Marriage Builders
Posted By: carsandkidz how do I compete with facebook? - 11/15/13 12:35 AM
I've read everything I can seem to get my hands on, trying to figure out what to do and I'm coming up empty on one specific area.

First, I'm 34, married for 8 yrs, together for 11, have 3 kids. My wife is a stay at home mom that I neglected emotionally for a long time. I have no problem owning my part and want to follow the marriagebuilders program because it's right and I'm sure it will teach us to have a good relationship. My issue is, she is in the withdrawal stage. Won't talk about anything, wants to find herself, etc. She spends 10-12 hours a day on facebook, using this to fulfill her need for conversation. Since I can't get through to her right now anyway, how do I compete with facebook to fulfill her need for conversation? Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
Posted By: alis Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/15/13 12:47 AM
You aren't competing with Facebook, you are competing with a man behind the screen - she is not spending 10/12 hours a day talking about recipes. She is having an affair. Have you read the infidelity materials?
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/15/13 12:52 AM
I haven't. She's not sleeping with anyone, so I guess it's an emotional affair? Where do I find what I need to read?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/15/13 01:27 AM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
I haven't. She's not sleeping with anyone, so I guess it's an emotional affair? Where do I find what I need to read?
Do you have her passwords?

Put a keylogger on her computer and spyware on her phone.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/15/13 10:42 AM
How do you know how long she is on there for?

What is she doing?
Posted By: MrAlias Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/15/13 01:17 PM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
I haven't. She's not sleeping with anyone, so I guess it's an emotional affair? Where do I find what I need to read?

Pick nearly any thread on the Surviving an Affair thread and you'll get some clear directions on how to snoop.

For now you could ask the Mods to move this thread to that section until you rule out an affair. Ruling out an A is job #1.
Posted By: Gamma Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/15/13 03:13 PM
CandK,

Has she mentioned anyone from her past, could have been a year ago??? At the time it may have seemed innocent to you.

God Bless
Gamma
Posted By: Doormat_No_More Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/15/13 04:14 PM
If she's not having an active emotional affair -- that's a big "if"! -- then it's possible to draw her out of withdrawal. Expect her to segue into Conflict if you engage her; that's a POSITIVE sign!

Here are some ideas I've used.
  • Sit next to her while she's Facebooking. Explain "I just want to spend time with my wife." If you need to drag in a chair from another room to do so, do so. This will apparently ANNOY her. That's totally OK. Annoyance is Conflict instead of Withdrawal. And if you keep up "annoying" her by talking with her, asking her opinion, and spending time researching the stuff she likes to talk about, that "annoyance" can change to appreciation... if there's no other man in the picture.
  • Create activities involving you and the kids right there in the room with her while she's Facebooking. Gather them near her and you and read stories, or depending on their ages, talk about the news or ask your wife for input on interesting things she's seen on Facebook and ask the kids what they think about them.
  • Make sure you're on Facebook, too. Friend her. Tag her. Write posts on her wall and your own talking about fun things going on in your life and how often you think of her. Scan photos of the two of you together and tag her in them for everyone to see as a "public" tag. Remind her of fun things you've done together: "Hey, I saw this photo, it reminded me of our trip to X in 2008. That was so awesome, we should do it again soon!" or whatever. Talk about her in an upbeat way with your Facebook friends (make sure your settings allow her and possibly any emotional affair partner to see exactly what you're saying), mentioning how much you love her, are grateful for her, and are so glad that you're married to such a wonderful person. Talking about how you look forward to being old people together in funny ways helps, too!
    You're creating a very specific image here. People in EAs are living in a fantasy world. They imagine an easy divorce. They convince their partner, usually, that they are going through a divorce. You want to publicly burst that bubble if possible by indicating how devoted you are to her, how much you love her, and how much you look forward to growing old together in a life-long, monogamous, happy marriage.
  • Invite her to go with you to do fun things, particularly if they are things she enjoys: favorite activities, favorite foods, etc. "Hi, sweetie. I'm heading to the gym in a few minutes. Want to come?" "I'd love to see that new romantic comedy in the theater. It shows at six tonight. Want me to get us a couple of tickets?" "Man, I've been jonesing for some chicken wings lately. How about you? There's a Wingers just down the street, want to go get some together?"
    CREATE OPPORTUNITIES TO DEPOSIT LOVE UNITS. And in some cases, you simply go yourself -- often taking the kids if she won't come with you -- to create fun times without her. Then let her know what a good time you had if she didn't come with you, and invite her to have those good times with you next time.
  • Refrain from all Love Busters: demands, disrespect, angry outbursts, annoying habits, etc. You can't build her love toward you if you're draining it faster than you're depositing it.
  • Engage in "Plan A". http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html . The above suggestions are in line with such an approach.
  • Snoop like mad, but do not disclose to her in any way that you are doing so for the time being unless you've PROVEN there cannot possibly be any emotional or physical affair going on. The above poster suggestions she's having an affair are spot-on. My wife is a heavy Facebook user, and she only gets on about an hour or two a day at most on the heavy-usage days; it's extremely difficult to deposit any Love Units with someone who's engaged in an emotional affair. "Normal" Facebook usage is about like "normal" TV watching: a couple of hours a day is understandable but a bit heavy. All day long indicates there is definitely something else going on.


Good luck. I'd love to know the results when you try any of these suggestions. Creating a fun, vibrant life and routinely inviting her to be part of it really helps to draw people out of Withdrawal.

But remember: you will almost ALWAYS go through Conflict first. Your attempts to draw her back into your life will create angry responses. Prepare yourself for it. Think through the scenario first and plan your calm, upbeat response to her anger. Don't let her draw you into angry responses; instead, an empathetic response is good: "I totally understand how that upsets you. I'd be upset in similar circumstances. I like chocolate when I'm upset, and there's a Rocky Mountain Chocolate Factory right around the corner. Want me to call a babysitter and we can go right over there and talk?"
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/15/13 08:14 PM
thanks for the advice.

I've done my snooping, have a keylogger program. I know all the people she's talking to, there is no affair with any one particular person, rather a group of about 25 people in the neighborhood.

She is bored and lazy, stuck at home all day, doesn't see the reward in motherhood, no longer does any of the housework she used to, wants to be 21 forever and can't. She says(on fb) her life is boring except for the weekends, when she can party like a rock star. I am trying to stay involved, constantly active on fb with her and the friends. Can't do anything about the private messages, but all the posts I include myself. All the people she talks to, I talk to, they know we're married and only one(a lady) knows we are having problems. I go to all the parties with her(at neighbor's houses). I'm working on trying to deposit love units, maybe too hard, but the opportunities are slim since she's shut down to me. I now have her sharing the fb posts with me when I get home at night.

Does plan A work when there's not a single person involved, but a group?
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/15/13 08:37 PM
@indiegirl- I can see her facebooking, her comments are constant and start from the time she wakes up to the time she goes to bed. On the rare occasion there's not a conversation on fb, she texts me to talk, which is good. My kids notice too, talk about how much she is on her phone and computer. I watch her post, sometimes sit on facebook next to her, sometimes just listen to her read the posts.

@gamma- she had an affair 3 years ago. I used the marriagebuilders program to help fix it then, but it didn't take much. She did an immediate 180 after leaving home for 3 days. The funny part is, it started with facebook, the same way this has begun. I knew the signs, that's why I immediately assumed the worst and did my snooping. I know how to deal with that. Plan A worked well, our relationship was great in a very short time and stayed that way until this started 4 weeks ago. We also have a mutual friend that she and I both trust, neutral ground if you will, and she opened up to him about where she was a little. There is no affair. She is using the entire group for conversational fulfillment and I believe it is deluding her view of reality.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/15/13 09:00 PM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
@@gamma- she had an affair 3 years ago. I used the marriagebuilders program to help fix it then, but it didn't take much. She did an immediate 180 after leaving home for 3 days. The funny part is, it started with facebook, the same way this has begun.

That's great. At least you know this will lead to an affair and will be better prepared for the next inevitable affair. Are you buckled up?!

Quote
. We also have a mutual friend that she and I both trust, neutral ground if you will, and she opened up to him about where she was a little.

Thank goodness she has a friend of the opposite sex to confide in. At least you know where the affair is likely to start: either with this "friend" or on facebook again.

I am sorry to see that you decided NOT to use Marriage Builders in your recovery. As such your marriage never recovered and you are headed for the next affair.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/15/13 09:10 PM
Dr Bill Harley: "when one need is met outside of marriage, the others are soon to follow."

Just think of that when your wife's male friend and her male friends on facebook meet the needs that you should be meeting.

Of course you already know this because it is not your first rodeo.
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/15/13 09:32 PM
The friend of the opposite sex is my pastor and mentor, has his wife with him every time they talk. The quote about the other needs being met is what I'm trying to avoid, the purpose of my question.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/15/13 09:42 PM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
The friend of the opposite sex is my pastor and mentor, has his wife with him every time they talk. The quote about the other needs being met is what I'm trying to avoid, the purpose of my question.

Have you considered using Marriage Builders to recover your marriage from her last affair? I can't count the couples who didn't who came back with repeat affairs. For example, you know that Facebook is the environment that led to your wife's affair. Yet she is still on Facebook.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/15/13 09:43 PM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
The friend of the opposite sex is my pastor and mentor, has his wife with him every time they talk. The quote about the other needs being met is what I'm trying to avoid, the purpose of my question.

We have many affairs on this board that were with pastors, by the way.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/15/13 09:57 PM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
The friend of the opposite sex is my pastor and mentor, has his wife with him every time they talk. The quote about the other needs being met is what I'm trying to avoid, the purpose of my question.
Have you seen this?
The Risk of Opposite Sex Friendships
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/15/13 09:58 PM
Also this?
Are "Friends" a Threat to Your Marraige?
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/15/13 10:09 PM
I have seen the risk of opposite sex friendships, understand what I'm dealing with as far as facebook goes and wish I could have used marriage builders to recover from the last affair but my wife wasn't willing, believed we would get better on our own. And we were for a long time until she got back on facebook a few weeks ago. If I get my wife out of withdrawal, I will keep going with the program until we are both working the program. I see the mistake now. Just looking for advice on how to get through the facebook part.

Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/15/13 10:40 PM
@melodylane- what do you suggest I do? My wife is in withdrawal, spends all her time doing something we both know is ruining our marriage. I care, want to stop it and save our marriage and protect my children. She doesn't care, isn't willing to talk about it, doesn't agree it's a problem and is unwilling to stop. Also, she likes to party on the weekends, drinking until 5 in the morning. we have three kids that she is supposed to take care of but obviously can't because she's asleep all day.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/15/13 10:51 PM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
@melodylane- what do you suggest I do? My wife is in withdrawal, spends all her time doing something we both know is ruining our marriage. I care, want to stop it and save our marriage and protect my children. She doesn't care, isn't willing to talk about it, doesn't agree it's a problem and is unwilling to stop. Also, she likes to party on the weekends, drinking until 5 in the morning. we have three kids that she is supposed to take care of but obviously can't because she's asleep all day.
Have you asked her to stop drinking and Facebooking?

Is she an alcoholic?
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/15/13 11:34 PM
I have asked her to stop drinking and facebooking, she told me flat out no. I asked her to slow down on drinking and facebooking, she told me to stop being annoying and that I wasn't her dad. I am trying not to make any withdrawals from her love bank, trying to build it up so I put a smile on my face and got involved in facebook and I go to every party and act like I'm having a good time while she acts out.

She may be an alcoholic. Her mom is an alcoholic. At this point, she doesn't have a problem stopping. she only drinks on the weekends, but it and facebook are hurting her, so she should want to get away. She just doesn't see it that way.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/15/13 11:47 PM
carsandkidz, I would begin by stopping the enabling and starting complaining. Putting a smile on your face and acting like you enjoy being neglected gives her the wrong impression. She has no motivation to stop. I would let her know how unhappy you are and that if she doesn't stop, this will lead to divorce.

Unconditional love leads to neglect and abuse and that is what has happened here. A complaint is not a lovebuster, it is a notification that her behavior is making you unhappy.

I suspect she is an alcoholic and Plan A does not work with alcoholics. She is also an adulterer who has never recovered, which makes Plan A even more inappropriate.

Do you have AA meetings close by? Have you checked into this?
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/16/13 12:01 AM
won't complaining push her out the door? She's already said she "feels lost, like she never had a chance to find herself" and she feels like I'm controlling her, which I would be if I refuse to give her money to buy what she wants since I'm the sole income in our household.

If she is an alcoholic, then I'm approaching this all wrong, I guess. I will have to research that. Thanks for your advice
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/16/13 12:08 AM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
won't complaining push her out the door? She's already said she "feels lost, like she never had a chance to find herself" and she feels like I'm controlling her, which I would be if I refuse to give her money to buy what she wants since I'm the sole income in our household.

If she is an alcoholic, then I'm approaching this all wrong, I guess. I will have to research that. Thanks for your advice

How would she go "out the door" if she has no money? It is not "controlling" to ask your wife to stop her bad behavior.

Not complaining when she makes you unhappy is to enable her. Complaints are good for marriage because they are a sign there is a problem in the marriage. She can't fix the problem if you don't tell her. These problems should be confronted head on. It comes across as if you don't care very much when you are complacent.

If she is an alcoholic, which it sure sounds like it, the approach is to tell her to stop drinking and go to AA. And most certainly you should stop giving an alcoholic money.

What was your posting name when you posted here about her affair? Did you expose her affair? Did she cut off all contact with her OM?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/16/13 12:10 AM
In addition please read all the letters in this area.
Alcoholic Spouse #1
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/16/13 12:12 AM
Also this one.
How the Co-dependency Movement Is Ruining Marriages
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/16/13 12:47 AM
@melodylane- I didn't post here when she had the affair. I uncovered it on facebook and she first left home for the OM. After 3 days, she realized it was a mistake, security at home and kids and such. While she was gone, I used the same person I am using now to get her to talk, since she wouldn't talk to me in depth. She completely cut off contact with the OM, has never made contact with him again.

I've tried complaining about the behaviors that are troubling. That's what led to her being withdrawn. She thinks I am trying to control her actions because I raise concern about her actions around these people. I stopped complaining because she took the complaints as hurtful attacks instead of loving caution and I was making too many love bank withdrawals without enough time to deposit anything.

I guess I'm trying to plan A it right now, have been for the last two weeks and facebook is beating me or she's an alcoholic.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/16/13 12:57 AM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
@melodylane- I didn't post here when she had the affair. I uncovered it on facebook and she first left home for the OM. After 3 days, she realized it was a mistake, security at home and kids and such. While she was gone, I used the same person I am using now to get her to talk, since she wouldn't talk to me in depth. She completely cut off contact with the OM, has never made contact with him again.

Unfortunately, "talking" will not resolve problems. Changing behaviors WILL. Your marriage never recovered from her affair and is headed right straight for affair #2.

Did you know the OM? Was he married?

Quote
I've tried complaining about the behaviors that are troubling. That's what led to her being withdrawn. She thinks I am trying to control her actions because I raise concern about her actions around these people. I stopped complaining because she took the complaints as hurtful attacks instead of loving caution and I was making too many love bank withdrawals without enough time to deposit anything.

Her continued thoughtless behavior is a huge lovebuster. You need to understand that asking your spouse to STOP doing things that are reckless and hurtful is not "controlling" behavior. So continue to complain until the bad behavior stops. That's ok if she is withdrawn at first. It is much preferable to her marriage wrecking behavior. Not complaining has led your marriage to this terrible place.

Quote
I guess I'm trying to plan A it right now, have been for the last two weeks and facebook is beating me or she's an alcoholic.

I would abandon Plan A since alcoholics use Plan A to use and take advantage of their spouses. It is impossible to fill the needs of an alcoholic so you are just spinning your wheels with Plan A.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/16/13 01:11 AM
Also since Facebook was an avenue that allowed her first affair Facebook should be an EP and shouldn't be allowed.

First priority is her drinking.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/16/13 01:22 AM
Does this ring true for you, carsandkidz?

Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
"The concept of unconditional love in marriage usually refers to a spouse�s lifelong commitment to care for the other spouse regardless of what the other spouse does. I�m in favor of a lifelong commitment to care regardless of unfavorable circumstances (health problems, financial setbacks, and other factors outside a couple�s control that can negatively impact a marriage). But I�m opposed to a lifelong commitment to care for a spouse when that spouse makes marriage-wrecking choices. It tends to give such people unrealistic expectations of entitlement�that they should be cared for, regardless of their willingness to care in return. Neglect and abuse characterize many marriages based on unconditional love."
here
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/16/13 04:23 PM
Ok, did some research and I don't think my wife is an alcoholic yet. I believe right now she is abusing alcohol and that may lead to addiction but it's not there yet. I'm going to make some requests and complaints, should get her back in to conflict and will definitely set some boundaries in our lives that might be more workable than what's going on now. I'm definitely an enabler, and blame myself completely when it's really a two way street. thanks, will come back and update, probably have more questions.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/16/13 04:31 PM
Good man! If she is not an alcoholic then she should have no problem stopping drinking altogether. I would probably start with her going to bars and partying on the weekends. That is as destructive to your marriage as her facebook addiction.

I would focus on creating a great marriage with her to fill the vacuum in her life. She is filling her life with alcohol, partying and facebook right now.
Posted By: carsandkidz is slow progress or no regress enough? - 11/27/13 06:44 PM
Trying to figure out how to proceed with my wife, need some advice.

About two months ago, my wife decided she just wasn't happy. Immediately started to pull away from our marriage, fell into a deep depression, fueled her depression with alcohol filled weekends, started spending tons of time on facebook.

I did my investigation into what she was up to, and there is no other man but there are a lot of other people that are making it difficult to get her to focus on her family and our relationship, so much so that she has no interest in working on anything. At the same time, she stopped doing any house work(stay at home mom). started laying on the couch for all waking hours except to pick up kids from school, driving through fast food restaurants for all meals. I picked up the house work, trying to show care.

For the first two weeks, I didn't do much of anything but go with the flow. For the rest of the time I have worked solely on building up her love bank and avoiding the love busters but the opportunities are so scarce because we are never alone, facebook is always where her attention is. Two weeks ago, I probably messed up a plan B.

I had planned the plan b for monday, was going to leave, tell her I wanted it to work but the road she was taking us down wasn't going to work. The weekend prior, I had our kids with my mother so the wife and I could go and have a good time over the weekend. Sunday morning, my wife woke up and told me she was done. We have a mutual female friend that lives in our neighborhood that came over and I left, trying to forge forward with the plan b. A few hours into being gone, she said she wanted to talk, wanted me to come home. I told her that I wasn't coming home unless she was sure that she wanted me there with her. She said she did, so I went home.

This is where I screwed up- my wife is a better negotiator than I am. What I wanted is for her to stop drinking, give facebook a rest and read his needs, her needs and love busters. She wanted nothing to do with any of it but agreed to go to a counselor.

I took what I could get and accepted the counseling as progress.

She put off the counseling session for a week, went to her first session alone. At the same time, she has pulled farther away and is completely unwilling to change any of her behaviors or commit to our relationship, or the desire to have our marriage work. Still won't get off facebook, still wants to go out drinking and partying every weekend, still not doing any housework.

The good is, she seems to have stopped pulling any farther away and is talking to me a little bit every day.

She says her counselor said it is normal for a person raised the way she was to become introverted when dealing with things and believes in her selfish state that her happiness is most important and the kids and I should have no consideration in her decision making right now. She also truly believes there is nothing wrong with drinking every weekend, being flirtatious with other men, ignoring me at these functions and talking on facebook for many hours every day.

I'm trying to figure out what to do. I don't want to push her away, but I don't know if I can keep going the way we are going.

Anyone know how I can salvage what I'm doing and get her to move a little more in the right direction? Should I just keep trying to tow the line and wait?

Posted By: markos Re: is slow progress or no regress enough? - 11/27/13 06:59 PM
Quote
The good is, she seems to have stopped pulling any farther away and is talking to me a little bit every day.

This is good, cars. It sounds like you are making some love bank deposits. Can you take her out on a date? If you can get her to spend 20-30 hours a week with you having fun and talking, you can probably restore her love for you, which will likely end her depression.
Posted By: markos Re: is slow progress or no regress enough? - 11/27/13 07:03 PM
cars, do you have the book Surviving an Affair? I would read that book and start putting it into practice ... then move on to putting the rest of the Marriage Builders materials into practice.

As your balance in her love bank rises, she will likely follow.

However, you will need to disrupt any opposite sex friendships she has in order for your deposits to be seriously effective.
I tried to take her to dinner last night, she spent 90% of our time together commenting on facebook. Her new interests trump all the things we used to do together, all new interests revolve around all the other people she is talking to, never just her and I.

I'm glad you see the good as I saw it. With my state of mind, it's hard to determine what is good and what is not.

I've suggested we take a short vacation, weekend getaway, offered to go to movies, casinos, etc. She is only interested in going out to dinner with groups of friends, going to sporting events with groups of friends, hanging out at neighbor's houses with groups.
Posted By: markos Re: is slow progress or no regress enough? - 11/27/13 07:10 PM
To whom is she talking on Facebook? Women only?
Posted By: markos Re: is slow progress or no regress enough? - 11/27/13 07:11 PM
cars,

Getting this better is going to be a long hard slog.

Click here and start listening to Dr. Harley's radio show: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4200_radio.html

The show is one hour each day and repeats every hour until the next day's show. So you can listen any time.

Listen daily until your marriage is recovered. Expect to be doing this for at least a year. Dr. Harley's advice and principles are indispensable if you want to recover your marriage.
How do I disrupt her same sex friendships? Her facebook friends are both men and women, all but one married. But there are 500 of them, probably 10 different guys that comment on her posts every day. She has a special FB page set up with 40 members(neighborhood people) that I am included in but the entire focus of the page is my wife. She, of course, enjoys being the center of attention on this page and the postings are split 50/50 between men and women talking to/about her. She is well aware that I'm not comfortable with her talking to guys, especially with the state of our marriage and she is unwilling to budge.

I don't have the book, will order it.

Posted By: markos Re: is slow progress or no regress enough? - 11/27/13 07:20 PM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
How do I disrupt her same sex friendships?

Tell their wives, your kids, your church, and her family.
Posted By: markos Re: is slow progress or no regress enough? - 11/27/13 07:21 PM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
I don't have the book, will order it.

Will you listen to the radio show? I wouldn't have made it without the show.
I will listen to the radio show, downloading the app now.

How do I tell everyone we know my wife needs to stop talking to other men without her viewing it as an attack on her, without it becoming a HUGE love buster and without looking like a huge controlling a hole?
Posted By: markos Re: is slow progress or no regress enough? - 11/27/13 07:28 PM
Have you exposed her previous affair?
Yes. She left me for him, had to break all contact and come clean to come back home. She did, has never made contact with him again. We didn't shout it from the mountain tops but a few of our closest friends and family know what happened.
Posted By: Prisca Re: is slow progress or no regress enough? - 11/27/13 07:36 PM
Quote
We didn't shout it from the mountain tops but a few of our closest friends and family know what happened.
Call on these friends and family to hold her accountable now. Accountability is one of the biggest reasons for exposure.

She is headed towards another affair, and she needs to be called on it.

These things must happen, or there is no hope for your marriage:
- Facebook must go
- Opposite sex friendships must go
Posted By: alis Re: is slow progress or no regress enough? - 11/27/13 07:42 PM
It is critical to follow this program - right down to no contact letters, exposure, EPs, all of it.

Right now, she is in the position of knowing that she can do whatever she wants without consequences. She's acting like a bratty teenager and you're like the parent who is still there to clean up their dirty socks in the morning no matter what abuse is hurled... you have 3 children, you have to start being the leader here.
so even though there's no affair at this point, I should treat is like it is?
Posted By: alis Re: is slow progress or no regress enough? - 11/27/13 08:36 PM
Your marriage never recovered from the first one - she is still acting the same way, doing the same things, it is only a matter of time (if not yet) that she pulls the same stunt again.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/27/13 09:25 PM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
My issue is, she is in the withdrawal stage. Won't talk about anything, wants to find herself, etc. She spends 10-12 hours a day on facebook, using this to fulfill her need for conversation. Since I can't get through to her right now anyway, how do I compete with facebook to fulfill her need for conversation? Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Ok. One of the HUGE red flags to me was when you said.. "Won't talk about anything, wants to find herself" the part about "finding herself" is the biggest red flag you have mentioned. My wife said the same thing.

Has your wife ever said "I love you but not in love with you?"

Have you spied on her phone? If not I suggest you place something in it to track what she says on her phone. I'm certain there's another man. Also from your description, it seems to me your wifes top need is likely admiration. Especially if she likes being center of attention. Meet admiration often and couple it with good convo and your wife will start to look at you in a different light.


In my situation, my wife didn't want anything to do with MB at the time just like yours. Mainly because I was suggesting it and trying to force the concepts down her throat as our issues escelated. My wifes addictions was MSN back in the day before FB became this popular and she too said I was controlling and she's gunna talk to whom she wants etc. So my wife suggested counselling after I complained a lot. I arranged it and we went but she found she didn't like how emotional it made her to relive all the past issues and didn't like the cost. So I brought up the MB subject again but only presented the article on POJA and said to her we could eliminate the costs of counselling by just beginning with poja and my wife read the poja article (finally I appealed to her sense of money saving) and a lightbulb came on in her head. It slowly developed from there. We stopped seeing a counsellor and took on MB slowly and my wife slowly let go of her MSN addiction as she began to realize the guys she was talking to only appealed to her because they opened up to her and I wasn't meeting those needs for her very well. I had a lot to learn on meeting her needs and eventually she dropped being on the PC alltogether once we started finding mutual things to enjoy together and one we plugged all the holes in our lovebanks.

What really hindered my wife was anxiety... She had good intentions much of the time but when anxiety would kick in (over loss of online friends etc or various other sources and anxiety triggers) the last thing she would think about was MB and anxiety would control her decisions. That was hard to cope with but is way better now that we are seeing a psycologist together.

If your going to see a counsellor... Find a psycologist instead. Counsellors seem to facilitate divorce and just say things that don't help very much at all. I would suggest coaching from here but you stated she's not interested in MB. You could always bring up the fact that following MB is cheaper than counselling too. Worked for me.. Just took longer to get my wife on board than I hoped.

I had to live MB myself for a long time to get my wife on board and many times it was one step forward and 2 steps back as I had my own anxiety problem that hindered me from following MB. Often anxiety leads to angry outbursts... Those don't help at all.

Alcohol supresses anxiety... So its no wonder your wife wants to drink. Possibly look into a bio feedback device like the GSR2 so you can practice controlling anxiety with it. Helped us lots.

Sum up

1. Your wife is getting her need for admiration from FB "buddies"
2. She is likely suffering from anxiety and doesn't recognize it as such so self medicates with alcohol on weekends to "get away".
3. Find a psycologist instead of a counsellor if you have to go that route. MB coaching is best, but a psycologist is better than a counsellor if your wife is unwilling to consider MB plan. At least until she can see the benifit of MB displayed by you.
4. Snoop.. Snoop... And snoop some more. Smile lots and begin a plan to give your wife tons of admiration I bet within a week of making convos about her.. And complimenting her and building her up she will slow down on FB.

MNG
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/27/13 09:50 PM
Anxiety and clinical depression are known conditions of my wife. She is on medication and takes it regularly. I continue to snoop, and I'm now heavily involved in all the pages she's on on facebook. I know all her friends, they all know me. I make sure I'm at every party or get together and a few of the new friends know where our relationship is and where it was in the past.

Her counselor is a psychologist and a christian counselor. I've talked to her doctor also, and doctor says she needs to come in and have her meds changed but she is also unwilling to do that.
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/27/13 09:52 PM
I haven't tried only introducing the POJA by itself. That's an interesting concept to consider.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/27/13 10:04 PM
Ok so your part of the conversations.. Have you ever asked her for all her passwords and offered yours in return? Do you read the private messages in her FB account?

DR.harley says that women are often depresssed because of relationships and men because of career. Suggest a camping trip where there is no cell service or internet. Or a romantic getaway and ask her to leave the phone at home so you guys can really sit down and connect emotionally.

Do you 2 get much time together?

In our home. No answering the cell phone or turning on PC til after dinner and chores are all done. This encourages everyone to work together to accomplish all that needs to be done before any recreational activities take place. TV is an exception because hockey is on every other day and we all love hockey so we put our jerseys on and cheer on the canucks!

I think admiration is the key here for your wife. Compliment her many times a day.. Use words she uses a lot back at her.. Gotta keep trying.. Get her out of the house and find something fun to do that will distract her from her phone.

MNG
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/27/13 10:08 PM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
I haven't tried only introducing the POJA by itself. That's an interesting concept to consider.

When I did that... My wifes words to me were "I like it.. That's a double edged sword there"

It layed the foundation for us to move forward one step at a time when previously I was throwing too much at her at once. Gotta start with milk before you can chew on solid food...
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/27/13 10:16 PM
I have asked for the passwords, asked to see the messages. In the past, it was an issue then not an issue, now it's kind of an issue. She won't give me her password to FB but she will show me everything, including the private messages.

She is definitely depressed, anxious and bored. I'm going to turn up the compliments, just going to have to be creative because right now, she literally does nothing for the 12 hours she's awake other than sit on FB.

I've suggested romantic getaways, weekend trips to her favorite places, dinner dates, movies, etc. The only time she leaves the couch is if a group of her friends are getting together. I did get her to have dinner with me alone once. She filled the entire time by checking her FB page and commenting on posts.

Going to try some more through thanksgiving and the weekend. Reassess monday.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/27/13 10:29 PM
Ok .. She's depressed. When your depressed your not enthusiastic about anything. Your job will be to man up and MAKE a romantic get away. Plan it out.. Get the kids to the grandparents or whatever.. And tell her "Hun, we are going on a getaway. I have made all the arrangements and got everything setup. All you gotta do is join me and put on something nice for the dinner it is all going to start at"

Being the man is sexy to women. You know your wife and what she "usually" likes.. Go with that and just do it. Even if its just dinner and a movie.

You be her rock.. Tell her your going to be. Tell her you want to be her best friend. Remind her of special times you used to have.. Bring her mind back to happier times and help her remember. Its hard to be motivated to do anything if your depressed and you can help her lift it and remember who she was and who you were when you got together.

Feelings follow actions. I promise. Sometimes it takes a while for it to sink in. But its worth it.

MNG
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/27/13 10:38 PM
Another thing to remember is women are global thinkers and men are compartmental thinkers. Everything and anything you have ever said to her that's negative will be floating in the forefront of her mind especially if the atmosphere has a negative energy to it. By amping up the compliments and positive upbeat conversation (try and talk about her and her feelings) you will eventually replace those negative movies going on in her head with new positive ones. This will reinforce her in her mind that she married the right guy and those negative things playing in her mind will slowly go away. This will build her lovebank and self esteem.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/27/13 11:16 PM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
I have asked for the passwords, asked to see the messages. In the past, it was an issue then not an issue, now it's kind of an issue. She won't give me her password to FB but she will show me everything, including the private messages.

If you are monitoring her FB via PC with a keylogger (desktopshark is a great one btw) then you should have her passwords. The fact that its "kinda" a issue to read her FB private messages is a redflag to me. People with nothing to hide. Don't hide.

MNG
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/27/13 11:27 PM
I don't think she's hiding anything, as she's pulled away, she's talked a lot about being independent, making her own decisions, having her own stuff.

She's brutally honest, to a fault. If she were hiding, she wouldn't talk about it. She's told me she's not cheating on me, not hiding anything.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/27/13 11:36 PM
Just because she's told you she's not cheating does not mean you should take that at face value. Cheaters lie. Its better to veerify yourself

If I was cheating on my wife. I wouldy deny it up and down and then get defensive and angry at my wife for even suggesting such a thing. A common tactic of waywards.

Not saying she IS... Just saying to keep verifying. Blind trust has been the death of many marriages.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/28/13 05:17 AM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
I have asked for the passwords, asked to see the messages. In the past, it was an issue then not an issue, now it's kind of an issue. She won't give me her password to FB but she will show me everything, including the private messages.

She is definitely depressed, anxious and bored. I'm going to turn up the compliments, just going to have to be creative because right now, she literally does nothing for the 12 hours she's awake other than sit on FB.

I've suggested romantic getaways, weekend trips to her favorite places, dinner dates, movies, etc. The only time she leaves the couch is if a group of her friends are getting together. I did get her to have dinner with me alone once. She filled the entire time by checking her FB page and commenting on posts.

Going to try some more through thanksgiving and the weekend. Reassess monday.

My wife also didn't want to give me her facebook password,,,,, turned out she was having an affair with someone on Facebook!
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/30/13 05:27 PM
So, an update with, of course, more questions.

Caught the wife lying to me about who she was talking to on facebook on thursday night while she was having her usual drunken party at our house. She was talking to a married man that lives in our neighborhood while claiming to be talking to one of her girlfriends. Later that night, she got upset with me, told me she needed time to think without anyone there and asked me to go somewhere else for the night. I obliged, grabbed some clothes and left, trying to avoid a big fight with her since she was drunk. With nowhere to go at 3 in the morning, I drove around for an hour and something told me to go by the house. Lo and behold, the guy she was talking to was parked in the court near our house. As I drove up, he drove off, wouldn't stop. I thought I'd caught her cheating so I walked into the house but she was asleep. The guy was on facebook so I commented on his status, asking why he was in front of my house at 3am. At 4, my wife called me saying his wife had called her, asking what was going on. She wanted me to take the posts down because she didn't want a "rumor" started. The guy answered my post with a private message about how he was just there to walk across a field to a friend's place. The next afternoon, she called me and asked me to come home so we could talk, said it was going to be a good talk. The conversation started with her asking me why I had acted crazy the night before. I told her how I had caught her in the lie and then caught the guy in front of our house and she agreed I wasn't crazy but still says nothing is going on. We then talked about her hiding facebook, her complete indifference to our marriage and the fact that she is unwilling to commit to wanting our marriage to work. She admitted to lying about who she was talking to but still refused to give me her password or show me the messages, claiming some things were hers, some things were ours and facebook was hers. She also agreed that she is giving 0% to our relationship, isn't interested in giving any more than 0% and isn't willing to stop drinking, partying or talking on facebook all the time.

Friday night I executed plan B. At 5 this morning she sent me a few angry messages about how I'm not much of a man for leaving with giving her money or talking to her and telling her I was leaving. I've talked to our intermediary, and he is prepared for the job.

Now that I'm in plan B, do I still pay the bills for the household? She has no job, our three kids are going to be there. I'm sure I should provide food but I guess I'm one of the few whose spouse is a SAHM that still has to plan B so I haven't seen a lot of specifics on my situation. Do I pay her car payment? If I am supposed to pay the bills, do I eliminate the creature comforts like cable, internet access, etc?

Where do I draw the financial line?
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/30/13 06:31 PM
First off. You didn't execute plan A. You should go home and tell her to leave! By giving her space your enabling her affair (she's lieing like we already said.. Prepare for trickle truth)

You need to protect your kids from this OM. No one in their right mind "goes acorss the field" at 3am then drives off when he was discovered then FB mdg you som BS story. You are being gas lighted.

Take her phone away. If you pay for it stop enabling her behaviour. Leave the pc for her to use since its keylogged. You will get all her passwords.

Go home... Demand she end all contact with om and be transparent 100% or she can leave and leave the kids there too.

By leaving the home that's abandonment. Won't look good in court.

I suggest this thread be moved to survivng an affair. And go home and begin plan A.
Posted By: alis Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/30/13 06:45 PM
What stay at home mother has time to stay up partying all night and chatting with men AND take care of the kids?

Sir, you need to get BACK IN YOUR HOME because I suspect your children are being neglected in her care alone. How are you going to explain to the courts that you left your kids in her care when you admit she is on facebook 12 hours and drinking/partying?

You are on a one-way track to lose custody if this ends in divorce if you don't take a stand now.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/30/13 07:06 PM
You should not abandon your family in their time of need. You should go home. Many courts frown on men who abandon their families.

I would go home and start exposing her affair with this married man using the tactics outlined in my exposure thread. I don't care about the lies and excuses given by your wife and her boyfriend. You caught the man at your house in the middle of the night, for crying out loud.

You are making serious strategic mistakes and need to start listening to the posters here.

I have notified the mods to move this thread to surviving an affair.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/30/13 07:23 PM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
I have asked for the passwords, asked to see the messages. In the past, it was an issue then not an issue, now it's kind of an issue. She won't give me her password to FB but she will show me everything, including the private messages. .

Do you have keylogger on her computer? Obviously, showing you this stuff is ruse because even the dumbest wayward knows how to erase the incriminating evidence.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/30/13 07:25 PM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
Caught the wife lying to me about who she was talking to on facebook on thursday night while she was having her usual drunken party at our house.

You should not allow her to have parties at your home. I would put a stop to this now. You are a responsible adult who should not allow this kind of behavior in your children's home.
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/30/13 07:39 PM
until yesterday, I didn't think there was an affair, not sure there is still. I caught the guy in his car and I immediately confronted my wife to find her fast asleep with no signs that she had been anything but asleep.

I can't stop the parties. The WW and all of her friends know that we are having problems. She believes, and has convinced all of her friends, that I am the problem, I am trying to stop her from having fun and I'm the [censored]**le.

They don't know she is an addict with an alcohol abuse problem, was in recovery from a past affair until 2 months ago when she abandoned the rules and started talking to male friends, going out without me, etc.

She won't leave, won't stop any of the behaviors, her friends won't stop coming over even when I'm an [censored] about it.

Should I pull the kids out with me?

No keylogger. Had one, but it popped up the next day when she got on and blew that plan out of the water. Now all her stuff is done on her phone, which never leaves her side (24hrs). Should I cancel her phone service? data plan?

So I'm guessing I've really screwed this up now. Thinking the drinking, partying and fb'ing was it. I've pm'd the potential OM's spouse with what I saw and what his explanation was. Maybe she will be able to uncover proof.

How do I get my plan back on track?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/30/13 07:56 PM
First off, you should go home. You should tell her the parties are over and if ppl show up at your home, ask them to leave. If they don't leave you can call the police.

I would move all of your money to a safe place and get your check deposit changed to another account so she doesn't plunder your account. Then cancel her phone service.

I would let her know that this destructive behavior is going to lead to divorce and ask her to stop. You might want to look into your options about leaving with the kids, but I would first ask her to move out if she insists on a separation.
Posted By: JessicaClaire Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/30/13 08:19 PM
I think you should inform this potential OM's wife of your wife's previous affair, and make sure she understands that you are seeing the same red flags now that you saw then (secretive, excessive FB, etc). I would then ask her to put spyware on her husband's computer and cell phone, and possibly a GPS on his car. If she does, she should be able to find out rather quickly if her husband is having an affair with your wife.

I suspect she will be receptive to the idea since she responded so quickly and directly when you asked her husband why he was in front of your house at 3am. (For her to have called your wife at 4am, she must have been awake and on FB during the middle of the night. She may have been wondering where her husband was.) Obviously, she didn't hesitate to suspect or confront your wife when she saw your FB post. That bodes well. smile
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/30/13 09:55 PM
Ok, two hours ago, I sent the OM's wife a message. She broke the whole thing wide open, I confronted my wife, she admitted to the affair and I told her I still wanted to save our marriage but she had to end it with the OM. She is taking time to make her decision, has been about 45 mins. How much time should I give her to make the choice before I blast on facebook and text message to everyone we know?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/30/13 09:59 PM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
Ok, two hours ago, I sent the OM's wife a message. She broke the whole thing wide open, I confronted my wife, she admitted to the affair and I told her I still wanted to save our marriage but she had to end it with the OM. She is taking time to make her decision, has been about 45 mins. How much time should I give her to make the choice before I blast on facebook and text message to everyone we know?

Expose the affair to everyone right now. Don't wait. Did you read my exposre thread for sample letters, etc? Also, call her parents, your parents, siblings and other close family and tell them about the affair. Tell your children all about the affair.

And MOST OF ALL, MOVE HOME!!
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/30/13 10:01 PM
I'm already home
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/30/13 10:01 PM
When you go home, tell her your choice, which is that she NEVER contact the OM again. Ask her to send the OM a no contact letter. If she will not end her affair this will lead to divorce.

You will also have to move out of that neighborhood since this is an affair with the neighbor. Recovery will be impossible otherwise.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/30/13 10:02 PM
Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
My advice is to write a final letter in a way that the victimized spouse would agree to send it. It should begin with a statement of how selfish it was to cause those they loved so much pain, and while marital reconciliation cannot completely repay the offense, it's the right thing to do. A statement should be made about how much the unfaithful spouse cares about his spouse and family, and for their protection, has decided to completely end the relationship with the lover. He or she has promised never to see or communicate with the lover again in life, and asks the lover to respect that promise. Nothing should be said about how much the lover will be missed. After the letter is written, the victimized spouse should read and approve it before it is sent.
here


[from SAA, pg 58]

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, XXXXX

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/30/13 10:02 PM
From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.


Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/30/13 10:03 PM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
I'm already home

Go expose the affair NOW. When you are finished, sit the kids down and tell them.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/30/13 10:07 PM
carsandkids, DO NOT forewarn her that you are going to expose the affair. Just sit down and start exposing in a place where you won't be interrupted. Go drive around the block and call her parents, your parents, etc. Ask them all to contact her and ask her to end her affair. You need their support and hopefully they will give her a call.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/30/13 10:37 PM
I'm so sorry for your pain... You got some great advice going on here. Do everything ML says. She won't steer you wrong. I'm surprised there is as many on this weekend as there is.

Keep on keepin on. Stay calm. This is a textbook case and you got a good foot to stand on. Recovery is very possible here if the proper steps are followed to a T.

MNG
Posted By: alis Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/30/13 10:55 PM
Carsandkidz,

You're going to have stand up here for yourself and your children.

Listen to yourself - you're out working while financing this woman to drink, have affairs, and have parties with these people in your home while - who??? - is taking care of the children?

As the Brits might say, she is taking the piss out of you. She can walk all over you.

You NEED to take back your home and your family here, starting with not being a doormat.

As part of plan A, you will be exposing no matter if she promises to quit forever or runs away with him.
Posted By: Justthe3ofus Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/30/13 10:58 PM
Expose it.

But you have two other big problems:

1) Her alcoholism
2) She is a serial cheater

You are facing long odds. She needs professional help. AA. And she needs to get on board with Extraordinary Precautions, including everything on the checklist that ML listed above.
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/30/13 11:04 PM
so far, I've had a big response from the exposure. I've had about 10 people contact me, the wife's girlfriend that she's talking with called me to ask why I was sending out the messages because my wife's phone wouldn't stop ringing and dinging. Of course, my wife was yelling at me in the background about how I'd just ended all chance of us working it out. Hope y'all are right about the whole save the marriage, not keep her from being angry stuff.


Two of my kids are with my mother, one is with my wife. I will tell them when I can.

Now that everyone knows, do I just pray and wait?
Posted By: JessicaClaire Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/30/13 11:14 PM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
Ok, two hours ago, I sent the OM's wife a message. She broke the whole thing wide open, I confronted my wife, she admitted to the affair

Bingo! I knew she could be the key to this! Regardless of whether you choose to recover your marriage, exposure is the best course of action.

It sounds like your kids have endured tremendous neglect as a result of your wife's affairs and alcohol abuse. Fortunately, they will no longer be suffering in silence. Neither will you or OM's wife. This is going to get very ugly before it starts to get better, but everyone will be better off once your wife's secret second life is exposed to the light of day.

We're pulling for you. Now go tell your kids!
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 11/30/13 11:37 PM
going to tell the kids tomorrow. I know, I should expose it all right now but the kids are now all with my mother.

I've given my wife the two options, end it completely with him and save us or try it with him and end up in divorce. She is not here, staying with the girlfriend that is helping her talk through everything. The girlfriend called to tell me my wife is going to stay there tonight. Should I leave my wife alone? should I acknowledge my part in not meeting her needs in the first place? I'm sure I'm not the first one that's been impatient. Just wondering how else I can help direct this decision.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/01/13 12:16 AM
Ler her know what YOUR decision is and leave it at that. She either ends her affair, stops drinking and partying or this leads to divorce. Let her know this is non negotiable.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/01/13 12:18 AM
Did you tell all of your parents and family members?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/01/13 12:19 AM
You can tell the loser girlfriend that you will be telling everyone about her affair.
Posted By: Surfer88 Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/01/13 12:20 AM
Good job on exposure. It was the biggest step toward saving your marriage! I haven't read through your entire thread, but have you studied up here on Plan A and Plan B? These 2 steps are critical for you to thoroughly understand. If someone hasn't posted links, you can find the in the Basics Concepts on the first page here.

It takes courage to do what you are doing to save this, should you choose to. You are going to need Plan A not, and prepare the extraordinary precautions list provided. Good job...we all know that it's counter-intuitive. We also know that her responses thus are textbook. Kudos, and keep moving forward.

God bless.
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/01/13 12:46 AM
Started exposure with the OM's wife, then told all family and friends. I was friends with the OM on facebook and when I sent out exposure PM's, I sent one to him. He wasn't happy, still trying to deny it to his wife.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/01/13 12:47 AM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
Started exposure with the OM's wife, then told all family and friends. I was friends with the OM on facebook and when I sent out exposure PM's, I sent one to him. He wasn't happy, still trying to deny it to his wife.

Did you make a copy of the OM's contacts? I would send exposure PMs out to his family and friends. Go copy and paste his contacts into a WORD doc and start exposing.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/01/13 01:01 AM
Good job on exposure. Don't worry about your wifes angry fog bable (where she said you ruined all chances of fixing this by exposing). She's just blind right now. You took the crack pipe away from the crack addict so to speak.

Be calm. Tell your wife nothing of your support here. Stick to the plan.

MNG
Posted By: Surfer88 Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/01/13 04:14 AM
Indeed, and heed Melody's advice. Stick to the plan...it's difficult and surgical. Set emotions aside. You are in triage.
Posted By: Surfer88 Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/01/13 04:23 AM
Yes, the very last thing you need to worry about is you wife's anger. That's a given, expected, and a short-term "event". Brace yourself, and if you respond at all to any attacks on you for it, you respond with "I am trying to save my marriage from my wife's infidelity. Please support me in my effort to save my marriage and keep my family intact." The end. No shame, but rather, strength. YOU are the beacon of light to save this...the hero. Never forget that.

Act on Melody's advice to the letter. Exposure is your number one priority right now.
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/01/13 04:32 AM
exposure is done, other than kids. WW is not home, not talking to me. How do I work plan A without communication? How long is expected after exposure to hear from the WW?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/01/13 04:38 AM
C&k, I would focus now on making sure your kids are taken care of and that your money is secure. Have you moved your money to a safe place?

I doubt your wife will be gone long. She is staying away to shake you up and teach you a lesson. Don't let that shake your resolve. When she does call, let her know your conditions: that she end her affair, stop drinking and stop partying. I would make it very clear that there will never be another party in your home.

I would also start thinking about how you can sell your home and move away. You won't be able to recover your marriage with the OM living right by you.
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/02/13 02:00 AM
Ok, so the wife came home today, ended the affair, came clean with me and we are working on recovering. Her head is still a mess, since she just decided to end it this morning. I'm thinking I can't push too hard right now while she's in "withdrawal". What I have from her so far is a promise to never contact the OM again, she blocked his number in her phone, blacklisted the number. She is unable to block him on FB because he blocked her first. She and I have committed to rigorous honesty and complete openness and she is demonstrating that by talking openly about the affair and about her lies as well as other issues we have even though the whole situation brings her to tears every time.

I know we need more, have to get all the extraordinary measures in place, and she's aware there will be more. Should I bring it up and put it in place over the next couple of days as her head gets right or do I push it all on her now?
Posted By: JessicaClaire Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/02/13 02:22 AM
That is wonderful news! Just a quick question: You did tell your kids. Correct?
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/02/13 02:26 AM
yes, kids know as much as they can. We have 3 girls aged 12, 9 and 8. The 12 yr old was with her mom when she was exposed, the 9 and 8 yr olds know as much as I felt they could understand.
Posted By: Viper Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/02/13 02:45 AM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
Ok, so the wife came home today, ended the affair, came clean with me and we are working on recovering. Her head is still a mess, since she just decided to end it this morning. I'm thinking I can't push too hard right now while she's in "withdrawal". What I have from her so far is a promise to never contact the OM again, she blocked his number in her phone, blacklisted the number. She is unable to block him on FB because he blocked her first. She and I have committed to rigorous honesty and complete openness and she is demonstrating that by talking openly about the affair and about her lies as well as other issues we have even though the whole situation brings her to tears every time.

I know we need more, have to get all the extraordinary measures in place, and she's aware there will be more. Should I bring it up and put it in place over the next couple of days as her head gets right or do I push it all on her now?

Just a drive by post, but 2 things I would do immediately:

1) Have her delete her FB page completely, and only if necessary, create a joint FB page. Considering the subject line in your original post, I would opt for burying FB forever.

2) Blocking phone numbers may not be enough. Change her phone number, and I would also put a keylogger on her phone without her knowledge when you get a chance (ie:now). Don't underestimate the power of this addiction.

Great job thus far though. Well done!!

Oh, remember this?

Originally Posted by carsandkidz
so far, I've had a big response from the exposure. I've had about 10 people contact me, the wife's girlfriend that she's talking with called me to ask why I was sending out the messages because my wife's phone wouldn't stop ringing and dinging. Of course, my wife was yelling at me in the background about how I'd just ended all chance of us working it out. Hope y'all are right about the whole save the marriage, not keep her from being angry stuff.


Two of my kids are with my mother, one is with my wife. I will tell them when I can.

Now that everyone knows, do I just pray and wait?

What say you now?

clap
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/02/13 02:50 AM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
Ok, so the wife came home today, ended the affair, came clean with me and we are working on recovering. Her head is still a mess, since she just decided to end it this morning. I'm thinking I can't push too hard right now while she's in "withdrawal". What I have from her so far is a promise to never contact the OM again, she blocked his number in her phone, blacklisted the number. She is unable to block him on FB because he blocked her first. She and I have committed to rigorous honesty and complete openness and she is demonstrating that by talking openly about the affair and about her lies as well as other issues we have even though the whole situation brings her to tears every time.

I know we need more, have to get all the extraordinary measures in place, and she's aware there will be more. Should I bring it up and put it in place over the next couple of days as her head gets right or do I push it all on her now?

Drive the deal home now. Don't delay anymore. Have her delete facebook and change her phone # and email address. I would also ask her to send the OM a no contact letter as outlined in Survivng an Affair. I will post it.

Did you finish all your exposures?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/02/13 02:52 AM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
yes, kids know as much as they can. We have 3 girls aged 12, 9 and 8. The 12 yr old was with her mom when she was exposed, the 9 and 8 yr olds know as much as I felt they could understand.

What do you mean by this? Were they told their mother is having an affair with a man named _____? were they taught the reasons why adultery is wrong? If not, you are essentially playing headgames with children. A child from age 4 and up know what an affair is and why it is wrong. If you don't tell them it is wrong, they think your silence is an endorsement.

What did you tell your children and why can't they understand the full truth?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/02/13 02:54 AM
Facebook should be barred for LIFE from your house since your wife has had an affair that way.

Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
My advice is to write a final letter in a way that the victimized spouse would agree to send it. It should begin with a statement of how selfish it was to cause those they loved so much pain, and while marital reconciliation cannot completely repay the offense, it's the right thing to do. A statement should be made about how much the unfaithful spouse cares about his spouse and family, and for their protection, has decided to completely end the relationship with the lover. He or she has promised never to see or communicate with the lover again in life, and asks the lover to respect that promise. Nothing should be said about how much the lover will be missed. After the letter is written, the victimized spouse should read and approve it before it is sent.
here


[from SAA, pg 58]

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, XXXXX

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/02/13 02:59 AM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
@gamma- she had an affair 3 years ago. I used the marriagebuilders program to help fix it then, but it didn't take much. She did an immediate 180 after leaving home for 3 days. The funny part is, it started with facebook, the same way this has begun.

You would be INSANE to even give her access to the computer again after TWO freaking affairs. Just cancel your internet service. Delete her facebook and cancel the internet.

You also realize that you must move since her MOST RECENT OM is a neighbor, right?

I want to warn you that you are headed to affair #3 and #4 if you and your wife do not establish extraordinary precautions this time. She is a serial cheater who actively trolls for men on the internet.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/02/13 02:59 AM
From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.


Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/02/13 03:03 AM
My friend, you have NOTHING TO LOSE by driving this deal home. Being timid and soft about your recovery will lead you to the next affair. You need to drive this deal home NOW while you have any leverage. Or you won't have a marriage because you will be dealing with endless affairs.

Get her off that damn computer. Sell it, get it out of your house and cancel your internet. She is addicted to facebook and you will not have a wife until that is removed.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/02/13 11:25 AM
Have you seen this?
Extraordinary Precautions-Revised SAA
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/03/13 05:07 PM
Thanks again for the advice and support. After a long weekend, our extraordinary precautions are coming together.

I know ya'll are going to think I'm crazy, but we didn't eliminate facebook. We did get rid of all friends of the opposite sex, and her password belongs to me and will for as long as we are married.

She had already cut off all contact, spent half of sunday talking about what she had done, how it started, why it happened. We set some really strict boundaries on who she talks to, have 24 hr accountability, her phone is now being tracked by gps for me and if she goes anywhere, she calls when she leaves, when she gets to where she's going, I can confirm with whichever girlfriend she has gone to see. All of our recreational time will be spent together, and everyone knows what happened between us, that it was a mistake, that we are working on getting past it together. All of our friends have my phone number, she sent out a message to hold her accountable to them and to me if she ever starts acting the way she has again.

We started looking at houses yesterday. Our house will be on the market ASAP, probably going to take 2 weeks to list it, and hopefully we are going to be able to move in 30-45 days. She and I understand that as long as this guy is close, we have to be extremely careful to avoid him. She has seen his car twice in the last 3 days and instantly told me both times.

In the conversations we had about the affair, she explained how she felt about what happened, says it was extremely stupid, she is ashamed, feels like a whore, and cries every time she tells me she didn't want to hurt me. The first day she was home, she said she felt torn, like she wanted to be home with me and like she had to be home with me. She was heavily involved emotionally with both of us and is committed to getting over him and reconnecting with me.

We are leaving town thursday for a 4 day getaway to start recovering our relationship, kind of a marital reset. Should be a great way to get 50-60 hours of alone time together.

What else should we be doing to jump start our recovery?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/03/13 05:17 PM
You're not helping by keeping FB alive. The entire website will be a major trigger for her. It's the location of the affair.

One BS on here set fire to a couch that had been the setting for one liaison. You need to take the same approach with FB.

Even if it were not possible for the A to restart on FB (and it is highly probable it will) she will never get through withdrawal. Every time she logs on she will go back to day one, minute one on her withdrawal clock. She's never going to feel better stuck in that limbo.

We've seen this happen with Facebook loads of times. Genuinely well meaning waywards got sucked right back in.

Why is it so important to keep hold of it? It is just a website! There are a myriad of other ways to keep in touch with important people. Facebook was only designed for contact with non important people after all.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/03/13 05:23 PM
Have you read Annar's thread?

She is distraught because after apparently recovering from her FB affair she started trolling for action on Google+. She has no idea why she had so little self control. Her poor BH has had enough and is filing for divorce no matter how much she begs.

This is because he doesn't want to limit her internet or babysit her online. It doesn't seem that you feel this way, so what is the problem?

Melody Lane's advice here cannot be bettered:

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
You would be INSANE to even give her access to the computer again after TWO freaking affairs. Just cancel your internet service. Delete her facebook and cancel the internet.


Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/03/13 05:42 PM
I understand what you are saying indiegirl. The root cause of the affair isn't facebook, it's my wife's ability to set boundaries and stick to them, she identified this and is going to a counselor to learn how to change the way she views commitment and how to teach herself to stop. Facebook enabled her to cross boundaries, but so did homeowner's association meetings(where she met the OM), the gas station down the street(the only one close to the house), carpool line at the elementary school(the OM is unemployed and our kids go to the same school). To try to stop everything that enables her to make stupid decisions right now, she would have to lock herself in a closet with no phone, no computer, no tv, etc. and never go outside or talk to anyone because she has NO ability to stop doing dumb stuff.

She loves her kids, but put them in danger and compromised her most important values by driving them around after drinking and smoking around our oldest for several hours in our garage.

All that is to say, her issues are way more serious than just cheating on me with another man. She realized this at some point sunday afternoon, and to be honest, I don't know the first way to help her relearn the basics on how to stick with boundaries that uphold her basic moral beliefs.

All of our close friends and family, our entire support group communicates with each other through facebook, both hers and mine. We eliminated all friends of opposite sex for her, so what's left is a bunch of girls and our family members(both male and female). Our rule is, I always have her password and can sit on her FB account all day every day, if I want. There is a keylogger on our computer now, a nanny cam program on her phone and 250 friends and family that now know her warning signs and at least 200 of them, through the exposure, now want to help her keep this from ever happening. She is aware of all of this, is happy that it's in place. For the first time in the 12 years we've been together, she's talking to everyone about what happened, what's going to happen, why it happened, why it shouldn't have happened, how to keep it from happening ever again and she's asking for help from me, from our families, our friends, etc. She has always been closed off completely from everyone else, half closed off to me, so I believe this is a huge step.

I know it's still an extremely risky situation, more so with FB still alive but I'm hoping it's a double edged sword that can help hold her accountable for a while until we can move.
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/03/13 06:15 PM
Sorry, just saw your other post indiegirl. I have read his thread, I don't feel that way. I have absolutely no problem sitting on her FB page, monitoring the nanny cam software, reading all the key logs(have remote access with screen shots, all passwords, chat logs, etc.) She also has no problem with any of this, I was open with her about how I would be checking on this, she accepts it. She also understands I talk to all of her friends, they all understand I will be checking with them, and SHE told them all to tell me everything and to cut her no slack/hide nothing from me.

Posted By: indiegirl Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/03/13 06:52 PM
That would be fine for a couple who had never experienced an affair. But the web is the LOCATION of where her As have already been had.

There's a lot of security and checking up, which I approve of, there but it won't stop the site from triggering her. At all.

Facebook is also an absolute landmine of 'Remember this!' flagging up stuff that has already happened. It also links in posts of acquaintances trying to connect people. I have done my utmost to try and block my XWH but it was a long time before I stopped getting little reminders now and then of stuff that had happened in the past. People who are mutual acquaintances also mentioned him. It is more than likely that there will be huge triggers and remember-whens sent your WW's way.

Facebook is like standing in the middle of the street holding a 'look at me!' sign. All social media is like that. No one is telling you to lock your wife in the closet but it should be apparent to you that she likes to get her needs met online and that condition needs be eliminated.

There's also nothing stopping the OM from messaging her. Or somebody else.

Originally Posted by carsandkidz
I know it's still an extremely risky situation, more so with FB still alive but I'm hoping it's a double edged sword that can help hold her accountable for a while until we can move.


What does 'double edged sword' mean in this case? To me it means good aspects and bad aspects, and there are no good aspects of keeping a wayward triggered to my knowledge.

Are you testing the alcoholic with whisky? Because that is also known as setting someone up to fail.

My guess is that she will remain triggered and in withdrawal whenever she logs on to FB. From there she may get tempted to google OM. That is a common thing done in withdrawal.

Since you seem to be testing her, I don't imagine it will go down too well with you when you see that on your logs.

It just seems like a very unecessary risk to take so you can hear what people are having for lunch.
Posted By: JessicaClaire Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/03/13 06:54 PM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
The root cause of the affair isn't facebook, it's my wife's ability to set boundaries and stick to them, she identified this and is going to a counselor to learn how to change the way she views commitment and how to teach herself to stop. Facebook enabled her to cross boundaries, but so did homeowner's association meetings(where she met the OM), the gas station down the street(the only one close to the house), carpool line at the elementary school(the OM is unemployed and our kids go to the same school). To try to stop everything that enables her to make stupid decisions right now, she would have to lock herself in a closet with no phone, no computer, no tv, etc. and never go outside or talk to anyone because she has NO ability to stop doing dumb stuff. . . . All that is to say, her issues are way more serious than just cheating on me with another man. She realized this at some point sunday afternoon, and to be honest, I don't know the first way to help her relearn the basics on how to stick with boundaries that uphold her basic moral beliefs. . . . Our rule is, I always have her password and can sit on her FB account all day every day, if I want. There is a keylogger on our computer now, a nanny cam program on her phone and 250 friends and family that now know her warning signs and at least 200 of them, through the exposure, now want to help her keep this from ever happening. She is aware of all of this, is happy that it's in place.

I'm afraid you are wasting your time with a counselor who is encouraging your wife's navel-gazing, and trying to "change the way (your wife) views commitment." Perhaps you should ask your counselor how many marriages she has saved by diagnosing the problem as a faulty view of commitment. MrRollieEyes

You are correct that the root cause of your wife's affairs is her lack of boundaries with other men. The Marriage Builders program addresses that issue by requiring something called "Extraordinary Precautions" (EP's). EP's are absolutely necessary to "affair-proof" and protect the marriage from further infidelity. Dr. Harley recommends listing all the conditions that made the affair possible, and then eliminating each of those conditions. In your case, the numero uno condition is Facebook, so that should be the first thing to go. Since she has also used homeowner's meetings, a particular gas station, and the carpool line at school to facilitate her affair, she should be banned from each of those places as well. (I realize this is going to be inconvenient, but it's a heck of a lot easier than enduring another affair.) You admitted "she has NO ability to stop doing dumb stuff," so why are you giving her access to everything that enables her to continue doing dumb stuff? That is like telling an alcoholic that it is okay to continue hanging out in bars, because there is no way to guarantee that the alcoholic will remain sober by staying out of bars. Your counselor's advice defies common sense, and ignores the addictive nature of an affair.

Moreover, you are wasting time by trying to view this as a special case due to "deep-seated issues" and a lack of moral fortitude. Dr. Harley explains that anyone could be tempted to have an affair under certain conditions; the key to avoiding affairs is to avoid those conditions and strengthen the romantic relationship. Also, telling your wife about all of your snooping tactics just teaches her how to avoid getting caught. You're just letting her know that she'll have to buy a disposable phone, etc. the next time she feels like cheating on you. What is the point of that?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/03/13 07:04 PM
Dr H once told a WW she was never allowed to have a male boss ever again. This was a particular condition that had to be met because it was proving a problem for her. In this lady's case she wasn't able to withstand that condition without developing feelings for her superior.

It's natural for certain circumstances to make us feel connected to others.

It has nothing to do with morals, the human brain is designed to make connections with others too.

The male boss ban is unusual, but the FB requirement is q common. It is a website that was initially designed to connect single people and create dating opportunities. It was designed with a college-age audience in mind.

Now you can set up greater privacies and controls but it doesn't change the essential nature of the site.

And it is too late for you wife to experience FB this way anyway. For her it will always be the place she had her affair. It was a component of the drug she became addicted to.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/03/13 09:23 PM
"I know ya'll are going to think I'm crazy, but we didn't eliminate facebook. We did get rid of all friends of the opposite sex, and her password belongs to me and will for as long as we are married."

I would consider this a hopeless case. If after 2 affairs from Facebook you still don't get it, then you will NEVER get it.

Step one is to remove Facebook. If Facebook is more important than your marriage then you don't have a marriage and are wasting our time here.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/03/13 09:27 PM
"I understand what you are saying indiegirl. The root cause of the affair isn't facebook, it's my wife's ability to set boundaries and stick to them, she identified this"

The "root cause" is that your wife is addicted to Facebook and has demostrated over and over and over again that she cannot resist the temptation of being on Facebook.

Until you eliminate this foolish risk, your chances of recovery are hopeless and you will endure more affairs. Some people have to be hit over and over again to are up. I fear you are one of those people.

I also suspect you know your wife would rather leave you than give up Facebook. It is immensely more important to her than you and the kids.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/03/13 09:28 PM
C&K perhaps you can explain why you need it? I can't see any need for Facebook other than a lack of good books in the house.

I am getting the impression you feel a need to 'trust' your wife, so you are giving her scenarios in which she must prove herself?

Am I on the right lines or am I putting words in your mouth?
Posted By: JessicaClaire Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/03/13 10:34 PM
When I first read the subject line of your thread, "How do I compete with Facebook?" I assumed you weren't seriously trying to compete with a social networking website. Now I'm not so sure.

MelodyLane suggested your wife may be addicted to Facebook, and more likely to give up her marriage than give up the "fixes" she gets from that website. Are you afraid your wife will leave if you insist she close her Facebook account? The reasons you gave for allowing her to keep Facebook--after it led to 2 extramarital affairs!--do not make sense. There must be another reason. I'm wondering if this is it...

Dr. Harley has found that recovery is impossible if a spouse is actively engaging in an addiction, so the addiction must be addressed before marriage counseling can be effective. If your wife is actually addicted to social networking, then there is no point trying to recover from her affairs at this time. It won't be possible. (The reason is because an active addict will not follow the policies of radical honesty and joint agreement. Following those policies is essential in recovering from an affair.)
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/03/13 10:36 PM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
@gamma- she had an affair 3 years ago. I used the marriagebuilders program to help fix it then, but it didn't take much. She did an immediate 180 after leaving home for 3 days. The funny part is, it started with facebook, the same way this has begun. .

Ground hog day? think
Posted By: JessicaClaire Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/03/13 11:16 PM
If your wife isn't actually addicted to Facebook, you can begin recovery by eliminating Facebook and implementing the other necessary EP's. If she refuses to give up Facebook in order to begin recovery, that could be a sign that she is genuinely addicted to social networking on that website. If that is the case, then you're dealing with a "two-time, two-timer" who is actively engaging in an addiction which facilitates her extramarital affairs. doh2

Regardless of whether she is addicted to Facebook, it has got to be eliminated. You are setting yourself up for another false recovery if she keeps it.
Posted By: Justthe3ofus Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/04/13 12:07 AM
Cars...,
We are worried that the progress you make will be derailed by the very source of the problem: Facebook.

Facebook is a breeding ground for affairs, not just yours. And even though you are sharing a page, she can still run into people of the opposite sex. There will be people who try and friend her or who are seeking her out there. Their picture will pop up and she will be triggered. The very act of posting to the wall or messaging someone could trigger the memories of her affair and whet her appetite to contact the OM. Next thing you know she's opening up a secret account, and voila! The slippery slope.

I'll share a story with you. When my FWW ended her affair and came back home, she asked me to get rid of Facebook. Neither of us had started an affair on it. But she recognized the dangers of it, and I have to say, I agreed with her.

Facebook was a great way for me to stay in touch with distant relatives who I don't have contact with and old friends as well. But getting rid of it was a small price to pay for a marriage that is fully recovered and thriving. In fact, because I spend quality time with my wife and kids each night, I really don't miss Facebook. Food for though, mon ami.

The best thing you can do is forsake

Posted By: alis Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/04/13 12:14 AM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
I understand what you are saying indiegirl. The root cause of the affair isn't facebook, it's my wife's ability to set boundaries and stick to them, she identified this and is going to a counselor to learn how to change the way she views commitment and how to teach herself to stop. Facebook enabled her to cross boundaries, but so did homeowner's association meetings(where she met the OM), the gas station down the street(the only one close to the house), carpool line at the elementary school(the OM is unemployed and our kids go to the same school). To try to stop everything that enables her to make stupid decisions right now, she would have to lock herself in a closet with no phone, no computer, no tv, etc. and never go outside or talk to anyone because she has NO ability to stop doing dumb stuff.


She loves her kids, but put them in danger and compromised her most important values by driving them around after drinking and smoking around our oldest for several hours in our garage.

All that is to say, her issues are way more serious than just cheating on me with another man. She realized this at some point sunday afternoon, and to be honest, I don't know the first way to help her relearn the basics on how to stick with boundaries that uphold her basic moral beliefs.

All of our close friends and family, our entire support group communicates with each other through facebook, both hers and mine. We eliminated all friends of opposite sex for her, so what's left is a bunch of girls and our family members(both male and female). Our rule is, I always have her password and can sit on her FB account all day every day, if I want. There is a keylogger on our computer now, a nanny cam program on her phone and 250 friends and family that now know her warning signs and at least 200 of them, through the exposure, now want to help her keep this from ever happening. She is aware of all of this, is happy that it's in place. For the first time in the 12 years we've been together, she's talking to everyone about what happened, what's going to happen, why it happened, why it shouldn't have happened, how to keep it from happening ever again and she's asking for help from me, from our families, our friends, etc. She has always been closed off completely from everyone else, half closed off to me, so I believe this is a huge step.

I know it's still an extremely risky situation, more so with FB still alive but I'm hoping it's a double edged sword that can help hold her accountable for a while until we can move.


You are headed right into false recovery.

Change the way she views commitment?

She's drinking and partying and who knows what else with other men when she is apparently supposed to be watching little children.

This woman faces zero real accountability in her life and will not change until someone is hurt. Hopefully that means just a divorce and not getting into a car accident with your children in the car.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/04/13 12:38 AM
I would put some keylogger on her phone also. Desktopshark has a phone app now I am sure.
Posted By: JessicaClaire Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/04/13 12:56 AM
Originally Posted by alis
You are headed right into false recovery.

Change the way she views commitment?

She's drinking and partying and who knows what else with other men when she is apparently supposed to be watching little children.

This woman faces zero real accountability in her life and will not change until someone is hurt. Hopefully that means just a divorce and not getting into a car accident with your children in the car.

I agree 100%.

C&K: If she has driven drunk with your kids in the car--and is still abusing alcohol--I would petition the court for a Protection from Abuse (PFA) order against her on behalf of your kids. She does not have the right to endanger their lives, or the lives of anyone else on the road. If that's what she has been doing, you need to find someone else to be the primary caregiver for your children while you are at work.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/04/13 05:33 PM
Please read.
False Recovery-Need Voices of Experience
Posted By: SusieQ Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/04/13 06:33 PM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
The root cause of the affair isn't facebook, it's my wife's ability to set boundaries and stick to them, she identified this and is going to a counselor to learn how to change the way she views commitment and how to teach herself to stop. Facebook enabled her to cross boundaries, but so did homeowner's association meetings(where she met the OM), the gas station down the street(the only one close to the house), carpool line at the elementary school(the OM is unemployed and our kids go to the same school).

Dr Harley does not recommend going to a counselor to psychoanalyze why WS's end up having affairs when they engage in risky behavior, you realize that, right? Instead he recommends eliminating opportunities for affair. It really is THAT simple.

Your W being on FB and interacting with men without you around should be eliminated, period.

I wouldn't go along with this plan, cars. Waywards love love love to pursue counseling....it's a wonderful way for them to avoid changing bad behavior.
Posted By: Darkguy Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/04/13 07:12 PM
Counseling also doesn't hold the WS accountable for their action. Instead it becomes a huge excuse. For instance, a common excuse is childhood problems, abuse and etc. when the cause is KISS (keep it simple stupid) poor boundaries that lead to an open love bank. I wish you luck but at the same time your setting yourself up with a huge FR.
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/10/13 08:52 PM
Well, FB can't be gone. The wife won't shut it off. We just spent 5 days, 6 nights together with no FB, no phones, no kids, etc. That has put us in what seems like a good place, heard the words "I love you" for the first time in months and her actions toward me support the words, which means I'm making progress with my plan A.

If there is any good news with FB still in our lives, it is that she is only checking it maybe once a day. I like to think she will give it up completely soon, as she and I become interdependent again.

I am in the process of introducing the POJA, trying to work my way up to jointly working the MB program. We had a very simple conversation about the basic idea of the POJA, and she agrees it sounds good and wants to try it.

I don't want to create conflict with her right now, she's still going through withdrawal from the OM and I've made just enough deposits in her love bank for her to start feeling in love again. I know FB has to go, I'm going to have to keep working on getting us in a good enough place to make her want to do what it takes to meet my needs, hopefully that's not too far in our future.

We are selling our house, going to take about 3 weeks to get it ready to sell. We have also started house shopping, moving about 20 miles away from where we are, should eliminate the chance of contact with the OM. We are buying all new furniture, starting with the bed tomorrow, followed by the couch before we move.

By next month, the only trigger that might be left is facebook. Usage is down to almost nothing, when she doesn't think it is me being controlling and instead sees it for what it is, I will try to get her to give it up. I know it has to go away.

In the meantime, is there a good way to convince a stubborn woman who doesn't believe in "getting help" that the marriage builders program is worth working without undoing the little bit of progress we've made?
Posted By: alis Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/10/13 09:48 PM
You need to listen to ACTIONS and not WORDS. She has made a lot of words in her life but if she is unwilling to get rid of Facebook, it means she is not serious about recovery.

You are heading into false recovery. Whatever she SAYS doesn't change the fact that she is unwilling to protect your marriage still.
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/10/13 11:28 PM
She doesn't agree that facebook is a trigger. If she did, I believe she would quit facebook. Her actions and her words indicate that everything she believes is a trigger has been eliminated.

I have tried to reason this out to her but to no avail. So, I can run her off by demanding she quit facebook or disconnecting our internet, or I can find another way to bring her around to the truth as I know it.

It would seem the advice I get here says I'm better off running her off than trying to keep working on building up her love bank and getting her to embrace the MB program. I don't see the logic in that plan.

I DO appreciate all the advice, and I'm not jaded in believing my shaky relationship is anything close to affair proof right now. That being said, right now my wife is at home, looking at houses and texting or calling me every 20 or 30 minutes while I work. When I am with her, she doesn't want me to be anywhere but right next to her from the minute I walk in the door to the minute I leave for work. Every time one of our friends contacts her via text, email or phone, she tells me who, when, how, what they talked about, etc. She is smiling for the first time in 3 months and she has spent a total of 5 minutes on facebook in the last 3 days. She wants us to be strong, believes she is doing what it takes to be in love, rebuild our marriage better than it was and create a home life that will eliminate the unhappiness that led to her looking elsewhere. She doesn't know what ya'll know. I'm working on teaching her what I've learned and I believe that the more I can teach her, the more she will understand.

Posted By: alis Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/10/13 11:58 PM
It is your choice what to do, but you haven't done one of the most fundamental steps of affair recovery - removing the condition that facilitated the whole thing.

You can believe her if you wish, this is the same woman who married you and had affairs behind your back. So, while one day you may trust and verify her, now is NOT the time to do so. Right now, she has had plenty of time to chat on FB because you are not with her.

You are falling into the same trap as you have prior - doing nearly everything that Dr. Harley warns to NOT do, because it results in false recovery. I understand you don't want to drive her away - you are also demonstrating that you are willing to stay married no matter what, and that means even if she is going to have another affair or two. If she truly cared, she would be rid of it. She has not changed and you are ignoring that because you would rather listen to her words, not her actions. You are not standing up for yourself but again letting her dictate the terms. For women, this leads to a lack of respect and in her case, a continued behaviour. Women cannot respect men who do not take charge.

I wish you the best of luck but you are making classic mistakes, ones we see here all the time which typically return as false recoveries. Hopefully some past victims of false recovery will chime in soon to assist you.
Posted By: JessicaClaire Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/11/13 12:21 AM
She has put you through hell as a result of the extramarital affairs she began via Facebook. If she were truly remorseful and trying to do everything she possibly could to make you feel safe and secure in the relationship, the very first thing she would do would be to consent to your request to delete her Facebook account. If she genuinely wanted to spare you further anxiety, she would have closed her account without you even having to ask!

Dr. Harley says that if a spouse gives anything priority over the marriage, it could end up destroying the marriage. If your wife continues to prioritize her Facebook account over your marriage, your marriage will not survive. You've already seen proof of this for yourself. Why are you allowing it to continue?
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/11/13 12:37 AM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
I am in the process of introducing the POJA, trying to work my way up to jointly working the MB program. We had a very simple conversation about the basic idea of the POJA, and she agrees it sounds good and wants to try it.

This is a good start. It was exactly what I did. I introduced one piece of mb at a time so she could see the logic without it becoming overwhelming. FB is a problem still though. I hope you got some spyware on the pc and her phone. If its an android phone there is several apps you can actually find for free. Do a google search for free android spyware.

One step at a time... One day at a time.

Try and create some UA time where you listen to the daily radio show together. It helps tremendously and puts the concepts into a good logical perspective when you hear dr harley speak.

MNG
Posted By: Justthe3ofus Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/11/13 12:49 AM
The problem is this: you did not put your conditions in writing and stand firm with them. Since she has betrayed you in the worse way possible it would be perfectly fair and reasonable to expect her to meet the EP's that you set as a condition for her return. But if you are wishy washy, then those EP's get thrown out the window and you are back where you started.

This program works when the participants set clear expectations and those expectations are not compromised.

Whether you agree to do it or not, POJA is there. Either you do it or you don't. You are not doing it with respect to the issue of Facebook, and that is a problem for your marriage.

In the education we say that the first days of school are the most important because that is when the teacher lays down the law and sets clear expectations. Teachers who don't do this during the first days of school get walked all over for the rest of the school year. Not holding the WW accountable to EP's that you have set is analogous to a rookie teacher not laying out the rules and enforcing them early on. Prepare for the worst if you don't.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/11/13 02:04 AM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
She doesn't agree that facebook is a trigger. If she did, I believe she would quit facebook. Her actions and her words indicate that everything she believes is a trigger has been eliminated.

When I was a practicing alcoholic I also did not believe that alcohol was a problem. It was because I was not willing to give up my first love, which made recovery of my marriage impossible. I also believed that I was a great driver while drunk. Would you have allowed me to drive because I didn't agree drunk driving was a problem? It is the same with facebook. Your wife has now had 2 affairs so it is entirely unreasonable of YOU to even be negotiating this issue. Extraordinary precautions are not negotiable because they are intended to prevent another affair.

Her actions indicate that she is not serious about recovery of your marriage or she would eliminate the source of her LAST TWO affairs.

Your wife is very likely on facebook all day long and is going through these window dressing motions to get you off her back. I am sorry you have chosen to enable your wife.:(
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/11/13 02:08 AM
Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
[
This is a good start. It was exactly what I did. I introduced one piece of mb at a time so she could see the logic without it becoming overwhelming. FB is a problem still though. I hope you got some spyware on the pc and her phone. If its an android phone there is several apps you can actually find for free. Do a google search for free android spyware.

One step at a time... One day at a time.


Recovery after an affair is not "one step at a time." Extraordinary precautions to affair proof a marriage are not negotiable.

Here is the list as outlined by Dr Harley and he has NEVER EVER suggested it is "one step at a time." That is dangerous advice to be giving to someone who has just ended an affair.

From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.


Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/11/13 04:44 PM
**EDIT**
Posted By: JessicaClaire Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/11/13 05:05 PM
Originally Posted by Justthe3ofus
Whether you agree to do it or not, POJA is there. Either you do it or you don't. You are not doing it with respect to the issue of Facebook, and that is a problem for your marriage.

Justthe3ofus: I thought that basic EPs were not subject to POJA. If that correct, why do you think the Facebook EP is negotiable?
Posted By: MBsurvivor Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/11/13 05:08 PM
A reminder to posters to help this poster with Marriage Builders solutions. This is not the time or place for personal philosophies. If you can help posters implement these concepts we welcome your posts. We ask that you refrain from posting if you cannot. Thank you.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/11/13 05:13 PM
Originally Posted by JessicaClaire
Originally Posted by Justthe3ofus
Whether you agree to do it or not, POJA is there. Either you do it or you don't. You are not doing it with respect to the issue of Facebook, and that is a problem for your marriage.

Justthe3ofus: I thought that basic EPs were not subject to POJA. If that correct, why do you think the Facebook EP is negotiable?


I think Justthe3ofus is stating that irregardless of Extraordinary Precautions, we do not engage in activity that harms our spouse.
So if one spouse does not agree to having a facebook account, then it should be deleted per the POJA
Posted By: JessicaClaire Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/11/13 05:50 PM
Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight
Originally Posted by JessicaClaire
Originally Posted by Justthe3ofus
Whether you agree to do it or not, POJA is there. Either you do it or you don't. You are not doing it with respect to the issue of Facebook, and that is a problem for your marriage.

Justthe3ofus: I thought that basic EPs were not subject to POJA. If that correct, why do you think the Facebook EP is negotiable?


I think Justthe3ofus is stating that irregardless of Extraordinary Precautions, we do not engage in activity that harms our spouse.
So if one spouse does not agree to having a facebook account, then it should be deleted per the POJA

I thought the default condition for failure to POJA was to take no action. If that were applied here, they would have to take no action, which means her FB account would remain active. (That's one of the reasons I questioned the recommendation to subject the Facebook EP to POJA...)
Posted By: Prisca Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/11/13 05:53 PM
Originally Posted by JessicaClaire
I thought the default condition for failure to POJA was to take no action. If that were applied here, they would have to take no action, which means her FB account would remain active. (That's one of the reasons I questioned the recommendation to subject the Facebook EP to POJA...)

Actually, the default position would mean that neither of them would get on Facebook.
Posted By: JessicaClaire Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/11/13 06:02 PM
That makes sense, but would her account remain active even though she agreed not to use it? (I don't think EPs are subject to POJA, so this may be a moot point. Still, I'd like to understand what the default would be if FB were subject to POJA.)
Posted By: markos Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/11/13 06:12 PM
Originally Posted by JessicaClaire
That makes sense, but would her account remain active even though she agreed not to use it?

I suspect Dr. Harley would encourage them to get on and negotiate rather than debating what the default policy is for their specific case. If she stonewalls and keeps the account for months while they "negotiate," she is very likely to lose her marriage.
Posted By: Prisca Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/11/13 06:16 PM
Originally Posted by JessicaClaire
That makes sense, but would her account remain active even though she agreed not to use it? (I don't think EPs are subject to POJA, so this may be a moot point. Still, I'd like to understand what the default would be if FB were subject to POJA.)

I would say that EPs are not open to NEGOTIATION, but the POJA usually falls in line with them.
Posted By: Justthe3ofus Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/11/13 07:23 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by JessicaClaire
That makes sense, but would her account remain active even though she agreed not to use it? (I don't think EPs are subject to POJA, so this may be a moot point. Still, I'd like to understand what the default would be if FB were subject to POJA.)

I would say that EPs are not the open to NEGOTIATION, but the POJA usually falls in line with them.


Yes, those are my thoughts too. Just like exposure, EPs must trump POJA. The BS has to be safe, and EPs are there for protection. Safety first. And that is why I stressed the EP's have to be put down in writing, accepted by the wayward spouse, and enforced before any next steps in recovery happen. If the betrayed spouse compromises even one EP, then the dike has a hole in it. Trouble.

Sorry if I confused the issue. However, POJA is an issue moving forward. If his WW doesn't enthusiastically embrace the MB program, given her past behavior they are in for a false recovery at best.
Posted By: Darkguy Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/11/13 08:23 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by JessicaClaire
I thought the default condition for failure to POJA was to take no action. If that were applied here, they would have to take no action, which means her FB account would remain active. (That's one of the reasons I questioned the recommendation to subject the Facebook EP to POJA...)

Actually, the default position would mean that neither of them would get on Facebook.

Exactly otherwise EPs and Just Compensation will be viewed as a punishment.
Posted By: rainheaven Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/11/13 08:41 PM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
She doesn't agree that facebook is a trigger. If she did, I believe she would quit facebook. Her actions and her words indicate that everything she believes is a trigger has been eliminated.

I have tried to reason this out to her but to no avail. So, I can run her off by demanding she quit facebook or disconnecting our internet, or I can find another way to bring her around to the truth as I know it.

It would seem the advice I get here says I'm better off running her off than trying to keep working on building up her love bank and getting her to embrace the MB program. I don't see the logic in that plan.

I DO appreciate all the advice, and I'm not jaded in believing my shaky relationship is anything close to affair proof right now. That being said, right now my wife is at home, looking at houses and texting or calling me every 20 or 30 minutes while I work. When I am with her, she doesn't want me to be anywhere but right next to her from the minute I walk in the door to the minute I leave for work. Every time one of our friends contacts her via text, email or phone, she tells me who, when, how, what they talked about, etc. She is smiling for the first time in 3 months and she has spent a total of 5 minutes on facebook in the last 3 days. She wants us to be strong, believes she is doing what it takes to be in love, rebuild our marriage better than it was and create a home life that will eliminate the unhappiness that led to her looking elsewhere. She doesn't know what ya'll know. I'm working on teaching her what I've learned and I believe that the more I can teach her, the more she will understand.


Most, if not all parents I know wouldn't allow their kids to watch porn. So you put a block on your computer so it won't happen. No one wants to think their kids would deliberately go out and search for porn, and most of them don't even start off that way. So we put boundaries in place to make sure they don't. We also lay out the consequences if they break the rules. You do it to protect them and protect you. EP's are the same. Deleting facebook isn't being demanding, it is to put boundaries in place to make sure it doesn't happen again. And to lay out the consequences if it does (because let's face it, if they want to make it happen, they will, so there has to be a consequence). EP's are there to protect her and you (it's there to protect the marriage).

You don't let your kids watch a little bit of porn while making your love deposits in their banks. You can set boundaries and still do that. You set boundaries BECAUSE you love them. Your wife is the same. You're not running her off, you are setting EP's in place to make sure you have the best marriage possible.

And one thing to keep in mind, she will never want to get rid of facebook. That's like hoping that an obese person want to give up junk food. They don't ever want to, they do it because it's the right thing to do (most of the time they're forced to).

It's easy to mistake boundaries as punishment. EP's are there because of love. Do you love her (and care about your marriage) enough to make sure you set this up? That's the ultimate question.

Good luck!
Posted By: markos Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/11/13 09:07 PM
Originally Posted by rainheaven
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
She doesn't agree that facebook is a trigger. If she did, I believe she would quit facebook. Her actions and her words indicate that everything she believes is a trigger has been eliminated.

I have tried to reason this out to her but to no avail. So, I can run her off by demanding she quit facebook or disconnecting our internet, or I can find another way to bring her around to the truth as I know it.

It would seem the advice I get here says I'm better off running her off than trying to keep working on building up her love bank and getting her to embrace the MB program. I don't see the logic in that plan.

I DO appreciate all the advice, and I'm not jaded in believing my shaky relationship is anything close to affair proof right now. That being said, right now my wife is at home, looking at houses and texting or calling me every 20 or 30 minutes while I work. When I am with her, she doesn't want me to be anywhere but right next to her from the minute I walk in the door to the minute I leave for work. Every time one of our friends contacts her via text, email or phone, she tells me who, when, how, what they talked about, etc. She is smiling for the first time in 3 months and she has spent a total of 5 minutes on facebook in the last 3 days. She wants us to be strong, believes she is doing what it takes to be in love, rebuild our marriage better than it was and create a home life that will eliminate the unhappiness that led to her looking elsewhere. She doesn't know what ya'll know. I'm working on teaching her what I've learned and I believe that the more I can teach her, the more she will understand.


Most, if not all parents I know wouldn't allow their kids to watch porn. So you put a block on your computer so it won't happen. No one wants to think their kids would deliberately go out and search for porn, and most of them don't even start off that way. So we put boundaries in place to make sure they don't. We also lay out the consequences if they break the rules. You do it to protect them and protect you. EP's are the same. Deleting facebook isn't being demanding, it is to put boundaries in place to make sure it doesn't happen again. And to lay out the consequences if it does (because let's face it, if they want to make it happen, they will, so there has to be a consequence). EP's are there to protect her and you (it's there to protect the marriage).

You don't let your kids watch a little bit of porn while making your love deposits in their banks. You can set boundaries and still do that. You set boundaries BECAUSE you love them. Your wife is the same. You're not running her off, you are setting EP's in place to make sure you have the best marriage possible.

And one thing to keep in mind, she will never want to get rid of facebook. That's like hoping that an obese person want to give up junk food. They don't ever want to, they do it because it's the right thing to do (most of the time they're forced to).

It's easy to mistake boundaries as punishment. EP's are there because of love. Do you love her (and care about your marriage) enough to make sure you set this up? That's the ultimate question.

Good luck!

Good comments, rh, and it's good to see you sharing with others. I would steer clear of the term "consequences," as Marriage Builders doesn't advocate punishment, but rather protecting yourself, in the case of a spouse who will not protect the marriage; also because people need to be careful not to set up a disrespectful situation where one spouse is in control of the other like a parent and child.
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/12/13 07:22 PM
This is all good information. I'm feeling pretty hopeless on making progress at this point, hope that passes.

It's easy to say that giving up FB and wholly adopting the POJA and EPs is what has to happen. I BELIEVE that's what has to happen. The WW doesn't believe it has to happen. That's the conflict I'm trying to deal with. She believes there's nothing wrong with being on FB, believes that it isn't the reason she cheated. She views my request to get rid of FB as a selfish attempt on my part to control her. She DOESN'T believe in MB, wants no part of reading Surviving an Affair or even His Needs, Her Needs.

What I think I've figured out over the last few days is she's gone from withdrawal to conflict, completely self centered. She is open to her needs being met by me, but not really willing to meet mine. She is through with the OM, I've been through the messages in her phone and on FB and she sees it as a stupid mistake on her part. She believes going to counseling for herself will change how she thinks and acts. I know this won't work but I don't know how to change her beliefs without draining her love bank.

We found a new house, her dream house. I asked her to lunch yesterday just to get her to talk about our plans for the future and where she saw us as a couple. Her statements over lunch were pretty shocking to me. She claims she is falling in love with me all over again(thanks, plan A). She says that even though we have been together for 12 years, married for 8, that she had never really decided to be with me forever. She says that she now is committed to me for life because no one will ever make her as happy as I do.

What she didn't say was she wants me to be happy, has any interest in trying to do anything to make up for the A, etc. She did say we should stop talking about it and move on, that she's over it and I should be too.

The whole thing seems completely self serving. Granted, she's always been self centered, self absorbed. Should I give up and move on, break up my family for my own happiness? I don't believe that's what God would have me do but I don't know where else to go at this point.
Posted By: markos Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/12/13 07:45 PM
cars, do you think you could get her to talk to Steve Harley or Dr. Jennifer Chalmers at the Marriage Builders coaching center? Or to Dr. Harley on the radio show?

It sounds like your Plan A is working great, but I think you need to start bringing your Taker in: express your needs to her. Without judging her for being self-serving (her Taker needs to be satisfied as well), tell her about your emotional needs and what you need in order to feel fulfilled and satisfied and happy in your marriage, and in love with her. Keep the issues on the table: "I'm not happy with you being on Facebook. It's a hurtful reminder of what happened. And it's a risk I'm not comfortable with us taking. It's hurtful to me for you to be there." "I need us to spend enjoyable time together meeting both of our emotional needs in order to be happy."

How much time is she spending with you per week? Is she willing to follow the policy of undivided attention with you?
Posted By: Prisca Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/12/13 07:56 PM
Quote
It's easy to say that giving up FB and wholly adopting the POJA and EPs is what has to happen. I BELIEVE that's what has to happen. The WW doesn't believe it has to happen. That's the conflict I'm trying to deal with. She believes there's nothing wrong with being on FB, believes that it isn't the reason she cheated. She views my request to get rid of FB as a selfish attempt on my part to control her. She DOESN'T believe in MB, wants no part of reading Surviving an Affair or even His Needs, Her Needs.

You need to calmly keep making the request that she give up Facebook, and that she put EPs in place. Keep requesting that she start this program with you. Don't just stop talking about it. Tell her "This is what I need for us to recover." Plan A her for 6 months, all the while continuing to make these requests.

If after 6 months she doesn't even want to consider putting EPs in place, and refuses to join a program of recovery with you, you may need to look into Plan B. Contact Dr. Harley first, though, to get his insight -- sometimes he can help the BH Plan A longer. The danger here is that if she will not take these precautions to protect your marriage, and refuses to recover with you by giving you Just Compensation, she is headed for another affair. And if by some chance she never does have another affair, your marriage will be a crippled version of what it was before her affair. You will never be happy.

In the meantime, keep calmly telling her this is what you need. It is not a lovebuster for you to ask her to protect you and your marriage. She may not like it, but you need to keep asking.

How long have you been in Plan A so far? How often have you presented this program to her?
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/12/13 08:04 PM
She's not willing to talk to anyone about our relationship, I had to coach her through the entire conversation at lunch to get her to talk to me about us and I would have thought if she had all these thoughts about how good she felt about us, she would have been dying to share with me.

We spent 5 days together away from everything, just us. She was on FB for about 15 minutes in those 5 days, was genuinely trying to reconnect with me. Now that I'm back to work, we will probably just barely make the 15 hours a week minimum, which is terrible, I know. Her girlfriend's husband has a surprise party saturday night and we are going to that instead of being alone together and because he doesn't know he has a surprise party saturday, we are also going to their house friday night when I get off work. She is not following the policy of undivided attention correctly, our time together is 100% focused on my part, 80% focused on her part.

The willing part is tough with her. She says she is willing, but her actions being driven by self centered thoughts keep her from committing completely. That whole "A for effort, F for execution". Guess I get the same grade.
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/12/13 08:06 PM
Worthless plan A before I uncovered her affair for a month, exposed day after thanksgiving, real plan A two days later, so about 2 weeks.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/12/13 09:10 PM
Sorry your wife is being difficult.

You introducing POJA (as I stated earlier) is a GREAT start to feed her the MB goods. Her being in conflict is a good sign!

Maybe "accidenty" drop her phone in the toilet or a can of paint (less likely to recover it if it went into paint) and get her a dumb phone. Or a new one for xmas all setup with spyware!

In your defence when she tells you FB is not the problem. Ask her to put herself in your shoes. Ask her if you were chatting to women on FB and had an affair that was associated with FB if she would be ok if your continued use of FB. I doubt she would. You could also ask her if FB is more important than her marriage. You could also say that FB gives you anxiety and when she's on it, it withdraws all the efforts she's put in to recovering from her affair. In a calm manner of course.

Fb has to go or at the minimum a shared account ... Disconnect internet if you have to. She sounds like my entitled teenage daughter right now who just had a melt down cuz I put time restrictions on our home pc's. People are too attatched to cyberspace these days. What would she do if the power went out? Die? My kids reacted like they were gunna die lol. So much so my daughter was like a crack addict who just had her crack pipe taken away and yelled all sorts of nasty things to me. After a few days of getting over her withdrawl she's behaving nice again .. Manners and everything. Same with my son.

MNG
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/12/13 09:36 PM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
Worthless plan A before I uncovered her affair for a month, exposed day after thanksgiving, real plan A two days later, so about 2 weeks.

I am sure you have been doing plan a for months, so I would give yourself much more time than this. Since your wife is not serious about recovery, you might consider signing up for the MB online program. They are experienced in motivating spouses who have fallen out of love.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/12/13 09:42 PM
And I would most certainly NOT agree to a shared fb account because that does absolutely nothing to prevent her from trolling for men and communicating with them. She can still PM men on a shared account. She can still friend any and all men on a shared account.

Don't even suggest a shared fb account.
Posted By: markos Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/12/13 09:44 PM
Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
Fb has to go or at the minimum a shared account ...

Shared account, right, exactly the way my wife had an affair.

I wish this advice would quit getting repeated.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/12/13 09:49 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
Fb has to go or at the minimum a shared account ...

Shared account, right, exactly the way my wife had an affair.

I wish this advice would quit getting repeated.

Agree. It is dangerous advice.
Posted By: markos Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/12/13 09:49 PM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
She's not willing to talk to anyone about our relationship, I had to coach her through the entire conversation at lunch to get her to talk to me about us and I would have thought if she had all these thoughts about how good she felt about us, she would have been dying to share with me.

You need to continue to keep the issues on the front burner. Raise them even if she doesn't want to hear them. Write a letter if you have to. Be respectful at all times.

Quote
We spent 5 days together away from everything, just us. She was on FB for about 15 minutes in those 5 days, was genuinely trying to reconnect with me. Now that I'm back to work, we will probably just barely make the 15 hours a week minimum, which is terrible, I know. Her girlfriend's husband has a surprise party saturday night and we are going to that instead of being alone together and because he doesn't know he has a surprise party saturday, we are also going to their house friday night when I get off work.

I would quit agreeing to all these outside activities until the UA time is solid. Tell her that right now you aren't comfortable spending that time when there's barely enough time to rebuild your marriage.

See how much it affected her when you were able to get a lot of time together? That made some major love bank deposits! It caused her to feel like noone can make her as happy as you can! THAT WILL ALL GO AWAY IF YOU AREN'T ABLE TO SPEND FIFTEEN HOURS A WEEK TOGETHER. It will vanish like a vapor.

Quote
She says she is willing, but her actions being driven by self centered thoughts keep her from committing completely.

Don't call her self centered, because that's judgmental. There's nothing wrong with her wanting to get fulfillment out of your marriage. You need to make sure that she DOES get something wonderful out of it - it just has to be done in a way that is wonderful for you as well.
Posted By: markos Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/12/13 09:50 PM
Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
In your defence when she tells you FB is not the problem. Ask her to put herself in your shoes.

I wouldn't engage in the debate. She'll see that as disrespectful. Just firmly and repeatedly stick to the fact that it's not a risk you're willing to take.
Posted By: Prisca Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/12/13 09:59 PM
Quote
Ask her to put herself in your shoes. Ask her if you were chatting to women on FB and had an affair that was associated with FB if she would be ok if your continued use of FB. I doubt she would.
I doubt she'd care. I certainly didn't care if markos chatted up women while I was addicted to my FB affair. She'll use this as a "No, of course I don't have a problem with that, so you shouldn't either" argument. Don't go there.

Quote
You could also ask her if FB is more important than her marriage. You could also say that FB gives you anxiety and when she's on it, it withdraws all the efforts she's put in to recovering from her affair. In a calm manner of course.
These things are Disrespectful Judgements, and should be avoided.

Stick with "This bothers me" and "I need this to recover." Anything else, and you're risking Disrespectful Judgements and arguments.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/12/13 10:13 PM
Good perspective Prisca.

Your right.. She would likey respond like that. Almost like a spoilt teenager.

I only said those things as suggestions because they had a profound impact on my wife when she was addicted to guys on MSN messenger. My wife felt it was not ok for me to talk to women but it was ok for her to talk to men. So when I asked her to put herself in my shoes a light bulb went on in her head and things began to change for the positive. Slowly mind you.. But it was a start in the right direction.

Anyhow.. Listen to the vets. My situation and use of MB didn't happen like people hope it does. It took a long time (over a year actually) of living my side of MB with many setbacks due to her lack of participation or want to follow MB. As each MB rule came to a head in my wifes favor she shifted gears into the MB logic.

MNG
Posted By: MindMonkey Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/12/13 10:15 PM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
We spent 5 days together away from everything, just us. She was on FB for about 15 minutes in those 5 days, was genuinely trying to reconnect with me. Now that I'm back to work, we will probably just barely make the 15 hours a week minimum, which is terrible, I know. .. She is not following the policy of undivided attention correctly, our time together is 100% focused on my part, 80% focused on her part.

Don't beat yourself up man. You had five days together and felt she was trying to reconnect. That's a good thing. And applying percentages to UA time "focus" is bad juju. It's expected that all time together does not always equal UA time. Heck, 80% sounds pretty good to me. You have a gift...a willing WW. It ain't perfect but it could be a whole lot worse.
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/12/13 11:45 PM
tried the "put yourself in my shoes" speech in regards to FB. She said I was just being paranoid, that if she was going to cheat again, it would happen FB or no FB.(of course, said it would never happen again)

Going to keep on with plan A for now, keep mentioning how her being on FB is hurtful.

Also going to keep reading his needs, her needs in front of her. I've talked about it enough that she knows the basics. Will keep the changes I've made to meet her needs and create a safe home environment for her in place.



Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/12/13 11:58 PM
A question I wanted to ask-

We are moving, probably the beginning of January. We are buying a larger, more expensive house. This was part of our original plan together and carrying it out I think will help her mindset as well as get us away from the OM, which we both want.

We agreed to a budget to afford the new house that cancels internet access, both at home and on our phones. She believes this is solely to afford the house, I know this is also to get her off facebook. Our new budget also means we will be spending lots of time together in our new house with nothing to distract us(UA time). The budget restrictions are genuinely necessary for the first six months, so it's not deceptive in that regard but I'm wondering if I need to bring to light the secondary benefits I'm getting out of the move to continue to be open and honest with the wife.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/13/13 12:27 AM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
A question I wanted to ask-

We are moving, probably the beginning of January. We are buying a larger, more expensive house. This was part of our original plan together and carrying it out I think will help her mindset as well as get us away from the OM, which we both want.

We agreed to a budget to afford the new house that cancels internet access, both at home and on our phones. She believes this is solely to afford the house, I know this is also to get her off facebook. Our new budget also means we will be spending lots of time together in our new house with nothing to distract us(UA time). The budget restrictions are genuinely necessary for the first six months, so it's not deceptive in that regard but I'm wondering if I need to bring to light the secondary benefits I'm getting out of the move to continue to be open and honest with the wife.

This situation demonstrates why you are at affair #2 and are headed to affair #3. It is because you are a conflict avoider. As long as you choose to avoid conflict INSTEAD OF RECOVERING YOUR MARRIAGE, affairs will be your lot in life. Welcome to your future.

See, you have no plan of recovery. And having no plan is a plan to fail.

Staying off facebook is absolutely necessary to prevent another affair. It is an extraordinary precaution that should have been discussed with your wife years ago. Beating around the bush and avoiding conflict are not strategies for recovery of a marriage.

Your wife agreed to cancel the internet in order to get in the house because she knows you will never have the balls to cancel the internet. If you won't cancel it over 2 affairs, nothing will bring you to cancel it.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/13/13 04:14 AM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
A question I wanted to ask-

We are moving, probably the beginning of January. We are buying a larger, more expensive house. This was part of our original plan together and carrying it out I think will help her mindset as well as get us away from the OM, which we both want.

We agreed to a budget to afford the new house that cancels internet access, both at home and on our phones. She believes this is solely to afford the house, I know this is also to get her off facebook. Our new budget also means we will be spending lots of time together in our new house with nothing to distract us(UA time). The budget restrictions are genuinely necessary for the first six months, so it's not deceptive in that regard but I'm wondering if I need to bring to light the secondary benefits I'm getting out of the move to continue to be open and honest with the wife.

Facebook is an absolute poison.
My ex wife had her affair on facebook.
I have an account, all family members and mostly so my parents can see pics of the kids.
But when adultery has been involved it makes no sense to have facebook account.
I would demand the account is deleted. In cases of adultery you have that right to make demands
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/13/13 05:11 AM
If Facebook/internet were one of the conditions that allowed her to have her affair then it must be closed.

EPs need to be in place. An EP is; "change all conditions that allowed the affair".
Posted By: indiegirl Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/13/13 11:47 AM
Cars, Conflict avoidance will continue to dog your steps and discolour the marriage until you learn how to tackle it.

If you can't tell a two-time FB cheat that the FB party is over - how on earth are you going to stand up for yourself in the numerous PoJA conflicts that arise every day? Learn how to say NO now, when you have more right than ever to make yourself heard.

Party invitation that robs UA time and you're not enthusiastic? Say no. Internet access for a serial internet cheat? Say hell no.

Practice in the mirror. No is a very easy word and is not disrespectful!

I appreciate she is not on board with recovery and you are Plan A'ing her. I do get that and it is most certainly not unusual. But at no time should Plan A ever resemble Plan Doormat. Plan A involves showing her a reasonable and loving spouse who won't take any nonsense. No reasonable and loving spouse would keep a line open between his precious wife and multiple anonymous online affair partners. Not just allow, but pay for it? Craziness.

Plus, women don't respect a man they can walk over. Handle this.

Just cancel it and let her shout.
Posted By: JessicaClaire Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/13/13 02:20 PM
Your wife seems to expect unconditional love (something Dr. Harley warns against), and she does not feel compelled to meet your needs or protect your feelings. Your "giver" is dominating your behavior, and her "taker" is dominating hers. Dr. Harley explains that that sort of arrangement is unsustainable because your "taker" will eventually get fed up with it. Moreover, if you allow your wife to keep making these "lovebank withdrawals," your account will eventually become so depleted that you will fall out of love with her. Then, the last thread that was holding your relationship together will be broken.

EPs are not negotiable, and since she has had 2 affairs that began via Facebook, deleting Facebook should be at the top of your EP list. She doesn't get to veto that EP, and she doesn't get to delay it until you move. Her attitude is profoundly childish and selfish. If she continues expecting you to sacrifice so she can continue doing whatever she wants--regardless of how much it upsets you--then she is not a safe person for you to be married to. You are basically letting the drunk drive the car that you and your children are riding in. It is just a matter of time before she crashes it again. Don't you think it's about time that you take the wheel?

* Although I was speaking figuratively above, I'm also wondering if you ever took action to protect your kids from her driving drunk with them in the car. You cannot simply trust her to keep her promise not to do that anymore. I hope it doesn't take a tragedy to make you realize that you cannot afford to continue enabling her.
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/13/13 05:10 PM
The abusive drinking is over. The partying all night every weekend is over. She is making amends for her actions over the past few months, both to me and to our kids. We had another discussion about facebook last night and she actually listened to what I was saying about facebook and about protecting our marriage. She also opened up more to me about why she is defensive toward me, explaining that she has a guilty conscious. She feels like she's being watched, knows it's all her fault and hates herself for what she has done.

I think the fog has lifted. She's slow to process things and never wants to talk about anything, so talking about what happened and TAKING RESPONSIBILITY are huge steps.

I don't have a problem with conflict, don't have a problem telling her no. I'm so good at it, I told her no and created conflict so often I drove her away in the first place. I have to own what's mine, I'm an a hole, treated her that way for a long time. My part in making our marriage different means I have to learn to treat her with respect as an equal and respect her perspective.

On our first date, I told her I was who I was and was always going to do what I wanted, when I wanted. I stuck to that philosophy until 5 months ago. That's a lot of hurt I caused, and a lot I have to make up for to regain her trust. That also gives her a reason to keep her defenses up and not believe that what I'm saying is meant out of care.

I'm going to get her to shut off facebook. I'm going to get her in to the MB program. I'm going to continue to protect my kids. I understand that if any of this can't happen, I will be a single dad with three girls to raise and their mom will be a drunken whore forever- not judging, that's just a fact.

jessicaclaire- you're exactly right when you say my wife expects unconditional love and doesn't feel compelled to meet my needs or protect my feelings. We have talked about that a few times, very short conversations because she has a lot of guilt about it. She has no basis for how marriages are supposed to work, no one in her family ever stayed married and she is completely uneducated on the subject, so all she knows about marriage is what she saw on TV. Negotiating with her to get her to read some of Dr. Harley's books will change that, I believe. I understand that how we are right now is unsustainable, I might only last a few more weeks if she doesn't start caring for me.

Thanks again for your input. Some of my comments may make it seem like I'm not listening, but I am.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/13/13 05:20 PM
^---- great progress

Have your read this article (s) on unconditional love?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8110_ul.html

Keep up the good work!
Posted By: Prisca Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/13/13 05:21 PM
Quote
I understand that how we are right now is unsustainable, I might only last a few more weeks if she doesn't start caring for me.
You can last at least 6 months. If you start to feel depressed, get on antidepressants and contact Dr. Harley himself for support. He can often help BHs go longer in Plan A than they think they can.

Good job on bringing up Facebook. Keep doing so, respectfully, for the next 6 months you're in Plan A.

I don't think the fog has lifted yet from how she is talking. Give it more time to do so.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/13/13 05:24 PM
I too don't think the fog has lifted either. It is likely LIFTING but not lifted. Things will get clearer and clearer yet if you stay on the narrow path to recovery.

MNG
Posted By: indiegirl Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/13/13 05:29 PM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
I don't have a problem with conflict, don't have a problem telling her no. I'm so good at it, I told her no and created conflict so often I drove her away in the first place. I have to own what's mine, I'm an a hole, treated her that way for a long time. My part in making our marriage different means I have to learn to treat her with respect as an equal and respect her perspective.

On our first date, I told her I was who I was and was always going to do what I wanted, when I wanted. I stuck to that philosophy until 5 months ago. That's a lot of hurt I caused, and a lot I have to make up for to regain her trust.


OK, you feel guilty for independent behaviour. That is a separate issue though! You don't allow hers to make up for yours. You just apologise, say you're done with all that - but that you won't accept it from her.

Originally Posted by carsandkidz
She has no basis for how marriages are supposed to work, no one in her family ever stayed married and she is completely uneducated on the subject, so all she knows about marriage is what she saw on TV. Negotiating with her to get her to read some of Dr. Harley's books will change that, I believe. I understand that how we are right now is unsustainable, I might only last a few more weeks if she doesn't start caring for me.


The carrot and stick will still work really well though. She doesnt need to be educated about relationships to respond.

All she needs is ENs creating the motivation of romantic love(carrot) and to know you won't brook any nonsense or lovebusters from her (stick). She will become more motivated and knowledgable over time.
Posted By: Prisca Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/13/13 05:38 PM
Quote
If you start to feel depressed, get on antidepressants and contact Dr. Harley himself for support.

In fact, go ahead and email him now. He can help keep you motivated down the right path.
Posted By: JessicaClaire Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/13/13 07:29 PM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
I might only last a few more weeks if she doesn't start caring for me.
Dr. Harley says that betrayed husbands can often tolerate Plan A longer than betrayed wives, but the length of time a betrayed spouse can stay in Plan A varies according to the particular situation and individual. If it gets to the point where you feel like you are falling out of love with her--assuming you still want to try to save your marriage--you should switch from Plan A to Plan B. The reason is because Plan B blocks contact with her, preventing her from being able to continue withdrawing "lovebank units," so your remaining feelings of love are not depleted. (For that reason, it doesn't make sense to wait until you have fallen out of love with her to switch to Plan B.)
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/13/13 09:00 PM
"I don't have a problem with conflict, don't have a problem telling her no. I'm so good at it, I told her no and created conflict so often I drove her away in the first place. I have to own what's mine, I'm an a hole, treated her that way for a long time. My part in making our marriage different means I have to learn to treat her with respect as an equal and respect her perspective. "

Conflicts do not drive spouses away unless they are handled with anger or disrespect. The other side of that ugly coin is conflict avoidance, which is what we see here. You have not even told her what it will take to recover your marriage which means there will be no recovery.

Couples have conflict every day. That will never go away. But that won't matter if you end up divorced because you wouldn't even mention the most basic EP to your wife.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/14/13 03:53 AM
Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/17/13 04:55 PM
update after an interesting weekend.

Still no progress on giving up facebook, but there's a new ray of hope that a solid plan could be in the works- my wife is going to read HNHN this week. I know, it's not Surviving an Affair, but it's way better than what she's done so far.

I can only pray that her willingness to read the book translates to a willingness to embrace the program and start working on building our marriage the right way.

Any advice on how to encourage her as she reads the book?

My first(I'm sure misguided) thought is to explain to her how this program has already begun to save our marriage by shaping my understanding of marriage, guided me in how to meet her needs, showing her this thread. I'm guessing that's too drastic.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/17/13 05:07 PM
Well I would caution you that hope is not a plan. Hope is all very well, but your Plan is Plan A.

I don't think I would encourage HNHN. Dr H actively discourages it with waywards because they misinterpret it so often. They often use a lack of needs to justify their A. The book warns of A's as a result of needs not being met but the book is not meant for waywards to use for justification.

Plan A is carrot and stick, so

Carrot - If she must read it, I'd get her to list her ENs, for Plan A purposes. You could also hold interesting conversations on the topic or listen affectionately to her justifications/excuses. Don't accept her reasoning though, just say that's all over and wont feature in your new marriage.

Stick - I'd continue to make it clear you expect her to ultimately follow the plan in SAA. Anything less cuts no ice with you.
Posted By: JessicaClaire Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/18/13 03:56 PM
You said your wife used to spend 12 hours a day on Facebook, and now she has cut back to only 5 mins per day. First off, I don't believe she is only on it for 5 mins per day. But even if that were true, it would suggest she has broken her addiction/obsession to Facebook, and prove that she values spending 5 mins per day on Facebook more than she values you. Regardless, it is just a matter of time before her FB use becomes excessive again, and highly likely she'll be using it to conduct Facebook affair #3.

She is Lucy and you are Charlie Brown. We are all watching from the bleachers, yelling "Stop trying to kick the football! She is going to yank it away!" But you refuse to listen.

Have you emailed Dr. Harley regarding your current situation?
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/18/13 07:54 PM
I have emailed Dr. Harley about my situation, received a call from Mrs. Harley today but was unable to answer. Will be talking to her tomorrow morning.

Just to reiterate where I am- I am snooping more now than I did when she was in the affair, have spy program with keylogger, screen shots, etc. on computer and phone. I know where she is, who she's talking to, what she's doing 24 hours a day. When I say she is on facebook maybe 5 minutes a day, that is because I know that to be true, not because she told me so. I know the plan is SAA is the ONLY way to make sure our marriage is strong and affair proof and I realize that even one part of the program not being followed means my marriage is over.

I have communicated all of this to my wife, and continue to remind her of this every few days. She does not agree that 100% of the plan is necessary. She agrees with honesty, open communication, accountability 24/7. She doesn't agree with the rest 100% yet, I am trying to work up to that.

In the meantime, she thinks we are doing great, is in love with me again and sees us being together forever with no more problems. She's naive. She takes full responsibility for the affair, is open about what happened but doesn't understand why it happened. She thinks there is something inherently wrong with her and the way to fix it is through counseling. Of course, she cut off all contact with the OM and we are moving to make sure there's no accidental(or intentional) contact with him.

I'm not Charlie Brown. I understand what has to happen. I can't force her to accept the truth, she is too stubborn. I have to approach this differently than by force. From what some have posted, I'm not the first to have to take this route and, with patience and perseverence, this way works so long as we end up working the plan in SAA completely.

That's where I'm trying to get to.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/18/13 09:34 PM
You say a lot of good things so far as Plan A goes, however the mention of a counsellor gives me the heebie jeebies. A counsellor will have her doing back flip navel gazing so as to run up a long term bill. Hopefully she will agree to speak to the Harleys.

I realise you know that it won't help, and that applying HNHN to an A wont help. I know you also understand that FB has to go.
But my point is that these things are not benign things to be endured until she 'gets it'. They will actively hurt you and you should not act as though it is acceptable.

You are in a good position to make sure she adheres to PoJA and EPs so I cannot understnad why you dont make sure you stand your ground.

Five minutes of supervised Facebook isnt benign and you know it. Even if it were not trigger city for her A, or the gateway for affair number three, it still must be a huge betrayal trigger for you. Every time she goes on it it must be a renewed slap in the face. Look at your thread title for crying out loud.

Posted By: JessicaClaire Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/18/13 11:58 PM
You said that she claims to only use Facebook for the purpose of staying in touch with close family and friends. Correct? And you have exposed both of her affairs to those people. Correct? I'm wondering if you could write a "follow-up" exposure letter, reminding those people that your wife has used Facebook to conduct 2 different extramarital affairs, and despite your requests that she close her Facebook account, she continues logging into Facebook on a daily basis.

I would explain that she has cut back her Facebook time dramatically, however, she has proven repeatedly that she cannot use it in moderation for any length of time. Let them know that she used to be so addicted/obsessed with Facebook that she would use it throughout the entire day (12 hours), so your children were often neglected until you came home from work. Once these people understand that your wife's use of Facebook has nearly destroyed your family--and her continued use of it is a daily reminder of the most painful experiences you've ever endured--you may not even have to ask them to "unfriend" her. But I would ask them to do exactly that. She won't get much out of her Facebook account if she has no Facebook friends.

In your exposure letters, you asked these people to support your marriage. This is a specific request for that same purpose. When she finds out you told everyone about her cruel/reckless insistence on keeping her Facebook account active, as well as her history of addiction to/obsession with that website, she may be too embarrassed to log back on. smile
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/19/13 12:40 AM
Let us know when you will be on the show.
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/20/13 10:33 PM
jessicaclaire- I see where you're going with that and it might serve it's purpose, or it might not. When I exposed via FB, I got the desired result- the affair ended. Also, our friends were supportive of ending the affair and saving our marriage but the public exposure was viewed by most as a vindictive move on my part, so I would be hesitant to make that kind of move right now.

I will be a caller on the show this coming monday. My wife knows about it but won't be participating.
Posted By: karmasrose Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/21/13 02:53 AM
It is not vindictive.
Posted By: Going_Forward Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/21/13 05:01 AM
**edit**
Posted By: Darkguy Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/21/13 05:04 AM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
jessicaclaire- I see where you're going with that and it might serve it's purpose, or it might not. When I exposed via FB, I got the desired result- the affair ended. Also, our friends were supportive of ending the affair and saving our marriage but the public exposure was viewed by most as a vindictive move on my part, so I would be hesitant to make that kind of move right now.

I will be a caller on the show this coming monday. My wife knows about it but won't be participating.

The fact she can FB but can't be on the show to help your marriage speaks volumes.
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/24/13 05:51 PM
Quick update on my world-

Joyce rescheduled with me for thursday, dec 26th, so if you were waiting to hear what Dr Harley says I need to do, you'll have to wait a couple more days.

In the meantime, the wife and I have made some small progress, and I've learned a little more about her mindset.

First, she is no longer going to counseling on her own. We cancelled the individual sessions and now have joint sessions scheduled. The counselor is familiar with the MB program, so I will be able to get somewhere, I think. Also, I got the wife to talk about what she wants out of our marriage. She wants exactly what the MB program helps build and acknowledges we need help to get there. She is ready to start reading Dr Harley's books but I am stalling that until after I get to talk to him.

On to her mindset- sunday night, a conversation about moving and getting a fresh start turned in to a conversation about where we stood on rebuilding our marriage. In that conversation, she told me she feels like she's walking on eggshells, being watched, etc. Of course, she is being watched but it's not because I think she's still talking to the OM. I know that is done, he is back with his wife, she is back with me and, for now, she knows I'm hurting every day and wants it to stop. She broke down crying(which she hates to do) about how she's over it, hates that it happened and wants me to be over it. She said that she only thinks about it when I bring it up. She also said that she doesn't know why or how it happened, that it just happened.

This made me think. If I were in her shoes, hurt, confused, feeling worthless, with no understanding of why I allowed something like this to happen, how would I feel?

I would want it to go away too, pretend like it didn't happen.

I left it alone for the rest of the night, and started a conversation monday afternoon that led to the change in her counseling. She understands that I'm not going to let it just go away, we are going to have to work through it together and there will be more changes in our lives to keep an affair from being a possibility. She still doesn't understand what those changes HAVE to be or why, I'm planning on Dr Harley guiding me on how to bring her to see those changes. The important part I took away from our conversations this weekend is that she is becoming willing to see my side of things, willing to make decisions with my perspective in mind.

Now a question- I've been struggling with being the "back up plan." Meaning, if I hadn't exposed the affair, there's a good chance she would have left me for the OM. I found an email from two days before exposure where she was trying to decide whether to leave me for him or cut it off with him for me. It was an interesting read because I didn't realize she had doubts about leaving. I thought she had committed to leaving me as soon as the OM was ready but her questions to him showed me that they both had doubts about leaving their respective spouses for each other. The email was never sent, she saved it as a draft and I exposed two days later and the affair blew up but I can't help but wonder if she would have decided to end it and stay or leave.

My hurt thinking says she would have left but exposure stopped that plan and she decided to stay because it was easier than going. I've brought that question up a few times and she has always answered the same- she has other places to go, if she wanted to leave, she would have left. She says she is right where she wants to be.

I know she has other places to go, and I know she is taking more care with me and trying to be closer to me, more open with me and more affectionate with me than she has been in years but I still have the doubts about being her first choice.

How have ya'll coped with this feeling?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/24/13 06:12 PM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
I've been struggling with being the "back up plan." Meaning, if I hadn't exposed the affair, there's a good chance she would have left me for the OM.


Emotionally there's no way for this not to suck. So stick to logic. In the light of day - you were the clear winner. He only made sense in the deep dankest of dungeons where there is no clear vision.

Plus you are her hero. You exposed and saved her from an affairage.
Posted By: Justthe3ofus Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/24/13 06:18 PM
Cars,
If she is willing go through the program and do just compensation, you will worry less and less about the choices she was considering. The fact is your marriage was not working, which in no way excuses her affair, but if she gets on board with the MB program, and you both carry out its principles all the way, your marriage will recover and be better than ever. And if that happens I guarantee you that she will be ecstatic that she made the choice to stay with you. So will she. smile

Great job contacting the Harley's. They will tell her to lose Facebook, I'm sure. And when they do, it will be interesting to see how your wife responds. I am praying she passes the test.

Your wife is a little foggy still. Her concern about "walking on eggshells" is a selfish response. She has no clue about how much this has hurt you. Time for your wife to develop a little more empathy. She also needs to learn about EP's and radical honesty. If she can't accept these concepts and returns to her independent behavior, then a full recovery will not happen.


Good luck, friend!
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/26/13 09:37 PM
Ok, talked to the Harleys today. Unfortunately, it left me with little resolved and seemingly little gained.

To sum up my view of how it went, Dr. Harley sympathizes with my conflicted situation. He said she should be willing to give up facebook and work through SAA with me. He also said she probably views romantic relationships as a recreational activity and that we are probably headed for another affair. There was some talk of her possibly still being in the "fog" and maybe she will become more empathetic as time goes on, but as of now it doesn't sound like she fully understands how much hurt she caused.

Of course, after I talked to him I talked to my wife. She showed interest in what he had to say, at first, then told me that he was all wrong about her. She claims to understand how much hurt she caused, believes we are on the right track and that we will be fine. Her plan to never cheat again is to not flirt with anyone anymore. She believes that, coupled with being open and honest and paying attention to each other is enough. She is adamant that talking about it every few days(or at all) or reading a book, working a plan for recovery is all a waste.

Guess I keep doing what I'm doing for now...
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/26/13 09:40 PM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
He also said she probably views romantic relationships as a recreational activity and that we are probably headed for another affair

Yes, this was my takeaway too. frown I see more affairs in your future.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/26/13 10:56 PM
c&k, I just listened to your discussion and basically Dr. Harley said to focus only on the book SAA and implementing EPs. He told you if she won't do those things, that this is headed to another affair and that your marriage will really be over when that happens.

When I heard that, it seemed to me that you have nothing to lose in DEMANDING that she adhere to EPs, because your marriage is a goner anyway. You can die the long, slow way and just wait for another affair or push her NOW and get out while you can.

Did I see somewhere that you are in Texas? Did you know that you can use adultery to gain an advantage in divorce in Texas? Since her affair is fresh, you do have that advantage.

If I were in your shoes, I would DEMAND that she adhere to EP's or prepare to be served with a divorce. since you are headed to divorce anyway, why not shorten the process and avoid the inevitable 3rd affair?
Posted By: Justthe3ofus Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/27/13 12:02 AM
Cars,
Dr. Harley has confirmed what we have been saying: your wife is not willing take the extraordinary precautions that will make you safe. Her refusal to get on board with the program is really her saying, "I'm going to do the same thing all over again and expect different results." But her history of putting down barriers around other men online is the only hard data you have to go by.

Well, it is not too late to demand that she accept the EP's you have in place. When my wife and I made our recovery, at first she was lax in taking the EP's I put in place. She didn't take them seriously. When I saw that she wasn't, I called it off. She saw that I was firm and serious, and so she got on board realizing that skipping the EP's weren't worth losing the marriage over. Why can't you set these same expectations for your wife. They are fair and reasonable, and they are the conditions that you have the right to set to ensure your safety after she has violated the marital covenant.

By the way, I got rid of Facebook, and it wasn't even part of the problem. But we both saw that it can lead to problems so I took it out of my life as part of the EP package deal. And guess what. There IS life after Facebook. You should stand firm on this now, or you will regret it later. Otherwise you are setting yourself up for a false recovery, which will be very painful. Why put yourself through it again? It is your choice: take the easy way and pay in the future, or take the hard way now and spare yourself bigger grief later.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/27/13 12:32 AM
So she's still not willing to put EPs in place and to protect you and your marriage?
Posted By: JessicaClaire Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/27/13 02:58 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
So she's still not willing to put EPs in place and to protect you and your marriage?

If I understand correctly, she believes that the only necessary EPs are for her to (1) try not to flirt with other men, and (2) delete a bunch of male Facebook contacts.

I believe she thinks those 2 things should count as her EPs, and carsandkidz is afraid she'll leave if he insists on a legitimate list of EPs.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/27/13 09:00 PM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
Ok, talked to the Harleys today. Unfortunately, it left me with little resolved and seemingly little gained.

To sum up my view of how it went, Dr. Harley sympathizes with my conflicted situation.

I listened to the radio show as well.

I think Dr Harley would encourage you to listen to someone like me...who spent years working on a false recovery with a spouse who was not on-board.

Let me tell you, if you think the first two affairs hurt, that is nothing compared to the pain and humiliation you will feel when she does this to you again...after you have been knocking yourself out fighting for a marriage while she continues on doing what she pleases at your expense.

You realize that a spouse that is unwilling to implement a simple EP to ease your concerns after having TWO AFFAIRS is not going to follow POJA or work very hard to meet your needs or avoid lovebusters, right? She is just going to sit by and watch you do all the work and keep doing what is in HER best interests.

Ask me how I know.

At least your WW is being very upfront with you about what she is not willing to do . Had my WxH had been so honest, I would not have wasted three years of my life trying to save a marriage that was not worth saving....living with a dark cloud over my head wondering if he was going to hurt me again. I think Melody has said that hanging onto a wayward is like hanging on to a corpse. What an accurate description.

At least I can say that I was tricked. Your WW is telling you very clearly what your future holds frown
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/30/13 02:57 AM
Here you go.
Radio Clip of carsandkidz's Show
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4
Posted By: Darkguy Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/30/13 05:28 AM
Good information I learned a lot from it. Good luck Cars
Posted By: Justthe3ofus Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/30/13 05:31 AM
Cars,

Did your wife listen to the call? If not, I think it will help you if she does.
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/31/13 03:57 PM
Sorry I haven't been here to respond, after the show my wife's grandfather died and we have been out of town dealing with that.

The perspectives shared here are very interesting, give me great insight into what I am dealing with.

First, my wife hasn't listened to the show. We talked about it, talked about what Dr Harley said about her, her state of mind and what he believes needs to happen. Her responses were honest, I believe. She has been completely honest with me since exposure, and has kept all of the commitments she has made. She disagrees when we talked about how she views romantic relationships, disagrees that she doesn't understand the depth of the hurt she has caused. She still diagrees that facebook has to go but it's going in two weeks anyway, along with internet access and she's ok with that.

SuzieQ- We were in a false recovery for 3 years. This affair showed both of us that. From the second day after exposure she and I agreed that we didn't fix what was wrong with our marriage the last time she cheated and neither of us wants that again.


Today is our first marriage counseling session. The counselor is familiar with MB and knows all about my wife. We will see what kind of progress we can make...
Posted By: Darkguy Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 12/31/13 07:11 PM
If she isn't willing to listen to a radio show your headed to a FR. Personally, I would be making plans to protect yourself as many said another affair will happen in your future if nothing changes. If she is a housewife why couldn't she be on the show?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/01/14 09:13 AM
Will she write Dr. Harley? The Harleys are always welcoming to hear from both sides to get their perspectives.

Is she, at very least, willing to do this?
Posted By: JessicaClaire Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/01/14 04:08 PM
On Nov. 30, your wife admitted to her most recent affair. About 2 weeks later, you wrote:

Originally Posted by carsandkidz
I'm going to get her to shut off facebook. I'm going to get her in to the MB program. I'm going to continue to protect my kids. I understand that if any of this can't happen, I will be a single dad with three girls to raise and their mom will be a drunken whore forever- not judging, that's just a fact.

It has now been a solid month since D day, and you still haven't gotten her to shut off Facebook, and you still haven't gotten her into the MB program. Surely, you realize that you are in another false recovery. At least you understand where this is going...
Posted By: Justthe3ofus Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/01/14 05:44 PM
Look at this way. If your son or daughter were a two-time recovering alcoholic and was offered a promising job at a really swanky mid town bar, what would you advise?

As Dr. Harley kept saying in the show, you're in a really tough spot. But he also unequivocally stated that he sees another affair in your future. Brace yourself...

Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/02/14 07:15 PM
I don't think we're in a false recovery. We're not in recovery yet. I am working towards recovery, she is working towards recovery but so far all we've done is stop the affair and talk about recovering and moving forward. Guess I should give credit where credit is due- there are some boundaries in place where there were none before and there is some willingness to meet emotional needs that wasn't there for the last 3 years(baby steps).

There will have to be a willingness to change some things in her life to protect our marriage and make amends before we can start recovering.

You're right, jessicaclaire, it's been a month since D day. The fog is just starting to lift. I'm not comfortable with where we are and we still have to get away from facebook and into MB. If things went according to plan, we would already be there.

Keep working plan A...
Posted By: markos Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/02/14 07:26 PM
Hi, cars,

So sorry to hear about your wife's grandfather. I hope she was able to receive a lot of care from you.

I'm listening to your show right now, and it's available in the radio archives:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=05628
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=05629
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=05630
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=05631
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=05632
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=05633

It sounds like Dr. Harley was suggesting that you just unilaterally delete the Facebook account, but I haven't finished listening, yet.
Posted By: markos Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/02/14 07:29 PM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
I don't think we're in a false recovery. We're not in recovery yet. I am working towards recovery, she is working towards recovery but so far all we've done is stop the affair and talk about recovering and moving forward. Guess I should give credit where credit is due- there are some boundaries in place where there were none before and there is some willingness to meet emotional needs that wasn't there for the last 3 years(baby steps).

There will have to be a willingness to change some things in her life to protect our marriage and make amends before we can start recovering.

You're right, jessicaclaire, it's been a month since D day. The fog is just starting to lift. I'm not comfortable with where we are and we still have to get away from facebook and into MB. If things went according to plan, we would already be there.

Keep working plan A...

cars, take that woman out on a date!

What are you doing daily to make massive love bank deposits? The degree to which she cares about your complaints will be heavily dependent on your balance in her love bank. My wife's willingness to engage me in recovery after her facebook affair was also very similarly dependent. She didn't just automatically start doing all the right things and responding to my complaints out of a feeling that she owed it to me. I had to win her back, which required a lot of tuning to my approach as a husband, and a lot of long persistence (and a few months on antidepressants).
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/02/14 07:50 PM
markos, we are spending about 40 hours a week together now. I am doing the laundry, which is the #1 thing she hates doing at home. We have gone out to dinner together at least 3 nights a week for the last month, some days we talk for 5-6 hours on the phone, other days she hangs out with me at my office for the same amount of time. According to her, she is completely happy with me, doesn't want me to change anything and her actions are starting to show it.

There has been a lot of attention on our move. We are two weeks away from moving, so the pressure is on to pack our house and get everything situated at the new house. This is an end for facebook, as our new jointly-agreed upon budget doesn't include internet access at home and internet on the phones went away on the 1st. Stress is something the wife can't handle, so I've been able to listen while she vents over her body aches and how tired it makes her, etc.

My wife's been on antidepressants for 6 years, has a dr appt in a couple of weeks to look at adjusting dosage.
Posted By: Prisca Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/02/14 08:01 PM
Dr. Harley told you in segment D to get her to agree to read SAA. Will she agree to read SAA?
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/02/14 08:11 PM
She agreed to read Dr Harley's book. At the time, all I had was HNHN, now have both and she doesn't know which is which. She will read SAA but it won't be until after the move.

Our counselor is also familiar with Dr Harley's work and she is gently pushing my wife toward the program.
Posted By: Prisca Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/02/14 09:22 PM
Quote
She agreed to read Dr Harley's book.
This is GOOD.
Posted By: DidntQuit Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/02/14 11:20 PM
When we are facing a stressful family time like during the holidays or when a big event is coming up (like moving), one of the best things my husband has done is to takers me out somewhere to discuss a plan for the upcoming event or project. This reduces my stress quite a bit because it gives us the opportunity to negotiate and eliminate most differences of opinion. This definitely puts in love units and reduces my stress. it also helps me that feel like our relationship is still a priority. There always going to be things that threaten UA time.

When the project is over, I have a happy memory of a the big accomplishment, instead of a memory of us arguing over things we could have considered prior.

We actually bring a notebook and necklace and it retained a copy so that we can father what we agreed to.

I'm not sure if this would actually help your wife or bother her more. But it's just a suggestion.
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/08/14 11:56 PM
7 days to moving, still working towards the goal of eliminating facebook and starting to work through SAA.

Good news is she is starting to become empathetic to my perspective. Facebook isn't gone yet but she has almost stopped using it, and she has expressed an understanding of why I want it gone without attacking me over it. Of course, that's not enough but it is progress.

She is also trying to meet my emotional needs, putting effort into making me feel secure and starting to adjust the way she listens to and cares for me. We even had a conversation about the most important emotional needs. I found out she can't identify hers and knows exactly what mine are.

I've been working on empathy for her, realized I have none, never did, and that has to be frustrating for her(see, I practiced empathy lol)

With the move a week away, we have been discussing the kids and their school. Trying to do things in the best interest of our kids, as well as the best interest of our road to recovery, we have been weighing whether to let them finish out the school year at their current school or move them for the last 3 months.

Option A- Move schools. Initially, this was our first choice. The current school is the same school the OM's kids go to and in keeping with the "no contact" policy we have in place, it seemed like the only option. Unfortunately, this option is very upsetting to my two youngest girls and makes it hard to force them to move. This is also something both my wife and I went through several times growing up and both have bad memories of it.

Option B- Stay in the current school. Obviously, this looks like a bad choice. But with a little different routine, we can avoid contact- to stay in the current school, I would have to take the kids to school in the morning, avoiding a chance meeting there with the OM by the wife. In the afternoons, we would have to use the after school care for an hour which we believe would avoid any chance contact. This is what our kids want and we want kids with as few scars as possible without jeopardizing our relationship.

Our new house is far enough away to avoid the OM but close enough that this can be a choice instead of made for us. Has anyone else been in this situation?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/09/14 12:11 AM
It might be uncomfortable for your kids initially, but it is in their best interest to leave their school and get the whole family away from the OM while you still have a marriage. It is not in their best interest for you to prolong that risk. Be sensible and get your whole family out of there ASAP.

Of course it is upsetting to them. But you don't place their security at risk because they are "upset."
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/09/14 12:12 AM
Sorry to hear there is absolutely no progress on your marriage.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/09/14 12:14 AM
You are always "working towards" goals, which is not the same as achieving goals. It is smoke.
Posted By: Darkguy Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/09/14 12:47 AM
ML is right as for as your options No contact is for both spouses. EPs are for both spouses. Also, I sense you are probably participating in lovebusters to achieve this read SAA goal. This will fail and she will have another affair. You need to list what needs to be done with a deadline. I hope you have your finances proctected it isn't unheard of a WW to leave a BH and drain accounts.

Add: I heard on the radio show that Dr. Harley recommends post nuptials. Say for example if she has an affair, she loses custody, alimony and whatever you deem fit. Of course she has to agree to what goes in it. This is an awesome test of her commitment to recovery.
Posted By: pokerface Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/09/14 01:28 AM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
Option B- Stay in the current school. Obviously, this looks like a bad choice. But with a little different routine, we can avoid contact- to stay in the current school, I would have to take the kids to school in the morning, avoiding a chance meeting there with the OM by the wife. In the afternoons, we would have to use the after school care for an hour which we believe would avoid any chance contact. This is what our kids want and we want kids with as few scars as possible without jeopardizing our relationship.

Has anyone else been in this situation?

Yes I have and you may not have thought about school activities and performances. It is almost guaranteed that OM will come to see his kids in school performances, sporting events, award ceremonies, etc. I can personally tell you that having to look or run into OM will ruin an event that should be really special to you. It will suck you right back into the hurt... not to mention that it will break NC.

You cannot control what OM may do and therefore, it is up to you to take control of your own life to make sure that OM cannot interject himself back into it.

Moving was a huge weight lifted from my shoulders. People move all the time and your kids will adjust.
Posted By: Prisca Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/09/14 03:53 AM
Quote
Add: I heard on the radio show that Dr. Harley recommends post nuptials. Say for example if she has an affair, she loses custody, alimony and whatever you deem fit. Of course she has to agree to what goes in it. This is an awesome test of her commitment to recovery.
What show was that? Whenever I have heard Dr. Harley discuss postnuptials, he advises against them because it can be seen as punishment and hinders recovery.
Posted By: markos Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/09/14 04:32 AM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
Add: I heard on the radio show that Dr. Harley recommends post nuptials. Say for example if she has an affair, she loses custody, alimony and whatever you deem fit. Of course she has to agree to what goes in it. This is an awesome test of her commitment to recovery.
What show was that? Whenever I have heard Dr. Harley discuss postnuptials, he advises against them because it can be seen as punishment and hinders recovery.

What I've heard is that Dr. Harley doesn't advocate postnuptual agreements as a condition of recovering the marriage. i.e., BH tells WW he will only take her back if she signs a postnuptual agreement giving him the majority of their property if they divorce. A few marriages here have done this, but Dr. Harley doesn't ratify it. I've even heard him tell women to go to their lawyers and get those agreements overturned/invalidated, because it will indeed hinder marital recovery because it prevents equality between the husband and wife.

Similarly Dr. H is not in favor of prenuptual agreements. They usually put one partner at a disadvantage and they prevent a complete "becoming one" financially.

Now an adultery agreement on the other hand, is something different. That would be a prenup or postnup where the condition is if there is a divorce for adultery (proved in court), the adulterer/ess loses out financially (getting nothing or some minimal percentage). That would be an adultery in the future, of course, not an ability to go back and divorce because of past adultery before the agreement. I don't think Dr. Harley recommends that per se but when asked about it he's said that yes he thinks it could be a good idea. (Honestly I suspect he'd like to see something like it put into law.)
Posted By: Darkguy Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/09/14 07:45 AM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
Add: I heard on the radio show that Dr. Harley recommends post nuptials. Say for example if she has an affair, she loses custody, alimony and whatever you deem fit. Of course she has to agree to what goes in it. This is an awesome test of her commitment to recovery.
What show was that? Whenever I have heard Dr. Harley discuss postnuptials, he advises against them because it can be seen as punishment and hinders recovery.

What I've heard is that Dr. Harley doesn't advocate postnuptual agreements as a condition of recovering the marriage. i.e., BH tells WW he will only take her back if she signs a postnuptual agreement giving him the majority of their property if they divorce. A few marriages here have done this, but Dr. Harley doesn't ratify it. I've even heard him tell women to go to their lawyers and get those agreements overturned/invalidated, because it will indeed hinder marital recovery because it prevents equality between the husband and wife.

Similarly Dr. H is not in favor of prenuptual agreements. They usually put one partner at a disadvantage and they prevent a complete "becoming one" financially.

Now an adultery agreement on the other hand, is something different. That would be a prenup or postnup where the condition is if there is a divorce for adultery (proved in court), the adulterer/ess loses out financially (getting nothing or some minimal percentage). That would be an adultery in the future, of course, not an ability to go back and divorce because of past adultery before the agreement. I don't think Dr. Harley recommends that per se but when asked about it he's said that yes he thinks it could be a good idea. (Honestly I suspect he'd like to see something like it put into law.)

That's what I meant sorry I didn't come off clearer. He said if the reason for divorce was because of adultery. The agreement of course applies to the BS as well so one party isn't dominate over the other.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/09/14 12:44 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
Add: I heard on the radio show that Dr. Harley recommends post nuptials. Say for example if she has an affair, she loses custody, alimony and whatever you deem fit. Of course she has to agree to what goes in it. This is an awesome test of her commitment to recovery.
What show was that? Whenever I have heard Dr. Harley discuss postnuptials, he advises against them because it can be seen as punishment and hinders recovery.

I believe the adultery agreement/post up issue was discussed on blindsighted and dumbman's call...
Posted By: BlindSighted2013 Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/09/14 02:10 PM
Yep, but we have adult children, and the post nup only covers in the event of a future A. Plus there isn't much remaining in the coffers after the A, so Dr. H felt that it was fair for me to potentially get everything if we had to later D and I had to move and start over yet again.

Dr. H also pointed out that post nups must be created with a separate attorney representing each person to protect from future overturning in court.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/09/14 04:04 PM
I thought of you when I heard this show. The WW is unwilling to give up Facebook after her affair.

Radio Clip on Facebook
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/09/14 05:00 PM
Originally Posted by BlindSighted2013
Yep, but we have adult children, and the post nup only covers in the event of a future A. Plus there isn't much remaining in the coffers after the A, so Dr. H felt that it was fair for me to potentially get everything if we had to later D and I had to move and start over yet again.

Dr. H also pointed out that post nups must be created with a separate attorney representing each person to protect from future overturning in court.

Here it is.
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Posted By: Prisca Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/09/14 05:05 PM
Thank you!
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/13/14 07:23 PM
anyone know anything about borderline personality disorder? That is the clinical diagnosis my wife received today. Trying to weigh the diagnosis with my reality. Don't know what to expect for recovery now.
Posted By: markos Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/13/14 08:00 PM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
anyone know anything about borderline personality disorder? That is the clinical diagnosis my wife received today. Trying to weigh the diagnosis with my reality. Don't know what to expect for recovery now.

Cars, can you email Dr. Harley with this update? I know he has dealt with a number of personality disorders before in his clinical practice. He's pretty good at keeping the focus on the marriage rather than letting the disorders turn into a helpless situation.
Posted By: MindMonkey Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/14/14 01:25 PM
Cars,

My DW was also recently dx with borderline personality disorder and it very much contributed to her affairs. It was one of the primary conditions that led to them. She absolutely has to have it treated as a condition of recovery.

***********EDIT**************
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/15/14 07:45 PM
I emailed Dr Harley. Joyce called me this morning, asked some questions and wanted me on their show again. I was unable to participate due to a work engagement but I received an email from her stating it was brought up in the show today. I haven't had a chance to listen to the show yet, interested in seeing the good Dr's perspective.
Posted By: Darkguy Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/16/14 12:06 PM
I just heard the show. Forgive my blunt attitude but he basically said your WW's diagnosis is baloney and you need to follow the program or more affairs are in your future. I get what your going through, you love your wife. Stop protecting her, she is an adult who made the choice of an affair. She has the rare opportunity for JC and is bartering with you while your going through the worst time of your life. She lacks empathy and your enabling her by being passive and not following the program.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/16/14 01:27 PM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
anyone know anything about borderline personality disorder? That is the clinical diagnosis my wife received today. Trying to weigh the diagnosis with my reality. Don't know what to expect for recovery now.

Theres a lot of dispute in the professional medical field about BPD.
My in laws are all convinced my ww has it.
One of my in laws is a practicing psychiatrist!

But Harley says he rarely diagnosed someone as BPD.
On a show a few months ago, he discussed BPD and you can find it here:

Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight
MB Radio Link:

(second part, near end); Dr Harley addresses a caller whose wife was diagnosed with BPD. she is having an affair and move in with her boyfriend.
Dr Harley said BPD is controversial in the scientific community and states that a primary symptom is self mutilation. He said if the patient is not self
Mutilating he questions the validity of the diagnosis:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=0479#

Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/16/14 01:29 PM
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2685594&page=4

Heres a thread about personality disorders and BPD that Harley has discussed on his radio show:

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/16/14 02:53 PM
Originally Posted by TranquilDark
I just heard the show. Forgive my blunt attitude but he basically said your WW's diagnosis is baloney and you need to follow the program or more affairs are in your future. I get what your going through, you love your wife. Stop protecting her, she is an adult who made the choice of an affair. She has the rare opportunity for JC and is bartering with you while your going through the worst time of your life. She lacks empathy and your enabling her by being passive and not following the program.

hurray *like*
Posted By: BlairBluefin Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/16/14 03:48 PM
Two thumbs up, TD!
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/16/14 06:45 PM
It's interesting that this diagnosis is quickly discounted as a crutch and I must be protecting her.

I fought the diagnosis, as did she until we really researched the disorder(which is a very real, very serious mental illness). My wife was/is crushed by the diagnosis, as she thought she was normal, for the most part, in her decision making/emotional processes. This disorder means our marriage is almost assured to fail strictly because if she gets what she wants- a happy, healthy, loving relationship- she will destroy it by default. That is a big pill to swallow. Add to that it means she is truly mentally ill, not just depressed, and her world was turned upside down.

For those that think this is a crutch people use to avoid responsibility, our understanding of her condition means that our marriage problems are now completely her fault. She has accepted this as part of accepting her illness. We sat down and worked through the EN questionaire, with quite a bit of difficulty on her part, and I'm meeting all of her needs, she wasn't meeting mine but is trying to. We also finally set up EP's. Her willingness on the EP's was easy because she truly wants to save our marriage and for us to do that, she can't trust what she thinks any more because she doesn't act/react the right way(I know, neither does anyone else that cheats).

The answer to my question about where I go from here was answered through all of this- We continue down the path with SAA. Follow the program but add more work she has to do to learn to understand her emotions, learn to act/react the right way and learn self control.

I think this might be my last post on my situation for a while. We started moving today, have tons to unpack and a book to read together.

Thanks again for all of the information, advice and guidance. It has been irreplaceable.
Posted By: alis Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/16/14 06:52 PM
It's a crutch because you are allowing her to use it excuse her behaviour. She is not the only mentally ill married person in this world - it does not give us license to abuse our spouses.

Diagnosis with whatever doesn't change the fact that she isn't even willing to dump Facebook to protect you. It's insulting. Your original thread was two months ago.

Don't you find it odd that you are going to disregard even the opinion of Dr. Harley himself? You won't be getting better advice than that.

Your marriage will not survive your enabling. I wish you luck, because you will need it.


*******T/J*******

*****alis,, check your email, please or email me JustUss2@aol.com******

end T/J
Posted By: markos Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/16/14 06:55 PM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
It's interesting that this diagnosis is quickly discounted as a crutch and I must be protecting her.

I fought the diagnosis, as did she until we really researched the disorder(which is a very real, very serious mental illness).

Did you get to hear the show? Dr. Harley said this diagnosis has been dropped from the DSM Diagnostic and Statistical Manual that lists disorders.
Posted By: markos Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/16/14 06:58 PM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
Follow the program but add more work she has to do to learn to understand her emotions, learn to act/react the right way and learn self control.

Self control sounds good - Dr. Harley said there was an impulse control issue that needs to be dealt with, as well as a depression issue that needs to be dealt with.

Prisca and I have found the POJA especially helpful for learning impulse control - when you wait for your spouse's enthusiastic approval before doing anything, it requires you to have to control yourself and not just act on impulses.

As for depression - the best solution for that for a woman is a good relationship with her husband.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/16/14 08:38 PM
Sir,

When God wrote the 10 Commandments He didnt make exceptions for personality disorders.
Posted By: Darkguy Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/17/14 12:27 AM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
It's interesting that this diagnosis is quickly discounted as a crutch and I must be protecting her.

I fought the diagnosis, as did she until we really researched the disorder(which is a very real, very serious mental illness). My wife was/is crushed by the diagnosis, as she thought she was normal, for the most part, in her decision making/emotional processes. This disorder means our marriage is almost assured to fail strictly because if she gets what she wants- a happy, healthy, loving relationship- she will destroy it by default. That is a big pill to swallow. Add to that it means she is truly mentally ill, not just depressed, and her world was turned upside down.

For those that think this is a crutch people use to avoid responsibility, our understanding of her condition means that our marriage problems are now completely her fault. She has accepted this as part of accepting her illness. We sat down and worked through the EN questionaire, with quite a bit of difficulty on her part, and I'm meeting all of her needs, she wasn't meeting mine but is trying to. We also finally set up EP's. Her willingness on the EP's was easy because she truly wants to save our marriage and for us to do that, she can't trust what she thinks any more because she doesn't act/react the right way(I know, neither does anyone else that cheats).

The answer to my question about where I go from here was answered through all of this- We continue down the path with SAA. Follow the program but add more work she has to do to learn to understand her emotions, learn to act/react the right way and learn self control.

I think this might be my last post on my situation for a while. We started moving today, have tons to unpack and a book to read together.

Thanks again for all of the information, advice and guidance. It has been irreplaceable.

So if I was drunk and killed your wife in accident I should be found innocent right? Because alcoholism is a diagnosis and I wasn't responsible for my actions?! Psssshaw!
Your long drawn out explanation could of been done in two sentences. "I love my wife and I am willing to do what she wants. Even if it hurts me in the long run." She has no respect for you because you let her walk all over you! You can be assertive without being disrespectful but Plan Cars isn't about that. It's about sacrificing and using emotional reactions as a crutch to justify her affair.

She doesn't need to do the classic affair justification. You are doing it for her! You are your own marriage worst enemy and you continue to fight and delve deep into shallow water. Your wife had an affair without consulting you or your kids. She did it because she wanted to, there isn't any complex medical diagnosis behind it. Just plain old selfish. Are you practicing the POJA? What are her EPs? She still using facebook? When are you going to hop off the hamster wheel?
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/17/14 12:44 AM
If she has a legitimate personality disorder then you will have an unhappy marriage.
Dr Harley devoted an entire chapter to personality disorder in his book Buyers Renters Freeloaders.....most of the people he speaks of on the show that are married to these types are unhappy
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/17/14 01:25 AM
Have you read this?

Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/18/14 09:49 PM
I have seen the buyers, renters, and freeloaders thread and believe it holds value and is an pretty neat descriptor. The personality disorder diagnosis isn't an excuse for her choices and that's the first conversation we had. She agrees her choice to cheat and her choice to put no effort into meeting my needs are her responsibility, her conscious decisions that were wrong and she is working to meet my needs, we are following POJA and EP's now. There is no more facebook, no more opposite sex friends and a conscious daily effort to take care of me. She started reading SAA last night. There is no slack cut to her by me or by herself for her actions. If anything, there is more determination on her part to learn to have a fulfilling marriage than ever. But I'm sure I will still be told somehow it's a crutch and I'm enabling her even though the diagnosis pushed her to follow the program lined out in SAA instead of away from it.

For the record, I'm not delusional- my marriage isn't safe yet, i don't trust her. She knows I don't trust her. She knows our marriage isn't safe yet and we know her diagnosis, if correct, means that there's a 90% chance our marriage will fail without major changes on her part. Shoot, if the diagnosis is correct, every bit of the progress she's made in the last day/week/month could all be an act and tomorrow she could wake up and go out searching for another guy to hook up with. Her actions, as of now, do not support that course of action but I still take it one day at a time.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 01/18/14 10:06 PM
Can you you two do the online program?
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 02/19/14 04:24 PM
Been off for a while, working my wife into the MB program (successfully) and I wanted to update those that have followed my thread and ask a question.

Since I've last posted, the wife has read SAA and is willing/has started working the program. There is no more FB, she is accountable to me about her time, there are no secrets, good open communication and we have started working together on our ENs. We have agreed to the policy of joint agreement in writing, agreed to the EPs in writing and are following them. There is still some uneasiness in being completely honest but only because some honest thoughts and feelings on my part are still love busters due to triggers from the affair. We don't avoid them, just have to approach them carefully to keep from busting.

The attitude of my wife toward our marriage is very positive. She has become very willing to put effort into our relationship, even though she is still learning what that means, as am I.

The question I have regards the EN questionaire. When my wife filled out hers, she ranked her needs, took time to think through them and answered the questions honestly. On all of her needs, she ranked them just as I thought she would and she ranked my meeting those needs as being extremely satisfied, with almost nothing I need to improve on. Does that make any sense? I thought there would have been unmet needs or room for improvement.

Posted By: Darkguy Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 02/19/14 04:42 PM
Your wife had an affair because of poor boundaries not because of lack on needs being met.
Posted By: Prisca Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 02/19/14 05:29 PM
I would concentrate on the Lovebusters if I were you. It is possible that you meet her EN perfectly, but your Lovebusters keep draining the Lovebank.

Can y'all sign up for the online program?
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 02/19/14 05:38 PM
Can't sign up for the online program, no internet at home any more.

I will work on the lovebusters, we have already established boundaries through the ENs.

Thanks
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 02/19/14 05:46 PM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
Can't sign up for the online program, no internet at home any more.

I will work on the lovebusters, we have already established boundaries through the ENs.

Thanks

**EDIT**
Posted By: FightTheFight Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 02/19/14 05:53 PM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
The question I have regards the EN questionaire. When my wife filled out hers, she ranked her needs, took time to think through them and answered the questions honestly. On all of her needs, she ranked them just as I thought she would and she ranked my meeting those needs as being extremely satisfied, with almost nothing I need to improve on. Does that make any sense? I thought there would have been unmet needs or room for improvement.

My W did the exact same thing. There are several different possibilities why, but it would be only speculation to go into them.

Originally Posted by carsandkidz
There is still some uneasiness in being completely honest but only because some honest thoughts and feelings on my part are still love busters due to triggers from the affair.

I'd look at this item very closely. For example, saying something like "Every time I look at you I think about you and OM together" may be honest but it's violating the rule about bringing up the A.

I'd also second the suggestion about getting into the online program. Having a coach there to prod both of you along will help a lot.
Posted By: markos Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 02/19/14 05:59 PM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
Can't sign up for the online program, no internet at home any more.

You could probably still call the Marriage Builders office and see what they recommend. The online program includes phone coaching.
Posted By: Justthe3ofus Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 02/19/14 07:05 PM
First of all congratulations on getting her on the program. That is really great news. Secondly, that is terrific news that she took down Facebook. That was our biggest concern.

Are you spending 15 hours a week of undivided attention time? If you are, and that is new, then that may be one of the reasons you are scoring high on meeting her needs. It is possible that the changes you both have made have improved your relationship.I agree with tranquil dark that boundaries are always going to be and issue in an affair. And that very well could have been the case with your wife. But if I am not mistaken, you have established extraordinary precautions to ensure your safety. Good job. Keep posting so we know how your progress is going. God bless.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 02/19/14 09:00 PM
Great update. Glad you got your wife on board and got FB out of the equasion!
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 03/07/14 03:36 PM
Struggling a little bit with marriage recovery and I'm unclear on what to do at this point, so I thought I'd stop and and see what y'all think...

At this point, I guess everything is on track. We have our EP's in place, they aren't a challenge for the wife. We have both read SAA and have committed to working the program. Our POJA is in place and being followed, we are being completely honest with each other. We've filled out all the worksheets on the website and that's kind of where we're stuck.

It seems like there's a deficit in my wife for understanding/applying the principals in a way that's not self centered. She seems to be stuck in her own head, seems to believe that she's doing things in a way that's mutually beneficial but her thought process is still heavily weighted towards self instead of equal give and take. It comes across as selfish, but through our counseling sessions, I know she doesn't mean it that way. She has always been self centered in her thinking, was how she coped with a terrible home life growing up and became a habit long before we met.

Has anyone worked through changing this mindset/learned behavior with their spouse? Any pointers on how I can help her work to change this thought process?
Posted By: catwhit Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 03/07/14 03:57 PM
Cars:
Can you provide a specific example or two?
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 03/07/14 05:10 PM
Sure-

emotional needs questionaire is a great example. Getting her to fill it out was simple- She read the book, wanted to fill it out. Sitting down to discuss it is another story. The questionaire has been filled out for three weeks but we have yet to discuss it because her interest in it ended when she filled out the info.

Same is true with all of the other packets.

Same mentality prevails when we talk about what to do on date night, or simple things like picking a restaurant to go to for dinner. She wants me to pick where we go but if she's not in the mood for what I pick, we may go through 10 choices before I finally bring up the one she wanted to go to in the first place but wouldn't say.

We discuss our marriage in our counseling sessions every week and it is raw and good and full of progress for one hour. When we walk out of that office, any attempt to talk about anything in depth or deep is rebuffed because she doesn't "feel like" discussing it, even if I express my desire to talk about what's going on. Our counselor is working on showing her where her thought process is wrong, where giving in marriage can't be only when it's convenient for one party and marriage must be equal parts give and take by both partners.

Meeting emotional needs is another example. I have worked hard toward becoming an expert at meeting her emotional needs, like I'm supposed to and she agrees her needs are met and she's happy in our marriage( another confusing part of our deal, but another time) but she only wants to meet my emotional needs when it fits into what she wants to do. There is no effort that puts her in a "giving" position instead of "taking".

As I'm typing this out, it occurs to me that maybe the question I should be asking is how do I teach my wife to be both a giver and a taker, instead of just a taker. Or maybe how do I teach her that giving is as important and as rewarding as taking?
Posted By: SusieQ Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 03/07/14 06:08 PM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
We discuss our marriage in our counseling sessions every week and it is raw and good and full of progress for one hour. When we walk out of that office, any attempt to talk about anything in depth or deep is rebuffed because she doesn't "feel like" discussing it, even if I express my desire to talk about what's going on. Our counselor is working on showing her where her thought process is wrong, where giving in marriage can't be only when it's convenient for one party and marriage must be equal parts give and take by both partners.

I am not caught up on your story but typical MC is a very bad idea. If you are familiar with MB, then you know that Harley kids phone coach people separately to avoid lovebustering each other. Also typical MC will dwell on mistakes of the past, etc.

The fact that you are walking out of the office and your W doesn't want to discuss anything with you tells me those sessions are probably eroding her LB$.

How much UA time are you two getting with each other? Is it quality time?
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 03/07/14 06:29 PM
SusieQ- our marriage counselor is familiar with the MB program, and is helping us work through the program, not digging up or reliving the past. She helped push my wife to put the EPs in place, without the counselor I would still be trying to convince my wife that facebook had to go.

I don't think there are any lovebusters in or out of the sessions. Most of the time is spent discussing the wife's hang ups with learning to follow the POJA effectively. The counselor and I are both pretty careful with my wife, doesn't take much for her to start self-shaming. We are spending 15-20 hours a week good UA time and we are taking a vacation starting sunday for 8 days without the kids or any other distractions to really get some quality alone time.
Posted By: markos Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 03/07/14 06:29 PM
Talking about your relationship problems in depth all the time is a recipe for disaster! Just when you need to be making love bank deposits, you make each other miserable (withdrawals) instead.

Take her out for an enjoyable evening of dinner and dancing instead.
Posted By: markos Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 03/07/14 06:31 PM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
As I'm typing this out, it occurs to me that maybe the question I should be asking is how do I teach my wife to be both a giver and a taker, instead of just a taker. Or maybe how do I teach her that giving is as important and as rewarding as taking?

Making value judgments about how important it is is disrespectful.

Instead, complain respectfully. If it's an unmet need you have, tell her "I'd like it if you ..." Talk about your emotional needs and what you need. If it's a love buster, say "It bothers me when you ..."

Keep the problems on the front burner, but stay respectful and cheerful, and don't talk about the problems during UA time.
Posted By: Justthe3ofus Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 03/07/14 07:24 PM
Well, some of these issues diminish as feelings of love and romance become a part of the marriage. If you are not experience feelings of romantic love for each other, then you are probably not spending "undivided attention" time together for at least 15 hours a week. During this time conversations should not be about relationships, and you should be dating outside of the home environment where the stresses of daily life block the romantic bonding that should take place between the two of you.

Have you taken time off together, a vacation or at least a romantic extended weekend? If you are not doing things, but are instead spending time talking about relationship business or family business then you are not going to get a lot of traction recovering the marriage.

15 hours. Don't neglect this.

As far as negotiating issues go, it's all about POJA. Have you read He Wins, She Wins? It's a short book by Dr. Harley with terrific, practical, and easy to apply methods for solving the issues you describe.
Posted By: carsandkidz Re: how do I compete with facebook? - 03/07/14 07:51 PM
We are spending UA time, at least 15 hours a week. Date night every weekend, lunch together 2-3x a week, 2 hours a night together after the kids go down with no interruption, and no discussion of the kids or the relationship issues ever in this time. We went away for a week in december, are going away next week again.

If you ask her, everything is going well, she is happy in our marriage and we don't need to change anything else. We are close emotionally and, for her, our relationship is as close to perfect as a relationship gets.

Therein lies the problem I'm trying to work through. I'm not happy, my needs are still going unmet. I've respectfully communicated that to her, she is aware of the unmet needs, and yet has little desire to do anything to work on meeting those needs because she's already happy.
© Marriage Builders® Forums