Hello, I was hoping to get some advice and help from the good people of this site on a situation my fiance and I are experiencing. I hope this is the right forum.
Fist, I'll tell you our backstory. Somewhat condensed, to keep it managable!
Ok, my fiance and I met about 6-7 years ago when we were employed by the same company. We were a part of the same "lunch group" for a few years, and just casual aquaintances for a while, and about 3-4 years ago, we began chatting over IM pretty regularly at work. We were both married at the time, and it was innocent chatting in the beginning. We discovered fairly quickly that we shared lots of similar interests and tastes in music, humor, life, etc, and that gave us things to talk about. I began to realize right off, however, that we were heading into the classic definition of an Emotional Affair, and expressed my concerns to her, and we tried to keep things innocent. What was really happening however, was that we were both falling for each other pretty quickly. I was not someone who was interested in having an affair, although I was in an unhappy marriage for a long time. (13 yr marriage, of which, the last 8-9 was spent in and out of counseling) My "friend" at the time, was also in a 7 yr marriage, which consisted of lots of control, blame, and emotional abuse on his part, so she was pretty checked out on her end as well. Long story short here, within a couple months of us realizing there were feelings that weren't going to go away, I had moved out of my house, and my ex and I began divorce proceedings. My friend lost her job at my company, and I feared that meant she would stay with her husband, but she didn't. Despite being unemployed, she had the courage to leave him anyway, and got an apartment on her own. By January of '10, we were both divorced and serious in a relationship of our own.
A lot has happened since that time. We have been completely inseparable, and we are as affectionate each and every day as we were in the very beginning. We both absolutely love each other and are truly best friends. We've been living together for the past year, along with her two kids, and my son. (we have custody of them every other week, and then we have a week to ourselves, to spend alone with each other. Its actually worked out very nicely.) We enjoy our family time, and our alone time to do many things together and build life experiences.
Last November, we went on a cruise with my parents, and I asked her to marry me, and she enthusiastically accepted.
So, yes, I know things went really fast, and many will say "you need time alone", or something along those lines, but I already know that she is everything I've looked for that was missing in my life, and I know she feels the same. I've learned from my mistakes from my first marriage (lack of asserting my feelings, and letting things build into resentment, etc) and I make it a point to openly discuss things with my fiance, and so far thats gone really well for us.
So, you�re probably wondering what the problem is at this point? Ok, here goes�
For the past year and a half, my fianc� has been employed at a job where her department consists of just herself, her male counterpart, and her female boss. So, she has to work pretty directly with her male counterpart on a daily basis.
Within two weeks of her working there, we determined that he was a little awkward and inappropriate with some of his actions. For example, she put up pictures of us in her booth, and he asked right off if we were happy together. Who does that?? She of course said yes, and came home and told me about it. I got a little miffed, and was like, here we go�I�ve gotta watch this guy, huh? She was like, �no worries�he�s married, and harmless�.
Well, as time went on, we realized that he had a lot of the same interests we have�same type of music�design related stuff, etc� and as time went on he was sending songs and music to her via chat at work, etc. Also, they have to chat via skype at work throughout the day.
He would sent txts on her phone every now and again, and I noticed one day that she erased his txts, so I confronted her about it, and she said she didn�t want to accidentally respond to a txt he sent, with something intended for me ( we txt intimately fairly often). I didn�t know what to think, but she said, that she would just leave them on there, if it concerned me. A month or so later, we were home one night in our office, and he was contacting her on chat over gmail, and I told her I didn�t like that, that he got to talk to her all day long, and that nights and weekends were for us. She agreed, and stopped chatting with him on gmail.
I repeatedly told her that I was concerned, because WE had always chatted, and that�s how our relationship started, and that theirs just looked so similar. She said she understood, and that I had NOTHING to worry about, because she had no interest in him in any way other than work, and that she has to be friendly, because they have to work together all the time. I just asked her to police herself, and be mindful of boundaries. Especially since I felt he was seeking an emotional affair, because he seemed unhappy in his home life.
Whenever she mentioned him to me, she would be like, �bonehead at work did this..or he annoys me because his personality sucks�reminds me of my ex� etc, so I was like, ok�nothing to be concerned about.
So, fast foreward a few months, and I discovered a chat she had with him (via iChat) one day when she was working from home with a sick kid. It was mostly innocent, but she was very motherly to him�concerned about his feelings�.wants to see him happy, etc. And he mentioned that he had left a coffee for her on her desk, not knowing she wasn�t coming in�and there was even some sexual joke about his �junk� in there. I was devastated, as this was not at all what she portrayed their relationship to me was like, so I confronted her about it again. She cried and really beat herself up about it, and was upset that she disappointed me, and promised to never chat over iChat again, as it was too easy to mess up and talk inappropriately, since its not monitored by her work, like Skype is.
She honored that, and hasn�t been back on iChat since.
SO, the latest is�.I was able to see her Skype account recently, and noticed that she had gone to lunch with this guy that day, across the street from her office at the caf� the employees use. I nonchalantly asked her what she did fro lunch that day, and she said she ate alone. ☹
I woke her up in the middle of the night, and asked her if she really ate alone, or if she ate with him. She said she ate with him, but that others were supposed to come, but didn�t, and that she didn�t tell me because she knew I�d be upset, and that she�s accustomed to having to make stuff up, because her ex was always going into a tirade of accusations on her, so she was avoiding that. I told her that it was way more damaging for her to lie to me, and that it was unnecessary, because I�m NOT her ex.
We came to the conclusion that we needed to see a counselor to work thru this baggage from her previous marriage, and that we really need to solve this transparency and honestly issue. We�ve been to one session so far, and the counselor we picked just sat and listened, as I shared basically what I�ve shared here, and she didn�t sap a word, so�not sure where that�ll lead. We�re going back in a couple of weeks to see what happens.
Anyway, since then, I�ve checked her skype account pretty regularly, and it�s mostly innocent. No sexual jokes on her part or anything, but still very playful�sometimes mothering�.and he jokes with her a lot, almost like a brother would tease a little sister. But I noticed she never mentions me, even though there are pictures and cards I�ve sent her all over her walls. And she isn�t distant when I come see her at work or anything. Just as affectionate as ever. But when asked over skypw what she did that weekend, she might say, �I worked on the house� or �Took the kids to the park�, etc, but never says �M and I had the best day at the park..� or something..I think she�s afraid to hurt HIS feelings or something??? I dunno�.I feel like shes honored my requests to not contct him via other avenues, but says she has to chat with him on skype because that�s what they use for work stuff. And she says she doesn�t chat one on one very much, but that most chats are group chats with the boss included. But what I�ve seen shows plenty of one on one chats as well. I just want her to be transparent with me, and she says she is, but I don�t know how to get her to REALLY do so. I don�t want her to know that I can see her skype chats, because that might send her into a defensive, and shut me out. What should I do? I fear that even though we are really happy and wonderful now, what happens a few years down the road as their �closeness� continues to grow? I really want to prevent an emotional affair, even though I know that I give her everything she needs emotionally. We talk about it frequently. And, I also don�t like the fact that when I chat with her throughout the day, that I know I�m sharing her with someone else at the same time?
Help!
You started as an affair, so I suppose you cannot be surprised when she begins another one.
Dr. Harley gives relationships like this a low success probability. I would agree.
And that is leaving out the renters mentality you are both treating this relationship with, one that you have brought children into witness.
You see .. the thing is ... your marriage started as an affair ... even just emotional at first .. it created enough damage in your relationships and enough contrast that you persued each other because of the feelings your interactions created. If you think your ex spouses couldnt feel the neglect or the emotional drifting prior to your NEW marriage .. your kidding yourself. You were high on an addiction to the chemical in your brain called dopamine and when you seen her .. it released seretonin which completed the cycle of your reward system. Now that you dont work with your wife anymore .. and she spends all her time with a new guy at work .. you wonder why she is drifting from you? See the pattern? SHe is doing to you exactly what she did to her previous hubby .. and your doing the same!
My suggestion? Read all you can here ... get a keylogger on your PC and a VAR in her car to record her conversations on her way to work. Shes building up to replace you again. You only have like a 20% chance of saving this ... and that is if you BOTH get on board and you BOTH recognize your poor boundries around the opposite sex ... ELIMINATE THEM. Get the books SURVIVING AN AFFAIR, HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS, FALL IN LOVE STAY IN LOVE, LOVE BUSTERS, and BUYERS RENTERS AND FREELOADERS.
ALso your wife will HAVE to leave that job where that guy is .. its an EA and it will soon be PA if its not already. You got a TON of work to do.
MNG
How typical, isn't it?
Her ex was "controlling", "blaming", "emotionally abusive".
You say you are not her ex.
But are you aware that she will start to paint you as "controlling", "blaming", and "emotionally abusive"?
You see, history is repeating itself.
Her husband had every reason to go into a "tirade of accusations"... was he wrong? After all, she WAS shopping for a new man. Just like she is doing now.
Be thankful you are only engaged and GET OUT.
You are a 'branch' for a monkey woman -> she won't let go of one branch (man) until she grabs another.
I hope you too can learn and recover from this experience- if you want a faithful spouse, don't choose one that is a proven adulterer.
You see, you took the ex-husband's position and you left a job vacancy.
For the past year and a half, my fianc� has been employed at a job where her department consists of just herself, her male counterpart, and her female boss. So, she has to work pretty directly with her male counterpart on a daily basis.
Within two weeks of her working there, we determined that he was a little awkward and inappropriate with some of his actions. For example, she put up pictures of us in her booth, and he asked right off if we were happy together. Who does that?? She of course said yes, and came home and told me about it. I got a little miffed, and was like, here we go�I�ve gotta watch this guy, huh? She was like, �no worries�he�s married, and harmless�.
ok...I am not getting what the problem is here.
She is doing the same thing to you that she did with you. [except she is not married to you] You KNEW she was like this because she did it with you. She is developing strong feelings for another man. She is pursuing her feelings with this man and has every right to do so because she is a free agent! She is not married to you. You are just an adultery partner to whom she has no committment.
You knew what you were getting into so I view the basic issue as an inability to accept the consequences of your actions. When you buy a dog, don't get upset when he barks.
To sum up the three prior posts:
What she'll do WITH you, she'll do TO you.
Bail, my friend.
You see .. the thing is ... your marriage started as an affair
They are not married and he has no right to spy on her. Her relationship with this new guy is just as legitimate as his relationship with the OP. The woman has simply found another man. That is her right.
Want to emphasize that this is not an affair!! They are not married. Yes, she might be cheating, but cheating is an acceptable practice in this relationship. These people CONDONE and ENDORSE cheating. The OP knew that when he commenced his relationship.
The problem is not an "affair" but a willingness to face the reality of one's stupid choices.
What did her ex-husband always 'accuse' her of?
Inappropriate contact with men at work? Flirting with other men? Having an affair?
.............. was he wrong?
What did her ex-husband always 'accuse' her of?
Inappropriate contact with men at work? Flirting with other men? Having an affair?
.............. was he wrong?
It's groundhog day!!!
Wow,
I came on here, sharing all of the information about our history, with the hope of getting some solid advice as to what we can do to PREVENT issues moving forward. NOT get labeled and branded as unfixable, heartless souls who have no hope of having a viable relationship. Where is the CONSTRUCTIVE help?
My fiance and I have talked openly about our past, and we talk confidently about our long term future. We are absolutely present for each other and extremely loving and communicative when we are together, and are ALWAYS in touch when we are at work. Does she talk more with this guy than I'd prefer? sure. But like I said, it is mostly about innocent stuff, save for a few missteps, and it's ONLY at work. Hardly worthy of being branded as a cheater and "in love with another man". Good Lord.
As far as her ex, I witnessed firsthand the way he treated her, and it WAS a lot of unfounded accusations. (i.e, if she merely MENTIONED another man's name, he accused her of sleeping with him, etc...) so, yes, she IS damaged by 13 years of that treatment. Did she ultimately "stray"? YES. Does she regret not leaving the marriage first? YES.
We are two people trying to recover from mistakes of our past and make things right with what we have now, and I am seeking advice. Not responses of emoticons rolling on the floor laughing. If you call yourself a Christian, Shame on you. Save the judgement for GOD, remember?
I am on here looking for constructive help. If you cant offer that, then please keep your jaded opinions to yourself. You all are being asked to offer help to help someone who needs it, not throw us under the bus, based on preconceptions.
Your problem is that you have used a lack of sound judgement yourself. Your judgement in hooking up with an adulteress is very poorly thought out. She is only doing what you know she does. You run from reality by calling it "jaded" because you are out of touch with reality.
If it was ok for her to cheat with you, it is ok for her to cheat ON you. You need to man up and accept the consequences of your poor decisions. She is a free agent and has no committment to you. You need to accept that.
We are just treating your commitment to her with the same leek of respect you are.
You haven't been committed enough to marry her, and you disrespected her originally by being involved in an affair with her.
We are not judging. We are reacting to the facts as you told us.
"the floor laughing. If you call yourself a Christian, Shame on you. Save the judgement for GOD, remember?"
You weren't trotting out scripture when you were committing adultery so your use of it now is a little hypocritical. You dont understand that scripture or you would realize you just violated it.
P.s. not being able to judge right from wrong is what has led you to this terrible place. Our prisons are full of people who cannot judge right from wrong and that is right where they belong. Think on that....
Jesus Christ. (ooh, did I say that name in vain?) I'm not spouting scripture! I'm just reminding you who the judgement is supposed to be left to.
And I AM committing myself to marry her, we are planning a wedding as we speak, and I have NO misunderstandings about my past. I am well aware of the fact that I was married when we got together. Again.....TRYING TO MOVE FORWARD HERE....
You know, by the logic you are sharing here, you're basically saying that every single one of you who has cheated or been cheated on, to just give it up because your spouse WILL cheat on you again, or YOU will cheat again, whatever...how friggin hopeless.
@melody lane, suddenly I belong in prison? Do me a favor. Stop talking.
Huh?
Our spouses will cheat on us again because of whatnow?
You aren't married. You aren't actually committed to this woman. You were her affair partner earlier.
That? Has nothing to do with our marriages.
She didn't say you belong in prison.
Please try and read what is being said to you. Believe it or not- people ate trying to help you- but you aren't getting the help you expected.
Think of it as going to the doctor. You go to the doctor for help and a cure. Not to argue with him or her about the diagnosis.
By the way, this is a marriage forum, not a save the affair forum. You are in the wrong place, bub.
Save the judgement for GOD, remember?
It is not a judgment to say that she is doing to YOU exactly what she did before. Remember, *you* are the one who told us how 'innocent' your original work relationship was. We merely observed that she is just repeating history, as anyone would.
Innocent people do not lie to their spouse about going for lunch with the opposite sex. Innocent people certainly do not do such a thing with a particular person that their spouse has already expressed they are unhappy with.
It is not 'judgment' to say that if she did it with you, she will do it to you. It's an observation at this point. You can backpeddle all you want, but the truth isn't pretty and quite honestly, all we know is what you've told us - the 'best' side of it, and it still isn't pretty.
If you want to find what your future holds if you do marry this woman, tell her that this 'friend' is making you very uneasy so either she can quit her job and go no contact with him forever, or you will not marry her.
See what she says.
you're basically saying that every single one of you who has cheated or been cheated on, to just give it up because your spouse WILL cheat on you again, or YOU will cheat again, whatever...how friggin hopeless.
Here is one of the few places where a person would say "once a cheater, NOT ALWAYS a cheater".
However, here is where people who demonstrate remorse, STICK TO BOUNDARIES, remove themselves from problematic/repetitive situations where the adultery occurred, are people who are branded as "reformed" or "formerly wayward".
Your fiance is still doing the same thing as before so she isn't reformed at all. Is she going to quit her job and never speak to this man again, as verified by you?
"ou know, by the logic you are sharing here, you're basically saying that every single one of you who has cheated or been cheated on, to just give it up because your spouse WILL cheat on you again, or YOU will cheat again, whatever...how friggin hopeless."
But you are not using logic in that fogged out opinion, because you are ignoring the fact that our spouses repented. They stopped cheating and changed their ways. You did not as you are still with your affair partner. You and your affair partner, on the other hand, condone cheating.
Ths forum is for marriages, not to save affairs gone bad.
We ARE getting married! What a bunch of pompousness!
And yes, ridicNit, if you've cheated, or been cheated on, it will happen again. That is what you're telling me.
No- it isn't what we have told you. At all.
You are not married. You started as an affair. Your fianc� is ignoring healthy relationship boundaries . So are you. You haven't recovered. You're still in an affair relationship from the original act.
Your situation is nothing like what the recovered MARRIAGES on here are like.
@melody lane, suddenly I belong in prison? Do me a favor. Stop talking.
That is surely where you are headed if you cannot discern right from wrong. Look at the mess you have made by having a lack of judgement.... It is not a virtue to be unable to discern right from wrong; it is a crippling liability. As you know....
We ARE getting married! What a bunch of pompousness!
And yes, ridicNit, if you've cheated, or been cheated on, it will happen again. That is what you're telling me.
Is there suddenly something wrong with cheating? You did not have an objection when you were cheating on your spouses, after all. How hypocritical of you to object now.
"
But you are not using logic in that fogged out opinion, because you are ignoring the fact that our spouses repented. They stopped cheating and changed their ways. You did not as you are still with your affair partner. You and your affair partner, on the other hand, condone cheating.
Ths forum is for marriages, not to save affairs gone bad.
What I am asking is, why is it not possible for two people to make things right? Is it completely unheard of for us to get married and have a lifelong successful marriage? No it's not. And I truly do think that we will. I think that her behavior is the result of baggage from her last marriage, and that she is willing to change, but that it won't happen overnight. Remember, she DID agree to counseling.
I�ve gotta watch this guy, huh? She was like, �no worries�he�s married, and harmless�.
We were both married at the time, and it was innocent chatting in the beginning.
I noticed one day that she erased his txts, so I confronted her about it, and she said she didn�t want to accidentally respond to a txt he sent, with something intended for me.
Remember, she's had practice. Her bullcrap responses to her then-husband had your stamp of approval last go-round. You remember, when you were the other man she was innocently flirting with. 
I repeatedly told her that I was concerned, because WE had always chatted, and that�s how our relationship started, and that theirs just looked so similar.
You want her NOT to do things that brought you two to such a blissful adultery in the past?
Why not?
It was all A-Okay and good vibrations back then ..... 
Why not now? She said she understood, and that I had NOTHING to worry about, because she had no interest in him in any way other than work, and that she has to be friendly, because they have to work together all the time.
I just asked her to police herself, and be mindful of boundaries.
Whenever she mentioned him to me, she would be like, �bonehead at work did this..or he annoys me because his personality sucks�reminds me of my ex� etc, so I was like, ok
*high fives*
And, I also don�t like the fact that when I chat with her throughout the day, that I know I�m sharing her with someone else at the same time?
Help!
Here's what you should do.
Call up her EX-Husband (the one she betrayed) and ask him for advice.
After all, her EX is the man who knows the most about her abilities to betray a man while appearing innocent.
Her EX probably could help you out a lot!
We ARE getting married! What a bunch of pompousness!
And yes, ridicNit, if you've cheated, or been cheated on, it will happen again. That is what you're telling me.
Congrats on your upcoming marriage.
Is your lawyer still available that you used when you divorced your wife? You better put him on speed dial now.
I'm just saying.........
It would be very simple for her to stop cahtting this guy up and going to lunch with him. She is choosing not to, knowing that you don't like it.
She does NOT CARE how you feel. She only cares that she feels good, evidenced by her lying about being with him and continuing to chat with him.
Ask her to quit her job and go no contact with guy. Seriously.
We ARE getting married! What a bunch of pompousness!
And yes, ridicNit, if you've cheated, or been cheated on, it will happen again. That is what you're telling me.
There are a lot of BS's on this board in full recovery after an A. Myself being a BS included.
Have you read Dr Harley's writings? Do you understand the principles? Have you educated yourself on how affairs start and how relationships have been recovered?
Melody Lane is one of the most seasoned (and BEST) posters on this board. You will find help that you are seeking here. However, you must first be HONEST with yourself and the situation you have gotten into. She (as well as many others) has helped many many many people recover their marriages with solid advice based on Dr Harley�s teachings.
As has been pointed out: Is history repeating itself? �well, if you are honest with yourself know the answer to that.
You aren�t going to find any sympathy here to condone adultery.
She is just doing what she knows best. Tough love bud. Now you are about to become a victim of your own crimes. Not a sweet taste.
OMG, I hooked up with a cheater and she is.......cheating!!
Ask her to quit her job and go no contact with guy. Seriously.
She's good!
I can't wait.
Ths forum is for marriages, not to save affairs gone bad. [/quote]
Quoted for truth.
Nevermind. You are all obviously incapable of offering help from the mindset that there MIGHT be a possibility of this turning out to be a successful relationship, (even though it has been for the most part for the past three years, with all kinds of daily challenges work, kids house repairs...etc..all of the normal stuff that we handle with grace.
Good luck to you all. I hope you wallow in your perfect little married ::surround that word with gold and sparkles for the rest of us have-nots to see::
Goodbye.
Is it completely unheard of for us to get married and have a lifelong successful marriage?
This is why ......These are the defects for marriages between the spouse and the OP.
1) The intervention of Reality: Divorce in these marriages tends to take place very early in the marriage. During th affair, the infidel and perhaps the affairee are in a state of intensely stimulating unreality. The second marriage itself seems to be a switch that throws the lights on and illuminates the mess that has accumulated. It is as if the romance had seemed real, while the divorce didnt. Only after the remarriage did the divorce become real enough for the lovers to see that it was all a horrible mistake. The affairs that become marriages typically were so intense they were never questioned at all. During the divorce, reality never set in sufficiently to let the romance be evaluated and questioned. The romance was so romantic on one ever got around to asking if it was sane.
2) Guilt.. People who have wrecked a family have inflicted much pain, and they have a lot they could feel guilty about. As reality sets in, they see many things they were overlooking. They may have felt no guilt during the affair and divorce, and the guilt they feel after the romantic marriage may come as a suprise to both of them. It is generally assumed that people who dont permit themselves to be happy must be feeling guilty about somethingm and are unhappy as a way of punishing themselves for their misdeeds. One aspect of guilt is the rluctance to enjoy ones ill-gotten gains. Another aspect of guilt is the urge to return to the scene of the crime and in some way make amends. As a romantic newlywed resists the joys of the ex-mate who was deserted so blitheyly, the new mate can feel disoriented and betrayed.
3) Disparity of sacrifice... Divorces are expensive luxuries. Whatever the financial cost, the emotional cost is far greater. Anyone after losing that much, will be drained, exhausted and depressed. It is particularly difficult when the exhausted survivor of a debilitating divorce marries the triumphant winner of the struggle. If the romantic partner is marrying for the first time, and especially if the courtship has been treacherous and insecure, the new mate will be ecstatic. A new couple may feel a disparity in what had to be sacrificed to bring them together. The partner who has never been divorced may have difficulty understanding the complexity of emotions toward the previous family.
4) Expectations.. Then there is the feeling that anything that cost this much emotionally had damn well better be worth it. The greater the sacrifices, the greater the expectations from the new marriage. Now that the promised land has been reached, it should flow with milk and honey. But instead, the new couple are just 2 tired warriors with no fight left in them. Whatever these people were expecting, the best they are likey to find now is the ordinariness of real life, the dubious peace between glorious battles. The more people enjoy the battles involved in wrecking and escaping marriages, the less they are likely to enjoy the business as usual of the new marriage that was the destination of it all.
5) General Distrust of Marriage.. Of course, anyone who has been unhappily married is likely to develop a strong distrust of the institution of marriage. People whose marriages fell apart during affairs are likey to end up distrusting marriages rather than distrusting affaris. People who distrust marriage have a vey hard time being in one.
6) Distrust of affairee..It might seem appropriate for someone to go out with them, or even to marry them, but not quite appropriate for someone to have an affair with them. Affairs are considered dishonerable acts, and people who feel guilty for having affairs believe that they are dishonorable and their partner must be dishonorable too.
7) Divided Loyalties..During the affair tnd the divorce, the romantic couple isolate themselves. It is not only the betrayed spouses who are erased from awareness, but also the children, the families, friends, anyone who attempts to pull the romantic couple from the quicksand of their affair. But after the remarriage, there may be a longing to reestablish connections with families and friends and this may be more difficult than expected. Each close relationship and some that were amazingly casual may have to be renegotiated in view of the hurt caused to others.
8) The nature of infidels.... People who get themselves into affairs have some specific characteristics that must influence the course of their subsequent marriages. Each kind of infidel is different. Most of those who end up marrying an affair partner are romatics who drift hypnotically through this romantic high without taking much responsibility. Romantic remarriage seldom works, not only because of th unrealistic nature of romance, but also because of the reality-avoiding nature of romantics.
9)The nature of affairees.... Affairees want whatever they want from a relationship, jsut as everyone else does, but what makes them unusual is that they seek their goals among the married rather than the single. They choose partners who are not in position to marry them, and who are engaging in the relationship at great risk. People like this are clearly angry with marriage, and perhaps with the opposite sex. They believe marriage doesnt work, and they demonstrate that by breaking up another marriage as they find a partner for themselves.
10) Romance.. People who believe in the chemistry of romance dont bother to learn much about the physics of relationships. When the romance begins to fade, romantics know little about how to solve those problems that they have relied on romance to transcend. It is painful to watch a romantic relationship dissolve. It happens so suddenly, and so totally. These people have already demonstrated that they would rather get divorced than learn physics, so it is far easier for them to follow the same pattern.
11) Scapegoating of cuckolds... During the affair and divorce, the romantic couple conspired to convince each other that the defective marriage was the fault of the cuckold. To acknowledge otherwise, now that remarriage has taken place, seems a betrayal of the rescue fantasies that fed the romance.
12) Unshared history... Even if the new marriage survives all of these obstacles, there is one further characteristic of all second marriages: The absence of a shared history that brings familiarity torelationships that began earlier in life. If a romantic marriage has wrecked a previous marriage or two, the history of the relationship is painful to both partners, and possibly somewhat embarrasing to others. The new partners keep thinking about it and justifying it, but it is hard to talk about lightly, in the familiar, safe manner of people who can tell their old war stories without guilt. However intense their commitment, people who share a guilty past arent totally rpoud of their new marriage.
I offered you help! Tell her that you need her to quit this job and go no contact for life with this man.
Please?
Nevermind. You are all obviously incapable of offering help from the mindset that there MIGHT be a possibility of this turning out to be a successful relationship, (even though it has been for the most part for the past three years, with all kinds of daily challenges work, kids house repairs...etc..all of the normal stuff that we handle with grace.
Good luck to you all. I hope you wallow in your perfect little married ::surround that word with gold and sparkles for the rest of us have-nots to see::
Goodbye.
Don't forget to come back and post after you've spoken to her EX husband and gotten tips from him..... How to emotionally survive "ACE'S" cheating tactics.
Good luck to you all. I hope you wallow in your perfect little married ::surround that word with gold and sparkles for the rest of us have-nots to see::
Goodbye.
[/quote]
See you were the person having an affair and breaking up 2 marriages. Don�t you dare make this kind of statement and assume that you UNDERSTAND the pain of betrayal assuming everyone lives in a life of skittles and rainbows.
Some of us have been on the receiving end of an A. � You haven�t. Some of us have lived the world of betrayal and it is the most difficult experience in my life (tougher than the loss of my FATHER!). You don�t know the devastation that an A can bring to the BS.
Now that you are getting a little tiny taste of what it MIGHT feel like, you attack us and then run and hide. If you want help here you can get it. First you need to drop the attitude and get to work as posters have said.
Do some here that have been betrayed get fired up by the likes of you? Absolutely. It is meant to help wake you up and actually break through your walls. Believe it or not, it is true.
Good luck. You are going to need it.
I offered you help! Tell her that you need her to quit this job and go no contact for life with this man.
Please?
And, when she refuses, you have your answer.
Which is ........
She does not care enough about you to stop flirting with other men.
FYI ..... there is no such thing as "innocent flirting" when a person is married.
But, since you are not married to "ACE", her flirting could be considered innocent. She, no doubt, thinks it's all harmless.
She's breaking no marriage vows.
Good luck to you all. I hope you wallow in your perfect little married ::surround that word with gold and sparkles for the rest of us have-nots to see::
Goodbye.
Buh bye...
Good luck. You are going to need it.
[/quote]
Actually, I take that statement back.
UGHHHH!!!! Can't in good conscience say good luck to anyone who acts in such a despicable manor. Feel like I would be wishing good luck to the OM in my situation.
I hate adultery and all of its implications. I�m out of this one.
Wallow?
To quote Inigo Montoya- I do not think that word means what you think it means.
He does not need luck.
He needs clarity and wisdom .... which he is sorely lacking.
I wish you wheel-barrels of wisdom mgambard.
I wish you clarity of vision to see what sort of woman you left your marriage for.
She's the booby-prize.
Hey .. Read my original post to you ... it about sums up what you gotta do to save your current relationship .. Yes there is a chance it will work out for you .. but like i said .. YOU have a ton of work to do.
Oh and BTW ... this forum and the people here are in fact life savers. They will NOT coddle you. They will call it as they see it. Its not often they are wrong ... its just the fog of some of the people who come here will not allow them to hear and grasp what they need to grasp to get the job done. It occasionally takes a few 2x4s to get the message through.
I highly suggest you read all the basic concepts here. And re read my original post. Then reconsider what others have said in a constructive way.
MNG
I offered you help! Tell her that you need her to quit this job and go no contact for life with this man.
Please?
Actually, she has already offered that, but I told her it wasnt necessary, as long as the contact remained work related, and it's a really high paying job that she wouldnt be able to replace easily. Especialy in this economy. And with two kids to support, not a smart option. But yet, she still offered.
I offered you help! Tell her that you need her to quit this job and go no contact for life with this man.
Please?
Actually, she has already offered that, but I told her it wasnt necessary, as long as the contact remained work related, and it's a really high paying job that she wouldnt be able to replace easily. Especialy in this economy. And with two kids to support, not a smart option. But yet, she still offered.
Seriously, the number of folks whose relationships started as an affair who come here because they are NOW being cheated on is almost funny except for this:
Listen, you need to stop thinking about yourself and start thinking about your son. This relationship has ZERO chance of making it.
Dr Harley would warn you about the challenges you will face in a M with this woman for each one of these things singularly:
~ relationship started as an affair
~ living together before marriage
~ blended family
~ your GF has problems with honesty
~ your GF has poor boundaries with men
~ your GF is currently entangled in an emotional relationship with her coworker
All of these together = train wreck.
It's nice that she makes you feel the warm and tinglies, but that is going to wear off and it's NOT enough to make a marraige work.. But since you are being led by your emotions and not logic, I am sure you will justify in your foggy head why M to her would be a good idea anyway. That makes me VERY sad for your son. You are walking him straight into a second divorce and that will be a disaster for him.
But no, it's all about YOU, isn't it? *sigh*
Apologize if this has already been done.
Please listen to this radio clip where the emailer asks how can he trust his now wife because their relationship started as an affair.
Trust in an affairage=
Here's what Dr. H has to say.
Radio clip on trust in an affairage
I'm not in any position to give advice but money is not everything when it comes down to family. I have done told my boss I would step down and take a pay cut if it meant I will get custody of my kids.
Money is not everything!!!!!!!!!!
I am of the opinion that some relationships are not worth saving. An affair certainly falls in that category. I would feel damn ashamed if I ever helped someone save an affair.
You only have like a 20% chance of saving this ...
Where did you get this number from?
Dr Harley has repeatedly said most affairs don't make it to marriage and those that do are doomed. If they were married (which they aren't), he would tell them they probably have a 1 in 100 shot of making it...
While it's true that there are happy marriages that start as affairs, they are in the minority. Only about 5% of all affairs end in marriage, and only about 1/3 of those marriages survive the first five years. You probably have one chance in 100 of turning this marriage into a successful relationship, and you're off to a terrible start in spite of your love and commitment.
Did I ever tell y'all that my spouse's OW wanted them to go to therapy, after she cheated on my husband?
Can you imagine that appointment?!?! LOL
Did I ever tell y'all that my spouse's OW wanted them to go to therapy, after she cheated on my husband?
Can you imagine that appointment?!?! LOL
I am of the opinion that some relationships are not worth saving. An affair certainly falls in that category. I would feel damn ashamed if I ever helped someone save an affair.
Agree.
Not to mention, there is something really wrong when a person is on here trying to receive help saving their affair on a forum where people are on the floor bleeding over the destruction infidelity has caused in their lives.
It's also funny how we went from being "fine people" in the first post to big meanie heads in the span of about an hour.
"We've been living together for the past year, along with her two kids, and my son. (we have custody of them every other week, and then we have a week to ourselves, to spend alone with each other. Its actually worked out very nicely.) " quote
That's my favorite part. How it all worked out so well for the kids!
mga,
Have you shown true remorse and gone back to apologize to your first wife and your son? Have you grown enough to apologize to her two children and first husband? You tore apart two families, with your girlfriend's help. You have a lot of apologizing to do if you really want to "move forward".
Your fog is thick pal, you may want to listen to these wise people. If you don't see it now, give it time, you will. Guaranteed.
I offered you help! Tell her that you need her to quit this job and go no contact for life with this man.
Please?
Actually, she has already offered that, but I told her it wasnt necessary, as long as the contact remained work related, and it's a really high paying job that she wouldnt be able to replace easily. Especialy in this economy. And with two kids to support, not a smart option. But yet, she still offered.
You have had some of the forums more experienced participants respond to you. I know you are having a hard time with some of the messages you have read and that is understandable. You are looking for an easy solution to a difficult problem.
You are enabling an emotional affair. Pepperband gave you a brilliant suggestion. Tell her you changed your mind. She has a propensity for flirting with men. You are a prime example of that. If and I mean if there is any hope of you two establishing a long term relationship she cannot have any MALE friends at work or anywhere. You want to look like you can trust her so you don't look like the bad guy or paranoid. Well you are setting yourself up to fail if you continue with this. You need to familiarize yourself with the concept of EXTREME Precautions. Your fiance is addicted to flirting and getting herself into dangerous situations.
You are leaving yourself exposed big time. Some of the posters here have suggested you run away from this situation because the probability or her doing to you what she did with you is very high. She has a track record of cheating. You are overlooking something that you need to pay attention to. What is she doing to stop this addiction?
I feel badly for you. I have been in the situation you are in. My ex-wife loved to get attention from other men. Until I came here I had no clue on how dangerous it can be to a relationship. Well let me tell you that it is an issue of character. The person you are hoping to marry has some character issues and some behaviour issues she has to rectify. And you have to man up and hold her accountable.
Dr. Phil says the best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour. As I read your post you are in that classic situation. I know you are in LOVE and that is clouding your judgement. You are on a slippery slope and headed for a some serious problems down the road if you do not pay attention to the real dangers you face.
You both have to commit to being very disciplined regarding your relationship. And you need to establish some strict boundaries, otherwise you are signing up for a world of hurt in about 3 years if not sooner.
Good luck.
(we have custody of them every other week, and then we have a week to ourselves, to spend alone with each other. Its actually worked out very nicely.)
Oh, good. How nice for you, to fit these children into your schedules.
Children are NOT moveable objects! How callous are you, to admire the schedule that works for you re: child care while these children are being disrupted and dragged back and forth between their two homes??
Bottom line: You and your girlfriend destroyed both of your marriages in order to indulge your childish desire for each other. Your relationship started out on a deceptive foundation. You are now puzzled and hurt because your girlfriend is behaving exactly as she did when the two of you met. What are you confused about? She's behaving normally for her.
And I AM committing myself to marry her, we are planning a wedding as we speak, and I have NO misunderstandings about my past. I am well aware of the fact that I was married when we got together. Again.....TRYING TO MOVE FORWARD HERE....
You know, by the logic you are sharing here, you're basically saying that every single one of you who has cheated or been cheated on, to just give it up because your spouse WILL cheat on you again, or YOU will cheat again, whatever...how friggin hopeless.
Um, no. You haven't read enough on this site to speak intelligently about the other posters' situations here. But I CAN confirm that adulterers who hook up and dump their spouses for each other statistically have a dismal success rate. ESPECIALLY when there are kids involved, and ex husbands who actually WEREN'T abusive/mean/stupid, etc.
Very possibly. I'm sorry. She's already shown you what she can do.
Good luck to you all. I hope you wallow in your perfect little married ::surround that word with gold and sparkles for the rest of us have-nots to see::
I couldn't find a little guy throwing gold sparkles. Will green do?
![[Linked Image from pic4ever.com]](http://www.pic4ever.com/images/greenstars.gif)
You are naive and belligerent, sir. Those qualities prevent learning. Just so you know. Let us know when you are REALLY receptive to learning from people who :::gasp::: may actually know more than you
think you know. I know... that flies in the face of your own over-inflated opionion of yourself. We'll do our best, though.
We've been living together for the past year, along with her two kids, and my son. (we have custody of them every other week, and then we have a week to ourselves, to spend alone with each other. Its actually worked out very nicely.) We enjoy our family time, and our alone time to do many things together and build life experiences.
I almost couldn't keep reading past this...
Seriously? So adultery, abandoning your spouses and children, and then fitting those kids in around your adulterous affair to the benefit of the affair and your own selfishness has worked out "very nicely" for YOU?
Bet the kids would have preferred different.
I have read this thread with morbid fascination. It is like car crash TV... I just can't look away from the horror.
The reason why affairages don't work it's simple
Two crack addicts living together never works and neither can get clean.
If crack addicts live apart they stand a better chance of getting themselves clean and being decent members of society again.
You and your girlfriend have a warped mind set where dating married people and chearting on your spouses is acceptable therefore you can't ever have a decent relationship. Separate make amends with the people you have both hurt and look for decent moral partners in the future.
It's also funny how we went from being "fine people" in the first post to big meanie heads in the span of about an hour.For some of us, it's not too unusual!
It's also funny how we went from being "fine people" in the first post to big meanie heads in the span of about an hour.For some of us, it's not too unusual!
ditto......
I offered you help! Tell her that you need her to quit this job and go no contact for life with this man.
Please?
Actually, she has already offered that, but I told her it wasnt necessary, as long as the contact remained work related, and it's a really high paying job that she wouldnt be able to replace easily. Especialy in this economy. And with two kids to support, not a smart option. But yet, she still offered.
You have had some of the forums more experienced participants respond to you. I know you are having a hard time with some of the messages you have read and that is understandable. You are looking for an easy solution to a difficult problem.
You are enabling an emotional affair. Pepperband gave you a brilliant suggestion. Tell her you changed your mind. She has a propensity for flirting with men. You are a prime example of that. If and I mean if there is any hope of you two establishing a long term relationship she cannot have any MALE friends at work or anywhere. You want to look like you can trust her so you don't look like the bad guy or paranoid. Well you are setting yourself up to fail if you continue with this. You need to familiarize yourself with the concept of EXTREME Precautions. Your fiance is addicted to flirting and getting herself into dangerous situations.
You are leaving yourself exposed big time. Some of the posters here have suggested you run away from this situation because the probability or her doing to you what she did with you is very high. She has a track record of cheating. You are overlooking something that you need to pay attention to. What is she doing to stop this addiction?
I feel badly for you. I have been in the situation you are in. My ex-wife loved to get attention from other men. Until I came here I had no clue on how dangerous it can be to a relationship. Well let me tell you that it is an issue of character. The person you are hoping to marry has some character issues and some behaviour issues she has to rectify. And you have to man up and hold her accountable.
Dr. Phil says the best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour. As I read your post you are in that classic situation. I know you are in LOVE and that is clouding your judgement. You are on a slippery slope and headed for a some serious problems down the road if you do not pay attention to the real dangers you face.
You both have to commit to being very disciplined regarding your relationship. And you need to establish some strict boundaries, otherwise you are signing up for a world of hurt in about 3 years if not sooner.
Good luck.
@BCBoy, First, I want to take the opportunity to thank you for your civilized response. This is exactly what I was hoping to get from here, was someone who isn't sugarcoating the situation I'm in, OR coddling me, as someone else put it, but spelling out a civilized approach to what my next steps should/could be. So for that, thank you.
For the majority of the rest of you, I have little to say other than, way to put someone on the defensive right off the bat. What did you expect? I don't pretend to know the hurt your own situations have caused, nor the amount of pain you have endured, not would I try to put my own judgements out there as such.
But I will say this. We are still two people with feelings and emotions too, not cold heartless beasts who've "wrecked families" and ruined children. My son happens to love my fiance, as I do her kids as well. And during our weeks we have them. our time is devoted entirely TO them. My Ex wife and I are on friendly terms, and her new BF and his kids are important to my son as well.
As far as my fiance goes, well, think what you want, but she endured YEARS of alcoholism, verbal abuse and being restrained from even seeing her own family members. So yes, there are emotional problems there that led her to stray from her marriage. I've already admitted that to you. (I didnt HAVE to come on here and do so, remember) Perhaps I havent explained the right way what was going on in the first place now. She does NOT actively flirt at work with other men. is there some playful banter that once or twice got a out of bounds? Yes. I confronted her about it, and it stopped. My original plea on here was to get help to know if I was overreacting BECAUSE of our history, or in not, what can I do to make it right. thats all. She is not an evil person, and she's not looking to 'hook up' with anyone else. I DO think that her knee jery reaction to lie to me about lunch that day was because she didnt want me to be worried. She could have continued to deny it, but all it took was for me to ask a second time, and she came clean. My point is, is I think she is trying. Belive it or not, although the odd may not be in our favor, we COULD be that 1 in 100. Thats all.
Dude. Your "feelings and emotions " led you to wreck two families. Until you acknowledge that, and own it- then yes, cold and heartless and selfish are apt descriptors.
And by your logic- anyone with a bad past is entitled to cheat.n
Sweet!! I have had really awful things happen in my life - and somehow, I have avoided cheating. What's wrong with me? *sad face*
You haven't paid attention to anything you're been told. Your fianc� is cheating on you. Just like she cheated with you. And you don't seem to be arsed enough to take some action.
good luck with that.
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Never said we were entitled to cheat. Never DIDN'T own up to the fact that we did. Have you not read my post? I could've come on here, and told my whole story, and left off the beginning part about how we met, and you'd be 100% trying to support and offer up solutions. Thats exactly what I WOULD have done, had I been looking for justification. I think I just came to a place where cuts have run too deep for anyone to see things on the other side of the fence thats all.
If I'm the evil one, why am I not posting ROTFL smilies, and snide comments?
I want to thank you for giving me the drive I need to prove you wrong. Send me your address, and I'll include you on my 50 year wedding anniversary party.
I could've come on here, and told my whole story, and left off the beginning part about how we met, and you'd be 100% trying to support and offer up solutions. Thats exactly what I WOULD have done, had I been looking for justification.
Actually we would have given you the same advice. She is cheating. Why enter into a marriage that is doomed to fail?
See same advice.
I think I just came to a place where cuts have run too deep for anyone to see things on the other side of the fence thats all.
No, you came to a place where people call a spade a spade and you don't like hearing it because you are in denial. One does not have to have been "cut" to recognize an affair when they see it. You came to a marriage forum to try and save an affair. This is not "Affair Builders," it is Marriage Builders. You are not married, you are in an affair.
You are on the wrong forum, my friend. Marriage Builders is intended to save marriages, not affairs.
mholt,
I am 100% serious and not sarcastic here.
WHY do you feel that she is not repeating history? When you've clearly stated that she is doing the same thing with this guy, that she did with her husband, and is doing these things against your wishes?
I don't understand how you have come to any other conclusion, other than perhaps you think that a woman would not do this if her husband was not "controlling" or "abusive". They do.
Read your first post.
Now read your last few posts.
You are re-writing things to make her appear how you want to her to appear - not for what the original problem was and how her behaviour demonstrates a pattern.
I'm sorry, but all relationships cannot be fixed - and certainly not ones where a person is demonstrating the EXACT SAME BEHAVIOUR as to what led to their previous affair.
She is being the same woman you chose to have an affair with, only you want her to change who she is.
She is who she is. You can't bait-and-switch a person.
BTW you will find that "fixable" marriages after adultery occur when two parties once had a good relationship, adultery occurs later on, and both parties recognize an extreme need/dedication to change the marriage and their lives.
You will not find much success stories here when one person marries someone who was an adulterer from day 1. Whether you left out your original part or not, people here would tell you to run.
She did it with you, she is doing it to you - hiding your head in the sand will not change how obvious that is.
I think I just came to a place where cuts have run too deep for anyone to see things on the other side of the fence thats all.
No, you came to a place where people call a spade a spade and you don't like hearing it because you are in denial. One does not have to have been "cut" to recognize an affair when they see it. You came to a marriage forum to try and save an affair. This is not "Affair Builders," it is Marriage Builders. You are not married, you are in an affair.
You are on the wrong forum, my friend. Marriage Builders is intended to save marriages, not affairs.
Marriage Builders
Building Marriages To Last A Lifetime
Affair Builders
Building Affairs To Last A Few Miserable Years
mholt --
You like to make the picture pretty, don't you.
Now its just some simple flirting and she's put a stop to it.
Instead of the sneaky behavior you described at first.
And you say you're "friendly" with your XWife -- but I wonder what her view of that would be?? Those of us who have years of experience in dealing with affairs know that it is the most painful experience in life. So, since you show no remorse regarding the destruction of your family -- how has your Xwife gained this sense of "friendliness" towards you?
Does she even know the depth of your betrayal? Does she know that it was the affair with OW that was the primary cause?
Or did you paint OW as your "new" girlfriend that just came along after your divorce?
you said:
What I am asking is, why is it not possible for two people to make things right?
Have you truly made things right? Have you sought forgiveness from XWife for the betrayal of her? Start from there.
What have you DONE to start making things right?
And if you haven't done that.....then perhaps this is KARMA.
It is truly wrong how much this thread makes me laugh, isn't it?
I am angry that they are unrepentant cheaters, but am enjoying the fact that it is exploding.
I won't hold my breath for a 50th wedding anniversary party for these two schmoopie soulmates. LOL
Pepper!! Affair builders ! Rofl
Pepper!! Affair builders ! Rofl
I think it's this one
Sugarcane am I right?
I could've come on here, and told my whole story, and left off the beginning part about how we met, and you'd be 100% trying to support and offer up solutions. Thats exactly what I WOULD have done, had I been looking for justification.
mholt. Let's be honest here. The real reason that you did not leave that piece of info out of your original post is because you saw nothing wrong with what you did.
That is disturbing mholt. Someday you will regret these choices that you have made.
Well, while the rest of you haters are manning this board 24/7 focusing on your "recovered" marriages and ready to pounce on your next victims....the fiance and I are taking the kids out to dinner to enjoy the evening.
Thanks to those who gave me some semblance of good advice (interestingly enough, it came from those who dont respond every 30 seconds, assumingly because they ARE out there rebuilding their marriages...)
The rest of you...it seems as though you are married to marriagebuilders.com more than anything.
Not for me. I'm out.
![[Linked Image from clicksmilies.com]](http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/travesmilies/smilie_koffer.gif)
buh bye...
Again? So soon?
Hmmm. I wonder if his fianc� will talk to her boyfriend before or after they have their romantic date that far surpasses us lowly MB'ers?
I have a date tomorrow night. With a man I actually married and committed to! Top that! LOL
...aaaaand theres the three i expected to hear from!
Pepper, it took you less than a minute! ::golf claps::
@RidicSit...I'm not out to top anyone..I guess thats the difference.
There is a huge difference .
You participated in an affair, broke up two families,, continue to expose children to this mess, and had the nerve to come to a forum called Marriage Builders
for help in propping up your affair. The affair that is crumbling because she is doing to you what she did with you.
You and I, buddy? not on the same planet.
...aaaaand theres the three i expected to hear from!
Pepper, it took you less than a minute! ::golf claps::
@RidicSit...I'm not out to top anyone..I guess thats the difference.
Well, I haven't responded to you, but since you keep coming back for some sordid reason I'll take the opportunity to do so now.
You have to be one the biggest **edit** I have ever encountered in real life or on the net. YOU, with your unmitigated gall, come to a board called Surviving an Affair, a board that is mainly comprised of the very same type of people YOU and YOUR adultery skank crushed with your lies, deceit, and betrayal and you expect them to help you? And then get self righteous and indignant to those very same people when they refuse to offer assistance in improving your adultery? Wow, you are un-freakin-believeable!
mholt, I say to you (and I say this with all the sincerity I can muster) that I truly do hope you get everything you deserve in life.
Everything.
A reminder that the purpose of this board is to help marriages, not affairs. We are locking this thread now. Let's all get back to marriage building!
