My wife had an affair several years ago so I had little trust. I found that she was texting in a very flirtacious manner to another man so I kept a closer watch on things. She has an iPhone so I found a program called decipher text messages. It allowed me to see her text messages including many that were deleted. However I found that in iTunes I had to select the option to not automatically sync and also to back up only that way she couldn't tell if I was checking. This worked well. What didn't work I don't know how to catch. On her iPad she would use the incognito function in safari and log into a secret shared email where they would message each other and just send it to that email, so it never went to a second email. In this manner they were able to message back and forth and I was none the wiser. She wound up confessing to a sordid 3 month affair. we are working things out and they look good. Trust will be hard as she was VERY good at living two lives. I actually thought that those months were good uh until I found out the truth. It started as flirting that she thought was innocent until he grabbed her and kissed her. She resisted for awhile then gave in. Once she gave in he owned her. Beware flirting. Flirting is not innocent to BOTH parties. I say flirting leads to f___ing.

Welcome to MB.

Do you have spyware on her iPad and phone? It will log all her activity. You would see messages she types.

Who was the OM? Did you expose?

What EPs has she put in place?

Have you seen this?
Recovery After an Affair

Klove,

Are you interested in having a recovered, passionate marriage? When applied, MB plans can make your marriage better than it was before the affair.

I suggest reading the book, "Surviving an Affair". It lays out a map for recovery.

Welcome to MB.

AM

Which Spyware in particular is good for ipad?
The OM was a guy she met at the gym. She admitted to the affair and has severed all contact with him. She is getting several female friends to be contacts for her if she starts having trouble and we have changed gyms. I was having a very hard time with it until I found marriage builders. The sight has helped me make more sense of the situation and see where I was not meeting her needs. We are doing better. unfortunately she is pregnant and we don't know who the father is and he passed on at least one std to her (HPV) and we are checking for others. She was at a point where she just didn't care and decided to be selfish and she almost lost everything because of it. We revealed to his wife and she has forgiven my wife, but they are getting divorced (he didn't get std's from her before he passed to my wife)
We are hopeful and God is seeing us through it in amazing ways. We "stewed" over telling his wife and the day we contacted her was the day she prayed that God would give her direction in their marriage as it had not been good. Praise God

Try this out.

iPad keyloggers

she is pregnant and...he passed on at least one std to her (HPV) and we are checking for others...We revealed to his wife and she has forgiven my wife, but they are getting divorced (he didn't get std's from her before he passed to my wife)

...or the lying...woman...who is cozying up to you for protection in her "knocked up" condition got the STDs (and illegitimate spawn?) from yet another OM.

Remember, a wayward spouse rarely speaks the truth. FWIW, I do enjoy the mental image of WW, valiantly struggling to escape the cad's lustful embrace before pointing her toes to the ceiling and yielding.....regretfully. (And I bet each time was equally regretfully! ) It brings to mind Snidely Whiplash and Sweet Nell......

Better have a DNA test done as soon as the child is born.

For the first weeks after D-Day ww was lying through her teeth which was odd since she told me of the affair. Initially it was just making out and two sexual encounters. Every few days I would weezle out a truth and the pain would hit hard again We are going to counseling and she finally decided to let it all go. I beleive that it was just the one guy and he's a peice of work. The woman he is with now is his third wife and he's cheated on her before. his affair with my wife started at the end of september and he had slept with at least one woman over the spring/summer while coaching football in another country. He's 50 years old and ww is 31. He's a smooth talker. I'm thinking of a polygraph, but like I said we are doing very well now. I started this thread more to help others see what type of communication during affair can be tracked and what slips by. I'm focused on repair and being better at meeting her emotional needs while helping her find her weeknesses. We are planning a DNA test after birth.

My Full Story
I am 34 and fww is 31. We have two kids DS is 3 and DD is 6. We were married young but have been happy. When I was in college she went to dinner with her boss and on the way home he started touching her. she let him and they wound up having oral sex together. He was just moving to another state so there was no further contact. She told me a few months later (that was in 2003). She said she was flattered that a man as "great" as him would want her. Mind you my wife is smoking hot, she just doesn't see it. I forgave her but was never able to let it go. I dwelled on it and that led to me being emotionally distant. I worked a very tiring and stressfull job that left me drained and didn't give me much time in the day to communicate with her. This past summer we went to a marriage seminar at our church and worked things out. I was finally able to let go and trust her again. When I told her that she broke down in tears and told me how good it fealt to be trusted again. 1 or 2 months later she was cheating, all the while leading me to believe that everything was better. Turns out she was discontented and just going through the motions. We both go to the gym alot and men were "noticing" her and she liked it. She'd go early in the am so she could be home in time for me to go to work. At the end of her workout she'd sit in sauna for 15-20 minutes, thats where she met posom. He's typical football coach, knows what to say to make people feel good. So they talked and flirted. She thought it was innocent, and I told her that men do not see flirting as innocent. Flirting with a man is telling him that it is ok to proceed. Obviously she didn't listen. He made her feel good. She told me later that he would tell her she was beautiful. I tell her this all of the time, because she is gorgeous. "But I beleived it when he said it" Anyways they went on a hike (bad idea letting her go on recreational activities with om) but I was in a pickle. Did I trust her or not? She picked him up for hike and he kissed her, she resisted, then gave in. Groping and oral sex followed. she said she just didn't care anymore. She came home and acted as if nothing happened. She knew she made a mistake but instead of telling me there and ending it, she talked to him more and that led to sex. She'd meet him before the gym, at the gym, in the steam room. She was his and she gave him what he wanted. She said she thought it would only last a short time as he was supposed to be leaving the country to coach again. well after two months she finally realized that he just wanted sex. Then she found out she was pregnant (We were also having sex) he recommended an abortion, he wasn't ready to be a father (he has grown up children already) but wanted to keep meeting her for sex. I started a new job at this time so she wan't able to go to gym in mornings and things fizzled out due to time constraints. She was still talking to him though. Some of the things that she had said or ways she acted made me just a bit suspicious so I asked her if there was any chance the baby wasn't mine. She looked me in the eyes and said no, I beleived her. The next night she told me, leaving some things out "to protect me". the next few weeks were hell and every once in awhile with prodding she would reveal more, or admit to lies. But she ceased all contact with him. We worked on things for th enext month. I tried several times to get om to meet me over coffe and talk but he didn't have the courage to respond. We finall aggreed to tell OM's wife. She had suspected, but like I said, he's a good talker. So we met with her and fww told everything and answered any questions. They are getting a divorce. fww and I are working on things and the pain is much less. Our marriage is better now then it has been in years, but I need to focus on it not happening again. Her pitfalls are that she likes male attention and she didn't see flirting as bad. She also didn't see flaunting what God gave her as bad, she wanted male attention (alot of that came from her discontentment) With the Grace of God we are healing and trying to avoid LBers and keep our family together. She is learning through our counseler how to be content even when things aren't rainbows and lollypops.

Here are some good things to read.
Mulan's Long Rant on Flirting
Are Friends a Threat to Your Marriage?

What extraordinary precautions has your WW put in place?
What boundaries has she put in place?

Have you read all the articles in here?

Start Here First-Welcome Aboard

bh here. D-day was 2/2, she admitted to me without prompting. fww claims no contact. We have told his spouse, they are getting divorce. We are recovering very well. Does exposure to others come in at this stage since She is no longer in affair?
Also, I beleive her about no contact and she told him she won't contact him again. Does she need to write a NC letter? If so what should it entail?

Ask the MODS to merge your threads so posters know all the details.

Please watch this.

Infidelity: What Every Couple Should Know

We've watched the video. It seems with exposure it is to "stop" an affair. We are well on the road of recovery.

My Full Story
I am 34 and fww is 31. We have two kids DS is 3 and DD is 6. We were married young but have been happy. When I was in college she went to dinner with her boss and on the way home he started touching her. she let him and they wound up having oral sex together. He was just moving to another state so there was no further contact. She told me a few months later (that was in 2003). She said she was flattered that a man as "great" as him would want her. Mind you my wife is smoking hot, she just doesn't see it. I forgave her but was never able to let it go. I dwelled on it and that led to me being emotionally distant. I worked a very tiring and stressfull job that left me drained and didn't give me much time in the day to communicate with her. This past summer we went to a marriage seminar at our church and worked things out. I was finally able to let go and trust her again. When I told her that she broke down in tears and told me how good it fealt to be trusted again. 1 or 2 months later she was cheating, all the while leading me to believe that everything was better. Turns out she was discontented and just going through the motions. We both go to the gym alot and men were "noticing" her and she liked it. She'd go early in the am so she could be home in time for me to go to work. At the end of her workout she'd sit in sauna for 15-20 minutes, thats where she met posom. He's typical football coach, knows what to say to make people feel good. So they talked and flirted. She thought it was innocent, and I told her that men do not see flirting as innocent. Flirting with a man is telling him that it is ok to proceed. Obviously she didn't listen. He made her feel good. She told me later that he would tell her she was beautiful. I tell her this all of the time, because she is gorgeous. "But I beleived it when he said it" Anyways they went on a hike (bad idea letting her go on recreational activities with om) but I was in a pickle. Did I trust her or not? She picked him up for hike and he kissed her, she resisted, then gave in. Groping and oral sex followed. she said she just didn't care anymore. She came home and acted as if nothing happened. She knew she made a mistake but instead of telling me there and ending it, she talked to him more and that led to sex. She'd meet him before the gym, at the gym, in the steam room. She was his and she gave him what he wanted. She said she thought it would only last a short time as he was supposed to be leaving the country to coach again. well after two months she finally realized that he just wanted sex. Then she found out she was pregnant (We were also having sex) he recommended an abortion, he wasn't ready to be a father (he has grown up children already) but wanted to keep meeting her for sex. I started a new job at this time so she wan't able to go to gym in mornings and things fizzled out due to time constraints. She was still talking to him though. Some of the things that she had said or ways she acted made me just a bit suspicious so I asked her if there was any chance the baby wasn't mine. She looked me in the eyes and said no, I beleived her. The next night she told me, leaving some things out "to protect me". the next few weeks were hell and every once in awhile with prodding she would reveal more, or admit to lies. But she ceased all contact with him. We worked on things for th enext month. I tried several times to get om to meet me over coffe and talk but he didn't have the courage to respond. We finall aggreed to tell OM's wife. She had suspected, but like I said, he's a good talker. So we met with her and fww told everything and answered any questions. They are getting a divorce. fww and I are working on things and the pain is much less. Our marriage is better now then it has been in years, but I need to focus on it not happening again. Her pitfalls are that she likes male attention and she didn't see flirting as bad. She also didn't see flaunting what God gave her as bad, she wanted male attention (alot of that came from her discontentment) With the Grace of God we are healing and trying to avoid LBers and keep our family together. She is learning through our counseler how to be content even when things aren't rainbows and lollypops.

Exposure is much, much more than that. Exposure to family and close friends gives support to the marriage. The more people who know, the more people to hold your wife accountable. Dr Harley recommends that family, friends and any other key people in your lives are made aware of the affair.

Could you please break that up into paragraphs so folks can read it? thanks.

Here is the no contact letter that is in Surviving an AFfair. I would pick up that book and follow the program in it. That will get your marriage back on track.



here


[from SAA, pg 58]

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, XXXXX

Close family should know. Didn't you already tell some of your family?

Have you discussed how NC for life, with OM, needs to be a must?

What you should expose is the news of the affair, NOT any information related to the pregnancy. Just leave well enough alone. And most certainly, do not tell the OM about it.

Just presume this child is yours and leave it at that.

Threads have been merged.

And remain a strong NC for life.

Can you move?

She has agreed to NC and knows my del breakers
1. she contacts him
2. He contacts her and she doesn't immediately tell me
3. She sees him and doesn't immediately tell me.

He knows she is pregnant (she told him first which hurt) but I plan on avoiding any contact with him in the future about anything and everything.

I have not told any members of either of our families. just a few select friends that could support me without judging her.
We had been counseled by several people on it and we get "don't tell anyone who doesn't need to know as it will hurt your family more" and "do what God leads you to do" fww wants to follow the first plan obviously and I am trying to follow the policy of mutual agreement. In fww's case this may be the wise thing as she is EXTRAORDINARILY easily offended and I think would do more harm then good. We are debating on telling our parents but haven't decided yet.

Does the POJMA apply to exposure in this situation where the affair is definately over?

Sorry re-posting this in an easier to read format, didn't even think of it when I wrote it. It won't let me edit previous post.

My Full Story
I am 34 and fww is 31. We have two kids DS is 3 and DD is 6. We were married young but have been happy.

When I was in college she went to dinner with her boss and on the way home he started touching her. she let him and they wound up having oral sex together. He was just moving to another state so there was no further contact. She told me a few months later (that was in 2003). She said she was flattered that a man as "great" as him would want her. Mind you my wife is smoking hot, she just doesn't see it.

I forgave her but was never able to let it go. I dwelled on it and that led to me being emotionally distant. I worked a very tiring and stressfull job that left me drained and didn't give me much time in the day to communicate with her. This past summer we went to a marriage seminar at our church and worked things out. I was finally able to let go and trust her again. When I told her that she broke down in tears and told me how good it fealt to be trusted again. 1 or 2 months later she was cheating, all the while leading me to believe that everything was better. Turns out she was discontented and just going through the motions.

We both go to the gym alot and men were "noticing" her and she liked it. She'd go early in the am so she could be home in time for me to go to work. At the end of her workout she'd sit in sauna for 15-20 minutes, thats where she met posom. He's typical football coach, knows what to say to make people feel good. So they talked and flirted. She thought it was innocent, and I told her that men do not see flirting as innocent. Flirting with a man is telling him that it is ok to proceed.

Obviously she didn't listen. He made her feel good. She told me later that he would tell her she was beautiful. I tell her this all of the time, because she is gorgeous. "But I beleived it when he said it" Anyways they went on a hike (bad idea letting her go on recreational activities with om) but I was in a pickle. Did I trust her or not? She picked him up for hike and he kissed her, she resisted, then gave in. Groping and oral sex followed. she said she just didn't care anymore.

She came home and acted as if nothing happened. She knew she made a mistake but instead of telling me there and ending it, she talked to him more and that led to sex. She'd meet him before the gym, at the gym, in the steam room, in the sauna room. She was his and she gave him what he wanted. She said she thought it would only last a short time as he was supposed to be leaving the country to coach again.

well after two months she finally realized that he just wanted sex. Then she found out she was pregnant (We were also having sex) he recommended an abortion, he wasn't ready to be a father (he has grown up children already) but wanted to keep meeting her for sex. I started a new job at this time so she wan't able to go to gym in mornings and things fizzled out due to time constraints. She was still talking to him though.

Some of the things that she had said or ways she acted made me just a bit suspicious so I asked her if there was any chance the baby wasn't mine. She looked me in the eyes and said no, I beleived her. The next night she told me, leaving some things out "to protect me". the next few weeks were hell and every once in awhile with prodding she would reveal more, or admit to lies.

But she ceased all contact with him. We worked on things for th next month. I tried several times to get om to meet me over coffe and talk but he didn't have the courage to respond. We finally aggreed to tell OM's wife. She had suspected, but like I said, he's a good talker. So we met with her and fww told everything and answered any questions. They are getting a divorce.

fww and I are working on things and the pain is much less. Our marriage is better now then it has been in years, but I need to focus on it not happening again. Her pitfalls are that she likes male attention and she didn't see flirting as bad. She also didn't see flaunting what God gave her as bad, she wanted male attention (alot of that came from her discontentment) With the Grace of God we are healing and trying to avoid LBers and keep our family together. She is learning through our counseler how to be content even when things aren't rainbows and lollypops.


I failed to mention that OM is 50 years old, has children my wife's age and is on his 3rd marriage.

Items #2 and #3 are extremely problematic because they allow for continued contact. It is critical that all contact end by shutting off any avenue of potential contact. If there is a way for him to contact her, it should be shut off. If there is a way for her to see him, that way should be shut off. If you live close by, you need to MOVE AWAY so there are no chance meetings. Achieving no contact is the first vital step and you can't do step two until step one is done.


Does she agree to never be in contact with him again?


Since this is her second affair, you can't afford to cut any corners and can't afford to skip this step. Exposure is not a matter for POJA, but something YOU should do on your own. If you have been counseled to hide the affair from your families, you are getting bad advice. Dr Harley is a clinical psychologist who has specialized in recovery from infidelity for 40 years and he calls exposure "the most important first step towards recovery." You should tell all of your parents, close family and friends.

Adultery hurts your family. Lies hurt your family. Exposure of the affair will not harm your family. It will HELP your wife and give you some much needed support. Everyone should know, including any children over age 5.

There is absolutely no reason to keep this secret except that your wife might be embarrassed. She should be embarrassed so that is not a bad thing. But is a bad thing to hide the affair.



Nope!

Dr Harley gave this advice to a betrayed wife whose husbands affair had been over for SIX YEARS - the couple was arguing about exposure:


In short, you need to just expose the affair on your own. Don't argue or debate about it. Just do it and get it done. Don't make this a completely unnecessary point of contention. Will she be offended? Maybe so. Not nearly as much as you and the OM's wife are and neither of you volunteered for this. Your wife did.

p.s. since gyms are hotbeds for affairs, Dr Harley would tell you and your wife to stay out of them. You can set up your own home gym and work out together.

And I am sure I don't have to tell you that she has to stop flirting [a form of "courting"] and not have opposite sex friendships. Almost every affair on this forum, thousands going back 15 years started as an opposite sex friendship.

Married women who flirt are viewed as EASY and AVAILABLE by other men.

Your wife has very poor boundaries around men and until that changes your marriage will never be safe.

This is so sad and pitiful. Your wife views such a grave insult as "flattery." She doesn't understand that any man who comes onto a married woman has just spit in her face. It is the highest insult because he is telling her he believes she is cheap and easy.

She needs to understand this because I don't think she really gets how badly she has been insulted. She has been treated like an unpaid wh*re by these men.

That is the opposite of what we achieve here. Dr Harley does not teach that one should settle in marriage, but that one should make the marriage a place of rainbows and lollipops. It should become her greatest source of happiness. Marriage Builders would teach her not to just be content, because that state is a big reason why she has looked outside of her marriage for happiness. Marriage Builders would make her marriage such a happy place that she wouldn't need to look outside for happiness.

And we would teach her to remove the conditions that led to her affair. The first one being her membership at a gym.

Dude, let's clear up one very important thing, okay?

You said earlier something to the effect of "We're not sure who the father is," of the pregnancy. You should stop being blind to the facts. While you might not be "sure" (as in refusing to accept the blatant reality) WW is DAMN sure:

Then she found out she was pregnant He knows she is pregnant (she told him first which hurt).. he recommended an abortion, he wasn't ready to be a father...Some of the things that she had said or ways she acted made me just a bit suspicious so I asked her if there was any chance the baby wasn't mine. She looked me in the eyes and said no,

Whether or not you can put this behind you and move forward is a question only you have the ability to answer. It is, however, highly recommended by the MB principles that the BS have ALL the facts, and make decisions about his/her life choices (including any recovered marital future) fully informed of the true state of his marriage.

In the long term, denial does not work.

As to the child it could be either of ours since we were both having sex with her at the time. I am prepared for either outcome and am willing to raise the child as my own either way. We will be doing a DNA test regardless.
I understand what everyone is saying about exposure and I will consider it. Me making decisions without her or contrary to her desires was a huge Lb for her and was one of the things that was hurting our relationship.

She agrees with no contact and we have taken precautions to avoid chance encounters. Phone numbers will be changed this week as well as emails.

The benefits of exposure FAR, FAR outweigh any potential anger over exposure, though. Anger over exposure is a result of the FOG. And when her fog wears off she will thank you for exposure.

You can't use "lovebusters" as an excuse to skip this vital step. In marriages where the affairs are kept secret, we often see repeat affairs. You are already dealing with a serial cheater and just can't afford to skip this step, my friend.

You do understand that Dr Harley says this about exposure: "In my experience with thousands of couples who struggle with the fallout of infidelity, exposure has been the single most important first step toward recovery."

and "Many betrayed spouses are afraid that exposure will drive the unfaithful spouse further away. While it's true that unfaithful spouses usually feel betrayed and angry when their affair is exposed, I regard that reaction as being part of the fog that most addicts experience. When the fog has finally lifted, and the source of addiction no longer has control, the value of exposure is usually conceded by the addict himself."


You are mis-using the POJA to harm your marriage by using it as an excuse to avoid exposure. Dr Harley is very clear that the POJA does not apply to affairs or abuse.

I know it is scary to see your wife angry. But you can't use that as an excuse to avoid taking necessary steps to recover your marriage if you are serious about this. Keep in mind you are on AFFAIR #2 and if you cut corners again, will likely see AFFAIR #3.

Taking precautions is a good first step, along with changing phone #s and email addresses. Her agreement to no contact is absolutely meaningless. This is why it is so important to actually change the conditions that led to the affair AND remove any opportunities for contact.

What about the gym? Do you have a plan to quit the gym? A serial cheater should never set foot in a gym.

This makes sense but she is not in the fog. I will definately think on it.

Yes she has quit the gym, that was a must especially since she could have a chance meeting there

If she is not in the fog, then you shouldn't fear her anger because anger is a RESULT of the fog. An unfoggy, recovered wayward won't get mad about exposure.

I seriously doubt that she is not in the fog, but that is beside the point. The point is that it should be done regardless of how "angry" you anticipate she will be. A recovered, unfoggy wayward is not angry about exposure. It is a very necessary step if you are serious about saving your marriage.

What exactly are your concerns in regards to exposure?

That is great!!

Working out together is an EXCELLENT undivided attention activity. Have you considered setting up a home gym and working out together?

She would be angry over the embarressment (which she deserves). I am trying to avoid my family alienating her.

In exposure do you tell friends that live out of state?

It is ok if she is embarrassed, so don't let that concern you. She will get over it. And you should tell your family. You need their support. Yes, they will be upset with your wife for hurting you, but your wife can earn back their respect if she tries very hard. This doesn't have to alienate her if she puts in the effort and assures them she will never do this again.

That will be a much needed experience for your wife. You shouldn't deprive her of that lesson.

IF they are close and can be a support to your family.

I am inclined to not expose POSOM anymore than I have, which was to his wife. Reason being that if the baby is his I don't want to give him any reason to try to weasel his way in (even if only for vengeance.) I am in contact with his wife and I think I will ask her opinion.

Does that mean you haven't exposed to the wife, or...? That first sentence has me a bit confused.

I agree with you there. I would seriously lay off of him and stay away. You have not told her about the pregnancy, have you? I would just go along as if this is your child and not take any other actions unless you are faced with a court order from ratboy. And if that happens, Dr Harley has very specific instructions that are designed to protect your marriage and keep that rat away: [go read this entire thread and listen to the radio clips, here ]

He DID expose to the OMW but not to any other of his contacts.

Ah, okay. Sorry about that.

Dr Harley discusses why spouses become serial cheaters:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=132#

klove

There is a lot of humble pie eaten by both you and WW as you begin to heal. Exposure is embarassing for everyone but that embarassment pales in comparison to healing your marriage. Affairs are like a wound to your body. If the wound is not exposed, it cannot be treated and infection will set in.

I went through the same thought process that you are going through. I trickled my exposure and wish that I hadn't. The problem is, I cannot go back and do it correctly.

PLEASE listen to the vets here. This program works when it is followed precisely. Anything other than that is a gamble at best.

I tried searching the site for a key concept I've seen quoted here, but whether it's fatigue or just total blind spots and it's right in front of my face - I can't find it.

What publication or key concept is it where Harley says,

Or anything close like this.

That is the rule of protection.

Rule of protection
Here you go

-My FWW affair physically ended early January, but kept talking to POSOM until D-day 2/2.
-She sent him an email on D-day telling him she would never contact him again, etc etc. I did not get to see this letter, but I do believe her.
-FWW is pregnant, paternity unknown. We fervently wish for POSOM to continue to have no interest in pregnancy
-She has not tried to contact him and he has not tried to contact her
-Exposed to POSOM's wife, they are getting divorced
-Should we do official NC letter in light of the pregnancy and not wanting to give him a reason to change his mind and that there has been no contact for 2 months?

If OM drops off the end of the earth .... don't stop him.

No letter.

I agree.

Thank you both for your thoughts, I was leaning that way as well. I just wish I knew what her letter to him said (completely)

Did you ever ask her what exactly did she say?

Chances are, you wouldn't be pleased with it. A fogged out wayward "goodbye" letter, especially from a WW, include nary an admission that the affair was wrong and harmful.

She said that she couldn't see him, needed to focus on family, don't contact, etc. Part of me thinking of doing a NC letter now, was for her to point out to him (he is unrepentant, they are getting divorce because he truly is a POS, ended his last affair 2 months before starting with my wife)how awful the affair was, how selfish and stupid they both were. Maybe make a dent in his pride and selfishness. And like I said, she may have had some lovey, feely stuff in there for him. But I am inclined to let sleeping dogs lay.

Because of the OC dynamic it's best to not contact him. That could/would give him the opportunity to make trouble.

What are her actions showing you?

Thanks for the replies.

Her actions are repentant and show a desire to recover.

We'll not do a NC letter and let things go as they are. Thank you all

I'm debating having my fww take a polygraph. I have read that it is best to keep it to 2 or 3 questiions, is that correct? Also about how much does the test cost to complete?

KL,

One approach, mentioned on MB, is to make up a list of every conceivable sexual, emotional and financial question related to the affair and possible past affairs or dishonesty.

The tester then asks did you answer all of the questions truthfully, along with a few control questions.

God Bless
Gamma

Sticking to one thread is helpful, Klove;

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2717324&page=6

This allows us to review what has and hasn't been done in your recovery.

For instance; did you ever expose the affair? Track down the OM? Expose to his family? Send an NC letter? Did your wife provide you with written EP's? Are you getting 20+ hours of UA time in EVERY WEEK? Are you eliminating your Love Busters? What are your wife's top 3 EN's? What are yours? What are you doing to help your wife to meet them?


You are "only" 4 months out, but I have to question if there are other things contributing to your sudden need for a poly - like, maybe you are falling out of love with your wife.


It's often better to buckle down on ENs/LBs and UA time than to bring up the affair again.

Everything is going well. Exposure was done. We are getting along well and fww is following EP's very well. We are getting UA every chance we get, But she lied so much in the beginning I am not confidant that I know everything. I have been debating a poly to settle my mind.

Are you getting 20+ hours a week?


What is being done in regards to EPs involving Radical Honesty?

Do you have all of her passwords - keyloggers on devices if appropriate? Does she check in with you through the day?

My FWW no longer takes lunches at work, she comes home. She calls or texts frequently through the day. I drop in randomly when I can.

Trust is going to be established through verification behavior.


Though, you could always.... write the radio show!

Though, I am speculating Dr. Harley's advice won't be much different at this point.

KL,

If you are a person with a long memory and this will be eating at you 5, 10 or 20 years from now then do it NOW! It's not just that you don't know but that she and OM share intimacies that you are excluded from.

At this point my W feels entitled to keep the details of her and OM2 secret 20+ years ago. W may truly have forgotten some or claim to. I think I have a fix now on OM2 and will be speaking with him in July.

God Bless
Gamma

Have you seen this?
Polygraph Testing

Any other tragedies in your life you would like to revisit?

Any family members that died horribly that you wanna talk about right now?

Childhood traumas?


Did someone kick your puppy one time?



I was molested as a child, maybe I should track down my molestor and ask them about their motivations, as I'm sure it will do loads of good for my present life.


What do you think?

Thanks Brainhurts, I think I had seen that a few months ago and forgotten about it.

HoldHerHand,
yes we are doing all of that and I am confidant of her current behavior. My concern is that she had a different affair and is afraid that if I find out I will divorce.

HHH,

Any other tragedies in your life you would like to revisit?

Not really, most of those have been resolved, which is where OM2 differs. W also will only admit to trickles, but did admit to never feeling the same afterward.

I don't know if finding out will help my W lose her guilt and love me again, but it is the only remedy at my disposal.

I was molested as a child, maybe I should track down my molestor ...

No you should beat whoever it is down, by this time you likely have the upper hand. There is a concept of just compensation.

God Bless
Gamma

Man, I really like HHH's responses here.

First off, we can't tell enough about your situation to advise you, since you put this on a whole new thread.

Second of all, you didn't even tell us what you are wanting to know the truth about. How can we possibly tell you if it is worth it when you didn't tell us what you want to ask? There are a million and one questions that betrayed spouses want to ask later that are worth it, and only a handful that are worth it. Most of them are irrelevant and only harmful dwelling on the past - what you need in those cases is not a polygraph, but a commitment to not dwell on the past and to make the present satisfactory!

Write Dr. Harley an email at his radio show and tell him specifically what you are wanting to know from your wife and ask him if he would recommend a polygraph, or something else. This is serious enough you do not want to pick and choose whichever advice you like here and wind up screwing up something badly.

Why are you answering for the original poster? Or are you cluttering up his thread with your situation? It's hard enough to keep it straight without you making it about you.


Where in the world would the idea of "Finding out might help my W lose her guilt and love me again" come from???? That is NOT how Marriage Builders says romantic love is built.

Please stop pushing your own opinions here and join the club of learning what Dr. Harley actually advises.

Here are two reasons I suggest you forget re-traumatizing your wayward wife and instead just recover your marriage.

What is it you're wanting to know?
Are you just dwelling on the past?
Did she give you all the details of the affair so that proper EPs could be put into place?
Is she giving you reason to doubt her other than she lied a lot at first? (ALL waywards lie, btw).

From what little you've told us, I don't think you should. This has the potential of being very damaging to your recovery. Is the affair still being brought up this late in the game?

Write Dr. Harley before bringing this up with her. It's risky this late into recovery, and you need his professional advice.

Gamma is answering for himself.


You may notice his previous post where he is now, 20 years after the fact, going to hunt down and talk with an OM about his FWW's affair all that time ago.

Gamma has never stopped bringing up the affair in his own mind and chooses to not only dwell on it, but wants to radically drag it into the present.


I was being an [censored]. I'm not apologetic for it.


There is a certain Adam Sandler movie where someone brings up something painful to him and his response is "My parents died when I was 10, you wanna talk about that, too?"

It's a commentary on dwelling on past pains.


Back on subject -


I stand by my original assessment; you are better off to focus on other things at this point. It's doubtful that any more possible details are actually going to do any better for your recovery than FOLLOWING THE PLAN, Klove.

I understand, and we are following plan. But honesty is a big EN for me. I was toying with the idea, but seeing the cost I don't think it is worth it.

The cost is resetting your LB$ and your recovery back to D-Day.

The benefit? Questionable.

If you allow yourself to dwell, question after question after question may just continue to come up indefinitely.


I understand. I also know that it will just keep you stuck in that frame of mind. Case in point above.

KLL,

I like that you started a new thread to ask such a valuable question. It allows those not following your main thread to give input.

As far as a polygraph, I'd recommend it highly.

It is best to discuss the format of questions with the person you are going to have give the poly. They will give you goofd input and direction at that time.

Just the idea of pursuing a poly is going to help you put some of the demons, in your mind, to rest....

The cost varies from city to city.... approx $500 is a reasonable budget though.

The recoveries I've seen where a polygraph is asked for and completed, thrive.

As a FWS, there is nothing I wouldn't do to help my spouse in recovery..... That's part of recovery!

Gamma,

I'm so sorry you are still tortured because of the secret separate life your wife created. It makes it even harder when the wayward spouse is unwilling to be honest and disclose the answers their spouse needs. All BS's deserve the truth of their own marital history, I hope that you can find some peace when you talk to OM #2. The mental anguish and 20 years of lies must be like torment.

God Bless!

A valuable letter that you might want to print of for your spouse.

It's called Joseph's Letter. My wife printed it and left it for me to read.

(Joseph's Letter)


"To Whomever,

"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.

"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.

"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."

(end of Joseph's Letter)

Not all EN should be met. Dr. Harley was saying on the radio show the other day that he has an EN for "being the boss." But, he says, that requiring his wife to meet that EN for him would be detrimental to their marriage. People also have an EN for being an alcoholic, or any other destructive behavior.

If your wife has cut off all contact, is following EPs, and is working to make Just Compensation with you by building a romantic marriage, then this EN you feel to dwell on her affair will very likely fade.

This got lost in the shuffle.



What information leads you to believe this, Klove?

I know the feeling. I really do.


However, for me it is based on hindsight - the fact that an affair was nearly unavoidable due to the poor boundaries my wife previously had, and that because of that, a minimum of boundary crossings could be possible.


So, it comes down to a cost-versus-benefit analysis; does a suspicion, strengthened by hindsight, require possibly bringing the past into the present and resetting recovery... even if my suspicion is wrong?


Obviously you have a right to know what has happened to you without your consent or knowledge.

I would again suggest writing Dr. Harley... which is not only free, but actually "pays" if your letter is read on-air. I have had two letters on the radio show - the first one got forgot, but on the second I got HNHN and HNHNfP for free!

Certainly worth the cost, sir!

Bringing up her affair again this late is a big risk to your recovery. As HHH said, you risk resetting EVERYTHING you and she has accomplished back to square 1.

Talk to Dr. Harley first.

]

klove, can you be more specific about this? What makes you think there was another affair? What has your wife told you about it?

HPB, I would just point out that the person Gamma calls OM2 was from before they married. Gamma found out about the infidelity before the marriage, too, but still married his wife, so that event should be off the table for discussion forever.

Gamma is now consumed with wanting to know the details of the sex they enjoyed, since he did not know at the time that the affair was a PA. His fiancee lied and told him it was an EA. This is what he wants to ask this man about, since his wife won't tell him any sexual details. (The events took place over 20 years ago, BTW.)

Please see This thread if you want to see the history as far as Gamma has told it.

This is a gigantic threadjack and not fair on the poster who came here looking for help. Gamma should not have injected his own obsession with events that he knew about before he was married into this poster's thread, and we should not nurture his obsession on this thread. It's up to him if he wants to seek out so-called OM2 and question him in July, but his need has nothing in common with this poster's need to know the truth of the affair in his marriage.

I would like to know, too.

The Policy of Radical Honesty

Reveal to your spouse as much
information about yourself as you know;
your thoughts, feelings, habits, likes,
dislikes, personal history, daily activities,
and plans for the future.

To help explain this policy, I have broken it down into four parts:


1. EMOTIONAL HONESTY: Reveal your emotional reactions, both positive and negative, to the events of your life, particularly to your spouse's behavior.


2. HISTORICAL HONESTY: Reveal information about your personal history, particularly events that demonstrate personal weakness or failure.


3. CURRENT HONESTY: Reveal information about the events of your day. Provide your spouse with a calendar of your activities, with special emphasis on those that may affect your spouse.


4. FUTURE HONESTY: Reveal your thoughts and plans regarding future activities and objectives.

Continuation of Dr. Harley and honesty;

Granted, dishonesty can be a good short-term solution to marital conflict. It will probably get you off the hook for a few days or months or keep the problem on the back burner. But it's a terrible long-term solution. If you expect to live with each other for the next few years and still be in love, dishonesty can get you into a great deal of trouble.


Because there are so many out there who advocate dishonesty in marriage, I will describe the four parts of my Policy of Radical Honesty, and explain to you why I think they are so important in marriage.

HPB,

If this is about my post, then I think we should take it off this thread. I'd be happy to discuss it on OT, if you're interested.

I don't think there is any disagreement that klove needs to get historical and current honesty from his wife about the affair, so there is no need to convince anyone of this using Dr H's article.

If couples work the MB Program they fill out the HISTORICAL HONESTY questionnaires and only then is it off the table...

If the WS weasels out of the truth, it is up to the BS whether they want to pursue it.

SC,

I don't believe the RULE of Radical Honesty is Off topic at all on a thread about a BS asking about a polygraph. It's very appropriate IMO.

My post and some posts before it were about Gamma, though, and that is very off-topic on this thread.

And of course, by capitalizing it as a rule, it makes it even more important.


Though, another RULE is; once all the details of the affair are known, it is not to be talked about again.

It is certainly common for a BS, having hashed out the affair with the WS, to have a burning need for more, and more, and more details... because once a WS has established their history of marital dishonesty, no answers to questions are really satisfying. Another question always seems to come up.

Dr. Harley knows this. There have been several private forum posts quoted, and I would venture it's on MB radio weekly - quit bringing up the affair.


You can raise the hammer of Radical Honesty for secondary gain, and wreck your marriage and/or recovery.


This isn't off-hand advice, it's standard.


The rationale behind Klove's question isn't unheard of, which is why we want to know;


Klove, what leads you to believe there may have been another affair? <----

***EDIT***

Moderator note: Please stop the bickering on this thread, and please make sure that the thread sticks to helping the original poster with his situation.

Critical part here....

As long as the DETAILS are known!

This is where I am coming from. My fww first had a very short pa in 2003. She has had horrible boundaries her whole life. We moved in 2006 and she was depressed. Looking back I have a feeling it was withdrawl from an affair. She says I know everything. I am not sure.

The main reason I want to be sure is that eventually it will come out, things like that always do. Like I tell my wife, I will always find out eventually somehow. I'd rather get the truth now, early in recovery then to find out a year from now.

We have had an understanding that anything that she lied about that she has not revealed to me yet, she will tell me if she remembers (there were alot of lies so every once in awhile she remembers one and lets me know the truth) and anything else she thinks I should know she will tell me.

2 nights ago she remembered that at the beginning as they were trying to find a place to meet, they met (not for sex, but kissing and fondling) in my sons preschool parking lot (a church), and also gave me a better understanding of the events of their first physical contact. Not intimate details as I have asked her to not tell me those. But the interaction that lead to her laying in his bed while he tried to kiss her.

I have had a rough time since then because of that and for that reason I have decided to ask her to not discuss it anymore. I will have a paternity test completed for my two kids and call it good.

Thanks everyone for your imput. I think it is better to know then for it to eat you up for along time, but I think I need to be satisfied with what I have.

Here is the thing, there is one RULE for known affairs and there is quite another for UNKNOWN affairs. For example, if he has all the details about a known affair, it should never be brought up again. Done, finito!

If there is a suspected affair that he does not have the full truth about, she must give him the facts in order to move on.

He needs to have the full facts about EVERY AFFAIR in order to move on. Once that has happened, the subject should not be brought up again unless new conditions arrive.

If a BS has reason to believe that another affair has taken place and feels his spouse is lying, then that WS needs to do whatever it takes to assure her BS of the truth, including a polygraph.

BINGO!

I pray you find some peace once you have the answers you need.

klove, the truth about this should of course be pursued. We always recommend a polygraph to BSs whose WS has lied and confused the details to the point where the BS does not know what happened during the affair. We also recommend them when there is a suspicion of another affair as in your case, if it is thought that the WS won't come clean on his or her own.

You are entitled to know the truth about your own marriage, and if you are correct to ask for a polygraph if you've been bamboozled by your WS in the past. We would always suport you on that.

You see, this was not clear from your initial question to this thread, or even when you mentioned the possibility of another affair later.

If you had made it clear that you were talking about a possible hidden affair, you would have been told to go for a polygraph right away.

Please arrange one now, using the advice on the thread that BrainHurts linked, and also HerPapaBear's advice to consult with the polygraph tester about the questions. Polygraphs tests are very much supported here and by Dr Harley where lying about, or hiding, an affair is an issue.

I would say that your wife is contributing to the problem but "sprinkling you with truth nuggets."

We have another poster whose wife did something similar... for a couple years.

That recovery has limped along in a crippled state because of this.


It also appears that your wife is a serial adulteress.


So... given that, I would suggest laying out a timeline for your marriage, and questions you may have... and, yes, schedule a polygraph. Folks here can help you set up your questions.

Let your wife know that you are going to have her do a polygraph, and some time before the test, give her an opportunity to be honest.


And, once the polygraph is completed... once all the affairs and info are laid out... it's time to stop bringing it up, and focus on PREVENTING FUTURE AFFAIRS.

klove, you are getting good advice. Make an appt for a polygraph and 2 days before the test hand your wife a list of your questions and ask her to answer them all honestly before the test. Make it clear you expect her to pass the test but you are giving her one last chance to come clean.

The polygraph will only have 2-3 questions, but one of those questions MUST BE: are there any other affairs your husband does not know about?

Make that one of the questions on your list. Keep your list focused on FACTS and not feelings.

Agree. This is recipe for disaster. It is a death of a thousand cuts that will keep you both triggered for YEARS. You just need the general facts about the affair and if she remembers some crumb later, she needs to just keep it to herself.

My understanding is that the problem is less about the facts of the known affair and more about the suspected unknown affair. I think that a hidden affair is a vital fact for any BS to pursue.

Agreed!

Exactly.

Have you snooped?

I will talk to her tonight. I am not going to do polygraph, just going to move on doing just paternity test for the kids and move on. There is no evidence of another affair, just a gut feeling. I will be satisfied with a confirmed paternity for my kids.

What are you going to talk to her about tonight?

That I'm not going to do polygraph and that I don't want to hear more about the affair.

Klove: You wrote


But then you referred to "the affair" in answer to Prisca's question, as if you knew there was only 1 affair:


Have you resigned yourself to believing your FWW's claim that there was only 1 affair? Your suspicions regarding an undisclosed affair are perfectly legitimate. If your plan is to simply try to squelch those suspicions, I'm afraid it won't work. And it could actually cripple your recovery. You may always wonder if she has been hiding the fact that she actually had more than 1 affair, and dragging you through a false recovery.

Moreover, you said that openness and honesty is an important emotional need of yours. Dr. Harley is very clear that spouses have an obligation to meet each other's most important emotional needs, and dishonesty is a huge lovebuster. If you allow this situation to continue indefinitely, I'm afraid it could eventually cause you to fall out of love with her.

Last nigt we talked and I told her that I won't do a polygraph, but that if she lies now and I find out then we are through. She has a large self preservation instinct naturally and being 7 months pregnant it is even greater and I'm trusting that. I will do a paternity test this week or next and I am confidant that I will now be able to move forward.

I didn't realize your wife is currently pregnant. Regardless of whether her pregnancy could affect the results of a polygraph test, I wouldn't recommend it until after the new baby has been delivered. However, I would definitely recommend it at that time. (She may believe that you will immediately leave if she tells you the whole truth, and since she is pregnant, she can't bring herself to take that risk at this time.)

Are you just planning to do a paternity test on the 2 older children, or are you also planning to do a paternity test on the new baby after it is born?

Ok - for one thing, you should notify the mods, and have this merged with your main thread.

Secondly - I see no indication that you ever exposed your wife's most recent affair.

Bud, you have GOT to do this to protect your marriage, and keeping it a secret will only DRIVE YOUR RESENTMENT.

Trust me.

You don't have to mention anything about questionable paternity, but with your wife's history, you NEED they eyes of friends and family to help protect and preserve your marriage.


There has been kind of a lacksy-daisy approach to implementing the steps here, and it has set you back, dude.


Again, given her history, I wouldn't quite call off a poly yet.


Your marriage needs radical change... and your wife needs transparency and accountability, not "trust."

We will also be doing paternity test on the baby.

We exposed and it went well as the affair was over and we were already working on recovery. I am thankful that I didn't have to go through what some other members did trying to end the affair.

Right now we have too many medical bills coming up with the pregnancy to be able to afford the Poly, and I am satisfied with the current arrangements.

Threads merged.

I'm so glad the threads were merged because your statements have been very contradictory! In a different thread, you admitted that you never did a full exposure. Now, you are claiming that you did. Which is true? And in a different thread, you claimed that you knew she already had at least 2 affairs, but you later referred to "the affair," suggesting you believe there was only 1 affair. In addition, you previously wrote that you were unsure of the new baby's paternity. But in a different thread, you said you would be satisfied if you knew the older children's paternity, and said you would let the subject drop once that testing was done. You said you were having it done within the next few weeks, which means you planned to drop the subject before the new baby was born and able to have a paternity test.

Your wife has had 2 affairs that you've disclosed to us, and I suspect she's had more affairs than that. Obviously, your refusal to properly expose your wife's affairs has been enabling her. Moreover, you aren't even giving straight answers here. For example, when MelodyLane explained that your wife shouldn't be going to a gym to workout (especially since your wife began one of her affairs at a gym!), you responded that your wife had quit the gym. However, you neglected to mention that your wife had simply quit that gym and then joined a new gym! (You must have forgotten you'd disclosed that in a different post.)

Posting contradictory statements in multiple threads is not going to help you save your marriage.

Jessica, She had a one night stand in 2003 and a 6 month affair ending in feb. I was concerned of other affairs. I exposed after those posts questioning exposure.

I am doing paternity tests on our two children as I have believed them to be mine and with last affair now question it. I have been planning on doing paternity test on baby from the beginning as I have known his paternity is in question since Feb. Only now questioning other two kids paternity.

Wife quit gym where other man goes and we both joined a very small community center that has a few weights and a great pool for the kids.

Statements are only contradictory if you assume nothing happens unless it is posted about here.

We have to assume based on the information that is posted here, though. We aren't mind readers, dude.

There are are prescribed steps to work this out, and if you don't tell us that you have taken them, we will not assume that you have. We will assume that you have not.

Clear as mud?

You previously stated that she quit the old gym and then you and she joined a new gym. Now you are referring to the new gym as a "community center," as if changing the name makes it any less risky. You have completely missed the point. Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) are intended to prevent a future affair by eliminating the conditions that made an affair possible. Working out in a public place is a condition that made one of her affairs possible, so her public workouts must be eliminated. It makes no difference whether the public workouts occur in a gym or in a community center; public workouts are off limits to her!

Also, her one-night stand was as much of an extramarital affair as her 6-month relationship. You told us that you exposed the one-night stand to no one; and you only exposed the 6 month affair to OM's wife. Obviously, neither of those count as a Marriage Builders "exposure." You just said that you went back and did a full exposure after that was pointed out on your thread. To whom did you go back and expose the one-night stand? To whom did you go back and expose the 6-month relationship?

Lastly, the fact that you are getting the paternity tests on all three kids proves that you don't realy believe your assertion that she "only" had a one-night stand and a 6-month relationship several years later. Obviously, it isn't possible for your 3 and 6 year olds to have been conceived by a single one-night stand.

You wrote

Then you wrote


Why in the world would you think it is okay for her to be "flaunting what God gave her" in a swimsuit in front of all the dads who frequent your community pool in the summer? She is a serial cheater, and your lack of EPs is making it easy for her to continue. If your spouse has a history of alcoholism, you don't shouldn't trust your spouse to hang out in a bar. The EPs you need to implement are common sense...

Jessica, your conceerns are noted and I will think on them. I only have a gut feeling there may have been others and I am only doing the paternity on my two older children so that I KNOW KNOW KNOW that they are mine. I am moving on otherwise. Yes I did exposure.

I asked these questions previously, and you avoided answering them:

1. To whom did you expose your wife's one-night stand?

2. To whom did you expose your wife's 6-month affair?

*I'm asking for specifics because I'm afraid you never did a full, MB "exposure" of each of your wife's affairs.

I exposed to those who are involved in our lives and I only exposed her recent affair as the previous one was 10 years ago. Her affair was over so there was no need for them to come down on her to end the affair, just to watch/help her avoid another one.

KL,

I only exposed her recent affair as the previous one was 10 years ago.

Do you know who the BW was in the one from 10 years ago, do her a favor and let her know the truth about her marriage.

God Bless
Gamma

Gamma, I had thought about this and initially rejected it as it was so long ago. You think it is a good idea to do so it seems.

Yes. It IS. A crime was committed against a poor, unsuspecting wife 10 years ago. Her hound-dog husband rolls into the driveway every night, content in the knowledge that he got away with it. And he did, didn't he.

He's still screwing around on her, because HEY, he gets away with that. And she has NO IDEA. Because there are people who are helping him hide his little secret.

Um...you're in that group, klove. An enabler. Just so you know.

LK,

And part of the reason your WW had this horrible recent affair is because there was no downside to her previous affair, she never even had to make the apology to the OMW she injured.

This is how most affairs are "resolved" btw, the broken marriage goes on for years without true intimacy every being reestablished. The betrayed spouse never recovers and the wayward spouse never completely confesses or makes amends.

God Bless
Gamma

Gamma, I agree, I held my resentment inside for years. For FWW and I we are finally working at rebuilding what our marriage should have been. I've tracked down some phone numbers for her. I'm hoping to get through her private number. She is a doctor in California and I have her practice number but I will only use that one if I can't get through any other way. Thanks.

klove, many/most doctors keep their private numbers private. That's how they're able to sleep nights without patients calling them. I would suggest you call the number you've got. Let the receptionist know who you are and that you have extremely personal information for her.

Tell the receptionist you'll hold the line until she is available.

For the umpteenth time, specifically, to whom have you exposed your wife's 6-month affair? Both of your families? Your eldest child? Your friends and your wife's friends? Your clergy? OM's family and friends? I have repeatedly asked you to answer this question, and you have repeatedly avoided answering it. (Obviously, "those who are involved in our lives" does not tell me whom, specifically, you've exposed to.) In addition, when asked whether both of your wife's affairs have been fully exposed, you've provided deceptive answers such as "exposure has been done." I give up.

Jessica, Since you don't know me, our friends, him, or his friends lumping it into those who are involved is easier than typing out all who are. yes clergy, friends, family, aquantances at the gym who know both of them. people at my work who don't even know my wife. No I did not expose previous affair but will do so.

I started the polygraph thread to get two simple questions answered to help with our fairly smooth recovery, not to get the third degree about something that was done 2 or 3 months ago.

Question about facebook exposure. I have never been asked to pay anything to send a message to someone I am not friends with. What am I missing? Is it just going to spam box?

It's going to their other box.

how do I get it changed? There is no option for me to send another way. Although I am on my tablet rather than full computer. Maybe that has something to do with it?

Yes that is it. If you go onto a full computer you will have the option.

Great thanks Brain

You're welcome.

Don't get too frustrated, just remember that sometimes posters need a little help ***EDIT***

I know you say your recovery is going smooth, but have the two of you discussed what you'll need in the way of EP's?

The goal is to affair proof your marriage.

When I feel frustrated, I chalk it up to others not having an understanding of what I�m trying to convey in my posts. It may be my posting style or it may be their reading skills, either way I always feel better when I look at it with that perspective. Even though you expressed that it feels like you�re being given the third degree, I hope you�ll continue to post.

I agree.

On reading your posts before this happened, I got the impression that you were avoiding giving specific details of exposure. I have seen that when that happens on this board, it is sometimes because the poster does not want to admit that they did not follow the guidance that they were given by the posters here.

Exposure can feel morally wrong the first time it is suggested; I know I found the idea of exposing to OWH inconceivable before I came across this forum. Within days of D Day I found all the personal details I needed to expose to OWH, and yet for about 18 months I hung onto these and did nothing, because it seemed morally wrong to break up her marriage. During all that time, the affair continued and I nearly had a mental breakdown after each new D Day. I did not fear my H leaving me, because I knew that I didn't want a man who wanted OW more than he wanted me, but I did worry terribly about her H and children - and so I did not expose.

We see worry and trepidation about exposure all the time on this forum. It can feel dangerous in that it might blow up our own marriage. We had a poster apparently arrive at and leave this forum just yesterday, unable to get the courage to expose his WW's affair. Yet experienced posters know that proper exposure can end an affair immediately and ensure that it does not reignite.

When that poster pushed you for details because of what seemed like gaps and inconsistencies in your posts, she was trying to guide you to do a thorough job and minimise the risk of a false recovery, which is a horror that does not bear description. You took offence at that - and, I might add, you continued to lump people together as "friends, family..." not answering her questions about children and other specific family members.

It's a shame that you took offence. The question was asked with the best interests of your marriage at heart. She wouldn't post here to give you "the third degree" merely because she has nothing better to do with her time.

I understand, all of the exposure, ep, etc have been done and are in place. I don't have a lot of time to post as I do it at work so that we can spend UA time when I am at home. I appreciate everything here.