Hi, I've been lurking here for awhile. Many sad stories, some I can relate to. I guess affairs are more common than I realized.

I work in a team of 6, I've been with the team about a year and a half, have known some of them longer than that, severals years with a couple of them, much more casually. Here's our basic demographics (4 men, 2 women):

M1 - 49, D
M2 - 50, M 30 years
M3 - 49, M 10 years (this is me, my 1st, her 3rd)
M4 - 40, D
W1 - 49, M 29 years
W2 - 34, D

We're a pretty open group, I was amazed immediately when I joined how openly this group is about personal lives. It's kind of refreshing, actually. Anyway, M4 & W2 are D because of infidelity (well, and other issues we all run into in our M's). BTW, I didn't say so above, but none of these people are M'd to each other, nor are they dating, although M4 & W2 are very close friends, attended D recovery classes together.

Anyway, to the point of my post: Last week, W1 just casually mentioned during one discussion that at age 24, she'd had a hysterectomy because of cervical cancer. Me and my big mouth, I reacted with "Wow, how did THAT happen?" Kind of a dumb thing to say, since I have a female friend who had been diagnosed with the same thing several years ago -- I learned a lot about it, then. Turns out that cervical cancer is pretty much caused ONLY by exposure to HPV (an STD). W1 and her H were HS sweethearts, M'd early and have two grown kids. She's never expressed any concern about the fidelity of her H, nor given any signs that she's ever had any extra-M SF. In fact, all the people in this group are either Catholic or Evangelical Christian and have expressed sympathy for what M4 & W2 went through in their process of discovering their WS's activities.

Here's my dilemma: Should I share what I know about cervical cancer & HPV's role? I don't know if W1 or her H had any other SF partners prior to M (or after!), but having M'd so young and having been HS sweethearts, I'm guessing that they probably didn't (and I'm not judging!). She seems happy and comfortable in her M. If I tell her, it may be the catalyst for breaking up their M. OTOH, I'd want to know if someone knew my W was or had cheated.

Is this just none of my big, fat business and I should just forget about it? I'm conflicted between thinking that and not wanting to possibly ruin her M & life, to thinking her H has already done that and she just doesn't know (and I'd want to know). I realize that I may get a diversity of opinions, and that's fine. I'm leaning toward not saying anything, but am interested to see points of view that I may not have considered.

I'd let this one go.
She is now 49 years old.
She probably knows the score by now.

Who knows, maybe she was raped?
Don't go there.

Before I retired, I did 4-6 paps a day, 4-5 days a week, for nearly 30 years.
Trust me, there are private conversations during those intimate examinations that equal or better what is uttered in a confessional.

JThom

Welcome to MARRIAGE BUILDERS

Just for fun .... Do you know the long-ago "back story" about the role Catholic nuns played in the eventual discovery about HPV as the root cause of cervical cancer?

Chances are just as good that she got HPV before she married...and from other partners....if she wasn't a virgin when she married.

I wouldn't say anything...as Pepperband said, she probably already knows all about HPV...how you get it and the cervical cancer link.

Hmmm, was hoping for more opinions, but it sounds like the two I got are in the direction I was leaning anyway.

Two things: 1) Pepperband, I neglected to say that when I asked "How did THAT happen" (the cervical CA), she replied "I don't know". Now, I've been M'd long enough to know that, when a woman says "I don't know" it doesn't necessarily mean she doesn't know. Often it means "I don't know [that I want to tell you]!" I think where I was coming from in considering telling her was that I was believing that she really didn't know. It was 25 years ago, and I don't think the HPV link was firmly established like it was, say, 5-10 years ago when my friend was diagnosed. But since you're in the profession, I'll take your word for it if you say she probably does know.

2) Trix, I disagree that "chances are good that she got HPV before she married". Every woman I know personally who contracted HPV before trying to get pregnant has been unable to get pregnant. This gal married @ 19 and had 2 kids before the hysterectomy @ 24. She married her HS sweetheart. But I guess it's possible. I'm just saying I don't think it's likely. It's more likely that she or her H strayed some time into the M (maybe he did when she was pregnant -- I hear that's very common).

I'd still be interested in hearing if anyone thinks that I SHOULD say something, but I'm becoming more disinclined.

Thanks for the replies!

Oh, and Pepperband, thank you for the welcome and the backstory on the Nuns. I hadn't heard that before, but it seems very reasonable.

Fun detour.
Useless information. But, so what?
*shrugs*

JThom .... be careful where you "stick your nose" ... Just a word to the wise.
You may end up unintentionally looking like a donkey's backside.

JThom, looking at the thread title, I came on here assuming you had knowledge of an A, and I was going to urge you to speak up.

But..... Don't!

You have knowledge of how the condition is caused, but so does her doctor. So does she by the way.

If someone gets an illness, they find out what may have caused it. This is a 50 year old woman. There's no way she needs to be spoonfed info about her own medical condition.

If you know about it because A FRIEND had the condition....obviously someone with the actual condition is going to be MORE informed.

And it isn't indicative of an A. Anything could have happened. Rape, Hs premarital sex, her premarital sex, Hs adultery (that she forgave) her own adultery.

Trust me she knows what caused the condition and how she got it. There's no way she wouldn't have been told on diagnosis. No way she wouldn't have researched it herself.

But I like your willingness to expose an A!

The thing that is sticking out to me here is not this woman's cervical cancer and the hows and why's of getting it, but rather that you are involved in this:

"We're a pretty open group, I was amazed immediately when I joined how openly this group is about personal lives. It's kind of refreshing, actually."

Having men and women who not only work closely together but are a 'tight group' sharing personal information about themselves is right at the top of the slippery slope to adultery. Since many of you are married (and not to each other) you really need to rethink how damaging this dynamic can be.

It is your responsibility to make sure NO other woman than your wife fills your needs, including the need for IC. And it sounds like these women do. And I am sure there are many wayward Catholics on this site that can tell you that due to their poor boundaries they cheated, and being Catholic did not stop them.

That's pretty unnerving that you have such personal conversations with female coworkers. That is sure not considered professional behavior where I work.

indiegirl, thank you for the perspective. You're right, I don't know of an A, don't know W1's H, never met him (although other team members have, they all seem to like him).

My friend that had the condition told me that the Dr's could tell her pretty closely when she was exposed by the growth pattern. Turned out, her H had been unfaithful for most of their 12-yr M. He D'd her to keep his hoochie girl...

unwritten: That's an interesting perspective as well. I've never been involved in a group that knew each other's business quite like this. My involvement in the conversations has never been 1-on-1 except with M4 (which I would consider appropriate), but it seems like anything goes in the group discussions. I don't know how much is venting on their part, horsing around, or what, but especially M4 & W2 give each other a lot of "razz"...

JThom,

Is your DW ok that you have these kind of conversations with women at work?

MelodyLane: I think I was kind of unnerved a bit about it at first. Amazing what you can get used to. I'm probably the least involved (and usually last to jump into these group discussions).

I was actually quite surprised that W1 just "dropped" the info about her hysterectomy into the middle of a conversation I was having with M4.

Not professional? You'd probably find some who agree. Different strokes, I guess...

Honestly, I can't imagine what would be professional about such a conversation. Having personal conversations with opposite sex coworkers is how affairs begin.

BrainHurts: Yeah, DW is aware of the dynamic and the conversations, and this one in particular. You make it sound like these gals are pulling me aside and telling me stuff individually. It's not, it's during group discussions. I don't know how "intimate" I'd call the conversation. What many might consider intimate or private topics are often brought up. Sometimes in very humorous ways.

As for telling her, btw, I should probably go ahead and state that, with the advice so far being in the direction I was leaning anyway, I will not be telling her. You're right, she's 50, probably does (or should) know anyway, no need to poke my nose in (although I would still want to know if something like that were known about my W. But people usually don't want to get involved).

MelodyLane: I guess I'll have to keep my guard up, then. No 1-on-1's with the women, got it...

You could write a whole book with the stories of BS's on here whose WS cheated with a coworker. I could fill a couple pages myself.

It doesn't start like this. "Hey you have a nice rack." "Really, you have a great package. Wanna go to my car for lunch and get it on?"

It starts as a group lunch. As 'friendships.' It starts with general conversation that is not work related, and becomes ever increasingly more personal. She tells you she is having problems in her marriage, you relate with your own problems. Soon, you are getting a little flirty. Meanwhile, at home you are all of a sudden acutely aware that your spouse does NOT meet your needs. She's not the great wife you once thought, turns out! In fact, she's not really that good a wife at all. I wonder if my 'friend' is a good wife, I wonder if she better meets her H's needs...

And so on, and so forth. You have now entered...the fog.

As a married man, with proper boundaries, you need to protect yourself from this by not having any kind of personal relationship with female coworkers. If you are asked to have dinner or drinks after work, go golfing on the weekend, or whatever with this group, you should say no. Unless you invite your spouse and include her in the interactions.

BTW, that's not MY perspective. That is Dr Harley, founder of Marriage Builders perspective, after many years of working with marriages that have been ripped apart by affairs that started with coworkers.

I am sure if you are interested someone could find links to Dr Harley articles that describe this in his own words. I'm not really very good at the links.

But just from my short time here on the forums, I am very aware of the number of WS's that are in or were formerly in affairs with their coworkers.

unwritten: I hear ya. Yeah, they have tried to get the group together for drinks after work, but us M'd ones never go. My W said I could, though, and I told her only if she goes with.

The group does have birthday lunches, though, and spouses are invited (though I have only seen M4's GF attend once, no other spouses have ever come).

I like your counterexample, it kind of made me chuckle...

I speak from personal experience....and I had 3 kids after my diagnosis. It was recommended that I have a hysterectomy too but I chose not to follow that recommendation. I was 22 or 23 at the time. I hope she got other opinions before she had that done at 24.

I agree that it would be an inappropriate conversation to have with your co-worker.

RAISES HAND.

My WH began his affair with a co-worker. I too was privy to his conversations(albeit in a limited way), and that he had this "friend" at work. It also wasn't his first "friend" at work. And the rest, as they say, is history.

just chiming in with another vote: NO!

i too popped in thinking you were going to expose an a with a hearty "yes."

but in this case? no, no, no. not your business. and having that kind of discussion with a woman not your wife is a bad idea anyhow.

Here's a letter from Dr. H where the affair started with a co-worker. Tell us what you think.

What To Do With An Unfaithful Wife #3

Thank you all for your responses, I do appreciate it.

I'm not entirely convinced that she necessary knows the connection between cervical CA and HPV because this happened 25 years ago. To my friend it happened 5-10 years ago (I don't recall exactly), so her healthcare professionals definitely knew what caused it and roughly when. But I will defer to Pepperband's experience as a healthcare worker as to what was known about it back then.

In any case, I am entirely convinced that it's not my place to say anything about it and that it really isn't any of my business, hence the thread name. I have to continue working with her and involving myself in that capacity could make that uncomfortable for both of us, regardless of whether she knows.

Thanks again for the perspectives...

Pepperband, I am curious to know -- of the cases you saw, about what percentage of M'd W having HPV knew exactly where they got it from, and it wasn't their H's vs. those who got it from their H's and had no idea how they or their H's got it?

JThom,

One of the lesser known dangers of HPV infections is that they can also cause oral, penile and anal cancers. So a person who engaged in a variety of activities will have to monitor themselves for a good 20-30 years. So there is case to inform someone of this risk, my BIL who likes getting oral from prostitutes refused to believe this.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health...oral-sex-found-in-1-in-10-men/52795342/1

God Bless
Gamma

Gamma, yes, I have heard that men who give oral to women infected with HPV run a high risk of throat cancer and that many young men are presenting with this condition these days. Thank you for the link!

Only women with a sexual history of exactly ONE partner.
Same can be said of men who contract HPV. If their sexual history is one partner, the source is known.



A married woman who has current or had other sexual partners cannot ever be certain she contracted HPV from her H or her other (current or previous) sexual partners.



The thing is, people LIE about their past sexual histories.
Women get raped or molested and sometimes hide the truth for decades.
People lie about affairs.


I wasted little time with patients trying to figure out "who" is/was the guilty person. That is a goal that was often not aligned with giving the best most caring medical attention.

I think you might be wasting YOUR time as well.

Pepperband, you may be right. Because you made reference to "confessionals", I guess what I was curious about is how many newly-WW's with only one extramarital PA who contracted HPV and did know they got it from their OM have you run across? Merely curiosity.

You're quite right about the uncertainty which accompanies multiples and priors...

I am amazed at the amount of time and concern you are pouring into thinking about a conversation that she should never have had with you.

Dont trust people who do things that are inappropriate. Leave these people to their own devices. I dont care how innocent they act. When people behave this oddly there is cause for concern.

I think this is gallant weakness of yours JThom, that the wrong woman could use against you at some point in the future. Caring too much about the concerns of women you work with is a VERY BAD IDEA. Be the knight in shining armour for the lady at home

Well let's see. Pepperband said: "Only women with a sexual history of exactly ONE partner." So, the answer to this question would be a ZERO. Unless you count unconsummated marriages, I guess.

Another curious statistic: how many men have I found with a deep fascination about HPV and women who have it? Exactly one.

JThom, has your wife seen this thread?

If you were to say to her: "Do you ENTHUSIASTICALLY support me investing so much time and energy on finding out more about this topic.."

What would she say? Surely she would want your powers of analysis and concern directed more towards her issues in life?

indiegirl wrote:

Admittedly, no, no and, sadly, no.

markos, touche` (although not necessarily correct, point taken)

Please expand upon this statement.

This is your job. Not other people's medical conditions.

If I am reading you correctly, your wife is in withdrawal. She doesn't want you to meet her emotional needs, give her your attention?

One thing I do like about this thread is all this talk about STDs.

I know there is a split amongst posters here about advising those in Plan A to meet the SF need like a rockstar, I am and have always been on the side of ABSOLUTELY DO NOT HAVE SF with someone who is possibly engaging in sexual relationships elsewhere.

HPV is one of my main reasons for that, it is the number one spread STD and has been for many, many years. It can spread through genital contact, not JUST through intercourse, which puts a LOT of people and activities at risk. And it can have grave consequences to ones health, long term.

Everyone knows what HIV is but sadly, most people don't even know what HPV is.

I hate to see this topic continually brushed under the rug just to promote doing a good Plan A.

Reading some of these comments, they're kind of funny, actually. You'd think I was preparing some kind of PhD thesis on the topic, the way some of you are describing it. I was merely curious about a comment Pepperband made about "confessionals" (like, how many women messing around confide in their healthcare workers?).

How many posts have I made? Not a significant investment of time, really. Some time, yes, but not really that much...

markos/indiegirl, yes we go through the withdrawal/conflict/intimacy cycle on a regular basis. Such is life with a borderline. And she definitely doesn't want me "analyzing" her issues...

The point about Knight in Shining Armor is well taken, I have had to confront that issue in myself on previous occasions. Still working on it!

Analyzing her issues, no, but does she want you meeting her emotional needs?

markos, as I said, on a cycle. Did you mean yesterday, this morning, tomorrow? The answer changes...

The point is you've taken the time to show caring about the female co-workers marriage. That is a conversation that should have been shrugged off with a silent 'weirdo' comment about five minutes later.

You were told a few days ago to drop it, because she was being inappropriate, and have still been querying it today. That is a lot of time!

Marriages take 15 hours a week UA time to maintain. Plus 15 hours family time where there is children. That doenst leave a lot of time to waste on female co-workers.

Actually NO time should be spent in that direction.....

I would just stop it.

indiegirl, so snippy!

I take it you mean my advice here:



It is snippy, yes. That's because it is a snip. You say you have recognised this problem, therefore you should have stopped it.

Where's the confusion?

I have no idea what 'working on' means. 'Working on' is usually a euphemism for 'I dont wanna stop/I havent come across a compelling enough reason for me to stop'.

It takes more energy, time and justification to keep on being a KISA to co-workers than it is to stop.

Why dont you plough these efforts into your own marriage?

If you are going through the phases of SoM with your wife then you need these principles for YOUR marriage.

You are in a fantastic place to make your marriage amazing! And you dont even go into in-depth detail about what the issues are when asked. Your co-worker's problem however was described in GREAT detail.

Your time, care and concern could be much better spent on YOU and your DW.

How about it?

indiegirl, by snippy, I meant "you were told to...", to which my reply is "really, mom? Do I have to?"

The KISA syndrome is more one of reaction than planned action. The reaction is what I'm working on. Keeping on (or not) is a decision. I'm not being KISA to coworker. I agreed it wasn't my place, and I'm not going there...

indiegirl, if I were to go into detail on the issues in my M, it would be in a separate topic. The detail I went into in this topic directly addressed the question I was dealing with. All the feedback (even the snippy! ;-) was greatly appreciated in dealing with that one question.

I have read Dr. Harley's books (well, not SAA, but HNHN & LB) and most of the articles on this site with great interest and agree that there are many great principles that can be applied to make my M great. There are some things I don't necessary see the value in, and even more my W doesn't see (most disturbingly, she has expressed strong disagreement with PORH!).

I don't think I've read your whole story, but the summary in your signature seems to sum it up. I'm sorry you've had to deal with that. Maybe that is part of what's behind the "snippiness"? I can understand that...

Yes that was obvious. And yeah you do.



You are responsible for your reactions.



But 'working on' something is just another way of NOT STOPPING. just stopping with this Coworker is not enough. You must have good boundaries and be responsible with all women now and in the future.



Oh I am very happy thanks to MB. Because I have good boundaries and do not 'react' when vultures seeking to take advantage of my betrayal try to make me 'react'.

My thread can outline my happiness in using MB principles if you wish to read it. But you are right in that I have zero tolerance for poor boundaries with the opposite sex.

Remember my post does not contain MY opinion or MY advice, it is Dr Harleys advice. I know you think you are being a good friend and coworker but Dr H says taking such an interest in a member of the opposite sex is to be avoided at all costs.

If you think anyone is posting personal philosophies rather than Dr H's advice click 'notify' and ask the mods to remove the post immediately.

The same goes for personal attacks and anything against the TOS.

Great! Lets do that

Hmmm, but wouldn't discussing my M (a very personal topic) with women (i.e. you) on this site constitute poor boundaries?

Request male responses if you like, we have many great MB husbands on the site.

Anonymity is guaranteed though, so there is no inappropriate direct one-on-one or private contact away from the boards.

The personal messaging function is disabled for that very reason.

But I like your thinking in spotting that danger.

Aside from what others have said, you are leaving yourself vulnerable to being a victim of and/or being accused of sexual harassment within a workplace.

In the interests of RH, show your wife this thread. Be the lighthouse for your spouse and set a good example.

We women can speak to her if she is inclined to post.

And I was wondering if their EMPLOYER is aware of how much of his time they're using in these non-work activities?

I don't see where indie was being 'snippy'. You said you were 'working' on eliminating an undesirable behavior. Her answer was succinct and straight to the point. If you want to stop behaving a certain way, stop behaving that way. Just stop. Nothing snippy about it - it's just common sense.

There are no one-on-one situations here and there are no posts that are hidden. All posts are available to be viewed and commented on by either gender.

PM's are disabled so no personal interaction can occur between members of the opposite sex. Email addresses are not permitted to be displayed so no member can inadvertently expose themselves to the possibility of unwanted attention. It's set up that way so posters can get the most help in a safe atmosphere.

Have you read any of the articles on this site? Talking in a forum such as this is a healthy example of good boundaries, not poor ones. An example of poor boundaries is talking to a co-worker of the opposite sex about personal marital issues. See the difference?

"working on" is code for "doing nothing."

One pretty good male has posted to you several times, in fact.

Reply to suggestion about W reading this thread. I quote: "You're still reading THAT??!?" and "No, I don't have the time or interest to read any threads on there."

Also, maritalbliss posted questions without having read the thread herself wherein are the answers to those questions.

Employer knows people have personal conversations in the workplace, doesn't bother himself with content. It's not like we talk about this stuff all day, we have work to do. It gets done. Employer happy.

Have a nice evening...

t/j: Darn it! My plan for "working on the gym schedule" is NOT working! Code has been compromised. end t/J.

This does not pass the *sniff test*

What ev. You don't know me or my W. When I started reading HNHN years ago (SHE gave it to me when we got M'd!), she read part of it with me, decided it was "male chauvanistic" and lost interest.

I've been working on trying to be a better H, meet her EN's (I guess since "working on" means "doing nothing" to you all, that doesn't mean anything to you) while her POV is that everything is "just fine". We've had our ups and downs, mostly ups (including now). I can't say that I've adopted MB principles with the religious fervor many in this forum have, but I see them as mostly true and certainly useful. The Love Bank is just a concept, a map into the reality of how American (or perhaps Western) M's work, but doesn't necessarily apply to all cultures, IMHO.

This thread has wandered far from my original question, though, which I feel was answered sufficiently to help me make the decision I did to butt out, so I don't see the need for me to continue it. If I feel the need to post about my own M, I'll start a new thread in the apropriate topic area. Meantime, peace y'all...