Been married 19 plus years...2 kids...son soon to be 12 and daughter soon to be 15.
Wife has had anxiety issues for years (seen a therapist for over 10 years).
She had what she said was an emotional affair with a roofer who worked on our house. Started with cell calls and texting. When I found out...exposed it and we started counseling. During counseling it got worse. Tracked her via phone gps. She met him at least twice. Second time, after she knew that I knew about the first, she was at a hotel. I got there within an hour of her arrival...so not sure what happened that day. I made the mistake of telling her I was there and did not have a PI wait and take photos..etc.
She still maintains it was only emotional...no physical contact...of course I didn't/don't believe her. She lied about the phone calls until I proved it. Lied about seeing him again and then the hotel incident. Lied that he was there and they had a room until a PI proved it.
Hotel event was June 1...other time I know of was May 24th...cell and texting was March/April.
EDIT: On June 1, said all the right things to keep me in the home -- i'll do anything to fix this...we can work this out...i love you...i realized today i don't want to be with him...etc...then failed to live up to that.
We tried to work it out at home but she kept saying she felt too much pressure. I was in and out of the home and eventually left on July 30th. We are supposed to be separated but not dating or seeing other people. This is in PA where there is not legal separation.
She said she's still not sure if she wants to work it out...but says she thinks we will. Doesn't feel the normal love feelings for me anymore...but can't imagine her life without me. Says she could not handle having me back in the home right now...she feels too much pressure when I am there.
Not tracking her now. Tracking ended in mid July...from June 2 thru then, I don't think she saw him. Seems like our marriage counseling is not doing anything to bring us together. I can read her email (she did give me that) and I know she is not using her cell phone (can see that too)...but for hours a day she does whatever she wants and gets upset if I ask too many questions (usually more than 1). She lost an earlier cell phone...so that phone could still be used with a different number but her affair partner would have to be paying for it.
I know she has resentment issues...because of previous issues she had with my mother. Seems like she has those now with me. Says she thinks she can't get past the way she felt that led to the EA.
She's not the person I used to know right now. We are in our mid 40's and I sense she is having a midlife crisis as part of this mess we are going through.
I am starting to think she is seeing him again and the feelings are being used to justify the continuation of the affair.
Thoughts?
Forgot to add this...any pressure by me...I I take the hard line on almost anything...results in her throwing me under the bus in counseling. Uses words like 'always' and 'never' when describing my actions. She really sees just about any pressure from me as too much.
I honestly don't think she would respond unless she had divorce papers in her hands.
I am starting to think she is seeing him again and the feelings are being used to justify the continuation of the affair.
I don't think she ever stopped seeing him to begin with.
I would think you will get quite a bit of advice to move back home. If your WW 'feels too much pressure' when you're around, then she's perfectly capable of leaving to relieve the pressure.
You vacating your home has done nothing but allow her to conduct her A in comfort.
I don't post much here anymore, but just happened to be on-line today.
I would say most likely she is still involved with him. Probably planning on keeping both you and the OM around and until she decides who she "likes" better. Most likely a decision that will never be made by her. Read about "cake eaters".
What is it you are trying to accomplish? If it is to keep the marriage together, than you should not have moved out and should not have stopped tracking her. Also, who did you expose to? Have you read up on things on this site? Did you do a plan A?
Are the kids living with her?
1. I'd move home. If she wants to continue the affair she can do it from somewhere else.
2. Resume/renew the tracking software that stopped in July.
3. With that evidence, expose the affair.
Welcome to MB .. Sorry you are here. I would stop going to the MC.. your wasting your money. MC's have an 84% failure rate and more often than not do nothing but facilitate a divorce or try and keep you paying 100$ a session to talk about your childhood .. neither will be helpful. THey also have the highest rate of divorce of any occupation. SO keep that in mind.
Your best bet is to dive into the MB program here ... start with all the free info .. and if you have a hard time working with the community to make your plan then use your money (instead of MCing) on the coaching center here after you familiarize yourself with how it all works. Get the books Surviving an affair and His Needs Her Needs and Love busters .. those 3 books do a great job of putting pretty much everything you can think of in regartds to marriage and relationships in general into perspetive with practical solutions that are far more detailed than the info on the site.
MNG
A little more info:
Kids are living at home with her...I am with my sister.
Tracking stopped because of google latitude problems - can't really afford to rent pi tracker...looking into options listed on this site.
Money problems in marriage...multiple times she had hidden credit cards with 4k or more balances.
I think the money situation is transparent now...we closed accounts and we only have 1 joint checking account.
She was exposed to her parents...she hates me for that too.
I honestly wanted to work it out...save the marriage...but now i am starting to think it's not a situation that I will ever be able to live in because her resentment issues are very big.
We went 13 years with no relationship with my family (mother, step father, sister and brother-in-law) because she and my mom didn't get along...I went along with this (I know...huge mistake...).
This is why I think it might not be the other guy...but I probably need to track her to be sure.
SEan, the problem is the other guy. I am sure she blames other things to keep you off balance, but the issue is the affair. Which is still going strong.
If you want to save your marriage, it is critical that you move home and expose the affair wide and far. Moving out was a huge strategic mistake that makes it harder to save this. So, go home NOW, without warning her.
When you get back in your home, prepare to do a very strategic exposure. That is your best hope.
Also, going to a counselor is probably going to destroy your marriage. Marriage counselors are very destructive to marriages and they are a disaster when there is an affair. Your wife is fogged out on the fumes of an affair and the MC doesn't understand her foggy mentality. As such, the MC will validate your wife's foggy thinking.
Has the OM been sleeping in your home yet? What do your kids say?
We tried to work it out at home but she kept saying she felt too much pressure. I was in and out of the home and eventually left on July 30th. We are supposed to be separated but not dating or seeing other people. This is in PA where there is not legal separation.
Many judges will nail your [censored] for abandoning your family. Abandoning your family will not look good if this makes it to court and will put you at a legal disadvantage. They will take your abandonment into acccount when it comes to settlement.
What is your excuse for leaving?
If you read my thread ... you will find that in the last few pages i was using this forum to cope with my MIL's affair .. and how my wifes step dad of 20 years was a total putz and woldnt do the things he needed to do to win his wife over .. afraid and frozen in his tracks ... we wended up beingthe bad guy for him .. but the end result was still the same .. everything we said she was going to do if he didnt listen to us she did .. and his wife left him and is going to marry the OM now ... he wishes he listened to us ... he got kicked out of HIS marital home .. she changed the locks after their pastor told them to take a break from their mariage for a bit .. and she totally moved in the OM. just as I said ... he is kicking himself now .. and sees everything now that it is hind sight ... LISTEN TO THE ADVICE you get here .. these people know what hey are talking about. It will save you alot of heart ache later .. one way or the other.
MNG
I actually spoke to an attorney and in PA it doesn't matter if the divorce is no fault. As much as I might not like what she has done, I would do what's best for the kids...I would try to work it out through mediation.
I left because the marriage counselor suggested it and my wife said she wanted that too.
I actually spoke to an attorney and in PA it doesn't matter if the divorce is no fault. As much as I might not like what she has done, I would do what's best for the kids...I would try to work it out through mediation.
What would be your reasons for abandoning your children and your wife? Did the attorney tell you that this would affect your custody arrangement since you left?
Also, you can't very well save your marriage if you are not there. Why would you leave your children and wife when your marriage is in such a crisis?
I left because the marriage counselor suggested it and my wife said she wanted that too.
What if the "counselor" told you to jump off the cliff? Would you do that too? That is a ridiculous excuse to abandon your family.
Obviously, all you did by leaving was FACILITATE THE AFFAIR AND MAKE IT HARDER TO SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE.
It is easier for her to replace you with this loser. And now she is free to take him around *YOUR* kids in *YOUR* home.
YOU did that, Sir.
And my MIL's pastor told them to take a short break and seperate for a while so they could get some space and find out what they wanted and have time to think .. and yup ... MIL wanted a divorce and made it so and even tho the pastor only suggested 2 weeks apart .. they have not been back together in many many months now, the pastor is no longer there as he took a symbatical.... they are officially Divorced now .. and MIL plans on marrying her AP and most likely getting a divorce again in a few years (my prediction based on MB) and cutting her assets in 1/2 again as the chances of it working ( an affairage) are slim to none ...
DOnt fall into that stat man ... if you want to work on it ... you need to go home. Cant work on something you dont have easy access too such as your wife. IF thats what you want. Then you need to follow the MB plan here .. and get to work.
1. GO HOME!
MNG
I actually spoke to an attorney and in PA it doesn't matter if the divorce is no fault. As much as I might not like what she has done, I would do what's best for the kids...I would try to work it out through mediation.
I left because the marriage counselor suggested it and my wife said she wanted that too.
When are you moving back home?
Men don't leave your homes Is the OM married?
You actuallu have two separate paths to choose from:
For the first, calmly, and simply, here's what you must do:
- Separate your finances from her access. Change your pay deposit to an account only you have access to. Cancel all cards that are jointly owned.
- Move back home. (Into YOUR bedroom, none of that sleeping on the couch crap.)
- Swear off [censored] marriage counselors, forever.
- Pull the tags off any vehicle she has control over that is titled in your name. Cancel the insurance thereon.
- Treat her with the degree of disregard that you and she have until now conspired to treat you with. (Was that subtle enough?)
This should take you about two days to accomplish. Keep us advised as to your progress.
For the second, stay where you are and whine.
I'm really not sure what I want to do at this point.
I guess what we had was a botched Plan A...it was too difficult to be mr nice guy...she just kept killing it with mean and ugly behavior that I could not effectively work into a plan A.
To be completely honest, if she is back with him after saying she would work this out the way we agreed...not seeing other people...then I'd rather not spend the rest of my life trying to keep her happy. I think her pre-existing issues with self esteem and anxiety will make it next to impossible for one person to make her happy for a prolonged period of time.
I guess spending some money on snooping will help determine if he's back in the picture and then I can decide what to do from there.
Given her long standing resentment issues reconciling for us, as a married couple, is going to be very lengthy. Right now I know I can get along with her well enough to raise the kids as divorced parents. If he entered the picture, post divorce, that would be a significant hurdle for me to overcome.
Sean, one of the biggest problems is that you made it too easy for the OM. If you had stayed home and fought for your marriage, you would have had a chance to save this. As it is now, you can be replaced easily. Have your children been exposed to the OM?
Also, her "resentment issues" are likely contrivances manufactured to justify her affair. All wayward wives rewrite history to demonize their husbands. It is the rule, rather than the exception. But that "resentment" fades quickly when the affair is killed and the OM is run off.
What we do to marriages is run off the affair partner. Once the OP is out of the picture, the marriage can often be saved. And you decide not to do that, you will likely be dealing with the OM living in your home and taking your place. Are you prepared for that?
Sean.
Your marriage counselor is giving you terrible advice.
You need to move back home immediately.
TODAY.
You have full legal rights to be home. So go home today.
And never return to that marriage counselor again.
Really Sean.
What sense does it make to move out of your house because your wife is screwing around?
She should move her cheating [censored] out.
You need to stand up for yourself and your kids.
What you have done is considered abandonment by the courts.
Do you want a roofer to be living in your house with your kids?
Who is this guy?
Sean, do you believe that appeasing your wife will save your marriage? I assure you it will achieve the exact opposite. When you cooperate and capitulate to someone whose goal is the destruction of your marriage and your children's family, you end up with a ........destroyed marriage.
There was no need whatsoever to surrender your marriage and your children and your home to the OM. You surrendered without a shot, Sir.
Oh. And for legal reasons you need to explain why you moved out.
"I followed the advice of our marriage counselor. However I decided to move back home after reviewing the recommendations on the marriage builder website by dr Bill Harley. "
You listened to a wife that is in the fog tell you she needs space. Your wife told the MC she can't live with you. You think plan A from your sister's house is not working very well. You keep hoping your wife will leave/forget about the other man and fall back in love with you?
You can move BACK HOME and have a better chance of working things out or at least not be aiding in your demise.
When you said you have money problems what is next? Will the OM move in with her and the kids to help with expences? What then? Fix the mistake by moving back. Honey I'm home :)dan
Pull the tags off any vehicle she has control over that is titled in your name. Cancel the insurance thereon.
I don't recommend that. I was told by my insurance agent and my attorney and the DMV that I had to continue to pay insurance on any vehicles that had my name on it, even though my WH & his harlot were driving it. If one of them had a drink and an accident, you could personally be sued so that you'd never own anything again!
Pull the tags off any vehicle she has control over that is titled in your name. Cancel the insurance thereon.
I don't recommend that. I was told by my insurance agent and my attorney and the DMV that I had to continue to pay insurance on any vehicles that had my name on it, even though my WH & his harlot were driving it. If one of them had a drink and an accident, you could personally be sued so that you'd never own anything again!
Maybe it would be safer to take the car and go trade it in for cash.. End of problem!
It certainly would be if you can get ahold of it! In my case, he lived 3 1/2 hours away in Portland, OR and I had no idea where he had our vehicles!
Well, KCS, in your case pulling the tags was the impossibility that caused your problem. For people in proximity, a screwdriver, four screws and five minutes and the problem is solved.
Well, KCS, in your case pulling the tags was the impossibility that caused your problem. For people in proximity, a screwdriver, four screws and five minutes and the problem is solved.
Yep, even I can operate a screw driver!
The OM is not going to move in any time soon.
My wife has issues beside whatever fog she might be in and one of those is insecurity. She knows if he moves in...it will raise eyebrows because this guy worked on several homes and quite a few people know him. It would be embarrassing to her...and that would be a huge problem for her. It would be way too obvious what had happened. If we were to divorce...and he was there a year or two from now...I could see that happening. As much as I would hate the idea of him being anywhere near my children...I might have to learn to live with that. But I think we're getting way ahead of ourselves in that respect.
I know the idea behind this site is to build and save marriages...but obviously some cannot be saved. People do change and sometimes that change is not overturned by skillfully manipulating them back to who you want them to be.
While I understand the concepts here...and in some...maybe a lot...of situations it really is about coaxing a person back to reality...if a person does have pre existing mental issues...it may be next to impossible for them to be coaxed.
My mother and her did not get along that well...and my wife could not handle my mother...my wife took things personally. My mother was an emotional mess and everybody else had learned to live with that (looks like I am in for the same ride). My wife could not...and decided she WOULD NOT associate with my mother. Within a year of my daughter being born (1997) she told me she no longer wanted anything to do with my mother or anybody that associated with her. She said I never supported her when it came to my mother (there is some truth to me not supporting her enough) and said it was her or my mother. I chose my wife and daughter. It took a year or so for that situation ti improve for me. My wife resented me for it. It took a few more years to really see her trust me when it came to my mother. For that time and until just this summer, I did not speak to my mother, step father, sister, brother in law...and a host of cousins. Basically any contact with anybody in my family resulted in an argument...and her use of the words NEVER if I even mentioned the idea of trying to work things out with them.
Her resentment issues are HUGE...and not just something being used to hide what might be going on with her and the OM. Going back now would likely cause so many negative feelings that she would never get past them. Maybe I am wrong on that count...but I don't think it would work out with the way she is right now...it would really kill things from what I can see.
I will do my best to determine if something is going on with her and the OM...and then decide what to do from there.
Sean- I am very new here, but have been reading for a few months. Please, please, please follow these people's advice. You have some of the most experienced posters trying to help you. They KNOW what they are talking about. Don't assume that those who have any influence on your wife actually know the truth. They only know the slanted truth- Trust me.
If you have the money, hire a PI to get the scoop, and then follow everyone's advice and expose.
Oh, and move back home!!
I know the idea behind this site is to build and save marriages...but obviously some cannot be saved. People do change and sometimes that change is not overturned by skillfully manipulating them back to who you want them to be.
Saying that "all marriages cannot be saved" is a self fulfilling prophecy when you surrender your marriage and your children to an OM. A marriage cannot be saved when you surrender without trying to save it. [the French did the same thing in WWII]
You are allowing
yourself to be "skillfully manipulated" by 2 people who are in an affair. Do you realize this? Defending your marriage from this assault is not "manipulative," it is what one does when they are serious about saving their marriage.
When a wife says she needs "space" it means that she needs space to carry on her affair. I understand you are new to this, but you are making strategic mistakes that will result in the death of your marriage. For absolutely no good reason.
Your path only supports the affair, our path supports the marriage. .
She knows if he moves in...it will raise eyebrows because this guy worked on several homes and quite a few people know him. It would be embarrassing to her...and that would be a huge problem for her. It would be way too obvious what had happened. If we were to divorce...and he was there a year or two from now...I could see that happening. As much as I would hate the idea of him being anywhere near my children...I might have to learn to live with that
You don't have any idea what you are dealing with and don't understand the mentality of a wayward. You think you are dealing with your wife, but you are not. You are dealing with an irrational wayward wife who is drunk on her affair. Since you don't understand this aspect, you have no idea how to cope with it.
It is your prerogative to abandon your marriage, though. We thought you wanted to save your marriage. But it is your right to give up.
She said she's still not sure if she wants to work it out...but says she thinks we will. Doesn't feel the normal love feelings for me anymore...but can't imagine her life without me. Says she could not handle having me back in the home right now...she feels too much pressure when I am there.
She feels too much pressure because it is harder to hide her affair. She doesn't want you there to interfere with her affair.
The OM is not going to move in any time soon.
My wife has issues beside whatever fog she might be in and one of those is insecurity. She knows if he moves in...it will raise eyebrows because this guy worked on several homes and quite a few people know him. It would be embarrassing to her...and that would be a huge problem for her. It would be way too obvious what had happened. If we were to divorce...and he was there a year or two from now...I could see that happening.
What better reason than to expose?
As much as I would hate the idea of him being anywhere near my children...I might have to learn to live with that. But I think we're getting way ahead of ourselves in that respect.
Really?? Your just gonna let that happen??
Going back now would likely cause so many negative feelings that she would never get past them.
I'm going to bow out now.
This poster doesn't have the capacity to actually fight for his house and his children.
A shame, really, because God only knows what the mother is telling those kids about their father.
This guy isn't going to make it.
This guy isn't going to make it.
No, it doesn't sound like it.
And you know what's worse? That his kids are going to take their father's inaction and mother's infidelity with them into their own marriages and use that as the basis of comparison when finding their own spouses. Some role models.
Sean.
You need to be a man for your family.
I work in construction and I don't mean to offend anyone but most roofers are drunks and addicts. Its mostly a cash pay business for people that re hard workers and can't pass a drug test.
Is that who you want around your kids?
In my case my wife had an affair with a man, I did a background check and found out he was a drug addict and went to prison for 9 years for trying to kill his 3 year old daughter. Who is this guy you are willing to hand your kids over to?
You seem to enable what behaviors your wife does. She tells you not to talk to family and you don't. She tells you to separate and you do.
I was in a similar role as you. I was a passive spouse. But today I'm not. Today I'm an enabled individual. You can be too. The first step is in standing up for yourself. Standing up and saying that she will not have an affair while married and that you are not going to allow some creep to move in and be your child's new dad.
Sean, save yourself months of torment and doubt. Simply go read this
thread.
The subject took the same insecure, unstable, and feckless approach to his
marriage that you are. However, as badly as he screwed up his life, it was only
HIS life - no kids.
You, sir, have a lot to learn about being an adult male, and a responsible father.
That perfect strangers on the internet are concerned for your kids should be a sign, Sean.
Yeah, yeah, we know. Your WW would never do anything that may put the kids in harm's way. Well, she told you and the kids that y'all cannot see each other whenever you want to so, yes, she is capable of doing things that hurt them.
Or are these not your children?
Sorry, Sean, guess I'm not bowing out after all. Lucky you!
If you want to give up on your wife then that is your right, but you're also handing off your children to another man to raise. You don't think she will try and replace you as their father? You will see soon enough.
You're not exactly the expert in the field of marriage or separation/divorce so I'm not sure why you choose to ignore Dr. Harley's advice and methods.
If you want to give her up fine, but you're relegating your daughter to live with an apparently mentally ill mother having an affair with her roofer. That's not exactly going to bode well for you in the future.
Sean,
It would be better to move back home and work the program to see if any good comes. Even if you don't think it is worth working on your marriage move back so you are with your kids. Let your wife leave. Make your wife be the one to ask you to see the kids. You control who comes into your home. You can give up on wife, don't give up on your kids or put thim in harms way.
What will your kids think of you and how you treat them?
dan
What will your kids think of you and how you treat them?
Here's a hint, Sean:
Your WW has already told them all sorts of things to explain why you left and, buddy, none of them make you look good. Since you aren't there to say otherwise, they'll believe it and think that you don't care about them. Or, worse, that you left because of them.
SeanE,
Either decide you want your marriage and your kids, and move home.
Or file for divorce NOW, and accept that you've made a decision you never want to see your wife or your kids again.
As far as the "pain of exposing" goes, trust me, the pain will be there whether you do it or not. Do you want your WW to see you as a MAN who fights for her, or a wimp who just runs away? Women like to be fought for. Part of her resentment issues are that you've never fought for her!
I am in the middle of not leaving home and just exposed three days ago, so these are not idle words for me.
Ok...some cleaning up...
She never said I couldn't see the kids...said I could any time...could stop and see them or call...and we are going to do something this weekend away from the home (me and the kids).
She may be bad mouthing me...I am completely aware of this. I grew up in a divorced home...I understand it far better than anybody could ever explain it to me.
I grew up with the knowledge, at 13, that my father had an affair that led to my parents divorce when I was 3. This was brought to my attention when my mother wanted our step father to adopt us. It was not the right thing for her to do...I hated my father for many years because of it. We finally reconciled after 25 years. He passed away in 2011 but I'm glad I had the chance to finally forgive him of the things I was told he did. And forgive myself for living with years of hatred.
I also had strong resentment toward my mother for what she did...which I partially used to fuel the ability to keep away from her over the years that my wife wanted no contact with her.
Recently I have mended fences with my mother, step dad, sister...etc. I explained to my mother how I felt over those years and she took it very well. They obviously all know about what happened with my wife.
The thing I have learned is that nothing lasts forever. Anger, resentment, feeling hurt...marriages...you have to learn to deal with all of them. I now deal with them much better than I did when I was younger.
My wife is a mess. Sure, it probably is sitll the other guy...and I plan to find out. I can't go back there and create a crazy environemnt for my kids right now and she would certainly become unhinged if I did go back.
So, right now...being away allows her to be a mother...which she does quite well...and keeps the two of us from creating unhappiness that will make the kids miserable.
My wife is a mess. Sure, it probably is sitll the other guy...and I plan to find out. I can't go back there and create a crazy environemnt for my kids right now and she would certainly become unhinged if I did go back.
This is a poor excuse to abandon your marriage and your family. Just because your wife is upset? What if she asked you to jump off a cliff and threatened to become "unhinged" if you didn't?
You have sacrificed your children's safety and security only to appease your wayward wife. Children are not made "happy" when they come from a broken home. But that is what you are doing to them.
Making irresponsible, reckless decisions that harm your children and marriage is not justified by your desire to appease your wayward wife.
So, right now...being away allows her to be a mother...which she does quite well...and keeps the two of us from creating unhappiness that will make the kids miserable.
Being away harms your marriage and allows your wife to carry on her affair in peace. Being away greatly increases the risk of divorce. Being a part time father is not in your children's best interest.
You have structured your entire life and your children's lives in reaction to your wayward wife's irrational behavior. That is inexcusable.
A REAL MAN stands up for his family in their time of need. He doesn't abandon them when they need him the most. Running to accommodate your wife's desire to pursue her affair in peace is inexcusable.
You surrendered your family to some scumbag roofer. That is all you have done, Sir. You surrendered without a shot.
You are what Dr Harley would call an "enabler." He says it is very hard to save a marriage when you become an enabler.
And Sean, how do you feel about this man around your 15 year old daughter? He was willing to come in and have an affair with a client's wife. Does his severe lack of boundaries not concern you around your teen daughter?
MelodyLane is right. PLEASE follow her advice!
To be honest, I was afraid to post here at first because I knew that ML was going to call me on the carpet for being spineless. She may seem tough, but she KNOWS what she's talking about. I have listened to these people and have finally began to follow the plan. And I feel much better about things.
You can't just come here and make excuses. There is help, but you must follow it..
^--- good point alis. I read a study somewhere that said that many child abuse cases (including rape, and sexual abuse) are very well associated with "step" parents who have no biological attatchment to the children. I would be very weary about having ANY OM around my 14YO if I was you.
>.<
MNG
^--- good point alis. I read a study somewhere that said that many child abuse cases (including rape, and sexual abuse) are very well associated with "step" parents who have no biological attatchment to the children. I would be very weary about having ANY OM around my 14YO if I was you.
>.<
MNG
I worked in a police department for 8 years and have seen it more times than I care to recall. Step fathers are the top offenders. They also target mothers with mental health issues/poor boundaries/blind fools. No self-respecting mother would bring this trash around her children let alone young daughters.
Sean, a good mother does not cheat on her husband/children's father with some random roofer. If she WAS a good mother, fine, but she is not being one right now.
Bad boyfriends often abuse children of partners
Washington Post
By DAVID CRARY , AP National Writer
Sunday, November 18, 2007
NEW YORK (AP) - An ever-increasing share of America's children grow up in homes without both biological parents, leaving them nearly 50 times as likely to die of child abuse, according to research.
In many cases, the alleged or convicted perpetrator is the boyfriend of the child's mother - men thrust into father-like roles which they tragically fail to embrace.
Many scholars and front-line caseworkers interviewed by The Associated Press see the abusive-boyfriend syndrome as part of a broader trend that deeply worries them, particularly as an ever-increasing share of America's children grow up in homes without both biological parents.
"This is the dark underbelly of cohabitation," said Brad Wilcox, a sociology professor at the University of Virginia. "Cohabitation has become quite common, and most people think, 'What's the harm?' The harm is we're increasing a pattern of relationships that's not good for children."
There are many other studies that, taken together, reinforce the concerns. Among the findings:
• Children living in households with unrelated adults are nearly 50 times as likely to die of inflicted injuries as children living with two biological parents, according to a study of Missouri abuse reports published in the journal of the American Academy of Pediatrics in 2005.
•
Children living in stepfamilies or with single parents are at higher risk of physical or sexual assault than children living with two biological or adoptive parents, according to several studies co-authored by David Finkelhor, director of the University of New Hampshire's Crimes Against Children Research Center.
• Girls whose parents divorce are at significantly higher risk of sexual assault, whether they live with their mother or their father, according to research by Robin Wilson, a family law professor at Washington and Lee University.."All the emphasis on family autonomy and privacy shields the families from investigators, so we don't respond until it's too late," Wilson said. "I hate the fact that something dangerous for children doesn't get responded to because we're afraid of judging someone's lifestyle."
Census data leaves no doubt that family patterns have changed dramatically in recent decades as cohabitation and single-parenthood became common. Thirty years ago, nearly 80 percent of America's children lived with both parents. Now, only two-thirds of them do. Of all families with children, nearly 29 percent are now one-parent families, up from 17 percent in 1977.
The net result is a sharp increase in households with a potential for instability, and the likelihood that adults and children will reside in them who have no biological tie to each other.
comprehensive article in entirety at:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/19/AR2007111900007.html
Yup ... hence why I put my children in martial arts (my daughter can take me down now that she is a blue belt) and got her a hunting licence (actually going hunting this weekend)! THis way she has a good chance of defending herself in the event that someone try something on her. ANd any guy that wants to date her in the future will have to be more manly than her! haha.
SeanE you could be setting yourself up for many years of hurt with your children by just letting the OM move in and take over. DONT DO IT.
MNG
She never said I couldn't see the kids...
Bullsh*t. She said you cannot see the kids anytime that you like by getting you to leave the house. Her offer to let you see them when, no doubt, convenient for her is the same thing.
Just push that niceness a bit by telling her what's what and see how belligerent she'll get.
My wife is a mess. Sure, it probably is sitll the other guy...and I plan to find out. I can't go back there and create a crazy environemnt for my kids right now and she would certainly become unhinged if I did go back.
You are correct, having an unstable home environment is bad for the children. So she, being the one that is a mess, leaves the house and you, the stable one, stay. There, problem solved.
Any other excuses, Sean?
I'm trying to get you pissed off enough to care about your kids. It's tiring.
If I was your WW Sean, the message I would be getting loud and clear is that you don't care enough about me to fight for me. And maybe you don't. But if you do, be aware that there is NOTHING about your (in)action right now that would show it.
It seems like people are being harsh here I'm sure, and that they don't know your EXACT situation. EVERY A situation is in general the same, and the action that needs to be taken to end an A and fight for your M is the same. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't, but in the amount of time I have been here I have NEVER seen inaction work toward recovering a marriage.
People here just get frustrated to see another one bite the dust, because they were unable to persuade a suffering BS to take the actions that would help them.
She never said I couldn't see the kids...
Bullsh*t. She said you cannot see the kids anytime that you like by getting you to leave the house. Her offer to let you see them when, no doubt, convenient for her is the same thing.
Just push that niceness a bit by telling her what's what and see how belligerent she'll get.
My wife is a mess. Sure, it probably is sitll the other guy...and I plan to find out. I can't go back there and create a crazy environemnt for my kids right now and she would certainly become unhinged if I did go back.
You are correct, having an unstable home environment is bad for the children. So she, being the one that is a mess, leaves the house and you, the stable one, stay. There, problem solved.
Any other excuses, Sean?
I'm trying to get you pissed off enough to care about your kids. It's tiring.
Please listen... I didn't even post until I was ready to listen.
SeanE .. you can not see it now but your children are greatly affected by this ... they will feel you abandoned them .. they will wish you did everything you could have done to have a complete family ... They will wish you would fight TOOTH AND NAIL for your marriage.
I remember as a child ALWAYS wishing my parents would get back together .. All i ever wanted was a normal family life. IT NEVER HAPPENED! I resent BOTH my parents today because of this. Neither one thinks that what they did has anything to do with me and that its none of my business about what happened and why .. Well I know why NOW .. and they are ashamed. I know the truth and it disgusted me.
I (this year) blasted my mother for her adultery ... AND my dad ... my dad said sorry ... and wished he had of not done what he did and now makes a great effort in my life but I am an adult now .. My mom however tells me to STFU and that I dont understand and that its none of my business and that she owes NO ONE an appology. SO I not so kindly told her where the bears [censored] in the woods at about it.. and told her unless she appologizes and OPWNS what she did to our family that I really want nothing to do with her.
THEY DESTROYED my childhood .. my dreams of a normal family. Do you want your children to grow up with thoughts like this? I certainly dont want my kids to have any GLIMMER of this ...
THink Long and Hard SeanE .. this is not just about YOU and your feelings. The choices you make today will affect your children FOREVER.
MNG
BTW .. my mom told my dad he could see us anytime too ... But guess what .. she lied ... she moved constantly to avoid him. So even though i was supposed to visit him every 2nd weekend she moved often so he couldnt find us .. then blamed him for not taking us telling us he didnt want to visit us and make HIM out to be the bad guy. Told me that my dad would take me away and never let me see my mom again etc ..
All she wanted was the child support and did everything in her power to not allow us to visit my dad .. until the courts got involved and forced my mom to report when she moved so they could inform my dad as he had parental rights that my mom was trying to avoid.
DONT BE THAT DAD.. FIGHT FOR YOUR MARRIAGE AND CHILDREN!
MNG
BTW .. my mom told my dad he could see us anytime too ... But guess what .. she lied ... she moved constantly to avoid him. So even though i was supposed to visit him every 2nd weekend she moved often so he couldnt find us .. then blamed him for not taking us telling us he didnt want to visit us and make HIM out to be the bad guy. Told me that my dad would take me away and never let me see my mom again etc ..
All she wanted was the child support and did everything in her power to not allow us to visit my dad .. until the courts got involved and forced my mom to report when she moved so they could inform my dad as he had parental rights that my mom was trying to avoid.
DONT BE THAT DAD.. FIGHT FOR YOUR MARRIAGE AND CHILDREN!
MNG
I'm at a loss to understand how, looking back at this, you could think it would have worked if they stayed together?
Is the assumption that if they had stayed together your mom would have been different? she would have found love again for your dad and everything would have worked out?
I will always fight for my children. And I will fight for my marriage...as I have since I found out about the phone calls on May 10th.
Plan A did not work.
Isn't this essentially Plan B?
Does plan B say...go back to the home?
You are saying Plan B and make her leave... I get that. But I am already gone. My contact with her is essentially limited to that which involves the kids or the financial situaiton (bills that need to be paid).
You are saying Plan B and make her leave... I get that.
Good, so you agree that you and the kids being the house is the preferable arrangement?
But I am already gone. My contact with her is essentially limited to that which involves the kids or the financial situaiton (bills that need to be paid).
You can continue this limited contact from your own home.
The point, Sean, is why are YOU the one that had to leave and live out of a suitcase? Why are YOU the one that cannot see his children whenever you want? Why are YOU the one tossed out on your [censored] when you did nothing wrong?
Learn from our collective mistakes, please!
BTW .. my mom told my dad he could see us anytime too ... But guess what .. she lied ... she moved constantly to avoid him. So even though i was supposed to visit him every 2nd weekend she moved often so he couldnt find us .. then blamed him for not taking us telling us he didnt want to visit us and make HIM out to be the bad guy. Told me that my dad would take me away and never let me see my mom again etc ..
All she wanted was the child support and did everything in her power to not allow us to visit my dad .. until the courts got involved and forced my mom to report when she moved so they could inform my dad as he had parental rights that my mom was trying to avoid.
DONT BE THAT DAD.. FIGHT FOR YOUR MARRIAGE AND CHILDREN!
MNG
I'm at a loss to understand how, looking back at this, you could think it would have worked if they stayed together?
Is the assumption that if they had stayed together your mom would have been different? she would have found love again for your dad and everything would have worked out?
I dont honestly know, I was a child with big hopes ... they separated by the time I was 2 or 3. I was left in the dark as I grew up about the real story and made to feel afraid of my dad for most of my child hood. I love both my parents .. but i was very confused for a long time and didnt trust my dad because of the things my mom would tell me. Now that I know what REALLY happened .. it has changed my view and I made a VOW to not EVER let that happen to my kids.
I still wished my parents would have loved each other. They didnt try EVERYTHING they could have ... they were BOTH wayward. And by wayward I mean they were swingers. (puke)
However, my dad tries really hard now and feels remorse for what happened. MY mom is just crazy and STILL wayward. She thinks she can do no wrong. I dont see how it could have worked now ... especially knowing what I do now about how they BOTH feel about marriage and relationships. But that didnt stop me from wanting a complete family as a child growing up wishing I had loving parents like my friends did.
This movie played in my head for years.
edit to add a clarification.
Hello SeanE. The pros on here are 100% correct in their advice to you. Once it sinks in, you will see that too. It takes a while. So, what I hope is that you put your "common sense" aside and follow the directions they are giving you. Who knows if she will have a break in her fog, but she never will if you don't let her hit the consequential bottom!!! Seriously, she will never have a break in her fantasy fog until something so awful makes it break. Usually the weight of reality, her having to handle more responsibility, her having to face the music, shame from exposure, these are the things that can wake them up!!! DON'T make ANYTHING easy for her!!!! I agree, you should go back home. She is the wayward. You are the steady, security blanket that your children need. When waywards are off chasing their fix b/c that is the most important thing to them, EVERYTHING else comes second, third, etc. Your children are NOT #1 for her now. Also, after all the time I have been on this site, I FINALLY do see how this environment is NOT acceptable for the kids to remain in. It might be scarry, but others have done this.... Tell her you are moving back home. If she wants to have an extra marital relationship, she can do that, but she is the one that needs to leave the family home - AS SHE IS THE ONE BREAKING UP THE FAMILY!!! I know you are tired of hearing it, but you will eventually come to this conclusion!!! Who cares if she gets mad? Don't you have rights and feelings too? Empower yourself here. Stand up for what YOU know is right. Do this for your children. Take the leap - move home!! She leaves!!
I'm at a loss to understand how, looking back at this, you could think it would have worked if they stayed together?
Is the assumption that if they had stayed together your mom would have been different? she would have found love again for your dad and everything would have worked out?
I will always fight for my children. And I will fight for my marriage...as I have since I found out about the phone calls on May 10th.
Plan A did not work.
Isn't this essentially Plan B?
Does plan B say...go back to the home?
You are saying Plan B and make her leave... I get that. But I am already gone. My contact with her is essentially limited to that which involves the kids or the financial situaiton (bills that need to be paid).
You have not done plan a or plan b. You simply abandoned your marriage and your family and handed it over to the OM. You have only facilitated the affair in an attempt to appease your wayward wife.
What we are suggesting is that instead of standing up for the affair, you stand up for your marriage and your children and go home. Go home and conduct a REAL plan a.
It seems like people are being harsh here I'm sure, and that they don't know your EXACT situation. EVERY A situation is in general the same, and the action that needs to be taken to end an A and fight for your M is the same. .
He is under the mistaken assumption that he knows his wife better than we do. The truth Is that we know WAYWARDS and he does not. We see what is going on here and he is clueless. Because he is clueless, he is making strategic blunders.
EXactly.... ML.
I would say that if he is paying the bills in the marital home but not living there .. GO back and make use of the bills your paying. Let HER leave if she doesnt like it. Then the kids stay with you. This would either 1. Send her to OM (which most likely OM is coming into YOUR marital home and banging your wife) or 2. she just gets really angry and tries to argue with you to get you to leave and eventually gives up because you wont react to her abrasiveness (no LBing!) and then she runs away for a few hours to think about it and comes back to talk.
Either way .. you will be a hero to your kids as you remain and be the calm one of the craziness.
MNG
He is actually financing the affair.
Yup ... hence why I put my children in martial arts (my daughter can take me down now that she is a blue belt) and got her a hunting licence (actually going hunting this weekend)! THis way she has a good chance of defending herself in the event that someone try something on her.
Take it from someone who lived it: these activities will not prevent sexual abuse of a child. They MAY help your kids if they are attacked by a stranger while they're carrying their long arm, but statistics confirm that many, many sexual attacks on children are by people they know and trust. Those 'attacks' occur after a period of 'grooming'.
Your children are unlikely to whip out their long arms to take down a friendly family member over an action they may not understand, don't you think?
Hi there, SeanE! I don't have any kids.
WW asked me for a divorce 4 months ago. I spent those 4 months financing an affair for her.
Then I discovered MB, asked for advice, and decided to step up to the plate and BE A MAN. Killed the affair stone-cold dead 5 days after my first post here. W moved back in to our apartment THAT NIGHT. That was 3 nights ago. Two tough days of depression. Then there was today.
We just spent the evening talking from 6 PM - midnight. Planned some fun stuff to do over the weekend, cooked a meal for each other, and discussed how I can best meet her need for affection, spruced up the living room--she pulled the pilling off the sofa pillows, I beat the heck out of them outside. She spent today looking for/applying for jobs, for the first time since asking for D.
Oh, and no wayward activity on Facebook, physical whereabouts, etc. And she agreed to MB coaching, with our first session next Monday.
A week ago? I was lucky to get a half hour of time a week with her, and only to discuss financial matters. On the day of exposure? She hated me. The day after, when I told her to sign the no contact letter? "Now I will NEVER be friends with you and I'm going to send you one of these some day!"
This can be YOU. Now go move back in to your house, collect evidence, and expose.
I'm only doing this because I love my W, I think she's pretty, I think she's smart, and I want to be around her. You have kids who NEED you. Do it for them.
At the very least get the other guy out of your house before he starts touching your little girls. That's not a joke. Go read the statistics.
BTW .. my mom told my dad he could see us anytime too ... But guess what .. she lied ... she moved constantly to avoid him. So even though i was supposed to visit him every 2nd weekend she moved often so he couldnt find us .. then blamed him for not taking us telling us he didnt want to visit us and make HIM out to be the bad guy. Told me that my dad would take me away and never let me see my mom again etc ..
All she wanted was the child support and did everything in her power to not allow us to visit my dad .. until the courts got involved and forced my mom to report when she moved so they could inform my dad as he had parental rights that my mom was trying to avoid.
DONT BE THAT DAD.. FIGHT FOR YOUR MARRIAGE AND CHILDREN!
MNG
I'm at a loss to understand how, looking back at this, you could think it would have worked if they stayed together?
Is the assumption that if they had stayed together your mom would have been different? she would have found love again for your dad and everything would have worked out?
I will always fight for my children. And I will fight for my marriage...as I have since I found out about the phone calls on May 10th.
Plan A did not work.
Isn't this essentially Plan B?
Does plan B say...go back to the home?
You are saying Plan B and make her leave... I get that. But I am already gone. My contact with her is essentially limited to that which involves the kids or the financial situaiton (bills that need to be paid).
Sean your wife does not have a legal Court Order.
That is what matters. Not what is in her crazy selfish head.
You have legal right to reside there. You need to move back now
Nobody can help you if you refuse to act.
Sean.
You have already decided to quit.
You've made it clear that you would prefer to lie to children and help cover up your wife's affair.
Youve made it clear you are content being married to a woman that has sex with a "roofer" while you pay her bills. While your kids are in the home.
I understand. My aunt discovered her husband of 30 years had a black book with names of call girls and the sex acts they performed. She left him but decided to go back and accept it because she couldn't stand up for herself. Today she just pretends everything is normal.
However I can assure you your kids know that everything is not normal and you are teaching them a terrible life lesson about how little to value marriage.
Well 25 years from now you can look back as you see your children divorce and have affairs (things they learned from their mom and dad) and maybe, just maybe you can offer them some insight and suggest they value and FIGHT for what is right
Sean,
If you think it is over with your wife or not worth trying anymore, fine. Move home and see what happens. Let her move out if she likes. Be the dad your kids need, the one that puts them ahead of pride. Let them see you are there for them and let your wife know you have done nothing wrong and if she wants to be a part of "your" family she had better have NC with OM and work the Marriagebuilders program with you. If not let her go and fight for custody. The family and friends are more likley to side with the parent that is taking care of the kids. Be that man.
dan
Hey Sean. I thought I would check to see if you updated. I know it is difficult to keep reading everyone tell you to do something that YOU don't want to do, don't feel you can do, or don't think you can do. I know, I am there.
I think all "newbies" on here get that feeling b/c what we are being told to do is so opposite of what we want to do, what we think is the next right thing, or b/c fear is blinding us, etc.... For the longest time, I thought I could talk some sense into him. Now, I know that is so completely never going to be something I can do. Fear is my biggest issue. It paralyzes me in place and holds me back. I guess you could look at it a few different ways:
1. Open up your mind to the ideas being presented here to SAVE your marriage. These pros are giving strategic ideas to bring about the changes that are necessary to just get you to the threshold of the possibility of working on your marriage. Really, understanding why the stragegies are so important and so effective is key here. You are really at war to save your marriage. Nicey, nice, agreeable, trying not to make waves or upset her is NOT helping you or working for you. It is not doing anything to create the environment of security that your children HAVE to have. You cannot and will not EVER be able to please or not upset your WW b/c she is wayward and ALWAYS looking for something she can blame you for to justify her actions! She is in the "selfish, thinking this fantasy is real, demonizing you to feel better about her choices, re-writing history, chasing her fix mode." You CANNOT reason with people who are like this!! These feelings she is feeling towards this other man and what she is receiving from this other man are VERY POWERFUL!!! They are the most powerful things. Her vows, promises, life she built or even her family pale in comparison and are not more important to her than these feelings she is feeling with the other man. In this fog, they will give up everything!! They will lose everything!! That is, until they are given a reason to wake up from their selfish fantasy fog. I hope you can see that. These directions are strategically designed to help you to get your wife to hit rock bottom. You are going to have to let her hit the bottom by having all the consequences and responsibility for her actions fall squarely on her. Then, it won't be so easy, feel good, always fun and exciting, no problems, fantasy sex world for wifey anymore. THAT is when she has the greatest chance of a fog break. Don't go out of your way or be mean to make it hard on her, just let the realities of real life, the burden of her responsibilities, her shame, etc.. do their work. It is the hardest thing to let them fall, but this is YOUR weapon!!
Or
2. Don't heed the advice, cut corners, not break her fantasy fog, continue down this road, keep trying to get her to see the light, continuing to allow deceipt, disrespect, triggers into your life, continuing to finance her selfish, non-family oriented adulterous lifestyle, while you kill yourself trying to get her to see what she is doing. Don't spin your wheels to keep trying to get her to see that she is destroying your marriage, your family, destroying your kids. Giving all of your energy to this black hole will tear you down. You will not be the father or man you know you can be or need to be b/c this will drag you down. Your kids suffer trememdously, and you suffer tremendously with this option.
Or
3. You don't heed the advice and directions and just divorce her and lose the marriage. Just walk away from the problems. All the problems that come with that have their repercussions too.
I spent time writing this to you b/c it took me a long time to get that these people here KNOW what they are talking about. They are objective and know HOW to break the cycle. We are too close to it, minimizing, not willing to see the importance in what they are saying b/c we are blinded to the truth b/c of our own fog, fears and or reservations.
Please consider these directions for you and the kids. What is the best course of action to take for you to find peace so you can think that will be the best course of action for your children, their security, their happiness?
So...she is still with the other guy and I got her to admit it (gps records she could not deny) and have told her father again (I told him I would only give him the information he wanted and he said he wanted to know).
She won't stop seeing him.
We had heart to heart...both of us holding hands and crying...real emotions and discussion...but then when it came time to give him up...she would not.
You need to tell everyone about the affair, including your daughters. She is out of her mind on affair high and cannot make rational decisions.
Move back home. Let her leave if she wants to.
You say she's a great mother. Just watch the deterioration that happens as time goes on and the affair continues. It's an addiction and she's getting sicker and sicker.
Do you want to say married because if you do, go back a re-read the thread and follow the advice to a T. Seriously, tears and hand wringing ain't going to break her out of this mess.
So...she is still with the other guy and I got her to admit it (gps records she could not deny) and have told her father again (I told him I would only give him the information he wanted and he said he wanted to know).
She won't stop seeing him.
We had heart to heart...both of us holding hands and crying...real emotions and discussion...but then when it came time to give him up...she would not.
Sir you refused to follow any advice to stop this.
Are you willing to follow the Marriage builder program and fight for your marriage and family?
We had heart to heart...both of us holding hands and crying...real emotions and discussion...but then when it came time to give him up...she would not.
And then you and the kids sadly waved as she left your home...yes?
Or are you still allowing her to live in your presence with this crap? Please tell me you showed her the door.
ETA: Please be kind enough to allow her to take a change of clothes.
We had heart to heart...both of us holding hands and crying...real emotions and discussion...but then when it came time to give him up...she would not.
Yuck.
You didn't seriously offer her absolution for all of the damage that she's done, did you?
You are the second poster in a week that has done this and, well, will get the same response:
Her tears are her own damned problem. She caused it and don't you DARE sit there and let her cry on your shoulder after she just reamed you up the rear.
What the hell!?!
I agree, somewhat, with maritalbliss: She does need to be shown the door, but her clothes can follow her in an airborne fashion rather than in a suitcase. Well, I'm not a complete hard-[censored]. Put her crap in a Hefty sack by the curb on trash day, let her know where it is and call it a day.
Sean, why are you even here? You seem to have no intentions of engaging in the necessary actions to save your marriage. Your wife is whoring around with another man, and YOU leave the house? Alone with your kids? What the hell are you thinking????
Are you trying to be nice in an attempt to win her back? Won't work.
Are you trying to show her you care about her by abandoning her and the kids because she has an itchy spot in her panties? Won't work.
Are you trying to save your marriage, or just willing to hand your wife AND your kids over to another man and blog about it?
So far, every damned thing you have done so far has failed, and failed miserably. If I were you, I would start considering a different strategy, because the one you have right now is failing miserably.
Look, you are letting everyone in your life down right now...especially your kids, and believe it or not, your WW. Do you really want to live the rest of your life knowing you did NOT do everything you could to protect them, and her, from this POSOM that is systematically breaking up your family? If you're okay with that, well then...........
So far though your actions indicate you are okay with that. I really don't get it, but it's not my family we're talking about here, is it? This is YOUR family!!
You're just gonna sit around and let this happen?
Your wife is whoring around with another man, and YOU leave the house?
Wait a minute.
Sean, are you still living out of a suitcase?
I stopped mc too, but the counselor we had was not buying the fog and the blaming and the finger pointing. He was on my side (not that he chose sides, but he did say I did nothing to deserve this and wouldn't buy fog excuses). He even refused to see WH again as long as he was still seeing OW in anyway, even in passing. He said she needs to be 100 percent gone before he would even consider working with WH again. So not all counselors are going to be a bad idea but I can see how some might be.