Hi everyone,

This is my first post, so bear with me, it has been a rough month . I am seeking guidance on next steps in my situation.

Summary:
Wife seems to have began EA in early spring. I dismissed lots of signs, e.g. she started seeing psychologist for depression and to explore issues, told psycholgist she was even suicidal, spent lots of time on computer all the time at night and during day (stay-at-home mom), grew distant, etc. She visited her parents in August, spent the month brooding and then she and this OM met for one night, after in her words receiving a sign from God and her dead father. She then returned home and dropped the bomb, e.g. he is my soulmate, I have never loved you, lots of metaphysical stuff, etc. I reacted as you might think, crying, begging, shocked. This went on for about 3 days until I buckled down and began to focus on different approaches and stopped the begging, did some thinking and tried to address the issues to make myself a better husband so she would reconsider (spending time with kids, a few 180s, etc.). She said she wants to move to this other city (did not admit OM at first, this came later, as I will explain below), but I resisted and tried to get her to consider closer options including staying in our current place (rented). We spent about 2 weeks in sort of a holding pattern with her pushing to leave, me resisting, me on and off traveling for work, kids sick (which is probably the only reason she did not leave). The on Sept 30 the bizarreness got more bizarre, so bear with me.

My wife called me at work that day and begged me to come home to talk. I of course rushed home, with a feeling of dread mixed with hope, and determined to have an �as if� attitude regardless. Well, I can honestly say I did not expect what happened. My wife sat me down and very directly told me she had to tell me something important, and that even though our marriage is over she wants my forgiveness and wants me to understand the big picture for closure. She had been in contact on Skype and e-mail the last few months with an old boyfriend from college whom I actually have met a couple of times about 15 years ago. They had not been in contact for years until earlier this year and an emotional affair seems to have developed. This culminated in apparently one night physically together during her August trip and then her decision that this relationship with this man was meant to be, and this she had to end our marriage to �stop living a lie� in her words. He is(was) on his second marriage, each marriage with one child, and he was not going to leave his wife and 2 year old, but my wife wanted to go live in the city where he lives and apparently they would continue their affair but now more physically.

But this did not stop there. It got more bizarre. The guy was in the hospital from about one week after the bomb drop until the end of the month for an appendectomy. My wife had been hesitating to go and see him but did not because the kids have been sick and I was traveling. Well, he died in the hospital on Sept 30. My wife acted devastated and I have ever seen her so crazy and depressed. I did my best to validate and comfort her, did not judge her and told her I have already forgiven her. She talked for about 1.5 hours, told me all this, including the metaphsical stuff about eternal connections, etc. with me listening about 95% of the time. We then went to have lunch together, held hands a little (she reached for mine for comfort, and would then quickly pull away after a few moments). She cried during lunch, we then went walking, and she went into a cathedral to pray by herself before we went home. It is hard to believe that was only about one week ago, as it feels like I am in a hundred year of solitude since then. She is calming down day by day, we do have some good family moments, but the yo-yo goes up and down of course, with one day nice, the next day she is attacking me, pushing to leave and take our kids to this other city, etc.

Now she says she is still determined to move to this other city where this guy lived and she has lots of old friends, but she sometimes has begun to waiver and consider living in our current city but in seperate apartments. I know these people also, her old friends, but only through my wife and only casually. These old friends all know about this already, and I guess this is her support system for this (together with her psychologist it seems). My wife has even called his two wives to express sadness and she expressed the idea that she is connected to both of his biological children spiritually. My wife has always been somewhat spiritual, but she was speaking a lot of craziness about how maybe they will reunite in the next life, they were meant to be together, she was connected to the universe, this was God�s plan, she felt a cold moment at his passing, etc. and she wants now her own home and to get away from the city where we now live. She reiterated that she cannot live with me, she no longer loves me, cannot live with me as it makes her crazy, and that her decision is unchanged regardless. She again talked about death (she has done this death talk before if you recall) and how she had to live her life now, and that does not include me. She asked me to buy her a small apartment for her and the kids in this city. I did not agree or disagree.

We then talked again about our 2 kids, and I pushed other options, including a separate apartment for her here, etc. She did not waiver, but the question is still open, as I have not backed down. She has now told her mother nothing about this affair or any of it and instead planned to tell her mother only once she had moved to the other city and she was with this guy. I also told her as her friend (and she said last week she wants us to be friends and trusts me with money matters, etc.) that she does not need to be making such life-altering decisions right now and she is clouded with grief. Of course she said she has no grief and accepted his death already, it was meant by God, she is seeing things clearly, etc.

So since then, last week she admitted she did used to love me, just not anymore. She refuses to change her mind that the marriage is over and in her words "wants to move on with her life." She has read a book called Radical Forgiveness and I saw some worksheets where now she is working on forgiving me last week for all the ways I have let her down (mainly not being involved enough in child-care, being focused too much on career, neglect, not being there for her in some key moments, etc.). I think she is right on these things up to a point and I have really been focused all this last month on being a better dad to my two wonderful kids to prove I can change.

I am at a bit of a loss about next steps. I see that she now reminds me of my brother a bit in her actions and with this drama (he has a 10 year drug addition demon he battles), in that she is like an addict withdrawing from this affair. My hope is that she will calm down, becme rational and reconsider our situation, but for now she is not willing to try (her words). She did ask me the day after the death if theoretically we could continue and if I had forgiven her. I said yes on both counts, but then she went crazy again and has continued saying we are done. Reasoning does not work it seems.

Anyway, advice and guidance would be appreciated. On one hand, she has had to quit the affair cold turkey. On the other hand, it was not her desire to do this obviously. I do not want to have false hope since the OM is gone, but I also do not want to have false despair.

Blackhawk

Hi and welcome, you will get better help in the Surviving An Affair forum. If you click notify and ask one of the mods to move your post across then they should be able to do that for you.
Sorry for what you are going through.

Hi Rosycheeks,

Thanks for the advice. I see my post has already been moved. And also, thanks for your kind words.

Blackhawk

For a starters phone her mother and let her know of the affair even though the OM has passed away her mother best know the truth.

This is the hard part , if your wife is in contact with the OM's widow she is using her grief to further her fantasy . If either ex wife does not know of the affair , tell them in the gentlest of ways and give them the full update you gave us.

Your wife is still in the fog of the affair and as the OM is now dead she is using this to further her emotional link to a fantasy .

Are your children older than four or five if so sit with them and tell them the truth of her affair and why she is trying to break the marriage.

You need to shatter her illusion and people around her must see her attempts to destroy the marriage for what it is , she is still deeply in the fog.

Don't agree to her moving out , don't subsidise her apartment , make it clear if she moves the children stay with you .

+ 1 with Xau

I wouldn't wish death upon anyone but that is at least two or three times where I have seen a POSOM die......

You are quite right that she is going through something like a drug addiction withdrawal. If there's a way to keep her close for a couple of months longer and you continue to be there for her as well as keeping your good changes, she will eventually be able to get her bearings. It sounds like you are doing the right things if she hasn't actually left yet. I noticed that you stated that you had to travel with your business. Dr. Harley states that even one night apart is detrimental to a marriage, and I think any travel without your wife, especially at this time, would be very counterproductive to winning her back.
It sounds like you are doing the right things: hang in there! It seems you are aware of some of her important needs and are working on meeting them. I think the estimated time for this phase is about 3 months when there is no contact. Any visit to the city or interaction with people that knew him would be a form of contact for her. She may not realize it, but these people aren't support for her, but rather reminders that drag out her withdrawal phase. (I wouldn't tell her this, just know it for yourself: logic will not persuade her right now).
I just now saw where she asked for you to get her an apartment for her and your children. If possible, don't let this happen, but if she insists that she has to move, the children should stay in the marital home with you.

"She did ask me the day after the death if theoretically we could continue and if I had forgiven her. I said yes on both counts, but then she went crazy again and has continued saying we are done. Reasoning does not work it seems."

She was just checking to see if you still loved her. And can now continue to look at you as her back up plan or second choice. As you said reasoning doesn't work. The only thing that works is self respect. You see, you don't require much from her. Such as fidelity or accountability. I wish I could explain just how unattractive a man who will not stand up for himself is to a woman, especially a wife. Instead of being the man and protecting your marriage (even from your wife). Oh and be sure to remove or protect her from any consequence of her actions. Buy her that apartment. Don't make her work. coddle her fantasy. Don't have any plan to repair your marriage. Just let her FEEL her way through this. I am sure her feelings won't steer you wrong.

Adultery is crime and inaction is its accomplice.

Here is an idea. Tell her if she leaves its her choice. But its your choice as to how you spend your money. First off you want an apartment? Get a job. Next, regarding you taking the kids anywhere....yeah,not gonna happen, I have contacted a lawyer to get a court order that you can't leave the state with the kids. You need to find yourself? I have gotta great place to look, the real world. Yeah with all its bills and stresses. You think you can do it better without the support of a husband? Think single motherhood is something you want to experience? Fine. But it WILL BE without the support of my finances or emotional support. I'm spending those assets on my kids and myself. Man at least then she knows you have some self respect. And surprise! That's attractive to a woman.

Welcome, Blackhawk, sorry your circumstances have led you here.

Question: Have you confirmed that this guy is actually dead? I'm not saying he's not, but...verify.

Have you personally talked to his other wives?

Does your WW understand that, if she pursues this separation, she will not be taking the children out of their home, and that she can petition for visitation with the court? I mean, she doesn't have the hare-brained idea that she's going to take your children to another city and away from their father, does she? I would disabuse her of that notion immediately. I would suggest you let her know that you will be filing legal separation to protect yourself.

And that business of buying her an apartment for her and the kids? Um. No. First of all, she's not taking the kids with her. Second, you're not going to finance her single lifestyle.

Your WW is living heavy in the fog, Blackhawk. She needs a dose of reality. I suspect a steady dose of that will kick the legs out from under this new-age, hearts&flowers, metaphysical garbage she's laboring under right now.

Hi Blackhawk, welcome to Marriage Builders.

Your wife is in what we call the "fog" around here. She is high on the addiction of a sleazy affair. Psychologically, it is very much like being high on alcohol or narcotics. Her rantings are about as relevant and meaningful as the babblings of a falling down drunk. So your first mission is to stop listening to the rantings of falling down drunk and start leading your family out of crazyville.

Unfortunately, your wife is driving the car [while drunk] with your whole family is in the car. If you don't take back the wheel your car is going to crash with your family in it. You need to take back the wheel, my friend. Start standing up for your family and protecting your kids from this crazyness.

The way to do that is to inject some reality here. She is lost in la-la land because she doesn't have anyone telling her how insane her choices are. She needs you to help wake her up.

I would start off by exposing her affair to her mother, friends, and family members. Tell them about her kooky plans and ask them ALL to speak to her and use their influence to persuade her to stop this nonsense and start working on your marriage. Evryone should know about her affair, especially any kids over the age of 4.

It is real important that you bring this out in order to kill her affair fog because if you don't she will be looking for "soul mate" #2 soon enough. She needs to hear from others how disgusting it is to have an affair.

Then set her down and explain to her that you want to have a romantic, loving, SAFE marriage and that you are not willing to settle for less and won�t stay in a loveless marriage. Tell her you are willing to give her an opportunity to earn your forgiveness. In order for the marriage to recover, certain things have to happen. This is what it will take to keep you interested:

1. no more nights apart or going out without each other - create a healthy, integrated lifestyle

2. complete transparency - cell phone passwords, etc

3. no more opposite sex friendships

4. complete honesty about her affair<s> � passing a polygraph

5. commit to a program of recovery that restores the romantic love in your marriage

Tell her "this is what it will take to keep me in this marriage." Whether your marriage ends up with success or failure will depend almost entirely on her willingness and ability to make radical changes. Her lifestyle must become absolutely transparent, holding nothing back. She is in no position to negotiate when it comes to extraordinary precautions, because those precautions are designed to prevent another affair and help you feel safe. She must also meet your emotional needs in a way that until now she has failed. Unless she makes a 180 degree turn in her approach to what it means to be a wife, your marriage won't recover, it will be a crippled version of your pre-affair marriage.

You have nothing to lose and everything to gain by taking this approach, because if she won't do these things, you will have lost nothing except a loveless, abusive marriage.

You need to burst this bubble real quick. Paint her a very ugly picture of how this is going to play out if she wants to leave. Let her know that you won't leave, but if she does she will not take the kids. Tell her you will file for divorce on grounds of adultery and will file for primary custody of the children and possession of the house. You will bring in evidence of her adultery into the divorce case so that it is on record. Tell her you will not be her "friend" and that it will be an ugly, ugly divorce where you will fight to pay her nothing.

There is a very important reason you need to tell her this. She imagines that you will roll over and help her acheive her fantasy. You need to burst that fantasy.

Your wife apparently lives on fantasy and surrounds herself with kooks who bolster this nonsense. She needs you to lead her out of this fog.

This is especially important for your kids. I am horrified that your kids have been led into this fantasy life. Has she been telling them stories about her "soul mate?" I shudder at the thought of what she has taught them. This is why I say if they are over 4 you need to be talking to them and giving them some guidance.

p.s. forgiveness is very inappropriate unless she earns it. She has not earned it.

Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?

A better solution is to give her an opportunity to earn it. By doing so, you give your marriage a CHANCE to recover. But handing out unwarranted forgiveness prevents that.

Thanks Xau for your quick reply. It is nice to be able to talk to some people that understand what this is all about!

About the widows, this happened the day after the death and not since. From what I heard, my wife was not welcome at the funeral regardless.

The mother thing is something I have threatend her with but have not yet done. I have been saving it in my back pocket.

I am not going to move out and do not plan to pay for her apartment. You are so right on those things of course, although it has taken me a couple of weeks to get to that place of thinking myself. On the children, we are in a country where parental rights almost always favor the mother (my wife is a US citizen and a citizen of this country, while I am only a US citizen, so this somewhat limits my legal options). What I have been pushing is minimum I want 50/50, and if she wants to go to this city, then I take the kids 100% and I am happy to do this since they have schoold, etc. here where we live now. She of course does not like these options, which is one reason we are now in a holding pattern. My income is paid in the US, and assets are hard to get to without her pursuing a US divorce which she is not thinking about. This means that I have a good shot at avoiding court ordered alimony if it comes to that.

Thanks finah.

BH, it is the same in the US, and many men DO get primary custody by introducing the instability of the wayward wife to the court. If she thinks you will just hand over 50/50, she will be emboldened to go forward. I would fight for primary and let her know you aren't going to settle for 50/50, but will go for 80/20 with no overnights and with supervised visitations only. That will wake her up!

And how does she plan on supporting herself and the children? Does she have a good job? I would strongly advise that you move your money to safe place and don't allow her to touch it without a court order.

Does the widow of the OM know that your wife is the OW?

Just wanted to point out that living in the same house is not "separated." That is living together.

Thanks LifetimeLearner for your feedback. I really appreciate it. The look in her eyes a few times when she said these crazy things to me ("you are nothing but a sperm donor!, you can't handle the kids by yourself!") was the same look in my brother's eyes when he was deep in his addictions. I had such a moment of clarity when she said those things above, it was like a lightbulb went off in my head with how similar her actions were to an addict justifying their addiction.

My strategy this far has been mostly from Divorce Busters, and I only stumbled on this website from someone that posts over there (I have not posted there). Frankly, I see alot of wisdom here and more of a tough love approach. My goal is to keep her living in our home and give her time to come out of the fog. It has been a battle as I am sure you know. The death of the OM I hope has given me a chance to turn the momentum more my way. I will not subsidize her apartment, but the kids can be an issue because of local laws (we live in a country where dovorce laws favor the mother). Anyway, i am shooting for 50% as a minimum and am willing to take them 100%, but she does not like that.

If your wife is having supernatural experiences with "dead people" it is critical that you, yourself know exactly what the Bible has to say about death.

I can 100% guarantee you that God would put no blessing on what she did, and would never send her a "sign" that it was ok. That only leaves one source.

And, if she is already seeing apparitions or supernatural signs, I worry that someone claiming to be OM may appear to her. (These things do happen far too often. Many of my relatives, and even AJ have been approached, and sometimes even attacked, by supernatural forces that were not from God.)

Follow every bit of the excellent advice you have been given, and add to that a spiritual battle on spiritual terms. Pray for God's protection on your family, and ask that He will help you defeat the enemy.

A few texts to get you started, but please do a full study until you are confident as to the source of any apparitions:

Genesis 2:7
Ecclesiastes 12:7
(Spirit in this verse is ruach, which means "wind", or "breath".)
James 2:26
(Spirit in this verse is pneuma, or "breath".)
Ezekiel 18:20 - Souls die.
Ecclesiastes 9:5-10
John 11:11-14
Acts 2:34
Job 14:12-15
Deuteronomy 18:10-12
(Those who consult with familiar spirits or try to communicate with the dead are an abomination. This is something your WW needs to stay away from.)
That's just a start. There is a bunch more information you will learn in your own study.

Again, follow all the fantastic advice you have received. That will be your best chance of getting your M back on track. Do not neglect the spiritual dimension, which is at a level I haven't seen before. And spiritual battles are fought spiritually.

Our family will pray for your family.

ouchthathurt, thanks for your candor, I realize you want me to man-up and you are right. I appreciate you pointing out that truth about the theoretical love comment. I am not going to support her on any move and will do nothing to accelerate or assist in this process. She has begun working part-time, but frankly her salary sucks and always will because of her career choice. It will be hard for her to make it by herself, especially if I refuse to help her. There are some local nuances (we are not in the US) that may be able to give me the ability to pay no alimony in this country (my salary is US-based). I do appreciate the bucket of cold water!

It is time to play that card if you are serious about saving your marriage. You can't afford to be complacent, Sir. Complacence will not save your family. Call her mother and other family and friends and tell them what she is doing. Don't make threats. Just do it. Ask them all to speak to her.

Hi maritalbliss and thanks for the warm welcome. I wish unfortunately that we would never have the chance to interact here, but God has dealt this hand and it must be played, so here I am! About the OM's death, I am rather certain about this.I do not know the wives, but I did hear the phone call when the first wife informed my wife.

On the kids, that is a conundrum since in the country where we live, she can get custody as the mother. Still, we have been around and around on this with me saying minimum I want 50% and that I would take 100% of course. She seems more and more open to living in our current city and we share them. I think she is starting to realize that the alimony thing is 100% under my control as I am paid in the US, not here, so local courts can give her nothing.

On the apartment, I am not going to do it, but I have sort of let it ride without giving a yes/no answer, and of course I do not plan to do this. You are so right.

BH, the thing is that unless you start taking a more proactive approach to saving your marriage, she will have another affair. Second and third affairs are not uncommon in marriages that don't recover. And since you have been wasting away over on Divorce Busters, I know there is no plan there. Having no plan is a plan to fail. Allowing her to linger away in her fog like this with no plan only serves to cement that state of mind. As long as she remains in a state of entitled fog, she will have no reason to return to the marriage.

All you will end up with is a body and not a marriage. Having her dead body in the house is not the same as having a marriage.

Isn't this sort of a ridiculous conversation if she cannot even AFFORD an apartment? How will she afford to fight you in court for that 50/50%? Does she have money for a hot shot attorney?

See, you have her by the balls and have the ability to squelch this fantasy real quick if you will just USE IT. But having these kinds of discussions with her, about 50-50 custody, only serves to FEED her fantasy. That has to stop. I would let her know you are not agreeing to 50/50 and CONTINUALLY POINT OUT THAT SHE DOES NOT HAVE THE MONEY FOR AN APARTMENT AND CANNOT SUPPORT HERSELF. Let her know you will fight for 80/20 since she is so unstable. And if she doesn't like that she can hire a hot shot attorney. Oh, and does she have the money to do that?

You have to let her know you will not cooperate with her at all. That will give her second thoughts about this fantasy. cooperating with someone whose goal is to destroy your marriage will result in a destroyed marriage.

I would deflate this apartment plan immediately. Let her know immediately that you are not going to finance her swingin' single life.

I would also suggest you move the family funds somewhere safe so she can't raid them. Waywards have been known to clean out the checking and savings accounts. They will also rack up huge credit card debt to get cash. Close all these avenues asap.

I didn't see where you specifically called OM's wives/friends to let them know.

Call them today so she will not be wanted in that new town especially around other husbands.

I'm a little confused. Why did OM's wife call your WW to inform her of his death? Did she know they were having an affair?

And have you confirmed that this guy is actually dead? Have you seen the obituary?

Neak,

I truly appreciate your support. I have not thought of it as you have, and it is serious food for thought and something for me to look into. I sincerely appreciate the prayers your offered.

BH

Thanks for receiving my advice in the spirit it was given. Her world is coming apart. She needs you to be a rock. She needs to see you consistently doing things that show that you respect yourself and not allow her to manipulate you with tears, anger, or other world experience. Don't be angry and for goodness sake don't cry, beg or plead with her. She is throwing out every idea of where to "look for herself". These are all selfish, childish actions. And her saying "you were just a sperm donor". She is showing contempt towards you. Its dehumanizing and must not be allowed. When she insults you or disrespects you, end the conversation. Oh and the next time she tells you that you were just a sperm donor. Get up in her grill and tell her "that her comment says more about her then it does about you. And that for you to be a "sperm donor" that would make her a "sperm receptacle" and apparently she is willing to be one for multiple men. And I would also tell her that if she thinks shes going to find herself by going heals up underneath multiple partners, all she is going to have is a lot of memories of ceiling designs.

Hi MelodyLane,

You are tough as nails and helping me step outside of the box I was in before posting here. I sincerely appreciate your wisdom. It is hard to see things clearly sometimes when I am so close to it. I understand I need to retake control of this situation from my spouse. To summarize your advice (and this includes the other great posters that have been commenting today):

1. Inform her mom, family of what is going on.
2. Inform her friends of what is going on.
3. Sit her down and explain what continuing on this path will mean and that I will fight her 100% and use all of my resources against her, i.e. it will be ugly, brutal, and we will never be friends again, and I will go for 80/20 custody. Even if I lose, it will be brutal and we all walk away damaged because I am going to fight with blood for our marriage and our kids.
4. Tell her what I want: a romantic, loving, nurturing marriage with radical honesty between both of us. She needs to step up first and earn my forgiveness and do the things listed in your first e-mail to give our marriage a chance, or I will not want to be in a marriage with her and will give her nothing and fight for the kids.
5. No alimony or support at all if she leaves. No apartment, nothing!

Is that the gist of your advise? Is there anything else to think about?

Should I contact Dr. Harley for counseling/coaching before implementing? I am currently using a DB coach once per week. The DB approach has had some results with some 180s and 'as ifs', sort of a partial plan A. But given how the power relationship has shifted with the death of the OM, it seems to be time to go "all in" as you suggest and change approach.

BH

And yes you are correct, we are not seperated as we are living under one roof still.

And you not what galls me more than anything, she actually said crying when the guy died: "I have done nothing wrong, I can't even go to the funeral." This was before she got drunk and I had to take the kids to bed and then hold her head in a bucket the next morning and all night. She still refuses to think she cheated on me and does not call it cheating since marriage is "only on paper" and I decided our marriage ended when i decided to meet the OM!

This was the OM's first wife that called, not his current wife. My wife is distant friends with the first wife, not the second. I do not know how to contact any of them unfortunately.

I have not seen the obituary, as it was out of town.

Our savings and checking are only in my name and I took her cards away. She still has credit cards but you are making me to grab those too when i get back from my trip.

Blackhawk, as you have discovered first hand., the DB approach is very ineffective because all you are doing is enabling her destructive agenda by helping her hide the affair. She doesn't need an enabler, she needs someone to lead her out of the fog with a PLAN. And that is how MB differs from DB: there is an actual plan to save your marriage.

Dr Harley is a clinical psychologist who has saved thousands of marriages using these tactics and he would tell you that it is very hard to save a marriage when you are an enabler. I don't know of anyone who has saved a marriage by enabling a destructive, fogged out, wayward wife.

This affair could have likely been killed a very long time ago and you would be well on your way to recovery if you had not followed the destructive DB advice to help HIDE the affair. Affairs thrIve on secrecy so keeping it a secret all this time has been a major contributor to your wife's fog. It is very RARE to see a WW this foggy, this far out and I know why. She has been surrounded by enablers.

Please don't be a part of the problem anymore, Sir. Be part of the solution and be a leader in your marriage instead of an enabler.

You don't need a counselor to enact the plan I outlined above. All you need is a willingness to start standing up for your marriage. Once you get her commitment to work on the marriage, THEN you might need coaching to guide your recovery.

This is more evidence of her fog. I would be sure and refer to this as ADULTERY at every opportunity.

Does the OMs wife know that your wife was having an affair with her husband? My concern is that your wife has contacted her and this poor woman is not aware that your wife the fox in the henhouse. Is your wife contacting this poor woman?

Frankly, unsure, but highly doubtful. She was getting info from the first ex-wife, not the current wife, plus her best friend who is also I guess enabling this. I do not have anyone's contact info, so difficult to do anything about contacing the friends.

Yes, take anything you can. Of course, if these cards are in her name only she can call her card issuer and get new ones. Don't let that stop you! Hamper her financially as much as you can. Don't be a meany, though. If she needs something dainty from the store, certainly pay for it. When you go with her to get it.If she asks for money to pay the gas bill, pay it yourself. If she wants to buy groceries, go with her and pay for them yourself. Oh, and you can feed her, too.

Go listen to the second radio clip on this thread http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2518985#Post2518985

Dr Harley explains to a man why it is hard to save a marriage when you are an enabler. I have seen so very many marriages saved over the years from exposure and it is astonishing to me that divorce busters will BAN people from their forum for even recommending it! Dr Harley calls exposure the single most effective way to save a marriage from an affair.

She also has all of these other divorced and remarried friends that I think are her "shining stars" that she began contacting in spring/summer when I guess the EA started and she was searching for rationalizations to act on the EA. They may be ebabling her also.

And what was your response to all this? Did you address her fogginess? Did you point out that if there was nothing wrong with her affair then she should feel free to go?

The point I am trying to make is that part of the reason she is so fogged out is because no one is talking reality to her. That only fuels and cements her fog.

By the way, Blackhawk - don't tell her about this website. We have tools here for killing affairs. You don't want her to know about them or tip your hand in any way to her.

There may be a time when you'll be telling her about Marriage Builders, but that time is not now.

So much for God wanting her to be with OM.

She's apparently misreading the "signs".

Clearly God's gone to great lengths to see that she stays with you....WHERE SHE BELONGS.

If she needs "space" clear her a corner in the garage or basement.

Mr. W

p.s. - I'm glad she "trusts you financially" right now but YOU shouldn't trust her. One visit to an attorney and she'll be cleaning out any and all accounts. It's the very FIRST thing attorney's will advise her because THEY want to be paid and they also know the party with the most money WINS. Be proactive to protect yourself and your children. At the very least, open an individual account and transfer a substantial portion of any and all FAMILY savings into it (for protection only). You have 2 kids so you can safely withdraw 75% (25% per person) - JUST TO BE SAFE. If you have retirement accounts you MAY choose to "borrow" money from them and hold them in CASH. If you have joint money back in the states...switch it too. Change your direct deposit too...so you control the account that receives it otherwise she'll just happen to clean you out within the hour your paycheck is electronically deposited that particular week leaving you nearly penniless. Sure...it doesn't happen EVERY time...but it happens enough. You've been warned.

p.p.s. - You'd probably like the thread "The Art of War". You've done a good job of SEEMINGLY being her friend...just don't get caught up in the role. However, she is really NOT your friend and if you ever do divorce continuing a friendship with her is a terrible example to set for you children (that one MUST maintain relationships/friendship with people that abuse us) You ARE her husband and the father of those kids...she needs a HUSBAND to stand up and fight for her.

Dr Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders, speaks to man whose counselor tells him to: "sit on the sidelines while his wife has an affair." Dr Harley tells him might have waited too long and has lost his marriage because of this approach.

Dr Harley addresses the differences between a proactive approach and a passive approach:
part one

Part Two

In short, a complacent approach gives the impression you don't care very much.

In this clip, Dr Harley tells a betrayed husband to expose his wife's affair and do not offer forgiveness. [this man saved his marriage] click here

MrWondering,

Thanks for the advice. I have read many of your other posts and you are always spot on. I do also feel she is misreading the signs and God wants us to be together. it is hard for me to explain what has happened otherwise and this gives me hope.

I am having trouble finding The Art of War thread. can you point me in the right direction?

BH

MelodyLane,

I am unable to play the radio links you provided (page loads but never plays). Is this something others have had trouble with?

BH

Understood maritalbliss.

BH

Sorry, blackhawk! Go to this page, http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/

click on search archives, and then select the date May 28, 2010. Play the 3rd clip, BTintrouble. It should work for you. And I will try and find the others too.

I bumped it for you.

Thanks, saw it, great stuff! I remember reading Sun Tzu alot when younger, but never thought it would apply to my marriage. It is sometimes funny how life prepares you for something and you do not realize the importance at the time.

Got it all Melodylane, thanks again.

So OM died from an appedectomy?<sp> Had two wifes and was having an affair..I smell medical issues that also led to his death. Maybe drugs or alcohol, but not being disrespectful for the dead, we don't want to talk about that now anyways.

The metaphisical crap is what I wonder about. How can you compete with a ghost? You can't, and your not supposed to. Neak did well telling you about the living God, and it is the breathe of life that matters, as we strive to live in the truth and life.

Yeah sounds like the crazy rantings of the other friends, add to her confusion. But just like any other fantasy affair that is based on running away from what we have to face in our relationships, the people on this site have given you the real deal and the way to bring this marriage back into the real world.

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

If she can be shown back into the reality of life, and be brought out of the dream world she is embracing, she has a chance of recovering.

Follow the advice from these sage people and DR H, and wake her up.

God Bless

All,

Again, thanks for all the advice. I am currently on a business trip outside of the country and want to get those last credit cards away from her when I return this next week-end before affair exposure to mom (I want to be there for kids in case she loses it), and then talk with her on what she needs to do to stay in the marriage and how she can earn forgiveness. Our contact now on my trip is when I Skype her to read to our kids. She responds with minimal words and is sometimes rude. I do not take the bait though and let this go without being angry and focus on the kids. We had some pretty open communication the night before I left, where i told her our problems are solvable and she said no, that she does not love me anymore, it is too late, etc., but she got up later to see bye to me. While I am away, should I be trying to speak with her?

A couple of questions:

1. Before I left I wrote her a brief letter telling her how I do not deserve to only have my mistakes remembered (she has built up all of this resentment/emotional wall, I think during her psycholgist sessions pre-EA, on all the things I have done wrong in the marriage, things like in her eyes neglect, not being emotionally supportive, etc.), said what about what I do well, and closed it with words that I would be thinking things through on this trip with the implication that I will not stay in a marriage as described (and I was planning on telling her this directly when I returned regardless). My goal on that was to try and retake control by planting seed and then telling her that I will leave if she does not change. When I landed I did not text her as I normally do, so she Skyped me later asking why I did not text? I just said I was busy unpacking. Thoughts?
2. Plan implemetation: (1) call her mom, ask for support in saving the marriage; (2) sit her down and explain what I need to continue in marriage and explain the reality in black and white terms of what it will mean if we begin divorce. What reaction can I expect/plan for do you think? Breakdown? Grab kids and run?

Am I over analyzing this? I am worried about timing, when to do what, how much time to elapse between exposure and "the talk", or begin same day in parallel.

Blackhawk

My suggestion would be to expose to your MIL in the morning and ask her to contact your wife and try and talk some sense into her. Then when you get home that night, your wife will be screaming and ranting and raving. [is there anyone else you can enlist? Any close family or friends? pastor? if so, have them call her that day too.] That is when you set her down and have a TALK with her. Tell her how it is going to be. That you will not cooperate with any divorce schemes but you will not stay in a loveless marriage. Then lay it on thick about how she can't support herself and the kids and that you will not agree to let her take the kids. Paint a very ugly picture. And be sure and tell her that the kids will be told she broke up their family over her selfishness.

Just expect her to be furious and to make all sorts of threats. I suspect your wife is somewhat of a drama queen, so just expect some drama. When she sees it is not scaring you, she will back off] It is no more meaningful that the rantings of a drunk who just got his booze taken away. You might want to also carry a pocket recorder in case she goes bonkers and calls the police. That is rare, but it is best to be prepared.

And no, you ARE NOT overanalyzing this, blackhawk!! You are clearly thinking out your strategy and that is good! These are good questions.

Also, that night when you tell her all this, you can expect her to tell you to go to hell. She won't believe you are serious at first. She will first try and beat you down and scare you. It might take a couple of days of seeing you CALM and in control and RESOLVED in your plan to believe you.

Plan on reiterating your plan several plans. BE A BROKEN RECORD. Just tell her, this is the least I will accept, otherwise this is headed for divorce.

She will try and negotiate with you and you just tell her, sorry, this is not negotiable.

I am trying to plan against her possible reactions:

1. She rants, bragains, then she goes into waiting mode thinking. In this case I would continue with my 180s: be best father and husband I can be, 'as if' attitude.
2. She grabs kids and runs for another city. No support from me. My assumption is this would be temporary as how can she support herself medium term beyond a month or so? But I am doubtful she would do this, as she did not do it when this OM was in the hospital. Her mom will help against this also.
3. Push seperate apartments in the city where we live now. Again, no support from me.

I really start to think, hopefully not too optimistically, that we are in a holding pattern with the OM's death on 30 Sept and if I push a bit her fantasy house of cards may collapse. Anyway, this is what I am hoping for. I cannot discount the possibility of some drama though, because she is so emotional right now, in the affair fog still, and has reacted with drama in the past at me.

Another question: when I present what I want, should I try something like give it 12 months as a bargaining chip to get her to committ, or for her to at least feel comfortable committing? For example, "let's committ to making the marriage work and going through counseling 12 months, and if no success, then I will be more amicable"? Or would this be counter-productive? I am just thinking that if we get into counseling and work on this and 12 month that it will work regardless and 12 months is way in the future.

I want to make a compelling vision for her so she will make the rational choice and committ to working it out and going through the effort/pain.

Thank ConstantProcess for your post. When they did the autopsy on the OM, she said they found his organs were those of an old man. She interpeted this as "he is on a different timeline than us and had an old soul" and some other metaphsyical garbage. I was thinking alcoholic and health issues, but I did not argue with her as she was not rational.

I think the other friends and also her psychologist are telling her to follow her happiness and this is what has let this all develop. This guy began to meet her emotional needs, the secret of the blooming EA was enticing, and then she found all of her old divorced friends from 15 years ago on-line and sees how they have rebuilt their lives and/or remarried and rationalized that she wanted to do this also and that divorce is a good option. She also thinks she will get kids full time, and I think assumed I would not even try. I am almost 100% certain she has not even spoken to a lawyer, but just done alot of internet surfing and spoken to her friends.

First off, you should be recording her rants for evidence of imbalance. Get a VAR and keep it on while having conversations with her. Next, whats with 12 months? Its not the fact of whether she can stand to live with you. Is that your goal? What you need to do is remove any financial support. Simply tell her that you will not be investing family money in her effort to destroy this family. Grabbing the CCs are good. If she needs something, tell her to make a list. You can order anything on line.

Well, the rants were all pre-OM death, when I was resisting all of this and telling her we had to take the children's interest frist place. Now with the death and removal of the OM, she is more depressed/down than anything and I guess suffering withdrawal from her addiction. Her man in the wings is gone, but it seems she now is on auto-pilot, has some of her divorced friends as support, and I guess has made this wall inside her that blames me for all that is wrong in our marriage. She even told me before I left on my business trip out of the country that she would abide by my decision on financial support and it was "up to my heart." That same night she came upstairs and broke down crying and saying "let me go, have mercy, please let me go." She later calmed down and we had a good open talk where she said she can no longer love me.

Her psychologist, who she does not speak to any longer except irregularly, has also played her part in getting to where we are now.

On 12 months, I was thinking this could give her an excuse to try to make the marriage work.

And of course though the rants will start up after I tell my MIL. That will be huge as it is the first real affair exposure except for a few of her enabling friends.

By the fact she now tries to deny the cheating, I know she is scared by my threat to try and legally take the kids and sue for custody in the US. She thinks she has a better shot in our current country, and she does, but I have all of the resources of course. This is my trump card.

Personally I don't think it's a good idea to kind of promise her a free ticket out in twelve months. Of course chances are, if she really works with you during that time she will not want to get away.

But that is exactly the problem. At this point, she does not want to invest in your marriage. She wants to keep the fantasy of her spiritual connection with this other man alive. And if she knows, she only has to wait 12 months, chances are, she won't have her heart in it, but will sabotage things in her mind and use the 12 months to prepare for her life of freedom after that.

I don't know if you have read about buyers, renters and freeloaders on this website? But there is a huge difference in the amount of energy you invest in a relationship if you look at it as just an option among others opposed to as the only option.

You know, in World War II in the battle of Stalingrad the Russians refused to let the civilians of the city flee to safer areas, as the were convinced, that the soldiers would be motivated knowing how many lives depended directly on them - there was no turning back. They won. (I am not hailing this from a humanitarian view).
Don't you think you would work harder to save the sinking ship, if you knew you had no lifeboats or other source of resque and it was your only chance?

It should be clear to her, that God didn't condone her adultery and showed her in the directest possible way that OM was of limits and she was not meant to be with him. Apart from a voice directly out of heaven, what more signs could she want. It is obvious that the highest spiritual being wants her to take her responsibility and invest her time and energy to grow into a responsible wife and mother to lead the children to adulthood in an intact family.

That is what you should make clear to her. That her place is with you, and that with God's help you can make a strong marriage. She didn't love you when she first met you, but she loved you when you got together, got engaged, married and professed your love for all of the family and friends.
If she fell in love with you then, she can also fall in love with you now, if the two of you do the right things.

After all, you are not an axe-killer. (And even Ted Bundy had hoards of women fall in love with him, so...) Please realize that she is deep in the fog and that her words cannot be taken serously. Look at it from the bright side, you spare yourself the NC letter...

You can do it. Educate yourself here and lead her out of the fog.

Good luck,

Happyheart

Thank you happyheart for your words. I know the battle of Stalingrad well, and have had the opportunity to see the only remaining buildings there that are a monument to the losses. That rings a bell with me. I get your point. I just find myself analyzing this from every angle. It is like some chess game from hell.

Can you explain what a NC letter is? I am not familiar with that term.

When I explain to her what I want and the only way I will stay in the marriage, i.e. a loving, romantic, safe marriage, should I mention the death and connect this to God's will? I am unsure if it will be the right time.

Let me tell you a story about us, that makes me cry when I write it but also gives me hope and meaning. It is important I think and may have a connection. My wife has always had an interest in understanding religion and her sprituality. Before we were married when we were dating, she traveled to Israel with her job and placed a note in the Wailing Wall there as a wish to God. She told that she had made a wish there, but she never would tell me what her wish was for all these years until last week after the death of the OM when we had a talk. She wrote a wish to God that we would marry. This was over 12 years ago. We did marry eventually of course and have two beautiful children now.

I don't think the 180 will help you one bit. I have never seen it work because it conveys complacence, which will not help you.


I would not let her take your kids out of the home without a court order.


Yes, there will be drama. It has worked for her in the past so she will play the drama card here too.


Of course not. That is a sure fire way to ruin all your efforts. It is all or nothing. There will be no success if she doesn't try, but there will be success if she does. It won't work, though, with your approach of "lets see if this works" because that approach is contingent upon some magic happening to your marriage. IT won't get fixed with magic. And if she doesn't commit to the marriage and get this fixed, YOU SHOULD NOT BE AMICABLE.

Giving her this timeline will only give her a one year reprieve to hook up with a new guy. [which I suspect she is already working on]


And here you are trying to reason with a falling down drunk. It doesn't work. What you have to do is compel her to commit to the ACTIONS. Once she does that, her feelings will follow.

The thing to avoid, BH, is to give the appearance that these conditions are negotiable. They are not. You don't negotiate with a terrorist. Your wife is in the fog, so that is not someone to whom you afford any decision making powers over your marriage. Remember, your goal is to lead your marriage and your family out of the fire. You do that by taking the wheel from the drunk driver. You don't SHARE the wheel with the drunk, you take it away.

Is she familiar with the Bible?

Bible Verses Against Adultery

(Exodus 20:14) 14 �You shall not commit adultery.

(Matthew 5:27-28) 27 �You have heard that it was said, �You shall not commit adultery;�
28 but I tell you that everyone who gazes at a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.

(Matthew 5:32) 32 but I tell you that whoever puts away his wife, except for the cause of sexual immorality, makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries her when she is put away commits adultery.

(Matthew 19:9) 9 I tell you that whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and he who marries her when she is divorced commits adultery.�"

(Matthew 19:18) 18 He said to him, �Which ones?� Jesus said, "��You shall not murder.� �You shall not commit adultery.� �You shall not steal.� �You shall not offer false testimony.�

(Mark 10:11-12) 11 He said to them, "�Whoever divorces his wife, and marries another, commits adultery against her.
12 If a woman herself divorces her husband, and marries another, she commits adultery.�"

(Luke 16:18) 18 Everyone who divorces his wife, and marries another, commits adultery. He who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.

(1 Corinthians 6:9) 9 Or don�t you know that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don�t be deceived. Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexuals,

(1 Corinthians 6:13) 13 �Foods for the belly, and the belly for foods,� but God will bring to nothing both it and them. But the body is not for sexual immorality, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.

(1 Corinthians 6:15) 15 Don�t you know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be!

(1 Corinthians 6:18-20) 18 Flee sexual immorality! �Every sin that a man does is outside the body,� but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body.
19 Or don�t you know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which you have from God? You are not your own,
20 for you were bought with a price. Therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God�s.

(Galatians 5:21) 21 envyings, murders, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these; of which I forewarn you, even as I also forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

(Ephesians 5:3-5) 3 But sexual immorality, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not even be mentioned among you, as becomes saints;
4 nor filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not appropriate; but rather giving of thanks.
5 Know this for sure, that no sexually immoral person, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the Kingdom of Christ and God.

(Hebrews 13:4) 4 Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the bed be undefiled: but God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterers.

As before, MelodyLane I want to thank you for your sound advice. I think the 180 here is me becoming a firm rock after the last month of complacent behavior, playing hardball and not enabling her any longer with this nonsense!

I almost wonder if beneath the fog this is what she is waiting for me to do, to show her I will fight for her and stand up.

And I know the MIL call will blow her down. She is not expecting this at all.

So what should I expect after she calms down, assuming she does not run? A cold war at home?

I can't tell you how many WW's have said later that they appreciated their husbands standing up and fighting for their marriage. This is why it is such a huge mistake to be complacent. Complacence reflects a lack of caring.


Are there other family members or friends you can call on to help? The more people who know, the more support for your marriage. And hopefully your MIL will call her up. If she won't then you must tell your wife later that day that you have informed others. Anyone who is fairly close to your family should know what is going on. And when you talk to them, ask for their help. Ask them to call her up and use their influence to persuade her to drop her destructive plans.


She will try giving you the cold shoulder to try and get you to back down from your position. You have to stand pat and don't back down. If you back down or apologize or appease, she will know she is still in control. It is very, very important that you stay firm and don't go wobbly. You must show her that you are in control now.

I seriously doubt she will run. She might leave for a few hours in the hopes you will call and beg and plead and cry. But she will back down when you don't call her. And don't you dare call her if she does that!!

One reason to, as ML encourages, expand your exposure zone is often you only get one real good shot at exposure. You'll have one shot to respond to her anger with a "oops...my bad, I didn't think you'd mind everyone knowing, I'm just fighting for you and my family the best way I know how. Settle down...I won't do it anymore (because you won't have to...you've done it all already).

Another benefit of more broad exposure is that often, the waywards anger after exposure is both punishment and manipulation. They want to convince/manipulate you to STOP exposing their disgusting embarrassing behavior and figure if they get angry enough it won't be worth FURTHER exposure. Well...if you've already exposed to just about everyone...what good does an attempt to manipulate you do????

In the end, a truly repentant former wayward will understand and APPRECIATE all that you did to save her and the family. It may suck having everyone know but she'll come to understand that that was HER fault and a result/consequences of HER actions. You had no other choice and with the secret out...she'll gain accountability partners in real life and in prayer.

Mr. W

Thought I'd add another post that you may have read before (it's from the Notable Thread - For Newly Betrayed Husbands by Longhorn). This one is by the infamous Mortarman. I've never met the man but he is now one of the good friends my wife and I have made herein. After 5 years or so of fighting for his family and surviving not one but two separate divorce cases (in which he won more than 50% temporary custody both times)...his fww finally woke up and repented for good. He hasn't been around here much since.

Anyway, it's a great newbie post, especially for military men, that I pulled out for the old Infidelity - General Questions Board.

This post was directed to a BH named Good Father, who like Mortarman, was also military, hence the military angle. I'm guessing "blackhawk" signifies you are military or of a military mindset so figured you may like it:

"Old soul" = pickled

NC Letter is a No Contact letter sent to the OM, written by the WW and mailed by you, except now the OM was obliging enough to ensure that you didn't need to do this.

Thank again to all for the pasts posts. I have been silent on my business trip and then have been home dealing with my situation for the last week. MrWondering, I liked the Mortarman post, and found also very useful your "Do's & Don'ts of Plan A & B" post in the notable post section. For an update, here is where we stand: I got back, implemented, and she agreed the next day to try joint counseling for some period of time so we can "say we tried everything." She also agreed to speak with my counselor seperately. She did tell me she was surprised I have fought all of this, and she expected me to accept her leaving with the kids and to even be ok about it! She says she still feels hopeless we can recreate love in our relationship becaus eit has been broken so long. We did speak each of us to my counselor seperately last week and after her call she said she is willing to give it until the end of the year to see if "something moves within her." I have a call tomorrow with my counselor to discuss her call and next steps. I realize until the end of the year is unrealistic because it will take longer than that. Also, we need to start taking concrete steps. I will discuss with my counselor tomorrow to get a concrete plan.

Any thoughts or suggestions from others at this juncture? I feel I have won 2 small battles: she agreed to try joint counseling (and speak to my pro-marriage counselor), she agreed to give it until the end of the year. We both agreed we do not want the old relationship again, and a new one is possible.

Minus: she still believes she wants a seperation and does not agree with everything my counselor said, does not believe we can fall in love again. She continues to be negative about the marriage and blames me for everything.

This morning was a bad one. She has the time of the month and told me yesterday "Don't listen to me right now, I don't feel well" after saying "why do keep torturing each other, let's seperate." It was interesting she said that, because I already do not believe alot of her toxic comments and ignore them.

This morning she got angry because I left underwear on our 3 year old over night, I let it go, then she got angry at the 3 year old, then said "when I was at my Mom's in summer (remember, this was where she made her decision to have the EA become a PA), there was not all this tension and crying of kids, it will be like this until the end of the year. We can't stay like this!" I made the mistake of saying she was upset because of her period, she argued no, then I left with kids for school.

I hope tonight is quieter...

Wow, I'm just in process of reading Blackhawk's story, but I can't let this go.

Melody, I can't tell you how validating it was to read this post from you.

I did precisely this and still to this day have felt like I am being a hard-line A-hole for taking the position I have taken with respect to the protection and well-being of my children.

Briefly, what I ultimately communicated to my WW over a period of months was: 1) This is our home where we live with our children. If you decide to leave our home to pursue your own selfish goal to "be happy," our children are not going anywhere. They are going to stay right here, in this house, with me. 2) All these BS fantasies you keep regurgitating about how our children "will be just fine" and how "what will really hurt the children is you being an A-hole and fighting over them" are delusions of grandeur.

I have seriously thought, until now, that my hard-line position on her leaving without the kids (and the utter extremes to which I would go to protect my kids from exposure to her downhill spiral) were just that -- extreme. Every single "counselor" and adviser I've dealt with has been really critical of my position on custody of the kids. Even my attorney, whom I still trust, urges me to compromise for the sake of the children should it come to that. No way. I love my wife deeply, but if she ultimately makes the selfish decision to throw my children under a bus -- causing them life-long, permanent emotional pain and suffering as a result, I will fight til the end of the world to protect my children from her.

I am anxious to learn more about:

1) How and why it is effective to be very clear about what the negative consequences of a WS's decision to leave the marriage will be.

2) How many times, and for how long do you continue to communicate your boundaries and consequences during the recovery process?

What I'm struggling with now is that for me, my position no longer applies only to what would happen if she makes a deliberate choice to leave the marriage and file for divorce; It feels more and more to me that my position should apply in the same way if she makes a conscious choice to NOT commit to giving her all to repairing, rebuilding and renewing our marriage.

Mel, your comment about how she just expected Blackhawk to roll over and HELP her throw her husband and children under a bus rings true for me as well. My WW had all kinds of delusional fantasies about how I was going to be totally on board with 50/50 custody, and how we wouldn't even need separate attorneys because there would be nothing to fight about blah, blah.

After I made my position clear, she was REALLY F'ing mad that I would "disparage her as a mother" to get my way (she heard this from an attorney) because she would "never" say anything bad about me as a father... Yeah right.

Shes Mad? Awww the poor thing!

By now you realize that shes chasing rainbows and fantasy's, probably encouraged from who knows what.

Take your pick, there are always salesman wishing to show you the grass in greener over here/there, life wasn't fair, and boo-hoo let me help you achieve nirvana. It is not always men either, but women in the coffee clutch can also do it.

And who understands women as much as another women? Yeah that's the idea anyways. When the truth is probably that its just aggression misguided. They should take up weightlifting or some other form of exercise.

I don't know your story, but the stand you took was the best thing for you and your children all-around physical and emotional health, and is the best chance for you being able to help your W too. if she will allow the truth to reign.

Hang in there and Mel is one of those Woman who can help you, along with many of the posters on this Forum. Remember that you are not alone, and this kind of mental sickness has been around since Eve was tempted, and Adam bought the lie.

I know its like getting neutered, and that's just what they want us to be, men without principles unless they give us one.

Grats that you didn't by that bill of goods

Here is the link to the second part Driven2.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...flat&Number=2563596&#Post2563596

I changed threads because I was afraid at one point she was reading the thread. After counseling with Steve though I think she was just following the usual WW script and I was reading too much into her reactions.

WW, kids and I leave for a week at her mom's tomorrow, so I may be off-line for awhile.

Blackhawk

Constant, I just wanted to say thank you for the words if encouragement and support. They mean a lot to me.