I am new to the MB forum and appreciate the vast information and help that are offered here.

A little bit about my H and me:
We have been married for almost 24 years. H is 70 and I am 67. For the first 15 years of our marriage, H was engaged in an EA with his ex. I did not meet his need for Family Commitment. But, their interactions were much more than about the children. She was fine with a divorce until he remarried. She used FC to wedge herself into working on "getting him back". I understand her feelings. I had the same feelings about my ex when he remarried. But, I did not try to break up their marriage. And I CERTAINLY did not issue an ultimatum: divorce your wife and remarry me or I will marry this other guy! H did not discourage her from continuing to try to win H back. After a while, I began engaging in LB's---angry outbursts, pleading for him to stop, etc. After 15 years, it finally was over for good. I should mention, also, that H had an EA with ANOTHER woman, too, during this time, discussing intimate details of our M with her as well as his ex. A couple of years ago, H told me about yet another woman who he thinks is WONDERFUL in many ways---all my weaknesses. At that time, I was not meeting his need for SF. But, that's not what he said was wonderful about her.

Anyway, I have not felt safe nor loved for most of our married life. I understand, now, that it is partly due to the idea that I should just "get over it". Also, no EPs in place. And, there are a lot of triggers---most of them related to his dishonesty.

We have taken the EN Inventory. My two most important ENs are: Affection and RC. His are Affection and SF. We have also taken the LB Inventory. The two that cause H the most unhappiness are Selfish Demands and Disrespectful Judgments. The two that cause me the most unhappiness are Dishonesty and Independent Behavior.

With that background, I would appreciate your feedback on the EP I have written, but not yet given, my H:
1. Follow, and follow through with: POJA, PRH, PUA, meeting each other's ENs, avoiding each other's LB's.
2. No contact with Pam, Billie, or Mary P. Block them from FB.
3. Take a polygraph. (This is due to his chronic dishonesty. I think it's time I know what I'm REALLY dealing with).
4. Keep passwords and user names up-to-date. (He and I already have a notebook with all present info).
5. Show me all phone bills. (I don't know---He may have another phone he's keeping a secret.)
6. Install key loggers on laptop, desktop, and phone. This is because most of the phone calls he makes are when I am not around. His favorite, when having EA with ex (actually, maybe more than EA since he spent the weekend with her three times) was to call when I was in the shower!
7. No friendships with POS's.
8. No talking to POS's re personal subjects. Ex.: likes, dislikes, our or our former marriages, personal history.
9. No flirting or joking around with POS.
10. No clubbing, strip joints, etc. without me.
11. Provide daily schedule of all appointments and daily schedule of 100% of your time.
12. No going for walks or to the gym without me. (This is because his "latest" lives a few doors down from us, goes for walks with her dog, and frequents the gym.)
13. All independent (of me) recreational activities, except POJA'd golf, cease and are replaced with recreational activities that include me. This is to continue until #1 are HABITS (not broken until I feel comfortable that you will REALLY FOLLOW them). This is because H habitually POJA's and then ignores, even when he tells me he enthusiastically agrees.
14. On golf days, call me from the 17th hole. (I can see him from our deck.)
15. No more nights apart after already-planned golf trip. Call me at least once a day during the trip.
16. Any time I have the thought "I don't want my wife to know about..." call me IMMEDIATELY---BEFORE you do it.
17. Sundays, plan together our recreational activities and appointments. We do this already and I'd like it to continue.

I am concerned that these might appear controlling, OTOH. OTOH, I want to start feeling safe and loved. I would appreciate your input. Thank you for reading this lengthy post!

Hello, TS (I just can't call you The Sewer! Perhaps you might consider changing your displayed name?)

I'm sorry for the pain that has brought you to this place.

Having EPs is not controlling. They are instituted to protect you from the pain of adultery.

One thing I have heard Dr. Harley say is that men need women in their lives, so they should be doing a great deal to be a good man in order to keep a good woman in their lives. Older men who are married are healthier and happier, whereas many older women are quite content living on their own. So, you see, there is an incentive for your H to try his best to hold on to you by becoming a really good and SAFE man.

Women who are not married and are on the prowl will flatter a man and he gets hooked on the cheap admiration. If that woman was married to the man and suffering his IB and dishonesty, her admiration would quickly end.

In order for a woman to enjoy SF with her H, she needs to feel cared for and in love with her H. In order for her to feel cared for and loved, he needs to be affectionate and conversational with her AND avoid love busters. It all works together. If you have not felt loved or cared for during your marriage, it is little wonder you have not felt like making love with your H.

As you have discovered, there is no "getting over it" when it comes to adultery, whether physical or emotional.

First step in Recovering your Marriage is No Contact ever again with any former girlfriends, wives, or adultery partners, which would include any EAs and PAs. If he MUST communicate with his XW, then you need to set up an IM. She, as well as any others, must find it impossible to contact him (or you) directly. There is no reason for his XW to communicate directly with him. This can be done through an IM (intermediary.)

Second step: Transparency and Integrated life - you know where the other is at all times; share each others schedules with each other; ability to check up on whereabouts; exchange cell phones without questions; all passwords shared.

Third Step: No nights apart

Fourth Step: Extraordinary Precautions for the rest of your life. You created a list of these. I would go further than no contact with those former adultery partners; he needs to have NO friendships with the opposite sex. Period. Friendships are how affairs begin.

Fifth step: A program of recovery that builds a romantic passionate marriage, a marriage that is BETTER than ever before. MB has an excellent online program for about a thousand dollars - the accountability and access to Dr. H.'s private forum is well worth it.

Since one of his APs lives down the street from you, you two might strongly consider moving away.

He should either cancel the upcoming planned golf trip or you should go with him.

Go ahead and install the keyloggers yourself. It's better if he doesn't know about the loggers. Yes, this is called "snooping," and Dr. Harley condones this. It's for the sake of the safety of the marriage.

Well, apparently 'self-control' has not been an option for WH.
Anyone who cannot control themselves needs tighter 'rules'.

I do have an issue with #10.


The "etc" is vague. This is really trying to say the following:

#10
All recreational activity will be together as a couple and must be mutually enjoyable for both of us.


Welcome to MB.

TS,

I agree about the posting name. Can you think of a different name that is positive for the future?

It seems as though you are knowledgeable about some things in MB. Have you read Dr. Harley's book, "Surviving an Affair"?

Is your husband on board with MB? Does he know the main principles?

AM

FWIW, I took it to mean she's a seamstress. But it does look odd.

Oh, of course. Silly me. I read something entirely different. TS, do you quilt?

AM

TS, if his OW lives a few doors down from you, that will be a disaster because your marriage can't recover like that. Dr Harley would tell you to move. Is that what you mean by "latest?"

If so, that is a deal breaker.

Even walking by the OW's house with you defeats the purpose because he will still be triggered. Having you there won't prevent his feelings from coming back.

Entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

How to Survive an Affair chapter in HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS
p. 177

...I have seen husbands build new and wonderful relationships with their wives but then go back to their lovers after five or six years of what appeared to be marital bliss. When I ask them why, they inevitably tell me they miss the woman terribly and still love her. At the same time they stoutly affirm they love their wives dearly and would not think of leaving them.

I believe a man like this has told the truth. He is hopelessly entangled and needs all the help possible to be kept away from his lover and stay faithful to his wife. I often recommend that a man once involved in an affair come in to see me every three to six months on an indefinite basis, just to talk about how things are going and to let me know how successfully he has stayed away from his lover. He must resign himself to a lifetime without her. HE MUST CERTAINLY NOT WORK WITH HIS FORMER LOVER AND SHOULD PROBABLY LIVE IN SOME OTHER CITY OR STATE. Even with those restrictions the desire for her company persists...

Thank you all for your very thoughtful responses.

ROTFL...Yes, one of my hobbies is sew-ing, mostly for my H and my home (window treatments) and costumes, as needed. But, I can see the need to change my User Name. How is that done?

@LongWayFromHome:
There has been hardly any communication with XW for years, although there have been recent emails re her belief that she has not been getting her full share of his military retirement pay. I have been included in all the emails re this. I think it might be a good idea to choose an IM.
There are grandchildren involved, now. So, going to Baptisms and other milestones are out of bounds? Those are the only times we see her. Last time, two years ago, was a Baptism. XW was there, but left early. Nobody---not even her kids---seemed to care about it. This seemed strange and H commented re it. It still does bother me when there a conversations between the two of them at these functions, so can see your point. I am vacillating.
Re the present person: I don't know if they are having/have had an EA or not, but H's comments re how WONDERFUL she is did wave a huge red flag. She is very rude to me. The thing that angered me the most was the time that H and I were standing in a group. She came up and planted herself between H and me, turned her back to me, and started talking to H. That was the LAST time we did anything social with them. H used to play tennis with a group that includes her. Not anymore. She and her BF have their house up for sale, but it has not yet sold. They have/had plans to move to another state and have made a deposit to build a house there. So, I'm waiting...
Re the golf trip: This trip is with a group of guy friends. Is it something I should be concerned about?

@Pepperbound:
H has said I am controlling, but I think you are right re H's lack of boundaries with OW. I just want to be sure I am not being too controlling re EP. Apparantly, I'm not, so it sets my mind at ease.
As for #10, do you think that is covered in #13?

@ArmyMama:
Yes, we have both read SAA, LB, HNHN and have the workbook. H SAYS he is on board with the principles but he has not followed through on POJA even though he SAYS he "enthusiastically agrees". I do my part, he does not do his. Always excuses as to why not. Mainly, he's a "conflict avoider". H "forgot" what one of my top two ENs were. He did a good job with the one he remembered. (It's his top need as well, so easy for him...) His "enthusiastically agreeing" and then not doing his part has been the main source of contention for most of our marriage.

ALL: I do understand what you all are saying re golf. When we discussed his not following through on his part, we brainstormed some consequences. It was his idea to give up a golf date any time he does not follow POJA or not working on my ENs. I'm a former teacher, so trying Behavior Modification. Otherwise, he seems to have no incentive. So, what do you think?

TS,,

Since you are familar with MB principles, but are having diffiulty with implementation, have you considered signing up for the on-line course? For my H and me, this course was really the start of our recovery. Our coach was able to address issues with my H more effectively than I was.

What do you think?

AM

If his life is a shell without Facebook (caveat: I am NOT a fan of Facebook!) the two of you need a joint FB account. Use a loving picture of the two of you together for your profile picture.

He should not know about this. Remove this from your list of requirements. Then put the keyloggers on. This is a critical snooping tool that you should be using without his knowledge.

Neither one of you should be in strip joints, separately or together. Why in the world would you want your husband staring at a naked woman, with you or without you???

I'm not exactly sure how you will be able to enforce this, and how he will be able to maintain it. You may want to rephrase this to read that you need to know where he is at all times. He also needs to be available to you at all times via phone, minimum. You can use snooping tools to confirm his veracity.
This is a sweet thought. I'm visualizing you guys on the phone while you're waving at each other. But I would require him to call you from the THIRD hole. That way you know he's playing 18 holes and not nine. That's a difference of 1-1/2 to 2 hours of unaccounted-for time.

ArmyMama,
Right now, money is tight. In a couple of months, things will loosen up a little (too many bills due at the same time.) In the meantime, I'd like to strike while the iron is hot. H is pretty receptive right now. Since setting limits and tying them to golf, he is doing much better with POJA. But, I do agree that it is a good idea to take the online course. Thank you for your input re my questions.

Marital Bliss,
1. You are so right re FB. I started first, to stay in touch with my 15 year old granddaughter. Then, he started an account to stay in touch with his daughter and grand kids. We don't post much, ourselves. But, I think it's a GREAT idea to have a joint account! I'll put that in the EP plan.
2. Yes. I now understand re key loggers. I'll take that off the EP plan and just do it on my own without his knowledge.
3. OMG, you are so right re strip joints! I don't know that he has ever frequented one---at least, not during our marriage. Don't want to put any ideas in his head We don't go to clubs very often. We have a country club in our neighborhood. Present possible EA person and her BF have not been to any of the functions since NYE. They are having their own issues, right now. She does play Mahjongg on Mondays, so I have said, no golf on Mondays. So far, he is complying.
4. Yes. I will rephrase.
5. Actually, he has been calling me from the 17th hole for the past several weeks. A lot of the guys do that, so it's not unusual. I did not realize, however, that he has the opportunity to have an extra couple of hours by just playing the back nine. Somehow, that needs to be addressed. Not sure how, since I can't see him at the third hole. He could call from anywhere and say he's at the third hole, couldn't he? And, he could just play the front nine, too. So, technically, he'd have to call me twice. Hmmmm...Any ideas?

So, technically, he'd have to call me twice. Hmmmm...Any ideas?

Hide a GPS in his golfbag. Not only could you verify his activity.....you could probably double-check his golf score!

Or a cell phone with GPS?

AM

Or a cell phone with GPS?

No good. He'd have to be told to turn the GPS "on", so he'd know he was being tracked. That being the case, he could ask a buddy to tote the phone around the course, and "play a round" leaving WH free to "play around"!

Wow...you all are GOOD! you've made me think about possibilities I would not have considered. How about this:

I was planning to put "spyware" on his phone, laptop, and desktop, anyway.
I can put a GPS in his golf bag, too.
I also can make EP include looking at the club bill every month and match it up to the dates he has put it on our calendar.

What do you all think?

There is no such thing as too much snooping at this point....

I agree. The more snooping that is in place, the better. That is especially true if the snooping reveals nothing. Having a variety of snooping methods that doesn't show anything increases the confidence that you haven't missed something. Rather convoluted. Hope it makes sense.

AM

I would say look at the club bill yourself without H knowing. Its another form of snooping. If he knows you're looking at it, he'll find a way to cheat on that too.

And I agree with armymama, there can not be too much snooping. If it brings you good intel, do it!!!

Thanks, everyone, for all your input on my EPs. I am starting another thread with revised EPs. Please critique. I appreciate your help SO MUCH!

TS,

It is better to keep to the same thread. It makes it easier for other posters to recall who you are and what is going on. Go ahead and post them on this thread. Folks will know that they are the revised EPs.

Are you and your H both retired? Do you spend most of your time together?

Just curious, were either one of you still married when you met?


AM

ArmyMama,
I already started another thread. I'm sorry. I hope you will post your thoughts there.

Yes. H and I are both retired (5 years). Up until recently, we were like ships in the night. He went his way, I went mine. I realized we were growing apart a little over a year ago. But, he was having too good a time to get on board with limiting his IB. Golf 3X per week with the guys, tennis twice a week with a mixed group. I asked him to please at least stop the tennis. He refused. Pam ( the WONDERFUL one), was part of that group. After a while, I resigned myself to it and withdrew for about a year. One night, I couldn't sleep and wrote him a short letter telling him how unhappy I'd been and that I was seriously considering a new life without him. For some reason, that woke him up. He wanted to go to counseling. So, I agreed and we went to one who was a TOTAL waste of time. She said she "didn't know how to restore trust once it was broken". She also encouraged his IB and told him he should never have told me about how wonderful he thought this latest woman was.

I had looked at MB several years ago. We got the books, but H was totally against POJA. So, it failed, and I put it away. When the counselor didn't work out, I pulled out the old MB books. We took another look. He TRIED POJA but it still did not work for us. I had an OA. Once I calmed down, we revisited it, and I tied it to his playing golf. That seems to be working.

When we met, I had been D for two years. He was still married, but his ex had refused to relocate when he was transferred 2000 miles away (military), she had an affair, and subsequently filed for D.

You can always hit Notify and ask the MODS to merge your threads.

I couldn't find it where is it?

I can't find it, either! I looked for it under My Stuff. I was not there. It must be somewhere in cyberspace?!

I'll write it again, but it's long, so it will be a while.

Hey All,

I have revised my original EPs to reflect your suggestions. Please take a look and make any more suggestions you deem appropriate. BTW, H and I listened to the Harley broadcast today, all a out EPs. H knows his are coming.

EXTRAORDINARY PRECAUTIONS

FOCUS ON MARRIAGE
Follow, and follow through on
Policy of Joint Agreement
Policy of Radical Honesty
Policy of Undivided Attention
Extraordinary Precautions
EN's (MINE: Affection, Recreational Companionship YOURS: Affection, Sexual Fulfillment)
Avoid LB's (YOURS: Dishonesty, Independent Behavior MINE: Disrespectful Judgments, Selfish Demands)

FORMER AND POSSIBLE EAs AND PAs
Mary P (his ex)---No contact. Establish IM for any unavoidable contact
Billie---No contact
Pam---No contact. No visits to club when she probably will be there (MTTh), no walks around the neighborhood. Put house on market, if their house does not sell within 3 months.

OTHER WOMEN, IN GENERAL
No friendships with other women
No talking with them re personal subjects: likes, dislikes, our/their present or former marriages, personal history, no compliments, stay at least three feet away.
No flirting/joking around with them
Take down FB. Replace with joint FB account. Block Pam and Mary P.
No alone time with other women, friends, or not.
Nothing that can be construed as a "date"----no drinks, lunches, dinners, etc.

RECREATIONAL ACTIVITIES
Golf: only when POJA'd. Phone to be on at all times. Call me from 17th hole. Golf is subject to change, since IA is against MB principles.
No more nights apart after upcoming golf trip with the guys (April 2013). During trip, no frequenting places where "pick ups" are the norm. Call me at least once per day.
All other RAs will include me and be planned to be mutually enjoyable.
Continue to plan together on Sundays for RAs and appointments

ACCOUNTABILITY
Take polygraph test
Continue to keep PWs and UNs current
Continue to keep me informed of your whereabouts at all times. Call/tell me if plans need to be changed
Exchange phones at my request
If you get the urge to do something you don't want me to know about/ are not sure I would approve, call me BEFORE you do it.
Post-nup---agreeing to ALL assets transferred to me if you ever have an EA or PA again. (Saw this on another thread. Don't know if the person was serious, but it sounds tailer-made for us since $ is very important to H. Thoughts?)
Take MB online course together. Use the accountability tool.
After completion of course, consult with MB counselor as often as they deem necessary to stay on track.

Thanks, in advance, to all. You are AWESOME!

that looks incredibly thorough, sewer! i'm sure others will have comments, but here's mine.


i'm unclear of the timeline here. i hope you mean a post-nup NOW, with transfer of all assets NOW. point? he gets to have/use/keep all those things while you both are happily married. he loses all those things should you leave due to another a. i doubt you will be able to get transfer of assets later if he becomes ensconced in another a.

thesewer, can i ask you a non-mb Q? if you find me pesty, just say so

i'm a novice sewer - i've fooled around on quilt squares for a while, and i've made a few easy-sew stretch-lace tops. i'm trying now to sew a winter dress, and i've been reminded of a problem.

i often am doing something that results in the bobbin thread getting all snarled up and eating my fabric. i'm sure this has got to be some kind of noob error...any advice?

Letty,
I don't sew much anymore. But, when I had that problem with my sewing machine, it was because the tension on the bobbin was too loose.



Sewer,

I think your EPs look very inclusive. Do you think your H will be totally onboard or will he bristle at the restrictions on his "independent behavior"? Do the two of you have fun recreation time? Do you play golf? H and I do, but we are both equally terrible. Do you enjoy other activities together?

AM

Letty,
Re your sewing issue: I agree with ArmyMama. It most probably has to do with the bobbin tension. Different fabrics sometimes need different tensions. What I do, in the case of the issue is use a scrap of the same fabric and adjust the tension until the issue resolves. That way, I don't ruin my project. I hope that helps!

Re post nup: Yes, the post nup would be written now. In the case of yet another EA or PA, I would D H and the post nup would be used in division of assets.

ArmyMama,
I think H may bristle re a few things. Polygraph, post nup, and IM for ex are the ones I think H will find most problematic.

I have been very thorough because H finds ways to circumvent. "Oh, I didn't know you meant..." Or, "I didn't know it was that important to you."

I have included golf as a "carrot" because it does mean a lot to him. Loss of a game is a consequence for not following through on his agreements. He came up with that himself. So far, it has been working well.

He may be surprised at the restrictions placed re other women. The rest of them are things we have been doing for the past month, mostly. So, not many surprises.

I have considered suggesting H call SH, if he has issues with any of the EPs.

Yes, we have been doing more RC together. H often takes the lead for this, so that has not been an issue for over a month, now.

I don't play golf. Most of the senior women in our neighborhood don't play golf, either. Some of us (me included) took lessons when we first moved here. None of us wanted to continue! There is a senior men's league, which H belongs to, but no senior women's league. There is a women's league, which Pam belongs to, and they play T and Th. Men play MWF.

H and I have used the RC questionnaire. There are a number of 5's and 6's and we concentrate on those when making weekly plans. H has been totally on board for that.

Thank you both for all your input!

thank you ladies. i've gotten out my booklet to see how to adjust bobbin tension - youtube is a goldmine for this stuff!

it sounds like you're off to a good start, sewer! keep up that UA time, and don't back down on your EPs. keep the bar set high. waywards are like children. as soon as they see they are able to jiggle that bar, they will play with it until they are walking all over you.

but - when you keep your standards high, and recovery progresses, he will be too happy in your M to chafe at the loss of his old IB/poor boundary habits. at first, they don't see the pluses, only the minuses. but as time goes by what *fills* that space is far better than what they had before. that's when you'll see the man you fell in love with again. and *that's* what makes this all worth it.

Thank you, Letty!

I hope YouTube will work for you. What did we do before we had it?

You are SO RIGHT re keeping my standards high. H asked me how I would feel about his going for a walk around the 'hood this pm. Without thinking, I said, "Sure!" And then was on pins and needles the whole time he was gone. I revisited it when he came back, he said he didn't see the harm in it. I told him I was uncomfortable about it. I wish I could just go with him. Unfortunately, I have a "bum" foot. Walking up and down the hills are bad for it, so H and I have been going to a more level place away from the 'hood. It's inconvenient, though. Today, he wanted to take the more convenient route. Anyway, I asked him not to ask me to walk around here, anymore. He agreed. That was that...and no LBs!

Bottom line: I can't let down my guard. Something I need to work very hard on.

that's something we all work on. it's so easy sometimes to let them down. just...don't. the only person who pays for it is yourself.

what we did before youtube - i can't imagine!

I don't know about your "guard," but you will do much better by implementing PoRH, PoUA, and PoJA.


For this situation;


PoRH; You tell him you are not comfortable with him going out to walk without you.

PoUA; Both of you agree to spend all of your recreational time together.

PoJA; You brainstorm solutions until you find an alternative you BOTH enthusastically agree with.

*UPDATE*

My H has been looking at the boards. This has prompted him to write to Joyce Harley:
"My wife insists I have been having an affair. I have not. I have not seen this addressed on the boards. What can I do?"

Joyce has invited us to join them on their radio show. We have agreed. It will air on Thursday. Should be interesting!

Letty---
I agree re POJA. And we did agree to his not walking around the 'hood. But, H asked me anyway. I let down my guard and gave in. My bad!

I also agree re POUA. H refuses to give up golf. He says he does not want to look out the window and see everyone playing but him. (Boohoo!)

PORH---Yes, I told him I did not feel comfortable with his walking around the 'hood. That's why we did POJA. We came up with walking away from the 'hood. Worked til I gave in/let my guard down.

You see, he has trouble with following the POJA, even though he says he "enthusiastically agrees". I have trouble with his breaking the "agreement". Not only that, but giving in to his breaking it!

You are responsible for Radical Honesty within PoJA.


Your only response is; I am not enthusiastic. Conversation over.

It is then HIS job to demonstrate care for his wife by NOT doing something you are not enthusiastic about.

What he can do is take a polygraph!! That is an easy question to answer.

Believe it or not, he agreed to it---the day before he called Joyce. And the plot thickens...

Sewer,

Schedule the polygraph. A couple of days before the polygraph, give him a list of whatever questions you might have. At the polygraph appointment, ask two or three of those questions.

It is amazing what truths come out the day before the polygraph.

I look forward to hearing the radio show Thursday.

AM

There ya go! I would get the test scheduled. That will put an end to any doubts you had.

See, most waywards will initially AGREE to take the test thinking that will be enough to assure the spouse. But funny things start happening when they are informed the test has been scheduled. You should schedule the test.

Thank you all for your support! I absolutely WILL schedule the test.

There ya go!

Expect some sort of recovered memory right before the poly.
If he confesses ... do not cancel the test.

ArmyMama,
How do I present the questions to my H? Wouldn't he say he'd take his chances at the test itself? I can see him thinking, "Answering two or three of these questions is better than answering thirty or so. I don't need to reveal as much."

TS, hand him a list of questions that he must answer truthfully before the test. After you have his answers, then decide what questions to have the polygrapher ask him. Tell your husband that the test will focus on 3 questions fom your list but he won't know beforehand which ones.

Write out all your questions beforehand and get the answers.

There are good examples of questions and how other posters handled polygraphs in here.
Polygraph Testing

Did I misunderstand? I am listening to the radio show today and heard someone else on.

AM

Yes. We talked with Joyce this am. She had double-booked. So, we have rescheduled for Monday. Thanks for trying to listen. And sorry for the inconvenience it may have caused you. I should have posted this sooner.

Sewer,

No inconvenience here. My H and I often listen to the show together while having lunch. We'll tune in next week.

Did you schedule the poly?

AM

Not yet. But I have finished the questions. So, progress being made. Will work on finding someone from my area tomorrow, and if I find one in time to make the call, I will do it. It will be Friday, so would like to get the appointment scheduled before the weekend.

I also spent time writing a letter to Joyce in prep for Monday.

Just a note on the Poly. My wife agreed to a Poly after her infidelity. She broke down and confessed most prior to the test and some minor details just before.

We traveled about 2 hours from our home and I feel to this day found a very qualified examiner. The guy that conducted the test was a retired police investigator and actually taught others how to conduct the exam.

Anyway, my point here is I had more than 3-4 specific questions I hoped to have answered about my FWW affair.

He gave me the option to have 3-4 specific questions to ensure accuracy OR have my wife write out a statement covering various areas of her affair then my wife was simply asked while hooked up to the poly if her written statement was true and correct without any false information.

If she was intentially lieing in her statement I was confident the test would have showed it.

Also just be on alert to changes in your H attitude after scheduling the test. Mybwife admitted at one point while in the "fog" that it had crossed her mind to just agree to the test and try to beat it before being honest...

glad to hear you're working on the poly. will make an effort to listen to the show on tuesday. i am keen to hear what the harley's will say, but am putting my money on


however, if they've spoken with you, sewer, about EAs, i hope they will talk to your H about what those are and how they hurt a M.

Hey, Letty

Thank you for your wise words. I take them to heart <3

I, too, am looking forward to MB radio. It's on Monday, though I think it will still be available on Tuesday am.

Our "Monday" is Letty's "Tuesday".

Ah, she lives outside of the US? That would explain it

Anyway, Harleys have offered to be our "accountability coaches". That's INVALUABLE to me because I'm tired of being the one. It should eliminate my LBs. Yay!

Ah, she lives outside of the US? That would explain it.

Yeah, it's either that or she has access to some really EPIC pharmaceuticals.

Sewer,

H and I heard the radio show yesterday. What a gift from the Harley's to have that individual attention.

AM

Yes. Harley's are great!

We now have an appointment for Poly. It will be the 22nd. You are right. I am seeing some changes. H said, tonight, that if he doesn't pass, he thinks we should get a D.

Interesting. Anyone else get that reaction?

Shall I translate?

"If I don't pass the polygraph, I think we should get a divorce!"

is wayward-scumbag speak for:

"Don't make the questions too difficult, or probing, because WHEN I fail, giving me no place to hide, I'll give up on the marriage."

You should have given him a question he would definitely have passed to show that your intentions are aboveboard. How?

You kick him squarely in the man-jewels as hard as you can, and then ask, "Did that hurt?"

ROTFLMAO!!!!You guys kill me! Thanks for helping me keep my sense of humor, to say nothing of my sanity!

Sewer,

I can't recall that reaction from anyone here before.

I think NG is correct in his assessment. Your husband is lying and is worried the polygraph will identify his lie(s). Then, he will have to change his lifestyle, become totally transparent and give up his independent behavior.

AM

Yes, I agree with AM and NG. I think H is under the impression the MB principles, especially avoiding IB, Dishonesty, POJA, and EPs cease if he passes and continue if he doesn't pass.

We have been doing things together per IDd RAs, but no matter what they are, he doesn't enjoy as much as golf and tennis

TS, it is best to make up a list of all your questions and give him the list BEFORE the test. Tell him he has one last chance to come clean before the test but that you fully expect him to pass the test. So if there is anything he needs to tell you, he needs to do it NOW, well before the test. We can help you with a list of questions. Ask as many questions as you want. The polygraph tester will likely only ask 3 questions, but your H won't know which questions until the test.

ML,

The Polygrapher told me not to discuss these other women with my H because it could skew the results. I know MB says to write the questions and give to H a few days before. So, now I'm not sure what to do!

Then you are unlikely to ever get the truth. Just think, if the polygrapher asks "have you ever had sex with any other woman than your wife" and he answers no and flunks, you still don't know what happened, do you? He can just say polygraphs are unreliable and blow you off. And then what will you?

The tester is dismissing the entire benefit of confession. Most people hate flunking polygraphs and you should be leveraging that to get the truth. If you don't, I don't see the point of all this.

I totally agree with you. I asked the Polygrapher the same question and did not get an answer. I'm going to go ahead and do it anyway. If you guys can do it, and get to the bottom of it, then I should be able to, also.

Today, my H has gas lighted me. Briefly,

We went to the fitness center together. As we were getting into the car to go home, a woman was getting into her car which was parked next to ours. He smiled at her and either mouthed or said "hi" to her. I asked him who she was. He said he did not know her. So, I said, "I saw you smile and say 'hi' to her, so I figured you know who she is." He vehemently denied smiling or saying "hi" to her. I said, "Telling me you did not do something I SAW YOU DO makes my blood boil." He denied it, again. I left it at that, deciding to document for Dr. H to see. My problem is not with what he did but that he lied about it. He brought it up again and said I should have the Polygrapher ask the question. At first, I said, "Ok." Later, I told him he does not get to decide what the questions would be, and neither do I.

I have asked him other times who he waved to when we passed people in the car and he has never responded like this. So, I don't think it is that I asked him nor the way I asked him.

My question is:

As part of our plan with Dr. H, I am supposed to have scheduled sex with H. It was scheduled for yesterday, but H chose not to. (Not POJAd. Just chose not to and I did not push it. We were pretty tired from an outing.) But, H wants it today. Because of the above incident, I really don't want to. Because of what I agreed to in the plan, do I need to do it, anyway?

Yuck. I would not let him touch me with a 10' pole after he just lied to my face. I would vomit.

Are you making up your list of questions?

Thank you, ML!

Yes, I am making my list of questions. H is leaving in the am for his golf trip. He'll be back on Thursday. So, that gives me plenty of time to work with y'all on it

One of the most basic MB extraordinary precautions is to never be separated overnight. Golf trips until Thursday are nothing to be happy about.

Agree. Of course, Mr Sewer insists he has never had an affair.

AM

You are totally correct. This trip was already planned months ago, the guys are carpooling, rooming with each other, golfing together, eating together, etc. EP says no more trips after this one. And I will be sticking to it.

I've been working on polygraph questions. Please let me know if I am on the right track. To date, I have the following:

YOUR EX, DURING OUR MARRIAGE INCLUDING THE TIMES WE WERE SEPARATED
Did you kiss her?
Did you fondle her?
Did you see her private parts?
Did she see your private parts?
Did you touch any of your erogenous zones?
Did she touch any of your erogenous zones?
Did you touch any of her erogenous zones?
Did you have sexual intercourse with her?
Do you still have romantic feelings when you see her?
BUSINESS TRIPS WHILE YOU WERE WORKING, INCLUDING 7 MONTHS IN LA
Did you discuss your present/former marriage with any other women, not including your ex (face-to-face, email, phone, letters/cards/memos/notes or any other kind of communication)?
Did you spend time with any OW doing anything that might be construed as a date---having drinks, walks, meals, dancing, golf, etc?
Did you kiss any OW?
Did you fondle any OW?
Did you see private parts of any OW?
Did any OW see your private parts?
Did you touch any OW erogenous zones?
Did any OW touch any of your erogenous zones?
Did you have sexual intercourse with any OW?
Did you have romantic feelings toward any OW?
JOB
Did you discuss your present/former M with any OW besides your ex and Billie, including face-to-face,email, phone, letters/notes/cards/memos or any other types of communication?
Did you spend time with any OW doing anything that might be construed as a date---having drinks, meals, walks, dancing, golf, etc?
Did you have romantic feelings for Billie?
Did you have romantic feelings for any OW besides Billie?
Do you still have romantic feelings for Billie?
Do you still have romantic feelings for any OW besides Billie?
Did you kiss Billie?
Did you kiss any OW?
Did you fondle Billie?
Did you fondle any OW?
Did you see Billie's private parts?
Did you see the private parts of any other woman?
Did Billie see your private parts?
Did any OW see your private parts?
Did you touch any of Billie's erogenous zones?
Did you touch any OW erogenous zones?
Did Billie touch any of your erogenous zones?
Did any OW touch any of your erogenous zones?
Did you have sexual intercourse with Billie?
Did you have sexual intercourse with any OW?
PAST FIVE YEARS
Did you discuss our M with Pam_____?
Did you discuss our M with any other woman (not including marital therapist)?
Have you spent time with Pam_____ doing anything that might be construed as a date?
Have you spent time with any OW doing anything that might be construed as a date?
Have you kissed Pam?
Have you kissed any OW?
Have you fondled Pam?
Have you fondled any OW?
Have you seen Pam's private parts?
Have you seen any OW's private parts?
Has Pam seen your private parts?
Has any OW seen your private parts?
Have you touched any of Pam's erogenous zones?
Have you touched any OW's erogenous zones?
Have you had sexual intercourse with Pam?
Have you had sexual intercourse with any OW?
Have you had romantic feelings for Pam?
Have you had romantic feelings for any OW besides Pam?
Do you still have romantic feelings for Pam?
Do you still have romantic feelings for any OW?

Are you corresponding with any OW in any other way (Facebook, chat rooms, dating sites, etc)?

Have you answered all the above questions truthfully?

Ok. That's a LONG list. Question: Would the longer the list the less likely I get at the truth? I'm thinking in terms of mathematical probabilities.

I thought polys could only have 3 questions?

I think the idea was to give the list to H a couple of days before so that he could "come clean". The poly is for just 1-5. But, feedback is needed.

Looks good!

Thanks ML.

I still have this nagging doubt that H will look at law of averages and figure he can fudge on a few and not get caught. (There are ___ number of questions. The odds of a particular question being asked on the poly are one out of ____ number of questions.) So, I guess I'm looking for feedback on that concern, too.

You will want to focus the polygraph on areas where you still have suspicions. If you suspect that he is trying to beat it, then that defeats the entire purpose. He will need to prove to you that he is being radically honest. This is his one chance. I think he believes he can lie and do whatever he wants and you won't do anything about it. Will you do anything about it?

Thank you, ML.

I think you have hit the nail on the head. I think H thinks I will do nothing. On Sat., we were on an outing for UA. He flirted with two women. I called him on it and he said he didn't know how to flirt! Gaslighting, big time. (I'm trying not to vomit!)

Dr. H is our accountability coach. I am documenting all of this. Right now, I think he's on H's side. I "don't make it safe for H to be honest". Maybe Dr. H will change his mind. Maybe not. If he does not, I think our marriage is doomed!

I am thinking of Plan A for three weeks, then Plan B. I'm already considering places to live. Have not made up my mind to try to stay in the area or move to be closer to my son and his family. There are pros and cons to each.

Please describe this event (the flirting) in detail.
It is important.
Thanks.

Dr H knows what it takes from both spouses to recover. He does not take "sides".
Dr H is on the "side" of your marriage.
Yours is an immature remark.

Ok. I'll take the hit. I do wish Dr. H had talked more about IB, though.

About the flirting:
Not joking around with other women is one of the identified EPs. He tries to be "cute".
1. Remarking to the ticket taker how "smart" he was to find her. They laughed together about both being "smart".
2. Asking restaurant patron "Do you come here often?" They laughed together about it.

I thought UA was supposed to be about H and W spending time together to meet each other's needs. It's not supposed to involve other people, right? I felt very disrespected, not only by the joking around/flirting, but also his taking phone calls, texting, and constant checking of his email. I asked him calmly to please let this few hours together be about us after the first phone call. I said nothing more about his IB after that until we got home and were discussing the day. Trying to remain calm while he continued the behaviors.

I do think the thing about H's not being honest because I "don't make it safe for him" is a problem. I have tried to make it safe. I have told and shown my H that if he is truthful, I will not get angry. The problem comes when we try to resolve the issue.

For example, H told me how wonderful the possible OW is. I think I did a commendable job of remaining calm. But, this is also when I started feeling insecure and inadequate. I went to MB. I discovered that EPs should have been put into place years ago, when he ended his first affair. So, the "revelation" started the ball rolling on EPs. He is not happy about that. So, I have "not made it safe".

Can you give an example of what an unsafe environment would be for him? From what you've said so far, it sounds like he's saying that the EPs make it unsafe and that doesn't make sense.

Wow777,

Yes. The reason it made it unsafe from his point of view is that he has been curtailed from IBs. For example, every year, including right now, he has been used to going on a several day golf trip with the guys. One of the essential parts of EPs is no more nights apart. So, after this trip, he won't be doing that anymore.

Also, he has been used to golf three times per week and tennis twice per week. Tennis was a mixed group. Possible OW is part of that group. No more tennis.
He looked into getting into another group, but has not found an all male group.

And, getting 15 hours/week UA with me would be difficult for him to do with all of his IB activities.

Sewer,

Have you and your husband completed the recreational companionship questionnaire to identify things that you both enjoy doing? If your husband stops his independent recreational activities without have something to replace them, he will not be happy. If he is having fun doing things with you, he will not miss the tennis or all that golf.



AM



AM

Thank you, ArmyMama.

Yes. We completed the questionnaire. He still was not happy with some of the things we did together. So, I said, how about YOU decide what those things will be?

The arboretum was HIS idea. I was in Enthusiastic Agreement, too. He said HE had a wonderful time.

Here's your show.
Radio Clip of Sewer's Show
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4
Segment #5

Thank you so much, BrainHurts!

I listened several times that day and took notes. But, it's always good to listen again to see if I might have missed something. I had no way to do that, til now.

You're welcome.

That seems more inconvenient than unsafe. Soomething like making him stand on a busy street corner with a sandwich board sign that said "I cheated on my wife" would be unsafe for him.

EPs are inconvenient because they make the WS change their behavior and PROTECT the BS. These are the things that make the relationship SAFE for you. Stand your ground on them and tell him to man up (in an MB way of course) and start protecting you.

Thank you, wow

The IBs are a HUGE problem. He appears to be unwilling to see it. We are writing back and forth, right now, about it. (Don't want to have an AO, so that's how we are handling it.)

He does not "get" that emailing, phone calls, joking with other women, etc. are not Undivided Attention. So, from my perspective, he was not making love bank deposits. He was making love bank withdrawals. That, along with his golf trip, made MASSIVE love bank withdrawals. We had zero UA this week, aside from a few phone calls.

Does he know the concept of the Love Bank? My W read SAA but it seemed nothing was changing. Now, when we talk about the relationship, I only use MB terms like love bank, love busters, deposits & withdrawals. It's very clear and gets my point across. Because they aren't "my" words, then it seems less controlling to her.

In the beginning, and even still, I have to keep reiterating that my EPs are simply the boundaries that I am willing to live within to stay married. It's where I feel safe. W still doesn't like them much, but everytime they come up, I say, "I need them to feel safe. If we can't both feel safe in the M, we can't be married". I think theres still some fog/denial in her because at times, she thinks we are, or should be, further along. She wants this behind us NOW but I keep telling her, it'll happen when I'm ready to put it there.

Be calm and keep telling your H that your EPs are for YOU to feel safe. If he wants you safe, then they will be followed willingly.

Do you golf or play tennis? If not, maybe he could teach you. That would be excellent UA time.

Standing on a street corner with a sign that says, I cheated on my spouse COULD be dangerous...like people throwing eggs, or worse...lol!

I have TRIED tennis and golf, took a couple of series of lessons for golf, played tennis ONCE with my H (at which time I was told I was not good enough and he needed to find a different tennis partner. That hurt so bad, that I still get upset when I think about it.) So, we do other things for UA, but still have not found an activity we can do on a regular basis.

Yes, H knows the concepts, vaguely. He has "sort of'" read Dr. H's concepts.

Update on our back-and-forth letter writing:
We have agreed on future UA behaviors, all without any AOs, on my part! So proud of myself We agreed to no electronic devices and no joking around with OW. When/if he follows through, I will be proud of him, too!

HELP!

H refuses to come clean with questions before polygraph. I told him it was an opportunity to come clean. He says it would just make him angry. He says he is angry that I don't trust him.

Not really surprised that he would refuse to answer. But, what next?

Let him know you are willing to give him an opportunity to EARN your trust and this is the first step. But trust is not a welfare entitlement and he is not a welfare mama. Just let him know you need the answers to all of these questions to move forward. Then calmly leave the room. If he won't answer the questions he is admitting he has something to hide and is not serious about being trustworthy. His refusal should tell you everything you need to know.

If he wants to be trusted, then he has to earn it. This is the first step in earning your trust. The problem is that you DON'T trust him because he has not earned it.

Just think, if your spouse didn't trust you and you had nothing to hide wouldn't you JUMP at the chance to clear your name?

When he proclaims "you don't trust me!!!" Just politely agree with him. When my H pulled the "you don't trust me!!!" card on me, I said "no shytt, Sherlock!!" He never pulled that again!

here

EXACTLY what I am thinking, ML! (I did not tell him that, though. Just kept quiet to allow him to think about it.). Told him later,

that if we cannot be O & H, it bodes badly for our marriage. He said he hadn't thought it was part of the poly and has had a change of heart. So, he has become willing..

You should be telling him that! Being "quiet" is not being honest.

In negotiation strategy there is a tactic called "The limitations of a higher authority", in which one party says to the other, "Yes, I'd LOVE to grant you those terms, but my boss would fire me on the spot on learning of that decision."

In a similar, but not identical, vein, to prevent head-on spouse-vs-spouse "you-don't-trust-me" conflicts, casually reference that as much as you (the neophyte) WANT to trust him, the heartless (experienced) b@$+@rds here will have no part of any such capitulation.

Then drop the subject for a while.....but let him see you researching the divorce laws in your jurisdiction.

Yes. I totally agree!

We had our convo re poly questions. He was forthcoming about one EA. But, there are a number of incidents I "jogged his memory" about. I told him after our convo that if he thought of anything else related to the questions that he had forgotten, to please let me know. I asked him if he felt our convo felt threatening to him, and he said it hadn't.

If any of you b@$+@rds out there have any other suggestions, fire away!

And thank you, from the bottom of my heart, for all your help, so far.

Well, he PASSED the poly. I guess that should make me happy. But, the revelation of his EA is beginning to hit me

Interesting observation that the Polygrapher made: He said that H came into the room extremely angry. He also said that H has a strong need to control. H even tried to control how the poly was going to be done. Polygrapher said he had to tell H that HE was in charge of the poly. He also said that he has rarely seen such behavior in someone who was about to take a poly. And he's had a lot of experience with all types, including major prisoners. (Polygrapher has done work for Nancy Grace, for example). He said that based on H behavior, he was SURE, before the test, that H "was guilty as hell". After the test, he made sure H was calmed down both before he had me come into the room and after I came in. I guess H let his true colors show, a rare thing except with me, and why I get so upset when therapists don't see what the Polygrapher and I saw/see.

Well, scratch that about the Polygrapher. Apparently, he asked H why he would want to be married to someone who did not trust him and would make him take the test. So, now H says he wants a D.

I seriously doubt the polygrapher said that. I am sorry that your husband would rather divorce you than assure you of his honesty. In my opinion, that is not a marriage worth saving. Sorry.

I agree. I doubt the polygrapher made that comment. Other than for employment purposes, one of the biggest reasons for a polygraph is marital infidelity.

Has your H mentioned divorce before?

AM

Quote ABOVE

VS.

Quote BELOW


Even if he DID say this to your husband, I wouldn't be concerned about it. He was probably trying to get your husband to calm down or confess or be less embarrassed by playing GOOD COP/BAD COP. He is obviously experienced with law enforcement and manipulation. He knew that he was working for you. Just a means to an end.

Thank you, Didn'tQuit.

Yes, the thought did cross my mind that the Polygrapher was using tactics. In fact, he told me he would. I just did not expect that. H has calmed down quite a bit since he made that comment about divorce.

I also got some meds for depression and anxiety this pm, so I have calmed down, too. No more 3 am "talks" with H. That's counterproductive, of course. Dr. has a WONDERFUL nurse who talked with me, too. So, better, today.

Hey,wrote the following earlier, but it somehow ended up somewhere in cyberspace. So, I will try again. Also, in between, you answered jlkb's post. Thank you for answering so well and so quickly. He says he will write a reply later.

So, here's what I wrote Harleys a couple of days ago. Still waiting for a reply from them. So,I thought that maybe, in the meantime, you might make some suggestions, as well:

Dear Harleys,
I am attaching my email of 4/8 so that you might remember us from your radio show on that date. At the end of the show, you kindly offered to serve as our Accountability Coaches. You asked that we check back with you in one month. It has now been a little over one month.

We have somewhat improved. H quit golf after his golf after his golf trip. We are spending quality time together. After I started taking antidepressants and anti anxiety meds, I have had no further AOs. [Have to interject here that I did have one, yesterday.] My needs for affection and recreational activity have been met. His needs for affection and SF have also been met, except for those times he has been angry with me. His choice to not have SF. But, he still continues dishonesty and independent behavior, though to a lesser degree.

[The next two paragraphs have to do with H's resentment over EP's. I think you have already addressed that issue with jlkb.]

...When one of H's friends asked him why he quit golf, he told that friend, "W says we have been growing apart, so I have to quit playing." I may be paranoid about this, but I feel the blame has been put entirely on me and the whole neighborhood is saying, "Poor H. W is such a ___." I don't know how to handle this and need your help, please.

During the radio show, we also discussed the POJA. I was told I was "not making it safe for him", and that was why he would "capitulate". I have worked very hard to make it safe and H agrees that I have made it safe. Yet, we are still struggling with my following the "enthusiastic agreements" we have made, and H not following through on his part. He continues to say he "will do better next time." I am growing mighty weary of this.

I'm sorry this is such a long email [the rest not pertinent to the forum]

W

PS I have offered H the opportunity to read this [email to Harleys] but he has declined.

It's been awhile since I have posted. If you want to read my previous posts, the title is "Extraordinary Procautions---Opinions Please". I don't seem to have the energy to repost it all &#128542;

To make a very long story short, my H has had at least two emotional affairs in the 24 years we have been married. With Dr. H's advice, we have implemented EP's. My H halfheartedly follows them, except he still flirts with other women. He says EP's make him feel like a 3-year-old and resents following them. I have not found this attitude expressed anywhere else on this forum, so I am hoping someone will help me figure out how to handle it.

He has posted, as well, a while back, and was taken to task by those who responded. So now, he tells me he knows he's an ***hole like they said, but he still resents EPs.

What next? Anybody?

You don't have to repost the thread...just add to it instead of making a new thread.

Bumping for TheSewer.

Your H must learn never to flirt with women. He simply must stop it, because it's so offensive to you and dangerous to your marriage. He can develop the habit of always acting in a reserved manner with women, calling them Ms. Last Name, never discussing anything personal with them, and certainly never making any personal compliments.

Has he agreed to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement with you and the Policy of Radical Honesty? How is this process coming along?

How did you discover that he still flirts? Does he tell you? Do you see it?

Does he follow all the other EPs? Does he understand that EPs are to prevent another affair from ever happening again?

Thank you, LongWayFromHome.

Yes. He flirts with them in front of me and ignores me in favor of them. So, it's not a stretch to believe he flirts behind my back, as well.

He follows the POJA. But, as I understand it, EPs are non-negotiable. He did SAY he agreed to them when I presented them to him. It is also my understanding that the WS will try to renegotiate, but I must not give in.

He says he is following the PORH when he tells me that he resents them.

Yes, he follows the EPs except for the flirting.

Your H is being very uncaring. You're correct: EPs are not negotiable. Flirting is offensive to you, and a caring husband would STOP flirting. Since he has already had two affairs, he MUST stop flirting, because it is often the first step in an affair.

Even if he had never had an affair, his flirting would be an offense to you. Flirting would be an offense to most wives.

If your H will not stop flirting, then you should consider preparing for a separation, because he's acting in a very uncaring way toward you.

Even if he were to stop flirting, he would still tell me he resents them and that, at some point, he should be able to stop doing EPs.

How do I handle the resentment part?

That's ok, because the greater risk is your resentment. That is the greater risk. Let him know you may not feel so resentful if he stops. It will take time but if he tries hard to make it up to you with a safe, loving approach it will eventually fade. Flirting has no place in marriage and is profoundly disrespectful to you.

Let him know you will stay married to him as long as EPs are in place since their absence means you are not safe. You are not willing to be unsafe again.

He is not following POJA. Are you enthusiastic about his flirting? Of course not. So, he shouldn't do it. *That* is following POJA.

Flirting is a form of courting and if he does that, I would plan to separate from him. My DH also had a bad flirting habit and I gave him an opportunity to stay married to me if he stopped.

Not to mention that flirting is a HUGE lovebuster for the offended spouse. Yuck!!

Oh. Thank you, ML.

I think I get it now. So, basically, ignore his whining (lol) and continue on course, except for the flirting. He did tell me he was going to "try" to stop the flirting. I know it's part of his personality and a very bad habit. Old habits are hard to break, but he must, I agree!

"Try??" Ok, "try" is a weasel word used by people who have no intention of quitting. I would not accept that!!! He won't get out of the habit if he doesn't STOP. And he can't stop he needs to stay away from females.

He needs to STOP flirting now. Saying he will "try" doesn't cut it.

TS, you need to start holding this fella accountable and stop tolerating his disrespectful, cruel behavior. That is part of the problem.

"know it's part of his personality and a very bad habit. Old habits are hard to break, but he must, I agree!"

You are in the bad habit of allowing this...

To add: My H also had a bad habit of flirting with women. He had to learn a whole new way of relating to them. We play acted a lot and I set up scenarios for us to work through, until he had a kind of script to follow.

He has to call women by either Ms. Last Name or First Name.

No personal compliments ever, nothing about their appearance or their personality. Workplace compliments are okay,such as praising for a job well done.

He must stand an arm's length away, even stepping back, if necessary.

He simply had to learn to act in a more reserved manner toward and with women. No more easy familiarity.

And he did it, too, with a few bumps and hiccups along the way. He did resent it a bit at first, but my resentment would be much worse. I was prepared with an escape plan if he continued.

I am the husband. I admit that I had an emotional affair with my ex. She wanted
To get back together and said she was going to re-marry otherwise. I did not care- in fact
It seemed a good idea. My critical mistake was to continue to talk with her about her problems behind my wife's back. Had I just stopped talking with my ex, most of our current problems could have been avoided and been better for my ex as well. At the time I rationalized that we never lived closer than 800 miles. The second "emotional affair" was with a female co-worker I worked with on and off for about 8 years. At times we did discuss our personal relationships but mostly it was about catching up with each other on what others we knew were doing. A few times we ate lunch together in the company cafeteria, but others were eating with us. That relationship ended 10 years ago. I will admit that those in the forum who call me an [censored] and a jerk are right. I am trying to live up to me wife's EPs, but I believe they are excessive considering how long ago these things happened. I do resent having to ask my wife to use my phone and check e-mail. My solution was to try giving me a phone that has no other function. That way I can use the phone without asking permission and she can check on-line to see all calls to and from the phone. That is unacceptable. One iis not supposed to negotiate EPs once established.

Ok. That was interesting.

Of course, he left out a lot of stuff. The EA's lasted 12 years and 8 years, respectively. He talked to these women about intimate details about OUR marriage. It was not until last night that H admitted that these EAs were affairs. For years, he demanded that I "get over it". No help from him, of course.

I found Dr. H's site a few months ago. And I sought his, and your, help at that time. EPs have been in place for 3-4 months, I think.

I will continue to enforce EPs and ignore his whining. I am taking ADs and anti-anxiety meds. Forgot to take the ADs last night, so had an AO today. I know that is not acceptable. So, I will make sure to take ADs every day. Anti-anxietys are to be taken "as needed". I have no refills, so use them when I feel an AO coming. &#128513;

One last question, though: Aside from calling H on his flirting, which does not work, how do you suggest I put an end to the flirting?

Yikes, this was my WxH. When confronted, he would react similarly to your H.

You can see from my signature line how it ended.

If he flirts in front of you, he does NOT follow POJA. If he followed POJA, there would be no need to discuss EPs. He would understand that you don't like him flirting and he would stop it.

Here's what Dr Harley told a poster when she asked him about her H not respecting her request that he not attend co-ed AA meetings:



http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2418611

I wrote to Dr Harley on the private forum about my WxH's flirting and this was something he said that I thought applied to your situation:

I am going to say this and hope that I'm wrong. I think your husband is actively seeking an affair. That is making him foggy and ignore the pain he has/is inflicting upon you. If this is true the educating him will be fruitless because it is coming from the person trying to ruin his fun, YOU. I think you should email the radio show and offer to be a guest and have your husband on as well. That way you won't have to be a broken record you can have Dr. Harley do that for you lol.

That is some very interesting logic. The purpose of extraordinary precautions is to prevent an affair from happening in the FUTURE, it has nothing to do with the past. For example, if I get hit by a car playing chicken in 2003, will I be safe playing chicken in 2013 just because I have not been hit for a few years?


Why don't you brainstorm solutions with her? Keep in mind the main purpose is to protect her from another affair.

And do you really flirt? That should be a deal breaker. Flirting is a form of courting and is extremely disrespectful to your wife. It is also C.R.E.E.P.Y. puke when a married man flirts. Do you know what most women call you behind your back? DIRTY OLD MAN!!! yuck!! Only the most desperate of old broads find that appealing. Please stop doing that to YOURSELF and your wife.

ROTFLMAO!!!!

With my H at age 70, yup Dirty Old Man! Thanks for lifting my spirits &#128522;

I'm not sure i understand about brainstorming solutions. Aren't EPs nonnegotiable? Anyway, for what it's worth, the original EP was to let me see his emails when he looked at them. This went to Hell in a hand basket. He would go into the kitchen and, with his back to me, look at his emails. After several days of this, and my requesting that he not look at his emails without me, and his disregarding my requests, I took it upon myself to change his PW. Now, he CAN'T check w/o my being right there with him. So, he behaved himself into the present circumstances that he hates. Oh WELL!!

TS, I removed this post, but will you allow me to email you a question? If so, please hit notify and send the mods your email address and ask them to send it to me. Thanks!

TheSewer's Husband: Why don't you start your own thread, so we can discuss things with you separately from TS's thread? I know I am getting confused over who is saying what, when everything comes up under TS's name.

If you've already done so, please disregard this message

Yes. I just sent it. Thank you!

My H sent only the one post in which he ID'd himself. He started a thread some time ago after my repeated requests. He felt bombarded with negativity, so would not respond. I doubt he will in the future.

Oh, I missed that. Thanks for letting me know.

Just a comment, though - if he wants to make a post, he needs to do it on his own thread. Not yours.

If you want to tell me his posting name, I'll be happy to tell him that

Yes. I will tell him not to post on my thread, anymore. I can see how it would be confusing. I did not know he was doing it until I saw him doing it. And was not allowed to read it til it was posted. (I didn't try that hard to ask him. It really did not bother me.) But, it won't happen again if I have anything to say about it.

So what are you going to do to make your BW feel safe been married to you?

Hi, TS,

When I read your husband's thread on this post, I thought "Oh! I know the perfect radio show from Dr. Harley to address this."

Then I tracked down your husband's thread, and I saw that I've already posted it to him!

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2731451#Post2731451

Let me ask - did he ever bother to listen to the radio show I posted?

It does not bode well for recovery when a husband is not willing to invest much effort in learning and following the program.