I'm new to the board, and have spent the last few day's reading through everything - not just in the discussion forum, but as much info as I can from the site in general.
My question is: Is the discussion's in the forum specifically for those who have survived an affair as the betrayed spouse? or can the "wayward" spouse's post and ask for advice as well?

Thanks!

Yes, certainly! Welcome to Marriage Builders.

both for betrayed spouses and former wayward spouses

Welcome to MB.

Absolutely!

Best to start here;

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5059_qa.html

Mrs_cem,

My question is: Is the discussion's in the forum specifically for those who have survived an affair as the betrayed spouse?

Yes and for free!

Or you can pay a marriage counselor $100 an hour to prolong your pain and end your marriage.

God Bless
Gamma

Welcome to the forum!
We are glad you are here.
We are pro healthy-happy-marriage.
That about sums it up.

You are not quite 4 months into the process.
How's it going?

My H and I have been married 9 years this July, we have two children and are both 36. I am the WW, my affair lasted 9 weeks.
During the last 8 1/2 years, leading up to the affair, my H was very for lack of a better word "in to himself", he paid next to no attention to me, was un-affectionate (seemd to cringe at touch) and had what I can only guess as to some form of "Sexual Anorexia", intimacy between was as long as three years without.
I had set up numerous sessions with marriage therapists only to have him go once and the refuse to go again, I was open with him about my sadness and feelings on his behaviour towards me - it all added up to nothing.
I'm Feb of this year, I got a msg from an old friend (one I'd known for 15 years) asking me to go have a coffee - I did, I thought nothing of going BUT that was the start.
Without going into the griddy details to much - my H found out, I was honest with him, I never denied or tried to hide it. He began divorce proceedings and permanent custody orders immediatley. The OM threatened to end it with me,if I refused to move in with him. I realized I didn't love the OM, that I wanted my family back. My H agreed to try a reconcilliation under certain conditions - I was to have NO contact either direct or indirect with OM, I got rid of my facebook account, changed my cell number, gave H access to my email/bank accounts and phone, I signed the legal seperation he drafted to "feel safe", I've given him total disclosure. I've accepted what I did, I haven't "passed" blame, I've done EVERY THING my H has asked and yet it seems to not be enough - I don't know what else I can do, I get it that he's hurt and angry and it will take time, but I feel like I'm never going to stop being punished for it.

Thank you for the replies! I wasn't sure and certainly didn't want to step on toes by posting if I shouldn't be.

- Pepper - thank you for asking, I posted a bit on "our" story.

Hi MrsCen, it sounds you have taken the first steps towards recovery but stopped there. The next step has to be to create a happy, romantic marriage. OTHERWISE, you will be left with a crippled version of the pre-affair marriage. His resentment will grow every year and so will your unhappiness.

But you don't have to be like this if you follow this program to the letter. The program will help you fall in love again. Do you have the book Survivng an Affair?

A couple more questions:

1. have you ended ALL - I do mean ALL - contact with the OM?

2. is the OM married, and if so, did your husband inform his wife?

3. have you given your husband all the facts about the affair?

4. will your husband come here and let us help him?

Yes, I have ended ALL contact with OM - different phone number, email address, we don't socialize with the same groups. He was not married or attached at the time.I have given all the details as my H has asked - I wasn't sure if I should volunteer what's not brought up? My H is here on the website, he's the one who initially sent me the links and asked me to start reading.

Um yes, you should volunteer everything. Your BH is already terribly damaged by what you did, and the damage from "trickle truth" is even worse. Every time he thinks he knows everything, and can think about healing, BOOM something else comes along. Get it all out in the open, so he can begin to heal.

Glad you're both here - it's the best place to be, under the circumstances.

Does he have a posting name?

This is pretty typical. Love bank draining plus opportunity to connect with an old "friend". Love bank deposits are made. Adultery ensues. You understand the dynamics, right?


BH's love bank was already also very close to empty. You understand that as well, right?


What a hero.


If OM had not thrown you under the bus, you may have been willing to keep your love bank open to OM.

Adultery is wrong. Even if you still carried "love" for OM, it would still be wrong.
This is the principle that will protect your family/marriage.
"I did not really love OM" offers ZERO protection in the future !!!
Think about that.


A BIG MISTAKE is to start the clock on your BH's wounds, and tell him he is not healing fast enough.

Mrs Cen, do you have Kindle?

You need to get a copy of Surviving An Affair. Your "recovery Bible".

Kindle SAA

Or, you can purchase it as a regular book.

How far away does he live?

It is important that your husband has all the facts about the affair. So if there is anything important that he doesn't know, I would get it out now. What he doesn't know, he will wonder about and that will keep him thinking about hte affair. You don't want that. There should be no secrets between you and OM that your H is not privy to.

Does your husband post here?

Mrs_cen,

I wasn't sure if I should volunteer what's not brought up?

I think you answered your own question if you feel guilty about what your haven't told him then get all of it out all at once.

You don't want to have your BH ask you questions that pop into his head 5 years from now and be devastated, there can be no more secrets between you and OM your marriage is more important.

God Bless
Gamma

[video:youtube][/video]

Infidelity: What every couple should know.


What every MB forum poster should watch.

Your threads have been merged. Please stick to one thread. Thank you.

Opposite-sex friendships are never a good idea. I don't care what you never thought through, or what you saw on some TV sitcom or some light-beer commercial, or what your girlfriends think. When a married person is in an opposite-sex friendship, it is never a good idea. That crap only works out in the world of fiction. In real life, it leads people to where you've been.

I know. I've been there myself.

Well, assuming your "never" started only on the day you got caught...

Like I said, I've been where you are, mrs_cen. That means you can't easily bull*** me. That's actually good news for you.

See, this early into recovery, your husband probably isn't even sure himself what it will take, isn't sure what will be enough. He may not be sure what he needs to know from you. That's to be expected. Why would you assume that on the basis of the time between the discovery of your affair & the present day, you'll be punished "forever"? That's a heck of an extrapolation on your part. That'd be sort of like your husband assuming you'll be an adulterer forever, based on an extrapolation of your conduct during your affair. Would it be unfair for him to make such an assumption, but not unfair for you to do so?

My wife (who has worked for most of the last 3 decades in neonatal intensive care units) has drawn a parallel between the pain of being cheated upon & the pain she's witnessed in parents who've just lost a child. Maybe that's overdrawn, I dunno, but my wife isn't given to maudlin statements. Anyway, you've got kids; so let that thought sink in for a bit. Give yourself some pause before you go making any glib assumptions about his level of pain -- it may be worse than you think. Still, figuratively-speaking, and literally, your husband, when faced with a choice between this site & a lawyer's office, came here -- by his own free will. That's huge. If you want to save your marriage, it's huge. Take heart.

I'm here to tell you that a marriage can not only be saved but made better than before. That's my message of hope for you both. But it requires that you commit gratuitous acts of trust on a daily basis. It requires that you both aim not to get back to the marriage you had before, but to something better.

If you haven't gotten the book "Surviving An Affair," please know that it's the book that well may have saved my marriage after my own affair. If your husband thought enough of you to stay his own hand on the divorce, then chances are, he'd be interested in working through the book with you.

No, it won't all be one-sided -- all work for you & no expectations, and him holding this over your head forever. It can't be one-way if your marriage is to flourish; and hopefully your husband is smart enough to realize that. 3 years w/o sex sounds pretty damned messed-up -- y'all need to figure that out, the two of you, together, and that's nothing that I've got any experience in dealing with, so I can't help you there. But for today, I'll counsel patience on your part. Recoveries take two years even in best-case scenarios, and with the sexual issue you've described, I'm not sure your situation is best-case.

You can fix this, but you both have to be all-in, and ready to work at it together, daily.

Right now, how much time are you getting each week for undivided attention to one another?

I'm already wondering what was said here and deleted?

The biggest thing on my mind right now is the fact that he dumped her not the other way around. This tells me she would still be with him and not me otherwise. I was just around and still willing to try and make this work, so she figured she may as well come back to me. Am I wrong for thinking this? She and him were still in communication as little as two weeks ago, i've seen the messages. The first message I encountered was her basically begging him to tell her why he dumped her? Now i'm not supposedly doing something right because I don't trust her? I am going to give this my best, i've been around from the beginning but there will be no second chances.

You are mrscen's BH?

If you are referring to the fact that the threads were merged, it doesn't mean that anything was deleted. Just that her two threads were merged into one.

While you can read your W's thread, it is not a good idea for you to post on it. It would be great for you to start your own thread. Welcome to MB!

Are you mrs_cen's BH? Welcome to MB.

No, you are not wrong for thinking this. You are probably correct in your analysis. However, you should read the case study of Sue and Jon in Dr Harley's book Surviving an Affair.

Sue left Jon for another man, and only went back home because he dumped her and she had nowhere to go. Jon was very resentful of this fact and hopeless about the prospects for their marriage. Yet, because they used Dr Harley's programme to estore their marriage, Sue fell in love with Jon again and their marriage is successful today, years later.

Have you read Surviving an Affair, or any of the infidelity articles available free on this forum?

Are you her husband?

The fact of who dumped whom makes zero difference in recovery. And let me explain why. An affair is an addiction. Rarely does an alcoholic give up alcohol because he woke up one day and realized the error of his ways. That is because he is a drunk and too inebriated to make a sound decision. A cheater experiences the same kind of high from her affair; it is called the "fog."

It doesn't matter HOW the addict was separated from the booze [affair] only that she WAS separated. Cutting off the booze [or affair] means the addict can sober up and engage in recovery. So as long as your wife has cut off all contact with the OM [no matter how it happened] she can fall in with you again.

And it is really BETTER that he dumped her for another reason. As long as he dumped her, she can't go back. If it had been the other way around she could make a decision to take him back.

So it is really more risky to your chances of recovery if your wife did the dumping.

I am going to start a new thread for you so that you can get some help.

Of course you shouldn't trust her. That is right, not wrong.

Although, having said this, I went back and read your wife's description and it seems that he did not dump her. She dumped him because she realised that she loved and wanted you and her family. Why did you describe this so differently?

Since, this is my thread I best comment on it, and not my BH's.

The OM DID dump ME, he did so, because I wasn't willing to "agree" to his terms of the "relationship", I realized after thinking about what the OM was asking of me, that i did still love my H, and I wanted to be with him (my H ) I wanted my family back - therefore deciding that what the OM was wanting out of the "relationship" I was not willing to do - so he ended it. This has been hard on my BH, because as he stated he feels, that had I not been dumped, I would still be with the OM, I'm saying that the reason I was dumped in the first place was BECAUSE, I didn't want the relationship with the OM, I wanted my H, and had I wanted to continue the relationship with the OM, I would have "agreed" to the "terms" the OM was asking, and I never would have been dumped, the relationship never would have ended.

Could I please have a moderator remove this thread?
It has caused my H to become extremely angry at my comments. I should not have posted. Thank you.

Please don�t argue with your H. If you truly want to be with your H then prove it. Read everything Dr. Harley has written on how to survive an affair and put in extraordinary precautions so that you never stray again.

If I were you I wouldn't ask to have your thread deleted. I would leave them here so as you learn you can see the flawed thinking you currently have � and yes right now some, if not all, of your thinking on how you�re going to save this marriage is flawed.

If your H is reading this I�d encourage him not to and instead start his own thread.

Your H has suffered a great hurt committed by you and as such he deserves just compensation. What do you plan to do to recover your M? I hope it�s more than you trying to justify who dumped who and why you say you�re back in this M. From our standpoint we don�t care why you�re no longer in an A. We want to know what you�re going to do so it never happens again, what you�re going to do to help your H trust you again and what you are going to do to help restore love in your M.

Please ask him to come back and post to his own thread. We really do want to help him.

I have had the night to "think", my H and I talked about my post a bit and I have decided to leave the thread and continue to do as is suggested in saving my marriage. We both appreciate all the replies.

That is very good news.

Please ask your H to come back and create his own thread. There are some very specific things he'll need to know and do as part of your recovery.

If you two work together you can recover. You can have a great marriage. A marriage better than what it ever was.

The truth of your adultery hurts.
That's a fact.

And your fogginess hurts him, too. The path MB lays out is the fastest way to get you through the fog, both of you in love with each other, and with a new, safe M that doesn't leave room for an A.

My BS and I are both here on MB, I wanted to clarify a few things - since I can't comment on his thread. My A began Feb 2013 and lasted just under nine weeks, my BS (RNR2013) was aware of the A, almost from the start. My BS had always expressed an interest to reconcille (or at least try) so when the A ended (yes, the OM dumped ME) my BS and I decided to try. The day it ended April 10/13 was the day all contact stopped - I closed my FB account, gave H access to email and text message, I received a text from OM about three weeks ago (H says its 2)OM had two phones, the primary one I deleted when the A ended, the 2nd I had under a false name and honestly forgot it was even there - since OM never used it (BS obviously does not believe that) anyway, I did not answer, the next day I changed my cell number, he still has access to it. Its been hard to read the few comments he's made, because we have discrepancies in how things have been done etc, but as I've read I need to put my feelings aside and focus solely on helping him heal. We bought the book that was suggested and have begun reading it - I'm unsure how it will go.

Sorry, hon, I call BS on this as well. You "honestly forgot" in a manner within the last 9 weeks that you created a fictitious name for your AP?? Really?

Please start being radically honest with your battered betrayed spouse. He deserves the truth and not more lies.

Good on you for changing your number though

Rocket queen - yes, I did "honestly" forget, it was a number that was not used, I had it in there at the beginning of the affair. Because I cut contact and deleted the number I was familiar with, the other number was not a thought UNTIl Om tried to make contact. Your "assumption" was incorrect.

Your BH is EXTREMELY devastated and needs your help.

What EPs have you given to him for yourself?
What just compensation have you given your BH?

Please read.
Can't We Just Forgive and Forget

It actually doesn't matter whether she was incorrect or not. Her point being that this is how it looks to your BS.

Any further contact is incredibly offensive to the BS. Your BS isn't going to care that you forgot - it is going to trigger him and make him wonder how much you are actually doing to protect him and the M.

The best course of action would have been to CHANGE the number so that the OM cannot ever get through again. Most WS try to short-cut this one and it backfires often.

Hopefully you have thought carefully and blocked off any other loopholes there may be (email, etc)

BTW, if there are any mementos from the affair (pictures, notes, emails, texts, ANYTHING) it should all be revealed to your BH and then disposed of immediately.

When you explain it that way SusieQ, I understand. I did change the number the next day, and have had no further contact. I had no "mementos" but I do see the relivance of disclosing such information.

Mrs_cen,

but I do see the relivance of disclosing such information.

Disclose whatever information you have, dishonesty got you to this horrible place and only honesty will undo the damage.

God Bless
Gamma

" My H agreed to try a reconcilliation under certain conditions - I was to have NO contact either direct or indirect with OM, I got rid of my facebook account, changed my cell number, gave H access to my email/bank accounts and phone, I signed the legal seperation he drafted to "feel safe", I've given him total disclosure. I've accepted what I did, I haven't"

Your husband said he just caught you Facebook messaging this POS and taking his calls on your cellphone?? How does that line up with what you told us here?

Those things were done AFTER the one msg on FB and the one text on my cell - I've never taken a call from the OM on my cell

You've received texts.
Your husband isn't sure about your email.
You can still access Facebook.

There is no reason to believe you when you say the affair is over ... what reason have you given him to believe you?

OM obviously knows the number, so you are going to change the number, right?

I changed the number the day after he sent the text.
Clearly it doesn't matter, if you follow his thread, as he mentioned he's in the oil field - your wife has already commented on my "faithfullness" and lack there of. He's already now got it in his head, that's what I will do.

We now know that your husband's job was keeping him away for weeks at a time. It's no wonder there was no intimacy. Nights apart are murder on marriage and intimacy.

In order to recover, you guys are going to need to make a big life change and commit to no nights apart ever again. It's already been demonstrated to be devastating to your marriage and contributory toward the circumstances that led to your affair.

When my wife and I used to spend nights apart, I got involved in looking at porn, which was devastating to her.

We don't spend nights apart any more, so the circumstances that led to me looking at porn never happened, so now she doesn't have to live in fear of me doing it again.

Of course, the nights apart didn't MAKE me look at porn. There were plenty of nights when I was alone and did not do that, so obviously I had a choice and was in control of my own decisions. But we had together made a decision that was bad for our marriage in many ways, and that was one of them. I'm very thankful we don't spend nights apart any more.

Are you willing to commit to never spending the night apart again?

What about your email?
Is Facebook now BLOCKED?

Your wife is now telling him - "I'm just doing what I can to get by, waiting until he leaves", she doesn't know me, those comments are NOT helpfull.

Stop whining and start doing what needs to be done to prove me wrong.

Thank you for your "help" Prisca.

You're more than welcome.
You can start by answering the questions I asked.

Are you willing to never spend the night apart again?
What about your email? Your husband seems to think you haven't shared it completely.
What about Facebook. Is it now BLOCKED?

Are you going to prove me wrong on this?

You realize my wife had a short ~9 week affair, and has since completely recovered our marriage with me, right? You realize she knows how to actually do the work to recover from an affair, right?

What EPs have you given to him for yourself?
What just compensation have you given your BH?

Please read.
Can't We Just Forgive and Forget

mrs_cen, we are on the side of your marriage and want the two of you to recover. Are you willing to do whatever it takes to make sure an affair never happens again, and to make sure your marriage recovers? Are you willing to never spend the night apart again, if that is what it takes?

mrs_cen,

From one wayward to another, every time your H finds out another secret that you are intentionally or not intentionally keeping, it puts him back to day one of the affair. You need to stop worrying about the advice given to your H and start taking the advice given to you from BH's and Waywards that took the high road and truly cleaned up their mess.


Think about the tornado that just hit Oklahoma and that is the mess you made of your marriage. Sitting around and waiting for someone else to clean up or complaining because its not getting cleaned up fast enough is not going to get the job done. In addition it is a BIG job that is going to take ALOT of work on your end.

Please stop taking such offense to what people on here are telling you. Like Markos said, we are on the side of your marriage and know what it takes to make it work.

You have got to be patient and work on cleaning up your side of the street. That includes EP's and Just Compensation(look them up if you don't know what they are)to your H. Both of these need to come into play before you he can even begin to recover.

He is going to be on a roller coaster of emotions for awhile. You are going to have to except that, deal with it, and understand that you are the cause.

I've been researching different programs to block Facebook - most of them seem to be available for computers only - I need to have it on my iPhone.
Right now it's not installed, and there is a password needed to get into my settings to be able to install it (I don't have the password) but my BS has asked that this be done. Does anyone have any experience or advice for this software?

Talk to your cell carrier, and see if there is an option for "parental controls."

Using parental controls through your account on the provider's website may allow you to apply blocks and/or filters.

You could also consider just getting a dumb phone, like an older version flip phone without internet capability. That would keep you off social networks entirely.

Yes, get a dumb phone.

And go back to your other thread and answer my questions:
My Story

Since April of rhis year, i have had NC with the OM, in person or by phone - there was a text message in the beggining of May (which i did not respond to) but BS set our recovery day back to that last communication. Since then i have deleted and blocked FB, have no email address (other than the joint one we share) have transfered my cell to his plan and under his name so he is able to go through and see any texts or phone calls ive received/made through our cell provider (should he choose) our bank accounts are now joint, I have given him a 24hr schedule (as book suggests) to my daily activities, he has all numbers to where i should be at any time to be able to verify. My BS was upset that i had not done a NC letter to OM - since we have both just started to read Dr. H's book "Surviving an Affair" I (we) was not aware until now it should be done, so my question is shoul i still be doing a NC letter to OM? and if so, how do i go about getting it to him? he only has one living relative that i know of - his mom and i dont have any info on her as to number, address etc.
I don't want to make things worse after this much time has now passed, I want to do what's best in reparing my marriage and helping him heal.
Thank you,

Send it certified mail.
Coping with Infidelity: The End


[from SAA, pg 58]

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, XXXXX

Threads merged.

Yes, you certainly should send a NC letter.

Find the contact info.

Questions you've never answered:

Are you willing to never spend the night apart again?
What EPs have you given to him for yourself?
Are you willing to do whatever it takes to make sure an affair never happens again, and to make sure your marriage recovers?

1. Yes, I am 100% willing to never spend the night apart
2. I'm not sure what an EP is (couldn't find it in the abbreviation section) so I can't answer that one yet.
3. I am 100^ willing to do whatever it takes to recover my marriage.

Here. Extraordinary Precautions

Did you see my post about the NC letter?

I did see it Brain, and I had a few minutes to talk to my H at lunch about it, he feels that following Dr.H's steps as well as the forum advice is the way to go, so we will be discussing the letter further tonight.

EP = Extraordinary Precautions

Read:
Four Rules to Guide Marital Recovery After an Affair
Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?
Are "Friends" a Threat to Your Marriage?
How to Survive an Affair

Good.

Make a list of EPs and present them here and then give them to your BH.

Once your BH feels like he's had all his questions answered about Your Affair and sees you living a complete transparent life then you can proceed with building a romantic integrated marriage.

Example EPs:

Your number one EP should be: No contact with OM for life

Number 2: no more nights apart

Number 3: complete transparency -- access to all phones, emails, etc for life.

This is good to see -- we will do whatever we can do to help you guys.

Exactly.

BS has spent the night accusing me of being dishonest - having a "secret" bank account ( there is NO secret bank account) texting and deleting people ( I suggested he contact our cell provider and ask for the records - so as to see I've not been "texting/deleting"people) suggesting I was NOT where I said was after work for half hour (returned a sundress - brought new top AND receipt with time/date stamp to show him)
I have completed the NC letter, BS has not read it, as has been busy with the above. He's said IF the NC letter is not sent by tomorrow it's over. I have NO contact info for OM, other than the cell number, am I suppose to text him and ask for his address? I have no idea what I'm supposed to do - only if I don't do SOMETHING it's over.

You guys can't find him with Google and his name?

Stay transparent with your husband so he can verify everything himself. Be sure not to react negatively to him wanting to verify anything.

HOWEVER,

husband should not be going about this in an angry manner. If he feels angry, he needs to go off by himself and not say or do anything until he calms down.

I say this as a formerly angry man with a formerly wayward wife: Dr. Harley says neither of these conditions is tolerable if you want to save your marriage!

Can you carry a GPS or GPS-enabled phone that he can always check to know where you are? Technology can work wonders when it comes to accountability these days.

You should not go ANYWHERE without your husband's knowledge. He should be able to contact you at any moment.


I have a hard time believing this.
Do you not know his name?
Do you not know where he works?
Do you not know his family or friends names?
Can you not look him up in a phone book?
Can you not google for the information?

It is NOT difficult at all to find someone's address when you have their name and number ... I have a hard time believing that you can't find SOMETHING.

He DID know where I was, I spoke with him twice on the phone while I was at the store.

1. Yes, I know his name
2. No, I do not know where he works.
3. He had one living relative (as I previously posted) his mother, who does not share his last name - I do not know what her last name is.
4. He has a cell only, phone books in Canada use landline only.
5. I googled him after Markos suggested and came up with some men in the UK and a possible Facebook page.

Any other suggestions?]

Adding a location in Google is often helpful. Or a phone number.

How does that prove your location?

Why would he doubt your location, then?

What ideas do you have?

How did you have an affair with this guy without having any contact info?

I would imagine the receipt I brought home, with the time/date stamp would confirm it.

One more time - I KNOW his name, I KNOW his cell number, we did not meet at my home, nor did we meet at his home.

How would he know you were calling from the store??? You were on a cell phone, no?? And any halfwit could run into the store and grab a shirt off the shelf to produce a receipt. All that proves is that you ran through the store real quick.

You have ALOT OF NERVE getting mad at him for not trusting you when it was YOU who destroyed that trust. Don't blame him for not trusting you.

He should not trust out of his sight.

hmmm, where did you meet?

First of all I NEVER said I was angry MelodyLane - I started by explains the events of our evening - expressing HIS anger and asking for suggestions on how to send the NC letter. Secondly, I suppose as you said any "half-wit can run into a store etc" is indeed true, however, getting off work, speaking to him, buying the shirt and making it home within 40 minutes really doesn't leave me a lot of time to be doing "dishonest things"

How are you going to send the NC letter, mrs.cen?

We met in high school, lost touch, became friends through FB.

Well Prisca, I'm not sure - if you look back to my first post tonight, that was the initial question.

You're obviously agitated about it, though.

40 minutes is plenty of time to do many dishonest things.
You haven't even sent a NC letter yet, and you're shopping? And you expect him to not wonder if you're honest? Of course he's going to wonder ... He CAN'T trust you right now. And he SHOULDN'T.

Start thinking. How are you going to do it?

No, I'm actually not agitated at all.
I don't "expect" him to do anything - perhaps I'm not being clear enough here - when I posted tonight, it was to explain his feelings and ask about the NC letter I'm expected to send. I did not suggest, nor did I say I was angry at all, I did not suggest, nor did I say I expect him to suddenly trust me.

You didn't need to say you were angry, we can read it in your post which complains about him. Did you tell your husband you were going there?

Right. So you should have no problem with him checking up on you in the future.

And you shouldn't have a problem skipping the shopping for awhile, to ease your husband's fears.

Yes, I did tell him I was going. I didn't realize talking about his feelings, was complaint about them - I will refrain from doing so in the future.

What?? Didn't you meet at a gym?

If you told him you were going to the store and he agreed to this, then why was he upset?

Stop it.

Of course I don't have a problem with it - I didn't realize that shopping for half an hour would upset him, being as I spoke with him on the phone and brought home the receipt etc. clearly I was wrong, and need to be much more aware of his feelings in the future and either bring him with me or not go at all.

How are you going to send the NC letter, mrs.cen?

I can tell you, if the fate my marriage hung on that one thing, I would find the info needed.

We can't find it for you. You're going to have to do it. You cannot skip this step.

No Melody, we did not meet at a gym

This doesn't add up. So you told him BEFORE you went shopping and he agreed to this and then when you got home he was upset?

Exactly.

Yes, that is correct - I told him, where I was going BEFORE I went, spoke with him twice while I was there, everything was fine when I got home, he got angry a few hours after - which was the start of my first post tonight.

WHY was he upset then?

I don't know, I believe when I'm not around it gives him time to "think" and it reminds him of the A and he gets angry and begins to "think of things/ideas/scenarios" in his head.

I get it now. He doesn't BELIEVE the explanation, which makes perfect sense. The big red flag to ME was the "I called twice while I was there!!" You just set off his red flags with that lame cover. You do realize that is not a cover, right, and makes your story sound contrived?

I NEVER said I "called him twice", I said I SPOKE with him twice, I called ONCE, he called me ONCE.
There IS/WAS no "cover".

You just sound more incredible with every post, do you realize that? Your defensiveness makes you very unbelievable. You used the phone calls as COVER, which should have set off his spidey senses.

I hope he is watching you like a bloodhound. If not, he needs to.

And I'm sure you don't have a problem with that, right?

Not true... You said this just a few posts back:

I am still at a loss as to why you were shopping when there is a NC letter to be written and sent, and knowing you were going to have to invest some time into finding the way to send it ....

Whitepages.com is a good website on finding mailing address. Make sure its sent certified and signed by POSOM. Also, let your BH review of for authenticity.

How did you not know where he wanted you to move to?

I just want to share this with you from the perspective of a BH. You need to put this stuff on the front burner. I guarantee you that your H is thinking about this 24/7. And I mean all the time, day and night. He sees this as the most important issue of his life and it is torturing him relentlessly. The best thing you can do right now is treat this like your most important priority too.

Ms. Cen,

I understand where you and your BH are coming from. Right after my A, my H allowed me to go out to dinner with a girlfriend. While out at dinner I called him twice. Not as a cover but just to check on him and make sure he was okay alone without me by his side (it was the first time I went out without him post A). I told him I would be home by 9:00.

My H has never been a stickler for time so when I walked in at 9:05 and he was freaking out and angry with me, it was the first time that I really got a look at the damage I had done. It was the first time that I came to the realization that I HAD to be accounted for at all times in order for him to feel safe.

Even doing something as simple as exchanging a shirt can and will set him off. Even if he says its okay, I would try not to go anywhere or do anything where there is lost time and his mind can wonder. He is VERY fragile and you need to see this and understand it.

I have not personally used it but I have seen it suggested on this site, Spokeo has been suggested for finding people. I think you can get a month free for only a couple of bucks.

I think this might be a good thing for you and your H to do together then send the letter together. This letter is his security blanket right now. Find a way to get it mailed ASAP!!!

Since my BS has done exposure, I sent my sister a text asking her to find him by name on FB and ask for his address - which she has done.
The NC letter has been written and is in an envelope waiting for my BS to read and approve.

How's the NC letter coming?

Ah, I see we posted at the same time
Is he home to read it?

Hate to point this out but maybe if the NC letter was sent your BH wouldn't be freaking out as much when you are away from him. Your ignoring a bigger issues for something contrite. What steps have you taken to find the address for this POSOM and get the NC letter done? It was suggested this should be an activity you both do together.

Has he responded with his address?

No, he is at work - he checks in frequently and I'm sure will see it at some point this am.

BS wanted the info found by the time he came home from work today. As I posted, I asked my sister to find him by name on FB and get an address.

She (DS) has not called or texted back yet, I have until he comes home to get it.

Spend your time exploring other ways of getting it while your sister waits for a response.

Your BH should not be taking out his justified anger on you. That is the least important bit of information in this whole thing, because that's his battle to fight, not yours.

The most important bit of info in all this is the NC letter. Let me break it down for you. If you could find a way to get in touch with OM in the first place, if you could spend enough time online or on the phone to make a connection, if you could find the ways, means, and time to meet with him and pull your pants down, if you could get so far with your adultery that OM wanted you to live with him and be his Lust Shack Queen, then don't try to say you have no way of sending him an NC letter.

Have a friend, or better yet your pastor, call OM on his cell phone and say you need to send him a letter. Search everything you can think of. Zabasearch.com may have something.

So your initial contact was on FB? Well, unless he's deleted his account, a letter can be sent there. If your BH is unwilling to send it himself, have a friend send it for you, to both OM and BH so BH can see that it was actually sent.

You're spending so much time parsing words about your ill-advised shopping trip, that you're missing the most important thing. Did you call him twice? Did he call you twice? Did you each call each other once? Your defensiveness is at the very least foggy, and at the worst deceptive, but the bottom line is STOP WASTING TIME AND FIGURE OUT HOW TO SEND THE LETTER.

Oh good, it sounds like you've been making some progress while I was posting. Don't just sit around waiting to see if he writes your sis, though. Keep hunting, keep brainstorming. This is a vital first step, and you will get nowhere (nor will your BH) until it's done.

I also noticed that as soon as you began to take concrete action, the tone of your posts changed, and became less foggy and defensive, at least for now. That's also a good thing. Right actions lead to right feelings.

Very good suggestion.
I was just thinking your husband could text him, posing as you, asking for his address so you could send him a letter.

So true! Keep on brainstorming show your BH that you are serious and the healing can begin. Also, he might not be an angry individual to begin with but your affair crumbled that wall. He may need to take some anger management classes. I was like him anytime, I find out some bad news about my WW and her POSOM I would get angry and take it out on whoever was in proximity. Anger managment classes will help and also can be a way to show you that he is serious about protecting your feelings. There's a thread here about anger managment too. He should read it.

I will suggest that to him, he can block the number so the OM does not get the new number, or BS cell number. I did do a reverse address look up where you put in the phone number and you get an address - nothing came back on that, I will try whitepages.ca

How did it go?

mrs_cen,

You need to call the police the next time your husband touches you. He clearly has anger problems and is not safe to recover with until he gets help from his anger.

Please view the material my wife links to her in thread about what to do about an angry husband. As a former angry husband, I implore you.

I wholeheartedly agree.

I suggest you go to the police now and file a criminal report for assault.

Mrs.cen, you should continue to do what you need to do to completely break it off with the OM. Don't go back to him, he's no good for you.

BUT, do not try to reconcile with your husband unless he gets help for his anger and is able to protect you from himself.

mrs_cen, are you all right this morning? I have asked your husband if you were out on the street last night, but I'm not sure when he'll be able to answer.

Dr. Harley takes the position that angry outbursts are not to be tolerated in marriage. We back that up here on the forum! If you guys are going to recover, he is going to need to learn to completely eliminate angry outbursts. You do not have to put up with this kind of behavior.

We want to help you both.

I have encouraged your husband to contact Dr. Harley and see about one or both of you talking to Dr. Harley on his radio program. It's free, and very helpful.

I encourage you to do the same! And if for some reason RNR2013 doesn't do it, I encourage you to go forward and do it without him.

There are a lot of issues and obstacles here that you guys need to work through if you are going to recover. Not just your infidelity, but also his love busters. Dr. Harley takes the position that a marriage (even a recovered marriage after an affair) needs to be a relationship of equals, with decisions made jointly, and no demands, disrespect, or angry outbursts. He classifies these three things (demands, disrespect, and angry outbursts) as abuse and takes the position that they should not be tolerated.

FYI, my wife asked me to leave our home last year because of my continuing angry outbursts. It turns out that was very much a part of the permanent solution! (I am back now, and haven't had an angry outburst in nearly a year.)

Hi Markos/Prisca - I am alright - thank you. I did not sleep on the street. I have read Prisca's link on "Angry Husbands" and am looking into some of the other books suggested. I will look into speaking with Dr. Harley on his program as well.

We (BS) and I have come to the decision that he WILL leave the rigs, a city job DOES pay less BUT we both realize in order to repair our marriage and have a healthy future it needs to be done.

I have completed the NC letter to OM and DID get the address! I will continue to do what I have to do - following Dr. H's steps in the book. I'm now looking at starting the questionnaires that are at the end.

Okay, this is looking good, mrs_cen! Glad to hear you are all right.

Will you call the police if he ever lays a hand on you again? This is important.

That is very good to hear.
Are you mailing the NC letter today?

Which book are you looking at? I think you two would benefit from getting Lovebusters and going through it together, first. There is a workbook that goes along with it called Five Steps to Romantic Love.

After you have done that, go through His Needs, Her Needs.

If you can afford it, I highly recommend the Online Program. You will have a coach to guide you through the lessons, as well as access to Dr. Harley on the private forum. It is possible to work through the program on your own, but if you find yourself having trouble doing so, this is a GREAT way to be made accountable.

The "Lovebusters" was the one I was most interested in - and seems to be the one you guys are suggesting as well.

The NC letter WILL be mailed today, we will post it together.
He recognizes that what happened last night was NOT ok, and it can't and will not ever happen again.

Yes

Good. It's important!

One thing, I did not mention was during last night's "fiasco" between BS and I, he had asked for the NC letter, which was already addressed and ready (just needed him to look it over and be comfortable with the wording) he ripped it up. Today, he posted on being upset, because I had not brought up mailing it, he felt I "didn't really want to send it". Long story short, I re-wrote it a second time, addressed it, put a stamp on it, and am waiting for him to verify so we can post it tonight. I will not let this step be skipped, though I'm feeling very angry tonight (over last night) yet at the same time guilty (if I'd never have had the A, last night wouldn't have happened).

It makes sense to be hurt by his angry outburst. It is going to be very important for him to completely eliminate those, going forward.

It is disrespectful for him to judge you for not bringing it up or to psychoanalyze your motives. You guys are going to need to go through Love Busters (the book) and follow Dr. Harley's plan to eliminate those. Hopefully he is already starting to think about how to be more respectful.

Other than that, just get it done. Give him a copy of the letter and the info he needs; keep the discussion to a minimum and AT ALL COSTS avoid fighting. Don't start a fight over who did or didn't bring up the letter, or who should have done this or that, or whatever. You guys are a team; just do it.

Yes!

mrs_cen, I think you guys could greatly benefit from sitting down together daily to listen to Dr. Harley's radio show:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4200_radio.html

It's going to take a lot of education to make this work, and a lot of motivation. The radio show provides some of both.

Thanks Markos, I've copied the link and will have a listen on my own today at lunch, than tonight when we are both home, talk with H, about having a listen.

Have the two of you mailed the NC letter?

Yes!!! It went out today. I'm glad it's gone!

Great! Now you two can concentrate on rebuilding your marriage!

Good job - I knew you could do it!

Good job.

Letter went out today via certified mail.
Now, to began work on my EP's for BS.

Good job.

Did you see the EP thread I posted to you?

Post them here for feedback.

I did Brain - Ty.
Here are the ones I have so far.
1. I must be totally honest with you about everything
2. I must answer every question you have fully and truthfully
3. I must do everything in my power to prove you are who I want to be with
4. I must prove myself to you
5. I must feel your pain
6. I need to completely understand the devastation I have cause you
7. I must accept total responsibility for my actions
8. I must stop all contact with OM & not try to protect him
9. I must reassure you it's ok to ask any and all questions
10. I must recognize when your struggling or experiencing a trigger and comfort you
11. I must re-enforce to you, that you are NOT responsible
12. I must work on rebuilding the trust I have taken. No secrets, no privacy.

This list concerns me.
It is mainly a list of promises of how you will feel.
Extraordinary Precautions is not repentance. Extraordinary Precautions are boundaries to prevent another affair.
Extraordinary precautions are behavior based, not feeling based.

1. I mustwill be totally honest with you about everything
2. I must answer every question you have fully and truthfullywill sit down with you once to answer every question you have about my affair. I will answer fully and truthfully.
3. I must do everything in my power to prove you are who I want to be withI will enter into a program of recovery with you - Marriage Builders. I will create a romantic relationship with that is far better than what we had before my affair.
4. I must prove myself to you
5. I must feel your pain
6. I need to completely understand the devastation I have cause you
7. I must accept total responsibility for my actions
8. I must stop all contact with OM & not try to protect him. I will have No Contact with him for life
9. I must reassure you it's ok to ask any and all questions
10. I must recognize when your struggling or experiencing a trigger and comfort you
11. I must re-enforce to you, that you are NOT responsible
12. I must work on rebuilding the trust I have taken. No secrets, no privacy. will commit to total transparency.
13. I will commit to never spending the night apart again.
14. I will no longer have male friends
15. I will never join another social networking site.
16. I will provide my spouse a daily schedule of all appointments and contact information.
17. Anytime I have the thought, �I don�t want my spouse to know about��.�, I will call my spouse immediately and tell them my thoughts.

Dr. Harley recommends that a couple do this ONCE. Get all the info out about the affair in one seating. Then never, ever bring up the affair again. He can't talk about it anymore, and you can't either.

Prisca, I see the difference between what I wrote and how you fixed it. I guess I didn't quite "get it", I've copied the "new list" and will go over it with BS to get his thoughts . Thanks.

Talking with BS now, he wonders what happens if he had another question regarding the A, in a month - he doesn't always have questions at one time??

That will greatly depend on what questions he wants to ask. Dr. Harley says to get out the information about how the affair happened, what methods were used for contact during the affair, where did the affairees meet, who was involved, etc. All of this is information that is used to prevent a future affair. Example: if affairees contacted on Facebook, eliminate Facebook.

Sometimes down the road a betrayed spouse gets mired into wanting to bring the affair up again, and this is almost always a bad idea. They typically want to know something like "Were you really in love?" or whatever. The answer is yes, the answer is unpleasant, and the discussion is not helpful for recovery, according to Dr. Harley.

If there's really a piece of information he wants to know down the road, I would strongly advise him to contact Dr. Harley directly and ask his advice and follow it as to whether it is a good idea or not. This is too important to mess up.

Ah yes, one of the problems I have with the program. As a BS, it is hard not to ask questions about something that is on your mind on a daily basis.

I would tell RNR that he needs to ask himself if the answer to the question is important to bring up or if its just to satisfy a curiosity. If its not, then stifle it. If it is important, then he needs to bring it up. However, it should not be done in a disrespectful way.

However, it is very important for you, Mrs. Cen, to tell him everything now so that there are not gaping holes in the puzzle that he will be turning over in his head for years to come. Be honest with everything he asks, ok?

The problem with this is that every question he comes up with will seem important to him.

And if he brings it up, it is very likely to set their recovery back to square one.

The rule is to talk about it all in one seating. And then to never talk about it again.

If he comes up with something he'd like to ask later, he'd be better to write Dr. Harley and ask him about it first. Or perhaps post it here on his own thread. But bringing it up with her just because he feels it's important is a recipe for disaster.

Mrs.Cen. We have a couple on this board where the wife was told to tell her husband every time she remembered something about the affair. And every time a little detail came to her mind, she would tell him. It kept both of them dwelling on the affair for 3 years. They should be very far along into recovery by now, but they are just now beginning to look at it.

You will not be able to recover if the affair keeps being brought up.

You make a very good point Prisca. It really is up to the BS, though, what is important and what is not. If RNR questions if its important, he should feel free to post on his thread and we can help him.

I have given my all - he's now called our local police department to have me "removed" from "our" apartment.
Until he has acknowledged and received help for his anger, I feel I'm not going to be "ok" here - the rollar coaster of his threats is taking is tole.

His anger is his to deal with. He claims you are still lying. Obviously you both can't be right. Either you are lying or he is mistaken. If you are telling the truth, and he is mistaken about something that triggers him it doesn't change the fact that it triggers him. If he sees a jacket that brings all of the emotion back, even if you haven't worn it in a year, is the jacket more important than his feelings?

His anger is a major issue here, but it seems that neither of you are handling your conversations well.

I am not going to assume you are lying, but if you are you should understand that lying about the affair does almost as much damage as the affair. I remember reading on the forum that more couples get divorced over the lies than the affair itself. If you are lying then I recommend that you stop, appologize, and tell him the truth. It hurts to do so, but it doesn't hurt nearly as bad as the affair or continued lies.

If you are telling the truth then you need to convince him. Take a polygraph. lie about nothing. If you tell the truth about everything and he catches you in the tiniest lie about what you had for breakfaast then all trust will be lost again.

You are right, you are not safe with an angry husband. And he shouldn't be making threats. And you should very likely not remain in the home with him if he cannot end his anger. End. Not control. End.



You both have the right to feel safe in the marriage.

You're correct.

What happened? Did the police come?

We all agree that RNR needs to control his anger. Are you controlling yours? Are you having AO or DJ's towards him? Are you being patient with him? In perspective, you betrayed him. Are you being sensitive to his needs to help him heal? It took me weeks to get all of thin information I needed about the affair. His mind is realing with the shock of this and he needs time to wrap his brain around what happened. He is trying to put a puzzle together without a picture and half of the pieces missing. He may not even know what he wants to know yet. Be patient.

No this does not excuse his anger, or walking away. That used to infuriate my wife. But using radical honesty you can tell him if it makes you angry and suggest another way he can end a conversation that is making him feel unsafe without upsetting you.

mrs_cen, I am just now catching up - Dr. Harley's position is that angry outbursts are not to be tolerated in marriage, and if he is not willing to commit to no angry outbursts for any reason (even mistakes on your part), you probably do need to separate from him.

Although an affair is definitely the most traumatic thing one human being can do to another, Dr. Harley won't justify angry outbursts or spouses punishing spouses at all.

I see a very dangerous suggestion here that you be patient with anger on your husband's part. I would definitely recommend a patient separation. But it is incorrect to think that you should try to meet your husband's needs or help him heal in the face of your husband's angry outbursts.

You cannot do this. Don't even try.

Has he demonstrated a willingness to take anger management classes? You should bring this up to him. Personally I believe the outbursts are mutual and you should attend together. Wouldn't hurt, also do you own Lovebusters? Are you reading it together?

His feelings as to the events of the last few days are all posted in his thread - including his thoughts on anger - (I won't speak on his behalf)
I (we) have not got "Love Buster) yet, I've just myself finished reading SAA, I'm unsure if my BS has finished or not.
It was another book suggested by some other members and was already on my list to get, once finished SAA (which is now)

You can tell him that you are willing to give him Just Compensation by building a romantic relationship with him that was better than the marriage you had before the affair.

But you cannot do that if he is going to abuse you. And you will not tolerate his AOs.

Markos I hope that you are not getting that from my post. Reading both threads it seems that his anger is coming from her impatience. From her setting the timeline or lying. that could be true or false. But if his anger is coming from impatience, then by her being patient with his pain then his anger will be less.

Yes he does need anger management and conflict resolution classes. But this is a two way street and mrs Cen also needs to clean up her side of the fence.

Yes, I agree - though as I said he's posted on his thoughts regarding his anger and the reasons behind them. I will say that I've noticed him trying to control and refrain from AO, I think we both need to learn the correct techniques to handle them when we see them coming. I must continue to be diligent I'm my EP's for him, as I know that a lot o his anger comes from insecurities he's still (obviously) feeling.

I want to make sure that she doesn't get any such impression.


There are reasons for angry outbursts, but no excuses. RNR clearly has an anger problem, and until he is ready to eliminate it, he is not ready for recovery, and mrs_cen needs to be protected from him.

He should eliminate angry outbursts whether she is patient or not. He's already assaulted her and thrown her out of the house once.


No it isn't, actually. He needs to deal with his own anger and not have any excuse to think of her as the cause of it.

The correct technique for you to handle them is to leave the room and refuse to engage with him when he is angry. If he follows you, tell him "I'm not going to talk about this right now." If he persists, take the kids and leave he house.

Do not engage. He can talk to you when he is ready to do so calmly.

I'm not 100% sure about the direction it's coming from. I believe he still has questions regarding the timeline and hopefully we will be able to address them soon. I agree I need to do my part and "clean up my side". All I know is that I love him and I will do whatever needs to be done for however long it needs to be done to have the marriage we both want.

I haven't caught up on his thread yet, but no matter what reasons there are, they are not excuses.


While you do need to be diligent in EPs, neither one of you must ever think that his angry outbursts is a result of feelings you cause.

Here's Dr. Harley's take:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5062_qa.html

If he wants his needs to be met, he is going to need to eliminate his AOs. Read this from Dr. Harley:

Keep this in mind from Dr. Harley:

You can tell him that you are willing to give him Just Compensation by building a romantic relationship with him that was better than the marriage you had before the affair. But you cannot do that if he is going to abuse you.

All true.

Equally true is the fact that you cannot "tell him" anything if he does not trust your words. Discounting all the "he said/she said" about who in recent days said what, to whom, when, and in what context, what fairly LEAPS off his pages is that he believes he does not have the full story about the past, doubts your commitment in the present, and cannot project trust into your future.

Whether he blows up like the early NG, walks away like the later NG, or endures like the NG-Gandhi that will never be, your lack of trustworthiness in his eyes is PROBLEM NUMBER 1.

Nothing will move without that being repaired.

NG, I couldn't agree more. He has angry outbursts, this is true. According to him he walked away because she was having an AO towards him. Thus is all he said she said.

I get the feeling that alot of the people here have just stopped paying attention to RNR once he threw her out of the house (which there is no excuse for) We need to be helping BOTH Mrs Cen and RNR. And not forget that RNR was victim and is still hurting. Just as he MUST work on his anger, Mrs Cen also needs to work on her anger/impatience and if she finds she does something that makes him angry then stop since it is a love buster.

a little devil's advocate here but i do believe it's a two way street. from the other thread, i get the impression that Mrs. Cen gets pretty irritable when her BH makes requests (like dump the jacket).

i always find it interesting when a wayward gets the board's sympathy and support over the betrayed. you can disagree.

i too had an affair, mrs. cen. it took awhile for me to really see and understand the devastation my affair caused and i too was impatient while my BH got his head around it.

i think you could use some serious self reflection in terms of how he must feel about all of this. he is totally destroyed by your actions. i get the feeling you just don't get it and if you could, you might have more compassion.

I'm not sure if you've read my entire thread or not - at any rate "sympathy" from the board is far from what I've got - in fact Prisca has been one of the hardest on me. Perhaps your not aware o the last few days - perhaps you are. One thing I will say is everything that my BS has said upset him with unpleasant memories has been thrown out without question and without anger.
Self-reflection is a big part of healing, and I am doing it.

Exactly.

I support the MARRIAGE, zibbles. If you go back and read her thread, you will note that I was one of the HARDEST ones on her case.

What does Dr. Harley tell a wife to do in response to her husband's AOs? It's not "self reflection" or "develop compassion."

The way that is repaired is through Just Compensation.

***EDIT***

remember that while the affair was fun and intoxicating for you, your BH gets NONE of the pleasure and all of the fallout from the affair.

some of the posters on your threads are AO experts so listen up. it's really tough to get a feeling for what's really happening but i imagine you're looking more disinterested in healing this than you realize.

Hey, helpfordad Been awhile since you've been around. How would you feel about posting on your thread and telling us how eliminating your AOs is coming along, and if you've signed up for the online program yet?

*************************************EDIT************************************

First off, could you not shout in response to my wife? As you know, I traumatized her for years through shouting and angry outbursts. So even an internet shout is pretty inappropriate.

Second of all, we know what Dr. Harley would say in this situation, because he said it to Prisca:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2495337#Post2495337



Notice how the good doctor redirected immediately to the real problem. There was NOTHING Prisca could do if my angry outbursts were tolerated. And the same is true, here.

There is no need to get all psychobabbly about his feelings of whether he values just compensation or doubts her sincerity or whatever. He needs to sit down in a room by himself and ask if he really wants his marriage or not. If he does, then he needs to get with the program. Given that he assaulted her last week, he is going to need to learn to keep his temper or she should not live with him. She certainly shouldn't try to prove her sincerity in the face of angry outbursts! That'd be about the same as trying to meet the emotional needs of a falling down drunk. He'd be a black hole she could never please.

If he decides he doesn't want his marriage, we'd certainly support him in that. That is his right. There may have been more damage done here than can be overcome. But that is his decision to make.

NG That is spot on.

As to his AO.

***EDIT***

Moderator's note: Please use Marriage Builders principles to advise this poster.

It will not and should not be repaired because it was TOO much trust that led to the problem in the first place. The solution to that is to NOT TRUST by eliminating the conditions that allowed her to have an affair.

However, even that is a non starter if he won't get his angry outbursts under control. This is all hopeless unless he gets himself under control. Like DR HARLEY has stated, the FIRST thing that has to be resolved are angry outbursts when present. He is not safe otherwise.

Mrscen, from what your husband described in his thread this morning, YOU were the one who had an angry outburst when you marched in and demanded to hear his questions right now. Are you kidding me? While he is not entitled to have AOs, neither are you. You are not in any position to demand anything.

Everything we have written to him about AOs applies to you too. If you have not given him a timeline of the full facts, I would get this written out. Let him read it alone and WRITE out any remaining questions. Don't discuss it in person.

Get this done on HIS timetable, not yours. (As LNG as it is done soon)

Of course he doesn't trust her, NG. Who disputes that? And he shouldn't.
Recovery doesn't require trust on his part.
It requires Just Compensation on her part, which she is well on her way to providing -- NC letter sent, Facebook shutdown, transparency established, EPs written, a willingness to enter into a program of recovery to create a romantic relationship.

YES.

No tolerance for angry outbursts, if you want to be happy in life, and in marriage.

No tolerance: don't tolerate them from yourself, or from your spouse.

Yes, I am trying to catch up but I am just seeing major lovebustering all over the place on both sides. Wow.

mrs_cen, there is a very important Marriage Builders rule that needs to be followed:

If your spouse breaks the rules, don't break the rules in response.

For example, if your spouse has an angry outburst, don't have an angry outburst in response.

Or, if your spouse needs to do something, don't resort to love busters about it. For example, we stayed on you hard here about getting that no contact letter written and sent. But hopefully your husband wasn't there having angry outbursts at you about it, and if so, I hope you know now that you should not put up with it.

In the same way, he should not put with angry outbursts from you, either.

You guys have got to stop fighting, or it is going to be the end of your marriage.

Suggestion: if you are having trouble with your husband about something, post here first and get some pointers how to talk about it to make sure that whatever you do is not something that is done in a disrespect, demanding, or angry way!

mrs_cen, I read that you threatened to call the cops on RNR.

Don't threaten. Just call.

BUT

call if he ever touches you again.

If he's not touching you, just leave. Go to the mall. Go shopping (or window shopping). Go take a drive.

Just get out for awhile and let him learn that he has to be respectful if he wants to talk to you.

ALSO, it gives you a chance to keep yourself calm.

I want to speak to this. First off, by taking a no tolerance position on angry outbursts, we ARE helping both mrs_cen and RNR. They both had an angry outburst. This has got to stop, or there will not be a marriage to save.

So now not only do we have a marriage with a betrayed spouse victim, we have a marriage where both husband and wife are victims of each other's abuse. There's only one clear standard here: abuse is not to be tolerated in marriage, for any reason. Nobody gets the right to become demanding, disrespectful, or angry.

Why did you threaten to call the cops, mrs.cen?

************************EDIT************************

I had told BS, that he needed to leave the house - we had been arguing again. BS, said no, he was not going to leave the house, I threatened to call them and have him charged - he decided to call them himself - which he did, then tried to "cancel" the call (which you can not do) so they came. They asked if I DID want him arrested and charged, I declined.

There seems to be so many thoughts, opinions, speculations even, that I have NO idea what we (RNR and I) need to do next.

Thus far, I've concluded that he needs to get his AO's under control, that I need to get mine (AO) under control, that fighting will get us no where, that actions (on both sides) speak louder than words. I (we) have read the first suggest book SAA, that we need to get the next suggested book "Love Busters" but where do we start? What's next?

Dr. Harley says it doesn't, NeverGuessed.

You both need to START the program with Lovebusters and its workbook, 5 steps to romantic love. That is the next step. These lovebusters MUST be eliminated. Order the books today.

Why are you telling him to leave the house? Why don't you guys just take a step back and learn to be there together without fighting?


Was he violent toward you? I would call the cops if he touches you, or seems out of control and you are scared what he might do and you can't get out.

Why did you want him to leave the house?

We had been arguing, he'd already left - once before and he was starting to get upset again.

Why did the cops ask you if you wanted him charged and arrested if he's the one that called them?

Because they saw the bruises on me.

Also, is the book in the online bookstore "love Busters" the one we are to get or is it something in the "courses and seminars"?

What bruises?

Yes, the book in the bookstore is the one. Get 2 copies, one for you and one for him.

From Wed - when he threw me out (in Canada, you have two weeks to decide, unless an officer sees your situation as life threatening and in that case the offender is charged immediately and consent is not needed)

Dr. Harley says that you should file a criminal complaint when your spouse is physically abusive. You should've filed one for wednesday, especially if he left bruises. Did you?

Was he violent when you threatened to call the cops?

Are you going to do this?

Yes, I will work on it tonight

mrs_cen, I am really worried that with all of the fighting, you guys are not going to be able to pull this off without professional help. Unless the demands, disrespect, and angry outbursts can completely be eliminated, there is not much hope. It sounds like every time somebody makes a demand, there is an escalating response. You already have bruises on you. I am worried you are going to wind up in the hospital.

Did you guys say you were going to email Dr. Harley? I would strongly suggest it.

Did you tell the police where the bruises came from? Is it now on record what happened?

Also, ask to be callers. Both of you

Are you being fully transparent with your husband?

Yep. My question too.

What EP's have you both put in place to start R? Do you plan to use MB's?

If I were your H, no way would I even start to consider R with you unless there was a mutual decision that MB rules are in place so this would never happen again.


There seems to be a lot of focus on your H's AO's..rightfully so.

He seems to be working on his LB's and trying to fulfill your EN's.

However, what are you doing to change YOU? If I were he, I would be very uncomforable.

Not wanting him to see your cell phone? Really? okay. This is not a good start.

mrs_cen, apparently there are some times you are acting upset with your husband when he looks at your cellphone or whatever. Don't do that! Invite him to look at such things any time. This is what it means to be fully transparent.

Also while you both are working on your Love Busters.

Did you you answer ALL his questions about the affair?

Did you give him your list of EPs that you were working on?

Also:
Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

Yes, I am being TOTALY transparent with him, my phone was switched under his plan, so that at any time he has access to any and all incoming/outgoing texts and phone calls. I have ALWAYS let him see the phone, it's not hidden.
He has not given me a list of questions yet, so I e not answered, only the questions he's verbally asked - those I HAVE answered.
My EP's are posted in this thread, a few pages back and I'm continuing to follow and complete them. I need to work on my own AO, he's pointed out a few to me last night.

I emailed Dr. Harley last night.

Why do you seem upset when he asks to see it?

I don't know, I don't see it as anger - agitated maybe - he, pointed this out to me last night - I've said I will not do it anymore, he sees it as an obvious LB.
I saw you posted about spyware for my phone on RNR's link - I think that would be a good idea, can you just go to a BestBUy?

He needs to take care of that himself. You need to just let him.

Whenever he asks to see your phone, let him. No emotion. Just hand it over and let him see it. He cannot handle ANYTHING that looks like you are hiding something. Go out of your way to be transparent.

Who are you texting?

I'm not - usually it's just games - Tetris/Candy crush.
When I do text it's to him or my sister - and I leave the text history, so he knows or can see that nothing's been deleted.

Is your phone your source for the internet? Or do you have a PC?

We have a MAC book, but I do have Internet on the phone.

When you are playing a game and he wants to see your phone, let him see the screen.

Prisca didn't ask about anger. She asked why you seem upset.

I don't get it -- if you are being "totally transparent" and there is no issue here, why would you be agitated? Do you not realize that he is going to be distrustful of almost everything that you do for a while?

My sister and her H have never had affairs and they can't text anyone without the other coming and looking and they have no problem with that.

Give him your phone as soon as he walks in the door from work. Tell him you are committed to transparency, and ask him to put any kind of spyware on your phone and computer that he needs to. Do so without emotion -- no agitation or arguing or acting like this is something you are being forced to do. He can give you your phone back when he is done. DO NOT DEMAND IT. OFFER IT.If he responds with a disrespectful judgement or angry outbursts, keep your mouth shut, leave the phone, and leave the room.

Do not push him to give it back to you. Wait patiently.

Have you actually dared to say "who are you, the phone police?" to your H, who has just discovered your affair? Have you actually dared to say that in the last few days, despite having read about the devastation of affairs on here?

Why on earth would you speak in that manner to the man you betrayed, if that's true?

Ok, I will do it starting today.

Yes, Sugarcane I did say that - and my BS pointed it out and called me on it. I realized what I did, and committed to never doing it again - and also following Prisca's suggestions as well.

Good.

Sarcasm is a disrespectful judgment, so you'll have to eliminate it in the way you talk to your husband.

Prisca and I were lovers of fine sarcasm, so this was particularly difficult for us. But it was well worth it! Nowadays we know how to flirt all the time without being sarcastic or disrespectful to each other, and that is MUCH more fun!

Have you ordered Lovebusters and the workbook yet?

I would take it a step further. I have noticed on this thread several times that you are very defensive-- and I foresee a lot of problems if you don't drop the attitude when you are questioned about things -- because you BH is going to question EVERYTHING you do for a while.

This is the point I was hoping to get you to see. For the life of me, having been through this myself, I have never been able to undertand how a WS can watch their spouse crumble into a near breakdown on discovering their affair, and yet have the brass neck - to lack compassion and concern to such a degree - that they can mock and belittle them over their panic and fear of the affair continuing or reigniting.

Your only response here is that your BS called you on it and you stopped. There is no sense of humility or regret from you for having done that, whatsoever.

I am saddened about that.

Exactly!

In the early part of my posting on the board, I was indeed very defensive - I felt for lack of a better word "attacked" - my BS, implored me to join this site, so that we could get help to save our marriage. I stayed with it. I believe that my defensiveness to the posts on not only my thread but my husbands as well as lessened significantly, I read, I respond, I answer the questions. It's certainly not my intent to come across any other way. As far as having "no sense of humility and or regret", I can only say that yes, of COURSE I have regret, deciding to not post that "I feel regret" etc, was what I thought I was supposed to do? One of my EP's was "to put my feelings aside and help you heal with yours", I believe someone posted already that my feelings are just emotion not actions.
And since it was me that caused the potential break-up of my marriage, I thought I was doing the correct thing.
Last night when he called me on it, I expressed to him my regret, I made a conscious decision and promise to him to not do it anymore - I chose to leave my feelings out of the original post. I don't know now what I'm suppose to say when answering questions here - if I respond with my feelings of regret etc it comes across as being "poor WW" but I I don't ten it comes across as "having no humility or regret"

Have you gone over these with him yet?

Yes Brain, I did - the day I posted them and Prisca helped me to fix them. He agreed with them, and I believe only modified one of them slightly.

From what I see, I do believe your defensiveness has gotten better. Probably still present somewhat.

I will point out that, for the most part, in addition to reading, responding, answering questions, you have also been following the suggestions made to you! Certainly hoping this continues.


Yes, I think you are doing the right thing. I think the point the other posters were making was for you to be aware of the emotional impact that being sarcastic and disrespectful to your husband has on him when it comes down to something related to extraordinary precautions, like your telephone, or anywhere else where you need to be transparent. Plenty of people are probably appalled by the "phone police" comment.

Have you asked him to please sit down and ask you all his questions he has?

Then once you've answered ALL his questions completely and honestly then you both must never talk about the affair again and follow the steps for recovery.

Good job.

Which one was modified?

Was he enthusiastic about them?

It needs to go away completely.

Would you be willing to do a lie detector test?

Not yet, we normally put it on credit but its maxed, we did figure out though that we can get a Kobo gift card and put it on that so we will do that tonight after work.

Please exlain how you are doing so. Specifically.



Also, are you studying the POJA, RH (I mean REALLY focusing on these) and UA meeting EN's?

I did ask, he said he's not ready yet, that he doesn't have a list yet. I told him I'm ready at any time.

It's $9.99 on Amazon.

I know it probably can't wait until this, but if you're a caller on the show they will send you a book for free.

Yes

My total transparency is/are:
-No privacy
-Phone plan switched to allow for him to heck with our provider all in/out going calls/texts
-No social media - FB has been blocked
- spyware - he will look into it and has said it will make him feel a bit better
- 24 hour schedule with all contact numbers at all times
- I call when I get to work or am on the way, I call when I leave so he knows when to expect me
- I go no where without him with me now ie. groceries, gym

I posted my EP's - sorry - the ones I listed are how I'm trying to handle the transparency - no good? Or ok?

I can't tell from this response if you are really getting it or not.

Regardless of whatever the issue or story is, if you are AT ALL defensive when being questioned or when your BS is trying to examine any aspect of your life (email, phone, whatever) this is going to cause big problems in your R.

So I would not do that anymore (become agitated, defensive, etc), period.

I see that Susie, - thank you, I will not be defensive anymore - I just want help to fix my marriage.

There is another future issue in your marriage that should probably be addressed soon. It is one that casues the most stress in marraige.

Finances.

RNR has taken a lesser paying job and you said your credit is maxed. I suggest doing a financial program to help you curb spending, budget, and be happy with less. The Total Money Makeover by Dave Ramsey is good. I fear if you don't then the NEW stress of finances, combined with the stress about the affair may be too much.

(That's actually in disagreement with what Dr. Harley says.)

I will put that program on the list of "to gets" as we'll. thank you.

Worry about finances after you've started recovery and have your marriage on track.

Not a bad list. Really, it falls back into your H's hands as to if these things make him feel safe or not.

The idea of MB's is for you and your H to build and integrated lifestyle where there is no chance of either of you having a Secret Second Life.

A life in which there are No secrets at all in your M.

Some don't realize that "omission' is also lying. You know..leaving OUT important details of your life.

My FWW lied to my face many, many times...however most of her lying was by Omission where she just hid facts. Actually these were more damaging.

Also there is a distinction between Privacy and Secrecy. Privacy is going to the restroom with the door closed.

What you have done to your H is the worst possible thing you could ever do to someone you love. Dr Harley has counseled people who have experienced both A and losing a child and have said an A is more painful. Your husband should not trust you right now. It is up to YOU to prove to him you will always take his feelings into account with every decision you make and NEVER hurt him again.

Please, I implore you�if you intend to follow through on using MB�s and not hurting him again GO FOR IT..Honestly. IF in your heart you don�t think you can really do it�just tell him. Please. Only you know what is really in your heart of hearts. This is going to be a LONG journey. 2-5 years with many ups and downs.

Just be honest with yourself and with him. Isn�t it about time? Don�t you owe it to him and yourself to do the right thing here? What he is doing for YOU to even consider R is more gracious than you will ever know. Trust me. I am living it.

You should thank him every day for what he is doing. Start becoming an expert at meeting his needs and eliminate ALL LB�s.

You in it for the long-haul? Can you do this?

Ok, finances does at least cause some stress in marriage and with him taking a job that pays about half of what he was making, that stress IS coming.

I don't think you ever answered this post, mrscen.
Was this ever taken care of?

Yes Susie, it was - blocked from phone.

How did you do this?

Go to "settings" "general" "restrictions"- enable passlock, block apps.
As I told my H - my father entered the code so I don't have it.

What would make your BH feel safe?

For you to have a dumb phone?

OK that blocks the app, but what about the web browser, you can still log onto FB from there?

Yes. So why not get a dumb phone?

If that's what he needs to feel safe - then I will get a "dumb" phone.
I thought with mSpy on my phone that would make him feel better.

Have you asked him?

You seem to need a lot of prodding.
Why not just get the other phone to show him you're serious?

I pick up so much resentment from you that you have to make so many 'sacrifices' to help him.

How about going at this with the intention of making yourself a better person? A better wife and mother.

The phone police comment is just one example of what I mean here. You show reluctance to do the right thing and frame it as something for HIM instead of seeing it for the good of everyone, most importantly you.

I don't think you get it.

I think your assuming to much Zibbles - how does one "pick up resentment"? I have done nothing since I started this process but want to fix my marriage. I have been following the suggestions, advice and comments that have been made.
I'm sorry you feel I don't "get it" - that's just not how it is.

I am confused as to why you acted as if FB was blocked when it is still accessible through the web browser though? It seems to me, an outsider, that you were trying to make it seem as though you were honoring his request when you really weren't.

Plus you didn't respond when you brought this issue to our attention and it was recommended that you get the dumb phone.

It's like making half-hearted attempts when you should be going the extra mile to make your BH comfortable.

Have you seen this?
A Recovery Guide for Wayward Wives

Did you turn in your iPhone?

She's not going to turn in her iphone. She obviously values it more than her marriage. I mean, it has games on it!

Mrs.Cen, what gives?

@zibbles: I agree its not like you can use it to update your thread and better your marriage (insert heavy sarcasm).

Three weeks (and several note erasures) ago I noted that this WW had no intention of taking recovery seriously. ***EDIT***

ok Mrs. Cen. You've probably left here feeling all misunderstood and angry that we don't 'get' your situation.

You followed instructions and wrote out a timeline except you TEXTED IT? Huh?

I can see how you think you're following the steps but the way you're choosing to follow the steps is pretty damaging.

I guess you can say you tried once the divorce goes down and then get back out in the world armed with iphone and self satisfaction.

Well done.

The big problem I see, mrs.cen, is that you even had the capability to text the timeline, because you said you were going to give your husband your iPhone but didn't.

I don't appreciate being lied to.

Are my original suspicions of you correct? You left in a huff awhile back because I told your husband that you were just waiting for him to turn his back in order for you to go back to OM.

I told you to prove me wrong. I'm waiting.

Thread moved to SAA at request of OP.

So what did you think of Dr. Harley's advice?

Well, we were able to speak with Dr. Harley and his wife on the show this am - it was a real "kick in the a$$" - impulse control is a term I've heard and am somewhat familiar with BUT I never in a million years would have thought I had issue's with it - which clearly I do, it was defienetly hard to hear BUT what a relief - I'm encouraged as is my BS, I am looking into finding a new psychiatrist as he hasn't "caught" on to this impulse control.
I've also printed out the PORH and POJA so I can have them on hand, and we've committed to following them. I know (well I guess I don't) it will be a long road, I know (well I don't) it's not going to be easy - especially when I feel like an "spoiled brat" - BUT I've committed to work on that as well.

I'm blown away by the insight and care and advice shown to both of us - I think today we are both positive for the future - and it feels good.

We have a lot in common in that I once suffered from impulse control too. If you will commit to the PORH and POJA, you will get out of the habit of giving into every whim and will see an amazing difference in your life. My life was chaotic and crazy like yours until I got a handle on it. You will be SOO grateful to live in peace.

And your husband is the key to helping you get control. If he can control his anger, he will be an amazing resource for you.

Your stress and anxiety will go down to nothing. You will actually enjoy your life instead of living in fear of the next consequence to slap you in the face.

I'm looking forward to working on rebuilding "us". Thanks ML

my prayers are with you both. They say here recover is a marathon not a sprint.

I just listened - great radio show. Aren't Dr Harley and Joyce wonderful? I think I have been on the show myself three times and each time the help they gave me was invaluable.

Just wanted to add that when your H leaves because he feels an AO coming on, I know you requested that he tell you he is leaving and when he will back, etc. I would just recommend that you allow him to leave and text it. And don't respond.

I am concerned it will escalate to a fight if you force him to talk to you when he wants to leave. When you both have your lovebusters under better control, you can come to a different agreement. Just my 2 cents...

We (BS) both feel the advice was/is invaluable to the recovery of our marriage - as soon as we were off the show, we again read both policies and began implementing them.
We have spent some time googling psychologists in our area that deal with impulse control and infact the same place BS is going for his anger management classes is where one of the psychologists is.

I think that's a good idea Susie and BS agrees, so that's what we will do.

MrsCen, when that radio clip shows up in the archives, one of us can post the links. I think it would be an invaluable aide to your new psychologist to hear what Dr Harley has said. You could play that clip for him.

BS and I were just talking about that this morning - that we need to find someone who will first recognize the impulse control issue, followed by the anxiety attacks and depression.

I never even thought to link our clip and be able to play it! ML your a genious!!! Much thanks again to you and everyone.

Just now getting a chance to listen to your show, and it was a good one.

Joyce mentioned to you that you have all weekend to re-listen to the show -- have you had a chance to do that?

We both listened again on Friday after it originally played and again on Saturday.

As Dr. H told us the two agreements PORH & POJA (in particular) are going to be crucial to our recovery. I feel we've both made a real effort this weekend to practice them over and over (Dr. Harley said we needed to start right away)
I think my BS is having a bit harder of a time with the PORH, he doesn't want to "upset" me with what his thoughts are when they are "not good" - as he says.

My first time on the radio show was about this very topic. My wife was telling me thoughts she was having post-A that were extremely upsetting to me. Dr. H's advice was that RH trumps the side effects, and he was right. Now, I appreciate the past honesty much more and the foggy thoughts are long forgotten. In the future, you will appreciate his present RH much more that any lasting impressions of his negative thoughts.

Prisca and I listened to your show last night. Glad to hear that you guys were encouraged and have some direction! We here on the forum will do everything we can to help encourage and motivate you both to carry through on the advice Dr. Harley gave.

I'm pretty sure we've got some impulse control issues in our house; in fact, for awhile I nicknamed one of our boys "impulse control." For the record, my belief is that the Policy of Joint Agreement is a wonderful check on a person's life, to keep things in balance. I tend towards being what some might describe as "obsessive compulsive." On my own, I would obsess towards lots of little details that really don't add any value to life. For example, I might decide to waste half a day ironing handkerchiefs or something. I realized to some extent before getting married that I could NEVER expect my wife to want to handle everything with the level of detail that I always wished I could give everything. (In fact, I couldn't even make all of that work myself!) When we found the Policy of Joint Agreement, it helped me put that belief into a concrete form and realize that it needed to apply to everything in our life. I can't demand that my wife do things my way, or even insist on doing things my own way -- and I am a more balanced and happier person as a result!

This is a really good point here. I believe Prisca and I struggled with something similar until we started to get a handle on things.

It is great if he can tell you he needs to go calm down, but if he's upset he may not be able to do that, and if he feels cornered while he is having an angry outburst (temporarily insane) he may do something crazy like say you've eliminated the option to go calm down so now he has to have an angry outburst and is justified doing whatever he wants. It's great if he can tell you, but if he can't, don't demand it - just let things cool off, and then try to pick things back up together later.

Today I typically don't have to leave to go calm down, so it hasn't been as much of an issue! And if one of us does feel that need, we just tell the other.

I'm concerned that we haven't heard from either of you guys in awhile.

Thank you for your concern Markos! We are still "here", been focusing diligently on the two concepts the Harley's said we need, reading, reading and more reading!.

We had a "set back" of sorts yesterday - BS really let me "have it" with his immediate thoughts (PORH) and boy did it hurt! which lead to the start of AO's on both sides - I say "start" because we were both able (BS especially) to recognize, stop, and redirect our behaviour. Needless to say, I spent most of yesterday "digesting" his words. I believe I'm still coming to terms with the severity of what I did to him and our family and THAT is a hard pill to swallow.

He has found a rig job that will allow him to be home every night, however it may be as late as 8-9 pm, which will NOT allow us to spend the necessary time together each day/week that we need. I know his concern is still financial BUT the fact that BS brought up the time thing, leads me to believe that he "gets it", his worry still there though.

After our show, I cancelled my next appointment with my Psychiatrist, and am still in process of finding one that deals with Impulse Control and will allow BS to be with me in session which is my request. The one we found at BS's anger management course looks "ok", the only drawback is now having to return to my family do for medication, though we are both hopefull that once my impulse control issues are being "treated", I will be able to be med free!!

Any suggestions on helping BS through his "bad thought" times - I don't want to ignore it, I want to help, but I don't want I make it worse and come across patronizing if I try to reassure him.

I'll let the vets dissect the post but I am happy to hear your both on board with MB. I am nowhere near there yet and my thoughts and prayers are with you both.

Thank you TD.

As you know, this is step 1:

Have you thoroughly answered all of his questions to his satisfaction?

Have you come clean on all the facts of the A?

Is there ANYTING at all that you are still hiding from him?

The last thing you want to do is for facts to trickle out over time. This will set you back to square 1.

First you are going to have to come to grips that this is a marathon not a race. 2-5years to recover.

The biggest help that my FWW does for me is to be completely and radically honest, reassure me daily that she does not have a SSL, no hidden email accounts, no secret phone, no one is making LB deposits besides me, schedule and document our UA, meet my EN�s.

This would be a great start for you.

Do you ask him everyday "what you can do for him" "what does he need from you"?

Yes - All questions have been answered, there were some things BS wanted done regarding OM and past criminal activities and I was leary about speaking with police, however - I did so and it's done.
There will be NO "trickle truth" from me.

I do now BH, I hadn't always but I make a point through out the day to ask, we text frequently to just "check" in and we get a chance to speak to each other on the phone a few times during breaks as well.

Sounds like a good start indeed - thank you for the advice.

The best thing you can do for your husband is to build a romantic marriage with him. This is part of Just Compensation, and when you have achieved it, the "bad thoughts" and resentment will go away.

Have the two of you started going on dates yet?

WE DID!!!! We went on our "first" this past Saturday to a movie and then Sunday we had a "coffee" date at Second Cup! - it was sooo nice (until he had some "bad thoughts")

You need to start going on 4 dates a week, 4 hours each, concentrating on meeting the 4 Intimate Emotional Needs (Conversation, Affection, Recreational Companionship, and ending with Sexual Fulfillment). Will you do that?

Has he started Anger Management? I know he found a place to go, but has he actually started the classes yet?

Not yet - the next level 1 course is 2 days and runs July 6 & 13.
I spoke with a counsellor this am - they won't let BS attend my sessions with me - so I guess we have to look elsewhere - I think it's imperative for him to be on board and aware at all times with what's happening as far as my impulse control - as a nurse, I don't see how how it's a FOIP breech if its ME requesting he attend.
Really discouraged right now

Good on finding another one.

I'm very involved in my H treatment and go to every appointment. It was just one of the many good advice HHH gave me.

Will you do this?

Yes, 15 hours a week - can some of the dates be at home? As long as the kids are away? Or do we have to leave the house?

Yeah, people's buttholes pucker at thoughts of HIPPA and whatever else.

But, you are EXACTLY RIGHT; by involving him in your mental health plan-of-care, you are being Radically Honest and Transparent.

Also; wouldn't you say that his participation in your plan of care is a demonstration of care?


These things are part of an open, honest, and interdependent marriage as far as I'm concerned.

Dr. Harley recommends that these dates be out of the house. Will you do that?

The PORH is not for the purpose of blasting our spouses with our terrible thoughts about the recent tragedy. The PORH is so spouses can really get to know and more fully understand the other. It's so we can let our spouse know when something bothers us and to respectfully voice our complaints.

Once your H has all the necessary details of your affair, it does no good in the least to keep bringing it up in the spirit of Radical Honesty. I did that, too. I finally had to simply learn to swallow my words. It only made both of us miserable for me to keep bringing it up. Bringing up the mistakes of the past in an enemy of good conversation. He will feel miserable about the affair until your marriage improves. Recovery takes a couple of YEARS, at the minimum. Talking about it keeps bringing the agony into the present. He has to stop talking about it.

When he brings it up again, ask him to stop, "Honey, this conversation is becoming very unpleasant for me. I'm sorry for the pain I've caused you and want our future to be wonderful. Please don't talk about my failure anymore." Say it calmly and respectfully.

If he persists, then, again respectfully, tell him, "I need to step away from this conversation now." And then leave.

It's hard; it's very hard for the BS to stop talking about it, but it truly is absolutely necessary.

Talking about the A will not bring recovery faster; it will ruin the present.


Have you both looked at the potential schedule and carefully carved out your UA hours? This needs to be done. And you both need to agree on the job, ensuring that the job is supporting the marriage and not the other way around.


Your H will need to practice the habit of replacing the bad thoughts with more helpful ones. I had to constantly, as in many times a day, tell myself, often out loud, to look at what FWH is doing NOW. I've practiced this so much for the last couple of years that I hardly ever think about how awful he was for a while. I think of what a terrific man he has become instead.

When your H is feeling badly, he should come to you for comfort, as in a hug or holding each other. He may weep spontaneously or just look terribly sad. Go to him and just hold him. There are times, thankfully rare these days, when my loss comes into my thoughts. My H knows it simply by seeing my face. Even then we don't talk about it, he simply holds me.

Recovery and restoration is a process.

This is excellent advice:

BS and I have had a quite the day. He has not registered for his classes as he was supposed to, he had said he would put me on the lease but now as we move onto our third month of reconcillation he still refuses to but would like me to continue to contribute to half the bills, he told me and I quote "This is not my mess to fix, it's all yours to clean up, I just have to allow it to happen", he's also just texted and said he's accepted the rig job -
I'm truly at a loss right now, I do t know what he wants.

Well, if he's not registered for that anger management class, I would certainly start making preparations for how to live on your own.

Dr. Harley told you guys to email him going forward if you have any trouble. Send him an email!

I will so that now, I don't know what else TO do.

Did you write Dr. Harley again?

Many things, are beginning to come to "light" since our "D day", aside from BS having those pictures of girls on the computer - that I still haven't really gotten a straight answer other than "I don't even remember saving them, I don't know them etc", I found out recently that he has a profile on Match.com, when I confronted him initially he denied, denied, denied - then he went out and I got a text saying
"Yes, I did make a match profile months ago. The difference is I never used it I never $&?�% anyone else so please stop thinking you are anything special or have any special privileges"
I realize that I AM the WS, and I'm trying to fix our marriage but I haven't a clue how to take this???

He will delete that profile, right? If so, this can be a fairly minor issue, I think.

Will he delete it? Will he be transparent with you and let you verify he doesn't do anything like this in the future?

He is not being transparent with anything - unless caught (as he was tonight)he still has a "private" email account which I have no access to etc.
He has had a few AO lately, and his DJ's are getting worse, most recent tonight when he "demanded" we talk, that he needed to and I needed to listen, I told him, I would listen, but that I would not talk, he seems to think that if I don't want to talk, that I'm being uncaring, he's texted that I disgust him, that I don't deserve him, that he can get any girl he wants, and the list goes on. He thinks that I'm blaming him for my affair - I never have, I have always accepted responsibility for MY choice to engage in that behaviour.

As im not supposed to comment on his thread, what he has failed to mention, is I have our 8 year old daughter with me, I am at my parents, I don't hide my phone at all - in fact he took it away from me again and I don't even have it with me. I have not found a new doctor as of yet, however, I AM booked to see my old doctor on the 12th of July.

Did you write Dr. Harley again?

You guys need to quit debating this stuff.

You didn't thoroughly answer my questions - will he delete the Match profile? Did you ask him to delete it?

When either of you finds things wrong like this, you need to focus on solving the problem and finding solutions. The solution in this case is obvious: no more match.com, and transparency going forward.

mrs_cen, I have a question for you.

Is your husband enthusiastic about you having an iPhone?

That depends - when he wants me to have it, then yes he is, however, when he gets angry he takes it away from me or cuts the service off on it.

I would take that as a no and not have an iPhone. It sounds like he doesn't want you to have it but when he is not angry he capitulates and says it's okay with him for you to keep it.

Here's your show.
Radio Clip of RNR2013 & mrs.cen's Show
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4
Segment #5

I just listened to your show and I must say I am hopeful for you two. Dr Harley gave you two some great advice to get things going. Take him up on his offer to keep in touch and help you through this process.


From an EP perspective as a former wayward � you should no longer want a smart phone. Even if he thinks he may be OK with it � you shouldn�t want it. You should know it is just one more avenue where you could cross a boundary. Remove it from your list of available options. You�ll rest better knowing it�s gone.

There is where POJA is going to help you two so much. Having the phone shouldn�t be an at random decision that one makes in the moment. Establish a policy, make a decision and stick to it. IPhone or not? At a time when you are both thinking clearly if you both agree �No. It�s not a good option� then get rid of it � sell it, trade it in, throw it away.

Where it takes time getting the hang of POJA is learning to work together to brainstorm a solution. A lot of answers are things that are way out of the box for us. The answer to the problems many times are things you would normally not consider.

It can be hard especially when things are rather raw, sort of volatile in the relationship � when you are still a bit stuck in old behaviors. Until things like AOs are under control and the impulses to do whatever you want to do are replaced with healthier thoughts accept that POJA and brainstorming are going to be more difficult than they will be once they are gone. Accept that you two are rookies at this and at first it will most likely feel like a frustrating process. Recognize your part. Be flexible in taking the necessary time and be determined to put in the effort to get it right. If you need to separate and come back to it later then do that and do it without being resentful. But keep at it. Keep working PORH and POJA.

The great news for you two is that you have a plan that is going to help you remove those obstacles that keep you two from being successful at PORH and POJA. Keep your eye on the end goal where you two are totally immersed in caring and protecting each other and the marriage.

To me it always sounded odd to use the word �team� when discussing my marriage � but that is what my wife and I are. We�re a team. We now have the best interest of the �team� in all of our intentions. We didn�t always before but after following this program we now do. And it is a very comforting feeling knowing I can be completely honest with her and it isn�t going to lead to all sorts of poor behaviors coming from either one of us.

What are you doing signing up for a Twitter account?

What are you doing signing up for a Twitter account?

What are you doing setting up a new e-mail account?

What are you doing planning to establish a separate cell plan?

What are you doing......

Never mind! I KNOW what you're doing, ma'am. You haven't the GUTS to end the marriage that in your own warped mind has become inconvenient, and want to drive RNR into doing so.

Very, very sad....that you caused many well-meaning folks here to waste much time in the belief that you had a soul worth redeeming!

I concur. I'm glad RNR sees this as well

Great post, 20Year!

When you're serious about R, it shows.

For those MB members, that feel they have my "true convictions" pin pointed and have vocally labelled me with them as such ~ I'm sorry, you are not correct.
I have chosen to remain quiet and not comment on any of the last 24 hours until now. I will say only that my BS, has misunderstood some of the comments I've made, during our conversations - he has admitted in his own thread that perhaps he may have misconstrued certain things. Now, on saying that, I will not be apart of anymore of "THIS" - "he said/she said", it will do our marriage and all of its issues no good.
The bottom line is, I love my husband and I want my marriage, those that feel I'm not serious - are entitled to their opinion, and I respect that BUT the fact that it is "just an opinion" doesn't change.
I mean no disrespect to those who are truly trying to help me and my BS, I mean only to point out that not all "assumptions" are always all correct.

mrs_cen, you guys need to stop fighting, and I don't understand why nobody seems to be writing to Dr. Harley.

Stop doing anything your husband clearly isn't enthusiastic about (i.e., twitter, having a smart phone, etc.) Time to start subjecting those impulses to the POJA.

Therefore, you will give up the twitter, secret emails, etc and will be fully transparent, right? And will go forward with a polygraph, right?

Did you ever get rid of your iPhone?

Getting rid of the iPhone is a great idea!!!

Didn't Dr Harley advise you guys to re-read lovebusters?

Maybe I am getting things mixed up, but I would advise you two to re-read it perhaps even daily until you two get the lovebusters under control.

mrs_cen, you need to make sure to keep practicing the utmost transparency and the strictest extraordinary precautions, and following the program, and reaching out to Dr. Harley for help as needed.

There is nothing to be gained from arguing with posters on the forum about your sincerity. It doesn't matter what people believe. Your actions will show the truth. People have the right to assume whatever they want!

The big question to ask, all the time is, "Are we following the POJA?" Example being the twitter account: does your husband seem to feel happy in his gut that you have one? If not, you turn it over to him and let him delete it. Or the locked phone: was he turning cartwheels of joy about that? Definitely not, so you give him the password.

All of this is about behavior, not thoughts or feelings. Of course your husband is going to have negative feelings when he sees things like secret twitter accounts, locked phones, and anything else that he is not enthusiastic about. He's entitled to feel that way. Our job here as posters on Dr. Harley's forum is to help teach both of you how to stop doing the things that cause negative feelings in each other.

This is excellent advise.

You guys need to stop the damage, stop the bleeding. You will be in love with each other again if you stick to the plan and learn how to stop doing anything that the other finds demanding, disrespectful, or angry.

EXACTLY.

People doubt your sincerity because of your LACK OF ACTIONS in addition to the RISKS YOU ARE FLIRTING WITH.

Actions are needed at this point. Not words. What actions are you taking?

Edit

What was that?

There is no Twitter account - I had it for approximately 3 hours, I DID use our son's email, because of what I saw come into BS "private" email, I didn't want him to know I was "snopping", I locked the phone, so he would see it and ask, and he did - that's when and how I brought up the "spam" message, he asked for the code - I gave it to him, he deleted Twitter, and the phone remains unlocked - as stupid and insecure as it sounds, he's mentioned revenge more and more and he's said he's disgusted and sickened by me, it's almost like I'm waiting for him to leave me.

We have NOT been following the two principles that Dr. Harley said would help save our marriage - POJA/PORH, we've both been so busy with the "I said/you said" that I believe we've lost sight of what our true goal is.

I have finished reading SAA (BS has not) we ordered Love Busters on Kobo and are now waiting for it to come in on paperback so we have both. I have adamantly supported (though admitingly not always enthusiastically) the idea of a polygraph and that remains true today, BS was aware that I contacted the examiner back in June to enquire about cost,administration protocol etc.

We both are committed to each other, our family and making our marriage work, though I think we are "stuck" in not knowing what we should be doing and in what order.

Did you get rid of your iPhone?


1. Complete transparency, for both of you.
a. Practice PORH every day.
b. Practice POJA everyday.
c. Get rid of iPhone
d. Don't EVER use lack of transparency to get each others attention
2. Start reading lovebusters. Read it everyday.
4. Polygraph.
5. Four dates, 4 hours each, outside the home. Use this time to meet he four intimate emotional needs (conversation, affection, recreational companionship, sexual fulfillment).
6. Write Dr. Harley.

[quote=Prisca]Did you get rid of your iPhone?

No, I still have it - money is an issue right now, so getting a new one, even a "dummy one" isn't an option. I've offered to go without a phone, and have BS contacted me during the day through the landline, but BS does not want me to not have a phone, he (through his own admission) wants to be "able to get ahold of me whenever he wants".

Do I refuse to carry it?
Do we get a key logger program for it?

They have prepaid phones for cheap available. This is what markos and I are currently using. It's no big investment, and probably cheaper than what you're paying for the service for your iPhone.

Yes, your right - BS is not enthusiastic about buying another one, when we have two brand new ones on his plan. I guess I can just refuse to use the iPhone until I get a "dummy"

Something is not adding up. He's complained about the fact that you haven't gotten rid of it, and now he doesn't want you to get rid of it?

This is an issue that keeps coming up, and the two of you need to discuss it (with POJA) and come to a conclusion so that you can move on.

We've been discussing it tonight, he's agreed that we BOTH should give up the iPhones and get "dummy" phones. I AM in agreement as well.

Good.

Yay! One less fight!

Really, truly, as you tackle and resolve these conflicts, one by one, your marriage will improve in fits and starts.

Mrs_Cen,

I think if you read your post here you�ll see some things you can be doing to take on the steps Dr Harley asked you to. You two are supposed to have total transparency. Yet you�re snooping. It�s ok to snoop but you would have been better off just being radically honest with your H. The way you acted � he went off making all kinds of horrible assumptions � which needs to stop too.

If you�re going to save your M you need to be able to talk openly and honestly with each other. Every move you make, every action should be in accordance with PORH and POJA. The I said/ you said crap will be the death of your progress. The goal is to work together, lay down your hurts and egos, open yourself up to each other. The independent thinking, the need to lash out at each other, the need to be defensive towards each other � all those things go away once you engrain PORH and POJA into your everyday lives.

There shouldn�t be a single thing you should need to keep from your H. Nothing, zero, zilch. Any attempt to hide or conceal your action and true feelings will delay your progress. You have to open up, reveal your truths, explain your feelings.

It is better explained here by Dr. Harley.

Emotional Honesty

To clarify, both husband and wife should be snooping as much as they want. The real telling moments are when either one reacts negatively to this or tries to prevent it. For example, password protecting the phone she gave her husband -- very very bad sign! Or, suppose he were to get angry with her if he discovered her checking his email (I'm making this up as a hypothetical) -- also a very bad sign!

Both of them need to be inviting and WELCOMING the other to check up on them. The result of this will be a fantastic feeling of trust sometime down the road.

POJA is very, very important. However, if there is a boundary item, I will hypothetically pick having a Myspace account (since I haven't seen that mentioned), AND he is enthusiastic, I would still advise against it. Or make a joint account, with both of you having full access.

Point is, even if he's enthusiastic, if there's the slightest chance of secrecy or anything inappropriate happening even far down the road, YOU should avoid it because it's the right thing to do.

AJ and I each have our own FB account, the login for each other, and my mom has it, too, so she can send herself Farmville presents. I can think of few things to keep everything on the level better than having Mom/MIL popping in at odd hours every single day.

Whatever you do, keep the safety of the M paramount in both your minds. Extraordinary care and protection.

Have you given your BH the password to that email account? I think it's fishy.

The below is copied from my BS RNR's thread, as I'm not allowed to post on his thread, however I did want to clarify a few things.
Please not ~ I'm not "yelling" in my replys - just wanted to make my replys clear


"Wife has been saying she wants to and should go back on Facebook"

- I DID NOT SAY I WANTED TO GO BACK ON FB, I SAID PERHAPS I SHOULD LOOK AFTER BS'S QUESTION WHICH WAS AN EMAIL BACK FROM MARCH, ONCE IT WAS EXPRESSED THAT IT WAS AN EMAIL (WHICH BS HAD ACCESS TO AND IS NO LONGER IN "SERVICE" TODAY AND NOT FB - I DID NOT RE-ACTIVATED.

Today she's acting very strange and distant. I don't know what she's doing but she's hiding her phone and won't let me see it. I was going to take it and look at it but she would not allow me to leave the room with it. I think she ha made contact today or got messages?

IT IS MY THOUGHT THAT WHEN THINGS ARE GOING WELL, BS HAS TO THROW SOME KIND OF "WRENCH" IN, WHERR HIS COMMENTS TO ME TEND TO BE VERY BITING AND SOME DJ'S AS WELL - THIS HAS ALWAYS TAKEN ME ABACK - AND I HAVE A TENDENCY TO PULL AWAY (WHICH IS BS'S INTERPRETATION OF ME ACTING STRANGE)
AS FOR THE PHONE, I DID NOT HIDE IT, I SIMPLY ASKED WHY BS WAS LEAVING THE ROOM WITH IT, I HAD/HAVE NP WITH BS LOKING AT IT, BS MADE A NASTY COMMENT AND TOSSED IT AT ME AND LEFT THE ROOM, HE HAD/HAS ACCESS TO IT AT ANY TIME.
I HAVE REMAINED IN NC WITH OM.

Yep!

The interactions you have with each other need to be more respectful. Something as simple as questioning why he�s doing something is nothing but a trigger for him to become defensive.

Try this � instead of asking him my he�s leaving the room instead tell him what you would like.
�I would love it if you stayed near me when you look over my phone. I am willing to discuss anything you see on there. Anything. I would just like us to do it together. �

Saying it this way takes on a less accusatory tone, lets him know what you�re thinking and wanting and opens up an opportunity to POJA.

What I�m saying may sound like splitting hairs to you but I think you�ll find it can make a world of a difference. And before you go get all defensive just know your H is being questioned about his behavior as well. You both need to clean up your acts.

Next �
IT IS MY THOUGHT THAT WHEN THINGS ARE GOING WELL, BS HAS TO THROW SOME KIND OF "WRENCH" IN,

This is a DJ. This thought process has to stop. I get that what he�s saying or doing hurts and comes as a shock and that�s what needs to be communicated openly and honest to him. In no way should you come here with your assumption that he�s trying to sabotage your efforts. Huge DJ that is hard for many of us to recognize in ourselves.

What was your response to his behavior? �Ouch. What you just said there hurt. I thought things were going well, that we were moving forward and making progress. So I�m a little stunned."

As an aside, try a different color. All caps cause old guys like me to have flashbacks to the days of DEC PDP8's.

I think most readers are perceptive enough to know there is another side. Our real concern is over all the LBs you guys are experiencing. As I said to your H, I will also say to you; stay calm and controlled. If one of you starts to loose it, the other one should not just jump right in. Do you see the logic in this? It is time to direct your reasoning to override your emotions. Hopefully, each time at least one of the two of you can be successful enough to avoid the LBs.

I do see the logic, I will try and remain conttolled with no AO's.
I will plug my phone in on his side of the bed from now on, perhaps that will help as well.

This phone issue just seems to keep coming up again and again.

Because this was how you started and conducted your A, I suspect that this triggers your BH.

I know it will be hard but I suggest you just get rid of it and get a dumb phone that is for calls and texting only. Hasn't this already been suggested? I thought you two already said you were going to do this.


ETA:

In the meantime, if your BH wants to look or take it out of the room, for heaven's sakes, don't say anything. Don't question him about looking at it. It is going to take many many times of him looking and NOT seeing anything before he starts to feel comfortable again. When you question him (even if you feel it is completely benign) you are triggering him to be suspicious. That would trigger ANY betrayed spouse.

Exactly! It's important to avoid these fights like the plague. Just stay open, transparent, calm, controlled, responsive.

Are you guys exchanging a weekly love busters worksheet, like is suggested in Love Busters and the Five Steps workbook?

There are a lot of very good posts to you here today! Read and re-read.

NG, is just calling it as he sees it. The MB program isn't a marriage at all cost program. It is a program designed to make a marriage interdependant and intimate. If you refuse to get rid of your phone and act suspicious without any regard to your dear BH's feelings then he should just move on. I think that's point he's trying to push home. You (mrs. cen) have zero accountability because your BH allows you to do destructive things in your recovery which in turns makes him angry and he lovebusts you. It's a vicious circle, who will be the one to stop it? You or him?

Also, why haven't you followed the advice Dr. Harley gave you on the radio show? Why do you still have a smart phone? Why are you using Facebook? I think your plan is for your husband to give up and you can go about your affair with a clean conscious by saying "I tried and its not my fault" when in reality you didn't try.

When RNR says things like we can't afford the poly you should find money and get it done anyway. When RNR says sure keep the iPhone you should get rid of it anyway. You need to understand this man is afraid of doing the wrong thing and continues to capitulate in order to make you happy. When he can't take anymore he has an AO, which reinforces your paltry attempt at recovery.

I think one needs to be cautious in picking sides in this case. Why? Because what is needed most of all is to stop LB's, and using the forum as a source of referees isn't a good way to accomplish this.

You both know what you should be doing. Start working at love bank deposits rather than winning arguments. This is something that is totally doable. Go for it.

Unfortunately for you Mrs. Cen (and your H)...you are making many, many CHOICES right now that you will reflect back on in the future and severely regret...

And...I know you know it...

haven't you done enough damage? Isn't it time to consider his feelings? Isn't it time to put your own selfishness in the away forever?



That is what is so sad.

Once again the story being told by my BS is one sided. NO ONE, knows what goes on behind closed doors.
I won't do the he said/she said thing anymore - it makes no difference here and it serves no purpose.
I will only say AGAIN, that not everything one reads, is exactly how it is.

true. very true.

Two questions.

1) Did you tell him you would not give up FB regardless and that is 'the only thing you have'?

2) Are you taking his feelings into consideration with every decision you make?

3) Did you threaten Divorce?

If you are not going to offer positive advice, don't offer any at all.

Golly gee, Ma'am! I would have thought my suggestions to poor RNR were positive.

***EDIT***
- I also alluded to the positive benefits he might accrue by physically separating you from your favored "infidelity engine", your smart-phone. (Wasn't that a Dr. H suggestion, as well?)
- And I was forthrightly positive in my assessment that his best path right now would likely be Plan B. (MB precedent, you understand!)

I am very glad for this opportunity to set the record straight.

POSTERS: Please stick to MB principles when advising this couple, or refrain from posting.

mrs cen,

We still appear to be in the same circle where we were just a few weeks ago.

Your behavior, once again, is coming across as one entitled teenage girl. No one deserves the abuse of an AO........neither the wayward or the betrayed. Your role, based on YOUR postings leads myself to believe that your role is greater than just a "helpless female victim".

How about you FINALLY get off that crazy circle, take some humility, humble yourself and get to work on your marriage?

Both yourself and your betrayed deserve so much better......but someone has to step out of this crazy cycle and STAY out of the crazy cycle.

How about a marriage builders marriage?

The patience of many vets are wearing very thin. You better hurry up because your last chance a healthy and romantic marriage has just about left the train station.

Mrs_cen, remember: Action, not words.

On the contrary, this is the ONLY thing you have done in the past several weeks, is to post a temper tantrum on your thread when your husband posts.

Do you want some kind of award for that?


At this point, with your chosen behavior, you are a waste of our time.

Why not quit wasting time, and tell us how you are keeping your side of the street clean?

Ditto, HHH. Mrs. Cen, you are taking a huge gift and whining it aside, my friend.

Get serious and woman-up already. Get a grip, and take some control over your future. The excuses are irritating to strangers here trying to help you, so I can't imagine on a daily basis.

Mrs. Cen, you have tools right here. Use them.

Ditto!

Mrs. Cen,

I actually stopped reading your and your husbands threads weeks ago because they honestly wore me out. I just happened to see them again and decided to take a peak to see if there were any changes. It seems like everyone has grown tired of the endless cycle that you and your H have continued.

Instead of reading each others threads you need to read up on FWWs who have humbly worked the program to make their marriages better and affair proof.

You need to read (or reread) all of Dr. H's books and start taking action. To me it seems like you both are using this site to shovel dirt on each other, not clean up your sides of the street.

Here's a good clip for you and your BH.
Radio Clip

Do you know the real definition of empathy?

Can someone please explain to me what "Just Compensation" is and what some examples of such are?
I have read the definition but I'm not sure what my BS is looking for when he says he wants JC

Just Compensation is:
1. Ending all contact with the affair partner for life
2. Removing the conditions that led to the affair (Extraordinary Precautions).
3. Creating a romantic relationship using Marriage Builders concepts.

And, Mrs Cen, this means that the marriage is Romantic and loving for you, too! Not just your husband!

1. Ending all contact with the affair partner for life
Examples: NC letter, phone number changed, email changed ...

2. Removing the conditions that led to the affair (Extraordinary Precautions).
Examples: Facebook shutdown, Radical Honesty (no secret second life), job change, no more nights apart ...

3. Creating a romantic relationship using Marriage Builders concepts.
Examples: Eliminate Lovebusters, POJA, PORH, meet EN, UA time each week ...

If the first two have been completed, and we are supposed to be working on the third but BS has said "Just Compensation NOW or we are finished" what else should I be doing?

Mrs. Cen, let me make an assumption (as a BH) that your BH wants you to show some empathy and help him heal.

He wants to know that you will never hurt him again.

Your 'R' is off to a rocky start. We have seen little signs that you recognize what HE is going through and making massive effort to meet his needs AND create a sense of SAFETY for him.

Right now he feels extraordinarily vulnerable to your attacks on him. His entire perception system of how he sees the world has been rocked.

How about asking him daily (and MEANING it) 'What can I do for you today?" How about showing some humility?

How about being proactive in your R to show him you are serious? How about pulling out LB's or SAA books on your own and asking him if you can read a chapter together?

The most important attribute I think you can show him is Patience...

How about making your best effort to FALL IN LOVE with him again??

Feelings follow actions, Mrs. Cen.

Remember, Mrs. Cen, even if you have completed 1 and 2 (have you really?) those realities to him are super fresh. It takes YEARS to recover from an A.


If 1 and 2 were just done in the last few days, it is going to take time for him to believe that you are going to follow through on these and not slide.

It takes months if not years to master POJA, PORH, and becoming an expert at meeting EN's.

If you have completed the first 2, and are working on the 3rd, then you are giving him Just Compensation now.

What are you doing to work on the 3rd?
How much UA are you getting?
How many dates do the 2 of you go on? Doing what?
What EN are you meeting?
How is POJA and PORH going?
Have you eliminated your lovebusters? If no, what are you doing to eliminate them?

Working with your BS to brainstorm ideas for mutually enjoyable UA time - and it needs to be 20+ hours a week.

And then, you need to follow through on that UA time.

You should also be respectfully communicating your Emotional Needs, and letting him know about his Love Busters.

What are you doing to work on the 3rd? - We are now reading LB together, and working most on how to handle our emotions, especially when we are upset. Making sure with each and every decision there is to be made - we are doing it as a couple and with POJA.

How much UA are you getting? - ?

How many dates do the 2 of you go on? Doing what? We try for a few a week, sometimes it's early morning - to walk the dog and get coffee, sometimes to the mall, antique markets

What EN are you meeting? Both our EN's are quite similar, our top five are the same ~ just in a slightly different order; Conversation, Recteational Companionship, Financial support, sexual fufillment and honesty and openness.

How is POJA and PORH going? We are doing well with it,

Have you eliminated your lovebusters? If no, what are you doing to eliminate them? See you first question

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I see what your saying, I don't have any "timeline" on how long it will take him to "recover".

I have also emailed Dr. Harley again ~ just waiting on response, another thing that was suggested in BS's thread was doing one of the online courses.

What do you do when one of you is not enthusiastic about something?

This is a big problem. Marriage Builders will not work without UA, and it is vital that you get enough hours of UA. As HHH said above, you two need a minimum of 20 hours a week together. You need to start scheduling your time together and tracking your time together to insure you are getting the time in.

Do you both enjoy these activities? Your dates need to concentrate on the 4 intimate Emotional Needs: Intimate Conversation, Recreational Companionship, Affection and Sexual Fulfillment. Are the two of you concentrating on these, and are they enjoyable?

I have seen some problems between you two with PORH. Both of you tend to react very negatively when the other is honest. Is that improving?

You both also tend to have Independant Behavior, especially when you are upset, instead of following POJA. Is that improving?

I STRONGLY suggest this for you.
Markos and I did the online course. We were given a coach to help guide us, and we had direct access to Dr. Harley on the private forum. It was the best investment we have ever made for our marriage.

MB requires teamwork! However, much of his timeline to R is predicated on your involvement and doing your part of the MB program.

Your actions are in direct correlation with his 'timeline' to R. Realistically, 2-5 years.


Expect 2 steps forward and then 3 steps back...2 steps back then 4 steps forward...on and on.


It is a process.

What do you do when one of you is not enthusiastic about something? We don't do it, or we find a way that is agreeable to joth of us.

Do you both enjoy these activities? Yes! things I NEVER thought BS would like to do with me OR be interested in he does - farmers markets and antique markets for example.

How is POJA and PORH going? POJA is going well, we are finding it coming easier and easier - things we never would have thought to ask the other, we do now, "would you like to go to my sisters on the weekend?" Instead of "we were invited and we're going"

You both also tend to have Independant Behavior, especially when you are upset, instead of following POJA. Is that improving? That part IS going well, I believe the LB's influence us to display the independant behaviour, it is something that we both recognize and are working on.

You need to start scheduling your time together and tracking your time together to insure you are getting the time in. We are not keeping track of our time, I will suggest we get a little book to start this though.

We can explain what JC is, but that doesn't tell you exactly what he means. This is where POJA and the PORH come in. You and he need to have a *safe* discussion about this. No fighting, no disrespect, just what do we need to do, and how well are we doing at getting there.

BS said today that its "my job to figure it out, he's done with it now" I did ask what else I could do, what else does he need and he won't answer.

Keep doing what you're doing. Make UA a priority (20 hours!), eliminate your lovebusters, and keep up with the POJA an PORH.

Have you read this?
Can't We Just Forgive and Forget
Steps to Recover from an Affair

Have you asked your BH what he needs from you?
What you can do for him?

I haven't read them, but will do so.
I have asked BS but he says we aren't supposed to talk about it, so there is Nothing I can do, he says he just has to "deal with it".

Don't press him. What you CAN do is concentrate on following the program: UA, elimination of Lovebusters, POJA and PORH.

Exactly.

What Love Busters are you guilty of? What are you doing to eliminate them?

I've been guilty of all 6 of them at some point. Right now, I think the one I'm most guilty of is Angry Outbursts - how I'm trying to eleminate them, is to follow Dr. Harley's advice and create a short-circuit habit (right now it's just stopping whatever I'm doing and walking away)

Have you listened to the clips in here?
Anger Management 101

Do you have the book Love Busters?

We have the book, and are reading it together.

Whenever a couple is not feeling "in love", or if R is bumping along harder than it needs to, it's almost always a shortage of UA time. Even now, if AJ and I begin to feel less connected to each other, it's a fast indicator that we're not getting our UA time in. And as soon as the UA time increases, (an action), the good feelings follow.

You don't need to leave home for 20+ hours a week, or go on that many dates. The point is that you're paying attention to each other, and some of the best UA time occurs in private, anyway.

While continuing all the good things you're already doing, spend your UA making positive memories and associations with each other. That should make an improvement in your R. It's hard enough without making it even harder.

Good. Have you read the chapter on AOs?

That's the one we start next!

Fantastic.

Have you listened to Dr. Harley's clips on anger management 101 thread I posted to you?

Listen to them together.

Prisca suggested UA time as well and to keep track of it, if we don't have to leave the house, we are getting a bit more time then, after supper we get our coffee and sit out on the balcony together talking and just being together (for example)

I'm listening to them now, I will share with BS when he comes home.

Also make sure you're focusing on his top 3 needs. You should be meeting his top 3 all the time, and the top 5 most of the time. Do you know what his top 3 are? Chances are good that Admiration, SF, and RC are some of the important ones. Whatever they are, make a habit of checking off his top 3 every single day. Something like Admiration you can meet several times a day.

Good. Tell us what you learned from them.

Did you guys agree to do the online program?

The biggest thing I've learned so far from those clips is - "I" have a choice to become angry. I always figured it was whomever made you angry was the one responsible for your anger.
Also, Dr.H talks about what to do if you CAN'T get out of a situation that you feel is making you angry - (which is also what I read in the LB book) creating a way to reduce the adrenalin to reduce the anger - another "short-circuit" habit if you will. Which is what I'm working on.

Haven't spoken to BS about the online program ~ will wait until he is home from work.

Good job.

That's the biggest lesson I learned also. I'm responsible for my own actions. We can't control others only ourselves.