So, I found out about my wife's affair on 1/7. I found out when I took her to the hosp with severe cramps and bleeding. She was mis-carrying his baby. We've been married for 20 years and have 3 sons. I was a wreck and actually prayed for God to take me home right then and there. I had no idea how I could survive this. The only thing I could say was absolutely no more contact with him. She agreed... more on that in a minute.

We both volunteered for the same fire dept and he is one of the officers there. She had been there for about 3 years when the affair started and I had just joined. That killed me because I joined to be able to spend more time with her. Anyway, the affair lasted for 8 months and she ended up pregnant. She claims that she was going to tell me but then the miscarriage happened and it all came out. Not sure what to believe.

I texted him and told him absolutely no more contact with my wife which he did not comply with. She didnt tell me about the continued contact, I had a feeling in my gut and found a FB message from him which she had not deleted yet. Yes, I blew up. She promised no more lies. We resigned from the FD and after I found the continued contact I told the Chief what had happened and asked him to step in and order him to stop. That was last night. The Chief has a strict set of rules on behavior and how it affects the dept so he was glad to help. I haven't heard back from him yet as to how that conversation went. Hopefully soon. My next step will be a harassment complaint with the police.

I stumbled across this site today while looking for resources on how to repair a marriage after an affair and I'm looking forward to some relevant input from others that have/are dealing with this.

Thanks

Welcome to MB and sorry for the pain that has brought you here.

Good job on exposing to the FD.

Is this OM married?

Will she write a No Contact Letter to him?

Have you been STD tested?

WOW, welcome to Marriage Builders. I am sorry for the reasons that brought you here. There is a very strict path out of infidelity and we can help you. You have taken some very good first steps by exposing the affair to the Chief and by leaving the FD, so I want to applaud you for that.

Exposure is the first step towards recovery, because the more people who know, the more people to support your marriage and hold your wife accountable. I would expose to the OM's wife, if any, your close family, friends, and most especially your children. Doing this has a major effect on your wife's affair fantasy and helps pierce her fog.

The next step is to take extraordinary precautions to prevent another affair or a resumed affair. That is done by creating transparency. She should cut off any avenue of contact from the OM, such as her cell phone #, email address, and most especially delete facebook. Facebook accounts are notorious affair facilitators.

The idea is that all contact should end for LIFE. If you live close to this rat, I would make plans to move. Do what you have to do to make sure there are no accidental meetings and that it is not easy for her to meet up with him.

Once your marriage is affair proofed, the next step is to use the Basic concepts to create a romantic relationship. These steps can be found in the book, Surviving an Affair.

Please go read the links in the first post on this forum to familiarize yourself with this program. Marriage Builders is completely different from any other program in that its goal is to restore the romantic love in your marriage and have a better marriage AFTER than before.

here


[from SAA, pg 58]

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, XXXXX

Our Pastor and his wife (also our best friends) were at the hospital with us that night. Another couple in church, that has made it thru a series of affairs (6 years so far) also know and are helping us. He is married but WW is afraid that the OMW will try to hurt her if she knows. I think she already knows because we bumped into her in the store and she gave us the cold shoulder. I'm holding that card for now, we'll see what happens.

WW seems like she is going thru some withdrawal on this so we're discussing the letter to end it. I think she'll do it this week.

I wont let her go very many places without me. She works in the next town over on their ambulance so there is a chance of them bumping into each other at the local hospitals. Any grocery shopping is done together and she accounts for any other travel that she has to do.

I haven't exposed her to anyone else yet because I'm concerned for her reputation. I know that sounds weak but if/when we get thru this, I dont want everyone to hate her. My 2 oldest sons know but not the youngest. He's 12 and knows there something wrong but not the details. If I out her to everyone, then he gets destroyed in the process.

Have you read this?
Exposure 101

OMW and your DS12 need to be told.

There are clips and writings in the Exposure 101 thread from Dr. Harley on the importance of telling children and the other betrayed spouse.

Some food for thought, 777:

NOT personally telling the other man's wife what you know could well turn out to be one of the biggest mistakes you could make.

The other man's wife is your best possible set of eyes & ears (besides your own) on him & on your wife. Her knowledge (ensured by your personally telling her what you know) adds a layer of accountability. It makes it less likely that your wife & the other man will try to get together or resume contact in these next few days & weeks when it's crucial to get her through withdrawal without resumption of contact.
"But his wife might try to hurt me if she finds out." I'm sorry, but that's the oldest song in the wayward's playbook after they've been outed & are trying to cover their butts. They ALL say this! Odds are that it's complete malarkey. How many betrayed spouses actually decide to go & do something to get themselves put into jail, on top of the difficulty of dealing with their spouses' infidelity? It happens, but hardy ever. Otherwise you'd read about it in your local newspaper every single day.

Y'know how I know what I know & why I think what I think? Because I'm a guy who was in an affair a little over 4 years ago. I will tell you, the day I pulled the plug on the affair was they day I learned that the other woman's husband had found out about it. I'll tell you today that his finding out about the affair forced me to choose between right & wrong.

Y'see, as it turned out, his finding out about the affair I was having with his wife had the intended effect of stopping the affair. By doing so, it also had the unintended effect of saving my marriage. It saved my family. It may well have saved my life.

777, do you think you know more than I do about how affairs work? I hope to God you'll never know everything I know about affairs; and I hope you'll consider what I have to say here, because I don't get a penny for spending time saying it to you. It's all offered gratis, for your benefit.

Setting aside the moral question of how you're gonna justify, to yourself, a choice to abet a coverup to conceal from that poor woman the information you have about the crime that's been perpetrated on her marriage (and good luck dragging that chain around, from a guy who knows about dragging chains), and simply from the perspective of your self-interest in giving yourself the best chance of killing the affair & thus saving your marriage (if that's the outcome you want), then you'd be best advised to get in touch with the other man's wife, to share what info you know. Not only is it the only decent thing to do, but it also happens to be the smartest choice -- not as a vindictive measure against your wife, but as a gesture to help put in place accountability that ultimately can help put another barrier between her & a resumption of the affair.

I'm not saying you need to tell everyone in the world. But the affair partner's spouse? This is basic, fundamental, step #1.

The marriage you save could be your own. The life you save could be your wife's.
Please think about this.

This is right where you should start. The OMW has to be told and Dr Harley recommends the telling comes from you, the betrayed spouse. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so keeping it a secret will greatly harm your chances. The OMW needs to know so she can watch from her end and protect herself and her children from your wife and her husband. Your wife has assaulted her family and she has every right to know.


I would ask her to write a letter like the one I posted above. It should be approved by you and mailed together. You can mail it to him and his wife. However, I would call his wife FIRST so she is not caught by surprise.


Those are all chances for the affair to start up again. Every time they see each other puts you and her right back to day 1 of recovery and makes it very likely the affair will resume. It is the equivalent of a "recovering" alcoholic taking another drink.

Every accidental meeting means her withdrawal starts over - that is if you are lucky enough to avoid a resumed affair, which is very unlikely.


It will be a good idea to let others know right away. Especially your children. If you don't tell your children, they will hear it from others. This is information about their lives. To lie to them about the source of tension in their home is to teach them that dishonesty is accceptable. It helps NO ONE to lie to them about the affair. No one. Children are not made happy or secure believing illusions about their parents. It just causes moral confusion.

And don't worry about your wife's reputation. When people are as reckless and dangerous as she and the OM are, others need to know so they can protect themselves. It will help your wife having others know so they can help hold her accountable.

Keeping her affair a secret is HARMFUL to her, you, your children, and the marriages of others. It sure doesn't help your wife by keeping her secret.

Wow I know that you are hurt and confused right now. But withholding this information from the OM BW is just outright wrong.


OM BW is the other victim here and she deserves to know the truth about her life.

I am betting that you would have given anything for someone to pick up the phone and tell you what was going on. Yet you are refusing to do that yourself.

As far as OM BW hurting your wife...chances are better that she will focus her anger on her own wayward husband. Please don't come back and tell us that OM BW is unstable...of course she is. That is what affairs do to the betrayed...especially when they are being gaslighted.

When I as she is worried for her own safety, its because we've all been to the range together and we know her emotional stability...

I will tell you something else. Your wife will NEVER recover if you don't tell the OM's wife. A person cannot recover with such an enormous lie on her lips. That is because she can't recover unless she makes amends to her victim. She will remain in a state of fog that will make it much more likely for the affair to resume.

Ask yourself if the bank robber can "recover" if he never admits his crime and returns the money.

Don't enable your wife in that way. I can understand why she might want to lie to her victim - she is still fogged out and high on her affair - but you have no such excuses.

You want your wife to come out of this and truly repent? Then help her do that. Don't help her continue her crime by helping her delude her victim. If you do, then you are an accessory to the crime.

Your wife is dangerous, manipulative and emotionally unstable. She has assaulted this man's wife. And she has a right to know what your wife has done so she can protect herself and her children.

Don't help your wife be a bad guy by being an enabler. Help her out of the sewer.

That is a lie. If your wife was "worried about her own safety," she wouldn't have been taking her panties down with this woman's husband.

Even so, that does not entitle your wife to destroy another woman and her children behind their backs. Your wife is dangerous. And the OMW needs to know so she can protect herself.

I see your points and I appreciate them all. I obviously have no experience at this so I'm hesitant. I'll work on telling her this week. Wish me luck with that one

Exposure does not ruin a reputation. Having an affair with a married man, not taking ownership of it, and not working to make amends to your victims ruins a reputation.

x2

Why did she not have this 'fear' when she was engaging in an affair?

This, btw, is a VERY common thing for people to post on here. "My WW/WH is afraid that the BS will hurt them. They are unstable, you know." Ah huh. So dangerous and unstable you decided to mess with their spouse. Strange...

This excuse could be in the book of standard wayward speak. Keep reading these threads for a month and I bet you hear it several more times.

Bottom line is, your wife does not want to face the consequences to her actions. She also does not want her lovers spouse to know because he might just decide she's not worth the drama anymore, and that would mean an end to her little fantasy affair.

Hrm...sounds like that would support your goal here wouldn't it???

Your FIRST plan of action here needs to be to KILL THE AFFAIR. The main tool in your arsenal for that is exposure.

WOW, do not warn your wife or the OM before you tell her. Don't work on it, just pick up the phone and tell the woman. Just call her up and tell her everything. Then sit your children down and give them all the facts.

The next most glaring issue is the fact that your wife might "run into" this rat in her job. Do you understand that means you are facing an on again, off again affair? Every time she sees him she will be triggered again and the affair will be back on. Next time she may not have a miscarriage.

I just wanted to point out here that these are not 'our' points. The posters here (who have all been affected by infidelity in some way) advise based on the Marriage Builders principles, created by Dr Harley, who has been saving marriages from infidelity for over 30 years.

Just want you to know these are not the opinions of a few betrayed spouses, but rather the program followed by many of us (betrayed and wayward) to restore our own marriages and/or lives following infidelity. They were created by an expert who DOES have experience at this.

I realize that. By saying that I see your points, I'm basically saying that I appreciate your input and agree that its correct. I know it comes from Dr Harley and the MB programs. Thanks again :-)

You don't need luck. All you need is to be the one to decide to stand up and do the right thing.

You don't seem to see that OM BW is your greatest ally. She is your extra set of eyes on OM who has already shown you that he will continue to contact your wife and spit in your face.

I am pinpointed the err of your thinking here, that you can at this point 'trust' anything your WW says. You cannot. Affairs have a very addictive nature, and the behaviors exhibited by those in affairs easily resembles people with other addictions. You have to assume at this point, while she is still foggy in this affair, that anything she says is NOT true.

A foggy WS in the midst of an entrenched affair (which this clearly is) saying 'no more lies' is the equivalent of a falling down drunk saying he is OK to drive home.

As ML said, do NOT tell her/warn her about exposure. Her main interest right now is to protect her affair, NOT to do the right thing or recover your marriage.

unwritten is correct. The "promises" of a wayward are about as meaningful as the rantings of a falling down drunk who "promises" to never drink again on his way into the bar. Don't EVER go by her WORD, go by her ACTIONS. Only believe what you can verify and see with your own eyes. Everything else should be presumed a lie.

And I would be slapping a GPS on her car and spyware on her phone. You can get a zoombak GPS at Best Buy and buy spyware for her phone online. Go to the Operation Investigate forum to get some ideas on good spyware.

There is another man who showed up yesterday whose wife is pregnant from her affair. That could be YOU if you don't take a very, very proactive approach to stopping this affair. You already know she doesn't use protection.

OM BW will respond better hearing about the affair from you.


Don't think that OM BW won't find out...


at some point down the road.


Get it done now so you can move toward recovery and not have to keep looking over your shoulder.

The speed at which you let the other guy's wife in on the affair is critical because the longer you delay, the more time he has to turn your wife into "the chaser", the "whacko", the one who pursued him in to bed.

Plus, Im sure she already knows her husband is a slug, she should be relieved she has someone to help her corral him with regard to one woman at least.

I agree. You seem to be familiar with this couple. Why not do this tonight? There is no reason to delay. Let us know how it goes.

Why burden yourself and your already failing marriage with the task of keeping her "dirty little secret" any longer. You have a long road ahead of you, might as well get the best start possible.

I'll have to do it in the morning. He leaves early for work (5:00 ish) and WW leaves at 7:20. I'll have some time to talk to her around then.

Yes, I do know them. He was my station Captain in the FD and she used to be a member also. My youngest son cat/dog sat for them when they went on vacation and we've been shooting with them several times over the last year.

Wish me luck!!

Good luck! Will be holding you to it and checking in the AM to see that it's done! Remember no warning WW that you are going to contact OMW.

Go for it, Wow! You can do this...

Good job wow!!

WOW777. My FWH had an affair with the wife of one our family friends. I was the BW who was seen as "emotionally unstable." And you know what...I was. I was INSANE from all the gaslighting.

The truth set me free. I did not go on a rampage to hurt the OW ( although I would have liked to.)

The truth gave me the chance to recover my own marriage because I finally knew the real problem.

MB will give you best chance to recover your marriage but you will need nerves of steel to do the things outside of your comfort zone.

Be strong. MB works only when do each and every step. Telling the other victim and putting an end to the lies and secrets is a great step forward.

I'm confused (concerned) by this statement. WHEN do you plan to talk to the BW and WHAT would you have to talk to your WW about???

I am concerned that you are going to talk to her about your PLAN. That is like putting together a plan at the Superbowl, and then walking across the field to show it to the opposing team before the play. You understand why that is a bad, bad idea right?

I'm sorry that I wasn't clear. POSOM leaves for work at 05:00 and WW leaves for her work at 07:30. That is when I will be alone to call BW.

Be strong, my man. OMWs' reactions have ranged from grateful and thankful for the information to 'dont ever effing call me again about this and you and whore wife should rot in hell'.

Either way, its all good because your wife sounds like there's regret and you have support from friends. You two can begin the good stuff in this process like lots of alone time and she can make just compensation to you and you can figure out just where she got off your train and onto his.

MB protocol is you get all bits of informationa about the affair that you require up front. And never to bring it up again. Tough biscuits, but it makes way too much sense. Every time you bring it, you turn back the clock on recovery.

Anyway, first things first, make the call and come back here for next steps. We're with you, man.

Too bad. Adultery is risky business.


Put a hidden GPS on her vehicle today. After exposure may be too late. Once your WW finds out about exposure to OM's W, OM & your wife may attempt to meet somewhere. Get that GPS done before WW leaves for work tomorrow!
Go to radio shack and get both a GPS and a VAR to hide inside her vehicle. Ask the store employees to help you select.


Too late. WW was not very concerned for her own reputation. It is what it is.


Guess what? You have neither the power, nor the moral right to dictate how others react. Other married women need to know your wife is not safe to be around their husbands.


You'd rather your 12 year old be left confused and wondering if he is somehow to blame for the tension in the home? You are wrong. Your son will grow and learn only from the truth.

Best of luck on exposure day.

Another thing to be mindful of...

Be mindful of boundaries with regards to OM's wife. Many revenge affairs occur between the betrayed spouses whereupon one or both of them believe doing so is a way to hurt the person that intruded into their family. Revenge affairs are NOT poetic justice. They make matters much worse for everyone involved. It may be the furthest thing from your mind right now but this kind of trauma has a way of effecting (affecting?) sound decision making. Keep your distance from her (as well as any female friends married or single). You are vulnerable right now.

Just inform her and let her know you are available to discuss and strategize breaking up the affair and keeping these two separated (information sharing), however, beyond that you are not to be her emotional confidant and support system. Tell her you are too focused on your hurt, your family and your marriage to be of any real emotional help to her in her situation.

Also...sometimes exposure goes smoothly but it doesn't hurt to be prepared for the worst. Your wife might go completely nuts that you did this and to such an extent that you begin to wonder if you made a mistake. Don't second guess yourself. In the end, no one here regrets exposure. It's the right thing to do....period, end of story. Since the cat is already out of the bag you CAN give your wife an "ooops, I didn't realize this would upset you" kind of innocent approach as if you really do regret it without apologizing. Might help smooth things over for a bit, understanding that once you recover...she'll understand you did exactly what you needed to do to save her from the mess she was creating of your lives and she'll thank you for exposing.

Godspeed,

Mr. Wondering

Wow777,

BTW, one of the things that makes a married woman "crazy" is that she has been lied to for years and years.

She finds charges for hotels on the credit card, notices lipstick on Hs collars, empty condom wrappers, but somehow OM is able to convince her that nothing is going on. Deep down she feels sick knowing that she is being duped, but never has enough time, energy or luck to get the answers she deserves.

Yes tell the OMW, it's the least you can do, it's no different from reporting a bank robbery in progress.

I say this having seen it so many times, and often the wife doesn't divorce the rat until it's too late in life to enjoy anything.

God Bless
Gamma

T/J


Affecting (since you asked!)

Effects: what happens as a result of some action or the other
Effecting: Causing an effect

Hence "effecting sound decision making" actually translates to "CAUSING sound decision making" which is certainly not the meaning you intended.

Well, POSOM's wife already knows. I got the FU response and a loud hangup...

WW and I talked a lot last night about the Fog and withdrawal stages. The importance of an NC letter and how sharp it has to be. She is definitly concerned about his feelings so I explained why it needs to be emotionless (concerning them) and focus on the pain and suffering that I have been caused and trying to fix that.

She's reluctant but there was a hopeful sign in our conversation. She assured me that it had been over for her and that she never tried to contact him since 1/7. When he contacted her over the weekend she said that she felt nothing and didn't want to talk to him. When I reminder her that she deleted the conversations and never told me and that she went right back into the lie she seemed to realize that she was addicted to him and really didn't want to let him go. I think that was a break through because she started seeing things from my perspective. Anyway, we ended the conversation on a good note and wished each other a Happy Valentines Day this morning. She'll work on the NC letter tonight and we'll finish it and mail it tomorrow or Sat morning.

Isn't hope great? I know we have a looonnngggg way to go and a lot of bumps getting there but I'm cherishing EVERY good moment.

Even though you got the FU response......you did right and well. Good job.

That's okay. YOU did the right thing and that will make you feel good - down the road - when you look back at how you handled your side of the street. Although I'm sure you don't feel that right now.

Be strong Wow. Have you bought the book Surviving an Affair?

Good job on OMW exposure. You need to expose to friends and family who can support your marriage and keep WW accountable as well. OM's friends and family should also be exposed to, to keep him accountable.

It's great that your WW has agreed to send the NC letter.

My wife stayed in her long term affair well after the relationship ended and addiction may be an appropriate excuse however unfathomable it may be.

You seem very levelheaded and calm. Excellent qualities for recovery.

LOL, level headed and calm... Not what WW would say. The last few years of unhappiness have caused me to have some anger issues. At least that will be worked on when we get to the recovery stage and start making those deposits :-)

I suggest you work on those anger issues now. For yourself and a better chance st recovering your marriage.

I've seen the outbursts more and more since D-Day and I'm starting to see how destructive they have been.

Years ago, I was part of a karate school for 15 years. I had complete control over my anger and rarely ever got mad at anyone (except stupid drivers. They've always made me mad). I need to get back to that place where I'm at peace with the world, and myself. This will take lots of prayer time.

I've seen the outbursts more and more since D-Day...

Very typical, almost to the point of being predictable.
Use a gym, punch a bag, exhaust yourself. It will help.

I just started P90X again. 2 weeks in so far. The good news is, we're doing it together so we're already working on building the 15-20 hours a week of undivided attention.

Shortly after D-Day, I took her to the very spot that I proposed to her on Feb 10th, 1991. I recommitted my love to her and promised to pursue a path to reconciliation if thats what she wanted. She agreed so thats why I'm here and moving forward.

Our next date will be to the resturant where we had our first date on her 21st birthday... Maybe next week if the NC letter goes out by then

= levelheaded.

I am not hopeful. I am sorry to throw rain on your parade, but there are so many red flags here that I hardly know where to begin.

The first huge gaping HOLE is that she is still in contact with him. She was contact with him LAST WEEKEND, so the affair is really not over. As long as he has a free pass to get through to her the affair is NOT OVER. Every time he contacts her is the equivalent of an alcoholic taking another drink. One drink leads to a binge.

As long as he is free to get through, your marriage is in danger. And every time she sees him at work, you can consider the affair BACK ON. Recovery is impossible until ALL contact ends.

That means that she makes it next to impossible for him to get through by changing her phone #, email, deleting her facebook page and most certainly making sure she has a job where she will NEVER run across him.

This is STEP ONE. Unless you close the door entirely, there is no hope.

I will post the no contact letter that Dr Harley recommends in my next post. It should be approved by you and mailed together.


Next red flag. WHAT does she know exactly? Does she know her rat husband got your wife pregnant? It is very ODD that a betrayed spouse hangs up on another betrayed spouse. That does not make sense. UNLESS.... her WH got to her and spun a wild story about "crazy WOW777 has lost his mind and is telling people I am having an affair with his wife!! The guy is a nutbag!!" So when you call to tell the BW, she is angry you are spreading lies. Did this happen? Did your wife give the OM a heads up that you knew?


A fart in the wind has more significance. The "assurances" of a falling down drunk mean nothing. Nothing. You can NEVER go by her words, you must go by her ACTIONS.

And what do her actions tell you? She was in contact with the OM LAST WEEKEND. She does not want to send him a no contact letter because she doesn't want to hurt his feelings. <----THAT is all you have. That is the REALITY of the situation.

If you want to get thrown off balance and lose this war, then take your eye off her ACTIONS and focus on her WORDS. If you want to save your marriage, then plug your ears and watch her ACTIONS.

ACTION: in contact with OM last weekend
doesn't want to send OM no contact letter

WORDS: the affair is "over for her"

here


[from SAA, pg 58]

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, XXXXX

When you said that BW already knew, I was thinking that she found out from actions from the Chief. I honestly do not believe that OM would have told his BW the truth especially given that he is still in contact with your WW.


Have you followed up with the Chief to find out what is happening?

Here's where we are today

1. Yes, I have the book on kindle
2. Melody... There is no parade to rain on. Oh and BTW, it's already raining no matter where I go.
3. The little bit of hope that I have is from seeing in her eyes that she's starting to understand the nature of the addiction. She knows that my job is to hold her accountable and her job is to break off the A and deal with the withdrawal stage.
4. She works in the next town over during the day and during the week. No nights or weekends. He volunteers in our town on nights & weekends and works out of town during the weekdays. There is almost no chance that they will see each other at all. In fact, she left the FD in our town to get away from him.
5. The other possible means of contact (facebook, phone#, email, etc) are being changed/deleted. That takes a little time since she has to notify some people of the new #'s and emails. He no longer has a free pass to contact her.
6. She wrote a NC letter today that I was very happy with. We're going to make a few changes tonight and then I'll post it for you to review. The first draft was pretty good though.
7. I've taken some other steps to hold her accountable also. I dont want to mention them here in case she comes on here as I want them to be private for now.

Today is Valentines Day and I got her flowers and a card. I know it's her actions that I have to watch. Thats the manner in which I live. I always look at what people say vs what they do. Ronald Reagan said, "Trust, but verify" and thats the mode that I have to operate in. I know you'll say dont trust at all, but realistically, ther verification part of that statement shows a certain amount of distrust. She had a fall over the weekend and didn't tell me about the contact. I'm more prepared now to find these contacts if they do happen and I can deal with them. We're already talking about getting the house ready to sell and moving south too.

Oh, and I dont know what she knows exactly as she hung up on me. Should I care about that? What can I do to get thru to her?

Wow777,

You need to press home your exposure of OM, he has no business being in any leadership role at a fire department. Did you expose him there and at his workplace? I would threaten a lawsuit against the department and the local municipality.

God Bless
Gamma

Yes, I've spoken to the Chief. I'll make another attempt with OMW and see if I can get thru.

I'm not sure what the grounds would be for a lawsuit though.

Wow, what do you mean he no longer has a free pass to contact her? As long as he has her phone #, email and facebook account, he can contact her. He is free to resume the affair any time as long as he can get through. And every time he gets through is a huge trigger for your wife's addiction.

Do you have any evidence other than your WW confession? Like cell phone logs, emails, etc.

Can you text her and tell her the down and dirty? Something like,

"Sally, I was confused when you hung up on me and want to make sure you know about WW and OM's affair. The affair has gone on for XX months and ended on 1-7-13 when WW miscarried OM's baby. I was hoping you would be my ally in making sure they don't start the affair again. Can we talk and exchange evidence?"

Thats a good idea Melody. I dont have her cell# but I can try to track it down.

I dont have any other evidence like phone logs/emails because they were all deleted before I could save them. I can get anything new though so I'll be watching for them closely.

Here's the NC letter. Let me know what you think. She wrote it by hand

OM,This is a letter of closure. You need to know and understand that it is truly over. I have made the decision to reconcile with DH and to heal the damage I have done to him and with my family. The relationship we had was a cruel selfish indulgence and completely against vows I took and the covenant I made with DH 20 years ago. I need to be DH�s wife and all that this means in being a good wife to him. Please respect my desire to end our relationship I need you to not ever contact me again. Any further contact will not be accepted or tolerated and anything received will be seen by DH. You will need to make every effort not to have any interaction with me.

Your WIFE is responsible for making sure he does not get through to her. So the line that he "needs to take every effort to not have any interaction..." needs to be taken out. Asking him to "make an effort" is not the same as "DON'T EVER CONTACT ME AGAIN."

But more than that, she needs to make SURE he can't contact her.

That line was put in to make it his responsibility that, if he sees her or her car that he is not to try to approach her, ie, in the grocery store or hospital. The line above it makes it clear that he is to never contact her again.

But, it's not his responsibility. It is yours. He can do whatever he wants and you have no control over that.

You do realize that she may approach him, right? That is what happens when you don't change your environment to make it harder to resume contact. If they see each other accidentally, they will both be triggered and that is how affairs resume. And even if they don't, they can easily hook up again if they live or work close together.

Asking him not to approach her is futile. Asking her not to approach him is futile and will not protect against an affair. Will power and their marital vows did not protect them in the past and won't protect them in the future.


Entire article at: here

How to Survive an Affair chapter in HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS
p. 177

...I have seen husbands build new and wonderful relationships with their wives but then go back to their lovers after five or six years of what appeared to be marital bliss. When I ask them why, they inevitably tell me they miss the woman terribly and still love her. At the same time they stoutly affirm they love their wives dearly and would not think of leaving them.

I believe a man like this has told the truth. He is hopelessly entangled and needs all the help possible to be kept away from his lover and stay faithful to his wife. I often recommend that a man once involved in an affair come in to see me every three to six months on an indefinite basis, just to talk about how things are going and to let me know how successfully he has stayed away from his lover. He must resign himself to a lifetime without her. HE MUST CERTAINLY NOT WORK WITH HIS FORMER LOVER AND SHOULD PROBABLY LIVE IN SOME OTHER CITY OR STATE. Even with those restrictions the desire for her company persists...

OK, help me understand this. The NC letter is meant to set the parameters of no contact for life. It's not meant to enforce the NC. Thats my job, I get that. He is being told that he is not allowed to have ANY contact with WW. For life.

I do realize that she may approach him. But the NC letter wont stop that either, no matter how its worded. It only sets her parameters for no contact for life. It's my job to make sure it doesn't happen. Right?

Here's my dilema with the way you're putting things. I have to work. If I'm at work and she decides to go see him, call him, text him or contact him some other way, my ONLY recourse is to have a way to see that and follow up on it. SHE HAS to bear some responsibility for her actions because I cannot be with her 24/7. It's my job to be able to see ANY contact and deal with it after the fact.

Steps taken so far in the last 4 weeks
1. Left the FD
2. She now works in another town
3. She is looking at another job in still another town that doesn't use the same hospital
4. Changing email addresses
5. I have all of her passwords
6. I can "See" other contact if it happens
7. Changing her phone #
8. Working on EN list and how we can fullfill each others needs
9. Finally talking about the issues
10. Planning on moving that is more longer term.

What else can I do? Isn't this plan A? Send the NC letter and start assuring ther is NC and start the restoration process?

This is good stuff! This is the kind of stuff I am talking about and is what will protect your marriage. These holes have to be plugged up. Any potential sightings, meetings, etc, have to be removed as much as humanly possible.

I just want to make sure you understand that her assurances and telling him not to contact her will not work. The no contact letter is a good will gesture to YOU but, as you said, will not stop him from contacting her or vice versa..

How close do you live to each other? Do you live in a small community?

I like the above MB template better than your WW edited version. The MB template sends a strong clear message and better addresses the pain and disrespect to the BS.


This rubs me as a typical break up statement right before the lovers get back together again. It sounds like WW and OM have tried to unsuccessfully end it in the past and are hooked on the drama.

Yes, I do understand these things. Thats why I have some people setup to help keep tabs on them.

We live a few miles apart in a town of only 15K. Pretty small considering we know almost everyone from serving the town for so long in the FD.

Selling the house will take time. We have to get it ready to sell and then the market conditions. I'm willing to take a small hit on the price (after the huge hit the market has already given me), but we're still talking a year before its sold.

You can't know that. All it takes is one buyer.

Hi WOW,
I am not a vet or expert, but I am a former WW.

While it is your responsibility to verify NC, it will be your wife's responsibility to do everything in her power to avoid NC. She may be in withdrawal right now, and in the brainfog.

I can tell you that it took several months for me to not WANT contact. I am not trying to discourage you, but only share my own experience and the power of the addiction. I want you to know what you are up against.

Also, when my husband contacted the OM's wife, he got a similar experience as you. I think she was in denial, and her husband was using that to his advantage. The OM actually called my husband and said he was trying to protect his wife and to quit contacting her.

The steps you have taken are good starts, and I do hope the best for you.

I learned that one in the school of hard knocks when OW started to make appearances at social functions. Recovery was impossible because I was always looking over my shoulder to make sure that OW was not lurking in the shadows.

YOU have to TAKE CONTROL of your life and remove your family from OM social circle and environment.

Can you move and rent out your house? That town is full of triggers for both of you.

I understand you are eager to reconcile and move forward, but you won't get very far if you take a lax approach to holding her accountable. If you haven't installed a GPS, VAR, keyloggers, etc, you should do so ASAP.

My approach is not lax. I dont want to get into the "other" things that I'm doing in case she comes here. Not yet anyway.

Well, I found OMW on FB today and sent her a private message with all of the details. Time to wait and see. I dont know her FB habits so I have no idea how long it will take her to read it. I'll keep you posted on anything that I hear.

Good work WOW.

Good job! You are doing just great..

No word back from OMW yet. Not sure if she read the FB message or not.

Also, still dealing with things being hidden from me. WW's boundaries suck and she has no idea that I know. I don't see her communicating with OM but other people and kinda throwing me under the bus for, get this, making her quit the FD. Like it was my fault.... ugh. She's reading the MB stuff and thinks she's in withdrawal. I keep telling her she can't enter withdrawal until the lies stop. Claims she doesn't know what I mean.

We have a meeting with our pastors Monday night. I'll confront some more of the lies then.

Do the people she is telling know about her affair?

That is exactly why you EXPOSE and ask for support in recovering your marriage.

Not exposing is enabling.

Not yet Melody. These are people that I dont really have access to.

You do now, right?

It only perpetuates her fantasy when she is free to lie to anyone. Telling her friends bursts her fantasy and gains support for doing the right thing. This is why exposure to friends and family is so critical. She should have no one left in her life she can lie to about her affair.

This was an interesting 3 day weekend for us. I had caught WW in a couple of lies last week that she adamently denied and I let it rest for a couple of days because we were meeting with our pastors on Monday night. During our meeting, I told them that we fouond a great website called MB and he said that is a very big proponent of MB and his very next assignment for us was going to be to go and read SAA and HNHN together. I was very glad to see that he was already familiar with MB and was on board with the process.

The conversation progressed and I confronted WW on the lies from the past week. She denied them again and then I brought up some specifics that I knew from texts that I have been monitoring. She then admitted to the conversations and didn't know why she was lying. She didn't want to dissappoint me anymore or make me mad so lying was easier than having to explain things. Now that she knows that I'm monitoring her communications, the lies should stop (he says with hope). I told her that I didn't think she would be able to move into the real withdrawal stage until the lies stopped. The sooner that happenes, the sooner she can go thru withdrawal and start feeling like herself again.

We then started talking about EPs and what she was willing to do. She is putting the list together today.

WW found out about the additional exposure that I have done. She commented that she didnt know that I contacted the OMW or additional people in the FD. I reminded her that I said that I would fight to the death for my marriage and if that meant not telling her about my battle plans then she would have to deal with it. She seemed to understand that logic and never really got too upset.

We setup a twice a week meeting with our pastors for now. She wanted to do twice a day after seeing just how bad things are. I responded with a smile because it came from her heart and I now see some hope in her.

Just a small point.
WW will be REQUIRED to do things that make her 'uncomfortable'.

Here's a tip. When WW says "I'm just not comfortable with that." (something required for recovery and to protect the marriage) ..... you response is....


Listen to her response without commentary/review/critique. Do not argue or attempt to teach her anything. This is a mission to explore where WW stands at the moment.

Then, next opportunity, return to the forum and document her response verbatim. This is a critical point. Many women will use the ploy "That makes me uncomfortable."

Please, keep us updated.

All is not lost. It is time to be strong, not nice.

Our pastor was good about not letting the conversation get too far away from her answering the question, "Are you willing to tell the truth in any circumstance, regardless of what it costs you"? She is reluctant because of how easy it has become to lie (her words, not mine). She agreed that we cant go any further until she is willing to do that. That kinda scared her because the ball is now in her court and she has a decision to make. I know it will be a daily decision for her and I'll need to keep my surveilance in place to keep her honest.

We're all rooting for you and your recovery!

Likewise sounds like your pastor is on the ball. I pray that your recovery is successful!

Man, can I get off this emotional rollercoaster? I keep waking up at 4:00 AM and just laying there thinking. It's a dangerous place to be but I cannot get back to sleep. I have no problem getting to sleep at night (probably because I keep waking up at 4:00) but I can't stay asleep. Maybe I'll take something to help me tonight. Tylonol PM and Sam Adams might do the trick...

I can't get the images of WW with OM out of my head.

You need to control your mind.
Stop the images. Change the thoughts

Just a reminder ...
You are in a very tender stage. Your mind is processing the impossible.
Have you spoken to your physician?

I have not spoken to my physician. I'm a pilot and most of the meds that they will prescribe will ground me... Not an option at this point.

Meditation?
Relaxation exercises?
White noise machine?

Are you able to concentrate while doing your job?
Can you get some time off?

My flying is only recreational, not my main job. I'm a software developer by trade and I dont seem to have a problem concentrating at work. It helps take my mind off of this stuff.

I'm exercising more and that tires me out quite a bit. White noise keeps me up. I generally feel really tired when I go to bed and fall asleep very easily. After about 5-5.5 hours, I wake up and can't go back to sleep.

I think you are actually doing well. Just take care of your physical self. Your mind has been shocked.

Thanks PB.

I guess I should probably explain my overreaction/sensitivity to the pilot issue. I used to fly (stewardess) for Pan Am, back in the golden age of air travel. My life was in the hands of our pilots. During my era, they were mostly WWII vets. An amazing group of men. One pilot stands out as being my hero. He saved my life, and everyone else's life making a wild landing in Tahiti during a severe tropical storm. I was always depending on my pilot to be well rested and mentally sharp.

Aside:
Did you see the Denzel Washington movie Flight? Holy crap! I was climbing all over my chair in the theater during their flight plight.

Hopefully, this conversation will distract you for awhile.

I have not seen that movie yet. I wanted to see it in the theater but I missed it. I'll have to wait for the DVD

BTW, I'm not flying for a while until I get thru this. I can't afford to be in the clouds and get distracted.

<~~~ happy dance

Oh, The Early Days. How I hated thee.

If youre a recreational flyer, than perhaps sideline that activity for a spell and get a 'script for something like Ambien. Them little suckers will put you in la la land in no time. I took a half a pill from time to time to take the edge off serious anxiety and to put me to sleep.

A truism in this crappy existence you are mired in is: a remorseful, regretful formerly adulterous wife living to make things right in your world is about as good as things can get for you.

If you are there already, then reciprocate it back. Even though the images and visions still flurry around my head, it get less and less as time goes on. This is a somewhat universal thing. But, it really only happens when she and you are getting the alone time necessary and you are enthousiastically meeting each other's needs.

You are doing real good.

Frustrated!!! The Fire Chief has not had his conversation with OM yet. Apparently, I cannot ask him to do this, WW has to. Thats fine, but I requested this 9 days ago, AND, I asked for a status update 4 days ago and he only now figures this out.

I told him I want action on this by the end of the week or I start legal action against the FD and the town for letting this go on. Not only that, a couple of towns over from us had their Chief and another member arrested for sexual assault on young girls in their Explorers program. I told our Chief 4 days ago that he should be concerned for the dept and not let things go as far as this other town. Apparently, "it cant happen to us" bull$h*! is in play here...

Sorry for ranting.

Do you have a friend who is an attorney? Nothing spooks people more than a threatening letter from a lawyer. If someone will do for nothing, that would be good.

Well done Wow. Does the Fire Chief have a Chief? MB recommends that you expose to ALL the big guys and cc everyone so that it cannot be swept under the rug.

The movie Flight is at redbox now. Saw it last weekend. Scary!!

I'm considering the town manager. The Chief reports to him so that will shake things up a bit.

Yup go to the top compile all the evidence and get an official letter from a lawyer as well. Just to be sure I would send information to the town manager and his superior simultaneously.

Well I've worked with fire departments in my career.
They are like police, they will literally protect and cover up for each other.
You NEED to send certified letter to the fire department trustees.
If the fire department is part of the city (in some states they are not) then sent certified letter to The city council members and mayor.
That will get the city attorney involved and proper procedures will be followed.


Asking the Chief to take action may not be very fruitful

We had a session with our Pastors on Saturday morning. It was fruitful in the sense that I learned a lot more about WW's behavior over the last 20 years. Apparently she has this passive resisitance thing going on where she directly works against me in most things that I want. She also has this attitude that I can never be happy. She thinks that if she does what I want then I'll just want more. With this attitude, she just gives up before doing anything and we get nowhere.

We talked yesterday about how this passive-resistance thing makes me feel like she has been against me from the beginning. I asked her if she ever really loved me or wanted the best for me. It feels like I've been rowing uphill for so long and now I understand why.

She's in the middle of reading SAA but only reads when theres nothing else to do. Does that make sense? I kinda expected her to make the time to get thru it quickly. I still feel lie I'm dragging her through recovery.

Anyway, we have another meeting tonight @ 6:00.

Today also marks the end of the 2nd week since I asked the Fire Chief to meet/discipline his captain POSOM. No word back yet so I'm assuming that meeting hasn't happened. I am now going to the Town Manager to shake things up.

Well I've worked with fire departments in my career.
They are like police, they will literally protect and cover up for each other.
You NEED to send certified letter to the fire department trustees.
If the fire department is part of the city (in some states they are not) then sent certified letter to The city council members and mayor.
That will get the city attorney involved and proper procedures will be followed.


Asking the Chief to take action may not be very fruitful [/quote]


Wow you're doing well but I have to call you out on this after reading your last post. JK gave you the best advice to handle this matter. Get a lawyer to send the certified letter to the town manager and the FD trustees about this issue. You are doing a trickle exposure and allowing all POSOM allies to plug holes with the good ol' boy syndrome. Don't poke holes in the water ballon, blow it the hell up!

I am beginning to feel like I could get a degree in Psychology just from reading these boards. EVERYBODY seems to have some form of 'disorder' to explain their lack of boundaries, inability to tell the truth, etc.

Please recognize that this has NOTHING to do with the reason your wife had an A or with your ability to recover from said A.

It makes perfect sense. It means that she is not committed to recovery. It means that she still has no idea what kind of damage she has caused, and that she is not at all committed to making just compensation to you. I would watch her LIKE A HAWK, she is still very foggy.

Oh, I realise this completely. It is, however, part of the reason our marriage was in the condition it was in before the A.

I know unwritten ... after almost two years on these boards it is the same verbiage, the exact same script, just different actors. Still shocking at how you can predict their exact next move.

Waywards are so predictable .... me me me me me me me me me Blah!! Blah!! Blah!!

I feel like that too as well and only been active on these boards for 6 months. If WS would just look at other people affairs and see that what they are doing is inexcusable and their adulterous relationship isn't some special calling or God at work but a tawdry affair that happens over and over again with the same script. If society would punish adulterers with jail time America would be a better place as well. Adultery is more damaging than most crimes in the USA. I seen someone liken the pain equal or greater than a loss of a child. I agree and I am done ranting.

Actually, it wasn't her that brought it up. It was our Pastor. He's trying to find some of the root causes of the marital problems that we've had for so long. He's repeated several times that the A was her choice and not caused by anything else.

Question, If I go back to school for an psychology degree, can I get credit for life experience? If so, then by the time this is over, they could just hand me the degree.

I have a meeting with the Fire Chief today at 4:15.

How'd it go? Don't stop there either please follow my advice and JK's go to the top!

Let me un-babble your pastor's observation to MB terms; you two have not followed PoJA.

Learn to follow PoJA.

"Passive resistance" means "lack of enthusiastic agreement."


Go to the basic concepts, print out the article on PoJA.


Hand it to your wife.

The thing about these meetings is... It's a personnel matter now. We can't tell you anything other than he's been spoken to and we're dealing with it as a personnel matter. Go figure.

You know when your kids aren't being completely honest with you and you know it, but can't describe why you know it? Then, when they finally come clean, you "feel" the weight get lifted off of them. Well, I haven't felt that with WW yet and I have a suspicion that she has not been completely honest with me. I dont have the proof, just that gut feeling.

For example, my WW remembers everything. And I mean everything. She can tell you exactly when all of firsts were. First date, what we wore, where we ate, what songs we danced to. She remembers the date/time/place of our first kiss, the first night we spent together, hell, even the temperature it was when I proposed to her. When I ask her when the A started, sometime around early May. I'm like yeah, I need specifics and thats all I get. Then, when I confronted her about conversations with other men that were deleted from her phone, I get "I didnt want you to be mad" BS.

I got the book SAA and after 3 days she's read 24 pages. I mean, I couldn't put that thing down. I wanted to know everything that went wrong and what we had to do to fix it. I dont see much effort to get thru this from her. It feels like she's resisting me again because this is something that I want. She has today off so I'll see how she decides to spend it before I bring it up again. So far, she hasn't brought me a list of EPs either. If I put the list together, I'll just be trying to control her again. She has to do this to show me she's trying.

Met with my Pastor last night and worked through some issues that are keeping me from forgiving her. I need to get through that so I can think with a clear head. We made some really good progress and I feel really good today. I'm beginning to see her behavior more clearly and instead of getting mad I'm able to just deal with it, almost emotionless. Kind of like the drug addict that needs tough love.

HoldHerHand, thank you for the reminder. I will print the PoJA article and give it to her.

And yes, I'm going up the chain with the FD. I'm trying to find a lawyer that will help do this.

This is placating you so you go away.

This is old boy network protecting the OM.

This needs a work place exposure to all those above the Chief.

Also schedule a poly if you want honest answers and to keep her accountable. Post the the questions here for review.

This is called your GUT INSTINCT. Listen to it. TRUST it.

If I had listened to my gut instinct I would have saved myself a decade of lies. But I tried to rationalize myself through things, tell myself I needed PROOF, protect myself from the inevitable truth. Don't make the same mistake.

If your gut instinct is telling you she is lying to you, believe it.

I believe a polygraph was suggested. This is a tool many BS's have used to get the truth and start recovery with a fresh slate (including myself). You can usually get one done for around $400. Just the indication that you are planning to have your WS take one will likely get you a lot more information. I would highly, highly suggest it.

Here.
Polygraph Testing

This is a bad idea. She is still very foggy, and expecting her to make the right choices to protect your marriage at this point is going to fail.

This is not a list of things you are using to control her life. This a list of things you are requiring for YOU to stay married to a cheating spouse. For YOU to feel safe again. Remember, she needs to enter recovery understanding that YOU are going to create the parameters of the marriage that YOU will stay in, and she needs to decide if she is willing and able to give you that kind of a safe marriage.

Think of EP's as boundaries for yourself and your marriage, not as demands that are controlling her.

Are you familiar with what Dr Harley says about forgiveness?

I'm not completely aware of Dr Harley's view on forgiveness but here's mine. I believe that we need to forgive those that hurt us. I also believe that we need to do this before we can move forward because moving forward requires a clear head.

I DO NOT believe that this lets the person off the hook or provides for an environment where they can repeat their behavior. We cannot really move forward with all of the bitterness stored up inside and we can/do setup our partners with unwinable situations if we carry that stuff around.

For her to have a chance at meeting my EN, then I have to be willing to receive her efforts and encourage her. If I'm bitter and angry I will never do that.

Here's an article Dr. Harley wrote about forgiveness: Can't We Just Forgive & Forget?

What do you think about it?

You have the "tense" of forgiveness wrong.

You do not "award" forgiveness. WW must "earn" it.

"Earning" it requires full disclosure, (poly?), adequate safeguards (EPs), and adherence to a jointly committed plan of action (MB).

Other than that, you have the key point right. Until that forgiveness is in place (by being "earned", remember!) a couple will not have a relationship with a foundation to support better growth.

You want to be a "nice guy"! Please stop. Plan A is not based on being such a saint. It depends on the BS applying carrot when appropriate and stick when appropriate. A singular diet of carrot leads only to a fat, placid.....donkey!

IMO, forgiveness is a gift (not necessarily earned) but one that comes after repentance. Now, I believe repentance, in the case of an affair, comes from complete transparencey (honesty/confession of ones sins) and a changing of ones heart (turning from the direction of your sin to righteousness). If repentance is there, full disclosure, EPs and plan of action is in place. I think we're on the same page here. I'm not trying to be a nice guy... I'm trying to be a husband that forgives, even as Christ forgave me. His forgiveness depends on my repentance. Without it, its only permission to keep living the same life as before with a false sense of righteousness.

I'm trying to be a husband that forgives, even as Christ forgave me.

Yup, but, at least in my faith, the forgiveness of sins comes with the admonition of a demonstrated intention to change: Your sins are forgiven ye; go forth and sin no more! As in: I forgive you, WW, because you have been totally transparent about your prior infractions, and have established EPs to ensure you will sin no more!

And when Mehmet Ali Agca shot John Paul II, the Pontiff forgave him as Christ would have wanted - but even so, the bulletproof "Popemobile" was made mandatory for any future Papal excursions! EPs evidently extend even to the seat of Peter!

Exactly, repentance = go forth and sin no more

Exactly, repentance = go forth and sin no more

Shall we reopen here the theological debate as to whether the absolution spoken to a deceitful heart is of any value? Nah!

But....even the Church feels that the imposition of a "penance" is justified, as a condition of absolution. Penance = Truth, EP, JC.

Or would you maintain your ability to forgive exceeds that of His representatives? Or that your opinion of unconditional forgiveness is better-grounded than their penance-based model?

You have to understand wow that a lot of times when we hear "I am going to forgive" on here it is synonymous with brushing the A under the rug.

Your definition of forgiveness is irrelevant, as long as you understand that there must be a commitment to recovery, NC, full transparency, dedication to follow the EP's that YOU set as boundaries to your marriage, etc.

I don't think you have all of these things, therefore I feel like 'forgiveness' is a little bit premature. Don't you?

You currently have a WW who still sounds very foggy. You do not believe she is being honest with you, which means there could possibly still be contact and you do not have full transparency. It is clear that she does NOT have a commitment to recovery.

I would caution you about putting the cart before the horse here. Its like you are so excited to put this behind you that you are attempting to forgive an offense that is still being committed.

In reality, the words "I forgive you" sound noble and honorable, and they are.
What you must understand is those words are actually not necessary before a couple "moves forward", as you put it.

"I forgive you" does not mean any of the following:

I trust you.
I love you.
I feel loved by you.
I feel protected.
I no longer feel resentment.
I want a relationship with you.

Forgiving a debt means you no longer expect the debt to be paid.
Forgiving a wrong, or a hurt means you forfeit returning the wrong/hurt.

The important impediment you have to pay attention to during recovery after adultery is resentment, not a lack of forgiveness.

I wrote the following to a BW on a recovery thread.

NG, I'm not catholic so the only representative that I have is Jesus. I'm not sure where the Bible has a penance model. Jesus died for ME before I was born. My acceptance of that, vis-a-vie confession & repentance is all thats needed. For my wife also, yes?

UW, I can understand that thru posts on a forum, it can seem like I'm excited to put this behind me. Actually, in the beginning I was and admit to that. However, as you know, the process is not instantaneous. Yes, she is still foggy and has not committed to full recovery yet. She will NOT be let off the hook.

However, this question goes to the whole board. If she decides to part ways with me for any reason, is that cause not to forgive her A? At some point, this needs to be put behind me if I am going to have ANY healthy relationships in the future, including with my kids. If that is true, then how can forgiveness be tied to her performance?

More trickle truth last night. It looks like the A didn't start in May as was admitted to. The EA started Aug 2011 and the first kiss was Jan 2012 right after the fire dept. Christmas party. I dropped her off at the fire dept to pick up the duty vehicle and she saw him on the way home. Damn, I had just spent a great night with her at the party... I'm sure there's more and it will come out as time goes on.

I told her the trickle truth will kill our M more than the whole truth and nothing but the truth but she's still trying to protect herself.

After 4 days, she's only on page 41 of SAA. I told her I hit that within a couple of hours of getting the book. Anyway, I'm taking my oldest 2 DS skiing Thurs night & Friday in VT and she committed to do a lot of reading while I was gone. We'll see I guess.

I've exposed to my Manager in case he sees me on my phone a lot he'll know whats going on. He's been a great support over the last 2 days. He has a step D that is a heroin addict and has provided some good feedback on snooping etc.

Going away for the night leaving a foggy wayward alone is a bad idea.

She'll be with the Pastor's wife and D12

More trickle truth last night. It looks like the A didn't start in May as was admitted to...I'm sure there's more and it will come out as time goes on...I told her the trickle truth will kill our M more than the whole truth and nothing but the truth but she's still trying to protect herself.

Remember that full repentance you were so confident of, as least confident enough to award undeserved "forgiveness" on your still-foggy WW?

Do you begin to comprehend why your "Christ-like" plan will NOT work?

You are not Him. You have no insight to her mind and soul. Your (our) weak and inadequate senses can only judge her on external (overt) actions.

Well, it is entirely your life. If you chose to let her human frailties drag your recovery out for an extended period of pain and agony, you have that right. But I would point out that my brutally stern defogging of Bride took about 72 hours.

NG, my plan is to work through her repentance. If you remember my post, I said that her repentance would include complete honesty and confession. Yes, I believe forgiveness is a gift and will come only when she responds with the truth. How am I dragging out my recovery?

Also, where have I showed confidence in her full repentance? Undeserved forgiveness? really? When did I say that I would blindly forgive without the truth?

Wow, you should put your foot down now. She either gives you the whole truth now, or she leaves till she can get up the courage to do that. If she's lying about the past, she probably has no qualms about continued lying in the future.

When did I say that I would blindly forgive without the truth?

Let me spin the question: When did you say you had a plan to get the unimpeachable truth, and what was that plan?

Please note: Any answer not containing the word "polygraph" is inadmissable!

We talked about a polygraph last night. Her eyebrows went up which is one reason that I dont think I have the whole truth yet.

She's putting her EPs together while I'm gone (I want to see where her sincerity level is) and then I will add to the list as necessary for my own peace. She agreed to that.

She failed the eyebrow test. Great observation.

She also said, "you probably have GPS on my phone too...", I didnt say anything back. I just kinda stared.

My FWH used to shift his gaze to his left when he was not being completely truthful.

The trickle truth will just keep sucking you back into the black hole of despair. You need to get the truth Wow.

WOW!!!! $700 for a poly near me. I may be able to travel a little and get it down to $500. Not sure though... Still looking

I'm with NG if she can't tell the truth now don't bother wasting the money on a polygraph. I would kick her lying self out of the marital home till she is serious about this as you are. Thats the only way it works, I think your heart and soul will be torn apart because you are going into a FR (false recovery). As for the trip I would cancel it. She will be with people that will keep her accountable but you need to think whats more important skiing or your marriage.

Have you learned nothing here no more nights separated if recovery is your goal.

So you take a vacation and leave your WW home.

That is cheaper than a divorce and less painful than a death of a thousand cuts.

I have seen many BS just schedule the poly and inform the WS two days before the test. Give her a list of all the questions that you want to ask her and let her think that is what will be asked on the poly.

I think you can really only ask a few...don't tell WW that. Be sure to go through with it even when she starts singing. WW may only admit to enough to get you to back down.

Stop being so fearful of her diversions to paint you as controlling. Give her the list and give her two days to decide if she would like to prove herself.

Nerves of steel Wow.

What personal items could she put up on eBay to cover the $700?

She doesn't have much to seel but she is starting a 2nd job next week.

When I contacted a polygrapher for a consultation, it was my understanding that the "best" way to do an infidelity poly was to give Wayward a list of questions fairly soon before the test and ask them to answer them honestly for you. Then your main question on the poly would be "Did you answer all of the listed questions that Wow777 gave you with the absolute truth?" If there was one other question that you think is very important to you, you could include it on the test. The examiner told me 1 question makes the poly extremely accurate, but as you add more the accuracy can tend to go down.

Thats pretty much the same thing that I read on the polygrapher's website. I would think that the thought of a poly would cause someone to come clean on most stuff. Although, you never know

I would think that the thought of a poly would cause someone to come clean on most stuff.

Rational, clear-thinking folks - sure!
Arrogant, selfish, befogged waywards - not so much!

We had a WW here within the past year who decided to try to void the results by taking muscle relaxers!

Wow,

On Mothers day 2 years I got word of my wife's affair from her boyfriend's wife. I went nuts and asked for the extent of the relationship (sex wise). She went 24 hours and her friend convinced her to fully disclose the extent which, as I certainly expected due the sheer length of it, meant it was a lot heavier than it was 24 hours earlier.

I then went nuts. Even before MB, I demanded in very loud volume and under the threat of her belongings ending in the front yard for a full-on description of what went on. I wanted every dirty detail, every description of meals, movies, shopping, converstaions, blah, blah, blah, blah. It took maybe 3 days to get about as much I needed to move on. Sure, I got some more questions which I never expect to be answered, but I got what I needed mostly.

I swear once she unloaded on every excruciating detail and as embarassing as it was, she was relieved. Now certainly my wifes "relationship" ended with her guy a LONG TIME before her A ended for any number of moronic reasons, but once it got OUT and really was over, everything about her changed from her health, attitude, and even complexion and all for the better.

The truth will not only set you free, but more importantly perhaps, it will set her free.

MSS, this is what I keep telling her. The trickle truth will drag things on and cause more pain in the end. It also causes even more mistrust. I've come to see that WS see self protection as their main goal, at least at first. Hopfully, once the fog clears, they begin to see marriage protection as their main goal.

Mother's Day is also the day I chose to stop a lot of my lousy qualities. Naivete ended. Trust ended. Gullibility ended. And I took the opportunity to improve myself. I down 20 pounds since then, Ive worked on my own health.

But, most of all, I made if abundantly clear to the Mrs. that I, nay, SHE will be out the friggin' door so fast unless I see changes in the way she goes about life. She was to immediately seek a career in the field for which she was trained. Rather than be some flunky which was actually a front for an adulterous affair.

She was to discontinued wasting my time and that of our kids'.

The air of comfortability was removed. MSS is committed to this family but now under somewhat tenuous terms. The clock on her affair may have stopped on 5/9/11, but in MSS' world I have no time limit on anything. She chose to abuse the best thing that she'll ever get in return for nothing.

I have lots more time to get things as I deserve them.

This is the harsh reality THAT SHE CREATED. There are no threats, they were made in 2011. There are no continued outward or new demands, all I needed was laid out in 2011.

I expected a level of honesty that eluded her for many years. And a whole bunch of things to improve our marriage. These are not unreasonable expectations of a "formerly" adulterous spouse. In fact, 2 years later I have a woman who is still eager to meet my needs. And I hers.

Good to see you on other threads. The names change in affairs but as you have read the script stays the same. Any updates? Your wife ready earn that forgiveness and the (F)WW?

We had some breakthroughs over the weekend. We discussed the EPs and how important they are to ME and I think she's starting to understand. You wouldn't think it to be possible, but it has been difficult for me to get the point across to my pastor's wife that I am starting at zero trust. She has a hard time grasping that idea because she's never been at that point in her life. She thinks the "rules" of the EPs are a little much. After explaining where I am coming from, she's starting to understand more. Her husband, my Pastor, however, gets it completely and is in full support of the EPs.

After we got home from out meeting last night, she deleted her FB profile and is working on a list of people that need to be notified when she changes her phone #. I realize it's an inconvenience but its a small one compared to what we're dealing with.

She is dealing with a lot of shame and guilt. Does anyone have any suggestions on what I can do to support her through that? To me, this is a good sign that she is coming to grips with what she has done. She is praying through that and learning some things about herself in the process. I am also learning about some of my LBs that I'm guilty of and I've committed to stop those.

Most of what we are learning (or re-learning) is how to communicate with each other. There are a lifetime of mistakes that we are looking back on and trying to figure out how to avoid them going forward.

Have you seen this?

Recovery After an Affair

I did read that article right after D-Day. It was good to reread it today though. Thank you for the link.

WW is definitly in full withdrawal. I am starting to make as many deposits as I can and avoid the withdrawals. She's almost done with SAA and is feeling the pressure of having to do something (EPs, UA time, counselling, etc) but has been reluctant. It looks like she's starting to move on some of the EPs and I expressed how happy that made me for her to be willing to do whatever it takes to save the M. I am trying to deposit hope in her that we can have a better M. I hope to see some results of those deposits soon.

The one area that I have been trying to get WW to discuss with me for years is finances. I have asked, pleaded, begged her to work with me and set some common financial goals that we can work towards. I asked her what kind of things she wanted, what kind of future/retirement years she wanted, what she wanted to do with the house. I've tried to dig into every area I could think of and her response has always been, "I dont know" or "I dont like talking about this stuff". This weekend she tells me that she doesn't feel like I've treated her as an equal partner in the marriage. When I asked her what areas she doesn't feel like an equal partner....

Here it comes.... wait for it... wait for it.....

Yep, finances. WTF!!!

I practiced my listening skills and listened for 10 more minutes. When she was done (a pause of several minutes where others talked) I asked her how she couldn't have felt equal with all of my efforts to get her involved and she said I was controlling the conversation and that she wasn't finished yet. If I let her finish, she would make more sense....

2 days later, still waiting. Ugh. This plan A stuff is hard. My Giver is tired.

This is NOT Plan A:

When she was done (a pause of several minutes where others talked) I asked her how she couldn't have felt equal with all of my efforts to get her involved...

This would have been Plan A:

When she was done (a pause of several minutes where others talked) I told her how sorry I was that she felt that way, and would make it my task to help her get up to speed in this area...

It ain't easy, dude, but it's necessary to be consistently a fount of EN supply.

She's encouraging me to ask questions so that she can fill in any blanks. How can I be a fountain of EN supply if I don't know what I'm doing wrong?

Oh, for crying out loud!

DUDE! She's a wayward ! NONE of what she wants you to do is likely to be what you should be doing.

This is a perfect example. How did following her lead work out for you, huh?

She's encouraging me to ask questions so that she can entangle the whole situation in her selfish, self-justifying horse-crap.

I have a question. If WW is committing love busters, how do you tell them that they are hurting you.

What you just said (did) hurts me.

I would like it if you would......
I would like it if you wouldn't.....

Getting this book for both of you to read will help as well.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6030_love.html

Wow,

Could you post examples of these LBs? It's quite possible the answers will depend on WHAT she is doing to LB you. We could provide more exact responses for you.

For instance, if she is bad-mouthing you, calling you names. The best response I've heard given is you use the word OUCH and then you leave the room. It avoids the battle, let's them know you were hurt and that you are going to protect yourself from further harm by walking away. If they follow you and continue you give them a canned response. "I am more than happy to talk to you when you are calm and can be respectful. We can talk about this later when we both are ready to communicate that way.". Dr. Harley's Friends of Communication "Never communicate when you are angry.".

Be the lighthouse. End the madness.

Mr. alias, awesome post going to add that to my bag of canned responses! Wow, I agree you need to be more specific.

I guess because I have an unrelentingly ashamed, regretful, and ultimately sorrowful FWW who had zero withdrawal that I just cannot handle situations like yours.

Not more than 2 months ago your wife had what was going to be a child born of another man miraculously (FOR HER and you) unable to come to term. Did she forget that?? That day she not only ruined your marriage but almost that of a kid who in no way deserved such an existence???

I gave my wife but five freaking minutes to decide what she wanted, an animal with no class who bangs others' wives or me. I wouldnt tolerate any BS withdrawal, no sir, not after what I know took place under my nose. F-THAT. Sorry, but anything less than contrition and full-on adherence to making me whole would be met with a certain result that she knows full well.

Maybe my recovery is unique in this case? I dont believe that but perhaps it is.

WOW, I had but one thing that would have 100% derailed my recovery and that was if I found out she aborted or even lost a baby from OM. Not sure why I drew the line there, Im certainly no right-to-life person, but in my head allowing herself to get pregnant...I dont know, would be unforgivable. I dont think I ever wrote that in either of my threads at any time.

Youve been a model MB proponent as far I as I can tell and have endured much. And its still early on.

I understand how this program works with the "turn the other cheek" stuff when anger arise from the wayward, but at some point enough is enough.

Sometimes I think a WW wants a strong hand (not phsically EVER) but someone who rises to the level of the infraction and makes it known what the appropriate actions are for the recovery of the marriage.

Insulting or hurting or whatever she's doing to reduce Love Bank accts is not it.

Mike, I was trying to understand what you were suggesting (if anything).

I don�t think Dr Harley condones a "turn the other cheek" approach when it comes to LBs even in the case of being betrayed. Certainly what I suggested wasn�t a turning of the cheek but rather a method of changing the status quo to something healthier. If your spouse insults you, you could insult her back, you could just decide to end it (enough is enough) or you could find ways to change the M dynamic (WW or not). If WOW wants the M to work (which he does) then he�s going to have to learn some healthy M behaviors. Ones he probably doesn't have today. Not turn the other cheek but be the lighthouse to a better M.

You mentioned a strong hand. I can think of nothing stronger than a man being able to control his urge to fight back with anger or flee from the M (much easier than staying). To stand up and be the guy that is going to turn this M around and make it better than it ever was. That takes fortitude (x100 as a BS).

All that being said I myself wouldn�t be strong enough to stay. If I found out my W was cheating on me I�m quite certain I would just end it. Too much energy spent on someone who is just too broken to fix. Of course my M has/had been a struggle for a long time. I would expect her to do the same if the roles were reversed. Just my personal perspective on affairs.

I don�t know �. maybe I missed your point entirely and we are in agreement.

MB is not designed to trap anyone in a marriage that is not working.

To me, "turn the other cheek" implies an invitation to "hit me again" .... not the MB way.

Marriage at all costs?

We had another meeting with our pastors today. We discussed the LBs that she's been doing and she agreed to stop. The LBs were personal conversations with men that were not work related.

We agreed to schedule more UA time. At this point, the UA time has been sporadic because of long days and the 'need' for down time. We mostly watch TV after working out together and I suggested that watching TV doesn't count as UA time. Out pastor made some suggestions and we decided to follow them and schedule time to go out and focus on each other. Pastor also suggested that we start these dates by telling each other about the things that we think are going well.

One day at a time...

Have you read this?
The Critical Importance of Undivided Attention

BH, thanks for that link. I have read through most of that thread over the weekend. I've asked WW to read through it also. This is where we are concentrating most of our efforts this week.

WW talked to her sister about the A this weekend. Her sister tried to play the "it's not all your fault" card and WW cut her off. I was proud of her when she said, ahhh, yes, I chose the A and it has nothing to do with H". I'm thinking Sister may be a WW also... I do know that she has been in an unhappy M for 25 years. I also know that Sister is not am ally in this fight.

I also know that Sister is not am ally in this fight.

Well, maybe not an active ally, but there is value in her marriage being used as a contrast to your own, certainly...

I do know that she has been in an unhappy M for 25 years.

...to say nothing of the absurdity of a person with that baggage having the "ovaries" to offer marital advice!

Spending more UA time will be huge. Putting in boundaries like no convos with the OS will be very helpful too. I wouldn't really classify that as an LB though, it is an EP. That isn't something you should negotiate ... it should be non-negotiable. I'm sure her doing that damages your confidence in the marriage.

You mentioned her LBs. Would you mind listing some of the other LBs? It will be good for you to clear the air with her on these (PORH) and learn to negotiate to find alternate behaviors that are healthier for both of you (POJA).

MrA, I was classifying the breakage of the EPs as LBs. We are doing pretty good on LBs other than those. I've asked her to define her own set of life/marriage boundaries to get her thinking in that way. I want to meet all of her ENs, of which I consider these boundaries to be.

This weekend was good in the sense that we talked about my boundaries and that I was not intending to control or change her behavior, only identify the conditions that I was willing to live/stay married within. I was pretty gentle with her and she finally heard past the do this/do that filter that she often wears. To be honest though, I can now see the harshness that I've used towards her in my frustration. She interprets that as controlling and she's right. I'm much more conscious of that now and doing better according to her.

And, I can't remember the last time I had an AO. She probably can, but they are getting fewer and farther between.

Also, on a more personal note, no SF since D-Day yet but I had a vasectomy on Friday and she was happy about that. I'm still the one holding back on the SF. Still dealing with too many pictures in my head and hurt from the pregnancy.

Now, where did I put those frozen peas

If it helps I'd suggest (if you aren't) using I Would Love It If statements (Dr Chalmer�s advice to us). The intent is to express what would make you very happy without it sounding like a demand and removing any negative connotation.

�I would love it if we could find a healthy meal plan. I would love it if we followed "xxxx�.�
That sounds way better than.
�I hate how we eat.�
�The meals we eat aren't good.�
�We need to eat this way.�

I also think these IWLII statements are the perfect statement to opening up negotiation.
Her reply:
�I would like to eat better too but I do not like that eating plan. I need to have some carbs in my diet � etc�.
You:
�I totally understand. Do you have some ideas on what we could do instead of �xxxxx�? I�d be happy to sit down and research others with you .�. Brainstorm with abandon.


Here's to a speedy recovery.

Vasectomy aren't that bad. I never had one but did a couple lol. Your on the right track wow. Praying for a recovery of your marriage. Just remember we are human and we make mistakes, its what we do after the mistake(s). That's what really counts. Now if I can somehow get my WW to see that.

I had a realization while at church this past Sunday. I had a sense of peace and realized that I was not fully committed to the restoring of my marriage. This is hard to admit because I was holding onto the divorce lifeline, thinking that I could/would bolt at any moment if WW didn't show the right amount of committment to fixing this (whatever that might look like). Call it a revelation, an epiphany, moment of clarity or whatever you like. I knew, at that moment, that my marriage was doomed if I could not open myself up and let go of that lifeline and if that happened, it would no longer be WWs "fault" that it failed.

While in a moment of prayer, I was able to lower my guard and say "Lord, I welcome the changes that you want to make in me and in my marriage for this to succeed". That has been very freeing and for the first time since D-Day, not only do I think our M will be saved, I actually want it to be.

Our EP's are almost completely in place. Her Cell# will be changed tonight and the only thing left will be for her to see the Dr. I can actually see, for the first time, a place where I can put the A behind me, consider us to be on equal ground, and never mention the A again.

We have been doing really well in the Affection EN. We also have a date night planned for Friday night. Dinner and a lot of conversation

That's good news.

Church is a good thing. I'm glad you got over that hump.

Date night tonight. Going to the place we went on our first date on 6/26/1990. It was her 21st birthday. We haven't been back there in 20 years. She is very excited and so am I.

UA time is increasing too. We're consistently between 15-20 hours and working on scheduling more time. Her work schedule just got changed (added more hours) so she's been pretty tired in the evening. Our conversations have been gentler lately too.

There was an incident yesterday that we texted messaged about. Some guy that she works with was prying into why she changed email address, deleted facebook and changing phone #. She was getting tired of the prying and said she should just tell him why. I texted back that it was none of his business as this was personal. I might have came across harsh because of the speed at which I replied and the shortness of my reply so I called her to appologize if I came across harsh and she appreciated that. I explained that this was a boundary that she was willing to cross (having a personal conversation with opposite sex) and that concerned me. Anyway, it ended ok and we moved past it.

This is where the proverbial rubber meets the road IMO. The recovery is good until it isn't and then you have to deal with the issues. I'm not going to belabor the issue tonight but I'll find a way to talk about the recovery and get her feedback on how she thinks its going. Maybe.... That might be a LB on a date night. Never mind. I'll just focus on her ENs and tell her how pretty she looks

Thanks for listening

You handled it correctly in my opinion. If she understands why that was handled that way. Have fun on your date.

The past few days have been tough. Sometimes I dont know if I'm just supressing the pain or actually dealing with it. The last couple of nights have been full of dreams of POSOM and ways to get my justice in all of this. Waking up at 3:00 AM full of anger does not make the day go well.

A message for all of the BS's that are struggling with the decision to expose according to MB principals. DO IT!!!! For crying out loud, this could be your only form of justice in this lifetime to see the POS get what is coming to them. Short of putting them in the hospital, this could be your only way to make sure they can share some of your pain.

Its days like this that I'm not sure I can keep this up. I was betrayed and yet I'm the one that has to feel like $h!t every day. C'mon

How do I tell WW how this feels without major LBs???

We always tell people, "Recovery is a lot harder than you think it will be."

Now you know. Your "Taker" is trying to protect you.


Just a suggestion, write it down. Limit it to 2 paragraphs. Ask W to read it. Then, after she reads it, tell W you would like to hold each other until you are both relaxed. Don't talk about the contents of what you wrote, talk about how it feels to hold each other.

Tell your wife, "I need to be emotionally intimate with you. But, instead of telling you, I wrote it down. This is very hard. I need to hold you and have you hold me after you've read this."

Pep, then can I go beat the crap out of POSOM?

Ha!
I recently had a meltdown concerning a wayward contractor who has lied to us. When I was told the depth/cost of said contractor's incompetency/lying .... I was seriously considering self help with a baseball bat.

In the middle of one restless night, when I was chewing up this problem with leg twitches and gnashing of my teeth ... the IRS solution came to me. Tell me 777, who has a bigger bat? Pep or the IRS? We also came to learn that there may be a criminal element to his actions, and we will gather evidence and go have a chat with the city attorney.

In short, you can do more damage to POSOM, and less damage to yourself, if you are patient and watchful of opportunities.

Did OM BW ever believe you about the affair?

Does your WW feel the need to be honest with her own victim and clear your name as a psycho? That is what I, the BS, was concerned with. I knew I was truly on the road to recovery when my own FWH was ready to be honest with all of his victims (also his former bud).

P.S. Don't worry about revenge...OM will dig his own grave all by himself. You don't need to do anything to help him.

In 3 weeks my wife's dday will 2 years old. If my anger was a 10 on dday, its about a 5 today. Sure, I havent done MB as textbook as others. Maybe not enought UA. And, I havent made it easier on her to get me thru the low times. (Who wants to be close to an angry pit snake?)

Theres a poster on here who comes on infrequently but when he does, I read him. He, like I, were victims of LTAs. His anger is palpable but Im pretty certain he remained in the marriage as did I. I cannot speak for him nor do I know his story very well, but I believe since we both are with remorseful woman and children are involved, we stuck around. He is much more eloquent than I and has a better grasp of MB and is able to parse the words of WW on here into incriminating MB offenses. His anger towards the cheating wife is my anger and his defense of the victim husband makes me feel good. I wouldnt call his diatribes vintictive but they have a way of boosting my morale.

Some of the more religious folk on here point to scripture for help forgiving and lowing anger. I think thats for each to investigate.

I see you have been offering up suggestions and inspiration to others and thats a great way keep spirits up. Seeing other dudes going thru possibly worse situations tends to keep things in perspective.

I dont know what the solution to anger is. Is the seeking the person who created it and asking her to help you down from it the best way? It just may be.

I do know what is NOT the solution: bringing up the affair, passive agressive actions and words, silent treatments, curt and short responses, and threats of future anti-marriage actions.

All things Ive done and some fairly recent and the reason my anger average is at 5 when it should be at 1 or lower going into year 3.

PS. I see you've mentioned more than once the prospect of rearranging your wife's boyfriends face and kind of debated me against the notion on another's thread a few days back. Ups downs and general wishy washyness is a hallmark of what we face in this crap fest. When you find an even keel, perhaps youve recovered. Today, its choppy waters.

MSS,

Thanks for your insight. It is helpful for me. Yes, I debated you on the merits of face arrangement during one of my more even keeled days. It's been up and down quite a bit lately.

WW and I talked about it a little last night on our walk around the neighborhood. She asked if I was struggling with anything and I shared my stuff with her gently. She thanked me for being able to be open and honest with her without being accusational.

I like pokers response above. Hopfully, OM will bury himself through all of this.

The Lord said, "Vengance is mine" and I believe Him but we cry out for justice and sometimes have to wait for it. Sometimes, we may not even have it for years or maybe never, God forbid.

My heart aches for those who discover an A every day and hope that they find MB for the help that they need. I'm not sure where this will end up but I'm grateful for the support we all get here.

Have you ever cleaned up your diet and cleaned out your system so that the next time you eat junk food your body says, "Whoooaaa big fella, whatcha doin"?

Well, when you change your marital diet and clean out the marital system you tend to see red flags much easier. Your spirit jumps when the slightest change occurs.

GPS indicates something different than WW. We'll be having the discussion tonight

Where does the GPS indicate where she was?

Are you sure you should confront her? Maybe you need to gather more evidence?

I'm going to scope out the location on the way home tonight. It is way over on the other side of town, closer to POSOMs house than I'm comfortable with. I'n not sure if they have a place near there to meet. The GPS shows that she was there for at least 20 mins.

If I need to confront, it will be gently and with no accusations. But, we had a conversation last night and she said something that she's never said before. She said, "what if recovery doesn't work". I found it strange because she's never approached it like that before. When I saw the GPS data, a red flag went off.

Wow777,

Remember your WW has an ADDICTION that you are fighting, and from your description you are dealing with a "professional OM" who takes his OMing seriously. I would say OMs like that are more like pimps/control freaks in that they want to enslave their OWs mentally.

So there is a push and a pull going on simultaneously.

How effective were you at beating OM into the ground, getting him fired, exposed to everyone etc? What you want is for the OM to reject and spurn your WW.

That being said you might hold off and not reveal your snooping because waiting a week is nothing compared to finding out 10 or 20 years from now that she continued to be unfaithful.

God Bless
Gamma

Wow. Be smart. You really need to catch her there with OM. Otherwise she will come up with a logical excuse for why she was there and you will still be left with frustration, doubt and no solid evidence.

Your WW knows that you are watching her and she has already come up with an excuse that she can use on you...if you see that location on the GPS.

Check out the location because it may in fact be nothing.

Sometimes, when you get that gut feeling, it is better to shut up and ramp up the snooping until you can prove the continued contact.

Be smart. I wasn't and I really regret those mistakes I made.

I checked out the loc on my way home tonight and its pretty vague. I will hold off and keep monitoring closely. The last time she was at that loc was her last day off. She's off tomorrow so I'll see what happens then.

Thanks for talking me off that ledge poker. Its that initial flare up of anger when you suspect something that clouds the judgement. I appreciate the clear heads of others.

The excuse I hear the most is "I was testing you to see if you are watching me." And in fact that may be the truth...which is not a good sign.


I know all about that flare up of anger. I was literally insane. Be James Bond. No matter what happens...you always have to be like James Bond.

Now this is what I call nuclear exposure

The real definition of nuclear exposure

Have you seen this thread in other topics?

oooooops

Those are all great. The one I posted was from fox news today

Ok, so you didn't confront, correct?

You're going to keep on your snooping?

Did you ever hear back from the exposure to the fire chief?

No, I didn't confront her yet. I'm still snooping for now...

She has today off and is having breakfast with her Dad. I'm watching the GPS closely today to see where she goes after that. How does everyone go on like this for so long? Some of you have been in this mode for a year or more. This is killing me, literally. I've been up since 2:30 AM thinking about this. How do you function all day wondering if the ball is going to drop. Especially when your gut is telling you that something is up.

The Fire Chief fired him from the Explorer post so he's no longer leading kids there. He told me that if I have any evidence of further contact he would be let go from the fire dept too. This has moved into a personnel issue with the town so he can't tell me any more than that.

My plan, at this point, is to move into Plan B if there is still contact.

I checked out the loc on my way home tonight and its pretty vague.

Give us some idea, dude.

Parking lot, strip mall, public park?

With "Google" you probably didn't even need to go the in person to scope it out.

That was my plan also after DDay #2. But I sat on it for a few days and did some planing before I asked him to pack his bags and leave.

Are you prepared for a PLAN B? You want to do it right.

Make wise decisions based on facts. You don't know for sure that there is continued contact. Right now you are still in Plan A. Make it stellar.

It was a residential area which is why said it was pretty vague. Accordig to the GPS, she spent over a half hour there. I knew the general area and it's not where I would go for a meeting like this.

She's on her way home from breakfast with her Dad right now. She went "off course" and spent 20 minutes in a park that was not on the way home. I wish I was in town to see what was going on...

Poker, I'm not sure I'm prepared for Plan B. What I'm definitly not prepared for is more Plan A accompanied with lies and further contact. Does that mean I'm ready for Plan B? Probably not. I know my kids would be defastated.

How much does anyone tell the kids during Plan A? I want their home life to be peaceful but I dont want them to be caught off guard if it goes south.

That is fine if you are not ready for Plan B.

Continued contact needs to be exposed especially to OM BW.

Can you hire a PI?

That is exactly why I sat on it for a few days. I really struggled with it when I looked them in the eyes and thought about what it would do to them.

Make your kids feel secure.

Oh, believe me, if I find continued contact, I wont be hesitant to expose again. You might see a mushroom cloud over the northeast because this exposure WILL be nuclear.

I haven't looked into the whole PI thing yet. Not sure about the cost. We have been hit with thousands in medical costs already this year so funds are getting tight. I might take a couple of PTO days next week on her days off and follow her around with the camera. If that doesn't work, then I'll consider the PI.

I knew the general area and it's not where I would go for a meeting like this.

Interesting! Exactly where would you go, were you an OM wanting your "piece" to take the wrinkles out of it in twenty minutes or less? Maybe borrow a like-minded friend's house? (Friend could be co-worker, etc.)

You seriously need an injection of some "cynicism" extract, my friend.

There is little doubt she's giving it away again, so your Plan B study and preparation should be your second priority, just after getting those telephoto shots that pf found so helpful.

Do you have an IM? Have you begun composing your PBL? And as far as telling the kids - stop the dramatics, okay? Get the photos, have copies made and give them to each of them, suggesting they have WW and POSOM autograph them.

20Year where are you??? - Get this guy fired up!!

Floridaguy. I'm not sure that getting fired up actually worked in your own best interests.

Look, I am fired up all I need to be. I'm mad as hell because I'm consumed with this $h!7. She's sitting at home right now and I keep hitting the refresh button on the GPS coordinates to make sure I see anything strange as soon as it happens.

The hardest part for me is keeping a stellar Plan A going while I'm secretly tracking her every move. I swear, my life is turning out to be a friggin country song.

I can't listen to country music anymore.

You are doing great.

Hang in there Wow. I was right there a month ago. WW had no contact for 4 days and then BAM she texted OM. I lost my mind and called her, told her I wanted a divorce, then told her about the tracker on her phone. Huge tactical error I thought.

However; after speaking to Steve he said that giving up my obsession with the phone/gps tracker was healthy. In Plan A you always assume the A is ongoing. WW would only end the A if she chose me over POSOM. I could not have an effective Plan A while obsessing over her WW ways, causing Ao's and LB's.

-- not suggesting you give up your GPS but just saying I know how hard it is to Plan A while seeing continued contact.

The difference here Wow is that your wife is still at home and you believe that you are working towards recovery.

You build trust by snooping and verifying what WW is up to. If you find continued contact you can then make informed decisions based on FACTS from your snooping. It is how you protect yourself and is smart to snoop especially in the early days of recovery when an addict is struggling to break free.

Wow777,

The hardest part for me is keeping a stellar Plan A going while I'm secretly tracking her every move. I swear, my life is turning out to be a friggin country song.

Except that you are in a much better position than 99% of BHs who have no support of any kind, and no idea what moves to make. Your WW has a disease and it may take more then one round of shots to cure it.

God Bless
Gamma

It looks like her deviation was to show her dad something near her work. Her dad ended up going back to our house after breakfast so she could work on his laptop for him.

Sorry, dude, my bull-spit alarm is ringing loudly.

• A de-fogging WW does NOT get to have side-trips without telling you.
• "Daddy" might be alibiing for his little "baby".
• What about the trip to the suburban love-shack? Will Daddy be her alibi for that as well?

You should trust NOTHING that seems "off", and until you can feel recovery is complete, EVERYTHING should feel "off"!

Easy there NG, daddy is not alibiing her. It was the truth. Also, the very reason I'm here talking about this stuff is for support. I obviously don't have any trust left in me so I am trusting my gut this time. I'm watching closely without letting on that I'm concerned so I think I'll just be patient for a while and see where it goes.

Here.
Private Investigators

Wow777, I admire your level of commitment to your marriage considering how disturbing your WW case is. I really do and I think you are handling your situation very well.

I don't meant to intrude in your life but could you tell more about your wife as a person and circumstances that led her to the affair? What I am struggling to understand how a woman at her age would do something so foolish considering how much she had to lose by engaging in her EA/PA?

My D-day was just three days ago and I am not the same dude anymore after my wife confessed to her two-month long EA/PA. It just feels like someone has run away with a piece of my soul.... it literarly does. I have been always full of joy, optimistic person with a healthy dose of self-confidence but all that has been stolen from me. All I have left is just pain.

I will make my own thread in a few days but the pain is just too fresh for doing it right now. I guess I am just trying to read and make some sense of it.

Welcome opiel to MB and am very sorry for your pain.

Yes please start your own thread and you will get much wonderful support.

Wow, like many other BSs who have come to these boards, has drawn strength in the same way; by having a detailed plan in ending his wife's adultery, protecting his marriage from future adultery, and to restore romantic love in the marriage.



I would implore you to read through the basic concepts, and the infidelity articles in the Q&A section of this site, and post as soon as you can.

The faster you can get to work, the sooner you can begin recovery.

daddy is not alibiing her. It was the truth.

And the other deviation?

NG, I haven't gotten to the bottom of the other deviation yet. That's why I'm sitting patient right now. If she was with POSOM the , she'll do it again. Then I should have more evidence. If not, then a confrontation will only hurt plan A and put us back. I know, its not the way some would do it. That's OK though. Isn't this how trust is rebuilt? Through observation and careful confrontation, but only when the evidence suggests wrong doing? I don't have the evidence yet, only a hunch. Until I have some evidence, if in fact there was wrong doing, then I'll stay in plan A and keep building the trust and meeting the needs.

Evidence is best procured by pursuit.

You have the address of the residential neighborhood. In about twenty minutes, either using the county tax rolls, or a reverse-address-lookup database, you could have had all the names of folks residing in a four/five house radius. A quick scan of that might yield names of her coworkers, or his. It might even turn up his relatives.

I dunno; maybe it's me. I just NEVER got the point of "sitting patient"!

Opiel,

Like others have said, please start your own threan and tell us your story. From experience I can tell you, the rollercoaster ride has only just begun. You will experience more ups/downs over the next few months than you can imagine.

To answer your question, i.'ill give you some background us. I met her in a karate class that I visited prior to moving west for school. I had been in the martial arts for about 8 years at that point and, when I met her, she was a brown belt in this class. We hit it off right away but couldn't start a relationship because I was in my way to a year long school. When I got back, I was seeing someone and she was pretty disappointed. When that ended, W and I started having lunch and getting to know each other. Our first official date was on her 21st birthday and it was all special from that day on. We never really looked back on anything, only forward. We were both happy. We married almost 2 years later and have 3 sons.

Over the years things happen, and because you're so close to them you don't tend to see them. Well, she wouldn't share much by way of her feelings and I couldn't handle that very well. I began to try and drag her feelings out of her just to have my emotional need of openness/honesty met and she resented how I did that. Over time, we shared less and argued more. She developed a resistant streak in her that pushed back against almost everything that I tried to do that involved the two of us. That led to more resentment on my part and less ability for me to meet her needs. Then BANG, she starts having some bleeding issues and I take her to the ER. On the way there she tells me that she's having a miscarriage and the baby is not mine. Yeah, my world just fell apart. I was lucky to stumble onto the MB site while googling for answers.

Now, we are both "leaders" in our church in the sense that we lead small groups, prayer groups and I have even preached on occasion. It doesn't matter who or what you are, if you're not paying attention, it can happen to you.

I have asked the same question as you. How could she have risked so much? I have learned that that was not the right question to ask. The only question for me to ask, at this point, is, "How can I fix this"? Keep in mind that you don't have to fix this. You dont have to go any further. I don't know your story but, if you want out, nows the time to say so. You have every right to leave because her decision to have sex with another man is all on her. You are not responsible in ANY way shape or form.

I know your emotions are all over the place right now. Believe me, that decsion to stay or go, will happen on a daily basis. Maybe hourly for you. That's OK man. It's time for you to pull yourself out of the fog/anger/pain and make today's decision. Tomorrows will be there when you get there.

What's it gonna be? Tell us your story and you'll get all the support you need. Read the start here thread at the top and be quiet about being on MB until you can prove the affair is over. Your first job, right now, is to gather evidence, expose and snoop to make sure there is no longer any contact with the POSOM.

Wow,777,

My story is bad, I just made a thread about it, but it isn't nowhere close to yours. I really admire your stranght but I don't think I could the same being in you situation.... please don't take it in any wrong way.

Anyway, I don't know what to do about my own situation. I would just like to fall a sleep and never wake up.

Everywhere I turn lately there is one trigger after another. Every movie, tv show, sermon have something to do with adultry. How can someone begin to heal when its thrown back in your face at every turn?

Everytime WW comes home from work and I hear about her day, the only thing I really hear is the names of the men she comes in contact with. Paramedic so and so, officer so and so, coworker so and so. She works with and talks about the women too but I only "hear" about the men.

I was up all last night unable to shut my brain off. The pain and resentment are growing, not diminishing like I thought they would. I'm going to read the articles on resentment today. Can somebody post a link for me so I dont have to go searching? I'm at work and will have to read them a little at a time and I dont want to spend too much time searching for them. Thanks

I'm starting to think my pastor's wife is more subjective than objective in our counselling sessions. She tried to negotiate my EPs down to be more comfortable for WW during our last session. I said non-negotiable and changed the subject. Gonna have to watch that one.

On the positive side, WW and I are spending a lot of time together and we're talking a lot. I've committed to keeping the discussions about relationship problems to the counselling sessions to make sure that we keep the UA a safe environment where neither of us shuts down. It seems to be working but she knows I'm fighting the triggers. Should I tell her about every trigger?

One of the things that has been brought up in counselling is the notion that I will never be satisfied, regardless of what she does. Like with the EPs, she's concerned that I will just keep adding to them to try and control her. Even though I've told her that I have no interest in controlling her it still keeps coming up.

Opiel, I know what you mean about falling asleep and not waking up. I just want to fall asleep and stay asleep for 6 straight hours without waking up with this on my mind.

I couldn't imagine being in your shoes...God bless you brother! I just updated Pep's resentment thread in the recovery forum. I was enlighting to me.

Here you go.
Resentment Type A and Type B
Using Resentment as a Form of Punishment

OK, here come the dreams!!! Now, I can't even get away from the A when I sleep. I'm now dreaming of them together. REALLY??? Has this happened to anyone else? I haven't told WW about the dreams because I dont want to keep throwing the A back up at her.

Is there a checklist anywhere of what people go through with this stuff? When my MIL died, the nurse gave us a list of what to expect during the last 12-24 hours. As things progressed we knew she was close and we made sure eveeryone was there. That list was pretty accurate let me tell you.

I know we go through the grieving process but can anyone tell me that roughly at 3 months you get dreams, 4months anger, 5 months peace.... SOMETHING PLEASE

Yes. Dreams may come and go for the next year.
They do not get worse over time.

Timeline?
Expect a surge of anger/resentment somewhere around 6-8 months after the A has stopped.

Had a long conversation with W last night regarding the Giver, Taker and past behaviors from both of us. I'm in the middle of reading Love Busters and Dr. H's description of abuse is interesting. You (I) have to read that over several times before it sinks in that we've been abusive to each other for 20 years.

It started off with small stuff, I was in school full time and working a PT job and she worked 1 FT job and 1 PT job to help make ends meet until I graduated. During this time, neither of us wanted to clean the bathroom. Go figure. Instead of working that out, it morphed into a once a month angry cleaning where one of us would cave in and just clean it. Everything else was nice-nice so we let that slide and look where we are today...

Everyone tells you that communication is the most important thing in a marriage, but nobody tells you what needs to be communicated or how to do it (except Dr H so far). Love Busters and HNHN should be required reading in every pre-marital counselling effort.

We both realized last night that this has been going on so long that neither of us wants to be the one to put his/her Taker to rest and meet the others needs without expectations because we dont want to keep getting hurt. We're both afraid that the other wont join in and meet our needs.

It's not at a stalemate yet, we are afterall taking openly about this for the first time. It's a matter of giving a little and waiting to see what the other will do. Is this normal?

Also, I had a bit of a revelation last night. Over the years, I have told her specific things that I needed. Like, I needed to know that I was the most important man in her life (she has father issues like most of us). I was so explicit with her that I only needed to hear her say those words to me once in a while. She's never really said it though. Last night, when we were talking about our needs, I told her how overwhelmed I felt at all of the work that needed to be done to get the house ready to sell. I was overwhelmed because I felt as though I would be doing all of the work without any help from her (looking back at it, this may have been a DJ but this has happened on EVERY other project that I have done so I have reason to believe this). I told her that, what I needed most was, her reassurance that she was there with me to help with everything. Again, she wouldn't say it. When i asked why she counldn't reassure me, she didn't have an answer.

Later, when I was almost asleep, she said that she realizes the she was more important to her than I was and that was why she couldn't say those things. We talked about her Taker having total control over her and she said she'd think about that.

Oh yeah, we had sex the other night for the first time since D-Day. Very difficult for me with all of the images of her and POSOM going through my head. Not sure how often I can do that yet...

Make love with your eyes wide open and 100% of the time focused on her face. Do not look away. Do not close your eyes. Psst ....Tell her ahead of time that you are going to try this so she does not think you have gone coo-coo. What will happen is that you will have an intense emotional response to your wife, not to your inner thoughts. An intense EMOTIONAL response to her .... get it?

Ask your wife to do this with you.


You can thank me later.

How are they doing?

Pep,

DS19 asked me the other day how I was doing. Thats pretty big because he's the most distant with me. We talked for a short while and he asked if I should talk to our pastor about the dreams, images etc. He also asked about medication for any depression. I told him that I dont think meds are the right way to go yet and that I am talking to the pastor about it.

DS17 and I are restoring his 87 Jeep Wrangler. The frame rails are rotted and we're cuttint them out to weld in a new repair kit. He's learning a ton and we're having a great time working together. His grades are up (made the honor roll) and he's excited about Prom in May and graduation in June.

DS12 just had surgery on his leg that he broke skiing last Dec. They removed the hardware and he's healing very nicely. His grades are back up after a short difficult period in school.

Overall, they are doing well. I dont want to fool them into thinking everything is like new again but I dont want to dwell on the pain either. I'm not sure how often they should be told of our progress...

They witness the progress.
You can't fool them.
You and their mother are writing their family history as they watch/listen/sense.

Sounds like you're making progress. I agree with you about the abuse definition by Dr. H. It's an eye opener. Hopefully you make a full recovery

Still dealing with the very short nights. I've been up at 3:00-4:00 am most nights. very tired...

In a few days it will be 4 months from D-Day. We are definitly talking more openly and honestly and I actually heard an "I'm proud of you..." this weekend. The only thing is it had almost no impact on me. It was for something really small (in my view) and seemed fake. I could have used it over the years with some of the really big things that I've done but whatever...

Finances are getting better. D-Day +1 I went to the bank and separated everything. In out counselling sessions she has had conflicting arguements over finances. At one point she said that she just wants to be told what the budget is and doesn't want to be part of the budget decision making and later she said that she doesn't feel like she's treated as an equal partner when it comes to finances. LOL, I decided to pay attention to the first one and set up a budget on my own. I gave her certain bills to pay and left her with about $200/month to save (she's never been a saver). With all of that, I have been able to put a large chunk of money away to finish getting the house ready to sell and pay off other existing debt.

I realize that this is a marathon and not a sprint. I read thru my entire thread this morning and laughed a little at my attempts to do things my own way. Anyone reading this should take heed and listen to the vets explicitly. Things could have gone a bit easier on me if I had done that.

Lastly, I was hoping that I would start to feel some of the spark returning by now. While we're both trying to meet each others needs, I feel almost nothing emotionally toward her. I'm hoping the feelings of romantic love start to return but in the midst of the dreams and waking up so early I'm not so sure.

I did that as well. It's funny how you read through your own post and see how much you have changed. My attempts were downright silly. Keep it up Wow. Remember things like triggers and romantic take time. They say it will be fake at first but will become mor natural again with time. Rooting for your marital recovery from the sidelines! Are you both getting 15-20 hours of UA time in?

We have a lot of time together but it isn't all UA. Not much TV lately but family stuff, church stuff, etc.

When I was just starting to recover, it was without MB. I had to blaze my own trail and make numerous mistakes.

Aren't you the lucky dog? You know about the "love bank". Applying Dr. H's love bank concept, I imagine you are allowing only certain coins to enter your love bank. You are a lot like I was - back in the day. Analytical to the point of doing a thorough inspection of every love deposit, making sure it is legitimate and not a counterfeit.
You inspect every last red cent.

Early recovery is very slow-going with a decidedly analytical BS. You are not going to let just any old love deposit go into your bank. I get it. Recently (in real life) I've had the occasion to make some rather large deposits into our savings account. The bank puts a substantial "hold" on the money, releasing the funds a little at a time. That's you, The Bank of Wow777.

Hang in there 777. Allowing love bank deposits will make your journey less arduous than mine.

You both need to set down and set up UA time. I'm no expert and you are in actual recovery and I'm not. Reading the forum threads and the main theme is UA, UA, UA.

A bunch of non-UA time will not make up for a lack of UA time. You can't trade 2 UA hours for 4 or 10 FC hours.

To really feel the spark again, you've got to shake things up and start dating, frequently. Move heaven and earth to make this happen.

(I second Pep's comment about being analytical with each love bank deposit. It does take time.)

I have a suggestion:

Since it sounds like both of you are motivated to work on your marriage, sit down together every evening and listen to an hour of Marriage Builders radio together.

If you find it enjoyable, I believe you can count it as UA time (I don't know if Dr. Harley would agree with this or not, but in the past it has definitely been UA time for us!) Plus, it will be like having constant feedback and training from Dr. Harley. You will hear him harp on some things that are very important. You will be repeatedly exposed to a lot of the changed ideas that you need in order to make a marriage work.

And put everything else on the back burner until it happens.
UA is key. And not just a little here, and a little there.

How many hours of UA are you getting each week? You should know. If you don't, start now and track it. It's essential that you get the hours in. There's a big difference between 12 hours a week, 15 hours a week, and 25 hours a week. A BIG difference.

Other commitments can wait until you've got this one figured out.

We are getting around 3 hours a day on average. The last week or so has been a little less because of some other stuff popping up.

For instance, my son and I love to work on cars together. he bought a 1987 Jeep Wrangler that needs quite a bit of work and we've been heads down on some stuff that was keeping it off the road. We spent the last few days cutting rotted frame rails out and welding new ones in. He learned a lot and we got a lot closer through it.

It turns out, my wife came out just to hang out with us for a while (not UA time again but still good). She mentioned later that she loved seeing us working together and told me, again, how proud she was of us getting that done. I made sure to tell her this morning how much it meant to me that she was proud of me because one of her EN's is hearing about the stuff thats going well, not just the stuff that needs work.

Sunday after church is usually a day that we reserve for us/family. This past Sunday we had a community meal after the service. Even though we were together, it wasn't really UA time. It did allow us to serve others together again, which we have missed since leaving the fire dept. We both love to do that and I have had some resentment towards her for making us have to stop doing that. This helped fill that void some too.

So, even though we haven't had the full 20-25 hours this past week, we've still been making some good LB deposits in the non-UA time.

Correction, Sunday should be for family time, church and you and your wife scheduling your UA time using the POJA. The allure of the affair especially when kids are involved IMO is the UA time. Waywards have free childcare using the BS you need to show her that you can have alone time and a family as well. You need to show her you care about meeting that need for UA IC and recreation with just her. Show her that her affair wasn't reality and she can have the best of both worlds. This should be a team thing as you both want the marriage. Don't know if this was asked but would she be willing to post? I'm sure some FWW could be an immense help to her. Oh, if she does do not read her threads.

I've encouraged her to come here and read/post. I cant control her participation in the recovery any more than I can control her openness & honesty. She hasn't told me wheter she reads or not and she hasn't posted yet. Maybe she'll read this and be encouraged :-)

Why are you not taking your wife out on dates? You are making 1% deposits with what you are doing. They help, but recovery is going to be stalled. You'll get that spark back in 100 weeks instead of a few weeks. If you can hold out that long.

We have 2 dates planned for this weekend. Now that our son's Jeep is back on the road we'll have more time together.

What are you doing for those 3 hours a day of UA?

The examples you gave were good INSURANCE for a recovered marriage. The lovebank deposits they make are relatively small compared to the Intimate Emotional Needs met during UA. Don't make the mistake that some people do of thinking that the lovebank deposits made outside of UA can substitute for UA. If you don't get the UA hours, your marriage suffers regardless of any other lovebank deposits you have made that week.

Protect your UA time with vengeance.

Oh, okay! Good! A lot of people try to skimp on UA time and then wonder why the program doesn't work.

By the way, it sounds like you made some Family Commitment love bank deposits. Dr. Harley recommends scheduling 15 hours there, as well.

We fully understand the need for UA time. Sometimes, life gets in the way as many know.

Family time with DS12 is pretty easy but we have a DS19 & DS17/almost 18 so getting time with them is tough. They work, girl friends, school, etc so we do what we can when we can.

UA time consists of walks at the park, working out at home, playing cards (& talking), reading HNHN & Love Busters and discussing them together. We also grocery shop together every week which is something we never did. She always did it alone during her day off but now we do it together. It helps her and it keeps us within our budget. A win-win for both of us.

Pulling this back here from RQ's thread....

How/why can she change her behaviors if she cannot recognize them as part of the problem?

She will change her behaviors when changing them is less painful than whatever sanction you commit (and convince her) to applying should she continue them.

That is what snapped Bride out of her fantasy: "If you ever do this..., or this..., or that..., there will no longer be a marriage to work on."

What is not prohibited, is encouraged! (Wow, used that twice in one week!)

Thats basically the way our conversation ended up last night. I told her that continuing to do this was crossing my boundaries and I was not going to live that way.

Wow, I'm writing this post to you, on your thread, because I think I see one of the obstacles that is preventing the spark of love from returning to you and your wife. When the spark hasn't returned, you have to do two things:

* get objective help to make sure you are doing everything right
* keep doing the right thing longer

One of my absolute biggest mistakes was thinking that I was following this plan correctly and wondering why it was not working and why my wife was not onboard. The truth was I was making a lot of mistakes I could not see until I got more experienced help to explain it to me.

Let me put a couple of things together for you, because I'm worried you are making a mistake you do not see (and it happens to be one of the same mistakes I made):

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2723475#Post2723475


http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2723876#Post2723876


I've left my wife's analysis there verbatim for you. All of these things you are saying are disrespectful to your wife. They roll off of your tongue incredibly easily, showing that you probably have a real habit of being disrespectful to her.

Believe it or not, disrespect is a part of the spectrum of abuse and control, as described by Dr. Harley.

With this constant pressuring on your wife to accept your advice, going so far as to judge her of "independent behavior" for simply having a different perspective about whether or not to accept your advice, it's going to be impossible for big love bank deposits to be made. It's like filling a tank with holes in it. Her love bank will make her want to avoid you, rather than wanting to spend time with you and care for you.

She may not even understand why, and she may not even be able to tell you. Both of you may just conclude the program doesn't work; you tried your best, didn't get the spark, and are just stuck with life as it is. In fact she may become very averse to the program if you continue to misuse Marriage Builders phrases like "Independent Behavior" to refer to her doing something that Marriage Builders advocates: not giving in to demands and disrespect.

Marcos

I'm reposting this here so I dont keep Hijacking RQ thread

I dont know if I'm like Tom in that story. I hope not. Are you guys saying that I should never offer her help? I dont do this on everything. This isn't a daily thing where I feel like she needs my help on everything. This job was important to her and I saw that she was struggling with how to get the info she needed so I offered some suggestions. She does a lot on her own and should have more confidence (her words not mine) but doesnt when it comes to this kind of stuff.

For instance, She has a black belt in karate, she is an EMT and firefighter, she has had 3 kids and is a GREAT mom, she is good at helping others get organized, she is great in bed. We used to run a karate school before our kids were born and she always taught the throwing techniques because she's way better at that than I am. She doesn't like to fight so I always taught that part. Did I mention that she is great in bed?

What she doesn't have is much experience in the corporate world and struggles with confidence when she has to deal with corporate folks. That is why I offered my help with this, because I work in the corporate world and do this stuff everyday.

I don't offer this kind of help all the time because she's so good at most things. However, whenever I do offer it, it gets disregarded... When this happens, the result is usually the same as this time. In hindsight, when we look back, it would have worked out much better if she had considered what I had offered. Thats why I consider it to be an IB and not a DJ.

If 2 people have to let each other "just figure it out on their own" aren't we just encouraging IB? Is just listening all the support I can/should give? I'm struggling with this.

The key difference between a request and a demand

is how you react when you receive "no" for an answer.

How do you react when your wife doesn't take one of your suggestions? This is how you react:


You resent that she didn't take your suggestions. It hurts you for her to decline. You don't put out suggestions that she can take or leave - you harbor resentment over her not doing things your way.

This is our key, as observers, that you are being disrespectful to her.

Take it from me - this is the same way I used to hurt Prisca.

What you offered was not merely suggestions because you became very upset that she did not do what you told her to do. That makes it a DJ and very likely a demand, as well. If you only offered suggestions and help, you would not feel so upset when she chose not to do it your way.

This was a major DJ/demand on your part.

It is not IB for her to not give in to that.

But... I didn't become openly upset with her over this. I never said to HER that I resented it. I just let it go as I have done in the past. The fact that she didn't do it my way was not the big deal to me. What is the big deal is that she has literally never given any of my suggestions any weight. They have always been summarily ignored. I know that sounds like a DJ because I used the word never, but it has actually NEVER been different.

If someone said to you that you should take a different route home tonight because traffic is backed up for 10 miles and they ignored you, would you care that they were stuck in traffic for hours. If they ignored you the next time you told them the same thing, then what? What if you were in the habit of checking the traffic before leaving work and they never gave your suggestion ANY weight and just ignored you. Now, what if this person that was ignoring you was your wife and you had to wait for her several hours to get home everytime this happened. Would it be a DJ on your part or an IB on her part. What if your advice was simply to listen to the traffic report before leaving and she ignored that too? DJ or IB? Would you feel as though she was just ignoring you for some other reason?

Thats where I am. I was very gentle with her in this conversation and NEVER accused her of anything nor did I tell her what to do. I vented a little here and maybe that came across as the way I was treating her. It's not. I still dont see this as a major demand.

Does this person have any valid reason for not wanting to drive home the way you suggest?
Careful.
Tricky question.

Your way is not inherently right, even if it seems right to you. There is another perspective here. And it's just as valid as yours.

What about if your spouse doesn't wear her seat belt? And this concerns you because of the law, and because of her safety. You've asked and asked her to wear it, but she still doesn't. Is she ignoring you? Or are you going about it wrong? Dr. Harley talks about how to handle this situation. It's called Respectful Persuasion.

If you are thinking this way about her, it will show eventually in the way you treat her, even if you think it won't. She'll see it. And it will hinder your progress.

You did tell her what to do. You made it look like a suggestion, but because you became upset that she didn't do it your way shows us that you were making a demand.

Anytime your spouse cannot say no to your suggestion, you are making a demand. If it upsets you that she didn't do it your way, it's a demand.

I suggest you reread the chapter in Lovebusters about DJs and Demands, especially the part on Respectful Persuasion. You'll see the seatbelt example in there.

What's wrong with that?

Now that I have been through Marriage Builders, I would recognize that it is their decision to make, not mine.


I'd put down "being late" on our annoying habits worksheet and prioritize it among other annoying habits. Prisca would decide how to avoid being late, whether that meant taking a different route or leaving sooner or asking someone for advice.

But you DO resent it. You resent it because she didn't do things the way you told her to. That resentment will eat away at your marriage.

Here's what Dr. Harley told me about such situations:


Your wife has the right to decline your suggestions! If you care about her, you need to make it "no big deal" for her to decline. Whether she considers 1% of your suggestions, 100%, or 0%, that is her choice to make, and if she doesn't feel free to make it, she's going to feel TRAPPED with you, not IN LOVE with you.

Prisca will not do anything, even if it's in my best interest, if it feels like a demand.

It sounds to me like you are under the same illusion I was: that if your wife really cared about you, she would give more consideration to your ideas.

What if you asked them why they didn't go a different way and they just said "I dont know". I hear that a lot. Now, if you knew for a fact that they knew at least 1 or 2 other ways to go but didn't use them? How long would it take before you started taking it personally? A year, 2, 20?

You said that there's another perspective here thats just as valid as mine. I dont disagree but I would like you to make the arguement and convince me... I'm not trying to be a smart a$$, I really want to hear how you would approach it.

We're not talking about extreme cases here. I use the traffic example because it's simple to understand yet difficult to comprehend why your spouse would risk getting home hours late. Maybe they want to get home hours late? Again, another problem masked as ignoring you.

My way is not inherently right. You are correct. Sort of. Every basic time management program available today suggests that having a to-do list makes you more efficient and helps keep you from missing/forgetting important things. In our most recent example of her job, I suggested a basic list of things that she said she needed so she wouldn't miss anything. Is there another way? Maybe, but even if there was, she didn't use it. She did nothing and got none of the information that she needed. The next day (yesterday) she sent an email to her boss with the exact list that she should have had at the board meeting. It took an additional 24 hours for her to get the answers that she needed. Yes, this "other way" worked but only after she killed an entire evening and all of our UA time getting nothing that she needed. In the end, she used the list that I suggested and it worked. She just implemented the solution her own way.

I would have been OK with her emailing the list off to her boss ahead of time so the board meeting would have been more productive. My problem is that by ignoring my suggestion it made me feel that it meant nothing to her. Ignore me once, no problem. Twice, who cares... Everytime? Somewhere I'm gonna start wondering why.

Tell me more about this Respectful Persuasion. Is there some info on the website or is it in one of Dr. H's books?

It's in Love Busters, at least in the recent editions. There's an amazing example about wearing seat belts. Whoever would've thought that was up for negotiation, right?

marcos, I'm reading LB now. I guess I'm not to that part yet. Thanks

Here's what I may be able to convince you of, if you'll just answer this question:


Why isn't that okay? Isn't it all right for her to do it 24 hours later? Why do you feel it has to be done perfectly? Why isn't it okay to wait?

If your answer is "because she risks losing her job," what's wrong with that? What's wrong with taking that risk?

What's wrong with not doing everything optimally in life, and then taking the consequences of not doing it optimally?

marcos, the answer is that it's fine to wait another 24 hours. In fact, she had been waiting for this board meeting for over a week so it wasn't like it had to be done right away. The problem isn't that she didn't do it my way. The problem is that not doing it at all caused her to waste the entire evening. In our current state, that loss of UA time was tough. Losing it because she wasn't prepared and could have been seemed to make it worse. The fact that she had a week to prepare and didn't is why I offered the suggestion of having the list to go into the meeting with.

Also, there wasn't any issue with her losing her job. She asked if I would be mad if she didn't take on the additional responsibility and I told her that it didn't matter to me. If she wanted to do it I would support her 100%. If she didn't then that was ok too.

I have no skin in that decision so it was totally hers to make. I would support it either way. Her job as an EMT would not be jepordized if she didn't take on the extra.

By the way, the extra work was doing all of the billing for the company. She has medical billing experience so we thought it would be a good fit as long as the company didn't abuse her in the process (like expecting her to work long hours at night, weekends, etc.). We POJA'd the things that would cause her to walk away from it so that wasn't an issue.

I would mark that down as either Dishonesty or Lack of Openness and Honesty - neglecting an emotional need. I know in our case, I would often respond that way to Markos. I wasn't being Open and Honest with him when he would ask such questions. The reason was because he was a Disrespectful, Demanding Jerk. And by being Disrespectful and Demanding on a regular basis, he discouraged Honesty. I simply did not want to get into it with him.

Why would you take what route was driven home personally? Why is your way so much better than hers? Because she won't be late?

What reasons does she have for not wanting to drive home your way? Do you know? Are they valid?

If it annoys you for her to be late, mark down as an annoying habit as Markos said. You still don't get to demand she drive home your way. You do not fix Annoying Habits with Demands.

Her perspective is just as valid as yours. Why?

Assuming she just wants to get home late is also a DJ.
I can think of several reasons why a person would choose a route that would get them home later.

When we lived in DFW, I would often choose to take a longer route because the freeway scared this country girl to death.

I have also often chosen NOT to do something a certain way simply because Markos demanded I do it that way.

Maybe she simply likes the scenery better.

Whatever the reason, you do not need to comprehend it in order for it to be valid.

That still doesn't make your way inherently right Maybe more efficient, but not inherently right. She is not wrong if she chooses to be inefficient. Maybe that annoys you, but again, you do not fix Annoying Habits with Demands.

So?

Here's the real problem. YOU sacrificed UA, and you were willing to do that as long as she did what you wanted her to do. But, since she didn't do it the way you wanted, you're now pissed off that you missed UA.

YOU shouldn't have sacrificed UA. The fact that she was inefficient has nothing to do with that.

Maybe she doesn't like being told what to do?

Why would you sacrifice your UA for a meeting when what she needed could've been done 24 hours later?

She didn't need efficiency. The two of you needed UA. And you're upset that your sacrificed UA was "wasted."

UA should never be sacrificed. You were willing to, and you set yourself up for this resentment.

I'm not sure why I'm coming across as demanding anything. Like I said, do it my way or do it some other way it really doesn't matter to me. In this case, I was willing to sacrifice the UA time and yes, I realize that was bad. It felt like she didn't place the same value on that sacrifice as I did because she went unprepared. I guess thats why I was offended.

To answer your question about why take it personally if she takes a different route home than I suggested... She hates driving in traffic and yet she chose to instead of going a different route. Everytime it was suggested. And the fact that she "didn't know why" was annoying. Again, I never demanded anything. Your reasons for taking a different route home that would make them later were great. I noticed you didn't mention that you just enjoyed driving in DFW traffic. Would you have taken the heavy traffic route if you hated driving in traffic when you knew there was an alternate route that would get you home quicker? Are you stuck on the fact that you think I'm demanding something? Really, all I want is to be a part of her life and for her to be open & honest with me. That was my #2 EN and for some reason she can't seem to be open with me.

I'm generally a fix-it kinda guy. I've learned over the years that I can't/shouldn't try to fix everything. <sarcasm>would the world be a better place if I was president? Of course</sarcasm>. I've given up on trying to fix most things and resolve to only offer suggestions when I think it might help. I do it with my kids too. gernerally, they make their own decisions and I consider it to be my job as their dad to make sure they have all of the information that they need to make a good decision. It's hard when they make a different decision than you would but I let them run with it and stand-by if/when they need me.

When it's your wife that never considers your input, thats a little different. Again, I dont generally care what you decide. It's the complete avoidance of my opinion that bothers me.

She was told by her boss that she had to go to this board meeting to get introduced and get her answers because the boss couldn't give them to her. It's a weird situation because the president just quit, short notice, and the board took over day-to-day operations.

You are correct. I set myself up for this resentment by sacrificing the UA time. And yes, I feel like the sacrifice was wasted.

Don't mean to throw a wrench in the works, and perhaps she is on the phone with you the whole time.

Have you thought that she may not necessarily be stuck in traffic during those two hours she takes to get home? That she could be using them as unaccountable time to do whatever?

Well, this is really elementary Marriage Builders stuff, actually. But if you don't want our help and advice to help you understand why it was demanding and disrespectful, you are free to decline it, and we can take our help elsewhere.

On the other hand, if you'd like the experience of someone who's been through times with a wife who was not on board, and what needs to be done to turn that around, this information we are giving you might prove to be very helpful.

Take my word for it, friend: you are describing demanding and disrespectful behavior on your part.


Like it or not, fair or not, you have to earn that. What you are doing is demanding that she include you.

Markos, excellent suggestion! I have to believe that this would be a great use of UA time!

I just found your own thread, so I'm cutting it and pasting it from where I responded on the other one:

I wonder HOW you give the advice, I guess. I have trouble with taking advice as well and this is what I have figured out about myself: I captitulated to whatever he wanted to do when he was home. ( I thought he worked hard and so I should just go along. I was not radically honest.) So there were areas that were MY domain: like homeschooling where I planned and did everything. I finally got to choose what "I" wanted to do. So when he would offer suggestions, I would get really upset because then I felt like I always had to do what he wanted to do. And yes, a lot of times his suggestions WERE better and that just made me feel worse, like I was incapable of making any decisions so I would get even more defensive or dismissive. I'm also trying to figure out with a counselor why any suggestions make me feel like a failure. Because if I make a mistake then I feel like I'm terrible.

What has worked has been the radical honesty which I'm still working on. But if I am radicallly honest about where I want us to go eat or how I want to do vacation or other areas instead of letting him win all the time, I have been much more receptive to his suggestions in other areas. I can take a deep breath and say to myself, "He doesn't think I'm a failure. He just sees this differently. He doesn't think I'm incapable. Deep breath. And then I try to look at his side and we POJA it.

Don't know if it applies, but thought it might. Now that I've read your entire thread. your tone still sounds like you think you can see some situations much better than your wife. You are determined that you are right. I can see why she would be passive agressive instead of radically honest. Your reactions ARE NOT HELPING HER TO BE RADICALLY HONEST. If I were her, I would feel like a complete failure with you...

And one more thing: GET OUT OF THE HOUSE AND HAVE FUN. I can't tell you how much better I feel now that we are doing this. It just isn't the same staying around the house. And don't have heavy conversations. Don't try to fix her. JUST HAVE FUN.

And another thing, how often do you compliment her? How much do you tell her how wonderful she is and what a good job she does? My husband wasn't and was ONLY making suggestions. I never heard how I was doing well. If I spent time cleaning the kitchen and really scrubbing something down, I thought it looked good. But then he came in and his only comment: If you used the vacuum cleaner around the spindles, then you would get the crumbs in the corner.... That made me so mad!! ( i did tell him that much later) Do you happen to do things like that?

**edit**

Disrespectful judgments work in Plan A, huh? That sure doesn't sound like what Dr. Harley says. I guess if it worked for you, great.


NG, where are you coming up with these rules? Inventing them out of whole cloth? That's definitely not the plan Dr. Harley advocates, at any step. Again, if you felt that it worked for you, great, but most of the rest of us recognize that "During the post-affair period the only words that should be coming out of a WS's mouth should be 'Yes, dear'!" describes a master-slave relationship, one that will definitely not win a wife back to a marriage.

That's the complete opposite of the way Dr. Harley says it usually works.

**edit**

Dr. Harley doesn't say that, though.

A reminder to posters that the purpose of this forum is to help others with Marriage Builders concepts. If you can help this poster with that, feel free to post. If not, kindly refrain from posting. Thank you.

Wow, this is getting disturbing. I've been accused of not wanting advice, which I have repeatedly asked and thanked everyone for and there has been conflicting advice given by some of the most active posters.

I'm going to take a break for a while and focus on Plan A. Sometimes, what appears to be arguing betweem posters on someones thread can be frustrating.

tiredwife45, your explanation helped me a great deal. Thank you. I appreciate everyone's feedback and I spent the weekend reflecting on how I may be coming across to my wife. I am a little thick headed and struggle with seeing my own faults (these demands and DJ's especially) so I will focus on those and prayer and see what happens. I'm also going to finish/reread some of the books and try to get this stuff to become more of a habit.

Wow, stick to DR HARLEY's material and you can't go wrong. If you want your marriage to be great, you need to stick to the letter of his program. The folks who don't do this, tend to struggle and have resentments years later. I would hate to see that happen to you.

Dr Harley is not kidding when he says this:

here

There shouldn't be any argument about the basics of this program. It is all right there in black and white.

So, what did your husband actually change to help you become honest with him? Or was it that you finally decided to start being open & honest and thats where you found the best results? I'm really trying to figure out if theres soomething that I can do to help her be radically honest with me. I can stop making suggestions all together if that will help. Your experience is really good for me to hear because it's more from my wifes perspective and that is helping more than just being told I'm making demands. Thanks for taking the time to respond to my thread.

When you feel tempted to offer a suggestion, simply tell her you are available for any help if she needs it. That's it. Say it once with smile. Then go work on your own stuff.

If she wants your help or suggestions, she will ask for it.

Suggestions, when they are unasked for, can easily come across as covert criticism.

Very good questions. What did my husband do???

Well, honestly it was more the people here and other places telling me to be radically honest and the stuff in Dr. Harleys books. Before, I didn't see the point. It seemed safer to keep it all in. I just didn't trust that he really loved me if he really knew me. ( Not sure I'm really quite there yet either, but maybe I've gotten to the point that I want to quit being scared all the time of what if he finds out about ... what if he knew...) What he has done to help me is to not overreact. For example, I made a mistake. I paid bills and then left them in my purse to mail and changed purses and totally forgot they were in there. So we got at 5 dollar late charge on the phone bill. In the past, I would have just filed it and he would never have seen it. This time I left it out. He asked me if it had been paid and then accepted my explanation and we went on. No big deal. Now if he had made a big deal about it, it would have been hard for me to be honest the next time.

Plus I've just had to tell him things like: Sweetie, when you don't tell me what I do right and only come in and make suggestions, it makes me feel like you think I haven't done a good job. Now that was not his intention. The fact is that he is a detail guy and also can't stand to not be doing something, so he will always find something for us to do. Sitting and doing nothing is not in his vocabulary. He has started to get really good about saying, "thank you for cooking dinner. Thank you for doing this for me. Thank you for doing that for me." Before, it felt like an unending list of things to do with no thanks or acknowledgement of what I had done correctly. Doing things effeciently just meant he gave me more to do!!!

So the donor thing: So she got the choice to do the donor letter or visit the people? Did she want to do either or did she do it because she felt like she should ( reluctant agreement). Then she didn't really want to do it and once again became passive agressive because she didn't know how to say she didn't want to. ( I acted enthusiastically. I should do this. It isn't that much.) So now she's mad at herself for agreeing to do this in the first place and her life is too busy or she doesn't get how to do it or whatever. Then she gets defensive. I know I've done this. I've got a million things to do and hubby asks me to do something ( which I never felt like I could say no. He wasn't mean or anything. My therapist is telling me that I view him more like my father who would get really angry when I disagreed or got sarcastic and rude if things were not done exactly like he wanted. But my husband isn't that way!!!) Then the kids need me for something and hubby wants it right then, and I groan or make a face because it isn't a good time and he would get mad that I didn't seem interested in doing it RIGHT THEN. This situation hasn't happened in a long time now and if it did, I would try to be radically honest and say, " I know you want this done, but I'm really overwhelmed right now and I really don't want to do that anymore. Can you take care of it?" Before, I just would have been really mad. But I wouldn't have shown much to hubby, I would have just yelled at the kids.

I totally missed what Never Guessed said as I wasn't on so I didn't get to read it. But I'm guessing it had something to do with the fact that she is the wayward wife and needs to repent. True, and I don't know maybe foggy thinking is involved in this. But I do know that the Harleys say that although there are no excuses for affairs there are reasons. So I think you are wise to clean up your side of the street.

Some of this is your wife understanding that for your relationship to be intimate that you need to understand what she is thinking all the time and that you will love and her more because of it. You will be able to meet her needs better and love her better when she is honest.

I don't know is this helps, but I hope it does.

Thanking for advice doesn't mean you want to follow it. I know, because I used to do that a lot.

As MelodyLane says, follow Dr. Harley's plan and you can't go wrong. I do my best to help posters here (particularly men) understand and follow Dr. H's plans, because they have worked so well for me.

My number one recommendation is this: become a daily listener of Dr. Harley's radio show, because that's the only real place you'll get his raw, unfiltered advice, and learn why his recommendations are the way they are and why deviation can be a problem.

To get back to the original issue: believe it or not, there's a lot of work you can do to be less demanding and disrespectful toward your wife, and if you ever want to get that love bank full, you need to get this problem on the front burner and understand it and deal with it.

Marriage recovery is not for wimps. There's a lot of hard work, especially for men. A lot of it feels very unfair, but it is what it is.

This is really good stuff TW45.

So, you had some insecurities? Were they unfounded or was H actually contributing to them? If he was, what was it? Our situations sould very similar and maybe I'm doing some of the same stuff that he was. My W is very insecure and for the life of me I can't figure out why. She's so good at so many things that you'd expect her confidence to be really high. And yes, I tell her when she does a good job (like dinner, cleaning, CPR on the dead guy, all of it).

We've had the talk about telling her what she is doing well. It's one of her top EN's so I'm making it a point to tell her even more than the everyday stuff. Like when she is open & honest with me, I thank her and tell her how much it means to me. Your point about the "never ending list" is interesting. There was a point where it seemed like everything was on me (during the affair) and at times I almost begged her for help. Stuff like finances, cleaning, yard work. I was working full time (she wasn't working) and nothing was getting done. Thats better now because we're doing everything together (except cooking. I dont feel welcomed in the kitchen when she's cooking and its ok with me).

On the topic of the fund-raising. No, she didn't get the choice of one or the other. I appreciated her input and I was fully prepared to do both. Only, my part wasn't visiting the potential donors. I had to research all of the companies in our state and make a list of their names, addresses and contacts to send a mailing to. Most of these weren't local so the work was online and very tedious. I ended up writing a program to mine the data from the Chamber of Commerse websites.

Anyway, she likes the concept of marketing and offered to do the letter. I dont remember any "one or the other" conversations. Although, I'm not saying that she didn't see it that way.

I think you're right in respect to the idea that she really didn't want to do it and didn't know how to say so. I think the non-profit was way more than she realized and after it was going, she didn't know how to tell me that she wasn't really into it. We touched on this in one of our counselling sessions but we never dug into it to the point where she admitted that she didn't want to do it but she did admit to being passively resistant to it.

Anyway, this weekend she told me that she may have resentment toward me for the things that she's missing due to consequences of the affair. Mostly that she can't be part of the local fire dept, and since most of her friends were related to that somehow and most people in the fire dept are men, the boundary of not having opposite sex friends means I've taken her friends away. It sounds like more withdrawal talk and is frustrating for me. I mean REALLY, I'm to blame for these consequences??? I just asked her if there was anything that I could do to help and she said she'd let me know. We left it at that for now.

Thanks again for taking the time

<sarcasm>You sound like me a little. I give advice to my wife, she doesn't want to follow it but thanks me for it and then I get frustrated...</sarcasm>

Actually, I'm very analytical so telling me that I'm being demanding and disrespectful and expecting me to just say "thank you, I'll do that" is a waste of time. I'm the kind of person that needs to understand the problem from the perspective of my wife. tiredwife45 has taken the time to post her experience which seems very similar to my wife's so it it helping me see it from that point of view. Don't be offended if I dont jump on the advice right away. If it seems like I'm arguing or apprehensive it's just because I dont yet understand the problem fully. Once I do, I'll be more than willing to make the necessary changes.

In fact, what I am doing by trying to dig into this is just as you said... "you need to get this problem on the front burner and understand it and deal with it"

If it seems like I'm arguing or apprehensive it's just because I don't yet understand the problem fully.

Well, I THINK you'll discover that you short-changed a few of Dr. Harley's recommendations as you and WW started to re-connect.

1) What were the agreed-upon EPs that you committed to? And equally, if not not more, importantly, what were the negotiated sanctions for violations of those EPs?

2) What form and extent of Just Compensation did you demand from her for your proffered gift of getting past her betrayal of you and her marital vows?

When I (perhaps too) glibly referenced the BS's right to steer the recovery bus, these were the Harley-endorsed elements I was alluding to. Without them, couples rent by infidelity are merely applying the "Let's just get past this," gambit, and it rarely succeeds. The WS never internalizes the possibly radical changes necessary to her behavior, and the BS has the resentment just fester without being purged.

No problem, Wow; I'm not offended in the slightest.

Ever seen Lord of the Rings? If so, do you recall the scene where Bilbo promises to turn loose of the ring, debates and talks about it a long time, finally makes his decision, then heaves a sigh of relief and starts to go on his merry way and then Gandalf says:

"Bilbo ... the ring is still in your pocket."

A lot of times to help people here we need to let them know the ring is still in their pocket. i.e., they say they are going to follow the steps to recovery, but they are going on without making a necessary change.

Don't be offended if I keep pointing out any spots I happen to see where there's still a necessary change to be made.

A note about understanding:

You need to understand that this is a problem.

You don't need to understand why it's a problem. You don't need to understand why your wife feels the way she does in order to stop behavior that is making love bank withdrawals.

You can figure out those details later. In the Marriage Builders plan, you have to stop all behavior that your spouse isn't enthusiastic about, whether you understand the reasons or not.

But sometimes you need someone to tell you exactly what it is you are doing to correct your behavior.

If all you say is you are making me feel bad, stop it, but when asked what it is and you can't give a concrete answer, it's pretty darn hard for the person you are asking to stop it to know what it it is they are to stop.

(I hope that came out ok.)

Sometimes asking to understand is not asking to understand the why for someone else, it's asking to understand the what it is you are doing.

If I have goal A, and you are telling me I'm anti-A, then if I think I'm striving towards goal A and you keep telling me I'm anti-A without specifics, it's very hard to understand.

Sometimes understanding is not understanding why someone feels how they do, but getting to the specifics of what you are doing that leads them to feel that way.

It's a valid question to request detailed examples of the troublesome behavior. Otherwise, how does someone know what to stop if no details are provided?

1. The EPs and their sanctions were not really negotiated. They were firm boundaries of mine and the sanctions for not following them were simply that I would no longer work on the marriage. I would move to plan D. That being said, I know that it takes time to create new habits and I'm not willing to walk away for slight infractions of MOST of the EPs. I say MOST because the ones that have to with contact with POSOM were single elimination EPs. Any breakage of those and I would be history. (I know this is not really considered an EP but I listed it as a boundary that I would not bend on). The others, like conversations with other men... Since she works with mostly men, I realize that she will catch herself and redirect conversations. She has shown me texts that she has received from men that were not work related. She responded appropriately to them and sent them on their way. I have told her each time how much it means to me for her to be doing that and being open any showing me.

Oter EPs included committment to MB program, all recreational activity to be done together, no over-nights apart, no in-town shopping without me until we move to a different town, no personal relationships with opposite sex

2. The Just Compensation was boiled down to 2 main points (all of which surround the EPs).
a). She has to show my heart the care necessary to heal (NC, affection, help with finances, general care & concern for where I am in the healing process)
b). She has to be open and honest with me so that I can change my behavior that upsets her. This will help me to clean up my part of the marital problems that existed pre-A

Thank you for putting it so clearly

Ok, let's work backwards:

JC's (generously translated): So, how's she doing?

Is she showing you the care, etc, required? (We already know the answer, since you're still here asking for help!)

Has she been open and honest, in dispute-avoiding ways, in displaying to you those things about yourself that bother her? (And this is quite a stretch to be a JC element: "To compensate you for my infidelity, I'm going to instruct you on how NOT to give me excuses to do it again!" Kinda like an embezzler being sentenced to NOT re-applying for employment with the embezzled company! )

Let's save your "EPs" for later.

I'm putting my thoughts in red. But I don't think you ever answered my question: how much UA time are you getting and is it good and meeting those 4 top needs? Are you having fun together? The more she has fun the less she will miss the fire department. This is another example from us. I was ULTRA involved at church and I realized why when I started trying to work on our marriage. He was gone or busy doing chores. We spend time at home but not TOGETHER having fun. we did chores, fun stuff with kids, etc. But we were not connecting together. You can ask those on this board, but I kicked and screamed about giving up my involvement because that is where I got my admiration ( top need) and recreation ( top need) . They said I would miss it less if hubby and I were doing it more, and that is the truth. So why does she like the fire department so much? What needs is that filling for her? You need to fill those needs in your UA time.

I think it might just be the way you are wording this that is causing confusion and we are probably thinking the same thing. Just compensation is NOT whatever the BS just makes up. It is a very specific set of behaviors that constitute just compensation. It is summarized in Requirements for Recovery:


It involves complete separation from the affair partner, implementing extraordinary precautions followed by the Basic Concepts of Marriage Builders. THAT is what Dr Harley means by just compensation.

JC's (generously translated): So, how's she doing?
She's doing some things very well. Such as helping with the finances, and general care of wher I am in the healing process. She asks me how I am doing and shows concern if I tell her about the dreams. She regularly asks if there is anything she can do to help. Sometimes there will be something, sometimes not. I'm open about those too.

Other things like affection I seem to have to initiate. Like holding hands, snuggling at night, etc.

As far as #2 being a stretch, its not really a stretch for me. I consider it JC because she never told me before the affair what I was doing to driver her away. Does she owe me the consideration of telling me what I can/should change so I dont continue to driver her away? I think so but I may be stretching the definition of JC.

I see it as "To compensate you for my allowing your behavior to go unchanged, I'm going to be open with you about what upsets me so I dont feel like a POS by you anymore". Yes, she can compensate me by taking responsibility for not being strong enough to tell me.

WOW, you can safely assure her that she won't have resentment when these activities are replaced with better things in your marriage. The greater risk would be YOUR resentment if she continued that involvement. The key, as tirewife suggested, is UA time. Once you become each others favorite recreational companion, and are IN LOVE, she won't miss that stuff.

Effective Marriage Counseling pg 112 - 113

What about Resentment?

One of the most common objections to the POJA is that it creates
resentment when it�s followed. I agree; it does usually create some
resentment. But far more resentment is created when it is not followed.
An illustration will help make this important point.

George is invited to watch football with his friend Sam. He tells
his wife, Sue, that he plans to accept the invitation. Sue objects.

If George goes ahead and watches the game, he�s guilty of independent
behavior. He is not following the POJA, and Sue will be resentful.
When George does something against the wishes of Sue, I call
her resentment type A.

If George follows the POJA and doesn�t accept Sam�s invitation,
George will be resentful. When George is prevented from doing something
because of Sue�s objections, I call his resentment type B.

Which type of resentment makes the largest Love Bank withdrawals:
type A or type B? The answer is type A, and that�s why the POJA
helps build Love Bank balances. I�ll explain.

When George violates the POJA, Sue has no choice but to feel
the effect of the thoughtless decision (Love Bank withdrawals) for
as long as memory persists�possibly for life whenever the event is
recalled. But when George follows the POJA, the negative effect is
limited in time. It lasts only as long as it takes to discover an enjoyable
alternative that is acceptable to Sue.

George lets Sue know how disappointed he is with her objection
but is willing to discuss other options. Sue wasn�t invited to watch
football and doesn�t want to invite herself to Sam�s house, so she
suggests inviting Sam and his wife to their house to watch football.
George calls Sam, he and his wife accept, and the new activity puts
an end to George�s type B resentment.

Type A resentment can last forever, but type B resentment stops
the moment a mutually enjoyable alternative is discovered. Those
with poor negotiating skills may have trouble seeing the difference
because they have not learned how to resolve conflicts. They may
feel resentment about a host of issues that have been unresolved in
their marriage. But after you teach a couple to negotiate successfully,
unresolved issues are minimized. Then it becomes clear to
them that the POJA helps build Love Bank balances by eliminating
type A resentment.
_________________________

We were posting at the same time. Did you see my question about UA time?

Where exactly ARE you in the Marriage Builders program, though? Which books are you using? Where are you exactly? Do you have the workbook?

Have you read about Respectful Persuasion in Lovebusters yet?

OK, here goes. ML & TW45, I'll try to answer both of you at once.

We go between 2-3 hours of UA time a day. We do chores, work in the yard, play cards, talk about our day, go out to dinner, go for walks and other exercise. Some of the top ENs get met but others dont. For example, SF is not getting met and thats mostly on me. I'm struggling with it a lot because of the dreams that I'm having.

As far as her resentment about the fire dept. This gets into the DJ area so I've been careful not to give my full blown opinion too often here.

WW grew up in a family of volunteer fireman/EMTs. Her dad was a long time member of his dept and an EMT instructor. WW, along with her mother and sister, participated in the ladies auxillary.

Now, growing up, WW always wanted to be a part of the action which back then was a mans world. Fast forward to 2009 when WW went thru EMT school. She got a ton of affirmation from me but virtually NO affirmation from her father. She struggled with this even though she denies it. Yes, this may be a DJ but I got to watch, front row, every time she told her father about another accomplishment and her father changed the subject and completely disregarded her. The looks on her face and her demeaner would change for hours or sometimes days until she just "got passed" it. Over time, she had many firsts as an EMT. Her first CPR case, her first CPR save, her first life star (helo) call, her first DOA, all of which were very exciting for her. Her father's response... NOTHING!!! He changes the subject to the step mothers grand children or something else equally annoying. Later, she got promoted to Lieutenant and the same reaction from daddy. After Firefighter school, same thing. She has been so disappointed by this. Everytime I show her the greatest admiration, respect and esteem it seems to have no impact, especially after she talks to her dad. I think this is where her insecurity comes from.

So (another DJ maybe), I think her resentment towards me stems from the fact that I took the vehicle (fire dept) away from her so now she can't get his approval. She has told me that she lost her dream when she had to quit the fire dept. I say that this may be a DJ because she denies the issue with her father exists. I cannot discuss this with her at all though as it causes her to get REALLY mad that I would suggest that she has father issues...

ML, we have read SAA, I'm reading LB and she is reading HNHN right now. We do have the workbook but haven't started it yet.

Prisca, I haven't gotten to it yet. I plan to get through that part tonight.

I would gently, and honestly, talk to her about no longer giving her dad so much of her life to spit on.

So stop suggesting she has father issues. It is a DJ to try to diagnose your spouse's feelings or actions. Don't discuss it anymore.

And really, it doesn't matter if it's father issues or not. As Melody said, her resentment will disappear when she has better things in your marriage.

I agree. That will be HER work that SHE will have to do. You can't do it for her and can't make her. concentrate on FUN UA time. Plus, if you are the one filling her big need for admiration then it won't matter so much anymore anyway. Just ACT. Don't use that as an excuse for you not to do anything.

How about affection, conversation, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment? Are these exciting dates where you are focused on EACH OTHER and there is no one else around? Where are your kids during these hours?


Good. At least you know what she doesn't want to talk about and know not to bring up unpleasant subjects. As far as her resentment, it will fade when she starts getting her "dream" from her marriage. That is the whole goal here.

The goal is to create a romantic, passionate marriage in the PLACE of the hole left by the affair. If that does not happen, you will be feeling resentment for years to come. You will resent the lack of just compensation and feel cheated, and she will resent the things she had to "sacrifice" for you.

Do you see where I am going with this?

You have read them, but have you IMPLEMENTED them? They don't work just by reading them. I also "read" the books and posted on the forums for years. My marriage didn't improve much until we started DOING everything.

Where are you on the policy of joint agreement? If Dr Harley gave you both the lovebank inventory test today [that measures your romantic love] where do you think you both would rank?

Same here. Knowledge alone, without action, will only make things worse.

About the father issue, don't bring it up ever again because you would be psychoanalyzing your wife. That is a huge lovebuster.

One more thing and then I'm off until probably Wednesday. I agree with Melody. You can't bring it up, but I do think it will help you to understand. And doing the things they mentioned actually doing the steps MIGHT allow her to see it for herself. For example, I realized it a couple of weekends ago. I was making biscuits. Hubby came in and visited with me. I can't remember what was going on the night before but for whatever reason the kitchen was a MESS. I had been doing so well to try and keep it clean. Hubby just started cleaning it up and chatting with me. I almost started crying because I felt like a failure. He shouldn't have to do that. He works so hard He should just sit. But then I thought. Wait a minute he isn't mad at you. He helped make the mess, why am I feeling like a failure when he is just helping out. I saw that it was my problem that I needed to deal with. He wasn't doing ANYTHING wrong and yet I was crying because he was cleaning the kitchen!!!

So she will eventually see her own stuff if you clean up your side of the street and don't love bust. Just clean up your side of the street and let her worry about her own.

I'm going to repeat this, because it might have gotten missed:

This transformed me from a person of little understanding to someone who understood the program inside and out. WOW, you said you have to have a good understanding of the steps you take, well, here it is!! you will be amazed at how Dr Harley takes people through these steps. He takes his principles and applies them to specific situations, explaining his reasons all along the way. Listening to the radio show opened it all up for me.

Please follow Markos' excellent recommendation.

I listen to it during my daily drive to work. Doing it with your WW would be nice. I read on a thread that someone does with their spouse and afterwards talk about the subjects. I think that would benefit you greatly.

Like I said, I am no longer discussing this with her as it is a major love buster. It's been 3 months since it has been brought up

We're listening to MB radio now

Good man!!

There's a MB radio show?

Can I get some links with that?

Congratulations WOW!!

Great!

Hooray!

I do like TranquilDark above and listen during my drive to and from work. Prisca and I often listen to shows together on other occasions, too. Last night we listened while painting a classroom at church.

Every so often, one of our kids actually asks to hear Dr. Harley in the car!

Reposting for emphasis:


That sums it up in a nutshell. Focus on the present. Here in Marriage Builders you have the tools to build a happy present and an ecstatic future.