I stumbled upon this site after making a beautiful "I love you" e-card for my husband after his departure to Europe. He deserved get it and I wanted and needed to send him one.
Yes, I'm the OP's whore or wayward wife. If you want to call me a skank or slut it's fine with me too.
I know it's my husband's thread and I have rather mixed feelings about posting here, but since I've found and read it, I feel he should know. I'm aware of pain I've caused and I take a full responsibility for my despicable behaviour. Still it's so painful to read all this.
There is an old Abba's video clip on Youtube "The Day Before You Came" I love to watch. Always liked to think it was about us. But it looks he doesn't even seem to want me anymore. Now it's more like "When All Is Said And Done".
I stumbled upon this site after making a beautiful "I love you" e-card for my husband after his departure to Europe. He deserved get it and I wanted and needed to send him one.
Yes, I'm the OP's whore or wayward wife. If you want to call me a skank or slut it's fine with me too.
I know it's my husband's thread and I have rather mixed feelings about posting here, but since I've found and read it, I feel he should know. I'm aware of pain I've caused and I take a full responsibility for my despicable behaviour. Still it's so painful to read all this.
There is an old Abba's video clip on Youtube "The Day Before You Came" I love to watch. Always liked to think it was about us. But it looks he doesn't even seem to want me anymore. Now it's more like "When All Is Said And Done".
Welcome to MB, tea.
You say that you are aware of the pain that you've caused, and also that you fine with being called a skank or slut.
That's terrible, tea. Why would you be fine with that? Why not stop being that? And if you aware of causing your H pain, why not stop?
Pepperband and I must have been constructing our posts at the same time. I did not see her post before I sent mine, but isn't it interesting that we said exactly the same thing at the very second we saw your post.
We are women with a degree of self-respect. Wr cannot understand how another woman can say such a thing about herself. Are you happy that you were used as a piece of toilet paper during your affair?
Please don't refer to yourself as that so you can throw a pity party! Follow Wows advice and start your own thread. Familiarize yourself with the concepts and post.
I stumbled upon this site after making a beautiful "I love you" e-card for my husband after his departure to Europe. He deserved get it and I wanted and needed to send him one.
I just went back and re-read your post. The e-card was a nice touch. We call them love bank deposits and they show the care that we have for our spouse. That was nicely done
We call people that stray Waywards because they have lost their way in the fog. We do not call them skanks or sluts but I do know why you feel you have earned those titles. I was a WW as well and felt I deserved to be called every last name in the book.
The most awesome thing is that you have seen the error in your ways and seem to want to fix your mistakes. Calling yourself names however is not the way to go about healing your marriage.
OP also mentioned that you are not calling your actions an affair but instead that you were "whoring around". I am not sure if by calling it that it makes you feel better or worse, either way you had an affair. Now, other than beating yourself up (we call it a pity party) and calling yourself names, what are you going to do to fix it?
The people here are not here to name call or judge you. They are here to clear your foggy head and help heal your marriage. They may have some tough questions and will require you to follow the program to a "tea"...ha ha but if you and OP are both in this together, you can save your marriage and make it better than ever.
Please keep reading, start your own thread, and learn MB concepts.
Under normal circumstances I'm a woman with a very healthy dose of self respect. But I did what I did and I don't have a problem with calling it what it really was. Wayward wife is a cute phrase but regardless how we try to spin it I'm still a woman who cheated on her husband.
In the good old days a barber was a barber, today he is a hair stylist. Undertaker was undertaker, today he is a mortician. I remember how my grandfather used to get upset when people were calling him auto technician. He was always telling them he was a car mechanic. He was proud of what he was doing and didn't need any cute name for it. And neither do I except for that I'm utterly disgusted with myself.
I don't look at it as an affair because an affair requires at least certain level of commitment and, above all, you are supposed to enjoy it, right? In my case it was neither. There was no commitment on my part and I didn't enjoy it. As a matter of fact I couldn't even sleep with him without getting drunk. Quite pathetic, isn't it?
I'm not in any kind of affair fog. I could run into him tomorrow and all I would feel would be embarrassment because what we've done. Nothing else. I have no desire to see him or to talk to him. I feel bad that he got hurt but he knew I was married. Perhaps he'll learn his lesson but I doubt that.
After I cut it off the only thing I was struggling with was how to tell my husband. I wasn't in any kind of post affair fog.
Some posters are questioning my boundaries around men. Of course, it isn't baseless considering what I've done but even during my modeling years I had no problems with keeping men at distance. I was a "print out" model for a decade, I did New York, Milan, Paris, Tokyo, so sometimes I was gone for a month or two but never cheated on anyone.
I think opening my own tread would be too awkward with my husband already on board. He needs this forum more. I'll tell him I posted here if he calls. It seems to be too late for us anyway.
Yes, I'm the OP's whore or wayward wife. If you want to call me a skank or slut it's fine with me too
That's not how Dr Harley view it, on his radio show he frequently tells callers something like.
"Your wife is not a bad person, we are all wired to have affairs, and when we don't use the proper precautions they can happen any one of us"
Obviously you are not or you would not feel this bad, it more important you do what you can to make amends to your BH, give him you honesty, openness and don't lie to cover up details to save his feelings.
First and foremost you need to read surviving the affair and lovebusters. It's not over till its over. Read Dr. H's basic concepts on the website. Also, continue to post and follow the advice from some the vets here. They are knowledgeable and been in your shoes. You seem to be willing to do whatever it takes now do it. Wish I could offer more advice but I'm inexperienced in recovery. Good luck
Some posters are questioning my boundaries around men. Of course, it isn't baseless considering what I've done but even during my modeling years I had no problems with keeping men at distance. I was a "print out" model for a decade, I did New York, Milan, Paris, Tokyo, so sometimes I was gone for a month or two but never cheated on anyone.
I understand completely. I know what it is like to have your boundaries questioned despite a long successful track record of good behavior. As a drunk driver I had no problems staying on the road for years. Not only was I an excellent drunk driver, but I could talk my way out of jail when stopped by the police. Many people questioned my drunk driving skills even though I drove drunk for years with no tickets or accidents. I have proven that drunk driving can be successful.
Even though traveling jobs usually result in affairs and drunk driving usually results in car crashes, I know we are different.
Calling someone a Wayward is not a putting the person who had the affair in a pretty little word package. It describes someone/anyone who has a moment of weakness whether it be for a minute, a night, a month, a year....
I understand your fog may have only been for a second and now you feel the shame and regret for letting your boundaries down even for a night.
As Gamma mentioned above, we are all wired for affairs. Even the strongest person with extremely high boundaries can mess up if they put themselves in a situation where they can be weakened or tested.
p.s. I am offering free drunk driving lessons to anyone who is interested. Great boundaries and great skills!
There is a problem here; you know you like alcohol waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa(enough A's yet?)aaaay too much, and dislike the consequences drinking brings even more... so you stay away from it.
Hard to be a drunk when you don't get near the drink.
Wait, I get it; I won't sleep with women who aren't my wife if I stay away from them and don't test my limits.
To sum it up you are still wayward because you haven't accepted the fact your boundaries around men and drink just plain suck. So be receptive and not deceptive and you may save your marriage. Do you have kids and how long have you been married?
I just think drunk driving is highly underrated! Like I said, I drove drunk for YEARS and never had one little accident! I have good boundaries, apparently.
I just think drunk driving is highly underrated! Like I said, I drove drunk for YEARS and never had one little accident! I have good boundaries, apparently.
*ahem*
Those aren't "boundaries," Mel, they are called gaurd rails...
(tj) Coming carousing out of a bar in the Bronx, my fraternity president threw me the keys and said, "You drive, NG - you're too drunk to SING!" (/tj)
Returning to the discussion at hand, tea1981, continuing to tempt fate by living the lifestyle that has already proved itself a facilitation to infidelity is nothing except stupid and cruel. Neither of those terms would be something with which most people would want to be identified.
The mental image of me, the most of you seem to have created, is the opposite of who I really am.
I've been always an intellectual type. I can fluently speak two foreign languages. I can't draw or paint like my husband but I can create breath taking images with Photoshop. I feel much better with a book in my hands than being at some bar or club. Bar scene or clubbing isn't my thing. I don't drink almost at all. I'd say ma average would be about two drinks per month so it isn't that I need to attend AA meetings any time soon.
The reason my soon to be ex-husband trusted me so much was because he could see how I was behaving around men. I'm not promiscuous and I don't seek attention from them. I didn't need any outside validation until my "affair".
I'm not hiding anything from my husband about it. As painful as it was for both of us I told him everything on the day I confessed. There is nothing left out. He knows everything what happened.
I had better start getting ready for work. I can't afford to lose it. I will be soon on my own again.
The reason my soon to be ex-husband trusted me so much was because he could see how I was behaving around men.
And it was this misplaced "trust" that led to the affair. No one should be trusted when they engage in risky behavior. That is my point. If you live this way, you should not be trusted. I was hoping you would get my analogy about drunk driving. Even though I am a GREAT drunk driver, no one should be trusted when they engage in risky behavior. And I never had an accident. YOU DID.
Hanging out in bars like a single woman wrecked your marriage.
The mental image of me, the most of you seem to have created, is the opposite of who I really am.
I see an intelligent young woman who put herself in a risky situation because she doesn't understand the risks. She doesn't understand that good people have affairs all the time. And it is typically the person who says "I am not like that!! I would never do that!" They are the ones who have affairs because they have poor boundaries.
It is a very small percentage of adulterers who are actually out looking for it. The playahs constitute about 1-3%, IMO.
The mental image I have of you is a woman who does not understand how affairs start. And because she doesn't understand this, believes her personal failing lies in not resisting temptation. But her failing lies in not recognizing the risks.
It is not a lack of trust that wrecks marriages, but a lack of boundaries.
And it was this misplaced "trust" that led to the affair.
You are right. The "misplaced trust" is what is hurting both of us the most.
No one should be trusted when they engage in risky behavior. That is my point. If you live this way, you should not be trusted. I was hoping you would get my analogy about drunk driving. Even though I am a GREAT drunk driver, no one should be trusted when they engage in risky behavior. And I never had an accident. YOU DID.
I did get your analogy about drunk driving. Belive me I really did.
Hanging out in bars like a single woman wrecked your marriage.
I can't argue with this. I've wrecked our marriage and need to accept the finality of it. It's all my fault. I don't blame my husband for anything. Anything at all. If the shoe was on the other foot I wouldn't like to be with a cheater either. I understand why he doesn't want me any more.
I can't argue with this. I've wrecked our marriage and need to accept the finality of it. It's all my fault. I don't blame my husband for anything. Anything at all. If the shoe was on the other foot I wouldn't like to be with a cheater either. I understand why he doesn't want me any more.
tea. you sound sincerely remorseful but remorse is not enough. You now need to EARN back your BH trust and love and that takes ACTIONS.
Have you read the book Surviving an Affair? That would be a good start.
F I G H T! For your marriage! You got to do it the right way though. Read that book and plan. Then put that plan into action! As a BH I know how your husband feels and I find my WW as the most despicable person on the planet right now. However, if she follows the MB plan and we work it together I would take her back. Not for myself but for our children and her sake. You have the tools put them to use and stop feeling sorry for yourself it doesn't help at all.
I have a Masters +24 hours of education. I feel that I am of above average intelligence. I got married very young and a year into my marriage I had an affair. Did not have MB at the time so H and I both dealt with it in our own way, basically swept in under the carpet.
For 13 years I felt I kept my boundaries pretty high. Even when I went out without my H I brushed off guys in bars, made sure I never drank so much that I made bad decisions, went out with girlfriends who I felt had my back. Told myself that I would NEVER have another affair. Held my head and self respect up high.
It was a work relationship that got me. Didn't have very high boundaries at work with other associates (men and women). Why? Because I thought I could handle it, I thought I was strong enough to fight off any temptation. So I got reckless. Started doing Happy hours with work people, agreed to to a co-teaching class with a male co-worker. Started spending lots of time with him. Starting telling each other about our marriages, spouses, etc.... We had so much in common..blah blah blah.
The entire time I am telling myself that this is not the same I am strong enough, smart enough, and learned my lesson the first time to ever do anything so stupid.
Guess how the story ends? Yeah, I'm sure you figured out I had an A, but you need to know the rest of the story. Because I feel that you are going to throw in the towel because of your mistake. That you are just going to allow this mistake to destroy your marriage rather than using it to educate yourself and heal your marriage.
the rest of the story is that I found MB and it saved me and my marriage. You and OP have a golden opportunity to save your marriage!!! Don't wallow in your mistake! Quit telling us that you like to stay home and read books, and bars aren't your "cup of tea" (again I love play on words). The fact is you chose to go out and do the things you really don't usually do. You chose to have an A,and now you are facing the consequences. Again, we are not judging you. A lot of us are very similar to you and know how you are feeling. I don't think one person on here is pinning you as a crazy, wild, drunk, party animal.
I can't speak for everyone but most waywards are the opposite of the description above. That is why we do have such a hard time dealing with what we did...because it was so unexpected that we don't even understand how and why it happened. But it did happen!
So my question is, are you going to curl your tail in between your legs or are you going to fight for the marriage that you have temporarily destroyed? Not going to lie, it is going to be hard work but If I can do it, you can do it!!
My time on this board is coming to an end and I'd like to THANK YOU ALL for your advice. Even if it was just a sentence or two, it was still helpful. It really was.
It's time for me to woman up and face consequences of my actions. I don't feel sorry for myself. On the contrary, I'm angry with myself, I'm extremely disappointed with choices I made, and I'm utterly disgusted with myself as a person.
I love my husband with every cell of my body and soul but I feel I just need to let him go. Trying to keep him in the marriage, I stained with infidelity, would be as selfish on my part as cheating itself was. It's very painful but he deserves better than me.
On the contrary, I'm angry with myself, I'm extremely disappointed with choices I made, and I'm utterly disgusted with myself as a person.
OK, but that is ALL about you. 100%.
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I love my husband with every cell of my body and soul but I feel I just need to let him go.
That also is ALL about you. 100%.
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Trying to keep him in the marriage, I stained with infidelity, would be as selfish on my part as cheating itself was.
You don't know what you are talking about. You are still so focused on your own self. No empathy. No drive to look deep within and do the difficult work to better yourself. I thought you were smart?
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It's very painful but he deserves better than me.
Isn't it so convenient to give yourself a "get out of jail free" card? Really? That's the best you can do? Give up? Not commit yourself to becoming a better spouse now that you found a location with just the tools to do that?
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THANK YOU once again, tea
This is very insincere & I am not buying any of it.
No, it isn't about me at all. I don't want to get divorced. I need to get divorced because I am a complete failure as a wife. All I could offer my husband was betrayal and a ton of emotional pain. The damage is irreversible.
No, it isn't about me at all. I don't want to get divorced. I need to get divorced because I am a complete failure as a wife. All I could offer my husband was betrayal and a ton of emotional pain. The damage is irreversible.
Or, you could quit being a pedantic drama queeen, and learn how to provide your husband just compensation for your offense.
Oh goodness tea1981. I've been showered with these types of self serving statements and navel gazing comments from my husband for months now. You have now given up the A that you are not even sure really qualifies for an A but the fog has still gotcha. Its a dry drunk.
MB program allows you to step out of the destructive story you have created for your marriage and step into a beautiful new story. There is a chance to be a success. Are you afraid of success?
No, it isn't about me at all. I don't want to get divorced. I need to get divorced because I am a complete failure as a wife. All I could offer my husband was betrayal and a ton of emotional pain. The damage is irreversible.
Unfortunately, it is all about you. Do you think divorce is going to be any easier emotionally on your H? If he decides D, then so be it. You however should Chose to fight for your marriage for him regardless of how ashamed you feel (selfish, self pitty filled thoughts).
You are right the damage is irreversible. With or without you he is going to feel the pain of what you did. Wouldn't you rather be with him to help him heal and show him what you can do to help him feel safe in your marriage? Or are you going to continue your pity party all by yourself?
Or, you could quit being a pedantic drama queeen, and learn how to provide your husband just compensation for your offense.
I noticed I'm becoming a Caucasian counterpart of Serena Williams - the drama seems to follow me everywhere. But you're right - my grotesquely strange behaviour must stop.
Not sure if my husband wants to have anything to do wit me.
Hey Serena Williams is a tennis goddess! Anyways, you got some extremely truthful and helpful advice here and it was free! Glad your sticking around! Just wanted to say STOP WORRYING ABOUT YOUR HUSBAND! You need to focus on your boundaries and read about the MB program. Put it into action. You need to clean up your side of the street and stop the self loathing. Like a hamster on a wheel it will get you nowhere. Ill be watching and hoping for your success. To recap, study MB, read the books (Surviving the Affair, Lovebusters, and His Needs Her Needs), correct your self destructive behavior and reinforce your boundaries around men. Your wasting valuable time with your pity parties!
Unfortunately, it is all about you. Do you think divorce is going to be any easier emotionally on your H? If he decides D, then so be it. You however should Chose to fight for your marriage for him regardless of how ashamed you feel (selfish, self pitty filled thoughts).
You are right the damage is irreversible. With or without you he is going to feel the pain of what you did. Wouldn't you rather be with him to help him heal and show him what you can do to help him feel safe in your marriage? Or are you going to continue your pity party all by yourself?
Fighting for my marriage - it's certainly a great idea. But what makes you think that waywards, like you and me, really deserve a second chance? Sure, we both can write poems but it didn't stop us from cheating on our spouses, did it?
I'm a girl who took her wedding ring and run for a hot date with my handsome average Joe. My problem was he was so disappointing. Do you think I deserve a second chance?
Fifteenyears, you're a smart woman and truly enjoy reading your insightful posts. It isn't my intention to make you feel bad in anyway, not at all, but think for a moment about your own affair. Let's assume that your affair partner never confessed to his wife and you didn't get caught, do you think it's possible that you would be still banging him behind your husband's back? Which one would you be sending your love poems to?
Do you still think we deserve to get a second chance?
It makes me sick when I think about all that. Yes, I've become a pitiful woman. All my fault. I liked myself much more the way I used to be.
FY can weigh in on that but I know as well you do. Good men don't date or have sex with married women. That simple. FY can get into the intelligent discussion but that's the bottom line.
FY can weigh in on that but I know as well you do. Good men don't date or have sex with married women. That simple. FY can get into the intelligent discussion but that's the bottom line.
Whether you deserve a second chance or not is really up to your husband. If you follow the MB principals then you will become a better, more attractive person and no matter what relationship you have in the future, it will be healthy.
Your husband is hurting right now. He is not sure that you want him either. Start by showing him that you do. Start by sending him the text messages, emails that tell him you're wanting/willing to work on things to have a happy marriage. Regardless of what he sends or doesn't send back. Keep telling him.
You are both in a fog right now. He's been blindsided by a train and he's not sure what he wants. You have a great opportunity to help him decide to save the marriage. Your willingness to throw in the towel so quickly tells him that you want out too. Show him that you are in this for the long haul.
By the way, the guilt and shame that you are feeling will start to diminish as you rebuild. Dont let them push your husband further away. The people that have been responding to you are the experts on how to save your marriage. LISTEN to them and DO what they tell you to do.
My W and I are almost 3 months post D-Day. I'm still new at this but I can attest to the MB principals and so far these folks have been 100% right on. We have a chance now, when I was ready to call it quits on D-Day. Take a deep breath and dig your heels in and fight for your marriage.
Tea, just quit the 'woe is me' act. You're like the skinny girl complaining she's fat, fishing for compliments - you're fishing for people to tell you 'but you're here and trying, you aren't a bad person! It's quite transparent - just stop.
Typical behaviour of an adulterer - seeking admiration from others but ignoring the obvious - your spouse.
If you are genuine, then please ask people, what steps do you take TODAY to help your husband get through this and save your marriage. Quit talking and start doing, if you are genuine.
Fighting for my marriage - it's certainly a great idea. But what makes you think that waywards, like you and me, really deserve a second chance? Sure, we both can write poems but it didn't stop us from cheating on our spouses, did it?
I'm a girl who took her wedding ring and run for a hot date with my handsome average Joe. My problem was he was so disappointing. Do you think I deserve a second chance?
Fifteenyears, you're a smart woman and truly enjoy reading your insightful posts. It isn't my intention to make you feel bad in anyway, not at all, but think for a moment about your own affair. Let's assume that your affair partner never confessed to his wife and you didn't get caught, do you think it's possible that you would be still banging him behind your husband's back? Which one would you be sending your love poems to?
Do you still think we deserve to get a second chance?
It makes me sick when I think about all that. Yes, I've become a pitiful woman. All my fault. I liked myself much more the way I used to be.
So, does no sinner deserve a second chance?
Tea, you have two different issues here. As far as second chances in marriage with your BH go, yes, it is totally up to him as to whether or not to give you a second chance. But even should that not happen, don't you believe that you as a person deserve an opportunity for redemption?
Self-forgiveness has been difficult for me and at times I think the best I can come to is acceptance. I cheated on my husband, I lied to him, I inflicted extreme emotional damage on him. I can't change it, I can only move forward. I could accept a changed concept of myself as a whore/slut/adulterer, or I could work to change my own personal shortcomings to become a better human being...at the same time, trying to show that I was capable of being the kind of wife that my H deserved.
I'm not saying that I didn't wallow in self-pity during the last three years, and I'm not saying that I don't feel self-pity at all now. I am not perfect. I did not recover my marriage, but I saw the person I was during my adultery and I decided I did not want to be that person anymore.
Being forgiven is more that just saying "I'm sorry." It's more than donning sackcloth and ashes and moaning about how worthless you are. Part of seeking forgiveness is trying to make amends to your victim. He may choose not to accept your attempts at making amends, and that is his choice. Your choice is whether or not you allow your actions to define your worth as a person. I agree - your actions as an adulterer were despicable. So what kind of actions do you want to show your husband now?
Pith and pity are obnoxious distractions to going forward in a positive healing direction.
Your husband has sent you here for a reason. He has left you to choose a path. The affair will not kill your marriage.
Your so called good reasoning and logic will.
You both now know about your betrayal. You knew long before your husband. He is grasping and getting a handle on this difficult reality.
Your right! your marriage will not be the same any longer. Whether you divorce or not ----what you had is gone forever.
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Checkout the awesome blue prints: Read through "Surviving and Affair." "His Needs Her Needs" "Lovebusters"
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Need to customize? Call MB coaching center.
Kicking around in the rubble of your now destroyed marriage will not help anyone. Get to work. The tools are here.
Yes, I've become a pitiful woman. All my fault. I liked myself much more the way I used to be.
The way to feel better about yourself is to stand up and make amends to your victim and become the woman you used to be.
Your husband is on the floor bleeding and you are trying to convince yourself that it would be better to let him bleed out as you turn away once again.
That is not noble and will not help you to feel any better about yourself.
Have you read any of the books or articles? Have you called the coaching center? Have you done anything to learn how to repair the damage? On what basis do you think it is irreversible?
Fighting for my marriage - it's certainly a great idea. But what makes you think that waywards, like you and me, really deserve a second chance? Sure, we both can write poems but it didn't stop us from cheating on our spouses, did it?
I'm a girl who took her wedding ring and run for a hot date with my handsome average Joe. My problem was he was so disappointing. Do you think I deserve a second chance?
Fifteenyears, you're a smart woman and truly enjoy reading your insightful posts. It isn't my intention to make you feel bad in anyway, not at all, but think for a moment about your own affair. Let's assume that your affair partner never confessed to his wife and you didn't get caught, do you think it's possible that you would be still banging him behind your husband's back? Which one would you be sending your love poems to?
Do you still think we deserve to get a second chance?
It makes me sick when I think about all that. Yes, I've become a pitiful woman. All my fault. I liked myself much more the way I used to be.
So, does no sinner deserve a second chance?
Tea, you have two different issues here. As far as second chances in marriage with your BH go, yes, it is totally up to him as to whether or not to give you a second chance. But even should that not happen, don't you believe that you as a person deserve an opportunity for redemption?
Self-forgiveness has been difficult for me and at times I think the best I can come to is acceptance. I cheated on my husband, I lied to him, I inflicted extreme emotional damage on him. I can't change it, I can only move forward. I could accept a changed concept of myself as a whore/slut/adulterer, or I could work to change my own personal shortcomings to become a better human being...at the same time, trying to show that I was capable of being the kind of wife that my H deserved.
I'm not saying that I didn't wallow in self-pity during the last three years, and I'm not saying that I don't feel self-pity at all now. I am not perfect. I did not recover my marriage, but I saw the person I was during my adultery and I decided I did not want to be that person anymore.
Being forgiven is more that just saying "I'm sorry." It's more than donning sackcloth and ashes and moaning about how worthless you are. Part of seeking forgiveness is trying to make amends to your victim. He may choose not to accept your attempts at making amends, and that is his choice. Your choice is whether or not you allow your actions to define your worth as a person. I agree - your actions as an adulterer were despicable. So what kind of actions do you want to show your husband now?
Tea,
Ditto to everything WPG said. I could not have said it any better and everything she said rings true to my experiences.
You asked some tough questions and a over a year ago I might have looked at what you said and agreed with every word. For a long time I did not think I deserved anything and I probably didn't but I am not the person I was a year ago.
Tea, I think all of the time about where I would be today if my AP did not confess to his wife. I like to think that everything happens for a reason and honestly thank God every day that things went down the way they did. I would be lying if I said that if not for getting caught I might not still be in my foggy mess. I can't live my life in "what ifs" anymore.
So your question to me is "Do you think we deserve a second chance" and my answer is YES. It took me a long time to be able to say this and to even feel like I deserve it. But looking at who I am now and who I was I can honestly say that I am a different person.
You keep saying that you wish that you could go back to the women you were? But was that woman really better than women you can become? What if you can become that women again but even smarter, wiser, with higher boundaries that you know will stick?
Yes, you fell from grace and now you have the opportunity to pick yourself up and improve upon your faults. A year ago I would have read what you said and agreed with you 100%. I would have said who am I to give anyone advice, I deserve nothing, I am a horrible person.... Guess what I pulled my head out of my butt, took of my pity cloak, and got to work making sure that I would never again allow myself to be a WW.
Anyone who is truly willing to make the change and truly repent deserves a second chance.
I always considered myself to be successful on all levels: academic, professional, and personal. Of course, the picture isn't pretty anymore.
Ou contraire mon ami .... the picture is about to become better. Your perfection of success needed some humanity. Some humility. Guess what? Every sincere person on this forum had to do the same thing. The betrayed spouse who becomes successful in marriage recovery does so with renewed humility. The successful wandering spouse will also move forward with new found humility.
Imagine a 9 year old school girl who has her perfect grade point average ruined by a D or an F in a subject she thought she'd mastered. What does that perfect child do? Well according to Tea Kettle, she quits school because she is no longer perfect.
Tea Kettle, meet humility. Your missing piece. It will serve to enhance your beauty and your empathy and deepen your soulfulness.
Being forgiven is more that just saying "I'm sorry." It's more than donning sackcloth and ashes and moaning about how worthless you are. Part of seeking forgiveness is trying to make amends to your victim. He may choose not to accept your attempts at making amends, and that is his choice. Your choice is whether or not you allow your actions to define your worth as a person.
WPG .... You are so NOT the same woman who arrived on these forums!
Being forgiven is more that just saying "I'm sorry." It's more than donning sackcloth and ashes and moaning about how worthless you are. Part of seeking forgiveness is trying to make amends to your victim. He may choose not to accept your attempts at making amends, and that is his choice. Your choice is whether or not you allow your actions to define your worth as a person.
WPG .... You are so NOT the same woman who arrived on these forums!
Being forgiven is more that just saying "I'm sorry." It's more than donning sackcloth and ashes and moaning about how worthless you are. Part of seeking forgiveness is trying to make amends to your victim. He may choose not to accept your attempts at making amends, and that is his choice. Your choice is whether or not you allow your actions to define your worth as a person.
WPG .... You are so NOT the same woman who arrived on these forums!
You 'da man!!! You inspire me.
Agreed!
Awww, shucks, y'all...I am a work in progress! Just want to pay it forward.
Your husband is on the floor bleeding and you are trying to convince yourself that it would be better to let him bleed out as you turn away once again.
That is because her attitude is one of someone that is either:
1) ALL the facts of the A are not out on the table ie..still more that her H does not know yet. Much more of the story to be told?? hmmmm
I agree, I think she wants to say well I tried and go off and be an adulteress. She got her feet in the water and scared to swim. It's all about me (tea) and not about her poor BH. Start the defogging process!
Thank you all for your insightful posts. Reading them helps me tremendously even if they get a little harsh. I'll try to answer all of them later tonight.
I scheduled a polygraph test for myself for next Saturday (April 14). I told my husband everything but I still feel it's a crucial step if we're to reconcile. I don't want him to have any doubts about what happened even if he decides to end our marriage. It'll help him to heal faster.
I agree, I think she wants to say well I tried and go off and be an adulteress. She got her feet in the water and scared to swim. It's all about me (tea) and not about her poor BH. Start the defogging process!
I'd like to positively and confidently dispel any doubts you may have - I don't want to be adulteress. Actually, I concede this idea to be outright ludicrous.
Tea, you have two different issues here. As far as second chances in marriage with your BH go, yes, it is totally up to him as to whether or not to give you a second chance. But even should that not happen, don't you believe that you as a person deserve an opportunity for redemption?
Self-forgiveness has been difficult for me and at times I think the best I can come to is acceptance. I cheated on my husband, I lied to him, I inflicted extreme emotional damage on him. I can't change it, I can only move forward. I could accept a changed concept of myself as a whore/slut/adulterer, or I could work to change my own personal shortcomings to become a better human being...at the same time, trying to show that I was capable of being the kind of wife that my H deserved.
I'm not saying that I didn't wallow in self-pity during the last three years, and I'm not saying that I don't feel self-pity at all now. I am not perfect. I did not recover my marriage, but I saw the person I was during my adultery and I decided I did not want to be that person anymore.
Being forgiven is more that just saying "I'm sorry." It's more than donning sackcloth and ashes and moaning about how worthless you are. Part of seeking forgiveness is trying to make amends to your victim. He may choose not to accept your attempts at making amends, and that is his choice. Your choice is whether or not you allow your actions to define your worth as a person. I agree - your actions as an adulterer were despicable. So what kind of actions do you want to show your husband now?
Thank you, WPG. This is exactly what I needed to hear. I'm OK for the most part but when guilt kicks in, it does hard. I guess I'm not an affair material. I know it was my first and last.
My story isn't as bad as most I have read here but it's still bad enough to end our marriage. My husband is coming back from Europe tomorrow evening and I literally feel like a patient preparing for my cancer test results. I just hope it isn't terminal.
Ditto to everything WPG said. I could not have said it any better and everything she said rings true to my experiences.
You asked some tough questions and a over a year ago I might have looked at what you said and agreed with every word. For a long time I did not think I deserved anything and I probably didn't but I am not the person I was a year ago.
Tea, I think all of the time about where I would be today if my AP did not confess to his wife. I like to think that everything happens for a reason and honestly thank God every day that things went down the way they did. I would be lying if I said that if not for getting caught I might not still be in my foggy mess. I can't live my life in "what ifs" anymore.
So your question to me is "Do you think we deserve a second chance" and my answer is YES. It took me a long time to be able to say this and to even feel like I deserve it. But looking at who I am now and who I was I can honestly say that I am a different person.
You keep saying that you wish that you could go back to the women you were? But was that woman really better than women you can become? What if you can become that women again but even smarter, wiser, with higher boundaries that you know will stick?
Yes, you fell from grace and now you have the opportunity to pick yourself up and improve upon your faults. A year ago I would have read what you said and agreed with you 100%. I would have said who am I to give anyone advice, I deserve nothing, I am a horrible person.... Guess what I pulled my head out of my butt, took of my pity cloak, and got to work making sure that I would never again allow myself to be a WW.
Anyone who is truly willing to make the change and truly repent deserves a second chance.
Always great to hear from you, Fifteenyears.
Personally I don't subscribe to this "everything happens for a reason" doctrine. On psychological level it's very comforting way of copping with difficulties in life but it seems to me like being just a step away from believing in pixie dust. I prefer to accept that some events occur because of a combination of chance, accidents, and human irrationality. Life can be highly meaningful even if some things that happen are just accidents.
Stuff happens and we need to deal with it, right?
I'll tell you somthing, like one cake eater to another, I can't wait for my husband to get back but I'm scared like merde. I'll take day off tomorrow.
Your husband is hurting right now. He is not sure that you want him either. Start by showing him that you do. Start by sending him the text messages, emails that tell him you're wanting/willing to work on things to have a happy marriage. Regardless of what he sends or doesn't send back. Keep telling him.
Wow777, he wanted to get this thing off his mind as much as he could and asked me not to contact him until his return. I told him to call me at any time of day or night if he wanted to call but he never did.
Originally Posted by alias
Typical behaviour of an adulterer - seeking admiration from others but ignoring the obvious - your spouse.
Not true. Admiration form others has been a bane of my existance for last 20 years. I may be slightly melodramatical here but it's created a lot problems in my life.
Originally Posted by graceful2b
Your husband has sent you here for a reason.
Your right! your marriage will not be the same any longer. Whether you divorce or not ----what you had is gone forever.
He didn't, I found it working on his PC and read his thread. I know I'm a terrible wife. And you are probaly right about our marriage.
Originally Posted by pokerface
Have you read any of the books or articles? Have you called the coaching center? Have you done anything to learn how to repair the damage? On what basis do you think it is irreversible?
Pick yourself up girlfriend.
There was a package delivered from Amazon.com last Saturday with two books inside. I've haven't opened it but based on what I read in my husband's thread he ordered Surviving and Affair.
I'm trying to pick myself up.
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Ou contraire mon ami .... the picture is about to become better. Esp�rons-le! Your perfection of success needed some humanity. Some humility. Guess what? Every sincere person on this forum had to do the same thing. The betrayed spouse who becomes successful in marriage recovery does so with renewed humility. The successful wandering spouse will also move forward with new found humility.
Pepperband, I've always treated my husband very well and he was a happy man. He really was. Of course, that was before I cheated on him.
Your husband is on the floor bleeding and you are trying to convince yourself that it would be better to let him bleed out as you turn away once again.
That is because her attitude is one of someone that is either:
1) ALL the facts of the A are not out on the table ie..still more that her H does not know yet. Much more of the story to be told?? hmmmm
I assure you I have nothing to be embarrassed about. I have seen your type many times.
All waywards think somehow they are special or unique in their circumstances.
Many think that after discovery, they are thinking very clearly and have �perspective�. However, many play game after game after game trying to throw their BS off balance by gaslighting to continue their ways.
Many BS�s want to believe that after discovery, their WS will �see the light� and wake up. As Dr Harley says �Most affairs die a natural death�.
The fact that you are unwilling to help your H WHO IS LAYING ON THE FLOOR IN MISERY is a HUGE red flag.
You clearly know your H is reading your thread. If you had such �great perspective� on things I suspect you would not have found yourself in this situation.
Prove me wrong with a poly. I pray for your H that you are telling the truth. It usually isn�t the A that leads to most divorces after an A. It is the lies and deceit.
My husband is coming back from Europe tomorrow evening and I literally feel like a patient preparing for my cancer test results. I just hope it isn't terminal.
You need to meet him with a PLAN for how you are going to protect your marriage from now on and how you can rebuild the respect and love. The book will help you with this.
I'm surprised that you have done nothing to figure out how to repair this. It will look to him like you have given up. Why would he want to stay if you yourself see it as hopeless and think that the damage is irreversible? You need to fight tea. Betrayed spouses look at ACTIONS...words are meaningless.
I scheduled a polygraph test for myself for next Saturday (April 14). I told my husband everything but I still feel it's a crucial step if we're to reconcile. I don't want him to have any doubts about what happened even if he decides to end our marriage. It'll help him to heal faster.
Excellent step. This is the type of ACTION that your BH needs to see...even if he doesn't seem to think it is necessary. He will see it.
I think you are off base 20yearhistory. Tea stated that she scheduled a poly. I don't think your attitude is helpful at this point. Tea seems contrite and remorseful....as well as being open and honest. She is in the right place and doing better than most at this point.
I hope she has a shot at having a better marriage than before the A... as many of us in recovery have experienced through a lot more hell than her BS has been through with her.
If Opiel decides to D at this point he could be setting himself up for more disappointments in future relationships that could end up worse than what he currently has if he doesn't work the MB program within this marriage. Working within his current marriage and learning through all the pain of the roller coaster of emotions would certainly help them have a more solid, fulfilling marriage in the future.
Having been a BS, I know that time does heal the sting of the pain from the A. The constant reliving, visions, etc...all dissipate with time. But, it does take time....lots of time.
I don't think it is unreasonable to question why a genuinely remorseful WS would repeatedly state that the situation is hopeless rather than striving to provide just compensation.
I think she has already received that message. She has to gather up all her strength to fight for her marriage instead of wallowing in the self pity of defeat and expectation that the ax is coming down on her marriage upon the return of her BS.
I think we have a willing WW here...someone ready to grow and learn...and not needing to be slammed because it is hard to regroup when feeling like a complete failure.
I know you all mean well...we all want to help them succeed. I just don't want to scare her away in defeat before she barely gets started.
I don't think it is unreasonable to question why a genuinely remorseful WS would repeatedly state that the situation is hopeless rather than striving to provide just compensation.
tea you are getting great insight into how a betrayed spouse views things.
Do not discredit what a BS posts to you...learn from it.
I think you are off base 20yearhistory. Tea stated that she scheduled a poly. I don't think your attitude is helpful at this point. Tea seems contrite and remorseful....as well as being open and honest. She is in the right place and doing better than most at this point.
Unfortunately things are not always as they seem.
As I said, she can prove me wrong with a poly.
I am a little surprised that anyone on this board would believe anything that comes out of the mouth of a wayward, especially at this early stage.
We have seen situations here where a WS uses this board to convince their BS that they are being honest and then it comes out at a later time they were lying the entire time.
My husband is coming back from Europe tomorrow evening and I literally feel like a patient preparing for my cancer test results. I just hope it isn't terminal.
You need to meet him with a PLAN for how you are going to protect your marriage from now on and how you can rebuild the respect and love. The book will help you with this.
I'm surprised that you have done nothing to figure out how to repair this. It will look to him like you have given up. Why would he want to stay if you yourself see it as hopeless and think that the damage is irreversible? You need to fight tea. Betrayed spouses look at ACTIONS...words are meaningless.
Do you need help with a plan?
You may not be able to develop a full plan before he gets back. You should, however, plan on reading the books together when he returns and commti to forging a plan together. If he refuses, make your own plan to become a different person and let him see the changes.
Just like other people in the position you and Opiel are in, the plan should be to talk only of reconcilling and your wish for a strong healthy marriage. Do not talk of divorce with him. Just reassure him that you are in this for the long haul. Don't condemn yourself anymore either, it's very unattractive to your husband and keeps reminding him of the affair.
Tea, I am encouraged by your remorse and willingness to repair you relationship and keep your family together, thanks for sharing with us. I reiterate what others are saying that you need to have a plan ready to present and implement.
You can start by asking your BH if he would rather be in love with a complete stranger or the mother of his children ? If his answer is not the mother of his children, then this is a huge red flag ?
My WW is still heading in the opposite direction from you, but if she ever changes her mind and wants to work things out, the plan that I posted on my thread is based on the four rules from the SAA book, as follows:
Marriage Healing Plan 1. No Contact Letter to Affair Partner must witness it being written and mailed. 2. Full disclosure of all affairs had since marriage � confirmed by Polygraph testing 3. After above � affairs never mentioned again. 4. Cell phone number changed 5. New email address 6. Commit to �Rule of Protection� POJA on all decisions, no DJ�s, AO�s 7. Commit to �Rule of Care� Identify top emotional needs 8. Commit to �Rule of Time� 20+ hours per week of UA time spent on above needs including SF, RC, Affection, Conversation. 9. Commit to Rule of Honesty� we will have access to each other cell phones, email, computers with passwords for Social Networking and banking. 10. No more opposite sex friendships, No more inappropriate flirting with opposite sex 11. Review the plan monthly and make corrections as needed. 12. Use the MB forum as needed for added help and coaching.
...during my modeling years I had no problems with keeping men at distance. I was a "print out" model for a decade, I did New York, Milan, Paris, Tokyo . . . I've been always an intellectual type. I can fluently speak two foreign languages. I can't draw or paint like my husband but I can create breath taking images with Photoshop. . . . I noticed I'm becoming a Caucasian counterpart of Serena Williams - the drama seems to follow me everywhere. . . . I always considered myself to be successful on all levels: academic, professional, and personal.. . . I guess I'm not an affair material. Ahem...at risk of stating the obvious, you've already proven this untrue.. . . My story isn't as bad as most I have read here. . . Admiration form others has been a bane of my existance for last 20 years. I may be slightly melodramatical here but it's created a lot problems in my life. . . . I've always treated my husband very well. Again, I hate to state the obvious, but you certainly don't have any ego problems, and you're much more focused on yourself than on your husband.
Originally Posted by TranquilDark
I agree, I think she wants to say well I tried and go off and be an adulteress. She got her feet in the water and scared to swim. It's all about me (tea) and not about her poor BH. Start the defogging process!
I'd like to positively and confidently dispel any doubts you may have - I don't want to be adulteress. Actually, I concede this idea to be outright ludicrous.
Originally Posted by tea1981
Originally Posted by 20YearHistory
Originally Posted by pokerface
Your husband is on the floor bleeding and you are trying to convince yourself that it would be better to let him bleed out as you turn away once again.
That is because her attitude is one of someone that is either:
1) ALL the facts of the A are not out on the table ie..still more that her H does not know yet. Much more of the story to be told?? hmmmm
or
2) The A is still going strong
Maybe I'm right..maybe I'm wrong.
You're just embarrassing yourself
Tea: People who are genuinely contrite, humble, and remorseful, don't make a big show of it and then go on the attack as soon as their behavior is questioned.
You can start by asking your BH if he would rather be in love with a complete stranger or the mother of his children ? If his answer is not the mother of his children, then this is a huge red flag ?
I think she has already received that message. She has to gather up all her strength to fight for her marriage instead of wallowing in the self pity of defeat and expectation that the ax is coming down on her marriage upon the return of her BS.
I think we have a willing WW here...someone ready to grow and learn...and not needing to be slammed because it is hard to regroup when feeling like a complete failure.
I know you all mean well...we all want to help them succeed. I just don't want to scare her away in defeat before she barely gets started.
You may very well be right.
However, the problem with your theory is that the initial steps to validate your position have yet to be established.
Such as:
1) Come clean with ALL the facts. Leave nothing out. Answer every single question he has honestly 2) Write a NC letter 3) Identify and eliminate the conditions that lead to the A 4) Pass a poly (great step- possibly scheduled) 5) Create and implement EP's
These would be great first steps to prove her sincerity. These are all things she can do on her own without any type of buy-in from her BH.
Actions are the key here..not beautifully crafted words and phrases- which is all we have seen at this stage.
As a BS the only reason I ever post to a WS is to help the BS. I am acutely aware that the only way her H can truly heal from the most horrific event of his LIFE�is from HER.
Tea could have written a comprehensive list of EPs in a fraction of the time she has spent waxing poetic and trying to rationalize divorce as the most "ethical" and "noble" course of action.
Funny story that happened to me today that made me think of you. My 16 year old son who does not have a lot of common sense right now decided that it was okay to use vulgar language with one of his buddies on the golf course right outside our house (our home backs up to hole 5). Apparently an older neighbor heard them and was trying to get in touch with me today, but I was not home.
When I returned home I had a note from a police officer on my counter saying that this man, my neighbor across the course was had a run in with my son, his mouth, and was a little worried. The last words the copy said were "we won't have any more problems will we".
So I decided to take my son over to his house to apologize for his actions, his mouth, and any part of the story I was not getting from my son (his version was crazy old man, who freaked out about nothing....). So I took my son to his house. They sat out on his porch for a long time before he came to the car to speak to me.
Okay I am finally getting to the point and connection to you. He came up to me and told me that he really appreciated my son coming to talk to him. He said that sometimes our mouths are our greatest enemy and anytime they are open we should and could be in trouble.
What he said that reminded me you you and the point to this very long story is that he said the only person in this entire world that was perfect was and is our maker and the everyone else is far from perfect.
Key line however was this "everyone will make mistakes, it is not the mistakes you make but what you learn from them and the changes you make because of them."
WOWZA!! I thought of Tea and MB immediately.
Some people on here think that you have something to hide. I do not. I think you are a perfectionists. You pride yourself in the fact that you have always done things right, that you are smart, and that you have made the right decisions most of your life.
So the hardest part to all of this, what is killing you is the fact that you finally failed, you messed up, you made a mistake and a big one at that. But don't you see? This is the connection to everything. I know you don't believe that all things happen for a reason, but it is a bit ironic that everything thing this man said to me today made me think of you. You can't stand that you made such a big mistake but what you fail to see is what you can learn from this mistake.
My son was humbled by this man and said that he learned more from him in the five minutes he spent on his porch than he had learned in a long time. He had a new found respect and appreciation for this man.
I also learned and was reminded that we do make mistakes. It is what you learn and how you change based on those mistakes that really defines who you are.
Sorry I was so wordy but I hope it helps. I felt compelled to share and share with you in particular.
I totally agree and when you figure this concept out and practice it in life you obtained wisdom and experience. Too bad most adults fail to understand.
Some people on here think that you have something to hide. I do not. I think you are a perfectionists. You pride yourself in the fact that you have always done things right, that you are smart, and that you have made the right decisions most of your life.
I agree. That's also how I see this.
Tea Kettle, I am a woman who is enjoying my 32 year marriage 17 years after adultery almost ruined us. I know what joy can come from recovery. You do not. It will take a leap of faith. It will require humility.
Quote
You can't stand that you made such a big mistake but what you fail to see is what you can learn from this mistake.
She is exactly correct. You don't know what to do. So you turn on your heels to escape. I think there is more substance to you than that. Plus, you will regret not giving this your best effort. No one knows what the outcome will be if you try. We all know what the result will be if you fail to try.
XVY has bloomed on this forum. She's da' man!
Is the solution for failure more or less effort?More or less knowledge? More or less commitment?
Why humility? Because you will understand a deeper empathy for the rest of us earthy fools when we screw up. Which, we will.
Tea, it is very unlikely that your H's love bank balance has reached absolute zero. He's very wounded because he loves you so much. Can you agree with that statement?
There was a package delivered from Amazon.com last Saturday with two books inside. I've haven't opened it but based on what I read in my husband's thread he ordered Surviving and Affair.
I was a WW too. D-day was 2 years ago this August. My husband and I are recovering our marriage and in the process I have learned a lot about myself.
I learned that I like attention from men. No, I love attention from men, and that makes me dangerous. I also realized that the only thing that kept my marriage affair-free for 15 years was lack of opportunity. Ouch. It sounds so ugly to admit it. But it is uglier to NOT admit it.
My husband and I have had to make a ton of changes--at times both of us thought "this is hopeless". But we kept on doing the right things even when it felt wrong.
I thought I would always be defined and remembered as an adulteress. BUT I'M NOT ! My husband, kids, family, friends--everyone knows about my affair, but we rarely talk about it and I think about it less and less. We are replacing bad memories with new ones. I feel GOOD about my life again.
You can too. I thought it was impossible, but we are doing the impossible !! And that feels good.....
Tea, it is very unlikely that your H's love bank balance has reached absolute zero. He's very wounded because he loves you so much. Can you agree with that statement?
We both are in love with each other but considering what I've done it may be a major obstacle for both of us.
I believe my husband already ordered the book and the package from Amazon, with two books inside, was delivered last Saturday.
Originally Posted by Lexxxy
Men who don't want to be married -- don't order marriage books. Just sayin'
Let's hope so, Lexxxy.
Originally Posted by FindingFreedom
I learned that I like attention from men. No, I love attention from men, and that makes me dangerous. I also realized that the only thing that kept my marriage affair-free for 15 years was lack of opportunity. Ouch. It sounds so ugly to admit it. But it is uglier to NOT admit it.
Your ability to take a clear and fresh look at yourself is remarkable. It's especially true if you observe something you don't like or would rather not see I can only admire and respect it. I need to get to this point myself. I need to do it soon.
I need to get ready to pick him up at the airport.
Good luck Tea, but only you have your future in your hands, if you want it, you'd better fight for it. You'd better come up with a plan and make it work.
If you don't, nobody will.
So there, kick in the booty! Don't complain about your misery, do something about it. You still have a couple of hours, write that NC letter, write that list of EP's, tell your husband you want this to work and here's the plan, then you can finetune the plan together, if he wants too.
No, we aren't getting divorced. There is too much love between us to do it. Waiting for my husband at O'Hare yesterday and not knowing what would happen was a terrible experience. It was awful. When I saw on monitors that the plane landed I thought I would have a heart attack. Fortunately, when he finally came out I could see his eyes were still looking for me. He still loved me. I kissed him, gave him a long hug, and whispered "let's go home."
As soon as we got into my SUV I kissed and hugged him again except for this time I started crying. I couldn't help myself. We switched seats and he drove us back home.
We had a very lovely evening when we got home. My parent decided to visit us for a few hours today, not exactly what we had in mind, but it was a very stressful time for them too. They adore my husband.
Of course, it'll be hard to deal with what I have done but we're both confident we'll get through this. Sports build character and my husband is strong man - sensitive but strong. Even when I told him everything he didn't yell at me or call me any names. I was devastated but never lost control of his emotions.
We'll need to make a lot changes in our lifestyle but right now we just want to enjoy the weekend. We both need it. And I feel so happy today.
Having received no responses to our request for an explanation we presume the allegation that this and opiel's thread are fake and likely part of an unseemly attempt to generate and~or steal content for another faux expert e=book and~or article as accurate.
Thank you to the anonymous tipster who helped us discover this situation.
Having received no responses to our request for an explanation we presume the allegation that this and opiel's thread are fake and likely part of an unseemly attempt to generate and~or steal content for another faux expert e=book and~or article as accurate.
Thank you to the anonymous tipster who helped us discover this situation.
Reminiscent of the "dustkitty" fiasco. The internet brings out the worse in some people. Or, in the "dustkitty" scenario, the worst in a group of college student out to have some fun at other people's expense. Naughty-naughty.
