I am here at the request (coersion?) of my husband. He told me to simply present one major issue. I will do that but only after stating that my husband subjected me to more than a decade of angry outbursts.

Almost 16 years ago, six weeks into our engagement, at a company Christmas Party (we both worked there), I left my husband to get us both a drink (beer). In my husband�s words, it was the happiest night of his life as he was publicly sharing our engagement and dancing with me. When I left my fianc� (now my husband) I stopped and began chatting with some other people. I ended up sitting down at another table and soon enough my ex-lover sat down beside me. I don�t remember a lot (I had drank several beers) but apparently I began to talk exclusively with my ex-lover. The talk went on for twenty plus minutes. Finally, my fianc� came over and asked me to dance. At the end of one dance I again left him (my fianc�) and returned to sit down and talk to my ex-lover. Three minutes later my fianc�) again returned to ask me to dance. During this dance with my fianc� I began to talk again with my ex-lover about getting a ride home for a drunken friend. As you might imagine, my fianc� and I ended the evening with a near break-up. My fianc� was suicidal. I apologized as much as I could.

I will ashamedly tell you that I became involved with this ex-lover while I was married to my first husband. I left my first husband and divorced while in a relationship with this man. My fianc� was aware of this history. Despite a near break up after this incident.

For several years there-after, my now husband experienced flashbacks and emotional trauma, the whole fight or flight thing whenever something triggered his memory. Recently he has explained to me that while he no longer feels the pain of this memory, he has not forgotten it and he tells me whenever I do something (such as lie to him by omitting information for example) that triggers the memory, he still feels the pain. He tells me that this incident during our engagement i the worst mental pain he has ever, known. I have begged him to get help to get over this but he has not gotten over it.

Two weeks into our marriage my husband found a Valentines card with a rather over the top level of personal sentiment written to me by a former boss. I have considered this boss a friend for years, I worked with him for 13 years before meeting my husband. I never thought of him in a sexual way but he was like the big brother I never had. My husband was very upset when he found the Valentine that I had saved. He told me that I had lied to him about my �friend.� Furthermore, my husband of two weeks demanded that I have no further in person contact with this former boss. I cried a lot about it and reluctantly complied. My husband also sent this man a letter and told him that he would send this �friend� of mine�s wife a copy of the Valentine Card if he ever saw me in person in the future. I cried to my husband when I learned this.

Today, 15 years later, my husband is asking me to come to marriage builders and ask for direction. He states that I obviously had an emotional affair with my boss and that I have refused our entire marriage to make a clean break with this man. He states that the fact that this former boss is the brother of my ex-lover (whom I left my first husband for) is strange in and of itself. I will note that my ex-lover was a known severe alcoholic when I began seeing him.

Go back three years and my husband actually tape recorded me trash talking about him to my mother, and to my best friend. I was angry at my husband as he had at that time told me that I needed to write a no contact letter to my former boss. I had visited my former boss�s home to deliver a 25th wedding anniversary present several years earlier. My husband found several phone calls from me to my former boss on our phone bill. I had only called the man to ask for help on a project I was working on. He (my former boss) did not eventually help me.

My husband also tape recorded me talking about the fact that I did not want buddy help for my project but that there was a man I respected who I went to instead who made me feel good and that I needed to feel good, and that I needed him then because there were so many things going wrong in my life. I have told my husband that I do not know who I was talking about and that I have not had an affair. My husband does not believe me.

Now my husband states that he does not feel safe in our marriage and that if I do not learn about boundaries, and that if I do not learn to feel empathy for the pain he has been in since the second week of our marriage that he will leave. He states this is not a threat but rather a simple unwillingness on his part to live in constant fear of my failure to honor and believe in the need for boundaries for our marriage. I don�t believe I have done anything wrong and I have not had an affair. He is welcome to polygraph me on that issue.

I have also admitted to my husband that I engaged in telephone and e-mail correspondence with another man who was family friend of my parents. This man is now deceased, and was older than I. For me, my relationship with this man was sort of counseling. I did confide marital issues with him. My husband states that this relationship was an emotional affair. I was never interested in this man sexually. This relationship occurred between 2005 and 2010. I told my husband about it a month after the man died.

Recently I have had an old next door neighbor (while growing up and in highschool) send me a face book compliment (my husband calls it hitting on me) �I love your new haircut�
My husband was very unsettled and upset about the comment and asked me to back him off. My husband stumbled upon the facebook message because I left the computer open and I had not told my husband about it. I simply ignored the comment and my husband�s request for me to send the man a �gentle, tactful back off message.� This summer I received many happy birthday messages on facebook. This same old next door neighbor sent me an elaborate electronic birthday card. I ignored it. I did not tell my husband about it but again, my husband found the card. My husband again asked that I do something to push away the unwanted attention of this single, widowed man. (I was a bridesmaid to his wife when he was married). My husband also found this man�s cell phone number on my old cell phone (I removed it when I changed phones two years ago).

Last week I chose to use a neighbor across the street (a man who is a professional handyman) to help me and our 13 year old son put up a gazebo in our back yard that I knew my husband did not want built. My husband tells me that by keeping a secret with this man across the street for a week, that I again lied to him and that I have now used a neighbor (whom we have socialized with) to keep secrets from him. I think my husband is virtually paranoid. My husband wants to never have anything to do socially with the man across the street now (I note the handyman did not know I had not told my husband I was going to use him to erect the gazeebo). And my husband says that little omissions on my part like not telling him I was going to pay to erect the gazebo are all it takes to trigger all his fear and pain. He says it is not enough for me to say I am sorry or to promise to do what he says. My husband states that if I don�t actually agree with the values involved in protecting a marriage from opposite sex friends that there is no hope for us.

I think my husband is very jealous and controlling and that he needs help. His angry outbursts over the years have been very damaging to our marriage. I will admit that he has done something about them in the last three years.

So I am here, reluctantly, but I am here. I would rather take my husband to a therapist and tell them that my husband cannot get over these things and that he dwells and dwells on them. My husband says that coming here to this forum is the step I need to take.

Me 50
He 57
Son 13

People like yourself who are prone to Independent Behavior often throw down the controlling card when confronted with the error of their ways.

People who are trying to have an honest marriage without secrets or independent behavior get MAD when they are accused of being controlling for wanting honesty and agreements.

You do need to shore up your boundaries around men--delete all non-relative males from your FB account, stop asking other men for help, and set up a polygraph for yourself.

Discuss doing the online program here with direct help from Dr. H if you don't come out of your fog soon and can't see that your H is trying to protect your marriage while you seem hell-bent on destroying it.

While your husband should not be having angry outbursts, your lack of respect for him is glaringly obvious.

If your husband has a problem with your being in contact with certain men, you should have absolutely no contact with them.

You should NEVER be sharing any personal or marital information with any man other than your husband.

With your past history of disrespecting your husband, it will take a very long time to rebuild your trust, so you should eliminate all male friends from your FB. Actually, you should change your FB page to a joint one with your husband, and he should have complete access to it...withOUT your deleting anything on it. Your husband should also have complete access to your phone and the phone records anytime he wants.

As for the gazebo, you state that your husband did not want it built. Why, then, did you go behind his back to build it?

Examine yourself, and quit putting all the blame on your husband. You own your share of the problems.

Your thread is very disrespectful to your husband and marriage.

It seems you have a lifelong pattern/belief that these things you do - keeping in contact with men when it upsets your husband - is normal, okay, and acceptable. You have already committed adultery in your first marriage. You have a serious problematic pattern here and he's not dumb.

We're here to tell you that these things are NOT okay.

You want to take your husband to a therapist to tell him that's he's being over the top and insecure? To be quiet? To put up with your consistent independent behaviours?

Your husband should start his own thread.

You spent 20 min talking to an ex lover in public and this has given your husband anxiety? Are you sure that you're being completely honest here?

You should never bad mouth a spouse to anyone... Not even a parent.

If a spouse is jealous, it is usually because the other spouse is doing things to give concern.

Yes, kt, it was the lover, then the ex-boss, then the old neighbor, and then the new neighbor, and also there was a man who she doesn't remember who he was. Also, the old family friend. Probably she missed some, but let's give her the benefit of the doubt, eh, that there were only 6 men she went behind her H's back to correspond with/get help from/allow to counsel her, okay?

Six is a LOT!

The polygraph she is scheduling will out any others.

It is not unreasonable to ask you to stop with the other guys. It is called boundaries...and all healthy marriages have them and respect them.


Why would you go behind his back and have the next door neighbor build a gazebo that your DH did not want? I'm trying to get my head around that one. Surely you knew that it would cause conflict ..did you think that maybe DH wouldn't notice the new gazebo or did you just not care about DH's feelings? Honestly, think about it. It was spitting in his face. How would you feel in his shoes? Would you feel loved and cared for?


Your DH is working on cleaning up his side of the street (i.e angry outbursts.) Are you willing to work on cleaning up your side?


A marriage is about loving, caring, and protecting your spouse and their feelings. MB can help both of you but only if both of you are open and committed to it.

I don't understand why I have to give up my friends when I have not done anything wrong! What is wrong with me having a neighbor help me erect a Gazeebo. I didn't promise my husband that I wouldn't put it up. I just knew he didn't want to do it.
What is wrong with me getting compliments? I didn't ask for them and I didn't respond to them.
Why can't I have friends at work or when I am at school? Just because the friends are male? That doesn't make sense. I am not sleeping with them!
My husband was seriously broken by his first wife who cheated on him with his best friend. I get all the blame.... He is punishing me for what his first wife did!
I didn't have an affair!

Me 50
He 57
Son 13

I see you bucking, understandably, against your H's demand that you adopt the values of protecting your marriage against opposite-sex friends. I actually agree with you if what you are saying is that he wants you to be as offended, instantly, at your behavior as he has been.

He can't demand that you change your feelings. He can request that you change your behavior, though, and lay out consequences which are natural. It is a natural consequence of disregarding protection of your marriage to lose that marriage.

Please read through the basic concepts, and come back with questions, especially any oppositions to them.

Just wanted to say .. firstly .. to the OP. I feel you are speaking like an entitled wayward wife and feel you should really have a good read around here. (basics, Q&A, ARticles)

I feel you also sounded like my wife did when she was defending herself (before she got on board with MB) and stating that she was allowed to have conversations with whom ever she pleases and it was none of my business.

If your hubby went out and did something you asked him not to do .. I bet you would be pretty upset towards him and feel unloved and somewhat betrayed.

To the readers; I believe her hubby may already be here .. I have a faint memory of reading something similar as what the OP describes in regards to the dinner party incident.

If your hubby already here? If so . .whats his username?

Stick around ... read all you can ... you will find that MB benefits BOTH of you. Feel free to read my story. Heck go read my wifes thread (mrsniceguy) she explains it rather well how she felt before and after implementing MB.

MNG

What is wrong with hurting your spouse?

Can you answer that one?

Are your male friends more important than your H?

What is an Affair?

Are you willing to do whatever it takes to save your marriage?

He's right.

Does your husband post here?

It's called independant behavior, and it is destructive to marriages. Take some time and read the basic concepts.

Because it is offensive to your husband, and destructive to your marriage.

No, YOU are blaming his first wife, and refusing to take responsibility for your own actions.

Yes, Hon, you did.

About the gazebo, you should always ask your spouse how they feel about things before you do them. It's not asking for permission; it's taking their feelings into consideration.

If there are things you are doing that are upsetting your husband, you stop doing those things.

Your flippant attitude tells me that you are NOT willing to do whatever it takes to save your marriage.

The fact that you have no respect for boundaries whatsoever tells me that you are very dangerous to remain married to. If you do not take action to change your behavior soon, I would recommend your husband file for divorce.

Are there any children you are subjecting to this?

Technically, if you don't agree, you can still save your marriage if you do it anyway.

Look at it this way: you and your husband live with each other by invitation only. If you want him to continue to be willing to be married to you, then you are going to have to make some changes.

The good news is that the changes are going to result in a much more fulfilling marriage for both of you.

TFG: It would be a really good idea for you to spend some time exploring the MB website. Pay particular attention to the basic concepts. Better yet, get copies of "His Needs, Her Needs" and "Lovebusters" and read through them with your spouse. If you educate yourself, then you will understand the answers to your questions.You need to familiarize yourself with the Policy of Joint Agreement.You are maintaining active Love Bank accounts for members of the opposite sex. This makes you vulnerable to affairs. Many people would consider keeping a Valentines Card as a strong sign of an Emotional Affair, which is just as deadly to your marriage as sleeping with the man.You are engaging in blameshifting and gaslighting.

Please take the time and become a student of the MB concepts.

I believe this is a 15-16 year marriage with 13 year old son.

TheFlowerGirl,

You had an affair in your previous marriage. You have had an emotional affair in your current one. Please understand that "affair" does not mean you have to be in love and have sex with another man. It is about letting another man (or men) meet the needs that are for your husband.

As a woman who has already demonstrated poor boundaries, it is unfair to your husband and inconsiderate to insist you are entitled to male friendships. There billions of women on this planet, and I'm sure thousands within your surrounding home, who can provide you friendship without making your husband feel upset.

You have a consistent pattern of wanting admiration from other men - do you not realize this? Do you think it is appropriate to seek admiration from men other than your husband, especially when he is hurt by it?

I have never gotten a Valentine's card from a man who I was not involved with.

Is there something wrong with me?

(MB team: you don't have to answer that, lol)

I think my husband is virtually paranoid.

Confuscious say, "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean people are not out to do you harm!"

My goodness, Princess, you certainly do have a large portion of self-entitlement, do you not? The examples in your note are legion, so let me concisely point out my favorite:

Last week I chose to use a neighbor across the street...to...put up a gazebo in our back yard that I knew my husband did not want built.

So given the long-standing evidence that your husband has been struggling with your improper relationships with other men, you decide to unilaterally override his opinion on this gazebo, and contract with (yet) another man to build it behind his back!

You credit your husband with the following:

My husband states that if I don't actually agree with the values involved in protecting a marriage from opposite sex friends that there is no hope for us.

Are you telling us you disagree with the sentiment in that statement?

Look, send your husband here. We would love to have the opportunity to assist him in straightening out your warped sense of propriety. Given your choice of "TheFlowerGirl" as an alias, I suggest he sign on as "The Weedwacker"!

Not having opposite sex friends in marriage is not a punishment. Dr. Harley and his wife have always lived this way, and neither one of them has ever had an affair.

Have you read any of the materials on this site?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8119_friends.html

Flowergirl,

What do you want? Do you want to be happy? Put your emotions to the side for just a minute and ask your MIND these questions.

It appears you are not happy. It also appears your H is not happy either.

MB can solve these issues for you if you give it a chance.

Fall in Love, Stay in Love and Lovebusters are some of the best selling marriage books in history for a reason. They will help both of you identify how to build a great life together.

MB can be a lot to digest when you first look at it. I get that. Eliminate independent behavior? oh my! Always take my husbands feelings into consideration with every decision? goodness! Mutually agree on all decsions? Good grief!

In the end, if you truly want a wonderful, long-term marriage, there are things which (many of us here have had to do)you must do including taking an honest look in the mirror try to become the best mate you can be.

Hmmm. This sounds familiar. Where have I heard this before? Man! It just escapes me . . . can't quite place it.

Oh yeah! Sitting in my office talking to my wife about her "friend" at work 10 months before I caught her boarding a plane with him and an unopened pack of condoms.

Yeah, that's where it was. I remember now.

(Insert emoticon depicting TheFlowerGirl whistling past the graveyard.)

Flowergirl,

Let me guess, you are good looking, in good shape, outgoing, personable, friendly and trusting, and none of these men you mentioned have ever had any sexual interest in you what so ever, and you clearly do not want to offend them. Right? You are my wife and I'm your husband. My wife's actions, like yours, and innocent as they 'may' be, have created much controversy in our marriage of 22 years. Check out what is referred to here as boundaries. Listen to what is being said and read around here for awhile.

OldWarHorse: Yea, no doubt. I've heard all this same stuff from my wife.

Flowergirl,

Please understand that many people have been emotionally devastated by spouses that have similar attributes as yours.

You may feel attacked, and that is understandable, but if you can look past that and really hear what people are saying you may learn that you are doing things that really hurt your husband, and if you continue to do them you will loose your marriage.

You can be as justified as you want or believe that this entire deal is silly, but it doesn't matter, your husband is threatened by your actions and doesn't feel safe with you anymore.

Personally, I don't blame him. My wife did the same thing and eventually 'accidentally' slept with the other man. After this she took on the same attitude as you telling me I had no right to ask her to end all of her opposite sex relationships.

She, like you, thinks I'm crazy and controlling. That may be, but it's not without reason. Soon she will be alone and our family will be permanently broken, but that doesn't matter because she thinks she is right.

So please ask yourself. Would you rather have your freedom to do things that hurt your husband (and eventually you and everyone around you) because you are you so convinced that you haven't done anything wrong, or are you willing to change your ways to make your husband safe around you and have a happy marriage.

It really is as simple as that. Nobody wants to feel unsafe and threatened by the one they love the most.

This is at the front of what is causing the problems, with all the stuff in between the lines highlighted to show the irony of flowergirls beliefs(s)?


Such a natural thing and trap that causes more problems in any relationship. Might I add that it started at engagement party, when FG you were a little drunk, talking to an ex-lover, and who was brother to your x-boss?. We can add in that X was also a known alcoholic.

I think you husband handled himself pretty well in that situation, except he did not come right out and tell the guy to buzz off and get lost. I imagine he was respecting your feelings, and taking the hit for the relationships sake.

You and he will learn sacrifice is a dangerous thing in marriages, and it puts us on a precipice that we have to balance ourselves on. Many times we fall off the edge.

So your Husband is still trying to gain that security he desires in the marriage? Good for him, and hopefully good for all of you and your family.

In the first quote I highlighted something in red, that is merely a fantasy that many women entertain, and one that has been causing you problems many years. Sure you can find tons of people who will take the side of,"Well I never would...!" ,but this too is vanity, and like the tigers trainers Siegfried and Royd, who for years defied the nature of the beast, one of them were bitten a few years ago. They don't blame the Tiger, because he is just an animal, but do you realize that your H has these emotions of an animal nature also? So do the men you are "freinds" with.

Your H has held his emotions in check and put up with this independent behavior since..your engagement announcement? Yeah FG its been a long time, and all he wants is security. I think he deserves it don't you?

Read and learn on this site, and have some compassion for your H, your walking a thin line and you don't want your Son to look back and wonder why Mom treated Dad like a suitor, instead of a loved and cared for Husband of choice.

Choice, and you own your choices, they are the only things that are truly yours

This is where we disagree, you have done something wrong. You are hurting your husband.

If you husband insisted on stepping on your feet and told you that he was not hurting you, would that make your pain go away? Of course not.

In the same manner, just because you announce that you are doing nothing wrong doesn't make it so.
If you don't value your marriage, then nothing. But as long as you are willing to risk your marriage for these things, we know how you value it.
Then why did you marry him, knowing he was broken? Don't try to lay this off on him. If he was broken, and you married him and insist on continuing your behavior, you further bolster the argument that you are behaving in a selfish and now since you know of his, as you put it, brokenness, cruel fashion.
Actually, you did have an affair with your ex-lover with your first husband. Given you have this history and his history, I think he has good reason to be concerned.

Yes This is true, but of course we are making some assumptions here.

1. Attractive. Well confidence is attractive, and you certainly have shown confidence in posting here. The eye of the beholder is where beauty is found, and from what I read in your post you are verbal and intelligent, and like the above poster noted, probably can hold your own with anybody in keeping up with the conversation(s).

2. Professional. From what gathered you hold/have held your own job and have skills in that respect with communication at least. I am not sure because of reference to old Boss and his brother/X lover, but I will assume you have professional skills that any man would be proud to support. But you are able to hold your own in your job and contribute to a household.

Assuming both of those attributes are right, you also have come here and are completely open about what you feel and challenging this board as to what your H is going through, as is very well known to MB members, and to Dr H and his staff, as a valid issue.

Let me shake your hand please, and welcome you to MB. There is plenty of help here so dig in and do some reading.

The board doesn't replace the books, or the nessesary time of adjustment, to dispel and disprove the many myths circulating about marriages. To that issue I will defer to Dr H and the staff

Keep reading here and I know it will be a life changing experience for the good benefit of you and your H

Flowergirl,
the advice here is good. I would recommend that you read some of the articles on the site here, and the threads people have suggested.
Also Dr Harleys books. As well as His Needs Her Needs, which someone already mentioned, I think you might also get something from "Buyers, renters and freeloaders" - in terms specifically of how being (happily) married is different from dating or cohabiting type relationships, and how the kind of friendships you have is something that you need to take more account of when married, if it bothers your spouse at all.

The idea in a nutshell is that by only doing things that you are BOTH enthusiastic about, that is one of the requirements of building love in the marriage. Departing from that reduces the love.
Its immaterial what the reason is that your spouse objects. What is important is that he does.

This seems "wrong" to a lot of people who come here for the first time, but believe me, it works. It seems wrong because a lot of the conventional advice out there in magazine columns, newspapers and from counsellors, is that you have a right to do what you want regardless of others ( as long as its legal). That may be appropriate for some things, but not for marriage. This is not a "moral" system at its core, it is a system Dr Harley developed based on discovering what works to save marriages.


Think of it this way, yes, you do have a right to do things. But there are many things you have a right to do that you wouldn't do, because there are consequences. You have a right to completely trash your house, for example and smash up your furniture. But you probably wouldn't because the consequences would be nowhere to sit and the cost of repair. Your husbands emotional turmoil and lack of trust in response to your opposite-sex friendships and independent behaviour is one such consequence - and the effect that subsequently has on you. In a marriage, you need to be in it together, pulling on the same team.

If he doesn't want a gazebo and you do, no gazebo goes up until and unless you both enthusiastically agree on it. Similarly, if he wants a garden shed, and you don't, no shed until you both enthusiastically agree.

Same is true with opposite-sex friends, what you are having for dinner, and any other decision, large or small. Each is an opportunity to improve the love in the marriage.

Also, I suggest read more here, listen to some audio clips, and possibly also the book Surviving an affair to get what is actually meant by an affair here. The Harleys have a definition of it as Intimacy, where one spouse is getting one or more emotional needs met that should be met by the spouse. That may "just" be conversation - for example, talking over your marriage problems with another man - the point is these things build intimacy between you and another person, which is a threat to your marriage. It may or may not include sex. It often leads to sex, but doesn't have to.

But you can read all this stuff, then you can see where this appraoch is coming from.

It is a field tested system based on what works. It has a very high success rate in terms of building more intimate marriages and healing them - as long as people follow the system and don't change it. Its universal, too. There are no special situations where it does not work, and it is not that it works for some people and not others. It simply works because we are all human.

The last line is key " it works because we are all human"

T/J
Sortingit my screename used to be "sortingitout"

Just funny to see it again

End t/j

FG,

Can I give you an example? My wife and I have been in coaching here at MB with S. Harley to address how my W and I seem to get along great on some levels, and on other have stricken such discord that our marriage foundation was going to bring the house down. In one of my sessions, I gave Steve the following example of my concerns.

Example: My W's card club of 12 ladies go for an evening out to conclude their season of monthly card playing and to give a going away to a card member who will be leaving the state (true to this point). While at the restaurant/lounge with appetizers and drinks, my W receives a drink from the waiter that she did not order. She says "I didn't order that", and the waiter says "the gentleman at the bar is buying it". She looks over, and the guy smiles at her and waves, but she doesn't know who he is. She smiles back. Some ladies at the table say to my W "You have an admirer". My W accepts the drink. 5 or 10 minutes later the same 'gentleman' comes over, stands next to my wife and introduces himself to everyone in that area as 'George" and asks my W along with her other friends in the immediate area what brings them out tonight. They explain briefly. "George" asks my W is she liked the drink and holds his hand out to shake hers and asks her her name. She tells him. He then asks my W and the other ladies close by, if they mind if he sits down. My W says that would be ok. George then makes some nice comments about my W, had noticed what she drove up in, that she reminds him of someone, etc etc, etc.

OK I'm a paranoid, but George has just been able to touch my W, knows what she drives, found out her name, is sitting next to her, asked her additional questions, and at absolutely no time has my W ever indicated to George that she has absolutely no interest in him whatsoever. George on the other hand, ever since the drink was accepted, believes he has a shot at something, maybe.

Now, here is what I told Steve I would have preferred happen.....

Waiter brings the drink by, and my W says "I didn't order another drink". Waiter says "it is from the gentleman at the bar". My W looks over at the man and doesn't recognize him, and tells the waiter she doesn't want the drink. The waiter takes the drink back to the man and tells him what my W said. The man comes by moments later with the drink and says to my W, that he didn't want to offend her, but she so much reminded him of someone... please take the drink or it will go to waste. My W says "no thank you, my husband wouldn't appreciate a strange man buying me a drink". The man says, "Well I didn't mean anything wrong by it, please take it...I'm sorry if it came across the wrong way. My W says, "No thank you, I already told you that once, now would you please leave. The man then says, "Well, at least let me introduce myself, I'm George" and he holds out his hand. My W says, I've ask you to leave once, and I'm going to ask you to leave one more time, PLEASE LEAVE!" George leaves.

In the above two scenarios, the first George thinks he may have an opportunity, and in the second, he is shut right down, flame out, ammo gone.

You and my W would be in the first example generally, and your H and I would like the second example. My W and you think George is just a nice guy, friendly with $$ to spend on you a complete stranger; but your H and I believe something quite different.

I am amazed that so many total strangers would spend the incredible amount of effort to share there thoughts and beliefs with me. Please know that I can't possibly respond right now but that I am reading every post. Some of what has been written I understand, some of what has been written is... I don't know. I don't want to appear ungrateful by not responding to each post. I just can't right now and I hope you each know I am reading what you have written. I am scared of my husband's grim view of our marriage prospects and I don't think this is all just about me. Its easier to block it all out and refuse to think about it. I feel overloaded right now. Thank you each one of you. I need time to think.

Me: 50
He: 57
Son:13

You both are 50% responsible for the state of your marriage.

You are 100% responsible for the emotional affairs you have had.

Until the affairs are dealt with then the marriage can not be fixed.

Don't feel too bad. The world tells everyone that "its all about me". Unfortunately that is a destructive way to live in a marriage. In fact I believe the most important point anyone learns about marriage is "it's not about me".

Amen to that just looking, when you marry it is not about "me", anymore

If we thought we had a hard time getting along and understanding our own journey, it gets compounded when we put another human being in the mix, struggling with thier own myths, misconceptions, realizations, etc.


You seem smart and aware FG, and responsible enough to take all this on and be respectful to others

Thank you for not having any quick reactive answers and thank you for answering. That right there shows you care, and don't worry we all realize this is new for you, just soak up the knowledge and power for you and your H

Like anything you get out of it what you put into it. Be a reader and ask questions when you need to

The only dumb question is the one not asked

If you're wanting to stay married, blocking it out is going to have to stop. It's time to finally start thinking about it, and start taking your husband seriously.

What's his posting name, btw? That's a quick question you can answer.

TheFlowerGirl,

I am amazed that so many total strangers would spend the incredible amount of effort to share there thoughts and beliefs with me.

Well many here are still married only because of this site, and when they first came here thought they had no hope just like you. So they are not judging you as outsiders, but relating to you and feeling for you as fellow sufferers and adulterers. They are also returning the favor which they've received.

God Bless
Gamma

FlowerGirl, welcome to MarriageBuilders.
It's the best place you never wanted to end up.

I'm a guy who got into an affair, and I didn't even think I had a "bad" marriage at the time.
You'd have thought that by the time I was 41 years old, I'd have learned that it's not OK to have opposite-sex friendships. But one is never too old to be awfully stupid, and I found out how stupid I was.

Not just my "thoughts & beliefs", but my hard-learned experience. I lived it. Read & learn from it if you dare:

There is no surer way to undermine a marriage relationship than to have opposite-sex friendships. I don't care what you hear from friends or relatives [who don't know better] or what you see on TV sitcoms or in the movies. In real life, it doesn't work. And you've been doing it, by your own admission, since the very start of your marriage.

I sure didn't intend [at first] to get into an affair. The other woman wasn't even an ex-flame of mine -- hell, I'd only known her for less than two years -- she was a fellow singer of mine on a church music team, and one day she approached me to sing a duet with her. What could be more innocent than that, right? And as the weeks went by as we were practicing, we progressed to talking about parenting issues (we each had kids). What could be more mundane or unromantic than that, right? But that's how confidences form, and compliments begin to be exchanged, and emotional needs begin to be met, and it's a slippery slope to marital heartbreak & divorce.

And your boss who sent you a valentine? There's nothing even slightly ambiguous about a man who sends a married woman [other than his wife] a valentine. It's a 100%-clear signal that the guy was trolling for more -- maybe he wasn't going to pursue it unless you made a move in response to the valentine, but his intention was perfectly clear. And any woman with her head on straight would've been horrified at this (especially coming from a boss). But you SAVED it because of the thrill it gave you. That is an unmistakable signal that you were, at that time, emotionally attached in some way. Therefore, yes, you DID have an emotional affair.

And for you to say he was like a "big brother" that you never head? Uh-uh. Big brothers don't send "over-the-top" valentines to their sisters, especially when their sisters are married.

And your 5-year relationship during which you exchanged confidences with another man, other than your husband? If that was "counseling" as you say, then he'd have had a professional license, and you'd have the bills, to prove it. No; What you did in carrying on that relationship is the very definition of an emotional affair. You took time & energy that you could've invested in your marriage, and invested them in this other relationship. It makes no difference that the other man is now deceased.

Your first step toward a better marriage has to be to be honest with yourself about the above. And if you are honest with yourself, then you must also be honest with your husband.

No, recovering a marriage isn't all up to you. If your husband is prone to angry outbursts, then that is something he needs to address. And the two of you must learn to identify and meet one another's emotional needs. You both must learn to avoid so-alled "love-busters" and fill one another's "love banks." (And believe me, when I first was reading "Surviving An Affair" and saw those phrases for the first time, they sounded hokey to me. BUT I was willing to buy in & read & give it a shot, because I was in a fight to the death to save my marriage to the girl to whom I'd promised my faithfulness forever. I'd broken that promise and I wasn't going to let that be my defining legacy for her, for our children or for me.)

FG, you're going to need to radically adjust your lifestyle. You must live with complete transparency. You must completely change habits & mindset (in your case, an apparent lifetime of habits & mindest) that has viewed opposite-sex friendships as acceptable, that has viewed independent decisions made without your husband's agreement as acceptable, and that has viewed getting & saving a valentine from a man who's not your husband as acceptable. None of these things can ever be acceptable to you again.

And your husband is right & has been right for 3 years: You ought to have permanently severed any & all contact with that boss who sent you that valentine. He should not be anywhere in your life. For you to deliberately keep him there is to deliberately stick it to your husband, emotionally-speaking. Why would you continue to do that to your husband & expect your marriage not to suffer greatly? Why would you expect your husband to be anything other than hurt & angry about this continuing disregard for his feelings?

The good news is, that if you re-learn how to be married (or more accurately to say, learn it correctly for the first time), you can have a relationship with your spouse that is better than it ever was previously.

Roll your eyes if you like. Tell me it sounds corny. But I'm here to tell you that, the stuff in that book "Surviving An Affair" should be handed out with every marriage license. (And I don't get a penny for saying so.) If I were you, I'd give it an honest shot. You & your husband should read it together and discuss your reactions to it. Calmly, without yelling and accusations. It'll be way better than any therapist & way cheaper too.

[t/j] dec, IMHO this qualifies as a "Notable Post." Even if it was Steve Harley who came up with it & not you, thanks for putting it out here. An excellent practical example & study in contrasts between someone who maintains proper boundaries vs. someone who fails to do so!

Hi Flowergirl, Welcome to MArriage Builders. The only one I see who has a need for a therapist is you and not your husband. And let me explain why. If your husband told you as far back as your engagement that opposite sex friendships bothered him terribly, why in the world would you have opposite sex friendships? It is not like you don't understand how upsetting it is to him, yet you continue to torment him.

Have you considered going to therapy to find out why you would continually and persistently torment this man? I am absolutely baffled by your history and agree it does reflect a shocking lack of empathy.

Additionally, if you want your husband to trust your rendition of history, I would suggest you make an appointment for a polygraph and pass a test. That will go long way in earning his trust. Do you want to earn his trust?

Tormenting your husband is not doing anything wrong? What is wrong is it hurts your husband and you don't care. If your husband went out of his way to torment you, would you be saying the same thing? You have a serious lack of respect and empathy for your husband.

What you are saying is "I don't understand why I can't continue to torment my husband!" <------that is what you are saying.

The basic issue is that you have poor boundaries around men. You have placed your interactions with men ABOVE the feelings of your husband. You have sacrificed your husbands happiness and the health of your marriage for these "friendships." Why?

Like Dr Harley has noted, jealousy is a normal reaction to a threat to the marriage. Your lack of boundaries are a threat to him.

Read the articles here. Come back and ask us questions if you have them.

Quite honestly, I don't think I have ever seen a poster on this site who seems to feel as entitled as you do. It takes my breath away, that you are 50 years old and behave like a teenager who expects to have everything handed to you. You appear to have absolutely NO concept of partnership with your husband. I honestly thought initially that you were a 15 year old kid who was playing us, until you posted more than once.

Your entitlement continues to scream, since you can't 'possibly' respond to our posts. Are you undergoing an appendectomy? Kidney transplant? What? You had all the time in the world to totally bash your husband and whine about his perceived failings, and now you're suddenly just way too busy? Don't play us.

Cut bait or fish.

Read the articles here. Learn what you need to know to achieve a loving and mature marriage. Ask questions. We'll be happy to answer.

Flowergirl, I share his dim view of your marriage's future. Can you imagine living in a marriage with a spouse who purposely tormented you? And felt entitled to do so? I can't imagine tolerating such a thoughtless spouse.

Do you think your husband is happy?

Hey there flowergirl. As I read your initial post, I can see your frustrations. But, flowergirl, it is just not that simple. You have to CARE about your husbands feelings on everything. From what you wrote, you never cared enough about your husbands feelings to put his above your own and to stop doing these things. Your sense of entitlement is very evident. If you were single, but in a relationship with someone, they still wouldn't like these things you are doing. Your H may very well be annoying you, being controlling about these things, having angry outburst on these things. If you didn't continue them, you wouldn't be having to deal with his angry outburts. He needs to work on that! That said, what is it you expect of him when you ignore his most basic feelings and deepest fears? It is very difficult to continue to deal with someone repeatedly doing the things you are doing. He, many times, tried the mature way TO COMMUNICATE his feelings to you. You didn't want to listen. So, now, he is trying to get you to stop all these things by trying to control these things out of his life!! HE DOESN'T LIKE THEM IN HIS LIFE!!!! He KNOWS opposite sex friedships are a no-no. He learned the hard way. You didn't give his feelings any weight here, kept right on steam rolling over him doing it anyway.

What I don't see is your understanding of what a real marriage is supposed to be. It isn't just you in the marriage. Marriage isn't just about you and how you feel. What about him? You can't have independent behaviors in marriages. You are partners, ONE. Everything you say and do affects your spouse. You have to care about his feelings, every single one of them, do what it takes to fix any issue, and he has to do the same.

What you don't recognize is that you really have never had the right to ignore your H all these years about your opposite sex friendships. By ignoring him, you told him this whole time, that your marriage, your relationship with him wasn't as important to you as your need to continue to have opposite sex friends and receive whatever it is they provide you.

So, now can you see that your continuing to engage in opposite sex friendships, for WHATEVER reason, has crippled your marriage? Can you finally admit that your selfish entitlement has ALWAYS been at your husband's expense? You should think about that. Each and every time you ignored your husband's feelings and continued a friendship with another man, it took away from something you could give your husband and was at his expense.

These are hard lessons flowergirl. I hope you can get out of your own way and selfishness, put your husbands feelings before your own here, leave your frustrations at the door and see the bigger picture.

Instead of "thinking", download some of the FREE questionnaires available *** here *** .

Ask your H to be completely honest and fill in the love-busters questionnaire. You are making him miserable. You don't want him to be miserable, do you?

You admit you had an affair in your first marriage. You understand that this tells us (1) you have a history of allowing men outside of your marriage to meet your ENs [ex, conversation and admiration] and (2) you have a history of leading a Secret Second Life. An affair is not possible without these two things.

Outside of the fact that these two things make your current marriage very vulnerable to an affair they are very damaging in other ways. All of the below demonstrate that you have never given up these two habits(allowing other men to meet your ENs and having a SSL):












This is some of what Dr Harley says about a spouse with a history of having a SSL:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html



Sound familiar?

How has not being radically honest hurt your marriage?

Here's some examples:


Please read this thread for more on how lack of honesty hurts your marriage:

Conflict avoidance is the kiss of death

My xH was very similar to you, refusing to implement Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) that would prevent others from meeting his ENs. He didn't seem to understand what the problem was or why he kept doing this. This was written to him that I thought summed it up very well (especially the part emphasized in red).

I am curious as to what marriage looked like to you, back when you got engaged. It doesn't appear to be the same thing that it looked like to me when I married my late husband, because we put each other ahead of all other people and genuinely cared about each other's feelings and wanted the best marriage possible...and you know what? We got it.

It doesn't look like you cared about your husband's feelings or wanted the two of you to be closer than anything. What were you thinking?

You can have the best marriage possible, if you're willing to learn some new ways...start with proper boundaries, learn about each other's needs, quit lovebusting, learn and implement POJA. There is much material on this site, read and learn it. The best is yet to come...if you're willing.

After reading the many posts that I received I can't help but feel angry and confused by some of your responses. Some of you I feel were genuinely ready to listen, help and be supportive in helping me and others I feel were just posting to bash out their own anger and let me tell you you are wrong in doing this! You don't know me, my life's history nor do you know my husband or his life's history. To post and be judge and jury is wrong here. Is that the purpose of this site????

My husband has talked with me about some of these responses and says that some are really harsh and others mild and some truely want to help. I have mixed feelings about doing this open posting mainly because of the bashing and verbal scruitiny. This posting stuff is new to me and I can honestly say that if you want to discourage someone from continueing this posting and trying to seek help then some of you have accomplished that by your comments to me!
To others I thank you for trying to enlighten me and help and for giving me links that will help me to understand myself better and to try to help me with my marriage. My husband tells me today that he has given up.
You were only told a bit of our marrital problems and not the whole story so don't be so quick to judge me or throw sarcastic and cruel comments in my face. You don't know everything!
My husband found this website a few years ago and bought some of the books and was active in using this site. He has read a lot of the posts and materials from Marriage Builders. I did read some of the books and we even did phone counceling for a while but decided to end that.
I guess I have spent years of being angry at my husband for things that have happened in our marriage. I have learned to block a lot of those hurtful events from my mind so I can move on. I have not been able to understand why he cannot do the same.
I am hoping to find some help so that I can save my marriage. I'm not sure at this point that this discussion forum is the best way to get help though and quite honestly I am shocked that "Marriage Builder's" allow some of you people to even post.( I think your posts are very damaging to what is belived to be just the opposite of what "Marriage Builders" is based on.)
To kaycstamper: I am willing to learn some new ways... to start with proper boundaries, learn about each other's needs, & to quit lovebusting but I cannot do it alone. I will need my husband's participation too. How do I help my husband to forget what's happened in the past so that we can live for the present and plan for our future? Neither one of us are perfect. I am distraught at this point.

TheFlowergirl,

Why did you stop the MB counseling?

MB is all about staying in the present and planning for the future. If you know about the program, then you know it advocates extraordinary care for each other, eliminating lovebusters and meeting each other's emotional needs. The goal is a romantic, passionate relationship with your spouse for life.

First, do not harm each other. Eliminate the lovebusters of angry outbursts and independent behavior. Having opposite sex friends that make your H uncomfortable is an independent behavior. It makes him feel badly. Many of the previous posters have addressed this already.

Will you both start at the beginning with the program? Can you do the online program? What parts did you not do before?

AM

PS Usually, the posts that make someone bristle the most are the ones that hit too close to home and identify the problem to be addressed. So, pay particular attention to the posts that make you angry. They are probably identifying what needs to be changed first.

TheFlowerGirl, getting angry is not going to help. You are free to ignore some posters if you wish, although sometimes they are the ones who should be listened to the most.

You said, "how to help your husband forget what's happened the past...". That isn't the aim here. The aim is to acknowledge what has happened in the past and understand that those behaviours have HURT HIM, and then make proper boundaries to avoid repeating these behaviours in the future.

When these boundaries are in place ("extraordinary precautions") and he sees you actively abiding by/respecting those boundaries, then his resentment, over time, will dissipate and you can both feel safe and secure (continuing with those boundaries in place). However, you are not at that stage yet to expect him to forget the past, because right now he has no reason to feel protected. WHEN he feels protected, he can start to leave the past in the past.

What is Marriage Builders based on, in your opinion?

This works both ways. Just as you cannot make HIM forget the past, it is unrealistic (and damaging) for you to try and forget what has hurt YOU either.

Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html

**edit**

As it relates to helping your H forget the past, you, and only you, can be instrumental in doing it. You have to make him feel secure in everything you do that now makes him feel insecure. Others will point you to Dr. Harley's concept on that more easier than me, but read it.

And of course, your husband has to be on board too. You have issues with him obviously.

You can carry your end of things, and you will be surprised on what those are going to be. My W was very surprised too, but when "WE" started working on things such as Emotional Needs, Love Busters, Boundaries, they really did all start coming together. Yes, your H has to be on board.

**edit**

Yes forgiveness is what your looking for FG, but it can't be found until you have come to the place of true repentance, and your H has gotten over what was also truly painful to him in the past.

Actions speak louder than words I think you will agree, and men understand actions. It takes much time for us to forget what has been done to us, whether intended or not.

Yeah it's just not fair is it? It was his problem. You never intended to hurt him, but you didn't quite understand the nature of Man did you?

It's up to you, there are many ppl here who have been hurt by the ignorance of modern society and it's more's < sp>, and dark alleys of human understanding we all can fall victim to who have found a ray of light in DR Hs teachings, and pull no punches at bringing the truth to light. On the fast track of healing, there is one scripture I can quote that maybe can help you understand how this place works, when you take some of the reactions personal. Not a bible thumper, but these truths are universal and there is a reason they are quoted.
"The kisses of an Enemy are deceitful, and the wounds of a friend are faithful".

I implore you to continue to learn about people and human nature, and take possession of your part of your marriage, as co-keeper of your husbands emotional well being. That's what I believe the questions were aimed at when you were asked about what you believed marriage would be like years ago

Yeah your a marked woman, having had poor relationship boundaries, and being human, falling for the the belief it should be easy. Your a target for every guy wanting a shoulder to cry on

Marriage is no joke, nor is it easy, there are way to many posters here who have been screwed over by even themselves and thier own misunderstanding of what it means to be married.

Understand that your Husband is approaching the age where his body chemistry is changing, and time is short for him to get peace with the past.
You have yet to admit that your behavior hurt him, or that he even had a natural God given right to feel like he did, from what I gather, most of his life.

Keep reading here and learning, your a smart one, you'll get it

It's not about just you or how you feel, it's about how you both feel, and the road you both travel to understanding.

Apologies don't mean anything when you continue the bad behavior. Your promises are empty words...how many times did your husband find you in lies of omission? He would be a fool to believe you since you have PROVEN that your promises mean nothing. Oops...ya forgot to tell him about this, that and the other...AGAIN!!!


And he is right if he wants a healthy, fulfilling, loving marriage vs one with a deceptive spouse that is giving him anxiety attacks and disregards him. Your level of thoughtlessness towards your husband is disturbung.

We stopped MB because the phone counceling was not convenient times for both of us and I didnt feel that it was helping. My husband has a history of anger issues and his temper was not changing. We have been married for 14 years and only 3 years ago did he start getting help with his anger mngt.
We both have had independant counceling as well as marriage counceling and marriage counceling seems to only make him more angry. It keeps him stirred.
And yes, I have acknowledged what has happened and have expressed to him many times that I am sorry that it has caused him so much pain but it doesn't go away and nothing seems to change no matter what I do or what I try to do. It is constantly brought up and it has been years past.
I cant seem to say the right things or get through to him no matter how hard I try. We are so opposite and yet I do still love him. I just don't understand him and his thinking. There has been so many years of damaging things that we have gone through in our marriage and we both are very brittle. He says I havent tried but I have. I've been open to everything he has suggested. Counceling, marriage counceling etc. We have hit rock bottom. I feel that it's a haunting nightmare that reoccurs everyday and it keeps both of us unhappy and very miserable. I can't change the past and what that has done to hurt him nor can he change his past and what he has done that has hurt me. We can change how we behave now and move forward but that is my thinking. I can't keep going backwards when I'm trying to move forward. It's such a struggle.

A reminder to posters to let the moderators do the moderating. If you have an issue with a post, please notify us rather than lecture other posters about their posting style. That is inappropriate and disruptive. Let the moderators do the moderating. Thank you.

Flowergirl. I am your husband from what you have explained. I could not get rid of the past either in many respects. Trust me when I say you are doing something that 'for him' is making it not go away. Other here are more familiar with where to send you to read up on it. I hear that you are trying, but you are apparently not doing it right. Listen hear and read.

Since you are going to ignore my question about the basis of MB .... Allow me to assist.

It's his LOVE BANK that you need to pay attention to. Not yours.

The basis for MB is the LOVE BANK.
You fill his love bank by meeting his intimate ENs the way he wants them met.
You avoid making love bank withdrawals by avoiding LOVE BUSTERS.

Remember, I asked you to down load the FREE questionnaires !!!!!!

Hint #1:

You are not making love bank deposits when you try to "say the right things" or "get through to him".

It's not working! By your own admission, it's NOT working.
So, do something completely different.
What should you do?
You'd know if you'd bothered to do the questionnaires, as advised.

Take care.

Can you describe the anger? Is it an "angry outburst" (AO) as Dr. Harley would describe, or is it a complaint/getting upset at continued behaviours that make him feel unprotected/insecure? There is a difference, one that wayward wives often gloss over.

If it is an actual AO, has this improvement come after you discontinued phone counseling? Or has the AOs not been dealt with via MarriageBuilders?

TFG. It is nice to see you posted again. I am speaking for myself, but probably for others too. I know a lot of these posts had to be VERY hard to read b/c it they were SO straight forward. We don't know you or what he has done to you that you have had to deal with. We were responding to you, your writing, your post by what we read. I was not trying to just slam you or take out my anger on you!! I read a lot of anger, excuses, ignoring of your H's feelings in your post. The truth is hard to hear. I hated it too!! I want to ask you to PLEASE look again at what was written with out any pride or ego and just try to see the truth where there is truth. It is probably the most difficult thing to admit those faults in yourself, but if YOU can see them, own them and decide that you don't want to act in those behaviors anymore, then YOU will be on the journey of becoming the BEST YOU that you can be!!! We all get resentful, act out of that until we learn better. That is where I am now. I love the quote, "When you know better, you do better." We know that there are two sides to every story. I hope you see that those here ALSO know that by the evidence you presented, you have some boundary issues. It is also very perplexing that you would ever put yourself in the position of having ANY familiarity AT ALL with another man. That is EXACTLY how affairs start. Friends, until that friendship turns into something else. Those here WANT YOU TO SEE, that if you give any time and attention to another man, even if it is innocent, they can easily meet EN's that your H isn't. It is a VERY slippery slope. You know that since you made the mistake before. I knew even before MB's, not to be open, familiar or have friendships of any kind with another man. So, please don't stay in any denial on this fact. Anyway, you were hurting your H more than you knew or wanted to know. The goal here it to save your marriage, right? It stings to have harsh truths told to you, but you did seem to be oblivious to how you sounded and how much these things have hurt your H. over the years. You have to see that, own it and change it. If you do, your marriage will be better for it! If we were wrong on some things, I am sorry for that. I do believe that given some time and true open honesty on your part in owning these things, you will look back and be glad that people here that don't know you, were caring enough to take their time to help you see where you can begin.

I am sorry you feel distraught, I realize you are in quite a situation. I don't see any posters here whose desire is to bash you, but rather want you to truly "get it". You can't affect a difference until you understand what has gone wrong and your part in it. It's true we don't know all of your history the last 14 years, but it's up to you to let us know of anything pertinent. We can only respond to what you let us know, and that has been the basis for our posts.

You can't "make" your husband anything. You can't make him forgive, can't make him change, can't make him love you, can't...well, you get the picture. All you can do is work on yourself and take with you the lessons learned.

Personally, I would start with prayer, because only God can soften hearts, but you have to understand, God and your husband are not obligated to do anything with regards to this situation, it was of your making and sometimes we just have to live with the consequences, ALL of us. Anything less than that is purely grace that we don't deserve and certainly can't expect or count on.

If you feel any of us are bashing you, please notify the moderator or block us. You're right, you don't have to listen to anything any of us say. But consider the words of a couple of posters here that have told you that sometimes the truth strikes home and is painful, yet it's the truth that empowers us to learn and change.

The beauty of the MB approach is its universality. It works over the full range of marital situations. The resources are all here, at your fingertips. Stop thinking that you need to reinvent a totally new approach to address your particular situation. Educate yourself and then apply these methods. This is what your husband wants, or he wouldn't send you here. If you do, the time will come when you will look back on your first post and say to yourself "I can't believe I defended opposite-sex friendships".

MB posters... or TheFlowerGirl please feel free to tell me to stay off this thread. I am TheFlowerGirl's husband. I have come to a point where I literally feel nothing emotionally. In desperation I pointed my wife here when she told me I was threatening her by saying I wanted to leave the marriage because I was not safe. I guess here is what I would want to say... I will gladly create my own thread if this is what I am supposed to do. I will never read this my wife's thread if this is what I am supposed to do and I keep my word.
TheFlowerGirl is the most wonderful mother you would ever know in your life. She is the finest neighbor, co-worker, student and friend anyone could ever have. She is very beautiful.
Truthfully, as a wife, she I am sure will make someone she loves and cares about feel wonderful. I have come to the conclusion that I never was and never will be that person. The story Gone With The Wind comes to mind but many of you will not know what I am talking about with that characterization. But I am right there "Frankly Scarlet......."
She is sensitive (as you can see above...), very sensitive and years of me raising my voice to try and make a point took their toll on her. It never worked. If anything it did the opposite of what I hoped for. That is exactly what angry outbursts do. Likewise, years of me living in agony over her choices has left me emotionless and that is extremely scary and I am far beyond being afraid. I live in terror. And I have. Only the realization that I was going to die if I continued to live in this circumstance brought me to realize that I have to either mandate change or leave our marital home. I have resisted Plan B because long ago in this situation Steve H recommended that I not and because of our 13 year old son. And the posts about Men don't leave your home on this board also held me down.
Folks, I have plan A'd for so long what I really did was continue a pattern of enabling (sp?). I can't do it anymore. In my opinion only, Counseling with Steve H failed because my wife stated that she felt she got nothing out of it. I think counseling fails according to MB as long as the outside of marriage ea's continue. But I Could be wrong too.
I am 100% responsible for my pattern of verbal angry outbursts in our marriage. Some of you here might not have thought they were out of the ordinary, but TheFlowerGirl is very gentle and is easily traumatized by shouting, or confrontation and I knew those things and did it anyway for years. I have worked for three years in therapy and with a private group to eliminate the pattern and habit. I have made a change and I know it shows but I also can accept if it is too late for TheFlowerGirl.
If I do anything (such as saying I can't live in this marriage this way anymore)that expresses the honest truth, I become the bad guy.
Recently if finally hit me that (1) I have been receiving tremendous mental abuse over this issue of opposite sex friendships (or EA's) for years and (2) that I have been accepting blame for getting frustrated and shouting about it when in many instances I was often the victim. And I refuse to be a victim any longer. I will not be martyr in a marriage where I give up my abiity to feel safe in a bad trade for a hope that I will be loved any longer. I am going to survive this with or without TheFlowerGirl.
Be gentle with her. She can't hear if she is hit over the head. I assure you, I tried that tactic verbally for years and failed. Her self defenses are way to strong.
You guys and gals here were my last hope.
sincerely

ReadyAbout

("Ready about" is the command given on an old sailing ship right before it changes tacks or direction.... hopefully the analogy is obcvious).

Me: 57
Her:51
Ours:13

Welcome ReadyAbout!

I suggest you start your own separate thread for now, and we can all work together. You both are in a position to have a good marriage, it will just take the time and work.

Good !!

Rock bottom in an extremely unhealthy marriage is good. Only place you can go is up now.

Want to learn how to rebuild the right way?

Hi ReadyAbout, welcome to Marriage Builders. I can fully understand your desperation if you have been dealing with this for almost your entire marriage. It must be very hurtful when your spouse continues behavior she knows is hurtful. That means it is being done purposefully.

In the articles you have seen advising men not to leave their homes, that does not mean forever. Obviously, if you choose to divorce or separate, you would have to move. And keep in mind that Dr Harley does not believe in staying in loveless, abusive marriages. When a spouse refuses to stop hurting you and refuses to meet your needs, you are not obliged to stay in that marriage and continue to be abused.

I found this quote from Dr Harley that you might find helpful:

I hope your wife does make a decision to change, but if she doesn't, you have other options available and do not have to stay in a marriage with a spouse who treats you so badly.

The last thing I heard before getting hit in the head by the boom.

All the tools for both of you are here.

TFG, if well-aimed 2x4's cause you to cut and run, you aren't ready to grow up and be a loving, fulfilled, protected and protective wife who is deeply in love with her husband.

The path to recovery is a narrow one, but well worth the work and effort! Some of the people whose posts you resent the most are the ones who are the happiest and best recovered. All of us would like to see you and your husband succeed.

Hang around, and you'll soon realize that what looks to you like anger and bitterness, is in fact love and care for a complete stranger.

Except you're not a stranger, not really. We know you because we've walked through your story, either as you or your husband. We've been in your shoes, or his shoes.

In this way, you're not as special and different as you think, and that's a good thing. It's why MB can work in any M, because the same formula works in every country on earth, and in any culture.

Whatever things your husband did, even if they were TERRIBLE, mean nothing when it comes to you changing your behavior. You can't stop him from doing anything, and you can't change the past. All you can do is start right now to change your own behavior, regardless of what he does now, or has done in the past. That's where you start, not even with well-justified complaints about what you've been through. You start with you, and start with the present.

Stop it RA. You are still enabling your WW. She is a big girl...stop with the excuses.


No one is verbally abusing your WW or having AOs towards her.



Then stand back. She has already run over you enough.

Welcome to MB.

x 2

MelodyLane and other posters. I will begin a thread of my own.
Entitled "Nobody Wins" and I will copy and paste my previous post on this thread there.

Thank you.

Hi FlowerGirl, I'm fairly new to these forums (few months), mostly interested in MB 101 and After Divorce. I had never visited the Surviving an Affair forum, but out of curiosity I did today, and yours was the first (and so far only) post I've read. I don't have enough experience to give you detailed advice, but I will tell you a bit about my story that might give you some perspective.

When I was married, my xW exhibited inappropriate boundaries with other men. At the time, I wasn't aware of the concept of boundaries and have only learned that term since I've been exploring this website. I did not like her relationships with other men, which were work-related, but I didn't know how to justify my feelings to her. Her argument was that I didn't trust her. Since I had no words to defend myself, my thinking was cast in terms of her argument. "Why didn't I trust her," I thought, "what's wrong with me?" I tried to convince myself that I should trust her and not be upset by her interactions with other men, but I couldn't get the feeling that I didn't like what she was doing to go away. The fact is, I DID trust her, but I still didn't want her interacting with other men the way she did, and I didn't know how to explain that.

(Fast forward many years) In counseling during the initial stages of divorce recovery, my therapist wanted to help me make sense of what happened in my failed marriage. When we talked about my feelings concerning my xW and other men, I brought up what I just wrote to you, that I didn't know how to make sense of my trusting her while at the same time not wanting her to be so friendly with other men. My therapist helped me understand that what hurt me the most, was that my xW didn't care about my feelings. When I unearthed that sentiment, it was "eureka!" My therapist had hit the nail on the head. The feeling that my xW didn't care about my feelings was incredibly damaging to my psychological state, and I eventually checked out emotionally from my marriage, which it sounds like your husband either has done or is in the process of doing.

Several posters in your thread have said this very thing to you, that by having interactions with other men that you know your husband is uncomfortable with, you are dismissing his feelings. As I've recently learned since discovering this webiste, the care of each other's feelings is one of the core components of Marriage Builders philosophy. If you want to have a great marriage, you must put each others feelings at the forefront of your attention. You must recognize that pretty much everything you do will affect your spouse either positively or negatively. If you think in terms of "what I want" or "why can't I do such and such," you're not thinking about your spouse.

It sounds like your husband has issues too which he'll need to work on, and it sounds like he has started. My only piece of advice to you is to realize that your actions, innocent as they may seem, can wreak havoc with your husband's emotions. I wish you the best as you work to restore your marriage.

"Wild horses could not run off a wayward who was serious about recovery." --Melodylane

Much less a bunch of anonymous posters on a marriage board.

Getting lots of info here, and like many first time posters, you will have to go back and reread it all as you take the time to figure out what has been said.

Sounds like you H loves and respects you very much,(yeah RA,get your own thread), and we can see your sensitivity and inteligence from the beginning.

Would it be too much to say this is part of the human package? That it takes more to develop deep meaningful lifelong relationships?

Someone said, "When you know better you will do better"

How about putting that sensitivity to work for you and your husband

A short story from my past when I was really messed up from my first marrige at 18, when 1st wife also fell victim to male "freinds", outside marriage
I too stayed and insisted I would trust her. She was young, and I thought it would pass along with my emotions about it. The marriage ended at my insistence after she left me and my 1st son for an affair, and got knocked up by some guy at a party, and had a child by him. I tried to save the marriage but she continued to have wrong relationships, and started telling me I was, "Too seriuos", and didn't like to have "fun"

A couple of months after separation, and this is the point BTW, that I bring this up...
I was at a friends house, and feeling bad cause I was just too sensitive, when somebody called me a "headcase". My immediate reply was, " Well you've got to have a head on your shoulders for it to be a case"

My quick wit and sensitivity might have made me intelligent, but without proper guidance I went on to make the mistakes that led to another marriage full of misconceptions and different problems.

Your H has told us you were smart and sensitive, and he wants the best for you.

God is he an enabler

Time to put that smart and sensitive brain to work on what is most important in your life

If it's not your Husband and marriage, what then?

Figure out what you want, this site helps marriages,and carreers, public appearance, all fall second place, as you will find as you absorb what is written here

Your husband is not a quitter, he is just plain tired of fighting a losing battle

Clean up your side of this marriage.
Do not be the source of his pain.

Welcome to MB, KeepLearning.

You must have missed this:

"I will ashamedly tell you that I became involved with this ex-lover while I was married to my first husband. I left my first husband and divorced while in a relationship with this man. My fianc� was aware of this history. Despite a near break up after this incident."


She cheated on her first husband with the x-lover. This is not 'actions innocent as they may seem'. Quite the contrary. Her H has every reason to feel the way he feels.

To BlackRaven: Excuse me but who do you think you are? You dont know anything about me and your comments show me just how uneducated you are! Trying to tell me that I am not grown up enough to love.??!! *And your comment to my h that I have already ran over him enough? * Oh... feed the fury!(Don't even go there!)My spouse has had what you call EA's too. People like you have no business giving others advise. You are not on here to help, you evidently have been burned and you are a bad example of helping others if you want to call it that! Why are you on here anyway????? You don't know anything about my marriage! And no, if it appears to you and others that I have continued to have opposite sex friends for 14 years then you are wrong. You have been mislead. I wont go any further than that. I will find help elsewhere in Marriage Builders. I don't find this helpful. I recognize what I have done wrong in the past but you all dont know anything about my spouse either. If you think that the A outbursts for 15 years have been about EA's you are all wrong again. The AO's could be over anything! Enough said. IT's too painful to go into all of it.

Flower Girl,
Again, we know what you have told us, it's up to you to give us pertinent information so we can make informed responses. Raven has helped a lot of people on this forum. It sounds like if someone doesn't agree with you and feel sorry for you, you get defensive instead of listening to what they have to say. That's your call, you can learn and recover your marriage...or not. Like I said before, you can notify a moderator if you think you're being bashed. We don't see it that way, we look at it as "telling it like it is."

Do not correct a scoffer, lest he hate you; Rebuke a wise man, and he will love you. Proverbs 9:8 Which are you? I'm not trying to get smart, I'm wanting you to contemplate that.

What exactly in Blackraven's posts has brought on this angry outburst? I read through her comments and see nothing disagreeable. What exactly has set you off?

Do you not understand how upsetting your poor boundaries with men is to your husband? It sounds to me like he has been telling you this for YEARS. And it has never stopped.

If he has stopped his angry outbursts, why would you not stop your abusive and thoughtless behavior?

This is a very interesting thread. I see many here trying to tell FlowerGirl what they wished they could convey to their ex-spouses when they were treated poorly. What could have saved their marriages.

FlowerGirl, some of this stuff hurts, and I suspect you feel attacked (because that is what my wife would feel), but if you can get through that reaction and listen you can save your marriage.

In the spirit of trying to help you see how your husband feels allow me to give you a little of my history:

My wife doesn't have very good boundaries with other men. She ended up talking to an old friend and hiding it from me (this is the only requirement for an inappropriate relationship). After a while this grew and they ended up having an affair. Obviously my trust was broken and I was really angry/sad about the situation.

After the affair she realized what she did was wrong, and wanted to work it out with me. I was really happy that she realized that the other relationship was a fairy tale and that it was destroying everybody involved. I wanted to forgive her and move on and would have done anything to make that happen, but she continued to have poor boundaries with other men. She would have them on her facebook page, talk to guys that hit on her, and even complain about me to one of them.

I asked that she block them and put boundaries in place, but she told me that she needed the freedom to do whatever she wanted and that I was controlling. Our day to day interactions deteriorated. She signed up for college and started spending a lot of time away from home. At one point my brother drove past her in the car with another man. She insisted it was just a study partner, and while I believed her, I was still very angry and hurt that she had such little regard for my feelings, especially after what she did.

I wanted her to slow down on college and spend more time together to try and build some trust and take care of our hurting children that were in the middle of our whirlwind. She refused. She said that she needed to get out and make something of herself and again, that I was controlling.

Now we are divorcing. She thinks it's because I couldn't trust her and because I want to control her. She tells me that if I would just stop being critical and controlling that we would have been fine.

Here is the point. It's not about me controlling her, or what she does. The thing that killed our relationship wasn't the affair, it was that she did some extremely hurtful things, then continued to act very independent even though I had no trust, which again was very hurtful. I tried for a year to help her understand that what I needed was for her to care about my feelings and change some things that would allow the past to fade, but she was too busy being right and doing what she wanted.

Now, she has the right to do what she wants, but I also have the right to not put up with it and leave. I'll never be happy with someone that refuses to even acknowledge the fact that their actions hurt others.

From what I can tell, Flowergirl, you are in the same situation. Your husband WILL get over the past, but only if you make changes to gain his trust. If someone says nice hair on facebook you have a choice. You can protect the posters feelings and not tell him that you aren't interested in complements, or you can protect your husbands feelings and send him a private message saying thanks but no thanks, please don't post on my wall again.

If you keep shutting down other men, stop talking to other men, and respecting your husband as someone who has feelings, then things will change.

If the problem is that your husband is just crazy, rather than you just have poor boundaries, why would you torment a crazy person?

It seems to me that the answer would be to STOP having opposite sex friendships if it torments your "crazy" husband.

Do you get some type of enjoyment out of tormenting crazy people?

Would you agree to stop tormenting your crazy husband if it would save your marriage? Because it appears that your husband is quite done with being tormented.

Am not sure what you're referring to, please use the quotes.

And nope, I told him all I needed to. I'm telling her what SHE needs to hear.

Hi, FlowerGirl - I hope you are not gone yet :-) I almost never post here, but decided to log on to reply to this one, as I think I can empathize with you. I used to get angry at my husband (then boyfriend) because I saw him as being overly jealous, possessive and controlling. He used to have daily nightmares about me and other guys and certain triggers would send him into a deep depression for days. As I never cheated on him physically or emotionally, I thought this was ungrounded and it drove me crazy. Today my husband is a changed man, and we are extremely happily married, but it didn't happen without effort.

When my husband got to know me, I was just out of a two year sexual on-off relationship with someone I never should have been involved with in the first place. I didn't realize that I kept going back to my ex solely because of my bad boundaries. I was also an addict to an online messaging board where I saw it as a bit of a hobby to "innocently" flirt with people (I always made it very clear to the guys that I wasn't serious,so I felt there was nothing wrong with what I was doing).

Lastly, there was a married man, a older family friend of my parents' who used to stop by at the shop where I worked for a cup of coffee. As I was good friends with his wife, I never saw any harm in it, even if he sometimes confided in me. I was shocked when this married man showed up drunk at my apartment a year later, to profess his great love to me. It angered me and I refused to break the friendship with this wife and family and decided not to tell anyone, as it would destroy the family friendship and it was not my fault after all... I was never interested in this man.

My now husband knew about all of these things and every time he encountered one of these guys, he would have nightmares of me sleeping with them. I mean, I never even had ANYTHING sexual with the married guy, so I saw his dreams as lies and felt his feelings were irrelevant, as I was innocent. Even me laughing over the phone with someone triggered him and I got sooooo frustrated as he wasn't even in the picture when all those things happened, so why should my past affect him?

To me it felt like the person I loved most in the world always thought the worst of me. I always accused him of thinking I am a b*tch, while I felt he should trust me. I would never cheat on him, and he should know that. My sisters and family also thought my husband was overly paranoid, especially with regards to the married man, and my husband caught me trash talking about him to them.

He also caught me talking about his jealousy to a male facebook friend, and immediately saw it as me cheating, while I did not agree with him, and kept replying that I am sorry I hurt him, but I haven't done anything wrong. I was in distress and was looking for advice (obviously the other guy told me to dump my husband). It didn't help much that my sister later started to date this guy...

My husband was so depressed and hurt, that in my frustration, I ended up taking a lot of extraordinary precautions to prove to him I can be trusted, without even realizing it.
* I broke all contact with previous male friends
* I deleted the instant messaging service
* I deleted all non-relative male facebook contacts and still ignore any friend requests from males.
* I asked my ex never to come close to the shop again
* I told the wife of the married man everything and broke all contact with their family (to great disgust of my own family members, who still maintain the friendship and use their place as a venue for important birthdays, which we then just refuse to attend)
* I don't discuss our marital problems (which we don't have anymore) with anybody but my husband
* We moved 1000 miles away from my hometown where my ex and the married man live, which also means 1000 miles away from my parents.
* I try to avoid alone conversations with other men, and keep telling the world what an awesome husband I have.
* My facebook and email accounts are always open for my husband to view, as well as my mobile phone as I have nothing to hide, and I want to make sure he knows it.

Today I have the happiest, most trusting husband in the world, even though my job involves a lot of contact with other people. I can hardly believe that there was a time when both my husband and I felt semi-suicidal due to fights about me being too friendly with other men.

Again, I am TFG's husband. I had an EA in my first marriage. I did not realize that is what I did until I came here. I developed feelings for someone. I did not act on them but I didn't think there was anyting wrong with having a "friend." I was wrong. I never needed a "friend" when I entered this marriage. When contacted by this woman during my marriage to flowergirl I told FlowerGirl about it right away, I answered a work related business question and then told this friend that my wife would not be comfortable with me talking or writing to her. No more contact. I had read Dr. Harley by then.
I have had no EA in this marriage. Not even close. I did once have a woman who worked for me who was a friend of TheFlowerGirl make an advance at me at work. In fact she intimated that TheFlowerGirl was involved with someone in the process. I brushed off the advance and actually changed the reporting relationship of the woman involved so that I did not have to deal with her. I did not tell my wife about this advance that I brushed off until three years ago when I read Dr. H. Two years ago I had a woman who worked for me try and bring me her personal problems. I sent her to personnel and they arranged counseling and I refuse to have any kind of relationship with people at work or elsewhere. I manage people for a living and refuse to have a meeting in my office with a woman alone, I don't have lunch with anyone and have never so much as had coffee alone with anyone. I do not attend after hours events etc. So no, I categorically deny any attempt to suggest that I have had an EA during this marriage. Why would I lie? I have already admitted to verbal abuse which is a far worse issue.
In fact I find this comment from TFG a typical ticking bomb set for me to explode over. I won't.
I know it is called misdirection. And this last post was a blatant mistruth.
Folks, as I said.... This was my last hope. I am not asking for sympathy.
BUt it is obvious that It isn't worth your effort and sadly just as I have been saying... it isn't worth mine anymore either.

Me: 57
She:51
DS:13

This is puzzling to me, dec. Can you not find the articles and concepts on this site?

Chobitz,
Thank you for sharing your story. It sounds like you have employed the EP necessary for your marriage, and what a great outcome you have as a result! I hope TFG is still reading and reads your story. All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful; all things are lawful for me, but not all things edify. 1 Corinthians 10:23
IOW, we can selfishly adhere to our "rights" but the BETTER thing would be to make the other person feel and be safe, and that will generate the better outcome as well.

We all have a "right" to make our spouse's life a living hell, and our spouse has the right to leave.

Welcome RA. Please strat your own thread.

Flowergirl, your behaviour has bust his lovebank down to zero. You are in JUST the right place to learn how to build it back up again.

The problem is your husband stayed with you when you continued to bond with other men emotionally. MB would have advised him to separate so as to avoid AOs at your behaviour, and to avoid losing the feeling of love for you as he watched you bond with other men.

Dr H is very intolerant of AOs and tells BSs to control themselves short term, negotiate and if all else fails to separate so they don't lose control while suffering infidelity.

The good news is that if you start paying him compensation for that painful time, it can be undone and his love renewed.

The first thing he needs is for all the male friends to go.

Then he needs openness and transparency from you so his shaken faith in you is restored. You have hidden things and had EAs. Scheduling a poly will show that you have stopped hiding things and that you are now an open book.

Great post, Indie!

Thanks, KayC :-) Back then it felt like a sacrifice, and that I was losing my identity as a sociable, friendly person, but today I see that my husband was actually saving me from myself and my own bad boundaries.

Sometimes it's hard to see when you're in it.

TheFlowerGirl, you came here to get help saving your marriage. Did you think that we were going to tell you that everything that you have been doing was perfect, and your H had to change? Did you expect us to NOT point out where YOU could improve, if saving your marriage is truly your goal? Did you think this was going to be easy? This is HARD WORK.

Now, with the past marriages, BOTH of you were guilty of having affairs. You, however, are the one who is guilty of having EAs in THIS marriage, and the MANY posters on this thread have been expressing to you that your MINDSET is what needs changing. You need to understand that these past "relationships" that you have been having with these men, outside of your marriage, have been VERY inappropriate. You need to clean up your side of the fence, even if this marriage ends. If you continue to look at these "relationships" with men as okay, any future relationships will be just as doomed as this one.

I'm me last I looked.


I do know something about you...you wrote it!


I didn't say that to you. I agreed with the comment that another poster made and that is not what she said either. It is obvious that you are too angry and defensive that you can't even read the posts correctly much less hear what posters are telling you...unless they are what you want to hear.


Considering he's at the end of his rope and ready to divorce you, I think that is a simple truth.


You are the only one getting fired up.


Then he would be wrong for that if that is the case. Will take it up with him.


People like me? Hmmmmm

Funny how I can't know anything about you and your marriage (even though you posted about it) yet you somehow know me...interesting.

There is a feature to put a poster on ignore. Feel free to put me on ignore since you don't like looking in the mirror.


I know what you posted about it...as well as what your BH posted.


Mislead by who. Mislead by your own words????


Good luck.

Hi, FG.

I replied to you with some somewhat-specific suggestions. You don't seem to have had any reaction to any of them.

Look: I'm not the one of us with the messed-up marriage. I'm not the one starting from a point of self-denial about whether I've had an affair. (I sure was once, but I learned how to keep my mouth shut & my eyes open long enough to learn a thing or two.)

If you aren't interested in benefitting from that experience, that's no skin off my nose, but I think it would be too bad.

Speaking of skin, I learned that it takes a thick skin from both spouses in order for a couple to recover a marriage; and you haven't got it. (That's not a put-down, by the way, it's just an observation, borne out by your own reaction to the many helpful posts you've gotten.)

Recovering a marriage is hard. One has to be able to look in the mirror & see some unpleasant aspects of one's self, and then resolve to tackle them -- not try to distract from your issues by pointing out your spouse's shortcomings (however real & in need of addressing they may be), or by criticizing someone who's pointed out your own.

Unless you have questions for me, one-wayward-to-a-former-wayward, I won't trouble your thread any more. I do wish you & your husband luck.

:::snort::: BR, I am encouraged that you continue to help FlowerGirl - she doesn't know the gem she has in you.

I'm me last I looked...ROFL!

Well there has been plenty for TFG to read, along with the rest of the forum, and to note, Dr H has much experience and has had much succsess in marriage building.

It doesn't just happen, you have to build it, care for it, and it takes time.


Keep reading and learning TFG, and RA get away from her thread, she will get pizzed and react. But in the end, it will be about her and her relationships that are healthy.

Give up allready if that's what you want to do. We will back you but we would rather support reconciliation..

From your thread

Wow. Just wow.

So your version of marriage is working out for ya? So well that you couldn't possibly change it for the better?

You remind me of the story of Naaman. Healing from the leprosy that was killing was within his grasp, and he almost didn't take it. It required that he give up his preconceived notions, humble his pride, and do what somebody he hadn't met and didn't like suggested that he do.

You can have a good shot at a happy ending, too.

1. Stop trying to divert and blameshift away from your cruelty to your husband.
2. Whether you agree with the concept or not at this point, change your behavior so that you are keeping all men but AR at a great distance.
3. Learn what the other top Love Busters are that you commit, and stop them immediately. Even if you don't think they're important.
3. Learn what his top emotional needs (EN's) are, and meet them whether you feel like it or not, and whether you think they're important or not.
4. Keep reading and learning. Be teachable. Even when it's uncomfortable or even painful.

There it is, your chance at a happy marriage. None of us can stop you from continuing your destructive course. What we can do is advise you of things you can try that will turn you a different direction than the one you're going. You're headed straight for a divorce, and snapping and biting at the people who are trying to flag you down and get you turned around.

Your method straight-up hasn't worked. You have failed.

Aren't you ready to try something new?

That one actually made me chuckle as well.

TFG, this will be the only post I make to you because it's pretty obvious your skin is quite wafer thin and you really aren't at all serious about this. Seems to me your being here is nothing more than an appeasement to prolong whatever financial benefits you may gain from doing so. I have zero confidence that you are sincere with what you are doing, posting, and living.

Just what the hell do you want out of this board, and more importantly, your life in general?

What do you want? Seriously, how do you see your life proceeding from this moment forward?

Who is RA, CP? Did I miss a post?

RA=Rightabout her H.

I too was somewhay at a loss to define TFG's reason for coming here, so I went back to her opening note.

My daughter and SIL are marathoners. I heard them refer to a supposed fellow racer as a "Tee & Flee", so I asked them what that meant. A "Tee & Flee" is someone who signs up, and pays for the race, registers the morning of the event, and LEAVES after getting the highly decorated tee-shirt saying, "I survived the Podunk Classic Marathon!" They get to wear that shirt to the gym the entire next year, to the awe and wonderment of their peers, without the expenditure of sweat and effort.

TFG's first words to us were: I am here at the request (coersion?) of my husband.

The translation is: "I got the shirt! See ya!"

Yeah she is not interested in recovery, she doesn't even realize she is sick

It's all fine if we are nice and polite and cheering and smoochie poochie cutesy woo woo, but when the possibility of her doing some wrong even gets mentioned, watch out, both barrels, gone.

There's plenty to read and learn both on her thread and in MB as a whole. Balls in her court, or Tee-shirts in her gym bag

Lol NG, Tee and flee, good comparison

Two men are making their way through the jungle when they come upon a river of excrement. Having no way to go but forward, one man volunteers to go first. The second closes his eyes and waits for word.

"Well, how bad is it?"

"Not too bad, it only got up to my ankles!"

Eyes still closed, the second man jumps in, and immediately sinks to his chin.

"I thought you said it only got to your ANKLES!"


"Yeah, but I dove in HEAD FIRST!"



------


Definitely hard to see it while you are in it....

X2

Enabling is not being loving.

Yeah funny, the story somewhat reminds me of what I appeared to see in my late wife
Beautiful, personable, communicative, intelligent, but add to that, spiritual.

Now that NG brought up that phrase, I remember my daughter mentioning it when she helped sponser running events for charity.

Yeah all about vanity it is, how we look on the outside.

Yeah too thin skinned exactly

And RA, still reacting the same as he did during his engagement party, protecting his poor flower. I can imagine him living on edge, pacing the floor, as she reads the posts and reacts to them negatively, and finally comes to his damsels rescue...

Yeah we just don't understand...so he jumps on and try's to control the situation, further enabling her in her fantasy that she is blameless

The issue is as old as time itself, we have all seen it many times, and proper EPs could have prevented so much of it

Just like me, who in fear of losing such a wonderful beautiful spiritual personable, communicable, spiritual, and of course, misunderstood by the whole big mean world, enabled her by loving her anyways.

Sorry RA, she's all show. I'll look for your thread.

(I of course expect her to come here and call "unfair!!", because I DID say to take her time, read, then respond. Now I am being critical. But the world isn't gonna wait for her to get a thick skin, they are gonna eat her alive)

Hi Flower Girl!

Your husband speaks very highly of your gardening skills -- to the point where I must confess to a wee bit of jealousy. The most beautiful garden in a development of 400 homes ... wow.

Did you know before this how very proud he is of your skill? Sometimes we forget to tell our spouses the things we admire -- and sometimes we don't hear it when they say it cuz we are intent on hearing something else or we just aren't tuned in.

Can you tell us some stuff you admire about your husband? Sometimes it helps to get the yellow pad out and list it out. We forget in the business of life and before you know it our spouses turn from partners into impediments -- we want what we want when we want it!

"I WILL have my gazebo -- why does he care? I'm not bothering him because I got the guy across the street to help....besides he knows how important gardening is to me and if he cared anything about me at all he would WANT me to have my gazebo so obviously he doesn't care about me so I may as all make myself happy by putting up my gazebo."

I have a gazebo or two or ten or two hundred in my history....would you be willing to consider that that conversation could end differently with your husband excited about building the gazebo with you?

So, as you may have gathered, I LOVE to garden (400 homes ...... harrumph). I've only been doing it a few years and I have a lot to learn so I plant and watch.

One of the things I've been studying is pruning-- I love roses and from what I can gather, the angle at which you prune them and where you prune them determines how many blooms you get. How cool is that?

As I said, I'm still learning so sometimes I'll sit my bottom on the ground and really study a plant for a while, then take a walk and come back and study it some more before I bring out my pruning shears.

I've learned that what I cut away has a huge impact on the health and vigor of the plant. If I leave it alone, it will grow wildly and get all stalky on me -- and we both know what happens when plants get stalky --and refuse to bloom because all of its life energy is dedicated to growing in the direction it wants to grow.

Before you know it, it's a wild, tangled overgrown mess because I didn't prune.

Will you share with us what you love about gardening?

Welcome, TheFlowerMom.

Are you related to TheFlowerGirl?

I'm related only in spirit -- she and her husband touch me. They look worlds apart, but I see a whole bunch of misunderstanding and hurt.

I'd like to see them heal each other ... I truly think they can.

We think they can too, and we offer help with Dr Harley's Marriage Builders programme in order for them to do that. That's what this forum exists for.

Have you read the free materials on this site?

I have! Lots of really great free info -- amazing really that so much is available with a click.

It's made a huge difference in my life - I do, in fact have a gazebo or two or ten or two hundred in my past, but now my husband and I work side by side on many projects.

Thought you were coming on and were flowergirls mom at first lol, to give a piece of her mind

I see that you are not though, although her Mom could come here too

Welcome to marriage builders, where the bull hockey gets buried in the ground and provides plenty of nitrogen to grow the gardens

Lots of flowers here too

Welcome, TheFlowerMom.
What brought you to MB, TFM? Unfortunately most of us wind up here due to marital issues. I hope that's not the case for you, but we would be interested to know your background if you continue to post. It helps us gain perspective.

Maybe you could tell us how MB has worked in your marriage.

Your quote about the gazebos reminds me of a popular children's novel. The Little Prince, perhaps?

~optimism

Yes, please start your own thread and share with us, TFM.

I, too, thought you were Flower's mom.

I'm only a wannabe gardener (always said I had a black thumb), but I have at least 10 plants in my garden this year that didn't die, despite my best efforts.

Oh, and our little gazebo just blew away this week. Wednesday morning we found it upside down in the bushes after the "cold front with some wind" turned out to have some pretty strong gusts in it. We had the corners each weighted down with a 60 pound cinder block.

Flowergirl, I'm going to continue on and hope you are still reading.

Sometimes when I'm pruning I make mistakes. I accidentally cut off the wrong limb because I am careless in following it back to the cane or the trunk. I cut in too far and leave the plant sort of lopsided looking. I don't prune enough and the following spring I'm dealing with a bunch of stalky looking limbs.

So even though I'm trying my very best to care for my plants, I still goof it up. I don't goof it up because I don't really care -- I goof it up because I don't know any better. I wish I had a master gardener standing behind me to direct me because now I know I don't know -- I have a whole bunch of plants to remind me!

I found out it is much the same thing with my marriage. I think most of us get married thinking it will work itself out and when we look up one day and see a tangled, overgrown mess we think, "wait a minute -- I was told that this garden was self feeding and self pruning! No fair!"

At that point, we can get out the Round Up and the weed eater and destroy the whole thing, or we can look around for a master gardener.

You get to choose-- right now, it looks to me like your husband may be on his way to the Home Depot to get the Round Up, but he can always turn around!

Dr. Harley has studied marriages the same way I study my plants -- he's a master gardener of marriages. He knows what marriages need to be fed -- and each one is unique in its own way -- and he knows what needs to be pruned.

He calls the things that need to be pruned "lovebusters" - list of behaviors that make our spouses unhappy. Would you be willing to read about those? I think you'll recognize some of the behaviors in yourself -- that doesn't feel very good. You'll also recognize some of your husband's behaviors -- that feels a whole lot better!

Dr. Harley calls the things that a marriage needs to be fed to thrive "emotional needs." You can read about those here too -- I'd link it for you if I knew how. Everyone has a different list of top emotional needs and they can change -- but men typically have sexual fulfillment and recreational companionship at the top of the list and women have affection and intimate conversation. Can't remember the rest!

I think if your perspective changed a bit your behavior would follow naturally. It looks to me like you view your opposite sex friendships as something that your husband (and the posters on this thread) want to take away from you. It is human nature to hang on for dear life to stuff other people want to take away from us even if we don't really know why we want to keep it.

I see those friendships as something that needs to be pruned off your marriage to keep it strong and vital. I see those friendships as sucking all the life energy out of the marriage -- like a diseased branch you don't want to cut off because you are used to it or it's too much trouble. You wouldn't do that to your plants -- don't do it to your marriage, ok?

I don't have opposite sex friendships because I value my boundaries and I don't want to hurt my husband. I make that choice gladly, but when I first heard of the idea several years ago I thought it was ridiculous and controlling. The idea takes some getting used to, but it is a whole lot easier to implement than you think it would be when your perspective shifts from the idea that you are giving something up to the truth that you are giving something to -- to your marriage, your husband, your child and, although you might find it hard to believe right now, yourself.

Try pruning and feeding -- if it doesn't work, you can always back away and let the garden become tangled and overgrown again or go the Round Up/weed eater route. I think though that you'll like it once you see the new foliage and buds coming in near the cut wood.

That's all I have for you -- I hope you are reading and this helps in some way.

The master gardener and pruner, I like it. Still reading here TFG but staying away from what might be construed as counseling comments.

I do applaud your willingness to do the online course.

FlowerMom, did you start your own thread? I would love to comment on the"Master Gardner"

Dear Flowermom:

Thank you for writing. I did read your first post the other day after my husband recommended that I take a look at yours and forget the others. I had sworn off from this site because of the negativity and mouth from some.
I understand what you are saying and thank you for not being mouthy. I had written you a very long............... response the other day but decided to delete it after I had spent hours on it proofing it.
My h and I had another arguement Sunday. I wont even begin to go into it. It was really bad as he started name calling.
We are both very brittle. Very very brittle! He can't move forward and let the past be and stop briging it up all the time and I have a problem with that. I have a problem with his Angry outbursts for years and threats. (not related to our present problem.)
I just can't keep living in the past and having it thrown in my face all the time. Life is too short to keep dwelling on something that happened 15 years ago.
Maybe I'll write more later.

To have a beautiful flower garden you have to get the soil ready. That requires pulling weeds, tilling the soil, adding manure and requires much sweat on your part. You cannot obtain those beautiful flowers without getting dirty. Just because you do not like the manure part is no reason to walk away from your garden with your hands up in the air saying "i give up".

TheFlowerGirl, I am glad you decided to come back. I have always said that a person who is serious about recovery could not be run off by wild horses. I hope you are serious about recovering your marriage.

Angry outbursts should not be tolerated under any circumstances and I sympathize with you on that. I hope you can get into the Marriage Builders program so Dr Harley can help him with that. He helped my husband resolve his anger problems and has helped many others.

As far as leaving the past in the past, that can't be done when events in the present continually trigger him. Do you want our help in eliminating those triggers?

You have the power to bring him into the present. I am sure your husband wants to leave the past in the past more than you do and you can help him do that. As you can see, just demanding he leave the past in the past does not work.

Eggsactly

I wonder if part of the reason he's stuck is that you don't agree on what the past was?

If he says it was an affair, and you say it wasn't, then I agree, you are BOTH stuck. You both choose to view the past differently.


Now perhaps you have agreed that what you have done is not in the best interest of your marriage, and I've simply not read that. If so, then sorry for going over well plowed ground.

But if you haven't. If you still cling to the notion that your actions do not warrant concern, then I contend that you are a major stumbling block with respect to leaving the past in the past.

In fact, I wouldn't advise him to leave the past in the past, but remain on the lookout for additional past behaviors on your part.

Frankly, until you demonstrate the extraordinary care and protection for your relationship, he is well advised to be concerned about the past.

Not to discount his angry outbursts, as they are not conducive to making for a good marriage. But let's not lay all the blame on him for living in the past. After all, until those issues are resolved to your mutual satisfaction, it will still be there.

Since I've not seen anyone suggest that your behaviors are consistent with a good marriage, perhaps you will consider adopting the strategies recommended here for building a lifelong romantic marriage.

So you each have assignments. Knock off any behaviors that are inconsistent with the MB program.

"]Dear Flowermom:

Thank you for writing. I did read your first post the other day after my husband recommended that I take a look at yours and forget the others. I had sworn off from this site because of the negativity and mouth from some.
I understand what you are saying and thank you for not being mouthy. I had written you a very long............... response the other day but decided to delete it after I had spent hours on it proofing it."

Your story touches me. I see so much pain and misunderstanding on both sides and I really believe if you all will do this program your marriage will thrive. He obviously adores you -- otherwise why would he care about your male friendships?

"My h and I had another arguement Sunday. I wont even begin to go into it. It was really bad as he started name calling.
We are both very brittle. Very very brittle! He can't move forward and let the past be and stop briging it up all the time and I have a problem with that. I have a problem with his Angry outbursts for years and threats. (not related to our present problem.)"

Dr. Harley says arguments are abusive - would you agree? I don't think it is possible to have an argument without at least a few disrespectful judgements thrown in and usually some angry outbursts.I understand how damaging anger is.

I think one of the things we are called upon to do as spouses is expect the very best from your mate. When we don't take action when they start acting poorly, we are letting down our side of the deal.

What worked for us is I said that when I felt he was getting angry or acting disrespectfully, I would leave the conversation for thirty minutes, then I would come find him to discuss how and when we would resume.

Just leaving the conversation didn't work very well as he had no idea what would happen next so he would tend to follow me or leave the house in a huff. Having a set time and an agreement on how we would resume made all the difference. Sitting here, I can't remember the last time I called a time out.

We both win -- he wins because I'm requiring him to treat me with respect so he doesn't have any guilt and I win because I am treated with respect.

We also set a twenty minute time limit on all relationship talks and we go do something fun together -- take a walk, go to lunch, read a magazine together -- immediately afterward which means no relationship talks before work, on the phone, etc. I picked twenty minutes because I noticed it started to get repetitive and negative after that time but I imagine different couples will have different times. I think doing something fun afterwards is very important.

It seems to me that if you guys would get aome systems in place you could talk some of these issues through but until you do that, you are both going to continue to be frustrated.

What do you think?

"I just can't keep living in the past and having it thrown in my face all the time. Life is too short to keep dwelling on something that happened 15 years ago."

Have you asked him what he needs from you to put things in the past? Maybe he could write it down. Having something concrete to look at might help.

"Maybe I'll write more later."

I hope you will.

I read some of your husband's thread again and I have a few more thoughts for you about opposite sex friendships -- those friendships seem to be at the heart of his unhappiness as he doesn't feel safe.

I used to "harmlessly flirt" with men. I knew it bothered my husband, but it is a free country and he just needed to get over it. It was all in fun, right?

Then one day a few years back he specifically asked me not to flirt with an old friend of ours because he had always felt threatened by our "harmless flirting" and it made him feel inadequate.

I think there is a whole world of male ego related communication of which those of us of the gentler sex are blissfully unaware. I think in effect in flirting with other men I was sending them a signal only heard in male ego land that my husband was in some way inadequate and that they were in some way superior. Ummmm --- I don't think so! And I decided no one else was ever going to think so!

Would you agree that that would be a painful message for your husband to get from your behavior? That he is inadequate and that the male friend is in some way superior? I know that would really hurt me -- about like him flirting with a woman and telling me that she is just more feminine and interesting than I am.

"Male ego land" is just my theory -- maybe some of the men here will give their thoughts.

Since that day several years ago, I have made it a point to keep my husband between me and any male -- like if we go to a movie with another couple or are at dinner with bench seats -- I'll make up an excuse why I can't sit in a certain spot. When I enter a room, I make it a point to greet him and give him a kiss on the cheek first before I greet anyone else -- I want to broadcast loud and clear that I'm happily married. I don't allow myself to be in a conversation alone with a man -- I don't want him or anyone else to get the wrong idea.

There are many small things like that that I do -- small, but wow do they make a difference! He almost purrs when I greet him first with a hug and kiss in front of a group!

If you end your opposite sex friendships because you "have" to, you will resent it. I'd like to see you do some of those things because you want to -- cheerfully and with pride that you are protecting your marriage and your husband. I promise you the first time you see your husband purring with pride because this wonderful woman who happens to be his wife is broadcasting loud and clear that he is number one in her life, you will never look back.

Don't worry about it if this all seems overwhelming. No one gets this stuff overnight. I have a whole library of books on relationships and marriage that I've read over the last 10 years. All of the tactics worked .... for a while, but then failed because I wanted him to change his behavior while I carried on how I liked. It was only when I started consistently changing my behavior that we got lasting change.

I sent His Needs/Her Needs to my sister in law a year or so ago when she was struggling with the marriage. This last weekend my brother told me their marriage is great because "she started being nice so I stopped getting mad." I laughed -- your spouse doesn't even need to know what you are doing and you can still change a marriage!

As a man this is one of the most important statements I have seen in a long long time. +1 million

agreed

Yes. Two men could greet my wife with a hug and a peck on the cheek: one is clearly a threat and an "in-your-face" action and the other won't. Go figure.

X 10

Yep, and a husband knows which is which. Call it intuition...they just know.

Also agree, and CP, it should also be part of the how to maintain your woman M.A.

I have some neighbors that are in their early 80's that I help take care of with yardwork, gardening and whatnot, and the love they have for one another is palpable beyond belief. It's wonderful to see, but it also saddens me that I see so little of it from everyone else I know. It's almost like most people are embarrassed to admit, and broadcast, they truly love their spouse. True commitment to your spouse is a sight to behold, but when I actually DO run across it, I'm kind of shocked because I'm not used to seeing it freely expressed very often.

That's sad.

Ring-a-ding-ding-ding!

Winner, winner, chicken dinner!

That is what the majority of posters do here EVERY DAY.

I missed the majority of the "bad old days" when this forum was a mish mash of marriage advice gathered from the various rectums of the internet. By the time I started posting, it was all MB focused.

In these past two years, a second evolution has occurred; posters have begun focusing on how the behavior of the POSTER will improve the marriage.

Some newcomers are taken aback; "They are BLAMING ME for the state of my marriage!"

Yeaaaaah.... NO.

What is done is not to blame someone for the problems in the marriage, but for making them responsible for eliminating the problems in the marriage.


And THIS is what it looks like when someone takes responsibility for eliminating the problems in their marriage.


No, they won't "know" that something has changed, they will FEEL that something has changed when LB$ deposits outweigh withdrawals, and they fall in love with their spouse.





TFG,


If you want to stop having the past brought up in the present, you need to eliminate the BEHAVIORS that bring the past into the present.

It can't just be swept under the rug.

You have to make the choice to protect your husband from those behaviors you choose that cause you to be the source of his unhappiness, rather than the source of his happiness.

We will help him to do the same, in his own thread.

You have a husband who wants a fulfilling marriage; I suggest you quit wasting time pouting, and take advantage of the rare opportunity you have before it's gone.

It has been stated that, statistically, a marriage has better chances and recovering and becoming a GREAT marriage when the husband is on board.

There is no such thing as "harmless flirting."

opt

Exactly. Plus it is just flat out disrespectful to the one you promised to love and cherish for life.

Every day I think about the rule of protection �never be the source of your spouse�s unhappiness�

An interesting thread on flirting.
Mulan's long rant on flirting