Hi all... I'm an oldie returning after a bit of hiatus.... (Old timers will remember me as ABR before I was discovered on this site...)

So, quick back story, few years ago, H had an EA, with very little PA. Did my plan A, ended up in plan B. H realized he was stupid, and came back.

Fast forward to last month. His company hired a new girl. Young, fresh out of college. She's been working on and off with my H. (He telecommutes, so he isn't in the office, and there are several states between him and her). He's told me about her, at least as much as he wants to... Told me he was keeping things professional, and that she had a BF else he wouldn't feel as okay talking to her.

Recently, I noticed he was getting more loving towards me. Kind of surprising, but very welcome.

Then it struck me, something wasn't right. Alarms started going off. So, I start to snoop. H knows I know his emails and passwords, that I may occasionally snoop, etc. So, I noticed, I thought he had been emailing this girl a bit more than he would an average coworker. But, couldn't find anything. Then looked at the sents. Saw an email that was a little more personal that he should have been. Ok, fine, but again, bells start going off more.

Then, after the weekend, I went to snoop again in his email. The email in the sents was gone! Who REALLY deletes their sent emails? Especially just one??? anyone?!?

So, looked in the trash. H didn't think to delete the trash (to my happiness AND saddness). Been keeping copies of the emails - definitely bordering on inappropriate. And they skype - have I mentioned I really HATE skype between this and the crap that happened a few years back - and apparently since I was home last week they had to keep their conversation professional, and thinking about using "code words" in case they have to keep things professional. 2

I am now looking to record his conversations, because obviously I'm missing more, shall we say interesting, conversations they have.

I've busted out my SAA book, really working on a good plan A to get his mind back to me and us and such. I just wanted to get back on here cause I am in need of support again. I'm going to keep snooping right now and get more evidence.

Sad to be back, but hello again....

CD

What EPs did he put in place?

Put a keylogger on.

Why do they need to Skype?

Also put a VAR where he skypes.

Have you given any thought to what plan you will use IF you discover an EA? A PA?
It is my opinion .... that a second D day (a new infidelity) after recovery deserves a nuclear exposure shock-n-awe, followed by Plan B.

So, sadly, this is my advice ... As you are gathering evidence, prepare for Plan B.
I hope you don't need Plan B.

If you decide to Plan A, that's OK too. Like I said, just my opinion.

*link* to Plan B instructions

Even if your choice becomes "Plan D" .... You should Plan B as the divorce unfolds.
Even if your choice is to Plan A ..... Your should prepare a Plan B .

If your choice is to Plan A .... my opinion is that the stick should be HUGE and the carrot be made of gold.

Plan A, for a second infidelity, should be ever-so brief. One week? 10 days?
Short & sweet.
Knock his socks off with your wonderfulness, then .... knock him out with your absence.

It is my opinion .... that your plan A will make you look like the grand prize, and he is the biggest loser.

If you stay together, he cannot take step one of recovery without talking to Steve Harley .... a LOT!!!

Sorry you are back

I just happened to be looking back at some of the advice I received following dday 3 -- I had ZERO interest in trying to meet my xWH' ENs (the thought made me ill), and a friend said something along the lines of the fact that Plan A works on a first time offender, helps to shake them out of their fog/fantasy a little bit -- but not on someone like your H or my xH, a person who is not clueless about how to protect a M.

Your H's latest A has nothing to do with unmet needs AT ALL. It's because he refuses to give up his SSL and because he refuses to close his LB$ to other women.

I would focus more on getting the evidence and preparing a plan for what he will need to do to keep YOU in the marriage.

Did you ever poly him regarding his past affair/s?

Did you ever put a keylogger on the computer? (I saw this was an issue in your past thread -- you wanted to do it and he was concerned about your snooping or something along those lines)

Dr. Harley also adds that (particularly for a wife), Plan A can consist solely of communicating the WILLINGNESS to meet emotional needs. i.e., IF you will agree to protect our marriage, then I am willing to meet your emotional needs. There is no point in a lady destroying her health and mind trying to outcompete an active affair.

Brainhurts - Got a VAR going... supposedly they are skyping while I'm at work... will be listening to it tonight. Also will be putting a keylogger on soon - just need to wait for a time to do so without being noticed. Luckily he doesn't know I've been snooping his emails - guess that's the "nice" part of my previous experience... I know better what to do.

Pep - oh how I've valued your input. Always have. Plan B would have to wait - I have no way of leaving this time. Soon, maybe, but not yet. So, a shorter Plan A can't be in the plans, but prepping for a Plan B will be. I have also been really really working the carrot - and will seriously plan for the crushing stick.

SuzieQ - very true about serial cheaters. I know why he does this. He's lonely. Am I excusing it? Heck no! I agree, this isn't about me this time. Last time? Yes, I will accept 1/2 the blame. Not this time.


**And just an update from today's snooping - seems SHE is putting the brakes on the unprofessionalness of their conversations. She has said she's not comfortable with the direction their convos have been heading, and wants to set limits/boundries. Have you ever heard of an OW actually putting the brakes on before it gets out of hand??? Will be monitoring this, but this to me is a VERY interesting twist compared to last time. (And no, that doesn't mean I'm stopping ANY of what I am doing, but I find that really interesting... And as far as I can tell, he has NO idea I've been snooping or that I am even the least bit suspicious...) Will be watching to see where this is going...

Thank you all for your advice and support thus far!!!

Markos, good thoughts. Will be keeping this in mind, especially after the stress and heartbreak of the first A...

Actually, he feels entitled to get his needs met elsewhere and he doesn't care that much about hurting you. Sorry to say

True, SusieQ... cake-eating, isn't that what it's called?

So, newest update. She asked him yesterday why he feels nervous talking to her. Found an email this morning (which I luckily got since it's already deleted... time to get a keylogger!) with him saying that he really likes her, more than he should , and telling her about how he tried and failed to get a divorce, and all this crap.

I'm broken. Worst part is he keeps telling me he loves me, texting me that, etc. I think it may have been easier last time when he just ignored me instead of this. I've almost got enough information. I am waiting on the latest recording to find out her response to his declaration of like, interest, idk.

Do I confront soon? Do I just expose and say F you? I do want to keep my marriage, but at what cost? I can't go through this every couple of years. He seems to regret he wasn't able to divorce me before... wtf? And I don't know if I mentioned before, we have a DS... what about him? I hate the fact that he gets stuck in between this.

No. You expose to others soon. Let WH find out you 'know' because you have exposed.
Who are your exposure targets?




Expose, yes. Leave off the "F".



WH does not think you have a limit to what you will put up with.
What IS YOUR LIMIT?
If you are NOT certain what your limit is, it's for damn certain WH does not know.


You did not bring this steaming pile of horse manure home, WH did.

Your son needs to be at the top of your exposure list.

Good question. His sister, maybe his dad and step mom. His mom hates me and would not be beneficial in any way other than to help him move out on me. I can expose to my friends and family, but we know whose "side" they would be on. There really isn't a lot of people... he really doesn't have friends.

ok


I told him the last time that I would NOT tolerate this again. I said if he pulled this crap again, I would file the D papers. Do I want to? Heck no. But I can't keep going through this cycle.

How does one explain to a 5 year old that his daddy is being an A-Hole???

Thank you pep, I appreciate you taking the time to help me.

I exposed to my 5 year old. In simple terms.
I said mommy is having an affair with CXXXXXX. When you are Married you are not supposed to have boyfriends or girlfriends.

Did you follow the recovery plan in his first affair?

OK.


The following is my opinion.
I think you should file for a legal separation if that is available where you live.
I do not think any BS should make idle threats or ultimatums.
You TOLD WH what you would do, if you do NOT "file", WH has no reason to believe you are serious.

If a legal separation is not an option, file for a D.
Do NOT announce your plans, just do this and let him find out when he is "served".

To a 5-year old "You know what marriage means? It means 2 adults make a promise to only be romantic with each other. Well, Daddy has broken his promise. Daddy has a girlfriend. This is not good. Mommy has to protect herself from Daddy having a girlfriend. This is not your fault. If you have questions about this, ask me. What do you want for dinner?"

Cake eating is a normal thing that waywards do.

What your WH has done makes him different from a normal recovered/ing WS.

He knows what going down this path means and he knows how much it hurt you and he did it, again. Not an oops, I let someone meet my needs and I don't know how this happened -- but he has gone out of his way to make it happen.

Why am I telling you this? If you decide to recover with this man, you need to raise the bar very high, so that having a SSL and having an affair is next to impossible.

Your signature line:




In fact I saw other red flags as I skimmed your last two threads. Ex) there was some excuse about your H rejecting MB because he had been poisoned against it by OW who found your thread??

cd, your H has never stopped gaslighting you. The reason he rejected MB is because he didn't want to make changes to protect you and because he didn't want to give up his IB and SSL.

If you choose to try to R this, you must insist from your WH that in addition to 100% implementation of MB that he also submit to a poly, because I don't think you have gotten the full truth from him regarding his first A and this would be a good first step towards him becoming radically honest.

You may want to also consider making him post here and/or sign a post-nuptial agreement.

I think Susie's advice is spot on ... this SSL is at the hands of your husband.

Something I would advise if recovery is in the works is to work with Steve Harley to really pin point both of your EN's.

The HIGH your WH gets trumps everything .... you and your son. He would rather throw you under the bus than get rid of this HIGH. This is why Dr. Harley calls affairs (EA & PA) addictions. Because this feeling your WH is getting will ultimately destroy everything.

I have only see serial cheaters recover on this forum by having ROCK SOLID EP's and their spouse works extensively to meet their EN's. It may be coincidence, but I usually see WH's who are serial cheaters have a very very high need for admiration and/or intimate conversation.

If you are not able to Plan B, then work your Plan A with lots and lots of admiration and lots and lots of intimate conversation. Since he is working from home, I would spend my lunches with him and I would make sure you up your family time with him. Try to get him to fully engage your DS. Maybe prepare small family trips over the weekends, so it is just the three of you.

Many prayers for you and your family.

Ok, only have a short amount of time on this:
Jedi - no, because he does not believe in MB principles, though in all honesty, we probably did as close to an R plan as we could. I went with him on all trips, shared emails, spent lots of us time, etc...

Pep, I've been researching legal separation, and is possible in my state. I'm holding off for now ( I'll explain in a moment...)

Susieq - funny you mention my sig line. That was not him not telling me. That was my choice. I did not want to fully know (at least when I wrote that sig line a couple years back.). We've delved into it some, so I have a general idea, but maybe it's time I ask the full truth. And what's SSL? I have been gone since that one came about...

Walkin- true enough. My plan A is in overdrive right now, and I'd like to believe its getting through to him.

So, new developments: he told OW that he likes her more than he knows he should. (Well, duh...) and.... She rejected him. She is not interested in that. Smart girl. And yes, that came from my snooping, not from him telling me of anything.

So, question is: what now? I know to plan A, and quite frankly I don't want to D - but i cannot be played the fool again. I want to confront, since he is still guilty of letting his feelings stray, and would like to reintroduce in a positive way MB principles, so there isn't backlash against it. I haven't seen this type of EA addressed as much, so I'm not as sure of my steps. Thoughts? TY to all!

The 'steps' are exactly the same.
EDIT TO ADD:
This is not 'adultery lite' you are dealing with. WH's attitude is 'adultery heavy'.
If he locates a willing OW within driving distance, he'd be having a PA right away.
This particular OW is not your problem. Your WH"s renter/freeloader attitude is the problem.
WH's attitude shows he will throw his marital fidelity under the bus with ease.

And plan A the STICK !!!!
The carrot has been there all along, right?
Have you been an unreasonable wife? An unattractive wife? A love-busting wife?
I am NOT asking if you have been a "perfect wife", don't even go there.
Have you been a good wife?



If you let it be known that you will not fully deliver the STICK of Plan A, your WH will soon forget the lesson he is supposed to learn. The lesson?




You do what you want. But exposure works a hell of a lot better than "confrontation".
If you confront without doing an exposure first, I say "good luck". And I wish you well.

Secret Second Life -- this has been in Dr Harley's articles for quite a while now. I know I discussed this topic with Dr Harley in 2009 (and my xH did as well) so it was in the materials when you posted in 2010.

This is not what you said in your previous thread -- you said that your WH was "poisoned" to MB from the OW who found your thread.

Please note that waywards who do not want to give up their SSL and/or IB (which is true in your case) will gaslight the BS into not using MB. It is up the the BS to stand their ground.

After all, the wayward does not get to call the shots in R after engaging such marriage wrecking behavior.

cd, if you are familiar with Dr Harley's writings, you should know that he is pretty big on radical honesty. Especially when recovering the M, you should know all of the facts so that you can implement EPs. I can understand not wanting to know all of the nitty-gritty details but most certainly you need to know if it was a PA and how/where they met, etc. I hope you had him take an STD test, at this point you should take one yourself as well.

It is still red flag the fact that you don't know this even if it was your decision to not know. Denial/sweeping things under the rug by the BS is a big problem just as it would be if your WH was refusing to be honest.

x2

cd, your WH knows that he can manipulate and gaslight you and you won't do much about it.

You need to expose him at work too! Especially since his attempted affair is taking place within his workplace.

To me, it is a bit of relief that this OW is not buying his BS and advances, but what about the next girl that he "has feelings for".

If your H is serious about your marriage, then he will be serious about MB. Why would not not want some of the best "free" marriage advice and the perfect plan to make a wonderful marriage?

Only a caking eating, gas lighting, cheating, double lifer rejects MB (that coming from an ex-CEGLCDL )

cd78, the conditions for reconciliation and recovery are not negotiable. This is something I would make clear to your husband. This is why you are dealing with repeat affairs. Welcome to your future!

If he doesn't "buy into" those conditions, then Plan B is your next step because if he doesn't do those things, you are facing more affairs. He doesn't "believe in MB principles?" huh? That is not acceptable because they are not negotiable.

It is obvious your husband is actively looking for action. That is much different from your average WS who falls into an affair because he is ignorant. Your H is not ignorant at all. He just doesn't give a damn. He doesn't care if he hurts you and that makes him a dangerous man.

I wouldn't waste a second with Plan A. I would be giving him an ultimatum that he either implements extraordinary precautions to protect you from another affair or he leaves. I would be looking at Plan B if I were you.

Here is a post Dr Harley made to another wife over on the private forum. The situation is slightly different in that this WH was in an active affair - he is a serial cheater. Your H is just TRYING to be in an active affair even though he knows how painful it will be to you.

Exactly. cd, your WH is not "guilty of letting his feelings stray again".

I found this from your thread in 2010 to further demonstrate this point.


You updated the thread months later saying you never found out what this was all about and it looked like you resolved this problem with more PLAN A, like you are trying to do now.

The problem is that he wants other women to meet his ENs...not that you need to do a better job of it. More PLAN A is not the answer.

This is the problem in your marriage, cd78, and is why you find yourself facing multiple affairs. You are hoping he will magically change by "introducing MB principles in a positive way" rather than insisting he make a radical changes. You have no conditions here so he is just living down to your low expectations.

You want to have a marriage? Set the bar high and he either makes radical, dramatic changes in his lifestyle or he hits the road. Otherwise, you have a marriage to a playah and a future full of affairs. If he doesn't change, then you are better off without him.

cd, I am very sad to see you back here.

Plan A is going to do you more harm than good.

Why can't you Plan B?

Ok, there is far too many responses to get to them all. I apologize.

So, let me just say this quickly. You are all right. I know it, you know it, and I'll leave it at that.

Scotty, thanks and hello... I cannot plan B because I literally have no where to go, and no $$ at this point. I do have a possible job opportunity though that should be coming my way in the next couple of weeks (almost positive they're going to hire me, the woman basically said I can't hire you on the spot but you'll be hearing from me soon) and so at that time I can go Plan B and file. I can't kick him out for a variety of reasons that I would likely just get for, so I'll just leave it at that.

Have you spoken to a family law attorney and learned about child support and spousal support?

Pep- as of yet, no, but I still have all the info from a few years back.... guess occasionally it's good to be a pack rat.

cd78, if your husband leaves, he will still have to support you. Do you realize this? I would approach him with a list of your conditions and if he won't take radical steps to meet them, I would ask him to move out.

Cd, you know me better than that. I'm not gonna let you get away with half answers.

Is your plan to Plan B if you get this job? What if you don't? You have already been living with this for far too long as it is. False recoveries SUCK.

So you could get him out of the house if you really wanted to?

ok, got a break at work....

ML - no, honestly, did not know that. Never honestly thought that way, especially since his paycheck pays the rent, etc....

Scotty - yes, I should know this by now... I do, but sometimes don't realize I'm only half answering...

Is my plan to Plan B if I get this job - well, one would think... see my response to ML, as I never thought of anything else other than needing to support myself/my DS if I kick him out or I leave...

BH - IDK, to be completely honest. As I said, he works from home...


So, I guess I'm just as confused as I ever was/ever will be. I know better, I deserve better. To go back to what ML said, and I'm being completely serious and honest in this, how would I go to him with a list of conditions, especially if I'm not to confront him, and what would they be?
Obviously I have no set bar, or at least not one high enough to protect my marriage from this crud...
I'm afraid of directing him to post here... this is my own personal fear - I know that I will probably get the gas lighting and babble and all that crud, especially if he reads this thread.
Do I say, we do this my way or we're done? I guess I don't even know where to start.... (and so is anyone really surprised I'm back.... no, I didn't think so...)

This is not MB gospel, but based on my experience.
I started with a list.
My list taught me a lot about myself.
I began writing something like this:

"I don't think I want a cheating husband".
That struck me as weak.
So I changed it to:
"I don't want a cheating husband."
Then, I changed it to something better:
"I am certain I will not remain married to a cheating husband." <~~~ BINGO!

Then, I went on to write many other things. Every item began "I am certain ...."

Until you know what you are certain about you will flounder and be vulnerable to lies & gas-lighting.


"I am certain I will not stay in a marriage where my needs and concerns are not important to you.
I am certain I will not stay in an unsafe marriage.
I am certain that unless my needs to be protected are met, I will be seeking a separation from this marriage.
If we separate, returning to the marriage will require you follow specific rules to protect our marriage from another affair.
Let me know when you are ready to see my rules of protection."

Yes, you confront him. DEAD ON. You are supposed to be FIRM and SERIOUS and I don't see that you have ever done that.

Set him down and explain that you want to have a romantic, loving, SAFE marriage and that you won�t stay in a loveless marriage where you have to endure his alley catting. In order for the marriage to recover, he will have to make radical, dramatic changes in order to protect you. This is what it will take to keep you in this marriage:

1. no more contact with any women at work, even secretaries, support staff, etc

2. no more nights apart or going out without each other - create a healthy, integrated lifestyle

3. complete transparency - cell phone passwords, etc

4. no more opposite sex friendships

5. complete honesty about his affair<s> � passing a polygraph

6. commit to the Marriage Builders program for recovery as outlined in the book Surviving an Affair.

Tell him "this is what it will take to keep me in this marriage." Whether your marriage ends up with success or failure will depend almost entirely on his willingness and ability to make radical changes. His lifestyle must become absolutely transparent, holding nothing back. He is in no position to negotiate when it comes to extraordinary precautions, because those precautions are designed to prevent another affair and help you feel safe.

He must also meet your emotional needs in a way that until now he has failed. Unless he makes a 180 degree turn in his approach to what it means to be a husband, your marriage won't recover, and affairs will be a way of life for you.

You have nothing to lose and everything to gain by taking this approach, because if he won't do these things, you will have lost nothing except a loveless, abusive marriage.

If he won't do these things and do them immediately, I would ask him to move out. And yes, he will have to pay the bills.

If he declines your offer, go pack up his clothes for him.

Agree with ML's list -- but would add poly. This is necessary since you don't know the full extent of his first affair and what else he has been doing in his secret second life (such as the online dating profile, etc)

Ok, so here's what I've come up with...

I DESERVE not to be cheated on, emotionally OR physically.
I DESERVE a marriage based on honestly, love, and mutual honesty
I DESERVE to be respected

How can this be done?

-No more females as friends
-Complete transparency - no hidden email addies, all passwords shared
-Complete honesty - from the first A to now
-No more skype/facetime/whatever with females - even for work
-No more deleted emails - shows dishonesty/untruthfulness, etc.
-Commit to MB principles

I basically combined Pep & ML's ideas. Thoughts?

Know ahead of time what spousal support you are legally entitled to.

All right folks, time to get the ready. I have a feeling my head will be sore....


Confronted H Monday, basically said why he has to choose to break my heart with his crap. I didn't have to explain what I meant by that at all. Blamed some of it on her being interested in him and stuff (this was a realization just a bit ago, didn't catch it at the time). I plain and simple said to him that he has no boundaries. He agreed. He went on to bemoan about how he can't have friends (because the only type of friend he makes is female...). I told him no, he can't, not if he can't keep boundaries.

He asked if I was going to leave, and I told him not if you stop this crap now, and he said it was already over before I confronted (please don't think I'm gonna believe that for a moment, although she DID basically turn him down...) and he was sorry and all the normal crap. He did ask if I was looking up legal separation and I told him yes I was because I can't do this again and I don't deserve it but I love him and don't want to separate.

That was the basic gist. Later I started talking to him about his needs, etc, basically paving the way to MB principles (ok, I didn't demand to use MB here like I should have, big 2x4 coming for that I know...). He went on about not knowing his needs, he likes attention but wants to be left alone, blah blah blah. I agree, attention is a huge need for him. I tried to tell him my needs, need for affection especially. One thing he did mention, and I own, is that he feels second to my electronics (tablet, smartphone, etc). I'm ADD and so things like that keep my attention much more than they should. I told him I will own that and keep working on it. He said that I said that before, and I told him he was right, but I'm also not perfect and can only try my hardest. I tried to get him to talk more but he was getting agitated and it was late and I didn't want to push the issue more (I can see Scotty's face right now... ) ...

So, continuing on, I knew his workload was slow yesterday so I asked him to come with me on a drive, as I had an interview for a job in a city about 2 hours away, where we both want to move to. He did. I made sure unless absolutely necessary that I didn't start playing with my electronics. The only time he was alone was during my interview (No VAR was set up though...)

During the evening, he was very affectionate, I stayed off my electronics. He even showed me emails of his without me asking (like it matters at this point, he knows I'm snooping. But at least he chose to do that himself...)

I haven't asked him to be completely honest about the past A, especially if there was more than what I already know. This is my fault, but it's hard for me to ask that question. I myself for not being willing enough to step up and ask that. I guess I'm afraid of LB'ing, but at the same time, radical honesty, right?

I'm still snooping, though not paying as much attention to emails because he knows I'm watching them. I'm watching for a second email address; can't get a keylogger because I honestly have no $$ for it, but I'm trying to save up for it; I have my VAR in place any time I'm not home with him, as that would be the most likely time he would start something, skype-chat, etc. I'm 99% sure he doesn't know about it because I know him and he would NOT be happy with that, to put it nicely.

So, that's the update, friends. I'll keep ya'll posted when I can...

Instead of exposure, right?

I wish you the best of luck.

Ok, wait. Now I'm getting conflicting advice...


I specifically asked about confrontation.

cd, Pepperband made the suggestion to EXPOSE first. Did you read that?

It is not a lovebuster to ask your spouse to be honest about his affairs. It is a non-negotiable condition.

What has changed here other than you told him he has no boundaries? I don't see how anything has changed?


He is not serious about this at all. He has had multiple affairs and he bemoans that "he can't have friends?" He just doesn't care.

My WW bemoaned the EP's this weekend. I feel controlled, I can't even go to the store by myself, I wanted orange juice the other day and couldn't even stop for it, blah, blah, blah. After I called the Waaaambulance, my response was, "I need you to start showing some care for what my heart has been through and stop worrying about what you cant do. In time you'll get your orange juice but not until you help rebuild some of the trust that you ripped from me". She stopped complaining for now.

They are so foggy. You MUST be in control of this. It'll be harder now because it's happened before. If the EPs are not extremely strict you will not be safe in the marriage. It WILL happen again and again and again. He will not have your best interests in mind for years. You will have to look out for yourself until he can build some boundaries that make you safe. Until then, it's your boundaries or the hi-way...

Thats just my opinion of course

Yes I read that. And no I didn't. Because I either misunderstood or whatever.

Call it or whatever, though I'm not trying to be, but I think I am just going to excuse myself from here. I obviously don't get it and am not willing to waste others' time for that, when I know what other BS's are going through and need help more than me.

I am grateful to all who have been willing to give me advice over the past few years. Thank you.

CD (ABR)

Don't leave cd. You need this advice more than you ever have. You need the strength and support that come from the vets here.

Stop doing that.
If you leave the forum, it's because you choose to leave.

Right. But now that it's been clarified, instead of exposing, you are leaving?

cd, what I thought as I read through all of your past threads is that you are an ENABLER. You make excuses for your H and you let things get swept under the rug that need to be dealt with (such as the online dating profile you found hidden on his computer or getting to the bottom of his past affair/s).

The fact that you won't expose confirms it.

And you keep telling him with your actions that what he is doing is OK. In fact, you reward his wayward behavior by Plan A'ing him. Do you know what that is going to do to a entitled wayward mindset?

I predict more affairs in your future - he's just going to get better at hiding it

Have you seen this?
Conflict Avoidance is the Kiss of Death

cd, i know you'll be reading, so what i want to say is that although you didn't expose, you could now.

You're not new to this, so you aren't getting the usual new BS treatment.

If you leave here, what is it that you are going to do? You going to let your WH get away with his affairs over and over again? What do YOU want? How are you going to accomplish that?

Do a bit of an exercise, like the one I have done at work. What is your endgoal? What things would you need to do to get there? THink it out, and write it here.

Cd, I know how you feel with so much being thrown at you. I was in your shoes once. You feel like the rug has been pulled out from under you and now everyone is telling you to do something and your so afraid of doing something wrong. In fact, I remember getting so upset with Scotland (bless her heart) because I just felt so overwhelmed by everything.

But inaction is not going to get you anywhere. So take a deep breath, go back to page one here and do things as you see them. Once you see the path you are on, you'll stop stumbling in the dark, ok?

~RQ

I want to apologize, first off. I was frustrated and confused when I left. It was rude of me, though I was sincere when I said I felt others could be helped more than me. Two things have brought me here again:

A. Scotty is right, I did of course continue to lurk around (dern you Scotty!) - this forum has been my sanity. I realized as I wrote an email to a younger collegiate student (who basically crabbed at me that I was being disrespectful to her and others in my recent emails, and that I should read them before sending, etc.) that you cannot convey tone in an email. Same is for here. You cannot convey tone. The tone I was reading in my head was likely not the tone it was meant to be said at.

B. SusieQ is right. I'm an enabler. I realized this the other morning. I do everything I can to make my H happy, and when (as H actually pointed out) I feel threatened, I go into overdrive...

I've been trying all week to try and ask about the past A. It's been on the tip of my tongue for days.... but I can't do it. I can't say those words: "I need you to tell me all that happened with OW." and "I need you to tell me why you decided to write that profile thingy, even if it never got posted."

BTW, his one-sided A, if you can even call it that, is over. Verified by snooping and VAR. She cut him off. No, never exposed, and yes, I'll get some 2X4's for that, but I guess I don't see if it was never really anything to begin with, why I need to. Again, call me an enabler, but I'm being honest.

I'm worried about trying to present MB to him, yes, because he doesn't believe in the principles - because of him being poisoned by OW. He's never given it a chance. I did print out some of the questionnaires on LB's and needs, just afraid for whatever reason to give him it.

I don't know. I just know I need help, and you all are the only ones I can go to for this and not be told to just divorce him and move on....

Given where you are today, what would you have to lose by giving him the questionnaires? If your M is over, then it's over. Giving him the ENQs wont make it more over. It might, however, make it not over. So again, whats to lose?

Ummm, CD. It is not poisoning by OW that makes your H disinterested in MB. If he were to follow MB principles, he would have to change significantly. He would have to become open and honest, give up independent behavior and a secret second life, follow the policy of joint agreement. There are no incentives to do so, so why would he? He plans on doing whatever he likes for as long as he likes.

AM

I want you to DIVORCE your old habits and change to an MB plan.

The problem with conflict avoiders in a marriage is that they run AWAY from intimacy as fast as their little "give 'till it hurts" Giver legs can carry them.

Tell me something, if you can. What desire for intimacy is demonstrated in the following statement ... "I can't say these words" ...


Tell me how the following shows your drive to achieve intimacy ???


If you do not change and become conflict tolerant, you will have a very unhappy life.

Cd,

Maybe you shouldn�t be the one to try to sell him on this. Being an enabler the minute he begins to push back I suspect you�ll just drop it and call it a lost cause.

What is your H�s current mindset? Does he feel there are things in the M that need to change?

Regardless of what HE wants maybe you could do something you want. Why don�t you consider signing up for some counseling with Steve or Jennifer so that they can help you implement practices that will help you become more radically honest with your H. This is definitely an LB on your part and something you will need to fix, if your M or any other M you may have in the future, is ever going to be healthy.

Signing up yourself will help you clean up your side of the street.

And as an added bonus it is quite possible that will be your avenue to get H on board. Sell him on the benefit you will get which will benefit him. Steve and/or Jennifer can help you in getting H involved. They will do a better job of selling this to him. Showing him what is in it for him.

I should add that becoming conflict tolerant opens the door to possible intimacy.

Read every link

Cd, my advice remains the same. You will never have a marriage until you take a stand like I described below. It is not negotiable.

You admit that you are an enabler in one breath and then in the next, you justify it? Your second quote tells me that you don't see how much your enabling has played a role in the state of your M now.

Without exposure, I don't see any hope for your sitch.

Not only would you be missing out on all the regular benefits of exposure (reality for the WS, protection by him having many eyes on him, additional support, etc) but it would be a good first step for you in breaking this terrible habit...

Earlier in the thread:



But now this is "never really anything to begin with"?

cd, I find it SHOCKING that you would describe your H's behavior in this way.

It DOES NOT matter that this did not rise to the level of a full-blown PA. He knows how badly he hurt you and your M -- and he goes out of his way to try to make it happen again. This is much worse than a typical A. Much worse IMO.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2376705&page=1

Your post from a thread from three years ago. I read through and you ignored the advice that you got there as well -- that you were setting the bar too low, accepting crumbs, etc. You even let your WH continue to post on a message board where the OW was despite ML calling you out on that.

I point this out not to 2x4 you -- but hopefully to wake you up. You want us to help you come up with more short-term solutions and refuse to look at the big picture.

Where has that led you?

Your M is worse off now than it was before. He has never given up his SSL; he hurt you and violated your M again and again since that post, and because you have enabled and positively reinforced his bad behavior, he will continue -- he will just do a better job of hiding it.

On top of all that, you seem more willing today than you did three years ago to put up with his wayward ways!

This is really really hard for me as a BS of a serial cheater to watch...

Case in point:

I bumped a thread that I think would be a good read for you. Here's a piece of it:

This one too on how to create serial cheaters:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2718153#Post2718153