Marriage Builders
Posted By: GloveOil call-out: Learning2Cherish, atten-HUT! - 08/12/13 01:30 AM
Yes, Air Force, you're getting called out by a former OM here.

Because it sounds like you & I could have a good conversation, over a virtual coffee, about letting things get too close with a "ministry colleague" (which, I'm sorry to say, I know way too much about firsthand).

Three questions for you:
-- Since when do two wrongs make a right?
-- Is there some part of "no contact" that don't understand?
-- What are you going to do to bring about no-contact?

Look, I'm not here to chew you a new one (even though it sounds like you've earned it, and even though you don't score too much credit for merely getting caught a little further up the slippery slope than I was when my OW & I got caught). I don't get any jollies out of spending scarce free time on a Sunday night just to take verbal potshots at strangers in the virtual world, & for not a dime's worth of compensation to boot. I'm only here to help you guys fix your marriage & make it better, because what you've been lurching through these past few years obviously isn't good enough, is it?

So hit me up, brother.
Posted By: markos Re: call-out: Learning2Cherish, atten-HUT! - 08/12/13 02:02 AM
Good post, GO. I'll find his thread and pass you a link. I posted there the other night hoping to get his attention. Have you seen him logged in?
Posted By: markos Re: call-out: Learning2Cherish, atten-HUT! - 08/12/13 02:04 AM
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=165287&Number=2573067#Post2573067
GloveOil & markos

Thank you, gentlemen, for reaching out to me.

Thank you for all you have been doing to support FF in her "things I never thought of" thread. I read through that trail of posts tonight--FF specifically gave me permission to do so. She made me aware of the fact that you two were reaching out to me and asked me to come post. So here I am.

I screwed up and I know it. I have disclosed everything to FF. I hedged the first few days but kept waking up afraid of what other truth might yet come out. I decided if & when any other details became known, I wanted FF to have already heard them from me first. I sat down with her this past Thursday night and confessed everything. She has been more than gracious. She has also been resolute in squashing my affair through exposure and accountability. She has done nobly!
Originally Posted by Learning2Cherish
GloveOil & markos

Thank you, gentlemen, for reaching out to me.

Thank you for all you have been doing to support FF in her "things I never thought of" thread. I read through that trail of posts tonight--FF specifically gave me permission to do so. She made me aware of the fact that you two were reaching out to me and asked me to come post. So here I am.

I screwed up and I know it. I have disclosed everything to FF. I hedged the first few days but kept waking up afraid of what other truth might yet come out. I decided if & when any other details became known, I wanted FF to have already heard them from me first. I sat down with her this past Thursday night and confessed everything. She has been more than gracious. She has also been resolute in squashing my affair through exposure and accountability. She has done nobly!
Did you send that six page NC letter?
I will be completely transparent with you here. I welcome your rebuke / admonishment if you see any area in which I am being an idiot. I know I am still in the fog and I welcome the clarity you offer.

There are no excuses. But there are reasons. Let me fill you in on what has taken place since our last contact in December of 2011. The year 2012 was hell. I found out in May '12 that FF had gone back to her AP in Nov '11. I was devastated. I continued trying to reach out to her and to win her heart back--to fill up her love bank. It seemed no matter how hard I tried she kept me at arm�s length.

Early this year I began working on a ministry team at our church. I did have FF�s support to do that. She cared not to be involved but supported my doing so. My role had me communicating via e-mail frequently with the pastor�s admin assistant. I failed to maintain appropriate boundaries.

In March, we began e-mailing each other about non-ministry-related topics (e.g. the sermons we heard or devotionals we were reading or comments in mission newsletters.) I rationalized to myself this was acceptable because it was discussing spiritual things. I rationalized it was acceptable because we were never alone together and never spoke on the phone. But the truth is I was investing time and energy into another woman; I was allowing my heart to be drawn toward her and away from FF. Ultimately the OW and I expressed in writing to each other that if ever our current vows were completed, we would each seek the other out for the purpose of a shared, future ministry.

I realize now how messed up that is. What a fool I was to think for even a moment that a sense of hope for joy outside of a covenant made before God could ever possibly be of God. Yet I was so desperate for hope and to make sense of what felt like a complete failure on God�s part toward me that I found consolation in the idea that God had some other, �grander� plan. I know now how stupid and wrong this thinking was.

The result was not joy but sorrow and regret. I betrayed and grievously injured my wife, our children, another family and our church leadership. I have brought much heart ache to us all that will carry a life-time of consequences.

But I have hope. Where once I was proud and felt I deserved God�s blessing, I realize now I am nothing more than a sinner, more in need of grace than anyone I know! I knew better!!! Yet I walked that road and took that fall. I am now just another statistic. So who am I to expect anything good from God or from my FF? I am just thankful FF is willing to stand by my side and help me clean up my mess and help me comfort our children as they reap the consequences of Daddy�s choices.

He who is forgiven much loves much.
Did you send that six page NC letter?
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Did you send that six page NC letter?


Not sure about a six-pager??? I have sent no NC letter. That will be up to FF if and when anything is sent. I did speak with her tonight, though. I realize my draft is pretty much fog babble. I am depending on her to help me write a proper NC letter.
Originally Posted by Learning2Cherish
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Did you send that six page NC letter?


Not sure about a six-pager??? I have sent no NC letter. That will be up to FF if and when anything is sent. I did speak with her tonight, though. I realize my draft is pretty much fog babble. I am depending on her to help me write a proper NC letter.

Do you have SAA?
Originally Posted by Dr Harley
My advice is to write a final letter in a way that the victimized spouse would agree to send it. It should begin with a statement of how selfish it was to cause those they loved so much pain, and while marital reconciliation cannot completely repay the offense, it's the right thing to do. A statement should be made about how much the unfaithful spouse cares about his spouse and family, and for their protection, has decided to completely end the relationship with the lover. He or she has promised never to see or communicate with the lover again in life, and asks the lover to respect that promise. Nothing should be said about how much the lover will be missed. After the letter is written, the victimized spouse should read and approve it before it is sent


[from SAA, pg 58]

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, XXXXX
Posted By: markos Re: call-out: Learning2Cherish, atten-HUT! - 08/13/13 04:15 AM
Is the following all true?

Originally Posted by markos
I hope that we will soon see a post from you letting us know that you have ended contact with this woman for life and resigned from this ministry and that from now on your ministries will be performed in conjunction with your wife and that, from the endless ministry opportunities available, you will select only those that you are both enthusiastic about.
Posted By: markos Re: call-out: Learning2Cherish, atten-HUT! - 08/13/13 04:17 AM
Originally Posted by Learning2Cherish
Early this year I began working on a ministry team at our church. I did have FF�s support to do that.

It was still a bad idea. Many married couples manage to agree enthusiastically to something that is a bad idea.

You need to only be involved in ministries with your wife. And there are many available.

Agreed?
Originally Posted by Learning2Cherish
GloveOil & markos

Thank you, gentlemen, for reaching out to me.

Thank you for all you have been doing to support FF in her "things I never thought of" thread. I read through that trail of posts tonight--FF specifically gave me permission to do so. She made me aware of the fact that you two were reaching out to me and asked me to come post. So here I am.

I screwed up and I know it. I have disclosed everything to FF. I hedged the first few days but kept waking up afraid of what other truth might yet come out. I decided if & when any other details became known, I wanted FF to have already heard them from me first. I sat down with her this past Thursday night and confessed everything. She has been more than gracious. She has also been resolute in squashing my affair through exposure and accountability. She has done nobly!

So the purpose of your post was to persuade us that (a) you have finally come clean; (b) your affair is completely over; and (c) you have the highest regard for your BW. Think that will be enough to convince BW that she can cancel your polygraph appointment? Me neither.

I realize you spent a lot of time composing that "no-contact" letter, but you seemed oblivious to the fact that a truly repentent WS would be expressing concern for his BW, not the woman who backstabbed his BW. That "no contact letter" seemed like a shameless attempt to persuade the reader that you were merely guilty of being too concerned with OW's spiritual life. I'm afraid you are desperately trying to whitewash your affair so you can continue withholding information regarding it. Your affair wasn't some high-minded spiritual endeavor, and you didn't write a NC letter; you wrote a CYA letter.
Originally Posted by Learning2Cherish
I will be completely transparent with you here. I welcome your rebuke / admonishment if you see any area in which I am being an idiot. I know I am still in the fog and I welcome the clarity you offer.

There are no excuses. But there are reasons. Let me fill you in on what has taken place since our last contact in December of 2011. The year 2012 was hell. I found out in May '12 that FF had gone back to her AP in Nov '11. I was devastated. I continued trying to reach out to her and to win her heart back--to fill up her love bank. It seemed no matter how hard I tried she kept me at arm�s length.

Early this year I began working on a ministry team at our church. I did have FF�s support to do that. That's not what she said. She cared not to be involved but supported my doing so. My role had me communicating via e-mail frequently with the pastor�s admin assistant. If your goal is to be completely transparent, why are you trying to create distance by referring to OW as "the pastor's admin assistant"? We already know this woman and her family were extremely close friends with your family. I failed to maintain appropriate boundaries.

In March, we began e-mailing each other about non-ministry-related topics (e.g. the sermons we heard or devotionals we were reading or comments in mission newsletters.) I rationalized to myself this was acceptable because it was discussing spiritual things. I rationalized it was acceptable because we were never alone together and never spoke on the phone. But the truth is I was investing time and energy into another woman; I was allowing my heart to be drawn toward her and away from FF. Ultimately the OW and I expressed in writing to each other that if ever our current vows were completed, we would each seek the other out for the purpose of a shared, future ministry. According to your BW, you and OW wanted to marry each other if your spouses weren't in the picture. You described the prospect of marrying your affair partner as "a shared future ministry." Wow.

I realize now how messed up that is. What a fool I was to think for even a moment that a sense of hope for joy outside of a covenant made before God could ever possibly be of God. Yet I was so desperate for hope and to make sense of what felt like a complete failure on God�s part toward me that I found consolation in the idea that God had some other, �grander� plan. I know now how stupid and wrong this thinking was.

The result was not joy but sorrow and regret. I betrayed and grievously injured my wife, our children, another family and our church leadership. I have brought much heart ache to us all that will carry a life-time of consequences.

But I have hope. Where once I was proud and felt I deserved God�s blessing, I realize now I am nothing more than a sinner, more in need of grace than anyone I know! I knew better!!! Yet I walked that road and took that fall. I am now just another statistic. So who am I to expect anything good from God or from my FF? I am just thankful FF is willing to stand by my side and help me clean up my mess and help me comfort our children as they reap the consequences of Daddy�s choices. Why are you so focused on yourself? Why is this all about you?

He who is forgiven much loves much.
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
[from SAA, pg 58]

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, XXXXX


Thank you for the reference, BrainHurts. This is good. I can write this with complete sincerity. I will start with this and work with FF to modify if she thinks need be.
Originally Posted by markos
It was still a bad idea. Many married couples manage to agree enthusiastically to something that is a bad idea.

You need to only be involved in ministries with your wife. And there are many available.

Agreed?

Yes, markos. Agreed. I commit to this.
Originally Posted by JessicaClaire
So the purpose of your post was to persuade us that (a) you have finally come clean; (b) your affair is completely over; and (c) you have the highest regard for your BW. Think that will be enough to convince BW that she can cancel your polygraph appointment? Me neither.

The purpose of my post was to come back to MB to seek help from others just like you--those who will call it like they see it. This helps me identify areas where I am still messed up in my thinking. This helps me chart a course that I hope will allow full reconciliation with FF. I want a good marriage. I want to a good life with FF and with our children.

(a) Yes. I have come clean.
(b) Yes. The affair is completely over.
(c) Yes. I have the highest regard for FF whom I have betrayed.

I don't want to cancel the poly. If taking the poly will give FF peace of mind to begin trusting me again and to begin healing, then I do not want to cancel.

Posted By: mrEureka Re: call-out: Learning2Cherish, atten-HUT! - 08/13/13 12:32 PM
Originally Posted by Learning2Cherish
The result was not joy but sorrow and regret. I betrayed and grievously injured my wife, our children, another family and our church leadership. I have brought much heart ache to us all that will carry a life-time of consequences.
Your affair is a cautionary tale for other BSs of the increased risk they face for affairs of their own. It is important for all BSs to realize this, or they will compound the suffering in their marriage greatly. You speak of lifelong consequences. That is true, but the consequences need not be all negative. You can have a fantastic marriage. It will require dedication on your part.

You write about your zeal for seeking involvement in ministries for the Lord. There is no more basic ministry than marriage and family. The Lord entrusts us with the care of these most valuable souls. It is our first ministry. Without properly attending to this trust, we are in no position to branch out. We must first care for this, so that we will not have a log in our eye that prevents seeing clearly to help others.

You need to accept full responsibility for your first ministry being in shambles. I know you see all kinds of reasons why, and you seek to couch your actions in ennobling motives. Yet I have to tell you, your affair was totally vanilla. I serve as an elder in my church. We have dealt with staff issues involving inappropriate contact with members. I know the solution to this sort of situation. Both families need to seek new churches. Needless to say, retention of staff is impossible, no matter who apologizes. It is for the good of the families, since remaining in the same church is harmful to their marriages.

You need to concentrate on your first ministry, to the exclusion of other ones. You can expect to have to do this for at least two years. That is how long it will take. Any plan of branching out to help others before you set right the conditions in your own life are highly inappropriate, and certainly not from the Lord. So, are you up to this calling?
Originally Posted by markos
I hope that we will soon see a post from you letting us know that you have ended contact with this woman for life and resigned from this ministry and that from now on your ministries will be performed in conjunction with your wife and that, from the endless ministry opportunities available, you will select only those that you are both enthusiastic about.

markos,
Yes, I am committed to NC for life. Though I've yet to accomplish the NC letter. I'm working on that with FF.
Yes, I have already resigned from all the ministries in which I volunteered. I have explained to our pastors why this is necessary and have asked their forgiveness.
Yes, any ministry in the future (and that is years away) will be with FF and only if she is enthusiastic about it. My only ministry right now is my wife and children and repairing what I have torn down.
Originally Posted by mrEureka
There is no more basic ministry than marriage and family. The Lord entrusts us with the care of these most valuable souls. It is our first ministry... You need to accept full responsibility for your first ministry being in shambles... You need to concentrate on your first ministry, to the exclusion of other ones. You can expect to have to do this for at least two years. That is how long it will take. Any plan of branching out to help others before you set right the conditions in your own life are highly inappropriate, and certainly not from the Lord. So, are you up to this calling?

I agree with all you have said, mrEureka. Yes--I am up to this. I do not know what counsel our pastor will give us tonight but I hear the wisdom in your counsel. I am willing to walk this path.

Originally Posted by mrEureka
I know the solution to this sort of situation. Both families need to seek new churches. Needless to say, retention of staff is impossible, no matter who apologizes. It is for the good of the families, since remaining in the same church is harmful to their marriages.

Thank you for sharing what you have seen done at your church. Again, I hear the wisdom in this.

Originally Posted by mrEureka
but the consequences need not be all negative. You can have a fantastic marriage. It will require dedication on your part.

Thank you for this encouragement. This IS what I want.

Posted By: markos Re: call-out: Learning2Cherish, atten-HUT! - 08/13/13 02:09 PM
L2C,

If your pastor encourages your wife to reconcile with / forgive OW, are you going to run the other way and leave that church?

I hope she doesn't go through the trauma of church leadership giving her a marriage-destroying message. Many do.
Posted By: Prisca Re: call-out: Learning2Cherish, atten-HUT! - 08/13/13 03:01 PM
Have you told Dr. Harley what you have done?
Posted By: markos Re: call-out: Learning2Cherish, atten-HUT! - 08/13/13 03:51 PM
I second that. Let Dr. Harley know, because he is a great source of help.

Do you guys listen to the radio show? It sounds to me like you have been immersed in a culture that promotes marriage-destroying ideas, like choosing church activities over your spouse and calling it Godly. I've been in a similar culture to some extent. I use Marriage Builders radio to help change my internal "culture" so that my family and I can be a part of a marriage-promoting culture.
Originally Posted by Prisca
Have you told Dr. Harley what you have done?
Not yet. I will confer with FF about doing so.

Originally Posted by markos
If your pastor encourages your wife to reconcile with / forgive OW, are you going to run the other way and leave that church?

Yes! I choose FF and protecting her and defending the re-building our marriage together. Regardless of the advice we receive from our pastor tonight, we plan to leave the church. But I do hope the pastor's advice mirrors that of mrEureka's. It would be nice to know the congregation we are leaving is in good hands.
Posted By: Prisca Re: call-out: Learning2Cherish, atten-HUT! - 08/13/13 05:04 PM
Quote
Not yet. I will confer with FF about doing so.
You don't need to confer. Post to him right now.
Posted By: markos Re: call-out: Learning2Cherish, atten-HUT! - 08/13/13 05:14 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
Not yet. I will confer with FF about doing so.
You don't need to confer. Post to him right now.

Yep. Just exposure yourself and ask for help.
Posted By: markos Re: call-out: Learning2Cherish, atten-HUT! - 08/13/13 05:16 PM
Originally Posted by Learning2Cherish
Yes! I choose FF and protecting her and defending the re-building our marriage together. Regardless of the advice we receive from our pastor tonight, we plan to leave the church. But I do hope the pastor's advice mirrors that of mrEureka's. It would be nice to know the congregation we are leaving is in good hands.

I am glad to hear of your decision.

I hope the pastor's advice is like that of mrEureka, but in my experience, church leaders who will take that stance are few and far between.

(Side note - never knew mrEureka was an elder before - I'm glad to hear it. The church needs more elders with good marriages who take a stand for marriage-building decisions. smile )
Originally Posted by markos
It sounds to me like you have been immersed in a culture that promotes marriage-destroying ideas, like choosing church activities over your spouse and calling it Godly.
Well. I take full ownership for my twisted thinking. But, yes, I grew up in an environment that facilitated thinking this way. I grew up as a missionary kid and constantly heard how important a calling to missions is. Those who stepped forward to go to the mission field were lauded as heroes.

My sister is a missionary in Africa. I'd have to say she and her family are esteemed more highly by my parents than my family and me. I have a lot of baggage and I am beginning to see just how burdened down with it I have been. I am beginning to see, too, how much I have been burdening my own family with this same baggage.

Stepping out of church-related ministry for at least the next two years will be a very good first step to breaking away from this mindset and putting my focus on my family as my first and most important ministry. I want to learn to just enjoy them and love them for who they are.
L2C, you are in good hands. I will make just one quick note:

Originally Posted by Learning2Cherish
I rationalized to myself this was acceptable ... I was allowing my heart to be drawn toward her and away from FF. Ultimately the OW and I expressed in writing to each other that if ever our current vows were completed, we would each seek the other out for the purpose of a shared, future ministry.

Please refrain from such high-falutin' language. Using language such as this allows you to save face both with others and, more importantly, with your self - thus leaving the door open to future infidelity. You wanted to be rid of your spouses. That is one example, but this admonition is for everything affair-related. The sooner you call this for what it is and not whitewash your actions - because, make no mistake, sir, your actions were far from noble and cloaking them in nice-sounding language or pseudo-holy garb is an affront - the sooner you can help FF heal and begin protecting your marriage.

If you don't admit to the extent of damage you perpetrated, how will you ever be safe for FF? How will you ever provide adequate Just Compensation? How will you prevent "your heart being drawn to another" in the future? You have no integrity when you veil your thoughts and intentions with acceptable-sounding motives.

You can dress up a pig, sure, but then you get to comment on the beautiful dress and omit the fact that it's still a pig.
Posted By: mrEureka Re: call-out: Learning2Cherish, atten-HUT! - 08/13/13 06:25 PM
Originally Posted by markos
I hope the pastor's advice is like that of mrEureka, but in my experience, church leaders who will take that stance are few and far between.
I actually had a pretty bad experience with the pastor in my own personal situation. Pastors are great for putting the "forgiveness" cart in front of the "recovery" horse.
Our pastor (large church) just preached a sermon about forgiveness last weekend and said that "if you don't forgive, you don't have the spirit of God." Sigh.....I just cringe when I hear stuff like that. Nothing about repentance or compensating the victim. Just do it - Forgive regardless.
"if you don't forgive, you don't have the spirit of God."
Oh yeah? rotflmao

As I recall the story, the prodigal son was feted with the fatted calf only after he came home in repentance!
Well. FF and I met last night with our pastor. He did most of the talking. He finally asked FF how she was doing. Half way through her answer he broke in and proceeded to ramble on for quite some time about his own experience with life�s hurts.

He told us he had exposed my affair with OW only to two other pastors and partially to the security team lead. He told us he felt that was as far as exposure needed to go. He told us he hopes in time we will all be restored / reconciled.

WRONG ANSWER, I thought to myself. Why not expose to the whole church and let others learn from my mistakes? Why not cast the whole thing into the light and let the church do what it�s supposed to do: forgive and encourage right living, to include seeing there are consequences of sin such as families having to find new churches and friendships that will never be the same.

FF asked if it was wrong for her to feel that she does not want to be friends again with OW. To his credit, the pastor said, �No.� He shared there are several people in his own life whom although he has forgiven, he wants nothing to do with them and chooses to stay away from them because it is too painful being around them. He used the split between Paul and Barnabas over John Mark as a biblical example of two men who forgave each other but chose never to work together again. That is a good example, but he failed to follow it to the logical application of handling an affair within the church.

Before we met with the pastor FF had asked that during this session I not bring up our intention to leave. So I sat and listened, mostly, other than sharing with the pastor that what I want most now is to learn to see my wife and children as my most important ministry.

It is a long journey ahead. It is sinking in more and more the damage I have done. I watched my wife cry tears of pain over talking about the loss of her best friend. I should be the source of comfort in her life but instead I have been the source of grief and pain.
It's become quite clear that leaving is the only option. With such a pastor, you could not feel safe. Hoping that God will heal and restore everyone to each other...just because?

God doesn't work like that. I hardly doubt that He would fault anyone for leaving a church under such circumstances as this.

Is he afraid of the OW being ruined in the church? It almost sounds like it -- like a weak BH, who doesn't want his wife's reputation ruined, when it's her fault things went that way. Consequences happens.

Quote
Why not expose to the whole church and let others learn from my mistakes? Why not cast the whole thing into the light and let the church do what it�s supposed to do: forgive and encourage right living, to include seeing there are consequences of sin such as families having to find new churches and friendships that will never be the same.

Not to mention you will want the other married women to know about this dangerous woman who could be trying to line up someone else!
Originally Posted by Learning2Cherish
Before we met with the pastor FF had asked that during this session I not bring up our intention to leave. So I sat and listened, mostly, other than sharing with the pastor that what I want most now is to learn DECIDE to see my wife and children as my most important ministry.

There, I taught you.

Now do.
Posted By: mrEureka Re: call-out: Learning2Cherish, atten-HUT! - 08/14/13 11:11 AM
Originally Posted by Learning2Cherish
He told us he had exposed my affair with OW only to two other pastors and partially to the security team lead. He told us he felt that was as far as exposure needed to go. He told us he hopes in time we will all be restored / reconciled.
Pastors often don't have a clue on how to recover from infidelity. Our pastor encouraged my wife not to tell me who the other man (her boss) was, and then sent her back to work with zero expectation that she should end contact. To his credit, he told us at the beginning that he wasn't very experience at working with marriage problems. So, he directed us to another Christian counselling service that was not any better. Thankfully, God directed us to MB. That is where the actual help came from.
Posted By: GloveOil Re: call-out: Learning2Cherish, atten-HUT! - 08/14/13 11:46 AM
L2C, given the situation that you're in, you are actually in a pretty good starting-off point to build a great marriage, if you choose. You have a wife who gets it. You've got a basis to empathize with one another. You've got every reason to say "never again" and I will do better" and mean it.

Maybe you've heard it said that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Well, the road from good intentions to a better marriage is (or must be) paved with actions. What you need is a set of actions: extraordinary precautions on your part (and her part, given her past) to keep clear of what you didn't keep clear of in the past; and positive actions & efforts to ID one another's emotional needs better, and to meet them as fully as possible, and to avoid the "love-busters" that weaken one's relationship. Have you got a practical plan for redoubling your efforts to this end? (I trust these terms aren't new to you?)

I would start with the EPs. Which ones will you be taking? It helps to have a concrete list.

I'll start you out with one, in case it's not already at the top of your list, and as you might guess, it's that you need to be gone from that congregation.

I know... it can seem pretty daunting & disorienting. My wife & I left a church that we'd been part of for 13 years. We'd served it, and we & our children had helped build it. We had good friends there whom we knew we would see a lot less of. But... we took our counselor & no-contact seriously, and it had to be that way, because to stay there would've been an anchor dragging back our recovery, a constant source of pain & triggers to my wife. This is so obvious to me, 4 & a half years after the fact, that it seems silly to be typing it -- like typing "rain falls downward" or "the sky is blue" as though they were great revelations. Maybe it doesn't seem as clear-cut to you; but if not, then you're not really taking a clear look at the fear & pain that the prospect of continued contact is causing your wife. She doesn't prefer to leave either, but I think she knows that it's necessary. The constant apprehension of looking over her shoulder (if OW is there) and wondering, and even the mere thought of you & OW sharing confidences & admiration in that setting, is a trigger that you simply cannot permit her to suffer.

Banish all doubt on this point, my friend. Do what you need to do for her peace of mind. Explain your decision to your pastor if you want -- he might learn something from the conversation; but don't be dissuaded by any "resolution" that envisions you & FF and that other couple in the same congregation.

Oh, and: You need to lead on this, L2C. Or, better-put: You need to be side-by-side in lockstep with FF as her protector here. You want a chance to mininster to your family & show spiritual leadership? Here's a chance & it's staring you right in the face.
Originally Posted by Learning2Cherish
I want most now is to learn to see my wife and children as my most important ministry.

Why do you want to see them as your "most important" ministry? They should be your only ministry, and not just for the next few years. They should be your only ministry for the rest of your life. Your affair and the holier-than-thou attitude toward your wife have nearly destroyed your family. There are plenty of people who can serve God through missions and church leadership. Please have enough humility to recognize that you are not one of them.
Originally Posted by Learning2Cherish
Stepping out of church-related ministry for at least the next two years will be a very good first step to breaking away from this mindset and putting my focus on my family as my first and most important ministry. I want to learn to just enjoy them and love them for who they are.

A 2-year hiatus is not going to cut it. And your comment, "I want to learn to just enjoy them and love them for who they are," is very revealing. You said you need to "learn" to love your wife and kids "for who they are" as if they need improvement, but you would try to love them anyway. Do you have any idea how cold and patronizing that is?
Posted By: mrEureka Re: call-out: Learning2Cherish, atten-HUT! - 08/14/13 04:11 PM
Originally Posted by JessicaClaire
Originally Posted by Learning2Cherish
Stepping out of church-related ministry for at least the next two years will be a very good first step to breaking away from this mindset and putting my focus on my family as my first and most important ministry. I want to learn to just enjoy them and love them for who they are.

A 2-year hiatus is not going to cut it. And your comment, "I want to learn to just enjoy them and love them for who they are," is very revealing. You said you need to "learn" to love your wife and kids "for who they are" as if they need improvement, but you would try to love them anyway. Do you have any idea how cold and patronizing that is?
Two years is the basic minimum time to recover. If recovery is successful, then POJA will define what the path forward should be. After recovery, there may be a place for joint ministry. It is premature to say. Recover first, and then use POJA to figure it out.
I understand what you are saying, but I think he needs to recognize that his personal desire to work in missions poses an unacceptable risk to his family and whatever church he attends. It's as if I had been trying to practice medicine--be advised that I have no medical training whatsoever--and had seriously harmed several people as a result. The solution wouldn't be to make me stop "practicing medicine" for 2 years; it would be to make me stop it altogether. If I were truly remorseful for the harm I'd caused, I wouldn't even consider engaging in that behavior in the future.

Moreover, couples can POJA activities which are harmful to their marriage, and applying POJA to a risky activity won't make it less risky. If EPs are designed to eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible, then his ability to do this activity should be eliminated. Do you see where I'm coming from?
Posted By: mrEureka Re: call-out: Learning2Cherish, atten-HUT! - 08/14/13 06:05 PM
Originally Posted by JessicaClaire
I understand what you are saying, but I think he needs to recognize that his personal desire to work in missions poses an unacceptable risk to his family and whatever church he attends. It's as if I had been trying to practice medicine--be advised that I have no medical training whatsoever--and had seriously harmed several people as a result. The solution wouldn't be to make me stop "practicing medicine" for 2 years; it would be to make me stop it altogether. If I were truly remorseful for the harm I'd caused, I wouldn't even consider engaging in that behavior in the future.

Moreover, couples can POJA activities which are harmful to their marriage, and applying POJA to a risky activity won't make it less risky. If EPs are designed to eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible, then his ability to do this activity should be eliminated. Do you see where I'm coming from?
Yes, I do. However, all Christians are expected to do the Lord's work, and it is very much an exercise in POJA for a married couple to figure out how they are going to fulfill that requirement.

Much of the problem here is in agreeing on precisely what is meant by "ministry". If, by that, we are talking about some kind of self-gratifying experience, then you are precisely correct. There is really no place for that. Yet, ministry does not need to be grandiose. My autistic son and I go to the church every Friday and fold the bulletins. That's a ministry, one which he really likes doing. This couple should be doing nothing (not even folding bulletins) but concentrating totally on recovering their marriage. Once they have recovered, then whatever church work they engage in needs to satisfy POJA. I, too, believe that self-gratification has no place in church work. The Lord commissions us to serve, not to be served.
Posted By: GloveOil Re: call-out: Learning2Cherish, atten-HUT! - 08/14/13 11:07 PM
L2C, I'd advise that you not let your attention wander or be drawn over the horizon to what mininstry or form(s) of service will be part of your life 2, 3, or 10 years hence, nor in wasting time pondering or debating what that might look like. There'll be time for that -- some other time. For you to do so at present would constitute a loss of focus -- and that's a luxury you, your wife & your family can't afford.

When someone is trying to land a jet in a storm, he or she had better focus on landing the darned jet, not on what kind of punch they might be serving in the flight crew lounge tomorrow evening. That immediate task, if you will, is your mission right now, and your commission, for the forseeable future. It's not a detour from some longer-term path; rather, it is your longer-term path -- until you & FF are someday at a point where you're in a recovered marriage that is better than what you've had in your marriage prior to this mess of the last couple of years.

In my previous post on this thread, I mentioned the need for a set of specific actions. What actions will you be taking? What's your list of actions? This is not a mere rhetorical question; it is a practical direction for you.

I'll be looking forward to your answers, as well as any questions you might have. Please focus on this.
Posted By: Prisca Re: call-out: Learning2Cherish, atten-HUT! - 08/16/13 02:13 AM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
Not yet. I will confer with FF about doing so.
You don't need to confer. Post to him right now.

Yep. Just exposure yourself and ask for help.

Have you done this yet?
I'm still here. More later but for now here is a brief update:

- Poly is today
- NC letter written; FF said she will mail it to OW
- Enthusiastic agreement to find new church
- I commit that whatever church we end up at I will refrain from serving
- I commit that I will focus on FF and our children--on being a better husband and father than I have been
- I will respond to your questions and counsel this weekend (thank you)
- I will write to Dr. Harley this weekend
I see in FF's �things I never thought of� thread that she mentioned I recommended several questions for my poly. I regret that it appears I have tried to muddy the waters or dilute the test.

I suggested in addition to verifying I have had no physical relations of any kind with OW that FF also ask:

- Have I had any contact or communication of any kind with OW since 5 August
- Do I have any secret means of contacting OW that I intend to use or might be tempted to use in the future
- Do I have any secret plans for any kind of future with OW

These are questions for which I wish I'd had the truth when I was the BS. My motivation was to help us get the most we can out of today's poly toward building trust--toward giving FF the added assurance that the answers to all of the above questions are �no.�
Originally Posted by Learning2Cherish
I see in FF's �things I never thought of� thread that she mentioned I recommended several questions for my poly. I regret that it appears I have tried to muddy the waters or dilute the test.

I suggested in addition to verifying I have had no physical relations of any kind with OW that FF also ask:

- Have I had any contact or communication of any kind with OW since 5 August Your BW told us that you met with OW and her husband on Aug. 11.
- Do I have any secret means of contacting OW that I intend to use or might be tempted to use in the future A polygraph can only test your memory of something that occurred in the past. A polygraph cannot verify your feelings or intentions, so that is not a legitimate polygraph test question.
- Do I have any secret plans for any kind of future with OW Again, that is not a legit polygraph test question. A polygraph cannot verify your plans for the future; it can only determine whether you are being honest regarding your memory of something that occurred in the past.

These are questions for which I wish I'd had the truth when I was the BS. My motivation was to help us get the most we can out of today's poly toward building trust--toward giving FF the added assurance that the answers to all of the above questions are �no.�
Posted By: markos Re: call-out: Learning2Cherish, atten-HUT! - 08/16/13 04:18 PM
Originally Posted by Learning2Cherish
- I will write to Dr. Harley this weekend

Why the delay? Why not today?

Suggestion: do it today.
Here's your question.
Radio Clip of Learning2Cherish's Question
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