Hi,
I used to be on these boards years ago for myself. Now I could use some information regarding my 22y/o daughter's situation. I found out recently that she's involved with a 40 y/o married man. She is not the first person he's had an affair with behind his wife's back. I found out today they are not using condoms and my daughter has a vaginal infection.

He still lives with his wife, uses her phone, drives her car, has not filed legal papers for separation. However, he and my daughter are talking marriage.

Typically, they have both lied to my face about everything.

Serial cheaters cannot be trusted. She is so deep in the fog I am afraid for her. I'm also concerned for his wife's health and safety. She has a right to know what her husband is doing.

I'd appreciate any guidance you can give.

So did you confront your Daughter about her lies? His wife needs to be told. Are you going to tell his wife? Does your daughter believe this liar?

Please tell me you already marched over to this poor unknowing BW and told her?

I mean you have the proof of her lies and him using her phone and him giving her and infection, correct?

I recently discovered that my hubby was (and probably still is) in a close relationship with a 22 year old woman. I wrote to her mother and asked for information. I'm still waiting for a response to my last inquiry. I need to know the entire truth. Please, please, do should not support this affair in any manner whatsoever. Tell the wife (betrayed spouse) what she needs to know so she can protect herself! Please!

I've been seriously tempted to contact BW. I thought I would come here before I proceeded. Sending a message to her now. It's about getting someone out of trouble who's already in trouble.

Why won't your daughter tell her?

Is she seriously thinking about staying with this joker?

Please make sure you offer her all the proof you have to her.

I just sent BW a message with what I know and how I know it. We'll see what happens.

When the person having the affair complains about "invasion of privacy", what's the best way to respond to them?

I would respond that he is invading YOUR family, hurting your family and you will not make it easy for him. You will dedicate yourself to making his life very difficult because he hurt your daughter.

I would tell him no one in your family will ever accept him and the truth of his past, the A and his sketchy sexual health will be fully known by everyone.

As for it being 'invasion of privacy' honourable men do not keep other women 'private' from their wife.

Well done you!!! You're doing very well. This guy should be easy to run off..

Is your daughter at all dependent on you? Does she support herself?

Do you have the support of her mother? You two still married?

Well done, friend.

Privacy? Well he threw that out the window when he gave your daughter an infection and you had to step up and take care of your family.

Does your DD22 depend on you financially at all?

I'm not worried so much about his privacy but my daughter's.

Our relationship has much improved over the 1.5 years. However before that, we had no contact for 5 years due to parental alienation by her father. 8 months ago her father kicked her out of his life, her home and her relationship with her siblings. I've been trying to help her recover and get her on her own two feet. Alienation destroys trust. Our current trust is still shaky at best without this affair happening. We are both very emotionally & psychologically fragile. All I know is that secrets and lies are not the basis to a solid relationship (mother/daughter as well).

Of course D believes all his lies. She feels sorry for him. He "deserves better".

He's only been married 5 years.

I told D about the 2% success of relationships based upon affairs. She's ready for the challenge. It hurts to see how far gone in la-la-land she is.

Tell her you're her mother and you love and care for her and will not enable her. If she was doing drugs and you found out would she expect you to "respect her privacy?"

You tell her a true parent who loves her children doesn't allow enabling of such a despicable act. I would also tell her how disappointed I am in her for helping to destroy a family.

Has she read any of the destroyed stories on here?

Please have her read this.
What you will get if you marry your affair partner

Ironically, I did tell her about MB and Dr. Harley's book about emotional needs. She hasn't read any posts here. I've told her she can the privilege of privacy when she tells me the truth. As long as she's lying to me, I have the right to find out the truth for myself.

Thanks Brainhurts. I'll give it to her.

fyi...no children involved (Thank G*d)

Good. Curious. How did you find out?

Found out through social media by accident "lied to my mom". Piqued my curiosity. Quietly monitoring her behaviour and correspondence ever since. Learned enough here on the boards before to know the signs of an affair (always wears a micro mini when she meets him, spends hours on the phone all night with him, etc). She confirmed the A by complaining that BW read in her diary (which she left in their house) the part when they had sex the first time as an "invasion of privacy". I told her BW as his wife has a right to know what's going on with her H if it affects their relationship.

That's what she means by privacy.'Let me lie to you'. I would respond each and every time to the privacy noinsense 'I won't let you lie to me any more' or and YOU are interfering in the privacy of another womans marriage.

It is none of her business what kind of marriage they have.

Did her father cheat on you? He sounds wayward. Whenever she demonises BW I would say 'no one deserves the kind of pain your father put us through. She is in a lot of pain'.

Then promise her she will lose all your support if she pursues her adultery.

Her personality will be entirely lost unless she gets tough love to battle this affair addiction.

Is she a friend of theirs staying over? Or were they having their A under the BWs roof?

Bit of an invasion of her LIFE to have an affair at all but especially to do such a thing in this womans hone if so.

She's already thinking about moving out. To where exactly, not to her father definitely not, not on her own...no money, not into his house with his wife....

I wish I were kidding when I say this, my X is a Narcissistic Psychopath who abused me for 20 years and wanted nothing to do with the children until he wanted custody, then destroyed our relationships so he can have a free life. At the time, X had symptoms of a WH. Turns out he was having an affair with himself. All about him. 7 years of living the hell of parental alienation and counting. My D here is his latest discarded victim.

PA is like living in a cult. Children with Parental Alienation Syndrome become very much like child soldiers in the war the alienating rages on the targeted parent who has "defected". I wouldn't wish PA on anyone. Anyone who says PA is junk science should count their blessings they have never had to live with it.

My D is looking for "stability". She thinks she's found it with this guy. What she needs is time and space to breathe, to discover who she is and to heal from the trauma she's suffered. In reality, he's rescued her from having to face herself. Dependence is a lousy way to start any relationship.

To his wife, she says they are "just friends". BW has medical issues that keep her housebound.

Did I read something wrong? I thought his wife found a diary your daughter left at their house, where she admits to having sex with him.

And how in the world did that happen?? Is she passing herself off as a family friend of theirs and staying overnight or something? How is it possible that her diary would come to be in the possession of BW?

w4mg. That's a cute way to think of it. Honestly, in reality, this guy is just preying on your D. He is living the high life with his 2 women.

Expose this rat to the light of day. Privacy is for the bathroom...not enabling destructive behaviour. Are you sure that he is 40yrs? I know a few that have lied to make the age difference appear more acceptable.

I'm sorry to hear your story. You need to stand for what is right...it is not easy but is the best for your D. Don't let her guilt trip you.

You did just great! If your DD complains about an invasion of privacy, I would tell her "YOU BETCHA!!" Remind her that she invaded this woman's privacy by having an affair with her husband.

I would also invite her to find a new place to live. Give her 2 weeks to find new digs. She is an adult and is way too old to be sponging off her mommy. Much less carrying on her affair IN YOUR HOME. How shameful that she conducts herself in your home this way. I would be furious if my child behaved like a common street wh*re right under my roof. That is disrespectful to you!

Your DD sorely needs a wakeup call and exposing her affair and throwing her out into the real world will be the wake up call she needs. She will thank you when she grows up.

I have a 23 year old DD.
She lives with us.
Does your DD live with you?

If she does, give her a written 2 weeks notice to move out.
Tell her that she is making choices inconsistent with the values you hold, and therefore she must live elsewhere.

And, back every word by moving her things out on the lawn in 2 weeks.
No empty threats. Real promises.

Go tell OMW. It's the right thing to do and may save your DD a mountain of hurt she has no concept about.

Dumb girls make me want to shake them !!

DD was at BW home when she left to go out with "her friend" (WH). The diary had slipped out of her bag. BW found it. Read about the sex. Then BW confronted DD about it. DD defriended BW from social media and stopped going to the house. Tyrsts happen elsewhere. Including DD's bedroom while I was sleeping.

I know I may have to ask her to leave if she refuses to stop all contact with WH. I'm relunctant to give her 2 weeks notice. Her father changed the locks on the house without telling her at night, in winter without clothes, belongings or medication. 4 days later he informed her she doesn't live there anymore. It took him 2 months to get around to arranging for her to pick up her stuff. She's been denied all contact with her siblings for the last 8 months. 7 years ago, she was allowed to think that I had abandoned her. In other words, she already has huge abandonment issues and is hypersensitive to any criticism. I'm the only family she has right now.

I arranged for her own funding and included her on my lease so that she cannot be asked to leave without 60 days notice.

DD is operating at the age of trauma (15 y/o). She may be 22 on the outside but 15 on the inside. I'm not making excuses for her. This is a kid who's struggling to find her way. Under other circumstances chronological age would be appropriate. Not right now. She's not there yet to be able to cope without a nervous breakdown. She does see a psychiatrist on a regular basis. We're on the waiting list for family therapy. I can probably guess what she tells him....

He is definitely 40. He could be her father. However, listening to him reminds me of my male friends in highschool. (not much maturity there) He's definitely cake eating. His response to DD lying to me about their relationship and not filing for legal separation was "whatever". He's only thinking about himself and his one brain that is situated below his shoulders.

w4myg, your DD is a grown up now. Of course she is a 15 yr old inside because you treat her like a 15 year old. I would not expect otherwise. That is no surprise. That will not change until you push her out of the nest and stop treating her like a child. You are harming her by depriving her of the adult experience of becoming self supporting.

Kick her out, w4mg. That is the best thing for her. If she needs "therapy" she is an adult and can get it on her own.

One of the reasons your DD has such a poor, undeveloped character is because she has never had to fend for herself. That is how people develop character and learn the necessary adult skills to survive.

Her "abandonment" issues is a pack of nonsense and a big distraction from teaching her how to be an adult. She needs to know that you love her enough to NOT support her while she acts like a skank and destroys another woman's family.

And I tell you this as the mother of a 30 year old who piddled away his 20's making bad choices while sponging off his father. He took the long, slow way through college, wasted his time in no win jobs and had no direction. As long as he lived with his father he never got anywhere in life because he never had to work for it.

I let him come to my town [he lived with his father in a small town up north] when he was 26 and allowed him to live with me for 3 months. In that time I expected him to get a good job and move out. And he knew I meant business and was scared to death. He is now the delivery supervisor of a fortune 500 company making a very good living and living in his own home. His car is paid for and he pays all his bills on time.

He is a wonderful man of character who learned to be completely self sufficient. He has a great future in his company. I have enormous respect for him.

Don't comtribute to your DD's crippled state, Ma'am. Help her become an able adult instead of an emotional cripple who lives off hers momma because of her "abandonment issues."

I wish I could explain her emotional state better. She was making progress until this happened. It's put her right back. She's been a cutter and suicidal in the past. I know tough love is in order. I want to do this without putting her at more risk.

I plan to respond to her possible indignant:
"I'm moving out"

with:
"That's a good idea. Your continuing secrets and lies with this married man are hurting our relationship. I'm giving you 60 days notice from today to find your own place and am willing to help you do so."

My DD was on the verge of a physical affair, but it had already become an emotional one on her part. The MM was a player, so I don't believe he had any intentions other than a good time at my DD's expense.

I called his wife. He came to me and aked me to stop calling his wife because he and DD were "just friends". I told him that a married man had no business being friends with a single woman and that I expected him to cut off all contact. I told him to write DD a letter that his wife approved of to cut off all contact. He did.

WWIII broke out for a bit, but DD is now glad that I save her butt, since MM got into drugs and eventually arrested for operating a meth lab. His wife had already divorced him.

I just told my DD that I didn't care how old she was...that I would not stand by and let her do wrong. Now, we're probably closer than ever, and she has much more respect for me.

Perfect! But you have to hold her to it. It will kill you to do it, but if you want her to grow up, you have to follow through. You will see amazing results in a few years. I look at my son and I am AMAZED at how much he has grown up these past 4 years. He is not the same man!!

"She needs to know that you love her enough to NOT support her while she acts like a skank and destroys another woman's family."

I completely agree with this statement. I know everyone means well. It sounds like the message to me is "stop being afraid and do it".

I don't understand something. If her father had custody of all the kids and then kicked her out, were you a WW when you divorced, or did you just let him have custody? How did that happen? I'm just trying to understand the dynamic here. What was your previous posting name?

As far as your daughter being mentally 15 years old, that makes it even worse that this scoundrel is having an affair with her. As her mother, the best thing you can do for her is NOT support her in any way, financially or emotionally while she's wayward. Time for her to grow up. Who pays for her psychiatric visits? Does she work?

Mom, be a good mom and teach her boundaries. Let OM pick up the tab. Watch him run for the hills when he thinks he's responsible for her.

She and I already went through something like this 4 years ago (no A, just disrespectful behaviour). I told her the door swings both ways. I'd love to stay and show respecting. Or the door is open if you choose to be disrespectful. She walked out. I didn't see her or hear from her for another 1.5 years. One of the hardest things I ever had to do. It killed me inside. But it was one of the best things I ever did. Up until this, it definitely improved our relationship.

An adult should not be mooching off her mommy. It cripples her ability to grow into a self sufficient adult. Your DD has serious character issues and being out on her own and self sufficient may help turn that around.

Psychiatrists are covered in Ontario by universal healthcare.

My previous posts were removed for safety reasons. I forfeited custody because I was under his influence "brainwashed" by him.

Setting boundaries for XH was started all of this. Narcissistic Psychopaths NPs don't like hearing the words NO MORE.

"Let OM pick up the tab. Watch him run for the hills when he thinks he's responsible for her."
Part of his excuse for not filing legal papers is because "he can't afford to move out."
I say "too bad, so sad".

You got it! And you are talking to people who have been there, done that. Today I have a wonderful relationship with my son and he is a man of character that his peers admire.

Tell your daughter you expect better and will not accept her as long as she behaves like that. I would have NOTHING to do with her as long as she is some married man's mistress. How shameful of her!!

I hope you tell her how very ashamed you are and how she has brought shame on your family. That is exactly what I would tell my son.

This sounds like some kind of therapist psycho babble. Where did this 15 y/o theory come from?

Did you know that most therapists have no real plan for recovery and will waste thousands of dollars on naval gazing with no results except fueling the anger and self pity?

Agree with pokerface. That is a pack of crap. And if your DD needs "therapy" she is an adult and can go get it.

My son had more "trauma" than your daughter [his brother killed, his dad left for an OW when he was 17] and kicking his [censored] into line resulted in remarkable changes. He didn't go to one day of "therapy." His "therapy" was his loving momma holding him accountable.

"such a poor, undeveloped character is because she has never had to fend for herself. "

Quite the opposite. She's had to be the parent. She was left to fend for herself for years without any contructive parenting or boundaries. She was given too much responsibility far too young. Alienation is child abuse similar to that of a hostage. Think what it was may have been like for Jaycee Duggan returning to her family after 18 years captivity.

Her time to develop emotionally was taken from her deliberately.

That would be "too bad, so sad" for your DD if he did. She would be stuck with a lying cheater who has no respect for her and no respect for marriage. Her affair with this man has no future. It is doomed as 95% of affairs never make it to marriage. Of those that do, 70% don't last 5 years and are marriages fraught with adultery and conflict.

If you marry a cheater...............they cheat. What he did with your DD, he will do TO her.

And he won't leave his wife for a cheap piece of side action. They very rarely do. Men don't typically marry women like that. Point that out to your daughter. She is allowing this man to DEGRADE her only so he can get some nookie. She needs to have higher standards.

I'm glad this worked for you. That must have been hell for him to go through. However I'll never compare anyone's pain to another.

I want to see what response I get from the BW. Haven't heard from her yet.

I'm thinking "be care what you wish for, you WILL get it". She wants the WH and he wants her, it's his responsibility to care of her. Let them figure it out in the real world.

I just don't want to see her hospitalized again.

DD deserves someone (a man) to love her exclusively because she's that special. She deserves to live in a world without secrets and lies where she can hold her head up and be proud of who she is.

She only deserves what she earns. And so far she has not earned that by chasing the scraps of some other woman's marriage. BUT if you hold her feet to the fire and REFUSE to accept her as some married man's mistress, she is much more likely to live up to a higher standard.

I know you want better for your daughter because you love her and you are uniquely positioned to help her achieve that.

She is an adult who cannot be protected from the consequences of her poor choices. Protecting her keeps her crippled.

She has never developed as an adult and has very poor coping skills. She has never supported herself as an adult. But you can help her achieve that if you stop focusing on the past. The past should be left in the past. She is a grown woman now. Time to start acting like it.

Could the MM have intercepted the message? Can you call the BW?

You just did.

Possible. The phone is in her name. But he keeps it with him.

What steps are involved if I don't hear from BW?

I would drive right over there and knock on her door and tell her the full story. Do you have copies of the emails, etc, you can take to her?

And did I understand correctly that this worm has actually been in your home?

Yup he has been in the home. This girl has zero respect for her mother and is practically begging for consequences.

When I was 15, (interesting theory) I wouldn't have done that to my mother and expected to live afterwards.

I've written a draft letter to DD and would appreciate input:

Dear XXXXXX

I know your affair with XXXXX continues. It�s written in your own words. As I have said before, I do not condone affairs that are based upon lies, secrets and fantasy. I do not support relationships with serial cheaters. Your behaviour has invaded BW�s privacy to a marriage with her husband. Your continuing secrets and lies with this married man are hurting our relationship and keeping us from growing closer.
You have two choices. One, you can end your relationship with Jody by cutting all contact with him until his marriage to BW is resolved conclusively. If you can do this, I can forgive you. Or two, you can continue your affair. However, I will no recourse but to step aside and give you 30 days notice from today to find your own place and will help you do so. After that, XXXXXX will have the sole responsibility of providing for you.
I will not stand by while you are involved in destroying another woman's relationship and hurting yourself. I will not enable you to continue to lie to me. Nor will I keep your affair a secret. Secrets are too damaging. It�s not healthy for either one of us. In order to protect our relationship, I will not have anything to do with you while you are a married man�s mistress.
I love you too much DD not to take a stand as your mom. You deserve to have a man love you exclusively. You deserve a life outside of the shadows with your head held high. Honourable men do not keep company with women behind their wives� backs. And they do not talk marriage with one woman while already married to another.
Whatever your choice, I need to know your answer by the end of the day.

In the main, I like it.

Maybe a few tweaks (try as you might, your - very touching - love for her bleeds into an apologetic tone here and there).

I've just taken out the parts where you explain yourself a wee bit too much as though trying to win her around. You need to come across much tougher.

She will attack you on your weak fronts and manipulate your love for her.

.

I love that you called her a mistress! Let's see if she can become mistress of her fate.

Don't help, or offer to help her find another place to stay.

Love this.

Thanks for taking the time indiegirl. I appreciate it. Sometimes it's easier to see when you have more than two eyes.

30 days is a long time and the waywards won't do anything until the deadline is close.

A lot of unprotected sex, manipulation and entrenchment of the A fantasy will happen in that length of time.

Is there no way to bring the deadline closer?

She will yell, scream, and move out. Let her. If you want to help her grow, let her go through this trial/humiliation, she will never learn otherwise. She is not 15, she is 22, millions of children go through traumatic experiences/bad childhoods but that does not excuse their behavior to conduct themselves in this manner. I know she is your daughter and you will make excuses for (I do this too...) but being a parent is not about being a friend. Being a friend is easy, that's why they have so many. It takes 'balls', as they say, to be a real parent and that's why so few do so.

No. Because she's a signed tenant on our lease, I legally need to give her 60 days. 30 is the best I can do.

I think sometimes tough love is tougher on parents than children.

I do have a scheduled holiday with her coming up next week. Our first in 5 years together. If I give her the letter now, chances are she will not come with me, leaving her here home alone all week with WH. If I give it to her after we come, we have a chance at spending a week alone away from him without contact. Part of me says do it now. The other part says it's one last chance at giving her good memories with me before reality hits her hard.

I would give her the letter NOW and tell her she can't come on vacation with you. Nor can she allow BW's husband in your home. I would inform the wife TODAY and also let her know that you will be out of town. But I would not take her on a vacation!

Have you made contact with the BW?

Also, when you speak to your DD, I would refer to that bast*rd as "BW's [insert her name] husband."

You can keep him out of your home by informing the BW and giving her the keys to your house. Let her know she can come in and GET her husband if she sees him there. If the pigs know that BW has all this information, they will be less likely to do it.

Does your XH know that a MM is having an affair with his 22YO daughter? I know that my dad wouldn't have been very pleased with an OM in this case.

I also didn't see a response to PM's message. When you were here before, were you a WW? How did your XH get full custody of your children? What was your previous posting name?

I've wondered this, as well. You've told us that he is a psychopath. And yet, he got custody. Clinically diagnosed psychopaths don't get custody.

I think more information is needed.

This is a myth.

The most successful psychopaths are never caught. Those who have had clinically diagnosis have criminal records. Ted Bundy was an unsuccessful psychopath. He's more like Jim Jones or Charles Manson, more psychological and emotional teflon Don than obvious.

FACT: Of all custody disputes, 80% of abusers seek custody. Of those 80%, 80% get custody of the children.

SAB was my previous name. I had it removed by the authorities because he was stalking me.

XH has refused to contact D22 in any way in 8 months. Changed his phone & email so she couldn't contact him. If he did know, he'd welcome the WH with open arms. Only legal correspondence mentioning her name was a demand for information about her $$$. Not once has he asked how she is or if she's OK or where she is.

No response yet from BW.

Good idea about vacation. Which means more to her, vacation or him? If him, she'll have to spend the time looking for a place to live. If vacation, it'll be a good time out for her around people she cares about.

W4MG -

My parents always protected me, sheltered me, and made excuses for me. It's not fair to your child and not a good life for either of you.

I walked away 5 years ago, grew up through some hard knocks, and am a happily married woman now to a wonderful man. And, an adult.

Let her go, let her grow up, and quit making excuses for her.

Steph

Please give us a citation for this. Do you have a website that outlines this? What is your citation for this?

What authorities?

were you ever yourself involved in an adulterous relationship?

Ohmigosh, if I remember correctly, SAB's husband not only had an affair but wanted to be a swinger! He wanted SAB to start dating other men so he could pick up chicks. I remember being shocked at how cruel and crass he was to her. Do I have that right, w4mg?

Yup, Melodylane, that was me. He never had an affair. It was an empty threat. It was nothing but a manipulation tactic to get me to do whatever he wanted and incriminate myself in the process. Nothing's changed. He's still like this exoept worse. He's managed to keep my S21 and other 2 D, 12 & 14, away from me for years. My S in a a true adult child soldier doing his father's bidding. When I finally published my address to keep him from stalking me, he taught the youngest children a hatred of me. My youngest who was 9 a couple years ago become extremely violent and volatile with 7 police interventions and 1 trip to the psych ward. The children's Lawyer report the children's voices equal the father's voice. He falsely accused me of child abuse. Through more manipulation delay tactics, I have had no contact with them for 2.5 years. Any thing I try to send them, he intercepts.

He's done all this for a free life so that he never has to work a day. The children are his income. He continues to use the children as weapons to destroy me. You can see how screwed the children may be through all of this.

I learned alot here at MB about healthy relationships. I've become an social advocate and public speaker. I came back because I know how supportive everyone is.

Sorry, the "authorities" who hid my threads were the MB moderators.

So sorry w4mg.

Thanks, BH.

You can understand now why I may be overly? protective of my children. But you're right my DD has made her own decisions and must live by their consequences. Unfortunately, she's looking for love and belonging in all the wrong places.

With alienated children, it can take years to undo the damage and "rewire" them into a healthy mentality. Some never recover.

Yes it's sad just like any abuse.

Have you heard back from the BW?

not yet

I'm worried WH may have intercepted it. Is there any way you could go over there to her? Say when he is at work?

She is practically housebound from medical issues. He doesn't work. She may not get to FB for a day or two.

should my DD decide to give up MM. how can I make sure she maintains no contact? eg:
all passwords
cellphone
internet
places she goes with him
etc

I can't seem to find it at the moment. Here are some websites that might help

Rates At Which Batterers Receive Custodyhttp://www.stopfamilyviolence.org/info/custody-abuse/statistics/rates-at-which-batterers-receive-custody/

Rate of Domestic Violence In Contested Custody Cases
http://www.stopfamilyviolence.org/i...stic-violence-in-contested-custody-cases

Are "Good Enough" Parents Losing Custody to Abusive Ex-Partners?
http://www.leadershipcouncil.org/1/pas/dv.html

Awesome suggestion!!

Maybe rethink the key advice. I advise on not giving any stranger keys/direct access to your home.

If she is truely disabled and housebound, how are keys going to help her "get her husband?"

I know you have been all around the boards and have read quite a bit about MB. You are getting some good advice, and I think deep down you really know what you need to do.

So, If I understand your sit;

Your 22 yo daughter is having an affair with a married man.
She is currently living with you.
This affair is carried on in your home.
You are affraid to confront your daughter, afraid that she will chose the A partner over you?
There is little/no exposure?


According to MB, you know you are going to have to establish proper boundaries of what is acceptable to you and what is not. You are going to have to learn how to enforce your boundaries related to these beliefs/moral code.

A very hard task, indeed. But you can do this.

Does your daughter fully know how you feel about this situation?
Does she understand the level of disrespect this is to you?

My take is that kids don't have sex. If you are having sex, you are ready to be a responsible grownup and face the consequences of your actions.

I see an awful lot of psychological terms being thrown around in here. Has any of this been diagnosed by an actual psychologist or psychiatrist?

If she's having an affair, it sounds like the problem is her emotional side is plenty well developed and is completely in control. It is not her emotional side that needs further development. It is her rational, responsible side.

Affairees live on emotional thrills in a "day by day" philosophy rather than paying attention to how they need to live to sustain long term happiness.

Ma'am, the biggest problem I see here is that you are codependent with your daughter. Your daughter is a wayward addict and you are unwilling to draw a line. But an addict is a black hole and will never be satisfied.

You can't prevent her from destroying herself, no matter how much you give her. But you'll use that fear as your excuse to give more and more, and more. You'll happily destroy yourself to try to prevent her destruction.

But you'll fail. The biggest problem in her life is not her past, it is her present AFFAIR! (Addiction.) It will destroy her.

And you will have destroyed yourself trying to "help" her, when all you were doing is helping the addiction that is destroying her.

You need to detach FOR YOU.

I agree.
You don't help addicts by enabling their addictions.
There are books out there about tough Love.
You may benefit from reading them

noted.
Still no word from BW.
Gathering evidence.
adultery letter ready
almost there

I disagree. The OMW needs the keys to her apartment in case she sees her husband's car there. That way she can come in for a visit. If her husband in there, she needs to be in there too! That would be a wonderful surprise for the infidels!

Does she live close by so you could drop in?

MM & BW live across the city. I have car. Must take transit. BW has physical mobility issues. Just sent her another message telling her where to find WH's evidence of an affair and asking to meet again.

Anyone know how to print facebook messages easily? My computer doesn't want to select & copy them.

Sorry, I have NO car.

I have all the evidence now together.
Unfortunately, DD not home.

Never mind. I figured it out. 30 pages of messages between DD & MM for month of July 2012. Over 9000 messages since they met in February.

MM gave DD head's up about me being on her FB. Dday is today.

Sorry if I missed it, but can you not call the house? MM might say his wife found out, but I wouldn't be surprised if he intercepted it.

No. I'm not able to call the house. He keeps the phone.

Dday will take place when DD gets home.

So what is your plan, w4?

I've given her my letter to answer by tonight.
She can:
1. cease all contact now and forever with MM and tell me the truth at all times and join me on vacation
2. deny and continue contact with MM and move out by September 01 and MM will have to provide for her with no vacation and notifying relevant agencies of updated status

She's thinking about it.
No word from BW.
I've messaged her all the evidence.
I'll know more later. From now on...no more lies.
No going back now.

The OM can't provide for her, though. He has a family to support. Does she understand she is an adult and has to take care of herself?

Originally Posted by worried4mygirl

I've given her my letter to answer by tonight.
She can:
1. cease all contact now and forever with MM and tell me the truth at all times and join me on vacation
2. deny and continue contact with MM and move out by September 01 and MM will have to provide for her with no vacation and notifying relevant agencies of updated status

She's thinking about it.
No word from BW.
I've messaged her all the evidence.
I'll know more later. From now on...no more lies.
No going back now.

DDay has happened. DD has chosen the MM.

She hardly expressed any emotion. I told her
- not to say much because I can't believe anything that comes out of her mouth.
- how disgusted I was that she would deliberately do this to a sick woman.
- how disappointed that our relationship meant so little to her
- to practice calling herself "the OW" in the mirror because that is what she is now
- she's on her own--I will not support her
- I will not support her with any of this
- MM better be worth it while it lasts--his longest relationship is 3 years.
- to have some self-respect and cover up her body instead of looking like a whore

I've informed
- sent her the What You Will Get If You Marry Your Affair Partner
- my landlord that as of Sep01 DD will no longer be a tenant.
- camp director for our vacation.

I feel sick, disgusted, angry, sad, disappointed, etc. It's done.

Is there anything else, I should do?

Get ahold of the man's wife!

I posted the dear friends & family request on social media.

Aren't you going to continue supporting her until September? It is fatal to say something that you do not mean. If you have told her that you will not support her, she needs to GET OUT. NOW. TODAY.

I am not sure what you mean.. Can you be more specific? Do you have a plan to get to the BW today and let her know all this?

Dear friends and family,

I am writing you this message because you are an important person in the lives of *edit* and I. I confirmed recently *edit* is having an affair with a married man, which has shaken my trust in her. She has been carrying *edit* on an affair with man named *edit* who lives with his wife *edit*. She has chosen not to come to camp with me and is moving out by September 01. This separation is so that she can carry on her affair without my interference.

She refuses to end the affair. I want our relationship to recover from this affair. If you have any influence on *edit*, please do what you can to get her to stop this dangerous affair. I want *edit* in my life, but the affair must end.

As our friends and family, I am asking that you use your influence with *edit* to persuade her to end her affair and try to work on our mother/daughter relationship. Our relationship can be salvaged if she would only end the affair. Please support her in doing the right thing. Please support our relationsip.

I would so appreciate your support and prayers.

Take care,

I sent all the affair details to his wife on social media.

I understand, but it doesn't sound like she got that message since she has not responded. Does your daughter have access to your computer? She could have easily seen the message and warned the OM to delete your message.

Great letter, by the way!

p.s. another way to reach the OM's wife is to call or email her family members and ask them to go and tell her. I would not give up until you have spoken to her personally.

not going to give up
DD has separated computer

I would password protect your computer so your DD doesn't get on it and snoop. Do you have the evidence in a safe place she can't access?

p/w already done
evidence safe

I feel dirty and sick to my stomach. I'm so disgusted.

You are awesome w4mg. I am so proud. Some day your DD will be also...for doing everything you could to rescue her.

What now? Trying to remember what I learned here long ago
Love her from a distance?
Be indifferent?
Get forwarding contact info for when she moves?
ETC?

I would feel pretty sick to my stomach if my own child was shagging a married man. I would let her know how disgusted and disappointed you are.

Will she move out sooner?

DAMN MM!

I

I let her know very clearly and simply. Who know when she'll move. It will be by Sep01 latest.

It staggers me that she could throw it all away so easily and with so little emotion. i felt like shaking her silly (which I would never do in real life). I could barely listen to the sound of her voice.

What are my next steps?
Does anyone ever hear from Starfish or StillSeeking?

You are doing the right thing by not enabling her self destructing behavior.
I have been working for a company recently that has a sign in their employee break rooms, posted by loss Prevention hotline for employee theft . It says: "you can't make them honest but you can make them accountable"

For your next steps I would suggest that you email the marriage builder radio show. The email address is on the marriage builder home page.
All emails are replied to by Dr Harley.
Describe the situation: my daughter is having an affair. I have exposed it and cut her off financially. What else can I do to kill this affair and preserve a relationship with my daughter?

That's why I'm an advocate, public speaker and part of the accountability coalition. It's a thankless job.

good idea

I suspect that your exposure (provided the ww wife actually saw it) would probably KILL this affair.

You say your daughter works for him? Is be a businessman? He will not loose his business in a divorce for a piece of [censored].

That's the truth. Your daughter is probably 100 times more physically attractive than his wife so he is using her. Exposure will probably KILL that.

I never said she works for him. They met in a club 5 months ago. BW is actually quite beautiful. He's such an *()_(*^%&$#%^

You should be brainstorming to develop strategies to deal with possible developments instead of scrambling when they occur.

Using HDW's forecast as an example: Say exposure kills the affair in the relatively immediate future, and MM kicks D to the skank-curb in an effort to retain his business/marriage. This would leave D without shelter or support. What would you do? What would you do if she's pregnant when that happens?

Before maternal impulses cause you to immediately bring her back into your home, it would be useful to view such actions as giving her a home-base for her NEXT assault on some other woman's marriage. Bear in mind that the mindset and attitudes of D were unacceptable today. Removing MM from the picture would not adjust those factors.

Model your new relationship with D on the Plan B here. No, you will not deal with her. No, you will not communicate with her. She must demonstrate full and complete understanding and compliance with the set of moral behaviors the lack of which caused your distaste leading to her eviction. You can no longer be "mommy" to her.

Dr Harley addressed your email question on today's Radio Show.

Dr Harley told her to strive to kill off the affair. Messagve to the daughter should be:

"I care about you and would die for you but you are making the mistake of your life. I am going to try to STOP YOU from making a mistake that is so destructive it will ruin you for life."

In other words, Dr Harley told her to declare WAR on the affair!

Good job, Dr. H! She can't get better support than that!

What I told my daughter was this: "I love you more than my life, but I don't care how old you are...because if whatever I have to do will stop you from ruining your life, I will do it, even if it means you hate me. I can live with your hating me, so long as you are living a decent and moral life and are safe from the likes of him!"

The OM wanted me to quit calling his wife, so I told him to write my DD a no-contact letter, which he did. He already had one OW, and his wife divorced him about a year later. He got mixed up in drugs, and DD, who has no use for drug users, now realizes how much worse a mess she could have been in!

Oh, and we are now closer than ever!

Here's DR. Harley's response to your question worried4mygirl.

Radio clip of Worried4MyGirl's question at 11:00 Mark

Thank you for all you support.

BW has contacted me. She was out of town without access to social media. We're going to work together to end this affair. She's moving out of the marital home at the end of this month.
MM has given notice to move on Sep30.
We'll be getting together in person after she moves out.

Will let you know what happens.

Took Dr. Harley's advise. Listened to the audio. Told her I refused to help her make this huge mistake, loved her dearly and that my silence was protect my sanity and our relationship. (I'm on disability from chronic depression, anxiety, PTSD and chronic fatigue from the ongoing abuse I suffer.)


DD confirmed her move on Aug31 and is now complaining about my No Contact and throwing her wait around going so far as to compare me to her father. My response was:

"There is no place in my life for disrespectful, ungrateful, lying, cheating mistresses. I want my daughter back".

Arranged for counselling for myself this week. I feel like I'm breaking. This is killing me.

The Harley's on the audio said they would send me a copy of Surviving An Affair. What's the process for getting it?

I'm not sure why you're seeking counseling for doing the right thing.

Counseling is good. (there is a joke in AlAnon however that "I spent 20,000$$ on counseling and then I learned there was a better program called AlAnon agree)

It's very difficult when loved ones make destructive decisions and we choose not to enable them.
Sometimes we want to enable them for various reasons, some of us like being victims, some of us want to maintain some sense of control.
But you have followed professional advice and done the right thing.
Encourage the betrayed wife to come to the forums for help.
But remember that you can only control YOUR actions, not your daughters or the bw or anyone else.

I'm on disability already for chronic depression, anxiety, PTSD and chronic fatigue from the ongoing the abuse I suffer from my X. This situation makes it worse.

I suggested this in my message to her. I'll tell her again when we meet face to face.

Did you email Joyce and ask her?

emailed Joyce thx

Make sure you include a shipping address.

I think they get those books out slow.
I was on the show and was going to be sent SAA months ago and still haven't received it
I would encourage you to just buy a copy from amazon so you can start reading it

Still Seeking: I see you're still on MB. It's me SAB. I'm sorry we lost contact. I lost your contact info. Was hoping you'd be back here someday. Please message me. I miss Wendy too.

Can someone explain to me the significance of the "code of ethics" when exposing an affair to an employer?

This will all depend on the size/type of employer you are dealing with. I would only use this method of exposure if the affair partners are co-workers or have some other work-related interaction or if one of the affair partners is using company resources to perpetuate the affair.

What happens is that many companies (more often large companies than a mom and pop type operation) these days will have a Code of Conduct/Code of Ethics that outlines what conduct is expected from employees. Different industries will have different topics covered in their Code. Some employers will specifically address relationships between employees but that is not the norm which is why I recommend finding another "hook" to get their attention and address the relationship. The "hook" that will always get an employer's attention - whether they have a Code of Conduct/Code of Ethics or not - is if the employer's assets are being used to perpetuate the affair. Basically, this amounts to stealing company resources - whether it be time they should be working, using company resources such as corporate cards to buy lunches, dinners, hotel rooms; IT systems; phones; or traveling together on the company dime when there really isn't a need for both to be traveling the same place. Employers don't like that and will want to stop it if it's going on. If you make the call/send the e-mail/letter it will give rise to an investigation. Even if they haven't been using company resources or there is no violation of the Code of Conduct/Code of Ethics, it WILL put the affair under a spotlight and cause great discomfort for the affair partners. If the investigation proves a violation of the company's Code of Conduct/Code of Ethics or other employment rules it usually results in discipline up to and including discharge.

If you have reason to expose to the employer, you will want to use the workplace exposure letter I wrote some time back....I can't find it because I'm not search savvy but others hear are and can link it for you.

Here it is.
Workplace Exposure letter samples

I knew Brain would come along and help me! She's our resident link expert!

This awesome letter is in the thread in the link in my signature.

Surviving An Affair arrived today in the mail. Thank you Joyce. Just in time for my D's leaving tomorrow.

Excellent. Focus on this. I'm glad you got it. Please start reading and let us know your thoughts.

She's gone. That's all I can say right now.

Hugs.

Lots and lots and lots of them.

Just got a scathing email from DD calling my actions unforgiveable, that I drove her to the MM, not to contact her again, accusing my of not caring because I don't call her, etc.

Expected the venom. Deep in the fog. I believe this is typical behaviour. Am I correct?

Should I respond?

Craziest things to come out of a wayward's piehole

Yep. You hit a nerve. Nicely done.

I wouldn't. She won't be receptive to anything you have to say right now. Haven't you aleady said everything you could to convince her of her poor choice?

Teen-age tantrum translation: You Made Me Do It!!!!



Translation: I don't ever want you to contact me because you don't contact me...

Just got a message from BW. She has changed her mind about meeting. She's not happy about my exposure of the affair. Believes it's a private matter.

I let her know that if I can ever be of help to her to let me know. Told her again about MB for support if she needs it.

I sent a response to DD:
"Yours is the typical response of a mistress to the exposure of her affair. You haven't said anything that hasn't been said by others before you and won't be the last.

You'll understand when you're a parent."

nice.

Too bad the BW is burying her head, but at least you contacted her.

How are you holding up?

Ten to one that DD writes you more scathing venom about using the 'mistress' tag. They're twoo wuvs! How dare you!

[/quote]How are you holding up?[/quote]

it' been really rough. yesterday I just crawled out of bed for the firrst time in a week, ate a little better, exercised, puttered. going through the motions. therapy I've been waiting 2 years for confirmed my start in a couple weeks. the program to reunify my youngest children (12 & 14) and me called confirmed process has started at least for me. been kept from all contact with them for 2.5 years.

What do you mean?

Sarcasm aimed at the AP's.

I'm sorry, I should've added the /sarcasm tag.

Try not to feel too bad--as others have said, this is typical for the OW in an exposure situation. She is saying nothing to you that hasn't been said before.

Do exercise. Pick up a new hobby! Do things for you!

How dare you tell people I'm in an adulterous relationship, mother!!! You're assassinating my character. What are you going to do next, put an ad in the local paper?

No, the BW was saying that it was a private matter, not W4MG's DD.

DD also told me that she lied to me about her affair because it was none of my business to know.

It's my business when her behaviour affects our relationship.

New hobby: boxing training, not in the ring

Boxing training sounds like a great idea.

When her cavorting with a married man causes your relationship to start crumbling, yes, it IS your business, I agree.

She knew you would disapprove.

I also box. I don't plan on going into the ring, but it is AMAZING for a total body workout. Be forewarned, it builds MUSCLE.

You did the right thing and one day, when your WD gets her head together, she will see it.

MM called me tonight wanting to talk. I said no and hung up. There's nothing he could say that I would believe after all the lies he's told.

Your exposure probably lit a fire under his butt. He probably would have asked you to recant, or something like that anyway. Good on you for not talking to him.

Yup.

There's nothing MM could possibly say that I would believe anyway. He's told too many lies. Encouraged DD to lie to me. Even BW says he's manipulative. Nice try...but no thanks. If he tried say it didn't happen, my information comes from him messages to DD. Then, he'd either be lying to her or to me. Either way he'd be lying.

You are doing the right things for your daughter.
She's still in control of her decisions but you have made it clear that you will not enable self destructive behaviors.
That is good parenting.

Why have you been separated from your other 2 children?

Actually it's other 3 children from parental alienation. It includes my S21 who has only spoken 2 not so nice sentences to me in 7 years. It's very much like a cult where the alienating parent is the leader, the children are the members and the targeted alienated parent has defected.

The very short version is they've been brainwashed by their father into a hatred of me to the point of no contact so he can guarantee himself a free life with the children being his income. Their voices equal their father's voice. They are puppets, child soldiers. It's psychological emotional child abuse. Since DD renewed her relationship with me after 5 years of no contact, her father discarded her and has kept her from her siblings. It could be said they are being held hostage. The children are completely isolated from family friends church activities that have anything to do with me, including now the authorities and counselling. The legal system has failed them and me.

I was falsely accused of something called "parent-child relationship conflict". It was the symptom, not the cause. The judge ordered a "temporary" suspension. I warned them I would not see my children again. They didn't believe me. 2.5 years and counting....

If someone ever says, parental alienation does not exist. I say they are blessed never to have had to live it. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

I don't really want to talk more about it on these boards.

In the message I sent to her about her typical mistress response, I felt like saying
"Play time's over. It's time to grow up."

You may want to consider calling the MB Radio show for advice on how to proceed with that

I would like to share some of my personal experience with parental alienation. It happened with my mother. When my parents became divorced, my brother chose/coerced to live with my father, whereas I chose to live with my mom.

The alienation occured between my mom (including myself) and my brothers. They rarely spoke for many many years. Almost 12 years later (after the divorce) my father died. A couple years after that, my brothers finally started talking to my mom again. My father has been deceased just over 20 years now.

I remember one day my mom called. She was happy and crying. One of my brothers had spoken to her and said "mom, you are nothing like dad said you were". This was definitely a turning point for her as well as myself in rebuilding our relationships with each other.

It is very said that it took his death for this to happen, so much time was wasted.

Logans Run: I'm sorry this happened to your family. You know exactly what I'm talking about. Sometimes it doesn't end until the alienating parent dies. it's neverending grief. I'm glad you've all been reunited eventually. Nothing can replace the time that was taken from you.

what did your brothers call your mom during their absence? I watched myself cease to exist in front of my children. I went from being mom to [w4md] to $*#% to nothing at all.

I really do not remember to much about that time. There was much hurt and anger all around during that time. My mom, my brothers, and myself do not talk about that time much. We do not bring it up, we are not rug sweeping, it was what it was, kwim? We talk of family pre-divorce (our childhood) and our life and life experiences now.

I did say something once and my older brother became angry and offended because of my comment. He felt I felt I was making a snide comment of our father. It was just my prospective of growing up. When he came to me in tears and told me how upset he was. I told him that I was sorry about offending him. I went on to say, we both grew up in the same house up until the divorce, we both have very different prospectives on how things were. We are both correct in our own prospectives. This was only 8 years after my fathers death. A few more years went by before we all were able to communicate better with each other.

Things much better now, for all of us.

Time does heal. We are much closer now. There is much love with us.

DD & I had finally reached again in the last 2 years what you have with your brothers now...and it's gone. It seems as if it never happened. it's so unfair. all because of a selfish MM.

Just to let you know.....this was not a quick process for our family. This took place over a 30 year period, starting in 1982 the year of my parents divorce. The hurt feelings by my comment to my brother took place 15 years ago. This has been a very long process for our family. I never thought I would be able to have a relationship with my siblings or ever thought my mom would as well.

None of this was pushed. My mom was extremely patient, she let my brothers come around on their terms, she always let them know she was there for them,, never pried, never questioned, never showed sadness, pain, anger, and never bad mouthed my father to them or to me. I know she was sad about not spending many years with her sons, as a parent now, I cannot even imagine her her pain over the years. She is greatful now for her relationship now with them. We cannot change what was then, we have what is now.

Logan I wish you could talk with my children one day.

For me it's been 7 years with no end in sight. That's what's made my prodigal DD's return so wonderful. She called me on my birthday out of the blue to say "happy birthday mom" Who know 3 little letters could mean so much.

I worry for all of them. I think I can understand your pain. The only thing I can equate it to is a kidnapped child, like Jaycee Duggan. They're out there someone and all you can do is wait and hope the damage to them is not permanent or intergenerational.

The only thing that sustains me is that unconditional of a targeted parent is forever. The alienating parent is about control, not love. I have to wait that one more time or day than the alienating parent does.

If you get a chance read http://www.akidnappedmind.com/. It's a true story. I've met Pam. She's phenomenal.

Just received an interesting email from DD after being one week:

"I wish I could come home. My anxiety is so bad, I can't stop crying and I can't even go out. I'm scared."

Just received an interesting email from DD after being one week:

"I wish I could come home. My anxiety is so bad, I can't stop crying and I can't even go out. I'm scared."

Still no remorse. Just all about her. No understanding.

I'm thinking of replying "you know what I expect from you. Feeling disgusted, surprised, angry, relieved, ambivalent.

Did you tell her any conditions to be allowed to come back?

End her affair and tell BW the truth?

She knows what I expect from the letter I gave her to give up MM or move out. I replied,

"I have faith you will work it out."

Even though you have finally reconnected with your daughter. You will have to stand firm by your conditions for her to be able to come home. BH is right, she has to end the A and tell the BW the truth.

She is so young and she can turn this around. You are still her mom, she is still your baby girl. Stand firm. She will appreciate your strength in time.

She's playing you. Don't fall for it. Let her know that she is welcome to come home when she's dumped her loser OM for good, and that you will be talking to OM's wife to confirm it.

I think she needs you more than she needs OM. Use this to your advantage.

She knows what I expect from the letter I gave her to give up MM or move out. I replied,

"I have faith you will work it out."

Logan: I can't seem to send you a private message.

I'm part of the working group with Dr. Bill Bernet to parental alienation included in the DSM-5 and the ICD http://www.who.int/classifications/icd/en/ in 2013. They are also looking for PA stories. If interested please email your story to:

*edit*

DD left a message crying that she wants to talk and that she loves me. I've said all I can say for now in writing. I'm thinking of the returning the call to listen.

No, don't call. Not unless she fulfills your expectations that you set out.

I second karmasrose's comment. Your DD is trying to break through your No Contact request. She's trying to break you down and knows which emotional buttons to push in order to do that. It appears to be working; you're actually considering listening to her babble. Don't.

Is there someone who can tell her that you wish no contact with her until she agrees to dump loser OM?

I've sent another message to friends & family saying I will only have contact with DD WHEN she ends the affair. I understand they want to help but trying to get us together at this stage is not appropriate. What they can do is put pressure on her to end it.

Your boundaries are firmly in place. Very good. Stick to your guns, Mom.

DD's phone calls have stopped. Now she's sending me emails which I've deleted unread.

Typical mistress, this is considering a week ago, she never wanted me to contact her again and nothing to do with me. Are you lying or are you lying? The answer is yes.

You are doing great!

Love your attitude!

Fully in Plan B. Thank you everyone for your support. HUG

Just remember, if you need to vent, we're here. If you're thinking of talking to her without proof that she's ended her affair, come here. If I'm not on to listen (I usually am), someone else will be.

Thanks karmarose. I do find it hard not to call to touch base with her to see how she is. We used to do that every day for the last 2 years.

I don't miss the lies. Here's to MM falling flat on his face really soon.

I can imagine he will, with your exposure. Even if his BW is not on board with exposing things, you clearly got to a few important people and he knows people will be watching him.

I really miss DD. How as a parent do you choose not to know where your child is or if they are OK? Her father's done it for 9 month...I'm not him. For a long time I didn't know because the choice was made for me. Not knowing now is going against everything inside me.

Here's to the A falling flat on its face really soon.

Although she is an adult, she's your daughter. She needs your support. She is probably stunned right now that you have taken this approach to her dirty activities- I suspect she assumed you would accept her regardless of what she has done. You have set your bar high and demanded that she respect it - good for you! Good for both of you!

Be at peace, knowing that you are doing the best possible thing for your child. Isn't that what we all want for our kids?

MB: Did you set your bar high to be better than ever?

Yes, ma'm, I did. I refused to accept no less. I put that bar up there and he knew I meant business - there was no debate. Get onboard, or GET OUT.

He got on board. We're doing great

I'm thinking:

height of the bar = amount of self-esteem

No, don't think that way. Think: Here is the bar that I am giving to you. GRAB IT.

This has nothing to do with self-esteem. She can reach it if she wants to. It has nothing to do with her self-esteem; it's all about what YOU, her trusted person, requires.

I think what she meant was it was the self-esteem of the person SETTING the bar, but you're still right.

karmarose is right. sorry for the confusion.

I think it applies nicely to both

Self-esteem follows right actions, whichever side of the bar you're on.

Neak, do you mean it doesn't matter if you are drinking, or if you are the bartender?

Am I on the right thread?

Does it matter if you fall off the bar stool?

Is worried4mygirl Ok?

Any change this week?

SS

PS, I couldn't resist.
I promise I will try to do better.

Nothing to do with alcohol. More like the difference between highjump and limbo, or how high or how low you go. Highjump is achievement. Limbo is bending over backwards the lower the standards.

still have had no further contact from DD. I guess she's not scared and unconfortable enough yet.

do miss her though, praying she's OK.

You can take comfort that God knows when a single sparrow falls from the tree.

Your daughter is walking in a dark valley of sin and temptation.
At this point I encourage you to ask your entire church to pray for her.
And read Hosea in the Old Testament. Pray that God places hedges of thorns around her

I pray for footsteps that G*D is carrying her through this and being the Man she does need.

May she feel too uncomfortable soon to give MM up and come home.