I bought your book tonight and me and my wife sat down to read it. I made it to the second chapter was was overcome with a feeling of wanting to divorce more than ever? Someone care to explain how this is supposed to save a marriage? I stopped reading it right there and may try reading it alone.

Hi, RNR, welcome to Marriage Builders.

I am very sorry for the circumstances that brought you here. If you want to recover your marriage, we can help you learn how to use Dr. Harley's Marriage Builders principles to do that. If you choose not to recover your marriage after an affair, everybody here will support you in that. Infidelity is the worst trauma that any human being can inflict upon another. It is hard to believe that a relationship could be restored after that and that romantic love could flourish. Yet, Dr. Harley has been helping couples to recover from infidelity for decades now.

The choice is yours, my friend, and we would love to help you.

Here is Dr. Harley's video about infidelity. It is very informative:

www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi1001_infidelity0.html‎

RNR, which book? Do you remember which part upset you?

I know it doesn't seem like it now, but if you stick with this you can have a marriage that is 10x better than what you had before. It can be happy, passionate and fulfilling. You will not always feel this pain.

I just get the impression that this book states that what was/is done is "OK"? Something sacred was lost and may never return is that ok?

My w was given the opportunity to try and make things better "before anything happened" but she instead chose to go and have this affair while I sat at home with our daughter. These things are very hard to over come and I am having great difficulty doing so as she did have a choice and I was not it but am now?

Which book, RNR?

RNR, I am terribly sorry that you are going through this. All of the questions you are grappling with make perfect sense and are very hard questions. You want to take some time to think this through, and you want to make sure you do it rationally so that you make a good decision.

Have you seen your doctor about getting some antidepressants prescribed for awhile? Dr. Harley will often recommend that his clients get a doctor to prescribe antidepressants during the initial shock after an affair to help them stay calm so they can think through their options.

RNR, we hate affairs here, and we know that it hurts very much. Many people here have been able to recover using Dr. Harley's plans. There are others who have chosen not to take their wayward spouse back, and we support those who make that decision as well. Either way, you can have a bright future ahead of you, and we would love to help you get there.

Dr. Harley does NOT believe that an affair is "okay." !!!

According to the research Dr. H has studied, and research he has conducted, an affair is pretty much THE MOST TRAUMATIC THING one human being can do to another. People who have lost a limb, and suffered through infidelity, report that the affair hurt WORSE. People who have lost a CHILD, and suffered through infidelity, report that the affair hurt WORSE. When my dad suffered through my mother's affair, a supportive friend reported that his first marriage ended when his wife was unfaithful and second ended when his wife died, and the affair hurt WORSE.

No, an affair is NOT OKAY! Not even close!

What we want to do is help you recover, to help you to become okay, for the sake of yourself, and your children.

Right now you are like a traumatic burn victim whose skin has been completely burned off. We are going to need to start with some burn cream.

How long ago did you find out about the affair, RNR? What day?

How long did the affair last? When did it end?

Has your wife cut off any possibility of contact with the affair partner? Changed numbers, email addresses, etc.? If she worked with him, has she quit that job?

She says she has cut off all communication but I can't be sure. Over the past month that we have been trying reconciling I have seen Facebook messages from him to her and her to him. I have also see messages coming in on her phone from him. She says she was not responding but I am pretty sure she was, she said it was her cousin? I'm trying to trust her but I keep seeing these things. I am unsure about her e-mail.

This all means her affair is still active. If she is serious about ending her affair, she will delete Facebook and change her phone number and her email address. Are you separated?

And who is this rotten piece of crap? Have you exposed the affair to his family and friends?

RNR, has she changed her cell number?

I would insist on a joint Facebook or she should shut it down altogether.

But she can still contact the OM and see his Facebook page if they have a joint account. She needs to delete it entirely.

We are reconciling in the same apartment. She did give me access to her Facebook on my phone and I did see a message come in from om once. She then took it away from me and says she has not logged in since an has deactivated her FB account. All of which I have to take her word for, it does seem like she is serious and trying but there has been communication but as far as I can tell nothing in the past few weeks and we have been together all the time other than when we are at work. I don't know what she is doin with her email but she did change her cell number.

Would you take the word of a drug addict?
You cannot just take her word for it.

I sure wouldn't take her word for it. She needs to provide a way to PROVE she has cut off contact. For example, she needs to change her email address so he can't reach her. What if she is calling him from work? How would she prove to you she is not?

As a BS you must base everything from this point forward by her ACTIONS not her WORD! That may come later if she can prove to you again and again that she can be honest.

If she really wants to move on with you, she will welcome every opportunity to prove her word.

My wife had an A almost a year ago and she still knows to ensure I know her whereabouts at all times.

" I don't know what she is doin with her email"

How will you know?

You need to check and verify every single move she makes...it stinks at first but you will get a feel for what is right and wrong.

I agree with melody lane, could there be contact from the work phone? I have a tough time monitoring my wife's work phone, but people she works with know of the A and are a set of eyes and ears..

Do all you can to watch her until her word proves to be credible. She placed herself in this position of distrust and must welcome the chance to prove she can be honest...

Her getting messages from the other man and not responding is not enough. She will be triggered every time she hears from him. And your fears will be ignited every time it happens. She needs to build a wall he can't get through.

I would start by leaving facebook.

She is very upset by this thread right now. All I have done is tell you what I have seen over the past month that we've been trying to reconcile. She just tried to smash her phone and said she doesn't want it anymore, she said its causing too much trouble.

"She did give me access to her Facebook on my phone and I did see a message come in from om once. She then took it away from me and says she has not logged in since an has deactivated her FB account. All of which I have to take her word for, it"

None of this is an indication that she deleted her Facebook. How would you have proof of this? What would you find if you exchange phones with her tonight?

Sounds pretty dramatic. Trying to remove some evidence?

I'm sorry she's upset, but you know, what she did is very upsetting.

I think smashing the phone is a great idea. Then kill the facebook account. Hand over the passwords to all her old accounts to you and then you change them.

If you two can walk the steps here you can recover and have a wonderful marriage. Many people here have done it. But the first step is to provide security for the marriage -- verified no contact, for life.

If she'll walk this road, and you are willing to walk it, we'll have you acting in a way that will have her happy beyond belief (and vice versa).

My situation...wife's phone number changed, FB totally shut down, one email jointly between wife and I, we go everywhere together, except work, and I ha e access to work email..

We also moved from a brand new home to get out of the immediate area so wife and OM would not be in the same community...

You must set the perimeter s based on MB principles and insist she comply or be done until she is on board.

I don't mean to sound insensitive, but this is serious emotional pain and the things she does or does not do will be what keeps you sleeping at night...

What is there to be so upset about?
I don't see anything on this thread to be upset about, unless she is hiding something ...

Perhaps all of you that are "trying to help" should take a look at "My Story" - many of the things that are being "suggested" have been done - for eg. I have NO facebook account, I have NO email account, my phone number has been changed RNR has access to EVERYTHING, and has a 24 hour schedule of my whereabouts at all times and ways to contact and verify that as well, the Affair IS over (thank you "Prisca" for suggesting otherwise)

How about just exchanging your phones? See for yourself if that POS calls, emails or contacts her on Facebook.

By the way, you know how long it takes to reactivity a Facebook page? About 2 seconds.

Then there's no problem, right? Just stay open and be glad for him to check any of these things at any time.

When my wife and I started posting here together, we were given the following advice: read each other's threads, but don't post on each other's threads, and don't respond on your own thread to stuff on each other's threads because it makes a nasty back and forth.

Here is what your husband said: "We are reconciling in the same apartment. She did give me access to her Facebook on my phone and I did see a message come in from om once. She then took it away from me and says she has not logged in since an has deactivated her FB account. All of which I have to take her word for"

All of this is based on what you TOLD him. A 24 hour schedule is based on what you TELL him.

Why are you so snippy when it is questioned whether you are doing what needs to be done?
What are you hiding?

No, it is based on the 8 1-2 hours I am NOT physically with him, he can verify I'm at work by calling my boss.

Prisca - it was not "questioned" as you state above, what you said is "the affair is not over" -

How does he verify you are not in contact with the OM, though?

YES!

Facebook needs to be blocked. Reactivating an account is too easy to do. Creating a new account is easy, too. Get rid of it totally.

*i* said that based on his comment tonight and the fact that he has only has your word the affair is over:

"She says she has cut off all communication but I can't be sure. Over the past month that we have been trying reconciling I have seen Facebook messages from him to her and her to him. I have also see messages coming in on her phone from him. She says she was not responding but I am pretty sure she was, she said it was her cousin? I'm trying to trust her but I keep seeing these things. I am unsure about her e-mail."

If it's over, why be offended?
Show him. Prove it.

mrs_cen, getting angry at us or your husband is not going to help your marriage at all.

For the record, Dr. Harley told me that I absolutely needed to take anger management and eliminate angry outbursts from my life. I know a thing or two about anger.

If everything is fine, as you say, then there is no reason in the world to get angry at us or your husband for checking every bit of the story. Just keep opening up and wait to be vindicated.

And quit posting on your husband's thread, okay?

Sorry, I won't post anything more about this tonight. I do have question about my job. I am a driller on a rig, I usually work three weeks away from home and one week off. I have not worked since I found all this out because I wanted to be home with our daughter. I will have to go back to work on the rig soon. How will this affect my situation?

I will finish reading " Surviving an affair" this weekend.

The effect will not be good. Nights apart are murder on marriage, are murder for the intimacy in marriage, and are of course a perfect opportunity for affairs to happen and reignite.

So, you are sating that if we are to make this work I will need a career change?

Do not expect her to remain faithful while you are gone.

YES.

I would suspect, in fact, that she's doing "just enough" to get by right now, waiting for you to leave ...

EMPHATICALLY. You should never spend the night apart again.

Could someone please tell me what she has to do to show me that it is over and won't happen again? I don't know what needs to be done.

Read this. Traveling Jobs

And this Recovery After an Affair

Together the two of you need to change the circumstances that led to the affair; you need to make sure those circumstances never happen again. You need to make it impossible for OM to ever contact her again. If she balks at this, then it can't be done and you will have no assurance.

And the two of you need to fall in love again, using the procedures described by Dr. Harley on this site. After an affair the marriage needs to become better than it ever was, and the problems that existed before in the marriage need to be finally fixed. Her complaints as well as yours will have to be addressed and situations corrected.

Have you watched Dr. Harley's video on infidelity yet?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi1001_infidelity0.html

Here is Dr. Harley's plan for recovery after an affair, including making the marriage affair proof so that an affair can never happen again:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb2.cfm?recno=4&sublink=33

I don't know how I can? I have a daughter to provide for. I do have a city job right now while we are working on this but I don't think it will pay the bills for long. Although right now I say that, if trust is slowly established than I think I could leave my job.

There has got to be a way. I think Dr. Harley has counseled several guys who've worked on oil rigs and they've found other jobs close to home.

Thinking of your daughter, whether you recover your marriage or not - she's going to be without you for much of the time if you stay in this job. And if the affair reignites, she'll be raised mostly under her mother's care. Men or women in affairs do not make good parents. And many OM (other men) are also pedophiles and predators. They are not exactly know for high morals.

The best possible outcome for your daughter is to continue to live with both her parents, full time, with no affair going on, in a recovered marriage. But there is no way to recover your marriage if you are gone so much.

Three weeks offshore and one week home. Think about that. Three-quarters of your married life is spent apart from your wife. You spend much more of your life living as a single man than as a husband, and the same for her as a wife.

What kind of marriage is that? How close a marriage is that?

I think you should underdstand no nights apart means a new job for you.

I am in love with my wife otherwise I would not still be around. She has stated that she does not think this forum is good for us but I think it is needed. My wife has said that she will not be returning here but I will continue to seek help from you all. I have not finishe the book yet but I will begin reading it again tonight. I asked my wife to continue posting to receive help but she flat out refused, even if it means ending our marriage.

RNR, I am glad you came back. Don't force her to come here. We can help you lead your marriage out of the ditch.

The biggest issue in your marriage is going to be your job and the overnight travel. Have you given this some thought?

I'm not forcing her although I did say I hoped she would. As for my job, we have decided that I will take some time away just to see if I can ever rebuild trust again. I however, don't see why I should have to give up a 12 year career for something I never did. If it has to end it will if not than we will live a happy life together. I'm leaving it to My wife and god to work this out. I'm goin to do my part and be a husband to the woman I love.

You should give it up because it is bad for your marriage. But you already know this - you have learned this the hard way. This is very probably the reason your wife had the affair.

If you won't do this, there is no point in trying to recover. You have to be together every day to create a happy, passionate marriage. A job where you are apart all the time is an invitation to an affair. And it is impossible to create a romantic, passionate marriage if you are apart.

Your career should complement your marriage, not the other way around. Anything that comes BEFORE your marriage will eventually come between you. And your traveling job has done exactly that.

And you don't HAVE to do anything. But if you want to have a marriage that is affair free and is happy and passionate, there is no other way.

I will say that our marriage is very passionate right now.

It won't be "passionate" if you have a traveling job. In order to have a romantic, passionate marriage that is free from affairs, you have to be together every day meeting each other's emotional needs.

It takes 15 hours of undivided attention per week to SUSTAIN romantic love. It takes 20-25 to create romantic love. I assure you your wife was not in love with you when she had her affair. And a huge part of the reason is because you were gone.

I really don't like having to be a babysitter of a grown person who can make their own choices in life. If that person truly loves me than I should have no worries but yet I do. It happened and that really plays with my head. If a person can fall out of love with someone so easily I have to wonder if I want to be with anyone, I am going to give this everything I have and I will stay home for sometime and see how this all plays out, if she loves me she will show me if not she will still show me. I cannot give up my rig job as I don't know how this will end up although I am feeling that we will make it but if we don't than I will continue to to work the rig making big money and just live an awesome life possibly with another or just stay alone.or I will have an awesome life with my beautiful wife.

That's fine. You don't have to do anything. You are an adult. Your argument is not with me, but with reality. I am just telling you that you won't ever have a marriage unless you find a job where you are home every night.

It doesn't matter who you are married to, if you keep that job you will destroy your marriage because you and your wife will fall out of love.

So if you stay home for a while and work on the marriage, all that will be lost if you go back to your traveling job.

You might want to check out this thread and listen to Dr Harley's radio clips. I know you want to believe you are different, but I would point out that you already know this is not true. Affairs are epidemic in marriages where one spouse travels. You have proven that statistic true. Separations lead to affairs.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=165049&Number=2563215#Post2563215

If it doesn't work out, I think you are going to want to be around more often for your daughter. If her parents' marriage ends in divorce she is going to seriously need you. If your wife goes back to her affair or into another, your daughter is going to ULTRA SERIOUSLY NEED YOU, her FATHER.

I did a lot of thinking about your alternatives the other night. It really does suck to feel you have to give up your job because of your wife's affair. I know the fair thing is that you should not have to give anything up. But the fact is you have a daughter depending on you. The best possible outcome for her is that her parents stay married and in love with each other for life. If her mother does not stay faithful, then the best possible outcome for her is to live with her father, not her wayward mother.

For your daughter, I think you really need to start looking at other career options. I think this would have been a good idea even if your wife had not had an affair.

RNR,

You are thinking about this the wrong way. Pretending you are sacrificing.

You shouldn't have to give up your job because of something she did. That being she had an affair. You should give it up because having it means you haven't been the H your W needs you to be. Ask any woman if they'd be willing to sign up for a M where they would see their H 1/4 of their married life. See what kind of response you'd get. I'm quite certain you'd get an almost unanimous NO.

If you are seriously OK with being alone the rest of your life that is your choice and no one will argue that. But if you believe you want to have a happy marriage and be a good H who meets his W's needs you will have to make some decisions on how you are going to do that. Being together for quality time once out of 3 or 4 weeks won't cut it ... no matter who your W is.

I�m sorry your W is refusing to come here anymore. I�m not surprised though. It�s hard to get hammered with 2x4s and be able to stand up and take it. This program is EXACTLY what you two need. For her to say it isn't right for you is simply having a closed mind. What you are doing today isn't working. To be unwilling to realize that and give this program a try could be the end of your M.

You are still here and that is great. I hope you are open to 2x4s. You like all people who come here looking for a solution get their fair share.

One of the key things we learn here at MB is that love isn't something that just happens. Love follows actions. You love someone because they meet your needs. It isn't a switch you turn on. It has conditions. It is a button that a spouse will push each and every day that registers in their partner�s head the feelings of love.

You say she fell out of love with you so easily � really? Do you really believe it was easy for her? That�s a big old disrespectful judgment. I�m not going to sit her e and defend what she did. We all know what she did was the most hurtful thing a human being could do to another. But I do want you to realize the disintegration of your M wasn�t her having the affair. It was the result of things prior to it that did that. That happened long before she did what she did.

You weren�t there to meet her needs, to push her button to remind her of your love. Someone else stepped in to push it for you.

You say you love your W but being able to show that love so that she feels it has conditions.

Keep reading. It will do you a world of good if you ever get to understand why marriages fail and why affairs happen. Dr Harley�s plan works.

Your marriage can survive on a lower budget but it can't survive with its patriarch gone all the time. Many of men made the financial over emotional presence mistake. Don't fall into that category, I don't condone your WWs actions but there are reasons for affairs not excuses. One reason was that you were gone all the time. Eliminate it now.

Could someone please explain "the fog" to me? Is someone who is still in this "fog" still considered to be in the A? I noticed my wife looking through a thread called "getting through the fog". Not sure how I should take this?

What are Plan A and Plan B

"The fog" is a term Dr. Harley uses to describe the state of a person's brain during an affair. An affair is literally an addiction to a person. In many ways it is the same as an addiction to heroin or alcohol! And just as an addict will say or do all kinds of things that don't make sense to get their fix, an affairee will often express many irrational thoughts during their addiction. For example, a man may have fallen in love with a coworker who weighs a lot more than his wife, is older, and doesn't look anywhere near as good as his wife, but in his fogged out state he may babble incessantly about how beautiful she is and how his wife "let herself go." To most outside observers he sounds ludicrous, but in his foggy state he thinks he makes perfect sense.

As far as your wife reading threads, I would not put any interpretation on that. She might be learning something useful for recovery, she might be thinking things over, or she might hate everybody here and be looking for ways to try to argue what we have to say here. You can't read her mind and it would be disrespectful to try.

I strongly encourage you to take yourself through a course of self-education around here:

Dr. Harley's video about infidelity:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi1001_infidelity0.html

Dr. Harley's Q&A columns about surviving an affair:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb2.cfm?recno=4&sublink=33

Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb3.cfm?recno=3

Marriage Builders Radio:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb3.cfm?recno=12

Everything I have linked is given away by Dr. Harley for free and has saved hundreds if not thousands of marriages.

In alot of ways my marriage has never been better. It's like when we first meet but I still can't find it in me to trust anything. She says that everything is over and I am the only one but I just can't believe it, what do I do?

She has been untrustworthy, you don't have to trust her yet. My WH has been in NC for over a year and I still don't trust him. But as I find time going on and he is being transparent and open with me, I able to find that trust building back up. I will never naively trust him again but I am able to "relax" more as time goes on.

A lack of trust is a good thing because it leads you to take better care of your marriage. Now you will keep a closer watch on your marriage hopefully and not rely on blind trust.

Has she become fully transparent to you? Has she given you access to every part of her life? Has she blocked facebook?
If everything is open and transparent, you don't need trust.

I don't know for sure. She says she has but there's no way to tell for certain?

Trust is an emotion. You can't force yourself to feel it. You have to create the right psychological environment to bring it about. The way to do that is with evidence: trust (the emotion) is built over time when repeated evidence adds up to trust being a reasonable conclusion for your emotions.

The Marriage Builders program achieves trust when it is followed. Eventually, people who follow these principles will feel the feeling of trust.

Trust is a natural feeling with a specific cause. If you check up on your spouse until you feel bored about it, you will feel trust. If you would like to have trust in your marriage, this is the way to create it. Trying to pretend you feel it when you don't is a recipe for disaster. Dr. Harley is a clinical psychologist who knows a thing or two about feelings, and he knows you can't just make yourself feel a certain way. Your spouse's behavior will have to cause your feelings.

Here is what I once posted to a wayward husband who was disappointed that his betrayed wife did not yet trust him:


If your wife is willing to act in certain ways and is consistent about it, then in Dr. Harley's experience, you will eventually feel trust.

It's up to your wife to make you feel trust, not you.

By the way, if you keep spending nights apart, then according to Dr. Harley, you will never feel trust.

There is a way to tell for certain. Keep checking up on her.
If she's serious, she will have no problem with this.

My wife had an affair with this guy for three months and was gone away with him for four and five days at a time on a weekly basis and she says she doesn't know where he lives or works so she can't send the letter?

Sounds like an excuse a simple background check can get that information. She is hedging her bets. Whitepages.com is a good site on finding mailing addresses. I'm nowhere near recovery but I am pretty sure this step CANNOT be skipped. She just has her feet in the pool and refusing to take the plunge.

Yes, this step cannot be skipped.
She CAN find his contact info.
She is making excuses.
She is protecting him.

That is ridiculous....

Yes, we're kind of suspicious of that, too.

For what it's worth, RNR, in the early days after I found out about my wife's emotional affair online, she dragged her feet on several needed steps for recovery, like blocking facebook. But it wasn't long until she jumped in with both feet and asked me to forgive her for wavering.

Treat this as a problem to be solved together, rather than an obstacle that makes sending the letter impossible. Solve the problem.

Her feelings are telling her to protect him.
That is what she is doing.
She's GOING to drag her feet on this.
Don't let her.

RNR, I wanted to comment on something,

Your wife indicated that you were angry with her yesterday. I don't want to minimize the importance of her sending this no contact letter or being totally transparent to you, but I do want to make you aware that Dr. Harley says that angry outbursts will make it impossible for you to recover your marriage.

The new marriage you two are building needs to be fulfilling and rewarding for both of you. Demands, disrespect, or angry outbursts will make that impossible. So fighting (demands, disrespect, and angry outbursts) need to be avoided at all costs. If you need any help learning to talk about things without these three "tools," let us know. I had to do a lot of anger management work myself. The basic rule is not to say or do ANYTHING when you are frustrated or upset, because when you are angry, you are temporarily insane, and whatever you are thinking of doing will make your situation worse.

No matter what she does, even if she's breaking the marriage builders rules at the moment, do not respond with anything that she might perceive as demanding, disrespectful, or angry. The one exception I think Dr. Harley would make to that is to demand an end to an ongoing affair. Even then he would recommend you not do it while angry, because again, that means temporary insanity.

Again, this in no way minimizes the importance of sending the no contact letter and maintaining transparency in your marriage. We will keep on her about that, but when you talk to her about it it needs to be in a factual and non-emotional manner.

Well, I think my marriage is over. We had an argument tonight and she said she wanted to leave because she thought I wanted her out, which I didn't. She said that nothing was good enough for me and my need to have proof that the A was over but she never did give me much. She said I took everything from her and that I had some big plan to destroy her? She was referring to the court order I have in place where our daughter is not allowed around this other guy because of all the bad stuff he is into and basically gives me full custody over our daughter while I am home. So tonight, she said she wanted to leave because she thinks thats what I want. I straight out told her numerous times "If you want to go than thats your choice, so go, get out" she refused to go so I took her and dragged her out the door. This is my place and I have a order stating that is my place and if I don't want you here than you go. So, she's gone. I never wanted her out, I love her very much but she just didn't want to be here anymore so she had to go and theres nothing I could do to stop that.

You DRUG your wife out the door?
Do not say you didn't want her out if you DRUG her out!

Did you read a single word Markos wrote to you in his last post?

RNR, IF she comes back, no anger. She had an affair, but you can and need to control anger. Some BH's here whenever there ww says something asinine, or start trying to push you away just calmly offer them a cup of coffee or chips.

I know the feeling of betrayal and sometimes not being sure if I want her around or want her gone. But clearer heads prevail and I am glad I kept her near.

IF she comes back, a polygraph may help YOU to know where she is at. But that is a BIG IF.

How dare you lay a single hand on her.
Did your child witness you treating his mother this way?

She should have called the police the minute you put a hand on her.

Unacceptable, sir. This is not just marriage wrecking behavior; it's outside of the bounds of human decency. There are legal procedures if you want to get her out of your house.

Where is she now? On the street?

This doesn't make a lick of sense.

She clearly did not want to go, or she would have left. Clearly she did not want to go, or she would not have resisted and you would not have been forcing her out physically.

"Nothing you could do to stop that"? How about just simply doing nothing?

If your wife threatens to leave, all you have to do is say "That is your choice if you want, but I want to keep our marriage, and I won't talk about ending it." Hundreds of betrayed husbands and wives have done it here before you.

I don't want anyone here who doesn't want to be here. She said she wanted to go but she would not. I asked her to take her things and leave numerous times but she would not, so she was escorted out. I did not want her to go but if she does not want to stay than she needs to get out. No our daughter was not here.

I am extremely confused.

While you are home? I thought you guys were going to do this program, which would mean you are going to be home from now on.

Half measures will avail you nothing. Were you guys going to cut this corner?

This is a lie, and I am going to call you on it every time you post it. I've already refuted it. You probably haven't read it, yet.

Why do you guys have a court order? Is this just a legal agreement? Or did one of you guys previously file or something?

Unfortunately, men and women with anger problems do not make good parents, either, so I guess this is a wash.

You had an angry outburst and you abused your wife.
She should've called the cops. You should be spending the night in jail right now.

So she said she wants to go, but wouldn't. Either she was trying to provoke you or she was having an inner struggle. You had an opportunity to help her inner struggle shift to you. What you did was make it shift away from you.

I'm not questioning your right to be upset, but you need to understand that you handled the situation poorly.

I did call the cops and was told I was within my rights to remove anyone I please. No, I don't have anger issues but if you are told to leave than its time to go, if that person does not leave than they will be escorted out. Maybe, I should have left and told her not to be here when I returned? As for the court stuff, yes I already filed. Maybe, I should have put my wife on the lease so that I no longer have the right to remove her if asked to leave, could have been a sign of trust/trying on my part.

There is nothing we can do for you here, and I wish you well.

So because I remove someone from my home I have anger issues? Let me ask you, what would the cops have done with someone who would not leave when told to go? Do they have anger issues also?

We can't help you, RNR.

she said she wanted to go but wasn't leaving. wouldn't leave.
When your wife is crying and says nothing is wrong do you believe her? Good chance you just pushed her to POSOM.

Ok, well thanks for your time.

Your missing the point its not you told her to leave its the way you did it. You did it out of anger of her betrayal plain and simple. You have anger issuers and need help and your wife isn't safe around you not is your marriage. She didn't want to leave and you forced her to what part of the program is that? You have a lot to learn my friend

The biggest winner in that deal is your WIFE. You are lucky you are not in jail tonight.

Well if your wife is just any old "someone" to you, then you really have a warped idea of marriage. You have a right to do that if that someone is threatening your family... I don't see any other reason you would need to drag someone to the door. And newsflash... your wife IS your family. After reading your thread, I see you are not prepared to make ANY changes... so why would you want to recover your marriage? If everything remains the same don't you think that history will repeat itself?

It is tragic that you have lost the support of the veterans here, as you cannot simply acknowledge that you have an anger issue. Again, your actions speak louder than your words... Husbands don't simply drag their wives to the door unless they are angry. You need to apologize to your wife today and take steps to learn how to deal with your emotions particularly anger. I'm not sure that she should come back to live with you unless you get a handle on the anger issue.

Maybe I do have an anger issue. I didn't feel anger at the time? I will try and be more tolerant in the future. I do want to save my marriage but there is only so much I can do. As for the rig, I am still undecided as to how I should proceed with that. If I am going to be single at some point than no way I am giving it up, if not than it is something to consider. If you guys think I have an issue with anger I will look into some form of management.

The rig has to go whether your single or not. Think about your daughter! A job that takes you away from her is devastating to a child. Do you want to be the "never around daddy?" If you are single why keep it? What's more important to you your family or a job? Lot of men fall into this I need to provide but sacrifice quality time trap. Have you read other threads besides your own? Have you read SAA? Lovebusters? Renters, buyers and freeloaders? You need to educate yourself and make radical changes not for your family but for yourself as well.

I'll ask my wife what she wants and I will do that. I love the rig, it's an amazing provider for my family. I have taken a city job which pays 1/6 of what I make in the oil patch. I'll do what my wife wants me to do, I'll put myself aside.

I asked her and she flat out said " No, I don't want you to quit".

Neither of you have learned what Dr. Harley has learned.

You either accept this program is going to make the difference for you and throw yourself into 100% or you'll have to hope you can find something else that makes the difference. I know of no other fully encompassing plan out there.

Business as usual will get you the same results you had before. Independent behavior, anger, disconnection, affairs, etc.

She said no because its what I love to do. Yes, she wants me to quit, she hates being an oil field wife.

She shouldn't be sacrificing. You shouldn't allow her to sacrifice.

#1 priority ... the marriage.
#2 our careers.

She wants you to quit but doesn't want you to resent her for being the reason you quit. Does your employer have office jobs where you live? Could your family move closer to the fields so that you can sleep at home? Can you downgrade your lifestyle so the cut in pay is feasible?

I view this as a hopeless situation.

I think too many of us husbands think that by "providing income" shows we love our wife and family.

Sometimes, it comes down to money or the family....choose one.

Okay, you gotta understand this: if you want to save your marriage, then throwing your wife out of the house will make that job harder.

Where did your wife sleep last night? Is she home?

Here's what you can do, and I've already posted this to you: when you are frustrated or upset, don't say or do anything, because whatever you are thinking of doing or saying will make your problem worse, I promise you.

Look into Dr. Harley's radio show. It is free to listen to, and he discusses anger management every week or so. Before his retirement, Dr. Harley ran a large chain of mental health clinics and did a lot of anger management therapy. And before that, he overcame angry outbursts himself.

Get a recent edition of the book Love Busters and go through the chapters on Selfish Demands, Disrespectful Judgments, and especially Angry Outbursts. Work the exercises with your wife.


An angry outburst usually makes you feel better (and everyone around you feel worse).

I would contact Dr. Harley himself and see if both of you can speak to him on his radio program. He doesn't do active counseling any more other than the marriage builders online program, but he does do the radio show an hour every week day, for free. He would love to have both of you on, and often will continue to email with you to help you afterwards.

He will tell you the things we are telling you: you cannot recover your marriage without eliminating the angry outbursts, and you cannot recover your marriage if you cut corners and try to continue to have nights apart.

If I'm understanding right, these sure sound contradictory. But that's pretty typical in a lot of marriages. Husbands and wives often feel bound to go along with whatever makes their spouse happy, even when it makes them unhappy. But this is a real disaster for marriage.

A really striking example comes up on Dr. Harley's radio show frequently: pornography. Most wives are not enthusiastic about their husbands using pornography, and this is one reason Dr. Harley recommends not to use it. But a small minority of wives will say they are enthusiastic. Dr. Harley still says not to use it in those cases because it is still bad for marriage (and because frequently it turns out the wife is saying she is enthusiastic but doesn't actually feel enthusiastic - she is going along to get along).

Some decisions are just bad for a marriage, even if both husband and wife agree to them enthusiastically: pornography, swinging, hard drug use, unemployment, and nights apart! They are simply a bad idea.

Your wife has felt disconnected from you for your whole marriage, and a primary cause of that is the nights apart. If you want to recover your marriage, you can't dispense with finding a new solution that you and she are both enthusiastic about that does not involve spending nights apart. And again, even if you don't - being away from your daughter is not good for her, particularly after all of this trauma!

Apologize to your wife if you haven't done so yet. Promise her you will never lay another hand on her again. Tell her if you ever DO lose your temper again, YOU will be the one who has to leave home, not her.

Get into anger management, ASAP.

She did come home last night with our daughter and we had a very good talk. I'm done with the rigs and we will follow the plan.

Looks good, RNR.

Please take the anger problem very seriously. I dinked around here for far too longer not taking my anger problem seriously enough.

Get Love Busters, and listen to Dr. Harley's radio show, where he really touches on the subject of angry outbursts a lot. Better yet, talk to him personally!

If there really is some legal reason why you have the right to be in the home and she does not, I would look into getting that removed. You can't build a marriage of equals like that, with her at your mercy.

I got that apartment for me and our daughter. At the time we were not back as husband and wife. I am the lease holder but my wife will be put on the lease now. We will live 50/50 in everything.

RNR, I would start with the book Lovebusters FIRST. Order 2 copies, 1 for her and 1 for you and start doing the lessons right away, especially focusing on the first 5 chapters. She should highlight anything that stands out in a pink highlighter and you should do the same with a yellow. Then exchange the books and read what was important to each other.

There is also a good workbook that goes with it, that has questionnaires, lessons, etc in it. It is Five Steps to Romantic Love.

I'll do it that's a promise.

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

Edited

When you talk about what your wife is thinking like that, when she hasn't told you, you are engaging in a Disrespectful Judgment. I suggest you write this one down and keep a record of every time you notice yourself in a DJ, or everytime your wife tells you, or every time we on the board tell you. One of the most important things you need to do is to eliminate DJs. The goal in keeping a record is to go one full week without DJs. Eventually it will be for life!

How did you bring up the issue of the letter? Did you keep it unemotional? i.e., "Can I have a copy of the letter, and the address?" It only needs to be that simple. If you make it more complicated, you are likely to say something she finds disrespectful, which of course will upset her. Ask her if she feels that the way you brought it up was disrespectful. If so, note that on your record of DJs.

Just ask for the letter and the address, and then send it. There doesn't need to be any more discussion than that. Just do it and move on; no psychoanalyzing of whether she seemed reluctant or not or whatever. Dr. Harley's plan works when it is followed, no matter how she feels about it at first. So just do it, and don't use her attitude as an excuse to not do it!

She is still hurting from your angry outburst yesterday. You punched a big hole in her lovebank.

Have ya'll ordered the Lovebusters book and the Five Steps to Romantic Love workbook yet?

Never, ever, ever, ever assume you know what she�s thinking.

If you do that 99.99999999% of the time you are going to be WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.

In this case you found out you were wrong didn't you?

Trust me BTDT.

Asking probing questions. Seek her perspective. It is the only respectful way to handle situations where things aren�t going as you expected.

�We talked about mailing the NC letter. What do you think?�.

Ripping the letter and saying you want the marriage is sending her mix messages! Translation: I want to work one the marriage (WW) but your making it harder than it already is. Plus, I'm scared of you how do I know you won't blow up again and bully me of you don't get your way.

Here's a recommendation I just made to your wife:

I think you guys could greatly benefit from sitting down together daily to listen to Dr. Harley's radio show:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4200_radio.html

It's going to take a lot of education to make this work, and a lot of motivation. The radio show provides some of both.

Have the two of you mailed the NC letter?

No

I'm confused. Your thread says no, hers says yes. Which is it?

She thought I sent it today but I never because I never saw the letter when she sealed it in the envelope. I am going to go mail it in a few minutes after I look at it.

How are you going to look at it if she sealed it in the envelope? Am I missing something?

I opened it and looked at it. I'm going to just send it in a new envelope. I'm not sure of the address though. I was told by other people that this guy lives in a compleatly different town than the one on this envelope. Both towns are only 10 minutes away from where we live.

From what I understand it shouod be sent certified so he has to sign for it and you KNOW he got it.

I'll do that.

So will it be sent out tomorrow?

Yeah, I'll send it registered mail today.

We sent the letter registered mail. I am a little worried that something may be off with it as my W seemed to become somewhat distressed when she realized he would have to sign for it? I am somewhat worried about some of the thoughts and feelings I have been having over the past few weeks. I find myself wondering if the single life would not be better, if after all that has been done if this is something that should be saved but than I realize how much she means to me and the thoughts go away. I wonder about her true intentions as she gets upset when I tell her that there are things that constantly remind me of what has happened here in this apartment and she either forgets about them or angrily throws them out. I just don't know! It hurts and I feel bad because I trust you guys more than I trust her and I don't even know any of you. Is this normal?

Why does she get upset when I post something here before consulting her about it first? I feel like I can't say or do anything. I can't even sit and read a book without wondering if it will upset her. I'm in a strange limbo that I do not like, I can't do any of the things I enjoy in life because I'm afraid to and I can feel something inside wanting that feeling to end.

Your thoughts and feelings are completely normal. They don't call it a roller coaster for nothing!

Mrs. Cen needs to understand that this is a place for you to get advice and to vent. Kiss was upset about me posting here at first too. When he was still foggy. But he came to realize that it was valuable support for me. She will come around but I have no experience with Wayward wives. They seem to be treated a lot differently then WHs. Hopefully some of the fellas can help you through this.

As far as you reading a book, if you are not us how she would feel about it then ask her. Word it " how would you feel if I read a book for a half an hour" if she is enthusiastic then you POJA'd it, if she is not, then ask her if there is something that she would like you to do or do together.

Follow the basic concepts of poja, porh, meeting UA time and meeting her needs.

I will wait and see if this letter gets delivered. I refuse to believe that they went to motels for days on end, for two months when this guy lives ten minutes away? That will not ever add up to truth in my mind. In fact it makes me sick to think about it. I do love her with all my heart but its her heart that I have to wonder about

Disregard this for now. She has her own best interests in mind, and we have the best interest of...



YOUR MARRIAGE


... in mind.


Not you. Your marriage.

Polygraph test?

No need. She flat out lies to me, I asked her to get rid of a jacket that I never seen until this all happened. She did this morning very angrily. I just had an argument with her about it, I asked her why she would get upset about it. She said she never wore that jacket out with him even though one if the worst memories I have is if her outside in the jacket waiting to be picked up by him. She just flat out lies to me, she thinks I imagine this stuff. I've asked her a number of times to get rid of it over the past few days but she did not until I brought it up this morning. She says she doesn't think of things like this and forgets about them even after I mention them.

After my fww admitted affair she would lie to me about small things. It made no sense. I came close to calling it quits, more from the lying than the affair itself. I am glad I didn't though. She didn't want it to seem as bad as it was, but once she woke up it got better. I had read on this site somewhere that more couples divorce over the lies than over the affair.

That's my biggest problem. She has no idea the things that I know to be fact and when asked about it she will tell me a lie. How can I ever trust anything even if the lies are small and insignificant?

1) Do not make DEMANDS about these things. Let her know they bother you and allow her to act. You want demonstration of care to be a habit. THANK HER when she demonstrates care by discarding trigger objects.

2) DO NOT ARGUE. Don't be baited into explaining your reasoning behind the fact that it bothers you, this will lead to arguing or bargaining. It bothers you, it should go.

3) DO NOT ARGUE. PERIOD. No Angry Outbursts. Period. If you have angry outbursts, she will - rightfully - be advised not to deal with you.

4) NO ANGRY OUTBURSTS.

5) NO ANGRY OUTBURSTS.

6) Don't get hung up on trust or forgiveness.

6a) Trust - nobody should be trusted to not have an affair. Radical Honesty; concentrate on REWARDING honesty (a simple "Thank you for being honest" will do) and DO NOT punish dishonesty. Make being honest both safe and pleasant to form it as a habit.

6b) Forgiveness - is earned through just compensation. Quit dwelling on it, allow just compensation to be met. The more you think about it, the more it will gnaw at you.

7) She doesn't see things the way you do, AND THAT'S OK. Don't get caught up in the loop of Disrespectful Judgements. The only thing either of you need to know is my spouse enjoys this, or my spouse dislikes that. Full stop.

There are no more angry outbursts. I just get up and leave like I did twice today, she got upset with me because I did get up and leave before an argument stared and I didn't say where I was going. She left now to go stay at her folks house?

So you got angry again? THAT is the problem. You have to stop getting angry. Do you have the book Lovebusters yet?

No, I never got angry. I never said a word, I just left.

Not true

I would refrain from posting on your husband's thread and responding to his posts.

If you have something to talk about from your perspective, it would be best to handle it in your own thread and posters can help you approach the situation from your side of the street.

I never got angry, this morning when I mentioned the jacket I just got up and left when I felt an argument was beginning. When I came home I tried talking asking why she was upset. I left again once I felt an argument begining, I asked as I walked out of the room "why do you insist on lying?" Maybe she doesn't remember the jacket like I do, I don't know. I'm finished with arguments, it gets us nowhere. She's gone now, she left to go stay elsewhere? I suppose I will just let my "imagination" figure out where. Nothing I can do but keep pressing on with my own life I guess.

If you feel an argument coming, don't just walk out as that is very frustrating to your spouse. I used to do that and it was a huge lb for my wife. But do say something to the effect of "this conversation is not safe for me where it is going" and change the conversation. Revisit it when things are feeling better.

This is a rather angry and disrespectful rant (towards your wife).

Your statement "Why do you insist on lying" is a Disrespectful Jugement, and easily seen by anyone BUT you as an angry outburst.

You follow?

Truth silences the liar so to speak. When she lies, just speak the truth. If she continues to say the lie then just move on since you aren't going to change her mind on it. eventually she will change that. If you ask her to get rid of jacket and she won't then she is not trying very hard. If she claims it was never worn with him, just tell her it still is a trigger for you. Don't give DJ.

Expect her to lie, that way when she does it won't surprise you and won't make you as angry. Like I said, my wife lied about stupid, small things after coming out and telling me she had an affair and I may not have been involved in her pregnancy. It makes no sense, that you would admit to murder then lie about stealing a candy bar, but that's what happens.

As you recover she WILL come to a point where she will stop lying, you just have to get there. You won't get there this way. You have to be the man she WANTS to be with. If all of your conversations are like this she won't WANT to be with you. If she doesn't want to be with you then what motivation does she have to tell the truth?

If you WANT her in your home then you need to start acting like it.

Why is everyone saying that my anger is doing this? I haven't gotten angry all day. I called the cops because my wife said she would and have me removed. I called to show that that does not scare me and yes they came. Nothing happened I told them that I do not want her to go. In fact the one cop that talked to my wife in private talked to me afterwards and made me feel much better, the lady Cop told me that she really does think that my w is trying very hard, that I should begin to start trusting her again and that she is confident that my wife is telling the truth. I think these cops coming was one of the best things that has happened over the past few days because I feel much better, kind of like having a therapist talk to me really. I feel better but my W is quite upset and does not feel like talking to me, I am just going to watch a movie with my little girl then I'm going to bed to cuddle up to my wife. I have not made any threats, I just followed through on hers.

What set off the cops coming was my W came into the room and demanded that we talk about the A right now and never talk again. I told her that I don't even know what I need to know yet. She did not like that, she said she would like me to leave the apartment for the night, I said that was not going to happen. She said she would call the cops and have me removed so I called them myself. I was not removed, We are both here where we should be.

Like I said I used to walk away from my wife when I thought she was being unreasonable. I would just leave without saying anything. This would make her SO FURIOUS that she would throw things at me. So obviously doing that was not the right thing for me to do.

Ultimately we were not there and are commenting based on the posts you both have made. We may be too free with our assumptions sometimes.

But you can't control her, just yourself. I think that walking away instead of blowing up is better. But walking away isn't good. Redirecting is better.

Anger isn't just an emotion; it's an action. It's a reaction.

You calling the police due to her threat is a posturing manuver - it is an angry reaction.

Even being annoyed can lead one to angry action.



Walking away silently, without telling your spouse what you are doing and where you are going is an angry reaction.


"This conversation no longer feels safe. I am going to go for a short drive and will return in 30 minutes."


One reason your wife may get upset with you walking away, is an established history of her complaints never getting addressed.

She wants to argue because she wants her complaints to be heard.

This is, of course, a foolish and abusive tactic to get one's needs met.

However, you need to be able to address her complaints, as she needs to be able to address yours. If either of you cannot do so without emotional outbursts - angry or otherwise - it will be impossible to properly negotiate in your marriage.


Does that make sense?

No, walking away is the proper response when someone is having an angry outburst.


"This conversation no longer feels safe."

HHH, I agree; I'm saying that it is better to walk away then drag your wife out of the house. But walking away MUST come with you telling her why you are or she is left frustrated and angry.

Your right!

I must sacrifice my self and my own happiness for the good of my own daughter. I must ensure that my daughter is cared for at all costs, so I may be left with one choice. I love my wife dearly but I just don't feel it being returned and my little girl is standing by waiting for us.

Of course the love isn't being returned yet. You are just STARTING.

Are you willing to put in the effort to restore this marriage?

If not, divorce her now.
If so, get to work and allow it TIME to work.

Either way, the AOs MUST STOP.

Of course we always must sacrifice for our children, but us telling you to control AO and work on better conflict resolution is not telling you to sacrifice happiness unless having AO and making your wife angry make you happy.

100% normal. My FWW had a 9mo EA/PA followed by a 9mo FR.

Yes you can R. It will be the most difficuly endeavor of your life. I can say though at 1.5yrs into R, our M (notwithstanding the A) has ever been better.

Expect to have highs, lows and everything in between..sometimes all of the above within a 5 minute period.

MB saved my M.

edit: expect 2-5 years to completly R your M. I can see this is true..being 1.5yrs in. We have a long way to go but have made tremendous progress so far.

UA time is the key.

I too have struggled with AO's throughout my experience.

Extremely difficult to contain the anger under these circumstances. I completely understand. The hurt is just so extraordinarily deep.

You are experiencing new emotions that you have never dealt with before.

One thing that Dr Harley emphasizes that has really helped me is that no one can MAKE us have an AO. It is always a choice�.every single time. Hard? Yes. Very.

What I try to do is when I feel my pulse start to increase, I will do my best to just walk away until the adrenaline goes out of my system and I can think more clearly. Exercise helps too.

Mind over matter my friend. It is a learned skill.

One line of thought you might consider is that what you are creating for your daughter is a Happy, Loving Marriage so you can be there for her and preventing a broken home.

In any successful recovery, you don't just go back to the pre-affair marriage. You marriage *has* to be better. Sometimes, I miss my pre-affair marriage, because it seemed so much simpler then. But, those days are gone. My present marriage is much better, but it is also more work.

You guys are going to need to learn to avoid arguments at all costs, or you are going to destroy your marriage. There won't be anything to save here.

You have got to completely eliminate any thing you do or say that she interprets as demanding, disrespectful, or angry. And she has got to do the same thing.

MelodyLane asked if you have the book Love Busters yet. I didn't see an answer, but maybe I missed it. You guys are not going to survive if you don't get through Dr. Harley's advice in the first few chapters on demands, disrespect, and anger. I would really start looking into professional help at this point: either Dr. Harley's online program, or coaching through Steve Harley or Dr. Chalmers. And in addition to that, probably anger management.

Because we know what you guys need to do in order to be happy, and we want you to be happy.

RNR, that is just textbook AO! An angry outburst makes YOU feel better, at the expense of the people around you (in this case, your wife). You got to vent, and it felt great. That doesn't mean it was a good thing - it makes recovery harder.

Why do you need to show her you aren't scared? What the heck difference does it make????

Is "showing your wife you aren't scared" a step in Dr. Harley's plan for marital recovery? It doesn't look like it to me. Is it a step in Dr. Harley's plan for recovering from an affair when you aren't going to stay married? It sure doesn't look like it to me!! Does "showing your wife you aren't scared" lead to your long term happiness? I doubt it.

Don't call the police unless your wife is violent. Threatening to call the cops is not violent. (And I don't think she should've been threatening to call the cops here, for the record.)

That is the right response. And then you should just quit talking about it. Don't fight about it. If she wants to call the cops, let her.

This doesn't add up for me, RNR. She threatened to call the cops because you wouldn't talk about the affair? That doesn't make sense. Why would she do that?

If you're going to recover you have to make home a place she wants to be. And you need to strive to be the husband she needs. Yeah. It sucks when you're hurting to have to be her soft place to land.

She can't do this for you if you won't do it for her.

Recovery IS hard. I got cheated on once by a boyfriend I adored (i realize this is no comparison to being married with kids). We tried to make it right for a couple months but my pain and resentment only deepened over time. He wanted to make things right but I started feeling sick every time I looked at him.

You can't stay married and go this route just to make a 'family' for your daughter. It won't work and your daughter will suffer. Maybe you think you'll stay married and make your wife's life hell by being unpleasant to be around? A sort of slow, punishing death?

Sometimes divorce is the best outcome. Some of us simply can't ever get past a betrayal of this magnitude.

You don't need to figure it all out today but you do need to get a sense of how you can work more productively with your feelings. For yourself, your wife and your child. What can you do today to help yourself cope with the pain? Something healthy.

That's just it. I don't know what I need to know. I've lost so much over the past few months. There's too much happening inside my head that I can't seem to get any form of linear thought. All this coupled with the lose of my job as well. Going from 150000 to 40000 a year and a job that I love is causing me a great deal of chaos inside as I never did this but I have the greatest sacrifices to make for someone I love but did not care enough about me to not give me the greatest betrayal of my life. I don't even know where to begin most of the time.

Job loss is difficult. Add adultery to the mix and you have a very potent depression/despair combo. Will you get some anti depressants? They help a lot! So does exercise.

Also, things that sooth your body. Go for walks in a beautiful park. Listen to your favorite music. From what I'm picking up on both threads, you're overwhelmed and may even be disassociated from your own behavior. Perhaps you can't even see how you're reacting and the effect it's having?

Please take good care of yourself. Start with simple things. Be a body for a bit and shift out of the mind. I know it's hard. get help with this!!

RNR, I agree that it isn't fair. We get betrayed then sometimes have to give up more than our waywards while dealing with so much pain and do it with a smile on our face. It isn't fair, but God has called us to be Men and to love our wives as Christ loved the church. Christ didn't get angry because people were doing the wrong thing, he sacrificed himself to help them heal and come to God.

RnR. When the cops came to see me after my wife called them on me, it was a HUGE wake up call for me. They even told me that since my wife filed a domestic violence case against me, that if I even so much as slammed a cupboard or door in my home that frightened my wife I would be arrested.

I got myself a GSR2 bio feedback device and practiced controlling that machine to assist with lowering my anxiety. They are tricky to control but once you practice with it a bunch of times it helps you recognize your own inner self and you can feel yourself change states inwardly. Of course we fooled around with it a bit and practiced increasing anxiety with loud noises and such and also thoughts like christmas etc. And sure enough even a negative thought gives you anxiety before you even notice it. The gsr2 picks up on it before you yourself does. Totally facinating.

MNG

Got an answer? Did you read my post?

I still haven't seen an answer to this. This is crucial; are you reading and acting on the suggestions given?

I am starting to think you guys are going to need professional help. Two very serious fights in just a couple of days. If the two of you cannot each eliminate your demands, disrespect, and anger on your own, this marriage is not going to recover.

Did I see earlier that you were thinking of writing Dr. Harley on his radio show? I would strongly encourage you to do that.

I am really worried that with all of the fighting, you guys are not going to be able to pull this off without professional help. Unless the demands, disrespect, and angry outbursts can completely be eliminated, there is no hope. It sounds like every time somebody makes a demand, there is an escalating response. Your wife already has bruises on her. Somebody is going to wind up in the hospital or in jail.

Why are you not answering my questions? Were you having an angry outburst - is that why she threatened to call the cops? It doesn't make any sense that she would call the cops because you had told her you weren't ready to talk about the affair. How did you tell her?

I don't even know where to begin most of the time.

That's not true. You have been counseled virtually every step of the way....and you have almost assiduously avoided following the plan, and personal guidance, available to you on this thread.

How about LISTENING TO and HEEDING the folks here, instead of giving them the "Oh, yeah, sure..." and then dashing off to perform some increasingly unproductive action?

Time to take off the diapers, dude, and pull on your big-boy britches. Here's some reality that you had better try swallowing. If you can't get it down, at least you'll know it sooner than later.

- WWs lie. Got it? They lied before, and until they see it in their own selfish interest (occasionally by compassion for BH, but more likely FEAR of making things worse) they will continue to lie.

- LIFE AIN'T FAIR! It wasn't fair before D-day (although you might have known it so clearly), it sure as HELL hasn't been fair since, and won't likely improve for some time.

- "Fresh" WWs are prone to (and your particular WW seems to be the poster child) interpreting and presenting all their sins and failures in terms of reactions to (real, or perceived) failures of their BHs. Why? Well, certainly, as the realization dawns that she behaved like a common street tart (worse, actually, unless she actually did charge for her sessions!), the WW must construct an alternative, more digestible, reality, as in "He made me do it!"

- Right now, anything you "dream up" to address your situation will probably do more harm than good. YOU know NOTHING about recovery; the experts posting to you are accorded that title on the basis (for the most part) of having gotten through your crisis successfully.

All of which leads us to this: You have performed the almost impossible. Your abusive, bullying stupidity (Seriously, a preemptive call to the police, with her bruises from last week still fresh?) have swung much of the empathy from folks on this site, who otherwise wouldn't piss on a WS if they were on fire, over to HER!

I see you soon wearing the matching cufflinks the LEPs fitted me with on D-night, dude. If you think you face an uphill battle to recover any shard of your self-respect NOW, try doing it while defending yourself from a DV complaint.

Ask CP. Ask SMM. Or simply take NG's word for it: It will destroy any hope of saving your family if WW gets the opportunity to stick it to you legally. Then the conversation in your family/town will no longer be "Did you hear WW screwed around on RNR?", but, "It's a wonder she stayed with that beast as long as she did!"

How long do you want to live in anger? How much do you think she should pay? How long do you want to stay in this place before you two work together to get the answers you need to close the door on this? Get your questions together, calmly propose a time (as soon as possible) for this final discussion about the affair and get it done. If you need a polygraph, get that set up quickly.

There are no conditions a spouse has to meet for one to eliminate Lovebusters. Eliminating Lovebusters isn't a sacrifice, isn't being a doormat, isn't sucking it all up, isn't conditioned on whether you think the marriage will work out, and certainly isn't based upon whether the other spouse is meeting your needs. Just like EP's, transparency, and just compensation needs to be in place without knowing if it will work out.

If you continue to approach this through punishment, you will lose more than you have already, if you protect your wife from your Lovebusters you will gain more than you ever dreamed. That is the gift of following Marriage Builders principles.

I'm here guys, just busy with work and when not working I just want to be with my family. We are following your plans and we are seeing a great improvement. Already my marriage has been far more passionate and loving than ever, other than the few blowouts we have had. As far as I go, I am still very confused and have a hard time trying to think of what I need to know or even want to know. Sometimes I do feel like running but than those thoughts just go away. I know I want to be with my wife but sometimes I get a feeling that single is better that I should just hop on my bike and hit the road. I know I won't do that but at times the feeling is powerful. I don't know what to do about my trust? Basically I'm terrified that I am goin to make the wrong decision.

The angry outbursts will quickly destroy any love bank balances, so you both need to commit to never again having one. Ever. Period. All other love busters must also be eliminated, or the love bank deposits made in each other's accounts will be in vain.


What you NEED to know: all of the conditions that led to the affair, so that each and every one of those conditions can be eliminated.

What you WANT to know: anything else that will shed light on this tragedy.

Ask her to write out a timeline of events. After you have the facts, you must never bring it up again. This is not to let the WW "off the hook;" rather, it's because talking about the ugly past brings that ugly past into the present. You want your present and future to be wonderful. It's hard to enjoy a wonderful present when the past is constantly brought up.


The roller coaster. This will most likely be how you feel for a couple of years. When your marriage is recovered, you will no longer feel this way.


Dr. Harley finds that a marriage that is recovered has regained trust. It's not a blind trust, which is very silly to have in a marriage anyway, as we have discovered. Rather, it's trust that our spouse will have our best interests in mind.

Yes, the recovery period can, indeed, be terrifying. We find it hard to make ourselves vulnerable to the one who inflicted such great pain on us; however, it's this vulnerability that makes us open to love bank deposits.

You do not need to have trust to begin recovery. It's unrealistic to have that expectation. Once your wife is transparent and you can check up on her when you have the need/desire, she can begin to EARN your trust. Once you and she commit to and FOLLOW the POJA and PORH, your marriage can begin to recover.

I do commit to no more AO's and will get help as will she. We will never hide feelings from one another again. I told her that sometimes I feel like running and ending the pain and she says that makes her want to put up a wall around herself, I told her that's when I heed her most and I don't think that a wall is a good idea. I'll let her tell you what got us here and yes it was mostly my doing if what she is telling me is true. I was closed and distant to her for many years but that's no longer the case.

I will post the questions that I need answers to here once I figure it out

Dr Harley has often said that in his experience, Job Loss is typically the #1 reason for depression in men. While the M is #1 with the W.


This coupled with the betrayal is going to send anyone for a spin. Massive spin. Try not to be too hard on yourself. What you are going through is the most difficult experience anyone can have.

You are on the rollercoaster ride of a lifetime. If you follow MB you can (over time) level out your life.

If I can do it, so can you. Just don't make any rash decisions in the heat of the moment! Hang in there..1 step at a time. 1 day at a time.

I never really lost the job, I gave it up but it's only a phone call away. There are a few rigs working right around the city which I may be able to get on but I won't be the driller, however I will still be doing what I love and be home at night and the money is still much better than what I get driving a rebar truck in the city. I hope my wife understands that I feel comfortable with you guys and I feel comfortable receiving help from you. I like the fact that you call me out on my faults and I take responsibility for my part in all this even if the final result is ending it. I am sure out marriage can be saved and I am here to do just that. I am in a date of confusion where I can't tell truth from fiction, in fact I believe most everything to be fiction. I am going to post my questions here and I would like my wife to answer here so that I can get help in understanding.

I will tell you everything from my side and exactly what I went through when I get the time.

Dr. Harley's position is that you should not feel trust at this point. Simply continue to verify no contact on your wife's part. If she gets upset at you for checking on her, that's a bad sign. If she's open and transparent, and your checking never reveals a problem, you will eventually feel trust, because trust is a feeling she creates in you by acting trustworthy, for long enough to create the feeling.

Dr. Harley says keep checking until your checking is boring.

Dr. Harley says focus on the circumstances of how the affair happened that can be used to prevent another affair.

Examples:
How was it? How and where did they meet? How did they communicate?

She has gotten angry at me wanting to see her phone in the past few days. She said "what are you the phone police?" Or just flat out says "why" when I ask.

WHY??? really? She can't be serious. Not a good sign at all.


Please list the EP's you have in place and your conditions of her for your participation in R.

She's done it a couple times mostly when arguing starts. For the most part she just leaves it around for me but when she gets upset she always starts texting and won't let me see.

I have a bad typo up there. I didn't mean "HOW was it?" I meant "WHO was it?"

Looks like it's too late to edit, but I wanted to get this correction in there!

STOP ARGUING. You're not going to get anything you want if you are arguing. Lovebusters discourage honesty. STOP IT.


Who is she texting?

Do you have spyware on her phone?

RNR-

My man, you are being WAY too soft here in your approach with your WW.

I am concerned that you are not following MB's in the early stages of discovery and have not sett the bar high enough to consider starting R.


You have to know that if you don't start this off on the right foot, you may end up like me in a FR. Trust me, that isn't what you want to do.


Dr Harley's program can help you formulate a solid plan which will give you action steps to follow even when you feel like throwing in the towel on the M.

I'm nervous for you in the sense that if you don't create and implement the MB rules TODAY, your potential R will take a massive blow in the near future.

I suggest you review her list of EP�s and expand on them in a way that makes you feel safe enough to ever really start R.--These are NOT negotiable. She either agrees or she is OUT.

You both must commit to follow POJA, RH and UA to get things rolling. If she isn�t willing to do these things ENTHUSIASTICALLY and actually do them, your R will most likely fail.

DO NOT believe a single word right now that comes out of her mouth. Trust me. Verify EVERY SINGLE thing she does.

Create rules you both can follow. Make promises to each other to identify, focus and meet each other�s EN�s. Commit to stop all LB�s. Become the mates that BOTH of you always wanted.

And do not take �her word� for anything.

This is why lovebusters and your AO's need to be eliminated she now has a reason in her foggy mind to deny you access to her phone and other EPs you put in place. Your AOs aren't an excuse for her to break EPs, list them here and let the vets review them.

HUGE RED FLAG!!

RNR, we've posted to your wife about the phone, and she's agreed to start letting you see it. If this doesn't change, be sure to post about it here.

Also, as others mentioned DON'T ARGUE anymore! Arguing needs to be avoided at all cost. An argument is like a nuclear war. You will do more damage than you can imagine. It is better to shut up and say nothing than to argue. If she does something that makes you want to argue, POST HERE ABOUT IT, and we'll try to help you get the message across without a fight.

Your wife says " my phone was switched under his plan, so that at any time he has access to any and all incoming/outgoing texts and phone calls."

Is this true?
Did you ever put spyware on her phone?

RNR, some things to keep in mind
1. if she deletes a text the only way to know is to see her text history under your phone carriers website, or to use a program that will pull up deleted texts (decipher media is what I use)
2. My wife carried on much of her affair conversation with an email. They would log in and send the message to that same email address, then the other would login, read it, and respond. etc. Doing it under incognito mode in the browser. The only way to catch that is with a keylogger on phone and computer.

Trust is EARNED...RNR...it is not a given. To be trusted (in 2-5 years) she is gong to have to act trust worthy.


You shouldn't trust her right now. No way! Do not beat yourself up over this at all.

Do you have all of your questions answered about her affair?

I have been texting with my wife a little today as I am having a bad day. I noticed that she said FB was blocked on her phone? I contacted out carrier about this a few weeks ago when it was first brought up about blocking it. They said it was impossible to block it from the iPhone. It's part of the software and cannot be blocked. My wife said that she had it pass locked and her father was the one who set it up? I cannot find a way to pass lock it on my iPhone.

RNR, as to facebook I would recommend you sign into her facebook and change the password to something only you know. I think there is software you can download that will block it. I would ask her to show you that she can't access it.

Only you know what you need when you are having a bad day. I would have them and fww would be distant. I needed her to be near and comfort me. I had to tell her this. Communicate with her what your needs are.

Your wife was told to get a dumb phone.
I think her iPhone needs to go.

Your wife says " my phone was switched under his plan, so that at any time he has access to any and all incoming/outgoing texts and phone calls."

Is this true?

Not sure

Your wife was told to get a dumb phone.
I think her iPhone needs to go.

Fully agree. That web-flexibility is a breach in your (her) EPs that cannot be countenanced.

RNR, you need to be sure!
And you need to be the one to make sure that you know for sure -- don't rely on her to block facebook, show you texts, etc.
Get her a dumb phone. You make sure you have access to everything on it.

Take all the necessary steps to watch her like a hawk.

You know, my son doesn't have a phone at all, but he uses his ipod to connect to the Internet and send Facebook and Twitter messages, and emails. You can also do all those things on a Kindle. You need to block all technology that can connect to the Internet.

As far as finances go, yes they are becoming an added stressor for me.

Learn to budget and not buy things you don't need. The total money make over by Dave Ramsey is good. Recovery is number one, but it wouldn't hurt to get his DVD's and watch them together.

Have a heart, man. His wife just had an affair and he took a 75% paycut he didn't want to take to stay with her and try to salvage his marriage! The problem is not a lack of budgeting or overspending.

I am sure you didn't mean your post to be hurtful, but if I were RNR, this line would've really hurt me.

I'm sure he and his wife will be more than capable of figuring out finances and finding good financial resources that suit them.

RNR, have you considered having your wife take a polygraph? It might be good to confirm if No Contact is really happening.

Markos, I am suggesting that he start that now (if they have not been in the past). Not wait a few months living at a huge pay cut then start. So are we only willing to give tough love when talking about affairs and not when dealing with finances?

He took a huge leap of faith and took a huge paycut and that takes balls. I guarantee you that added stress will make recovery more difficult not less. And I guarantee you if there was a lack of budgeting and overspending, with a 75% paycut that will be a huge problem.

RNR if that hurt your feelings, I am sorry. But it is the truth. And with you being a driller, I would be extremely surprised if it hurt your feelings.

Of course I don't think people should receive "tough love" about their finances. Who wants to be lectured about their financial mistakes? Especially in the middle of great tragedy. And especially with completely misplaced comments like "learn to budget" and "don't buy what you don't need." For all you know they are fantastic budgeters and incredibly frugal.

Exactly.
Finances can wait, klove. There's a MARRIAGE DYING HERE.

RNR, what do you think of the polygraph?

I am not lecturing about past finances. I am suggesting they not make financial mistakes now or in the future. This can be tied in with their recovery. it isn't an either/or scenario. They need practice with POJA. Finances is a good way to do it. I might point out that I am a BH myself so I full well know exactly what he is going through. I know the fight he is in, and I know how much harder it will be if their gigantic pay cut is not offset with good financial control. I am simply trying to make them aware that they should stay on top of it.

You can counsel they forget about money right now despite losing more than half of their income, I won't.

They can't do this, yet. They haven't even STARTED eliminating their lovebusters. Negotiation requires that lovebusters be eliminated FIRST.

Her transparency is also in question. POJA will not work if she is using her phone to contact OM somehow ... First things first, klove.

RNR, what do you think about the polygraph idea? You need to know if your wife is being completely transparent with you ...

Yeasterday was one of the worst days since this all began, I was not feeling good at all. When I got home I just wanted to be with my wife and she shut me out compleatly. She would not even give me a hug when I walked through the door. I'm not feeling well at all right now, she doesn't want to be around me. I just tried to talk to her before i go to work, she just said she doesnt want to talk to me. So now i have to go through another day of work with all this wondering on my mind. I will look into a polygraph but I don't know where they would offer that sort of thing around here. I am really getting a bad feeling, she would rather play games on her phone than be with me, it feels like when I first came home from the rig right before I found out about the A. She is doing the same things, pushing me aside and playing with her phone/iPad at the time.

Ok, so she's in withdrawal. While you work on making sure that there's no contact, you can also work on not committing Lovebusters. A recently WW wife can be in withdrawal (that is, her love bank is closed to you) because she's still in contact and/or because of her husband's Lovebusters or perhaps she just recently cut off the affair. Do all you can to remove the first two reasons.

Today's your day to be cool. Don't come home angry or demanding or disrespectful today. Work on thinking about how to remove all avenues for contact. Like I said, if you require a polygraph, get it set up as soon as possible.

Dr. Harley says that when the spouse comes out of withdrawal, they may come out with their dukes up, although he doesn't suggest that. Once you verify that the affair is truly over, your most difficult job will be waiting for you: don't answer Lovebusters of hers with ones of your own.

Both things have to be taken care of: no contact, no Lovebusters.

For polygraph you can ca the local police department and ask them about it. Also, what games does she play on her phone and iPad? Will she be willing to put a my logger on the iPad? I know some games like words with friends have instant chat and she could be using that to chat with POSOM. A key logger would let you know that. Also, what was your plan for dealing with your angry outbursts? If she is indeed in contact with POSOM what will you do? AO would be a bad idea. Any word on the NC letter? Did you order the books? Email the radio show? On yesterday's show Dr. Harley recommend that the BS and WS should take a 1-2 week vacation without children and focus on UA time and avoiding lovebusters. Can you do this? She ever ask you how you felt about her blocking the Facebook app? Since you both have smartphones you should download the radio show app its free. Listen together before you go to bed good advice there and it's free. It's called Marriage Builders Radio.

Thanks, I will download the app. As for FB, no it is not blocked, it's still access able through the safari browser. It's impossible to block on a iPhone.

RNR, in working the program, you guys are going to be scheduling time to be with each other and meet each other's emotional needs.

But first, have all the details about the affair been revealed? Did you get stuck trying to decide what questions to ask?

I still don't have any idea what I nee to know. My wife is not talkin to me. She said she has her own demons to deal with first. I'm left alone now.

RNR, this is really weird.

One possibility is that she has had some form of contact with the OM. Or possibly viewed some reminder of him. This would likely cause her to withdraw from you like this.

Another possibility is that you did or said something that she found demanding, disrespectful, or angry.

Maybe if she posts again here it will shed more light.

Meanwhile, snoop like a bloodhound for any signs of renewed contact with the affair partner.

You need to know exactly who the OM is, full name, etc.

You need to know how the affair started.

You need to know how and where the affairees met and made contact during the affair.

You need to know if there's ever been anyone else. If so, you need to know the same details for them.

I already know most of this stuff.

You may be done or mostly done, then. What else do you think you might want to know?

She didn't give you her phone when you got home from work?

What about asking her to have a dumb phone?

Also here. Polygraph Testing

My W just made a massive mistake. I told her I wanted to begin to not talk about the A. I told her I will now deal with it and move on. She said she was going to send me a timeline, I said I did not want it. She insisted and I kept telling her no, I'm not ready and I don't want it. She sent it anyway, there are things here that I did not want to see, I was not ready to see but she totally went against my wishes and forced it upon me. I feel sick, I'm not sure how this is going to end up for me now. I did not want this forced upon me and she did not care at all. I actually pleaded that I not get it but it came anyway. I don't feel good at all.

I did not need not want this force feed to me.

You need to first get the full truth of the affair BEFORE you stop talking about it. If you don't have the basic facts, you tend to wonder. NOW that you know everything, you can move to the next step.

"The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy. ". http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2311122#Post2311122

No, I said I was not ready and did not want it. She decided for me that I was getting it now.

WW did the right thing but went about it in a wrong way. You should seize this opportunity. It seems she is eager to work the program. Your approach seems to be sweep it under the rug. You need to know this information so you can set up extraordinary precautions (EPs) to prevent contact and future affairs.

Are you reading Dr. Harley's information and getting familiarized with the program? The more you know of the affair the more effective your EPs will be to prevent contact and possible an another affair. People have affairs because their needs aren't met and they have the opportunity to have a SSL (second secret life) Thats is the purpose of transparency. Did you ask her about the FB access and dumbing down her phone? You still haven't asnwered my question. Have your emailed the radio show? Are you and your WW enthusiastic about being callers? What steps have you taken to get your anger under control? Time away just you and your wife?

I would really encourage you to talk such plans over on this board first before telling her things like that. I don't want you to make a misstep that might hinder recovery.

Also, you guys don't want to have a fight! Fights have got to be avoided at all costs, even if somebody makes a mistake!!! Seriously, put away the nuclear weapons (demands, disrespect, and angry outbursts).

You need to start answering questions, RNR.

Fortunately you don't have to read it, and she can't make you read it. Hold off on reading it for a bit and talk to us first; let's talk about whether you got all the information Dr. Harley listed that you need to get. We don't want you to come back in three months when things are starting to get good and rip the wound back open because there's something that was forgotten.

If you already read it, please don't blame her for the fact that you read it. She probably should've checked here before sending it since you were saying not to (we've been telling her to do this, though! she's just trying to follow the instructions we're giving her!), but that still doesn't make you read it. Hold off on that and let's work through this together.

I will bet anything that the reason mrs_cen was so withdrawn last night was that she had been working on this timeline. It was probably very unpleasant for her.

But honesty in marriage is an absolutely crucial step for recovery. She is doing just what Dr. Harley would say you guys need to do. I would definitely suggest not fighting with her about it.

She sent it text message. I was texting when it came, of course I saw it. I did not want to, this must be one of those EP that I was supposedly given? If cutting corners is ok than I'm going to do that my self. I will not lose both the rig and my marriage and my resume is ready to go.

Just a thought. I keep a journal and in it I put how I would handle such stressful situations with tact and respect. You need to understand that you can't control her only your reactions to her actions. She sent it via email? Then don't open it. When she brings this up tell her this "I don't feel safe right now discussing this. Please lets revisit it when I am not so emotional." You are placing blame for YOUR ACTIONS on her. Thats what causes your anger IMO. I was the same way.

I don't know if you read any other threads on here but I am in the thick of it as well, my friend. My WW does some $!@$ stuff yet I keep my cool and guess what! She does it and calls or emails me later saying she was sorry and she shouldn't of said the things she said. I truly believe MB program and Dr. Martin Luther King's teachings go hand in hand. Gandhi's as well.

WWs need to make the BH the bad guy. When you stop the lovebusters and the AOs they have NO LEGS TO STAND ON. It's a war of attrition (spelling?) You have to be kind, courteos and caring in the face of insanity and keep your cool like James Bond. Eventually, you will make lovebank deposists. Also, if your wife is being honest with you don't punish her for it! She seems to be a protective liar. Tell her thanks for being honest and let her know your are upset with her actions but together you can work through it. Old saying its not what you say but how you say it.

You can convey disappointment and being upset without AOs, disrespect and demands. Its all in the words, the sad thing is that like my marriage these things were habitual and hard to break. Do you love your wife? Use that love as a spring board to motivate you throughtout recovery. If you mess up and I am sure you will, apologize promptly and let her know what you plan on doing to prevent it from happening again. I believe and vets correct me if I am wrong, JC (just compensation) is a two way street. There are reasons for affairs no excuses as they like to say on the radio show. What reasons lead your wife to fall out of love with you?

Ask her and don't get upset and defensive at her responses, correct them! I'm rooting for you because the reasons for your wife's and my wife's affairs are similar. I worked and worked provided material things but I was closed off to emotionally. Her top need was IC and affection and I neglected them. So yes I know you can do this and I will say a prayer for you at church Sunday.

Thats fine, you can put it aside until you are ready to read it. But you do need this information and the sooner you get this step out of the way, the faster you can move to next steps.

Just don't fight about it!

The rule is, if someone makes a mistake, don't break the rules yourself.

You are expressing a desire here to punish her. An angry outburst. You are having one. And whatever you are thinking of doing or saying, it will make the problem worse.

If somebody cuts off your arm, would you cut off the other to make it better?

I think you need to talk to Dr. Harley or one of the professionals at Marriage Builders ASAP. This is not looking good. There is only so much we amateurs can do to keep you guys from fighting. I suggest you put away the nuclear weapons, but you are talking about punishing her (and yourself) for this mistake. You are going to burn everything to the ground.

Get help. Get professional help.

I will not talk to her, I will see how I feel in a few days but she outright did something that is specifically asked her not to. That's what's hurting most.

This morning, I had to take my autistic son to the dentist to have a cavity filled. He, too, did not want it. But he understood that it was necessary, and he fought his oral defensiveness and came through it like a champ. He also understood that everybody, even the dentist, was looking out for his good, even if he experienced pain in the process.

Do you get where I am going with this?

Your WW did you a great favor. She appreciates that it hurt. Don't you understand why it was necessary? It is proof that she has the best interest of your marriage at heart, since she will not allow your protests to stop her from doing what was right.

Your EP's have no meaning to me now. That's where I am at with this.

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

RNR, I get that what she did hurt. But the biggest problem I see is not her mistake, but your reaction to it: an angry outburst.

I would suggest you find something very relaxing to do for an hour or so, or at least as long as you can. Calm down and don't think about this troubling situation. Get the adrenaline out of your bloodstream. Put on some peaceful music. Take a walk; get some mild exercise.

Do not say or do anything else until you have done this. We'll be here to help you when you have calmed down.

You both are out of control with your lovebusting behavior. Just because your spouse does something you don't like....it doesn't give you a license to lovebust them or do whatever you want!

Believe me, I understand. When I got here in 2007, I had been lovebusting and AO'ing my xWH to the point that he was terrified to be around me.

I went into Plan A and learned how to be responsible for my own behavior (read: NO lovebusting behavior despite the fact that he was still working with the OW and being a complete jerk to me!) During this time I learned what it means to control yourself and walk away if you can't. When we interacted I was calm and did not try to punish him, regardless of whatever it was that he was doing. I took a lot of long drives (read: daily) during that time. I read the information on this site and I "got" it.

It is clear that both of you do not and continue to try to control and punish each other constantly.

You have a long tough road ahead of you, we all know....we've all been there. It is completely possible to recover your marriage and transform it into something wonderful, but not if you keep lovebusting each other at every turn.

No, it was a violation of trust. I asked that something not happen and it did anyway. As for the iPhone, no she did not volunteer to give it up, in fact she ignored me all night while she played on it.

I think we all get that.

Because she violated your trusts means you get to be angry and lash out at her? Sorry, bro your treating her like a child. One of the things I from anger management (once again you both need it) was that your primary instincts get you in trouble. Just because my hormones are crazy and I am in heat doesn't mean I should have sex with a random lady. Just because that man spit in my face doesn't mean I get to smash is face in! Two negatives never equal a positive in real life situations! They make it worse.

Your instincts say she hurt me so I will hurt her back via an AO. After you drop the nukes and look at the damage is that gonna change what has happened? NO! There will be a fallout and both sides lose! Don't you get it? Punish her with kindess. Thanks her for the inforamtion and read it when you are ready. Just because a text comes through doesn't mean you have to read it. Have some discipline, sir. Your daughter and wife need you to be the strong one now.

There's a bible proverb that says only a fool gives full vent to his anger. Its true you are being foolish go run a 5k come back and relax then let her know it hurt you but understood what she was doing. Instead of shouting, namecalling and being a monster. You tried that and what did it get you? Police calls and bruises to your wife. Try the MB way and see what happens you might be pleasantly surprised.

I don't really see how he's lashing out at her. I see that he's devastated.

Sending the timeline via text is INSANE.

Why couldn't she take the time to write it out, put it in an envelope and give it to him to read WHEN HE'S READY.

Then she plays on her phone all night and ignores him after delivering the info in a way that he can't avoid seeing when he's not ready?

Sometimes the best outcome is divorce.

One doesn't necessarily preclude the other.
He needs to calm down, zibbles, for his own sake.

I am calm, I do consider this another betrayal but its fine. I will wait and see now if the NC letter actually gets delivered before I make any decisions. Thanks guys.

I would be very interested to know if you guys think she is serious about recovery? If not should we separate for a few weeks/months? I love her but I just can't figure this out.

RNR, if I were you, I would make contact with Dr. Harley and get his professional opinion for some help.

There just seem to be so many fights here. I must mention that my wife and I were a LOT like this, and it took a lot of changes for us to make things work.

My gut feeling is that she is serious about recovery, but she may not remain so if the fighting keeps up. Recovery from an affair is a delicate, narrow path, and part of it has to be fixing what was wrong with the marriage before, making a great marriage better than before. That has got to mean the elimination of the fighting, the punishing, the demands, the anger, the disrespect. If you met my wife and I today, and then saw us three years ago, you would not believe we are the same people, we have changed that much.

Have you any idea why she hasn't posted to us today? Are you at home or at work? Is she still nursing her phone?

I just got home from work. She is not here yet. I did send her a text a little while ago but she said she didn't want to talk to me. She did say earlier that she does not like me talking about her here as she thinks it makes her look bad. She said I can talk to you about what I feel but not her which I don't know how to do as she is the cause if them.

Man, I am feeling it for you tonight. I know exactly where you are at. total flashbacks to 2 years ago...


honestly, I don't think she is serious. As suggested, please reach out to Dr Harley. He can guide you.

***EDIT***

No, I really don't. Dr Harley has addressed situations somewhat similar to yours today and yesterday on the radio program.

Don't know if you listen daily but might help you. I have the app on my phone.

Just try not to jump to any conclusions right now one way or another..the direction she is going, it won't be long until you are totally out of love with her..

This is my feeling, too.
I honestly think that you are going to play a major part in whether she is serious or not.
If you keep lovebusting her, she won't be.
If you Plan A her, then very likely she will be.

Are you serious about recovery yourself?

Start laying out EP's, accept the just compensation, commit no Lovebusters, including the judgement that she isn't serious. If you really want to know the answer to that, then follow your part of the MB plan for a couple of months and observe her reaction.

Have you read "Surviving an Affair?" Have you read the articles and Q&A's on this site?

Have you gotten Lovebusters and the workbook yet?

I would be very interested to know if you guys think she is serious about recovery?

I do not. I sense a chronic conflict-avoider whose only consistent demonstrated actions have been to attempt to prod you into some irreversible breach.

Well.....you asked.

My W just left, she's gone.

Dude, i am so sorry for this turn of events. Is she Still seeing posom? Or is it something else?

Good. Your AOs were too dangerous for her to stay.

This is the worse possible scenario. Dang it. A's sucks. Hate this for you. I know how tore up inside you are

However, there is still hope. If at some point she actually becomes serious, you will know. All of your maritatl problems can be solved and you can work through this A only if BOTH of you are committed.

She appeared to not be serious to R. As painful as this is, maybe this is best for now. The last thing you want to do is to start working on R only to end up in a FR.

Give her a few days. Let both of your heads clear a bit and see what happens.

This was not your fault. Just know this is all on her. She is going to have to live with these realities her entire life knowing she has done the most horrible thing anyone could do to someone they love.

My W just left, she's gone.

Well, by all indications, that was your preferred resolution, dude. On 10 and 12 June you were clearly advised to change the way you were playing your hand, and thereafter you studiously avoided following the advice.

It is highly likely you will be "visited" by some LEPs. Smile nicely for the camera.

Oh, it is most certainly his fault.
He abused her. Not only verbally, but physically.
Own up to that, RNR.

What was his fault her A? (I don't think you were implying that)

He most certainly must own up to that bad behavior but I don't think that is why she left and their attempt to start R has failed so far. Now, he certainly didn't help matters by being angry.

However, she wasn't serious about R her M with him regardless of the AO's (for a variety of reasons I am sure). No way I am justifying AO�s but I completely understand how INCREDIBLY difficult it is to contain emotions in his current state of mind.

My sentiments exactly.

I don't believe for a moment that we have all the information here about the abuse that's been going on the last few days.

Recovery simply isn't an option until the angry outbursts are eliminated.

RNR - Do you think your anger drove her away?

So far he seems to think he doesn't even have to try, so it's not safe for her to live with him. I think she made the right choice; I hope her plan is to separate until he gets help and eliminates his angry outbursts. That is exactly what Dr. Harley advises in cases like this.

I was also an angry man with a WW. My wife asked me to leave the house last year because of my angry outbursts. I'm glad she did! 10 months AO free, and we are happier than ever. Dr. Harley said on the private forum that he thought the separation my wife devised was a great plan.

Anyway, he's not serious at all about eliminating angry outbursts. I could barely get answers out of him on the subject. For example, I still don't have an answer from him as to why he "phoned the police to show his wife he was not scared of them." That was ridiculous juvenile threatening behavior, although at least a step up from the day when he assaulted her and dragged her out of their house, leaving enough bruises that the police asked if she wanted to file charges.

I've got what I think is a better question: RNR, are you willing to be separated from your wife until you eliminate angry outbursts? Are you willing to get anger management therapy to learn to eliminate them? Have you contacted Dr. Harley?

On my Dday, describing my Anger would be like calling the Pacific Ocean a pond. I completely flew off the handle. (NEVER physical though)

The months following I had many AO's and had to learn to control my anger. I still struggle with it from time to time but use relaxation techniques to calm myself down.

However, we were able to work through these times and find ways to resolve our issues calmly.

RNR�s wife (in my eyes) was not showing the right attitude to start R.

Just saying...

You are right, that is really the question. Why did she leave?


It might be easy to assume she left because of his AO's.


It could also be that the A is still active or she just doesn't want to R at this point. Maybe she sees no hope of ever recovering their M.


RNR??

Dr. Harley advises a wife to separate from her husband if he is having AOs and won't get help for them. He especially advises her to separate from him if she is WW and he is physically violent, because when a violent husband catches his wife with an affair the risks are too high for them to try to recover while living together. RNR has been physically violent.

She left because WE told her to leave if he didn't get help for his AOs.

Dr. Harley would say that mrs.cen did the right thing leaving. She couldn't start recovery with him because of his AOs. He is not safe.

RNR wasn't serious either. Time and time again he was told to seek help for his AOs and he ignored every single bit of advice. He was in "she hurt me so I'm going to punish her" mindframe. He was also told repeatedly to quit the rig job. His excuse if she isn't serious then I'm not going to throw away the job. Even though the job kept him from his daughter for weeks on in.

RNR you need to realize your marriage is dead you cannot go back to the way of was. Because your wife's affair will just repeat. It's insane to do the same thing over and over again expecting a different outcome. Dodging tough questions, calling the police on your wife, angry outbursts, pointing fingers isn't the MB way. That's RNR's way and it doesn't work. So what she text you a timeline that no excuse to have and angry outburst. No one saying not to be mad but the cussing name calling and physical abuse is downright dangerous. I really hope you get help for your anger and commit to MB. But honestly this guy isn't coming back.

Do doubt. No one here will argue the reality that she should separate if he is violent.

Only they know the nature of the AO's.

Only she knows why she really left. Personally, I am not buying the fact that she left because of the AO's.

I could be 100% wrong.

RNR??

What about DD? Did she runaway with her too? I think she left for the affair and his AOs. Now she can demonize him because he actually did the abuse and she will get sympathy from everyone cause he played his role.

TranquilDark I so agree with this post.. I mean look at it from her eyes. Forget the affair for a minute, but if all I had to look forward to was an angry man who was gone for lots of time on the rig... I mean why even try... and then if I am in the fog I'm sure the other man looks better. ANYONE would look better. To really truly be married you have to WANT to spend lots of time together... Sorry, but no he wasn't serious either and I, too, doubt he will be back.

I'm guessing that dd will have to be with the wife if RNR is gone to the rig so much. The daughter couldn't be with him.

You wanted her to leave and she left. I don't see what the problem is.

You're right; she should've called the police when he assaulted her.

Dr. Harley's advice would be for her to separate until he can control his anger, and take extraordinary precautions to avoid an affair.

Wouldn't you agree?

Absolutely agree.

The question remains, what was the extent of the AO's (ONLY they know) AND what was REALLY the reason she left?

No one would want to enter R with someone who is Angry. I get that.


I'm just not convinced that is why she left.

It was physical. He left bruises. That's more than enough reason to leave.

The cops know. They asked her if she wanted to file charges because of the bruises they saw. If you read this whole thread, he assaulted her and threw her out of the house and was quite proud of it.

This is why I said he got what he wanted! I don't see what the problem is: he beat her up to get her out of the house. Now he's got what he wanted. All good, right?


He can easily find out. If there's still an affair, he can use the information on this site to Plan A her if he wants. Part of that would definitely include getting help for his angry outbursts. Or if he wants to not recover his marriage, he can do whatever he pleases, including Plan B her especially if she is in an active affair. Even if they divorce I would still recommend he seek effective anger management. Being insane never really helps anything in life.

RNR, did you ever have angry outbursts before the affair? Were the cops ever called before the last couple weeks? Did you ever injure her, bruise her, etc., before?

If you still want to recover your marriage, I believe we can help you, if you want to stick around.

That is what makes this so sad.

They have abused each other. Maybe to the point of no return.
Two wrongs don't make a right.

Hopefully he understands the seriousness of AO's and the damage they can do.

Hopefully she will understand the seriousness of her A and what she needs to do to regain her honor in life.


In the end, there is still hope that he can eliminate his AO's (including all LB's) to be come the husband she always wanted...hopefully she can wake up and make the changes in her to become an honest person (including all LB's), provide just compensation to become the wife he wants.

20Year is right. Both of these people have serious relationship issues that if they don't correct will plague them in future relationships. Even though both have dug deep holes, they have to try fill up the hole one shovel at a time and work towards eliminating the behaviors and actions that have doomed their marriage.

Starting over just sweeps things under the rug. They both have to work through this or they will repeat the mistakes in future relationships.

Giving up is what separates a renter from an owner.

If there was physical abuse, there is a really big problem. No one should tolerate that. And an affair is even worse then physical abuse, as Dr. Harley has said. The question is: do both people have the wherewithal to change.

It was physical. He left bruises.

I think what XXYH is trying to get to is that the bruises are only a figment of a WW's story to us. The willingness of the moronic LEPs to arrest RNR is only a figment of a WW's story to us. Her "forbearance" is only a figment of a WW's story to us.

***EDIT***

But, none of that matters, in the final analysis. Mrs Cen has departed for parts unknown, and RNR, who probably did abuse his wife in some form, has given up on this thread, if he were ever really enlisted in its advice, anyway.

One question has never been posed, much less answered. In the length of their marriage, Mrs Cen never complained of "abuse" being displayed by RNR until he discovered she was screwing around, in other words, until she had replaced him in her existence with POSOM.

***EDIT***

X1000

Bingo. NG comes right to the point.

Never gave up. I was wrong, she never left. She was on the balcony most of the night crying, I mean she was hurting bad. She said she was incredibly sorry and wants to do whatever it takes to be with me, she's terrified that I'm going to end it. I don't know what to do, I don't know how I can forgive and move on, it hurts too much. I comforted her as best as I could, I told her we will be ok and I meant it. I'm just having such a hard time getting past everything.

So she was still at home all night?

If you both follow the MB plans you WILL get through this.

What are you doing about your AOs? How will you make your WW safe?

You need to make up your mind whether you want to recover or not.

If you are serious, get in touch with Dr. Harley. You need professional help.

This is a great sign!

She should be terrified you are going to throw in the towel! D is a natural consequence of A!! What does she think??? Much of your chances to R fall on her shoulders.


You don't have to forgive and move on. R using MB doesn't work that way. It is a process.


Please don't put pressure on yourself to have to 'get past everything'! This is still SO fresh for you. You are going through the worst experience of your LIFE. Be easy on yourself.


It is going to take 2-5 years my man..that is best case scenario using MB's.


The only way you are going to know if you CAN R is to take this one step at a time as you have been advised.

You can do this if both of you are committed to the same goal.

IF she is willing to go NC with this POSOM, commit to a plan of R, then give it 6mo's before you make any decisions.

\

I agree with this. I don't know exactly what her reasons were for leaving, but I do know Dr Harley would have told her to leave. I don't think either of them are very serious, which makes him even more dangerous to her. Her behavior keeps him enraged and as long as he is enraged, he is likely to get violent. AND HE HAS!

This is exactly why physical and verbal abuse have to be addressed FIRST before the affair is addressed. IT is not safe to work on the affair problems until that is resolved.

x1000

RNR, her leaving was the best thing for all involved. Something really bad could have happened here.

At the very least, you both admitted to all the fighting, and it was obvious from reading both of your threads that it was out of control. Even if you complete denied having one single AO since we told you it needed to stop, not much was happening in this recovery except for lotsa lovebusting on both sides.

People really do want to help you so I hope that you will continue to post....

But are you forgetting that he said she never left?

[/quote]

The power to save your mariage is in YOUR hands now. Only YOURS.

Whatever your WW has done or even intends to do now - and it may be to dissolve your M - the only way YOU can save your M right now is to BAN all further AOs on YOUR part.

Please listen. Tell us what you think.

Radio Clip How do you deal with the unfaithful spouse in the recovery process?

No, she shouldn't. I have never heard Dr. Harley nor Steve Harley advise that fear is a proper motivator to making a mutually fulfilling marriage. Also, the burden of creating a mutually fulfilling marriage falls on both sets of shoulders mutually.

The threat of divorce can't be hung out there indefinitely. It's cruel to keep the D card in hand while constantly judging them to see if they are measuring up to your standards. The one holding that card tends to turn a blind eye on what they need to do to help.

On the show last week, Dr. Harley said that when he talks of just compensation, he is not talking about providing needs without reciprocation, at least for no longer than 3 weeks for the wife. I have seen MelodyLane advise this, too, in more than one way that when the affair is dead and just compensation is made, it is time for recovery, not Plan A, not obsequiousness and sacrifice to somehow make up for the affair.

Part of the point of just compensation is to remove fear. Neither one should have fear be the base of what they do, for that is unsustainable.


And why would RNR so quickly jump to the judgemental conclusion that his wife left instead of verifying? He's assuming her motivations, thoughts, and feelings, which is the heart of disrespect.

RNR, what state do you live in?

Here Dr. Harley talks about the health of women in Plan A. It's the second part.

Radio Clip on the Health of Women in Plan A

Hey guys, in not holding the D card out there. Me and my W seem to be dedicated to this, however, I cannot seem to find the trust needed. I find myself sometimes lusting after the things that the single life offers. I don't want that life anymore but I don't want to live with these memories and constantly wondering what she "really" wants. She has not really shown me anything substantial to show that she is serious. She abandons her family for a drug dealing lowlife, left me and her parents to raise our daughter while she went out to play. How do I get by that? I will contact dr.harley. We live in Alberta,Canada

How do you get by that? Through just compensation. If she willing to abide your EP's and both of you are willing go through the recovery process as prescribed by Dr. Harley, then you will be able to restore romantic love in your relationship and the past hurts will become secondary to the great love that you share. It works. But you have to let go of the past and move forward with the plan.

I thought she was pretty serious when she agreed to you quitting your higher paying job for a much lower one so the two of you could be together every night. Financial support is huge for a withdrawn woman. She was willing to take a big hit there for the prospect of rebuilding a romantic relationship with you.

Of course, that can't be done with demands, disrespect, and anger.

When are you contacting Dr. Harley?

What are you doing about your anger?

How did last night go?

4th time this has been asked. What is your plan for your anger?

Hey, I'm going to begin counselling for anger. Last night went very well as did today. I do have moments of disbelief (I can't believe I am still doing this when 99% of other men would have been gone from day one) and anger but I just let them pass and they do. I am going to ask my wife to take these classes with me.

Truthfully, it's mostly me that has a problem with me leaving the rig. Financial is not very high on my wife's list of needs, it's high on mine. We need to find a common ground for this as financial is in my top five.

Also order the book lovebusters as well. It will help reinforce the anger manangment classes and help with your mutual disrespect, demands and other damaging behavior you both need to eliminate in order to recover.

Did you listen to this?

You know, that's what Dr. Harley said he expected when he began counseling, but he was AMAZED at how many people wanted to recover their marriage after betrayal, if possible. It makes sense to keep families together, if the romantic love can be restored and everybody made safe.

Did not see an answer to this. Is your wife okay? Back with you? How is your daughter?

When?
Have you read what Dr. Harley says about anger yet?

Financial support is an emotional need that needs to be met by the OTHER PERSON in order to create romantic love. So I don't think that is an EN of yours. Sure, you have a need to earn a living, but it should be done in a way that complements your marriage, rather than harms it. That means you don't spend the nights apart. Find something that makes you both happy that does not endanger your marriage.

My wife has left me. Not sure why as things were very good. She got angry because one if my old rig buddies called and I didn't want to talk to him so I never answered. She left and sent a text stating that she wants half the money from our account. I took our daughter and went and got her money. While I was gone she came home and took my laptop and held it for ransom. She went on it and found some pictures of some girls that I got off a knife forum (I collect knives) years ago. Now she is saying I had an affair? I don't even know those girls and have never stepped outside of our marriage. She came and got her money and handed me the computer and keys to the apartment and she drove away. There was no AO on my part.

She just sent me a text stating that she is at the casino gambling our rent money away. She has a problem with gambling which I thought she had under control. She said she will come tomorrow to get her things. I don't get it, she wanted to have another baby with me this morning than because I wouldn't talk to one of my friends on the phone it's over?

You knew she has a problem with gambling and you complied with her request for half the money from your account?

Did you communicate with these girls at all?


Good for you staying calm; you have no hope without it.

They were??

Why do you have pictures of girls on your computer?

When are you going to take anger management?
Have you read what Dr. Harley says about anger?

Would you please start answering questions?

Things sure didn't look good at all. A week and a half ago he assaulted her. The cops have been to the home since then. Wife disappears all the time. Two nights ago she cried all night on the balcony.

Is this as good as marriage gets?

No have never contacted these girls, I don't even know them. I have lots of pics on my computer that I save from the web. These were just a few of them. I am going to get into anger management. I know it was a bad idea giving her the money but thats what she wanted. She texted back stating that she has lost all the money so I guess I have to let other bills slide as the rent has to get paid for my daughters well being. I have called my cell service provider and cancelled service to her iPhone, I dont need any added charges now. I though things were really good, she was happy, I was happy and we were talking about another baby even. She was crying on the balcony a few nights ago. She said she was terrified that I was going to leave her and now a couple days later she up and leaves? I don't know guys? She wont be back tonight, even if she comes back I won't allow her back in, I am tired of my little girl seeing all this, mommy comes then mommy goes again. I can't keep it up for my baby's sake something has to change. Either my wife wants this or not.

Did she tell you why she left?

She left because I wouldn't talk to one of my rig buddies. She said that I didn't want to talk to him while she was there because she thinks I am hiding something. The reason I didn't want to talk was because all he talks about is how well he's doing in life. He's buying another house, he's buying a new fifth-wheel holiday trailer.....etc. I just don't want to hear it. So, thats why she left. Great reason eh? I'm baffled by the whole thing really. So, now like many other nights its just me and my little girl and mommy is gone AWOL again. I did go to the police again after she started sending messages, I'm not dealing with another situation like before. I showed them the texts where she said she left and took some of my things and said if I didn't give her the money she would start destroying things. They informed me not to allow her back into the home, if she wants her things than they will come and "help" her remove them. But she left and the cop even said its not working, she gave me back the keys to the apartment as well and my laptop. I've asked her to come back but she said no.

What on earth for? Why would you save pictures of women that you see on the web?



Wouldn't this be offensive to most women?

As are we.

Well, you were hiding pictures of women on your computer.

What else are you hiding? If you want to recover, you ought to make it all open now.

If I found pictures of girls on my husband's computer, I'd change the locks.

I don't buy this.
You just happen to have pictures of girls, but you have no idea who they are? WHY do you have them? WHY would you save them?

And I don't buy for a minute that your wife was happy, or wanted to have your child this very morning.

You physically abused her at least once, verbally abused her with your AOs on a very regular basis, and you claim she was HAPPY?

I really don't know why I did. Didn't even remember they were there and yeah I can see why it would be considered offensive but it doesn't mean I had an A. I didn't even think anything of it. I have pics of other guys too, does that mean i'm gay? I have pics of knives that I see doesn't mean I want to cut myself with them. I never stepped outside this marriage, she did! She abandoned us and she's done it again.

Oh, and that letter never got delivered.

Bull.

How do you know the letter never got delivered?

Did you ever look at the pictures after you had saved them?

The pics are some of the girls that work for Busse knives, they are even holding the knives they make in the pics, another was one with one of the busse knife girls holding her baby, the other pic I don't even know where I got it or why I had it. I live in northern Canada, they are in Tennessee I think or wherever busse knives is based.

Been shopping around for a revenge affair?

Did you know that a betrayed spouse is the one who is at most risk for another affair in the marriage? What EPs have you put in place to prevent that?

Never looked at them that I can remember, Like I said I didn't even remember they were there and thats the truth.

I know the letter never got delivered because I sent it certified mail, checked the tracking number and it said the letter was not accepted at the door.

What EPs do you have in place to prevent an affair of your own?

Absolutely not, I took my wife back. I didn't have to but I did for a reason and thats not so I can have an affair of my own. I thought she was happy, she said a number of times that she was scared that I was going to leave but she seemed really happy. Sometimes she would start crying when she knew something was bothering me but I told her it was nothing and it would pass and she would be good again. The past few days when things would get tense we (both of us) would just stop and walk away then come back better. until tonight, which just blows my mind. She said she was going to let her sisters dog out, then she sent me a text saying she was leaving? we were going to go out shopping with our daughter until my buddy called and I wouldn't talk to him, then her mood suddenly flipped the other way. We never argued or anything, she just left.

When are you contacting Dr. Harley?

RNR,
Where is your wife right now?
When she asked for her half of the money did she say anything about leaving for good?
Does she know you called the cops on her?

She is having a nervous breakdown, it seems. She needs help.

Your story doesn't add up.

A few days ago you claimed she left you.
Then yesterday you find that she spent the night on the balcony crying.
Then today, she left you. Again. And you have no idea why because you two were SO HAPPY.

I go everywhere with my wife, she has full access to the computer and my own phone. She knows where I am at all times and I tell her everything. We had separate bank accounts I agreed that we will have a joint account with her having restrictions on her card (gambling). My Ep's are the same as hers really, only I never got to have the "fun" that she did. Either way, I never did anything.

What a wayward mindset.

List your EPs.

She never left, she said she was leaving. I went out and looked to see if she was gone and the car was still out in the parking stall so I just thought she was sitting in it wanting to be alone. Later, while I was in bed I hear crying, I came out of the bedroom and she was on the couch crying, she never left. She was on the balcony for a few hours. She even watched me go out and see if the car was still there. Thats just it, I was happy and I thought she was, she sure seemed like it anyway but all of a sudden something just changed and she left us.

And you THOUGHT SHE WAS HAPPY?

That was 2 days ago. She was not happy, and you know it. Stop pretending you don't know why she left. Nobody threatens to leave one day, is too happy to leave the next day, then leaves for no reason on the third day.

you have cut all communication - I need my medication, please let me come and get it.

She left because you abused her. We've told you that already.
She left because YOU are not serious about recovery.

What are you going to do about it?

mrs.cen, call the police if he has medication you need and won't give it to you.

I don't know what to say, she said she was happy but scared all the time. Maybe she felt she was walking on eggshells and I didn't even realize it. She acted happy and said so but I really don't know what she is feeling, she only knows that. Her attitude just seems to flip on a dime and then shes gone, then shes back.

I never cut all communication, the house phone has not rung once. of course she can have her medication. I've been asking her to come home all night. The buzzer for the apartment hasn't gone off?

Is there some reason you never answer this question?

you know i dont have that number

I'll send an e-mail tonight.

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

This thread is difficult to follow because there seems to be a lot of gaps and inconsistencies. But this much is certain: serious intervention is needed here. Both of you are incapable of handling this without help.

Contact the Harleys. Wait for their input. Cease fire.

I am/was serious about recovery. I can't recover what she doesn't want back. She has left a number of times, even before I put her out. She's gone again tonight and even gave up her keys to the apartment.

I'm working on the E-mail right now.

YOU DEMANDED THEM BACK (Sorry I wont continue to comment - you are not being honest)
PLEASE let me have my meds.

you can have them, you just need to come get them.

Well, she came to get her meds. When I opened the door she just barged in and won't leave. She says she is done with the recovery program and will not have anything to do with the NC letter which was not accepted at the door. . She thinks I had an affair? Because there are pics on my computer of girls that I don't know? I don't even remember when I got those. Other wise prove it? You all seem to think so as well? I guess that will hold up in court, yeah right! You say it's not me looking to recover? Why did I take her back to try reconciling? It's not me who doesn't want this, It's her.

Oh you want recovery on your terms and not using MB. You want that old marriage back were you were in charge and your wife was your servant. It seems when you don't get what you want you use AOs and the police to get it regardless on how she feels. That needs to stop as well as the not answering questions and lying. You know why those pics where there.

Your wife needs to stop the soiled princess act as well and be serious. She is still in contact with POSOM IMO and he's looking better everyday you act like a domineering caveman. What were the EPs? You do know they apply to both of you! What meds she need so desperately? This is going on with your daughter present? For shame!

I am not acting domineering. I simply told her that she can't leave, then return and so on. She either stays or she goes its simple. My EPs are the same as hers only I will not give her access to my email which contains legal info between me and my lawyer (I'm not stupid) we are reconciling not reconciled. I think she is in contact also. She no longer has the iPhone as I have had it cut off. She no longer even has keys to the apartment. My wife was never my servant. My wife has some psychiatric problems and is under the care of a psychiatrist. She suffers from sever panic and anxiety. Nothing is going on with my daughter present, I won't do that anymore. As for the pics I don't know. She can say what she wants but I don't even know those people. Otherwise show proof something happened. Something's have to be changed in the program, I have no choice but to go to the rig, have to pay bills some how now that money is gambled away. She did this last week as well, she left then wanted money so I gave it to her and its gone. I have some thinking to do.

I do not believe we can help the two of you. So many details are being left out, and I believe you continue to lie to us, RNR.

I think the two of you need to separate and seek professional help as soon as possible. I definitely recommend you pursue contacting Dr. Harley because of his wide experience.

I'm not lying about anything. I don't know what details you need? Right now I'm out having coffee alone in my truck. My wife has refused to find the contact info needed to deliver the NC letter. She says she doesn't know where this guy lives even though she was with him for more than two months? She said she doesn't even know if his cell numbers are the same because he changes them every couple months. He said she will go on FB and contact him herself to get the address, I told her that was not the way to so it. He's hiding from the law, he can't even use his real name on FB or show his face. My wife would like some suggestions? As for me I have left the apartment for the day and will stay away. If she would like to pack her things she may do it in privacy. I agree maybe we do need to separate. I suggested this to her a few days ago and she got angry and said there will be no separation only divorce if we part?

I do have a question for you guys, divorce has been filed. I did that the first week I found out. Does this mean that I have to stop it or it will one day just go through? I don't want that to happen. I don't want to call my lawyer about because its not cheap to talk to that [censored] even for 10 minutes. I have a email ready for Dr. Harley.

I smell double standard here.

It's okay for you to walk away and come back when it suits you, but not so for her.

It's okay for you to hide any knowledge or remembrance of girl pictures on your computer, but she's supposed to reveal all about herself that she knows to you.

She's supposed to quickly get over your AO's and not have her own, but you're allowed to express your grudge indefinitely.

It's okay for you to have email she can't read, but not okay for her.

EP's and transparency is required of both parties regardless of who did what and when.

You let her know at every opportunity that she's only allowed to stay at your forbearance, some of which has nothing to do with any Lovebusters she's made, but rather seems to be based on what side of the bed you woke up on.

You are providing instability for her. It's no wonder she doesn't know which way to jump.

The other day was to your day to stay cool and you didn't.

Your one last act of kindness can be to make up your mind as to whether you want to reconcile or not. Divorce or not. Like Dr. Harley says, if you decide reconciliation, then make it reconciliation, not punishment. Reconciliation begins with the Lovebusters that you can control: your own. Be honest enough with yourself and her as to whether you can do this. No one makes you who you are or makes you behave in a certain way except your own self. If it's habitual, it's your job and work to change that habit.

You keep pulling your weapons out and blowing her away every time she doesn't do something "right." Quit it. Decide: divorce or reconciliation, but not punishment.

You could just ask your lawyer with that email account of yours.

Anyway, it won't go all the way to divorce, usually, until you go before the judge and verify that's what you want and the judge agrees that it's justified.

You can e-mail your lawyer. The rate should be much less than setting up a meeting or calling him/her. If it isn't, then get a new lawyer.

Wow!

I shall enjoy learning how BH's refusing to speak to his former co-worker can be used as justification for WW bolting the family home!

I will sit here ENTHRALLED in expectation of reading how WW's gambling away increasingly important joint financial assets (which has been related as being much more highly valued by BH than her) will be blamed on BH!

I will also look forward to learning how POSOM could have known to refuse to sign for the certified letter!

Then, and only then, will I give NG's MB-principled interpretation of these events - for as long as they are permitted to remain!

What state are you in RNR?

Alberta, Canada

I tend to see this as you do. But there are some inconsistencies in his story and contradictions by his wife that cloud this whole thread. I'm not saying the whole thing is a hoax, but its starting to look like one.

Regardless of who is telling the truth, we cannot help either of them the way this thread is going. Their only hope at this point is to contact the Harleys, share their stories truthfully if the are capable, and take their counsel.

A divorce will not just go through if you do nothing. On what grounds did you file for divorce? Adultery?

I have been listening to some of dr. Harley's radio program. I have been making a few mistakes, seems I have missed the meaning of a few concepts. She has also been making huge mistakes. I think my love bank is very much empty.

Adultery, gambling/impulse control.


Brainhurts, thanks for those links.

That is why I think a cease fire is needed. Every action the two of you take damages the relationship more and more. No contact until you hear back from the Harleys.

Send out the e-mail today. Let them know the crisis is at its peak.

Does anyone know where RNR's wife's thread is?

I am concerned about her gone missing.

RNR, I wasn't suggesting that it was okay for her to leave and come back as she will, but that you both need to have the same standard of conduct. Lead by example and exert power over your emotions so that you don't lose your own impulse control.

You stay calm, make your decision, but don't be demanding, disrespectful, or show anger when you do. You're not helpless - there are logical things you can do. If she isn't willing to do her part of recovery, you can choose what to do that doesn't involve Lovebusters.

Hi, my wife has removed her thread. She refuses to come back here although she did post last night lookin for her meds. A few days ago she gave me a choice, she said either this forum goes or she is going. She doesn't think you guys are helpful to me and says you put thoughts into my head. I think you are very helpful and I feel we need this, that's why I refuse to leave and continue to post to receive advise and guidance. I will try and get my wife back on board if she will. Either way, I will not leave and I will await contact with dr. Harley.

I didn't know that one could remove their own thread.


Good, good! And when you hear from Dr. Harley, don't dismiss a thing he tells you to do. Don't do a single thing he tells you not to do. He's seen it all.

This has been very difficult to follow. The events that have described have been so different.....it has become increasingly difficult to discern, what or who is who telling the truth, things being left out......etc. It would be very wise to email the Harleys as previously suggested.

She refuses to come back here although she did post last night lookin for her meds. A few days ago she gave me a choice, she said either this forum goes or she is going. An ultimatum issued to the BS by the WS to cease receiving MB support? My, my - how very.....unique!

She doesn't think you guys are helpful to me and says you put thoughts into my head. Most WSs think we are not helpful to BSs, and we plead "guilty" to putting thoughts into your head - thoughts about: holding her accountable for her actions; insisting she commit to following the MB plan, or be willing to accept the consequences for refusing; having the self-respect to understand that cravenly "giving in to get along" never serves a BS well. Yup, that's us!

I think you are very helpful and I feel we need this, that's why I refuse to leave and continue to post to receive advise and guidance. I will try and get my wife back on board if she will. Either way, I will not leave and I will await contact with dr. Harley. Hoo-wah!

There may be more to this than simple waywardness, NG. He did manhandle her out the door after he began posting. Cause and effect would look like that the MB forums are making him more volatile.

How should one insist for their spouse to follow MB?
What are the consequences and how are they carried out for not doing as told in regards to this?

This sounds ever so close to a threat and would especially sound like it coming from someone who has demonstrated that they'll put their hands on you in anger.

Going along to get along serves no one well.

We obviously don't know even the half of it, but advising against Lovebusters never fails to be good advice.

There may be more to this than simple waywardness, This assumes facts not in evidence, LL.

...advising against Lovebusters never fails to be good advice. Sold! So, when will the cadre here speak to the WW about the unmitigated crap in which she has been engaging? Up above, there was NO ONE who more than me ripped into RNR for HIS moronic contributions to this soap-opera. Since then, he has minded his manners, even (foolishly, in reflection) giving her $500 because she wanted it. That same NO ONE has whacked Mrs Cen with the same size/brand of two-by-four.

It does not assume facts. He's the one that admitted how he "escorted" her out the door, how he called the police to make a point, and so on. The punishment is in evidence. Punishment makes this a situation that is more than waywardness. She's not wayward in thinking that she wants no part of being abused, though she's wayward in not implementing EP's.

Dr. Harley advises that when a WW comes out of withdrawal, she may start calling him names, telling him how badly he's treated her, and other such Lovebusters, but the BH MUST NOT lovebust back. It's true men are more frightening with their anger - they are stronger and bigger, intimidating.

I don't think too many posters are suggesting she is doing her part, just that RNR hasn't helped her to want to try.

LL,

BH's are advised ALL THE TIME to carry a VAR in case there is a false allegation of domestic abuse. I do not know what the actual case is here. Things just are not adding up.

Mrs cen going to him and getting cash then heading to the casino just does not sound like someone who is working the program, shoring up boundaries with EP.

Mrs cen leaves for her safety then returns for gambling money.

Something is just way off here.

Part of the basics is that waywards lie.

I was only repeating what I've heard Dr. Harley say numerous times.
The BH is advised by posters many times to carry a VAR. Whether they do or not, it doesn't change the fact that Dr. Harley advises to not lovebust.

It's not an allegation that he manhandled her out the door, then justified why he treated her that way.

People who abuse lie, too.

Again, I'm not saying mrs_cen is behaving well herself, but the love busting has simply got to stop. Who's going to work on it first? Dr. Harley usually tries to get the husband to do so first.

I am absolutely amazed by this thread.

Mb principles is to avoid dj's and that is all I have seen from posters on this thread. **EDIT**

Rnr I believe has been honest with us. Even when he dragged his wife out the door he told us without trying to hide it.

Mrs cen is a ww. Ww's lie all of the time. Because rnr had a bad angry outburst, everyone now assumes that any problems that happen are from angry outbursts.

Rnr several times described her ao, but because mrs cen, (who is a ww and all ww's lie) doesn't mention them everyone assumes rnr is to blame.

He thinks she leaves and the response is "good, she wasn't safe" when we have NO IDEA of the circumstances, or if rnr has been having ao. That was completely and utterly inappropriate and disrespectful.

Because of ONE bad Ao **EDIT** you ASSUME that he is having them all of the time as and that Mrs cen is just an innocent helpless thing weathering the storm.

**EDIT**

I read the last few days of responses and it made me sick.

And RNR, I do believe you when you say you forgot about the pics, I have pics of my wife that I have forgotten about. However I do have to say that busse knives are over hyped, over priced, and I'm not a fan of jerry busse.

**EDIT**

If he was "honest" about it, then we have no reason to believe his wife lied about that incident. What we do have to do is give this poster advice that is consistent with that of Dr Harley. And when there has been physical violence, the next step is to separate until the anger is under control. THAT is what Dr Harley says to do.

And that is what we should tell this poster's wife to do.

And I don't know why the practice of "DJs" was introduced. As posters, we are not trying to fill each others lovebanks so disrespectful judgments would not be relevant to this discussion.

**edit**

A reminder to posters that the purpose of this forum is to help this poster with MB concepts. If you are not familiar with MB concepts, then please refrain from posting. Don't disrupt this thread lecturing other posters. Notify the moderators and let us take care of the lectures.

Thank you

**edit**

Moderator's note: do not disrupt this thread again! Help this poster with Marriage Builders solutions or refrain from posting.

Addicts, over the long haul, become master manipulators and cons to continue to feed their addictions.

Her conning you out of money again and again just so she can continue to feed her gambling addiction is cruel.
She has no remorse either.... Typical sign of an "active" addict.

From the sound of things, I'm not sure she is capable of remorse.

This situation is soooo typical of an addict and the enabler. The only caveat is that she is a wayward woman as well.

She has all the classic con games going on. Guilt the enabler enough to get what she wants and then cry wolf..... I've seen many addicts like her before. Dr. H says it's pointless to recover with an addict until their addiction is completely under control.

She's got you dancing and jumping through so many hoops that it's a miracle you have any ability to keep any of your emotions in check. (though I'm not excusing your AO's here)

You should not be trying to meet her needs until she stops her gambling addiction.

She is using you! Just like all addicts do!

I watch so many drunks pick a fight with their spouses just so the can justify leaving and heading back to the bar!

PlanB is what Dr. H prescribes for dealing with addicts.

Cut off her source of funds!

So do abusive husbands.

Have you found an anger management group, RNR?

Also a good clip on gambling addiction.

Radio Clip on Gambling

Hi, yes I have found a counselling service which works with people on budgets to help us.

My wife sent an email today. She was contacted within minutes by Joyce and we have been invited to be on the show. My wife is calling her this morning.

Thank you guys!

Good. When do you start?
Have you read what Dr. Harley says about anger, and does this service line up with what he says needs to be done to eliminate anger? Not all anger management programs are equal or productive.

I have contacted them and am awaiting a reply for booking. They seem to be in line with what is needed.

Let us know when you are on the show.

The fact that they teach Relaxation techniques is very good.
The two things that concern me are "How to replace these patterns with a model of assertive anger" and "Effective and healthy ways of expressing anger." Be very leery of anything they tell you about those two items. You do not need to express anger in "healthy" ways and you have no need for assertive anger.

I'd like an answer to this: Have you read what Dr. Harley says about eliminating anger? It will help you in picking out the good from the bad advice in any anger management program.

The only thing I have read from Dr. Harley about anger is your link "what to do with an angry husband". Is there a more in depth link you have?

I will keep you up to date as to when the show will take place.

Suggested reading:
How to Negotiate When You Are an Emotional Person(Great information in here on relaxation and biofeedback devices)
Anger Management 101
The Angry Outburst chapter in Lovebusters (do you have this book yet?)

Thanks!

We will be on the show Friday morning.

Good news! I thought this going nowhere. This gives some hope.

I'm having a hard time writing this email that the Harley's want from me. It's bringing back a lot of hurt. My wife abandon us all. Easter was one of the worst days, she spent two days home that entire week. Me and her sister put out the Easter eggs ourselves, my wife never bothered to come home. We waited for an hour the next day for her to arrive for the kids but I couldn't stand to watch them stand there looking at eggs try couldn't have so I said that's long enough, go ahead kids. She came in just as it was over. I don't think she even said she was sorry to our daughter. I feel like breaking down I tears right now.

I look forward to hearing it RNR.

I'm sorry you have relive this.

Can you forward the text she sent you of the timeline?
Then ask them to ask you any pertinent questions?

RNR, the way to recover from this trauma is going to be to build a happy present and future. When that happens, your resentment will fade.

If your wife can take the measures necessary to prevent a future affair and you can learn to not lose your temper, then the two of you can build that happy present and future together.

I would try not to get bogged down in details in writing Joyce and Dr. Harley, but focus on the basics: she has had an affair, the gambling addiction, the condition she is being medicated for, and of course include your own angry outbursts and your job situation. These are the problems I'm seeing as crucial for the two of you to solve in order to be able to recover together.

I sent my e-mail, I feel like garbage right now.

I hope you guys listen and can offer some of you own advise and/or experience.

I'm sorry, RNR. It really is the worst trauma anyone could go through.

There are a lot of problems here ... difficult to overcome, but not insurmountable. Dr. Harley takes a real problem solving approach, showing you how to tackle problems one by one. Affair proofing the marriage, overcoming addictions, building a compatible lifestyle, eliminating abuse and control. Every one of these is a piece of the puzzle. We've been through a lot of them here in this house, and I can tell you that the result is very happy. We act like we did when we were dating - our relationship has us excited and is the most important thing in our life, and we love building our life together.

We will.

Hey guys, you all know that my wife took off for more then two months with this other guy. She was gone most every night and day. She says she doesn't know where he lives even though its only 10 minutes from our home but she's never been there? She gave me an address tht she says her sister got for her and we sent the NC letter but it was not accepted at the door and is sitting at the post office awaiting pick up and has been for a week now. Should I believe that my wife does not know where he lives? She said they stayed in hotels every night even though he lives right here? Why would anyone pay rent for a place to live and then drop money for hotels five nights a week, how is this even slightly believable?

One reason someone would conduct the affair this way is to keep it secret. If you don't want anyone to know you're doing something illicit, you take the illicit activity somewhere else - somewhere people don't know you.

They never kept it a secret once people found out for sure. This guy even asked her to move in with him, which is something she posted here but never told me about.

No.

She is covering for him and doesn't want him to get the NC letter.

As I shared with you before, believe nothing that comes out of her mouth. All WW's lie, lie, lie. Lying and A's go hand in hand.

VERIFY EVERYTHING.

If you pose the right questions, A lie detector test should clear things up.

Yes, she's lying.

Did you mention this in your e-mail to the Harley's?

Yes I did mention it. I said it was one of the most pressing issues I'm having.

Good.

Try and enjoy the week as best you can and get away this situation. Wait till you hear from the Harley's before taking action. Is there anything fun you can do until Friday?

Please list them.

Is the OM married? If so, they probably didn't meet at his house. As much as you don't like it, it may be up to you to pinpoint who and where he is and get that affair dead. No contact must be established and no Lovebusters from you must be established. That's no guarantee to make things work, but it is a guarantee that you did all you could and did it with your honor intact.

RNR, have you had AOs with your WW pre-affair? I can't find where you have admitted to pre-A AOs so am curious why the anger mgmt.

Look forward to hearing you two on MB radio.

He has serious AO issues NOW.

I'd like to know this too...


We all know you've got anger issues "now", but some of us know to expect this anger due to being betrayed so deeply. Some of us also find your past anger (pre-affair), or lack of, to be relevant to the advice we plan to offer.

I'm also curious how long you've been living with her gambling addiction? When did WW cross the line and how badly has this affected your cash/credit/assets?

Remember Dr. H's basic tenet about anger: Nobody makes you angry; you choose to be angry. Others can frustrate you, but it is your own choice to allow that frustration to manifest itself as anger. Even something as drastic as betrayal does not give you an excuse for AOs.

**EDIT**

Edited

RNR,

How are you doing?

Hey, I'm still here. Me and my wife had a rough couples days but its good now. We just got off the air with the Harley's and it was very help full. I need to get my AOs under control and into the program. Dr. Harley thinks that the root cause of my wife's issues stems from impulse control. We are going to work on that. My wife has been seeing this psychologist since she was 12 and he has never brought up impulse control to her, Dr. Harley picked it up from a couple emails an this forum, even my lawyer after reading the FB messages I got between my wife that this other guy said impulse control right away. I want my wife to get a new psychologist.


I hope you guys listened it will listen. My wife kind of hung up right away. I think Dr. Harley had some things to tell us off air. I hope he calls back.

My wife accidentally hung up I mean. Sorry baby!

The Harleys go right from their callers to addressing email questions, so it is unlikely that you missed much when the call was dropped as time would have been limited. But, why wonder? Send him an email and ask.

As a listener, I heard a lot of hope for your situation.

RNR, I am amazed at the insight that Dr Harley has. I think he has a natural GIFT of being able to see things others do not see. It almost brought me to tears when he told her that her anxieties would go down in direct correlation to her impulsive acts. I wanted to cheer when I heard him say that.

I suffered from this same thing for most of my life and also had addictions. It wasn't until I met my current H and we learned to use the POJA that my stress level went way down. If she will stick to the PORH and the POJA, it will absolutely transform her life. That will protect her from herself. And once she gets into the habit of controlling her impulses, it will become second nature to her. It will be tough not getting everything she wants when she wants it AT FIRST, but when sees how not living at the mercy of her impulses changes everything, she won't want to go back.

I think that making these changes will dramtically change your wife's life. And your marriage.

I am anxious to listen to the program this evening.

Many here on the forum were encouraging your W to separate from you and were very hard on you because of anger issues. What was his position on this?

Dr Harley took the same position and recommended that he immediately get into Anger Managerment classes AND suggested they separate if he has angry outbursts. He pointed out that he is dangerous to her when he is angry. Dr Harley pretty much told them everything we did, EXCEPT he really focused on her impulse control. HE doesn't even think she is really a gambling addict, just that she has poor impulse control and makes bad decisions. He believes her anxiety attacks are directly related to her poor impulses. IF she gets her impulse control under control, her anxiety attacks will go away.

Harley also felt she should go to a psychologist - a new one - to learn impulse control. She is seeing one now who has been no help to her in this regard.

I am so glad you talked with the Harley's today.

It looks like you both need a plan, with real steps and milestones written out.

I hope you can keep us updated, but if not, take Dr. Harley's invitation to write to him.

So happy that you two were able to get on the show and it sounds like you were given a lot of great advice. YES!!!!

RNR,

Delighted to hear that both of you went on with Dr. Harley. That was a HUGE step towards recovery we hope.

And credit to you for sticking with the forum and taking our advice--and 2x4s--during a very tumultuous crises.

We are looking forward to seeing how things progress.

How does your wife feel about all of this?

Just now getting a chance to listen to your show, and it was a good one.

Joyce mentioned to you that you have all weekend to re-listen to the show -- have you had a chance to do that?

How's the anger management going?

Dr Harley labeled it as impulse control because "gambling is not included with other addictions in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders"...

"Gambling problems are referred to as pathological gambling which is listed as one of six disorders under Impulse-Control Disorders."So Dr. Harley was being technically correct as there is no gambling addictions per se...

I'm concerned that we haven't heard from either of you guys in awhile.

RNR, I'm glad to see that your wife is posting. What's happening, from your perspective?

Your wife says you're doing good as far as stopping when you become angry!

I'm doing fine, when I get upset I just leave and go for a walk. I'm registered for an anger course but I don't know if we will be able to afford it right away. I'll try and find a cheaper one if possible. My wife seems to get upset when I say I'm goin for a walk and demands to know what it is that is upsetting me. I don't want to talk about it as we are not supposed to anymore. She does not like this at all and she usually runs off herself then. It seems that lately she is blaming me for her affair. She seems to be having a lot if difficulty with having to give up a things like Facebook and her "friends". She won't talk to me when I need to talk, she says its a waste of time, she is constantly on her phone lately doin hiding low what. We are having a hard time right now as I don't trust a word she says and he thinks I should trust her again. Months ago while my wife was off doing whatever she wante to do I made a match.com profile which I never used and she found out about it and is now saying I had an affair? I logged on tonight to show her that I never used it, I never paid for it and I never even filled in the about section or put a picture on it. She would not look, she just said I was a hypocrite and I had an affair which I never. I was just getting ready to move on that's all.

I really don't think she is much interested in this at all. She doesn't think I should be able to think about the past unless I tell her what I'm thinking, which as far as I understand we were not supposed to bring up anymore? Am I missing something here? She flat out refuses to talk to me or offer any comfort. She literally called me a child and said I need to grow up and move on. She says she's done everything that is required on her part but the letter was never delivered, she hides her phone and what she's doing at times mostly when she's upset. She gets up and leaves and says she's going to a "friends" which is where she's gone right now and I am supposed to trust her? She has not found a new psychiatrist and she has stopped going to her old one. I'm not sure how to take all this.

I just tried to talk to my wife again before she went to bed. She refused to say anything to me. I asked her if she was happy and she said she had nothing to say, " it doesn't matter anymore" are her exact words. I don't know what to do? Dr. Harley said it was up to her as to whether or not this will work but she doesn't seem to care whatsoever. Maybe she has already made a choice, she just doesn't want to say it yet.

I know this sounds like I am trivializing your situation, but the basic problem seems obvious to me. You both have negative LB balances, and you are allowing your instincts to dictate your behaviors. Although it doesn't feel right, you need to concentrate on making LB deposits, and avoiding withdrawals. Right now, your marriage is like a car that is stuck in the mud, and the two of you want to argue about why. It is time to get out of the car and push.

mrEureka is exactly right. Stop the things that are causing love bank withdrawals. (example: delete your match.com profile, and make sure she can verify that you don't reestablish it or do anything else like that)

Focus your in person talking on things that are enjoyable. Take your complaints and make them written, i.e., "I need you to quit Facebook." Then you will be less likely to fight over them.

One problem that I see on both sides is demanding that the other spouse talk when he or she is not enthusiastic about it. An example would be her demanding that you talk when you are leaving because you feel angry. I'm also concerned that, depending on your reaction to her when she didn't want to talk last night, she might have perceived that as demanding as well.

One of the most important things you can be doing is scheduling fifteen hours to date each week. That is the time for ENJOYABLE conversation together.

Dr. Harley told you guys to email him going forward if you have any trouble. Send him an email!

Hey, I recently found out that my wife's time line may be false. A family member told me that they found out something was going on back in January where as my wife said that they never made contact until Febuary? Is this something I should worry about?

Uhhh, you now believe that the cheating...woman...is actually still LYING to you? Oh, dear! Whoda thunk it?

Whatever you do, do NOT have an AO! It would be agony to endure another round of "Tsk-tsk's" in that event!

I'm not going to have an outburst. Nothin I can do about it but try and figure it out on my own. The NC letter was never delivered either so who really knows right?

Did you send Dr. Harley an email? You've got ongoing personal help from the best marriage counselor available.

I'll contact him. I can't talk to my W about it as we are not supposed to anymore but there are still things that are occupying my mind about her intentions. I'm trying to trust her.

Excellent.

I will tell you that in my case I had a lot of trouble trusting my wife's sincerity in following the program. Dr. Harley repeatedly assured me that my wife had good intentions and good will. I have heard him say the opposite in cases where the wife was NOT sincerely trying. So I think he is a pretty good judge of the situation and can advise you will.

I am glad that I trusted Dr. Harley's appraisal of the situation and kept working, because once my wife fell in love with me, things turned around dramatically!

Could someone give me the Harley's email again? I can't seem to find it.

mbradio@marriagebuilders.com

Turns out that he contacted my wife at the very end of January and they were together by the second of Febuary. That was pretty quick. My W is mad right now, she won't talk to me because I never asked her about this first before posting here. I was talking to some family members about things and my W does not like that?

Let her be mad and let her decide not to talk to you. That is her decision. You have the right to find out about the truth.

I will say that it is common for some of the wayward's details to be confused or not quite add up - they were in the fog after all, with brains turned off, and may not remember accurately.

Did you contact Dr. Harley?

Never sent one yet, I'm at work but I will tonight.

I found out a few things tonight. The reason this guy approached my W in the first place was because she was posting how unhappy she was with our marriage on her FB page. He came to her to console her and she jumped right in. I should have listened to my father who told me while I was away at work something was going on based on the things she was saying on FB. He asked if everything was ok at home, I said yes. I have never had a Facebook account so I never looked to see. I thought he was just overreacting, This was at the begining of January. After I found out about the A my father even told me who it was before I knew based on what he saw. He even told me some of the comments she made about me one that sticks out most in my mind was "I want to smash his face in with a brick". So, I guess that's where I stood at that time. My wife denies all of this, she said my father is f@&$ing lier. I told my W that I wanted her to get rid of the iPhone and get a dumbphone and she got very angry and said she will get her own phone, one that's not on my plan. I just left the room and I think I'll just sleep on the couch tonight.

Apparently him and her commenting on each others walls is not considered communication?

Are you talking about current, or past?

I understand where you are coming from, but you need to close the case; your wife had an affair, and you know with whom. You have a fair timeline.

Your previous post about locking down communication through a phone is a good EP, but ruminating on the semantics of the past isn't going to progress your recovery.

So you know who the OM is? You knew even before the affair was revealed? You could use this information to get a NC letter to him.

How did you approach her about the new phone? Use any Lovebusters?

I'm not saying she is doing things that follow MB principles. I'm saying that you can't make her do those things. A load of threats and laying down the law won't convince her to do those things. You following your part, no Lovebusters and a logical, self-controlled approach MAY convince her to do things good for your marriage. That's the part that's up to her at this moment. No guarantee that your good behavior will convince her, but it is guaranteed that Lovebusters will not convince her.

Constructing effective EPs that deal with the conditions of the affair without dwelling on the affair is a real challenge. I struggled with it, and obviously you do to. HHH is pointing you to one of the key strategies, keeping your focus forward. When I was in your place, NeverGuessed told me keep my eye on the goal.

If you were recovering from a bad accident, you would be trying to learn from the accident so as to prevent a reoccurrence, but not continually reliving the horrors of the accident in the process. Not dwelling on the affair benefits *you*.