Hey everybody.

I discovered Dr. Harley's site today and have been blown away by it.

About two years ago I was caught by my wife in an "attempted affair" of the facebook variety. This was year 11 of our marriage. She told me, as she always has, that I was lucky I hadn't atually slept with someone because she could never stay with me. So, I kept hidden the two "real" infidelities in our marriage. (I had a prostitute incident in year 4 and a 4 month affair in year 11 that I broke off when caught for the online thing.)

She stayed with me and agreed to work on it, but the lies and dishonesty of holding back on the worst of it ate me alive. And there wasn't much "working on it" going on except me trying to figure out "what was wrong with me".

Anyway, we started counseling with a really good couples therapist about a month ago and rather than helping things it brought the lingering distrust and problems to the forefront.

9 days ago, I finally told her the truth about the infidelity. Over the course of the last week she has asked for clarifications and details, given me a polygraph to try and determine if the whole truth is out, and been forced to endure STD testing.

Right now she is VERY angry obviously. She wants me to leave the house, but I don't want to for many reasons. Mainly we have four kids age 7, 5, 3, and 6 months. and can't afford it either.

I love her desperately, and I want to fix our marriage and never lie or cheat again, but right now all she does is talk about how I make her sick and she's happier when I'm not around and she can't wait to have a "good, real sex life with somebody else".

I'm trying to stay around, answer her questions, be there for her to vent... I can take it. I love her with all my soul. But I don't want to drive her away by being here either.

Any thoughts?

I would be a gentleman and move out. She may decide not to continue the marriage and that is her right and prerogative. Leave her alone and let her decide if she wants to stay married.

I have told her that I'm willing to stay away from her as much as she wants me to, but then she talks about wondering if I'm really at the gym for the one hour I went to the gym. If she cares where I am how does moving out help ensure trust?

Its her decision. Tell her you want the best for her and will abide by whatever she decides. and MEAN it.

Repentance means doing whatever the BS needs to feel safe again -and if that measn not being with you, you have to be selfless about that and accept it as a consequence.

On the upside, aside from that, I dont see all that much fog in your post for a someone who only found the site today.

Since youve come clean, done a poly etc I even hesitate to call you a wayward.

and that is a very good thing, regardless.

No you don't. You don't boink bimbos when you "love her with all your soul".

You need to ask her what she wants and then do it. And if you are trying to establish trust, then why is your time unaccounted for? She knows you have poor boundaries around women, so disappearing is surely not helping your cause.

The affair was two and a half years ago. I can't say that I loved her with all my soul at the time, obviously I had an affair.

Figuring out why I did it is in process now - what it looks like after 9 days of introspection by me is a mixture of male covert depression sending me out looking for a way to feel good about myself, along with my EN's of affection, sexual fulfillment, and admiration being unfulfilled because of our marriage dynamic. (Mostly my fault)

There are some tips on here about accounting for your time and being more transparent.

You can offer transparency, but it is up to her if she takes it.

People who have done recovery will have better tips, but something like maybe give her your phone, tell her she can download a GPS on it, then she can always see where your phone is, and call you if need be to check the phone is with you.

I don't want my time unaccounted for - that's why I don't want to leave.

I am going to the gym 3 nights a week for an hour each time to do couch-to-5K so I can look better for her. (EDIT: It's obviously for me too and to be healthy for my kids but she is the motivator for me)

Last night she called the gym to see if I had checked in there but they have a policy not to give out that info. I offered to go there with her to verify it and she decided she wasn't supposed to care anymore. I WANT her to care.

I would make your life an open book, but again, its up to her if its a book she wants

quit the gym.

Thanks, this is helpful. I should just keep the phone with me. That was dumb to leave it in the locker. BTW The affair was with someone on the other side of the country so there's no worry of me contacting the other woman, it's just a general trust issue.

Can you point me to the tips on accounting for time and being transparent?

I work in an office and the temptation I have comes over the computer. I quit facebook which is where all my problems have started, but I still have to work.

I would start ensuring your boundaries with women are much tighter. You need a list of EPs - such as no opposite sex friendships, no personal discussions with members of the opposite sex ..... someone should be able to help you out with an EP list. I will have a hunt for one you can give your wife.

There was a wayward on here - mirrormirrors wife who has offered to take a poly periodically if that's what her h needs to feel safe. She has also surprised him with a post-nup where she gets nothing if the marriage doesnt work out for any reason. She spends each and every day proving herself with actions.

Does your wife know for SURE you quit FB, did you cancel it with her there?

You need to find a way that she can monitor your computer use. If work computer use is the issue, maybe invite her to have a word with your boss where she informs him/her that you have been fooling around on FB on company time. That should get any key sites blocked on you computer and show her you are serious.

As a BS myself, I cna tell you that it is quite the marvel when WSs take responsibility and face the music.

Again, that is up to her. If she wants you to leave, you should leave. Don't aggravate the situation by disrespecting her wishes. That just makes it worse. But while you are there, it is stupid to have any unaccounted for time if you are serious about changing.


I would quit the gym. You and I both know they are pick up joints so if you are trying to change, I would start there.


Quit the gym. Good grief. Why aggravate her? If you KNOW it aggravates her, then quit.

If you want to persuade her to stay married to you, then the first step is to have a PLAN to clean up your life and make yourself a safe person. You have very poor boundaries around women and that has to change in order for her to be SAFE with you.

I would start by quitting the gym since you know it upsets her. The next thing would be to give her all your email passwords and give her open access to your accounts. Delete facebook entirely. Exchange your cell phone with her. Give her access to your cell phone bill. Become a SAFE PERSON.

And most of all, end all of your opposite sex friendships. That is how affairs start.

I dont think I understand. Which one was across the country that you will never see again?

Sounds like you had a PA years ago then had a PA that was broken off when you had the "attempted" EA from across the county?

Explain please?

Do you have time for gym time though? Recovery takes 30 odd hours a week undivided attention time. I know your wife isnt on board with recovery but she probably will need you around a lot to see that youre serious

Can you access that computer at home? If so, you can give her access to that email account at home and give her the password.

He needs to QUIT the gym. It is obvious she is not enthusiastic about it. She can't trust him out of her sight, and going to the gym is certainly not worth it.

Work out at home.

Are you going to quit the gym?

That is really scary and your wife should be scared to read this. What is to stop you from cheating again next month if you find you don't "love her with all your soul" next month? Feelings of love ebb and flow, so what is her protection?

You are a serial cheater, pal, and are no prize for her. If you expect to keep anything around other than a skank, you had better give a better guarantee than that.

Have you thought about that?

I certainly hope you didn't try to reassure your BW with this.

Planes, trains, automobiles. They'll all get you there. Or get her here.

Unfortunately, I work for the government and they can't block any sites specifically for me. There are also security issues where I can't install any keyloggers or video monitoring or anything like that. And quitting my job would mean giving up our ability to live where we live. Plus, what white collar job for an engineer / MBA wouldn't involve computers?

Yes, I quit my facebook in her presence. But she recognizes that all it takes to get another one is an email. there IS no solution to this with certainty, except taking a polygraph which is always how the discussion ends.

I'm not tempted at the gym. I'm fat and bald so it's not like i'm going to pick some girl up. And she WANTS me to go to the gym. she encourages me to. I have been sick and two nights ago it was her that got me off my [censored] to go.

i guess what I mean to say is I did it despite loving her with all my soul. I'm trying to figure it out as to why i did it. I hate to say it's as simple as my EN's not being met because that implies she's partly to blame and I don't want to blame her for my awful decisions.

What will stop me cheating next month is a combination of many things - 1. My newfound faith 2. My desire to be the man I need to be 3. My absolute clarity that I want to die holding my wife's hand...

I still dont think we have all the info. You broke off a PA when she found out about the "attempt" via facebook.

Then you say that the other person is across the country and you would never see her.

I'm getting that the across the county is the 'attempt" and there is someone around you broke it off with.

If I'm finding holes in your story,,,you better bet your wife is.

The fact that she is calling the gym to verify your whereabouts is enough reason to stop. And of course you can be tempted at the gym. Just the fact that you don't seem to recognize it makes you dangerous. That is like the drunk driver who swears he is great driver. You have inappropriate boundaries with women, and if there are women at the gym, you can be tempted.

Part of the problem is that you don't seem to understand what constitutes risk and what doesn't.

If I were in your shoes, I would develop a PLAN to affair proof your marriage and go to her on bended knee with that plan. But all I see here are excuses why you can't do something. We are trying to help you but there is nothing we can do if you don't listen and pay attention.

You are a serial cheater, my friend. In order to recover your marriage you are going to have to take EXTRAORDINARY PRECAUTIONS to change yourself.


But you could get a job without security clearance where your wife could access your email. Why not put that energy towards finding solutions to affair proof your marriage instead of excuses why you can't? Your job is not more important than your marriage. Your job needs to accommodate your marriage, not the other way around.

What a load of crap. You cheated for one reason and one reason only: you have inappropriate boundaries around women.

And you don't know what will stop you from cheating. You don't have the slightest idea as evidenced by this post. No amount of "faith" will stop you. We have PASTORS on this website who cheated. They have great faith and it did not stop them. Nor will your "desire to be the man I need to be" stop you. It didn't stop you before and won't stop you now.

And "your absolute clarity that you want to die holding your wife's hand......" sounds real cute and dramatic but will do nothing to stop you from cheating.

Here is what will stop you from cheating: EXTRAORDINARY PRECAUTIONS. That means changing your life in such a way that you CAN'T cheat anymore. Creating such a transparent lifestyle that it would be impossible. Giving your wife access to everything, email accounts, computers, cell phones, etc. Never spending the night apart again, becoming racically honest. Grand drama queen professments will not change your marriage.

+1

OK thanks a ton everybody... I'll make the EP's my focus for now.

Clarification on the affair / online thing: BOTH were women on the other side of the country.

The online thing was an inappropriate messaging back and forth with a divorced former friend of ours from the last place we lived. Erotic story, flirty talk, et cetera. My wife found it and colluded with the woman to catch me saying that I would meet her.

The actual affair was over the four months prior to that during a series of business trips. That was with my former HS girlfriend. I ended that affair at that time.

EDIT2: I have to add that there was another online-only thing a few months ago where I played with fire again. That could have led to another affair but this all came out before it had the chance to go anywhere. That was another former HS friend a couple states away.

Again, inappropriate boundaries with women. It doesn't matter if they were "on the other side of the country." An affair is an affair. Your wife AND YOU both know you would have hooked up with them if the opportunity presented itself.

You maintained a friendship with a former lover: INAPPROPRIATE. You traveled for business without your wife: INAPPROPRIATE.

Until you have a plan to develop APPROPRIATE boundaries with women, your wife is not safe with you.

hmmmmmmmmm could this be a clue??

Yes, i already canceled two business trips coming up - she was going to come with me on the second before this all came out now she doesn't want to go with me so I canceled that. I could never go on any more trips without her. I understand that.

Thats a good start. But what about the future?

Can you send her here to speak to us?

Sounds like you can't handle "online". Get rid of "online".

If you have unlimited cell phone minutes cell phone to cell phone...then you could callher from work and keep the line open all day.

Are you allowed to bring your personal laptop to work and set it up in your office? You could set up ichat accounts on yours and her computer...establish a link each morning and she can watch you all day in your office and on your computer at work if she likes and no one there would even know it if HER microphone and your speakers were muted and your screen dimmed. She can listen in and/or peek in if she wants at anytime she feels like it.

Just thinking outside the box...which is what YOU should be doing. Find creative ways to DEMONSTRATE your trustworthiness by ACTIONS...not words.

Mr. W

+1

Please read up on the Policy of Radical Honesty.

Start being 100% open and honest, not only with your BW but with posters who are trying to help you.

Not only is radical honesty integral to marriage building but it is essential for recovery and also for affair-proofing your marriage.

Please don't play word games like "attemtped affair" and "real" infidelities.

The fact that you trickle truthed us already makes me doubt we have the full story. Please list out all the indiscretions, time frames, regardless of whether you would label it an "affair" or not and whether or not your BW knows about it. Please do it in chronological order and give details about what happened (how it started, ended, how long) and please be honest.

S96,

One of the things that made me nuts was that my husband was dishonest for so long and dragged out telling me the truth over months and months.

You need to open up and answer any questions she has.


Also, you must be ready to understand that she may go back and forth with what she wants. One day she may be convinced she wants you out; the next day she will want you to stay. This is normal. She needs time to know what she wants, and to see IF you are able to make permanent changes.

Both of you need time to figure out what happened in your marriage that set the stage for these affairs to happen.

YOU need to understand why you felt entitled to do this, why you felt it was okay to betray your vows, and why you thought there were no boundaries for you.


Meanwhile, you need to begin this process by writing letters of NO CONTACT to these other women. Look for examples in the threads here; write the letters, have your wife approve them, and have your wife send them.

That will show your wife that your intent is to never contact any of the women you have had affairs with EVER AGAIN.

You cannot have these women in your life - ever - if you expect any recovery of your marriage. You can't look at their FB, you can't email them, you can't call them, you can't ask anyone else how they are doing. No contact. Ever. They are gone, out of your life, as though they have vaporized. And if any of them ever try to contact you.......your FIRST action after that is to show the contact to your wife, or tell her about it.

You do not reply. You tell your wife.



That is where you start.


Then, you expose these affairs to your family and friends. YOU tell on yourself, and let everyone know what you have done. Tell them that you want to save the marriage, to support YOUR WIFE, to help YOUR WIFE, and that you need to make changes in your own behavior - and that you need them to help you do it.


Ask for support in becoming a better man.


Then apologize to EVERY SINGLE PERSON YOU LIED TO. Because the entire time you were cheating on your wife, you were lying to everyone.

You owe everyone an apology.


Start with your wife. Then your family, her family, and your friends.


You will be broken when you are done. Only then can you begin to rise.


SB

The future will be either she comes with me or I don't go, period.

Would it be healthy/okay/proper to have BOTH of us on the forum? I have no credibility with her right now so she would just think this is a big fraud. Plus, anything she might read in the middle of my process to figure out why I did this to her may be unproductive. I definitely don't have anything to hide.


Already done.


Thanks for the suggestions, but there is no out-of-the-box for where I work. I can't have any kind of monitoring system or secret hidden video or keyloggers or even a cell phone in my building. I have racked my brain but the choices are 1. break the rules and risk my job 2. do polygraphs for a time or 3. quit my job and move somewhere else in the worst economy since the great depression.
I haven't been intentionally holding back, just trying to give you the short version. I'll work on the TL;DR version and lay it all out in the near future.

I have read the article on radical honesty and I am 100% fully on board with it. In fact, I had already decided before I found the site that that was going to be the law of my life going forward. It takes time to unwind years of lies and I'm doing it as best I can.

I didn't mean to play any word games. I don't mean to minimize the hurtfulness/wrongness of searching for another affair, I just meant to distinguish between the full blown sexual affair and the other one.

@SB: Too much to quote, but thanks for all your advice - I am already at work on some of it and will be at work very soon on the rest of it.

Au contraire. There is currently a 90% employment rate and people are getting jobs. I would not quit outright, but there is no reason you can't look for a job that is not high security where she can monitor your computer.


"attempted affair" = AFFAIR. Just because you didn't consummate it, doesn't mean you didn't have an emotional affair, which is just as bad.

It is this type of slicing and dicing that is not working for you. I would lose the bullcrap rationalizations if you want to be taken seriously.


She thinks you are a fraud, which you are. WE are not. And we can tell her why you did this to her. That is very productive. You let US be the judge of what is or isn't "productive." You don't have that capability.

Please bring her here and let us talk to her. Show her this thread.

OK I'll invite her here.

Here is the timeline with more detail.

June 1999 - Just before marriage - navy buddies took me to "Cheetahs" in San Diego for a psuedo-bachelor party where the dancer put me in a chair on stage and made fun of me / danced in my face / et cetera. Was open about that to my wife.

6/26/1999 - Married.

Feb 2000 - Aug 2000 was a 6 month deployment. I remember one night all going to a strip club in Crete. Didn't hide that. She visited me on a couple port stops and we had great memories together.

Professionally, I suffered huge failures during the 2000/2001 period due to my weight issues. It basically cost me a navy career and almost cost my wings. In the end they let me finish my tour and I left in quiet disgrace at the end of 2002. Those two years were marked by separation, and alot of unhappiness professionally. In this time I abused alcohol, was angry, and our marriage alternated between really good, fun times and really bad fights. When on deployments, I watched porn. I don't remember watching it when I was home.

Jan 2002 through Dec 2004 I worked as an ROTC instructor. I hated myself for being a failure and we had a lot of marital trouble. I grabbed my wife in a fight and she left to go to a hotel for a night. I resolved to never lay a hand on her again in anger at that time and I haven't.

We had our first daughter in December 2003.

It was during this time that I joined Adult Friendfinder and eventually ended up meeting two different women in person. Nothing progressed with either one of them. I don't remember whether it was because I had second thoughts or felt guilty or didn't have any chemistry or whatever, but I met each one only once and didn't get involved physically. Had no further contact.

Sometime in 2004, I patronized a prostitute that I found off the Eros website.

I went to strip clubs twice during this time period that I can remember - once when I was on a training thing with my ROTC unit (I hid this one) and then a second incident that is a huge one in our marriage - where I went with my buddy and left my wife and the baby with his wife, against her wishes, to go to a strip club. At the time I felt entitled to "blow off steam" or whatever, and trampled her feelings for my own selfish desires. I felt that she was trying to control me so I rebelled against that. It is a dark and shameful and damaging event in our marriage.

In the end of 2004 I separated from active duty and we moved to Maryland.

the period Jan 2004 - Oct 2005 contained good times and bad, we had a second child, our son, and fought over the stresses of life. I don't remember acting out sexually in any way except I'm sure I was watching porn occasionally.

I pursued a flirty relationship with a woman at work, mostly email. Hung out with her on two occasions just talking. Nothing ever progressed physically. I don't consider it even at a level of an Emotional Affair. Just not appropriate.

I also occasionally fantasized about hiring an escort again but never acted on it.

October 2006 I transferred to southern CA.

July 2008 we had our third child.

Sometime in 2008 there was a strange sexual thing where I sought something out that was a little more "experimental" in nature that I have fully detailed to my wife but would rather not go into here.

There was probably regular porn viewing also. I didn't ever feel compelled to watch porn when I was getting it from my wife. (Not to say I'm blaming her for me having to watch porn - though i may have thought that at the time.)

In early 2009 I joined facebook. Ugh.

(BTW our third child was the first time my wife breastfed. it was for a year, july 2008 - july 2009ish. What I know NOW is that breastfeeding totally kills sex drive and estrogen levels and makes it unpleasurable to have sex. At the time I didn't know that and just felt rejected all the time.)

In march or so of 2009 the poking started with my former high school girlfriend. Let's call her OW1. This is the woman that took my virginity at age 17 and is associated with a very happy, successful time in my life.

It quickly progressed to flirty exchanges, then an erotic story, then talk of meeting.

I met her in person on four short business trips to the east coast from April through August of 2009. I didn't feel like I loved her but she told me she loved me and I said it back to her because I didn't want to admit that I was using her to feel good. I still don't believe that I loved her but that question is one that gave me trouble on the polygraph. so I don't know. It's complicated and I'm trying to sort it out.

During the same summer i had had a few exchanges back and forth with an old friend/neighbor (OW2) from the last place we lived in MD. She had recently gotten divorced and was telling me about life and trying a sugar baby website and talking about her dysfunctions with sex. It triggered that need in me to feel like a man by showing her what I could do for her. I sent her an erotic story and hinted at meeting but it never went anywhere. My wife discovered an undeleted message with OW2 and colluded with her to get me to say that I wanted to meet her on a business trip. I failed the test and said exactly that.

So that's when we had what I'll call "fake" D-Day, Sept 11 2009.

After she found out about OW2 online stuff she told me "The only thing keeping me from filing for divorce right now is the fact that you never actually slept with anyone." I disclosed to my wife everything I had ever done EXCEPT the prostitute and OW1. I talked to my pastor and he and his wife agreed that I could fix myself without telling her the whole truth. I know now that that was a HUGE mistake and probably cost me the chance to fix things. But my wife is the most honest person that ever lived and hides nothing. I believed her when she said she'd leave if I had actually slept with someone.

I resolved to be the man I needed to be and to get help to figure out why I did this. My wife said there would be no room for mistakes. Not even for porn.

I ended the affair with OW1.

I dove into "Every Man's Battle" and asked close friends (men) to keep me accountable.

I saw a therapist but he didn't really help me figure out what was my problem. He worked on exterior issues like communication and attitude and stuff when I needed to dig into me.

We had a healing time and a period of reconciliation with great intimacy and great sex and got pregnant with our fourth.

Feb 12, 2010 we lost our fourth, a girl, at 18 weeks and went through the birth and cremation and recovery from that together. It brought us closer.

Summer 2010 we got pregnant again with our fifth. My wife was on bed rest for 6 or 8 weeks in feb/march 2011. At some point I slipped and watched porn. I did it a handful of times through that period . I didn't feel i could tell her.

In march 2009 I chatted with OW1 on facebook. It was nothing inappropriate that I can recall, but obviously HUGELY playing with fire. My wife saw a few snippets of it but suspected something because I had deleted most of it.

The next day we had our last baby girl and the chat issue got buried.

My wife had a relatively easy birth and recovery, but then almost bled out later from some clots and had to have a D&C and recovered from that.

After that it has been breastfeeding - again, what I know now I didn't know then but felt very rejected and unwanted. She had sex with me once every week or two, sometimes as long as 3 weeks in between. But it was obvious she was just doing it to placate me.

Then the middle of August 2011 the poking started with the other high school friend, OW3. There was an erotic story, talk about sex, and a desire to meet. Never got a chance to act on it but I thought about it.

In september 2011 my wife and I started going to see a new counselor after talking about finding one for the last two years. we finally did find a great one. She is awesome. I dialed back the thing with OW3 in the last few weeks before D-Day.

D-Day was Saturday October 15, 2011.

I have told my wife everything I did. I made her dig for some of the hurtful details, because i wasn't sure if it would be helpful or hurtful for her but over that first week everything came out.

I know now that it was a huge mistake to think I could continue to hide the prostitute and the affair with OW1. The lies made it impossible to really figure myself out. The shame and guilt of continually lying ate away at me.

I didn't mean to rationalize it, just distinguish it from the physical affair.

For the first time in years, I'm NOT a fraud. I don't ever want to BE a fraud again. That's why I'm here. If you can tell her why I did it to her then I'd be really interested to hear that. I'm spending 4 hours a week in individual therapy trying to figure out why. I have some pretty good indications regarding depression and EN's but whatever you see in me would be helpful to know.

You can save your money and your time because we can tell you why.


In short, you had affairs because you have poor boundaries around women. Please pay the receptionist on your way out.

Going to therapy to try and find out why you cheat is a good money maker for the therapist, but it is a distraction and a waste of your time.

No wonder you need the help of this forum.

The timeline you spell out is a transcript of complete misery.

I just want you to be aware that every action was felt acutely by your wife AT THE TIME. The secrecy did not protect her. She would have felt every stab of the knife in her back. She just did not know what was behind it.

If you think you were unhappy, (while completely aware of what was going on and in control being able to stop it) - just think what kind of rollercoaster ride your wife was holding on to.

I just want to make this point, because while recovery is not impossible, it will take HERCULEAN efforts to make her feel safe after all this.

I understand that, Indiegirl. Thanks.

@Melody: It's a little more complex than that - figuring out for myself why I have an anger problem, depression, lacking empathy - I need to be healthy if I'm going to be the husband and father I want to be. The anger issue alone has sent my wife close to leaving me.

Good. The basic issue I see here is that you are wasting your time going to therapy when you could be focusing on saving your marriage. Your therapy is a distraction from the real problem. While you do that, your marriage dies on the vine.


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Listen to Mel, Schlag - feelings follow actions. Yours and your BWs

You don't need to know WHY in order to change. You need to make a decision to change. If you have anger issues, you can attend anger management classes, but you are wasting your time going to counseling to find out why you cheated. That is a distraction from the real problem. Don't get me wrong, I agree it is fun and winsome to go to a counselor and flap your lips about nothing, but you don't have time for that. Your marriage is on life support and needs immediate attention.

You need to focus on your marriage and stop the needless distractions if you want to save your marriage.

Your serial cheating is much more likely to destroy your marriage. And if you don't stop messing around with these distractions you won't have a marriage to save.

This will not keep you safe because today this is only a reaction to the situation you are caught up in. This above statement is a sign of guilt and not indicative of an action.

The goal is to get you protecting your wife with actions. That is the only way to make her safe.

What actions can you give her to make her feel safe? In the beginning she will not feel safe with anything you do, so you will need to take extra precaution while at work.

My thought with work is if you hold a clearance you are not allowed on any social sites. Didn't you know they are the #1 spot for espionage?

Tell your IT to put special software on your computer. They have it and if you need to go to a site for your job they either have to unlock it for you, or you can use a colleague who can access it for you.

Actions Sir!!!

Thank you for all that and I see your point, but her comment in our joint counseling (suggested by the counselor) is that "she's been living with crazy for so long she doesn't know up from down or who I am or who she is". And that she needs to figure that out before we can even think about fixing our marriage or examining emotional needs.

Schlag

Would you agree that the following statement is true?

Statement:

Who we are is determined by our actions.

True or not true?

Pepper: True.

I used to think it was about what is "in your heart" but that was *edit*. That's why I was always so angry at the world not being fair or not understanding my true intent. I always felt misunderstood by people.

You talk about ow1 and ow's 2 and 3, but in that exchange I count at least 7ow and one 'experiment of non-disclosed nature'.

You really have some work to do on being honest.

Schlag, coming to this forum will help her know which way is up or down. Maybe ask her to come here for a week or two and then you can consider therapy after that.

You probably were misunderstood by people. Certainly by your wife. If you arent completely and radically honest with people. Theyre at sea without a map.

That is silly, of course you know who you are and who she is. If you don't, then pull out your drivers license and read the name. THAT is who you are.

This is why I want your wife to come here. You are wasting good time with a whole lot of psychobabble and feel good distractions rather than working on your marriage.

All she needs to know is HOW to turn this marriage around and if you are willing to make those changes. Going off to counseling to "find yourself" in an exercise in futility and a distraction from the real problem.

Your marriage will not recover wasting valuable time going to counselors to "find yourself." Please send her here. Hopefully she has some sense.

She is pretty angry right now so I'm not sure she'll want to hear things like "hopefully she has more sense"

I have sent her the link to this thread and told her you all thought she should be here but I don't know what she'll do. She doesn't trust me and doesn't see how she could ever stay with me right now. She gives indications that she cares about EPs but then says it doesn't matter anymore. She doesn't know what she wants to do. She wants me to leave but then she wants me to sit there and tell her everything I talked about in therapy so she can see if i'm getting "fixed".

I still don't know how many "affairs" or relationships outside of the marriage you have had and I can't figure it out (easily) by reading what you posted above.

It would be helpful if you could instead list them out clearly, in chronological order, and you can give a little information for each affair such as how you communicated with each other (FB, email, at work, etc) how long the affair was and when the last date of NC was and when your BW's dday was for each one as well.

EX
#1, 2009, 3 mos, fb affair with old hs girlfriend, NC 9/2009 and BW's dday was 9/2011

Then we could ask you about each one if we need more info. Please list every one. If you even have to wonder if it should be listed, then it probably should...

Let's see. Please send her here so we can speak to her.


That is because she doesn't understand this is a waste of good time that won't protect her from you. You are wasting your time [and hers] flapping your lips when you could be working on affair proofing your marriage.

Therapy will not fix you. Establishing appropriate boundaries WILL.

Let her decide.

If you need to find yourself, look inside your shoes. It's simpler and cheaper than therapy

If however you want to affair proof your marriage - take actions (also simple and cheap, but which so far have been unconsidered by you throughout your marriage) such as no contact with old girlfriends for example. or loose boundaries with any woman.

It sounds simplistic. But so is stomping on the brake to stop the car going over the cliff. Sometimes action is called for.

It would let you off the hook to find a syndrome or childhood trauma in therapy that neatly 'explains' your infidelity but being an MBer is not about being let off the hook.

Its about facing the simple and ugly truth that you liked the admiration of strange women and risked your marriage for no more than a cheap thrill.

And also facing the simple truth that you can decide to stop risking your happiness for cheap thrills at any point you decide to STOP.

This may sound like sense to her, it may not. Theres only one way to find out isnt there?

You talking about needing to be fixed is a way for you to avoid taking full blame and responsibility for your actions. It allows you to blame it on a mental problem or something outside of your control. It is also an excuse you could use in the future - oops, I thought I was "fixed" but it turns out I wasn't.

Stop that. You are responsible for your actions and you screwed up. You can't change the past, but you can make better choices now and in the future.

Focus on actions you can take right now to affair-proof your marriage.

#1, 2004, a few chats / 1 time meeting with Adult Friendfinder contact. Didn't go anywhere.
#2, 2004, a few chats / 1 time meeting with Adult Friendfinder contact. Didn't go anywhere.
#3, 2004, patronized an escort from eros website.
#4, 2006, a few months EA with work person, met twice to "hang out", did not get physical. Communicated via work email.
#5, 2009, 6 mo, fb and then in person affair with former HS girlfriend. Verbal NC 9/2009 and wife's DDay was 10/2011. no additional NC yet since DDay.
#6, 2009, 2-3 mo EA via fb with former neighbor. no NC, wife's DDay was 9/2009
#7, 2011, 2 mo EA via fb with former HS friend . no NC yet, wife's DDay was 10/2011

+1 "experiment-which-shall-not-be-named"

How many of these people are you still in contact with? It looks like three.

As of now, none. I permanently deleted the fb accounts that I used to communicate with 5 and 7.

I have had no contact with 6 since the time frame involved.

I have not sent a formal NC letter to 5/6/7 and had no further communication with any of the others after the time frame involved.

That's not what Melody said. And that one-word change you threw in there certainly changed the tenor of her comment from neutral to negative.

Did you do that on purpose, or are you reading something into this that wasn't there? Please communicate this clearly to your BW. Don't change our wording.

Schlage, *sigh* I think this may be third time I am posting to you trying to get to the bottom of this. That is a sign that you are not being fully honest.

You were also supposed to list the NC date and dday for your BW on all of these. That is missing for 1-4.

For 1-4 also if there was ANY physical contact AT ALL (hugging, groping, a peck) please list exactly what it was.

Nos 1-3, so you chatted, met up one time and never spoke again? When you met, what did you do? Watch a movie? Sit in a car and talk? At the end of the date did you say, never contact me again?

I have learned the hard way that vague language like "didn't go anywhere" means you are leaving something out. Please cut and paste the above and fill in the information you are leaving out.

Also you left out the thing from 2008. I understand you don't want to go into all the details but you could still list with length of time and when was date of last contact with tha tperson

Sorry, that was unintentional. I thought she would take it as a negative either way it's worded. I didn't say anything about that comment to my wife. I just said this to her:


Sorry, when I say "didn't go anywhere" I meant that I did not speak or chat or contact them in any way ever again. I didn't think it necessary to send an NC letter to those people.

Let me try this again.

#1, 2004, a few chats / 1 time meeting with Adult Friendfinder contact. Met at a restaurant and talked in person for about 10-15 minutes. No physical contact except possibly an initial handshake and/or hug. I don't remember. Did not contact the person in any way after that. DDay was 9/2009.

#2, 2004, a few chats / 1 time meeting with Adult Friendfinder contact. Met at a downtown pub, played a game of pool and had a beer and talked while we played. No physical contact except possibly an initial handshake and/or hug. I don't remember. Did not contact the person in any way after that. No NC letter. DDay was today since I just remembered #2 while writing out the long post for you guys.

#3, 2004, patronized an escort from eros website. Had oral and regular sex with a condom. No contact after that date. No NC letter. DDAy was 10/2011.

#4, 2006, a few months EA with work person, met twice to "hang out", did not get physical. Possibly a hug goodbye when I moved away. Communicated via work email. Last contact of any kind was when I ran into her on base here because she was on a work thing here maybe 6 months after I left MD. The nature of that encounter was not a "rekindling" in any way - just a "what have you been up to how's life" thing. No NC letter. DDay was either 9/2009 or 10/2011. I don't remember which.

#5, 2009, 6 mo, fb and then in person affair with former HS girlfriend. Hotel sex during a series of 4 work trips. Verbal NC 9/2009 and wife's DDay was 10/2011. no additional NC yet since DDay.

#6, 2009, 2-3 mo EA via fb with former neighbor. no NC, wife's DDay was 9/2009

#7, 2011, 2 mo EA via fb with former HS friend. no NC yet, wife's DDay was 10/2011

So once you add in the 2008 incident, is this the complete list? Any additional ddays are going to make it that much harder to recover (as you can see) so it would be best to get it all on the table NOW and not hide anything else.

If this is the complete list, I would give it to your BW, answer any and all questions she may have for you regarding the list and then submit to a polygraph.

This recovery isn't going anywhere until you have a) fessed up to everything and b) your BW has some assurance that you are finally being radically honest.

The tester can tailor the questions to only be asking that you haven't intentionally left anything out. chickadee, whose H was a serial cheater, had this type of poly done.

Schlag:

You said:

"I met her in person on four short business trips to the east coast from April through August of 2009. I didn't feel like I loved her but she told me she loved me and I said it back to her because I didn't want to admit that I was using her to feel good. I still don't believe that I loved her but that question is one that gave me trouble on the polygraph. so I don't know. It's complicated and I'm trying to sort it out."



The reason you "had trouble" with this question on the lie detector is because polygraphs are designed to identify deception. Your behavior in this situation - telling the OW that you were "in love" with her was DECEPTION. The polygraph would pick this up; the polygrapher would need to go through his questions and make sure to section out the questions more carefully in order to be sure he was getting through to the underlying issue before he could get an accurate read.

You cannot ask a question about deception using a polygraph unless you know there was deception involved. My guess is that is what happened.


SB

I'm here. I'm Amy, the wife.

What Schlag96 is leaving out is he gave me his passwords and access to his phone back after the emotional affair that I caught in Sept. 2009 to make me feel "safe" and he just had fake e-mails and fake facebook pages to facilitate the affairs. He also had a pay as you go phone that I didn't know about so he wouldn't get caught on his real phone. Lies upon lies upon lies. So, giving me his passwords and phone access and all of that doesn't make me feel safe AT ALL.

�We judge others by their behavior. We judge ourselves by our intentions.�

Welcome to MB, Amy. It is good that you have come here.

You need to start your own thread and stay off your husband's. Posting to his thread will lead to quarrels and disruption. You each need your own thread on which to get help.

Hi Ama.
Welcome to MARRIAGE BUILDERS !!!

There's that sense Mel was talking about. Welcome, Amalynn. I'm sure you're going to be advised to start your own thread, so I'll go ahead and say it.

NOBODY here would blame you one bit for walking away from this mess. However, if you want to try to repair this, there are people here to help you. Probably better done on your own thread.

Amalynn, thanks for signing up so we can speak to you. I fully understand that giving you the passwords does nothing. This is why he needs to set up a lifestyle that makes it virtually impossible for him to cheat. When I asked him what would prevent him from having another affair, he gave me nothing except a load of crap and psychobabble that made me very concerned for you.

What it will take is for you to have access to EVERY computer he is on, [even if he has to get another job] every cell phone he uses, and to never spend the night apart again. Even that will not be enough but I am not going to say it here because we have spy techniques we will only share with you.

In short, he has to make a DRAMATIC 180 radical change to transform his life in a way that it would be impossible for him to cheat again. That is what it will take.

His going to therapy is a complete and total waste of time. It is a distraction from the main issue, which is changing his personal behavior. If he is off flapping his lips at a therapist's office, then he is not focused on making the necessary changes to affair proof your marriage.

Dr. Harley is a clinical psychologist and the founder of Marriage Builders and here is what he says about such therapy:



here

here

here

NOTHING your husband has told us makes me believe you are safe with him. That can change, but as long as focuses on nonsense like "finding himself" and other foolishness, he is not focused on ways to change his behavior in a way that would effect an affair proof marriage. He is not safe until that happens.

Now, on to the other issue.


You are a serial cheater.


I know you.

I am married to you, or at least, a version of you.


My husband has had .... gosh.... I have to think now.

1976, a ONS
1979, left me for EA, and this didn't pan out for him, and he came home
1979, he got home and had a ONS about, oh, maybe two nights later (what a mess he was)
1990 ish EA - he just revealed this to me, and lied for nearly 20 years about it despite my near-constant attempts to get him to talk about it.
2005 PA

He had porn issues, too.




His idea was that porn didn't really matter; it had no impact on me, and it was something he "just did". I often asked him to stop - he said that it bugged him when I said this because, like you, he felt like I wanted to "control him".

I didn't want to control him. I felt hurt by his porn viewing, and its impact on our SF. He grew more and more interested in porn, it led to more fantasy on his part, and he - like you - began to look outside the marriage for his fantasy life to be fulfilled.


Your sense of "control" was/is nothing more than your reaction to being told that you are doing the wrong thing - and not liking it.

You knew at the time it was wrong. People do not like being told things they are doing are wrong - and they react by getting angry, and blaming the other person for being "controlling" or "mean spirited" or "not understanding".


I also want to point out that you said that many people don't understand you. My guess is that they understand you just fine; they back off because you tend to withhold information they need, lie by omission, or manipulate the truth to fit your own needs. You likely also trickle truth them, and offer a "reason" why you didn't tell them the entire truth right away if they come back and ask why you didn't mention this part or that part if they find out something more. You probably say, "Oh, I was going to mention that but....", or "I didn't think you would be interested, " or "I didn't want to hurt ______", or "I was going to tell you but...."


And then you offer just enough to skate by to the next thing.


They understand just fine.

This will NOT work for recovering from an affair. If you do this, you WILL lose your marriage and your family.


FAIR WARNING.


SB

Welcome to Marriage Builders, Amalynn! I'm sure you don't feel safe right now. We're going to work with your husband on that, don't worry.

In the meantime, please start your own thread - it's easier to help you that way. Tell us your story, starting from when you got married.

Again, welcome!

I don't know what to say.

I want to never lie to my wife again.

I want to have great communication and radical truth.

I would do anything to save my marriage, including change jobs and cut lifestyle and move to a cheaper part of the country. But how do you escape temptation? It's everywhere. Isn't the biggest part of the solution solving the reason WHY I go looking for something outside my marriage?

No, it is changing your behavior and your ENVIRONMENT so you are not tempted again. Who cares why? You don't have to know WHY you do something in order to change.

Because you are selfish. Knock it off. Get over yourself, and realize that there are other people in this world. Real feeling human beings. You affect them, even if they have no affect on you at all. Escape temptation by removing yourself from it. Easy as s&@t.

Schlag, as you know, your BW is posting on this site. Please stay off her thread. We're going to ask her to do the same with yours. This will help both of you.

Amen.

You guys that are saying I love myself are WAY off.

I despise myself and I have for years.

Then, why should your wife love you?
Are you saying that you consider yourself to be a hopeless mess?

Quit feeling sorry for yourself.
It's very unattractive.

Narcissists always do. And you try to fix it externally, rather than where the problem lies. You will like yourself if you never do anything you aren't proud of. Proud in the way of glory to God or would tell your folks or share your pride with your wife and children.

I've always been amazed that she loved me so much.

I'm not hopeless. I have a lot of good qualities. She'll tell you herself when she's not wanting to rip out my eyeballs and jam them in the garbage disposal.

I am not feeling sorry for myself, just sorry about what I did.

Thanks.

Going to therapy to explore the WHY is one of the issues I discussed with Dr Harley regarding my STBXWH who is also a serial cheater.

What if the therapist tells you an underlying childhood issue is the reason for your cheating? Then what? Poof, you are going to stop cheating? Stay in therapy for years discussing the childhood issue and you will be cured? Think about it...

Dr Harley says that we are ALL wired for an affair and that everybody would unfaithful under certain conditions and nobody would be unfaithful under other conditions. That it is the conditions that have more to do with unfaithfulness than anything else.

If you can't control yourself and you can't resist any temptation, then all opportunity needs to be taken away. In addition to changing your job, integrating your lifestyles so that you spend most of your free time together, NO female friends, probably no cell with texting/internet capability, no email, no social networking, just to name a few things...

I don't think so.

Not really. Were you thrilled with the chase? Were you feeling powerful with each conquest? Did you think of what you were doing to your wife, kids, parents, inlaws, friends, siblings, etc... When you were engaging in affairs?

No? Why? because you were seeking self satisfaction. Why? Because you love yourself.

No it isnt. There are no temptations in my life. I am a BS - one who has been dumped for the OW and that makes me incredibly vulnerable to a 'revenge affair'. Though i dont want one, I recognise that I may stumble into one. I recognise affair proofing myself as MY responsibility.

I even have vultures circling around me seeking to make good on my vulnerability but its not a problem because I have rules.

I dont speak to men about personal matters or get involved in indepth chats

I dont chat to men online

I dont spend time alone with men



You may think that I am different to you, that there is soemthing wrong with you that only a therapist can ferret out.

Not at all. If I behaved like you the results would be the same. Early on in my marriage when I didnt understood EPs, I treated male friends in just the same way I did my female friends, sharing caring and laughing with them.

I let them meet needs. I wanted their admiration and interesting conversation and I told myself it was harmless.

I never did get into an EA thankfully, but I started to feel the temptation to, which is when I put in EPs and started behaving like someone who was married.

With no EPS in place, even though I was very happily married, there was temptation.

With EPs in place, even though I am alone and betrayed, there is no temptation.

It really is as simple as that. By making it more complicated you are delaying doing the work.

But how do you escape temptation? It's everywhere. - Schlag

No it isnt. - Indiegirl

Always the contrarian, I'm going to disagree with you on this, IG. As a mtter of fact, I don't have to, because you refuted your statement almost immediately, but in doing so you provided Schlag with the answer to his issue:

I even have vultures circling around me seeking to make good on my vulnerability but its not a problem because I have rules...I dont speak to men about personal matters or get involved in indepth chats...I dont chat to men online...I dont spend time alone with men

Look, it's not just in marital/sexual connotations that temptations exist. They do, for ALL of us. But as part of establishing a way to co-exist with the millions of fellow inhabitants, we develop tactics and boundaries to fight off those temptations and conduct ourselves in civil manners.

I see a hot sports car parked on the street. I'd like to drive off in it, and I know enough about cars to be able to hot-wire start it. I do NOT do so, becasue in the greater scheme of things, enjoying such a joy-ride would likely bring high levels of misery and stress (arrest, etc) down on myself and my family.

With affairs, the "costs" of straying are rarely so clear, and the approach to a full betrayal is so well paved with apparently "harmless" interactions at its start that there is no necessary "big step" that most WSs must consider taking. It results from a myriad number of "little steps". The only way to NOT risk cheating once again is to recognize that the first "little step" is the one that must be declined (Sound like an AA paradigm? It should, we're fighting the same insidious process.)

This is where the tool of jointly established, verifiable EPs comes in.

Thanks everyone.

I'm working on EP's for my work. I have gone to my supervisor and the main boss above that this morning and had a meeting about finding a way to have full tracking / logging / accountability for Amy in some way. They are going to make it a priority to figure out if it's possible and how to do it. If I can't solve the work computer issue then more drastic measures will be necessary.

Last night Amy created an administrator password on our home desktop computer until such time as she can install whatever monitoring you guys tell her to. So if I want to get on the computer I have to have her log in, and once she goes to bed it is logged off so I can't get on.

Last night I ran around our block for my couch-to-5k run instead of going to the gym.

This morning I'm going to write "official" NC letters to #5/6/7.

Great!



Did you ask her if she enthusiastically agreed to this? She might not want you out of the house for recreation without her at all right now. Make sure you are choosing things that she is enthusiastic about rather than the lesser of two evils.

If she can't imagine a scenario where she would be enthusiastic about you going to the gym (i.e., her going with you, a family member going with you) then cancel the membership.

Yes, we had a conversation about where I should run. I settled on the block we live on because if she wants to see me all she has to do is step out front of our house and wait a minute or two. I'd be okay with not running at all and switching to the shred or P90X or something totally inside if that's what she wants.

Right now she spends most of her time angry and telling me it's not worth the trouble of doing EPs because I'm a sick [censored] that has piled lies on top of lies and deceit in the past.

So I just tell her (100% truthfully) that I know she may or may not decide to stay in our marriage, and it is absolutely her decision and her right to choose one way or the other, but until we are divorced I'm going to do the EPs - to make it possible for her to decide to stay.

I just pray there is something we can figure out for my work because in the current state of things, she would rather divorce me and have me keep my good job so I can pay her her child support - than have me find another job where we cut lifestyle and move.

Thread of Extraordinary Precautions HERE

This is a great thread about EPs. Make your own list, present it to your dear wife. WRITE them out, sign them and start living these rules.

I just read Trueheart's Letter.

...what do we do when they DON'T see themselves with us the rest of their lives? When they are angry and tell us they can't wait to be with someone who isn't a sick lying [censored]?

...what can I do besides live to serve her, be there for her, send NC letters, and do as much EPs as I can?

Put in the time .... then ask
You have not yet put in the TIME .... and you are not getting any guarantee. That's what is bothering you.

You accept that as a consequence of your actions, sir.

This seems somewhat passive to me unless I missed something else regarding EPs. Allowing your BW to monitor your computer interactions is passive and puts the responibility on her.

You have proven yourself to be very dangerous on the computer and around women. As a BW, I would not feel reassured with what you have offered up in the way of EPs thus far.

If you look at HPB/tst's list, you will see a stellar example of an active form of implementing EPs. Yours actually need to be stronger than his since you have had so many affairs online, ie, if you were my WH I would not want you using the internet at all. What about your cell phone? Do you have internet/texting capability on that? If so you should remove it.

You never responded to my post regarding the poly. Are you going to submit to that test regarding the fact that you are not intentionally hiding any other affairs?

I don't know what you mean by HPB/tst's list?

I listed earlier EP's that we have already done - deleting my facebook permanently, deleting fake facebooks and emails. Changed the passwords to random strings so I can never recover them. She just thinks that I can create new ones, which is a valid concern and is why it's necessary for the monitoring and/or poly.

I already took a polygraph a week ago. I passed the questions about touching minors and about having sex with anyone but Amy and the two others during our marriage. I passed the question about having seen the OW in person since 9/2009.

The other two questions gave me trouble - whether I was in love with the former HS girlfriend, and a question about oral sex with anyone else during our marriage.

There's no one else that I have had oral sex with. At the time of the polygraph I was still hiding the fact that I had performed oral sex on the prostitute. I suspect even though the question was about anyone ELSE I still showed deception because I was hiding something about it.

The question on love is difficult - I didn't think I was in love with her but maybe I am in denial because I know how terrible that was to do to Amy. Maybe I loved the feeling I got from the affair. I wondered about being with the OW and whether I would be happier but always concluded that would be a pipe dream and not something I wanted.

HPBs list of EPs is the link of Extraordinary Precaution thread that was linked to you earlier - EP thread HERE

I missed that post, sorry. Thanks.

I have written a letter to send to all friends and family.

Here's my list of EP's.

Let me know what you think.

1. I will switch phones with you so that I don't have internet access on my phone. I will switch my phone number to a new one if you want. I will confirm whether or not texts can be accessed on the Verizon site and if not, disable texting on my phone.
2. I have already eliminated all social networking accounts. I will not make any more.
3. I will take polygraphs as often as I need to in the future to prove anything that can't be demonstrated otherwise.
4. I will install (or you can) software on the home computer so that everything I do is transparent. I will return the work laptop to the office permanently and buy one for you to use that you can password protect or install monitoring.
5. You already have access to all financial accounts.
6. I will work with an attorney to write a post-nuptial agreement.
7. I will quit my membership at the gym and only work out at home or close by.
8. I will not use cash. If I ever need cash for anything I will go through you.
9. I will explain to you the particulars of my pay statement so you know what everything is and where every penny of ours is going.
10. I will go to bed with you every night and not stay up later than you.
11. I will be 100% accountable with my time.
12. I will figure out how to be accountable on my work computer or get a job where I can.
13. I will protect you and your feelings above all else.
14. I will not participate in any one-on-one meetings with anyone of the opposite sex.
15. I will not discuss my personal marriage issues with anyone of the opposite sex.
16. I will not attend clubs, strip joints, or any such establishment
17. I will use the MB policy of joint agreement as a basis for all decisions.
18. I will be open and honest with you at all times about the past and present.
19. I will tell you where I need to go if it's not work or home, and if I need to make an adjustment to my schedule, I will notify you of the change immediately.
20. I will make your phone calls my highest priority by answering them or returning them immediately.
21. I will avoid all chat rooms, porn, member sites, etc.
22. I will commit to at least 15 hours of undivided attention with you to meet each other's emotional needs every week.
23. If any former contact finds a way to make contact, I will immediately end the contact and notify you.
24. I will put up any other boundary you ask of me.
25. I will read my "letter to myself" every morning, as well as Romans 6 through 8 and Hebrews 10:26 every single day to remind myself that one slip means losing you and my family and my eternal salvation.
26. I will bring you with me on any work travel, or I won't go.
27. I will not drink alcohol unless in the presence of you, and won't drink more than you consider appropriate.

No the vultures are not a temptation! ew are you kidding...

Ok, NG, I do like your �just say no whatever the temptation� attitude. And I agree with it 100 per cent. But EPs DO keep temptations out.....




People do steal cars, though . In certain situations they just ignore the consequences so they can get the rush of stealing the car.

But nobody wakes up one day and decides to steal a car out of nowhere. Same thing with affairs � nobody gets up totally faithful and with good boundaries in the morning and sleeps with an escort before the day is out.

It always starts small. Stealing sweets, hanging out with bad friends, who justify bad actions comes before the car theft. Just as flirting online/inappropriate conversations etc comes before the affair.

Yes temptations are �there� in that they exist out there in the world somewhere. But sexual temptations shouldn�t be a part of the life of anyone who is married.

I am just trying to explain to Schlag that if temptations are there it is because he has allowed them to be.

I.e.



He shouldn�t have been talking to a woman about her sex life at all. He created the temptation. He went looking for it.

Thats why Shlag's focus should be on EPs, rather than complaining they are pointless because they are 'everywhere'.

They are where you allow them. Inside or out.

Don't miss any more posts, okay? Re-read everything in your thread carefully and make a todo list from what you are reading, then go through the list and do it all. On your list, include questions that people have asked you as well as things you need to go do. If you want your marriage to continue, don't leave any of this undone, or any post unread.

Right now my wife hates me and doesn't have any interest in EPs.

She switched the "Legal Separation" to "Dissolution of Marriage" last night.

It's just so awful that two years ago I blew my chance to fix things because I didn't have the help I needed here. I didn't institute radical truth or joint agreement - I half-assed some EP's but they were basically meaningless and now she feels that I already had my chance to fix it when I never really had the chance. #7 wouldn't have happened if I had done things right. We'd be two years into recovery and exploring how to meet each other's EN's instead of living this hell.

I just feel so lost. I am consumed with regret.

Divorces don't happen in an instant. You should be more concerned about righting the wrong by being the best man and husband you can be than having a second or third or fourth.... how many chances is it now?

Stop worrying about whether or not you get to go back to being her husband in a comfort zone. You should never want to go back there anyway.

Court her. Be kind and patient and all those things that a selfish person cannot sincerely do.

Do it without expectation of a single kindness from her.

Do it without self-flagellating about how bad you are. She already knows. She feels it. Stop it. It looks like you're trying to win by pity.

Be the best you can be because it's the right thing to do. Become the man you were meant to be without expectation of reward.

Got it?

Yeah, Thanks. I needed that.

Your wife needs help with all the babies. I was breastfeeding my four month old when my WH lit the bomb on my family. I was able to get a nanny to help because some days I couldn't get out of bed. I have a ton of kids, and the best thing you can do for her is get her help.

Can you hire someone for housework, cooking, with the kids?

I remember my hell after D-day and having the extra hands around the house so I could go die in my bed was what I needed.

Hey, overall I think these are great EPs. I'll let the others chime in.

CV

Schlag,

A lot can happen between here and divorce court. Ok... She doesn't have interest in Eps. Work them for yourself so you are a better person regardless of whether she stays or bails. You can't fix the past, but you can change who you are now and who you will be in the future.

CV

In any relationship for the rest of your life going forward will need EP's. You are a danger to women.

If you are to raise your precious babies do it right. Demonstrate for them the man you want them to either marry or become.

Live your EP's everyday so you know you are a man of character, integrity, and honor.

I can't hire someone but I can help her. I already helped her before and things are no different now. i always cooked and did laundry and such. More than her. we hired a cleaning lady every 2-4 weeks to catch up but I'll probably have to clean more now.

Also her mom and stepdad were here last week and my mom is now here for a week.
********************************
Side issue - I'm having a problem "trickling truth". She keeps saying that.

I want to be honest and am trying to be honest. i give her details when she asks specific questions, usually because I don't remember the details until she asks about them. Then she gets pissed off all over again.

Everything I did except #7 was 2.5+ years ago and I have a terrible memory as it is.

I'm thinking about putting together a written document of everything I can remember with as much detail as I can. Would this be good? It still doesn't change the fact that when she asks me about specific things I remember them.

Schlag,
Do you realize that the EP's really have nothing specific to do with your current wife? These are things you are going to need to do regardless if your marriage survives or not.

I think you are doing and saying these things to get your wife back and I believe thats the wrong justification.

Right now you need to concentrate on becoming the Christian man you were designed to be regardless of how your wife reacts.

A document would be great. Something you could write out or print and give to her. Remember it will hurt her to read it all.

Do this... Make a calendar as best you can. Fill in all the specific details (just facts) and then write it out in a story type of form. Avoid saying things like "I felt my wife was X. Keep it about you and what you did only. Give her time to read it and process it. Then give her time to ask any questions she has and answer them totally, making yourself available to answer follow up questions she may have. encourage her to write the questions down so you can answer them as well. As you do this, your memory may return

CV

If I wasn't with my wife I would have no need for a computer keylogger or to have a phone without internet or to go to bed with her and not stay up. I understand I would need certain boundaries with women but if she divorces me some of those boundaries would not be needed any more...

true but there are what...20-something others that you can follow for you.

You still have a resposibility to try and heal her pain even if she does not give you what you want in the end. It isnt about you. Right now she is struggling to breathe for the pain you have inflicted.

Well, the decision of staying or leaving this marriage is really hers and hers only right now.

If you read EPs thread carefully it said:


I read your list of EPs and I would like you to consider a few things:


Think through really well how you will do that, if possible ask your wife HOW would she like you to be fully accountable. Right now, when she doesn't want you around let alone discuss your EPs, you have to make up the full accountability HOWs by yourself. Your W's anxiety level will stay really high for a long time, so you need to think through every single step how you can ease her anxiety by providing the care she needs.


What will you do to avoid such holes? Change your phone number, block all their numbers and e-mail accounts known to you in every single computer/phone you have in use right now. You will not WAIT the contact to happen but you will be proactive about that.

You have said in your list that you will make sure to spend 15 hrs of undivided attention with each other to meet each other's ENs.

Marriages in trouble need much more, this 15 hrs is for maintaining romantic love, for CREATING one, it takes 20+ hrs. And as you have damaged your W greatly, then you cannot expect her to meet your ENs right now, in fact for a while.

Nothing happens overnight, it took you many years to mess things up, it will take many years to make it right.

Actually you will still have the need. You have shown that you are vulnerable when on the internet and you use the phone inappropriately. That won't change if your marriage doesn't survive. An alcoholic doesn't stop being an alcoholic when the booze is taken away.

Again your answer proved to me that you are doing these EP's for the wrong reason. They are for you. They are boundaries that you are erecting to stop yourself from doing bad things to other people (including your wife).

Hmmm, you do know that any other relationship you get into, you would still need to take precautions as the same conditions that led you to your previous affairs would still be present if you do not take EP'S.

I tried to fix things with my stbx and it did not work. But I will take what I have learned to ensure that any relationship I get into in the future, I do not repeat my mistakes and will follow the EP's I gave to my stbx and keep the new boundaries I have developed. The boundaries are your limitations to protect yourself, your spouse and your relationship.

Yes, it does take a lot of work to fix this whole mess you created on your own. But you have hurt your wife more than you'll ever know (if you are lucky you will never experience it). Show some care and respect for her, she is hurting and you two have a baby who is still being breastfed. It is not all about you. That is what led you to the affairs.

You should know that if she decides to work on things, she is giving you an undeserving gift that no wayward ever deserves.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html

Read about just compensation and make sure to watch the infidelity video.

I've already watched the video and read the article on just compensation. I'm there already on my side of it. I have no desire to be involved with any of the women ever again and my wife has sent NC's to #6 and #7 via her facebook, and we will together send the NC to #5 tonight. We are working out how to implement EP's at the office and are already implementing EP's at home. I have already told her that I am committed to radical honesty and started demonstrating it to her. We haven't talked much about POJA yet but we'll do that in the near future. As far as the last part, emotional needs, she is not in a place to care about my emotional needs yet nor should she be. But I am doing my best to fill her emotional needs in any way that she will let me.

-Affection: is not really allowed, but I tell her that I love her and leave her a note every morning.
-Conversation: Most of our conversation is about what a sick f#$k I am, but I try to be there for as much conversation as she wants.
-Recreational Companionship: We're not dating but we still do stuff with the kids and go to church together.
-Honesty and Openness: Radical honesty and openness.
-Physical Attractiveness: Making diet and exercise a priority both for her EN and for my own health.
-Financial Support: nothing has changed
-Domestic Support: ramping this up even more in this difficult time for her
-Family Commitment: never wavered
-Admiration: It's hard for her to accept anything nice from me because she's so much better than me and thinks of me as pond scum right now - and who cares if pond scum says they're awesome right? But I'll keep trying.

Think waaaay back... Back to when you dated. What did you do when you started dating? Buy her flowers? Cards? surprise dinners? start there.

I never stopped that! well, in the context of having 4 kids it slowed down but I never stopped doing that kind of stuff.

Obviously it's hard to do now because she takes it as me sucking up and rejects it.

I can understand if you did these things at the same time as having the affairs. It does not have the same impact since it was not special anymore to her. I dont know if I explained that right but it might even be a trigger for her. She knew you did these things when your love was split between her and someone else. She may even be thinking in her mind you might have originally bought them for someone else and the meeting fell through and you brought them home as a 2nd best.

You may not have done that but her mind is going to come up with the worst case right now on everything.

She may need something you have never done before but she would feel the impact.

Guys, help me brainstorm here.

I'm trying!!

arrange for a sitter and go on a picnic, walk in the park, see a movie. Don't just bring her a single rose, or even a dozen, bring her a dozen tulips (or whatever she likes). Make a date of going for massages (make sure you get a dude doing yours, no triggers!). Baby her like you've never done. Do something she likes... Heck I dunno... paint her toenails or something.

Keep doing it anyway.

Its takes time for her to be sure that you aren't just "sucking up".

Have you heard of the book "The Love Dare"? That may be something to look at.

I don't think right now she's ready for me to be doing these things, honestly. We are only 12 days post D-day and she changed the separation papers to dissolution 2 nights ago.

She's very angry at me and she's getting the detailed anti-trickle letter tonight or tomorrow night.

I've done the love dare after the first incomplete D-day in 9/2009 so she will probably hate me if I try to do it again.

Do not stop now, that will send her the message that you don't care after all. She is in pain, shocked, angry, feels hopeless and is also probably very tired also, you need to be there for her, make her life as comfortable as possible, help her in any ways you can, this is not you time right now. Please, don't run away when she is in pain.

What are you saying Schlag? Do you want your betrayed wife to draw up a plan of action for you? Smile and invite you to take part? Be realistic. Your actions have assaulted her. She is bleeding on the floor, unconscious and you are asking her if she wants an ambuance.

Even if the ambulance IS too late - you dont want to be the guy who didnt even TRY to help her do you?

As betrayed wife I can tell you. There is a point where it may be too late. But your showing love and dedication, MAY save your marriage and even if it is too late, it will heal some of her pain. Plus you will know you did all you could to save your marriage and your children will know too.

I keep coming back to this one mentally. You do understand that it was always - and still is - in your control to change anything about yourself that you dont like.

You wouldnt stand around moping about a feature on your house you despised would you? You would get the tools out and get to fixing it.

The EPs are your tools and the hurt you have perpetrated on your wife is the despicable feature you want to remove.

By getting to work, you will show yourself and others what you are made of, whatever happens.



The chance two years ago is gone, but todays chance is here. You have help. Are you gong to seize the challenge or throw a pity party?

Your decision.

Did you see the movie Fireproof?

Who benefited most from the "Love Dare"?

EPs are never meaningless.

Yes we saw it together before 9/2009.

I think I benefited the most.


Apparently putting a keylogger on my computer is meaningless because my wife says I can just look up how to get around it.

Sir, you are beginning to royally PI$$ ME OFF ! (Imagine that - NG getting riled!)

"I can't do the love dare, because I failed at it last time, and BW knows that!"
"It's useless to put a keylogger on my computer because BW knows I can neuter it!"

Okay, pal, do this: Have BW put a password on your hard-drive and your operating system, so she has to give you access, and only when she's available to observe your sorry butt using it.

Go ahead - give us the excuse du jour why this won't work!

My suggestion - you have lost all computer access. You are not allowed on the computer at all EVER. If you use the computer; your wife sits with you.

Please knock off this nonsense. This is simple "pity-party" crap that your wife, the mother of your four kids, does not deserve at all.

Make her feel safe - I would also remove all internet, text, and app capability from your cell phone also.

Do you want this marriage? Do you want your wife? If not, then sign over the house, 50% of your paycheck, full custody of the kids to her, and move on with your life.

What are you going to do today to make your wife feel safe?

Schlag,

The one thing that I see you are very well-versed in?

How to shoot down anything that looks like it might be successful.


Right now, I think you look at suggestions and think, "If I do that, it will involve a lot of work. I will have to look like I am am humbled and humiliated. Also, it means that I will never be able to have any sexual escapades outside of my marriage again - and I am really not fully ready to accept this."

Your responses push back. The responses, "I already tried that" tell me that you really mean


"I started to do that. It looked to me like I was having to give up too much of what I wanted. So I stopped it, because I am NOT GIVING UP WHAT I WANT."


When I read your post about the EP's, I thought this was pretty good. Then, I read your post about the idea that "if" you were divorced you wouldn't need some of them, my mind threw up lots of red flags.

Why?

This tells me that you don't get the meaning of the EP's. You don't understand that EP's are like fences. They have two purposes.


Fences keep the yard safe from outside predators. They keep skunks from coming in and spraying your dogs. They keep the neighborhood strays from coming in and getting your poodle pregnant. Fences keep the prying eyes of passing cars from looking in on your sunbathing. A good fence keeps your patio furniture from blowing away in a storm, and from being the subject of envy or the target of thieves.

The other side of a good fence? It keeps you out of your neighbor's business. It marks a boundary so you don't go planting your flowers on your neighbor's lawn. You don't find yourself digging a new garden right in the middle of your friend's spot for the shed he was planning to build. You know exactly where your space ends, and where you are allowed to spread your seed for grass, petunias, or oak trees. Your dogs can tear up anything inside that fence, and you are the one who can leave it alone, deal with it, fix it, or call for help if you decide to do that. You can have your own limits inside that fence, and you determine for yourself how safe that world is.


Your EP's make your world safe for you. It does not matter who is inside the fence with you, Schlag. YOU need to be safe. What has happened in your marriage is that you have had NO BOUNDARIES whatsoever - and your world has crashed through the floor.

Only you do not see that.

And you stand there, STILL, like a little child, angry because your wife is mad at you for acting the way you did. You are pouting and saying, "Well, I already tried to be a good kid, back awhile ago, and it didn't work." Well, that is because you really didn't try, Schlag. Back awhile ago you didn't WANT to be a good kid. You wanted what you wanted, which was to have no boundaries. You still wanted to have sexual affairs and encounters with other women. So THAT IS WHY IT DID NOT WORK.

You find yourself against the wall now.

You are pouting and angry because you are realizing that you must change, or lose it all. You are pushing back right now because you do not like the reality of this.


My message to you is a harsh, harsh reality:

You believe you are broken.

You are not yet broken. When you stop pushing back, and you crumble, THEN you will be broken.

That is when your wife MIGHT stop the divorce train.

At this point, I think you are still foggy.


Get this book: Leadership and Self-deception: Getting out of the box
By The Arbinger Institute.


Read it as fast as you can, and absorb the message.


You need to understand your issue.


SB

And yes, I know that was hard to read.

I want your marriage to succeed.

Sometimes the message has to be hard.

If you don't put EP in place, you WILL either resume affair or have another and if you REFUSE to put EP in place, then if it were me, I would not be married to you any second longer.

Why? Your marriage is not a safe place for your spouse.

At this point either you WILL put EP in place and try to heal your M and move forward, or you WON'T. Will or won't. none of the "can't b/c it's bull puckey to say "I can't do this or that.." What that REALLY translates to is..."I WON'T DO THAT".

And that would indicate a desire and intent NOT to make your marriage safe for your wife.

That's the way we've been operating the last week.

Can anyone please comment on the keylogger issue that has specific knowledge of it - I want to install one that she got as a suggestion from y'all so that she can see everything that I do on my computer. She says that I can just look up how to get around it. Can somebody with knowledge of it please tell me whether it would be an effective solution? Assume I'm a computer genius who can figure out pretty much anything. Can I defeat it and what solution could I use other than the direct observation that we're using?

@schoolbus: I appreciate everything you say.

I have done all the work and I have instituted the 27 EP's. We're working through them. Some take time. We switched out phones so I have the brick and she has the droid. She put an admin password on my desktop so I only use it in her presence unless I can figure out a better solution with the keylogger stuff.

I guess I'm coming off as resistant to doing the keylogger thing when in reality I'm taking these solutions to her for "approval" to see if they are acceptable to her as an EP measure and she has doubts, which I bring to you guys for help.

I am broken and I am ready to do what it takes. I'm already doing what it takes.

Yes I am feeling sorry for myself here and there because I'm living every day with the consequences of the choices I made. I am very active in trying to get past that when it pops up. I'm doing everything that I can every minute of the day for her and the kids.

I am NOT pouting and angry.

Schlag ya know fella I told your BW not to believe you until she has you do a polygraph. Simple reason, if you are putting up so many barriers to why loggers wont work and then this and that, other suggestions and advice why they all won't work, then fella you have things to hide.

Mate its not rocket science, you either have nothing to hide or you do, right?

So what if you know how to get around a key logger. A tech reporting only to your wife could spot check that something was done to the PC at the very least. And really, thats all she needs to know, that you are not trustworthy still.

So again what do you have to hide? A second, third, fourth OW??? Ongoing contact? Evidence of sexual contact? whatever fella.

If you want to remain married you had better stand up and be counted, the pity party is not impressing anyone here so how do you think it comes across to your wife?

Its time to stop peeing in the wind and get off your butt and start SHOWING your wife you are committed to working on this marriage you have stuffed up.

For instance:

have YOU booked the both of you into Dr Harleys sessions yet?

are YOU going to give your wife a list of polygraph operators for her to choose and volunteer for the poly with enthusiasm?

This is just the start, a few more suggestions.

Schlag you are indeed coming off as resistant to doing anything that requires work, commitment, and yeah maybe some pain - for YOU.

Prove us sceptics wrong Schlag. As a beginning call for counselling by Monday evening. Here I'll even help with the toll-free number 1 (888) 639-1639 see not hard and I don't even live in your country.

Its done by telephone so you don't even have to get into a car. Wish I had that as the drives to and from our counsellor were at times excruciatingly silent.

Theres even a discount available - A discount package rate of $195 per session is given when five(5) sessions are purchased in advance. And Schlag you know you are probably going to need more than 5 right??

I guess its up to you Schlag, no one can do it for you. You will either stand up or you won't.
And though you may not believe it, people here would like to see you stand up and do whatever it takes.

So Schlag are you going to give excuses again, or take up the challenge and get the booking in by Monday?

Because the specific eps you wrote are for you, it is on you to implement them. Take charge and implement them then let her know they are there. The longer they are there, the more trust will grow.

CV

Schlag,

You should not be worried about the specifics of how you might get around the key logger. It isn't an issue, because your wife should install one and you should not be concerned that it is there.

Here's why I say you are NOT broken.

YOU SHOULD INSTALL THE KEYLOGGER.

And you should tell your wife it is there. And you should tell her that of course it can be gotten around, because every single computer program has some sort of issue that makes it vulnerable to being defeated.

The fact is that SCHLAG would have no interest in defeating the key logger, because Schlag's ideal world is that he wants to make his wife feel safe and secure. Schlag wants his wife to know exactly what he is doing on the computer.

Schlag wants this so much, that he himself purchases the key logger, installs it, and hands over the instructions so his wife can choose her own password, etc., so she can access it anytime she wants.

He doesn't even go about discussing the ridiculous side issue of how it might even be a possibility that it would be defeated.

Because Schlag WANTS to be an open book. He desires his wife to know all things about his life.

As he goes forward into his new self, Schlag knows that being an open book is the best way to have a marriage that feels right, is safe, and becomes the one he wanted to begin with - when he first met his wife.


BTW - every single time you find yourself in one of these stupid discussions about some nutty side issue - figure out what the RIGHT thing to do is. Chances are it has something to do with doing the right thing for the OTHER PERSON.

SB

I know I shouldn't be posting on Eric's thread here, but I need to interject a bit.

He isn't trying to get around doing the EP, it's *ME* who is saying that the keylogger is useless. I googled how to fool a keylogger and there were MANY websites that give ways to get around it. So, he can easily just do that and it makes the keylogger useless to make me feel safe.

In the past he has given me his FB password to make me feel safe, and then just opened up a "fake" FB... same with e-mail accts. So, I don't trust that he won't just find a way around it.

HE wants to install it to try and make me see what he's doing, but if you can just fool it, I don't believe he won't just do that, ya know? Does this make sense?

It makes perfect sense to me, Amy. He's bit you too many times. He's lost all credibility with you. It makes sense to all of us, if I may be so bold to presume.

So how do we get accountability on the computer besides me just sitting there and watching what he's doing?

And what about his job? Most jobs out there (well, ones that pay enough to support a family of 6) will have an office with a computer......how in the world do we get around this IF I decide a long time from now to trust him? (which I still think is impossible. ugh)

I posted on my own thread about this too in case anyone can help over there.

Yep. Shy of locking him in a tower with an iron mask and a chastity belt (and I would say that is not even 100%) under 24x7 armed guards, there is no way to ensure anything. BUT, he wants to demonstrate, so let him demonstrate. Heck, nothing is lost at this point, why not see how it goes, a day at a time?

he wanted to demonstrate before, CV.

He failed.

Like others have said, he needs to BREAK. Be completely broken, have a come to Jesus moment, and THAT will be evident. It won't be through a keylogger, imho.

I agree. He hasn't quite hit that point yet. I could be wrong, but don't think he has. Amy can judge that much better than me. I guess my point is if he is still WW or a ww in remission, time will tell.

Or a WH, cv!!!

I hope he's not a WW. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Sorry! I'm posting sick (and think I will stop for the night. I meant WH! lol...

Hey guys,

Here's where we're at now:

"Action-required" EP's -

1. I will switch phones with you so that I don't have internet access on my phone. I will switch my phone number to a new one. I will confirm whether or not texts can be accessed on the Verizon site and if not, disable texting on my phone. [DONE. OUR PHONES HAVE BEEN SWITCHED. I DO NOT HAVE INTERNET ON MY PHONE. ALL NUMBERS THAT CALL AND TEXT TO MY PHONE ARE VISIBLE ON OUR VERIZON ONLINE ACCOUNT.]
2. I have already eliminated all social networking accounts. I will not make any more. [DONE]
3. I will take polygraphs as often as I need to in the future to prove anything that can't be demonstrated otherwise. [FIRST POLYGRAPH DONE, WILL TAKE ANY MORE AS NEEDED.]
4. I will install (or you can) software on the home computer so that everything I do is transparent. I will return the work laptop to the office permanently and buy one for you to use that you can password protect or install monitoring.[RIGHT NOW SHE JUST CONTROLS ACCESS TO THE LAPTOP. MY DESKTOP IS PASSWORD PROTECTED AND I ONLY USE IT IN HER PRESENCE. PURSUING KEYLOGGER SOLUTION SO SHE DOESN'T HAVE TO SIT THERE, THOUGH I ACTUALLY QUITE ENJOY HAVING HER THERE TO TALK TO.]
6. I will work with an attorney to write a post-nuptial agreement.[NEED TO DO THIS. IF IT REQUIRES AN ATTORNEY IT WILL HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL WE HAVE THE MONEY BUT I CAN GET STARTED ON IT MYSELF.]
7. I will quit my membership at the gym and only work out at home or close by. [DONE.]
9. I will explain to you the particulars of my pay statement so you know what everything is and where every penny of ours is going. [NEED TO DO THIS.]
12. I will figure out how to be accountable on my work computer or get a job where I can. AS SOON AS I FINISH THIS POST I WILL BE CALLING TO FIGURE OUT WHETHER THEY CAN UNINSTALL IE ON MY WORK COMPUTER (I DO NOT HAVE ADMIN ACCESS TO UNINSTALL OR INSTALL PROGRAMS) - I FIGURED OUT HOW TO LOG ON TO WORK EMAIL FROM HOME USING A CAC READER AND DEMONSTRATED THIS TO AMY AND OFFERED TO LOG IN TO MY WORK EMAIL ANY TIME SHE WANTED.

She requested a new EP for now that I call her immediately on arriving to work and right before I leave work. [STARTED THIS MORNING]

Since she has expressed worries to me about stopping at the library or other place to access internet, I am looking up vehicle GPS tracking - something that is easy for her to see exactly where my car is and has been and for how long.

Amy sent NC from me via facebook to #6/#7 and I sent NC letter via snail mail to #5 in Amy's presence.

For those of you wondering if I'm broken, I am. I wanted to change myself after #6 in 9/2009 but I didn't get the right counseling or take seriously enough the EP's that I was doing on my own. I have had the come-to-Jesus time. I am losing (have lost?) my amazing wife. She was a gift from God to me years before I even believed in God. I spent 10 years not even WANTING to examine what is wrong with me, only finding faults in her. She understandably has had enough of it. I am not asking her to believe in me one last time. I am only asking her to let me do the things I need to do while she heals from the damage I have caused her, and show her through my actions not my words. My words understandably mean nothing. She will either see the changes in me or she won't.

good job, but dont stop working on doing what ever you can to protect amy.

every day, every moment.

dont dismiss her feelings, her world has been rocked by the most devastating loss. you have had many years living with your affairs. this is all new to her. while its all over for you, its just beging for her ( do you understand that).

there are gaps in your ep numbers...

Yes, I understand that it's all new to her.

I only wrote the EP's that are "to-do" EP's - things still requiring some action on my part. Ones that requires consistent action or nonaction are standing EP's that I won't comment on unless I need help with how to accomplish them or need to enhance/adjust them. My full list of 27 EP's is earlier in the thread. I am adding the call-from-work thing until I can get a car GPS that will solve the "wondering where i could be when I'm not in her presence" issues.

I told Amy that I am going to install a hard-wired GPS tracker on my car. When the car is on, they are on. They track everywhere you go, where you stop, and how long you stopped. They have live online viewing of the car's location and they compile reports of every movement the car has made so you can look back.

They generally have some hardware and installation cost of $200-400 and then a monitoring fee monthly of $30-50. My canceled gym membership almost pays for it.

I can't give her 100% certainty on anything, but always knowing where my car is would be a pretty big warm fuzzy. She would DEFINITELY know I wasn't going to any internet cafes or library. I certainly don't have time to walk anywhere like that and I'm always with her or the kids when I'm not at work.

It would also address the leaving-at-night issue. If my car is GPS tracked and the van is in the garage, she would know I'm not taking a car anywhere.

I'm going to install one of these as soon as we have the money.

http://www.liveviewgps.com/live+gps+vehicle+tracking+rtv5.html

http://www.spytechs.com/gps/fleet-tracker.htm

http://www.brickhousesecurity.com/gps-gsm-tracker.html

Oh yeah, I am coordinating with Joyce Harley to call in to MB radio. She has me penciled in for this wednesday the 2nd.

I am looking into the counseling from Steve Harvey, but I think I'll see what Dr. Harvey and Joyce say on wednesday. Right now Amy and I are going to weekly therapy with a very good counselor, and are each doing individual sessions - her once and me twice a week.

Amy isn't in a place right now where she is prepared to give me another chance. She's heard it all before. Except for the truth about my affairs - the real D-Day. We spend all our time talking about the affairs, she asks details and goes over and over all the things I've done to her and ways I've been a bad husband to her over the years. But she is participating in my EPs when I bring them to her.

She is concentrating on getting her head straight after spending so many years being lied to by me. "Getting away from the crazy" her therapist calls it.

I'm concentrating on putting EP's into place, following the advice of the articles here and the people in the threads, while at the same time being there for her and helping her in every way I can. At the same time I am trying to get healthy and work through whatever issues have caused me to reject her love for me and push her away and trample on her for so many years. I want to be a new man and I know everybody says forget therapy and just do the work, but I have a hard time believing it's that simple. Something in me has such a hard time accepting and expressing love and emotion that I need to explore why that is. I can't heal my marriage when I am numb.

Since you have a clearance and use a CAC, I'm going to assume you work somewhere in DoD? If so, I find it very alarming to give unauthorized access to someone even if that access is Unclassified/FOUO.

looking forward to hearing you on the radio. my H and i were on back to back in may.

I would schedule a session with jennifer or steve. It was the best money ever spent, the first call was pricessless.

we then continued for a bit with jennifer. It was the best move i made. I called alone first, then told H and that i would like it if he would give it a shot, so he called and then had a private call with jennifer- that opened his eyes to some things.

I also hear very good things about steve.

we are also seeing someone else but having both jumped started everything. I hope your person is on board with MB- it helps.

I don't understand why you would think offering your BW "transparency" on the computer is an EP? She has expressed that that isn't enough to make her comfortable and I don't blame her. Not one bit.

Given that six or so of your affairs started online (using email, friend finder, FB etc), you should just give up the internet, period. As I told you, Dr Harley says you need to look at the conditions that made your affair (for you six affairs) possible and ELIMINATE those conditions, period. If you have access to the internet at work, I am sorry, most likely you will have to get a job with no internet access. My guess is that Dr Harley will tell you this too based on what he told me for my STBX after I discovered his third affair.

You also need to let her change that password on the desktop computer so she is the one who can log you in or out. It is okay that she is there watching you if that is okay WITH HER.

This issue should be POJA'd.

She should enthusiastically agree to your internet use - not just be "okay" with it. If she wants you to be on MB, then she would likely be enthusiastic about that usage. She may want you to do this posting, but nothing else.

Either way, your internet usage should be pared WAY DOWN, if not eliminated.

And the desktop password should be known only to your wife. You shouldn't have a clue. Sorry, but you have issues with affairs online, and your wife should NOT trust you.

You shouldn't trust yourself, frankly.


You don't quite get it, yet.


I do like that you are installing the key logger, tho. Your wife can at least see if you are cheating on the internet usage, what you are doing, etc., and she can keep tabs on what is happening - both incoming and outgoing.


You will understand, however, your wife won't trust you for a very very very long time, if she ever does. And she shouldn't.

SB

Bump....

I want to come back and read the entire thread.

Maybe I wasn't clear - Amy is the only one with the password to my computer.

But as of last night, she no longer cares about EP's.

What happened last night?

She asked about a detail in my affair - if I touched the OW in a certain way, and it triggered a memory that I relayed to her... but I used poor wording and wasn't clear about it at all. She took it as a much more intimate, loving thing than it really was. It was similar to the way that I touch my wife and it was very hurtful for her. I spent probably 4 hours last night trying to explain why it wasn't the same.

I spent all day one day last week writing out every detail I could remember and gave her a 5 page single spaced document. But there are things that I just don't remember. I'm trying to give her the details when she asks about specific things, and sometimes it comes out the wrong way.

Basically, she is convinced that I loved the OW and I didn't.

Ok, well there are some here that would say that they did love the OW and are still recovering.

She is hurting, you will have to understand that. Dont give up just becuase she is hurting. You did this to her, you need to work hard to fix it.

You are the only one that can fix it. Keep sending love her way and keep making cracks in the wall she has up right now to protect herself.

I definitely didn't. There was no withdrawal for me when I ended it with her after the "fake recovery" D-Day in 9/2009.

I just am totally horrified that not only is she hurting from what I did to her, she's hurting the worst because she thinks I loved this woman. And it is making her want to decide in a final way about filing Dissolution, and cutting off any dialogue.

Regarding the email issue:

I cannot allow anyone access to my work email. Period. I can't even allow coworkers to read my emails. I have a privacy screen on my computer at work so anyone who might enter my workspace is unable to read what might be on my screen.

Still, some idiot has managed to break into my computer THREE TIMES.

One idiot actually stole the computer right off of my desk. Seriously now. Do you really want to know what I have to say that much? Come talk to me. I will give you a piece of my mind.

It is really beginning to pi$$ me off.


And you guys wonder why I have to disappear every now and then. I guess I just explained that.



Today, it took 15 minutes to load my dad gum settings.


So if I am gone for awhile, you all will please understand.



Schlag, please be very careful with allowing your wife access to your work computer.

My headaches are actually from INTERNAL sources, if you can believe this.


Seriously.


Threadjack over.

SB

A "virtual PC" VM on a USB drive is a possible answer. When you leave, you can take your "computer" with you, and it's much easier to hide than a PC or a laptop . I used to use one for my most confidential stuff.

schoolbus, it's probably me but your point here escapes me. Why should Schlag "be very careful" allowing his wife access to his work computer? Do you hink that she might steal his data?

Fortunately, there is a solution for this. If you can't be transparent in your work computer, you can get another job. And that is exactly what Schlag should do. Since his affairs have been initiated on his work computer, then he needs to find another occupation where monitoring of his computer is possible. There is no little job that is worth sacrificing a marriage over.

So yes, schoolbus, you could give him access to your work email if you had another job. The fact that your husband does NOT have such access means your marriage is at risk. And Schlag's marriage is not going to survive that kind of risk.

\
That is outrageous and destructive advice given that his marriage won't make it unless he becomes completely transparent. His affairs have been conducted AT WORK, after all. The success or failure of his marriage depends on that transparency. There is no silly job that is worth his marriage. Read his wife's post from today and you will understand how destructive this advice is:


Her not knowing is causing her emotional and physical damage, so his main problem is not the security of a silly work computer, but the mental and physical health of HIS WIFE. He needs to be "careful" with his marriage and his wife's mental health. Screw his work computer!

Why?

SB and melody are both right.

I can't allow Amy access to my work computer, and as of right now they have shot down all my attempted solutions for getting rid of my internet. I'm going to keep pursuing it. I'm willing to quit my job and move some place cheaper like TX but Amy is not willing to do that yet. As of now she'd rather give up on me and have the child support from my good job and stay around her friends.

How about a third solution that benefits your marriage? Look for a job in the same area. Or start a business together.

Why can't you allow her access to your work computer? Do you bring it home? Is it a laptop?

Melody,

We live in Ventura county, CA. It's just not that simple as "getting another job in our area". To get another job means moving. I am willing to do that. She is not. So right now, I am putting my full energy into solving my "online" issue at my current job. I do not accept that there is nothing that can be done. For security reasons they can't allow any kind of reporting. They also can't uninstall i.e. from my specific machine because all the machines have "core software" according to the NMCI contract.

BUT my new idea to explore is getting IT approval for a specific software that blocks all access to all websites except specific ones approved by an admin password holder. There is family protection software and even windows-based programs for that exact use.

Ie7 Administration kit
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/ie/bb219524

windows live family safety
http://explore.live.com/windows-live-family-safety-xp

I can't allow her access to my work computer because it is against security and IT regulations. I already got a slap on the wrist for bringing her in here once. But I believe that if my Division Head verifies for her that this software is installed and all websites are blocked except ones he specifically approves, she will accept that.

Amy is thinking about whether to inform the OW's husband of what happened. As far as I know they got divorced. That can be confirmed one way or another.

I am not worried about the OW contacting me in the future, but I would be worried about what her or him could be capable of. If not outright violence, he or she could mess with my job easily by calling NCIS and telling them something to mess with my security clearance.

I am not opposed to telling him if there's good reason to but I don't want to expose my family to risk.

Thoughts?

My thought is you should have thought about that before.

Would you want to know if amy was doing this to you and someone knew? There is your answer.

If what you did by having an affair with his wife/ex wife is a disciplinary offence, then if you were disciplined, that would be justice.

If it is a disciplinary offence, then you did something that you knew, or should have known, was unacceptable to your employers and would have an impact on your job.

You did the crime. you deserved to serve the tim.

My H had sex with a woman who was a client of his employers. When I finally exposed to her H (4 years after being messed about with false recoveries), I knew that he could report my H to his employers and H could lose his job. I exposed anyway.

First, I used the same logic as I used to you above. My H should not have taken actions that jeopardised his job, and he deserved this form of justice. He also deserved anything that OWH dished out to him, including physical punishment. My H ruined that man's marriage, and more painful to me than even that, he hurt her kids, badly. They found out about the affair when her 15 year-old son used his mother's phone one day. He found "hundreds" of sexy text messages on it, and told his 18 year-old sister. She, fearing the break up that had nearly happened years earlier after her mother's first affair, told her brother not to tell their father. They wanted their family to stay together. So those two poor wee souls took the decision to keep the knowledge of the affair to themselves. Every now and again the boy would look at the phone and see love messages, sex messages and messages about how his mother didn't love his father - and he didn't dare tell any adult.

By the time I exposed, both children were traumatised by the length and depth of the affair.

My H deserved anything that that poor man, defending his family and their loss, chose to dish out, and it is only by the grace of God and OWH's kind nature that my suffered nothing but shame at exposure. I'm grateful that worse didn't come, but my H deserved it.

Second, if my H had lost his job, OWH would have done us a favour. Cutting off the workplace avenue of contact was the only way to stop this wretched affair. My H has now retired on a much reduced income, and it is very hard for OW (who lives in another country) to contact him. She'd have to email him at home, knowing that I watch the email account and will immediately tell her H, or she'd have to phone this house, and she know I work from home, and she is scared of me.

Stop making excuses, Schlag. Arrange access for your wife or quit your job. She does not want to live with the uncertainty that your job will forever cause her. Have a heart and put an end to that side of her pain.

And as for OWH - stop thinking about your own hide.

Well, you aleady exposed your family to risk. And you exposed this man's family to risk too. Now, he needs to know what you did to him. This is information about his life to which he is entitled. His need to know supercedes your desire to evade the consequences of your crime.

get out of the way of HER healing. no one's going to come after her for what you've done. you probably enjoyed the risk when you were off being naughty. deal with it.

I guess I'm wondering why expose my family to more risk if they're divorced anyway.

It's easy for YOU guys to sit there telling me that I should have thought of it before. It's not so easy when it's the food in my kids' mouths and the house over their head and the health insurance for Amy and my therapy that would be going down the tubes.

I'm working the internet at work issue right now. Every day.

Because this man deserves the truth about his own life. He has a right to know what you did to him. If you were truly remorseful, this would not even be an issue. Show me a person who wants to hide his crime from his victim and I will show you a wayward who is not sincere.

I already told Amy the reason I would tell him is to ask his forgiveness. She can vouch for that. The issue is whether I care about him forgiving me enough to risk my family's financial security.

And lets not pretend like you are suddenly concerned about your family. You are not. You are concerned about YOURSELF. You are using your family as an excuse to avoid facing the consequences of your crime.

You owe the man the truth.

This has nothing to do with his forgiveness. It has to do with doing the right thing. The man deserves the truth. And you owe it to him. This is not about YOU. It is about HIM.

Any more lame excuses?

Sorry, melody, but that's B.S. I could care less if he knows or beats me up. I care about him being angry enough to mess with my security clearance which would mean my family's financial security.

I am willing to face my own consequences.

I am NOT willing to have my family face my consequences, any more than they have to.

Do you know, I will advise Amy not to have anything more to do with you if you continue to raise these specious objections.

a day late and a dollar short.

More excuses. Sorry, that won't work here. You are not concerned about your family's "security" you are concerned about covering your own [censored].

Like I said, show me a wayward who refuses to make amends to his victims and I will show you an UNREPENTANT wayward.

Shame on you.

So just to be clear, you guys think that this man who is now divorced from the other woman deserves to know what happened even though it could mean my family losing our sole livelihood?

Just checking if I'm hearing you right.

maybe you're terrified of losing your job because that's the last bit of leverage you have to keep this thing together. if you can't support your family in the style they're accustomed to, what's left?

all you'll have then is some plan to downsize and move, which your BW has already rejected.

I can see why you're so freaked out.

What am I covering? I have already told all my family and friends?

Don't you DARE use that term about the advice being given to you by people trying to help your poor wife - and YOU, who do not deserve it.

Don't you DARE use that term to people who are hurt for what Amy is going through, who post here to help the marriage. That term is an insult.

I'm the one suggesting we downsize and move. That makes no sense.

I apologize, but attack me for something real not something that's not. i will not take abuse for things that people are saying of me that are not true.

More excuses.

See, the bad thing about this wayward is that he is used to people believing his lies, rationalizations and excuses.

He has an excuse for everything.

Let us know when you get serious, Schlag, because this won't cut it.

read it again.

i'm saying that YOU are desperate to continue the financial support because if you lose that ability you have very little to make yourself attractive to your wife. she doesn't want to downsize and move, so you are scrambling to keep things as is job wise BECAUSE THAT'S ALL YOU HAVE TO OFFER.

and it's not enough.

I'm still wondering what my motivation would be for not telling him, if it's not my job security. You're so sure I'm making excuses then please do tell me what my motivation could possibly be.


Former Wayward.

I'm serious now, melody.

Because you are not man enough to face the consequences. We already know you are not worried about your job security. That is evidenced by your affairs. Your sudden "concern" is not convincing and won't work.

As I told Amy, the fact that you REFUSE to make sure your victim knows what you did to him demonstrates your lack of sincerity. It is like the bank robber babbling like a gurl about how sorry he is when caught red handed, but refusing to return the booty. You are just sorry you got busted, in other words.

CURRENT. Any wayward who is still lying is a WAYWARD. You are WAYWARD.

And like I told you earlier, talk is meaningless coming from a wayward. Only actions speak. Your actions REVEAL a wayward who is not sincere.

Because you are a coward, of course. Why else?

I am not a coward, melody. And I am not lying.

My only motivation here is the one I stated.

If Amy agrees that the risk of losing my security clearance is justified, I will write the letter to him tonight.

I leave the choice up to her because it is her livelihood too.

Isn't it funny how your family's "security" didn't stop you from having affairs but it stops you from manning up and doing the right thing?

You owe the man the truth and if you were sincere you wouldn't be here trying to weasel out of it.

Making that mistake 2 years ago does not justify making it again now.

If Amy is okay with the risk, there is no other reason for me not to write the letter and I will.

way to put all the responsibility of making a tough decision on her. GOOD JOB...not!

like i said earlier GET OUT OF THE WAY OF HER HEALING.

More bullcrap. If you were serious you wouldn't be trying to manipulate your wife so you can weasel out of telling your victim what you did.

Like I said: NOT SINCERE.

You suggest I risk her livelihood without her concurrence? wow!

So it is a "mistake" to tell your victim the truth? What kind of person thinks like that? A very, very wayward mindset. Like I said: NOT SINCERE.

A person who is sincerely sorry would WANT to admit his crime to his victim. You only want to cover your [censored] by scaring your already devastated wife so you can weasel out of it.

What kind of person does that?

You call this CHANGE? Do you think this is how a person of integrity behaves when he has harmed someone behind his back?

Are you interested in truly changing? If so, stop with the weasel excuses and do the right thing. A person who is sincerely interested in changing for the better WANTS to make amends to his victims. He doesn't make excuses and he doesn't try to hide behind his wife's skirts by scaring her.

When will you man up?

from what i've pieced together SHE WANTS TO DO IT but you keep sliding out of it. my short interaction with you has been incredibly frustrating.

YOU DON'T GET IT unless it's all about you.

He is hoping to hide behind her skirts. If he scares her enough maybe she will allow him to do that.

Did you really just say that? wow!

Melody, I am not thinking about "getting out of trouble".

There is no trouble for me in telling OWH about the affair. I can take a tongue lashing or a beatdown if he thought it worth flying out here. I have no pride left to lose about what I did. In fact, it is part of my recovery to ask forgiveness from the people that I have wronged/sinned against.

I would have thought it the worst thing in the world right now to do something that could impact my wife and kids again in the interest of my own recovery.

hello! you risked HER livelihood without her concurrence when you cheated at every opportunity.

you are incredibly arrogant and it must be truly devastating to have a group of people here who are not buying an ounce of your total bull puckey.

I know I did. I am trying to be the guy who doesn't do that anymore, remember?

Weren't you pursuing another affair a couple of months ago? Your BW has said that all of your chatting with these women was online while you were at work. Please stop it with these excuses. You are embarassing yourself.

do the right thing.

I can hear his weasel words now:

"Oh, Amy, I would love to apologize to the OWH but will only do it if you don't mind me losing my job, getting kicked out in the street, having the OM come to the house and beat up you and the children and rip the ears off our little kitty!!! I will only do it if you are ok with all that!!bI know I was never worried about that when I was shagging his wife [who worries when you are getting free nooky!! ] but I am so concerned and do not want to harm you and the children!!!"

[translation: I hope to God I scare the hell out of her so she begs me not to confess. Please oh please let me hide behind your skirts, Amy!!]

I'll write it tonight.

@Melody: I have confessed to my wife, family, friends, pastor, God, and every one else. That's not it. Please stop. I am not unrepentant or wayward.

How convenient!!

She has already said she wants the BH to know:

Using the words "if Amy is okay with the risk" is manipulative...and you KNOW it. Stop it!

Yeah, she should tell. Why would Amy and the kids be at risk? I think it's a man-up situation. If you were bold enough to be with another dudes wife, be bold enough to come clean to him.

Any wayward who continues to LIE to his victim is WAYWARD. You are wayward until this man knows the truth of what you did to him. LYING is not repentance.

Earn it buddy. TALK IS CHEAP!!

I know she already said he should know.

I wanted to make it clear for her that him knowing could effect us, that's all.

No, you wanted to scare her into allowing you to hide behind her skirts.

Schlag, really? Were you thinking of food in your kids mouths when you were at motel 8? Were you thinking of Amy?

Your sin has consequences and this is one of them. You realize that you are probably the reason for their divorce, right?

But then some of us do know. I am not in my vocation because my wife cheated. OM is not in his vocation because he cheated with my wife. My wife quit her job.

Guess what? We found other jobs.

I have no reason to hide from him.

You're right. I didn't think of telling him as important since they are divorced. I see that it is. Thanks.

We all know what you were doing. Responding with more waywardly excuses doesn't help you. Just stop.

Well, if you don't care enough about destroying someone else's life to ask forgiveness or to come clean... How about simply being honest? Is that important?

You are dam# lucky Melody has the patience to stick around and try to help you out of your fog, buddy.

A possible butt whoopin maybe?

Suggestion: instead of wasting all this time and energy trying to weasel out of the consequences of your affair, why not focus that energy on manning up and becoming an honorable, decent man your wife and family don't have to be ashamed of?

You know what would make her proud? Stop trying to scare her and sit down and tell her,

"Amy, from this day forward I will act with integrity, decency and honor. That means making amends to my victims and leaving my weasel ways behind. No longer will I try to manipulate you into protecting me from the consequences.

I am writing this letter to the OW's H and am asking that you deliver it to this man. I am man enough to face the consequences and I am sorry I did this to you, my kids and to the OWH."

Make a decision today to act like a man of honor and decency. That does not include lying to your victims. A man of honor and decency does not do that.

Ummm, regarding this statement of making that "mistake" 2 years ago, is this the same OW that you were caught chatting with 6 months ago??

Schlag - You already have lost it all. There is nothing left. You destroyed it all, and rock bottom is the only way to start the climb back up. Look at it this way.

Divorced
Salary (Gross) = $100,000
Taxes (minimum amount paid because you may get the mortgage tax (but you lose the child tax because she has them full time now) = $20,000
Health Insureance = $5000/year


Child Support = $3000/month for four small children (believe me I know)
Alimony = $1000/month (minimum - probably higher with a good lawyer)

What Schlag has to live off of now in Ventura, CA =

$100,000
-20000
-5000
= 75000/12 = 6250 - 3000 (CS) - 1000= $2250, can I assume your mortgage is about $2000/month.

Hence you now have $250 to live by yourself in Ventura, CA. You will probably have to take on some overtime. You will likely have to sell the home (so you lose the mortgage interest deduction). You will need a big enough home to put your four kids in so your rent could be anything from $2000 - $3000/month.

Have you really looked at your life with four kids after divorce? I know my WH hasn't. Plus my WH got stuck will all medical (Braces are going to cost him $5000 this year and that is just the first kid). He is also stuck with our home and the equity line on it. My WH never imagined the debt he was going to have to assume due to his adultery and leaving us for his OW.

His OW doesn't want him anymore because she doesn't want a gazillion small kids, with a poor man. Nope - his OW was thinking diamonds and Gucci, and all my WH can give her is diapers, snotty noses, screaming kids who hate her, and a one bedroom apartment.

Enjoy the mess you just created. Even if you make more than $100k the ratio of CS/Alimony will only increase. You can expect to give her 50% of your salary before taxes. You will be stuck living off the rest of that salary after taxes.

Tough~

Nice post, Tough.

I have serious doubts this affair is really over and doubt that skanky is really divorced.

I can think of no other reason why Schlag is so ADAMANT about hiding his affair from the OW's husband.

He is FRANTIC. FRANTIC..

Pissing his pants, he is.

Remember about a week ago when I asked you to list out all of your affairs, Schlag, and I repeatedly had to ask you for clarification. One of the things I made it clear that you should list out was the date of last contact with each OW.

You did not mention ANYTHING about recent contact with either of the women from 2009.

My BS detector was going off when you kept leaving information off. And it's going off now.

I hope your BW has you take another polygraph.

Are you posting from home?

If that Effing affair is still going on after she birthed his fourth baby - I am going to go through this computer screen and castrate him myself.

Schlag - are you the lowest of the lowest on the planet? Amy will tell OWHs - she has eight eyeballs that look at her daily for their guidance and strength.

Everything you worked your entire life for is now getting burnt to the ground. I am 100% certain you are going to lose it all, and the house will likely be the first to go.

You and your wife will have nothing left from your old life. The path you take puts both of you in one bedroom apartments working 50+ hours/week. The divorce is going to take you down, her down, and your children down forever. You will have her attorney fees, and your alimony just went up by another $1000 if this adultery is still going on.

Here is what the judge will say to you SIR, "Mr. Schlag - you have been wh0ring around on your wife for most of your marriage, all the while she has been birthing your four kids? Is this true Mr. Schlag? My judgement for you Mr. Schlag Not only am I granting Ms. Schlag 50% of everything you own, 50% of your retirement, she gets sole legal custody of your four babies (you get every other weekend and Tuesday evenings for two hours), $3000/month CS, $2000/month alimony support, and full use of the marital residence. You will pay all medical/dental/vision for those four babies until they are out of college, and you will carry a $1,000,000 life insurance policy for those four babies. OOOOHHHH - By the way you will also pay her $20,000 attorney fees for this divorce. Have a nice day!"

Don't you get it Schlag - that is how you just destroyed it all. There is nothing left. In six months your life will never look like it did before.

You will be poor Mr. Schlag - you will have no money left Mr. Schlag. You are finished. The life you built is now burning up in the fire. Kaput - destoryed in the blink of an eye.

Remember - the Adulterous Woman's lips taste sweet like honey, but in the end she is bitter as gall.

Unfortunately Mr. Schlag you have made your family as sordid as the POSOW. There is no escaping - it is happening as I type this.

The only way to survive is one must be so broken - losing it all is the best option available. Only then will you gain riches beyond your wildest dreams.

I think he's a wuss. Sorry, Schlag, but I do. And I would hate to be married to a little wussy boy. At least my H had the spine to talk to OWH and apologize to him. Do you think he liked that?? Um, NO. I suspect he would have preferred to have a major organ removed. But HE DID IT. And that meant everything to me.

So. Are you a sissy wuss who wants the fun on the front side without the pain on the back side?

Because you don't do something like that on a DoD computer. I understand the need for transparency, but being in DoD myself, you do not install anything on your machine, especially tracking software. If he were to install something that captured/logged data on a DoD system I would notify the special agent in charge at my workplace that a security breach occurred. I don't mean to come across as threatening, but given my line of work I take security deadly serious.

My point was that if he had a security clearance at work, and allowed anyone else access to that computer, he could be in violation and be


ARRESTED.

I could be arrested if I allowed anyone access to my computer or email at work who was not otherwise authorized.

It is a violation of the law, so my advice to "be careful" was a warning regarding perhaps something he needed to consider before he did something illegal by letting his wife into classified files.

(I can't even change my own default printer. I don't have the "privileges"!!! SERIOUSLY.)

I would definitely not advise Schlag to be on the Internet......in fact, Schlag has a huge issue with workplace affairs.

He also has huge issues with internet affairs.

He has to find some type of employment that does not involve computer-based stuff, IMHO, because Schlag finds himself being tempted, and being able, to hop around and hide bad behavior on the internet and on his computer.


He depends on the computer to be his ally in lying to his wife.

Better that Schlag figure out a way to move into a new way of life, and away from Internetting.

Schlag,

You need to write the OW's husband. All of the OW's husbands, for that matter. They all need to know that you have been involved with them.

You also need to start looking into changing jobs. You have established a pattern at your current job which says that you are the kind of man who plays around. You have that reputation - you know, the guy who cheats, who is willing to cheat. By being "that guy", you have that stench on you.

Furthermore, your behavior on the computer and at the office is such that you have no boundaries. Right now, you are set up to continue in exactly the same situation that you were in while you were pursuing your affairs. Nothing has changed.

Your wife will not be able to trust you, and she shouldn't. There is no legal way for you to offer her access to your work computer, or your office. I really do not see any option for you except for you to change your job.

Start looking. Your family depends on you, and your marriage depends on you to be in a situation where your boundaries are a LOT more defensible.

SB

Schlag,

just to jump back to something.....

you list has 7+ affairs or potential affairs- lets just call them affairs- chatting oral sex its all bad. Qualifying the difference makes me sick- chatting sex it�s all the same you betrayed AMY. Own up to it.

why on the show did you only say you had like 4. you could not come clean with them.

buddy its all bad, i mean bad. I had this done to me 3 times.
come clean to Amy with the rest, everything...

Come clean with yourself, the monster of shame that you carry will destroy you and certainly your marriage.

Please email them back and tell them everything. They will get go back to your issue and give you more advice. Tell them you didnt give them the full truth and you need help. They might bring it back up in the radio show again without you on the phone as a follow up.

Schlag, you need to come clean and dedicate yourself to radical honesty. The rest of it doesn't matter until you start being completely open and honest.

Here's what, I believe, Schlag knows that makes this so difficult for him:

His activities, infidelity furthered by resources used to process classified information, almost certainly make him ineligible for the clearance he currently holds.

He is afraid the OWH will create a mess by exposing his sordid activities at a level higher than the small group that has rallied together to conspire with him to conceal them.

If he works for a contractor, he has placed every government contract his company holds in jeopardy.

He is worried about the impact to his family, when in reality, he has placed numerous families in financial jeopardy.

The ripple effects of selfishness, debauchery, dishonesty, and low character just never cease to amaze me.

The OWH cannot do anything to you, Schlag, you've already done it. Hopefully, someone in your company has the integrity to do the right thing.

@ Old war horse: My infidelities were not furthered by resources used to process classified information. We are allowed to use facebook on our unclass work computers. The only way my affair would jeopardize my clearance is when I was covering it up, because that would place me at risk of being blackmailed for secrets.

@ Everybody else:

Amy and I discussed last night how to go about this process and she wanted me to call and make clear to the OW that the NC letter she will be getting any day really was from me. Also, to confer to her the fact that I did not love her but was using her. I also apologized and asked forgiveness for my sin against her and her family. I did this in a very contrite fashion, which Amy was a little uneasy about. It made her think I was still involved with her in some way other than trying to unwind all the lies and be over with it. I made this call in the presence of Amy and I unfortunately didn't understand that she wanted the OW not to know she was present because I told the OW she was present. That was a mistake. So we are going to arrange for another polygraph to make clear to Amy that I am not continuing the affair and do not plan to contact the OW again, ever.

I then called the OWH in the presence of Amy and confessed to him what I did. He confirmed that they are in fact divorced and was shocked at the revelation, but did not seem angry at all. He actually told me all was forgiven.

Please believe me when I say that I am sincere about trying to unwind the lies and deceit of my double life for all these years. As melody said, I am acting, not talking.

I'll let you know how the polygraph comes out.

Also, on the work thing - since they can't uninstall a core program from our machines (i.e.) I have requested approval for a software that can block all sites but specifically approved ones that I use for work. The password to approve sites would lie in the hands of someone Amy designates here at work like my boss. That would leave me without the internet but still able to keep my job.

...oh and despite the fact that you're piling on me because my motivations seem suspect to you, I know this is my doing and I want you all to know that I appreciate your taking the time and caring enough about Amy and me to post in our threads.

How disrespectful to your wife. You apologized to your partner in crime, the skank who assaulted your wife and children? HOW DARE YOU? This woman HELPED YOU assault your wife and you apologized TO HER?

That is some serious wayward fog. And what is even more terrible is that you committed this disgrace in front of your VICTIM. This skank was not the victim. She committed a crime against your wife and your kids!! Your wife and your children ARE HER VICTIMS.

You did not sin against her, you sinned WITH HER. BIG DIFFERENCE. She was your partner in adultery who helped you sin against your wife, her husband and your children.

All I can say is you better pass a polygraph tomorrow with flying colors.... I don't think amy can handle another failure.

You got 1 day to come clean you better make use of it.

My pastor told me that this was a sin against both her and her husband since they (were) one flesh in marriage. Amy wasn't a fan of me asking her forgiveness but understood that going into the phone call. She agreed to that aspect before we called. If she didn't agree I would not have done it. This is POJA as I understand it. If I'm not understanding it correctly, please tell me.

You and me both, LuvsDavid. Nobody wants this question to be settled more than I do.

This was a sin WITH the OW and AGAINST THE OWH. You did not sin AGAINST her, you sinned WITH HER. There is nothing to be forgiven FOR.


Which is a violation of the POJA. You coerced her into agreeing to something disgraceful and disrespectful to her. Agreeing to something you ARE NOT a fan of is NOT the POJA. It is a violation of the POJA.

You can't undo what you did, but you can get your thinking straight and apologize to your wife for disrespecting her by asking her RAPIST for forgiveness. This woman, the OW, committed a crime against your wife and your children WITH YOU.

Schlag - do your four kids play a role in your decision to make the marriage work?

What ultimately brought you to your "Come to Jesus moment" was it your life after divorce or was it because the OW dumped you?

Follow - me here ...

1) Your last PA with this particular HS woman was in September 2009, is that correct?

2) Your last contact with this same HS woman (who you just called last night/and also told her xH) was in July 2011? Is this correct?

How did you keep this HS woman in your brain? What did you do to keep romanticizing about this woman? What was it about this woman that you couldn't let go of?

You stated earlier you did not love this woman (which you failed on the polygraph) correct?

Why all of a sudden does this woman not matter? What has changed?

This woman divorced her husband in 2009, correct? What did this woman do after her divorce? Did this woman divorce her husband because you promised her you were leaving your wife?

What specifically did you tell this woman all these years about the state of your marriage?

Please be specific about your timeline.

Interesting that when you brought up this whole idea of talking to OWH you didn't mention apologizing once, and Amy had to be the one to push the issue of exposing to him but you were compelled to apologize to the OW, your partner in crime, right in front of her victim's face?

Very very foggy.

When was the last time you had contact with this OW before today?

blah blah blah- the excuses, the covers, the lack of honesty with yourself is amazing. work on getting you wife to forgive.

you have less than a day have your final come to jesus moment.

you hit her with a bus 7x (you lied on the radio yesterday) already, i think she is strong enough to hear the truth and make an informed decision about her life and possibly your future together.

sorry, you are really pissing me off, so i will just stick to Amys side at this point. listen to me i was her 5 months ago!

I think your husband might ne able to shed some light to him dee.

Okay I'm confused. The person you spoke to in 2011 is not the same person from 2009 correct? So which 1 did you call?

In regards to sinning against his AP... I have to agree that he sinned with and against her. He stole from her what she should have given to her husband. Likewise, the OW sinned against him. Time affection their body... That said, I agree this is a violation of POJA. It doesn't seem to be ENTHUSIASTIC agreement.

If Amy wasn't ready, if Amy didn't want it, it should not have been done. I think because of the nature of affairs, asking for forgiveness is one option not left open between former AP's and should be avoided at all costs.

CV

But he didn't steal anything FROM HER, he stole from the OWH. The sin was, therefore, committed against her husband. The sin was not committed against each other, but WITH each other, AGAINST God and their spouses. Asking her for "forgiveness" was inappropriate. Not only was there nothing TO forgive, but the purpose of forgiveness is reconcilation. There should be no reconciliation here.

Schlag,

You are betraying not only your wife,

but yourself.


Here is the deal.

You cannot sit here and lie about this conversation with the OW. The first thing you say to her is "my wife is listening".


That is a heads-up to the OW. You gave that to her in order to tell her that everything you were about to say was being monitored, and that furthermore, was being SCRIPTED by your wife.

You essentially told the OW not to listen to a word you said. And that's what message your wife got, too, Schlag.

The entire conversation with OW was fake. Oh, except the one part...

Your apology to the OW. Oh, she read that part loud and clear, Schlag. What the OW understood from that conversation was that you were embarrassed to be calling her, and that you were sorry for embarrassing her, too.

Your wife got the message loud and clear, too.


You did NOT stand up for your marriage, or for your wife, Schlag.

What you did was tell the OW, "My wife is making me call you. She is making me say that I was a bad person and that I can't talk to you anymore. I don't want to do this. I mailed you a letter, and my wife wants to make sure you know the I mailed the letter, because she thinks you will believe she wrote it and sent it. I'm sorry I have to call, and I told you that my marriage was in trouble before. See what I mean? I told you that I have to deal with stuff, and here's some proof. Sorry. Please forgive me. Please feel sorry for me."


Essentially, that's what was said.


I wasn't even there, Schlag, but pretty much, OW is telling her friends that's what happened.

She is saying that your wife is a shrew, and "made you call".


Because THAT IS HOW YOU SET IT UP.



Now, do you see why you are not yet broken? Why we are telling you that YOU ARE FOGGY?


Your first idea is how to "fix" the OW....what you "owe" her.


You owe OW nothing. Not one thing.




Your bottom has not yet fallen out. It will. I would hate to see it happen at the expense of your marriage.


When you face the polygraph - make sure that your memory is as open as possible. Because your marriage absolutely cannot withstand one more lie.

Not one more.

Do not for a second believe that withholding the truth "to protect your wife" is a good strategy.


SB

How did poly go?

Well, I'm devastated and horrified at the polygraph results.

The questions were:

1. Did you tell Michelle that you would leave Amy for her?

(I had her change it from "Did you talk about leaving Amy for her" so that I would be sure to pass it.)

2. Are you being honest about your intentions in telling Michelle that Amy was in the room for the phone call?

(I was sure I would pass this one)

3. Are you witholding information about any sexual or emotional affair from Amy?

4. Are you witholding any information about sexual internet activities from Amy?

I thought that I would pass with flying colors on at least the first two.

I thought I might have a problem with the last two because there's so much I don't remember and I really feared those questions.

But I failed all of them.

So I apparently am lying even to myself.

Amy and I have talked about this for the last hour and a half and the only explanation for what everybody else is seeing is that Michelle meant/means more to me that I will even admit to myself. Enough that I could lie to myself two days ago in that phone call and believe my reason for saying Amy was listening.

I also must be lying to myself about telling Michelle I wanted to leave Amy for her. I know that I never said those words, but I must know underneath that the words I did say, and comments like the Brady Bunch comment, really did say to her that I wanted to leave Amy for her. I am absolutely certain that the conscious thought I had about leaving Amy for her was dismissed because I never really wanted to leave Amy for her.

There are no other sexual contacts besides the list I've posted. (The "experimental" thing I didn't list in public was seeking a homosexual affair that was never followed through on. Amy knows fully about that.)

So The deception all around just has to be me lying to myself about the entire Michelle relationship. I don't want to believe that I loved her. I know that I believe that I don't love her today. But the phone call two days ago says that on some level I was sabotaging what I was trying to say to her.

If I am witholding truth, it is from myself. Which is really scary for me and for Amy right now.

The evidence says that I can't let go of this drug. I am looking at the evidence and I just can't believe it. But there it sits.

Let me get this straight. So you flunked it, not because you were deceptive and are in the long habit of being deceptive, but because you are basically insane and are "withholding the truth" from yourself?

I think Amy should take you at your word on this and accept that you don't KNOW true from false.

Since that is the case, she will NEVER be safe with you. NEVER.

I know what everyone wants to do is crap all over Eric and trust me..... no one wants to do that more than me. I am ENRAGED. However........can anyone please just be helpful and try and figure out how on earth to get the truth out? Or is that just hopeless? He needs real advice right now.... as do I.

You can't really force the truth out. If he doesn't want to give it, you probably won't get it. And if he won't give it...then why do you want to bother?

You should tell him that either he starts telling the truth, or, as Gloveoil's BW said, "...you're out on your @$$"

Amy, your husband doesn't need any advice. He needs to be truthful. He knows what to do but is making a conscious decision to lie and manufacture elaborate excuses to cover his lies. We cannot help someone who does not want to be helped. And he does not want to be helped. If the loss of his marriage and family is not enough to motivate him to be honest, there is nothing we can say to impel him.

We cannot force someone to be truthful against their will. I am sorry, but this is in his hands and unless he makes the choice to do the right thing this is hopeless.

I am so sorry.

Karma- he knows it and I actually just said those exact words a few minutes ago. He swears he has no idea what is in his conscience that is making the lie detector tests go crazy. He thinks there must be something, but he says he doesn't know. It's just very scary how mentally ill he sounds......

Sorry- I'll go back and stay on my thread.

Sounds like he doesn't know the truth... He is even lying to himself.

Amy.... Very strong EP's will need to be in place for a very long time....no scratch that...for as long as you are married!!

GPS on car, key logger on computer and cell phone, ( no cell phone ), only cash in his wallet...no CC, extreme EP's!!! You are not safe from someone who lies to themselves.

Has he seen a psychologist? He seems like he could have split personalities or Bi-polar disease.

He does know the truth, that is why he failed the polygraph. If he didn't know the truth then the test would not have registered deception. His explanation for why he failed is just more dishonesty.

He is not mentally ill, he is lying and spinning again. This has worked for him in the past so he still believes it will continue to work for him now.

The something is deception. Never give a liar the benefit of the doubt. As a former professional liar, I assure you if something doesn't ring true, it is NOT true.

If this were true, he would have PASSED the test. If a person believes their lies, they PASS. It is the knowlege of deception and one's physiological reactions that will cause the test to give a deceptive reading.

nevermind ........ not worth it

ok, here is something outside the box.

hypnosis

let amy ask the questions while you are under. Maybe you will be able to tell the truth then without your guard up.

Have her record the session so you know what you said.

LuvsDavid- Our MFT has her PhD in hypnosis and is VERY educated on the subject. Eric wants more than anything for her to do this so maybe she can dig some truth out that he has either buried or forgotten, or SOMETHING.

What a great escape route!
A wayward's dream!

"I did not lie. I just forgot."

Deja moo (same old bull)

The obvious answer is that he flunked because he is lying. He is a liar. Why is it so hard to believe that someone with a long history of lying is lying?

You don't really believe he flunked because he "forgot," do you? If he forgot it would not have registered the physiological signs of deception. Because he wouldn't KNOW he was being deceptive.

Amy. The truth is right before you right now. He is lying and he is committed to continued lying despite being given numerous chances. An honest man does not go to this much trouble to spin the truth. This is a very practiced, professional liar. He is accustomed to getting away with his lies.

He has not fogotten, I was saying maybe he cant lie while under. For some reason there is something that he thinks you cant handle and it holding out with it.

Like question #1. Does it really matter if he told her he was going to leave you back in 2009? The reality is that he didnt so why would he try to hide the fact that he did say that.

You cannot recover if you dont know what you are recovering from. I know this from personal history. I didnt ask some questions becuase I didnt think I would want to know but almost a year later, I need to know.

The good thing is my husband is not hiding anything. He is answering all my questions without hesitation and I belive him.

He has to want to start to speak the truth. Only then you will get the truth. Amy it is time to figure out what you want for your life. I have a gazillion kids all under nine. I am a single mom to them all. My WH has left for the OW. I get a huge amount of CS form him, and I am very fortunate because it gives us a good life.

I know it is scary to think of life without this man. He cannot keep you safe, and until he will come 100% clean, the adultery will continue.


Tough

He has been deceptive on this thread, deceptive to Dr Harley, called out on it and he didn't respond, apologize, nothing.. Something I personally have been waiting to see if he would do. Would be a step in the right direction.

My undestanding from talking to Dr Harley about someone who has trouble with honesty and a history of a secret second life (can you guess who about?) is that what he would like to see them ADMIT that they have trouble with honesty and acknowledge that it will take work for them to become honest. When they don't do that, you have big problem on your hands as you are seeing now.

I may have missed it, but did he see/read the questions a day before he took the poly?

He needs to sit with you and go over them. You break it down as much as he needs, write out his answers and discuss it.

The ONLY reason he will fail is if he is being deceptive.

If he forgot anything, he won't fail because he won't be lying.

There is something in his head that he is trying to keep from you.

My FWH has poly's for his work. He KNOWS is there is ANYTHING even something small that he has not disclosed, that he will fail. He discussed the questions with me, and disclosed even the smallest thing that might set off a "deceptive" alarm.

Wow.


Amy asks for "real" advice. Okay. I will take a shot at him.

Next post.

questions #3, and #4 should be a "no brainer" If you wrote out a list..... then what's the problem? What are you leaving out? It's that simple

YOU even said "I thought I would pass the first 2 with flyer colors? ok.... so you KNOW you are hiding something on the second two.

I don't understand how you can flunk #1. You either did or you didn't and not remembering is crap.

My WH and his OW talked extensively about how he was leaving me. That isn't something you forget especially when you have a ton of CS, Alimony, and very small kids at home.

Did you Schlag tell your POSOW you are leaving your wife for her?

Is that the reason she divorced her husband?

Did you break up her marriage?

Did your POSOW state you to at anytime during your affair she will be a great mom to your kids and will love them like her own?

Did your POSOW and you talk over the past two years?

How did POSOW react to Baby #4?

Did POSOW need your money?

Is POSOW a gold digger?

These are straight up "yes or no" answers. Tell you wife tonight the answers. Tell her the truth.

Schlag,

You have failed a polygraph because you are a deceiver. YOU LIE.



Even your so-called explanation reeks, Schlag. You are not broken. You are still scrambling for some sort of explanation for "how you could possibly have failed a polygraph".

Duh. You lied, Schlag. That is the explanation. Life is not this complicated.

I wanted to write you a book on "what you want". I wish to give you a condensed version...I don't know where to start!


You want your wife to believe you, because it will be easier FOR YOU.

You want to keep your affair life secrets, because it makes YOU less accountable.

You want to lie to your wife about the fact that you told your most recent OW that you loved her, because YOU don't want to deal with all that entails in your marriage.

You want to lie about the details of homosexual affair, because you think minimizing it will be better FOR YOU. (Personally, I believe this is why you keep failing the polygraph. IMHO)

You want your wife to believe you are committed to the marriage, but when you contacted the OW, the wife went under the bus so you could make YOURSELF look good and protect the OW.

Your pattern of lying to your wife (and others) is a way of life for you. You believe that you have a right to hide what you do not want others to know, and to do whatever you want to do. The belief system you have is that you "deserve" whatever you want - and when you go looking for a sexual encounter with someone else, you justify it by somehow blaming your wife for her "shortcomings" (you may say that she doesn't meet your sexual needs, she doesn't have SF with you often enough, or in the ways that please you, you two don't connect anymore, she doesn't understand you or your needs, etc., or that you two have become distant over the years, yadda-yadda....and you have decided that these "reasons" make you entitled to your affairs - even though they are LIES).



The fact is, that you have decided that you want what you want when you want it; that you will lie to get it; you will lie to protect your secrets so you will not be judged or receive any consequences for what you have done.


When - if ever - you decide to completely and truthfully confess all the details to your wife, you will be able to move forward toward a recovery.


Until then, you will be guaranteed to have your feet nailed to the floor exactly where you stand right now.

I will tell you that your choice right now is one of nails.


It is of course, your own choice. Do not complain about the blood on the floor, or of the tight shoes.




You could choose to change your pattern. It is your own fear of consequences that is keeping you nailed where you are. Then again, if you continue to choose to lie, you will remain where you are anyway, and will watch Amy walk away. You will then get to have what you seem to want, which is your freedom to sleep around. Or, is it really what you want? Choose carefully.


Schoolbus

Shlag,

I just remembered something from my DDay's..... Mabye my husband has had A's with so many OW that he can't even remember how many!

Is that the case? questions 4&5?

If so, tell Amy. Your coming clean is the ONLY hope you have left. Doing this "lying game" is getting you no-where!

He is hiding something about the cop OW. That is why he flipped out about calling her husband. And that is why he flunked the polygraph. He would have nothing to lose if the affair was long gone. But apparently that is not the case since he is trying to hard to hide the affair.

Amy,

Eric is going to have to take a long hard look at himself. I don't believe it is hopeless. My last post was an attempt to help him begin being honest with himself. My advice to you is to continue to be honest, hold him accountable. He will either tell the truth or not. We cannot force him, all we can do is give him guidance. the real work will lay with him to either start really looking at what he's saying and why or just continue like he's been.

One more post to you... I am not a big advocate of the "mental illness card". I think that some people are, but for most people it is just good ole fashioned sin. As we know, sin begets sin. It is a spiraling pattern. lying begets more lying. So much so that one who entrenches himself in it, cannot often tell what the truth is. This is why I suggested he quit explaining to everyone and start doing. Simply put, he needs to stop sinning. In MB terms, he needs to stop lying and adopt a policy of radical openness and honesty.

CV

Schlag...

You are now in the league of my xwh. He was a liar who lied so much he couldn't tell the truth from a lie and his own behaviors were so so convincing that nobody knew when it was a lie or the truth.

He was also very emotionally abusive as professional liars like yourself, are gaslighters to their spouses. Horrible gaslighters.

You have emotionally abused your w many times. And you're stuffed your lies down so far so that you don't have to deal with them. But now Schlag, the chickens have come home to roost.

You have a choice now. And it is one that could save your life.

Do you spiral downward further and become like my xwh? A man who was a ceo who gave his life away for nothing?

or will you enter intensive treatment to attempt to learn how to live as an honest and decent man, and receive treatment from your near-pathologic lying?

It is almost pathologic what you wrote. But like my xwh, he used his lying as a tool to get what he wanted. He wasn't mentally ill in that regard. He knew exactly when he was lying, but became so good at it, he could literally convince himself it was true...for a moment or two.

I say you're almost pathologic, because you can 100 percent control yourself. You simply choose not to.

schlag,

Are you reading?

Yes, I am reading. Amy read me the latest posts last night as we talked, and I just caught up right now reading it myself.

I am busy with other facets of the crisis:

-figuring out a solution to time lapse video tape myself all night when the kids are asleep for Amy's 8 day trip to her mom's
-Going to the doc to get a prescription for zoloft
-Talking all hours to Amy (last night till 3 am like most nights)
-Working on EP's
-Working on work
-parenting
-Doing the cooking, cleaning, laundry, shopping, et cetera that Amy isn't able to do right now because of the pain (and the needy baby)
-Reading my book about male covert depression and doing my own self-inspection
-Doing the assignments from our counselor for my individual sessions
-Talking to a few male friends to keep me grounded, accountable, and sane

...so it's hard to come reply to these, especially when half the posts are assuming things like the affair is still going on. I appreciate everyone's time and advice, and try to get something out of every post even if it is assuming things that aren't true.

...and the failed poly even had me questioning my own sanity much of saturday.

So, as it stands now Amy is filing for dissolution which is no different than before the poly. I never expected her to hang on to this marriage whether she believes she has the whole truth or not. I need to get myself healthy and fix the things that caused me to trample and push her away all of these years, and then hope she recognizes the new man that I am.

I also plan to re-take another poly in the near future in order to try and give her some peace about what she knows.

But regardless of whether she ever believes she knows everything about the past, I need to concentrate on showing her now that I am here, I am serving her and our family, and that I only want her for the rest of my life. There is undeniable truth in actions.

Celtic Voyager said it best:
I think Amy would tell you that I have demonstrated radical honesty to her by things I have pulled from my memory. In a few instances, more radical that she maybe would have liked. I'm learning how to communicate these things better to her. The problem that I have is that my explicit memory is TERRIBLE. She also has already vouched for this.

I am a little hopeful that maybe hypnosis and/or the Zoloft will help me pull more of my memory out for her and give her (and myself) a real indication of what this relationship with Michelle really was. Because it seems to be the thing that really matters to her the most.

She wonders why I failed the questions about other sexual contact besides her and Michelle and the escort. Thinks maybe there are shameful things unrelated to Michelle that I am holding back consciously for one reason or another. There are not. When she told me I had one last chance to tell her everything or I was out, I believed her 100%. She has never lied to me. She has total credibility. She gave me a deadline of 5 pm saturday, and it passed because there is nothing that I am consciously holding back. Nothing would be so shameful that I would hold it back when losing her and my family is on the line. Think of what I've told her about my past, and add on a few *horribly* shameful things from before we were married and in my childhood that I have told her. I had an affair with the WORST person in the world that I could have possibly picked. It just doesn't get any worse than what I've already admitted to her. If I had actually met with the man or had 20 affairs over the years, it would not be worth holding back when my one shot at keeping my family is at stake.

I'll try to answer some of the specific questions that have been posted to me when I can.

Eric (and Amy),

I gotta get ready for Bible study, but I want to post just a short thing to you and I'll sign back in later tonight...

My wife had 2 affairs over 7 years or so. One for 2.5 months, and one for almost 10 months, well on her way to being a serial cheater when I caught her. She was a habitual liar. She lied about the stupidest, smallest things. We are three years into recovery.

You guys can do this. Eric, you can lick this problem. It won't be easy. You will need a keen eye to be on you constantly and to call you out. But you can do it. Marriage recovery **IS** possible if you both work at it and you kick the lying. It is not hopeless.

Just wanted to let you know in the midst of all the bad stuff flying around, there may be some hope here for you both if you both work like the dickens.

CV

CV, I greatly appreciate that, but Amy's just not there right now nor she should be considering the poly result on saturday.

But you're right about me - I will lick this problem.

I just hope and pray that she will see it in me before she moves on and falls in love with somebody else.

Amy wonders this as well. I have told her every woman who I've had any physical or emotional affair with. Any chats and strip clubs that I can remember. Even a chat where I only talked ABOUT sex with a woman.

I know that other affairs would hurt her, but no affair could hurt her more than one with Michelle.

And while the gay seeking would be embarrasing to me if it had gone further, that is also not something that would be worth me giving up any shot I have at keeping my marriage.

It is too profane to put in the abbreviations thread.

It means "Piece Of Excrement Other Woman" - but another word for "excrement".

Ok, which is the whole truth?
a. I should have unfriended her in 2009
b. I should not have added her to my fake facebook account that I just set up this year?


See the difference?

How many times did you think of this woman between 09/2009 and yesterday? How many times did you fantisize about a life with the POSOW while your life in your home was depressing?

When you were at home, and the kids were crying, poop needed to be changed, Amy was exhausted--barking orders here and there, the bills needed to be paid, Amy's stretch marks were looking bad, her sagging breasts weren't the same ... how many times did you fantisize about having a life with the OW, a prostitute, or porn that would remove you from those moments?

Do you see your pattern yet? Do you see what is leading you to your poor boundaries around women? Do you see how your thoughts, actions, daily life make you vulnerable?

Can you see the self deception yet?

Pattern ...

Admiration is a very HIGH need for me ... Amy is unable to fulfill

I need to be admired all the time ... I don't care where I get teh admiration ... I just need to be admired ...

Your Admiration comes from External fixes ... Strip Clubs, Porn, Prostitutes, HS Girlfriend ... but not Amy

You know what is admirable?

A man, father of four, raising his family honorably, with integrity, and with character.

If you want admiration ... then do something admirable. Hot women admiring you isn't one of them.

Your wife will admire your pants off if you give her O&H. Otherwise she has nothing to admire. Your external source for admiration will continuously be drawn from Porn, Prostitutes, and Adultery.

AH! Tough- YES!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you...yes yes yes. Perfect.

ITA. Also consider this. there are two answers you can give to the question when someone asks you something (aside from outright lying, that is) .. The real answer and the right answer.

The real answer is the truth. The right answer may or may not be the truth.

Question example: CV, does God love you?

Right answer: Yes, because the Bible tells me He does.

Real answer? I don't think God loves me because of the life I've lived. I've been through so much that I can never really believe in a loving God.

Technically, answer 1 may be true. But I'd flunk it on a lie detector if the real answer was that I really thought it might be propositionally true, but not practically true.

I think what you might be doing is this sort of thinking. It is a form of equivocating. Of course the right answer is "I never wanted to leave Amy", but the real answer is "I wanted to be closer to OW". Defacto, you wanted OW more. That is the real answer. You didn't want to just stay and live your life with Amy and be happy with the wife of your youth. You wanted someone else's.


make sense?

CV

They're both true. But obviously creating a second facebook to message privately is way worse. That is a bigger boundary to be stepping over.

Amen! THIS is the life I want to lead!!!

Yes, I think that you're exactly right. I've lived a life of giving the "right answer" to protect Amy from my flaws or because I was a coward to admit things. I'm still having a problem doing it. Amy and I kind of got to this issue last night in therapy and in our own late night discussion, actually. My biggest problem is giving a "less hurtful version of the truth" which I always told myself was the truth, but it really isn't.

I'm getting there, guys. Thank you for posting.

Don't know the submission process, but I believe this is a Notable Quote.

I just don't think it can be pared down more succinctly than this.

I have a thought or two.... I don't want to hurt or stir anyone unnecessarily, but I want you to be prepared for this...

People will stick with you if they see effort and progress here. It won't be easy for you, but they will. You got a tough tough road ahead Eric. I know. My wife did too. The repercussions last forever and you will always mourn what you lost (or threw away).

BUT, that doesn't have to mean it's the end. Amy may leave you. You may get divorced and never remarried, and a hard as that sounds, it is not the end of the world. What would be the end of the world for you would be to give up the hard hard work of being honest.

The divorce in many ways will make it harder for you to prove yourself to her because you won't be in close contact like you are now. You will have to find creative ways to show her your honesty.

You will have to make your biggest strides in this now while you have the chance to do it before her. Post here for advice. Some may check out on you. It's ok if you are sincerely working, it won't matter in the end (though you will lose some valuable insight). What is important is you fixing you whether or not your marriage works.

My suggestion... THINK before you answer. Take a second and ask yourself a few questions before you answer.

For example...

"did you ever talk about having kids together?"

"No! Well, maybe... she mentioned it once or twice" "No, I never wanted to have kids with her"...

These types of responses are dishonest ones.. they are equivocating the truth. Trying to make it "better" somehow.

The real answer is "yes. We talked about it a few times..."

Then you ask "may I explain this?"

and say "We talked about it, but it was never something I wanted to do", or "I considered it and after thinking on it rejected the idea", or whatever the right answer is. But that initial blurt out KILLS credibility.

Heh, we had that conversation with the therapist and between us as well. It's good advice. And it's essential for me to not do more damage than I've already done.

Unfortunately, sometimes it means no answer for Amy because if the memory isn't there I have to avoid doing what I've been doing - taking vague and incomplete memories from over 2 years ago and deciding now what they meant after the fact. Because that gets clouded by what I WANT to believe now and isn't necessarily the same thing as what I felt at the time.

Good for getting un-clouded now and into the future, but bad for Amy to figure out what exactly she's healing from.

Schlag,

The truth simply "is".

There is not a "better truth", or "an easier truth", or "a truth that makes someone feel better".

The truth stands as an entity unto itself.


What Amy asks for is for you to tell her the truth, as you best recall it. She wants you to tell her lovingly, openly, honestly.

There need not be a brutality about it.

There does not need to be a clouded veil to it either.



A clarity, an honesty, an openness to the delivery is best. What happens then is that the betrayed spouse can hear what happened, and know the truth of the marriage, and make informed decisions about their life.


And just so you know, it isn't unusual for a person to remember some things about events, and once you begin talking about things for more details to be recalled. As you begin to confess the events, the very nature of talking about them may jar your memory as to this thing or the other thing - and as those come to you, it will be important for you to go to Amy and tell her that you have remembered more.

Don't lie or cover them up, or wait for her to ask about them. Tell her simply that you have remembered more. Tell her what has come to mind, and what brought it to your mind. It is HELPFUL when the wayward spouse is open in this way - because it hurts to have to constantly ask, beg, plead for information. So as much as you are able to offer her, and in whatever way she has asked you to, offer the information.


SB

Lets put this in another way;

Amy's biggest problem is getting a "less hurtful version of the truth" which she was always told was the truth, but it really wasn't.




Now let me ask you.....

If it was a less hurtful version of the truth.....

What do we call that? What do you call that??

Ahhhh... SB said exactly what I've been trying to say over several posts in one neat post. Thanks SB. This is exactly what I was getting at... Or trying too.

Yet again, I'm going to have to demur with the conventional wisdom here.

"Fact" is incontrovertible. "Truth" is subject to nuance and bias. As Schlag is discovering to his mortification, his "truth", even in his own inner mind, might not perfectly align with "fact".

Let me give you an example.

Situation 1
A man died, leaving an insurance settlement to his financially-unsophisticated widow. The oldest son, ambitious and MBA-equipped, approached her, to borrow a large portion of that, paying her significantly more than other options open to her, for an investment that would also ultimately benefit her beloved grandchildren, by funding their education.

Situation 2
A man died, leaving an insurance settlement to his financially-unsophisticated widow. The oldest son, struggling to support a rapidly growing family, approached her, to borrow a large portion of that, paying her significantly less than commercial mortgage rates, to purchase a rental property in which he was placing no equity at the start, thus beginning a real estate business that eventually grew into the high six-figures of net worth.

Yup, it's the same story, told in the first instance to make NG seem like a hero, and in the second to cast him as a villain. Both stories are verifiable as the "Truth".

The wording of a question on a poly exam would be key in convincing an observer which NG - hero or villain - was involved.

(As for NG's opinion.....Do you have a need to know?)

Thanks, I agree and I think Amy would tell you that things have looked more like this lately. She dreads it when I come up to her with something, but she listens and even though she reacts with honesty about how angry or repulsed she is with the latest news, she is rewarding me by being understanding and by appreciating that I'm being radically honest.

(And it is rewarding/healing to me personally to be living this way versus the way I was in the past.)

I think that the best we can do is remember/communicate the facts as clearly as possible, and be totally honest about our feelings with ourselves and with our spouse. Because in that honesty lies the key to intimacy and healing, with ourselves and each other.

Thank you all for posting.

I wanted to put these two things next to each other:



Schlag, itistoughlove is right. If you want admiration, you have to live admirably. It really is that simple.

I doubt you really achieved anything great in high school. Think about it. Good grades, maybe, but they are really just numbers on paper. Did you cure cancer? Run a profitable company? Save someone who needed defending? Raise a family? I doubt you did any of these things in high school. Did you run a ball down a field and give your virginity away for a relationship that didn't last? Playing kids' games isn't really as admirable as a lot of people think it is.

You have a chance to become admirable. It will come through serving others: your family.

But you are going to have to quit dealing out lies and half truths. I consider your explanation of why you failed the polygraph to be complete crap. Quit claiming there are mysteries inside of you to solve. Start behaving admirably.

I would start by calling Dr. Harley again and telling the truth.

you really blew it up, schlag. wow.

all those casual thoughts about wanting to shake off the wife and family have now come to fruition. hardcore!!

maybe you'll win your way out of this situation, maybe not but i give you props for checking in.

Bingo. I have grown weary of the ever evolving excuses of why he flunked the polygraph. Bullcrap is bullcrap. Why manufacture elaborate rationalizations when the answer is right in front of us all? He lied. Why is it so hard to accept that a liar with a history of lying lied on the polygraph?

He lied. He flunked the polygraph. NEXT. All of this hair splitting and other nonsense is a distraction.

Yes, but ......

You know, I truly WANT schlag to come clean. I want more than anything for Amy to be able to recover her marriage. But that will never happen if we help Schlag manufacture elaborate excuses about why he flunked the polygraph. The benefit of the doubt is not warranted or appropriate here.

We know why he flunked: HE LIED.

All the rest of this is a distraction from resolving the problem.

You cant drape a veil over the uglier truths, wrap em up in a tiffany bow and still pass a poly. You just cant.

You cant hopscotch past the anger and disgust of your wife - you have earned those reactions. Take them on the chin and be a man.

I have been lied to up and down by my husband. I would love to hear something ugly from him. I would love to hear hims describe himself accurately for once. The uglier it makes him seem, the truer I will feel it to be and then I may feel that honesty has arived at last.

Dont skim, skip or mislead with the truth. The truth should be a shining sweeping light, that burns off all the cobwebs and mould, dont leave anything hiding in the corners. Check out my sig.

If you ARE doing this, you will pass the poly.

What do you all think he is lying about so we can concentrate on trying to bring the truth out? The OW affair?? More affairs? Details about the affairs?

I have no idea. Only he knows.

please buy Lovebusters because it explains the four type of liars. Right now he is a self deceptive liar, a protective liar, a get out of trouble liar.
His affair has way more detail also. He needs to come clean.

You ask "why" we believe Schlag is lying.


Here is why:

Schlag presents excuses for his failure of the polygraph which are consistent with the pattern of typical wayward's justifications of avoidance of revealing the entire truth of details of affairs.

We have seen this pattern of avoidance to disclose time and time and time and time again.


For me, this pattern of avoidance is so common it is like seeing walls that are painted. Paint is on the wall. It is not a surprise. In fact, what would be a surprise would be if someone were to say, "LOOK! The paint FELL OFF THE WALL!" Now THAT would garner my attention.


Let's talk about lying behavior, just generically for a moment. Not even "affairs" at all, just lies.

When a person has some behavior which he desires not to be exposed to others, he utilizes a series of lies to cover up that behavior.

Along with the lies he also uses a certain pattern of behavior(s) which allows for the secret to remain hidden. For example, he may frequent a certain business first, then exit that business via a certain door, walk to another business, use the computer there, then exit a certain way, go eat at another place, then return to his office every day for lunch - all performed in order to cover up the use of the computer at a coffee shop for five minutes during his lunch hour.

Certain behaviors such as clothing purchases might lend to cover secrets, or perhaps choosing a van instead of a sedan, for example.

Lies are one aspect of the "crime" or secret he is trying to keep. They are a part of the cover-up, certainly. In reality, the lie is the surface evidence that may indicate to another person who gets the "sense" they are being lied to - which may be the first indicator something isn't quite right. It is the BEHAVIOR that is covered by the lie that is usually the real issue when it comes right down to it (although there are cases where a person just lies, about lots of stuff and doesn't "do" anything but lie).


So, the lying is an issue for Schlag, because in the case of an affair there has been plenty of BEHAVIOR which has been covered up. The affair behavior took place over a period of time. In this case, we are discussing MANY events over several years' time.

The lying regarding the affair behavior also took place over a period of time - years.

So, what we have is YEARS of BEHAVIOR in which Schlag has behaved in a manner PLANNED AND CARRIED OUT TO DECEIVE HIS SPOUSE. There has been a well-executed plan, over the course of YEARS, and a routine that is well-established that provides for the secrecy to carry on these affairs.

Furthermore: Schlag's posts here exhibit CURRENT and ONGOING tendencies to diminish the extent of his affairs. Read his first posts here on this thread - he did not clearly state how many affairs he had, and did attempt to downplay the facts of some of his affairs. It took several posters and quite a few interchanges before we were able to hammer down exactly how many OW and affairs we were talking about.

This speaks to his reluctance to OPENLY AND HONESTLY "put the truth out there".

Again:

The truth exists, as an entity.

You CANNOT color it with any "view". You may know this part or that part; it does NOT change what the truth IS - because the truth remains what it is.


The truth is not subject to one person's desire to "make it look" one way or another.

You either had seven affairs, or you had six.

You either called an OW in September, or you didn't.


The betrayed spouse deserves to know the truth, and to hear it.


I hope this helps to understand why we believe that Schlag is still withholding the truth. It is because much of what he says remains in the realm of the "foggy" wayward spouse - and we want so much to help him get over the bridge so your marriage has a chance.


There is no chance until the details of what happened are known.


And Schlag needs to know that he cannot possibly leave this behind him unless he LEAVES ALL OF IT BEHIND HIM.

You cannot possibly drag this anchor with you, Schlag, if you expect to sail this ship into the future. You don't have to tell us the details. You do have to tell your wife.

And you have to trust that she can handle everything.

Update for everybody...

I did an extensive psychological evaluation last week with a specialist at UCLA. He had me do about 3 hours of psychological testing online and then met with me in person for a couple of hours and got my history and did a few other specialized tests that came up from what he saw in the online tests. He diagnosed me (again) with adult ADD and called me sub-threshold hypersexual. So hypersexual behaviors but not enough to diagnose with a disorder.

The ADD diagnosis was no surprise... I was diagnosed about 6 months ago with it. But having dived into the reading on it the last week, I can see that most of our marital problems have come from my ADD. The temper, the not being satisfied with my life as it was, the blaming others for my own miscommunications, the lack of self-awareness, reduced ability to self-regulate, and seeking of stimulation.

I can also see why my memory is so bad. It's Ironic that everyone here says I'm "foggy" - that's exactly how spouses in the book describe their ADD partners over and over again.

So the plan going forward is to continue with therapy, start back on trying out ADD medications, continue on zoloft for now, and get healthy spiritually and physically.

FYI Amy went home for a week to her mom's with our two youngest. I'm enjoying time with our two oldest. I'm using a plotwatcher time lapse video camera to record myself from when the kids go to bed to when I leave for work so Amy can see that I'm behaving myself.

Seriously.... glad you found out you had affairs because of a medical problem...

Bet that makes it all better.

I always wonder
which came first
the chicken or the egg.

Are you scattered and foggy from ADD
or
do you have ADD from having to keep secrets, trying to live seperate secret lives and keep them straight, thus scattering your thoughts?

Luvs,

I'm not blaming my actions on the ADD... it's part of the reason for issues we've had, not an excuse for my behavior. I had choices and made the wrong choices. But understanding myself and getting healthy will demonstrate to Amy that I'm serious about being the man I always should have been for her.

Reading,

You don't get ADD from being busy or distracted. ADD is a physiological brain dysfunction from birth. It's real and it's not a joke.

So...Does EVERYONE with ADD behave in the manner in which you did?