Well, it will be long and ugly....
I am originally from Europe and for most of my high school years I was on national junior judo team. At the beginning of my senior year I decided to contact a few universities in the U.S. to see if I could get an athlete scholarship to continue my education. I have always had a thing for America so I was ecstatic to hear that they all were interested in me. I selected my dream collage, graduated with honors, and repaid them with a lot of ippons.
Me - 33
Wife - 32
Married for 3 years
I guess I could say that for us it was love from the first sight. We dated for two years and got married three years ago. Until recently we had a really great marriage. She has been a really great wife.... until she cheated.
A year ago I accepted a very well paying job which requires me to travel to another city every week. I am usually gone for 2 ~ 5 days. I discussed it with my wife and she reluctant agreed. I had a good job before but the idea of accepting a new one was that it was paying almost double. I thought I would work for two years save enough money and start my full time career as an artist. I am an accomplished sami-amatuer painter.
In January my wife run into two of her female friends from high school. She hadn't seen them for years. They all were glad to see each other again and exchanged numbers. The problem is they both are wild girls jumping from one relationship to another. They change guys like gloves.
A few days later, when I was gone, she went with them to some bar they frequent and met some of their friends. Among them was some handsome dude who started hitting on her a bit. My wife is an attractive woman so it wasn't the first time someone was doing it but she admits there was sexual attraction between them. She left after a few hours.
The following week she did the same thing, when I was working at another city, and the guy was there again and started to hit on her a bit more. When she was leaving he asked her for a telephone number but she didn't give him.
Crossing the line....
Two weeks later one of her female friends celebrated job promotion so she invited my wife. Well, my wife usually doesn't drink too much.... a drink or two at most. But that evening she had quite a few. The handsome dude was there too and they ended up having sex at his place.
The following evening she him message on FB that the night before was a terrible mistake and it cannot happen again. He replied that he was really hurt that she felt that way and suggested that perhaps something was missing in her marriage if she decided to do it. She responded that the marriage was fine and that she was utterly disgusted witherself that she could do something like that. The guy if she didn't like the experience. She brushed it off by saying that they both were drunk. A little later he asked again and pressed for more direct answer. Her answer was that considering how drunk they both were it wasn't that bad.
It was a long message exchange and they decided to meet next day for a drink and talk face to face. They did. talked, and he wanted her to go to his place again. She refused. They kissed outside at the parking lot and decided to continue talking some more on FB.
A week later they met again and had an hour long make up session in his car. Kissing and touching but no sex. They were in contact by phone and on FB all the time but it wasn't anything that excessive.
When it is getting really disgusting....
This is the part that my wife is struggling the most. Actually it breaks her completely. A week later they went together to some bar to hung out with his friends. My wife had both, her wedding and engagement ring, off. Like boyfriend and girlfriend. They both got drunk and ended up at his place having sex again.
The next day, after sending him a message that she would never see him again, they had a very lengthy, emotionally charged but civil message exchange. Basically, she told him that she only loves her husband and doesn't want anyone else. She didn't understand how she could all those things she had done and expressed her utter disgust for herself for destroying her marriage.
Apparently that dude has some feeling for her and was hurt. She was tring to get some advice from him how to tell me about it but he couldn't offer anything sensible. At the end she told him that it was last time they were talking and that she doesn't want him to contact her under any circumstances. All that was five weeks ago.
D-day
This week I had to go way for only two days and I told my wife I would be back on Wednesday around noon. Upon my return I was surprised to find my wife at home. She hugged stronger and longer then usually when I asked if everything was O.K. she started uncontrollably crying. When I asked what happen she whispered.... I am whore. I am worthless whore.
To make long story short she told me about everything begging me for forgive her. She showed me all FB messages and gave full access to her phone and everything I saw fully corroborates her story. She cut off the affair 5 weeks ago and never talked to him again. He tried to call her twice but she never answered. She was crying on and off the whole day and fell a sleep around 2 AM.
I couldn't sleep at all and in the morning (around 5 AM) purchased on line an airplane ticket for myself to go to Europe on 29th to visit my family after what happen. I knew that taking a week off at work wouldn't be a problem at all at this time of the year. I printed e-ticket and left it on my desk. I had to go to work for a few hours and whan I was leaving she was still sleeping so I couldn't tell her anything my plan.
When my wife saw the ticket she was pretty certain that I was leaving her. She called her mother and told her about the affair and that I am leaving her. My wife was crying so bad that her mother left her work and came to see her. On her way to our place she called me and I went home. My wife was a real mess. My mother-in-law, being in a total shock, pulled some strings and scheduled an appointment with one of the top psychiatrist in Chicago on the same day which isn't possible under normal circumstances. I drove my wife there and I have to admit there was a huge difference an hour later.
So here I am.... it is almost 6:15 AM and I didn't sleep even one minute. I cannot sleep, I cannot eat. I am not the same person anymore.
Welcome sorry you are here.
First question, and it is important.
What do you want to do?
Not married very long. I see no mention of children.
Recovery is possible, even very likely if you and she follow Dr. Harley's plans.
Notice I didn't say easy. Looks like you wife has very poor boundaries.
Just quickly I would say.
You need to change jobs.
She must disassociate many all her "friends."
Change all the phone numbers.
Many more.
You in for it?
Welcome, Opiel.
Ditto what Herb said. Of course, your travelling job has to end. Today. Travelling jobs are nightmares on marriages, as you have found.
Your wife doesn't need the help of a psychiatrist. She needs to woman up and help you heal from this horrific atrocity she has committed against you. Actions to atone and clean up this mess are what will help her.
Your is a short marriage. It took her no time at all for your wife to give herself permission to cheat on you. You have no children. No one would blame you if you chose to end this marriage with a woman who has shown you that she will cheat on you at her first opportunity.
However, if you wish to recover with her, there are some immediate actions the two of you will need to take:
Quit your travelling job.
Your wife needs to cancel her FB account.
She needs to change her phone number today.
No more nights out with her girlfriends; as a matter of fact, she needs to dump those 'friends' entirely. They are not friends of your marriage, so they have no place in either of your lives.
The chance is very good that you will be reeling and recovering from this disaster for years longer than you've even been married. Recovery is difficult and is not for the weak. Whether or not you choose to undertake this difficult task is up to you, but if you do decide to I would suggest you buy the book Surviving an Affair by Dr. Harley, the owner of this site. You can buy the book in the bookstore here, or on Amazon.
Mmmherb & maritalbliss,
Thank you both for your response and since your posts are similar I will answer them in one single post. Let's start with clearing up a few things.
No, we don't have children.
Up to the point when all those things started happening I couldn't ask for a better wife. We never set any boundaries in our relationship because up to now because it wasn't ever necessary.... there was no need for it. We both were responsible, thoughtful, and considerate of one another. Of course, over 5 years of being together, there were a few little incidents on both sides but they were purely innocent and not worth of arguing about.
Like I said above my wife doesn't drink too much even when we are out... she will have a drink or two at most. She doesn't need alcohol to feel good or relax.
She doesn't seem to like to go out on her own. Since we were together she has gone on girls night out about 10 ~ 15 times. Occasionally she will go out with her co-workers to some bar but doesn't stay late. I know those people and whenever I am home I am welcome to go with them.
Because of her look and her personality she gets a lot of attention from men. No surprise here. Apparently, up to this point she was able to handle it very well.... her moral compass was exactly where it should have been.
Now, the hard question.... what do I want to do?
I don't know and I am not ready to decide it right now. One thing is clear - despite what has happened we are still in love with each other. Yes, my wife still loves me and I can see that. She doesn't need me in her life.... she wants me. Financially she doesn't need to lean on me because she has a good, well paying job and she would be fine on her own. Finding some else wouldn't be a problem at all.... she has already proved that.
She hasn't been in contact with her two female friends for about 6 weeks. They tried to call her several times but she ignored their calls every time. She has no intention to meet them again.
She is absolutely willing to close her FB and change her telephone number if I ask her to do it but doesn't feel it is really necessary. She has no desire to contact or see those two female friends or the guy.
However, I strongly disagree with that she doesn't need therapy.... she does. She doesn't understand why she has done all those things. She has never cheated on anyone so why now with so much to lose? It wasn't the first time she felt attracted to someone, it happens to all of us from time to time and there is nothing wrong with it, but why did she decided to cross the line this time. I can see how disgusted she is with herself about what happened.
I will definitively order the book. Of course, any advice is helpful.
Well, not deciding too quickly is probably a good thing.
If you want advice here, it will be of one kind only. That is Dr. Harley and MB. You have already about 5 times told us that you don't think you agree with it.
This place has plans to follow. If you want to follow another plan or your own, there is not much advice about them. We don't know them.
You just told the story about how your wife violated her boundaries twice even when she was "Trying to resist" and yet balk at removing avenues and conduits that would make those things possible again.
Your rationalizations sound like the old joke: "Well, other than that one thing, how did you enjoy the play Mrs. Lincoln?"
Therapy to get "in touch" generally is a bunch of navel gazing that keep a person focused on the problems rather than moving towards change. Change is what is needed, not understanding how not to change and keep it from happening.
If you don't change the environment that allowed this to happen, on both sides, then it can and in my opinion, likely will happen again. She feels like a whore now (her words). In a few years when she is bored and alone, what then?
what do I want to do? I don't know and I am not ready to decide it right now.
Keep that thought. Do your self a favor, and commit to NOT making any life-changing decisions for about six months.
Sadly, she is going to have to schedule a complete set of STD screens for both of you - now and likely in a couple months.
She is going to have to forego going out without you. "Only 12 - 15 times in 3 years? Dude, I've been married almost 40 years and I would doubt Bride has been "out" without me more than 6 time!
You will probably have to consider changing to a non-travelling job.
She should be writing a No-Contact letter, in her hand, giving it to you for review and mailing. to POSOM.
Given the methodology of the situation, she should be writing NCLs to her whore-friends, as well.
You sound like a nice guy. Let me warn you that in terms of enforcing new rules for her behavior, that will have to change!
We never set any boundaries in our relationship because up to now because it wasn't ever necessary.... there was no need for it.
Sure, it was necessary. You're both humans. Humans are wired for affairs. It is necessary to affair-proof a marriage to ensure that there is no avenue open for an affair. You had no boundaries. Having boundaries is critical to the health of a marriage. It's always been necessary in your marriage, and there would have been no affair had boundaries been firmly in place. You don't wait to get hit by a car to know that it's a good idea to stay out of the road.
Like I said above my wife doesn't drink too much even when we are out... she will have a drink or two at most. She doesn't need alcohol to feel good or relax.
I hope you're not blaming the alcohol for your wife's poor choice. I'm concerned that you are laying the blame on their sex act by the fact that she had too much to drink. I fully believe that she had too much to drink in order to give herself permission to behave in a despicable way: "I couldn't help it! It was the mojitos!" No, that doesn't wash. Especially considering that she revisited the scene of the crime (OM) shortly after. Sober.
Because of her look and her personality she gets a lot of attention from men.
I also suggest that you not be distracted by her physical appearance. To me this sounds like "She can't help it! She's gorgeous! Men can't help themselves!" No, there are plenty of women of average looks who are eyeballs-deep in affairs because their lack of boundaries communicated to a man that they were willing. Conversely, there are many very attractive women on this site alone, as well as in healthy, protected marriages everywhere, who are never approached for sex from strange men. Their boundaries protect them. Lack of boundaries + opportunity. Those are the two things that are common in affairs. Not looks. So please don't factor in her looks.
She is absolutely willing to close her FB and change her telephone number if I ask her to do it but doesn't feel it is really necessary. She has no desire to contact or see those two female friends or the guy.
You are missing the point. She needs to shut dwn her FB and change her number for two reasons: 1. As a measure of respect and commitment to you. 2. She may be sincerely remorseful right now, like an alcoholic who has sincerely sworn off drinking or any other new convert. But leaving those avenues for contact with OM open is like keeping alcohol on the counter in front of an alcoholic. Why would you want to see her in a position of temptation like that? What happens when you're out of town, she's feeling lonely and neglected, and then suddenly OM messages her? Why place either of you in a position of having to deal with that?
However, I strongly disagree with that she doesn't need therapy.... she does. She doesn't understand why she has done all those things.
Save your money. Your wife has been engaging in independent behavior while you are away. You said yourself that neither of you had boundaries in place to protect your marriage. She had an opportunity and took it. It's pretty simple and doesn't require a shrink. Again, I think the two of you are looking for reasons to blame anything and anyone other than your wife and your lack of protection for your marriage.
You are certainly right to take your time to decide your next steps. FWIW, I think the two of you can recover from this. But both of you need to understand the nature of affairs: how they happen, who is susceptible and how to avoid them. You can do this best by reading the articles here and Surviving an Affair.
I am sorry that you are experiencing this, as did I almost 8 months ago. After reading your situation you must insist that the proper boundaries are put in place to protect your marriage.
YOU must also be willing to behave in the same manner you wish your wife too from now forward. Going out alone is a huge invitation for others to intrude on you and your wife's relationship.
If you think of your marriage of a relationship of extreme care, then you would easily see why much of your behavior puts your relationship with your wife at risk.
Think about it.....hey honey, I will only be out of town for five days, you go ahead and go out with your girlfriends (the ones that have no sense of commitment) indulge in drinking to alter you mind, dress nice to show off your looks and when another male notices you, make sure you honor our vows.
Many women will be able to, many won't...it was an affair waiting for a place to happen.
Your wife needs to guard her heart for the only man in her life.....you! She needs to avoid conversing with persons of the opposite sex because she cares about YOU....she can't depend on vows, commitment or trust alone, you and her both need to protect yourself from situations that pose a threat to your love for each other.
My wife was on FB when she first engaged in conversation with the OM. My outlook...FB is for single people looking to socialize because they don't have a marriage to occupy there time. I call it "flirt book".
My wife agreed to shut down FB forever due to her affair. She changed her cell phone number and we are moving out of the area to avoid chances of running into the OM during our daily activities.
I can tell you this is not an easy road, not for the weak at heart...if you listen to the people on this site and surround yourself with Dr. Harley's material, you have a great chance of having a happy marriage.
Your wife's main job is to protect you and make you feel safe to love her after she launched a grenade at your heart.
Your job is to meet her needs, whatever those end up being. I would bet being out of town without her made her feel that your main priorty was money...all the money in the world won't meet your wife's top needs....
Sorry to be tough on you, but I am living this, and if you don't meet your wife's needs and she doesn't protect her heart when your not there, this will only happen again....
Also a word about therapists not in tune with this program.
1. The guy my wife had an affair with was in "therapy" when he had his second affair with my wife.
2. When I began to discover my wife's affair she started to meet with a therapist trying to understand why she did what she did. I went to one session with her, and I told the therapist that I was following a program by Dr. H and wished my wife to take a polygraph because I thought she may be holding back some of the truth. The therapist told me that he did not think it was nessasary and if I thought it was, then I should take one as well. The therapist agreed with my wife that she had told me the truth and I would be pleased with the results of a polygraph.
The end result, my wife was lieing to both the therapist and me the entire time and she came clean days before the polygraph test to the extent of the affair.
However, I strongly disagree with that she doesn't need therapy.... she does. She doesn't understand why she has done all those things.
Hi Opie, you are getting good advice here, but I wanted to comment on the above. You can save yourself a trip to the "therapist." We will tell you for FREE why she had an affair: she has pisspoor boundaries around men and cats around like an alley cat in heat. She has the lifestyle of a single woman and only did what single women do: cat around with men.
Like Dr Harley, a clinical psychologist and specialist in recovering marriages from infidelity says:
An analysis of the wayward spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them.
..going to therapy is distracting and unnecessary.
She doesn't need therapy in the first place and in the second place, you run the risk of being told to "separate" by the therapist. We have 2 cases just this weekend who were told by "therapists" to separate. That bad advice may well spell the end of their marriages. Therapists are destructive to marriages and don't have the slightest idea how to save a marriage. They have an 84% failure rate and a higher personal divorce rate than the general population. If an ignorant therapist tells your wife to separate from you, it will be very hard to undo that bad advice.
If you want to save your marriage, you need to clean up your lifestyles and start putting your marriage FIRST, instead of last. STOP traveling, stop going out without each other, stay out of bars, delete facebook and start acting like married people. That's IF you want to save your marriage. If you don't, just keep living like you have and I promise there will be more affairs.
When you get hit by a car playing chicken, the solution is to get out of the road.
Traveling jobs are an invitation to affairs:
Anything that takes one spouse away from the other overnight is an invitation for an affair. But when an opposite-sex co-worker tends to join a spouse on business trips, red flags should be flying in all directions. Any evidence that this relationship is anything more than pure business is, from my perspective, a gigantic clue that an affair might be in progress. That's also the case if a spouse and opposite-sex co-worker spend a great deal of time working together.
We are all wired to have an affair. We can all fall in love with someone of the opposite sex if that person meets one of our emotional needs. If you don't think it can happen to you because of your conviction or will-power, you are particularly vulnerable to an affair. And if you think your spouse would never have an affair, you are also vulnerable.
Look what happened to poor Kathy Lee Gifford. She stated publicly and wrote in one of her books that she trusted her husband completely, that he would never cheat on her. But she should not have trusted her husband. If she would have taken the steps she is now taking to help him avoid another affair, the first would never have taken place, and she would have avoided all its pain and embarrassment. I don't trust my wife completely and she doesn't trust me, and that's why neither of us have ever had an affair. Lack of trust does not make spouses paranoid and miserable, it makes their marriages safe.
One topic is loss of trust. How can a spouse ever trust an unfaithful partner again? My answer is that the spouse should never have been trusted in the first place. I shouldn't be trusted by my wife, and I shouldn't trust her. The fact is that we are all wired for infidelity, and under certain conditions, we'll all do it. The way to protect your marriage from something that has been common to man (and women) for thousands of years is to recognize the threat, and do something to prevent it from happening. Basing a marriage on the Policy of Radical Honesty and the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward preventing an affair. Being each other's favorite leisure-time companions, and not being away from each other overnight are also important safety measures. Meeting each other's most important emotional needs, avoiding Love Busters and building an integrated lifestyle, free of secret second lives, are all ways to affair-proof your marriage. With these measures in place, we end up trusting our spouses because an affair becomes almost impossible to achieve.
A year ago I accepted a very well paying job which requires me to travel to another city every week. I am usually gone for 2 ~ 5 days. I discussed it with my wife and she reluctant agreed.
The problem is they both are wild girls jumping from one relationship to another. They change guys like gloves.
she went with them to some bar they frequent and met some of their friends. Among them was some handsome dude who started hitting on her a bit.
but she admits there was sexual attraction between them. She left after a few hours.
The following week she did the same thing,
when I was working at another city,
the guy was there again and started to hit on her a bit more.
Well, my wife usually doesn't drink too much.... a drink or two at most. But that evening she had quite a few. The handsome dude was there too and they ended up having sex at his place.
The following evening she him message on FB...
...It was a long message exchange and they decided to meet next day for a drink and talk face to face. They did. talked, and he wanted her to go to his place again. She refused. They kissed outside at the parking lot
and decided to continue talking some more on FB.
A week later they met again and had an hour long make up session in his car. Kissing and touching but no sex.
They were in contact by phone and on FB all the time but it wasn't anything that excessive.
A week later they went together to some bar to hung out with his friends. My wife had both, her wedding and engagement ring, off. Like boyfriend and girlfriend. They both got drunk and ended up at his place having sex again.
The next day, after sending him a message that she would never see him again, they had a very lengthy, emotionally charged but civil message exchange.
opiel. Your wife has poor boundaries. That is why she had an affair. You don't need a therapist to tell you that and in fact a therapist will spend thousand of dollars rehashing old wounds and making your wife angry about everything that has ever happened in the past.
Your wife may even end up feeling entitled after therapy.
You cannot change the past...you can only control what you do going forward. The solution is to change her behaviour going forward and to set boundaries to protect your marriage.
You both need to live integrated and transparent lives that would make a secret second life impossible.
If you would like professional help, I strongly recommend Marriage Builder counseling. They will teach you how to rebuild the trust and romantic love. That is what you need to focus on right now. It requires no contact for LIFE with OM and the toxic friends. You also will need to quit the traveling job and expose the affair. Those are the first steps.
My wife agreed to shut down FB forever due to her affair. She changed her cell phone number and we are moving out of the area to avoid chances of running into the OM during our daily activities.
Oh, KGaa, thank you for bringing this up. Opiel, you and your wife also need to look at moving away from the scene of the crime, for a few reasons:
1. You will be triggered when she is gone for any length of time; did she run into OM and they're having drinks and getting 'caught up'?
2. If you believe your WW is earnest, you need to get her away from any potential run-ins with OM, which would be of great distress to her. IF she is earnest. (Side note: if she is truly earnest, she will embrace the idea of getting away from any potential contact with OM. If she says "Oh, I can't possibly consider moving because blah blah blah"
That's a huge red flag that she is not sincere in her remorse.
Also send the NC letter after you approve it's content... The OM, who is married, told my wife to reach out to him if your marriage doesn't work out.
You want to ensure this A is ended in the proper way. Not some kiss, kiss, version they might of had. My wife admitted later down the road that she ended her A in a casual, "well sorry we can no longer talk but it was nice, see ya around".
Verse...a no contact letter that was later sent saying...what I did was a major fault of mine and hurt my spouse...stay away and never contact me in any way shape or form.
I snooped around after that letter was sentvand I still have my checks and balances in place to watch my wife until she rebuilds her trust. Your wife will not care if you have safeguards in place to check on her if she wants you to heal and trust her again.
I am set to move, even though only 40-45 min from here, it is important to be able to go places such as the grocery store, gas station ect...without triggers and chance sightings.
I hope you understand the seriousness of what it takes to heal..some examples..
1. Had to sell 2 cars that my wife met OM in.
2. Sold brand new house wife and I built in order to relocate.
3. Wife threw out any and all clothes that may have come in contact with OM.
4. Wife took and passed polygraph.
5. wife saw her Dr., admitted to her A, and submitted to STD testing.
This is not an all inclusive list, but you will find it very hard to heal if your wife doesn't agree to help do whatever possible to get this from triggering your mind.
Also stay on this site as you work through this. It will be your best tool to whatever you decide to do.
NeverGuessed, maritalbliss, KGaa12, MelodyLane, pokerface.... THANK YOU. I come here looking for advice based on objectivity and well reasoned responses from people who are/were going through the same experience and you delivered.
Please don't get a wrong impression that I am looking for excuses for her actions. It isn't the case at all and the chances that our marriage will soon end in divorce are very high. After all, my wife may not be who I thought she was, and our marriage may not be what I thought it was. It's a hard truth to accept.
However, I still don't think that rushing to making a decision whether to end it all or give it another try would be a good idea at this point.
The end result, my wife was lieing to both the therapist and me the entire time and she came clean days before the polygraph test to the extent of the affair.
KGaa12, please don't take it in any wrong way.... apparently I don't know the situation but why did you decide to give her another chance after all that laying? I am just trying to understand.
KGaa12, please don't take it in any wrong way.... apparently I don't know the situation but why did you decide to give her another chance after all that laying? I am just trying to understand.
Lying goes hand in hand with infidelity. Every other cheater here lied and lied, so that is the rule rather than the exception. Some do it so long that they end up destroying their marriages. Oddly, most people can recover from the affair, it is the continued lying that gets them.
One way we get all the truth out in one fell swoop is advise people to insist their spouses take a polygraph. It is a great tool in that it clears the air and reassures the BS. It allows them to move forward in their recovery.
KGaa can speak for himself, but in knowing his situation, I can see why he gave her another chance. He has a long history with her, a great marriage in the past, children, and he has her commitment to change her lifestyle and recover the marriage. He researched the issue and found that it is very possible to recover and end up with a great marriage at the end. He is well on that road now.
O,
MB gives people hope in even the worst case scenarios of recovering their marriage. Following MB shows people not only how to recovery their marriage after infidelity but how to take the steps to make it stronger and forever affair proof it.
Even the biggest liars (myself included) can come out of the fog and see the harm in their lying and deceptive ways using MB.
I am happy you and your wife have found this site and encourage both of you to dive in. Work the program and then you can decide if your marriage is worth saving.
MelodyLane,
I know that lying goes hand in hand with infidelity. The funny thing in our case is that I don't recall her ever "directly" lying to me about her affair.... it was all lying by omission. Not that it makes any difference but technically she just wasn't telling me about things she was doing when I was gone. Of course, all that makes me feel really special.
Polygraph test isn't necessary in our case.... she told me the whole truth from the beginning. She has taken full responsibility for her affair saying.... "he was making advances, I could stop it but I didn't." She has been blaming herself only and never tried to minimaze or hide anything about what happend. FB messages, they exchanged, corraborate her story 100%.
Yhe only question about her affair, she didn't answer, was why she had done it in the first place.
Fifteenyears,
Thanks for your replay. The more I think about it, the more I think about just getting divorced and moving on. What I am struggling the most with is why she did it having so much to lose. It wasn't just a drunk impuls, she had enough time to think about what she was doing.
My wife is getting rather bad wrap on this forum and she deserves every word of it. However, I know her well enough to say that she isn't a liar by nature and she wouldn't be able to keep her affair secret too long.... it would be eating her alive and sooner or later she would confese. And she knows that too. So why?
Was it supposed to an exit affair? If she wanted to get divorced she could just tell me that she wasn't happy and I would have let her go. No need to ruin her reputation. Her parents and sister are absolutely devastated by what she has done.
The funny thing in our case is that I don't recall her ever "directly" lying to me about her affair.... it was all lying by omission. Not that it makes any difference
Correct. It doesn't make any difference. A lie is a lie is a lie.
Polygraph test isn't necessary in our case.... she told me the whole truth from the beginning.
As far as you know. You are trusting her to have told you the whole truth. Like you trusted her to be faithful to you.
Yhe only question about her affair, she didn't answer, was why she had done it in the first place.
Do you understand yet "why" she did it? Please tell me that you aren't sitting back and waiting for some profound psychological reason behind her decision to cheat on you. BECAUSE THERE ISN'T ONE.
My wife is getting rather bad wrap on this forum and she deserves every word of it. However, I know her well enough to say that she isn't a liar by nature and she wouldn't be able to keep her affair secret too long.... it would be eating her alive and sooner or later she would confese. And she knows that too. So why?
Opie, you might know your wife, but you don't know waywards. WE DO. Your wife had to deceive you in order to have an affair. Whether she did that via an outright lie or a smoke signal or a lie of ommission, she was deceptive. And you don't know if she would have confessed. If she were really honest she wouldn't have been sneaking around having an affair in the first place.
And we know why she had the affair. I explained that in my previous post. It is no great secret. She has poor boundaries and lives a wild, singles lifestyle. AND her husband travels. Those are all the reasons she had the affair. Change the environment and you will change your marriage.
Fifteenyears,
Thanks for your replay. The more I think about it, the more I think about just getting divorced and moving on. What I am struggling the most with is why she did it having so much to lose. It wasn't just a drunk impuls, she had enough time to think about what she was doing.
Ooh O,
You are going through the roller coaster of emotions that everyone connected to an A goes through. That bad news is that there is no good reason for having an affair. The fact is, Dr. H says that everyone is wired to have an affair. Are there some people that can put themselves in certain situations and not be tempted by an affair? Yes. However, there are so many more of us that can't do that. Your wife put herself in a situation where an Affair was highly likely. She did this on more than one occasion. Add the absence of her H, alcohol, and friends with little to no boundaries and it is the perfect formula for an affair. No, you don't think about what you are doing, that is the extremely sad part. You are willing to give up everything for this destructive moment in time. This is not an excuse for what your wife has done, but instead the ugly reality of affairs and what having low boundaries and independent behavior in a marriage will cause.
My wife is getting rather bad wrap on this forum and she deserves every word of it. However, I know her well enough to say that she isn't a liar by nature and she wouldn't be able to keep her affair secret too long.... it would be eating her alive and sooner or later she would confese. And she knows that too. So why?
Yes, your wife along with every wayward spouse (including myself) get a bad wrap. People on here are not necessarily trying to give her a bad wrap but showing you the reality of the situation. They are trying to show you your future if you and your wife continue to go on in your current marriage.
You are more than welcome to divorce your wife. Her affair is enough for you to leave. I do give your wife props for confessing to you what she has. Still, I can tell by your posts that you have doubt. An affair will do that. That is why it is so strongly being suggested that you get a poly. Just to be 100% sure that she has told you the entire truth.
Was it supposed to an exit affair? If she wanted to get divorced she could just tell me that she wasn't happy and I would have let her go. No need to ruin her reputation. Her parents and sister are absolutely devastated by what she has done.
That is another thing, most people who have affairs don't go into them wanting a divorce or even thinking about a divorce. In your wife's defense that was probably the last thing on her mind at the time. She did however put herself into the situation and again there are no excuses. Nothing she says or does will ever justify her past actions. It is her future actions that will determine if she truly is remorseful and willing to save your marriage (if, of course you are willing).
[color:#FF6666]That is good that you told her parents and sister. Hopefully, they can be a support system for both you and your wife.
No matter what you decide (and like you said you do not have to decide now) keep posting on this site. People are here to help you no matter what you decide. They will also help your wife if she decides to come here.[/color]
MelodyLane, maritalbliss, and fifteenyears.... thanks once again. You all are making valid points and your advice is really helpful.
I have dated a lot, I have been in a lot of relationships, before I met my future and quite likely soon ex wife. I am not naive, I know relationships and the dynamics behind them. And just like my wife gets hit on by a lot of men, I get hit on by a lot of women.... both single and married.
When we were still dating I was a victim of sexual harassment in my previous job where a my 36 year old married superviser was pursuing me very aggressively. It wasn't unusual get a text message from her at 2 AM and most of them weren't PG rated. I am in a pretty much similar situation right now but not as severe. But I am though dude so I can handle it.
MelodyLane.... you are right that I don't know much about waywards but I am not a virgin anymore either, although it isn't my choice. I agree with everything else you said.
Maritalbliss.... as far a polygraph test is concerned she is ready to take it at any time. As a matter of fact she suggested it on D-day herself when I asked her why I would believe anything she was telling me. I doubt she is hiding anything but lets assume that we take this road.... what questions would I ask? The only one which comes to my mind is asking her if it was her first time she cheated on me.
I am not really waiting for some profound psychological reason behind her decision to cheat on me. Just like you said.... she cheated because she COULD and WANTED. I just don't understand why she would risk everything. Perhaps she just doesn't value our marriage as much as she says.
Fifteenyears.... very interesting inside. Just to clear one thing.... she told her mother and sister herself. Her father learned the news from her mother. They love me like their own son and I have a great relationship with her sister. They all are devasteted by what happend.
Yhe only question about her affair, she didn't answer, was why she had done it in the first place.
There is never a good answer to why.
Though I still say best to polygraph a WS.
Harley's say there are reasons but no excuses. Have you figured out what you need to improve on? It will help you become a better person no matter the outcome.
.... what questions would I ask? The only one which comes to my mind is asking her if it was her first time she cheated on me.
That would be a very good question to ask opiel.
Betrayal is very hurtful and devastating. Pride runs deep. Everyone who is posting to you has been there and understands it with first hand experience.
You wife is one of the few who seems to be remorseful and wants to make amends. MB can give you the path to overcome the betrayal and emerge with an even stronger marriage full of romantic love and affair proofed by boundaries.
I don't know what field you are in...but it sounds like your marriage is attacked from all directions. You yourself may not be as safe as you believe. Women normally flirt with men who flirt back. Check your own side of the street. OK?
When we were still dating I was a victim of sexual harassment in my previous job where a my 36 year old married superviser was pursuing me very aggressively. It wasn't unusual get a text message from her at 2 AM and most of them weren't PG rated. I am in a pretty much similar situation right now but not as severe. But I am though dude so I can handle it.
Being a tough dude who can handle it is not going to cut it here. What have you done to stop it?
Why would a woman be pursuing you totally uninvited?
Yhe only question about her affair, she didn't answer, was why she had done it in the first place.
There is never a good answer to why.
Though I still say best to polygraph a WS.
TheRoad.... you are right saying that there is no good answer.
Interesting thing is that my wife doesn't refer to what happened as an affair. She said it was more like "whoring around" than affair (she isn't a vulgar person but this is the phrase she used). According to her an affair is something that one would enjoy and despite admitting sexual attraction toward OM and being infatuated with the whole situation, she didn't like the experience much. Perhaps that was the reason why it was so easy for her to walk away from it.
As far as polygraph is concerned, like I said before, the only sensible question which comes to my mind is asking if it was really her first time. What other questions should I ask?
Harley's say there are reasons but no excuses. Have you figured out what you need to improve on? It will help you become a better person no matter the outcome.
TranquilDark.... she isn't trying to make any excuses for what happened. Actually, she is very critical of herself.
There are lot of things we would need to change on both sides. The more I think about it, the more I agree with those posters who said that we didn't have any bondaries in our marriage and how important they are. We both were convinced that we could handle "close call" situations and today we are where we are.
We are good people.... there are good people who cheated and there are bad people who never cheated.
[quote=opiel]
You wife is one of the few who seems to be remorseful and wants to make amends. MB can give you the path to overcome the betrayal and emerge with an even stronger marriage full of romantic love and affair proofed by boundaries.
I don't know what field you are in...but it sounds like your marriage is attacked from all directions. You yourself may not be as safe as you believe. Women normally flirt with men who flirt back. Check your own side of the street. OK?
Pokerface.... my wife is genuinely remorseful and wants to make our marriage work. She realy does. Actually, she tends to believe that even if I decide to divorce her, assuming that I stay in Chicago, we will likely get back together again.
You are definitively right that our marriage has been attacked from all directions. We foolishly believed we could handle it.
I don't flirt with women. In case of my previous superviser I blame myself for going to lunch with her a few times. It was shortly after I started working there and I was under impression that she wanted to get to know me a bit as a person. Other than that we had a coffee a few times at our work place and that was all. I wasn't telling her how hot she was or anything like this. But I have to admit she was a beautiful woman.... if you take a look at pictures of J. K. Rowling from 10 years ago and you will have almost a carbon copy of her.
Harley's say there are reasons but no excuses. Have you figured out what you need to improve on? It will help you become a better person no matter the outcome.
TranquilDark.... she isn't trying to make any excuses for what happened. Actually, she is very critical of herself.
There are lot of things we would need to change on both sides. The more I think about it, the more I agree with those posters who said that we didn't have any bondaries in our marriage and how important they are. We both were convinced that we could handle "close call" situations and today we are where we are.
We are good people.... there are good people who cheated and there are bad people who never cheated.
Watch this 30 minute video.
Link to video
Well, it appears that with each passing day since D-day I am getting closer to just pulling the plug on my marriage.
When I think about my wife's "whoring adventures" I begin to realise how little I really know her after 5 years we spent together. By her own admission she was a happily married woman but in the end it wasn't enough to prevent her from cheating on me. I still shake my head in a total disbelife how selfish and thoughtless she can sometimes be.
A few days ago she told me something what I found a bit funny but also quite puzzling. She thinks that even if I decide to divorce her, we will eventually get back to gether again. According to her, each of us will likely go through one or two rebound relationships but sooner or later we will run into one another again, and when we do it will be very hard to resist falling for one another again. She thinks there is too much attraction and feeling between us.
I told her not to get her hopes too high. If we indeed get divorced it will be all said and done for me.... absolutely no chance of ever getting back together.
However, the more I think about that, the more I am getting an impression that deep down she was assuming that even if she would somehow get caught cheating she would still get a second chance. Am I imagining things here?
Opiel,
According to her, each of us will likely go through one or two rebound relationships but sooner or later we will run into one another again, and when we do it will be very hard to resist falling for one another again. She thinks there is too much attraction and feeling between us.
Wow what a cute redefinition of "cake eating" as some romantic fantasy.
God Bless
Gamma
Well, it appears that with each passing day since D-day I am getting closer to just pulling the plug on my marriage.
Tell us what you have been doing in these post D-Days. IMO, you are too early into this to be making a decision about ending your marriage if you have any desire to save it (and no one would blame you if you chose not to), but I'd like to hear what you've done to affair-proof your marriage. What have you done? Has her phone number been changed?
A few days ago she told me something what I found a bit funny but also quite puzzling. She thinks that even if I decide to divorce her, we will eventually get back to gether again.
This is her Taker talking. Her Taker was in full control during her affair. She doesn't seem to understand the injury she has caused to you. Again, what have you done to affair-proof your marriage? Have you been at home since D-Day, or are you still travelling?
However, the more I think about that, the more I am getting an impression that deep down she was assuming that even if she would somehow get caught cheating she would still get a second chance. Am I imagining things here?
No, I don't think you're imagining things. She's been engaging in independent behavior for a long time, always knowing you're there in the background. She's still picturing you there, in the background.
You need to immediately end your travelling job if you're interested in saving this marriage. Have you done so?
Gamma, right now she is just a desperate woman who foolishly gambled and lost everything.
Maritalbliss,
Tell us what you have been doing in these post D-Days. IMO, you are too early into this to be making a decision about ending your marriage if you have any desire to save it (and no one would blame you if you chose not to), but I'd like to hear what you've done to affair-proof your marriage. What have you done? Has her phone number been changed?
I have been working from the main office here in Chicago since D-day - slow time of the year. She said she would do anything I would ask her to do including taking polygraph test but I didn't ask for anything since I don't see myself staying married to her.... it is a matter of self-respect.
I am flying to Copenhagen tomorrow night to visit my family for a few days.
This is her Taker talking. Her Taker was in full control during her affair. She doesn't seem to understand the injury she has caused to you. Again, what have you done to affair-proof your marriage? Have you been at home since D-Day, or are you still travelling?
I think she has already realised how many people she has hurt.... not just me. Her sister came to visit us last night. They have been always very close so my wife takes her bery seriously. She is 39, a genuinly good, educated woman who is about to go through her second divorce. She told my wife something like this.... girl, you have no f**king idea how much worse your next marriage is going to be compared to this one.
No, I don't think you're imagining things. She's been engaging in independent behavior for a long time, always knowing you're there in the background. She's still picturing you there, in the background.
Quite likely that it might have been the case.... but not anymore. She is fully aware that our marriage is just inches away from a divorce court.
You guys are not together right now? When will you be back together?
We still live together but it has been rather quitet lately. She tried to initiate sex a few times after the D-day but I turned her down. I have to admit that it was hard thing to do.... my wife is such a beautiful woman.
We still live together but it has been rather quitet lately. She tried to initiate sex a few times after the D-day but I turned her down. I have to admit that it was hard thing to do.... my wife is such a beautiful woman.
Why is that? Are you not ready?
I just cannot look at her the same way anymore. I guess I could say that I want her now more then ever but at the same time I'm beginning to resent her more and more.
I just cannot looke at her the same way anymore. I guess I could say that I want her now more then ever but at the same time I'm beginning to resent her more and more.
Have you seen this? Listen to the clips also.
Resentment Type A and Type B
I think she has already realised how many people she has hurt.... not just me. Her sister came to visit us last night. They have been always very close so my wife takes her bery seriously. She is 39, a genuinly good, educated woman who is about to go through her second divorce. She told my wife something like this.... girl, you have no f**king idea how much worse your next marriage is going to be compared to this one.
This goes both ways opiel. You have no gurantee that the next woman will not also cheat.
There are many red flags in your own post that unless changed will always keep you at high risk of betrayal or even worse put YOU at risk of betraying and hurting those you love.
For example:
A year ago I accepted a very well paying job which requires me to travel to another city every week. I am usually gone for 2 ~ 5 days. I discussed it with my wife and she reluctant agreed.
You do not follow POJA (policy of joint agreement.)
It has also been pointed out to you many times that traveling jobs are destructive to marriages.
When we were still dating I was a victim of sexual harassment in my previous job where a my 36 year old married superviser was pursuing me very aggressively. It wasn't unusual get a text message from her at 2 AM and most of them weren't PG rated. I am in a pretty much similar situation right now but not as severe. But I am though dude so I can handle it.
You have poor boundaries yourself with lunches and coffee with OS people and do not shut down OW when they hit on you...but think that you can handle it.
opiel it takes years to recover from an affair and no one will hold it against you if you decide to divorce. But understand that the anger and resentment will follow you even if you divorce because you have not dealt with it. Have you bought the book "Surviving an Affair?" It does not sound like you have because I can hear the betrayed spouse FOG in your posts.
Don't make decisions based solely on hurt...that will not help you recover and certainly will not help you in any future marriage. You have arrived in a gold mine of wisdom and experience. Pick up the tools.
Brian. thanks for the link.... it was an interesting reading; however, I think that the damage done on emotional level is simply too great to overcome. Frankly speking I don't even have a desire to try to make it work.
It is about a time to slowly start getting ready for my trip to Europe. It will be nice to stay way for a week from this mess.
Pokerface, I agree with you.... about everything.
I can see that our bondaries leave much to be desired. No question about that. We can make some significan changes, for instance I can quit my current job, but there are also some things that we cannot change much. I guess in the end it all boils down to self-control.
Yes, there is no guarantee that the next woman won't also cheat. To tell you the truth.... when we were together we were always great. There were hardly ever any significan problems. But my wife was compaling for some time that she felt like sailor's wife.... lonely and left behind on the cliff shore.
I did order the book but it will arrive tomorrow and I am leaving tonight to Copenhagen for a week to visit my family and friends. I definitively won't decide anything until my return.
But my wife was compaling for some time that she felt like sailor's wife.... lonely and left behind on the cliff shore.
This was your
to keep you from the h3ll you're in now. It is also you're key to restoring you marriage I think
Pokerface.... my wife is genuinely remorseful and wants to make our marriage work.
and
She has taken full responsibility for her affair saying.... "he was making advances, I could stop it but I didn't." She has been blaming herself only and never tried to minimaze or hide anything about what happend. FB messages, they exchanged, corraborate her story 100%.
and
... as far a polygraph test is concerned she is ready to take it at any time. As a matter of fact she suggested it on D-day herself when I asked her why I would believe anything she was telling me.
and
She is absolutely willing to close her FB and change her telephone number
If it wasn't for posts like the above, I would tell you to divorce her. You seem to have a WW who wants and is willing to make amends. That goes a long ways in my opinion...that's just my opinion.
Read SAA before making a decision. Read everything on this site. It will help no matter what you decide.
But my wife was compaling for some time that she felt like sailor's wife.... lonely and left behind on the cliff shore.
This was your
to keep you from the h3ll you're in now. It is also you're key to restoring you marriage I think
Opiel, after reading my response to you it may have sounded like I was implying that the A may have been your fault. I was NOT trying to imply that at all and I'm sorry if it came across like that. My point was simply that, an affair, like a airplane crash, can be seen as a chain of events that may be able to be stopped if we break the chain. Regardless, the A was her decision and hers alone.
Wow777, you are right and although I'm a judoka by nature I've been kicking myself really hard about that. It wasn't that I didn't listen to her or I was ignoring her but it is all too little too late now anyway.
I hope things are going well on your end.
Opiel, after reading my response to you it may have sounded like I was implying that the A may have been your fault. I was NOT trying to imply that at all and I'm sorry if it came across like that. My point was simply that, an affair, like a airplane crash, can be seen as a chain of events that may be able to be stopped if we break the chain. Regardless, the A was her decision and hers alone.
I didn't take it this way.... don't worry. I know that the affair was her decision but I have to admit I had my part in it too. Actually she isn't refering to it as affair, she looks at it more like a whoring adventure or simply cheating but not affair.
Maybe that is why you have some resentment. An affair is an affair whether it is one minute or one night of giving yourself to another person. It does seem that your WW is on board with doing whatever it takes to save your marriage but first she must admit that she had an affair. She can call it whatever she wants, but in the end it is an affair!
Actually she isn't refering to it as affair, she looks at it more like a whoring adventure...
So WW prefers, instead of being considered as a wayward spouse, to be judged as a whore?
Well, okay. At least the initials in
WW don't have to be changed!
Please listen to this and tell us what you think.
Radio Clip on When to Save a Marriage
Opiel
You, my friend, have a tremendous opportunity to save your marriage here. Use that opportunity wisely
opiel,
Haven't been on this site for a long time. Just logged in tonight to see what has been going on for the past few years. You said something that I thought I would comment on
I can see that our bondaries leave much to be desired. No question about that. We can make some significan changes, for instance I can quit my current job, but there are also some things that we cannot change much. I guess in the end it all boils down to self-control.
It does NOT boil down to self-control. At least in my mind it doesn't. It boils down to perspective and commitment.
You have more than a few posters tell you about boundaries. And in my opinion they have hit the nail on the head. But, what you must understand is that your W had to tell herself something to make her violate HER boundaries. So if I were you, I would be asking her to think about what her boundaries are, how she violated them IF SHE DID (she may not have the boundaries you think), and how will she protect them in the future.
Here is where the plan's that Harley talks about come in. She as well as you need a plan to protect boundaries. Now here is something else to consider by way of perspective.
When you married, you very likely made vows to one another. But the reality is they are vows to yourself. Who is going to enforce those vows? Are you going to enforce hers? Is she going to enforce yours? You and I suspect she knows that you must enforce your own vows. If you two do this, then the thought, "what he/she doesn't know won't hurt them." Can never be used because YOU will know if you violated your vows and she will know. Her guilt prompted her to tell you of her affair, she knows she failed.
But what will help you learn to trust again, and what will help her become a better person is if each of you reexamine your boundaries, consider your vows, and make plans that will help each of you adhere to the boundaries and vows.
These plans need to be detailed not like my diet plans: "I think I'll lose 20 lbs." That is not a plan it is a wish. A plan has milestones, metrics, actions, etc. Each of you need to do this.
Notice I am talking to you about this although you did not have the affair. Read Harley's books or at least the articles here and you will see that YOU can make the marriage stronger by having a plan to succeed, and SHE MUST have a plan in order to help you rebuild your trust in her and her trust in herself. The Policy of Joint Agreement, POJA is a painful but effective way to develop the plan and decide what the goals are for your marriage as well as your career and your family.
Hang in there, the folks here will help you. You have already shown wisdom in taking your time to make your decisions and I think you will see that with the help her you understand that you do have a future with your W and she has one with you, IF you two will learn, grow, and develop a different perspective on marriage.
God Bless,
JL
JL, nice post I learned something from that. Hope Opiel feels the same.
Opiel, you haven't written in a while. How are you?
In reading your WW's responses it doesn't pass the smell test that the A has actually ended yet.
I got the same exact Fog Babble from my FWW during our FR.
the 'ol "I'm not good enough. I'm a terrible person. I don't deserve you" on and on.
Oh, how the dialogue changed once the A actually ended.
Well, it appears that with each passing day since D-day I am getting closer to just pulling the plug on my marriage.
This is completely normal. Even if you do decide to R, there will be MANY, MANY times that you will vacillate between..love, hate, despair and hope. Then start the process all over again.
They don�t call it a Rollercoaster ride for nothing�
What I hope you can take away from this forum and Dr Harley�s teachings is that his program DOES work. IF you use it. There is hope. Hard as heck but R is possible with 2 willing partners.