I don't know what to say.

I feel physically ill, shocked, and in complete and utter despair. I can't function and I feel myself falling into a deep and total depression. I just have zero idea how he could have done this to me. I have NEVER EVER ONCE lied to him in our entire 15yr relationship and 12yr marriage. He doesn't deserve me at all.

You can read on his crisis thread what has happened in our marriage. I still love him, but I feel like I don't know who he is whatsoever and I want out.

The thing is, you can decide whether or not this marriage is worth your effort to try and save it from divorce.
The cool thing is, you don't have to decide today.
You can wait until the initial shock has worn off, and you feel stronger and are thinking clearly.

Are you sleeping?
Eating?
Can you function on a day to day basis?

If not, you may need some medical attention to treat anxiety/depression/insomnia.

Speak to your physician.

Your children need you put together, do not hesitate to see your doctor for anti-depressants for the time being.

Like I said on your H's thread, NOBODY here would fault you for walking away. I don't think anyone here actually believes your husband now, so we certainly don't question why you don't.

He did this to you because he has poor boundaries. That is resolvable, but it will take a huge change of life. I'll leave you to the SAA vets now...hugs to you.

[video:youtube][/video]

Infidelity: What every couple should know.


What every MB forum poster should watch.

Amy, I hope you read every post on your husband's thread so you can see our reaction to his posts.

Amy, Welcome. You are in good and understanding hands here. Read through the site, when you have a chance. Order the book Surviving and Affair. Post here whenever you need to, we all can offer you help.

As Pepperband has posted, you don't need to make any lifechanging decisions today. We can help support you through this most difficult time. Again, WELCOME

Amy,

I have been exactly where you are standing. I have worn your very shoes.

My husband is a serial cheater.

We have been married since 1975. He has had at least 3 physical affairs, and two emotional affairs.

I understand the roller coaster you are on.

I understand that you still love him.

I understand that you may still want to save your marriage, and that you may just want to walk away the very next moment.

That one minute you wish you didn't have to look at him, and the next you want to have him hold you, fight for the marriage, and be the rock you need to lean on and support you through this he// you find yourself in.


You cannot understand what has happened. You cannot believe he has done this to you, and you cannot believe you didn't know it. You are looking back at the years together, wondering what was true, what was a lie, if anything was "real" or not. Did he ever love you, was anything built on truth, was any of it meaningful, or was everything a sham?

Here are some things to know - some truths to cling to:

The affairs he had are not, and never were, about you. His affairs were about HIM.

His affairs were NOT your fault. His affairs were 100% his choice, and you are not to blame.

The affairs he had were NOT about the other women. There is nothing special about any of the other women; they could be anyone, they are not unique, special, or anything unusual. The affairs are NOT about the OW; they are about YOUR HUSBAND.

You do not need to decide anything right now. You can take your time. In fact, making a decision right now is probably the worst timing to do anything, because you are in shock - and you need time to make a decision that carries with it all of the information you need, and the time to consider it carefully. That means you need to be a lot more emotionally calm - and you can't say that time is right now.


Finally, you have come to the best place to get advice and support. Lots of us have been in your shoes. We can help you through this. Whether you decide to stay in the marriage or not, Marriage Builders can help you through.

For what it is worth, you CAN save your marriage. MB can help. If your husband is willing to work on the plans, and you are able to see the changes in him - and ultimately work on the plans with him, your marriage can survive. It can actually end up as the marriage you have always wanted.

Schoolbus

Amy,
You are in a severe emotional storm....I know what that's doing to you....too many people here on this forum know it also...we have been in your shoes, walked the same path.
YOUR recovery happens one moment at a time.....one hour at a time.....then one day at a time.
I don't have much clear memory of the two weeks after my Wife dropped the bomb of infidelity on me.....it still seems like a bad dream. I am almost at 4 months after that day....and I still need medication to help me sleep.
If I can give you one recommendation it would be TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF FIRST !!!
You will get excellent support here.....USE IT.
We are here for YOU!
You are a new member in a club that NOBODY wants to join. We are here for you!

Amy, lots of us have been in your shoes. The first week I found out I slept 12 hours total, every time I went to work I threw up. I probably drove about 2000 miles, in circles. Everything was wrong,upside down nothing but pain and confusion. The emotions controlled me. My buddy the MD helped me immensely, I wouldn't be here without the ambien and the antidepressants, and I hate taking pills..... if I have any advice read peps. Notable posts in her signature line... and listen to every darn word that melodylane writes, she is the closest thing to psychic I have ever seen...... and I really don't believe in that crap...... They will help you in your path to recovery, whatever path that may be.... REMEMBER take care of yourself. Eat, sleep just take care of yourself

Thanks everyone. It's (unfortunately for everyone affected) nice to know I'm not alone. I'm trying to eat as I'm still breastfeeding our almost 7m old baby, but I've lost 8lbs in the past 10 days. I have very restless sleep as well and am hoping that gets better since I'm getting up at night with the baby too.

I just can't see AT. ALL. how people can trust again and can actually ever have sex again after something like this.

The visions I have in my head are horrendous. I just can't shake them. I just can't wrap my head around how he could do all of these things to me when he supposedly loved me so much. I feel like everything in our entire marriage has been a lie. I actually feel like I've been raped and robbed. Literally.

Amy YOU ARE NOT ALONE!!!
Many of us here know EXACTLY what you're going through!
I'm 30 pounds lighter than 4 months ago.
Since you breastfeed your child maybe medication to sleep or manage the anxiety isn't the best idea......PLEASE consult your Doctor....those medications helped save my life!
YOU ARE NOT ALONE!!

Hi Amy, Welcome to MB. I am so sorry you are here. I suffered from my wife having two affairs over 8 years of our marriage. It is devastating, and yet the words don't due justice to the feelings. You are certainly within your rights to divorce. It is 100% your prerogative and no one would blame you. You are also right that he doesn't deserve you. I struggled with this also. It brings up the uncomfortable question of grace. What I mean is undeserved favor. I decided to give my wife grace. After 18 years of marriage I said that I would give it a shot after 2 affairs. Now we are working towards an unbelievable marriage. It's possible to have one. It's not easy, but possible. Whichever way you choose, I hope you will stay here, because MB has principles and concepts that can help you either way.


CV

This is all (unfortunately) perfectly normal. I lost over 20lbs in 3 weeks. The trust grows as he demonstrates repeatedly that he has extra ordinary precautions in place, that he is open and honest about his life... 100% transparent, and you begin the hard work towards reconciliation. Sex was hard for many of us after finding out our spouses were unfaithful. The movie reel of what we think happened played constantly. The reel runs out of film eventually and the movies stop as you begin working and rebuilding.

Amy, the feeling of being raped and robbed is actually consistent with what Dr. Harley says. He says that the pain and emotional trauma of infidelity is equivalent to rape.

Your world has been shattered.

I don't know where your H stands on things since I haven't read his thread. My guess is that if he's here he is looking to recover.

The good news is that you can recover. The bad news is that it will be the toughest thing you've ever done.

One the other end of this could lie either divorce and years filled with child exchanges or a recovered marriage with an intact family and a wonderful marriage, if you're both willing to make changes (mainly him).

I'm sorry you're going through this. The infidelity diet is one most of us are very familiar with.

Welcome, Amy! Here's the good thing: YOU get to decide what you want to do. Take some time to get used to your new reality. It involves some nasty honesty (hopefully the honesty will remain, with no 'nasty' in the future.)

Please stay off your husband's thread, okay? We're working with the two of you separately right now, and it won't help if you're following his thread and getting caught up in it. You've got your own thread for now.

Stay with us and learn how to make a fantastic marriage with Schlag. You may not feel that's possible right now - believe me, it is!

UNFORTUNATELY!!!!!

People tell me "You've lost weight...you look good....did you use a diet program?"

I tell them "I went on a diet you NEVER want to be on!"

And, you need to take excellent care of yourself.


You actually don't have to think about this now.
You really ought to concentrate on your own physical & mental wellbeing.


We understand. We remember.
You will simply have to take our word that these horrible visions will fade over time. It takes TIME.


Did you watch that 30 minute video I posted?
You can watch it while breastfeeding.

Take care you.

Pepperband- not yet, but I will.

Thanks again, everyone.

Hugs, Amalynn

((((((((((amalynn))))))))))

You will do great. MB plans will help you with either marriage recovery or personal recovery - whichever you decide.

This is the most awful and shocking betrayal to experience - we have all been there and felt the bottom fall out of our world.

I have only been here since June (so I will leave you to the vets' wise experience) Just months ago I discovered my h was having an affair with my oldest friend, who we had been helping through her widowhood. You wouldnt think so, but thanks to MB I sleep, eat and laugh as I never thought I could on Dday. I am happy most of the time.

You will be too, when you come through the eye of the storm

We also understand that it is hard to make permanent decisions when you are up one day and down the next.

MB can avise you on what to do in the meantime, if you are not ready for permanent decisions.....

Amy I breastfed my youngest baby while enduring my WH adultery and leaving me for her.

I also went on to lose 55 pounds all while breastfeeding. What I noticed is breastfeeding helped me to remain calmer than I normally thought.

I believe the chemicals released during nursing helps the mom. Also - my fat was used to keep the breastmilk afloat.

I did not get ADs either because I wanted to continue nursing, and made it to one full year (Adultery started when he was only four months old).

Increase the frequency if you need more supply. I also pumped lots of milk so my girlfriend could help me out. There were days I couldn't get out of bed. It was awful.

I am also brought my youngest into bed and noticed he nursed a lot more at night than during the day, which helped me sleep better at night, and I wasn't so worried about him during the day not drinking so much.


Tough~

*** LINK *** to MB acronyms and abbreviations. (so you don't waste time trying to figure it out on your own)

You ok today amy?

I don't even know what to say, guys. I'm just in total despair at all times. I have no idea what to do with myself...I've never felt such horrific pain in my entire life. It's killing me slowly.

Can you gather family and friends around? Is there a way Schlag can afford a nanny/AuPair for help?

I remember these days so well. There is nothing at this moment that will aide the pain - you have to work through it with time only.

I strongly encourage you to surround yourself around family and friends. Let them help you. They can help you hold the baby while nursing if you need.

Cry and let it out - yell in the basement if you need. Whatever you can find to make your comfort level better. Hire a housekeeper if you need housework complete.

{{{Amy}}}

Who do you have that is close to you emotionally and is close by in order to help you through this?......family?.....friends?
Those who Love you will HELP you....lean on them.....lean on Us!!!
I'm a Rookie.....just 4 months past D-Day.....there are people here with MUCH BETTER advice and experience then me.
PLEASE post here on a daily basis....let us help you......let the Marriage Builder Veterans steer you through this.
Yes it hurts.....we know....you can find help here.
BIG HUG to you Amy.

Amy,

I feel the pain you are feeling today, I have also been in that horrible place, in disbelief, shattered world........
Every day I want you to take care of yourself and have no expectations, try to come to terms with what life is now, it is different but you are still here, you just have to figure out a new way to live in this world.........
You need to just get through one moment at a time, you don't need to make any decisions right now, not until you are healed a little more, and you can think straight again, it took me about 3 weeks......just getting through each day........
Then I could think again, and make some choices for myself........I would go see your doctor and try to get something short term to take the edge off, I did that and felt a lot better it is more than we are equipped to deal with by ourselves..

Figure out what you need now.........take care of yourself........

Amalynn,

This is a roller coaster ride, and we know how you are feeling.

It will help you to post here and tell us your feelings. Just writing down how you are feeling can help you get through the moment. Sometimes someone can say just the right thing, or sometimes just knowing someone is here and posting back a simple hello can help you through that bad hour.

What you are feeling is normal for the days and weeks immediately after d-day. You can expect mood swings - you may hate him then want him, then cry over it, and the constant thoughts are going to just be there. Knowing it is normal may not help to stop it, but it helps to know its normal.

It might help you to plan for eating, especially since you are breastfeeding. Your baby needs you healthy.



You asked how your husband can say he loves you, and still do this?

I asked this very same question.

I think I found an answer in something called "compartmentalization". Some people are able to separate the act of sex from the act of lovemaking. For people like you and me, we just do not do this. The two things are inextricably linked. We think of sex as being something we do that is entangled with the emotion of love. We do not separate them.

For some people, however, this is not the case. Sex is a separate and stand-alone event. Love is, also. Some people do not necessarily associate the two, although they can, and do, when certain people who are love-interests are involved. So when they have sex with a person they are in love with, then the love-sex connection is active. When they have sex with someone else, it is a separate thing - compartmentalized - to the sex only zone. A different compartment in their head.

We all compartmentalize to some degree. We keep work thoughts at work, for example. We say things like, "leave work at the door" when we get home, so we can relax ourselves and our minds once we get to the house. That is a type of compartmentalizing.

Some people can take this to an extreme. They can separate things like emotions, and do it in a way that seems cold and callous. It is almost inhuman.

Think about people who are sociopaths - I wonder how their compartments work, for example.

Anyway, that's my idea about how someone could love you and do something like this. They separate it out so completely, it seems to be a separate part of life to them.


then, when you find out - the reality crashes in on them, and those nice little cardboard compartments collapse.


They just really are not as effective as they thought, in the end. Sometimes they are quite artificial after all, these compartments.


SB

Hi Amalynn,

Thinking about you an just want to send you good wishes. Plus some hugs and hope you have some RL hugs to get through this difficult time.

You are doing great and are clearly a strong person. Breathe, eat, sleep, those are your jobs!

Thanks everything- still truckin on.

WH wants me to install a keylogger on our home computer. I just googled "ways to fool a keylogger" and there were a TON of websites to do just that. So........is just installing this pointless since he can get past it? I need someone to private message me the spying techniques please!!!!!!

Amy, there is an entire forum here on spying techniques, called Operation Investigate.

We do not have the facility for private messaging on MB.

The problem is that your H asked you to install the keylogger. Once he knows about it he doesn't have to find ways to fool it - he just needs to use another computer. I'm sure there are internet cafes or public libraries that he could go to.

The same goes for his reading here and seeing this post, or reading in Operation Investigate. Once he knows what you are doing he can bypass that route.

So.......a keylogger is pointless huh? All of his offenses (porn, cheating websites, hiring an excort, CL ads, and facebook) have been online, so how can I allow him to be online for just normal things like gaming, news reading, leisure surfing etc. without wondering what he's doing? I probably don't huh? Ugh, I don't want to be in a marriage where I can't trust anything he's doing!

And what about his job? He's talked to his boss and his bosses boss and I'm not sure they can do anything about blocking his internet. They've already said they can't block just facebook and he needs the internet/email for his job. He works for the gov't with a security clearance and I can't install anything on his work computer or anything. He has a good job here in southern CA and with 4 kids he can't just up and quit, but I don't trust him for a SECOND in his office in front of a computer with the internet. That office is where almost every affair and wrong-doing started and took place because I can't see what he's doing and can't access his e-mail from home.

HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am a BS too, and I'm gonna be blunt with you.

You are uncomfortable with his job and want someone to tell you how you can stay married, he keeps his job and the good living it provides and that you can trust him to be different when nothing has changed.

Ain't gonna happen.

You need to decide what you want, your family to stay together and marriage to rebuild, or his child support with his good job.

Which do you want?

Amy, Herb is right. it was too much trust that led to his past affairs. It is not a lack of trust that ruins marriages, but a lack of boundaries. And your husband has no boundaries. As long as he has access to an unsupervised computer, he will be tempted to have affairs. As I suggested to him, he needs to find a job where you CAN monitor his computer at all times. He doesn't have to quit that job outright, but he should be looking for a low security job where you have access to his computer. I would find a way to make that happen.

But if a keylogger is easily fooled, how would that help me?? ugh.

Amy,

I would suggest looking up TST/HerPapaBear's posts. His first thread
Her long story line thread

A couple things you will notice - TST was very reluctant to truly change his behaviors - they had a false recovery while she was still willing to save the marriage.

Notice when the tide started turning? Where you are right now and don't want recovery?

Here is where you get to see what your husband is made of and what value he has to you.

There is time to watch as you start down the path of protection because you have the power to stop the divorce process at any time. But here are the clues to watch for - and he will not be able to fake this.

1. He must accept that he has done irreparable harm to you and the marriage and be willing to do right by you anyway. This will show up in several different ways:
a. Respect for boundaries - If you ask him to go away, he will, but he will still seek ways to do quiet kindnesses for you without the pity-party-give-up game he's playing with himself right now.
b. He will want to regain his honor and self-respect as a man. That means recognizing that he and he alone is the cause of his grief and he will have no expectations that you reciprocate any kindnesses he might do
c. He would initiate contact with Steve Harley and if he has to work extra jobs flipping burgers at McDonalds, he would do that to come up with the fees to pay for this service because HE NEEDS TO TAKE THE INITIATIVE to get to the bottom of how to change his behavior.
d. He would stop asking you to be his mother, his policeman and his parole officer. It's not your responsibility to put on spyware to catch him or watch over his emails so that you can trust him. The fact is because he's unwilling to do the heavy lifting is why you know you can't trust him, not because you can't prove he's untrustworthy!
e. He would be doing the research, digging into his soul, finding an accountability partner with his church and whatever else he must do to prove TO HIMSELF that he can be trusted.
f. He will stop asking you for another chance after another chance after another chance. He will simply get up in the morning do kindnesses, serve you and your family, go to work, work hard, focused and determined, and circulate his resume to cut ties with his past while providing for his family.
g. His activities after work will be focused on family, relieving your burden, helping you in any way without hovering, begging for another chance. His focus will be different. It will feel different.
2. He will he will offer to take a polygraph. You come up with the toughest yes or no questions to the top four issues that would give you peace.
3. He will see to it that a postnup is created, and legally documented, witnessed and accounted for. The title to ALL assets will be moved into your name alone RIGHT NOW - not in the event he betrays you once again. He will leave himself completely financially vulnerable, with the understanding that this is not a contract for yet one more chance. This is his way of taking responsibility for what he has done, and leaving himself completely exposed to your whims as you have been to his whims for infidelity - give you the choice to still walk away without giving him another chance, but if you choose to, with less risk than if you were taking him back without those guarantees.

There are certain behaviors that cannot be faked. Eventually TST got past the faking point. But it took a LONG time. You won't see the first glimmers in Sexymamabear's 96 page thread until well into the 68th page - where she describes him as broken. You'll find her requirements to be very freeing and comforting to your mind:

Beware until you see true fruits of remorse - this pity party he's throwing right now is not convincing. Keep your guard up and move forward, and watch.

Growing up takes over 20 years for many people. Some can't do it in a lifetime, let alone in a few weeks after they realize their selfish immaturity is going to cost them dearly.

Trust that you'll know it when you see it. You know in your heart right now where things are.

A keylogger is not easily fooled. Nor can he hide too much if you have the password to his work email account.

Kayla- thanks, I'll look that up tomorrow.

Melody- google has all sorts of sites that talk about getting around it. Are those true? Also, he's just opened up many "fake" e-mail accts in the past to facilitate affairs...so having the passwords to the e-mail accts I know about doesn't seem to mean much.

Amy, frankly I wouldn't trust the key things he says unless its confirmed by polygraph. And no matter his words, his actions are going to be FAR more important to you I think than words.

My wife's words meant little for a long time to me, I wanted, demanded and I guess hoped she would also back up those words with actions, and she did. But hope wasn't a plan as you will hear here very often. WE got help from a great old lady, a psych lecturer, who thought much of what MB says was sensible and agreed to use it along with her own no nonsense approach. And yeah I admit I needed it as much as my darling wife.

Your WH seems to have owned up to a lot of things, except maybe owning up to FULL responsibility. He acknowledges it intellectually but I'm not sure he accepts it emotionally. Those "buts" seem to hang in the air after each comment to me.

Thats not that unusual though at this stage of the game. My wife had countless reasons. Not one excuse. You can ask her these days she'll tell you it herself.

I would suggest you do get a poly done for those key questions you have, answers won't be pleasant and frankly EXPECT the worst, more than he has said and you won't be taken by surprise. IF he has told you the full truth it at least rests those demons right?

The onther thing I would do is book sessions with Dr Harley here.

And lastly, get your HUBBY to do the running around to set this all up SUBJECT to your approval. The action means louder than words requirement.

As for money to pay for the poly and sessions, then hubby can do without the online games, a few beers and anything else that has taken him away from you and the family. Its his time to stand up and be counted. NOW!!

And the key logging work arounds, well even if they are there thats ok, you install the key logger of your choice and then at odd times with no warning have a local tech come out and check nothing is in the pc that does the work arounds. And your hubby gives up something to pay for that as well.

I think its entirely fair and reasonable for any betrayed spouse to know the facts as much as they want BEFORE deciding to work on the M or not. Even doing the sessions with the Harleys will not change that option and from what I remember its never been about marriage at any price or cost. It wasn't for me.

Marriagebuilders or not, Harley has always said some marriages should end. I do think you should try to find out if yours can be saved or not but really its your choice and of course your hubby has to also agree to step up.

Amy, my wifes affair was discovered by her OMs wife and exposed by my wifes own mum to just about everyone, I was deployed at the time and learnt about it on my return. It was [censored] and right on par with the death of our little boy some months before, someways even worse.

And YET, even with all of those things, and yes some fault on both sides for the state of our relationship, well we WORKED on it and no it was not easy. We have made it and we are happy together, perhaps at last in a long time. Its easy to drift apart when you are away from each other so often.

I want to give you some confidence, no not hope, that its not impossible to regain or even in some circumstances to discover you can have a worthwhile, loving, caring and exciting, marriage after what seems to be such bitter selfish and unforgiveable behaviour.

Storybook endings are for kids, oh don't think I never had that wish like most people because I did, but working hard every day on your marriage is THE reality for adults. And though its difficult for you to believe right now, it can be fun and rewarding.

I would encourage you to find out if your hubby can be the man and husband you expect him to be. He won't be perfect no one is. But a loving faithful husband and father with a steely determination to never cause you and his family such pain again, yeah that would good right?

just give it some thought, its your choice.

Amy, I need to say more about my post in which I said there was no point to a keylogger if he knows about it. I was in rather a hurry when I wrote it.

I DO have keyloggers on the two PCs in my home. I have never mentioned the word or concept "keylogger" to my H, and I am quite certain that he does not know that such things exist or that there is one recording everything he does here. It was a keylogger that picked up, first, his browsing OW's social network site, just once in April 2011, and then picked up a couple of emails sent to her later that month. I would recommend a keylogger to anyone.

The first email said "Here is my home email address. This is the only way you will be able to contact me when I retire in 3 weeks." Until then, for 8 years, the affair had been conducted via the workplace computer, landline and mobile. Like your H, my H's job involved security and he was not allowed to access his work email from outside the building. That meant, sadly, that I could not access it either, and there was point in asking for the password.

I knew that his imminent retirement in May 2011 would require him to use the home PC to keep in contact with OW, and I was right. He had barely ever touched the home PC for all the years we had owned it. He hates technology and gets in a real state trying to learn how to use it. He had to use it for work, but did not want to use it at home - but I knew that retirement would change all this, and it did. I am very glad that I had a keylogger on the PC.

The second email from this home PC in April was a catch-up email that showed that they had not met for 5 years, but planned to do so soon. When I read that, I first consulted a lawyer about divorce, then re-exposed to her H, then told my H that the game was up. At first he said he was leaving because I had been a witch and exposed, but two days later he asked to stay, and I made him contact the Harley coaching centre as a condition of staying. He did that, and sent a NC letter to OW's home. After that we began the online course and we are now in a tentative recovery. However, I still have keyloggers on both PCs and I can see he has never browsed any sites OW is on, not contacted her directly, nor had contact from her.

However, I do know what my H and OW did during the 8 years until we reached this point, and that is what I want to warn you about.

When I first discovered the affair when it was 6 weeks old (2003), he made sure that I never again discovered anything like condoms in the house - not that I ever looked.

When I discovered after two years (2005) that I had been in a false recovery and the affair was now deeply entangled, with talk of "love" and "waiting until the kids had grown, to be together", my H stopped bringing his mobile phone home from the office (I rediscovered the affair by reading their text messages).

At that point I knew that he would lie and hide things, but because the affair was conducted entirely at work I could not spy. Any opportunistic discovery I made was learned from and digested by them, and the affair partners simply changed their behaviour. My H told me that I was paranoid and asked me not to break up the family and hurt the kids when he had done what I asked and stopped contacting her. (This was all lies, you understand.)

When I finally discovered this forum and exposed to OWH, the couple apparently had a big falling out because my H chose to stay with me, and I was assured that the phone contact had finally ended. That was in 2007, and for four years until the events of 2011 I described above, I had no way of confirming that intermittent phone calls - perhaps one every six months - were continuing, to "keep in touch". I knew that they must be in touch because of the depth of the affair, but again, I was lied to, and felt that I could not break up the family based on only my suspicions.

Well, they "kept in touch" until her husband decided to retire early and go back to their country of origin. (We live in England and she lives in Belgium.) At that point, she knew that she could not be watched properly by her H, and proposed a meeting after he left Belgium. My H was only too happy to agree to meet her - not for sex, you understand. (Yeah, right.)

I didn't have time to write all this out for you yesterday, but I do not want you to have the impression that keyloggers are easily got round and that you shouldn't bother with one. What am trying to say is that if your H is still wayward - and you should assume the worse on this for many months to come - then, if he reads here and sees your plans, he will simply not contact his girlfriend from your home PC. There are always other PCs. He can go to an Internet cafe or the public library or the Apple shop, which has about a million Macs all hooked up to the Internet, all free, and you will not be able to trace this activity. That is quite apart form the secret, pay-as-you-go affair phone that he can buy and hide at work.

There are some spouses whose decision to have an affair is an aberration of character. When discovered, although they might not stop the affair dead straight away, they are horrified at what they have done and will go back to the marriage, broken. HerPapaBear was one of those; a devoted, happy husband for 20 years, with whom SexyMamaBear had a good marriage. He changed into someone unrecognisable when he had his affair, and did things that were in some ways worse than your H or mine; he left home to live with his ho, then lied about the affair being over, moved back home and out again, breaking the hearts of his 5 children several times. Your H and mine didn't do anything like that.

But when HPB had his come-to-Jesus, it was real and it and "broke" him. He wanted out of his affair and he wanted his wife and children back. He was a sobbing, broken mess and his wife knew that she had her husband back (although recovery was hard, as it always is).

Your H and mine are nothing like HPB. They were comfortable with their affairs for a long time, and it does not seem that these were aberrations of character. It seems to me that our Hs are very happy to have free nookie on the side while enjoying contentment in the marriage, and they have no conscience about doing wrong. They might not even see affairs as wrong per se - they are just a bad idea because they are always found out and people get hurt. My H regrets what he did, I believe, because it hurt me, the kids (who know all the details), her family and OW (bletch), but I don't think he regrets the basic immorality of affairs, according to what he has said to me on this.

Your H and mine are dangerous WSs and you and I must only trust what we can verify. We must assume that if they want to carry out their activities, they will simply get around any spying techniques that they know we are using.

I am only "trusting" my H right now because he is retired - and thus has no access to a workplace PC or landline - and because he is at home most of the time. He has no social life without me and no time unaccounted for. Because he does not know I am spying he uses our PCs, on which there is a keylogger, so I know what he does there. He has no mobile phone or other device and nowhere to hide anything in the house or car.

Unless you can bring about circumstances such as mine, in which he changes job and cannot have a secret second life, you cannot be confident that you know what he is doing.

You need to decide how much uncertainty you can live with, and how much you want to be his keeper. I have found a position that I am comfortable with. What reassurances and changes do you need from your H in order for you to to feel secure?

I would not allow him any computer time at all. I believe he lost that option, and if there is an emergency for his computer use, then you log him in and stay with him.

I know it seems childish to do this, but he ruined all his chances by using the internet to facilitate his adultery.

If he is serious about restoring your marriage, then the computer becomes ancient history.

Maybe in time when your trust is renewed you can find more options, but for now no Computer at all.

Amy,

What could your husband do, is there something that would work, how would he go about it...........
Give him help, tell him what will work......he is looking for guidance.......
he has screwed up things and has no idea how to fix it.........
Maybe tough is right no comp for now, no phone for now....

Given Schlag's history that had better be a very ugly toothless lesbian woman well over 80.

Amy,

So at this point, you want Schlag to be the transparent human. The man you can see inside, so you know what he's thinking and doing....so you could trust him.

We know that isn't possible. And as BS's, we all wish we could do that. We wish we could be everywhere they are, hear all those conversations, even go back into the past and hear what they said at certain times, so we could understand exactly what they were thinking. If only we could be inside their brains, then we could know for sure if there was REAL change, if they were REALLY broken, if they REALLY meant what they were saying, or if it was just lip service to get over this rough time so they could go back to what they were doing when they were so rudely interrupted.

Don't I know that feeling...

And you don't want a life where you are spying over his shoulder, looking to see what he is typing on the computer. Because, well...is he then typing it to make you think this or that? Is he only saying that on this thread because he wants you to think a certain thing about him, or is it a real feeling he has? You could be so suspicious of every move he makes, Amy. You probably are suspicious of everything right now, given your situation. There is zero trust. You may not even trust him to get two cookies when he says he is getting only two. Who's to blame you?

Your question is to ask yourself, "What do I see him doing?" instead of "What do I hear him saying?"

You should see him being actively involved in the marital recovery. He has a list of EPs going, and he should be following them without complaint. He should, in fact, be happy to do those. He should be looking for more things he can do for you to meet your emotional needs. He should be initiating conversations - you should not always have to do this - and he should make time to talk with you about your feelings and how you are doing. For example, he should be asking you about where your mind is, and if you need him to answer any questions for you.

One of the things you might try is for a notebook to go back and forth between the two of you. You can write questions down in the book, and he can write answers down for you. It is helpful, because as you go along, the notebook can become more than question-answer, but a book where he can give you information on things he remembers, such as timeline issues, or where he might just write down some of his feelings for you. Sometimes the WS is feeling things that they do not put into words, and it helps the BS to know this.

So watch what he does, and watch for consistency over time. And remember, this recovery can take a couple of years, with both spouses working at it.


You really have just begun the path.

Hey - let's not DJ the man. I am a mom with many kids very young, and was in Amy's shoes not too long ago. I was able to get a nanny, and that was a saving Grace for me.

Breastfeeding while going through adultery is the bottom of the pit. There were times I could barely hold my child because I couldn't stop crying. I have been there, and it was the worst time in my life.

I may have said this jokingly, but I still think it is never a bad idea to have an older babysitter. Not only for the other obvious reason, but older women tend to be more experienced and therefore calmer and more stable.

I am by no means a vet here, but I do understand your situation regarding the job with securtiy clearance. My FWH(serial cheater) has a very high security clearance and all the opportunity in the world to lead a secret life. My FWH was doing fine I thought,(after 1 yr post DDay) until I checked (unannouced) his work computer and found he had been looking at web sites that had lots of pics of scantily clad women....not porn, that can't be looked at on the work computer, but "soft porn" non the less. Anyhow, after that and discovering he had been drinking w a friend (that is against our EP's) all He** broke lose and I insisted on a second polygraph. He did then confess he attempped to lookup 2 OW on fb but couldnt remember their last names.....sad....

Anyhow, he pasted the poly. We rewrote our EP's being sure to cover EVERYTHING that was not allowed...ie..soft porn, looking up OW....ect... And, next summer 2012 I will again submit him to a poly (he enthusiasticaly agreed) if there are ANY EP's that he has broken,....all bets are off! I'm done!

After this last poly he seems to be really "broken". For some reason it sunk in the seriousness of what he has done. and he was truly repentant. He is a completly different man now.

It took a lot of time, and I probably went about things wrong. But, it's working now. He is actually excited about taking a poly next summer to show me how serious he is. He shares with me ANY contact he has with women during the day. He tells me if he was tempted in ANY way to look at something on the computer that is not allowed. It's almost "overboard" but I don't dare say that!

my 10 cents...

amy

this is my thread

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2559302&page=1

i am dealing with a serial cheater and my list i EP are long.

we were on the radio show back to back on may 12$ 13. i cannot link i don�t know why... (it�s on my thread - prob page 30 or so)

i understand what you are feeling really i do. your H posted here first... good step, he is probably looking to you to help, as you are being picked up from the bus that hit you, i know.

get a notebook and write everything down that you want to know, everything! you may cross things out and say this doesn�t matter, but at least you got them out,

you have just learned of the horrors that he has been living with for +++ years you are not going to get over it that quick it takes time, it will get better and you will think more clearly, just stay here and follow the directions from the vets.

you must demand that in order for you to make this work you need xyz (EP�s). no internet, no going out without you, unless work, nada nothing for him but you! and your children!!

you need to eat and sleep. lost way too much weight, heart probs at 42, all stress related. sleep!!! Get up every day eat shower and put on lip gloss.

please stay here and ask anything and everything you have on your mind, everyone is here to help you get thru this, i promise. we are not happy you are here but am glad you found this site.

ps. put the key logger on and get a phone logger such as mobistealth or one of the others suggested here. But instead of racking your brain, say no computer at all. really thats not to much to ask, no phone either, change all emails and phone. i have 2 on my H phone, one he knows and the other he doesn�t (happy for me accident)

ask for every email address used to enable affairs and every password and sit with him as he closes every account. tell him you want all accounts and password written out.

i downloaded iepassview and found every account so there was no denying what existed (found one that he didn�t write out). i also got his teamviewer number on his work computer and did the same. then we closed them. the first ones he did on his own and i needed proof ---so do it together,

you are thinking about all the ways he can get around it, i understand.

i am rambling, but my rules are no anything... sorry he fd up. the things that i am asking are what it will takes at this time to make me feel protected. harsh as they may sound.

it�s hard for me to type; I wish i could just pick up the phone. ...

So........I just found out that they can't do away with his internet at work and I can't put any keyloggers or phone spyware on anything at work. Almost all of his women and affairs took place while he was at work. (Well, not the sex part, just the talking and getting to that point) He says that a polygraph is the only way to have trust in that area. I can't live my life poly to poly! In the mean time, I'm anxious and scared and wondering what he's doing and if he can fool the poly, etc. Then we pay hundreds of dollars all while I sit there and die of anxiety.

This is so horrible. I feel SO SO physically sick ALL THE TIME. He's done so many things that I don't know which one to concentrate on at any moment. They are all intensely painful in so many different ways. I just want to run away.

(((AMY)))

I know EXACTLY how you feel. There are so many of us here who know what you are going through. I continued to function soley for my kids for a very long time. They were my driving force, the reason I got out of bed in the morning. Your kids need you , and they need you healthy.

You don't have to make a decision about your m today, or even tomorrow.

Let you FWH do the work. Let him SHOW you what he is made of. He seems to be doing alot to make things safe for you.

I know at this point it feels like there is nothing he can say or do to make this better. Truth is, you can't make it go away, but you can make your marriage better than it EVER was!

It takes time.

amy

I know how you are feeling. you need to rest if you can. you are going to make yourself sicker if you dont eat or sleep. take a deep breath, let it out and do it again. you will get thru this, i know it doesnt feel that way but you will. but you need to get strong. you dont need to do anything today.

I would suggest that you call the harleys ( steve or jennifer) it was the a key factor that helped me see there was a light at the end of the tunnel.
get a notebook and write down all of the crazy thoughts that are wizzing thru your brain. I found that it i wrote it out, it wouldnet be in my head anymore.

can you ask him to install teamviewer so you can see where he has been if he goes on the internet at work.

i can see that he is making his lists. what do you need or want on that list that isnt there? you write your list then merge them. the vets will be all over him if they find something fishy.

i was in you shoes not too long ago, and while its hard sometimes, every day it gets better.

Amy,

I just read your thread. Let me say, as a recent BS.....it does get better. A friend and a therapist gave me a trick to help stop the movie in my head. Every time I see the movie, think of a happy place and a trigger word. Repeat that word until you can see yourself in that happy place. It didn't work all the time, but it did work. It also gave me a point and a word to think about on many other triggers.

Your WH is and will go through withdrawals. He is not to be trusted, and he should know you and others are watching......don't tell him how, just that you are.

Post here daily, at least for the first few months or until you regain your sanity..... Those of us here, want to help, want to see you through this chapter of your life.

God Bless.....

Thanks TTS, I needed that tip!

Amy, what are your thoughts today? Please update us., and tell us how you are.

Fortunately, there is a solution for this. If he can't be transparent on his work computer, he can get another job. And that is exactly what Schlag should do. Since his affairs have been initiated on his work computer, then he needs to find another occupation where monitoring of his computer is possible. There is no little job that is worth sacrificing a marriage over.

Start thinking along those lines, Amy. Start brainstorming about ways to support your family where you can be together 24/7 ideally.

I did let Sclag know (because I was also one with a very high clearance in the govt.) they have IT people there than can block things. Most who have the clearance have all been briefed not to be on social sites because of threats by other countries, and all persons must sign an internet document stating they plan to use it for official business only.

I have seen people walked out for abuse with the internet. They lose their clearance on the spot.

Ask him if his IT people can put blocks on websites for him. Talk to his boss also. IT can be done if he will do the leg work to make it happen.

Tough

I must say, I find it passing strange that they cannot block his particular computer from accessing particular sites. You can do this easily at home, so it boggles the mind that a sophisticated company with already high security cannot.

Schlag was on the radio show today. Did anyone listen? If not, it will replay I believe.

I am doing a bit worse these days. Found out after jogging a memory of the big PA 2yrs ago, that he touched her in a very intimate way and she had quite the "weak in the knees" reaction. I'm just dying of pain that he would touch her in a way that I only thought he touched me in and that she quite enjoyed MY husband. I didn't ask for HER REACTION to the touch, but he gave it to me and it caused an insane amount of pain.

Ama,

Been there too. My WW wouldn't let me touch her while we had SF or touch her to give her SF.....I became a wam bam thank you mam, routin. She told me she didn't like the feeling, didn't like sex....and all that. Well during her PA, the OM was allowed to "have his way" with her and bring to a "happy" ending.

It is painful to think the one we love allowed someone else to share that intimate part of our relationship, but that our partners did. They did this selfishly, not thinking about our feelings. Keep the plan, get all the details you need....once you have them, stop asking. The sooner you get there, the faster you can start the recovery.

God Bless..

Thanks, Texas......I could totally relate to that reading what you said. Incredibly painful.

Can someone who has been there, PLEASE try to shed some light on how long it takes until I can be just a little bit normal and out of this despair? I feel desperate for the pain to lessen. It's all consuming and just too much. I want to escape from my body or something. Please help.

With remorseful husband like yours, it will take few months when you start feel better. But please, stop torturing yourself with those dirty details whether OW got week knees over this and that.

For Schlag - try to be less brutal with your answers, you dont have to tell your BW about OW-s reactions in such insensitive ways!

Also, should I force FWH to expose the affair to the OWH? She SAYS (6m ago when he contacted her on FB chat) that they are doing through a divorce but she is a liar and can't be trusted. And that only makes it easier for her to contact him if she wants to. I think her H has a right to know- divorce or not. Also- he knows her sister too and probably her parents. How many people should this be exposed to on her end?

Ok, I brought this up to him and he said he doesn't trust OWH to not be so enraged that he would come kill us or something. Also, the OW is a cop and he says he wouldn't trust her to not do something stupid either with the resources she has.

Excuses or valid?

Of course OWH must be told - but it is you who should tell him, Amy. Your H should not be making contact as it is a kind of vicarious contact with OW. If your H ever decides to send that man a letter of apology, however, you ca oversee that.

Don't listen to Schlag's nonsense about him coming after you. As far as I know, you live in a state and nation which has laws making it illegal to attack people. OWH is not a criminal with no regard for the law.

Exposing to OW's family would be a good thing. You need to read Dr Harley's Exposure newsletter in the Newsletter's forum.

So, if they are divorced (would confirm with public records) would it do any good to expose it to the OW exH? She's even scarier to me now that she's a free woman. I know he was suspicious of something because when I caught them chatting 6m ago and she covered up for my H, she told me that there was one good thing about divorce and it was not having to lie under the suspicions of someone any more. Gee........

Does he mean that OW is going to get all her cop buddies to come after your WH because you told her BH? I don't think it would happen. I would be willing to bet that OW wants to keep it a secret. It certainly is not going to help her career path.

As for the BH, I agree that he is more likely to be enraged that everyone knew but him. How would you feel if the tables were turned.

OWH needs to hear it from you so that he gets the true story. Waywards have a habit of downplaying everything. This man deserves to know the truth about his life. There is a good chance that this A is the cause of his divorce.

Actually, Pariah's WW's OM was a cop (if memory serves). I WOULD be a little careful about things...

I would most certainly tell the OWH all about the affair. This is information he has a right to know since it affected his life.

I am listening to the call today and do I have this right that the REASON your husband sang like a canary is because you threatened a polygraph?

Amy, I will just tell you right now that your husband is NOT serious about recovering your marriage. He is serious about getting out of trouble.

Any wayward who runs from facing the consequences of his adultery is NOT SERIOUS. His REFUSAL to allow you to tell his victim, the OW's husband, is a reflection of his lack of remorse and repentance.

And I will tell you right now he is not serious. You are not safe with an unrepentant WS.

Excuses

I have to agree, he didnt tell the whole story we finally got out of him on the site to the Harley's. It came out about the false recovery toward the end of the call.

Funny how this was not his concern when the payoff was some free STD nooky.... But when it comes to manning up and apologizing to his victim he has all sorts of excuses.

His reluctance to expose this affair to the OWH makes me wonder if he is still seeing skanky? Are you absolutely certain his affair is over? Because I will just tell you that when a wayward fights THIS HARD to keep an affair hidden, it is almost always because the affair is still on.

This is the most awful thing on the planet. How can someone live with themselves knowing they destroyed a family. My WH's OW feels no remorse for the bomb she detonated under my family. She is the lowest form of life on the planet and I am happy there is a warm place in HE!! for her.

I cannot imagine the devastation the BH is going to feel knowing his divorce was caused by adultery. I pray he has the best wife on the planet today, and she is nothing but sweet lovin' for him.

Tough

i have a feeling he is still having an affair with this woman. I can think of NO other explanation for his FRANTIC REFUSAL to confess his affair to the OWH.

I think he is covering up an affair. Amy, did your H actually TAKE that polygraph that scared him into these recent admissions? If not, you need to make him take the polygraph.

I BETCHA THIS AFFAIR IS NOT OVER.

Polygraph should be scheduled for Friday or Monday at the latest. You need to see an attorney ASAP. You need to make sure you have all the evidence secured.

The evidence will protect you - you need to get CS and alimony secured ASAP.

Even if the marriage survives you need to be protected until he can make you feel safe.

Tough

Amy,

Be strong. The pain does go down. Are you sleeping and eating? Take care of your health. If you haven't, see a Dr. about some AD meds. I am on them, and it has made my anxiety much less.

Amy,

You ask how long it takes to start feeling a bit normal?

If your husband were to start working for you, and if he were to really get on board with a recovery plan, it begins to start feeling more normal slightly every day. It sheds a tiny bit each day, and over time you begin to settle out.

The first couple of months are the very hardest. If your spouse is into a trickle-truth approach it makes it drag out, though.

Hang in there. Come here and vent. We are here to get you through it. Try not to make big decisions unless you have to .

No...I didn't tell him I was planning on giving in a polygraph. I talked about it to my therapist because I believed there was more than what he was telling me. He spilled the whole truth 2 days later and I gave him the poly to make sure the whole truth was out 5 days after that.

He called the OWH at work tonight but they were closed, so he's going to do it first thing in the morning.

Amy, Dr Harley suggests that the betrayed spouse informs the OWH. This way he is certain to get the full truth and you can verify it is truly the OWH. How do you know he was calling the OWH? It is not uncommon for a cornered WS to pretend like he is calling someone and all along it was someone else.

How will you verify this is the OWH?

In the polygraph, were questions asked about current contact with the OW? I am very alarmed at how hard your husband resisted exposing to the OWH. I have NEVER seen such resistance from someone who claims the affair is over.

Mel,

I agree there is still contact, but there is another option. Seen it from dozens of guys... Some men are just cowards. These are men that are nice at work, nice in public and with their friends, even on the passive side, but at home they are angry towards their wives and even their kids.

Amy,

just so you are prepared... There may very well be a lot more you find out than you thought. He may have info you were not aware of. If not, ok, but be prepared just the same.

CV

And I think you should be present when the call is made. Make sure he doesn't minimize or downplay this at all.

CV

I looked up the phone number and saw him call it. I will be listening in on speakerphone. I even paid to get a full background with his phone number so I will know it's him.

In the polygraph I asked if he had seen the other woman in person in the last 2yrs. I also asked if he had sexual contact with anyone besides me in the last 2yrs. I asked if he was hiding anything that might be hurtful to me. He passed on all of those questions the guy said. The ones he DIDN'T pass were "Do you believe you were in love with OW?" He says it's complicated because he loved how she made him FEEL, but he wasn't in love with HER. I don't know what to believe. The other one was "have you had oral sex with any other woman besides the OW, the prostitute and your wife since you've been married" and he failed that one every time. I'm not sure why since he passed the "are you hiding anything else" question and he had told me some pretty horrific things- why would he hide that? He told me that he performed oral sex on the prostitute and he had not confessed that detail to me as of the poly so maybe that is why it showed deceit? I don't know.

He doesn't have a problem exposing this to the OWH at all, but if the OWH is mad enough he can call and try and mess with his job. I guess I get where he is coming from, because if he loses his job then there goes any money that I would be getting from him for child support and alimony. We need every cent out here to support our family of 6 and if that goes away, we (I) am totally screwed. So, I guess he wanted to make sure it was worth the risk to his job by apologizing. I do think he's being sincere about that because when he came home he promptly called the OWH at work without hesitation. (They were closed, but he's calling again in the morning)

Amy, it will be important that you speak to him yourself to make sure that he is given all of the information about the affair. You also need to find out from him the truth about the "divorce" and his marital status.

I am not impressed with your husband's sudden "concern" about his job. He wasn't concerned when he was screwing around with the ho, [when the OWH would have the most reason to stir up trouble] so why would he be concerned when he is calling the man to apologize? That doesn't make sense and makes me wonder if he is not still in contact.

Secondly, I would strongly advise you to make it a condition that your H get another job. A serial cheater has no business in a high security job. That is not good for your marriage because you can't monitor him and certainly not good for his employer, the US taxpayer.

Your H needs to have a job where he has to be completely transparent with you. I understand you need his support and that he can't just quit, but he can start looking for something else now. And perhaps even consider starting a business together where you can be with him 24/7.

That still doesn't fit, though. When that is the case, there is mild resistance at first, but the WS pretty quickly agrees to the exposure because he has nothing to lose. Might be unpleasant, but so what? It is quickly over. The affair is over, after all. The only time I see this kind of resistance is if there is still an ongoing affair. I hope I am wrong, but to see a wayward go to this extreme is very, very troublesome.

He is looking into having them block all sites except for ones I approve for things that are necessary for his job and this will be ok with me as long as I have verification from someone high up that this was done.

He was never opposed to exposing to the OWH, he was just worried about what he may do out of anger. Honestly, if H loses his job, we (I and the kids) will be SCREWED. So, he wanted to make sure that the tiny risk of the OWH doing something was ok before he called. I guess I appreciate the say in the matter because if he called and exposed to OWH and then lost his job I would have been livid. I know he didn't think about any of that before (his job, her life, his life, any of it) but he claims that now when seeing clearly and trying to be a faithful and good H, he does care and wants to be transparent. The job issue is a big one because I need the money from it if I'm on my own.

The polygrapher was asking the sex question in a lot of ways to try and catch him if he was being dishonest. He asked about sexual intercourse, touching, oral sex, etc. The only one he kept failing was the oral sex. He was omitting the oral sex with the prostitute (well, told me she gave it to him, but didn't admit to the other way around also) so I don't know if that was why. He didn't want to offer up that detail right away because he knew it would be very painful since it's so intimate. He never lied about it when I asked him, he just didn't offer that detail up. He said he is more than willing to take another polygraph whenever I want to do it.

He had an appt with our awesome therapist tonight. (She's a PhD and really experienced and good) He talked about exposing this to the OWH and his concerns with his job and she thinks those are valid and something to really think about. When she learned that the OW is a cop, she was extra concerned about the exposing. Last we knew they were "in the middle of a divorce". If things are still being fought about and there are issues back and forth, everyone is worried about a revenge taking place there. I'm not sure what to think about what is best......

Just as an FYI - many companies security blocks only work on IE and do not work on Firefox, Chrome, or IE running a Chrome shell.

Facebook is blocked at work, but I can access it through Firefox on both of my corporate PCs.

Ok just a thought. In your husbands original post there was something about. "Experiment " that he would not go into here but that you knew about.

Could that have been the oral he kept failing? Possibly with anouther man. Either receiving or giving? Also possible childhood memories you don't know about?

I think knowing even if it is the worst you can think of is better than not knowing.

I am not surprised he has enlisted her help in avoiding this exposure. Your husband is terrified for this OWH to find out. He doesn't need the help of a therapist to do this but is enlisting her help in another attempt to avoid it. He first looked for cover behind your skirts and is now looking elsewhere when that didn't work. As long as your husband refuses to tell the OWH, he is still wayward. He is lying to his victim. He is not scared in the least about his family, he is scared for HIMSELF and most likely the future of his affair. As long as the OWH knows, he is not free to continue his affair with her.

\

In the middle of a divorce = MARRIED. You are being gaslighted, Amy, and I would strongly suggest that you call the OWH yourself TODAY.

If your husband is so scared of the OWH, then not telling him is the worst thing you can do. The reason is because the OWH is going to find out eventually and you won't have any control over when that might be. He will just have to go along and wait for the explosion. However, if YOU, AMY, call up the OWH, tell him about the affair, he will be less likely to do anything that would harm you and your four kids. Not telling him is the stupidist thing you can do because it will be worse if he finds out on his own.

Amy, I would be calling the OWH THIS MORNING before your husband can get ahold of the OW and forewarn her. I guarantee you they are still in contact and that is why he is PEEING HIS PANTS over telling him. It would ruin his affair and he doesn't want that.

Just get it done, Amy.

Amy. This is not solving the problem...it is trying to cover it up. Are you going to spend your life worrying and looking over your shoulder waiting for the truth to come out? But you won't know when or from who? It will be an even bigger scandal when it does finally surface and you will now be involved because you willingly helped to cover it up.

Schlag needs to either quit his high security job or come clean with his employer and ask for a transfer to another position. That would be protecting his family.

Think about it. This is just a big cover up and that usually backfires. You are now a participant.

**edit**

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I think if you were the BS and you were trying to save your marriage and your WS would not stop seeing the affair partner you would do what you had to do as well to stop that relationship, WS's won't just stop if you ask them, they are affair fogged out not thinking rationally..........Sure you could sit back and hope that they stop but maybe all that will happen is they fall deeply in love free without any interference from you..........
Or you could make the affair known to their families and children who deserve to know their lives are in jeaporady..............Families lives are at stake by the affair happening.......
Many times a conversation with a mother or child brings the WS back to their senses...........Affairs are fantasy there is no real life experience with it........so of course it is all nicey, nicey.........
When the affair couple has to actually think about the real life issues they would have they think clearer about their choices in life..........If the people you are hurting know It is a lot harder to do that..........
I think the exposure at work only happens if the Affair couple works together, recovery can't be successful if they continue to work together lots of times an employer can help separate the couple so NO CONTACT can be put in place for the recovery..........
It is not done to harm anyone it is done so others can help the BS save the marriage and the family........
I think if you were having an affair you would have already come to terms with being embarrassed in the event of it becoming public.........
That would have been a consequence you had already comes to terms with before deciding to have an affair while you were married so that embarrassment would lie on your own shoulders no one else........
Sure a lot of marriages are in trouble before affairs, but we all take vows that say through better or worse and this falls in the worse category and that doesn't not give you the right to have a relationship with anyone else while you are still married.
you sign up for marriage knowning that your spouse should respect you and honor you............
In any situation you have to know what you are up against in order to protect yourself and your family in order to put a plan together to save what you view as valuable........When a WS is lost like they are in an affair sometimes the BS has to be the strong one and carry them until they find themselves again, the BS is only trying to do that to save their family and the WS from the destruction of themselves..........
I think if you were in that postion you would do whatever you had to do to save your family..............any good leader or partner would do the same thing

You are right, it doesn't make sense that he passed the "are you hiding anything else" question when he was indeed still hiding something.

Was your polygrapher certified?

It sounds like he/she asked a laundry list of questions, and I can tell you when I was researching a poly for my STBX, the two people I spoke with were emphatic that they would only do one area of inquiry per test or else it would reduce the accuracy. I found a website that basically describes what they told me.

Link: http://nycpolygraph.com/Infidelity.aspx

If you look in the Operation Investigation forum, chickadee posted the questions that the examiner asked her H, all the questions were regarding whether her H had fully come clean. I do believe your WH still needs to take that exam from someone who is qualified to get to the bottom of whether you have finally gotten the whole truth.

I am in agreement with everyone else that the OWH must be told.

Recently I read a great older post from Mrs W to a BS who had been convinced into going along with not exposing to the OPS. Wish I could remember what thread it was so I could cut and paste it for you.

Amy, I hope you realize that this is not the first time a WS has used these excuses to NOT expose to the OPS. Very often the violence/retailation card is used by the WS. This is nothing new and it's a wayward tactic to scare the BS.

The worst thing you could do with a wayward is help them cover up their crime. And just remember if you go along with this you now have become a partner in the victimization of the OWH.

IE is the only browser that is installed on his computer at work and he can't install anything else without admin privledges which he doesn't have.

I know all of the details about that and it wasn't oral sex...also the childhood stuff I know too and I feel confident that I do know all of it.

was it with another man? I'm confused as to what he could possibly be failing here. Unless he was currently involved with someone I don't see how he could have failed this.

One thing regarding exposure. If you expose to the OM, you can explain your situation. Chances are if they are in the middle of an ugly divorce, he won't have time to go after your husband's job.

CV

AMY, the more I think about this, the more convinced I am that his affair with the cop OW is still ongoing. And I will explain why.

His supposed "fears" about the OWH busting him at work don't make any sense. Why would the OWH do that after receiving a call from a supposedly "sorry" OM about an affair that was LONG DEAD? An affair with his EX-WIFE from whom he is now divorced? He would have no reason to fear any such thing at all.

In the RARE instances where a BS has exposed at work, in my 10 years here, it is only when then the OP and the WS work together and the affair is CURRENT.

Now, I do believe your husband is scared to death. He is peeing his pants. But the reason is because the affair is still ONGOING and he does not want to have his affair interfered with. THAT is why your husband is so frantic.

The reasons he gave for his "fear" don't make any sense for the reasons I gave above. If he was ever afraid of something like this happening, he would have been very afraid when the affair was ongoing, but he wasn't.

Your husband is gaslighting you, Amy. Don't let him get away with it. I predict you will be quite surprised when you call the OWH. You might hear some things you didn't know.

The phone call was made this morning. He talked, but it was on speakerphone and I listened in. The OW exH was shocked and had no idea, but told my H that all was forgiven. H told him he could call anytime if he had any questions. He apologized and asked for forgiveness. They ARE divorced so he didn't seem very bent out of shape.

I also made him call the OW this morning. I wanted her to know that he DIDN'T love her and that he used her. I wanted her to know it had nothing to do with our marriage to why he sought out an affair. I wanted her to know it was HIM that mailed the NC letter (should arrive there today or tomorrow- mailed from CA-MD) and not me and he meant it. He told her he was sorry for hurting her and her family and asked for her forgiveness. (I thought that was a bit nice but he needed to ask I guess) The only thing that really upset me was I wanted him to call so I could hear from her if there was something else going on or something that I didn't know about from the actual affair and the like. However, the first thing he said was "I'm sitting here with my wife"........so DER. Obviously she wasn't going to say anything then. He says he didn't realize that I wanted to listen in privately and I think that is the obvious thing, but I guess not. So......back to the poly guy tomorrow which is unfortunate. I wanted him to call her so I would feel better about things, but that comment only made me feel worse. I just feel like she owes me a freakin APOLOGY!!!!!!! It makes me irate. But, yeah, he left it with he wasn't going to ever contact her again and he wants her to do the same. (the letter will also arrive shortly)

Anyway, so......I don't know. The exposure call is made anyway.

Melody- I don't think so..... She lives in MD, is divorced, a cop, and has 3 kids. It would be very difficult for him to be having an affair with her currently when he hasn't traveled out that way in quite some time. He really did have NO reservations in calling the OWH. He was worried about HER anger from it all mostly because she's a cop and he revealed to her that he used her/didn't love her/etc. He wasn't worried about his job/family/her family/anything back then because his need for the fake and fun sex superseded EVERYTHING. Now that he's trying to come clean with his life and be honest it makes sense why he's worried about losing the thing that supports our family.

But I'm still doing a poly tomorrow to make sure this is accurate. Any ideas as to the questions I should be asking?

Yea like nudge nudge wink wink...... play along for the next few mins and I will explain later.


Amy you do understand an affair does not have to have physical contact to wreck a marriage. Instead of asking about physical touching you need to specify contact of any kind.

Amy, it is not difficult AT ALL to carry on an affair long distance. In fact, most of the affairs we see here would fit that description. An emotional affair - conducted over the internet - is just as destructive as a physcial affair. Many affairs are carried on over the internet with occasional physcial meetings. So the fact that she lives far away means nothing.

I am glad that you stuck to your guns, but I would strongly suggest you keep watching him with this one. The fight he put up yesterday to avoid telling the OWH


And that even makes less sense, because if he had broken contact what would she be angry about? The issue is that your husband's evolving stories never add up. He has a long history of dishonesty so I would caution you about giving him the benefit of the doubt.

I would focus on this OW and find out if he has had any contact with her recently. Any contact = continued affair.

I did ask that in the poly I did a couple of weeks back and he passed that question. I asked if he had seen her in person in the last 2yrs and he passed. At that point I was just trying to make sure he wasn't currently sleeping with someone. I guess tomorrow I will focus on if they have had any contact via phone/internet/etc. that I don't know about already.

He was just concerned that she would be super angry that he was going to tell her exH. And she was. She called him selfish over and over again when he said he needed to disclose the affair to her ex. Just kept saying that he was only doing it to make himself feel better and he was selfish. He told her that I appreciated the knowledge of the affair and I felt that her exH should know as well. She wasn't happy. I'm sure it wasn't good to hear that he didn't love her and he used her, so you never know what someone will do when they are angry. I'm sure it's a tiny possibility, but revenge is always a possiblity I guess.

The OW exH called my H back again and he came home from work so I could listen in and talk if I wanted. OW exH said that the OW called him and said they never did anything physical and that my H was just using that as an excuse to get out of our marriage!?!???! WHHHHHHHHHHAT? If he wanted out- he could walk out. No need to go into such great detail about 8 affairs to try and keep me. Goodness. So, the OW exH just wanted the details from my H and he gave them to him honestly. He just seemed 1/2 angry, 1/2 shocked, and mostly like whatever- I'm rid of her. He suspects she had at least 3 other affairs that he knows about....my H being the 4th. He wants to have a revenge affair with me! ha! Well, I'm not a dirty cheating skank, so unfortunately I can't fulfill that as much as it would feel good. What a freakin mess.

Amy

95% of my FWH A's were long distance. All it takes is a phone call/email to get that "hit".

I've done 2 polys. 2010 and 2011.

I could only ask 4 question (think that is some Texas law) and the Tech said "emotional" based questions will not work....as in "do you love me?" He says, "one minute you can feel love for someone, the next minute you may not, it doesnt' mean you don't love them"

The questions I used are as follows

1. Do you currently have any secret sources for contacting women that your wife does not know about.
*Tech went over a long list of "secret sources" ie. PO boxes, email accts', chat accts, phones,computers, secret files, collection of pics, memorabilia, ect....

2. Have you completely disclosed all inappropriate activity that has been made by you since your marriage.
*again, the Tech went over a long list and definition of "inappropriate activity" was. ie. sexual talk, flirting, kissing, humping, touching, OS, S, ect... he was fairly graphic in description so my husband had no wiggle room and understoon completely that it included ANYTHING I would not approve of.

3. Have you deliberatly watched porn, that you have not told your wife about? (I wanted to know this)
*again, books, magazines, TV, movies

4. Have you been completely honest with the questions your wife has asked you regarding your affairs. ie...length of time, number of OW, current contact ect..

The Tech also had some baseline questions that he asked before he got to mine.

My FWH had a little trouble the first time, and filled me in on the spot about some things that he had'nt told me. But, the 2011 poly he passed.

Our tech did suggest I let FWH read and "think" about the questions before the poly. He said it is easier to tell if he is lying if he has spent time "thinking" about it, and trying to cover it up.

I wish you the best!

Amy, just so you know, his asking that SKANK for "forgiveness" was a violation of the policy of joint agreement because you were not enthusiastic about it. Just agreeing to something you don't want to do is NOT the POJA, it is a violation. He should have never done it for that reason alone.

Your husband did not owe that skank an apology because he did not sin against her, he sinned WITH HER. They sinned against YOU, the OWH and your children. So asking his partner in crime for forgiveness when she willingly commited a crime against his wife and children is disgraceful.

Talking to your husband is like being in the Fun House. I feel like I am talking to my serial cheater father, seriously. Nothing makes SENSE.

Great post, lgtex!!

Amy
read the questions i asked.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2473858#Post2473858


also here is a link to my thread:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2559077&page=1

we did the poly in mid may- so you should read a few days before when the flood gates opened....

I believe we need to get to the bottom of her divorce. Did she divorce her husband because Schlag was preparing to leave you for her?

I asked him some specific questions because there was something from 2009 to 2011 that was keeping her fresh in his mind. I want to know exactly what fantasy they were building together. Divorcing you with four small babies will be very expensive to him.

The best that can be had at the moment is getting him to be radically honest. The first part of breaking this thick fog of his is to crash the fantasy still playing in his mind with reality.

He is still very foggy, and that concerns me. He seems to still try manipulation on you to control the outcome of the situation. POJA will correct that, but it will take time.

Let's see what he has to say about this relationship exactly.

Amy, did you see what I posted to you earlier regrading your polygrapher? I do not think the one you used for the first one was experienced if he was asking questions in several different areas.

I would urge you to call a couple others that are certified MarriedForever has also posted about this topic and the algorithm used, etc. The polygrapher chickadee used did the same thing - ONE area.

Amy, I would also urge you to please run some of these ideas by the folks here before acting on them.

Your WH broke NC by calling the OW which is Rule # 1 in recovering from an affair. The reasoning you had (to let OW know that the NCL was indeed from your WH) was not a good reason and we would have tried to talk you out of it.

There is a reason MB has these rules and there is a reason that Dr Harley says that any deviations from his plan are usually disastrous.

Why thank you Mel, that means alot coming from you!
I'm learning....slowly...

ITA. There are some lingering questions here.

The OW exH said she had other affairs, so I don't think my H in particular is the cause of her divorce.

I just feel too tired and emotionally drained right now to know what to believe and what to do.

I'll let him try to answer these questions himself later tonight on his thread.

Amy,

The first thing your husband said was that he was sitting there with his wife

because

he wanted the OW to KNOW that everything he was about to say was not coming from him. He indicated to her by telling her you were there that he feels controlled by you. He was sending a message about his "poor pitiful situation".


She immediately knew that anything he said was to be erased.


And everything she said, HE ERASED.


It was a fake conversation.


His apology to her? Was an apology for calling her, and having you there, and embarrassing her.


It was his way of protecting her.


I hate to have to tell you that. I hate this whole situation.

I hate it.


He got a fix from her, and he owes you an apology. You are correct.


I have told him REPEATEDLY that he is NOT BROKEN.


The evidence was that phone call and his apology to her, as well as his demeanor of letting her know that you wanted him to call. He was pouting.


And "telling on you" to her.


This is the very same behavior he used to reel her in during his affair.

He is still blaming you for what he sees as problems in the marriage. He does not recognize that it is his behavior that gets him where he is.




On another topic -

You were wondering why he has failed the question regarding oral sex?
It asks regarding OW, the prostitute, and your wife. The problem is this - it is not specific as to giving or receiving. My instinct says that he is deceptive around that issue. He may be avoiding it on those grounds (an "incomplete" act, since maybe he "only received" for example).



What questions would I ask? They would be very global. Not an inch of wiggle room.

1. Have you completely and fully confessed to your wife each and every physical or sexual encounter with any and all women, not including your wife, with whom you have had extramarital encounters since the date of your wedding?

2. Have you completely and fully confessed to your wife each and every inappropriate online relationship with females or males which you have had since the date of your wedding?

3. Have you purposely withheld any details of sexual or emotional relationships from your wife, for any reason - including reasons which you may believe to be justified, such as to protect her, or because you believe them to be negligible, or unimportant, or that you believe you would not call them inappropriate but your wife might overreact?

4. Is it your intent to withhold details of certain relationships no matter what, because you believe that what your wife does not know cannot hurt her?

5. Was your most recent physical affair one intended to become a longer term relationship?

6. Were you in love with any of the women with whom you had affairs?

had 2 of these!

H- i am not bad she is the big bad mommy whos putting me in the corner, its not my fault, swear, pinky swear".... pout pout.

amy get your list together- call a poly guy with police,cia, decetive experience. it will be horrible but you will come out of it stronger and a better understanding of what you are dealing with. you are a strong woman, you have birthed 4 babies, take time in your own brain and think and plan what you are doing, do not be led by him.

eat and sleep!

Amy - he is likely the cause of her divorce, and his relationship with her has been ongoing all these years. You need to find out in the polygraph if he was planning on leaving your for her, and hence she left her husband.

Her husband can say many affairs. That can mean many different things. I suspect Schlag is the main reason, and their relationship has been ongoing for a while. He is hightly addicted to her still, and he is very foggy when it comes to his feelings.

He is throwing you under the bus. If he ever defogs he will be on his knees looking you square in the eye and telling you how much of a wh0re she is for sleeping with a married man.

{{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}

Tough

Your H might have just been the straw that broke the camel's back for the OWH.

Amy,

Please listen to what all these folks are telling you. There is wisdom in what they are saying. Get rest. You need your strength to deal with this.

The OW exH had no idea about the affair with his exW and my H. He was totally shocked. He did say she had 3 other affairs that he suspected. When my H called him he almost didn't know who he was and my H had repeat his name and the OW exH said he hadn't heard his name in years. He really had no clue. When I asked him if she had other affairs he quickly said, "Oh yeah... at least 3 that I suspect". So, I honestly don't think my H had anything to do with it. She was sleeping around long before my H was in the picture.

No, what I mean is--OWH might have been willing to work through it until he got wind of YET ANOTHER affair. It wasn't your H exactly, it was probably just the fact that he was the latest in a string of OMs for his wife.

At least, that's what it looks like to me.

I often tell BSs, "Eyes Always On The Prize" to fight temptations to go off-target like this. As long as OWxH has been informed of the A, whether or not WH was the proximate cause of that breakup is ONLY of import as a measure of WH's emotional/romantic intentions toward POSOW, as regards bailing on his current marriage. You are NEVER going to reliably get that information from analyzing the tea-leaves obtained by questioning OWxH, POSOW, or WH - until you get WH hooked up to a polygraph.

Right now that should be your prime focus of attention.

How are you doing amy? We worry like mother hens when we don't hear from BS during hard times.

Eh....it's rough. Poly at 5:45pm. Will update afterwards. Please pray that he passes! I feel sick.

I have been and told him be better this time.

pls let us know what happened..... what questions you asked.....

I won't find out the results until the morning... AHHHHHHHHH!! She said she needed to score it and doesn't have time tonight since she has another appt. I might not sleep at all.

hang in there Amy. One night won't change the world. Get some rest if you can..

CV

He is worried that 2 of the 4 questions were really vague and too broad. I can't remember exactly how they were worded, but I can ask and write them down tomorrow. If he did fail those 2, I want to break them each down into more specific questions and then do it again. He said he was terrified of them (the 2 broad ones) in case he was not remembering something since these lies go back SO far. I guess I get that and we will dissect them down on another poly asap if needed. ughhhhhhhhhhhh.

get the questions and come back, they are broad questions for a reason. it they were specifc you could leave things out.

I suspect he lied and is preparing you for that eventuality. If he doesn't "remember" then he does not have awareness of deceit.

I agree. He already knows he didn't pass.

Big fat FAIL! And of course he is already spinning as fast as he can. His explanation for failing it is that he was "lying to himself."

OH.MY.LORD.

Amy, I am sorry to say that you are not safe with this man. He is very manipulative and I seriously doubt that you will ever get the truth.

Oh Amy, I'm so sorry. I cant believe he failed them all even after asking you to change one so he would for sure pass it.

He is so used to telling the lies that he thinks they are the truth.

At least no you know the truth.... That is that you will never get the truth.

I have had many polygraphs done for my job. If you know you failed, then you are lying. There is no way to get around it. You know exactly what is happening before and during.

God Bless Anna

Ok, just posted this to him. This is as far outside the box as I can think of other than the drugs they pump into you to make you tell the truth in the spy movies.

What woman still believes a man who has shown, without a doubt, that he lacks integrity?

Hypnosis will not restore integrity.

Amy, I would agree that your husband sounds mentally ill. All of the advice in the world cannot change mental illness. Although I think your husband is more manipulative than mentally ill. I would not put it past him to grab hold of a 'mental illness' excuse and claim 'I just can't remember! I black out sometimes.'

I went to school with a girl who would drift off into trances. She was a sp.ed. kid who was mainstreamed, this was way back in the 80's. We got to be friends. She confided in me that she faked the 'trances' because it got her out of doing things she didn't want to do. She would just stand there and glaze over. She wasn't mentally ill (although I'm sure it drove her parents crazy), she was a craftyazz manipulator who was way smarter than her parents, her teachers, and her healthcare providers.

Your husband seems to me to be a craftyazz manipulator, too. Don't let him outsmart you with his BS. He knows what he has done and he knows what he is doing, and you will continue to be his victim if you fall for ANY of his crap. For your children, I think you need to help him along to the bottom that he needs to hit to WANT to change for the better, and that means filing for D and implementing plan B. He's out of chances, imho.

I'm sorry. I know you didn't sign up for this.

(I posted this on Shlags thread also)

I may have missed it, but did he see/read the questions a day before he took the poly?

He needs to sit with you and go over them. You break it down as much as he needs, write out his answers and discuss it.

The ONLY reason he will fail is if he is being deceptive.

If he forgot anything, he won't fail because he won't be lying.

There is something in his head that he is trying to keep from you.

My FWH has poly's for his work. He KNOWS is there is ANYTHING even something small that he has not disclosed, that he will fail. He discussed the questions with me, and disclosed even the smallest thing that might set off a "deceptive" alarm.

Quick question. My mom wants to fly me and the 2 little ones out to see her and my stepdad next week to just get away and give me some help. So, the H would be home with our 2 older ones (5 and 7). I know he is fully capable with them, but how do I have full transparency with me 1/2 way across the country? He said he will still call me when he gets to work and when he's leaving and then he would be picking up the kids 15min later and can call me when he has them. I know he wouldn't be doing anything when he had the kids until bedtime, but then what? He has appts with our MFT 2 nights and he can call me from there so I know he's there, but what about when he's home here and they are sleeping? He won't have access to a computer.... but I just worry about people coming to our house maybe. That would shock me, but I guess knowing what I know about all of the lies I can't put anything past him. I'd really like to go home and try to escape this mess for awhile, but it might put me over the edge not knowing where he is. Help!

Oh and another question about the poly.......

He said the questions were so vague and she was asking so much about his past in the interview that he was having a hard time remembering. He was trying to make the questions more straight forward since his memory is horrible (I can vouch for that) and he didn't want to show deceit when he was just not remembering something. Anyway- the polygrapher and him got into quite the argument and were almost shouting at each other I heard. She kept reiterating how he needed to be calm and not fear the test. Well, that fight happened like minutes before the test and he was totally worked up. She said he even failed the questions that weren't the REAL questions... just not as bad. So, is another poly is order? Can this one be trusted? He has told me such horrific things and details about so many things, that why on EARTH would he still be holding in something? Doesn't make sense. I even told him I was filing for divorce unless he came out with it...and I'm going to. He still stands that he HAS told me everything. He supposedly passed the last lie detector on questions like "are you hiding anything about any sexual relationships from your wife" so why does it show deceit now? UGH!!!!!!

Also...last night he was laying there praying and thinking and a job search engine he uses popped into his head. He remembered adding the DC area to his job hunt. (We are always looking to move back home to a cheaper area like TX if a good job comes along) He told me about it right away and I remembered him asking me if I would be interested in moving out there. He asked me to check my e-mail records because I was sure it was over e-mail and sure enough......he e-mailed me from work on August 6th, 2009. His 4th work trip out to see her was August 3-5th. So, he just remembered that and said that he obviously was in deeper at the time than he realized. Could that have been a reason some of those questions showed deceit?

The truth is trickling in. I suspect more will come. He has years of things to confess. In regards to the poly and his arguing... I don't know him. I have heard of folks doing that to intentionally blow the test. If he has a top clearance, he would know the things that disrupt polys. Not saying he did it mind you, just thinking here.... Also, why wouldn't her trust a professional poly tester and want to change the questions. They are designed a specific way for a reason.

He doesn't have a TOP clearance, just a regular one so he's never done a poly before these 2 recent ones. He wanted to change it because he was unsure as to the conversations they had 2.5yrs ago. He knows he made a "joking" comment about how if they were together they'd have 3 girls and 3 boys just like the Brady Bunch. (we had at the time 2 girls and 1 boy and she had 2 boys and 1 girl) So, he thought there had to be more to the convo than just that one comment, but he couldn't remember what was said- if anything of substance. So he knew that he'd fail the question if she asked talking, but knew he never actually said the words "I'd leave my wife for you". But like you said in his thread, that can be conveyed in other ways besides actual words.

From Schlag�s thread 11/2: �I'm willing to quit my job and move some place cheaper like TX but Amy is not willing to do that yet.�

Some people, for reasons that just can't be understood by the rest of us, cannot be open and honest. Just can't do it. I don't know if you're married to this type person or not, that's ultimately your judgment call.

I'm really hurting for you and your children Amalynn. I wish you didn't have to go through this.

So where are you at in all this right now? Are you still thinking divorce? Are you thinking of trying to reconcile?

I am filing for divorce. He claims that he will win me back and prove to me he can be a new man. So, I told him that IF IF IF IF he DOES become a totally different and changed man, he can date me as a new person and marry me all over again with new vows and has a healthy man. He says he won't date anyone until the day I get re-married and he knows there is no hope, so we will see!

Amy, I wanted so badly for this to work out for you, I really did. But when I saw how foggy he was and how committed to continuing the lies, I knew you were in trouble. I recognize the language of bullcrap and that is the language your husband speaks on a regular basis.

I think you have only scratched the surface with what you have found out. I am so very sorry.

Amy - I am also sorry. I also have many many young kids, and I am doing all by myself since my WH has left us for the OW.

Being free of the lies is something I cannot tell you enough. The lies they tell break you, your soul, and is so cruel and abusive.

When Schlag is ready to be 100% radically honest with you, you will know. You will see it in his eyes. He will never speak of an excuse or a reason.

He will pass a polygraph with flying colors, and he will do everything in his power to care and protect you.

When that happens you know he is the real man you want.

We are here for you 100%, and know many of us moms are walking the same journey. If you have a moment read Tully. Her thread is a mom of four and her WH left for the OW as well.

I really believe the affair is still happening. I feel he was and probably still wants to leave you for her. He just doesn't know how to be a man and do it. He wants to lay blame on you.

Tough

Hold him to it. He's chosen a hard road. Not an impossible one, but a very very hard one.

CV

How could the affair still be going on when he exposed this to her exH? She was not happy he was doing that and told him so.....called him selfish and was angry. Also, he was using her for sex and he can't be anywhere or do anything to make that happen without me knowing about it, so....

It is his mind Amy - he uses self deception. He draws himself into a fantasy world that is filled with everyone loving him, admiring him, entitling him, instant gratification ... his fantasies make him believe he is the best thing since Brad Pitt

Here is the thing ... it starts internally within him ...

If he is 100% open and honest with you, then your respect with him will turn into admiration.

If he provides, protects, and cares for his family then you can admire him.

If he helps you domestically, financially, and with intimate conversation then your love for him will grow

The first step is Schlag - he has to change his life radically in order to begin the process. He must be an open book with you 24/7. Your lives must become interdependent.

He must internally start an action where he habitually derives his happiness from himself.

How do habits get formed ... by doing them daily, hourly, secondly

He is entitled to nothing
He is only special in the eyes of his wife and four kids
He is only admired by his family

Schlag has a lot of internal work that will need some professional help. I would look for a counselor that has extensive work in self-deception.

It will be a long path for him ... keep in mind the reward on the otherside is worth more than diamonds. He will have his soul back, and then and only then can he love again.

Schlag is extremely dangerous to you because he cannot control his mind. His fantasies are internally destroying him. He is out of touch with reality. His has poor boundaries so he lets everything in to feed him. This is why the EPs are crucial to protecting you.

Schlag is seeing it now ... there is a positive here ... this is only the beginning, and there will be many dark days for him.

He has never in his life had to work so hard for something. He goes back to this HS woman because that was the last time he successfully accomplished something on his own and he was proud of himself. He feeds off that time period ... unfortunately he associates her to his feeling of liking himself.

Schlag's life has now become unmanagable, and like an alcoholic, he is sucking his drug to get control.

He reminds himself ... I was something ... I was this and that ... I was a somebody ... because today I am a nobody.

He has two choices continue being a nobody or change his actions and be a somebody. He has four babies that want him to be everything ... that is the path (very very narrow path) he has to want to head down that path all on his own. WILL HE?

Schlag gets sucked away from that path by external stimuli (porn ,prostitutes, beautiful women) and then he sets out on a path of lies because he knows he isn't doing anything admirable. But his goal was to gain admiration.

Can you see now - it has been his mind, his heart, and his soul? He has deceived himself so much his entire fantasy has now just imploded and the loss of control has him spinning.

When loss of control happens the only way he learned to gain control was to lie, decieve, and omit. Unfortunately that tactic has run its course, so now he has to gain control by honesty, hard work, and character ... WILL IT STICK?

Agree and wanted to add...

When I found out my STBX had erased a little more than a weeks worth of text messages and phone calls with a coworker this past June, I freaked out and assumed it was the beginning of an EA. I told my STBX that I would be divorcing him and he came here to MB to try to get some help.

The first day that my STBX started posting here, after going back and forth with him a bit, MelodyLane told me she was sure it was a full blown affair. I found it hard to believe because on paper, it really seemed to be just the beginning of an EA (which he basically admitted to) and because we spent ALL of our free time together, it seemed next to impossible they would have been able to do anything physical at work.

She was RIGHT. She and some of the other vets KNEW that not only was it a full blown affair but they also KNEW after he admitted to the PA that he was still not being truthful about EVERYTHING. (Later I found out that they were again right and that he has been withholding other things regarding extramarital activities from me from the last several years)

Please believe me, some of these vets, like Melody, have the BEST bull*hit detectors I have ever seen. I bought into a lot of the crap my STBX was telling me over the last few years because (obviously) I was too emotionally involved to see the situation objectively. Sorry to tell you, but I see a lot of similarities in the way my STBX and your WH talk.

I don't know if your H is still having an affair right now, but I am certain he is still willfully withholding information from you. I am also very certain by his actions on his own thread that he HAS NOT dedicated himself to being radically OPEN & honest...yet.

Amy,

What I meant was hold him to changing. Whether you guys divorce and get back together or divorce and never remarry. If he is intent on getting himself straight, hold him to it.

Amy, I am not sure why you think the affair is over. I sure am not. He could easily be in daily touch with her via phone at work. He can email her from his work computer. And she could fly in for visits. I haven't seen anything that convinces me his affair is over. In fact, when a WS fights that hard to avoid calling the OWH, there is usually a reason. Sure, he was using for her sex, but many other things too. That doesn't lessen the effect of his affair.

I am not trying to be debbie downer here, but what is it exactly that makes you think the affair is over?

Mel- I guess I just do. She is a cop and probably doesn't have a job where she can just fly in whenever and she has 3 young children. He did have a right to be worried about retaliation from her exH because we are almost positive he was recording us when he called back later for more details on the affair. The OW called her exH and denied it to him and said nothing physical ever happened and he was just looking for an excuse to leave his marriage. Uh... that makes no sense. So, he called back and at one point a recorded voice came over the phone and said something like "your recording has 1 min left". He "pretended" to freak out that we were recording him, but we obviously weren't. So, he might use that against her and go back to court about the divorce (it is final), he might mess with her job, he might mess with my H's job... who knows. We just had no way of knowing and we still aren't sure if he will do something. I do know when we called the OW together that morning she was NOT happy he was going to tell her exH. So, I really really in all of this DO believe that is the reason for the hesitation with calling the exH. After discussing it with me, he made the call with no problem. Also, if the EP is in place that he is 100% accountable with his time, how would he get away to be with her IF somehow she flew in here for a visit?

I don't trust him for ONE SECOND obviously and I think there is a lot more truth to come out as he remembers things (and he does... everyday...OUCH.) but I do think the one thing I do believe is the affair is not going on anymore and hasn't been inappropriate between them since Aug. 2009.

But, maybe I'm the dummy here and the joke is on me?

Real easy. The only way you can account for his time is to go by what he tells you. He can tell you anything he wants. Waywards do it all the time. And of course, he is free to contact her every day via phone and internet. It's real easy. So, I am not convinced in the least the affair is over. In fact, his adverse reaction to telling her husband told me there was something probably still going on.

Amy, how can he be 100% accountable if you have no access to his work phone or computer? You are not there with him. There are no extraordinary precautions at his workplace. That is where his affairs have mostly taken place. What precautions are in place there that would prevent him from conducting an emotional affair?

Amy, I just want to keep reality at the forefront here. The environment that led to your husbands affairs has not changed. Nothing has changed. He can still conduct his affairs at work.


Condition = not changed



Condition = not changed

The conditions that facilitated his affairs has not changed. He is also free to call anyone and they can call him without detection.

Yeah he is working on seeing if they can get his phone records so I could have access to those whenever I wanted. He has an e-mail out to the right dept and we hope to hear back soon.

When he isn't at work, I do know where he is at all times and 99.9% of the time he has a little one with him so that makes me not wonder either. He calls me from his work number 15min after he leaves the house for work. (that is how long his commute is) and then I've always gotten him on his work number when I've tried calling there since D-Day. If he doesn't answer right away and is on another call, he calls back within a couple of min. He also calls when he's leaving and is home within 15min as well. He has his 2 therapy appts in which he calls when he is leaving and our therapist yells hi in the background and I see the billing for it on our insurance statements that come in the mail. All of the rest of the time if he isn't with me, he has little kids with him. At work he has only a certain number of leave hours that I am starting to keep track of so it would be not impossible, but difficult to leave without someone knowing and him not charging his time.

The only time I don't trust what he's doing is at work since the internet issue still hasn't been solved and the phone either. He is working on it......I'll keep you updated.

Amy - understand Schlag is responsible for this. Yes the OWH's may retaliate. He wouldn't have anything to retaliate on if there was no adultery.

Many BS's want to get the kids away from toxic people. OWH may now try and get more custody or CS from her with this information. Ultimately this is Schlags and his to own 100%.

If he loses his job because OWH decides to interfere, then know that is a consequence to Schlag's adultery.

The one thing I noticed throughout this forum is more often than not Adultery ends up destroying everything in its path. At least 75% of all waywards (those who commit adultery) end up losing everything. Very few walk away with their previous lives intact. Most lose it all ... job, family, respect, money, etc.

update?

Hey, Amy,

I'm not sure this quest for phone records is really a valuable use of time and energy.

I understand you have some questions you'd like Schlag to answer, and you're not satisfied with his answers.

The fact is that for some of these questions, we here on this site can tell you more accurately what Schlag did, and why, than he can himself! Or Dr. Harley.

Some food for thought, from poster Doormat_No_More:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2548148#Post2548148
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2547862#Post2547862
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2542303#Post2542303

Schlag is slipping right on back into liar mode at the moment, in my opinion.

Very good links Markos.

Amy, I'm sure he at least "THOUGHT" he loved her at the time.

My husband admits he did but cant even understand why he thought that he did. She is nothing he looks for but she was filling a gap in his needs so much so fast that he thought he was head over hills.

It is like being high on crack. When you are high you love it, but when you sober up you are like "HUH?" It is the same dynamic.

Not true. In fact, it's more probable (using the Love Bank concept) that he had feelings of Romantic Love, and either didn't know it, or didn't know why.

The Love Bank explains that easily.

Remember that, utilizing the Love Bank concept, when we reach the Romantic Love (or intimacy) threshold, or dip below it into conflict or withdrawal, we don't often notice it until well after the threshold has been passed.

This is even more substantial for people who have no idea of the concepts.

Amy, How are you and schlag doing? Are you back home yet?

CV

Amy - if you are thinking of dating, can we have a talk?

This situation may go from tragic to horrific if you are dating.

Any chance we can get an update and discuss this?

Yeah I was concerned to hear this too, Amy. We know the pain you are trying to heal from and it makes you very vulnerable.

Divorce Shlag if you want, but take super good care of YOU. Girlfriends, parties, massages, pedicures, whatever.

You dont need to rush into dating to show Shlag youre serious. Just tell him you are serious.

I'm here. Yes, we have filed and the divorce should be final in May. I have joined a dating site for many reasons. I DO want to date...not sure how soon or what will happen. I can choose to date my STBXH also if I wish, but right now I don't want to do that. I don't want to recover my marriage. I'm just trying to focus on me and having fun, being with friends, and doing my own thing...if that involves chatting with some guys that are interesting and that I might want to have coffee with then I think that is fine.

I'm still in a horrific amount of pain even though it doesn't show from the outside very often. I'm going through some crazy denial I think because when the thoughts of him with other women enter my head, I unintentionally push them out so I don't die from the pain. A part of me is happier though since I'm not constantly dealing with the worry that he has had an affair or trying to see if I could trust him, or picking up our marriage over and over again from fights we would have. I just hung in there far too long and I'm quite happy to be out of the terribleness (is that a word? haha) of it all. Life is much less stressful in that regard and it's nice to not have to worry about everything I was going through. Looking back- it was much more unhealthy than I let myself realize. Friends and family voiced their concerns often and I never knew if/when it was going to be bad enough to just get out. NOW I do and one of the first things I said to my best friend on D-DAY was "Well, at least there isn't any gray area any more." I know this is the right decision.

It does get better. Denial, anger, bargaining. Get used to all the stages of grief. You will go through them all. But you will come out the other side,promise.



Yes. You were betrayed.



Yes, me too! It is a relief, kind of like reaching the shore after a ship wreck.



Divorce is your right. Happiness is your right.

Now I'm going to be a pain though ok?

I am a betrayed spouse. I was left for the other woman. I was left in a swirling vortex of pain. You would have thought that I could not even have considered dating right? Wrong. I checked out a few dating sites. I did a bit of RL flirting.

Fine, right? Certainly no one in my family or circle would object.

The problem was, I quickly realised I ha no judgement. I realised that any guy I met would seem much more wonderful than he really was. Why? Because compared to the last cheater, to the horror of surviving an A, EVERYONE seems fun and great. Its the comparison effect.

Just some food for thought. May is not very far away. Why not get some needs met from family and friends? Guys can wait until the 'horrific amount of pain' fades, surely?

Take care though. I mean plan lots of care for you! Daily x

You're in no mental condition to date, Amy, quite apart from the fact that you're still married. You are not in a position to make good judgements about which men to date. Also, you are not recovered from your betrayal and so are not in any position to be a good partner for a new man.

You are not being fair to yourself and you are not being fair to new men. You are also setting a horrible example to your children, causing them harm in addition to what they are going through from the breakdown of their family.

I think you know that this is the wrong thing to do, but it makes you feel better temporarily. You need to stop.

Amy, it saddens me for your children that you have decided to also become a wayward when there father has made that choice for them.

I am totally against you dating. It is WRONG to date while married. It is ADULTERY. What kind of lessons are you teaching you children?

I am OUTRAGED that you would come on a MARRIAGE BUILDERS website and talked so casually about "dating" while you are still married. It is extremely offensive and already WAYWARD.

Dating before the divorce is FINAL is adultery, Amy.

I think if you were really doing that just for you, you would not be rubbing it in Schlag's face. Knock it off. Stop doing it, stop talking to HIM about it, you are going to get yourself in a worse mess just trying to prove something to Schlag.

Go heal, with good friends, not the predators you are likely to meet if you begin dating while still married.

Agree with Scotland and SC.

Married means...still married. It doesn't matter if it's filed or that it "should" be final in May. Mine was supposed to be final this month. I don't think it will be for a couple more months yet.

Joining a dating site is completely ABSURD. Do you understand what a confusing and difficult time your children have ahead for them? Where the heck are your priorities?

Not to mention that ANY man that would date a married woman is not a man you would want to date anyway...

CWMIs not kidding. You would not believe the stuff seemingly nice guys think they can get away with when they sense a women is in pain and vulnerable. And thats when you're not even out there! If you go out dating purposefully you might as well ring the dinner bell for the vultures.

Honestly, I was looking for words to write before reading this. It is never fine to date while married. The fine posters here are correct. Aside from furthering the damage to yourself, you are definitely damaging your children.


Amy, now more than ever, you will need to be a model for your children of what is right and good. They are going to be examining you over the next X number of years to see what kind of person left dad for what he did.

Please don't show them you are a hypocrite. Show them you are a woman of virtue.

CV

As a mom to many small children, all I can say is they need their mom more than 24/7. My D-day is fifteen months now, and my kids are just starting to get back to their rooms. I just finished nursing not to long ago, and the baby wants mommy still.

My kids are very confused. Miss daddy all the time, and aren't sure if up is down, or is left is right.

They want their family. I cannot give them a whole family, but I can give them me. That is all they need right now.

Men of the caliber you need will never date a woman until she is divorced.

Read TexasSun, faithful follower, sexymamabear for what happens when you mix adultery with personal recovery from a wayward husband.

I have joined a dating site for many reasons. I DO want to date. I don't want to recover my marriage. I'm just trying to focus on me and having fun, being with friends, and doing my own thing

Dday #2 - 15 October
Thread Opened - 25 October
Game over - 08 December

We would frickin' HAMMER a BH for bailing out and planning a WAYWARD escape within two months! But somehow the responses to a BW are manifested as "pleas" and "suggestions" ???

...chatting with some guys that are interesting and that I might want to have coffee with then I think that is fine...I know this is the right decision.

Schlag is suddenly uninteresting? He doesn't like coffee? Fastest settling-in of a wayward fog on record! Pathetic!

(I know - more "peckishness", MB!)

**edit**

I take personal offense to this. I would have posted the same thing to a BH as I did to Amy. I also would like to point out that while I was not overly harsh(as is not my style), I did get my point across.

Where is YOUR OUTRAGE post, huh?

Amy - summary of what's been pointed out:
1. As a betrayed woman, when you go out onto the dating scene, expect predators who pick up on your hurt and will exploit that, whether you are married or not, until the hurt is gone and that vulnerability is also gone. You need far more time than a week; you will need YEARS before you are legitimately ready to date anyone!

2. As a MOTHER, you cannot add to your children's pain by bringing other men into their lives, vicariously or openly. A mother who is setting her heart aflutter by reading about/texting with/talking to other men does not have her mind on her children's emotional needs right now.

3. As a soon to be ex wife, the blatant communication IN FRONT OF YOUR HUSBAND reeks of revenge revenge revenge. Your intentions are not self-protective; they are out to wound him with a vengeance. And while he deserves it, YOU DO NOT DESERVE THE CONSEQUENCES YOU ARE SIGNING UP FOR!

Here are some of those consequences:
a. Exploited sexual relationships with a revolving door of men (how do you feel about yourself being used for sex?)
b. STDs
c. Wrecking the life of another man who you are not free to fall in love with until you've healed from the last broken heart.
d. Wrecking the life of those you still love and those that man may love.

Throw on the brakes hon. You are way too raw to handle anything but your children and the process of deconstructing your current relationship.

How? Because it feels good?

Guess how many other people have started down the road of adultery because it feels good.

Another poster was right. You're out for vengeance. You're out to inflict as much pain as you can, and you're enjoying it.

So, the BW is now rolling in the same mud that her WH got filthy in. Why would you, a woman who understands the heart-wrenching grief of being the victim of an affair, intentionally inflict the same injury on another living human being?

Not even Schlag deserves that. No one does.

God help your children.

With the largest being to inflict pain on your wayward husband.

Hope that works out for you...

Amy,

The reason you join a dating site is to date. Or have I been married and coddled away too long?

For someone who prides herself on honesty, I honestly have to say I don't see it here.

Amy - think about it - you think you hurt now?

Try going down this path a bit further. Try looking at your children's faces who need every scrap of care you can give them down that path.

As a daughter of infidelity I can tell you what those eyes will tell you - but not while you're wayward. You couldn't hear it. You can't even begin to think of their pain, can you? It's all about you. Your pain. You're justified.

But are they deserving of that cruelty?

I can promise you that you have not begun to hurt. Run from this site if you will. but the hurt's going with you. We're not the source of that pain. Any additional pain you feel to what your STBX caused you is self-inflicted. But I hope you wake up to feel the pain of regret for your children. I hope you wake up before you do that.

STOP!

Of course you don't. She is now wayward herself. No wayward is honest.

Prisca, I meant I know getting a divorce is the right decision.

And wow... apparently I'm very misunderstood. Even Schlag said so himself after reading these replies. I don't feel the need to defend myself further. I know who I am and what I stand for and I'm comfortable with that.

Amy, all waywards feel misunderstood here. So you know you are wayward? You know what that stands for having been on the receiving end? And you are comfortable with that?

Amy, I know the pain. I have entertained the thought of dating, finding comfort in the attention of another man. The whole "if you can't beat em join em mentality".

But I deserve a better man and relationship than that. No way will I increase any chance that I will be back here on SAA in years to come. No way. I will wait until I am fully available for a man who respects marriage and all it represents.

That is so very sad You are already foggy - this is wayward tongue. What part of your wayward behaviour have we misunderstood? What justifies your choice of speeding towards a full-blown affair? How is this okay? Why are you divorcing, the true motives, please?

I'm sorry, but I cannot figure you out anymore

You understand, dont you Amy

that THIS



Contradicts THIS



No one is saying you cant date after your divorce is final and you are in a position to meet nice men. Men who would not go near a married woman. But you would have to be certain that Shlag is history for you to do that.

You cant keep him dangling on one string while you line up revenge affairs (and you are rubbing his nose in it). It is getting needs met in two places - just like a wayward. It also gives a horrible message to your children about marriage and their parents' respect for one another if they date each other AND others.

I'm hearing a lot of 'just coffee' here and just 'interesting'. If coffee and conversation is what you're after, join a book club. No it wont make Shlag as jealous, no it wont get you male admiration (hopefully, until you're ready) but it will give you some fun things to do, new friends, an opportunity to heal and some dignity of how you behave when under fire.

How long has it been since D-Day, Amy? Come on. You are letting pain and vengeance make your decisions for you.

I agree with all indie has pointed out. Amy, your pain seems to be giving you a sense of entitlement to have an affair. Very foggy thinking.

A very large theme in the Schlag/Amalynn saga is the unquestionable honesty, loyalty, and virtue of Amalynn. The actions described between this and Schlag's thread contradict this theme.

Several strong points have been made why what you're doing is wrong. They're all correct.

It strikes me that what you're doing is vindictive in nature. You're flaunting your web site forays, communications, and new suitors in your husband's face.

I understand it, but I understand it in the same way I understand it when I watch a pack of dogs turn on an injured member of its own pack, tearing it to pieces. It's a horrific thing to watch, has no place in the precepts of civilization and humanity, and is something in which I feel compelled to intervene.

Eric sought out self-gratification in a way that was extremely cruel to you. You're now seeking a level of self-gratification by being cruel to Eric. It won't work. It's only placing you in the same category as him, extends the hurt and cruelty to anyone you become involved with, and severely compounds the negative impact your family break-up has on your children.

You are choosing to crawl into the pig pen to wrestle the pigs. You will find yourself covered in pig excrement and having left a string of very happy pigs in your wake. There is no other possible outcome.

P.S. As ugly as it is to watch, Schlag is fervently working through the sewage that is his past life to try to build himself into the type of man he can be, and should have always been for you and your children. Picture a day in the not-too-distant future where you've both changed, and you are no longer worthy of him.

It could happen . . .

Not to mention that this "self gratification" will quickly turn to self-abuse.

Amy, of we have misunderstood something (and I don't think we have), show us. What are you trying to accomplish by being on a dating site? Of course Eric will be with you on this:

1) he is desperate for approval from you

2) He is still struggling to see things in a non-fogged way himself

3) I would bet he is seeing this as an opportunity for an "in"

Do you know you are defending yourself the same way as a wayward?

Do you know that counselors, the good the poor and the bad ones all know and say that it takes one year to heal after a relationship has ended before one is ready to date?

Do you know that you are still married (you act as if your not, denial, fog?)?
A question within a quote. On a roll.

Do you know that you are still married?

Do you know that a man that is willing to date a married woman is not marriage material for he is a man without honor?

Do you know the damage you're doing your COM by dating while married?

Do you know that your actions are teaching your COM to be cheaters just as mom did?

Please share your answers.

I'm fine with this decision.


I would advise you not to trust your VERY wayward Schlag to be the arbiter over issues of integrity.
He has no experience with integrity.
He is an infant when it comes to integrity. An infant is selfish and without morals or scruples.

Following Schlag's advice/opinions is not too smart.


You need to think again.
Instead of defending yourself, think again. Think some more. Analyze without emotion. Make moral not emotional decisions.
When you have Schlag and all his experience with deceit and poor decisions in your corner, and everyone else is asking you to STOP AND THINK .... something is amiss.


Doing the morally correct thing is often uncomfortable.
Doing what feels good is comfortable.
When your particular heinous WH was comfortable, he was making grave errors and exhibiting vastly poor judgment.

All I am asking is that YOU stop and think.
If you know who you are, then be honest about it.
If you are dating while married, you are not honoring your vows.
Which makes you what?

If/when you "chat" with men on a dating site, do you tell them "I am a married woman."
Or, do you tell them something less honest?

Any man who wants to see you after you tell the truth "I am a married woman." ..... is a rat and a louse. Nice work.

I agree. Continuing to defend yourself is unproductive. It is pretty much never productive here to try to defend yourself to the forum at large and persuade us of something. It'll usually never help your life in any tangible way.

Hoping for happiness for you.


Frankly while that sounds deeply spiritual or something, I think it's going to be completely irrelevant to your future happiness in life.

I don't have to understand you to know that what you're doing is immoral, destructive, and evil.

Revenge Affairs are really the worst kind ... Schlag was stupid, but you are vengeful. You're in it to intentionally, craftily inflict pain. This is evident by your rubbing his nose in it.

Divorce the man. I would. But this vengeful, evil thing you are doing has got to stop. Stop rolling in the same mud that caused you so much pain.

Especially around here where you KNOW what it takes to survive an affair(even only personal recovery) and NO WHERE does it say to become a wayward yourself.

2 years into Plan B, I am still married and NOT dating. 2 YEARS. I am not going to get a divorce just so I can start dating, but when I am ready to be divorced, I will file. I still won't be ready to date even then, since I'll still need to heal.

Since what you will experience with these men is adultery, you remember the statistics on how often they fail right?

Stop being so intentionally cruel.

Posted about this in my thread.

Amy,

I wonder if you will get this note? The reason why so many people are advising against a new relationship is not only because you are still married but you are probably not ready yet.

You've just been totally traumatized and the people you're attracted to and who are attracted to you right now are not what you're going to want after you've had time for personal recovery.

It comes up on these boards even. Some of the BS's run out and find someone new and come back to update in 6/9 months saying how miserable they are, or that the relationship blew up and caused more problems.

You have four little ones depending on you to take care of yourself. Please do it! With time, you'll find that you're ready and able to create something really special with someone worthy of you and the kids.

What you're attempting now looks like a combo of escapist behavior (a way to dull the pain) and a bit of revenge on Shlag. Wait until you are ready for LOVE.

I should have said DEFINITELY not ready. Protect those kids and find nourishing fun...fun that helps you be strong and healthy for you and your kids. Not some silly world of flirt, fantasy and sex.

Putting the moral issue aside of dating while still married for a second,

one thing you don't seem to acknowledge is how vulnerable you are to falling in love and developing intense feelings for someone fairly quickly while you are out "having fun" and "chatting with guys"...and ending up with the WRONG person.

I think the first good looking guy that treats me well, acts protective of me (opposite of my serial cheating STBX) and meets some of my ENs that I am craving like affection, I am going to probably develop feelings for very quickly. So I know that I need to take it slow and WAIT until I am in a better place and have had a chance to heal.

And if you don't think yourself at risk...it just means you are even more at risk, because you are not going to be careful.

And also wanted to point out that this doesn't look good for you if it is to come out in court, should any issues arise with visitation, custody, etc. I have had two attys now and consulted with a third. They all advised me that while the courts do not care that much when a BS cites adultery in the D, it can be used to demonstrate POOR JUDGEMENT and not acting in the children's best interests on the part of a parent who dates while still married....as it should!

SusieQ,
I hope that will be used in my case even though it's hard to do in my state.

Well, 3 years later we see the result of your plan: an open marriage with confused kids.

When I was separated every decent man in 100 miles gave me a wide berth to grieve and be with my female friends and my family.

I don't see how it can be considered 'fine' to ring the dinner bell for every nearby cretin who sees a broken marriage as a sexual opportunity.