I'd love to get some advice and answers to questions, here's my story:
We'll start with d-day:
3/19/13 - My husband had been apartment shopping for a few weeks now, we'd been discussing a trial separation for about a month and I was on board with it. We'd both been feeling indifferent for a while and I (foolishly) thought this would help us realize if we still wanted to be married. Prior to this, we had a 1 week separation this past december when he left xmas morning after some days of us arguing. So on 3/19, I happened to use his computer and his email was open, I decided to look around and was horrified to find out that he'd been having an affair for at least a year and a half. I confronted him that evening, he denied, said he couldn't talk about it and left. I was shocked that I was so upset, for the longest time I wanted something to bring me out of my indifference (my own affair fog) and this was it.
After a few days of him being gone, I decided to talk to him and let him know that I wanted to work on our marriage, that I wanted to be with him and that I was able to move on because I had my own brief affair back in Nov 2012 (lasted 3 weeks) and that I completely understood what he was going through (the fantasy, thinking they're the "soulmate", believing you married the wrong person, etc). I totally got it! He was completely closed off at this point, but the next day I showed up at his parents house for a big family get together and he took one look at me and decided he wanted to come back. We left 2 days later for a long planned family vacation and went thru a very nice honeymoon like phase. While on our trip we did some reading online on this and other sites and I thought we were in a recovery. At this point our parents, some siblings and close friends know about the affair and the OW knows that I know.
We come back home and start marriage therapy, she has us read SAA and it all makes sense to us. At this time, I learn how to check the cell phone records online and discover that he had been intermittently contacting the OW - twice from our family trip and several times since we'd been back home. I confront him about it, he says it won't happen again, he felt bad about the way he left it with her, it was just to catch up, etc. I made the mistake of admitting that I knew because of checking the phone records, so I lost that. I threatened that the next time I find them contacting each other, that i'm going to tell her boyfriend - in the beginning, we had sort of a deal that he wouldn't go beat up my AP and I would leave her alone.
As a condition for complete transparency, I demanded to be put on all bank accounts and have access to all phone records, key to his office, etc. As a result of having online access to bank accounts, I see that his gambling problem from about 6 years ago is back in full force - he'd been spending several days a week at casinos and was withdrawing more money than we could afford to spend. Around this time, I figure out how to track him through his phone and discover that he spent almost every day for an entire week at various casinos. This also happened to be at a time that she was out of the country on vacation - I suspect (but have no proof) that he saw her the day before she left.
My own personal therapist urges me to do something about the gambling. In the past, I've always put my foot down with this man, but now, under these circumstances, being afraid that he's going to leave, I was allowing him to go down this downward spiral. I confront him (nicely) about the gambling and express my desire to get him help. He gets angry and claims that I can't take away his gambling too. I decided to get his family involved and we have an intervention - he's open to getting help and starts therapy and GA meetings. This all happened the week before last.
So here we are, in a recovery or false recovery, I don't know. I have some decent detective work going on, but there may be some loopholes since he knows about most of it (checking phone records, tracking thru phone). I think if they are still continuing the affair, I will be able to find out eventually. I'm willing to just pop-in on him now, check the parking lot at his office for her car, etc.
Some points that may or may not be useful:
- There is no pull back with him. When we are together, everything's great. We're working on fulfilling each others emotional needs and spending lots of time together.
- I'm a stay at home mom and he's the breadwinner. Because of the gambling and other financial situations we would have an extremely difficult time financially in a plan B. I'd fully expect for him to cut me off and i would have NO money and no family to live with.
- He was in the hospital in January with panic attacks - caused by him trying to decide to stay or go
- Reading over various texts and emails during the course of their affair, she mentions pregnancy scares quite a bit and I'm worried that if he's continuing the affair or in a plan B, that she will try to get pregnant.
- My AP was my personal trainer. I left my gym and have cut all contact with him. I'm completely out of my fog.
- Their plan was for my husband to move into his apartment and then she would wait 6 months to make sure that he wasn't going to come back to me and then she would leave her boyfriend and move in.
Questions:
- Is this recovery or plan A or both?
- What happens if I discover them still having contact? Start with full exposure and go to plan A since I didn't really do that the first time? Or move straight to plan B?
- If I caught them in person, which is likely how i'd catch them since they would be working around the measures I put in place, do I confront them in person or just drive off and confront him when he gets home? Do I at any point contact her? Now? Or if i find them still having contact?
- When it comes to full exposure - one of my main worries is that since this is her boyfriend (of 7 years) and not her husband, that he would just leave her if he found out and then that makes her available for my husband. I think one of my husband's main fears is that if he would leave me for her, but in the end she wouldn't leave her boyfriend. Would it be helpful for my situation for her boyfriend to know? I'm thinking not.
- Do we even bother with marriage therapy? The woman we were seeing, although she rec'd this great book, wasn't terribly helpful and said that she didn't really think we should continue anyways since he was lying about the gambling. My husband says he doesn't like her and wants to find someone new. I think I found something in another thread about marriage therapy not being that useful. Paying for multiple therapists (mine, his addiction therapist and the marriage therapist) is not really something we can afford. I'm confused.
Any other advice would be greatly appreciated!
Welcome to MB.
You aren't in recovery. He is cake eating with having you both meeting his needs.
You need to expose. You don't know what her BF will do with this knowledge but he needs to know.
If he won't end the affair then you must go to Plan B.
Was your affair ever exposed?
Also have you read all of these?
Start Here First-Welcome Aboard
Thanks!
One thing that confuses me about plan A - from what I understand of it, you are with the WS showing them what a great spouse you can be with the knowledge that they are still seeing the other person? Or is it once you see that they are still having contact with the AP, you move to plan B? Even if you've only been in plan A a short period of time? I read that moving straight to plan B doesn't work. I was thinking that within 3 months of d-day (6/18) if I see that they are still having contact, that then I would move to plan B. At this point he swears he hasn't had any contact with her and I have no proof otherwise. The only known contact was exactly 1 month ago. He appears to be very happy here and is constantly telling me and the kids how much he loves us / loves his family.
Exposure - My parents, siblings and friends found out from me on d-day. His parents knew before I did because he had been prepping them for his leaving me. Telling them how awful I was and that he'd been seeing someone else. Most of his friends already knew as well and had been covering for him. He's been pretty open to talking to many of his friends about every part of our ordeal.
Thanks!
One thing that confuses me about plan A - from what I understand of it, you are with the WS showing them what a great spouse you can be with the knowledge that they are still seeing the other person? Or is it once you see that they are still having contact with the AP, you move to plan B? Even if you've only been in plan A a short period of time? I read that moving straight to plan B doesn't work. I was thinking that within 3 months of d-day (6/18) if I see that they are still having contact, that then I would move to plan B. At this point he swears he hasn't had any contact with her and I have no proof otherwise. The only known contact was exactly 1 month ago. He appears to be very happy here and is constantly telling me and the kids how much he loves us / loves his family.
Exposure - My parents, siblings and friends found out from me on d-day. His parents knew before I did because he had been prepping them for his leaving me. Telling them how awful I was and that he'd been seeing someone else. Most of his friends already knew as well and had been covering for him. He's been pretty open to talking to many of his friends about every part of our ordeal.
Dr. Harley recommends Plan A for BW no longer than 3 weeks and if the WH won't stop the affair and commit to recovery then go to Plan B.
Plan A is both carrot and stick.
Read this.
Carrot and Stick of Plan A
Did he write a NC letter to the OW?
Who did you expose to on OW's side? Her BF needs to know.
what's BW? i didn't see it on the list of abbrev.
no NC letter - he claims they had their final "we can't talk" phone call when i said i would tell her BF if they continue to have contact.
exposure on OW's side - her boss is my husband's best friend who has been in love with her for years. he knows. he caught them together at his house because that's where my husband goes when we separate. i met with him and he talked to her about staying away.
i know what i'm about to say is crazy - i know i'm a great catch and he would be insane to leave me, but at the same time - she's exactly what he would want (attractive, fun, young, an attorney like him, she practices the type of law he wants to get into, sexual, supportive and on and on). i'm afraid if we went to plan B that he wouldn't come back. he's also not the type to come crawling back and thinks that so much damage has been done that it's best to move on.
ok. i read he recommends 3 months for a BW and 6 months for a BH. that's how i came up with 6/18. but i'm still confused - if you find out before that time is up that the affair is still continuing, you move straight to plan B or do you wait until that time is up? then go to plan B.
another thing - we read SAA together and he's familiar with all of this
Hi honey, welcome to Marriage Builders. I have read through your post and the first place I would start is exposure. You need to do this to ensure that the affair is killed off. The more people who know, the more people to hold him accountable.
I would start with the OW's boyfriend and then go to your husband's family and close friends. The affair should also be exposed to the OW's family. Does she have a facebook account? Go read my exposure thread to get exposure tactics and talking points.
The second big missing piece is your husband's lifestyle. He should account to you for all his leisure time. His lifestyle is set up now in a way that would support a secret second life. That has to go. All of his leisure time should be spent with YOU. His life should be absolutely transparent, giving you full access to his phone, email, etc. Any phone #s or emails that were used by the SKANK should be eliminated so she can never get through.
Additionally, he should never spend the night apart from your OR have any opposite sex friendships. That is how affairs start.
Unless he can GUARANTEE and PROVE that contact has ended for life, then you are not safe and should go into Plan B.
ok. i read he recommends 3 months for a BW and 6 months for a BH. that's how i came up with 6/18. but i'm still confused - if you find out before that time is up that the affair is still continuing, you move straight to plan B or do you wait until that time is up? then go to plan B.
No, he recommends THREE WEEKS for women.
MelodyLane:
The primary reason for abandoning plan A for plan B is protection. The stress experienced in plan A (trying to care for someone too long who is hurting you more deeply than you ever have, or ever will, experience) can leave you physically and emotionally damaged. So the question each person must ask themselves is, "how tough am I?"
My experience is that men are tougher mentally and physically than women. By that, I mean that women seem to start falling apart emotionally and physically after just a few months, or even a few weeks, of plan A. Men, on the other hand, seem to be able to keep it up for years before experiencing health problems.
If I don't know a person too well, I tend to lean to the safe side by recommending 3-4 weeks of plan A for women, and 6 months for men. But if a woman is no worse for wear after a few weeks, or a man is feeling okay after 6 months, there's no reason to end plan A at that point. As you can see, it's inexact, and depends on how the person is doing. A good support system (like the support people often receive on the Forum) can often keep a person in plan A much longer.
Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.
radio clip about Plan A and length of time:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2793
what would be adequate proof that it was over?
if i can handle plan a still, then i should stick with it? we have some trips booked in the next month for the both us and i feel like we're on a good roll. this time would be depositing a lot of love units after almost 2 years of us being very disconnected. plus, he just gave up the gambling (and pot) cold turkey and is getting help, i don't want that to fall by the wayside if we go to plan b. i feel like she'll see that we're staying together and move on.
so for the steps to take right now: exposure -> stay in plan a (unless he gets pissed and leaves) -> move to plan b if any contact occurs after that
what would be adequate proof that it was over?
He will have to PROVE it to you. That would be adequate.
if i can handle plan a still, then i should stick with it? we have some trips booked in the next month for the both us and i feel like we're on a good roll. this time would be depositing a lot of love units after almost 2 years of us being very disconnected. plus, he just gave up the gambling (and pot) cold turkey and is getting help, i don't want that to fall by the wayside if we go to plan b. i feel like she'll see that we're staying together and move on.
No, she won't move on seeing you are staying together. That means nothing to her.
You can handle Plan A for THREE WEEKS. Don't take it longer than that.
Did you read my suggestions for exposure?
I think you are going to have a much harder time saving this marriage than most, I am sorry to say. Your H has drug and gambling addictions, doesn't he? Is he also an alcoholic?
so for the steps to take right now: exposure -> stay in plan a (unless he gets pissed and leaves)
You would move to Plan B if he won't agree to your conditions. I would expose the affair everywhere and present him with a list of conditions he has to meet. These conditions would be extraordinary precautions to prevent another affair. We can help you with this list of conditions.
-> move to plan b if any contact occurs after that
Move to Plan B if he can't PROVE contact has ended and he won't adhere to your conditions.
Can you go read my exposure thread and start preparing your exposure strategy? Come back and post it and we can give you feedback.
Does he work with this skank? How did he meet her?
no, he's not an alcoholic - it's pot and gambling. he's given them both up before and he feels much better in general when they're gone. he's been self-destructing since the affair.
i'm still not sure about the proof - at this time, he swears there's no contact, there's nothing on the phone records and i track him on gps all day long, i see every stop and for how long. how else could he prove it?
he's also agreed to all my conditions thus far - i have access to cell phone and business records, track him thru his phone and he leaves the location services "on" (he's unaware of car tracking), i have the passwords to all email accounts, cell phone, all bank accounts, credit cards and a key to his office. he accounts for all of his time. i feel like we're on the right track at *this* moment, but worried about it starting up again. she just got back in town yesterday and this will be the first time with her around that i've had all my tracking in place.
i have read up on exposure. i wish i had read all of it on d-day. i've started preparing a list and how to contact each person.
she works for his best friend, they met thru him.
she works for his best friend, they met thru him.
Didn't they use this "friends" house as a hoe house to carry on the affair?
What about leisure time? Are you spending all your leisure time together? What about opposite sex friendships? What does he do for a living? How close does this hoe live to you?
Put spyware on his phone. Have you checked for a secret phone?
When are you going to complete exposure? Especially on OW's side?
i'm still not sure about the proof - at this time, he swears there's no contact, there's nothing on the phone records and i track him on gps all day long, i see every stop and for how long. how else could he prove it?
You do understand him swearing there is no contact is meaningless, right? If he is having an affair, he will swear there is no contact because he doesn't want to get caught.
MelodyLane,
The WH has NOT written an NC letter but claims to have broken contact.
Honey,
Please ask your WH to write the NC letter that you approve and send. There is absolutely no reason why he hasn't done this yet, a goodbye phone call just does not cut it. There are good examples of NC letters on here I am sure someone can post a link for you.
As far as everything else goes I agree with the vets, you need to expose the affair including targeting the OW boyfriend and family.
My advice is to write a final letter in a way that the victimized spouse would agree to send it. It should begin with a statement of how selfish it was to cause those they loved so much pain, and while marital reconciliation cannot completely repay the offense, it's the right thing to do. A statement should be made about how much the unfaithful spouse cares about his spouse and family, and for their protection, has decided to completely end the relationship with the lover. He or she has promised never to see or communicate with the lover again in life, and asks the lover to respect that promise. Nothing should be said about how much the lover will be missed. After the letter is written, the victimized spouse should read and approve it before it is sent
[from SAA, page 58]
OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.
Sincerely, XXXXX
He and OW are both attorneys.
Honey7: You might want to check to see if he has a secret cellphone stashed somewhere...like in his car.
Didn't they use this "friends" house as a hoe house to carry on the affair?
no, they were getting hotel rooms. the best friend is obsessed with her and my WH didn't want him to know about them. i read a text from the best friend after he walked in on them at his house - WH was staying there when we separated in Dec.
What about leisure time? Are you spending all your leisure time together? What about opposite sex friendships? What does he do for a living? How close does this hoe live to you?
we are spending almost all leisure time together. honestly, i'm not sure if i'm supposed to be spending time with my girlfriends or not. i've read conflicting things on this site. i'm hesitant to go out for dinner with friends, i'm trying to just meet for coffee and such. he also does small things with friends here and there - right now he was watching the soccer game at a pub and i can see him there on gps.
we've both always felt that opposite sex friendships were inappropriate, his affair started as a friendship that he kept hidden.
he's an attorney in private practice.
i've been told that she lives a couple cities (about 20 min) away, but there may be a chance that she lives in the same city (with her boyfriend).
Put spyware on his phone. Have you checked for a secret phone?
i'm trying to figure out which one is best, i'll have limited access to the phone, any ideas?
When are you going to complete exposure? Especially on OW's side? not sure. i'll have some prep to do, plus i may have to do plan b prep simultaneously since he may leave. being a sahm with extremely little money right now complicates things.
________________________
You do understand him swearing there is no contact is meaningless, right? If he is having an affair, he will swear there is no contact because he doesn't want to get caught.
yes, exactly. i wouldn't believe him, that's why i'm not sure how he could prove it otherwise?
You might want to check to see if he has a secret cellphone stashed somewhere...like in his car.
i drive the car several times a week, i've gone thru every nook and cranny
so a NC letter would be after exposure as part of the list of conditions? is there a list of conditions on the site somewhere?
When you ask him to write a NC and he doesn't or tries to avoid it. Then that is a huge red flag.
Honey
As he is so familiar with MB and the principals just ask him today for the NC letter, there is no reason to delay.
is there a list of conditions on the site somewhere?
The Aftermath
When things die down somewhat, it is important that you present a PLAN to your WS for recovery. The next step is to lead your marriage out of the ditch.
First step is to DEMAND your spouse end the affair.
Granted, there are situations when demands may be necessary in marriage. During a spouse's affair, for example, I recommend that the betrayed spouse demand there be no contact with the lover. If there is continued contact, separation or even divorce would be the logical consequence. While normally demands don't work, in this case there are no reasonable alternatives because thoughtful requests are even less likely to separate lovers."
Ask him/her to send a no contact letter to the OP that is written together, approved by you and mailed together. [template below from SAA]
Set her down and explain to her that you want to have a romantic, loving, SAFE marriage and that you won�t stay in a loveless marriage. Tell her you are willing to give her an opportunity to earn your forgiveness. In order for the marriage to recover, certain things have to happen. This is what it will take to keep you interested:
1. end all contact with the OM for life
2. no more nights apart or going out without each other - create a healthy, integrated lifestyle
3. complete transparency - cell phone passwords, etc
4. no more opposite sex friendships
5. complete honesty about her affair<s> � passing a polygraph
6. commit to the Marriage Builders program for recovery as outlined in the book Surviving an Affair.
Tell her "this is what it will take to keep me in this marriage." Whether your marriage ends up with success or failure will depend almost entirely on her willingness and ability to make radical changes. Her lifestyle must become absolutely transparent, holding nothing back. She is in no position to negotiate when it comes to extraordinary precautions, because those precautions are designed to prevent another affair and help you feel safe. She must also meet your emotional needs in a way that until now she has failed. Unless she makes a 180 degree turn in her approach to what it means to be a wife, your marriage won't recover, it will be a crippled version of your pre-affair marriage.
You have nothing to lose and everything to gain by taking this approach, because if she won't do these things, you will have lost nothing except a loveless, abusive marriage.
Unless you use this program to create a much better marriage than the one you had before the affair, you are likely looking at repeat affairs. So don't even think you can get away with sweeping the affair under the rug and going back to what you had before. What you had before led to the affair!
we are spending almost all leisure time together. honestly, i'm not sure if i'm supposed to be spending time with my girlfriends or not. i've read conflicting things on this site. i'm hesitant to go out for dinner with friends, i'm trying to just meet for coffee and such. he also does small things with friends here and there - right now he was watching the soccer game at a pub and i can see him there on gps.
I would spend ALL your leisure time together. You can't afford to be squandering this time on friends. Its ok to have lunch or coffee with a girlfriend, but your time together is too valuable to waste it on friends.
i've been told that she lives a couple cities (about 20 min) away, but there may be a chance that she lives in the same city (with her boyfriend).
So how can you know if he seeing her or not if you don't know where she lives? I would find out where she lives when you call her boyfriend and expose the affair. I would also expose to her family members.
Put spyware on his phone. Have you checked for a secret phone?
i'm trying to figure out which one is best, i'll have limited access to the phone, any ideas?
eblaster and flexispy are good spyware programs. Eblaster is at spectorsoft.com and flexispy is flexispy.com.
When are you going to complete exposure? Especially on OW's side? not sure. i'll have some prep to do, plus i may have to do plan b prep simultaneously since he may leave. being a sahm with extremely little money right now complicates things.
You don't need to worry about Plan B right this second. If he has ended contact like you say, that won't be an issue. He won't leave over exposure if he is serious about recovering your marriage. Anger over exposure is a sign of the fog. It is doubtful he will leave. That would surprise me.
thank you all so much for your help
As he is so familiar with MB and the principals just ask him today for the NC letter, there is no reason to delay
i just did, he's fine with it. we're going to work on it this weekend.
I would spend ALL your leisure time together. You can't afford to be squandering this time on friends. Its ok to have lunch or coffee with a girlfriend, but your time together is too valuable to waste it on friends.
great, that's what i've been thinking.
i'm still scared about telling the BF - he's just a boyfriend, he's a macho type guy - he'll leave her and my WH will feel sorry for her. if he's fence sitting, he'll go to her.
i'm still scared about telling the BF - he's just a boyfriend, he's a macho type guy - he'll leave her and my WH will feel sorry for her. if he's fence sitting, he'll go to her.
Yes, that is where you should start. This exposure will show you how serious your husband is about recovery. If he is serious, he won't mind at all. Your husband can't recover unless his victim is told what he did to him.
There is something VERY WRONG here if your husband objects to this exposure. It can only mean he is protecting the affair, so don't worry about exposure.
1. how long married? Are you married?
2. any children? how old?
3. is this your first marriage? His?
4. any affairs in either of your pasts?
1. how long married? Are you married? married for 11 yrs, together for 17
2. any children? how old? 2 kids, ages 6 + 8
3. is this your first marriage? His? first marriage for both of us - we've been together since we were 22
4. any affairs in either of your pasts? no known affairs. i can be pretty jealous and possessive and not once in all this time have i snooped around, i never expected this of him.
the only way of contacting the boyfriend is thru facebook and she knows that i found out who her boyfriend is thru facebook and she closed her friends list. i'm worried that she may have changed his email address on his facebook account because she knows i was planning to tell him. i guess i should also contact his family then because they would definitely tell him? i can offer him evidence, but in the event that wants to see it, what should i show him? i have to be careful what i show because then my WH will know about the programs i'm using to pull info from his phone. i have deleted text messages and naked pictures of her. i also have a receipt for airline tickets (my WH knows that). i guess i'll go with that and the cell phone records.
2. any children? how old? 2 kids, ages 6 + 8
3. is this your first marriage? His? first marriage for both of us - we've been together since we were 22
4. any affairs in either of your pasts? no known affairs. i can be pretty jealous and possessive and not once in all this time have i snooped around, i never expected this of him.
Thanks for answering, honey. Hopefully you can see now that not snooping is not healthy for either of you. If you had snooped sooner, you might have been able to kill the affair before it started. Snooping helps you hold him accountable. It is not a lack of trust that ruins marriages, but a lack of boundaries.
Dr Harley would also suggest that you tell your children about your husbands affair.
Dr. Harley on telling the children:
The same can be said about telling children about an affair. My experience with the positive outcomes of hundreds of families where an affair has been exposed to children has led me to encourage a betrayed spouse not to fear such exposure. In fact, to mislead children, giving other false explanations as to why their parents are not getting along, causes children to be very confused. When they finally discover the truth, it sets an example to children that dishonesty is sometimes acceptable, making them the judge of when that might occur.
An affair is an attack on children as well as the betrayed spouse. And it's true that children are deeply affected by this form of irresponsible behavior. But it's the act of infidelity that causes children to suffer, not the exposure of it. Facts point us toward solutions. Illusion leads us astray. That's true for children as well as adults.
Q: So, you do suggest telling our 10 year old son? Is this more than he can handle? He never saw any real unhappiness as my husband and I had a very low conflict marriage. I have been protecting our son from this truth. He still has hope that his dad is going to come home.
___________________________________
A: As for your son, the truth will come out eventually, even if you get back together again. And your son won't be emotionally crippled if he hears the truth. It's lies and deception that cripple children. He should know that your husband is choosing his lover over his son's mother. It's a fact. He's willing to ruin a family unit all for what.
When I first started recommending openness about an affair, I wasn't sure what would happen. But I did it because I knew it was the right thing to do. Now I know that for most couples it marks the beginning of recovery.
The reason that children should know about an affair is that exposing it to the light of day (letting everyone know), helps give the unfaithful spouse a dose of reality. An affair thrives on illusion, and whatever a betrayed spouse can do to eliminate the illusion is justifiable. Mold doesn't grow well in sunlight.
2. How honest should I be about the A? (they are 7 and under)
Tell your children as much as you can about their father's affair, and how it affects you. There are some counselors and lawyers that strongly disagree with me on this issue, but I have maintained that position for over 35 years without any evidence that children are hurt by it. They're hurt by the affair, not by accurate information regarding the affair. Just make sure that you don't combine accurate information with disrespectful judgments. For example, you can say that the OW has taken their father away from you, but you should not say that she is home-wrecker (or worse).
My basic approach to life is that radical honesty is valuable on many different dimensions. It keeps us out of trouble, it helps others understand us, and it helps others avoid the same mistakes we have made. Letting your children know the details of your husband's affair would help them in all three areas.
The more your children know about your husband's affair, the more careful he will be to avoid them in the future.
The more your children know about his affair, the more they will understand what you are going through in your recovery (by the way, you are doing very well -- keep up the good work!).
Being radically honest about your husband's affair with your children would also help them avoid affairs themselves. How it happened and how could it have been prevented is a great object lesson for children. I learned that I was vulnerable for an affair when I learned about my grandfather's affairs. The extraordinary precautions I've taken were directly related to what I learned about him.
It's the approach I've always taken, and while it's difficult, especially for the WS, there's much more upside to it than downside.
You said at the beginning of your thread that you had a brief affair in December of last year. Have you been exposed to friends and family? What are your H's thoughts on this?
4. any affairs in either of your pasts? no known affairs. i can be pretty jealous and possessive and not once in all this time have i snooped around, i never expected this of him.
honey,
Didn't you say you had an affair in Nov, 2012?
I had my own brief affair back in Nov 2012 (lasted 3 weeks) and that I completely understood what he was going through (the fantasy, thinking they're the "soulmate", believing you married the wrong person, etc). I totally got it!
And this.
- My AP was my personal trainer. I left my gym and have cut all contact with him. I'm completely out of my fog.
friends on both sides and my family know. really, it's just his parents that don't know. they're elderly, middle eastern, they would probably encourage him to leave. as it is, my mil blames me and says if i took care of my marriage this wouldn't have happened.
my WH is mostly upset that i actually had sex with someone else (it was only once). he has a hard time with it, but we both feel like we can easily move past what has happened in the past (we were both in a fog simultaneously) and what matters most is what happens from here on out.
Didn't you say you had an affair in Nov, 2012?
yes. since i acknowledged that here, i was answering the question as if it were "other affairs in our pasts".
the only way of contacting the boyfriend is thru facebook and she knows that i found out who her boyfriend is thru facebook and she closed her friends list. i'm worried that she may have changed his email address on his facebook account because she knows i was planning to tell him. i guess i should also contact his family then because they would definitely tell him? i can offer him evidence, but in the event that wants to see it, what should i show him? i have to be careful what i show because then my WH will know about the programs i'm using to pull info from his phone. i have deleted text messages and naked pictures of her. i also have a receipt for airline tickets (my WH knows that). i guess i'll go with that and the cell phone records.
Can't you call him at home or at work? Have you looked up his address on whitepages.com?
And yes, I would show him any evidence that you have, but the best evidence you have is your husbands admission.
Also, I would not forewarn your H before you expose his affair.
can someone point me to the nc letter samples? i'm running out and can't find them.
can someone point me to the nc letter samples? i'm running out and can't find them.
I posted this already to you.
My advice is to write a final letter in a way that the victimized spouse would agree to send it. It should begin with a statement of how selfish it was to cause those they loved so much pain, and while marital reconciliation cannot completely repay the offense, it's the right thing to do. A statement should be made about how much the unfaithful spouse cares about his spouse and family, and for their protection, has decided to completely end the relationship with the lover. He or she has promised never to see or communicate with the lover again in life, and asks the lover to respect that promise. Nothing should be said about how much the lover will be missed. After the letter is written, the victimized spouse should read and approve it before it is sent
[from SAA, page 58]
OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.
Sincerely, XXXXX
mimi,
Did your affair occur before your WH's, I'm a bit unsure. Have you given your BH complete disclosure?
What exposure was done on the OM, does he still work for the heath club, or did your BH get him fired, frankly your BH should go after his license?
God Bless
Gamma
Did your affair occur before your WH's, I'm a bit unsure. Have you given your BH complete disclosure?
my WH's affair was already a year in when i had my affair. yes, i've given him absolutely every detail. i left the gym and told my AP that i told WH. my WH is free to do as he wishes with regards to my AP, i'm not protecting him.
thank you for the NC letter, i knew if was in here but i couldn't find it. they have mutual friends that they discuss each other with, i plan to add a line about not contacting those friends for updates. we discussed emailing it to her - i'm thinking i should be cc'd on it?
Did you expose his affair?
thank you for the NC letter, i knew if was in here but i couldn't find it. they have mutual friends that they discuss each other with, i plan to add a line about not contacting those friends for updates. we discussed emailing it to her - i'm thinking i should be cc'd on it?
You're welcome.
You should read and approve it before he sends it out. Yes it would also be good that she see that you're cc'd on it.
Then your WH needs to change all contact information and you should block her email address also. She may try and contact you.
Better yet, mailing it to her certified is even better. Then you know she received it.
How is exposing on OW's side coming along? Did you find her family on FB?
thank you for the NC letter, i knew if was in here but i couldn't find it. they have mutual friends that they discuss each other with, i plan to add a line about not contacting those friends for updates. we discussed emailing it to her - i'm thinking i should be cc'd on it?
Mimi, I wouldn't say anything about her talking to those friends. [you guys can't control that so it is unrealistic to ask] Rather, your husband needs to drop any mutual friends. Neither of you should hang with anyone who hangs with her.
I would mail it to her home TOGETHER. Put it in an envelope and drive to the post office and mail it to her.
Is your OM married?
mimi,
You wrote,i'm not protecting him.
Yes but what have you done to expose the OM or at the very least get him fired from the position of trust he does not have the professional ethics to deserve.
While I would agree that your WHs offenses are much greater than yours, you still need to do your share to give your BH just compensation for what you have done. This is cleaning up your side of the street.
There is something particularly revolting btw about conceited and in shape male trainers. I've found them often to be scientific illiterates who think they have some intuition for medicine and nutrition.
Your BH may never feel that he can be attractive to you again as a result of the contrast between BH and this "trainer".
God Bless
Gamma
i couldn't find sample letters for the AP's spouse ( i know they'r here somewhere).
this is what i have so far, i wasn't sure how much info to give.
Dear xxxx,
My name is xxxx, I am the wife of xxxx. I am writing to let you know that xxxx and xxxx have been having an affair for at least a year and a half. I found out about the affair on March 19th and they are both aware that I know. I'm sorry I didn't contact you sooner.
My husband and I have been married for 11 years and have 2 young children. We both love each other very much and intend to repair our marriage from this disaster. Doing so, would require that xxxx and xxxx no longer have any contact, the past 2 months have proved that to be difficult.
Feel free to contact me if you wish to discuss further. I can also share any evidence that I have with you.
Sincerely,
xxxxx
If you wish to contact me, my email address is xxxxxxxx or you can call me at xxxxxxx
is there a good sample letter for her parents? i think her mom knows already and encouraged her because my WH is much more successful than her BF. i want to be sure to convey to them that this was an intact family with young children that she would be destroying. (would you want your daughter to be labeled a homewrecker?)
Mimi, it is a good idea to CALL the SO of the affair partner, especially when there is an OW involved. OW are devious cats and have been known to intercept many exposure letters and RESPOND as if they are the betrayed spouse. When that happens, they are forewarned and will take steps to block access. You need to strike hard the first time and get through directly to him.
I don't have a specific letter for an OW Mom, but you can use any of the templates and just fashion it for your situation. If she has a facebook page, I would hit her other relatives and some married friends, too.
i've tried and tried, he has such a generic hispanic name that i can't find a phone number. i'm going to send it thru facebook - BUT i'm also sending it to his sisters. the letter for her parents, i can either hand deliver (risky, she works nearby) or mail.
unfortunately, she knew i was checking her fb page and locked all friends lists and photos - i can only get thru to one friend. i will be texting her co-workers as well since they know my WH.
i'm not sure though, what to do for my WH's side. everyone knows at this point. his old boss, who he respects, left his own wife for another woman (they're still married) - would these people knowing be helpful?
this is what i have for her parents: good or bad?
Dear xxxx and xxxx,
My name is xxxxx and I am writing to let you know that your daughter, xxxxx, has been having an affair with my husband, xxxxxx, for a year and a half.
We have been married for 11 years and have 2 young children, ages 6 and 8. Contrary to what may have been thought, at no point were my husband and I planning to divorce. We love each and our family very much and it was not until xxxxx entered our lives that we started having problems in our marriage.
My husband and I are going to stay together and work through this devastation that has taken place. In order to do so, xxxxx must stay away from my husband and no longer contact him. We would appreciate if you could encourage her to not have any contact with him and convey to her that the life of a homewrecker is not what you intend for your daughter.
If you wish to contact me, you can email me at xxxxxxx or call me at xxxxxx
Thank You,
xxxxxxx
i'm not sure though, what to do for my WH's side. everyone knows at this point. his old boss, who he respects, left his own wife for another woman (they're still married) - would these people knowing be helpful?
You never know who will be helpful. If you use the talking points and ask them for help, they may come through for you. It can't hurt to give them the facts and ask for help. His old boss sounds like a real creep. That is a relationship I would seriously consider cutting out of your lives. Anyone who doesn't support your marriage can be toxic to your marriage.
this is what i have for her parents: good or bad?
Dear xxxx and xxxx,
My name is xxxxx and I am writing to let you know that your daughter, xxxxx, has been having an affair with my husband, xxxxxx, for a year and a half.
We have been married for 11 years and have 2 young children, ages 6 and 8. Contrary to what may have been thought, at no point were my husband and I planning to divorce. We love each other and our family very much and this affair has caused untold heartbreak to our family. it was not until xxxxx entered our lives that we started having problems in our marriage.
My husband and I are going to stay together and work through this devastation that has taken place. In order to do so, xxxxx must stay away from my husband and no longer contact him. We would appreciate if you could encourage her to not have any contact with him and convey to her that the life of a homewrecker is not what you intend for your daughter.
If you wish to contact me, you can email me at xxxxxxx or call me at xxxxxx
Thank You,
xxxxxxx
That is great! I made some slight changes above. You don't want to even bring up any rumors about divorce, etc.
thanks!
You don't want to even bring up any rumors about divorce, etc.
i added that because she told her mom that she's dating someone who's getting a divorce and her mom encouraged her because she doesn't like the current BF.
WH wrote a great NC letter and we sent it last night. I was worried that he was just going to call her today and say that I put him up to it, but he spent an hour writing it when he could've just used the form letter that i gave him.
just curious - if if were to discover, say, this week, that they were having contact and i went ahead with a far and wide exposure. would i also plan b him at the same time? this wouldn't be the first time that he said they weren't having contact and i found out that they were. he could just swear no contact again and i'd still be in plan a limbo checking up on his every move. could be dangerous to go to straight plan b because her boyfriend would prob move out and my WH could move right in. do i give him a chance to get it together again after a full exposure (all his side already knows) or try to really get thru to him with a plan b (i think it'll scare the crap out of him).
also, what happens if you do really thorough plan b (change locks, move his stuff out without him knowing, etc) and the next day he says he'll agree to everything to come back - do you let him? is there a plan b minimum?
How are the exposures going??
need help fast! exposures done - everyone is pissed! wh is on his way home, says he's moving out and wants a divorce. do i let him decide to stay or go (he may calm done by the time he gets here) or tell him to leave and go plan b???
and for the record, they really weren't having any contact for the past couple of weeks.
Mimi,
I asked you if you exposed the OM, the reason being is that it will seem unfair to your BH/WH if you exposed BH/OW without exposing OM/yourself.
There has been no downside for OM!
God Bless
Gamma
his bosses and co workers know about me - he has no contact to family and i wouldn't track down his kids and tell them. that's a whole 'nother can of worms. i found out, after the fact, that the trainer has been doing this for years and that 6 years ago, a woman was leaving her husband for him and the husband killed her while their kids were sleeping, he then went to jail and hung himself in jai, the kids were left without parents - i found this out about a month ago. it's common knowledge, his bosses and most of the gym members know, i just never found out.
need help fast! exposures done - everyone is pissed! wh is on his way home, says he's moving out and wants a divorce. do i let him decide to stay or go (he may calm done by the time he gets here) or tell him to leave and go plan b???
and for the record, they really weren't having any contact for the past couple of weeks.
Good job on exposure.
Who did you expose to?
All waywards are angry after exposure.
Put your best Plan A on and get your typical responses ready. "Sorry you're angry hun, but I will not live with 3 people in our marriage. Would you like a cookie?"
he never came home - i tracked him to an airport and it looks like they took off together on the first flight. i sent him this text in response to him moving out - "I'm sorry to hear that you're moving out. I was under the impression that our marriage and the family we made meant something to you. Would you like me to start packing your things?" - no response.
i exposed to her boyfriend, his family, her coworkers and her parents. everyone on my wh's side knows, but i was thinking of sending them all an official email - this will get them all on the phone with him right away. i'm still not sure about those friends and coworkers that he doesn't see all that often - should i contact them???
i'm waiting to see where they land - i think they just flew an hour away and i'm assuming they'll stay the weekend. now do i go to plan b?? seems like the logical next step. i'm not thinking so clearly right now and i'll need to rally some people to come help me get started packing, changing locks and get someone to take my kids for the weekend.
i jumped to conclusions - it appears that he went to vegas with a guy friend. i know the guy friend is pressuring him to work on his marriage, so i guess i'll see what his state of mind is when he comes back.
i'm waiting to see where they land - i think they just flew an hour away and i'm assuming they'll stay the weekend. now do i go to plan b?? seems like the logical next step. i'm not thinking so clearly right now and i'll need to rally some people to come help me get started packing, changing locks and get someone to take my kids for the weekend.
Yes I would send a follow up email to his family about their weekend getaway.
Yes let's get you into Plan B.
Have you seen this?
[url=http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2482787#Post2482787]How to Plan B Correctly[/url
i jumped to conclusions - it appears that he went to vegas with a guy friend. i know the guy friend is pressuring him to work on his marriage, so i guess i'll see what his state of mind is when he comes back.
Ok just saw this.
How do you know he's with the guy friend?
the friend let me know he was with him. the friend (his best friend, her boss) was part of this mornings debacle (i demanded that he get my husbands office keys that she refused to give up) and sent me a text basically saying that i effed up and that it wasn't sure he would be able to fix this, but that he would try. he was planning on leaving for vegas today and my WH went with him.
WH and i were supposed to leave town for the weekend and now i'm going to go with a girlfriend
i'd love some advice before he comes back, it's so confusing knowing how to proceed.
i'm not responding to his texts, but he sent one last night saying that he's coming by on monday to pack his things. do i start pre-packing or gathering his things to show that i'm ok with him going ? and not just sitting her hoping that he'll stay. should i be at home or not when he comes by to pack? i've started some plan b prep - do i give him the letter when he's here or get it to him after?
i am planning on sending the letter to his family members after he leaves on monday - the usual exposure letter with the added "he has left the home now".
,mimi, I am confused. Did you expose the affair to all your exposure targets?
Mimi,
If you already exposed to everyone, then why do you need to send a letter?
As far as your situation goes, you have no control over your H's actions. If he wants to leave you begging, pleading, crying etc... is not going to change his mind.
My suggestion is that you calmly explain to your H that you exposed not to hurt him or get back at him but to save your marriage and start recovery. That one of the consequences of an affair is that it affects the people around you and they have a right to know.
He may or may not change his mind. You just need to keep telling him and yourself that you did not do this to hurt him but to save your marriage.
One thing that is still bothering me however is the question about whether or not you exposed your own affair. It does seem very hypocritical for you to expose your H far and wide and not yourself.
Mimi,
One thing that is still bothering me however is the question about whether or not you exposed your own affair. It does seem very hypocritical for you to expose your H far and wide and not yourself.
Please consider what 15 years has said, if this "personal trainer" is the monster you have described, then why is he still working in that profession? I suggest you threaten a lawsuit.
Because in spite of what your WH has done you still have to compensate him for what you did. Otherwise it's like saying he stole from me and then I stole from him, it doesn't help as you are both still thieves.
God Bless
Gamma
That is nonsense, Gamma. Her affair is long over. She is exposing his affair right now in order to stop it. Her affair was over and was exposed so I view your comments as an ill-timed distraction. The issue at hand is HER HUSBANDS AFFAIR.
She is in the process of trying to kill her husbands affair and now is not the time to address her long dead affair.
Just compensation has nothing to do with getting an OP fired. NOTHING.
And maybe it will be appropriate to expose the OM to his employer, but that is not the issue at hand right now. It is a matter of timing and now is not the time to focus on past issues when she is dealing a crisis in the PRESENT.
mimi, I am confused. Did you expose the affair to all your exposure targets?
his family already knows (parents, brothers + their wives). he told his mom that he was seeing someone (prepping them for leaving me) back in december. he and i have also discussed it with his brothers. there was no sense in sending them any additional letters because a. they already knew and b. he wasn't having contact with her at this point. if i were to send anything to them now, it would be because he left home and for them to urge him to work on our recovery.
my WH was actually doing a good job of giving up his gambling and pot, seeing an addiction therapist and going to GA meetings. he wrote an awesome NC letter and because of reading his deleted texts. i know that he wasn't having any contact with her because i found out that he was trying to get her boss to get back his office keys that she was refusing to give them up. this is what pushed me to expose her to her family + friends, because she still seems to not 'get it' and know where her boundaries are and i knew it would be a matter of time before she'd be trying to get him back. this is a woman who moved to be closer to my WH's office (i think), who when i got breast implants early last year, then she went and got them (much bigger!). she would show up at events where she knew i was going to be with my daughter, etc.
i do think i need to make it clear to him that i did this to protect us and not to hurt him. to him and all his friends, this is just looking like revenge. and he says i must not love him because her boyfriend is going to come beat him up.
now on to my situation - i've said multiple times in this thread that my affair has been exposed to my AP's bosses, coworkers and gym friends. i told my AP when i left that i told my husband and when i left i told my friends why i was leaving and eventually everyone found out - i wasn't keeping a secret. he did have a girlfriend at the time, someone he had been with for 6 months and i'm not sure who she is (i actually think there's several). this is someone who i knew for a year, went out with 3 times, talked on the phone with him less than 10 times and slept with once. my affair ended last nov and my AP hasn't tried to contact once! he avoids me like the plague. my WH has seen me happily run from that situation. my dedication to my WH and our recovery has been shocking to him. the problem is that he is just kicking back enjoying us 2 women fighting over him and he's not putting in the effort. he just wants to forget about the whole thing and move on and i want to completely rebuild and create an amazing marriage. i feel like i'm dragging him along. ever since d-day he's seen me fight for our marriage and him, seeing that i won't let him go and he's taking me for granted. i need him to see that i will move along without him if he's not 100% dedicated to fixing this.
again, any advice on what i should do re monday??? wait to see if he shows up and starts packing? or go ahead and load his stuff in a uhaul and change the locks? i went ahead with the exposure, i'm completely clueless on what to do next and i'm not finding the guidance that i need.
another thought - if my WH does calm down by monday and decide to stay, i could offer him the choice of writing his own exposure letter to my AP's bosses, girlfriend (if i can confirm who she is), etc.
That does not make any sense that he would leave because you exposed the affair to the OW's boyfriend UNLESS the affair is still active. The only reason he would care about that is if was still having his affair.
Where is the OW this weekend? Can you call the OW BF and find out where she is?
Why is your H gone??
need help fast! exposures done - everyone is pissed! wh is on his way home, says he's moving out and wants a divorce. do i let him decide to stay or go (he may calm done by the time he gets here) or tell him to leave and go plan b???
and for the record, they really weren't having any contact for the past couple of weeks.
HOW did your husband know of your exposures? Who informed him? Did you get ahold of the OW BF?
Mimi,
now on to my situation - i've said multiple times in this thread that my affair has been exposed to my AP's bosses, coworkers and gym friends.
Yes but is he still working as a trainer, this OM is a like a priest, camp counselor or medical professional, in that they are persons in a position of trust who should be should not be getting personal with clients. He needs to be shut down and yes you should track down his children.e
Since you WH/BH is a lawyer he should sue the gym and OM out of existence.
God Bless
Gamma
Mimi,
now on to my situation - i've said multiple times in this thread that my affair has been exposed to my AP's bosses, coworkers and gym friends.
Yes but is he still working as a trainer, this OM is a like a priest, camp counselor or medical professional, in that they are persons in a position of trust who should be should not be getting personal with clients. He needs to be shut down and yes you should track down his children.e
Since you WH/BH is a lawyer he should sue the gym and OM out of existence.
God Bless
Gamma
Do you mind???
That does not make any sense that he would leave because you exposed the affair to the OW's boyfriend UNLESS the affair is still active. The only reason he would care about that is if was still having his affair.
that's why i'm wondering if i should wait to see monday if he really is leaving. he said twice yesterday by text that he is - but i expected that reaction because he was so mad. maybe it just makes me look like a crazy [censored] out for revenge and he thinks he should leave because i'm nuts. his friends are all having the same reaction (i've listened to their vm's). i'm partially thinking that he'll change his mind by the time he comes home monday or that he's just bluffing to begin with to try to freak me out. won't know until he comes home. my issue is that i don't want him to come back and still not put in the effort, i kinda feel like plan b will wake him up to fight for me. right now he thinks i can't live without him and that he has the upper hand.
Where is the OW this weekend? Can you call the OW BF and find out where she is?
no idea, wish i could find out. she changed her fb picture to one of her and her bf. nobody on her side responded to exp letters, except her paralegal who sent a nasty response. i don't feel like i can contact him now and it would just get back to my WH that i was checking up. he's in vegas with her boss and another mutual friend. if my WH isn't communicating with her, then they are because he sent me a text last night saying that "everyone now knows, mission accomplished. you can stop now"
my husband being gone - we were supposed to leave town, we were packed. he met up with his friend (her boss) when all this was happening, who was also getting ready to drive to vegas and i'm assuming that his friend encouraged him to go to blow off steam and stay away from me. the friend sent me a text that he's trying to 'fix this'.
no idea, wish i could find out. she changed her fb picture to one of her and her bf. nobody on her side responded to exp letters, except her paralegal who sent a nasty response. i don't feel like i can contact him now and it would just get back to my WH that i was checking up. he's in vegas with her boss and another mutual friend. if my WH isn't communicating with her, then they are because he sent me a text last night saying that "everyone now knows, mission accomplished. you can stop now"
I would contact her BF today and ask where the OW is. The only possible reason your H would be angry about exposing this affair is if the affair was still active.
Do you understand this? A truly remorseful would not care.
Telling the OW's BF would be a priority for a truly remorseful person. But your husband is so angry he has left you??
There is something very wrong here and I don't think you understand what is really going on.
i don't feel like i can contact him now and it would just get back to my WH that i was checking up.
Another confusing comment. Why would it be a problem for you to check up on your husband?? What is WRONG with contacting the OWBF unless the affair is still active and he has something to hide?
You see, it makes no sense for your husband to be angry about exposing his affair to the OWBF UNLESS the affair is still active.
You don't GET that his reaction to this exposure is a huge RED FLAG, do you?
i do get it, but at the same time, even if he had ceased contact, i still would expect him to be mad. he claims that he led her on to think he was leaving me for her and when that didn't work out, he didn't want to ruin her current relationship. just like when i first left the gym where my AP worked, i didn't want my WH to confront him. i felt bad bringing my issues into his life. now that i'm more removed from that, i have no issue with my husband going over there.
my husbands friends were convinced that he had ended it with her and they are all equally outraged at what i've done - and my husband was in court when it all went down and it was his friend who found out first and called me all in a huff, he found out before my WH did.
i will message the boyfriend now. i'm not expecting any response tho.
No, you don't get it AT ALL. The reason he did not want the boyfriend to know is because that door was STILL OPEN. He wanted to leave the door open.
A person who is truly repentant would WANT his victim to know what he did. Your husband wanted to continue to TRICK the boyfriend for his own selfish purposes.
he didn't want to ruin her current relationship.
So he had an affair with her because he didn't want to ruin her relationship??
Did you burst out laughing when he said that?
my husbands friends were convinced that he had ended it with her and they are all equally outraged at what i've done
This is because he has surrounded himself with other cheaters. They all understand the value of lying and covering up an affair.
i will message the boyfriend now. i'm not expecting any response tho.
You need to take a more serious approach than that! Do you have their address? If so, drive to their house and knock on the door.
i do get it, but at the same time, even if he had ceased contact, i still would expect him to be mad. he claims that he led her on to think he was leaving me for her and when that didn't work out, he didn't want to ruin her current relationship. just like when i first left the gym where my AP worked, i didn't want my WH to confront him. i felt bad bringing my issues into his life. now that i'm more removed from that, i have no issue with my husband going over there.
my husbands friends were convinced that he had ended it with her and they are all equally outraged at what i've done - and my husband was in court when it all went down and it was his friend who found out first and called me all in a huff, he found out before my WH did.
i will message the boyfriend now. i'm not expecting any response tho.
Can you get his phone number and call him?
Let's focus on contacting OWBF and then we will worry about the next step Plan B or not.
How was the OW's BF supposed to protect himself from your husband and his creepy GF if no one told him about the affair? How was that "protecting him" to aide and abet the hiding of the affair?
Let me ask you something. If my bookkeeper was embezzling my money would you and your friends choose not to tell me because you "didn't want to ruin my current relationship?"
Would that pass the laugh test?
Would you believe my bookkeeper if she said she didn't want me to know because it would hurt me? Wouldn't you rightly perceive that she doesn't want me to know because she was protecting HERSELF and her STEALING GIG? If I know, then she can't very well steal my money any more.
Surely you can see how insane it is to pretend like tricking the BF was in his best interest. Your H is the last person in the world who is qualified to determine what is in the OWBF's best interest because your husband is THE FOX IN THE HENHOUSE.
That is crazyville, Mimi, and I assert that you are in a very dysfunctional world where up is down and down is up. Your H is a very wayward man who surrounds himself with wayward people.
yes, i do believe the door was being left open
that's my only way of contacting him. no idea on their address. i'm going to wait until tomorrow afternoon to decide whether to pack him up or not. hopefully, i'll know what to do by then.
yes, i do believe the door was being left open
that's my only way of contacting him. no idea on their address. i'm going to wait until tomorrow afternoon to decide whether to pack him up or not. hopefully, i'll know what to do by then.
Do you know the OW's home address?
yes, i do believe the door was being left open
that's my only way of contacting him. no idea on their address. i'm going to wait until tomorrow afternoon to decide whether to pack him up or not. hopefully, i'll know what to do by then.
Do you know his phone number?
Also if you aren't one of his Facebook friends his message will go to his other box. Pay the $1 so you can get the message to his inbox or most likely he won't see it. The Best Plan is to talk to him in person.
they live together - i have no address, no phone number
i sent him a message thru fb and they've changed the system now so that you no longer have the option of paying the $1 - it automatically just goes to their 'other' box. that should work tho since that's how i messaged him yesterday. i don't think he's open to talking to me now, seems like he's in the 'shoot the messenger' phase.
Mimi,
I am going to focus on the question that you keep asking. I think Mel and Brain have been very clear on what you need to to do as far as the Boyfriend goes. Just a thought, your H should in no way be wanting to protect the OW for any reason.
The question you keep asking is if you should pack up for your H or let him pack up himself. You are also asking if you should go into a plan B.
My thoughts are that you should NOT pack up for him but let him pack up himself. See if he is true to his word. I also think that there is NO WAY your marriage will be saved if you don't kill this affair and know for sure that it is dead.
You have taken the first steps by exposing but you and your H have to continue TOGETHER in order to salvage your marriage. Your H needs to show you Just Compensation and be willing to be completely transparent to you from the moment he returns home.
If he is truly sorry and wants to save your marriage he will be willing to do this. He should also understand why you exposed and stop trying to protect her.
In my personal opinion, if he is not willing to do everything listed above, then you definitely should plan B him and not take him back until he is willing to follow MB to a tee!
thank you fifteenyears that helps. total long shot, but i have a brother that lives in vegas, trying to see if he'll stop by the hotel to see if he can find anything.
so maybe have a list of EP's prepared for monday?
The Aftermath
When things die down somewhat, it is important that you present a PLAN to your WS for recovery. The next step is to lead your marriage out of the ditch.
First step is to DEMAND your spouse end.
"Granted, there are situations when demands may be necessary in marriage. During a spouse's affair, for example, I recommend that the betrayed spouse demand there be no contact with the lover. If there is continued contact, separation or even divorce would be the logical consequence. While normally demands don't work, in this case there are no reasonable alternatives because thoughtful requests are even less likely to separate lovers."
Ask him/her to send a no contact letter to the OP that is written together, approved by you and mailed together. [template below from SAA]
Set her down and explain to her that you want to have a romantic, loving, SAFE marriage and that you won�t stay in a loveless marriage. Tell her you are willing to give her an opportunity to earn your forgiveness. In order for the marriage to recover, certain things have to happen. This is what it will take to keep you interested:
1. end all contact with the OM for life
2. no more nights apart or going out without each other - create a healthy, integrated lifestyle
3. complete transparency - cell phone passwords, etc
4. no more opposite sex friendships
5. complete honesty about her affair<s> � passing a polygraph
6. commit to the Marriage Builders program for recovery as outlined in the book Surviving an Affair.
Tell her "this is what it will take to keep me in this marriage." Whether your marriage ends up with success or failure will depend almost entirely on her willingness and ability to make radical changes. Her lifestyle must become absolutely transparent, holding nothing back. She is in no position to negotiate when it comes to extraordinary precautions, because those precautions are designed to prevent another affair and help you feel safe. She must also meet your emotional needs in a way that until now she has failed. Unless she makes a 180 degree turn in her approach to what it means to be a wife, your marriage won't recover, it will be a crippled version of your pre-affair marriage.
You have nothing to lose and everything to gain by taking this approach, because if she won't do these things, you will have lost nothing except a loveless, abusive marriage.
Unless you use this program to create a much better marriage than the one you had before the affair, you are likely looking at repeat affairs. So don't even think you can get away with sweeping the affair under the rug and going back to what you had before. What you had before led to the affair!
so what exactly does it mean to commit to the marriage builders program - follow the book? do the telephone coaching? any other way to follow the program? i like the program, but we'd need some structure to whatever plan we follow.
so what exactly does it mean to commit to the marriage builders program - follow the book? do the telephone coaching? any other way to follow the program? i like the program, but we'd need some structure to whatever plan we follow.
I would do the online program
Courses You're given an accountability coach plus free access to Dr. H on the private boards.
so what exactly does it mean to commit to the marriage builders program - follow the book? do the telephone coaching? any other way to follow the program? i like the program, but we'd need some structure to whatever plan we follow.
There are several ways to do it. If you are disciplined, you can do it yourself using the books, Survivng an Affair, Lovebusters and the workbook, Five Steps to Romantic Love.
You can sign up for the online program where you are assigned a coach, go through several video series and then are guided through a series of lessons. They also have phone coaching with Dr Harley's children, Dr Jennifer Chalmers or Steve Harley.
If you can afford the coaching or even a phone call or two to Steve Harley (I have heard he works wonders with even the most reluctant spouse) I would suggest that.
My H (he was the BS) wanted nothing to do with the actual coaching. We have done the books, the workbooks, and both of us read the forum on a regular basis. We have just learned the basic concepts (see below) and try to instill those in our marriage on a daily basis. We are still a work in progress and still learning and making mistakes. However our marriage is much better than it was.
Basic Concepts that we try to follow
POJA - Discussing every decision together and making sure your spouse enthusiastically agrees with your choice.
UA Time - Spending a minimum of 15 hours together a week (more if you can). This may require you actually penciling in time together. This does not include time with your kids or sitting on the couch watching TV.
O&H -Openness and Honesty. This is something that both my H and I still struggle with. I just realized this week that openness and honesty needs to be present with EVERYTHING. Even the things that are hard or uncomfortable to share.
EPs - Taking Extraordinary precautions in your marriage. Not allowing yourself or your spouse to put themselves in a situation that would allow an affair to happen.
ENs- Learning what each others most important emotional needs are and making sure you are fulfilling those. Being honest with each other and letting each other know if they are not being fulfilled.
That should get you started!
update - so he ended up flying back on sunday night, came straight home and we talked. i had to explain over and over that it wasn't to get back at him or to seek revenge on her, but to create boundaries and i think he gets it now. i guess everyone was freaked out that i actually drove to her parents house and they were scared because i knew their names?? whatever. he says i'm losing my mind and going off the deep end.
there is a good chance that the boyfriend will come after him - i told him he should call and apologize for stealing from him. i gave him my list of conditions and made it clear that i'm not holding on to him any longer, he doesn't comply (with enthusiasm) and he's out. he asked if he could stay and he's taken the past 2 days off of work and we've been spending time together. the locks are being changed at the office tomorrow.
i also gave him all my AP's contact info and the list of contacts and addresses to use for his own exposure. he was planning on it at first, but then decided he's not "crazy" to do something like that.
we're going to do the online program thru marriage builders. anyone know what combination would be the most useful. it's a little confusing, i guess i need to call the 800 number. it looks like the package with the courses, online seminar and accountability coaching would be best?? i'm trying to set up the telephone coaching with steve for 1 or 2 sessions just to get my husband a little more enthused about it. he doesn't quite get that there's steps to recovery.
is there a thread here to get advice on choosing the right combination of the online program/coaching?
i'm wondering if it's better to get the online program without the accountability coach and just do occasional telephone sessions with steve or add the accountability coaching and skip the phone sessions.
I would do the accountability coaching and skip the phone sessions. You will not only have a coach who will hold you accountable and guide you through the program, but you will also have direct access to Dr. Harley himself on the private forum. We found it a lot more effective (we tried it all!).
Mimi, start off with the coaching sessions from Steve to make sure your H is on board. Once he is on board, THEN sign up for the online course, the whole tamale. Get the course that has everything. That is what many of us went through.
BUT, first start by coaching with Steve and let him assess how serious your husband is.
lol! Prisca said the opposite thing! But she does have a good point. If you sign up for the online course you get a coach AND Dr Harley. If your husband needs some straightening out, Dr Harley will do it!
Mimi,
I sounds like your H is serious and wants to help your marriage. I hope these are the first steps to your recovery. Whatever method you choose, keep posting on this forum. This forum has been an amazing asset to my recovery.