I think I've reached the end of the road.�

For about a year I think I've been kidding myself that we've been in recovery. We've had many short spells of genuinely good times together, but it always ends up reverting to what feels like me being battered into submission (figuratively) as I'm the one that wants our marriage to work. WW only wants it to work if she gets her way despite the pain it may cause for me or others. �

I think it comes down to a problem with implementing POJA. Ww refuses any kind of councilling or even reading about fixing relationships. Instead I have explained to her the principles of POJA so that we can help with recovering a good relationship. She says she's fine with that but in reality, there is no leeway, no negotiation. �

My example of this is this Christmas. �My family invited us both around at some point over Christmas. They specifically wanted us all to meet up and have a good time, including WW. Despite being invited and having a huge number of presents bought for her, she refused. �I tried implementing POJA. Perhaps if we don't go around there, we could go out for a meal or do something a bit less, a halfway house so she can see my family want to build bridges and have her as part of the family. No. Instead she said that I should go around there myself and give the presents we had �bought for my family. I really didn't want to go around there on my own. My family tried contacting to smooth�things over a bit. �She felt too much under pressure and refused. We agreed (to my dislike) that I go around alone. It was WW choice and I respected her decision not to come. �Admittedly it was great to see them as I miss them a lot. It would have been much better if Ww was there.

When I returned, a few hours later, WW locked me out. She said she wants a divorce and said I should never have left her alone at christmas. I was shocked. We had agreed everything in advance. It was her suggestion that I go around to basically deliver presents on my own. I eventually got back in. She won't even sit in the same room as me. I try to put my arm around her - I'm pushed away. �I said it was unfair as we agreed that I would see my family alone. I try to be nice but I'm pushed away and shouted at.

Despite a year of 'taking it on the chin' and what seems like giving without receiving (a lot, but not all of the time), I feel like I'm back at square one. If I told any friends or family the truth of the situation they would tell me to get rid of her. I find myself in many ways hating her, but strangely I love her still and want it to work. � Please, if anyone has advice for where they think I'm going wrong, please tell me. Maybe I was trying to include POJA too early? I think maybe I'm expecting to much. When should I give up and just split? I'm losing my family, I've lost most of my friends, I feel like I'm giving it all up for a cheating, untrustworthy selfish monster that holds me to ransom every time something isn't quite going her way. How can I break this cycle? I'm willing to persevere.�

Well that's it, chase her around. She is the one who is behaving badly. Your wife is doing this to manipulate you. She hasn't changed anything. Wake up.

Ok so I can see she's manipulating me because she has the power to. If I'm the only one willing to genuinely try, she holds all the cards. If I want to make her try I need to boost her LB. but by doing that I'll be manipulated the whole way. It's a vicious circle.....

How much UA time are you both having? I am not sure if this is waywardness or just her own selfishness that has been part of her character make-up all these years.

The key issue is she needs to be active in your recovery. Her behavior sounds like a spoiled teenager. If you want to keep trying, then I encourage you to up your UA time.

I would also plan to get ready for Plan B. Dr. Harley suggests Plan A for upto two years once NC is established if you are male. You don't want to drain your entire love bank either, so you have to know when to draw the line.

You stated you still have love for her. This is good. Try and give her the best Plan A of your life, and then get ready for Plan B. Your timeline will be your timeline.

She needs to woman up and start acting like a 32 year old. Was this behavior part of your dating relationship? I say it is more of her character versus the affair.

Thanks, I think you're right about UA. I'll try and boost that. We have definitely been spending more time recently, but I need to make the most of the Christmas break. As for the spoilt teenager thing, she has always been demanding and stroppy when things don't go her way but it used to be balanced out by huge acts of thoughtfulness and kindness, not just to me, but towards everyone. In the past I never would have described her as selfish, now is a different story. Recently she has been trying to manipulate me to disown my family and break ties, I thought we had come to an agreement but it was all just to cause a fuss, I find it difficult to imagine she deliberately planned that, but that is how she is acting.

I've already started looking for flats. The fact that many can take 2yrs doesnt break my hope, but actually makes me wanna stick at it more. I'm only a year in, or just over. I'm at the early stages of just thinking about plan B, I'll keep that up.

Thanks for the guidance. At least I feel like I have something to try...

Andy, are you absolutely sure she is not having an affair?

I read your older threads and it seems to me that she has been in this foggy state from the very beginning. She and OM are not working together, no? What have you done for snooping?

Thread 1 Thread 2

In addition to MrsREcon's question, why didn't she want to go see your family on Christmas? What is her reason?

First of all, yes, please tell us about what happened with your W and seeing OM "occassionally" at work. You later said NC had been established but didn't say whether she left or he left or what happened. So I am curious about that. Because she does still sound foggy.



Next,

What EPs was she willing to implement? Was she willing to send the NC letter? Was she willing to change her phone number/email etc? Was she willing to be transparent?

Lots of people seem to think they can skim over this step, but (aside from affairproofing your M) it gives a good picture of whether the WS is serious about R or not...

Andy, when was the last time your wife saw the OM?

Tough, I don't want anyone to get confused by this statement. DrH suggests Plan A when there is an ACTIVE affair, which means NC isn't established. And then, he suggests that the BH do a combination of Plan A and Plan B for a maximum of 2 years after exposure of the A. Men are typically able to handle a more prolonged Plan A than a woman, but it can be taxing on them as well, and will most definitely drain any remaining LB$. Even they are suggested to do Plan A for about 6 months. That would leave about 18months of Plan B. When there is NC, the couple should enter RECOVERY and the plans for that which are about POJA, PORH, EP's, etc

Really appreciate that mrs recon. You're right, the state she is in at the moment is total denial that any of her behaviour might be upsetting or wrong in any way, just like a recently discovered WW. But OM is long off the scene and has moved away. I keep an eye on emails, calls, texts etc but there is no evidence that she has been cheating again. I think it's more related to her paranoia that she is convinced my family are out to ruin her life, they even bought her christmas presents and asked her personally around for Christmas but she's still convinced. Granted, they don't get on like they used to, but it's far from a malicious campaign!

Totay was another terrible day. After saying in texts and to my face that she actually preferred if I went around to see my family without her (see first post) she complained to all her family that I left her alone this Christmas, the worst time of year to do such a terrible thing! I feel so bad about it, but in my attempt to please everyone, and with her full agreement (that she still insists she never gave despite a text on my phone showing it in black and white), I thought it was my only option. My family were upset not to see her and found it all a bit weird.

Today she continued laying in to me but I've been trying not to take the bait. I refuse to fight. BUT I had a moment of weakness this morning in my desperation and shouted at her, called her a liar. Damn I need to toughen up and resist it more, however I did unreservedly apologise, but it wasnt accepted so I've gone even further backwards today. What an idiot I am. Damn. She tried instigating fights the whole day after that but i resisted and said i dont want to upset her, i want to help her feel happy again, and that im not going to argue wih her in the nicest possible way. I just got More claims of 'We just don't get on, the only way out is death or divorce' !

Sooooo hopefully tomorrow I don't mess up again. Finding it hard.

Andy, are you under the impression that the POJA means FORCING your desires on your wife? Your wife did not want to go see your family and she told you that. So you wrested an GRUDGING agreement from her for you to go see them alone and leave her alone on Christmas.

YOU violated the POJA and owe her an apology. You should have never gone to see your folks. The default position in the POJA is to do nothing.

Not only did you violate the POJA, but you then treated her with her disrespectful judgments because of her failure to comply with you dicates. POJA means a mutually enthusiastic decision, NOT that you force your will on her.

*YOU* are creating incompatibility and hostility in your marriage.

That's what I got from this situation as well

Your wife told you NO and what did you do? You badgered her and didn't even stop there. You had your family call her to badger her too. And you wonder why you are fighting? FOR REAL?

No wonder your wife hates Marriage Builders. It has been completely misrepresented. I would tell you to go to hell too if I thought the MB meant that you force me to agree with you and/or beat grudging agreements out of me.

This is because you aren't using the POJA and she feels hopeless now. The one program that could have changed your marriage has been misused to the point that she is no longer willing.

Andy, I would just accept that you tried it on your own and it didn't work. I was not able to implement the POJA in my own marriage either and had to learn it from Harley. When do it yourself doesn't work, it is time to escalate it up and get professional help. You are destroying your marriage over your inability to negotiate. You would be wise to get professional help.

Well guys, im glad you can identify where I'm going wrong, and I think youre right that I misunderstood exactly how POJA works, I misunderstood that the default position is 'do nothing'. In this situation that would have totall alienated my family but I've read before - if that is what it takes, your marriage comes first.

However, what I thought I did have was an enthusiastic agreement. WW said that the thought of going around there the day after Christmas made her feel sick. I said OK fine, I'm not going to force you. I told my family, that we wouldn't be coming over. My mum was real upset about it and tried talking to WW and reassure her. My dad also tried calling to reassure her that they don't hate her etc. but she wouldn't answer.

It was WW suggestion that I go around on my own. She has suggested this in the past but I have never gone as I'd much prefer that if anyone sees us, they see us together, I hate setting a precedent that it's ok to see just me and not WW, I don't want people thinking they can cut her out and get away with it. In this situation though, my mum was so upset not to see us at Christmas, WW exact words were.....(pasted from a text)
...."If I go around there I'll feel sick and uncomfortable. Im happy for you to go. I really doesn't bother me if you do! I don't feel like you're choosing. In fact I'll be happy because I don't have to deal with the weirdness and your parents will be happy that they see you."

She kissed me as I left, I went there and came back after a few hours.

It seemed like going around was the only compromise that wouldn't alienate my family permanently. I've done that with our old friends already. Although I have to say I was personally not enthusiastic about it, it was a horrible afternoon without her there. Felt so weird.

So, I hope that describes it better, I certainly didn't badger her to let me go around on my own. I did ask her loads to go together as to start off with she wasn't sure whether or not to go, so I let it lie until closer to the time for her to make a decision. With hindsight I think now that I wouldn't have gone. It caused more trouble. Also, its good to knows a decault decision with POJA, to do nothing. We had a good Christmas day together, but going around to my families house the next day just put us back to square one. And now we are struggling again.

Having said all that though, I do get the other side of the situation - I should back off and at no time seem pushy when trying to implement POJA. It should be more negotiated andnow never a 'pursuasion'. That way WW will be far less likely to change her mind on any decisions that she makes too.

In this case, I now think i was too pushy to start off with.

Do you think that's right? The trouble is, I'm worried this is going to lead to me being trampled on, but we'll see...

One more thing, just to answer a few of the questions made earlier:

NC was established Oct 2010. She no longer sees OM at all. I have been snooping but theres no evidence of a continuation. OM left the company and moved house to another town. Last I heard from OMs wife, he'd moved back in and they were trying again.

NC letter was sent, I was given passwords etc. phone lock taken off, all questions answered. I felt like we were in recovery for a large part of the last year, but have slipped way way back with recent events and struggling with POJA etc. And generally feeling like I'm not in an equal relationship.

Okay, I may be wrong with this, but - do you also know what she has been doing online? Does OM have a FB account? People continue being foggy with only following their fantasies by catching up their lives online.

As for POJA - read the concept again, call the radio show where you can get good advice for free. We tend to do wrong decisions in the spirit of "blood is thicker than..." This concept hurts marriages.

Does it look like that agreement was too "enthusiastic" now? No, it was not enthusiastic, it was done under duress because you pressured her. You even had your mother call her. It was a GRUDGING agreement and now you see what you get when you try to FORCE your dictates on your spouse. It's not pretty, is it?


But you alienated your wife as a result.

Andy, get help using this program. What you are doing is causing incompatibility and if you don't get it this far out, you likely aren't going to get it on your own. I would sign up for the online program.

She always has the option of changing her mind with any agreement. So do you.

Andy - this is one of the big reasons POJA needs to be taught to BOTH people by a third party.

Had your wife known from Jennifer Chalmers or Steve Harley, or from Dr. Harley on the radio show or in the class, exactly the nature of POJA, she would have been able to feel like she had a choice but that her choice didn't trump your choice.

The way POJA has been used has not been ENTHUSIASTIC. Instead, it's been twisted into an idea of LOSE LOSE.

POJA is the ultimate WIN-WIN when done properly. You are moved to ask an entirely different set of questions. Instead of compromise - which is you win at her expense, or she win at your expense, you find common ground to make it possible for you to both win.

I see the enmeshment with your family as a threat to your marriage. If you cannot stand up to your parents and say, "wife and I are doing something different this year." and let that stand no matter what manipulations your parents pull, then your wife doesn't feel protected and honored by you. Instead, you threw her under the bus with your mother driving the bus right over her. It was not respectful. It was blaming her for you not having the big brass ones to stand up to your family and protect her.

POJA might have looked like this - wife - I see that you are set against going to see my family. I'm not enthusiastic about that. What do you propose we do instead that will make Christmas Day more appealing for both of us? And when would you then be enthusiastic about visiting my family as an alternative?" And you negotiate until you come to an agreement that you are both enthusiastic about. Then when your mom calls it's "We have decided to do something else. We will come visit on _____________ day - sorry to miss you today." and take no more disrespect toward your wife from your family.

That's what POJA looks like rather than as a weapon to be used on a non-compliant/non-agreeing wife!

Thanks for the feedback guys. Melody, I agree completely, with hindsight it's easy to see now, I should have avoided any pressure at all.

I'm clearly not getting POJA right and I find it difficult to imagine how we can get it working without Ww willingly wanting to sign up to some sort of councilling whatever it is. But I guess the online programme would be a great start as I really don't think I can afford to get anything else wrong. I hope 2012 will be a much better year. Happy New Year everyone. Thanks again for all of the feedback, it means a hell of a lot that I have someone to talk to here no matter what.

Andy, learning the POJA was very hard for my H and I. We had to get help from Dr Harley in the MB program to get it. I would strongly suggest you do sign up for the online program. It is worth every penny and will make a huge difference in your marriage.

I agree the POJA was mismanaged, but this concerned me also.



This sounds like exposure was never done. Why not?

This could very well explain her foggy attittude, she never saw the A for what it was in the light of day, it is still a secret and she hasnt done anything wrong and has no amends to make, in her eyes.

She also wants to keep family at a distance in case they ever do find out the truth. The 'guilty secret' is still making her nuts. She is still justifying it too, I would imagine - bad place in the marriage, stress, blah blah.

Plus, getting on board with an MB plan for recovery is supposed to be a non negotiable condition of yours. People are advised to Plan B until this condition is met by the WS. Have you never insisted on this?

P O J A

The "BUYER's" agreement !!



POJA requires this question be asked

"How do you feel about what I would like to do?"

Decisions are to be made considering each other's feelings.

POJA forces you to be considerate especially when you don't feel like it

OK .... you've asked THE question "How would you feel about ...."

and this gets negotiation started ... and you realize the goal is enthusiastic agreement ... how do you arrive at that goal?




Guidelines for POJA

Guideline 1

Set ground rules to make negotiation pleasant and safe.

...Ground Rule 1 Try to be pleasant and cheerful throughout negotiations.

...Ground Rule 2 Put safety first. Don't make demands, show disrespect, or become angry when you negotiate, even if your partner makes demands, shows disrespect, or becomes angry with you.

...Ground Rule 3 If you reach an impasse and don't seem to be getting anywhere, or if one of you is starting to make demands, show disrespect, or become angry, stop negotiating and come back to the issue later.

~~~> In other words, do not succumb to the temptations of your Taker <~~~

Guideline 2

Identify the problem from both perspectives.

Very important point Harley makes ~~~> Most couples try to resolve a conflict without doing their homework. They don't fully understand the conflict itself, nor do they understand each other's perspectives. In many cases, they are not even sure what they really want or what they are enthusiastically willing to give.

Harley says

Respect is the key in this phase of negotiation.

It is extremely important to avoid trying to straighten each other out.

(~~~> OK .... anyone guilty of this raise your hand <~~~ *my hand is up*)

Guideline 3

Brainstorm with abandon

This is the creative part.

Look for mutually agreeable areas that will create compatability.


The goal is to please both of you.

Harley says

The secret to understanding your partner is to think like your partner's Taker thinks.

It's easy to appeal to your partner's Giver ~~~> if she really loves me, she'll let me do this. BUT, lasting peace must be forged with your partner's Taker, so your solutions must appeal to your partner's most selfish instincts. At the same time they must also appeal to your most selfish instincts.



VERY IMPORTANT POINT HERE***

Resist one type of solution that your Giver and Taker may suggest --- the I'll let you do what you want this time if you let me do what I want next time solution <~~~ That's the RENTER'S SOLUTION that encourages you to alternate sacrificing for each other.




POJA

What about addiction?



And,

Guideline 4

Choose the solution that meets the conditions of the Policy Of Joint Agreement --Mutual and enthusiastic agreement

~~~> regarding addiction <~~~

"But what can you do if you have agreed to follow the POJA, tried to negotiate for a mutually enthusiastic solution, and yet you or your partner keep behaving in a way that is objectionable to the other? This kind of thoughtless behavior may turn out to be an addiction "

"If one of you struggles with an addiction, you will find that the POJA simply cannot be followed until you have overcome the addiction."

"So if you have tried to follow my advice but can't seem to negotiate with each other regardless of how hard you try, addiction may be the culprit."
_________________________

POJA ... "It's not working"



Taken from the concepts part of MB site .....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Know what strikes me right off the bat looking at this list?

...Radical Honesty pretty much knocks conflict avoiders out !!!


Which brings me to a question ....

emotional honesty ... I don't think a couple can be successful in POJA negotiations without emotional honesty.

How can one POJA with an emotionally dishonest partner?

.... lest we forget ... a conflict avoider is emotionally dishonest ...

REMEMBER THE QUESTION THAT OPENS POJA

How would you feel about this .....


From this site regarding emotional honesty

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