Marriage Builders
Hi all. Hubby and I frequented this forum site seven years ago when hubby discovered my infidelity. Words cannot express how much the advise and the reading materials here help us. There were many times even a few years later that I thought my husband could not over come my betrayal. Through great perseverance, and working hard to be the kind of people we should be together, we were able to make the marriage last and be stronger than it ever was. I thank the people here and the Harleys for the support!

Now I have a question. My daughter and her husband have lived with us for the past year and a half. They've been married a little over a year. She asked him to leave this past Friday due to immature behavior (not working and playing video games all day). He left willingly and without a fuss. However, in the course of this emotionally turbulent episode, one of our mutual friends divulged that she has been having an affair with a married man who has children. I discovered who this man is, and he is another mutual friend. Or should I say he was a friend.

My daughter is 24 and this guy is in his 40's. To say I was livid is a major understatement. I caught her talking on the phone to him and confronted her, and she confessed. It was an extremely heated discussion. Apparently he'd called to find out how she was and comfort her after tossing her husband out.

She said they'd had sexual relations twice since April 2011, and although they aren't now, they still talk to each other because they have "feelings" for one another. She said they've both mutually decided to call it off, but from my perspective, if he is still calling her, then it is still going on at least emotionally.

I let a mutual friend know that I knew everything, and he begged me not to tell this low life worm's wife. I don't know his wife, but I can contact her on facebook, and I have her address. It seems macabre that I just sent them a Christmas card.

I told the mutual friend that I wouldn't tell his wife, but if he contacts my daughter again, there will be major hell to pay. My friend assured me there would be no more contact. She is on my cell phone bill and and I can see her call records.

The question running through my mind is should I get involved in this, or should I stay out of my daughter's business. I have had differing advice from a few confidantes.

We know this guy from the Renaissance Festival scene, and he propositioned me more than once this past spring. After telling him no each time, he stopped asking, probably because he was doing my daughter. If he propositioned me, and he got it on with her, it is only logical that he's probably getting some on the side with others.

It just doesn't sit well with me what this guy is doing to his wife and daughters. But, the other side of the coin is that if others at the Renaissance Festival knew about what happened with my daughter and this scumbag, she could be ostracized.

Also, if my daughter's soon to be ex-husband caught wind of this, it could bring major violence upon my house.

I'm not sure what to do.



Telling the truth is always the right thing to do. Of course you should tell his wife. Your daughter's husband should know, as well. Especially if he is under the wrong impression as to why his wife left him. People have the right to know the truth about their lives.

Please let these spouses know!
I get where you are coming from CWMI, but my daughter didn't kick her husband out because of the affair. She kicked him out because he is a lying, lazy, overbearing, emotionally and sometimes physically abusive bum.

I'd prefer soon to be ex-hubby never know. I cannot trust him not to try to stalk and kill her if he finds out.

I am considering how to tip his wife off without it coming back to me.



You are protecting cheaters from natural consequences. What did you learn last time you were here?

Anonymous tipping-off will not be effective. Too easy to spin. And you are wrong about your daughter's reasoning. She should have worked on her marriage, not had an affair with someone else's husband.

You sound way to wayward in your own thinkng right now. Does your husband know about this situation with your daughter?
This situation would seem to call for POJA. Is your husband still with you, or are you alone now?

Why would you enable this behavior, especially when you have first-hand knowledge of how damaging it is?

I absolutely would call his wife and tell her what's going on. Then I would call that POSOM and rain hell down on his head. How DARE he treat your daughter like dirt??? How do you stand for that???
Folks, my husband knows EVERYTHING! I do not keep anything from him anymore, and he is my closest friend. Do not think he is equally as angry. He tells me he is putting this box in the fridge because justice is best served cold.

Glove Oil, I explained at the beginning of this that I am still married after my own affair, and that we were able to weather the storm and become better partners than before hand. There are no issues in my own marriage.

CWMI, it is so easy to judge and say that someone should have done this or that, but you weren't in our shoes. My daughter's husband lied to hubby and I so many times that my head is spinning. Most of his lies did not come out until the last week. But now that the lies are out in the open, I feel betrayed by someone we were trying to help get a leg up. I want him out of her life, and out of ours. He will never live with us again.

I completely agree Maritalbliss. I don't want to enable the behavior! And, I do know how damaging it is. Maybe what is why this is so conflicting for me, as I have so many "friends" (notice the quotes) who are telling me that it is none of my business and to leave it alone, mostly because they are also the POSOM's friend. I am at this point where I really don't care what they think, and I think his wife should know. But, this all came out within the past five days, and I am still reeling and off the charts emotional over it.

Both hubby and I have gotten little sleep since Thursday. I want to make sure that whatever I do, it is well thought out. Please stop with the recriminations, all. I need sane advice at a time when I'm not exactly thinking clearly.
Originally Posted by CeeJayKay
...Glove Oil, I explained at the beginning of this that I am still married after my own affair, and that we were able to weather the storm and become better partners than before hand. There are no issues in my own marriage. ...
Understood, thanks for the clarification. I saw that you'd mentioned your hubby at the outset. I just was struck that his views weren't mentioned in the rest of your original description, & so I hadn't wanted to assume anything...
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Please stop with the recriminations, all. I need sane advice at a time when I'm not exactly thinking clearly.
My suggestion to stop enabling the affair IS sane advice. The crazy thing would be for you to allow this scum to continue to use your daughter.

And you've been on this site - you know we recommend exposure to kill affairs. Because it works.

Also - we recommend exposure without warning. Threatening OM to tell his wife will simply drive the affair underground, and they'll be more careful to stay off your radar. Being able to check phone records is a valuable tool, but will be worthless if POSOM buys her an affair phone.
Originally Posted by CeeJayKay
I told the mutual friend that I wouldn't tell his wife, but if he contacts my daughter again, there will be major hell to pay. My friend assured me there would be no more contact. She is on my cell phone bill and and I can see her call records.


Why would you do something so cruel to this poor woman? Why would you ebanble the affair to live on in secrecy, hurting your daughter.

This guy is a professional con artist and he doesnt want his tricks to be generally known.

Woman up. Expose quickly and without warning.
I am puzzled why you even asked us this question about exposure to the other man's wife. .. If MB is one thing, ITS CONSISTENT in its concept of exposure.

Thats like walking into a AA meeting and asking "Any of y'all wanna have a drink with me?"


ditto. I was puzzled too.
Originally Posted by CeeJayKay
I let a mutual friend know that I knew everything, and he begged me not to tell this low life worm's wife. I don't know his wife, but I can contact her on facebook, and I have her address. It seems macabre that I just sent them a Christmas card.

What a dreadful position to be in, but the right thing to do would be to pick up the phone today and call the woman. She needs to know what is going on behind her back so she can protect herself from your daughter and her husband. I would also insist your daughter tell her own husband the full story in your presence. His lack of maturity does not entitle her to have affairs.

Your daughter has a serious problem, and I know if my son were doing the same thing, that there would be hell to pay. I would never, ever allow my son to get away with behaving like a scumbag. It is not in your daughters best interest to help her hide her secret. Exposing it helps her be a better person.

Originally Posted by CeeJayKay
And, I do know how damaging it is. Maybe what is why this is so conflicting for me, as I have so many "friends" (notice the quotes) who are telling me that it is none of my business and to leave it alone, mostly because they are also the POSOM's friend

Ironically, you will be the true "friend" of the POSOM by exposing him! These other people are not friends, but partners in crime.

CJ, another thing that ocurred to me is that after you tell his wife, you might want to consider calling that weasel up and telling him to leave your daughter alone. I know I would want to do that.
CeeJayKay,

The advice you are getting, and will continue to get regarding your DDOW will be almost identical to what we would advise a BS.

1. Expose to ALL parties, and most especially the OM's BW.
2. Allow the natural consequences of the A (i.e. loss of respect from Ren Fair buddies) to unfold. Do not shield the waywards from their own consequences, which they already created.
3. Do not support DDOW in any tangible way while the A is on - this is financial, allowing her to stay in your house, anything you do for her needs to stop.
4. If she persists, go into Plan B. You do not need waywardness in your home or in your lives. She can experience grace and restoration once she ends her adultery.

I am wondering. Do you have personal knowledge of any abuse on the part of the BH? Or is this what your DDOW told you?

If all you have is her word, you are placing a great deal of faith in the reliability of someone who is a demonstrable liar and cheater. If you have personal knowledge, why were you still allowing him to live in your house with her?

I'm asking you some pretty tough questions, I know. I've been on this board nearly 7 years, and in a painful situation like this I want you to have the very best tools available to deal with it - the MB tools.

There is much you can do to influence this situation, if you are willing. IMO, there is much you ~should~ do to influence this situation. I have offered my best advice, and it is your choice what to do with it.

Glad all is well with you and your hubby.
Originally Posted by RMX
I am puzzled why you even asked us this question about exposure to the other man's wife. .. If MB is one thing, ITS CONSISTENT in its concept of exposure.

Thats like walking into a AA meeting and asking "Any of y'all wanna have a drink with me?"

Exposure was still sort of a board secret 7 years ago. I used to get regularly attacked on this board for recommending exposure because board vets used to call it a "lovebuster."
ML, Your pulling my leg right?
Originally Posted by RMX
ML, Your pulling my leg right?

Nooo
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CJ, another thing that ocurred to me is that after you tell his wife, you might want to consider calling that weasel up and telling him to leave your daughter alone. I know I would want to do that.
Yessiree, Bob. If some married old bum with kids was going after my daughter I would rip his head off. Hoooweeee, would I yank that secret little romance into the light of day! rant2

The fact that she is an adult wouldn't stop me from pulling her off the train tracks when the train is bearing down on her.
I know that this situation must be very tough for you. I want to reiterate what people have been saying to you all ready. You need to expose, and yes even your SIL needs to know the truth. Having your DOW tell him herself with you, and possibly even your FBH in the room will show your SIL that you aren't okay with your DOW's decision to have an A but that you will protect her from physical violence.

I think you came here to ask this question because deep down, you knew the right thing to do, and with all of the outside influences telling you what went against your own thoughts, you needed reassurance. Well, we're giving it to you.
Originally Posted by CeeJayKay
I get where you are coming from CWMI, but my daughter didn't kick her husband out because of the affair. She kicked him out because he is a lying, lazy, overbearing, emotionally and sometimes physically abusive bum.

And your daughter was an emotionally detached wife that was dropping her panties for another man....

Of course HER adultery had a great deal to do with why their marriage was failing terribly.

Your daughter needs to tell her husband the truth.

Just my .02
Originally Posted by CeeJayKay
The question running through my mind is should I get involved in this, or should I stay out of my daughter's business.

You have an adult child living under YOUR roof.
This is your business.
This is your opportunity to demonstrate YOUR character. YOUR moral fortitude. YOUR courage.

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she has been having an affair with a married man who has children

This is now a character issue.
Your daughter is breaking up a home/marriage/family and she is deliberately contributing to the misery of children.
Your daughter is becoming a scum bag.
You cannot stand on the sideline and observe.
She lives with you and enjoys your generosity & largesse.
You must act accordingly.

What is the morally correct thing to do?
Expose this adultery in an effort to end this sin.
This will anger your daughter.
Do it anyway.
Sinners hate to be exposed for what they are.

You know what to do.
You're probably hesitant to upset your adulterous daughter.

Do the morally correct thing.

And, just in case you did not know this from your previous experience ....

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She said they'd had sexual relations twice since April 2011, and although they aren't now, they still talk to each other because they have "feelings" for one another.
WAYWARDS LIE !!!!!!! This is a lie.
And as others have said;

The married other man's wife has the right to know the truth about what she's dealing with....

This OM is probably spinning stories about how bad his wife is.... help her, she is the victim that needs the protection.
CJ & Hubby,

I'm praying for both of you.

I can only imagine how tough this must be for both of you.
The reason I would do something so cruel is because the mutual friend who told me what is going on, and who asked me not to tell is my boss.

However folks, my husband just gave me the ultimate out. He indicated that I promised not to tell, but HE DID NOT! I wanted to kiss his face all over and over! My hubby is the best! This guy will get what his smarmy butt deserves, trust me. In way more ways than one.
Originally Posted by CeeJayKay
However folks, my husband just gave me the ultimate out. He indicated that I promised not to tell, but HE DID NOT! I wanted to kiss his face all over and over! My hubby is the best! This guy will get what his smarmy butt deserves, trust me. In way more ways than one.

Your courage is underwhelming.


Originally Posted by CeeJayKay
The reason I would do something so cruel is because the mutual friend who told me what is going on, and who asked me not to tell is my boss.

However folks, my husband just gave me the ultimate out. He indicated that I promised not to tell, but HE DID NOT! I wanted to kiss his face all over and over! My hubby is the best! This guy will get what his smarmy butt deserves, trust me. In way more ways than one.

The only thing worse than making a BAD PROMISE is keeping a bad promise. You need to do the right thing and that does not involve "honoring" unethical promises.

Don't compound the crime by keeping a bad promise. Expose the affair wide and far and then explain to your "friend" that your principles would not allow you to aide and abet a crime.

Be loud and proud and take full credit for exposing the affair. You don't need to HIDE when you are doing the right thing.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
The only thing worse than making a BAD PROMISE is keeping a bad promise. You need to do the right thing and that does not involve "honoring" unethical promises.

DITTO !
Don't sacrifice your principles on the altar of a BAD PROMISE. Not worth it... Don't "honor" a bad promise.
Originally Posted by CeeJayKay
However folks, my husband just gave me the ultimate out. He indicated that I promised not to tell, but HE DID NOT! I wanted to kiss his face all over and over! My hubby is the best! This guy will get what his smarmy butt deserves, trust me. In way more ways than one.

Expose together.
As a team for truth.
Originally Posted by CeeJayKay
The reason I would do something so cruel is because the mutual friend who told me what is going on, and who asked me not to tell is my boss.


This is like telling you your house is on fire but asking you not to call the fire brigade.

What a stupid and cruel request. At the moment you found out, and were probably in shock, you were getting leaned on to make an idiotic promise by a superior at work.

I would be a little angry about manipulation like that myself. Not a bit ashamed about breaking the 'promise' either.
Originally Posted by CeeJayKay
The reason I would do something so cruel is because the mutual friend who told me what is going on, and who asked me not to tell is my boss.

However folks, my husband just gave me the ultimate out. He indicated that I promised not to tell, but HE DID NOT! I wanted to kiss his face all over and over! My hubby is the best! This guy will get what his smarmy butt deserves, trust me. In way more ways than one.
Your boss' moral compass is very questionable. I think it's great that your H is on board with exposure, but I think you need to put some snap in your suspenders and stand up for what's right, without regard for other peoples' agendas or opinions. It's the right thing to do, and the safest thing for your daughter and her marriage. That makes it a no-brainer. (Oh, and another thing: be ready for your daughter to suddenly want to reconcile with her husband when the POSOM is out of the picture. It happens pretty much every time exposure is done and the A is killed.)
Is the violence from your daughters betrayed husband something she told you or do you know this for a fact?

It is very common for WWs to say this. It is also a great reason to persaude people not to tell the BH in 'case he turns into a stalker'

Most true abuse victims wont risk doing anything their h would not like. They certainly would not cheat. They are usually very much in love and wont leave, which is maddening.

Just saying.

Waywards lie.
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Is the violence from your daughters betrayed husband something she told you or do you know this for a fact?

Very good question! One worth repeating.
Originally Posted by Neak
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Is the violence from your daughters betrayed husband something she told you or do you know this for a fact?

Very good question! One worth repeating.

In fact, I would probably explore the "lies" he's been telling you as well. Who did you find out he was lying to you from? Your WWDD? She is probably telling lies.

CV
Originally Posted by CeeJayKay
...but my daughter didn't kick her husband out because of the affair. She kicked him out because he is a lying, lazy, overbearing, emotionally and sometimes physically abusive bum.

Oh, for the love of Pete, you probably uttered the same crap about your husband when you cheated.

Of course it's always the faithful spouse's fault that the wayward has to cheat and demand divorce!

Get outta mommy mode here, you know the lies, you told them.
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Is the violence from your daughters betrayed husband something she told you or do you know this for a fact?

Originally Posted by CeeJayKay
My daughter and her husband have lived with us for the past year and a half.

I am trying to figure out how you didn't know about the violence if they had lived with you for a year and a half. Surely, you would have noticed or heard something if he was so abusive. Why did he leave without a fuss if he is so unstable?

I am also trying to figure out why you don't show more concern over your WD lack of character and integrity. Helping your WD hide from the consequences of her own actions will only teach her that it is ok to lie and deceive. All of her victims need to know the truth about their own lives. It is the right thing to do.

If her BS tries to take revenge on your family, call the police. They are trained to handled these matters. But I have a feeling that won't happen.

I exposed my sister to her fianc�. I caught a lot of flack for it. But it shook her out of her stupidity and has served to save their relationship.

Exposing family is tough and it will bring lots of heat on you, but it is the right thing to do when it is based on principle and things end up playing themselves out.

Expose together as a couple. Protect your DD from any possible violence from her BH, but don�t hide from the truth or protect her from the consequences of her actions. If she gets ostracized from the Renaissance Festival because of this, then so be it. It is a consequence of being with a married man.
CJK

You are getting great advice / insights from the vets here. You should expose immediately - Exposure from both you and your husband.

I was struck by 2 statements you made in your original post that I haven't seen addressed yet.

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She said they'd had sexual relations twice since April 2011, and although they aren't now, they still talk to each other because they have "feelings" for one another. She said they've both mutually decided to call it off, but from my perspective, if he is still calling her, then it is still going on at least emotionally.


Do you really believe it was only 2 times? Do you really believe they have called it off when you caught her on the phone with him? Don't swallow the fog. Your daughter needs a strong and moral mother to help her now more than ever. You need to face facts and use your power of reason.


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We know this guy from the Renaissance Festival scene, and he propositioned me more than once this past spring. After telling him no each time, he stopped asking, probably because he was doing my daughter. If he propositioned me, and he got it on with her, it is only logical that he's probably getting some on the side with others.


Wow. This POSOM really has some nerve. Sounds to me like he was looking for the mother/daughter trophy conquest. Based on what you have told us, you and your husband are following MB principes so I assume radical honesty was used and your husband knows about this guy hitting on you. Given all of this, why is there any concern on your part about exposing this guy? You need to hit him hard with exposure.

As far as you daughter's BH - he probably sensed something was off since....April 2011. I do agree, if he is a violent person, you need to protect your daughter from violence. However, you need to be a strong mother right now. Now is not the time to shield your daughter from the consequences of her choices. As bad as this seems, it will pass with time as did the hurt to your marriage did in time. New forests grow out of scorhed earth if hte right seeds are planted. Do the right thing and help your daughter learn what the right thing is. She is young enough that it will be a life long gift she will eventually treasure.

T10
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