Hello, MB.

I want to develop new (good) habits to show DH that I am committed to him. I am looking for a few other people who have developed/or are developing good habits to (possibly) help keep me on track. I know the responsibility is mine...but I am trying to keep good company.

In the past couple of years, it seems I have been on a LB-ing mission. I don't know if I was restless or bored...but a lot of the time, I tried to push DH away. In response to my poor behavior, DH reacted by doing...Plan A. (He does not believe in MB or taking advice from people so he will avoid reading any of these books, visiting this website, etc.) Last night, we were having another of those negative talks that I keep starting and DH said, "Why don't you just come out and say it. If it wasn't for the kids, you wouldn't be here. And it shows." He, also said, "Just imagine what I go through everyday."

He should not have to feel that way.

A little history : I was here some time ago in a fogged out state. DH and I have been together over 13 years and we have 2 lovely young children. I have read a lot of the website, HNHN. I did get DH to go through the EN Questionnaire for 5 minutes. I know all of his ENs and he says that I am meeting them...and that we have the "perfect marriage". He has no problems with me and I have all the problems (he says).

- Does anyone know when Dr. Harley would recommend individual counseling versus marriage counseling?
- Does it make sense to pursue resolving individual problems (first)? (i.e. How can you help your partnership if you can't even help yourself?)

I believe that-- now that we are well-settled down into the marriage-- I feel uncomfortable being SO "settled". There's not enough excitement or energy to it...just the day-to-day of being married and parents and keeping up a home.

- Does anyone know if...Dr. Harley ever advises a person that she should have never gotten married in the first place?
- Does Dr. Harley believe that some people are simply not "marriage material"?

My goal: I am hoping that I can fix my behavior, my mindset, and pour the right kind of energy into this marriage...stop LB-ing...I don't think anyone should have to feel the way my DH describes feeling. But I have to, also, not feel bored. I have to take the first steps. I have to prove to him that I can be much better...and I am sure he would get on board. I think he'd even suffer through some of the relationship books (or "woman stuff") if my behavior transforms. Thanks for any suggestions.

You say you were here before 'fogged out'. Did you have an affair? Do you have an old user name where we could see your story?

I just posted on my thread about new energy to the marriage: PLAY TOGETHER. HHH also posted there with a link to an article about facing challenges together, as that is what my H and I have been doing, working as a team to learn and grow in a very fun playtime recreational activity. Ours happens to be finally pulling the trigger on buying a boat; we have a TON to learn and it has been awesome.

Fast track for you, imo, would be to find a recreational activity that puts you and your husband on a team working together toward a common goal. Find one you both enjoy a lot, but that neither of you is better at than the other. Something new, perhaps. There's a quick Recreational Companionship Inventory here listed under the Questionnaires tab. Ya'll fill it out, or if your H just won't do that, get him into a conversation about stuff he's always wanted to try but hasn't; if something piques your interest, make it happen. Skydiving, kayaking, swing dancing, deep sea fishing, engine building, whatever 'lifts your skirts and curls your toes'.

You can choose to stop LBing, so in immediate order, just choose that. But you can alleviate your boredom by involving your H in adventures that you agree to go on.

What you have described here is someone who has fallen out of love. You have fallen out of love with your husband because you don't do the things necessary to maintain romantic love. In order to fall in love, a couple needs to spend 20+ hours per week meeting the top 4 INTIMATE emotonal needs of affection, conversation, rec companionship and sexual fulfillment. Without lovebusters, of course.

If you want to transform your marriage, that is where I would start. If you do this, you will start noticing a dramatic difference in about 6-8 weeks. It does not take long. [follow the program in Fall in Love, Stay in Love]

If you do consider counseling, I would go for marriage counseling with the Harleys. The issue is your marriage and that is what needs to be addressed. You should know the Harleys do not counsel couples in crisis together anyway. They would split your hour on the phone. Others here have gone through the Marriage Builders course, which is really your fastest horse, because you get an assigned marriage coach that guides your lessons on a weekly basis and you have daily access to Dr Harley.

Thank you for your responses.

Yesterday, I came directly home after work and went right to work trying to earn some points in the bank. Laundry done. House clean. Music playing. Dinner ready (with salad and dessert). [I NEVER make dessert.] And a nice outfit DH would like. [It was like the Man's Fantasy in the chapter on Domestic Support in HNHN.] It worked! DH was VERY pleased and complimentary. (Now, of course, I can't keep that up every single day...but I am not opposed to making the "Man's Fantasy" deposit in the love bank a couple times a week.)

(BTW: I was WAY too busy to be "bored".)

CWMI and ML, so it seems that I should focus on recreational companionship and UA. I will check out the Recreational Companionship Tab and try to select something we can spend ample time doing. Actually, when we have done recreational activities together (which is rarely), we have a fantastic time. This would cover the UA...which we definitely need. Of the top 4 ENs you listed, ML, the one we spend the least time investing in is the RC.


Yes, I felt the classic ILYBNILWY; I did not say that to DH (just felt it). I doubted whether I should have married, I acted out in different ways...and, yes, CWMI, I failed to keep the necessary boundaries with someone. Now, thankfully, it went no further than an infatuation on my part. But, I wrongfully and continuously fed that fantasy in my mind. I am sorry for the time and energy I invested in that. I am choosing to put that behind me; I don't even want to think about it (since "thinking about it" is what started the trouble to begin with).


I am a little nervous about the concept of trying to fall back in love with DH. I didn't have to try when I fell in love with him the first time. But maybe it can work. Yesterday was great. I am going aim for the 6 - 8 week plan to transform my marriage. I am excited about it.


Thank you for the direction. I will check out the RC Questionnaire.

Hearfelt1,

Yes, I felt the classic ILYBNILWY; ..., I failed to keep the necessary boundaries with someone. Now, thankfully, it went no further than an infatuation on my part.

It sounds like you were emotionally attached to this person, it is no wonder you have difficulties feeling anything for your H. Do you still work or have contact with that person.

I am choosing to put that behind me; I don't even want to think about it

Again, if you are still in contact with that person it might be tough.

God Bless
Gamma

Well yes, actually you did. NO ONE could fall in love if they spent 15 minutes together and never met each other emotional needs. You just stopped doing the things that created romantic love and you...........fell out of love! If you are a typical spouse you are spending nowhere enough time together to fall in love. Many married couples might spend 15 minutes together meeting each other emotional needs. If even that. And then wonder why they fall out of love.


I figured there was a man in the woodpile. Who is the man? What happened? Did you have an affair? Do you still see him? Are you chasing this dude?

And have you been honest with your H about it? Your feelings for this man are the REASON WHY you have fallen out of love with your husband. This OM has a great deal to do with the feelings you have about your husband.

Have you told your husband about your inappropriate relationship with another man?

This WAS a MAJOR contributor to the current state of your marriage
you failed to maintain the safety of your marriage, and it us your husband who has paid the price for your indescretionindescretion

I did not have an affair though I was on the brink of an affair similar to N.S. in the Q&A Column posting: Escaping the Jaws of Infidelity. The infatuation had gone on for over 2 years (at this point). I have not talked to this man about any feelings that I have for him. He has a woman and is trying to make his relationship work. He is a friend of our family; I would see him when he came to our home.




I have told my husband about my feelings for him. My husband is neither interested nor concerned.

When this infatuation began, the man and I were just "playing" around. We would challenge each other, debate, conversate, enjoy each other's company (all in DH's presence) so it just seemed like harmless fun and completely acceptable. He would be the first to comment on my FB pictures so I felt I could send him a message. He'd respond. We wrote emails on different topics. A lot of little flirtations. ...until it wasn't "harmless" anymore. I know the exact date that something changed for me. That's the gist of the story.

I became so concerned about the things I was feeling and thinking that I started looking for help. I bought a lot of books; I found this site. I read up on the MB principles. It all makes sense to me. I never even heard of EA or acknowledged ENs before I started this research. I wanted to be "over" this infatuation immediately: I needed a quick fix. It wasn't so easy.

Something about the idea of trying to fall in love with DH makes me nervous, too. It's just that: if I fail (to fall in love again), that means my entire life is going to change and the lives of my children.

But DH and I had UA time last night (as well) and I feel that I am on the right path. I noticed something last night, though: DH behavior is going to remain the same. DH already says that I meet his needs, that he is in love with me, and that I am the one with the "problems". I am going to have to fall in love all over again even though there is obviously something about his current behavior that is not meeting some of my needs.

At this point, I was going to focus on recreational companionship. I should focus on one thing at a time, right?

DH and I did not have time to go through the recreational questionnaire yesterday. (We went on a date.) I am going to start making some suggestions to him today about activities that we can begin to try out together. What do you think?

heartfelt, your H needs to read your thread so he understands how dangerous this man is to your marriage. If he doesn't know that he has just escaped the jaws of infidelity, that needs to change. And you both need to quietly step away from the OM and cut him out of your life. Have you removed him your facebook? Removed him in every way from your lives? Because if you don't, your efforts with your husband won't help much because of the contrast effect. Radical honesty with your husband has to be the first step, though.


Thats a curious statement. I don't understand why you say your life and the life of your children is going to change if you can't though. Why? Do you already have a plan in place to leave your husband for this OM? Yes you will fall in love again if you this program correctly, but you are going to have to be honest with your husband and remove this OM.

I can confidently say that DH was fully aware of my feelings for OM. I have completed this exposure to DH: the radical honesty.
This confession occurred quite some time ago. We do not speak of this anymore.

The LB-ing that I have been doing amounts to me: constantly complaining about how dissatified I am, how I just want to run off, being irritable (seemingly out of nowhere), etc. So while we don't speak of my "infatuation" anymore directly, I am aware that some of my LB-ing behavior may be attributed to those feelings.


I shut down my FB, we do not communicate via email anymore, and we hardly ever cross paths. I believe that we are on the road to removing him from my life (and vice versa). (I believe that) just as much as I need him out of my life for my relationship, he needs me out of his life for his new relationship. But he is DH's friend. DH has refused to allow my "feelings" to interfere with his friendship.

I understand the concept of NC for life. A year ago, I wanted to do NC for life and my chest hurt (thinking about it). Now I believe I could manage it fine if DH would just let go of the friendship. And I really genuinely "get it"...how vitally important it is. I have felt "over" (or nearly over) this infatuation so many times, then we would all hang out, have a fantastic time together, and I'd be a complete mess by the next day. I'd have to climb that hill all over again. I don't want to keep going through this process.

But I have decided not to approach DH directly to bring about this result (since DH has declined). I hope that if DH and I begin doing more activities together, spending UA time...then, naturally, he will have less time for the friend.

I have no plan in place for leaving DH or breaking up the family. But I do realize that things have to change. I cannot constantly live under that sort of stress nor can the family.

The LB-ing that I have been doing amounts to me: constantly complaining about how dis satisfied I am, how I just want to run off, being irritable (seemingly out of nowhere),

As someone who is going through something similar, complaining of itself is not a love buster. AS Dr Harley states:

If you want to meet each other's emotional needs, and you want to overcome Love Busters, one essential ingredient is an honest expression of your emotional reactions to each other. What makes a marriage successful is your willingness and ability to accommodate each other's feelings. And without the facts about those feelings, an otherwise happy couple can become very unhappy as the events of life change.

The conditions that existed at the time of your marriage were partly responsible for the love you had for each other. Those conditions made it easy for you to meet each other's emotional needs, and tended to ward off Love Busters. They may have made you feel perfect for each other, because you did not have to do much to make each other happy.

But if you are like most couples, those conditions changed right after your marriage and have continued to change right up to the present. If you have not been able to adjust to those changes, you are probably very disillusioned about your compatibility. What had seemed effortless at first may seem impossible for you now.

But adjustment in marriage is not impossible. In fact, it may be quite a bit easier than you think. Because of the way your brain is put together, you have the ability to make remarkable adjustments to each other throughout life, as your environment changes. But in order to be successful, you must do four things:

First, you must realize that these changes will take place, whether you want them to or not. Many of the circumstances surrounding you cannot be controlled and will be changing constantly.

Second, you must stick to your goal of meeting each other's most important emotional needs, and avoiding Love Busters regardless of the change in conditions. A change can be very distracting, and can cause both of you to lose sight of your primary objectives in life. Don't let these changes cause you to lose sight of each other.

Third, you must be totally committed to making all of your decisions jointly and enthusiastically. Changes in circumstances require new decisions, and each must be made with each other's feelings in mind. Otherwise, the changes will leave one of you in the dust. Don't go on in life unless you are both on board.

And finally, in order to make the best decisions, you must be radically honest with each other about your emotional reactions to the changes in your lives. The best decisions take the emotional reactions of both of you into account simultaneously, but without an honest expression of those reactions, you will be missing the target.

While some couples may fail to make a successful adjustment after feelings are honestly explained, failure is almost guaranteed when the need for adjustment is never communicated. Always take each other's complains seriously. As I mentioned earlier, your emotional reactions are a gauge of whether you are making a good adjustment to each other. If you both feel good, you need no adjustment. If one or both of you feel bad, a change is indicated.

But let me also explain what honesty is not. It is not selfish demands or disrespectful judgments or angry outbursts.

AS long as you are not making the complaints SD, DJ or AO and informing your DH of your needs you are actually the one doing the positive thing in your marriage and don't need to think something is wrong with you.

My DH will not change, meet my needs or even take what I say as serious. He also says that he is 100 percent happy with me, while I am miserable. I have made it a point to only complain one time a week to let him know it isn't better. I am also spending time UA, meeting EN's and trying for RC as well in the mean time. I am however, getting ready to plan A and then Plan B him.

He does eventually need to understand that any contact you had with the OM needs to be severed forever. Since you can't get him on board, YOU need to make better boundaries around yourself to make sure it doesn't happen again with anyone else.

Sunshine, Thank you!! for your response. Oh, and welcome to MB. (I see that you are a new member yourself.) It would be nice to have someone to kinda relate to as we walk along this path to make our marriages stronger. (I am sure if we get something wrong, the vets will reroute us.) ;P I have just looked at your first post. We are the same age. And our spouses seem to have similiar behavior.



DH does not take my complaints seriously; he tries his best to avoid hearing them (since he thinks our marriage is perfect). DH didn't even take my feelings for OM seriously...proceeding to invite him over our home and mention his name to me at a minimum of every other day.




Perhaps DH does not want to take what you are saying "seriously" but maybe he will change (in spite of himself). I am holding out hope for both of our DHs.

My DH does not want to listen to what I am saying...but he responds very enthusiastically whenever I come up with ideas for things we should do. Or if I ask him for something [tangible], he will try to provide it. I am hoping that if I keep coming up with these ideas for RC and UA, he will get caught up in participating with me, he will spend less time on OM, and he will be pleased that I am not being "miserable". Once I have consistently put in some effort, he mght be more receptive to listening to what I have to say. Maybe he will "change" to keep it going (I'm hoping).

DH wants me to be happy. He is never more comfortable than when I am smiling, joking, and playing with him. If he sees that I can behave in a "happy" way, I'm sure he wouldn't want me to have a relapse of misery. Maybe that could help your DH, too??? I don't know.

But the last few days have been great. I feel happier with the choices I am making and that I am genuinely trying.

Heartfelt, I would stay on your husband and not let up until he agrees to cut this man out of your lives. Tell him that your infatuation with this man has greatly impacted the feelings you have for him. In addition, I would ask him to participate in this program with you. Just tell him straight out you are falling out of love with him.

Keep the issue of this man on the front burner. By not mentioning it he probably thinks it has blown over. And I would not allow the OM in your home or your presence.

ML,
Okay, I will stay on top of him.

But I am going to need a specific approach. I have had several conversations with DH about this. But OM was his buddy first before my infatuation so DH feels that it is wrong of me to interfere. The conversation only causes DH to have AO rather than listening to what I am saying. When I ask DH not to be his friend, DH says, "You're just mad because he doesn't love you."

I am trying to strengthen our marriage with the RC and UA. I don't want to keep arguing with him. But I will get on it (the subject of OM) first if that's what you all think is the first priority.

In any event, OM will not be around me anytime in the near future (that I am aware of)...as our lives are simply moving in different directions.

How did you explain the issue to him?

Mel,
It was a long time ago but (something like) I had "feelings for" his friend. I threw in the word infatuation to be clear. He translated that into basically I want to **[SF]** his friend. I told him that OM and I email each other and asked if he wanted to read the emails. He declined.

I have said many times, "I don't think you should be friends." DH would then make some snide comment about his friend's feelings (or lack thereof) for me.

Since then if his friend was on his way to our home and I changed outfits before OM was to arrive, DH would say: "You just want to look your best for (him)."

What I did NOT say was: Yes, you are correct. I thought many times about how I might **[SF]** your friend. Whether he "loves" me or not is not the issue. I realize that I don't "love" him, either, for that matter. But I thought I did. Yes, I thought I loved your friend. You should stop being friends with this person because everytime I see him and everytime I hear his name, I remember those feelings I had. Have. My boundaries have been compromised and I want to rebuild them. I need to rebuild them for us and for our family.

<-- Don't make me say it. Can you come up with something...nicer?

I would say this, but in a more forthright manner. You do alot of qualifying and beating around the bush. Your language is confusing and puts your feelings in the past. Your feelings are not in the past when you are triggered. I think you have to be radically honest because what you did say has left your H not understanding the issue. HE DOESN'T UNDERSTAND, therefore he has no understanding of how dangerous this is to him. So you have be more forthright.


"Yes, you are correct. I thought many times about how I might **[SF]** your friend. Whether he "loves" me or not is not the issue, the issue is my infatuation with him. I realize that I don't "love" him, either, for that matter. But I thought I did. Yes, I thought I loved your friend. You should stop being friends with this person because Everytime I see him and everytime I hear his name, my feelings of love and infatuation are triggered. I remember those feelings I had. This directly affects the way I feel about you, because my emotions are comparing you to an infatuation. I want to be in love with you and this is hurting the love I feel for you.

ok, I re-read this and see that this was the version you did not use. If that is your forthright version, I can see why he doesn't get it. I would not GET your forthright version.

Sorry for the confusion, Mel. My "forthright" version was a tad confusing, teetering between past and present tense because... at this very moment, I am confused about that whole thing myself.

Today and yesterday I was trying to pull up (in my mind) what it was about OM that was so fascinating to me in the first place. I'm sure it was the prospect of energy/excitement (at the time). But I don't feel it at all right now.

Of course, there were times in the past year when it went away and came back due to very minimal contact. That's what I don't want to happen. I want to put it behind me once and for all.

I want to focus on the 6-8 week plan of rebuilding this romantic marriage. But I understand I have to take care of first things first.

Thanks, Mel.

Right. And that is understandable because you haven't been around him. But do you see how difficult it is to elicit those feelings when you don't see him? That is what your H needs to understand. And don't fuss with WHAT you found fascinating, that does confuse the issue.


Right.


If you tell him the way I outlined it above, I think he will GET IT. I am the type of person who needs very forthright language to get it and I suspect he may be too.

If you can help him understand and get him to agree to eliminate the OM from your lives, you will be successful at restoring the romantic love in your marriage. But as long as the OM makes these occasional appearances, you will be pulled back into that fantasy. And when that happens, your H pales in comparison. But he WON'T if you get the OM out of your lives and restore the romantic love. Hope that makes sense!

I am very excited to say that DH and I had a LONG thorough conversation about *everything* last night.
We spent majority of the coversation on the infatuation with OM. We, also, talked about our marriage in general and all of my behaviors (which would constitute LB-ing).

I ought to say at the outset that he says that he STILL feels the same about how he should handle the situation with OM. I think, however, after our talk that he will (have no choice but to) look at OM differently...and DH will naturally withdraw from OM.

So I did not say the exact paragraph as outlined above BUT I covered all the bases. We started out talking about our marriage. I asked him if he noticed when things "changed" with me: when things changed in our marriage.

He did not hesitate; he knew EXACTLY when. I was truly surprised by that. His opinion on my change of behavior is that I was just beginning to "live a little". He thinks that I give myself too many restrictions; I have always been too constrained since childhood...and I deserve to explore. He was not (and will not) interfere. He sees what I am doing but he thinks I need to get it out and figure out what exactly it is I want out of life rather than what I am supposed to want (or what "other people" think I should want).

He says he wants me to be happy. In order for me to be happy, I MUST figure out for myself what I want...and he has to allow me the space to do that.
This is where we got to OM. I told him that he was aware of the infatuation and that I want OM: "What if I want [OM]?" I told DH that what he was telling me was that I should just follow whatever thoughts or feelings I was having including being with OM. He said, "Wrong." He is not telling me to act impulsively; he is telling me to really THINK about what I want and then act. He says, "I am the one who really loves you. I take care of you." Not OM.

DH is 100% certain that I will not cheat on him. He picked me because of who I am; he knows my character...and he knows I will not cheat. When he was choosing a woman to be his wife, he was choosing a woman (of virtue) and he is confident in his choice. He holds me in the highest esteem and he knows that I will make the right choices.

(I really love him for saying and believing that...but I was annoyed that he trust me more than I trust myself.)

I told him that I can guarantee him that if I continue down the path I was on, I will cheat on him. I guarantee it. He disagreed. Ok.
I said, "If you know I like [name], you don't bring him in our home, in my bedroom, put him in my bed, and say 'Good luck'. There is a difference between trust and stupidity...a difference between trust and burying your head in the sand." He said, "Wrong." He is not burying his head in the sand because he trusts my ability to make the right choice. He only gives me one rule (just one): not to **[SF]** someone else. He believes I will not do it. And he is never going to believe otherwise until I do it. I should talk to him after I do it.

At one point he said, "I don't know. Maybe this guy really opened your eyes or something..." He said if it was any other man, he'd have a problem with both me and OM. He said that "Luckily, I am not like that. If my friend slept with you, I wouldn't even be mad at him. I'd be mad at you." He said he has expectations of me that he does not have of his friends. He would be hurt and disappointed (if I failed). He has no expectations of his friends. He said the only way he would be mad at his friend is if the friend slept with his wife and didn't tell him. He expects his friend to say, "Hey man, I slept with your wife. Your wife is sh**." I said then what he is telling me is that he is choosing his friendship over his marital contract. He'd be mad at me but still be friends with the OM. He went on to say that he knows that friends will always choose themselves over you. I'd be the only one not meeting his expectations.

He said that OM was his friend before I decided to like him...and OM is still his friend. Should he lose all his friends...or only hang around fat, ugly, disgusting, unattractive people so his wife will not like them? I said that "Okay, so I [messed] up. I did not have up my guard up around OM, he was your friend and I wrongfully thought I didn't need to have my guard up. I had weak boundaries with him and I like him. So just this one friend...you have to protect your marriage against this one friend..." He said that it is my responsibilty to handle that-- not his. I said it is "our responsibilty" to protect "our marriage"...

The coversation went on and on in this fashion... We talked for a LONG time...

We did NOT argue. No AOs! I was pleased with that...

How do you explain his odd thinking? What is behind that?

He's not from this country [U.S.]?!? LOL

I don't know, Mel.

But I feel strange debating with him, trying to tell him my weaknesses, flaws, etc...and him trying to tell me I have none. Usually, we (people) try to prove our good qualities...not our bad qualities. *shrug*

What would you do at this point? Just focus on the RC?

Hi Heartfelt!
Thanks for the hello on my thread!

I had to take a break but oh my goodness!
Are you ok? Seriously, I would be very very hurt by this conversation.

He has No expectations on his friends and wouldn't feel betrayed by them if they slept with you!!!! So he will keep friends even if they are trying to get you, he doesn't care, not his problem it is all you? OUCH!!!

And what the heck is all this talk about you need time to go find yourself? That is his answer for why you are unhappy in your marriage!!!!?????
(oh no, it can't really be me at all, I have no part... its all you, go find yourself and then you will really love me!!!)

Then followed by, I married you for who you are? I thought he just said you didn't know who you are, so which is it!

Heartfelt... I think you need to snoop on him. seriously. Just in case. I have been for 3 months without him knowing and it has been a relief and opened my eyes a ton to what is going on in his world.

What he says is talking in circles - I have traveled the world and don't buy that it is because he isn't American-

Something just seems off

Yes, I would keep working on your side of the street. NO Love busting and would REPEAT that you know exactly who you are and what you want.
Try to get some UA time, work on RC and hey, maybe you should call the radio show as well!!!

I am off to get some sleep!

Sunshine,
I am not hurt by this conversation; I think I am numb to this sort of conversation. I have been having these sorts of conversations for many years where: I tell him how I feel or what I'm going to do...then he turns around to tell me how I actually feel and what I am really going to do. LOL

As for snooping, in the beginning I was not very trusting. I was like Nancy Drew. But I came up empty-handed. (I did not install any keylogger or VARs <-- terms I have learned by reading the SAA msg. board.) He comes directly home after work, is available by phone at all times, responds to my emails instantly. At one point, he started playing sports 2-3 nights a week but that's over for now. I gave up snooping and worrying since I couldn't find anything.

Now I am only worried about my behavior and what I am doing. I am sure that since I couldnt get my DH to "listen" or display the appropriate "emotions", I began to appreciate that (and the excitement) from OM. I want to make sure I re-establish appropriate boundaries and avoid LB-ing.

This week has been pretty good so I am hopeful.

So can you approach your dh from the point of view of asking for him help to be the person you want to be and be faithful completely?

I get the feeling that he would rather just pretend it isn't happening and leave it all on you so his life doesn't have to change and I don't think thats particularly supportive actually.

Hi Rosy,

I did approach him from the point of view of helping me be a better wife and helping me to be faithful. He does not believe anything needs to change. He believes I am justified to feel however I feel about any man as long as I keep it to myself.

I don't think I can carry out MB principles if I cannot get DH on board. I can resolve to maintain better boundaries around the opposite sex...and try to fortify our marriage with RC and UA (before I have to deal with OM again).

heartfelt, do you think your husband is enamored of world views that tend towards moral neutrality, moral relativism and political correctness? I know people who seem to be very impressed with those worldviews and I wonder if your husband would fall into that category.

Would he be ok with it if you had an affair? What if you found someone you love more than him, would he endorse an affair?

Hmm...I do not have enough knowledge about those worldviews to assess whether or not my DH's beliefs fall within them. Having a cursory understanding of them, I would lean towards "yes" for moral relativism. (I'll ask him about it...)

Here is his primary belief: a person's number one goal in life is to be happy. Whatever you feel makes you happy (granted it is not so obviously morally bankrupt) is what you should be doing. If I really thought that I should leave him to be with another man who could make me happier than he could for the rest of my life, he would agree that I should leave him.

Of course, he does not think there is another man who could make me happy...and he expects for me to be a rational enough being to always come to this conclusion when I think things thru.

He doesn't care if I have EA (since he doesn't even accept that as real). He said that I should keep my thoughts and fantasies to myself. That's why we don't think out loud because it is only for us to know (he says).

I'm exhausted now. We didn't have a good weekend. I was going to talk to him about separating...but he decided to participate in a family activity without his usual attempt to avoid it. I considered that he was making an effort so I could do the same.

Yesterday, DH came right home from work, did not greet me at all, ran out the door to play sports. It took 4 hours for the one game. I was in bed when he came home. He stayed up until 2am on his computer, then wanted to come to bed (w/o showering). I said "no". We slept apart.

This morning he says that he will be late getting home because the new sports season begins. I didn't bother to ask questions.

I know he is not cheating (yet). Sure. I believe he is doing what he says he is doing. The point is "he does not HEAR me". "He does not see me." He does not see/hear/understand that I have been asking for the time, for the understanding for the help...trying to be the best I can be.

I just don't want to do this.

I told him about this infatuation...so he would open his eyes, maybe he would help me. But no. He thinks he is perfect. He gives too much to this marriage already. I am spoiled and needy. He said that he didn't know I would require all of this attention so many years later. *laugh*

Well, I don't need to require any attention from him.

When is the right time to separate? Maybe a separation (or Plan B) would give us both the space to (1) get on with life apart or (2) realize what we are missing.

I just have no idea what to do.

Did you read the article When to Call it Quits? [Newsetter section]

I know you said you don't think he is having an affair, but there are so many oddities here that I think you should do some snooping and rule it out.

Yes heartfelt!
I am sorry for the weekend

I agree with Melody Lane and said it before... even if you find nothing, snoop anyways!!!!

I am still trying to decide what I think about the whole, whatever makes you happy stuff.... not sure what to say about it except it all seems a little odd to me.

Good morning, ladies. Sorry for my "outburst" yesterday but I was quite frustrated. DH and I had a brief argument and I just stopped talking to him at all. He wanted to fix everything and never argue again so he kept reaching out to communicate with me about what the problem is.

We had a(nother) talk. I wrote down specifically what issues I think we could work on as a couple...and what issues I could work on personally. I asked him to write specific solutions. He declined to put any solutions in writing...since I would have something to throw in his face (which he cannot handle). He said that the solution is simple: he just won't do any of the things that I have on the list to eliminate the potential for arguments.

He's taking me seriously. We just need a very specific plan to follow to make new habits (to bring more romantic love) in this relationship...if we are going to escape this rut.

Mel, I will search for the article you listed. Thank you.

Thank you both!!

I agree you need a specific plan. Get the workbook Five Steps to Romantic Love along with these 2 books, Lovebusters and His Needs, Her Needs. Follow the lessons outlined in there. That is a plan that really does work. The most important thing you can do for your marriage is follow the policy of undivided attention. [there is a worksheet for that in the workbook] undivided attention

I read the article "When to call it quits?" It is right on point. I want change or there must be drastic action. I have to put myself in a position (financially) where I am able to separate if need be.

I told DH yesterday that I want a "romantic marriage" for the rest of my life and I would not accept anything less. I told him that I am 100% certain that if I can't have a romantic marriage, I don't want a marriage at all. We will be part of the 20%.

I will pick up the Workbook today from Barnes and Noble (if it is available). I have HNHN and we've been through the Lovebusters.

heartfelt_1, I felt the need to copy this from the original thread where I posted it to you.

You don't need an exorcism, you need to change your phone # so DH's friend won't be able to text you again.

MarriageBuilders is not some kind of hocus-pocus. It's real, specific actions. If you want to kill an infatuation that you know is improper & detrimental to your marriage, then you need to take actions that will kill it. No-contact is that action. Not passive no-contact of the "I hope he won't contact me [but secretly hope he might]" variety. Rather, proactive no-contact, as in taking concrete actions to cut off channels of contact.

You either take the actions, or you're just talkin' it, not walkin' it.

P.S. Y'know what, heartfelt_1? I started talking with my OW about music. She was one of the singers along with me on the church music team. I wasn't even infatuated with her when it started. It was just harmless talking about music. Or so thought I.

Foretold is forewarned.

Heartfelt, if you are serious about this you need to follow GloveOil's advice. Change your phone number. Imagine you were an alcoholic and someone kept offering you booze (just one sip, how could it hurt). Obviously it can.

If you need some motivation, then get yourself one of those iPhones or something.

I am mortified...that I am STILL here with this guy. Though I even fear coming over to the SAA forum, I think I am going to have to move my thread.

Gloveoil and Happy, I know.

I am really like this alcoholic. I cannot believe...myself.

DH and I have BOTH been trying this week, focusing on all of the things we have been talking about. The last few days have been great. DH thanked me last night because he sees that I am trying (he says) and I see that he is trying.

The bookstore did not have The Five Steps to Romantic Love workbook so I had to order it. It will be delivered to my house in the next few days.

Trying? Not so fast. Let's go back to this issue re: DH's friend...

Do you think he's a distaction to you in your idle moments?
Do you spend time thinking, "if he says X to me, I'll say Y?"
Do you feel hesitant about mentioning your feelings to your DH?
I could go on with the questions, but I'll stop there. You get my drift.

If the answers to all or any of the above are "yes", then you've got a problem that you can't bury.
Reading the books & trying to communicate better & express your needs & meet his needs is not gonna work, because there'll be this unspoken "what-if" inside your mind, preventing the kind of crystal-clear honesty & completeness of effort that you need to devote to saving & restoring a marriage.

When I was a few weeks into my (at the time) EA, it got to the point where I could see where it was headed. So I resolved to end it. Even went so far as to tell OW it had to end. Took my wife away to a B&B for her birthday weekend out in the country, and we spent some great time together. I thought I'd beaten the infatuation.

But when I got back, OW resumed calling, and I resumed taking her calls. And in another couple of weeks, my resolve was gone. PA. For the upstanding, church-going, family-man. You'd never have guessed until it was too late.

And y'know what? The following month, OW's husband asked her to go away with him on a research trip to New York. He was asking her to spend time with him. He didn't know about her affair with me then, and he must've thought that her previous affair with an ex-BF was "only" an emotional affair. But he knew his marriage was in trouble, and he was making an affort. And his effort in going on that trip went in one ear & out the other. Because his wife was hedging her bets by having me as her secret affair partner. And her effort (if you could call it that) was also compromised by this. And my effort with my wife? I felt at the time that it was sincere; but it was undermined -- I undermined it myself -- through my concealing of my conflicted emotions (i.e., not coming completely clean to my wife & by not cutting OW out of my life completely at that time). I was hedging my bets. And that is an invitation to disaster.

Its good that you & H are communicating more. But you can't be half-way about it. You can't hedge your bets & still save your marriage. You can't cultivate secret infatuations & still save your marriage. You can't expect your H to believe that you're committed, when he can surely sense that something is amiss, even if he can't put a finger on it. And you can't expect that his efforts toward you will appear to you in the best light, if you continue to allow yourself to mentally contrast them with some half-real, half-fantasy guy (husband's friend), with whom reality (the place your husband occupies in your life) can't compete on a level field. You can't try to put some MarriageBuilders principles into action & expect a great result while flagrantly contravening other principles. That's like a cancer patient trying to exercise to get in shape. You can train for months & build up your cardiovascular endurance to a point, but if you don't take care of the softball-sized tumor in your chest cavity, eventually & in the not too distant future, you ain't gonna run well or feel well, or be in good shape, or live long.

"Trying?" You can talk, or you can do. As Yoda said in the movies, "There is no 'try'."

Yes, once in awhile...but it is much less than before. Sometimes I am able to replace it with other thoughts (not all the time).


No. The only one thing I have managed to do was expose the infatuation to my DH. Lucky [alcoholic] me, DH doesn't care. It's his friend and he is determined to keep the friend.

smh My DH just doesn't understand who he is dealing with. He doesn't understand that I could be so weak. Nor does he understand that his friend can look him in the face practically everyday and still interfere with his life.


I was trying to bury it. Yes.
"Burying it" is NOT a MB concept. Right.

It did cross my mind that if I "just stay away from him" (the friend) and focus my energies on adding romantic love to my marriage (falling in love with my DH again), this could all just go away. Besides DH doesn't acknowledge it as an affair...so we could fix our marriage and this could all just go away. And I felt I was doing okay here recently.


Yes. This is what is happening for me. (Well, I have NEVER talked to DH friend about any feelings I have for him...as I have been advised against it.)

But, it seems, I can never get it right as long as the possibilty of his friend being near me/communicating with me is out there.


I love Yoda!

Have you shown your DH the text? Is it at all inappropriate? If so maybe you can make him see that his friend isnt just the innocent object of a crush.

An imo he isnt innocent. A man knows when he is having an efect on a woman. The good eggs back away from a married one.

Indie,

No, I did not show DH the text...which he will undoubtedly write-off as his friend's typical inappropriate behavior.

Oh my...there's no use explaining: I will show him. (...and I will post something tomorrow about how DH blew it off, I'm sure...)

Well, the bottomline is: I know what's going on whether or not DH accepts it, I allowed it to happen, and I must stop it.

I need to be able to know that they are going to remain friends, hear DH talk about him to me every other day, hear his GF talk about him to me, and overcome this thing.

I just did not want to deal with this terrible mess.

I don't think this is workable at all HF...

There is just no way you can continue contact for life after an EA with a man your DH has basically said he will pick keeping his friendship with over your marriage.

Can you expose OM?
If you let the whole world know that he is coming on to you, you have feelings for him and have told him to stay away and he won't-- you need his friends and family and GF to know what he is doing and to help you???

I think exposure from you and a No contact letter from you to OM might be the only way.

So it is inappropriate? How? When was the first time he said something inappropriate to you and did you tell your h?

Have you and this OM ever had a discussion about these feelings you have?

How did you not feel it was relevant to show your h that his so called friend is predatory towards you, his wife?

YOUR job is not to predict his 'blow off' reaction btw but to keep yourself honest and your side of the street clean.




You arent going to be able to do that. You must convince your h of the danger facing your marriage by being RADICALLY honest.

Which I dont think you are being if you keep texts secret.

Okay, I am getting a little confused...and would prefer not to talk about the friend. I was on a different path before Wednesday (before the text) and I want to return to that path.

If anyone could help me with a couple questions so I can move on:

1. This text was very random and out of the ordinary. Do you feel that blocking his number is sufficient?

2. Do you think I should send a NC letter to the friend? (DH has told me not to do so. Do I need to PoJA the NC letter or no?)

3. If DH is not going to stop being friends with him, is it impossible for me to meet the MB principles?

4. The friend has a GF now that I like very much. Should I involve her?


I think when I started back here a couple weeks ago, I was not (very) "foggy"...and I am talking about him (friend) too much now. I want to fous on my DH...NOT relapse. Okay...thank you for your thoughts.

Indie,

Earlier on in one of her posts she did tell her H many times of her feeling for him, the danger she feels she is in by being radically honest.

This was his response:
I told him that I can guarantee him that if I continue down the path I was on, I will cheat on him. I guarantee it. He disagreed. Ok.
I said, "If you know I like [name], you don't bring him in our home, in my bedroom, put him in my bed, and say 'Good luck'. There is a difference between trust and stupidity...a difference between trust and burying your head in the sand." He said, "Wrong." He is not burying his head in the sand because he trusts my ability to make the right choice. He only gives me one rule (just one): not to **[SF]** someone else. He believes I will not do it. And he is never going to believe otherwise until I do it. I should talk to him after I do it.

At one point he said, "I don't know. Maybe this guy really opened your eyes or something..." He said if it was any other man, he'd have a problem with both me and OM. He said that "Luckily, I am not like that. If my friend slept with you, I wouldn't even be mad at him. I'd be mad at you." He said he has expectations of me that he does not have of his friends. He would be hurt and disappointed (if I failed). He has no expectations of his friends. He said the only way he would be mad at his friend is if the friend slept with his wife and didn't tell him. He expects his friend to say, "Hey man, I slept with your wife. Your wife is sh**." I said then what he is telling me is that he is choosing his friendship over his marital contract. He'd be mad at me but still be friends with the OM. He went on to say that he knows that friends will always choose themselves over you. I'd be the only one not meeting his expectations.



HF, the reason people keep bringing up OM is that is really does effect your marriage now. No real steps for recovery have happened and others can chime in. You can't just sweep this under the rug.

Hugs!

He wrote about a time we were all going somewhere together and a song came on the radio. Apparently, I was signing along to it. He said that everytime he hears the song he thinks of me singing some sexually-based lyrics (that I do not recall saying...but who knows?). [I did not write the exact phrase here as it would be edited out.]


no. never.


i never discussed any feelings with his friend and i couldn't blame him for my behavior.

alright, i will try to stop predicting my DH's reaction.



THANKS! That is one of the things I needed to know...if we can recover with them remaining friends.

hi Sunshine!

nice to see you...though not on this forum particularly...i would have liked to not think of this (as you can see).


This is difficult to accept...but I hear you. Alright, so now I am starting from scratch. I had not been recovering because I was trying to ignore the "elephant in the room".


I can tell his GF, yes.
My DH has said several times that I may not send a NC letter. (I assume DH will be embarrassed and angry.)
I had not told his friend to stay away from me. We just stopped writing emails, I closed my FB, and we haven't seen each other in awhile. (<-- ways we typically communicate.)

How are things going for you today, Sunshine? I hope you have a pleasant weekend. Looking forward to hearing you on Monday!

That isnt what I what meant - why would you want your husband to remain friends with someone who is ok with sending vile, disrepectful texts to a married woman? This man is talking to you like you are a 'ho.

He has poor boundaries,

He is no friend to your marriage

He has no respect for you

Your h needs GOOD friends who respect his marriage and his wife.

Have you ever said anything flirty, inappropriate, romantic or sexual to him?

He sounds very predatory, in short hes a scumbag. I think his GF needs to know about the ticking time bomb she has waiting for her.

Which counts as approaching honesty, but it is not radical honesty. RH means not keeping any secrets. Particulary that text, which shocks me to my core.

My h kept texts sent to him like this secret and that deception is more hurtful than picturing him having SF with OW.

Heartfelt you show a willingness to be honest about difficult things.

It is good for you to do this, regardless of your h reaction because radical honesty makes couples understand each other better. It is not surprising he doesnt understand the danger when you gloss over so much. Telling yourself 'oh it wont help anyway' is not productive. If you make yourself more transparent and accountable, your state of mind will improve.

Maybe give your phone to your h for a while until the number can be changed? Or if he is not keen on NC letter, ask if he could he possibly send a text back to OM which says, 'Oh its heartfelt's hubby here. I have her phone today, she lends it to me sometimes. She asked me to check something when I saw your message. Thought to myself thats funny I dont remember her singing that song - are you sure you didnt mean someone else?'

This 'friend' may then get the message that your phone is not a good way to get in touch as your h has free access to it. He will aso be (deservedly) embarrassed in front of his friend as to what a little sneak he is.

If (as you say) your h wants YOU to be accountable and to put a stop to things - you cant really do better than that can you?

I have absolutely no problem with giving DH my phone. He can read any and all of my text messages. I will find a way to direct him to his friend's texts without making a big deal out of it. Actually, DH likes to keep me up-to-date with the latest technology. I'll just ask him some tech question that would require him to look at my text messages. Then, I won't have to say it myself...and he can see for himself... Is that sneaky?

Thanks, Indie.

Yes, I am sure that I said something flirty or inappropriate to his friend. (But I have been flirty in general...as I understood flirting to be harmless and a normal part of socializing...pre-MB.)

I have not said anything romantic.

I have not said anything outright sexual but something that could have been construed that way.

What is the problem with being direct with him? You need to communicate much more effectively with him than you have been.

Be forthright. Say - look at this text, I think it's really inappropriate.

If he agrees and confronts his friend - great.

If not suggest he return a text which wil freak this other a guy out a bit to hear from him on your phone. which will hopefully nip things in the bud.

Though this friend and you havent spoken about feelings, things have been VERY inappropriate nontheless. You and your h need to stand united so this guy gets the message you wont hide things from your h. This requires you and your h TALKING!!!

So whats the problem?

Yeah... if you are trying to attract a mate. That's what flirting is for.

But you've already got a mate. You said "I will" and accepted his ring on your finger. So why hedge your bets?

I can see why you wish to discontinue this line of discussion. It has exposed some inconvenient truths. Inconvenient, that is, if your wish is to continue to be able to hedge your bets, to keep the possibilities open. Maybe you & DH's buddy can get something going on the side someday. No one would have to know. And anyway, it wouldn't be your fault, after all. If your husband were more attentive. If he made himself more available to you. Right? And after all, life is short. Are you supposed to be miserable for the rest of your life? God wouldn't want that, right? And maybe your DH would be fine with it. He probably doesn't care enough to be mad or hurt, right?

You've heard all you need to hear from me, heartfelt_1. There's nothing more I can tell you or do for you.

Heartfelt I want to thank you because in lots of ways what you are going through something I did once.

And I actually thought until very very recently that I too had been radically honest.

Here is something I wrote on my thread. I thought I was being very truthful when I wrote this. But I lied!


I wasnt radically honest in fact. I glossed over a lot, lot more details than you did. I didnt even tell him the guy's identity!! I did just enough to ease some pressure and guilt. Just enough to DEMAND that my h paid more attention to my ENS. I dont think I ever even apologised to him for allowing someone else to meet my needs.

Since I became a BS I am really glad I avoided a EA using honesty. However I wish I had gone further.

Even more, I wish I hadnt set the example that hiding such important details from the person I loved was ok.

I wouldnt wish this on you.

indie,

i thought i had already been forthright with my DH about my feelings for his friend. he was not concerned.

the fact that i told him about the "feelings" (instead of sleeping with his friend) only proves to my DH that I don't have it in me to have an affair (PA). that's what he says.

but i came here for advice not to defend my own way of thinking (which was obviously flawed) SO alright. he is hanging out with friends right now. i will let you know what happens after i point out this inappropriate text...

Good for you.

It is more about knowing you have done everything YOU could so you have nothing to reproach yourself for.

I agree you have told YOUR side of things - but you dont seem to have warned your h about his friends part in things.

With friends like that .....who needs enemies?

Your H's reactions do seem strange, but I think until you have spelled out the extent of the problem, you cant rule out that he simply doesnt understand the danger.

Indie,

Thank you for sharing this-- your story-- with me. And I am sorry for what you have had to endure as a BS.

I will be very direct about the text, make a suggestion for what DH should do about it, and ask him what he intends to do about it.

I HEAR what everyone is saying to me... I always feel awful for coming here, saying hurtful things, asking for advice, and then feeling like I disappoint people (you all) because I seem obstinate, defensive, or unwilling to do what needs to be done.

Your story sounded so familiar to me.

I keep thinking that I have been radically honest with DH...but ALL THIS TIME has passed and i STILL have not blamed the friend for a thing. I still have not quoted a word he said to me to my DH. DH cannot blame him (and reconsider their friendship) if I don't give him the specific "ammunition" (as it were). i will provide specifc examples to DH.

i will be very disappointed if he blows it off again.

Okay, thank you for pushing this issue!!! I will let you know the outcome.

I hope you have an enjoyable weekend.

I spent the entire day yesterday trying to think of what to write to...

... "own" the things posted in my prior thread,

...explain what I have done to implement MB principles in the time that has passed,

...to construct a post that would be not honest but radically honest.

And I came up with nothing. ...not because I don't want to. But when I focus on this issue (the friend) everything just gets confused. I'm trying to forget the whole thing.

I think if we all agree with my husband that this was a nothing...an adolescent infatuation, at best...we can move onto the fundamental MB principles (like focusing on ENs, no LB-ing, the RC and UA). <-- I thought this could work. I mentioned that I was in a "fogged out" state in my first new post. Maybe my thinking the above means I am still foggy.

I want to grow; that's why I am still lurking around here. I just don't know what to do. DH is not going to give up the friend. He is absolutely NOT going to give him up. I don't fully understand that. I think a huge part of him not giving up the friend is that he will have to admit (in his mind) that he gave up the friend because of my love/lust/feelings for the friend, he'd have to admit that I love his friend/another man....and he CANNOT accept that.

I told him to read the texts. I gave him my phone. He told me he is not reading the fu*** texts. He does not want to hear about me being in love with some dude for two years. He does not want to hear about me wanting to f*** some other dude. He only wants to hear that I love only him. "This is over. You don't like anyone else. There. Done." He said that I am never to talk to him about this ever again. I am afraid I am hurting him by revisitng this over and over and over and over again.

...so I want(ed) to focus on making the marriage so strong, so renewed with romantic love, that his friend (in comparison) is not even a blip on my radar...

DH does not want to read the emails. DH will not read this MB site. And he hates this site...he thinks this site is putting all of these ridiculous ideas in my head. But I know how I feel...and I know this site has made so much sense to me. I have learned...I didn't even know that there was such a thing as EA before I began my research...and this site explained the anatomy of affairs, Mark's explanation of the chemical effects of love on the brain (didn't know that, either). Awhile ago this site was a lifeline to me. Even though I was the drowning person who was panicking, fighting the lifeguard, and making the rescue d*mn near impossible...you encouraged me to expose to DH (in a single day).

I don't like purposely thinking about the friend so much.

I was doing okay, I don't know about the text...I do. He had a big argument with his girlfriend. <--DH and his GF told me that.

Umm...okay, I read Resonance's thread Starting Over?. I see she is no longer here. I see how she thought she was overcoming her wayward mind and...she is not here anymore. I don't know what that means...but I hope it means she was successful. (I doubt it.) <--Maybe she'd like to tell me herself. I see 180 has been run off in a day or two. I hope she comes back. But I see that we WWs struggle...but I want to struggle and win. I want to be a success story. I want to be able to truthfully advise newbies that it can be done. ...that you can take someone as tough as fullmoon, 180, resonance, saddestwife...I can't remember who else...and they can be completely defogged and better than ever.

Unfortunately, DH is not in it with me...so I have to do it by myself. *sigh*

Vanilla, I don't know if you consider that "owning" it...I don't mind "owning" it, I just don't know what to do about it. And I didn't want to dig all this stuff up again so that I can move on. But I see...I can't get to step 2 without completing step 1.

heartfelt, I think you ARE a success story! I can sense your remorse and desire for a great marriage from here!

You know, you can't 'make' your H get on board with Marriage Builders, but you CAN show him the affects of following the program.

I think it's very selfish that he refuses to give up the OM/walking time bomb as a friend. That doesn't mean that YOU need to be around him. Will your H respect your need for him to keep OM away from you? Will he meet OM away from you and the house?

Concentrate on your personal healing, heartfelt. It's always so encouraging to me to read the posts of former waywards.

Sadly, not all WW's come back. I know that at least one of the other posters you mentioned is still extremely wayward and foggy. She refused to follow the MB program and bailed after hearing advice she didn't like. It's pretty sad, really. I think life is too short to live in misery. So stay here and work MB - I want you to continue to be a success story. I want other posters in your same sitch to read your thread and know there's hope.

No, he is not going to agree. I believe that... DH is trying to prove to me that this is "nothing" (by refusing to change a thing). DH wants us to interact and treat each other like regular friends. He wants me to see his friend with the GF-- so I can see that the friend does not love me.



Bliss, Thank you for the encouraging words/vote of confidence. I realize I still have a lot of work to do. Over a year has passed and I only realized a week ago the difference between me being honest and me being "radically" honest. And...even though DH will not agree to separate his friend and me, I could have been more committed to staying away from him. (I could have, for instance, had "other plans" whenever we all were to hang out.) This sort of thing I must do and I cannot skip these steps.

I NEED to be successful with this.

Yes. You've got it. You understand it, even though your H does not. This is an EP you need to take. I'm sorry your H doesn't respect your wish to do this. That will make it harder for you, but it's still doable.

It's a shame that your H isn't on board with you about this, but you can still be successful. Hang in there, heartfelt. You can do it!

I know that I must work on the issue with DH's friend first but here's an example of why I want to work on making the marriage better:

Right now DH is throwing away a lot of my toiletries. He says that we don't need them, I don't use them, and it is unnecessarily taking up space. He has asked me how I feel about him throwing my stuff away several times. I told "No". He keeps asking. Finally I say, "I already told you how I feel. Just throw it away!" He is throwing it away.

I tell him not to change my phone or computer. He wants me having the most updated technology. He changes it ANYWAY.

I tell him that I have feelings for his friend and he should stop being his friend. He says, "No, you don't."...and chooses not to give up the friend.

There is something that I have to fix in this marriage...that has nothing to do with his friend.

I told him all about MB, the concepts, the love bank (he thinks is weird), ENs, LB-ing, UA time, PoJA, EAs vs. PAs. He doesn't think we need it because HE doesn't need it. We have the workbook; he won't do it.

What can I do about this?

It appears that your H is more about control than companionship. It may be his culture, but it seems he thinks he knows what you want and need better than you do. Which is certainly not the case. You will resent him after a while if this continues. It is a form of disrespect or DJ. He knows what you want and need even if it's not what you want or need.

A bit chauvinistic.

fullmoon/heartfelt, I am heartened by your post in response to this. However, I don't think there's anything you need to *do* other than continue trying to learn and grow. I suggested what I said earlier because I do think it's helpful for you to supply that information for others here on the board - for your benefit in being radically honest with yourself, and for a courtesy to those posting to you/reading along. I didn't suggest it in order to open up the gates for a 2x4 flood, and I don't think that will happen as long as you continue on the path of humility and discovery that you seem to be on.

(Wow, I sound all high-horsed, don't I? I will be the first to admit I am in no position to be, well, on my high horse. Having a hard time picking the right words, so hopefully you understand what I'm saying.)

As far as your situation w/ DH and the friend -- as you and maritalbliss have been discussing, you control you. It'd be ideal if your DH were on board, but in lieu of that, guard your actions and implement your own EPs to still protect your M, your DH, and you.

There are a number of times where I have seen posters here with a reluctant spouse off the boards, and I suspect you will get good ideas on how to work MB and, hopefully, introduce it in a way your DH will be accepting of eventually.

Welcome back.

I found your new thread so moved my response to your thread instead of highjacking the other thread.


Thanks. I am not really welcome here but can't seem to leave so I switched to lurking. I stopped posting on my thread because I do not want to upset people or waste anyone's time. Maybe, eventually I will be convinced that they are right and I am wrong.

I can't give you any marriage advice but my husband is similar to your husband.

My husband does not know how to love. He avoids any conversation that deals with emotions. If he gets angry at someone or they screw up, he will just shut down and ignore them. Never apologizes or admits he is wrong.

He also tells me how I should feel. When I told him I was depressed and suicidal. He told me to stop being negative and that everyone has problems. Whenever I try to share how I feel, he tells me that my feelings are silly, crazy, stupid, negative or wrong.

He also believes I will never cheat so does not feel a need to protect our marriage. He has no problem with me coming home at one in the morning. When I told him that I was over the OM house, he just asked how he was doing. No questions about why I was there or what were we doing. As long as I take care of the house and kids and am available when he needs me, he does not care where I am or what I do. I am just his wife and can be easily replaced with any other woman.

I have a hard time buying that we can't get our emotional needs met outside the marriage. I know it is not the ideal way to get them met but my husband is not willing or capable to meet my needs so I go else where. I never heard of EA until recently. I discussed them with my therapist and determined that I have had EA throughout the 20 years of marriage. I have always had a special male friend. I never felt it was wrong and my husband always knew about them. And until recently, they were always married. I just have a hard time thinking of it as any different than having a female friend. They were not sexual. Not even flirty. And never close to being physical. And it is not like I think about them all the time. Anymore than I would daydream about a female friend.

I will follow along your thread. It may give me hope if you can breakthrough your husband's walls. You are doing great dealing with a difficult situation.

I saw one of your posts HF, and I usually like to read the whole thread of someone before giving advice, but something stuck out in the post, that made think I could shoot a little from the hip

I am posting on IPhone so I will keep it short

You seem to get it, that you have to do something, take action, ownership and responsibility for the state of the marriage

Your Wh seems to not get that yet.

He should be as involved as you are in this but seems stuck somewhere.

Just keep breathing the cool air of enlightenment for now

Will post more later

t/j Violette, please don't feel that you're not welcome here! You had affairs and won't come clean with your BH. That's a problem that is going to cripple any attempt you wish to make in having a healthy, romantic relationship with the man you married.

We aren't damning YOU - we're damning the SIN of your infidelity and continued deceit of hiding the truth from your unsuspecting husband. Believe it or not, our words are intended to HELP you. Please understand that.

Lurking is great - MB can only help you. But why not stop lurking and have a conversation with us? Don't be afraid. Fear is crippling.

Shaken,
Yes, it may be his culture. And I understand �a man being a man� and requiring a certain amount of control. I am actually very stubborn myself so he does not run all over me by any means. But I just don�t feel like I am being heard. At the very least, I should be able to say how I feel�and he trust that this is indeed how I feel. I am trying to figure out how to get him to understand this.

Yes, I have started the workbook on my own and I listed this as a DJ. Now�how to solve it???

In any case, I know I have my own faults�and I am willing to list them here. Perhaps, if I work on my own faults and he sees my improvement, he will be more open to considering that he may have one or two of his own. Who knows?

Vanilla,
Thank you for the �Welcome back.� I hope to keep the fog down to a minimum this time around. But I won�t count my chickens before they hatch. (lol)

And you don�t sound like you�re on a high horse. Several people have told me that I should address the issue with husband�s friend. I had been trying to just leave it behind since the friend is going to be in my life as long as DH keeps him in his own life (even if that�s because DH is mentioning his name to me every other day). I don�t exactly know how I will deal with that except to tune DH out as much as I can (at those times). Hopefully, as I work on the marriage and physically stay away from the friend, it will matter less and less over time.
I hope so! Looking forward to it!

Violette,
You are welcome here.

If it is okay with you, though, I am going to post to your thread after this response (so that we can talk about your story and keep all of your information together). I am glad that you are still lurking here and still hoping to find *something* here: hope, change, help??? I hope you choose not to disappear because I am certain that you will find a lot of useful information here.

I can tell you from personal experience that it is NOT EASY at all to listen to what these people have to say about you. You feel overwhelmed. BUT they are trying to force some sense into you. You and I are both that addict or �falling down drunk��and they are determined to get through to us.


All of this sounds very familiar to me. But what I am going to try to do is work on myself with the hope that this will encourage my DH to get on board at some point. I don�t really have the answers for it. Yes, keep following along; perhaps we will both learn a thing or two.



I don�t know enough to advise you and I am not far enough along on my own recovery but I do have some thoughts about what you�ve written. I never heard of EA before until I started this research after developing feelings for my husband�s friend. And I thought flirting was a normal part of socializing.

But I believe in what MB says about EA because�I was feeling all of these things, I didn�t know what was �happening to me�, and I started reading this MB information�and it explained what I was going through step by step. You would think I would have written the words myself! How could MB know this stuff?!? How could MB know what I was going through?!? MB knows because it is the truth, it is not so shocking after all, my situation is not so different from so many other people going through the same thing. Neither is yours.

And what I hear from MB is that this EA is going to turn PA. They are not saying �maybe� or �possibly� or �it could�; they are saying �it will�. MB listed every other step I went through�why would MB be wrong about that last step? I don�t think they are. �especially since I know that I have changed how I dress to impress this man, think about him all the time, have considered us being together intimately. Maybe you have done the same with this guy who you consider to be the type of husband you would want.

I don�t want to take the chance to find out whether it will happen or not. I want out.

I have never had any other special male friends. I cannot keep male friends. They always want to sleep with me or vice versa. That�s the truth. I let down my guard around this one man because he was my DH�s friend and presumably no threat to me or my marriage. Wrong. He hasn�t taken only because he is waiting for me to give. I�m trying to get the he77 out of there.

You already have enough on your plate. You have to address the physical affairs, the depression, your DH�s emotions (or lack thereof). You don�t need the EA on top of it. Do you?

I don�t know if you have looked at the link Anatomy of Adultery. (I don�t yet know how to create a link.) Someone posted it on my thread. But it is from a study of churchgoing people who admitted to unfaithfulness. Notice how the EA gradually grows closer to PA. I found myself in there. Do you find yourself there?

You say you have a tough time making it through life alone. Well you don�t need your EA partner to make it through. You have us.

I am not to give advice, I know. And if I have said something out of place, vets, I know you will let me know. Just hang in there, Violette. Try as much as possible not to be obstinate; really think about what they are saying. We can go through at the same time�and be better people for it.

It is aggravating that I see so many WWs disappear. I want to see them succeed and have hope for myself. It took me SO LONG to move forward.

So as an update... (OM) sent me another message in the form of song lyrics that was just...too much pressure. I ended up writing a NC letter to OM and his GF without my DH's approval. I figured at this point, I might lose him if I write it but I'd definitely lose him if I didn't.

This is Day 9 post NC letter and I feel like something that has been...I feel awful. There is a huge difference between passive "no contact" and an NC letter (I see). With this NC letter, I know that I hurt and/or angered OM. OM does not do well with "abandonment" (which I knew beforehand) and I am imagining all kinds of things about how he hates me (as if that should matter). I know that I have "betrayed" him (OM) and there is no turning back.

OM talked to DH about it the next day. DH was quite annoyed with me-- said that he didn't want to come home to me that evening. OM, then, proceeded to invite DH out with him for Friday night (DH didn't end up going)...then, they hung out on Tuesday and were planning to yesterday (until I had an AO).

I felt so bad about discarding GF with no warning that I apologized to her. I have not communicated with OM...but I am confused. With DH being his friend, does that count as my "contact"? Yes?

In other words, is this a lost cause?

You are on the right track.
Sorry that your husband is in denial and not trying to help you. It is like hearing the fire alarm and trying to wake him up, but he is convinced it is fals alarm and wants to keep sleeping.

At least you are awake.

Although I agree, that it is much easier when you have no contact with this man, this seems to bee difficult to achieve at this point in time.
There are things you can do though. You do not have to hang out with him. If your husband invites him, go to your sport studio and work out. That way you will not only look fantastic, but you will not be seeing him. (or go visit a girlfriend.)

I would also reccomend, that you tell the girlfriend that he has beene-mailing/texting you and that it is beginning to affect you in ways you don't like. You can show her the texts, so that she knows, and you can tell her, that you have decided you want to have no contact with him anymore, and consequently won't be spending time with her anymore. (if you didn't tell her this in any no-contact letter you wrote.)

Try to spend as much enjoyable time with your husband as you can. You know, it takes at least 6-8 weeks trying as hard as you can to reconnect. It may take a bit longer in your case, because of not-ideal contacts of your husband with OM.

Just tell your husband, he is right, and he is a better man for you than OM could ever be. You know deep in your heart, that it is true, and that you deserve better, than a man who is sexting another man's wife between his girlfriends and 'best' friends back.
Tell him also, that you want to get over your childish crush on the OM, and that you will not be parttaking in joint outings anymore and insist that he does not speak about him anymore. He wants you to be happy, right? Then he should at least keep his mouth shot.

Of course it is tricky if the other man is only an arm's length away, but you must try for the time being, and maybe work out another idea in the long run, when you and your husband become closer.

1
You should change phone- and e-mail numbers, or maybe have a joint e-mail-account.

2
Try to treat this to yourself as an addiction. Sadly, alcoholics don't get to live in a alcohol-free world, but many make it notwithstanding.

3
Can you expose yourself to some friends or familymembers of you, so they can give you back-up when you are tempted?

Women generally help their husband when he is feeling low. The sad thing is, not many men are emotionally equipped to deal with a woman who is feeling low. And research even suggest that they become LESS emotionally available and less pationt when their wives are struggling. (Sorry to all the men, I do not want to generalize, I know you her on MB are very consious of your wives feelings.) He probably never learned how to react properly and it totally in the dark.

You are absolutely not a lost cause. You will have to work harder for the time being. And if you have a setback, don't give up. Just stand up if you fall and keep going. You seem to be a strong intelligent woman, even if you don't feel like it.

Exposing was not a bad thing, but the girlfriend needs to know, to what extent her boyfriend whas pursueing you.

Keep going and start making your marriage better.
Good luck and God bless,

Happyheart.