In the studies and years of experience with Dr. Harley's work what is the percentile of men who have moved from having many affairs in their marriage to becoming monogamous? Married 23 years, children college age,separated 8 months,he is currently having affair with subordinate,says he is looking for new job, I am hanging on to plan b and he keeps pushing for plan c He says he wants our marriage but needs the new job first. After getting new job , he says he will do Dr. Harleys plan for recovery. Should I even entertain getting back with him-we can get divorced after 1 year apart. I want to believe in Dr. Harleys marriage building steps and that they will make our marriage work. But there is that inner voice that says are you crazy? How many affairs has your husband had? He will never change. Can a person change their whole prediposition? What is the likelihood? What has Marriage Builders seen? Do I gamble another 2 years of my life on this?
We have several serial cheaters here who have transformed their marriages, but it takes a radical 180 change in lifestyle. And a radical, nuclear exposure.
In your case, I would not even consider it until he gets a new job and gives up all overnight travel and makes his life so transparent that it would be impossible to cheat. One suggestion would be to work TOGETHER all day.
But the fact that he is is "currently having an affair with a subordinate" tells me he is not even remotely serious.
Have you exposed his affairs wide and far?
I am hanging on to plan b and he keeps pushing for plan c He says he wants our marriage but needs the new job first.
Yes, he wants your marriage, but also wants his affair. He is hoping he can get away with keeping BOTH, which is why he wants Plan C. Your husband is not serious in the least and should not even be considered.
If I were you, I would stay in Plan B, expose the affair wide and far and FILE FOR DIVORCE. You win either way with that plan. If he does make a dramatic, 180 degree change, you can consider dropping the divorce. And if he doesn't change, you will be divorced. You win either way.
he is currently having affair with subordinate,says he is looking for new job, I am hanging on to plan b and he keeps pushing for plan c
Your H is just saying this in order to persuade you to break Plan B and speak to him. He is not interested in doing the things to recover his marriage. Or he would be DOING the things necessary to recover your marriage.
I would shut the door tighter and file for divorce. There is nothing here to save.
I understand your your response because I am thinking along your terms. Thanks for the reinforcement. One question is why would he linger in Plan C? To have his cake and eat it too? I need to figure out a plan B. That really safeguards me from him.
I would simply tell him that you cannot have anything more to do with him if he is still in contact with his OW. If he wants to save the marriage he is going to have to grow up and accept the responsibility of the marriage.......
Then I would simply say please do not contact me if you can't give our marriage your only attention, go see a lawyer and start the ball rolling show him you are serious and then go NO CONTACT yourself with your WH.............
Unless he meets your terms he will never change and you will never be happy......
jessi
I understand your your response because I am thinking along your terms. Thanks for the reinforcement. One question is why would he linger in Plan C? To have his cake and eat it too?
Absolutely. Almost EVERY WS tries to remain in Plan C because they want both.
I need to figure out a plan B. That really safeguards me from him.
Exactly. And we can help you with this. Go to the notable posts section and look up the thread titled "How to Plan B correctly."
I I need to figure out a plan B.
Do you have Surviving an Affair? There is a plan B letter in there that should be sent. The plan B letter is very important so I would suggest posting it here and letting us help you with it. It will be the last thing your WS sees before you go dark so it is important to be clear, meaningful and concise. We will be glad to help you with it.
radical, nuclear exposure....your comment on the topic of exposing his affairs. I have only exposed this last affair to our children and our friends which I did once he moved out. Should I tell them about all of the other affairs? If so, why?
radical, nuclear exposure....your comment on the topic of exposing his affairs. I have only exposed this last affair to our children and our friends which I did once he moved out. Should I tell them about all of the other affairs? If so, why?
Absolutely. I would tell everyone. I would most especially expose the affair to his company and to the OW's family. Expose to all your parents and ask them to speak to him. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so exposing them is ruinous. It is also the best way to make a wayward to see the error of his ways. The more people who know, the more people to support you and the more people to hold him accountable.
Exposure is the most potent weapon against affairs. BAR NONE.
"Exposure is very likely to end the affair, lifting the fog that has overcome the unfaithful spouse, helping him or her become truly repentant and willing to put energy and effort into a full marital recovery. In my experience with thousands of couples who struggle with the fallout of infidelity, exposure has been the single most important first step toward recovery. It not only helps end the affair, but it also provides support to the betrayed spouse, giving him or her stamina to hold out for ultimate recovery.
I would send a formal letter to the Director of Human Resources, a key VP and both your H and the OW's supervisors. [cc all of them so none are tempted to throw the letter away]
To Whom It May Concern:
This letter is to bring a matter to your attention that may be a violation of your Company's Code of Conduct and/or other policies, procedures and business ethics.
WS and WS are involved in an extramarital affair that is taking place, primarily, in the workplace. Aside from the potential sexual harassment claims this situation presents, it also involves the inappropriate use of company resources and assets. WS and WS are using company time and company resources to further their affair. If you check the call histories on their office and cell phones along with their workstation computers, you will find the two of them are spending an inordinate amount of what should be productive work time to further their sexual relationship.
If you have any questions, please call me at xxx-xxxx. Otherwise, I will anticipate a response from you once you have investigated these concerns and taken appropriate corrective action.
Regards,
BS
Then send a private message to the OW's family and friends on facebook. Copy and paste all her contacts into a WORD doc and prioritize them based on family relationship, marital status, and send them all a PM that goes something like this:
Dear family and friend of Skankyhola,
I am writing you this message to enlist your help in persuading Skanky to end her affair with my husband, Joe WS. Joe and I have been married for 27 years and have 2 very heartbroken children. Joe has left home to pursue his affair with skanky. This affair has been ongoing since XX-2010 and started in the workplace.
I am asking that you use your influence to persuade her to leave my husband alone. My husband has said that he wants to work on the marriage but we need your help in persuading her to leave him alone.
I would happy to provide the evidence to anyone who asks. Please have her parents call me at XXX-XXX-XXXX so I can speak to them personally.
Thank you for any support you can provide,
Mrs Knowing
I will re-do my exposure. I did not touch on some of those approaches.
Last year, after reading Mr. Harleys books
I did expose the affair to family and my children (told and showed them the plan b letter) and meet with his boss just before my h moved out. Being a small company his boss just basically told them to stop. I went ahead into plan B and my h said he wanted to work the marriage out and that the affair is over.(We know that is not true as long as they work with one another)
Currently, my h said he is trying to get another job. He says it is tough out there to get a new job.......he wants to support his kids in college..... etc.Blah Blah Blah
He has read Dr. Harleys books and says he is in the fog. And he knows he will be there until he gets a new job. And he knows this means daily pain for me until he has no contact with the OW at all. Being in the fog, he still engages in not disclosing everything and independent behavior and all the other fog related behaviors.
I tell him Plan B until he gets a new job. He pushes plan c as I have said. I am writing today I guess to get the confirmation that I just need to start a divorce and move in that direction. Keep moving and if the 180 turnaround comes out of him then we can look to recovery. As you said. Thanks.
Dr. Harley talks about the fog for the wayward, what state does he ever use for the betrayed? I feel like I am in a state called the DARK. It is like a spell?
I tell him Plan B until he gets a new job. He pushes plan c as I have said. I am writing today I guess to get the confirmation that I just need to start a divorce and move in that direction. Keep moving and if the 180 turnaround comes out of him then we can look to recovery. As you said. Thanks.
knowing, what is your understanding of Plan B? It sounds like you still speak to him so I am not sure what you mean. Did you send him a plan B letter? Does he KNOW what Plan B means?
Also, who is this OW and have you exposed to her family members?
He pushes plan c as I have said.
And what is your understanding of Plan C? What does he push exactly? What does he want?
Knowing,
I have lots of empathy for you. I'm in much the same place as you: long-term marriage, adult children, and a husband who has had multiple affairs. Hope you have a good support system and can stay strong in plan B. Do what you need to make a good life for yourself, independent of your former life with WH.
A WH who has betrayed you multiple times should not be trusted, no matter what he says. He may even believe his words himself, but until he has actually established NC with his AP, there's no reason to even listen to his words.
Easier said than done some days, I know. Work on healing yourself from your WH's betrayal. If he ever demonstrates his ability to commit to a monogamous marriage with you, you can decide if you want to take the risk of trying to rebuild.
Can a person change their whole prediposition? What is the likelihood? What has Marriage Builders seen?
Dear knowing:
You might want to take a look at my thread, as I think it's a little unique.
My husband (CGIR) began having affairs after we were married for less than two years and finished his last affair in 2010.
I think we are a unique in that I didn't get the truth about these affairs until a year ago last week. My period of "trickle truth" didn't last for weeks or months; it spanned our entire married relationship.
I also think we are unique in that we did not start with a foundation of an intimate relationship that we could then return to after the affairs. CGIR had a private life for just about thirty years and I had a "fantasy" life (fantasy meaning unrealistic, or conjured, not "dreams come true") for that same time period. It turned out that I did not know him at all, and my thoughts and feelings never mattered enough to him to get to know who I was.
We're trying, and he's working hard. He's trying to "get it right" and does a lot for me.
Schoolbus seems to think there is real change. She spent a lot of time posting to him and me when we first started posting here.
Truthfully, though, "if I knew then what I know now," I don't think I would have stayed. Most days it still feels too hard.
It's really hard to live without safety or trust.
But, if you read my thread, you can see what Schoolbus said about hypotheticals.
Good luck.
BV
knowing,
(waves to bv)
I am in a marriage that has experienced multiple affairs. Let's count:
He has had:
Two one-night stands
Left me once for three months for an emotional affair he had (and the OW in this case never even gave him the time of day LOL)
One EA
One PA that lasted about 3 months or so (the most recent one)
I have had:
One ONS
One EA
So.
Can a marriage be repaired after all of that???????
Yep.
In your case, and in your situation, what you are asking is, "Can a person really change?"
and
"Can two people repair a relationship after so much damage?"
Two different questions there.
I will answer the second question first: Yes. Two people can repair a relationship after so much damage. The trick is that both people have to recognize their own contributions to the damage, be willing to openly admit their faults, be willing to CHANGE, and to actively participate in changing - with an open interactive conversation regarding those changes taking place as an ongoing part of the package. There has to be a plan, the two have to know where they are taking the relationship, and they have to understand that this will not happen overnight. Patience, mutual respect, and lots of conversation are important. Basically, follow the MB plan, and you can hardly go wrong.
The second question....Can people really change?
Of course. Well, there's an old joke:
Q: How many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb?
A: It doesn't matter - the light bulb has to really WANT to change.
Anyway, in life, we change every single day. It happens so slowly that we don't really notice it. Consider your own self at age 14. Then at age 18. Then age 22. Keep going, skipping 4 years each time, until you get to your age today. Have you changed?
Do you see fundamental changes in yourself? Of course you do. You have changed what you value, what you thought you needed in your life, core ideals in some cases, even perhaps changed your opinion on quite controversial topics that you thought you would never change.
People undergo radical change all the time. People begin committing crimes late in life, who might never have done so before, and shock their families and friends when they are arrested. On the other hand, hardened alcoholics stop drinking and go sober and never drink again - completely changed - and also shock their friends and families.
So when we talk of change, we think "he will never change". The truth is, "he is always changing", perhaps just not changing the things we want him to change
Work Plan B. Go very very very dark. Let him suffer the consequences of his behavior. If he has any chance of saving himself, Plan B will secure your love for him while he pulls his head out of his rear end.
SB
How many affairs has your WH had?
Can anyone lead me to a thread that covers the basics of how to approach a divorce? How to find the right attorney? And the best process (ie at fault,mediation,collaborative) in order to get the best outcome, money wise? Lots of alimony! Not giving it all to an attorney either. Websites? Does Dr. Harley have anything on this? And how to tell the children?
Look at the Divorce/Divorcing Forum
SB
Thanks for the input. I will go dark on Plan B as you say. And I will look at attorneys. I just asked questions on that.
WS must come to the table with a new job (away from OP who he will never contact again), go through withdrawal, be totally transparent. Wow! And then be fully committed to working the MB plan with me.
I guess the WOW! comes into play because I am looking at WS thinking he can not even tell the truth nevertheless accomplish the above. A true 180 change.
When asked how many affairs I am ashamed to answer because there is a part in me that feels responsible for them. Yes I know it was his choice in every situation but I stayed with him after each. Always hoping things would get better: obviously never having the right tools. I feel deep down "once a fool always a fool" to have ever believed him. That scares me even now about considering a future with him. "Fear"
SB I think it was you who wrote on a thread about exposing the A and how the anger and a blow up by the WS is normal. I would love to reread it but can not find it again. Do you recall this thread?
The anger and blow up after exposure are common. Just expect it.
I did write recently about that...can't remember where! lol
I will look for it
My H has had numerous affairs. You can change your marriage.
You do own some of the blame for the state of the marriage that set the stage for the affairs. The choice to have affairs belongs to your husband, and is 100% his fault. While your marriage might have needed work, the solution did not include finding another person and having sex with her. That just did not help the marriage, did it? NO. It made matters worse, not better.
It made you believe you needed to change, and you did things to work on the marriage - and you felt guilty. That guilt is misplaced. You did nothing wrong, your husband did. Guilt is what you should feel when you do something wrong. You did not have an affair!
In the past, when your husband had an affair, you probably worked very hard on yourself, trying to fix what you thought was "wrong". You did things, and he just continued on. At first, he acted sorry, did a few things to "make up", and then after awhile things laxed back into the way they were before the affair.
That's the mistake. The situation prior to the affair is not really addressed - so the marriage does not get changed! What ends up happening is that another affair occurs, because nothing gets solved. The affair might end, but the situation that led up to it remains.
Marriage Builders concepts addresses this issue. Use the concepts here, and you actually can SOLVE the problems that lead to the affairs.
Read the concepts. Use them.
the anger about exposure is on honeyandsage thread
but you can find it on lots of threads, because it is a very common reaction.
expose the affair!
Widely, and be kind when you do it.
"My husband and ________ are having an adulterous affair. I want my marriage to survive. I love my husband, and would love nothing more than to have the support and love from my friends and family in this difficult time. Please support marriage, and I ask you to please discourage this affair. As you stood up for us at our wedding, please stand up for us now in our time of need as a couple. We are facing a terrible trial, but with the love and support of everyone, I know we can make it through this. I believe in my husband, I believe in our love, and ask that you join me in the fight for my marriage."
You don't bash him, you don't bash OW. You ask for support for MARRIAGE, and you play on their support for the concept of love and marriage and family.
Nobody can say you were bashing anyone. You are upbeat, yet exposing.
You do not put anyone down, you are asking for help and love and support.
You will get it.
SB
Having an emotional day because I answered the phone when the WS called. He said he is going to get a new job away from OP. He wants our marriage. I said okay let me know when that happens. No AO just said it to the point and hung up.
I know I must just continue on in life until he can come to the table.
A basic question about this site? I see a few spouses who are both on here each having their own posts. Is there a way for both to be on the forum but not be able to read each others posts? I do not see a privacy tab.
Has it been seen that the chances of success in MB increases having both on the forum?
**edit** Sorry you're having a rough day.
I am putting the questions below out there again for an answer. Should I even tell my spouse about this site and encourage involvement?
A basic question about this site? I see a few spouses who are both on here each having their own posts. Is there a way for both to be on the forum but not be able to read each others posts? I do not see a privacy tab.
Has it been seen that the chances of success in MB increases having both spouses on the forum?
It is generally advised that you don't tell the WS about the site until you are sure that the affair(s) are stopped, and that the WS is on board for recovering the marriage. You probably need to keep this site as your safe place for advice and venting for now.
knowing, you don't want to bring a cheating spouse here. It will make it impossible for us to help you.
But you can leave Surviving and Affair lying around the house. The nearer the toilet, the better, and I don't mean that as an editorial comment.
Well today I reread SAA and I am feeling a bit overwhelmed with thought of the actual transformation our current marriage would have to go through to be in a romantic state. It could take years. Maybe I am looking for an excuse to leave the arena! And run!
Then I have the disrespectful judgement: could my WS ever change his personality traits? Especially those that prop open his love bank allowing other women to make a deposit? like flirting?
That's not a DJ, it's a legitimate question.
He would have to show you through lots and lots of consistent actions. If he won't, then you have your answer.
Addictions are something else in how they cloud a persons thought process. My WS called me last night at 1:30am to wake me up, which he has never done before, to say he is sorry for all the hurt and pain he has caused me. That he wants our marriage and he wants to get back together. I asked, do you have a new job? He said no and that he is looking for one with less travel. I said it has to have NO travel.(Not sure if he gets that part.) Then he said he misses me and wants us to work on our relationship. I said that is impossible with the OP still in your life because once our relationship starts to take work you will take the easy road back to the OP. I just said you need to take ACTION, your words are of no value as they were devalued while in the fog.
Question, does a WS stay in a fog of some sort-heavy or light-until they no longer have contact with the OP? Like my WS says his affair is over, is he still in the fog as long as they are contact?
The withdrawl? What personal experience can someone tell me about that? Does the WS need to really look at drugs to get thru it? And is it hard during that time to keep the WS from contacting the OP? Needing that next drink? This withdrawl time seems scary like you would have to be parked on Dr. Harleys backdoor step to keep all intact.
I CAN NOT let myself accept the same situations I have accepted in the past after one of my WS affairs. It all has to be the MB way, this time. I do not want to look back in 3 years saying I should have left, while confronting a new affair. THIS is hard for me to want more for myself and my marriage, I AM NOT USE TO IT! Does that make sense to anyone? Anyone ever had that for themselves? Maybe this has something to do with how I grew up...the last of 4 children.....not expecting much from others for my happiness? Or I have just accepted it as a norm in our marriage not knowing any differently. Thank God I found MB. I want more...I want a great marriage with my WS or not one at all.
This is why you should be writing him a letter.
(Plan B letter)
Spell out exactly what is expected of him.
And let HIM figure it out. Put some responsibility on him.
I see a WH who has latched onto this "fog" idea as a way to be blameless. It wasn't me, it was the fog.
He needs to start taking personal responsibility for his actions. He needs to start repairing the damage he's done.
Not just pacify you with apologies while he CONTINUES the actions that hurt you.
He hasn't done anything special. Calling you in the middle of the night to say he's sorry? Big deal.
Quitting his job. That would be noteworthy.
Look for ACTIONS not WORDS. Words are easy.
Yes, he will be socked in deep fog until NC has been in place for a while. Once NC has been implemented, he will slowly begin to defog if he does not continue to be triggered, like if he had to drive near her home to get to work or something like that.
Not every WS needs drugs to cope with the withdrawal, though it is always hard for them. They have to be committed to get past it.
GOOD FOR YOU for no longer being willing to accept what you had. You're worth it!
Spoke with some family members tonight to expose about the affair. They think I am crazy to stay with the WS. They say they could never see forgiving such an act. I explain the just compensation idea and Dr. Harley plan to restore a marriage.
I know some of you have recovered with the plan so it is good to talk to you for support. Because my family looks at me like I am in a crazy state of mind.
Go easy on them.
Until you've been through it, you just can't understand until you see the end results.
As I remain in Plan B I am starting to question "Is my WS a man who is capable of becoming a faithful husband in a trusting marriage relationship?" Or is he a "bad" man behaving badly who inheritantly will always remain to do so. (Just read a book on this topic.) It is the multiple offenses-affairs-deception- that makes me look at this.
I am sure this is a normal feeling. Has any of you felt this and what helped you to look past multiple affairs in order to consider doing the marriage plan with Dr. Harley? Where do I get the confidence to give our marriage/him another opportunity? Being vulnerable again is scary? Is it not my doing? Must I just wait for my WS to create the safety I need? But again, how do I determine if he is just a "bad" apple? Please help me with this struggle.
knowing,
You ask if your WS can change.
People can change. Of course they can. The basis of change is built into our brains, from the standpoint of neurological structure. We learn, therefore, we change. Each thing you learn is brought into the brain, and the brain uses the information to form new ideas, new links, and based on those, new behaviors emerge. We just cannot avoid change.
John Knowles said it in French, in the book "A Separate Peace": "Nothing endures, not a tree, not love, not even a death by violence."
What he was talking about was that very concept of change. Whether it is change through physical growth (the tree growing, aging, and then dying), or change in the way we carry our emotions and relationships (how love begins, matures, becomes settled in our lives, has its ups and downs), or even how the most tragic events change over time in our minds and memories (for example, the process of initial shock, then our denial, then anger, then ultimately, acceptance, and perhaps over time how we may become more able to look back at process the event with slightly less pain as time begins to erode that initial shock).
So change occurs. Your question is more about whether your husband will make the changes necessary to save the marriage; will he stop the affair behavior; will he make the fundamental changes to himself that keep resulting in his choices to have affairs; WILL HE CHOOSE TO CHANGE?
Frame the question to him that way.
Because the fact is, he will change - one way or the other. He may continue to be a serial cheater, and change so that he is more difficult to catch. He may change to better meet your needs, but continue to have the mindset that he was "entitled" to his affairs, and still blame you for his affair choices.
The best outcome is what you have said, "I want a great marriage with my WS or not one at all."
You can have that. Your WS has to become a FWS, has to learn the concepts, take them in as his way of life, understand the idea that he must protect his marriage from future affairs, own his affairs as 100% his....you know this. The hardest part for you is that you know it, and you can lead him to the water but can't get him to drink!
ARGH
So you are stuck and possibly looking at a Plan B, if your WS is stuck at the revolving door eating cake.
Withdrawal is hard, and if you can hang in there, be consistent, you can come out fine. Stay consistent in your message, which you have been doing.
He can change.
You can save the marriage. And you are also right - it will take a couple of years, once he is on board.
It is worth it.
SB
Schoolbus,
It is worth it!? You say?
Does anyone have a post on what a couple has experienced in their marriage after reaching the goal of a Mr. Harley based marriage? Jon and Sue in SAA do not give their final account. Some inspiration like that would help me! I am holding onto hope so tightly.
My WS needs to change his current career path- the only one he has ever known- in order to remove himself from exposure to OP and to make a recovery possible (no traveling, home every night).
With WS in the fog. I even question his capability to reason with himself to make such a milestone change in his career path. What will bring him to that point of decision?
To think, he was willing to throw everything (marriage,career, family and friends) away for the A. Just crazy! Irrational like Harley states.
Schoolbus,
It is worth it!? You say?
Does anyone have a post on what a couple has experienced in their marriage after reaching the goal of a Mr. Harley based marriage? Jon and Sue in SAA do not give their final account. Some inspiration like that would help me! I am holding onto hope so tightly.
Hi Knowing,
Sorry, I have not read your entire thread. Just wanted to share some hope. There are quite a lot of threads where couples have successfully survived an affair TOGETHER using MB principles. Schoolbus herself is one of them I believe, although I have not read her thread in its entirety. Check out princessmeggy's (more then one affair from memory and she admits her response was not conducted on MB principals initially), sexymamabear (and her FWH herpapabear), Mr and Mrs Wondering, Neak, just to name a few (and sorry for others who I have overlooked, feel free to chime in).
One thing I would suggest is to look at the bigger MB picture. Jon and Sue do not give their "final account"... because MB principles should be practiced for life in order to affair-proof a marriage and keep the romantic love alive. It is not a matter of simply surviving an affair, but ensuring it NEVER happens again.
Knowing, I just read your thread... your WH is quite the cake-eater from the sounds of it!
Have you sent the Plan B letter? How long have you been in Plan B?
Plan C needs to be taken off the table.