I found this website by accident but after reading many of the posts, i realized I was not alone in my situation. I am a 58 year old male who has been involved in an affair with a 46 year old co-worker for 6 years who is recently divorced. She has 2 children ages 10 and 13. My sons are grown and on their own 26 and 30. The 30 yr old and his wife are expecting their first child in Mar 2012. I have been married for 32 years to a wonderful woman who has been a great mother to my sons. As I read Dr Harleys "How do affairs begin" it was like he was writing about me. My wife has never felt comfortable being intimate, even though we did have 2 children, sex to her was something that is not something she has ever gotten pleasure from. I on the other hand have always had a strong sexual appetite. She does not have any physical issues and I suppose her views of sex are the result of a strong Baptist upbringing and her very religious parents. In addirion she has gained some 40+ lbs over the years and has very low self-esteem about herself physically. She is ashamed for me to even see her naked. She has recently lost about 30 lbs but would like to lose 20 more. I had suggested possible plastic surgery to help her become more confident about her body and hopefully would become more receptive to sex, but even then I doubt it without the help of a sex therapist. With all that background, you can guess how I ended up in the situation i have been in for 6 years. What started off very innocently soon turned emotional and then physical. My co-worker is very attractive, slim, and gave me plenty of attention when we were together on business trips. In essence, even before the sex, she was everything I desired from my wife but was never able to have. My co-worker's divorce is finalized this month and she knows there is no future for the 2 of us and wants to begin dating other men. I want her to be happy and I would like to salvage my marriage. Right now I am very very hurt as I know our affair is coming to an end. Over the years I have fallen in love with her but know there is no future for us. The pain in my heart right now is tremendous. I cant think clearly at work and I am moody and distant when I am home. I have no one to talk to so I have turned to this forum for advice and comfort. How long will the pain last? What should I do? Whats to keep this from happening again? My wife did find out about the affair 5 years ago but has thought it has been over. What a mess Im in. But at least I know others have survived and I want to be one of them. Any advice or words of encouragement would be appreciated.
Thanks
Welcome, GW6. Oh dear, this is a mess you've gotten yourself into, isn't it.
The good news is that there is a way out of this! But you're going to have to do some hard work. And that work involves being honest with yourself and everyone around you. That's where it starts.
If you have been reading here, you probably know what comes next. You will have to come clean with your wife and family, as well as your employer.
You will have to stop working with this woman. The only way you can recover from an affair is to end all contact with her FOR LIFE. Are you willing to do that? This will mean that one or both of you will have to leave your job.
Let us know if you are willing to end all contact with her - we'll go from there.
I would strongly encourage you to tell your wife today. That is the first step is making this right. And I want to give you hope that if you will do that, and bring her here, we can help you find the love you want in your marriage.
I want to clarify to you the reasons you had an affair. It is not your wife's fault you had an affair and I would caution you about telling her any of the things you said here. [in conjunction to the affair, that is] The reason you had the affair is because you have poor boundaries around women. There is no other reason. If your wife met your needs 110%, you would still have affairs if you had poor boundaries. So, please don't tell her that she is to blame. She is not.
And more importantly, I would have a plan NOW to end all contact with the OW. You can't work with her anymore and one of you has to leave the job. You do realize this, right?
p.s. once you tell her, I would send her here so we can help her.
GW6,
Affair with..co-worker for 6 years who is recently divorced.
You need to apologize to her H you played an active role in destroying his marriage, no matter what his Wife told you.
She has 2 children ages 10 and 13
I don't know how you can ever make amends to them,
God Bless
Gamma
Ditto what Gamma said. It is very likely that you are the cause of the divorce. You need to apologize to that man and explain the situation so he understands that there was adultery in his marriage.
Still with us, GW? I told you that there was going to be some work involved.
Im still here. Just thinking about the advice and comments. As with any affair there are many other facts that were part of the whole relationship. Had I not been a participant in the affair, would they have gotten a divorce? Chances are 99.9% certain they would have. While there was not any evidence of physical abuse, there was plenty of verbal and mental abuse. Friends and relatives had urged her to leave him before I came into the picture, but she stayed for the kids. Pastoral couseling was not successful and pastor even suggested the marriage was not salvagable. For fear of being piled on, I will say with complete honesty that pursued me as aopposed to vice versa. I am not defending my actions because they were absolutely wrong, but I do not believe I was the reason for the divorce. Have since found out she had a couple of one night stands during last 6 years also.
GW6
She lied to you! I am a BH and I know first hand the lies that come from a wayward. Her BH probably got sick of the neglect that she was putting him through because she concentrated fully on you NOT her own husband.
She destroyed her own marriage and probably is going to destroy yours if you don't ACT right away and listen to these peoples advice.
Don't make excuses! What you did what the **edit** thing you could ever do to your wife--for better or for worse-remember those vows--your wife obviously did..
Im still here. Just thinking about the advice and comments. As with any affair there are many other facts that were part of the whole relationship. Had I not been a participant in the affair, would they have gotten a divorce? Chances are 99.9% certain they would have. While there was not any evidence of physical abuse, there was plenty of verbal and mental abuse. Friends and relatives had urged her to leave him before I came into the picture, but she stayed for the kids. Pastoral couseling was not successful and pastor even suggested the marriage was not salvagable. For fear of being piled on, I will say with complete honesty that pursued me as aopposed to vice versa. I am not defending my actions because they were absolutely wrong, but I do not believe I was the reason for the divorce. Have since found out she had a couple of one night stands during last 6 years also.
I had to erase what I wrote because my blood is boiling right now. I will come back after I have calmed down...
Dont disgree with you PTH. Thats why I am trying to reach out here for advice and comments from those that have been on both sides. I am willing to to take my lumps and do believe now I was lied to very convincingly.
Im still here. Just thinking about the advice and comments. As with any affair there are many other facts that were part of the whole relationship. Had I not been a participant in the affair, would they have gotten a divorce? Chances are 99.9% certain they would have. While there was not any evidence of physical abuse, there was plenty of verbal and mental abuse. Friends and relatives had urged her to leave him before I came into the picture, but she stayed for the kids. Pastoral couseling was not successful and pastor even suggested the marriage was not salvagable. For fear of being piled on, I will say with complete honesty that pursued me as aopposed to vice versa. I am not defending my actions because they were absolutely wrong, but I do not believe I was the reason for the divorce. Have since found out she had a couple of one night stands during last 6 years also.
I went back and struck everything that was fogbabble, GW. Many waywards really don't know when they're speaking fogbabble, so I want you to be aware when you do. I put in red the ones that weren't fogbabble. Just so you can see the difference.
Dont disgree with you PTH. Thats why I am trying to reach out here for advice and comments from those that have been on both sides. I am willing to to take my lumps and do believe now I was lied to very convincingly.
You're getting distracted by foggy crap again, GW. The point is NOT that she lied to you! The point is that you chose to have an affair with her! Do you not see this? Do you think her honesty or dishonesty factored into your affair?? If she hadn't, as you feel, LIED to you, would you not have had the affair??
You're foggy, GW. Do you see this?
You chose to believe her because it was a comfortable way to assuage your guilt. If a married man came to me and told me he was in an awful relationship, I would say
a)Fix it, or leave then
b) I dont discuss intimate relationship details with members of the opposite sex
and..
c)Oh btw, I'm married too and adultery is WRONG.
If you aren't able to recognise where you have told yourself lies and made ridiculous justifications, you arent going to be able to get yourself out of this fog.
You will just manufacture more.
The next time things get difficult, youll just tell yourself another comfortable story so as to be able to duck your conscience.
You need courage and honesty, not excuses.
Such as: Are you willing to own up to this poor man about how you helped his wife destroy their marriage?
Im still here. Just thinking about the advice and comments. As with any affair there are many other facts that were part of the whole relationship. Had I not been a participant in the affair, would they have gotten a divorce? [s]Chances are 99.9% certain they would have. While there was not any evidence of physical abuse, there was plenty of verbal and mental abuse.
Whatever did or did not happen in their marriage is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS, sir!
There are TWO victims here, your poor BW and POSOW's BH.
You did something that you had no right to do...regardless of the state of their M and regardless of anything POSOW's BH might have done.
See how this is going to work? By YOU taking responsibility for YOUR actions and you don't rationalize it away by saying but POSOW's BH did XXX or my BW did not meet my needs, blah blah blah.
That type of blameshifting doesn't fly here, sir.
Have since found out she had a couple of one night stands during last 6 years also.
Yes, we already know she is a liar and a cheater and a person who will do what feels good at the expense of others. But then again...you are not any different.
Now, are you ready to put down the crackpipe (OW) and doing what you can to save your M?
Because I don't see much to show that you are serious...and there is not much we can do to help you if you don't go NC and tell your wife THE TRUTH about her life and how you have been hurting her behind her back...
Whatever did or did not happen in their marriage is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS, sir!
Amen. One of the most painful things about being a betrayed spouse is you just KNOW your other half has whined about you, laughed at you and told lies about you.
My WH told the OW I was 'boring' right in front of me, and later on when I confronted him about it, he said it was a joke I had misunderstood.
IMAGINE the BS he told her when I wasn't around!
While there was not any evidence of physical abuse, there was plenty of verbal and mental abuse. Friends and relatives had urged her to leave him before I came into the picture, but she stayed for the kids. Pastoral couseling was not successful and pastor even suggested the marriage was not salvagable.
With all due respect, that all sounds like the typical bullcrap rationalizations we hear on this forum every day from wayward liars. Your OW is a spouse abuser who abused her husband for some time. Adultery is more abusive than physical assault, so it ludicrous to suggest that your affair with this woman had nothing to do with her divorce.
And of course "pastoral counseling" was not successful, she was in an active affair and very probably lying to them both. Not that pastors even know how to save marriages, they don't. The point is that affairs are devastating to marriage, so you should be willing to accept some of the responsibility. Certainly you are not under the illusion that your affair did her marriage any good?
We are willing and able to help you, but we need for you to get honest. And saying that your affair had nothing to do with it is dishonest.
[/quote] Adultery is more abusive than physical assault, so it ludicrous to suggest that your affair with this woman had nothing to do with her divorce.
[/quote]
I am a long time lurker and have never posted or even registered (until now) but just had to comment on this... I strongly disagree with the above statement. While adultery is abusive, cruel and terrible I don't believe it is worse than physical abuse. Physical abuse can very likely lead to death of the victim whereas adultery, although very painful, rarely leads to death, coma, etc.
And no I am not a wayward but I am a battered wife so I know first-hand how damaging physical abuse is. And I have also been cheated on in my first marriage (why it ended in divorce) and it nowhere compares to the hell I live in everyday.
I am sorry if I seem to be defensive but this is a sore subject for me and I have been lurking here for years and have seen this said time and time again, and just wanted to share my perspective.
I am a long time lurker and have never posted or even registered (until now) but just had to comment on this... I strongly disagree with the above statement.
Sorry, but many folks disagree with you. I also know first hand how damaging physical abuse is and would rate my XH's adultery as the more traumatic experience. Most people do, in fact. I can't even remember being physically assaulted, I will NEVER forget my XH's affair. Women who have been raped, assaulted or had children killed consider adultery to be the worst thing that ever happened to them. Dr Harley says in his practice, they consider it the WORST thing to happen to a person.
You can disagree, but many others, including Dr Harley, a clinical psychologist, will disagree with your perspective.
That is fine, I am not here to dispute Dr Harley or anyone else. I respect this program and Dr Harley which is why I have been around for years reading and listening to the radio show. I personally would rather be cheated on everyday of the week rather than be physically assaulted or lose one of my children whether that makes me in the minority or not. I will go back to lurking now... sorry for the thread jack.
I strongly disagree with the above statement. While adultery is abusive, cruel and terrible I don't believe it is worse than physical abuse. Physical abuse can very likely lead to death of the victim whereas adultery, although very painful, rarely leads to death, coma, etc.
blueheart, welcome. I'm sorry that you are living in a violent marriage. I'm sure that you are in pain. But I agree that adultery is far worse than being physically abused. I was sexually molested over a long period of time as a child. Guess what event was worse. My H's adultery.
If you are in a violent home, I implore you to waste no time getting out of there. You CAN leave.
The honesty here is brutal but appreciated. I am beginning to see some of the excuses and rationalizations i have used to justify the affair. I am ashamed of what i have done and want to move forward with re-establishing a loving relationship with my wife. I am willing to take all the criticism you can throw at me but is there anyone out there that is ready to give me advice on how to move forward? Is Dr Harleys services a good place to start? What about local marriage counselors? They just seem a dime a dozen. How do you know you are going to get one that can really help?
I found this quote from Dr Harley about this issue. I also wanted to point out that people can and do die from adultery. [indirectly] We know of people who have committed suicide and others who have committed homicide. So yes, people do die in the fallout from adultery.
"After having counseled thousands of couples with hundreds of marital conflicts, I am completely convinced that a spouse's unfaithfulness is the most painful experience that can be inflicted in marriage.
Those I've counseled who have had the tragic misfortune of having experienced rape, physical abuse, sexual abuse of their children, and infidelity have consistently reported to me that their spouse's unfaithfulness was their very worst experience. To be convinced of the devastating impact of infidelity, you only need to go through it once."
here
Thank you for the welcome marital. I am also sorry you have been thru what you have. I understand that my view is different from most and maybe it is simply because this is what I am going thru currently. I in no way meant that adultery isn't hurtful or abusive because it is. I have been in that boat too.
As far as leaving him, I am making my exit plan as we speak and have been for some time. Maybe I should start my own thread, I sure could use some guidance right now. Anyway, thanks again.
The honesty here is brutal but appreciated. I am beginning to see some of the excuses and rationalizations i have used to justify the affair. I am ashamed of what i have done and want to move forward with re-establishing a loving relationship with my wife. I am willing to take all the criticism you can throw at me but is there anyone out there that is ready to give me advice on how to move forward? Is Dr Harleys services a good place to start? What about local marriage counselors? They just seem a dime a dozen. How do you know you are going to get one that can really help?
We are giving you advice on how to move forward. Getting honest is the first step. Traditional marriage counselors have an 84% failure rate and have no idea how to save marriages. They have a higher personal divorce rate than the general population.
The MB program is completely different in that its goal is to restore the romantic love to the marriage [traditional marriage counselors don't believe this is possible] and it has a very specific plan to achieve that. Those of us here who have used this program have romantic passionate marriages as a result. Some did the program outlined in Surviving an Affair at home, others availed themselves of phone counseling wtih the Harleys and some, like my H and I, went through the Marriage Builders program. When you sign up for the MB program, they assign you a coach and give you weekly lessons. There is weekly follow up to see if you completed the lessons and if you understand them. They give you tests on regular basis to make sure the program is achieving its goal, which is to restore the romantic love. IMO, the MB program is the fastest horse. It is pricey, $1000, but it is worth every penny. Many here have used it and we are extremely happy with the results.
Most marriages do not recover from affairs. They limp along in a crippled state of the pre-affair marriage, worse off than before the affair. But if you use this program, you don't have to be one of those statistics.
You need to establish extraordinary precautions for your wife.
When discussing EPs, Dr. Harley addresses that the following areas need to change:
A) Blocking all communication with Affair Partners (AP�s)
B) Accounting for all of your time
C) Accounting for all money
D) Spending your leisure time with your wife.
EP�s are put into place to protect your spouse.
Protection = Care
EP�s are also designed to ELIMINATE the opportunity to have a secret second life.
Ok, so let�s talk about two different categories you need to create in your list of EP�s.
The first category is a list of one-time EPs that you will need to make sure you complete quickly.
The second category is a list of EPs that you will follow for a lifetime.
So let�s start with the first category items.
(what follows are SUGGESTIONS, remember this is going to be YOUR list)
Category #1
A) Change cell phone number and give password & account access to your spouse.
B) Change email account.
C) Eliminate all social networking accounts (i.e., Face book, Classmates, My Space, etc.)
D) Take a polygraph
E) Make a copy of my vehicle keys and any other keys my spouse does not have and give to them (i.e., safe deposit boxes, business keys, storage cabinets/lockers, etc.)
F) List out passwords for all business and personal computer logins, and any other passwords my spouse does not have access to.
G) Give my spouse access to any banking/financial accounts, business and personal.
H) Install software that tracks all internet use, giving my spouse administrative access.
I) Install a webcam/security cameras for while at work that my spouse can access.
J) I will contact an attorney that will work on my spouse�s behalf and write a post-nuptial agreement.
K) Sell the house/purchase a new one.
L) Sell any vehicle AP was in and replace them.
Some of these things you may have already done. But these are one time things that you set up and they stay this way with little or no maintenance.
Include completed items on this list as well as items still in process on your list.
Category #2 is a little more along the lines of EPs that you need to maintain on a continuous, consistent basis.
A) I will protect my spouse and their feelings above all else.
B) I will not participate in any one-on-one meetings with anyone of the opposite sex.
C) I will not discuss my personal marriage issues with anyone of the opposite sex.
D) I will not attend clubs, strip joints, or any such establishment
E) I agree to use POJA as a basis for all decisions.
F) I will be open and honest with my spouse at all times about the past and present.
G) I will provide my spouse a daily schedule of all appointments and contact information.
H) If I need to make an adjustment to my schedule, I will notify my spouse of the change immediately.
I) I will make my spouse�s phone calls my highest priority by answering them or returning them immediately.
J) I will avoid all chat rooms, porn, member sites, etc.
K) I will trade phones with my spouse at any time they request, NO questions asked.
L) I will leave my phone accessible to my spouse at night/or anytime I�m home.
M) I will commit to at least 15 hours of undivided attention with my spouse to meet each other�s ENs every week (time working together does not count toward those 15 hours).
N) If AP finds a way to make contact, I will immediately end the contact and notify my spouse about it immediately after.
O) I will install a keylogger, GPS, or any other tracking system my spouse may request.
P) Anytime I have the thought, �I don�t want my spouse to know about��.�, I will call my spouse immediately and tell them my thoughts.
Q) Anything else my spouse wants as a boundary.
Use this as a starting point for working further on your EPs. Add and change items that suit your situation.
Whatever you do, put your list together and post it on your own thread and then allow for some feedback from those that have been through this exercise. We want you to perfect your list before offering it to your spouse. There is so very little that a wayward can truly offer as compensation for the huge amount of damage caused by such a selfish act as adultery that we want to make sure this is done well. The continuation of your marriage is riding on these actions!
GW, start with this article:
here
Once you Establish EPs that make her feel safe you will then need to start the marital recovery.
1) NO CONTACT FOR LIFE WITH OW (DESTROY ANYTHING ASSOCIATED TO OW IMMEDIATELY)
2) COMPLETE HONESTY WITH YOUR WIFE
3) ESTABLISH EPs
4) READ SURVIVING AN AFFAIR TO ESTABLISH THE FOUR RULES TO A SUCCESSFUL MARRIAGE
Successful Marriage a) Rule of Care
b) Rule of Honesty
c) Rule of Time
d) Rule of Protection
The honesty here is brutal but appreciated.
Call it Tough Love.
GW, you're in the best place you could possibly be right now, although you may feel on the Hot Seat more than once before it's over. We don't dislike YOU - we HATE that you've damaged your precious marriage in such a cavalier and uncaring way! We want you to be a success story! You can do that if you stay with us and really listen AND ACT on what we have to say, okay?
Having said that:
is there anyone out there that is ready to give me advice on how to move forward?
What do you mean, "is there anyone out there that is ready to give me advice on how to move forward?" ???? Go back and read the first post that was made to you - that was from me, and I told you what you needed to do to get started on recovery. And there were more posters after me, saying the same thing.
I want you to explain why you asked this. I told you in my first post: You and/or the OW need to leave that job. You CANNOT WORK TOGETHER. You must establish complete NO CONTACT with her!
You need to come clean to your poor wife and explain the reality of her marriage for the past six years.
You need to call the OW's ex and explain to him that your affair with his wife spanned a period of six years and more than likely caused the demise of their marriage. You stuck your nose into someone else's MARRIAGE, GW - did you think there would be NO repercussions from that?? Did you think the affair was a 9-5 deal, where the OW forgot about you until the next work day? Your affair poisoned their relationship and became a toxic part of their marital fabric.
After you tell your poor wife about your adulterous actions, expect shock, tears, anger, and more. Tell her that there is a place online that can help her, and send her here. Tell her you've been here and told us about your affair, and we want to help her.
I told you there would be some work involved. It's going to be tough, but it's worth it. Now. Are you going to do it, or not? Because if you're not willing to do the heavy lifting required, let me/us know now.
Thank you for the welcome marital. I am also sorry you have been thru what you have. I understand that my view is different from most and maybe it is simply because this is what I am going thru currently. I in no way meant that adultery isn't hurtful or abusive because it is. I have been in that boat too.
As far as leaving him, I am making my exit plan as we speak and have been for some time. Maybe I should start my own thread, I sure could use some guidance right now. Anyway, thanks again.
Excellent idea, blueheart! Please start your own thread. I look forward to reading it - there are many here who can help you.
... Had I not been a participant in the affair, would they have gotten a divorce? Chances are 99.9% certain they would have. While there was not any evidence of physical abuse, there was plenty of verbal and mental abuse. Friends and relatives had urged her to leave him before I came into the picture, but she stayed for the kids. Pastoral couseling was not successful and pastor even suggested the marriage was not salvagable. ...
Sir, you played a role in ending another man's marriage. A man who, chances are, had never done you any wrong. Please don't do yourself the further indignity of trying to downplay that role. The main point is, you should never have had any role whatsoever to begin with. OWN this.
Fact is, their marriage was hanging on before you came along. Maybe not thriving, yet breathing all the same. But she sure wasn't investing in her marriage while she was conversing with & shagging you, was she? You sure weren't helping her to invest in her marriage.
You don't have a chance of saving your own marriage until you start fully OWNING your stuff, and this is just one of the many things you'll need to own & live with if you ever want to become the kind of person to whom your wife might want to consider giving another chance.
I have walked in exactly the same shoes you're wearing. My OW's marriage broke up. Yes, she'd had another affair before me. Yeah, she made the first moves. And yeah, she confided that her husband was a workaholic, inattentive, a drinker, that she'd thought of calling it quits, that she'd slept with an ex-BF of hers out of frustration, yadda yadda & etc. But so what? It wasn't my business to be listening to any of that. I should never have played any role in their marriage at all. None.
You & I haven't even started talking about your wife. How do you figure your investment of time & energy & attention on OW affected your marriage? How do you think thay may have affected your wife's willingness & interest in opening up & being vulnerable to you? Do you think you've been giving 100% to your marriage while you've been in the affair? 75% Maybe less? And here you are, feeling so bad -- not about how you deceived the girl who took your ring on her finger, but about not seeing a way forward with your affair partner? Really?
You're in luck, 'cuz I am gonna hang out here and dog you on every piece of b.s. that comes out of your mouth here, until you start owning your stuff. You can get out of the affair & you can help make your marriage better than what you had before. But are you up for it? What's your goal here?
GW6,
If you read nothing else first, read what GloveOil is posting to you.
What will be harder than owning your stuff in the mirror every day in the short term is seeing GloveOil in the mirror every day if you care to listen.
Man up and accept his and everyone's help, please.
The pain in my heart right now is tremendous. I cant think clearly at work and I am moody and distant when I am home. I have no one to talk to so I have turned to this forum for advice and comfort. How long will the pain last? What should I do?
Sorry you're here, GW6... but this is the place you need to be. MB principles can save your M, as long as you stay the course precisely (the very narrow path to recovery). You have to follow it all.
Your withdrawal from your A will be difficult, as you've already predicted. Your BS needs to understand what has happened and what you're going through. You need to tell her about the A. It will be devastating for her.... and it will be devastating for you, once you fully realize what you've done to her. You don't fully understand that now, but the pain will be fierce.
So when does the pain go away, you ask? It never goes away, because it will change from what you think you're losing now to what you risked losing for 6 years.
I do hope you will stick around here for advice and encouragement. Follow MB, and get through your withdrawal. Expect for the whole process to be a lot of hard work.
Best...
grace
I just realized that GloveOil's on this thread... GW6, stick around and learn! If anyone can help you out of the fog, he can.
Reading the direct posts from gloveoil and others, I would have expected to feel angry from the things that have been said...but I am not. Everytime I read and re-read the previous posts I begin to see the past 6 years from a little differently, from the point of view of other BS. I know it will be difficult and painful to begin the healing process with my wife but it will be worth it. Am considering early retirement since I simply cant leave a company with 35 years of service. I realize I must avoid all contact with the OW. Recently I have moved to another city and we are no longer in the same Division which does not cause our paths to cross for business purposes any longer. However as everyone here knows you can make "opportunities" to get together even if the work environment does not provide such. I am committed to eliminating those "opportunities" so she can pursue the relationship she has recently developed with a divorced doctor. Someone she has told me can take care of her. I am trying folks. Keep up the encouragement and the direct criticisms. I deserve it and I can take it. By the way, I am not familiar with all the abbreviations and acronyms. Can someone point me to the meanings?
I would strongly suggest apologizing to the OW betrayed husband (BH).
You never know what may come out of you gesture. If he isn't remarried and the OW isn't remarried there may be an opportunity for them to heal with each other as long as you stay out of their lives forever.
We have seen it happen on the forum throughout the years.
Link to the list of commonly used Marriage Builder forum abbreviations:
MB abbreviations
I have been reading along. Get out of the fog.
You should not be "eliminating those "opportunities" so she can pursue the relationship she has recently developed with a divorced doctor. Someone she has told me can take care of her."
If you still are looking at it as you nobly backing away so she can move on, then you don't get it. You had no business there to begin with.
You are married. You are doing it to start honoring your wife.
When will you be telling your wife?
but is there anyone out there that is ready to give me advice on how to move forward?
The FIRST STEP has been given to you over and over. To recap from the first page of your thread:
If you have been reading here, you probably know what comes next. You will have to come clean with your wife and family, as well as your employer.
I would strongly encourage you to tell your wife today. That is the first step is making this right.
and there is not much we can do to help you if you don't go NC and tell your wife THE TRUTH about her life and how you have been hurting her behind her back...
As a wise poster has written here before: It's the lies that are the real poison arrows.
The rest of it doesn't matter if you don't MAN UP and tell your wife the WHOLE truth about her life. Today.
Sorry, T/J
BlueHeart, it is your experience that your abuse hurt more than cheating. And that is your truth and that cannot be wrong. ((((BlueHeart))) Do start your own thread.
end T/J
Sorry, T/J
BlueHeart, it is your experience that your abuse hurt more than cheating. And that is your truth and that cannot be wrong. ((((BlueHeart))) Do start your own thread.
end T/J
staytogether, of course, different victims will have different experiences, but when Dr Harley states that adultery is the "worst thing that can happen" to someone, he is making a generalization. A generalization is based on a
majority of instances. In Dr Harley's professional experience, with the
MAJORITY of people, adultery is the MOST PAINFUL experience. A generalization takes into account that there will be exceptions, but those exceptions do not negate the rule.
That does not negate her experience as she negated the personal experience of others [which was very offensive]
I strongly disagree with the above statement. While adultery is abusive, cruel and terrible I don't believe it is worse than physical abuse
The point of my statement was to express to a very entitled, cruel wayward, how very destructive adultery is so he would not continue to minimize and justify his behavior. Waywards need to be reminded that they are
AS abusive as wife beaters and rapists so this guy has some amazing chutzpah accusing this skank's husband of "abuse." This discussion is a distraction from that goal and I hope it is not your mission to further disrupt the thread?
I understand it might be upsetting for a wayward to see themselves compared to a wife beater or a rapist, but it is a reality check they need.
Yet your BW (betrayed wife) is still in the dark? That is the first thing you need to do...expose the affair to your wife.
... I am committed to eliminating those "opportunities" so she can pursue the relationship she has recently developed with a divorced doctor. Someone she has told me can take care of her. ...
Could we go back to the question & a theme I posed in my previous post? Namely: What's your goal here? And what about your wife?
In your posts, I see more words devoted to the other woman ("OW") than to your wife. What about your wife -- the woman to whom you promised "forever"? What about her feelings; how she's doing today? How do you feel toward her right now? Most of what I'm hearing from you is about your mistress.
Your mistress wasn't some great lady. Figuratively speaking, but in a very real way, she mugged your wife. Your mistress decided that your wife didn't mean any more than the old chewing-gum stuck on the bottom of a shoe. As far as your marriage was concerned, OW was a thug -- just as you've been to her marriage. Ever heard it said that there's no honor among thieves? Why honor her in your thoughts & motivations?
You're supposed to be honoring your wife. When did your wife stop counting? Isn't it time you put her on the front burner? (Yes, if you're to revive your marriage, she'll need to do some things to put you on the front-burner too; but that can't be a condition for your actions.) And OW needs to be off the stove & out of the kitchen altogether. She's not your future. (About that much, at least, you're correct.)
Early-on after my affair, our marriage counselor put my wife & me onto the book "Surviving An Affair." I don't get a penny for saying so, but we learned things in there that may well have saved our marriage. Those things were not just mere facts to be learned & discussed passively, but consequent actions that we were able to take; actions that can -- indeed, must -- be taken by you in order to give you the best shot at having the kind of marriage you wanted, back when you & she were starting out & today was way off in your hazy future and you never imagined you'd have deceived her the way you've been doing lately.
That is, if that kind of marriage is your goal. I still don't know what you feel about your marriage & about the other person in it. Would you care to elaborate?
A parting word of advice for this evening: You might want to think about dropping your "nobility complex." You're not doing some worthy deed by stepping out & letting this "damsel-in-distress" pursue her dreams -- not anymore so than when a mugger who's been beating his victim with a tire iron drops the tire iron after his victim has limped away. Stopping the affair for the sake of saving your marriage is a first step toward regaining a smidgen of nobility, someday, if you persevere and care for your spouse and work on your marriage and make it better. That will take time. But you can't cast a veneer of immediate nobility upon ending the affair simply or primarily out of consideration for freeing your fellow marriage-mugger, your partner-in-crime, to pursue her latest romantic dreams. "Noble" is not being a thug or a jerk in the first place. Simply ceasing to be a thug or jerk doesn't qualify us for nobility. As my father says, "You can rub & rub, but you can't lay a shine on a turd."
Marital recovery is hard work! If your main motivation is out of consideration for your mistress, you ain't gonna make it, and you'll cause your wife lots more added grief in the process.
So, what is your goal, GW6? And what is your motivation? Those aren't merely rhetorical questions -- I'm interested in your answers here.
That does not negate her experience as she negated the personal experience of others [which was very offensive]
I strongly disagree with the above statement. While adultery is abusive, cruel and terrible I don't believe it is worse than physical abuse
I am sorry but I do not see how I negated the personal experience of others or how I could have offended anyone with MY opinion. I said that I, me personally, do not believe adultery is WORSE than physical abuse based on my experience with the both of them. I believe I also stated that that my opinion was not meant to minimize others feelings but to express a different perspective, that is all. I also said (which is in the quote you used of mine) that adultery is cruel, terrible, abusive, etc. Again, I was just stating MY personal opinion and thoughts. I am sorry to have disrupted this thread yet again but wanted to address the above statement.
Also, I would like to add that I appreciate that others' opinions and personal experiences differ from mine. However, I feel like I was somewhat attacked for having a different view. MelodyLane your first post to me was dripping with disdain because I happened to be the exception to Dr Harley's findings. Even saying that I was offensive by stating my opinion. I find this attitude to be very off-putting which is precisely why I have never posted here before yesterday. I will happily go back to lurking and stay off the boards.
Blueheart, yes, please start your own thread , I would like to post to you. Having been a BW and abused wife, I understand and feel the same as you. (((blueheart)))
AW
Also, I would like to add that I appreciate that others' opinions and personal experiences differ from mine. However, I feel like I was somewhat attacked for having a different view.
blueheart, all you are saying here is that it ok for you to disagree with others but not ok for them to disagree with you. Sorry, that is not how it works. After all, you signed up for the sole purpose of disrupting a thread by disputing a generalization made
quite often by Dr Harley.
[a generalization, of course, takes into account that not ALL experiences will apply] I find that very offensive, especially on a thread where we are trying to help this man save his marriage.
Would it be ok if we got back to helping this man?
Let's stop the disruption and get back to helping this poster. If you can help this poster with Marriage Builders, please do. Otherwise refrain from posting. Don't disrupt this thread any more.
I know it will be difficult and painful to begin the healing process with my wife but it will be worth it.
It will be more difficult and painful not to do it.
Tell your wife. Step one.
Been a couple of weeks since I first posted. Wife and I are both in coaching/counseling with Steve. Mainly private sessions for each of us so far but just completed the full blown Emotional Needs and Love Busters Questionaires. What an eye opener for me. I'm beginning to come out of the fog! For the first time in a long time I realized that my answers to the qurstionaires would have been a lot different for the OW! Reviewing the 6 lover busters, I could only seriously think of 1 that was an issue fir my wife and I. However I attempted to answer the questionnaire as idle me and the OW were married. What a difference in my answers. There would definitely be several love bustv�ers that would create serious problem for us. Beginning to exit the fog!! Thanks to all that haven given healthy advice.
As a BW, I am a little saddened for your BW that you even thought about filling out the LB one with OW in mind.
I am glad however, that you have seen that DrH is right, and WS's affair DOWN. Your wife is and always was so much better than OW. It was only your fogginess from an addiction to OW that caused you to believe otherwise. That is a good thing.
Now, get on with recovery.
Reviewing the 6 lover busters, I could only seriously think of 1 that was an issue fir my wife and I.
Seriously?
(Remember, I'm a FWS as well)
Let me help you;
Selfish Demands; You haven't selfishly demanded that you be allowed to have your needs met by another woman for the past 6 years? You were so selfish that the Other womans husband thinks it was just a bad marriage, when in reality his wife had been banging another man on the side,,,, and that's not selfish?? Seriously, thats not selfish? Your whole life has been nothing but selfish demands at others expenses! Seriously?
Disrespectful Judgments; You mean to tell me, you haven't considered your wife overweight and felt she lacked sexual drive.... Not to mention that it's possibly just her religious beliefs that cause her lack of sexual appetite.... Those aren't DJ's though, right? Seriously?
Angry Outbursts; Didn't ever use these to gas light your wife? To control her? To emphatically deny you were cheating, lying, deceiving, etc... Seriously??
Annoying Habits; Being distant, emotionally, physically, mentally, and spritually, because you're giving the best part of yourself to someone else every single cotton pickin day for 6 years! Ya don't think that's an annoying habit of yours,,,, just for starters! Seriously??
Independent Behavior; Huge LB of yours if you carried on for 6 years. Come on! You made every possible independent decision you could in order to protect your OW and the wonderful affair your had. Your wife was manipulated by you daily in order for you to keep up with your SECRET, SEPERATE LIFE STYLE! Seriously???
Dishonesty; 6 YEARS OF LIES! Nothing about your life has been honest for 6 YEARS.... NOTHING!!! Nothing about your marriage has been true for your wife for over 6 years.... Seriously!!!!
YOU have been a walking, talking, Love Buster for six, stinking, years.
The reason you only see ONE?? Your life of deception has become normal to you..... You are still deep in the fog,,,, keep walking, there is a light at the end of the tunnel...
I hope the fog continues to clear and that you continue to coach with Steve.
I'm just wondering though, why is your wife still interested in keeping you around?? Do you know why?
HerPapaBear,
You completely didn't understand my post. When I completed the LB questionnaire it was how I viewed my SPOUSE NOT ME! I'm sure our next session with Steve will reveal her thoughts about me. Until then I have decided to stop anymore posts. Our relationship is much more complicated than the few comments I previously posted. **edit** Sorry if I touched a nerve. From now on I'll leave the coaching and counseling to Steve and not this forum.
Adios
GW, did HPB hit a nerve?
Since you will allow SH to continue the coaching(which is a VERY good idea), what I would LOVE to happen is that you tell SH that when you filled out the LB questionnaire that you also filled one out for OW. Let him know that so he can help you STOP thinking about OW.
HerPapaBear,
You completely didn't understand my post. When I completed the LB questionnaire it was how I viewed my SPOUSE NOT ME! I'm sure our next session with Steve will reveal her thoughts about me. Until then I have decided to stop anymore posts. Our relationship is much more complicated than the few comments I previously posted. **edit** Sorry if I touched a nerve. From now on I'll leave the coaching and counseling to Steve and not this forum.
Adios
GW,
I've been following your posts but haven't posted. I think what everyone here is baffled about is why in the world you would fill out an ENQ for your mistress. One of the worst things you can do in recovery is compare yourself or W to the AP.
CV
CV, I wasn't baffled, I am APPALLED. I do believe that SH could help GW through that, if he is honest with SH.
I don't see the reason for all the bashing. Many a time people will take a test not to compare but to confirm what they are thinking.
In this case to confirm that the OW was not all that he thought she was.
Poster is working with Steve, and it appears it is not enough for some people.
Better to use a 2x4 instead of a log.
It appears many skip the log and go straigt to swinging the whole Log Cabin with stone fireplace and chimeny.
It appears many skip the log and go straigt to swinging the whole Log Cabin with stone fireplace and chimeny.
Road, It's kinda like the Wizard Of Oz, a house dropping on the wicked witch ain't such a bad idea from time to time..... I had more than a few land on me yanno!
G, I wish you well! FWIW, You didn't hit a nerve on my end..... But I think I hit more than one with you or you wouldn't be so quick to run.
So G, from your own analysis, of your own lovebusters, in your opinion, was I right or wrong?
GW6, did you confess the on-going nature of the affair, or have you led her and Steve to believe the affair was over 5 years ago? When you originally posted, we advised you to confess to your BW that the affair never ended. Did you do so?
For all the bashers...I never said I filled out a LB questionare on the OW. Road understood what I was saying. As I was completing it on my wife, I was thinking how different the answers would have been had I continued the A. It made me realize the OW was not everything I thought at one time. It confirmed what I finally began to realize. Have had NC with OW for several months. Yes SH knows as well as W. Nope...sorry to disappoint all, u did not hit a nerve with me, just feel my W and I will get more out of sessions with SH than from this Forum. If it make u feel better to bash me with a 2x4 then ok...OUCH! move on to someone else.
Isn't this a little overly dramatic? I read through this thread and see no "bashing." I see some very thoughtful, helpful posts. You are not a victim, hun...
GW6, did you tell your wife the truth about your affair? You strangely don't mention doing that.
I wasn't "bashing" either. I was just pointing out to a WS the perspective of a BS on what his update was about. The fact that GW is working with SH and had such a foggy response to the LB questionnaire made me cringe. It made me think that he may compare his BW to OW in other ways which will actually have OW on the winning side. And THAT would be bad bad bad for recovery.
GW should be avoiding ALL thoughts of OW, not comparing her to his BW, because there is no comparison. Even without knowing his BW, I can say that she is better than OW will ever be. Just saying.
GW6, did you tell your wife the truth about your affair? You strangely don't mention doing that.
He said he did. You probably missed it, because he dropped it in as part of a bigger post and didn't discuss it at all. He said he told both her and Steve, and then moved right along.
I'd like to know what his WW had to say. I'd also like to know if she would be willing to post here.
The fact that GW is working with SH and had such a foggy response to the LB questionnaire made me cringe.
I was thinking that myself...
Call it 2x4's, 4x4's or 8x8's..... IMO, It's just fog clearing.....
When I arrived here I would have been eaten alive had I posted anything remotely close to what you have posted...
Listen, I'm sincerely happy to see you and your wife coaching with SH. The Harley's are the best at helping couples through infidelity.
I'm sorry you took offense to my earlier posts...
My true intention was to smack you in the head.... I have no qualms with that, and if you're honest with yourself, you deserve much worse than I or anyone here could ever dish out... You deserve the same thing I deserved, and I deserved to be run over by a Mack truck again and again...
That being said;
If you want coaching, call SH..... If you want help out of the foggy thinking, post here and take your 2x4's when needed. Remember, you'll receive a great deal of admiration when you've accomplished something admirable, just like with most waywards that post here, it comes in time.
But when I and others see fog, we're gonna shine some high beam lamps on the post in order to help you clear it out..... I'm quick to help waywards, after-all, I was one once as well, but I'm just as quick to call bull when I see it.....
If you feel you can handle it, go back through your thread and answer all the questions each poster has asked, without being defensive. There really are a few you've missed. It really does matter to us when we ask questions and they are not answered. And if you have questions,,, ask!