After a long hiatus, I am back on here. And as I read through a lot of the threads, I did see an inordinate amount of people suffering through repeated affairs. Sometimes years apart (one on here was like 10 years apart).

I dont remember dealing much with those type of situations when I was on here before. So, I thought I would start a discussion on this.

To start it off, I know that a person (WW or WH) that continually cheats is most likely never going to be faithful. from what I have read, it just isnt likely they will get their act straight.


So, with that said...let's start off with a few questions:

1. how would everyone here advise us to address that with a BS?
2. Specifically, do we write off such a marriage and just get the BS to get through closing it down and moving on?
3. What if we have a WS on here who is guilty of this, but has finally come here in search of answers? Do we write them off, considering the low probability that they will get their act together?

Okay, the floor is open....

Hi Mortarman,

It's nice to see you again.

I think this will be a very good discussion, thanks for starting it up.

If you get some time, give us an update as to how you are.

God Bless!

I will. Thanks!

I was married for 26 years to a serial cheater. The keylogger provided me with the Gift of Clarity. I had no desire to save the marriage at that point. I just wanted away from him. I am actually shocked at the number of wives who DO want to save those type of marriages. I usually avoid those threads because I can't offer encouragement.

I do believe that if a WW or WH comes looking for help there is a great chance they can BE helped and that is my feeling whether they are a one time cheater or serial cheater.

Knowing that you are a Christian, I'm sure you know the story of Hosea. Biblicly speaking, I believe that a marriage CAN be saved after multiple affairs, but the WS would have to eventually realize that they want better for their life. Convincing them otherwise is a chore in itself. Some will agree that it's not worth the pain and suffering endured because of it, but there are people out there that can stick it out. Those are far and few between though. I think if a BS asks how to save a marriage with multiple affairs, they should be given the tools to do so. There is no more guarantee that the marriage would be saved in either case of multiple affairs or one affair. That's just my opinion though.

Speaking only for myself .... Here goes.
Here are some of the criteria I look at and consider.

The poster's attitudes and goals.
Length of the marriage.
Other mitigating circumstances. (addictions/abuse/etc)
The apparent ability/willingness to learn and implement MB.
My perception of the poster's maturity and capabilities.
The ages of the kids.

I usually lean towards the shortest Plan A possible. Just long enough to organize a proper Plan B.
The widest exposure thinkable.
A good lawyering-up as part of Plan B.
Followed by the silence that speaks the loudest. Plan B.

I usually bail if I sense the poster wants to touch on but not implement MB tools.
I usually bail early if it is an apparent blog.

That's me.

I've had the opportunity to work with more than a few waywards on and off the boards. I've learned a great deal about them and about myself in the process....

I've noticed a couple things regarding the waywards that were in multiple affairs.

1) Only when they've hit bottom is it possible for them to stop their destructive behavior.

2) By the time they confess all they've done, their BS is so decimated that recovery becomes nearly unimaginable and often undesirable.

3) The weekend forum has several multiple FWS's that I've watched consistently, and they still seem to habitually withhold information while trying to recover. I don't mean affair related information, I mean day to day operating information.

I'll be back when I have more time, I really think this will be a good discussion

Hi Mortarman,

Welcome back to the forum. I'm a newbie, so take my thoughts for what they are worth. I am also a husband whose wife cheated 2x in 7 years.

I don't know if I'd say that the WS who cheats will probably never be faithful. I *would* say that they have brought a much harder time of recovery on themselves whether they recover individually or with their spouse. There is a lot of baggage to wade through for them. That said, Can I answer your questions out of order?

2. I would not necessarily write off any marriage based off of the number of affairs. There are so many other factors in play. What is the disposition of the WS in wanting to reconcile, what is the disposition of the BS wanting to reconcile, etc... I am not a divorce advocate, but sometimes it is necessary. It's never my first suggestion unless there's been abuse of some type.

3. I think that even if one "gets it" then it's worth it for me at least. If they are here to really get answers, they have a much better shot than coming here for support of their behavior. If I wrote my own W off, I would have missed a great opportunity. I suspect there are others in the same boat too.

1. I would approach it the same way (initially) as any other affair. What are the conditions that led to the affair? What have you done to eliminate those conditions, do you have EP's in place for WS? What is ws doing in regards to just compensation and living a life of complete openness and honesty?

On the other hand, some things need to be tightened up... Repeat offenders need tighter boundaries and need to take more severe extraordinary precautions, so those would have to be worked on. The BS would have to be advised of all these. Exposure must be emphasized in order to end the affair.

Cv

Thanks SW. By the way, it appears you are one of our success stories here, even though your marriage ended. Congrats!

I wanted to point out that there is one thing in common about the repeaters on this board: they NEVER EVER did anything to recover their marriages. That is WHY they are back here.

For example, they never implemented extraordinary precautions and they never created the romantic marriage that is essential to recovery. These marriages should have never continued in the first place because the WS never implemented even basic precautionary measures.

So I want to make clear that repeats are here only because they did not use Marriage Builders the FIRST TIME.

On the other hand, we do have some recovered marriages here that contain former serial cheaters. They are only recovered becuase they did the necessary things to recover the marriage.'

Serial cheating CAN BE RESOLVED if the couple recovers the marriage. I called Dr Harley in 2007 and he told me has saved lots of these marriages.

The issue is that couples REFUSE to follow MArriage Builders. If you read the repeaters you will see they do not follow MB and are no closer to day than they were 10 years ago.

I never even got as far as having my WXH confess all he had done. I uncovered by snooping, enough to turn my stomach and I just knew I couldn't live with someone so deceitful.

As an added ick in my situation he had spent years gas lighting me...making me feel like *I* was the real problem.

Agreed, GJM. A video of Dr. Harley I saw recently showed him saying that there are marriages he feels wont make it, but he helps them anyway. And sometimes, they make it even though he thought they wouldnt.

And that really is good news isn't it? Not that they are back on the board, but that marriages with serial cheaters can and have been saved by using a strict plan...

Mel I totally agree with you. Thanks.

CV

Thanks Pep. And as you know, I am a HUGE fan of Plan B!!

We might need to break down your list there...as there is a lot of good stuff...especially the discussion of things like addiction.

I think you brought up two key points of discussion...withholding info and the BS being so decimated (since this is happening again) that they have not the energy to sae the marriage, even if the WS is sincere this time.

I would like to look more into that...because it seems to me that any recovery in this situation would be very vulnerable to sabotage from the BS.

Here is the radio show where I called Dr Harley: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=578

I would point out another development I have seen over the years. A BS will come here and kill his spouse's affair and then never do anything else. They never work on recovering the marriage. They often show up here with REPEAT AFFAIRS.

Harley says that if the marriage does not recover it is very probable there will be repeat affairs. And that is true. But most people just REFUSE to work on their marriages.

Harley says in his article Requirements for Recovery:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2311122#Post2311122

But try telling someone that they have to actually go through these steps and typically the answer is "but, but, I can't do that!!" They don't have time to spend 20 hours of UA time because they absolutely everything else comes first. As a result, the couple don't fall in love again and the marriage limps along in a crippled version of the pre-affair marriage.

Until the next affair happens.

Hey Celtic...thanks for this. And your points open a part of the discussion I will get too shortly!

MM, if you want to understand why the 2 repeat affairs are back on our board NOW, all you have to do is go read their old threads from years ago. They never discussed recovery while here, rather they spent their time chatting with board members. There was no recovery. No plan.

Exactly what I thought, Melody. Which brings up an off topic in my mind...what if the BS did try to do all of the MB things they needed to do...but the WS never locked in. And then, it came up again? To that BS, wouldnt it be harder to get them onboard (since tothem it would appear that it didnt work the first time)? Even if the WS is now serious?

You are one of the successes...when the WS isnt worth pursuing!

Great points! And believe me, I understand that BS. Maybe they still wont make the effort. Or they are so decimated, and Plan A/Plan B all took so much out of them, that they had nothing left for recovery.

As I said, I can see why the good doctor says that the biggest enemy of recovery often is the BS.

I saw that. That seems to be the common thread, as you pointed out from Dr. Harley.

No plan...repeat affairs.

If a WS doesn't get on board, the solution is PLAN B and then divorce. They should be divorced if the WS doesn't get on board. That is what Harley prescribes. He is real clear about this, your spouse either gets on board 100% or separation and divorce is in order.

And you are right, some BS's don't want to continue if the WS has another affair. I would not continue such a marriage.

I hear you, Melody. I am just thinking of that situation where the WS actually is finally at the point of wanting to fly right...but the BS is so spent, so exhausted...that they have no energy to fight for the marriage.

How do we talk to the BS and WS to help them proceed? It seems that the WS almost will have to take the marriage on their shoulders for a considerable period of time.

That's exactly right. And that is what Steve Harley tells them, that they are going to carry their marriage and render first aide to their victim.

But when I see a WS who is not serious I do my best to persuade the BS to go into Plan B. Plan A should be short, short, short with a repeater, if at all. IT is plan Recovery or hit the road!

Noted!!

I will be back on shortly to continue some questions that have arisen here.

Have to go get the wife off to work (night shift RN!!).

Don't we have a link to that show floating around somewhere?

I believe it was 2006, actually, as I found it some time ago, and I think I posted the link. Unless that was a different call.

I'm remembering that Dr. Harley said a serial cheater is addicted not to a person but to a lifestyle, and you have to have much more drastic changes (more drastic extraordinary precautions) to change the circumstances that lead the person to cheat, to make it impossible to cheat, in order to recover the marriage. It can be done, and as you say, the question is are they willing to follow Marriage Builders or not.

For purposes of this discussion, do we have a distinction between "serial cheater" and "repeat offender"? Because as you say, there are a bunch of repeat offenders here, who are repeat offenders because they never lifted a finger to implement Marriage Builders and recover their marriage (though their betrayed spouse may have blogged here for years and made friends for "support" while they waited and hoped for things to get better). I'm not sure they are the same as the type of person Dr. Harley talked about who are literally addicted to the thrill of infidelity. Though they may be on the road to becoming such people, and some of them clearly are both.


And they usually think "Do you own SAA/HNHN/LB?" is a rhetorical question, and the answer is often "no."

Mortarman, there is an excellent post floating around by poster Doormat_No_More about how to recover a marriage, a WS needs to do certain things, and their compliance is measurable, i.e., you can examine and see if they are doing it or not. I will try to find it.

In the case you are describing, if the WS is serious and begins implementing healthy marital behavior, they will begin making love bank deposits, and if they are patient enough, and have enough opportunity (depending on the betrayed spouse), their betrayed spouse will indeed fall in love with them again. Of course, by the time we get here in the first place, the BS may be love busting the WS (which would certainly tend to demotivate them and prolong recovery or make it impossible), or may be refusing to spend time with the WS or even refusing to stay in the marriage.

As is their right, really.

But if the BS wants to recover the marriage the second time around, I would encourage them to learn how their WS's compliance can be measured. If the WS is doing the right things, and the BS is doing the right things, recovery will happen, even though at the beginning of the process, one or both may have feelings that cause them to be pessimistic and assume that recovery will not occur. It requires the use of reason/the intellect to override those emotions, measure the WS's compliance to see if recovery is possible, and then stick with the plan despite what one's feelings cause them to want to do.

A helpful excerpt from a long post by Doormat_No_More. DoNoMo is one of the best posters on this site. I believe he has listened to tens or hundreds of hours of Dr. Harley on the radio, and he's really good at saying what Dr. Harley would say in a variety of situations.


Original post here

The requirements for recovery can be measured by a betrayed spouse. It is up to the BS to measure and see if WS is following them or not.

Good posts, Markos.

I am actually kind of putting together a bulleted summary of what everyone is saying here for this situation.

Very interesting.

After coming here in 2007, my STBX WH "went along" with MB. He did phone counseling with Steve, we did the online program. He had a sheet of ExtraOrdinary Precautions written down. He cried when watching the infidelity video.

But (and it's a BIG but)...

STBX WH still had trouble with honesty + Independent Behavior. And had another affair in 2011.

So even if you have a seemingly pro-MB F?WS, if they have trouble implementing the two things I mentioned above (radical honesty and giving up IB), you have a BIG problem on your hands and are at an extremely high risk for another affair.

Don't know if I am getting off track here but just my two cents...

No,those are great points. Adding them to the list!

Susie, that is EXACTLY why I didn't even want to offer my WXH the option of recovery. I knew he would 'go along' and yet I had no real faith in his sincerity. I think he stayed in a state of denial that I was actually going to divorce him until, well, until I was remarried a year after our divorce was final! He tried to get me not to marry my dh....I really believe until that point he thought I would eventually take him back.

I have very little hope for repeat offenders with Honesty issues.

Could you link to his last thread?
I'm having trouble finding it.
I thought I bookmarked .... but apparently not.
Thanks.

i guess i should chime in here being one of those BS's with a serial cheater.

I agree with the distinction of a serial cheater and repeat offender.

maybe i am lucky in havin a serial cheater that was not hooked on a person but on a lifestyle- that i was more able to accept. i would be gone in one nano if there was more emotion involved, see my H has a hard time with emotions and committment in a way, he is much better now and the light bulbs go off every day for him, its like ahhh this is what a loving fulfilling life is wow.

you can read my drama or ask questions i will answer its hard to put my thoughts on this down, mind is swimming.

but the day the EP's are not followed, i am out. and the moment the independent behavior creeps back, i give the reality check and say that will not work for me. so if he want his independent life, he is going to have to really think if hes got the guts to say i am out.


do i think H was a coward but not telling me, yes. but i also think he got so hooked on the rush and couldnt see the big picture.

the struggle to get all of the info took some time, but once i think he was caught he figured i should tell all, now did he not really i had to pull it from him. he was relieved it was all over.

ok i am jsut blabbing and i cannot type Mort, you will learn that about me. but if you have questions ask me.

I did feel that i was a bit out there when i joined and that many posters were shaking their heads at my situation, being almost a year from dday i would be curious to hear what they thought.

read all books, demanded H do the same.
counceled with jennifer
have private therapy 3 time a week from march to october now 2x
Online course
H is at his session now

Thanks for this! I am looking into your story!

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2485742#Post2485742

should have done that for you sorry - i guess i dont like re-living it

Sure. Here it is: LINK

I support those that want to save their marriage. However, my first marriage ended because of infidelity. I had no clue about MB back then. And it's very likely that had I known about MB back then we wouldn't have gotten to a state of where infidelity went down.

However, after finding out my wife was having sex with another man, I was done. When I first had suspicions, the marriage was pretty bad. And there were enough signs that you might as well could have said "cheating" without solid proof. I pretty much just cut off any physical contact with her at that point. At that point, I started preparing to get out of the house. Shortly after I had my proof, I was able to leave and I did. I was pretty resentful towards my wife as it was since we had gotten married. Nothing sucks more than being 17 and hearing "Oh I forgot to pick up my birth control a few months ago and I'm pregnant."

So, for me, having an affair is a deal breaker. And if my current wife were to have an affair, I'd not be one to save my marriage.

But I firmly support those that want to save their marriages.

I don't know whether it goes under IB or not but as a person with a history of having multiple affairs I'd add that the sense of entitlement is something you have to really look as a BS.

This sense of entitlement comes with this idiotic lifestyle, WS gets used to the idea that s/he has more rights, more liberty to behave in more ways that other in their lives. It is their life, afterall! And this is a trait that goes away very slowly. When you have put an end to your affairs and decided to become a decent person then this entitlement shows its ugly head in negotiations which soon turn to fights.

This trait has been the hardest one to eliminate for me.

Thank you for sharing this.
Very enlightening.

I definitely saw the sense of entitlement in my WXH just before the last Dday. He had climbed the corporate ladder and thought he was all that and resented the heck out of me for being a SAHM even though I was a good wife and took care of everything at home so he could focus on his career.

i agree with this! that entitlement issue has bothered me alot.

I understand this is about people in my situation, not for people in my situation. I just thought I could toss in my perspective of how things happened for me. I think it is a great thread.

I want to clearify, my WW had her first A's 15 years ago. The discovery day from those A's occured 10 years ago. We found this sight a short time after that DDay.
Back then we did do a lot of chat, and used the board as many did in those days as more of a support group, more for making us feel better rather than encourage and instruct on MB principals. It did help alot to get over the pain of the A's but it didn't help alot in the recovery from the A's.

We did get nearly all the books that applied at the time, read SAA, His Needs, Love Busters, and even bought the HNHN Workbook (never did the workbook). We followed what we read in those books to the best of our understanding. We ended up with a great marriage as most who recover describe. Perhaps we didn't go to extremes with some of those thing like EPs. We did pick up, sell the house and move across the country to remove ourselves from the environment that helped cause the A's.

Looking back, I believe we did what we thought was necessary to recover and felt we did quite a bit to recover and were successful. The number 1 thing that I believe we didn't do that would have prevented a relapse is we lost sight and didn't continue to implement the principals into our lives every day since. 10 years ago, we promised each other we would read the books every 2 years. When we felt things were going great, we either forgot or just had the attitude of why should we when its going so well.

As for my thoughts on encouraging someone like myself on to either work on it or give up an move on, I have to say if you haven't been down that road it would be easy to say you should give up. I know 11 years ago, I would have told a person who had been cheated on to toss in the give up. One year ago if a person in my situation came to me I would have said give up it's not worth it. Now here I am, never know how you'll react until you've experienced it.

I can't say enough about the good folks who have helped and encouraged me. Thank you all!

Senn, do you know that Dr Harley tells people to give up every week on his radio show? And on the weekend forum? It has nothing to do with a reaction, but with the possibility of recovery. A reaction will not ensure your success when you have a spouse who is on her 6-7th affair and is no closer to establishing extraordinary precautions than she was when she had the affair.

And see, you still don't understand why you keep getting hit by the bus. It has nothing to do with reading the books every 2 years. Reading the books will have no value if you don't affair proof your marriage. Reading HNHN can never compensate for a complete lack of EPs.

In your case, it is obvious why your wife is on affair #6-8. You don't have integrated lifestyles that would prevent it. Not only does she work an opposite shift which makes it easy for her to chase men [she chased your best friend and the car repair man] but she has a night job where she works with all men! How crazy is that to have a serial cheater work with all men?

So see, its not reading books again that will help you. It is changing your lives in a way that makes it impossible for her to have affairs. And she has not lifted a finger to do that. EVER.

It wouldn't be responsible to encourage a person to stay in a marriage that is doomed to failure. Harley sure doesn't do that. It has nothing to do with how the BS "feels," but everything to do with the possibility of recovery. When there is no possibility of recovery, when the WS does nothing to protect the marriage, then Plan B and then Plan D is warranted. Marriage Builders is NOT marriage at all cost.

p.s. you brought the environment with you. The environment is your wife when she is ALONE with men.

Senn,


Well, as you see now, those EPs are far from extreme, they are necessary, an absolute must, because you don't know better.

After being married for 17 years and 2,5+ years into recovery, I know and it feels like that the age of my true marriage is this, the age of our recovery. MB marriage is very different from the marriage where "I knew better". First of all, I truly don't know better, because I have to read them books constantly, read and post here as much as I have time, discuss MB with my H and practise it with him every day and do it properly --- this last one is actually the key, living the programme in its entirety. Only then there is hope for someone like me and someone like your WW.

Exactly.

Recon and Mel picked up on something I overlooked.


EP's are extreme?
Really?
In poker, this would be a "tell".

(I was going to link Wikipedia's explanation of Poker Tell .... but they are currently shut down in protest. Look it up tomorrow)

Sennipa gives his position away with this one remark he made.

I can't think of anything more "extreme" than a spouse who has 6-8 affairs.

I believe this to be VERY true. Thanks!

Your situation is a case-in-point here. But clearly, not the only one. That is why I wanted to do this thread. To study what the dynamics here on the BS and WS side.

Now THIS is VERY true!!

Mel,
As you know, I am getting to a stage where I'm not sure if this marriage is what I want. WW is stepping up, but I don't know if that can save our marriage. A little part of me has hope, and I will give it a chance for now.

My point to re-reading the books is to remind us of what we need to do to keep a healthy and safe marriage. We used to recomend the books to freinds, as they have a lot of tools to make a better marriage - even if you haven't experienced an A.

Despite some advice not to, I have been re-reading the books and believe me, there is a lot a person can forget in 10 years that can/could help prevent another A. Not only did we not implement and maintain EPs we also lost sight of some of the basic concepts that we practiced 7-8-9 years ago (and despite what your assesment is, we did practice them). We lost alot of that with time. Dr Harley does say that implementing all of these things will help prevent another A, not just one thing. We maintained some of the principals but not all, and we failed- that is my assesment of how this happened again.

Had we revisited the books and discussed these things throughout our recovery over the past 10 years, I believe this would have prevented our current situation.

Your wife failed.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:p2-c7LMP1uoJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tell_%28poker%29+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

Senningpa, I am new to your situation, so pardon me if I am off anywhere in my analysis. And not to take away from this thread...let me say that your last statement is 100% false. Reading the books, becoming an expert on all of this stuff (both you and your wife) while good, would not have prevented this. I mean, you both understood these concepts all along.

If you had to narrow it down to ONE thing, what is it that would have kept this from happening? Or let me say it this way:

What is it about you and/or your wife that allows this to keep happening?

Answer: Your wife's lack of boundaries.

Plain and simple. And she knows this. You know this.

All of the concepts, all of the UA, and meeting needs, etc are POINTLESS if she is never going to put up boundaries around your relationship in order to protect it.

It is that simple.

You are picking my extreme statement apart. I did not call EPs extreme. WE followed the EPs at first, and with many of the tools and concepts, we lost sight, bent the rules and even discarded the rules. As time heals all wounds, we forgot what we learned and felt secure in our marriage. I am guilty, WW is definetely guilty.

You are right, it is not just "one thing" as you suggest, but you have to FIRST implement ONE THING in order to have a marriage: EP's. So none of those other things are relevant if you don't do the first step becuase you won't have a marriage to save.

That ONE THING is implementing a LIFESTYLE that complements and protects the marriage. That has never been done. And you have been back here for 6 weeks <?> and EPs are STILL not in place.

In a recovered marriage, you don't have to read a book to remember your LIFESTYLE. And let me explain. My H and I have an integrated lifestyle and make career choices/changes that COMPLEMENT our marriage. That is because we have a recovered marriage. When my H is offered promotions, etc, he first asks if this will complement our marriage. If there is travel involved, weird working hours, excessive epxosure to females, he doesn't take it.

My point is that reading the book will not help you one bit if you have not implemented EP's. Reading the books will not protect your marriage from harm.

Your wife failed.

Mortorman, I cannot disagree with that.

Dr. Harley preaches implementing all of his concepts to prevent an A, as one concept can or does compliment another. His ideas creates a web of protection for a marriage.

WW has poor boundaries, this is true. If this doesn't or can't be changed, then what else is there. Dr Harley admits we all are predesposed to have an A, despite excelent boundaries or poor boundaries. If we had continued to practice what we had learned perhaps things would be different. Yes we must/ she must work on her boundaries, but the rest is just as important.

Actually, that is NOT what he preaches! Yes, he says we are predisposed to adultery...all of us. What protects us from that? UA? Nope. Meeting ENs? Nope.

Boundaries!!

Look, a marriage can survive not meeting ENs. It can survive not giving each other adequate time together. It can survive inattention. It can survive fights.

It CANNOT survive when at least one of the parties has no boundaries.

So, while all of those things are important...without boundaries, all of those things are meaningless. If she will never institute the boundaries needed...then there truly is no hope for the marriage. None!

Senningpa, let me elaborate....

If I am predisposed to adultery, why did I not go out and sleep with someone when all of this was going on 7-10 years ago? I mean, not only were my needs NOT being met, but I was actively being destroyed by my wife. I wasnt getting any UA. Why did I not do what she was doing?

Boundaries!

If I lower my boundaries, even for a second...then ANYTHING can happen!!

And if you know my story, I did lower my boundaries on at least one occasion, and if it wasnt for the folks here kicking me in the pants...I would have EASILY fallen into a mess.

So, please never think that Dr. Harley believes that doing all of those things will affair-proof your marriage. Why?

Because it is like a fish tank. The boundaries are the glass. If there is no glass, then you can poor all of the water you want into the thing...and it isnt going to stay...it just ends up all over the floor.

Mel,
You are only looking at her working conditions. Yes it isn't good. We are working on that, believe me. It has been ongoing process, but we are getting there. The other EPs are in place and currently in practice! She has done well in this area IMO. This was explained many times, not alot of jobs etc, we cannot afford to drop ship an change in a day, especially in our current financial situation. Not trading marriage for finances as some have suggested, but trying to be smart about the change that is needed as to prevent further damage to our situation buy killing our finances.

He doesn't say that at all. All the need meeting in the world will not compensate for poor boundaries. If you do a good job of meeting your wife's needs and are spending 15 hours of UA time, all of that is for naught if she is out trolling for action during the daytime while you are at work. BUT..she can't troll for action IF YOU ARE WITH HER. And she can't troll for action if she works with WOMEN.

As long as you are not with her when she goes out, she can and will troll for action. As long as she works with all men she will have opportunities each and every day.

Fish tank! You are pouring water into a tank with no glass. Until she puts up the boundaries and removes herself from ANY situation that could lead to a repeat of affairs...namely being around and befriending men...then you have no glass on the tank.

And pretty soon, you will notice that the floor is all wet yet again!

Point taken Mortorman, thanks,

Her working conditions are the ENVIRONMENT that led to her affair. You work opposite shifts which gives her the freedom to chase men all day. And then she has the freedom to chase men all night at her job. So no, EPs are *NOT* in place. You have to change the conditions that led to the affair. THAT HAS NOT BEEN DONE.

I don't know what it means to say you are "working on that" when there is no plan at all. Hope is not a plan.

Actually, SusieQ's WH's postings are filled with classic multi-affair thinking errors.


He wrote this AFTER he supposedly learned MB after getting caught the first time, years earlier. His entitlement was massive. His lamenting was all "me me me" focused.

Some of you know I am interested in internal vs external 'locus of control' personality styles. I suspect Chris1972, and most repeat offenders, can only 'see' how outside pressures caused them to behave badly. Lack of personal responsibility might be a life-long personality style.

LINK to locus of control discussion

Repeat offender thinking ~~~> "Why implement MB strategies to protect the marriage when the real cause of adultery is out of my control?"

I am taking over this thread, and It is a usefull thread for many, so I am going to quit.

I apoligize. I will start posting on my own thread.

Actually, it is relevant, senningpa. Why? Because your situation is a classic case of what this thread is about.

There are two parts. The first is the repeat offender, when a BS wants to save the marriage. That is your deal.

The second is a repeat offender when the BS is unsure or is walking...but the WS wants to save it finally.

So, there is no problem with your stuff being here as your case is one of the two!

I think it is an excellent case study in the reasons why marriages suffer repeat affairs. Harley is right when he says:


When a marriage does not recover from an affair, because the BS has set the bar so low, repeat affairs are often the result. BECAUSE the wayward fog never wears off. He just stumbles along until he finds the next affair.

There's that phrase "work on" again. The same one I used to use when I said I was "working on" my angry outbursts, but nothing changed, and my marriage didn't get any better, either. I couldn't have actually told you what I was doing to "work on" it, either, which should've been a clue that "work" was the wrong word to use.

"Do or dont do...there is no TRY." Yoda

My two cents:

If my wife had another affair, my response would be an immediate, pitch-black plan B to shepherd me through the divorce process, then would never speak to her or acknowledge her existence again. I would not forgive or reconcile through a repeat affair.

I do not post on threads dealing with multiple affairs because I have nothing to offer. I can't understand why anyone would want to reconcile under such circumstances.

At the same time, I keep reading in an attempt to understand. To date, any level of understanding why someone submits themselves to such abuse eludes me.

Yes, warhorse...I understand. And I have been one of those persons where there has been repeated abuse.

Should I have ever gone full Plan D...then yes, I would have made it so my wife and I would have never communicated directly again. Ever. I am with you on that.

But I have learned on here, and through my own experiences, that things are not that simple at times. There are many things that enter the equation that cloud what needs to be done.

Are you saying that we could all have an affair, despite excellent boundaries?

If so, that is not what Dr. Harley says.

Several weeks ago I encouraged you to call Dr. Harley himself, and I notice you didn't take advantage of the opportunity. It seems to me you could really benefit from a clearer understanding of what he says.

Senn, I have already posted to you several times that I have spoken to Dr Harley about my serial cheating STBX WH and that his advice was to focus in on making lifestyle/environment changes but you seem really resistant to this.




Actually Dr H said this to me:

"It is the conditions that have more to do with unfaithfulness than, say, a bad marriage or the fact that ENs are not being met..."

He later tells me that my STBX could be considered an addict and that for someone like this you take away the opportunity, you control the environment to such an extent that it is impossible to cheat. Take a listen, about 5 minutes in.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3009

Marcos, "I try but never could", point taken. I jump on the WW when she uses these types of phrases, and I deserve the same.

To be honest, I know all to well my WW has a major boundary issue. Yet I have little knowledge in how to gauge her improvements in this area. We discuss it and "work" on it, but only by her actions can I gauge or grade her improvemets. Any ideas?

We have a book titled Boundaries and have been reading it (actually have two copies). It is Christian based, does not spacifically apply to affairs, but does have some usefull tips and ideas in it.
I know how my boundries apply to me, and how I have maintained throughout the years without having an A, but how without time can I know if she has changed or is improving in this area. She could be talking the talk, but without the walk means nothing to me.

You guage her improvements by being there WITH HER. If you are WITH HER she can't cheat. YOU REMOVE THE OPPORTUNITIES. For example, if you are WITH her at the car repair shop, she can't troll for the men there. If you are WITH HER at home during your time off, she can't troll for men. If she doesn't have opposite sex friendships then she is less likely to bed men.

You need to arrange your lives in a way that it would be virtually impossible for her to chase men. That means spending all your off time together and changing her job so she is working with WOMEN.

I see no "work" on this at all in this regard. Saying you are "working on" the problem and making no changes is just empty talk.

Please listen to the radio clip Susie posted about addicts. Dr Harley explains exactly what I have been telling you over and over again.

The walk means nothing unless the OPPORTUNITIES ARE REMOVED.

Susie, You and Mel have both told me this. I have not disagreed with either of you on this. I am currently exploring our options for a change. As I continue to say, we cannot destroy our finances while our marriage is at a brink of destruction and expect to save either. We have to take our time on this decision as it can make or brake us. I am currently in negotiation with her employer to be hired there. This would put me in a position to know exactly what she is doing at work.

This subject is a prority and will not happen overnight, but in the meantime I want to continue to discuss and (do) other things that might save our marriage.

senn, we gave her pointers to all the information she needs to implement boundaries, months ago. Either she is going to do it, or not. She doesn't need to go buy another book and take a college level course in it; she just needs to do it.

How? Well, first off, there is no "imrpvoement!! Its like saying "well, honey, I used to only hang out at the bar with 10 guys. Now I only hang out with 7. That's improvement." Bull!!

She either puts the boundaries in place or she has no boundaries. Its like saying with my fish tank analogy that hey, three sides have glass. Who cares? Without all four sides having glass, it is still the same result...water all over the floor!

She MUST, I say MUST implement boundaries IMMEDIATELY! No contact, no being in situations where she is alone with other men. And others where it would put her in contact with men. She is just not allowed to do this for the REST OF HER LIFE!

Those are boundaries. They are very easy to put up. And very easy to check on.

If she works with a bunch of men, she QUITS! IMMEDIATELY! If she is in the habit of going out with the girls to places where there are men, she STOPS going IMMEDIATELY!!

She has lost the ability to do these things and remain married.

I have read her thread...and yours. You two still dont get this!! The boundaries can and must be put in place IMMEDIATELY. Until then, it is useless to pour water into the tank. It isnt even worth trying!

Hello all,

My stbxww has always had terrible boundary issues. This was exactly why she had her affairs. When we tried to reconcile I knew in my gut that she couldn't adhere to the EP's. She said that she couldn't operate in a controlling marriage. She was sooo right!!

I highly doubt that she could ever change..

I do like the part that mortarman brought up about you might be in a marriage with no EN's being met, AO's, and DJ's being said but if you both have strong boundaries an affair probably won't occur. Guess that's why so many people live as roommates.

I like this thread..

I don't think we have suggested that the job change can happen overnight, but you have been here for over a month and it doesn't seem like you are taking the lifestyle changes seriously, given the fact that you keep trying to talk about other solutions.

Have you listened to the clip? Dr Harley doesn't suggest that I have my STBX read a book on boundaries. In fact, he tells me that he has developed a skillset in chasing after women and that it is going to be "a real trick" getting him to give that up. Again, I think this is true for your WW, moreso because she has had many more affairs than my STBX did.

The situation you are in now...is ripe for your WW to have another affair, senn. The fact that you two don't acknowledge this is very alarming.

Senn, please give this a listen:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=652

Implementing further steps do not help until you take step one. Recovery does not start until you take step one. It doesn't matter how many Harley books or how many Clouds and Townshend books you buy. Step one has got to happen. In her case, step one is a little different, she she is not addicted to any one specific man, but to the thrill of chasing men, in general.

This is my feeling exactly. Nothing has changed here. They don't get it.

FANTASTIC RADIO CLIP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Susie - can you explain more about this? Specifics to why Dr. Harley doesn't think STBWXH will change here? Is it his peer influence or a character influence?

It is an addiction. Did you listen to the radio clip?

Excellent clip. No lie.

There's two of them, Pep; one from me, one from Susie. Collect them all!

TJ: I realized recently that I'm nearing the end of listening through 2007. At that point (there are no 2008 and 2009 shows in the archive), I think I will have essentially listened to them all.

Susie's STBXH is addicted to an unquenchable thirst for admiration.

Again, we are back to EP's/Boundaries

He has an UNWILLINGNESS to allow ONLY his wife to meet his need for this admiration.

AGAIN, NO EP'S! NO BOUNDARIES! add in the ENTITLEMENT and IB and you have a recipe for multiple affairs.

I'm at work, and spending way too much time on here. I definately can't listen to the clip. I will have to wait until I get home and download it for an hour or to on my super slow internet to list to a clip.

Will listen to clips tonight. Thanks All!!!

Both of these happened in our situation as well, due to a false recovery coupled with all the lies I told to hide my affair.

For those that don't remember, very abridged version;
I told my wife I had several affairs over the course of our marriage. I convinced her that I was not currently involved in any affairs. We began marriage counseling, etc.... all the while I was actively involved in the only affair I'd ever had. My head was so twisted sideways that I had no clue at that time what my deception was setting up.

I believe recovery after false recoveries can be very vulnerable to sabotage from the BS too.

Dr. Jennifer Harley Chalmer walked us through some horrendous fields, that were covered with land mines, in order to guide us into recovery. My wife admits she became the greatest obstacle in our recovery, as she had no energy remaining to fight for us. She was decimated!

There are two couples I follow on the weekend forum;

I've also developed friendships off the boards with these FWH's

Danceswithgoats & her FWH GreenMile

Sunflower55 & her FWH rfwihd (regretful for what I have done)

Both of these FWH's have been remorseful, yet their BS's have yet to really engage in the MB Program roadmap.

These BS's struggle with the fact that meeting their FWH's need's actually triggers them! The assignments trigger them as well! Dr. Harley gently try's to persuade them to work his plan, but they are very resistant to laying themselves out there for more pain/triggers.

Just an observation!

This is kind of the point I was trying to raise. What happens when you hit recovery, true recovery where the WS is ready to go the extra mile...and the BS is just spent?

"My wife admits she became the greatest obstacle in our recovery, as she had no energy remaining to fight for us. She was decimated!"

This is a very telling statement.

Our recovery was nothing short of a miracle!

I tell people in this situation to do exactly what Dr. Jennifer Harley Chalmers told me....

You either carry the weight of the recovery, for as long as it takes, or allow your BS the peace of PlanD.

Not an exact quote, but it's pretty close!

I wonder how hard it is for someone to do that who had so little invested in the first place?

Like tst said, there are several marriages over on the weekend forum where the BS seems to not even care anymore. Harley addresses this point:

Back to this one,

As Melody and yourself have pointed out....

It all depends on how willing they are to develop comprehensive EP's.

If they will not put together a list, it speaks loud and clear!

I created a thread on this very topic, Here ----> Link to EP Thread

They have no clue where to start!

Mel,
I have seen you repeat this several times. I am currently going through a funk where I don't have much energy or will to continue. Are you suggesting go with that feeling? I am up and down on this, and WW seems to pull me through when I am at rock bottom. I am putting a lot of thought into plan D, but feel I must give it a chance to see if she can pull me through it to a point where I want to pick up the slack.

HPB, I think my WW lack of posting here, and her inability to articulate her actions are creating a situation where nobody has a whole lot of faith in her or hope for our marriage. How do you suppose she change that. What I am seeing is a real interest from her in saving our marriage, yet she is unable to describe it, and I am not the best judge of it. What can she do on this forum to get the positive feedback.

Senningpa, you cannot judge ANY of her actions until the boundaries are set in place. I nstone.

I believe she is just like SusieQ's STBXH.... She's an admiration junkie!

With that in mind....

Until she lists out her EP's, just as I've described on the EP thread and actually puts her defensiveness away, she's going to be seen for what she is delivering..... Half measures!

And as I've learned the hard way, Half Measures avail us NOTHING! The don't get us Half, they get us nothing.

As Mortarman described, BOUNDARIES - IN STONE!

Senn,

"What I am seeing is a real interest from her in saving our marriage, yet she is unable to describe it"


It's impossible to describe floating boundaries.

That which is concrete, is extremely easy to describe.

Senn, EP's are not abstract, they are very concrete. And IF she chooses to implement them, she WILL be able to describe them here as well. People are usually able to talk about what they are DOING and discuss these things in detail, ask questions. She hasn't asked or described anything particular yet which shows she is actually implementing EPs.

I have seen no indicators from sennswife that she is serious about recovering her marriage. The only thing she is serious about is getting senn off her back so she can go to chasing men in peace. No remorse, no plan, no nothing.

She has not even acknowledged she has an addiction of chasing men and instead DEMANDS we leave the past in the past and never mention her past affairs. That is not remorse and that is not someone who is serious about saving her marriage. She knows that senn will tolerate will never do anything so she has no reason to change.

The one indication I saw was the no contact letter, which I think finally did get sent. But I was never sure if it was Dr. Harley's no contact letter, or one of her own (WS usually write their own NC letters full of weasel words). And that seems to be it. She still doesn't get extraordinary precautions, so far as I can tell, or she would QUIT her job NOW and start looking for a new job LATER.

And the NC letter really isn't that much for her to give on, because she's not really addicted to a specific man, she's addicted to CHASING MEN in general. She can't write a NC letter to that, she can only stop entering that environment ever again, starting now.

When held to the fire to do something, she picked a tiny little concession that didn't cost her much: the NC letter. When held to the fire to do more specific things (quit her job), she ran away from the board and whined that she wasn't getting the positive feedback she needs/wants. She is literally blaming her failure to follow the program on other people not admiring her. I'm guessing she's big into the disproven theory that you can't do right in life without high self-esteem? It's actually the other way around: if you do right in life, then you will reap self-esteem from that.

Senn, what is the plan if you are unable to work with your wife? Will she quit THAT DAY?

From what I understand, you've been scrupulous about managing your finances and debt, so her being out of work a few weeks while looking for a new job should not be a devastating blow.

Hi MM,

It has been a long time. I haven't been around here much either. Too busy with life these days, some good, some bad.

I liked your question and having read only few of the pages, little time today, I would only add to what others have said.

The attitude of the WS is far more important than the number of affairs in the past. And frankly the attitude/perspective does take time to change, so when someone (bs/ws) comes here, I always felt it was good to give it some time for perspective to change and the information that they obtained here to sink in.

I will say that Pep is also right. If someone won't listen, won't try, and really just wants validation, there isn't much to be done.

I firmly believe that people can grow and change if they are motivated to do so. And some of that motivation MUST come from within.

Just thoughts,

JL

But making you feel good temporarily does not affair proof your marriage. There is no chance, no hope unless she implements EPs and solid boundaries. She is not even remotely seriously about doing that. That should be the first step.


Sincere interest would be backed up with real action. There is none here. Just a bunch of smoke and mirrors ["reading books," "calling my husband"] It takes no articulation whatsoever to write out your plan to affair proof your marriage. She has no plan. She will never get positive feedback on this forum until she is serious. The negative feedback comes from the fact that she is not serious.

Senn, when MelodyLane tells you what the first step is, she's not just giving you her personal opinion. She is repeating the findings of Dr. Harley, who has been doing this and specializing in this for forty years. He knows what works, and he says it is a very narrow path, and that if you don't follow that path, it won't work!

And you guys proved that before.

I just really wish you'd plug into Dr. Harley as a source of help.

JL, my old friend. For some who havent been here very long, JL was one of the key people back when I was in the middle of the darkest days...who kept me on the straight and narrow. To this day, the idea that the right answers almost always materialize if we are patient and observant, came straight from JL...and I hang my hat on that. No more impulsive reactions!!

JL, I hope you are doing well.

I agree that attitude is everything. But I am more interested in what happens when the one fighting for the marriage begins to lose interest, especially around the time that the WS comes out of the fog and is truly interested in recovery.

Hi JL,

It's interesting that you mention attitude.

SMB said that was the critical.

Here is what she required of me to agree to before engaging in recovery with me.


I noticed, most of these have to do with an attitude of repentance, and require action steps to back it up, starting with complete surrender.

....As opposed to an attitude of entitlement.

JL was on here when I was here 10 years ago. Don't remember the story but remember the name.

MM,

You ask the hardest questions
My answer? Ok, I could not resist, but it is true. The data will tell the BS what to do. BUT, if the WS is interested in recovery, it is incumbent upon them to provide some of the energy for recovery as the BS is no doubt running very low.

Hope you and your family are doing well MM.

God Bless,

JL

HerPapaBear,

I could not agree more with that list. And yes it does reflect a willingness to change attitude from entitlement to repentance and care.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

I'm curious, in some cases, like my own....
There is no time to wait for the gradual shift of perspective.

What do we tell the wayward that is coming out of the fog?

(my mind capture the image of Forest Gump,,, Run Forest, Run) Sorry, I digress!

Interesting thread.

�I can't think of anything more "extreme" than a spouse who has 6-8 affairs.� One, ten years long? (Maybe VLTAs are a different thread.)

�Lack of personal responsibility might be a life-long personality style.� Ding-ding, I think we have a winner.

But I have learned on here, and through my own experiences, that things are not that simple at times. There are many things that enter the equation that cloud what needs to be done.� I take that back, we have two winners.

eta: In the interests of full disclosure, I am (for a long time) in the not sure if I much care any more one way or the other BS scenario.

HPB,

I am not sure what you are asking
Why the lack of time? It sounds to me you told him exactly what he needed to hear. As for the fog, that is a problem. The fog means that "logic" "right and wrong" really have no meaning or offer guidance, hence the term the fog...they are lost.

So clarify for me and I'll do my best to offer an opinion.

God Bless,

JL

On the road now...will respond to everyone later tonight.

But considering this thread, it was strange that this morning, this song came on the perfectly describes the BS when the WS is a repeat offender. The song is by 12 Stones...and is titled "Lie to Me." I put the words below. Very interesting!

________________

A candle burns away
The ashes full of lies
I gave my soul to you
You cut me from behind

Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide
You're scared of the truth, I'm tired of the lies
Cause who I am�
Is where you want to be

Don't act like an angel
You've fallen again
You're no superhero
I've found in the end

So lie to me once again
And tell me everything will be alright
Lie to me once again
And ask yourself before we say good bye
Well good bye
Was it worth it in the end?

You said you were there for me
You wouldn't let me fall
All the times I shared with you
Were you even there at all?

Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide
You're scared of the truth, I'm tired of the lies
Cause who I am�
Is where you want to be

Don't act like an angel
You've fallen again
You're no superhero
I've found in the end

So lie to me once again
And tell me everything will be alright
Lie to me once again
And ask yourself before we say good bye
Well good bye
Was it worth it in the end?

Why'd you have to up and run away
A million miles away
I want to close my eyes and make believe
That I never found you

Just when I put my gaurd away
It's the same old story
You left me broken and betrayed
It's the same old story

Don't act like an angel
You've fallen again
You're no superhero
I've found in the end

So lie to me once again
And tell me everything will be alright
Lie to me once again
And ask yourself before we say good bye
Well good bye
Was it worth it in the end?

Lie to me once again
It's the same old story
Lie to me once again
It's the same old story

Was it worth it in the end?�

not to sound trite, but isn't this why two are better than one? If one falls, the other is there to pick him up.

I would say if the BS is spent and *willing*, it can be done. If not... It's probably not going to be saved.

CV

Sorry, I was on my way out the door as I was finishing my post, so I didn't re-read it prior to hitting submit.

I was fortunate to come out of the fog when I did. It didn't require weeks or even months to gain a perspective shift. My perspective shift happened overnight.

If my shift had not occured so suddenly, SMB would not have been interested in waiting for me to gain a gradual shift and all would have been lost. SMB had basically thrown in the towel by the time I had awoken, she was exhausted... There was no time to waste, I had to move quickly.

How do we guide the wayward that doesn't have a sudden awakening and yet is in the same boat that I found myself in, with a BS that is just done!? Do we even bother?
I think the majority of multiple affair waywards end up in this boat at some point and they just aren't seeing it....
What are some strategies you've seen work to help fast track their wake up call?

Very good question!

Wow what a great thread

i can't help but add to this by saying that if a WS has a second, third or fourth A after reading the MB concepts (not necessarely implementing them but even just reading about how and why Affairs happen) then in my opinion they are a lost cause.

Before knowing and understanding the MB reasons for why A happen there is a certain level of fogginess that is takes place that can be forgiven by the efforts put in to recover a marriage but if my H had a repeat PA now he is fully aware of how they start, how they work and how to prevent them then that for me is unforgivable.

Recovery and surviving the A also becomes harder because the WS would be fully aware of the MB affair busting tactics therefore making them somewhat less effective.

And finally if my H had another PA after he has now witnessed the full devastating effect the first PA has on me the there is no amount of love and EN meeting that would make me want to be married to him for one more second.

This is a POV regarding repeat offenders but serial cheaters are a whole other species that I don't understand and hopefully will never have to.

I wish some others with this problem in their lives would jump in here. Where is 15, she is rather level headed and has a good perspective on this issue.

NB28, As I said earlier, I had that very attitude. Over time, I had myself totally convinced that 1. I would never stay if she did it again, and 2. She would never do it again because she loved me and new how much damage her As had done the first time around.

I was blindsided so badly that OM's W called me and gave me evidence of the A and I convinced her that an A would never happen between my best friend and WW. It took me nearly a month before I started to realize that it was even possible, and another month to finally press the WW to come clean.

My affair-detector worked great 15 years ago. I knew she had an A but couldn't prove it for 5 years. Five years and many fights later I finally tapped the phone and set her up to talk about it, and bingo. Post DDay #1, and sometime during our false recovery, I turned the affair-detector off and turned to the blind/ignorant trust plan. It didn't work out so great. OM's W had her detector turned on, and it worked well. She knew in her heart, told me, and I couldn't believe it.

When I came to this sight 10 years ago, I cannot remember a single member here who described a repeat other than the typical serial cheater who never stopped or the typical WS who got back with AP after false recovery. If I had seen more of this, I would like to think I would have taken heed and read up on it a bit. Perhaps I could have learned a little bit, like you are not removed from the risk of an affair just because you have experienced it once in your marriage. Or your WS may know exactly what an A did to you and your marriage BUT that doesn't mean they can't do it again, as they have already proven their ability to be cruel and selfish.

I could go on, I am tired and rambling.

I have added my sig line, to remove the confusion. I get the 7-8-9-20 Affairs and now a 10 year long A, getting tired of correcting everyone

I think that is the million dollar question.

We have folks who do nothing right with respect to the plans, but their spouse ends her affair and comes home.

We have others, who do as near perfect as can be implementation of the plans to include all out exposure and his wife never even waivers from her affair.

Sometimes, scratch that, it's always about the wayward spouse. It goes back to boundaries as was said before. If they don't perceive a need for boundaries, why would they suddenly adopt them because they've "Hurt" (their quotes, not mine) someone else.

Someone without boundaries many not care enough about themselves or others to really care.

MB is about fixing marriages. I believe Dr H is pretty clear it doesn't work on seriously broken people.

We are all flawed, but some are just not qualified to be in a relationship.

DJ or not, I think even Dr H would tell you that maintaining a relationship with such folks is extremely difficult.

So to me, the question is no longer how to reach those people, but rather is there any evidence that leads one to believe they are a safe spouse.

I don't think the onus is on the BS, which has also been alluded to before. I think we continue to tell the BS to believe nothing from the wayward, and simply wait to see if she demonstrates the character necessary to be a safe spouse.

If she won't, you don't want her as your spouse anyway. They stepped out, they have to demonstrate they are willing to step back in, and demonstrate credibility.

I would still bother. Even if the current relationship is not salvageble anymore. Personal recovery and becoming a safe spouse to someone else in the future, plus growing to be a role model to their children are all equally important.


One possible wake-up call I know is nuclear exposure, of course. You are talking about WS fog, but there is also a BS fog, their inability to see and act, their cowardness way too often jeopardise the very first steps towards possible reconciliation.

Another possible wake-up call is actually BS announcing s/he is done and is filing for divorce.

Or these 2 together. This was my case. My H finally exposed my ongoing affair and said he wanted out.

This is exactly right!

Here's what Dr. Harley says about those who say they've done Marriage Builders and it didn't work:


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=313

(Discussion begins around 5:45, and he gets into this around 8:00.)

Often they say they have done it, but they have not. In addition to continued trauma for the betrayed spouse, this often results in a repeat affair, because the same conditions lead to an affair yet again!

Marcos,

I agree with that premise. However, Who at the time is the best judge of this. We went through this and I felt we did everything right. Looking back I accept the fact that we didn't. We most certainly didn't continue to practice it for life.

My point is this, when you are the only person judging your progress, you are being judged by a fool. I thought we did great, and we didn't. A coach or counselor, I assume, would be the best person to judge your progress??

If I were to give any advice here, it would be to continue to practice the things you learn here for the rest of your life. Don't become complacent in your marriage and do the "we're doing great, we don't need to keep doing this stuff", that is what we did and it brought me back in a bad way. I don't think this is stressed enough, it sure wasn't 10 years ago.

Dr. Willard Harley.

Yes, I get what you are saying. Very likely, at least for most of us, our best thinking screwed up our marriages, and we are usually the least qualified to tell if we are doing well or not!

I've learned to rely on 2x4s around here a lot, and I listen to Dr. Harley's radio show daily, and I read a lot of threads here, because all of them give me insight into how to tell how well my own marriage is doing and what to improve on.

And, yes, these things are absolutely changes FOR LIFE!

You want a good marriage FOR LIFE. You don't want to go back to the trauma of an affair EVER.

Dr. Harley and Joyce do all of these things in their own marriage. It's not something unusual that's done only in marriages that had an affair or as punishment for the affair or whatever. It's just what you do if you want a good marriage!

It's like a diet. You can go back to eating 5000 calories a day afterward if you want, but soon you'll have the exact same problem you started with. You have to adopt the principles for life if you want to be healthy.

I wasn't hear ten years ago, but I can't believe they were telling people you could do this just for a little while. Wow. I've heard stories -- but man, that takes the cake! How irresponsible.

Nobody ever said "for a little while", but not a whole lot of focus on continuation of, or it wasn't stressed that this should be continued. I imagine there was some suggestion of continuation just not a lot of emphasis on it. I guess I look back and think; I wish someone would have hit me with a 2x4 repeatedly until I realized that this could happen again. Ignorance, pure ignorance!

Senn, who is to judge? The experienced posters on this forum. In your case you didn't even do step one, which was to affair proof your marriage. It is not something you do for awhile and then slack off. If you get hit by a car playing in the road, do you have to read a book or go to a "counselor" to be reminded to keep your [censored] out of the road? Of course not. Because you cannot unring that bell. You cannot become UNENLIGHTENED after you are enlightened.

The first step after an affair is to take basic precautions like stopping the flirting and ending opposite sex friendships, eliminating the conditions that led to the affair. You don't forget that you got hit the last time you played in the road.

And yes, i understand that marriage builders was not discussed here 10 years ago. It wasn't discussed when I got here either. So why is my marriage recovered then? Because I took it upon ,myself to learn about marriage builders.

I have been here almost 11 years. My marriage is recovered. No one helped me when I got here. In fact I was called out and beat up by waywards when I arrived. NO ONE HELPED ME.

Well Mel,

Based off of your posts above, you don't have a whole lot of respect for me or anyone who has failed at rebuilding their marriage. Why are you bashing me on this when I clearly said we weren't the best judge of our own recovery. I am happy you recovered your marriage, that is great. I didn't, what is the point of that statement. The girl next to me in Science got an A and I got a B, because I missed a few homework assignments. If I had a different teacher I may have failed, I do have a different spouse. I hope you see my point.

I have accepted the fact that I didn't do everything right. As I have stressed and explained several times, I thought we did, now I know different. Why are you jumping on my crap for admitting to this?

AS for EPs and affair proofing our marriage, with the exception of the job situation we have gone leaps and bounds in this area. As I am seeing it, I am unable to continue any discussion or participation on this forum without her job being the focal point of the continued bashing I am receiving.

I'm sure I will hear the "We did it and it all worked out", but I will say this again; I cannot encourage or permit my WW to leave her job until there is an available position that will continue to at least keep us above water. WE Just spent our ENTIRE LIFE SAVINGS buying this house, we have two houses that we are paying mortgages, utilities, and insurance on. We are broke, and are just staying afloat. WE are trying to sell one house, but as everyone in the world knows, houses aren't selling. WE don't have the money at this point in our lives to just up and quite a job in an area that doesn't have a lot of jobs available. Now it would be easy to suggest to someone that that would be the best thing for them, but sit in my chair and then tell me how easy that decision would be. I am walking a tightrope here and I can't make rash decisions.

If you think my attitude is to save what I have over the marriage, you aren't to far off.

If we put ourselves in a position that I have to take a second job to make up the difference, would that be better? How about we get to the point we start loosing a car, then the house, would our marriage come out better. If our marriage fails and we lose everything, as many do, so what, at least we tried. If we lose everything to save the marriage, The marriage would almost certainly fail, as currently there isn't much of a marriage to save.

I have taken this advice, and we are taking steps toward changing our working arrangements, either I will work with her, or she will find another job, but that will not happen overnight, and to continue to toss the "you haven't done anything" bs at me is getting old.

Senn, you are a really nice guy and it is frustrating to watch this. But be assured no one is "bashing" you. We are simply pointing out the truth in the hopes you will GET IT.

Frankly, I have abandoned all hopes, but I can't just can't resist when I see you making endless excuses instead of taking decisive action. It is your right to make all the excuses you want, but it is also the prerogative of board members to point out that they are........excuses. And to point out the result of said tactics.

I find it bothersome that some don't think I am trying. I may not post them here but IMO I have taken measures and I must do more! Tell me what I am doing wrong? Cause I am bashing my head trying and making serious changes!

I am a listener, a follower, a slow learner. So please bear with me. I need all the advice I can get.

How can we tell you if you're not posting them?

CV

I answered on your thread, here ----> LINK

SiP and SiPW,

Just some food for thought when you get your undies in a bunch with Mel - she really isn't coming from a high perch. If you were to STOP and LISTEN you would see that she has made dang near every marriage mistake possible. You would see that some of those things only became resolved as recently as 2007.

Beneath that tough exterior, she's banging her head against the wall trying to lead people away from a hell she herself has lived.

Calm down, be still... and LISTEN.

I agree 1000%. I've had the pleasure of meeting ML IRL a couple of times and I can attest to the fact that she's the real deal and comes from a good heart. Her delivery can be tough but it's not out of a lofty place. It makes me crazy to see how much SHE gets bashed at times yet she carries on. Why?

Because she's good people and she cares. It's like a ministry in a way. She helps people heal their broken hearts.

We'd be lost around here without her. Besides who else can we tease unmercifully about their GBCW posts?

/TJ

Oh, I can't claim love for the tough exterior... But it's hard to not have mountains of respect for what is BENEATH it.

Thanks, friends.