burn yourself out by doing it wrong.
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/09/11 02:12 AM
Thanks Markos for all the links, I will try to get through them!
Posted By: markos Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/09/11 02:44 AM
No problem, Bugs. You can do it. Get to reading!

Also, give serious consideration to giving Dr. Harley a call.
Posted By: markos Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/09/11 02:44 AM
Do you have the book, Surviving an Affair?
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/09/11 02:50 AM
Markos....I feel like I have the stick in a plan A scnario, now I just need to come up with a big juicy carrot.
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/09/11 02:54 AM
I don't have any of the books. I need to see if the library has them. I can see how I need to change some things to be more open and understanding in some areas, but more firm and in control of others. Still scared to death because there are so many variables that are unknowns!
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/09/11 03:41 AM
I've read so much tonight my brain hurts! Problem is with my ADD I'm going to have to read it all again probably a couple more times! GRRRRR I feel like it is helping me though in pulling together my plan of confronting the OP and demanding NC with my wife! I know it probably doesn't follow all the rules here, but circumstances dictate a little different attack.
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/09/11 12:12 PM
I feel so empty right now. I don't want to go anywhere, (don't want to go to church, buy food, or see people), I don't want to e-mail my wife or even have her call me....I don't want to deal with the confrontation, hurt feelings, and anger that I know are ahead of us. There is so much at stake here it isn't funny. I really don't know how I will survive the fallout of my wife's hurt feelings and anger. I know I didn't do what I needed to in order to keep this from happening, although I'm really not sure it would have mattered because the things that I did when I tried to do the MB was pretty much being ignored.....just feeling really low today.
Posted By: markos Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/09/11 03:25 PM
Originally Posted By: Bugs_Bunny
I've read so much tonight my brain hurts! Problem is with my ADD I'm going to have to read it all again probably a couple more times! GRRRRR I feel like it is helping me though in pulling together my plan of confronting the OP and demanding NC with my wife! I know it probably doesn't follow all the rules here, but circumstances dictate a little different attack.


I know the feeling ... I have to read and read and read again to understand something.

Nothing helped for me like listening to the radio show regularly. Massive repetition there, which is just what I needed. smile Have you given any more thought to sending questions about your situation in to Dr. Harley's radio program? Most people I know get identified there by an anonymous name, if that's a concern.

By the way, something I forgot last night: at this point in time, DO NOT direct your wife to this forum. You need us to help you be a little bit crafty to kill the affair, and since she is going to be on the side of the affair, presently, that will greatly complicate things. You can tell her you have found a plan for marital recovery and invite her to follow it with you, telling her that the two of you can begin just as soon as she ends the affair and establishes no contact.

I am so sorry you are in this situation, Bugs. Some marriages stay bad for years without ever developing something like this, and some become someone's excuse for betrayal. frown

I would order Surviving an Affair this very day, along with His Needs, Her Needs. HNHN is for you at this point, SAA is for both of you if she finds it and wants to read it.
Posted By: markos Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/09/11 03:25 PM
Originally Posted By: Bugs_Bunny
I really don't know how I will survive the fallout of my wife's hurt feelings and anger.


Bugs, we're gonna help you through this!
Posted By: markos Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/09/11 03:51 PM
I'm praying for you and your wife, Bugs. Refresh my memory; do you have any children?
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/09/11 08:21 PM
By the way, something I forgot last night: at this point in time, DO NOT direct your wife to this forum. You need us to help you be a little bit crafty to kill the affair, and since she is going to be on the side of the affair, presently, that will greatly complicate things. You can tell her you have found a plan for marital recovery and invite her to follow it with you, telling her that the two of you can begin just as soon as she ends the affair and establishes no contact.

[color:#000099] Don't worry....I'm anxious enough without having her sabatage stuff by knowing what I'm going to do before I do it. I have told her I have been reading stuff, but didn't give my source of material.[/color]
I am so sorry you are in this situation, Bugs. Some marriages stay bad for years without ever developing something like this, and some become someone's excuse for betrayal. frown
[color:#000099] I guess in a way it is my fault for not taking it more seriously before....but I honestly couldn't have done this before - I didn't have the energy to do it....but then, now I don't have a choice; I either do it or lose my mariage![/color]
I would order Surviving an Affair this very day, along with His Needs, Her Needs. HNHN is for you at this point, SAA is for both of you if she finds it and wants to read it. [/quote]

[color:#000099] I'll see if the library has it or maybe a local bookstore....I know - I'll check the pawn shop!!! (just kidding)![/color]
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/09/11 08:27 PM
Have two young kids! Thanks for the prayers!
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/09/11 10:33 PM
Tried to change the color of my responses on that post, don't know what happened???
Posted By: Neak Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/10/11 02:42 AM
I can't help you with the color; it has always done my bidding.

Relax. Take your time, and reread things as many times as you need to. Time is your friend, and the enemy of the A.

I sure didn't feel like being around people during the A, for lots of reasons. One is since I cried all the time, I didn't want to break down in public. Another is for months, no one knew. It was even a long time before I told my mom and sister. It was just too hard being around people who didn't know. And too, I just didn't feel like being with people. So I really do understand where you're coming from.

My best advice is to strike a balance. Don't put a bunch of pressure on yourself to be out in public all the time, and don't allow yourself to become a total recluse, either. Especially with small children, you do need some social interaction and fellowship with other believers to recharge your batteries.

One example that springs to mind is the time my mom took the kids to Imax to see an awesome 3D nature documentary. She invited me to go, and did her best to drag me along. The main reason I stayed home, even more than not wanting to be in public, was because I couldn't bring myself to 'waste' time watching a nature show that I could have used in intercessory prayer.

Intercessory prayer was THE KEY in my whole experience, and yet with hindsight I can see that I was not a good steward of my body as God's temple. I don't beat myself up about it; it was just one of the many lessons God taught me in all this.

I always encourage others to discipline themselves to care for their own health first, which will leave them stronger to attend to the tasks at hand. Balance in all things.
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/10/11 03:03 AM
haha Neak...you should read my FB status/note!
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/10/11 03:08 AM
I guess everything for me has to be black and white right now....no gray areas! LOL!
Posted By: No_Stress_Zone Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/10/11 04:09 AM
You will get used to the color thingies, brain died on what it's called LOL.

I hit quote on your post, you can see what happened. two [color] things next to each other. then the [/color]s at the end not meeting up with the first halves. Easy to do. I still mess that stuff up all the time.

See, messed up myself. YOU hit quote on this message lol and you will see where it did it. As soon as I hit preview, duh, they went away laugh LOL.


Originally Posted By: Bugs_Bunny
By the way, something I forgot last night: at this point in time, DO NOT direct your wife to this forum. You need us to help you be a little bit crafty to kill the affair, and since she is going to be on the side of the affair, presently, that will greatly complicate things. You can tell her you have found a plan for marital recovery and invite her to follow it with you, telling her that the two of you can begin just as soon as she ends the affair and establishes no contact.

[color:#000099] Don't worry....I'm anxious enough without having her sabatage stuff by knowing what I'm going to do before I do it. I have told her I have been reading stuff, but didn't give my source of material.[/color]

I am so sorry you are in this situation, Bugs. Some marriages stay bad for years without ever developing something like this, and some become someone's excuse for betrayal. frown
[color:#000099] I guess in a way it is my fault for not taking it more seriously before....but I honestly couldn't have done this before - I didn't have the energy to do it....but then, now I don't have a choice; I either do it or lose my mariage![/color]
I would order Surviving an Affair this very day, along with His Needs, Her Needs. HNHN is for you at this point, SAA is for both of you if she finds it and wants to read it.


[color:#000099] I'll see if the library has it or maybe a local bookstore....I know - I'll check the pawn shop!!! (just kidding)![/color] [/quote]
Posted By: Neak Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/10/11 04:10 AM
Paste it to your mirror if you have to. Any other encouraging sayings, too.
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/10/11 04:13 AM
I don't think my tape is strong enough to keep my computer on the mirror. Good idea though!
Posted By: Neak Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/10/11 04:28 AM
banghead laugh
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/10/11 04:46 AM
Talking to my wife right now really stresses me out! Don't want to break lines of communication though so sucking it up and trying to be positive!
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/10/11 06:23 AM
ugh....just had a long conversation with WS and she indicated when the topic rolled around that she would not "lose" a friendship with OP, but she knows we can not be in same space. Said he indicated if we were that he would intentionally say things to hurt me. I told her that data indicates that our marriage cannot survive if she does not break contact with OP, but was not pushy with her. I did not tell her that I also plan to confront OP soon, and still am just really anxious about the outcome of that meeting. I'm not afraid of him, I just want him to go away and get my wife back - but to be honest.....I can make him go away, but no guarantee of latter!
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/10/11 12:20 PM
I seem to be depressed every morning and it takes me awhile to get going in the day, which means I don't get all the stuff done in the day that I want to.
So feeling "sick" in the morning....does that mean I have "morning sickness" sick puke? "LOL (sorry to all you ladies who had to endure sickness during prenancy - not trying to disrespect you)
Posted By: jessitaylor Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/10/11 12:42 PM
bugs,
your feelings are very normal, just try to do a few things every day try to motivate yourself.....I know the hours flew by every day and I couldn't accomplish anything productive...........
I think as soon as your exposure takes place you will feel more in control. you will have stood up for yourself and your marriage.........
the madder they are the more you know it worked.......power is within you.
Nicely of course..............
we didn't like being sick every morning either, but just like it will for you in time that passes........
just keep thinking and saying you are doing what you need to do to save your marriage because you love your wife..........over and over again.......because YOU are worth any amount of trouble or aggravation ...............
a little hard work with a good result is what your objective is here..........transition period is hard and discouraging.......but the key is patience and letting the breakdown of the affair take it's course........
jessi
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/10/11 01:23 PM
I guess one of the things I need most right now is the encouragement! I know my feelings are normal, I guess I'm just so afraid of the consequences that I don't want to chicken out on confronting the OP!
Posted By: EverAfter2010 Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/10/11 03:31 PM
Your feelings ARE normal Bugs! And you're doing a great job. Do not be afraid. Exposure is the best thing that happens to us bs' b/c it truly hastens the end of the destructive affair.

Goal of the affairees is to slide everything under the rug, keeping the affair so low under radar that it's not funny. Meanwhile they spout out stuff to their bs' like "love u but not in love w/you" and "I feel more like roommates or best friends w/you" or garbage like that. Or they blame everything on you period, so that when they try to leave or take the affair up a notch, there's that idiotic justification (they think) for their affair. But in no way have I ever seen a wayward who was proud of their affair to the point that exposure had no effect.

It always has effect. And it does serious damage to the affair, if not killing it outright that very day. Don't be afraid of that wussy OM. Any guy who would sneak around with someone's wife is a scaredy cat weasel. Even if he's the size of goliath, he has the soul and heart of a weak little worm and he can be easily squashed!

Just stay strong my friend! We're praying for you. You've got that courage!

Remember, the goal is to make as much trouble for the affair that it makes it literally impossible to continue.
Posted By: Powerbane Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/10/11 03:43 PM
Might want to take a friend with you to be a witness in case this guy tries some crazy stuff or physically attacks you.

Sorry, just can't be too safe when dealing with the AP. They could claim all sorts of nutty things and even get you arrested.

Take care and God Be With You!
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/10/11 05:24 PM
Originally Posted By: peachyisback

Goal of the affairees is to slide everything under the rug, keeping the affair so low under radar that it's not funny. Meanwhile they spout out stuff to their bs' like "love u but not in love w/you" and "I feel more like roommates or best friends w/you" or garbage like that. Or they blame everything on you period, so that when they try to leave or take the affair up a notch, there's that idiotic justification (they think) for their affair. But in no way have I ever seen a wayward who was proud of their affair to the point that exposure had no effect.

It always has effect. And it does serious damage to the affair, if not killing it outright that very day. Don't be afraid of that wussy OM. Any guy who would sneak around with someone's wife is a scaredy cat weasel. Even if he's the size of goliath, he has the soul and heart of a weak little worm and he can be easily squashed!



Wow,I have heard all of those, and my thoughts were if I was the best friend, she would not be doing this to me. Tells me that she loves kids but not sure about me. Tries to convince me that OM has always been a good friend....which my response was that a good friend would have helped her to fix her marriage not become a part of the problem.

In spite of all that - I'm being honest that I do feel like crap, and I do need encouragement, and I am scared about the outcome. I want to be strong, but have taken so much abuse that it is honestly hard to be strong at this point even when I have everything to be in control of the situation!
Posted By: EverAfter2010 Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/10/11 05:28 PM
Tell ww that good friends do not DISRESPECT you by treating you like a common ho. It is not a compliment to seduce a friend and then bang them and ruin their lives and it is NOT what a friend would do.

YOU are in control of this. Bugs, YOU drive this. You can drive this family of yours away from this affair forever, or you can not act quickly and drive it into a wall.

Expose smartly. Bring a friend and have that var.
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/11/11 12:39 AM
Originally Posted By: peachyisback
Tell ww that good friends do not DISRESPECT you by treating you like a common ho. It is not a compliment to seduce a friend and then bang them and ruin their lives and it is NOT what a friend would do.


THANK YOU! My thoughts exactly!
Posted By: Neak Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/11/11 01:38 AM
Keep your chin up. Do your best and let go of the rest. Keep putting one foot in front of the other, and before you know it, the excruciating wait will be over.

Believe me, you will feel so much better when the exposures and confrontations are over. Stand firm and don't back down - you are on the side of righteousness here.

Also, since you're still struggling with depression, very understandable, think about who else might be able to join your support circle. People's reaction will likely surprise you. When it comes right down to it, most people are going to support you, while still being willing to reconcile with WW once they see she has changed. You need all the support you can get. Parents, close friends, pastors, all make a great team.

Another thing I encourage you to do is to distance yourself emotionally from your talks with WW. She will lie, she will spew venom at you, she will do anything she can to hold on to the comfortable knowledge of home life while still keeping on with her addiction. None of that is your problem. It's all on her.

Turn it into a game, where you learn to respond to fog talk. Someone around here surely knows where the thread is on how to do that. It involved confusing a wayward by always being polite, agreeing with them wherever possible (usually with a twist), and using the art of distraction when things begin to get heated. For example:

WW: You're so controlling. I don't even love you any more.
BH: You're right, and I can't wait till we're in love again. Did I tell you what the kids did this morning? It was hilarious!

That sort of answer and quick switch keeps them off balance. Even if they get angry, it's tough for them to follow you when you continually and cheerfully distract them.

It also gives you a way to inject a little humor into what are otherwise very stressful interactions. Just remember, the angrier she is, the better, because she isn't indifferent to you. Indifference is a much greater enemy than anger.
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/11/11 02:01 AM
Thanks Neak...I've been trying to be positive in my talks with her. She talks a lot about the OM and I just try to ignore it and talk about something else. I think the problem she is facing is that she is trying to desperately to hold onto the "friendship" with the OM, but doesn't totally want to lose her family. I told her that she couldn't have both because I am unwilling to share.
Posted By: Neak Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/11/11 02:07 AM
Very good.

Right now, in Plan A, you're expressing verbally what you expect. When she persists in the A (as she will), there are typically few consequences.

Plan B, where you cut off all contact with her until the A has ended and she is ready to work on the M, is where the consequences really start to pile up.

When a good exposure has already been done, and the effects from that have been felt, it just is a good foundation for Plan B and the arrival of the rest of the consequences.

In the meantime, everything she has to say is fog blah blah fog fog fog blah blah. Don't stress it.
Posted By: Surfer88 Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/11/11 03:32 AM
"WW: You're so controlling. I don't even love you any more.
BH: You're right, and I can't wait till we're in love again. Did I tell you what the kids did this morning? It was hilarious!"

Neak...awesome.

Stay focused, Bugs. You're doing great!
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/11/11 03:13 PM
Ok...in the last week I have told my parents and mother-in-law about my WS A. They both have expressed that they don't think I should confront OM even though I have told them that WS refuses to a NC order. I feel like they are supportive of me, but don't understand that for us to save our marriage I have to squash the A!
Posted By: Neak Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/11/11 06:36 PM
Good! You need them on your side. Even if they don't understand, they love you and will support you. You need that. And at whatever point WW is ready to rejoin the family, she will be able to mend those relationships.

I totally get why you are hesitant to expose on one last front. And if you were a total stranger, I would still push very hard for you to expose anyway.

What I will say instead, is that whenever the point comes that the final exposure is your only option, do it fearlessly and leave the consequences to God. He will rule in events for His glory.
Posted By: Lexxxy Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/11/11 09:24 PM
How long has her affair been going on?
And this is her 2nd affair, correct?
Is she remorseful?
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/12/11 12:46 AM
Has been going on since Jan. that I'm sure of, possibly Dec.
It is the second time, and I don't think she is remorseful and tries to blame me for it!
Not saying that I'm a perfect person and that there weren't things I could have done differently, but it was still her decision.
Posted By: Surfer88 Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/12/11 02:42 AM
Expose, Bugs.
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/12/11 12:08 PM
If you believe in prayer, please pray for me. My wife has asked me some questions that I believe has opened the door for some real discussion. I'm not going to say here exactly how I'm going to approach this because I honestly can't expect anyone to give me the advice I need without revealing things I can't say. I appreciate all your support, and hopefully the confrontation I'm anticipating will not be as bad as I expect.
Posted By: Tanam Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/12/11 01:22 PM
OK Bugs, man of mystery: I don't pray cos I aint a Christian, but good energy sent.

However unless you start being a little more open, it's impossible for anyone to guide you, not me, I am not a vet, but there are very skilled people here who could.

Keep your taker under control, listen to what she has to say, wait 15 seconds before responding to anything, keep responses short and to the point.

Give the whole conversation a time limit.
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/12/11 02:23 PM
I have taken my finger out of the dam. I'm not sure how today will end, but if nothing else I will at least probably know if my WW will want to work out our problems.

Thanks to Neak for the advice on the things I could not share publicly, and Makos for the call yesterday! I'm honestly scared about what is going to happen, but moving forward in faith!
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/12/11 03:23 PM
Just to clarify a little - I was encouraged this morning that WW has been asking questions about what our relationship would look like both together and seperated. I unloaded pretty much everything on her (major exposure) including that her afair is a secret no longer, that I have told my family and hers as well, and at this point she must choose between OM and her husband. I have not received a response as of yet, but am sure that she is in shock right now and may be trying to figure out how to spin this or actually face up to her responsibilities as a wife and mother???
I don't know if this helps or makes sense? Again, I'm not trying to let her out of anything, and am trying to approach her in a loving manner while at the same time exercising radical honesty approach. In doing that I had to give away my source, but I feel good about being honest with her no matter what the outcome!
Posted By: Neak Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/12/11 03:57 PM
Just to clarify, although you express the fact that she must choose between you and OM, and can't have both, you are not willing to be in a M with three people, etc., you don't actually enforce that unless/until Plan B.

Ultimatums are useless on WS's, so be cautious to always frame it as a boundary. She needs to choose, because YOU will not be part of a triangle. YOU will not allow adultery to be a permanent part of your life. YOU will not indefinitely tolerate the abuse of her cheating.

Back in college, my friends and I were ever and always quoting the wisdom from "The Land Before Time".

I can't MAKE you do anything!

Even though you know all this, you still have to monitor your wording so she doesn't have a chance to use it as some kind of ultimatum or excuse. (She may try anyway; just give her as little ammo as possible.)

Since you gave her your source of information, be prepared for her to go farther underground. Her words and actions will be very telling. You'll know when she is actually NC because she will begin to defog.

If you find another source, keep it under wraps till you're very sure the A is dead.
Posted By: Reynolds531 Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/12/11 04:46 PM
Don't back down one inch. No apology for standing up for your marriage. And make sure you contact everyone in the inner circle of your wifes life - BEFORE she spins a story to them "bugs and I have been split since before I met OM, just didn't want to tell you"

No apology, confidence, leadership.

You're on the right road.
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/12/11 06:11 PM
The accusations are piling in....especially that I have represented her as a [censored] to our family by telling them about the A.
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/12/11 07:01 PM
She is at least still talking to me! I've supposedly thrown her under the bus with her family. Grrrrr.....I hate this. No going back now though!
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/13/11 01:21 AM
Is it just me? I get the feeling that my WS thinks she is the only one that is going through pain because of what is happening. We had major chat today after I revealed to her that I had exposed her A to her parents and my parents. I worked very hard not to be mean or hurtful in all of my responses to her. I tried to talk to her lovingly, and speak mostly about rebuilding our relationship. Most of what she said to me I was anticipating thanks to y'all who have opened my eyes to what I need to do. I realize today is not the end but rather the beginning. Now that she feels I have completely broken her, I have an even bigger responsibility to build her up. There are still things we are going to have to work out - and to be honest I'm still not sure that there is enough to save our relationship - but I'm moving forward as if we are looking forward to a happy future together!
It isn't going to be easy, and I'm sure we will have setbacks...continue to lift me up in prayer!
Posted By: Reynolds531 Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/13/11 02:51 AM
Nothing we didn't all go through. Don't you back down one inch. Finish plan A strong, and when Mel gives you the post about what it will take for you to stay in this marriage follow every word. If she hasn't already.

Stay strong.
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/13/11 02:59 AM
She probably has, but doesn't mean I don't need to hear it again!
Posted By: Reynolds531 Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/13/11 03:03 AM
Bottom line, you are the prize. If she wants to be married, she needs to come to the table.

I will try to find her post.
Posted By: Reynolds531 Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/13/11 03:11 AM
Here you go!!



You did just great!! Good job!! Just go about your life business as usual. Don't let her fury interrupt you.

Let her wind down for a couple of days, then set her down and have a little CHAT with her. Let her know that you are willing to give her an opportunity to earn your forgiveness if she does certain things. You will not stay in a loveless marriage. What it will take to interest you in staying with this marriage is:

1. complete no contact for life with loserOM

2. affair proofing the marriage

3. committment to a plan of marital recovery

This next step is very important because if you don't recover the marriage you will have a crippled version of the pre-affair marriage that will likely lead to an affair and ultimately divorce. Just busting up the affair [and you did great, soldier!!] is the first step. Now the hard part starts!

And tell her you won't be leaving and that if she wants to leave she is free to go, but she cannot take your child without a court order. You will expect her to pay child support if she leaves tooere you GO!
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/13/11 04:13 AM
Ok....I needed this before she called me tonight. She thinks I totally disrespected her by telling her parents - that she can never recover from this. I tried to show her that her A disrespected me, (tried to do in a loving way, but not sure I was successful). She is stressed out understandably and angry. Thinks that I need to stop reading books on how to survive an A and let her deal with this when she is ready to.
I'm not sure our relationship will survive this, but I don't feel scared anymore....just sad that whenever I showed her how she hurt me she accuses me of trying to place ALL the blame on her.
I have plenty of faults, but pointed out that I was not the one who had the A. That was her. I need some serious sleep!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/13/11 04:20 AM
Thats great, BugBunny!! You are doing good.

I haven't read your whole thread, but if there is anyone else who doesn't know about the affair, I would expose to them now and encourage them to speak to your wife about it. The more people who know the better. It should be done at the same time so you get your moneys worth out of her anger. If she is going to be angry, you need it be worthwhile and meaningful.

Doing just a little bit, a trickle exposure, is not enough to kill the affair but just enough to infuriate the WS enough to come after you. And that is the last thing a BS needs. If your WS is going to be angry, make sure it is for a VERY GOOD REASON. And exposure is a very good reason!

Good exposure targets are parents of all concerned, other family, friends, children. The OM's family and friends should be informed too. This is especially critical when there is a WW because exposing to his family will ruin her future chances in that family.

Keep up the good work!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/13/11 04:21 AM
Originally Posted By: Bugs_Bunny
She thinks I totally disrespected her by telling her parents - that she can never recover from this.


dramaqueen

That's nice. smile
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/13/11 04:34 AM
Bugsbunny, have you outright DEMANDED that she end her affair? Dr. Harley suggests that you demand she end her affair:

From the new book by Dr. Harley Effective Marriage Counseling pg 94:

"Granted, there are situations when demands may be necessary in marriage. During a spouse's affair, for example, I recommend that the betrayed spouse demand there be no contact with the lover. If there is continued contact, separation or even divorce would be the logical consequence. While normally demands don't work, in this case there are no reasonable alternatives because thoughtful requests are even less likely to separate lovers."
Posted By: markos Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/13/11 05:36 AM
Originally Posted By: Bugs_Bunny
I have taken my finger out of the dam.


You are the man, Bugs!

(Wow, did I ever pick a bad day to be out of town with no internet access...)

She may rant and rage for a little while and throw all manner of fogbabble and hurtful comments at you. But I assure you, my friend, you just changed the balance of power, and you also became a much more attractive man.

hurray weightlifter

Remember that a dose of hard, sobering reality is the only thing that can kill the alien within the woman you are trying to save.

Also, understand that this is somewhat like ripping off a bandaid. Best to rip it off all at once and go through this ONCE rather than lots of little slow gradual tugs, each one hurting as much as the last.
Posted By: markos Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/13/11 05:37 AM
And I see you online there and hope you see this before you log out. smile
Posted By: markos Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/13/11 05:49 AM
Originally Posted By: Bugs_Bunny
I have taken my finger out of the dam.


Let the flood waters roll. This is what she needs.

Quote:
I'm not sure how today will end, but if nothing else I will at least probably know if my WW will want to work out our problems.


She is nowhere near the point of rationality where she can make this kind of decision. At this point there is no predicting what she is going to decide. She could be saying one thing right now and change her mind tomorrow.

When the affair is dead, she will begin to defog. At that point she may finally count the costs of what she has doing. When that reality sets in, she may rue everything she has done and be desperate for a chance to try to make things right.

Get SAA and read the whole book, pronto. Keep reading the other materials here.
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/13/11 06:27 AM
Not sure I ever log out...LOL! Just got a call from her and we talked for awhile. Managed to do so without any poison darts being thrown through the phone (last conversation she hung up on me). Definitely have the hardest part ahead of us since we both have to be willing to work together on something that has caused us both pain!
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/13/11 06:29 AM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: Bugs_Bunny
She thinks I totally disrespected her by telling her parents - that she can never recover from this.


dramaqueen

That's nice. smile


LOL...I love that response!
Posted By: markos Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/13/11 02:14 PM
Originally Posted By: Bugs_Bunny
Definitely have the hardest part ahead of us since we both have to be willing to work together on something that has caused us both pain!


Yes, you do, but until the affair is killed, this is putting the cart in front of the horse. She may bounce between being nice and being a terror, but until the affair is killed, you will not be able to work together.
Posted By: markos Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/13/11 02:16 PM
Originally Posted By: Bugs_Bunny
With my WS, her ideas of what people think/say about her are often much worse than they are. Due to some other circumstances I believe that the exposure itself was something that either will be enough to squash the A, or it won't matter anyway. If I don't take the opportunity to now start making aggressive deposits in her account, then I will have missed an opportunity that may not present itself to me again!


Bugs, did you read this:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2527736#Post2527736

Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
In order to fill her love bank, you need to kill her affair. And how do you kill her affair? You expose it and create as much conflict as possible. Once it is killed, you will be able to fill her lovebank. But as long as she is having an affair, her lovebank is closed to you. Do you see that?
Posted By: markos Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/13/11 02:17 PM
Bugs, reread this, also:

Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Thats great, BugBunny!! You are doing good.

I haven't read your whole thread, but if there is anyone else who doesn't know about the affair, I would expose to them now and encourage them to speak to your wife about it. The more people who know the better. It should be done at the same time so you get your moneys worth out of her anger. If she is going to be angry, you need it be worthwhile and meaningful.

Doing just a little bit, a trickle exposure, is not enough to kill the affair but just enough to infuriate the WS enough to come after you. And that is the last thing a BS needs. If your WS is going to be angry, make sure it is for a VERY GOOD REASON. And exposure is a very good reason!

Good exposure targets are parents of all concerned, other family, friends, children. The OM's family and friends should be informed too. This is especially critical when there is a WW because exposing to his family will ruin her future chances in that family.

Keep up the good work!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/13/11 02:39 PM
Bugs, are you reading my posts? I think you have a confused understanding about Plan A and want to make sure you understand the most critical part of Plan A is exposing the affair [wide and far] AND in demanding she end her affair. Plan A does not mean saying nice words to someone who is being bad. It means being honest and forthright while avoiding lovebusters. The affair should be brought up over and over again by demanding she end it. This puts pressure on the affair. This should be coupled with family and friends and children contacting her about her affair. They should all be telling her how disgusted they are and trying to persuade her to end her affair. This is what it will take to kill her affair.

My concern for you now is that you have done a trickle exposure. A trickle exposure - versus a nuclear exposure - is about like taking a pea shooter to a gun fight. You just end up getting shot and achieve very little. You have a very tiny window to expose this affair properly before you lose this advantage of a tsunami exposure. Don't throw away your most powerful weapon by being timid about exposure, BB.

Here is what Steve Harley said to another betrayed husband who was being too soft with his wayward wife:

Quote:
Another critique he made about how I have brought it up in the past was that I was way too casual or 'cool' about it. I explained that I was trying to show confidence and demonstrate that I would be "OK" whether or not we stayed together. I would try to stay calm and rational when talking to her and this obscured just how passionately I feel about recovering our marriage. He feels that this may have shown her that marital recovery wasn't really that important to me if I was talking about it very nonchalantly.


In other words, your wife needs to see a greater effort from you. She needs to see you fighting for your marriage. Complacence gives the impression that you don't care very much, my friend.

Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Bugsbunny, have you outright DEMANDED that she end her affair? Dr. Harley suggests that you demand she end her affair:

From the new book by Dr. Harley Effective Marriage Counseling pg 94:

"Granted, there are situations when demands may be necessary in marriage. During a spouse's affair, for example, I recommend that the betrayed spouse demand there be no contact with the lover. If there is continued contact, separation or even divorce would be the logical consequence. While normally demands don't work, in this case there are no reasonable alternatives because thoughtful requests are even less likely to separate lovers."
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/13/11 02:40 PM
What about the OM's family? Is he married? If so, have you informed his wife? What about his mother? Does he have a facebook page?
Posted By: Reynolds531 Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/13/11 05:04 PM
Bugs take the advice from Mel. All at once, no holding back.

No retreat. No apology. This stuff works, it really does!
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/13/11 08:38 PM
I did not trickle down. I exposed to everyone that I'm going to. To go around telling everyone and their cousin is not in my best interest - which you are going to have to trust me on that. I have used a lot of the tools here, and I believe that they are valid and effective, and I appreciate all the advice and support I have received.
I know some are going to think I feel like I'm special and not willing to everything as perscribed because my situation is "different". The only things that I have held back on are areas in which I believe that to do them the way it is described would make me a victim all over again.
I am encouraged at the way things have progressed to this point and feel like I have gone at least from feeling like we are 99.99% headed towards divorce, to at least being in the discussion for salvaging our marriage. There is a lot of work still left to do - this is my time to prove myself!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/13/11 10:26 PM
Originally Posted By: Bugs_Bunny
I did not trickle down. I exposed to everyone that I'm going to. To go around telling everyone and their cousin is not in my best interest - which you are going to have to trust me on that.


I never ever recommended that you expose to "everyone and their cousin" and am insulted you said that. I am much more strategic than that. And no, I don't trust your judgment on this. Not because there is anything wrong with you, but you a) have no experience at saving marriages and b) are the least objective person on this thread. Betrayed husbands have a tendency to operate on FEAR and you have already admitted that fear drives much of your decision making. BH's tend to have a strong emotional investment in conflict avoiding and I haven't seen anything here that makes me think otherwise.

You said yesterday that you exposed to ONE person and have actually hidden that exposure from your wife for some time. [WHY?] A one person exposure is meaningless. Are there others to whom the affair has been exposed? What about other family and friends? Your children? The OM's family?

Are there other hidden "exposures?" To whom have you exposed and does your wife know all about them?

Quote:
There is a lot of work still left to do - this is my time to prove myself!


I agree this is true. And the way to prove yourself is to do more to break up this affair. Since you are not in a position now to meet her needs, it is real important that you focus on busting up this affair.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/13/11 11:00 PM
What does Dr Harley say about a strategy of non exposure? He speaks to a man in this call who didn't expose his wife's affair and she LEFT HIM for the OM. Dr Harley tells this man "it is hard to save a marriage when you enable the affair."

Listen here
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/13/11 11:07 PM
Originally Posted By: Bugs_Bunny
I did not trickle down. I exposed to everyone that I'm going to. To go around telling everyone and their cousin is not in my best interest - which you are going to have to trust me on that. I have used a lot of the tools here, and I believe that they are valid and effective, and I appreciate all the advice and support I have received.
I know some are going to think I feel like I'm special and not willing to everything as perscribed because my situation is "different". The only things that I have held back on are areas in which I believe that to do them the way it is described would make me a victim all over again.
I am encouraged at the way things have progressed to this point and feel like I have gone at least from feeling like we are 99.99% headed towards divorce, to at least being in the discussion for salvaging our marriage. There is a lot of work still left to do - this is my time to prove myself!


Who have you exposed?
Posted By: Neak Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/14/11 12:30 AM
The point of exposure is to tell those who have an influence on your WW or the OM, to give them the opportunity to use that influence for good.

I disagree that WW is broken, no matter how depressed she sounds. She is cracked, but broken looks much different.

The longer this drags on, the more concerned I am for your own health, especially with all that you suffered in the months and years leading up to this break, added to the trauma of the adultery itself.

You've tried waiting for the OM to contact you so you can confront him, while your stomach eats away at its own lining. Time for you to take charge of each part of your destiny, including this one.

Though I don't nag about it (much wink ) I still advocate exposure to the employer as a best possible choice. You can deal with even the worst fallout from that and have a chance at your M, but as long as the A continues, or even the daily C that is INEVITABLE while they still work together, your M has no chance.

Having family members contact her with their true feelings about her present choices is also so important. That alone may not be enough to break her, but it will really help the process along.

You want her broken.

Until she has been truly shattered, God has no clear avenue of communication, and neither do you. It's like you're shouting at her through a 3-ft thick wall of jello. She can catch a word every now and again, and occasionally a whisper of the Holy Spirit, but not much else.

If you choose at this point to continue to hold back on the workplace exposure, please keep it near the front of your mind if your other efforts do not fully succeed.

You've made some really great progress, and I see encouraging things happening. This is the time to stand up and fight even harder. You can do it!
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/14/11 03:53 AM
Originally Posted By: Neak


The longer this drags on, the more concerned I am for your own health, especially with all that you suffered in the months and years leading up to this break, added to the trauma of the adultery itself.



I agree that health can be an issue. Depression can be an issue too. Since having confrontation with her and exposing her to both of our families (sorry not going to have my kids in on this), and also some of our more influential mutual friends - my whole demeanor and overall general feeling has improved dramatically. I know y'all don't think she has broken, but we have gone from angry venomous language on her part to having civil conversations. I don't know what else to say because I'm really encouraged, and most of y'all think I need to drag things down further then what they already are.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/14/11 04:27 AM
BB, how old are your children? If they are older than 4, they are old enough to understand the concept of adultery and what she is doing to their family. Your kids ARE in this and giving them false explanations for the tension just teaches them dishonesty and confusion. Kids can deal with the truth, they cant deal with lies.

As far as exposure, can you be specific? Are these "exposures" that were also kept secret? Because unless these people are talking to your wife, the value of "exposure" has been squandered.

Her new civility is meaningless unless she has ended her affair. Has she ended her affair? Unless she has ended her affair and all contact with the OM I would suggest you don't have anything to be encouraged about.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/14/11 04:56 AM
Dr. Harley on telling the children:

Quote:
The same can be said about telling children about an affair. My experience with the positive outcomes of hundreds of families where an affair has been exposed to children has led me to encourage a betrayed spouse not to fear such exposure. In fact, to mislead children, giving other false explanations as to why their parents are not getting along, causes children to be very confused. When they finally discover the truth, it sets an example to children that dishonesty is sometimes acceptable, making them the judge of when that might occur.

An affair is an attack on children as well as the betrayed spouse. And it's true that children are deeply affected by this form of irresponsible behavior. But it's the act of infidelity that causes children to suffer, not the exposure of it. Facts point us toward solutions. Illusion leads us astray. That's true for children as well as adults.
here

Quote:
Q: So, you do suggest telling our 10 year old son? Is this more than he can handle? He never saw any real unhappiness as my husband and I had a very low conflict marriage. I have been protecting our son from this truth. He still has hope that his dad is going to come home.
___________________________________
A: As for your son, the truth will come out eventually, even if you get back together again. And your son won't be emotionally crippled if he hears the truth. It's lies and deception that cripple children. He should know that your husband is choosing his lover over his son's mother. It's a fact. He's willing to ruin a family unit all for what.

When I first started recommending openness about an affair, I wasn't sure what would happen. But I did it because I knew it was the right thing to do. Now I know that for most couples it marks the beginning of recovery.



Quote:
The reason that children should know about an affair is that exposing it to the light of day (letting everyone know), helps give the unfaithful spouse a dose of reality. An affair thrives on illusion, and whatever a betrayed spouse can do to eliminate the illusion is justifiable. Mold doesn't grow well in sunlight.
here

Quote:
2. How honest should I be about the A? (they are 7 and under)

Tell your children as much as you can about their father's affair, and how it affects you. There are some counselors and lawyers that strongly disagree with me on this issue, but I have maintained that position for over 35 years without any evidence that children are hurt by it. They're hurt by the affair, not by accurate information regarding the affair. Just make sure that you don't combine accurate information with disrespectful judgments. For example, you can say that the OW has taken their father away from you, but you should not say that she is home-wrecker (or worse).
here

Quote:
My basic approach to life is that radical honesty is valuable on many different dimensions. It keeps us out of trouble, it helps others understand us, and it helps others avoid the same mistakes we have made. Letting your children know the details of your husband's affair would help them in all three areas.

The more your children know about your husband's affair, the more careful he will be to avoid them in the future.

The more your children know about his affair, the more they will understand what you are going through in your recovery (by the way, you are doing very well -- keep up the good work!).

Being radically honest about your husband's affair with your children would also help them avoid affairs themselves. How it happened and how could it have been prevented is a great object lesson for children. I learned that I was vulnerable for an affair when I learned about my grandfather's affairs. The extraordinary precautions I've taken were directly related to what I learned about him.

It's the approach I've always taken, and while it's difficult, especially for the WS, there's much more upside to it than downside.
Posted By: Neak Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/14/11 05:47 AM
They are very tiny people, too young to tell unless there's an actual split and WW moves out.

In the case of separation, even a 2-3yo can understand, "Daddy/Mommy left because he/she has a girlfriend/boyfriend. That's not ok when you're married. You're only supposed to love each other."
Posted By: Neak Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/14/11 06:20 AM
Quote:
I don't know what else to say because I'm really encouraged, and most of y'all think I need to drag things down further then what they already are.


You have reached a temporary lull in the storm. Enjoy it as a respite, without expecting it to last forever.

Her good stretch right now cannot predict the outcome of this, any more than the bad stretch just ahead will predict it. Both are just part of the process.

She's going to be all over the map, sometimes awful, and sometimes not as bad. This will go on for as long as she is in C with OM, and for a while afterwards, too.

Take advantage of the break, without being surprised by any sudden changes in her behavior toward you.

I really recommend a phone call to the Harleys. They can help you implement a custom plan, taking all your circumstances into account. Well worth every penny! (And cheaper than a D, I always say.) I may sound like a Harley commercial, lol, but for the most part I only recommend this to folks who may need specialized advice.

Your WW's A isn't any different or special, and your reactions as a BH are also pretty standard. (That's a good thing.) Dr. H or Steve can help you find your course of action and make a plan, with your input, and keeping your full circumstances in mind.
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/14/11 06:53 AM
Thanks for all the added info.....and clarification...understanding.
I have a 3 and 4 year old that just are not ready to be used in telling WS how wrong her actions have been. She already knows that.
Posted By: Neak Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/14/11 01:26 PM
Children are never "used" as exposure targets. The reason you tell an older child (about 5 and up) even if their parent hasn't left, is that they WILL sense that something is terribly wrong, and they WILL blame themselves for it unless they are told the truth.

IMO, your children are small enough that they should only be told if WW leaves. Not for anything it may or may not do to WW, but to avoid compounding their trauma by their normal and predictable reaction to blame themselves for everything in their world. For little people, everything in the world revolves around them. smile

By the time it sank in that children should be told, AJ's A was over. I didn't see any reason at that time to dig it back out and parade it in front of them, but in hindsight I wish we had.

3-4 years after it ended, when they learned the truth, both of the older guys still remembered TONS of specific episodes that had never made sense to them, and suddenly they understood. "Oooooohh, so that time when Dad took us to x place and did x with us, that was why?" "Oooooooooh, so the time Dad said this to me, that was why?" A piece of their life that had (unbeknownst to me) always puzzled them, now fit perfectly.

It helped them tremendously.

Sometimes exposure to old-enough children helps the WS, and sometimes it doesn't. That just isn't the reason why it's needed - it's for the benefit of the kids.

Your babies are old enough, should WW ever leave home for a while, to blame themselves. At that time, they should be told the truth in a very simple way like I described above. (NOT "Your mommy has decided that sex with other men is ok, even though she's married. That's bad.")

You can tell them just enough to understand, without going into detail that they don't need to know.
Posted By: Neak Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/14/11 01:40 PM
Your reading assignment for the next few days is to read stories of WW's on here who have become FWW's.

I can give you the name of some of the old-timers, and hopefully someone will chime in with some more recent names, too. (Many of the recent FWW's I haven't seen their story, and they post so GOOD that you can't tell they were once WW's themselves.)

Look up BobPure's threads, since even though he was the one writing, he has great insight into the time when his beautiful W was a WW. Mrs. Wondering is another great one, and also aussieswife. Mrs. W hooked up with an old boyfriend on FB, and turned into a raving monster bearing no resemblance to the wonderful Christian she is now. Aussieswife cheated while her BH was deployed. She was already a pillar on here when I began reading her posts in 2005. Once when I looked up some of her earliest posts, I was SHOCKED to find out that she sounded foggy just like all the rest of them.

If you run a search for their profiles, click on Show User's Posts, and just go to the earliest ones you can find.

I'll look up some of them if I can. I'm just trying to remember more....
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/14/11 01:45 PM
FWW?
Posted By: Neak Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/14/11 01:54 PM
Bob Pure

Mrs. W's first thread

Faithful Follower! How could I forget Faithy? She is a WW and a BW, wonderful lady!

Aussieswife
Posted By: Neak Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/14/11 01:54 PM
Former Wayward Wife
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/15/11 12:07 AM
Ok...I read a bunch of these, but now my brain is in overload!
Posted By: Neak Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/15/11 05:37 AM
You can't eat the whole cow in one sitting! Maybe slow down and read the most applicable parts several times. I read and reread stuff to the point where, if it had been a book, it would have been in tatters.
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/16/11 11:23 AM
Went to a going away party/B-day party for a friend last night. At last minute the person who invited me told me OM was going to be there and it might be a little awkward. I told him I really didn't care and that I was still going to come since I had done nothing wrong!
At the party OM wouldn't look at me let alone come within about 15-20 feet of me. Since I was seated near guest of honor - he hardly said more than a few words to him the whole night...LOL!
Posted By: Neak Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/16/11 11:59 PM
Very typical behavior - he knows good and well he should be ashamed. An evening like that which doesn't end with anyone going to the police station is a happy ending.

A word of caution to clear my own soul smile , though at this stage of things a face-to-face like that can be very good, since it shines a spotlight on the OP's bad behavior, and also lets them see that the BS they have spat on is a living, breathing human being, the time quickly comes where this is counter-productive to the BS. Very quickly, it will be more of a trigger than you can realize at the time, until you stop.

I can understand if you didn't want to have any confrontation at the friends party - that pesky police station thing again - but since he's clearly in town this is the time to lay out your expectation of NC to him. A few recommendations:

1. Don't assume this is going to end the A by itself. It's more likely to make things uncomfortable for the affairees than to end things on the spot.

2. I strongly recommend doing this by phone, rather than in person. You probably have great self-control, but better safe than sorry.

3. Look up your state's laws about recording conversations. Many will allow recordings if at least one party (you) is aware of the recording. If your state doesn't allow recording without consent, have a witness with you of upstanding character.

4. In this conversation, DO NOT give even a hint that you plan to expose to his parents/family, assuming you have not already done so by that time.

5. Whether before or after, exposure to his family is SO IMPORTANT! It needs to be carefully and respectfully done, since you are trying to enlist them as allies, not trash on their loved wittle boy.

Bad exposure letter:

Quote:
OM parents,
Didn't you raise your scummy son any better than to boink married women? What were you thinking?????? Tell him to back off or else!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BH


Good exposure letter:

Quote:
OM parents,

It pains me to tell you that your son, Mr. OM, has become involved in an adulterous relationship with my W, Mrs. WW. I have incontrovertible evidence of this, which I can provide to you at your request.

I love my W, and want the chance to repair our M, not only for my own sake, but for our two small children, ages 3 and 4. We won't have a chance to restore our love while Mr. OM is still in the picture.

Please use any influence you have to encourage Mr. OM to end this adulterous affair, and give my family a chance to heal. Feel free to contact me with any questions at X method of contact.

Thank you,
BH


Such a letter is respectful, disarming, and assumes they will want to come down on the side of righteousness and justice. And most of the time, they will.

You have NO IDEA how powerful this part of exposure is until you try it. If you don't know how to find OM's family, we can post some suggestions, and I'll ask AJ, besides.
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/19/11 03:06 AM
Ok Neak,
My response suddenly disappeared into thin air....so just respond to what you think I would have said!

God His Needs/Her Needs book today, and Surving Affair book. Will probably wait till tomorrow to start reading since reading books at night tend to tire me out pretty fast, and don't retain very much that way.
Posted By: Neak Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/19/11 04:28 PM
You give me waaaaaaaaay too much credit. grin

Enjoy the books, keep reading the stories, and you'll be amazed by how much you learn.
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/20/11 03:24 AM
Actually made it through intro and first chapter of His Needs/Her Needs! Maybe I should read the other book first??? Right now need sleep more than anything so I won't be constantly tired!
Posted By: markos Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/20/11 04:42 AM
Great, Bugs! I do think you should probably read SAA first.

And get some sleep!
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/26/11 11:34 PM
Almost through first book, His Needs/Her Needs....for myself I had to read that one first. Will probably finish and start the other one in a few days. And then should probably read His Needs/Her Needs again!

Have been offline for a few days with a lot of stuff going on. But don't worry - I'm still around.
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/27/11 04:02 PM
Finished reading the first book and am debating whether to send it to my wife or not...not sure she will read it - or even make time to read it??? I know I would benefit by reading it again, but not being much of a reader need to read the other book first!

I feel like right now my wife is making plans for the future without including me in the planning. She wants my thoughts, but I don't think she is even telling me everything that she is telling me. I think she is feeling really hurt right now and is pushing me away, but really don't know how to bridge the gap. It is hard when we are working in different countries/time zones right now!!!
Posted By: Prisca Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/27/11 04:10 PM
Originally Posted By: Bugs_Bunny
Finished reading the first book and am debating whether to send it to my wife or not...not sure she will read it - or even make time to read it??? I know I would benefit by reading it again, but not being much of a reader need to read the other book first!

If, by "the first book," you mean HNHN, then don't send it to her. HNHN is not a good place for a WW to begin reading. She will find all kinds of excuses for her behavior. She needs SAA, if anything.
Posted By: markos Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/27/11 04:19 PM
Originally Posted By: Prisca
Originally Posted By: Bugs_Bunny
Finished reading the first book and am debating whether to send it to my wife or not...not sure she will read it - or even make time to read it??? I know I would benefit by reading it again, but not being much of a reader need to read the other book first!

If, by "the first book," you mean HNHN, then don't send it to her. HNHN is not a good place for a WW to begin reading. She will find all kinds of excuses for her behavior. She needs SAA, if anything.



Please, Bugs, don't send your wife any Marriage Builders books right now. She cannot start Marriage Builders with you until she ends her affair. And Prisca is right, Dr. Harley says a wayward spouse should be reading Surviving an Affair, not HNHN.

DO NOT SEND YOUR WIFE HNHN UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES RIGHT NOW. She will get the wrong ideas from it.

When are you going to get to start reading SAA?
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/27/11 04:34 PM
I will definitely read the other book...can't comment on which book is better for her without reading the other one first...just letting y'all know that I'm still alive, but have been spending time reading instead of being online. I get tired easily reading which is one reason I don't like to read much (I would do better if they had the book on a CD), and by the time I have time to read I'm often already tired and don't feel like reading. Anyway, I'll keep in contact here, don't think that I've disappeared just because I stop posting alot! Thanks to all who continue to encourage me!
Posted By: Prisca Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/27/11 04:39 PM
Quote:
can't comment on which book is better for her without reading the other one first..
You don't need to comment on it. It's simply a fact. Dr. Harley himself has said that HNHN will not help a WW (and it especially WILL NOT help an WW in an active affair).
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/27/11 04:45 PM
Originally Posted By: Bugs_Bunny
I will definitely read the other book...can't comment on which book is better for her without reading the other one first...



BB, like the others said, you don't want to give her HNHN at this time. That is the WRONG book for a wayward and the wrong book for you. You need to be reading Surviving an Affair. Don't give HNHN to a wayward! And for sure, don't bring her here now. You will lose this place as a resource.
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/27/11 07:14 PM
I started the SAA book today.

And I was not intending to send her to this site, but had contemplated sending the book. I will respect your judgement though and not send her any books right now. She will be home in a couple of months, will see what happens then.
Posted By: markos Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/27/11 07:42 PM
Great, Bugs, keep reading!
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/27/11 09:08 PM
Have read 3 chapters so far of SAA, which is good for a non-reader!
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/27/11 09:24 PM
Dr. Harley's writing style is pretty easy to get through, and get through quickly... I think I read HNHNfP and SAA in a day or two each, and I am NOT a speed reader.
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/27/11 11:16 PM
LOL....I'm not a speed reader.....reading makes me tired, so not much of a reader period. I like to read, just don't like to fall asleep doing it!
Posted By: markos Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/28/11 02:42 AM
Originally Posted By: Bugs_Bunny
Have read 3 chapters so far of SAA, which is good for a non-reader!


Yes, it is.
Posted By: Neak Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/29/11 04:15 AM
SAA is what you need right now. It shows you the path you and WW both need to take in order to get to the place where you can implement HNHN.

I found my copy of HNHN at the thrift store for $.35 and snapped it up in a hurry. It's an incredible book, and much more fun to do that stuff than SAA stuff.

It does give you a view of what wonderful things may be on the other side of the hard and unpleasant job of busting up and surviving an A.
Posted By: markos Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/29/11 02:21 PM
Originally Posted By: Neak
SAA is what you need right now. It shows you the path you and WW both need to take in order to get to the place where you can implement HNHN.


Absolutely.
Posted By: markos Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/29/11 02:23 PM
Bugs, if you are a non-reader, I strongly recommend you start a practice of listening to Dr. Harley's radio show every day. It's like taking a course from Dr. Harley. I wouldn't use that to replace the books, but to supplement, review, and reinforce them.

Is your phone an iPhone? There's an iPhone app that lets you get the radio program automatically every day and listen to it on the go.

But I echo Neak and strongly suggest that you drop everything else and read through SAA, fast. Time is of the essence.
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/30/11 05:41 AM
Ugh....thanks for all the encouragement. Haven't read anything today, and honestly right now I just want to quit....is that normal? (Either quit or go into separation where I don't have to deal with roller coaster attitude.)
Posted By: Neak Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/30/11 06:05 AM
Yes, absolutely normal.

However, at this stage if you go into a separation it will almost certainly end in D. WW's typically need more work than WH's to attract them back into the M. You can do it, and I gave you some shining examples of WW's who made it back from Zombieland.

If you give up now, you'll never know if you could have made a difference. If you go through the whole plan, start to finish, you'll at least know you did everything you could. And you'll be well set up for your own happilyeverafter, hopefully with her, and still happy even if she chooses another way.

Here is the link where you can listen to a new radio program every day. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4200_radio.html Each weekday there is a new show, which then broadcasts every hour around the clock till the next show. Friday's show plays all weekend.
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/30/11 10:30 AM
I'm not the one who wants the separation. I'm just so totally frustrated that I almost don't care anymore.
Posted By: markos Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/30/11 11:44 AM
Bugs, this is why time is of the essence. If you strike hard against the affair, and eliminate it, you can begin healing. If you wait and only take weak ineffective actions, the affair will grind you down.
Posted By: Neak Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/30/11 03:58 PM
If WW really, really wanted the separation, she would have already filed. Mostly likely she's hoping to wear you down, just like you are, so you get tired enough to file and then she doesn't have to feel so bad. "He filed, after all."

AJ admitted this after his A. He had deliberately tried to be so horrible to me that I would give up on him and he would be "free" to move on with the OW. He didn't want to do it himself, and wanted me to be the bad guy. It was so frustrating for him at the time that I wouldn't play the game by his rules.

Quote:
Bugs, this is why time is of the essence. If you strike hard against the affair, and eliminate it, you can begin healing. If you wait and only take weak ineffective actions, the affair will grind you down.


Egg-zack-lee!
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/30/11 07:18 PM
I guess I just wonder who would be more free? Her or me? I know y'all will probably slam me, but I'm just really tired of "fighting".
Posted By: Neak Re: Nothing to Lose - 07/31/11 06:48 AM
What's to slam? It's your right to decide when you've had enough, and when you want to stop fighting.

Many people here want to explore their options for saving their M's, even if it involves a lengthy, painful, tiring battle. Others do not. It's a personal decision.

Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might. No matter which choice you make, throw your effort and energy into it. What you don't want to do is limp along without a plan.

Are you willing to talk to the Harleys before you decide? They're even better than all of us, and I don't receive any commission for saying so. wink
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 08/01/11 05:40 AM
I'm willing I guess to talk to them, but not sure at this point if it will change anything. She doesn't appear to want to reconcile the relationship, and I'm not sure at this point that I am bothered by it. I feel like I should be upset about it - but at least right now it is almost like I'm relieved.
Posted By: Neak Re: Nothing to Lose - 08/01/11 03:32 PM
It's a fight to kill an A and R a M, no question. And while there is always a risk of failure, the odds IMO are worth it.

People who have kids are often willing to fight even harder to protect the littles from the terrible damage inflicted by a broken home.

There comes a point where it is useless to actively continue the fight, and that's when Dr. H recommends Plan B, and waiting for 2 years for the A to end on its own.

While I would still recommend Plan A for you as your best course of action at this time, I would recommend Plan B as a better option than a D.

The reason for this is of COURSE she doesn't want to reconcile at this point. She's still actively in an A. She wants to protect her drug...the happy chemicals that actually flood her brain whenever she sees or thinks of OM. She's a totally typical WW, reading right from the script every day that ends in "y".

Why you don't feel bothered by it is something for you to figure out. What, if anything, you want to do about it is also for you to decide.

I would still recommend one counseling session. See what they have to say, and go from there.
Posted By: Neak Re: Nothing to Lose - 08/02/11 02:35 PM
I want to encourage you that your case is not hopeless, and that you still have a chance to salvage your M. Every effort that God wants you to make on behalf of your family, He will give you the strength to make.
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 08/02/11 03:27 PM
I feel like the only "progress" we have made at all has been because she wants to protect her career. I know the physical affair has ended at least at this point, but she still is in contact with the OM, and blames me for the problems she is having at work. I believe the only reason she is staying with me is because she doesn't want it to affect her career.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Nothing to Lose - 08/02/11 08:33 PM
Quote:
but she still is in contact with the OM

Nothing will get better as long as this is the case.

I don't think anybody would blame you if you decide to kick her to the curb. You didn't ask to go through this. You don't deserve. It's your right to say "I don't want to do this anymore. Goodbye."

But you do have children to think of, too. I'm with Neak -- talk to Dr. Harley before you make a final decision.
Posted By: Neak Re: Nothing to Lose - 08/04/11 08:44 PM
Even if you haven't done a full Plan A, I would far rather see you go into Plan B early, than to not go at all.

Plan B is a haven of protection for you. It will shield you from her continuing cruelty and abuse. I recommend Plan B to all BS's, whether they want to R their M or not. Even if you just D her, you don't need to suffer the additional pain that WILL COME if she has access to you.

I still have not given up your M as hopeless. The consequences are only just now bearing down, which is GREAT!!! Even if she blames you, remember I always say a WS blames the BS for breathing, too. smile The A is becoming a more and more uncomfortable place for her to be.

That is a good time to have home calling to her as a better option. Even in Plan B, it will still call her.

You sound very tired. Make sure you take care of yourself, first and foremost.
Posted By: markos Re: Nothing to Lose - 08/04/11 09:13 PM
Originally Posted By: Neak
Plan B is a haven of protection for you. It will shield you from her continuing cruelty and abuse. I recommend Plan B to all BS's, whether they want to R their M or not. Even if you just D her, you don't need to suffer the additional pain that WILL COME if she has access to you.


Ditto.
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 08/05/11 12:17 PM
I need a good plan for doing a plan B I guess. I believe it would take a very big miracle at this point to reconcile things.
Posted By: Neak Re: Nothing to Lose - 08/05/11 05:19 PM
It always takes a big miracle, but such things abound here. laugh

There are some really good threads about Plan B. I'll try and point you to some of them, and ask others, too.
Posted By: Neak Re: Nothing to Lose - 08/05/11 05:25 PM
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/u...;gonew=1#UNREAD

Here's one to get you started.
Posted By: Neak Re: Nothing to Lose - 08/10/11 05:58 PM
How's it going, Bugs? Any questions about preparing for Plan B?
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 08/13/11 01:01 AM
I haven't started preparing yet. Just been dealing with everything involved with my wife returning from her deployment. We have had several talks and neither one of us feel our relationship is salvageable. I'm way past the point of having it hurt and actually am happier now then when I was trying to save the marriage. I think the only real question is what I'm going to do and where I'm going to go when we finally part ways. Hopefully the transition will be smooth - but that remains to be seen. The two final sticking points for me were that she refused to break contact with OM, and neither one of us feel like we can totally trust each other. I don't feel we can have a relationship without trust and that everything else is predicated on that one emotional need. I will survive - and I will once again have a happy life. Thanks to everyone for all their help and support! I will still be around as I work on my transition phase. Again, thank you.
Posted By: markos Re: Nothing to Lose - 08/13/11 01:37 AM
I don't understand why she doesn't feel she can trust you, Bugs?
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 08/13/11 02:06 AM
She feels I could have cost her her career by exposing her A. She said she was taking care of the situation when the whole thing blew up on her and now is doing damage control (I didn't tell her employer, but someone I was talking with did). Then she said she was almost over that when I told her that I had told our families about her A....she wonders who I will tell next? Since she has been back she has been desperately trying to preserve the "friendship" of the OM who is backing off and hardly talking to her anymore. If she spent a fraction of the time on our marriage that she did worrying about OM, and her career, we would have a happy marriage.
I am past the stage of anything she does without me causing me any pain. Right now I just want to move on. Armed with the book his needs/her needs - I feel like I actually know what I need to do to build a relationship the right way. I only wish I would have had that when I met my wife - I think the outcome would have been a lot different. I've made a lot of mistakes along the way, hopefully I have learned what I need from each wrong turn I encountered.
Posted By: EverAfter2010 Re: Nothing to Lose - 08/13/11 02:14 AM
I am so sorry she is blaming YOU for HER CRAZY actions. Her immoral actions.

Do not take that blame. YOU did nothing wrong Bugs. Nothing. If you choose to part ways, however, DO NOT GO EASY on the wayward for if you give them one inch, they will take a mile from you.

Make sure that YOU are in no way affected negatively in any legal dealings including monies and assets ok?

She's a fogged out wayward wife with her head up her butt. You are in the drivers' seat and YOU decide what happend. NOT her. Get that?

YOU take charge of anything that happens. She played, now if she wants out, she must pay.

It is just wild what these people will do and what they will throw away for an addiction isn't it?
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 08/13/11 02:41 AM
I'm not really worried about that. I'm in better financial position than when I met her. She is not like that - and I'm sure most will not understand that. We don't hate each other, and she is not still having an A with the OM, but won't break contact, and I'm not going to go around wondering if and when things might start up again. There are other things from before including that I did not do a good job of meeting her EN, but she doesn't know whether she wants to work to save our marriage, and I have nothing left in order to fight alone to hold it together. That's all, we agree to go in separate ways - I think we will both be happier than we are now.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Nothing to Lose - 08/13/11 02:41 PM
Originally Posted By: Bugs_Bunny
She feels I could have cost her her career by exposing her A. She said she was taking care of the situation when the whole thing blew up on her and now is doing damage control (I didn't tell her employer, but someone I was talking with did). Then she said she was almost over that when I told her that I had told our families about her A....she wonders who I will tell next? Since she has been back she has been desperately trying to preserve the "friendship" of the OM who is backing off and hardly talking to her anymore. If she spent a fraction of the time on our marriage that she did worrying about OM, and her career, we would have a happy marriage.
I am past the stage of anything she does without me causing me any pain. Right now I just want to move on. Armed with the book his needs/her needs - I feel like I actually know what I need to do to build a relationship the right way. I only wish I would have had that when I met my wife - I think the outcome would have been a lot different. I've made a lot of mistakes along the way, hopefully I have learned what I need from each wrong turn I encountered.



This affair would be dead and done if you had done a complete exposure. When affair partners work together the employer must be exposed. This has not been done. This must still be done. WW is still trying to keep the affair alive by keeping you to afraid to expose any further.
Posted By: markos Re: Nothing to Lose - 08/13/11 04:09 PM
Originally Posted By: Bugs_Bunny
She feels I could have cost her her career by exposing her A.


No way! She is blaming you for something you didn't even DO? That is seriously whacked.

She is sick, Bugs, and she is blaming you for the consequences of her actions.

She was given a sacred trust and she violated it. She needed to be removed from that trust, not permitted to continue in it. I am glad that those who were trusting her have found out that she cannot be trusted. I am sorry that that has severe consequences in her life, but I don't think it will help anything for you to be blamed for it.
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 08/15/11 08:13 PM
First - I don't hate my wife, and will not do anything that will destroy her career. So, to do what many of you are saying is not an option for me because it would ruin her career and make it hard for her to find other work. What she has done is wrong, and I'm not excusing it - but I will not intentionally do anything that would absolutely destroy anyone else. I know that I have not followed the "blueprint" for dealing with all this stuff, so maybe I deserve the fact that our relationship for all intents and purposes is over, and neither of us feel it is salvageable.
She has had consequences because of her poor decisions, and yes - she has tried to blame me for things but I just calmly tell her that if she had not had the A, I would have had nothing to "leak" out.
I'm ready to be loved by someone - and I'm past the point of believing that she will step up to the plate. I'm not going to stay in a dead relationship just for my kids, although I gave every effort I had to make things work. She won't break contact with the OM, and spends all her time trying to salvage the friendship with him, (that is falling apart). If she would spend even a fraction of time trying to save our marriage as she does trying to save that "friendship" the outcome would be a lot different.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Nothing to Lose - 08/15/11 09:05 PM
Originally Posted By: Bugs_Bunny


I know that I have not followed the "blueprint" for dealing with all this stuff, so maybe I deserve the fact that our relationship for all intents and purposes is over, and neither of us feel it is salvageable.


No one deserves to have their beloved spouse off screwing someone else.

No plan for recovery = no recovery = no big surprise.

That's your choice.

Best of luck to you.
I hope you've learned some things about yourself .... perhaps about your reluctance to do some of the more difficult tasks involved in marriage building.


In any case .... Be well.
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 08/19/11 01:20 PM
Having a really rough day today. Want to go back to the days where life was simple....and happy!
Posted By: Neak Re: Nothing to Lose - 08/21/11 04:56 AM
Sorry you're having a bad day.

IMO, from what I've seen, the days where things were truly simple and happy must have been a long time ago. You've been under attack for a very long time, and it's not a surprise that you're worn out.

Without allowing her to stick any blame to you for the A, take an honest stock of what you could have done differently. Not in a navel-gazing way, beating yourself up to no point, but in an honest, learning, acknowledging way.

And if you decide to even think about R when she approaches you about it, you at least know what needs to be done.
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 08/22/11 06:26 AM
I am passed the point of wanting R. I cannot and will not even consider it as long as she has any contact with OM, and I know that she still e-mails him. Our relationship is so bad now that WW got mad when I was talking with an old classmate from college (we were talking about one of my former roommates who died in a car accident New Years Eve).
I think at this point I would be more depressed if we decided to try and work things out. It is not the ideal, but separation/divorce never is.
I'm to the point now where I don't care if she talks to OM or anyone else for that matter. She can live her life the way she wants, and I will do the same. We still will have to negotiate what that looks like, but hopefully that will be peacefull!
Posted By: Neak Re: Nothing to Lose - 08/22/11 10:58 PM
It will be peaceful as long as you're in NC. smile Just my opinion, but anything with an active wayward tends not to be peaceful.
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 09/01/11 09:03 AM
I'm still alive for any of you who might be wondering. I have been trying to work things out, but feel a little guilty because I'm not sure I want things to work out? At this point I want my life to be happy, and the reason for not wanting things to work out is because I'm not sure that I would be happy in an environment that I have to share with WW. I'm trying to be positive, but often find myself wishing for something else.
Posted By: markos Re: Nothing to Lose - 09/01/11 12:37 PM
Bugs, I would agree that if your wife does not change, you will not be happy. God does allow divorce for cases of adultery, and that includes yours. And I think many of us understand the reason for that: adultery changes a person into someone they were not, not the same person you married.

Living in that perpetually would be hell on earth. Who wants to live with someone who has given Satan such free reign in their life?

But God does redeem and change people, and there are plenty of people on this site who are testimony to the fact that even those caught up in the sin of adultery can completely change, and Dr. Harley has worked with hundreds more. He knows under what circumstances the addiction to infidelity breaks and the marriage can recover, and under what circumstances it does not.

You know, originally Dr. Harley didn't think that anyone who had been cheated on would even want to recover their marriage. He didn't think it was possible. But he had people coming to him, both betrayed and wayward, saying that they wanted to keep their marriage, they wanted to recover, and he tried his approach with them and found that it worked. It could create a marriage better than ever before.

If your wife can come on board with the plan to recover your marriage, your marriage can be better than ever before, and she and you and your kids will be better off than in any other alternative, including divorce. That really says something. Your kids will do much better in life if their parents stay together AND recover their marriage, far better than they could ever do even if you remarried and had a wonderful marriage! (Take it from me. I'm a child of an unrepentant wayward mother. Dad remarried, and it's nice, but it'll never be the same.)

If your wife doesn't come on board, though, it'll be hell on earth.

For your part, you've got to decide if it would be worth it to try for that, and if so, then you've got to find out what you can do to get the best shot at getting your wife on board with that plan and DO IT, without fail. You can't afford to mess around with this and give her a chance to wound you and your children emotionally any further than you already are. Your marriage, if you want to keep it, is more important than every thing else. EVERY THING ELSE. God may be planning to work a miracle through you if you stand up willing to work and ready to put everything else on the altar.

My advice to you is to read through this three-page article and settle for nothing less:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html

I also advise you to watch this video, if you haven't already:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi1001_infidelity0.html

And finally, give Dr. Harley a call. He can present his plan better than anyone else on this site and give you an idea what it will take to get through it. And he and his wife Joyce love to help people recover their marriages. I've seen them go the extra mile again and again.
Posted By: Neak Re: Nothing to Lose - 09/11/11 04:31 AM
Wow, Markos, I can hardly think of anything to add, and that is really saying something.

About the only thing left is just my own personal experience, that R will not happen with a half-done plan. Neglect the details to the peril of your marriage, as there's only so many false recoveries a tired BS can take.

Has WW agreed to NC then? Good to hear an update.
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 12/22/11 08:23 PM
Ok....I have not been intentially avoiding this site....just have had very spotty internet access which makes it difficult to sift through pages and find what I am looking for.
I'm working towards getting all plan B things in place, (I know, I should have had it all planned out ahead of time - but a lot of recent travel kept me busy and cut off from internet).
My WW and I are currently living seperately and it is the happiest I have been for a long time, (until she tries to call me for something). Once I have everything in place (a good plan B letter), I think even those might go away.
I honestly don't want a permanent split, but unless God works on her and makes a change in her life, I cannot live with the person she has become.
I know some will tell me I'm doing everything all wrong, but at least I'm at peace right now. Merry Christmas to all!!!
Posted By: markos Re: Nothing to Lose - 12/23/11 04:46 AM
Merry Christmas, Bugs. God's blessings and peace to you and your children.
Posted By: Neak Re: Nothing to Lose - 12/24/11 02:17 AM
Here is some helpful Plan B info. Merry Christmas!

Preparing for Plan B:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2482787#Post2482787

Sample letters: (adapt as needed)
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/u...;gonew=1#UNREAD

Intermediary Training:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/u...rue#Post2530157

Plan B is one of the nicest gifts you can give yourself.
Posted By: Biker Re: Nothing to Lose - 12/24/11 03:08 AM
Thank you for the links - no promises on the merry part of Christmas.

I guess my goal is to make it through holidays without attending a bunch of pity parties!!!

Thanks again for all the support!
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Nothing to Lose - 12/24/11 03:48 AM
Quote:
I know some will tell me I'm doing everything all wrong, but at least I'm at peace right now. Merry Christmas to all!!!
Well, I'll just say you've been very...consistent in your approach to your WW's affair.

Merry Christmas, Bugs.
© Marriage BuildersĀ® Forums