We are 6 wks. Post D-Day, in MC and I have now scheduled my 1st. appt for IC. We have started some of the questionnaires from MB: Emotional Needs / Recreational Activities.
From what I do know, my WH was having an EA with an old girlfriend/friend. They had been in contact for the past 6+years. I discovered that he had put her phone number back in his phone after he told me that he deleted it months before. I have known over the years that they were keeping in touch as �friends�, but just didn�t believe that there was anything else. She lives in another state, but they managed to see each other whenever she came in town.
WH sent a NC email 1 week after D-Day after I demanded that he send it.
He divulged that he had two lunches with her (one of which I knew about and was actually invited to, but I declined. My husband went ahead and had lunch with her anyway even though I told him that I didn�t think it seemed right. He also took her out on our boat one day to talk. Our boat is very sacred to us. My H and I have been dealing with infertility for the past 2 and � years, and have been doing everything possible to start a family. I found out the day he took her out on our boat was the day that he had his first sperm analysis. I felt like someone ripped my guts out when I heard this� I am still devastated about it all. He assures me that he picked her up and then they went out and dropped anchor to �talk� about her divorce, because she was really upset. He told me that he was fishing while she was talking and then he dropped her back off at her mom�s condo (where she was staying while in town) and went out fishing the rest of the day by himself. Currently, our boat is FOR SALE!
*His reasons for seeing her, talking on the phone, texts, emails, etc. was that she was just a friend and he had a hard time telling her �no�, especially when she was going through difficult times. He said he didn�t think I had a right to tell him who he could or could not be friends with. He said that he felt uncomfortable and had butterflies a couple of times going to meet her, but he went ahead and did it anyway. I keep hearing from him that he has already told me everything, that it�s over and they were just friends and the only thing that happened between them physically were hugs. He said he hasn�t had any communication with her since he sent her the NC email.
*He did block her email address and deleted her as a contact after I asked him to do so. I really have no proof of their �friendship� being anymore that just a friendship, because he deleted EVERYTHING! He deleted texts, vm�s, call history, emails, etc. I have no idea what they talked about. He said that he has a hard time letting go of �friends� and assures me that they were only friends.
*I found old pictures and cards from her (before me) that he had saved. There were many pictures of them together and the cards from her said Love, All my love, Love Always and other sexual innuendoes. I asked him after D-Day if he was in love with her and he said, �NO�!!! I asked him if she was in love with him and with a softer tone he said, �I�don�t �know�. I burned all of the pictures and cards!
Our MC realizes that his friendships are extremely important to him. She asked him to distinguish which relationship was more important: The relationship with his wife or the relationships with his friends. He told our MC that they are both important. This of course brought me to tears�WH says that he was trying to pull away from the OW, because he felt like it was too risky. He said that he felt like his time was running out and he was afraid of getting caught.
*My husband has made a timeline for me, but I still feel that there are details that are being left out. There seems to be a lot of things that he can�t remember or doesn�t really have the answers to and he doesn�t even know why he did certain things and keeps telling me that it was a mistake and he wishes it never would have happened.
I had made a decision a couple of weeks ago to contact OW�s ex, because I wasn�t sure if he was aware of the situation...Here are the facts that he told me: *They are not divorced. They are living in separate residences, but �working� on their marriage. *He said that his W filed for divorce one year ago, which was 4 months after my husband took her on our boat to discuss her divorce, which was a lie! *He was aware of my H and that his wife told him they were just friends, but that they had dated in the past. He didn't agree or understand their "friendship".
I told my husband and he said he felt �duped�. He also said that he felt stupid for allowing her back into his life and that she made things seem worse than they really were. He said he was angry for her lies and felt that he had no one to blame but himself.
I have been reading here for a while now and have been wanted to post, but just not knowing where to start.
I am sorry that you find yourself here. There are many good people here to help you.
You say that you have been reading here for a while...so I think you know deep down inside that you need to expose to people of influence in your WH life. Tell MIL what is really going on and ask for her support.
Schedule a poly. I'm not sure that you have the whole story and trickle truth will only set you back to square one everytime.
Keep reading and posting. MB is a goldmine of information and experience.
Schedule a poly. sorry but i dont think a chat on a boat was a chat. from my unfortunate experience, dont belive him.
after i found out about OW1-the drama got better, baby momma (ow3 or whatever number) wrote a note about how sorry she was about our difficulty... blah blah, then i come to find out they just kissed once, then it was more- this trickling lasted over 3 months.
there are way to many here. I am sorry
you are in the right place- read everything on this site get SAA. do exactly what the vets tell you to do, dont hesitate, get a keylogger on the computer and a tracker on the phone, gather any new information you can find. i am sorry but i dont think this is the end of it.
How do I go about informing my in-laws about my WH and the EA? My MIL is in town right now and my FIL is home two states away. Should I send them both emails anyway, hoping that she will check her emails while she is here? She is wanting to see us this weekend.
Regarding the polygraph, I have already asked him about the polygraph and he became very angry and said that we need to figure out what our next step is if I wanted him to take a polygraph, because he has told me everything and he would not take a polygraph At first, it was the thought of the polygraph and then it was the cost. I had an address and cost (I made up the cost of $500), so he flipped out about the price. He said there was nothing physical at all except hugs. A part of me believes him, but a part of me thinks there was something more. We spoke with our MC (Psychologist) about the polygraph and she said that I'm not going to get what I'm looking for as far as answers, because they can only answer Yes or No to the questions. She also said that they aren't admissible in court and that she thinks the OW's BH is probably correct thinking that nothing happened between them physically. Our MC seems to believe that my H is telling the truth. For those of you that did do a polygraph, what happened and what was revealed to you that you didn't already know? Was your WS ok with taking a polygraph or did they fight it?
starfish, I don't have time to read your long post [if you want more responses, I would suggest cutting it back to about 3 to 5 parapraphs] but I do know that resistance to polygraphs is an indicator that he is lying. We have had so many instances of the WS suddenly spilling his guts when faced with a polygraph that I hardly know where to start. Your H's reaction indicates he is lying.
You will not recover until you get the full truth. You will wonder EVERY DAY if he is telling the truth and drag it out him a drib at a time. On the other hand, if you schedule a polygraph, 75% of them will confess the truth before the test.
The way we have had the most success is for the BS to just schedule to polygraph without warning. Then 2 days before the test hand him a list of your questions and give him one last chance [an amnesty period] to come clean. Then if he flunks the polygraph you will know he is still lying. What typically happens is that they confess before the test and then they pass the test. It is important that you follow through on the test throuhg.
A wayward who is SINCERE about recovering his marriage will GLADLY agree to take the polygraph becuase it is an opportunity to prove his veracity. A WS who runs frmo it is still lying. I am sorry.
Most marriage counselors are very inept and unqualified to save a marriage after an affair. They don't understand the dynamics of an affair and have no idea how to save a marriage. They have an 84% failure rate and have a higher personal divorce rate than the general population. I would NOT suggest getting advice on how to recover from an affair from a marriage counselor. They are notoriously destructive to marriages when there has been an affair.
We spoke with our MC (Psychologist) about the polygraph and she said that I'm not going to get what I'm looking for as far as answers, because they can only answer Yes or No to the questions.
Most MCs don't understand the dynamics of affairs and often do more damage than good, as evidenced by the above response.
There IS no recovery as long as the wayward is still hiding things. A poly is a GREAT tool to get the full truth...because often the WS will confess all before you even get there. And if they balk at taking one, that is very telling in and of itself.
I understand my post is long and I apologized at the very beginning. As I mentioned, I've been wanting to write for quite some time, but didn't know where to start. I'm sorry it's long, but I'm not sure how to make it shorter at this point and I'm at work. I agree that I will probably get more responses if it is shorter, but I'm actually happy with the responses that I'm receiving so far and will try to shorten later when I have some time.
We do not have any children to tell this to. We have been dealing with infertility for 2 & 1/2 years, so we don't have children (another painful subject).
How do I go about finding a qualified person to perform a polygraph in my area. Is there an organization that they should be a memeber of, etc? I'm not sure how to go about this and he thinks the polygraph is already out the window, so I'm not sure how to bring it up to him again. I'm afraid that he is going to be very angry.
I understand my post is long and I apologized at the very beginning. As I mentioned, I've been wanting to write for quite some time, but didn't know where to start. I'm sorry it's long, but I'm not sure how to make it shorter at this point and I'm at work. I agree that I will probably get more responses if it is shorter, but I'm actually happy with the responses that I'm receiving so far and will try to shorten later when I have some time.
You would definitely get more help if you shortened it up. We don't need 1/3rd of that information to get it, and most people don't have the time to read such a long post.
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How do I go about finding a qualified person to perform a polygraph in my area. Is there an organization that they should be a memeber of, etc? I'm not sure how to go about this and he thinks the polygraph is already out the window, so I'm not sure how to bring it up to him again. I'm afraid that he is going to be very angry.
Extraordinary precautions [one of which is to get all the truth] are not negotiable. I would not make this negotiable at all since getting the truth is the first step towards recovery. You won't recover if that doesn't happen, you will linger along in a state of doubt for years until you get the full truth. You will drag it out of him one drip at a time and every time that happens, you will be put right back to Day 1 of recovery until you can't stand it anymore. It is to die a death of a thousand cuts.
If he is "angry" because you need to be assured of the truth, then that is a further indicator he is hiding something. If he serious about repairing the damage he caused, he should be willing to do what it takes. His negative reaction is a huge red flag.
To find a polygraph tester, call your local police station and ask if they can refer someone. Former police officers are often polygraph testers.
Regarding the polygraph, I have already asked him about the polygraph and he became very angry and said that we need to figure out what our next step is if I wanted him to take a polygraph, because he has told me everything and he would not take a polygraph At first, it was the thought of the polygraph and then it was the cost. I had an address and cost (I made up the cost of $500), so he flipped out about the price.
he flipped out bc he is scared, if he were telling the truth no amount of money would stop him from proving it.
Originally Posted by starfish75
He said there was nothing physical at all except hugs. A part of me believes him, but a part of me thinks there was something more.
originally you said they were just chatting, see just chatting turns into hugs
Originally Posted by starfish75
We spoke with our MC (Psychologist) about the polygraph and she said that I'm not going to get what I'm looking for as far as answers, because they can only answer Yes or No to the questions. She also said that they aren't admissible in court and that she thinks the OW's BH is probably correct thinking that nothing happened between them physically. Our MC seems to believe that my H is telling the truth. For those of you that did do a polygraph, what happened and what was revealed to you that you didn't already know? Was your WS ok with taking a polygraph or did they fight it?
look at the link on plygraphy questions, i will post when i can find. my H gladly took the test and as Susie and ML said, he fessed up the rest before the test. so no more was found out, but after 3 mos of trickle i finally knew i had all of the information. It made me feel better and i knew for sure that that was all of it. I didnt do it to use in court, i did it for myself and h did it for me to make sure i knew he had told me everything. H was releved that he did it. you can ready my post read from feb to may and see why its important to do this.
Also -- Marriage Counselors cause more harm than good. They rarely have a plan for restoring romantic love to your marriage. That would be a question I would ask them.
Whats really bad about marriage counselors - and this has happened here - is that do not understand the dynamics of infidelity so they have no idea how to recover the marriage. They become destructive when they validate bad practices such as recommending no polygraph.
Most notable here is that the MC does not understand that starfish's WS's objection to the polygraph is an indicator he is lying. How come we know that and the MC does not?
I'm getting major anxiety just thinking about the polygraph, because I know how he reacted last time. How do I specifically go about it and how do I tell my H about the polygraph? I have contacted the local police dept. to see if they can refer me to a reputable company. I'm so scared and I don't know what kind of questions to ask him. Are there specific questions that I should be asking? He swears to me that nothing happened on the boat. I don't think anything happened during their lunches, because he only had 1 hr. and he met OW, her sister and her sister's daughter for one of the two lunches. The only thing I'm really concerned about is the boat day.
I'm getting major anxiety just thinking about the polygraph, because I know how he reacted last time. How do I specifically go about it and how do I tell my H about the polygraph? I have contacted the local police dept. to see if they can refer me to a reputable company. I'm so scared and I don't know what kind of questions to ask him. Are there specific questions that I should be asking? He swears to me that nothing happened on the boat. I don't think anything happened during their lunches, because he only had 1 hr. and he met OW, her sister and her sister's daughter for one of the two lunches. The only thing I'm really concerned about is the boat day.
Make the appointment for the polygraph first!!
You tell him that in order to go forward you must be assured that he is telling the truth. This is the only way you can even consider forgiving him. Explain that don't believe large portions of his story but are giving him an opportunity to prove his veracity. Tell him: "this is what it will take to prove to me you are being truthful. I have scheduled a polygraph for this Thursday at XXXXX. I have composed a list of questions that I need truthful answers to in ADVANCE of the polygraph. I consdier this an amnesty period. If you answer all of these questions truthfully NOW and pass the polygraph, I can consider forgiving you for your affair. But in order to do this, I must have all the truth."
I would make up a list of questions and give him 24 hours to answer them. Ask if he had sex with the OW on the boat or at their lunches. [having nooners is very common] Ask any other questions, such as if he has had other affairs.
WH:[outraged] I can't believe you don't trust me!! You don't trust me, do you??
starfish: no, I do not. But passing the polygraph will help me start to trust to you more. You do want me to trust you, don't you? I am giving you a great opportunity to start to earn trust
WH: but we can't afford it!!
starfish: it is cheaper than a divorce and that is where we are headed if I don't feel safe in this marriage. This is one of the things that will help me feel safe
Yes, call the inlaws and call the OW's mother. Ask the OW's mother to keep her away from your husband.
Don't forewarn your husband. Just ask his mother to speak to him about acting like low down trash. If my son behaved in such a despicable manner I would give that boy a piece of my mind!!
I will definitely call my MIL tonight. Is there something in particular I can ask her to help me with regarding WH? I'm not sure I can ask her to talk down to him like trash. She knows that we are in MC and working on our marriage. I'm just not sure what to ask her exactly... See, the problem is that my in-laws attended her wedding and I think they truly believe that she is a friend of my H and their family. They don't see her and I'm not sure they speak with her, but I want to make sure that NC goes for the whole family.
"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.
"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.
"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is will affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.
"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.
"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."
I love this letter and actually gave it to him a few weeks ago. He said her really liked the letter and understood, but I haven't received much more information. He is standing behind what he has already told me.
I will definitely call my MIL tonight. Is there something in particular I can ask her to help me with regarding WH? I'm not sure I can ask her to talk down to him like trash. She knows that we are in MC and working on our marriage. I'm just not sure what to ask her exactly... See, the problem is that my in-laws attended her wedding and I think they truly believe that she is a friend of my H and their family. They don't see her and I'm not sure they speak with her, but I want to make sure that NC goes for the whole family.
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ok, I did not suggest she talk down to him like trash. He has behaved like trailer trash and she will speak to him in the manner she chooses. My suggestion is that you ask her to speak to him and try to help him out.
And be sure and call the OW's mother and let her know about the affair.
Welcome to MB and sorry to see you here. I can share that my WH refused during MC to take a polygragh and he stated it is bc he freaks out and gets to nervous. Was that the real reason, no, of course he was lying and still in contact.
WS's get very creative to get there crack hit. I agree with the others, there are many red flags here and most likely you are in false recovery.
The vets are giving you good advice; listen to them. My only contribution is some editing, and it's still pretty long...
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We are 6 wks. Post D-Day, in marital counseling and I�m working on getting myself into IC. We have started some of the questionnaires from MB and I�m waiting on a few books that I ordered from MB as well to incorporate into our recovery/reconciliation.
My husband and I married in 2007 and the OW married about a year after we did. My H and I have been dealing with infertility for the past 2 and � years, and have been doing everything possible to start a family.
My WH was having an EA with an old girlfriend/friend. They had been in contact for the past 6+years. I discovered that he had put her phone number back in his phone after he told me that he deleted it months before.
On D-Day, I finally put my foot down and told WH that it was either her or me. He sent her a NC email and cc: me. A few days later she responded to both of us. Her response really pissed me off, because he asked her to respect our relationship and NC and she still made contact.
He divulged that he had two lunches with her. He also took her out on our boat one day to talk. He assures me that he picked her up and then they went out and dropped anchor to �talk� about her divorce, because she was really upset.
I have been checking our cell phone bill to verify that contact has ended and he has given me his passwords for his personal email, but we have private log-ins at work and I can�t check his emails there. He did block her email address and deleted her as a contact after I asked him to do so.
His reasons for seeing her, talking on the phone, texting, emailing, etc. was that she was just a friend and he had a hard time telling her �no�, especially when she was going through difficult times.
I keep hearing from him that he has already told me everything, that it�s over and they were just friends and the only thing that happened between them physically were hugs. He said he hasn�t had any communication with her since he sent her the NC email. He does seem truly remorseful at times and other times he seems like he doesn�t understand how we can�t just move beyond all of this.
Our MC is working with us and trying to get to the bottom of his actions. He has agreed that he hasn�t been good about meeting my emotional needs and has been doing much better. I�m just trying to figure out why all of this happened. I realize that he had poor boundaries or maybe at times no boundaries. He really is trying, but I�m just so scared that things will eventually go back to the way they were after things cool off.
Our MC asked him to distinguish which relationship was more important: The relationship with his wife or the relationships with his friends. He told our MC that they are both important. This of course brought me to tears.
WH says that he was trying to pull away from the OW, because he felt like it was too risky. He said that he felt like his time was running out and he was afraid of getting caught. I don�t get this either, because according to the phone records, they were in contact more during this time that he says he was trying to �pull away�.
My husband has made a timeline for me, but I still feel that there are details that are being left out. There seems to be a lot of things that he can�t remember or doesn�t really have the answers to and he doesn�t even know why he did certain things and keeps telling me that it was a mistake and he wishes it never would have happened.
He has been omitting information from me for a long time. I have been put in this situation a few times and I just don�t understand how I�m so honest and open about my past and he isn�t or doesn�t feel that it is important.
A couple of weeks ago I contacted OW�s ex. He told me they are not divorced. They are living in separate residences, but �working� on their marriage. He said that his W filed for divorce one year ago, which was 4 months after my husband took her on our boat to discuss her divorce. He said that his wife did mention a couple of lunches with my husband while she was in town and eventually divulged the boating day. He said I could call him if anything else came up or needed him to find out more information.
I told WH and he wasn�t upset at all, but he was in shock! I asked him if it was worth it and he said, �Absolutely NOT�It pissed off my wife and NO WAY was it worth this!!!� At times, he said he felt like it was ok, but he would never do it again and wishes he could turn back the hands of time. He said that watching my pain and him feeling like $#@* sucks!
My husband started reading �Not Just Friends�, but hasn�t gotten very far. I can�t force him to read it, but thought it would be good for him to and help him to understand what I�m going through and why. It also has areas for him in the book as well in relation to setting healthy boundaries.
My MIL is in town this week and wants to see us this weekend. His parents know that we are in MC for communication problems, but that is all that they know. It has been 6 wks. Post D-Day and I am feeling torn if I should tell her or if I should just let her believe that we are having communication problems.
Hopefully some of you will have some advice or direction for me. This has been an extremely painful experience. I still sometimes think I'm going to wake up from this awful nightmare!
The MC agreed with my H that he shouldn't take it if he got that nervous. By the time he agreed in 2008, I already had the information I needed and the rest such as never having SF I didn't believe so I didn't need the polygraph. By then I had seen too much on MB forums to know that wasn't the truth.
The MC was 2005/2006 and very ineffective. MB is the only tool that has helped.
beginagain: Did your H take the polygraph and did he pass?
starfish, we have many marriages that were greatly helped with polygraphs. The test helped by either forcing a reluctant WS to spill his guts and/or it helped the marriage when the WS passed the test. I have a strong feeling your H is still lying about something and when that happens recovery is impossible. It is impossible because you will SENSE something is wrong and by continuing to lie, he will remain foggy. You can't restore trust as long as he has secrets with skanky, nor can he redeem himself.
By insisting on a polygraph you send the message that you have STANDARDS and he had better live up to them if he wants to remain married. You need to RAISE your standards very high if you want to save this marriage. If you lower you standards, he will just live down to your expectations and you will end up with a crippled marriage.
Thank you for all of your advice and support! I'm truly thankful!!!
I just got off of the phone with my MIL and she is devastated. She said she knew something was going on, but she wasn't sure what it was. She said that I have her support and she loves me very much. She doesn't understand it either and said that the last contact they had with OW was at her wedding. She said there will be no contact with them and OW and she is truly sorry and understands that I need to know the facts before I can move forward.
Have you had sexual relations with other women since marriage to starfish75?
reading, the questions she is formulating right now are the written questions she is giving him before the test. When she sets up the test, the polygrapher will help her refine it and different questions will be devised.
Ok, thanks for the tips! I haven't contacted OW's mom yet. Not sure how to get in touch with her. She lives in a gated condo development.
I spoke with my FIL and he was also in shock and thanked me over and over again for calling, he was so sorry that his son had put me through this and that he loves me... I'm his girl! He walked me down the isle at our wedding. He asked me what I know to be true and what things I do not know. I think he's going to try to help get WH to come clean. He said he would do whatever I wanted him to do and asked me if I would tell H that we spoke or if I wanted him to talk to him about our conversation. I told my FIL that he could talk to his son about our conversation. Thought it might be better that way...
Regarding the disclosure that happened last night. His dad is going to be calling him soon to let him know that we spoke. How do I react if he is mad or asks me why I told his parents?
I also contacted a place that performs polygraphs this morning. The cost is $400.00 and they said it's better to ask one question, because the results greatly improved and narrowed down more. So, she said that asking if there were any sexual relations between WH and OW is probably going to be the best question to ask if this is the most important thing that I am wanting to know. I just wish I could ask more questions. Maybe I'll use my own questions and make him believe that there will be multiple questions. The only appt's they have available are next week (evenings) or next Saturday. We have an appt. with our MC on Thursday this week. Should I bring it up again to our MC to let her know that this is very important to me? I was thinking that I would call her. I need to know that she will support me with my wishes and that this is what I need to possibly forgive him and begin moving forward with the rebuilding of our marriage.
How do I bring this up to WH and when is a good time, as we won't be able to even be seen until next week....?
$400 seems like a lot of money, but I was referred to a Dr. that trained someone with the police dept. and the Dr. referred me to this place. The Dr. said he is booked for the next two weeks and his fees are $500. Do you think there is another repubable place that I might be able to find that is less money or is this price pretty standard?
I also contacted a place that performs polygraphs this morning. The cost is $400.00 and they said it's better to ask one question, because the results greatly improved and narrowed down more. So, she said that asking if there were any sexual relations between WH and OW is probably going to be the best question to ask if this is the most important thing that I am wanting to know. I just wish I could ask more questions. Maybe I'll use my own questions and make him believe that there will be multiple questions.
That is one of the reasons you hand him a full list of questions 2 days beforehand.
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The only appt's they have available are next week (evenings) or next Saturday. We have an appt. with our MC on Thursday this week. Should I bring it up again to our MC to let her know that this is very important to me? I was thinking that I would call her. I need to know that she will support me with my wishes and that this is what I need to possibly forgive him and begin moving forward with the rebuilding of our marriage.
Dont' bring it up to your MC again. She has told you she doesn't support a polygraph and she can only serve to sabotage your plans. Tell her afterwards if you want. But don't tell her before hand. I am really concerned that this MC. For example, why didn't SHE tell you to expose the affair if that is one of the first steps in recovery? It is clear to me she doesn't know what she is doing.
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How do I bring this up to WH and when is a good time, as we won't be able to even be seen until next week....?
Bring it up 2 days before the scheduled polygraph.
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$400 seems like a lot of money, but I was referred to a Dr. that trained someone with the police dept. and the Dr. referred me to this place. The Dr. said he is booked for the next two weeks and his fees are $500. Do you think there is another repubable place that I might be able to find that is less money or is this price pretty standard?
The usual price is around $600, so this is a good price.
Regarding the disclosure that happened last night. His dad is going to be calling him soon to let him know that we spoke. How do I react if he is mad or asks me why I told his parents?
I have a feeling your husband is going to be mad because he is still very foggy. Let him know that you are willing to give to him an opportunity to earn your forgiveness for PUTTING YOU IN THAT POSITION IN THE FIRST PLACE. Tell him you are so sorry he put you in that position but you will not keep secrets from your families. Everyone should know about his affair.
And GET AHOLD OF THE OW's mother today before your husband finds out. You want to deal with one explosion, not several.
Ok, made the appt. for the polygraph next Tuesday evening. We have appt. with MC tomorrow night, so I won't say anything to her then. I'm trying to get into see an IC before then and I will talk to the IC about the polygraph and hopefully I will feel more confident from the new therapist.
I haven't been able to contact the OW's Mom yet. Still working on that. As far as my family, my sister knows, my dad is passed and my sister and I have agreed that we cannot tell my mom. My mom can be very bitter, judgemental and she will hold a grudge for the rest of her life. I can assure you that this will not be a good idea. My mom is going through a lot of her own right now and I just can't talk to her about it right now. She is aware that we are in MC for communication issues, but that is it. I was married before and my mom became involved and it was a disaster! I just can't do that right now. I will literally be driving myself to the looney bin if I have to deal with my mom and this situation too.
I'm planning on telling WH about the scheduled polygraph on Sunday (2 days before the test). I'm working on my questions now, but I'm just hoping that I can be strong when I present that I have scheduled an appt. I don't want to give in this time. It's only fair that I know the TRUTH once and for all.
I edited my original post due to the length. Trying to make it even shorter.
perfect! you had a pretty good list working yesterday (this is the list for your H) why dont you repost those. the polygrapher will help you with the test questions.
it was hard for me to present i think in my gut i knew i was going to hear more, but i also knew that i would never have been ok if i didnt go thru with it.
Starfish, an IC knows even less about marriages than a marriage counselor. An IC is not even remotely qualified to help you with your marriage. I view a visit to an IC as a huge distraction at a time when all of your focus should be on saving your marriage.
Please focus on your marriage for now! If you need advice that you feel you are not getting here, then try emailing Dr Harley at the radio station. He will read and answer your email on his show.
Some of the questions that I have for WH to answer before polygraph: (I received some great suggestions from others and also have some of my own)...
Did you have sex with OW on our boat?
Did you kiss or have any other sexual relations with OW on our boat?
Did you have sex with OW during your lunches?
Did you kiss or have any other sexual relations with OW during your lunches?
Did you meet OW on any occasion other than the two lunches and one boat day?
Since D-Day, have you been in contact with OW by email, text, phone?
Have you had any sexual relations with OW at any point during our marriage?
Have you ever, at any time, in any place, during the entire course of your marital relationship, touched another woman's body in a manner that your wife would object to if she were to have caught you doing it?
Has your mouth ever sexually touched any part of another woman's body during your marriage?
Has your P ever touched any part of another woman's body during your marriage?
Has another woman's mouth ever sexually touched any part of your body during your marriage?
Has another woman's hand or body part ever touched any part of your body during our marriage?
Have you had any sexual interactions with any other woman in our marital home?
Have there been any "other women" besides OW before, during and or after d-day?
Besides the two lunches and one day on the boat that your wife already knows about, have there been any other in person meetings of any kind during the course of your marriage?
Have you answered all of your wife's questions with complete and truthful responses?
If your WH continues to bluster or flat out refuses the polygraph when you tell him Sunday, what will your response be? Are you willing to make this a firm boundary?
MelodyLane: I am having MAJOR anxiety and had to go to see my doctor today who prescribed me AD and X. I need to talk with a professional in person to help me with the anxiety and anger that I have. I am focusing on my marriage and that is the ONLY thing that I'm focusing on. But, I also need to be ok with me. WH can't fix me...I'm trying to keep myself healthy, so I'm able to do what I can to get through the toughest battle of my life!
I wish I didn't have to go through any of this... I wish I didn't need to be here... I wish I didn't need to see my doctor... I wish I didn't need to see psychologists, counselors, marriage counselors, etc. I wish I didn't have to ask my husband to take a polygraph... I wish my husband would have never wrecked my world... I wish I could wake up from this nightmare...
Thank you for all of your support...all of you! I am very thankful! I'm taking your advice and listening, but I'm trying to do what I can to take care of myself too.
I have no idea what I will say if he refuses the polygraph again. If you all have any ideas, please let me know. I've been taking notes and I am paying attention and doing everything that I can. I'm human, I make mistakes, but I'm trying to do what I can. I'm exhausted and drained, but still fighting and doing what I can to fight for my marriage. I need to know that he is being 100% honest with me. I cannot get into the recovery mode too far and then have the wound ripped open again after discovering something else. I need to get through the field of landmines now...sooner than later. I want to walk through all of the $hit at once, so I can finally start to work towards recovery.
Sf, that is great that you got on anti-depressants! The things we are telling you to do now are the things that will alleviate your stress in the future by getting all the truth out now. There is nothing more stressful than wondering if your WS has been completely honest with you. It is like dying a death of a thousand cuts.
You are doing a great job!
So let's discuss what you will have if your husband refuses to take the polygraph? You will have a husband that you KNOW is lying. Are you willing to stay with him under those conditions? Because what you will essentially have is a WS who refuses to do what is necessary to help you heal. Under those conditions, Harley would recommend Plan B until he does become willing. Think on that...
well i think you have to answer that for yourself.
If he refuses are you going to be comfortable working toward recovering your M?
now if he says ok then come out with more crap before you go on tuesday, how will you react?
or if he takes in an fails what are you going to do?
these are all questions that will come up, i am sorry.
you have 5 day to regroup. please get some sleep, drink a ton of water and try to breathe.
i agree with you about getting it all out at once, listen the A's that my H had were bad, but what i went thru for months was also bad. the crazy thing is that i asked him to hit me with the bus 3xx.
I have thought about it and plan on telling him that it is a deal breaker if he doesn't follow through with the polygraph. I have had a major blindsided blow to my ego and going to ask him if he is willing to take a blow to his own in order to help me heal. For once in your life, be selfless and do what is right. I am giving you the opportunity to earn back some trust. I'll see how it goes from there. I'm not sure what to do if he throws a fit or contests it.
I have thought about it and plan on telling him that it is a deal breaker if he doesn't follow through with the polygraph. I have had a major blindsided blow to my ego and going to ask him if he is willing to take a blow to his own in order to help me heal. For once in your life, be selfless and do what is right. I am giving you the opportunity to earn back some trust. I'll see how it goes from there. I'm not sure what to do if he throws a fit or contests it.
Star. It sounds like your WH wants to recover and commit to the marriage. It also sounds like he may be trying to do this without all the truth being revealed.
Don't be surprised if he fights the poly. Yes it will mean that he is lying...but it does not mean that you have to decide to Plan B on the spot. Tell him it is a deal breaker for you. Then give him time to read the questions and come clean. Give yourself time to figure out what actions you want to take.
You will feel less stress as you take more control of your life and give yourself time to think things through.
I am hoping that your WH will make the right decision.
I have thought about it and plan on telling him that it is a deal breaker if he doesn't follow through with the polygraph. I have had a major blindsided blow to my ego and going to ask him if he is willing to take a blow to his own in order to help me heal. For once in your life, be selfless and do what is right. I am giving you the opportunity to earn back some trust. I'll see how it goes from there. I'm not sure what to do if he throws a fit or contests it.
But, it is not a blow to his ego to give you the truth. That is the obligation of any truly remorseful person who wants to make his victim whole. I would frame it like this: "I am willing to let you earn my forgiveness if you do certain things. But I will not stay in a marriage where I have to wonder if you have told me the truth. I am willing to give you an opportunity to prove your veracity by taking a polygraph. I have set up an appointment with a polygraph tester for Tuesday. I will give you one last chance to come clean before the test by answering these questions. I consider this an amnesty but I fully expect that you will pass the polygraph after answering these questions. If you don't pass the test, I will reconsidr my future in this marriage becuase I know that recovery is impossible without honesty. "
If he throws a fit, just politely say: "I consider your refusal to take the test an indicator that you have something to hide. You have given me your answer." Then walk out of the room. His refusal is an indication that a) he is still lying and b) he is not serious about recovering your marriage.
Pokerface: I couldn't agree with you more. I'm just doing everything I can possibly think of to get him to open up to me! The tears are streaming down my face right now. I love him with everything that I have and my heart and mind are completely broken and shattered. I just don't know what else I can do or say!!! I'm beyond words... Why can't he just come clean if there is something else? I am already so hurt, that I don't know if anything else would surprise me. I just want the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth!
I'm so heartbroken! We have been dealing with infertility and I'm not getting any younger. This has put an ax into our plans and I'm just devastated!!! Will I ever have a baby/family to call my own? The pain is unbearable!!!
[ Don't be surprised if he fights the poly. Yes it will mean that he is lying...but it does not mean that you have to decide to Plan B on the spot. Tell him it is a deal breaker for you. Then give him time to read the questions and come clean. Give yourself time to figure out what actions you want to take.
To pokerface's point, you need to emphasize this is a deal breaker. And it is because your marriage can't recover as long as he withholds truth or you think he MIGHT be doing so. So while you make it clear that this is a deal breaker, it will take 10 days to 2 weeks to implement Plan B. It would start with asking him to move out. And he does need to move out if he doesn't come clean. Just tell him that is where this is going.
I am hopeful that he will come clean once he BELIEVES you are serious. He won't believe it at first so you are going to have to hold your ground and NOT WAVER. The future of your marriage is dependent upon you hanging tough and being resolved.
I'm trying to think of all the resistance I might get from him and to appropriately respond...I want to make sure that I remain calm, strong, secure, determined, adament and focused. I need a plan, so I'm taking notes. Should I speak freely to him or should I read what I wrote?
I am hopeful that he will come clean once he BELIEVES you are serious. He won't believe it at first so you are going to have to hold your ground and NOT WAVER. The future of your marriage is dependent upon you hanging tough and being resolved.
AMEN.
(((Star))) I remember feeling exactly as you are now and I kept trying to educate and convince my FWH that I needed the TRUTH. I kept trying to convince him that he could not possibly hurt me any more than he already has.
It didn't work. I had to get tough strong and I had to mean it.
This will make you laugh... my FWH refused a poly on "ethical" reasons. Apparently sneaking around with one of the mothers was not breaking any ethical principles.
You are going to be fine Star. Be prepared for your WH to refuse until he sees that you are serious. Be cool, calm, and in control.
I'm going to do my best to memorize this... It's perfect!!! Thank you do much!!!
So when he goes crazy and tries to throw you off balance, be prepared with a simple statement:
WH: I can't believe you would ask me to do such a thing!!! you don't trust me!!! That is ridiculous! You are punishing me!!
starfish: so your answer is no? I guess I have my answer, don't I? Thank you.
then leave the room.
But make sure you leave the list of questions with him. Don't fight, don't beg, don't plead. Just say thank you, I guess I have my answer, don't I? I predict he will rant, rave and bully you in order to avoid this. That is how a typical wayward acts when they are being dishonest and are being held accountable. BE PREPARED for a drama queen act and be prepared to STAND FAST!
Thank you so much!!! I wish I could hug you both! I am going to give it my all... and yes, I can relate with your past feelings. I am so very thankful for your support here... more than you will ever know!!!
Thank you so much!!! I wish I could hug you both! I am going to give it my all... and yes, I can relate with your past feelings. I am so very thankful for your support here... more than you will ever know!!!
hugs to you, starfish!! I know it is anxiety provoking NOW, but doing this will alleviate enormous anxiety in the FUTURE. It is short term anxiety for long term PEACE. Versus short term anxiety for long term anxiety if you don't do this. This way you get PEACE one way or the other. With him or without him. But I STRONGLY PREDICT it will be with him. You just have to show him you are serious! And I know you can do it! You are a strong, determined woman...
We have one BW who is in a very solid, happy marriage today because she set forth very specific standards for her WH. He ranted, raved, and went crazy for 2 days. She insisted he needed to pack and leave that weekend if he did not comply. She explained that her conditions were not negotiable. So sorry! After 2 days of trying to scare her into submission, he figured out she was DEAD SERIOUS and he agreed to her all her conditions. They are in a very happy marriage today. But if she had not held him to those non-negotiable conditions he would still be working with the OW today and they would likely be split up by now.
That is what you are facing. I suspect he is used to getting his way when he rants and raves a little. You just can't sacrifice your mental health and your peace of mind for the sake of the tantrum of a wayward. Don't even think about doing it.
Thank you so much.... I know you are right. I am definitely experiencing a lot of anxiety again. It's strange how you feel ok for a couple of days (spending time with WH) and then it will hit me that I'm not so sure about everything. I'm not sure about what he is telling me to be true. I'm just so nervous about having a conversation with him about it, but I still have a few days to get myself together. I am usually a very strong woman, however, I haven't been feeling that way lately. I'm usually a very strong woman, but lately I feel so defeated and deflated. I know I'm still in there somewhere, but it's just so hard to find her at times... I hope this makes sense. I just want to have faith again and right now I feel so broken.
I am definitely seeing the truth and yes, PEACE is absolutely what I desire. I want to feel content again and know that I have the facts, so I can begin the process of rebuilding our marriage. I will stand my ground and I have taken lots of notes, so I'll be prepared for our conversation this Sunday.
Of course you feel this way Star. Everything that you believed about your life has been shattered and you feel like you have no control because of the unknowns.
Seriously, I can remember considering if I should commit myself to the psych ward. But once I decided on my plan, I felt better and stronger. Whenever I was hit by doubt, I stuck to my plan.
Remember, you don't have to make any decisions about whether to stay in the marriage right now and that gives you control. Just keep working the Plan. Give it time to work. Take each day one at a time. Cool and calm.
Saw my IC today and you'll never believe who was sitting in the waiting room when I was leaving... My MIL! OMG!!! She is in town from out of state and had a couple dr.'s appt's. I disclosed everything to her two nights ago. Both of us saw each other and our jaws dropped!! She said she was planning on calling me to tell me about this IC, because she thought she might be good for me. She is familiar with MB and Creighton Model (infertility). Anyway, my MIL hugged me so tight and we just cried. She said she didn't want to lose me and asked me if I could forgive her son...? I told her that it's going to take some time and he still has questions to answer. About that time, our IC came out and saw us both together and she was in shock! She apologized and said nothing like this has ever happened before. My MIL and I assured her that we didn't have a problem with it at all.... Crazy coincidence or fate? Very strange morning!!!
very strange!! your mil lives out of state and see the same IC????
stick your plan, i know its hard, but you had a good day and i am sure you are feeling a bit empowered. you got initial meeting with MIL over in a very weird situation.
do you think she told you H about the meeting?
did you tell her about the poly?
Originally Posted by pokerface
Remember, you don't have to make any decisions about whether to stay in the marriage right now and that gives you control. Just keep working the Plan. Give it time to work. Take each day one at a time. Cool and calm.
please remember this its what got me thru many months
Thank you so much Chickadee for your quote again... I really like it!
No, I didn't tell my MIL about the poly, but did mention it quickly to my FIL. I'm getting mixed reviews about it from the close friends that I have shared it with. Most understand my need to know the truth and wanting it to move forward, but there are others who tell me that the thought would scare the $hit out of them whether they had something to hide or not.
I did tell my WH about my meeting today with his mom at the IC's office. He thought it was bizarre, but never asked what we discussed. His mom and dad both spoke with him today, but didn't bring up what they know yet.
Thank you so much Chickadee for your quote again... I really like it!
No, I didn't tell my MIL about the poly, but did mention it quickly to my FIL. I'm getting mixed reviews about it from the close friends that I have shared it with. Most understand my need to know the truth and wanting it to move forward, but there are others who tell me that the thought would scare the $hit out of them whether they had something to hide or not.
Well, it is much more scary to someone who is hiding the truth. But it is cathartic for one who is trying to do everything to make up for the damage he has done.
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I did tell my WH about my meeting today with his mom at the IC's office. He thought it was bizarre, but never asked what we discussed. His mom and dad both spoke with him today, but didn't bring up what they know yet.
I am so very disappointed to hear this. I was hoping they would support your marriage. Do they plan on telling him AT ALL? If so, when? If they won't do it, then you should tell him this weekend, starfish. The entire purpose of exposure will have been completely negated and lost if they won't discuss the affair with him.
The purpose of exposure is not to spread idle gossip and whisper behind his back, but to bring the affair out into the open to begin healing. Moss does not grow well in sunlight!
His mom told me yesterday that she was going to let his dad speak with him, because he is better with talking to their sons. My FIL mentioned that he needed some time to process everything. I told him on Wednesday evening and we have plans with his Mom for dinner tonight. His dad used to do mediation for the district, but I'm not sure when he is going to talk to him. I figured he would have done it by now...
Last night was a rough night after MC. Something came up in MC that really upset me. He told me that he would have liked to have gone to OW's step-dad's funeral years back, but said he didn't because we got into a fight about it. He remembers the name of the funeral home, location, etc., but there are lots of other things that he can't remember!!!! I told him that my dad passed away 3 years ago and he didn't come to my dad's funeral. He said that was because he lived out of state, never met him and someone needed to stay home and take care of the dogs! Really? Are you f*ing serious? It wasn't a good night....lots of yelling and crying, etc. I am having some guilt for feeling so out of control last night, but my anger got the best of me. I guess I've been holding in the anger. I was pointing my finger at WH and yelling at him. I just don't feel good about the way I reacted. My emotions definitely go the best of me.
This morning he told me that he is TRULY REMORSEFUL for what he has done. We have been talking lately about the difference between regret and remorse. I asked him if he was just saying that because he felt like it was what he was supposed to say. He said, no that according to the definition, it is how he feels. Then, he tells me that he is SO SORRY and can't stand to see me in so much pain and knows that it is his fault. He said he should have listened to me 3 years ago when I told him it wasn't a good idea for him to be talking to OW.
He said that was because he lived out of state, never met him and someone needed to stay home and take care of the dogs! Really? Are you f*ing serious? It wasn't a good night....lots of yelling and crying, etc. I am having some guilt for feeling so out of control last night, but my anger got the best of me. I guess I've been holding in the anger. I was pointing my finger at WH and yelling at him. I just don't feel good about the way I reacted. My emotions definitely go the best of me.
This is why the Harleys NEVER counsel couples in conflict together. It is BAD for the marriage. At a time when you should be focusing on rebuilding your lovebanks, you are eroding the very little you have left in counseling with these lovebusting sessions. You went to counseling and came away more angry and disgusted than when you went in. Do you realize how bad that is for your marriage?
It is real important that you start rebuilding the love in your marriage. Can you skip counseling for a few months until you have recovered your marriage?
Instead of going to counseling and lovebusting each other for an hour, can you do something productive instead? Like going out for a nice romantic dinner and a walk in the park afterwards?
THAT is the kind of activity it will take to rebuild the romantic love in your marriage. It takes 20+ hours of undivided attention to create romantic love in a marriage that has been damaged by an affair.
Here is what Harley says:
Originally Posted by Dr Harley
"The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide."
I was pointing my finger at WH and yelling at him. I just don't feel good about the way I reacted.
This is why you were told this:
Originally Posted by Lexxxy
Also -- Marriage Counselors cause more harm than good. They rarely have a plan for restoring romantic love to your marriage. That would be a question I would ask them.
Marriage Builders has a specific plan.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Whats really bad about marriage counselors - and this has happened here - is that do not understand the dynamics of infidelity so they have no idea how to recover the marriage. They become destructive when they validate bad practices such as recommending no polygraph.
Most notable here is that the MC does not understand that starfish's WS's objection to the polygraph is an indicator he is lying. How come we know that and the MC does not?
Think about it. The MC last night ended in AO (angry outburst) and hurt feelings. Both of you are now feeling bad. I don't see any good that came out of it. Where is the plan to restore the romantic love?
And your MC just sat there and let you BATTLE each other? How WRONG is that?
Do you see what Melody described? Wouldn't it have been more productive to have a nice dinner (the cost of your MC session!) and flirt with each other?
Right now you need to be focusing on meeting each others emotional needs IN A PLEASANT AND POSTIVE way! Your husband needs to know that he can be forgiven. That you are not going to dwell on this forever. Its absolutely your right to get your questions anwered -- but its not going to be the topic every night. He will start to dread his time with you instead of looking forward to it.
And you need to have some FUN. What do both of you enjoy doing? What can you plan for this weekend? He might be thrilled to hear that he doesn't have to go back to MC....
No, I didn't tell my MIL about the poly, but did mention it quickly to my FIL. I'm getting mixed reviews about it from the close friends that I have shared it with. Most understand my need to know the truth and wanting it to move forward, but there are others who tell me that the thought would scare the $hit out of them whether they had something to hide or not.
I think the possibility of spending the rest of my life wondering what the truth really was...would scare the $hit out of ME. I don't think I could recover in that instance.
No, the arguing didn't happen until we got home. We had MC, then went out to dinner and then came home. It's my fault, I asked him about why he felt the need to go to OW's dad's funeral and not my dad's funeral. I asked him after he turned out the lights to go to bed. I shouldn't have brought it up right then, but it was on my mind and I was hurt.
It's so hard, because we had been doing lots of things together and having fun and really bonding in the past few weeks. We bond and meet each other's emotional needs and then he thinks that everything is fine...we are moving forward and he doesn't want to go back to address the affair. He doesn't like the rollercoaster. How am I supposed to be nice, meet his needs and then not get any answers? I'm not getting the answers that I'm needing. I don't remember and I forget are not acceptable answers. The other thing I get is that I have already told you everything! He thinks that we need to move forward and leave that stuff in the past. He doesn't understand why we can't just move forward?
I get what you are saying about the things that I need to be doing, but I'm not sure what I need to be doing at this very moment. I just finished telling his parents (exposure) and getting ready to bring up the poly on Sunday, which I am still nervous about. We have plans tonight to meet his mom for dinner and I'm not sure if I am up for going or not. We did complete the EN questionairre, but haven't goine over our answers yet. I also have the book to go with it.
What am I doing wrong...? I just feel that I'm trying so many things at once and I'm getting angry. I want my marriage back, I want my bestfriend, the love of my live, the person that I thought was my soulmate.
Last night was a rough night after MC. Something came up in MC that really upset me. He told me that he would have liked to have gone to OW's step-dad's funeral years back, but said he didn't because we got into a fight about it.
starfish, this is what I am referring to. Bringing up the sins of the past is a surefire way to create conflict at a time when you need to be creating romantic love. This is how marriage counseling is harmful to marriages. I am curious about WHY she is counseling you together? What is the point of that if not to "hash out" old grievances and bring the unpleasantness of the past into the present? Because that is exactly what happened here.
Originally Posted by Dr Harley
"As a clinical psychologist who has been in direct therapy with 50,000 individuals and supervised over 600 counselors, I have not found that resolving issues of the past does much to help people deal with issues of the present. In most cases I've witnessed, it makes matters worse because it drags the most unpleasant experiences of the past into the present. I know that my perspective is in conflict with many therapists who are trained to treat the past before they can treat the present, but I have yet to see any convincing evidence that this approach is more effective than letting the past stay in the past. My personal experience is that dredging up the past actually increases the risk of suicide and other dangerous symptoms of mental disorders. Another important reason that I am opposed to bringing up issues of the past is that it wastes time. When you could be forming an effective plan and putting the plan into motion to resolve an issue of the present, you spend months, and even years focused on the past while the problems of the present keep building up, eventually burying the client.
In your situation, I strongly recommend that you not waste your time talking about the past. And don't try analyzing your husband. I know that his affair was a terrible shock to your system, and you want to feel closure. You have been terribly disillusioned by what he did, but the best you can do under the circumstances is look to the future instead of the past. Don't discuss the past with your husband or anyone else for a while, and see if you don't agree with me that it helps improve your relationship and it also causes you to be more relaxed. Focusing on the past causes depression, while focusing on the future with an eye to making it successful causes optimism and gives you energy."
I get what you are saying about the things that I need to be doing, but I'm not sure what I need to be doing at this very moment. I just finished telling his parents (exposure) and getting ready to bring up the poly on Sunday, which I am still nervous about. We have plans tonight to meet his mom for dinner and I'm not sure if I am up for going or not. We did complete the EN questionairre, but haven't goine over our answers yet. I also have the book to go with it.
The things you should be doing is focusing on exposing the affair [it really has not been exposed at all because he doesn't know - there is no benefit from a secret exposure] and gettting the full truth via a polygraph. This has to happen first before you can move forward. Once you have all the truth and the affair is exposed, you can start on next steps.
What about exposure to the OW's mother?
Quote
We have plans tonight to meet his mom for dinner and I'm not sure if I am up for going or not.
Tonight would be a great time for you all to discuss the affair. Your H needs to hear from his parents and get their support. Keeping the affair a secret is harmful to you all.
I understand that it is my fault for dredging up the past... I only do it because I am hurt and want to know why things happened. I realize that it's not healthy to do, but I'm angry for all of this...
So far today, I came home for the rest of the day. WH is having lunch with a male friend from work and then said he would like to see if his boss will let him leave, so we can enjoy the rest of this beautiful day together... floating in the pool or something else. Tonight, his mom is coming by our house and we are supposed to have dinner. Should I bring it up in front of both of them tonight that I exposed the affair to his parents? No plans yet for Saturday, but I'm planning on bringing up the polygraph on Sunday as I have the poly scheduled for Tuesday.
I guess in the meantime, I will work on spending quality time with WH and try my best to have fun. It is just so hard to be close to him when I'm angry and hurting so much. I know that pushing him away isn't the way for me to get the answers that I am needing.
Regarding our MC, she does seem to be working with us on rebuilding and moving forward. She asked us to complete the EN (last page only) and return to her, which we did yesterday. Now, she is asking us to work on a list of boundaries. I think it is me who is holding us back with rebuilding. She told my WH that she does believe him when he says that he cannot remember certain things, but she also believes that he might be withholding other facts, even little facts that are related to the big picture, because he is afraid of hurting me and himself especially to admit them. She told him to think about it and thought it would be good for him to disclose anything that I might be needing to heal. She also said that taking a few steps back, even if it is painful, might be the best thing for us to truly start the process of moving forward into recovery.
I still haven't been able to locate OW's mom's contact info.
I would get it out into the open that his parents know all about the affair. Mention it tonight and tell your H you have told them about the affair. I am so disappointed that they haven't mentioned it to him themselves. Maybe a good, open discussion tonight will help.
Ok, I'll tell him later and then hopefully we can talk about it with his mom tonight. Is there a right or wrong way to discuss this? I don't want to do the wrong thing...
Regarding our MC, she does seem to be working with us on rebuilding and moving forward. She asked us to complete the EN (last page only) and return to her, which we did yesterday. Now, she is asking us to work on a list of boundaries. I think it is me who is holding us back with rebuilding. She told my WH that she does believe him when he says that he cannot remember certain things, but she also believes that he might be withholding other facts, even little facts that are related to the big picture, because he is afraid of hurting me and himself especially to admit them. She told him to think about it and thought it would be good for him to disclose anything that I might be needing to heal. She also said that taking a few steps back, even if it is painful, might be the best thing for us to truly start the process of moving forward into recovery.
I would forget about using this MC for now. Shouldn't be talking about ENs and rebuilding or really even boundaries until you have gotten the full truth, starfish.
Exposure and getting the full truth out is where all of your focus should be. Talking issues out with a foggy wayward is just going to frustrate and exhaust you.
I just found the OW's mom's phone #. What do I say to her?
Tell her who you are, who WH is and about the affair. Tell her that you and WH are working on the M and fighting for your family which includes X number of children and ask for her help in keeping OW away.
Plan A which includes avoiding lovebusters and showing a willingness to meet ENs
No point in arguing about OW right now. He is in the fog.
I hope your MIL & FIL confront him. My sister's WH's whole family including siblings confronted/harassed him when they found out about the affair. She also required a poly. He came out of the fog and they have recovered nicely...
It would be great if his parents confront him, you also tell him tonight that OW's mom has been exposed to and anyone else who is an exposure target (children, close friends, etc)
You don't want to trickle expose. You want to get it all over at once, if possible...
You mentioned that we shouldn't be discussing EN's in MC, but then mentioned that I should be showing a willingness to meet EN's right now, so I'm sorry, but I'm a little confused. If you could please clarify what you are saying, so I can fully understand.
Just left a message for OWM to call me back.
I really hope WH's parents can talk to him first. I will try to contact them and let them know that I think it would be better for them to confront him, but if they decide not to, then I'll confront him later today that I did talk to his parents and that they now know the truth.
Plan A: Demonstrating a willingness to meet ENs = keeping the house nice, doing things that make yourself look/feel attractive (make up, clothing, etc) focusing on being a good mom, going out for a nice dinner etc.
Recovery: "talking" about ENs & LB (MB materials), rebuilding, boundaries, etc should all be kept on the back burner until you get through exposure + poly
I just told WH that I told his parents the truth about what is going on. He was very calm and said, "Ok, I assume you told both of them?" I said, "Yes, both of them. I didn't feel it was right to keep secrets from them.". He said, "Ok."
I just told WH that I told his parents the truth about what is going on. He was very calm and said, "Ok, I assume you told both of them?" I said, "Yes, both of them. I didn't feel it was right to keep secrets from them.". He said, "Ok."
You did good!!
That is a good sign that he took it so well. Just keep pressing forward, you are doing great!
So far, MIL has told her son that secrets will become the death of our marriage and it's so much more difficult not knowing. She said he agreed with her and said that walking away would be the easy way out, but he is willing and wants to do the work for our marriage. That's all she could tell me for now.. stil at dinner.
So far, MIL has told her son that secrets will become the death of our marriage and it's so much more difficult not knowing. She said he agreed with her and said that walking away would be the easy way out, but he is willing and wants to do the work for our marriage. That's all she could tell me for now.. stil at dinner.
That is pretty lame. We need her to express her disappointment in her son for his affair. If she doesn't bring it up in a serious way, then start talking about the affair. Just say "John, as you know I have told your parents about your affair with Skankyho because I felt they should know." Then just starting about how much it has hurt you. Right in front of them all.
It sounds like this family is dysfunctional and not very open.
His family is not dysfunctional by any means.. very good people. His parents have been married for 44 years. His mom is such a care giver and very loving, so it's hard for her to be stern. She tried her best, so just waiting to see what his dad has to say. I'm not sure what else I can do. I can't change people's behaviors, actions or the way they handle things. I know they love me though. My MIL. Held me in the bathroom at the restaurant and let me cry in her arms.
His family is not dysfunctional by any means.. very good people. His parents have been married for 44 years. His mom is such a care giver and very loving, so it's hard for her to be stern. She tried her best, so just waiting to see what his dad has to say. I'm not sure what else I can do. I can't change people's behaviors, actions or the way they handle things. I know they love me though. My MIL. Held me in the bathroom at the restaurant and let me cry in her arms.
But why are they not addressing the affair with their son? It is being swept under the rug and you need their support in speaking to him about the affair. Will they be doing that?
If they won't bring it up themselves, it is really important that you bring it up in their presence so it is out in the open.
The value in exposure is for the WS to be put in a position to EXPLAIN his actions to his family. That is being lost here because his parents are ignoring the elephant in the living room.
I agree. I cannot control anybody but myself. I'll see what his dad says and go from there. I explained to his mom tonight the importance of holding him accountable.
I would see how thing shake out with the polygraph and then make a decision. He might step up to the plate on the polygraph and give you the full truth.
I'm hoping he reacts well to the polygraph. He was definitely showing true remorse this morning and told me how deeply sorry he was, tears in his eyes, telling me he loved me and didn't want to lose me. He said he could definitely help a friend someday if they were ever in his situation and said that he would tell his friend not to do it and also that he should tell his spouse. He said this has been a learning experience and he is still learning.
His mom did tell him last night that what he did was wrong.
He said he will think about it and he is not telling me yes or no yet. He said he doesn't trust them, because they are a machine and not a person. He said he has enough anxiety as it is and feels that there is a possibility that his anxiety could give false results that could complicate things further. He said I knew you were still having your doubts and you don't believe me that I'm already telling you the truth. I told him that this test is not an option for me... it is a must and I fully expect that he will pass. I cannot be in a marriage without trust and wondering everyday. I'm giving him the opportunity to do something for me to heal so we can move forward and start rebuilding our marriage, which is something that I want so deeply. I am giving you the opportunity to earn my forgiveness and then I walked out of the room.
He said he will think about it and he is not telling me yes or no yet.
He is casing you out to see how firmly you will insist
He said he doesn't trust them, because they are a machine and not a person. He said he has enough anxiety as it is and feels that there is a possibility that his anxiety could give false results that could complicate things further.
He is setting the stage for deniability
He said I knew you were still having your doubts and you don't believe me that I'm already telling you the truth.
Attempts to make it YOUR problem
I told him that this test is not an option for me... it is a must and I fully expect that he will pass. I cannot be in a marriage without trust and wondering everyday. I'm giving him the opportunity to do something for me to heal so we can move forward and start rebuilding our marriage, which is something that I want so deeply. I am giving you the opportunity to earn my forgiveness and then I walked out of the room.
You did great!
Any attempts to gaslight you such as the above should be met with you sounding like a broken record.
Broken record statements:
"This is what it will take to keep me in the marraige"
"This is what I insist upon"
"I have every faith you will do the right thing and prove yourself"
"Once we both know the full truth, our marriage will not just survive but THRIVE".
Dont engage in arguments, and keep up a stellar Plan A. Give him a taste of what his refusal would cost him - a fabulous YOU.
He said he will think about it and he is not telling me yes or no yet. He said he doesn't trust them, because they are a machine and not a person. He said he has enough anxiety as it is and feels that there is a possibility that his anxiety could give false results that could complicate things further. He said I knew you were still having your doubts and you don't believe me that I'm already telling you the truth. I told him that this test is not an option for me... it is a must and I fully expect that he will pass. I cannot be in a marriage without trust and wondering everyday. I'm giving him the opportunity to do something for me to heal so we can move forward and start rebuilding our marriage, which is something that I want so deeply. I am giving you the opportunity to earn my forgiveness and then I walked out of the room.
Now what????
You did great!! Just do as indiegirl suggested and say "this is what it will take to keep me in this marriage. If you don't feel you can do this for me, that is your prerogative. Just as it is my prerogative to choose to leave a bad marriage."
See, he doesn't really believe that you mean it yet. He will try to wiggle out of it until you make it clear YOU ARE NOT BUDGING.
I predict that what will happen is that he will first RESIST the polygraph. But when he sees you are serious, he will try to get out of it by throwing you some NEW facts about the affair. He will be hoping that by throwing you some crumbs you will back off and call off the polygraph.
Don't fall for it!! When he starts vomiting some new facts, politely tell him thank you. And STICK to the polygraph. You will probably get even more right up to the test.
I'm giving him the opportunity to do something for me to heal so we can move forward and start rebuilding our marriage, which is something that I want so deeply. I am giving you the opportunity to earn my forgiveness and then I walked out of the room.
You handled this perfectly!!!! You are a QUICK STUDENT!!
OMG, I was so nervous! I didn't let him see it though... I read over the script and just made it my own like I was having a conversation from my heart. When should I bring it up again? Thank you so much for all of your help!!! I think he is scared, but not letting on...
he will try to get out of it by throwing you some NEW facts about the affair.
Yes that's very common. The wayward tends to say: "OK, I was hoping to save you this pain, but she pinned me down and kissed me one time. It was horrible and I was retching the whole time. Its what made me realise I didnt even find her attractive and that I want YOU"
Or some other hopelessly unbelievable whitewash. He then hopes you respond with 'See? That wasnt so hard!' and then you cancel the Poly.
Uh-uh. the only way out of this for him is to man up and do the job on the Poly. Make that very clear that you need him to be brave, and SAVE you from doubt and fear. Tap into his Knight in Shining Armour complex, if you want to. All men have one.
The ball is in his court now. Wait for him to come to you. He is over there sweating right now trying to figure out a way out of this. Just wait for incoming! Be strong and just expect him to try and get out of it. Hold your ground. After you hold your ground, I predict he will start singing like a canary.
Ok, I'll try to be patient. I haven't given him the questions yet either. Should I wait to give him the ?'s until he comes back to me with his answer?
Use your judgement here. I think maybe you wait until he comes back and regardless of what he says, hand him the list. Tell him these are the questions you need answered. But use your judgment. You will want to give him that list this weekend no matter what. Even if he comes and refuses, you still want to put it in his hands and let him know you are not budging.
Ok, now he just told me that he doesn't want to waste our money when he already told me the truth, so I told him that I didn't want to waste my life and need confidence that what he is telling me is true. I told him that if that's his decision, then I guess I had his answer about our future.
Ok, now he just told me that he doesn't want to waste our money when he already told me the truth, so I told him that I didn't want to waste my life and need confidence that what he is telling me is true. I told him that if that's his decision, then I guess I had his answer about our future.
You did good! Just hang tight! He is testing you to see if you mean it. This is his first run....
Ok, now he just told me that he doesn't want to waste our money when he already told me the truth, so I told him that I didn't want to waste my life and need confidence that what he is telling me is true. I told him that if that's his decision, then I guess I had his answer about our future.
Thank you soooooo very much!!!! I really hope this works! Thank you for the quick responses! I started to panic, so I'm so thankful you all are here to help guide me!
Thank you soooooo very much!!!! I really hope this works! Thank you for the quick responses! I started to panic, so I'm so thankful you all are here to help guide me!
WH has been laying the compliments on THICK tonight! I did look and feel beautiful today, but he is telling me all kinds of things tonight that I miss him telling me. I'm not going to cave though!
I haven't given him the ?'s yet. We are talking about getting some wine, popcorn and renting a movie. Tomorrow we have a baseball game to attend at 1:00pm, so I was thinking about giving him the questions tomorrow morning....?
WH has been laying the compliments on THICK tonight! I did look and feel beautiful today, but he is telling me all kinds of things tonight that I miss him telling me. I'm not going to cave though!
I haven't given him the ?'s yet. We are talking about getting some wine, popcorn and renting a movie. Tomorrow we have a baseball game to attend at 1:00pm, so I was thinking about giving him the questions tomorrow morning....?
Sounds good to me! He is probably hoping this will all blow over if he lays on the crap. And I have no doubt that he is more interested now because your price tag just went WAY UP!!
So maybe hand him the list tomorrow and say in order for me to stay in this marriage these are the questions I need answered truthfully and completely. I have made an appointment with a polygraph tester for Tuesday at XX:00.
That will reinforce to him that you are dead serious.
WH has been laying the compliments on THICK tonight! I did look and feel beautiful today, but he is telling me all kinds of things tonight that I miss him telling me.
Star, hate to burst your bubble here, but this is nothing more than an attempt to disarm and deflect in the hope that you will forgo the polygraph. Don't fall for it. Stand by your guns on this. He's hiding a lot, and I hope you realize it. He's doing nothing but schmoozing you in the hopes of you dropping the poly as a condition of your willingness to try and repair your marriage. He's fighting for the easy way out.
I know it feels good, but don't give him that easy way out.
Ok, now he just told me that he doesn't want to waste our money when he already told me the truth, so I told him that I didn't want to waste my life and need confidence that what he is telling me is true. I told him that if that's his decision, then I guess I had his answer about our future.
Wow. Just wow. Rarely do we see people handle this as well as you are doing. That was perfect.
Ok, now he just told me that he doesn't want to waste our money when he already told me the truth, so I told him that I didn't want to waste my life and need confidence that what he is telling me is true. I told him that if that's his decision, then I guess I had his answer about our future.
Wow. Just wow. Rarely do we see people handle this as well as you are doing. That was perfect.
Oh, I know he is schmoozing me... . He even bought me more flowers tonight... wanted to go to the store with me, held my hand, opened every door. Told me I have beautiful blue eyes, that he loves my new hairstyle, loves me so much, just wants to hold me and be close to me and the funniest one was that my body looks like a sculpture or the kind of body that artists paint... a perfect, beautiful body of a woman... very feminine. I swear if I would've had a beverage in my mouth, I would have spit it out and it took everything I had not to laugh. I realize what he is doing and I'm going to stand strong and give him the questions in the morning!
that my body looks like a sculpture or the kind of body that artists paint... a perfect, beautiful body of a woman... very feminine.
Seriously though, just be aware he may be buttering you up before a major tantrum. Pumping up the lovebank of a BW usually makes her more receptive to gaslighting because she *wants* to believe. Prepare for an outburst and refusal where he pulls the heart strings and says all kinds of scary stuff. Practice your pokerface and stock replies. Be prepared. Be ready to do whatever it takes.
I just handed him the list and told him, "Here is the list of my questions that we spoke about yesterday. In order for me to stay in this marriage, I need you to answer these completely and honestly. I have scheduled an appointment with a polygraph tester for 6:00pm on Tuesday. I have faith and know in my heart that you will do the right thing for our marriage, ok?". He said, "ok" and then gave me a hug. I still didn't get a yes or no answer, but I'll take "ok" for now.
Just got back from the baseball game... Getting ready to get in the pool. He hasn't mentioned the questions and actually put them underneath a magazine (probably because he thought my sister might see the ?'s sitting there, as she came over this morning).
Keep up the good work! I wonder what his next strategy will be? I have absolute confidence in your ability to handle his next run. You are smart, a quick study and you think on your feet.
Keep up the good work! I wonder what his next strategy will be? I have absolute confidence in your ability to handle his next run. You are smart, a quick study and you think on your feet.
I want to thank you again for your help and guidance here! You and everyone here are amazing and so helpful... thank you for caring so much and giving so much of your time to help others!
FIL had a talk with WH and asked him what was going on. WH told his dad that he was talking to OW behind my back and meeting her for lunches, but didn't tell him about taking her on our boat. His dad told him that friendships of the opposite sex are not appropriate in a marriage and that he loved me very much and hoped we could work things out. This is coming from WH, so I'm not sure what all was said
Well, he just told me that he cannot answer my questions, because he doesn't deserve me!!! He said it doesn't have anything to do with OW, instead there is OW #2! He met her in Colorado in January and said that they kissed, had their pants down, he went down on her and somebody walked in on them, otherwise they would've had sex!!!!!
I wanted to slap him so bad! Told him my criteria is the following: 1) Answer all of my questions, in full detail! 2) Polygraph 3) Full panel STD testing 4) No more overnights without his wife for the rest of his life!
Talking to my sister now... You were all so right! I cannot believe this!!!! I'm in tears!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There is going to be more, my friend. I am sorry. He needs to get it all out now. I know there is more. There would have been nothing stopping him from going all the way with the OW on the boat.
Ask for the full name of OW #2. Get all the information about her.
He needs to just do one big doc dump and get it all out now if he wants to save this marriage.
He said it doesn't have anything to do with OW, instead there is OW #2!
I suspect this is intel about the OW but he is trying to protect her by conjuring up an OW#2. Ask for the full name and phone # of this new mystery OW and tell him you will be calling her to confirm this story. I suspect he made the whole thing up as a cover for the OW.
Please try and calm down. I know you are very upset [and have every right to be upset!] but your emotions are your enemy right now. Gather yourself, suck in your stomach and CALM DOWN, my friend.
you are closer tonight to a true recovery than you were this morning. As painful as it is to hear, you needed to hear it. So be calm - hold your mouth! you will have to bite your tongue!
GEt all of the truth out in the open and THEN make a decision about what you want to do.
Get the truth, verify everything he says, go through with the polygraph and THEN make a decision.
Remember when we told you that a WS will often throw out some crumbs when they see you are serious? I think that is what is happening here. He is throwing you crumbs in the hopes that he will get out of the test. And I also think he is covering his bases on the true story of the OW by inventing OW #2. Perhaps not, but he is lying about alot of things.
Another thing I would do is get on the phone with your FIL and find out exactly what was said during that conversation, and if he even talked to him at all. You can bet WH didn't tell your FIL any semblance of real truth, and this would also serve to add some more pressure on your WH.
Not sure if I would divulge what he just told you about OW2. But then again...
I agree, read it alone. Come back here, no matter how you want to go to him and give him a talking to, etc.
Come back here and tell us what he wrote.
We will help you respond correctly AND definitely let him know a polygraph is still warranted...."thank you for taking steps to being honest with me hubby. I know that taking a polygraph is something you want to do for us so all is out in the open and crystal clear."
She is not married. I know her first and last name and the city she lives. He tells me he doesn't have her phone number, because he deleted it. Said he never talked to her on the phone. Texted her through Facebook.
1). Have you ever, at any time, in any place, during the entire course of your marital relationship, touched another woman's body in a manner that your wife would object to if she were to have caught you doing it?
Answer: Yes, OW#2 put my hand in her lap. I felt her breasts and crotch area.
2). Has your mouth ever sexually touched any part of another woman's body during your marriage?
Answer: Mouth and crotch. I kissed and went down on OW#2
3). Has your penis ever touched any part of another woman's body during your marriage?
Answer: OW#2 grabbed my penis. She was trying to put it in her when an employee opened the door.
4). Has another woman's mouth ever sexually touched any part of your body during your marriage?
Answer: My mouth. OW #2 kissed me but did not go down on me.
I told him that these are not details and I need to know everything, so I gave him a stack of 20 blank pages and told him to get busy writing.
She is not married. I know her first and last name and the city she lives. He tells me he doesn't have her phone number, because he deleted it. Said he never talked to her on the phone. Texted her through Facebook.
I came home and he had a blow-up mattress in our office already. I guess he knew that I would ask him to sleep in the other room. I asked him if he wrote me the details and he said no and he didn't know what it would help. I told him that it's THE LEAST THING HE COULD DO FOR ME AND OUR MARRIAGE! I told him that I deserved the truth... I wouldn't back down! I told him that he needed to do this TONIGHT!!!!! NO EXCEPTIONS!!!! I'm in SHOCK right now... The pain will be coming, but I truly hate him right now! Can I please wake up from this nightmare already?
I asked him if he wrote me the details and he said no and he didn't know what it would help
It will help him save his marriage. If he is serious about saving his marriage he had better start telling the truth.
Please do your best to calm down, starfish. What is happening is what usually happens when you hold their feet the fire. There is a big confession with lots of new information. I told you to expect this. I know this is so very hard. So just stay CALM and be firm. And here is a big hug to you, friend.
Thank you so much.... I'm trying to be strong, but this is so HARD!!!! I'm watching him write through the window and he keeps looking to the left and rubbing his head and having a very difficult time with this. I don't know what to do here.... I need the truth. An I finally going to get the truth??? How will I know when I finally have the FULL TRUTH?
He deleted his fb, but never deleted OW #2, he only deleted OW#1. I logged back in on his fb account and changed his password so he can't access it. I sent OW#2 a message pretending to be him. Please don't scold me for this... I'm desperate to get the truth and don't know what else to do right now!!! OW#2 is 6 years younger than me and I'm not going to lie, she is a very pretty girl/woman. She is blonde like me... thank God she lives out of state! What is wrong with him and these women that are out of state? I cannot fathom what he was thinking! We have been trying to conceive and he could've given me an STD! I'm furious!!! I'm venting here... Not to him right now, but I seriously want to strangle him!!!
He got Salesman of the Year at work, but certainly no Husband of the Year! He is a lousy husband and I hate him right now!
I'm going to burn all of his ski clothes tomorrow and take his snowboard to the dump! He makes me so ANGRY!!!!
You all were right and I do believe that he did have sex with her after he gave me his story. He said she was trying to put his p inside of her in a storage closet of all places and an employee walked in on them do they couldn't finish! Are you serious???? What perfect timing, right???? ARRRRRGGGHHH!
I'm going to try to get in touch with his friend's wife tomorrow (the one he went on his trip with) to tell his wife. This story is not adding up!!!
I haven't read your entire thread Starfish, but just wanted to let you know someone is listening!
Starfish, hugs to you!!! What you are hearing is traumatic, and your WH is trickle truthing you, which is awful. As soon as you try to get your head around one blow, another awful blow comes.
This needs to stop.
Book the poly. Tell him the date. And tell him your marriage rests on his doing it, as a step towards earning your trust back as you will not continue with this traumatic trickle truth...
No ifs, buts or maybes. As the poly nears your WH will likely spill the beans or back out. You must stay strong in your resolve. As you do not want a WH, you want a committed FWH working on recovery. And that cannot happen without the truth.
How will I know when I finally have the FULL TRUTH?
When he passes the poly.
You NEED the poly because he has trickle truthed you. You will always doubt him unless he passes the poly. You can not fully recover your marriage if you continue to be trickle truthed.
I logged back in on his fb account and changed his password so he can't access it. I sent OW#2 a message pretending to be him. Please don't scold me for this... I'm desperate to get the truth and don't know what else to do right now!!! OW#2 is 6 years younger than me and I'm not going to lie, she is a very pretty girl/woman. She is blonde like me... thank God she lives out of state!
As for OW#2, I am certainly not going to scold you for trying to get the truth! As his wife, you have a right to the truth!
Personally, I wouldn't contact OW#2. There is no purpose, she has shown she has no morals (hon, they always affair down just on that basis, pretty or not). Can you copy her friend list? This is really important. Copy it so you can expose to her side. We can help with FB exposure. And copy any incriminating messages between WH and OW#2 to use as evidence if needed. Save it somewhere safe and send copies to an account WH cannot access. You may need it later...
And as ML said, you need to stay as calm as you can... I know, easier said than done. Breath, eat, sleep. Be nice to yourself. You are in shock.
Good for keeping his feet to the fire ... youre doing BRILIANTLY.
Dont get angry with him and burn stuff though, he needs to see a firm unflappable DANGEROUSLY quiet wife... like an FBI agent, kwim? Angry outbursts show weakness, so punch a pillow or vent some other way if you have to, but keep your game face on.
Thank you so much for being here for me.... I feel like I'm going to vomit!!! I already told him last night that poly wasn't an option and if chose no, then I would walk away and never look back, but if he chooses yes, then it will help him to earn trust back by telling me the truth, which is the VERY LEAST you owe me... THE TRUTH!!! He asked me the location and time, so i told him the time and roundabout location. I think we should ride together, even though I REALLY don't want to be near him. He LIED in MC last week straight to our faces and counted on his fingers all of the things that he didn't do that i was still unsure of, which we're all lies!!!
I know damn well he had sex with OW#2! He must think I'm an IDIOT that an employee tried to open the door right when they were getting ready to do the deed! As far as OW#1, I don't have a clue what to think anymore.
I seriously think I'm going to throw-up!
Do you think he's going to try to get out of the poly again before tomorrow?
Do you think he's going to try to get out of the poly again before tomorrow?
Hmm. Ive never seen anyone be as firm as you, so it would be bold in the extreme for him to try. However dont underestimate the boldness of a wayward. I have no doubt however that you will just say, 'um, no' and that you will stick to it.
Originally Posted by starfish75
The things of his that I want to get rid of are triggers for me!!!!
Oh fine, then. Godspeed. You'll feel better. Be clear that all triggers are intolerable and must go.
How do I take time off from work? I need time to take care of me right now!
I told my employers eveything and said the shock had made me throw up and that I was shaking most of the time. If I hadn�t they would have thought I'd turned into the worst employee ever for q a few months afterwards. As it was they admired my strength in getting back on my feet.
Please guide me on how to expose through fb. I have her friend list, well I saw it last night and can copy it today. No messages were seen. He said he only sent her one message to get her phone number and then deleted her phone number. He said he is telling me EVERYTHING now... I just chuckled and walked out of the room.
Also, told him that he needed to call our doctor and get in for full STD pane today and that we would ride together for poly tomorrow night. After, I said, "Ok?". He said, "ok".
there's a full guide to FB exposure on the 101 thread in Mel's signature.
You need to copy all her friends into a word doc and make sure you space the messages out to prevent FB blocking you. Pick likely family (same surname, relationship links etc) and married couples, warning them to 'watch their own husbands' as per the 'dear friends of skankyhola' example on the 101 thread.
Originally Posted by starfish75
I just chuckled and walked out of the room.
quote]
Nice. I feel like you should be teaching us.
[quote=starfish75]Also, told him that he needed to call our doctor and get in for full STD pane todayl and that we would ride together for poly tomorrow night.
Very good. Be prepared for this to be very upsetting. Be prepared not to lovebust. Tell him in advance you might get upset but that 'you can get through this if he sticks with these types of trustworthy actions'
I just asked him to show me what he was wearing both nights and he did, so I asked him to hand them to me... He asked why? I said because I'm taking them to the Goodwill and walked out of the room.
starfish, I am so sorry you are having to go through this. Can you take the next 2 days off and get some rest? Can you also call up your doctor and get some anti-depressants? Its real important to calm down.
i did take a few days off and it helped, i told my boss and they said take what ever time you need.
i agree that he may be covering up the OW1. you may get more today. i would calmly ask him if there is anything else he would like to say before the poly. because this is his last chance to come clean. and you would like to begin to recovery after he passes the poly.
It's ironic, isn't it? We need the truth so badly and when it starts to come out, we are just devastated.
That's why they lie and try to cover it up. It is so wrong that they can't even face it themselves. They will do anything to avoid the truth...even lie to you and the marriage counselor. The poly will make him face it. And the truth is what will start the recovery process for the BOTH of you.
Be prepared to hear anything at this point. Cool and calm. You can do this. (((hugs)))
I am so impressed by your strength! You are doing so well -- and I have great optimism for your marriage recovery. You have done a wonderful thing for your husband. Its ugly to live with secrets like that. You are giving him a chance to become a better man. He should be grateful.
Stay the course, starfish. When is the polygraph scheduled?
My guess is he will continue to throw out more and more stuff as the polygraph approaches. His goal is to get you to call it off, one way or the other. You must not do that.
After the polygraph, it will be easier to come up with a plan.
Until then, you have been doing great. Stay the course. Reread the suggestions: take off work, make sure to practice self-care, see a doctor about antidepressants.
You have every right to make that call -- that your husband is too damaged, and everything is built on lies.
However, you're in a highly emotional state, and its not the best time to make a final decision. Wait until you have all of the facts.
So be methodical. What details do you want from OW2? Can you be sure that your husband isn't contacting her on the side to line up the stories?
And I suspect (like the others here) that OW1 is still the big threat. I think your husband is muddying the waters with the OW2 story to throw you off the trail. I think his affair with OW1 was more long-term, in-depth, and there is a lot more there that you do not know.
Stick to your plan.
Add some more questions to your list.
Let your husband know that he needs to start writing letters to BOTH OW that he will never again have contact with them for life - and that his love and loyalty are with you.
i agree with Lexy and the vets gave me the same advice over a year ago. you are in a hyper senstive state right now.
i remember being so out of my mind, all i wanted to do was calm down and i couldnt- unfortunately that lasted many months for me bc it took so long to get all of the information out of H. I finally did and then i was able to make a decision, i thing the vets even told me "to not make a decesion is a decision" so i stuck with that for a bit.
you have alot of information to sort thru.
hopefully you will get all the rest of it tonite- BUT DO NOT CANCEL THE APPOINTMENT. you will be able to put your mind at ease that at lease you can make an informed decision of what you want to do, after the appointment.
I think my husband is sick and has a major problem!
He IS very sick. He is a wayward. Which is beyond frustrating and makes many women want to head for the hills.
But...
By forcing him to become radically honest, we are hoping he will defog and you will start to see a different man...and most likely regain hope for your M.
SO? Stick to the PLAN and hold off on making any decisions...for now because your feelings could change. Trust us.
I talked to the polygraph tester today and he helped me to come up with the following question:
Other than what you have already admitted, have you had any sexual contact (sexual contact will be defined) with anyone other than your wife?
One specific issue, but the issue will be asked in a couple different ways so there is no confusion. 94-95% accuracy with one specific issue. We will be there approx. 2 hrs. and the results will be delivered to me by email before noon the next day.
WH hasn't tried getting out of it again yet. I think he knows he is stuck. I contacted the wife of the friend he traveled with when he cheated and let her know what was going on. Within 2 hours of emailing her, WH's travel companion deleted the two women from fb and blocked my WH. How did he find out? Makes me wonder if someone already has a key logger or if her husband checked her messages on fb. She told me she hadn't even talked to her H yet when all of the deleting took place. She said of course she was going to talk to me first, but said he was very perceptive. He changed his phone number 3 times in the past year... hmmmmm...
tester will go over the meaning of key words many times with subject before the official recorded test is taken. In case of my H, romantic/sexual was defined/asked many times. My H knew this meant internet, in person, on phone, by smoke signal, whatever. And sexual/romantic was any thoughts words, deeds, touches, hugs held too long-
they define all the possible meanings so there is no gray area
Questions
Are you deliberately concealing information about any other relationship you have had with anyone.
Are you intentionally withholding any other information about any other relationships you had with anyone
Are you purposely withholding information about any other relationships you have had with anyone.
I left the room and waited 3 hours. then we discussed the results.
I told him it is not an option. I had faith that he was going to prove himself and start building back my trust. I told him that he would need to find another place to stay and he made his decision.
You are one courageous woman. Do not let the fear sink in and stay firm with your demands, these are absolutely valid and necessary to proceed with possible recovery. Without poly you would risk false recovery.
He somehow changed the password on fb back!!! How did this happen? He couldn't have known the password that I used! I called the cops and had him leave tonight. Now, he is telling me that he needs a good night sleep and doesn't know what he wants! Seriously????
He won't take the poly!!!! He said I need to have faith in him!
He has no business telling you that you should have faith in him. He needs to step up and starting righting his wrongs, starting with coming clean and proving it.
Going to the bank this morning. He has refused the poly. I stood firm and he said that I made my decision... throwing it backing on me! I have no words... 2 hrs. of sleep and heading to the bank with my mom. He texted my mom and said he wants to talk to me later this morning. He won't give me the passwords either! What a mess this has become! His brother was such a jerk last night telling me that we are DONE (meaning me and WH).
ignore his brother! dont back down, if you do it will show him that you are a pushover he can keep behaving in that manner.
tell him that you really hope that he will go to the appointment beacuse that what you need him to do to help you heal from this mess and move forward with a clean slate and build a fulfilling marriage together.
you really are doing great, i know you feel like its a mess but i have hope that this is a small bump in the road today.
And to think this is all over your requirement that you have the full truth. I am so sorry, starfish, but I could tell from the start he was lying and his behavior just indicates there is more. Do you have the paper he filled out for you admitting his affair with the coworker? I would hang onto it.
The next step I would take is do your best to calm down with him. Let him know that you want your marriage to work but you have to have the truth. Be firm in your conditions [polygraph] and then if he still refuses to do that go into Plan B in a couple of weeks.
Plan B is a completely dark separation where all interaction is handled through a intermediary. It is initiated with a Plan B letter, which is a love letter that states your conditions and gives him a path back.
hugs to you, my friend. I know this is hard. But your marriage can never recover unless it is based on the truth. Until he gives you that, there is no recovery.
He has refused the poly. I stood firm and he said that I made my decision... throwing it backing on me!
Yes, yes you did make your decision. You made the decision to not live in a sham marriage with someone who is not willing to live a transparent life and commit to being a faithful, loving partner. Now he has a decision to make -- does he intend to become a person to whom you would decide to be married?
Yes, it is not illegal in any state in this union to change the locks on your own home.
And tell your husband when you speak that in order to have "faith" he needs to be faithful. He has not been faithful.
starfish, when you speak to him, it is important that you not lovebust him. No fighting, no anger, just be firm and polite. Don't fight with him and make the situation worse.
Let him know you are willing to forgive, but only the basis that he honest and is willing to take a polygraph to prove his honesty. that is the only way your marriage can recover. A marriage cannot recover when there are valid and legitimate questions about his honesty.
starfish, I am so sorry you are having to go through this. Can you take the next 2 days off and get some rest? Can you also call up your doctor and get some anti-depressants? Its real important to calm down.
These are really good suggestions. I just thought I'd bring them up again.
Exposure is next Starfish. You have enough evidence (his own admission) that he's been having affairs. Tell his parents the additional information. And get ready to spread the word.
Expose both OW. Facebook.
Use the messages we recommend here.
I am sorry to share this news, but my husband has been having affairs (yes, more than one). I am asking for your prayers and support. Please tell WH to end this behavior and work on our marriage.
or for OW:
I am sorry to share this news, but OW has been having an affair with my husband. Please tell OW to end this behavior and work on her marriage.
Took 1/2 out of checking/savings and opened up my own accounts today. I wanted to vomit when I received the check from the funds. Money means nothing to me... I know I need to protect myself and have security, but this is not what I wanted.
WH now has OW#2's phone number again, because he found the messages that we were sharing. He has changed all the p/w's, so now I can't check cell phone records, credit card, banking info. I'm a wreck!
He texted my mom and told her that he wants to talk to me later, but knows that I need my rest.
I have no words. Everyone here and all of my family and friends know that he is still lying and nobody can understand. He is so very sick! In-laws know everything. MIL said maybe he needs to be alone and doesn't know how we can move forward. She says he isn't the son she raised and doesn't know him, but WH said she seemed supportive when he talked to her last night.
I'm sure OW#2 won't call me now, because I'm sure she knows now and is scared. I haven't exposed to her family and friends yet. I'm too exhausted and dilirious (sp)!
I have no idea what to say to WH now. I'm so weak. I could really use a short, simple script, because I cannot retain much right now.
My IC is amazing and checking with me daily and is filling out FMLA paperwork for me. Hopefully they approve 3 weeks off. I have a lot of love and support, but it's exhausting keeping up with all of the text messages and phone calls. I just want to be here right now...
SF, you are doing great! And you sound much calmer. I am so sorry this is happening to you.
When you speak to your H, be calm and respectful. Tell him that you love him and want your marriage to work out, but that can only happen if you have all of the truth. You are not promising anything, but you are willing to give him an opportunity to earn your forgiveness only if he tells the full truth and submits to a polygraph. If he wants you to have "faith" in his word, he needs to back it up. Until that happens, you can have no "faith" in him whatsoever.
You are willing to forgive an affair, but are not willing to forgive more lies. So now is the time to come clean if he wants to stay married.
Starfish -- most married couples misuse the concept of "trust". There is no place for blind trust in a marriage. Transparency is what is needed in a marriage.
If he is not willing to be transparent and truly share his life WITH you, then he not marriage-material.
Its simply not fair of him to expect you to have children and make major life decisions based on incomplete facts about your life.
Starfish -- most married couples misuse the concept of "trust". There is no place for blind trust in a marriage. Transparency is what is needed in a marriage.
If he is not willing to be transparent and truly share his life WITH you, then he not marriage-material.
Its simply not fair of him to expect you to have children and make major life decisions based on incomplete facts about your life.
I couldn't agree with you more... He is still lying and I just don't know what else to do. He hasn't called me yet today.
Mel's advice to stay calm and not lovebust is crucial. If you blow up when he gives you information, it is just going to make him clam up even more.
When you speak to him again, if you need a minute to calm yourself, tell him you will call back, etc. Again, if you need AD's don't be afraid to use them to get through.
I went back and saw in your first post that he has been in touch with OW1 for six years. Did you ever speak to her yourself? Did he ever confess to having a PA with her?
Star. When I was in this state of limbo and my WH was not home...I used to keep my mind busy by doing some good old fashioned snooping. Going through pockets, drawers, statements, etc...
It sounds like your WH is trying very hard to hide some evidence from you. I bet he did not have time to clean everything out.
He is reaching out to my mom and sister right now. My sister is meeting him at a park and I pray she can talk some sense into him and get him to do the right thing.
That is great! And I am presuming they fully support you in your quest for a polygraph?
Yes, they support the poly 200%, but I'm not sure his family is supporting the poly, so that is making it difficult. His brother is toxic and not a good influence I feel.
That is great! And I am presuming they fully support you in your quest for a polygraph?
Yes, they support the poly 200%, but I'm not sure his family is supporting the poly, so that is making it difficult. His brother is toxic and not a good influence I feel.
I agree his brother is not a good influence. If his family supports your marriage they will support the polygraph because you have made it clear that is what it will take to assure you he is telling you the truth. I have a bad feeling there is much more which would explain his resistance. He may be protecting the OW #1.
How much does he usually travel? How much travel over the past few years?
Trust is a concept that is widely misused within marriages. You should not blindly trust your spouse. Ever.
TRANPARENCY is what marriage requires. When you are transparent, there is no opportunity to start down that slippery slope of bad behavior with the opposite sex.
The appt is scheduled for 6pm, which is 4 hours away. I haven't canceled it, hoping for the best, but realizing that he still may not go through with it. I pray that my sister can convince him. If anybody can do it, my sister can. Oh, just found out he is in his way over to pick up clothes, etc, with my sister. He told my sister that he is staying at a friends house for a couple of days to give us a break. This doesn't sound like he is going through with the poly.
That lifestyle is an invitation to an affair. Did you realize that? Being apart this way creates an emotional detachment and gives him the opportunity to create the necessary secret second life. Affairs are epidemic in marriages where there are traveling jobs.
He's risking his marriage to protect a secret. He is very likely protecting OW1. You have to be prepared for the fact there is a full blown or continuing A and that he considers her an option. When it was a secret, he didn't have to decide to throw OW under a bus to have his marriage. He could have her too, at least as a future option. Now he has to decide whether to keep her secret or protect your safety and his marriage.
Sounds dumb, I know. Waywards are. You've made the right choice painfully clear but when your head is fogged out on wayward levels of dopamine, the only thing they consider a 'win' is being able to have it all.
You're fighting a good battle to clear out the stupid fog. Its admirable.
I left with the laptop while he was taking the dogs for a walk. I'm hiding out until my sister tells me that he left the house. He packed a [censored] of clothes and sunscreen!!! I sent my sister a text and told her that I love him!!! She must have told him, because he sent me a text that read:
I love you too. We will get through this some how. I'm going to find a counselor to talk to.
What type of key logger should I get and what else should I look for?
It is recommended to also get spyware for phone with GPS tracking. Is it his own phone or company owned?
You want to stay legal.
Look in the "operation investigate" forum for ideas. I was so naive when I was going through this that I didn't even know these things existed. But I still found the incriminating evidence the old fashioned way. The high tech stuff is better because you get real time, passwords, usernames, etc.
I left with the laptop while he was taking the dogs for a walk. I'm hiding out until my sister tells me that he left the house. He packed a [censored] of clothes and sunscreen!!! I sent my sister a text and told her that I love him!!! She must have told him, because he sent me a text that read:
I love you too. We will get through this some how. I'm going to find a counselor to talk to.
The "counselor" offer is typically a way to avoid facing the consequences of the affair. Go read Chris1972's thread. When Susie held his feet to the fire on the polygraph, he suddenly decided he had mental issues and needed to go to a "counselor." This was to avoid doing the hard work of becoming honest. He was also a serial cheater. He chose to leave his marriage rather than take a polygraph because it turned out he had multiple affairs.
A good keylogger is eblaster at spectorsoft.com. It runs about $100 and is undetectable. It will email you reports. You can download and install it very quickly.
I would not go along with the marriage building, even coaching with the Harleys, until he takes that poly, starfish. Hold his feet to the fire and get that out of the way FIRST.
I am really afraid that he will be successful in wiggling his way out of the poly which it looks like he is trying to do right now...
Go read Chris1972's thread. When Susie held his feet to the fire on the polygraph, he suddenly decided he had mental issues and needed to go to a "counselor."
He also (1) called our MB coach, (2) wrote into the radio show and scheduled himself to go on with Dr Harley and (3) posted here on the forum.
He was desperate to distract me from making him take that poly ~ because he was unwilling to become radically honest and tell me everything he had done in his secret second life.
But not being honest is what kept him wayward and led to his having another affair so this was not negotiable.
Be very very careful of distractions, starfish. Becoming honest is the first step. There is no point in going further if he isn't going to do that.
When you speak to your H, be calm and respectful. Tell him that you love him and want your marriage to work out, but that can only happen if you have all of the truth. You are not promising anything, but you are willing to give him an opportunity to earn your forgiveness only if he tells the full truth and submits to a polygraph. If he wants you to have "faith" in his word, he needs to back it up. Until that happens, you can have no "faith" in him whatsoever.
You are willing to forgive an affair, but are not willing to forgive more lies. So now is the time to come clean if he wants to stay married.
I would send him this in a letter or email, starfish, in response to his counseling suggestion.
When you talk to him, have a copy of this nearby and be a broken record. Sometimes less is more with a wayward.
without the advice/courage i got here and the balls to say what i have i got to loose, i would be not where i am now.
my H was a super serial cheater. hid the truth for 3 months- didnt want to hurt me anymore... blah H spoke to Jennifer harley (before the full truth came out)...yep lied to her too. went on radio show right before poly. i got the full list that week.
after H wrote out pages of lies, and it was bad, he took the poly and passed. but it took three months of the bus hitting me before i got it all, at even at that i didnt believe it, who would????
so my advice is like ML and SusieQ- hold his feet to the fire. I would not want to go thru 3 months of that again ever. it was just lies based on lies.
I have webwatcher and mobistealth
i can sense that you are strong enough to follow this thru like a rockstar that you already are.
but you have to also take care of yourself, i didnt do a great job with that, i was on the adrenaline high, which wreaks havoc on your system.
did he leave the house? whats with the sunscreen?
ps-what susieq just posted to you was the last thing i gave my H before i asked him to leave, H had his list the next day. - thank you ML & SQ.
Just sent him the following email (Thank you for the script):
I love you and want our marriage to work out, but that can only happen if I have all of the truth. I am not promising anything, but I am willing to give you an opportunity to earn my forgiveness only if you tell me the full truth and submit to a polygraph. If you want me to have "faith" in your word, you need to back it up. Until that happens, I can have no "faith" in you whatsoever.�
I am willing to forgive your affair(s), but not willing to forgive more lies. So now is the time to come clean if you want to stay married.
Starfish, WOW. That's a bang on email, and I think that was great timing. You are doing very well with all of this. You sound quite strong. I am certain you don't feel that way, but you have been so courageous with your steps so far. Keep it up. AWESOME.
running scared. my H did do the same thing until i told him i wouldnt steal all of our money. H was mortified, calmly call him and say i will not do anything to harm our recovery i am trying to help us.
you are more than trying you are doing a good job. calmly call and ask "gosh golly i went to cvs and the card didnt work, why wouldnt the credit card work sweety, i thought we paid the bill?"
Starfish, WOW. That's a bang on email, and I think that was great timing. You are doing very well with all of this. You sound quite strong. I am certain you don't feel that way, but you have been so courageous with your steps so far. Keep it up. AWESOME.
Ditto on all this. Starfish, you are doing an incredible job and are quickly becoming a poster child for the MB plan of action. Your strength and commitment has been nothing short of spectacular. I only wish more people were as willing as you to implement the fantastic advice you (and they) have received themselves. There would be a lot more happy endings on this board if so.
You certainly have my admiration and respect. Keep up the good fight!
Thank you so very much!!! I couldn't do this without all of you and I'm staying strong because of all of you and your support! You all have helped me immensely and I will keep listening and taking advice as I see can see that so many of you predicted things that ended up happening.
What do you all think... Do you think he will succumb to the poly? What are your instincts telling you? I haven't heard back from him since I sent the text about trust, faith, lies and coming clean to help me heal.
i am hoping he is writing his list of sins. i think that once he gives you the truth he will be free and really to do whatever it takes. including a poly- the next few days after i said what you basically did was quite interesting. he knew that i wouldnt take anymore and i hit my bottom. it was all or nothing to make it work. the thing that sealed the deal was after i got the list i kissed his head and thanked him for being honest- that killed him. i nearly threw up- but i went to bed and realized tomorrow was another day and more clairty would come.
but that was my experience. and we are doing well.
but the vets know more about what they have seen over the past.
you are really doing great, you need to get some sleep try tonite.
What do you all think... Do you think he will succumb to the poly? What are your instincts telling you? I haven't heard back from him since I sent the text about trust, faith, lies and coming clean to help me heal.
I don't know, sf. I think he has ALOT to hide because he has been living a secret second life for a very long time. I don't doubt that he is a serial cheater. And I don't doubt for 2 seconds that he had sex with OW 1 on the boat. There would have been nothing to stop him, after all. He has already crossed that line.
I am hopeful he will step up to the plate and be honest about it. It could go either way. And even if he doesn't decide this week to do it, he might decide to do it next week when he sees you are dead serious about this. I think he still has a small hope that he can get out of this and snow you back into silence. The problem now is that you know too much. No one would go to this much trouble to avoid a polygraph unless he was lying.
And unless he comes clean and makes a dramatic change in his life - so that he can't live a secret second life anymore - you will live a life of hell. So you have nothing to lose. You really don't. Other than a life of holy hell where this happens again and again and again. Your only hope of a good future with him is to keep your standards very high. That is the only way out of this. He either meets your standards or you are truly better off without him. And I sure hope he does meet your standards. This is what chickadee did and she is well on her way to recovery now. But she would have had nothing if she didn't do this.
I would give this a couple of weeks, and do a really great Plan A and then go very dark in a Plan B. Plan B is a separation where all communication is handled via an intermediary. It would be initiated by a Plan B letter where you tell him you love him, but in order reconcile he would have to be honest [take the polygraph] and find a non traveling job.
What do you all think... Do you think he will succumb to the poly? What are your instincts telling you? I haven't heard back from him since I sent the text about trust, faith, lies and coming clean to help me heal.
Agree with karmasrose completely. He's just testing your resolve, and you are proving with every counter move that you will not budge. Fantastic!
Right now he's cornered, and he knows it. You have taken control of the situation and he doesn't like it, but can find no way out of it, which is why he hasn't responded to your email. He's struggling and terrified of the truths he's hiding. Otherwise, he would have no problem with the poly. Hate to say it, but there's more coming, so brace yourself.
I really do hope I'm wrong for your sake. That being said, I also believe in hoping for the best but planning for the worst.
He is obviously lying. He wants to try to keep his secrets secret. In the past, you may have started out strong, but eventually caved into his demands, and he may think that he just needs to wait you out, and soon you'll come to your senses.
Does he know about MB? If he doesn't, I wouldn't tell him about it, just yet.
He doesn't realize that you have devised a PLAN, and that you have the wisdom of DrH, as well as countless of others whom have come before you on this very forum, helping guide you towards your goal.
You're a SUPERSTAR. You just need to keep doing what you are doing, and don't lower that bar. The worst thing you could do for you, your marriage, and especially your WH would be to allow him to coast through this.
Even if he refuses the polygraph now, it doesn't mean that your sitch is hopeless. You need to focus on how much better you will feel once this chapter is behind you, whichever way it turns out.
If you have a chance, take a look around at other people's threads. You'll see a lot of similarities and get advice you never considered.
as ml said be dead serious you have nothing to loose, really your husband is a liar and a cheat, you can provide him with an opportunity to get out of the hell hole he created and become a better person. but dont let him drag you down the hole with him. you have nothing to loose. i looked it as i could walk away from this but i would regret that i didnt try... but if he didnt i knew-- i did my best and i would have no regrets.
i am dead serious and i will not accept anything less, it took me some time to get that but when i did i was empowered.
i dont post to many, but i see so many similar things i have to relay my drama as it may help. you are so much further along than i was.
my most useful advice for YOU each day, SLEEP!, water, get up, get showered, put on a nice outfit and know you can do this either way. i promise.. Listen to all the vets here they know what steps you must take.
Here is the text i received this morning (still no response about polygraph)...
I'm very optimistic that we can get through this, but we both need a few days to get our heads back on straight, get rest, and hopefully we can both make good decisions for our future after that. I want to talk to a counselor and I'm going to pursue that. I still love you (my name) very much.
No, I didn't respond, but he called me this morning to let me know that he would give me a new credit card. He also told me that he was on his way to the dr. for full panel STD testing. This was one of the criteria that I had for him. I told him that he knew what he needed to do and I couldn't live on "faith" right now. I told him he needs to put his self pride aside and man up and do what's right. I can't and won't be in a marriage based on lies and deceit! You know what you need to do in order to move forward. It I don't have trust, then we don't have ANYTHING!
i know this is going to make you puke but you have to thank him for going for the test. no snide comments after.
to the vets... if sf H is looking for a IC then why would SF just suggest that she has one and give him harleys number?- i know it was addresses briefly
if sf H is looking for a IC then why would SF just suggest that she has one and give him harleys number?- i know it was addresses briefly
The vets think counselling is useless unless he agrees a poly. I suppose contacting SH could stop him getting a toxic IC who supports his delusions. However starfish could simply ban him from getting an IC without her approval. She could simply say 'I will be very upset if you choose an IC I dont approve of, and I am not interested in your being counselled until after the Poly. Until then, I am not on board'. Or something like that....
I'm very optimistic that we can get through this, but we both need a few days to get our heads back on straight, get rest, and hopefully we can both make good decisions for our future after that. I want to talk to a counselor and I'm going to pursue that. I still love you (my name) very much.
BLAH BLAH BLAH, I want you to carry on meeting my needs, BLAH BLAH BLAH please forget about the poly.
Starfish. There is something on those credit card statements that he is trying to hide from you. Why shut you off and then get you a knew card? Did he take those statements?
If you can find proof on your own what he is hiding, then he will have to face it.
Your MIL/FIL seem very supportive of you. I think he is gaslighting them also. Are you keeping in touch with them?
Her husband is looking for an "IC" who will validate him. It is a classic distraction ploy. Starfish, tell him that if he wants to speak to a counselor it needs to be a qualified marriage counselor because otherwise he is wasting his time seeking out a "counselor" at a time when your marriage is in crisis. [suggest Steve Harley]
Tell him "your pursuit of a counselor at a time when our marriage is in crisis tells me you are not serious about doing what it takes to recover our marriage. If you are serious, then you will take the polygraph and do what is necessary to save your marriage. I don't see you doing that."
He didn't really have much to say... I received the following text from his brothers g/f this morning:
I hope u have gotten some rest. I wish I had some awesome advise for you that would just make a world of difference-but I don't. Everything u need u already have-all the answers-u have them inside you. U r an amazing woman!
I could totally be taking this wrong, but what does she mean by I have all of the answers inside of me? I don't have all of the answers!
I checked the two charges and they are for the following: Healthcheck Systems ($325) Appalachian Traveller ($244.60)
I think these may be fraud charges as I tried to Google them both. He said he thought I made the charges and I haven't. The first one was from yesterday and I wasn't even thinking about buying anything!
I totally agree that he needs to take the polygraph, but I didn't use that word today because I feel like he already knows and considers it a negative when I say the word. He knows what he needs to do and is pushing it aside.
I have thought about the counseling too and agree that I need to approve whoever he chooses. I'm so afraid that he is going to find someone that will side with him about not taking the polygraph! Would the Harley's be able to help convince him that this is what he needs to do? Should I call them first?
The polygraph is the most important thing to me right now, so I picture that in the center and all of the other criteria around that in a circle. He is dancing around the circle and doing some of the other things (STD Testing), but won't go into the circle. This is what I need!
I would leave counselors out of it until he takes the polygraph. I don't think you will get the truth any other way. I would tell him what I said above and just be a broken record.
Ok, what do you mean by the last sentence? "I don't see you doing that"...? Should I add this part to him?
Tell him "your pursuit of a counselor at a time when our marriage is in crisis tells me you are not serious about doing what it takes to recover our marriage. If you are serious, then you will take the polygraph and do what is necessary to save your marriage. I don't see you doing that."
I tried getting back online to check our credit card and now I'm not able to view our statement!
Ok, what do you mean by the last sentence? "I don't see you doing that"...? Should I add this part to him?
\\
What that means is that he is not taking the polygraph and if he wants to save his marriage he needs to do that. I see how you interpreted it so change that sentence so it can't read the way you took it.
"your pursuit of a counselor at a time when our marriage is in crisis tells me you are not serious about doing what it takes to recover our marriage. If you are serious, then you will take the polygraph and do what is necessary to save your marriage. I don't see you doing that. I need you to take the polygraph so we can move forward and start working on our marriage."
I haven't been keeping in touch with my in-laws. I'll try to call my FIL today. I'm just not sure what to say... Should I talk to him about the polygraph?
I haven't been keeping in touch with my in-laws. I'll try to call my FIL today. I'm just not sure what to say... Should I talk to him about the polygraph?
Sure! Just let him know that you knew your H was lying and that has proved true. In order to move forward and restore trust you need him to take the polygpraph. Just explain your reasoning to your FIL and ask for his support.
If he says something like "you just need to trust him," tell him that is what you want too. And that is the purpose of the polygraph. That will be a good start on restoring trust. Your H's resistence to the polygraph tells you he is still lying though. An honest person would be happy to take the test and prove his honesty.
Just lay it out and sell it your FIL. And make sure he understands you want to save your marriage. But you know it can only be done on the basis of complete and radical honesty.
I contacted the credit card company and they are crediting our account for the purchases as they appear to be fraudulent.
Starfish. Think about this...call credit card co and tell them you are having trouble getting in. There appears to be fraudulent activity on your account and you would like to check the statements.
These are the type of things I had to do in my own situation to get the truth. I got the truth. FWH had to face it.
I also called the merchant and said that I don't remember making these charges and needed more info on the purchase. I told them that I would rather clear it up with them directly than have to dispute it with the credit card co.
Chargebacks from credit card co are a real pain for merchants and they were happy to help me.
These merchants do not know that you already disputed it.
I called the first merchant and it was for a stroller and the ship to address was for our address. They also gave our home phone number but a strange email address (aol). The order was placed Monday evening at 10:44pm. I checked our IP address on our laptop and it doesn't match up.
ok now i may be taking this too far-- can you create a fake email account with something like the store name. and send the "strange" aol account an email confirming shipping address.
and see who answers....
was your H home on monday at 10:44?
were the charges right after each other?
i have fraudlent charges before and they come in batches.
then back to calling your FIL, and tell him what ML told you.
Ok, just got off of the phone with my FIL. He said he understands my point of view, but also understands his son's point of view and wondering why I'm needing this when he has confided in me and told me everything, which was incredibly difficult for his son to do. I told him that he lost my faith and trust by his selfish actions and the new truth came to surface after 7 wks. Is there going to be more in 3 wks/3 months/3 years from now? I can't handle anymore of this. If what he is telling me is true then this is what I need to heal, build a clean slate so I know the truth once and for all! I cannot be in a marriage where there is no trust and I'm giving his son an opportunity to build back some trust. He asked me what kind of ?'s the polygraph tester would be asking, etc. I gave him a general idea and told him that I was not trying to torture his son with 50 questions, instead it would be a few questions based in one specific issue. I told him that I have never done anything to intentionally or unintentionally hurt his son ever and he agreed. I also said that sometimes people need to put aside their self pride after they have done something very selfish and do what needs to be done to help the person that they hurt to heal. He agreed. He told me that his son is thinking about it... he doesn't know if he is for sure going to do it or not, but knows that he is seriously thinking about it. I told him that I love his son very much and giving Bryan the opportunity to start earning back some trust, which is what any relationship is based on. I want to rebuild our marriage and realize that we have a long road ahead of us, but I think with time and hard work we can have a beautiful, loving, long-term marriage. Pretty much left it at that...
My STBX tried stalling on the poly once I told him it was being scheduled, and I had to give him a deadline. You may have to do the same. Maybe you could make it the end of the weekend or some day next week...and in the meantime do some Plan A'ing, ie, invite him over for dinner, avoid M talk, look nice, etc. If M talk comes up, remember your script regarding the poly and just be a broken record.
also Don't forget that part of Plan A is preparing your Plan B.
I called the first merchant and it was for a stroller and the ship to address was for our address. They also gave our home phone number but a strange email address (aol). The order was placed Monday evening at 10:44pm. I checked our IP address on our laptop and it doesn't match up.
I'm still trying to figure out why someone would steal your credit card number and then have the purchase sent to your home address.
OMG!!!! WH just called me and told me that he would do the polygraph!!!! He said he would do it today or as early as possible!!! He said he loves me, can't be without me, hates not seeing my face everyday and can't stand not being at the hose. He said he is SO, SO SORRY for what he has and is putting me through. He asked me that he one request by going through with the poly and that would be for me to return all of the truths that he has revealed so far, because he doesn't want those to be our lives ever again or a reminder. I agreed that this was possible after the results if he passes. My mom said that we should burn them together. The earliest appt the polygraph tester has is tomorrow.
Thank God!!! He is finally caving in!!! Thank you so very much for all of the step by step advice from all of you!! Because of your support and guidance I'm finally getting closer to the truth and healing!!!
i would tell him that you really want him to pass this test and if there is anything else he need to tell you he should before the test as you would like to be on a clean slate once he passes and you would like to move forward. (i still think you need some claification on OW1- and what ever else may come out)- sorry. My H wrote a list out and our friend told him "you better put everything i mean every on that list for her".
i am sorry I dont understand this
"He asked me that he one request by going through with the poly and that would be for me to return all of the truths that he has revealed so far, because he doesn't want those to be our lives ever again or a reminder"
I will keep copies in a sealed envelope at my mom's house until a later date once I feel some security. Everything is in his writing, so I assume it will be okay to keep the copies?
lol... just realized that WH sent this email to me about 1/2 hour before he called me to tell me he would take the poly.
BW,
I love you and I'm willing to reconsider it, I still think we need a few days to get rest and get our minds clear.��I feel in a fog, and I'm sure your fog is�thicker than mine. � Love me
When do you decide the questions to ask at the poly?
I talked to the polygraph tester on Monday and we came up with the following:
Other than what you have admitted, have you had any sexual contact with anyone other than your wife?
The guy told me that we would sit down with him beforehand and discuss the question(s), so that we are all in agreeance and then he will take WH to perform the test.
If anybody would like to share the details of your polygraph experience, please do!
OMG!!!! WH just called me and told me that he would do the polygraph!!!! He said he would do it today or as early as possible!!! He said he loves me, can't be without me, hates not seeing my face everyday and can't stand not being at the hose. He said he is SO, SO SORRY for what he has and is putting me through. He asked me that he one request by going through with the poly and that would be for me to return all of the truths that he has revealed so far, because he doesn't want those to be our lives ever again or a reminder. I agreed that this was possible after the results if he passes. My mom said that we should burn them together. The earliest appt the polygraph tester has is tomorrow.
Make a copy of it for safekeeping and do not ever tell him about it. You don't want them to be a reminder either, but if you find out he is still in the affair in 6 weeks, you will need that intel. Do not ever give up your evidence. It is your protection.
Congratulations!!
And you very much need to address and resolve this traveling issue because it is a MAJOR problem in your marriage. I would also find a qualified marriage counselor, such as the Harleys or go through the online program so you get assigned a coach and have access to Dr Harley.
When do you decide the questions to ask at the poly?
I talked to the polygraph tester on Monday and we came up with the following:
Other than what you have admitted, have you had any sexual contact with anyone other than your wife?
The guy told me that we would sit down with him beforehand and discuss the question(s), so that we are all in agreeance and then he will take WH to perform the test.
If anybody would like to share the details of your polygraph experience, please do!
chicka wrote about the Qs that were asked of her H, basically designed to make sure nothing else was being concealed.
I'm so pissed right now... I just tracked WH on Gps and he is having dinner at a Sports Bar with a guy friend! Seriously? You can even eat right now? Sorry, I'm just not happy about this... I know we all need to eat, but the place that was chosen just ticks me off!
I'm so pissed right now... I just tracked WH on Gps and he is having dinner at a Sports Bar with a guy friend! Seriously? You can even eat right now? Sorry, I'm just not happy about this... I know we all need to eat, but the place that was chosen just ticks me off!
The only reason I'm asking is that it seemed from your post that you were more pissed about his ability to eat (I understand this), rather than his choice of eatery.
More than fair enough, but I wouldn't bring this up to him right now. The bar scene is going to be a trigger for a long time for you, but don't let him know right now that you know where he was. There will be a time for that later, and you can lay out for him the reasons when the time is right. Don't divulge your intel sources.
you have an appointment tomorrow at 4pm. i know you are outta you skin right now, his buddy may have taken him out to cheer him up, bad choice but he doesnt know that those places will no longer be ok nor does your H. you are one step ahead remember.
did you ask him to give you everything, you dont want him to fail.... when the polygrapher discusses the meanings you may want to take a few minutes before the test for him to come clean. they are very detailed, and he may need a few minutes to understand. call your poly guy and tell him you think you have it all but not sure,and you want him to pass. before the actual test could he give him a min or two to come clean. my guy was so sympathetic.
WH called last night and told me that he wasn't going to rush me to come back home after the poly. He said that he would give me time to decide when I felt that I want him back in the house.
He also said that he has nothing left to hide, so the polygraph isn't a big deal to him anymore and if this is what I need, then he wants to do it for me.
i really would tell him on the ride there you need him to pass this test and if there is anything to tell you.
i agree with scotty. he may think he can fool it.
and it you are ready after that there is no need for him to be hanging out at a friends after he passes.
I agree with this. It makes no sense that he didn't have sex on the boat with the OW. There would be nothing to stop him. I would take another run at this on the way over there. Tell him, "I want more than anything for you to pass this test so if there is anything more you are not telling me, now is the time to get it out. For example, if you had sex with the OW now is the time to tell me all if you want to save our marriage."
I hope today can be a turning point to a healing process in our marriage.� This week has been a tough one to say the least.� Having police come to our house is something I never would have thought would happen.� I have made mistakes that have hurt you, and hurt our relationship, but I know they are repairable if we both are willing to let them heal.� I believe in us and I still love you.� I miss you and I miss our family.� I'm really hoping today is the start to that healing process.� I'll see you later today.
Do not react to such messages at all. These messages are patronising to say the least, and empty. Notice that there are no apologies there, only blameshifting and him whining that you have made his life hard with the police and your unforgivefulness. Geez...
Focus on poly and do not let him distract you at.all.
He is insisting that I give him everything that he wrote out to me about the affairs and all of his hand written answers to my questions. He wants them BEFORE we walk into the polygraph office. I have already made copies, so should I just give him the originals? He said he wants to destroy them. We won't receive poly results until tomorrow.
He is insisting that I give him everything that he wrote out to me about the affairs and all of his hand written answers to my questions. He wants them BEFORE we walk into the polygraph office. I have already made copies, so should I just give him the originals? He said he wants to destroy them. We won't receive poly results until tomorrow.
I would hold on the confessions until after the poly results. He might want to see them again to get his story straight. You can promise to give them to him as soon as the results are in.
If he's sincere about recovery, this should not sway his decision to undergo the poly.
On the other hand, IF he passes and moves on in recovery with you, destruction of the confession is a good idea.
He won't take the test unless I give him the papers first. I told him that I would, but he doesn't know that I have the copies.
He was also asking me about the process of everything and I told him. He asked me if I would be in the exam room and I told him no. He said that was probably a good idea, because he thought it might make him more nervous.
He went to the bank to get the cash for the poly, so I'm going to ask him to hand over the cash before I give him the papers. I want to physically see the cash. He said that he is happy with my decision about bringing the papers, just as I am happy with his decision to take the poly.
Don't get into a squabble about when you hand him the confession. Just do it. You have copies. Nothing is hurt by handing them over. Don't ask him for the cash first. Don't bicker with him. Trust that he will fulfill his end of the bargain.
Be pleasant, appreciative, respectful.
Treat it as if it were a date.
Let him know that you are anxious to put this all behind you. Tell him you see this as a fresh start for BOTH of you - and that your marriage can be stronger and better in the future.
Be mentally prepared for anything -- he may confess more this afternoon. He may back out. What are your boundries in either case?
And if he asks if you have other copies say "no" and if he doesn't believe you offer to take a polygraph yourself on such question if he wants to pay for it (as your results won't come back until his do anyway).
He's just looking for angles out of it. Lexxy's advice is perfect...just be nice and appreciative the whole time.
[smiling] "I DO trust you...but I trusted you before and look where we are today....WE (both of us) just need to insure WE are starting OUR recovery on a foundation of honesty....otherwise, what's the point???"
"There's nothing you can tell me today that will hurt me any more than I'm already hurt EXCEPT more lies...if this is the final and absolute truth let's get this done with and START rebuilding from here.....THIS is our starting point"
I will give him the papers. I have no idea what to think about today though. I'm sooooooo nervous!!! If he backs out again, then I don't think I can be in this marriage any longer.
Don't get into a squabble about when you hand him the confession. Just do it. You have copies. Nothing is hurt by handing them over. Don't ask him for the cash first. Don't bicker with him. Trust that he will fulfill his end of the bargain.
AGree with Lexxy. It is problematic that he wants those papers back because there is no other reason than to remove evidence. And why would he want to remove evidence unless he knows he is going to flunk and/or has no intention of taking the test. Just be prepared, starfish!
And continue to try to get more info from him on the way over.
Re Plan A: Sometimes the whole "meet the wayward's ENs" part of the plan muddies the waters. If the best you can do is avoid lovebusting (AO's and DJ's) then that's considered a success IMO.
If you feel a LB coming on, excuse yourself, find a quiet spot to collect yourself. If you are in the car after the poly and you feel a LB coming on, it's OK to say I need some time to think about this before I can discuss it, etc.
He said he would ride with me, but tried saying that he was planning on leaving the polygraph place to go back to his friend's house, because it was closer for him to drive. He then told me that we could ride together, not a problem if that is what I wanted to do. I told him I would see him at 3:30pm.
Oh... The guy that went on the ski trip with my husband just called me! I didn't answer, but he left me a message and said that he knew I talked to his wife and he wasn't mad or anything, but would like to talk to me and give me some clarity. I think he is a scumbag!!! He was trying to sound so pleasant on the phone, but I'm thinking that he spoke to my husband... I don't know what to think!
Your husband is in spin mode. He's got his friends backing him up now.
This caller is probably a wayward too. Telling you he's not mad because you called his wife? The only reason he'd be mad is if he has something to hide?
In some ways, the phone message just serves to confirm what you're already finding out...your WH's secret life and the friends who participate in it with him.
He's calling you to cover his own behind. You've alerted his wife to an issue, and he wants to prevent you from talking to his wife again -- now that your husband has started coming clean. Its fairly obvious that "wingman" had something going with OW2's friend that he doesn't want his wife to hear about.
i know unfortunately, i had to drive 2 hours for H and two hours back in a terrible storm, i was going to puke the whole time and even after he passed i wanted to puke. we didnt talk the whole way back and forth
I am so sorry that you have to do this, but it is necessary for you.
I hope he doesnt weasle out, stay strong and give him the opportunity to fess up more and thank him for being honest if he does. listen i kinda look at it as how much worse could it get its all bad.
He is taking the test now. I'm supposed to pick him up in an hour and 1/2. WH told me that when we were figuring out the questions that he wanted me to make sure that I was telling the guy everything that I needed to ask him, because he doesn't want me to regret not getting an answer to something that I really need to know. I kept thanking him for going through with this!!!
Had a search of operation investigate and some threads were saying iPhones are tricky to spyware (no idea if this is true though, I'm out of my comfort zone!)
A few said downloading an app is your best bet......
Originally Posted by MrWondering
Interesting article about an app for Iphone called "find my friends" which you may be able to load on your spouses new Iphone and track their whereabouts.
You should be able to do it later as long as he doesn't password lock his phone, which obviously your conditions for working on a R would bar him from doing...
I agree! We are supposed to get the results in the morning. I can't believe that he actually went through with it!!! I was starting to have my doubts! At one point during the video that we had to watch about the polygraph, he looked like he was going to get up to leave, but he didn't!
Thank you so much... I'm so thankful for all of your support! I couldn't have done it without all of you!!!
He had made dinner plans with his friend and I'm not quite ready to go out to dinner yet... waiting for the results tomorrow morning!!!
He did call to tell me that it was the most nerve wracking thing he has ever done in his life. He also said that he is wanting to start rebuilding our marriage, he has nothing to hide and loves me.
Ok, I think I'm getting a bad feeling... WH sent me this in the night:
BW, I can't sleep. I just have a bad feeling about that polygraph test. I didnt want to be there and let a machine determine the fate of our relationship, i wanted you a person to determine that. �I'm in a bad place right now just like you and I'm not myself, I'm a wreck. That whole process yesterday just made me feel anxiety and a nervous wreck. �I just want to let you know whatever happens, I have given you what you wanted, the truth about everything. �I would not have agreed to go if I hadn't of given you all the truth. I'm not going to set myself up for failure. �Now our relationship is going to be determined by a cold machine. Just know I have given you the truth, and I don't know how else to get you to believe me.
Lying comes natural to me for some reason. Maybe it's our job, we lie all day long. We call it telling the story, but were really lying to get what we want, the order. It's something we do so natural at work, maybe that has transferred to my life out of work, but I'm a good person who cares and loves.
I love you BW. I want to come home. I want to see that smile, here that laugh, swim, bike, boat, 4 wheel, hike, walk, travel, sit, talk, laugh, cry, play. �I want to hold your hand, wipe your tears, share that story, I want to do everything with you the rest of my life. More important I want to lie next to your warm body in our bed and hold you in my arms at night. If i could sail the 4 corners of the earth with you i would, just you and i. Your the most important person in my life, and I love you BW!!!
Ok, I think I'm getting a bad feeling... WH sent me this in the night:
BW, I can't sleep. I just have a bad feeling about that polygraph test. I didnt want to be there and let a machine determine the fate of our relationship, i wanted you a person to determine that. �I'm in a bad place right now just like you and I'm not myself, I'm a wreck. That whole process yesterday just made me feel anxiety and a nervous wreck. �I just want to let you know whatever happens, I have given you what you wanted, the truth about everything. �I would not have agreed to go if I hadn't of given you all the truth. I'm not going to set myself up for failure. �Now our relationship is going to be determined by a cold machine. Just know I have given you the truth, and I don't know how else to get you to believe me.
Lying comes natural to me for some reason. Maybe it's our job, we lie all day long. We call it telling the story, but were really lying to get what we want, the order. It's something we do so natural at work, maybe that has transferred to my life out of work, but I'm a good person who cares and loves.
I love you BW. I want to come home. I want to see that smile, here that laugh, swim, bike, boat, 4 wheel, hike, walk, travel, sit, talk, laugh, cry, play. �I want to hold your hand, wipe your tears, share that story, I want to do everything with you the rest of my life. More important I want to lie next to your warm body in our bed and hold you in my arms at night. If i could sail the 4 corners of the earth with you i would, just you and i. Your the most important person in my life, and I love you BW!!!
WOW.
That is bad.
He's basically blaming you for wanting proof, then admitting he is a liar, but saying his delight in having you meet all his needs somehow makes up for that. Its like your need for RH is not important so long as he gets affection in bed, RC on the boat and admiration from your laughter. Is it supposed to be news to you that you're a great wife?
Still it's not over till the fat lady sings.
If he fails the poly, just continue to be a broken record and say you need verifiable proof. Tell him you can accept him back once he retakes the poly, this time telling the truth so he passes.
I agree that his message raises some red flags. But at this point, the test has been taken, the results are coming in (soon). Try your best to stay calm and wait for them. The simple truth is that he may well told the truth and 'passed' the polygraph.
No reason to get all worked up or make any assumptions until you've gotten the results. I'll be praying for you (and him), Starfish.
Thank you so much to all of you... Your kindness, love, care and prayers bring me to tears! I seriously don't know what I would have done without all of you in the most difficult time of my life!!!
I'm trying so hard to remain calm...it is so hard!!!
Forgot to mention that I did expose OW#2's contacts through private message on fb! That was a lot of work, but it felt good once I was finished!
You exposed to her contacts? What did you say to them?
I sent the following message:
Dear friend/family of OW#2,
It grieves me to write this letter, but I believe all of her friends and family should know the kind of person she really is. OW#2 had an affair with my husband, WH, in January of this year while they were both in Colorado for the weekend. I believe that her friends should know this, so you can protect your marriage from her. My husband and I have been trying to start a family of our own and this affair has almost wrecked our marriage. I would be happy to provide evidence or details to anyone who asks.
On a grading scale, -3 or less indicates deceit, WH got a -9!!! 3x's higher than what the scale indicates as lying!
The examiner did a sample test with a number. He had WH tell the truth about the number and then lie about the number. He also showed him another chart from somebody else and had WH point out the area where the person was lying. WH showed him the exact spot and afterwards his attitude changed after, because he realized that the test was for real.
I told the examiner about the email that he sent me and that he left worried. The examiner told me this is indicitive of lying. WH knew there was something that was left unsaid. A person that was telling the truth wouldn't have left feeling worried.
I'm sure he received the results by email and he is planning on coming by after work to mow the yard and I don't want him anywhere near me!!!
He has an addiction problem and is major OCD. He needs help!!! I don't know what to do.
Keep doing what you were doing. Tell him no deal until hes passed a poly.
If you dont want to talk to him in person, send him an email saying he's failed - tell him the score indicates a high level of deceit - and may want to reconsider hiding things from you, because that won't work.
Why not go out and treat yourself to - well, whatever you want! You deserve a treat. He can mow the lawn while he thinks about what he's done. Silly wayward.
How long have you been Plan Aing for? I dont see any reason to stay in Plan A if you dont want, as you've done a brilliant one.
If you want to get Plan B going, check out my sig. It's important to prepare properly.
starfish, please do not interact with him if you don't think you can control your lovebusters.
I think many of us are not surprised given his reluctance to take the poly to begin with but then no additional confession, especially since it is pretty obvious he is not being honest about what happened with OW1 on the boat.
Have you considered talking to OW1? I am wondering if you could possibly get some information out of her. Even if you didn't, maybe you could bluff WH and tell him she told you everything and you are giving him another chance to fess up. It's a long shot but it worked for me regarding OW2 in my sitch...
So sorry he failed. The arrogance (and insanity) of people can be astounding, can't it?
Still so impressed with the way you've handled things so far starfish. This failure of your husbands does not reflect on you at all and you are showing yourself to be an incredibly strong, insightful and powerful woman.
I know indie has already laid out some great ideas (and groundwork for a plan) and that others will come in and expound on that. Hang in there and keep fighting!
He has an addiction problem and is major OCD. He needs help!!! I don't know what to do.
I am sorry you are going throug this, starfish.
If your WH is like my STBX (which I think he is), then having a traveling job would be a complete disaster since he is a possible serial cheater and because he has no boundaries with women.
He has had a secret second life for probably most of your M and I am sorry to say that I want you to brace yourself that the reason he will not fess up is because there are possibly multiple affairs that have occured here.
I don't want you to give up yet. It is possible for him to turn this around but he will have to become radically honest, which is terrifying for someone like him with so many secrets, and he will have to completely change his lifestyle. But it's up to him and all you can do is keep going with your Plan A while you prepare for Plan B. Hang in there!
I don't know what to do... I know he received the results by email too. Where do I go from here? Should I contact him or send him an email? I'm so lost right now!!!
I think I'll send him a text and let him know that I do not wanting him to come by the house tonight and I need time to process everything. Do you think this is a good idea? I don't want to LB right now!!!
Yes, I saw your response about OW#1 and think that I should call her. Do you think I should call her husband first to let him know my husband failed? What should I say to OW#1?
Well, I just told OW2 who I was and asked her to please tell me the truth about the A. She didn't tell me the entire truth but she told me more than what WH had told me. When I confronted WH that I KNEW his version was a lie, it led to even more details coming out...
OW are liars so this may not work but I think it's worth a shot, starfish.
So I guess I shouldn't leave her a message if she doesn't answer. I doubt she is going to answer the call, especially of it comes in as private or blocked.
I'm e-mailing you regarding your text since I'm at work.� First off I'm not surprised by the results, because I'm a mess, plus I was woken up out of my sleep at 4:30 last night with a gut trenching feeling about the test, and that was when I wrote that e-mail last night.� I want to tell you that I'm telling the truth.� I'm not hiding anything from you.� I'm sorry the test does not tell you that, and I know that will�weigh heavily on you, but maybe I'm one of the 5%.� I assume you don't want me to come by tonight to do yard work?� I'm glad you still want to see our MC tomorrow.� � I love you so much and miss you so much.
* My IC said that it would be good for us to discuss the results with our MC tomorrow and for me to explain that he needs to get help for himself before we can work on our marriage. I started thinking about a lot of things and my husband had to see a speach therapist at a Ver young age for stuttering, which he still does on occasion. This can be related to trauma early in life. He is also MAJOR OCD. He is very sick and I know he needs help!!
The ONLY MC you need is MB(The coaching center and online course). Until and unless your WH is ready, don't tell him about it.
He knew he was lying. He just wanted to get his hands on your evidence. It's a good thing that you made copies.
He's trying to make you believe that he is one of the 5% who the test doesn't work on. I think that he thought he could lie, and get away with it. His worries at 430am show that his conscience was telling him that he FAILED. He was super worried what you would do with that. Now he's trying to spin.
There have been worse waywards than yours. There have been ones who have been caught red handed and tried to get their BS to believe they imagined it.
This doesn't change what your plans are. Stick to Plan A for a short amount of time, and then if he doesn't show complete and total remorse, and a willingness to do everything you ask(which may include another polygraph, one which he PASSES), you would PLan B.
I really need my Psychologist right now and she is familiar with MB. She has been very concerned about me and checks on me everyday. She thought we could use our MC as a listening ear for us to discuss the poly results without things getting out of hand. I truly believe he has a deeper problem here and he needs to figure this stuff out and YES, come clean with everything! The first step is HONESTY! I cannot move forward without it. Plan A is next to impossible right now, as I do not want to speak with him on the phone. We are communicating through email and text only right now. He is staying at his friend's house for the weekend. I need my space to sort through all of this...
Do you think that I should cancel the appt. tomorrow and not discuss these things in front of our MC? I'm so lost....
I am not sure why you think OCD has anything to do with any part of this (btw, I am mentioning this a spouse of someone who has it).
He has had it since he was a child along with stuttering. He is also not a great communicator and stuffs things inside. I believe there could have been something that happened to him early in life (something traumatic). He has a problem and this is an addiction, but what has caused this? If he can't get to the bottom of it and help himself to heal, then I just don't see how we can work on our M. You have to love yourself in order to love another. I need him to come clean. Honesty is the first step.
My H and I had similar issues. H was lying, even after the polygraph. He actually passed the three questions on the polygraph, but lied about all kinds of other things. My biggest mistake was "pushing and pulling" recovery along while my H was not fully on board and committed to openness and honesty.
Your H lies because he is in the habit of lying. Just like my H, there is no other reason than he considers himself first, is selfish and entitled. He does what he wants and then lies to stay out of trouble. It has nothing to do with his childhood or if he has OCD. Whenever your H stops his dishonest behavior, not only will he feel better about himself, but he will be worthy of remaining in the marriage.
My H changed when I told him that I did not want to stay married to him and that I wanted to never see or speak to him again unless he met certain conditions. One of these conditions was attendance at an MB weekend - what is now the online program. It has been a difficult couple of years since then. But my H quit lying in Feb of 2010 and he is like a new, improved version of himself. We are in a recovering marriage.
Take a look at the false recovery thread. I think it will resonate with you.
SF, most waywards have childhood traumas. Most BSs have childhood problems. Your WH is suffering from one HUGE problem right now, and it has NOTHING to do with what happened, or didn't happen to him as a child. HE IS A LIAR. Now, as a wayward, he of course would need to be a liar. He didn't fall into this. He made choices, every step of the way that has led him to where he is now. He continues to make choices, today, which harm YOU.
Focusing on his OCD, or his childhood trauma will NOT help your marriage. It will NOT help you recover your marriage.
[If he can't get to the bottom of it and help himself to heal, then I just don't see how we can work on our M. You have to love yourself in order to love another. I need him to come clean. Honesty is the first step.
starfish, I assure you the only "issue" he has is his dishonesty and his secret second life. That is the only problem. And loving yourself is a form of narcissism that he surely does not need at all. He has enough problems right now. Focusing on his childhood and other issues is a distraction from the real problem. PLEASE don't go down that rabbit hole. Your marriage cannot afford any more distractions than you have now.
Please stay focused on the real problem and that is that he is still lying. And you know it.
Marriage counseling is more than likely NOT to help. MC's don't know how to deal with infidelity and have no idea how to build a romantic marriage.
After my H's first affair, we went to MC, too, every week for about 6 months. She didn't discuss the conditions that led to the affair, nothing about protecting the marriage (EPs.) Just a lot of blather about communication and conflict resolution.
Nothing about remorse or Just Compensation.
We still ended up with a marriage that led to more emotional affairs (H's, not mine) and PA. I never had his passwords, he wasn't committed to honesty or to POJA.
What a colossal waste of our time and money.
MB is the best way to recover from infidelity and to create a romantic and passionate marriage.
Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders
As a clinical psychologist who has been in direct therapy with 50,000 individuals and supervised over 600 counselors, I have not found that resolving issues of the past does much to help people deal with issues of the present. In most cases I've witnessed, it makes matters worse because it drags the most unpleasant experiences of the past into the present. I know that my perspective is in conflict with many therapists who are trained to treat the past before they can treat the present, but I have yet to see any convincing evidence that this approach is more effective than letting the past stay in the past. My personal experience is that dredging up the past actually increases the risk of suicide and other dangerous symptoms of mental disorders. Another important reason that I am opposed to bringing up issues of the past is that it wastes time. When you could be forming an effective plan and putting the plan into motion to resolve an issue of the present, you spend months, and even years focused on the past while the problems of the present keep building up, eventually burying the client.
"Some counselors think it's a good idea to "resolve issues of the past" by talking about them week after week, month after month, year after year. It keeps these counselors in business, but does nothing to resolve the issue. In fact, it usually makes their poor clients chronically depressed.
My experience as a Clinical Psychologist has proven to me that dredging up unpleasant experiences of the past merely brings the unhappiness of the past into the present. The problems of the present are difficult enough to solve without spending time and energy trying to resolve issues of the past, which are essentially unresolvable. You can make your future happy, but you can't do a thing about bad experiences of the past, except think and talk about them -- and that makes the bad experiences of the past, bad experiences of the present." Dr. Willard Harley
An analysis of the wayward spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them.
One of the reasons I'm not so keen on dredging up the past as a part of therapy is that it brings up memories that carry resentment along with them. If I'm not careful, a single counseling session can open up such a can of worms that the presenting problem gets lost in a flood of new and painful memories. If the goal of therapy is to "resolve" every past issue, that seems to me to be a good way to keep people coming for therapy for the rest of their lives. That's because it's an insurmountable goal. We simply cannot resolve everything that's ever bothered us.
Instead, I tend to focus my attention on the present and the future, because they are what we can all do something about. The past is over and done with. Why waste our effort on the past when the future is upon us. Granted, it's useful to learn lessons from the past, but if we dwell on the past, we take our eyes off the future which can lead to disaster.
I personally believe that therapy should focus most attention, not on the past, but on ways to make the future sensational.
I spoke with OW#1 and I do believe her. She told me that if my WH told her they were having an affair, he is lying and that is f*d up! She didn't know that he wasn't telling me about their meetings afterwards, but did say that he got s$&t from me for a whole week after their first lunch that I knew about. She told me that she did know we were trying to have a baby, so he did talk to her about us. She said that WH has been her friend for years, but they rarely spoke on the phone and texted every now and then, which seems to be true from the phone records for his personal cell phone. I explained to her the difference between an emotional and physical affair and she said she never looked at it that way, but then agreed by the definition that it must have been emotional, even though she didn't really see if that way before. She profusely apologized to me and said that she f*d up and she was truly sorry. The boat day sounded as if it was exactly the way WH described: He fished and she talked and YES, she does talk ALOT! I told her that he failed the polygraph (as she works for the Sheriff/Police dept. She is an officer). She told me that if he failed, he is still lying!!! She reminded me that she passed the sample questions regarding the numbers, but not on the main questions, so the machine is showing that he is lying! She said that she is still in NC with WH and hasn't been since the NC email and she will continue to respect my wishes. She told me that I probably wouldn't want to, but if I need to call her for anything else or if I had other questions, that I could contact her.
I spoke with OW#1 and I do believe her. She told me that if my WH told her they were having an affair, he is lying and that is f*d up! She didn't know that he wasn't telling me about their meetings afterwards, but did say that he got s$&t from me for a whole week after their first lunch that I knew about. She told me that she did know we were trying to have a baby, so he did talk to her about us. She said that WH has been her friend for years, but they rarely spoke on the phone and texted every now and then, which seems to be true from the phone records for his personal cell phone. I explained to her the difference between an emotional and physical affair and she said she never looked at it that way, but then agreed by the definition that it must have been emotional, even though she didn't really see if that way before. She profusely apologized to me and said that she f*d up and she was truly sorry. The boat day sounded as if it was exactly the way WH described: He fished and she talked and YES, she does talk ALOT! I told her that he failed the polygraph (as she works for the Sheriff/Police dept. She is an officer). She told me that if he failed, he is still lying!!! She reminded me that she passed the sample questions regarding the numbers, but not on the main questions, so the machine is showing that he is lying! She said that she is still in NC with WH and hasn't been since the NC email and she will continue to respect my wishes. She told me that I probably wouldn't want to, but if I need to call her for anything else or if I had other questions, that I could contact her.
Starfish. That is what OW said to me also. She even invited me in to have coffee anytime I needed to talk.
She was lying and she was very good at it. Looked me straight in the eye. I believed her.
I am not sure why you think OCD has anything to do with any part of this (btw, I am mentioning this a spouse of someone who has it).
He has had it since he was a child along with stuttering. He is also not a great communicator and stuffs things inside. I believe there could have been something that happened to him early in life (something traumatic). He has a problem and this is an addiction, but what has caused this? If he can't get to the bottom of it and help himself to heal, then I just don't see how we can work on our M. You have to love yourself in order to love another. I need him to come clean. Honesty is the first step.
I have OCD. It's not a reason or a cause for an affair. Don't move the goalposts.
Please don't. I have talked to STBX's two OW who both lied to me, OW3 I didn't speak with but I spoke to her BH and she lied to him. And I also spoke to my sister's WH's OW and she also lied.
I only hoped she might give you more information, but it sounds like they lined up their stories and they are sticking to it.
Dr Harley basically says that once some EN's are met outside of marriage (eg, intimate conversation) it is just a matter of time it becomes physical. Your WH and OW1 had a long time EA and they had plenty of opportunity to have a PA (like on the boat).
I am so sorry to tell you that I do not believe for one second that they did not have a PA, starfish.
I'm e-mailing you regarding your text since I'm at work.� First off I'm not surprised by the results, because I'm a mess, plus I was woken up out of my sleep at 4:30 last night with a gut trenching feeling about the test, and that was when I wrote that e-mail last night.� I want to tell you that I'm telling the truth.� I'm not hiding anything from you.� I'm sorry the test does not tell you that, and I know that will�weigh heavily on you, but maybe I'm one of the 5%.� I assume you don't want me to come by tonight to do yard work?� I'm glad you still want to see our MC tomorrow.� � I love you so much and miss you so much.
* My IC said that it would be good for us to discuss the results with our MC tomorrow and for me to explain that he needs to get help for himself before we can work on our marriage. I started thinking about a lot of things and my husband had to see a speach therapist at a Ver young age for stuttering, which he still does on occasion. This can be related to trauma early in life. He is also MAJOR OCD. He is very sick and I know he needs help!!
Total baloney. Do not get anywhere near this man. Do not go to therapy with him.
OW lied to me as well. She friended me on FB. Even though she had that she was addicted so some guy Guess who that was? She lied to my face. She lied to me on the phone. OW are GREAT manipulators. She doesn't want you to tell her BH that she was having an affair with your WH.
Yeah, give him a call. The great thing about exposure is for the BSs being able to get info from both sides. He may even have her take the poly.
The thing about that boat story is its clearly nonsense.
He went to the trouble of taking a boat out and dropping anchor to be alone with a woman he clearly had feelings for.
Why? To talk? You can do that at Starbucks.
Oh yeah, it was to give her undivided attention and reassure her, wasn't it? Except he didn't, he fished apparently, which would defeat the object of giving her his time, so that's clearly cobblers.
When a story has so many gaping holes in it, it is because it isn't true.
If her husband is a police sergeant, and hasn't been too badly gaslighted, he'll see its nonsense straight off.
If her husband is a police sergeant, and hasn't been too badly gaslighted, he'll see its nonsense straight off.
As a police sergeant, he will understand the poly results and the level of deception. I bet he is pro poly himself. It would be great if he would require one from OW himself.
Believe only what you can personally verify. That is the rule. Always.
They are in the process of going to court. Their marriage isn't looking so good and he agreed that their responses seemed verbatim. He is in denial though and said that they could both be telling the truth, but the poly results don't look good.
They are in the process of going to court. Their marriage isn't looking so good and he agreed that their responses seemed verbatim. He is in denial though and said that they could both be telling the truth, but the poly results don't look good.
That sounds alright to me. A bit foggy but I like the 'verbatim' bit. Good liar she may be but he is clearly experienced with liars.
You've given him what he needs that's the main thing. Its up to him to act on it.
I tracked him by gps and he is at our after work party that we have there once a month. He stayed for a little over an hour. Now he is heading back to his friend's house.
That's what OW do,yet more reasons to disbelieve the boat story. I was more concerned with her BH being in touch with his XW. He shouldn't be in close contact with an ex though the trouble she's causing may be out of his control. I was fishing for info because if the BH is wayward too, he won't be much help.
I have 2 believe that he would not lie 2 his dad and I.
But lying to you as he has all along is fine?
She said 'has to believe' instead of 'I know' which tells you all you need to know about her.
She knows she's in la la land, but she likes it much better than that scary reality place so she 'has to' live in denial.
Sounds like WH grew up in the kind of household where if you kept your mouth shut or bluffed hard enough, the bad stuff wasn't classed as true.
If you go Plan B, you'll prob have to plan B relatives like this who can't see the woods for the trees.
I have WHs cousin next door. She honestly wants us to reconcile and can't understand why I won't speak to him. There is the little matter of his ongoing 'friendship' with OW but she insists he loves me, cause he tells her so! So she is Plan B'd too.
And that's why you shouldn't. Not right now at least. Let some of the anger subside and some of the esteemed vets figure out a response, if there is one.
And that's why you shouldn't. Not right now at least. Let some of the anger subside and some of the esteemed vets figure out a response, if there is one.
You said your peace, she said hers.
What is there to respond to? Are you gonna convince her she's nuts? Why?
Silence is potent. Learn to use its power with grace and elan.
Your WHs whole family, nuts or not, are scared of losing you - so let her sweat.
And no more anger missy! Keep that taker in check.
starfish, I would kick back and take a few days off from your husband. He knows he lied and unless he comes to you with a plan to make this right in the very near future, there is nothing here to save. You gave him a chance and so far has failed. The ball is in his court!
Star, in addition to all the other good advice you've received I would like to add one thing. I wouldn't be texting him thought provoking questions that may make him realize you have him on GPS. If I were him, you asking if I was at so and so's house (and I actually am or have been) would red flag me that something is up. Be careful here. You don't want to inadvertently disclose your intel sources.
I did talk to our MC counselor today to let her know that I wouldn't be coming or working on our marriage until he comes clean and tells the truth. I know you all don't agree, but I changed my mind and decided to go so we could discuss the polygraph and she said she would try to get him to come clean and let him know that we can't move forward until he does.
I'm now thinking I don't want to go. Jacka$& can't even respond! I will not LB right now!!!
Starfish, you are understandable pissed. Just think about how much worse it would be if you had started recovery and then found out you were actually in a false recovery. This is the reason that you need to keep that bar HIGH.
Don't think about where he is tonight. I know it's hard. Plan A is done when there is a unrepentant spouse and/or an active A. Part of PLan A is to prepare for Plan B. I know you are angry right now, but that anger won't last forever. Your taker is ANGRY as all get out. Keep her happy. Take a break from him and take care of yourself.
I just want to remind you to keep your own boundaries extra HIGH right now. You are at your highest risk of having a affair after you have discovered your WS has had one. Just be careful.
Take care of yourself. Try to eat. Try to sleep. Don't try to contact him. He needs to chase YOU.
I did talk to our MC counselor today to let her know that I wouldn't be coming or working on our marriage until he comes clean and tells the truth. I know you all don't agree, but I changed my mind and decided to go so we could discuss the polygraph and she said she would try to get him to come clean and let him know that we can't move forward until he does.
I'm now thinking I don't want to go. Jacka$& can't even respond! I will not LB right now!!!
Should I go as planned or just be a no show?
I'd say that the way you are feeling right now, you are more likely to LB rather than anything. And what is there to discuss? He lied, he was caught, and he is still lying. He knows you want to truth FIRST. Ball's in his court.
Like Mel said, I would go dark for the weekend at least. And don't text him anymore...period. Yeah, I would be a no show. He's only going to appease you, not to sincerely fix this, so bow out. He's not serious about this, so show him YOU are.
You're chasing him right now, and he knows it. Scotty is right. You continually initiating contact with him reaffirms his beliefs that he has the upper hand. Eliminate that and let him come after you.
You're making this way too easy for him right now. Time to tighten up.
This is really the first that I have contacted him today. He is the one that was emailing me all day. He actually came by our house at lunch (thank God I saw that on GPS, because I took all my stuff and left for a bit).
I have decided that I won't go tomorrow. I know he will come by the house to check on me if I don't show or answer his emails/text messages.
Thank you do much for the compliment! I have no idea how I did it all!!!
My heart is COMPLETELY SHATTERED!!! I never in a million years thought that something like this could happen to me, us or our marriage. I realize that I'm not the only one who feels this way, because you all have experienced this too! I'm just sharing...
I love him with all of my heart and I'm mad at myself for it too! I know you all can tell I want my marriage to work. I just don't know what else I can do... All of my friends are calling me, texting me. My mom and sister check on me and are always here for me. I asked my mom to stop sweet talking my WH tonight. The only thing I want her to tell him is that he needs to tell me the truth! I'm so sick of all of this!!!
This is really the first that I have contacted him today. He is the one that was emailing me all day. He actually came by our house at lunch (thank God I saw that on GPS, because I took all my stuff and left for a bit).
I have decided that I won't go tomorrow. I know he will come by the house to check on me if I don't show or answer his emails/text messages.
Good, keep it that way except for the asking him about where he is to see if he is lying. Go a little dark for now. This is for you Star...you need a break!
SF, what your husband wants is to sweep this all under the rug by insisting he told the truth. If you allow that to happen, you will never get the truth. I don't believe for a minute he was truthful and that was evidenced by his behavior. He just decided he would take his chances and if he failed, insist that he is the "innocent 5%." Sorry, I just don't buy it.
My suggestion would be to back off and put the ball in his court. Let him know when he calls that this is very serious and you can't move forward until you have the truth. Keep this issue on the front burner until it is resolved.
One reason he might be holding out is because there is a current affair going on OR he is trying to protect the OW. I don't know why, but it is pretty clear he is protecting something or someone.
I agree with you ML! What if he comes by our house tomorrow? Should I leave for awhile, so I don't see him?
I would tell him straight up that this will never work until he comes clean. As long as he chooses to lie he is choosing to end the marriage. Emphasize that your marriage can survive his affairs, but it can't survive his lies. You need to let him know you don't believe him and that you are serious about not staying in a marriage that is based on lies and deceit.
If he doesn't come clean, starfish, I would prepare to go into a very dark Plan B. [write him a love letter giving him your conditions for return and ask him not to contact you until he meets your conditions] I don't see how you have much choice at this point. You have no hope of saving your marriage as long as he lies so you have nothing to lose except alot of grief as he continues to lie.
His trickle truth games will drive you into a nervous breakdown soon enough, so if he doesn't come clean in a week or so, I would go into Plan B. You have already been through hell and much more of this is just going to drag you down further.
I'm planning on calling our MC 10 minutes before our appt. and telling her the following:
I won't be there today. �I'm not in a good place right now and need to focus on myself right now. �Right now I'm #1 and I need to take care of me. �Nothing good is going to come out of our meeting if I show up. �My husband is a liar and until he comes clean and tells me the truth, we don't have anything else to discuss
Yeah, sorry babe. Its not exactly the best time of your life, even when you're handling it well. I have no doubt at all you're going to do great but there's no way to stop it from sucking right now.
Just finished mowing the yard... Whew! It actually felt good!
I am having anxiety about canceling our MC appt. I was wanting to let WH know how bad he scored, but I realize that he already knows. He seems to be convincing others that he told the truth too. I'm going to cancel and take my dogs out for awhile.
Yup, stay strong and don't listen to any of his toxic supporters.
Has anyone else besides MIL been trying to persuade you he's truthful? I know that's hard.
One of my WHs BFs tried to convince me he prob went to a very romantic hotel in secret (I found the receipt) alone just to get away from me cause I'm so horrible and jealous (I'm paraphrasing). This was after asking for everyones support. Thanks mate!
WH just called and left me a v/m. Asked me to call him back. Said he couldn't believe that I cancelled our appt today, because he really wanted to talk some things out with me today. Should I call him back?
If you can without lovebusting, tell him simply you can't work on the marriage while he's still lying, ignore the predictable denial and say you need the full truth and for him to pass that poly. "That is what it will take to keep me in the marriage" Then say 'love you, bye, gotta go'.
If you still feel shaky and in danger of lovebusting, text or just let him sweat till you feel calmer. Not lovebusting is the priority!
Any way you can dump this MC? She's done tremendous damage already by advising on no poly. The money would be better put aside for MB coaching, should he come clean - or spent on pedicures come to that.
Plus dumping her sends a strong message to your WH that you aren't going to let him wriggle out of stuff in a counsellors room any more. The more escape routes get closed off, the more the truth becomes his only option.
starfish, I just saw your post about the MC and want to ask you a couple of questions. If you went to MC would your MC support your position and explain that you aren't going on unless he comes clean? What scares me is that you will get in there and be ganged up on by a MC and your H and then you will have nothing to fall back on. If that happens it would be a disaster.
I think it might help to go see that MC today *IF* you have her assurance that she will try to persuade him to come clean and she fully understands that recovery cannot be based on lies.
I'm planning on calling our MC 10 minutes before our appt. and telling her the following:
I won't be there today. �I'm not in a good place right now and need to focus on myself right now. �Right now I'm #1 and I need to take care of me. �Nothing good is going to come out of our meeting if I show up. �My husband is a liar and until he comes clean and tells me the truth, we don't have anything else to discuss
Never mind, I just saw this.
I think you should text what I said previously to your husband and let him know that there is nothing to talk about until he is ready to come clean. And state that his window of opportunity is getting smaller and smaller as every minute passes.
I did speak to her yesterday and she did say that she would do EVERYTHING she could to help me get the truth, so that was why I kept the appt. with her. Last night, my WH was at a bar and didn't respond to my text that I sent him at 8:30. He texted me back at 12:30am asking, "Are you up?". I didn't respond. I'm not playing these games. I am serious. I'll let him sweat it out for a bit. He has been calling me, my mom and sister (nobody is responding). He wants to know why I cancelled our appt. I just can't talk to him right now.
Ok, I'm going to wait for a little bit... He is boating/fishing today and I'd rather him receive it when he is alone. I'm afraid that he is with his toxic brother today on our boat that is for sale!
I've been following this thread since its inception. I am very sorry for what you are going through, and I'm very angry at the cruelty of your husband. You seem to be a person of remarkable character, and he seems to be the opposite.
I am bothered that he can go out drinking at bars with friends and go fishing when his marriage is in such turmoil. It shows where his priorities are and how insensitive he is. To paraphrase from Thoreau, his actions speak so loudly, we can't hear a thing he is saying.
I don't believe that you can carry on this way for long, and I think plan B needs to come very soon. He needs a strong jolt.
In support of what others have said here, do nothing with him until he comes clean. He must answer your questions honestly and he must take another polygraph to confirm his written answers. Until he does you should be in the dark. Don't lovebust, but be very firm as you have up to this point.
His manipulation is cruel and inhumane.
Stay strong and let grace fill you during this difficult time.
Actually, she is not in plan B and should not be dark unless/until she IS.
She should avoid him if she will love bust. When with him, should show that she is a safe place to be honest (that she will handle it without lovebusting) Is willing to have a really wonderful marriage with him, but will not support his independent behaviour as a way to be married.
She should meanwhile gets everything lined up for if she needs to go dark into Plan B.
Thank you for your kind words!!! Yes, this is devastating to say the least and his actions are adding insult to injury. He is clueless! I am going to meet a friend for a bite to eat (if I can) and to talk. I took a nap today and trying to take care of myself. Today has been the first day that I actually dried and styled my hair. I put a cute sundress on too... hoping it would make me feel a little better!
I just don't understand why he is doing this to me and yes, it is very cruel!
I know she is not in plan b yet, Reading. But if her husband is not willing to be truthful, she is on a treadmill and she will be pulled under it in no time. He might be driving Starfish to a nervous breakdown. He is being manipulative and abusive, and she cannot let him obfuscate the boundaries of truth and honesty though he is working very hard (when not in a bar or on a boat) to do just that. If she negotiates on his terms she is enabling him and not getting anywhere. I said "go dark," and should have worded that differently. What I meant was do not negotiate with him. Don't give in and don't accept anything other than complete honesty. She won't know he's honest until he passes a poly. Time to go through the process she just went through again. If he refuses, than I think she should end negotiations, which might be the next step towards plan b.
This is very serious and i can't move forward until I have the truth.
Our marriage can survive your affairs, but it can't survive your lies. This will never work until you come clean. �I don't believe you and I am serious about not staying in marriage that is based on lies and deceit.
I really don't see how I have anything else left to say until he tells me that he is ready to tell me the truth.
you have to think of the chain of events to understand that I'm telling you the truth, and that there is nothing else to tell you, you know everything. I'm not going to make stuff up. �If you wanted to humiliate me, you did. I knew I did not to well on the test because I could tell by the guys reaction, and that made it even worse. I failed that test, because the questions alone haunt and hurt me, because of what I did to you and us. �I could feel the questions coming and that alone caused anxiety for what I did, not fear of what I'm keeping from you. You have to start believing that im not hidding anything else, it's all out there on the table. I have also done everything you have asked me to, to show you I am committed to fixing our marriage. I love you and miss you. I want nothing more than to start repairing us, but you have to believe me now, and I know that will be hard, but you have too. �
you have to think of the chain of events to understand that I'm telling you the truth, and that there is nothing else to tell you, you know everything. I'm not going to make stuff up. �If you wanted to humiliate me, you did. I knew I did not to well on the test because I could tell by the guys reaction, and that made it even worse. I failed that test, because the questions alone haunt and hurt me, because of what I did to you and us. �I could feel the questions coming and that alone caused anxiety for what I did, not fear of what I'm keeping from you. You have to start believing that im not hidding anything else, it's all out there on the table. I have also done everything you have asked me to, to show you I am committed to fixing our marriage. I love you and miss you. I want nothing more than to start repairing us, but you have to believe me now, and I know that will be hard, but you have too. �
He disappoints me. 2 and a half hours later and that's the best he can come up with? This guy thinks awfully highly of himself, and obviously doesn't have much respect for your intelligence. A 10 year old could see through his [censored].
Star, you may need to start thinking a about seriously dark Plan B. I'm no vet, but this guy is a master liar. By his own admission, he's done it all his life. But now it's affecting you and your well being. You need to protect you. This isn't gonna cut it. He has no remorse for what he has done whatsoever, and I mean none.
I don't know where to go from here.... Somebody please help me!!!!
I actually would respond with...
I guess I have your answer then.
Frankly, it's the truth, Star. You can't back down. He's expecting you to crumble, and you can't allow that to happen. If he really is serious, and right now he's not, he'll eventually come around with the whole truth. It's time to call his bluff in a massive way. He's playin' you and you know it. He thinks he knows he can get away with it.
Prove him dead wrong. You deserve better than this.
Unfortunately having two women makes them feel invincible and able to snow even a rockstar like starfish.
When do you wanna Plan B Sf? Do you want to give him a Plan A date first? Killer dress? Rc? Its the last impression he'll have of you..but even if you were to Plan B riight now hed have a great impression.
I don't know where to go from here.... Somebody please help me!!!!
You've been doing quite well, starfish. Your text to him this afternoon was a good move in this game he is playing. Don't back down from what you told him. He is going to try and smooth-talk you, because that has probably worked for him all his life. (Is that true? Think about it and let us know. He sounds like a habitual liar.)
He will continue to come at you with words and he will get his people behind him. Don't let his words or his family and friends confuse you. You've been very strong and smart. Keep it up.
A lot of us have mentioned plan b. I too think that is where you are headed...very soon.
Obviously WH loves you but is not making an integrated, open and honest relationship with you his number one priority (going out with friends and his bro fishing, etc).
I think that, you need to be the bestest woman you can. Don't call him a liar but tell him that you want him to 'pass a polygraph' so that you are confident going forward. That you can 'deal with any secret second life of his being revealed' but can't allow it to continue being secret. That you want integration with him and a safe marriage. A marriage you would be proud to be in. One where you make decisions with him and are a true partner in every sense of the word.
Meanwhile you do prep for a plan B should you need to go to one. You have money issues considered, IM issues considered and a beautiful Plan B letter lined up to give if you wind up having to give one.
And Plan A like you never thought you could. For you.
I will tell you that Plan B is a sanctuary but when you go into it, it is most unpleasant for you. Sorrow will engulf you for a while. You come out of it and soldier on but it is not to be jumped into without following a stellar Plan A first. For you. For you. For you. All the plans may recover the marriage, or not....but...they are for you.
Please BS: I'm begging you to understand that its the guilt of what I did to you �not guilt of hiding more. You have to understand this. I'm a mess without you
Please WS: I'm begging you to understand that its the guilt of what I did to you �not guilt of hiding more. You have to understand this. I'm a mess without you
Star, what part of cut the damned phone off did you not understand? Let him sweat. Let him choke on his lies. Let him choke on his deceit. Let him choke on his losing you for his lies.
Please don't be so harsh... I'm doing EVERYTHING that I can!!!! I'm just wondering what I should do now... I haven't responded and seriously contemplating Plan B, but wondering if anybody has sample live letters that HAVE WORKED?
The sample letter in the book Surviving An Affair can't be beat. They are not magic though. They simply state the situation, you love the spouse deeply and are willing to recover the marriage with them once they end the affair completely and meanwhile you will not be in direct contact with them.
Plan B should not be entered as a reaction to a spouse doing something like lying on a polygraph.
There are no expectations in plan A, just clarifications of how awesome YOU are.
You enter Plan B with planning and calculation and with all your ducks in a row and enter it to get out of the drama but not in reaction to one event.
Please don't be so harsh... I'm doing EVERYTHING that I can!!!! I'm just wondering what I should do now... I haven't responded and seriously contemplating Plan B, but wondering if anybody has sample live letters that HAVE WORKED?
Uh, Star, I sincerely apologize if that come across as harsh. That was not my intent at all.
Yes, you are doing everything you can, but it's a two way street. There is no way you can repair your marriage without the complete and enthusiastic cooperation of your WH. I am in no way seeing ANY efforts on his part to do this, or has any intentions to do this in the near future. I truly wish it were different, but this is the way I see it.
You need to start preparing for PB, and now. This is for yourself. You can't take much more of this.
Wondering same thing. For all that you are doing everything right Star, and that you are the obvious choice if he wants to be happy, He is free to choose misery - everyone is.
Peachyisback's H remained in love with her for years after she D'd him. He carried her Plan B letter around like a talisman. But he's still wayward to this very day. While others are recovered and have better marriages than ever.
All Plan B letters are based on The one in SAA but obviously ones personalised with love pack an extra punch.
starfish, the purpose of Plan B is not to force him into doing something against his will, but to protect you from his dishonesty. As you can see, his continued path of dishonesty is tearing you down and it will get worse. He is hoping he can bluff his way out of this.
Plan B is solely to remove you from a situation that going to harm you emotionally and physically. This situation is more harmful than even the initial discovery of the affair because when you have given him every opportunity to come clean, he continued to lie.
I have a question that has bugged me. How did you find out about his affair? Looking back, how long have you seen red flags? Do you see things in your history with him that cause you to question your history with him?
What I'm wondering is if anybody has sample letters that they can share? Anything that turned the WS around or hit home?
See my post. If you haven't been able to turn him around there is nothing you can say that will do that. You can't force him to be honest. He has gone to great lengths throughout this whole thing to lie to you. You have given him every opportunity to come clean and he persists in trying to lie. I don't know what he is hiding, but it must be pretty serious for him to go to these lengths.
When a practiced, habitual liar flunks a polygraph test, you don't give him the benefit of the doubt.
starfish, the purpose of Plan B is not to force him into doing something against his will, but to protect you from his dishonesty. As you can see, his continued path of dishonesty is tearing you down and it will get worse. He is hoping he can bluff his way out of this.
Plan B is solely to remove you from a situation that going to harm you emotionally and physically. This situation is more harmful than even the initial discovery of the affair because when you have given him every opportunity to come clean, he continued to lie.
I have a question that has bugged me. How did you find out about his affair? Looking back, how long have you seen red flags? Do you see things in your history with him that cause you to question your history with him?
Also, does OW1 have any children?
No, OW#1 doesn't have children. He told me about OW#2 when I had a list of ?'s that weren't especially for OW#1 anymore. Instead I started asking him, "Any other woman?" and that's how I found out.
I had questions about his contact with OW#1, but didn't fight the subject.
While I have seen remarkable success by people using plan A and plan B, success is by no means guaranteed. The problem with Plan B is that the unfaithful spouse may not return, nor agree to the plan for recovery, even after the affair has ended. Separation in marriage is always risky because, "out of sight, out of mind." Unless plan A leaves the wayward s spouse with the impression that returning home is an attractive choice, separation can become permanent. So before implementing plan B, you want to be sure that the last thing your spouse remembers about you is the care and thoughtfulness you offered in plan A. That way, the separation can help create, "absence makes the heart grow fonder."
As it turns out, most affairs end within six months of their seeing the light of day and 95% end in two years. Even those few that end in marriage have only a 25% rate of success. What drives affairs is passion, not commitment, and once the passion wanes, there is nothing to help the lovers restore their passion. So when passion is gone from an affair, a wayward spouse is usually motivated to return to the betrayed spouse by all of these other factors. For most, it's a logical choice.
I would continue to let him know for about a week that you don't believe he is telling the truth and can't move forward this way. Let him know this will be his last chance. Give him a few days and then send him a Plan B letter and change your locks.
Think about this for a minute. If you had just flunked a polygraph test [after fighting it tooth and nail for some time] would you be insisting you were one of the rare "5%" or would you be demanding a repeat test with another tester? That is what I would be doing. I wouldn't be demanding that you believe me, I would be demanding another test with another tester.
I just don't see any other way than plan B. I think that he thinks he can still bluff his way out of this. I can tell he has a long habit of being able to successfully lie his way out of trouble.
Were you aware of this before? Looking back, did you see other red flags in his behavior?
How much travel has he done over the past few years? I don't think he is addicted to a specific person, but to a secret second life where he engaged in regular cheating. Is that possible?
The other possibility is that he is protecting a long term affair with OW #1.
I would continue to let him know for about a week that you don't believe he is telling the truth and can't move forward this way. Let him know this will be his last chance. Give him a few days and then send him a Plan B letter and change your locks.
Think about this for a minute. If you had just flunked a polygraph test [after fighting it tooth and nail for some time] would you be insisting you were one of the rare "5%" or would you be demanding a repeat test with another tester? That is what I would be doing. I wouldn't be demanding that you believe me, I would be demanding another test with another tester.
I just don't see any other way than plan B. I think that he thinks he can still bluff his way out of this. I can tell he has a long habit of being able to successfully lie his way out of trouble.
Were you aware of this before? Looking back, did you see other red flags in his behavior?
ML: Should I mention anything to him about an honest person would want to take another test instead of saying he or she is the 5% or would this be considered LB?
Star, Let him know that it is called a lie detector test for a reason. If he thinks the test was faulty he should retake it. Otherwise the results stand. Be firm and resolved.
Ok, I think I'm already ready for Plan B. I keep waking up out of my sleep with awful stomach pains. TMI; diarrhea and dry-heaving. I can't take this pain anymore.... It's too much for me!!!!!
I'm coming by to do yard work sometime this morning and see the dogs. �If you don't want to see me then please go some where for an hour or two and let me know what time that will be. TY
He wants to come by and get our dogs to take them for a walk. My mom has offered to come by our house, so she is here when he comes by. I'm going to the beach for a couple hours with my sister and her friend.
Ok, I think I'm already ready for Plan B. I keep waking up out of my sleep with awful stomach pains. TMI; diarrhea and dry-heaving. I can't take this pain anymore.... It's too much for me!!!!!
Plan B will take care of that. It takes at least a few days to prepare though and make sure you do it thoroughly.
It has to be a dark plan and it must be impossible for him to breach it, otherwise it won't work.
Do you have a good, neutral intermediary? We have an intermediary training thread on here.
In plan B you cannot communicate directly with WH. You provide him with a contact who will act as a go between.
The Harleys say the go between must act as a "spam filter" removing all non pertinent info from messages. The IM can only pass messages regarding bills, finances etc. They will also tell the BS when the WS is ready to abide by all MB conditions and a recovery plan.
It is very stressful for a BS to hear loving, pleading words and ofentimes angry, demanding words from a WS who is still continuing an affair or secret second life.The IM sheilds them from the severe health effects of on going contact.
Everyone in my family was too angry to be suitable for the job. You need a cool head. Also an intermediary sees the addict at their worst, and I didn't want a relative to hate him so much it would end their relationship for recovery. A super experienced MBer volunteered to help me as an email contact for WH and now I am an intermediary too.
Some people ask a level headed friend to do it and the training thread on here will tell you all you need to know.
SF, the role of the IM is to remain neutral and ONLY pass on pertinent information about your finances, etc. NOTHING ELSE unless he has agreed to meet your conditions. For example, the typical WS will try to manipulate the IM into persuading you to break your silence. [how can we fix the marriage if we are not speaking?? and crap like that] He will try to get you to break your silence rather than meet your conditions. The IM has to be savvy enough to see past that and agree not to pass on anything unless strict agreement to your conditions. [other than pertinent financial issues]
I would send him something like this:
My Dear WS, I apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affairs possible. I am willing to avoid the mistakes I've made in the past and create a new life for both of us that meet your needs.
But I cannot do that until you are completely honest with me about the past. Until then, I will avoid seeing or talking to you. My friend, Sally, has agreed to act as an intermediary and will forward any pertinent information about finances, the dogs or the house.
Your affairs and your continued dishonesty has caused me enormous suffering and I cannot stay in contact with you under these conditions.
I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you in this way. You must know about the suffering I have endured because of your dishonesty, and I simply cannot be with you any longer, knowing that you are not telling me the truth. I still love you but I cannot see you under these conditions.
As soon as you are willing to be completely honest and pass a polygraph test, I will be willing to discuss our future together.
I want us to be able to rebuild our marriage someday. I want us to be able to meet each other's emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We need to build a new lifestyle in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then there will never again be a reason for us to separate. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you as my best friend.
I loved you when we married and I continue to love you right up to this day. I just cannot be with you or help you as long as you are being dishonest.
Do you have money in an account that only you can access for a good while if you go to Plan B and your WH doesn't make sure you have funds to pay your bills and for food, etc? It is an emergency fund to access if you can't get other funds to cover things.
I can't really think of anybody that would be a neutral IM. Is there a place here that I could find someone to help with that? I don't think family or friends are going to work and most of them are already emotionally involved.
I can't really think of anybody that would be a neutral IM. Is there a place here that I could find someone to help with that? I don't think family or friends are going to work and most of them are already emotionally involved.
Do you have a friend who would agree to remain neutral? she might be emotionally involved, but only has to agree to be neutral TO HIM in her interactions.
Could I just ask first what you understand Plan B to be? Have you read up on it and understand that it is a legnthy process?
You can Plan B for a max of two years - I decided on six months then to review at that six month period.
Plan B creates a WH free universe, after withdrawal you focus on creating an amazing life solely for yourself and you don't look back.
The door is left open for the WS via the Plan B letter, but the BS isn't sitting around watching that door.
I just wanted to make sure you understand that. You could have the best IMin the world (and we can help you find one) but the real success of your plan rests on you.
Its going to be hard ML, because my friends have little ones and not sure if they would be able to... I think it might be too much. We have two dogs that he wants to see also. I don't want to keep the dogs from him. They are our children right now.
We have two dogs that he wants to see also. I don't want to keep the dogs from him. They are our children right now.
Can I ask why? A big part of Plan B is letting the WS see all the consequences they didn't consider before they had an A. He didn't consider losing his lifestyle, which included the dogs, so he can't really complain about that.
While children still see the WS in plan B, they have usually gone through exposure and are q vocal about wanting Dad to end the A and come home.
There are also laws re children which don't apply to dogs. What would you do if he picked them up one day and just didn't bring them back? That would be an easy way for him to mess up your plan.
Don't cosider the WSs feelings in Plan B.They are supposed to hit rock bottom.
However if you want a dogsitter for one or two weekends a month, so you can have some free time - and have someone reliable who can make sure they get the dogs back for you on pickup, then that could work.
Its going to be hard ML, because my friends have little ones and not sure if they would be able to... I think it might be too much. We have two dogs that he wants to see also. I don't want to keep the dogs from him. They are our children right now.
I think that's stupid, starfish.
First, dogs aren't children. I've had both, and to me, it's not even close to the same. But to each his own -- if he's had children & wants to accept that analogy, fine. If he hasn't had children, then he has no idea what he's talking about. (It'd be like me telling you about what it's like living on the planet Jupiter on the basis of my having seen Jupiter through a telescope.)
Second & more to the practical point: YOU love the dogs, and so why should you have to share them because he decided he wanted to boink another woman? What justification is there for that? What justification could there possibly be?
I agree GO that she should only do it if its to her benefit.
I'm also concerned her letting him see them when she doesn't have to is EN meeting on her part - its affectionate to consider him and she cannot meet needs in Plan B
Indiegirl and GO are absolutely right. Since he is not willing to do even the very bare minimum to maintain his marriage, then I wouldn't continue to sacrifice your mental health to accommodate his love of your dogs. Dogs are not children, after all. Right now my beloved doggies have been my sisters house 7 hours away for the last 6 weeks while I am selling my house. We have all done just fine. And my dogs dont even miss me!
I do not have a desire to maintain contact IF I decide to go into Plan B. I'm sorry some of you cannot understand that our dogs ARE our children. I have been dealing with INFERTILITY for 3 years, which is extremely painful and a topic that I choose not to discuss right now. Our dogs may be the only "children" that we ever have. I would give my left arm and leg for a child. If was lucky or blessed enough to have that experience of my own (having a child), then I might know the difference between the feeling of a child and a dog. Please do not patronize me for the way that I feel about my dogs. My WH feels the same way about them and yes, meeting an EN or whatever you choose to call it, he has also suffered infertility with me. Maybe not as much as me, but he has still suffered.
The things I know about Plan B are from Indie's signature. I have asked about it before and this was the information I received. Maybe I'm not quite ready for Plan B, if I don't know EVERYTHING about it or how much time it's going to take to implement the process. I would like to know everything about it, so if someone could point me in the right direction, I would appreciate it. I would like to make the right decision for myself.
Please do not patronize me for the way that I feel about my dogs. My WH feels the same way about them and yes, meeting an EN or whatever you choose to call it, he has also suffered infertility with me. Maybe not as much as me, but he has still suffered. .
Starfish, no one means to be patronizing or suggest your feelings are not normal. On the contrary it is highly NATURAL for you to want to continue meeting his ENs.
I GET IT. I was there.
One day you're in a marriage where you wouldn't dream of making a move without considering his feelings (good marital habit) and the next you are supposed to just cut him off and not meet any of his needs (because that's a bad Plan B).
Its amazingly tough to do. Like amputating your own leg.
But do you understand the logic of why it is necessary? Why Dr H says you should not meet any of his needs in Plan B?
If you need to do some more reading, check it out. If you have more q's just ask!
I understand It's a lot to learn in a short space of time and that it is highly counter intuitive. That's why I'm asking how far on you are with the concepts.
The link in my sig is more to do with correct preparations than with the need for and reasons behind Plan B... I'll try to dig you out another link when I'm on a proper computer.
I will add that I do have fears that he could take the dogs, but if he did that I would go right to Plan D.
I have no idea how I'm going to think or feel from one moment to the next. I'm in a whirlwind and my world has been completely turned upside down.
I'm on FMLA right now and WH and I do work for the same company. Our hours are slightly different, but not by much. Eventually I'm going to have to go back to work. I can avoid him, but there is a chance we will run into each other. We very rarely see each other as it is there.
Thank you!!! Is this information (Plan B) in one of his books? I have a few books, but I'll be honest, I quit reading all of them once I discovered OW#2. Previously, we worked on Recreational Activities and EN's. I put an end to all of that when I discovered that he had still been lying to me.
My experience has taught me that the health of most women deteriorates quickly and significantly while living with an unfaithful husband. Men, on the other hand, tend to be able to weather the storm longer with fewer emotional or physical effects. I call the strategy of complete separation Plan B.
In addition to avoiding health problems, a separation also helps a betrayed spouse hang on to what remains in their spouse's Love Bank account. Daily interaction with an unfaithful spouse causes such large withdrawals, that a separation with no contact between spouses can actually help the marriage by temporarily freezing the betrayed spouse's Love Bank. When the affair is over, the betrayed spouse is less likely to divorce when the unfaithful spouse wants to give the marriage a chance to recover.
Yet another advantage to separation is that some of the basic needs met by the betrayed spouse suddenly disappear. An unfaithful spouse often overlooks the betrayed spouse's contributions. While the lover may meet two basic needs that were unmet by the betrayed spouse, the betrayed spouse may have been meeting the other three that cannot be easily met by the lover. During a separation, the unfaithful spouse can become acutely aware of what he or she is missing.
When a betrayed spouse decides that it's time to separate, I recommend complete separation with absolutely no direct contact (Plan B). The unfaithful spouse should be given the choice of having contact with the betrayed spouse or the lover, but not both. Someone should be appointed to go between spouses, delivering messages and children during visitation. But until the unfaithful spouse promises to completely end the affair, with absolutely no contact with the lover, the separation should continue. After the separation has lasted two years, with the unfaithful spouse's contact with the lover continuing, I generally recommend a divorce.
Starfish - I have infertility issues and probably will not ever bear children, we're still going through Maternal Fetal and Repro to get some second and third opinions. I have all of my animals in my will, with their guardians, and money to go to take care of them. To many people that's excessive. I call the cats the 'children'.
However, I would listen to the vets here and if he's not willing to recover the marriage I would not share the dogs. You've heard of people stealing children - you will have very little legal recourse with an animal if he takes it and waywards are not fit parents to animals or children.
Thank you!!! Is this information (Plan B) in one of his books? I have a few books, but I'll be honest, I quit reading all of them once I discovered OW#2. Previously, we worked on Recreational Activities and EN's. I put an end to all of that when I discovered that he had still been lying to me.
In SAA Jon gets Sue back because he stops meeting her needs in Plan B. The OM Greg isn't up to the job full time and the A crashes without Jon propping them up. It takes him about two years.
In your situation the OW prob meet one, maybe two needs tops. They are only adequate while you agree to meet the other needs they don't.
Starfish - I have infertility issues and probably will not ever bear children, we're still going through Maternal Fetal and Repro to get some second and third opinions. I have all of my animals in my will, with their guardians, and money to go to take care of them. To many people that's excessive. I call the cats the 'children'.
However, I would listen to the vets here and if he's not willing to recover the marriage I would not share the dogs. You've heard of people stealing children - you will have very little legal recourse with an animal if he takes it and waywards are not fit parents to animals or children.
Thank you... I know you share the pain of infertility. I'm sorry that you and your H are experiencing this and I wish you all of the best!!! This past October, we started The Creighton Model for infertility. Not sure if you have heard about it or not, but you can Google it to get more info.
The points you make about the dogs are completely valid and I do have this fear, because it did happen to me in my first marriage.
Start with the Surviving an Affair article on this site. If you put Plan B into the search function at the top, you'll get q a few articles. You should also read the book Surviving An Affair.
Thank you... I know you share the pain of infertility. I'm sorry that you and your H are experiencing this and I wish you all of the best!!! This past October, we started The Creighton Model for infertility. Not sure if you have heard about it or not, but you can Google it to get more info.
The points you make about the dogs are completely valid and I do have this fear, because it did happen to me in my first marriage.
I have not heard of it - our infertility is kind of a secondary diagnosis - I have Lupus, Bechets, Rheumatoid Arthiritis, possibly Endo, and recurrent pregnancy loss.
I've lost 3 in the first trimester.
Good luck to you and your situation, I will keep you in my thoughts.
WH and I do work for the same company. Our hours are slightly different, but not by much. Eventually I'm going to have to go back to work. I can avoid him, but there is a chance we will run into each other. We very rarely see each other as it is there.
Starfish this is a MAJOR problem with your Plan B.
I have mentioned already that you must make sure your preparations are watertight before you begin your plan.
If you start Plan B, and its easy for him to break it, he simply won't respect it. It's worse than not doing it at all.
You will also never get through withdrawal from him if you see him - or even expect to see him. Withdrawal is a very dangerous time where you are tempted to break your own plan just to see him (trust me on this - I had to practically get a jailer to keep me in line)
We need to brainstorm a way around this. Waywards become very harrassing to the BS when put in Plan B. Mine still tries to get messages through. He won't simply let you walk by.
Can you work elsewhere? Can you tell your company of the separation and that you expect harrassment from him? (cause that's a certainty) Can they make sure you're on different schedules or transfer him to another building?
Can I find all of the detailed info for Plan B in SAA book???
Its where you should start. If you understand the lovebank model, its an easy concept. Having 'extra' needs met outside the M causes the WS (already q full) lovebank to overflow. They feel great and credit the feeling to the skank who paid one or two coins in at most.
However in Plan B, the BS leaves taking all her EN coins with her and the WS realises the fulfilment came mainly from his wife.
For the BS, they go through a period of withdrawal from their WS (which hurts A LOT). Then over a period of months without the WS paying coins into the lovebank, the account 'freezes' (this has happened to me).
I don't hate my WH as I would if I'd continued to be cheated on. I don't feel a pressing need for him either. When my love bank 'froze' my bar for recovery became much higher. If he came back now, I'd be much stricter and his actions would probably reactivate my lovebank.
Also a frozen lovebank makes a divorce hurt much less if the wayward is a lost cause.
The articles contain a lot of info and I learned a lot from Plan Bers on here too.
I would call the Harley's. You're at a critical juncture here, and I don't think either Steve of Jeniffer will steer you wrong. But it is expensive. Even a one hour to ninety minute discussion can be very illuminating and clarifying.
sorry been off. Took H away for bday to arrive to a ringing phone from vet, my puppie (she 4 -ok but my baby) was attacked by a pit- but she is alive and pretty much a miracle. i am amazed so we are nursing her back and have not been on
you h is bsing you with crap he thinks hes a good liar, but not so anymore.... bc you did a great job- keep going.
read more indies story she did a amazing job.
but you need to get it clear in your head. you have done this already with you other steps we have seen it, you just need to get there, i can understand. but you can do it, we have seen your actions.
I'm feeling like I'm in limbo right now... between Plan A and Plan B. I just don't know what to do.
starfish. Do not push the Plan B button until you understand it and are commited to it. It often takes two weeks to get everything together to do a proper Plan B. Plan B can be more more harmful than good if not understood and executed properly.
It is something that you should start to study and prepare for NOW in the event that your FWH does not stop trying to fool and manipulate you...
Indie is bringing up good points that you will have to consider to do a proper plan B. Think about these things seriously and honestly. They need to be resolved before going into Plan B.
I hope your dog is doing better. I know how difficult that must've been to experience! I can't stand to see animals in pain... it's heartbreaking!
I did well up to this point because of all of the support that I have received from all of you! You all kept me going when I wanted to curl up into a ball and die. WH and I haven't discussed anything regarding our marriage or his lack of honesty. I'm just having a hard time knowing what to do right now. I can still change the locks I guess and continue with Plan A for a little longer. I just don't know how long it's going to take to break him or for him to hit his bottom. He stayed in last night and took my Sister's advice about avoiding alcohol. He said he felt better and went for a 2 mile run. He has been at his friends all day and doesn't seem like he has left his house, except when he came by today to see the dogs. I just want him to be honest with me and tell me the damn truth! I'm tired of him trying to pull the wool over my eyes. I need the truth!
My friend's husband told her that he feels whatever my husband is hiding is REALLY BAD! Thinking there are multiple women and that he doesn't believe that he is telling the truth.
Star, go read how to plan b properly in the notable post section. It will be a grat help!
Its in my sig if you ever need to review it starfish.
Originally Posted by starfish75
I can still change the locks I guess and continue with Plan A for a little longer.
Yes you can, but your Plan B prep may take some time. Your job sitch worries me. You need to get it lined up. A Plan A that lasts too long will affect your health as well as your plans
Originally Posted by starfish75
I need the truth!
Tell me about it! I have made it my motto (see below)
she is alive- if i sent pix you would not think so. thank you
i think he when he knows he has lost it all he will hit rock bottom. how are you responding to him, are you stepping back for fear of him leaving? lets look at the facts, you have a liar and a cheat you can take him back and he will always be that, or you can continue doing (Like a superstar) what you are doing and show him that you deserve better than that.
you are good with plans, the vets have told you what to do, but you need to sleep on it and figure out what you already know, do not settle for less than you deserve, i think ( like me ) you had been doing that for too long.
really what would be worse in you head than what he has already done?
What if he is bi-sexual or something? Something really dark?
Then he won't pass a poly while hiding it. I doubt it somehow tho. You've made it clear you'll hear out any secret. He prob is keeping quiet because he wishes to continue his addictions and he can't do that if you know about them.
He operates under the 'what she doesn't know won't hurt her' model and that will be the death of you.
Yes Starfish, he could have something darker than you thought but don't let that distract you from getting the truth.
Also, if/when you go to plan B....do not share the dogs. Do you really want him either constantly coming into your home and displacing you while hanging out with the dogs or taking the dogs and using them as props for his relationship with other women?
I know I wouldn't want a dog of mine around any OW. No way.
You can take care of your dog babies all by yourself. Plan for that! Being a single dog owner indefinitely.
I actually don't think you are nearly ready in any way for plan B.
My friend's husband told her that he feels whatever my husband is hiding is REALLY BAD! Thinking there are multiple women and that he doesn't believe that he is telling the truth.
Well, really bad has varying definitions around here. I think we all know what's going on (yourself included) but much worse has happened on these boards than what we all know is going on now. It's not pleasant with what you are having to deal, but this is the hand you've been dealt. Gotta play it.
The awful irony of all this to me is that he feels the truth will drive you further away, when in fact it would be the best thing he could do to have a chance to save his marriage. He doesn't seem to realize, like we do, just how strong you are, how much you love him and are willing to try and work through this if he's completely truthful.
My friend's husband told her that he feels whatever my husband is hiding is REALLY BAD! Thinking there are multiple women and that he doesn't believe that he is telling the truth.
Well, really bad has varying definitions around here. I think we all know what's going on (yourself included) but much worse has happened on these boards than what we all know is going on now. It's not pleasant with what you are having to deal, but this is the hand you've been dealt. Gotta play it.
The awful irony of all this to me is that he feels the truth will drive you further away, when in fact it would be the best thing he could do to have a chance to save his marriage. He doesn't seem to realize, like we do, just how strong you are, how much you love him and are willing to try and work through this if he's completely truthful.
Thank you so much!!! What should I do right now? I'm just at a loss... He already knows I need the truth.
I agree with you about the dogs... I've been thinking about it and I agree with you 100%!!! If and when I move into Plan B, he would not be allowed contact with the dogs.
Thank you so much!!! What should I do right now? I'm just at a loss... He already knows I need the truth.
Start reading up on Plan B.
This will take your mind off the other distractions and will help to give you more of a sense of control as you start to prepare your Plan B in the possibility that you might decide to go there.
My friend's husband told her that he feels whatever my husband is hiding is REALLY BAD! Thinking there are multiple women and that he doesn't believe that he is telling the truth.
Well, really bad has varying definitions around here. I think we all know what's going on (yourself included) but much worse has happened on these boards than what we all know is going on now. It's not pleasant with what you are having to deal, but this is the hand you've been dealt. Gotta play it.
The awful irony of all this to me is that he feels the truth will drive you further away, when in fact it would be the best thing he could do to have a chance to save his marriage. He doesn't seem to realize, like we do, just how strong you are, how much you love him and are willing to try and work through this if he's completely truthful.
Thank you so much!!! What should I do right now? I'm just at a loss... He already knows I need the truth.
Star, I'm not a vet by any stretch, just a guy that's been there and done that and completely sympathizes with you. But if I were in your shoes, I would just sit him down and just lay it out like I described. Just tell him that his lies are unacceptable. Tell him how much you love him and are willing to try and recover from this if you have the whole truth. Let him know that hiding information is not helping (no matter HOW much he thinks he's protecting you), but hurting recovery chances if he chooses to not fully disclose and take the poly to verify. Anything less is just unacceptable.
If he refuses, then I guess you should severely prep for Plan B.
Unless, of course, you're willing to settle for less than the entire truth.
My friend's husband told her that he feels whatever my husband is hiding is REALLY BAD! Thinking there are multiple women and that he doesn't believe that he is telling the truth.
This is the feeling I am getting too. I don't think he is addicted to a specific OW, but to serial cheating. He is protecting a secret second life. What makes me think this is the casual sex he had with OW#2. That was not your typical affair, but a married man who believes he is entitled to have sex anywhere anytime and cares so little about his marriage that he would risk over some cheap fun. That is the mentality of a philanderer. This is another reason I don't believe the story you are getting about the other OW. Your husband has no boundaries, nor did the OW, so the story makes no sense.
sf, I think you should get ready to go into Plan B and then just go dark with no warning and no notice. Furtherd discussion is going to be very emotionally dragging to you since you already know that he is going to bluff his way of out of this. He still believes he can lie his way out of this, so further debate is just going to drag you down more.
I would get everything ready and then go into a very dark Plan B. One thing I would add to that letter in order for you to consider reconciliation, he would have to stop traveling. His traveling job has enabled his secret second life.
Starfish, how will you ensure No Contact while you and WH work at the same place? Is there anyway that you can expose the A to your boss, and ask them to help you ensure that you will have ZERO contact with your WH?
My friend's husband told her that he feels whatever my husband is hiding is REALLY BAD! Thinking there are multiple women and that he doesn't believe that he is telling the truth.
Well, really bad has varying definitions around here. I think we all know what's going on (yourself included) but much worse has happened on these boards than what we all know is going on now. It's not pleasant with what you are having to deal, but this is the hand you've been dealt. Gotta play it.
The awful irony of all this to me is that he feels the truth will drive you further away, when in fact it would be the best thing he could do to have a chance to save his marriage. He doesn't seem to realize, like we do, just how strong you are, how much you love him and are willing to try and work through this if he's completely truthful.
Thank you so much!!! What should I do right now? I'm just at a loss... He already knows I need the truth.
Star, I'm not a vet by any stretch, just a guy that's been there and done that and completely sympathizes with you. But if I were in your shoes, I would just sit him down and just lay it out like I described. Just tell him that his lies are unacceptable. Tell him how much you love him and are willing to try and recover from this if you have the whole truth. Let him know that hiding information is not helping (no matter HOW much he thinks he's protecting you), but hurting recovery chances if he chooses to not fully disclose and take the poly to verify. Anything less is just unacceptable.
If he refuses, then I guess you should severely prep for Plan B.
Unless, of course, you're willing to settle for less than the entire truth.
Thank you! No, I'm not willing to accept anything less than the whole truth and nothing but the truth! I appreciate your idea about sitting him down (vet or not), your willingness to offer me some ideas/options/guidance/support means a lot to me!!!
i agree with ML. i just think there is more than the 2 i am sorry but i have been there.
in a very honest raw moment I sat him down and told him that if he wasnt honest i was gone. look at my tread from march to may its only like 15 pages or so. I did the poly after he gave me it all. so he passed, i was relentless on snooping and questions. and going on my gut that it was not right ( but i did have blind spots that h was not lying anymore- i was wrong). i think he has more in his past and he thinks he is clean with the two he gave you.
i think you are very strong but now you have to be a strong biatch ( not in i LB way) just a know what is right way. that requires a bit of sleep and a whole lot of courage ( which we have seen- but a bit more)
i also agree with tiger and this "The awful irony of all this to me is that he feels the truth will drive you further away, when in fact it would be the best thing he could do to have a chance to save his marriage. He doesn't seem to realize, like we do, just how strong you are, how much you love him and are willing to try and work through this if he's completely truthful. "
Starfish, how will you ensure No Contact while you and WH work at the same place? Is there anyway that you can expose the A to your boss, and ask them to help you ensure that you will have ZERO contact with your WH?
Yes, I can and I can also walk around to avoid seeing him. As I mentioned before, we rarely see each other at work.
i agree with ML. i just think there is more than the 2 i am sorry but i have been there.
in a very honest raw moment I sat him down and told him that if he wasnt honest i was gone. look at my tread from march to may its only like 15 pages or so. I did the poly after he gave me it all. so he passed, i was relentless on snooping and questions. and going on my gut that it was not right ( but i did have blind spots that h was not lying anymore- i was wrong). i think he has more in his past and he thinks he is clean with the two he gave
sf, I think you should get ready to go into Plan B and then just go dark with no warning and no notice. Furtherd discussion is going to be very emotionally dragging to you since you already know that he is going to bluff his way of out of this. He still believes he can lie his way out of this, so further debate is just going to drag you down more.
I would get everything ready and then go into a very dark Plan B. One thing I would add to that letter in order for you to consider reconciliation, he would have to stop traveling. His traveling job has enabled his secret second life.
I'm doing my best to read up on Plan B. I'm sure I'll have questions along the way... Thank you!
Starfish, how will you ensure No Contact while you and WH work at the same place? Is there anyway that you can expose the A to your boss, and ask them to help you ensure that you will have ZERO contact with your WH?
Yes, I can and I can also walk around to avoid seeing him. As I mentioned before, we rarely see each other at work.
Rarely is too often when you are in Plan B. You need to do EVERYTHING to get the taken care of, and now. There was a poster who was in Plan B while she worked with WH, and it was bad for her. YOU will be tempted to peak at him to see what he is doing. Others will be telling you what he is doing. He will be able to find you and talk to you. This needs to get fixed, and SOON.
Starfish, how will you ensure No Contact while you and WH work at the same place? Is there anyway that you can expose the A to your boss, and ask them to help you ensure that you will have ZERO contact with your WH?
Yes, I can and I can also walk around to avoid seeing him. As I mentioned before, we rarely see each other at work.
Rarely is too often when you are in Plan B. You need to do EVERYTHING to get the taken care of, and now. There was a poster who was in Plan B while she worked with WH, and it was bad for her. YOU will be tempted to peak at him to see what he is doing. Others will be telling you what he is doing. He will be able to find you and talk to you. This needs to get fixed, and SOON.
I am not in Plan B yet and currently on leave from my job, so I don't think this is going to be an issue for me right now. I am taking everything in right now and trying to do my best to learn about Plan B first.
A lot to consider before going into plan b. I went in too early. I didn't give enough time to leave a favorable impression that my spouse would remember in the event that things go south with her affair. So I had to go back to plan a even though she's no longer living at home. Still in plan A today.
Whatever path you choose, I think for sure you need to establish a clear line with your husband that you can't begin any form of recovery until he learns to be radically honest. Right now he is radically dishonest.
I'll let the vets recommend whether or not you stay in plan A or Plan B. I still recommend that you spend an hour with one of the Harley's as this is really a critical juncture. They will set you on the right course for sure.
If you want to read chickadee's thread, click on her name (in blue in the greyed-out sidebar to the left) and then hit the link for "posts" that she has dropped. Once there, be sure to go back a few pages to find her thread.
I was trying to log-in to his Yahoo account last night and WH must have received a message about someone trying to change his password. I wasn't trying to change his password, just tried to enter the correct one. He sent me a text last night letting me know that he received a message about his account and asked me what I'm up to. I haven't responded. What should I say?
I noticed that he made a phone call to the police dept this morning (according to cell phone records). Seriously?
And he can go to MC by himself. Text him back with, "MC will be totally useless to our marriage until you are willing to tell me the whole truth about our marriage. You need to come clean, and PASS a polygraph for me to consider working on our marriage."
Don't respond to him about the yahoo. And why did he call the police? Who knows? What reason could he have? Maybe to find out about what he can do about the dogs? Find out his legal rights to access them? At the vet, whose name are they under? Not that it totally matters, you would deal with small claims court about them usually anyways. They are usually considered property. Speaking of legal rights, do you know all of yours?
I know that you aren't in Plan B yet, but you are preparing for it. As I have said, you can't enter Plan B as long as you work in the same place as your WH.
I am not trying to get on your Facebook. �I have no reason. �You said you deleted it anyway. �I have nothing to hide. �It's your decision to keep things secret and continue to hide and lie. �
As for marriage counseling:
Marriage counseling will be totally useless to our marriage until you are willing to tell me the whole truth about our marriage. You need to come clean, and PASS a polygraph for me to consider working on our marriage. And of course I want to work on our marriage, but you are making that impossible by not being radically honest... painful or not, I deserve the truth. I will not stay in a marriage based on lies.
Think about this for a minute. If i had just flunked a polygraph test [after fighting it tooth and nail for some time] do you think i would be insisting you i was one of the rare "5%" ? �No way! �I would be demanding a repeat test with another tester!!! �That is what I would be doing. I wouldn't be demanding that you believe me, I would be demanding another test with another tester.�
If (name of ex-friend) took a test such as this, knowing what a liar he is, would you believe him saying that he was the 5%? �I already know your answer on this one.
Your passed all of your test questions, which confirmed that you were telling the truth and lying. �According to the polygrapher, once you realized this, your attitude changed, because you knew how the test was going to turn out if you lied. �The only way to pass the test is to tell the truth. �The test is based on a scale with -3 or less showing deceit. �You scored a -9, which was 3x's more. �Telling the truth is easy. �Whether you are trying to protect me from further pain, it is actually causing me more pain for your lying to continue. �You have the choice to do the right thing. �Think about what you are hiding from me, the full truth about OW#1/OW#2, the bachelor party you took years ago, bachelor party in Vegas, other women, flings with customers, other vacations that you took, men, etc? �Think about all of these things and whatever it is that you are withholding. �I deserve to know the truth. �I have repeatedly told you that I'm willing to work on our marriage, but our marriage cannot even start in the rebuilding phase until you are honest. �I still love you WH, but I cannot be in a marriage based on lies. �
That is a super message, starfish. I am just so sorry about this, but I think I would be sorrier for you if you remained married to a philanderer. I can tell that his lifestyle has contributed to this in a huge way.
Honestly, I'm not sure I can go through with Plan B. I think if this continues, then I'm going to move to Plan D. I just don't know how much more of this I can take. He is obviously lying about a lot. Have you seen other cases like this that have turned around?
Honestly, I'm not sure I can go through with Plan B. I think if this continues, then I'm going to move to Plan D.
I'd still recommend Plan B. You should Plan B him for your mental health while filing for divorce.
It's very common for Plan Bers to file for a D purely for financial protection (have you seen a lawyer about your finances etc while separated?) Some have remarried for recovery or stopped the D.
I am in Plan D because I want a divorce, but I am still Plan Bing him because I enjoy the peace. Up till the D is final I'd consider any genuine remorse on his part, but I dont care if I never see it.
Since you are still in love with him, you are on the emotional rollercoaster and you are likely to be harrassed by him, I'd put in place a dark Plan B as it is essential for your healing.
I wouldnt pull the D trigger at this point anyway. You want to file from a cool, collected frame of mind.
Originally Posted by starfish75
Have you seen other cases like this that have turned around?
I know Dr H once wanted to post an article about a serial cheat who had spent years in that lifestyle whom he had helped through recovery. The man's wife didnt want it published though. They were happy, apparently and the FWH wanted to share his inside knowledge of the addiction to help others. Not massively common but possible.
I think the plans will help you avoid all the 'what ifs' by knowing you gave everything your best shot. I'm really proud of my good Plan A and unbroken Plan B and know I couldnt have done any more. I know it could take another year for my H's A to end, but I'm not interested as I've done my best and will have no regrets when I divorce.
Honestly, I'm not sure I can go through with Plan B. I think if this continues, then I'm going to move to Plan D. I just don't know how much more of this I can take. He is obviously lying about a lot. Have you seen other cases like this that have turned around?
Plan B is to protect you from him, and even if you do decide to divorce, I would encourage you to follow Plan B as much as possible for your own emotional health.
Starfish, how will you ensure No Contact while you and WH work at the same place? Is there anyway that you can expose the A to your boss, and ask them to help you ensure that you will have ZERO contact with your WH?
Yes, I can and I can also walk around to avoid seeing him. As I mentioned before, we rarely see each other at work.
THIS is your top priority right now.
Good to hear your employers will be supportive, but it still sounds a bit hit and miss even so
When you say 'walk to avoid him' it sounds like he can easily anticipate that, lie in wait and just try to waylay you.
Can you make it so you are CERTAIN you will never run into each other and so he has no way to intrude on you at work or on your way in? Going dark means making sure.
I can't quit my job right now. I'm on FMLA and filling out paperwork for short term disability if needed. I get it about the job thing, but as I mentioned, I HIGHLY doubt I would see him. I'm still learning about Plan B, not in it yet. I'm changing the locks tomorrow. I'm going to have to order the SAA book, because I really don't have enough info on Plan B. I'm trying the best I can. If Plan B isn't going to work, because of my job, then I don't know what I'll do... I guess Plan D. If I end up going into Plan D anyway, then i would be sorry that I quit my job, because I have been there for a long times, pays well and I have great benefits. I didn't cause any of this and yet I feel that I would be taking even more security and safety from myself that has already been taken from me by WH. I want to stand tall!
starfish, just take your time and read up on Plan B. There isn't much more about it in the book SAA, but it is good to fully understand it before you take the plunge.
WS, I understand where your coming from, but there is nothing left to tell. Sorry I have poured it all out. �I have left a message for a counselor, I hope to hear from him soon.
The part of Plan B which will be of most benefit to you, whether you do Plan D or not, is withdrawal and the subsequent healing.
The problem with your 'doubt' that you will not see him is that it is not a certainty. Even if you are right and you never see him from this day on, every day you go to work you will be triggered by the thought you 'might' see him and triggers stop you getting through withdrawal.
Let me give you an example. How aware are you of your phone right now? That it might ring and be him? Even if your WH was to never call you again, without changing your number (as you do in Plan B) you would know it was POSSIBLE for him to ring you and every ring would be a trigger. Every day it didnt ring would be a rejection and a different type of trigger. When the number changes you have no idea if he does/doesnt want to contact you and you stop waiting.
His having access to you at your workplace is like his having your number. You will know that he could easily try to meet you by chance and will be constantly waiting for that. Daily trigger. There could also be genuine chance meetings and again, you will be every day aware of that chance , so daily trigger.
One thing I must stress is that Dr H finds infidelity more damaging than physical abuse, rape or the loss of a child. You have been attacked in the worst way and while your attacker COULD heal you if he wanted, the daily chance of running into your unrepentant attacker is harder to manage than you might think right now.
If you go to work each day with the consciousness you might, just might, see him today - no amount of meds will help.
Is it fair? No. Is it your fault? No. But standing tall is not the same as volunteering for mental abuse.
What alternatives are there? Can you work from home? Another location? If you quit would he be forced to support you legally?
I can't quit my job right now. I'm on FMLA and filling out paperwork for short term disability if needed. I get it about the job thing, but as I mentioned, I HIGHLY doubt I would see him. I'm still learning about Plan B, not in it yet. I'm changing the locks tomorrow. I'm going to have to order the SAA book, because I really don't have enough info on Plan B. I'm trying the best I can. If Plan B isn't going to work, because of my job, then I don't know what I'll do... I guess Plan D. If I end up going into Plan D anyway, then i would be sorry that I quit my job, because I have been there for a long times, pays well and I have great benefits. I didn't cause any of this and yet I feel that I would be taking even more security and safety from myself that has already been taken from me by WH. I want to stand tall!
The reason why the job will have an impact is that because he's such an aggressive liar is that while historically you haven't run into each other at work, imagine delivering a Plan B letter and having him RESPECT the boundaries of that letter.
Sorry - I just don't see that happening in your situation. I see him aggressing you into acquiescing your boundary on his lies, coercing you into believing him or he won't leave you alone. Since you're at work, and less likely to cause a scene there, he will deliberately and intentionally and willfully seek you out, BECAUSE you went to no contact.
He will be in your face about it because he wants what he wants and feels entitled to it.
I would get another job, pronto. I would look into self-employment. But no matter how this shakes out as Plan B or Plan D, you will not be able to be in a safe place while employed at the same place as him.
Have you read other people's threads who have done Plan B themselves?
Plan B isn't that difficult to understand. There's not much to it. It's complete and total separation from your WS. That's pretty basic for the explanation, the emotions, etc are the things that you can't learn from books.
I can't quit my job right now. I'm on FMLA and filling out paperwork for short term disability if needed. I get it about the job thing, but as I mentioned, I HIGHLY doubt I would see him. I'm still learning about Plan B, not in it yet. I'm changing the locks tomorrow. I'm going to have to order the SAA book, because I really don't have enough info on Plan B. I'm trying the best I can. If Plan B isn't going to work, because of my job, then I don't know what I'll do... I guess Plan D. If I end up going into Plan D anyway, then i would be sorry that I quit my job, because I have been there for a long times, pays well and I have great benefits. I didn't cause any of this and yet I feel that I would be taking even more security and safety from myself that has already been taken from me by WH. I want to stand tall!
The reason why the job will have an impact is that because he's such an aggressive liar is that while historically you haven't run into each other at work, imagine delivering a Plan B letter and having him RESPECT the boundaries of that letter.
Sorry - I just don't see that happening in your situation. I see him aggressing you into acquiescing your boundary on his lies, coercing you into believing him or he won't leave you alone. Since you're at work, and less likely to cause a scene there, he will deliberately and intentionally and willfully seek you out, BECAUSE you went to no contact.
He will be in your face about it because he wants what he wants and feels entitled to it.
I would get another job, pronto. I would look into self-employment. But no matter how this shakes out as Plan B or Plan D, you will not be able to be in a safe place while employed at the same place as him.
WS, I understand where your coming from, but there is nothing left to tell. Sorry I have poured it all out. �I have left a message for a counselor, I hope to hear from him soon.
"You don't need a counselor to tell the truth, but a willingness to be truthful. There is nothing more to discuss until I have the full truth and you pass a polygraph."
What Scotty says about the experience of Plan B not being in books is correct.
Starfish, I went into a dark Plan B under the guidance of our Queen B Scotland, here (listen to her!) She is the reason my plan never broke once and why I have already achieved a personal recovery.
You're in fight mode right now, but that juice will depart soon making you flop.
This is where Plan B is needed urgently, and a dark curtain falls where it is impossible for him to reach you and you must resist reaching him. Sound easy? Its not. You cannot imagine how painful and tempting withdrawal is.
For three weeks, if you lash yourself to the mast you can resist that siren song of wanting him, but not for long. However if you never get through withdrawal you'll never be able to resist.
My plan was ultra dark with no triggers, but I still wanted to call his phone to hear his voice and one time came dangerously close to spying on OWs house but resisted.
I DID however cave slightly and googled his name. That little trigger kept me in withdrawal for about two more days. Luckily I resisted unblocking his FB which would have unleashed a haul of triggers.
If you are triggered so often at work, you'll never do it.
WH just texted me and asked me if I knew where his truck keys were at? I told him no. How would I know? He came by (unannounced), unlocked the door and came in to get his truck keys. I told him that I have no reason to take his truck keys or do anything else nasty to him. I am focusing on myself right now. I told him if he didn't believe me about his truck keys that I would gladly take a polygraph and I would pass it because I have nothing to hide. I told him that I would pass a polygraph about any subject and pass because I have nothing to hide and I'm not lying about anything!
I'm not worried about my job right now. I'm on leave. When I am able to return to work, I will make sure that I do not see him and I have others who can screen my calls and I can block his email.
He texted me and apologized and said his head is everywhere. He said he still loves me and wants to fix this.
I responded: I love you too WH, but I need the truth. �Maybe you are protecting me, maybe you are protecting yourself and have buried the truth in you somewhere. Maybe you're being as honest as you can with me RIGHT NOW! �Remember you said the same thing to me after OW#1 and now you are telling me the same thing again and you failed the polygraph. �You need help...you need to find the truth inside of you and come clean or this will eat you alive. �You are eating me alive with your lies. �You were my whole world!!! �Please do the right thing. �I cannot move forward until you do. I want to save our marriage, but you need help and I need the truth.
Yeah, sounds like you're veering into lovebusting territory (not surprising after a few weeks trickle truth) just dont reply or respond while you feel this way.
Do you see he is now trying to deliberately prod you with accusations which is VERY typical. He doesnt like how calm and decided you've been.
Originally Posted by starfish75
I will make sure that I do not see him and I have others who can screen my calls and I can block his email.
Those are all good measures with calls and email etc and I like the phrase 'make sure' as certainty is important.
Let's run through some other points to be certain as I'm stuggling to understand how you work in the same place yet your paths will (definitely) never cross. Try to give us some detail. Bear with me, its usual in Plan B for us to help you to spot the gaps in your plan beforehand if there are any.
Do you work in same building? Same car park? Can WH come by your office/department? Is your office/department close to his? Are you ever in your office/department on your own? Do you use the same entrances/lifts/stairwells? Do you use the same corridors/break areas/cafeterias? Is there any chance of being in the same meetings/conferences as him? Would there be anything you could do if he started staking out these areas? Is it likely you would look over your shoulder in these areas? How much hassle would it be to constantly dodge him?
Yeah, sounds like you're veering into lovebusting territory (not surprising after a few weeks trickle truth) just dont reply or respond while you feel this way.
Do you see he is now trying to deliberately prod you with accusations which is VERY typical. He doesnt like how calm and decided you've been.
Originally Posted by starfish75
I will make sure that I do not see him and I have others who can screen my calls and I can block his email.
Those are all good measures with calls and email etc and I like the phrase 'make sure' as certainty is important.
Let's run through some other points to be certain as I'm stuggling to understand how you work in the same place yet your paths will (definitely) never cross. Try to give us some detail. Bear with me, its usual in Plan B for us to help you to spot the gaps in your plan beforehand if there are any.
Do you work in same building?
Yes
Same car park?
Yes, but I can have this changed.
Can WH come by your office/department?
He doesn't and has no reason to.
Is your office/department close to his?
Opposite ends of the building
Are you ever in your office/department on your own?
No
Do you use the same entrances/lifts/stairwells?
Yes, but he comes in later and leaves later than me. We also have different lunch hours.
Do you use the same corridors/break areas/cafeterias?
No, I bring my lunch. If I wanted something from our cafe, I would ask someone else to pick it up for me.
Is there any chance of being in the same meetings/conferences as him?
Possibly once a month with the whole company, but he doesn't go a lot of times because of his hours. He wouldn't have access to me.
Would there be anything you could do if he started staking out these areas?
I would avoid any areas that he uses. He is major OCD and I'm sure he will continue to use the same restrooms, etc. I can use a restroom at the other end of the building and he wouldn't see me.
Is it likely you would look over your shoulder in these areas?
No
How much hassle would it be to constantly dodge him?
Not much hassle at all. I have two very close women that work with me and I could ask them to accompany me whenever needed. We have worked for the same company for 7 years and most people wouldn't be able to work together, but it has worked for us, because we rarely see each other. I have to physically walk by his desk to see him. We are sedentary most of the day.
I'm not worried about my job right now. I'm on leave. When I am able to return to work, I will make sure that I do not see him and I have others who can screen my calls and I can block his email.
How long will you be on leave for? I am still keeping my fingers crossed that when he sees that you are not going to give in, that he will decide to give up his SSL...
OK, starfish, you will have to trust us on this: Waywards HATE Plan B and most try to break it. The folks who think they don't need to worry about this or that are the ones whose WSs get through.
The only way you could convince me that you don't need to worry about him breaking your Plan B at work is if you can be guarnateed that he will be denied access to any area of the building or parking lot that you would use at any time.
OK I'm starting to get an idea of where your gaps are.
Originally Posted by starfish75
Do you work in same building?
Yes
OK
Same car park?
Yes, but I can have this changed.
Waywards are obsessed with breaking your plan. If he made a habit of staking out both car parks or alternating where he parked, could you stop him?
Can WH come by your office/department?
He doesn't and has no reason to.
His reason would be to break your plan. All waywards do this the way all waywards lie. Would you be able to make sure he's barred from your dept before returning to work and could you call security/a manager if he breaks it?
Is your office/department close to his?
Opposite ends of the building Ok
Are you ever in your office/department on your own?
No Good! The best Plan B barriers are people. Would thay all know/help?
Do you use the same entrances/lifts/stairwells?
Yes, but he comes in later and leaves later than me. We also have different lunch hours.
It's a dead cert that he would linger just to see you. This is a real problem. Seeing him, even fleetingly, would set your withdrawal back to zero. I suppose you could have your employers speak to him about not approaching you, but could anything be done about him hanging out in the lobby?
Do you use the same corridors/break areas/cafeterias?
No, I bring my lunch. If I wanted something from our cafe, I would ask someone else to pick it up for me.
OK.
Is there any chance of being in the same meetings/conferences as him?
Possibly once a month with the whole company, but he doesn't go a lot of times because of his hours. He wouldn't have access to me.
Seeing him in a conference just once would set your withdrawal clock back to zero. Could you just not go to any?
Would there be anything you could do if he started staking out these areas?
I would avoid any areas that he uses. He is major OCD and I'm sure he will continue to use the same restrooms, etc. I can use a restroom at the other end of the building and he wouldn't see me.
He could choose to go there, not to use the restroom, but to see you.
Is it likely you would look over your shoulder in these areas?
No
How much hassle would it be to constantly dodge him?
Not much hassle at all. I have two very close women that work with me and I could ask them to accompany me whenever needed. We have worked for the same company for 7 years and most people wouldn't be able to work together, but it has worked for us, because we rarely see each other. I have to physically walk by his desk to see him. We are sedentary most of the day.
If he was actively lurking and intent on seeing you though?
OK I'm starting to get an idea of where your gaps are.
Originally Posted by starfish75
Do you work in same building?
Yes
OK
Same car park?
Yes, but I can have this changed.
Waywards are obsessed with breaking your plan. If he made a habit of staking out both car parks or alternating where he parked, could you stop him?
Can WH come by your office/department?
He doesn't and has no reason to.
His reason would be to break your plan. All waywards do this the way all waywards lie. Would you be able to make sure he's barred from your dept before returning to work and could you call security/a manager if he breaks it?
Is your office/department close to his?
Opposite ends of the building Ok
Are you ever in your office/department on your own?
No Good! The best Plan B barriers are people. Would thay all know/help?
Do you use the same entrances/lifts/stairwells?
Yes, but he comes in later and leaves later than me. We also have different lunch hours.
It's a dead cert that he would linger just to see you. This is a real problem. Seeing him, even fleetingly, would set your withdrawal back to zero. I suppose you could have your employers speak to him about not approaching you, but could anything be done about him hanging out in the lobby?
Do you use the same corridors/break areas/cafeterias?
No, I bring my lunch. If I wanted something from our cafe, I would ask someone else to pick it up for me.
OK.
Is there any chance of being in the same meetings/conferences as him?
Possibly once a month with the whole company, but he doesn't go a lot of times because of his hours. He wouldn't have access to me.
Seeing him in a conference just once would set your withdrawal clock back to zero. Could you just not go to any?
Would there be anything you could do if he started staking out these areas?
I would avoid any areas that he uses. He is major OCD and I'm sure he will continue to use the same restrooms, etc. I can use a restroom at the other end of the building and he wouldn't see me.
He could choose to go there, not to use the restroom, but to see you.
Is it likely you would look over your shoulder in these areas?
No
How much hassle would it be to constantly dodge him?
Not much hassle at all. I have two very close women that work with me and I could ask them to accompany me whenever needed. We have worked for the same company for 7 years and most people wouldn't be able to work together, but it has worked for us, because we rarely see each other. I have to physically walk by his desk to see him. We are sedentary most of the day.
If he was actively lurking and intent on seeing you though?
Answered your questions above^^^
[/quote]
Frankly I don't think that it is realistic to expect to be able to go through Plan B while still working in the same building. I think indiegirl's comments about how to try to close the gaps show how unrealistic it is: I just don't think you can. And the plan doesn't work when it's modified.
I think if it's getting to all of this, then I'll just divorce him!
But deciding on a divorce won't help you avoid the strain of betrayal.
If you file for divorce, that isn't a magic pill that will stop you heading for a nervous breakdown. It won't stop him cake eating with you either.
I have a friend who was betrayed who did a traditional Plan D and was determined to just get rid, however she did not block contact (nor did she maintain contact)
It took her three years to stop weeping on a daily basis and she still feels unhappy a lot of the time. He intrudes in her life all the time even though he's not welcome. At her most vulnerable he has continually tried to back her into trying recovery without any real assurances and she has nearly caved on numerous occasions. She suffers from anxiety and pAnic attacks and is half the weight she was before DDay.
I have been in Plan B a year and have felt fantastic for most of that time. Better than at any time in my life. Even though WH has typicallly tried every way he can, he couldn't break into my plan with a crowbar.
You're strong, Starfish. Itd be nice to see you stay that way.
Plan D is fine, I went into Plan D at the same time as Plan B. Your lawyer may even tell you you have to for protection.
Just don't think that hell let you go. He still thinks he just has to lie harder and he will persue with more lies than the ones that have hurt you so far.
Plus you'll never know if Plan B would have affected him in the right way.
However it ALWAYS delivers a personal, if not marital recovery.
Starfish, Plan D would be less work, as reading pointed out, and it won't be any easier, as Indie pointed out. If you think Plan A is hard, Plan B is harder. Recovery is harder yet. Are you prepared for that?
And I understand not wanting to leave your job, and feeling like you shouldn't have to, you are the betrayed after all, but really, is a job worth more than your emotional well-being? And how good at your job will you be if you have a nervous breakdown?
Your WH IS going to try to break through your Plan B. Trust us. We've seen it, MANY MANY times. We speak from experience.
I think I just need some time to decompress. I have been so strong and weak at times and just feel that I need a break and to take care of myself to rebuild my strength and gain focus and perspective on everything. I'm exhausted...
Self care is the most important thing. You've been doing pretty well with everything but make sure you follow the BS daily rules -ensure you eat, sleep, have treats and hugs!
I'm not saying there may not be smaller things a counselor may pry out of me over time stuck deep inside, but there is nothing as big as the bomb I have already dropped on you. I promise u that WS.. I'll let you know as soon as I book my appointment�
He is asking if he can come by after work to talk to me. Maybe he is wanting to get some things off his chest or things he's been holding in (still lying about).
I'm not saying there may not be smaller things a counselor may pry out of me over time stuck deep inside, but there is nothing as big as the bomb I have already dropped on you. I promise u that WS.. I'll let you know as soon as I book my appointment�
I don't post much, but this one got me. "Pry out of me?" Sounds like strong resistance to me.
I'm not saying there may not be smaller things a counselor may pry out of me over time stuck deep inside, but there is nothing as big as the bomb I have already dropped on you. I promise u that WS.. I'll let you know as soon as I book my appointment
Of course there�s the basic and obvious deception � I�m not hiding anything, honest hon...
But the sub text is pretty fascinating, too. He�s saying he doesn�t have any more to tell, but a counsellor could 'pry out' hidden stuff? What on earth would he want to do this for if he had in fact told you everything?
Well it�s a dangerous practice to analyse the words of a raving wayward but I am always struck by how much they love counselling, and feel the promise of counselling may fix everything without anyone taking action or accepting blame.
It�s the result of telling themselves the �cant help it� there is no action they can take (or want to take) and so there must be something wrong with them.
The addict clings to the belief they are too damaged to do anything about their addiction, because they don�t want to take the obvious and necessary steps to changing
His text is screaming 'Im not gonna change'. I would say he needs to hit rock bottom to stand a chance of considering it.
Sounds like he's just trying to set up another round of trickle truth.
I don't know - but isn't the right path to continue with the "no reason for us to talk right now, we can talk after you've passed a lie detector" line?
he would have to actually tell her things before passing as he is clearly not telling her the whole truth but dont know if he needs to do it in person or just write it down.
I didn't even assume he wanted to talk to tell her any new info. I figure it was just more of the "I'm telling you the truth ... you need to believe me ... I love you ...", except he thinks doing it in person will be more effective than texting, since that hasn't worked.
Wow. He is so very wayward and I don't see a snap of a finger fixing him soon.
Sure, meet with him. You are still in plan A.
When you are with him, you don't get angry, disrespectful, etc BUT you don't believe what he says just because he is kind of convincing. If logic points to him lying, you simply know it and are pleasant but matter of fact and firm when pressed on whether you believe him or not.
He is putting a whole lot of energy into trying to convince you he is being truthful versus being truthful. IYKWIM?
Let's have it be a given, he is lying and lying about lying and understand openess and honesty are something he needs skills with to be a good husband.
I didn't even assume he wanted to talk to tell her any new info. I figure it was just more of the "I'm telling you the truth ... you need to believe me ... I love you ...", except he thinks doing it in person will be more effective than texting, since that hasn't worked.
I agree. He predict he believes he can beat her down some more.
starfish, I am getting very worried about you, hon, and think you should consider going into Plan B sooner rather than later. I understand the job thing needs to go on the back burner for now.
The counselor that my Sister's friend referred does know a lot about addictions and lying. He is an addict and former liar and he said this woman is unbelievable. He said it will take some time, but he feels that she can help. He is a completely different person today... an honest person. My sister has even seen his transformation.
He told me that **edit** is sick (all addicts are) and he needs help. I am willing to give him a small amount of time, but told him the clock is ticking. I think the reason for his one text was because I know he is still lying to me and himself and that maybe he is stuffing it due to shame/guilt or protecting me or him from more pain, but I still need the truth. I can't move forward without the truth. This is what I told him last night. My sister (former addict) also believes that he will come clean, but she said its going to take some time.
SF, I am a former professional liar and addict, and I can tell you that one does NOT need counseling to tell the truth. They only need a willingness to tell the truth. He is accustomed to being able to lie his way out of predicaments and he believes he can do that here.
But if he wants to take the counseling route, I would strongly advise you to go into Plan B while he works it out. He doesn't need counseling to tell you the truth, he only needs willingness and he doesn't have that now.
In the meantime, he is tearing you down so bad that you are going to have post traumatic stress disorder when this is all said and done. What he is doing is about as cruel as it gets. Even if he told you all the truth TODAY, you are facing a very long, hard road.
Going into Plan B has 2 big benefits: it protects you from his trickle truth head games and it motivates him to come clean.
And no, he is not protecting you. He already knows how much his lies hurt you. He is protecting HIM. I tell you this as a FORMER PROFESSIONAL LIAR.[and addict]
Liars lie when they know they can get away with it. Any good liar would LOVE to go to counseling for a few years to work out their "issues" to avoid telling the truth. If your husband is going to take that route, then you need to end contact with him until he works out his "issues." He needs to understand there is unlikely to be a marriage left when the spirit moves him to tell the truth.
starfish, mine didn't take a polygraph but several here have done it. Most often they pass the test because they get the truth out beforehand. I can only think of one guy that flunked and it turns out he was lying. Most of them that are still lying avoid taking the test at all.
So....I think that your WH agreed to take the test and lied and thinks it is valid to talk his way out of it by lying about lying adds an extra layer of what you are dealing with to recover. A bit more change he has to make to be your husband. More he has to work through.
I'm not saying there may not be smaller things a counselor may pry out of me over time stuck deep inside, but there is nothing as big as the bomb I have already dropped on you.
The only "smaller thing" that could have caused him to flunk the test is having sex with another woman. That is the smaller thing that caused him to flunk. And he wouldn't need someone to "pry" anything out of him if he were willing to be honest.
I agree with what you all are saying, but how did YOU know that your WH was telling everything and being honest without a polygraph? I agree my WH is still withholding information, but I would like to hear from others that have experienced something like my situation. I know there is more truth to be told.
starfish, mine didn't take a polygraph but several here have done it. Most often they pass the test because they get the truth out beforehand. I can only think of one guy that flunked and it turns out he was lying. Most of them that are still lying avoid taking the test at all.
What happened with this guy that failed the polygraph?
SF, I am a former professional liar and addict, and I can tell you that one does NOT need counseling to tell the truth. They only need a willingness to tell the truth.
Yes.
And starfish, my guess is that your WH is also unwilling to give up his SSL & the lifestyle that has enabled it.
Who else on here had their WS take a polygraph and how many times did they take it? Did they pass or fail?
Hi Star, sorry you're going through this.
My H passed his and I thought he would fail. We had a two hour car ride to get it done and asked him numerous times if there was anything he wants to tell me and he said that he had told me everything. He was calm, confident and anxious to get it done. In the back of my mind, I reasoned that was acting like that because he thought he could weasel his way out of the polygraph but I did my research and trusted the results of the polygraph than him.
One of the questions that has been comforting to this day was:
Other than OW#1 & OW#2 was there anyone else before we were married, during, and after? (It wasn't exactly worded that way because I wanted to have a broad question on 'anyone' if he had physical relation with men or non-human).
I'm glad he passed and we are able to move forward, although at a snail paced, toward recovery and living the Marriage Builders lifestyle.
I'm glad that you took a leave after you found out, please continue to take care of yourself and perhaps see a doctor for medication.
starfish, mine didn't take a polygraph but several here have done it. Most often they pass the test because they get the truth out beforehand. I can only think of one guy that flunked and it turns out he was lying. Most of them that are still lying avoid taking the test at all.
What happened with this guy that failed the polygraph?
His wife has moved out and filed for divorce. She was so worn down from his trickle truth that she couldn't take it anymore.
I agree with what you all are saying, but how did YOU know that your WH was telling everything and being honest without a polygraph? I agree my WH is still withholding information, but I would like to hear from others that have experienced something like my situation. I know there is more truth to be told.
The thing is that you have given him every opportunity to come clean and he has turned you down. You can't force him to tell the truth. And no amount of counseling will force a person to be honest against his will. He could go to counseling for a 100 years and it wouldn't make a difference if he is not willing. All it takes is willingness. Your H believes he can bluff his way out of this.
I agree with Susie that he is very addicted to his secret second life and knows that by coming clean he would have to give that up.
I lived with someone who was never truthful. Unless I caught him in a lie. Unless I discovered something. Unless I investigated.
And then he only admitted what I could prove.
I had to become a pro at asking the "right" question. Because he would only answer what he was asked, so he thought it was ok to leaving information out -- if I hadn't very specifically asked EXACTLY for the information.
It can drive you out of your mind.
I would NEVER allow myself to live in that environment again, where I don't know the TRUTH of my life.
We spoke with our MC (Psychologist)... Our MC seems to believe that my H is telling the truth.
then:
Originally Posted by starfish75
Recent text:
I'm not saying there may not be smaller things a counselor may pry out of me over time stuck deep inside, but there is nothing as big as the bomb I have already dropped on you. I promise u that WS.. I'll let you know as soon as I book my appointment
starfish. Ths is why your WH is trying to go the "counselor" route to pry it out of him. It worked very well for him previously. He is hoping that it will work again. And he is going to drag it out for years as it is stuck deep inside.
Starfish, it may well take time to come clean, but he can decide to do it tomorrow. He knows it, too. The only thing stopping him is motivation.
Right now he knows that if he can get you to 'just trust' he can continue getting massive dopamine hits from random women, over and above the hits he gets from you.
The addiction to the dopamine highs - more addictive than crack cocaine - is what motivates him right now. He knows full well he wouldn't get the same highs from silly skanks, unless he has you to cheat on..
It is quite serious that he took the poly to purposefully lie. That's wayward even for a wayward. He will prob have to hit bottom hard to rid himself of addiction.
While his needing help is prob true, you can't stick around to do it because a)you create half the dope he is addicted to and b)you'd have a nervous breakdown.
Without you meeting needs, his A highs are inadequate and get lower and lower until he becomes miserable. He will hit rock bottom. This is the point where waywards reconsider whether their addiction is worth it. Some see this as motivation to change, some don't.
Meantime you will have gone 'cold turkey' yourself by not contacting him which will make a divorce hurt less, if one is meant to be.
My FIL left me a message this morning wanting to know how I was doing, told me he loved me etc. and to give him a call later when I had a few minutes. I haven't called him back yet.
I relalize what you are saying about him hitting rock bottom and believe he was close to it yesterday, but then he heard my voice on the phone and he started to feel better.
I relalize what you are saying about him hitting rock bottom and believe he was close to it yesterday, but then he heard my voice on the phone and he started to feel better.
Precisely! You got it. We BS stop the wayward from hitting rock bottom. That's part of the reason Dr H tells us to step aside and allow rock bottom to happen in Plan B.
Without rock bottom the addict is sitting in a crack factory with zero reason to leave
In the military, they break down their new recruits so they can mold them into the soldiers they need them to be. Think of Plan B as that, for you, and for your WS. You are at your bottom when you enter Plan B, and you help your WS by allowing them to hit theirs.
You will get to build yourself up into a person who can have a fulfilling marriage.
Yup, that is an excellent description of Plan B Scot.
The first few weeks are NOT FUN. Complete strip down of the soul. I would say there are two days where things peak which particularly suck. Perhaps the most awful days of my life, worse than Dday (its where the real sting of infidelity hits, without any shock to cushion the blow). Though I'm agnostic, there was a point I begged God to help me. I'd do it all again tomorrow tho.
Because you come through that short term withdrawal so strong. Its easy to be happy very soon after. Like a catharsis. The following months of Plan B just build you up more and more, day by day I honestly could handle anything now.
Should I call my FIL back? What should I say to him?
Ill defer to the vets but I wouldn't bother trying to garner his support or anything. You asked him to support you. Its up to him what he does after that. Call him to be civil if you want, but don't put yourself out. When my very loving and supportive FIL went about town telling everyone WH 'wasn't really' in an A after exposure, I just let the matter drop without a word.
Originally Posted by starfish75
Yes, I think I'm almost ready for Plan B. He is at a bar again tonight... I'm sure he is eating too, but I know drinks are involved.
The end bit of Plan A, where you begin to flag and they are still flaunting their bad habits in your face, is so hard I know.
If you still need an intermediary, I'd be happy to help out as an email IM. If you want to, just ask the mods for my email addy.
Yes, I think I'm almost ready for Plan B. He is at a bar again tonight... I'm sure he is eating too, but I know drinks are involved.
Should I call my FIL back? What should I say to him?
Yes, I would call him back. And tell him that you know your H is not telling the truth. Explain to him that your H is going to have to come clean and pass a polygraph in order to continue the marriage. Remind him that it would be ludicrous to give him the benefit of the doubt after his long history of dishonesty.
Also, I don't agree you shouldn't be snooping. You are supposed to snoop and need to know what he is doing.
I think the first step for you is to stop your snooping..
Reading makes a great point. Snooping is usual in Plan A, but after a failed poly you KNOW he's lying - the details will only bug you.
Maybe give the password/snooping tools over to a trusted friend and only have her tell you anything if its significant. I wouldn't dwell on evry bit of intel at this point.
The best way to get through the snooping while in Plan A is to KNOW that the pain WILL end once you enter Plan B. I continued to snoop via a VAR on my WH. I am happy I did, because I knew some of his plans, ie taking my BED when he was moving out. That didn't happen. There were other things, but honestly, I would have to re-read my thread because I am so far out from it, it has no effect on me anymore. THAT'S one of the MANY things you gain from doing a PROPER Plan B. Mine still has holes, especially through the children, but for the most part, I am in total darkness, and it's a heck of a lot better than where I would have been otherwise.
She needs to continue snooping until she goes into Plan B. Snooping is PART OF Plan A and she has no reason to stop and every reason to continue.
starfish, keep watching him as long as you can.
Ditto
Starfish, here's how you phrase the polygraph .... Every time it is the topic. You:" polygraph? What a great opportunity for you. (cheerfully) You are so fortunate to have that opportunity to clear yourself."
Change the definition every time the topic comes up.
Should I call my FIL back? What should I say to him?
Ill defer to the vets but I wouldn't bother trying to garner his support or anything. You asked him to support you. Its up to him what he does after that. Call him to be civil if you want, but don't put yourself out. When my very loving and supportive FIL went about town telling everyone WH 'wasn't really' in an A after exposure, I just let the matter drop without a word.
Originally Posted by starfish75
Yes, I think I'm almost ready for Plan B. He is at a bar again tonight... I'm sure he is eating too, but I know drinks are involved.
The end bit of Plan A, where you begin to flag and they are still flaunting their bad habits in your face, is so hard I know.
If you still need an intermediary, I'd be happy to help out as an email IM. If you want to, just ask the mods for my email addy.
Hi Indie! Yes, I'm interested in you being my IM. How do I ask the mods for your email? Thank you so much for offering... I'm in tears!
She needs to continue snooping until she goes into Plan B. Snooping is PART OF Plan A and she has no reason to stop and every reason to continue.
starfish, keep watching him as long as you can.
I will continue snooping while still in Plan A. I'm trying to find the Plan B love letter that you sent me a few days ago. I also need to work on my addendum/criteria. Any advice for me on this?
Again, I want to thank all of you for being such a great support for me in this extremely difficult time! It means so much to me!!!
It's a lot easier to advise people who act. You have a lot to do with where you are. I just hope that you continue on that path. You will not only survive your WH's affair(s), you will THRIVE. Give yourself a pat on the back as well. It is well deserved.
Spoke with my FIL tonight... We had a good talk. He just hasn't known what to say to me and thinks its good that his son and I are doing our best to focus on ourselves right now. I told him that I want our marriage to work and I can forgive (eventually), but I need the truth. I think he still believes that his son wouldn't have taken a polygraph unless he was telling the truth. I explained to him the process and what exactly happened, how his son passed the test questions and then failed the real questions and his scoring. I then explained to him that his son admitted to me that he has issues with lying and was hoping that the counselor could pull more out of him.
I also reassured him that if I happen to pull away a little in the very near future, that it didn't mean I wanted to end the marriage, but I needed to do what is best for me right now in my healing and becoming a stronger, better person. He mentioned that he understood and was concerned about our communication during this time (if it came to that)... I told him that I believed communication would be important regarding financial things,etc. and poosibly a mediator (unbiased) could help us with this, if needed. He agreed 100%, so this is a good thing! I told him that I have things I need to focus on for myself and his son has things he needs to work on too. I also told him that I hoped it could bring us closer again in the near future and believe that we could have an even stronger, more loving and fulfilling life long marriage.
Starfish, it may well take time to come clean, but he can decide to do it tomorrow. He knows it, too. The only thing stopping him is motivation.
Right now he knows that if he can get you to 'just trust' he can continue getting massive dopamine hits from random women, over and above the hits he gets from you.
The addiction to the dopamine highs - more addictive than crack cocaine - is what motivates him right now. He knows full well he wouldn't get the same highs from silly skanks, unless he has you to cheat on..
It is quite serious that he took the poly to purposefully lie. That's wayward even for a wayward. He will prob have to hit bottom hard to rid himself of addiction.
While his needing help is prob true, you can't stick around to do it because a)you create half the dope he is addicted to and b)you'd have a nervous breakdown.
Without you meeting needs, his A highs are inadequate and get lower and lower until he becomes miserable. He will hit rock bottom. This is the point where waywards reconsider whether their addiction is worth it. Some see this as motivation to change, some don't.
Meantime you will have gone 'cold turkey' yourself by not contacting him which will make a divorce hurt less, if one is meant to be.
Indiegirl: I sent one of the mods a message, so hoping to get the ball rolling! Thank you from the bottom of my heart!!!
I believe I didn't respond to the correct post of yours, but it's regarding IM request.... Thank you!!!
Finished my love letter for Plan B and now working in the addendum/conditions. Does anybody here have examples? Or, knowing my situation, things that I should add?
Per the advice of my psychologist, I'm going to go to WH's individual counseling session with him. I was thinking that I would ask to speak with her alone first, as not to love bust. My psychologist is wanting me to lay down the dynamics of what is going on so he cannot BS her. Any advice on what to say to her?
I will be changing the locks on the house and I have my Plan B love letter finished. Still have some work to do, but off to a good start!!!
Per the advice of my psychologist, I'm going to go to WH's individual counseling session with him. I was thinking that I would ask to speak with her alone first, as not to love bust. My psychologist is wanting me to lay down the dynamics of what is going on so he cannot BS her. Any advice on what to say to her?
I will be changing the locks on the house and I have my Plan B love letter finished. Still have some work to do, but off to a good start!!!
Correction: I'm only going to attend his first session, which is this evening.
My psychologist is wanting me to lay down the dynamics of what is going on so he cannot BS her. Any advice on what to say to her?
This is a great idea. Let her know that he doesn't really need counseling because analyzing childhood traumas will only justify his continued deceit and drag things out longer...he just needs to decide to become honest.
If I'm not careful, a single counseling session can open up such a can of worms that the presenting problem gets lost in a flood of new and painful memories. If the goal of therapy is to "resolve" every past issue, that seems to me to be a good way to keep people coming for therapy for the rest of their lives. That's because it's an insurmountable goal. We simply cannot resolve everything that's ever bothered us.
Instead, I tend to focus my attention on the present and the future, because they are what we can all do something about. The past is over and done with. Why waste our effort on the past when the future is upon us. Granted, it's useful to learn lessons from the past, but if we dwell on the past, we take our eyes off the future which can lead to disaster.
Should I call my FIL back? What should I say to him?
Ill defer to the vets but I wouldn't bother trying to garner his support or anything. You asked him to support you. Its up to him what he does after that. Call him to be civil if you want, but don't put yourself out. When my very loving and supportive FIL went about town telling everyone WH 'wasn't really' in an A after exposure, I just let the matter drop without a word.
Originally Posted by starfish75
Yes, I think I'm almost ready for Plan B. He is at a bar again tonight... I'm sure he is eating too, but I know drinks are involved.
Indie: I emailed one of the mods yesterday, but haven't heard back yet. The end bit of Plan A, where you begin to flag and they are still flaunting their bad habits in your face, is so hard I know.
If you still need an intermediary, I'd be happy to help out as an email IM. If you want to, just ask the mods for my email addy.
Correction: I'm only going to attend his first session, which is this evening.
What is your plan if the psychologist validates your husband that you should just "have faith" in him and believe him? Then your H will be less likely to ever tell you the truth. And he will be less likely to ever comply with your conditions in Plan B.
Correction: I'm only going to attend his first session, which is this evening.
What is your plan if the psychologist validates your husband that you should just "have faith" in him and believe him? Then your H will be less likely to ever tell you the truth. And he will be less likely to ever comply with your conditions in Plan B.
I don't think she will. My Sister's friend saw him and said she can see through all the BS! I actually spoke with her on the day is received his poly results. I'm thinking about calling her again before his appt and asking her if I can speak with her alone first. I will be firm about what I'm needing and ask her what her plan is. I'll let you all know what she says and how I feel about it.
I'm not saying there may not be smaller things a counselor may pry out of me over time stuck deep inside, but there is nothing as big as the bomb I have already dropped on you. I promise u that WS.. I'll let you know as soon as I book my appointment�
From what I can tell the whole point in him wanting to go to the counselor is to (a)continue avoiding telling you the whole truth, (b) avoid taking responsibility for lying (per the "counselor may pry out something stuck deep inside" comment) and (c) distract you with childhood/past issues.
IC is a wayward's dream come true as it is a distraction from making changes and taking responsibility. If he does somehow decide to get honest with you and pass a poly, I would even tell you to make part of your conditions for R that there is no IC.
I think you need to keep hammering him with the point that you are not going along with these games, that you know he is not being truthful and that this is going no where until he gets honest. This isn't about him needing counseling. This is about him making a decision to become radically honest
I don't think she will. My Sister's friend saw him and said she can see through all the BS!
People don't understand just how deceitful and manipulative waywards can be, including counselors and psychologists.
My older sister even was falling for the "I need help to fix myself" baloney that my STBX was spewing when he was posting here. You may want to read his thread so that you can see for yourself how waywards use this tactic...as it looks like your WH is going down the same path...
My psychologist is wanting me to lay down the dynamics of what is going on so he cannot BS her. Any advice on what to say to her?
Can't you just tell her over the phone?
Yes, I just called and left her a message. What do you think I should say to her exactly?
I would keep it very simple and factual - WH has a history of cheating and lying to you about the cheating. He has trickle truthed you for the past six weeks and you have told him you need for him to become radically honest and pass a poly. Aside from failing the poly, it is very clear that he is still lying because his story doesn't make sense.
My psychologist is wanting me to lay down the dynamics of what is going on so he cannot BS her. Any advice on what to say to her?
Can't you just tell her over the phone?
Yes, I just called and left her a message. What do you think I should say to her exactly?
I would keep it very simple and factual - WH has a history of cheating and lying to you about the cheating. He has trickle truthed you for the past six weeks and you have told him you need for him to become radically honest and pass a poly. Aside from failing the poly, it is very clear that he is still lying because his story doesn't make sense.
And make it clear to the counselor that you are not waiting around for him to get counseling. If he wants his marriage he comes clean now.
WH just called me and said his counselor was more than willing to meet me, but she wanted to talk to him alone....lol! She hasn't called me back yet either.
We had a family reunion planned for August for his side of the family out of town. He just sent me the following text:
Just letting u know you have a ticket to anywhere southwest flys if you need to get away for a week. �I can take care of the dogs if u decided to go. Just thought I'd let u know, because ticket is paid for
I didn't do Plan B but Indiegirl, Scotland, Estrela are all great examples of Plan B done well.
RocketQueen is an example of someone who sent out the letter for Plan B but still continues to communicate in Plan B. Her lovebank is diminishing and it appears to have taken a great emotional toll on her.
I just want you to make sure when you push the Plan B button that you are all in and are ready with firm boundaries. I would think about the potential cracks in your plan so you can work up ideas how to plug them.
Haven't been to church in a LONG TIME, but going tonight. Mutual friends of ours invited me to attend their service tonight. The man is BF's with WH. I look very cute tonight...
I still need major help on my addendum, so if anybody has any ideas, please let me know. Thank you!!!
Part of my addendum was originally this, which may work for you:
Quote
Finances: I expect you to continue supporting us as you were before you had your affair so that we can afford the mortgage and bills. If you decide you will not support us in this way, I will be forced to file for divorce in order to financially protect myself and the children.
A wise MB friend helped me to rework it to this to be less confrontational:
Quote
You have always provided wonderfully for our family. Without your continued financial support, our family will be destitute. I assume you will continue to deposit funds into our family account on a weekly basis as you always have, in order to maintain as much stability as possible in our children's lives.
I recognize how valuable your relationship with our children is for them, and so I will do my best to support and encourage your visitation with them. Please email your weekly work schedule and preferred visitation times to Christine every Sunday night so that we can arrange times for them to spend with you. When you arrive to pick them up, the children will be waiting for you and will come out to meet you at the end of the driveway. Please honor my request that you not come up to the house.
I apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped to make your affairs possible. I am willing to avoid the mistakes I've made in the past and create a new life for the both of us that meet your needs.
But, I cannot do that until you are completely honest with me about your past. Until then, I will avoid seeing or talking to you. My friend (), has agreed to act as an intermediary and will forward any pertinent information about finances, the dogs or the house.
Your affairs and your continued dishonesty have caused me enormous suffering and I cannot stay in contact with you under theses conditions. This is not to punish you, it is to protect my feelings for you and our chances at reconciliation. If we continue as we are now, there will be nothing left.
I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you in this way. You must know about the suffering I have endured because of your dishonesty, and I simply cannot be with you any longer, knowing that you are not telling me the truth. I still love you, but I cannot see you under these conditions.
(Thjnking about adding the following paragraph to the addendum or should I leave it in the letter?): As soon as you can be completely honest and pass a polygraph test, I will be willing to discuss our future together.
I want us to be able to rebuild our marriage someday. I want us to be able to meet each other's emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We need to build a new lifestyle in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then, there will never again be a reason for us to separate.
More than anything, I want to make our marriage together stronger and closer than we ever thought possible. With all of my heart, I want to build a new marriage with you. One in which we both feel loved, safe, cherished and honored. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And, I want you as my best friend.
I loved you when we married and I continue to love you right up to this day. I just cannot be with you or help you while you as long as you are being dishonest. I want to grow old with you. I loved you more than life itself while we were together. You were my soulmate.
When you find yourself willing to truly and fully commit to our marriage, willing to work on a plan for our recovery, I will be ready and willing to discuss our future.
With my love, BW
*This is what I have so far... Might need a few adjustments, but I like it so far!
Addendum.... not quite sure how to word this page!
1). Full confession 2). Pass polygraph 3). Sincere, remorseful apology 4). A detailed recovery plan??? 5). Belongings (location) 6). Finances: he handled all of the bills before and makes over 2x's what I make, so not quite sure how to go about this. 7) Build healthy boundaries and know what they are 8) Complete transparency in everything you do 9). Answer all of my calls/texts ASAP! 10). No overnight trips (business or personal) without your wife. 11). No hanging out at bars without your wife 12). Shared passwords for all financial/personal/email accounts
* should I add something about not seeing our dogs until he can commit to these things?
He won't disclose anything about his counseling session, but said his counselor believes that she can help him. She told him that in order to do so, he needs to be honest and open with her 100% and to keep their meetings confidential for the time being. She did say that I could call her, which I'm planning on doing tomorrow. I asked him what she thought she could help him with and he said that the goal was lying and dishonesty.
I would do a couple changes. One which is a bit disrespectful in wording and the other which uses the word 'soulmates' which really is a romantic fallacy and vague (though seemingly powerful)
Originally Posted by starfish75
WS,
I loved you when we married and I continue to love you right up to this day. I just cannot be with you or help you while you as long as you are being dishonest. not completely honest. I want to grow old with you. I loved you more than life itself while we were together. You were my soulmate.You are the man I want to spend my life with.
When you find yourself willing to truly and fully commit to our marriage, willing to work on a plan for our recovery, I will be ready and willing to discuss our future.
Addendum.... not quite sure how to word this page!
1). Full confession 2). Pass polygraph 3). Sincere, remorseful apology 4). A detailed recovery plan??? 5). Belongings (location) 6). Finances: he handled all of the bills before and makes over 2x's what I make, so not quite sure how to go about this. 7) Build healthy boundaries and know what they are 8) Complete transparency in everything you do 9). Answer all of my calls/texts ASAP! 10). No overnight trips (business or personal) without your wife. 11). No hanging out at bars without your wife 12). Shared passwords for all financial/personal/email accounts
* should I add something about not seeing our dogs until he can commit to these things?
starfish, leave that part out for now. This is what can be discussed if he agrees to meet your conditions in your letter. Hold this for later.
Please tell me the order I should do everything in Plan B too!
Changing the licks, letter, personal belongings, etc.
starfish, you can figure this out, but you might want to change the locks first and then send him the letter. You set it up so you don't have any discussion about the letter so that might mean you mail him the letter or leave it on his porch.
You might also pack up his belongings, place them in the garage and have your IM tell him he can retrieve them.
I apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped to make your affairs possible. I am willing to avoid the mistakes I've made in the past and create a new life for the both of us that meet your needs.
But, I cannot do that until you are completely honest with me about your past. Until then, I will avoid seeing or talking to you. My friend (), has agreed to act as an intermediary and will forward any pertinent information about finances, the dogs or the house. I expect that you will continue to pay the bills as usual.
Your affairs and your continued dishonesty have caused me enormous suffering and I cannot stay in contact with you under theses conditions. This is not to punish you, it is to protect my feelings for you and our chances at reconciliation. If we continue as we are now, there will be nothing left.
I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you in this way. You must know about the suffering I have endured because of your dishonesty, and I simply cannot be with you any longer, knowing that you are not telling me the truth. I still love you, but I cannot see you under these conditions.
I want us to be able to rebuild our marriage someday. I want us to be able to meet each other's emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We need to build a new lifestyle in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then, there will never again be a reason for us to separate.
More than anything, I want to make our marriage together stronger and closer than we ever thought possible. With all of my heart, I want to build a new marriage with you. One in which we both feel loved, safe, cherished and honored. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And, I want you as my best friend.
I loved you when we married and I continue to love you right up to this day. I just cannot be with you or help you while you as long as you are being dishonest. I want to grow old with you. I loved you more than life itself while we were together. You were my soulmate.
When you find yourself willing to truly and fully commit to our marriage, willing to work on a plan for our recovery, I will be ready and willing to discuss our future.
With my love, BW
*This is what I have so far... Might need a few adjustments, but I like it so far!
I cut out 2 paragraphs because the letter is too long and you were really saying the same thing. If there is too much sentimentality he gets the impression that his crimes have not been that serious. There needs to be a balance between the love you are expressing and the harder stuff.
I apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped to make your affairs possible. I am willing to avoid the mistakes I've made in the past and create a new life for the both of us that meet your needs.
But, I cannot do that until you are completely honest with me about your past. Until then, I will avoid seeing or talking to you. My friend (), has agreed to act as an intermediary and will forward any pertinent information about finances, the dogs or the house. I expect that you will continue to pay the bills as usual.
Your affairs and your continued dishonesty have caused me enormous suffering and I cannot stay in contact with you under theses conditions. This is not to punish you, it is to protect my feelings for you and our chances at reconciliation. If we continue as we are now, there will be nothing left.
I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you in this way. You must know about the suffering I have endured because of your dishonesty, and I simply cannot be with you any longer, knowing that you are not telling me the truth. I still love you, but I cannot see you under these conditions.
I want us to be able to rebuild our marriage someday. I want us to be able to meet each other's emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We need to build a new lifestyle in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then, there will never again be a reason for us to separate.
More than anything, I want to make our marriage together stronger and closer than we ever thought possible. With all of my heart, I want to build a new marriage with you. One in which we both feel loved, safe, cherished and honored. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And, I want you as my best friend.
I loved you when we married and I continue to love you right up to this day. I just cannot be with you or help you while you as long as you are being dishonest. I want to grow old with you. I loved you more than life itself while we were together. You were my soulmate.
When you find yourself willing to truly and fully commit to our marriage, willing to work on a plan for our recovery, I will be ready and willing to discuss our future.
With my love, BW
*This is what I have so far... Might need a few adjustments, but I like it so far!
I cut out 2 paragraphs because the letter is too long and you were really saying the same thing. If there is too much sentimentality he gets the impression that his crimes have not been that serious. There needs to be a balance between the love you are expressing and the harder stuff.
Thank you ML! What do you think about my addendum? Anything I should add? What about stating him not being allowed to see the dogs?
starfish, the addendum is for complicated issues that involve child visitation, not for a detailed list of EPs. EPs comes later when you are discussing reconciliation. You want to leave him with the most pleasant of thoughts when you go dark, so only use the Plan B letter.
I would not even mention the dogs. If he brings up the dogs to the IM, maybe some day you can take the dogs to his parents for the weekend and he can see them there.
I didnt even use an addendum as we dont have children. The main body of the letter addressed my main condition (NC) just as yours addresses your main condition (lies) and I mentioned the IMs address in the main letter too.
My IM can deal with full EPs, or I will, once he agrees to NC (and assuming I'm still interested).
If I was to do it again, though, I'd put a bit more about finances in the addendum. I.e.: 'Pay x amount in mortgage account each month' etc. My IM handled these arrangements just fine, but using an IM cuts down on the interactions. You want to use the IM as little as possible, because even those indirect contacts trigger you a little.
starfish, the addendum is for complicated issues that involve child visitation, not for a detailed list of EPs. EPs comes later when you are discussing reconciliation. You want to leave him with the most pleasant of thoughts when you go dark, so only use the Plan B letter.
I would not even mention the dogs. If he brings up the dogs to the IM, maybe some day you can take the dogs to his parents for the weekend and he can see them there.
I didnt even use an addendum as we dont have children. The main body of the letter addressed my main condition (NC) just as yours addresses your main condition (lies) and I mentioned the IMs address in the main letter too.
My IM can deal with full EPs, or I will, once he agrees to NC (and assuming I'm still interested).
If I was to do it again, though, I'd put a bit more about finances in the addendum. I.e.: 'Pay x amount in mortgage account each month' etc. My IM handled these arrangements just fine, but using an IM cuts down on the interactions. You want to use the IM as little as possible, because even those indirect contacts trigger you a little.
I apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped to make your affairs possible. I am willing to avoid the mistakes I've made in the past and create a new life for the both of us that meet your needs.
But, I cannot do that until you are completely honest with me about your past. Until then, I will avoid seeing or talking to you. My friend (), has agreed to act as an intermediary and will forward any pertinent information about finances, the dogs or the house. I expect that you will continue to pay the bills as usual.
Your affairs and your continued dishonesty have caused me enormous suffering and I cannot stay in contact with you under theses conditions. ThUis is not to punish you, it is to protect my feelings for you and our chances at reconciliation. If we continue as we are now, there will be nothing left.
I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you in this way. You must know about the suffering I have endured because of your dishonesty, and I simply cannot be with you any longer, knowing that you are not telling me the truth. I still love you, but I cannot see you under these conditions.
I want us to be able to rebuild our marriage someday. I want us to be able to meet each other's emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We need to build a new lifestyle in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then, there will never again be a reason for us to separate.
More than anything, I want to make our marriage together stronger and closer than we ever thought possible. With all of my heart, I want to build a new marriage with you. One in which we both feel loved, safe, cherished and honored. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And, I want you as my best friend.
I loved you when we married and I continue to love you right up to this day. I just cannot be with you or help you while you as long as you are being dishonest. I want to grow old with you. I loved you more than life itself while we were together. You were my soulmate.
When you find yourself willing to truly and fully commit to our marriage, willing to work on a plan for our recovery, I will be ready and willing to discuss our future.
With my love, BW
*This is what I have so far... Might need a few adjustments, but I like it so far!
I cut out 2 paragraphs because the letter is too long and you were really saying the same thing. If there is too much sentimentality he gets the impression that his crimes have not been that serious. There needs to be a balance between the love you are expressing and the harder stuff.
Thank you ML! What do you think about my addendum? Anything I should add? What about stating him not being allowed to see the dogs?
Also, what order should I do everything?
Should I also take out the part about him passing a polygraph in my plan B letter?
[ Should I also take out the part about him passing a polygraph in my plan B letter?
No, I would leave that in there. That is a KEY condition with him so he needs to read that word every time he reads that letter, IMO.
Ok, thank you! So, once I amend the letter. I need to change the locks, pack up his personal belongings and notify him of the IM (Indiegirl)... Hope she is still interested. I sent her an email, but haven't heard back from her. Anything I'm leaving out? What order should I do it? Locks first obviously..
Tonight will be our last MC appt. WH is coming by before the appt. to see the dogs (and me I assume) and then we will drive separately to our MC appt. My psychologist said to make it a wrap-up session and only discuss the poly results and that he is still lying and where do we go from here?
Tonight will be our last MC appt. WH is coming by before the appt. to see the dogs (and me I assume) and then we will drive separately to our MC appt. My psychologist said to make it a wrap-up session and only discuss the poly results and that he is still lying and where do we go from here?
I have no doubt that your husband will try and "negotiate" anything other than coming clean and passing a polygraph. ["have faith in me!!" "I am one of the 5%!"] That would be futile to sit there for an hour listening to more fogbabble, which is more likely to cause you to EXPLODE just before you go into Plan B. And you want to leave the best taste possible before you go into plan B. A session of fogbabble and angry outbursts would be a terrible way to end Plan A!
If he starts in with the fogbabble, I would politely state your conditions again, stand up, hand him the letter and then leave and go home. There is no reason for you to stay if he does that. You can't reason with a falling down drunk. If you leave, the counselor can spend that time expressing to him that he will lose you if he doesn't come clean.
Tonight will be our last MC appt. WH is coming by before the appt. to see the dogs (and me I assume) and then we will drive separately to our MC appt. My psychologist said to make it a wrap-up session and only discuss the poly results and that he is still lying and where do we go from here?
I have no doubt that your husband will try and "negotiate" anything other than coming clean and passing a polygraph. ["have faith in me!!" "I am one of the 5%!"] That would be futile to sit there for an hour listening to more fogbabble, which is more likely to cause you to EXPLODE just before you go into Plan B. And you want to leave the best taste possible before you go into plan B. A session of fogbabble and angry outbursts would be a terrible way to end Plan A!
If he starts in with the fogbabble, I would politely state your conditions again, stand up, hand him the letter and then leave and go home. There is no reason for you to stay if he does that. You can't reason with a falling down drunk. If you leave, the counselor can spend that time expressing to him that he will lose you if he doesn't come clean.
I can't hand him the letter tonight, because it's not finished and I don't have Indigirls's name to include in my letter as our IM. I'm not sure what to do about that... I haven't heard back from her. Maybe I can find another IM here? I really want to get Plan B rolling, but I need an IM.
I would not tell MC about Plan B. I would not go into it until you have everything in order.
If you go to MC, and I don't think I would myself in the situation.....be cool headed and listen to everything said but do not lovebust nor add any blah,blah,blah to the stew.
Listen and simply tell WH if asked for input, in counselor's presence "I love you, you know that. I need a completely honest and open, monogamous marriage."
If he says he is being honest respond "The polygraph does not back you up on that."
Really nothing else no matter what he or MC bring up.
I, in essence don't think it is realistic that you can remain calm and not add fuel the messy situation going BUT if you go prepare yourself to be above it all.
My recommendations as someone following your thread are
1. Don't go to Plan B until completely prepared 2. Don't go to the MC appointment....yet if you do.......be there as a passively resistent person who adds no fuel to the fire. Preferably, do not attend.
I would not tell MC about Plan B. I would not go into it until you have everything in order.
If you go to MC, and I don't think I would myself in the situation.....be cool headed and listen to everything said but do not lovebust nor add any blah,blah,blah to the stew.
Listen and simply tell WH if asked for input, in counselor's presence "I love you, you know that. I need a completely honest and open, monogamous marriage."
If he says he is being honest respond "The polygraph does not back you up on that."
Really nothing else no matter what he or MC bring up.
I, in essence don't think it is realistic that you can remain calm and not add fuel the messy situation going BUT if you go prepare yourself to be above it all.
My recommendations as someone following your thread are
1. Don't go to Plan B until completely prepared 2. Don't go to the MC appointment....yet if you do.......be there as a passively resistent person who adds no fuel to the fire. Preferably, do not attend.
I am going to go, but it's only because I want to show her the polygraph results and that I cannot go anywhere from here without complete honesty. I will do my best to remain calm, take deep breaths and not love bust. I will not discuss Plan B. WH will find out when I give him the letter. I still need to change the locks, pack his personal belongings and confirm an IM. I'm stuck right now...
If it were me, I would be saying something like: "If you aren't going to come clean, there is no reason to go to counseling"
Sorry to keep hammering you about the counseling, but I believe this may be possibly? part of the reason that your WH hasn't come clean - he sees loopholes where he may be able to continue to gaslight you and the counselors so he doesn't realize how serious you are. Maybe it wouldn't make a difference but still, I think it sends a mixed message...
Tonight will be our last MC appt. WH is coming by before the appt. to see the dogs (and me I assume) and then we will drive separately to our MC appt. My psychologist said to make it a wrap-up session and only discuss the poly results and that he is still lying and where do we go from here?
I have no doubt that your husband will try and "negotiate" anything other than coming clean and passing a polygraph. ["have faith in me!!" "I am one of the 5%!"] That would be futile to sit there for an hour listening to more fogbabble, which is more likely to cause you to EXPLODE just before you go into Plan B. And you want to leave the best taste possible before you go into plan B. A session of fogbabble and angry outbursts would be a terrible way to end Plan A!
If he starts in with the fogbabble, I would politely state your conditions again, stand up, hand him the letter and then leave and go home. There is no reason for you to stay if he does that. You can't reason with a falling down drunk. If you leave, the counselor can spend that time expressing to him that he will lose you if he doesn't come clean.
I can't hand him the letter tonight, because it's not finished and I don't have Indigirls's name to include in my letter as our IM. I'm not sure what to do about that... I haven't heard back from her. Maybe I can find another IM here? I really want to get Plan B rolling, but I need an IM.
Also, I do not have the locks changed yet.
I haven't seen your email! Im still happy to. Can you ask the mods to send your addy to me again as I haven't seen that either.
Tonight will be our last MC appt. WH is coming by before the appt. to see the dogs (and me I assume) and then we will drive separately to our MC appt. My psychologist said to make it a wrap-up session and only discuss the poly results and that he is still lying and where do we go from here?
I have no doubt that your husband will try and "negotiate" anything other than coming clean and passing a polygraph. ["have faith in me!!" "I am one of the 5%!"] That would be futile to sit there for an hour listening to more fogbabble, which is more likely to cause you to EXPLODE just before you go into Plan B. And you want to leave the best taste possible before you go into plan B. A session of fogbabble and angry outbursts would be a terrible way to end Plan A!
If he starts in with the fogbabble, I would politely state your conditions again, stand up, hand him the letter and then leave and go home. There is no reason for you to stay if he does that. You can't reason with a falling down drunk. If you leave, the counselor can spend that time expressing to him that he will lose you if he doesn't come clean.
I can't hand him the letter tonight, because it's not finished and I don't have Indigirls's name to include in my letter as our IM. I'm not sure what to do about that... I haven't heard back from her. Maybe I can find another IM here? I really want to get Plan B rolling, but I need an IM.
Also, I do not have the locks changed yet.
I haven't seen your email! Im still happy to. Can you ask the mods to send your addy to me again as I haven't seen that either.
Yes, I just replied all to the email from the mod. Hopefully you will have my email soon. I'll try to resend to you. Could it have gone into your junk mail?
The MC session tonight is just a wrap-up session per my psychologist. I will not stay if he starts saying that he has told me everything... I will just leave. I'm only doing what my psychologist told me to do to wrap up MC, because she agrees MC is useless to us while he is lying. I want to show the MC the polygraph results, so she can see for herself that he was lying to her too. I might just leave after that, but I will not LB!
That would be futile to sit there for an hour listening to more fogbabble, which is more likely to cause you to EXPLODE just before you go into Plan B. And you want to leave the best taste possible before you go into plan B. A session of fogbabble and angry outbursts would be a terrible way to end Plan A! If he starts in with the fogbabble, I would politely state your conditions again, stand up, hand him the letter and then leave and go home.
Even if you can't do the letter yet, you can still state your conditions and leave.
Anything but sitting there till you love bust
I agree with Mel about leaving the 'best taste' possible too. Wouldn't it be more productive to go out for coffee or dinner? If you're up to it. Flirt like crazy and change the subject whenever he talks relationship talk. Then at the end of the night say you hope he does the right thing soon so you can have 'more times like these'
I was advised to have a flirty coffee date with mine after he refused NC. However I'm not as familiar with this type of serial cheat like Susie and Mel. If he's too doggedly persistent in badgering you, maybe a flirty 'remember when' email as your carrot before you plan B.
I am going to go, but it's only because I want to show her the polygraph results and that I cannot go anywhere from here without complete honesty. I will do my best to remain calm, take deep breaths and not love bust. I will not discuss Plan B. WH will find out when I give him the letter. I still need to change the locks, pack his personal belongings and confirm an IM. I'm stuck right now...
Why are you going? Because the MC may only take his side and validate his position that you should "have faith" in him. Then he is less likely to EVER give you the truth.
That would be futile to sit there for an hour listening to more fogbabble, which is more likely to cause you to EXPLODE just before you go into Plan B. And you want to leave the best taste possible before you go into plan B. A session of fogbabble and angry outbursts would be a terrible way to end Plan A! If he starts in with the fogbabble, I would politely state your conditions again, stand up, hand him the letter and then leave and go home.
Even if you can't do the letter yet, you can still state your conditions and leave.
Anything but sitting there till you love bust
I agree with Mel about leaving the 'best taste' possible too. Wouldn't it be more productive to go out for coffee or dinner? If you're up to it. Flirt like crazy and change the subject whenever he talks relationship talk. Then at the end of the night say you hope he does the right thing soon so you can have 'more times like these'
I was advised to have a flirty coffee date with mine after he refused NC. However I'm not as familiar with this type of serial cheat like Susie and Mel. If he's too doggedly persistent in badgering you, maybe a flirty 'remember when' email as your carrot before you plan B.
I think it's going to be too hard to have coffee or dinner with him and not discuss anything. I think I'll be more liable to LB if I go out with him, because I'm going to want to shake him!
Wrap up appointments are necessary. Showing the results isn't either.
Your therapist has the best of intentions of suggesting you go but it isn't logical in this situation and may cause additional barriers to the ones you are already dealing with......(my 2 cents....others can add theirs)
My plan is to look good tonight, speak kindly, laugh, etc. I'll then state the facts and if he starts spewing more lies, I'll just state that I cannot stay in a marriage while he is still lying and walk out gracefully. What do you think?
Also, he is going to come by and see the dogs before our appointment, so I can do my best to act happy, etc. Should I say anything in particular?
The MC session tonight is just a wrap-up session per my psychologist. I will not stay if he starts saying that he has told me everything... I will just leave. I'm only doing what my psychologist told me to do to wrap up MC, because she agrees MC is useless to us while he is lying. I want to show the MC the polygraph results, so she can see for herself that he was lying to her too. I might just leave after that, but I will not LB!
So you are taking the argument into the MC's office and he will sit there and insist that he is being truthful. Then your gullible MC will take his side and they will pile on until you explode and leave. Then you are stuck with a big fight as the last thing he remembers before you go dark.
It is not just that the MC is useless while he is lying, the MC is useless because she cannot discern a lie. This MC did not even support the polygraph in the first place.
Wrap up appointments are necessary. Showing the results isn't either.
Your therapist has the best of intentions of suggesting you go but it isn't logical in this situation and may cause additional barriers to the ones you are already dealing with......(my 2 cents....others can add theirs)
I completely understand what you are saying, but I cancelled my last appt. less than an hour before the appt. I have only 3 hrs. before this appt. I spoke with the MC last week and she knows he has been lying, so I'll let her deal with him if it becomes too much. She did say that she would talk to him about how we can't proceed until he is honest.
Starfish: just catching up with your post. I saw your request for help with the addendum, but as it was pointed to you, the adddendum usually deals with practical kids/finance stuff. If you do not have these issues, no need for one.
How should I respond to his response to his last text?
He just sent me another text:
I'm not forcing you to you WS.� If you don't want to, then you can call Dr. ? and cancel, just let me know.� I just thought we both wanted to work on our marriage, but if I'm mistaken on that then just tell me.
[quote=reading] She did say that she would talk to him about how we can't proceed until he is honest.
That's a bit too fluffy for my liking. She does sound gullible and not hard nosed enough to call him a liar and back you up well enough.
If you couldn't manage a coffee date without lovebusting, then I don't see this MC appt going well.
I'd send a loving text/email about how you are really looking forward to rebuilding your marriage when he makes the right decision. Say you had hoped hed be more ready to do this by now but tonight is clearly too soon for him. Maybe throw some needs meeting in there or a nice memory as carrot, too.
say- I do want to work on our marriage honey. and what i would like is xxxxx (your standard email that you have sent about being honest....)
if he is coming to see the dogs before why not in you best cutest outfit and make up..... say "you know i am sorry i will be unable to make the appointment with you tonight, but she is expecting you. if you would like to have coffee after i am free" and wink.
I dont get why your IC thinks your need a wrap-up with an MC. I think you are headed for a meeting that will leave you more confused and angry and your H with another day off. "Look star i did what you wanted, i went to MC with you...." its just a bad session waiting to happen on all sides.
Definitely consider suggesting a dog walk with him instead or stargazing and trying to do something enjoyable.
You could say "Let's do something fun instead."
You sort of seem sure of Plan B.....so have a bit of fun/enjoyment and not too much relationship talk as you prepare to go into your place of protection and self discovery (plan B).
I just told him if he is not ready to be honest, then I did not want to waste a precious hour of my time and we could take the dogs for a walk instead.
He came by to see the dogs and I asked him if he was ready to be honest. He said he just started his therapy (IC). I politely told him that he still has the ultimate choice if he is going to be honest or not. He said he would also like to take the dogs for a walk and wasn't sure... Hmmmmmmm ..... Why? Because you are still lying??? lol....
Ended up going to counseling session. MC told him what I needed. He is still in denial. We hugged and left, then he called me to grab a bite to eat. Waiting for him at the restaurant now...
During MC he did say that he did wonder sometimes where he and OW#1 might be if she hadn't of moved out of state 10+ years ago. This was a new truth.
At dinner tonight, I think I did a spectacular Plan A exit!!! He couldn't keep his eyes off me and told me he loved me and missed me so much. I told him that I was looking forward to spending more nights with him like this...
Starfish is our Katniss Everdeen. Ever so self-doubtful, yet has tremendous inner strength and delivers in the clutch. Nice job, Star. From this newbie's perspective, you've done an artful job so far in your transition to Plan B.
Starfish is our Katniss Everdeen. Ever so self-doubtful, yet has tremendous inner strength and delivers in the clutch. Nice job, Star. From this newbie's perspective, you've done an artful job so far in your transition to Plan B.
Agree, she has done very well. She's fought against the MB concepts a couple of times, but I guess it's human nature to do so. They are very much counter intuitive at times, but dead on the money all the time. And she's realizing this. Quite refreshing to guide someone (not that I've guided her on this) to do the right thing and actually see them do it compared to fighting someone to do the right thing to save their marriage and have them fight against it.
She's a CHAMP!!
But, Star, you need to listen to all the PB vets here (indie and Scotty) about going Plan B. You working in such close proximity to your WH will not turn out good. There is no sense in even thinking about going to PB until you can insure, to the best of your abilities, that NC can be attained. Sure PB can be broken in many ways when you are not working together, and you can shut them down one by one. But as long as you are working together he has way too many ops to break PB. What's to stop him from just going to your car after work and just wait for you to show up? Absolutely nothing...and you can bet he will.
PB is useless with these kinds of opportunities. Before you go PB, you have got to figure out a way to tighten this up.
Starfish is our Katniss Everdeen. Ever so self-doubtful, yet has tremendous inner strength and delivers in the clutch. Nice job, Star. From this newbie's perspective, you've done an artful job so far in your transition to Plan B.
Thank you!!!! I'm trying... Crying inside, but didn't let it show! Talked about the fun I had today and plans for tomorrow... everything that he is missing! And, for the first time, he was the only one that cried in MC tonight. After he told a few new minor truths, our MC told him that this shows he is still withholding information. He said there is no way in hell he will do another polygraph! We will see...
Starfish is our Katniss Everdeen. Ever so self-doubtful, yet has tremendous inner strength and delivers in the clutch. Nice job, Star. From this newbie's perspective, you've done an artful job so far in your transition to Plan B.
Thank you!!!! I'm trying... Crying inside, but didn't let it show! Talked about the fun I had today and plans for tomorrow... everything that he is missing! And, for the first time, he was the only one that cried in MC tonight. After he told a few new minor truths, our MC told him that this shows he is still withholding information. He said there is no way in hell he will do another polygraph! We will see...
Of course he's saying that about the poly right now. When he first agreed to do it, I was thinking maybe he was telling the truth. But after.....
He arrogantly strolled into that poly thinking he was smart enough to fool it.
When he divulged new info in MC tonight, hd said, "I'm not saying that I didn't lean on OW#1, when I was feeling down, etc. and I'm not saying that I didn't think about what could have been had she not moved out of state 10+ years ago, etc.".
I think the "I'm not saying.. " had a lot if weight. I don't believe that he felt he received closure on the relationship. I could be wrong, but it seems like this to me.
Poor guy, I want to say goodbye to my cocaine. Let's hug and kiss, spend these last minutes together. Maybe I take you one last time. Sniff.. Oh right, closure. Bye! See your next time.
This closure thing is one of the nuttiest thing I have seen.
Anxiety again this morning... He changed the password on my tracking device... Arrrrgh! He wants to come by after work to mow, edge the yard. I have a hair appt at 3pm, so hoping I can make it back in time.
Looks like we might be selling our boat this weekend!!! He took the paperwork with him last night, so hopefully it's a sure deal!!!
I can finish up my letter today. Hopefully I can work on the other items tomorrow and get his letter to him by Sunday/Monday.
Starfish is our Katniss Everdeen. Ever so self-doubtful, yet has tremendous inner strength and delivers in the clutch. Nice job, Star. From this newbie's perspective, you've done an artful job so far in your transition to Plan B.
Oh, forgot to mention that he said he was thinking about moving in with his friend (single/bachelor/playboy) that lives in a gated condo development that is close to the bar that he is hanging out at. He is crazy right now!!! I'm thinking I will call my FIL today and let him know, because I hope he can sway him away from that decision. He seems to have gone off the deep end! I don't even know him anymore...
I'm thinking I will call my FIL today and let him know, because I hope he can sway him away from that decision. He seems to have gone off the deep end! I don't even know him anymore...
I should explain. You don't want your fingerprints on WH's decision of where to live. If you try to 'sway' and are successful, then it's your fault he missed a chance to live in that 'cool' place. If you fail to sway, and he moves in, you're still in the wrong for trying to interfere with his 'happiness'.
He's an idiot right now. Leave no fingerprints on this decision of his. If you WANT to, you could discuss it with him in a matter-of-fact sort of way. By that I mean, asking a lot of questions without rendering an opinion. But, honestly, I'd steer clear. Plan A.
Oh, forgot to mention that he said he was thinking about moving in with his friend (single/bachelor/playboy) that lives in a gated condo development that is close to the bar that he is hanging out at. He is crazy right now!!! I'm thinking I will call my FIL today and let him know, because I hope he can sway him away from that decision. He seems to have gone off the deep end! I don't even know him anymore...
Ooooh he's a crafty one your wayward husband.
Cool your panic stations, turn off the red alert and ask yourself: Why is he so keen to tell you this?
It's the usual 'How much do you care about what I do?' bluff that all waywards give the BS.
He's saying, 'Unless you take me back right now without terms, I'll be a swinging bachelor in a couple of weeks. Jealous?'
Your response to this should be: 'Unless you meet my terms, yes you will end up becoming a saddo aging pick up merchant.' But say it in nicer terms. Actually just ignore him. Silence is a powerful response to threats and nonsense.
At dinner tonight, I think I did a spectacular Plan A exit!!! He couldn't keep his eyes off me and told me he loved me and missed me so much. I told him that I was looking forward to spending more nights with him like this...
The sooner the wayward hits rock bottom in Plan B, the better. Moving in with his toxic buddy is probably the best way ever to hit rock bottom and quickly, too.
The sooner the wayward hits rock bottom in Plan B, the better. Moving in with his toxic buddy is probably the best way ever to hit rock bottom and quickly, too.
I agree... as painful as it is. Going to get my hair done now and then meeting him at the house, so he can mow the yard.
Indie: in Plan B, is the WH notified that if it is discovered he has had any other affairs during the separation, that there will be nothing left? I want to make sure he knows that this is not a separation from the marriage and he is not to act single.
Your Plan B letter tells him you want to recover the marriage someday.....
you can not control if he dates others in Plan B.
You will need to turn away from what he is doing and turn toward your own actions into the future.
You will need to release him.
I understand that I can't control him, but I'm not supposed to date in Plan B and no intentions of doing so. He could do things anyway and I guess if he does, then that is his decision and he will lose me forever. I just feel that the same principles should be applied to the both of us.
Indie: in Plan B, is the WH notified that if it is discovered he has had any other affairs during the separation, that there will be nothing left? I want to make sure he knows that this is not a separation from the marriage and he is not to act single.
No. I know waywards act stupid, but they're not. It will be clear that your letter is insisting on marriage, and a faitful one to move forward. You dont need to spell it out for him.
You certainly dont have to spell out how worried his little threat has made you!
Star, you're not supposed to date UNTIL AND UNLESS you get a D. Dating while married is adultery, and we don't want you becoming a wayward spouse. Not because of HIM, because of the affects it has on YOU.
You can't control what your WH can and can not do in PLan B.
You don't need to tell him not to "date"(read continued adultery). That is HIS choice. HE chooses how to react to your PBL. If that means that he goes out and boinks some skankerella, that's on HIM.
You don't need to decide all of the situations that can arise from PBL. What you do is decide what it would take to allow him back into your inner circle. What he would need to do. What you will and won't accept.
Indie: in Plan B, is the WH notified that if it is discovered he has had any other affairs during the separation, that there will be nothing left? I want to make sure he knows that this is not a separation from the marriage and he is not to act single.
I understand where you are going with this, SF...
He is wayward though. Even if you threaten him with that, I doubt it would make a difference. He would just make sure to hide it very well.
Star, you're not supposed to date UNTIL AND UNLESS you get a D. Dating while married is adultery, and we don't want you becoming a wayward spouse. Not because of HIM, because of the affects it has on YOU.
You can't control what your WH can and can not do in PLan B.
You don't need to tell him not to "date"(read continued adultery). That is HIS choice. HE chooses how to react to your PBL. If that means that he goes out and boinks some skankerella, that's on HIM.
You don't need to decide all of the situations that can arise from PBL. What you do is decide what it would take to allow him back into your inner circle. What he would need to do. What you will and won't accept.
Yes, I understand and was mentioning it. I have no desire to betray my vows. I have high values and morals. I only have control of myself right now.
Atta girl. There will be days when that's all you'll have but its plenty. Its so important. Those who cling to it survive, while waywards just spiral until they hit the rocks. You have shown that you're strong enough. Being sickened about what he may do in Plan B is so normal, but you have to let go. Told you it would be tough.
Had my IC session this morning and took her advice on having a conversation with WH. I was very calm and collected, spoke very sweet. I told him that I know he is not the greatest communicator. I asked if he knew why he felt he couldn't share with me about particular stressful situations. Re: Infertility, he said that he was very hurt by it too and knew that I was already in so much pain, so he didn't want to add to my pain and he just kept his feelings bottled up inside.
I then asked him, "Why are you feeling that you have to lie to me? Is it because of the pain, shame and guilt you are feeling? Are you fearful that I'm going to run and never want you again if you tell me more?" This is where he began to break down in tears! He did agree that he was scared of losing me if I knew more and admitted that there was more of an emotional attachment with OW#1 than he let on before. He is still insisting that he didn't have any sexual contact with her and told me everything about OW#2. He said that he was going to start over and write down everything again, everything that he could think of that he hadn't told me before and said I DID deserve the truth. We will see... I did tell him again that I needed him to be honest and pour everything out and he would feel so much better for doing so. I told him that it feels so good to tell the truth and once he starts making it a habit, it would be so easy.
He invited me on the boat tomorrow (one last cruise before it sells on Sunday). At first, I declined, but then talked to my mom and she thought it would be good if I went, so his last happy memory on the boat would be with me. I agreed and called him back and he was very happy that I decided to go.
On a funny note... He mowed the yard and took a quick rinse while he was here. He said he missed all of the nice smelling soaps, etc. in our shower. He picked up a bottle of his scented soap to take with him and his special shampoo, etc. for his receding hairline...lol! I asked him if he had plans to start growing some more hair while he was away. He said, "Well, I bought it, I might as well use it.". I said, "Well, you haven't used it in the past two weeks, but who knows, maybe someday you'll come back as a BRAND NEW MAN!". He said, "I sure hope so WS!". lol.... Sorry, I couldn't help myself!!!!
he said that he was very hurt by it too and knew that I was already in so much pain, so he didn't want to add to my pain
Just be aware that 'I don't want to worry you' is the liars motto, and most disturbingly it rests on two lies that the liar tells to himself first. I lost count of the number of times my WH used this one so he could make independent decisions without consulting me first. The two lies the motto rests on are:
1) My spouse is not mature enough/intelligient enough to handle the truth. 2)I will pretend the secrecy is to protect her even tho its really to give me the freedom to do what I want.
Originally Posted by starfish75
This is where he began to break down in tears! He did agree that he was scared of losing me if I knew more and admitted that there was more of an emotional attachment with OW#1 than he let on before.
The tears are genuine. He is addicted to having BOTH you and the other connections with women. He is weeping for the end of the glory days because he can't see it continuing 'if you knew more'. I know this sounds sick, but its a true addiction and it often makes the addict very miserable and unhappy because they want the impossible.
The rest of your post is a sterling Plan A as per usual. Your mother is clearly a war general herself! Very wise lady.
He invited me on the boat tomorrow (one last cruise before it sells on Sunday). At first, I declined, but then talked to my mom and she thought it would be good if I went, so his last happy memory on the boat would be with me.
This is tremendous Plan Aing IF you can withstand the trigger of the boat. I think you're super strong and can pull that off, but just be aware that you will be triggered and in a slightly weaker mood during it.
Art of War says 'when weak appear strong' so do your best acting job. Also don't allow any relationship talk as you won't be on the soundest ground for that. Prepare a script before you go, and stick to it. Fluffy stuff. ENs, flirting, etc
Ok, getting a little emotional at dinner... God, I miss him so much!!!! He's not home right now and I want to be with him so bad.... This is sooooo hard!!!! I wish I could ask him to come home with me tonight.... Is it ok? I'm feeling so vulnerable right now and need him!
I'm feeling that I'm very vulnerable right now and we could both meet a S EM tonight. He told me that he wrote some more truths for me tonight...and is planning on emailing it to me tonight or tomorrow.
Is that how he phrased it? If so he's not very subtle. The truth isn't parcelled out piecemeal, its just the one big whole chunk. The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
Originally Posted by starfish75
I'm feeling that I'm very vulnerable right now and we could both meet a S EM tonight.
Do you mean meet the need for sexual fulfilment? You should do as part of your Plan A,but its tricky, because waywards are not careful about safe sex and even if he's been screened therere things that take a while to show.
Some people meet the need wearing condoms, others get them all hot and bothered and leave with a 'to be continued once you're ready to work on the marriage' I just stuck to prancing about in lingerie and talking about how much sex we could be having if hed done NC.
Is that how he phrased it? If so he's not very subtle. The truth isn't parcelled out piecemeal, its just the one big whole chunk. The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
Originally Posted by starfish75
I'm feeling that I'm very vulnerable right now and we could both meet a S EM tonight.
Do you mean meet the need for sexual fulfilment? You should do as part of your Plan A,but its tricky, because waywards are not careful about safe sex and even if he's been screened therere things that take a while to show.
Some people meet the need wearing condoms, others get them all hot and bothered and leave with a 'to be continued once you're ready to work on the marriage' I just stuck to prancing about in lingerie and talking about how much sex we could be having if hed done NC.
No, he didn't word it that exact way, but told me that he had something to send me. I'm feeling that I need a S EM need met right now... This is so hard!!!
He did say he was glad to see me last night. He said that he misses me, everything about me. He also said he had a fear that the longer he was gone, that he felt he might get used to not being around me and it freaked him out. Sounds like a scare tactic? I told him that he could change that and he knows what he needs to do. He said he would be sending me a new email this morning with more info. I asked him if it was everything and he said its a start and he is starting over. I have a feeling that it's not going to be what I'm looking for...
Why is it taking so damn long for him to just get it all out???
I want to let you know that I have not been completely honest about OW#1 over the last two years. �The day we went to lunch that you know about, that started all this, OW#1 did tell me as I was getting in my truck that she loved me. �I responded with I love you too, and you�ll get through this. �Not sure why I told her I loved her, but she was very emotional, and that was how I responded. �I do care about her, because we had a good, but strange relationship for 3 years. When she came back into the picture it did stir up old memories. �I contacted her a lot more frequently than I even realized during the last 2 years. �I was shocked on how often it actually was. �You and I were starting to go through some rough times as OW#1 started to enter the picture again. �We were not communicating well, and we had our fertility issues going on as well. �You would go outside with wine and smokes, and do research, get on blogs, face book, whatever it was, and I�d just do my thing inside or go to our neighbors house or whatever. �We were not ourselves, and for some reason I could not communicate with you. �I think I was afraid of making the issues you already had worse, but I�m not sure why you didn�t communicate with me. So as OW#1 was leaning on me, I started to lean on her as well. �She was someone I could at least talk too. �Not necessarily about problems, but just talk, communicate, something I couldn�t do with you. As time went on I did have thoughts about if I had married the right person. �If OW#1 had moved to our state 12 years ago, would we have been together. �I even thought about sex with her again, even though that never happened, and we never even talked about stuff like that with each other. �Those thoughts however did cross my mind. �The connection that we had lost over time seemed to be coming back. I knew it was wrong to be doing what I was doing, but I didn�t understand why. �I thought well as long as we keep this a friendly thing then there should be nothing wrong with it, but there was something wrong. �I understand that better now. �Just letting her back in my life brought back old memories and thoughts of affairs. �If she had not come back in my life, or if I had not let her back in, then those thoughts and memories would probably not have ever come up, and I may have been able to maybe communicate with you. �She was a distraction to our marriage. As more time went on and we were doing our Creighton model meetings, and we started to seem to come back together a little more, maybe because of a common goal of a baby and family. I did start to push back on meeting with OW#1, but that did not stop me from being in contact with her. �For some reason I could not completely push her out of my life. �I always had to have at least some way to contact her in case I felt the need to. �I was not happy about writing the letter to OW#1 that night when we sent it to her, but I did feel some sense of relief later on. �You helped me do something that I for some reason could not do on my own, and that was cut ties with OW#1. As long as she was around, I was going to feel the need to be friendly with her. After counseling started, and we started having some really good days, it was evident to me that what I really needed was you, my wife in my life. �We had both drifted pretty far apart from each other, and it was nice to have you back in close again. �Granted during counseling we had rough days as well, but the good days were some of the best I�ve had with you in several years. Overall I have come to terms about cutting ties with OW#1. �I have learned a lot about what is right and what is wrong in a marriage. �Should I have known these before, yes, but sometimes it takes things like this to make people understand the poison that comes from letting others cross the boundaries of a marriage. �I now realize how much poison OW#1 was to us. �I have also realized that letting any female cross boundaries is a recipe for disaster. BW, I have seen us over the last couple months grow close again on days. �Close like we were when we were dating. �Where we just loved being around each other. �When we couldn�t keep our hands off each other. �I feel that we can be that couple again, and not just for a short period of time, but for the rest of our lives.
The fog script he gave you is just more smoke and mirrors to persuade you to drop the polygraph.
First he says 'If I admit to inappropriate sexual behaviour, will you drop the poly?'
Then he says 'If I admit to inappropriate emotional boundaries, will you drop the poly?'
Forgive me if I am misremembering, but I don't see any new info that would explain his failing the poly? I thought he had already admitted inappropriate feelings for his ex? Is he trying to repackage up his old story as new to see if you are buying today?
I think he's stepping up his campaign to get you to cave.
If you can handle the boat, go but I think you'd find it near impossible to love bust while he's pressuring you to believe such obvious lies.
Why not email back that you hope he sees fit to give you the whole truth and pass a polygraph before its too late. Be a broken record, say you can handle any revelation but continued lies and trickle truth will end your marriage.
After that go to lunch if you want, but somewhere breezy and casual where you can just get up and leave if he presses you to lovebust. Maybe stick to drinks or coffee.
I'm not caving and he knows it. I told him he needs to come clean sooner than later, if he wants to rebuild our marriage. I told him that I haven't been angry at him once for telling me the truth and he needs to do the right thing!
Why not email back that you hope he sees fit to give you the whole truth and pass a polygraph before its too late. Be a broken record, say you can handle any revelation but continued lies and trickle truth will end your marriage.
I agree with Indiegirl, he still believes he can trickle truth his way out of this.
I'm not caving and he knows it. I told him he needs to come clean sooner than later, if he wants to rebuild our marriage. I told him that I haven't been angry at him once for telling me the truth and he needs to do the right thing!
You haven't been angry in the PAST. But, really starfish, that horse has left the barn. After all of this, it might be too late. He has gone to EXTREMES to avoid telling you the truth. EXTREMES. Even to the point of possibly losing his marriage. His affair with the OW #1 is much more entrenched than he is saying. He is in love with her and there is no way he hasn't been having sex wtih her. The reason he doesn't want to come clean is because he is still protecting her. And possibly other affairs.
So he wants you to believe he kept all of his physical boundaries with OW1 with whom he had an emotional connection --- but somehow dropped all those boundaries for OW2 whom he barely knew?? That makes no logical sense whatsoever.
He keeps testing you - to see if its safe to reveal more.
If you spend the day with him, and these topics come up you will have to respond like a robot. If you allow your emotions and hurt to show, he will retreat and justify more lying. Because he thinks by lying he is protecting you.
There is nothing new in his email - other than the "love you" comment that I seriously think is the tip of the iceberg in terms of their mushiness.
Just be a broken record like indie suggested. Tell him the story doesn't make sense and you can't stay in a marriage where you don't have the truth. Tell him the trickle truth is going to be the death of your marriage and you are reaching the point of no return because of his refusal to be honest.
See, he thinks by throwing you these little crumbs that you will fold and call it good. You need to disabuse him of that notion.
So he wants you to believe he kept all of his physical boundaries with OW1 with whom he had an emotional connection --- but somehow dropped all those boundaries for OW2 whom he barely knew?? That makes no logical sense whatsoever.
Starfish it is hard, I know, but once in Plan B you look back and always wonder if you couldve done a better Plan A. No matter what happens you will know that you fought like a warrior for the truth and showed him EXACTLY what he stood to lose.
If the conversation vears towards relationship talk -- put a time limit on it. 10 minutes. Put an alarm on and tell him that you just want to enjoy the day, but if we need to discuss this here is the rule. 10 minutes and done...
He told me that he can't make up things just to make me happy. He said he is not going to tell me things that didn't happen. He said he doesn't know how else to get me to believe him. I told him once he passes a polygraph.
Great work! They never expect the broken record treatment. They think you'll either cave in or blow up in anger. If you do the latter they decide to choose the OWomen who 'never get mad or expect so much' (well, why would they?)
You've got him well informed now. He knows its either full disclosure or losing the sparky Plan Aer who has been a joy to be around.
When do you begin Plan B? There's realy not much more you can show or display to him in Plan A, you've met every need, stood up for yourelf, kept your cool.. you've done the lot.
He just gave me a foot massage on the boat. Throwing out all the mushy stuff, compliments, etc. just like last time. We took a picture of the two of us during sunset last night and he said he will cherish that picture always and hoped it wouldn't be our last picture together. He insists that he didn't have sex with OW#1, not even kisses. He said he definitely would have had sex with OW#2, but they were interrupted.
Plan B.... very close! Need to change the locks. Can he legally get back in the house if I change the locks or should I file for legal separation? Just trying to dot all my I's and cross my T's.
He hates it that I picked up smoking again and I told him that I dislike lying as much as he dislikes smoking. I told him that if he passes a polygraph, then I would throw my smokes away and never pick one up again and every time I had the urge, I would ask him for sex. He said it sounded like a good time! lol...
but I don't think any more Plan A is going to get this man to stop trickle truthing you.
Keep going in getting your Plan B lined up. Do you have an IM yet? Has the IM training guide been linked for you to give to her yet? If not, we can do that for you.
Hey Susie, I have volunteered as Starfish's IM, she was having trouble getting someone in RL.
Originally Posted by starfish75
I told him that if he passes a polygraph, then I would throw my smokes away and never pick one up again and every time I had the urge, I would ask him for sex. He said it sounded like a good time! lol...
Tell me you're going to help others with their Plan A on here. You're like a Jedi master at it.
Hey Susie, I have volunteered as Starfish's IM, she was having trouble getting someone in RL.
Originally Posted by starfish75
I told him that if he passes a polygraph, then I would throw my smokes away and never pick one up again and every time I had the urge, I would ask him for sex. He said it sounded like a good time! lol...
Tell me you're going to help others with their Plan A on here. You're like a Jedi master at it.
Plan B.... very close! Need to change the locks. Can he legally get back in the house if I change the locks or should I file for legal separation? Just trying to dot all my I's and cross my T's.
Yes, he can, but most won't try it because they don't like to have to get the court order to get back in. He would have to explain to a judge why you did it in the first place. And if he calls the police, which is very unlikely, they are more likely to tell him to hire a lawyer and work it out.
If he does try to fight it, you would want to file for separation and we will give you pointers on how to keep him out.
He hates it that I picked up smoking again and I told him that I dislike lying as much as he dislikes smoking. I told him that if he passes a polygraph, then I would throw my smokes away and never pick one up again and every time I had the urge, I would ask him for sex. He said it sounded like a good time! lol...
Met an EN on our boat today... Yep, I was the last one to have sex with my H before the boat sold! Take that OW#1!!!! Afterwards, I told him that we could have such a beautiful life and he said that we WOULD have a beautiful life together. Yes, but you still have some things to spill WH!!!
It was great!!! Afterwards, on the way back in the boat, I put my arm around him and told him if he stopped lying and came clean, I would quit smoking and we could have a long, beautiful life together. I reminded him to do what our MC said at our last session and he said, "To start over?". I said, "Yes, with the truth... all of it!". He nodded his head. I squeezed him (lovingly) and told him that all of our family, friends, counselors, acquaintances want us to work things out and he needs to do the right thing. He said, "Everyone knows how much we love each other!". I said, "Yes, and you need to do the right thing.". He put his head down and nodded again....
Do you all think he is going to come clean? Is he close? At one point, he started to slow the boat way down while I was telling him the last part and I thought he might just spill the beans, but nope... It didn't happen!
Thank you!!! He said he wouldn't take another lie detector, because he already failed the first one. He is acting like he is doomed...
starfish, you have done a beautiful job setting the stage for Plan B. You have left a great taste in his mouth and told him in a 100 different ways that he has to tell the truth. He is still thinking he might be able to charm his way out of this and continue to hide the truth. Your Plan B will disabuse him of that notion.
I predict when you go into Plan B he will try for a couple of weeks to get through. He will call you directly, maybe stop by and enlist others to "talk some sense into you." The key will be to stay AIR TIGHT DARK no matter what. When you convince him you are dead serious and there will be no contact until and unless he comes clean, I predict he will come clean. But count on him to test it at every turn! If he can get you to relax your boundaries, then he won't have to meet your conditions!
So prepare to stay dark as night. Don't let him get through no matter what. Don't accidentally answer his calls, read his emails, nothing. Each and every time he tries to contact you, forward it to your IM and have her contact him with: "starfish deleted your email and did not read it. If you have any communications, please send it through me. Thank you!"
Another thing I want to prepare you for. When you do get the truth, you may reconsider your future with him. That is your option. You have a get out of jail free card with adultery. Just keep that in mind and keep your options open.
You have done a great job, my friend, and I hope you go dark in the next couple of days. It would be perfect timing.
And I do predict your marriage will recover. No guarantees, but I think you have given your marriage the best chance!
Thank you!!! He said he wouldn't take another lie detector, because he already failed the first one. He is acting like he is doomed...
starfish, you have done a beautiful job setting the stage for Plan B. You have left a great taste in his mouth and told him in a 100 different ways that he has to tell the truth. He is still thinking he might be able to charm his way out of this and continue to hide the truth. Your Plan B will disabuse him of that notion.
I predict when you go into Plan B he will try for a couple of weeks to get through. He will call you directly, maybe stop by and enlist others to "talk some sense into you." The key will be to stay AIR TIGHT DARK no matter what. When you convince him you are dead serious and there will be no contact until and unless he comes clean, I predict he will come clean. But count on him to test it at every turn! If he can get you to relax your boundaries, then he won't have to meet your conditions!
So prepare to stay dark as night. Don't let him get through no matter what. Don't accidentally answer his calls, read his emails, nothing. Each and every time he tries to contact you, forward it to your IM and have her contact him with: "starfish deleted your email and did not read it. If you have any communications, please send it through me. Thank you!"
Another thing I want to prepare you for. When you do get the truth, you may reconsider your future with him. That is your option. You have a get out of jail free card with adultery. Just keep that in mind and keep your options open.
You have done a great job, my friend, and I hope you go dark in the next couple of days. It would be perfect timing.
And I do predict your marriage will recover. No guarantees, but I think you have given your marriage the best chance!
Thank you so much!!! I'm thinking about changing the locks tomorrow!
I predict when you go into Plan B he will try for a couple of weeks to get through. He will call you directly, maybe stop by and enlist others to "talk some sense into you." The key will be to stay AIR TIGHT DARK no matter what.
The way I deal with all my WH's little messengers is I say: "I cannot hear his name mentioned. It's too painful." Then they say they have somethng I really must hear and I say "He has a way to reach me, that is the only way I will accept messages". If people persist I get up and leave and I then Plan B them too. Some people respect my wishes, some dont. I still have a good relationship with my MIL, but WH has a cousin who was always trying to 'talk me round'.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Don't accidentally answer his calls, read his emails, nothing. Each and every time he tries to contact you, forward it to your IM and have her contact him with: "starfish deleted your email and did not read it. If you have any communications, please send it through me. Thank you!"
To make a plan truly dark you have to think like the wayward,and anticipate problems before they happen. How would he try to get in touch with you when you have changed your email and phone numbers etc? What will he do and what will your response be?
If he posts a note through the door... throw it away unread (very important you dont read)
If he bangs on the doors... ignore him.
If he is waiting outside the yoga class he knows you go to every week, just turn around and leave when you spot him.
You will be very weak and will miss him at first.. So it is very important you dont let any of his propaganda reach your ears....
After a few dark weeks you will be over the worst of withdrawal..
lol... I remembered something else from today... He told me that he didn't have sex with OW#1, not even kisses and then I noticed the slightest but of a smirk/smile! I know he is lying! I am the worst liar ever and when I'm confronted with something and try to lie, I smile! Dead giveaway!!!
[ If he posts a note through the door... throw it away unread (very important you dont read)
What does it mean to "post a note through the door??" Can you translate for the Americans??
Im going to assume that if I swap 'post' for 'mail' this sentence becomes acceptable?
It's pretty difficult, because watching American programmes/movies on TV since childhood shows you what crazy words you lot DO use.. (For years I was consumed with curiosity to find out what a 'Twinkie' was) but that method is no good for finding out what words you DON'T use.
My first trip to the States I was amazed to hear the the phrase 'to queue in a shop' was considered gibberish and you 'stood in line at the store'. I still find that one odd!
Star - this anticipated behavior of trying to break your Plan B was why so many of us stressed that you must consider alternatives to going back to work at the same place. He will go out of his way to find you at work, once you return from your leave of absence. You will have no protections there and he will know it.
Please please please figure this one out - get your resume out and change jobs. You simply cannot let this one go unprepared.
Star - this anticipated behavior of trying to break your Plan B was why so many of us stressed that you must consider alternatives to going back to work at the same place. He will go out of his way to find you at work, once you return from your leave of absence. You will have no protections there and he will know it.
Please please please figure this one out - get your resume out and change jobs. You simply cannot let this one go unprepared.
In the state and economy that we are in, I cannot change jobs and I will make it work. I'm a very strong-willed woman and I have a wonderful manager who has been telling me to get a plan. Spoke with him this past Friday and let him know that I would be needing his help with a plan that I'm working on and he said he would do anything he could to help me. I am out of work for two more weeks and have time to figure out the logistics with my IM. I have full faith that I can make this work with the appropriate precautions set in place. I have faith that I will receive good advice here and do whatever means possible to protect myself and any weak areas.
Met an EN on our boat today... Yep, I was the last one to have sex with my H before the boat sold! Take that OW#1!!!! Afterwards, I told him that we could have such a beautiful life and he said that we WOULD have a beautiful life together. Yes, but you still have some things to spill WH!!!
Awesome!
Originally Posted by starfish75
He hates it that I picked up smoking again and I told him that I dislike lying as much as he dislikes smoking. I told him that if he passes a polygraph, then I would throw my smokes away and never pick one up again and every time I had the urge, I would ask him for sex. He said it sounded like a good time! lol...
Even more awesome!
Originally Posted by starfish75
It was great!!! Afterwards, on the way back in the boat, I put my arm around him and told him if he stopped lying and came clean, I would quit smoking and we could have a long, beautiful life together. I reminded him to do what our MC said at our last session and he said, "To start over?". I said, "Yes, with the truth... all of it!". He nodded his head. I squeezed him (lovingly) and told him that all of our family, friends, counselors, acquaintances want us to work things out and he needs to do the right thing. He said, "Everyone knows how much we love each other!". I said, "Yes, and you need to do the right thing.". He put his head down and nodded again....
And then even more awesome!
Star, I don't know what the hell your WH is thinking, but from my standpoint, you are a woman to be truly admired.
Met an EN on our boat today... Yep, I was the last one to have sex with my H before the boat sold! Take that OW#1!!!! Afterwards, I told him that we could have such a beautiful life and he said that we WOULD have a beautiful life together. Yes, but you still have some things to spill WH!!!
Awesome!
Originally Posted by starfish75
He hates it that I picked up smoking again and I told him that I dislike lying as much as he dislikes smoking. I told him that if he passes a polygraph, then I would throw my smokes away and never pick one up again and every time I had the urge, I would ask him for sex. He said it sounded like a good time! lol...
Even more awesome!
Originally Posted by starfish75
It was great!!! Afterwards, on the way back in the boat, I put my arm around him and told him if he stopped lying and came clean, I would quit smoking and we could have a long, beautiful life together. I reminded him to do what our MC said at our last session and he said, "To start over?". I said, "Yes, with the truth... all of it!". He nodded his head. I squeezed him (lovingly) and told him that all of our family, friends, counselors, acquaintances want us to work things out and he needs to do the right thing. He said, "Everyone knows how much we love each other!". I said, "Yes, and you need to do the right thing.". He put his head down and nodded again....
And then even more awesome!
Star, I don't know what the hell your WH is thinking, but from my standpoint, you are a woman to be truly admired.
You are simply incredible
Hold your ground and hang in there
Thank you so much!!! Your kind words mean so much to me!!!
Are you all sure I can't get into trouble for changing the locks? How easy would it be for him to get back into the house?
Don't worry! It is not illegal in any state in the union to change the locks on your house. He would have to go to a lot of trouble to get back in. Especially since he has moved out.
It's up to you- for me- I left a voicemail explaining where he could find his belongings and the explanation for why. I placed the Plan B letter and a family picture in his bag.
I'm just wanting to make sure that I go about giving him the letter in the right way. I'm planning on leaving his belongings at my mom's. Guess I could leave the letter there too with a nice picture? I'll need to email him where he can pick up his stuff by email and then block his email. Anything in particular I should say in the email?
We are on a family plan with my mom and sister. Can I just delete his texts without reading?
Nope, sorry. You need to be completely 'in the dark' about whether he's trying to contact you. Changing your number shouldnt affect your plan/deal.
Originally Posted by starfish75
Should I pack up all his clothes and toiletries only?
This gives a very temporary message imo and will just encourage him to 'wait it out'. Pack up everything you can, even seasonal stuff he wont need for a year. As well as sending a good 'this is it for me if you're not honest' message, it removes triggers from your home. Once he's gone, and you're over the worst of it, youll need to get pack away things which remind you of him.
I'm just wanting to make sure that I go about giving him the letter in the right way. I'm planning on leaving his belongings at my mom's. Guess I could leave the letter there too with a nice picture?
I did this, dumped his things at his mothers with the letter, I didnt put a pic in though, I put in his St Christopher's medal which he used to loan me for luck when I had a big day. Same principle I suppose. I didnt bother with an email, but I would just tone it along the lines of practicality, like an addendum and just finish it with an I love you.
We are on a family plan with my mom and sister. Can I just delete his texts without reading?
Nope, sorry. You need to be completely 'in the dark' about whether he's trying to contact you. Changing your number shouldnt affect your plan/deal.
Originally Posted by starfish75
Should I pack up all his clothes and toiletries only?
This gives a very temporary message imo and will just encourage him to 'wait it out'. Pack up everything you can, even seasonal stuff he wont need for a year. As well as sending a good 'this is it for me if you're not honest' message, it removes triggers from your home. Once he's gone, and you're over the worst of it, youll need to get pack away things which remind you of him.
We are on the same plan, so this is going to be hard. I have so many things set up with my FMLA, customers, doctors, etc. I would need to get my own plan and then my mom and sister are on our plan too. Can I block his phone number? If I change my number, he will find out what it is anyway, so maybe I can just block his number? If not, then I can just delete his messages. I would have to do this anyway, because I know he will find out my new number.
Ok, so I will pack all of his clothes, toiletries, etc. Anything else I should pack? He already picked up his tool box.
He has his 4-wheeler in the garage too. Not sure what else he might need. I'm not going to be able to move his 4-wheeler, because there is a trailer too.
I guess I'm needing to know how to tell him where to pick up his stuff? I'd like to have the letter there too when he picks it up or should I give him the letter first (how?) and add the addendum about where he can pick up his stuff?
If you get a new number, WH can still get it if he is the account holder. Also, if you are on the same plan/bill, you cannot block a member that is on the same plan....believe me, i tried that too.
We are on the same plan, so this is going to be hard. I have so many things set up with my FMLA, customers, doctors, etc. I would need to get my own plan and then my mom and sister are on our plan too.
Call your phone company. They should be able to split the account up if you explain you are separating from your H and you and your mother and sister want to stay on a family plan. If he is the account holder and you arent', they will need his permission however. Your number would change but your contacts and everything will stay the same on your phone (at least they did for mine)
If you get a new number, WH can still get it if he is the account holder. Also, if you are on the same plan/bill, you cannot block a member that is on the same plan....believe me, i tried that too.
I would get a whole new account he knows nothing about and can't find the number for. Setiing his name as unknown means youwould get triggered every time you got one of those calls - you'd never get through withdrawal!
Get a new account and put your mum and sis on later, or call your provider and ask if they can sort something for you where your h won't know the number because you're separating.
I wasn't able to change mine in time for Plan B, but it was fine because I went camping for the weekend in the lakes where you can't get a signal anyway. I skipped any doorstep tantrums this way and when I got home I had a new phone number.
It would be a great idea to give them YOUR side of Plan B. Explain to them that you have great hope for your marriage, and you want to protect it from further harm until WH is ready. Explain that he's committed to doing some IC about his honesty issues - and that you hope that will help him disclose the rest of the truth to you.
Don't leave it to HIM to explain it -- because he will not explain it properly. He will make it all out to be about the polygraph and he will become a victim in his version!
Unless they already know, tell them more information has come to light since the polygraph - he has now admitted a long running emotional affair with OW1. Tell them you know there is still more and you need him to tell you everything BEFORE a polygraph which he must PASS next time. Tell them you love him and them. Then say if they want to speak with you during the separation they must agree not to mention WH or pass on news. It is too painful to hear his name while he is not being honest with you.
I have a good relationship with my MIL so I did this in person, but email is as good if you find it daunting or it interferes with your timing.
Be careful not to give them any new contact details unless they can be trusted not to pass them to WH.
Ok, locks changed and I took his stuff to my mom's house. Whew... I'm exhausted!!! I left the PBL on top of his clothes along with a wedding picture in a frame that reads "I Do".
Now, expect him to try to break your Plan B and get as dark as you can. Can you turn off your phones? Do you have somewhere you can go for a bit? I would also change the email addy, instead of just blocking him.
You're doing the right thing. It's gonna be a rough little bit, but you'll get through this.
Remember, the main point right now is to ensure NO CONTACT with your WH. And take care of yourself.
G'night - I'm off to bed after 15 hours at work, I hope your night is uneventful and you have some good girlfriends around if you need them. Hugs to you!
G'night - I'm off to bed after 15 hours at work, I hope your night is uneventful and you have some good girlfriends around if you need them. Hugs to you!
Yay Starfish is in B land! Learn the 'dark arts' of NC, sleep deeply, eat healthily (cakes are healthy), pack your life with happy things and come on here for venting and virtual hugs....and to tell us what colour your toenails are today. Its a B thing.
Crap!!! He went by our house first and figured out I had changed the locks, because my neighbor called me! He is at my mom's house now, so he will get the letter soon enough!
He cried at my mom's when he read my letter. He had brought me flowers, because we had such a wonderful weekend together. Left the flowers with my mom and asked her to make sure I received them. He said he was in shock and didn't know what else he could tell me, as he has already told me everything. He said he had such a wonderful weekend with me and this was the first Monday that he actually felt good going to work. He is in total shock!
This is going to be perhaps a more tricky part of Plan B...but ask your mom and anyone else who may speak to WH to NOT TELL you what he is saying/doing (crying).
Also anything that he asks them to pass along should be met with a "No, I am sorry but I cannot pass along any messages/gifts"...etc.
Haven't been able to do anything about my phone yet. He just sent me the following text:
I'm in complete shock. I had the best day in weeks, thinking about you all day and how much fun I had this weekend, and now that was completely destroyed. I don't know what happened between yesterday and today. I don't know where to go from here.
He cried at my mom's when he read my letter. He had brought me flowers, because we had such a wonderful weekend together. Left the flowers with my mom and asked her to make sure I received them. He said he was in shock and didn't know what else he could tell me, as he has already told me everything. He said he had such a wonderful weekend with me and this was the first Monday that he actually felt good going to work. He is in total shock!
That is EXACTLY what you were trying to achieve. Now try to ensure you dont hear anything else about what he says or does!!! Easier once the Plan B dust settles.
Is he blocked on all social networking sites? It gets very tempting to check FBetc if you dont. OW should be blocked too.
He cried at my mom's when he read my letter. He had brought me flowers, because we had such a wonderful weekend together. Left the flowers with my mom and asked her to make sure I received them. He said he was in shock and didn't know what else he could tell me, as he has already told me everything. He said he had such a wonderful weekend with me and this was the first Monday that he actually felt good going to work. He is in total shock!
That is EXACTLY what you were trying to achieve. Now try to ensure you dont hear anything else about what he says or does!!! Easier once the Plan B dust settles.
Is he blocked on all social networking sites? It gets very tempting to check FBetc if you dont. OW should be blocked too.
He deleted his Facebook. No other social networking sites...
I'll try to get the phone stuff taken care of tomorrow. He sent me another text... Is this normal?
I know I broke your heart and if you were looking to break mine you have. I can it give you information I don't have. I'm not going to make things up. I feel this might be the end of us for good. At least we spent one last weekend together. I'll cherish that memory for the rest of my life. �Love, WS
Also, spoke to my MIL and she understands why I'm doing what I'm doing.
sf, please don't read anymore of his texts. Can you block him?
And has he read your letter yet? If so the IM needs to send him an email and say "please relay all pertinent information through me as starfish is deleting your communications without reading them. Thank you"
Text him back one time: please do not contact me until you have agreed to the terms in my letter.
Then don't contact him again.
To add to this, EXPECT him to text you again, but don't open it...delete immediately without reading.
Star, you really do need to get this phone sitch rectified tomorrow. This is going to get worse before it gets better, and the darker you are, the faster the better comes.
Check out Boost Mobile if you're not looking to get tied up into any long term contracts. I'm getting ready to switch to them myself as soon as my contract is up.
Since you can't block him yet, turn the phone off, and then have a trusted friend turn it on for you tomorrow and delete the messages. You should NOT be seeing them.
Now, get yourself a new email addy, and don't use the other one. Blocking him won't be enough.
How else could he contact you?
Remember, for the time being, the most important thing you need to do is have ZERO contact with your WH.
You need to give me a key to our house. You legally can not keep me from getting inside. Please make me a key or if you have one let me know when I can pick it up
You need to give me a key to our house. You legally can not keep me from getting inside. Please make me a key or if you have one let me know when I can pick it up
Star, the help you've been given is to STOP READING HIS TEXTS. Reply like MelodyLane told you. Either he respects it and goes through your IM or not, but YOU need to STOP reading them.
Should I send his friend that he is staying with a text? I want him to know that my intentions are good and I just need WH to be honest. Good or bad idea? He is a mutual friend.
What do you all think? I've written a lot about my situation so far... I know ML shared what she thought might happen. Any others here willing to share what your gut is telling you...? Do you think my WH will hit bottom and do the right thing? I'm just not sure... he seems like such a fighter right now!
I've never done anything like this before and more than anything, I want my marriage to work. I'm going to be having some rough days now...
What do you all think? I've written a lot about my situation so far... I know ML shared what she thought might happen. Any others here willing to share what your gut is telling you...? Do you think my WH will hit bottom and do the right thing? I'm just not sure... he seems like such a fighter right now!
I've never done anything like this before and more than anything, I want my marriage to work. I'm going to be having some rough days now...
Star hon, just what were you expecting? Everyone here told you exactly what to expect, and so far it's come to pass...and it's only Day 1.
I get the sense that you thought this Plan B would snap him out of it immediately, admit the truth, take the poly, pass the poly, and then life goes back to normal in a few days. Is this what you really thought?
It's going to take time, and a tremendous amount of strength from you, but strength I know you possess. Lord knows we've seen it here!!!!
You must block all access channels for him and start looking out for yourself.
You don't think about any of it getting back to him, because you are in PB now. It's a whole different ballgame. Now, it's time to get you thinking about you.
Did you turn off that phone?
I know how sneaky us PBers are. I know that a part of you WANTS your WH to contact you. Don't let him. Protect yourself
What do you all think? I've written a lot about my situation so far... I know ML shared what she thought might happen. Any others here willing to share what your gut is telling you...? Do you think my WH will hit bottom and do the right thing? I'm just not sure... he seems like such a fighter right now!
I've never done anything like this before and more than anything, I want my marriage to work. I'm going to be having some rough days now...
Star hon, just what were you expecting? Everyone here told you exactly what to expect, and so far it's come to pass...and it's only Day 1.
I get the sense that you thought this Plan B would snap him out of it immediately, admit the truth, take the poly, pass the poly, and then life goes back to normal in a few days. Is this what you really thought?
It's going to take time, and a tremendous amount of strength from you, but strength I know you possess. Lord knows we've seen it here!!!!
You must block all access channels for him and start looking out for yourself.
Now, it's all about you
Actually, I ignored this from SF, because.......PLAN B. It's protection time. It's not time to focus on what this will do to WH, it's time to figure out how to get SF into the darkest PB possible for HER protection. Priorities. WH can wait out in the cold for all I care. He wasn't protecting SF, so now, I will help her protect herself.
starfish, remember that the primary goal of Plan B is your emotional health. Every hole in your Plan B is a danger to your emotional health. Women go through horrible post-traumatic stress issues after going through life experiences like this. We do not want you winding up years down the road with nightmares, flashbacks, and a damaged immune system.
Please listen closely to the things people are telling you you still need to do. Don't leave these undone. Change your number. You need to take steps to build your wall higher so that he is discouraged from trying to climb over the wall.
What do you all think? I've written a lot about my situation so far... I know ML shared what she thought might happen. Any others here willing to share what your gut is telling you...? Do you think my WH will hit bottom and do the right thing? I'm just not sure... he seems like such a fighter right now!
I've never done anything like this before and more than anything, I want my marriage to work. I'm going to be having some rough days now...
Star hon, just what were you expecting? Everyone here told you exactly what to expect, and so far it's come to pass...and it's only Day 1.
I get the sense that you thought this Plan B would snap him out of it immediately, admit the truth, take the poly, pass the poly, and then life goes back to normal in a few days. Is this what you really thought?
It's going to take time, and a tremendous amount of strength from you, but strength I know you possess. Lord knows we've seen it here!!!!
You must block all access channels for him and start looking out for yourself.
Now, it's all about you
It's one thing to talk about things and letting me know what I can expect. It's another thing to be actually experiencing these things. Of course, I had no idea what I would be feeling or how this is going to effect me in weeks to come. I have been in survival mode, being so strong that I haven't had a chance to grieve.
I'm asking questions, because I'm curious about how things have or haven't turned out for the rest of you. Of course, I'm having a very difficult time letting go and taking care of me. I'll get there, but please be patient with me. I'm just curious about what everyone else has experienced. I might not be thinking the way I'm supposed to or how everyone expects me to react, but I've done a lot today and didn't eat until 7:30pm. I know... not good, but I had a lot to do today and I made it happen!
I wish I could cry and get it all out, but I'm just still in shock. My WH still hasn't been completely honest with me, so I'm not sure what all I have to grieve over yet. Maybe I'm waiting until I know it all... The trickle-truth pain is so hard and I feel like I've been holding back...
Can you go stay at your mom's for a couple of nights, in case he comes beating on the door?
This is a GREAT idea. Especially since you have that intel that he isn't happy about the locks having been changed.
Yes, I could... She has cats though and I have two dogs and a cat. He didn't have room to get all of his stuff, so he is going to go back to my mom's tomorrow to pick everything up. He had to find a place to store everything.
I will make sure that I'm surrounding myself with family and friends the next few days. I hung out with my neighbors for an hour or so tonight. Anxiety started kicking in, so I came back home.
I have been following your story because what your WH husband is saying to you is EXACTLY, word-for-word, what my husband said to me.
Originally Posted by starfish75
He told me that he didn't have sex with OW#1, not even kisses
Nope. No affair. Check.
Originally Posted by starfish75
I want to let you know that I have not been completely honest about OW#1 over the last two years.
Well, okay, maybe I held back a little bit. But just a little bit. Check.
Originally Posted by starfish75
OW#1 did tell me as I was getting in my truck that she loved me. I responded with I love you too, and you�ll get through this. Not sure why I told her I loved her, but she was very emotional, and that was how I responded.
She was emotional and I felt bad for her. Check.
Originally Posted by starfish75
"Everyone knows how much we love each other!".
Yes! Let's start over! All we need is love...(cue the Beatles). Check.
Originally Posted by starfish75
I can it give you information I don't have. I'm not going to make things up.
Stick to the story. Just stick to the story. Check. (I heard this line for four consecutive years).
Originally Posted by starfish75
He cried at...when he read my letter.
Oh, ****edit****, she might really mean it this time...Check.
Starfish, stick to your guns. You DO NOT want to go through what I've been through. POLYGRAPH, POLYGRAPH, POLYGRAPH.
I have been following your story because what your WH husband is saying to you is EXACTLY, word-for-word, what my husband said to me.
Originally Posted by starfish75
He told me that he didn't have sex with OW#1, not even kisses
Nope. No affair. Check.
Originally Posted by starfish75
I want to let you know that I have not been completely honest about OW#1 over the last two years.
Well, okay, maybe I held back a little bit. But just a little bit. Check.
Originally Posted by starfish75
OW#1 did tell me as I was getting in my truck that she loved me. I responded with I love you too, and you�ll get through this. Not sure why I told her I loved her, but she was very emotional, and that was how I responded.
She was emotional and I felt bad for her. Check.
Originally Posted by starfish75
"Everyone knows how much we love each other!".
Yes! Let's start over! All we need is love...(cue the Beatles). Check.
Originally Posted by starfish75
I can it give you information I don't have. I'm not going to make things up.
Stick to the story. Just stick to the story. Check. (I heard this line for four consecutive years).
Originally Posted by starfish75
He cried at...when he read my letter.
Oh, ****edit****, she might really mean it this time...Check.
Starfish, stick to your guns. You DO NOT want to go through what I've been through. POLYGRAPH, POLYGRAPH, POLYGRAPH.
If it doesn't make sense, IT IS A LIE.
Good luck.
BV
Thank you for sharing your similar experiences. I'm sorry for what you have been through!!! It's amazing all of the similarities.... WS's do read from the same book.
Yesterday he thought you bought the lies and he could gaslight you out of the poly.
Today and tomorrow and for the next few days he's going to do everything in his power to get you back under his control/power/manipulation/charm.
You said no contact. Any acknowledgement of his threat about the key and you undermine your Plan B.
Ignore it. Find a hotel that will allow the dogs for a few days so you remove yourself one step further from his reach.
But understand what I was saying about the job.
It is a threat to your Plan B.
And yes - I know there's a recession still going no matter what the politicians say. Get your resume out there anyway. You have way too much exposure risk to breaking Plan B with the job you have.
You need to give yourself time for Plan B to start working its magic. Right now you are also under a spell, a fog, too many emotions, battles for the truth.
Let things settle, and a new peace will soon shine bright!
Hope you are able to keep dark. I was reading Kayla's post (link on her signature) and lots of good posts there on Plan B.
I had to let him in... He threatened to call the police and my attorney said I can't keep him out unless there is physical violence. He is demanding that I give him a key or he will call out a locksmith.
Hold on tight. Slow down. Breathe. You can do this.
You will be O.K.
Keep posting, keep reading. If you have not given him keys, GO TO A HOTEL for a few days. If you are not home, you can not be bothered. SHUT THE PHONE OFF.
If I understand it right, the police will not get involved in a domestic dispute of this nature, they will tell your husband to contact legal councel. I could not even get a cop to unlock my locked car door (with the keys in the ignition) because he said IT MAY be a domestic disipute, and he did not want me to gain access to the vehicle without a title in my name only. ................ ;/
A simple thought, here...he knows what it would take to be back with you and it's quite a simple, reasonable request. However, instead he decides to pressure you with various tactics to take him back on his terms (that he doesn't have to be honest with you). Protect yourself from pressure using your Plan B and excellent IM.
I told him to leave and that I needed to get ready for my appt. with my IC. He said he doesn't understand why I changed the locks and I told him that I'm focusing on myself right now. I can't worry about him anymore... I still love him, but he knows what he needs to do and be honest. I asked him not to lie to me anymore about how he has told me everything. He needs to tell me now, write it out or talk to his own therapist that is helping him with lying and dishonesty. I told him that it would be so easy for him to come back home and he knows what he needs to do. I asked him again to leave and he did.
Should I call the police? He is removing property from the house?
Leave the house and call your lawyer. Tell your lawyer to do what it takes to keep him out. If your lawyer says he can't do that, then you need to tell him to figure it out. And in the meantime, LEAVE.
Good job, starfish. Well, we told you it would get worse before it got better. This little temper tantrum by him doesn't surprise me at all. Very typical. But, don't open that door again, okay?? If he feels he needs to call the cops, let him. If he feels he needs to call his attorney, let him. If he feels he needs to call the pope, let him. But make him do it. Don't let him off easy by letting him in again.
He is here... I told him to leave. I told him he knows what he needs to do. I'm focused on the marriage and he is concerned with possessions.
Just dont answer the door at all. Get a male relative around to talk to him if need be, while you take a bubble bath. The last time Scotty's H threw a fit on the doorstep she simply, ignored the noise and caught up on her reading till he went away.
Originally Posted by starfish75
He said he will call a locksmith.
Haha! Why do they ALL say the same stuff? What kind of locksmith is so desperate for cash that they are going to help a crazed man break into the house of a woman who won't even answer the door! Locksmiths aren't judges, they're just tradesmen, they arent going to get in the middle of all that!
The locksmith who came to my house said on the phone he could only change the locks if I could open the door and had the original key. Which I did.
Originally Posted by starfish75
My attorney said I can't keep him from the house and might need to file for divorce.
They all say that. Legally you cant ban him from the house, but practically he cant make you let him in either. So dont sweat it. I dont think US laws are million miles different from the UK's from what I've seen on here. My lawyer said I could call the police if he broke in, but warned me they weren't legally obliged to make him leave. (though she added they probabaly would make him leave to keep the peace) Then she said if the police did nothing and he wouldnt leave, she would start filing orders trying to get him out.
None of it ever went that far, despite my WHs threats of locksmiths and breaking in, because waywards are all talk.
You have exposed him as a cheat to everyone, the LAST thing he would want to do is start breaking into your home. How does that maake him look?
Get a separation agreement or divorce or whatever your lawyer says you need for protection, but just remember, you are immune to his threats if YOU CAN'T HEAR THEM
This is for your emotional health. You must build your walls higher.
Do not tell him anything. This is a part of the walls you need to build.
Originally Posted by starfish75
He said he doesn't understand why I changed the locks
Making him understand is not your job. You can't do this, and it is emotionally dangerous for you to try.
When he wants to expend some effort to understand things, he will be able to understand things like this on his own, with just a little bit of effort using your Plan B letter as a guide. In the meantime, it is crazy-making to try to explain things to a rock.
The thing is that she can't know that until she knows what the "more" is. She can't make an informed decision without all the facts. She has a right to all of those facts.
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**EDIT**
Most attorneys are very lazy and will take the path of least resistance unless challenged. The solution is to change the locks and tell the attorney to get moving and make it happen. And many do exactly that when challenged! It is not illegal in any state in this union to change the locks on ones own doors.
Excuse me, this is very bad and distracting advice for someone in Plan B. If I am reading correctly, she has delivered her Plan B letter to him. He knows all that he needs to know, if he will quit being lazy and actually read and listen to the letter. Since he's not listening to the letter, there is no explaining anything to him.
Should I call the police? He is removing property from the house?
Leave the house and call your lawyer. Tell your lawyer to do what it takes to keep him out. If your lawyer says he can't do that, then you need to tell him to figure it out. And in the meantime, LEAVE.
My wayward mother's lawyers were willing to get restraining orders and such with no evidence at all. Any decent lawyer ought to be able to protect a betrayed wife by getting her husband out of the house, at least temporarily, while a court sorts it out.
I called my MIL this morning and she said WH is out of sorts and that he is upset I changed the locks. She said he doesn't know what to think now after the nice weekend that you had. She doesn't think it was right for me to change the locks, because it's his house too.
I called my MIL this morning and she said WH is out of sorts and that he is upset I changed the locks.
Yes, this is typical. The wayward usually rages when Plan B starts, and that is a very good thing.
Protect yourself from this stuff. Stay away from it. Plan B is for your emotional health. He will go crazy and do everything he can to reestablish control by getting you to poke holes in your walls.
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She said he doesn't know what to think now after the nice weekend that you had.
The only reason he doesn't know what to think is that he is currently a lazy wayward jerk who won't read or listen to your Plan B letter.
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She doesn't think it was right for me to change the locks, because it's his house too.
She doesn't know how to save a marriage, either.
I would get a lawyer to solidify your Plan B legally ASAP. Build your walls high.
I called my MIL this morning and she said WH is out of sorts and that he is upset I changed the locks. She said he doesn't know what to think now after the nice weekend that you had. She doesn't think it was right for me to change the locks, because it's his house too.
Sure it's still his house too, but it's not his home any longer. And just who's fault is that? He's the one that made his choices that led to this, not you. He also has the choice to meet your conditions to make it his home again.
It's entirely up to him. You MIL needs to understand this.
My mom came by and he was telling her I locked her out of the house. My mom told him that it was my choice, just like it was for him to have affairs and I didn't deserve that either.
I called my MIL this morning and she said WH is out of sorts and that he is upset I changed the locks. She said he doesn't know what to think now after the nice weekend that you had. She doesn't think it was right for me to change the locks, because it's his house too.
Why is he trying to get in if you have asked him to leave you alone? His lying has been stressful enough. Why won't he respect your wishes? Tell your MIL you need a break and have explained that in the letter. He moved out and you can't have him coming in the house when the spirit moves him. You need some peace and quiet from his games.
SF, tell your MIL that if he won't respect your wishes and leave you alone you will have to file for divorce. You were hoping he would respect your wishes after the hell he has put you through but apparently not.
He is trying to make you into the bad guy for changing the locks. Turn that right back on him!!
I have been reading your posts since the beginning. You are an amazing woman and an inspiration to many, many people who are on these threads!
My WH gave me trickle truths for over a year about EA's and situations that happened in the past. My gut instinct always told me there was more. I threatened polygraphs, but he talked me out of it until one night I determinedly told him that he didn't have to agree WITH it he just needed to agree to DO it (show up)and that I was going to schedule one. Over that year I had seen a handful of moments where he was really on the brink of coming clean, and that night I saw one of those moments. I think I have seen a few of them in your story with your WH. Fortunately for me, that night he made the right choice and came clean with the things he was hiding. Now, we are slowly on the road to recovery.
I see a lot of similarities in our stories. In my case my WH wanted to come clean but he was scared, to not only be honest to me and suffer those consequences, but to be honest with himself. He had a lot of shame and guilt for what he had done, and he had buried it in his past and didn't have to stare it in the face every day like he does now. Self preservation through self denial at its finest. I just want you to know that there is hope. Nobody can say whether you WH will make the right choice or not, and you do need to take care of yourself and demand that he does before you start the rebuilding process. But there is hope that he MIGHT. I know you have been asking for that reassurance. He will, however, have NO REASON to come clean if you let up on your plan. Every time you want to stray from Plan B, ask yourself what the alternative is, being married to a man who is still lying to you and has no reason to stop.
Stay strong, you have a huge following on these threads that believe in you!
And don't give him a key!! Make him get a court order to get in and when it comes to court your attorney can get in front of the judge and explain the REASONS why you don't want him in. Your husband can then hear his mud dragged through court!
I called my MIL this morning and she said WH is out of sorts and that he is upset I changed the locks. She said he doesn't know what to think now after the nice weekend that you had. She doesn't think it was right for me to change the locks, because it's his house too.
I had thought she might be trouble after the whole I 'choose to believe' thing. Wow I wonder if she ever had the nerve to tell him to wash up for dinner. Mothers are supposed to be able to spot liars!!
Tell her word for word what Mel said about the divorce. That's outrageous that she expects you to just suffer under his lying and abuse.
The 'nice weekend' is no reason for her to volunteer you for further abuse. The nice weekend was a testament to your patience and courageousness in staying calm and strong under all the gaslighting. HE had a nice weekend. YOU had stetched your nerves to breaking point to save your marriage.
I dont see anything wrong in telling your MIL that while your WH had a nice time with you, and while you love him, you are being put under incredible strain by his ongoing lies.
Every time you want to stray from Plan B, ask yourself what the alternative is, being married to a man who is still lying to you and has no reason to stop.
Such wise words! Your first post, unwritten? I would be interested in reading your story or seeing you post your own thread.
[ I had thought she might be trouble after the whole I 'choose to believe' thing. Wow I wonder if she ever had the nerve to tell him to wash up for dinner. Mothers are supposed to be able to spot liars!!
I have thought about this and I think the reason he is such a practiced liar is because he was able to lie to his mother and get away with it. Some people just do not have a good bullsh** detector. I have often thought if I was not a BS detector, that my son would have turned out like this too. He is very smooth but when he tried to lie to me, I nailed him every time so he just got in the habit of telling the truth. Today he is a very honest and honorable young man.
Yes my first post! I have been stalking the forums for about a month, trying to decide if I should write up my story at some point (read yours btw, you are another VERY inspirational woman!). I wish I had found these forums a decade ago, it would have been life changing for me. I would have had A PLAN instead of wallowing around with no plan for years. And I would have had support, instead of feeling isolated and like nobody understood. A plan and support laid out by some very amazing and inspirational people, in a tough love format:) I am just happy to be here now, and have learned more about marriage and life than I ever could have hoped for.
I have been reading your posts since the beginning. You are an amazing woman and an inspiration to many, many people who are on these threads!
My WH gave me trickle truths for over a year about EA's and situations that happened in the past. My gut instinct always told me there was more. I threatened polygraphs, but he talked me out of it until one night I determinedly told him that he didn't have to agree WITH it he just needed to agree to DO it (show up)and that I was going to schedule one. Over that year I had seen a handful of moments where he was really on the brink of coming clean, and that night I saw one of those moments. I think I have seen a few of them in your story with your WH. Fortunately for me, that night he made the right choice and came clean with the things he was hiding. Now, we are slowly on the road to recovery.
I see a lot of similarities in our stories. In my case my WH wanted to come clean but he was scared, to not only be honest to me and suffer those consequences, but to be honest with himself. He had a lot of shame and guilt for what he had done, and he had buried it in his past and didn't have to stare it in the face every day like he does now. Self preservation through self denial at its finest. I just want you to know that there is hope. Nobody can say whether you WH will make the right choice or not, and you do need to take care of yourself and demand that he does before you start the rebuilding process. But there is hope that he MIGHT. I know you have been asking for that reassurance. He will, however, have NO REASON to come clean if you let up on your plan. Every time you want to stray from Plan B, ask yourself what the alternative is, being married to a man who is still lying to you and has no reason to stop.
Stay strong, you have a huge following on these threads that believe in you!
Thank you so much!!! Thank you for sharing with me about your situation too. It helps to hear others stories... I hope I'm able to help others too someday!!!
I need a break and have explained that in the letter. He moved out and i can't have him coming in the house when the spirit moves him. I need some peace and quiet from his games. I was hoping he would respect my wishes after the hell he has put me through, but apparently not. I need some time for myself right now and Bryan needs to come clean with the truth (all of it), if he wants to work on rebuilding our marriage. My doctors are advising me to focus on taking care of myself right now and I need some peace for myself. I love you!
I have been reading your posts since the beginning. You are an amazing woman and an inspiration to many, many people who are on these threads!
My WH gave me trickle truths for over a year about EA's and situations that happened in the past. My gut instinct always told me there was more. I threatened polygraphs, but he talked me out of it until one night I determinedly told him that he didn't have to agree WITH it he just needed to agree to DO it (show up)and that I was going to schedule one. Over that year I had seen a handful of moments where he was really on the brink of coming clean, and that night I saw one of those moments. I think I have seen a few of them in your story with your WH. Fortunately for me, that night he made the right choice and came clean with the things he was hiding. Now, we are slowly on the road to recovery.
I see a lot of similarities in our stories. In my case my WH wanted to come clean but he was scared, to not only be honest to me and suffer those consequences, but to be honest with himself. He had a lot of shame and guilt for what he had done, and he had buried it in his past and didn't have to stare it in the face every day like he does now. Self preservation through self denial at its finest. I just want you to know that there is hope. Nobody can say whether you WH will make the right choice or not, and you do need to take care of yourself and demand that he does before you start the rebuilding process. But there is hope that he MIGHT. I know you have been asking for that reassurance. He will, however, have NO REASON to come clean if you let up on your plan. Every time you want to stray from Plan B, ask yourself what the alternative is, being married to a man who is still lying to you and has no reason to stop.
Stay strong, you have a huge following on these threads that believe in you!
I had talked to him on his way home from work about the poly. He was giving me the usual reasons why he did not want to take a poly and I just said, I don't care if you agree, will you do it? It was one of the few times I showed conviction and didn't let him manipulate the situation because of what I wanted to believe. When he got home I didn't let up, I kept saying I needed the truth. I could not go on in our marriage without the truth. If he could take a poly and prove that I had the truth then why wouldn't he want to do that. We put the kids to bed and sat down on the couch together. I kept on the poly topic because I could see it was starting to affect him. He kept saying I don't have a choice, I don't agree with it but if I don't take it you won't believe me. I said, there is a third option and that is to just tell the truth. Right here and now tell the truth. He had his head down and his hands were shaking and my heart was beating out of my chest because I knew this was it, I was thinking, what did I do??? Because you know, SF, as I did, that the truth is gonna HURT. I stayed calm and supportive and he just spilled it. I would have to say, looking back on that moment and the trickle truths, the times I have gotten info were when he was caught off guard with my calm and supportive casual attitude, vs during a fight or other highly emotionally charged situation. I know you have had many of those calm supportive moments with your WH.
There were many, many moments like this where he made the choice NOT to tell the truth. I couldn't tell you why he chose that moment to come clean. I think it was the real threat of a poly, which he knew he wouldn't pass. And I know your WH is beyond that, he actually took and failed the poly, so he seems even more determined to hold out.
I'm just praying with everything that I have that Plan B will work for the both of us... Me: for my sanity/peace, Him: to hit rock bottom and come clean.
I had talked to him on his way home from work about the poly. He was giving me the usual reasons why he did not want to take a poly and I just said, I don't care if you agree, will you do it? It was one of the few times I showed conviction and didn't let him manipulate the situation because of what I wanted to believe. When he got home I didn't let up, I kept saying I needed the truth. I could not go on in our marriage without the truth. If he could take a poly and prove that I had the truth then why wouldn't he want to do that. We put the kids to bed and sat down on the couch together. I kept on the poly topic because I could see it was starting to affect him. He kept saying I don't have a choice, I don't agree with it but if I don't take it you won't believe me. I said, there is a third option and that is to just tell the truth. Right here and now tell the truth. He had his head down and his hands were shaking and my heart was beating out of my chest because I knew this was it, I was thinking, what did I do??? Because you know, SF, as I did, that the truth is gonna HURT. I stayed calm and supportive and he just spilled it. I would have to say, looking back on that moment and the trickle truths, the times I have gotten info were when he was caught off guard with my calm and supportive casual attitude, vs during a fight or other highly emotionally charged situation. I know you have had many of those calm supportive moments with your WH.
There were many, many moments like this where he made the choice NOT to tell the truth. I couldn't tell you why he chose that moment to come clean. I think it was the real threat of a poly, which he knew he wouldn't pass. And I know your WH is beyond that, he actually took and failed the poly, so he seems even more determined to hold out.
Thank you for sharing. I only wish my WH could have been as courageous as your H was in telling the truth before the polygraph. Maybe someday...
I will also say SF that we had almost a decade of him being deceptive and me just letting the lies and instability change who I was, from a strong spunky woman to a very insecure woman. Then, I hit a brick wall where I just couldn't do it anymore, and doodoo hit the fan so to speak. I began to challenge him and demand the truth. That went on for a year plus during which I got trickle truths, until D-Day. My point here is that during those years where I let him lie and just buried my head in the sand and had a pity party for me, he NEVER would have told me the truth. He had no reason to. Unfortunately, our pain is not a reason to, as much as we wish it was. It wasn't until I challenged him and demanded it, and was serious, that he told the truth. It took me a LONG time to get there, which is why you are amazing because you have done all this in such a short period of time. You are on the right road, if you ever do get the truth it will only happen by you being strong and demanding it as a condition to marriage, there is no other way.
And don't give him a key!! Make him get a court order to get in and when it comes to court your attorney can get in front of the judge and explain the REASONS why you don't want him in. Your husband can then hear his mud dragged through court!
I called my MIL this morning and she said WH is out of sorts and that he is upset I changed the locks. She said he doesn't know what to think now after the nice weekend that you had. She doesn't think it was right for me to change the locks, because it's his house too.
Sure it's still his house too, but it's not his home any longer. And just who's fault is that? He's the one that made his choices that led to this, not you. He also has the choice to meet your conditions to make it his home again.
It's entirely up to him. You MIL needs to understand this.
I will also say SF that we had almost a decade of him being deceptive and me just letting the lies and instability change who I was, from a strong spunky woman to a very insecure woman. Then, I hit a brick wall where I just couldn't do it anymore, and doodoo hit the fan so to speak. I began to challenge him and demand the truth. That went on for a year plus during which I got trickle truths, until D-Day. My point here is that during those years where I let him lie and just buried my head in the sand and had a pity party for me, he NEVER would have told me the truth. He had no reason to. Unfortunately, our pain is not a reason to, as much as we wish it was. It wasn't until I challenged him and demanded it, and was serious, that he told the truth. It took me a LONG time to get there, which is why you are amazing because you have done all this in such a short period of time. You are on the right road, if you ever do get the truth it will only happen by you being strong and demanding it as a condition to marriage, there is no other way.
Wow!!! I can't imagine the pain you felt during that time and I'm sure it was equally as hard, but a relief when he finally spilled the beans! What did your H admit to?
Over the course of that year he admitted to a handful of situations (lap dance, giving a girl a backrub at a party, etc.) and EA's, one of which included things like phone sex and photos. The only thing he left until D-Day was a ONS he had very early in our marriage, during a very difficult and volatile time for me. It was the ONS that he figured I would leave him for, as I always told him I would leave a man who cheated and 'cheating' to him (and most people) meant PA. One of the things about this forum is seeing what challenges other people have to overcome, that make mine seem simple. NOTE: He still has not had a poly, so D-Day truths have never been confirmed. The reality is there could be more.
Relief, yes. In the movies people burn clothes or beat each other up, or run out sobbing hysterically. I suppose some people do that! He was crying and I put my arm around him to comfort him, and thanked him for being honest. And I did feel relief, I felt like all this time I questioned my instinct and I was right all along, there was deception present during the entire course of our marriage and I wasn't really off my rocker after all.
Over the course of that year he admitted to a handful of situations (lap dance, giving a girl a backrub at a party, etc.) and EA's, one of which included things like phone sex and photos. The only thing he left until D-Day was a ONS he had very early in our marriage, during a very difficult and volatile time for me. It was the ONS that he figured I would leave him for, as I always told him I would leave a man who cheated and 'cheating' to him (and most people) meant PA. One of the things about this forum is seeing what challenges other people have to overcome, that make mine seem simple. NOTE: He still has not had a poly, so D-Day truths have never been confirmed. The reality is there could be more.
Relief, yes. In the movies people burn clothes or beat each other up, or run out sobbing hysterically. I suppose some people do that! He was crying and I put my arm around him to comfort him, and thanked him for being honest. And I did feel relief, I felt like all this time I questioned my instinct and I was right all along, there was deception present during the entire course of our marriage and I wasn't really off my rocker after all.
It's amazing how when we truly listen to our gut instinct, it is usually correct. It might be healing for you to share your story too... Do you think your husband will take a poly?
Always trust your gut! My husband has been asking to take a poly since D-Day. This is where my non healed, resentful, bitter, love busting taker is about to rear its ugly head. After he confessed the ONS my gut instinct told me, that was it, you know it all. Gut instinct and just reading his actions/reactions to things, he is just a different man now. But I didn't want to give him the satisfaction of being BELIEVED and TRUSTED. I continued to tell him I didn't trust that he had told me all, at which he was/is very frustrated because he finally did tell it all and now I still don't believe him! My taker said, he lied for over a DECADE and finally after all that comes clean, and expects to just have you say OK, I believe you? That just doesn't seem fair, even though I did. My vengeful side wanted him to pay the consequence of being the boy who cried wolf, when after 99 lies the 100th time he told the truth and nobody believed him! I guess I was just so angry and resentful and hurt I wanted him to pay that consequence for awhile. It has just been recently I admitted all this to him and told him I am ready for him to do the poly to 'prove himself' and he is planning to set that up soon. Don't follow my lead on that big love busting poly method folks.
Unwritten - start a thread hon, what's keeping you!
Originally Posted by unwritten
And I know your WH is beyond that, he actually took and failed the poly, so he seems even more determined to hold out.
Unwritten, (clearly a graduate from the wayward school of hard knocks) is right about Sfishes' WH's incredible stubborness and arrogance when it comes to the lies.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
I have thought about this and I think the reason he is such a practiced liar is because he was able to lie to his mother and get away with it. Some people just do not have a good bullsh** detector.
I couldnt agree more with this, and I think he has grown up in an atmosphere where he has been encouraged to take the easy way out through lies - and also supported in the mistaken belief he is a super smooth liar.
He thought he was so good he could fake a poly!!! When in truth a child could see through his tales. Last week he was moving into a bachelor pad to live free'n'easy unless Starfish dropped her poly request. Bluff called. This week he's outraged he doesnt have access to 'his home' (has he forgotten his lie about the bachelor pad or what?) and is going to somehow talk a locksmith into helping him bully his wife. Bluff called again.
I'm just praying with everything that I have that Plan B will work for the both of us... Me: for my sanity/peace, Him: to hit rock bottom and come clean.
Even though I dont think all too much about my WH any more I must say I agree with this sentiment. Even if mine doesnt come around until after it is too late for me, I hope he does someday. I dont wish him harm, and hope he lives a good life at some point. You and I are doing our best for our WHs, Starfish, as we promised to do in our vows - by letting them hit rock bottom. But the priority is US.
If u need a break, u could fly up here. We could just shop, eat out & only talk if u wanted 2. The springtime is lovely.
YIKES. Not sure how you feel about that, but she's already been quite the negative influence on your Plan B. Best case scenario she's a tad foolish and will nag you to be foolish too. Worst case she just doesn't care about your feeling, only her son's. I'm not saying she wont come around and respect your boundaries, but maybe not tackle this while thing are so raw. For the next few weeks at least you want only rock solid people around you.
I'd tell her you want some time by yourself right now but maybe a bit further on.
I'm just praying with everything that I have that Plan B will work for the both of us... Me: for my sanity/peace, Him: to hit rock bottom and come clean.
Even though I dont think all too much about my WH any more I must say I agree with this sentiment. Even if mine doesnt come around until after it is too late for me, I hope he does someday. I dont wish him harm, and hope he lives a good life at some point. You and I are doing our best for our WHs, Starfish, as we promised to do in our vows - by letting them hit rock bottom. But the priority is US.
This is really hard! I spoke with another attorney today and she said that he could call a locksmith out while I'm at work, etc. and change the locks on me. She said to mark a separation date in my calendar, because this will be very important if we do D. She said its very important that I protect assets right now. WH took his 4-wheeler, but then gave me back mine, without the key or the title. He said it was in his name, even though it was a gift to me. He took more tools out of our shed and other expensive things in the garage. He is freaking right now... He already knows that I don't give a $hit about possessions, my only concern is my marriage.
The attorney also mentioned that it sounded as though he could be a pathological liar and sex addict. She said the only way I could keep him out would be to file an injunction if I had a fear for my safety or file for divorce and take possession of the house. I cannot afford all of the bills on my own and he knows that. I hope he continues to support with the bills as I stated in my letter.
WH took his 4-wheeler, but then gave me back mine, without the key or the title. He said it was in his name, even though it was a gift to me. .
This is winning you back? Lucky you were the Plan Aer and not him.
Originally Posted by starfish75
This is really hard! I spoke with another attorney today and she said that he could call a locksmith out while I'm at work, etc. and change the locks on me.
Legally, yes its his house. But practically - how? He wouldnt even be able to open the door for the locksmith to work on it because he wouldnt have the key.
Even if he did, you'd get your friends/family to go in and order him out. Try enjoy home comforts with that going on. Plus he has to go to work too. you would just change the locks all back and then put deadbolts on all the doors and windows as well to prevent him breaking in. Actually do this now if it makes you feel better. Install some home security he knows nothing about.
But really, I wouldnt worry. It's all a bunch of big talk. He is not remotely interested in breaking in while you are not there. Why? He's after YOU not the house. The house is just leverage to scare you into letting him in. He thinks he's a big shot liar and if he just manages to get some face time with you, he can talk you around. If he has to throw a tantrum about it being 'his house' to get time with you, he will.
What does he want? To come in and be comfortable? How while you dont want him there? Nope - he has no desire to break in to anything but your heart.
Originally Posted by starfish75
The attorney also mentioned that it sounded as though he could be a pathological liar and sex addict. She said the only way I could keep him out would be to file an injunction if I had a fear for my safety or file for divorce and take possession of the house. I cannot afford all of the bills on my own and he knows that. I hope he continues to support with the bills as I stated in my letter.
You need to secure your finances properly. Waywards are not to be trusted. Ask the lawyer whether you need to D or will a separation agreement do. Lots of people who dont want a D file for one in Plan B for legal or financial protection. If they recover they remarry or halt the D.
I just don't know what to do. I do want my marriage to work and I'm afraid of filing for divorce, because he will think its over for sure and maybe it is...
I'm losing my faith here rather quickly... I think he is taking advice from a lot of people to protect himself and I don't know what to do.
I know that I'm in Plan B, but a part of me wants to call him and tell him to spill the beans or I'm filing for divorce!!!!!!
Yes, that's your emotions talking. But threats don't ever really achieve their objective.
Plan B allows you to sit tight from a position where you can go either way. Plan B may require filing divorce to implement the separation; that does not mean that Plan B is necessarily a divorce. And on the other hand, people who are divorcing may very likely need Plan B anyway for their emotional health.
SF, I'm not sure what the legalities are, but I know you don't want a divorce and are not ready for a divorce so I'm not sure why YOU would file for divorce as has been suggested to you. In your letter you made it clear to him that you do NOT want a divorce, you only want the truth.
If I can be so bold, because this is what goes on in my head when I step into your shoes which is OH so easy for me...you are doing things in the hope that HE will react in the manner you want him to. Tell the truth. Use MB to rebuild. Live happily ever after. Every step you've taken has been with the idea in the back of your head that THIS would be the thing to catapult him to tell the truth and you both to start recovery. And it hasn't. You entered Plan B in a whirlwind as the last ditch effort to get the appropriate response out of him. Nope, still the most INappropriate response (took your ATV??? low). You need to stop thinking about him, what he thinks, what he thinks YOU think, what his plans are, what he thinks YOUR plans are... you just have to close it all out and start doing whats best for you. All this lawyer calling and lock changing is crazy and scary, it will pass and the dust will settle I imagine rather quickly. That is when your real work starts and his reckoning starts. If I understand PB correctly, you have to focus on the real reason for PB which is PERSONAL RECOVERY.
I know that I'm in Plan B, but a part of me wants to call him and tell him to spill the beans or I'm filing for divorce!!!!!!
Just kick back and ignore his drama. Dont' do anything or respond to anything until or unless there is a court order for you to let him in. He can't get in if he doesn't have a key. If he persists, have the attorney for file for divorce with possession of the house. Dont' let divorce scare you one bit, starfish! It is just a legal formality to protect you legally. Lots of folks file for divorce and then drop it when the WS meets the conditions of Plan B. And if your WH does not meet your conditions, then you are in a much better position to get divorced.
CALM DOWN. And don't listen to any more of the drama.
Worse case scenario, you might have to move out with your pets into your mothers. Hopefully, your H is not so much of a jerk that he would put you in that position.
SF, I'm not sure what the legalities are, but I know you don't want a divorce and are not ready for a divorce so I'm not sure why YOU would file for divorce as has been suggested to you. In your letter you made it clear to him that you do NOT want a divorce, you only want the truth.
The reason she would file is to protect herself legally, thats why. She may need legal protection. She can't go wrong if she files for divorce. If he complies with her PBL, she can drop it and if he doesn't, she will still have legal protection in place and will end up divorced if he doesn't comply.
Thank you guys! Everybody that knows me, knows that I do not want a divorce. This is soooooo hard!!!!! I'm going to try and take care of myself, as the tears are finally starting to fall from my eyes. Letting go is so hard..... I hate him for putting me and us through this, but I still love him too!
The attorney also mentioned that it sounded as though he could be a pathological liar and sex addict.
Dear Starfish:
Not to distract, but please IGNORE any non-qualified person (which includes any therapist who has not met and assessed your husband with his informed consent) who throws around pseudo-psychological terms. Google University is not an accredited institution.
There are many reasons why people lie. Fear, guilt, shame, a desire to maintain the status quo...right now, only your husband knows what he hopes to gain from lying.
Hold your boundaries, but do not let these "reasons" factor into any decision that you may make.
BV (carefully stepping down from the soap box so I don't twist my ankle)
Gut instinct and just reading his actions/reactions to things, he is just a different man now.
Just wanted to encourage you to follow through with that poly.
My STBX after dday 1+2 resisted poly and while we were at a MC session, "broke down" and told me "everything" and enthusiastically agreed to a poly. I didn't follow through because my gut told me he had revealed everything.
Not following through with that poly was probably my biggest mistake ~ because my STBX continued hiding his secret second life and basically led me into a 3+ year false recovery. Very painful and I would advise any BS to avoid this AT ALL COSTS.
The attorney also mentioned that it sounded as though he could be a pathological liar and sex addict.
Dear Starfish:
Not to distract, but please IGNORE any non-qualified person (which includes any therapist who has not met and assessed your husband with his informed consent) who throws around pseudo-psychological terms. Google University is not an accredited institution.
There are many reasons why people lie. Fear, guilt, shame, a desire to maintain the status quo...right now, only your husband knows what he hopes to gain from lying.
Hold your boundaries, but do not let these "reasons" factor into any decision that you may make.
BV (carefully stepping down from the soap box so I don't twist my ankle)
Gut instinct and just reading his actions/reactions to things, he is just a different man now.
Just wanted to encourage you to follow through with that poly.
My STBX after dday 1+2 resisted poly and while we were at a MC session, "broke down" and told me "everything" and enthusiastically agreed to a poly. I didn't follow through because my gut told me he had revealed everything.
Not following through with that poly was probably my biggest mistake ~ because my STBX continued hiding his secret second life and basically led me into a 3+ year false recovery. Very painful and I would advise any BS to avoid this AT ALL COSTS.
Always follow through with the poly!
Thank you SusieQ! I agree. I have always planned to do it eventually, was just being stubborn and trying to make him pay some small price for his actions. Even though the greatest price was probably mine for not confirming. I will talk to him about it tonight so we can get one set up.
Thank you guys! Everybody that knows me, knows that I do not want a divorce. This is soooooo hard!!!!! I'm going to try and take care of myself, as the tears are finally starting to fall from my eyes. [color:#0000] Letting go is so hard..... [/color]I hate him for putting me and us through this, but I still love him too!
You have nothing to lose as it is, starfish. Your H has wrecked your marriage with his secret second life and will continue if you don't stop him. You WANT to lose that marriage otherwise you are damning yourself to a death of a thousand cuts. You only gain if he makes a radical 180 degree change.
Your only chance of achieving that is to show him that you have rock solid boundaries and if he wants to get through the gates, he has to raise his standards very high. That is the message you need to send him.
Also, if he insists on getting into your house and won't respect your request for no contact, can you go stay with your mother? You could leave the dogs at your home and he could take care of them.
He is contacting my sister instead of my IM from here. Says he doesn't trust the IM and doesn't want to share personal information. Why does he have to be so difficult? He received our tax return and asked my sister to ask me how I would like to receive my half. I told her to tell him nothing... he will have to contact our IM that I set up.
Thank you guys! Everybody that knows me, knows that I do not want a divorce. This is soooooo hard!!!!! I'm going to try and take care of myself, as the tears are finally starting to fall from my eyes. [color:#0000] Letting go is so hard..... [/color]I hate him for putting me and us through this, but I still love him too!
You have nothing to lose as it is, starfish. Your H has wrecked your marriage with his secret second life and will continue if you don't stop him. You WANT to lose that marriage otherwise you are damning yourself to a death of a thousand cuts. You only gain if he makes a radical 180 degree change.
Your only chance of achieving that is to show him that you have rock solid boundaries and if he wants to get through the gates, he has to raise his standards very high. That is the message you need to send him.
Also, if he insists on getting into your house and won't respect your request for no contact, can you go stay with your mother? You could leave the dogs at your home and he could take care of them.
I could, but I don't want to... I want to be in my own bed...and comfortable in my own home. My mom doesn't have the room for me to stay... She and my sister live together and the third bedroom is an office.
He is contacting my sister instead of my IM from here. Says he doesn't trust the IM and doesn't want to share personal information. Why does he have to be so difficult? He received our tax return and asked my sister to ask me how I would like to receive my half. I told her to tell him nothing... he will have to contact our IM that I set up.
Please ask your sister not to tell you anything. Ask her to tell him that he knows how he can contact you and you will only accept communications that way.
It's not uncommon for a WS to avoid using the IM. Don't let him guide this. This is here to protect YOU.
Let your sister know that you love her, and you need her support offline, which is why you have chosen someone else to be your IM.
He is contacting my sister instead of my IM from here. Says he doesn't trust the IM and doesn't want to share personal information. Why does he have to be so difficult? He received our tax return and asked my sister to ask me how I would like to receive my half. I told her to tell him nothing... he will have to contact our IM that I set up.
Please ask your sister not to tell you anything. Ask her to tell him that he knows how he can contact you and you will only accept communications that way.
It's not uncommon for a WS to avoid using the IM. Don't let him guide this. This is here to protect YOU.
Let your sister know that you love her, and you need her support offline, which is why you have chosen someone else to be your IM.
Hang tough, it will get better.
This is how I responded to my sister:
Sister,
WH knows how he can contact me and I will only accept communications that way. �I love you and appreciate all of your support and this is why I have chosen another intermediary. �You are so many things to me and I don't want you to be involved in the logistics of all of this. �I am smart and doing what I think is right. �I need you as my sister and friend and I love you. �If you want to tell WH anything, just tell him that he knows how he can reach me, which is through the intermediary. �You don't need to be the middle man passing information... It's not your responsibility. �I love you!!!
Ensure that she doesn't tell you if he contacts her again.
These aree holes in your Plan B that need to be plugged up.
Outsiders(non-MBers) won't understand that you don't want to hear anything. Just explain, to anyone who tries to pass on any info, that you are trying to protect yourself from the pain. After a short while, you will show signs of healing and people around you will understand that you are doing the right thing.
Did you eat today? Do you exercise? What about writing a journal? And make sure you get some rest. Even if you can't sleep, try.
And make sure you stay away from watching or reading anything about affairs, and possibly even love stories for a bit.
You'll get through this hun, and you'll be feeling much more like yourself in no time.
Cry, scream, grieve. This is going to be the hardest time you have in Plan B. And every moment that you want to contact him, don't. Just remember what this pain feels like and know that any contact you have with him will cause you to go through this all over again. I know I couldn't do it more than I had to endure already. It's too painful. Now, those memories seem like they happened to someone else.
There ARE success stories on here. You can look them up and read read read. Take time to take care of yourself though. You need it.
Ensure that she doesn't tell you if he contacts her again.
These aree holes in your Plan B that need to be plugged up.
Outsiders(non-MBers) won't understand that you don't want to hear anything. Just explain, to anyone who tries to pass on any info, that you are trying to protect yourself from the pain. After a short while, you will show signs of healing and people around you will understand that you are doing the right thing.
Did you eat today? Do you exercise? What about writing a journal? And make sure you get some rest. Even if you can't sleep, try.
And make sure you stay away from watching or reading anything about affairs, and possibly even love stories for a bit.
You'll get through this hun, and you'll be feeling much more like yourself in no time.
Cry, scream, grieve. This is going to be the hardest time you have in Plan B. And every moment that you want to contact him, don't. Just remember what this pain feels like and know that any contact you have with him will cause you to go through this all over again. I know I couldn't do it more than I had to endure already. It's too painful. Now, those memories seem like they happened to someone else.
There ARE success stories on here. You can look them up and read read read. Take time to take care of yourself though. You need it.
Thank you for your kind words and encouragement. I did eat today and napped for an hour. I met my friend for some Sangria, chips and salsa. She didn't know anything, so I filled her in. Haven't seen her in a while, so it was nice to get out. Have the dogs with me outside right now and going to go to bed soon. I still haven't grieved yet... spoke with my IC about it this morning. Maybe I'm just being too strong and waiting till I know everything. She told me that it's ok and healthy to grieve about what I do know for a fact now. I really didn't realize my own strength through all of this until now.
I'm definitely staying away from the tv for the most part. I usually just listen to jazz...
WH is refusing to use my MB IM. He said we don't know her and he will not discuss any personal info or financial info with someone he doesn't know. He said he would be willing to use my sister and my sister is thinking about it and will let me know later. I'm starting a list of guidelines for her, in case she agrees.
So far, I have the following:
1. Do not express opinion about anything. For example: If he gets into a tirade about how immature I am for not speaking to him, etc., just pull out the pertinent information that should be passed on (if you can find one) and say, "Thank you for your email, I will let BW know that you will be dropping off a check at (location) on Wed. @ 1:00pm. Don't acknowledge the tirade and do not pass it on to me.
If there is nothing to pass on, politely say that "In accordance with BW's letter, this isn't something that can be passed on. If you have pertinent issues about the house or finances, I would be happy to pass that on."
2. Emails, texts, etc. sent to BW from WH:
I will forward any texts, emails, etc. directly to you that WH sends to me. Please respond to him that all messages that he sends to me are going unread, directly forwarded to you, then deleted. Remind him that all correspondence must go through you and only you, as you are the intermediary.
*Next I need to find a way to word how she cannot discuss or give information about one spouse to the other. Any ideas?
My sister was a temporary IM for a while before I got a proper plan in place, and while it was preferable to being exposed to him, it was better when I switched to an MBer.
If I hadnt had an MBer volunteer, I think I wopuld have used a more detached friend as opposed to someone he knew personally. The waywards feelings or comfort level dont matter in Plan B. They communicate with the IM or they dont get contact at all!
The main prob with using my sister was whenever I saw her, I could tell by her mood and demeanor 'how things were going'. It was also easier for him to scare her and shake her up than it was my MB IM who is pretty unshakeable and has heard it all before.
Even when she seemed ok, I was constantly scanning and judging her by what she said or didnt say, and guessing what might be happening.
When I got the MBer on board, that stopped for me and our family lost that source of tension.
You should also be prepared for him to next refuse using your sister as IM too. That is usually the next step in their campaign to get direct contact with you. What would the two of you do if he stopped talking to her too?
Good points Indie! He says because you are in the UK and he says he is concerned about fraud, etc. He doesn't agree with communicating with someone that we have never met in person.
I believe he has my sister and mom believing his concerns too and they also mentioned it to me this morning. I feel this is my plan and I should be able to make the calls. I didn't get to choose that he could have affairs.
They are valid concerns but he doesn't get to choose an IM.
If your IM is to coordinate child visitation there is no big top secret personal info to exchange (time schedules/names/activities are used). Financial stuff.....well, account numbers and SSN don't need to be given to IMs.
I don't see the oppurtunity for fraud there.
If an account number or SSN needs to be shared, perhaps he can tell IM that sis or his MIL will get that on a paper.
Really.
Your IM can send him an email telling him that she will not need anything that could be used for identity fraud from him. That she is the mode of communication about visitation and financial logistics and that account numbers and SSN are not needed by her.
When my sister was IM he told me to be more 'grown up' and communicate directly and that he wouldnt speak to my sister because she was pregnant.
Other Plan Bers have chosen IMs who were known to the WS and they were turned down because 'she never liked me' 'she takes your side' 'the IM wont treat me right, because of the exposure' or the more perfunct 'I dont wanna and you cant make me'.
Theres always a reason why the IM is unsuitable, is all I'm saying.
I find it funny that he is concerned about fraud. How can your IM turn the following sentence from him into fraud?
"I will comply with all her conditions in full" (!)
And he knows thats all he has to tell her for the IM is no longer needed.
You WANT him to hate using the IM. You want him to consider meeting your conditions so he doenst have to.
I would guess that after your sister becomes IM, and she refuses to pass on personal messages or listen to his tale of woe, she will become the next enemy who 'doesnt want to see us get back together after what Ive done'.
They ALWAYS refuse ANYBODY.
Only choose your sister as IM if you would rather have her do it for your own reasons.
Trying to choose one the WS likes is an impossible task.
The drunk is never going to like the bouncer who tells them they cant get in.
Your IM can send him an email telling him that she will not need anything that could be used for identity fraud from him. That she is the mode of communication about visitation and financial logistics and that account numbers and SSN are not needed by her.
Great idea. Any sensitive info should be written down and handed to a relative or mailed to Starfish. No problem telling him that.
I dont think it will make him like the IM any more though!
Not once has my IM handled sensitve info and she coordianted all the financial separation between us. All she would tell him is pay x bill on x day - or Indie will pay x bill from now on.
Even with kids in the picture, after we settled on a basic routine, I've barely used my IM, unless there are changes to the schedule, such as travel, etc.
The IM will not intermediate any legal issues, this will be done, when/if needed, by the attorneys...
When my sister was IM he told me to be more 'grown up' and communicate directly and that he wouldnt speak to my sister because she was pregnant.
Other Plan Bers have chosen IMs who were known to the WS and they were turned down because 'she never liked me' 'she takes your side' 'the IM wont treat me right, because of the exposure' or the more perfunct 'I dont wanna and you cant make me'.
Theres always a reason why the IM is unsuitable, is all I'm saying.
I find it funny that he is concerned about fraud. How can your IM turn the following sentence from him into fraud?
"I will comply with all her conditions in full" (!)
And he knows thats all he has to tell her for the IM is no longer needed.
You WANT him to hate using the IM. You want him to consider meeting your conditions so he doenst have to.
I would guess that after your sister becomes IM, and she refuses to pass on personal messages or listen to his tale of woe, she will become the next enemy who 'doesnt want to see us get back together after what Ive done'.
They ALWAYS refuse ANYBODY.
Only choose your sister as IM if you would rather have her do it for your own reasons.
Trying to choose one the WS likes is an impossible task.
The drunk is never going to like the bouncer who tells them they cant get in.
Indie: I'm sticking with you!!! I talked to my mom and sister and told them this is my decision. I asked my sister to not forward me any information from him and to tell him that he will need to contact the IM.
If he speaks to her again, she should just urge him to come clean.
"Starfish has left you a way to reach her. Just tell her IMwhen your ready to come clean. Star can talk to you herself when you come clean"
When he replies with "blah blah five per cent"
She should just say "OK, your choice" and then hang up/leave.
Telling her this is not very Plan B tho! Make this the last discussion you have and then no more talk of him, no matter what he says to her or what she hears.
Talk about fun sister stuff instead. His name is banned!!!!
I know I'm in Plan B now, but a thought just came to mind... Could there be a possibility that WH is protecting OW#1, until her divorce is finalized? She lives in MI and I'm not sure what the laws are there concerning adultery.
Also, working on setting up a new email address. Anybody here know if I can transfer all of my old emails/folders over easily? If I block WH, will he receive a bounce-back email?
I do not know of any way to send an entire file in one email. You could make a new email, forward all the content of your current folders into this new email - <subject matter folder name>, (then re organise the emails when they come in.)
This would probably not be a bad idea for you to do anyway
Also, if you are using homtmail, you can link two email addresses if you look to the upper left hand corner (they both must be msn, tho.
Very possible. But you exposed to him didn't you? He was also very savvy (I thought) and waywards are dumb. You did your best by him.
The best way to get the truth out now is by what you are doing.
Yes, I did expose to OW#1's husband. I didn't tell him about the ILY exchanges between the two of them though. Thought I should wait for more info. What do you think?
There is nothing in MI that she needs to hide from legally, with respect to adultery. We don't have alienation of affection, and adultery per se isn't a custody factor.
Very possible. But you exposed to him didn't you? He was also very savvy (I thought) and waywards are dumb. You did your best by him.
The best way to get the truth out now is by what you are doing.
Yes, I did expose to OW#1's husband. I didn't tell him about the ILY exchanges between the two of them though. Thought I should wait for more info. What do you think?
I don't think that would help him legally anyway. You probably need hard proof of sex having taken place to file for adultery.
Going to a Buddhist function with my sister tonight. I've never been to anything like this before, so I'll let you all know what I think later. Hoping it will help my anxiety. Afterwards, I might go home for a good cry... I feel it coming. I really need to get this crap out of my system!
I think I started my crying after he began using the IM. You feel this huge relief, you put down your battle sword and the glaze of shock that kept the wounds from hurting goes away.
Its very hard. I was reading that part of my thread again today and even the memory of the pain made me teary. But the grieving is a good thing. Its the end of being lied to and the start of good things to come.
Meditation is an amazing idea! It will help with so many things: sleep, anxiety, persistent thoughts....
After showing the worlds best Plan A are you going to dazzle in Plan B too????!
I know I'm in Plan B now, but a thought just came to mind... Could there be a possibility that WH is protecting OW#1, until her divorce is finalized? She lives in MI and I'm not sure what the laws are there concerning adultery.
I have always thought he was protecting OW#1. Adultery is illegal in Michigan but it is never prosecuted.
I think I started my crying after he began using the IM. You feel this huge relief, you put down your battle sword and the glaze of shock that kept the wounds from hurting goes away.
Its very hard. I was reading that part of my thread again today and even the memory of the pain made me teary. But the grieving is a good thing. Its the end of being lied to and the start of good things to come.
Meditation is an amazing idea! It will help with so many things: sleep, anxiety, persistent thoughts....
After showing the worlds best Plan A are you going to dazzle in Plan B too????!
I think it was too much meditation and chanting. It lasted three hours. My anxiety is out of control right now!!! The pains in my stomach are tremendous...This sucks!!!
I sure hope I do well with Plan B. I cried a little bit to my sister before the class... I wish I could get it all out just like I wish WH could get all the truth out. I feel full from all of his $hit! I just want a release from this pain and don't know what to do... I hurt soooo bad right now!!!
Let it happen. However it is supposed to happen, it will.
You are a rockstar. In the future, we will be pointing to you as to what to do in Plan A and Plan B. You will be a MB success.
In the first days of PB, all you can do is ensure you don't contact your WH that minute. Then, you won't contact him for that hour. Before you know it, you haven't even thought about contacting him all day.
As long as you are ensuring NC with your WH you are a Plan B rockstar. Keep it up.
Yoga helped me - granted I haven't gone through the what you are going through, but with grief in general. I had a very dear friend who owned the house we shared (she had an attic apartment we rented, and she lived on the main floor) drop dead of a heart attack in the main kitchen on a Monday morning.
Yoga helped me release a lot of my pent up issues. For a long time I would cry in some poses, and still do, but it's more rare. Yoga was much healthier than breaking coffee cups, which I also did a lot of last summer.
Glad to see things are going okay for you and WH is using the IM.
Yoga helped me - granted I haven't gone through the what you are going through, but with grief in general. I had a very dear friend who owned the house we shared (she had an attic apartment we rented, and she lived on the main floor) drop dead of a heart attack in the main kitchen on a Monday morning.
Yoga helped me release a lot of my pent up issues. For a long time I would cry in some poses, and still do, but it's more rare. Yoga was much healthier than breaking coffee cups, which I also did a lot of last summer.
Glad to see things are going okay for you and WH is using the IM.
Thank you for sharing and for the tips to help anxiety. Before I found out about affairs, I was going to yoga twice a week. I really need to get back... It definitely helped me a lot!
Let it happen. However it is supposed to happen, it will.
You are a rockstar. In the future, we will be pointing to you as to what to do in Plan A and Plan B. You will be a MB success.
In the first days of PB, all you can do is ensure you don't contact your WH that minute. Then, you won't contact him for that hour. Before you know it, you haven't even thought about contacting him all day.
As long as you are ensuring NC with your WH you are a Plan B rockstar. Keep it up.
I'm trying my best! Thank you for the compliments... I owe everything to all of you for your guidance and support. I couldn't have done what I have done this far without all of you. I wouldn't have known about OW#2 had I not changed the wording of my questions to "any other woman". That is how I finally got the truth (somewhat about her). I'm still hoping that he comes clean someday soon. His birthday is in 10 days and our anniversary is in 24 days (5 years), so this month is going to be very difficult for me!
Thank you for sharing and for the tips to help anxiety. Before I found out about affairs, I was going to yoga twice a week. I really need to get back... It definitely helped me a lot!
I have a really good Yoga DVD from Costco I do at home right now, but I miss going to Yoga class. Anxiety just sucks the life out of you if you're not careful.
I've also tried some herbs - St Johns Wort, Valerian in the evenings. Last year I was on Ativan for a while for anxiety, and for a short term solution it really helped me.
Thank you for sharing and for the tips to help anxiety. Before I found out about affairs, I was going to yoga twice a week. I really need to get back... It definitely helped me a lot!
I have a really good Yoga DVD from Costco I do at home right now, but I miss going to Yoga class. Anxiety just sucks the life out of you if you're not careful.
I've also tried some herbs - St Johns Wort, Valerian in the evenings. Last year I was on Ativan for a while for anxiety, and for a short term solution it really helped me.
Saw my doctor this morning. She prescribed me a AD and Xanax 3 weeks ago. I've been nervous about taking the AD and only taking the X as needed (usually first thing in the morning). She advised me to start taking the AD and to revisit her in 3 weeks. She said so far everybody is doing well with this particular drug and no side effects. I like to have a glass or two of red wine every now and then, so I was nervous about taking it.
I have been on two different ADs, Elavil and one I can't recall last year. Neither were a good fit for me, but they didn't have any crazy side effects either. I gained a few pounds on one, and the Elavil was supposed to control my migraines and be an AD for me. It did work as an AD, but did nothing for my migraines.
Two of my medications come with really hefty 'do not drink and take this medication warnings', but once I knew how I reacted to them I would have a drink or two while I'm on them. Since one is a daily migraine preventitive... it's either abstain when I'm on it or drink anyway. However, some drugs, like tylenol, really don't play well with alcohol and should be avoided at all costs when drinking, your pharamcist can usually tell you more information.
Thank you for sharing and for the tips to help anxiety. Before I found out about affairs, I was going to yoga twice a week. I really need to get back... It definitely helped me a lot!
I have a really good Yoga DVD from Costco I do at home right now, but I miss going to Yoga class. Anxiety just sucks the life out of you if you're not careful.
I've also tried some herbs - St Johns Wort, Valerian in the evenings. Last year I was on Ativan for a while for anxiety, and for a short term solution it really helped me.
Saw my doctor this morning. She prescribed me a AD and Xanax 3 weeks ago. I've been nervous about taking the AD and only taking the X as needed (usually first thing in the morning). She advised me to start taking the AD and to revisit her in 3 weeks. She said so far everybody is doing well with this particular drug and no side effects. I like to have a glass or two of red wine every now and then, so I was nervous about taking it.
Star, take the AD's as prescribed. Xanax is good, but the long term benefits of something like Lexapro are even better. It takes a while to get your system used to it, but in conjunction with Xanax, it can do wonders for your mental health. Also, don't for one second feel ashamed for taking these drugs. They are there to help you, and they will. Trust me on this one.
A glass or two of wine won't hurt you at all. Of course, once you start taking these drugs properly, I doubt you will see the bottom of your second glass of wine.
Thank you for sharing and for the tips to help anxiety. Before I found out about affairs, I was going to yoga twice a week. I really need to get back... It definitely helped me a lot!
I have a really good Yoga DVD from Costco I do at home right now, but I miss going to Yoga class. Anxiety just sucks the life out of you if you're not careful.
I've also tried some herbs - St Johns Wort, Valerian in the evenings. Last year I was on Ativan for a while for anxiety, and for a short term solution it really helped me.
Saw my doctor this morning. She prescribed me a AD and Xanax 3 weeks ago. I've been nervous about taking the AD and only taking the X as needed (usually first thing in the morning). She advised me to start taking the AD and to revisit her in 3 weeks. She said so far everybody is doing well with this particular drug and no side effects. I like to have a glass or two of red wine every now and then, so I was nervous about taking it.
Star, take the AD's as prescribed. Xanax is good, but the long term benefits of something like Lexapro are even better. It takes a while to get your system used to it, but in conjunction with Xanax, it can do wonders for your mental health. Also, don't for one second feel ashamed for taking these drugs. They are there to help you, and they will. Trust me on this one.
A glass or two of wine won't hurt you at all. Of course, once you start taking these drugs properly, I doubt you will see the bottom of your second glass of wine.
Thank you! Yes, I would agree that I'm trying to tough it out and I shouldn't be. I should be doing what my doctor recommends as she knows the state I'm in right now. After going through infertility treatments, drugs with major side effects and shooting myself in the stomach with infertility drugs, I would think that taking a simple AD pill would be so easy, but it's not. I guess because I wanted a baby so bad that I would've done anything, so I was happy to take the meds. I don't believe I'm trying to punish myself by any means now, but this isnt something that I chose, so I'm having a hard time. I know I need to take care of me right now, but all I keep wishing is that I could wake up from this horrible nightmare. The perfect marriage and life I had is gone now... I will do my best to start my AD tomorrow, as I know I am going to need it. I just hope it doesn't numb me to much where I just don't give a $hit anymore, but maybe that's what I need right now...
Mine did not numb me last summer where I didn't care. They made it where I could function. Ultimately, for me, I couldn't find something that didn't interact with my migraine meds, and I'd rather be a depressed psycho witch with no migraines as a happy woman with migraines. I ended up staying on the Ativan for a little while, though.
The infertility treatments themselves are enough to cause depression, not to mention everything else you're going through.
Last summer I got to a point I could not function, I did not sleep for weeks (even with the medication), and I came really close to a nervous breakdown. I did end up with pneumonia, in the hospital, very ill. I wish I had done somethings different and pursued ADs and gotten off the Topomax (causes depression and anxiety), because I went through hell for a few months. It was not a pretty site.
Hugs to you, and I'm sure you'll come through this stronger. You're an amazing woman.
Mine did not numb me last summer where I didn't care. They made it where I could function. Ultimately, for me, I couldn't find something that didn't interact with my migraine meds, and I'd rather be a depressed psycho witch with no migraines as a happy woman with migraines. I ended up staying on the Ativan for a little while, though.
The infertility treatments themselves are enough to cause depression, not to mention everything else you're going through.
Last summer I got to a point I could not function, I did not sleep for weeks (even with the medication), and I came really close to a nervous breakdown. I did end up with pneumonia, in the hospital, very ill. I wish I had done somethings different and pursued ADs and gotten off the Topomax (causes depression and anxiety), because I went through hell for a few months. It was not a pretty site.
Hugs to you, and I'm sure you'll come through this stronger. You're an amazing woman.
I used to take Topomax too, but quit a few months before trying to conceive, because it can cause birth defects. I was so worried about mixing anything with that drug. It had a lot of side effects. I'm glad that I'm not on it anymore.... The only good side effect was weight loss! lol...
I understand the stigma of AD's, I just don't agree with it. When you aren't well, you take medicine to make you better. Right now, you're emotions aren't well, so take something to get them better. It's not going to be a forever thing. You wouldn't shun someone who had to take insulin because they were diabetic right?
I should have taken AD's when I was in Plan A, but I was so far gone that I didn't even know how messed up I was until months into PB.
If you remain in Plan B, and stay NC with your WH, you will feel better in a few weeks. The AD's will help you take the sting off.
How are you this morning? Did you get any sleep? Did you eat okay?
I understand the stigma of AD's, I just don't agree with it. When you aren't well, you take medicine to make you better. Right now, you're emotions aren't well, so take something to get them better. It's not going to be a forever thing. You wouldn't shun someone who had to take insulin because they were diabetic right?
I should have taken AD's when I was in Plan A, but I was so far gone that I didn't even know how messed up I was until months into PB.
If you remain in Plan B, and stay NC with your WH, you will feel better in a few weeks. The AD's will help you take the sting off.
How are you this morning? Did you get any sleep? Did you eat okay?
Yes, I slept well. Woke up from a dream once or twice in the night, but I feel that I got enough sleep. Haven't eaten yet, but I will. It's hard for me to eat when I first wake up.
There are lots of studies that show but for all but severe depression- anti depressants don't work above placebo level. The situation you are in is stressful and anxiety producing. And you are handling it beautifully so far. Everyone on here is so proud of you.
So medication or not- try and get exercise, eat clean and healthfully, and rest as much as you can.
There are lots of studies that show but for all but severe depression- anti depressants don't work above placebo level. The situation you are in is stressful and anxiety producing. And you are handling it beautifully so far. Everyone on here is so proud of you.
So medication or not- try and get exercise, eat clean and healthfully, and rest as much as you can.
There are lots of studies that show but for all but severe depression- anti depressants don't work above placebo level. The situation you are in is stressful and anxiety producing. And you are handling it beautifully so far. Everyone on here is so proud of you.
So medication or not- try and get exercise, eat clean and healthfully, and rest as much as you can.
( the science geek in me has to post this. I just want everyone to have as much information as possible)
WOW, I just forwarded this to Dr Harley. I am so not surprised, though! I have studied nutrition for years and never cease to be amazed at how drug company interests and political correctness override the truth.
It gets even more interesting when researching serotonin levels and depression/anxiety! The very thing these drugs are supposed to work on. Turns out? Not a causation in depression. Wild stuff- and we have absolutely been sold a bill of goods by big pharma.
I am glad you forwarded it to him. It is absolutely eye-opening!
Ridicsit, in my personal experience with anti-depressants, they did absolutely nothing. I just felt like a robot for a year. I don't even remember that year. The difference came when I switched to omega 3 oil.
But how is taking a med with no efficacy above placebo for the vast majority of people useful? They aren't, for the vast majority of people- helping us see the possibilities. Our own brains are doing that simply by the suggestion that with this medicine on board we can. See the difference?
That's all I am saying. For people with severe depression and anxiety- they show a slight response above placebo . For everyone else- they are, to paraphrase the article, like " expensive tic tacs".
There are other ways to have forward motion and progress- instead of using medication that a) does not act on the proper mechanism for mood control and b) doesn't work above placebo for most.
I totally understand wanting to do something, to take medication- to do anything that gives forward motion. I have struggled with OCD, anxiety , and the giant mess of his affair. I wish AD's did as they were supposed to.
But research shows that talk therapy is the most effective route - and so is exercise, rest, and nutrition.
I am not in anyway belittling or minimizing how hard these things we face are- but we have to pay attention to the evidence. On here, at MB- isn't that what we say all the time? Evidence. Believe what we can verify? On the issue of AD's- the evidence is there , and it's telling us something different than what we are used to hearing- but it is not making it any less true. For situational depression and anxiety- antidepressants by and large are not useful.
Knowledge is power. and power propels us forward.
( There are many other resources on this subject- I am happy to provide them, if people are interested)
They are not for feeling happy as much as for not feeling stuck in a negative trap.
Using them, according to Dr. Harley, helps a person to be able to see opportunities for positive change vs being not open to seeing them.
The purpose is to eliminate depression. Depression makes one feel stuck and the point is that the pills don't make a difference.
Dr Harley only has access to the studies he has seen on anti-depressants and has made conclusions based on that. I sent him the article and will let you know what he says.
There are other ways to have forward motion and progress- instead of using medication that a) does not act on the proper mechanism for mood control and b) doesn't work above placebo for most.
Ridicsit, as a person who was chronically depressed for most of my life, I found no relief in Paxil, but great relief in natural remedies. Even when my life crashed and burned in 1999, I did not experience depression. I am not dismissing the fact that some people do find relief, though. I found a better solution with omega 3. There are studies that actually show that it is a depression remedy.
I agree- there is a small group of people who are helped by the meds- it just isn't as broad as we have been taught. I do not mean in any way to diminish that.
Personally- I use omegas and D for help with the issues I face, along with exercise and a careful diet. The crushing feeling of the elephant on my chest- I have not had that in a long, long time. It's wonderful.
Just wanted to chime in here. My family has a long history of problems with depression, even suicide. My experience has been that without ADs, I am nearly non-functional. With them, I can function and once in a while even feel happy. I've tried going off them and ended up very bad again. Similar things have occurred with family members.
My theory is that severe clinical depression often has a genetic component and ADs can help many of these ppl. For less severe depression, and for situational depression (though it may feel very severe for a time), possibly ADs have little if any effect. Herbal therapies (i.e. St. Johns Wort), diet and exercise etc may be enough here. I am obviously simplifying a very complicated subject, but that is what I have found. I also happen to be a helping professional and have observed similar responses in patients.
Ridicsit, in my personal experience with anti-depressants, they did absolutely nothing. I just felt like a robot for a year. I don't even remember that year. The difference came when I switched to omega 3 oil.
Don't really post much, but I had to agree with you here. I suffer from panic attacks and was prescribed ADs years ago, and all they did was make me have dreams about killing my dog. Yikes!
I've found using supplements, such as B12, fatty acids, and coconut oil (all brain boosting/building acids and vitamins) do WONDERS for my panic attacks. I recently got married and I got a little depressed before the wedding due to stress and an increase in panic attacks. Continued use of the the coconut oil really seems to help.
Whatever works for you, make sure you are eating right and getting plenty of rest during this stressful time, StarFish! Good luck to you!
Ok, I know this is not what I was supposed to be doing today... My sister wanted to know what she owed for her portion of the phone bill, so I was looking it up for her and got the info. Curiosity got the best of me and I checked WH's calls, etc. and noticed that he had a 40 minute conversation with a local woman. I found her address online, but haven't been able to find out anything else about her. Please don't scold me... I couldn't help it and now I'm wondering who this woman is...???
You're in a very dangerous part of your Plan B. Youre tempted to check stuff, but if you give in, that's never where it ends. If you see something then it makes you want to investigate further!
But since you have seen this and it is quite naturally making you crazy, you did right in coming here to vent/discuss it rather than breaking your plan.
So lets discuss:
Is it a house phone number? Could she be a business contact such as a lawyer or accountant? Usually professionals like that can be googled.
You're in a very dangerous part of your Plan B. Youre tempted to check stuff, but if you give in, that's never where it ends. If you see something then it makes you want to investigate further!
But since you have seen this and it is quite naturally making you crazy, you did right in coming here to vent/discuss it rather than breaking your plan.
So lets discuss:
Is it a house phone number? Could she be a business contact such as a lawyer or accountant? Usually professionals like that can be googled.
It is a home number and she lives in a condo. This is all I know. I have her full name, but don't believe she is an attorney or accountant because I already checked Google for all of that.
Nothing has really changed. You knew when he failed the poly that he has secrets and that you wouldnt know what those secrets were until he agreed to be truthful.
Now this woman could be his mother's friend who he is helping plan a party for her. He could be friends with this womans boyfriend and was calling him at her house.
Or she could be another affair. She could be part of the rock bottom he is heading towards.
You dont know. Exactly like you didnt know yesterday.
Information like this will tempt you beyond your strength to break Plan B. However strong we are the strongest of us put temptation out of reach.
Recognise the harm you have done to yourself by peeking out of your plan.
Recognise it and go darker.
It is all about YOU now. Not him. You have cut him loose now to figure his own mess out.
The boat was supposed to be selling this week. 40 minutes is a long time to discuss a boat...
Yes it is. But he has poor boundaries and prob chats to women far longer than he needs to. Which doesnt necessarily mean she wasnt dying to get off the phone or that he meant to seriously pursue her.
Also if she was a friend of a friend enquiring about the boat, they might have started talking about said friend.
Counselor...attorney...bank? Oftentimes businesses are in an individuals name Our big bank is that way...it scared the crap out of me until I googled it a little more. Buuuut...you shouldn't know who he is calling!
Oh I know. It is MASSIVELY hard. That is why you MUST NOT SNOOP!!!!!!!
Now you've discovered a temptation, star Plan Ber, how are you going to neutralize this temptation? Can you make it so its impossible to check his bill? Get a friend to change the password/pin etc so you dont know it?
I do know how hard it is. When I went into Plan B, I had no idea if the exposure and my Plan B had stunted the affair. One day I took a strange company car home, driving right past the OWs house when I got this huge urge to snoop, because she wouldnt recognise my car. I wanted to see if his car was parked outside.
Somehow I resisted, and I'm glad I did. If I'd seen his car there, what difference would that make? None except to my own pain. From then on, I only drove my own brightly hued car which glows in the dark. Temptation gone.
Just some food for thought, Starfish. This trigger has set your withdrawal back to day one. Every 'what he is doing/thinking/feeling in present day life' trigger does. So you have to start your healing again.
Now thats not a disaster, because you havent been in your plan long, So starting again is doable. You havent lost much time.
But you arent going to want to restart healing every few days are you?
Just some food for thought, Starfish. This trigger has set your withdrawal back to day one. Every 'what he is doing/thinking/feeling in present day life' trigger does. So you have to start your healing again.
Now thats not a disaster, because you havent been in your plan long, So starting again is doable. You havent lost much time.
But you arent going to want to restart healing every few days are you?
No, I'll try my best to do better and focus on myself!
How do you think you can block the temptation to check his calls again? That isnt going to go away and you will give in again.
If I hadnt blocked my WH on Facebook I would have checked that page MANY many times during my low points.
I will get myself back on track and start getting out more. My friends have been asking me to do things and I really need to get out and start living, so I'm not thinking about things and focusing on myself.
That will only work short-term. There will absolutely be low days where you wont have the strength to be strong and not look. While you are strong, make sure you are locked out from checking it when you go weak.
That will only work short-term. There will absolutely be low days where you wont have the strength to be strong and not look. While you are strong, make sure you are locked out from checking it when you go weak.
Can you change it so you dont have access?
Yes, I'll ask my sister to handle it herself next time and change the password.
Star, this slip isn't as bad as it could have been but it could cause you to break NC with him. As Indie also pointed out, this causes you to go through withdrawal over and over again. Remove the temptation.
The cell phone is already a problem. If your sister wanted to know what she had to pay, she could have looked it up herself, no?
Be honest, there was a small part of you that really wanted to check up on him. Then, you did, and you then started to research who the number belongs to.
There is one reality that you deal with, as I deal with. Your WH isn't home today, and he isn't trying to reconcile with you. Every morning, in my early days of recovery, I looked over at the empty side of my bed and determined that my reality was that I was alone, so I dealt with that. It takes time, and it's done by baby steps at first.
It's good that you confessed to this breach of Plan B. So, now, you figure out how you are going to fix it.
Star, this slip isn't as bad as it could have been but it could cause you to break NC with him. As Indie also pointed out, this causes you to go through withdrawal over and over again. Remove the temptation.
The cell phone is already a problem. If your sister wanted to know what she had to pay, she could have looked it up herself, no?
Be honest, there was a small part of you that really wanted to check up on him. Then, you did, and you then started to research who the number belongs to.
There is one reality that you deal with, as I deal with. Your WH isn't home today, and he isn't trying to reconcile with you. Every morning, in my early days of recovery, I looked over at the empty side of my bed and determined that my reality was that I was alone, so I dealt with that. It takes time, and it's done by baby steps at first.
It's good that you confessed to this breach of Plan B. So, now, you figure out how you are going to fix it.
I still miss him so much... This is so hard, but I promise myself I will not break! It has only been 3 days and I know I need to be focusing on myself. I still haven't grieved yet and my love bank is semi-full. I love him and this is so hard!!!! I know I can't force him to do anything. I just hope and pray that I mean enough to him that he he can tell me the truth someday soon. I guess I'm feeling a little sorry for myself tonight and wondering what went wrong.... Why am I here? Why did this happen to me? I need to cry oh so bad... I need to let this pain go and it is so hard!!!!
That is actually a good sign, that you still feel for him. Plan B protects that love, by staying dark. Just remember that--
Should he come out of the fog, your LB will be intact.
This is just so painful! I took a short nap this afternoon, but this evening my thoughts are filled with all of the good times we had and it just sucks how he could jeopardize and throw away our lives for bimbos! I don't think I'll ever understand!
That is actually a good sign, that you still feel for him. Plan B protects that love, by staying dark. Just remember that--
Should he come out of the fog, your LB will be intact.
I agree, it's a very good sign.
Star, ask yourself this question:
How much of my LB would be still be there weeks/months down the road if I allowed this to continue with his lies and deceit?
Well, there would be little, if any, left at all. We all know that, and I do believe that you do as well. If you didn't, you wouldn't have taken the advice offered here on this board.
Okay, you wanna cry? Then please do!!! Let it out! There's no shame in that and certainly not an indication of a person that's weak. You have shown us all a strength to be admired. You should be proud of that. God knows I'm proud of you!
Go beat up a pillow. Go kick something semi-soft. Go break something (I wouldn't recommend going all-out Godfather on this one but that's your choice).
Here you go, put one of his old shirts on an old teddy bear and beat the hell out of it!
I have NO idea how to help you here with this part of it. This is better left to the ladies. But, honey, if you feel like crying, then cry.
There will never come a time when crying over being betrayed is shameful or weak. It's human nature.
Thank you for all the ideas and support!!! I honestly didnt know I possessed so much strength... I know I have so many of you to think for it though....
I honestly didnt know I possessed so much strength... I know I have so many of you to think for it though....
You had it right on the first part of this sentence, but oh so wrong on the second part.
No one here has provided you with any strength whatsoever. We can't do that. All we can do, as a group, is lead you to a path to follow. It's entirely up to you and YOUR strength to follow that path.
And you have done that admirably. You are in my thoughts and prayers daily, and will continue to be.
Star, I am in Plan B still. I have a timeline for when I would be financially able to file for a D, but I haven't stated it on this forum, in case I want to start Plan D sooner. Thing is, as long as my WH continues his affair with OW, I will have No Contact with him. That could be until death(Sound familiar, Hehehe?).
Really, all you need to concern yourself with this moment(because in the beginning, it is just as far ahead as you can look), is No Contact in any way, and taking care of yourself.
Star, I am in Plan B still. I have a timeline for when I would be financially able to file for a D, but I haven't stated it on this forum, in case I want to start Plan D sooner. Thing is, as long as my WH continues his affair with OW, I will have No Contact with him. That could be until death(Sound familiar, Hehehe?).
Really, all you need to concern yourself with this moment(because in the beginning, it is just as far ahead as you can look), is No Contact in any way, and taking care of yourself.
Indie: He is expecting me to pay 1/2 of all the bills, yet he makes twice as much as I do and right now (because I'm on leave) I'm only making 50% of what I normally make. I believe he also sold our boat. There was money that was invested in it from the boat he had before we started dating, but I believe the rest of the money came out of our joint account. Not sure what to do about this... Any ideas?
All waywards take it beyond a joke when it comes to money, Im not sure why but they do seem to all follow the same script. That's why Dr Harley says to waste no time in getting legal advice.
He may have or it may have fallen through. Its likely to be an asset that your lawyers will have to divvy up.
He is unlikely to volunteer it because he's hoping you will come looking for him to ask!
You could of course make an IM request that he meet a greater share of the bills etc. But I would get a lawyer lined up to ask what you should do if he lets you down.
She can ask an attorney about how to get support in her state.
I think, most states, even those without official legal separations have options other than filing for a divorce.
The attorneys know what to file for.
He probably isn't a good candidate for an informal arrangement. If they have assets.....he has shown that he is willing to go to great lengths to keep info to himself.
Our dogs just thought they heard WH's truck and got so excited.... Then, they realized it wasn't him... . Poor babies... They feel the pain and anxiety too.
There is no such thing as LS in Canada either, what we do have is Separation Agreements. These can be drawn up by the 2 parties involved(if they agree) or they go to court. Maybe there is something like that in FL?
In the beginning of Plan B "I" thought I heard my WH's vehicle, many many times. I understand your poor puppies' angst.
You definitely need to get legal advice. I know that many states have spousal support(alimony) even when there are no children in the marriage.
Venting here... Plan B sucks!!!! I miss my husband and I miss my life! Why oh why can't he just come clean??? This is really pissing me off!!! Ok, vent over for now... going to take a nap!
Venting here... Plan B sucks!!!! I miss my husband and I miss my life! Why oh why can't he just come clean??? This is really pissing me off!!! Ok, vent over for now... going to take a nap!
Vent away darling. Sweet dreams. May they be WH free.
The one thing that I thought about was how if I were to contact my WH, I would have to go through that withdrawal all over again, and I didn't want the hurt that I had already gone through to happen again, or be for nothing. Ya know?
It's been 4 1/2 days and this is soooo hard!!! It just pisses me off how a person can be so selfish! I'm going to get out of the house for a bit... Maybe try and catch a sunset or something.
I broke Plan B last night and called WH to talk. I asked him to come over to talk to me. We spent most of the night talking, before falling asleep for a few hours.
He hadn't shown complete remorse for everything until this morning. He was crying and telling me that he could see the pain in my eyes and knew he was the cause of it all and that I didn't deserve a thing he has put me through. He told me a lot of other things too and I do believe that he is truly remorseful.
I have some thinking to do about where I want to go from here... I just wanted to share what happened last night.
And, he isn't coming back into the house and he knows that. He knows I need my space and agrees that I should do whatever it is that I need to do for myself. He said that he hopes I can forgive him someday, but he is willing to do whatever it takes to earn back my trust and prove to me that he is fully committed to the marriage. I didn't respond... Just listened.
He hadn't shown complete remorse for everything until this morning. He was crying and telling me that he could see the pain in my eyes and knew he was the cause of it all and that I didn't deserve a thing he has put me through. He told me a lot of other things too and I do believe that he is truly remorseful. .
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ok, true remorse is more than talk, it is action. Did he confess the full truth? Did he agree to take the polygraph to prove he is being truthful? Otherwise, this is just more talk.
I have been thinking about things... the things I truly want. I do feel like it could be 2 or 20 women and I would feel the same. The EA with OW#1 was enough for him to betray his vows. I've also thought about all of the painful details that he revealed with OW#2, which has shocked both myself, family and friends with how candid he was with all of the details. I've thought about the other truths that came to light after the poly, which was an exchange of ILY's with OW#1 and thoughts of having sex with her again. I am leaning towards it actually being an EA with OW#1 and even if there was more, would it really matter to me at this point? Do I really want to torture myself with more details? I actually wish I could erase the details from my mind that he revealed that happened between him and OW #2.
I've been seeking all of the details, truth for so long, but now I'm not so sure that this is as important to me as I originally thought. I've also wondered if he could have failed the poly due to thoughts that he had, but I'm not sure. I'm not really sure about what I really do or do not want to know at this point. I'm not sure that it would benefit me either way. It would be painful either way and he knows he screwed up.
As far as him showing remorse... I did feel like he was truly remorseful with his words this morning. I didn't feel that before. He did cancel plans that he had with friends today to do whatever I wanted, so we took our dogs to the park for a picnic. We didn't talk about the M or anything, but it was nice just to spend time together. Actions speak louder than words and I don't believe that this is going to happen overnight and we both realize it's going to take a lot of work on both of our parts. I'm just not quite ready for him to be back full-time and I do need to take care of myself and truly figure out what it is that I want and if I feel that I can move forward... I wonder if I'll ever truly be able to trust him again. He understands that I need time and the choices are mine right now. I'm doing a lot of praying and asking God to guide me.
Truth is very important. There can be no recovery without it. Your H is still lying. It sounds as though you are ready to "settle" for something less than a recovered marriage.
Starfish it is up to you how many fine details you want, etc but I really can't believe you are willing to overlook entire affairs.
Before the pain of withdrawal began to bite, you were dead set on getting the full truth.
How will your marriage ever recover if there are possibly OW still in your life. How can you know whether there is one among your neighbours or cowrkers if you allow those secrets?
How will you change the conditions which caused his affairs, if you don't know what they are? The alcoholic still gets to keep some of his booze hidden, but you don't think he will slip again?
Everything you have asked of him is EASY. Just tell the full truth and pass a poly. EASY. Yet he still won't.
I know the pain of withdrawal is very, very hard.
But it pales in comparison to the pain of a false recovery.
Its a shame because your plans were going so well, and if you settle for Plan C and a FR now you'll never know how successful it could have been.
I can almost hear a "gotcha." Plan B, remember. If you truly go to Plan B, the pain won't last forever and your marriage isn't gone forever, either. Steel yourself again to get through to the other side of Plan B. Don't allow the truth to be buried.
starfish, I so wish I could feel happy for you, but I can't. I have nothing but fear for you because I know where you are headed. You are trying so hard to just bury this without getting the truth in the hopes that your marriage can survive without the truth. But it can't. I so wish it could. But truth has to be the first step.
You won't be able to sweep this under the rug for long. You will wonder every day what he is lying about. And your resentment and anger will grow and grow. You won't be able to sweep it all away.
Without it you will go crazy wondering. You hope you can suck it up and live without it, but you won't be able to. The reason is because trust can never be restored as long as he has secrets with the OW to which you are not privy.
And no, he is not remorseful. If he were remorseful, it would be backed up by actions, not by drama. Any halfwit wayward knows how to cry and carry on about how sorry they are. But how "remorseful" is someone who continues to lie? They are not remorseful at all.
I am sad for you today because I know this will not turn out good.
What could the coaching center do for me right now?
Of course I don't want a FR... In fact, I'm not even sure what I want right now. Of course I miss my WH and our marriage, but I don't really know what I truly want right now. I definitely don't want to go back to the type of marriage we had before and I don't believe either of us do, but I'm just not sure what I do want.
I'm not going to settle, but I'm also not saying that I'm fully committed to recovery myself yet. WH knows that I expect to know all of the truth about major things. Had a talk with him tonight and he said he will do what it takes and is working on doing all the things that I need for recovery by being honest with me. He understands the importance and said its going to take baby steps. I don't believe he is wanting to drag things out, but I do believe that we both have a lot of things that we need to work on ourselves before we can work on each other or our marriage. My feet are planted, but I'm not really sure who I am right now or what I truly want. I feel like I lost a big piece of myself along the way and I need to find Starfish again and figure out what she really likes and wants out of life... What I'm willing to accept and what I'm not willing to accept.
I know you all are here to support and guide me and I appreciate it! I'm just feeling a little lost tonight... trying to find myself.
Star, what you do want is the complete and verified truth by a poly to your satisfaction. Anything less is nothing more than a prelude to a false recovery that will be much more painful than what you are going through now.
In my view, if a polygraph is needed then Plan B is the way to go. Live by yourself and practice the Basic Needs from a distance. He must prove himself to you and build up the trust. It really comes down to how long you are willing to put yourself through the roller coaster and where is your quality of life. Holding on to unrealistic hope versus reality can mean the difference between living in a state of mind that literally renders itself unhealthy and having pain but knowing you are moving forward in truth.
Starfish, it does not take "baby steps" at all. That is just an excuse to avoid doing the right thing. And working on yourselves is a distraction at a time when your marriage is crumbling. You might not have a marriage anymore if you go off on some wild goose chase.
There is no problem in your marriage right now that can't be solved by his telling the truth and passing the polygraph.
He REFUSES to do those things. REFUSES. Counseling cannot compensate for lying.
In my view, if a polygraph is needed then Plan B is the way to go.
If he passes the polygraph then plan B is not needed. The polygraph is needed to discern if he is telling the truth. If he is telling the truth then obviously plan B is not warranted.
In my view, if a polygraph is needed then Plan B is the way to go.
If he passes the polygraph then plan B is not needed. The polygraph is needed to discern if he is telling the truth. If he is telling the truth then obviously plan B is not warranted.
Fair enough, but I see it the other way. If things are so bad that a polygraph is needed, then enact Plan B. I believe there are other means and methods by which truthfulness can be measured by. After all, are you going to hook the spouse up to wires every time there are fears or 'signs'? It isn't doable. I think it is better to rely on other methods while Plan B is in place.
You have this backwards. Of course things are bad or a polygraph wouldn't be necessary. Passing the polygraph resolves the matter of truthfulness and prevents the necessity of Plan B. Plan B is only necessary when the WS continues to lie. The polygraph resolves that issue.
Call the Coaching Center to get a clear and true plan.
Call them and you will see what they can offer you. The main thing is they can offer you the path to recovery. They can offer you the steps to achieve the marriage you want and deserve.
In my view, if a polygraph is needed then Plan B is the way to go.
If he passes the polygraph then plan B is not needed. The polygraph is needed to discern if he is telling the truth. If he is telling the truth then obviously plan B is not warranted.
Fair enough, but I see it the other way. If things are so bad that a polygraph is needed, then enact Plan B. I believe there are other means and methods by which truthfulness can be measured by. After all, are you going to hook the spouse up to wires every time there are fears or 'signs'? It isn't doable. I think it is better to rely on other methods while Plan B is in place.
Just curious to know what other means and methods truthfulness can be monitored by..?
Star - I don't believe there are any that would work for your husband besides the poly. He's looked you straight in the eye and with all sincerity of expression lied boldly straight at you. He's claimed to be the 5% exception, when all evidence points to the contrary - evidence interpreted by experts, not us.
I'm so sorry you broke Plan B. Unless he's truly doing a TST/HerPapaBear and volunteering to take the poly again and do anything and everything to win your trust, you should not be out of Plan B for any reason. If you think now is painful or two days ago was painful, try a false recovery. He may not keep his lies. He may not withdraw financial support. He may not do those things to harm you and be perceived as anything but a selfish lying pig!
How could you possibly believe him when he's done the financial things to you he's done this past week? Has he taken ANY ACTION to set things right? Or are you settling for sweet talk alone as the marker for his truthfulness now?
He said that he hopes I can forgive him someday, but he is willing to do whatever it takes to earn back my trust and prove to me that he is fully committed to the marriage.
Whatever it takes = tell the truth and take and pass a poly to prove you are telling the truth. That has been and will always be the answer. If he is unwilling to do this, then he is lying to you by simply making this statement, because he is NOT willing to do whatever it takes.
What he is really saying: "Starfish, I am willing to do whatever it takes, ... except practice radical honesty, do the one thing I can do to PROVE to you that I am telling the truth and ready for recovery (poly), and work on REAL recovery...but I am willing to do whatever ELSE it takes to earn back your trust and prove I am fully committed." Really, this is irrational nonsense. You know that, you just miss him.
I've been seeking all of the details, truth for so long, but now I'm not so sure that this is as important to me as I originally thought. I've also wondered if he could have failed the poly due to thoughts that he had, but I'm not sure. I'm not really sure about what I really do or do not want to know at this point. I'm not sure that it would benefit me either way. It would be painful either way and he knows he screwed up.
As far as him showing remorse... I did feel like he was truly remorseful with his words this morning.
Whether or not it is important for you to know the details, or even to know about whole affairs, is it important for your WH to be WILLING TO PROVIDE that information if you do want and need it??? If he is truly remorseful and understands that his affairs and continued lies have damaged your marriage (and brought you incredible pain may I add) and that your marriage needs to do a complete 180 to have any hope for recovery, he would be willing to be open and honest about everything that has destroyed your marriage, in order to begin true recovery. Whether the details are important or not, him being willing to provide those details IS important. His unwillingness to do that proves he is not anywhere near ready for true recovery. So is it acceptable for him to be unwilling to be open and honest with you, whether you care about the answer or not??? (PS I have a good decade of 'wondering' under my belt and I can tell you, there is no possible way to have a full love bank with that little seed in the back of your mind...I am the master of Plan C and you do not want to be in it)
As far as remorse, your WH can be remorseful. It is hard to believe a WS would NOT be somewhat remorseful in the heat of the havoc that has been caused. That does not equate to understanding the true devastation they have caused or what narrow path they need to follow to stay on course in the future. Only through MB principles, including Radical Honesty, can that be accomplished.
I am leaning towards it actually being an EA with OW#1 and even if there was more, would it really matter to me at this point? Do I really want to torture myself with more details? I actually wish I could erase the details from my mind that he revealed that happened between him and OW #2.
starfish. Your WH gave you all the details of OW#2 because she is out of the picture. It was a distraction to keep you from requiring him to be completely honest aboutOW #1. Because OW#1 is who is important to him.
Your WH is still protecting OW#1 and his relationship with her. This is more important to him than your own needs. Think about that.
The poly isn't about getting all the details...it is about showing you that he is now willing to be honest with you. Without his honesty, you will find yourself stuck in resentment and it will eat at you until you hate him and then finally decide that you are done.
This is what happened to me. I was at this point when I found MB. My FWH was doing everything right EXCEPT being honest...and I was starting to hate him.
You are lucky because you found MB before you got to this point.
You're right; he doesn't want to drag things out. He wants to keep them exactly like they are right now - he gets to keep his secrets while you struggle to "move on" and "let the past be the "past."
You're teaching him that openness and honesty are not requirements in your marriage; you're teaching him that if he throws a tantrum, you will back down and allow him to do what he wants to do, when he wants to do it.
I'm sure is IS remorseful right now, and let's say the affairs between OW 1 and 2 are indeed over. Let's even say you can "move on" without the factual information about both these relationships (although to me, this is about as plausible an assumption as the sun will rise in the west tomorrow morning). What about the next time your H encounters a situation - a time when he feels his needs are not being met; a time when a co-worker really admires the work he is doing; a time when the hot new bartender comps him a drink? What will he do - exercise EPs and come home and talk to you about it? Not likely as you and he will have set the bar on the ground for these types of challenges in your marriage.
My H, CGIR, held on to his lies for A QUARTER OF A CENTURY. Some things he let me sweep under the carpet (he let me believe a year-long PA was a weeks-long EA); some things he never told me (a ONS with a prostitute); and other things he gaslighted me about until I thought I was crazy and spent over a year in IC to work on "my" issues with trust. He "whole-heartedly" (in fact, encouraged) me to call MB. We worked with Jennifer and he blatantly lied to her and she believed him. He went to an IC after I caught him in another lie and lied to this counselor as well. I caught him in lie after lie, which required constant surveillance on my part and took a lifelong toll on me. It's important for you to know that none of these lies involved OW, BUT THEY COULD HAVE, had the conditions been right. My H was another affair waiting to happen.
I did not require a polygraph and this was A MISTAKE. Please do not make the same mistake. I see your future because I've been down the same path you're traveling. I see the pitfalls you WILL enocunter. I know you think you'll be able to take a special shortcut no one else knows about (so did I), but believe me when I tell you it doesn't exist.
Your plan is fatally flawed, you just don't see it yet.
Please have a better outcome than me; you do not want what I have.
Be open, honest and direct. Say that you want a new relationship that both of you will honor and cherish by following the principles of MB. (You have both seen what happens when you don't).
Say that you want a new relationship based on a foundation of trust, and the only SOLID foundation you can have at this point is a passed polygraph. You are starting from below ground-zero in terms of trust; neither of you can trust the other. You cannot trust him to be honest about the past or the future; he cannot trust you to be honest about what you need and require (otherwise, you would not have broken Plan B). He also cannot trust you to not to revisit his affairs - you are about as honest as he is now when you say you will not, that the information you have now is enough. By passing the poly, he will have taken the first step toward regaining your trust, and you will have taken the first step in offering him trust he deserves IF he truly wants an open and honest relationship with you.
If he still wants to hide information from you, you will go through exactly the same cycle you just ended. But this time, it will be worse; now he will need to exceed the behavior he engaged in previously in order to get you to back down again. He's learned that a tantrum will get him what he wants; he just may need to have bigger and longer tantrums in order to achieve it.
But if he REALLY wants to start over with you, he WILL take the poly, he will take it willingly and he will PASS.
If you settle for anything other than a passed poly, you are accepting the cycle above for as long as your husband wishes to continue it.
And because it's working for him, I predict that will be a long, long time.
But if he REALLY wants to start over with you, he WILL take the poly, he will take it willingly and he will PASS.
If you settle for anything other than a passed poly, you are accepting the cycle above for as long as your husband wishes to continue it.
And because it's working for him, I predict that will be a long, long time.
BINGO. I see that your husband would rather go to "counseling" to work on "issues" than do what it necessary to save your marriage. If you back down, starfish, you will never save this. You will be facing a future of more affairs. There is a good reason your husband flunked the polygraph, and that is because he is lying. Lying is NOT a sign of remorse and does not reflect a person who is serious.
All that has happened here is that Plan B was starting to make your husband uncomfortable and he decided to see if he could manipulate you into doing the adjusting rather than him. He succeeded this time.
It is trying to beat a dead horse in the head. He has heard it all. He has disregarded it and given excuses that he half believes himself and gives tears and sweet talk to avoid taking a poly and passing it.
Starfish.....he is showing zero initiative in any type of true recovery here. He is putting a lot of energy into doing everything BUT what he should put energy into.
You are just delaying dealing with the situation because you were feeling withdrawal from him.
Send no email right now. Let him do allllllllllllllllllll the work, or be cast away for you to heal.
Ok, yes... I broke Plan B. I do need the major details and know whatever it is that he is hiding. I would like to reiterate this to him again, so we can begin to work on our marriage.
She needs to somehow shut that door again and reiterate her conditions since she has thrown them out the window this weekend. Just going dark isn't the right message either.
My suggestion is that she send a short email just saying she made a mistake by contacting him this weekend and needs to cut off all contact until he agrees to her conditions to tell her the full truth and pass a polygraph.
Ok, yes... I broke Plan B. I do need the major details and know whatever it is that he is hiding. I would like to reiterate this to him again, so we can begin to work on our marriage.
Will he give you the full truth this week and agree to take another polygraph?
You are heading down the wrong path for personal and marriage recovery. Please read RocketQueen's thread. She kept breaking plan B and lowering her bar...I think she stopped posting here bc she is in false recovery. This is what people hope you avoid.
She needs to somehow shut that door again and reiterate her conditions since she has thrown them out the window this weekend. Just going dark isn't the right message either.
My suggestion is that she send a short email just saying she made a mistake by contacting him this weekend and needs to cut off all contact until he agrees to her conditions to tell her the full truth and pass a polygraph.
Ok, yes... I broke Plan B. I do need the major details and know whatever it is that he is hiding. I would like to reiterate this to him again, so we can begin to work on our marriage.
Will he give you the full truth this week and agree to take another polygraph?
Why don't you pick up the phone and call him. Tell him you have come to your senses and realized you are right back where you started: you still don't have the full truth or successful polygraph. Marital recovery cannot even BEGIN until that happens. "If you mean what you say when you say you will do what it takes, then you will give me the full truth and take another polygraph to demonstrate your truthfulfulness. Are you willing to do that this week?"
If not, then tell him that you can't be in contact with him until that happens. All of this "counseling" is just a distraction and an indicator that he is not being truthful when he says he is "willing to do whatever it takes."
End the call by saying that you cannot even begin to discuss reconcilation until that happens and until that does happen, you need to end contact.
the grief you felt during the separation is called withdrawal and all people feel it and it sucks BIG time. Your love is not unique and special in that circumstance.
If he gets nasty when you are separate from him financially, etc.......he is troubled in a negative way that is effecting you but don't let the fear of financial betrayel rule you. Don't react to his actions but strategize and respond calmly and legally via an attorney.
The Plan B letter I sent him got washed by accident he said. It was in his pocket.
He said that I'm not going to get anything else. He said he would think about it and try, but he has told me everything that he can possibly think of. He seemed to be good at writing the truth, so I asked him to start there. He said he could try, but he didn't know what trying was going to do at this point, because he has already wracked his brain at this point and there isn't anything else.
Go read Kiss's thread. He's totally fogged out just like your wayward. Your WH doesn't share this side of himself with you...the part that's really angry with you for interrupting his carefree lifestyle with other women but he's thinking and saying this stuff to his supporters.
You guy needs a serious wake up call because just like Kiss, your wayward seems to think he has the upper hand here and that you'll just roll over and love him no matter what he does.
You proved that by breaking your plan b this weekend. You're probably going to feel awful for a few days now. Breaking plan b before it's time means going right back to the pain that drove you to seek him out. Prepare for this and get strong, girl. You've done amazing things so far. Be tough!
Your wayward has a long way to fall before he can face the havoc he's created. Let it happen and focus on you for now.
It's called I WANT MY WIFE BACK and it's just a few lines down from this thread.
You've got to understand that your husband is wayward. There's a whole line of thinking that goes along with wayward and it's not pretty.
It's all about how special they are and how they deserve happiness and how much their partners suck. I know because I did it.
Your husband is gone for now so trying to reach him is going to bring pain. He's a fogged out wayward who thinks he's so special you'll take him back in a flash if he squeezes out a few tears. He has A LOT of work to do.
Kiss's wife kept breaking plan b and trying to reach the man she married. She kept trying to get through his fog and couldn't do it. She's exhausted now and there's been little to no progress.
He said that I'm not going to get anything else. He said he would think about it and try, but he has told me everything that he can possibly think of....He said he could try, but he didn't know what trying was going to do at this point, because he has already wracked his brain at this point and there isn't anything else.
Dear Starfish:
My H said EXACTLY the same thing. Add to this, "I'm not going to lie just to make you happy." (Wait for this line from your husband).
My H repeated these lines from August of 2006 to September of 2010.
What I thought I knew was only the tip of an iceberg.
I still believe he had sex with OW #2, and he still denies it.
I still don't have an answer BECAUSE I DIDN'T GET A POLYGRAPH.
He said that I'm not going to get anything else. He said he would think about it and try, but he has told me everything that he can possibly think of....He said he could try, but he didn't know what trying was going to do at this point, because he has already wracked his brain at this point and there isn't anything else.
Dear Starfish:
My H said EXACTLY the same thing. Add to this, "I'm not going to lie just to make you happy." (Wait for this line from your husband).
My H repeated these lines from August of 2006 to September of 2010.
What I thought I knew was only the tip of an iceberg.
I still believe he had sex with OW #2, and he still denies it.
I still don't have an answer BECAUSE I DIDN'T GET A POLYGRAPH.
Listen to unwritten and me. We've been there.
You DON'T want to be where we've been/are.
BV
He has already told me that he's not just going to make stuff up!
The EA with OW#1 was enough for him to betray his vows.
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I am leaning towards it actually being an EA with OW#1
You reveal some of your BS fog right in the beginning of your "I have broken Plan B" post.
EA? I believe you have agreed that it makes NO SENSE that he could have had a long term EA with OW1 with opportunity for a PA, given his strong emotional attachment to this woman vs OW2.
In addition, Dr Harley explains that once some ENs are met outside of marriage (intimate conversation) it is just a matter of time before the other ENs will follow (SF). Here:
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If enough Love Bank deposits are made to trigger romantic love, then our instincts to meet the intimate emotional needs of affection and sexual fulfillment become almost irresistible. Your wife has said that her affair was just emotional, but you can be sure that if you had not discovered it and she had not put an end to it, it would have become sexual as well.
What we see here on the forums every day is right in line with that - most of the EAs escalate to a PA w/n a very short time.
A six year EA where they have stolen off together secretly such as on the boat? Come on, SF! You know he is lying about this but you have allowed foggy thinking to creep in to rationalize your actions.
starfish. Your WH gave you all the details of OW#2 because she is out of the picture. It was a distraction to keep you from requiring him to be completely honest aboutOW #1. Because OW#1 is who is important to him.
Your WH is still protecting OW#1 and his relationship with her. This is more important to him than your own needs. Think about that.
Exactly!
Why would he continue to lie about OW1? Because she is still in the picture, SF. That's why...
If she says "yes," you will have to wonder if she is lying to advance her own agenda (e.g., you will throw him out and he will be "available"). If your H says still says "no," all you will have accomplished is to pit two liars against each other.
And, of course, he will continue/resume contact with her....
If she says "no," you will have to wonder if she is lying to advance her own agenda (e.g., keep you in the dark so their relationship can continue). If your H says, "See?" all you will have accomplished is to ally two liars with each other.
And, of course, he will continue/resume contact with her....
I want to let you know that I have not been completely honest about OW#1 over the last two years. �The day we went to lunch that you know about, that started all this, OW#1 did tell me as I was getting in my truck that she loved me. �I responded with I love you too, and you�ll get through this. �Not sure why I told her I loved her, but she was very emotional, and that was how I responded. �I do care about her, because we had a good, but strange relationship for 3 years. When she came back into the picture it did stir up old memories. �I contacted her a lot more frequently than I even realized during the last 2 years. �I was shocked on how often it actually was. �You and I were starting to go through some rough times as OW#1 started to enter the picture again. �We were not communicating well, and we had our fertility issues going on as well. �You would go outside with wine and smokes, and do research, get on blogs, face book, whatever it was, and I�d just do my thing inside or go to our neighbor's house or whatever. �We were not ourselves, and for some reason I could not communicate with you. �I think I was afraid of making the issues you already had worse, but I�m not sure why you didn�t communicate with me. So as OW#1 was leaning on me, I started to lean on her as well. �She was someone I could at least talk too. �Not necessarily about problems, but just talk, communicate, something I couldn�t do with you. As time went on I did have thoughts about if I had married the right person. �If OW#1 had moved to � �Florida 12 years ago, would we have been together. �I even thought about sex with her again, even though that never happened, and we never even talked about stuff like that with each other. �Those thoughts however did cross my mind. �The connection that we had lost over time seemed to be coming back. I knew it was wrong to be doing what I was doing, but I didn�t understand why. �I thought well as long as we keep this a friendly thing then there should be nothing wrong with it, but there was something wrong. �I understand that better now. �Just letting her back in my life brought back old memories and thoughts of affairs. �If she had not come back in my life, or if I had not let her back in, then those thoughts and memories would probably not have ever come up, and I may have been able to maybe communicate with you. �She was a distraction to our marriage. As more time went on and we were doing our Creighton model meetings, and we started to seem to come back together a little more, maybe because of a common goal of a baby and family. I did start to push back on meeting with OW#1, but that did not stop me from being in contact with her. �For some reason I could not completely push her out of my life. �I always had to have at least some way to contact her in case I felt the need to. �I was not happy about writing the letter to OW#1 that night when we sent it to her, but I did feel some sense of relief later on. �You helped me do something that I for some reason could not do on my own, and that was cut ties with OW#1. As long as she was around, I was going to feel the need to be friendly with her. After counseling started, and we started having some really good days, it was evident to me that what I really needed was you, my wife in my life. �We had both drifted pretty far apart from each other, and it was nice to have you back in close again. �Granted during counseling we had rough days as well, but the good days were some of the best I�ve had with you in several years. Overall I have come to terms about cutting ties with OW#1. �I have learned a lot about what is right and what is wrong in a marriage. �Should I have known these before, yes, but sometimes it takes things like this to make people understand the poison that comes from letting others cross the boundaries of a marriage. �I now realize how much poison OW#1 was to us. �I have also realized that letting any female cross boundaries is a recipe for disaster. Starfish, I have seen us over the last couple months grow close again on days. �Close like we were when we were dating. �Where we just loved being around each other. �When we couldn�t keep our hands off each other. �I feel that we can be that couple again, and not just for a short period of time, but for the rest of our lives.
Her email address is blocked at work and his personal email. He hasn't been in contact with her by email or phone, but I can't monitor his work stuff, but he did show me that he blocked her email. I can't be sure that they aren't still talking at work.
Is he willing to take a polygraph this week to back up his story that he has not had sex with the OW and that he is not having an affair? If he has nothing to hide he should be eager to take another one to clear his name and save his marriage.
I have no doubt they didn't have sex when they were on the boat that afternoon because they are both so upstanding and moral. They would surely not do that.
I can't be sure that they aren't still talking at work.
Dear Starfish:
You will never be sure of anything until your H gets on board and passes his polygraph.
This is what unwritten and I meant when we said that no matter how much you tell yourself that you don't need "details," the question of openness and honesty will always haunt you.
Below, from one of my H's (Cantgetitright) early posts:
Something that I struggle with is helping out my wife when there is something that doesn't add up. An example...
I am away on business with the OW and we kiss. Additional days are spent together and the kiss is not brought up or happen again.
I get back from the trip and decide to get in the car and see if something more could happen. Driving there, I realize that pursuing this could lead to the end of my marriage so I don't continue on.
My wife at that time (and subsequent times) says that my story (I put on a number of miles looking for a fast food place in addition to running errands) doesn't add up.
I eventually decide to come clean and tell her that I was on my way to her house but had second thoughts.
Initially, she is relieved because all along she suspected that my story was bs and that I did go to her house to sleep with her.
As time goes by and she thinks how the EA continued with the phone calls (and my denials of the phone calls/deleting them from my cell phone) and how upset/sick she would get with asking me to stop and me not stopping - that my story must not be true. That what I finally said, although it makes sense, just doesn't add up. That it is telling her a plausible story that still is not the truth.
How do we deal with this? It is something that will lead to long conversations where the events get replayed and she is still upset/confused/angry and not sure if what I said is true.
My lying about the event for a long time before finally telling the truth and of course subsequent events where I am caught in a lie - can't bring an end to this and is a cause of great pain.
Is the only solution, continued openness and honesty on my part or is there something else?
Really could use some input.
And, one of his posts after I demanded a polygraph (Check my signature line for what I found out at this time, and know that for privacy I only list SOME of what I found out:
Continuing with my timeline discussion with my wife...
My wife has always said that I am guilty of trickle truth. I agree with that statement if it was only referencing the past few years, but as I looked at my timeline and thought about everything that has happened I would say that I engaged in no truth or cover your [censored] truth the rest of the time.
No truth - don't think she will ever find out, so never bring it up.
Cover your [censored] truth - when confronted, cover your [censored] by making up a story that sounds semi-reasonable.
Also, the reason for the timeline was due to my wife saying that to stay in this marriage I would have to take a polygraph test. So rather then leaving my marriage up to this, I decided to do the timeline and come clean with all of the sh** that I put her through, lied about or didn't tell her about all these years.
As I sat there and told her some of these details, I could see the shock and disgust on her face. I could see the life, the energy get taken away from her.
After every weekend together, she updates my phone with a picture. This week, she put a picture of the word TRUTH that was on a billboard with the sun shining through it.
I interpret this as the truth shall set you free - unfortunately, the truth will set her free. Free from having to live with a liar, a coward and a person that she probably can't forgive.
I can't blame her for that. I'm ashamed, embarrassed by the way that I have treated her. I am ashamed that it took the threat of a polygraph test to finally come clean.
I don't know if there is a chance at recovery. I don't know if she will ever trust me again. I don't know how this marriage can continue.
I know the timeline, disclosure was necessary, but looking back - she had asked me for this numerous times and I couldn't do it.
Now more than ever, I could use some advice as to what I could possibly do to salvage this marriage.
During the time he wrote post #1, he was EXACTLY like your husband.
And it does not matter if your H's affairs have ended; if you don't resolve this issue, there WILL be another affair, if not with OW #1 or #2, with an OW #3.
If you understand the lovebank model, then you understand that she made massive LB$ deposits over 6 years, never mind that there was already a huge LB$ to begin since they were previous lovers and that he did indeed love her. ie, (from your very first post on this thread):
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*I found old pictures and cards from her (before me) that he had saved. There were many pictures of them together and the cards from her said Love, All my love, Love Always and other sexual innuendoes. I asked him after D-Day if he was in love with her and he said, �NO�!!! I asked him if she was in love with him and with a softer tone he said, �I�don�t �know�. I burned all of the pictures and cards!
If he had completely ended & closed the door on any future communications with OW1, then I don't understand why he wouldn't just fess up. To me this is a huge red flag that telling you "everything" will make it impossible for him to continue that relationship with her. He hasn't given her up yet, SF. He is addicted to her which is no surprise since she has been meeting his ENs for six years.
The only way you will know he has decided to completely give up his SSL and become radically honest is when he tells you (1) the truth about his PA with OW1 and (2) can pass a poly.
If you're looking for technical advice, lots of people can help you.
If, though, you're looking for the "right" or "magic" words that will cause your H to see the light, tell you the truth and begin anew with you - well, there aren't any.
Only he can decide that this is the right thing to do.
You cannot compel him (believe me - been there, done that, have the t-shirt, the souvenir water bottle, the glow-in-the-dark necklace, etc., etc.).
You can, however, protect yourself from settling or a false recovery.
Say what MelodyLane told you to say a few pages ago: you came to your senses, know what you want and will not change your mind again.
Then, it's up to him.
If he decides he doesn't want to be open and honest, then YOU DON'T WANT HIM.
Back to Plan B; ride out the extinction burst that will follow, and then, see what happens.
What happens after your notification is up to him. Your response will protect you, or make you vulnerable to a lifetime of doubt, suspicion and insecurity.
Have you had any contact with OW's husband? I know that they are supposedly divorced or getting divorced, but I think it would be a really good idea for you to compare notes with him.
You may discover that they are divorcing because of the affair she's with your husband. Or you may discover that the "divorce" that she needed consoling over was all a lie and that her husband is clueless. Or you may discover that he's aware of it, and he may have cell phone records that show your husband is still calling her everyday.
Since the truth isn't coming out on your side of things, check the other side...
Take melodylanes advice to the letter. Either he agrees to take a poly or you need to get back in Plan B.
Contacting the OW is pointless as she was not honest with you last time (about the ILYs) yet her story matched his exactly. It matched because their contact continues and they are careful to ensure their stories match.
Get the poly or protect yourself from the pain of further trickle truth.
Yes withdrawal is hard but someone of your strength CAN do it and ensure they get what they deserve.
Have you had any contact with OW's husband? I know that they are supposedly divorced or getting divorced, but I think it would be a really good idea for you to compare notes with him.
You may discover that they are divorcing because of the affair she's with your husband. Or you may discover that the "divorce" that she needed consoling over was all a lie and that her husband is clueless. Or you may discover that he's aware of it, and he may have cell phone records that show your husband is still calling her everyday.
Since the truth isn't coming out on your side of things, check the other side...
Yes, I've had contact with him and he believes it was only an EA. He is a Sgt. for the Sheriff's Dept. and has interrogated her. He said his lie detector/BS detector is very good and he believes that there was not a PA. Says his wife cares for my H as a friend and that is it. She tells everyone that she loves them and maybe WH took it the wrong way dealing with our infertility problems that he couldn't talk to me about and was leaning on her for support. Maybe he was reading too much into things...
His ex-wife caused a lot of problems in their marriage and he said that is ultimately the reason for their separation. His ex tried to get his W fired from her job. She also works for the Sheriff's office.
I texted him to see if he has access to her cell phone records and he called me. Said he doesn't, but did check her cell phone and records for the past 3 years and he said that everything between his W and my H was strictly platonic. Only texts around holidays... Happy Thanksgiving... You too, etc. Said there was a football game that they texted about the score (rivalry teams) and that was it. He has been with the sheriff's dept. for 23 years and just said there wasn't anything there from what he could tell from reading their texts. Said very few phone calls, etc.
He also mentioned that she has a difficult time with disconnecting from anyone in her life. It's just her personality and he isn't that way, but he is trying to understand why she feels so compelled to stay in touch with everyone. He said they are in the process of working on their marriage and she did mention to him that I called her. He already knew, but played dumb. She told him that WH and I were having some problems and she respected that I wanted no contact and she could deal with that and respected my wishes. She is also planning a trip to England soon to visit an old bf/now friend and his wife for a week. He said this is just the way she is... Wanting to remain friends and that's it.
She is also planning a trip to England soon to visit an old bf/now friend and his wife for a week. He said this is just the way she is... Wanting to remain friends and that's it.
Yikes, I feel for my countrywoman who prob has no idea a homewrecker is on the way.
Didn't this sgt also say their stories sounded rehearsed? As he is divorcing her anyway he prob just has no desire to probe further. Its pretty obvious, and should be obvious to someone with his experience, that something happened on the boat that day.
He is not impartial and that's the problem. I am an investigative journalist and have an excellent BS monitor myself...yet I was taken in for two years by very poor WH/OW lies. Because I wanted to believe.
He 'doesn't understand' why she needs to keep old boyfriends on the backburner because she has never explained it to him.
She is also planning a trip to England soon to visit an old bf/now friend and his wife for a week. He said this is just the way she is... Wanting to remain friends and that's it.
Yikes, I feel for my countrywoman who prob has no idea a homewrecker is on the way.
Didn't this sgt also say their stories sounded rehearsed? As he is divorcing her anyway he prob just has no desire to probe further. Its pretty obvious, and should be obvious to someone with his experience, that something happened on the boat that day.
He is not impartial and that's the problem. I am an investigative journalist and have an excellent BS monitor myself...yet I was taken in for two years by very poor WH/OW lies. Because I wanted to believe.
He 'doesn't understand' why she needs to keep old boyfriends on the backburner because she has never explained it to him.
WWs don't explain that sort of thing to a BH.
No, they are not divorcing quite yet... He said she is wanting to work on their marriage. He commented on their stories and said they are the same, because they probably are and that's what happened. He is used to getting both sides of story and most of the time they are the same because it's the truth.
I really can't take the "what if" mind games anymore. If they did or didn't have sex, I really don't care anymore. An affair is an affair either way you look at it. EA or PA is just as painful. WH is showing that he is remorseful and I told him today that I want the truth. I'm going to be honest and say that if I did 1/2 the things he has done, I wouldn't have admitted to all of the details that he has. I didn't really need to know all the details and wish I didn't know them. I would never have an affair, but if I did, I wouldn't have shared all the details that WH has revealed to me. I just couldn't go there...
He commented on their stories and said they are the same, because they probably are and that's what happened. He is used to getting both sides of story and most of the time they are the same because it's the truth.
But it wast the truth was it? She left out her declaration of love to a married man. Your husband.
Maybe she knew she wouldn't be trusted to visit old boyfriends if she was truthful!
He commented on their stories and said they are the same, because they probably are and that's what happened. He is used to getting both sides of story and most of the time they are the same because it's the truth.
But it wast the truth was it? She left out her declaration of love to a married man. Your husband.
Maybe she knew she wouldn't be trusted to visit old boyfriends if she was truthful!
Who says she is in love with my husband? She came down here to visit her mom twice a year. My husband had two lunches with her (one I knew about and was invited to, but refused). The other lunch was with OW, her sister and kids (verified) and the other time she wanted to have lunch to talk and WH had already made plans to go fishing, so he said he would swing by and talk to her before fishing. I am believing this to be true and true even more. My head is constantly being filled with doubts though from what others are saying here. I do believe it could've become a PA, but I truly don't believe that it did. I think my WH was enjoying the attention (as limited as it was) and it could've turned into a PA, but I do not believe it did. Yes, there is a reason my WH failed the polygraph, but the question was in relation to sexual contact, which also could've been due to a horrid detail that he left out with OW#2 from what the polygrapher/ex-detective told me on the phone this morning.
I texted him to see if he has access to her cell phone records and he called me. Said he doesn't, but did check her cell phone and records for the past 3 years and he said that everything between his W and my H was strictly platonic. Only texts around holidays... Happy Thanksgiving... You too, etc. Said there was a football game that they texted about the score (rivalry teams) and that was it. He has been with the sheriff's dept. for 23 years and just said there wasn't anything there from what he could tell from reading their texts. Said very few phone calls, etc.
OK but let's look at your account:
Originally Posted by starfish75
*He did block her email address and deleted her as a contact after I asked him to do so. I really have no proof of their �friendship� being anymore that just a friendship, because he deleted EVERYTHING! He deleted texts, vm�s, call history, emails, etc. I have no idea what they talked about.
This actually came up on my STBX's thread because he erased everything, claiming it was all innocent, and he was hammered for that, he was asked, why would you erase evidence that would exonerate you? Think about it. Yes, those posters were all correct because it was a PA.
Why would he have deleted the phone number and then secretly added it back on? Why a secret meeting out on the boat? This is behavior of people in an affair, SF, not innocent friends who have nothing to hide.
OW1 BH sounds like he was never suspicious of this being an affair so he never did any real super sleuthing. I noticed he doesn't mention anything about a VAR or keylogger or having seen the emails or having his WW take a poly. His reassurance really doesn't mean anything, SF.
He also mentioned that she has a difficult time with disconnecting from anyone in her life. It's just her personality and he isn't that way, but he is trying to understand why she feels so compelled to stay in touch with everyone. He said they are in the process of working on their marriage and she did mention to him that I called her. He already knew, but played dumb. She told him that WH and I were having some problems and she respected that I wanted no contact and she could deal with that and respected my wishes. She is also planning a trip to England soon to visit an old bf/now friend and his wife for a week. He said this is just the way she is... Wanting to remain friends and that's it.
This man has been seriously gaslit! Probably some denial mixed in there as well. She has her "space" while still probably receiving financial support as well, ie, "still working on the marriage". She has convinced him these interactions with past boyfriends is because she has trouble disconnecting? She is going to England to visit an old bf and he is defending this type of behavior?
I texted him to see if he has access to her cell phone records and he called me. Said he doesn't, but did check her cell phone and records for the past 3 years and he said that everything between his W and my H was strictly platonic. Only texts around holidays... Happy Thanksgiving... You too, etc. Said there was a football game that they texted about the score (rivalry teams) and that was it. He has been with the sheriff's dept. for 23 years and just said there wasn't anything there from what he could tell from reading their texts. Said very few phone calls, etc.
OK but let's look at your account:
Originally Posted by starfish75
*He did block her email address and deleted her as a contact after I asked him to do so. I really have no proof of their �friendship� being anymore that just a friendship, because he deleted EVERYTHING! He deleted texts, vm�s, call history, emails, etc. I have no idea what they talked about.
This actually came up on my STBX's thread because he erased everything, claiming it was all innocent, and he was hammered for that, he was asked, why would you erase evidence that would exonerate you? Think about it. Yes, those posters were all correct because it was a PA.
Why would he have deleted the phone number and then secretly added it back on? Why a secret meeting out on the boat? This is behavior of people in an affair, SF, not innocent friends who have nothing to hide.
OW1 BH sounds like he was never suspicious of this being an affair so he never did any real super sleuthing. I noticed he doesn't mention anything about a VAR or keylogger or having seen the emails or having his WW take a poly. His reassurance really doesn't mean anything, SF.
He and his W shared an email account. He snooped a lot the past three years and had nothing on them, but a friendship. He also said there was no other phone, so I imagine he knows this from snooping as he told me that he has access to multiple ways of snooping/exposing the truth. My H deleted any contact with her because he knew that I would be upset if they were friends or in contact as it had come up in conversation before and he knew I didn't approve. My H didn't think it was right that I told him who he could and couldn't be friends with. Immature...yes!
I want to let you know that I have not been completely honest about OW#1 over the last two years. �The day we went to lunch that you know about, that started all this, OW#1 did tell me as I was getting in my truck that she loved me. �I responded with I love you too, and you�ll get through this. �Not sure why I told her I loved her, but she was very emotional, and that was how I responded. �
And here.
Originally Posted by starfish75
Wish I could get the truth from OW#1. I found out after I talked to her about their exchange of ILY's. She doesn't know that I know this...
Did OW BH tell you that he had used a VAR and keylogger to snoop on her? Why would he do that if he didn't suspect an A?
Did OW BH know about the lunches and the outing on the boat with your WH?
She was hanging out with the guys after work for drinks, so he was suspicious.
Yes, he knew about every meeting, lunch, boat and was there most of the time when texts were exchanged. He also checked her phone and cell phone records.
I want to let you know that I have not been completely honest about OW#1 over the last two years. �The day we went to lunch that you know about, that started all this, OW#1 did tell me as I was getting in my truck that she loved me. �I responded with I love you too, and you�ll get through this. �Not sure why I told her I loved her, but she was very emotional, and that was how I responded. �
And here.
Originally Posted by starfish75
Wish I could get the truth from OW#1. I found out after I talked to her about their exchange of ILY's. She doesn't know that I know this...
Her H said she tells EVERYONE that she loves them and it is strictly friendly! Notice my H told her that everything would be ok after he told her ILY back? He was talking about her marriage... That everything would work out. I think my H took things the wrong way, which resulted in fantasies, etc.
Did OW BH tell you that he had used a VAR and keylogger to snoop on her? Why would he do that if he didn't suspect an A?
Did OW BH know about the lunches and the outing on the boat with your WH?
She was hanging out with the guys after work for drinks, so he was suspicious.
Yes, he knew about every meeting, lunch, boat and was there most of the time when texts were exchanged. He also checked her phone and cell phone records.
If you read the various threads on this forums where men come here with problems with their wives, we often have to convince them of the affair because their denial is so deep. There are 3 to 4 right now on this forum that didn't believe us when we told them their wives were having an affair. We have another couple of wayward wives here who fooled their husbands for years. It is so easy to do. The OW#1 could have easily called your H from her workplace, hidden a secret affair phone or any # of tricks. And the OWH would never be the wiser.
Your typical husband doesn't WANT to believe it. A 5 year old can outsmart a spouse who is in denial. And most are.
Her H said she tells EVERYONE that she loves them and it is strictly friendly! Notice my H told her that everything would be ok after he told her ILY back? He was talking about her marriage... That everything would work out. I think my H took things the wrong way, which resulted in fantasies, etc.
He should be able to pass a polygraph if that is the truth, but he flunked.
A man who is defending his W having her "own space" while they work on the M and defending her traveling overseas and hookups with old boyfriends because "she has trouble disconnecting" is a man who is obviously in denial.
Did OW BH tell you that he had used a VAR and keylogger to snoop on her? Why would he do that if he didn't suspect an A?
Did OW BH know about the lunches and the outing on the boat with your WH?
She was hanging out with the guys after work for drinks, so he was suspicious.
Yes, he knew about every meeting, lunch, boat and was there most of the time when texts were exchanged. He also checked her phone and cell phone records.
If you read the various threads on this forums where men come here with problems with their wives, we often have to convince them of the affair because their denial is so deep. There are 3 to 4 right now on this forum that didn't believe us when we told them their wives were having an affair. We have another couple of wayward wives here who fooled their husbands for years. It is so easy to do. The OW#1 could have easily called your H from her workplace, hidden a secret affair phone or any # of tricks. And the OWH would never be the wiser.
Your typical husband doesn't WANT to believe it. A 5 year old can outsmart a spouse who is in denial. And most are.
She doesn't have a work phone, only a cell phone and her H said there was NO OTHER PHONE!
She doesn't have a work phone, only a cell phone and her H said there was NO OTHER PHONE!
That he knows about. Affair phones are kept SECRET. Most cheaters here had them!
So, let's say they both had affair phones.. highly unlikely!. Why would they need to text and call from their regular cell phones?
They still had an affair! It doesn't matter... We are beating a dead horse. There was an affair... it has already been admitted!
Well no, it has not been admitted to at all. According to her they are just platonic friends and according to your H, it was a one sided fantasy and they never had sex. And he flunked the polygraph.
They still had an affair! It doesn't matter... We are beating a dead horse. There was an affair... it has already been admitted!
OK. You've decided 'an affair is an affair' and you don't care whether EA or PA (but he cares and he cares about keeping the secret for a reason)so what does that mean for your next step?
Does that mean you wont insist on RH and a polygraph?
She doesn't have a work phone, only a cell phone and her H said there was NO OTHER PHONE!
That he knows about. Affair phones are kept SECRET. Most cheaters here had them!
So, let's say they both had affair phones.. highly unlikely!. Why would they need to text and call from their regular cell phones?
They still had an affair! It doesn't matter... We are beating a dead horse. There was an affair... it has already been admitted!
Well no, it has not been admitted to at all. According to her they are just platonic friends and according to your H, it was a one sided fantasy and they never had sex. And he flunked the polygraph.
WH admitted it was an EA and after I explained the definition on EA to OW#1, she agreed that it could have been, but she never thought about it like that. She agreed she was wrong for meeting my H behind my back and that it wasn't right. I already wrote about this conversation.
They still had an affair! It doesn't matter... We are beating a dead horse. There was an affair... it has already been admitted!
OK. You've decided 'an affair is an affair' and you don't care whether EA or PA (but he cares and he cares about keeping the secret for a reason)so what does that mean for your next step?
Does that mean you wont insist on RH and a polygraph?
What is your plan?
How does anybody know that it was or was not a PA? Nobody knows...We all do know it was an EA.
I have insisted on RA... I have already talked to him today about this.
True... but, OW's H saw all the texts a minimal calls that lasted less than 10 minutes.
So he overheard the calls? Was he taping them?
Do you want to call him? I already had a 30 minute conversation with him tonight. IT WAS AN AFFAIR! I don't give a crap what they did or didn't talk about! He betrayed our vows and had affairs!!! I don't give a crap what they talked about...
What is your point? I already stated that I don't want anymore details! Phone conversations are details and there were very few phone calls!
What will you do if he refuses to take a poly again?
I hope he gives me the truth I need too... Thank you!!!
I spoke about the poly again today, but also taking into consideration what the polygrapher said today that it could've been a detail that he left out. Not sure I want all the details... I don't want to picture those in my mind and wish I could erase the ones that I do have already!
IT WAS AN AFFAIR! I don't give a crap what they did or didn't talk about! He betrayed our vows and had affairs!!! I don't give a crap what they talked about...
What is your point? I already stated that I don't want anymore details! Phone conversations are details and there were very few phone calls!
The vets here will want to help you formulate a watertight recovery plan so you don't have a FR.
How he contacts her is important. I assume you will want him to block his methods of contacting her. So you need to know what they are.
MLs questions are out of concern you do not have a FR.
Originally Posted by starfish75
Not sure I want all the details... I don't want to picture those in my mind and wish I could erase the ones that I do have already!
None of us want the details but you need them. You need to know how the burglar got in to make a new security system that WORKS.
When he starts to heal you properly, when nothing is too much effort, then you will start to forget.
Either that or Plan B will heal you.
At the height of my worries I suggested me and WH go to a romantic hotel i really liked.
He took OW.
I had a lot of visuals about that. But now I don't anymore.
IT WAS AN AFFAIR! I don't give a crap what they did or didn't talk about! He betrayed our vows and had affairs!!! I don't give a crap what they talked about...
What is your point? I already stated that I don't want anymore details! Phone conversations are details and there were very few phone calls!
The vets here will want to help you formulate a watertight recovery plan so you don't have a FR.
How he contacts her is important. I assume you will want him to block his methods of contacting her. So you need to know what they are.
MLs questions are out of concern you do not have a FR.
Originally Posted by starfish75
Not sure I want all the details... I don't want to picture those in my mind and wish I could erase the ones that I do have already!
None of us want the details but you need them. You need to know how the burglar got in to make a new security system that WORKS.
When he starts to heal you properly, when nothing is too much effort, then you will start to forget.
Either that or Plan B will heal you.
At the height of my worries I suggested me and WH go to a romantic hotel i really liked.
He took OW.
I had a lot of visuals about that. But now I don't anymore.
Have faith!
Thank you Indie! Of course I don't want a FR. I also don't want all of the details and this is my choice. I heard Dr. H mention that it up to the person that is betrayed on how much of the details they are wanting. I did want to know EVERYTHING at first and now I don't.
The visuals would suck and the visuals that I already do have are painful... I wouldn't be able to deal with anymore details.
I realize people are concerned about a FR and I'm a little on the defense tonight with all of the what if this/that ?'s. I'm tired, I'm emotionally drained and still not eating well. I almost felt the need to take a Xanax after all the comments, questions and unknown accusations here the past hour!
starfish, Mel is not the enemy here, OK? Evil has invaded your M and she is trying to help you. She has been here for a long time and knows what she is talking about. She KNEW my STBX was lying to me right away. Her bullchit detector is invaluable.
starfish, Mel is not the enemy here, OK? Evil has invaded your M and she is trying to help you. She has been here for a long time and knows what she is talking about. She KNEW my STBX was lying to me right away. Her bullchit detector is invaluable.
You are LUCKY that she is posting to you...
I understand, but I felt bombarded with how do you know this and how do you know that type of questions, when I already posted the answers. Granted my thread has quite a few pages now... I have stated that I don't want the small details and I'm feeling pressure here to know EVERYTHING and I do not want to know everything!!! I want the BIG facts and that is it! If I decide to question WH further, when I'm ready, so be it. I'm just not ready for all of that right now. Many here haven't even asked or put there hand down in forcing a polygraph. I did! Yes, he failed... we all know that! I spoke with a polygrapher today that gave me more insight as to why he could've failed.
I was feeling totally ganged up on here tonight, while looking for and needing support. Instead I felt like I was being torn to shreds. I always appreciate any advice and support I receive here, which is why I keep coming back. There are lots of similarities with affairs, but there are also differences, just as no two marriages are the same. Everyone has a unique situation. Some things apply and some don't, just as some have asked for polygraphs and some have not. Some marriages recover and some do not. There are no guarantees on anything in life.
I also don't want all of the details and this is my choice.
Dear Starfish:
Okay, you don't want the details - there's a rational argument behind that point. It is indeed your choice.
However, what you do want - what you MUST have - is openness and honesty.
Without a passed poly, you have no idea if your husband is choosing to be honest with you, or choosing to sweep it all under the carpet.
And even if both affairs are over, and OW #1 was indeed an EA only, WHAT ABOUT THE NEXT TIME? And there WILL be a next time, in a week, a month, a couple of years....
Your husband will never have learned to be honest with you and you will be back in the same boat you're in.
Honest people pass polys; dishonest people fail them.
If something doesn't make sense, IT IS A LIE.
Have him take a poly and pass. You know the limitations of the questions; a passed poly won't inflict pages of graphic details on you.
Go forward knowing that your husband has been honest with you.
B ("been there") V
P.S. I think in the future, at some point, you WILL want answers to questions. If you wait too long, the answer is going to be, "I don't remember." After your husband passes his polygraph, have him write out a timeline NOW, while he still remembers. Put it away in a safe deposit box, have him hid it in the attic, anything.
If you never look at it, that's certainly your choice.
If, though, in the future, you need an answer to a question, you will have it. And it will give you peace of mind. "I don't remember" will not.
Most times, when someone here feels ganged up on here - me included, it is because people are saying something that is true and correct, but contrary to what they/I wanted to believe and the actions to be taken.
You say you don't want a false recovery. Your husband is still lying, doesn't demonstrate commitment to the marriage, and has no remorse. That's what false recovery looks like. I have been exactly there and it was ten times worse than the affair itself.
Everytime someone here talks about how unique their situation, it becomes clear that is is not. There is little about most affairs and affair-related behavior that is unique. Dr. Harley stresses that the path to recovering a marriage is narrow and specific. When couples take shortcuts or "bend" things around because they are unique, their chance of success is vastly diminished.
The bottom line, not to make you feel attacked but to relay my impressions is that you felt horrible when you tried to implement plan B. You missed your marriage and your husband.
You prefer accepting vagueness to simply staying out of the drama if it means feeling that missing him feeling again.
If you were stronger......you could tell him "Hey. If you pass a polygraph so I know the truth about your life, we can talk. Meanwhile, love you but I am out of the mess."
The polygraph guy told you what that makes you feel at ease here?.....I am not sure we understand that part of the puzzle that you are saying fits.
starfish, Mel is not the enemy here, OK? Evil has invaded your M and she is trying to help you. She has been here for a long time and knows what she is talking about. She KNEW my STBX was lying to me right away. Her bullchit detector is invaluable.
You are LUCKY that she is posting to you...
I understand, but I felt bombarded with how do you know this and how do you know that type of questions, when I already posted the answers. Granted my thread has quite a few pages now... I have stated that I don't want the small details and I'm feeling pressure here to know EVERYTHING and I do not want to know everything!!! I want the BIG facts and that is it! If I decide to question WH further, when I'm ready, so be it. I'm just not ready for all of that right now. Many here haven't even asked or put there hand down in forcing a polygraph. I did! Yes, he failed... we all know that! I spoke with a polygrapher today that gave me more insight as to why he could've failed.
I was feeling totally ganged up on here tonight, while looking for and needing support. Instead I felt like I was being torn to shreds. I always appreciate any advice and support I receive here, which is why I keep coming back. There are lots of similarities with affairs, but there are also differences, just as no two marriages are the same. Everyone has a unique situation. Some things apply and some don't, just as some have asked for polygraphs and some have not. Some marriages recover and some do not. There are no guarantees on anything in life.
Star, there's one thing I don't understand. You say you feel like you're being bombarded. You are being "bombarded" with the exact same advice you were "bombarded" with when you first came here. You listened, digested, then implemented. Almost to perfection. You, in effect, became an MB rocker!
Why are you so defensive now to the exact same advice you were so willing to receive and implement initially?
In other words, who are you and what have you done with our starfish75?
I spoke with a polygrapher today that gave me more insight as to why he could've failed. .
It was because he lied Starfish. Why are you trying to find a loophole for him?
The only thing that has changed between now and the day he failed miserably, is that you have discovered that you don't like withdrawal and now you are playing a game of 'how to dodge doing plan B because it hurts'
You didn't call him that night because of any significant changes in his behaviour. You did it to dodge withdrawal.
The toughest advice from the vets, the stuff you don't like is ALWAYS the best advice.
Originally Posted by starfish75
I was feeling totally ganged up on here tonight, while looking for and needing support. Instead I felt like I was being torn to shreds. I always appreciate any advice and support I receive here, which is why I keep coming back. There are lots of similarities with affairs, but there are also differences, just as no two marriages are the same. Everyone has a unique situation. Some things apply and some don't, just as some have asked for polygraphs and some have not. Some marriages recover and some do not. There are no guarantees on anything in life.
Sorry but I will not support attempts to dodge doing MB plans simply because they hurt.
I did it.
Did I insist on a poly? No. It did not apply in my case. He denied the evidence of the affair and to even admit it was an affair, so I moved straight to Plan B.
I realise you have painted a picture that you 'want to believe' it was only an EA and that he is some sort of special case that may have failed on a technicality .....
And that is your right. You are a grown woman. You can do whatever you want and ignore whatever you want.
But you won't find any support for that here.
If you choose to keep up with the plans, get every bit of RH and do a FULL MB recovery, you will be supported like crazy and you know that full well.
starfish, Mel is not the enemy here, OK? Evil has invaded your M and she is trying to help you. She has been here for a long time and knows what she is talking about. She KNEW my STBX was lying to me right away. Her bullchit detector is invaluable.
You are LUCKY that she is posting to you...
I understand, but I felt bombarded with how do you know this and how do you know that type of questions, when I already posted the answers. Granted my thread has quite a few pages now... I have stated that I don't want the small details and I'm feeling pressure here to know EVERYTHING and I do not want to know everything!!! I want the BIG facts and that is it! If I decide to question WH further, when I'm ready, so be it. I'm just not ready for all of that right now. Many here haven't even asked or put there hand down in forcing a polygraph. I did! Yes, he failed... we all know that! I spoke with a polygrapher today that gave me more insight as to why he could've failed.
I was feeling totally ganged up on here tonight, while looking for and needing support. Instead I felt like I was being torn to shreds. I always appreciate any advice and support I receive here, which is why I keep coming back. There are lots of similarities with affairs, but there are also differences, just as no two marriages are the same. Everyone has a unique situation. Some things apply and some don't, just as some have asked for polygraphs and some have not. Some marriages recover and some do not. There are no guarantees on anything in life.
Star, there's one thing I don't understand. You say you feel like you're being bombarded. You are being "bombarded" with the exact same advice you were "bombarded" with when you first came here. You listened, digested, then implemented. Almost to perfection. You, in effect, became an MB rocker!
Why are you so defensive now to the exact same advice you were so willing to receive and implement initially?
In other words, who are you and what have you done with our starfish75?
What has changed??
LOL! Thank you for making me laugh... Starfish is still here, but I'm exhausted and Plan B sucks!!! Yes, it's very painful and of course I miss my husband and our marriage. I want to keep fighting, but I'm scared and feeling weak! I want the truth (major facts) and knowing me, I'll also want the details or have other questions later. I'm just not sure what to think or where to go from here. I wish it was easier. I wish I could wave a wand and have all of the facts, but I can't.
I spoke with a polygrapher today that gave me more insight as to why he could've failed. .
It was because he lied Starfish. Why are you trying to find a loophole for him?
The only thing that has changed between now and the day he failed miserably, is that you have discovered that you don't like withdrawal and now you are playing a game of 'how to dodge doing plan B because it hurts'
You didn't call him that night because of any significant changes in his behaviour. You did it to dodge withdrawal.
The toughest advice from the vets, the stuff you don't like is ALWAYS the best advice.
Originally Posted by starfish75
I was feeling totally ganged up on here tonight, while looking for and needing support. Instead I felt like I was being torn to shreds. I always appreciate any advice and support I receive here, which is why I keep coming back. There are lots of similarities with affairs, but there are also differences, just as no two marriages are the same. Everyone has a unique situation. Some things apply and some don't, just as some have asked for polygraphs and some have not. Some marriages recover and some do not. There are no guarantees on anything in life.
Sorry but I will not support attempts to dodge doing MB plans simply because they hurt.
I did it.
Did I insist on a poly? No. It did not apply in my case. He denied the evidence of the affair and to even admit it was an affair, so I moved straight to Plan B.
I realise you have painted a picture that you 'want to believe' it was only an EA and that he is some sort of special case that may have failed on a technicality .....
And that is your right. You are a grown woman. You can do whatever you want and ignore whatever you want.
But you won't find any support for that here.
If you choose to keep up with the plans, get every bit of RH and do a FULL MB recovery, you will be supported like crazy and you know that full well.
The polygrapher said it could have been a detail from OW#2 as to why he failed. I have followed the plans here to a "T", until 4 1/2+ days into Plan B. Plan B sucks... I'm not going to lie... The pain is and was horrendous! There are others here who haven't asked for a poly or followed through with it because they knew they had all of the info, so this is one of the things I was talking about regarding polygraphs. I have been reading and listening to other stories here.
I just need to figure out what I want... I'm not sure. I'm praying and listening to the advice that is given to me. I don't know what else I can do. I did what ML said today about what to say to WH. The ball is in his court. I have nothing right now...
LOL! Thank you for making me laugh... Starfish is still here, but I'm exhausted and Plan B sucks!!! Yes, it's very painful and of course I miss my husband and our marriage. I want to keep fighting, but I'm scared and feeling weak! I want the truth (major facts) and knowing me, I'll also want the details or have other questions later. I'm just not sure what to think or where to go from here. I wish it was easier. I wish I could wave a wand and have all of the facts, but I can't.
Okay, this one is pretty easy...
Quote
Starfish is still here, but I'm exhausted and Plan B sucks!!!
Oh so glad to hear that! Sure you're tired, and yes, Plan B does suck...for a while anyway. Plan B is designed for a reason, and for a very good reason. YOU need to preserve YOUR mental health, and your posting the past few pages indicate that you are way past due for this reprieve. Oh yes, it will be hard as hell to begin with (as you have discovered), but you need to separate yourself from the drama that put you here in the first place.
Originally Posted by Rockstar75
I want to keep fighting, but I'm scared and feeling weak! I want the truth (major facts) and knowing me, I'll also want the details or have other questions later. I'm just not sure what to think or where to go from here. I wish it was easier. I wish I could wave a wand and have all of the facts, but I can't.
I know you are scared, but you are not weak. Not by a long shot. You're tired of the lies, tired of this, that, and the other thing and you're starting to consider accepting partial truths to end all the crap that you are having to deal with. And it WILL!!!!!!
Well, for a little while anyway.
You abandon the plan now and you can definitely expect to have your butt back here sooner rather than later crying that everyone was right and you were wrong. Bet on it, hon. It WILL happen. Or you can do the right thing now, and save yourself the pain of a false recovery.
And that is exactly where you are headed if you insist on maintaining this course of action. Guaranteed.
Glad I made you LOL though. Usually I make people cringe. LOL
It may seem expensive, but it's much cheaper than a divorce, no?
There have been MANY MANY posters who have called the coaching center and I have heard nothing but good things.
I really think that if you were to call, even the once, you would find the resolve to do whatever it is that you will need to do to try to save your marriage. They will give you the best advice.
I know that if my WH were to have attempted to come home, I would pay the money to get to talk to Steve or Jennifer.
Star - just making sure you're not overlooking his hostile actions.
Before you slip into Plan B you may want to develop a way to communicate that his actions with regard to finances are not a way to demonstrate he's through lying to you.
Any actions other than to clearly demonstrate his remorse and amends (like self-preservation and preparation for divorce) demonstrate the exact opposite and are better than a poly at showing his true colors. That's why you're going back to Plan B - until the poly and the remorse/amends are there.
Star, have you found out how to secure some finances from him? I really believe that that was a big reason for your change of heart this weekend. The big ol' reality stick hit ya over the head real good, and you got scared. No one here blames you for that. Let's just figure out a way to help you get to a place where this doesn't affect you in that way again. Protect yourself.
Even if your WH was remorseful, I would still suggest that you know your options.
You're worth more than crumbs.
Saw this quote, and I thought of you.
�Sometimes people don�t want to hear the truth because they don�t want their illusions destroyed.� � Friedrich Nietzsche
Star, have you found out how to secure some finances from him? I really believe that that was a big reason for your change of heart this weekend. The big ol' reality stick hit ya over the head real good, and you got scared. No one here blames you for that. Let's just figure out a way to help you get to a place where this doesn't affect you in that way again. Protect yourself.
Even if your WH was remorseful, I would still suggest that you know your options.
You're worth more than crumbs.
Saw this quote, and I thought of you.
�Sometimes people don�t want to hear the truth because they don�t want their illusions destroyed.� � Friedrich Nietzsche
Thank you! I actually made a financial agreement with him yesterday as to what I can afford to pay right now. He knows I have other money in savings, because I took @ 1/2 out of our accounts and opened a new account. He mentioned that I have money and I told him that I would not deplete my savings and that I was our of work due to his actions and lying. I'm taking care of the house, dogs and myself as best as I can and that should count for something too! We made an agreement (verbal), but I know he still has money from our boat, etc. I'm not too concerned about that right now. He knows I'm in a tight spot with money right now, but I can survive!
Plan B sucks like no other! We started FR with MB concepts in MC before I found out about OW#2 and that was nothing compared to Plan B! I must be a major co-dependent/enabler!
WH's birthday is this coming Saturday. Our mutual friends were planning on taking us for a boat ride out for lunch. He asked me if I still wanted to go yesterday and said I have time to think about it... I didn't give him an answer.
Plan B sucks like no other! We started FR with MB concepts in MC before I found out about OW#2 and that was nothing compared to Plan B!
Plan B is amazing. It doesn't suck at all.
Do you understand the difference between Plan B and withdrawal?
Withdrawal hurts, plan B does not.
Withdrawal grieving lasts only a few weeks and (for me anyway) the really painful bit was only two days.
I have been in Plan B almost a year and you can see from my thread I am not in pain. I am much happier than if I stayed to nag my husband into honesty. He knows how to find me should he discover honesty is important.
We would never recommend you Plan B if it was as painful as withdrawal! I am going to Plan B for life because it is so great.
Have you given up on Plan B or do you intend to return to it if he refuses the poly?
All I can say is I very much wish that posters had "ganged up" on me when I was a new poster here. I wish that people had 2x4'd me into having STBX get that poly and questioned me harder.
I only got a fraction of the help you are receiving now and made a lot of mistakes which basically resulted in 3+ years of false recovery that I would not wish on my worst enemy...
[/quote] Thank you so much!!! Thank you for sharing with me about your situation too. It helps to hear others stories... I hope I'm able to help others too someday!!! [/quote]
Hi Starfish, I haven't written on these boards in a few years, just came back (for no particular event, my basics are in my signature), but found your story. Took me a few days to read your entire story but it kept me coming back.
The quote above is what you wrote just over a week ago on 4/3. I wanted you to know that you are already helping others by being so strong!!!! I wanted you to know that!!
If I had been given the same advice through the years maybe my situation would be different. I wish I could be as strong as you have been. I know that I still do not have the full truth and probably never will. I started back to school this past fall and am working on a degree to hopefully be able to support myself when my kids are out of high school. I am basically in this marriage just till I finish school and my kids graduate.
I guess my main reason for writing you is I don't want you to settle like I did for years and years to come. It has taken it's toll on me emotionally and physically. I am not the person I used to be, but trying to find my way back now. Your strength that you have shown so far has been something I wish all BS's could have and know.
Found some of his recent journal entries this morning:
4/7: Had a good and bad day. Got some things accomplished in the morning and went on a friends boat in the afternoon. Felt myself thinking a lot about life and what might be next. Went to baseball game with 2 guy friends. On the way home BW called crying some and asked me to come over. I did and we talked and I spent the night.
4/8: Woke up at the house for the first time in 3 weeks. I walked the dogs, and then left for place I'm staying with friend. BW and I agreed to take the dogs to the park for lunch. It was a wonderful Easter Sunday with her and the dogs. We came back to the house I went swimming and then we talked some more. We got the bills agreement settled at ?/month for BW's part. Still need to get the check. After I left BW went to brother's for Easter dinner.
4/9: BW and I sent some texts about our Sunday together and how we both enjoyed it. She asked me to call her at lunch, and I did. She said even though she had a nice weekend with me she still thinks I haven't told her all the truth, and she is stuck on that. She asked me to think long and hard and she needed an answer this week. I have nothing to give her, but going to write her a letter anyway.
How did you find these journal entries? Is there any way that he could think that you would find them?
No, there is no way he figured I could find them. He has been writing since the day he told me about OW#2. There was even an entry about him meeting with the attorney (per his Dad's request) and he said:
3/27: saw lawyer for advice, and gave me encouraging words that we should fix our marriage. I was happy to hear that.
I am not sure why the journal entries are significant. You already know he enjoys spending time with you and the dogs. What difference does it make that he wrote down on a piece of paper that he enjoys spending time with you and the dogs? You knew that anyway.
As for your lawyer, you need legal not marital advice from the lawyer. What qualifies the lawyer to say you should fix your marriage? And you are already trying to do that anyway, so what difference does that advice make?
Just very puzzled as to what you mean.
I would also like to know the following:
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Have you given up on Plan B or do you intend to return to it if he refuses the poly?
I am not sure why the journal entries are significant. You already know he enjoys spending time with you and the dogs. What difference does it make that he wrote down on a piece of paper that he enjoys spending time with you and the dogs? You knew that anyway.
As for your lawyer, you need legal not marital advice from the lawyer. What qualifies the lawyer to say you should fix your marriage? And you are already trying to do that anyway, so what difference does that advice make?
Just very puzzled as to what you mean.
I would also like to know the following:
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Have you given up on Plan B or do you intend to return to it if he refuses the poly?
I haven't decided what I'm going to do yet. I gave hiim this week per the advice of ML. I'll see what he comes back with in his letter. Could be nothing, but I told him that I need the info this week.
[/quote] Thank you so much!!! Thank you for sharing with me about your situation too. It helps to hear others stories... I hope I'm able to help others too someday!!!
Hi Starfish, I haven't written on these boards in a few years, just came back (for no particular event, my basics are in my signature), but found your story. Took me a few days to read your entire story but it kept me coming back.
The quote above is what you wrote just over a week ago on 4/3. I wanted you to know that you are already helping others by being so strong!!!! I wanted you to know that!!
If I had been given the same advice through the years maybe my situation would be different. I wish I could be as strong as you have been. I know that I still do not have the full truth and probably never will. I started back to school this past fall and am working on a degree to hopefully be able to support myself when my kids are out of high school. I am basically in this marriage just till I finish school and my kids graduate.
I guess my main reason for writing you is I don't want you to settle like I did for years and years to come. It has taken it's toll on me emotionally and physically. I am not the person I used to be, but trying to find my way back now. Your strength that you have shown so far has been something I wish all BS's could have and know.
Just wanted to say that. CW [/quote]
Thank you CW... I appreciate your kind words and hope you are doing well! I'm doing the best I can everyday and just trying to figure out what I want and do not want in life and my marriage. I definitely don't want a false recovery!
SF I am keeping up on your story, can read it but not post when I am away from home, and sometimes I really really want to! I want to tell you that we are all proud of you and how far you've come. I don't like to hear you say you feel ganged up on. Whoever wrote that you have been getting the same advice all along is right, it is YOU who has changed in the last couple of days and not the advice the highly gifted knowledgeable 'been there done that' group of vets is giving you. You were given a PLAN and oh how I would have LOVED to have a PLAN for the decade+ I walked around in la la land while my marriage just crumbled around me. What has changed the last couple of days is that you allowed your sadness to make you breach the plan, and because the instant gratification of being with WH having him say all the things you have been desperate to hear him say (even though they are not true) feels GOOD you have been trying to trick your mind into 're evaluating' the situation and help find proof that perhaps he really IS telling the truth. That is why you brought up the journal entries, because there is 'proof' that he is telling the truth. You are secretly trying to convince people here that maybe, just maybe, he has been right all along and you are just overreacting??? Trust your instinct. Your instinct is telling you, in loud, capital bold letters, HE IS LYING. He has much to hide from you. You are right that not every EA turns into a PA. Maybe, just maybe OW1 was an EA all these years (doubt it). BUT it is ALSO truth that he continues to lie and really tells you he is lying with the comments like "the MC might be able to pull more out of me..." he is basically saying there are more things to tell. It is ALSO truth that he failed a poly, from your own admission not 'slightly' failed but MAJORLY failed. Which means that even if OW1 was an EA and not a PA, there are MORE. More women or people or events that are MORE than what he has already told you. We here who have been privy to the 'trickle truth' method know that the trickle isn't random, it is smallest things to largest things... Is that really OK with you, to not know about the most major of events? The answer is NO, it's not. You are confused emotionally, but in your gut and in your head you know exactly what you need to do. Go back to Plan B.
You seem to have moved many people on these boards, including myself, with your story. Those of us who have wasted YEARS settling until we just couldn't take it anymore are screaming at the top of our lungs, GO BACK TO PLAN B.
Also, I know you have been invested in your story and your crisis situation. But I have been just reading over the forums for the last couple of months, reading other peoples stories, pondering. One of the things that has stood out to me the most is how IDENTICAL the stories are. Sure some posted by the betrayed, some by the wayward. Some by men and some by women. Different ages, different parts of the WORLD even. But adultry seems to have many, many similarities regardless of all of that. Like a movie script which just changes hands from actor to actor, scene to scene. It is truly uncanny. My point here is that everyone thinks their situation is different or unique in some way, the vets are probably wishing they had a dime for every time they heard that! But in my short time of reading through the forums I can tell you, THEY ARE NOT. The vets know exactly where you are headed if you do PB whether that means eventual marital recovery or just PR and moving on, and they know exactly where you are headed if you just settle for what you are trying to convince us is OK with you. They have seen the end of the movie. Please listen to their advice.
SF I am keeping up on your story, can read it but not post when I am away from home, and sometimes I really really want to! I want to tell you that we are all proud of you and how far you've come. I don't like to hear you say you feel ganged up on. Whoever wrote that you have been getting the same advice all along is right, it is YOU who has changed in the last couple of days and not the advice the highly gifted knowledgeable 'been there done that' group of vets is giving you. You were given a PLAN and oh how I would have LOVED to have a PLAN for the decade+ I walked around in la la land while my marriage just crumbled around me. What has changed the last couple of days is that you allowed your sadness to make you breach the plan, and because the instant gratification of being with WH having him say all the things you have been desperate to hear him say (even though they are not true) feels GOOD you have been trying to trick your mind into 're evaluating' the situation and help find proof that perhaps he really IS telling the truth. That is why you brought up the journal entries, because there is 'proof' that he is telling the truth. You are secretly trying to convince people here that maybe, just maybe, he has been right all along and you are just overreacting??? Trust your instinct. Your instinct is telling you, in loud, capital bold letters, HE IS LYING. He has much to hide from you. You are right that not every EA turns into a PA. Maybe, just maybe OW1 was an EA all these years (doubt it). BUT it is ALSO truth that he continues to lie and really tells you he is lying with the comments like "the MC might be able to pull more out of me..." he is basically saying there are more things to tell. It is ALSO truth that he failed a poly, from your own admission not 'slightly' failed but MAJORLY failed. Which means that even if OW1 was an EA and not a PA, there are MORE. More women or people or events that are MORE than what he has already told you. We here who have been privy to the 'trickle truth' method know that the trickle isn't random, it is smallest things to largest things... Is that really OK with you, to not know about the most major of events? The answer is NO, it's not. You are confused emotionally, but in your gut and in your head you know exactly what you need to do. Go back to Plan B.
You seem to have moved many people on these boards, including myself, with your story. Those of us who have wasted YEARS settling until we just couldn't take it anymore are screaming at the top of our lungs, GO BACK TO PLAN B.
Thank you and I know you are right... Yes, I have changed. The pain was really starting to get to me and I haven't been able to grieve yet, as I know that I don't know everything. I know there are things that have been hidden from me and maybe he has buried them or can't force to bring me more pain for his selfish actions. I haven't once been angry at him telling me the truth. He did mention in MC that he thought it was a mistake to tell me about OW#2, because of what it has done to us. The MC got onto him for thinking this way and let him know that lying and withholding information is what would cause the demise of our marriage. She asked him to start over with the truth (all of it) and that is when he told in the last letter he sent me that I reported yesterday. He is withholding out of fear... Fear that I will leave him or never want him again. My IC helped me to pull his fears out with simple questions last Friday.
When you want to convince others of something, and also convince yourself, you look for evidence for that. His journal seems a bit stark. Who writes like that? Is it on paper? In his phone or computer?
If someone was really writing about their struggles and their life, then why would they write it out so clinically? Could it be he is going to use this as proof in court or something? When was the first time he wrote this journal?
Yes, he's afraid of losing you but even more importantly, he's afraid to face his despicable behavior. He's been running wild on his work related trips for years and getting away with it. He ENJOYS it and recovery means giving all of that up. And also having the world know about his disgusting secret life.
It's about you but it's also about him. In a a major way because if he really cared about you and your marriage he would do everything in his power to make this right and he's not there. Not even a fraction of the way.
He is withholding out of fear... Fear that I will leave him or never want him again. My IC helped me to pull his fears out with simple questions last Friday.
That makes no sense, Starfish. You have been very clear that the truth will not make you leave. Even a child would understand you explained you would stay for the truth and only leave due to lies. NO ONE would be afraid to trust such a strong, calm and compassionate wife with the truth UNLESS THEY STILL HAVE STUFF TO HIDE.
He isnt hiding out of fear you will leave,Because you have TOLD HIM YOU WONT. He is not STUPID nor is he deaf.
He is only hiding out of fear he wont be able to cake-eat any more with the OW.
When you want to convince others of something, and also convince yourself, you look for evidence for that. His journal seems a bit stark. Who writes like that? Is it on paper? In his phone or computer?
If someone was really writing about their struggles and their life, then why would they write it out so clinically? Could it be he is going to use this as proof in court or something? When was the first time he wrote this journal?
He started writing it after discovery of OW#2. There isn't anything in it that he could use against me in court... We are in a 50/50 state.
Seeing my IC this morning... Already took a Xanax, which I've been taking every morning. Still haven't started my AD's. Feeling unsure about a lot of things right now and feeling so down...
He started writing it after discovery of OW#2. There isn't anything in it that he could use against me in court... We are in a 50/50 state.
I think he found the keylogger starfish. I also think the journals are for your benefit. Has he logged into anything where he has changed the passwords? If not...he found the keylogger. That is my guess.
Didn't you post earlier that he turned off the gps? He probably got suspicious when he saw that.
Seeing my IC this morning... Already took a Xanax, which I've been taking every morning. Still haven't started my AD's. Feeling unsure about a lot of things right now and feeling so down...
Its not really surprising is it Starfish?
You told him to get on board with a poly and make an appointment to do that this week and his reply is .... what exactly?
Its no wonder you're depression is starting to bite when he is doing ZILCH, NADA, ZERO to heal you. He's too busy writing fake diaries.
This kind of depression is NOT temporary and we have seen it land BWs in the hospital with nervous breakdowns.
You offered him another chance - has he agreed to take you up on it this week - enthusiastically?
I agree with everyone about the journal. You didn't give much info about where you found it, etc. but it seems very, very odd to me. First, like Scottie said, clinical. Logistical. Not a 'journal' as much as a logistical account of how he spent his day. Who logs that information and why? It would be one thing if he was a 'journaler' who historically wrote about his life and the revelations it brought him. But since he just started to keep this log of the way he has run his days, and conveniently left it in a place that YOU could find it...leads me to believe it is either for legal purposes and if that is not it, for the purpose of using it to support his lies to you. And, if thats the case, it seems to be working.
He started writing it after discovery of OW#2. There isn't anything in it that he could use against me in court... We are in a 50/50 state.
I think he found the keylogger starfish. I also think the journals are for your benefit. Has he logged into anything where he has changed the passwords? If not...he found the keylogger. That is my guess.
Didn't you post earlier that he turned off the gps? He probably got suspicious when he saw that.
He has no way of knowing about the KL, because it's on the laptop and I've had the laptop since the KL was installed. He changed his passwords a few times and I figured the last one out. The time he turned off his GPS was when I called the police on him and he was mad and didn't want to talk to me. He was at his brothers house that night. He hasn't turned off the GPS since... just that one night.
He could be keeping track of things to share with his IC, as we were both doing the same thing while going through MC before to share what had transpired during the week.
I'm the one that called it a journal, maybe I should have said calendar events. I do the same thing in my own calendar, because it's easy to forget what I did on a certain day and I like to look back and remember or see what is coming up in the week ahead. I do the exact same thing and I have no alterior motive. I use the information to discuss weekly events or things that transpired during my week with my IC.
I agree with everyone about the journal. You didn't give much info about where you found it, etc. but it seems very, very odd to me. First, like Scottie said, clinical. Logistical. Not a 'journal' as much as a logistical account of how he spent his day. Who logs that information and why? It would be one thing if he was a 'journaler' who historically wrote about his life and the revelations it brought him. But since he just started to keep this log of the way he has run his days, and conveniently left it in a place that YOU could find it...leads me to believe it is either for legal purposes and if that is not it, for the purpose of using it to support his lies to you. And, if thats the case, it seems to be working.
It isn't top secret information or anything. I only found it because I figured out his password, so it wasn't like he left it open or obvious for me to figure out. This password was different from the other passwords and I figured it out by luck.
You could even say "I certainly would love it if you could pass a polygraph to show you are not hiding anything. Pass one. Make that your goal honey dear. Find a way to make it work with you and not against you huggy bear."
If you figured out the password, that tells me that he made it something that you could figure out.
Are you thinking now that he is being honest that there is nothing else and the failed poly is a fluke?
And that the indicators that he is being dishonest like the reluctance to take the test and sending you the email about being nervous about failing the test (that the polygrapher told you himself was indicative of guilt) before you had the result etc was all just a terrible coincidence?
This is my concern, too Susie Q. All I see is a search for hope, not a search for facts.
Why the journal entries are relevant or hopeful I have no idea.. or why a lawyers off the cuff advice to 'fix things' is hopeful I too have no idea.
In Plan A a BW is often an unstoppable snoop - relentlessly looking for facts.
In Plan B, the mantra is simple - come to me with your proof or dont bother me.
But when a BW enters Plan C, she often gets very confused and scrapes around grasping at straws and looking for hope in every cloud that passes.
Then because she is hopeful, she is too scared to take any real action to protect herself and the integrity of her marriage with actions. She is scared she will screw up the hopeful signals she has scraped togehter.
A BW on these boards recently broke Plan B again and again into Plan C and i thought she was a hopeless case. However when she eventually came back on board to MB, she described Plan C as Plan Confusion and said she had lost all interest in her saving her marriage because hse had hoped and hoped so fruitlessly for so long.
I'm the one that called it a journal, maybe I should have said calendar events... I do the exact same thing and I have no alterior motive. I use the information to discuss weekly events or things that transpired during my week with my IC.
That sounds like a reasonable explanation for his entries. I'm not sure how that will help him to decide to become honest though. Just another day...
Starfish, just remember that we are your friends. We have been where you are and we have found peace. We want you to find peace too.
I'm the one that called it a journal, maybe I should have said calendar events... I do the exact same thing and I have no alterior motive. I use the information to discuss weekly events or things that transpired during my week with my IC.
That sounds like a reasonable explanation for his entries. I'm not sure how that will help him to decide to become honest though. Just another day...
Starfish, just remember that we are your friends. We have been where you are and we have found peace. We want you to find peace too.
I sometimes wish that MB was a little more separate for the WS's and BS's to post. I think it would be good if my WH came on here, but I'd be too afraid that he would find my thread and I'm just not ready for that yet. I still need to keep this support that I have away for now...
I wrote my own letter today... I was able to get more info from him after talking to my IC last Friday before I went into Plan B, so I decided to write him a letter, since he was at work and I felt like writing anyway.
WH,
I am writing you because I have been thinking a lot about everything that has transpired and been revealed over the past few months. �
I have come to realize, including through your own admission, that you have some major issues when it comes to communication and honesty. �You have admitted this to me multiple times in your own words by saying:
"I could not communicate with you."
"There is nothing else to tell you."
"Lying comes natural to me for some reason."
"I can't make stuff up."
"I have not been completely honest about OW#1 over the last two years."
"I've told you everything."
"I'm not saying there may not be smaller things a counselor may pry out of me over time...."
In between all of these comments from you, I have received more and more information. �Things you have revealed and been honest about and mistakes you've made. �Have I received or heard everything...? �No, I have not.
I need you to start communicating with me, to open up and trust me enough to tell me the truth. �Without communication and honesty from you, I will never be able to get past all of this, learn to trust you, forgive you or be able to move forward in rebuilding the foundation of our relationship that has been crumbled. �Our foundation needs to be built back up and that can only begin with you communicating with me and being honest. �Talk to me as your friend and your wife. �Only you can change your poor communication and lack of honesty and you have the choice to start that now if you want to rebuild our marriage.
More than anything, I'm willing to work on our marriage and do what it takes (no matter how difficult) to rebuild our relationship and lives together. �I have been very open and honest with you in letting you know where I stand; �that I'm willing to stick it out through the good, bad, happy and sad. �Are you willing to do the same? �A marriage is a partnership and it cannot survive if only one person is willing to do all of the work. �If you want to be in this marriage and put forth some major effort, as painful as it might be, I'll be here.
I have explained to you that I'm here, I love you and want our marriage to be stronger and more loving than we ever thought possible. �I would love to build a new life with you that has a strong foundation to build from. �I cannot do this alone and deserve a partner that is willing, strong and man enough to do whatever it takes to make things right to start anew.
I am here when you are willing to communicate and be open and honest with me.
I sometimes wish that MB was a little more separate for the WS's and BS's to post. I think it would be good if my WH came on here, but I'd be too afraid that he would find my thread and I'm just not ready for that yet. I still need to keep this support that I have away for now...
Why is that starfish? The site wouldn't help him at all right now. Addicts who are getting their fix exactly the way they like don't want any help. If he ever genuinely wants help, he only has to say he's ready to do everything to heal himself and you would help him right?
Why would anyone with a forgiving, wonderful spouse hesitate even a minute?
I sometimes wish that MB was a little more separate for the WS's and BS's to post. I think it would be good if my WH came on here, but I'd be too afraid that he would find my thread and I'm just not ready for that yet. I still need to keep this support that I have away for now...
Why is that starfish? The site wouldn't help him at all right now. Addicts who are getting their fix exactly the way they like don't want any help. If he ever genuinely wants help, he only has to say he's ready to do everything to heal himself and you would help him right?
Why would anyone with a forgiving, wonderful spouse hesitate even a minute?
I wrote my own letter today... I was able to get more info from him after talking to my IC last Friday before I went into Plan B, so I decided to write him a letter, since he was at work and I felt like writing anyway.
WH,
I am writing you because I have been thinking a lot about everything that has transpired and been revealed over the past few months. �
I have come to realize, including through your own admission, that you have some major issues when it comes to communication and honesty. �You have admitted this to me multiple times in your own words by saying:
"I could not communicate with you."
"There is nothing else to tell you."
"Lying comes natural to me for some reason."
"I can't make stuff up."
"I have not been completely honest about OW#1 over the last two years."
"I've told you everything."
"I'm not saying there may not be smaller things a counselor may pry out of me over time...."
In between all of these comments from you, I have received more and more information. �Things you have revealed and been honest about and mistakes you've made. �Have I received or heard everything...? �No, I have not.
I need you to start communicating with me, to open up and trust me enough to tell me the truth. �Without communication and honesty from you, I will never be able to get past all of this, learn to trust you, forgive you or be able to move forward in rebuilding the foundation of our relationship that has been crumbled. �Our foundation needs to be built back up and that can only begin with you communicating with me and being honest. �Talk to me as your friend and your wife. �Only you can change your poor communication and lack of honesty and you have the choice to start that now if you want to rebuild our marriage.
More than anything, I'm willing to work on our marriage and do what it takes (no matter how difficult) to rebuild our relationship and lives together. �I have been very open and honest with you in letting you know where I stand; �that I'm willing to stick it out through the good, bad, happy and sad. �Are you willing to do the same? �A marriage is a partnership and it cannot survive if only one person is willing to do all of the work. �If you want to be in this marriage and put forth some major effort, as painful as it might be, I'll be here.
I have explained to you that I'm here, I love you and want our marriage to be stronger and more loving than we ever thought possible. �I would love to build a new life with you that has a strong foundation to build from. �I cannot do this alone and deserve a partner that is willing, strong and man enough to do whatever it takes to make things right to start anew.
I am here when you are willing to communicate and be open and honest with me.
All my love, BW
Star, this is actually a very good letter, but for what purpose is it intended? If it's a letter of re-entry into Plan B, then great, fantastic, awesome, bitchin', etc, etc.
Otherwise, what's the point? You have already explained this to him in your original Plan B letter (and MULTIPLE times face to face) and he won't buy into this one anymore than he did the last one. Why? Because you have shown him that you are not serious about this. And, frankly my dear, you aren't! With you breaking your PB so quickly, you've proven to him that he's still in control of situation. In his mind, he has you (and her)...hook, line and sinker. Is this really what you want? Because this is where you are.
When you broke your PB you went straight into a full blown Plan C which is MB lingo for a helluva lot more broken heart and pain than you are experiencing now. Are you prepared for that? Well, prepared or not, that's the path you're on if you continue in this fashion.
I know you are hurting in a way you never thought possible, and believe me, we all feel for you. Remember, we've all been there, done that. But what steps are you willing to take to help yourself? Everyone here has pretty much done all they can for the time being to help you.
I was doing what my IC asked me to do first today and then I was told to focus on taking care of myself and think about what I really want and need, etc. I know you all want to know what plan I'm in, but I haven't decided. I guess you could say that I'm in a mild Plan B. I think he realizes that I'm not going to back down for the truth. He hasn't contacted me since I sent the letter late this afternoon. I did tell him that I need the truth by the end of the week per ML. I will give him until the end of the week to see if he will come clean and then make a decision from there.
BW, � The last 7-8 days have been brutal to my emotions, feeling, stress levels, and all of it in between.� I have felt severly depressed at times.� Saturday on our friend's boat he asked me what was wrong, because I guess I was being very quiet.� I just answered that I need to figure out my life, the next step, where I'm going.� That's how I feel.� My life is up side down.� I don't know if you hate me, love me, want me, or care at times.� I feel nothing has changed from two months ago.� The weekends are nice spending time with you, and then the weekdays are a nightmare.� I need structure in my life and I have�none right now.� I don't have a key to my own house, I don't even feel welcomed there.� I don't want to be gone from the dogs to long, because I love them, they are our kids.� I can't stop thinking about you and the dogs, our home, our family.� It all keeps me from sleeping and concetrating at work. I have to figure out the next step in life, and have to figure it out soon. � I love you, and I want to still make our relationship and marriage work, but in order to give you some of the answers your looking for, I need to figure out WH. I have only been to two counseling sessions, and last weeks session was more about her learning about me and my family history. We were not able really to get into more of what is going to help me yet. In order to have goals for me, for our relationship, and for our marriage, I need to know WH and what I'm really looking for in our future to give you those goals you seek. I want to at least see my couselor this week before I can sit down and think about us and our future, my goals for our future, my being the person you seek, an honest person. Please give me this time I need. I know your pushing for these answers, but I need you let me get the help I need to give you those answers. � I love you and hope to see you soon. � Love�always WH
If your IC advises you to have contact, feel free to ignore them.
Do you know what we read in that letter?
BLAH BLAH BLAH I'm still with OW BLAH BLAH I want cake BLAH BLAH you are just my side dish BLAH.
He is in all likelihood not even seeing a counselor.
I already stated that I broke Plan B... I guess that makes me a terrible person or at least human. I am not in any plan right now... Everybody here is asking me what plan I am in and i am on the femce right now, because I did what ML suggested and sent him an email after I broke my plan to give him until the end of the week to tell me the truth.
He is seeing a counselor and I do know this for a fact.
starfish, I so wish I could feel happy for you, but I can't. I have nothing but fear for you because I know where you are headed. You are trying so hard to just bury this without getting the truth in the hopes that your marriage can survive without the truth. But it can't. I so wish it could. But truth has to be the first step.
You won't be able to sweep this under the rug for long. You will wonder every day what he is lying about. And your resentment and anger will grow and grow. You won't be able to sweep it all away.
Without it you will go crazy wondering. You hope you can suck it up and live without it, but you won't be able to. The reason is because trust can never be restored as long as he has secrets with the OW to which you are not privy.
And no, he is not remorseful. If he were remorseful, it would be backed up by actions, not by drama. Any halfwit wayward knows how to cry and carry on about how sorry they are. But how "remorseful" is someone who continues to lie? They are not remorseful at all.
I am sad for you today because I know this will not turn out good.
BW, � The last 7-8 days have been brutal to my emotions, feeling, stress levels, and all of it in between.� I have felt severly depressed at times.� Saturday on our friend's boat he asked me what was wrong, because I guess I was being very quiet.� I just answered that I need to figure out my life, the next step, where I'm going.� That's how I feel.� My life is up side down.� I don't know if you hate me, love me, want me, or care at times.� I feel nothing has changed from two months ago.� The weekends are nice spending time with you, and then the weekdays are a nightmare.� I need structure in my life and I have�none right now.� I don't have a key to my own house, I don't even feel welcomed there.� I don't want to be gone from the dogs to long, because I love them, they are our kids.� I can't stop thinking about you and the dogs, our home, our family.� It all keeps me from sleeping and concetrating at work. I have to figure out the next step in life, and have to figure it out soon. � I love you, and I want to still make our relationship and marriage work, but in order to give you some of the answers your looking for, I need to figure out WH. I have only been to two counseling sessions, and last weeks session was more about her learning about me and my family history. We were not able really to get into more of what is going to help me yet. In order to have goals for me, for our relationship, and for our marriage, I need to know WH and what I'm really looking for in our future to give you those goals you seek. I want to at least see my couselor this week before I can sit down and think about us and our future, my goals for our future, my being the person you seek, an honest person. Please give me this time I need. I know your pushing for these answers, but I need you let me get the help I need to give you those answers. � I love you and hope to see you soon. � Love�always WH
Here's instructions for a WS to find himself. This is from Pepperband's notable posts collection.
Quote
"We need to be apart so I can find myself" What a cute little euphamism that is, finding yourself or finding out who you are.
Many of my dear friends here no that I am a big believer in using a gentle touch on those unfortunate souls who either "Need to find themselves" or "Need to find out who they are" before they can come home to their families.
So, as a public service to these unfortunate souls I have composed "Finding yourself for Dummies"
First, finding yourself... 1. If you can't find yourself, try looking in your shoes. More than likely you will be there.
2. Do not bother looking where your children or responsibilities are, though that would be a reasonable place to look we know you are not there.
3. If need be, go to the police station and give the desk sargeant an 8x10 or you and ask to have an APB put out since you can't find yourself.
4. Ask your child to point to their mom/dad, if you are not sure which one you are reach into your pants and feel around, if there is a penis there, you are dad, if not, you're probably mom.
Now one of these tried and true methods ought to help you find yourself, but it probable dark so let's help you see better. Reach behind you, palms facing you, arms hanging down and grab. That's your butt. Now reach in that and look for a large round object, that is your head. Now, with both hands pull as hard as you can. You are now performing recto-cranial extraction.
Ok, now you have found yourself. We are making progress here! Now we need to find out "who you are". This is not so hard. Look around the house - if there are one or more particularly short little people ask one of them, they are called children, they probably know the answer as it was one of their first two or 3 words. Not able to talk yet? No sweat.
Look for the full grown person with the red eyes who looks like they haven't slept in a while - they probably know. They aren't home??? let's keep looking.
Try looking in a desk or filing cabinet. Look for folders named "mortgage", "Utilities", Or "Marriage license". There will probably be two names here - you are one of those. So we have found you and narrowed it down to two people.
Now look and see if there is a wallet around. Remember that? Little pocket sized leather folding thingy. Look for something that says drivers license. There should be a name. Now find a mirror (Glass thingy in the bathroom), look at the picture on the driver's license and the face in the mirror, if they match, the name on the license is WHO YOU ARE. If they don't, check those papers you found - you are the other name.
Now that you have found yourself and know who you are go find the other full grown person in the house and introduce yourself. Start out with "I'm sorry I could not find myself or figure out who I was, I know now"
Next, knock off the drama, quit being melodramatic and start being mom/dad, husband/wife like you are supposed to and quit with the childish theatrics because the final piece is WHERE YOU ARE. This is called the real world where people depend on you to act like a grownup and keep track of details like who and where you are. The little people in the house are kinda sorta counting on you too.
If this doesn't work and you have to take a journey to answer these questions there is a chance that when you find yourself you will be alone, without a house, without a spouse, without children who love you and without a penny. That is how my XW found herself a year later. Trust me, my plan outlined earlier is better.
Ahhhhhhhhh.... okay, I needed to get that out since the day my XW took off into the sunset and another post yanked that rant out of me. If your WS tells you that they need time away to find themselves and discover who they are print it out for them. If they can't follow the directions make sure the door doesn't hit them in the rear and injure their head. There is a reason I harp on not putting up with crap from WS's who like to play little selfish games - if you indulge them they keep playing them.
I'm better now. Thanks for letting me take a good long vent... maybe I am finally getting my old, dead, buried, BS issues from the days before I met J out of my system.
BW, � The last 7-8 days have been brutal to my emotions, feeling, stress levels, and all of it in between.� I have felt severly depressed at times.� Saturday on our friend's boat he asked me what was wrong, because I guess I was being very quiet.� I just answered that I need to figure out my life, the next step, where I'm going.� That's how I feel.� My life is up side down.� I don't know if you hate me, love me, want me, or care at times.� I feel nothing has changed from two months ago.� The weekends are nice spending time with you, and then the weekdays are a nightmare.� I need structure in my life and I have�none right now.� I don't have a key to my own house, I don't even feel welcomed there.� I don't want to be gone from the dogs to long, because I love them, they are our kids.� I can't stop thinking about you and the dogs, our home, our family.� It all keeps me from sleeping and concetrating at work. I have to figure out the next step in life, and have to figure it out soon. � I love you, and I want to still make our relationship and marriage work, but in order to give you some of the answers your looking for, I need to figure out WH. I have only been to two counseling sessions, and last weeks session was more about her learning about me and my family history. We were not able really to get into more of what is going to help me yet. In order to have goals for me, for our relationship, and for our marriage, I need to know WH and what I'm really looking for in our future to give you those goals you seek. I want to at least see my couselor this week before I can sit down and think about us and our future, my goals for our future, my being the person you seek, an honest person. Please give me this time I need. I know your pushing for these answers, but I need you let me get the help I need to give you those answers. � I love you and hope to see you soon. � Love�always WH
Here's instructions for a WS to find himself. This is from Pepperband's notable posts collection.
Quote
"We need to be apart so I can find myself" What a cute little euphamism that is, finding yourself or finding out who you are.
Many of my dear friends here no that I am a big believer in using a gentle touch on those unfortunate souls who either "Need to find themselves" or "Need to find out who they are" before they can come home to their families.
So, as a public service to these unfortunate souls I have composed "Finding yourself for Dummies"
First, finding yourself... 1. If you can't find yourself, try looking in your shoes. More than likely you will be there.
2. Do not bother looking where your children or responsibilities are, though that would be a reasonable place to look we know you are not there.
3. If need be, go to the police station and give the desk sargeant an 8x10 or you and ask to have an APB put out since you can't find yourself.
4. Ask your child to point to their mom/dad, if you are not sure which one you are reach into your pants and feel around, if there is a penis there, you are dad, if not, you're probably mom.
Now one of these tried and true methods ought to help you find yourself, but it probable dark so let's help you see better. Reach behind you, palms facing you, arms hanging down and grab. That's your butt. Now reach in that and look for a large round object, that is your head. Now, with both hands pull as hard as you can. You are now performing recto-cranial extraction.
Ok, now you have found yourself. We are making progress here! Now we need to find out "who you are". This is not so hard. Look around the house - if there are one or more particularly short little people ask one of them, they are called children, they probably know the answer as it was one of their first two or 3 words. Not able to talk yet? No sweat.
Look for the full grown person with the red eyes who looks like they haven't slept in a while - they probably know. They aren't home??? let's keep looking.
Try looking in a desk or filing cabinet. Look for folders named "mortgage", "Utilities", Or "Marriage license". There will probably be two names here - you are one of those. So we have found you and narrowed it down to two people.
Now look and see if there is a wallet around. Remember that? Little pocket sized leather folding thingy. Look for something that says drivers license. There should be a name. Now find a mirror (Glass thingy in the bathroom), look at the picture on the driver's license and the face in the mirror, if they match, the name on the license is WHO YOU ARE. If they don't, check those papers you found - you are the other name.
Now that you have found yourself and know who you are go find the other full grown person in the house and introduce yourself. Start out with "I'm sorry I could not find myself or figure out who I was, I know now"
Next, knock off the drama, quit being melodramatic and start being mom/dad, husband/wife like you are supposed to and quit with the childish theatrics because the final piece is WHERE YOU ARE. This is called the real world where people depend on you to act like a grownup and keep track of details like who and where you are. The little people in the house are kinda sorta counting on you too.
If this doesn't work and you have to take a journey to answer these questions there is a chance that when you find yourself you will be alone, without a house, without a spouse, without children who love you and without a penny. That is how my XW found herself a year later. Trust me, my plan outlined earlier is better.
Ahhhhhhhhh.... okay, I needed to get that out since the day my XW took off into the sunset and another post yanked that rant out of me. If your WS tells you that they need time away to find themselves and discover who they are print it out for them. If they can't follow the directions make sure the door doesn't hit them in the rear and injure their head. There is a reason I harp on not putting up with crap from WS's who like to play little selfish games - if you indulge them they keep playing them.
I'm better now. Thanks for letting me take a good long vent... maybe I am finally getting my old, dead, buried, BS issues from the days before I met J out of my system.
Star - I say this with all the tenderness in my heart toward you - hope is not a plan. In my profession we talk about preferential bias - where we see what we want to see, hope to see, dream of seeing - but it ain't there. We can literally make ourselves see things that are. not. there.
Your own dependence on validation from your husband, no matter how waytard he is, will break you on the rocks of his lies, and his wayward self-centeredness.
Therapy isn't going to fix him. It will only give him new lines to try out on you to convince you he can't help himself, can't change and please take him back anyway and let him live his double life.
I think it might be a good time for you to browse the Plan B Cafe - start getting yourself squared away for your own sanity. Have a strategy in place so that you never let yourself call him again before he gives you the facts.
I understand not wanting details. But the poly was never about details, was it? It was a simple yes or no question - asked several different ways.
All you need to know is if he's still attached to any woman besides you in any way - via contact, via emotional attachment, via trinkets and is he keeping those doors open and bridges unburned? If you truly don't want details, I understand. But you need to know these facts about your life with him. You need to know that he's going to live an honest life going forward - if he's had enough of the lies so that he'll abandon any and all self-deception or deception to you.
Visit the link - there's a wealth of shares from people who have had to focus their thoughts onto their own personal recovery and away from the wayward.
Maybe it's time to collect some loonies in a jar (ask Scotland).
Here's the first post from that thread with some emphasis for you:
Quote
Originally Posted by KaylaAndy
I've been cooking on this thread for a few days. 2Much2Lose, Tully, Bestfriend, and many more of you are dealing with the same issue.
A number of you have been called on the carpet by well-meaning folks here and in your family for stepping into the Plan B process. They don't understand the purpose of Plan B.
I've been reading "As A Man Thinketh" by James Allen. Google this title and you can actually download the book free from asamanthinketh.net
In particular, I love this quote for betrayed spouses:
Quote
A person cannot directly choose his circumstances, but he can choose his thoughts, and so indirectly, yet surely, shape his circumstances."
This is the greatest gift of Plan B.
Before you removed yourself from the drama equation you were in what we call on the farm "a manure pit". Everywhere, the stench of cheating filled your nostrils - your thoughts and breath were consumed by getting the smell to stop!
Well, that doesn't lead you to think of how to better yourself, your life, and it's difficult to think of anything but the past - back when the marriage didn't stink!
Your wayward spouse accuses you of being the cause of the stinky marriage. But there's only one thing that causes this kind of stench - a wayward heart. And wayward hearts attract stenchy affair partners because they can't tell that they are the source of the stench.
But here's the big truth....
It's not the wayward spouse who is your primary problem.
....
...
..
.
Yes - you read that right. It's yourself. The lacking of any sense of self-worth... by degrees. You believe their blame that you harmed the marriage and they were on their way out well before affair person came around... Yeah right. When it's their own SBDs (silent but deadlies) sabotaging the sanctity of their vows.
If you are to become all that you were meant to be in a marriage, you must be whole, all by yourself.
Plan B is a breath of fresh air. You can think of how to better your life a lot easier when it doesn't stink so bad your eyes water. However, a partial Plan B doesn't accomplish this.
The most impressive moments in the lives of those who share their Plan B progress here – Mimi stands out when she put her dream house up for sale. Rinn stands out when she moved to the shelter. Charlotte when she hired Shiny. And most recently, Tully - yes - you - though you've been battered by your mother in law (a vicarious beating from your husband, actually) you took the Mimi approach and left the dream house.
How would you respond to people if you absolutely knew that you were worth the fidelity requirement?
How would you respond to your wayward trying to break down your Plan B?
Mimi got to that point - she absolutely knew her worth and she would no longer tolerate life with a double-minded man. Her knowledge of her own value is the reason she is such an inspiration here.
Rinn - you know what you thought of yourself before you left the marital home - you left, trusting in the words and knowledge of others, as well as that finality knowledge - you couldn't go on one more day under the threat of verbal, sexual, physical and emotional abuse.
So Plan Bs in progress and Plan B Wanna-B-B-ers, listen up!
Share on this thread who you are - ideal - without your WS defining you. And then read it every day like an affirmation. Remember who you are - sons and daughters of a heavenly father who loves you; find that perfection and let your thoughts lead you to live in the solution instead of the problem.
Bob Proctor wrote a book I've had on my shelf for years. He says:
[quote] You're either living in the problem or you're living in the solution.
Plan B is the way to live in the solution. Let the wayward clean up the stench!
Star - I say this with all the tenderness in my heart toward you - hope is not a plan. In my profession we talk about preferential bias - where we see what we want to see, hope to see, dream of seeing - but it ain't there. We can literally make ourselves see things that are. not. there.
Your own dependence on validation from your husband, no matter how waytard he is, will break you on the rocks of his lies, and his wayward self-centeredness.
Therapy isn't going to fix him. It will only give him new lines to try out on you to convince you he can't help himself, can't change and please take him back anyway and let him live his double life.
I think it might be a good time for you to browse the Plan B Cafe - start getting yourself squared away for your own sanity. Have a strategy in place so that you never let yourself call him again before he gives you the facts.
I understand not wanting details. But the poly was never about details, was it? It was a simple yes or no question - asked several different ways.
All you need to know is if he's still attached to any woman besides you in any way - via contact, via emotional attachment, via trinkets and is he keeping those doors open and bridges unburned? If you truly don't want details, I understand. But you need to know these facts about your life with him. You need to know that he's going to live an honest life going forward - if he's had enough of the lies so that he'll abandon any and all self-deception or deception to you.
Visit the link - there's a wealth of shares from people who have had to focus their thoughts onto their own personal recovery and away from the wayward.
Maybe it's time to collect some loonies in a jar (ask Scotland).
I agree with you... I'm not planning on responding to his letter. He is obviously still in a major fog and I don't have time for him to find himself. I highly doubt I will get anything else from him this week... I just have a feeling...
Starfish, I have just finished reading the marathon that is your story...
Keep holding your head up high. Hold on tight to your integrity and go back to basics. Demand truth 1st and the rest will follow.
It's so so easy to get caught up in the emotion of it all (meaning how you miss him and miss your previous life - hell I know allll about that!). You're doing a wonderful job just stick to the advice from ML and put on your tunnel vision so that you get the answers that you need to repair your marriage.
I know how sick you are feeling and how soul destroying this all is. Just wanted you to know that you're not alone in these feelings. Cyber hugs !
I guess you could say that I'm in a mild Plan B. .... I did tell him that I need the truth by the end of the week per ML. I will give him until the end of the week to see if he will come clean and then make a decision from there.
There is no such thing as a mild Plan B! Plan B is dark and protects you. Plan B says I will be safe, in my own life until you give me truth and safety.
Plan C is where the BS waits in the gutter. They have been kicked there, betrayed by their spouse and with fresh refusals from the spouse to help them out. In plan C, the BS does not get up and inside to safety. They say 'OK! I will wait here in the gutter for you and I will hope!'
Which is really not a plan at all.
Yes ML told you to get the truth this week, but he is refusing to make any appointment this week.
And why should he? He doesn't take you seriously.
How long are you going to wait in the gutter for the remorse which will never arrive? He is already showing signs of glee and entitlement on the back of you breaking Plan B. He thinks he has it made now. Two women (if not more) for life.
Originally Posted by starfish75
He just emailed me...
BW, � The last 7-8 days have been brutal to my emotions, feeling, stress levels, and all of it in between.� I have felt severly depressed at times.
Waaaaaaaaahmbulance! I won't take action to heal your betrayal, I only care about MY feelings, my hurt and my own self-inflicted wounds.
� Saturday on our friend's boat he asked me what was wrong, because I guess I was being very quiet.� I just answered that I need to figure out my life, the next step, where I'm going.� That's how I feel.� My life is up side down.
Its much easier for me to make vague statements about 'figuring out my life' than to actually man up and take the simple actions my wounded wife requires of me.
� I don't know if you hate me, love me, want me, or care at times.� Waaaaaahmbulance.....!. Actually I know I am damn lucky you still talk to me at all and I must be deaf if I don't know you love me. Its just that manipulating you into emotions of guilt is SO MUCH EASIER than quitting my addiction.
I feel nothing has changed from two months ago. Well, I have made sure nothing has changed by continually refusing to change! I get double points for then blaming you for the lack of change!
� The weekends are nice spending time with you, and then the weekdays are a nightmare.� I need structure in my life and I have�none right now.� I don't have a key to my own house, I don't even feel welcomed there.� Since you've given me an inch by breaking Plan B. I now wish to take a mile. Notice how I don't say anything to do with being welcomed back the minute I take a poly.
I don't want to be gone from the dogs to long, because I love them, they are our kids.� I can't stop thinking about you and the dogs, our home, our family.� My wants, my needs, what I must have. My addiction doesn't leave me much time to think about YOUR feelings!
It all keeps me from sleeping and concetrating at work. I have to figure out the next step in life, and have to figure it out soon. Are you buying this stuff? I really need you to, so I can get back to cake eating. I need that cake. � I love you, and I want to still make our relationship and marriage work, but in order to give you some of the answers your looking for, I need to figure out WH. An endless task (I hope); this should persuade you to waste about twenty years on me. Of course I could book a poly THIS WEEK - but that would be considering YOUR feelings wouldn't it?! � I have only been to two counseling sessions, and last weeks session was more about her learning about me and my family history. We were not able really to get into more of what is going to help me yet. In order to have goals for me, for our relationship, and for our marriage, I need to know WH and what I'm really looking for in our future to give you those goals you seek. I want to at least see my couselor this week before I can sit down and think about us and our future, my goals for our future, my being the person you seek, an honest person. Please give me this time I need. Gimme 20 years to life filled with uncertainty and misery. Just suck it up wouldya? � I know your pushing for these answers, but I need you let me get the help I need to give you those answers. I want I want I want I want. �� I love you and hope to see you soon. Mmmmm cake. ��� Love�always WH
Why not just let him 'find himself' in Plan B? It would motivate him to be a grown up like nothing else. But most impotantly you would not be around to have him spit in your face like this.
I don't think he is a bad person, Starfish its just that he's an addict at this point in his life. Breaking Plan B gives the alcoholic the keys to the liquor cabinet.
Tell him you need that poly booked within five days (its already been two, am I right?)
In the meantime you need to plan your return to Plan B in case he refuses or fails again.
I tossed and turned a lot last night.� I want to be home soon, I love you.� What will it take? � Love, WH
How should I respond to this? He can't be that much of a complete idiot... Ok, well maybe he is... LOL!
Unfortunately he thinks he's king, now. He thinks no woman could live without him and you will accept crumbs such as asking 'what will it take?' Instead of doing whatever it takes.
I would just reply: 'You need to have the polygraph booked, taken and passed by (whichever day makes up one week since you gave him the one week deadline). That's what it will take. Make the arrangements today, if you have not done so already, and let me know when it is taking place by the end of the day, please.
No love letters, no engaging him, no replying to his nonsense. Make your point and go out shopping or something. You're very busy.
I think you need his answer today or you can just go ahead and assume the FR is already in the mail.
Why am I not able to send a PM to another user here? It says it's disabled...?
Never mind... I just read that PM's are permanently disabled.
I wanted to apologize to MelodyLane. I was not myself the other night... frustrated, lack of food and sleep and I'm sorry if I offended you. I know you were just trying to help... My emotions are all over the place and I feel so out of control. I am sorry if I upset you or hurt your feelings!
and have to figure it out soon. � I love you, and I want to still make our relationship and marriage work, but in order to give you some of the answers your looking for, I need to figure out WH. I have only been to two counseling sessions, and last weeks session was more about her learning about me and my family history. We were not able really to get into more of what is going to help me yet. In order to have goals for me, for our relationship, and for our marriage, I need to know WH and what I'm really looking for in our future to give you those goals you seek. I want to at least see my couselor this week before I can sit down and think about us and our future, my goals for our future, my being the person you seek, an honest person. Please give me this time I need. I know your pushing for these answers, but I need you let me get the help I need to give you those answers. �
Dear starfish. My counselor has no real plan but is going to take my money week after week and spend it reopening old wounds. This is going to take a lifetime to pry out those truths. Please bear with me as I hide behind therapy and continue to choose not to be honest with you.
Dear starfish. My counselor has no real plan but is going to take my money week after week and spend it reopening old wounds. This is going to take a lifetime to pry out those truths. Please bear with me as I hide behind therapy and continue to choose not to be honest with you.
�
I know! What on earth does family history got to do with his current 'I don't wanna' hissy fit? Did his mother used to beat him with polygraph equipment until he developed a deathly fear of it and so he will always be in that five per cent? Don't think so somehow.
Stop whining to your counsellor Mr Starfish and start cleaning up your mess!!!!!
Dear starfish. My counselor has no real plan but is going to take my money week after week and spend it reopening old wounds. This is going to take a lifetime to pry out those truths. Please bear with me as I hide behind therapy and continue to choose not to be honest with you.
In other words - his expectation is that you accept him as broken instead of pathological.
He needs a mental hospital if he truly believes he can't be honest. Therapy isn't going to fix his brand of brokenness. But he's sure hoping you'll buy this latest yarn he's spinning.
Time for you to block his texts and emails - back to the Plan B you would have been in right now without the drama, had you stayed there.
I will ignore him once I sent him one last response... How exactly should I word it? I would like a few options to choose from to make it my own. Thank you!!!
Here is his newest calendar entry:
4/10: I received another letter from BW. I responded. We both still want to make this work, just not sure if we can.�
I liked Indie's synopsis of the letter. She was right on track. When I read it, having dealt with a very selfish husband of my own for many, many years all I could read was "I, I, I..." all about how your WH was suffering. A truly remorseful WS who understands the pain they have caused does not consider their own pain, because they are too devastated by the pain they have caused their BS. Your WH did not even MENTION the pain he is brought to you, which we, complete strangers, know is immense. He continues to protect himself and his own interests at all cost. He is no where near remorseful, IMO.
...The answer to that question will not change. It will take the truth, a PASSED poly to prove the truth, and nothing less...
I would keep it simple and professional SF, he is using your emotions against you. Your emotions and love for him are his weapon, not yours. You need to let him know that the brain is in charge right now and not the emotions. Or at least thats what HE needs to think, even though it appears that they are in an all out duel.
..he is using your emotions against you. Your emotions and love for him are his weapon,
Yes, that's why Plan B is recommended; to prevent the WS using the BS's love to manipulate her. 'If you loved me, you'd hang on in misery, you'd let me do whatever the hell I want, and not require any care...Can't you see I'm BUSY with my addiction!!!'
Of course if harangued and pestered to give in long enough.. She will. Because the BS loves only ONE person. That's why only a short plan A.
Originally Posted by unwritten
You need to let him know that the brain is in charge right now and not the emotions. Or at least thats what HE needs to think, even though it appears that they are in an all out duel.
Again, dead on. This is art of war 'when weak appear strong'. Whenever he tries to fire love weapons at Starfish, she must act as though he is firing blanks.
Starfish, this time change your email BEFORE you enter plan B (and any other contact info)
I know you forwarded emails etc to your IM while you looked at changing it but I think you glimpsed bits and were hit by his 'I love you bullets', which put off your grieving period and weakened your resolve a tad.
I'd also get proper financial advice and work out what you need in place legally. Its pretty obvious you won't be able to trust him to consider your interests.
Get a legally binding financial agreement in place or if you have to - file for divorce.
The problem with plan B resuming after a break is it does not look as serious to the WS this time.
He feels q happy to sit back and wait until you break it again.
If you can make it look more severe this time - changed email etc, and financial arrangements, he may take you more seriously and it will protect you from feeling tempted to break it.
Although I completely understand your frustration...heck I myself want to send Mr. Starfish that email...I think it reeks of emotion. Anger, is emotion. And remember, your emotions are HIS weapon in the war. Professional. Controlled. Think like a record player that is stuck on the same thread of a record, calmly repeating the same phrase over, and over. Truth, passed poly, recovery.
And may I add, you broke PB because you missed him, and that is turning into more anger toward him for his continued selfishness, resulting in you going back in PB (hopefully) because you are fed up again, which means you have lost some units to your love bank due to breaking it, and that is I believe one of the many goals of PB to keep you from losing more love units for your WH. So, just saying that we can see the PB and the non PB options both at work here. Haven't ever had to do the very difficult sounding Plan B, but it sounds to me like it works.
Is that to the point enough for his stupid butt? Let me know how I should word it...
My sister just told me that trying to control a situation never works. She said you realize that what you're doing isn't working, right? It's just pushing him in the opposite direction and he isn't going to do what you want. She has no other advice for me right now. She works with and councils people with many types of addictions, including drugs. She said I need to put the energy that I am focusing on him back into myself and do something everyday for myself that treat my mind, body and spirit.
Starfish, you are getting the best advice and you know that. A few years ago I had finally had enough of the lies and wrote a plan b letter had a great IM ready. I sent him the letter and stated that he had lost his right to call this his home and his family. His response was that he understood and knew that to be true. It worked for about 2 weeks until I couldn't take it anymore. I broke plan b and have been in plan c ever since even while separated. The last few years have been worse than those 2 weeks. Unfortunately I haven't been financially able to do it again.
I thought about a poly but I think my husband would pass even if he was lying unfortunately due to his training in his job. It's funny now when I think back and realize some of the lies he has told me. While deployed in 2006 and for a while after he returned I asked him if he had been chatting. His response was always no. Fast forward to 2008 when I caught him because of eblaster and went in to change password. I found another email address I didn't know about, it showed me that he had opened that account just 5 days of being deployed to Iraq. He lied to me for 2 years.
His favorite thing to tell me when I would ask for complete honesty would be to say the same thing your WH is saying......I'm not going to make stuff up. I found out on my own about 1 ONS and his PA. Upon finding out about his PA in 2005 he told me about the other ONS earlier that year. He loves to tell me "why would I tell you about that when I didn't even have to since you had no way of knowing?".
By throwing that at me he thinks that I should believe him about everything. That was until 2008 when he couldn't lie any more about chatting while deployed.
I guess my point is....now, we don't even talk about it. "I" and I alone have allowed him to get away with it and then push it under the rug. To the point that I could really care less about him just sticking it out for our kids and till I can finish school. I'm a good actress because he has no clue as to what I am thinking.
You love your WH so much right now and want your M to work, that's great but you need to stick with your plan this time, because as others have said that didn't stick to the plan that as mine their marriage either has or is crumbling because of the feelings of love get less and less.
Sorry so long, I tend to unfortunately get longwinded.
He wants to position himself as working very hard in "counseling" but yet stalling as to why not much progress is being made.
And then being oh-so-sad to play on your sympathy.
He's hoping he can come home based on this. Because once he's "back in", he's pretty confident that he can continue to stall and delay -- and maybe even feed you another few scraps that will get you off track entirely.
Its a shame that OW's husband is not helpful. It seems pretty obvious to me that they have a trainwreck going on over there. HIS ex-wife is causing trouble in their marriage (hmmmm....is he having an affair too? Or did OW's/OWH marriage start out as an affair? Otherwise why would his X-wife be trying to get OW fired??? Lots of red flags there -- and if he is also wayward, it might explain why he is not so helpful...)
Starfish, you are getting the best advice and you know that. A few years ago I had finally had enough of the lies and wrote a plan b letter had a great IM ready. I sent him the letter and stated that he had lost his right to call this his home and his family. His response was that he understood and knew that to be true. It worked for about 2 weeks until I couldn't take it anymore. I broke plan b and have been in plan c ever since even while separated. The last few years have been worse than those 2 weeks. Unfortunately I haven't been financially able to do it again.
I thought about a poly but I think my husband would pass even if he was lying unfortunately due to his training in his job. It's funny now when I think back and realize some of the lies he has told me. While deployed in 2006 and for a while after he returned I asked him if he had been chatting. His response was always no. Fast forward to 2008 when I caught him because of eblaster and went in to change password. I found another email address I didn't know about, it showed me that he had opened that account just 5 days of being deployed to Iraq. He lied to me for 2 years.
His favorite thing to tell me when I would ask for complete honesty would be to say the same thing your WH is saying......I'm not going to make stuff up. I found out on my own about 1 ONS and his PA. Upon finding out about his PA in 2005 he told me about the other ONS earlier that year. He loves to tell me "why would I tell you about that when I didn't even have to since you had no way of knowing?".
By throwing that at me he thinks that I should believe him about everything. That was until 2008 when he couldn't lie any more about chatting while deployed.
I guess my point is....now, we don't even talk about it. "I" and I alone have allowed him to get away with it and then push it under the rug. To the point that I could really care less about him just sticking it out for our kids and till I can finish school. I'm a good actress because he has no clue as to what I am thinking.
You love your WH so much right now and want your M to work, that's great but you need to stick with your plan this time, because as others have said that didn't stick to the plan that as mine their marriage either has or is crumbling because of the feelings of love get less and less.
Sorry so long, I tend to unfortunately get longwinded.
Hugs and prayers to you, CW
Thank you for sharing your story with me and I'm so sorry for what you have been through!!! Big hugs to you and wishing you all the best!!!
She said I need to put the energy that I am focusing on him back into myself and do something everyday for myself that treat my mind, body and spirit.
That is Plan B.
Yes, I know... The hardest part is no communication, but I realize that's not benefiting me either. After breaking my plan, my word is about as good as his at this point.
So, do you guys think I should respond to either one of his emails?
I don't think I'm going to respond to his emails. He knows what he needs to do!!!
I'm getting to the point where I'm getting pissed and just want to send an email that says:
TELL THE DAMN TRUTH!!!
Hey, she's back!
Not responding will prob encourage him to come round and hassle you. He is an addict therefore TOTALLY dedicated to getting you on board with his cake-eating plan.
Send a one/two line email about how he needs to pass a poly and let you know the date he has booked ASAP.
Originally Posted by starfish75
Is that to the point enough for his stupid butt?
This made me giggle but its clear your love bank for him is dwindling. I'd get into Plan B sooner rather than later before it disappears entirely and you don't give a damn about marital recovery - and start to love bust. Best to go into Plan B from a positive place.
Originally Posted by pokerface
Originally Posted by starfish75
She said I need to put the energy that I am focusing on him back into myself and do something everyday for myself that treat my mind, body and spirit.
That is Plan B.
Absolutely! Once you are through that pesky withdrawal, Plan B is like a yoga retreat. Peaceful, calm, no drama - plus treats every day are a must.
After you send the email I would become very busy/unavailable. You're not at home waiting for his calls and you are not available to be hassled, understand?
I don't think I'm going to respond to his emails. He knows what he needs to do!!!
I'm getting to the point where I'm getting pissed and just want to send an email that says:
TELL THE DAMN TRUTH!!!
Hey, she's back!
Not responding will prob encourage him to come round and hassle you. He is an addict therefore TOTALLY dedicated to getting you on board with his cake-eating plan.
Send a one/two line email about how he needs to pass a poly and let you know the date he has booked ASAP.
Originally Posted by starfish75
Is that to the point enough for his stupid butt?
This made me giggle but its clear your love bank for him is dwindling. I'd get into Plan B sooner rather than later before it disappears entirely and you don't give a damn about marital recovery - and start to love bust. Best to go into Plan B from a positive place.
Originally Posted by pokerface
Originally Posted by starfish75
She said I need to put the energy that I am focusing on him back into myself and do something everyday for myself that treat my mind, body and spirit.
That is Plan B.
Absolutely! Once you are through that pesky withdrawal, Plan B is like a yoga retreat. Peaceful, calm, no drama - plus treats every day are a must.
So, how about this:
WH,
I think I've made it very clear with you what it's going to take to keep me in this marriage. Tell the truth, the whole truth and pass a polygraph. Contact Joe Black @ 888-888 to schedule an appt and let me know ASAP.
He just called and I told him over the phone what it's going to take. I told him that I would email him the name and number for the polygrapher. I told him he already knows what he needs to do... tell the truth and pass a poly. I told him I was willing to do my part and now it's time for him to do his part if he wants to work on the marriage. He said, "I've already done my part BW.". I then told him someone was at the door and I needed to go... Goodbye.
I would keep interactions brief, to keep your lovebank safe and prevent lovebusting.
Everytime he sees you, you should be calm, cool, strong and rockin'. So get your plan B arranged SOON because its hard to keep that up when he's being such an azz.
This made me giggle but its clear your love bank for him is dwindling. I'd get into Plan B sooner rather than later before it disappears entirely and you don't give a damn about marital recovery - and start to love bust. Best to go into Plan B from a positive place.
YES. I was in Plan C for almost a decade and then woke up one day and my LB was completely dwindled. Then I went into Plan PO'D. And didn't give a DAMN about marital recovery. And, had a revenge EA, that could have gone physical but fortunately I was able to come to my senses and stop it and confess before that happened. I have to say that I like to see a little bit of anger in your SF, I still think anger saved me in some ways, woke me up, stopped me from walking around in lala self pity party land. But it has also caused destruction, and the road back to recovery seems twice as long.
Plan B sounds SO HARD! And I never had to do it, so that probably makes my advice fairly worthless. But in retrospect of my own sitch, if I had been presented with PLANS and could have gone through with Plan A and Plan B properly, it would have changed my life and saved us from years of deceit and continued destruction.
I know you don't need any more encouragement though, I can tell you are ready to go back into Plan B.
Then I went into Plan PO'D. And didn't give a DAMN about marital recovery. And, had a revenge EA, that could have gone physical
YIKES. But I see how that can happen. Even a BW in a calm Plan B with her wits about her is vulnerable to an RA. Just cause there's so many vultures out there who want take advantage of a betrayed woman (there's literally one in every room containing more than a dozen people)
Plan Confusion is bound to increase the vulnerabilty and be lax on good boundaries because there's no calm, no logic - just misery.
Originally Posted by unwritten
Plan B sounds SO HARD!
It really isn't! The first week or three is not fun because its taken up with grieving. But that grieving takes away all the anxiety and pent up frustration of Plan A - it washes you clean.
After that it is bliss. It is doing what you want, when you want - no POJA. Making a whole new life or making the existing one just better. Coming on here to make sure your Plan B sisters are lining up regular treats for themselves and getting nagged to do the same. Life's good.
Let's compare the fight to kill the affair - to say a battle against a dragon.
In plan A, you get up close and personal with the dragon. Your exposure nukes its wings off, trapping it in the valley (and sometimes killing it outright) your dagger of EN meeting slashes at its neck and your courage in standing up for yourself makes the dragon feel hopeless and like giving up.
All the while you are being scorched and slashed by the dragon, so the battle has to be kept short.
In Plan B you realise you have done as much damage as you can with a small dagger and withdraw to let the weakened, wingless dragon die on its own, where it can't hurt you. There is also the small chance that it is an immortal dragon, and if so you could stab away at it forever and you would die of exhaustion before it did.
Plan Bers then escape through a tunnel to a comfortable castle where the dragon cannot follow. They then fight a smarter battle of letting the dragon die on its own - or simply keeping out of its way if it is unkillable.
This is where the warrior first experiences pain. During Plan A they were too pumped up on adrenaline and anger to feel the burns and wounds the dragon inflicted.
Once in a quiet room, receiving medical attention - they start to smart.
The warrior also misses his old life - the village in the valley that the dragon destroyed.
Some Plan Bers grieve this loss and have their wounds healed and never venture into the valley again until the dragon is dead. They make a new life in the castle. Often the dragon becomes a man again, who will help the warrior rebuild. If not, the BS is happy where they are.
But others do a strange thing.
As soon as they are in the healer's quiet room and their wounds begin to smart, they blame the room.
'This room is too painful' they say. 'I miss my home' 'I was happier there'.
They look out to the valley, and instead of a fire breathing dragon, they see their village, intact.
In vain, the healer tries to tell the warrior their pain is only making them hallucinate - but back out they go for more punishment.
Then in and out, getting weaker, more wounded and more confused with each dragon encounter. It also helps to keep the starving dragon alive - at each encounter he tears flesh off the warrior to eat.
To sum up, the quiet room of plan B does not create any pain. It is simply where the pain is realised and grieved. And going back out there will not stop that pain - it will only see more wounds collected.
The way to get through the grief of the beginning of plan B is as follows
-plug holes where the wayward can contact you directly other than an IM - do not snoop (no keylogging, drivebys, etc) -put all photos of wayward out of sight and don't go get them and gaze at him and ruminate about him -get a hobby you have either neglected or never attempted
The most crucial here is the first two and the last two help a lot.
Oh India you are so WISE. And a good little analogical (I think I made that up) storyteller too. What I MEANT to say is...the WITHDRAWAL felt during Plan B sounds so HARD...but to ME coming from the land of confusion, the 'solitude' of Plan B, the lack of drama, the focusing on your OWN mental health sounds GLORIOUS. And I can't imagine how my life would have been different had I been exposed to it.
And, no vulture came looking for me as the sad, pathetic BS, I must own up to that. I was so angry I boldly and aggressively started an EA with one of H's best friends of almost 20 yrs. Fueled not by desire, or needs not being met, or fog, feuled 100% by anger and resentment. That, is the kind of anger and LB depletion SF wants to avoid, for sure.
He called me earlier and I told him that he was confusing me: one minute he wants to find himself, the next minute he wants to come home and wonders what it's going to take and then he asks me to go boating. I asked him, "What exactly is it that you want?". He said, "I don't know. I just know that I want to be home.".
I asked him he could come home as soon as he tells me the truth and passes a polygraph. I asked him what it's going to take for him to tell me the truth? Do you need to be in the presence of our MC, your IC, in front of me in person or by letter? He said he doesn't know yet...
Well that went well, but I wouldnt get involved in debates.
Originally Posted by starfish75
He said he doesn't know yet...
A play for more time. The magic word 'yet' paints a magical future where he suddenly comes to and is more truthful. Him: 'If only you would have the patience for 'yet' to arrive - all would be well!'
If he gets more time, he knows he can wear you down into accepting crumbs. Waywards know full well that Plan C is tiring and ends up defeating the BS.
Dont give him that time to wear you down. He can find 'yet' for himself in Plan .
He called me earlier and I told him that he was confusing me: one minute he wants to find himself, the next minute he wants to come home and wonders what it's going to take and then he asks me to go boating. I asked him, "What exactly is it that you want?". He said, "I don't know. I just know that I want to be home.".
I asked him he could come home as soon as he tells me the truth and passes a polygraph. I asked him what it's going to take for him to tell me the truth? Do you need to be in the presence of our MC, your IC, in front of me in person or by letter? He said he doesn't know yet...
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
WH: "I want to come home." You: "Have you made a poly appointment?" WH: "Why can't I come home?" You: *click*
You might tell him that polygrahs are going to be part of his life with you......at intervals once one is passed.....(lol).....maybe don't tell him that yet.
My biggest concern when you first went into Plan B was that your WH was not going to be able to make the meaningful changes necessary for recovery.
Now I am worried that if he does decide to make that change, that your LB$ has taken some serious hits and you will not have what is necessary to sustain you through recovery.
He called me earlier and I told him that he was confusing me: one minute he wants to find himself, the next minute he wants to come home and wonders what it's going to take and then he asks me to go boating. I asked him, "What exactly is it that you want?". He said, "I don't know. I just know that I want to be home.".
I asked him he could come home as soon as he tells me the truth and passes a polygraph. I asked him what it's going to take for him to tell me the truth? Do you need to be in the presence of our MC, your IC, in front of me in person or by letter? He said he doesn't know yet...
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
WH: "I want to come home." You: "Have you made a poly appointment?" WH: "Why can't I come home?" You: *click*
My biggest concern when you first went into Plan B was that your WH was not going to be able to make the meaningful changes necessary for recovery.
Now I am worried that if he does decide to make that change, that your LB$ has taken some serious hits and you will not have what is necessary to sustain you through recovery.
I still love him, just upset with the mind games.
Why did you doubt him being able to make the necessary changes for recovery? What led you to believe this...? I'm just trying to understand and see what you are seeing.
SF, haven't you read scotties thread? It ain't over till the fat lady sings. Where is your IM? Weve already played softball, now its time for hardball!
Is there a possibility of saving the marriage or is it doomed?
Right now, today, it is doomed. He's a liar who wouldn't consider your feelings or tell the truth with a gun to his head. He would rather die than give up his high.
He can't even imagine telling you the truth. Can't imagine a life with just you and no other needs getting met on the side. Doing without other women, going through withdrawal from that attention and risky dramatic passion, (which would be worse than your withdrawal experience, btw) makes him ache just thinking about the pain of giving it up.
That does not mean it is impossible for him to change. You provide more than half his high. You make it possible for the others to fill the rest, even though they are skanky ho's.
Without you it is - possible - that he will not get enough highs to keep his addiction going. When that happens he will go through withdrawal any way. If he's sensible he will realise it is better to go through withdrawal with you, than endure it without you.
But there's no guarantees. Some don't. They just get more girls on the pile and jump from one disastrous relationship to the next in the search of that high they've lost. Constantly running away from withdrawal.
And it won't happen (if it happens at all) in a few weeks or even months. His entire lifestyle has to stop being fun and fulfilling. It has to grate on him day after day. He has to hit rock bottom. He has to realise its not temporary and that this is the rest of his life unless he changes his entire outlook.
But none of that is important - its YOU we are worried about.
Is there a possibility of saving the marriage or is it doomed?
Right now, today, it is doomed. He's a liar who wouldn't consider your feelings or tell the truth with a gun to his head. He would rather die than give up his high.
He can't even imagine telling you the truth. Can't imagine a life with just you and no other needs getting met on the side. Doing without other women, going through withdrawal from that attention and risky dramatic passion, (which would be worse than your withdrawal experience, btw) makes him ache just thinking about the pain of giving it up.
That does not mean it is impossible for him to change. You provide more than half his high. You make it possible for the others to fill the rest, even though they are skanky ho's.
Without you it is - possible - that he will not get enough highs to keep his addiction going. When that happens he will go through withdrawal any way. If he's sensible he will realise it is better to go through withdrawal with you, than endure it without you.
But there's no guarantees. Some don't. They just get more girls on the pile and jump from one disastrous relationship to the next in the search of that high they've lost. Constantly running away from withdrawal.
And it won't happen (if it happens at all) in a few weeks or even months. His entire lifestyle has to stop being fun and fulfilling. It has to grate on him day after day. He has to hit rock bottom. He has to realise its not temporary and that this is the rest of his life unless he changes his entire outlook.
But none of that is important - its YOU we are worried about.
Thank you! I'm worried about ME too! My IC told me today that he is confused and for me to limit my conversations with him and keep it brief. I'm going to see her again on Friday morning so I can discuss my plan with her. She was aware of Plan B and that I broke it... My mom and sister also seem to believe that I need to just leave him alone and let him sort out his own mess.
Attagirl, SF. Your emotions are going to run the gamut. Don't be shy about posting them. The great thing about life is even when you make a mistake, you can start again. You still have plan b. Its not over because you broke nc. You see now why its better not to, eh?
Okay, while I agree that Plan C is CRAZY, I do want to state that PLan B isn't a cake walk. I don't want you, Starfish, to get the idea that you won't feel any pain during Plan B. You will. At some times, it will be one of the hardest things that you have had to do. But, the right things usually are the hardest things to do.
Does you marriage have a chance? Absolutely, IF you follow MB to a T. The path for recovery from ONE affair is a narrow narrow path. From 2(+?), you have a much narrower path. That is why it is VERY important for you to follow MB to the letter, and that you take the advice from those who have walked the path before you, and those who have walked the path you don't want to go down.
PLan B is not easy, but doing it correctly will enable you to get the life you deserve. It will help you not only survive your WH's affairs, but THRIVE.
Your WH's emails are pure fogbabble, and they show that he is no where near ready to recover. Attempting recovery with this man would be very dangerous to your emotional well-being.
Have not spoke with WH, but received the following letter:
BW,
I apologize for my part in creating an environment as well that lead to the emotional affair, and the one night affair that as pulled us apart and created this mess were both in. �I have apologized over and over again, I have done everything you have asked, and I have asked for forgiveness so that we can both move forward in rebuilding our marriage. � It seems that were at a cross roads. �It appears there is no way for you to get around this polygraph testing. �Remember I already did it once per your request. �Actually, I have done everything you have asked, including STD testing. �I think I have showed you that I want to continue this marriage and work on rebuilding our future. �Unfortunately for me and us you don�t believe me, and you want a passing polygraph test to prove that. �Again I have taken one already and I failed it, but I�m ok with that, and I have always been ok with that, because I know I have given you the truth. �I knew I failed it the day I went in, because I could just tell how the tester was reacting. �If I took another one and failed again, I�d be ok with that too. �If I took 20 of them and failed them all, then again I�m ok with it. �I know that I answered the tester�s questions truthfully. � You ask why I�m scared to lose you? �It�s because I realize no matter what I do; that risk of losing you is a real reality. �If I don�t take another polygraph test I�ll probably lose you, and if I do, and fail again, then I for surely will lose you, because I know how strongly you feel about me passing one. �I�m damned if I do, and I�m damned if don�t. �I have no faith in the polygraph testing, because I failed while telling the truth, so I�m not going to take that risk of failing again and watching us take 10 steps backwards and for sure doom any future we could possibly have. �At least if I refuse to take another one I have that slim chance that you will possibly believe that what I have told you is the truth. �Either way I�m scared as hell to lose you forever, but I have made my decision, and that is the decision I will have to live with the rest of my life. � No matter what happens from here I will always love you, and you will always have a piece of my heart.
I have been quietly following your thread since the start and have never commented because everyone covered what I had to say to you so far but after reading your WH latest BS I can't help but put my comments through.
All I see is a grade A manipulator and a total wayward. On what planet can you ever in a million years begin to justify his absolute and unequivocal failure at the last poly as anything other than he is hiding more? Are you choosing to forget the facts here?? He scored so badly there is no way round it. It wasn't a marginal failure it was an EPIC failure.
Here is my hunch and it's based on intuition.
I don't agree with the vets on the fact that he has taken things further with the first OW.
I do believe he told you most of the facts of encounter with OW number 2.
I am totally convinced he has had more affairs and one of them is certainly with someone you know (a friend or relative etc) and that's based on the fact that what he is hiding is far more damaging than what he has told you so far.
To date he has manipulated and convinced others he is telling you everything and he will look like a total A$$ if he now tells you anything else.
His actions so far have NEVER matched his empty attempts at sweet talking you.
Please wake up and see he only cares about saving his own skin and take the appropriate steps to protect yourself. Here are some facts I would like to remind you of to prove my point.
1) He does not respect you enough to give you the truth
2) He does not care enough about you to give you space to heal from his confessed betrayals never mind the ones he's yet to tell you.
3) He's so on the ball when it comes to saving his own skin that right at the start of all this he was all good and ready to seek legal advice, ask for any evidence you had on him to be destroyed and make legal threats when you changed the locks yet all of a sudden he's a little vulnerable man and now needs to find himself and misses you etc. it does NOT add up, if he's so much of a mess how did he manage to get his brain in gear to legally protect his backside but yet needs therapy just to manage some truth telling never mind his nice trips to the bars during this difficult time? He can drink at home if he was that upset not do it in a social environment.
4) He expects you to trust him when he has done NOTHING to earn that trust. Can you name one spark of real effort he has shown you since D Day that you haven't had to fight tooth and nail for??
I would wholeheartedly advice you to remove yourself from the drama, go DARK plan B and while your there remember that it's better to be alone than with the ghost of the person you married because the man your holding onto right now is not the same man you married he's a distorted version and the only way you have a chance of getting your husband back is to let go and let him hit rock bottom.
You can't control him or make him do anything you can only control your actions and right now you are allowing yourself to be hurt and abused by not being in any sort of plan and trust me when I say that he WILL take advantage and he will carry on hurting and abusing you until YOU stop it.
i am going to agree, i have been low key on this but for the past few days something is rubbing me the wrong way and unfortunately i have been there and i think and thank you nb28 for voicing it maybe again but there is more. ( maybe it a dday talking- round 2 ding ding)
why after all the crap hasnt he said star you are right or lets make this work, it bc there is more.... it has to be alot more, i know, its bad, and it takes a toll, did you read my highs and lows from feb to may (i would like to know if you did??), i was taking about a ring again after 2 mos, i wanted it to be true and i thought i had it all. but no i didnt.
yes my H let his second life crumble on day one it just took 3 months for the real truth to come out, and it was bad. shame guilt fear all play a factor. but then if i thought to myself.. i think it will be ok now, i would have never gotten the whole story, and as blinded as i was i had a feeling which you know you do that there was more....
yes you can say i am a lucky girl my H had what dozens of infidels but he came clean (wow lucky me!), please he got caught and then it spiraled out of control and then i was a crazy b till i got the rest. but we are working thru it yes it hard, but following the principals. and it works!
i think your H thinks he can play you better bc he has been doing it for so long. believe me looking back i see it all now, stoopid me.....
i know that this is hard but you must plan B- really do you want a liar for the rest of your life? "get away with one or 2, star doesnt need to know the rest, i failed poly thank god she only asked about 1 and 2 i would have been up [censored] creek about 3 4 5 6."
i would give him a note that says something like:
please write every woman you have had inapproriate relationship you have had, i am now aware that there are more than 1 & 2 -
when when how and names then take poly then we can start to rebuild with all that i know already, understand that i am willing to give us a chance bc i believe in this. until then i cannot do this, i have to care comfort and protect myself at this time.
then go dark as the vets have instructed.
listen i maybe calling a liar a liar but enough is enough. he should be doing everything in his power to prove that he is NOT and he should be doing every thing to not make excuses and he is not doing that.
just my 2 Cents. also strong women are hot! get your nails done, buy an outfit make plans with girlfriends and dont answer the crap that he sends until he passes the new poly with all of the crap.
btw- sorry ab the typos i cannot type and still no spell check. and that was long for me,
Look into my eyes, look into my eyes. You are feeling very sleepy. Forget the past! Forget all the times I have lied to you! Forget all the times I have been cornered by my lies, given you another half truth, which again turns out to be false. Forget! Really weren't you happier just not knowing? I sure was. So just forget! I know I risk losing the best thing that ever happened to me with my persistent lies, but you know me. It's just that I would rather lose you than be honest. That lifestyle would suck. But ideally, you'll let me carry on lying so I can keep you as cake.
With all my Love (in words only, of course - not actions)
Your little liar.
Starfish I read your post before leaving the house this morning and the entire drive to work I was consumed with anger for your WH's horrible, glib, entitled, gaslighting ways. Goodness knows how you must feel.
He has fed you this line numerous times before. THIS time I am telling the truth, why can't you just believe me THIS time. Yeah I know I said that LAST time, but really, you should choose to believe everything is peachy and we'll be happy in delusion land, lalalala.
Yesterday he needed years of counselling before he could 'give you answers'. Today he claims he has already given you everything you need to know, so what's your problem? His tactic is to be vague and confusing, to contradict himself and to just exhaust you until you just give in and choose to believe him, simply to stop the mind games.
But you have another alternative for stopping the mind games. Plan B. He simply just does not believe you have it in you to make it. Or chooses to. Delusional man.
I think its also important to keep in mind that aside from outright lies, lots of BSs get half truths or hidden truths.I knew there was something wrong in my marriage when my child-crazy h told me he know longer wanted kids. No reason. Just changed his mind that's all.
My reaction to this was to say 'you're lying'. Even though I had never said those words before to the man I trusted implicitly, I knew that such a dramatic change of heart didnt 'just happen'.
So he said: 'Why would I lie? This is hard for me to say. I risk losing a lovely wife, home and life."
Because I knew (instinctively and logically) that the latter statement was true, it made me doubt my gut instinct about the lie.
After that, whenever he told me our marriage problems were due to the kids issue, (rather than the secret affair) I believed him.
Lots of waywards use something that is clearly true to cover up something you suspect is a lie. Such as:
Its stupid to dip your pen into the company ink (true) So I would never do it! (false)
She is nowhere near as pretty and smart as you! (true) I would never look twice at someone that desperate (false)
I love you (true) so you should trust that that is enough (false)
Havent I always been honest up to now? (true) and I am just as honest still (false)
Im here because I want to be here (true) I dont want to be anywhere else (false) and so on.................
This is the art of gaslighting..
Ive highlighted the common tactics waywards use, which I believe your H favours right now and has favoured in the past.
What I read in this latest letter was "take me at me as I present myself and my disproven word, or you're guilty for breaking us up, starfish." This is what Plan B is for, to protect yourself from many things, including this manipulation. If you don't shut out what he is saying using the IM filter, you will probably go through more pain in the future. Unfortunately, he's telling you in every way possible that he's not willing to provide just compensation. He has yet to experience truly what life would be like without you. He seems to need that before he'll seriously think about compensation.
Not experienced like the vets here to give advice. What I want to share with you is that me and my FWW are 3 months into recovery. She had a 7mo A followed by a 9 mo FR.
Even though I have all the truth now and she is 100% committed to honesty, it is still very much a challenge day to day. Questions of honesty are always on my mind.
What I can't imagine is attempting R without sincerity and honesty. It is hard enough to start our new marriage with W that is fully onboard with MB. Honesty is our foundation.
I feel very much for your situation. I know the feelings of loss of dreams, insecurity and to be scared of the future without your spouse.
Trust me when I tell you that even if you do have FULL truth and williness to committ to Ratical Honesty in the future, it will still be a long difficult road to R.
Without truth and honesty? Well, you know the answer to that.
If you decide to give your marriage another try without having the peace of mind that he is is committed to honesty you will have doubts about every situation that comes your way for the rest of your life.
Ask yourself if that is something you are willing to accept. Please don't subject yourself to crumbs. You deserve more.
You deserve honesty. Whatever you decide you must determine what you are and are not willing to live with. You are determining your own fate.
I have been quietly following your thread since the start and have never commented because everyone covered what I had to say to you so far but after reading your WH latest BS I can't help but put my comments through.
All I see is a grade A manipulator and a total wayward. On what planet can you ever in a million years begin to justify his absolute and unequivocal failure at the last poly as anything other than he is hiding more? Are you choosing to forget the facts here?? He scored so badly there is no way round it. It wasn't a marginal failure it was an EPIC failure.
Here is my hunch and it's based on intuition.
I don't agree with the vets on the fact that he has taken things further with the first OW.
I do believe he told you most of the facts of encounter with OW number 2.
I am totally convinced he has had more affairs and one of them is certainly with someone you know (a friend or relative etc) and that's based on the fact that what he is hiding is far more damaging than what he has told you so far.
To date he has manipulated and convinced others he is telling you everything and he will look like a total A$$ if he now tells you anything else.
His actions so far have NEVER matched his empty attempts at sweet talking you.
Please wake up and see he only cares about saving his own skin and take the appropriate steps to protect yourself. Here are some facts I would like to remind you of to prove my point.
1) He does not respect you enough to give you the truth
2) He does not care enough about you to give you space to heal from his confessed betrayals never mind the ones he's yet to tell you.
3) He's so on the ball when it comes to saving his own skin that right at the start of all this he was all good and ready to seek legal advice, ask for any evidence you had on him to be destroyed and make legal threats when you changed the locks yet all of a sudden he's a little vulnerable man and now needs to find himself and misses you etc. it does NOT add up, if he's so much of a mess how did he manage to get his brain in gear to legally protect his backside but yet needs therapy just to manage some truth telling never mind his nice trips to the bars during this difficult time? He can drink at home if he was that upset not do it in a social environment.
4) He expects you to trust him when he has done NOTHING to earn that trust. Can you name one spark of real effort he has shown you since D Day that you haven't had to fight tooth and nail for??
I would wholeheartedly advice you to remove yourself from the drama, go DARK plan B and while your there remember that it's better to be alone than with the ghost of the person you married because the man your holding onto right now is not the same man you married he's a distorted version and the only way you have a chance of getting your husband back is to let go and let him hit rock bottom.
You can't control him or make him do anything you can only control your actions and right now you are allowing yourself to be hurt and abused by not being in any sort of plan and trust me when I say that he WILL take advantage and he will carry on hurting and abusing you until YOU stop it.
Thinking about what you said regarding a friend that we know. The day he took OW#1 on our boat, he had texted a mutual friend (female) of ours, who is also the g/f of one of his very good friends. He texted with her most of the day, until late evening (except for the time he was on the boat). Could this possibly be the OW#3??? She also had a strange friendship with another mutual guy friend of ours, who I might add had some issues himself. When she tried to push him away as a friend, he threatened to tell her b/f that they had fooled around. This whole thing is starting to bother me now... Maybe my mind is just playing with me...
She was also unfaithful in her first marriage and told me the following:
I can imagine. This kind of stuff in a marriage is very damaging & extremely difficult 2 repair. I was careless & unfaithful in my marriage and the amount of damage that it caused 2 my family, friends & 2 my son was devastating. Its pure ugly selfishness & no one deserves 2 b on the receiving end of that. I'm fortunate where u can c that now.
No, it's reasonable to assume she could be. I had good male friends, who were also my husband's friends they've never spent a whole day texting me, even when going through terrible crises in their life.
If she has poor boundaries with men (sounds like it from your description), she's a pretty likely candidate for an OW. Or potential OW.
I know this is hard, but really, does it matter? You know he can't be trusted and that he could go out and get ten OW tomorrow if he wanted. You can't track them all down. You collected enough OW for exposure and you're done with that stage.
You're now in the stage where nothing he does/did is your business until he makes it worth your while to stick around and care about his business.
Hi SF - I have also been lurking around, following your thread. I really hope you don't fall for your WH's lies. If I analyze this objectively, it is clear that he is lying and that there must be something big he is not telling you: 1. He fought the polygraph tooth and nail at first 2. His attitude toward the polygraph suddenly changed after a night at the bar with a buddy. I am sure the buddy convinced him he can beat the test. 3. If you reread his message he sent you on the night after the test, he is actually admitting that he thought he could beat the test: "Lying comes natural to me for some reason. Maybe it's our job, we lie all day long. We call it telling the story, but were really lying to get what we want, the order. It's something we do so natural at work, maybe that has transferred to my life out of work, but I'm a good person who cares and loves." 4. Now he decides to just stick to the lie and hope you believe him, as there is no way he will pass a polygraph test again.
I really agree with the others that is time for a very dark plan B - without it, he won't think you are serious enough about leaving him unless you get the truth. He still thinks he will get you back by lying to you.
"Lying comes natural to me for some reason. Maybe it's our job, we lie all day long. We call it telling the story, but were really lying to get what we want, the order. It's something we do so natural at work, maybe that has transferred to my life out of work, but I'm a good person who cares and loves."
I know I shouldn't be taking the word of a wayward, but I think it's ok, when they are telling you they are a liar!
This is the real him, imo. That was a dark night for him, I think. In which his lies were exposed fully for the first time ever and he knew it. In the past whenever he was caught out, he just spun another tale but there was just no arguing with the accuracy of that test, and he knew it. He's gotten more creative since, but that night seemed bleak to him.
So this is where he explains WHY he lies. Because it is 'natural' and to 'get what he wants'. Seeing as what he has wanted in the past is to get women both emotionally and sexually, its not an excuse - its a warning.
I'm sorry that your WH will not just do the right thing. SOOOO frustrating. Been there, you just want to shake them and hit them over the head with a 2x4 (was that out loud?). I agree with everyone that it has to be someone you know or some other 'bigger' event than what you have already heard, the gf of a good guy friend of his might be a possibility as that would bite him in the hiney with you and his group of friends if that came out. You really know you have 2 choices here 1) trick your mind into believing him so you can carry on until the next shoe drops, then repeat, or 2) go dark Plan B. I am not educated on option 2, but I have a PhD in option 1 and can share with you exactly what a life like that will mean.
Years of wondering, what is he up to? What does this mean? Wondering about things that don't add up, wondering about things that do add up. Asking yourself what's wrong with YOU that he cannot seem to stay faithful. How do YOU compare to those other women he seems to put before you. Losing your self esteem. Crawling into a shell. Feeling sad, and lonely, and empty. Being less of a wife, mother, daughter, sister, friend to the people who really DO care for you because you are a broken person. Wallowing around in self pity, asking yourself why your life ended up this way. Getting angry and bitter and resentful, at him, at yourself. At men, at marriage, at the world. Maybe even starting your own relationships because, who cares right? What's good for the goose... Then one day waking up and instead of a couple months having passed, or a year, its been a DECADE, and you are worse off than you were when you decided to accept this. Wondering where your life could have led had you just stood your ground a decade, or two, or three before. That, is the life Option 1 will bring you to.
Thinking about what you said regarding a friend that we know. The day he took OW#1 on our boat, he had texted a mutual friend (female) of ours, who is also the g/f of one of his very good friends. He texted with her most of the day, until late evening (except for the time he was on the boat). Could this possibly be the OW#3??? She also had a strange friendship with another mutual guy friend of ours, who I might add had some issues himself. When she tried to push him away as a friend, he threatened to tell her b/f that they had fooled around. This whole thing is starting to bother me now... Maybe my mind is just playing with me...
She was also unfaithful in her first marriage
I would also warn you SF to steer clear of this woman. It seems to me that regardless of how her first marriage ended she did not learn a lesson. I have a friend who had a long term A on her husband, and claims that they went through some MB counseling (as did the OM and his BS) and are fully recovered. But I have come to realize through our own recovery that she is no where NEAR recovery, still has many holes in her marriage, still flirts with disaster, and IMO still just doesn't 'get' the damage that has been caused. I discussed with my H how this is a friend I would be very careful about my contact with because I think she still has a wayward mindset, and we do NOT need friends with that mindset. Nor do you, whether you and your WH stay together or not.
SF since you like dogs I thought I would suggest something to utilize your extra time and energy in your dark Plan B. Volunteer at an animal shelter. One of the brightest things in my life during some of the darkest days has been my work with animals. They don't lie to you! Or ask questions, give advice, judge, criticize, make demands (ok some of them can be demanding)... It is a very pure and simple relationship, brings great fulfillment to you and seems to put life in perspective somehow. Not for everyone, but I know you treasure your own pooches so thought it might be for you.
Not sure how I'll ever be able to get through this...
Get yourself into Plan B. After the initial pain of withdrawal, you will see how much better you will feel. You will begin to feel better and better.
Use the MB plans. They will help guide you when you feel hopeless, and lost. Although there are times when I have some residual pain, it is NOTHING compared to what I would have felt had I not done MB.
Hold your head high and dont let him treat you like a fool. You are a very intellectual woman. This I can tell from you posts. .... Did you hear?You are a smart woman sf!! If he were ready to recover this marriage he would be willing to do whatever it takes. Plan b and show him how smart you are.
I asked him a couple questions last night about pre-marriage inappropriate behavior with any women. He said it was too long ago, he can't remember, but highly doubts it!
Like pokerface says, your WH will turn this around on you. In his fogged out brain, you choosing not to spend his birthday with him will mean that you don't love him and reinforce his entitlement to do as he pleases.
IMO your Plan FU is stemming from not being in Plan A OR Plan B. Plan C has worn you down. Plan C often turns into Plan FU. Continued contact with an unrepentant wayward impacts deeply on women... thats why Dr Harley suggests a short Plan A followed by Plan B. Starfish, get back to the plans, get into a dark Plan B. For your own sake.
I asked him a couple questions last night about pre-marriage inappropriate behavior with any women. He said it was too long ago, he can't remember, but highly doubts it!
Star, I remember the names, faces, approximate durations of relationships with every single woman I have ever been with in my life. Sounds like you have someone is so accustomed to lying that the truth would actually be painful.
He sounds like a borderline sociopath, but at the very least a compulsive liar.
You need to get back into Plan B and stat! You are not doing yourself any good whatsoever with these types of back and forth with him. It's just gonna wear you down even more than you already are. You don't need this hon!
Yes, it will. Right now you have made a choice to break Plan B. You can only control your actions, just as WH is in control of remaining wayward or committing to recovery. And whilst we can offer you encouragement to follow the plans, only you can implement them.
Thing is starfish, I have recently been in Plan C. Breaks in my Plan B, even without direct contact with WH, made me see just how beneficial Plan B is. Yes it hurts at first. But Plan C hurts more. I have had enough time in a dark Plan B to recognise what Plan C has done to my recovery. If I had experienced the cracks in Plan B in the early days as you have done, I never would have been able to get through withdrawal.
The past week I have had my fill of Plan C. I am returning to the peace and calm of my Plan B. Its lovely.
It is the traditional, emotion based plan of most betrayed spouses.
It is not the best plan.
You let your emotions break your plan B and now you are all bouncing here and there and allowing the H to run the show.
Just be nice when you do talk to him but try to re-implement plan B, turn heel and walk away.
If he ever truly wants you. Deep down where it counts, he will find his way to try to do what he must do. Otherwise, just set him free and continue onward.
If you don't do this. You will have years of thinking you are getting somewhere and you won't be.
Last letter I received from him as a reminder. Should I respond or send another letter before going back into Plan B?
BW,
I apologize for my part in creating an environment as well that lead to the emotional affair, and the one night affair that as pulled us apart and created this mess were both in. �I have apologized over and over again, I have done everything you have asked, and I have asked for forgiveness so that we can both move forward in rebuilding our marriage. �You�re a good person and a good soul, and you did not deserve this. � It appears that were at a cross roads though. �It seems there is no way for you to get around this polygraph testing. �Remember I already did it once per your request. �Actually, I have done everything you have asked, including STD testing. �I think I have showed you that I want to continue this marriage and work on rebuilding our future. �Unfortunately for me and us you don�t believe me, and you want a passing polygraph test to prove that. �Again I have taken one already and I failed it, but I�m ok with that, and I have always been ok with that, because I know I told the truth. �If I took another one and failed again, I�d be ok with that too. �If I took 20 of them and failed them all, then again I�m ok with it. �I know that I answered the tester�s questions truthfully, regardless of how it turned out. � You ask why I�m scared to lose you? �It�s because I realize no matter what I do; that risk of losing you is a real reality. �If I don�t take another polygraph test I�ll probably lose you, and if I do, and fail again, then I for surely will lose you, because I know how strongly you feel about me passing one. �I�m damned if I do, and I�m damned if don�t. �I have no faith in the polygraph testing, because I failed while telling the truth, so I�m not going to take that risk of failing again and watching us take 10 steps backwards and for sure doom any future we could possibly have. �At least if I refuse to take another one I have that slim chance that you will possibly believe that what I have told you is the truth. �Either way I�m scared as hell to lose you forever, but I have made my decision, and that is the decision I will have to live with the rest of my life. � No matter what happens from here I will always love you, and you will always have a piece of my heart.
What are you doing today? Are you interested in meeting up for brunch or lunch some where?
Or dinner later in the evening?
Seriously??? I didn't hear from him all day yesterday (his birthday), except for the call I made to him yesterday morning to wish him a happy birthday.
Blah blah blah....im not taking am another poly...blah blah blah...believe me, i told the truth and still failed.....blah blah blah....i have apologized but have yet to show in actions....blah blah blah....
What are you doing today? Are you interested in meeting up for brunch or lunch some where?
Or dinner later in the evening?
Seriously??? I didn't hear from him all day yesterday (his birthday), except for the call I made to him yesterday morning to wish him a happy birthday.
He thinks youre fine with his cake eating. He also thinks you cant manage to stay away from him forever. Waywards dont acknowledge Plan FU. If you turn them down, they just spend the time with OW and plan to catch up with you later.
Change all contact details, remove all triggers and let your IM handle all contact. Id get your financial advice done beforehand too.
It will help you stay dark if you cant see his emails etc.
I'd get your preparation done, then send him an email from your old account (right before you close it down, so he cant reply) Something like "When you are ready to pass the polygraph, please inform my IM. I love you and want to save our marriage with the truth in the open. It is too painful to be in direct contact while you continue to lie."
SF...so he didnt spend his birthday with you....it was with OW.....go plan b....
He spent the day on the boat with mutual friends. He went to a local restaurant/bar last night with his roommate, I assume. It's his roommates local hang-out.
Talk with a lawyer about how to get support paid regularly without filing for divorce. If that absolutely isn't possible, then I'd file for divorce and add this to your Plan B letter:
The only reason I am filing for divorce this time, is because of the financial moves you made last time I tried to protect myself emotionally from the pain your persistent lies have brought into my life. You have the power to stop this; and if you so desire to do so, please contact I/M.
The fact that he left your plan b letter in his pocket and let it go through the wash is a sign of his entitlement. He's not taking you seriously AT ALL.
He's a charmer. He uses charm at work to sell stuff and not tell the truth. He uses charm on other women to flirt and who knows what. And he rides on this charm with you, knowing you won't be able to resist. You proved his ability to charm by breaking plan b.
I know my posts sound harsh but that's because I understand the wayward mind, having lived it in my own EA. We waywards get so high on everyone wanting and desiring us that we drink our own coolaid and think we're the cat's meow.
He needs to know how serious you are and that he can't charm his way out of the serious situation he created by cheating on you with who knows how many women.
You broke plan b because you weren't ready to face the feelings of what's happening here and the potential that this might be ending. When you were in plan a, you were active and plan b might be more reflective. Don't put it off.
He's out there celebrating his birthday? HELL NO. He should be doing everything he can to make things right. Waywards are absurd in our ability to think it's all about us and everyone should be so lucky to have a drop of our attention.
The fact that he left your plan b letter in his pocket and let it go through the wash is a sign of his entitlement. He's not taking you seriously AT ALL.
I agree Zibbles, but we cant assume he is telling the truth about that.
It could also simply be a ruse to convince Starfish 'Hey I care so little for your Plan B that ITS NOT GONNA WORK ON ME'
I'm going to work on getting back into my plan b. Is it really necessary that I see an attorney right now or can it wait until after I'm in my plan, if needed? I'm not ready to file for a divorce.
He is calling me and texting me to let him know that I'm ok. He also tried calling my mom and sister and they aren't answering his calls.
I'm going to work on getting back into my plan b. Is it really necessary that I see an attorney right now or can it wait until after I'm in my plan, if needed?
I waited until I was in my plan and did it a week or so after 'going dark'. I would say do get teh advice sooner rather than later if you can, because it will reassure you ( I have the feeling it was one of the reasons which tempted you to break your plan).
However if you think you can manage to stay dark and get financial advice later, then do that. You know your temptation levels best.
Changing your contact details first, so he cant email you etc, is VERY important though.
I just wanted to remind you that you are at war with this evilness which has entrapped your H and made you bleed.
If filing for a divorce - on paper - is what you need to do to keep your troops (you) supplied and fed, its worth it.
I am not sure you realise that your H has destroyed your marriage and you dont have one right now any way. It's toast. There is no harm in dissolving something (your marriage) which does not exist any way, in the hope that an entirely new one may be rebuilt.
Indiegirl gave a sage way to go back into plan b on page 151
QUOTE:
I'd get your preparation done, then send him an email from your old account (right before you close it down, so he cant reply)
Something like "When you are ready to pass the polygraph, please inform my IM. I love you and want to save our marriage with the truth in the open. It is too painful to be in direct contact while you continue to lie."
I don't see any value in communicating with him. You've told him everything, demonstrated every need.
Is there any chance you can just go off radar for a bit?
Switch off your phone, stay at a girlfriends (without the phone) etc? You could even prepare from their house.
Either watch something funny or get the company of a very funny friend. Or just throw yourself into Plan B preps. But keep busy and distract yourself from that phone.
I'm not contacting him. He called my neighbor tonight to check on me. He said he stayed out too late on the boat and knows he should have called me. She asked why he was calling her, because he is answering his own questions. She told him that I'm not feeling like a priority and by his actions, she can tell I'm not a priority. She told him that I'm probably not talking to him due to his actions.
I'm not calling him!!!! I promise! I am not going to allow him to charm, sweet talk, manipulate or abuse me anymore!!!! I don't deserve it! If he wishes to continue his behavior, he will be alone. I'm not subjecting myself to his BS anymore!!! Time for me to get strong again... I'm angry right now... I've needed to get to this point and I'm pissed and not taking his emotional abuse any longer! I've had it!!!
I'm not contacting him. He called my neighbor tonight to check on me. He said he stayed out too late on the boat and knows he should have called me. She asked why he was calling her, because he is answering his own questions. She told him that I'm not feeling like a priority and by his actions, she can tell I'm not a priority. She told him that I'm probably not talking to him due to his actions.
I'm not calling him!!!! I promise! I am not going to allow him to charm, sweet talk, manipulate or abuse me anymore!!!! I don't deserve it! If he wishes to continue his behavior, he will be alone. I'm not subjecting myself to his BS anymore!!! Time for me to get strong again... I'm angry right now... I've needed to get to this point and I'm pissed and not taking his emotional abuse any longer! I've had it!!!
Really starting to like your neighbor! Those are some good words, but I'm afraid they probably fell on deaf ears. No, check that, I'm SURE they fell on deaf ears.
Star, you need to go completely dark, and right now. Get that email sent, delete that email addy, change that phone number, enlist the aid of that fantastic neighbor of yours if you can, call the National Guard if you have to, whatever it takes.
Just get out of this crap. You are spending way too much time trying to save your marriage when your time would be better spent saving you. You can't save your marriage alone, but you can save you alone. If at some point in time he decides he wants to come completely clean and do this the right way, then great. But right now it's not about that. He's shown (over and over) he has NO interest whatsoever in changing his ways and is just engaging the same manipulative behavior that he's always had the pleasure of employing to get his way. I'm sorry, but this is what it is.
The sooner you get on board with this (IMO) fact, the better off you will be long term.
I'm not contacting him. He called my neighbor tonight to check on me. He said he stayed out too late on the boat and knows he should have called me. She asked why he was calling her, because he is answering his own questions. She told him that I'm not feeling like a priority and by his actions, she can tell I'm not a priority. She told him that I'm probably not talking to him due to his actions.
I'm not calling him!!!! I promise! I am not going to allow him to charm, sweet talk, manipulate or abuse me anymore!!!! I don't deserve it! If he wishes to continue his behavior, he will be alone. I'm not subjecting myself to his BS anymore!!! Time for me to get strong again... I'm angry right now... I've needed to get to this point and I'm pissed and not taking his emotional abuse any longer! I've had it!!!
Really starting to like your neighbor! Those are some good words, but I'm afraid they probably fell on deaf ears. No, check that, I'm SURE they fell on deaf ears.
Star, you need to go completely dark, and right now. Get that email sent, delete that email addy, change that phone number, enlist the aid of that fantastic neighbor of yours if you can, call the National Guard if you have to, whatever it takes.
Just get out of this crap. You are spending way too much time trying to save your marriage when your time would be better spent saving you. You can't save your marriage alone, but you can save you alone. If at some point in time he decides he wants to come completely clean and do this the right way, then great. But right now it's not about that. He's shown (over and over) he has NO interest whatsoever in changing his ways and is just engaging the same manipulative behavior that he's always had the pleasure of employing to get his way. I'm sorry, but this is what it is.
The sooner you get on board with this (IMO) fact, the better off you will be long term.
BW, � I'm not sure why your not talking with me today.� I can only assume you might be mad about me not calling you last night.� I should have, I'm very sorry.� We didn't get back from the boat until almost 8 pm.� It was a long day, and I was tired and ready for a shower.� My roommate�and I ended up grabbing some food at little place down the street, and then hanging out and talking� for a long time here in the back yard. � If your upset about me not calling you I understand, it was not right.� I need to communicate with you. The problem is�I don't know what is right anymore.� Were not living together, so don't know if I should give you space or not give you space.� I don't know what�your feeling, because I can't see you and interact with you like couples should.� If were both trying to work this out, then I think we should be trying to work it out in the same house, so we can be with each other, helping each other.��Please think about what I'm asking.� I miss you BW. � Love, WS
From some one who took an eternity to get into plan b, who has numerous concusions from being 2 x 4'd repeatedly...this would be me, and i think i am finally in plan b......get into plan b....it is nice, quiet, peacefull, serene, drama free...
You mentioned that you needed to find WS (yourself) and I found the following article written by a man that I thought might help you:
"We need to be apart so I can find myself" What a cute little euphamism that is, finding yourself or finding out who you are.�
Many of my dear friends here know that I am a big believer in using a gentle touch on those unfortunate souls who either "Need to find themselves" or "Need to find out who they are" before they can come home to their families.
First, finding yourself... 1. If you can't find yourself, try looking in your shoes. More than likely you will be there.
2. Do not bother looking where your children or responsibilities are, though that would be a reasonable place to look we know you are not there.
3. If need be, go to the police station and give the desk sargeant an 8x10 or you and ask to have an APB put out since you can't find yourself.
4. Ask your child to point to their mom/dad, if you are not sure which one you are reach into your pants and feel around, if there is a penis there, you are dad, if not, you're probably mom.
Now one of these tried and true methods ought to help you find yourself, but it's probably dark so let's help you see better. Reach behind you, palms facing you, arms hanging down and grab. That's your butt. Now reach up and look for a large round object, that is your head. Now, with both hands pull as hard as you can. You are now performing recto-cranial extraction.
Ok, now you have found yourself. We are making progress here! Now we need to find out "who you are". This is not so hard. Look around the house - if there are one or more particularly short little people ask one of them, they are called children, they probably know the answer as it was one of their first two or 3 words. Not able to talk yet? No sweat.
Look for the full grown person with the red eyes who looks like they haven't slept in a while - they probably know. They aren't home??? let's keep looking.
Try looking in a desk or filing cabinet. Look for folders named "mortgage", "Utilities", Or "Marriage license". There will probably be two names here - you are one of those. So we have found you and narrowed it down to two people.�
Now look and see if there is a wallet around. Remember that? Little pocket sized leather folding thingy. Look for something that says drivers license. There should be a name. Now find a mirror (Glass thingy in the bathroom), look at the picture on the driver's license and the face in the mirror, if they match, the name on the license is WHO YOU ARE. If they don't, check those papers you found - you are the other name.
Now that you have found yourself and know who you are go find the other full grown person in the house and introduce yourself. Start out with "I'm sorry I could not find myself or figure out who I was, I know now"
Next, knock off the drama, quit being melodramatic and start being mom/dad, husband/wife like you are supposed to and quit with the childish theatrics because the final piece is WHERE YOU ARE. This is called the real world where people depend on you to act like a grownup and keep track of details like who and where you are. The little people in the house are kinda sorta counting on you too.
If this doesn't work and you have to take a journey to answer these questions there is a chance that when you find yourself you will be alone, without a house, without a spouse, without children who love you and without a penny. That is how my ex-wife found herself a year later. Trust me, my plan outlined earlier is better.
Ahhhhhhhhh.... okay, I needed to get that out since the day my ex-wife took off into the sunset. If your spouse tells you that they need time away to find themselves and discover who they are print it out for them. If they can't follow the directions make sure the door doesn't hit them in the rear and injure their head. There is a reason I harp on not putting up with crap from sposes who like to play little selfish games.
Now, go ahead and find yourself, if needed. �I'm willing to accept you back when you are willing to come back to me WHOLE. �You have a lot to do, a lot of things to learn on your own. �Please feel free to contact me when when you can be honest about everything.
Exactly. No peeking, Star. Go completely dark...trust, and you can here, that it is the smartest thing you can do for you and your M. Think wise and smart versus "hope".
You can and will do it. Plan B is the best plan to save your marriage. Don't forget that regardless of how counter-intuitive it feels.
Also starfish, have you done a wide exposure? I can't remember how many people you exposed to.
If you haven't done it yet, DO IT. Who are these people he's celebrating his birthday with? What does he tell them about why you're not living together?
This polished charmer of yours is NO DOUBT throwing you under the bus to his friends. There's no way he's admitting his bad behavior and taking ownership. He's telling them goodness knows what about how paranoid you are and how he's told the truth and what is wrong with you for not believing him...
Blow this out of the water if you haven't already. Public awareness of his secret life will help shake him out of his reverie. It will also get you some much needed support and apply pressure to him to do the right thing. He's clearly someone who loves to control the spin around his identity and how people see him, so exposure will be quite the wake up call.
Exposure is essential here and it will limit his ability to party away all weekend while you languish. I'd be writing up a letter and making a list if I were you. This wayward needs consequences. In a major way.
Yes, why are you reading these if you are in Plan B?
Originally Posted by starfish75
Just to reiterate... The email I sent will be the last response he receives from me... I'm done.
Glad to hear you are removing yourself from the drama. Now... about changing that email addy??? Have you done this? Because I am pretty sure that if you don't, you are going to find yourself sucked back in. Your track record shows that whenever WH contacts, you react and get drawn back in. Star, this is meant as constructive criticism... don't get me wrong, it is very normal BS behaviour. It is difficult to adhere to the boundaries... therefore it is best to prevent any awareness of the WS's attempt to overstep the boundary. When you don't know about contact attempts (or also important, aren't WAITING for contact attempts) then you don't feel compelled to REACT. Then you will start to find peace.
Originally Posted by starfish75
I'm going dark now...
I'm holding you to that. Accountability. You are accountable to us on MB. You are now officially re-entering Plan B.
Originally Posted by Logans_Run
Your phone turned off? Email cancelled? No peeking......
Exactly. This is the only way you will have a truly dark Plan B. Soooo... actions not words. You are telling us you are in a dark Plan B. Tell us when you have taken action to place yourself there. Tell us when you have changed your number. Tell us when you have changed your email addy (and cancelled the original account). Tell us any other potential peeks and ways you are going to putty them up.
She needs to somehow shut that door again and reiterate her conditions since she has thrown them out the window this weekend. Just going dark isn't the right message either.
My suggestion is that she send a short email just saying she made a mistake by contacting him this weekend and needs to cut off all contact until he agrees to her conditions to tell her the full truth and pass a polygraph.
Starfish. Have you done this starfish? Don't send WH mixed messages...which is what you have done when you broke Plan B.
The comments I received from him this morning about the email that I sent about finding himself:
I have always wanted to be home and you know that. Your the one that locked me out. �It's time to let me back in �if we're going to try to make this work. Not being around you during this time makes things worse.
Also I never wanted to be away from my responsibilities, I pushed away from them. Those small furry kids of ours, the love of our lives. I never wanted to be without them. I miss there greetings everyday. You have kept that from me as well. I'm not saying that what you sent isn't a good reality check, but it's not me either. I was forced away form my loved ones, yes because of actions I caused, but I never wanted to leave.
Last time I was over I noticed. Close in my closet. That told me that maybe you didn't want me back, maybe you were erasing me. My stuff is all out of the house too. What am I suppose to think.
I would like to see you after work.
You know it will be 4 weeks today. How long do you want me away from my family? Don't you think it's been long enough? Do you miss me? Because I miss you.
I know you want me back, so just ask me to please come home. I'm asking may I come home.
The last thing I mentioned to him in the email that I sent before his responses above was the following:
Now, go ahead and find yourself, if needed. �I'm willing to accept you back when you are willing to come back to me WHOLE. �You have a lot to do, a lot of things to learn on your own. �Please feel free to contact me when when you can be honest about everything.
Are you thinking that I should be more specific? I blocked his email address, until I can get everything organized and open up a new email address.
SF, I have been following your thread since its inception, as have many other people. IMO your demeanor has changed from one of hurt and shock...to fear, questioning if your actions would push him further away, confuse him, etc. and wondering what you could do to 'get him to tell the truth'...and finally now in the last week I have seen ever increasing ANGER and RESENTMENT. I know all about Plan FU, anger and resentment. One of the reasons for Plan B is to maintain what's left of your LB, and I think you can see what damage the last week has caused your LB. Understandably so, but it has set you back more than a week in terms of recovery. You are doing Plan B for you, but you are also doing it for a chance to true recovery, because if you let that LB deplete anymore you WILL be ready for D and/or go wayward yourself (this was my choice, not recommended). Good luck in your Plan B, you're the first thread I check other than my own every day because I'm always thinking about you!
Dont worry about being specific. Dont worry about telling him anything. Do not read any more of that crazy drunken rambling nonsense. Just get yourself dark ASAP get those contact details changed.
Is blocking his email working? How is it you can read these emails?
I dont think you should read another chapter of 'Poor Me - or - Why I Dont Like to Face Consequences.'
Pep summed it up best , even before seeing this latest offering. 'Stop Talking to His Lying Whiny Butt.'
I do think you should make one final effort at contact, and be VERY specific. I can see why WH is a little confused, between the Plan B letter and using an IM, to coming out of Plan B pretty quickly and being pretty friendly and willing to listen to his pleas (as in you are obviously weighing all that things he is sending you and he knows it), and now a letter about him finding himself...etc. I think it is confusing. Does he know you want the truth? YES he is not confused about that. What he is confused about is whether you are going to accept him back without it. You made a stand, put a line in the sand, then stepped over it. Now you have to start from scratch on that.
I like MelodyLane's suggestion of a short email stating that you made a mistake by coming back into contact with him. I love you and want our marriage to work, but will ONLY work on recovery when you are willing to give me the whole truth, and prove that with a poly (not just take a poly...pass a poly). Short, but with the dots VERY close together about what your terms are.
Since you are not officially back in Plan B yet, consider this:
To WH,
I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.
"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.
"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is will affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.
"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.
"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."
The day he took OW#1 on our boat, he had texted a mutual friend (female) of ours, who is also the g/f of one of his very good friends. He texted with her most of the day, until late evening (except for the time he was on the boat). Could this possibly be the OW#3??? She also had a strange friendship with another mutual guy friend of ours, who I might add had some issues himself. When she tried to push him away as a friend, he threatened to tell her b/f that they had fooled around. This whole thing is starting to bother me now... Maybe my mind is just playing with me...
She was also unfaithful in her first marriage and told me the following:
This one really bothers me starfish. Have you exposed to this OW3?'s BF?
Dont worry about being specific. Dont worry about telling him anything. Do not read any more of that crazy drunken rambling nonsense. Just get yourself dark ASAP get those contact details changed.
Is blocking his email working? How is it you can read these emails?
I dont think you should read another chapter of 'Poor Me - or - Why I Dont Like to Face Consequences.'
Pep summed it up best , even before seeing this latest offering. 'Stop Talking to His Lying Whiny Butt.'
Since you are not officially back in Plan B yet, consider this:
To WH,
I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.
"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.
"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is will affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.
"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.
"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."
MelodyLane is the ultimate expert here and this was her advice. Do it and go into Plan B. Today.
She needs to somehow shut that door again and reiterate her conditions since she has thrown them out the window this weekend. Just going dark isn't the right message either.
Quote
My suggestion is that she send a short email just saying she made a mistake by contacting him this weekend and needs to cut off all contact until he agrees to her conditions to tell her the full truth and pass a polygraph.
The day he took OW#1 on our boat, he had texted a mutual friend (female) of ours, who is also the g/f of one of his very good friends. He texted with her most of the day, until late evening (except for the time he was on the boat). Could this possibly be the OW#3??? She also had a strange friendship with another mutual guy friend of ours, who I might add had some issues himself. When she tried to push him away as a friend, he threatened to tell her b/f that they had fooled around. This whole thing is starting to bother me now... Maybe my mind is just playing with me...
She was also unfaithful in her first marriage and told me the following:
This one really bothers me starfish. Have you exposed to this OW3?'s BF?
No, I haven't. I do believe she was texting him about a mutual friend of ours (drug addict) that was making threats to her. She had texted me too. I asked him about the text messages and he was pretty firm that there was NO WAY that he would do anything with her. She is NOT HIS TYPE and he is NOT THE LEAST BIT ATTRACTED TO HER. I never heard him answer any question this way regarding the other women, so I believe this to be true. His response was telling.
Ok, so send him another short email or ignore him? I'm getting advice her for both and not sure what is the best thing to do. Should I reiterate my conditions?
Should I get his mailing address through his roommate to mail him the check for my portion of the bills or leave the check somewhere? I don't want to leave anything else at my mom's house, because he will try to talk to them.
Mailing him anything directly would be breaking PB. Can you auto deposit the money into his account?
And, this time around, you should not only block his calls, emails etc, you should CHANGE YOUR NUMBERS. Speaking of which, what about the cell phone? Is it still in his name with your sister's and mother's? You need to get your own.
You've already attempted PB once, so you have some idea what needs to be plugged up.
You don't need to lead him around anymore, that's not your job.
I would do what ML suggested, send the short email about how you made a mistake contacting him, and have decided to stop again.
Plan C can be very hard to change from, so do this correctly.
I realize that I made a mistake in contacting you last weekend. It is apparent that you are not willing to do any work to save our marriage or help us to rebuild. It is also apparent that myself and our marriage are not a priority to you.
I cannot be in contact with you until you agree to tell me the truth about every affair and indiscretions with other woman since we met in 2003. In order to regain communication with me, you must be willing to tell me the full truth and pass a polygraph.
Ok, I'm getting really confused here... 1/2 of the advice I am getting here is to send him a short email and the other 1/2 is telling me to ignore him and that he already knows, which I agree with.
Mailing him anything directly would be breaking PB. Can you auto deposit the money into his account?
And, this time around, you should not only block his calls, emails etc, you should CHANGE YOUR NUMBERS. Speaking of which, what about the cell phone? Is it still in his name with your sister's and mother's? You need to get your own.
You've already attempted PB once, so you have some idea what needs to be plugged up.
You don't need to lead him around anymore, that's not your job.
I would do what ML suggested, send the short email about how you made a mistake contacting him, and have decided to stop again.
Plan C can be very hard to change from, so do this correctly.
How is mailing him a check breaking Plan B? The only thing in the envelope would be a check.
'My suggestion is that she send a short email just saying she made a mistake by contacting him this weekend and needs to cut off all contact until he agrees to her conditions to tell her the full truth and pass a polygraph.'
follow melody's suggestion above.
don't put anything about how it's clear he doesn't want to work on things. that is a provocation for more dialogue. as was the letter you sent yesterday about him finding himself. you want to shut the dialogue off, at least on your end.
just let him know it was a mistake and what what he needs as a next step (pass a poly).
WH, I made a mistake by contacting you last week so I'm back to no contact until you take and pass a polygraph. All communication can go through IM between now and then.
"should you forgets get confused, misunderstand, loose yourself, destroy paper in the washing machine or anything else that may happen to make you forget what I need from you in order to consider reconciliation and working on our marriage please feel free to contact the IM who will be happy to supply you with the list of requirements and things that I need from you to rebuild our marriage."
Give your IM a copy of the plan B letter and the requirements and he will have to deal with her rather than you every time he pulls one of his fogged out misunderstanding bull he likes to confuse you with.
Wow this creep managed to find and use all his braincells when it came to perusing other women and dropping his pants but when it comes to doing anything useful he sure likes to play dumb.
starfish I am rooting for you and your marriage but I need to warn you in advance, that it is far worse to brake plan B for a second time because if you back down again there is NO HOPE of getting anywhere with this guy and I would suggest you go for a divorce and forget the whole recovery thing.
Ill repeat again because it is a serious point - if you brake plan B again you will loose any hope of getting any kind of decent marriage and therefore it would be better to just file for divorce.
You needplan B for him because you need to let go of him and allow him to hit rock bottom so he will never ever ever do this to you again and be an honest ,faithful man.
You need plan B for you so you can heal and get control of your life in order to be in a strong healthy position for reconciliation.
And you need plan B for your marriage because it allows you to preserve any feeling you have left for each other, you can't lb him and he can't lb you.
Plan B is healthy whichever way you want to look at it. So please get yourself organised go dark and stay there.
WH, I made a mistake by contacting you last week so I'm back to no contact until you take and pass a polygraph. All communication can go through IM between now and then.
Had I been able to get on earlier, this is what I would have suggested as well. THis is the best option.
How is mailing a check to him DIRECTLY a breach in Plan B? Well, you tell him that he will not be able to communicate with you in any way, and then you BREAK it. You could mail it to someone else(no not his roommate), and have them pass it on to him(This is what I do, whenever there is something hard copy that needs to be passed, but this is RARELY). This leaves it open that HE will also mail YOU something. You know, since you have allowed that in the past. Shore up that Plan B. Make it TIGHT. You need to do an even better job than last time, since you broke. He will be expecting you to break again. Expect him to lob BOMBS at you this time.
You CAN do this. You will just need to get through the withdrawal phase, and then you will have to control YOU.
Thank you. I am not the only one here who knows what to do though. It takes a village, and remember, I had a lot of help. Some of which came from ML. She is definitely a GREAT support for Plan B. Take her advice always.
You are long past due to enter PB. I thought you would have entered it last Friday, when he didn't do anything towards saving your marriage.
Your WH is blowing a lot of hot air. He is all, ME ME ME ME. That's why it is important for you to get outta there.
Thank you!!! I will make arrangements to mail anything to a co-worker in his office that can give it to him.
Today was rough, but I saw my therapist this morning and she is helping me to put precautions in place at work.
I need to change my cell phone #, which I'll check into tomorrow.
I'm not going to give in this time! I will be coming here when I'm experiencing withdraws for support!!! I know I deserve better than the way I've been treated and I'm doing my best to be strong this time! Maybe the anger is happening at the right time for me, because it's helping me to stay strong for now. My therapist believes that the sadness will come later for me. I haven't experienced sadness yet... She said it sometimes comes later in the grieving process.
The mailings will be few and far between right? I think I have mailed things to my orig IM about 5 times in 2.5 YEARS. NOT monthly. That would be craziness. You'll need to get this figured out more permanently. As long as you have his account info, you can deposit the money directly into his account. See, this is a hole in your PB. I can envision you checking up the cheque and seeing his signature, or the date he cashed it, and think about him. That is NOT where you want your thoughts traveling while you are in PB.
Wow this creep managed to find and use all his braincells when it came to perusing other women and dropping his pants but when it comes to doing anything useful he sure likes to play dumb.
- bravo. (P.S. - It takes a very strong memory to be a professional liar. Don't kid yourself that he is uncertian of what you are and have been asking of him. He knows. He just wants to ignore your requests and STILL get what he wants.)
SF; If you will feel better about sending him another communication before going into plan B, do so as advised.
You are not saying anything new or more inportant than last time, and you both know it. All this drama about it is only hurting your LB. WH does not care the duress you are putting yourself through. Remeber that.
You should not send him direct communications (letters, texts, calls, skype -other account statements) because it puts WH back front and center in YOUR MIND.
Scottys advice re mailing checks has brought up stuff I hadn't considered. Mailing a check to him doesn't meet a need, but yes he could (and will) turn it into an invitation to mail things back to you.
She also makes a great point about how his activity with the checks will trigger you. Having been in plan B I can tell you that the more robotic and automatic your financial transactions are the better. What if he were to deposit a cheque from a romantic vacation spot, knowing you would see it? These are the kind of stunts waywards pull all the time to get you to break.
Originally Posted by starfish75
I will be coming here when I'm experiencing withdraws for support!!!
Glad to hear it. I know at the height of withdrawal I was so tempted to call WH. I seriously considered tying myself up to prevent it. I wanted to hear his voice and I wanted that short term hit so badly that I didn't even care what he would say. Coming on here helped me not do something stupid.
I would get a RL accountabilty too. Is there someone in your life you can call up, tell them you might do somethin stupid? My sister and mother both offered to be 'on call' if I was feeling weak so they could come around and help.
Scottys advice re mailing checks has brought up stuff I hadn't considered. Mailing a check to him doesn't meet a need, but yes he could (and will) turn it into an invitation to mail things back to you.
She also makes a great point about how his activity with the checks will trigger you. Having been in plan B I can tell you that the more robotic and automatic your financial transactions are the better. What if he were to deposit a cheque from a romantic vacation spot, knowing you would see it? These are the kind of stunts waywards pull all the time to get you to break.
Originally Posted by starfish75
I will be coming here when I'm experiencing withdraws for support!!!
Glad to hear it. I know at the height of withdrawal I was so tempted to call WH. I seriously considered tying myself up to prevent it. I wanted to hear his voice and I wanted that short term hit so badly that I didn't even care what he would say. Coming on here helped me not do something stupid.
I would get a RL accountabilty too. Is there someone in your life you can call up, tell them you might do somethin stupid? My sister and mother both offered to be 'on call' if I was feeling weak so they could come around and help.
Day 1 in Plan B went surprisingly well. Spent most of the morning/afternoon with my sister. This definitely helped to keep my mind busy!!!
I made arrangements to deposit money for my portion of the bills directly into WH's account per the advice here.
My LB is definitely low in coins right now... I have an appointment with a lawyer tomorrow to seek advice.
Question for those that went into Plan B: Did you ever feel that your marriage was just an illusion of what you wanted it to be? I'm starting to feel that I wanted to believe that my WH was everything I ever wanted, painted this picture of him and our lives... so, was it real or just an illusion that I created in my mind? Did I overlook all of the defects and flaws, because I believed in the illusion of the perfect husband and life? I hope this is making sense...?
It definitely makes sense. You're going to find yourself reflecting on the relationship a lot.
Keep busy. Amp up the self care. Connect with your supporters. Stick with plan b because you'll start to feel amazingly better if you can ride out the first phase of withdrawal.
There's grief happening. You're in mourning for the marriage you thought you had. This is normal, so be kind to yourself as you move through it.
It definitely makes sense. You're going to find yourself reflecting on the relationship a lot.
Keep busy. Amp up the self care. Connect with your supporters. Stick with plan b because you'll start to feel amazingly better if you can ride out the first phase of withdrawal.
There's grief happening. You're in mourning for the marriage you thought you had. This is normal, so be kind to yourself as you move through it.
Thank you so much for understanding... This is going to be so hard and I realize that, but I know that I need to get back all of the things I lost in myself and somehow find ME again! I miss ME!!! I wish there was an easier way to go through all of this as it wasn't my choice. Hopefully, I will learn some very valuable lessons along the way. I'm trying to find something inspirational to tape to my bathroom mirrors. If anybody has any suggestions, please let me know.
I'm going to attempt a yoga class on Thursday evening. I love yoga and haven't been in weeks!
Question for those that went into Plan B: Did you ever feel that your marriage was just an illusion of what you wanted it to be?
yes. my H was unrecognisable when going through his A. i didn't feel i knew him /had known him at all. it really is like they are pod people (have you seen invasion of the body snatchers?) the good news is that when the fog lifts, they can return to be an even better version than what you thought you had before.
hang in there, starfish. keep your eyes on the prize. keep busy, and take ADs if you need them. i sure did. some days will absolutely suck, but you'll get better.
I do need to take my AD's, which require food. I started to get my appetite back today... First time I've had 3 meals in a very long time!!! My sister made me a protein shake for breakfast, we split a sandwich for lunch and my mom brought over stir-fry for dinner! I even had a piece of chocolate and glass of wine for dessert! lol...
As for the reviewing of your marriage, well I did that for months - that's the start of your grief.
Don't fear this grief. Its like training to run a marathon or climb a high peak. You won't do it all in a day, but when you're done you'll be stronger, more resillient and develop muscles in places you didn't think possible.
Some of your thoughts will be an angry rewrite, making him into someone who had no good qualities and did nothing for you, ever.
Other thoughts will simply, as you say, be the end of certain illusions.
Pace yourself and make Plan B the greatest place in the world to be.
I love me some Yoga. It's one of the few exercises I can doesn't trigger any images in my head. As for quotes, this one from Socrates motivates me to keep working out and taking care of myself: �No citizen has a right to be an amateur in the matter of physical training�what a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable.�
I would change the man and his to woman and her and tape that to your bathroom window.
I'm glad to hear that you have IRL support for you. That will mean a great deal. Especially on those nights when there aren't too many of us around to offer support.
Have you read anything by QueeniesAdventure, or Mimis_Here? I know that their threads helped me a lot. I also read A LOT of threads on here.
It is quite common to look back and reassess your marriage. That's a part of Plan B actually, so you are doing the right things.
When I would go to sleep, at the beginning of Plan B, I would congratulate myself on not contacting my WH in any way. When I woke up in the morning, I would pump myself up to not contact my WH that day. In the beginning, that is the most important part of PB, No contact. After you get through the beginning, we'll help lead you to the next part. So, for now, your mission is simple. No contact with your WH, in ANY way, eat, sleep and exercise. That's it for a bit. You CAN do this.
Had breakfast this morning with my sister! Spending time with her now.
Have a meeting with lawyer this afternoon... Any questions you can think of for me to ask? We are in a 50/50 state and there is no such thing as legal separation here.
I don't know if this is a legit approach with an attorney; however, I'd be inclined to see if a letter from an attorney reinforcing Plan B might be effective with your WH:
Mr. Wayward Fish,
I have been retained by Mrs. StarFish in the event that there is any further betrayal of your marital covenant, which includes physical, mental, emotional and financial fiduciary covenants. I will be overseeing the protection of her assets and investment of all that she has in your marriage with her.
In the event that you are forthcoming with all disclosures regarding the status of your responsibilities to your marriage, including the successful passing of a polygraph to support these necessary disclosures, any further efforts from me will not be necessary. However, I will not hesitate to file any and all appropriate legal injunctions against you, including divorce, should there be one whiff of any shenanigans to further deceive your wife.
Though there is no legal separation....each state has ways to protect you.
Ask the lawyer what you can do to protect your finances and to handle such matters if you don't file for a divorce at this juncture.
Then see the different scenarios and which is best in your situation.
....by the way.....lots of lawyers will tell you to file for divorce (which is a valid way to go) but make sure you know the alternative methods available to you.
I don't know if this is a legit approach with an attorney; however, I'd be inclined to see if a letter from an attorney reinforcing Plan B might be effective with your WH:
Mr. Wayward Fish,
I have been retained by Mrs. StarFish in the event that there is any further betrayal of your marital covenant, which includes physical, mental, emotional and financial fiduciary covenants. I will be overseeing the protection of her assets and investment of all that she has in your marriage with her.
In the event that you are forthcoming with all disclosures regarding the status of your responsibilities to your marriage, including the successful passing of a polygraph to support these necessary disclosures, any further efforts from me will not be necessary. However, I will not hesitate to file any and all appropriate legal injunctions against you, including divorce, should there be one whiff of any shenanigans to further deceive your wife.
She said I need to put a timeline for Plan B and how long I'm willing to wait for him to come clean. She also asked me if I did know everything, would I ever be able to trust him again? Right now, I'm thinking NO!
I explained to her Plan B, MB, etc. She is interested in MB and going to check it out. She said that I have myself together and that I'm organized, an amazingly strong woman and sort of like an FBI agent. She couldn't believe my strength with everything I've been through! She understands that I need to regain my strength and get my heart and mind in sync before I make any decisions on divorce or no divorce. I'll be honest, I'm leaning more towards D right now. I believe my WH would rather sell his soul than to come clean. I really don't think he ever will. Even his own mother told me last night that she doesn't believe he is strong enough to do what it's going to take. She told me, "At least you'll always have your mom and sister."
Yes. I understand that there is no Legal Separation in some states.
The states that don't have one still make it is possible to negotiate all issues of support, children, and property distribution, and have an agreement reached with your spouse that has been drawn up into a formal "Marital Settlement Agreement", or "Interspousal Agreement", or "Property Settlement Agreement" without ever obtaining a divorce.
Even in states where there is no recognized legal sep......people are not supposed to be able to move out of their home and not still meet certain financial duties.
Yay on the free consultation! Perhaps you could get a free consult from a couple other attorneys too?
I would have to file for divorce for any agreements to be drawn up.
Any agreement would be valid from file date until divorce is finalized. Unfortunately, no other options in my state. I've already spoke with 3 attorneys and they have all said the same thing.
I'm out and about with my dogs. My neighbor just texted me that WH pulled up in front of our house. Waiting to find out when he leaves so I can go back home.
I would have to file for divorce for any agreements to be drawn up.
Any agreement would be valid from file date until divorce is finalized. Unfortunately, no other options in my state. I've already spoke with 3 attorneys and they have all said the same thing.
I just googled "How do I get spousal support in Florida without divorce" and a whole bunch of stuff came up.
Florida divorce law does not have a formal process providing for a legal separation of spouses. In fact, Florida family law does not even utilize the term "legal separation" in Florida divorce cases.
However, Florida spouses who wish to separate but not divorce may request that their Florida family law attorney file a Florida spousal support action on their behalf. Florida spousal support actions are governed by the Florida statutes and may be filed as an independent action. In other words, a Florida Divorce Complaint does not need to be filed to be able to file an action for Florida spousal support. If no divorce complaint is filed, a Florida spousal support action is technically called "Support without Dissolution" or "Separate Maintenance". Another way that a Florida spousal support attorney may start a spousal support action is to include a count for it in a Divorce Complaint (in Florida called a "Petition for Dissolution of Marriage") when it is believed that the Respondent may allege that the marriage is not irretrievably broken. The final judgment in an action for Separate Maintenance will not end the marriage or distribute marital property but may provide for the payment of alimony, a child custody schedule and child support. Florida law permits either the Florida spousal support lawyer representing the spouse in need of support to petition for Support without Dissolution or the Florida spousal support attorney representing the spouse responsible for paying the support to petition for Separate Maintenance (although the later rarely occurs).
I find it amazing the lawyers you met with didnt know these options!
Maybe they arent as lucrative.
Originally Posted by starfish75
She said I need to put a timeline for Plan B and how long I'm willing to wait for him to come clean. She also asked me if I did know everything, would I ever be able to trust him again? Right now, I'm thinking NO!
I'd be very wary of any lawyer who tries to tap into your emotional state. Mine gave me great options, she explained the different things I could do and what each option would mean for me and what each one would cost. To this day she has never expressed an opinion either way on whether I should divorce or not or asked how I how feel emotionally. She's there to give advice on the law. We are not friends, she has no experience with infidelity or counselling marriages and Ive never asked her opinion on that stuff. I just aked her how to protect myself financially.
I'm out and about with my dogs. My neighbor just texted me that WH pulled up in front of our house. Waiting to find out when he leaves so I can go back home.
I would have to file for divorce for any agreements to be drawn up.
Any agreement would be valid from file date until divorce is finalized. Unfortunately, no other options in my state. I've already spoke with 3 attorneys and they have all said the same thing.
I just googled "How do I get spousal support in Florida without divorce" and a whole bunch of stuff came up.
Florida divorce law does not have a formal process providing for a legal separation of spouses. In fact, Florida family law does not even utilize the term "legal separation" in Florida divorce cases.
However, Florida spouses who wish to separate but not divorce may request that their Florida family law attorney file a Florida spousal support action on their behalf. Florida spousal support actions are governed by the Florida statutes and may be filed as an independent action. In other words, a Florida Divorce Complaint does not need to be filed to be able to file an action for Florida spousal support. If no divorce complaint is filed, a Florida spousal support action is technically called "Support without Dissolution" or "Separate Maintenance". Another way that a Florida spousal support attorney may start a spousal support action is to include a count for it in a Divorce Complaint (in Florida called a "Petition for Dissolution of Marriage") when it is believed that the Respondent may allege that the marriage is not irretrievably broken. The final judgment in an action for Separate Maintenance will not end the marriage or distribute marital property but may provide for the payment of alimony, a child custody schedule and child support. Florida law permits either the Florida spousal support lawyer representing the spouse in need of support to petition for Support without Dissolution or the Florida spousal support attorney representing the spouse responsible for paying the support to petition for Separate Maintenance (although the later rarely occurs).
I find it amazing the lawyers you met with didnt know these options!
Maybe they arent as lucrative.
Originally Posted by starfish75
She said I need to put a timeline for Plan B and how long I'm willing to wait for him to come clean. She also asked me if I did know everything, would I ever be able to trust him again? Right now, I'm thinking NO!
I'd be very wary of any lawyer who tries to tap into your emotional state. Mine gave me great options, she explained the different things I could do and what each option would mean for me and what each one would cost. To this day she has never expressed an opinion either way on whether I should divorce or not or asked how I how feel emotionally. She's there to give advice on the law. We are not friends, she has no experience with infidelity or counselling marriages and Ive never asked her opinion on that stuff. I just aked her how to protect myself financially.
Yes, this can be done once I file, which it states above. I can ask again how long this will last, but I was told today from the date I file until divorce date. Of course, I could drag it out for years, but I don't really want to do that. I've got to put a time limit on all of this...
I wasn't advised one way or the other regarding whether I should file or not from the attorney that I spoke with today. She told me that I have a decision to make and gave me all the facts and what I could expect. Even discussed post-nuptial agreement, etc. I wanted to see what she could offer from all angles, including the laws, etc.
I have another attorney that I'll be meeting with or at least have a phone consultation with and I'll ask her about the article that you found.
Yes, this can be done once I file, which it states above. I can ask again how long this will last, but I was told today from the date I file until divorce date. Of course, I could drag it out for years, but I don't really want to do that. I've got to put a time limit on all of this...
No that is only one of the options in that paragraph. One of the options says filing for a D in not needed.
In other words, a Florida Divorce Complaint does not need to be filed to be able to file an action for Florida spousal support. If no divorce complaint is filed, a Florida spousal support action is technically called "Support without Dissolution" or "Separate Maintenance
Filing for divorce is a completely separate option to spousal support. It goes on to describe the second option of filing for a D, but not finalising it.
Another way that a Florida spousal support attorney may start a spousal support action is to include a count for it in a Divorce Complaint (in Florida called a "Petition for Dissolution of Marriage") when it is believed that the Respondent may allege that the marriage is not irretrievably broken. The final judgment in an action for Separate Maintenance will not end the marriage or distribute marital property but may provide for the payment of alimony, a child custody schedule and child support. Florida law permits either the Florida spousal support lawyer representing the spouse in need of support to petition for Support without Dissolution or the Florida spousal support attorney representing the spouse responsible for paying the support to petition for Separate Maintenance (although the later rarely occurs).
Originally Posted by starfish75
I've got to put a time limit on all of this...
I personally gave myself six months as the vets told me a BS will struggle to make any permanent decisions before then. As it turned out, six months wasnt long enough and I reviewed and extended it. Now I will Plan B for life, though I have decided to press on with the divorce. I'll hear him out if he comes to me before its final..but Im not too keen to see it.
I wasn't advised one way or the other regarding whether I should file or not from the attorney that I spoke with today. She told me that I have a decision to make and gave me all the facts and what I could expect. Even discussed post-nuptial agreement, etc. I wanted to see what she could offer from all angles, including the laws, etc.
I have another attorney that I'll be meeting with or at least have a phone consultation with and I'll ask her about the article that you found.
Personally, I would wait and see how he responds. If he does the right thing and takes care of business as he should, then hold off on filing.
If he gets petty and vindictive and starts withholding his financial obligation to you, then file immediately.
But, star, you can bet he's gonna get petty and vindictive, so I would have whichever lawyer you choose to retain to get the papers prepared so they are ready to file at the drop of a hat.
I have a gut feeling about what he is hiding... Had time to think about it and I think it's an old girlfriend from work. After we started dating, she went out on the boat with us along with her friend that was in town and other mutual friends. WH introduced her to me as a friend, same thing he did with OW#1. I remember her primping a lot that day and talking about WH taking care of her pets when she was out of town... lots of talking about old times on her end. That night we all went back to WH's house and I walked outside and noticed that she reached in to kiss him and WH pulled away.
Last year he went to a baseball game with three people from work that win tickets and she was one of those people. I noticed that he had put her number in his phone under her nickname. He told me that he only did in case he got separated from the group at the game, even though he had the male director's number who also went to the game. He was friends with her on fb and she posted a pic of herself with my H and another girl from work on her fb page. I was never friends with her on fb and she is always fake nice with me at work.
WH knows this could DESTROY our marriage, lifestyle, etc., because we all work for the same company. I think he knows that I would ask him to leave the company! I really think this could be the missing link!!!
He was hoping for you to play nice, suck it up and salvage the lifestyle he casually has played roulette wth time and time again.
In Plan B ou get SO many ideas. You see so many holes in stories from the past.
It kind of ironic that as soon as the ball is in his court, you develop a whole new game.
Its the rest youre getting inPlan B. You get sharper and you have no one to consider but yourself, so the whole 'dont rock the boat' mentality that blinded you before is gone.
But its his job to prove truthfulnes now. Youre done.
This introspection in Plan B is also great for you as a person. You learn how to spot a liar from a mile away. Something I could never do before and now its so easy.
Funny how when you are thinking more clearly, things just sort of fall into place. Honestly, it doesn't matter WHO he is lying about, he is still lying. That's why he failed the poly. That's what matters.
Don't focus so much on the what ifs and what could bes. Just focus on YOUR healing. Until he is ready to PASS a poly, and be RH with you, he isn't safe for your emotional well being.
You didn't have any contact with him today right? That's a first step. Celebrate it. Until you get fully out of withdrawal, which will take a few days at minimum, celebrate that. Did you eat today? Did you sleep? How about exercise? Have you done anything to make you laugh today? Have you talked to a trusted friend? Leaned on someone for support? Pet those dogs?
I ate two meals today, spent the morning with my sister, deposited money into WH account for my portion of the bills, dropped of more of his belongings to my mom's house, visited the attorney, went for a drive with my dogs, talked to my mom, co-worker and neighbors and DID NOT COMMUNICATE WITH WH!!! Yeah ME!!!
WH came by the house tonight, but I wasn't home, so he left cut up apples (for dogs) with the neighbor to give to me. Hello? Does he not understand NO CONTACT???
WH came by the house tonight, but I wasn't home, so he left cut up apples (for dogs) with the neighbor to give to me. Hello? Does he not understand NO CONTACT???
That's because you broke Plan B before and he's testing you to see if you're serious about NC.
WH came by the house tonight, but I wasn't home, so he left cut up apples (for dogs) with the neighbor to give to me. Hello? Does he not understand NO CONTACT???
That's because you broke Plan B before and he's testing you to see if you're serious about NC.
He wants to eat more cake.
Actually, he did similar things before through my mom and sister. He went by their house tonight too. My mom told him her main focus was me and that I deserved better. That's all I know, as I asked them to ignore and not relay information to me. Our neighbors told him tonight that it's not about him anymore... They told him its all about me now and my feelings. Everyone is being so protective of me right now. I asked them not to tell me anything he says.
Getting tired and need to go bed.... Day 2 was much better than I expected. Last Plan B lasted 4 & 1/2 days, but I'm feeling much stronger this time around. I don't think I was quite ready before. I realize now how important it is to have strength before moving into Plan B (at least a little bit of strength). I'm in a better place now, maybe due to my LB being lower or finally experiencing anger. I have faith that I can get through it this time. I didn't realize the strength I possessed until now. I wake up every day wondering how I got through the day before, but I did! I'm going to keep on pushing to take care of me and do what is best for me! I have finally started to get my appetite back (a little), but it's a start! I can make it through this... one hour, one day at a time.
I still wish I could wake up from this horrible dream... I thought infertility was painful, but I never knew pain until I experienced infidelity and betrayal. All the prayers God received to give us a baby were being answered and we didn't even realize it. My own mom stopped praying to God, because she told him she was upset with him for not answering to her prayers and and she quit praying. My mom told me two weeks ago that she realizes now that God was listening, but it wasn't in his time and he knew it wasn't the right time. Sometimes we have to experience heartbreak and pain to see His bigger picture and what is meant to be for us.
It's hard to imagine that I would be experiencing what I am now, but I'm trying to have faith that my higher being knows what is best for me and will guide and walk me into the right direction of where I'm meant to be.
So, should I ignore his request to get his soccer stuff or take it to my moms? Seems like I should ignore him and his request, because then he will realize that he can go around my IM and get messages to me.
I can't believe that he NEEDS his soccer stuff at a time like this. Guess he's starting to play soccer again. He can buy new soccer stuff or do what is needed in PBL!
So, should I ignore his request to get his soccer stuff or take it to my moms? Seems like I should ignore him and his request, because then he will realize that he can go around my IM and get messages to me.
Yup, you got it. Coach your mum in what to say too should he come back to her. That you wouldn't allow her to even tell you. She and your sis have been great and this will actually protect them from hassle.
Originally Posted by starfish75
I can't believe that he NEEDS his soccer stuff at a time like this. Guess he's starting to play soccer again. He can buy new soccer stuff or do what is needed in PBL!
Haha! Considering most BSs are advised to Plan B even if it makes the wayward homeless, I think you can safely ignore this.
As of now you officially don't care what he wants or needs and have no way of knowing anyway.
Star, you need to shore up this PB. I like that you have neighbours watching and telling you when your WH is around your house. Do you have exclusive use of your home? If he were to show up, could someone call the police instead? I think that it might only take once, and he wouldn't return. If you were to go this route, ensure that you are protected, in all avenues as he will most likely retaliate.
And see, this slip in PB has you thinking about how he must be playing soccer again. He may be, and maybe not. It. Doesn't. Matter.
hi star. i'm so happy to hear you've gone to plan b! it is HARD to ignore what people tell you because you WANT the contact yourself. YOU are going through withdrawal too. DO NOT bring anything to your moms. and role play w/her. role playing helps a lot.
if mom is passing you messages, you are not dark. stick to the plan! you go, girl!
and get ready for the "downs." there will be a few. if you have a plan to cope with them, it will help.
I'm not going to drop off his soccer stuff at my mom's. I talked to my mom about what to say to him next time if he says anything to her. All correspondence needs to go through the IM. If he refuses, then I won't hear anything from him.
I'm starting to feel that he's never going to come clean and maybe I should file for D. I'm not quite ready to actually do it yet, but just something I've been thinking about. I'm 36 years old and would love to have a family. Just feel like I've been spinning my wheels in mud and getting nowhere.
I am taking care of myself and making apponintments for myself and my pets while I have the time off. Might try to go back to work next week part time.
I'm not going to drop off his soccer stuff at my mom's. I talked to my mom about what to say to him next time if he says anything to her. All correspondence needs to go through the IM. If he refuses, then I won't hear anything from him.
I'm starting to feel that he's never going to come clean and maybe I should file for D. I'm not quite ready to actually do it yet, but just something I've been thinking about. I'm 36 years old and would love to have a family. Just feel like I've been spinning my wheels in mud and getting nowhere.
I am taking care of myself and making apponintments for myself and my pets while I have the time off. Might try to go back to work next week part time.
Hey star, just wanted to drop by and let you know you are in my thoughts and prayers.
Just follow Scotty's and indie's PB tutelage and you'll be fine, but don't deviate from what they tell you to do. If or when you come to any breaking points, come and talk to us before acting. I'm not going to pretend to be a PB guru (pretty much like anyone else who's not done PB) but I think enough of us have at least an elementary grasp of it to stop you if that time comes and the PB vets happen to not be around.
Okay, I'm beating around the bush. Please don't make the same mistake you made last time when you broke PB. I know it may have felt right, but I'm sure you are seeing now that it wasn't. And if you break it again it will only get tougher.
You deserve better than this. Don't feed his need for you while feasting on others as well. You're the entr�e, the others, the appetizers. Let's see how how long he can live on snacks before he realizes what the most satisfying part of dinner is.
I'm not going to drop off his soccer stuff at my mom's. I talked to my mom about what to say to him next time if he says anything to her. All correspondence needs to go through the IM. If he refuses, then I won't hear anything from him.
I'm starting to feel that he's never going to come clean and maybe I should file for D. I'm not quite ready to actually do it yet, but just something I've been thinking about. I'm 36 years old and would love to have a family. Just feel like I've been spinning my wheels in mud and getting nowhere.
I am taking care of myself and making apponintments for myself and my pets while I have the time off. Might try to go back to work next week part time.
Hey star, just wanted to drop by and let you know you are in my thoughts and prayers.
Just follow Scotty's and indie's PB tutelage and you'll be fine, but don't deviate from what they tell you to do. If or when you come to any breaking points, come and talk to us before acting. I'm not going to pretend to be a PB guru (pretty much like anyone else who's not done PB) but I think enough of us have at least an elementary grasp of it to stop you if that time comes and the PB vets happen to not be around.
Okay, I'm beating around the bush. Please don't make the same mistake you made last time when you broke PB. I know it may have felt right, but I'm sure you are seeing now that it wasn't. And if you break it again it will only get tougher.
You deserve better than this. Don't feed his need for you while feasting on others as well. You're the entr�e, the others, the appetizers. Let's see how how long he can live on snacks before he realizes what the most satisfying part of dinner is.
Hang in there sweetheart.
Thank you so much for your kind words and encouragement!
I definitely realize the mistake I made breaking PB the last time and do not want to go down that road again! Thank you for putting the appetizer vs. entree into perspective for me! I think your description of it is right on!
I promise to come here anytime I feel like I might break my plan. I'm really feeling so much better about everything this time around. I have family, friends, neighbors, co-workers and all of you here to help me through the tough times. Thank you so much!!!
Nothing. If he were NOT a WS, then you might consider some sense or weight in his words, but since your WS is a as wayward as can be, then nothing. It is over when it's over, and it is your decision not his, because it is about YOUR requirements. He is obviously not up to live those requirements now, so it is your decision whether it is over or not. During your plan B you will decide it hopefully.
I'm not going to drop off his soccer stuff at my mom's. I talked to my mom about what to say to him next time if he says anything to her. All correspondence needs to go through the IM. If he refuses, then I won't hear anything from him.
Don't let ALL correspondence go through IM. Only finances and such, because you will go crazy. If your IM is Indie I'm not worried, she is one tough cookie and knows it, but if it is someone else and who is not very strickt, then you have to instruct her very carefully.
Don't let ALL correspondence go through IM. Only finances and such, because you will go crazy. If your IM is Indie I'm not worried, she is one tough cookie and knows it, but if it is someone else and who is not very strickt, then you have to instruct her very carefully.
Hi Mrs R, I am her IM and there's only a few basic finances/practical matters to sort out. Once we can get him to stop harassing her relatives and go only through me, there should be very little to do and the messages will fritter out into a truly dark plan.
She doesn't have children, like me, and its going to be easy to keep messages to a minimum.
Day 5 and no contact with WH. I still need to change my phone number as he keeps texting me. I'm ignoring/deleting them. I'll work on this tomorrow or first thing on Monday...
Day 5 and no contact with WH. I still need to change my phone number as he keeps texting me. I'm ignoring/deleting them. I'll work on this tomorrow or first thing on Monday...
I see a Plan B determination forming! Yay starfish!
You won't come out into the good bit of Plan B until that phone is taken care of. Once its done you'll know what I mean.
Be honest, a small part of you doesn't want to change your number because you WANT to know that he is trying to contact you. It. Doesn't. Change. ANYTHING. He is still unwilling to be honest, and he is unsafe for you emotionally because he is still wayward.
It's no small thing that you made it longer this time, just keep plowing through. As soon as you get all of those holes patched up, you'll feel much much better.
Be honest, a small part of you doesn't want to change your number because you WANT to know that he is trying to contact you. It. Doesn't. Change. ANYTHING. He is still unwilling to be honest, and he is unsafe for you emotionally because he is still wayward.
It's no small thing that you made it longer this time, just keep plowing through. As soon as you get all of those holes patched up, you'll feel much much better.
I don't have an issue with him not being able to contact me if I change my number, but I have also been very busy. I had 4 appt's today and was exhausted. However, I will admit that I have had the same number for 11 years and I love my phone number!!! It's going to be a big pain to change and notify a lot of people about my change of number. I know it needs to be done.
Plan D in the works!!! Can't do this anymore... he disgusts me!
I know I'm not supposed to be tracking him, but I did and saw that he stayed the night with the girl that we work with. I mentioned something about her a couple days ago. I am done!!! I don't ever want him again!
Very sorry, Starfish. He's hopeless, and I'm sorry he's put you through this. He'll never find true happiness, but I can tell by your character and resolve that you will. You deserve much more. Take care of yourself.
Oh Hun I'm so sorry to hear that. I'm filling you all the way from oz... I think about u everyday and pray that you find the strength to over come what this moron is doing so that you may find the joy and happiness that you truely deserve.
Oh Hun I'm so sorry to hear that. I'm filling you all the way from oz... I think about u everyday and pray that you find the strength to over come what this moron is doing so that you may find the joy and happiness that you truely deserve.
Have you started to look for a new job? Do you think you will ever be at peace at that job with all the triggers and the fact that he is lurking around the corner? That is not Plan B.
I know I'm not supposed to be tracking him, but I did
Well, STOP ! No buts.
Quote
I am done!!! I don't ever want him again!
Then stop tracking him and stop talking about him.
If your plan is to divorce, then for YOUR OWN SAKE, Plan B like he does not exist. Use your attorney and use your IM to take all the emotions out of it.
While you are still hating him, you are not indifferent towards him. Indifference, not disgust or hatred is YOUR GOAL.
And, any poster who declares that your H is "hopeless" should be considered a newbie to this forum.
I am posting this to you, starfish, but I am fully aware that many people follow your thread. So, this is also for any others who may be in a similar situation.
We talk about "boundaries" a lot on all of MB forums. Boundaries are self-protective to insure our own safety/sanity. Boundaries are decisions about behaviors which you will not allow to be a part of your life. We are usually talking about unhealthy behaviors of others.
Originally Posted by BrambleRose (oldtimer)
Selfish demands require (and expect) the other person to change. Setting boundaries require that you change.
If you continue in the affair, I will divorce you. = control and manipulation. (requires/demands that the WS stop/change)
I choose not to participate in a relationship of three. = boundary. (Boundary setter must take the action here)
Starfish, are you aware, Starfish & other dear readers, that we should have "boundaries" in place regarding our own behaviors?
Plan A and Plan B both require personal boundaries. We require that we change in ways that are new and improved. We require that we control ourselves. We do not love bust. We do not fight or argue.
Even if you divorce, having a 'good life' in the future will require discernment and self control and personal boundaries on your part.
Having boundaries about what we will and will not accept from our wayward spouse is NOT enough! We must adhere to self-boundaries. That includes not spying on a spouse when one is in Plan B.
Why is Scotty such a stellar Plan B'er? Because she established boundaries for herself and she adheres to them. It was not easy for her. She did the difficult things that she required of herself.
So, gentle readers, ask yourself if you are asking for self control from your wayward when you lack that characteristic yourself?
Plan D in the works!!! Can't do this anymore... he disgusts me!
Can't do what anymore? Cut him out and concentrate solely on you, as you are supposed to be in Plan B?
Originally Posted by starfish75
I know I'm not supposed to be tracking him, but I did
Well judging by this, you never began. (Now is also the time to reveal any other Plan B cheating and to seal up any other gaping holes)
Originally Posted by starfish75
Plan D in the works!!!
Star, a divorce is a solemn thing which should not be done on the back of an angry outburst. Divorce from a calm, logical place. For financial protection, sure. When you know that he has reached Dr H's two year point or when you know for certain, that even if he calm to you fully repentent with all your conditions, that it would still be too late. That you don't care.
And you do care, you would do recovery. If you didn't care you wouldn't be angry.
Originally Posted by starfish75
he disgusts me!
You can't be disgusted by what you can't see.
You knew full well he was still an active addict, you knew that spying would reveal the details.
What do you think a wayward in Plan B does? Meditation classes and yoga? They indulge in their addiction.
How else is he going to hit rock bottom than by giving his addiction a chance to fall flat?
Go dark, for heavens sake stop trying to prevent the grief and don't make any permanent decisions for six months when you should be calmer. Fill the interval with self care.
I thought a previous poster's suggestion about volunteering with animals was ace. Not only would it take your mind off things but you could ask about career opportunities since you have a passion for animals. Start EXPLORING. Plan B is supposed to be an adventure.
I mentioned earlier that I cannot track him anymore, because I deleted the app. I also changed my phone number. I'm working on boundaries for myself, but it's taking time for me to make changes. I'm not used to just thinking about myself. I always considered my husband too and our marriage, so this is going to be very difficult, however very much needed for me to heal.
I'm doing the best I can to take care of myself hour by hour. I will be contacting the attorney in the morning. I can't go to work this week. I was planning on going back for 1/2 days starting Tuesday, but that's just not possible right now. I believe WH had a secret second life since I've known him. I realize now that I can never trust him again, nor forgive him for what he has done to me (for a very long time). I have no love left in me for him. I pity him and feel disgusted at the thought of him.
I am going to prepare myself to move forward with my life... work on myself and create healthy boundaries for me. You mentioned no dating? Well, that is the furthest thing from my mind. I can't even imagine being with another man for A VERY LONG TIME! I want to be alone. I want to be ok with me, learn to love myself again and be the happy person that I was before all of this turmoil. I have wasted 9 years of my life... quite a learning experience. And, God does answer prayers. I went through infertility for over two and a half years, because God knew I wasn't meant to have a baby with this man!
Yes, I'm hurt and I'm angry as hell! I'm in the anger stage right now and I'm ok with it, because I need to experience all of the stages of grieving. I haven't been able to really cry and feel the loss with true sadness yet. The toughest days are yet to come, but I'm alive and have many family and friends who support and love me. I have so many of you here as well that have helped me, guided me and truly cared! Thank you!!!
I realize that I'm angry, but I need to consider financial support. Even if he did come clean to me about everything, it doesn't matter anymore. I can't forgive all that he has done. I deserve better!
I think many of us had the sense that your intention w/Plan B was to scare your WH into changing. That is NOT the purpose of Plan B! Your H is wayward and doesn't have you or your M in his best interests - you KNOW this. And that is all you really need to know right now.
When I was out of my mind furious after dday 3, I was 100% positive that I wanted to Plan D. Very wise friends (and Dr Harley infact) advised me to go into Plan B and settle down. I am so very glad that I listened. You will need emotional energy in Plan D that you probably don't have right now. I really hope that you will give yourself a chance to find the peace the Plan B affords... It will ultimately help you if you DO follow through with D.
Am I saying I don't want you to Plan D your WH? NO!
One of the things Dr Harley says is that your emotions will lead you astray. That is the whole reason these plans work so well for so many. Please follow Plan B where you will find some peace and be in a better position to make GOOD decisions. OK?
We're not asking you to become a selfish person, Starfish. When we ask you to think about/take care of yourself, we mean consider & establish an 'ideal woman' that you aspire to become. Then, make that your goal.
You will progress in confidence & strength when you do this. Never perfect. Always making progress.
I I can't forgive all that he has done. I deserve better!
In no situation would you offer blanket forgiveness anyway. Forgiveness has to be earned. Of course you deserve better than a wayward! No one disputes that. But emotions change from day to day. Logic does not.
As Susie Q said. Plan B was never about him. It was never supposed to be a test of how quickly he would repent. Nor was it 'let's see what he does when I am not around'.
Plan B is for YOUR personal recovery and you are so clearly not ready for a divorce, other than one on paper.
I know you are relishing trying the one way you are allowed to lash out at him in Plan B. With divorce papers.
But that is not the attitude to take with Divorce. Nor do I think you appreciate how much it will hurt YOU to divorce before you are ready.
Please start thinking more about YOU rather than what he is doing, saying, thinking, feeling, may or may not have done in the past, may or may not do in the future. Start thinking about whether YOU are ready to D, whether you can experience a determination to do so which is apart from anger and that you have that feeling for a long period of time.
Thinking about how much you can hurt him with D papers is POINTLESS. You're poking a dumb drunk with a stick.
Originally Posted by starfish75
I haven't been able to really cry and feel the loss with true sadness yet.
You haven't let go yet. Hopefully the GPS was the last thing you were holding on to that connected you to him
Originally Posted by starfish75
I'm working on boundaries for myself, but it's taking time for me to make changes. I'm not used to just thinking about myself.
Well this is your main job for the next six months at least, so get to work on that. You'll get 2x4s until you get it right. Cause we love ya.
Star, I am glad that you fessed up. You know what you did went against the plans, and you did it anyways. How does it feel? Awful, right? That's why we told you not to do it. How does your WH feel about your slip in PB? Well, he doesn't even know about it, so it made no difference to him.
You are essentially living a new DDay and the emotions on DDay are devastating. We often tell BSs not to react to their wayward's actions but instead, they must ACT on their own plans.
Honestly, Star, I'm not trying to be cruel, but nothing has changed in you sitch. The only thing that happened is that you have knowledge that you shouldn't have.
Could my WH have spent countless of days with many OW ove the past 2.5 years I've been in PB? Certainly. Would that affect if I would consider recovery? Most likely. Thing is, I don't know about it. And I wouldn't know about it.
There is going to come a time, in the near future that you will justify your snooping as something good. It wasn't good for your Plan B.
Think about the reason that you snooped. It was you breaking your PB. Last time, you completely broke your PB by direct contact with your WH. This time, you allowed yourself to break your PB and you justified it by saying that it wasn't as bad as last time. That is dangerously close to what a wayward does to justify their actions.
Listen to Pep, Indie, Susie and the others who are telling you, not what you want to hear, but what you need to hear.
There were holes in my PB. I was not perfect. It's not easy. I know that Plna D is not going to be easy but I can GUARANTEE that with the help of Pb, and MB, I am a lot closer to that option than had I tried it on my own.
And don't dismiss Pep's advice about not dating. There are going to be moments when those thoughts will creep in. I've had them. My boundaries stayed up HIGH in the beginning and they only got higher as I realized how easily someone, who is hurting can fall down that slippery slope. None of us want to see you go wayward.
It appears that when people give you feedback where you need to correct your thinking and acting you disappear. Either you believe in MB or you don't. Don't waiste a lot of good people's time if you are not going to listen and grown.
I agree with Pep you do need to learn not to be so reactionary and to control you emotions.
I have no desire, interest, etc. of turning wayward. It won't happen. That's not any interest to me right now, dating, etc. if it becomes a concern I will post and let you all know. I took my marriage vows with every part of my being and heart! I will never betray the vows I took, until long after D. I know myself well enough to say this.
I haven't been ignoring advice here at all, instead I had a very busy day. I went and paid a retainer for an attorney today to help me protect myself financially. Doesn't mean I have to follow through with divorce, but then again, I'm dealing with a serial cheater and believe that I can never trust him again. His IC is having to peel the layers back like an onion, so it could take him forever and I personally don't have forever to wait for him. This wasn't the life I chose... I have to do and WILL DO what is best for me! I have been strong throughout all of this, and yes I've had my weak moments too.... I still have grieving yet to do, but I've had enough and don't think I want to know anymore, as it's not going to matter to me at this point. I could forgive one affair, possibly two, but I cannot deal with a serial cheater and a secret 2nd life. Thank God I didn't have any children with him! As painful as infertility has been, I believe it was for a reason.
WH came by the house today at lunch (no idea why), but I had IM let him know that he could pick up his mail at my mom's house. My mom doesn't want to see him right now either, so we forwarded to his new address. I of course didn't answer the door when he came by and hid in the bathroom with the dogs. I was worried that he might have heard them bark a few times. I tried so keep them quiet by consoling them and letting them kiss me, but it was still hard! I had all of the blinds closed (no way to live). My mom said I need sunshine, but I'm worried about him seeing inside, me or the dogs.
Also, I'm nervous about posting anything regarding D right now, as I'm afraid my WH might find my thread. We started using the MB questionnaires in MC and he knows I thought highly of the site, etc. if his mind starts wandering, then he could find this thread and I'm worried.
I agree with Pep you do need to learn not to be so reactionary and to control you emotions.
Much easier said than done... Please let me know how you did this and how it changed you and tge outcome of your sutuation or you as a person. I'm not always emotional, but I am allowed to feel and have emotions as I'm a human being. I feel that I've been rather calm thought my whole ordeal, kind, consoling, thankful for the truth that has been revealed so far, patient, etc.
Yes, I checked my GPS and confirmed my suspicions. Do I have this app anymore? NO! I deleted it. I have no way of checking on WH right now and trying my hardest to do what is best for me!
Can't sleep tonight. Started AD's two nights ago. Nervous stomach, but not sure it's because of the AD's. My mind won't stop running... I am feeling very down tonight! . It's just so hard to comprehend everything and I'm feeling such a sense of loss tonight. I'm missing the life and love I thought we had.
Difficulty in sleeping is, unfortunately, normal, at least for a while.
I had a very hard time sleeping for some weeks after D-Day. And I never even went into Plan B. It's a horrible time where your world feels upside-down, and everything seems unbelievable while you process what you have just been through.
The ADs probably won't help much with sleeping; they will help your emotions over the next few weeks though. You might ask your doctor for a light sleeping medication that will help get you to sleep and keep you asleep. Many are not habit-forming, although my doc said it's possible to come to depend on them mentally.
Keep surrounding yourself with supportive friends and family. Get out for pretty walks and exercise. Eat healthy meals and snacks. Do nice things for yourself. Eventually your mind will stop churning and your tummy will settle down, along with your frayed nerves.
I still struggle with sleeping, a year on! Even though I dont have any noticeable depression to speak of any more, every now and then the sleepnessness comes back for a few days. Its the only way I have of knowing that I still have 'low' plan B rollercoaster days. I find it quite a useful tracker of my progress, as they get further apart all the time.
I just nap when I can in the daytime to make up for it and wait for it to even out again. It usually does.
Sorry you can't sleep Star. I'm unsure of what symptoms AD's can give, I didn't take them myself. But I do know that after D Day and during early Plan B, I definitely had the nervous stomach and anxiety. I even had night sweats, something I had never had before and never want again!!!
I know during early Plan B I felt I had lost a limb, no longer having my H in my life. I felt I had to learn to walk again. Your MB name has me curious, I was reminded the other week during a quiz at work about your thread. Apparently, starfish often lose limbs as a defence mechanism against predators. Over time, they can grow a limb back. At the time I learned this you were in Plan A... now you are in Plan B, I thought I would raise it. Maybe you already know this. I just thought it was worth pointing out in case you didn't.
And maybe some useless trivia will help you sleep!
Very interesting info on the starfish!!! I love starfish and anything having to do with sea life!
I have an appt with my IC in 20 minutes. Thoughts were racing through my head last night. Thinking about how hateful my BIL was to me and he still hasn't apologized. Thinking if I'm making the right decisions, questioning the last nine years, but also remembering a lot of good and happy times. I'm mourning for the man I met and fell in love with and devastated that my dreams have been shattered at having a family with him someday.
One of my neighbors doesn't understand Plan B and she told me that she thinks we need to communicate which really ticked me off! I have tried every possible way to communicate with him and giving him a safe haven to open up to me. I have nothing left to give to him. Some people just don't understand!
I have so much paperwork to complete for my attorney (financial) by tomorrow. Breaking everything down is making it more of a reality. I know I'm making the right decision for myself, but it's still hard!
One of my neighbors doesn't understand Plan B and she told me that she thinks we need to communicate which really ticked me off! I have tried every possible way to communicate with him and giving him a safe haven to open up to me. I have nothing left to give to him. Some people just don't understand!
I had so many people say this to me on the dawn of Plan B: 'How can you get 'closure' without talking?' 'Eventually you two will need to talk'.
Basically just parroting hippy nonsense they had heard on TV.
People who have never had an actual wayward on their hands dont understand that communication with a pathological liar is never going to work!
That the best way of getting 'closure' (how I loathe that word) is closing the door, not keeping it open.
Strangely enough the same people who gave that advice now think I got it right. Within a few months they saw I was happy and marvelled.
Yesterday was the most difficult day so far... I met with the attorney that I retained. Everybody seems to think I'm making the right decision, but I'm still having a hard time at the thought of D.
Feeling a little better today... Washed my car, did some laundry and went for a quick dip in the pool!
A married couple (mutual friends of the marriage) each sent WH and I the following video yesterday:
I accidentally found out the they sent it to WH too, because the female friend accudentally told me and then said the next day asked if he could join them for church. The couple in the video belong to their church and it was viewed on Easter Sunday by the entire congregation. Thought I would share...
Our 5 year anniversary is this Saturday and two of my girlfriends invited me to have dinner with them so I'm not lonely...
Just an update... Still in Plan B I accidentally found out the they sent it to WH too, because the female friend accudentally told me and then said the next day asked if he could join them for church.
Since you're in Plan B did you tell this friend of yours that you don't want to hear anything about him?
Do whatever nourishes you. Get a pedicure, indulge in Starbucks/Coldstone, whatever is a treat for you. Walk on the beach, shop at the mall, watch a favorite movie, etc. Know in your heart that you gave all you could, and be at peace. Know that the good thoughts of many of us on this board are with you.
Today is our 5 year wedding anniversary... It's going to be a very rough day!!!
This is the last thing you posted on here. What frightens me most is when a BS goes silent, it usually means they stopped following MB. I'm hoping that's not the case here.
Today is our 5 year wedding anniversary... It's going to be a very rough day!!!
This is the last thing you posted on here. What frightens me most is when a BS goes silent, it usually means they stopped following MB. I'm hoping that's not the case here.
Hello everyone! Haven't been feeling well and have had a lot to do with my FMLA, etc.
WH left a note for me at lunch today:
I can no longer be kept locked from our home, the home I pay the mortgage on.� I'm requesting that you have a key made for me today and I'll come pick it up after work.� You can let me know where I can pick it up from.� I will not come to the house unanounced.� You will be notified when I need to come get something.� You can choose to be there or not be there, that is up to you.
This is just ridiculous... he is not right in the head to even think its appropriate to ask me for a key. I thought my neighbor left the note and then I realized it was from him. �
Unless you have filed for D (or legal separation) and have a standing order that you have exclusive right to the home, your WH is legally allowed to enter the house. You don't have to make him a key but he can enter the house. Just an FYI.
I'm not responding or abiding by his wishes. He wants his soccer bag, so should I just leave it on the porch and not answer the door or completely ignore him?
I'm not responding or abiding by his wishes. He wants his soccer bag, so should I just leave it on the porch and not answer the door or completely ignore him?
Did his request for the soccer bag go through IM? If not, then you've got your answer.
DO NOT read any more mail that he leaves for you. THis is something he could have sent through your IM and has chosen not to.
While you may need to legally let him in, ATM, I would make him make you. KWIM?
Make him get a lawyer to get in, or make him break in so you can report an intruder to police (they never do break in, though do they? They want the BS to LET them in) don't roll over and let him in.
Any legal claim he makes that you're witholding property can be easily disproved by your IM emails. Its easily proven that he has been offered a civilised way to get his things.
Don't respond to the soccer bag request. It would be so so easy for him to ask your IM for this. Why hasn't he? Its a test to see whether you're reading the notes. If he really wants it, he'll ask your IM
How did he ask for the bag? Same note, different note or something else?
What does your standing orders/state law say about access to the house? If it says you have exclusive use, you may be worrying for nothing. Take a look.
Having a rough day... A fellow co-worker emailed me today that she spoke with WH yesterday and he told her that we haven't communicated in over 2 & 1/2 weeks, that I locked him out of the house and blah, blah, blah. She then proceeded to tell me that he said he is really confused about what he wants and that he failed me and our marriage, didn't really know what marriage was all about and that he married me because he loved me and I had been the longest relationship that he had ever had and he felt like it was the right thing to do. He said he had loved me and he "thinks" he still loves me.
(((((Star)))))) I know how it feels to hear from the WS and be triggered. It is tough. But you are a strong person and you know how to deal with it. Tell the person who told you this that you can't hear anymore about him. The bad feelings from this will pass and you are plugging up the cracks to avoid futures triggers.
He could easily have you back if he passed the polygraph. He didn't do that, instead he whined to an acquaintance, probably hoping that it would get back to you and effect your resolve. He is being manipulative and because you still love him, it is having an effect on you. Keep up with the good work, you are doing an excellent job and making progress. This is just a bump in the road.
Having a rough day... A fellow co-worker emailed me today that she spoke with WH yesterday and he told her that we haven't communicated in over 2 & 1/2 weeks, that I locked him out of the house and blah, blah, blah. She then proceeded to tell me that he said he is really confused about what he wants and that he failed me and our marriage, didn't really know what marriage was all about and that he married me because he loved me and I had been the longest relationship that he had ever had and he felt like it was the right thing to do. He said he had loved me and he "thinks" he still loves me.
Oh, I wish I hadn't heard all of this today...
Okay, so there was a hole in your Plan B here. You got news of WS back to you. This hole affected your emotional state. Over time that's going to be some serious wear and tear on your emotions and on your health. What can you do different to plug this hole in the future?
I want you to see how very dangerous your husbands behavior is.
The fact is THIS TIME he told a co-worker who shared the conversation with you. You got lucky.
The conversation COULD HAVE easily gone a different way. He could have had that conversation with a female co-worker who COMMISERATED with him -- who acknowledged his victim status -- who was sympathic to him -- who stroked his ego for being such a good guy -- who told him that HER husband was MEAN just like starfish -- that he shouldn't have gotten married so young or just because he thought he should -------
Or maybe she confides in him that her marriage is falling apart too.
AND NOW YOU'RE ON TO AFFAIR #3. Just like that.
All you should take away from that conversation is that your WH has not changed his dangerous behavior. He still has inappropriate boundries with women. And that he is not safe for you.
The fact is THIS TIME he told a co-worker who shared the conversation with you. You got lucky.
Believe me, the fact that the coworker told Starfish does not make her one of the good guys.
That was one of my key mistakes.
OW frequently would say to me: Oh softlad mentioned x, y, z about your marriage: you two ok?'
Of course I was taken aback that he'd spoken to her about personal things, but stupidly I thought HER openness with me about it made her trustworthy. When he was stubborn about talking to her, I felt reassured by her behaviour at least.
She would even offer advice to my on my marriage.
Any normal woman whose coworker is a married man would avoid getting into deep conversation about his personal life.
If he was so inappropriate as to mention it she'd say 'oh too bad' and drop the subject.
She most certainly would not interfere and contact a woman who had not confided in her unless two things were going on
1) She's concerned about what she's heard from WH and 'wants to help him' = poor boundaries.
2) She likes him and wants to know how troubled his marriage is, to know whether she can date him.
I'm actually quite nervous about this woman having Starfish's email address when she is so pally with WH.
I don't think she will do Sf's Plan B any favours and will seek to stay in contact with her for her own selfish reasons or for WHs selfish reasons, acting as his minion.
Just an update... Anxiety is really bad right now! I did speak with WH this past Sunday too and he was bringing up the past... when I started to become unhappy, depressed... which was all around the time that we started trying for a baby. I asked him if he was still in love with me and he told me that he loved me. He didn't seem to know the difference between being in love and loving another person. I'm assuming part of the fog.
I signed papers with my attorney this past Thursday and returned to work on Thursday, but didn't go on Friday. My attorney contacted WH attorney to let them know that I signed papers and they agreed to service/represent WH. He won't be getting served, but will see the papers this coming week.
I had a yoga class with my sister yesterday and when I came home, I found the following letter in an envelope on my door from WH:
BS,
Where do I begin? I don't know what happened to you and I over the years. I know there was a time when you and I were very happy together and a great couple. We enjoyed each others company and enjoyed what we did together no matter what it was we were doing, but something happened. Maybe I changed, maybe you did or maybe we both did. There was a change in behavior, communication, emotion, affection and more between us. Unfortunately for us we became two people living under the same roof.
I will blame myself for not talking with you about how I was feeling for the last 2-2 1/2 years. I felt lonely and unwanted. So what do you do when you feel like that? You go out looking for neighbors, friend's to hang out with. Maybe they will make you feel better. I realize now you had your own way of escaping and that was research and blogs. You're a fact finder BS, when things are wrong you need facts. When I have things wrong or I'm unhappy I seek activities or fun. Unfortunately again this doesn't work very well. You wanted facts and I could have cared less about either.
I have battled over what happened to us for a couple of months now. Maybe I was too inexperienced with long term relationships to know what marriage and life long commitment is. As time went by and we dated longer and longer, and we went to weddings, it just seemed to me this was the next step, you get married. Maybe it was too early and we should have gotten to know more about one another, but I truly thought I knew you and wanted to be with you the rest of my life. There were signs before we got married that maybe I should have paid more attention to, especially the big fight we had 4-6 weeks before the wedding. I look back at that now as a sign that both of us should have paid more attention to. I believe the fight may have showed how different our values are if we had paid attention to what was going on.
BS regardless of what went wrong, who changed or who didn't change or if I wasn't ready for marriage or if we weren't, you did not deserve the EA with OW#1 or what happened in Colorado. This is completely separate from the other problems we had. I take full responsibility for letting them enter into our lives and our marriage. I'm truly sorry for my actions and the pain it has caused you. Again, regardless of the problems we were having, you did not deserve this pain. I'm so so sorry for putting you through this. You deserved better. I should have manned up and told you about my problems with us before it ever got to this. Shame on me.
I know that I will learn and become a better person because of us. I know you will become a better person because of us. I wish you or I or us would have realized that we needed counseling a long time ago. I believe that it would have given us a chance at saving our marriage. You have said several times now that it's not fair to make you wait. We either take a leap of faith or go separate ways. You're right, it's not right to make you wait and it's not that I'm confused, it's because I know I hurt you deeply. A down to your core hurt, a type of hurt that I can't fathom. I thought waiting would prolong anymore hurt or that I or something would change the way I feel and have felt. I really care for you, I see down care for you, and I'm so sorry for what has happened. You asked me Sunday night "If I'm still in love with you", and I couldn't answer that question. Not only do you deserve someone who can answer "yes" to that question, but you deserve someone who can embrace that answer and not even think or question it. I have decided to move on with my life and to let you move on with yours. I'm so sorry. I'll miss you.
I can understand how you are feeling right now, signing the papers and speaking with WH.
I'm no expert, but it seems to me WH is still in the fog, particularly reading the 2nd & 3rd paragraphs. I'm sure others more experienced than I will be able to offer their opinions.
I know its sometimes hard but try and do something for yourself, as Scotty once said to me deflect.
I can understand how you are feeling right now, signing the papers and speaking with WH.
I'm no expert, but it seems to me WH is still in the fog, particularly reading the 2nd & 3rd paragraphs. I'm sure others more experienced than I will be able to offer their opinions.
I know its sometimes hard but try and do something for yourself, as Scotty once said to me deflect.
Thank you... I'm just not sure what to think about everything or his letter. I'm heading off to church with my mom and could really use and advice and support/care/love right now.
Just an update... Anxiety is really bad right now! I did speak with WH this past Sunday too and he was bringing up the past... when I started to become unhappy, depressed... which was all around the time that we started trying for a baby. I asked him if he was still in love with me and he told me that he loved me. He didn't seem to know the difference between being in love and loving another person. I'm assuming part of the fog.
I signed papers with my attorney this past Thursday and returned to work on Thursday, but didn't go on Friday. My attorney contacted WH attorney to let them know that I signed papers and they agreed to service/represent WH. He won't be getting served, but will see the papers this coming week.
I had a yoga class with my sister yesterday and when I came home, I found the following letter in an envelope on my door from WH:
BS,
Where do I begin? I don't know what happened to you and I over the years. I know there was a time when you and I were very happy together and a great couple. We enjoyed each others company and enjoyed what we did together no matter what it was we were doing, but something happened. Maybe I changed, maybe you did or maybe we both did. There was a change in behavior, communication, emotion, affection and more between us. Unfortunately for us we became two people living under the same roof.
I will blame myself for not talking with you about how I was feeling for the last 2-2 1/2 years. I felt lonely and unwanted. So what do you do when you feel like that? You go out looking for neighbors, friend's to hang out with. Maybe they will make you feel better. I realize now you had your own way of escaping and that was research and blogs. You're a fact finder BS, when things are wrong you need facts. When I have things wrong or I'm unhappy I seek activities or fun. Unfortunately again this doesn't work very well. You wanted facts and I could have cared less about either.
I have battled over what happened to us for a couple of months now. Maybe I was too inexperienced with long term relationships to know what marriage and life long commitment is. As time went by and we dated longer and longer, and we went to weddings, it just seemed to me this was the next step, you get married. Maybe it was too early and we should have gotten to know more about one another, but I truly thought I knew you and wanted to be with you the rest of my life. There were signs before we got married that maybe I should have paid more attention to, especially the big fight we had 4-6 weeks before the wedding. I look back at that now as a sign that both of us should have paid more attention to. I believe the fight may have showed how different our values are if we had paid attention to what was going on.
BS regardless of what went wrong, who changed or who didn't change or if I wasn't ready for marriage or if we weren't, you did not deserve the EA with OW#1 or what happened in Colorado. This is completely separate from the other problems we had. I take full responsibility for letting them enter into our lives and our marriage. I'm truly sorry for my actions and the pain it has caused you. Again, regardless of the problems we were having, you did not deserve this pain. I'm so so sorry for putting you through this. You deserved better. I should have manned up and told you about my problems with us before it ever got to this. Shame on me.
I know that I will learn and become a better person because of us. I know you will become a better person because of us. I wish you or I or us would have realized that we needed counseling a long time ago. I believe that it would have given us a chance at saving our marriage. You have said several times now that it's not fair to make you wait. We either take a leap of faith or go separate ways. You're right, it's not right to make you wait and it's not that I'm confused, it's because I know I hurt you deeply. A down to your core hurt, a type of hurt that I can't fathom. I thought waiting would prolong anymore hurt or that I or something would change the way I feel and have felt. I really care for you, I see down care for you, and I'm so sorry for what has happened. You asked me Sunday night "If I'm still in love with you", and I couldn't answer that question. Not only do you deserve someone who can answer "yes" to that question, but you deserve someone who can embrace that answer and not even think or question it. I have decided to move on with my life and to let you move on with yours. I'm so sorry. I'll miss you.
Well, since I did speak with him on Sunday, then I broke Plan B. I was getting ready to file for D. I haven't responded or spoke with him since I received the latter yesterday. Doesn't really seem to be anything left for me to do, but file for D. I need to move on with my life one way or the other, but I'm still heartbroken after 9 years together and he only had bad feeling the past two years, but never conveyed that to me. So 2 bad years out of 7 = give up on marriage to him I guess.
Star, I can relate to how your feeling, different things going on right now, but like you I've been unsure what to think, it's hard not to try and analyse our WH and their actions. Know that you are not alone, you have many MB friends who are here for you.
I know other more senior MBers and the vets will give you the insight you are seeking.
Maybe you and your mother could spend some time together after church, try to keep busy. Is there something you would like to do a new hobby, a holiday, even just a weekend, you could maybe plan for, something even if you are not ready to undertake right now you can start thinking about and planning. Having a goal, feeling that you are taking control back again, after facing uncertainty caused by WH letter and your recent contact.
My thoughts are with you Star. You have come along way, have grown stronger you can get through this hurdle.
I read your WH letter without the emotional attachment that you have...WH is deep in the fog. Do not try to analyze what he said and read things into it.
It was basically an easy way out for WH to continue to ignore the fact that all he has to do to is become honest. The letter was for "himself"...to convince himself that he is a good guy. It is self serving.
I'm so sorry for you Star. Some people would rather choose to run than choose to become honest people and redeem themselves.
SF, I am glad you came back. Was wondering what happened to you!
Can I tell you what STBX did? When he left here and I entered Plan B, he was begging me not to D him, proclaiming his love for me, wrote me a love letter, crying, at one point told me he wanted to curl up and die, etc.
Within a short time (weeks) he was with OW4 and it was a whole different story. He told my DD (15) all kinds of fogbabbly about how he purposely had the A with OW3 so that he could kill my love for him and move on as we weren't ever really happy together and all other kinds of nonsense.
My FIL told me a short time later he had a "very long letter" he had written to me..."explaining everything" that he didn't want to pass thru the IM.
Thanks but no thanks.
I told FIL I would never read such a letter and not to bother. It would have probably been the same nonsense as your WH's letter.
You two are divorcing over your WH's affairs and refusal to make meaningful changes to become the faithful and honest husband he needs to be. Period. There is no other reason. The letter was written in an effort to assuage WH's guilt. More selfishness.
Please go back into Plan B and have the IM send a message stating that any further letters left in the door will be destroyed and not read. If you allow it, he will continue to contact you and it will be a hinderance to your personal recovery....
Does anybody have any words of wisdom for me today...? I'm feeling really down and could use some help.
How about some silly jokes?
What's The Difference Between Roast Beef And Pea Soup? Anyone Can Roast Beef.
Where Do You Find a Dog With No Legs? Right Where You Left Him.
Why Do Gorillas Have Big Nostrils? Because They Have Big Fingers .
Why Don't Blind People Like To Sky Dive? Because It Scares The Dog.
A couple drove several miles down a country road, not saying a word. An earlier discussion had led to an argument, and neither wanted to concede their position. As they passed a barnyard of mules and pigs, the wife sarcastically asked, "Relatives of yours?" "Yep," the husband replied, "In-laws."
A Texan farmer goes to Australia for a vacation. There he meets an Aussie farmer and gets talking. The Aussie shows off his big wheat field and the Texan says, "Oh! We have wheat fields that are at least twice as large."
Then they walk around the ranch a little, and the Aussie shows off his herd of cattle. The Texan immediately says, "We have longhorns that are at least twice as large as your cows."
The conversation has almost died when the Texan sees a herd of kangaroos hopping through the field. He asks, "And what are those?"
The Aussie replies with an incredulous look, "Don't you have any grasshoppers in Texas?"
There are no real surprises here regarding his actions. Everything he is says and does is foggy. Everything is 'oh woe is me! Life is too hard for my poor foggy brain! I need to find myself!' Um so what.
But I am surprised at YOU. Knowing MB, you know that an unrepentant wayward will only dole out pain if allowed. So why did you allow him to?
If he really wants to speak with you, he'll contact your IM saying all the right things. He won't sneak an ego-boost-for-him-lots-of-pain-for-you-grenade under your defences.
So WHY did you speak with him on Sunday?
WHY read a letter from him instead of tossing it out?
Do you enjoy being kicked in the teeth? Being used as cake?
This was pure manipulation. He wants you to "buy in" to THAT VERSION of your "break-up". Cuz he doesn't look so bad in that one. You share the blame in that version.
He is still refusing to accept responsibility. The TRUTH is he has been unfaithful and dishonest. And has refused to give you honesty about the last few years of your very own life.
Stop letting him through. Why would you do that to yourself? Hasn't he done enough?
This was pure manipulation. He wants you to "buy in" to THAT VERSION of your "break-up". Cuz he doesn't look so bad in that one. You share the blame in that version.
He is still refusing to accept responsibility. The TRUTH is he has been unfaithful and dishonest. And has refused to give you honesty about the last few years of your very own life.
Stop letting him through. Why would you do that to yourself? Hasn't he done enough?
No contact until he "gets it".
I couldn't agree with you more! It's like he is rewriting our marriage and blaming me for a lot of it. He doesn't want to do the work and it's obvious. I know I deserve so much better, but it's still so hard when I close my eyes because all I can ever see is "US". My heart is hurting so bad right now. I just don't ever see him coming out of this fog or his pscho-babble nonsense. He will be going in to review the papers that I signed with his attorney this week. I never wanted a divorce, so this is tremendously painful for me. I trusted too much... I loved too much... I gave my everything (heart and soul) to this man who has stomped all over it! I loved him so much, that I wanted a little piece of him and me together, so we had been trying for a family the past 2 1/2- 3 years, during the same time he had his affairs. I'm so upset at all the things I put my body through trying to have a baby with the man that I thought was the love of my life.
SF, I am glad you came back. Was wondering what happened to you!
Can I tell you what STBX did? When he left here and I entered Plan B, he was begging me not to D him, proclaiming his love for me, wrote me a love letter, crying, at one point told me he wanted to curl up and die, etc.
Within a short time (weeks) he was with OW4 and it was a whole different story. He told my DD (15) all kinds of fogbabbly about how he purposely had the A with OW3 so that he could kill my love for him and move on as we weren't ever really happy together and all other kinds of nonsense.
My FIL told me a short time later he had a "very long letter" he had written to me..."explaining everything" that he didn't want to pass thru the IM.
Thanks but no thanks.
I told FIL I would never read such a letter and not to bother. It would have probably been the same nonsense as your WH's letter.
You two are divorcing over your WH's affairs and refusal to make meaningful changes to become the faithful and honest husband he needs to be. Period. There is no other reason. The letter was written in an effort to assuage WH's guilt. More selfishness.
Please go back into Plan B and have the IM send a message stating that any further letters left in the door will be destroyed and not read. If you allow it, he will continue to contact you and it will be a hinderance to your personal recovery....
Does anybody have any words of wisdom for me today...? I'm feeling really down and could use some help.
What you are feeling is the after effects of breaking Plan B. Fells awful doesn't it? The next time you are even remotely considering breaking Plan B, remember what the crash afterwards feels like and how it's not worth it. You know what to do. Get dark and let your IM deal with his fogbabble.
Does anybody have any words of wisdom for me today...? I'm feeling really down and could use some help.
What you are feeling is the after effects of breaking Plan B. Fells awful doesn't it? The next time you are even remotely considering breaking Plan B, remember what the crash afterwards feels like and how it's not worth it. You know what to do. Get dark and let your IM deal with his fogbabble.
Yes, the pain is horrendous!!! My sister came over tonight to talk to me and cheer me up!
WH will be meeting with his attorney to go over the paperwork that I signed with my attorney. This is all preliminary stuff right now. I am not completely ready for d, but I don't think any other time would make me feel any better about the situation. A big part of me knows that I deserve better than this, but I also have a fear that he won't come out of his fog until the d is already final and then it will be too late. He has been out of the house since Mid-March and I've been trickled-truthed since January, but started having doubts about him at the end of December. I doubt I will ever have all of the facts, but I'm ok with that if we do d. I don't think I would want to know everything if we d. He will have to come to terms with all that he has done someday and I'm sure it will be a huge train-wreck. I'm just thankful that I don't have to live with something like that. I can't imagine the pain from all the lies. I told my sister tonight that a part of me has pity for him.
I haven't contacted him since I received his letter. He wrote it to me after he had his IC session. I realize the pain reading his letter has caused me and know that I need to go back into no contact. I just have a feeling that he's going to make things extremely difficult for me with the d. I could be wrong and he might just want to hurry and get it over with so he can get on with his fantasy life.
I'm doing my best to focus on myself again. I am upset with myself for letting him back in, but I just keep hoping that he will realize what he has done and come out of the fog. He may never do that, so all I have left is myself. My dreams haunt me at night, but I'm so thankful that I have two warm, fuzzy dogs to comfort me. I build the body pillows all around me at night and ask God to hold me in his arms and keep me safe, protect my heart and give me a clear mind to think rationally.
It was a crazy morning... Woke up to anxiety/diarrhea, etc. it was really early, so I went to get an ice coffee and took the dogs for a drive along the beach in the car with the windows down to catch some fresh air. As we were coming back, I was stopped by a light at an intersection and saw a mutual female co-worker/ex-gf of WH car leaving another coworkers condo development. She turned in the opposite direction of her house and proceeded to go in the direction of the place where WH has been living. It was definitely a God moment today giving me additional confirmation on why I shouldn't be wasting my time with WH and to move on with my life! Yes, I confirmed that she dropped him off this morning and was so pissed this morning, but it was the anger that I needed to make me see his true colors!
A friend told me last night, when a person shows you who they really are, BELIEVE THEM! These words have carried me through today...
Lots of support at work, which is amazing!!! I have a new parking spot too! Holding my head high and smiling and laughing as much as I can! I'm going to fake it until I make it... well, at work anyway!
I know that I will learn and become a better person because of us. I know you will become a better person because of us. I wish you or I or us would have realized that we needed counseling a long time ago.
Just to point this out:
He could fix this now and chooses not to. You have handed him the map. He has chosen to NOT follow it and instead to blab to you in extremely hurtful ways to try to pretend that there is nothing he can do.
It's baloney, and as others have pointed out you will be in much better shape if you keep your Plan B walls high and never allow any contact from him again!
One day he might wake up and realize that he has the map in his hand and has being a dolt and not following it.
I haven't had any communication with WH since May 25th and then he left the letter at my door the following morning, which i previously posted. Today I received the following message... lol!
I need to get in the house tomorrow after counseling to get our tax docs, pay stubs, among other docs. I'll be by around 7:00 ish or a little later.
Also BS, I think we can make this easy on each other if you let me know what your wanting. If we can live with what each other are wanting, then this can be pretty cut and dry. I know I'm mentally and physically exhausted and im sure you are as well. �I don't have energy to be fighting, plus I really don't want and don't feel we need too. We need to be friendly with each other, because our dogs, our kids.
He really expects me to be at our house when HE WANTS and then proceeds to want to end 9 years together in a CUT & DRY fashion... lol.. This makes me laugh!!!
By the way, I have a new parking spot and there has been absolutely no communication at work... Thank God!
I haven't had any communication with WH since May 25th and then he left the letter at my door the following morning, which i previously posted. Today I received the following message... lol!
I need to get in the house tomorrow after counseling to get our tax docs, pay stubs, among other docs. I'll be by around 7:00 ish or a little later.
Also BS, I think we can make this easy on each other if you let me know what your wanting. If we can live with what each other are wanting, then this can be pretty cut and dry. I know I'm mentally and physically exhausted and im sure you are as well. �I don't have energy to be fighting, plus I really don't want and don't feel we need too. We need to be friendly with each other, because our dogs, our kids.
He really expects me to be at our house when HE WANTS and then proceeds to want to end 9 years together in a CUT & DRY fashion... lol.. This makes me laugh!!!
By the way, I have a new parking spot and there has been absolutely no communication at work... Thank God!
Don't respond in any way and certainly don't give him access to the house.
Star, I know the last few days haven't been easy to you. Its sometimes hard without the contact but reading his letters is causing you so much pain and setting your recovery back.
I agree if the documents are for any legal matter then go through the lawyers.
I haven't had any communication with WH since May 25th and then he left the letter at my door the following morning, which i previously posted. Today I received the following message... lol!
If you read the message, this is contact. Plan B crack. It does set your recovery back. Bet you're hurting. I know one of my cracks in Plan B was about banking. I was so hurt that I was still bleeding on the floor, and WH was worried about BANKING!!!
No good comes from the cracks. It just delays our healing.
Star, if you last got contact on 26th (?) you have been no contact for less than two weeks.
You are going to die a death of a thousand cuts if you keep this up.
Originally Posted by starfish75
He really expects me to be at our house when HE WANTS and then proceeds to want to end 9 years together in a CUT & DRY fashion... lol.. This makes me laugh!!!
All waywards want this star. He is still an addict.
Now, what are you going to do to deal with future contact attempts from WH?
I haven't had any communication with WH since May 25th and then he left the letter at my door the following morning, which i previously posted. Today I received the following message... lol!
If you read the message, this is contact. Plan B crack. It does set your recovery back. Bet you're hurting. I know one of my cracks in Plan B was about banking. I was so hurt that I was still bleeding on the floor, and WH was worried about BANKING!!!
No good comes from the cracks. It just delays our healing.
Star, if you last got contact on 26th (?) you have been no contact for less than two weeks.
You are going to die a death of a thousand cuts if you keep this up.
Originally Posted by starfish75
He really expects me to be at our house when HE WANTS and then proceeds to want to end 9 years together in a CUT & DRY fashion... lol.. This makes me laugh!!!
All waywards want this star. He is still an addict.
Now, what are you going to do to deal with future contact attempts from WH?
Tell us your plan. Be accountable.
AND... what colour are your nails?
I'm going to continue to ignore him and forward anything like this in the future to my IM or attorney. I was doing ok until this happened. I actually had a good day yesterday at work and didn't cry once! Well, my eyes welled up with tears once after I received a sweet note from my FIL. He wanted me to know that he was thinking about me and loves me.
My toes are painted a gold color right now and my fingernails are plain. Trying to figure out what color I want to try next.
I'm going to continue to ignore him and forward anything like this in the future to my IM or attorney.
That would technically still fall within Plan B, but why would you forward them? Anything sent directly to you, to the place where you have told him you won't read anything, is a bit like sending letters to an old address.
Nobody would send important letters to an old address. But you might if you wanted to 'test' whether what you were told was the truth.
It's a safe assumption that there is nothing in future letters except the words TESTING, TESTING, 123. Or Perhaps - DANGER, FOG AHEAD - DO NOT READ ON.
So why forward those? He has proper ways to get in touch for proper messages. You dont need to forward on his tests.
I also think you are just paying the letters too much respect (assuming they might be important, planning to forward them) and you need to find a way to excorsize them, much like ghosts.
I found it highly satisfying to just dump them in the trash but I appreciate that might not be everyone's way. (Plus there is atemptaion to fish them back out and read them if you feel a bit weak later on. So unless it truly is your thing, or you dump a leftover casserole on it immediately, don�t do this)
Hoping was having some trouble in her reponse to letters, so I suggested the following
Originally Posted by indiegirl
I would throw letters away. While sending them back sends a strong message to him, its not about him.
Do the best thing for you. In fact, if you have a chimnea, or firepit (somewhere safe to burn things) I would burn any letters.
My tip - burn any future letters, unopened, along with a wish. Write out your wish (a wish for you - not for the marriage) seven times, and sign your name (with a flourish) seven times after that. Its supposed to motivate your mind to discover the route to your wish.
Its worked for me though I've only used it twice. I failed my first year at Uni so I wished for a good degree and I got a First. When SL told me he didn't want children as a ruse to cover up his A, I decided to try it again. I wanted to wish for children, but I thought that would be selfish, so I wished for insight and understanding instead. This was about an hour before finding MB. I watched the flames then went straight inside and googled for advice.
The thing that makes you want to open letters is a) your very healthy desire to look for light and hope and b) a lingering legacy of his control and gaslighting of you.
I just think a) hope is a beautiful thing, but it must be directed inwardly where we can feel inspired as to our next course of action. It must not be pinned on our enemies, making us helpless. And b) you must burn, smash and destroy any more of his attempts to guilt and manipulate you. How dare he!!!!
She liked the wish idea and decided to do it now, burning any letters that arrive separately.
Figure out what it is that tempts you and turn his own weapon back on him. .
For Hoping, she was always made to feel guilty for not dancing to her H's tune, so I thought the burning would be empowering. His guilt-trips would then be burned along with her own wishes. What he wants doenst matter in Plan B, its all about her.
Well, the IM needs to factually tell WH that Star got the letter, didn't read it, all important financial messages need to go through IM or attorneys. The IM can add that should WH ever end his affair and choose to recover the marriage he can let IM know so that she can pass that message to you.
That way he will get the message you are not reading them and all info goes through IM or attorney.
Otherwise he thinks he is communicating with her whether she responds of not.....
Set a clear boundary marker via IM reinterating the deal.
Also, don't be there that evening just in case he tries to push your boundary.
WH had his attorney mail my attorney a letter that he needs a key and to have access to our home. Can't reach my attorney or get an answer as to what I'm supposed to do. Frustrating!
OW#1 called me today from her BH's phone telling me to never speak with her WH again and accusing me of EA with her husband... lol! We only communicated to get the facts about our lying spouses. Sorry my dear, I know what healthy boundaries are!
She told me that WH emailed her that we are getting D, forget the NC letter and asking her if they could still be friends. She said she responded back. I told her that she is a liar, just like him as she promised NC to me. Told her that they are all a bunch of liars and deserved each other. I told her she could have him! I deserve so much better and moving on with my life and good luck with your M. BYE! Click!
WH had his attorney mail my attorney a letter that he needs a key and to have access to our home. Can't reach my attorney or get an answer as to what I'm supposed to do. Frustrating!
You aren't supposed to do anything. A lawyer has told you something your H wants. Um, so what?
Just email your lawyer to send an appropriate response. You aren't witholding any property from him, you simply don't want to see a cheater. That's not illegal! Oh and get them to tell Mr Wayward's legal lackey to deal with THEM in future and to not send you distressing letters.
How did an OW get your phone number?
Although I liked hearing about you telling her off, you got a lot of information from that discusion.
Information from wayward-land prevents your plan being dark.
Next time a skank manages to reach you on the phone, don't let her speak and say: "I'm sorry, I don't speak to adulterers, my time is too valuable and I have to go paint my toenails now." Click!
For a WH I would recommend a simple Click! with no words
Ah I see now. As if she hadn't ambushed you enough already!
Hmmmm I think her BH needs to know what she did. It sounds like WH is still in contact with her and her BH needs to know. Her BH needs to know she broke contact.
I know you're supposed to be in Plan B, but you engaging with her broke that. She took her BH's phone and messed with you. OW are very low and sneaky. I'm sure she's still in contact with your WH.
I need my space and he doesn't need anything. I have given him everything he has asked for in the past. It's just a power struggle!
He's fighting me to keep the house. I really need to make sure I can afford everything on my own. Oh, he's also asking for me to pay his attorney fees and pay rent (he says I kicked him out and changed the locks)!!! lol
He chose to stay out of the house, not willing to do any work towards R!
So you have a whole week to do your nails multiple times over and not think about a silly key...........
lol! His attorney said he can get a locksmith per the letter.
Are you going to let OW's BH know of her breaking contact? He deserves to know.
Yes, I texted him last night that WH might try to contact her and to keep an eye out for it if it happens. She must have intercepted his text and called me today from his phone. She also left me a nasty voicemail, but I think I put her in her place once we spoke over the phone. They deserve each other! I'm sick of lying, cheating and fake people who destroy lives and not willing to pick up the pieces or do what needs to be done to better themselves or their families. It really pisses me off!
I'm in a much better place now... and I'll be ok. Not living a life of lies with a cheater is nice.. Yes, lonely at times, but I WILL BE OK! I will survive and I will make it through this and hopefully be able to look back one day and be thankful that I didn't have the baby I wanted and prayed for everyday with this man who I don't even know anymore... maybe I never did!
The assistant should have a backup attorney to inquire about legal matters but simply do nothing and if WH gets a locksmith, if you are not home.........document and if WH tries to be in your presence to have it done
Do
Not
Love Bust
as you matter of factly tell them they will need to leave the premises or you will call the police.
Then, call police and tell them that you are in legal proceedings and he is attemping to access your home and that he does not live there.
The assistant should have a backup attorney to inquire about legal matters but simply do nothing and if WH gets a locksmith, if you are not home.........document and if WH tries to be in your presence to have it done
Do
Not
Love Bust
as you matter of factly tell them they will need to leave the premises or you will call the police.
Then, call police and tell them that you are in legal proceedings and he is attemping to access your home and that he does not live there.
I asked and she doesn't have a back-up and I'm pissed! I haven't received one response from her to my emails and the "assistant" hasn't heard from her either. She said its been hit or miss with her responses. Who does this sort of thing?
Well if you really like your lawyer, you could stay with her and then ask when she gets back why she hasn't got a back up, when you needed one. That's pretty shoddy. Her assistant might just be a bit rubbish though.
Otherwise you could switch lawyers. You want a firm with their act together, if you don't have faith in them.
In the meantime there's no reason to panic or do anything.
Just cause WH is in a panic about trying to get his feet back under the table - doesn't mean you have to care.
If he tries anything, you call the cops, just like you would have done any other week.
Its horrible when their lawyer realises their client is totally at fault and doesn't have a leg to stand on, so just decides to harrass you instead. Its happened to me. Its just hot air from the lawyer. They have a client who's angry that their world fell in when they hit it with a hammer - and toddler-like is demanding their lawyer do something about it.
The lawyer takes a deep breath and says "Well we can send her a letter. Make it look official. She's not obligated to listen though.... (Now will that get you off my case!)"
I'd rather be in charge of cleaning up vomit in an all night club than be the legal servant of a wayward.
Well if you really like your lawyer, you could stay with her and then ask when she gets back why she hasn't got a back up, when you needed one. That's pretty shoddy. Her assistant might just be a bit rubbish though.
Otherwise you could switch lawyers. You want a firm with their act together, if you don't have faith in them.
In the meantime there's no reason to panic or do anything.
Just cause WH is in a panic about trying to get his feet back under the table - doesn't mean you have to care.
If he tries anything, you call the cops, just like you would have done any other week.
Its horrible when their lawyer realises their client is totally at fault and doesn't have a leg to stand on, so just decides to harrass you instead. Its happened to me. Its just hot air from the lawyer. They have a client who's angry that their world fell in when they hit it with a hammer - and toddler-like is demanding their lawyer do something about it.
The lawyer takes a deep breath and says "Well we can send her a letter. Make it look official. She's not obligated to listen though.... (Now will that get you off my case!)"
I'd rather be in charge of cleaning up vomit in an all night club than be the legal servant of a wayward.
Agree with everything you said 200%!!! Thank you Indie!!! . Thank you for making me feel better! This is so stressful, but talking to my neighbor friend and trying to remain calm.
Star, your WH doesn't like that you have cut him off while in Plan B. If he doesn't want to be with you anymore, and he wants a divorce, why would he care about getting into your home? It's a move to get a reaction out of you. Remember, you need to be an enemy to them, so they have someone to fight against, and so there is drama. Affairs THRIVE on drama, and that is one of the reasons you are supposed to be in Plan B, to remove yourself from that drama.
Now, although the phone call from OW was a breach of Plan B, you could have done a lot worse. Next time though, use the Art of War strategy and try to get OW off balance. If she calls you again, instead of engaging her, say things like, "That's interesting, I didn't know that, Um-hm, Really?" and let her tell you all sorts of things. The enemy will actually tend to show their cards to you and hang themselves, you just gotta let them.
As far as the stuff with the key, let the lawyers deal with it. And as LR said, if your WH gets a locksmith, so can you. I'd actually get the card off of the one your WH uses, and use the same guy.
As far as the stuff with the key, let the lawyers deal with it. And as LR said, if your WH gets a locksmith, so can you. I'd actually get the card off of the one your WH uses, and use the same guy.
This was exactly my thought as well. Plus you can redo do your nails when the same locksmith returns. You biggest concern should be deciding on which color to choose.
I just don't have the energy to expose anymore to OW's H. He already knows what she is and if he doesn't or doesn't care, it's not really my problem. The one thing I can control is myself and not allowing anymore abuse in my own life.
Question: While in Plan B is it ok/proper to still expose? I have been told that WH is having another affair with a whore that we work with. Should I take this to HR or just ignore? It is causing me a lot of anxiety!
I'm just pissed off and I have a feeling that they could be communicating on company time too.
Also, he has started going to the same church as me and my mom. A couple of members told me that I need to speak with a pastor, because it's looked down upon in the church for a married man to attend church while carrying on affairs.
We are in the D process right now, but we are still married, so I'm just not sure what to do... Please help!
Question: While in Plan B is it ok/proper to still expose? I have been told that WH is having another affair with a whore that we work with. Should I take this to HR or just ignore? It is causing me a lot of anxiety!
I always say No,No,No! to this, because it will have a tremendous effect on your Plan B and on healing. This is EXACTLY what ALL waywards do in Plan B. It is also the EXACT reason people should be banned from passing on news of him to you.
Are you going to expose every skank he hooks up with?
He's not your problem in Plan B. If he becomes repentant, and you ever want to try recovery, he will have to give you all the info and you can expose her at that point.
Also, he has started going to the same church as me and my mom. A couple of members told me that I need to speak with a pastor, because it's looked down upon in the church for a married man to attend church while carrying on affairs.
Sounds like you go to a good church where they walk the walk as well as talk the talk. Good idea.
Originally Posted by starfish75
We are in the D process right now, but we are still married, so I'm just not sure what to do... Please help!
Exposure is a caring gesture geared towards freeing the wayward from their addiction.
You dont do anything caring for him in Plan B. You let him see what divorce will be like, before he actively chooses it. You let him see what it is like to hit rock bottom with a variety of skanks, and you not lifting a finger to stop it. You not caring.
Let him hit rock bottom.
Screwing around at work, when they already know what he's like sounds like an ideal way to hit rock bottom.
What about church Indie? Should I speak with a pastor?
Yes: tell him you cant be in the same room as your WH, as it is too distressing, so either he finds a new church or you do. Ask him to help you by opposing adultery.
Originally Posted by starfish75
He knows I can't stand this skank at work too... She's an ex-gf who also has a bf in the service. Two peas in a pod!
My assessment is that he's looking for ways to find out if you still care by deliberately behaving badly under your nose.
Also, I have a piece of jewelry that his mother gave me, which is a family heirloom. I would like to return back to his family, because it's the right thing to do. Should I mail it to them directly insured or inter-office to WH to return to them? I would feel terrible if something happened to it in the mail. In-laws live out of state.
You have all of time to get it back to them if it needs to be done.
Also......please keep your mine open and eyes and ears open for a new employer that would be a positive place for you. Though you have a lot invested in your current job, there is always something better out there somewhere (money, time, fulfilling).
Thanks for your advice Reading, but I didn't see your post in time and had a runner from work hand deliver the necklace with a sealed card that read:
FIL & MIL,
Thank you for sharing this beautiful heirloom with me that represents family, love and respect. �I'm returning it back to you in love and respect for your family.
You have been the most amazing in-laws and I wish you and your family nothing but the best.
I sent my FIL a text yesterday to wish him a Happy Fathers Day and received the following email from him today. Not quite sure how to respond...
Hi DIL - thank you for the Father's Day wishes.� I did get your text message yesterday morning, and should have responded right away.� I was super busy yesterday trying to get a million things done around here, so I just smiled at your text message and went on working.........not a very good excuse for not acknowledging your Father's Day wishes to me right away.� It was so rainy here last week that I'm way behind on mowing, trimming and a lot of other outside work, so since it stopped raining on Saturday I've been working like a crazy person to try and catch up on stuff.� It gets ahead of me very quickly!� Yesterday was the "perfect" Father's Day for me in that it was completely quiet here - no one to bother me with anything to keep me from working on all the stuff I wanted to get done.� MIL was out of town visiting family and got back late yesterday afternoon, so until she got back it was just me and the dogs, though I couldn't get the dogs to help me much.� But I got a lot of stuff done and felt real good about the day. � You mentioned in your text last evening something about asking for our address here - I don't recall seeing that message.� It's not terribly unusual for my phone to miss messages here as the cell signal is pretty weak, so I apologize for not responding to that request. � I certainly have no intention of cutting off communication with you DIL.� You have been a very important part of our lives for many years.� I'll always consider you as part of our family regardless of what happens and hope you will feel the same way.� I know MIL feels the same way as I do.� I've lived long enough to know that life takes many unexpected turns, but through all of that one of the most important things is to hold onto relationships that have been important to you. � Thanks again for the Father's Day wishes - I appreciate your thoughtfulness.� I hope being back to work is going well.� I'm sure that the people you work with there were missing you and are glad you're back. � Take care...............love, FIL
Of course you should. How has he done you any wrong? Pretty obvious to me he loves and cares for you very much so I would call him right now.
He's a wonderful man! I'm just at a loss regarding what to say... I'm getting stronger everyday, but have a lot of anger towards WH for the pain he has inflicted on everyone. I don't really feel he has been held accountable by his family and it's upsetting. I don't feel my exposure did much in regards to his family.
Just having a bit of a rough night I guess. My attorney told me that I need to provide WH with a key. He is supposed to give me notice before entering the home, but we will see if that happens.
I'm trying my best to focus on me and some days are easier than others. This is clearly going to take a very long time for me to recover from the pain.
star, he and your MIL are hurting very deeply as well, but they just don't know what to say or do either. Keep in mind, they are stuck between the proverbial rock and a hard place. Stay in touch with them and show them how much you love them as well. When these things happen it's not at all uncommon for the WS's family to turn their back's on the BS. Separate your emotions and talk to him like you would at any given time pre-DDay. It serves you no good to not keep communicating with them.
I called and left a message for them on their answering machine. I doubt they will ask me anything personal, but I'm afraid of what I should or shouldn't say if they do... I miss them both very much and love them.
It's so hard to be where I'm at right now, as I never planned or dreamed this could ever happen. I still have bad dreams and wake up with a lot of pain on those days. Not everyday, but there are still nights where my dreams haunt me.
WH is really destroying his reputation at work. People are hearing about him and what he's done and now the other co-worker. They come up to me and ask me how I'm doing and I say that I'm doing good and hanging in there. Then, I get head shakes from people and they say they can't stand to look at him anymore and that he and OW#? disgust them!
As for me, I have been getting up early to make sure that I look amazing and well groomed everyday, make-up, hair, dresses, heels, jewelry, nails, etc. I walk with my head high and smile as much as I can! I've been receiving lots of compliments from both men and women, so it's definitely helping to get my self-esteem back (a little). I have been taking Pilates and going to start a boot camp class with my friend (female), of course. I am in great shape again after losing affair weight, so this makes me happy! I have a nice tan now too... Yeah me!
Ok, I haven't felt very good about myself in a while, but the past couple of weeks, I'm starting to feel better about me! I know WH may never come back from his fog or lying and cheating ways and honestly if he did, I'm not sure I would even want him anymore! I think about all of the chances I gave him and never received any sort of definite answer from him. Maybe he was always this person and I was so blinded by love that I couldn't see who he really was.
I'll be 37 in September and would still love to have a family someday, but I'm scared. I know the "right" person is out there for me and I'm trying my best to live and learn each and everyday. I'm trying to accept my feelings, whether they are sadness, anger, resentment, etc., accept them, but try not to dwell on them for too long. I want to get back to ME, back to Starfish! I want to get myself in a wonderful place, so that oneday I'll be good and healthy enough to take on the "right one" whenever he comes along. I know things I will do differently in the future and know the things that I will and will not accept in a relationship. This experience, as painful as it is and has been has changed me and I hope I can look back one day and see why this happened and be in a much better place because of it. Gosh, I can't believe I just said all of this... lol! Well, it's what I'm feeling at the moment. Tomorrow could be another story...
Star, have you ever read the thread by Atena? She continued to work with her WH. It didn't do her any good at all. You could see the pain and anguish that she dealt with on a daily basis. OW also lived in her building, if I remember correctly. It was just awful to see her suffer when she didn't need to.
Star, have you ever read the thread by Atena? She continued to work with her WH. It didn't do her any good at all. You could see the pain and anguish that she dealt with on a daily basis. OW also lived in her building, if I remember correctly. It was just awful to see her suffer when she didn't need to.
Star, have you ever read the thread by Atena? She continued to work with her WH. It didn't do her any good at all. You could see the pain and anguish that she dealt with on a daily basis. OW also lived in her building, if I remember correctly. It was just awful to see her suffer when she didn't need to.
I don't really feel he has been held accountable by his family and it's upsetting. I don't feel my exposure did much in regards to his family.
Realtionships with in-laws in Plan B can be tricky. I still have a relationship with MiL, because she knows not to mention him and she supported me to the hilt, telling him he was a fool and doing wrong. I would have preferred a stronger, 'You're nothing to do with me until you make it right' but her stance was basically enough for me. No relationship with the (probably wayward too) FiL though because I know he went around telling people I was 'mistaken' about the A to save face.
If you have resentment and don't feel they backed you up enough - you arent going to be close and contact with them will probably annoy or hurt you.
You have three choices: 1) maintain a polite relationship, where you just keep things surface level, 2) tell them you wish they'd held him more to account or 3) just let the relationship drop.
It all boils down to whats best for you and your Plan B. I wouldnt worry about what you 'should' do. As long as you're civil and all your relationships are supportive ones.
HELP! I just received a message from a detective (with case #) in OW #2's city. I'm assuming this is about fb exposure. What am I supposed to do?
I returned his call, but he is in court. He is supposed to call me back.. Anybody else ever have this happen? How am I supposed to handle this?
Why would you assume that? Exposure has nothing to do with police detectives! Unless adultery has become criminilised overnight.
Are you sure its a REAL detective? Text asking for his name and department, then call the police station using the listed number and ask for the name he gave you. They should be able to verify he is who he says he is.
Its not impossible for OW to have got someone to try to scare you.
If its a real detective, then she might have committed a crime, and as someone she betrayed, youd be willing to them facts about her.
I was once called by detectives to talk about an article I'd written. I instantly assumed I must have done something wrong. Turns out I had simply interviewed people who had gone on to commit a crime and they wanted to know what they had told me. Relax. You haven�t done anything wrong.
Relax. Take a long walk or just refocus on other things.
Whatever the person wants to contact you about......don't let it rattle you. You are living by plans which create calmness and strength and bravery and not reacting to others right now.
I have personally wondered if exposure could constitute 'defamation of character' and just thought I would look it up. It is defamation if it is UNTRUE statements, and since exposure is just stating the facts it does not qualify. Also, the courts seldom touch defamation of character for a private citizen (whereas they take it more seriously if you are dealing with people in the public eye). And finally, they don't put a DETECTIVE on the job (or at least as a tax paying citizen I should hope not), in fact its generally handled as a civil manner. Other than this, I can't imagine what you could possibly be investigated for.
Unless OW's body turned up somewhere, then they might want to talk to you. Just putting it out there.
unwritten is right, it is not defamation if it is true. It is not illegal to tell the truth in America. And if that skank wants to take you to court to prove it, that would be great!! Your attorney could then subpoena all her email and cell phone records!
Actually, we have seen hundreds of threats to sue over exposure, but not one has ever come to fruition. The reason why? They would lose the case and humiliate themselves in a public court!
HELP! I just received a message from a detective (with case #) in OW #2's city. I'm assuming this is about fb exposure. What am I supposed to do?
I returned his call, but he is in court. He is supposed to call me back.. Anybody else ever have this happen? How am I supposed to handle this?
Why would you assume that? Exposure has nothing to do with police detectives! Unless adultery has become criminilised overnight.
Are you sure its a REAL detective? Text asking for his name and department, then call the police station using the listed number and ask for the name he gave you. They should be able to verify he is who he says he is.
Its not impossible for OW to have got someone to try to scare you.
If its a real detective, then she might have committed a crime, and as someone she betrayed, youd be willing to them facts about her.
I was once called by detectives to talk about an article I'd written. I instantly assumed I must have done something wrong. Turns out I had simply interviewed people who had gone on to commit a crime and they wanted to know what they had told me. Relax. You haven�t done anything wrong.
We have had a couple of instances where an OP will call the police about exposure and a police would call the BS and tell her to stop it. But they have no legal grounds to make such a demand. If he does, I would ask him what law you have broken? The last I checked, it is not illegal in America to tell the truth.
She is trying to get me in trouble for harrassment. The detective is going to call my husband and the detective said that he is going to try to deescalate the situation before it gets to be a huge problem with subpoenas, etc. He said that he can pull all phone records, facebook accounts, etc.
He said he will contact the "victim" OW#2 and then he will be in contact with me to let me know the outcome. I have contacted my attorney, but I had to leave a message as she wasn't in the office.
"harassment" requires ONGOING contact with the purpose to threaten. Its NOT a one-time event. The truth is on your side. Be PROUD of what you did! Don't hide from it!
Star. When the PD gets a complaint, they have to investigate. This guy is just going through the motions to cover his butt and be able to close the case.
"harassment" requires ONGOING contact with the purpose to threaten. Its NOT a one-time event. The truth is on your side. Be PROUD of what you did! Don't hide from it!
I told the detective that I am the real victim here, just trying to move on with my life. I don't have any desire to contact her or my husband. I exposed her on facebook and that it wasn't defamation, because everything I stated was true and I was only trying to put an end to the affair and protect my marriage, which is now in the process of divorce.
I don't feel I harrassed her at all. I did email her to ask for her version of what happened, but that was a while back and how is that harrassment anyway? She never responded.
I hope so....I just don't need anymore stress in my life! She's the one that harrassed, messed around with a married man and contacted him to come up to Boston for a visit. She is the one that is causing trouble...not me! This is ridiculous!!!
Makes me detest WH that much more....I cannot stand him for what he has done! He had made my life a living HELL! I'm not one to wish bad things on people, but I hope Karma takes care of the both of them! I just want to move on with my life....no drama! I still have his handwritten letter detailing every disgusting detail of the one night stand. I'm sure there are some missing parts, but I have it in his own writing and he named her. I have proof that she and my husband had an affair and that's ok....Now she's the victim? I don't think so....I AM THE VICTIM HERE AND NOBODY ELSE! Calling her a victim is just hysterical to me....
Why not offer to fax this hand written confession to the detective? She won't at all be able to blame you in any way as it's in your WH's handwriting. The detective may even get a little chuckle out of informing the OW what he has in his possession.
Granted....the affair happened in Colorado, but she is from MA. He's been to Boston for business, so it could've happened there too...I have no idea. I really think it might've been just in Colorado though. I think they met there for the first time.
I have not harrassed her in anyway, so this is just ridiculous! My blood is boiling right now.
The case is being dropped. He has copies of emails that she sent to him (fb) Dear family and friends of OW#2, which he states is incriminating evidence, but he has a huge case file and is dropping the case. He contacted the "victim" aka OW#2 and said that I agreed to never contact her again.
WH sent me an email at work and asked me, "What did you do?"
SERIOUSLY???
This is ridiculous! I wouldn't wish this additional stress on any BW/BH. I would definitely be cautious in the future with these exposure letters. I had to take (3) xanax today to deal with all of the stress of this. The last thing I need is to be in trouble with the law for two despicable dirtbags that decided to destroy the life of an innocent woman who was faithful, trusted and loved her husband with everything she had!
I cannot wait to get this divorce over with! I just want to be rid of him! The job is really stressing me out too and now I've had to supply him with a key to our home. He is supposed to be giving me a 12-24 hr. notice before entering the home. I'm not going to be able to keep anything personal at the house, notes, papers from lawyer, etc. I just want to get out of that house as soon as I can. I want to get on with my life. This is the most painful thing I've ever experienced in my life.
Karma will take care of WH and all of his whores....I'm done!
First off, no detective can do ANYTHING about any FB exposure. Seriously. It is possible that OW is friends with this detective, I have seen that happen before. OW is purposely trying to rattle you. Don't let her!
Next, WH should not be able to email you, that's a hole that needs to be plugged.
My STBX has been making my life miserable in this divorce but he is blocked and I try to compartmentalize that part of my life as much as I can. Vent and then try to let it go and only worry about what is deemed a real problem.
If you don't plug up that hole and leave that job, I am sorry to tell you that this detective calling you is nothing compared to the hell that your STBX will most likely make your life if he can get thru to you....
The case is being dropped. He has copies of emails that she sent to him (fb) Dear family and friends of OW#2, which he states is incriminating evidence, but he has a huge case file and is dropping the case. He contacted the "victim" aka OW#2 and said that I agreed to never contact her again.
This is BS! I can almost guarantee you that this "detective" is a friend to OW2 and called you up as a scare tactic. Incriminating evidence? Yeah, against her for the crime of adultery. You did nothing wrong. Period. Your letter was no crime and that detective knows it. He told you that BS to scare you and to appease his friend. I wonder what would happen if you asked to go up the chain of command about this. I'm betting he would change his tune drastically. This is outrageous.
The case is being dropped. He has copies of emails that she sent to him (fb) Dear family and friends of OW#2, which he states is incriminating evidence, but he has a huge case file and is dropping the case. He contacted the "victim" aka OW#2 and said that I agreed to never contact her again.
This is BS! I can almost guarantee you that this "detective" is a friend to OW2 and called you up as a scare tactic. Incriminating evidence? Yeah, against her for the crime of adultery. You did nothing wrong. Period. Your letter was no crime and that detective knows it. He told you that BS to scare you and to appease his friend. I wonder what would happen if you asked to go up the chain of command about this. I'm betting he would change his tune drastically. This is outrageous.
I contacted my attorney and she said the same thing...that it was probably a friend. She told me not to answer any more questions from the detective and to let him know that he could contact my attorney. She isn't very happy! I doubt he will call me again. I wish all of these psychos would leave me the hell alone!
The pastor from the church called me back and is going to call me tomorrow about setting up a meeting. He asked me a lot of questions about WH and if he was attending church with another woman. I told him no, but he is still committing adultery AND attending church. I should hear back from him tomorrow.
I wish I had never met him. He is the reason that all of these psycho bitche$ are in my life. Why can't they just leave me alone? Did they all not inflict enough pain into my life already? Do they really need to twist the sword deeper into my heart? What is wrong with people? What did I do to deserve all of this?????
Can you talk to your HR about getting your WH blocked from your email addy? Let them know that you wish to remain professional in the workplace, and by blocking your WH, you can maintain that professionalism. I still think you should get a different job.
I'm not able to block his email for many different reasons, but the main reason is that he accidentally gets some of my emails because our last name is the same and the first letter of his name comes before mine in the alphabet. It doesn't happen very often, but still happens and if I don't receive these emails from other co-workers and respond, there could be a huge problem with one of my customers!
This was the first time he has emailed me since I've been back.
I'm starting to agree with you about the job situation. I'm trying my best to tough it out, but it's difficult on certain days. My co-workers think I'm doing amazing and nobody wants me to leave.
I wish I had never met him. He is the reason that all of these psycho bitche$ are in my life. Why can't they just leave me alone? Did they all not inflict enough pain into my life already? Do they really need to twist the sword deeper into my heart? What is wrong with people? What did I do to deserve all of this?????
Agree with Scotty.
WHen I read the above post, the thought I had was: Those feelings have more to do with not being in Plan B than they have to do with WH...
You can't change the past, but you can control the present and the future....
Star its your decision but the job situation gets worse over time. More time = more cuts for you to bleed slowly from. I would start getting very creative with job ideas.
If he can't be blocked on email, can you ask the powers that be to ask him not to use work time to harrass you?
Lots of tears tonight... Maybe I'm finally starting to grieve? My IC said that it could take me awhile to get to the grieving process...
I'm very thankful tonight for all of the love and support that I have received from family, friends, neighbors, co-workers and here at MB! I couldn't have survived without everyone! I would also like to say that my heart goes out to all of you that have experienced this pain. I wish that nobody had to go through this awful mess and rollercoaster of emotions. It's an awful pain that I do understand! I wish us all peace and happiness... It's so hard to see through the clouds somedays and then others are great... for awhile until our mind starts to wander or dream. I pray that we all are able to overcome this and become better people because of our experience. It's been so good to have all of you to comfort and guide me. I can overcome this... it's going to take some time, but I have faith!
Today was a rough day, but tomorrow is another day and it's also Thursday, which means two more days until the weekend! Thinking of something fun to do...
I posted the following on my fb tonight and wanted to share with all of you:
�No matter how close we are to another person, few human relationships are as free from strife, disagreement, and frustration as is the relationship you have with a good dog. Few human beings give of themselves to another as a dog gives of itself. I also suspect that we cherish dogs because their unblemished souls make us wish - consciously or unconsciously - that we were as innocent as they are, and make us yearn for a place where innocence is universal and where the meanness, the betrayals, and the cruelties of this world are unknown.�
Heading off to bed to cuddle with my lovable dogs... They are the best companions!
I'm very sorry that you've had to endure such suffering. My heart goes out to you. Its been evident from the beginning of this thread that you are a good wife and a caring, thoughtful person. Unfortunately, you married someone unworthy of your qualities. He will regret losing you. But his actions throughout this crisis have been wayward. He is incurable it would seem. Nothing he has done has shown that he is a capable of being a loving spouse and safe to be in a relationship with.
You will come out of this with your integrity and having learned something valuable. That doesn't mitigate the pain or ease your suffering, but know that this too shall pass.
I'm very sorry that you've had to endure such suffering. My heart goes out to you. Its been evident from the beginning of this thread that you are a good wife and a caring, thoughtful person. Unfortunately, you married someone unworthy of your qualities. He will regret losing you. But his actions throughout this crisis have been wayward. He is incurable it would seem. Nothing he has done has shown that he is a capable of being a loving spouse and safe to be in a relationship with.
You will come out of this with your integrity and having learned something valuable. That doesn't mitigate the pain or ease your suffering, but know that this too shall pass.
Peace!
Thank you for your kind words...I really appreciate it!
MIL called me tonight and said they need their space, but will come back around. lol.... So, communication has ended with the in-laws.
On a positive note, your MIL made the hard decision for you. And who knows, when they want to come around, you may not care. Water rolling off of your back.
I haven't had to do any of the D paperwork, and I am CERTAIN, that even 2+ years in PB, I would cry at it. You're only human after all.
MIL called me tonight and said they need their space, but will come back around. lol.... So, communication has ended with the in-laws.
On a positive note, your MIL made the hard decision for you. And who knows, when they want to come around, you may not care. Water rolling off of your back.
I haven't had to do any of the D paperwork, and I am CERTAIN, that even 2+ years in PB, I would cry at it. You're only human after all.
I agree with you... I told her that I understood that WH was their son and blood and they need to be there for him. She disagreed with me, but I know the truth. I'm sure my WH told them that I'm a Psycho Harassing B to the OW and poor him that he had to talk to a detective, blah, blah, blah. I exposed and asked for the truth, but I'm the crazy person here! He brought all of this upon himself and I take no responsibility for his actions! He's going to be pissed once the pastor contacts him, but not my problem!
The whole situation sucks... I'm going to grow and be a better person, but I just wish the tears would stop coming in waves... I wish I could just cry and get all of the pain out at once... It comes in waves and I'll have to accept that for now....
The D paperwork sucks!!! I'm procrastinating it, not because of the D, but because it just sucks to see everything you've worked for all your lives on paper and divided. It's a lot of work, copies, etc. I think I need more time to complete everything. I just need to make myself do it!
MIL called me tonight and said they need their space, but will come back around. lol.... So, communication has ended with the in-laws.
On a positive note, your MIL made the hard decision for you. And who knows, when they want to come around, you may not care. Water rolling off of your back.
I haven't had to do any of the D paperwork, and I am CERTAIN, that even 2+ years in PB, I would cry at it. You're only human after all.
I agree with you... I told her that I understood that WH was their son and blood and they need to be there for him. She disagreed with me, but I know the truth. I'm sure my WH told them that I'm a Psycho Harassing B to the OW and poor him that he had to talk to a detective, blah, blah, blah. I exposed and asked for the truth, but I'm the crazy person here! He brought all of this upon himself and I take no responsibility for his actions! He's going to be pissed once the pastor contacts him, but not my problem!
The whole situation sucks... I'm going to grow and be a better person, but I just wish the tears would stop coming in waves... I wish I could just cry and get all of the pain out at once... It comes in waves and I'll have to accept that for now....
star, you knew this would come sooner or later. First off, serious
Please start listening to Scotty and indie and follow them to the letter. They've been calling all this from the start and haven't been proven wrong once. I'm not a Plan B'er by any means, but I've seen enough from those 2 beautiful ladies to know that when they speak, you should listen, and implement. They're right, you're KILLING yourself with all this info that makes no difference whatsoever in your personal recovery. I know that temptation that you have (BTDT) but it serves no purpose other than to destroy you just a little bit more. Separate yourself from this. You don't need it and you certainly don't deserve it. Protect yourself.
MIL called me tonight and said they need their space, but will come back around. lol.... So, communication has ended with the in-laws.
On a positive note, your MIL made the hard decision for you. And who knows, when they want to come around, you may not care. Water rolling off of your back.
I haven't had to do any of the D paperwork, and I am CERTAIN, that even 2+ years in PB, I would cry at it. You're only human after all.
I agree with you... I told her that I understood that WH was their son and blood and they need to be there for him. She disagreed with me, but I know the truth. I'm sure my WH told them that I'm a Psycho Harassing B to the OW and poor him that he had to talk to a detective, blah, blah, blah. I exposed and asked for the truth, but I'm the crazy person here! He brought all of this upon himself and I take no responsibility for his actions! He's going to be pissed once the pastor contacts him, but not my problem!
The whole situation sucks... I'm going to grow and be a better person, but I just wish the tears would stop coming in waves... I wish I could just cry and get all of the pain out at once... It comes in waves and I'll have to accept that for now....
star, you knew this would come sooner or later. First off, serious
Please start listening to Scotty and indie and following them to the letter. They've been calling all this from the start and haven't been proven wrong once. I'm not a Plan B'er by any means, but I've seen enough from those 2 beautiful ladies to know that when they speak, you should listen, and implement. They're right, your are KILLING yourself with all this info that makes no difference whatsoever in your personal recovery. I know that temptation that you have (BTDT) but it serves no purpose other than to destroy you just a little bit more. Separate yourself from this. You don't need it and you certainly don't deserve it. Protect yourself.
God Bless and more hugs to you.
Thank you and I agree with you! I'm doing my best, but it's some days to feel so empowered, ambitious and strong. There are still days that I want to curl up in a ball and die, but then there are other days that I tell myself I CAN GET THROUGH THIS! I have to remind myself of this every single day! My WH was too far gone for any plan to work in my opinion. I'm not sure if he will ever recover, but I remind myself that I will! Have I made mistakes...? Yes!!! Am I going to make more mistakes? Probably... I'm human. I'm doing the best I can every hour of every day and I'm so thankful to have support, advice and guidance. The D process is very difficult though...
I'm not able to block his email for many different reasons, but the main reason is that he accidentally gets some of my emails because our last name is the same and the first letter of his name comes before mine in the alphabet. It doesn't happen very often, but still happens and if I don't receive these emails from other co-workers and respond, there could be a huge problem with one of my customers!
This was the first time he has emailed me since I've been back.
I'm starting to agree with you about the job situation. I'm trying my best to tough it out, but it's difficult on certain days. My co-workers think I'm doing amazing and nobody wants me to leave.
You should be able to re-route his work email through your outlook directly to the SPAM box though. Try it out. Bet it works.
Ah! just found a beautiful thing. Estrela - you don't have to have I/T do a thing.
Just take every single email address he could possibly send you something from. Look at your outlook menu for "ACTIONS" - there's a drop down menu that has a "JUNK MAIL" selection - then selection "JUNK MAIL OPTIONS". that will pop up a menu that has four tabs - the fourth choice is "BLOCKED SENDERS" - take great pleasure in the control you will feel as you add all of those email possibilities to your list of SPAM.
Then on the first tab labeled "OPTIONS" check the box that says PERMANENTLY DELETE SUSPECTED JUNK MAIL INSTEAD OF MOVING IT TO THE JUNK FOLDER.
I agree with you Indie. I probably should've ended the contact myself, but I'll just let their whole family lie, cheat and abandon. I'm withholding my morals and values and staying true to me.
I agree with you Indie. I probably should've ended the contact myself, but I'll just let their whole family lie, cheat and abandon. I'm withholding my morals and values and staying true to me.
My best friend just sent me a copy of a letter to WH that she sent. She said it was something that she needed to do... Probably won't phase him, but she said she needed to get this stuff off of her chest.
WH,
I debated for a long time whether or not I should write this letter. I don't have any expectations of your reaction, truthfully, I hadn't considered it. �Ultimately it comes down to what needs to be said.
Have you ever meditated on how many years of BW's life you wasted? You have many things to repent for and feel bad for, but I believe this one has slipped through the cracks....
You see, all these years that you pretended to be married, all these years that you lead BW to believe that things were hunky dory...well, those were all years she could have been building the family she so desperately wants �with a man who truly loved her.
Shame on you. Shame of you for being an empty shell of a person who inflicted his will on someone else. Shame on you for playing with BW's heart so recklessly. Shame on you.
And now you want to add insult to injury by playing dirty with divorce. What is wrong with you? Have you never considered what you owe her? Let me spell it out for you. You faked your vows. You faked your marriage. You cheated. You introduced horrible people into your life that are now filing harassment charges?? Are you out of your mind?
How should she feel WH? How would YOU feel if you found out she turned to another man, had sex with him and then lied and lied and lied? What kind of pain and betrayal would you feel realizing you slept with her every night and never truly knew her? She will carry this with her for the rest of her life. The scars you have provided her with will never go away.
Let me ask you one question and please think long and hard before you answer it. What did she do to you?
Before your knee jerk answer, let me remind you that whatever you felt during your fertility battle and the circumstances around it, BW never turned to another man. Not emotionally and certainly not sexually. You cannot begin to compare your transgressions to hers.
So what does she deserve? How about an attempt at an amicable split? She does deserve half, dude. Get over it. At the end of the day, YOU walked down the aisle. No one put a gun to your head. So even if you disagree with everything I have said, you cannot argue that.
Put your weapons down, be a man and own up to all the [censored] you caused.
Nice that your friend has your back, Star. That support is very important at this time.
But you do know that the letter will be read through your wh's filter, right? He can only see things from the perspective of his wants and needs and no one else's. His actions throughout your ordeal have been atrocious. He continues along his wayward path without remorse or the slightest intention of changing. This letter will not create a change in him, though its good that he got a stern lecture from your friend. He deserves a lot more of that.
Continue on in plan B and be glad that his poison is leaving your system.
She is an amazing friend! I love her very much and am so blessed to have such a wonderful person in my life. She has been there for me throughout this whole mess and has always supported me, listened, given advice when needed and has always been my protector and always has my best interest at heart!
She told me that she doesn't expect him to respond, she did it more for me, but it was something she had to do!
I'm just so ready to move forward, but I still have a lot of d papers to complete regarding assets, etc. it's HARD WORK! I've been procrastinating...
WH responded to her and said, "You probably should not have written me."
She let me know, because she said it sounds like a thinly veiled threat and then she said I honestly don't see how what I wrote could hurt you but I'm sorry if I caused more problems.
WH responded to her and said, "You probably should not have written me."
She let me know, because she said it sounds like a thinly veiled threat and then she said I honestly don't see how what I wrote could hurt you but I'm sorry if I caused more problems.
That's the unfortunate of trying to educate a wayward.
WH responded to her and said, "You probably should not have written me."
She let me know, because she said it sounds like a thinly veiled threat and then she said I honestly don't see how what I wrote could hurt you but I'm sorry if I caused more problems.
That's the unfortunate of trying to educate a wayward.
Yes, that's what I was thinking too. I think she's feeling bad, because she thinks it sounds like a threat.
lol... Oh, I see now he responded to her first sentence of the letter, which said, "I debated for a long time whether or not I should write this letter."
His response, "You probably should not have written me. "
This is the only part of the letter that he didn't have to fog out... lol!
lol... Oh, I see now he responded to her first sentence of the letter, which said, "I debated for a long time whether or not I should write this letter."
His response, "You probably should not have written me. "
This is the only part of the letter that he didn't have to fog out... lol!
I was thinking the same thing when I was reading it.
"This a fantastic letter but he probably won't get past the first line".
lol... Oh, I see now he responded to her first sentence of the letter, which said, "I debated for a long time whether or not I should write this letter."
His response, "You probably should not have written me. "
This is the only part of the letter that he didn't have to fog out... lol!
I was thinking the same thing when I was reading it.
"This a fantastic letter but he probably won't get past the first line".
Tell her not to worry.
Yep, everything else was blah, blah, blah, not me, blah, blah, blah!
I'll definitely let her know not to worry. She is a wonderful friend! It's a shame she had to experience the behavior of a wayward. This was just a grain of salt compared to all the crap I've heard and read from him in the past.
Ok, heading to bed now... It's late. Good night and thank you for your response.
Star you are lucky to have such a good friend who was willing to stand against A and wayward behaviour. I read another thread where someone stated how dispicable (sp? I'm tired) does the behaviour need to become before someone says no I am not supporting this... they unfortuately did not have your support.
I agree with BH, WH reacted to the first line, couldn't see beyond this.
I am in Plan B & Plan D. WH now has a key to the house. I had to give it to him earlier this week per my attorney. He is supposed to give a 12-24 notice before coming over so I can leave. I don't see why he would need to come over though. I'm sure it's just a control thing on his part.
Lots of rain here today from Tropical Storm/Hurricane Debby. Laundry, movies and D paperwork. Gloomy day, but making the most of it!
If he was to come over unannounced he couldn't complain about the locks - as he hadn't given notice.
But if he comes over and clears the place out (its happened) there's nothing you could do.
What if he were to refuse to leave? Change the locks on you?
Why does he need a key if he has to give notice! That's absurd.
I agree, but my attorney told me to do so. I have videos, pictures and a list of all of our assets. He cannot remove or change anything in the house (neither can I). It's just a control thing. I don't like it, but without a decision from the judge, I have no choice and he can change the locks on me too. It shows be as being compliant.
There are Kwikset locks which are called Smart Key locks. They are made so that you can, within moments, reset the lock to a certain key.
If your lock is, by chance, a Kwikset.......maybe get a new Smart Key knob. That way.....you can have it set for a key WH does not have but if he ever requests to enter with a notice.....set it to the key he does have for that time frame and then set it back after he has entered to do whatever.
Also, never leave your important papers where he can access them.
Ideally, even if he enters, someone besides you will be there to keep an eye of him so he isn't grabbing things to take with him.
There are Kwikset locks which are called Smart Key locks. They are made so that you can, within moments, reset the lock to a certain key.
If your lock is, by chance, a Kwikset.......maybe get a new Smart Key knob. That way.....you can have it set for a key WH does not have but if he ever requests to enter with a notice.....set it to the key he does have for that time frame and then set it back after he has entered to do whatever.
Also, never leave your important papers where he can access them.
Ideally, even if he enters, someone besides you will be there to keep an eye of him so he isn't grabbing things to take with him.
I am not changing the locks again as it was very expensive. I did buy the Kwikset one that you are talking about for the front door, but I also have 3 other doors that had to be changed. I have to follow the advice of my attorney now, because I don't want any problems until a judgement has been made. I do not wish to be around him, but I'll definitely contact my neighbor or someone to come over to watch him to make sure that he doesn't take anything. I just hope that he gives a notice as he agreed. It really sucks that I feel like I have privacy only to a certain extent. Once again, the wayward has control (with a key). I just want this to be over with soon!
I took all of my papers and laptop out of the house and only bring them back when I'm working on them and then out of the house they go again. I'm not taking any chances! Can't trust a wayward!
Tropical Storm/Hurrican Debby came through yesterday. Had some flooding and the carpet in the corner of the bedroom is soaked, so I'll have to take care of that after work and limbs to pick up, etc. It wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be, but the wind and rain were crazy all day/night! More rain coming the next couple of days.
Sorry to hear aobut your flooding! Laast thing you need...
Originally Posted by starfish75
I am not changing the locks again as it was very expensive. I did buy the Kwikset one that you are talking about for the front door, but I also have 3 other doors that had to be changed.
How about deadbolts on the other three doors, and just set the Kwikset to another key when he does not give notice, but set it to his key, when he does. That should give you peace of mind without much expense.
Like the idea about the neighbour and protecting your paperwork. I'd hide any laptops too.
Every door in the house has a deadbolt, which I already changed right before I gave him the Plan B letter. I was advised to give him a key by both attorneys (his and mine). I'm not going against what they are saying right now, as we are in divorce proceedings and I'm not going to be the one that has anything on me. I am going to be able to walk away knowing that I did everything right and I'm going to take the high road. If he threatens, harrasses me or comes unannounced, etc., then I will notify my attorney. I have to do what my attorney says right now and he has agreed to 12-24 hrs. notice. He was given a key last week, but hasn't come over yet (to my knowledge).
Star, you AREN'T in plan B at all. You still work with your WH. I agree that you are in Plan D.
I've been in every single plan there is...
Yes, maybe for the job aspect, I'm not in a completely dark Plan B. I'm unable to switch jobs right now. I do not have contact with him at work and have only passed by him once and never looked his way or said one word. He now has a key to my house, which he hasn't used. So, if you want to say because of my job, that I'm not in Plan B, then I'm ok with that. I'm doing the best I can to work two plans at the same time. It's definitely not easy. Advice differs from my attorney on certain aspects, so I've had to make adjustments to obey the laws until a judgement has been made. I'm playing catch-up right now after being out of work for two months on STD. I need a steady income right now for many reasons and my attorney is not cheap. He has already taken too much from me and I'm doing my best, made necessary precautions that he doesn't force me to leave my job too. I have so much support at my job... he's not going to mess with me there.
This Tropical Storm is crazy! Cannot believe all the wind and rain! So tired this morning... wishing I could curl up and go back to sleep for a few hours...
Working on more of my d paperwork! This just sucks having all of your assets down on paper in front of you. It makes everything real and it just sucks! Having a rough night tonight! This paperwork is ridiculous! Purchase price, % and type of interest, date purchased, value day of separation/filing for d and fair market value today. That is just for the tangible assets!!! Ugh!
Working on more of my d paperwork! This just sucks having all of your assets down on paper in front of you. It makes everything real and it just sucks! Having a rough night tonight! This paperwork is ridiculous! Purchase price, % and type of interest, date purchased, value day of separation/filing for d and fair market value today. That is just for the tangible assets!!! Ugh!
Why oh why..... Having a rough night!
When's your next plan B treat scheduled? What do you have planned?
Working on more of my d paperwork! This just sucks having all of your assets down on paper in front of you. It makes everything real and it just sucks! Having a rough night tonight! This paperwork is ridiculous! Purchase price, % and type of interest, date purchased, value day of separation/filing for d and fair market value today. That is just for the tangible assets!!! Ugh!
Why oh why..... Having a rough night!
When's your next plan B treat scheduled? What do you have planned?
Car payments, credit cards, that sort of thing, is what I believe TTFG means? Marital debt?
Don't really have any debts... cars paid off, credit card paid off, etc. The only debt is our mortgage. May or may not be able to sell what we owe on the house due to the real estate market. I didn't handle the finances, so figuring out what we paid for things and the fair market value on our assets is difficult.
I'm sorry that you're going through the same thing... I know it really sucks! This is not the life I dreamed of... nobody gets married to get a divorce. This is just so painful... I'm sorry for everyone that experiences betrayal, infidelity, lies, unremorseful spouses, etc., etc., etc. We all have faults, we all have things to work on within a marriage, but when the person that you love the most steps outside the marriage, it's just so painful! I can't even put it into words... I'm so sorry that we are all here for the same reason, but so glad that we are all here to support each other through this extremely difficult time. Everyday is a new day (rollercoaster of emotions), but we can get through this!
Anxiety is overwhelming this morning. Took a Xanax and a very long hot shower, but still feeling that ball of nerves in my stomach. UGH.... hoping this goes away soon!
I'm calling my attorney this morning to see if I can get an extension on the paperwork that I need to complete. I need more time, because I didn't handle the finances, so I have to dig a little more than WH. I think I have most of the receipts, but I'm also going to have to figure out fair market value on everything. I guess look at Craig's list or maybe use a percentage of the sale price. I know I will have a major sense of relief once this paperwork is complete. Still a long road ahead... Everything still feels like a bad dream....
Mediation has been set for Sept. 18th. My attorney didn't send him the same forms that I have to fill out, which really ticks me off. Why do I have to do all of the work with EVERYTHING? She said they would send him the same forms to complete. They are a pain in the a$$, so he should have to fill them out too and do some work for once! I think this will be good that we are both completing the forms in case one of us forgets something, hopefully everything will be covered. He is going to $hit when he has to fill all of this DETAILED info. out on everything we own, tangile and non-tangible.
Reading through some of my old posts tonight... I would really like to read everything again from the beginning. I know my Plan B has some cracks that I need to plug, so I'm going to go back through and read everything again for some tips/advice. I realize my job is a major hole, but it's hard to plug that one up right now. God help me! I know you all care and are trying to help me see what I need to do, but its so difficult at times. I feel like such a failure some days... like I didn't do everything "perfect", so my marriage couldn't be saved! I realize this isn't factual, because there are no guarantees on anything... I did give my ALL to Plan A... Plan B... Well, it's been rough. I could even say my Plan B was on the verge, if not in Plan C most of the time. I really wish I could've implemented Plan B as well as I did Plan A . Now, I'm in Plan B (mediocre) and Plan D. I am trying everyday, still have good and bad moments throughout everyday.
I appreciate all of the support here... . There have been so many days looking back where I didn't have anywhere else to turn but here. I thank you all for helping me through all of those awful days and guiding me through them. I was so weak, so unclear of what I should or shouldn't do. Many of you helped me with words, letters, phone calls, etc. that I couldn't do for myself because I was so out of it. I am truly thankful for every single response that I received here, as you all have been lifesavers to me on so many days, even multiple times in one day.
The neighbor called me to let me know that WH was at the house today during lunch. I didn't notice anything missing at first, but then realized that there was a small silver electronic box that was missing that was on top of the Home PC. I don't think it was a router, because we already have one. What else could it have been?
I think it might have been a portable hard drive. Why would he need this?
Oops, I didn't see that last line and was making a suggestion.
You can't know why WH wanted it and coming up with ideas will make you crazy. I really think you need to ensure he can't just come and go. I thought he needed to give notice to enter? What is he comes and clears the house out?
Oops, I didn't see that last line and was making a suggestion.
You can't know why WH wanted it and coming up with ideas will make you crazy. I really think you need to ensure he can't just come and go. I thought he needed to give notice to enter? What is he comes and clears the house out?
I agree, but I was told that since a judgement hasn't been made regarding possession of the home, he has just as much right to the home as I do. He takes a different lunch than I do, so he can come here when I'm not home. I'm going to contact my attorney and let her know.
He did sign a form that I gave him to give me notice and he agreed to give me at least 12 hours. He mentioned to the neighbor that he was going to start coming over twice a week at lunch to see the dogs. He hasn't asked or cared about them in weeks, so why now? Obviously, he wanted the hard drive and used seeing the dogs as an excuse. Now, I'm wondering what else I need to hide.
I would change the locks again and refuse to give him the key. Tell his lawyer to take you to court. He can explain to the judge why he is breaking the agreement regarding giving you notice and coming in without permission.
You will have no idea what he is rifling through (your computer, possibly legal paperwork) and he could be possibly take things (this actually happened to my friend and her lawyer told her she should have changed the locks!).
Get the spare bed room ready, because I'm moving back in, so I can be with my dogs permanently. I already have a letter from my attorney to have access when I want. Its my house too, i pay the mortgage. I've been polite. I'm coming home ready or not BW. C u soon.
WH responded to my friend's email. She didn't say anything about it for a couple of days, but sent it to me tonight:
I wasn�t planning on responding to your e-mail. �I don�t need to justify myself to you. �First off I�m not sure why you are judging me. �You don�t know me well enough to judge me. �You don�t even know BW and I�s relationship well enough to judge. �You have spent a total or 4 or 5 hours with the two of us together. �I don�t know you well enough to judge you, or your husband, so I�d never judge either one of you. �You both seem like nice people, but again I don�t know either of you enough to ever judge either one of you.
Do you think I�m having fun right now. �This whole [censored] thing sucks. Do you think I wanted to be getting a divorce 5 years into my marriage. �Do you think I want to be staying with a friend and sleeping on a futon. �Do you think I want to be away from our house. �Do you think I want to be away from our dogs, which I love and adore, they are my kids. �BS and �I were supposed to be together for the rest of our lives. �What happened to us I wish I knew. �Was it her, was it me, or was it both of us. �I don�t know, sometimes we change. �Would I change how this all went down if I could do it again, of course I would. �It�s hard to tell someone you really care about that you might not be in love with them anymore. �Try thinking about that for just a second. �You don�t want to believe it, you think that felling is temporary and it will go way, but then it doesn�t or it does, but keeps coming back. �If I could turn back time and try to go through counseling sooner, I�d jump at the chance in a heart beat. �Maybe things would be different right now.
I don�t think of my time with BW was wasted time. �Many of our 9 years together were great years. �We were in love and having a good time together, enjoying each other. �So they were not wasted.
I pulled a quote from your original e-mail to me. ��But I felt it might be helpful if I told you the same thing I told BW.....be careful of who you listen to in this daunting and painful process. No one else is in your marriage. Those who are quick to jump to a conclusion or tell you what to do will not feel your heartache in the aftermath. � �I don�t feel BW took your advice, and I wish she had. �I�m not sure where BW got some of her idea�s from during this time, but some of them were not good ones, and my reactions to those idea�s probably made things worse.
Remember there are two sides to every story, and you are only receiving half the story. �The truth is to this day, to this hour, to this minute, I have not had sex with anyone besides BW since the day we started dating. �I know BW does not believe that, and I�m sure she has told you, and may other people different, but that is the truth. �I swear on my Grandmothers grave. �Have I made mistakes, yes. �I pulled a quote from your original e-mail to me. �And one more thing....you are not a bad person. That old saying "everyone makes mistakes" is an old saying for a reason. You're a good man, WS.� �You said this yourself!
I�m not perfect, and I will never be perfect just like every other person walking this earth. �I�m still seeing my counselor, and I have been going to church again now for about 6 to 7 weeks. �I�m not saying I found God or anything like that, but there are some good messages to be taken from church each week. �I hope in the long run I just become a little bit better of a person. �I�m sorry you feel the way you do towards me, but that is your opinion and you have the right to it.
I wish the best to you and your family, and happy long lives together.
starfish, change the locks! *you* have received no letter; it's probably crap. you need safety and security. he can (might) take you to court, where you can air all his dirty laundry, including that he just wants access to take stuff. are you strong enough to do this? c'mon girl, don't let him move back in! plus, you have the email! where on earth does he say he loves you? where does he say he wants to repair the marriage? nowhere. and he's told *you* he only wants to be there for the dogs??? i'd like to see how that flies in court. wayward babble and bs. hang in there, star.
You have some pretty GIANT holes in your Plan B, what are you going to do to fix them? Not fixing them is leaving you in Plan C.
If your WH decides he is going to move in, are you able to move out? Sometimes, the BS needs to move out to enter into a true Plan B. Fight to stay in the house, but have an option ready.
I'm not going to comment on his message to you, or your friend, because had you been in a true Plan B, you wouldn't have known about either one.
If you have a kwikset Smart key, just have it changed to another key.
If you have one.....he could have given you notice as he legally wrangled and had it keyed to his key in 30 seconds and then when he had come and gone with notice, you set it back.
People.......check out the Kwikset Smartkey.......(google it). Once a knob is installed, any adult/child can use the special little metal key setter to change keys back and forth in moments.
Anyway.
You must tell your lawyer that you do not feel safe. That WH did not give you notice and this is NOT acceptable. That no human being could live with this very frightening invasion of privacy and security.
Change the keying.
Enough.
And for crying out loud (I almost am....), if he must get in....he MUST GIVE NOTICE.
He's out of town until Wednesday, so I'm going to call my lawyer on Monday to see what can be done to help me. Our mediation isn't until Mid-September, so until there is a decision on division of assets, I would have nothing if I moved out of the house.
He's not in the home now, but you're right... I don't want him there!!! I'll see about changing the locks once again! I should've never given him a key... I was doing what my attorney said to do, because she said that he could change the locks on me if I didn't give him a key. I was scared, but now he has access whenever he wants and he's not giving a notice as he promised. I should've know better than to believe a promise from a wayward! Thank you all for giving me advice and caring so much.
He's not in the home now, but you're right... I don't want him there!!! I'll see about changing the locks once again! I should've never given him a key... I was doing what my attorney said to do, because she said that he could change the locks on me if I didn't give him a key. I was scared, but now he has access whenever he wants and he's not giving a notice as he promised. I should've know better than to believe a promise from a wayward! Thank you all for giving me advice and caring so much.
If he was really serious about recovering his M his actions would show.
He's very wayward and waywards are entitled.
He is just tired of sleeping on his friend's futon. Every time you have a break in Plan B, look what happens to you? Have you been trying to stay focused and look for another job?
I don't believe you will truly begin to heal until you're away from his drama and completely dark. I think you're hoping with each little contact or break in Plan B he has changed.
If you reset the kwikkey - isn't that as good as changing the locks?
Do that ASAP.
A wayward that claims to be going out of town isn't necessarily speaking truth.
He wants back in and he may be trying to lower your vigilance
Indie, I only have that one type of lock on the front door. The other three deadbolts can't be changed without a locksmith.
star, if you have a #2 Phillips screwdriver and can read, you can change these deadbolts yourself. It's not that difficult at all. You don't need a locksmith for that. There are only four screws involved (perhaps six if the strike plate has to be replaced). Two on the interior and two on the edge of the door that slides into the strike plate on the door jamb. If you want to try it yourself, just shout out and I'll walk you through it step by step as you do it. I'll keep an eye out for you. You can get them from Lowe's or Home Depot for probably less than 20 bucks each.
It's a VERY basic DIY job. Let me know if I can help. If you do go to buy them before reaching out for assistance, if there is ANY glass in the doors that you are putting the locks in make sure you get a double cylinder lock. What that means is that you have to use a key to open it from the inside and outside. If no glass, single cylinder will be fine as it has a knob on the inside to open instead of a key.
If TW can walk you through it, that would be great.
My advice? I changed my locks 3 days ago. Cost 60$, the locksmith came and did it in less than an hour. I had asked my manager and a carpenter friend beforehand if it was easy to change; they said it's too complicated, and from looking at the locksmith as he worked, I have to agree.
If TW can walk you through it, that would be great.
My advice? I changed my locks 3 days ago. Cost 60$, the locksmith came and did it in less than an hour. I had asked my manager and a carpenter friend beforehand if it was easy to change; they said it's too complicated, and from looking at the locksmith as he worked, I have to agree.
jah, you're a doc, not a DIYer. It's a VERY simple job. Those guys make things look harder than they are to justify their charges. It's BS. I could literally change a deadbolt with my eyes closed.
No, I'm a DIYer. I've built shelves and cabinets, and a small simple outdoor greenhouse from scratch. But you're right, I don't touch mechanical stuffs.
I think it's wonderful that you are willing to walk her through it step by step.
If you reset the kwikkey - isn't that as good as changing the locks?
Do that ASAP.
A wayward that claims to be going out of town isn't necessarily speaking truth.
He wants back in and he may be trying to lower your vigilance
Indie, I only have that one type of lock on the front door. The other three deadbolts can't be changed without a locksmith.
star, if you have a #2 Phillips screwdriver and can read, you can change these deadbolts yourself. It's not that difficult at all. You don't need a locksmith for that. There are only four screws involved (perhaps six if the strike plate has to be replaced). Two on the interior and two on the edge of the door that slides into the strike plate on the door jamb. If you want to try it yourself, just shout out and I'll walk you through it step by step as you do it. I'll keep an eye out for you. You can get them from Lowe's or Home Depot for probably less than 20 bucks each.
It's a VERY basic DIY job. Let me know if I can help. If you do go to buy them before reaching out for assistance, if there is ANY glass in the doors that you are putting the locks in make sure you get a double cylinder lock. What that means is that you have to use a key to open it from the inside and outside. If no glass, single cylinder will be fine as it has a knob on the inside to open instead of a key.
Hope this helps, and thinking of you!
I went to Home Depot last time to buy all new deadbolts, so I guess I'll be doing that again! This was the day I moved all of his things and gave him the Plan B letter. It was a BUSY day, but I did it! I agree it will be much cheaper to buy all new locks again. Just sucks that I'm going to have to change them AGAIN!!! My mom thinks he will call a locksmith out for sure if I change them again. We have home security system as well, which is in his name. Can I just transfer it into my name only and change the security code as well?
Thanks for the tips! If I have any issues, I'll definitely ask you! The only lock I had problems with the last time was the front door, but my dear neighbor came over to help me. My neighbors are going to be pissed if he comes back and starts causing problems!
Well, like Letty said above, how can he change the locks if he can't get inside to do so? The locksmith isn't going to break in to do it, and I'm quite sure your idiot WH isn't that stupid either.
Actually, I kind of hope he is in a way, as it will serve you VERY well in court.
But for your personal peace, I hope not. That's more important.
I think the ring-a-ding to your lawyer will do the trick. Once he relays your WH's intentions to his lawyer, I think you'll see a shift in the chest puffing mindset.
Took my mom to a Professional baseball game tonight with company seats, right on 3rd base line. We had a great time! I wanted to take my mom, because she has never sat in such awesome seats and of course i love her! There was a concert after, which we stated to listen to a few songs and now I'm having a glass of champagne!
I'm off work all next week for the 4th (annual company shut-down).
Regarding the locksmith. Couldn't he just tell the locksmith that he lost his key and show proof of ownership of the home and be able to get in? Once he's in, he could change the locks.
Regarding the locksmith. Couldn't he just tell the locksmith that he lost his key and show proof of ownership of the home and be able to get in? Once he's in, he could change the locks.
Not many would do that, and I've never heard of it happening.
Its possible though I suppose. Security like house alarms and watchful neighbours will help though.
You just have to do the best you can.
Legally, my WH could break a window and get in.
I could call the police, but legally they don't have to do anything. Its his house.
I could round up a posse of relatives to come yell at him, but he doesn't have to listen.
My solicitor could send a strongly worded letter but he wouldn't have to read it.
But they are hurdles. And the hurdles have been enough to keep him out for a year.
Because he doesn't want to come into a house where he faces hassle and harrassment.
He wants me to give up and give in and become his divorce buddy. Or a cake bite.
And I won't do that. Not if it means living in a tent.
Has anybody else here had a WS threaten to move back in the home while separated/in divorce process?
Oh yes, its very common.
I didn't ask WH for his key back (I had the locksmith on speed dial) but he made a point of saying he wasn't going to give it back. That it was 'his house too'.
Yes it is. But his home? Not any more.
I told him I didn't want to discuss it and I called the locksmith as soon as he was gone.
Before I went totally dark he tried a) saying I could live there and he would pay the bills still as he's so generous to b) Telling me to move in with my parents so he could 'live at home' to c) saying he wouldn't pay the bills anymore to d) saying he could live there with me too if I wasn't so unreasonable.
His word means nothing.
Since I've been dark I have no idea what he wants or intends to do, but if he darkens my door he will have a hell of a battle on his hands.
Thank you Indie for all of your responses and making me feel better about the situation. He already threatened twice to get a locksmith and that never happened, so this is probably another empty threat.
Waywards suck! They just suck.... Selfish little rat turds! Ok, I feel better now...
Off to church I go... I have a counseling appt right after the service with a church member.
You simply stay focused on being clear and concise logical and firm kind but not sucked into drama
your boundaries must be upheld like walls around a sanctuary.
Any lawyer, police, etc who questions your locks.....you tell them that WH did not abide by the agreement for notification and you feel vulnerable and unsafe since he did not.
That you expected him to follow an agreement. He did not.
No love busting about WH to anyone either (disrespectful judgments, angry outbursts, etc)
I spoke with the counselor today from our church and she has hope for our marriage. She and her husband were divorced for 3 years and she said God led him back to her. She has a testimony on YouTube through the church.
She is asking me to sit down with him and tell him that I want to give our marriage a chance.
I told her that I feel like I'm being pulled in so many directions by family, friend's, co-workers, etc. everybody has an opinion in what is the right thing for me or us to do, so it's causing a lot of confusion for me.
Talked to my mom afterwards and she has such negativity in her voice and said a lot of ugly things. I explained to her that sometimes I just need to talk and not asking for advice.
Your Plan B letter was (and is) your telling him you want the marriage to have a chance. Sitting down to speak with him and breaking your Plan B would be just re-iteration and participation in the drama and waywards do not hear the message until they are ready to.
I spoke with the counselor today from our church and she has hope for our marriage. She and her husband were divorced for 3 years and she said God led him back to her. She has a testimony on YouTube through the church.
She is asking me to sit down with him and tell him that I want to give our marriage a chance.
As reading said, you did this in your Plan B letter. Not to mention throughout Plan A.
It can happen over time. Dr H says two years, he advises divorce at the two year point because its rare to see recovery after that point.
But what is YOUR deadline? You don't have to give him the opportunity of one day if you don't want to.
Mine was six months. I've now extended it that he would get a hearing while he is still my H, until the D is final.
If I had children I would prob give it the full two years.
But I want a family and I can't really afford to spend up to five years in recovery without very good reason.
Its your call, Starfish. No one elses.
Your mum loves you. And you've all been too much exposed to his nonsense.
I told her that I feel like I'm being pulled in so many directions by family, friend's, co-workers, etc. everybody has an opinion in what is the right thing for me or us to do, so it's causing a lot of confusion for me.
I totally understand what you are feeling. I felt so torn by everyone's advice (family, MB, my IC) and it was hard to choose a path and stick with it. But you are the one who knows what is best for you and will ultimately have to live with it.
As for the Plan B letter, I had ultimately given my WH 2 of them! I kept thinking "doesn't he know that this isn't the way it has to be??" So I sent him another one. And he still didn't get it. So I left on his doorstep a photo album that I had put together with the kids that had pictures of me and him from over the years. I also had a message in there to him. I don't remember what it said but something to the effect that it was something to remember us by. God, was I silly and desperate.And I knew that this was my last shot. My last chance to get through to him because I was D-O-N-E. But after that is when his fog started to finally lift and I remember him asking me "Do you really think there is hope?" and I wrote "With all that I have done and written, how can you think there wasn't??"
I am not suggesting this or that you break your plan B. I'm just saying that whatever you do, you are the one who has to live with the shoulda, coulda, woulda's. Follow your heart in whatever path you choose.
"Whatever course you decide upon, there is always someone to tell you that you are wrong. There are always difficulties arising which tempt you to believe that your critics are right. To map out a course of action and follow it to an end requires courage" - Ralph Waldo Emerson
If your WH wants to make things right with you, he can. Why on earth would you go to him and beg him for another chance? NO WAY.
If it's meant to be, you can go on with your divorce (like this church lady did, right?) and if your wayward ever pulls himself together, he can come find you and win you back.
You've got enough on your plate without wondering if you should try and reconcile. And by the way, him wanting to move back to the house is not an attempt to be close to you or be nice to you, it's a vindictive move meant to torture you.
I love how he says in his note "get the guestroom ready." What are you? The maid?
If your WH wants to make things right with you, he can. Why on earth would you go to him and beg him for another chance? NO WAY.
If it's meant to be, you can go on with your divorce (like this church lady did, right?) and if your wayward ever pulls himself together, he can come find you and win you back.
You've got enough on your plate without wondering if you should try and reconcile. And by the way, him wanting to move back to the house is not an attempt to be close to you or be nice to you, it's a vindictive move meant to torture you.
I love how he says in his note "get the guestroom ready." What are you? The maid?
I agree with what you're saying about her own marriage, but she and her husband have helped many others save their marriages before divorce took place. I agree that I can still go through with divorce and be ok. I am stronger than I think and I will find love again. She wasn't asking or telling me to beg him for another chance. She simply wants to see where his mind and heart are at, so she can help me or us to move forward with recovery.
I think his threat about moving back in was empty... I don't believe he would consider doing that in our current situation. I wouldn't want to have 'War of The Roses' in my house... No thank you!!! It would be awful in our current situation and I won't live with him under these circumstances. Not happening! I also agree with what your thoughts about his comment on getting the guest room ready... You took the words right out of my mouth! I said the same thing! I wouldn't even consider it, but if I was vengeful, then I'd definitely consider decorating it in the most tacky and annoying way possible! I'd much rather pick out my nail polish color...
I told her that I feel like I'm being pulled in so many directions by family, friend's, co-workers, etc. everybody has an opinion in what is the right thing for me or us to do, so it's causing a lot of confusion for me.
I totally understand what you are feeling. I felt so torn by everyone's advice (family, MB, my IC) and it was hard to choose a path and stick with it. But you are the one who knows what is best for you and will ultimately have to live with it.
As for the Plan B letter, I had ultimately given my WH 2 of them! I kept thinking "doesn't he know that this isn't the way it has to be??" So I sent him another one. And he still didn't get it. So I left on his doorstep a photo album that I had put together with the kids that had pictures of me and him from over the years. I also had a message in there to him. I don't remember what it said but something to the effect that it was something to remember us by. God, was I silly and desperate.And I knew that this was my last shot. My last chance to get through to him because I was D-O-N-E. But after that is when his fog started to finally lift and I remember him asking me "Do you really think there is hope?" and I wrote "With all that I have done and written, how can you think there wasn't??"
I am not suggesting this or that you break your plan B. I'm just saying that whatever you do, you are the one who has to live with the shoulda, coulda, woulda's. Follow your heart in whatever path you choose.
"Whatever course you decide upon, there is always someone to tell you that you are wrong. There are always difficulties arising which tempt you to believe that your critics are right. To map out a course of action and follow it to an end requires courage" - Ralph Waldo Emerson
~RQ
Thank you for sharing your experience with me and for your kind words.
How are things working out for you both with recovery? What are you both doing?
I think the church lady knows how conflicted you feel about all of this. Of course you do! And it's natural to wonder if you've done everything you can and to wonder if somehow you can get the man you married back.
I get it that she didn't recommend begging but why do you have to take the initiative with this? Why can't you let HIM do some work here?
You've had a tough time doing a dark plan B and it has HURT you. This feels like another moment of wavering on your part. Why? Because it's just too awful to face the loss, perhaps? Because really seeing that the person you were madly in love with for so long is a practiced liar and cheat is horrifying? It is.
I totally get why you'd be vulnerable to this kind of advice, but really...your wayward has shown NO willingness to do anything here...so what's left to save?
star, people mean right, they really do. but offering your H an(other) olive branch is a mistake at this point, unless what you're looking for is plan c. you are strong, you can do this! plan b all the way, baby. you'll thank yourself later. your WH knows the way home, and how to get there.
I think the church lady knows how conflicted you feel about all of this. Of course you do! And it's natural to wonder if you've done everything you can and to wonder if somehow you can get the man you married back.
I get it that she didn't recommend begging but why do you have to take the initiative with this? Why can't you let HIM do some work here?
You've had a tough time doing a dark plan B and it has HURT you. This feels like another moment of wavering on your part. Why? Because it's just too awful to face the loss, perhaps? Because really seeing that the person you were madly in love with for so long is a practiced liar and cheat is horrifying? It is.
I totally get why you'd be vulnerable to this kind of advice, but really...your wayward has shown NO willingness to do anything here...so what's left to save?
I know it hurts. It's ok to be hurt.
You described what I'm feeling so well... Wow! I'm feeling very conflicted.
They sell MB books in the church bookstore, but the counselor from church wasn't familiar with the principles. Maybe I should refer her to MB website so she can see what it's all about. She is following the bible and said if you have God in the center, then there's no room for evil/temptation. The pastor and another elder from the church are planning on speaking with WH next Sunday I was told. I'm not sure if they are still planning on asking him to leave or if they are wanting to see where his mind and heart are at first. The elder saw me after my session and said above all they want to protect me. Of course, they would like to see our marriage restored, but they need to speak with him too.
Star, Kiss and I are doing real well. I wish he would catch up to me with his reading but we are doing pretty good. We did go to a wedding the other evening and we were discussing the ceremony and how it spoke of many of the marriagebuilder principles. It was nice how we both noticed that and kiss spoke of how he wish more of his recently married friends knew of them. I was proud of him Thanks for asking
Star, Kiss and I are doing real well. I wish he would catch up to me with his reading but we are doing pretty good. We did go to a wedding the other evening and we were discussing the ceremony and how it spoke of many of the marriagebuilder principles. It was nice how we both noticed that and kiss spoke of how he wish more of his recently married friends knew of them. I was proud of him Thanks for asking
Oh, I'm glad things are going well! I wonder if the two of you could read together? My sister brought over a book to me the other day, 'The Four Agreements' by: Don Miguel Ruiz. She asked me to read a chapter out loud to her "Don't Make Assumptions" while we were drinking a refreshing iced coffee with caramel and cream... mmmm! Anyway, it really helped me a so much to read it outloud to her and then we both reflected and talked about it for awhile. I know that I'm at fault for making assumptions on a daily basis, sometimes multiple times per day, so this has helped me to calm my mind and not jump to conclusions without hard facts/evidence.
I also read a post tonight about "Being Still" on one of the threads here, which has helped me tremendously tonight. I know that I'll be ok no matter what... If my WH decides he wants to recommit to our marriage or even if he doesn't... I'll have NO REGETS! I gave my all and I can live with and be proud of my devotion, words, actions, etc. I deserve to have the same amount of love, respect, honesty and faithfulness as I am willing to give another. I can and will make it through this regardless of the outcome. I have given my ALL and can sleep at night knowing that I did everything I could. I realize I cannot change another person or their feelings for me. It's up to him to do the work, if it's what he wants. If not, then I have developed a wealth of information from this site to help my next relationship to become stronger with many key elements to a successful romantic relationship. It's sad that I didn't know about all of the principles sooner, but we never get married thinking this could ever happen to us! I'm thankful for the knowledge that I do have now and continuing to learn everyday!
That sounds like a good idea. I just don't want it to seem that I am lecturing him. I know that post that you are talking about. It's a great one! Glad to hear that you are doing you
Got a phone call today from a fellow co-worker telling me that WH is going around telling everyone at work that we are separated/divorcing, because I have "mental issues". Seriously???
This is slander and defamation and I'm still on FMLA! I cannot believe that he is actually attacking my character! Yes, they always justify, blame shift, etc., but this is ridiculous!
Got a phone call today from a fellow co-worker telling me that WH is going around telling everyone at work that we are separated/divorcing, because I have "mental issues". Seriously???
This is slander and defamation and I'm still on FMLA! I cannot believe that he is actually attacking my character! Yes, they always justify, blame shift, etc., but this is ridiculous!
It takes time to train people in the 'I don't want to hear any news about the man who betrayed me' school. But people eventually get it. You sometimes have to jump in real quick when they bring up their name, sometimes there's nothing you can do.
When you say that, its clear to people you have been truly hurt, but are being graceful and dignified. That squelches anything they can be said about you.
People who spread things that are clearly false always make themselves look bad.
On my work mug, it says 'Trust me, I'm a reporter'. The way I hold on to trust is by not printing anything false. People think reporters do this all the time but the truth is it would damage my reputation beyond repair. Every newspaper knows this and the ones which don't end up losing readers or in inquiries.
Your H is playing a very dangerous game and his brain is too affair-fried to realise it.
Just let him roll on with his plans to ruin his reputation and keep disproving him by not getting involved.
Hearing what WH is saying, I would simply matter of factly tell people who tell me about it that "Actually, we are separated and may divorce due to his cheating on me with (insert name of OW). I am handling the mess as best as I can thank you, it IS quite hurtful".
and would not look for further info about his lies.
Since you two work at the same employer, you ought to tell human resources about the estrangement due to the infidelity so they have a heads up if they don't. Matter of factly.
Your lawyer? Well, you can give them the info about what WH is saying but I wouldn't try to get a suit for defamation of character. I would just behave in a classy and sane way to show that you are a good and decent person.
Try to ignore his wayward posturing though. He is still trying to spin a version of reality to make himself appear like a good guy.
I agree with all of your comments and appreciate all of the advice. I understand WHY he is doing this and yes, his brain is obviously fried... lol! I understand the whole blame shifting, not wanting to face the truth and denial, but it still pisses me off! Breaking my heart wasn't enough for you...? And now to add insult to injury, you're going to twist the knife and make the story self-serving. "Poor me... She was crazy and psycho, so I had no other choice but to cheat on her! I forgot my name, that I was married, trying for a family... I forgot that I had a beautiful, caring wife and a great life! She was mental, so this caused me to find my pants dropped down around my ankles in a storage closet of a hotel with some random woman that I didn't know. It's all her fault for trying, praying, researching and doing everything possible for us to have a baby and start our own family. She is the reason that I committed adultery... I had no other choice!"
Star, I tend to agree with everyone, best to ignore. I know its not easy thinking others believe the fogbabble or think ill of you. This is something I struggled with, my integrity and reputation is something I value. For my own healing I have had to let this go and accept that this is something I have no control over. I can only control my own behaviour and hopefully that will speak for itself.
I think reading's post is brilliant for how to handle this:
Originally Posted by reading
Hearing what WH is saying, I would simply matter of factly tell people who tell me about it that "Actually, we are separated and may divorce due to his cheating on me with (insert name of OW). I am handling the mess as best as I can thank you, it IS quite hurtful".
and would not look for further info about his lies.
Since you two work at the same employer, you ought to tell human resources about the estrangement due to the infidelity so they have a heads up if they don't. Matter of factly.
Your lawyer? Well, you can give them the info about what WH is saying but I wouldn't try to get a suit for defamation of character. I would just behave in a classy and sane way to show that you are a good and decent person.
Try to ignore his wayward posturing though. He is still trying to spin a version of reality to make himself appear like a good guy.
WH's seem particularly good at trying to make the BW look nuts while they are the poor victim of a crazed scorned woman. Ignoring it shows to others you are anything but.
Now, give us an update on what you have beeen up to? How are you star?
I haven't gone to H/R and don't plan on it, unless things get really bad! I did contact my attorney just to let her know and she said she would send a cease and desist letter out.
I'm just tired of being walked on by him! After work today, I decided to do some walking of my own and went for a LONG walk over to my mom's house with my dogs. My dogs and I were both hot and tired by time we made it over there, so my mom drove us all back home! lol... It was a great walk though... I needed it and my dogs did too!
The pastor from the church texted me and I guess they are going to "talk" to him this week.
I finally finished all of my paperwork for my attorney that I've been dreading! It's all becoming so real and I cried a little at my desk today while working. I don't want a divorce at all! I didn't want any of this and my heart is still shattered to smithereens! Tears are pouring down my face as I type this... I hate him so much for what he has done! I hate him for being so damn selfish, cruel and and an empty shell. I hate him for not taking his marriage vows seriously and while we were trying to start a family, he was getting attention and God only knows what on the side from at least 2 other women that I know about. I hate him and this whore of a woman that we work with for openly staying at each other's houses since he's been out of the house. I hate his behavior and the pain he has caused to me, our families, friends, neighbors, co-workers, pets, etc. So, why is it that I still love him? Why do I care? Why shouldn't I just say *f* him and be happy about divorcing him and moving on with my life?
I sit here in "our" house alone... night after night. I hate going to sleep at night by myself. I miss having him next to me. I now put body pillows on either side of me and have my dogs snuggled up with me too, but it's not the same! I miss so many things... I could go on and on... We have/had so many things in common and enjoyed doing so many of the same activities together. I miss boating, I miss sunsets, I miss walks on the beach, finding shells, candlelit dinners at home or dinner on the town. I miss walking our dogs to the park, riding our bikes, taking baths, swimming in the pool, showers, massages, sports games, fun with friends, entertaining/cooking together, snorkeling, scuba diving, scalloping, taking our dogs with us on vacation or just getting away for a weekend get-away (just the two of us). I miss our intimacy. I miss kissing him, I miss him holding me, I miss making love. I miss his smile and the way he smelled. I miss his cooking and how he always liked to make me special meals. I miss hearing him call me by my nicknames. I miss my best friend!!!
Sorry... I really needed to get that out! I could keep going on and on... Just having a rough day/night. Oh, here come the tears and pain... Why? Why? Why?
Thanks for the hugs and kind words! I just took a little break... work has been busy and I was finishing my paperwork. Having a really rough night... I just wish this pain would go away. I wish so many things and pray for so many things. I have to believe that God has a plan for me... A better plan! I'm trying so hard to just LET GO! I'm really struggling with this at the moment. Letting go is so hard to do...
The best solution is a truly dark as night Plan B. Without that, you will have these types of feelings for a LOOOOOOONNNNGGGG time. I don't want that for you. How is the new job search coming?
The best solution is a truly dark as night Plan B. Without that, you will have these types of feelings for a LOOOOOOONNNNGGGG time. I don't want that for you. How is the new job search coming?
I couldn't agree with you more about the dark Plan B! I haven't had anytime to even consider looking for another job as I've been so busy with paperwork, research, copying, faxing, emailing, notarizing, mailing, etc. with/for attorneys. I'm working on a huge list at work (Excel), so my eyes are so exhausted by the end of the day. I have a huge opportunity to make some good money on this deal, so I'm feverishly working to finish by the deadline on the 27th of this month. By the time I get home, eat, walk my dogs, I'm mentally and physically drained!
Tonight was a rough day/night, but tomorrow is another day. I really like my job, so this is hard for me. I'm definitely giving it some thought though or maybe going back to school...? I really haven't had much time to think about anything except for the past couple of days... Today was not only a Monday, but a rough Monday!
I feel your pain and understand how you feel. Its not an easy journey. I too still love my husband and miss the person he was - a wonderful loving husband and father, someone I admired and respected, my best friend. He has become Isildur someone I do not know or recognise, I resent the devastation his selfish addiction has caused, yet I still love him. I do not excuse or accept his behaviour but I understand it's a negative consequence of his A.
Coming to terms with the betrayal of the A, their appalling wayward behaviour takes time, but I think coming to terms with the loss of our marriage, friendship, family and life, takes even longer. There is no set timeframe, we all have to grieve and take life one day at a time. I think we should be proud that we valued our marriage and family enough that we are willing to do whatever it takes to rebuild our marriage and that our love remains in tact in the face of betrayal and pain.
I feel your pain and understand how you feel. Its not an easy journey. I too still love my husband and miss the person he was - a wonderful loving husband and father, someone I admired and respected, my best friend. He has become Isildur someone I do not know or recognise, I resent the devastation his selfish addiction has caused, yet I still love him. I do not excuse or accept his behaviour but I understand it's a negative consequence of his A.
Coming to terms with the betrayal of the A, their appalling wayward behaviour takes time, but I think coming to terms with the loss of our marriage, friendship, family and life, takes even longer. There is no set timeframe, we all have to grieve and take life one day at a time. I think we should be proud that we valued our marriage and family enough that we are willing to do whatever it takes to rebuild our marriage and that our love remains in tact in the face of betrayal and pain.
Take care Star you are not alone
Thank you so very much! You have no idea how much your sincere, understanding and caring words mean to me tonight. It's so comforting to come here knowing that I'm not alone and that I'm understood. Many people here experiencing the same emotions and feelings at some point. Reading other people's stories helps me and also allows me to remember, reflect, sympathize and empathize on those oh so familiar feelings! It helps me to see where I was and where I am now. I pray that my marriage could be a MB success story like so many of you! I also have to remind myself that a marriage requires work from two people. We can't make a successful marriage on our own, but we do have the ability to do whatever we can to make ourself successful and whole again. One day at a time...
On a side note... I'll be 37 in September. Already dealing with infertility and wanting a family/baby so desperately. I can't even begin to imagine dating again, trying to find "the one". I just feel like so many of my hopes and dreams have been destroyed. Will I ever have the family that I dreamed of? Will I ever get the opportunity to be a mother?
My very good friend had her first baby at age 48. That little guy is the light of her life. She fought a 17 year battle against infertility -- and won! And she went through a divorce and remarriage during that time(now that I think about it, right around your age....)
Star you are doing the work! The crying, grieving paves the way for future joy. I promise you. Do you know what I get from all this?
Originally Posted by starfish75
I miss boating, I miss sunsets, I miss walks on the beach, finding shells, candlelit dinners at home or dinner on the town. I miss walking our dogs to the park, riding our bikes, taking baths, swimming in the pool, showers, massages, sports games, fun with friends, entertaining/cooking together, snorkeling, scuba diving, scalloping, taking our dogs with us on vacation or just getting away for a weekend get-away (just the two of us). I miss our intimacy. I miss kissing him, I miss him holding me, I miss making love. I miss his smile and the way he smelled. I miss his cooking and how he always liked to make me special meals. I miss hearing him call me by my nicknames. I miss my best friend!!!
I dont hear that YOU lost something irreplacable and precious. I hear that HE threw it away. YOU stil have your mind and soul - so you still have all these precious gifts!!!
I hear that YOU had a good marriage. That YOU built up by being good at RC, IC, affection.... the whole ten ENs are represented in the post.
YOU still have all these skills! YOU can give them to another. HE lost those precious things. YOU did not.
Its human to not be able to picture that happening with someone else while you are grieving the lost results of your hard work. But I rest quite easily when I picture your future.
My very good friend had her first baby at age 48. That little guy is the light of her life. She fought a 17 year battle against infertility -- and won! And she went through a divorce and remarriage during that time(now that I think about it, right around your age....)
I come from Catholic immigrant stock and all the women had big families up until the last generation.
They were having babies well into their late forties.
Star you are doing the work! The crying, grieving paves the way for future joy. I promise you. Do you know what I get from all this?
Originally Posted by starfish75
I miss boating, I miss sunsets, I miss walks on the beach, finding shells, candlelit dinners at home or dinner on the town. I miss walking our dogs to the park, riding our bikes, taking baths, swimming in the pool, showers, massages, sports games, fun with friends, entertaining/cooking together, snorkeling, scuba diving, scalloping, taking our dogs with us on vacation or just getting away for a weekend get-away (just the two of us). I miss our intimacy. I miss kissing him, I miss him holding me, I miss making love. I miss his smile and the way he smelled. I miss his cooking and how he always liked to make me special meals. I miss hearing him call me by my nicknames. I miss my best friend!!!
I dont hear that YOU lost something irreplacable and precious. I hear that HE threw it away. YOU stil have your mind and soul - so you still have all these precious gifts!!!
I hear that YOU had a good marriage. That YOU built up by being good at RC, IC, affection.... the whole ten ENs are represented in the post.
YOU still have all these skills! YOU can give them to another. HE lost those precious things. YOU did not.
Its human to not be able to picture that happening with someone else while you are grieving the lost results of your hard work. But I rest quite easily when I picture your future.
Thank you Indie! You brought tears to my eyes again, but they ended with a smile! My family (brother, SIL and niece) are in town visiting. We went out for dinner tonight. This is the first time that they have seen me since everything was discovered. They are still in shock, especially my brother. My SIL and brother both believe that he's going to come crawling back eventually. My SIL thinks I will have grown too much by the time he comes back and my brother thinks if I were to take him back, that he would just do it all over to me again. It's kinda funny listening to people and their predictions. It makes me laugh, because nobody has a clue and everyone tries so hard to figure out the wayward mind and their next move. It's impossible as we all know!
OW #3 at work is notorious for taking leftovers (men on the rebound, in the process of break-up, newly broken-up, separated, divorcing or divorced). She has done the same thing to others, so she's nothing special! I guess that's why she's never been married. Who would want to marry such a low-life?
Had a great time with my family. My mom thought I was being a little "snippy" or short with her tonight. I really didn't feel like I was, but I guess my emotions are getting the best of me and I can't control how I'm going to feel at any given moment. I'm going out in "small doses" and I like to drive, so I can leave whenever I don't feel comfortable or get emotional.
Home now... listening to the rain on my screened-in patio next to the pool. Hoping for peace tonight. Peace to all of us that are hurting...
Oh, I can't remember if I mentioned this before or not... My SIL decided that she needed to tell her daughter (my 9 year old niece) before they came down to visit about my situation with WH. She told her a few weeks ago that WH and I weren't together right now. She explained that WH was enjoying "the single life", hanging with his friends and he thought that was more fun right now than being married. She told me that my niece looked at her with a half puzzled/disgusted look on her face and said, "Really????". She then said, "I think the problem really is that he has some sort of bug and he needs to get rid of it!!!".
Yep! Straight from the mouth of my 9 year old niece! She is young and yet she still gets it!!! Made my day!!!
I've had a few people voice their predictions, but as you noted none of us know what the future holds, there is no crystal ball or guarantee... wouldn't it be easier if there was. My original IC (who I no longer see) told me she thought Isildur's A would last 1 year.
I loved your niece's comment about him having a bug and needing to get rid of it. I needed a good laugh! I think your family's visit is well timed, enjoy their visit and have lot of well deserved fun.
YOU still have all these skills! YOU can give them to another. HE lost those precious things. YOU did not.
Its human to not be able to picture that happening with someone else while you are grieving the lost results of your hard work. But I rest quite easily when I picture your future.
So do I.
Star, you'll get there.
I am. Slowly, but surely.
As long as I avoid Plan B cracks. When these happen, even indirect, I relapse in recovery.
Oh, I can't remember if I mentioned this before or not... My SIL decided that she needed to tell her daughter (my 9 year old niece) before they came down to visit about my situation with WH. She told her a few weeks ago that WH and I weren't together right now. She explained that WH was enjoying "the single life", hanging with his friends and he thought that was more fun right now than being married. She told me that my niece looked at her with a half puzzled/disgusted look on her face and said, "Really????". She then said, "I think the problem really is that he has some sort of bug and he needs to get rid of it!!!".
Yep! Straight from the mouth of my 9 year old niece! She is young and yet she still gets it!!! Made my day!!!
My four year old niece likened softlad to a 'giant killer hedgehog' and Plan B as a 'really good escape'. My 5 year old nephew thought changing the locks was 'really clever and would make anyone sorry' (I didnt expose to them as they are not influences on softlad, but these are children who listen at keyholes) My nephew also added: 'He has to be REALLY sorry and not just say he is".
They have been an AMAZING source of support! Better than many adults. They know exactly when to hug me without my saying so.
When my sister asked my nephew if he understood what the A meant, he said: "Yes. Uncle Softlad is not being a nice friend. He's ignoring Aunty Indie and making her cry. He shouldnt be with OW (My nephew knows OW and her children) and act like he likes her more."
He's also said he feels sorry for OWs children. "Because it's nice when your mummy is nice".
I've caught him gosspiing to the neighbours about it over the garden wall, helping me further expose!
I have a BW friend whose H left her two years ago. Now her uncommonly bright daughter is nearly four, she is starting to get it. "Daddy left you on your own, didnt he! That's so awful!"
Children get it. I've never understood this attitude that they 'won't understand'. Children understand being mean, or abandonment better than anyone.
I agree with you Indie children understand, they know right from wrong. It is amazing how perceptive they can be. My DS7 told me that dad broke his promise, later he asked me if I would remarry and I said no I am still married to dad, he told me he was glad I was not going to break my promise.
He has been my main source of strength. His hugs and loving comments are so well timed. He recently told me I was a loving caring mum.
This afternoon he made a comment about how there were nice people and mean people. He told me PEGI was mean b/c she took dad from "you and our family" - out of the mouths of babes!
I come from Catholic immigrant stock and all the women had big families up until the last generation.
They were having babies well into their late forties.
Aaah indie, thanks for the reassurance. This is what I (and I suspect star) need to hear.
Husbands becoming wayward are not the end of our plans to be mothers. I am starting to see I have an opportunity... to learn how to affair-proof a marriage before I bring a child into it. I have seen the impact on my nephew, and I plan to avoid this now I have found MB.
Another happy story, I have a friend who told me her friend got married at 35, and had SEVEN children with her husband. SEVEN!!! And still happily married.
On this theme, my broodiness has uncannily disappeared. I was desperate for a child just before and after my H dropped the A bomb. When I went into Plan B, I was planning on having eggs frozen, much to my sister's amusement ("you're only 32!!!!")
Now I just dont care as much. Being in love makes you broody, I suspect having a frozen lovebank due to NC makes you less so. I feel much more 'what will be will be' these days.
I returned the letter to sender yesterday. Hopefully he gets the point. Makes me wonder if he's doing it on purpose to see if I'll tamper with his mail? I don't think so buddy... you have nothing on me! I'm taking the high road!
As many of you know, we work for the same company and he hasn't been emailing me at work, but I did receive an email today from him as I'm unable to block his email at work.
The email read:
I want to know if your willing to let me know what you want out of our divorce. I think we're adults enough to discuss this so that we don't have to go to mediation in September. Are you willing to give me a list so I can look it over?
WH
What's your take? By the way, I haven't responded! I also have proof of money transferring to his personal accounts, which I'm making a list of and it's only for the past year and we've been married for 5 years! Guess I'll forward the email to my attorney. Our mediation is scheduled for Mid-September.
For what its worth, I think my WH has tried the same thing, just through his solicitor. Asking for my proposal about settlement. Another words, asking us betrayed to show our cards first.
My solicitor said no way. He has already shown he is not engaging in full dislcosure about marital assets. So it is now his responsibility to disclose, not mine.
Meanwhile, I am waiting. I hope this is working in my favour.
I think she means that you zip your lip and say nothing.
What do I think about his email? I think that he is showing, as ALL waywards, that he doesn't respect you or your wishes. You have stated clearly how he is to communicate with you, and he is taking advantage of you not being able to block him at work. Typical.
Are you still actively looking for a new job? My guess is, not.
You would do sooooooo much better if you didn't have to work with him. As much as you don't believe it, your workplace is a HUGE trigger. You already have your home as a trigger, so now you are constantly triggered.
Plan B isn't just about NC. It's a state of being. Without the NC, you can't begin to reap all of the benefits of a true Plan B.
For what its worth, I think my WH has tried the same thing, just through his solicitor. Asking for my proposal about settlement. Another words, asking us betrayed to show our cards first.
My solicitor said no way. He has already shown he is not engaging in full dislcosure about marital assets. So it is now his responsibility to disclose, not mine.
Meanwhile, I am waiting. I hope this is working in my favour.
I hope it works out for you! Yes, I agree he is not being honest and why would I expect anything different him? He thinks I'm naive and I'm getting so much stronger. He has his financial paperwork to complete and as usual he thinks he can get out of this too! I don't think so Mr. Wayward! Funny how he's asking me about what I want out of the divorce, but never asked what I needed or wanted from him and our marriage. Laws, vows, promises, honesty and integrity mean nothing to him. He thinks he can continue to manipulate me and I won't allow it anymore!
I think she means that you zip your lip and say nothing.
What do I think about his email? I think that he is showing, as ALL waywards, that he doesn't respect you or your wishes. You have stated clearly how he is to communicate with you, and he is taking advantage of you not being able to block him at work. Typical.
Are you still actively looking for a new job? My guess is, not.
You would do sooooooo much better if you didn't have to work with him. As much as you don't believe it, your workplace is a HUGE trigger. You already have your home as a trigger, so now you are constantly triggered.
Plan B isn't just about NC. It's a state of being. Without the NC, you can't begin to reap all of the benefits of a true Plan B.
I agree with you Scotland! My workplace is a trigger for me at times, but I'm gaining strength and ignoring him... pretending he doesn't exist. I really wish I could find a job that pays what I'm currently making. I have friends who are currently job hunting with no luck, so it doesn't seem that it's a good time right now. I'm keeping my eyes and ears open though.
My house is a trigger too, but I've removed all pictures, artwork, etc. the furniture triggers me at times, but I can't do anything about that right now. I originally thought I might want to keep the home, but I'm thinking a fresh start might be good for me? New things, new memories...
Spoke with my attorney's office today. My attorney said that if we are able to get some things settled between us before court/mediation, it could be in our best interest. Not sure what to do... I feel that he is going to take advantage of me. I guess I could deal with the assets, but I'm not going to handle the money situation, retirement accounts, etc? Any advice?
Star. This is was what I found on the internet...along with the recommendation of speaking to a professional in the divorce field.
Quote
Don't Sign ANYTHING
Many people have made the mistake of signing papers or preliminary agreements which later caused the outcome of property and custody battles to be decided against them. You may be signing something that no attorney can modify later. Don't do it! If your spouse wants you to sign something, politely say you'll be glad to, but your attorney has "ordered you not to sign anything" before he or she has a look at it.
Is anybody having problems listening to MB radio? It says it's playing, but there is no sound. I even deleted the app and reinstalled and still having issues. Just curious if anybody here is having the same issue?
Is anybody having problems listening to MB radio? It says it's playing, but there is no sound. I even deleted the app and reinstalled and still having issues. Just curious if anybody here is having the same issue?
I have problems listening to it with the app on my droid. It will play for a few minutes and then stop. I don't know if that is what you are talking about. I don't have problems with it in my computer.
I finally got the radio station to work later in the day.
I'm not going to sugar coat anything here, it's been a rough week! WH has been emailing me numerous times this week and I haven't responded once! He told me that I have 1 month to find my own car insurance when our policy expires. He then tells me he's coming by the house "to see the dogs" on Wednesday, which he did, but he also went into the office. I put a keyed lock on my bedroom door so he can't go through my things anymore like he did last Friday. He went through everything... nightstand, my clothes closet, everything! He emails me again yesterday requesting that I leave the iPod docking station or the alarm clock docking station for him on the kitchen counter for him to pick up on Friday at lunch. He said I have all of the stereo equipment and he has nothing! He said he needs something to listen too! Of course, I ignored him. He emails me again today and says since he hasn't received a response from me that he assumes that I'll leave the iPod docking station out for him tomorrow. Again, no response. I'm taking a 1/2 day tomorrow and praying that he doesn't come over.
Saw him driving down the street tonight and turned down OW#3/whore/co-worker's street, so I'm sure he went to her house this evening.
I'm proud of myself for not responding to anything! Our mediation is scheduled for Mid-September. I'm not giving him anything until then! I'm not sure what to do if he comes by tomorrow. He's such a coward/conflict avoider, so I doubt he will come in if he sees my car, but I'm trying to plan in case he does. Why is he doing this crap? Why can't he just walk away and wait patiently until our mediation? Why all the demands?
He's trying to find the path to opening a conversation with you. He wants to push your buttons, but he can't find them. So he will keep trying.
Thats why email through work has to cease. Would your boss support some type of IT solution? Blocking him from emailing you? He has no business purpose, and if you told them he's trying to conduct personal business through company email they may work with you to end it. Then you could be in a proper plan B.
I'm taking a 1/2 day tomorrow and praying that he doesn't come over.
Oh star, you can't heal with this level of anxiety going on!
Change the locks pronto. You need this for peace of mind, right now you are on edge that your abuser can enter your home on a whim.
Once those locks are changed, then who cares if WH tries to come over. You simply check before opening the door to anyone. If it is him... go and put some headphones on and ignore whilst dancing around the house to your fave tunes. If he camps down on your doorstep in some sort of foggy wayward stand, call the cops.
Is your WH using your workplace email to communicate with you? Could you not go to your employer and tell him that this needs to stop? I would. IMMEDIATELY.
And WHY OH WHY are you letting him come into the home? DO you still not have exclusive right to it? You do understand that with these HOLES in Plan B you are actually HELPING THE AFFAIR, right? You are propping up your WH in his waywardness. And in the meantime, you are paying the toll. I couldn't pay that toll, why are you?
My attorney told me I had to give him a key, because a judgement hasn't been made. I'm not sure what else I can do. He has been giving me notice before he comes over, but it still causes me great stress! What else can I do here?
I'll see about blocking his emails at work today. I'm so pissed that he is flaunting OW #3 in front of my face, driving right past my mom's house to go to visit his whore!
My attorney told me I had to give him a key, because a judgement hasn't been made.
Why what will happen if you dont allow him to have a key?
Will you be dragged before a judge and jury?
Jail time? A fine?
I tell you honeslty - I would do jail time before I allowed WH anywhere near my knicker drawer.
This is an estranged husband going through your personal items!!!
If this was a stranger, this would be considered a very serious, pervy offence.
I would sack any lawyer who is too lazy to protect you.
She should be writing up a letter telling him that his inappropriate behaviour with your belongings mean he can no longer be trusted to access the property unaccompanied.
If he needs to access the property, he must inform her by letter giving a specific reason as to WHY he needs to access the property. And her client will arrange for him to be accompanied by a third party to insure her privacy and belongings are not disturbed.
I would just tell her to what she needs to do to make this happen or meet with another lawyer about how you can keep him from disrupting your life. It's harrasment.
If all else fails, you should move somewhere else. Keeping the home field advantage is preferable in Plan B, but allowing them access into your home is in no way Plan B in any shape or form. What he has been doing to you actually gives me the creeps. My home is my sanctuary, it is safe, it is private and is where I have done my Plan B healing. He doesn't want you to heal.
I wrote a letter to my attorney Indie asking for her help! Thank you so much to all of you....I'm about to lose it! I cannot continue to take anymore of this [censored]! I'm ok as long as I'm in my house (without him having access). I've been really strong at work, holding my head high, but for the love of God....what is wrong with these sick [censored]? WH & OW#3....how do they sleep at night? I hope KARMA gets them and I pray that good Karma comes my way. I have so much love and support from family, friends, co-workers, neighbors and so many of you here. Thank you for helping me and understanding. I need a lot of love, hugs and prayers right now. I cannot wait until all of this is over and I don't care about any of this anymore!
Sorry for the bad language...censored comments, but I'm angry as hell today!
I wrote a letter to my attorney Indie asking for her help! Thank you so much to all of you....I'm about to lose it! I cannot continue to take anymore of this [censored]! I'm ok as long as I'm in my house (without him having access). I've been really strong at work, holding my head high, but for the love of God....what is wrong with these sick [censored]? WH & OW#3....how do they sleep at night? I hope KARMA gets them and I pray that good Karma comes my way. I have so much love and support from family, friends, co-workers, neighbors and so many of you here. Thank you for helping me and understanding. I need a lot of love, hugs and prayers right now. I cannot wait until all of this is over and I don't care about any of this anymore!
Sorry for the bad language...censored comments, but I'm angry as hell today!
Star from someone who has a tremendously deplorable xWH ... with time you will see how you come out on top.
The best thing I did for myself when dealing with the Wayward (we have very small children) was accept that I need to have steel strong patience. I need to build it as a habit. I need to let xWH throw everything at me and I try with all my might to let it roll off my shoulders.
Granted xWH can still get under my skin and really hurt my core, but most of the time I can keep the patience strong and know I am following the right path.
For me the best practice to eliminate all the bad habits I built concerning (AO's, DJ's, and SD's) is to have xWH crap and not get sidetracked off this path. I have now built good habits, which I use to refrain from AO's, DJ's, and SD's no matter how horrible xWH is to me or the kids.
With time ... it has made all the difference in liking who I have become. I needed that practice. I guess you could say I am using xWH to build a better me. He gives me great practice. I am sure if he knew how I was using him...it would probably just piss him off more because as a wayward he needs me to be a [censored], nasty, vindictive, and angry ... otherwise how can he blame it all on me
See what he thinks about your options to keep it secure then.
Really. This is un-acceptable.
No key to him and he will have to go to court to get one. Court. COURT.
No threats of legal action but actual legal action to the point of court. You can make your case for having allowed him access and that he did not follow the agreement to give notice AND rifled through your belonging making you feel very vulnerable and unsafe.
Let him threaten to take legal backup for access to the house and let your attorney continue to tell you is mumbo jumbo about this. Stand firm against both.
The fact is, YOU anticipated WH following guidelines about the house with the first round of communication about the house access and he did not.
Tell your attorney "He did not follow agreement." If WH takes you to actual court tell the judge "He did not follow agreement." If police come to say "let him in", if windows are broken and need fixing. "He did not follow agreement." If locksmiths lock you out. Document each event in a journal and keep it safe outside of the home.
I cannot wait until all of this is over and I don't care about any of this anymore!
He knows your weak spot and is trying to take you down with psychological warfare. He WANTS you to not care anymore so you will give everything away just to get rid of him.
This type of behaviour is easier to deal with when you can start to recognize it for what it is. You have now seen his true colors and nothing should surprise you anymore.
My attorney was trying to get an injunction in June to give me posession of the home, but the courthouse denied it and said we had to go to mediation first, which isn't until Mid-September. We don't have a court date. In my state Mediation must come first.
The assistant from the attorney's office called me back and said she would like to set up a phone consultation for me to speak with her about the situation NEXT THURSDAY!!! I cannot keep waiting....I need something done RIGHT NOW!!! I called back and let them know to tell my attorney that I need help right now and I cannot wait. This is so unfair! Why does he have all of the rights and I have none?
My attorney was trying to get an injunction in June to give me posession of the home, but the courthouse denied it and said we had to go to mediation first, which isn't until Mid-September. We don't have a court date. In my state Mediation must come first.
The assistant from the attorney's office called me back and said she would like to set up a phone consultation for me to speak with her about the situation NEXT THURSDAY!!! I cannot keep waiting....I need something done RIGHT NOW!!! I called back and let them know to tell my attorney that I need help right now and I cannot wait. This is so unfair! Why does he have all of the rights and I have none?
But if there is no punishment for changing the locks, why not just do it anyway? Why wait for legal permission? The law isnt interested in doing things like that for you.
Document all the crap he's pulled since being allowed access and just stand firm on the fact you wont allow him in.
What is to stop him doing changing the locks ON YOU during one of his little trips home?
What would your lawyer do then? Have you asked her?
Do you think a wayward plays by the rules?
If he cahnged the locks, and your lawyer wrote to him saying 'Oh no, that's naughty and does not reflect very well on you'
The assistant from the attorney's office called me back and said she would like to set up a phone consultation for me to speak with her about the situation NEXT THURSDAY!!! I cannot keep waiting....I need something done RIGHT NOW!!!
She's lazy. Get a free consult with the three best divorce lawyers in your area today. Ask them how they would protect your home from him. Pick the toughest.
I'm just tired of him having all the rights.... I'm doing what I have to do to protect myself, so I can have peace. I'm still creeped out that he went through all my things. He's obviously trying to get something on me, but I'm not a cheating whore, so he's out of luck!
He cancelled the HD channels on my cable today, but I don't care, because I rarely watch tv. I'm not going to do anything. He wants a response from me and doing everything he can, but it's not going to happen. Too bad for him!
I'm just tired of him having all the rights.... I'm doing what I have to do to protect myself, so I can have peace. I'm still creeped out that he went through all my things. He's obviously trying to get something on me, but I'm not a cheating whore, so he's out of luck!
He cancelled the HD channels on my cable today, but I don't care, because I rarely watch tv. I'm not going to do anything. He wants a response from me and doing everything he can, but it's not going to happen. Too bad for him!
Can't you have bill cancelled and set up your own solo account in your name?
He doesn't have access to anything in the home, can't do anything that way to make his presence known then....
(Sidebar - he's not really a very worthy adversary, is he? If I was trying to stamp my wayward feet and make my presence known I'd have cancelled the whole thing on the day of your favourite show)
I know its hard, but stay away from petty stuff and don't focus on the things your STBX does. At the end of the day, you'll be glad and you'll be healthier for it. Your husband has a ton of issues that he will pay a price for. Whether the karma bus hits him now or later, it will happen, and it may not happen in ways that are readily apparent to you.
As Eric Heiden, Olympic Gold medalist speed skater, once said when asked about how he won his races, "You have to keep your eye on your own race." So that means filter out the other stuff. The small stuff.
So, Star, mind your shop and clean out his. You're still in the thick things emotionally and will be for awhile, but this too shall pass. I'm one year out from Dday, and because I've done the things that MB suggests (for the most part), I'm in a better place. You've done those things too, and you will recover well. I can tell by your great spirit.
Thank you ladies! I appreciate your caring comments/advice.
My bf sent me an email this morning that WH sent her. She said she was reluctant, but decided I should know. She realizes he's not getting through to me, because I ignore him and don't respond to anything.
Anyway, for what it's worth, here's what he sent her:
I suggest as a friend of BW, that you should tell her to be very careful about what she puts on social media's.� A lot of her friends are friends of mine, so I will find out about it.� Secondly it's not healthy for her to play private investigator.� Following me around and taking pictures of my truck is not normal behavior.� If she has put spy ware on my phone some how, I'll find out about it next week, and if it's traced back to the IP address on BW's laptop, she'll be in some�trouble with the law.� She apparently has forgotten she filed for divorce.� I have tried to be frendly with her and say hi at work, and she doesn't respond.� I have given up.� I wish BW the best
I'm not following him around... my mom saw his truck at the whore's house. He's obviously paranoid about his phone being bugged. I have never bugged his phone. Of course, he's trying to blame shift and make me out to be the crazy person and saying he is moving on because "I" filed for divorce. Poor baby didn't have any other choice but to hop in bed with the company slut! lol... I'm sorry, but this just makes me laugh!
Please be advised Mr. Wayward Husband is continuously removing marital assets from the former marital home without consent of my client.
It is my understanding he is going through all of my client's personal belongings, including her undergarment drawers, nightstand, clothes' closet, etc.
My client would request Mr. WH provide her notice of his intent to enter the former marital home. She also requests he not enter the former marital home without a law enforcement escort to insure her privacy and belongings are not disturbed.
Thank you in advance for your prompt attention to this matter.
atta girl, star. i'm so glad you changed the locks! i didn't think i'd be able to refrain from posting without reading all the updates till i hit that one.
your WH is farking with you, that's all. it has nothing to do with you personally. he loves manipulating you and hurting you and driving you crazy. you need a dark plan b so he can fark off, you know? and his email to your IM was just more rubbish trying to "get" you. as GGMS said, use your WH to practice making a new you! then you can laugh when these kinds of things happen.
again, i'm glad you changed the locks. it's illegal here, but they would have had to cite me in contempt of court for it - i simply wasn't going to be hurt any more and needed my haven. good on you for getting it, and for lighting a fire under an attorney.
keep up the good work, stay strong, and make your next "to do" item having your work email handled so that WH is blocked from you. he is harrassing you, and that is not acceptable.
My friend responded to WH today and she sent the following:
She hasn't put spyware on your phone and she hasn't been following you. Someone took that picture and sent it to her. I know because she told me when they did it.�
If you truly believe her behavior is not "normal", implying she is somehow imbalanced, then why on earth would you keep tormenting her and instigating such "behavior".�
And maybe she doesn't want to talk to you at work (or ever) because you are rubbing your current affair with a mutual coworker in her face. And yep, it's an affair. You are still married.
It is impossible to see you as the victim and if you're being honest with yourself, you know that.�You don't need to retrieve car wax and an iPod docking station from the residence. You are f*ing with her.�Just leave her alone.�
**After she sent this, I asked her to block his email and not respond to him ever again. I also told my family and friends that I don't want to know about WH and OW#3 anymore. I know he's staying over there and I know he's doing it to piss me off as he dated her years ago. He knows I don't like her, she came up in MC. He is doing everything he can to get to me, but I'm holding firm and not responding or feeding into any of his games. I am ignoring him, don't look at him or speak to him. I pretend he doesn't exist.
I did have a strange feeling that came over me today though and I couldn't shake it. WH and I were experiencing infertility and I'm sure OW#3 knows this. She's not the marrying type and is a gold-digger. I wouldn't be surprised if she tries to trap him with a pregnancy, if she hasn't already. Just a gut feeling and two other friends of mine mentioned having the same feeling today. Very odd...and very disturbing. I took a Xanax to calm my nerves, so I hopefully won't dream about it.
WH will be gone all next week for his family reunion out of state, so this will give me some relief as well. I won't be worrying so much about him coming over, etc. Although I changed the locks, it is still unnerving at times.
I am so glad to see that you are doing so well. I am soooo glad that your attorney prepared and sent that letter for you so quickly. I am glad you have updated us. I check whenever I am on. How IS plan B working for you? How have you filled your time? Thank goodness he will be gone next week!!! You will get a break!!!!
I'm doing good... Eating, sleeping not as much as I like or need, but I am sleeping. Trying to drink more water, eat healthy, exercise, loving my pets, working hard and focusing at my job, spending time with family, friends, co-workers and neighbors. I'm smiling and laughing, holding my head high even when I want to cry.
This weekend, I am planning on treating myself to a pedicure and massage!
Star, your thoughts and focus shouldn't be on your WH while you are in Plan B. Your continued contact, and indirect contact is keeping you IN the drama. When is enough going to be enough for you? Because, frankly, it's killing ME to watch, because I KNOW where you're at, and I know how much better you could feel on the other side, if you were to just enter a true Plan B.
So, I am on the county website checking the status of paperwork that has been filed, etc. for our divorce and notice another case with both of our names. I click on it when I realize it's an injunction as I thought this might have been done by my attorney. I take a closer look and I am the defendant! WTF? Seriously? It was filed last Friday for Domestic Violence w/o Children. The judge dismissed it the same day and I only knew about it because I checked online today.
What on earth could be the motive behind this one? I haven't seem him, spoke with him or responded to anything! How could I possibly be abusive or violent? What's the deal with this one... Any thoughts?
He is strategizing or attempting to in order to weather the divorce with as much custody and finances as possible by coloring the situation to justify his position.
My first thought is that this man is a selfish, raging lunatic and I am ever so thankful you are soon going to be rid of him Starfish!
But, other than that, could you call the county and ask to get information about it? I would imagine you have a right to know about a charge that was filed against you.
But, other than that, could you call the county and ask to get information about it? I would imagine you have a right to know about a charge that was filed against you.
Learning from my own mistakes, I wouldn't bother. It will only widen the Plan B crack and keep you in the drama.
Who the he77 cares what WH is doing. If this is what keeps him busy, let him do it. You can't control it anyway.
In case it might strengthen your legal position, tell your lawyer. He / she can investigate.
In case it might strengthen your legal position, tell your lawyer. He / she can investigate.
This is my advice.
Why were you looking at the county websiter though?
Has there been any news on the job search? Have you contacted your HR to ask that your WH be blocked from emailing you? Have you had any more dealings with your friends/family telling you things that you shouldn't know?
How are you closing up the holes so you can be in Plan B?
In case it might strengthen your legal position, tell your lawyer. He / she can investigate.
This is my advice.
Why were you looking at the county websiter though?
Has there been any news on the job search? Have you contacted your HR to ask that your WH be blocked from emailing you? Have you had any more dealings with your friends/family telling you things that you shouldn't know?
How are you closing up the holes so you can be in Plan B?
I mentioned that I was getting updates on my D proceedings online.
I haven't blocked him from work email yet, as I have other matters that I'm dealing with HR right now. I think I might be able to do this on my own, but still learning the new email system. No luck on any jobs....
Another Plan B plug: I have let all family & friends know that I do not wish to hear ANYTHING about WH, what he's doing, where he's been, anything he has said, etc. So far, everybody seems to be on board with my request. We will see.... I might have to tell them again or interrupt should anybody forget. I am definitely feeling stronger and feel that I'm heading in the right direction....taking care of me and forgetting all of the other crap that I don't need to be worrying about right now. My focus right now is myself and my healing.
I haven't blocked him from work email yet, as I have other matters that I'm dealing with HR right now. I think I might be able to do this on my own, but still learning the new email system.
A priority IMO because as soon as he realises f&f are blocking him, he will redouble his efforts in attacking this (very large) hole.
Plan B tip? Never be afraid to ask for help. Or demand it. At the end of the day, as a fellow employee his unwelcome messages constitute sexual harrassment. Your company will know what to do. Or should know.
I've been doing really well this week so far. I've painted my toenails twice to go with my outfits for the week!
Also, I've made it clear to everyone that I do not want or need to hear anything about WH: what he's doing, where he's been, who he is staying with, etc. I'm receiving positive feedback and people agree and have made a conscious effort to protect me and keep me safe with NC! No contact or knowledge = No new hurts!
Sounds like you're heading in the right direction. And the more people see of the strong you, the more they will see that this is working for you. Just imagine how much better your PB would be without the holes.
Speaking of holes, how are things? Have you started any new hobbies?
I've started looking for new places to live... I need a fresh start for the new me! I'm going to start looking for new bedroom furniture for my new place. I've also been supporting and being a major support to a female coworker/dear friend who is going through a personal family crisis (not infidelity) matter. It has definitely helped to take the focus off of my own bs and I feel so good giving back and having the strength to give back!
I'm still doing my Pilates and hope to add back yoga soon! Doing yard work, gardening, cooking again... I'm feeling good right now. I know I'll still have my ups and downs, but I am getting to know myself again and it feels so good!
Thank you for all of the kind responses and care... I've missed you all and wanted to give an update. I haven't disappeared... I'm still here! Sometimes I feel that I could write a book about everything... lol!
Hey starfish. I am glad to see you back!! You sound good!! Good to see you taking care of yourself. New place to live! New bedroom furniture!!! WOW, you are taking your life back girl!! I am glad you updated us. Keep on keeping on!!!
Hey there starfish. You haven't been on in a while. How are you doing? Did you move? Did you burn your old bedroom furniture?!! hehe. I hope you are doing well and taking care of yourself.
Hello everyone!!!! I just logged in today and saw your messages... Thank you! I had mediation on Oct. 5th. Just signed the marital settlement agreement and mailed to my attorney, so the judge should finalize things within the next couple of weeks! Whoo hoo! Praise the Lord!
I am moving to my new place with the dogs and cat. Renting for awhile... looking forward to relaxing without any major house responsibilities! I have a sinus infection... Can't believe I am just now getting sick... I'm doing great though... looking forward to a bright new future! I am thankful everyday for all of you and your support when I needed it the most in those dark days. I hope all of you are doing well! Any new updates?
Hello everyone!!!! I just logged in today and saw your messages... Thank you! I had mediation on Oct. 5th. Just signed the marital settlement agreement and mailed to my attorney, so the judge should finalize things within the next couple of weeks! Whoo hoo! Praise the Lord!
I am moving to my new place with the dogs and cat. Renting for awhile... looking forward to relaxing without any major house responsibilities! I have a sinus infection... Can't believe I am just now getting sick... I'm doing great though... looking forward to a bright new future! I am thankful everyday for all of you and your support when I needed it the most in those dark days. I hope all of you are doing well! Any new updates?
Thanks for the update and glad you're doing so well.
Are you still at your job? How has the NC been with your STXWH?
I would love to hear how you found yourself and got to this strong place. You really do sound great. What does your bright new future look like? I hope you check in more. Have a great day.
It is clear to me she doesn't know what she is doing. 
Apparently sneaking around with one of the mothers was not breaking any ethical principles.
I know it is anxiety provoking NOW, but doing this will alleviate enormous anxiety in the FUTURE. It is short term anxiety for long term PEACE. Versus short term anxiety for long term anxiety if you don't do this. This way you get PEACE one way or the other. With him or without him. But I STRONGLY PREDICT it will be with him. You just have to show him you are serious! And I know you can do it! You are a strong, determined woman... 
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husband is fully capable of "saving the marriage". 