Long story short (unimportant details have been changed to protect the innocent). I'm 29; WW is 26.

2008: Long period of unemployment and depression for me, BH.
7/2008: WW, wants a divorce after I get mad about something very petty. Separated. WW has an emotional fling (no in person contact) with an old friend, OM1, who lives a few hours away.
11/2008: Back together, after counselling and stuff.
7/2010: Accidentally find that the emotional fling has fired back up with OM2.
11/2010: Happens again, but pretty mild. (It's kind of the equivalent of men looking at pornography?)
7/2011: We've been foster parents to a newborn who's now been with us 10 months. The state begs us to adopt, and eventually we decided to. Then they change their mind at the last minute. Baby gets placed elsewhere. Obviously we're both grieved.
4/10/12: Wife tells me she wants a divorce.
5/8/12: Wife insists there's nobody else and we agree it would be best to wait until it's final on 11/20/12 before pursuing other romances.
6/10/12: I find out through supernatural means ("BH, your W is W with someone called OM2.") that she's having an emotional affair (or more) with someone of a specific name.
7/10/12: I finally confront her by simply telling her "I know about OM2. I'm going to hang up and pray for you." We have access to each other's texts and e-mails, but I would never break the trust between us by reading them. She assumes that's how I found out.

And recently, when I had to analyse our phone bill for some other reason:

2/3/12: Wife starts hour-long phone calls with OM2.
1/20/12: Wife says that's when she decided to ask for a divorce (but waited three months to do it), so OM2 isn't technically an affair.

OM2 is in emotional-affair territory (holding hands, a kiss), but as far as I know, that's it. I might be being lied to. My understanding is that these kind of emotional affairs are just as powerful (if not more so) than a physically intimate affair.

My question is simple: what are the odds on saving this marriage? My attitude towards my WW is one of being unconditionally loving (the frankness of this post hurts me and pains me as I spell this out). I'm willing to make this work.

I feel like the only person who can make this work is my WW now, and by choosing on her own to start displaying an entirely different set of behaviours.

How long have you been married?
What did you do on 11/2010?

We've been married since 2006; about 7 years.

On 11/2010, we argued on the phone after I found some communication with OM1, and her solution was to be separated. I was out of town at the time, and by the time I was back in town, she had decided not to do that. As far as know, everything with OM1 was over after that.

Welcome and sorry for your pain that has brought you here.

Are any of these OM married? How is she meeting them?

Here is some good reading.

Exposure 101
A Thread to Help Newly Betrayed Spouses

OM2 is not married. He's basically a mini-me. (I guess that's common?)

The fora for meeting these people is that she's discovered she has enough musical and vocal talent to regularly play in various bars, nightclubs, and restaurants around town. She used to be in a band (which is how it got started) and works as a bartender sometimes at one of them, although the band is down to just her and OM2 these days.

Exposure has already kind of accidentally happened, which is pretty much how I ended up here reading about it.

I'm not quite sure if I'm ready to do the full blown Exposure 101. Maybe it's a sign that I've lost some of my willingness to make it work. It just seems like a big hit to my reputation to blast that far and wide. (Is your willingness to do Exposure a test of how much you actually love your WS?)

BH 29 WW 26
1st M for both
D-day 7/19/12, OM2 27, unmarried
DV-day 11/20/12, WW put plan D into effect 4/10/12
No kids, and no plan A/B yet.

Your wife has terrible boundaries.
In order for your marriage to recover she would need to end her affairs, quit her job and probably move out of state.

Since you don't have kids you may be better off just divorcing her.
What do you want to do?

Qoheleth, my best advice would be to give her a list of conditions of your requirements to stay in the marriage. If she meets them, fine. If not, then you would be better off divorcing. That is the only possible way to make this work. If she doesn't comply with your conditions, you will be better off divorced.

If you stay married to her as she is, you will be condemned to a death of a thousand cuts. You will have short term pain and long term pain. If you get out, you will have short term pain and long term GAIN, because you will have an opportunity to find a suitable wife who meets your needs and is faithful. You won't have that opportunity if you are stuck in a horrible marriage with her.


I wanted to address this comment because it is very wrongheaded. Since she is your wife, you have a RIGHT and need to know every thing she says and does. What she does affects you directly. You should be trusted to look at every damn thing she does and says. NO ONE has the right to privacy to destroy her spouse behind his back.

There is absolutely NO VIRTUE in not snooping, because in doing so, you cause harm to yourself and your marriage. If you had been snooping all this time, you might have very well learned about her affairs early on and been able to stop them. A caring husband should be trusted to snoop. That is a good thing, not a bad thing.

I would lay out your conditions in an email so she has it in writing. She will probably laugh and say she has no intention of getting back together anyway, but that is ok. She will have it if/when she decides she wants to get back together. Right now, she thinks you have no conditions.


Explain to her that you want to have a romantic, loving, SAFE marriage and that you won�t stay in a loveless marriage with someone who lies and cheats. Tell her you are willing to give her an opportunity to earn your forgiveness. In order for the marriage to recover, certain things have to happen. This is what it will take to keep you interested:

1. end all contact with the OM for life

2. no more nights apart or going out without each other - create a healthy, integrated lifestyle

3. complete transparency - cell phone passwords, etc

4. no more opposite sex friendships

5. complete honesty about her affair<s> � passing a polygraph

6. commit to the Marriage Builders program for recovery as outlined in the book Surviving an Affair.

Tell her "this is what it will take to keep me in this marriage."

Whether your marriage ends up with success or failure will depend almost entirely on her willingness and ability to make radical changes. Her lifestyle must become absolutely transparent, holding nothing back. She is in no position to negotiate when it comes to extraordinary precautions, because those precautions are designed to prevent another affair and help you feel safe. She must also meet your emotional needs in a way that until now she has failed. Unless she makes a 180 degree turn in her approach to what it means to be a wife, your marriage won't recover, it will be a crippled version of your pre-affair marriage.

You have nothing to lose and everything to gain by taking this approach, because if she won't do these things, you will have lost nothing except a loveless, abusive marriage.

She quit her job in 2009, I got a new job, and we moved 2,000 miles away. It didn't work (new emotional affair happened with someone 2,000 miles away). Circumstances were such we moved back in 2011.

Divorce already has all final filings (she chose to file first) and, in theory, will be final around 12/31/12. We reached our divorce settlement agreement ourselves and both are satisfied what we agreed to. Assets are properly titled, and we'll legally and financially be completely out of each other's lives.

Her attitude started with "I'm sorry I hurt you"; lately's it's been "I'm sorry." Today she said, "I'm a selfish person. Selfish people shouldn't be married." I'm finding that I agree.

Since we're so far along, is there any utility in Exposure? It does seem to have come to light that surprisingly few people are aware that OM2's an emotional affair (or worse).


This is a radical concept for me. I'm awaiting Dr Hurley's books to show up in the mail to learn more about this. I've always thought it best for spouses to trust each other, and interpreted snooping on my wife as a sign of being abusive/a control freak.


I do have a question on this. Is this a two way street? In the event we're reconciled, do I need to give up my opposite-sex friendships? (I don't have a track record of infidelity in the slightest. But I'm learning that I know next to nothing about what a healthy marriage is.)

Read this.

Snooping: Is it the Right or Wrong thing to do in your Marriage?

Qoheleth,

Melodylane just gave you your next steps. That is what you need to do. Verbatim.

Just be thankful you and WW don't have kids.

She is acting very selfishly, that is true. But don't put too much stock in what she is saying. In fact, don't put any.

We call this fogbabble. Lies, justifications, gaslighting, and rewriting of history�All waywards say the same crap.

Yes sir -- although divorce right now is on autopilot, we're already separated, and she isn't interested in doing much of anything to reconcile right now. I'm eternally grateful we don't have kids, and that our adoption fell through last year. No kid should have to go through this.

My friends and family keep telling me that post-divorce, she'll come crawling back to me wanting to work things out. I should be finished reading Dr Hurley's books by then and fully intend to present MelodyLane's restrictions on any such "reunion".



So, in essence, there's no point in having a conversation at all, unless or until she wants to try to make things work -and- she agrees to what MelodyLane spelled out.

Got it.

How often do WWs come crawling back post-divorce? We currently evenly split $3,600 take-home pay a month, and per our divorce agreement, the last payment is on 12/1/12 of this year, unless she gets a job sooner. On 12/31/12 she's on her own (she's waived all spousal support forever in writing per California divorce law). My family and friends are paranoid that I'm going to voluntarily extend this arrangement, or that she'll move back in and we'll be in some kind of weird cohabiting situation.

We don't really have any reason, business or personal, that we must spend any time together again.

You guys are awesome. ML, I sent her this e-mail. And I guess this is it, eh?

Subject: Personal: Our marriage

Dear WW,

I want to have a romantic, loving, and safe marriage with you. I won't stay in a loveless marriage with someone who lies and cheats.

I would like to give you an opportunity to earn my trust. I forgive you, but I don't trust you. In order for our marriage to recover, certain things to happen. This is what it will take to keep me interested:

1. End all contact with OM2, OM1, and any other affair partners, emotional or otherwise, for life.

2. No more nights apart or going out with each other. Instead, create a healthy integrated lifestyle.

3. Complete transparency: share cell phones, texts, passwords, Facebook, etc.

4. No more opposite sex friendships.

5. Complete honesty about your affairs, emotional or otherwise (pass a polygraph)

6. Commit to a program like Marriage Builders for recovery as outlined in Dr. Hurley's book, "Surviving an Affair". If you would like a copy, I can get you one.

This is what it will take to keep me in this marriage.

Love,
BH

I understand completely. Our culture teaches us this nonsense and we accept it without question. As Harley says: "Lack of trust does not make spouses paranoid and miserable, it makes their marriages safe. " It is not a lack of trust that ruins marriages, but a lack of boundaries. If you had been snooping the whole time and you both practiced complete transparency, her affairs would have never taken place.

The idea that "trust" is important to a marriage is an urban myth that people just parrot without really thinking it through. It is too much "trust" that leads to affairs and ruins marriages.

here

here


Yes, opposite sex friendships are dangerous to marriages. That is how affairs begin. IT is just a good practice in marriage.

And yes, I would expose your wife's affair to everyone.

Q, have you told your parents about all this?

You did good!! Now the ball is in her court. You win either way this goes. If she meets your conditions you will have a great marriage. If she doesn't, you will be free to move on. Good job!

And she may scoff at this email, but she won't be scoffing when she wants to come back. It will serve as her roadmap back to you. You have raised the price of admission into a marriage with you.

Once again, you guys are awesome. I'll be back next year to let you know how it goes.


This still rings the alarm bells of being a creepy abusive jealous husband. What's the deal with listing "He always wants to know where you are" in the checklist of signs you might be in an abusive relationship? It's a a radical shift in thinking for me because I've spent years as a foster parent and undergoing training there to recognise abusive people.


When's the right time to cut the cord? I don't feel these relationships are harmful to me right now, and I'll be divorced in four months--and I'm never letting any romance happen with me and someone else when I'm legally married, no matter how dead the M is.

But I'm open to hearing I'm wrong!


Is there any reason to do this at this point? I just plain don't feel like going to the trouble. If she wants to reconcile, well, she can broadcast it high and wide. I'm honestly exhausted and feel like I've expended enough on this in the last 7 months.

I'm open to hearing how I'm wrong. If it will do her good (and is something other than an act of revenge), I'll do it. I'm completely uninterested in revenge. Losing me as a husband is plenty of revenge. Don't want any more of it.


Yes, my parents, and WW's mother, know. My mother-in-law's attitude is "Only prayer will change WW." My parents' attitude is that they want things with me and WW to be 100% over.

Just think how creepy and bizarre that very notion is. It is creepy to commit affairs, lie and cheat. It is not creepy to CATCH someone doing this. As a husband and wife you have a right to know absolutely everything your spouse does because it affects you directly.

It is "abusive" to have an affair. It is abusive to lie and cheat. It is not abusive to snoop and catch her doing so. Can you imagine calling the police "creepy" for spying on drug dealers?

And if a spouse is being completely open and honest, you wouldn't need to snoop. Any spouse that would object to you looking at her email, texts, etc, should set off your red flags, because people who have nothing to hide, don't hide.

For example, would you care if your wife looked at your emails? I would welcome it!


You are probably going to be single soon enough anyway, but I would caution you about getting too close to any females right now. You are probably very vulnerable to an affair and don't need another person in the mix.


I would just make sure her family, your family and close friends know. Otherwise she will be free to lie about you. You don't want her telling tales about you for the next 20 years.


Yes, my parents, and WW's mother, know. My mother-in-law's attitude is "Only prayer will change WW." My parents' attitude is that they want things with me and WW to be 100% over. [/quote]

I figured that's what your momma wanted. She will be a great ally to you. I hope you show her this thread and tell her you have a PLAN. It makes us parents SICK when our kids are being harmed. I would give this same advice to my own 29 year old son.

Well-said.


Okay, I've got a serious question there which I'll put in a separate post. I'm really not sure what to do.

(Regarding Exposure)

That's a relief. WW's family is good: I wouldn't mind telling them. I don't relish at all the prospect of broadcasting to our Facebook friends far and wide what's happened. Many of them are customers or suppliers (we both work in the music business) and nobody wants to deal with this crap.



My mother will be absolutely delighted when she reads the e-mail I sent WW.

My brother's wife's sister--we'll call her Nancy, she's 28--moved into the same general area where myself and WW live. It was a rather seedy affair where Nancy's H told her he was going on a long business trip for the military, and that she should go visit her sister while he was gone. Seemed great at first. He flew out to visit after a month. Then he stopped communicating with her. Turns out the "business trip" was an hour away, and all the other men drove home regularly to visit their military wives. She decided to drive back, and her car broke down. Now she's living with my brother and his wife with their two little girls, infant and 4. Currently, he claims he's filed for divorce, but no paperwork has shown up, so she's kind of in limbo. She'd like to reconcile things, but he's moved out of their former on-base housing, and tells her it's over. She calls him often, he doesn't respond. He stopped talking to the girls on the phone about a month ago. Her brother is a high ranking officer and has forced the issue for some basic contact about things like child support, which is in limbo too. I've become an extremely suspicious person, but I am certain the above is true.,

My brother and I are close, and are business partners. Our business is on his property, so I'm just plain there regularly. In addition, we all love the kids and take turns watching them. His home is also a social hub for one of the music bands I'm involved with, and we have many mutual friends, including our business partners. This whole arrangement was fine before my WW told me she wanted a divorce, and Nancy and I weren't friends much beyond "hello".

Cue my wife asking me for a divorce 4 months ago and her husband doing the exact same thing at the same time, and we've had plenty to talk about. She won't be divorced anytime soon; he hasn't actually finished filing anything, and she's busy with college which she just started. Our conversations have mostly revolved around talking about reconciliation with our spouses, the legal logistics of divorce, if it's morally right or not (both of us believe it is not), and the kids.

I haven't done anything remotely wrong, but as I write this out, I can see alarm bells going off everywhere. I have no plans to cheat on my wife, and I have no plans to cheat with another man's wife, whether I'm single or not, and whether or not he's abandoned her and his kids. There is zero alone time nor touching nor any talk of "us" between us, but I do recognise that the two of us have probably met needs the other has (if just for good advice) that we aren't getting from our spouses who desire to leave us.

But these kids are family, they matter to me, but I just don't know what the heck to do with my relationship with Nicole. I haven't spoken with anyone about it until someone casually dropped at lunch on Sunday that "You and Nicole should just get married." Yikes!

You need to back right out of that mess. You and Nicole are meeting certain emotional needs and this could quickly turn into a nightmare. Once one emotional need is met outside of marriage, the others are close behind.

I would just quietly ease out of this relationship and if you can't do that, simply explain you don't think its good for either of you to have a friendship when your marriages are in such trouble. Even if you are both divorced, you want to stay away from women with children. Marriages with step children have an 85% divorce rate!

Is it advisable to stay in the kids' lives? I'd like to be an uncle. The eldest is currently trying to figure out how daddy disappeared six months ago and it's plain as day that she really craves male attention. My brother's a good authority figure, but he's distant.

It'll be relatively simple to quietly scoot out of Nicole's life, as she's busy with school right now.

(I've been a foster parent twice before, been a prospective adoptive parent once before, and know all those risks. Fostering is kind of something I do--it's who I am. I also know how hard it is. As sad as it sounds, I never trusted my W enough to have biological children with her.)

I would back out of that relationship too since being close to them will mean being close to their mother. Since you aren't going to have a relationship with their mother, it is better for someone else to take that role.

Thank you for your sage advice.

I'll update this thread as things happen. By the way, you guys here are awesome. There's a stunning amount of accumulated wisdom here.

Thanks for listening and keeping an open mind!

This is a phrase that has been mis-used, along with all the other mis-used catch phrases that have taught us that complete trust is essential in a happy marriage.

Let me rephrase this to clarify the point those articles are actually trying to make: THIS is the sign of an abusive relationship, when a spouse is controlling the other spouse. The original phrase was written improperly and has taken on a life of its own. Pity. It's incorrect.

I like to know where my husband is and what he is doing. He always knows where I am and what I am doing. We are each half of a whole unit, so it's only right and natural that each half knows what the other half is doing. That makes for a healthy whole, KWIM?

So it's obvious to others, as well.

Step away from this, Q. You've unwittingly begun the foundation for an emotional affair. This is baggage that you don't need right now, and will definitely be an issue if/when your WW comes home.

None of these are compelling reasons to insert yourself into the lives of these kids. You're not their 'uncle'. You don't need to be their 'foster parent'. The fact that they are there doesn't mean you need to 'save' them. And I certainly don't think you should volunteer to be a male figure for a little girl who 'craves' male attention. It is the responsibility of their mother to address these issues.

Thanks, maritalbliss. I can't believe I've been inhaling the
carcinogens that would allow this kind of cancer to develop. I've been blind to what's been at risk of developing.

Thank God nothing's actually happened. I hope this whole thing has been entirely one sided. It's pretty easy for me to exit (I can act busy and avoid the part of the buildings Nicole's in.)


Agreed.

I'll post in a week or two with how things are going. Thanks again to everyone who's chimed in. You've helped me more than you know.

Whilst I've been waiting for Dr Harley's books to show up in the mail, I've been busy listening to some of the radio segments and some of his video lectures on the website.

One thing has especially caught my attention: if you're getting your emotional needs met anywhere else by someone of the opposite sex, you're at risk of an affair, no matter how excellent your moral character.

I've been taking stock of my OSFs (opposite-sex friends). Most of my friends are men; there are some couples my wife and I were friends with, but my strongest relationship in those friendships is with the husband. I've already identified OSF1 in my earlier posts which I've decided to avoid permanently.

I have two more OSFs I want to seek this forum's advice about. The first is an old friend from about eight years back (predates me meeting my WW). OSF2 and I live in different states, so we mostly talk via text or IM. Invariably our conversations as of late are about a love interest she has and seeking my advice as to my perspective as a guy. I've never thought about it before, but alarm bells are going off in my head as I write this. OSF2 is single and unmarried. I don't have interest in OSF2, although there may have been some unspoken energy between us eight years ago before I met my WW.

OSF3 is someone from childhood I reconnected with a few years back over a crisis where we had a shared interest. Our conversations usually involve politics, etc., but lately she's shared challenges in her relationship with her boyfriend with me. Again, alarm bells going off. OSF3 is obviously has a boyfriend and is into "open relationships". There is no romantic interest or attraction on my part to OSF3.

I feel like I need to clean house. Is it normal (or perhaps I should say, is it desirable) to just not have OSFs, other than if you're single and actively dating?

I would never dream of cheating or having an affair, but I'm disturbed that my lifestyle could have presented the slightest possible to me to do so.

Qoheleth, if you are talking to a woman about her personal relationships, you are making love bank deposits. So scratch OSF1 and OSF3.

If you have no real interest in OSF2, she should be easy to quit talking to as well.

Thanks markos. Time to quietly disappear from OSF1/2/3.

I had not thought of the perspective of NOT making love bank deposits to other women. Is that a good warning sign that you're at risk of going stray?

The Harleys will say on the radio it's OUR job to protect our own love banks from others (who shouldn't be) making deposits into our LB. That's what boundaries are all about.

Okay. My attitude before I rolled around here--I ended up here by Googling for "marriage success after affair" and "accidentally exposed affair" after accidentally exposing a tiny bit and dealing with how livid my WW was--was that this marriage is over, can't be saved, and my WW is consigned to a life of misery as an affairee.

It seems it's much more likely now that she has a chance, or that she might try to come back post-D.

I'm also getting ready for Exposure but do not have sufficient evidence to distribute yet.

So, my doctrine is to act out of unconditional love. I've been supporting her with half of my take home pay this year. It's not in our D settlement; it's just something I said I'd do to be nice.

I've made it clear my love/support is unconditional, but now that I realise she's slipping into a fantasy world of hanging out in bars, having an affair, not working, assuming I'm here for granted if she wants to come back, and drinking more and more. It's not love to enable someone to live that way. It's just setting them up for a lot of hurt down the road.

I do need to tread somewhat lightly until final divorce judgment shows up in the mail, but that should be any day now. (If there's some legal technicality and it's not finalised, I don't want to deal with her lawyering up.)

My next money drop to her is late next week (around the 15th). I've been in the process of moving out of one of our apartments with the intention of her taking over the lease. She couch-surfed for the first 4 or 5 weeks of separation, and since then has been living with her parents.

Advice? I'm waiting for Dr Hurley's books to show up in the mail and don't plan to do too much until I've read them. Hopefully this weekend.

Read these.
What's Wrong with Unconditional Love #1
What's Wrong with Unconditional Love #2

Thanks. I've got a lot of reading and learning to do.

What's right to cut off?

Q, you are making this WAY too damned easy for her, when you should be making her adulterous lifestyle a living Hell!! Why?

I can tell you're a very smart guy, but why are you aiding her? Doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever.

I would be cutting her off. Why the hell would you even consider financing her adultery?

Um, again, why? Your being nice to her is in return for her niceties to you? I don't think so. What has she done to warrant such generosity from you? I just can't for the life of me figure out why you're offering it.

Let her support her own [censored]. No wonder she has no desire to come back. She's had no taste of life without your support. Hell dude, she's got it made! All the guys she wants AND her husband is paying for it! Pretty good deal if I'm her.

Seriously, C'mon, you're better than this. She won't come crawling back with the way you're acting. Oh, and BTW, when it comes time to settle in court, you'll see some serious changes on her demands and wants(bet on it). You're rolling over right now and she WILL take advantage of that when it comes time for the rubber to meet the road. Why? Because you've allowed her to so far, so why should she stop?

If you want to make something happen, then make it happen now.

Just how much evidence do you have for exposure?

Just my thoughts.

Evidence for exposure currently consists of phone bills and videos of them playing love songs together. Not really a smoking gun.

It would be possible for me to get her to discuss more details of the emotional affair (I have no idea if it's physical) in person with me, which I could record.

With a little more time, I could get a bit more evidence. I've decided to expose, but would prefer to do so with better evidence and more people to expose to. I need to locate OM2's parents, for example.



We've already settled in court; I'm just waiting for the decree of divorce with the final judgment (which includes our settlement) to show up in the mail.

Thanks for your encouragement here. Once I've got that in hand, I intend to go full nuclear.

Can you please clarify something:
Are you financially supporting her? Did I read correctly that you are giving her half of your paycheck voluntarily?

Yes, I have been. Legally speaking, we both take the same profit share from our business, of which we aren't the majority owners. She elected to quit working for the business right after we asked for a divorce; the other partners aren't too happy about this arrangement but have accommodated my wishes to not cut her off. If my wishes changed, they would be delighted.

I'm not planning to do it anymore, although she's completely and utterly convinced herself that I'll stop at some point because "you don't really love me unconditionally". After reading Dr Harley's articles above, I've decided that might be true: I won't keep enabling her to destroy herself.

After she asked, not after we asked.

Do you have kids?

We don't have kids. (Is it standard to put "no kids" in your signature?)

We did foster a baby last year which nearly turned into an adoption (it's an "occupational hazard" of fostering). Two different government agencies suddenly disagreed and litigated against one another, with appeals; in the end, the child got adopted elsewhere. Heart-wrenching at the time, but in retrospect I'm glad she's not involved in this disaster. WW claims she would have never divorced me if we'd kept her, but I don't believe a word of it.

I got caught up on your thread;

I strongly encourage you to EXPOSE.
Why? Because it holds her accountable. It is NOT revenge. It is allowing her and OM to face the natural consequences of their actions.
All of OM married friends and family should know that he is a danger to marriages.
To not expose would be to enable.
Can you email exposure letter to all of OM married friends and family on Facebook? also all of your wifes married friends and family

After reading numerous other threads here, I've decided to do that. I'm personally ready to call it quits. But I realised when I married, I said through sickness and in health. I'm not givin' up that easy. And I'm doing OM2 a huge favour by teaching him now, when he's young, how much having affairs with married women will destroy his life.

I could, but I'm a little light on evidence. I would like to spend a week or two firming up solid evidence.

Thanks to everyone here for de-programming me from feeling like I'm betraying her by exposing. It's a lot easier to plan it and to do once I realised it's the right thing to do, especially for her (and for him).

You don't need to have anything solid to expose. I had evidence but was never asked for it. I would have been happy to share if my targets had asked but it wasn't necessary. I think you shouldn't wait any longer. You have the chance to kill this now.

I need a few days to get everything ready (save copies of videos so OM2 can't take them down, for example, redact phone bills, and get a recorded confession from her to the affair). And I need to have the time to execute the exposure.

I think I'll be ready soon, but no sooner than a few days and possibly not until next weekend (a week from now).

What do I do with my WW in the meantime? I don't want to tip my hand. I'd like to start moving out of the stupid set of behaviours I've been in into plan A, but plan A clearly starts with exposure. I need to stop meeting her financial needs, for example. And I'm completely unsure how far to go with meeting emotional needs.

Continue plan a. I"m on my phone so I can't link it for you but you want to meet her needs and show her what a great husband you can be. No lovebusting or angry outbursts. Show her you care

Carrot and Stick of Plan A

Okay. My to-do list:

- Stop lovebusting behaviours. (Done)

- Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language (Done)

- Exposure (Not done)

- Not going to move out of apartment we used to share (I'd been planning to do so). She is welcome back with open arms if she's willing to comply with the checklist MelodyLane had. Otherwise, she can find her own place, or continue to live with her parents.

- Discuss financial affairs; the current financial support situation needs to stop, but I don't want to tip my hand or cause legal issues with our divorce. I have a legitimate reason for money to be "tight" right now.

- Persuade her to repeat to me, once again, the timing and details of the affair because I need closure.

- Audio record this conversation (legally)

- Save copies of videos I found online of them singing duets of love songs together

- Make redacted phone bill showing timing of their relationship

- Expose to anyone and everyone (including locating OM's family)

The hardest part of this is that I'll have to tell her, "I'm sorry I promised you unconditional love with no hooks. I thought that was the most loving thing to do. I've since learned from an expert on human relationships that I was wrong." (The hooks are the one in MelodyLane's earlier reply that I e-mailed to WW.)

For exposure get the OM Facebook friend list.
You want to send your exposure letter to all his married friends and relatives.

Working on that angle of it. Busy reading Exposure 101 and drafting my letters.

Is it reasonable to run my letters by y'all first?

Have you seen the exposure templates that are here on the site?

Yes please do post your exposure letter for review

Yes, I gathered the templates (and a lot of other useful information) from Exposure 101.

This is not a workplace affair for OM; is there a template for that letter? The texting, Facebook messages, etc. occurred during work time, so I feel it's appropriate to notify OM's workplace.

There is a template for it...I just don't know where it is, just letting you know that there is one and a vet will link you to it shortly or copy+paste an example of one. And they (HR) will be very interested to know that he is using his work time for outside purposes.

Today was productive; I said I wanted complete closure and honesty, and she recounted what's happened with OM1 and OM2 in detail, right down to the timing and types of kisses. WW still maintains denial that she decided marriage was over.

Got permission to record, recorded the whole thing, so I have quite a bit of audio to edit. Gathered background info on OM that should help me locate his parents.

Is an audio "confession" enough of a smoking gun? I also have a few videos of them singing duets of love songs, the phone bills.

It also looks like I have talked my way into permission to access her phone, social media, and other accounts. My opinion is that all traces of texts will, however, have long ago been permanently deleted.

Planning for exposure next weekend.

Other news: Nicole hit me up for a job at our company, via text. I did not reply. (I thought I had her texts blocked.) We have an opening for someone with her talents. Forwarded on the request to my brother and asked him to deal with it.

Please do feel free to tell me what an absolutely horrible idea it would be if she worked for us, though. I need reinforcement! (And the fear of you guys yelling at me if I do something STUPID.)

I also have a gigantic decision to make--I got accepted into a Bible college sort of thing, and the acceptance decision came very late. Class starts tomorrow. I'd really like to go, but it will be a significant time commitment, and there's no way this is something WW can do with me. (They have a screening process for what they call "lifestyle issues". I had to do quite a bit of explaining myself about why I'm in a divorce/separation situation.)

I know that on the one hand I shouldn't put my dreams on hold for someone who's divorcing me anyway, but on the other hand being at class an hours' drive away two times a week for the entire afternoon seems like exactly the behaviour Dr Harley's documented as leading to broken marriages in the first place.

Thanks again to the wonderful people here. I wouldn't be doing any of this without you guys!

Yes an audio confession is a smoking gun. Most BS have to snoop to get the information so count yourself ahead of the game in regards to that.

So get your info on the OM1 and OM2 and do your exposure all at once.

Do either OM have facebook?

I would pursue the opportunity.
Obviously you don't give a Job to someone you have had a relationship with. My ex wife actually asked the same thing prior to divorce.

Facebook is being dutifully analysed for both OM1 and OM2.

I don't think WW has had any contact with OM1 since early 2010. Is it still advisable to go for exposure on that one?

Relationship with OM1 was entirely emotional affair territory after WW and I first met; prior to us meeting, OM1 had a very tepid relatonship with a small physical element (according to WW). I've seen OM1. He's physically repulsive, but a real charmer on the phone/via Internet.

Should an exposure letter aimed at WW's friends expose both OM1 and OM2? The only purpose I can see would be to document the history of emotional affairs.

Ok. Yeah, it's obvious. Just want back-up here that it's totally wrong.

The opportunity is really going to cut into the 15 hours a week thing if WW and I get to that stage.

I spoke to the director of the cohort I'll be in. My cohort is more women than men; mostly my age or younger; some married, some with families, a good number single.

I think I'm an "affair-proof" person. But I want to be realistic about what I'm getting into. (My cohort will provide me with plenty of opportunities for new, healthy friendships with men, so it's not all bad.)

You don't do POJA in active divorce

I'm confused.
Are you in active divorce (filed in court)?

Are you living together?

Dr Harley believes we are all wired for adultery. There is no such thing as an 'affair-proof' person. You make yourself affair proof by creating tight boundaries that do not allow yourself to have your EN's met by anyone other than your spouse.

I don't know your whole sitch either but, you are married until you are divorced, which means you will not want to relax your boundaries until you are officially divorced.

Ditto, unwritten.

"I know I will, therefore I remove the temptation." (Or opportunity for there to be temptation, IE, not having an opposite-sex secretary, etc. All falls under EPs.)

Currently in active divorce, which in theory is finalised. I'm just waiting for the final judgment to show up in the mail. It won't be effective until 11/20 due to the laws in our state.

I feel plan A, followed by Exposure, followed by more plan A is the way to go right now, divorce or no divorce. I don't feel like I can effectively implement POJA, but I can choose to meet some of WW's ENs, I can choose to avoid letting my ENs get met elsewhere, and I can choose to completely stop any lovebusting behaviour.

This divorce happened so quickly. WW told me she wanted one; we negotiated an agreement within two weeks, and had it filed at the courthouse with all final paperwork completed two weeks and a day later.

There was a paperwork snafu, but that was quickly refiled. The only limiting factor is that our state puts a minimum time frame and the soonest final date we could get with our date of filing was 11/20 (about five months from filing, six months from when WW asked).

Thank you unwritten and karmasrose--it sounds to me like a class with a cohort where we're expected to spend a lot of time working with each other is not what I need right now. I would like to structure my life in whatever ways necessary to avoid ever having an affair.

Is there a list of do's and don'ts for ENs in an active divorce situation?

Not to my knowledge. Most around here actually advise a Plan B after divorce, for your mental health.

Q - did you know you can get a sim card reader that will recover deleted texts? check them out - there's even a youtube video on how. i checked out the second one on the list myself (brickhousesecurity).

yes, your audio confession is more than enough. but i would still keep the other stuff in a safe place.

Won't be compatible with her phone, unfortunately (doesn't use a SIM).

There are probably plenty of recoverable texts in recent months, but I won't be able to get my mitts on ones from before she filed for D/told me she wanted a D.

Everything is being squirreled away safely.

Okay. Is Plan B advisable even with a four-week timeframe between "I want to leave you/get a divorce" and all final paperwork being filed?

At this point, I feel like I have nothing to lose.

oh, ok. bummer.

i'm a little confused at where you are in the process? let me see if i've got it right: your WW had an a, has filed for divorce, but the a is dead and a reconciliation is on the cards. you are hoping to rekindle the M and perhaps remarry later. is that about right?

month 0, week 1: 2/3/12: WW starts emotional affair
month 3, week 9: 4/2/12: WW moves out of apartment under guise of taking care of mother who just had surgery
month 3, week 10: 4/10/12: WW tells me she wants a divorce. Agreement negotiated.
month 4: 5/1/12: WW files divorce. I file response. It's final.
month 4: 5/2/12: Get a spiritual/supernatural revelation WW is having an affair. Assume I've lost my mind.
month 4: 5/2/12: A becomes physical to the point of kissing. As far as I know, no more.
month 5: 5/29/12: WW refiles due to minor error (didn't tick a box, typo in settlement agreement). Now it really is final.
month 5: 6/9/12: I decide to take a huge risk, confront WW about the affair, she confesses, yes, it's true. (I assumed it was all in my head.)
month 6: decide to give her plenty of space. Spend time working on myself, working out grief issues from failed foster-adoption, etc.
end of month 6: We have a shared business trip to deal with splitting the business up. Business aspects all go smoothly and are completed. She reveals even more details to me. WW deals with seeing old mutual friends of ours who universally tell her to stop what she's doing.

I'm in a unique situation here because the divorce was filed within 22 days of being asked, and I found out about & confirmed the affair through odd circumstances a month after the divorce was finalised.

Post-confrontation, our relationship has been different than it's ever been, mostly because there's a sudden atmosphere of honesty between us. I also started engaging in a radical change of behaviour, both because I decided I needed to learn how to live without WW, and because I wanted to stop lovebusting behavours to WW.

Affair is still ongoing. These needs are mutually met:
- affection (holding hands, affectionate but not passionate kissing, hugs, etc.)
- recreational companionship (play music together and go to concerts together)
- conversation
- admiration

WW is probably meeting physical attractiveness for OM. I find OM to be a less-attractive version of myself, but PA is not a big need for WW, as far as I know.

Exposure is probably going to blow this thing apart after further details I've learned (e.g. one of WW and OM's best mutual friends who got them into the music scene had a cheating ex and is since remarried; OM lives with parents, and is having conflicts with his mother; OM goes to a fairly conservative church; WW has misled OM and OM/WW's mutual friends into believing the marriage is dead and I don't want to work on it.)

I'm starting to get the feeling I should be transitioning to the D/D forum, not the SAA forum?

I still need to transcribe and process the conversation I recorded today and analyse further, in a more sensible post. Please advise if I should stay here or transition to D/D. I'm in a weird limbo.

Stay here.

Q, I having a difficult time understanding something. What in the world makes you think this isn't a full blown PA? Your WW's word? If they have time for kissing and hand holding, then they certainly have time to do what MOST adults do under these circumstances.

This isn't middle or high school we're talking about here.

In other words, OMs don't stick around for 4 months if they aren't getting what they were after in the first place in a reasonable amount of time. Well, usually.

See what I mean?

I have no idea if it's a full blown PA. It might be. It doesn't matter to me. EA or PA, it's an affair.

I do have the history of having past affairs which were strictly emotional, and I've lived with her long enough to know that physical attractiveness and sexual fulfilment are low on her list of emotional needs.

The topology of OM's relationship with my WW is that it started out for a few months with him getting emotional needs met. I'm sure sexual fulfilment is on his mind. In any case, I don't know, I can't confirm, and it doesn't really change anything.

How much info do you have on this OM2? This is important. My apologies if you have already posted this. I wouldn't worry too much about OM1 right now. You can deal with that later if necessary.

For clarification your divorce is not final until the Judge signs it.

You need to get your exposure letter done this weekend. Can you do that?

Also the OM pastor will need to be on your exposure list.

I have some intelligence on OM2, and am working on gathering more. I don't consider OM1 worth my time right now.

I'm waiting for the signed/stamped judgment to show up in the mail so the divorce is final. Believe me, the wait is excruciating.

Oddly enough, the best source of information is WW. She loves talking about OM2!

OM pastor (and the rest of church leadership, young adults group leaders, etc.) will be on my list.

Does OM2 have any other GFs?

Have you found his family yet?

Carry on dude, but I would try and ramp up your nuke date as much as possible. With your sitch, time really is of the essence.

Gotta say though, it's good to have a BH come here for help and not have a need to have that help pounded into his head to take some action.

Doesn't happen often around here, I'm very sorry to say.

No girlfriends as far as we're aware, unless he's got a girlfriend that none of his friends know about, that doesn't mind that he's out at all hours of the night, and doesn't mind him posting love songs with another woman on his Facebook.

I live next door to a coffeehouse/nightclub where he and WW play music at open mic nights. My WW works there sometimes as a bartender, which is how she met him. It's gotten to the point where an older couple I'm friends with remarked that they saw him through the glass windows of the coffeehouse when driving through town, singing next to WW.

OM2's parents' home address and mother's name have been located. He lives at the same address in an finished garage or apartment or something like that. No phone number/email for the parents yet, but such things can be obtained.

My attitude right now is focused solely on exposure, having as favourable of a divorce outcome as possible, and shifting as much financial responsibility (within the terms of the divorce agremeent) to WW as possible.

If WW wants to reconcile, that's another topic for down the road.

Exposure will be sometime this week, but possibly not until next weekend. I've been busy transcribing and editing audio; it's excruciating. Visit the "Things out of a wayward's piehole" thread for more. To be honest, hearing and analysing her words, especially about a past emotional affair, is making me want to call it quits on ever trying to work things out with her.

You can't analyze what a wayward says too much.
It's usually just what they call "fog babble"

My sister has a neighbor with a heroine addict son.
He is banned from his parents house but will walk there like a zombie and lie there on the lawn as If he is dead. Supposedly he will mutter sometimes while he lays there (the cops always come and take him away)

Obviously it would be a complete waste of time to listen o what he says ; same thing for wayward.

WW's parents seem to have found out.

Early exposure is not at all desirable!

That's a natural consequence/ event.
Don't worry about it

Exposure in progress.

Gonna be a long day.

Glad to hear it. The sooner the better to have the truth out first before the waywards can spin their version of bs

Trust me, I know. Me and my family were called loco and skank actually encouraged kiss to put a restraining order on us! As if a judge would.actually grant that!

Well, THAT didn't take long. I didn't even get a chance to get started on Facebook. Got to her grandparents and her sister/brother-in-law.

What happened was I had already told her parents about the affair. Apparently WW had told them it was a one time thing, and it was over. I casually mentioned that she was with him right now and her mother seemed very surprised. Things snowballed from there.

WW spent a while with her mother, who drove her down to meet with OM2 face to face, where she told him she wouldn't be able to talk to him until the divorce is final because "my husband has me over a financial barrel".

WW has agreed to EPs (in theory), and agrees not to be around any of her new (post-affair) friends, or the whole bar/music scene.

As bad as this sounds, right now I just want a divorce and want it to be over with. I'm having to deal with someone who, frankly, seems crazy: lies to her mother, lies to her sister, gets upset with me when accidentally caught in those lies, lets me know over and over she doesn't want to be my wife (thanks--the divorce filing didn't tell me that), and kept stating she wanted to end her life.

What on earth have I gotten myself into? Oh, and yeah, exposure is VERY effective. I had no idea how even partial exposure could kill an affair so fast. Right now though I am deeply fearful of:

- False recovery

- Partial exposure

I'm not sure what to do other than to finish the exposure to OM's friends tomorrow.

for MIL.

You should finish exposure tonight to OM's side. Do not do a trickle exposure. He may be telling his family a bunch of lies now. Get it done, friend.

Yeah, I am grateful for her support. Even though she thinks I'm being "controlling" and that it's unreasonable of me to ask for her social networking passwords, etc. (which WW just agreed to disclose to me).

I really fouled up with the OM in the sense I don't know how to reach his family. I already drove down there and knocked on every door within spitting distance of his mother's/his house, and apparently everyone had other plans on a Sunday afternoon. I have her name, but no phone number.

I can blast away an exposure on Facebook tonight. WW, her parents, and myself have come to an agreement that involves her moving back in our shared apartment.

I'm not entirely sure how I feel about that.

Okay. So WW has moved back into our apartment, effective tonight.

I've stated my goal is for the two of us to end the year with no debt. We're talking about $9,000 of debt she has here.

Does this mean the price, in WW's head, of ending the affair was $9,000? I'm so confused by wayward logic right now. Literally nothing makes sense.

I'm just flabbergasted she decided to end it, decided to move back in, and for no benefit I can see other than a few lousy bucks which aren't even guaranteed. (I am assuming she does not consider my roommate-ship a "benefit".)

Be careful. She may be buying time and staying in a safe place while she does so.

Let her know that there are things she needs to do NOW before you will agree to even consider reconciling, to-wit:

1. NC letter to OM.
2. Sharing all passwords.
3. Change her cell phone number.
4. Follow Marriage Builders for recovering the marriage. Get the online course - and she needs to follow it diligently.

If she is unwillinging to do any of these things, KICK HER [censored] BACK OUT.

She currently does not want to recover the marriage, but who knows--that might change tomorrow. Reading her Facebook messages just now gave me an entirely different perspective on how she perceives this marriage than what she's been telling me.

Getting her to send an NC letter to OM will not be difficult.

Passwords have been shared. In fact, they hadn't changed in years. I'm just not naturally a snooper.

Changing her cell will be relatively easy to do.

I suspect she will think very differently about saving your marriage when she realizes that the affair is dead and she has nowhere to go.

This is really weird. If she has no intentions of recovering your marriage, then just why did she do all this?

Those crazy waywards...

I guess.

I'm also guessing now that Momma has found out she's been lied to and the affair was ongoing and not a ONS, she pretty much kicked her out and she had nowhere else to go.

That's the only thing that makes sense to me at this point.

Just what is this agreement and why do her parents have a say-so about it? I missed this the first time around.

Did you finish facebook exposure on OM?

I would install keyloggers now why she's home.

Did she write the NC letter?

I made it abundantly clear I am out of the picture for good if the affair didn't stop.

She has about $9,000 of debt (plus we have $3,000 of joint debt). Our divorce settlement would make me responsible for around $1,600 of that, and the rest I am not responsible for.

I am guessing the price tag of her affair was $7,400? To be honest, I felt her love for OM was a little dearer than that!

She had the option to live with her parents once she ended the affair, although I said I don't see why I need to help her with anything if she's living with them, as they're more than capable of helping her with any of her needs.

I expected her to continue to live with her parents. The main priority for me is killing the affair. I was not planning for her to have any desire to move back into our apartment.

Working on that right now.

That can be accomplished during this week.


No. My plan is to write it with her at 7 AM tomorrow morning and send it out.

I currently have not detected any attitude of repentance or truly wanting to stop from her.

I hope it's normal that I feel twinges of guilt for what happened today--I am not a controlling/manipulative person. One of my friends pointed out to me this evening, though, that I'm controlling the right things. I have to accept that this stuff is okay.

I'll be posting my letters which I will post out on Facebook shortly.

NO.
Do NOT let her return to the apartment if she is unwilling to meet your marital recovery conditions.

Otherwise she will be operating an affair from your apartment.

Listen you need to drive the marital recovery bus here or she will be in control.
Her parents don't know what to do so dont let them try to take control either

You have an active divorce petition in the court system.
She needs to agree to your conditions or be gone

You need to speak to her tomorrow when she does this NC letter.
If she is willing to permanently end her affair and commit to MB marriage then she can stay.
If not she goes and you enter immediate plan B.

Just remember you are in plan A right now. No disrespectful judgements or angry outbursts


Oh and for safety make sure you have an audio recorder hidden on you at all times

Letter for his parents, via Facebook:

Dear family of OM:

It grieves me to write this letter, but I believe OM's family should know the kind of person he really is. Bradd had an affair with my wife, WW, from February 2012 until September. She asked me for a divorce in April. My wife and I have been married 7 years, and this affair has almost wrecked our marriage.

I would be happy to provide the evidence to anyone who asks.

Please feel free to call me at AAA-BBB-CCCC.

Thank you,
BH

Letter for his friends/family via FB:

Dear friend/family of OM:

It grieves me to write this letter, but I believe all of OM's friends should know the kind of person he really is. Bradd had an affair with my wife, WW, from February 2012 until September. She asked me for a divorce in April. I believe that his friends should know this, so you can protect your marriage from him. My wife and I have been married 7 years, and this affair has almost wrecked our marriage.

I would be happy to provide the evidence to anyone who asks.

I would appreciate it if someone would notify his parents and ask them to call me at AAA-BBB-CCCC.

Thank you,
BH

Letter for OM's workplace - this is not a workplace affair, but frequent electronic communication took place during work hours:

To Whom It May Concern:

This letter is to bring a matter to your attention that may be a violation of your Company's Code of Conduct and/or other policies, procedures and business ethics.

OM, one of your interns, has been involved in an extramarital affair with WW, which has taken place during work hours, starting in February 2012. This may present an inappropriate use of company resources and assets. OM is using company time to further the affair. If you check the call histories on his office and cell phones along with their workstation computers, you will find the two of them are spending an inordinate amount of what should be productive work time to send e-mail, text messages, and other electronic communication to further their sexual relationship.

If you have any questions, please call me at AAA-BBB-CCCC. Otherwise, I will anticipate a response from you once you have investigated these concerns and taken appropriate corrective action.

Regards,
BH

Letter for WW's friends/family:

Dear friends and family,

I am writing you this message because you are an important person in the lives of WW and I. As some of you know, WW has recently asked me for a divorce, in April, which has shattered my heart. To my shock, I am saddened to have discovered that the reason is because she has been carrying on an affair with OM since March. The purpose of the separation and divorce was so that she can carry on her affair without my interference.

I want our marriage to recover from this affair. If you have any influence on my babe, please do what you can to get her to stop this dangerous affair. I want to stay married, but the affair must end for good.

As our friends and family, I am asking that you use your influence with WW to persuade her to end her affair for good and try to work on our marriage. Our marriage can be salvaged if she would only end the affair. Please support her in doing the right thing. Please support our marriage.

I would so appreciate your support and prayers.

Warmest regards,
BH

I need some help with the Facebook message to family/friends. The draft letter on Exposure 101 implies WW hasn't done anything to end the affair, but that happened about 7 - 8 hours ago before I could get all these messages out.

OK. I will paste my proposed NC letter in a moment.

Yep! Really helps, actually.

I should have recorded more of the babble today, will start immediately.

NC letter to print and registered mail tomorrow + send e-mail/Facebook message:

OM,

I want you to know that out of respect and love for my husband, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that my husband, BH, did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BH for the pain I caused him, I will do my best to become the wife he has been missing. I care a great deal for my husband and I would not want to do anything to risk his happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely,
WW

I have no idea why WW filled out the emotional needs questionnaire, but here are the results. Of course, she circled "d" (I am happy not having my spouse meet this need) and scribbled "I don't want BH to do this" in the comments section. But that's to be expected after fresh, unexpected exposure and cutting off of affair, probably.

It looks like my best avenues are Conversation and Domestic Support. I am guessing WW will start desiring Affection and R.C. within a week or two.

Affection: 5 - do not want
Sexual fulfilment: 1 - do not want
Conversation: 6 - would like to have some of this
Recreational Companionship: 4 - do not want
Honesty & Openness: 4 - Being honest means I get hurt
Attractive Spouse: 2 (clothes + hairstyle + hygiene)
Financial Support: 6 (currently - change to 2 when I get a job)
Domestic Support: 3 - please dust apartment & keep it clean
Admiration: 4

Ranking:

#1: Conversation / Financial Support
#2: Affection
#3: Admiration
#4: Recreational Companionship
#5: Honesty & Openness

As for remorse, it is Possible that she wil never show remorse.
Immediately following separation from the affair partner (true no contact) the wayward spouse becomes depressed.

My Ex wife was so depressed during one fake recovery that she layed on the couch for days.

I really fully expect this to be a false recovery.

She certainly is trying to act depressed.

I recently wrecked my car, and it's going to be a while until it's fixed. Legally and per our settlement, we share our vehicles until the end of the year. That leaves us with just "her" car right now. (I paid for both of them, fix both of them, we just allocated one vehicle to me and the other to her when the divorce is final.)

Is it reasonable to leave her without a car? Her sister and her mother seem capable of driving her around if she needs to get to a job interview.

You're in Plan A. Help her with the car.

Letters look good. Watch your snooping. You are a fast learner and you will see the flags.

Keep it up.

Help her with the car but don't leave her alone to drive to OM.

In my false recovery my wife "needed time to herself" (aka sex with OM)

In a true recovery DR Harley recommends a out of town vacation.
Can you do this?

An out of town vacation would be quite possible. I'm self employed and my main client has me there 4 days a week, so I can swing a Friday or a Monday and make a long weekend out of it.

Last I spoke to her, my WW doesn't consider us married and the only reason she is doing this is because she doesn't want to erase all hope that I'll help her financially in the future. I may need to give her some time.

Aiming for all of the OM's friends whose pictures have kids/husbands/wives etc. I'm just plain too tired to send out 500 messages tonight. Probably will get 100 done.

... and one of WW and OM's mutual friends responded on Facebook to WW's FB account. Lovely:

"Hey OM/WW:

I'm sure you've already had a bunch of inboxes about this...but just in case, I wanted to make sure that you knew. I received this from BH within the past hour or so, and have not responded. I kind of wanted to know what you would want me to say, if anything at all...whatever would make the situation easier. Just let me know. I hope that his reaching out to people on Facebook doesn't cause any issues for the two of you. Let me know how to proceed, if at all...and that is the route I will take. Anyway, let me know. I hope all is well, aside from this crap.

Rob"

Haha "hope it doesn't cause any issues for the two of you"

WW alerady agreed to let me monitor her Facebook. I'm in Plan A. Do I even say anything? Is she supposed to respond a certain way? Keep in mind I am not interested in being controlling/telling her what to do. I am interested in her developing her own healthy habits of behaviour.

I should add that she's always had access to the apartment and I never really "threw her out"--she threw herself out the week she asked for the divorce; couch-surfed with friends for 4 - 5 weeks, then moved in with her parents. She's on the lease and I didn't change the locks (no reason to).

I'm just shocked she's decided to stay here. I'm trying to use it strategically to my best advantage (knowledge of her nighttime activities; access to computer; more opportunities to meet her emotional needs, etc.)

Questions on No Contact from the help for newly betrayed spouses thread.


(1) Can be done. OK to make the old e-mail address forward to me? She doesn't want to miss important non-affair-related e-mail.
(2) Ditto, self-employed, so old e-mail address can forward to me
(3) Can be done.
(4) Already done
(5) I have access to Facebook and don't want to demand it stop yet, as it's been useful for exposure. However I like the idea of a joint Facebook.
(6) No home phone to worry about.

How strict should I be about demanding the above?

What is your motivation here? Do you want to stay married? It seems to me she just wants help paying down her debt and getting financial support until she leaves you.

That would not be my cup o tea...

I never agreed to pay down any debt or give any financial support. I just said I'm 100% out of the picture unless these changes happen.

I'm not really sure what she's hoping for. I do have a desire to cooperate on financial matters when it's to our mutual benefit. But that is all.

I decided to expose because it seemed like the right thing to do for her. At least now she has a shot at actually figuring out her own life, instead of just drifting from a marriage straight into an affair.

Well, FB finally politely asked me to slow down with sending messages, so this BH is turning in for the night.

Friends and family are already sending messages to WW. I can read them and know what's going on. I guess I'll find out who in our friends and family are the supporters of marriage and who isn't. In accordance with Plan A, I'm not going to tell her to respond a certain way, unless you guys think I should.

If your only intention of doing this is to make her a better person then I would encourage you to stop now.
If you honestly have NO intention Of saving your marriage then you should jut walk away after exposure.

If you want to have a loving romantic marriage where both of your needs are met then you need to get the NC letter and her agreement to MB recovery, as outlined in SAA book.

Also I encourage you to take a 2 week vacation if at all possible.

NC letter e-mailed and sent via registered mail, with signature, this morning. Normal fogbabble comments made, but I'm learning those comments just come out of hurt & anger, and to ignore them.

I want to have a loving, romantic marriage. I want to have such a marriage with my first and only wife. I am trying to be realistic about the stage the divorce is at.

How long is too long for her to agree to MB recovery? Currently she is making statements out of hurt/pain/depression/anger:

"Since you forced me to sign this no-contact letter, we will never be friends."
"I don't want to be your wife, and because of what you did to me I never will."
"I don't agree with anything in this letter. I'm just signing it and sending it because you are my meal ticket."

The only change she made to the NC letter was to replace "my husband" with my first name. I decided this was an acceptable compromise.

She has agreed to a lot, but not everything. Here is progress so far:

AGREED: 1. End all contact with OM2, OM1, and any other affair partners, emotional or otherwise, for life.

AGREED: 2. No more nights apart or going out with each other. Instead, create a healthy integrated lifestyle.

AGREED: 3. Complete transparency: share cell phones, texts, passwords, Facebook, etc.

AGREED: 4. No more opposite sex friendships.

AGREED: 5. Complete honesty about your affairs, emotional or otherwise (pass a polygraph)

NOT YET AGREED: 6. Commit to a program like Marriage Builders for recovery as outlined in Dr. Hurley's book, "Surviving an Affair". If you would like a copy, I can get you one.

I have only asked for #6 in my original e-mail to her where I explained what it will take to keep me in this marriage.

Her family (and my mother in law) are irate about the exposure that happened last night.

I do not feel asking her to be isolated from her family right now is the right call, and it feels like a selfish demand. Thoughts?

Kick her out.
She said she is signing it because you are her meal ticket?
She is not on board. I think her parents kicked her [censored] out and that's why she came back.

The same thing happened to me. My wife refused to sign the SAA letter, and was full of resentment. It was a false recovery because OM had kicked her out (dumped her). They quickly got back together (he liked screwing her , just not living with her). They quickly resumed their relationship and today are living together.

The mistake I made was in taking her back in the first place without her meeting all of the conditions for recovery. And it's all in or nothing. If she is unwilling to agree to a MB recovery then there is nothing to work on because it take two.

I'm curious to see what melodylane thinks but I think you need to hold the line and insist on all or nothing, or she leaves. In a loving but firm manner.

Example (what I actually told my ex wife). "I am willing to work with you to create a loving and healthy marriage where both of our needs are met and we must follow the recovery program in the surviving an affair book in order to do so "

They often are. Families often have unhealthy things called "family secrets" where its the family vs the world and nobody can know the secrets.
Oftentimes families will hide pedophiles, drug addicts, alcoholics etc against outsiders looking in.
I see this often in AlAnon where an alcoholic will literally bankrupt and destroy a family and the spouse will make excuses and try to cover it up to appear "normal".

If someone tells a lie, that is a reason to be angry. If its the truth then what can they complain about?

People try to control situations.
Your MIL probably thinks thy since she made her daughter move back in with you then there is no need for exposure.

If she asks I would just say (as I told my inlaws) "I am following a marriage recovery program developed by experts" and leave it at that. Don't try to sell them on it or discuss it further.

WW just e-mailed me: "I have decided to delete my Facebook account. I think this is the best way for me to "keep clean" and save what little dignity I have left. I won't delete it until I get a response from you." Thoughts?

FB was not an affair tool, but the activity on FB is probably very painful for WW to watch. E.g. photos of her w/ OM from last week being tagged by the person who photographed them.

So let her

Ok. They have been in favour of the divorce since WW asked for it (long before the affair was known). They think I'm the cause of her misery because of financial setbacks, working long hours, staying out with my buddies late at night, and making a lot of selfish demands.

I don't really believe a word she says right now. She's also said she wants to kill herself, that her life is over, that ending the affair is the right choice, but she's too weak of a person to make the right choice, etc.

I would prefer to evaluate her behaviour, not her words.

No, they didn't. They just put a requirement that she end the affair and that she actively look for a job. I have the same requirements, plus a lot more.

I'm surprised she's making any attempt right now to make this work at all.


I'm curious as well.

Thanks RQ.

Wow, this whole thread is one giant **edit** from the original poster to some of the replies. It's really hard to follow what is going on.

If I get this right, then the divorce has been filed and is just waiting for the court to approve it. Your WW has given you not one shred of hope that she will change her mind, and she's not going to. Neither of you have made any move to halt the divorce process, in fact you've made it very clear that all steps have been expedited.

So, you are not in any "plan A" or "plan B", you are in plan D. In plan D your goals need to have shifted dramatically. You are no longer interested in saving the marriage or preserving any love you have left for you spouse, you are well past that.

Now the goal is to get through the divorce process with share of custody that you want with any children, and keeping as much money in your current and future pockets as possible. Take emotions out of it, divorce should be thought of as a business deal. With that goal in mind, you don't need to be doing anything that does not further these goals.

If you that close to divorce, then why is she moving back in? Why would either of you find it necessary for her to agree to your conditions? Why the no contact letter? Why even break up the affair? A foggy spouse is much more likely to agree to a favorable settlement.

Marriage Builders concepts and steps are for saving marriages. You need another plan to facilitate a divorce.

Thanks for your frankness, schtoop.

We don't have any children.

Our settlement got negotiated, executed, notarised, and then filed within 4 weeks of her announcing she wanted to file.

I have not given up on the marriage. After snooping on her FB last night, I learned that neither had she, or at least that's what she told one of her friends. She felt like asking me for a divorce was the best way to make me know this is serious enough to have any hope of ever reconciling. With the same friend, she was in a state of denial about admitting the timing of the affair.

I know for a fact that, prior to the divorce, I was not meeting her ENs, that I was engaging in selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, angry outbursts, and annoying behaviour, and independent behaviour. I believe that made her more vulnerable to getting her ENs met elsewhere, and I believe a combination of my behaviour and the affair led to her choosing divorce.

Of course after writing the NC letter this morning she informed me because of that, any possibility of a relationship, let alone reconciliation, between us is over. But I'm interpreting that as fogbabble.

I don't really know how to navigate a situation where a divorce is finalised within 4 weeks (there wasn't really much I could do to delay it--I could have added on 30 days, but there wasn't anything to contest.) I acted out of a bit of fear to get it filed whilst she was completely willing to agree to a fair settlement. I have wanted to save the marriage since the day she asked for a divorce, but I know ultimately if she wants a divorce no matter what, she can leave and I can't stop her.

2 days after exposure.

WW is still extremely depressed (barely eaten, a lot of sleep, etc.). I understand this is normal.

She's agreed to MB (finally got books today; I knew nothing about MB until a week ago today), but she also says "I don't like", "don't love you", etc.

Her cousin offered to let her move and give her a job as a nanny in exchange for money/room/boards. Likewise her sister offered to let her move in (in another state). Her parents' door is also open, as long as the affair is not ongoing. Those are their terms.

Doing my best to meet her top ENs in any way I can & not do LBs (cutting out annoying behaviours is probably the hardest for me. E.g. being a lousy driver. So I'm focusing on that the most.)

She's spending most of her time with her mom and her sister/baby nephews. Evenings around me in our apt.

What are some ways to meet affection (a top EN) without touching? We are doing OK with conversation (a top EN for both of us & she is ok with receiving it from me).

Love notes, phone calls, flowers, just general gestures to show you care.

Are you confirming that she is where she says she is (mom's, etc)?

Q, try to spend as much time with her as you can. Relatives offering her a soft landing by allowing her to go live with them will not help recovery. Can you explain this to them?

Vacation.
Dr Harley recommends a vacation following an afair

But here is the question.
You say she has agreed to MB recovery. Is this correct?

Ok. I have been doing this (similar to a "Love Dare") since the day she said she wanted out of the marriage. I am stepping up my game a notch. It's also a lot easier to do these things when I know where she is.

So far, yes, and no transgressions observed. She hasn't been anywhere except our apartment and her parents' house since Sunday night. Her sister has been over to see her every day. I consider her sister & husband an ally.

I rearranged my work schedule so I can consistently be home by 6 PM, and e-mail/text her with all my planned whereabouts, and have cancelled any after-work plans that wouldn't include her.

The one cousin really dislikes me and wants to offer her a way to go live with her & husband/kids and give her a job & continue the affair. WW has elected not to move in with her.

Her sister has offered to let her move to Hawai'i and help her find a job there. WW has elected not to do that either. That sister won't listen to me.

Her parents don't really like me right now and think she should get divorced from me because I've "always been controlling and you ruined the happy girl that married you". They will let her live with them as long as there is no affair. WW has elected not to live with them.

Working on this. We have enough frequent flyer miles to go pretty much anywhere in the world, thanks to my independent behaviour for the last two years. I would like to come to an enthusiastic agreement with her on where we go and what we can afford.

Recommendations on types of vacation? Cruise, hotel in another country, ... ?

Yes, agreed to MB recovery. Although she isn't too familiar with MB yet. I did just get the books. She hasn't done much reading at all. Her grief counsellor assigned a book for her to read and she couldn't get past the first page; she asked me to read it to her, which I did.

She still says she doesn't want to be my wife and doesn't feel like she can ever love me again.

I am planning to watch the videos on the MB site with her tonight. I would like to get the MB coaching started as soon as possible, but I feel I should at least get part-way through the books first. Thoughts?

Well some people like to read.
Others like to listen.
So if she is not reading then I would do a marriage coaching , schedule it today, and a vacation ASAP

EDIT: Just sent in coaching request for either tomorrow or next Monday or Tuesday.

Will plan the vacation tonight w/ her. Seems like POJA applies to that situation...

Coaching session Monday morning. Hope the principle of POJA doesn't apply to that: "I don't want to though, but if you're telling me it's a requirement, I will have to agree to it."

We did POJA the date and time of the appointment.

Great job, Q!

Thanks for the encouragement!! To anyone reading this: DO WHAT EVERYONE HERE IS TELLING YOU... not moving out of our shared home, exposing to anyone and everyone, all at once, enumerating my demands for making the marriage work (including MB!!!) were critical!

9/4: I discovered MB forums, made my first post
9/5: E-mail sent w/ 6 demands for ME to stay in this marriage
9/6: Ordered MB books, watched all the videos & lots of radio clips on MB website
9/9: Started Plan A, total exposure, affair cut off, W moves home
9/10: W sends no contact letter & email to OM. UA zooms up to several hours a day.
9/11: Got impatient w/ mail and bought MB books at bookstore
9/12: W agrees to all 6 demands including MB & MB coaching

I am also feeling genuine love and affection to a degree I haven't felt for a while... the "love dare" I did for the last 17 weeks worked to help me feelings, but lots of UA time + no LBs from me + hunting for how to meet W's ENs has made me feel like I'm falling in love all over again.

X2

Today: sent a few positive-minded texts throughout the day and an e-card telling W I had a surprise. Called her when I left the office to let her know when I'd be home. Arrived about 5 minutes earlier than that. Picked up a small gift (T-shirt) & card at the gift shop at work (I work at corporate HQ for a major retailer).

Read out loud the section in HNHN on affection do's and don'ts. W elaborated at length habits she wants me to create, things that are OK/tolerable, and things to avoid. To my surprise, some touching is OK! Sometimes hugging/holding/hand-holding is OK, just please ask first. She also listed all the different kinds of gifts she likes.

Vacation: She isn't sure she can do a week and doesn't want to miss much work, so she wants to do a 4-day length trip. I plan to continue to negotiate this but not do anything without POJA. I am shooting for a one-week trip (I started the convo wanting 2 weeks). I suggested Italy, but she wants to make her first trip to Italy with her dad (his grandmother was born there). More POJA needed here.

PA EN: Said I have my needs met in this area. We then discuss her tattoo which she wants to get finished which has always been a sore point with me. I didn't like them when we met. We spent almost an hour with her explaining what it means and her drawing out how she'd like to get it finished. I said this would be a great thing for us to discuss further and I'd like to be there with her when it gets finished. After this, she REALLY opened up.

Domestic support: hates dust, loves dishwashing, loves furniture looking nice. We then spent about a half hour fluffing up our sofa cushions, pulling feathers off them, beating them outside, and vacuuming them. I wanted to cook a meal and she suggested a recipe and then showed me in detail how to do everything just so. Then she grabbed the circulars from the mail and spent about a half hour showing me her coupon-clipping and grocery-store-analysing system. I'm clueless on how to save money shopping for groceries, and I feel like I learned quite a bit from her.

Financial support: outside of the obvious "please pay my debts off", W said please pay bills PROMPTLY (when the bill comes, not on the due date), and would prefer to pay bills together rather than work over e-mail (unlike the past 2 months). She also got the energy today to start applying for jobs, and realised that since she isn't out all night anymore, she can work a job that requires being up early, or requires being available to work some evenings.

Conversation: Both of us are OK with our needs in this department. I talked about how I used to talk lots to opposite sex friends in the past, and that I am not doing this anymore, and let her know 3 people I've cut off contact with. She seemed somewhat pleased & surprised at this.

Rec. Comp.: Would like to watch a new TV show she likes with me plus some independent movies. We also agreed that we both love singing in the car. I spontaneously did it yesterday for the first half of a drive somewhere, and she did it for the drive back. She'd also like to share the recorded songs she's really "feeling" with me. Has a documentary she wanted to watch tonight, but before we knew it was midnight.

Weekend plans: I suggested museum of art in a city an hour north; she said she wants to do one in a city two hours southwest and she seemed pretty happy about going. Two hours of UA in the car instead of one? Yes ma'am! So that's where we're doing Saturday.

Sunday she had a plan to spend the whole day w/ extended family. I said that was fine, but we need to spend the day together. She said I would not be welcome around them. So we agreed she wouldn't go. We discussed churches to go to but haven't agreed on one.

Annoying behaviours: Really doesn't like having her body stared at during conversation.

Her birthday in a few weeks: Would like me to put on a small celebration w/ her immediate family (sister + husband + kids, parents), at our apartment.

There's plenty more, but it sure is nice to see her this way. I feel like this marriage can be saved. Meeting your spouse's ENs is FUN!

FYI. The POJA does apply to affair recovery in the following manner. The wayward spouse must agree to a full MB recovery plan to stay married. If there is not enthusiastic agreement there is divorce or separation.

The exceptions to the POJA are health and safety, or affairs. In the case of affairs the betrayed spouse must make demands to end the affair and meet recovery guidelines.

You and WW seem to be flying back together. Keep up the "Plan A" activities. Ex: Send her a note today telling her how much you enjoyed the frank and open discussions of last night.

As for this:

Annoying behaviours: Really doesn't like having her body stared at during conversation.

That annoys me as well!

Sounds great Q, keep up the good work.

Q,


Having a program for recovery (namely MB) as a requirement for reconciliation is not subject to POJA - requirements set forth by the BS to the WS for reconciliation after an affair are non-negotiable, nor should they be.

Already done. Plan A is in full force!


Okay. This is what I have been trying to figure out.

1 long week (two weekends) vacation being planned for 10/4 - 10/16 type of time frame. May be forced to move it up sooner depending on W's job situation.

Spending Saturday in a city two hours away.

One big problem for us: our apartment is immediately next door to a coffee house/bar where she used to do musical performances, often with OM. They have open mic nights every Thursday (including last night). W was in a FOUL mood last night, although it was not directed towards me in the slightest.

I did not see OM's car anywhere and he didn't perform, and I doubt he'll be around (the owners of this establishment are friends and probably don't want their high-class coffee house/wine tasting establishment to have a reputation as a house of adultery), but I feel the memories for are painful. I am personally OK with living next door to it.

Do we need to move, and how soon?

Yes I would plan to move.

Dr. Harley will recommend moving especially if there's a chance of APs to run into each other. Isn't your lease about up?

Our lease is in a month-to-month kind of situation and it's only $350/mo.

Moving out of apartment + picking new place to go to will be difficult to come to joint agreement on. Would it be wise to not broach the topic until after our first coaching session next week?

The most sensible option to me would seem to be to relocate to a city an hour north where I work. Shorten my commute, also easier for W to find jobs up there.

Yea. You need to move away and never visit the place again.
My wife also washed an affair with a musician. His music is terrible. He sings about drugs and booze and sounds awful but it seems to be prevalent with these bar musicians

Making plans to move away. POJAing it will be an adventure! Cleveland has many wonderful neighbourhoods to choose from, although it seems I'll have to avoid places with the whole live-music scene (which we both love) for good. It just seems like it'd be very triggering for her.

These musicians sure are a piece of work. OM is 30, and lives with mommy and step-dad (I think, he doesn't share his mother's last name). His step-dad got rich in some Internet scheme back in the day. OM works as an intern off-and-on.

I make myself feel better by comparing my vocal talent to his. (I'm better.)

I wouldn't necessarily avoid the live music scene. It's something important to both of you and a great opportunity to share recreational companionship.

Just make sure you always enjoy the scene together. No more nights of her going out listening or performing without you.

Thanks--I'll keep that in mind. Currently there's a "wall" up that WW is choosing to not do these things at all, rather than do them with me.

How long does the withdrawal phase last? SAA advises implementing Plan A for 3 - 6 months for BHs.

Our first session with Steve went well (I advise anyone else in my situation to come up with some way to do it. Well worth the $)

Things seem to gradually be getting better and there's a lot more conversation between us, especially of the laughter variety or the inner, deep secrets variety. Things are back to "normal" with me being around my WW's parents/sister/nephews etc.

WW still keeps steadfastly talking about how she'll have her own independent life when divorce is final. I have heard a few cracks in the armour, like when WW asked how exactly a dating relationship with us would work post-divorce, and we discussed the prospect of living together unmarried. (I said I would do no such thing and she agreed.)

Probably will not be moving in the next few months, and it looks like vacations will be limited to 2 or 3 day weekend getaways at the very most for now.

Hope this is all normal. It's been 10 days since exposure.

Thanks to everyone here for helping me believe a bereaved spouse can actually do this, and for helping me believe a wayward spouse is capable of falling in love again.

I think it would be a trigger.
My ww had an affair with a guitar player and she was hooked on his heavy metal music from then on. Her personality actually changed.
I would be careful for a while.

I would move and find a place quite a distance away from the venue and find new venues where she can perform with your presence in the place. It could be quality time together.

(But write off the place she went to with OM).

Moving's going to be a sore point w/ WW. When's the right time to bring it up? She really likes our apartment.

She doesn't seem too interested in performing right now but I bet that will change. Unfortunately, venues where she performed with OM is basically "all of them" within a 20 mile radius.

We'll probably have to move an hour north and she'll need to transfer jobs. The sorest point for WW will be that she'll be moving from being 2 minutes from her parents to being an hour away.

Moving's going to be a sore point w/ WW.

Somehow, the "teary-sympathy" app on my smartphone seems to be malfunctioning!

With actions come consequences. Part of coming out of the affair fog is acknowledging and accepting (even begrudgingly) that the prior life will suffer from the fallout.

OM made a pathetic attempt to communicate with WW. As far as I can tell, she hasn't reciprocated.

He found photos of her posted by other people on Facebook, and left comments on them (where nobody else is commenting) enumerating where he'll be playing at open mic nights.

I was going to just ignore it, and WW untagged herself in the photos. But I read Northwind's post in The Exposure Hurdle: Success Stories and got inspired.

Should I call up OM and give him a piece of my mind? I foresee our conversation being of the variety of "Stop attempting to communicate with my wife. Comprende?"

Oh, and the weasel has avoided picking up the Registered Mail no-contact letter sent to his/his mom's house.

Q - yes call, do nothing in writing.

Also wanted to just let you know that kiss had been plan b'd by me earlier in the year (see my sig), he is just doing a piss-poor job of working on a marriagebuilders recovery. He doesn't think it's important(!)

~RQ

I would absolutely attend an "open mic" night. I would follow his performance with a song of my own creation, entitled, "The Scumbag Who Just Performed Will Bone Your Wife If He Gets a Chance". It's a clever little ditty which I've prepared in rock and acoustic versions!

But that's just me....

Q,

Have you seen this?
"I Encourage BH to Confront OM" Dr. Harley

You kid, friend, but I just might actually do this.

Is calling him from her phone's caller ID a good or a bad idea?

Something tells me he'll be more likely to pick it up if he sees her number.

Has she blocked OM on Facebook? Everytime she sees him it will reignite her feelings for him.

Yes, she has removed him (not sure of the nature of the block but I'll check it out more closely). She doesn't really want to see Facebook and removed the app from her phone and hasn't gone to it on her laptop. I'm the only using her FB account these days.

She still uses her FB account username/password for Instagram and Pinterest, which, as far as I can tell, are entirely harmless.

I would block him. If she just removes him his posts on friends information/picture she will still his posts.

Another option is getting a joint account or deleting Facebook all together.

Yes, you should call him up.

"Hey, OM? Hey it's Qoheleth, it's about time I got to hear your sniveling little sh*t a** voice. WTF do you think you're doing talking to my wife? You are just begging for an as* kicking because there are four of us here that would just love to pound your little as s into the ground. You'd better back the f off because if I get so much as a mouse fart's whiff of you again you're going to regret it."

Well, that's what I told my OM but do what you think is best.

It shouldn't take you but fifteen seconds to get your point across and really needs to be done.

You think I kid, Q? I believe you have me confused with one of the more rational posters here.

This thread sums up my tenuous grasp of socially acceptable behavior.

Tell you what, give me POSOM's first name, and I will compose some lyrics. Someone else will have to do the score!

Performed a cappella would do just fine, NG. Put it on youtube or something, sharing the link with us when it's done.

For $5 on fiverr you can have someone call the guy at midnight yelling.
That's a good option

Do without Facebook.
They are tagged in photos together and it's a modern day singles bar.
My wife's affair started on Facebook. Cut it out before she becomes addicted to it

Moving 1 hour is not 60 miles is not enough distance. You need to move 1,000 miles. To hard to hook up by car and flying and car rental/cabs to expensive.

If I read the story correctly, though they already did a significant move to get away from a different someone - is that right Q?

The issue is not really how far they are from OM (of course they should avoid triggers) but whether their marriage can develop the habits and routines that will protect it from affairs - with anyone.

No they haven't moved.

Oh, WAH WAH. Maybe she should have thought about that before she inflicted this damage on your marriage.

Q, if she wants to [censored] and moan about the move then I would simply turn to her and say, "You don't have to come if you don't want to". I do believe you are in a position where you would say that.

Then go back to packing.

Remember, this isn't part of POJA. This is a part of YOUR conditions for even attempting marital recovery. Your conditions are NON- NEGOTIABLE and not subject to POJA.

Lay down the law. If she doesn't like it, well freakin' tough. She can figure out how to survive without you.

This. You have no reason to be polite to this jerk.

Being an hour away is no trouble for an affair.
My wifes affair partner lived an hour away.
It's not far enough.
If you want to stay married you need to move out of state

Hell, I would take a couple of friends to his next little sing-a-long and get in his face. Screw the phone.

Even better!

The problem is scumbags like OM don't care.

I think your best option is to just get away , far away from him.
And if she cheats again it's a permanent deal breaker

We moved away in 2009 just to get away from everything and get a "fresh start". Lo and behold, a strictly Internet EA took place with OM1, 2,000 miles away, within a year.

It seems to me that no amount of distance will cure affairs of a primarily emotional nature--the opportunity's always going to be there, and is just a click away.

OM lives in about an hour away , and apparently he's no longer welcome at the coffee shop we live close to. I don't think the trigger will be an issue.

At this point, I feel a lot more threatened by an affair with a new person than with OM1 or OM2. For example, my (F?)WW is starting a new job soon. That's got me far more paranoid right now.

What's the status of the divorce filing?

The last 2 1/2 weeks have been mostly positive.

One of *MY* now-former friend (we'll call him 5thYearSenior) sent a message to my F?WW from OM a week ago, stating "We all miss you and Bradd missed you too.". F?WW deleted the message and saved a copy of it in the "Notes" app on her iPhone. Not really trying to hide it, but not exactly open/honest either.

When I found it and confronted, she said she was worried I'd get really upset if she knew my former friend had passed on the message.

After that, I said no more negotiation on EPs. She changed her phone number and got a new one. I then basically demanded she tell me the true extent of the physical nature of the affair. Lo and behold, I FINALLY got told things that were NOT things I had already discovered on my own. It was nice to have closure about that.

There has been infinitely more openness and honesty on her part since then.

Unfortunately, there have been a lot more Love Busters on my part too. I really need help there with this, guys. I get upset when my need for affection/non-sexual touching isn't met. I haven't had an angry outburst, but I've not been a pleasant person to be around the last three nights.

I'm 3 weeks into Plan A here, so there just plain isn't any room right now for $LB withdrawals--for any reason.

Oh, and yes, I plan to tear my former friend a new one, but he's been too chicken to answer my phone calls so far.

It's completely final. Divorce decree finally showed up in the mail on Monday (which, admittedly, did not improve my mood). Final date is 1/1/2013.

Lease on apartment will be over by then, although one of us could choose to stay month-to-month.

Financially, arrangements are made and final too, and F?WW starts her new job stocking shelves on 10/8. Her job and mine have compatible hours/schedules, which is quite fortunate. There's really not much left legally or financially that's joint between us.

If there's a repeat affair, I'm going straight into extremely dark Plan B+D.

If the progress I've seen of my F?WW in the last 2 1/2 weeks continues, we'll have to figure out what two people in love with each other do when they're suddenly no longer married. I really have no idea what to do then. I'm trying to focus on the right now instead of worrying about the future.

Oh, and 5thYearSenior dude and I are definitely no longer friends afer our brief "conversation". Good riddance.

HDW--I think we might be neighbours--I'm in northeast Ohio, in case you didn't already guess.

Good that she changed her number and good that you called out fifthyear on his crappy friendship.

I'll leave the boys to chime in on the other things. But just keep trying, Q. She'll start to notice the needs you are meeting in her and start to reciprocate.

We'll have to figure out what two people in love with each other do when they're suddenly no longer married...If there's a repeat affair, I'm going straight into extremely dark Plan B+D.

Oh, brother! Do I detect the sickly-sweet aroma of a BH holding out the olive-branch of an "amicable divorce" to the woman whose actions tore apart their marriage, who betrayed her vows with some 3rd-rate musician, with whom he has no children to entangle their futures, and without whose future anguishes (and they will be arriving) he can most certainly do without?

Your mindset is giving her no reason to work to fix what she broke, even at this late date. Your current attitude toward her (the "stick" of Plan A) must be: "If, and when, that gavel comes down, Toots, I will turn and walk away from you as the worst decision I ever made."

You sure do! That's exactly what I did on 6/8/12, over three months ago. Eventually the paperwork came through. Keep in mind our divorce went from "I want a divorce" to "Final judgment is coming in the mail" in just over three weeks.

Then I discovered the affair, and then I discovered Marriage Builders and Dr Harley. I wish I'd known about MB back then. Or, heck, before I got married.

The gavel's already come down.

I've made it abundantly clear that if she wants to leave, well, anything between us is over for good, and that if I find out about another affair, I will do whatever is best for me and I will be forced to stop caring about her or her best interests.

It's not productive for she and I to talk about this regularly. So far she's been trying pretty hard.

Whoa...didn't realize that the divorce was at the end here.

Q, you married in 2006 and she's been cheating on you since 2008, right?

She's had quite a run there, hoss. You'll probably do well stepping out of the way for good.

FYI, Q, today's First Reading at a Catholic mass is Eccl 1:2-11, including "Nothing is new under the sun." Your nickname selection has puzzled me until today.

Yes we are neighbors. I was going to offer to help you burn all of your wayward wife's belongings in a good riddance bonfire. But, you did an excellent job and now you don't need a bonfire! You followed the program and it worked! Now you have to continue to follow it.

As for post marriage relationship I would caution you NOT to downgrade into a shack up relationship. Your actions have saved your marriage. I suggest you ask her if she wants to remain married. If so, remarriage and a commitment to following the MB Program would be very appropriate

Oh I just read this.
She is not being open and she is not over him.
My wife also did this; she was saving a picture of her OM on her phone. He now lives with him. Your wife was saving that letter for an emotional attachment.

I think you should call Dr Harley or email the radio show for advice.
He has dealt with similar scenarios numerous times.
After finding this note I would not remarry her again. You do not want to have a false recovery.

You need to send him an email, listing:
*length of marriage
*history of affairs (2009 and EA and this one and all others)
*brief explanation of how you had filed for divorce, found the website and initiated plan A, wife returned home and agreed to conditions.
* after returning home you know she receives and SAVED a letter
* divorce is final in January
What are his recommendations?

As for your need for sex, I completely understand.
It can really frustrate men that their wives won't have sex with them
But they'll jump in bed with their scumbag affair partners.

Recovery is hard. You have to bite your tongue if needed to avoid love busters.

I would ask her for a poly. Polygraph Testing


Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

Ok. I am currently doing coaching with Steve. His opinion so far is that it's just too soon to have any useful data. For example, the first week post-exposure (when I found the note), my F?WW has said many things that I have had to choose to ignore, or that don't make sense.

Since 9/25, my F?WW seems to have made a decision to make the end goal of this having a good relationship with me vs. getting something that she wants (either money, or fear of me trying to destroy her life post-divorce).

I have no idea what to do post-divorce. I plan to defer to Steve's advice and/or e-mail the radio show for more input into that situation.

A big part of me desires to let someone else create the conditions that will make me fall in love with them next year. If my F?WW wants to do it, great.

I am feeling my Love Bank balance dropping by the day. I have enough to make it a few more months, but I sure can't go on like this forever.

I am seeing the wisdom of Plan A followed by Plan B.

I am confused


What does this mean? Do you feel that there are inconsistencies to her story? If so, you need a polygraph and not choose to ignore it. You can not rebuild on a web of lies.

Is she saying you are her only option right now?
Be very very careful. You need to watch YOUR boundaries. Especially now. Do not let someone else meet your EN's or you will find yourself wayward.


Glad to hear that you are still plugging away at being the best husband you can be. That will hopefully break through her fogginess

~RQ

I hope she thinks that he is her only option, that's a great position for him to be in so long as he follows the MB plan.

I agree, but only for the short term. I wouldn't want to see Q settling for a love-less marriage. It's not marriage at all costs.

Things I heard in the week after exposure: "I'm never going to talk to you about anything except logistics [of divorce]." "I do not want to share any music with you." "I'm a prisoner in my own apartment!" "If I mess up in any little thing you've asked me you and your family will use your [wealth] to ruin my life forever." And on and on. So I didn't put much stock in what was said the first week. I interpreted it as fogbabble. For example, we've had many conversations since that initial "I will never talk to you again except about logistics [of divorce]" claim.

Polygraph is coming eventually but I don't think 3.5 weeks post-exposure is the right timing. I plan to do it around when the divorce is final, which would be about 3.5 months post-exposure / 3 months post-recovery.

No, she's recognised she could leave right now and figure out things on her own if she wants to.

I am being very, very careful to the point I simply don't have any friendships left with the opposite sex. I avoid talk beyond business with any of the women at work. And planning to keep it that way. If my F?WW decides to leave for good, and the divorce is final, I dunno, eventually some day I'll find love again.

I hope so too. I was moving her email from our old business account to an account that would belong just to her post-divorce and read a lot of sent messages sent back in 2006//2007. I can't believe how demanding I was back then and how accommodating she was.

I believe it takes, what, 3 - 6 months for feelings of romantic love to be restored in a loveless partner?

I can do what I'm doing until the end of the year. Frankly, if nothing changes, I think my Love Bank will be close to being depleted by the end of the year.

She says that she has to try extremely hard to choose to be around me or talk to me at all and that doing anything approaching affectionate touching is very difficult and emotionally draining for her. Which is fine - I understand how she feels that way right now.

Probably the hardest thing for me is when she wants to talk about what life will be like post-divorce. All I can say is that I don't know what it will be like. She regularly talks about how she would like to feel like she'll have financial security, a fully-furnished apartment, and a working car post-divorce.

I feel like that would be wonderful for her but I don't feel like I have anything to do with it.

I don't really know how to discuss this with her without entering LB territory.

"How you live your life if divorced is up to you. I'm not going to be around for any of it."

Statistically speaking, since he is on board as the husband, the chances of him "settling" or "being stuck" in a loveless marriage if he is FOLLOWING THE PLAN are slim to none. He will either lead the way to a romantic, interdependent marriage, or he'll get sick of her schlitz malt liquor and kick her to the curb.


This is assuming, of course, that the affair is as dead as Abe Lincoln's beard.

Why are you doing a poly post-D?

Your signature says your D is final 1/1/12???

3-6 months may be the time required for her to withdraw from her AP.

I cannot, offhand, recall seeing any dead-set timeframe for the restoration of romantic love, but I can tell you that until it is felt, you need to be working on getting 20+ hours of UA time in.


More UA time = bigger deposits = a larger LB$ account.


Reverse constructed from the more simple and understandable MB terminology - the more positively associated memories you can create with her, the faster she will associate you with good feelings and associate you with feelings of love.

A post D polygraph makes no sense. Why would she even agree to it?

'tis what I've said, although I don't care to keep repeating myself to her. She just seems to want some world where post-divorce we're "friends" and I'm still interested in doing nice things for her. I've made it clear there are 7 billion people in the world who need my charity and I will treat her equally along with the rest of them, post-divorce, unless we are in some kind of mutual romantic relationship.

I'm following the plan to the letter. I'm also seeing the complete brilliance in Dr Harley's books and plans. For example: after living Plan A for 3 - 6 months, you $LB will be depleted. It's a lot easier for husbands to enter Plan B at that point.

Unless my F?WW works for the CIA, it's dead.

In fact, Mr OM seems to be long gone - disappeared from social media and from the local open mic circuit. I don't know anything for a fact, but I suspect he either had a history of doing this with other people's women, he's having a difficult time at his job/internship, or mommy made some new "house rules" for her 30 year old son.

My signature was mistaken. It's final 1/1/13.

Which coincides nicely for the amount of time I plan to spend in Plan A.

We're pushing 30 hours of UA time per week. She says she's exhausted with how much time we spend together, just because "being around you is so hard for me".

Good things happening there--discovered new museums we like, new neighbourhoods in nearby cities, lovely autumn trips to pumpkin farms with nephews, and so on.

No harm in asking her how you can make it easier to be around you, eh?

I have asked that, but it's fairly clear I'm already doing everything she thinks would help.

As far as I can tell, from this point out, it's just gonna take time.

A few nights ago, F?WW expressed some affection via touching, which is a first ever.

F?WW seems quite conflicted as of late.

PMS is absolutely awful - emotions are heightened and F?WW feels like the best solution is for us to be separated. Of course, the door is always open, but I'm useless when it comes to improving her emotional state when she has that feeling that life would be better if I weren't around.

I hope my situation is on the 3 month side of the 3 - 6 month estimate.

If PMS is causing her emotional problems, she needs to see a doctor not make your life worse because of it.

Checking in for an update.

The problem I'm facing is that my F?WW is a compulsive liar. Now, she's gotten pretty good about telling the truth to me--although she still fibs, and it's about stuff she doesn't even need to.

For example: I asked her about a job she was interested in and encouraged her to apply. She applied a week later, yet told me she was doing something else. The reason was "I was worried you'd be mad if I applied for this job."

I have strong EPs and am confident there's no A going on. I did end up talking to her about her pattern of lying and she's been doing much better.

The problem is that she lies to EVERYONE ELSE! She fibs about small stuff and makes up big stuff. Her resume has misleading information about it about things like the years of employment, the type of position, etc. She referred to herself in a Craigslist ad as a "professional photographer", which is a bit of a stretch.

I fully understand I can't change her or fix her character or behavioural problems. And she's not lying to me, at the moment--in fact she's been doing great in the honesty department.

Thoughts?

Have you read about the different kind of liars?
Honesty and Openness Part #2

She should see a psychologist for that. It's probably a personality disorder of some kind. Most adult children of alcoholics are also regular liars.

Excuse me? My siblings and I are Adult Children of an Alcoholic and we aren't liars! Where are you basing your information off of?

I have a book entitled "Adult Children of Alcoholics" and it shows the different ways people with that background respond. Some are super responsible (me), some are irresponsible...not everyone responds the same way.

Yes I've read that book.
Most children lie to cover up and make excuses for the alcoholic parent.

A opening of adult children AlAnon lists common traits and lying is one of them.

Can you please visit My Wife Left Me For Another Man thread by Ryan and see if you may be able to share how you used plan a to turn your marriage around?

Oh, sheesh. So because I am an adult child of an alcoholic, I'm now a liar. Thanks for letting me know. Yes, I will agree that children of alcoholics will lie to minimize their parents' dysfunctional relationship with alcohol, but I'll stop there.

This is not a personality disorder. This is a DECISION. His wife has decided, for whatever reason, that honesty does not serve her. Q, please don't support your wife in her dishonesty. You should also be very aware of her actions. She has clearly shown you that she will lie when the truth would serve.

This may be worth emailin the radio show for guidance

I don't think Dr. H would support dishonesty in any form, for any reason, but you are always welcome to email him with questions like this.

No I meant to ask him if this is a personality disorder.
He basically told me he didn't think my wife would change due to her personality disorder.
This mans wife may have a disorder too

I think you are personalizing this, HDW. Be careful with that. Not every lying wayward has a personality disorder; they have just learned at some point to try to manipulate people. They'll lie if they need to. It's selfishness, more than anything. They will only learn that their lies (and I won't call them "fibs" - they're LIES) won't serve them when they have to deal with the consequences of their lies.

There comes a time when someone just has to quit what they are doing. That time usually comes when the liar has to deal with the consequences of their lies.

Q says his wife claims to be a 'professional photographer'. That will be easily uncovered the minute someone asks to see her credentials. In the meantime, Q should not support his wife's lies.

If he needs to email Dr. H about this, I am totally supportive.

Why does she lie then?
Wouldn't she be embarrassed if someone asked for her credentials?
What is the point in lying?

The DSM lists an infinite number of disorders. I'll bet if we all read the book we'll all have "something wrong with us that requires special handling".

Also understand that the DSM book changes with politics, seasons, funding, etc.

Do you agree my wife had a disorder?
I've wondered if she could change.
Dr Harley did say recently in the show That Personality disorders can't be fixed

I can't answer that because I am not 1. a professional or 2. acquainted with your wife. However:

I never believed your wife had a disorder because I don't believe in most of them. They are generally used to excuse poor behavior and are dictated by a profession that is a practice, at best. Dr. H has more details about your sitch, of course, and there was obviously something you said to him that indicated a mental issue, or he wouldn't have been so quick to assess your wife. It was obviously a no-brainer for him.

There are some - SOME legitimate disorders that create havoc in daily lives. Those usually show up BEFORE an affair. Not after. I don't know of any disorders that are recognized by the DSM as being caused by an affair. Only you can quantify the disruption of your wife's disorder prior to her affair.

Here's a good show about liars.

Radio clip on liars

I never did, truth was always important to me. I tried to get outside help but back in that day, society looked the other way.

I just looked at that adult children book. She lists the same traits AlAnon does and one of the 13 says :Adult children lie when it is just as easy to tell the truth.

I listened to the clip on lying, and then think about what NG wrote.
Where does your wife fall into on that list?
Does she lie about everything?

Hi folks,

Long overdue for an update. I'll make several posts over the next few days. Today's will just be a personal update.

I stuck with MB from 9/9 until 11/31. I consider it one of the best personal decisions I ever made. Every dollar spent on MBB coaching was worth it, too: I feel like I'm simply no longer in the habit of Love Busters towards anyone at all.

My WW, however, is another story. She either can't change, or isn't interested in changing. She does at least acknowledge this. She said she could not cope with living with me any longer because being around me makes her "feel bad". I discussed this with Steve Harley and he agreed we should get separated on 12/1 and I should go into Plan B.

Our last few weeks together were very pleasant: (safe) SF for both of us and lots of time spent together. I got her some nice gifts, like a black dress to go out on a date with and a Black Friday vacuum cleaner special. (She made some financial decisions that put me way, way ahead in exchange for us being separated a month sooner than originally planned.) As each day passed, I could feel her becoming slightly warmer towards me. Sadly, as each day passed, I felt less and less for her. After reading Love Busters, I understand why, but the feelings are no less real. By the last day we were together, I still felt happy when I was around her, but I felt just as happy not being around her and doing something with one of my friends, or by myself. I no longer felt the anticipation of seeing her again.

Divorce will be final on 1/1/13. At that point, I anticipate Plan B will continue for however long as it needs to. Eventually I suppose I'll view my XW just like any other woman I meet, with the notable exception that I'll happen to know she's a woman who cheated on her husband multiple times, has a lying problem, and at age 27 feels the need to spend her free time singing at open mic night in sketchy bars.

Since she couldn't be with OM, she decided to foster a friendship with OM's mother and his aunt (second cousin? who knows, that family tree looks like spaghetti thanks to all the divorces and remarriages in it). I can't control my wife's relationships with other women, but I feel her choices to foster these friendships shows extremely poor decisionmaking on her part.

We spent 11/30 together until midnight, and then I walked to the home where I now live. She was back with OM and his family in a few hours.

I wish none of them ill. I don't feel any regrets about how I spent the last few months, but I simply don't feel anything for my wife anymore, and I don't even care that she's with someone else now.

Sticking with Plan B from now until who knows. Steve Harley advised not even bothering with a Plan B letter, since we don't have anything like kids that we need to deal with: just keep communication brief and short, and choose not to be there for her.

Being single, free, with no debt, living close to my family, having a small business with partners I trust, and going to a church I love, seems really exciting. I feel a huge relief of stress no longer having to worry about providing for someone else's financial needs.

WW chose to keep $18,000 of debt in her own name instead of sticking with me until 12/31, during which time it would have been paid off. I don't understand this decision, but it was hers to make. The divorce settlement is final and that debt is out of scope (I had/have no responsibility to pay it).

I feel like I got out of jail for free.

I'll join the debate about lying at a later point--I have a lot of input to add.

I should add that I fully expect a few months of solid Plan B to result in my then-XW to be interesting in rekindling our romance, as:

1. It already happened this way in 2008

2. Life at a 40-hour-a-week job (which my WW has never held), in a cheap apartment, with an old car, and $18,000 of debt, is probably not as pleasant as my WW imagined it

3. The relationship with OM is strained and will probably end

4. The last few weeks between us were really good. My WW said a few times that she'll miss enjoying the "finer things" with me, etc. and that she just doesn't even understand why or how I could be so loving and kind to her.

I plan to stick to Plan B and not exit it unless MB coaching + my therapist advise me to do so. Currently both of them think being single and in Plan B is an excellent life for me.

I'm a real sucker for needy women with emotional problems/personality disorders and would like to get out of that pattern.

Did Steve offer any advice on dealing with a spouse with emotional disorders?

Have you read Buyers Renters Freeloaders?

His advice was to become separated, as my WW had shown no indication of wanting to rebuild the marriage, particpate in MB, read any of the books, or stop engaging in lovebusters.

I have not, but I need to. My WW has not read much of any of the books. She only really watched some of the videos when I was around.

Alright, let's discuss the lying thing.

I asked her about the false dates on the resume.

WW was "self-employed" as a foster parent from 2009 - 9/2011.

Our business was formed on 10/2011. WW worked for it from its founding until 5/2011.

Her resume listed the business as her place of employment from 2009 - "present".

She told me she explained in her job interview that she just lumped all self employment under the business name.

The Craigslist example: she was trying to sell her old subwoofer which predates our marriage on Craigslist. Some guy wanted to trade it for a camera. Her response was "as I'm already a professional photographer I don't need a camera". I don't consider getting paid $100 to shoot one wedding, and $20 here and there at some music venues to be "professional photographer". Not quite lying, but misleading.

Another example: she said she was having lunch with a certain name, we'll call this name "Gretchen". OM's mother's name happens to be "Gretchen Jenkins". After she had lunch with this person, I asked her for some details. When it was clear WW wasn't going to reveal anything on her own, I went "This is Gretchen Jenkins, isn't it?" Not quite lying, but misleading.

A much bigger problem is that she's unable to tell the truth about her own emotions, and always wants to report that everything's fine. So she'll say she had to work 15 minutes late instead of saying that she sat in the car crying for 15 minutes. Due to EPs, it's easy to know what actually happened, but a compulsive liar doesn't respond well to being under constant surveillance, and if you reveal facts found due to EPs they'll just find ways to be even more evasive and secretive.

Is it possible to overcome personality disorder-grade lying? Yes, it is.

I was a compulsive liar for years. I didn't lie about things I needed to--I just lied for no reason at all. I lied about major life events to one of my best friends; lied about small things to my family to make my life seem more interesting; lied to my spouse once before we were married that I'd deposited her paycheque when I actually kept putting it off.

I stopped because I chose to. There was definitely a spiritual angle for me; I prayed and told the Lord that I didn't want to do this anymore, but was not succeeding despite my best intentions.

For me, a life free of lies starts with living life the right way in the first place. I take care of myself spiritually. I avoid doing things in the first place that I'd want to cover up/hide. When I tell stories, I actively avoid embellishing anything.

But the spectre's always there at the door, knocking. If I meet new people, the temptation is there to change details about the past to make myself seem more interesting. If I mess something up, the idea's always in my head of inventing a believable excuse.

Liars change when they hate the lies, and hate it hurts them and other people, enough to stop lying.

Until then, expect the lies to continue.

P.S. you can't trust anything a liar says about stopping lying. It's just something you have to observe: trust, but verify.

Thanks, everyone, for the great advice I got here. Everything was final and done with at midnight on New Years. I've smoothly slid into a Plan D.

Joint taxes need to be filed but I have a professional to help handle that.

Glad it's over and to be moving on. Life feels so much more interesting and hopeful now.

Q, glad to hear you are in a better place than you were before. Happy New year

I'm sorry for the roller coaster.
Why don't you start a thread in DIVORCED thread?
We can communicate more.

Good luck