I had been unhappy in my marraige for a long time. We never did anything together my wife was always complaining how she was tired of cooking diner, taking care of the kids etc. She was always stressed out about the usual everyday demands. I would come home and try to give her a kiss or a hug and she would not be interested. Our marraige was more work then going to work its self. I would ask her if she wanted to go out or do something but she was always to tierd or just didn't want to. Then she would complain how we didn't do anything. I love to be with my kids but i didn't want to be home. it was bruteal she never paid any attention to me and she was always stressed. I did all the dishes all the time I did my own laundry and everyone elses when i could. The house was always a disaster and my days off I always cleaned. She was never affectionate if I never kissed or hugged her we never have. We would go months without being intimate regularly. I was tired of a dead marraige. I thought about leaving for probably two years.
Then I started talking to one of my associates a female. This was probably about November. We would talk alot at work in the beginning. Then we started texting and talking on the phone a lot. One night we went out as friends and played pool for a little while. My wife found out and was pissed. Rightfully so i shouldn't have been talking to a female as much as I was. I didn't think it was that big of a deal. Then it was about Thanksgiving and her family started getting involved. So I asked my wife if we could stay home for Thanksgiving so we could spend time together with our kids. I told her I did not want to go to her parents house and be around them. My wife said that she could not stay home that she needed to go to her parents for Thanksgiving or her mom would be very upset. I told her that i would not go to her parents. I begged her to stay home so we could have Thanksgiving as a family but she still insisted on going. I stayed home alone. It was one of the worst days of my life I didn't even eat. It showed me her dedication to me and our marraige!!!
Through December I continued to talked to my female friend at work on and off. I was trying to see if their was anything left of my marraige and make it a good Christmas for the kids. going into January things at home werent any better. My wife wanted me out of the house. I then meet my female friend from work and talked about what was going on. My wife was pissed but I figured she wants me out so things are over for my marraige it doesn't matter anyway. I never had any kind of physical contact with her at this point. The next day I called a good friend who gave me his condo to stay at because I had no where to go. Then i went back to my house to find all the locks on the doors had been changed and all my stuff was in bags in the garage. that weekend I met up with my female friend and we went to my friends condo and we ended up hving sex. My marraige was over she wanted me out so I thought it didn't matter. My affair went on for a month. I ended the relationship because I missed my family so bad.That was on March 5th. I had come to relize that i did love my wife and I wanted our marraige to be great. I don't want it to be what it was i want it to be great!!!! I realize that i went about everything the wrong way. I should have figured out if my marraige was really over before I got involved with someone else. I never should have hurt my wife the way I did. I tryed taking the easy way out and I hurt a lot of really great people by doing so. My wife has gave me a list of whats important to her and things I neeed to do to help us get through this burden I have put on our marraige. I am all most done with it but she still struggles with the pain and I under stand its going to take time but I want my family back! I am still in my buddies condo lonely as can be and it is so painful being away from them. How can I help my wife get past this and rebuild my marraige and make it great like I know it can be? please help me!!!!

Does your wife post on this site? What is her name?

If you could edit this to add paragraphs, it would help a lot and you would get more response. Thanks.

I had been unhappy in my marraige for a long time. We never did anything together my wife was always complaining how she was tired of cooking diner, taking care of the kids etc. She was always stressed out about the usual everyday demands. I would come home and try to give her a kiss or a hug and she would not be interested. Our marraige was more work then going to work its self. I would ask her if she wanted to go out or do something but she was always to tierd or just didn't want to. Then she would complain how we didn't do anything. I love to be with my kids but i didn't want to be home. it was bruteal she never paid any attention to me and she was always stressed. I did all the dishes all the time I did my own laundry and everyone elses when i could. The house was always a disaster and my days off I always cleaned. She was never affectionate if I never kissed or hugged her we never have. We would go months without being intimate regularly. I was tired of a dead marraige. I thought about leaving for probably two years.

Then I started talking to one of my associates a female. This was probably about November. We would talk alot at work in the beginning. Then we started texting and talking on the phone a lot. One night we went out as friends and played pool for a little while. My wife found out and was pissed. Rightfully so i shouldn't have been talking to a female as much as I was. I didn't think it was that big of a deal. Then it was about Thanksgiving and her family started getting involved. So I asked my wife if we could stay home for Thanksgiving so we could spend time together with our kids. I told her I did not want to go to her parents house and be around them. My wife said that she could not stay home that she needed to go to her parents for Thanksgiving or her mom would be very upset. I told her that i would not go to her parents. I begged her to stay home so we could have Thanksgiving as a family but she still insisted on going. I stayed home alone. It was one of the worst days of my life I didn't even eat. It showed me her dedication to me and our marraige!!!

Through December I continued to talked to my female friend at work on and off. I was trying to see if their was anything left of my marraige and make it a good Christmas for the kids. going into January things at home werent any better. My wife wanted me out of the house. I then meet my female friend from work and talked about what was going on. My wife was pissed but I figured she wants me out so things are over for my marraige it doesn't matter anyway. I never had any kind of physical contact with her at this point. The next day I called a good friend who gave me his condo to stay at because I had no where to go. Then i went back to my house to find all the locks on the doors had been changed and all my stuff was in bags in the garage. that weekend I met up with my female friend and we went to my friends condo and we ended up hving sex. My marraige was over she wanted me out so I thought it didn't matter. My affair went on for a month. I ended the relationship because I missed my family so bad.That was on March 5th. I had come to relize that i did love my wife and I wanted our marraige to be great. I don't want it to be what it was i want it to be great!!!! I realize that i went about everything the wrong way. I should have figured out if my marraige was really over before I got involved with someone else. I never should have hurt my wife the way I did. I tryed taking the easy way out and I hurt a lot of really great people by doing so.

My wife has gave me a list of whats important to her and things I neeed to do to help us get through this burden I have put on our marraige. I am all most done with it but she still struggles with the pain and I under stand its going to take time but I want my family back! I am still in my buddies condo lonely as can be and it is so painful being away from them. How can I help my wife get past this and rebuild my marraige and make it great like I know it can be? please help me!!!!

Kiss. The first thing you will have to do is quit that job and commit to no contact for life with OW.

Then HANDWRITE a NCL (no contact letter) to OW and give to your BW to approve and mail to the OW. Here is what the letter should say:



OW,

The relationship I had with you was thoughtless and cruel. It hurt many people, particularly my spouse, who did not deserve to be treated that way. I am committed to my marriage and determined to make up for all the hurt I've caused my family.

Because of the terrible offense to my spouse and the damage I have done to our marriage, I am permanently ending all contact with you. Please respect my wish to regain my integrity, and to heal my family. Please also respect my wish that you not attempt to contact me in any way at any time.

My spouse has all the details of our relationship and she will also be told of any attempts at contact.

Sincerely,
kss


These are your first steps. Are you willing to quit that job? I don't think your BW will have any interest in taking you back until you can do at least that.

I also see many justifications for your behaviour that all point to your wife. Stop that. You had an affair because YOU CHOSE to have an affair.

Why couldn't you go and have a Thanksgiving Meal "as a family" at her parents? It sounds like you didn't want to face the consequences of your own behaviour because her family was getting involved.

This is the stuff that will only anger your BW and make her more determined to divorce you.

You need to start taking responsibility for your choices in life.

Do you have the book Surviving an Affair?

OK, I am new to this board and have been reading the threads for several weeks now learning to deal with some of my own marriage issues so I am not an expert by any means, but really? I just don't know why more of the vets haven't called you out on this nonsense. Do you really want help saving your marriage? If so why haven't you replied to pokerface?

How long have you been married? How many children? What are their ages?

2wanda. First time posters often do not get many posts until they come back after their initial post. It is not uncommon for a poster to run after their first post when they see what is really required in recovery.

I think Kiss may have been looking for a forum to validate him and did not find it here. No he does not seem to be serious.

Are you going to start a thread of your own? Welcome.

Thank you for the welcome, pf. I just may.

We have four kids two are hers previously and we have two together. A 5 year old boy and a 7 year old girl. I have changed locations and I have already wrote the letter.

Ok. You are back. When did you write the letter and what did you say? Did you give it to your BW to mail? I'm asking because if the letter was not worded correctly...it will only anger your BW.

Who has the affair been exposed to? Is OW married?

Are you familiar with EP (extra-ordinary precautions)?

Are you serious about trying to save this?

If you're serious, we can help you. It will require time and commitment on your part, and a willingness to make fundamental changes in the way you've lived your life. In return, you have the chance for a M that is more wonderful than you ever dreamed of.

As part of your reading, feel free to read my story. There is plenty to learn from how my then-WH responded at first, during our false recovery, and the change when he was really serious about saving our family.

my wife is on this thing and she told me what the letter should say. I gave it to her. Everyone knowshat happened. yes I am familiar with the EP and I am very serious about this.

Which other EP's have you met? They all need to be done, in order to be effective.

It's great that you want your wife back. It's also going to require hard work and focus. I'm a former wayward wife so I recognize the stuff in your first post about how unhappy you were in your marriage, and how many needs of yours were going unmet.

It's time to put that aside and focus on the damage YOU'VE created in your marriage by having an affair. Playing the victim and acting like somehow you were forced into an affair because of terrible unhappiness is not going to fly and it's not in your best interest.

The path back to your marriage will require you to wake up see how entitled you are to think you had an excuse to go get your rocks off and betray your wife and family in doing so.

What you've done is damaging in a way you can't possibly understand yet but it's time to start waking up. What are you willing to do to make this up to your wife, your kids and your families? Put aside whatever you think has gone wrong for YOU and focus on others.

I don't see much remorse in you. Are you here and willing to get to work because you might have a shot if you can take the focus off your selfishness and your justifications long enough to see how much harm you've caused. Address that now and start putting in place the conditions that will protect you from your own bad behavior from here on out.

I say this as one who's walked this path. It's not easy to let go of the story you created to help justify your selfishness but it is absolutely vital and if you can't do it, this isn't going to work.

Do you mean your wife has been on this site? Is she posting here?

kiss, if your wife has asked you to come here for help, then why don't you stick around and have a dialog with us... if you are serious.

A truly remorseful WS will do whatever it takes.

MB has a proven plan to help earn back the trust and rebuild the romantic love. It works...but you have to become an active participant.

neak, I have given my wife access to my cell phone records and bank account info. I do not have any contact with the other female. Can you give me more examples of your EP's to assist me.

Zibbles,
I do realize now what you said about my post. I do realize the aweful things I have done to my wife and family. I think about the pain I have caused her and the burden I carry is very heavy. I think about it constantly and cry several times a day. I miss my family miserably. I have been trying to be with my wife every second I can and when we are together it is great. Of course we have our ups and downs as she has a tough time dealing with it. All I want to do is be with her and hold her. I believe that she is unsure if she wants to be with me. I feel like she is o.k. with seeing each other just a couple days a week at best. She says all the time she loves me but I dont believe it. She has made little attempt to want to be with me and I feel that I am an inconveniance at this point. How did you recover your marraige and how did you get through the beginning pains and start to rebuild?

pokerface,
sorry for not responding. I'm not a big computer person and I have never used anythig like this at all. The only thing I do on line is Ebay. I am commiting to checking in at least once a day!! The reason I did not go to Thanksgiving with my wife is because her parents house is very crazy and their is a lot of negativity their. I wanted to have a quite Thanksgiving and be able to do things with my kids. My inlaws house is very tight and not a lot to do. I really wanted time to cook and be with my wife to try to enjoy each others company instead of wondering how long until we could leave. I love my wife and am so pissed at my self that it took me screwing up to realize it.

"The reason I did not go to Thanksgiving with my wife is because her parents house is very crazy and their is a lot of negativity their" Would you care to explain? What type of negativity? Or was it actually that you knew that they knew and certainly did not approve, so it is actually that you were ashamed and embarrassed to face them that you did not want to go?

No it wasnt anything like that their was nothing going on at that time. I had conversations with this other female coworker but nothing was going on we just had a lot of issues at the time and we had no conversation for almost a month. Her parents house is tight the living room is 10x15 and seven people live their already. so when we go their with our for kids and her brothers girl friend is their their is no were to sit and just not a comfortable setting. Her mother I believe has always been a very negative affect on my wife as she is not a positive person. Her sister inlaw is bipoller and I dont believe I have ever seen her andher husband every really have a conversation in the 14 years I have known them. Just a lot of tension all the time.

Lots of homes are crowded on hoildays, especially when big families are involved. What makes you feel that your mother in law has a negative effect on your wife? How so? Would it have been okay if the family had come to your house for the holiday?

You said your wife had given you a list. What was on the list and how many have you completed?

That's my question, too. What exactly has your BW already asked of you? Please do not omit anything.

Once we have that, we can figure out if there are other areas still needing to be addressed.

Kiss. Here is what you said in your first post about not wanting to go to Thanksgiving:

Then you changed it to this:




Why not just admit that you were not ready to face your BW family? Are you ready now?

Owning up to your actions and facing them will go far with your BW. Have you thought about apologizing to her parents for cheating on their daughter...with no if, and, or but in your apology?

Hey kiss (keep it simple stupid or the band?)

When was the last time you talked to OW?

my mother in law is all ways negative she never has anything good to say about anyone. She is always talking badly about everyone. From her family,co-workers, her daughter in law, even her own husband. No I wanted it to just be us. We really could have used the time to spend with each other and our kids

Kiss, what is your wife requiring of you in order to recover your marriage? What have you done so far? You say you 'changed locations' in your job. Is there even a remote possibility that you can have contact with OW in your current location?

Please respond to the other poster regarding the NC letter. What, exactly, did it say? Did your wife see it, approve of it, and mail it? Or did you just tell her that you had done it?

Is OW married?

Where are you currently living?

By "remote possibility of contact", I would also include a company-wide email that is sent to both of you. You don't even need to see her name on a list, as that will trigger those portions of your mind connected with your adultery.

I find it hard to believe you could be in a far enough part of the company to really be sure of NC.

I have all the respect in the world for my father in law. I do not want any contact with my mother in law now or ever. I have been thinking about taking my father in law out to lunch to talk. But im just not ready yet. I have a lot of doubts about whats going to happen with my wife.

Its kiss the band. The last time I talked to the other woman was on march 5th.

my wifes list:
immediate things to do:
1 change cell# or block other womans calls
DONE blocked calls
2 she wanted a copy of the keys to my car and condo
DONE gave her copies of both
3 give her account # and online access to bank account
DONE
4 allow her custody of kids
NO CHANCE IN HELL if we are trying to work on this and trying to work things out you do not go to court. She is doing this to be able to control the kids over me. I work different days of the week and weekends and my hours change every day. so if the court gives me set days then I am screwed and she knows that.

to start on:
1 owning my choices to myself, wife, kids and family
STARTED I have owned up to my wife and my family know what has happened I have not talked to my step kids or her family. I don't want to talk to my step kids about it and build up a false hope when I have no idea where this is going.
2 appologize for the affair to the same people
NOT DONE YET
3 begin independent counseling
DONE I go weekly started 3 weeks ago
4 participate in marraige counceling
still working on we are going to see my counseler together on 4/12
5 attend church
done we started going as a family
6 STD test
going this week

This is to follow the no contact letter that she told me what to write that I gave her and she mailed out.

there was an addition list of forever things that would help her deal with trust and feeling security.

The other woman is not married.

THANKS, KISS

Not rreally happy right now actually really pissed. I have been trying to be with my wife every second we can be together. I text her constantly and I feel that things have been great. She let me in her house last night. Witch was the first time we have been spending a lot of time shopping and just hanging out at my buddies condo. But last night we cuddled on the coach for a while then I layed in our bed and held her until about 4:30 am nothing sexual I just held her allnight it was great. Then this morning (Easter sunday) she came over early with the kids. I made breakfast and we just had fun. Then I had to work. She came over later on around 9:30. We just sat on the coach watching T.V. and I held her and rubbed her feet. Then I asked her what she had going on this week. She brings up that she has to go to court!!!! We have a child support hearing on Thursday. I was pissed (still am) How is going to court for child support and custady us working on getting back together. To me it means that its over. I give her $600 every two weeks and I have been. This is a huge deal to me. I do not feel this is a positive thing at all and have thought about us being done. To me this is a power move on her part. She will be able to have power of controling the kids over me. I work different days every week and my hours change everyday. So if the courts say that I get the kids on Tuesdays and Sundays like how she wants I will never see my kids and she can tell me tough [censored]! then what? I have no idea how she thinks this is a good thing at the point we are now! I look at this as a real kick in the nuts. I really don't think I can get past this if we go to court. It shows no real commitment on working thing out on her end.

**edit**

Listen up, man. You had an affair and acted completely unremorseful for quite some time. You let your wife move away and lifted hardly a finger to work things out.

How do I know this? I followed her story on here.

It's going to take time to win her trust back. This is not a hostile move, it's a smart one on her part since you've proved recently that you are unreliable, uneven and not fit to be in charge of your family.

I say be agreeable and put your own fears aside. focus on your wife and children and accommodating their needs. You have A LOT to make up for and if this manouver is enough to spook you away from recovery then I have to question your stamina.

You caused all of this. Suck it up and make it right or let the poor woman move on in peace.

**edit**

Kiss is a fogged out wayward husband who's caused tons of drama and false hope for his wife. Even his attitude here is one of entitlement and 'poor me.'

He's shown very little remorse, in fact he seems inconvenienced by what it's going to take to recover.

I had an affair too, and sometimes the wayward needs some tough love to snap out of the selfishness and get to work. THAT is the support I'm offering him and I hope he will take it.

Your BW is very weak. Since she is not willing to raise the bar very high for you, it's up to you to raise it high for yourself. For starters, even though she said change numbers *or* block the OW, in reality you should do both. An OW with an IQ above plankton can figure out to call from other phones that aren't blocked.

Your resentment chip on your shoulder is almost overwhelming. In all honesty, this comes from BW letting you have contact with her before you're totally ready. Your remorse is underwhelming, and about all that comes through is 'poor me'. Nope, doesn't work.

Spend a good chunk of time learning what horrors you put your BW through, and what agony you bear full responsibility for. Let some remorse develop. You're not repentant yet, or your whole attitude would be different than it is.

You can put your family back together. It will involve strength, consistency, and a true sorrow for what you have done to them - not just the parts that continue to affect you. There's plenty of hope for your M, but one of you will have to be strong. Your BW has made clear that it's not going to be her. That leaves....

...you.

A warning to posters that the purpose of this forum is to help posters with Marriage Builders concepts. It is not to promote personal philosophies. Please familiarize yourself with MB before posting!

**edit**

Moderators note: familiarize yourself with our TOS and the MB program before posting to those in need. This forum is not the platform for sharing personal philosophies.

**edit**

Do not disrupt this thread again!

Hmmm, someone seems intent on breaking my "zapped" record!

IIP: I tried to find your story, to assist you in your evident mis-understanding of the MB principles and what we try to do here. Would you consider initiating a thread to help us help you?

Where do you want this marriage to go?

Kiss,

You asked me earlier on this thread how I recovered my marriage. We're still working on it. Every day. And what I've realized is that there's no fix, just more focus on meeting my husband's needs and applying radical honesty and POJA. And limiting lovebusters, like independent behavior, disrespectful judgments and angry outbursts. We are falling back in love again slowly because we are working the program.

I also shored up my non existent boundaries around men. No more friendships with men...no internet interaction, etc. I want to be in love with my husband and I want my kids to grow up feeling safe, loved and protected in a real family. This is more important to me then my petty gripes about my husband and my sad need to be admired by some loser dude willing to give it to a married woman.

We're a work in progress but one thing that helped me a lot was realizing I went into the marriage with a renter's attitude. I wanted things to be easy and did the least amount I could get away with to keep things going. I built up a lot of resentment as I drifted from my husband when our kids were small and things were stressful. I started building a case against my spouse about why I 'deserved' more. Disgusting.

My EA was pathetic and it blew up when the OM found a local woman to shag and then told me all about his new 'soul mate.' The horror I felt when I realized I was just some toy for a dude who was looking for entertainment snapped me right out of my fog.

I was lucky it played out this way because I was very vulnerable to 'falling in love' with him and ending up in his bed and babbling something about it being fate that we ended up together.

When wayward, WE DON'T THINK STRAIGHT. We think it's all about us and our needs. If you seriously want to recover, you better get your head in the game because it's hard work. It gets more and more effortless as the feelings of love grow and that is the blessing here.

You can do this but first you have got to see your part in this. Stop feeling sorry for yourself. It's something you will someday look back on and be horrified by (hopefully). Stop being angry that these changes are happening to you and do what you can to make things right. You have a chance to be the husband you promised to be on your wedding day but it can't begin until you stop seeing yourself as the victim here.

I'm pulling for you.

Oh, heck - there's no WAY I'm gonna let THAT happen! Go ahead, NG, say one word that's TOS-able - I am totally ready to notify. I've got your back, buddy!

Yes, IIP, do tell. We would be interested to hear your story.

You somehow expect her to drop her legal action???

Really???

You have demonstrated what a great husband you can be for what??? several hours??? maybe a few days???

and this equals what???

Trust ME???

NOT A CHANCE!


Until you can demonstrate that you are safe and willing to do whatever it takes... She needs the insurance and safety the courts have to offer.

Please realize that recovery is a marathon, not a 50 yard dash. It's going to take a great deal of actions and consistency on your part over the long haul!

So get over yourself and get back to work on meeting her requirements, OK!

Kiss, there is only one way that I would suggest that your BW consider dropping the court dates, and that would be if you would agree to everything she is asking for regarding child visitation, and child support, in writing, legally binding, and in her favour.

Why should you do this? Because you betrayed her, and you destroyed your marriage with your actions.

Now, how can we help you fix your marriage?

Have you read everything you can on this site?

Have you did EVERYTHING to ensure NC with this OW? Have you ensured that you are safe for your BW by insisting on EPs YOURSELF and working towards having an affair proof marriage?

Your silence makes me wonder just how serious you are about saving your M.

When you're serious, you leave no stone unturned. You do anything and everything that might help, including talking to a bunch of strangers on an internet board, who claim they are able to help you.

We claim it, because we ARE able to help you.

I understand now why we had to go to court for the child support hearing. It was so she had reassurance. We had our hearing yesterday and we agreed on everything. I also went for the STD test she wanted. We spent the entire day together. It was painful at times but it was a great day. I truely love my wife and im willing to do what ever it takes to win her back.

zibbles,
Thanks for your story it deffinity helps. I am trying to see every situation from her side and give her the reassurance and stability that she needs. I am trying to help rebuild our friendship,trust and marriage.
We have been trying to focus on time with the kids but what is different now is that I feel that we are both so focused on each others needs. I feel that this is something that has been nonexistant for a long time if ever in our marriage before.
I am truely in love with my wife and willing to do what ever it takes. She is a remarkable woman and I hate being away from her. I now charish every moment with her. When im away from her im filled with overwhelming anticipation of seeing her and holding her the next time.

Thanks again for your help and support.
KISS

Really Kiss? Such as...what exactly?

Would you list?

Ens? And exactly how you are meeting them? And, what are your wife's requirements to recover your M?

Your words are nice...what are you doing?

Kiss, you do not try. You do. Period. List what you're doing right now.

I apologize if I've mentioned this before, but if you read the first few pages of my story, linked below, you will see very clearly the difference between AJ before, and AJ after.

During the first, failed recovery, he simply wanted his own pain to stop.

During the second, successful recovery, he hit rock bottom, truly repented, and it changed every thought pattern and every action. He also cared more about healing my pain that he had caused, than whatever he suffered at his own hand.

You're not there yet, but I have lots of hope that you'll get there in the future.

You dont win her back, you EARN her back. Words are nice but they are hollow and mean nothing. Actions, EP and just compensation.

Good job Kiss. You are starting to take some small steps. I want to emphasize small because I still get the sense that you have no idea of how much destruction you've caused here. It's very painful to face that. VERY PAINFUL.

You're going to have to make major adjustments in your lifestyle, the way you think about your marriage and family and in how you see yourself. It's not going to be easy and you've barely scratched the surface.

Show us what you've working on here. What extraordinary precautions are you putting into place? How are you offering your wife just compensation?

Healing from infidelity and creating a better marriage is not like a light switch that you just turn on and assume it's all better. It's a whole new way of being...a new way of thinking and behaving and it takes time and dedication.

I get the feeling you don't really get it yet but I am glad to see you trying. KEEP GOING and keep an eye on the part of you that wants to feel sorry for yourself as this is completely and totally unacceptable.

Yesterday I went to marriage counseling with my wife and she continues to say that we arent going anywhere because I havent been able to go on this web site and post. I have been doing everything we she asks other wise. I am not one to read or use a computer much. She says how important this is to her so I do try to put something on here but half the time I have no idea what to post. Should this be like face book am I supposed to use this like a diary? Not that I even use face book or even know really what it is. I try to make her feel secure constantly and im always trying to spend time with her and make her happy.
Everything else seems to be very good. We have been going to the movies,spending family time together and having fun. I just don't know how to continue to move forward? I have no problem going to see a counseler and talking about our issues and what we are working on. I am willing to do anything to make her feel secure and I want to build her trust back in me.

Your wife probably wants you to answer the questions that people post to you on here.
Can you drop the MC and call the coaching center here?

It may be more per session, but you'll need way fewer appointments to accomplish the same thing.

And it will be much more effective.

If your BW tells you that you posting on MB is important to her, make every effort.

Have you read all of the info on this site? Have you read SAA, HNHN, LB? Do you have any questions on how to help your BW?

How many hours of UA time are you two getting every week? How is RH, POJA, etc going? HAve you filled out the EN questionnaire?

Traditional marriage counseling is flawed, especially when it comes to saving a marriage from adultery. MB is your BEST chance at saving your marriage, it you're willing to do the work.

Can you call the radio show and talk to Dr. H? Your wife had her question answered on the show on Friday. How about you write to Dr. H because he is always looking for the other spouse to give their side? Can you drop the MC and call the coaching center?

Here are some good reads for you.
Requirements for Recovery from An Affair
EP's

Brainhurts,
when you said drop the MC what are you talking about? I dont understand.

Thanks,
KISS

To call the MB coaching center Coaching center

At the very least use this by Dr. Harley How to find a good marriage counselor

What about you, yourself write the radio show? I know your wife's question was on Fridays show.

kiss- abbreviations are here:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1984040#Post1984040

MC- marriage counseling

Scotland,
sorry for my ignorance but I have no idea what all of your abbreviations mean. Can you please give me a little more direction.
We have seen two other counselers before. It wasn't very helpful. The counselore are seeing now I think is very good. She asks questions and gets us to talk. I don't think that the marriage counciling will help totally deal with my affair. I don't disagree with you on that. But I do believe that she helps us talk about it and she is helping us deal with all the issues we had prior and she has helped me see what I need to improve on to make it a lot better.
We have been spending a lot of time together. I would say about 20 hours a week at least. We stay at each others place twice a week. I miss holding her every night. It is tough I have never lived alone before in my life. The past three months have been tough. I hate being away from her.

Thanks,
KISS

Hi Kiss,

I'm encouraged to see you're still posting.

I'm curious, and have a few questions for you.

What kind of marriage do you want?

What kind of a marriage does your wife deserve?

What kind of marriage do you deserve?

herpapabear,

(MY WIFE READS ALL OF MY POSTS SO I FEEL THAT I HAVE TO WATCH WHAT I POST BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO UPSET HER OR MAKE HER MAD. I feel that me posting is more for her then me because I have to watch what I post and have to hold some of my feelings or thoughts back. So i'm not sure how she will feel about some of this.)
I want us to be best friends. I don't believe that marriage should just be something that you need to do or just another step in a persons life process. I want us to want to spend every second together. When we have to leave each other we are filled with anticipation for the next time that we can see each other. We have been talking about each others expectations of marriage.
My parents are best friends they never go anywhere without one another. Every time my mother has to go to the store my father takes her. They have always worked together. I am 35 and never seen my parents fight. People tell me all the time how cute my parents are and how great they are together.
My wife's parents are not like that. I don't think that they do that much together at all. It seems like my father in law does a lot to keep my mother in law from complaining. I don't see the closeness or joy of being together.
I just think that we come from two totally different situations. I don't believe that my wife wants to be like her parents. I just believe that some times she just forgets about what she really expects out of our marriage. I have done a very poor job the last couple of years of trying to get her and my self on track trying to making this the great marriage we both expect and deserve.
I know with all my heart this could be a great marriage one that people are jealous of and people wonder how do we have such a perfect marriage and friendship. We need to be focused and committed to putting 110% into each other and not becoming complacent. My wife is the greatest thing that has happened to me. I love her more then life its self. I want this to be the most amazing marriage ever we both deserve it.

THANKS,
KISS

Your BW needs to not read your posts. She can trust us to say what must be said, but until you're farther along, the two of you should not read each other's posts.

Kiss. Your BW needs to know that you "get it."

Recovery is a long road. Take all the help you can get from MB because we "get it" and the many good people here can point you in the right direction.

We have been there and MB saved our own marriages. We are still here because we want to pass it forward like others did for us.

If she is not reading your posts during early R, but sees you starting to defog and working the steps of R, she'll know you're getting it.

When she sees you are fully accountable for all time and money spent, and are not grudgingly willing but actually GLAD to have every area of your life open and transparent, she'll know you're getting it.

When she sees you making the effort to discover and effectively meet her EN's, she'll know you're getting it.

There are so many things you can do to make amends. You can never make it unhappen, but you can, by your actions, show that an A will never happen again.

Well, um, that was flowery and all, but you still haven't answered my questions. You danced around them!

I appreciate the analysis of your parents and In-laws marriages, but it's irrelevant to your marriage and to my questions.


This part though....

Very telling!

You admit that you're not willing to be honest about your thoughts and feelings.

My wife would have handed me my a$$ for such a statement. I'm betting your wife will be none to happy either.


If you are on the forums for her, then the least you could do is prove it by being honest and transparent.

And for the record, my wife followed my posts very closely to make sure my words were lining up with my actions. And it was a very wise thing for her to do!
Good grief man, what do you think you can say on this forum that is any worse than betraying your wife IRL with another woman?? <shaking my head>

An excellent radio clip from Dr. Harley on what a wayward husband needs to do to follow a path and to help his wife recover from his affair, following EP's and transparency.

Radio clip on what a WH needs to do to help his wife recover from his affair

BrainHurts, I don't know if anybody has thanked you yet for going around posting all these radio clips, but THANK YOU! You are doing just what I always wished I could do.

You're welcome. I sometimes wonder if anyone is listening because there is such little response and the radio show is such an excellent tool to hear from the good Doctor himself.

Kiss,

Your wife say's you don't want to post anymore!

Giving up already?

This was one of your wife's simplest requirements and you're giving up already?

What's up with that?

I've thought the same thing as Markos, BrainHurts - great job! People are listening. Keep up the good work.

Same here. In fact I just listened to part 2 of 4 of one segment and can't find 3 and 4!

Good help you're offering Brain

Thanks MB warriors I appreciate it. TigerWes which segement is it and I can probably find it?

brainhurts,
I can't get the radio clip to play! Am I doing something wrong?

Thanks,
KISS

Radio clip by Dr. H saying what a WH should do if he's serious about recovery

Try again. Are you hitting the play button? Do you have speakers and volume on? Maybe plug in headphones?

For me, it not only plays, but it keeps looping till I turn it off.

Also watch this video by Dr. Harley.

Video:Infidelity:What Every Couple Needs to Know

Brainhurts,
I still can't get the clip to play but I have seen Dr. Harleys video. My wife and I watched it together about a month ago.

Thanks,
KISS

My wife isn't happy with me right now. She says that I have made comments that didn't make her happy. When I ask her what they were she doesn't really know what it was or what I said. Its so frustrating. Things seem to be going well as we have been spending a lot of time together and we have been getting a long great. We do have are moments but we are able to talk about them and continue to keep moving on. She is having a lot of doubt now and all of the sudden since yesterday afternoon she is making herself very distant from me. I have tried to give her space and not be on top of her then she says that im blowing her off.I feel like [censored] and im frustrated please help me!!! I need my wife more then anything. I can't lose her.

Please help,
KISS

You need to go to her and let her know you will do whatever it takes for as long as it takes to help heal her.

Let her tell you what she needs ... write down all her words ... then begin action immediately.

When and only when you are willing to do whatever it takes for as long as it takes to clean up the self inflicted cesspool you created can your marriage recover.

Get to work ... start making her list ASAP.

Have you called the coaching center yet? Is this not something that she said she needs from you?

Kiss, Have you read SAA? Have you learned from it?
Have you done any of these suggestions? I know your wife would want any of not all of these?

Even if you do everything right...... And that's a big if!

Your wife is going to be on a roller coaster ride.

It takes a great deal of work on your part, combined with patience and spending time together meeting each others EN's.

Distance is never the answer! Distance, space, whatever you want to call it, is a cop out and no more than an escape plan on your part. So eliminate that as a tool in your marital recovery, OK!

What books of Dr. Harley's do you have?

What books of Dr. Harley's have you read?

KISS, Here's the thing that's jumping out at me. The "need" rather than the love and desire to spend the rest of your life making things right, no matter what you get in return.

Your approach to recovery is very me-me-me oriented and not much about what is in it for her to take you back.

Where is your heart right now? trying to get back to the status quo?

That world is gone. Blown up. Obliterated by your repeated refusal to do anything about expelling the OW from your life and making things right before your wife had to take things to separation.

Now you want to get that world back. It's gone. I'm so sad for you. You can't get it back. It will never be back.

Acceptance is the answer to all your problems today. Accept that there is nothing in it for HER to take you back as you are right now, focused on KISS, KISS, KISS and not about her, her, her.

When you have reached that point of surrender, and acceptance of the damage you have done - the recognition that as a man, you have blown it with this woman you claim to need so badly. You have already lost her. Beyond recovery, if you retain any self-centeredness at all.

What can you do?

Surrender your pride. Surrender your expectations of her taking you back before you have proven that you are a changed man.

Tell us about those changes. Tell us what you are going to do differently tomorrow to fill her love bank without expectation of making any more withdrawals from that account.

Everything you have done, including breaking her Plan B request to work through an intermediary reeks of your disrespect that she has needs, and that you have bankrupted your lovebank with her.

So how will you change that? How will you change your character? Who will you be accountable to? HerPapaBear is one of the very best recovered waywards I know of who can guide you through that mine-field. And believe me, when he started posting here, I took exactly the same tactic with him as I have with you in this post. I didn't believe he was changed. He proved me wrong, not with defiance or belligerence or selfishness about how much he deserved another chance. He was changed.

Your responses to those who have cared enough to take the time to help you have not given me much hope yet that you "get it".

Your post that I quoted is just one example of why I'm concerned that you won't get it.

HerPapaBear,
I'm not trying to stay away from her. I try to be with her every moment I can. I just don't try to hold and kiss her because I can tell she is not interested. I expect her to be up and down emotionally. I feel that I have done a very good job of being compasionite and helping her through the emotionally rough times.

What are her top emotional needs?

to feel secure. She needs suppport and understanding. She needs to know that im doing what ever it takes for this to never happen again and for us to make this the great marraige that we both want and deserve.

My heart is in this 100 percent what ever it takes. I love my wife more then life its self. I will do anything she needs. I do not want our marriage to go back to the way it was. I want us to have the best marriage ever. I want us to be best friends.
I am very sorry for what I have done. I am ashamed by what I have done and all the pain that I have caused. I am constantly trying to make her feel secure and answer all of her questions when she has them.
I have changed. I have surrendered my self to my wife. I am commited to our wedding vows and willing to do what ever it takes.I'm willing to fight for my marriage and put 110 percent into everyday, every moment. My wife and kids come first not my career. I would change my job if my wife wanted me to. If she thought all the hours and weekends are to much. I would do anything.
I want her to call me out when im wrong or when she has even the smallest issue with anything I say or do.

THANKS,
KISS

Ok KISS,

We know what you want, but what ACTIONS have you done?

Call the coaching center?
Write the radio show?
Have you read SAA? What have you learned from it?

Please answer these questions.

Kiss,

Do you know what EN's are?

Do you know what Dr. Harley's love bank concept is?

Have you read any of Dr. Harley's books yet?

Quoted for emphasis

Some more wonderful radio clips with a BW and WH on what he has done to recover thier M. It talks about complete transparency, and precautions. He was a serial cheater.

Radio clip with a BW and her WH on steps to recovery
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4

HerPapaBear,
We went through our EN's last night together. She is looking for conversation, family support, affection, and recreational activities.

Yes I do know what Dr. Harley's love bank concept is.

I have not read any of Dr. Harley's books. I am trying to read how to help your spouse heal from your affair by Linda J. MacDonald. I hate reading but I am trying to get through this book.

We went through the EN's questionnaire. We did it based on our relationship before the affair started. Then we ranked how things have been the last two months. It really helped us see where we were lacking before and how things have changed since the affair ended. It just shows how things can improve when we focus on each other and meeting each others EN's needs.

Have you phoned the coaching center? They can help you with everything.

BrainHurts,
I have meet almost all of my wifes requirements on her list. The only one that I haven't done is to apologize to her family. Witch is something I don't believe I will ever do because of their involvement and continued interferance and disrespect to my wife.
We go to marraige counceling weekly. This week we filled out the emotional needs questionnaire and it was a great learning experiance I think for both of us. We had a good time doing it.
We have been spending as much time as possible with each other and when ever she has questions about anything that has happened I answer her 100 percent honestly and we discuss it.
We talk or text constantly through out the day. Witch is something we haven't done in probably 4-5 years.

I have not called the coaching center or wrote the radio show. I have not read SAA. I take it thats a book by Dr.Harvey.

I am reading How to help your spouse heal from your affair by Linda J. MacDonald.

No I have not called the coaching center. We are going to sit down and look at purchasing some of the work books this evening. Any recommendations? Have you used any of these tools?

Any feedback would be appreciated.

THANKS,
KISS

The books are all great.

The BEST thing you can do is call the coaching center, and get the online course. Even calling the coaching center once will benefit you immensely.

It's a huge red flag to me that you have chosen NOT to apologize to your In-Laws. If your BW asks this of you, you should be doing EVERYTHING you can to get this done. I thought that calling the Harleys was also a requirement.

Have you changed your email addresses and phone numbers?

My kids say the same thing all the time. "I shouldn't have to apologize - my sister hit me first!" "Well, I shouldn't have to apologize either - my brother hit me harder, and more times, too!" I expect them to eventually grow out of that lame excuse, and I hope you will, too.

You can't apologize for your IL's behavior.

You need to apologize for your own.

Very. Well. Said.

I heard that verbatim this morning from our oldest.

If your wife made this apology one of HER requirements, aren't YOU being DISRESPECTFUL by refusing?

You're not making sense.
If respect for your wife is high on your priorities for recovery, then you are a huge hypocrite when you ignore/refuse to apologize to her parents. Stop disrespecting your wife.
Plus, you are flat out wrong

kiss,

What is your excuse for not calling the coaching center?

Apologizing to your in-laws?

A truly repentant spouse does WHATEVER it takes.

Actions speak louder than words!!!

Shame on you kiss.

Kiss,

I have been begging my H to let me apologize to his parents faces. Even though my mother in law has said and done some horrible things to me in front of my children.

This rift is hurting your wife and your family. Be the bigger person and apologize. It's time to start healing your family. I say apologize but ask for respect in that they stay out of your families business and allow you to heal.

fifteenyears,

I took a lot of abuse and bad mouthing from my mother in law. One night I went to my house to see my kids. She was verbally bashing me in front of my kids and won't let them see me they were standing their crying and scared. After a good twenty minutes of not saying anything back I told her how negative she was always bashing people.

Then one day I went to the house where my wife is staying and she was there again. She came out raging. While I was trying to talk to my wife she kept yelling how she was going to call the cops. Then she was on the phone with someone just standing there talking crap constantly.

I have moved on and have no cares about what she thinks of me. I have no need for her to be part of my life. It doesn't bother me one bit.

She will randomly text my wife bashing her and making her feel like crap. I want my wife to have a relationship with her family. I believe that that should be the most importnt thing. Instead of getting support from her mother she continues to get shots regularly.

She received an email from her mother a couple of days ago saying that I better not waste my time trying to appologize that the family is not interested. I feel that if I made an attempt to talk to them it would be very ugly and make the situation worse.

My wife is suffering due to all the hate emails and text messages. My wifes birthday is Tuesday and she was supposed to go to her parents for Birthday cake. Due to that email she received she doesn't want to go. It really sucks I want to help my wife through this but I feel that if I tried to talk to them I know it will not go well. I believe that my mother in law is trying to make my wife decide between us. I feel that is such a sh***y thing to due. She has no idea what she is putting her daughter through. I hope she can take a step back and look at what she is doing and the pain she is causing!!!
Thats what helped me see the wrong I was doing.

THANKS,
KISS

So even though it's what your wife wants?

Let's see what Dr. Harley says because she will be on the show today.

You REALLY don't know what you're doing, do you?

"You are ALWAYS bashing people."
A pretty piss-poor and inflammatory response.
An unnecessary and counter-productive response.
You may think calling MIL on her faults gave you the upper hand, but I assure you, it did zero to improve YOUR life.
It did zero to demonstrate adult coping skills to your children.

You need to learn some things.

How might you otherwise respond to an out-of-control adult person?
By taking yourself out of the game.

"I can see how my being here is upsetting you.
I will go now. I hope you feel calmer soon. Take care."


You lack ninja-people skills when you are feeling under attack.
That is something I recommend you deliberately work on.

Pepperband,

So I should have just stould there and let her bash me in front of my kids and let her yell and torcher my hids!!!!!! I should have just stood there and smiled. As I was locked outside my house with my kids screaming and crying to see me!!!!! U must not have kids or feeling because that crushed me.

THANKS FOR YOUR CONCERN AND GREAT FEEDBACK.

KISS

Kiss, have you called the coaching center yet?

I suggest you read what Pep has just posted to you and analyze it. Read it a few times. See where you can correct something about yourself.

Also, instead of worrying about how your MIL will react to your apology, just do it because it's the right thing to do.

No, Pep didn't suggest you just stand there and take it. She suggested that you calmly remove yourself from the situation to help your kids. How is staying, and engaging a raging adult helping remove the drama in your children's lives?

Brainhurts,
Just wanted to let you know that I just booked an appointment with Steve Harley for Tuesday at 10:30 AM.

Thanks for your constant helP. It is so appreciated

KISS

Now this makes me hopeful.

Scotland,

It is just so frustrating right now because this is not something we need now. She will not let go and stay out of it. She makes it personal. It's like her vs. me. We are trying to concentrate on us!!! We took our four kids to the Mets game the other day and on the way she is getting hammered by her sister in law and mother. My wife is suffering. I think the only way that I believe she will stop is if we seperate. I don't think she cares if her daughter is happy!!! as long as my mother in law gets what she wants.

nothing like added pressures and stress!!

Thanks,
KISS

100% the OPPOSITE of what I recommended you do.


100% the OPPOSITE what I recommended you do.



I recommend you control yourself and remove yourself from toxic situations/people as soon as possible.

BTW .... Your attack of me is another example of how your defensive communication style gets in your way of finding more advantageous solutions. Please, consider looking at how you respond quickly and in anger when you might not have to.

You'll live longer and better once you learn how to blow out your own fuse.

PS .... I come in peace !

Kiss, I hope that you are able to do as Pepperband suggests and remove yourself from these types of situations, effectively. It will help YOUR MARRIAGE, greatly.

Focusing on what your MIL and SIL are doing is NOT helping your marriage.

What are you doing today to make your wife feel safe with you? I am very pleased to see that you are going to be coaching with SH. What else can you do this weekend? How can you meet your BW's ENs this weekend? What can you do for HER?

Wait to go. Good job. Keep us posted. Ok?

If you really want to help your marriage and are doing this blog in hopes of recovery, I suggest you start telling the truth. It wasn't your house, it was the house your wife rented to get away from you (but you followed and banged on doors and windows until the cops had to be called the first time). This also happened after already being told by the cops days prior when you made a scene, to stay away. This all occured when your wife tried to implement Plan B and gave you specific instructions to go through a 2nd party to arrange the kid's visitation and to stay away from her/not speak to her. You didn't do this. You refused to do this. The kids were crying and screaming because you were screaming and banging on windows and doors demanding to be seen/heard. Please stop making yourself look like the victim. Her mother has done nothing but support her both emotionally and financially and you and your web of lies isn't helping. You brought this on yourself. YOU caused this. Stop placing blame off on to others.

This is a throwaway account so I apologize in advance, but I can't go on reading all this nonsense you keep writing. You didn't care about your relationship until you suddenly had no place to live. Then all of a sudden you're a changed man? I don't think so.

You need help. Serious help. Like I said, if you're trying to get help here, you better start being honest with the people that are actually trying to help you, for the sake of you and your marriage...

Well, this is interesting.
Who are you Sublimination?

Hmmm. Sounds like someone from the family perhaps? MIL has been reading his posts and that is the premise of RQ's call to Dr. Harley about her family wanting an apology from kiss.

You know what Dr. Harley said?

RQ's family needs to back off for now and stay out of it and let them work on the marrige.

Here are the clips.
Radio clip of RQ
Radio clip 2nd segment

Sounds like sublimation believes Kiss is just a pig that found some lipstick...

I was once a pig with lipstick myself.... During our false recovery!

When our REAL recovery began, I made amends to my MIL & FIL as well as all of our extended family & friends. I confessed the truth to everyone and owned my adultery, as well as owning all the pain I caused my wife, children & others. I No longer made anyone out to be the bad guy except myself.

I acknowledged the pain I created was all of my own doing!

I purposed to make no excuses!

I asked for forgiveness and accepted my consequences when it wasn't extended. No one owed me forgiveness after all I had done to their mommy, their daughter, their sister, their friend.

I figured out that all the anger toward me from her family was well deserved and it was of my own making..... I had to put on my big boy pants and man up! Knowing real recovery for all that were injured would take time.

So Kiss are you going to man up or be the wedge between your wife and her family? Are you going to pretend to be a victim of your own adulterous choices?

When you are so broken by all you said & did while you were wayward, we will be able to say your fog has lifted.

Kiss,

I still thank my In-Laws, and extended family and friends, for being my wife's life support system, while I was putting one knife after another in her back during my A....

Without them, she may not have survived the extent of damage I created.

Have you considered thanking all of the people that did the same for your own wife?

2 Very good posts by one of the best FWH's who continue to post on this board. Thank you HPB for all you do to help guide WS's to the path to becoming FWSs.

pepperband,

This is a family member that has obviously a bad memory. It was my house and they are obviously confused.

Its sad that they can't help but keep getting involved in my marriage and respect my wives wishes.

THANKS,
KISS

I'm so excited about today. It's my wife's Birthday and we have our call with the coaching center at 10:30. Today we aer going to spend the day together. Then tonight we are going out to dinner with the kids.

THANKS,
KISS

I'm pulling for you and RQ. Make this day all about her.

I always shudder when I see a WH post this......

Look closely at what you're saying.

Did you respect your wife?

Are you "respecting your wife's wishes" about extending an apology to these family members?

WS's that harbor grudges, resentments, etc..... are destined to remain foggy, for they refuse to see their part in creating all the pain. They still cling to the idea that if everyone would just stay out of their way and play the roles they are assigned, then all will be OK. They just don't see how many toes they step on throughout the day.

This was certainly true for me. Without my family, I would have at the very least ended up in the hospital, and very likely would not have R'd my M, either.

They were very protective of me, and justifiably so. It's amazing how things changed for the better once they saw AJ begin carrying out the actions of repentance.

There is just no end to the ridiculous lies you tell these people, is there? You wife is suffering because of the crap YOU did to her and you are not helping your recovery by continually making up this ridiculous nonsense and posting it on a public forum. This is why the family wants nothing to do with you and this is what is hurting her. Just stick to the problems between the two of you and stop trying to blame everyone else. Your wife has been twisting you arm for two months for that apology you are making every excuse not to make. Who would want it now? You're pathetic.

Pantsonfire, welcome! What is your story?

I am sad to see you name-calling. The poster on this thread is foggy, and has yet to show himself to be serious about recovery, but I don't think that attacking him and applying inflammatory adjectives will help him on the road to enlightenment.

I look forward to getting to know you better. Please feel free to start your own thread, if there's something we can assist you with.

Maybe another family member of RQs like the other poster who was upset also?

Neak- OK then, he is pathetically foggy. But don't tell him. He will say you are interferring.

Pants, it's helpful to you to introduce yourself by starting your own thead. Would you care to do this?

kiss, if pantsonfire is one of your wife's family members it doesn't sound like she is too impressed with your attitude. Is it true you are blaming her family?

I will tell you how I felt as a betrayed spouse after my husbands affair and I did not appreciate being placed in a position to have to choose between my family and my husband. Let's just hope after all the hell you have put this woman through that you are not causing problems with her family now. She has been through enough.

Why is her family still so angry with you and what are you doing to resolve it?

Melodylane,

oh yes. It is. No I don't blame them at all. They just can't help themselves from getting involved. I want my wife to be involved with her family but they continue to push her away. It's sad and upsets her constantly.

THANKS,
KISS

Kiss - please take her name out of the above post.

I her family for what they did!

They were trying to keep evil at bay!

When we become waywards, we become evil.

By this point, you should have no problem admitting how evil you actually were. If not, then your wife needs to run like he11!

You need to shift out of this mode that your in-laws did something wrong and accept that it was ALL your own doing.

LISTEN, did they commit adultery?

Did they destroy your wife?

Of course not! They were the ones that scraped her off the floor where you left her and helped restore her to some semblance of sanity amidst the distress that you caused. They were the rescuers. So let's drop this facade of being the victim. The reality is you didn't deserve to see your children, so knock this sh** off! OK!





You should move into the house she feels safe in. The memories of your old house coupled with the financial distress is far more than she can handle and still be willing to recover with you. You need to accept this. You need to man up and become enthusiastic about being a husband and a father again. OK?

What you should do about what? This is supposed to be some excuse for not moving into the house with your wife? That tells me you haven't quit your affair with your skankyho. I can't think of any other reason you wouldn't move in other than it would interfere with your affair.

Isn't it a crying shame her family knew that she needed to be protected from her OWN husband? They stood by her while you betrayed her terribly. You might as well have raped her. So of course they tried to protect her. Don't try and make her family out to be the bad guys here, kiss. YOU are the only bad guy in this picture!

Bravo to tst!

kiss,

I think you should thank her family for standing by her and then offer your apology for what you did.

I want to thank everyone for the help. I am not going to be posting on this web site no longer.

THANKS,
KISS

Why?

I know that the spouse is not supposed on the other's thread but as kiss's BS, I feel that I have a right to defend him here, especially to pantsonfire. Kiss came here at my request to learn how to recover our marriage. And now, you have posted here, not once but twice and attacked him. Now, this is no longer a valuable resource for him for he fears posting and being attacked for trying to do the right thing.
He has been practicing his EP's, he has been meeting my EN's and he has started coaching with SH. If you are familiar with these, then you would know that all of this is part of the reccovery process and making our marriage stronger.
I have spoken to Dr. Bill Harley and he has advised for me to tell the family to leave us alone and allow us to work on us. That you are making a complicated matter even more complicated. This is a process and just because it wasn't done to your satisfaction does not give you a right to post here and attack him.
I have spoken to Steve Harley and he advised that I am the patient, not you. I need to be treated first! And that is what kiss is trying to do.
I know you think you are doing this for the right reasons but this is causing me distress and putting large obstacles in the way of our path to recovery.

kiss/RQ have your shared the radio clips of Dr. Harely advising this to you with your family?


I posted them on yours and RQ's thread.

Really?

I would bet there were nearly 50 posts removed from my thread when I showed up here.

I had attacks comin at me everytime I tried to post. They were so severe that the posts were completely removed and mulitple posters were banned.

I stuck it out though!

Why?

Because my wife asked me to agree to posting here as a condition of recovery and I wasn't about to let her down because I was feeling attacked in some way......

The posts you're complaining about aren't even attacks IMO, just an annoyance....

Get your rear back in here and get to work, ya hear me?

It is very disappointing when a wayward runs at the slightest hint of trouble. I have seen others withstand 100x times worse than this and they stuck it out because they were sincere about recovery. I strongly encourage you to not allow KISS to hide behind your skirts, RQ. He can get lots of help here, but he needs to man up and face the music. A WS who is serious about recovery could not be run off by wild horses. Encourage him to come back, RQ. Help him be a man, not a wimp.

ML, I just wanted to be clear that he is NOT running from the regular posters here. Just those who create phony accounts to attack him.
That is all I want to say on this thread. I hope Kiss will return and continue to post as I have asked him to

I am glad you asked him to come back. He is a big boy and is fully able to handle criticism no matter where it comes from. I am not surprised that he is getting criticism from your family, though. They have been hurt too. Your H is not the victim here. He needs to put on his big gurl pants.

My sister and mother HATED my husband after what he did to me. My sister said through gritted teeth "I HATE HIS GUTS." But my H manned up and repaired the damage he did to those relationships. They have very warm, friendly friendships today.

My H initially told me that we weren't going to see my family again because of their reaction. I explained to him that I had lost enough and would not be giving up one more damn thing for him. My family stood behind me when he betrayed me so he would have to man up and face them. If I had to choose, I would choose my family so he would be wise to not place me in a position to have to choose.

To his great credit, he quickly grew some balls and faced my family. They are now great friends. But if I had not insisted that he behave like a man instead of a weasel punk, he would not have risen to the challenge. And who wants to be married to a punk? I sure didn't.

It is not uncommon that family members are angry when they see their beloved family member being abused and mistreated. It would be a tragedy to condemn them for being angry just because they care.

Also, my family's anger towards him dissipated when he went to them and apologized AND demonstrated good treatment of me over a period of time. That is what your husband needs to do. You shouldn't have to tell him to do that, he should be doing that on his own.

I totally agree with you.

Kiss, I hope you're still listening.

If you do all that, and the family still isn't willing to make amends, say a year from now, then we can re-evaluate your approach.

They are still in protect-your-wife mode, in addition to suffering their own pain from your actions. Because you not only failed to protect her, but caused her the worst pain of her life, they stepped in to fill the role that should have been yours.

That doesn't mean that I condone name-calling, or feel like the way they are expressing their anger is the most productive for the 2 of you as a couple. But SOMEBODY has to be the first one to step up and start trying to make peace.

That somebody should be you.

RQ, you posting on this thread is distracting to KISS, and it is precisely due to defending the WS that BSs are encouraged NOT to post on their WS's thread.

KISS, I wish that my family stood up for me the way that your BW's family is sticking up for her. They SHOULD be angry with you. You HURT their daughter/sister/mother/friend. That was something that THEY had to see the effects of while you ran off.

Also, ITA with HPB and ML. You haven't been treated as poorly as you think. You are feeling the CONSEQUENCES of your actions. If you don't deal with them, and choose to run, I would advise your BW not to attempt recovery with her because you would be dangerous to her. You need to deal with the consequences and make yourself into a better person. The only way you can do that is work at it.

I don't believe you're yet serious about recovery.

I would be DELIGHTED if you proved me wrong.

There were a lot of bad feelings between my sister's (MovingForward) WH and our family after his A. We are a very close family and we became very involved in making sure she was protected and in calling him (WH) out on his bad behavior.

His coming to us hat in hand and doing what HPB did (apologizing to us and thanking us for supporting MF) went a long way in healing and making things right.

I can only imagine if his attitude had been like yours that the situation would have kept escalating...as it has done in your case.

This makes me very sad for RQ and your family.

Is this the way you demonstrate your committments after just five short weeks?

Will you treat your marriage the same way?

Kiss, I thought I would re-visit this post.

When I examine your wifes "sig line";


Your wife sensed an emotional affair had already begun, "because it had".

And your re-writing of the Thanksgiving Day history is such typical wayward crapola that it almost makes me laugh to read it again.

Do you see the dishonesty in this post of yours?

I know it's tough to admit it, but you really set up the whole Thanksgiving Day drama to excuse yourself from going anywhere. My bet is you were in contact with OW that day. It's pretty typical wayward behavior...... and so is the re-write!

Do you see this??

I did the same things, you're not unique my friend! It's all stuff right outa the wayward handbook...

Your wife's list of requirement included;

Demonstrating remorse (Godly remorse, not I'm sorry I got caught remorse)

Posting on this forum

Apologies to those you've harmed (immediate and extended families)


The current score ------- 0 for 3 (thats a strike out)

What ways can you accomplish this "build her trust back in me", because dissin' her family ain't a good start.


Feelings of security will come from loving actions as well as respect for others.

Read Matt 5:46-47 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?


And

Matt 23:23-27 �Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices�mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law�justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

�Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

�Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.



This kinda sums up both you and me (me during my first recovery)..... Do you see yourself in any of these verses? And we wanted others to trust us?? jeesh, theyd've been crazy to trust such a viper... ya know!

Specifically,

What

Does

This

Quote

Mean

To

You

???????

Was this for real?

Did you have a sincere moment out of the fog and then disappear back into the abyss again a short week or so later?


Look, I disappeared back into the abyss after a few weeks of recovery and it took months before I returned.... But the damages were far greater than I ever imagined possible....

It doesn't have to be that way!

You don't have to travel the path I traveled.

But

If you want to avoid that destruction,

You must truly surrender all (to God). In doing so, you'll become sweetly broken instead of resentful and angry.

Has this changed yet??

Kiss,

Have you asked your wife to detail her days when you were out of the house?

Details about the kids days, and nights?


My kids all suffered greatly for my infidelity, just as yours did..... Have you asked for all the details?

My 13 yr old daughter cried herself to sleep every night.
My 9 yr old son banged his head on the walls to the point of bruising.
My 7 yr old son laid in my closet (that was empty) and cried saying he just wanted to be close to his daddy.

Even my mother-in-law cried for and with my wife daily while I was wayward.

Have you asked for the details of what happened because of your horrid actions of adultery....

How many other peoples threads have you read on the forums??

Can you relate with any of them??

Did you see yourself in any of their stories? Or have you only been focused on you.


The turing point for many of us begins when we have compassion for the pain of others instead of only seeing our own pain. Would you agree?

If you aren't going to return and post;

1) Get your tail in the same home as your wife, no more excuses. This most of all shows a lack of commitment and regard toward your marriage.

2) Read Surviving an Affair.

3) Continue your coaching with Steve Harley.


Whatever your forum experience has been, don't judge MB based on it. In fact, if you've coached with Steve... you know better already.

Continue the coaching, read the book, MOVE HOME.

PS: Home is where your wife and children live.

sorry for not posting in a while. My wife has made it clear that this is important to her so I am going to make the effort to keep posting not only for her but i know that it is beneficial for me. I have been so crazy at work and baseball with both kids it seems that it is non stop.
It seems like we spend two or three days together then we don't see each other for a day or two. That time apart seems forever and seems to set us back. I constantly think of my wife and miss her miserably. It also seems to set her back and just seems to add to this slow painful process of recovery. We need to start scheduling time together and family time with the kids better.
I have moved in with my wife and kids. It has been great to really help with the kids and be able to hold my wife at night. I am really mad at my self for not thinking and getting involved in an affair. What I could have lost is invaluable.
I have listened to the audio for his needs her needs and I realize now that I wasn't as great the best husband and need to focus on meeting all of my wife's EN's.

What POJA efforts are you making?

What you could still lose. Don't get comfy in your efforts. Comfy leads very quickly to lazy. You can do this if you work at it. You can also still lose everything if you don't work at it.

Posting here again is an excellent first step. Welcome back!

Okay, when are you going to start scheduling?


Your anger is counter productive.

we really haven't had any situations that have needed any.

Try POJA while grocery shopping if there are no other low-emotion choices to be made. Dr. Harley said that it can be a good way of practicing, for most couples, anyway. (Occasionally you may have someone who just feels too strongly about their produce to make it work. Hopefully you and RQ would manage not to brawl over rutabagas. )

How are you planning anything on the weekends, or for your date night?

What are you doing concerning the kids?

These should all be POJA'd

Get your practice in on the easy stuff, where there are many solutions that both of you can be enthusiastic about. Then it'll be second nature by the time you run into a harder choice, where one of you would normally try to push your way through instead of considering each other.

Please listen to these excellent radio clips of a WH asking what he needs to do to win his BW back.

Radio Clip on a WH wanting to know what to do to win his BW back
Segment #2
Segment #3

I would suggest posting a little each day. They don't have to be long posts, but if you're serious about helping your BW and healing your M, there will be posts.

She said she needed you to post as part of her healing process. It's such a small thing to do in order to begin repairing the damage you caused.

brainhurts,
We have done all of the things discussed in the radio clips. I feel that we are closer now then we have been in a very long time. I am constantly looking for ways to make my wife happy and make sure that her EN are being meet.
Our 11TH wedding anniversary is coming up this weekend and I have taken the weekend off so we can spend it together.
I can't wait till I leave work on Friday as I have a fathers day party at my sons school. It should be a great weekend.

THANKS,
KISS

Neak,

My biggest issue is that I never know what to post about. Recently my main goal is to focus on my wife constantly. As her happiness is the most important thing to me. I am always trying to make sure she knows that I am always available to her and I try to spend every second I can with her.
On Sunday I left work early to surprise her and the kids at a water park. She seemed very excited that I was there and we all had a great time spending the rest of the day together.

THANKS,
KISS

Glad to hear it kiss. So how much UA time are you getting?

Have you scheduled another appointment with Steve?

Have you done your homework? Filled out the questionnaires?

your thread title is "i want my wife back." your posts should reflect what you're doing to make that happen.


*this* is what you can post about! what her ENs are, and how you're meeting them. it will be helpful to other WHs too.

the water park sounds great! it is lovely to be able to read about a WH earning that F. please keep posting. consider it a journal if you want.

What Marriage Builders books are you reading?

I noticed that you did not answer this question. We can help you more if you will answer the questions that are put to you.


30 hours UA time for a marriage in crisis
15 hours FC time
Limit work to 50 hours a week, including your commute and your lunch break if any
56 hours sleep, for your health

That will leave you with 17 hours a week for other miscellaneouses.

A good schedule for a marriage recovering from trauma

Get a binder.

Get a 3-hole punch.

Make sure your printer has plenty of ink.

Now, get to printing;

Emotional Needs

Love Busters

Personal History

Recreational Enjoyment


Save the first two to your hard drive, the second two should be fine in a one-shot.

PoJA a day of the week to sit down and schedule your UA time for the week, and for a few weeks, do the ENQ and LBQ at this time as well. As you get better at meeting each others' needs, you may find some will change rank.

When you see them moving around less, you can decrease the frequency to a few months (3-6) apart, ultimately going back to review them and starting the cycle over if you hit a crisis.

You, of course, want to eliminate ALL love busters, and put your focus on; meeting the UA requirements, and expertly meeting the top 3-5 emotional needs your wife lists in the way she states she would like them met.

markos,

We have been planing things to due. We have plans on Saturday to go out to dinner and we are going to see a Shakespeare play in the evening. Then Sunday we are going out for the day with the kids but we aren't positive what we are going to do yet depending on the weather.
My job is tough because I'm salary and I must work at least 55 hours a week. 5 days 11 hours a day. also my days and hours change some days I work 5AM till 4PM, some days I work 9am till 8pm, or 1PM till 12am. what makes it tougher is I usually have to work most Saturdays and Sundays. That's why its so important for us to plan out our time together and with the kids.

THANKS,
KISS

Brainhurts,

I would say that we are getting our 15 hours of UA time together most weeks. Some weeks more some weeks maybe not quite 15 hours.
No we haven't made an appointment with Steve Harvey yet. It has been tough due to our schedules but we both want to.
Some of the questionnaires we have filled out already. His main thing that he wanted me to due was to make it clear to my wife that she wasn't the cause of my affair in any way. That it was my fault for not protecting my EN's.

THANKS,
KISS

Neak,

I have completed his needs her needs. My wife has Love busters so that will be my next one.

THANKS,
KISS

Can you up your UA time? Can you call Steve and make another appointment?

So what have you done to make it clear to RQ that she wasn't the reason for your affair? How are you protecting your lovebank?

Did you listen to the clips?

Here's another good clip about how a WH doesn't know how to tell his BW why he had the affair because they had a good marriage. Radio clip on WH doesn't know how to tell his BW why he had an affair

Kiss, posting here is part of your BW's requirements to recover your marriage, that should be motivation enough to post, as you would be willing to do everything and anything to fix what you broke.

You need to schedule at LEAST 20 hours of UA time to fix your marriage, and re-build that LB balance. And what kinds of things do you do during those times, are they completely alone? See, just spending time together, in the same room isn't UA time.

If your job is getting in the way of your life, then you need to find a new job.

For each day of the last week, write out here, when your UA time was, and what you two did. UA time is HUGELY important. Without it, you have no marriage to save.

couldn't resist!

Well, I've been gone more than a week, and I see this thread was really burning up the airwaves in the meantime. Kiss, at whatever point you get serious, we'll be here to help you along.

In the meantime, who wants to make smores? The Dervish only left me a few marshmallows, but I'll share.

Me, me, me.

All this time I thought one emoticon was poking the other in the eyeball. Silly me - they just wanted a little campfire fun food.

that was my closest stick with marshmallow smore I could find.

It's how the Dervish makes smores. It's a full contact sport.

Hence the name! Love it.

I want smores! Once someone tells me what they are?

Toasted marshmallow in between 2 graham crackers and some chocolate. Pure heaven.

Melted marshmallow over a campfire. Then put on chocolate bar in between graham crackers!!!

YUMMY! Very different from your blood pudding.

Aww LR too fast.

Oh yeah it sounds different

I'm going to a campfire party on Saturday. Its to celebrate the Olympic torch passing through.

There will be a Victorian pie shop.....!

But should I revolutionise everyone's world with smores? What are graham crackers? Are they wafery or biscuity?

I bet if it was in a radio clip you would have beat me

Graham Crackers

Thanks Neak. I think digestive biscuits are the closest thing we have to that. Crumbly, sweet and kind of wheaty. They get used in cheesecake bases. Chocolate digestives are awesome! I can only imagine what adding marshmallow would do....

I'm still looking for the smore radio clip.

Sorry for the T/J
Ok this is the closest I could find to a smores clip.

A woman has an AO at Burger King. Maybe they were out of smores?
Radio clip on AO at Burger King

Digestive biscuits? I hope they taste better than they sound. :p

sorry to t/j.

indie, graham crackers aren't sweet like a digestive (depending on what kind of digestive). they have a very, very tiny bit of sweetness to them - a drop. we often give them to babies to teethe on as they are so plain. i have several boxes of them in my pantry (don't tell - i like to eat them with a little icing on top!). but i get them to make pie crusts (chocolate cream).

last trip i gave all my women friends a box of graham crackers w/a recipe for s'mores! (means "some more" as in "i want...!") great for camping, scout camps, and at our house, frankly, any ole time!

mmmm, i am totally craving a boston cream pie. someone else can tell indie what those are!

t/j over.

hey kiss, maybe you and RQ can make some smores tonight! UA time!

Oh no I've had one of those one time when in the US. yummy! Also Oreoes (which you can buy here now, yay!) and Hershey Bars (which are yuck. that isnt chocolate)

Gasp! How can you say such a thing?? I love Hershey. I've been to Hershey Park and to the candy factory. It's heavenly...

Im sending you a bar of Cadbury's Dairy Milk, RQ. That's chocolate. Hersheys are sour and taste like feet. All Brits try Hersheys in the states and its never a good experiment.

I went to the Hersheys factory in CA many times before they moved it to Mexico. >:(

The last time I was there, the Dervish was oh about 2-3 years old. He was asleep when we got there, and slept through the first half of the tour as I carried him along. When he woke up, we were in the walkway above the whole factory, and he opened his eyes to see chocolate and more chocolate everywhere, as far as he could see. The look on his face is one of my favoritest memories.

That's pretty cool. I'd love to do that for my nephews.

There's a chocolate ad on at the moment, for Lindt, a swiss brand and the catchline is: Do you dream in chocolate?

My 6yo nephew turns around and says to me: 'Aunty Indie, do YOU dream in chocolate?'

'I most certainly do'.

(His eyes haze over) So do I!

ROFL!

uh uh. whittaker's chocolate - now that's chocolate! their dark choc pepperment block is yummmm! made in nz, by nz-ers, and they haven't made their bars smaller and raised the price like cadbury (no offense to the queen's chocolate!)

Are you trying to say Cadbury is furrin candy? Next thing I know, you'll be saying that Toblerone isn't American, either.

indie. I brought a bag of Hershey chocolate back to the office in the UK. One person put a piece in her mouth and actually spit it out into the trash and went running to the restroom to wash her mouth out.

I thought you guys were supposed to be polite.

You should listen to this radio clip the BW is pregnant and her WH's OW is pregnant. The BW and WH do not live together. Dr. Harley says if both spouses are on board with MB in 35+ years it has always worked. If both aren't on board it will not work.
Radio clip

Cadburys in the US is actually made by Hershey. Made the vast mistake of buying a Hershey-made Dairy Milk in the states!

So no, it isn't foreign!



Oh poor thing! My reaction wasn't THAT violent. The same thing happens when you give British chocolate to continental Europeans. They think were phillistines who don't understand chocolate at all! I guess the chocolate you fall in love with as a kid is the chocolate you love forever

No you're right it is a disgrace that only some cadburys is made in UK, the rest in Poland. They got taken over by the evil Kraft a few years ago! The chocolate that inspired Charlie and the Chocolate Factory owned by Kraft and made in Poland!

I hope if kiss comes back we didn't t/j his thread too bad.

Welcome back kiss. I hope you see the radio clip I posted for you about Dr. Harley saying both spouses have to be on board with MB for it to be successful. In 35+years he has seen it be 100% successful when both are on board.

If Kiss comes back, he'll know we were waiting for him.

For today's culinary adventure, I think I'm going to bake some melt-in-your-mouth Danish bread that I recently learned how to make. Anybody else hungry?

Neak, you are trouble.

I want to lose weight and I've already scoffed tonnes of chocolate and marshmallow since you hijaked this thread.

Now yummy bread? I'm already heading to the kitchen for pain au chocolat and I blame YOU

Always glad to help. Maybe I'd better wait till later to post the recipe.

Please listen to these radio clips on just compensation to give your BW.

Radio clip on Just compensation at about the 5:30 mark
Segment #2

I doubt he'll be back. He was never serious about recovery.

He's not remotely serious. When he is, he'll be back. And we'll be waiting.

That may have sounded ominous. It's not....necessarily.

Seriously though, when he reaches the place where he understands that he's ALREADY LOST HIS FAMILY, chances are good that we'll see him on here again. His M is by no means hopeless yet; he needs to understand the gravity of what he's done.

I sure hope so for RQ and those kids and for himself.

I do, too. The window keeps narrowing for this thing to be saved, and still things keep coasting along toward Niagara Falls. It's still possible to row safely to shore, but it's way closer to the Point of No Return than I like to ever see anyone go.

I know, right.

It's scary to watch from afar.

Especially when we know how amazing things could have been already.

Exactly.

I keep hearing the clip I posted of Dr. Harley saying in 35+ years the MB program is 100% successful when both spouses are on board.

It's like when you give your kid's advice and they go out and do their own thing and then come back wishing they had listened to you.

I tell them "welcome to making your own choices and learning." Part of being a parent and more frustrating when it's adults that you're dealing with.

Yup.

brainhurts,

Thanks for the radio clips. I have been reading on the site but haven't posted. I was inspired by the talk of smores and went out last week and bought a fire pit and had smores with the kids, rocket queen and my family that's visiting from Florida.
I feel that our marriage has been great as we continue to spend time together and with the kids. I had eye surgery three days ago and still can't see a thing. But my incredible wife and best friend has been by me helping me through it. I don't know what I would do without her.
We have another appointment with Dr. Harley on Friday after another visit to the eye doctors. can't wait to talk to the coaching center as I know how important it is to my wife.

Thanks,
KISS

Hopefully you'll keep posting, too. Good to hear from you - and it's great that you have an appt with Dr. H.

Thanks for the update kiss. Hope your eye recovery goes well.

Please let us know what Steve says.

What did you think of the clips?

that's great kiss (the smores)! hope you recover your sight soon.

you know what they say: a happy wife = happy life. you will be thrilled and excited yourself when your m is on track and thriving.

Hmmm... where have I heard this before?


.....



....


...


..


.


Aha!


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8122_wife.html

Get well soon Kiss. Eager to hear Dr Hs advice for you both.

So we never got to talk to Steve as our appointment was for 2:30 we kept calling every 10 minutes like we our supposed to. we called until almost 3:30 never getting through.
We had to stop trying because we had my cousins wedding to go to that started at 5. so it was frustrating not getting through as it is so hard for us to set an appointment due to our work schedules.
By the way the eye is feeling much better even though i can't see a darn thing out of it.

THANKS,
KISS

Hey Kiss, I hope your eye continues to improve. I'd hoped you would come back here, as I'd read your thread and I think your point of view is needed for people who read here. It's evident how much you really love RQ; please take very good care of her and all your kids.

glad to hear the eye is better. we have had that happen with SH too. sometimes he gets caught up in a marital emergency. you did leave messages, right? he is pretty good about getting you another appt asap when this happens. do contact his office w/this info. i hope you get scheduled soon. it IS frustrating, i know. we had to call at 4 am due to time zones! now getting up at 3.45am and never getting your appt - that's frustrating! but i figured if he couldn't take a call from down here at the bottom of the world, then someone more desperate than i needed him more. goodness knows you need that appt, kiss, so do what you have to do to meet the first available opportunity, ok?

Glad to hear it.

Letty,

Yes we did leave messages. My wife sent an email also trying to see if we can reschedule for Thursday morning. The hard thing is im a retail manager that works different hours and my wife works a state job that is 9 to 5. So on Thursday im off and see is trying to go in late. I will keep everyone updated.

THANKS,
KISS

very good, kiss. keep it up. sometimes you have to be persistent, the "squeaky wheel" YKWIM?

Yep, keep trying. Persistence in sticking to the plan is one of the most important parts of recovery.

Keep it up kiss and thanks for updating.

So we had our session with Steve Harley on Thursday morning. It went very well but he gave me a lot of "home work" so im going to have to try to make some time tomorrow. Its going to be difficult as we are both off tomorrow. (A rare weekend day off for me so we try to do stuff together with the kids).

Good! Well, the kids can have some time, too, without changing your priority of MommyDaddy Time first.

great! the homework and UA time are your priority. the kids can wait (not that you can't do something special with them too, but keep to time). children need a stable, loving home. you create that by creating a stable, loving marriage. your kids will benefit from your M, so the M is #1 priority.

let us know how it goes. when's your next appt?

Good kiss and thanks for the update.

I agree with Neak and Letty. Caring for mom and dad is the most important thing at the moment. This is what's best for the children.

Have you read this?
Caring for the Children, means Caring for Each Other.

Yesterday evening I asked rocketqueen to sit down and talk to me. We discussed some of what we talked to Dr. Harley about. I gave her a no contact letter that Dr. Harley wanted me to write. It stated that in any circumstance if I was contacted by the woman I had my affair with trys to contact me that I would avoid her and contact rocketqueen immediately. Then I had to give five scenarios. I felt that we are beyond that but its something he had asked so I did it.
After we discussed the no contact letter we discussed the amount of pain that she felt and the hell I put her through. Dr. Harley wanted me to discuss with her how some of his past clients have said the pain of dealing with their spouse's affair was the worst thing that they ever had to deal with. Some of them said worse then dealing with rap, father being murdered, even the death of one mans 8 year old son.
When I asked her if this was true she said that at least when you get rapped its by a stranger most of the time!! That was hard to hear. Then she gave me her diary that she wrote in when things started to get bad. That was really tough to read. It really hit me hard. We discussed my state of mind at the time and she said that I turned into a different person. Now looking back i see what a lost soul I was EVERY DECISION I made was the wrong one. I really felt like a piece of sh** after that conversation. Dr. Harley said that there will be a lot of tough conversations along the way and that was deffinity one of them. I am exspecting many more. I AM READY!!!

KISS

You're doing a good job, improving yourself one day at a time

Kiss have you asked RQ for her forgiveness?

Of course you still need to give her JC, but have you asked?

no I haven't asked her to forgive me. I don't think she is there yet. We continue to grow and become a lot closer. I don't want to put pressure on her or make her feel added stress.
We went to see Ace Frehley in Time Square and it was a great to be there with my best friend. In the past every time I have gone to see Ace I have gone alone. So it was awesome to be able to hold her and have fun.

KISS

Talk about one HUGE DJ....

And there fly'eth another.....

Make sure you have an umbrella, it's raining DJ's

You may need to ask repeatedly before she's ready to forgive you.

If you're not ready to do that, you're not ready to be forgiven.

Thanks Neak.

That's what I was trying to imply.

Kiss, how will you know if you don't ask?

Neak and Brain,

Thanks I will discuss it with her. I have a question. Rocketqueen came to me and asked me about a phone call I made to my old work place. Its where the OW works but I called there to speak to one of my former employees to see if he would want to come work for me at my location. I have an opening and he would be a huge asset to me and its closer to his home by about a half hour. Rocketqueen questioned me about the call. She wasn't agressive but when I told her the above I didn't get a response. So I don't know if I should readdress the conversation or if she was ok with it. Is what I did wrong? I don't know if it wwas big deal to her or if she just needed reassurance.

THANKS,

KISS

Gampelan; next time you do something this lunkheaded, you tell her BEFORE you make the call, and give her the option to be present while you make the call. That, sir, is transparency.

What you did there? Possible violation of EP's, and total violation of PoJA.

Make sense?

And yes, it was a big deal. You called the workplace of your former affair partner.

Think about that.

You have proven yourself a liar, and that you will do something that would injure her as much as your infidelity... why should she buy your story?

THINK man, THINK.

Got it. I didn't realize it at the time. I was going to tell her and I didn't bring it up to her before she approached me about it. Next time I will put more thought into it. I didn't have his cell number or I would have called it.

THANKS,
KISS

HHH hit it out of the park.

Kiss you're trying to earn her trust back. So you need to stop all behaviour that would cause her confusion.

You POJA it.

RQ I was thinking about calling XYZ about a job with me here. How would you feel about that? Would you like to be present when I make the call?

It's all about thinking about her.

My FWH has done this. I remember spending the whole day in a panic. Waiting for him to come to me and tell me about it so I would not have to ask.

I always felt that if I had to ask it was usually bad. If it was not volunteered it was something he didnt want me to know about.

HHH has hit it on the head exactly. Of course RQ's first thought would be that you were making contact with OW. It's a HUGE trigger.

Had AJ done this, I would have freaked out, at least inside. I probably would have gotten enough control not to hit him in the head with a frying pan when I asked him about it, but in my heart I would have gone back to all the terror and heartache of the A.

The Bible says to avoid the appearance of evil. In other words, don't do anything that could be misconstrued as being wrong. This is 100x more important for you now, when because of your recent track record, RQ has solid reasons NOT to trust you, and only the beginning glimmers of the possibility of a new track record.

I don't say that to throw the A in your face; I want you to have an understanding of RQ, and to realize that until she has seen a new track record from you for quite some time, she will be unable to rely on the changes you're making.

And your carelessness of a few moments can wreck months or even years of hard work.

For you, avoiding the appearance of evil will look like you being so thoughtful of RQ that do nothing that might make her worry for even a moment that you're back in C with the OW, or forging any ties with another woman.

At first it's a lot of work to retrain your habits. But within a couple weeks, this kind of thoughtfulness will be second nature, and you won't even have to consciously think about it. The benefits that you give to RQ by making sure she always feels safe will pay dividends to you, too, since a W who feels safe and loved will be much more enthusiastic about meeting your own EN's.

It's a win-win for both of you.

Thanks everyone for the feedback I get it. Irealize now and understand how much of a trigger it would be for RQ.


THANKS,
KISS

What is your plan for today? It doesn't have to be a big one - recovery is bitten off in bite-sized chunks, one day at a time.

Neak,
Sorry for not responding but today we didn't do much I left for work at 4:30 this morning and got home about 5 PM. Rocketqueen made dinner as I have been going through a lot of my KISS collectibles and trying to sell some on Ebay as I have so much.
After dinner she then went shopping with our daughter and I stayed home with our 6 year old son. I wanted to go shopping with her but she didn't want to deal with my sons unwillingness to listen in the grocery store. We will be putting the kids to bed soon then hopefully we can sit down and relax together.

THANKS,
KISS

How much UA time are you guys getting every week? What are the types of activities you are doing during these times? Are you going on dates OUTSIDE of the house at least twice a week?

How's your homework coming? I'd like nothing better than to see the two of you succeed in building a fabulous new M together.

Neak,

I need help. PLEASE!!!!!! Rocketqueen and I had a talk last night and it was tough. She is having a lot of issues with me. I have been trying to make sure I'm meeting her EN's and feel like im doing a good job of it. But she still isn't happy.

She is having trouble moving on. I had a comment to her that the affair is like a very bad injury and she keeps picking at it keeping it a fresh wound. I told her that we need to get her where she can let it heal the best that it can. It will never heal 100% their will be a scar.

So I need help getting her to the point of not living the injury constantly. How do I get her to heal? What can I do to help us?

THANKS for always trying to help us,
KISS

What just compensation have you given her? Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?

Have you asked her what she NEEDS from you? Write it down when she tells you?

Kiss, this is one of the most important parts of recovery, how much UA time have you and RQ had every week?

You need to follow the POJA, PORH and POUA. How have you been in these areas?

Hey there kiss. The only information I can give you is from my perspective as a betrayed spouse/wife. I think after readin around here for a while, most of us get that we were a huge part in screwing up our marriages. It isn't just our spouse's fault after all!! You and your wife didn't meet eachother's ENs. That said, your way of dealing with it destroyed everything.

Have you made up for it? Does she know by you working your tail end off to make changes, by your genuine remorse that you are sorry? Ar you walking right beside her in working through her fears every single step of the way to give her strength and build trust? Have you put EP's in place? If you are pulling the "can't really deal with it, don't want to face it, not really showing remorse, just get over it as fast as you can behavior, she will NEVER be able to move past it. You cut her and your marriage as deep as you possibly could. You have to face it, own it, feel how much you hurt her and destroyed her trust in you, and show it and right your wrongs!!! It isn't going to go away for her. Your actions/lack of actions show her how truly sorry you are or are not!!

Yes kiss.

Tell us exactly how much UA you're getting.

An excellent radio clip on just compensation.

Radio Clip on Just Compensation at 5:15 mark

BH, I can't get the radio clips to work on my laptop. What program do I need. I saw you write that answer to someone. I downloaded the latest flash player, real player, adobe, and something else. I don't have any trouble playing anything else. Do you have any advice for me?

Download firefox.

Try that and let me know.

The NC letter is only the beginning. You need to lead the way in developing a whole new lifestyle, a whole new way of thinking, a whole new way of being careful of each other and protecting each other.

I'm not going to throw too much at you all at once, since I want you to be able to answer the excellent questions the others have already asked. I know RQ had asked for you to carry out a list of items to help her begin her healing process.

Where do you stand with the list?

Kiss,

I am in recovery also and have an understanding of RQ's situation based on my own recent experiences. I want to share with you MY experience and perhaps you can find some piece of information that is helpful to you, maybe not.

After a yr of trickle truth and other confessions, my H confessed to a ONS in August of 2010. This would make it almost two yrs ago, and they say it takes two yrs to recover right? I thought on that day, as hurt as I was, that perhaps this would be a new beginning and I would finally have an H who would pull out ALL STOPS to work toward recovery with me. I did not just want this behind us, I was EAGER and excited to move forward and have the marriage I always wanted. Now some of that was shock, it wouldn't have been nearly so easy for me, the queen of resentment, to do that. But the willingness to move forward was there.

In my dreamy state I had visions of my H falling down on his knees, begging me not to leave, promising me that he would fight for me and do everything he could possibly do to keep me and make me the happiest woman alive. I had visions of him calling a MC the very next morning at 8:00 am, pulling out our MB materials and demanding that we spend hours a day working on them, planning a vacation for us to get away from it all to work on our M, posting on these forums to tell everyone what an A he was and to get help to turn this around.

Ya, he did none of that. He said "I will do whatever you want me to do to fix this." And then, he went back to his regular life. I sat stunned, my heart and soul completely shattered by the pain, wondering why he felt so little compassion that he not only did this, but then ignored it and went on with life as if nothing had happened.

I went through some VERY angry phases. I still have a document titled '50 things I hate about you' on my computer (and I went back to amend it and add more). I felt disgust for him, for at least 2 months. I suffered the worse pain I have ever felt, sobbing in the shower every day for months, and throwing up randomly whenever I thought of some other B with her hands on my property. I am not saying I wouldn't have gone through all that, but would it have hurt LESS if he had just been the man I envisioned him being after DDay?

He WAS willing to do the work. If I had come to him with some homework, if I had made an appt with MC, he would have done the work and gone to the appt. But that was not enough for me. I needed HIM to bring the work TO ME. I needed HIM to make the appt with MC. I needed HIM to drive the recovery train, and as much as the wonderful MB posters told me that it didn't matter who drove the train as long as it got back on track, it mattered TO ME. I needed him to fight for me. I needed to know that he wanted ME, after feeling like he didn't for so long, and that he would do whatever he could to keep me here.

I told him a million times that it would not be what he did do, but rather what he didn't that would be the end of us. Gradually over the next year, I became less angry. I became less resentful, less bitter. I became even less sad. I just felt, nothing. I wanted peace from all this. At one time living a life without him seemed amazingly sad and difficult, and gradually it seemed PEACEFUL and safe.

So sometime in the spring, I told him I was done. My LB was at an all time low. I had spent hours praying for God to make me not love him anymore, because I didn't want to feel the pain that loving him costed. Seems like I got that prayer answered, because I felt so...empty. I told him that I would give it the summer, and then I was filing for divorce. I had been so resentful, I hadn't been putting the effort in I needed to, and I wanted to take the summer to do just that, to know I had done everything I could. I thought I could do it if I knew it was going to end soon. I needed an end to this.

I did not think he would turn it around. I gave him the summer for ME, not really for him, I had lost hope that he would ever care enough about me and our M to turn it around. But he did. (So far, summers not over yet...) We have had a great summer and have accomplished more in the last couple of months than we did in the couple of years before that. And it was not because of his 'willingness to do the work.' It was because he decided he did not want to lose me, and he pulled out all the stops to fight for me.

You feel remorse, and you want to get through this and be married to your beautiful wife. But it is going to take more than your willingness to do this. It is going to take you fighting for her. I don't think everyone needs this level of commitment. But I did, and from my following RQ's recovery thread, I think she does too.

I came within a breath away of being completely and totally done, and I still struggle with wanting to throw in the towel any time things start going back to 'normal.' H came very, very close to me walking away with no regrets. RQ is almost where I was, IMO. Your nonchalant attitude toward this is causing that. You have to be more than just willing to do the work, when she stands over you like a school teacher. YOU have to DRIVE. You told her with your A that she is not worth it, that you do not want her. You need to prove to her now that this is NOT the case.

You have a great advantage over many people in your shoes, because you have specific things requested of you. Do they make you uncomfortable? How will being divorced, living alone, and watching your wife date other men make you feel? That is the alternative to posting on this site, making amends with her family, and doing the other 'uncomfortable' things she is asking you to do. YOU OWE HER THIS. This, is what Just Compensation is. You can never erase what you did, but you can fight for her and make her feel like she is worth it.

Are you willing to do this?

If you have questions, you can ask anyone here on this board. You will get the answer. If you have questions about what she wants, you can ASK HER. I am certain she will be excited that you care enough to clarify, as I would have been.

You CAN change this, but you need to do it now. You need to 1) prioritize RQ and your M recovery above ALL ELSE. Before you invest time, energy, thought into anything else you need to ask yourself if there is anything you could instead be doing at that moment for RQ and your M. You need to 2) come to her every week and say 'we need to plan our UA time.' And don't let her walk away until its done. You have been in recovery long enough to recognize the importance of this time. YOU need to drive this, make sure it is done. Also, post on here. I know it isn't everyones cup of tea, but it is important to her that you are getting the feedback. I don't ask my H to post, but I do ask him to read MY posts because I think he can learn from the feedback. He read to page 17 and stopped, (there are now 51 pages), and it made me feel like he didn't care enough to 'read.' How hard is that really? He did, last week, catch himself up after I told him this. Everybody here wants to see you succeed at this, so there is no better place to get support.

OK this is really long and perhaps I lost you long ago. I really want to see you and RQ succeed. It is SO FRUSTRATING, as a BS, to be SO CLOSE to having a complete recovery and amazing M and yet to just not be able to quite reach it. YOU can bridge that gap Kiss, if you choose.

The Critical Importance of Undivided Attention

Kiss, you put a shout out for help, and now, we hear nothing but crickets. What's going on? We all want only the best for you and RQ.

We aren't getting nearly enough. We did go out to night for dinner and we went bowling. We had the kids with us and it was a desaster. They didn't listen and they were awful. I was so frustrated I feel that them being so bad all the time is just a huge stress that we don't need.

I just asked my wife to make plans for the week as she is lying here on the couch and she said " ok I will see you Thursday".

So this is my delemma. I work the next two days fro 9:30 AM till 8:30 PM. Then Wednesday from 1pm till midnight. I feel that my job is a huge burden that is making her feel like I don't care about her and that im not putting an effort into us!!!! It is so frustrating I am thinking about quiting but I make good money and I feel financially we will not make it. But i I don't quite I will lose my wife!!!!!

SSSSSSSSSSSSSOOOOOOOOOOO FRUSTRATING.

Hey, kiss,

if you aren't getting the time in, then your wife is right. You aren't caring. Your care is just words if it doesn't include the actions outlined on this site.

15-30 hours together alone without kids, weekly.

15 hours together with kids.

You have to make it happen, even if everything else drops, even if you have to move heaven and earth.

AND,

everything you do, all day long, every day, with her or not,

has to be something she is enthusiastic about.

That's care. That's thoughtfulness.

If it doesn't look like this, it's just words.

Looks like those are your two choices, then.

No one said it'd be easy.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=4027

kiss,

I was thinking about you on the way in to work this morning.

My feeling is really that you are not serious, and that your wife's emotions are responding to this. Completely rationally.

Why do I say you are not serious? You asked questions days ago, then didn't show back up to read the answers or respond until last night. You only show up here when it seems like things are going bad. You post a bit, then vanish. You aren't making the changes to make things better long term; you are just reacting to your wife's feelings, constantly trying to soothe things over. But because you are reacting moment by moment, instead of working the PLAN, you keep getting into a state where your wife's feelings are negative again. You are causing this, and you aren't getting active and involved enough to find out what LONG TERM CHANGES you need to make so that you can have a positive effect on your wife's feelings ALL THE TIME.

Take a look again at Dr. Harley's four rules for recovery after an affair:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html

Protection, Care, Time, and Honesty.

You probably think you've been following the program, and you're wondering why it's not working. I'm here to tell you it's not working, because like most people you've got huge blind spots. And in those blind spots are some massive failures to follow the program.

If you are serious, you'll ask your friends (us) to look you over and let you know what you are missing, and then you will correct it.

If you are not serious, you'll just try constantly to keep your wife's feelings at bay, and call this "recovery," and wonder why it's not working. For example, you'll tell her you care about you, maybe bring her flowers or something, tell her you love her, and call this "care," but that's not really following Dr. Harley's rule of care, because you are not spending the time with her that is really necessary for care. Or, you'll conceal things from her or try to fudge the truth, all to "protect" her, because you care about her and want her to feel better after everything horrible you did to her, but that's not really care, because you're not following the Rule of Honesty.

Being SERIOUS involves building a lifestyle that makes your wife thrilled and happy with you all of the time. You are treating it more like giving her a small shot because she is ill. She is not the problem. Your kids being bad is not the problem. You're the problem, friend, and we'd like to help you not be the problem.

I've got a few quotes for you from Fall in Love, Stay in Love, which I use in the FILSIL-based marriage seminar I have done several times at church.




This doesn't mean for everyone to go out and automatically quit their jobs. What it means is that the job is second priority to the M. If the job can't be kept in its place, and the M still be #1, then the job needs to go.

I don't know anything about your job, or if it's possible for you to place boundaries around the time it needs. I do know that no job is more important than M.

Have you psoken to RQ about your job and what your choices may be? This would be a good opportunity to start a POJA convo. This is DEFINITELY something that can not be decided on your own, as it would fall under an IB. Is there a lot of IB in your marriage? That will need to change.

If RQ doesn't want to POJA the job situation right now, I would recommend making no changes until/unless she's on board with the discussion. Replacing one IB with another isn't the answer.

What about your non-job time? Does your job take up every waking minute? What would your other options be for UA time?

My job schedule does suck most of the time. For instance this week my schedule is as follows Monday 9:30 am to 8:30 pm, tuesday 1 pm till 12 pm, Wednesday 1pm till 12 pm Thursday and Friday off, Saturday 9:30am to 8:30 pm, sunday 6 am till 5 pm.
Rocketqueen works Monday through Friday 9-5. Since she said we don't spend enough time together I offered to step down or change jobs. Stepping down would be a pay cut of about $45,000 a year about half of my pay.She is telling me not to do it. I told her I would rather lose my career then lose my family.
I believe that she has already decided that we are done.

why?

I have been trying to meet all of her emotional needs. Helping out around the house with cleaning, dishes and taking care of the kids. I try to keep in touch with her the best I can when im at work but most of the time its difficult to responde to her.
I do notice a big difference in her reaction and engagement to me when I work for a couple of days in a row and we don't see each other. Compared to when I'm off and we are together for a couple of days. But she tells me that she doesn't believe that all the hours I work has anything to do with it.

She said she wants me to move out. She doesn't think that I'm making an effort. All I do is try to spend every minute with her and the kids that I'm not working.
Then this evening she just told me that she wants us to live apart so we can work on our selves and the marriage.

How do you work on the marriage being apart!!!! especially when she is complaining that we don't spend enough time together!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FRUSTRATED KISS

I still have work to do. She wants me to post. She wants me to go to individual counceling ( witch I was but we started to go together) now not at all. She said that it wasn't helping us. I believe because she didn't always get the answer or response that she wanted. I still haven't written an apology letter to her parents. Everything else has been done.

Why haven't you written the letter to her parents?

So it sounds like she wasn't seeing your actions?

Excellent clip of Dr. H telling how he has clients that just won't put the work in. It won't work if you aren't willing to put the time in and make it a priority.
Radio clip on putting the work in

So kiss, are you REALLY putting the work in or is it all just words?

Just a tip for you: helping around the house and taking care of the kids is your job. You're supposed to do that.

Too, doing the dishes probably never got any woman all ready if you know what I mean. "Oooh, I just LOVE how he uses Cascade instead of the off-brand dishwasher soap!" Come on now.

Kiss,

Take it from someone who's been there: your wife wants you to not just check items off the list of things to do to offer just compensation, but to WOO her. She needs you to win her over! In order to feel secure in reconciling with you, she needs to feel you are passionate about her - about the two of you together - about doing everything you can to make it up to her that you hurt her so badly. She needs to FEEL you are remorseful and repentant.

You should have had that letter to her family done a long time ago - along with pursuing counseling, preferably with SH!

If you really want recovery, you need to be there, hat in hand, demonstrating that you are DOING everything you can - without her needing to ask you to. LEAD. Lead by example. The life of your family depends on it.

I would block out thirty hours on your schedule. I would offer those to your wife, half of them to be spent alone together as a couple, and half of them to be spent with the whole family.

If she doesn't accept this invitation, then I would repeat it again next week.

I would do this every week. For the rest of my life.

If you cannot do your job and make this time, only then would I drop the job, and then only after negotiating with her.

These hours are the core of the Marriage Builders program. If you are not doing them, then you are not doing Marriage Builders.

Your job is 55 hours a week. The whole week has 168 hours. You need to spend about 56 hours sleeping. That leaves 57 hours for you, almost twice as much as the thirty that you need! Get a day planner, and schedule this out on paper.

If your wife refuses to do this, DO NOT BECOME DEMANDING, DISRESPECTFUL, OR ANGRY. It is not her fault that it has come to this point; it is yours. Simply be persistent and try again next week.

I would get Dr. Harley's workbook and start working through every single section, working on your side. Create plans to overcome each of the problems addressed by each lesson, in order: selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, angry outbursts, dishonesty, independent behavior, annoying habits, meeting the need of affection, etc. Work through it all, and revise your work often, and most importantly, DO WHAT YOU PUT DOWN ON THE PAPER.

I'm sure that it is well within your power to win back her enthusiasm, if you will actually do the work and make this the highest priority in your life. But you will have to be extra persistent and extra patient, and you will have to make sure you never blame her for this situation. You caused it. If you start blaming her, it will be a love bank withdrawal that will drive her even further away.

Your M is still salvageable. I just read some excellent suggestions as to what you should DO to see that happen.

She wants you to move out? Then move out, and don't give her any guilt or blame over it. Plenty of BS's have won back their spouses who were actively cheating and moved out of the house. Your job isn't nearly as hard as that.

She doesn't want you to quit your job at this point? Then don't. At this point, right now, this really isn't about your job vs. your M. It's about you and your half-hearted efforts vs. your M. If your BW is planning to separate, then I think it's fair to say she's not able to picture the two of you together at this point. If I was in that circumstance, I'd want my H to be able to provide well for our children above anything else. Right now, you'll be able to give her that feeling of security by staying with your job.

Down the road, when your HARD WORK has begun to pay off and RQ is willing to try POJA with you again, that's the time to settle the job question.

As Markos said, you have about 57 hours to choose how you spend. I also really liked his suggestion of offering week after week. Building a whole new life and mindset, and showing consistency, are the foundations for what you need to do.

Markos,

Thanks for the advice. I need to be more persist. My problem a lot of the times is that we will talk about things we need to do but just don't do them. It's my job to make sure that they are getting done!!!

Also I get angery actually more like frustrated and walk away I need to control that and be persistant.

It's my fault I am in this situation with the person that means everything to me.

Thank You so much,

KISS

I understand that helping around the house is part of my job. It always has been. I just have been trying to take as much off her plate as I can. Like today changing my hours at work to take my daughter to the dentist and meeting her a late breakfast after. It may not seem like much but because of my work schedule I know how much pressure is on her so I need to do a better job of constantly looking at what I can do to lighten her plate when ever I can.

Scotland,

We discussed the job situation and we did have a POJA and she said I can't quite or step down from my job for two reasons #1- I worked to hard to get to the point I'm at #2- That the money difference is huge and we need to pay bills and still support our kids. I just want her to realize I would do anything not to lose her.
I realize now that its about putting in the effort of posting counciling and really following the program that is going to make the difference not just changing things in our life.

THANKS,

KISS

Are you going to do this?

You can spend the 15 hours with the children no matter what. Even if your wife does not want to spend UA time with you.

Family Commitment is a big need to a mother!

Careful there Markos, I am a mother, a SAHM mother, and FC is not even in my top 5.

Focus on what RQ's top EN's are, not what you think they should be.

The way to fix this Kiss, is in your commitment level. I repeat from my previous lengthy post, this is not about you going through the motions/crossing something off a list that RQ has built. This is about you enthusiastically DRIVING the force of recovery.

FYI although you did not respond to that post, RQ did on my thread, where she thanked me for writing exactly how she felt. You should be aware of that, in case you are not already.

You seem adamant at telling us what you have done. What you need to start focusing on is what you have NOT done and the enthusiastic, driving attitude you have NOT had. Because what you have NOT done is the reason for your recovery being where it is today.

I second this, especially as a FBW that is well into recovery. I understand wanting kudos for what has been done, but the mindset is wrong when that's where the emphasis is. And that mindset makes all the difference in the world.

Kiss, it's nice to see that you are starting to see where you can improve. Now, my biggest suggestion is to go back through these 32 pages and read what others posted to you. See what you have and haven't done.

When can you get UA time this week? What activities would you be doing to ensure that you are meeting the top 4 intimate ENs?

That would put you in a very small minority. MOST mothers DO have a high need for FC.

It has been mentioned on this thread that FC is one of her top EN.

Scotland,

This week our UA time will be Tomorrow night 6 pm till midnight as we have my buddies rehearsal diner for his wedding thst I'm his best man. Friday 9am till midnight as we have the wedding. Saterday 9 pm till 12. Then sunday will be 2:30 pm till 10 pm with the kids.

The things we will be doing is diner on Thursday and partying with friends. shopping for things for her to wear to the wedding. Then with the kids on Sunday we will be cooking out and playing games outside with the kids.

kiss,

Those activities don't sound like they will allow you to give your wife your undivided attention. During UA time you give each other your undivided attention. That means the focus is on her. You talk to her, listen to her, enjoy some recreation together. You can't do that with a bunch of friends.

Dr. Harley mentions several helpful conditions to help you understand UA time:
the time is alone
not spent with children (who are awake)
spent when you have energy (Dr. Harley says don't count time spent after 11 P.M.)
no electronic devices, movies, or television,
you give each other your undivided attention

The time spent with the kids is family commitment time, which is an important emotional need, but will not have the effect of UA time. You need 15 hours of each (actually you need 30 hours of UA time until both of you rate your marriage as better).

With the addition of markos excellent help this is the easiest for me.

UA time meets the top 4 intimate EN=SF, IC, RC and Affection=15-20 hrs

Kiss, unfortunately, the rehearsal dinner and wedding do NOT fall into UA time. So, so far, you have put about 3 hours into the UA time column, Saturday 9pm-midnight. What will you be doing during this time to meet the 4 intimate ENs?

See, this is why it is important for you to post here. You misunderstand what UA time is, and what it is used for. I understand how frustrating it can be to THINK that you are doing what is expected of you, and not have the desired responses. This is precisely why though, because the focus was misdirected, and misunderstood.

You're starting to put in some thought and planning. That's good. Follow the above excellent advice to re-direct your planning, and your efforts will be more effective.

I do understand that our UA time is supposed to be alone and focused on each other but unfortunity this week is very sucky as far as my schedule and our best friends wedding. Witch I can not skip and I don't believe my wife would either as they are very good friends also.

I am very excited to have fun with her at the rehearsal diner and wedding. She has picked out two dresses that make her look stunning.

Did you ask her?

Then what is your UA plan for next week?

Good question.

It concerns me that you are putting so much effort into your best friend's wedding when your own marriage is dying.

I have a 2:30 appointment with Steve Harley and have called twice so far and he is still unavailable. Excited to talk to him to get more guidance on how to continue to show my wife that I am dedicated to her and our recovery.

My wife wants to know what guarantee I can give her that I am going to follow the program and continue our recovery and not get comfortable and slack off. Any suggestions please!

Thanks,

KISS

My wife is very good friends with my buddy also. She has probably been closer and talked to him more then I have over the years then I have. Besides I'm the best man are you saying I shouldn't go?

She wants you to come up to her and say "hey guess what, I got a baby sitter for that 2-10pm so we're going out, but without the kids!".

In your original post on this thread, she was tired of being just a mom to your kids and wanted to be that girlfriend again. You had time to court other women but not her. So, it really is quite simple in that you need to take the bull by the horns and tell her that YOU want to do things with her and only her, at this/that time.

Do you see the irony in finding time to support your friend's wedding yet struggling to find the time for your own? I'm not saying to skip the dinner - I'm suggesting that this is how the pattern will be viewed.

That the question hasn't come to mind before indicates that you take some things for granted.

SHE'S TELLING YOU WHAT'S WRONG!

The time you are not working, you are with kids, you are with your best friend, she's just a SIDE ACCESSORY to these activities and not the main focus!

She's asking you to date her again! And you don't! So yes, she's giving up.

Just got done with my session with Steve it was deffinitly worth the wait. As you get the feeling of I can do this. Also the guidance and know how. I will update some of the info later.


THANKS,
KISS

Please do.

In addition to the shortage of UA time, there is also a catastrophic lack of POJA in your M. I doubt RQ is going to be willing to change much on her end at this point, since she's already asked you to move out. She likely won't be willing to invest until down the road, when she sees by your actions that you've already been investing plenty.

Even if you aren't successful in getting her participation, at least attempt to POJA everything. Maybe not using the restroom, but everything short of that. Taking the kids to the park? Run it through POJA. If she's not enthusiastic, don't do it. Going grocery shopping? POJA. Watching a TV show? Honestly, you don't have time for that right now.

My continuing hope for your M is based on you working hard, working smart (targeting the areas of highest EN and biggest LB's), and being willing to take a pretty large helping of rejection for quite some time, even for your best efforts.

This would have been a much easier path the first time around. RQ was tired and hurt, but willing to believe you would change. She's not so willing to believe that any more. You can still overcome that, with consistent work over time.

Posting here is one of your best resources for staying on track.

So we had our friends wedding rehearsal last night and everything was ok. I wish my wife was more involved in conversation though. I have had the same two best friends for the 15 years that we have been together.

All of us were going to go out after but my wife didn't feel like going out once we were getting ready to leave. So we went home and got the kids settled in their room. We told them that we were going to lock our selves in our bedroom so we can spend time together.

We played cards and talked for a while. I

Kiss, she doesn't want to have to tell you that she doesn't want to go out with everyone after, that she wants to go home with you. Do you realize this? I'm not sure you realize how much she is detaching right now, asking you to move out, and you are still not seeing that she needs YOU to say, "sorry everybody, I want to spend time with my wife instead", rather than for her to be bummed/upset and have to pry it out of you like a dentist pulling teeth.

You know what is the absolute worst feeling for a woman, particularly a mom who doesn't get much time alone with her husband? Feeling like you have to whine, cry, beg, withdraw, detach, in order for your husband to actually want to spend time with you. Nobody wants to feel like they have to do these things to get their spouse to actually want to be alone with them.

Do you understand that this is how she feels? That even though you eventually DID go home, the path to getting there was very hurtful and hardly impressive?

How would you feel if everyone was served dinner and you got table scraps at the end after complaining for it? Satisfying dinner?

Maybe because she didn't want to be there and had other stuff on her mind? Not everyone enjoys putting on an act. It's like people dancing while their ship is sinking.

When I told my husband I wanted a separation (over a non-affair related issue) about 6 months ago, because I felt that he had not put our family first over other things, I could have witnessed a multi-car pileup in front of my face and not even noticed. A woman who is in love with her husband but feels she must separate because he does not love her back, cannot focus on anything or anyone but the pain. There are still days today (btw this issue was resolved) where I find myself staring into space because I can't believe it came down to bringing that subject up. A re-living of that brief conversation, it was the worst moment of my life.

If I was at a wedding dinner/party only 3-4 days later, I would have been a numb statue. If he had wanted me to converse more or worse, actually wanted to "go out after" with OTHERS, that would have been just another nail in the coffin. The fact that this dinner/party even went ahead has probably reinforced her decision. Be aware of this, kiss.

It being a wedding rehearsal was, above all, probably the worst venue.

It was likely a hell of a reminder of what might have been.

Going to the actual wedding is going to be even worse.

Yep, I still remember the time I was watching TV with AJ during the A, and broke down and cried because it showed a wedding on the screen. I can't even imagine how hard it would be to actually go to wedding festivities while still reeling from infidelity and planning to separate.

Which brings us right back to the POJA. While I don't assume this was a violation, and it's possible that she was enthusiastic about going...how did you handle it when you saw her apparent lack of enthusiasm?

That would have been a great opportunity to pull her aside and say, "Hey, it looks to me like you're not real enthused about being here. If that's the case, why don't the two of us sneak off and go do something by ourselves?"

See, your chances of having her actually enthusiastic about anything involving you are pretty slim right now. It's still important that you make the effort to discover where the POJA lies. Even if you don't gain her cooperation with this process, true success lies in the effort itself, and in the change of your habits from big ole IB lovebusters to thoughtful POJA attempts.

Accept any rejection with grace. Time is on your side, as long as you're working on what needs fixing.

Suggestion; follow the program and don't slack off.


Begin practicing PoJA with each and every thing you do, each and every day.


At work, thinking of buying a burger at lunch? Call your wife; "Honey, I am thinking about buying a burger for lunch, how do you feel about that?"

If she says she isn't comfortable with it, don't do it.


"Honey, I am thinking about stopping for gas at the station on 37th and vine tonight, how do you feel about that?"

If she isn't comfortable, don't do it.


These small things may seem "trivial," but they are part of building two habits; transparency, and PoJA.

You could also add parental controls to your cell phone, and go through your allowed list with your wife; add only her and other essential people to whom she aggrees to add. This provides an EP for your cell phone use.

In a healthy M, you would probably not need to POJA choices like what to have for lunch or where to buy gas. (Unless other factors were in play, such as a person who's had a heart attack trying to POJA a burger with their spouse.)

By practicing on trivial items, like whether to by one head of lettuce at the supermarket or two, Romaine or iceburg, it gives you a chance to try out POJA when the stakes are very low. Then you'll have the skill to POJA on more important and emotionally charged issues.

I discussed the wedding and the rehearsal dinner and wedding party last night. I also had her read the last three pages of my thread. She said that what is being posted about her not wanting to be at either won was not true. She said that at the rehearsal dinner she was just quite due to not feeling well the last couple of days as she has had a head cold. With the wedding she said that she had no issues being there and that no matter what was going on between us that she would have still wanted to be there because she is friends with the bride and groom. Then after the wedding reception she made me go out to a club with our friends when I was asking her to just go home.

I it was a great couple of days as even though I was in the wedding party I still made my beautiful wife my priority. She looked amazing by the way!!! She asked me not to go to crazy drinking as all of my friends and I are known to due. So I didn't . They kept questioning me if something was wrong and trying to pressure me. It was funny because its usually the other way around. I never gave in. My focus is on pleasing my wife and I think my friends realized that.

I am not one to dance to much. Maybe a slow dance or two but we were out on the dance floor all jumping around together. It was a great time. The only time I wasn't with my wife was for her smoke breaks. Witch are frequent at time. I would go outside with her once in a while but it is something that bothers me really bad.

Then yesterday I worked 6am till 3pm and after we meet at the grocery store so we could buy what we were going to cookout for dinner. I was very excited about getting out of work and seeing her after the prior two days were amazing. She walked into the store and she looked so great even though the kids were driving her nuts.

When we were home she started dinner and I worked on trying to fix the dish washer. I kept stopping her for a huge and kiss. The rest of the night was great as after dinner and getting the kids to bed we sat down and talked about the wedding and some of the feedback from my thread.

We also went through some of the threads on marriage builders that she has been posting on and it makes you realize how thick headed you are when you foggy. I forgot the name of the female posting but the husband was still in between and she seemed like she was settling to at least have something from him even though he wasn't in it 100%.

Why do we put our spouses through his? How do we become so lost that we don't rationalize what we are doing in most cases to our best friends!!!!!


KISS

Neak,

I did discuss this with Rocketqueen last night. It is something that we do need to work on more. I feel now that every time I make a decision I do think about her and how it would affect her but I think that POJA does add to transparency. It lets your loved one see that you doe have their best interests in mind.

THANKS,

KISS

What is your UA schedule for this week? What will you be doing during this time?

Make a conscious effort to acknowledge POJA times, and when they are needed. Use POJA. Take the lead on this.

My wife wants me to go back through my thread from the beginning and see what my thought process was and answer any unanswered questions. This is going to be tough as I read my first post a couple of weeks ago and I couldn't believe my mind set and how lost I really was at that time. So I will answer any questions that I think are relavant to where we are now.

KISS

2WANDA,

Question from page 2 of my thread

Now looking back the biggest problem I had with Thanksgiving was that I knew what was going on was wrong. My wives sister in-law warned me that my relationship with the other female would become more then friends because we were to close. She was right!!!

Another big part was the shame of how I was treating my wife. I would not give her any attention I was cold and not responsive to her begging me to work on our marriage and family. I was a real SH**Y person. I turned into someone I was not.

My mother in-law kept saying that I was on steroids!! I thought it was because I started to go to the gym and work out like crazy. It was my release. Now I think back and I believe she was saying it because I didn't have control of my self. Almost like I was possesed. I was a mess mentally and didn't know it. I thought I was on top of my world but what I was doing was destroying it.

KISS

From page 6 of my thread

Originally posted by Logans Run:

You dont win her back, you EARN her back. Words are nice but they are hollow and mean nothing. Actions, EP and just compensation.

Logans run you were absolutely correct. I reaalize now its not about trying to meet my wives EN'S to win her back its about working on recovery and being the leader in that recovery in order to EARN HER BACK.

KISS

So have you sat down with her and asked her "what do you need from me? What can I do to make you feel safe?"

Then when she tells you write it down and just listen.

Then come up with a plan to do the things she needs for you to do?

OK. So you now see that your shame and guilt went a long way to driving a wedge into the family.

You felt guilty around her family. So you blamed her family.

Recognising that is a huge step.

Your next one would be to make amends to these people. How would RQ like you to make things up to the family?

Just as you're facing (and need to continue to face) rejection from RQ, you need to face rejection from your IL's, as well.

They were hurt by this. You ripped their hearts out and stomped on them by your treatment of their daughter/sister. Since they weren't in love with you once upon a time, it takes even longer to fill up their Love Bank past the level of disgust. (Dr. H says everyone we know has a $LB balance with us, spouses extremely high, close family and friends very high, acquaintances low. From what I've seen, estranged IL's tend to have a negative balance, on both sides of the fence.)

They may not even let you make any deposits, but the attempt is necessary for you anyway, if you're serious about making things right.

Brainhurts,

What she wants from me is to be involved and lead our recovery. Me posting is is very important to her because she says it will give me the guidance and keep me focused on what I should be doing.

Thanks,
KISS

And you've been posting! Don't rest on your laurels, though, all two olive leaves' worth. Do everything else she has asked of you - do it with promptness (as prompt as anything can be that is already this late), and a willing spirit.

So do you think you're taking the lead now, kiss?

UA TIME. What's this upcoming week's plan?

Sunday, Hours, what you'll be doing.
Monday, Hours, what you'll be doing.
Tuesday, Hours, what you'll be doing.

I think you can see where I'm going with this.

Brainhurts,

Yes! I have been on my thread Three or four times a day. Most importantly I like it. I keep checking just to seee what you guys say. Ihave been making sure we are getting time together. Even if we have to lock our selves in our room to play cards or just get alone time. I want to make my wife happy. What ever it takes.

THANKS,
KISS

this is a good idea.....

but then you answer it with;


You continue to mention how much you desire to make your wife happy and yet, you are going to deliver only what YOU think is relevant.

This is why you continue to fail!

Your wife wants you to take the time to answer ALL unanswered questions!


You even start a topic like the next quote below and never follow up? Whats up with that?


You have good intentions, I'm sure.....

But have you ever heard what the road to destruction is paved with?

It's paved with good intentions!


Actions and follow through are what paves the road to recovery!

Kiss,

At LEAST a dozen times you've asked for help.

And those offering you help have two recurring questions of you....

1) Please list ALL your EP's

2) Please list your schedule of UA time (Scotty asks this almost every week)

You want help?

We need this info as a good starting point in order to help!

Personally, I think you're a game player and until I see you do some of the easy work, like 1 & 2 above, my opinion won't change.

You're in management, right.

What would you do if one of your subordinates came to your morning meeting, listened to what your needs/expectations were for the day, took the list of needs/expectations to be completed by them, and then did nothing on the list.
Yet at the end of the day they told you how great your list was and how much they look forward to reading what you have outlined for tomorrow.

What would you say to this employee?

Hi Kiss,

Do you have me on ignore?

And, perhaps me?

kiss, what's been going on? How have you been implementing MB plans into your daily life? How much UA time have you scheduled for this week? How much did you manage last week?

Are you serious about wanting to recover your marriage?

Sorry I haven't been ignoring anyone. The scheduling of UA time has been difficult we have been spending as much time together as possible. We have been spending time at home hidding from the kids when ever possible. We went out on Friday after work we meet at the mall as we were killing time to go out to Fridays for dinner. Then after we went to the movies as the wife has been wanting to see the movie Ted. Witch really isn't her kind of movie. It wasn't good. Its been hard to get away as my step daughter has been stuck watching the kids and its not fair to her as she is 17 and just got her liscense to drive. So we haven't been able to plan to much in advance. Plus I keep asking my wife what we should due and she says why do we always have to due something! She is getting frustrated by our kids. 6 YR old boy and 8 in one week girl that thinks she is the boss and runs the house. The fighting is constant.

KISS

the kids are a great opportunity to POJA, kiss, so it's a good thing! it's very important parents are on the same page and act as a unit. kids are very smart; they know when they can play one parent off the other.

perhaps the two of you could spend some time POJAing how to parent (you know, how to react in different circumstances. for instance, i don't give our DD any $$ unless H enthusiastically agrees), especially if you have a tiny one running the household! it will help you meet in the middle, and it feels good to work as a team.

UA is hard when you have kids. but kids need to be put in their place. the M comes first - it benefits the kids. if kids have to wait, do less stuff, entertain themselves (please do not let them do this on the computer), they learn how to be more grown up. that's what growing up is all about.

i urge you and RQ to give it a go. it'll help. and help give you more UA time alone. can you afford to pay the DD17 to babysit? it may be less of a burden on her if she gets something out of it. it doesn't have to be money - negotiate a "fee," whether it's time out on weekend nights, some itunes, or whathaveyou.

Kiss, it is important to schedule this UA time. The movie actually doesn't count towards UA time. So, you had what, about an hour of UA time at Fridays? And here and there while the kids are running around the house, and you are locked in your room? THis isn't what DrH had in mind when he talked about UA time.

So, I ask again, what is your UA time schedule for this coming week? Please, write it out, day by day, how many hours, and what activities you will be doing, and what ENs you will be meeting.

Also, HPB asked for your EP list. Where is it?

I was going to suggest the same thing as Letty in regards to DSD17. Give her some cash, some gas money, etc. She's already been through 1 divorce, I think you may be surprised at the things she will do to ensure that this marriage doesn't end the same way.

So that's it?

You come back and tell us about last Fridays date w/your wife.

No answers to any of my posts?

my EP's
protect my emotional needs
don't get close to females
not getting personal with females
not being alone with females

weeks schedule

tuesday our daughters birthday going to dinner

thursday we are going to walk the walk way bridge about a 6 mile walk

Saturday labor day party

Sunday having daughters family birthday party

KISS

HOW are you going to demonstrate these to RQ? what ACTIONS are you taking?

erm, i would not be impressed with this at all. looks like all family time, no alone time! what are you doing the other days? also, bday parties don't last all day. do you have time scheduled around it/them?

You don't have to be gone, doing wild, crazy, (expensive!) dating things to make this count for UA time. In fact, some of the best UA time is at home, for free.

Walking the bridge sounds really good, a nice mix of RC and Conversation, maybe with some Admiration thrown in. But what about the other EN's, some of which cannot be met in public? You don't need to detail on here PLEASE don't detail on here what you're going to do with that time, but block it out and post it as "on this day, x hours, at home without kids" or something like that.

Kiss,

Again,

You struggle with UA time because you don't make it a priority. Why does your daughter need two birthday parties? One with her parents AND one with her family? Do you understand you are facing a future of permanent 2-4 birthday parties because her parents have different homes? Labour day party? Why is that taking priority over UA time?

What does UA time actually mean to you?? Do you understand "undivided attention"?

Undivided attention:

Spent alone
Children and friends not present
No electronic devices


Tip: if your attention is divided, you are not giving undivided attention.

Thank you for your reply.

Kiss, EP's are a very important part of recovery. They are generally one of the few ways to provide just compensation for our infidelity.
What you've listed out is not enough to make any betrayed spouse feel safe. When our Betrayed Spouse doesn't feel safe, they will withdraw from us. I know that's not what either of you want.

I just bumped a thread on Extraordinary Precaution that I want you to read and use to work from. Please take the time to revise and re-post your EP's after reading the thread. Do this soon, OK!

Several have commented about this. Some time back Neak and some others had a thread going of things to do during UA....
Affordable things....

Maybe someone can find and bump it? If not, maybe another one could be started.

Maybe, YOU could start one.... ... asking about suggestions for UA time.... from how to schedule it, when to schedule it and what activities others have found helpful in their own marriages.

[/quote]

Several have commented about this. Some time back Neak and some others had a thread going of things to do during UA....
Affordable things....

Maybe someone can find and bump it? If not, maybe another one could be started.

Maybe, YOU could start one.... ... asking about suggestions for UA time.... from how to schedule it, when to schedule it and what activities others have found helpful in their own marriages. [/quote]



sounds like a great idea!

If it's not affordable, I'm not doin it.

here are some UA suggestions recently given. i know there's a better thread around somewhere...bh?

awesome weekends

ua time

free ua time ideas

Does your local paper have an entertainment section, KISS?

I know ours does. It includes several cheap (if not free) activities going on throughout the week. Our town has about 100k people, so it's not like it's a big-city only thing.

Some things that we have;

Stand up comics
Assorted dances and dance classes
Winery tours
Auctions and dinners
Mystery dinners
Movies in the park (summer time)
Poetry readings
Art galleries
Concerts


The majority of these things are actually on weeknights.

My wife and I have also just drove to the top of the mountain passes in the middle of the night for no other reason than to... drive to the top of a mountain pass in the middle of the night (what you do when you get there is up to you and yours!).



The fact of the matter here is, KISS, that you have to get off your kiester and put your marriage up front. If you do not, your wife is going to leave you.

That's not a threat. It's the reality of having a broken marriage, and introducing infidelity as the turd-cherry on a crap sundae, buddy.


If there is a good man inside you, then your moping and inaction may be due to having to look at your collection of failures.


Let me tell you, sir, that the best of men have their own collection of failures.

"I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. 26 times, I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed." - Michael Jordan


You, sir, can either lay in the mud, moping about your failures... or you can pick yourself up, get out there, and SUCCEED. You have the plan. You have a coach, and peers to support your marriage.


What are you going to do with it?

Have you read these?
Extraordinary Precautions
Recreational Enjoyment Inventory

I do understand the importance of UA time I have gone and taken a five day weekend in the end of september so the wife and I can go way. We are looking at going to Canada. Niagra Falls is about 6 and a half hours away.

On one of the links for UA time it goes through how to ideas it went through best ideas to schedule UA time. It goes through writting out your schedule for the week as far as work. Then writting out your UA time. Then putting everything else around it. This idea does help.

Scheduling a vacation to Niagara Falls is wonderful. It will allow some time together. But you still must plan what you'll be doing during that time. What are you going to do for the long drive? Books on CD? Music? Set up some conversations? Plan it out!

I do NOT think you are understanding UA time though.

Here is a link to Dr. Harley's explanation of "The Policy Of Undivided Attention" ---> LINK

Please read it all.

And another thing;

The most important things for you to be doing, IMVHO they are in an order that is important to follow.

1) No Contact with OW

2) Extraordinary Precautions - Read the thread linked a few days ago on EP's & write out a comprehensive list and post it ASAP

3) STUDY the books, "His Needs, Her Needs" & "Love Busters"

4) Identify Your wife's top 5 needs - in order of importance.

5) Identify 10 ways your wife likes each need met and start doing some of those things daily. Ask your wife for feedback once a week in regards to how you are doing with meeting those needs.

6) Schedule UA time every week. Between 20-30 hours alone with your wife EVERY WEEK.

7) Learn the top 5 ways your wife prefers to be soothed during triggers. This is not the same as meeting her EN's - This is part of helping to heal the wounds of your infidelity.

8) Learn how to share the details of your day - Who you talked to, what was discussed, what you did... DETAILS!


This is important!

These are the basic steps necessary for your marriage to recover.

Being interactive on a forum requires participation from you on a regular basis, OK.

What steps do you need help with??

Working on trying to read papa bears threads. Deffinity good info. I have been trying to spend as much time with the wife alone when ever possible. I went to her job and drove with her to her counciling session just so we had time together. It's a 45 minute drive about. Then coming home she left her car at her work place so that drive home is about an hour and 10 minutes. The next morning I took her to work and left my car and took hers for an oil change. Witch lead to four new tires and $600 later. I also cleaned it out. OMG the kids and her had so much crap in their as I removed four bags of STUFF! I also vacuumed it out. It was well over due.
We still have issues with someone too watch the kids as we took advantage of my step daughter watching the kids last night when we went to friendly's after my wife's counciling session and she wasn't happy with us when we got home. We told her we would be home around 7:30 and we got back around 8:30.
My wife is taking my step daughter to a 5k race she is running in about 2 hours away on friday night. They are staying over as the race is Saturday. My wife wants me to go with them but we have no one to watch the kids.
still struggling to get time together!

KISS

Some good stuff kiss.

On #5 of what HPB suggested.

Have you asked RQ for feedback? What has she said?

Can you get any UA time at home? Are the kids old enough to entertain themselves for a bit?

We do go through the emotional needs questioniare every couple of months. But deffinity need to visit that more often. I have noticed that her needs I was lower in the first time the next time we did it they were higher but the things I was high in dropped. More constant feedback would help keep a more constant focus on all of her top emotional needs.

We do get some UA time at home We are planning on playing a game in our room tonight with some wine and talk about our plans of buying a house in Florida. Our daughter just turned 8, our son is 6 and my step daughter is 17. The kids are pretty good with keeping busy as long as they don't get to close to each other!! lol

Having a lot of issues. Rocketqueen says she is done. I have been frustrated by her the last month. I haven't brought up the lack of her meeting my emotional needs as she has become distant and emotionally disconnected from me again. I feel that she will always be this way. She asked me if she was meeting my emotional need for sex a couple of days ago. I didn't want to tell her no so I told her she was and that she is incredable. When we went through the emotional needs questionairre I put down I need physical interaction 4-5 times a week she said that she would 3 times a week. It has been 4 times in just about a month and a half.

Also she has been very seperated from me in the same time frame when I come home she is disappointing. I come home very excited to see her and I get that cold no aknowledgement treatment that I have become so acustom to the last couple of years. This drives me insane. I said something a couple of days ago and she said that I should grow up. I love my wife but I'm so lost. She keeps talking about "following the program" and she likes to pick and choose what is right or what should be important. Dr. Harley said in one of my appointments how important it is for my wife to talk to him and be part of the counceling sessions because people get that I know the program kind of thought process. She doesn't think she is the one needing help but it is crucial.

KISS

Your taker is taking over, you haven't been honest with her when she asked you an honest question, And you are doing the things you would want done for you, rather than focusing on what she wants. Sounds like there are clear reasons why it isn't working. So, are you committed to radical honesty and need meeting, keeping your taker in check? Maybe if you offer/request redoing the EN questionnaire it would help you both get on track?

Hey, kiss.

So does it boil down to you getting frustrated that your, um, "needs" aren't being met and you, in turn, don't feel like doing anything for your wife?

Assuming that the answer is yes, what would you say if someone said "Why should she have sex with me?"

It is true that both parties need to be working the program for genuine recovery to occur.

What I get from reading both your posts and RQ's is that RQ has been reluctant to go all in on recovery for several key reasons: (1) You've never offered real just compensation for the affair. She never saw the remorseful, hat in hand - I'll do anything to make this up to you, for as long as it takes attitude that a BW needs from her WH. (2) Or really 1A, you never took the reins and lead recovery like she needed you to do in order to demonstrate the repentance mindset of #1.

I mentioned some time ago this mindset on your thread but you never responded.

It's important to keep in mind that while MB is all about BOTH parties meeting needs, etc... it is up to the FWS to give just compensation before the real work can begin.

It's been my experience, both IRL and on the forums, that mistakes in recovery are much easier rectified when that mindset is there and the FBW knows it!

For the near future I would encourage you to dive into meeting as many of her needs with no expectation of havin yours met.

I understand sex drive. I have a high sex drive and was in a basically sexless marriage. But I have learned something along the way. There is a saying, men spell sex s-e-x. Women spell sex t-a-l-k.
I have read books on this subject and women are much more receptive to sex when their emotional needs are being met. It's the way they are wired.

But let's face it. You can go without sex and try to meet emotional needs and win your wife's heart back. There are monks and soldiers and cripples in hospitals that haven't had sex for years so I'm confident you can do it for a few months if needed

Now if you absolutely can't live without sex for a few weeks then that another matter that needs addressed.
I dealt with that myself when my marriage turned sexless

I object!

Only the first steps of just compensation are included before recovery ("the real work") begins. Extraordinary Precautions (including confession to exposure targets) and Transparency are given, and Recovery - creating an interdependent, romantic marriage - is a PART of Just Compensation.

In this mindset, Just Compensation is only met when; Extraordinary Precautions and Transparency are upheld, AND an interdependent, romantic marriage is MAINTAINED.




Kiss,


I told you once, I'll tell you again; your wife is going to leave you if you don't up your damn game. She had license to leave the marriage before when you were a negligent husband. You gave her even more with every adulterous boundary you crossed, and you have done very little to convince her that she should stay.

Your wife is going to LEAVE YOU. Friends of fine feathers and beaks will support her.

YOUR CONSISTENT ACTION FROM NOW UNTIL DEATH MUST BE CONVINCING OF OTHERWISE, OR YOU HAVE NO DAMN GROUND TO STAND ON.


Quit your freaking moping, get off of your poopchute, and get to work, or say goodbye to your wife, dude.

Time to quit feeling sorry for yourself for the freaking mess YOU made of your life, and clean it the hell up!

kiss,

It's been zero times in five months over here. Asking for this need of mine to be met right now would be a gigantic Love Buster.

SAA advises staying in Plan A for 3 - 6 months for a husband. During this time, expect to get ZERO of your emotional needs met. Dr Harley advises this because men can handle 3 - 6 months without all of their top ENs being met.

If you want your ENs to be met, the proper path is to meet your spouse's ENs to the best of your ability. Eventually your spouse will fall in love with you, and won't be able to help but meet your ENs.

Don't short-circuit the process and do NOT make selfish demands to get your needs met in the short term.

OK..so, I used the terms more loosely but I agree. I need to be more mindful of my wording, even when I'm in a hurry.

What I was referring to specifically was that Kiss did not offer up just compensation enough for RQ to fully jump into the waters of recovery with both feet. There MUST be enough reason for the BS to do so. In the case of a WH and BW, Dr. H. says that the WH must be fully remorseful - hat in hand attitude - willing to do whatever/however long. This was not Kiss' mindset in wanting to make it up to RQ. He wouldn't even apologize to her family, for instance - knowing she wanted him to.

There has not been a lot of evidence to support Kiss' remorse being that he has not been leading recovery efforts. RQ needed to see that before she was going to go all in herself.

Of course Just Compensation continues into recovery and beyond... The point was, there has to be enough just compensation for the BS to be willing to begin the hard work and the WS to continue providing Just Compensation.

It is slightly different, according to Dr. H, in terms of mindset as to whether the WS was the husband or the wife. He maintains that you may not see the level of remorse in a WW as opposed to a WH but a BW needs to see the "whatever it takes, however long it takes" attitude in a WH to begin recovery.

Something kiss may want to remember is that the timeline for Plan A for a betrayed wife is 3 weeks.

For a betrayed husband, it's 3 - 6 months.

In other words, wayward husbands need to get their act together FAST if they don't want to be on the receiving end of Plan B.

And if it's been dragging on for ages (seems like at least forever, and I'm not even the one who's been dealing with it), the BS's $LB is bound to be bone-dry. Maybe even seriously in the red. It's hard to give an adequate sense of urgency through the computer, but this situation has been urgent for months.

I'm still waiting to see overwhelming action. There's nothing that I would like better than to see this recovery finally get off the ground, and this marriage to succeed.

Kiss, it has been 2 days now since you posted on your thread, asking for help because you know RQ is at the end of her rope. Several people have, again, tried to respond to your post with advice. Meanwhile you seem to be MIA again...

2 days does not seem like a lot of time. But in your situation, 2 days is an insurmountable time. This has to change like, 5 minutes ago. You do not have the luxury of posting and then taking a couple days off to just live your life and not worry about the next step.

YOU need to win HER back. And not the other way around. Do you get that? I have no doubt that when she sees you actually put the effort into doing just that, SHE will invest her own self into recovery. She would not be here if she didn't want the exact same thing you want, but she should not be the one to fix this mess and you know it.

Even if everything RQ was saying to us was a bold face lie, what we KNOW from your own posts is that you come on here, post, receive MANY responses, respond to very few and seem to take very little advice or in any way try to educate yourself on the program in a proactive way, then disappear for a month. Then come on here again with a post that RQ is at the end of her rope, rinse, repeat.

This is a half a$$ effort. If we can SEE this kind of half a$$ effort on your end, I can only imagine what RQ sees on her end. That is not just compensation. No BW will ever be able to recover and be happy under these circumstances. You seem to think that RQ just can't be happy and invested, but you have given her no reason to.

Dude we are all really, really hoping for your recovery. But nobody can do the work for you, including RQ.

I will have rocket queen do the emotional questionnaire with me tonight. I definitely think it helps keep me on track with meeting her emotional needs. But a lot of her issues seem to be me not posting enough. I do read everyone's posts and some of the other threads also.

KISS

I think some what but not totally. What bothers me is sometimes her lack of excitement to see me. I do work sucky hours and its hard sometimes. Like when I work an 9am to 8pm shift and I've been anxious to see her and when I get home I don't get the same kind of reaction back it really sucks bad. I know I messed up and I'm trying to make it up to her everyday.

I don't want her to do it because she feels she has to. I want her to really be excited and anxious to see me. I know that posting is the most important thing to her and it doesn't matter what I do as far as meeting her emotional needs that doesn't seem to have any weight to it. No matter if I try to have the house all clean when she comes home or spend a lot of time with the kids (witch I always do) or anything else it seems to be just about the posting.


KISS

Because here is where you get the best advice. The people here know what to do!

The kids can't help you save your marriage.

Filling ENs is great. But lovebusters take all that out.

Would YOU be happy to see you?

KISS,


Quick question; did you choose your name for the familiar acornym Keep It Simple Silly?

Then follow your namesake, sir!

If you want your wife to be excited to see you, you need to create reason for her to be excited, OK?


Firs and foremost; what are you doing to make those weekly UA targets? Avoiding Love Busters is critical, but stopping LB$ withdrawals really only becomes effective when you are also making deposits. Meeting regular emotional needs is good for maintaining a balance, but meeting Intimate Emtional Needs is what skyrockets your balance.


Sit your butt down each Sunday with Rocket, and plan out 20 hours each week of solid UA time. Meeting 15 hours a week takes a little over 2 hours each day, so getting 2-3 days a week of 4 hours or more takes you to 20 rather quickly.

March into your boss's office and tell him; my marriage is a wreck, and this job is MEANINGLESS if I don't have an intact family. See what can be done to get you OUT of the office, and HOME more often.


Also, I suggest you begin following this list;


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5010_qa.html




Doing these things will lead to her being excited to see you, because it will lead to her having Romantic Love for you.



Or, you can keep the pity party going, and your wife will leave you.


You are a negligent husband, sir. You either fix it, or face the consequences.

Quit feeling sorry for yourself, and man the hell up.

KISS,


Get on the board, every day.

I will dedicate myself to trying to help you, every day.

You can notify on this post and request my email, and email me personally (that you have posted) every day, and I will come and post to you. Every day.

I want your marriage to succeed, sir. And I will put the work in here where I have more experienced backup. But you have to meet halfway here.

It won't be nice. I'll kick your butt up one side of the field and down the other, but I am willing to give that to you if you get off your duff and work.

Deal?

RQ is disappointed, hurt and betrayed. You did that. Accept it.



RQ is disappointed, hurt and betrayed. You did that. Accept it.

The good news is that after months and months of really hard work, you won't be a wayward husband any more.

You'll be a former wayward husband who follows MB all the way. Whose moved mountains to make it up to his betrayed wife. Even when she had no heart to encourage him. But he carried on.

THAT is admirable. Not somebody who works all the hours god sends and then wonders why his wife is unhappy. Its kinda obvious why.

Are you that man? Can you keep going when all seems lost?

Kiss - here's the thing. Minimal efforts do not recover a marriage. When a wayward takes the path of least resistance, they cheat again.

I have a friend who followed Marriage Builders plan; she did an extraordinary Plan A. Husband quite a bit like you, gave a lot of talk to winning her back, but what he really wanted was more Plan A. Endless Plan A.

She fatigued. Life happened. And he left her carrying most of the load. He wanted Plan A treatment without doing his part.

So then...

He cheated again.

And now the poor sap is wondering where the h*ll is his Plan A?

He was a minimal efforts/big talk kind of guy. He never did step up and WIN her back. He gave up OW and expected endless Plan A on that level of commitment. He was still thinking he was entitled, instead of realizing the magnitude of his assault on his marriage and abuse of his wife.

You're still thinking of what you're not getting, instead of what you're not giving.

Good summary.

BTW Kiss, just a tip but I would skip the EN inventory. You know her ENs, you know what she wants.

Less talk, more action. ESPECIALLY when she is giving you nothing in return.

You owe her.

holdherhand,

That's a great list I do most of it pretty constantly. As I am a pretty affectionate person.The hardest one for me on a constant bases is calling her a couple of times a day when I'm at work. I do call her most of the time but sometimes I get so busy at work. I know its definitely important to her and I get angry at my self because I get so caught up in the chaos at work. I miss a text message or am late to respond to her but not to often.

KISS

Holdherhand,

Sounds good to me. I get very involved in posting but once I work a couple of long days or I don't get a lot of feedback I seem to lose my focus. I know that I need to be committed and stay on track as this is the most important thing to my wife so it has to be the most important thing to me! I just need to be smacked to keep focused. As I am an assistant store Manager for a very large retail company and it's very hectic as their is a lot going on at once. One of my associates called me Dory from Finding Nemo as I am known to lose my focus once in a while. So it would be appreciated.

THANKS,
KISS

You have 14 pages of feedback, much of which has never been addressed. I would suggest you start there.

kiss, i count 411 posts on your thread. over 400! and you feel like you're not getting fb? really?

i don't think i've ever seen a post from you where you've said, "here is what we're doing for UA time this week." or "here's how i met RQs ENs this week."

it's like your thread is a .gif, forever on loop. "here i am, needing help. help please." several posts of help. crickets from you. then, "here i am, needing help. help please." and so on, and so on. if we feel this frustrated with you, i can only imagine how royally pissed off RQ must feel! do you realise how lucky you are she hasn't just walked out the door and called it quits?

she must really love you to keep trying and keep trying. but that doesn't mean you can keep taking her love for granted, because it WILL run out.

one of these days, your post is going to be, "help! RQ has left me and i don't know what to do!"

kiss, if anything, i just feel sad for you. you seem to live to work, and man, your life is so much *more* than work! as a supervisor, there has to be *some* way to deal with your workload and job-related stress.

but you see, no one is going to come take your hand and walk you through it. you need to deal, man! you need to get your priorities straight and take the action (many actions) that need to occur if you want to stay in your M.

it's simple, really. if you don't pull finger, your M isn't going to be there anymore. RQ certainly has a boatload of patience that i don't possess. but eventually, that patience will have run dry, her lovebank will be so far in the red that you will *never* be able to fill it up again, and she's going to walk away from you with a light heart, because the end of her M will only be a relief to her.

i'm sorry to be so harsh on you, but kiss, i just want to scream "wake the eff up!" it' not rocket science! you know her needs, you know how to fill them, you have this magnificent resource available to you, you have an *amazing* offer from HHH, and you just...aren't.

I worked retail for 10 years for one of the top 3 grocers. At one time I was aiming for management. And then I watched my favorite assistant manager. I was 24 at the time, he was 26. He had 4 kids, and his wife was a SAHM, as well as homeschooling the kids. He worked a similar schedule to what you are doing, 10+ hours a day, 6-7 days a week.

Eventually, his wife packed up her bags and told him; "Us, or the job. We are moving back to the other side of the state."

They now have 6 kids, and he works title and escrow. His experience in management in that company got him that job, as the particular chain I worked for had an excellent reputation for their management training at that time.

For myself, I stopped and looked; almost every member of management I ever worked with was in poor health, was divorced, or had addiction problems. The demand of the job was too much to maintain a healthy lifestyle.


Look around you Kiss, and ask yourself; is this job, this career worth my health and my family? Am I doing this because it is what I want to do, or because I think it is the best I can do?

One of my former managers stepped down to checking and is happier and healthier than he was in management. In fact, he and his wife run the youth group I send all my daughters to.


Your marriage requires more of your time, Kiss. You have to be the one to stand up and prioritize that. Ok?

Ok, anecdote aside...

My offer is not unconditional. You had, in my opinion, the BEST possible board member for your situation trying to support you in HPB - and it seems he's tossed up his hands at this point.

I'm not your best bet. I may be your last chance. Ok? What I can see is a bilateral lack of motivation here - the BEST bet would be for you two to get enrolled with either the home study or online course, as both of you are in a motivatonal swamp.

I will try to help you to the best of my ability, but understand my ability; I am a peer, not a professional. I have only been here 2 years. I have only worked with written material, and have never been directly coached, nor done the MB weekend. I only participate in; 101, SAA, In Recovery, and occasional bits in other topics. There are dozens of better posters. You had the best, now you get the rest.

My conditions; you WILL post every day. If you are not going to post, you will post to notify me that you will not be posting. You can post from a smart phone in the hospital, or from a highway rest stop, so the only excuse I will find acceptable is this; "I will be out of the home with my wife." Since she is here and posting, I will be able to find out if you make a false claim on this condition.

When I request information, you will provide it. When I request you do some "homework" you will do it. Again, these things can be verified if you falsify.

If you fail to meet my conditions, I will place you on ignore and leave you to your own devices and the consequences carried by them without regret.

While I carry out this commitment, I will not read your wife's thread, and will only post to her if I have reason to believe you are less than honest with me, at which point, see the previous paragraph. My MB time will be FOCUSED on helping you specifically. That time is limited, don't waste it.


As I post, it is early morning Sunday, September 23rd, 2012. As it is Sunday, today you will sit down with your wife and your work schedule. You will plan out a minimum of 2 hours each night for UA time, and you will plan a minimum of 3 nights for a date. I don't care if it's a happy meal and a walk in the park, do it.

You have another request you will make that is part of this agreement; you will request 30 minutes when you get home from work to come here and read, and post. When you get home from work, you will follow the affection need meeting list - walk in, kiss your wife, tell her you love her, then come to read and post.

I concur with both Letty and HHH.

Just to add - it seems to me that whenever someone pops up and asks questions you don't want to answer, or you don't like his or her viewpoint, you simply ignore the post.

Your best bet for success here is in paying especially close attention to those posts!

holdherhand,

our schedule for the week is as follows:

day my work schedule---our UA time
monday 9am-8pm 9pm-11pm
tuesday 9am-8pm 9pm-11pm
wednesday 1pm-12pm ------
thursday 9am-8pm 9pm-11pm
friday off all day
saturday off all day
sunday off all day

I'm taking Friday through Tuesday off so we can spend some time together. We are leaving on Sunday morning and going to Niagra Falls Canada for some alone time as my step Daughter is watching the kids for a couple of days.

KISS

YA, What Neak said!

1) DO NOT waste those days that are marked as "all day." DO NOT.

2) Those days where it's 9-11pm? They aren't going to fully fit the definition of UA time, as it is the end of the day and you will both be tired. Still, don't waste it. Get Rocket's cooperation - have your bedroom clean, quiet, and relaxing. I would suggest you do a little pampering; draw her a nice, hot bubble bath... hell, join her. When you are done, give her a nice head-to-toe rubdown with a good lotion - lavender scents are nice and relaxing.


This week you took time off to create that week-end.


Face the facts; your job is destructive to your marriage. Your work and experience should place you to something more conducive of a father and husband. I suggest you start looking.

This is off subject but one of my favorite remix songs is "Then she kissed me" by KISS. You can find it on YouTube.

On the subject, Dr Harley has stated on the radio show that UA time should be quality time. Not worn out, dead tired time.
What is your profession?

HDW,

yes "Then she kissed me" is deffinitly a great song. Then entire Love Gun album is incredible.

I deffinity have some things that we will do this weekend. As we have about a 6 to 7 hour drive to Niagra Falls Sunday morning. We will be getting their around 4ish. We will be going to dinner that night then we can have a few drinks find something fun to do.

Monday we are going to go on the "Maid of the Mist" witch I've been to Niagra Falls twice and never went on. Then we will go play miniture golf and walk around the area. That night we will be going out to dinner and then we will go to the casino their. Hopefully the wife doesn't lose to much as she can get out of control with the "I can win it back mentality". (Dangerous lol) Besides when she is winning she has this very sexy look of confidence to her. Then we will spend the day Tuesday and come home in the afternoon. The evening time I have some alone time ideas also.

I am an assistant store manager for on of the largest retail companies. I work 11 hours a day 5 days a week. I would the last couple of years live work. As I would turn my eleven hour day into 16 to 17 hour days. My 55 hour week would be 65 to 70 hours. I have been pretty good at just working my scheduled hours and try to run quickly. It's hard when you have set an expectation of being the one to get everything done and willing to do anything for so long thats its hard to get them to realize that my family comes first. I was close to getting promoted to store manager now that has taken a step back. I need to put all that effort into my marriage that I have lost focus of the last couple of years.

THANKS
KISS

HoldHerHand,

Plans have changed a little as we aren't leaving for Niagra Falls till Sunday now. But we are going to spend the day friday together as we are going to go to our old house and go through some of our stuff and move it into storage and kind of start getting organized for our move sometime down the road. then we will have the kids in the evening. Then saturday we will do something as a family. We are having trouble with someone to watch the kids.

Rocketqueen said a short time ago that now instead of leaving Sunday at 9AM she wants to leave around 2ish. Because my step daughter is running a 5k race. That means we probably won't leave until at least 3ish so we will be getting their around 10pm. That kills that day!!! Then we would only have Monday and early Tuesday before we drive home. It's a 6-7 hour drive for us. Makes me wonder if its really worth going all the way thier for what will be really one day. I don't want to say to much to RocketQueen as I understand that she wants to see my step daughter run in this race as do I but this is supposed to be "our weekend".

How should I approach this?

THANKS
KISS

Sir you are a workaholic.
I know.
I was too.

Do you have a long commute also?

You may want to Consider counseling for the workaholic behavior.

POJA

HDW,

No it takes me about 25 minutes to get to work. No I have never been to counseling I pretty much just work my schedule now. I don't stay any extra unless we have a big walk or ad to set. Even then I don't stay to often.

THANKS
KISS

HDW,

I just don't want to think that my step daughter isn't important to me. She is very important. It's just that we don't get a chance to due this to often.

KISS

If your DSD is watching your children, I guess you'd need to wait until she is done the race, eh? Was this race not already planned? Did RQ have any say in the plans that you made for this weekend?

Your work schedule never impeded your ability to have an affair. You found time for that, because it was important to you.

It just so happens that I live in NF, Canada. It's lovely here, and there are a lot of things to do.

When the two of you sit down (Dr H recommends Sundays) you fill in the UA time FIRST. Then you put in family time. Maybe use a big calender or diary in which upcoming events (like the 5k race) would be marked into. If you are sitting down and deciding it together at the same time every week then you should avoid these sorts of snags.

I would let RQ take the lead on what to do this weekend, but apologise for not organising things well enough. Promise her in future that you will do better and promise her a set time on a Sunday that you will both sit down and organise UA time.

The Sunday 'lets organise UA time' meeting should be sacred. I know RQ probably feels a bit like a leftover priority but if she is making decisions with you every week, it'll help her have faith that things will change and she is an active participant.

For example, if you go to Niagara, would you organise the following week that Sunday? You could maybe take the diary and arrange things over lunch.

Kiss,

A 6-7 hour drive alone is GREAT UA time, even if it's just for "one day". One of the best UA dates we ever had together was an 8 hour car drive alone.

Scotland & Indiegirl,

My boss offered that I take this 5 day weekend a couple of months ago as we were short handed at work so my schedule sucked more then normal. She is also the one that mentioned going to Niagra Falls or something like that.

Rocketqueen and I have been talking about doing this for 5 or 6 weeks. We both thought that it would be a great place to go because their is so much to do. Plus RocketQueen loves going to gamble.

I knew my stepdaughter had this race coming up as I knew the location but not the date. Rocketqueen didn't realize it was this weekend until the last day or two.

Rocketqueen said she would see if her parents can watch the kids and go watch our stepdaughter run on Sunday. She said that she doesn't have the need to be their as long as someone is their for her. So we will see.

THANKS
KISS

Alis,

I know its time together and we can talk but I hate driving severly. We are working on moving to Florida now and my parents have offered to come to New York just to drive our moving truck so I don't have to because they know just how much I hate driving.

I know that Rocketqueen gets a little crazy when in the passengers seat as she says I make here car sick. So hopefully its not that bad.

THANKS,
KISS