I am new to this forum, but have read several post from others. I felt I should start a thread, so I could ask questions and receive some feed back.

My D-Day was 7-5-2011. I discovered letters and other stuff she was keeping to remind her of him in our bed room under our bed. We have discussed most details, we started seeing a therapist and are starting to recover.

I just need a place to vent, other than in my notes I take daily and the therapist.

We decided to keep this as quite as possible. Only 5 people in the world know anything about her and him. She told a "friend" who helped her hide it for at least 5 months.

Thanks in advance for any peace this brings me.

Tex,

Sorry you're here. We did a very limited exposure. It rarely works to stop the affair I am sorry to say. What have you done to ensure that she is no longer living that way?

CV

He lives over 300 miles away, so I know they can not see each other. I told her I was watching the cell phones for his number, which I know. That is how I stopped it. I and I'm sure no one wants to be here, but we r where we are because of what has happened. Fixing it and making it better is my only concern now.

Tex,

she is willing to do whatever it takes to recover your marriage? What has she expressed in regards to her feelings for OM?

One thing you absolutely need to do is sit with her and have her write a no contact letter to OM. One that you are in agreement with and send it off to him.

Cv

I guess I should start to fill in the story of WW ( I think this is right ) and the OM. We have been married for 18 years, and have a 14 years old daughter ( DD:14). In 1998, she came to me and said she needed to "get away" for a weekend. I travel with my job, and she said she needed a weekend to "relax" and "recharge". Being the nice guy I was.....I said sure. On the second night away, a mutual friend called me and said I needed to call her now, that she was about to meet another man in her room. I called, she admitted that and drove home that night. We discussed it, she said they had "only" kissed. They had met a few times closer to our home, but never gone anywhere together. She told me she was confused, needed time to think. I think she actually said she didn't know who she wanted. Needless to say, she stayed. We didn't see anyone, tell anyone or talk about it. It was taboo to even come close to the topic. I let the sleeping dog lie.....considered it dead and buried. Well.....

From what she has told me, she found him in FB September 2010. She says it was just a hi, how are you start. From there he would call or text while I was at work ( she was a stay at home mom, more on that later ). On one of our trips, she left the family at the hotel to visit a long time friend. I knew the women she was going to see. Well, that was a lie. I almost caught her that day because she erased the GPS. She denied anything other than she didn't know who to use it and it was an accident. Hind sight is 20/20!!!

From that day on, she has seen him on 3 other occasions, has sex with him on 2 of those. She says sex was not what she was looking for, but she was the one who asked to have it...even asked him to pay for the hotel room so they could go have sex. Their last "meeting" was in June, while she was on one of her girl weekend get away's. She borrowed a car and met him.

I have lived through he'll since my discovery. She told me she was not in love with me. She told me she loved him. She told me sex wit him was enjoyable. She said she let him do things I was not allowed to do during sex. For the entire time I have know her, she has said sex is not something she likes. She gets no or very little pleasure from it, finds in gross even. That is my biggest struggle. The emotional side I can understand, the sex I can not. We are seeing a therapist, and we are working on saving our marriage.

I'm sure I missed something, but will fill in any blanks if needed.

CV

How open are you to admitting you have no clue about where your marriage currently is, or how to end the (your words) hell you find yourself in?

CV,
The first affair with OM, was swept under the rug. We went to many marriage classes....moved a couple of time.... Life just seemed to pass by. I would go months and years without a thought of it. As far as I could tell, she was over him and I was over it.

The day of and the days after, I asked and was told many details. Some of which I wish now I did not know. She says she has been honest with me and will tell me anything I want to know. But when we discuss it, she gets defensive and angry. I have deferred to my therapist for any questions I Maynard for now.



NG,
I am not only open, I fully accept I have no idea where my marriage is right now. She says she doesn't want a divorce, I don't want to lose her....I love her more than I can describe. I am working the MB plan and going above and beyond meeting her needs. I've read 5 love languages, and boundaries. I am working as hard as I can. Just a few days ago, in a discussion, she told me she thinks of him often and will for a very long time. That one hurt after 4 weeks. She thinks she loves him and that he loves her. I know he doesn't. I will explain how I ended it on my next post.

First, she doesnt love him. Feel good about that. I dont believe she engaged in stuff in bed she wouldnt do with you, feel good about that too. These are things to hurt you because she is cornered.

Take charge of this disaster TODAY. Get the books from this website starting with Surviving an Affair and His Needs, Her Needs. Read them, and give them to her to read.

You will learn a lot about the adulterous mind and you will learn that this is NOT the end of your marriage if you follow the plan laid out.

I have standard line that I got from the other guys you'll hear from as they help guide you thru this because it definitely helped me: your wife is living in a deeply selfish, foggy, and infinitely stupid world right now. To be playing with fire involving all that she once held dear and most important in her life including children is insane. She needs to be snapped out of her insanity. Any man, married or not, who seeks to bang another's wife is about a low of a life form we have on the planet. Therefore, your wife is guilty by association. She should feel dirty.

So, get on with the program and you'll find a ton of the material on the main site here.

It aint over, Tex.

The reason that you are finding no success with applying the MB Principles is that you have not yet killed the affair. It is still active - in her mind.

WWs have this remarkable ability to carry forward a "mental affair" long after WHs would have realized the thing was over. Killing the affair is going to require the action that (as a modern western adult) you have scrupulously avoided because of the "unpleaseantness" that will accompany the action. You are going to have to expose the affair.

Exposure must be to her family and friends, to OM's family and friends (especially his spouse, GF, whatever). Her reaction will be all the worse because in her mind, she got out "clean" after your discovery and capitulation to her activities. She's going to essay the "Why are you bringing all this up now?" plaint, cry, rage, and blame YOU for the disruption. Nevertheless, it must be done.

Are you still game?

My D-Day started out like any other day. My new job ( I work from the house ) affords me the ability to help around the house. I was cleaning around our bed, changing sheets when I found a bag full of sex clothing, there was also a bottle of body oil. I knew then, it was not for me. In her nightstand drawer was an envelope full of letters from her, a letter from her "friend" and movie tickets and room key cards. I read every letter....the one from her friend hurt the most.

I laid all the material on the bed, and left the house. I made arrangements for the kids to stay somewhere else that night. I was leaving town the next morning and it seemed like a good way to be alone when the fireworks started.

Her text to me..... "What now" is burned into my memory. I told her I would be home and we would decide then. I didn't come home until 9. She was on the bed and I asked ...."Why".....that is all I knew to ask. It went from there. They had met a few times, and the timeline soon became my obsession. More on that later. She told me she loved him and that she loved me, but was not "in love" with me. She said they had never talked of running off, she didn't want to leave the family. She didn't want to leave the girls and miss out on their lives. She didn't want to miss family vacations, and all the other stuff families do. She never said she didn't want to leave me. She did say she didn't want to hurt me....but it was too late for that.

I know my WW was only involved this time for 9 months, but it seems I have been lied to for 12 years. My mind started running memories in reverse, seeing when or where I was on the days they met. I've gone over the calendar so many times I didn't even have to look at it to tell the therapist. Now every now and then a date or memory will pop into my mind, and I try to relate it to where she was or how she hid it from me then.....

The pain of hearing someone you love say they don't love you and that they love someone else is like murder to the soul. I have been numb for 6 weeks.

The one thing I started was making notes....I've written and read more in the past 6 weeks than I have since college. I go back and read them from time to time to see if I've gotten better. I have. Fear of finding out more or losing her are always there. Fear of her never loving me is also there. The one major question I have for her is " Why would you have sex with him, while telling me for the past 18 years that sex is gross?". It make me wonder if it is me. My male ego says.....your not what she wants, your not good, you are not big enough, strong enough, attractive enough ...all those sorts of things....I have to battle this internal struggle every day.

One last point on the sex.....when we married....neither of us had been with someone else. It was our uniqueness. I don't know another couple under 40 who hasn't had multiple partners. Now I feel like the 40 year old virgin. She gave away our uniqueness, not only gave it away..She asked him to take it and he did. It killed a part of me at the same time.

I will defer to vets for guidance.

But, know this, there is usually no good answer to Why?. Weakness, selfishness, and dumbness are things she'll someday admit, but dont expect it from her now as shes mired in the A.

There is a path to recovery, dont fret.

I felt the death of something as all BS do. I hate to use "wake up call" because if my FWW told me she had feelings for OM or even that she was sleeping with OM soon after it started we could have avoided tons of heartache. That's on her.

When this is over, your wife will be living the rest of her life knowing she dangled her family over a cliff for some meaningless sex. Our wives are broken and we have to fix them.

Some are sorry and grateful its over upon being caught, others need to be worked on. Mine the former, yours the latter.

Same boat, different rower.

Good luck.

Thanks Mike.
I have to believe there is a small part of her that is glad it is over. I don't know-how long she could have kept the secrete. She told one girl friend, I'm sure it was eating away at her. She is a very spiritual person, Sunday school teacher, led bible studies, went on women's retreats, in church every Sunday.....until the affair started. Then there was a noticeable withdraw from church and God. I am driving us that direction. But the pain and questions still linger. I told her once, it would have been easier to have been told she was dead, then this. I don't know if that's true, but it feels like it.

Just trying to stay strong. The 3 daughters know nothing, we've only told them mom is more depressed lately. Everyone is doing their best to make her feel better. I hope it works.

Tex,

Before some of the more militant posters get to you, I will tell you in advance you MUST tell everyone including your kids mommy has been fooling around on them.

Want to this end quickly and have her back? Let her babies know she's galavanting with someone not daddy.

My 11 year old daughter picked up the phone when OMW called after viewing cell phone video evidence of her husband being serviced by my wife. My wife will live forever knowing her little girl learned what a bj is the way she learned it. My kid went on her computer looked up "bj" and lit my wife up. She doesnt doesnt trust anything her mother says she doing and questions her every move. I love it.

Maybe your 6 yr old should be spared. But the other 2 need to know they, too, are being cheated on.

Ugly business, adultery.

Tex,

I was told the same crap from my ww. I hate sex, this is gross, I would never do that, etc, etc.....That just solidifies that honesty and openess is not high on their agendas. Don't buy into that bullsh#t.

On my d-day I found pictures my ww had professionally done in skimmpy crap supposedly for me that she sent the om. I look back now and laugh--who really does that-especially with a clear conscience. Funny how I can laugh about it now...

That image will fade with time Tex..I never thought I could heal from that same trauma--you will--whether you recover or not you will!

Still Smiling....I like how you say our wives are broken and we have to fix them....I wish you the very best on that..There is no fixing mine...

The therapist says we should be fully honest with each other, but we dint have to or need to tell everyone. What good does it do to my daughters to know she did this. What good does it do to her friends to know this about her. I am all for full exposure, I think that some of the "tell everyone" mentality is revengeful. I haven't even to the OMW that this has occurred.

It seems there are mixed messages, choosing the one for me will be my battle.

Just wait until Melody et al get on here and you are cruisin' for a brusin'.

GET OFF THE COMPUTER AND TELL OMW NOW.

Its not revenge, sir. Its exposing a travesty she is undertaking on you, you kids, her sisters, brothers, parents, OMW's family, and so on. Exposure is the only way to end it. Once its ended, your real hard work begins.

Let me tell you about therapists as I have on others' threads. I went to one 2x after dday by suggestion of my doctor (who, by the way, gave me anti depressants which if you are so inclined should look into). I was consumed by the sex my wife gave up to OM. My psychologist suggested that I ask for, nay, demand anal sex from my wife as my claim to her body. That was it. Never went back. Worthless use of time and copays.

Anyway, i digress.

IS- Just finishing going thru your thread earlier. Sorry about everything, but, man, you seem like you are in a real good place today.

I think luck has a lot to do with this. Some have luck that their WS are remorseful and needed a way out of the A. And others, well not as lucky.

Good luck.

I once read a church bulletin article that claimed that farmers/shepherds could always tell when their livestock were sickly because they would withdraw from the herd, implying that church leaders could learn to recognize this as a warning sign in their flocks. Since that time, I've seen it to be true several times. I had a good friend in high school who talked Bible with me and then withdrew to a new crowd. Years later I learned he and his new crowd were making fun of me behind my back and that the reason he withdrew was he had decided to become sexually active and didn't want to be around me because it would plague his conscience. He ended up impregnating a girl and then marrying her; it ended in divorce. He confessed all this to me years later.


An insensitive man once tried to comfort my father during his divorce from my wayward mother by telling him "At least she's not dead." Another man intervened and said he'd buried one wife and lost another to an affair, and he could testify that the affair was far, far worse.


I'm not completely up to speed on your situation, but were you advised to tell your daughters nothing? This strikes me as extremely unfair to them.

A horrific blow has been struck to the foundation of their lives (your marriage). They should know what has happened so that they can process their feelings about it. If they are left in the dark they may come to some incorrect and even very unhealthy ideas about what is wrong.

I feel i need to explain how I ended it.....

The day after D-Day I left town on a business trip. Very near to where he lives. Remember, he is 300 miles away, but we visit and I work in that town quite often. Anyways.....I went to our cell phone records and found a number. I called it.....late that night, must have been midnight or so. He didn't answer so I hung up. Sent him a text...something like "this is WW, we need to talk. "
The next morning I sent him another text, ...." are you available?" ..... A few minutes later.... He responded.... "are you ok, why the call so late and the two text"....... I simply wrote, "my husband knows".....I wish now I had waited to tell him, maybe had him give me how he felt at that moment, then told Jim and judged his reaction. His reaction was total retreat......I kept ip the texting for two days. He was out of town, and could text back quickly. He kept repeating....we have to stop, you have to never contact me again, you need to work on your marriage and do whatever it takes to have BS forgive you....I didn't go away quietly.....I ( pretending to be WW ) would say things.... I thought you loved me, I think we can get past this, will you leave OMW for me if I do, maybe in a year I can contact you again.....he was addiment on never talking, seeing, communicating again.....so then I got angry.....said things like.....you used me, you didn't love me, you've done this before, if things don't work out for me, I will come to see you and OMW,.....he retreated back to being nice, saying BS will forgive you, you will work it out, you are a good person....crap like that..... I went back to .... when I can contact you again, when can we see each other again....his reply...never. We have to end it now. You have to stop now..... I went angry again....Why did you have sex with me, why did you use me like that..... His reply...and this one hurt...."You asked me to have sex with you, I wasn't looking for that, you were the one who pushed for that"......I then went back to I will never get over you, I will contact you again....I don't know when, but I will.......his final reply was this..."We've been living out a high school fantasy, it wasn't real, we can not communicate again. You have to focus on your family and your husband..". ...... With that I said .... "you are right" ....she does. This is not WS, this is BS and has been for the past three days. Here are my conditions....NEVER communicate with my wife again, if I even suspect there is any, I will tell your wife and your employer ( he would meet her on company time )..... This is over, it may have been a fantasy, don't turn it into a nightmare!!!". I went silent for a few hours. I then sent this last message. "just so we are clear, if any communication is going to take place, I will make the call. If you understand, reply with a simple "K"..... Within seconds I got the "K".

Over the past several weeks I have thought of texting him I was on my way to tell his wife,
Texting him I had left WS, just to see what he would do. I dream sometimes of leaving notes on his car with a message...." I know what you did last summer"....just to scare the crap out of him. I want him to live looking over his shoulder, getting nervous every time the phone rings. I want him to suffer a living hell like we are.....but no. He is probably relaxing never giving it a thought......that angers me.

I told WS what I had done, she was mad, but who cares. I ended it. No I'm sorry's, no one last time, no letter to write or be kept....just a quick bullet to the head....it's dead. I have no regrets. I deleted the text more than a week ago. Don't need dead bodies stinking up the place. I am moving forward. Never forgetting, but moving towards forgiveness. Not there yet, but hopefully soon.

We haven't had sex since D-Day, don't know if I'm ready for that. I kills me to think she had sex with him and me in the same week. I will describe our sex life later....it won't take long.

Start firing them at me. I know I'm a fool, I've felt like one for several weeks. Just doing the best I can with the advice I get. Most of what I've done is from the gut.....just like joining this forum. I hope to piece back the life I had, and make the marriage even better.

**edit**

One last point about my WW.....she is a depresses person. Has been since I've known her. Everyone knows about that. When things get tough around the house, we use that as an excuse for the daughters.

Therapist recommended and WW is going to see a pychc. next week. She believes there may be a bi-polar disorder. Therapist told WW, no matter the diagnosis, the affair had nothing to do with that. It was a choice she made, not a mental condition that caused her to do what she did.

I still want her to get the help and drugs she needs... Maybe they can help lift the fog....?

You went the extra mile (or 300) to establish NC between OM and your wife. I like it.

You accomplished much including realizing your wife was the aggessor in this deal. Hurts, but no biggie. Get over that.

Now you have to end it your wife's head because tho you were the texter, I think you said a lot of your wife's thoughts in those texts.

Truth be told, its sounds like your wife was sowing some wild oats here. Doesnt make it ok or better.

Its time to open up the lines of communication with her by using the tenets of MB.

Their parents' depression and coldness to each other is being seen by the kids.

But, congrats you should be happy that NC seems to be established but you need WW to sign on to that.

I agree more with shielding them. I want them to have a positive outlook on life. Not be worried everyday that their parents may get divorced. We have both said, we want to work through this and work to make the marriage better than we have ever had it. Communication levels are way up, sensitivity to each other feelings is way up.....we just have to get past and destroy the storm in the center.

I have been leaving little notes for WW. Cooking dinner, buying gifts(small), telling her I love her in front of the kids....they know how I feel. She has been slower, but she is still in the fog and in denial. She will come out of that, then we will see if she can work on us.

I always felt we were a good couple....not a great couple. Great couples work to please their partner. We didn't always do that. She withheld sex, I withheld time alone, she withheld encouraging words, I withheld acts of service.....it a viscous cycle. Those days are done. We need to load our LB as full as we can.....so that when small withdraws are made and they will be, it doesn't put us in the red. Her toughest challenge maybe enjoying sex with me again. It didn't seem to matter how many classes we took, that need was never met. I was like a chore for her, one she hated doing. Laying there with a discussed look on her face, telling me to not touch her and hurry up.
as I mentioned b4, I have never been with another women, so I don't know if it's me...or just her. If it is me, will she tell me...if she does, can I handle that. Those questions I want answered, but fear knowing will make it worse.

The male ego is a fragile thing I've found out.

All good stuff. I, too, do a lot things I never did before to make things better. We kiss in front of people and hug and grab tushes all things we never did before.

My kids learned of the A at the same time I did so we faced the need to get their heads on right from the get go.


My family was over our house on dday for Mother's day, so they learned about it when i did. Later that night, her parents got the info. But, exposing is critical.



I will say this and I have all the time on my thread, my FWW was fantastic post dday. Got both our kids into counseling session at their schools, got me to doctor where I havent been in years, got herself into a new job (she worked for OM), was attentive to me like never before, and spent everyday since growing up.

Our marriage has never been better.

A reminder to posters to stick to MB concepts when posting to those seeking marriage advice. Please keep in mind this forum is for the purpose of learning Marriage Builders, not to promote our own personal philosophies. Thank you.

I asked all the sex questions. I was my wife's 2nd. And the first was nothing to write home about. And, she too wasnt exactly the nympho type pre marriage or after.

She has gone to pains to tell me that the sex with OM wasnt like I was envisioning. Erotic exursions into fantasy worlds of toys and oils and multiple positions, never happend. Is she lying to make me happy?, one will never know.

One has to block out the fact that another dude had access to what you thought was once yours alone. No easy task.

You get to live, now, knowing you are still pure and she is not. She has a lot to do make things right. She'll never have that purity but thats fine. You learned of her weakness and you have a starting point. My wife felt trapped in her A by weakness and fear of life in the real world. This was our starting point.

And, by the way, we have delved into a new world of intimacy where we never were before. She has downloaded how-to articles and is more free with herself than ever.

It can be done, Tex. Give it time.

I just wanted to chime in on this point. Never warn or threaten to expose - just do it. If you threaten to expose, he will tell his BW "there is this crazy guy who is convinced I had an affair with his wife" and discredit you. Best to have your evidence lined up and pull the trigger.

Make copies of your evidence if you haven't yet. Emails and text messages have this way of disappearing.

Definitely tell OMW. She has a right to know the truth about her life and make informed decisions. If the situation was reversed, wouldn't you want someone to tell you?

Also - your kids should know, in an age appropriate way, what WW has been doing. Same for your families and close friends - anyone who can put pressure on WW to stop the A and keep it stopped, and keep her honest, is a valid exposure target.

Exposure has been likened to a 'tsunami of truth'. Do it all at once, in the same day if possible - don't make the mistake of dribbling it out until she straightens up!

No matter how bad the A sex was, believe it or not it gets even yuckier as the fog lifts. Still hurts like h*ll to the BS but it's comforting to know it was sterile/awkward/weird/gross/etc.

Thanks Bit....

I am afraid that window may have already come and gone. I don't have the emails....he never sent her anything. It was her. On D-Day....I told her if she wanted to sleep in this house she had to burn everything in the envelope. She went out to the fire pit and burned everything. She later said I "made" her, but I look at as it was a choice she made...just like the affair.

Kids will find out if things don't work out, but not until then....unless be accident.

ITA with all of this.

The one big mistake you�ve made is that you�ve shielded OM from consequences. Want to know why he was freaking out when you told him that �my husband� knows? He was terrified that you would contact his wife to tell her about the affair.

Not doing this is a huge mistake.

My advice, if you truly wish to kill this affair and recover, is to expose to OM�s wife ASAP. You threatened to do it and said you wouldn�t. That was a mistake. OM has the best of all worlds. He screws your wife, turns your life upside down, and gets you to promise you will never tell his wife.

Incredible. Can I work out a deal like that? That�s dynamite.

I�m being sarcastic on that last part, but if I were to ever cheat on my wife, I would want to have the other woman�s husband�s permission to do it and never tell my wife I did it.

Fantastic.

IMO (and Dr. Harley's) this is a mistake. Your poor children alraedy know something is terribly wrong...they deserve to know it is not them and they are not doing anything wrong. Children always blame themselves.

At the bare minimum (I don't know their ages but even very young children can understand ~ and learn ~ from this): "Mommy told Daddy a very, VERY big lie and it has hurt my feelings really bad. We are working on fixing this and we love you very much. THis is not your fault".

Older children should be told the truth. I told our children that Daddy had a girlfriend and that is not ok when you are married, and that it had hurt my feelings terribly. They understood this and I was happy to be able to teach them how very wrong adultery is. Society makes a joke out of it and it is far, far, FAR from being a joke. Children need to know this so that society's skewed ideas on adultery don't take hold in their little minds.

Har-rumphf!!

And yes, OMW needs to know. That will accomplish two things:

It will give her the right to know that her H is a liar and a cheater; she can get tested for STDs and protect herself from his philandering. It's the right thing to do; you would want to know if the tables were turned

and

it will help you have an extra set of eyes on OM to watch for contact from her side.

T2S,
In somewhat less than four hours, since my last posting, roughly a half-dozen colleagues here have told you that exposure on OM's side is vital. If you're not yet sold on that fact, say so, and tell us how many other veterans of what you're just starting to go through will it take to convince you. Whatever that number, it should take, oh, another couple of hours to round them up. (And, dude, you DO NOT want to be dithering about this when a certain fellow Texan, carrying a loaded shotgun, comes calling here!)

I've read article How Affairs End, .... I wish for the mercy for way #1. These two are not leaving families for each other.....that much I know, way #2....and since we are out of state and hundreds of miles apart, I don't know why #3 is the perfect way either. If he lived near by or they had a chance of "running" into each other...than yes, full exposure may be needed.

I want peace of mind for me, my children, OMW, her children, and everyone who loves all of us. It is not going to change anything by posting this on the nightly news. It will only add to pain of others and raise the cost to me and WW. I am a merciful person.....

Beware, once discovered, many waywards take their affairs deeper underground, pretend to be staying with the marriage and breaking contact with affair partner.
They get secret prepaid cell phones. Open new email accounts with hotmail/yahoo/whatever and appear to be co-operating.
Also, lots of marriage counselors just do not help a marriage. They are not magic nor is the coursework for this part of psychology very logically developed or understood. It focuses on feelings more than logical steps to build or rebuild a relationship.
Study the Marriage Builders concepts. Get Surviving An Affair, the book and read, read, read some more.

I am a merciful person.....

Prove it. Show mercy to the unknowingly afflicted and inform OMW of the state of her marriage.

That will take mercy coupled with courage. Without that action, the suspicion is that "merciful" is a code-word for "fearful".

In ending #1, is there anyone here who can say that it didn't affect the marriage?? Did it strengthen the WS and bring them closer or did it embolden the WS to try it again. If it grounded the marriage and WS went back to BS and worked to meet needs, why would BS need to know. So that BS could have to go through hell? I don't agree.


Every situation is different, not every time does full exposure end well....nor does every secrete destroy trust.

Classic BH mistake. �We�re different�, �You don�t know us or our situation�, �I know better because�..�

The reality is that we�ve seen your movie many times before. BH comes here, thinks he has all the answers, gives us the same excuses, and then wonders why there�s no progress and no recovery or comes back years later to tell us all we were right.

We�re telling you that not telling OM�s wife is a HUGE mistake. Not only does she have the right to know, it also makes sure that contact is killed for sure since you get another set of eyes on the other end to keep tabs on him.

But, you know better. We�ve only been at this for years and have our own experiences to go by.

Good luck. You�re on the path to failure.

Well, you now know (by painful experience) what happens without exposure. Your WW's affair was rekindled. Your WW's affair is not yet dead, due to lack of exposure.
"Doh"

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over & expecting different results.

This video will cost you 30 minutes.
Pretty inexpensive.

[video:youtube][/video]

Infidelity: What every couple should know.


What every MB forum poster should watch.

No, every situation is not different. The cast of characters might be different, but the tactics for recovery are not different. Exposure is the most effective method of recovery in a marriage. Dr Harley is adamant that the OP's spouse and your children be told of the affair.

There are so many reasons, one hardly knows where to start. The strongest one would be that the OMW cannot protect herself and her children frm your wife as long as she doesn't know about the affair. As long as she doesn't know, your wife is free to contact her H and vice versa. She won't be any wiser so she won't know to stop it. With 2 people watching from both ends, the affair is much more likely to die off. Many former WS's have stated that this is what prevented them from contacting the OP again. They didn't want to risk the OP's spouse finding out and then informing their own spouse.

Your wife can't very well claim to be remorseful or repentant as long as her other victim remains in ignorance. This is part of your wife's recovery to justly compensate this woman by making sure she is aware of the affair.

The next big reason is the morality of informing someone they have been harmed behind their back. Would you inform your neighbor that his bookkeeper was embezzling money from him? Any decent would do that. No one would buy the excuse that telling them would hurt them. And it is the same here, what hurts is the crime, not finding out about it.

Not telling your children only teaches them dishonesty. Kids are harmed by adultery and lies, not by telling them the truth. Any one who advocates lying to children has clearly not thought it through. Dr Harley is a clinical psychologist with 40 years experience saving marriages and he strongly suggests telling your kids the truth. That will give them a chance to ask your wife why she did that to their family. She owes them an explanation.

Dr. Harley on telling the children:

here



here

here

When Should an Affair Be Exposed?

You are back experiencing another adultery because you were afraid to expose adultery # 1.

CV

Betrayed spouse's FEAR will ruin any chance of recovery ! <<<< Click this link !

You are getting great advice here. I have just one thing to say to you about exposure to OMW. It is the utmost in cruelty to another human being to not let them in on the TRUTH of the state of their marriage that you are privvy to AND to leave her at risk of STD's because you chose to do what her WH did to her...leave her in the dark.

Texas2:
frankly, its not about protecting anyone or being kind or not putting someone through hell...
I fought performing exposure. And I fought. Posters here pretty well gave up on me. Eventually my anger kicked in and I exposed in anger (NEVER RECOMMENDED).
I learned several things.
Some right after exposure (that is be prepared and have a support system in place to help you deal with the incredible anger you will get from your spouse)... Now 18 months later.... I have a spouse who knows I will and did do anything to protect our marriage and family (not a bad thing at all). And... I know I did the right thing.
HONESTY is ALWAYS the BEST Policy. Lies of omission are just that. Lies. If your spouse won't tell other man's wife then the simple truth is you don't have a marriage. You have an arrangement. I know. First hand.
AND YOU DON'T WANT TO LIVE THAT WAY. You will hate yourself every day because every day you will know that your WW chooses to protect her AP over protecting you by making every possible effort to prevent the A from every re-starting.
I feel for you. I do know your pain. What you are being told is to act like you are valuable. Yes exposure will cause pain. But, absent that exposure, you will rot from the inside out and you will never, ever trust your wife. And no matter how much you try... you will never know "in love" with your wife again. Nor will she for you.
I really hurt for you.
But when your wife and you will sacrifice anything for each other... then and only then will you have committed love. What you have now is simply a rope around each other's neck.

Blessings
Me BS 56
She WW 50
Hers 18, 22
Mine 22, 28, 30
Ours DS 12
D-Day 1 - April 26 2009
D-Dapy 2 - October 15 2009
Exposed February 22, 2010
Me: Reforming Verbal Abuser
She: still won't divulge OM # 2 despite overwhelming evidence, but slowly, ever so slowly, she is turning towards me. But it is more of an arrangement than a marriage.
Attending Counseling following MB Principles - maybe there is hope but other days I wonder if this is not a slow lingering death

Like we say in Texas, money talks and bullsh** walks. A merciful person does not help hide a crime from a victim. If you are truly "merciful" and want "peace" for the OMW and her children, then tell her what has been done to her so she can protect herself and her children from your wife and her husband.

If someone was embezzling her money or molesting her child, would you be trotting out these lame excuses? She can't have peace until she knows the truth and is in a position to protect herself from your wife's assault on her family.

Put your money where your mouth is, friend!

Tex,

I tried to tell you.

I tried to convince me too back in the beginning that my deal was different. Sure, the facts are always different, but the techniques to recapture the marriage is always the same.

Until you let all know who need to know, you are pushing a boulder up a hill. You'll run out of steam and get crushed underneath.

(NG-Not as eloquent as your metaphors, but not bad, right?)

Seriously, this has been an emotional day, let alone few weeks for you.

Take a breath and listen to what these people say.

Youre getting some real good people angry and you wont like them when theyre angry. These are survivors gracious enough to help lost souls like ours. Even those whose marriages DID NOT survive the adultery are ready to advise. Do you think they'll steer you wrong?

No.

Agree. By helping your wife and the OM hide their crime from the OMW, you become an accessory to the crime. You become just as cruel, manipulative and DANGEROUS to this woman and her children. If you don't tell her, she will not think kindly of that act of cruelty on your part.

You will be just as guilty as the adulterers. Don't drive the getaway car, Sir.

Tex,

Let me share some tidbits (since it seems you are a professing Christian) from a sermon series I did some time back on Ephesians Sorry for its length:


Theme: The Husband who Loves his wife as Christ Loves the Church not only glorifies God, but honors her as well.

Eph 5:25-33 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, (26) that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, (27) so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. (28) In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. (29) For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, (30) because we are members of his body. (31) "Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." (32) This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. (33) However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

Introduction:
In 1989, Freddy Curci, and his band Sheriff had a number one hit (4 years after the band broke up):
Listen to the words of this song:
I never needed love like I need you
And I never lived for nobody, but I live for you
Oooh, babe, lost in love is what I feel when I'm with you

Maybe it's the way you touch me with the warmth of a sun
Maybe it's the way you smile, I come all undone
Oooh, babe, lost in love is that I feel when I'm with you

Baby, oh I get chills when I'm with you
Baby, my world stands still when I'm with you
When I'm with you

I never cared for nobody like I care for you
And I never wanted to share the things I want to share with you
Oooh, babe, lost in love is what I feel when I'm with you

This song was a number one hit, written by the keyboard player to the girl that would become his wife 2 years later. It�s a nice, powerful, romantic song� But it�s lacking something� It�s lacking the biblical focus of what a successful godly marriage needs.

� This song is founded on feeling, on how he feels
� What this girl does for him.
� Ephesians 5 contrasts this with what genuine biblical love looks like between a husband and a wife
� Paul gives us 3 things about marriage in regards to how the husband is supposed to view marriage, love and Christ.


1. The Love of Christ: (25) Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, (26) that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,

a. What is love? To be well pleased or contented with, Agapao, not phileo or eros
� The verb� what�s it do? Describes action.
� Love is the grounds for the husband�s headship.
� As Christ loved the church (the bride), so the husband loves the church. Paul�s phrase here lifts the responsibility of the man to love his wife to the highest plane�
� Look at I. Corinthians 13�

1Co 13:4-7 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant (5) or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; (6) it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. (7) Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

� Christ has shown us an active love. More than just feeling, biblical love is action,
� It sets the bar for the marriage�
� Love is giving one�s self up: sacrifice, to surrender to. It is the ultimate self-sacrifice.
� Here is a grand rule, according to which every husband is called to act: Love your wife as Christ loved the Church.
� But how did Christ love the Church?
i. He gave himself for it - he laid down his life for it. So then husbands should, if necessary, lay down their lives for their wives:
ii. and there is more implied in the words than mere protection and support;
iii. as Christ gave himself for the Church to save it, so husbands should labor to promote the salvation of their wives, and their constant edification in righteousness.
iv. we find that the authority of the man over the woman is founded on his love to her, and this love must be such as to lead him to give his life for her.
v. Christ Gave: Literally surrendered.. This means we lay aside our own preferences for our wives.
vi. Christ�s own conduct should serve as our example:
Php 2:6-8 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, (7) but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. (8) And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

vii. Christ�s life of humility, of surrendering himself is one which we should model for our wives and children.
viii. The work of the Shepherd is one of humility
ix. We may not rule our homes in terror, but in humility and love.
� Husbands, do you love your wives? Do you lay your life down for her? Leaders, do you love your sheep as Christ loved his sheep? Do you know them by name? Do you love them and care for them? Do you lay your life down for them?
� Are you well pleased with your church, knowing that these people are the bride of Christ and have been placed here by Christ for you to nurture and care for them?

b. Sanctification through cleansing by washing of water with the word.
� Paul has baptism in mind as he talks about the joy os being a godly husband
� The idea is that the husband has to have his wife�s spiritual well being at heart as much as her physical, if not more.
� Care for the soul of the wife, the bride, is paramount to Paul as he addresses the Ephesians.
� The wife, the bride, is to be sanctified, made holy, set apart by being washed with the word.
� In the New Testament the bride passed through a purifying bath before marriage,
� We see this parallel in Scripture with baptism. The bride is marked, set apart through being cleansed by the word.
� True love for our wives is seen in how we wash them with Christ�s Word. True care for the flock comes through preaching Christ.
� The word of the Lord never returns void!
� Husbands, bathe your wives in the word! Love her, care for her, treasure her by taking care of her soul as Christ cares for yours!!
� Leaders, Care for Christ�s Bride!!
� Do so for this purpose:

2. The Call to Husbands: (27) so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish(28) In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

� Presented in splendor: glorious, gorgeous:
� Decked out! Dressed to the nines�
� I remember your wedding day! There was no one on earth more beautiful than your wife, right?
� On that final day when Christ returns, let us stand before him glorious, gorgeous. In splendor
� Without spot or wrinkle
� Christ wants a bride that is pure. Not a pock mark, no scars, no imperfections.
� Paul is using this idea of one who�s skin is perfect, one who is beautiful when presented to the bride groom
i. That there will not be any such thing as an imperfection in the bride as she presents herself to her groom.
ii. Wives, husbands, do you remember how hard you worked to make yourself look good for your spouse on your wedding day?
� This is the idea that Paul is presenting us with, but more�
� To be holy
� Christ wants a bride set apart, He is setting apart his bride.
� So too should husbands desire to set their wives apart.
� Our wives should hold a place of honor with us
� We should not consider them a common thing, Christ has given them specially for us to care for
� Do you look at your wife and think �there are many noble women, but you surpass them all�?
� To be without blemish
� Without a physical mark
� Christ is working in his bride so that on that day, we who are betrothed to him will be made perfect so that we will be a bride suitable for the bridegroom at the hour of his coming!

3. The Two-Fold Purpose: (29) For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, (30) because we are members of his body. (31) "Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." (32) This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. (33) However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

a. No one ever hated his own flesh
a. Every man loves himself
b. We care for ourselves
c. We nourish and cherish our own flesh
d. In this same way, Christ nourishes us and cherishes us
e. The two fold purpose is seen in the divine reflection between marriage and Christ and the church.
b. Because we love our wives, because we love our church, We should Nourish her: Nourish (ektrephei). (to nourish up to maturity and on).
� Used only here and Eph_6:4.
� BECAUSE WE LOVE OUR WIFE, OUR CHURCH, WE SHOULD CHERISH HER
o Cherisheth (thalpei). Primarily it means to warm, to foster with tender care.
� Because WE are members of HIS BODY (CHRIST�S)!!!
� We are all members of Christ's body, the church. But the church is his Bride. Hence the language of Gen_2:23, where Adam declares that his wife "is bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh," applies to our relation to Christ.
� Because woman came from man, because in marriage we become one with our spouse, we should love and care for her above all other things
� Do you love your work more than your wife?
� Do you love your �things� more than your wife?
� Or maybe your food? Money? Clothes?
� Maybe your kids or friends?
� What are your idols? What have you placed above your wife?
� By virtue of our being married to Christ, you could say that we are �one flesh� with him� Our marriage to our wives pictures our marriage to Christ!
� It is the mystery of the church!!!
� What is Christ calling us to? Trust and submission to Him� We can�t do this on our own. In HIM WE CAN!!!
� Why is this picture given for marriage? Because of the intimacy of marriage. Christ�s love for us is not some general love for his creation, It�s a love for His own people� He knows us intimately!!!
� Do you value your marriages?
� Do you value your church memberships?
� This mystery is exceedingly great!
� This profound truth, beyond man�s power of discovering, but now revealed, namely, of the spiritual union of Christ and the Church, represented by the marriage union, is a great one, of deep import.
� We are marked by the love we show first to Christ, then to each other�. We are known by Christ.
� How are you known to your wife and kids in your marriage?
� How are you known to your friends?
� Most importantly, how are you known by Christ in your marriage, and is what you project to those around you accurate and true?

(And, dude, you DO NOT want to be dithering about this when a certain fellow Texan, carrying a loaded shotgun, comes calling here!)

Now she's here.

Again, I tried my best to forewarn you of whats to come.

Exposure really is the only way 98% of the time to kill an affair. It takes the mystery and romance out of it. The fantasy is killed. It shows her friends and family the level of dishonesty she went through.

Think of it in Gospel terms. Christ was the light that came into the darkness (John)and shed light on men, but men loved the darkness and hated the light because their deeds were evil.

Exposure sheds light on the sin and brings it in the open. It forces honesty and openness and it forces accountability for actions. Vengeance is with the motive to hurt. Exposing in love is to restore and reconcile.

Who said anything about posting it on the nightly news? People who don't know you don't need to know; but those who DO need to know for a.) their support and b.) to have an extra set of eyes on the adulterers. Trust me ~ the first time I found out about my H's affair I did not expose properly (didn't know about MB yet).

That led to a 10-month false recovery. Nothing could have been worse.

P.S. and if you want to talk about having mercy, letting the OMW in on what is happening to her life is about the most merciful thing you could do. Keeping that crucial bit of info from an unsuspecting woman would be merciless.

Tex, I'm a FWW in an unrecovered M with a BH who is about 4 months away from being able to file for D in our state. I wanted to weigh in on a couple of points.

First, HTLD is correct in that it's a mistake to assume that your situation is somehow "different" or "special." It's not. One thing I've learned since coming here is that A's are remarkably similar - how they start, how they progress, the mindset of the WS, etc. You've got a garden variety WW who is obviously still very much in the fog. Her owning up to her actions and what it has cost her is critical in breaking through the fog.

Now, I'm saying this as a FWW who made my own feeble attempt to expose to OMW about 3 months after landing on these boards. I have no way of knowing whether or not she knows, and it makes *me* angry (as I am sure it still does my H) to imagine that POSOM is happily rolling along, consequence-free, free to start up his nth affair. My A has now been over almost 2 years, and I've gotten a lot of mixed advice about what to do as far as re-exposing at this point. Additionally, my H has no interest in recovering our M, so let me just say that now is the optimal time to do so, in an effort to snap your W out of her fog and as you want to recover the M.

As for telling the children, ours are on the young side as well, but I've taken time to explain to them that Mommy hurt Daddy, Mommy lied to Daddy, why that is wrong, and that it makes Daddy too sad to be with Mommy - also to make it abundantly clear that it is not their fault, that no matter what we still love them and will always be there for them. My plans are - whatever happens to my M - when they are older to tell them everything. A lot of folks IRL completely disagree with this, and have given me examples of kids who were never told the "whole truth" about why their parents split up. I don't care. My goal is that I want to make dang sure that this never happens to my daughters.

I trickle truthed my H for months after his initial discovery of the A and its termination. I also lied to everybody else - family, friends, even the MC - I tried to get everyone to believe the A was "only" an EA. One of the things my H wanted me to do when he learned it was actually an EA turned PA was to tell everyone I'd been lying to - that included my best GF's and my parents - the truth. I did so, including his aunt, who was the only family member on his side who knew what was going on. When he moved out at the beginning of this year, I also told his family the truth, b/c I didn't want them to blame him for our separation and marital failure.

If your W is serious (and unfortunately until she gets her head out of the fog, neither you or her will know if she's serious), she'll do whatever it takes to recover your M. I won't bore you with the list of things I tried to do to prove this to my H, and am still trying to do (if you have a spare week one day, you can wade through my monster thread), but suffice to say she should be working her butt off.

One other comment I wanted to address - I read it earlier but didn't have time to respond until now, so I apologize if this has been addressed in the meanwhile and I missed it:


While this is an admirable goal, it is impossible. Two spouses working the MB plan together can save their M, but it takes two. One may be able to bring the other spouse around eventually, but complete R will never happen until both are engaged. And yes, your WW is broken. So am I. So is every other WS who has ever lived. The thing is, you can help her heal (although she needs to tend to your hurts first, that's the sad part about the BS trying to end the A and get the WS back, is in the beginning having to do all the heavy lifting when they are so grievously wounded)...but you can't "fix" her. She has to address and confront the broken parts inside her - why she had such poor boundaries, why her moral compass went so far out of whack...but if she doesn't recognize why/how she is broken, you can't fix her. It is also not something you "have" to do - fix your M, or help her heal. As the BS you can always decide, as my H did, that she's "not worth it" and walk away. She may not be worth it. That's something you have to decide, and she has to try and show you that she is - or can be - worth it.

I dunno if that makes sense, and maybe it comes out of my mindset on my current sitch, but I just wanted to throw it out there.

Tex, do you want them to have a positive outlook on life or a realistic one? We cannot shield our kids from life (especially when the hurt comes from us). What sets us apart is guiding our kids through these rough times and bringing them to a clear, well balanced view. Sin hurts, sin kills, Grace heals and covers, it restores. That despite the fact that people can and do fail (even mommy and daddy), there is hope for joy... This is a realistic one IMO.

CV

Many good posts here.

Lying to kids does not make them happy or secure. Illusions do not make them feel secure. Unfortunately, kids are not as stupid as most parents believe and sense something is wrong. They usually conclude that the WRONG is them unless someone gives them the truth.

There is absolutely no legitimate reason to lie to kids about affairs. It is not good for them and certainly not good for the wayward. Whitewashing the crimes of your spouse helps no one.

Tex,

Let me tell you as one who exposed to very few (OMW, her parents, her brother, our three kids)... You end up living exactly what you dont want to live... a lie. When you deal with others who will invariably come along in the same situation of infidelity you were in, you will have to lie to protect. When you give advice to your kids and friends, or see something on TV that has infidelity related to it, you will be reminded you are carrying a secret and living a lie. I feel it walking down the street. Every day. It is a huge burden 3 years later. Everywhere I turn I am faced with the fact we live a lie. When our kids have issues with their bf or GF We are confronted with the fact we are living a lie. How do our kids explain that "we do things or believe things in our family because mom did X?"

Trust me, full exposure is initially more painful and embarassing, but in the long run is more beneficial. It's open, honest and reliable.

Peace without truth will not last.

Our purpose is to help you implement the MB concepts.
If that is not what you want, say so now.

Worth every minute.... I will suggest my WW watch as well. The thing is, we knew these things. We took the HNHN study at church. We took the 5 LL course as well. We went to FL weekend...... I wish those coarses would have talked more about the prevention of affairs. Deep down I sensed something, but could not pin point it and had no evidense. Had I used radical honesty, I would have asked every time I got a sense something was wrong. Lesson #1 complete. I tell her everything now.

Keep these post coming. I'm only 6 weeks into what seems to be a life long struggle.

Tex:

Maybe you'll find comfort in my story here.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2511215&page=1

Its a short 78 pages. You'll see the level of deception that can be done to someone and yet the marriage can survive.

Ok, once you read, you'll see my FWW was remorseful and begged for forgiveness upon dday which is not always the case.

But, the emotions are standard as are the steps to recovery.

You'll see on many occasions I was ready to walk and other times when i couldnt see myself without her. In hindsight, its a study in schizophrenia (sp?), really. Kidding.

All the fine folks giving you the business today were there for me.

Its now the story of my life. "How My Marriage Got Great" by mss

aw shucks maw!

No. it won't be a lifelong struggle. It will be lifelong work, but it gets easier the more you practice it.

CV

I am confused ... did you come here to hear the advice of people who have seen this situation many times, or to share your expertise? How many of these situations have you seen?

I came for advice and to vent with people who have been through what I am going through. I have started to reconcider telling OMW, my closest friends, and even my 14 year old. I struggle with my 10 and 6 year old. How will they ever recover from what their mommy did? They barely understand arguments over where to eat, I can't imagine they would comprehend the value of the affair. What if they then tell their friends, isn't that going to lead to more pain for them as well? I will take some time to conceder my options. Don't give up on me. I have to have a long talk with therapist as well. She has a need to know theory, and doesn't think anyone needs to know, yet.

That's the beauty of this place, we ain't going nowhere unless you give up and try "the Texas Two Step" method to marriage recovery. Even then we'll kick yourbutt.

We can tell you now that the therapist is a waste of time on most occasions. 9 out of 10 times they�ll tell you not to expose.

Exposure kills affairs. OMW is your greatest ally in making sure that your WW and the OM never speak again. The therapist, however, will likely disagree and will certainly disagree on telling the kids.

The kids should know why there is so much friction and tension in the house. I�m telling you as a man who was an adult child when his parents went through this problem. My brother, however, was 12. He didn�t know at first why things were so crappy and thought he was going crazy about some things. He witnessed the secret phone calls, and weird behavior and was lied to by my dad about what he was up to.

Knowing the truth was liberating. Odds are high your older kids are already aware something is wrong.

I have to find OMW again.....like I may have mentioned before.... I destroyed everything that had any association with him....WW through away bag, clothes and oil she bought for him. We burned all letters, deleted all numbers in phones, and FB. OMW is very secretive, so she is not easy to find.....FB will help.... OM has no FB or email accounts. He does have a Linkin account, which I have seen. It's how I know where he works. In my periods of rage, I dream of going there and exposing him to his co-workers. He is the manager or something.

Thanks again for the support and advice. Keep them coming. I have so many issues to overcome.

Your 10 and six year old can be told what Wolf Pack Girl told her children around that age:"Mommy lied to daddy and did something really bad". It's age appropriate. It lets them in the loop and is exposure without crudeness.

CV

Married couples who are actually working the MB concept of POJA would NEVER ARGUE about something as mundane as "where to eat".

You are not schooled in the majority of the MB concepts.
This much is evident.

You have a bad therapist, Sir. Any "therapist" who believes that the spouse of man does not have a "need to know" her spouse has had an affair is not qualified to counsel you in the recovery from infidelity. This therapist has given you bad advice. Dr Harley is a credentialed, licensed clinical psychologist with 40 years experience saving marriages. He knows what he is doing.

My suggestion would be to print up Dr Harley's article titled When to Expose and take it your "therapist" so she can learn.

Your kids are not little morons who cannot handle truth. Kids can deal with the truth, they cannot deal with lies. Any child over the age of 4 should be told the truth. Telling them lies does not make them secure and safe, it makes them insecure and confused. And it is also very bad for your wife to whitewash her crimes. Not telling your kids helps NO ONE. NO ONE.

Affairs thrive on secrecy, so exposing it is like chemotherapy to cancer.

And be sure and say WHAT the "something really bad" is or you will just confuse the hell out of them. Tell them she had an adulterous affair , with WHOM, and explain WHY adultery is bad. It is very important to be very accurate and even more important to give them moral guidance.

I understood the concept of adultery as young as FOUR. Children over FOUR get it, so you shouldn't worry about telling a six and ten year old. They understand what you mean. Just don't make the mistake of glossing over the morality of it all. That is the parents job.

As far as brutal honesty goes, should I be told every time she thinks of him? I know she does.... She told me last week, " I think of him often and will for a very long time....I love him."'. She also told me that she believes if she admitts she doesn't love him, then she is just another whore. I haven't called her that, those are her words..

How brutal is brutal??

Radical honesty does not mean you share every thought. The more she speaks about loser boy, the more she will be triggered. And the longer you will take to recover.

I would point out that radical honesty DOES NOT APPLY to snooping tactics after a spouse has had an affair.

So when I say things like "you are still holding on to him" and "how many times did you think of him today" I am damaging her recovery from him?

Explain the snooping aspect? I am home alone during the day, and I feel like looking in every drawer, every photo file on the computer....I don't want to look, but I feel compelled... Last week while looking for a photo of us on vacation last January,I found a photo of OM's name written in the sand....there were lots of names as well, but not mine....when confronted, she said she had forgotten she even took it. I told her it hit me like they had had sex right there on the beach....I must have been swimming at the time. Snooping seems to be the only way I can be assured there is nothing left inside our home.

Right. Once you have all the truth, it should not be discussed again.


Another good idea is to place a keylogger on her computer. That will help reassure you that you she is being faithful. A good keylogger is eblaster [will email reports] or spectorpro if you will have daily access to her computer. You should know everything she does when you are not looking.

Originally Posted By: TexasTwoStep
So when I say things like "you are still holding on to him" and "how many times did you think of him today" I am damaging her recovery from him?


I find myself getting frustrated that she won't let go of him.....I guess I am saying and doing things to prevent or slow her recovery. I will stop asking how often she thinks of him or if certain things like songs or a restaurant they ate at remind her of him. He has control of me, no matter how far away he is, he has me beaten. I told her once I was competing against someone I could not stand up to, bc he is a dream, a never was and a fantasy. She only saw him 4-5 times over the 9 months, who did she fall that far that fast??

When I get frustrated, I say mean and hurtful things. I know I must stop, and i apologize soon afterwards. Maybe I am the reason she doesn't come out of the fog..... Is 6 weeks long enough to come out of the fog?? I have so many questions. Thanks for all the help.

Do WS have a place they can post as well, or would it be good if I could talk her into starting her own thread? I don't know if she will, but if she could read what other WS have to say, maybe it would help her. If you know of a thread like this, let me know....

I completely understand and sympathize with you! But I promise you that you only prolong your suffering when you keep bringing it up. It also makes your company unpleasant.

A big part of the reason she is still in the fog is that her affair has been kept secret. Once you tell the OMW, I think you will see this change because it will be a splash of reality.

I would also put a keylogger on her computer and make sure she is not looking at his facebook page or in email contact. Have you checked her facebook account? Is the OM on facebook? Becuase if he is, that will keep her in the fog.

I would not send her here at this time, TTS. If she is foggy, she is going to get hammered with 2x4s, from former waywards and BS's alike. You might want to wait until you are truly in recovery. I would expose the affair to the OMW and also get a keylogger on her computer. That will help things along quite a bit and in a couple of weeks she might be at a point where she is unfogged.

Another important thing, TTS, is that most marriages do not recover from affairs. They might stay together, but they are a crippled version of the pre-affair marriage. I would follow Dr Harleys plan to restore the love in your marriage. It really does work, and the measure of success is not just staying together, but actually falling in love again.

Here is his plan:

You said it before...OM is a dream, a fantasy. No one can compete with lalaland and you shouldn't try to.

Sorry you are here TTS. Six weeks is not long...not sure what that therapist is saying/doing either...that may be working against you too. Don't feel guilty about snooping. You have reason to. Did you find OMW?

The OM does not have FB or email. OM and OMW are virtually invisible people. They live 300 miles away, so random contact is not an issue. When she found him in September, he was on FB. He got off shortly afterwards, I suspect OMW watched his account. They only communicated when he would call or text her. Generally when he was at lunch or on a business trip. Once I ended it, I deleted all references of him from the computer, wiped out any history of him from FB. The only FB I could find was of OMW, but now it's gone....I have his #, I had my WS delete the number from her phone, ( which was under another name, a GF of hers who knew and contributed to the affair, more on that twist later ).... She didn't know I found the # on the phone when I was snooping, and I told therapist, therapist asked her in session, and asked if she would delete it. She did. My guess is she has it memorized, but the symbolism was there.

My guess is if I went to their hometown, I could find them, don't know, and not planning on it. WS says she doesn't know any address, only communication was by cell phone. Which I used to find his number, not smart criminals I'm working with.... Right now, I will focus on us. In my next session I will ask more about different people they have in common.

He was a HS friend, they never dated.....an almost was and what could have been affair. She said and he confirmed in text, they had no plans to run off together....I don't know the reason or if there is a reason other than selfishness to do what they did, but it is over. The next time I am in the area, I'm going by to get a phone book and check. Past that, I don't know how to find them except hire a PI.....which I've thought of doing.

OM and OMW are on marriage # 2.... His ended with Plan D, hers ended in a tragic car accident. They have 3 children, 2 hers, 1 together. I don't know ages. WS told me this. WS says they talked about the families a lot and how each was "happy" with most of their marriages, and both BS's were good people. He confirmed she had called me a good person in the text messages I sent while acting as my WS. He was tucking tail and running away as fast as possible.....to me he is a coward. I told my WS that about two weeks in when I asked if he had contacted her. She said NO, I said he is a coward and never really loved you, he used you and ran at the first sign of danger. She confirmed through her bestie that she had thought he would have called or sent a text to say something.....but he hasn't. Her cell phone log is clean.

As for her Best Friend.....she is one messed up person. A co-dependent in the worst way. My WS confided in her that she had spoken to and seen OM once....she told BF that OM made her feel happy and special. BF then wrote OM a letter, thanking him for making WS feel better about herself, she said WS was as happy as she had ever seen her and on and on.... WS kept that letter, it was in with hers to him. She said she never intended to give them to him. WS likes to keep souvenirs from places she goes, so she kept the room keys, the movie tickets and the letters. Her mistake, bc I found them. I called BF and told her what she had done was not the actions of a true friend and that the only reason WS even stayed friends with BF was bc she was a weak person who could be manipulated. WS and BF do not talk much now, I would like that to stop as well.

I told you more details would come....there are so many aspects of the story I don't know if I will be able to get the all out. But one by one I will try. Not a new story I'm sure, just a different book cover.

Thanks BR...

Time is now measured from D-Day and every story starts or ends there. I know 6 weeks doesn't seem like a long time looking in, but from inside the storm it feels like a life time. I told her just the other day, I've forgotten what it feels like not to have the knot in my stomach or pain in my heart. I want to remember, but can't. I want to forget this pain, but can't. It come back like a thief in the night to rob me of my joy and my peace.

Just an FYI, I've lost almost 20 lbs, most in the first three weeks. I eat, but am still losing weight. I sleep about 5 hours a night with the help of Advil PM or a stiff drink, never together... Anyone else's body do this after D-Day?

Keep in mind you have a moral obligation to inform the OMW of this affair. That is not something that can be put off. Not telling her makes you an accessory to the crime and is very cruel. You need to also pick up the phone and inform your wife's victim. You owe that to her and your marriage.

You are experiencing what some call the lovely Infidelity Diet. It is rough and exhausting. The mental, emotional, and spiritual are even rougher. You are quite normal TTS...as crappy as that sounds you are.

You know you can search property tax records along with other public info online. You don't need to get a phone book in hand...you can get a phone number on the internet. You may have to cross reference some info depending on what you find but public records are a good source. Do you know his employer or other piece of vital info?

She got back from concert.... She was tired, it was late, but we didn't talk. She went straight to bed. I know she is thinking of him. It kills me inside to know the mother of my children is in love with another man. I know there is hope, but the pain she has caused me is so great. How do we ever recover??

Exposure to OMW will pull her back to reality and kills the fantasy she has right now.

You have a separate leisure life? Why didn't you go with her?

She went with my sister in law and a couple of girl friends. Kieth Urban concert. I don't care for concerts much, and this was planned along time ago.

We do things together, like travel, visit historical places, shop.....kids things take a lot of time as well. We were heavily involved in church up until last fall....wonder why that slowed?? We are back at church and planning more trips. We spend a lot of time together, just maybe not enough alone time.

Tex, I've been reading your sitch and I've got to jump in, here.

Your compulsion to snoop is your mind's way of making sure you are safe. It is healthy to do so. You need to snoop for as long as it takes in order to feel safe. I am about 2-1/2 years out from D-Day and in a fully recovered M. I still occasionally snoop. It makes me feel safe.

There is no place for secrets in a marriage. My FWH welcomes my snooping because he is proud to know that I'll find nothing and will feel safe.

And I've got to address this avoidance business you're pulling as far as letting that poor woman know what her hound-dog husband is capable of. I'll do that in another post.

Yup I lost 10 pounds in the first week and needed help for sleep.

Understand this: the OM is now a part of her history. You can't make him go away from her memories. You can help her distance herself from those memories by not talking to her about them.
When you ask her how many times she's thought of him in a day, you just handed her another time to think about him.

You can also help her memory of him become a bad taste in her mouth by working with her to recover from the A. That means you need to go forward with recovery, not idle yourselves in the past.

I wished I could develop a potion for my H to drink to make the memories of the OW disappear. Sadly, I couldn't come up with one. But working through recovery helped me come to terms with his memories of her, and helped him realize that there are no good memories of that time. Only bad ones.

What Mel said.

Tex, the OWH in my sitch knew about me for months before I found out. He and his WW would have heated discussions about the fact that she and my H were 'having drinks' that I didn't know about. To this day it outrages me that people I didn't even know were discussing me and my marriage, and had knowledge of a huge danger to my marital life but didn't feel I needed to know. They chose to control my life without my knowledge.

Understand what has happened to you: this man molested your marriage. He molested his own marriage. You are a victim of his molestation. His wife is a victim of his molestation. She has the right to know the reality of her marital life. Helping OM keep this nasty secret from this poor woman is aiding and abetting him in his crime.

Even worse? Without exposure, he is free to molest other marriages, and he will.

Tex,

Glad youre drinking the cool-aid of MB. Its the best way to get her back.

I lost 20 pounds in a 6 weeks and sorry to say since Ive turned some corners in recovery, I put back about half of it.

Anyway, have a good weekend. Spend quality time with the Mrs. Its coming along nicely.

Just stay focused. Eye on the prize. It may be hard to see it now but she needs to get out of the dark first.

I like to maintain radio silence over the weekends to focus on being with my wife and kids and let the emotional chips fall where they may. Then on Mondays Id come back here to report happenings and feelings and get my actions critiqued by the vets.

I felt after I read the books and material within the site here, I was ready to released to the wild.

Whatever is best for you, though.

Take care,

mss

Thanks Mike,

I asked her to dinner and shopping tonight....two things I know she loves. I also wanted to sit down and have a good soul cleansing talk about how we feel about each other....she says that will only hurt me now. I guessni will put that talk off for now.

She is still in the fog....6 weeks so far. How long did your WS fog last? She still has strong feelings for him. At what point do I give up....NEVER I say. She will de-fog at some point and I want to be here when that happens. I love her, I miss the women I married. Hopefully we can start the recovery soon. Where can I learn more about Plan A, B,C ( if there is one ) and D...... I've looked in articles, but haven't found them yet. I'm hoping someone can give me a quick overview or a link to find them.

Have a good weekend MSS.. Talk to you Monday.

Lost 30 pounds in 6 weeks since D-Day......STILL need meds to sleep.

Please stop doing this...you might as well stab yourself in the chest.

WWs typically stay fogged out longer than WHs...I say TYPICALLY because women are usually more emotionally withdrawn from their spouse when they enter into an A and women are usually more emotionally caught up in an OM than a WH is caught up with a OW. There are a lot more men that chuck an OP under the bus than women. You don't want Plan C...that's Plan Confusion where you have no plan at all.

I'll look for links to Plan A and B but hopefully quick draw ML or others with copy and paste before I can blink.

Plan A

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...t&Number=2296184&nt=8&page=1

Plan A & B

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

You should be in Plan A now.

Ill defer to other vets about how long their fogs lasted. As I have said a zillion times, Im a lucky one in that upon dday, FWW's fog was lifted. She was living in a self imposed prison with no padlocks and she could have left at any point.

I wont bore you with details and you certainly can read my thread.

What helped me was my wife freaking hates OM, hates. He did secretly video them together and cheated on my wife with a another girl who he video'd too. Think about that: my wife was used to 2x OMW and my wife was being 2x. How belittling is that? Her humiliation is on a grand scale. I argue'd there was little to no "love" at any point.

Yes, it makes my wife look cheap and sorry to say prostitute-like for staying with him to keep a meaningless job and avoid real life. And, she used the words above first upon our post dday discussions. Theres no pride here.

I said it earlier, I felt sorry for her.

We found ground to build on with these issues and more.

I told her day 1 though, if she loves him and after all the years they were together, lets save legal fees and agree to split. Im not going to stay with her if her happiness was being someone;s side babe or one of his side babes.

Anyway, Im not the best to ask about fogginess.

I got lucky.

mss

Tex, I've seen no response from you regarding informing OM's wife of this affair. When are you going to do this? Do you not understand the importance of letting her know?

I do know this, Tex, you cant worry about fog until the above is accomplished.

Six friggin' weeks since you found out and OMW has not been informed? I thought this was done already.

Get with it, man.

This is numero uno TO DO upon dday. Think about the signal this is sending your wife and OM for these six weeks.

MB 101 stuff here.

Go back and read the last 11 pages here.

Dont do anymore posting until you let OMW know. Seriously, you need accomplish A before you get to B. B is all the how to's and emotional stuff you keep asking about. You'll get all the help for that too, but not before you do you know what.

mike

Plan A and B are MB plans.

Plan C is "your" plan, but it is referred to here as a joke since it never works.

Plan D is divorce.

This affair may of never ended.

It did at the leaast restart because exposure was never done after the first time ten years ago.

This affair will continue because you will not expose now.

This afair will continue because you think that 300 miles is far enough to keep WW and the OM apart. News Flash, 300 miles has not stopped them from doing it.

You need to not tell WW that you are checking up on her. She now knows to get a pay as you go phone. No bills.

You need to hide a GPS, with real time, on her car.

You need to install a key logger.

You need to not tell WW that you have done these things.

You need to have WW go NC with all the people that helped here carry on her affair. They are not friends of the marriage. And are your enemies.

Tex,

Where are you, friend?

Update us. We are pulling for you.

We got next steps ready after you get thru the first step.

Dont give up, this is only the first inning in what is a long game.

mss

She will de-fog at some point and I want to be here when that happens.

Dream on, T2S!

Toilets do not scrub themselves. Automobile engines do not change their own oil. WWs do not "de-fog" on their own.

The common thread to those examples is that at some point someone must decide to do the dirty work that must be done to achieve the desired result. The market being supreme, "Merry Maids" and "Jiffy Change" were founded to handle those tasks for the squeemish. We await the critical mass of BSs to support the establishment of "Expose-R-Us", but until that happens, it's a task that each BS must perform on his own.

"Expose-R-Us"?

I bet there is money in that, NG.

"Hello, Mrs. Phil Andering Husband, this is Expose R Us's dept of Spousal Enlightenent. We are saddened to inform you that Phil has not been at lot of late night meetings and that trip to the Capitol for a meeting was a lie. He has been meeting up with Mrs. B. Trayed Spouse on many occasions and in the midst of an affair. Sorry for the bad news."

Can we make money with this. Franchise opportunities.

Talk about turning a pile of poo into gold!!

mike

I know I'm not the paragon of following MB principles, but please heed this advice from a man (me) who hemmed and hawed, and waited to expose, not wanting to believe the vets on this forum.

Expose.

Expose.

The A will not end, and there is no hope to restore the marriage, until this is done.

I exposed in March....the A was killed....we're in recovery.

Please listen to these guys, and do it.

God Bless.

Never destroy evidence or give it to WW. You may need it in court.

I lost 20+ pounds. One night I ate a grape for dinner.

Hit the gym. Hit a heavy bag. Look your best with your new bod.

Expose to OMW now! And his parents while you're at it. I often regret not exposing in more of a nuclear fashion, and look at me... Divorced.

I lost weight as well. Food lost its flavor and I had to remind myself to eat.

I forced myself to do so.

What you're going through is normal, but you will have to expose this to OM's W for you to truly recover in any way.

Not only that, but doing so will expose the fact that they are still in contact, since he'll have to let your WW know.

Also, be prepared to have the OM's W not believe you and give her some evidence.

After long discussions with WW, she admitted this had been a EA for 14 months, b4 they met and it became a PA. She gave me full details ( I hope this time ) even admitting that the OMW found them last Nov. And tried to call me. OMW only got to WW, and didn't go any further. My WW had blocked her from finding me on FB. I found that block and removed it. I am now tring to make contact with her. Thanks for pushing me to telling OMW. She had threatened to leave in Nov. if any other communication was made. She is in for a huge shock. Not only did they communicate, they had sex on at least two occasions.
WW does not want to leave our marriage and wants to work on us. She said she knew it was wrong but could not or did not want to stop. I pray it has stopped now.

This will be the hardest day so far.

Stay tuned.

This. This is why it is so critical to expose the A to the other spouse. Do you see where exposure could have ended this so much sooner?

Make sure you completely answer any questions she has about the A - I'm sure her WH will trickle-truth her if he thinks he can get away with it.

Remind me - has your WW written an NC letter?

She hasn't because I didn't think I could get it to him. Should she anyway? She has said she wouldn't, I know how much that is worth.

I see now, had she called me in Nov. We could have ended this a an EA.

I will tell her everything I know, I have details for the past 9 months.

Tex, glad to see you are here updating us but you need to get aggressive here. There has to be a million ways to get a message to OM nowadays. Its not up to your wife if a NC letter goes out, its when and after OMW is in the know, its when.

The next thing we want to hear is "made contact with OMW and nows she knows all I do".

At this point, today is the best day to do it.

Tex, glad to see you are here updating us but you need to get aggressive here. There has to be a million ways to get a message to OM nowadays. Its not up to your wife if a NC letter goes out, its when and after OMW is in the know, its when.

The next thing we want to hear is "made contact with OMW and nows she knows all I do".

At this point, today is the best day to do it.

Ill say that again.

Sorry, double post.

Why is she refusing to write the letter?

A No Contact letter serves a significant purposes:
It is an act of reassurance and commitment for YOU.
It is an act of finality for the affair partners - the ending is in writing.
It is an act of accountability for your WW as a way of beginning to rebuild her personal integrity.

The letter should be in her handwriting. You need to read it, approve the wording, and mail it. (Certified, to confirm that he got it.)

This is a very small act of compensation that your WW should gladly supply you if she is serious about saving her M. Why is she balking at writing this?

She isn't balking at writing letter. Are there formats or sample letters I could see? I want her to write one. I am out of town for the next two days, but she confessed last night, while I was out of town. If I could get a letter to view, it would be great.

Still working on us..... Finding out it was 2 years wasn't as hard as D-Day....it is liberating to know that everything is coming out.

I doubt that you've heard everything. Waywards are good are trickle truth. Brace yourself for more.

Here's a sample no contact letter:

Hound Dog Other Man:
I want you to know that out of respect and love for TexasTwoStep and my family, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk with you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that Tex did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay Tex for the pain I have caused him, I will do my best to become the wife he has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything ever again to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me or my family. Tex is going to know everything. I will tell him if you contact me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.
Sincerely,
Tex's Hopefully Repentent Wayward Wife

Edit in your names. Her handwriting. You mail it certified mail. She can go with you to the post office.

You will be riding high in the saddle in her eyes, Tex. Bravo to you for your commitment to your marriage!

But I don't like this business of you being out of town overnight, and not with her.

Tex,

Hard to argue the benefits TO YOU of exposure and the NC letter.

I get chills just thinking how much this makes you look good to everyone involved. And tough. And more than anything that youre not f-&^*%* around with this.

Dilly-dallying with these 2 components and not getting them done immediately says the opposite.

Now, again, get with it man.

mike

You need concrete proof of the A being done. Prayer, with due respect, wont do it. You must persue it to put your fears to bed. She admitted it, good. She is trickle-truthing with the details, bad.

SHE needs to be making things right with you.

Crushing you mentally cannot happen again or perhaps continue to happen. Even before I got SAA and learned a bit of MB technique, I tooks steps to make sure I wouldnt be destroyed again. She sat there as I laid out rules she is to follow or else she's out. I know my wife had no interest in OM which is a lucky thing for me. But, do you really know? I took steps to make sure.

You need this comfort.

Good job, TTS. Do you see now why it is so important to contact the OP's spouse and stay in touch? And I am sorry that you confirmed it was physical. It was obvious to us, but you needed to know the truth.

Please get in touch with the OMW ASAP before her H finds out you are trying and tries to block you.

She will downplay the amount of times they got together. Make sure you contact OMW. Find her and communicate with her.

Tex,

What's new buddy?

mike

Weekend trip with family, things went well.

No contact letter is written, but not sent. I called OM's phone, he has changed numbers inside his company. I plan on getting his new number. I watch cell phone records for any calls to that area code.

Its been 2 months since D-Day, and almost 3 months since they have seen each other.....her fog seems to be lifting and she is much more talkative with me.

I still have moments where I think of them together and get angry or sick felling. I don't know how long this will last, but I hope not much longer. We have not had sex since D-Day, and don't know when I will be ready.

Hi TTS! How about the OMW? Have you made contact with her yet?

And why are you trying to contact the OM?

I can't find OW, but would like to torment the OM while I find her. She is off FB. As stated in earlier post, they are very hard to find. Both cell #'s have changed.

What happens if I can't find her to tell her? What if he told her...?

I know where he works....but not the OW. My next trip to the area, I may pay him a visit.

My WW and I are working on reconciliation, and are seeing a counselor.

I would certainly not call the OM if contact has ended. Rather, I would make an effort to find her. Have you tried directory assistance? What about the OM's home phone #? Have you called his house to speak to his wife?

They have no home phone. I will try to find out from his office. Maybe someone there will share. I only want him to know I am still out here watching him...... Imwould like him to look over his shoulder for a long time.

How long should I continue to look? Isn't that just keeping me tied to them? I would love to just cut ties and move forward?

Did you unblock the OMW from your facebook? Can you contact her on facebook? Does the OM have you blocked on her facebook? Can you log out and go on and see if you can find her?

Why not???? Send it to his job if you have to and make sure that YOU are the one who mails it.

You still need to track down his wife. Can you hire a PI?

Tex-

Good to hear from you again.

Im learning this is a process doomed with pitfalls and emotional highs and lows.

Stay steady and consider running some of your ideas and decisions by the vets here first as some of them will be way off line and can impact your recovery.

And in my opinion, chasing OM to give him the business is giving him undue attention. He is pond scum and worthy of ducks crapping on him. Thats it. Not worth the energy of persuing to give him the business.

Focus on contacting his wife and you'll then have little to worry about him. Protect your wife from him and again you'll rest easier.

Glad you are back and things may be easing for the 2 of you.

mss

CV

I would advise against this, not matter how tempting it may be. It will trigger you and set back recovery. You will need to let OM go as much as your W does. Continued contact for either of you after the NC letter is sent should be avoided at all costs.

CV

CV,
Just read your entire story. You and I react in similar. I don't know if it's the Irish in me. I doubt I will make any contact with OM unless it is needed. We are both committed to recovery.

You mentioned you W also post. What is her Name on MB?

One quick one.....SF? I assume S is sex, what is F?

Holy cow! You read the entire thing?!?!

Yes the Irish temper is something isn't it? Also the need for payback. SF is sexual fulfillment. Keep working the plan. Don't just write out the extra-ordinary precautions and table them. Go back and read them until they are memorized and a part of both of you. Learn the new habits til they are second nature.

Yes she posts occasionally and will respond when someone asks questions. Her screen name is grace4me.

CV

CV,

Did you read SAA? Or have you just picked up on all the MB steps on this site? I have read most of the articles and stories, plus the advice from everyone here. Do I need to read the book?

I wish for revenge, I hope he gets his. His wife is going to cut off his @&$?!, she is furious.

Where do we go from here.

Step 1: Exposure
Step 2: NC letter,
Step 3: ??

We haven't separated and both of us want to work this out. Our counselor says we are doing the right things, and thinks we will work through this. She is a very matter of fact lady and says I am doing better than she expected after our first meeting.

Suggestions??

Read SAA - I have read it at least ten times. It will be very helpful.

This will be a recovery handbook for you. Get the book. You can write in the margins, highlight important thoughts and points you want to discuss with your WW and keep it on your nightstand for handy reference when you're not around the computer.

Do the first two. Refresh my memory... Have you both done the EN questionnaires? Do those. Make sure you both write out EP's for both of yours protection. This is a good start. Willingness for both of you to work means HOPE!

Also, I am going to suggest one more thing that I haven't seen many here advise.

Don't either of you abandon your marital bed. Even if there is no sexual fulfillment. Make it a safe place for you two to sit and talk and be friends. It needs to be your place where you can go and cry and be comforted. Don't slide into bed with W unless you can both at least be friendly there.

This was important for me and Grace. It was our safe spot. Where she could go every night and put her head on my chest and be comforted (weird but true) and I could take comfort in her presence with me. Where we could fall asleep in each others arms and feel safe. No arguing in bed.

CV,

Thanks. We will take the EN questionnaire. What is EP?

We have not left the bed. It is where we sit and talk, cry and sleep. We don't touch much yet, and there has been no sexual touching.

Hope is what I cling to.

I have to chime in here... This was a really important thing that we did. Early on CV and I would stay up very late "talking" about our problems. The later it got the more irrational we both became and we would take it to our bed...we had little peace. Making the decision to keep our bed a place of peace gave us a refuge, especially me. Having the opportunity to feel safe and wanted each night when I climbed into bed made it easier to learn to trust again and to be O@H.

EP= extraordinary precautions. It is a list that she and you will write to each other. They define your boundaries.

For example:

1)I will not talk to other men or women without my spouse present or unless it is strictly work business

2) I will not be alone with a person of the opposite sex

3) I will account for my time in ____ increments.


hopefully, someone will come along and post a sample for EP's. In the meantime, if you are not comfortable with sexual contact, do touch the woman, tex. She needs a tender hand and so do you. Touch her gently on the arm, the face or back. Let her know that you care. Contact says a lot.

Thanks CV and Grace....

You two are excellent examples for the rest of us.

Grace, how long did it take for you to join group? I want to invite my WW to this forum. Keep the advice coming.

We are 2 months since DDay, and my anger is lowering. I do love her, I just don't understand why? And maybe I never will. Accepting the past is hard, not reminding myself of dates and places is hard. This is the hardest time of my life.....I believe she loves me, she says she does. She lost her attraction to me, bc of my lack of meeting her EN. I didn't know I wasn't, she didn't tell me I wasn't. She feel into love with an old friend, and the rest is history. 18 years of marriage, and she says she hasn't been attracted to me for a very long time.

I'll let G answer for herself, but do want to talk about remembering.

It is hard. It will honestly take months and months to get past. It is a totally suck period of life where you wish you were anywhere but on earth.

Took me a while to figure out why I still love my wife. Actually, that's wrong. I knew but was afraid to admit it...

I loved her for all the same reasons I did before. I was just hurt and protective and didn't want to admit that I still liked the person that crushed me, that I found her charming, funny, sexy, interesting and smart.

Trust had to be rebuilt before I could admit that.

Attraction... It's like a water faucet i.m.o.... Hit those EN's and the spigot will go on full blast.

And she i really doubt she's in love with OM... Fog-babble...

Thanks again CV,

Just knowing it will take months is encouraging. I hate the unknown. I appreciate everyone here who has offered support. This is suck period of life. Early on I told her it would have been easier to find out she had died. She took that to mean I wished her dead. We are still working on that conversation.

Working the plan, one step at a time. Trying to stay positive...

Of course you would have, that isn't all that strange.

�One should rather die than be betrayed. There is no deceit in death. It delivers precisely what it has promised. Betrayal, though ... betrayal is the willful slaughter of hope.�

Infidelity is one of the most emotionally and mentally painful things a person can experience in life (and both emotional and mental pain can manifest physically).

Don't kid yourself, TTS. You have experienced a loss, and you are going to grieve that loss.

HHH,

Is has been a horrible 2 months. I have grieved, I have lost the one thing I valued most, her love. We are working on the repair, but time seems to be my worst enemy.

Where did you get that quote? Is it in SAA?

This forum has been a huge help, giving me a place to ask questions and receive advice from those who have lived through my pain.

Thanks again to everyone. I especially like hearing from other FWW and how they overcame the fog and addiction of the OM. This is her struggle. I want to help her, but I seem to be going overboard with my acts of kindness. She says I haven't done things like this in a very long time. I hope she will come to see I do them bc I love her and want to win her heart back. I won't give up until she walks, and she says she isn't going to leave. She doesn't want to break up the family.

One day at a time.....my AD seem to be working, but they don't erase the memories. But sleep has improved, eating more now as well.

Grace,

How long was it b4 you joined this forum, did you read all the books too? I would like my WW to read these post, but she is still in fog. Don't know how she would react. I love her and want to help her. I know I can't "fix" her, but I can be there to show her where to get the help.

What are your thoughts?

No, that one isn't in SAA. I'll look for the author again and let you know.

It just sticks so well.

Yeah there is a light at the end of the tunnel even if it seems far off. I thought at some points early on that It would be that way forever. Course I was running with my eyes half shut if you know what I mean.

We learned the hard way that on of the important parts of recovery is choosing our words. We can't use language loosely anymore because the A left it open to misinterpretation nearly all the time.

A simple "I have always loved you" became "Oh you mean like a brother or something, not like your husband" and we learned that precision in speech was a key element, as well as not reading into simple statements.

CV

Hi Tex,

I joined the forum a couple of weeks after CV did. Of course you need to remember it was almost 3 years after Dday, so my outlook coming into it was a bit different than most WW. If Mrs. Tex does join the list she will need to be ready to take some tough criticism.

I'm not sure how helpful my story may be to you, but I didn't have what everyone calls "fog". What I did struggle with was learning to tell the truth. I never once missed OM or worried about him. I was never tempted to contact him and the few times he attempted to contact me I told CV immediately. I gladly burned or through away everything I had that he had given me or that reminded CV or myself of OM.

My BIG issue was that I had become a habitual liar. Not because of my infidelity, but it had started years before. I didn't even know answers to many of the questions CV had because I had lied so much that I didn't know the truth. Now I keep what I call my "log book". It's not a diary, it's really just a little notebook that I divided into sections and keep my own ideas and notes to myself in. I have a section on lying, one on anger, one on trust and one on restitution. I am brutally honest and I make a point to pull no punches with myself.

What is it that you mean by "fog" when you're talking about Mrs. Tex? Every WW is different.

I did read the books and I found them very helpful. I think we gained a lot from doing the questionnaires.

I know you're probably completely exhausted, but be patient and firm. It will pay off.

Thanks Grace.

I will show her the forum and see if she is willing to join. I won't push her.

I have been making notes daily on how I feel during the day. She has read some of those notes, so she knows the pain I am in. She knows my fears and my wants. We talk, but I have stopped asking about OM and PA. We mainly talk about feelings and the future. Plan trips and talk about the kids.

I want this time to move faster.....men usually move past pain faster than women.

Holding on to Hope.

Tex,

Can you give us a current update/overview on the status of things? How is she doing now? Has she shared what she's thinking and feeling?

How about you?

This was a long term affair. It will take time. But time is actually on your side. the longer she goes no contact the better you two will be.

Some recoveries are faster than others. I've seen it in my short time here. MSS and others moved a lot faster than others... Some seem to crawl and make baby steps.Don't be discouraged.

You may have one of those experiences where you wake up one morning and her fog has lifted and real work can start.

Do encourage her to be here. We'd love to help her along and help her push through this fog.


CV



Make sure you are meeting those EN's

Tex-

A luke warm recovery is not a recovery. And a recovery is false if exposure is not made to OMW and others.

You are setting yourself up for more heartache.

You will get more advice on how to chip away at the fog from a lot of other people as soon as they know they are not wasting time. And its a waste of time if exposure has NOT be made to OMW. CV and his wife's advice is precious only if YOUR wife's OMW is made aware of his actions. Otherwise its stuff thats good to know, and i was glad to understand their recovery path, but ultimately first things first.

You have to know this.

MSS,

OMW knows. My WW is writing the letter. I will send it to his work address. We don't know his address, and I don't want to keep digging into this to find it. I want no more details. We are working towards recovery, and she has been open with me about what happened. I've checked everything, and it all checks out.

The only detail I would like to see is what is happening with OM and OMW....she hasn't changed her FB picture.

This is not a luke warm recovery, but as I've read, I can't push or over due it. It will take time.

I look forward to any advice from those who are here. I live day by day, hoping the pain dies down.

Holding onto Hope.....!

this was my first sign of real trouble in paradise with OM#2. She had changed his passwords (like I did on everything but her one email account {whole nother story}) and her myspace pic just stayed the same. I vetted an apology to her by my wife for everything she caused the OMW. the pic changed briefly. We didn't have an address by that time either. We sent it to OM's sister's address which I found. Checked a year later and it was the same and her last login was the same. Did some snooping and found out they divorced.


Long rant just to say that sometimes even when we think OM got better than he deserved, we don't always know, the grass ain't always greener.

CV

CV,
When you found out OM#2 had divorced, did you fear he would return to and contact Grace? That is a fear of mine...... It is so new, I'm afraid he will come back and promise the moon and her fogged mind will think the grass would be greener?

Just a question??

I would think she would change pic as soon as possible, but maybe she has withdrawn from FB.

CV,

It sucks knowing that once the trust was broken, it can never really be put back together completely. It is one of those pains we will carry forever.

I trust her that she believes there is more to stay for than to leave for.... I'm trying to avoid LB's and meet all her EN's. It is actually exciting right now making her LB fill up.

I will update with any new information.

Thanks for all the advice and support.

Keep us updated. We're prayin for ya

Thanks CV.

I'm working on forgiving her. I've never had to forgive someone for something so painful or personal. Forgetting I know is out, and I don't want to just dismiss the forgiveness part as a simple act of saying "I forgive you". I love what you did with the washing/cleaning....but I don't think my WW is up for that at this point.
How long after D Day were you able to tell yourself you had forgiven Grace. Do you still find yourself forgiving her. Do the two of you still discuss the PA?

I made notes early on, for my benefit, on what I CAN NOT say to her. I can not use the AF as a weapon, I can not say I get to do something bc of some sort or payback on her part....I did the b4 I found MB. I know I have a burden I will carry, and my quick tongue could be a detriment to our recovery. Do you have any tricks you've used to make sure your angre doesn't cause more harm during recovery.

On a positive note..... The movies have stopped in my head this week. I haven't had a dark thought of them in several days, even then it was quickly removed.

Thanks for the prayers.

My 4-month after dday point happened last week. Forgiving is something I let her earn and she has. And still is doing it.

And I agree, forgetting is never going happen, but it can become much less of a daily/hourly thought (the movies) as time goes on and with your wife demonstrating her remorse and fulfilling her MB obligations.

The trick I use and Ive said it before is when I look at her I see someone who was weak, lacked any confidence, and was very stupid. I manage to make myself feel sorry for her. I dont tell her i feel sorry for her. Its my trick.

Otherwise, I have to live with the assumption my wife went after OM and desired him in every way and I frankly dont want to believe that, despite it probably was true (at least in the earlier days of the A). If you read my story, you'll understand my wife hated OM at a certain point and definitely after dday.

Now, I made it clear those three personality flaws ended on 5/8. If we are to stay together, I need someone who will make smart decisions, act with confidence, and takes control of her life because someday she may be on her own and expecting a man (or OM) to take care of her is a disaster waiting to happen. Like it did on May 8th.

I have no issues with anger lately. I do fight anxiety every so often but that is way less and less. This has to do with the fact that my wife has lived up to what I asked of her in all aspects of our life. And I have done all that I need to do to make her happy.

I have forgiven, not forgotten.

All,

She admitted today, unprovoked, that she still thinks of OM and has to make herself stop. She said she know she never wants to hurt me or them family again. She doesn't want to go back, but still misses him.

I let her finish and told her, "it's only been 2 months, you invested 2 years into him...I don't think you are ready to admit your letting go. All I can do is love you and wait for you to choose. I will continue to do what I can to fill your LB. Thank you for being honest.".

I gave her hug and a kiss on the cheek, and went back to doing what I was doing.

Question for all Waywards...... Do you still think of your other? How can you not? How long b4 you were out of the fog?

Working the plan....one day at a time.

I think you had a good response. Tough to hear those things.

She already chose, Tex. She chose YOU. Don't keep that door open when she's already closed it. CLOSE THE DOOR.

Good job on thanking her for her honesty. That keeps the communication line open.

If she admits it again, which I assume she will, should I tell her to give it more time???

She was 2 years of the EM, and 6 months into a PA.... She will take time to stop remembering him?? The question is a normal time? I will add 6 months to that number.

It seems normal. Patience. You are doing well.

Cv

Thanks MB and CV. Time can not move fast enough.

We talked again last night. She admitted she was angry at me for neglecting her EN and wondered if I even cared about her. That was my fault, and I apologized. She will have to forgive me at some point for my failure, just as I will forgive her for hers. I'm trying to be patient, but it's hard loving someone so much and them not loving you back the way you need.

She told me she forgives me for my actions that led to the PA and for what I said and did on DDay and afterwards. She tells me she is having a hard time forgiving herself for what she did and for the pain she caused me. She doesn't know how I can ever forgive her. She says she is angry at herself and has so much anger from the past.

Is this the fog clearing? I hope to be able to forgive her soon. I don't know what that will feel or look like.

Tex,

This is good. I like anger. Anger means she is not indifferent. It's not hate, it's hurt, frustration, maybe a million other things, but it is NOT apathy. We just finished chapter 3 (well half of it) in our bible study tonight. I tied it in with this passage:


Col 3:1-6 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. (2) Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. (3) For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. (4) When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. (5) Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. (6) On account of these the wrath of God is coming.

and followed through with this one:


Col 3:12-14 Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, (13) bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. (14) And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony.


an odd passage for discussing affection as most women's top EN? Maybe not when you think about it. Both our W's had A's. We are desiring to set their minds on things above (even though we are at different stages, our goal is the same).

We are all called to put to death idolatry, which is what those lists of sins are. And because we put these away in preparation for something better, we put on compassionate hearts. You know, that heart where we show kindness, humility, meekness and patience. Not always easy to do with this type of sin.

Bearing with one another is not easy. It means literally to hold one's self up. That idea of when we are weak and exhausted, battered and weary, we pull ourselves up and endure yet a little more.


Why? Because Christ loved us first and endured so much more.

Sorry this is long. let me get to the point. Our FWW's complain about our past actions. With meekness and humility we acknowledge that we failed in meeting certain needs without excusing the affairs. We readily admit our own fault paving the way, setting the example for them to do the same.

We prove our repentance in the same way we are requiring it of our FWW's... By demonstrating it. We begin meeting those needs.

I understand her anger. She will forgive you when she sees the full weight of her sin. When she comes to grips with the full awfulness of what she's done. Be patient. It sounds as if she's chewing on some things and hasn't yet fully digested them yet. In the meantime, keep being what you are.. kind, compassionate, firm, loving... All the while meeting her EN's and filling that love bank.

CV

Tex,

Truly I am a prophet (just kidding). This is what I was talking about with coming to grips and digesting the awfulness of what she's done. truthfully, the forgiveness will come slow. And that's ok. It's not a one time declaration, this forgiveness thing, it's a process. As she walks out her repentance, forgiveness will follow. remind her of the goal. It sounds like the fog is lifting a bit.

What does it feel and look like? My man, it is wonderful. Peace. security. joy. looking at her and not being shamed or ashamed. it is kinda that idea of what you thought your marriage was gonna be... except it is.

CV

Thanks for the prediction CV.....ha

I truely hope this is the fog lifting. Is there a chance for a refogging to occur?
Should I be on the lookout for that? I have to travel for my job, my fear is while I'm away, she may drift back. I am texting her and calling her to make sure she knows I miss her and love her.

Just asking if the "fog" ever comes back. She has been very nice to me over the past several days, even asking me to lunchnon her own. I usually did the asking in the past.

Still waiting on her to ask me for SF. I feel if I ask, I am pushing her. I want to just meet her EN and fill her love bank. She will ask for sex from me at some point. Patience and will power..... It's like looking at a slice of chocolate cake and waiting for it to say, "Please take a bite of me"....!! Oh how I love looking at that piece of cake.

It's been 4 months since they have seen (PA) each other, 3 months since they spoke, and over 2 months since they texted. Time is moving forward and is on my side.....

Texas,

Why not initiate SF? In our case, I, the woman, initiated after D-Day and into NC with OW, because my FWH felt too horrible and ashamed and figured I would turn him down in disgust. I figured the only way we would ever reconnect on that level would be for me to initiate. It would show him that I still wanted him and for us to recover. Also, I wanted to show him that what WE have together is a hell of a lot better than what that skankho could offer.

Now we're pretty much back to H doing much of the initiating and W doing the enthusiastic agreement. I can't speak for all women, but many of us like to be pursued. Also with a couple of children, it perhaps might not be occurring to her. You know, SF on the back burner kind of thing.

Anyway, that would be my recommendation. Get alone with your W, and make sure it's before you are both exhausted and just whisper in her ear that you love her and want to make love. And, well, you know....just start doing what you know she loves.

My two cents....

51,

I have been the initiator for the past 17 years. I can't even remember the last time W asked for SF......always said she didn't like it....it was not something she enjoyed. Well that didn't stop her with OM. So now I'm faced with why she would do that with him. They had a 18 month EA, b4 she asked him...and yes She asked him to have sex. He of coarse said yes, paid for the room in cash, twice. So I told her, it's not my place to be the one to initiate. I told her I wanted and enjoyed SF with her. But she would have to ask. I will give her time for the fog to lift, I wish it sooner rather than later....but it is her choice. I have a time frame in mind where I will start to question her commitment to recovery if she doesn't come around. I will then have to make a choice to stay or leave again.

Let me know if I'm way off base. I feel like giving her time and letting her be in enthusiastic agreement about our SF is the only way we will have great SF. Which is not what we had before the PA.

Have you talked with your wife at any point about why she doesn't seem to enjoy SF? She might have enjoyed it with OM; she might not have. She might have enjoyed the "fun" and fantasy, and sex was just a way to get it.

CV posted to you in your thread that sex was probably to get a response, such as admiration or attention. Women often use sex to get love, or what they think is love.

If she doesn't enjoy SF, maybe she doesn't understand how her body works. (just a suggestion here.) In the SF chapter of HNHN audio series, Dr. H. talks about how the woman needs to find out what makes her happy in SF and then relate that to her H, so they can both enjoy it.

Your D-Day was just a couple of months ago, and perhaps she is still in a bit of withdrawal. It took my FWH a couple of months to really get out of the fog. He did the No Contact and committed to recovery, but he still seemed to think rather fondly of OW as well.

Hurt like anything to think he'd think so well of a woman who didn't care if he left his wife of 30 years and never see his own daughter or grandchildren again. But now....he says he was a fool. He now says he thinks it was terrible of her to sleep with a married man and help destroy a marriage, since she had been the BS in her first marriage. He said he has seen the pain with his own eyes and can't understand why she didn't care that she was helping to put an innocent person through the same pain. Of course, he takes full responsibility for the A himself, but all this time, he had said what a "delightful" person she was. Seeing the A and the OW for what they really were took a few months.

Might be a good idea to sign up for the Online Seminar. It's a really helpful way to start a course of action to rebuild the romantic love in the marriage.

51,

It's a complex issue with me. One that I struggle with the most over this entire situation. I am very worried that her dislike for sex may be due to me. She has told me from the time we first had sex, that she does not like it and that she could go the rest of her life without it..... Enter OM.....they had a 18 month EA, when she decided to move it to the next level. She was the aggressor, she asked and asked until he said yes. The first time she says was just for him. On the second meeting, she shopped for sexy clothing and bought some body oil ( she says they didn't use it ). But she did have him give her an O, and she allowed him to do things to her I had been denied for years.

She says she loves me, she says she wants to recover, she has written the NC letter, she has been remorseful, but has not moved forward with any of my EN. She is still foggy, and I'm sure she will be in some fog for sometime. I struggle in thinking she stays foggy, so she doesn't have to address the SF I need.

This could all sound like late night babble, but I am concerned it is not my company she missed, but her attraction to me. Her attraction or lack there of is why she doesn't enjoy SF with me.

I wait and continue to do my best to meet her EN.

Have you filled out the love buster and emotional needs questionnaires? Has your wife?

The workbook "Five Steps to Romantic Love" has a breakdown of each of the emotional needs with a questionnaire for each one, very detailed, so that there is little question in determining what the problem is.

For example, there is a group of questions regarding sexual willingness and how often does one feeling willing, under what conditions and so. It's really a very helpful workbook.

My H and I have been married for a long time and experienced a pretty good to even great sex life for years, but we learned even more from the HNHN books, audio CDs, and the workbook. We were pretty surprised and enlightened by what we learned.

Do you have any idea why she would not be attracted to you? Has she ever felt attracted to you? Or has she rewritten marital history and forgotten the good times, like so many waywards do?

Is she depressed right now? Is she on meds? After the withdrawal has passed and she is really "with" you again, it would be a good idea to sit together and fill out the questionnaires so you can each better understand the dynamics in your situation.

Counseling with one of the Harleys would also be a good option. More directly to the point and plenty more privacy than here on the forum. (Even though we're anonymous.)

From what I've read, most men like their women to initiate at times; sort of shows the interest and delight is there.

It's a major disappointment to have wife with little sex drive who goes and has an affair.

You can read every piece of information about the cheaters mindset but its tough to get passed that, ill admit.

My philandering friend who himself got caught 2 years ago gave me advice after my dday and basically it was that I should take what I want. I'll never hurt her, never force myself, never did. He said as my biggest EN take this opportunity to change this bedroom dynamic.

After dday I will initiate and do more to make it happen than before. I will not spend enternity sexually frustrated. That ended in may.

She hasn't complained and our rate of doing it has certainly slowed a bit since dday, but bottom line is when I want it, I either tell her or show her.

Can't sit and wait for her to start the action. She has improved in that arena from a zero pre dday so she could only go up from there. I have no complaints.

The most important thing to think is rarely are A for SF for a woman. That and plenty of post dday shagging help the BH get passed the thing you're hung up on.

In my mind I had to fight a very emasculating thing she did to me. By "taking" her, if you will, I showed her a few things. The most important is that she is mine. Not to mention it's made us closer than ever.

It's about openness and honesty. Tell her you want her and it's one of your conditions for recovery. She either seeks help for her low sex drive, finds it within her, or youre destined for unhappiness.

Life is too short. You've shown her your best side by allowing her to stay with you after she almost lost it all. Now she had to earn her stay. Don't continue losing ways. I definitely didn't and it's been real good.

Tex,

You need to understand that there is a very great likely-hood that even though she was the one who asked for sex, that it was not for the purpose of SF. Likely, it was the need to manipulate through sex. OM was fulfilling an EN or two, but not enough. Sex became a tool she recognized she could use to get that EN filled even more.

Sex in the right context is awesome. Sex in other contexts is dangerous. It is used as a tool to manipulate and control, to get stuff... It can even be used as a weapon to hurt your spouse.

It is likely that while she initiated sf with OM, she most likely did not enjoy it. What she enjoyed was the rush of power and feeling of being in control (as with my FWW).

In it's proper context though, sex is about trust as much as it is enjoyment between an H and W. It may be that she has never trusted you enough to relax, but it may be that she does not trust something about herself enough to relax and enjoy herself.

What you two really need to do is block out some serious time to discuss SF. Plan the conversation ahead of time. Give her a head's up. Let her know what you want to talk about. Make sure the talk is about the two of you. Not about the A.


CV

CV,

I appreciate your insight to what my WW may have been doing or feeling when she asked OM for sex. I have to convience myself this is what was happening. I believe MSS that have I to not live in an unhappy relationship from here on. She has been hesitant to take any more surveys since we took the 5 Love Languages survey. I have not brought her to this site, she has been to the articles and knows I am writing on a blog. Like I've said before, it is a strange environment around the house. She feels guilt, seems remorseful, and doesn't want to talk about PA or OM anymore. I don't either really. She says her feelings for him are still there, but doesn't want to tell me, bc she doesn't want to hurt me. Her fog may be lifting, but there is still some there.

My therapist tells me, and I've read that her feelings for him may be there forever. He is now part of our life story. We have to work on writing a new chapter for our marriage where openness and honesty are foundations we don't shy away from ever again.

I will have that talk with her, we will plan on talking about us and about each others expectations. I don't want to say I am a upset with the progress, but today has been a day of little hope. Each day is a new day and a new opportunity for us to closer or further apart.

Recovery is a slow painful process.

Tex,

I just re-read some of your posts. You do realize that it took her 18 months of an EA to get to the point of s with OM right? That right there should say something. Most likely the EA was stalling and not going anywhere and in order to get him to meet more EN's, she began requesting SF.

Just as an aside to what MSS posted... The post about claiming what is yours. I wouldn't quite phrase it that way, but there is truth to what he is saying. It may be a good way to show her you are interested if you began pursuing her more, letting her know you are interested in her. Keep her mind busy... Tell her that tomorrow night you are going to (pardon the crudeness here) romance her pants off of her, because you love her and want her like you love and want no other. My thought is that you are replacing OM with yourself and not just leaving a void there.

CV

Thanks for the encouragement. I doubt that is possible today. We spoke for a few minutes, and she is not interested in SF right now. She says she doesn't know why she asked for SF from OM, and is now confused and back to saying she doesn't like sex.

I bought SAA today and will start to read tonight. Is it also a book she should read? Is it as tough on WW as this forum?

Yes, she needs to read the book too. And fast.

She'll learn that she is failing terribly at earning your forgivness and has a lot to do to get her marriage back.

And, youre now on the board since 8/17 and you dont have SAA yet?

Whats up with that?

TTS,

I see you say "yes the OMW knows", are you refering to Nov. of last year when the OMW tried to reach you? Because as I see it, you are following your own plan. Believe me when I tell you that this does not lead to marital recovery as I am a poster child for what not to do.

Melody early on tried to advise me, it took me many years to fully expose. I didn't find MB until 2005. You are only setting yourself up for more problems by picking and choosing what to follow. It also looks like you didn't talk to your children. I didn't either after the 1st time many years ago, two of them were babies, after the most current affair it was a couple of d-days before I did. Our youngest was 14/15...he knew something was wrong and he had his own stories of things that didn't add up when he was around his father.

I see some of the VET's are no longer on your thread...I think you can guess why....

Listen to the Vet's, they know what they are talking about!

ba

BA,

Thanks. We have fully exposed to everyone except the younger children. They wouldn't understand, they do know that Mommy is seeing someone ( her therapist ) to help her with her problem. They know we are working on making each other happy. Explaining to a small child about adultery doesn't seem like a good use of time. The OW knows. I found her FB, and went to her and her sister. She knows. Shenhas not responded in word, but her FB picture changed the day after I sent her the note. I am watching her FB to see if anything changes.

As far as listening, I am listening to any advice I can get. As you can tell from some of my post, her Fog is still here. It breaks and comes back. I am working on her EN and keeping a positive attitude. Please keep the advice coming.

One thing I appreciate about all of Harley's books I've read (and even the audio clips I've listened to) is that he is fair. He has a kind and even tone. He has never seemed harsh or tough in anything of his I've read, but he doesn't mince words either.

As to your other question, yes. She needs to read SAA ASAP. Read it with her if she will let you. Heck, read it to her.


CV

CV,

Thanks for your support and encouragement. I have a question for Grace, if you could pass this along. I haven't figured out how to copy and paste to a specific person. Here it is... "What was the one thing she remembers you did that helped her get over her addiction of the OM#2?".

The reason I am asking, I have tried everything i can think of....she is still having withdrawals and deep emotional pain.

I've started the book. I also picked up, HNHN from a friend. Can't wait to read them both together.

I really like hnhn. Probably my favorite of the 3 I have. (LB and SAA along with it).

I'll ask her to post something.

I don't know how to explain the way I felt this morning when I woke up. Feeling lost, like nothing is working, like giving up and just moving on.....it is not the pain of DDay, not the fear of loseing family, not anxiety, it is different. Am I expecting too much too fast? Why does it seem as though nothing I've done seems to break the fog she is in? Everyone is giving me advice....some say stay and work, others say leave.....exposure has not brought the quick end or resolution I expected.

I ask myself, "How long can I go on like this?".... I'm reading others threads, there seems to be no rhyme or reason.... 2 years is a long time. Is the 2 year window a full recovery? What does recovery even look like in the beginning??

I have to remind myself to say ILY even if she doesn't respond. She told me she felt smothered, then felt neglected... WTH, can't win.

I could just be rambling, could be my AD meds wearing off or kicking in....?? Who knows??

Tex:

I hate to say this again as we have been saying this for a while.

I dont think you killed the affair dead with a napalm-like exposure bombing. If your first attempt at exposure hasnt achieved the results most get, then your WW is in deep, and perhaps a stronger statement should be made.

If you feel like you cant do anymore, then your current feelings are accurate to the situation.

I really dont think youve read the book SAA. It lays out how to proceed when the fog is not lifting on your WS. Youre not following the plans as I see them.

WOW TTS try to stay calm your time line is much like mine, this time. As impossible as it sounds try to relax....nothing in life is pressing, relax....you are only in controll of you so attempt to get control, of yourself of your feelings....It is not hopeless even when it seems hopeless.....2 years seems like a long time but it really is not. we are only 40, breath and relax. my advice if you have any time is read read read.....my best reading has been pepperband old posts under mopey.....lets you know you are in a normal state of mind also saw a great post by star*fish which i cant find anymore//// it was about a goat!!!! oh how true.
somthered/ neglected its all bs, and you are not really trying to win.
work on getting yourself to a happy place, you are the only one you can change.....RIGHT
anything is possible, remember that, and you will be better off in the end,,, no matter what the end brings... concentrate on the DD's
And know we are all here for you, even the lurkers, like me

Consider that she may have asked him for sex because she sensed it was a need of his. Kind of like a large deposit to his Love Bank. Remember, in the early stages of a relationship, the Giver is in the lead and wants to do everything they can to give to the other person.

Dr. Harley, emphasis mine:
SF isn't a top EN of your WW. But because her Giver was in full swing and anxious to make as many deposits as possible into OM's Love Bank, she offered that. You can bet that, had the worst scenario happened and she left you for OM, the time would come when she would be refusing to have sex with him because she 'doesn't like it'.

MB's comments struck true with me. One of the benefits (yes there are a few) of knowing every detail imaginable is that you can fairly accurately predict things like this. In our case, OM and W were headed that direction. Worst case scenario. Resentment was building because OM was asking for sex more and more and it really wasn't on W's radar. Shew wanted other things. SF was the tool.

It *IS* hard. We didn't see a big turnaround in some areas until year three as far as clear solid recovery. There were areas where we both improved, but hitting a solid spot hit just this year.

CV

BTW, Grace will probably respond tonight to your question. last night got real busy.


CV

Thanks everyone. MSS, I don't know if you are helping or pouring salt on my wound. I want to say you are the most abrupt. I am reading, I am following the plan and I am learning along the way. I've only been here ( MB ) for a month, and the first 2 weeks I was wadding in slowly. I've jumped in the deep end now. Sometimes we all need a life preserver to stay above water. This place is that for me.

TTFG and MB, thanks for the encouragement. I am working on me. It's me that seems to be the most screwed up this week. 2 years seems like a long time, but I know in 2 years, it will feel like it flew by. My oldest DD will be a senior or in college b4 we hit the recovered stage.

CV,
You and I could become long time friends here.....I love your post. I know I will never fully be able to wrap my mind around the "why", but having you and others explain the motivation helps. Dates still work as triggers, and mid-month will be hard for some time. Both PA events happened mid month.

Trying to stay positive!!!

Ditto! Most waywards never really know why either! They know needs are there, they know OP met them, they even know they screwed the pooch a lot of the time, but the reasoning as to why they let boundaries down... I dunno. seems that that is the one question I want answered when I get to see God.

Dates are tough. last week was the 4 year mark for when OM2 and W started. I prepared weeks ahead of time to not be triggered. It is a daily battle at the beginning and it DOES get easier.

Work hard, pray hard, tex!

CV

PS. and just take some time to relax. You know... so you don't kill yourself with the stress and work of it all. Total veg out. Read a comic or something.

Just a little humor on this...

My oldest son (he's 20) has just recently talked to me about this. He refers to it as the "erp-a-derp factor". Where the brain cells go into stasis and the WWS enters the special Olympics of relationships.

Cv

LMFAO

Tell him that he is wise beyond his years...

Tex:

No intention to ruin your mojo.

Ill stand down from posting if Im coming off negative.

The tough love I got from others directed me greatly when I was lingering in bad thoughts, not doing what they told me to do, and generally going against all the MB dictates.

Good luck to you and your family.

Mike

MSS,

I will need a slap in the face from time to time. Thanks for taking time to be the one with the hand for it. Working through a tough week. Didn't mean to make you out as a bad guy, we all have been through hell, some can still feel the flames and smell the smoke.

She just texted me saying she is pealing back her emotions like an onion, and that she feels nothing.....nothing at all. Says she would like to crawl into a hole.... I told her I have felt nothing from her for 2 months and asked if we could crawl into the same hole.....

I have done everything I know to do to show her I Love her and want to work this mess into a recovered and better marriage. I asked for a sign that all my efforts have not been for nothing... I would have taken an "I Love You" .... I got silence. She later texted and said the silence was not a sign of something bad,must that boss came in and meetings were called.... I don't know what to think. How can she not see I Love Her....?

Is her fog just too thick??

I need to get her to this site. I hope she will join me here. Should I have her read my thread first?

Nope! Have her just come and start a thread. She will come across yours soon enough.

BTW. HOW committed is she to MB?

Hey Tex, I'm sorry you're having such a difficult week. You want to know what one thing CV did that really changed how I saw everything...

I was in our bedroom and CV called me into the bathroom. He took me by the hand and started talking to me about how everything I had done was dirty and how it made me dirty. He undressed me and put me in the shower...I was scared, but he picked up the soap and a washcloth and began to wash me from from head to toe. As he did that he told me that he was washing all the grime away, all the filth and disgust was going down the drain. He said, "from now on when I look at you I will chose to see you as clean and pure, like the girl I married". I just stood there and cried while CV washed me. I understood his love for me for the first time and I understood Christ's love for me for the first time as well. That shower changed my life.

It was the beginning of me seeing myself differently. I wanted to love like that...I wanted to love him like that.

Well, that's it. I know it may sound silly or trite to some, but I will hold this in my heart for eternity.

Not trite but beautiful

I'm with you TTFG,

It sounds like the most beautiful act of love he could have possibly done.

Ugly day today.....

In a conversation, she said she would like to live in a sexless marriage, but knows I won't stay for that. Says she doesn't want sex from me.

I said this, what if I told you I didn't like Prime Rib, and you loved Prime Rib. I would go have prime rib with you and would remind you every time you asked that I didn't like Prime Rib. One day you find out I have been eating Prime Rib at lunch with someone else. How would you feel? Would you believe it was the prime rib or the company I didn't like?

She says, "I liked sex with him, and I don't know why."

I feel like another bomb just went off, she says she loves me....Apologized for being mean, says didn't know why she said that, and that her anger got the best of her.

One dark day in a list of dark moments.

Oh tex I have heard that one too......
She also says she can never love me the way i need to be loved
All garbage
I love your analogy to prime rib.....
How the heck do you think on your feet like that....I still just crumble or get angry
I have to keep thinking that the mean things she says, will come back to haunt her in the future....
Keep tellin her how much she means to you
I try to keep tellin myself all days are good days some are just better than others.
at least that is what i try to believe


I do have more colorfull things I could say....afraid i would get blasted for it.
Keep riding the bus

TexasTwo: I know hearing that must hurt. I know first hand I know how much that hurts and even thinking about what I heard now 21 years ago... I still remember how it stung.
Two things...
One, you are more important than ever right now in you WW's world or she would not share that with you. As crazy as that may sound...
Two, you are entitled to grieve over what you hear and see and feel and its okay to tell us. Do not be afraid to visit your doctor for medication to make this stage easier to take.
Three (okay I know I said two things)....
There is hope.
Your wife is the panic stricken swimmmer and you are the life guard who must pull her from the water even as she fights you in terror.
You are needed and you can do this.

Prayers and Blessings for both of you and your marriage.
Me BS 56
She WW 50
Hers 18, 22
Mine 22, 28, 30
Ours DS 12
D-Day 1 - April 26 2009
D-Dapy 2 - October 15 2009
Exposed February 22, 2010
Me: Reforming Verbal Abuser (and I always will be).
She: still won't divulge OM # 2 despite overwhelming evidence, but slowly, ever so slowly, she is turning towards me. Some days I have hope and that is worth all the pain and patience.

Thanks guys....

After a good cry....and scream. I texted her at work these words...

"I'm not leaving you, I'm not giving up on Us. I have tried for the past 2 months to show you I Love You, I will try for as long as it takes. You deserve someone who puts you #1, that person is me.....not someone in a fantasy. You are worth the effort. I will not let you ever forget it. Let me show you how happy we can be. If you just relax, accept my love, and trust me...we will have a marriage like we have never had. I will not hurt, embarrass or neglect you. In return, I ask you to be honest, love me, and hold me above all others in your life. Never, Always and Forever... ARE words we can use with each other. I will never touch another women, I will always think of your feelings, and I will Love you Forever."

A few minutes later she texted back, that she was sorry and that made her cry. She doesn't know why she can't just accept my love. She says she is trying, and doesn't want to hurt me by being honest...

What now? I am firm in staying positive, showing her love, meeting her EN, and not showing her any pain I am in. Anything else you guys think I'm missing???

Darn Tex,

I'm sorry man. I can only think of two things

1) something is triggering her constantly and she's can't get OM out of her head

2) She is still somehow in contact with OM in some way.

Question for others who are reading... Is it good for Tex to never show pain or disappointment?

CV

CV, I'll consider your possibilities as viable, but let me put it to T2S this way -

WW: I don't know if I can enjoy sex with you.
T2S: SF in its various forms is a part of the bond that defines a marriage. Without it there is no true union. Either get your own selfish, arrogant head straightened out on this matter, or be prepared to see me walk away from you. You've got three days - take your time!

There has been entirely too much "Oh, dear, how-are-you-feeling-today crap infiltrating your treatment of Little Miss Opinionated". This would be appropriate if you were dealing with a nervous 12-year-old going to summer camp, but at some point, WW has to know that in her case there are legitimate expectations of adult behavior that, if unsatisfied, can lead to seriously deleterious consequences.

"I liked boning OM, but can't generate the same warm feeling about loving you" Really ?????? Are you seriously not enraged by this garbage? I'm enraged, and I don't have to listen to it.

As a sideline to your other question, CV: Yes, I think it is appropriate and worthwhile for T2S to show disappointment! Maybe by taking a chainsaw to her car!

Excellent post.

Sounds to me like there is contact.

NG,

I don't know how there would be contact. Her boss watches her email, I watch house emails and cell phone records. She told me she is torn between being honest with me and letting me know her feelings and calling him and having me find out. She says either way, she has made me mad and hurt me again. How long does this freaking fog stay around? She is a "hoarder of memories" and I'm sure she is holding on as hard as she can.....

In my reading of SAA, I am to be as nice and caring as possible. Meet her EN and let her fog clear.....If I show disappointment, am I not somehow keeping her from letting go? Should I put demands for SF on her? Will that not just cause resentment?

I would love to say "We are having SF tonight, or you can find somewhere else to lay your pretty little head tomorrow.." but I don't think that is in the MB hand book.??

It tough to be a Loving spouse and a Hard [censored] at the same time.....is 2 months long enough? Is it time to move to hard [censored]? Is Plan B my next major move? We are pleasant around each other most of the time. It is just when we discuss how I am doing, that things get heated....she feels guilty, I tell her to be as honest as she can, and boom!! A bomb can go off....other times she breaks down and cries, sausage doesn't know why.....says she doesn't fell worthy of being loved...yadda yadda.... She has had her AD meds increased since DDay..

I don't know how there would be contact.

My note addressed 'contact' not at all.

My post addressed the fact that WW is treating you with contempt and disdain, and evidently you're okay with that. Spoiled, willful, children will act that way until they understand that negative consequences can be applied.

She catted around with Mr. OM until you made it impossible to continue that activity. She has decided to "punish" you for "correcting" her. We've seen this played out here WAAAAAY too often.

There HAS to be an adult in this relationship. She is the 13-year-old who has had her "toy" taken away. You apparently want to play the "Boy Scout". Failure awaits.

SEX is the canary in your coal-mine here. She is looking to "get over" her affair without doing the work to FIX THE EFF'ING PROBLEM!

Do you want to see what she should be doing now? Read HelpForDad's or MikeStillSmiling's posts on "In Recovery"; read Mirrormirror's post here.

The "carrot" without a "stick" is worse than useless. It merely results in overfed, underacheiving asses.

NG,

Sorry to misrespesent your earlier post. It was about my cauddling of her. I am just s few chapters into SAA, but the part I read and have read here says not to make demands. Demands take away deposits from her love bank. I

I will read the post you suggested. I appreciate your insight and advice.

I don't want to be the Boy Scout...I want to be the Eff'ing Marines. Here to protect the family, offer safety and security. Killing ( figuratively ) anything that poses a threat to it. I killed the AF, stopped all contact, exposed, and have been the loving husband she said she wanted. She comes in and out of this fog....today it was thick. She told me the only people in her life who have never left her or made her feel unloved are the kids. I know I was not perfect, but I am changing. I am going to be a better husband.!!

It was me. I suggested contact. I was thinking maybe a prepaid phone or something.

So... Maybe I am taking too many liberties with "nice and caring", but let me suggest that it is neither nice nor caring to allow certain behaviors continue. Many times I have equated WS's with kids in the way they act and think. Sometimes with our kids, the loving and "nice" thing to do is be a hard-a$$.

Whadda ya think Tex?

CV

CV,

I want to be the hard A**, it is the easy thing for me to do. I have been struggling with when to stop the playcateing and just say to her.... This is how it is going to be. But everything I read, says take on the burden of being the good guy, make her feel loved, make her feel like she will be missing out by continuing this fantasy.

I have asked, is 2 months long enough? NG seems to think so. What about the rest of the vets?

...You deserve someone who puts you #1, that person is me.....not someone in a fantasy. You are worth the effort. I will not let you ever forget it. Let me show you how happy we can be. If you just relax, accept my love, and trust me...we will have a marriage like we have never had. I will not hurt, embarrass or neglect you. In return, I ask you to be honest, love me, and hold me above all others in your life. ...

From what you told us, you have been really good in plan A.
What struck me in the text, is that it was a lot about what she deserves and though also a little about what you ask from her, but in my opinion, you might want to shift it a little to: WE deserve to be happy as can be, I showed you how it can be, when we both work on it. This is what you can expect if you are on board.

You know, a little bit more sovereign on your part. You have really been the hero in these 2 months and you are (becoming) a fantastic husband (any woman would be thrilled to have) and you deserve the best marriage. Period.

God bless you,

Happyheart

Ive been saying what NG said for days now.

Her emotions are dictating this whole recovery attempt and they are nowhere near where a remorseful wife should be.

I agree a firm time line is in order.

He's being too nice in my opinion. She's assaulting the health and well being of a lot of people and it has to end. She's a grown woman acting like a spoiled baby who can't get what she wants.

Going back to the conditions for recovery from an affair:

1.) No contact of any kind for life with AP. (no FB peeks either.)

2.) Fully integrated transparent lifestyle

3.) Rebuilding the romantic love so that the marriage is better and stronger than pre-A. (Just Compensation)

The third condition has not been met yet. Two months is long enough for your W to recognize that she has a responsibility to your marriage, just like you have. She needs to start meeting your ENs, just as you've been meeting hers.

If my FWH had continued to mourn for sex with his AP, it would have been deeply wounding to me. Not sure I could have continued living with him under that condition.

Has she told you what it is she doesn't enjoy about SF?

You could get Dr. H's opinion regarding your situation by emailing the radio show with your circumstances: mbradio@marriagebuilders.com

The problem, apparently, is that while your efforts ended the physical sheet-soaking, the affair lives on, in her mind and heart.

Certain WWs have the remarkable ability of being camels-of-love, maintaining enough affection for their OMs to sustain them through the affection-desert they themselves created with their BHs.

Yours seems to have the condition worst than most. That sux, but experience since I've been on board here is that "enticing" those emotions from them has not been effective.

Being treated so dismissively for two months must be galling. Imagine your LB$ if this were to go on for a year. The problem before you is to inject the concepts of "if" and "but" into your marital dynamic, as in:

• You are willing to put in the effort to recover, IF.........
• You understand this process will not be instantaneous, BUT.........

I do not envy you your situation, T2S.

Thanks to all you earlier morning posters.....I told her this morning I could not continue to be her roommate. I put it like this.... I have been the person you have wanted for the past 2 months, you now need to ask yourself, What is it you are willing to do to meet my needs, and what is it you are not. Let's compare those two and work together. We start this weekend.

I also took her wedding ring, she has said she needs it resized. I haven't decided if I give it back or use it as leverage. My hope is someone at work will ask, she will then see others are watching and noting changes. She says everyday that she loves me and wants to stay together. I feel manipulative by doing this, but I am out of ideas.

51, radio sounds like a great place.

NG, your history here gives me hope. Please stay on my thread. I foresee some more tuff days ahead of me.

And yes... I am hurt, angry, galled to the extreme, sad, emotionally spent.....it Sux big time. But the option of working to fix this is better then the D option.

Stay positive and picture a happier time, that's what I do.

T2S -
I am not an expert. Just a guy who is on marriage # 2 and trying to recover from betrayal who had experiences very similar to yours in marraige #1 where I was also betrayed. BUT... in my marriage # 1 back in 1990 - 91 I went through several months of my then wife behaving in the manner you are describing. She would cry about missing "his car," or his "voice." She would ask me to be her best friend and then I would listen to her talk about how much she loved him. I acted caringly. There was no Marriage Builders on the internet but I instinctively did Plan A but I did not put boundaries out to protect myself. Then one day I just cracked. I found a Christmas Present wrapped up and addressed to him. When I calmly confronted my then WW she told me that she wanted him to know (even though she wasn't seeing him anymore) how much she loved him. Two hours later with my WW out of the house I fell apart. I have never been the same person ever since. Ever. I lost something that never came back. If I had it to do over, I would have set a date with WW when I would no longer listen to what I now know is fog babble. In my case back then, the fog babble went on for six months. Eventually I could take it no more and I moved out and she immediately filed for D. What I feel I did wrong (I will never know for sure), was try to console her when she grieved over her lover. I should have calmly listened, then I should have told her calmly that I understand her confusion and fantasy but that if she wants to live in a marriage with me that I will not allow her to live in fantasy land anymore. I would explain to her that I EXPECT her to create boundaries not just for her actions but for her feelings. I would explain that her grief over her lover when expressed to me is a huge form of emotional abuse that I do not deserve to receive. I would tell her that I EXPECT her to participate in the marriage and that at some point SF is necessary to stop her fantasy's about OM. I would explain to her that her unwillingness to give to me through SF is making her act as if she committed to OM and that in reality she committed to me in marriage. I would explain (calmly) to her that her guilt is making her think she is or was in love, that in reality she is and was "in fantasy." Her guilt is making her want to believe that love made her do what she did and that she cannot let herself believe she loved me because it makes her feel to guilty and accountable. I would tell her that the simple reality is, she has not broken the bond to OM until she freely gives herself to you. In esseence, once she betrays the OM like she betrays you, her feelings for OM will begin to fall away like autumn leaves and that in the months ahead you will have a winter as she lets go of the fantasy and that a beautiful spring in your marriage will take place. I would tell her that the responsibility for this change is on her back and that you EXPECT her to do it.
I would then ask her not to say "yes" but I would talk with her until she could virtually repeat to you that plan just as detailed above and commit to it.
I have done management training in the real world for decades and one of the things I train people in is that when you want to change a behavior in someone you do not tell them what you want and ask them to say yes they will do it. (At work if a manager does this he/she has less than a 15% chance of success. But, ask the employee to detail out exactly what they are going to do to change and the chance of success jumps to 65%. Plain and simple there is something in the human mind that increases commitment when a person states exactly what they are going to do to change versus when you ask them to change and they just say yes.
Okay... maybe my advice will help you. Maybe not. I just know that if I was back in 1990, I would have created safe boundaries for not just the marriage but me. I do not believe you will be able to take months of your WW grieving to you and you should not. That is emotional abuse. She, not you, must deal with the emotional pain of her decisions.
I admire you T2S more than I can express.

Prayers and Blessings for both of you and your marriage.
Me BS 56
She WW 50
Hers 18, 22
Mine 22, 28, 30
Ours DS 12
D-Day 1 - April 26 2009
D-Dapy 2 - October 15 2009
Exposed February 22, 2010
Me: Reforming Verbal Abuser (and I always will be).
She: still won't divulge OM # 2 despite overwhelming evidence, but slowly, ever so slowly, she is turning towards me. Some days I have hope and that is worth all the pain and patience.

Tex,

having been a Marine (in real life and taking this tact), I can tell you the benefits and down-sides of this approach.

The gains you get from this kind of approach are most often long-term. The respect from taking the hard stance don't come immediately, but rather after having established a track record.

respect and "like" are not always the same thing. Someone may respect you, but they won't necessarily "like" you for taking the hard stance.

My in-laws are an example of this, as is my wife. This was/is the approach I've taken to our marriage since the beginning. Hard-but-fair. The thing is, you have to apply the same principles to yourself also.

My in-laws have never liked me. Were infuriated with me after the A (but not at my W). They were upset that I exposed OM at his work and cost him his job (they never met him), they were upset that I told them that I would not just forgive and forget.

Grace on the other-hand was not appreciative of how I took a hard stance on things until after the A was found out and immediately saw why I did certain things the way I did. To her, it was "heroic" (her words, not mine).

let me see if I can give you an example...

After Dday, I took a hard approach with my W when she told me she wanted to stay. I told her this:

"Grace, you have talked enough for a lifetime with OM and your time for talking is done. Your words are damaging and hurtful. You are going to change if you are going to remain here. You don't have the same learning curve others have, yours is very short, shorter than you can possibly imagine, and if you don't get it together, grow up and learn, you are gone. Not because I don't love you, but because you are a dangerous person and you need to be defused. I am doing this because I love you, not because I hate you."

I dictated the terms for recovery and told her that 100% compliance is required at all times, and that like a marine, when she is told to do something (ie: not talking to men unless I am present or only for work stuff), she will obey instantly and fully or she is out.

This is how I protected her (and me) for months until that learning curve was caught up on. The Ep's still remain in place though.

Does this help at all?

CV

Some WS see their lives flash before them and are quick to save a vestige of what was. Others need a stronger hand.

Tex, yours is the latter.

Same difference in reality. WS need a firm admonition whether they are on-board with saving the marriage or, like yours, are a slow waker from the deep foggy sleep.

I suggest your firm up your expectations of her and ease off the 'take-your-time-and-when-youre-ready-to-come-back,-Im-here for-you' rhetoric.

I still get steamed over the fact the my wifes OM said to her that I would never leave her should their A get exposed. Turns out he was right, but in the early stages she wasnt so sure. I made her uncomfortable. Its the leverage we have.

Start using it.

CV & MSS,

My hard stance starts this weekend. She has already responded she doesn't want to stay, wants to work on us. She says she knows she has been selfish and is done telling me about her thoughts of him.

I will use both examples and word an ultimatum tonight.

I may also use some of this pycho babble to help her over her thoughts the way I have. When I have dark thoughts, I think of my oldest daughter being born or my daughters running to me and jumping in my arms. I will suggest that when she thinks of him, she might think of her girls crying bc their mom has been kicked out of the house, or her daughters wedding without her bc they don't trust her....a few days of those thoughts, and she should not only stop thinking of him, but should look at him as a threat to her ultimate happiness...?? Any thoughts??

Ok Tex, this I believe is a move in the right direction. Frame it in terms of boundaries. What is acceptable and what is not. If you are comfortable with it, post your letter here and let us help you refine it. I would draft initially the letter in this way and then work on refining it:

Dearest Wife,

I want to tell you from the outset that I love you and want what is best for us as a family. It is for this reason that I write you this letter. We have committed to recovery, yet real recovery is being halted at every turn. This is unacceptable to me and for our family, a one sided effort will not recover our marriage. In order for our marriage and family to continue intact and to improve, there must be real changes. You must commit 110% to this plan.

1) No contact. This means Facebook, asking friends or relatives or whoever about OM, phone or anything that has to do with him. No reminiscing.

2) An understanding and admission of the devastation you have brought into the family through selfish behavior, and a commitment to stop it immediately. You are continuing to think and act in selfish and destructive ways. You and OM stole from our family in terms of time, affection, money and other things that were not rightfully his or yours to give.

3) Sexual fulfillment. There must be a willing desire to commit to this for recovery. You must stop thinking about OM in regards to this. It is unacceptable behavior. It was not good. it was dirty and seedy, because it was simply wrong.

4) You have spent _x_ amount of years being self-loving, self-serving and uncaring towards your family. It is unloving to the children as well as me to have engaged in the affair and to continue thinking this way. It is time to stop, whether you are still in contact, or are mentally holding onto him with memories. The learning curve has become very short. There must be commitment from you immediately, and drastic improvements made for you to stay with me and the children. Love is not enough, for either the children or myself. You MUST ACT.

5) We have done the emotional needs questionnaire and others (list them here). You must begin working on (re)building romantic love in our relationship and meeting this family's (and mine in specific) emotional needs. You cannot remain a free-loader. This can be done if you commit to it and work.

I love you wife. You mean everything to me, but your inaction is killing the family and it is not acceptable and will not continue. This is not open for debate. You MUST work to remain here.

Know also, that you will not be working alone. I will be working alongside you as your helpmate, your partner, your friend, your lover and your husband. Our children will also be working alongside us to recover.

Your loving husband,

Tex

Now, as we said in the Marines... Men, this is your rally point (your thread here on MB). You know your mission and have your gear in order. Take the hill, stay in contact with your command post which is here at the rally-point. Mission accomplishment is first order. Troop welfare is second.


In English that means come here for advice and strategy (as you have been doing), charge ahead with your MB tools and come back to the rally point for supplies and reinforcements. You mission is recovering your marriage and you must set aside yourself for a time to accomplish this.

CV

One other thought occurred to me after re-reading your thread (ok it is more than 1)...

You mentioned waaay back in your thread that she had a friend that was kind of passing on info or was somewhat sympathetic to her A? Did she ever break that relationship or is she still in contact with he friend. It may be that she is a conduit for info being passed (even if it is just passing on updates about OM).

It can act as a trigger hindering her recovery.

Another question (and feel free to blow me off on this if you don't want to answer religious questions): Are you guys plugged into a church somewhere? Some Churches are better support than others.


Ok, if you need an e-ear to bend, you can notify a moderator and they can pass on my email to you.

CV

CV,

You have given me plenty to work with, thank you. I was on the same path. My question to you is, How long after your DDay did you have your Come to Jesus talk with Grace? Was your forgiveness cleansing b4 or after this talk, if after, how long?

I feel like I've gotten my recovery time line all screwed up by not drawing the line in the sand weeks ago....just when I feel like I am ready to forgive her, she drops a flaming bag of poo in front of me.

MSS,

You are correct.....she is in need of a stronger set of boundaries. They are now in place.

HurtingTurkey,
Your skills in managing this situation are correct. She will be asked to validate her plans to work on the recovery, not just say she will, or that she needs more time.

Thanks again to everyone, I head into battle now, I will check back regularly.

This is for all Vets.......

Who is the senior wayward who fully recovered in this forum??

Who is the senior BS who fully recovered??

It's not that I discount those who did not recover. Just curious.

When my WW gets here, I want to make sure those senior members know she is here.

Good morning Tex,

These are kinda tricky questions. I think you will find that "Recovered" means different things to different folks. Some BS who's marriages ended with divorce have moved on to new marriages and they feel "recovered". Others may have been on the list for 6 months and they feel they are "recovered". I guess what I'm getting at is that when your wife comes here she's going to have the opportunity to talk with all types of folks. Some of them she will click with and others she will feel hurt by and still others she will just not understand.

The key will be for her to be HONEST, even when it hurts. There are many posters, both BS and FWS, that have lots of good things to share. So just because some one has been on the list for 8 years that doesn't mean that they are going to be the best person for the job.

Take comfort in knowing that this is a group effort. :-)

One last thing, more than likely, your wife will set the tone for her thread. The way she responds will be really important...MB folks can usually smell a bull sh**er a mile away! I hope I get a chance to "meet" Mrs. Tex soon.

And do let us know how the letter works after you have your sit down.

You will be in our prayers and on our minds.

CV

Remember, Tex, that "recovered" is rather subjective.

Sometimes, a wayward is "recovered" if they take full responsibilities for their decisions leading to adultery, even if it has cost them their marriage.

Sometimes, for the betrayed, divorcing a persistently wayward spouse and getting their life back is "recovered."

When including those terms for "recovered" this list you seek is extensive.

Please note that some of the most successful marriages here are had by those who have had the misfortune of being on both sides of the fence, and have finally learned what it takes to have a successful marriage.

Great weekend.... We had our talk, Saturday she woke up early with me and made breakfast, we had a short make out session b4 I left for football games. I help with a church league. She and DD's came up later. Afterwards we ran a Warrior Dash together. I stayed with her the entire time to make sure she finished. She did. I was so proud of her. When we got home, a shower together helped clean our body and souls. Dinner together that night alone.

Sunday we slept in.... Coffee on the deck, talked about next weekends trip. We have playoff tickets for the Rangers. Movies with DD's, trip to mall, stop by ice cream shop, home for bedtime. I rubbed her sore legs and she massaged my shoulders.....

I feel very good about the progress we ( she ) made. She was more open, more physical, and not a single negative remark. There was no sex, but I had bad timing. Mother natures Aunt Flo paid a visit, but she did other things to meet my needs. Let's hope this is a turning of the page.

There were so many post, I don't want to miss any questions.

CV, we are involved in a church....very involved. Between you, me and other believers..... The devil is the master of deception. He can get to even the best of us.

Grace,
You are one lucky lady.... Great man you have. Of coarse you already knew that.

As far as vets.... I will let you guys know when she comes here. She will hopefully come soon. She and I are seeing a therapist who encouraged me to join this group. She says she believes good people can help good people when in need. She is concerned for my WW to join until her emotions are under control. WW is going to see a Pych this week. ADHD and hoarding issues?? Stay tuned.

Hope everyone had a weekend like mine, if so, the world would be a better place.

The "talk" went like this....

Over the past several months you have put a lot of time and energy into a relationship you knew was wrong and knew would not last. I am asking, that over the next month, you put that same energy into OUR relationship. You have injured me to the point I feel worthless at times. You have to stop with the "I'm trying, and start doing". There is no try, there is only do or do not. You know my needs, you know what I want, you must start meeting those needs. This weekend is for us, we either use it get closer, or we waste it....your choice. I will not play second fiddle to a lost fantasy.... If you want to make this work, and you have said you do....start acting like it....treat me like the man you want to be with, the man you married, fathered children with and have long range plans with.....not the man who pays the bills.

She said she would, she kissed me, we hugged. Kissed a few more times. That night, she fell asleep in my arms in bed. Big move forward in my eyes.

We are also doing the "Love Dare".... A series from Fireproof. Found it on our day out at the mall. It is nice to be working on a goal like this together. Still working MB plan, but this is a cute and sometimes interesting way of connecting. At this point, any conversation we have about how much we love each other is a step forward.....

Glad to be moving forward and not looking back.....

This is good news. I thought love dare was one of those games you play with dice... ;-)

The dice version is a little different I'm sure..

We have also planned a few more trips together..... Time away together is always nice. Sporting events are fun too.

Open conversations are easier now...... It's like the first time you have to get naked.....now it's like no big deal.... Big probably not the right word...ha ha.

Have a good Monday. Talk to you later.

Another good day. Moods seem to be good for both of us....

One point, I did ask about the "friend" who helped hide the PA....they have stopped communication on any timely fashion. She has texted and spoken a couple of times, and knows her relationship with her helped keep the fantasy alive. She and I know that the friendship is dead, and they will end all communication at some point. Is this a must right now? Is this a trigger for her.....it has not been for me.

Any insight?

It is an absolute must. It is a sad result of affairs that friendships are lost, but i can almost guarantee that she is being triggered through this. She should write her a letter explaining why they can no longer be friends. Something like this:

Dear friend,

I am sorry, but because of my Affair and your support of me while I was doing this, I can no longer be friends with you. I am sorry that I have caused this and have no hard feelings. It is just not safe for me to have a relationship with you. I need to focus on my husband and recovering my marriage, which is now my number one concern.


With apologies,
WifeofTex

Thanks CV.....

Removed her from FB as well. I would prefer she not know anything about our lives.

Her MIL and FIL go to our church, but she has moved to a different church. Hopefully we won't run into her anywhere.

Thanks for the thoughts and prayers.

good deal. We had biiiiiiig (texas big) problems with W's parents not long after d-day. Her dad was drunk and shoved our DD against the wall (we weren't there, but found out later from BIL) and ended up chewing FIL out over the phone and then meeting them.. Between finding out about 2 a's and them, I remember looking at my wife after the sit-down (whole nother story) and said "have anything else you want to do today?"

Her reply "yes sir, let's shovel the rest of the sh*T out of our lives..."

we forthwith proceeded to do that. OM1 still lives in town. In all our years here, I have never run across him. Not 1x in 10 years.

I am hopeful that this is the start of good recovery for you both. Time will be the test of it.

CV

Checking in....

Weekend was tough. She has gone backwards, and withdrawn physically from me.

We have had a tough week. Her phyc visit led to a Bi-Polar diagnosis and a new set of meds. They have been different reactions and she is very tired. She says she doesn't know why the world seems to be crashing in around her. The phyc used her condition as a measure of why she is unorganized and needy.....say bi-polar has many aspects and neediness can be one of those.

Life for me and the kids will be rough for the next few weeks as they adjust her meds.....I don't expect any good movement during this time. My schedule has been putmon hold.

Anyone else have depression or bi-polar issues with their Wayward??

Trying to stay positive.

Ugh. Sorry to hear this. I don't have much experience with it at all, wayward W or no... Give the meds time and hang in there. We are here for you!

CV

I concur with NG. No consequence before. Repeat of behavior

wash rinse repeat.

NG,

How long can a camel go without a drink? It seems 3 months isn't too long. I wonder what it will take now that she has an "excuse" to say slow down even more?

I will need yours and MelodyLanes advice as time goes on. If she doesn't contact OM but moves slow to meet my EM, when should I go to Plan B? Should I go to Plan B?

Waiting for a sign......

Today I feel like I have started over,... I have some anger, I feel lonely and I have thought about just calling it quits. Tomorrow will be 3 months from DDay, this roller coaster of emotions has slowed, but the last drop seems more intense..... We haven't touch in 2 days, I don't even want to touch her right now.....my anger and sadness keep me from wanting to even talk to her. Is this a normal sequence? I don't want to live like this...... I can't live like this for much longer.


Still waiting.

tex,

This is part of the rollercoaster. Some days you have to force yourself to do things. remind her of her promise to you. Hold her to it. Be patient while the meds even her out.

CV

CV,

I don't like this ride.....can I get off now??

I hope you and Grace are doing well. I feel like posting on others threads just to let them know the emotions they feel are not uncommon.

Keep the prayers coming......

T2S, your situation is rapidly approaching that of Stretch123, with a clinically-diagnosed disordered spouse showing no willingness to extend affection and/or appreciation for your efforts. (It's likely the mental/emotional neuropathies laid the basis for the affair, not the reverse, but for the moment...not material.)

The MB program is based on logic and the expectation that rational people will generally act to better their own interests. You see the problem with this in your case, right? Until WW is of a state of mind that she can objectively recognize her own interests, and see the paths to improving them......it's likely problemmatic that the program for you will proceed as rapidly as in other cases, if at all.

So, first, you and she have to address her private issues (demons?). Get that depression/bi-polar disorder/whatever managed.

That I can do...

You reminded me of something that really reminded me of A's. When we were in highschool, grace and I went to the county fair. We got on one of those rides that spins constantly and I thought I'd be a smart-a and yell something at the carny guy running the ride. Well, long story short, he got the last laugh. We spent about 10 minutes just going in circles.... At a high rate of speed. Not only did I yak as soon as we got off the ride, I yaked like 3 more times that night.

That's what a's feel like. Carny rides that never end. but they do... Eventually the nausea goes away... your stomach calms down... your head stops spinning...

Post to others if you have something to share! Help is needed!

CV

Thanks NG,

We are working on her. I pray the Dr.'s can make her feel better.

It is tough having to work through the PA, and deal with her mental issues at the same time.

Pray for her and our family.

The last few days have been the toughest in weeks....her depression seemed to grow as reality sets in that she has a problem we will deal with for the rest of her life. She is withdrawn.....and not talkative about any topic. Her coldness is apparent to everyone. I fear she will use this as a reason we fail.....I am not going to give up..... I know somewhere, sometime she will improve.

Tex,

depression is HARD for the BS to deal with in the FWW. It is draining on you while you are trying to recover. It CAN be done though, if you have the willpower. What has the Dr. prescribed for her depression? Celxa was good for my W when she wasn't abusing it. low weight gain or none, helped her sleep and think clearly. Took a few weeks to kick in though if I remember right.

CV

Selects a does work in does take at least 2 weeks to work I know because I currently take it. It has helped immensely for my depression but it does take sometime. Welbutrin also works and has the same side effects Of little weight gain and actually has less sexual side effects

So I hear

She is on Abilify.... It has several side effects, but they should subside with time. Thanks for the encouraging words everyone. Thank God for this site.

An update from my WW.

She started a conversation saying she didn't know if she could ever get to the place where she felt good about our SF. She says she doesn't know how to stop thinking of OM, and she thinks I will eventually end up hating her because she can't make it better. She says she feels like she has ruined our lives and she can't fix it. She also said she feels once I start to hate her, I will leave.

Is this fog, or has she jumped in the deep end of a cloudy pool?

I responded with simple statements. One I do not hate you, your actions yes, not you. I love you, by choice, it is time for you to choose. Don't listen to your "feelings" they lie. Look at your life and work to make it what you want. When you think of OM, picture your youngest DD crying bc her parents divorced. You think OM is special, ask yourself what kind of man leaves his first wife and cheats on his second wife? Is that what you want for a step dad for your DD? How many women has he slept with? Are you that special to him or just another notch on his belt? If you think your special.. why does he hide? Why doesn't he contact you?

This is not easy for me. It's the hardest most painful thing I've ever dealt with, but I choose to stay, choose to wait, choose to Love You because that is the promise I made with you and God. You can choose to join me, you can't just sit silently and hope the "feelings" change....you must choose to do the hard work.

What do you Vets think?

Sounds like guilt and a form of escape, much like could be her reasoning for the affair. Yeah she is still foggy.

What you said was spot on as far as I can see, and yes, you can't just "hope", for feelings to change, feelings follow actions. Feelings do lie, they are quicksand, where the truth and knowledge is bedrock.

You have told her you would fight for the marriage, are you open to explore the emotional needs you need to address to create a healthy marriage? If so, then she will need to be open to this also, and maybe she still needs to defog some more.

Make certain she has maintained NC, that means pictures, letters, and anything associated with OM that could be triggers effecting her mind now. Work the plan, and give it some more time.

That my opinion, someone else who knows your story better might have another opinion, but judging from what you post said, you have the right idea and are saying the right things.

This is hard I know, keep on working the plan

God Bless

Ok TTS here is something I have not told or shared to ANYONE!!!!
Her feelings are normal and they take quite some time to get over, at least they did for me, and I mean quite some time. Not because she doesn't love you, because it takes a very long time to get the goat(AP) out of her head. I was triggered by everything and had a very difficult time. It gets better and it will work ! I know from experience but it takes time.

Imho anti-depressants will help both partners, not because I like taking mood altering pills, because they really helped me, prevented me from falling deeper into depression. Some depresssion and dealing with what she she she has done is good, but after that it hurts the cause.

Feelings do lie!

"You can choose to join me, you can't just sit silently and hope the "feelings" change....you must choose to do the hard work."

Just remember who she was, keep that image in your head. She will return, a little different but she will return

She started a conversation saying she didn't know if she could ever get to the place where she felt good about our SF. She says she doesn't know how to stop thinking of OM, and she thinks I will eventually end up hating her because she can't make it better. She says she feels like she has ruined our lives and she can't fix it. She also said she feels once I start to hate her, I will leave.

Ah, yes, demonize the opposition to defend one's own falures! WW appears to have reverted to the emotional development of a fourteen-year-old.

Explain to her very clearly that she is incompetent to project or predict your feelings and/or actions. Point out to her that whatever deep insights she thinks she has about your relationship are skewed by her still-fresh affections toward POSOM. And tell her to get back to work!

I agree w/ NG.... sometimes waywards need a boost, or a cow prod!

tex, have you verified there is no further contact?

CV

All,

I will keep working....the alternative is not something I want.

CV, there has been no contact. His image is removed from all FB, her emails and phone calls are being monitored, and she knows I have others watching as well. I believe she is just moving slowly. Her Bi-polar meds are helping. I see no retreating, just a slow fog removal.

Staying positive and working hard......

Hi Ho Hi Ho it's off to work I go......!!!

In this are a cow prod is acceptable... lol. The more I push, the deeper I feel her feet get dug in. I ( we ) need her to pick up her feet and start the journey.....one step at a time. What is it? "Every journey begins with a single step". She needs to take steps, 2,3,4 and ect...... Without looking back to see how far we have come or haven't come....

I'm on my 6 month plan, reevaluate then.....until then.... One step, one hour, one day, one week, one month at a time......never looking back.

I don't have much to add. She does seem to have a very weak "character". She does not know how to control her feelings even when she know what is the right thing to do. Expect to be in a long haul for this.

I know my wife is nuts right now, but she used to say " when nothing works, do nothing".
My interpretation you need to play more... go to lunch,dinner,breakfast.....can u tell I love food. Take her for coffee/tea, buy her flowers. Make her feel like the only one in the room.
I know it seems backass but sometimes there are gottadoos, you know what I mean? Find what works and work it.... we all know you are tired, she is tired too.
I believe neither of you want to give up, you r just stuck...
It gets better! Make ua abundant

Thanks TTFG.

Patience is tested every day.

Question !!! Vet's....

Today was different.....

As I rolled over in bed and began to touch her gently, she says "that's just gonna make me mad" .... I wasn't looking for SF, just a gentle touch and a kiss.... I thought, but did not say..... "Make you mad, me touching you makes you made..... How the F do you think I feel knowing OM ..@&$$&@ ...".

I got up and got dresses for the day.

So much movement forward, now a step back.

Question: Is this where I stop holding my thoughts and just say what I'm thinking? I don't want to keep bringing up the PA or OM?

Vets.....

PORH.....when should that start? I'm sure she is still foggy....I'm sure she thinks of him...

See my previous question... Is that part of PORH?

TTS,

Take this as a grounding thought; it is not unusual for WW's to "weaponize" SF and AF with their AP. In these cases, the physical component is prostitution, with the payment being Conversation, affection, admiration, or what ever Emotional Needs the AP met.

Considering this, focus on being the better cake, and what you can give her that her AP never could.

Well, you could have asked something along the lines of "why would me trying to show you that I love you make you mad?"

Or maybe explain what the intent was, and that her response was inappropriate. I don't think it is out of line to remind her that reconciliation means her working too.

CV

Tough week.....

Phrases like, "Your in my personal space" have caused triggers of what she would say before D-Day. I am doing all I can to be the "good" person, be a gentleman, but I need a WIFE not a friend. We are friends at this point, it has only been 4 month, but I see little change. I am more and more pessimistic that she knows ( and I have told her ) how to meet my EN.

Thought run wild of leaving or becoming a wayward myself.....I have control for now. I am taking EP and do not leave home alone. This sucks. There seems to be no sign of peace in my mind.

ugh. Tex, Hang in there brother.have you told her this week that you need a wife and not a friend? As far as becoming a WH, remember everyone you will be affecting, including yourself. You are in a tough patch, but they don't last forever. Keep working your EPs.

How can we help you have some peace?

CV

All....

She read my post while I was at a church event. She told me I haven't been honest her about my feelings. I responded with, "I am trying to keep a positive attitude while we work on things.". As I asked last week, 4 months into this, is it time for me to stop with the soft gloves and just tell her how I feel evrytime I feel something? Dr H says be overly kind, say nothing negative....but this is killing me. Her saying "I'm trying" is wearing thin. I am an advocate of there is not try, only do or do not. And she has been a Do Not, for 4 months with my EN.

Sorry to vent, but I want and need help. Should I ask her to start her own thread now that she has read mine?

Sure tell her to stay off your thread and start her own

She should be aware though that people will be brutally honest with her

You might have had issues that helped make an affair easy but it is still no excuse

Having her read your feelings and fears no doubt set you back. She was not ready to hear them so she got defensive

Happens all the time when couples read each others thread

Maybe after a good deal of time passes you could do this, but it still will be painful, but full of remorse instead of defensiveness

This site teaches us to act the way we should, and then the feelings will follow

We just gotta agree with what's right, real, and responsible to one another, and that first not last

If she starts her own thread, let her be prepared for change, and honest truth also, that will be liberating in the long run, and is about abundance, not loss of freedom

Have her start her own thread. We'll be firm, but caring. We'll only 2x4 when she needs it!

I think it'll be a huge help for her if there's still some fog.

Thanks CP.... I will suggest this site to her.

CV.... What can I say. Once again you give me hope. Thanks for the response. Why is fear the worst feeling? Probably because most fears are unfounded, unrealistic or just impossible. I thank you and everyone here for the help. She did come to church, but later. I was on the set up, tear down crew.....one of my many duties at church functions. I'm pulling back on those until we are right and have met our 15-20 hours.

Double dating tomorrow ( doesn't count ) but should be fun, and a date this weekend are already on the books. I know the thoughts of leaving are a trick the mind plays, I just need to say them somewhere so someone can give me a "slap" across the face and send me back to work.

God Bless.

I suggested she start her own thread, but she thinks this is too weird. She doesn't like that I have given all the details ( bc she read them ) or that I vent my frustrations to total strangers. I just said that I need support and I get that from this site. I mentioned that she should not read my thread, and she took that to mean, I would say negative things about her. I just smiled and said, I love you, I want to help us have a better marriage....why would I go through this just to bash you to strangers. Start your own thread, or just read others....you will see the support we all get here. Group therapy from our living room, and at no cost.

I am so thankful for the time and support everyone here has given me. I will keep you posted as our recovery moves ever so slowly forward.

Thanks All....

Tex, this is for your wife.

Dear Mrs Tex,


It is a little weird here. We tend to be a weird bunch. One thing we all have in common is a shared tragedy. I'm on one side of the fence and my wife is on another. Been where you guys are at. Most all of us have. We share our stories, we are anonymous to a degree... But we are here to support each other because we know what it's like and the guy who started this place helped us all a lot. His counseling works. We aren't a cult (though I do take paypal on occasion ) but we are kinda like a big family in a way.

One thing you should know is that we are all rooting for you. We want you to succeed! We won't let tex disrespect you. Promise... Give it a try. if you don't like it, sign off. No harm no foul. Wadda ya say?

CV

T2S, your wife coming here is (IMHO) a "high-risk, low reward" proposition at this time.

You know her: we don't. Is she the kind of person who would have the self-control never to post anything doubtful of the MB practices, or self-justifying in any way? You and I as FBSs get treated with comradeship and support when we go "off-message" like that. Too easily, a severely suffering BS would quickly respond to a FWS with a dart about, "what do you expect, you're a WAYWARD!", and any good your FWW might have garnered will likely be undone (personal history from another site).

And once that toothpaste is squeezed out of her tube, there ain't no putting it back!

All of this is my opinion, you understand.

Yeah NG, many unrepentant people come here with an attitude, but many still , want direction from others who have guts, conviction, and direction that cannot be swayed or driven off.

This Is a unique place, as it is anonymous but people here are not just mindless zealots afraid of being alone, they are many who KNOW that they are, and are responsible for thier own actions and relationships

To those that want to challenge that Fact, many of us will take up that challenge, and those that do not have the stomach for it, will eventually leave

But not before hearing from some of the most honest people on the Internet who will not back down on this position

"Love others as you love yourself" , and might I add,, also learn about love, what it is in the natural, and what it is beyond the natural, in the supernatural, and all that is in it's good and bad

Yeah it can be a. Challenge to some, and it might scare some off, but it can be respected as real

I hope they choose real, and stick around, but it's up to them,, if they arecstrong enough

Thanks everyone,

She probably isn't coming here anytime soon. I'm not pushing it on her....but I did tell her this is my safe place to vent, ask questions, and get support.

I don't know where I would be without the help and advise ihave received here.

God Bless all.

Feeling down in the dumps today. Little EN met, little POJA occurring..... She seems to have retreated to solitude and depression. I feel trapped, by the love I have and know is there and her emotional state and lack of efforts.

4 months tomorrow, that could also be a trigger. The calendar is not a friend of mine......

Not giving up.....marathon is not over.

God Bless.

Tex, be strong pal. She may also be triggered by the calendar.

CV

4 months since DDay..... Not a great day. Stayed busy and kept company around so I wouldn't be alone. We are going out tonight, if she feels up to it.....

I keep asking, how has it been 4 months..... Then why hasn't this gone away, it's been 4 months! Crazy talk I know.

She is still foggy, her meds seem to have slowed her down and mellowed her to the point she is tired all the time. I have my down moments, but never down to the point of leaving. Trying to stay positive in Plan A. Looking forward to seeing the light at the end of this tunnel.

God Bless for the support.

You're doing a good job Tex. You're on a rough road.

CV

Was a keylogger ever installed on the home computer/s?

TTS, I couldn't sleep early this morning so I skimmed through your thread and wrote that quick question about the keylogger but some more thoughts...


It sounds very much like there is/has been some form of contact. Especially since there was a short period of time when she seemed like she was coming around and then very suddenly went back into being distant. That is a huge RED FLAG that should not be ignored..

With a foggy WW, you MUST have your i's dotted and t's crossed in terms of the monitoring to be sure. I hope you will answer the question about the keylogger and also let us know what type of phone your W has and whether you have some sort of spyware on that as well.

What do you mean that OM's image is removed from facebook? That means you blocked him? Please be aware that it takes two seconds to remove those blocks and that would keep your W stuck. FB is a terrible terrible idea for a foggy WW who used FB to connect with the OM to begin with.

Lastly, it is concerning that you never heard back from the OMW. Can you tell us what your FB letter to her said? Did you tell her that you had evidence of the A that you could provide?

Susie,

A key logger was not installed on our laptop. I keep it and she has to ask to use it. It is password protected, so she does not use the laptop much.

She has an iPhone, huge mistake I know. I track every call and text she makes and receives. Since OM lives far away, the area code is easy to spot. All outside area codes are questioned. I have tagged her sister, mother, and a few girl friends, anything other than that get a long look if not a call from me. She know this.

Her Bi-Polar has had some effect as well, she has changed meds twice in 4 months.

As far as OM and OMW,
They have gone silent. His # has changed ( I called it ), and OMW hasn't posted on FB in more than a month. I have blocked them both from FB on wife's account. If wife unblocks, it takes 24 hrs to re-block, and I would find that. I believe there has been no contact, she knows the penalty for such an action.

My main issue is her work on my EN. She starts, then withdraws. Says she doesn't know why she lost her love for me. Says she is happy with our marriage, just doesn't want SF or any physical touch. Loves to talk, be alone, take trips, ect.... Just no physical touching. Even used the words "my personal space" when I tried to give her a kiss. I can't get past her unwillingness to work with me and her willingness to have SF with OM......I'm not unattractive, not over weight, not unkept..... She just feels no attraction towards me. 4 months past DDay is not long, but time seems so slow. I fear my will to stay will waiver if we don't start meeting my needs. Even while she was deep into the EA and then the PA, she met my needs. Now that the PA is over, she has not.

Fog and meds seem to be my biggest obstacles. OM is gone.

Not having a keylogger is a mistake.

Not having spyware on her iPhone is a mistake.

That's why we typically advise these measures for the WS who conducted their affairs mostly online.

Just looking at his info through the internet will keep setting her back. She may also have a secret email account, would be very very easy for her to maintain through the iPhone.

I think you are not being very smart by not taking these fairly easy measures to ensure that there is not any further contact happening especially given that you have said yourself she is still very foggy...

I asked what you wrote to OMW and if you offered her evidence. Did you?

You realize that many times the OM will "spin" the story to the OMW (my high school FB friend's H is crazy jealous and has accused us of having an A even though she lives 300 miles away!) especially if your W told the OM that you knew of the A and you did not expose right away.

I am guessing if you didn't hear back from OMW that this is what happened. This is important because you need her watching OM from her end to ensure NC.

Yes get some spyware installed on the phone also.

Either way you mentioned she is willing to have SF with OM and not with you. If I got that right, its not medication oriented lack of interest with you then.

Does she know you are going to watch her and understand that? Is she willing for you to do that to protect yourself?

Who does she blame for her affair? Is it still you?

You should lock down this site also from her because unless she is willing to participate she is just gonna go for control again.

She created this situation and you are a Bigboy and can have your own friends.

OM could have a cell number in your area code. Either a contracted one or a prepaid....yk.

Just a quick history...

OMW found out about the EA last Nov., she call my WW and gave her the what fors..... OM and my WW knew the call was coming and had a story worked out. They convinced OMW not to tell me and that the contact would end.

When I found out, I pretended to be my WW while texting OM to verify details my wife had told me. In the end, I told him it was me, I knew his #'s and his wife's #. I didn't.... But he was scared sh*% less. He tucked tail and ran. I then went to find his wife. Found her on FB. Wrote her to tell her she had been lied to by both, and that the EA had become a PA. Told her to let me know if she knew of any contact from then on. We communicated via FB for a couple of weeks, but she has been silent for some time. She removed OM pic from her FB, that is what my WW would look at. She had no pics of her own, I have been threw her phone. She uses the same iTunes account, so no where to hid them there. I sorted pics by date on laptop, nothing.

My guess is OM and OMW have gone silent and are working on their marriage. The last thing I sent her was a link to this site. My hope was she come here for help.

We are several hundred miles away, he would have a difficult time getting a phone with this area code, but I will watch. She has slowed down dramatically on her calls and text.

It is a lack of attraction for me that keeps her from meeting my SF needs. She "blames" my inattention to her needs as the cause. But then says, I love you and want to stay married, always have. Says they never spoke of leaving marriages and living together. He confirmed that in my text. She is just a mess......screwed up from all the effects of what she thinks she wants. I stay believing we can be a better couple. I cling to that....through all the pain.

God Bless. Thanks for the post. Sorry this one is so long.

Hey Tex no worries on the length of your posts, this is your thread.

Ok so you know by now it was the trickle truth that kept her mixed up right?

Entertaining the idea that there can be more than two in you marriage leaves her confused, and in the area of a renter, when she should be a buyer. Yeah still foggy and fooled into believing everything is OK.

I just want to warn you not to let up on this for her own good. Yes she made a choice to cheat, and yes it destroyed something. But you are in the place of willing to put it back together, and it is your choice also.

I know you are stepping gingerly around all of this, and I know that IC is also, but how much will you allow and bury inside also? There is only so much that you should take on, until it becomes dangerous for your self esteem and respect too.

This is about owning up to our mistakes, and taking responsibilty for them, not about finding "reasons" why we were fooled. Once we see we were, isn't that enough to look inside ourselves and deny ourselves those excuses and hold ourselves lucky to have realised our foolishness?

What does she believe when she is alone?

CP and CV,

You have both stirred my interest in how to address the issue of future contact.

I need some advice on possibly rewriting our EP's. I think I read on someone's thread a line addressing future contact. I want to put in there, that any future contact made by WW, will result in her leaving the house and family....No negotiations!!! Any contact by OM, must be reported immediately.

My fear, if OMW kicks him to the curb, he will attempt to contact my WW.

Right now, it just says.... No contact with OM or OMW ever.

Any suggestions or copy of a EP would be helpful.

I still believe there has been no contact and she is just slow to release and move to meet my EN. I've read SAA and HNHN, going to buy LB to read this weekend. She hasn't read, did scan through SAA. She says she was confused about why she feel in love with OM, when he was so far away. Hasn't read much since. Doesn't like to read as a general rule.

She still is flying by her own rules it sounds like

The rules of her feelings, the justifications of her freedom and thinking the grass is greener over there

Around here we call it foggy, because feelings do not help us think well

She is not interested in the books because they go against her fantasy life she sees as freedom of expression and what she deserves for all her sacrifice

Yet she has lost the understanding that she is not alone in this, you are just as much invested

There is a scripture that talks about someone who does not have control of thier spirit is like a city with no walls

What is offered here is a way to understand our spirit, not to live by our feelingsl. This is part of growing up, and as soon as she is ready to do so, you can help her separate her "wild thing" from the grounding knowledge, that some feelings are dangerous to herself and others.

Is it fair? Depends on whether you love others as much as yourself, and the truth more than the lies that we belive when we think we are supposed to have it all according to our emotions

I would get some spyware on the phone and I am not sure where you are in your transparency with her but maybe it's time that you take possession of this marrige and stand up for it. Tell her that you want protection also

CP,

Believe me, she is foggy. A foggy, depressed, bi-polar, love sick fool.... Who can't decide if she deserves the marriage, kids and security or if she is so F'd up that she deserves to be kicked to the curb the way her mother was..... I see the struggle, I see her go in and out of happiness.....I live the horror of thinking she will just give up.

I need protection, my children deserve protection.....and I will give them that.

What I need to know if inside my EP's can I put the precautions and the consequences? Or does that come off looking like a threat?

CP, MB, CV or Pepper.....

In a short conversation at lunch she says "I feel like things are getting better and you don't... Why is that?"

I replied.... BC I'm meeting your EN and you are not meeting mine.

We then compared mental notes.... She believed most of what she has been doing is meeting my needs. I told her those were her needs, not mine. She knows my needs...... Is this foggy behavior or just laziness?

Still looking for clarification on EP's as well.

Still communicating calmly.

Calling all Vets.....

Need advice on past two post.

I am sorry, I forget(I am too young for memory problems aren't I?), where are you? Are you in Plan A? Recovery?

She either protects you or she will be divorced. Dr. Harley suggests a man do six months of Plan A if there is still active affair stuff going on (ie won't do NC). This puts you to after Christmas. Then you go straight into Plan B.

ETA: If you are 100% certain there is no active affair still, then Dr. Harley believes a man can go two years in Plan A.

Does she have any other secret stashes of things you didn't find? Have you searched your entire home? Are you sure NC?

In many cases a wayward will continue to fantasize about the relationship with the OM. You need to find out if there are some particular things he did that you are not doing. I know that will be so hard to discover, but something is keeping her foggy.

Most likely contact. If you can rule out contact then the fantasy still exists.

Plan A for the past 4 months.

There isn't any contact as far as I can tell. I watch and have others watching for me too. She accounts for all her time, spends very little time alone. I check her phone, her search history and all phone records. Contact is not it.

Imdo believe it could be a fantasy. Can't remember who said it early on, but she is a camel of memories. She never forgets.

I'm in Plan A. I pray we don't need to go to Plan B. I don't know if she is strong enough to be alone right now.....

Would modifying the EP's be a LB. ??

Is this foggy behavior or just laziness?

Actually, my vote (Hey! It's Election Day!) goes for "ignorance", because there are two ways it can be manifested.

1) She could be ignorant of what your key ENs are.

2) She could be ignorant of the importance (necessity?) of working to satisfy them.

Tough to keep track here, T2S: Has she read HNHN yet? Have you and she done the ENQs?

If the answer to both is "yes", then I would submit that you and she have not worked up a system to track progress on them. (Yeah, I know, like every guy your first thought is a red star on the calendar to mark "SF" days!) But there is more to it than that. What "RC" have you initiated? Does the available UA time foster IC, and A?

At the beginning, it will seem "forced", but only because the two of won't have discovered the language that will make it "comfortable".

As an example, when my bride tells me "I love you," I occasionally resist the "I love you, too!" easy-out, and instead respond, "Yeah? Give me three reasons why you do!" Or when I tell her she's beautiful, she'll come back with, "What could I change to improve my appearance?" (I've tried getting away with saying, "Get a less troll-looking companion!", but she won't accept that.)

I took up (&$?&%?@-ing GOLF as a pasttime we could spend together! She took up "Raqs Sharqi" (aka: belly dancing) to entertain me. These things we did because we jointly looked at our "menu" of actions and realized that we had to MAKE, not LET, things improve.

(And do you want a sneaky little secret? Spend time with couples who ARE high-satisfiers of each others' ENs! It's catching!)

NG.....

Thank you so much for those tips. She has not read HNHN or any of the books. We took the ENQ early, maybe we should spend time taking that again.

Ignorance may be the issue.

I'm in month 4, I had a 6 month plan in mind when we started....but I don't know if that is long enough for her.

Should I tell her of the time line? Is that not just blackmail or a huge LB?

She said in our late night talk, that she sometimes thinks it would be better if I found someone else and was blissfully happy, and the kids would be happier if they had a new mommy. That has got to be her depression and low self-esteem....don't you think. I just told her that was nosence, and we all loved her.

I'm thinking of that EN questionnaire... Doe your spouse do it and do it in a way you like it done?

She may think she's meeting your en's, but possibly not (probably not) how you like them met.

I think this is possibly the likely case as it seems common with a ton of folks I know.

It also seems to be something we don't often focus on.

One of my EN's regarding affection is I liked to be touched. On the arm, back, etc... My wife likes to rub... She will "pet" my arm, back, etc... I kinda really don't like that at all. For her it's affection. Me? makes me feel like the cat. Had to explain to her *HOW* I liked the affection.

Knowing your needs and knowing *HOW* to meet those needs can sometimes be different animals. Couple that with the fog and she might think she's doing a bang up job.

CV

Don't tell her. that will be a LB. what if she snaps out in dec and is now dealing with "I blew it so why try". hang onto it for a while. I would advise you taking the enq every 5-6 weeks right now. seems like a lot, but keep it moving forward. Every little bit of MB stuff u can squeeze in.

CV

What do you need to modify for the EPs?

Yes - the ENs need to addressed. There is something you aren't doing that she needs. I would try and determine that so you can do extra for more deposits.

I had a 6 month plan in mind when we started....

Sorry, T2S, but I don't understand what your "plan" was supposed to have finished in six months. My first thought was that at the six-month mark, most BHs are slowly coming out of the "I'll-never-believe-in-her-again" maelstrom, and facing the "We-have-some-serious-work-to-do" issue. Well, congrats: You seem to be there about two months early!

Six months is also the usual "Don't-make-any-life-changing-decisions" deadline, and you've seemingly made the choice NOT to bail. ("I just told her that was nonsense, and we all loved her.")

All of this is good, and all on a schedule as might be called "normal".

Two years, dude. At that point, you'll probably be able to look back at WW's infidelity as A thing, not THE thing, that defines your life together.

And, as always, E-A-O-T-P.

T2S,

I, too, once had the 6-month deadline thing going....yeah, right.

I still operate in these 6-month blocks, so to speak, from last December on, but what NG said is spot on: it's gotta be 2 years, really, to have the perspective to look backwards and forwards on the marriage.

Hang in there!

Thanks guys.....

The 6 months was for Plan A..... I feel I could stay in Plan A longer, she is slowly.... ( very slowly ) coming out of her fog.

I understand the 2 yrs to "fully" recover. It may be longer for us in that reguard as well.

What I was asking... Is it normal or counter productive to change the plan in midstream. Are time lines just a guild that can be adjusted as we move forward? I know procrastination could become an issue if I am consistently moving deadlines....and I didn't want to fall into that trap.

Thanks CV, I won't tell her about the deadlines. I will also ask her to reevaluate our ENQ every month, sort of a state of the marriage questionnaire.

Do my EP's need consiquences attached to them? ie) no contact or you move out of house .... or Report contact or I fill for D.

T2S,

Please remind me: did you expose?

I can only say that after I exposed, we also spoke with SH, which helped a great deal, especially to clear some of the fog from my W. He said her withdrawal/fog would hang around for @ 6 weeks. Looking back, I'd say it lasted a bit longer.

In my 6 month 'block' of time between March (exposure) and September, the OM contacted my W in work once, around the 1 year skank-aversary. I thanked her for being O&H, and we discussed how to strengthen EPs.

From this conversation, and a tip of the hat to HHH for his clarity in this, I calmly and clearly restated MY requirements for staying in this marriage:

1. NC for life -- this means if W initiates contact with OM, or allows contact with OM, or OM contacts my W and she is not O&H/transparetn about it -- I am GONE!

2. Meet my ENs/build a romantic relationship to affair-proof our marriage (for her AND me!).

She has joked she has these 2 items tattooed on her frontal lobe, as she knows now, especially since I exposed and fought for her/our marriage, that I mean what I say and for me it's "strike 2 and you're out!".

Thanks.

Yes gently but firmly, thier are consequences to every action

Update.....

Good day today. Talked about EN again, and decided we should take survey again. We will do that this weekend. I also asked to go ove the EP's again. We are planning on doing this in the afternoon, while kids are outside playing, then going on a date that night. We need to schedule more UA time.

Still foggy, still reluctant to physical touch to an extent, but signs and attitudes were positive.

progress!

I wanted to run my updated EP's by some of the Vets b4 I presented them to WW.

1) NC with OM in any form, ever. If OM makes contact it must be reported. If it is discovered that you did not...You move out that minute. If you break NC...you move out.

2) NC with FBFF who helped hide PA. Same rules applies as in #1.

3) No FB friends with any former BF and we will go over list.

4) No opposite sex friends that I do not know.

5) Join me in MB principles by either reading books or joining forum.

6) Work to meet Top 5 EN. Take questionnaire every 2 months to confirm EN have not changed.

What do you guys think?

FBFF of WW contacted me on Thursday to say she was upset that I have "kept" WW from her. After a lengthy back and forth, she ended with a...... "F you, I better stop B4 I say something you don't want to hear.".
I didn't respond. Don't know what other information she could have, and right now, I'm trying not to care.

Do you have all of her passwords? I would suggest that you require her to put a pic of both of you on her FB profile. You should have complete access at any time to her FB account. I had my H shut his down entirely.

She needs to change her cell phone number and delete any email accounts known to her GF and OM. Has she done that?

This sounds to me like she was gearing up to really tell you off and then decided not to. I don't think she is keeping info from you. Telling you any secret she might have about WW would hurt WW.

Do you all have individual FB accounts or one for both of you? Many around here, if they won't eliminate FB entirely, will have one account for both of them - no secrets that way.

I'd also suggest doing an EN check-in every week. This doesn't have to be exhaustive; just a simple "how am I doing with _______", the answers are "on the mark", "right direction", or "needs work". At that point you each have the opportunity to clarify what needs to happen for them to get to "on the mark".

I don't remember if it's a problem for you, but watch the lovebusters - a lot of hard work and careful planning can be undone in an instant. Happened to me yesterday

I think this is dangerous thinking because it assumes that being "honest" about contact is a solution. It it not. I would focus instead on BLOCKING the OM so he can't get through.


Agree she needs to get rid of all loser friends who are enemies of your marriage.


No opposite sex friends AT ALL. [unless they are couple friends to you both] I would make it an EP that she get rid of facebook entirely. There is no need to even have a facebook page.



You need to be focusing on the top 4 INTIMATE emotional needs. It is those 4 needs that will make the fastest, greatest lovebank deposits if you also schedule 20+ hours of UA time. So, put aside the questionaires and get out the Undivided attention worksheet. Schedule out 20+ hours of UA time meeting the top 4 intimate EN's of conversation, affection, sexual fulfillment and rec companionship.

This is what you should do too, TTS. Just make it a boundary she get rid of facebook. Even if you have a shared fb account, she can still look up anyone on facebook and be triggered every time she does it. And people can still PM her. FB is a big fat nothing and is not worth the risk. Just ask her to delete it.

Thanks everyone.

I have all PW. I will revise and let you know how it goes.

Everyone,

It did not go well. Turned into an agruement. She felt I was pressuring her or blackmailing her.... "Your way or else" is what she said a few times.

Turned into a rehash of how we got here and why her FBFF is no friend of the family. I showed her my text from her. It didn't seem to phase her. Told her that her OM had changed his # and is not calling her. She said she still wonders if he did call if she would go to him. She still thinks of him. I knew she would, but her fog is thick still.

I don't know if I can do this much longer. She said she will not read, won't join this forum. She only wants to discuss progress with MC. I am going to give MC an ear full our next session. My EP's are not out of line for our recovery.....and she better back me on that.

I am going to see an attorney next week, I need to start planning for Plan B. I am 4.5 months into Plan A, no one has left house. But I can't stay, or sleep next to someone who says my touch is unwanted and has been for a very long time. Told me that hasn't changed.

She even told me if we divorce she would win custody of kids.....says our state gives kids to moms almost every time.

I don't know what to do, I feel like nothing is helping and I am loseing hope.

Tex, I seriously think there is some sort of contact going on. I don't know how... Maybe through a friend? Man, I hope I'm wrong. My heart's with you. Whatever you do, don't leave. Make her leave and file for custody first if you pursue plan B.

Be strong.

CV

CV,

Even in the heat of the discussion, she swears there is no contact.

I will ask her to leave.... But should I file for custody first?

I feel like walking out tonight......logic is the only thing keeping me here.

Get this....family pictures tomorrow.....the whole family, aunts, cousins...that's gonna be fun....Not.

Hang in there Tex,

Me? I'd set her down and ask her "do you really want family pictures tomorrow? Do you think that in the current state, there is a family to be photographed?"

Use it as a POJA for her. tell her you are NOT enthusiastic with it being done because you don't have assurances or progress telling you your family is being recovered.

**IF** you ask her to leave (you may find more strength to stay in the morning), I would file first. See what a lawyer thinks though. Not sure what the laws are in your state.

Remember though, no LB's or ao's as hard as it is.

cv

CV,

LB's are almost impossible to avoid with her right now.....she is fighting like a cornered animal....I feel so little love right now, I'm angry, sad and disappointed....she doesn't seem to get it!! Still foggy, still "in love" with OM.

What is ao's..... Angry Outburst??

It feels like week one all over.

I would tell her to leave today. File tomorrow. What's the story with the family pictures? The family is aware of what she's been up to, yes? This is very good timing. They're not going to be happy to hear that she's screwing up her marital recovery because she would rather talk to her FB friends than save her marriage. Can you talk to them and ask for their help? Maybe they can talk to her.

They're also not going to be happy the you, she & the kids aren't in that family photo, so they'll be on this pronto in order to help smooth things out before the photo session.

ITA,, Tex. Yes Ao=angry outburst. Seems you need to do a little something more to shake that fog of hers.

CV

It is a fog of the PA, and the absence of attraction for me. Yesterday when we were discussing our EN, she says "I don't know how to have SF", I lost my temper and said sure you do....you had it with him bc you wanted to, it not the SF you don't like, it's me! She said nothing. Silence was my conformation.

EP #2 delt with FBFF.... At one point I said it's either her or me, you decide. Long pause...... She said that's not fair. I said "It shouldn't be a tough decision, I would pick you over anyone you could list"... I believe she doesn't want to be married to me, and doesn't want to work on our marriage.

OM and WW did talk of leaving families ( most do I know, but she had said they did not ), but that they would wait until youngest graduated. That's 11 years..... I asked, "Did you think you could hide this for 11 years, were you going to just lead me along. That isn't just cruel, that's Evil." She kept saying "I don't know what to say, or what to do...".

I slept in another room last night, got up early and left. I'm just driving around, crying at the possibility she is a cruel and selfish person, I don't know that I want to be married to. Her depression / bi-polar and all the meds makes me even more sad for her.

Needed to Vent!! Sorry for the ramblings and length. I am lost!!

Is there a way you can do a SPECTACULAR Plan A until 1 January? That is six weeks. It has to be without any LOVEBUSTERS I mean any. Bite your tongue, walk away, come curse, vent, rant here on your thread.

Get your Lawyer to set it up and have her severed on 2 January if during this time she doesn't come around. You give her the Plan B letter on the same day.

2 January is six months from d-day. You have her removed from the house, and go super dark in Plan B.

I encourage you to go into a Plan A that will wow her unbelievably, and the ony way is to make sure you have no Lovebusters. Show her what she will really miss in you.

She does love you -- she is clouded by the fog. She had a strong contrast effect with you and the OM. That means she only sees all good in him, and all bad in you.

She didn't have reality with him to know all his faults. Your history with her is what is working against you. That is why you have to show only your Plan A side.

Her anger is good. It means she cares. Deep inside of her is her love for you. You spent 18 years together for a reason. There is love there, and you have to show her how your new marriage will work.

Keep your boundaries up - no FBFF is a must. Plan A her like a rock star, and in the meantime work with your attorney to get your separation set-up.

I know she loves me. She says she loves me. She says she would love to stay married as long as I don't have request to meet my SF and AS needs. I believe I'm an above average man, I'm very kind, easy to talk to, smart, funny, and willing to try exciting things. She says she "was" happy with me as a dad and provider. She just doesn't want to be my lover.

I am in Plan A now, I've been avoiding LB's ( until last night ). My plan all along was to make it through the holidays. I am just wondering now if I have the foritude to make it that long.

After last night, the movies in my head started again, the fears of him came back, and the thoughts of just ending our marriage are strong. During my drive around, thoughts of death crept in ( I am not suicidal ), but those thoughts did pass through. Depression today is going to be a battle. I don't hide sadness well, I'm normally the jovial person in the crowd. Children will see it and become sad, they fear a breakup. I am lost!!!

What is her top EN? Double dose it and up your UA time to 25 hours. Also, perfect time to start UA time with Christmas shopping.

Take her around to different jewelry stores and start looking for her gift. Work with her to plan out what to get the children. Wow her here! Make this the best Christmas on the planEt. OM WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO CAPTURE THESE MOMENTS WITH HER EVER. THEY ARE NOT HIS KIDS AND THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN IF SHE MARRIES HIM.

Set-up Thanksgiving weekend to get the family tree and decorate. Sit down as a family and make a bunch of ornaments. With family pictures and kids crafts. Your ten and six year old would love to do that. Make some hot cocoa. Use picutes when you were first married as your ornaments.

Don't even think about her fog, just pull her through it. Be the light for her to head towards.

Show her what your life will be like without her. Show her how she will miss this family time between Thanksgiving and Christmas every year.

Hiding my anger is not my strong point. She will yell, she will try to provoke me.....

I am so mad now, that I left house to cool down. Her texting me has only raised my anger again.

Her OM is a lying, 2 time cheating SOB, he used her for his own pleasure and ego and dropped her as soon as I knew. He is so far underground WW couldn't contact him if she tried. She is mad at him, but still feels more for him than me....

I don't know if I need a day away b4 starting Plan A again. I feel like I got Kicked in the Gut again last night, and this time instead of being the nice guy, I want to FIGHT. I am soooooo loooossssttttt. Is there a pause button I can push?

Stop this ride, I want to get off. This hill has made me sick.

Long drop.....

Things that fall must come up???? I have nowhere else to go but up.

ITL,
I pray I have the strength to do those things. Right now I am a beaten fighter, down on the mat. I appreciate your encouragement to "Get Up".

The go read on recovery the other BH's, Mikestillstanding, doormat_no_more, helpfordad, etc.

Read what they did and how they overcame when they were in the same position as you are currently.

ITL,

Thanks again. I need to get up, release my anger on some inanimate object and start anew.

I've read those threads, each offer hope. But it's like telling someone with cancer there is a 70% success rate. They hear 30% fail rate, failure means death.

I'm pessimistic today.

Man go to the sporting goods store and buy a punching bag if you don't have one. Beat the heck outta that thing. I used my old USMC seabag and beat my knuckles bloody (which I don't recommend doing with a broken hand like I did). I moved up to a punching bag a few weeks later. I tell ya, it was a miracle worker for me.

It's ok to take some time and cool down. I thought many many times that i could use a day away. Go stay with family or a friend overnight. Never did, but i wonder if giving myself a day to cool would have helped me avoid some major no no's.

CV

TexasTwoStep,

I hear your pain and frustration. we have all been in your shoes and know how tough some of the days are to get through.......
Just take those days minute by minute, day by day you will feel better. I know it seems impossible right now........
I think you have to remember your wife is going through withdrawal right now from the OM, fogged out, she can't think rationally you have to keep that in mind.......
You have to be the strong one and carry your family.........just stick to fighting for what is right, your marriage, your family.......
just keep saying, I love you and I will do whatever it takes to save the marriage....over and over again, as your wife de-fogs, she will see what the affair really was for her and what she has done to her own family.
In the meantime stick to being the best husband you can be, look good, smell good, just be mr. wonderful......she will see it eventually...........
Your wayward wife is not saying anything out of the ordinary, she is following the script........
Make sure you check for contact.......and wait her out........
I used to get into my car and just scream going down the highway, I am sure I must have look like a nut case but it relieved some stress and tension and I felt much better afterwards.........
My husband had an affair, it took him 4 months to stop contact with his OW, he was moving out and changed his mind last minute.........because he worked in the same place it took another 4 months of watching him go to work before the OW found new employment so I was in Plan A for a long time............I know it's hard, I just kept it in my mind that what my husband and the OW underestimated was "ME" I found the strength to fight for my family and my marriage........I learned a lot about myself..........this forum helped, my friends helped and staying busy helped...................and yelling in the car...........hehe!!
hugs......jessi

I've got a bat and an old metal chair. Great sound when I hit it.

Today will be my cool down day. I've got to regain my composure. I don't want any LB's.....

Let me make sure I got this right, my EP's do not qualify as SD on my WW. That is not a LB.??

Your requirements for her return to the marriage are not LBs. It is absolutely your right to be clear with her on what it will take for her to return. Your EPs are completely within bounds. A remorseful wayward would have no problem agreeing to them.

Keep the bar high. Don't let her reluctance at this point tempt you into adjusting your EPs to make her more comfortable. She's attempting to take control. Make sure she understands that this is not negotiable.

MB,

That's what she s trying to do. She wants to keep FB friends, wants to have contact with FBFF..... I've told her those are not acceptable. I told her she is not taking my mental health into account.

If in Plan A and she refuses one or two of them, then what? Do I stay in Plan A and try to convince her or jump to Plan B. She has no issue with NC of OM.

Second ?? In my AO last night I called OM, an A hole and said he used her, said he was a coward.... LB's?? Is it my right to say he is a POSM? Does that help me?

FBFF?

Is that female friend?

Tell her you want FB ended becuase you must be friends together socially

If she found AP on FB, then that is another reason to end it

Go with what MB says, keep the bar high

My thoughts on FB: it has become a huge fixture in our electronic social world. I can count on one hand the people I know who don't have an account on FB. Some of my friends who have FB accounts can't finish their morning coffee without posting a comment about how much cream they put in it. They would go into shock without their FB account. I don't get that, but I respect their need to be in constant contact with people over some of the dumbest interactions...ooops. That wasn't very respectful of me, was it.

I originally advised you to require her to maintain a profile pic that includes BOTH of you and to have consistent access to her account because I understand how endemic FB is. I did require my H to shut down his account, but he rarely used it, so there was no hesitation on his part. I was just trying to close every contact loophole I could think of when I told him to shut it down.

Here's the thing, though: A smart spouse will have a keylogger on the computer and spyware on the phone. I didn't have those things at the time. If you have spyware on her computer and phone you'll know quickly if she's slipped. I would shut down FB if she relapsed and tried to access OM's account.

That's just me.

You've already made it a requirement that she shut down her account. I am reluctant to advise you to alter that requirement because it will appear that your EPs are flexible.

What MB said...

First....

FBFF is female who helped her in the PA. I required she NC with her too. She confided to my WW about her ONS, so they were like partners in crime. Each kept the secret. FBFF wrote a note to OM, telling him how wonderful he made my WW feel, and that she hoped to meet him someday. No friend of mine would have ever done that......most of my friends would have punched me and said you tell Wife or I will. She is no friend to this family.

FB..... She is a well known poster on FB. Shutting down completely is almost impossible....FB never goes away. I have asked her to remove all FBF. She claims there is only one.....and that he is no threat. She dumped him. I have her PW's....I can check at anytime.

I will place a key logger on laptop. She uses phone most of the time. What is a good iPhone key logger?

I am holding strong to my EP's. If she can hold true for several months, they won't feel like such a restriction. It is her choice.

FB is a trigger for you, so that means she must delete her account or you make a joint account only.

All those who made the affair possible need to be NC for life, otherwise she isn't safe for you EVER.

We are sharing her account. I've told her if she deletes any PM, I change PW and she won't get on it again.

I agree with thosenwho helped. I used several analogies with bothnof them, but the bottom line is WW has to decide who is more important in her life. Those who hurt this family, or those who love this family.

BFF is blocked on cell phone and FB. A secrete email account is the only way FBFF could contact WW. She has to tell me if that happens.

I hope we can calmly discuss or top EN questionaire. Maybe that can wait a day or two. I don't want to overwhelm her. She will feel it is too much.

Thanks for the kind words and encouragement everyone. Tomorrow will be a new day.

Keylogger will solve the hidden email account issue.

You can wait for a few days on the ENQ. Let her sort through everything and come to the understanding that your EPs aren't unreasonable.

Suuurre, make her pinky swear that she'll tell you about any contact. You'll be confirming it with a keylogger and spyware on her phone that she doesn't know about. This is a must, Tex.

Monday....Monday......

As we are getting ready, she says... " I do understand the depth at which I have hurt you and our family. I wish I could not feel anything for him, I do."

What I wanted to say, " The more you think of that POS man the more he uses you, he tossed you out and ran like the coward he is".

What I said, " The longer you stay on our plan and work to meet each others needs, the less you will think and feel for him.. I Love you, and will be here by your side to help."

How did that sound?? I'm working slowly back to our ENQ.

Sounds like there is contact

Waywards are such children

Get some spyware on the phone and do everything to snoop

Tex ---

You should resist all temptation to criticize OM.
It puts her into a defensive posture, and will make her defend him - which again makes her think positively of him.

Let her process OM's betryal and abandonment of her sink in.

All women want to think that they are so special and wonderful that the man they "love" will love, respect and cherish them in return. It is a HUGE blow to her ego if OM dumped her.

Yes, I said IF -- because I highly suspect that she has either attempted or found a way to resume contact. Because there is no way she would let your texts to OM serve as her "closure". Waywards are very big on closure - they need to have that conversation that reassures them that the affair was sooooo special.

She will obviously come to the conclusions that OM used her, and tossed her aside, and that he's a piece of crap. And she is likely having that internal battle with herself. She misjudged her importance to OM. But its not a good message to come from YOU.

Because she's going to start questioning YOUR judgement. If OM didn't think she was worth leaving his wife for, and he easily tossed her aside - then that means she's not so special.
Why do YOU want her? Whats wrong with you - can't you see that she's not worth fighting for?

You need to have high boundries and standards, because if you make it too easy for her, she will disrespect you for it. She will think you are so deperate to keep her that you will ut up with anything.

(That's how waywards think....hope it helps)

By the way, I didn't see anything about your conversation with OMW. How did that go?

Lex,

I have been resisting my need to slam and defame his name to her.

I want to just say ... "Stop being stupid, he used you... sweet talked you right into bed with him. He was more than ready to have sex with you as long as it was safe. The second he knew I knew.... gone.!! What an A hole" He did this to his last wife too.... I like to throw that in there too. He is a two time cheater, and she is "in love with him" ... I think Sat. night I even said.... man I wish I could be like him???!!! During my AO, I said most of this...

It is heart breaking to think she feels anything but contempt for this man. She was the one who kept calling, so I guess she is more to blame, but to think just bc he said he loved you and you had sex with him, that he was going to throw away his family.... that's delussional. Which is guess is FOGGY here.

I am setting myself up with high expectations, higher boundries and no room for compromise. I constantly tell her, I love her, I miss her, We need to work on us, and that she is the most precious person to me. I tell her she means more to me than anyone on this planet, and that her mistakes of the past only means she human and that we have to set up EP to not let this happen again. I try to build her ego, not stomp on it.

The conversation with OMW was short and to the point. She asked if my WW had confessed or was I just accussing her? I said not only had she confessed, but that I had posed as her and her WH had confirmed that # and dates of their sex. I left her with, I you need anything from me, please call me cell. That was it. She is blocked on WW FB, so she doesn't know that OMW changed profile pic. OMW did not respond to a PM i sent her on FB. My assumption is they have gone silent to us. I suggested that she expose, and she said, Don't you worry, everyone here will know.
Since they are 300+ miles away, I know non of his family ( which is screwed up ) or his friends. I threaten him ( B4 i found this place ) that if he ever made contact, I would inform his employer and let them know what he was doing on company time. OMW may have done that for me. I don't want to make any more contact with them, I want to remove and block all contact. Out of sight, out of mind.

Good day today.... She said a few nice things like "Your look nice, and Thank you for your help this morning"

I texted her at work that she was the most important person in the world to me, That I choose her over everyone else. She said thank you, that make her feel better.

I hope this is a step forward... and not just false hope.

Thanks to all who post. We need each other as we move down this road.

Happy for you,

Just take it slowly, make her feel safe, let her process it all, she will get it soon enough, for now be her safe place to land.......

Expectations will get you in trouble, keep them in check and be patient

Quick question...

Does Marriage Builders still have weekend get aways? I looked but did not see them listed.

Post a link., that may be my best shot at getting her to get fully on board with MB concepts.

No, but if you go to the MB home page you will see (at the bottom) the home-study course. Feedback here is that the matieral is the same, and outcome is great.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6021_needst.html

Also, all the home study courses now include the online seminar! This is a NEW addition! I believe MB no longer does the get aways. I can 100% recommend the Family Life Weekend to Remember. Extremely effective supplement to your MB program and would certainly have a HUGE impact on a wayward. It changed our life and available througout the US. Google it. I wouldn't hesitate to attend with a wayward, or in the beginning of recovery or just as a refresher in good marriages. Of course MB must be implemented asap, but this is a great way to recommit!

We signed up for the Online Seminar Accountability Program in June. It uses same materials as the home study course, but we were assigned a coach who keeps us on track with the lessons and answers any questions that arise. Also we can post questions on the private forum.

The seminar that you can see online whether you sign up for the accountability program or the home study courses is taken from the "old" weekend seminars. Better, though, because you don't have to fly there or get a hotel. And you can watch them over and over in the privacy of your home.

The courses, taken either way, are the absolute best marriage program out there, hands down, in our opinion. It's based on logic and research. If followed, it really can lead to a great marriage. It's all solid, no soft squishy stuff like we've seen in other books and programs. Better than any marriage counselor we've ever had the misfortune to hire.

Just a rant.....as the Holiday Season begins.....is it normal ( I am hoping ) to see everything as the first since D Day? My logical mind tells me, first Thanksgiving since DDay, first one without OM in her phone and on her mind.... The bad side says, this could be the last one.....I hope not.

Hope everyone is having a great weekend.