I am married for 14 years with 2 kids. My husband and I have had issues over the last 10 years since we moved to our new house where my husband grew up. Basically he abandoned me and the kids to have his own playful life, and then he started emotionally abusing me. The first 4 years of our marriage and the year we lived together prior, were amazing. He was the most amazing person I ever met and I had turned down several marriage proposals before I met him. he was the ONE.

Over the last 6 months my husband had been glued to his computer and started sleeping on the sofa when we had a wood burning stove put in. He said he was afraid something would go wrong and wanted to be close to it. I woke up a few times during the wee hours of the morning and he was on the computer. He then started hanging around with his younger brother and going out to bars, clubs and was coming home drunk and at all hours of the day. My husband is 36 and his brother is 21. I started catching my husband in lies but they were silly lies. Things that would never bother me but because they involved a girl his brother was dating or another female, he kept it from me. In March, he became vicious. There was no talking to him, no relief from the misery and I couldn't seem to do anything right even though I was not eating, not sleeping and doing everything humanly possible to make this man happy for one single moment.

I asked him if he was having an affair and he denied it. I asked him about who he talks to online and why all of his accounts were password protected (we have never shut each other out of our accounts before). He started an argument and left.

At the end of March my husband planned a trip to a city 4 hours away from home with his brother and said they were going for "something they had to do." I questioned it and he became furious. He had me pack his bag and they left for an overnight trip.

A month later, my husband was still on this chat messenger program all the time and every time I walked in, he would close it. It became almost a joke to him as I would see it, hit him as I walked by and he would laugh and deny doing anything wrong.

At the end of April, I found a hidden file on the computer with several audio files. They were recorded telephone conversations with him and the other woman. They were saying things like "my love" I fell in love with you and they talked about planning a meeting in the city at the end of March. They even discussed a particular hotel where our family had stayed once and since I work in the travel industry, I called the hotel and found that Mr. & Mrs. had stayed that night together. She lives 15 hours away from our house.

I confronted my husband. His first reaction was "we are getting a divorce." His second reaction was "I am leaving." We live in a house that his parents built for our children, it is in trust to them. His parents live next door.

We talked it through and I realized that I really love him, despite the years of emotional abuse and that I did not want to destroy our lives and most importantly the lives of our children who are twins and about to become teenagers.

The first 3 weeks were wonderful. I was almost thankful that he had an affair. I was in pain but for the first time in more than 8 years, my husband was paying attention to me, talking to me about important things, making decisions with me, showing me affection and attention. We decided to go on dates each weekend and to have one important family "date" each week. He has no interest in spending any time with our children and one of them hates him.

I had stopped searching for about a week and I was feeling pretty good about everything until I remembered seeing an email account somewhere and realized that I never checked it. His demeanor had changed a bit and I thought he might still be in contact with her so I checked. Sure enough I found that they were corresponding through Youtube and she was sending him sappy love songs. I could not see his messages to her but I could see her replies and in one of them she mentioned their phone conversation "last night." He was cheating on me AGAIN!

The second blow was harder to deal with than the first. I knew he was doing something wrong before, but this time we had promised to be open and honest and he had promised that it was over, that he had said goodbye and if she contacted him, he would tell me. He lied, deceived and cheated again. This time he had been home and waiting for me to leave the room so he could answer her. VERY SNEAKY

I confronted him AGAIN. We talked again and I explained that he needed to cut her off completely or the alternative would be a marriage of convenience until the children were old enough. I told him he could have her, talk to her, go on trips to see her and I would just be his friend/roommate. He did not want that. He swore it was over and vowed to make this work with me.

Our sex life has always been excellent. Even after I found out about the affair, I had sex with him the next day and found myself lost in the passion. It wasn't an issue and I felt lucky. I used techniques I had found online to block out the images of him with her and eventually they faded and are not an issue anymore.

This past weekend during sex he became flaccid. First time in 15 years! We managed to get going again and finish the job but with some strange and awkward feelings about it. We did not discuss it.

Since then, he has not wanted to touch me and I have left him alone about it. I tried to talk to him the following evening about some things that had happened in our past. I want to discuss the root of our marital problems but he flipped out and refused to talk about the past anymore. I realized that we were going nowhere with the conversation and asked him if he would be willing to talk about it another time. The answer was NO.

I brought up another subject the next day. We need to discuss our financials, and I want to talk about our relationship. He has completely closed me off to all discussions and constantly tells me he can't stand to hear me anymore.

We had sex last night because I basically had to seduce him. This was the first time we had sex and it was without a connection. I wanted to be intimate with him more often since the affair because in truth, it was the only time I felt safe and secure in our relationship. Last night disproved that completely. Today he is broody and miserable and barely spoke a word to me. Am I doing something wrong? Is he still in love with her or even worse, is he still talking to her? Does he want me to be the bad guy and initiate a divorce?

He is a very technologically savvy guy. He has the latest computer and the latest cell phone and all these apps and gadgets, etc. I tried to monitor every single account he has online but in truth, he can easily open another one and I would never find it now. I am exhausted from the constant searching and worry. I have dropped 20lb in 3 weeks, I have not slept through a night since I found out because I am afraid he will get out of bed to go on the computer. I am not giving my kids, house and job the attention they need and I simply can't function. Please help!

Welcome and sorry for what has brought you here.

Who is this OW? Is she married?

You need to blow up his affair and expose. Exposure 101

Please read this. How To Survive An Affair

And this Carrot and Stick of Plan A

I am sorry you are here.
Your first post mentioned nothing about the MB plans. Am I correct to assume you know nothing about MB?

Start reading the link found on the right of this page. There is something that reads " Most popular links". Click on "How to survive infidelity". Then, after reading everything there, come back here to your thread and click on the link in my sig line that says "carrot/stick of plan A". It's an outline of my understanding of Plan A. Just to get you started. Meanwhile, BUY the Dr Harley book Surviving An Affair.

Tell us if your WH has addiction/porn/violence problems. How is he with the kids? Is he patient, loving and kind towards them?

Any previous affairs?

Part of Plan A never to be overlooked is self care.
You will need STD testing, as will WH. You need to refuse sex until he shows you proof he is free from disease.

Meanwhile, put a VAR ( voice activated recorder) in the car he drives. As a matter of fact, go read all the relevant topics in the Operation Investigate forum.

Post often.
Ask MB plan questions.
Take excellent care of yourself.
You cannot Plan A if you are falling apart and neglecting your self care.

Thank you for the replies and information. I will read everything I can get my hands on but buying books is difficult because I am in another country. I'll see what I can get online.
In answer to your questions "BrainHurts" the OW is 6years younger than he, she is married with 2 small children. They met on facebook back in Oct. He had added her as a friend for a game he was playing. He started sleeping on the sofa at the end of Nov, so I think the affair lasted about 5 months.

To "Pepperband" my husband smokes pot every day and when he doesn't, he gets nasty. He never has more than a joint around the house so trying to get him arrested is a waste of time. He has been violent with me (choking, pushing, slapping) 5-6 times in our marriage and the last time was in 2008 when I was getting ready for my first trip home to the USA after 7 years. He is very insecure and always blames me or accuses me of things I haven't even thought about doing. He thought I was leaving and never coming back. I should have. The argument turned into violence and I picked up a pair of scissors and hid them in my sleeve because he was really on a rampage and started going after the kids who were locked in their room. He saw the scissors in my hand and grabbed them. My mother in law ended up breaking into our house to save me as he had me pinned with the scissors open at my throat and I was screaming for my life. She later turned to my children who were in total shock and told them to remember that I was the one who picked up the scissors and that my husband was acting in self defense- no help there!

As for other affairs, back in 2003 I surprised him with a gift one afternoon unexpectedly and when I walked into our office he was standing up in front of the webcam with his pants down. In checking all of the accounts I could find, he had 2 different messenger programs, one from 2003 and one from 2011 where there were different women's names on his contact list but only one name on each messenger.

With the children he is completely indifferent. If they were ghosts in our house, he would notice them more. Basically they say hello to him when he walks in the door and good night when they go to bed. He is a horse buff and my daughter is gifted with horses. He has taken her to the stables about 8 times in the past 5 years. He resents my son because he is a little overweight and because he is not a smart mouthed little [censored] like the other neighborhood kids. My son has been told he is fat and will grow up to be gay. My husband once took the kids to a soccer field where all the older neighborhood kids were playing and kicked the ball into my son's chest. My son came home alone in tears because he was hurt and embarrassed. My son will not give my husband the time of day but respects him because he is afraid of him. My husband spent many years berating us at the dinner table. Asking my kids questions about history that they had not yet learned in school and then instead of teaching them, getting mad at them for not knowing. I have tried to address these issues with my husband but I always get the same answer "I am crazy." I was crazy when I told him I knew he was having an affair and he convinced my best friend that I was crazy too. Now we know I wasn't crazy...

Not sure if I can get a VAR here but will try. I am trapped in my house as I work from home 8 hours per day and we only have one car that he uses for work. It is very difficult to get out and buy things or do anything. This is a huge part of the problem. He never helped me when we came here, I learned the language on my own, learned how to get around, etc. without any help from him and now he resents me because I have been here for 10 years and I have not become one of them.
As much as I love him and want to be with the man I married, I know deep down inside I need to leave him. The problem is that I can't leave the country with the kids unless I have his permission or else I will be put in jail for kidnapping and that will solve nothing for anyone. I can't afford a lawyer yet as I just started a new job and haven't been paid yet. I am also still in shock and finding it hard to do anything. Getting through the day without taking a handful of pills is my main goal each morning. I keep a photo of my kids near the computer to remind me how much I have to live for. They are so awesome... I am off to do some reading. THANK YOU!

Wow I'm so sorry for all the abuse you've had to endure.

In your country are there women's shelters? When was the last time he abused you? Do you have all this documented in safe keeping?

I'm so concerned for your safety and your children.

Are your kids his? How old are they?

My kids are his and they are 12 years old. There are shelters but the closest is a 5 hour drive from home and I have no money or way to get there.

Nothing has been documented because the in laws always swept in and saved the day. I live in a community of less than 200 people and what the neighbors think is of the utmost importance to my husband and his immediate family. His brother has just endured a year of total pain and heartache as his wife threw him out and has not let him see the kids. My in laws are stacked with money, divorce lawyers and lots of pain and suffering. Taking me down would be easy for them and since my husband never allowed me to get citizenship here (I have only a work/living permit), my rights are less than the average wife/mother here. I can't risk losing my kids because I am their world, their only parent and without me they would be raised by my in laws who raised my husband!

Honestly the ideal situation would be either for someone to come and scoop us up or for my husband to just get over this and be normal. If he were himself again or something close to it, I would be happy living here. I am starting to think that is just a fairy tale.

I am so stuck you can't imagine. And of course I wish I had the finances to just move to the nearby city but my husband has always been worried that I would leave him and I have not had a bank account in my name for 10 years. I opened one now but we are in such dire straits for money that I spent half of it getting shoes and clothes for the kids and food for the house. My husband was out of work during the affair and stopped paying all of our bills. My mother sent me money to pay the phone and electric while my husband hid the fact that he got a severance pay of 3,000 euro and spent it talking to her on the phone and going to see her.

My children do not know about the affair and honestly I don't want them to know and hate their father even more if we can find a way to work this out.

I also have no way of contacting the OW's husband as I do not know her last name. I only know the municipality where she lives and her screen names.

I am lost and desperate for a "what to do." I am usually so resourceful but this grave is too deep to get out of until my children are of age. I don't want that though, I don't want to lose my husband, I just want him back. Some days it seems like I have him and then sometimes he is just lost. I think he is going through withdrawal and he is clearly depressed and hardening. Do I ride it out?

When was the last time he physically abused you?

Are you safe? I'm very concerned for your safety.

So you can't take the kids out of the country and go to your moms? Will she send you money to get you out? Will he get help for his violence?

Have you read this?
When to cal it quits Part 2

Dear zouzouni,

Your H is not going through withdrawal; he is deep in the affair and has no intention of stopping it for you.

If you were reading this story and it were about someone else, you would tell them immediately to get out of that situation. You would not advise your sister to tolerate this level of abuse-coupled-with-a-never-ending affair - even if you and your sister suffered from terminal sibling rivalry.

You need to get him away from you, but you must not take your kids out of the country without H's permission. You mention the euro currency, so you are in Europe. I can tell already that your H will never agree to your taking the children to the USA. If you try to get them out without his permission, you will probably be committing an offence. You will certainly be committing one when you don't take them back on request, so don't even try to do this under the guise of taking them on holiday.

I don't know what to say just yet about your apparent entrapment in that community with no money and unsupportive in-laws. Others will be able to make suggestion on this. I'll give this more thought today.

But the very most importantly urgent thing that you must do RIGHT NOW is tell your children AND your in-laws (and your mother) about this affair. I don't have the time to go into all the reasons why just now, but again, others will help you here.

This exposure needs to be done immediately and without warning. It does not look as if you need Facebook exposure to accomplish exposure to family, so do it now .

I'm sure you can use Facebook to track down the skanky OW's H and friends. Again, others will help with this.

Stop trying to Plan A NOW, zouzouni. Plan A is a lost cause for you. You have been doing it for far too long and you have also suffered various kinds of abuse. You need immediate relief and protection. Expose the affair and put pressure on H to leave. Then you can go to Plan B until the affair ends.

I am too weak and afraid to ask him to leave.
His parents know, I told them the moment I found out and offered to let them hear the phone conversations. They refused and told me I was a liar. His friends know and not one of them is speaking to him. One of them started yelling at him infront of me saying that he made everyone lie for him just so he could destroy his family. He has lost everything and still today he is posting sappy love songs about not being able to live without her on his facebook because he is sure she is seeing them. I just had a fight with him about that 2 minutes ago.
I am such a basket case right now.
She deleted her facebook account the moment she heard from him that I found out. I can't find her. I try every day.
My kids... I can't tell them. It will kill them and I don't want them to suffer this pain too. Not unless something is going to change, then I would tell them and warn them about what to expect.

Can the US embassy help? The only documentation I have are the recorded phone calls and they discuss planning the trip to meet.

Anther thought... I can contact OW on one specific messenger program. When I caught him talking to her the second time, I sent her a message asking her to leave him alone and saying she was killing him, our family and his kids. She wrote back "he is yours, I will not bother him ever again."

I can contact her and tell her that I want to leave but I need to know for sure if they are still in love and still in contact. I would think that she would answer truthfully because she wants him so badly. Bad idea?

The US embassy might be able to help with advice on your rights within that country, but I am pretty sure they won't be able to help you leave with the children. There will be international law in place that governs that issue for the country that you are in, and I highly doubt that it will allow you take the children without H's permission. The US embassy won't be able to override the law.

I know that, as a British national, if I were married to foreign national and we visited his country, the British embassy would treat me and the children as "foreign" if we got into trouble in that foreign national's country. (So if I married a US citizen and visited the USA, I and the dependent children become US nationals while we are there, and the British government would not help us if we got into trouble.)

If the same is true of the USA and the country you are in, then I'm sorry.

You need to find out a lot more about your rights. See how much you can find out online - usually quite a lot.

Someone PLEASE gently beat some sense into zouzouni on this one.

Two days ago he threatened to kill me if I told the children. Last night I became so upset that I was throwing up - water as there is nothing else in my system. He came into the bathroom in a rage because he was afraid the children would hear me. I said "hear me what? Getting sick! We all get sick sometimes." I am treading on thin ice here.

Then you need to report the death threat to the police, get a protective order, and contact a DV shelter.

You cannot fix a violent abuser, if not for your own sake, then your children's sake, you need to get out before you are dead and cannot protect them anymore.

Not necessarily a bad idea, but you might not get the truth.

I did this to OW in my H's international (UK/Belgium) affair. I phoned asking for the truth, because if he really wanted her he could have her, but he was lying to me.

OW at first refused to speak to me, but when she finally did, she told me that she accepted that the affair was over, that my H loved me, and that she did not want to break up my marriage. She knew that if she interfered enough to make me leave my H for not getting rid of her, she wouldn't win him anyway, because my H would resent her so much for breaking up his marriage that he would not go to her. She knew that if he wanted to leave he would have left by then (about 3.5 years into the PA, after several D Days) so the fact that he hadn't left told her that he did not want to go. So she would leave us alone.

She put the phone down to me, picked it up and dialled H, and told him that it was okay, she had reassured me that she would be out of the picture, so it was okay for them to try and see each other again. They never saw each other again, but the EA continued by phone for nearly 5 years after that phone call. She would phone him at work - never at home - and he simply would not tell me. This all came to light when he about to retire last year, and finally sent his first-ever email from our PC to her - and I trapped it on the keylogger.

From much puzzling it out with my H and her H, I realised that she felt she had much to gain by NOT telling me 'I want him and I won't give him up" - in fact telling me the opposite. If she had told me that they were in love and she was fighting to keep him, my H would have been furious and possibly stopped speaking to her. He was a cake-eating champion and never wanted to end his marriage, so the more she pushed for him to end the marriage, the more she drove him away. Only by giving the impression that she was happy being his whore on the side was she able to keep him.

She was married with two late teenagers and a full-time, well-paid job working for the EU. She was even living in another country to do this job (Luxembourg, Monday to Friday, returning to her marital home in Belgium at the weekends.) In theory, it was easy for her to leave her H and demand that my H leave me, but in practice, she was too insecure to go it alone if my H did not follow. She wanted the security of her marriage, even though she could not stand her H and had moved out of the home (without giving him any clue about the affair). So, lying about the affair being over was a good strategy on her part.

I don't think you can count on OW telling you the truth - but you can try. Contacting OW is sometimes a good idea - but you need a thick skin because she might well tell you he never loved you, you grew fat and dull after you had kids, you don't make him feel loved and she does, you're rubbish at sex, and you are pathetic. My H's didn't do this, but some do.

Thank you for sharing. It helps tremendously. I am feeling so alone and "unique" these days... I need to give it some thought. Tomorrow is Friday and I will call the embassy. I will think about contacting her and asking her if we can talk. I am pretty sure I can handle any negativity from her but some of your points make a lot of sense. She is married with 2 small kids, I heard my husband refer to one of them as "the baby" in their conversations. I am doubtful she would leave the security of home and her children so telling me lies might be the best way for her to handle this. The thing that bothers me the most is that the songs they are sending each other always talk about "waiting and being patient to be together again." I am sure they talked about divorce and perhaps ended it with the fact that they can only chat and talk while he is at work and they will someday be together again. Won't this fizzle eventually since they can't see each other and the sneaking around is at a minimum?

the police here would laugh at me and tell the family what I did. I saw it happen with another woman not too long ago. Her husband used it against her and got the kids and threw her out. We are talking stuck like crazy glue stuck...

This sounds like someplace that Sacha Baron Cohen made a film about - but I didn't think we had such places in the EU.

lol... You mean Borat! First time I have laughed in a month! Not that bad but CLOSE. I live in farm country, half of the population of my village is illiterate and most do not have many teeth. I am an educated New Yorker... Imagine how hard my transition was and I did it alone.

Maybe. Are you prepared to wait for this to happen? Are you prepared to be his children's nanny and his cook and housecleaner while he stays intimately involved with OW?

Remember, my H's EA continued for 5 FLIPPING YEARS after he changed jobs so that he would not be required to travel any more. And, far from fizzling out, it was hotting up again when I discovered the email last year. They were planning to meet again, because her H was taking early retirement and moving back to their home country in September. Even if my H were not free to travel to her - which he would have been, really, since it's only 3 hours by train from London to Brussels - she would have been free to travel to him, coming to stay at hotels in London. I would never have known that the "meeting" he was in when I rang his office was actually a sex session in a central London hotel. This happened to me before, after D Day when I was watching him like a hawk. This would have happened again.

Who knows when and whether the affair will fizzled out? Some mistress whores wait for OM for 15 years. My younger child was 6 when the affair started and 14 last year when I intercepted the email with them planning to meet. Who is to say that in a couple of years after that, my H would not have deemed my son old enough to understand and cope without a father, and moved out to be with her?

Who is to say? Is that a risk you are willing to take?

Now, you made ME laugh!

zouzouni, I have to go out for a couple of hours. Please keep posting questions to this thread and other people will answer them. We have wonderful people here always helping - but you have to keep posting, because we are kept busy answering the active threads.

When is the last time he was physically abusive to you?

Are your inlaws Christian?

Can you start putting money aside?

Also you need to expose to the OW's BH. Read this Exposure 101

Here's what Dr. Harley says about telling the children.

The Harley's discuss telling the children even as young as 4 about the affair

Hi BrianHurts... The last time he was physically abusive to me was Oct 22, 2008. Funny that I can even remember it was around 3pm. That was the time he held the scissors to my throat and my father in law threatened to kick him out of our house if he ever raised a hand to me again.

My in laws are a mixed breed when it comes to religion. My mother in law is a Jehova's Witness and very fanatical about it. I have nothing against it and she has finally stopped trying to convert me as I am from an Italian heritage and a devout Catholic. Yet there are no catholic churches in my area and the local priest told me I had to convert or I was not welcome in the church.

I am trying to put money aside but this is a very big issue with my husband. He is still furious that I have my own bank account. I am trying to put 100-50 a way per month which means it will take forever.

My daughter asks me what's wrong, every single day. They both know that something is up and I keep telling them that I can't say. Will read the link, thanks!

P.S. Can't find out who the other woman is and the directories here are limited. Most people have these cheap SIM cards that cost 5 euro and they are only traceable through the legal system. I have no idea what her last name is and I search the internet every day to find some trace of her or her family. I only have her screen names but they are not listed on most websites as they are here in Europe.

zouzouni, you never really answered my question about whether you would be willing to wait this out.

I think we need to know a few more details. Are your children nationals of your H's country? (If they were born there then this is likely.) Have you any idea whether they would be entitled to USA nationality?

I have spoken to somebody who has some knowledge of cases where one parent has taken the children away unilaterally, and there has been a court case. (This person is not a lawyer and neither am I.) Having done that, I think I should retract what I said about not taking your children out of the country. I think you need to find a way to get your children out of that country.

This might be difficult, though, if you have USA nationality and they do not. I know that in the UK, a parent travelling alone with the kids, where they have UK nationality and the travelling parent does not, will be stopped from leaving the country until the border authorities are satisfied that the parent has the spouse's permission to take the kids away. The UK government, and no doubt other European governments, is acting this way because of the growing number of child "kidnapping" cases by one parent.

But, if you can get your kids away, perhaps by telling your H that you are taking them to see their American grandparents, then you stand some chance of being able to stay away, especially if you tell a court about physical and emotional abuse followed by an affair. This, though, would take co-operation from the kids, and you will never get that if you do not tell them why you are keeping them in the USA. You would have to tell them about the affair and physical abuse. The kids would have to tell a court that they wanted to live in the USA, and they won't do that if they do not understand what has happened in your marriage.

So, the options seem to be first, for you to get out of that house and ideally out of the country. Can you squirrel away small amounts of money from your mother to work towards that goal?

The second option is to wait out the affair for at least six years until your children are 18 and can make their own decision to leave with you. This sounds like a horrendously long time, but it can be done if you think the end goal is worth it. If the affair appears to be ongoing during that time, or if your H continues his ill-treatment of you, you must keep him at arms length to protect your physical and mental health. You need to live with him with enough civility for him to support you and keep his hands off you, but with enough distance for you not to be hurt by his affair.

What do you feel able to do?

ZZ,

I am so sorry! It pains me to read your post, especially the parts that involve your children. Early on in your post you stated that your husbands brother's wife kicked him out and will not let him see the children? Do you know the reasons for this? Are the similar to your own? Is there any way you can contact your sister in law for help with your situation?

I feel that I have no choice but to wait this out. My children have dual citizenship. They were born in the USA and my husband has signed them into our community registry and has them marked as citizens here.

A trip home would cost something like 5,000 euro (that is what it cost when I found a special rate on tickets and went for a visit in 2008). Right now he is so worried that I will leave, he would never let us go.

I realized last night that I am obsessing over this affair and his still being in contact with her because I don't know what to make of his actions and I have no way of knowing if he has ended the affair or not.

He had been on the computer yesterday and I commented that he always plays songs about missing someone and wanting to be in their arms again. He had a fit and told me he was going to password protect his computer so no one can touch it. I told him that our relationship would be over immediately if he did that. He mentioned something similar later in the afternoon. I left the room. About 20 minutes after I left the room, he went out for a bike ride with his cell phone. He has never done this before. I decided to go for a walk in the village to he corner store and we looked for him but he was nowhere to be found. Probably hiding somewhere in some corner talking to her. I asked him if he called her and he said no. He said he is sick of me constantly nagging him about the same things over and over again and if I can just be patient and let some time pass, I will see that what he is saying is true.

He slept on the sofa again last night and the night before. I have asked him not to do this but he doesn't seem to care about how much it bothers me.

I feel like I need to let go and push him away but then I feel like this is exactly what I did once before and it resulted in an affair. How do I stop following him around, checking on him, making all the wrong comments and nagging him. How do I let this go? I have never been any good at playing mind games and quite frankly, my mind is totally fried at this point.

Dear fifteenyears, thank you for joining my post, I can use all the help I can get. My sister in law was never a nice or happy person and she was jealous and rude to me from the start. I noted on a few occasions that her husband publicly berated her and I did not like it at all. Yet this is very common where I live -the men are superior to the women. She will not accept my calls or anything from me because she thinks it is a trap. I really do not know many details about their divorce at all. I am extremely doubtful that he cheated on her, I think he was just mean and possibly abusive (mentally for sure, physyically... not so sure).

You can't stop snooping on him until he starts acting like a married man and stops his affair.

So you're going to wait this out and put money aside?

Sugarcane gave you some excellent advice.

So you're not going to expose his affair and demand he stop his affair? So you will continue to live like this why he goes out and cheats?

Then you need to protect yourself and not have sex with him and hope his ticking bomb doesn't go off on you.

You can't recover your marriage with three people in your M.

I was going to say all that, and this time Brainy got there first.

It was not my idea that you should just put up with his affair and stop snooping. It was not my suggestion that "waiting it out" involved trusting him and letting go of your suspicions.

It should be more like planning a prison escape. You need to play nice just to the extent that he stops ill-treating you, but not to the extent where he possibly has sex with his whore and also with you. You do not know where that nasty woman has been and you do not want to be picking up her diseases. Also, trying to have a loving marriage with a man who is having an affair harms a wife's emotional and physical health. You should not allow your self to become sucked in.

So, plan your prison escape carefully. Find a way to save money in an account of which he has no knowledge. Get your mother's support. Find a place to escape to within your country if your H becomes violent or abusive again. And although six years is longest you should have to wait, you might get an opportunity (or be forced) to leave before that time, so find out your rights and grab any opportunities.

I do not support your keeping the children ignorant about the affair. I don't see how that can be protecting them. They already know that something is badly wrong between their parents and they do not know what. It is cruel to leave the facts to their worst imagination. They need to know who or what is threatening their family and that they have one parent - you - who will look after them and defend them no matter what. If you keep them in the dark about their father's affair and other ill-treatment you are failing to protect them.

Does your mother know about the affair?

Zouzouni,

Please listen to Sugarcane.

Ok, thanks. My mother knows about the affair. She can't help as she has suffered seriously in the economic crisis and had to choose between losing her job or losing almost half of her salary. She is an excellent form of support and I speak to her almost every day. My in laws know about the affair and my husband's 2 brothers know about it. His two best friends know about the affair, one of them (the most important to him) has cut him off completely until he has his life back together and knows that he is treating me right. The other is keeping a distance to some degree. My 4 closest friends know about the affair and although timing is an issue, I am talking to them here and there. Two of them have been through their husbands having had an affair, one is still with her husband after 7 years and the other is divorced.

I don't know how to confront my husband again. I haven't caught him again, they are only suspicions and I am starting to question my own sanity at this point.

You're not crazy he's a wayward.

Please read these and you'll see they follow the wayward script.
Never Take the word of a wayward
Craziest things to come out of a wayward's Piehole

about the prison escape... I have been trying to plan such an escape for 8 years and haven't managed to do anything right. It is hard to imagine that I was once the strongest, most independent person I knew and my friends and colleagues looked to me for advice. I sit here a withered bag of bones who pays homage to a hateful man. He has used the children against me as they are my weakest point and managed to get me down so hard under his thumb that I don't even know which way is up. I chalked it up as a waiting game in the past. Waiting for the children to grow.

Today a good friend offered me a phone call with a counselor who speaks English. I am trying to set up an appointment for Monday morning. I really believe that I have to pull myself out of this rut somehow before I can make any kind of attempt at doing anything else. I am still an anxious, shaky mess and I am not eating or sleeping. I can't get out of my funk and right now that is the most important thing to me. To be able to function normally again.

Can You get to your doctor for some meds?

Dr. Harley recommends AD or anti anxiety meds.

Please read this What Are Plan A & B

In this country I can go to any pharmacy and ask for anything I want as long as it is not narcotic. Any thoughts?

What country are you in and what are you looking to get, AD? Some drug names vary from country to country. I am a pharmacist in the US and i can help you make by making some suggestions and cross reference for you with your country drug names.

Greece and anything that will stop me from crying all day, in public, thoughts of suicide, total breakdowns when my husband gives me a look or says something nasty. I need to think clearly for the first time in a month.

i am also overcome by constant anxiety. this is a new one for me and there are times I feel like my heart will jump out of my chest. I do not have any allergies and I have/had an iron stomach. Lately I can't seem to keep food down and live on water and coffee.

I have to say that I am completely overwhelmed with the support i am receiving here. You are all so amazing. My friends and family have tried but it is here and there. I feel like I have someplace to go and I am not alone. THANK YOU

This is why Dr. Harley tells women to only be in Plan A for 3 weeks because of health problems and auto immune problems.

You've been in this for years. We've had posters suffer from PTSD.

Are you going to expose to your children? Have you found out who the OW is?

Seriously considering the exposure to my children but need the right time and place to talk it through. Want to be able to talk to them without breaking down constantly like a basket case.

Can't find the OW. Constantly seeking but no luck. I think she mentions her last name on the recorded conversations but I just can't bring myself to listen to them again right now. Even with her name (and I know her husband's name is Nikos) I still have to find a way to figure out who they are. Another fear is that her husband might be on to her and with this new info he might divorce her. I have her 15 hours away right now and if she is thrown out of her house, loses her kids.. I think she would come straight to my husband.

zouzouni, you are getting great advice from the others. Please sit your children down and tell them about their fathers affair. Tell them how unhappy he is making you. They must have the facts about this situation. If you don't tell them the truth, your H will tell them lies about you. Don't let them remain in a state of confusion about their own lives.

Dr. Harley on telling the children:

here



here

here


Go to 8:40 in this clip: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3694

and then it finishes up here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3695

Did you listen to the radio clip that I posted to you on telling the children?

You don't know what OW's BH will do. Most likely he will be your biggest ally and end the affair on OW's end.

Can you have a friend listen to hear the name?

If I expose this to my children, they will have to keep it a secret. If my husband finds out, there is a very good chance that he will go into a rage and my children will be left without a mother. I honestly and truly fear for my life in telling them and that is why I am so hesitant. Them knowing and keeping it a secret might be worse than them not knowing.

I have been pinned by a pair of scissors at the neck, this would be the worst thing I have ever done in his eyes.

Plus don't you think OW's BH has a right to know? Wouldn't you want to be told?

Yes,I want to find the OW's husband. I really do.

Can you have a friend listen to the tape to get her name?

Celius and buspirone might be a good starting point. Celius will take 2 to 3 weeks to work. The buspirone can help with anxiety. It looks like both are not narcotics in greece, so you should be able to ask for them. I dont know how the pharmacies are there or if there are language barriers if they do mot speak english, but they should be able to answer questions about dosages amd recommemdations. If not, i will help out.

I'll make my self listen next week while he is at work. Even then, I will need to see how I can find them as they live on an island.

Thank you. I will try to get to a pharmacy this weekend to see what they say and will let you know.

Try this when you get the name.
Trying to figure out identity

Briainhurts, I tried every website I could find on identity and there are very few listings for Greece or she is scared and hiding herself to the best of her ability. I know I would be... I haven't given up and I won't.

On another joyous note... About 3 weeks after my husband met this woman and had sex with her, I started a bad yeast infection. When I found out about the affair, I had my period 3 times in a row. I chalked them both up to stress. Then the yeast came back and I used a 3 day cure. Got my period a 4th time (yeah my body is really going through the ringer) and now, 4 days after it stopped, I have the yeast back but this is different than your average infection. I am very worried about an STD. Have to take some time off my new job to go get tested now. Thankfully I can make an appointment with H's insurance and not pay for it. I'll tell the doc everything and ask for a full workup. This is like the gift that keeps on giving.

I'm so sorry to hear this latest, zz. Please get fully tested as soon as possible, and don't go near your H ever again unless he is tested and clear, and you can see he is not in an affair. We can acquire some STDs without penetrative sex. I believe that the HPV virus is like that, and this can lead to fatal cervical cancer.

Your situation is probably one in which there are no good answers. Whatever you do is likely to result in someone getting hurt. It is just a case of choosing the lesser of the hurts.

If it were me and there really was no way to leave with the children, I�d probably stick it out for another six years with a view to leaving immediately that time is up. However, if your H becomes very abusive, your health or even life might be at risk. You need to have somewhere to escape to in an emergency.

I am going to stick it out for as long as possible. At least for the 6 years I need to. Maybe by then his affair will be over!

I have a lead on the OW's H and going to make some phone calls today to see if it is him.

I also have an appointment with a gyno later this week.

The children have a day off next Monday and we will have time alone. I will talk to them then but I am still not sure if them keeping it a secret is going to be the best way to go about it.

Right now there is peace and I feel much better. I am over the shock and H hasn't done anything to upset the balance so I am thinking clearly for the first time in a month. I have decided not to take anti depressants or anything for the anxiety as I have started to eat normally again this weekend and I slept so much that I feel caught up.

After all the reading and all the advice, I am not believing a word H says and I am still checking on him as much as possible.

There are 2 things that happened over the weekend that I am confused about. Maybe someone can shed some light or offer their opinion?

1) A song about being in love was on the radio and I asked my husband "Are you in love" He started laughing nervously and after a considerable amount of time I asked again and said "maybe you are in love with 2 people?" and she said "yes, "I am in love with my children."

2) I had sent the OW a message on the 2nd DDay asking her to leave him alone and telling her that she is killing him, our family and that my children are suffering. I said "He is MINE." She answered the next day saying "he is yours, I will not bother him ever again." My H asked me to look at that account. I had never mentioned the messages. I asked him why and he said that I check on him all the time so he wants to check on me. I immediately knew that she told him, which means that they are still in contact. He denied it and opened the messages to see them. Then he argued with me relentlessly to delete them and I told him I would only delete them if he told me why it was so important. He did not have an answer.

I hope all goes well at your gyno visit. Prayers sent up.

Yes his response is very normal for an addictive wayward. One of my WH's OW said that same thing and I knew right away she was still in contact with him. That's when I blew up their world and exposed to her BH in person and on facebook and to all his footballl budies.

Can you email the radio show?

They will pull the reverse fog talk to take the light off them and on you.

Such a typical wayward tactic.

Have you read these? Never take the word of a Wayward
Craziest thing to come out of a Wayward's Piehole

Please listen to these radio clips of Dr. Harley advising a woman whom her H has been physcial with.
Radio clip
Segment #2
Segment #3

Did some searching today. Found secret email account that he denies having. Can't hack into it. It is a @live.com account. Also visited his Facebook page and saw several love songs that he posted so only a certain woman's friends could see them. That woman is not the OW but she might be another one or a friend of the OW. I blocked and deleted her from his FB.

CAN'T LIVE LIKE THIS ANYMORE!

This is why I worry about you staying in this condition. You could come down with PTSD and then who will take care of your children?

I know you can't find OW's BH but I'm sure if you did a facebook exposure messages would get to him.

How was calling that number you thought might be her BH?

You must calm down and think strategically, zz. You knew that this affair (or perhaps another one) was continuing and you appear to have accepted that, and decided to keep at arms length from him.

You should be glad that you found this out because you now know the basis on which you are working. He is in an affair and is not protecting you or his marriage.

Keep planning for the future. Think about ways of getting money. Talk to a consultate official about shelter, and about your rights with the kids. Make sure you attend the gyno appointment.

There is one possibility that we haven't explored, and that is getting your children out legally. You could apply to a court for the right to move the kids to the USA. I know that you would face severe opposition from your H, but you could talk to a lawyer at least to find out how the legal route would work.

There is a lot to do. Work through it systematically, and stay calm!

I sent a message to the secret account and told him I was going to expose to Facebook, the entire village we live in and to all of his family. I gave him one week to come clean about everything in the email. He came home in a VERY BAD MOOD. But when I asked him if anything was wrong, he said "no, what do you want from me now?"

I can't get my head on straight. Almost lost my job today because I was too busy searching and that was a bit of a wakeup call. I need to start using my free time more wisely to help myself and stop tracking him. I know he is doing something and I know he would not have been in a nasty mood today if he did not see that email.

I know I need a lawyer, I know I need psych help at this point and it always feels like everything is moving too fast to keep up with or so slow that I can't stand it. Oh GOD help me get my head on straight.

zz, I don't want to sound cross with you but that really was not a smart move. You need to come here first with every piece of new information you find and we will tell you what to do with it. We would never have told you to tell him that you have found the secret email account at this stage. You might have lost a good means of spying on him now.

Were you able to see what was in the email account? Were you able to read any of the emails?

Remind me please: does he use your home PC? If so, get a keylogger on that, and get hold of his phone also and download spyware on to that.

No, no you never warn them you're going to expose. You just expose with no warning.

Come here and ask for advice.

I do not have access to the new account. I found it doing a search of his computer. I asked him about it 2 weeks ago but he denied having it. Now I clearly found it in his computer but have tried hacking and was not able to get in. He has a very advanced cleaning program in his comp. he is very tech savvy too. If I put a keylogger in and he found out... it might be the end of me.

After sending an email to that address, he did not mention anything. He is just mad about something he refuses to share.

Tried every possible contact I have on the island where the OW lives and called a few #'s I found in a listing. Can't find OW or her BH. Facebook is not working and i have been on hundreds of websites searching their names..

zz, I understand that you are afraid, but you do need to gather some courage and sort out your life. Even in he part of the world where you now live, your H is not allowed to kill you because he finds a keylogger! Do you really think he would do that? Really? Think it through.

You should read more about keyloggers in our forum Operation Investigate. I haven't come across a situation where a reputable keylogger was found. The spouse would have to suspect that one was there, and run some sort of sophisticated search to find it.

That is why you must not let your H become suspicious of the fact that you are spying on him by sending emails to his secret accounts BEFORE you are ready to expose. You must develop inscrutability and calmness, and make it look as if you are not agitated about anything since his last reassurance.

You should be able to find the password to his emails accounts - including secret one - and the means by which he sends her Facebook messages in just a few days, and then you can un-install the keylogger if you are worried. If you can find out how he contacts her on Facebook, you can get into her contacts list and expose.

Please read this thread about keyloggers and whatever you do DO NOT LEAVE YOUR COMPUTER OPEN where he can see what you have been researching. Also, browse incognito and clear your history every time you log off.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2472071&page=all

zz, below is a post that shows the kind of thing you have to guard against before you install a keylogger. This is about your PC disabling the keylogger, though. This post is not about a techie spouse snooping and finding the keylogger. I haven't come across one of those yet, as I said.

For the first time in more than a month I got disgusted yesterday and unfortunately, I let loose on my husband. I hadn't done that since I found out and it felt very good. H and I talked for more than 5 hours. Aside from many other things, we agree that we are both exhausted and want some peace. We made an agreement to disagree on some things and spend our time talking/arguing about how to repair our relationship instead of dwelling on the past and the affair. We also agreed to be honest and open. I don't know how far that will go but I have been doing that from day one and I hope he will too. He did disclose a lot of information yesterday and did admit to being both physically and emotionally abusive toward me. First time ever. WE talked in length about respect, boundaries and needs. We used one of the tools from this website to see which needs are most important and ironically our lists were almost identical. If I can get him to do the questions next time, even better.

We talked about the secret account and he denies having anything to do with it. Told me I found it in his computer because I put it there in trying to open it. When we looked at it together, we noted the time and date that the account was created in his computer and it was done during the day while he was working. Together we did a search for the account and paid for a service to see who the account belongs to and it turns out that it belongs to a guy in WA state. That discounts that account but I have no way of knowing if there is yet another one somewhere.

I realize the need to be stealthy and diligent in not giving up the search. I don't think I could if I wanted to. But at least now, I feel like I can do it without going crazy.

He offered to turn over his cell phone with everything in it, just as it is. Same with the computer. I accepted them both. He told me he will stay away from the gadgets for as long as it takes to make me see that he is not in contact with her. At work he has a computer but no internet access. He comes straight home from work and stays home all night, with me. This I can live with for a while, it feels good and I am eating breakfast as I write this.

I am not giving up though. I will still try to find the OW's husband and will see about the eblaster. I had decided against it (and other similar programs) when I realized that a simple program called "Spybot Search and Destroy" was said to be able to find and delete it. We both have this program installed in our computers. I might be able to work around that and Defender, will have to look into it. At some point he will have his computer back and I need to be prepared...

For now, I just want to take a few days to get my strength back and be a mom again, be myself again. I have been awake for an hour and already I have finished the housework and have lunch going. This is the first time I am actually doing "my thing" since DDay. It feels SO GOOD.

Will keep you posted on progress with the spyware for phone/computer and ask if I have questions or if something else happens. THANKS GUYS!

I am feeling very uneasy about his "attempts" right now. They sounds eerily familiar and it is making very nervous for you. Keep a skeptical thought about this. He maybe attempting to "work" on things when all he is doing is trying to get you back under his control so his abuse continue. Google."cycle of abuse" you should see a pattern. I did and that scared the hell out of me. Prayers for you.

Be aware that some unfaithful spouses resort to being sneakier....like getting other secret cell phones and hiding them...mine did that. You will still need to be vigilant.

I don't have time to read your whole thread right now, Zou. But abusers are VERY good at explaining, justifying, being sweet, and trying to convince you that you are the crazy one. You are NOT. Whatever you do, don't let him suck you into that craziness cycle. Know what you know, and don't even give him room to argue.

Been there, done that.

And . . . what Logans_Run said.

Yes, I am aware of the cycle of abuse. Learned about it long ago when I first needed to know. I realize it is only a matter of time before the ugliness returns but I am different now. I refuse to walk on eggshells anymore. There is no way I am taking anything from a liar, cheater, monster. I am weak when it comes to his affair, but it is still early. Give me some time to muster up some anger and hatred for it. Since the first DDay I got it in my head that he is never going to raise a hand to me again, he is never going to psychologically or emotionally abuse me again and when I recognize that it is starting - even a little, I have been ignoring him and telling him to just stop the abuse and shut up. He is taking it because he feels guilty. I am making it clear to him that the has no rights in this marriage, that I am in control now and he can take it or leave it. I grew bold enough to tell him that either he gives 100% or we are done. I have never given him an ultimatum before and usually at the tiny mention of leaving or divorce, he flies into a rage because he is so insecure. He shut up and took it this time. If there is one thing more overwhelming to him than rage, it is guilt. His mama taught him that one -she is the master manipulator with guilt.

I realized that he has been searching in my computer as my office applications save a list of previously opened files. I saw docs in there that I haven't opened for ages. There is nothing in my life that he can find as I have never been unfaithful. So, I put in some info on abuse and translated it into his language. If he want's reading material, let him find something worth reading.

Over the past 10 years I forgot how great I am. I am awesome! I forgot how many amazing things I have accomplished in my life even when all the odds were against me. And, I am on a mission to get some kind of counseling. Even if he refuses, I will go.

Today is day 2 of being normal and it feels... normal. I am well rested and I even indulged in some ice cream yesterday after dinner. I am not breaking this new cycle of empowerment, I have decided to use my pain and suffering and turn it into anything that makes me strong. I am taking over the house, getting my life back to where I want it to be and if he is an obstacle in any way, then I will do whatever it takes to get him out of my happy picture. Be it a shelter, another apartment... I don't care what I have to do.

I am so sick and tired of being afraid and not knowing what to do. The risk of leaving him is far less than the risk of staying and I told him so. I made it clear that all he has to do is give me the reason and WE are over. I told him I should have left or thrown him out the moment I found out and I had made a hasty decision while I was still in shock. I asked him to leave right after that, but not out of anger, I asked him with compassion to just leave his family alone. I told him that a separation for at least a month would be very good for us. I think he nearly died. He sees that I am not being "pushed over" anymore.

I firmly believe that he has no way of contacting her and the money is accounted for. Every cent. If he so much as spends 10 cents more than he should, I want to see the gum wrapper. If not, we have a deal breaker. I check the car every day and his boss does not allow cell phones at work. His every moment of every day is accounted for. I don't know how long this will last but I have chained the beast for the first time in 10 years.

Question to anyone who is tech savvy. I want to install a keylogger in our computer. The problem is that my husband has spybot search and destroy which he has started running every other day. I can disable the keylogger or the scans but he will notice. Right now, the best I have found is Powered Keylogger as our Avast does not find it. Is there something that SSD doesn't find?

While we wait for those lazy north Americans to wake up, have you had a good read in the Operation Investigate forum? Someone there will have asked this question already. That forum is a wealth of valuable information.

ZZ,

I would make a serious effort to get advice on how to get you and the kids out of the country. Since your mother is here, I would enlist her (financial) help as well.

What does your mother (parents, sisters, brothers?) think of his putting scissors to your throat?

This is way beyond my paygrade, but that you didn't haul [censored] out of Greece when the scissors were put to your throat is a bit surprising. I understand the complications with the small town, the in-laws, the local authorities but, well, what is it going to take for you to seriously try to get out of there?

C'mon now, where's that NY stereotype?

Right now, your husband's full of sh*t and you know it. He's laying low until you stop complaining about his cheating on you. Putting a keylogger on his computer is, to me, secondary compared to the elephant in the room.

Focus on the larger issue: getting you and the kids out of the country. Find out what your (and his) legal rights are with regards to travelling with the kids out of the country. Find out if y'all can leave without his permission. I'd presume that they'd need a passport to exit.

I have researched every possible avenue and there is no getting out legally. I have spoken to the Embassy, a lawyer here and a lawyer in the US. There is no documented proof of his abuse (i would need Emergency Room photos, etc.) All he would need to do is call the local authorities and tell them I kidknapped the kids. INTERPOL would be on me! This would ruin my kids lives forever - being raised by their grandmother while their father is off with his girlfriend and having their mother in jail... NOT AN OPTION.

I can only wait it out. Things are quiet now and I know I can keep them manageable. I need to know if he is still talking to her or not. I need to find hard evidence so I can show it to his family (EVERYONE), to the village and upload it on his facebook. Hard evidence will give me the right to leave. Even if I only go to the nearby city and get an apartment, that will be a big plus. But without the proper exposure (should have done it in the beginning... I know) I am stuck. So the elephant needs to step aside for the moment and someone please help me find a keylogger!

zz, download desktop shark. it is free for the first three days, but you can switch to the pay version if you don't have what you need by then. put it on the exclusions list, and make sure you delete it from the downloads file and the history.

Tried desktopshark and his spybot found it and deleted it right after I turned it back on. I am disabling windows defender, avast and spybot for the installs but then when I turn them back on and do the spybot scan... it finds everything. can't risk that.

You have to add those files (desktopshark) into the exceptions list for the avast, windows defender and spybot...though I vaguely recall spybot being one where you had to click on "ignore" when it finds the file to get it to ignore it in the future.

If you don't add the files to the exceptions list then any antivirus worth its salt will find the spyware.

Update us please ZZ....let us know your ok.

So I was ok for a little while and I need help again...
Today marks 7 weeks since DDay1 and exactly 4 weeks since DDay2. In the last week I came to believe that my WH had stopped talking to his AP. He was spending little or no time on the computer (big deal cause this was a cyber affair that lead to 1 night in a hotel) and there were occasions where he left his phone behind or couldn't find it in the house (previously, it was ALWAYS in his pocket and he slept with it in hand for 6mos).

When I ask him if he is talking to her at all, his answer is a simple and non-hesitant "NO." I started to feel better. I started to eat again. I slept but not without nightmares. I am still very anxious and jumpy but I began to do better at work and have started doing things with my children again.

2 days ago my H posted a song on facebook. It was Mic Jagger's "Old habits die hard." For those of you who do not know the song, it is about losing someone you love and not being able to get over it. Although he and his AP are not friends on facebook, I searched her email address and found that she has another account under a fake name. They are not friends but they can see each other's activity. Hers is mainly blocked from those who are not her friends but they can certainly message each other and she can see the songs he posts.

I was livid. He is letting her know how he feels. I confronted him and he denied knowing any of the lyrics of the song. Yet, he posted the version with the lyrics! He denied knowing that she had another account. Yet when I visited her account from his, there were several photos that he had clicked "like" on.

He is LYING TO ME CONSTANTLY. I can't get him to accept full disclosure, he will not talk about the A. I am supposed to get over this but he is still posting songs to her (there were hundreds of them during the A and this is how I caught on originally).

I closed his facebook account and changed the password. He was not happy about it.

I can't do the 180. I just can't. We don't have that kind of setup. I am forced to be in the house constantly and even though I go for a walk each evening, it is not enough. I am in a foreign country, have no friends, no support system and no car. Money is a huge issue so I can't really do anything and we are not having any fun together.

He has also stopped wanting to be intimate with me. The last time was more than a week ago and he had difficulty half way through. This is the first time that has ever happened in 15 years. And what we were doing at the moment was pretty darn good!

I don't know what to do or what to think. I have stared obsessing again. I know that no food will go in my mouth as I have that hard knot in my stomach again.

I told him I know that he thinks he is in love with her and in truth it is a fantasy. I looked up tons of info on this and wrote a few small paragraphs for him to read. He read them and had no comment. When I ask him if he loves her, he says no. He says the reason he had the A was purely for sex. Yet their correspondences, phone calls and song sending became more intense and more in "love" after they met for one night.

What he is going through now, is it normal? I have tried explaining to him how important it is for him to cut all ties with her. I have given him an ultimatum in that he chooses me or her because neither of us want to share him. I have promised an amicable split and told him that this is not what I want but I will do whatever is best for us and our children.

Do you think he is still talking to her? Is he going through something that I can't understand? Is there any kind of time frame for him to get over her. Knowing that the affair lasted about 4 months in cyberspace, lead to a night in a hotel and then a month later I found out about it. Their last phone conversation that I know of, was on the 10th of May.

Please... any insights will be greatly appreciated. Help me as I am at the end of my rope here.

Did you ever get the keylogger installed? Did you see Northwood's advice?

Did you ever facebook exposure? Find OW's BH?

I have tried hundreds of keyloggers and even befriended a real computer geek. There is nothing I can put in his computer that he can't find. I wish I knew how to write code myself.

I have not exposed on FB because things were going smooth and I was doing well. This would be a total blow up and I am sure it will end in separation/divorce or worse.

My problem is that I had an amazing relationship with my husband for 5 years in the beginning. We had problems throughout the years but there were many times that we talked and got along well. We have very similar personalities and we have a great time together when we are out having fun. We like the same things and there is still something there if we can capture it and make it the new normal. I love him. I love him so much and it hurts so freakin bad. I wish I could scream it in his face but I am sure he wouldn't care.

P.S. Can't find this woman and have purchased things to track her online. I even sent a friend to the island where she lives to try to track her down. I know the first names of everyone in her family but still not sure about the last name. My friend had no luck. I NEED to find this man and tell him about his wife.

You said you have her facebook? This is why we have been recommending exposure. They just took their affair deeper underground.

Did you make a copy of her facebook friends? You need to expose this now.

I can't see her facebook friends from his account or mine. And what if they did not take this deeper underground? I expose and lose everything. Things like that are NOT done here.

Can you make a fake account to see? I thought you told Sugarcane you were going to live like this for the next 6 years?

This is what I've been stressing and worried for you, the mental anguish. Can you afford the coaching center?

Email the Harleys. Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com.

Thanks

Have you googled support groups for the domestic violence? I am so scared for you about escalating violence, physical and mental. It does get worse. I know how difficult it is to break away, how terrifying it is. You get used to the drama of the abuser, it becomes "normal". It isnt. I am so worried for you.

zz, your choices for living in that country for another 6 years are either:

1. You live in the house and become indifferent to the affair and your H. Snoop if you want to know the status of things, but do not confront or try to stop it. Have no more sex with your H, BTW. (What was the result of your STD test?) Simply co-exist and mark the time until the kids are 18 and can choose to stay there or go to the USA with you. Do not confront H because you do not want to risk violence, but also because you must protect your mental health. Disengage with him, except for surface politeness, completely.

2. You leave the house and stay in the country, again until the kids are 18. That would be my preferred option. This will clearly take some arranging of finances and a place to live, etc.

I was in no way suggesting that you stick with him for six years, trying to put the affair behind you and have a fulfilling marriage. You cannot do that because it is obvious that he is still in the affair, and is still sleeping with her or will do so sporadically when he gets the chance. This is still a full-blown affair and you must not be a fool to yourself and think that it is over.

dear zouzouni,

I have gone through several false recoveries. Believe me your H is still deep down in the A and has absolutely no intentions to break it. I have been living with my WH for 1.5 years always doubting my gut feeling that the A is not over. He got good at keeping it underground but you can feel it. My WH has never been physically abusive or even emotionally. He was just gone emotionally from our marriage and that was pretty hurtful for me. But as what I read from your posts - you live in a foreign country, you do not have any friends or support there and your WH is very physically and emotionally abusive. You are even afraid that "my children will be left without a mother" if you tell them of the A.


Your situation being in a foreign country and having financial troubles, no friends and support there and kids which you cannot take out of the country is not good. If you ask me the best option for you will be to leave and go back USA. Get financial help from relatives and friends and use the money to somehow get yourself and the kids out of the country. I know that legally you cannot do that without his approval and he will never approve, but you can always find some doors in the system..... Then you can start a new life and become the independent, happy person that you were. If your WH wakes up some day, he can follow you there.

If your husband is psychically abusive and has no care for the kids - he is not good to you or to them. You might have had some good time with him before, but that is gone. The reality is that he is wayward and physically abusive. There is just nothing you can do to change him. If I was in your shoes I would be searching for any possibility to get myself and my kids out and start a new life with them.

Yes. He's having an affair.


Number one, stop trying to educate him because it's pointless. It's like Iran loving Israel--it isn't happening so save your breath.

What would this "amicable split" entail?

WOW, so many replies overnight and I hadn't expected it. First let's talk about the physical, emotional abuse. The last time there was any kind of physical abuse was back in 2008. At that time, I enlisted my in-laws to help and my father in law told my H flat out if he ever lays a hand on me again, he will leave the house and the village and never be welcome here again. My father in law is a "no nonsense" kind of guy and my husband was mortified. My husband did get some counseling at the time and ever since, when I have seen him enraged, he has left the room or left the house. I have not been afraid of him since.

As for the emotional/psychological abuse, I have flatly refused to take it anymore. I am not going to be abused and cheated on. It has been 7 weeks since the A and there have been plenty of fights. Some of them really bad too. At the start, I told him the abuse is over and I am not taking it anymore. I told him I will stop him when I see it and if it continues we will go to war because I am not living like a frightened little girl anymore. Each time I recognized words of abuse I put my hand up and said "STOP, this is emotional abuse or this is psychological abuse." He stops. There have been times when he has started to say something and then stopped himself. I ask what were you going to say and he tells me it would have been mean and abusive so he is not saying it. This is a true effort. The fact that he admitted to being abusive about a week ago is HUGE.

As for leaving, I have started to put a little money away secretly. It is not much but I see that I can get away with about 50 euro each month. Made my first deposit at the beginning of June. This is the backup plan, just in case. I have made it clear to him that if I find out he is still in this A, I will take the kids and go to the city nearby and get an apartment. That is the best I can do for now. I found Greek Law books, translated, online and read on marriage law. The children can choose which parent they want to live with when they are 14 years old. This means I only have to be here for 2 more years if things get bad.

Yet, no matter what anyone here says, I cannot give up on my marriage. I am the kind of person that has to feel they gave 100% effort to make something work or to finish a project, even if it doesn't work out. My husband wants this marriage for whatever reason and I feel that it would be much better to live in our house in peace than to live nearby in strife. I have to try and as long as he is giving some kind of effort and not being abusive, I am fine with staying.

My children are happy for the first time in years. They see us getting along and they are getting much more attention from their father. He is making a genuine effort to be not only closer to them but to be a part of their lives in making decisions about them and helping them with things. They have started going to him instead of me for some things. I see a positive change in him with them and in them with him. If things go awry, I will have to tell them and we will move but for now, I want to let them get to know their father for the first time in their lives and have some fun with him.

As for the A, I have come to the conclusion based on his mood and his actions that either he has cut all ties and is in mourning or they have had to go so far underground that he is not getting what he needs from her. He has never experienced the loss of someone before. I have lost my entire family starting with my closest grandparent when I was 9 years old and the last was my uncle only 5 years ago. I grew up in a house with 8 people and only mom is left. I recognize mourning when I see it as I have lived through it so many times.

He may be a lost cause and I may be stupid but this is where we are right now. I have decided to implement the 180 in full force and started yesterday. I have never been emotionally or physically unavailable to him before. I changed one simple action yesterday and the results were amazing. I thought it would be difficult, I thought he might retaliate but once I realized that he holds the cards and the only thing I can control is my own life, I realized that I have nothing to lose but everything to gain with the 180. For the first time in 7 weeks, my head feels more clear, I have a plan, I have some self confidence and I feel strong.

If we split, I would move to the city nearby where I do have one friend. I would get an apartment and work from there. Amicable would be that he sees the children on the weekends and we do not communicate other than to set up times for him with the children and this would be done by text if possible.

Finally, sugarcane: the std test came back with a yeast infection. I have yet to see if it comes back when we are intimate. The Dr. said it could be from all the stress.

What is 180?

Is that the 180 love dare?

180 is a list of behaviors from Michelle Wiener Davis. I also tried implementing this before MB, but with no success. I would advice you to stick to MB plans from my personal experience. I was so lost wondering and trying different things to change my WH before MB, it was exhausting and nothing made him 'see'. The plans MB offers are clear, logical and tested by so many people and the results of either personal or marriage recovery are great. I also wanted to save my marriage at any cost. I am in plan B now for 3 months and feel really better. I have started living for myself and my kids and I am feeling good and proud with my achievements and myself. And when I am better my kids are also better.

Did you get SAA? If you haven't do it, it is a great book. I can tell you a place to order with free delivery if you are interested.

***EDIT***

I am told the 180 takes time but when you are dealing with such a weak minded person as my H... time will tell.

I work from home and finish at 7. Every evening after work I leave the home office and go into the house and do chores, usually where my husband is doing his thing. I tend to stay close and dote on him. Last night I was exhausted from everything, just everything. I finished work and went into the bedroom to take a nap. The kids were out and he was working on a project in the sitting room. He came into the bedroom (I am sure he was expecting to see tears). I looked at him as if he were crazy and asked what he wanted, said that I was resting for a bit. He said "nothing" and closed the door. Half an hour later he came in again, "are you ok" I said "yes" politely and he closed the door again. He let me sleep for an hour and came in again. I was in such a deep sleep I thought it was one of the children. Before I could open my eyes, he was trying to kiss me. I pulled back and looked at him. He said "I am sorry for fighting with you, let's please make up."

This is the man who does not have the word "sorry" in his vocabulary and he has NEVER in 15 years made an attempt at a makeup. Even when we have made up in the past, he has always made sure to make me see that I am to blame or partly to blame. Not this time.

I think the 180 will work very well for me because I am a huge giver. I have sacrificed everything for this man and my children. My children are pretty self sufficient and help me around the house. With them it is a give and take, the more I do for them, the more they try to find ways to show me that they appreciate me. My son took out the garbage and made his bed without asking today. My daughter washed the dishes and swept the floors...

As for my husband... he is the typical Greek man who expects his wife and any other woman around him to jump just because he thought of something he might want. This has stopped since DDay. I prepare the main meal of the day and everyone is on their own for anything else they want.

My husband has started making coffee for me on the weekends. He learned how I like my coffee for the first time in 15 years.

Now, I implement the 180 in full force and see how it turns out. If it doesn't work out, well... I am on my way to my own recovery anyway and have NOTHING to lose.

This 180 sounds non-MB.

Why won't you do MB? You are on Marriage Builders.??

Why not call the coaching center? Or Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com.

X 2. zz, I don't understand why you are posting here, but trying to implement other practices?

When I have seen other posters do this, it is usually because they realise that MB makes sense, but can be difficult to do.

The easier route is not always the better route.

Besides, we are such a great bunch

Please, for the sake of continuity, stick to one thread discussing your marriage.

The 180 does not work and will actually cause you personal harm. Women have nervous breakdowns and suffer post traumatic stress disorder from doing what you are doing. The "180" is what Dr Harley calls "Plan C" which is the most likely to lead to divorce.

I have no idea why you are on our forum if you don't want to use Marriage Builders, though? If you want to push a bad marriage program, why not go to their board?

Was there a question about how to implement the MARRIAGE BUILDERS program ?


When we find ourselves in a vicious cycle, we should take inventory of what we actually DO control in the situation.
When we try the same things over & over & over, and we "STILL" are not getting the desired results ..... Often it is because our efforts are focused on the other person, and not ourselves.


And this is my current easy-peasy advice.
Take inventory .... actually get a piece of paper out, draw a line down the center and on the left list things you cannot control. On the right list things you can control.

Next post, describe both sides of that list to us.

You cannot WORK the MB process if your efforts are going in the wrong direction.

After some heartfelt soul searching, a step back from everything and a good look at it all, I realize my WH is completely detached. He has no desire to communicate, to initiate sex, to be affectionate or anything else with me.

I asked him why and he says it is because I am still spying on him and searching. He says "search all you want" there is nothing to find. He tells me he can't deal with this anymore because I can't believe that the A is over and he is not talking to her anymore.

I am like a schoolgirl, getting all giddy waiting for him to come home, wanting him to be under my skin and I get nothing and suffer disappointment, depression and misery. I can't stop this cycle.

Anyone?
_________________________

P.S. He flatly refuses to talk about anything and yelled at me yesterday saying "never again"

We are barely speaking although he did walk in and kiss me hello. Commented positively on my drastic hairstyle change today...

So what are you going to do to break the cycle?

Call the coaching center?

Email Dr. Harley?
Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com.

Is he spying on you? There might be a keylogger on your PC or phone. Does he have an admin account on the PC you use?

Have an excellent program to detect any spyware/keyloggers. Found that there were some exclusions, took them off the list and running the scan now.

Will have to make a list of what I can and cannot control and will post.

He has been better the last few days - the post from yesterday was 2-3 days old. He is not talking about anything and if I bring up anything he gets defensive and mad. He has always been this way about things that embarass/hurt/shame him.

I am changing things about myself to make myself feel better. The haircut is awesome and I love the "New" me. I have also started wearing skirts (something I only did for weddings in the past). With my new and improved figure I am going for short skirts and short shorts. Getting myself all pretty just to feel better about myself. I do feel better. And he is noticing, big time. I am also pulling back a little from him but making sure he knows that I love him and want him. This seems to be working and takes little or no effort.

He reciprocates but never initiates. He told me yesterday that he is afraid to love me. This is either because he is afraid of the rejection we had toward each other in the past or afraid that I will snap and come to my senses about all that he has done and leave him.

I often seem him as such an insecure little child who doesn't know which way is up. His being macho is for his own sake I think.

Great Plan A.

Just continue to be Mrs James Bond and keep up your carrot and stick of Plan A.

People who are doing wrong are usually defensive.

What are his top 5 EN?

Re-posted for emphasis. How long have you been in Plan A? How long will it take you to prepare for Plan B? I think you are near to that point where yon't be able to handle (physically and mentally) anymore. Start getting your legal ducks in a row

~RQ

"What are his top 5 EN?" What is an EN?

now I got it.. Emotional Needs. Yes, we did this and it was almost scary that our lists were exactly the same! The top 5 are:
1 family
2 communicaiton
3 affection
4 recreation
5 sex

To rocketqueen:

the second Dday was on the 14th of May. I just starting to implement plan A as I was in such shock after the first time and then I barely got my head on straight and caught them again! It has taken some time just to function normally and I have started to implement the plan for about a week now.

OK. I have faith in that you will know the right time for Plan B. But a lot of what you have said about his defensiveness, lack of communication, lying and wanted you to just "drop it" sounds like he is not ready for recovery and will only hurt you further (mentally). Keep that in mind and take care of yourself!

Great advice, for EVERYONE!

I am going through what feels like stages of grief. I experienced this when I lost the person closest to me, many years ago. During the past month, I was going between depression and anxiety (sometimes both) now my thoughts are mostly angry, followed by depression or sadness. It is really strange too as I am not angry on the outside. I am not picking things out on my H, my children or anyone else (thankfully) but I am having all of these angry thoughts.

I am really mad that my H had an A. I think about it and well... to heck with them because what they had for 6 months was a fantasy filled with stupidity that ended up destroying the lives of 8 people and hurting numerous others. All because they were selfish. Well if that is what my H wants... let him have it. Stupid idiots having an online A and they think it was love because they got their bodies together one night. PATHETIC! I am so happy that I am so much stronger, more loyal and better than them because I would NEVER do what they did, even before I knew how much it hurts and destroys. I feel like my H let the devil into our lives and he is still holding on to a piece of that evil in his heart. Makes me so mad!

What my H and I have shared for 15 years is 1000 times stronger and real. When we met it was face to face and touch to touch. We had a real start to a real relationship that turned into a marriage and god blessed us with twins! What did they have? Secrets, lies, songs, betrayal, evil! IDIOTS!

My H and I have made some progress and the anger is actually empowering me. After doing a search in my H's computer (have to have a look every now and then to make sure), I see that he is downloading songs pertaining to him being angry over the A too. Songs in Greek like "I'm throwing you away" "what we had was not real." "I am not bad like you" This tells me that once again we are feeling the same emotions and going through this process together.

It is so hard. I know you all know just how hard it is. Is anyone else angry?

Does anyone else feel a strange connection to their WS? It is like we are doing ok and I feel a new connection with him that feels GREAT. Yet, I often feel awkward around him. Maybe because he refuses to speak about anything that has anything to do with this and I am literally 44 days from the last DDay. ???

It is all so confusing, fueled with so many emotions and it feels like time is taking forever. I do however think he is getting over the pining aspect of his A which is good but I am still having trouble trusting and forgiveness is so far away that I can't even begin to consider it. Am I normal?

I have not been able to find out the OW's last name and expose her to her H. I have searched relentlessly, I have paid for services to find her but she has been very coy and has not even a photograph online let alone her last name.

I did however look up her email address and found that she has an account on facebook under the name of a greek goddess. She does not reveal her friends or much information at all but I can go through her photos and comments to pull up about 20-30 people that are her friends.

I have been thinking of making a bogus facebook account and sending a message to everyone I can find that is related to her on FB and let them know what she did. Surely someone in there must be friends with her husband.

It makes me so mad that she got off scott free and is free to do whatever she pleases with no consequences. From what she is posting and her happy little notes it is as if she has no remorse at all and she spends all of her time on the computer pining over MY H! Is it fair that my H and I are going through hell and she is obviously living with her guilt very well? She is also married with 2 children!

My H and I are doing well and making progress. For the first time in years I can honestly say that I love him and I believe that he truly loves me. Yet, I am scared out of my mind that she will try to contact him and throw us back to the start again. It has been an extremely difficult climb since the last time he spoke to her. He has been depressed and now he is angry at her and himself. This is tremendous progress over the pining he was doing.

I am afraid this will open a can of worms and the reasons I have for wanting to do this seem vengeful. Yet I think it might help to know that she is on a leash. I don't know...

I need a push in either direction. You guys are my only support system as my friends have completely abandoned me (even the 2 that have been through this!). So I await your kind advice and thoughts on this.

If you use the templates from the exposure thread it will not come across as vengeful.

I would not make a bogus account. I would send them from your own facebook.

Add that you're trying to get a hold of her husband to inform him of his WW's betrayl and her affair with your WH.

We are here for you and you will be doing the best thing for your M.

I'm sure out of those 20-30 people someone will know her BH or at least give you direction on how to get a hold of him.

You have read the exposure 101 thread we posted to you, correct?

The abuse started. I knew my husband was dealing with something for 2 days because he became very quiet and started brooding. I tried to ask him what was wrong 2 nights ago but he shot me down saying he didn't want to talk about anything. I left it alone.

The next day the same thing. I started to think that he was in contact with his AP again and needed to know what was going on. He became very defensive and provoked an argument so I shut up and left it alone.

Last night I had to know what was going on. I told him that I realized that I am doing all the giving and he is doing all the taking. I try to meet his needs constantly, I try to show him admiration and respect. I give affection, space, consideration... I am trying to communicate and I told him I could tell that something was going on and he was not telling me.

He blew up. Furious that we have to "talk about this again!" It has been about 45 days since DDay. I told him to take it like a man and just tell me what is going on. I told him I can feel that he is keeping something from me and to just spill it because I am so broken that nothing can hurt me now. I am titanium.

He started psychologically abusing me. Telling me that he never trusted me since we were dating and he is sure I was cheating on him then and throughout our marriage. This is INSANE! I lived with him while we were dating and he has been so controlling, jealous and manipulative for the last 10 years that I have had weeks at a time where I never even left the house. When I do leave, it is to go to the bank or the supermarket only. And he calls me to check on me. I ALWAYS take the children with me and even if I wanted to cheat, I couldn't!

When the berating started, I told him I was not taking it and decided the best course of action would be to remove myself from the situation. It was midnight and I thought I would go sit on the balcony for a little while to cool off and let him cool off. He chased me to the door, pulled me away from it, threw me down on the floor and locked the door. I got up and ran for the other door, frightened to be in the house with him and got outside. He chased me until I reached the garden gate. I held on to the gate for dear life while he threatened to kill me, to wake the children, to beat me off the gate, etc. He pulled at me, pushed me, and eventually dragged me into the house, locked the door and threw me on the bed. He told me that I had to leave, that I would never see my children again, that we are getting a divorce, that the problems in our marriage, the affair and everything wrong in the world is my fault. I was called worthless, whore, idiot, incompetent, a bad mother, a bad wife, a bad houskeeper, a bad cook. I was called crazy and a waste of life.

I started to get some clothing out to leave. To leave at that moment. I have one friend here and hoped she would be willing to pick me up at that hour and take me to the police station. I realized that I had to leave the kids for now but I would do whatever I had to. He threw my clothes all over the room and refused to let me leave. Told me after that he could never touch me sexually again. WHAT!?? As if I wanted...

I hesitantly lie down next to him and eventually prayed myself to sleep.

This morning I woke up trembling. I realized he was still home and I panicked. I pretended I was still sleeping and prayed that he would not come into the room. He left.

I have bruises up and down both of my arms. I am stranded in a village and can't get to a police station or anywhere. I called my friend this morning and she promised that if I want to leave, she will take me and her kids into her house until I can get on my feet.

I know if I leave, I can never come back. I never want to see his face again. I have been abused like this for years but it stopped for the last 4 years and I thought things were getting better because the cycle never stopped for more than a year previously. The abuse is subtle, not punching, kicking or doing any serious damage. Yet he wants control and when I do not submit, he will choke, pull, push and shove until he gets his way.

I am SO AFRAID. I AM SO AFRAID. I am trapped, I think if I leave he will hurt my friends who help me. I am afraid he will try to get at the kids. I am afraid he will try to hurt me even more. He will be home from work in 3 hours and I am freaking out. I can't run, I can't hide. I have NO money.

Someone tell me that this is going to be ok until I can do something to get out. I am alone here in Greece and everyone at home has forsaken me. My mother is the only person that can help emotionally but not financially. Yet she is old and not well and telling her this is only going to make her worse as she is so stressed and frustrated already.

In the end, it turns out that my husband was brooding over the fact that he was served a lawsuit by my ex-sister in law because when she and her brother came to collect her posessions from the family house, my husband beat the hell out of her brother. He kept this from me. WHY?

zz, of course I am not going to tell you that this is going to be OK until you can get out. I doubt that anybody here will tell you that. We all knew that his abuse had not magically gone away and that it would reappear.

I don't know what you can do from your position in a remote part of Greece, but you must do something. You must get away. I cannot believe that the Greek authorities will let a man attack his wife like this and not help her, or let her lose the children.

You have bruises. They must be verified while they can still be seen. Get to a doctor and a police station, with the children. Don't leave your children behind.

I take it you still haven't told them about his affair because you don't want to break their hearts?

How has appeasing your H worked for you so far?

Tell your kids, and get out of there, zz.

Good grief,zz: Greece is a signatory to the European Convention on Human Rights. You do have civil rights in that country regardless of your national status, and these include the rights to life, liberty and personal security!

I once joked about your living in Borat-land, but you do not actually live there. You live in a civilised country that gives you human rights. Get out of danger and throw your self on the authorities. They will protect you and the children.

It will not be ok until you can muster up the strength to remove youself AND your children from this situation. You need to get this documented NOW. AS SC said, go now and have this done while they can be seen.

He already has a pattern of physical abuse as shown through the law suit. Time to get moving on this.

It is very hard to get away from the emotional and physical violence as you feel in a way that you think deserve it. This is what the abuser does to get you to stay and the abuse continues. THIS IS NOT NORMAL AND IT IS NOT OK. GET OUT.

You can do this, you really can. You have more strength than you realize but you must act now. Get your kids and LEAVE NOW.

Ditto.
Please get out and go to your friends and then to the cops. TODAY!!

Please tell us you did this!?

Have you left yet with your children? I am very concerned for your safety and that of your children.

Likely since his physical assault on you.....he has calmed down, doing the im sorry it will never happen again, etc. Until the next time and it will happen again.

Please update.

Get your friend and go to the authorities together.

please update us ASAP when you are safe.

Dont fall for his upcoming nice act, which will be his follow up to the abuse stage.

Please update us. Concerned about your safety and that of you children.

Has anyone heard from zouzouni?