Marriage Builders
Posted By: gucio4 Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 11/30/13 09:24 PM
To anyone willing to help,

I am at a total loss of what I can do to help keep my husband by my side. I have betrayed him without having any intentions of losing him.

We have been married for 13 years, have two beautiful children. We are both successful with our careers yet I am the one destroying our lives. I ask myself for what?? For the roller-coaster of a marriage that has always been so beautiful.

In 2009 I have gotten wrapped up with an old flame on Facebook. I have deceived my husband, he wanted to get a divorce after finding out I was communicating with this individual. I promised to change to keep our family together. I honestly cannnot see my life without my husband. He is my whole world. We made it through that end of the world, he gave me a change and here I go messing it all up....for the attention???....I joined G+ and got wrapped up in some chats last week. I hate myself. I cannot see myself living without my husband.

Somebody please help me bring him back into my life.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 11/30/13 09:42 PM
If you want to save your marriage, then STOP IT! I don't understand why you are asking us to help save your marriage when you are the one who holds that key. Why don't you stop sabotaging it?
Posted By: gucio4 Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 11/30/13 09:47 PM
I have stopped it, and yet something possesses me to look for that attention, best way I can put it.

What I need to know is how to get my husband to trust me, is that even possible? Is it possible to maintain this relationship? How do I show him that I have cut off all contact?
Posted By: Gamma Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 11/30/13 09:55 PM
annar,

I encourage you to continue to read here on MB. I believe if you do so you will slowly gain an understanding not just of your own suffering but of your children and husband.

God Bless
Gamma
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 11/30/13 09:57 PM
Originally Posted by annar
I have stopped it, and yet something possesses me to look for that attention, best way I can put it.

What I need to know is how to get my husband to trust me, is that even possible? Is it possible to maintain this relationship? How do I show him that I have cut off all contact?

Your husband should not trust you, though. It is too much trust that has enabled you to do these things. You should stay off the computer altogether unless he is there with you. You should set up your life so it is so transparent that it would be impossible to troll for men. No nights apart, complete access to each others phones, passwords, bank accounts, everything. Your marriage should be entirely affair proofed.

The next step is to create an integrated romantic marriage where you spend all of your leisure time together. Here is the checklist from Surviving an Affair:

From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.


Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

Posted By: carsandkidz Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 11/30/13 09:59 PM
sounds like he's not meeting your emotional needs. I'm with gamma on reading more on MB, maybe try the emotional needs worksheet and see if you can identify what's lacking and encourage your husband to work on it.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 11/30/13 10:06 PM
Originally Posted by carsandkidz
sounds like he's not meeting your emotional needs. I'm with gamma on reading more on MB, maybe try the emotional needs worksheet and see if you can identify what's lacking and encourage your husband to work on it.

She is trolling for action, though. Sure, some affairs do start because of unmet needs, but they ALL start because of poor boundaries with the opposite sex. In this case, she is actively trolling for action which is another story entirely.
Posted By: Gamma Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 11/30/13 10:07 PM
Annar,

The short version of why you can't stop is that you are addicted to the affair/affairs. This addiction is every bit as real as the addiction which drug addicts and alcoholics experience.

God Bless
Gamma
Posted By: Gamma Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 11/30/13 10:10 PM
Annar,

One way to stop it is to practice radical honesty, that is don't lie about anything ever, and be absolutely honest with your husband about what you have done.

If you are absolutely honest with your husband then you could not cheat on him.

God Bless
Gamma
Posted By: gucio4 Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 11/30/13 10:18 PM
Carsandkidz,

I think this is all stemming from 2009, the first mistake I have made. He was never the same since, and I don't blame him. I was the love of his life and I go off and destroy it, the one person who was my best friend.

He used to tell me how beautiful I was how I was his world, he did not say that to me since 2009. I know it's all my fault, I did this to myself.

To join a worksheet to help him be all he can be would be a slap in his face, he did all that, I took it for granted and here I am. Completely lost.
Posted By: gucio4 Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 11/30/13 10:20 PM
Gamma,

I want nothing more than to be honest. I love my husband beyond belief and here I am going back and doing this to him.

He is not going to take me back now, I don't know how to let him see how desperate I am to have him in my life.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 11/30/13 10:20 PM
Originally Posted by annar
To anyone willing to help,

I am at a total loss of what I can do to help keep my husband by my side. I have betrayed him without having any intentions of losing him.

We have been married for 13 years, have two beautiful children. We are both successful with our careers yet I am the one destroying our lives. I ask myself for what?? For the roller-coaster of a marriage that has always been so beautiful.

In 2009 I have gotten wrapped up with an old flame on Facebook. I have deceived my husband, he wanted to get a divorce after finding out I was communicating with this individual. I promised to change to keep our family together. I honestly cannnot see my life without my husband. He is my whole world. We made it through that end of the world, he gave me a change and here I go messing it all up....for the attention???....I joined G+ and got wrapped up in some chats last week. I hate myself. I cannot see myself living without my husband.

Somebody please help me bring him back into my life.
Welcome to MB, anna.

What you have written is a bit vague. Are you saying that your husband has ended your marriage because you have been chatting to men online? What was the nature of these chats? Did you send intimate pictures of yourself? Did you ever meet the men? For how long did each affair go on? Were there only ever two men? Have you ever had a physical affair?

Have you separated now? Who is living where, and who has the kids?
Posted By: Gamma Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 11/30/13 10:27 PM
Annar,

It would be helpful if you would write out a timeline of your affair or affairs and what you did to provide just compensation to your BH, betrayed husband.

God Bless
Gamma
Posted By: Justthe3ofus Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 11/30/13 10:31 PM
Have you had any long term affairs? Have all of the affairs been online and emotional? Have you hooked up with any of these guys? Any physical affairs?
Posted By: gucio4 Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 11/30/13 10:50 PM
SugarCane,

I apologize for the vagueness. Let me start from scratch. I am in so much distress right now, I cannot focus.

In 2009 I joined FB, out of curiosity I looked up my ex-boyfriend whom I dated back in HS. I feel like I initiated contact, I pursued him, but cannot pin-point why. I had a very happy marriage, my husband was good to me, we never argued, we had a wonderful intimate relationship. I couldn't ask for anything more.

I ended up meeting up with my ex. We communicated on the phone. We exchanged emails. The thrill of something new was exciting. I didn't think twice to put myslef in my husband's shoes and see how it would feel to be betrayed.

I did end up having intimate contact with my ex. I remember feeling so sick to my stomach after, I hated myself. I would look at my husband and want to cry. But I didn;t end it. I just kept going. That lasted about a month. My husband discovered one of the emails I was writing to my ex before I left for work. In some sense I was relieved. I just wanted my husband to want me back.

I never had any other intimate contacts with anybody else.

The chats began in 2012 when my brother inroduced me to Google+ to keep in touch with family. At that time I discovered that there are people from around the world that one can communicate with.

I chatted with 2 men. Never posted pics of sexual nature to them. I never met the men I chatted with.

Today, my husband discovered one of my chats that I had on my phone. I feel like this is it, I cannot save this anymore. I want nothing more than to save my marriage.

How do I convince him that I need help??
Posted By: Gamma Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 11/30/13 11:30 PM
annar,

Did you ever confess to your children and the other mans wife?

God Bless
Gamma
Posted By: gucio4 Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/01/13 12:49 AM
Gamma,

I have never been involved with a married man. The men I had chats with were single, but I guess I wouldn't know. They could be doing the same as me. I always knew that I never wanted to be involved with anyone on those chats. I cannot imagine my life without my husband, yet I keep screwing it up.

I came home from work this evening, he doesn't want to look at me. He doesn't want me to say his name. He looks right threw me. He's saying he's leaving tonight. I am not capable of handling this on my own. I feel so hopeless.

I called my friend to ask for help. She's having her brother in law call me. He is a family social worker.

I know that I hurt my husband, I know I am viewed as a horrible person, I know all of that, I just need help to have him understand how much I am sorry.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/01/13 12:53 AM
Anna, you didn't answer all my questions:

Have you separated now? Who is living where, and who has the kids?

Also:

What was in the chat that your H discovered today?

What makes you say that "this is it, I cannot save this anymore"? Has your H left you, or told you to leave?

I'm still no clearer as to what is going on today to make you say that your marriage is over.
Posted By: gucio4 Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/01/13 12:53 AM
Justthe3ofus,

I did not have any long term affairs. I only had one face to face with my old ex from high school back in 2009. That only lasted a couple months, not even. Everything else has been on-line chats. I never met these people.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/01/13 12:58 AM
Originally Posted by annar
Today, my husband discovered one of my chats that I had on my phone. I feel like this is it, I cannot save this anymore. I want nothing more than to save my marriage.

How do I convince him that I need help??

You need help with WHAT specifically? All he knows is that you REFUSE to stop having affairs. He is the one who needs the help since he is the victim of your behavior.

Who will help him?

If you intend on playing this up as some kind of syndrome or sickness, rather than a sick behavior choice, then your husband needs to separate and be protected from you. We would encourage him to leave you.

What is the social worker calling you about?
Posted By: gucio4 Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/01/13 01:00 AM
SugarCane,

We are not separated, never were. The kids were always with the both of us. My husband is an angel and put up with me. I have not treated him any less.
We work well as a team.

Today the chat contained stupid small talk. I told the guy I was divorced. I talked about my kids. The guy mentioned stuff about himself. I don't even know this guy and I'm talking to him. I am disgusted with myself. I don't even want to go on with my life anymore.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/01/13 01:08 AM
If I were you, I would go to him with a plan for complete transparency that holds you accountable. For example, hand over your phone to him and switch to a dumb phone where you can't troll for creepos. Have him password protect all the computers so you can't get on one unless he is right there with you. If you have any ipads, I would give them away to someone else.

In other words, make it impossible for you to have online affairs again. Think of every possible manner you might use and fill that hole so you CAN'T.

The reason this keeps happening is because you and your H keep relying on willpower rather than removing the means of temptation.

Another thing your husband should do is expose your affairs to your families and close friends. [including children] The more people who know, the more ppl to hold you accountable and give him support.

That is where I would start. Go to him with this plan in hand and bring him here. Tell him we can help him hold you accountable and walk him through the steps to save his marriage. We can teach him to affair proof his marriage.
Posted By: gucio4 Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/01/13 01:14 AM
MelodyLane,

I am afraid. I don't want him to leave me. I don't know what else to do. I know I'm not the victim, I know I hurt the best friend I had. I cannot survive this.
I am hating myself. I seriously don't want to live like this.

I know there is not guarantee in anything. I just want my life back.

I called my friend because I feel like I'm going to have a panic attack. I'm reaching out everywhere so I know what to do.

My husband's sister told me about this site. I am at a loss.
Posted By: gucio4 Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/01/13 01:24 AM
I approached him with your response. He pushed me away. He said he "doesn't want to me the laughing stalk" he doesn't want to participate.

Is the plan for transparency available to print?

I'm in tears. I don't know what to do now
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/01/13 01:35 AM
Originally Posted by annar
I approached him with your response. He pushed me away. He said he "doesn't want to me the laughing stalk" he doesn't want to participate.

Is the plan for transparency available to print?

I'm in tears. I don't know what to do now

Why don't you give him time to calm down and think this through? Tell him you will do what it takes to affair proof your marriage so he is never subjected to this again. And whatever you do, don't pretend like you have some kind of sickness or syndrome or even suggest you need to go to therapy. That will just make him more hopeless.

I posted the list of extraordinary precautions above and it includes several items that establish transparency. I would take that list and add to it to suit your situation.

Here is the list - but I would add things like I suggested above:


From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.


Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

Posted By: Gamma Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/01/13 02:13 AM
Annar,

Was the ex boyfriend from 2009 married?

The other point is that you set your recovery clock to zero, which means if your BH stays with you he has at least two years to recover. The good news is that if you don't cheat anymore the time will pass.

The chats were not innocent claiming to be divorced must have been a terrible blow to your BH.

God Bless
Gamma
Posted By: gucio4 Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/01/13 02:38 AM
Gamma,

No, he was not married. Never was. Did not have kids.
Recently I googled his name and found out he has passed away. Today my husband threw back at me the events from 2009. He told me to go back to him, and out of desperation I threw back at him that he's dead. And he asked me how I know and I told him that his mother contacted me....even though that's a complete lie. I never had any contact with his family. Nobody even knows of me. I was too embarrassed to tell him I googled his name. I don't even know how to stop spiraling out of control.

I know I'm not the victim here, and the way I feel right now I wish I was just to feel the punishment.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/01/13 03:23 AM
Originally Posted by annar
Gamma,

No, he was not married. Never was. Did not have kids.
Recently I googled his name and found out he has passed away. Today my husband threw back at me the events from 2009. He told me to go back to him, and out of desperation I threw back at him that he's dead. And he asked me how I know and I told him that his mother contacted me....even though that's a complete lie. I never had any contact with his family. Nobody even knows of me. I was too embarrassed to tell him I googled his name. I don't even know how to stop spiraling out of control.

I would go tell him the truth right now. You are making it worse by telling him lies. The way you stop the spiraling is to stop the spiraling. Stop lying.
Posted By: gucio4 Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/01/13 04:34 AM
MelodyLane,

Thank you for all the advice. I am struggling at this point for my husband to even look at me. The last thing he wants to do I protect our marriage. According to him, he's done.

I will do all that you recommend. Nothing else will help me.

I don't even care if the world knows what a horrible person I am. This is probably how I will be remembered.
Posted By: mrs_cen Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/01/13 04:44 AM
Anna, the first thing you need to do is stop feeling sorry for your self, you didn't just do it once, you did it twice. Your BH is shattered and you are the one that's caused it. You were selfish and thoughtless. without a care as to what it what do to your husband - I know this, because I did it to!. None of this is going to go away over night and if you truly want your marriage back, you need to do exactly what the board suggests. You need to recognize, acknowledge and accept the decisions you've made, which have lead you to the present, and focus on the future and trying to rebuild with your BS what you've taken away.
Posted By: gucio4 Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/01/13 04:55 AM
mrs_cen

I am simply scared. Simply put I am freaked out about the future, about my kids, our home, my energy to go on. I don't feel sorry for myself, I feel sorry for what I have done. I feel sick looking at my husbands eyes and seeing the pain he's going through.

I see no hope when he's looking up the process to divorce. I feel my heart sink when he tells me he wants nothing to do with protecting our marriage. He tells me that he's not going to babysit me. Is reading and following MB the answer to saving my marriage?? How will it prove to him that I want our marriage to last?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/01/13 05:15 AM
Do you have the book Surviving an Affair?

Will your BH post here?

Please listen to these clips.
What is Just Compensation?
Posted By: Gamma Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/01/13 05:23 AM
Annar,

Have you even told your BH the complete truth about the affair from 2009?

You need to sit down with your BH and undo all the lies you have told him, this includes what BH has not asked.

God Bless
Gamma
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/01/13 05:32 AM
Also do you understand what EPs are?

Here.
Extraordinary Precautions
Posted By: gucio4 Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/01/13 09:01 AM
How do I practice extraordinary precautions when my husband wants nothing to do with it?

What do I do when he says I can do whatever I want to help myself but won't save the marriage...it's too late...he doesn't want to save the marriage...there is no marriage.

How do I respond to "you can prove yourself after the divorce"?

What are the first things I should be saying when he does not want to listen to how sorry I am or my attempt at telling the truth?

I read through the extraordinary precautions, I understand what I have to do. I do not own or have not read the "surviving an affair"

How do I have my husband part take in something he wants nothing a part of?

He is telling me that he doesn't care what forum I've joined and he's said "I hope you meet someone there that will make you happy"......I am completely hopeless....please help
Posted By: gucio4 Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/01/13 09:07 AM
Gamma,

There was not complete disclosure of all events from 2009. We left it unsaid. I was so embarrassed. I am till this day.

I tried this evening to spill all. My husband said "I don't care and don't want to hear about it. Don't ever bring it up".

Me telling him that I want to fix our marriage to start fresh is all a joke to him, very understandably so.

Is him wanting a divorce before he talks to me an answer?? I can honestly say that I will not be able to survive the process.

I have no one to reach out to. I have my sister in law that's trying to keep me going on this. I see no point. I've hurt him enough.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/01/13 09:38 AM
Annar, do you accept that a man has a right to divorce his wife for adultery? No matter how sorry she is?

I suggest in all kindness that you do accept this, and very quickly too. I would communicate to your husband that you deserve to be divorced and that you won't be moody or difficult or pleading.

See, the message you are giving him right now is a bit, "me, me, me". I understand that you are in pain as a result of your choices, but he is in pain through no fault of his own. He isn't going to want to hear about your pain.

If you act as though you still have a right to the marriage, it sends the wrong message. It sends the message that you think you can do what you like consequence-free.

I'd like to see you recover your marriage and prove yourself, but you won't do that by throwing pity parties and drowning in despair. Your husband won't listen to any pity parties, he needs to see you calmly accept the consequences here.

Originally Posted by annar
I can honestly say that I will not be able to survive the process.


Of course you can. I am a betrayed spouse who survived my husband's affair with my best friend. I survived a very nasty divorce that was not of my choosing. I am not some sort of special case, either. Anyone can do this - they just need to keep going.

You do too. No more dramatics and pity parties. If you are really struggling, see your doctor about anti depressants. This is a difficult time and you will need to start getting resourceful.
Posted By: gucio4 Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/01/13 02:03 PM
Indiegirl,

Yes, I understand that he has every right to divorce me. I understand that what I have done should result in consequences I do not want.

Are there cases where a relationship re-grows after divorce??

I'm sorry that you have been betrayed. I truly am.

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/01/13 03:21 PM
Originally Posted by annar
Indiegirl,

Yes, I understand that he has every right to divorce me. I understand that what I have done should result in consequences I do not want.

Are there cases where a relationship re-grows after divorce??

I'm sorry that you have been betrayed. I truly am.


Oh no need to be sorry, I am very happy these days. But we BS's do have an insight into your husband's mindset.

Some people do remarry after divorce yes. Dr Harley has seen cases where that has happened.

It's truly up to your husband. It is his choice and no one could blame him for not wanting to do the complete uphill struggle that is recovery from an affair. On the other hand you are the only person who will ever be his children's mother.

All you can do is be the best offer on the table, the best person he could possibly be with.

All I am saying is that a lot of desperation and pity will not do your campaign to put that over any good.

It will take TIME, patience and you must give him the respect of allowing him to choose. You will have to put in a lot of time to show that changes are sustained ones. You wil need to be calm, strong and show you have a plan that can be trusted and that you are in control. You may have to change on your own, with limited contact from him.

And after all that it may never work. He may not ever want it. It may make you a better person, but it won't absolutely guarantee getting your marriage back. Are you willing to do that?
Posted By: gucio4 Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/01/13 03:50 PM
BrainHurts,

My husband will not post here.

He's withdrawn, does not look at me.

In 2009 I had a physical affair. I have since 2 on-line chat involvements. One lasted about 1 month and this recent one 1 week. I have never met these men in person.

I know this is the end of my marriage. I have selfishly pushed the love of my life away.
Posted By: gucio4 Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/01/13 04:02 PM
Indiegirl,

I am willing to do everything to make sure my husband sees me again.

I am having a very hard time thinking that he will choose another, I want nothing more than for our family to be together.

Do all spouses that end up cheating run off??? I never left, I begged for forgiveness, I don't want to leave. I only want my husband.

And I know everyone is asking why on earth I keep straying??? Why do I need to have conversation with others??? I don't know!!! I can't stand this pain.
Posted By: gucio4 Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/01/13 04:28 PM
MelodyLane,

The checklist you provided, are those the EP's?

I have deleted my google account. I never had any numbers or spoke to anyone on the phone. I deleted any potential contacts that could possibly be flaring the past. I don't have FB account and haven't had it since 2009.

What do I do when my husband is refusing to part-take in EP's? He doesn't want to hear me. Do I just follow the steps independently? Do I just write everything down so he can read later?

I know I am the betraying spouse and I know that I am most likely least liked on here, but please help me get this right.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/01/13 04:52 PM
annar, it is important to understand that he has every right to get a divorce if he chooses. I would respect that choice if I were you. If he decides he wants to recover, we can help you with that. In the meantime, I would be respectful to his desire to get out of the marriage..
Posted By: Justthe3ofus Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/01/13 06:56 PM
Annar,

You asked about remarriage after divorce. My wife and I divorced and remarried. Our marriage has never been better. But it was a long process and the circumstances were different.

You are a serial cheater, and you have deeply wounded your husband. I'm not sure its possible for you to realize how much. One has to experience to really understand it.

Your husband may decide to work with you on the marriage, but truthfully, you are a very high risk case. You are addicted to the excitement and the high of having an affair, and you are not governed by guilt or morality. You feel these things, but they don't play a role in stopping you from infidelity. That is why everyone here is saying the ONLY thing that will affair proof your marriage are extraordinary precautions, the ones listed by ML.

Right now your husband is hurt and disgusted with you. He has no desire to "babysit" you because you have hurt him and betrayed him multiple times. But if after his emotions settle and decides to give your marriage a chance, he will have to participate in the "babysitting." These things are necessary to affair proof your marriage, even if you are in a healthy, happy marriage with no history of infidelity.

You need to watch this video:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6806_inf.html

You also need to read all the content in the "Start Here First" link: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2695379#Post2695379

Finally, read Dr. Harley's book, Surviving an Affair, and ask your husband if he will read it with you.

By the way, the lies and trickle truthing you have done only deepen the wounds. Trust me when I say that the lies hurt as much as the affair itself, because they exacerbate the betrayal. You should have told him the truth that you looked up your ex boyfriend. Jeez.

Give your husband time to process this and make his decision. In the meantime, get to reading the sources I've given you. Regardless of the outcome, you have a lot to learn and this is where your education starts.

Posted By: gucio4 Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/01/13 09:59 PM
Justthe3ofus,

Thank you for your input. Your first sentence has given me a tiny light of hope. Although I know the light is so distant, I may never reach it.

If what I am feeling at the moment doesn't come close to what my husband is feeling, I see no point of living.

I have watched the video you posted. It was probably the worst 30 minutes of my life. I cried out of anger at myself for what I have created. I know you think I'm a serial cheater, but to be honest, I don' want anything to do with it. I don't want that label.

I will be changing my phone number tomorrow to avoid potential flares. I have deleted everything else that was listed in the video to avoid contact with the OP. I was not romantically involved, I did however, enjoy the conversation, something I should have been doing with my husband.

I will go on to reading your other recommendations. Please know that as horrible of a person as I may sound, I am doing everything I can to earn my husband's love and trust.

Thank you for your help.
Posted By: gucio4 Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/01/13 10:19 PM
What are your thoughts on bringing up our past experiences that we shared with happiness?? Does it bring more pain to my husband to remind him of what we had and how wonderful our life was together? I don't want to push him away even further at this point and I don't want to make him feel as though he is at fault. I do, however, want him to know that I want our relationship back to how it used to be.

What are some ways I should be talking to him? Should I not talk at all?? Please help me act the right way around him at this moment.
Posted By: kerala Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/01/13 10:35 PM
I would not talk to him about the relationship or affairs at all right now. It only comes across as being v selfish and self-absorbed.

Let him initiate things.

In the meantime, REMAIN CALM. Do your best to make the home environment pleasant and low-key. If he doesn't want to engage with you, do NOT hassle him. Let him be.
Posted By: living_well Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/01/13 10:37 PM
Originally Posted by annar
What are some ways I should be talking to him? Should I not talk at all?? Please help me act the right way around him at this moment.


When I discovered my XH's misdeeds, I wanted most of all for him to tell me that he loved me and was deeply ashamed. I wanted him to say that he would divorce me giving me everything in the hope that one day I would consider rebuilding the relationship.

Instead he fought me all the way. The divorce took 6 years. Don't make that mistake.
Posted By: gucio4 Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/01/13 10:51 PM
kerala,

Thank you. I did not bring up any affairs at all. I have been cooking and cleaning and staying out of the way.

The let him be part is killing me. I am really scared.
Posted By: gucio4 Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/01/13 10:55 PM
living_well,

I have never stopped telling my husband how much I love him even though he has not responded to me the same way for years. I am deeply ashamed and disgusted with myself. I know there is a price to pay.

I have told him that I will do whatever his wishes are, even if it means divorce. I want to be able to rebuild our relationship whether it is now or after the decision he makes.
Posted By: Justthe3ofus Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/02/13 12:32 AM
Originally Posted by annar
living_well,
I love him even though he has not responded to me the same way for years. I am deeply ashamed and disgusted with myself. I know there is a price to pay.

Affairs often happen because a spouses needs are not being met. That is the premise of Dr. Harley's book His Needs, Her Needs: Affair Proofing Your Marriage.

It sound like other men were feeding your love bank in areas your husband was not. You cannot let that ever happen again, but he must also take steps that he is meeting your emotional needs for conversation, affection, and admiration if he wants your marriage to work out. If he learns to do this, you will be less inclined to look for them elsewhere.

You both need to be educated. Whether or not he decides is up to him. But you can do your part by learning Dr. Harley's concepts for a successful and happy marriage.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/02/13 12:41 AM
I just want to make it clear that affairs never happen unless one's lovebank is open to others. Affairs happen because of poor boundaries. We have many, many examples of affairs that occurred in marriages where the BS was doing a good job of meeting her WS' needs. Mine is one such example. My husband gave me high ratings in EVERY area. The reason he had an affair: his lovebank was open to any and all.

This is why Dr Harley recommends the book Surviving an Affair for folks who have had affairs and NOT HNHN, because he makes it VERY CLEAR that affairs are due to poor boundaries on the part of the WS. In HNHN, he writes to those who have NOT HAD an affair yet and tries to scare spouses into meeting each others needs so they won't be tempted to have an affair.

So while unmet needs may make an affair more TEMPTING, the CAUSE of an affair is poor boundaries.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/02/13 12:46 AM
Originally Posted by Melodylane on 10/04/07
Hi Dr. Harley, there is some confusion about your comment on pg 75 of Surviving an Affair and I wondered if you could clarify for my understanding:


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pg 75

How could I expect Jon to avoid burning his bridges after Sue had behaved so thoughtlessly? I offered him four reasons to try a plan that would give his marriage a chance to recover.

1. JOHN WAS PARTLY RESPOSIBLE FOR SUE'S AFFAIR. John knew, deep down inside, that his career choices had a great deal to do with Sue's affair. His work schedule prevented him from meeting her emotional needs, and it made her vulnerable to Greg's attention.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



However, we have been commonly taught, and have heard you mention on the radio show that the WS is always responsible for the affair, but often both the BS and WS are responsible for the state of the marriage that led to the affair? Is it possible for the BS for be responsible for the affair, a choice she/he never made?

Could you please clarify for our understanding? Thanks!


Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
MelodyLane: Let me add something to what I have already written to you. I hope I'm not being too redundant.

You will hear Joyce and I repeat, "there are reasons but no excuses." One of the reasons for an affair is that emotional needs are not being adequately met in marriage, which makes an affair that meets those needs more tempting. But the same thing can be said of some who rob banks. They may be out of work, need money to pay the rent, ask for a loan but are refused by the bank, which makes robbing it more tempting. One reason for the robbery is that the bank refused the loan, but it wasn't the bank's fault that it was robbed. On hindsight, a bank might have helped the robber get the help he needed through social services, but the bank is under no obligation to do so, even though they advertise that it is a "caring bank."

An affair is different from robbing banks in that a couple have promised to be more caring than banks. But the principle is the same. The lack of care by one spouse does not excuse harmful behavior by the other spouse. Even when one spouse absolutely refuses to be affectionate, or to make love, or to talk intimately, or to join in recreational activities with the other spouse, it gives them no right to have those needs met by someone else of the opposite sex in an affair. They have the right to separate until the other spouse meets those needs, or even divorce when it becomes obvious that there will be absolutely no cooperation (there are many who strongly disagree with me on that point). But an affair is so cruel and so painful that nothing any one spouse does (including having an affair themselves) can justify the suffering that an affair causes.

Making a disgraceful act more tempting by someone is no excuse for that person committing the disgraceful act. Besides, in most marriages, there are times when emotional needs are not being met for reasons beyond anyone's control. That's why I recommend extraordinary precautions to help spouses avoid an affair. They are to not allow anyone of the opposite sex to meet their need for affection, or intimate conversation, or recreational companionship, or sexual fulfillment. When those needs are met, they deposit so many love units that you are likely to fall in love with that person, and make you hurt your spouse in the worst way possible. I hope that explanation helps.

Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1939731#Post1939731
Posted By: Justthe3ofus Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/02/13 02:05 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
I just want to make it clear that affairs never happen unless one's lovebank is open to others. Affairs happen because of poor boundaries. We have many, many examples of affairs that occurred in marriages where the BS was doing a good job of meeting her WS' needs. Mine is one such example. My husband gave me high ratings in EVERY area. The reason he had an affair: his lovebank was open to any and all.

This is why Dr Harley recommends the book Surviving an Affair for folks who have had affairs and NOT HNHN, because he makes it VERY CLEAR that affairs are due to poor boundaries on the part of the WS. In HNHN, he writes to those who have NOT HAD an affair yet and tries to scare spouses into meeting each others needs so they won't be tempted to have an affair.

So while unmet needs may make an affair more TEMPTING, the CAUSE of an affair is poor boundaries.

My recommendation was for Annar to read Surviving an Affair, not HNHN. However, the underlying premise of HNHN's is that when needs are not being met, affairs happen. Annar wrote something that indicates that her husband has not met her needs. Annar needs to be aware she needs to work with her husband so that they can learn what each other's needs are, and meet them. Of course, that is a step to be taken down the road. First they must recover and following the plan outlined by Dr. Harley in Surviving an Affair.

Certainly Annar needs to put up barriers around men. Historically, she has not only let them down, she has opened the draw bridge to let the barbarians within the city walls. That lack of self control is a big concern moving forward.

If her husband were to agree to try and work with her to recover their marriage, Annar would have to put in place all extraordinary precautions, starting with no opposite sex friendships or time spent alone with the opposite sex, and she and her husband would have to learn to better meet each other's needs.

Oh, and the computer has to go.
Posted By: V_planifolia Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/02/13 02:16 AM
annar,

You are getting great advice already. I will emphasize a few things, having been the adulterous spouse in my marriage.

*Actions, actions, actions. You can bemoan your choices and wallow all you like - believe me, I understand - but all that broadcasts is your continued self-centeredness. It is your ACTIONS that will speak the most. At a minimum that requires you to be humble, mature, and selfless in how you move forward.

*Work, work, work. Stop flailing about in your own emotional turmoil, and stop expecting everyone here to do the work for you. If you are to have any chance of redeeming yourself and hopefully restoring your marriage, YOU have to be prepared to work harder - harder than you have worked for anything else - and YOU have to be in it for the long haul. No relying on somebody else to carry the load for your mistakes. At a minimum that requires you to read all of the Basic Concepts (here: Basic Concepts ) and start THINKING and PLANNING how you are going to climb out of the bed you have made for yourself.

I do not mean to be overly harsh. However, the reality of our actions is unavoidable. The past is done - it's up to you to determine how you proceed from here.
Posted By: LongWayFromHome Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/02/13 02:23 AM
Originally Posted by Justthe3ofus
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
I just want to make it clear that affairs never happen unless one's lovebank is open to others. Affairs happen because of poor boundaries. We have many, many examples of affairs that occurred in marriages where the BS was doing a good job of meeting her WS' needs. Mine is one such example. My husband gave me high ratings in EVERY area. The reason he had an affair: his lovebank was open to any and all.

This is why Dr Harley recommends the book Surviving an Affair for folks who have had affairs and NOT HNHN, because he makes it VERY CLEAR that affairs are due to poor boundaries on the part of the WS. In HNHN, he writes to those who have NOT HAD an affair yet and tries to scare spouses into meeting each others needs so they won't be tempted to have an affair.

So while unmet needs may make an affair more TEMPTING, the CAUSE of an affair is poor boundaries.

My recommendation was for Annar to read Surviving an Affair, not HNHN. However, the underlying premise of HNHN's is that when needs are not being met, affairs happen. Annar wrote something that indicates that her husband has not met her needs. Annar needs to be aware she needs to work with her husband so that they can learn what each other's needs are, and meet them. Of course, that is a step to be taken down the road. First they must recover and following the plan outlined by Dr. Harley in Surviving an Affair.

Certainly Annar needs to put up barriers around men. Historically, she has not only let them down, she has opened the draw bridge to let the barbarians within the city walls. That lack of self control is a big concern moving forward.

If her husband were to agree to try and work with her to recover their marriage, Annar would have to put in place all extraordinary precautions, starting with no opposite sex friendships or time spent alone with the opposite sex, and she and her husband would have to learn to better meet each other's needs.

A marriage with unmet ENs creates a situation that can be tempting for an affair. But affairs do not happen in marriages, any marriage, in which the spouses have good boundaries. Just want to make sure this is understood by folks who are reading here. Spouses need to create a lifestyle that makes an affair impossible, or just about impossible.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/02/13 02:43 AM
Originally Posted by Justthe3ofus
[My recommendation was for Annar to read Surviving an Affair, not HNHN. However, the underlying premise of HNHN's is that when needs are not being met, affairs happen. Annar wrote something that indicates that her husband has not met her needs.

Yes, I understand that is the premise of HNHN, which is WHY Dr Harley does not recommend that book to waywards. They might wrongly come away with the impression that unmet needs were the CAUSE of the affair, when it was actually poor boundaries. Dr Harley makes it very clear to waywards that the affair would have never happened if they had appropriate boundaries. I try to be very careful in my verbiage to waywards, especially, because they are notorious for blaming their affair on their spouse. BH's have a tendency to want to do this too. When that happens, the WS loses focus on her poor boundaries and the problem does not get solved.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/02/13 09:09 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
I just want to make it clear that affairs never happen unless one's lovebank is open to others. Affairs happen because of poor boundaries. We have many, many examples of affairs that occurred in marriages where the BS was doing a good job of meeting her WS' needs. Mine is one such example. My husband gave me high ratings in EVERY area. The reason he had an affair: his lovebank was open to any and all.

This is why Dr Harley recommends the book Surviving an Affair for folks who have had affairs and NOT HNHN, because he makes it VERY CLEAR that affairs are due to poor boundaries on the part of the WS. In HNHN, he writes to those who have NOT HAD an affair yet and tries to scare spouses into meeting each others needs so they won't be tempted to have an affair.

So while unmet needs may make an affair more TEMPTING, the CAUSE of an affair is poor boundaries.
Exactly.

This is exactly why the Harleys will say, on the radio show, "it is our job to keep our love banks closed to the wrong individuals making LB deposits".
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/02/13 10:52 AM
Originally Posted by Justthe3ofus
Affairs often happen because a spouses needs are not being met. That is the premise of Dr. Harley's book His Needs, Her Needs: Affair Proofing Your Marriage.

It sound like other men were feeding your love bank in areas your husband was not. You cannot let that ever happen again, but he must also take steps that he is meeting your emotional needs for conversation, affection, and admiration if he wants your marriage to work out. If he learns to do this, you will be less inclined to look for them elsewhere.
This is where you brought up HNHN and made it sound like a recommendation for her to read it. It is also where you laid the blamed for her repeated affairs at her H's door. The emphasis of this post was entirely that her H was to blame for her affairs, by not meeting her emotional needs. That is a staggering level of blame shifting.
Posted By: Justthe3ofus Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/02/13 02:20 PM
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by Justthe3ofus
Affairs often happen because a spouses needs are not being met. That is the premise of Dr. Harley's book His Needs, Her Needs: Affair Proofing Your Marriage.

It sound like other men were feeding your love bank in areas your husband was not. You cannot let that ever happen again, but he must also take steps that he is meeting your emotional needs for conversation, affection, and admiration if he wants your marriage to work out. If he learns to do this, you will be less inclined to look for them elsewhere.
This is where you brought up HNHN and made it sound like a recommendation for her to read it. It is also where you laid the blamed for her repeated affairs at her H's door. The emphasis of this post was entirely that her H was to blame for her affairs, by not meeting her emotional needs. That is a staggering level of blame shifting.

Staggering amount of blame shifting? I guess you missed the words: "Certainly Annar needs to put up barriers around men. Historically, she has not only let them down, she has opened the draw bridge to let the barbarians within the city walls. That lack of self control is a big concern moving forward. "

and

"You are a serial cheater, and you have deeply wounded your husband. I'm not sure its possible for you to realize how much. One has to experience to really understand it...Your husband may decide to work with you on the marriage, but truthfully, you are a very high risk case. You are addicted to the excitement and the high of having an affair, and you are not governed by guilt or morality. You feel these things, but they don't play a role in stopping you from infidelity. That is why everyone here is saying the ONLY thing that will affair proof your marriage are extraordinary precautions, the ones listed by ML."

You are cherry picking. I was very clear and adamant in EVERY post I sent to Annar that SHE is to blame for her choice to have an affair. In no way have I shifted the blame to her husband. Sue left John in SAA because he wasn't meeting her needs. This did not excuse Sue's horrendous choices, but John learned from this, as Annar's husband has to learn. Both sides have work to do. Annar must stop conversing with men and put up high barriers, and it sounds like her husband needs to learn to meet her needs, though annar has only made one hint that they aren't being met. Two things can be equally true. These ideas are not mutually exclusive, and they don't take Annar off the hook.



Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/02/13 02:27 PM
Originally Posted by Justthe3ofus
[
Staggering amount of blame shifting? I guess you missed the words: "Certainly Annar needs to put up barriers around men. Historically, she has not only let them down, she has opened the draw bridge to let the barbarians within the city walls. That lack of self control is a big concern moving forward. "

Justthe3ofus, we are responding to your post that DID place the blame on her husband when you said:
Quote
Affairs often happen because a spouses needs are not being met. That is the premise of Dr. Harley's book His Needs, Her Needs: Affair Proofing Your Marriage.

It sound like other men were feeding your love bank in areas your husband was not.

Maybe it wasn't your intent to blame her husband, but I know from long experience that a wayward will take and run with a statement like that because it does sound like you are blaming her husband. It is one of the reasons Dr Harley DOES NOT recommend HNHN to waywards. I accept and believe you when you say that was not your intent, but it did come across that way.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/02/13 02:36 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Also do you understand what EPs are?

Here.
Extraordinary Precautions
Have you written and given your BH your list of EPs?
Posted By: gucio4 Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/02/13 06:21 PM
BrainHurts,

Today I spoke to my husband and told him I am taking precautions to protect our marriage and avoid any further failures on my part. I told him I have deleted everything off my phone. I went to iTunes and deleted all apps there too. I will be changing my phone number today. Once again, I told him about MB and my goal to follow recommendations to rebuild. I had asked him for one thing, and that is to change the iTunes password on our account so I have no access.

Obviously, my husband told me not to even try to rebuild our marriage as it is too late. I am devastated. I understand that this is what I have caused and it is his decision. I don't want a divorce, I really want my family together.

Thank you for your continued guidance.
Posted By: gucio4 Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/02/13 06:28 PM
MelodyLane,

I completely agree with you. At one point in my life I did put the blame on my husband not realizing what kind of psychological damage I was creating. The wounds became deeper than I would have ever imagined possible.

I now understand and know for sure my husband had nothing to do with my wayward ways. I blame myself daily for the choices I have made. My husband is a wonderful man, one I cannot lose in my life. I failed to see the person he creates in me. We are a good team and I keep messing up.

I have ordered the "Surviving an Affair" book yesterday. I had asked my husband to allow me to part-take in discussions on here to help me find the right way to fix myself. I want nothing more than to be a better person for him....of course, only if he chooses to hold on to me.
Posted By: gucio4 Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/02/13 06:37 PM
Originally Posted by Justthe3ofus
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
I just want to make it clear that affairs never happen unless one's lovebank is open to others. Affairs happen because of poor boundaries. We have many, many examples of affairs that occurred in marriages where the BS was doing a good job of meeting her WS' needs. Mine is one such example. My husband gave me high ratings in EVERY area. The reason he had an affair: his lovebank was open to any and all.

This is why Dr Harley recommends the book Surviving an Affair for folks who have had affairs and NOT HNHN, because he makes it VERY CLEAR that affairs are due to poor boundaries on the part of the WS. In HNHN, he writes to those who have NOT HAD an affair yet and tries to scare spouses into meeting each others needs so they won't be tempted to have an affair.

So while unmet needs may make an affair more TEMPTING, the CAUSE of an affair is poor boundaries.

My recommendation was for Annar to read Surviving an Affair, not HNHN. However, the underlying premise of HNHN's is that when needs are not being met, affairs happen. Annar wrote something that indicates that her husband has not met her needs. Annar needs to be aware she needs to work with her husband so that they can learn what each other's needs are, and meet them. Of course, that is a step to be taken down the road. First they must recover and following the plan outlined by Dr. Harley in Surviving an Affair.

Certainly Annar needs to put up barriers around men. Historically, she has not only let them down, she has opened the draw bridge to let the barbarians within the city walls. That lack of self control is a big concern moving forward.

[color:#FFFF66]If her husband were to agree to try and work with her to recover their marriage, Annar would have to put in place all extraordinary precautions, starting with no opposite sex friendships or time spent alone with the opposite sex, and she and her husband would have to learn to better meet each other's needs.

Oh, and the computer has to go.
[/color]

Justthe3ofus,

I don't have male friends, never did. I work in a predominantly female environment. I have never been involved or wrapped myself up with anyone close to me. You are right, I have to say that the computer and world full of technology allowed to ruin my marriage. I actively sought out conversation but what I find myself doing most is looking for the acknowledgement of success from strangers, even though I have the world under my nose with my husband. I desperately want to break this cycle. I am taking whatever EP I can at this time.

Do you think one of us has to leave the house to rebuild the marriage? Can we work through this under the same roof. I don't want him to leave. He has moved out of our bedroom.
Posted By: gucio4 Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/02/13 06:47 PM
MelodyLane,

I ordered both Lovebank book and Surviving the Affair. While I wait for their arrival, what other boundaries do you recommend that I should be putting in place immediately?

I have deleted my google account, I deleted all apps associated with it, I had asked my husband to change the iTunes password to prevent me from re-installing the apps on my phone. I will be changing my phone number today.

I don't have male friends, I don't spend any time with males alone. At work I work with all females. During my days off I am at home.
Posted By: gucio4 Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/02/13 06:56 PM
V_planifolia,

Thank you for your input. I agree completely with what you have said. I want my actions to prove to my husband that he is all I want in my life. Yes, this is probably selfish because everything I have tried in the past has only led me to more failures.

So this is why I am here, I seek advice from those who have been betrayed who can tell me how my husband thinks at the time of his worst pain. I want to take steps I have not taken before to end his pain once and for all and to be a good wife to a man who deserves nothing less. I don't want to make the same mistakes, I'm tired of living my life watching my husband suffer. I can only hope that he believes in saving our marriage just as much as I do.
Posted By: Justthe3ofus Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/02/13 06:59 PM
Annar,

re: "Do you think one of us has to leave the house to rebuild the marriage? Can we work through this under the same roof. I don't want him to leave. He has moved out of our bedroom."

Any hope you have is for your husband to see a change in you and for that change to become permanent, whether your are under the same roof or separated. It will take a lot of time for you to earn his trust (if you are able to), and you will have to be willing to accept that he doesn't trust you and be open to him checking your every move and your online/computer activities. Actually, Dr. Harley doesn't recommend spouses having blind trust for each other. Open trust is fertile ground for an affair.

Its good that you ordered Surviving an Affair. Follow the plan laid out in it carefully. If your husband changes his mind and decides to work with you on recovery, read the book together. It will be a tremendous help.

If he doesn't agree, still read the book and do your part to reform and follow Dr. Harley's principles regardless. You won't be sorry.
Posted By: gucio4 Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/02/13 07:05 PM
Annar must stop conversing with men and put up high barriers, and it sounds like her husband needs to learn to meet her needs, though annar has only made one hint that they aren't being met. Two things can be equally true. These ideas are not mutually exclusive, and they don't take Annar off the hook.



Justthe3ofus,

I take complete accountability for my actions. I have made the mistake of blaming my husband for my affair in the past. I don't ever want him to feel that my choices are his fault. I have expressed this to him today. He still thinks we should get divorced so that I "can continue getting the attention you need" I want to fix me and my marriage, I don't want a divorce. But as many of you have already mentioned, it is not up to me.
Posted By: Gamma Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/02/13 07:11 PM
Annar,

Did you get tested for STDs after you physical affair?

God Bless
Gamma
Posted By: gucio4 Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/02/13 07:26 PM
Gamma,

re: Did you get tested for STDs after you physical affair?

I had a physical affair in 2009. I have been repeatedly tested since and never tested positive for anything. Thank you for the concern.

Posted By: gucio4 Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/02/13 10:04 PM
After reviewing the Basic Concepts, I have a question regarding the Emotional Needs Questionnaire. Would this be an appropriate time to ask my BH to fill one out? I suspect he will refuse to participate. Do I fill one out and leave for him to review? Without him becoming familiar when the Basic Concepts, am I being too hopeful in attempting to rebuild his trust in me?
Posted By: gucio4 Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/02/13 11:16 PM
I was listening to MB Radio tonight, the topic of 15 hours/week of undivided attention to each other was brought up. In my situation, where I am desperately attempting to keep my husband by my side after my betrayal, is this something that should be attempted now? Should I not focus on anything else but setting up boundaries and completing all EP's? I feel like I want to try everything, but not overwhelm my BH. Do I approach this aggressively or be cautious? How do I know he's recognizing all that I'm doing?
Posted By: Justthe3ofus Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/02/13 11:49 PM
Annar,

All couples should spend ample undivided attention time together.But it is especially important to strictly meet the minimum requirement of 15 hours when in recovery. You are not in recovery yet.

re: "I feel like I want to try everything, but not overwhelm my BH. Do I approach this aggressively or be cautious? How do I know he's recognizing all that I'm doing?"

The only thing he can recognize right now is that you have betrayed him multiple times. He is very angry right now, and doesn't want to have to experience this pain, humiliation, and anger again. Having said that, your actions over a sustained block of time will be an indication that you have changed. A days worth of reading ain't gonna convince him. Capiche?

I suggest you write him a love letter. Express how much you love him, how sorry you are, how wrong you were to hurt him, and that you are committed to changes that will affair proof your marriage and make the two of you fall in love and stay in love.
Share some of the things you have learned and invite him to join you in learning these new ideas.

Before sending him the letter post it here so we can give you some suggestions for revision.

In the meantime, try and calm yourself. And as a priest said to me once, "Be humble." Let him see in you a genuinely remorseful, repentant, and humble person.

Remember: "Your actions speak so loudly, I can't hear a word you're saying."

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/03/13 12:19 PM
Annar, how are you today? I ask because I know how difficult this must be for you.

Please do give up all this talk of recovery - you've offered it, leave it at that. It simply isn't your call and will be highly irritating to your husband. After such a lengthy false recovery he will be in no mood to talk about any of this. He doesn't want it. He doesn't want 15 hours UA time. He doesn't want to fill out questionnaires.

He is in great pain and is living minute by minute. You need to respond to what he wants and not talk about what you want.

If I were you I would stop talking entirely about what you want and how you feel and start listening to him instead.

Originally Posted by Justthe3ofus
Sue left John in SAA because he wasn't meeting her needs.


No she left for her affair. She never left to tackle his lack of needs meeting; that would have been fine and would have solved the problem. A problem entirely unrelated to the decision to have an A. She also never gave up the needs Jon did meet. She chose to have two men meet her needs.

Besides which, though Jon refused to meet some needs in SAA, none of that applies in this case. Annar's H stopped meeting needs following the first A as a result of depression and blameshifting regarding his needs meeting ability. The last thing needed now is any more talk of how he needs to meet Annar's needs. That is irrelevant to the problem at hand.


Originally Posted by annar
He still thinks we should get divorced so that I "can continue getting the attention you need"

I see a grain of hope in this sentence. He expects you to have poor boundaries and date a lot and surf the net while separated. He thinks that you cannot have high boundaries on your own without anyone meeting your needs.

Of course, you can if you chose to. I was separated or a year and never let any man meet my needs in that time period. I gained a lot of respect for refusing to date while still married. We can give you guidance on how to do that here if you choose to.

This is something you could chose to demonstrate to him over time. He may see that and may then respond to you as someone more in control.

It is something that would be good for you in any case. If you date any of these people you are conversing with it would be a personal disaster for you. They are unlikely to have much to offer.

High boundaries would keep you safe from bad choices and would also demonstrate something trustworthy for your H to see. Then the choice would be his.
Posted By: gucio4 Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/03/13 06:51 PM
Thank you Indiegirl and Justthe3ofus.

I am mentally and physically exhausted today. Every part of my body aches. I have not eaten or slept for the last 3 days. I know this doesn't compare to what my husband's feeling.

We had a long discussion last night, lots of tears. I have to accept his choice to move forward with divorce. I will write him the letter Justthe3ofus suggested. I have no other options.

The words keep replaying in my head from last night when my husband said "I need time to stop hating you....I need time to stop hating myself" those words right there broke me just as I broke my husband.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/03/13 07:17 PM
I'm sorry Annar.

If you do take up Jt3oU's suggestion, perhaps also mention you accept his need to do whatever he has to do for himself. I would also inform him that even if you separate you intend to shun opposite sex friendships and contact/trolling of all kinds out of respect for your still-binding vows. I'd tell him this is not for him, but for you, as you feel the need to change for your own sake.

This takes away any pressure on him to do what you want, before you make the changes. First make the changes without any expectations on him.
Posted By: ItCanGetBetter Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/04/13 01:42 PM
As a way of demonstrating acceptance of his right to choose, and acceptance of your responsibility, I would suggest that you offer to be the one who moves.

This would apply whether it is moving to the spare bedroom or moving to another residence.

Posted By: gucio4 Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/04/13 10:08 PM
ItCanGetBetter,

How come moving out seems like giving up on my part? Why do I feel that running off is an indication of continued interest in another party, which, by all means I have none.

I know the choice is his. I know I'm in the wrong, but in my eyes, a person not willing to work through a disaster is only taking the easy way out. Moving out is an easy way out, on my part.

Posted By: gucio4 Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/04/13 10:52 PM
I'm not gonna leave, I'm not a coward. I love love my husband. I got wrapped up in conversation for 1 week, never spoke to the person, never seen the person, never did anything with the person. I have a hard time jumping to divorce for that. I know I have done wrong, I shouldn't be socializing, but for Christ's sake, I haven't done anything like what I'm reading other people doing.
I'm really getting discouraged.
Posted By: Gamma Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/05/13 12:39 AM
Annar,

I don't think it's so much what you did now, but that as a couple you never recovered from 2009, and that from 2009 til now you have continued to lie by omission. Deep down your BH knew it which is why he never treated you the same so this latest small lie was just a trigger on a larger powder keg.

It's said that in infidelity the lies hurt worse than the sex.

Why did you tell the person you were chatting with that you were divorced?

God Bless
Gamma
Posted By: gucio4 Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/05/13 02:13 AM
Gamma,

Re: Why did you tell the person you were chatting with that you were divorced?

To be honest, I don't know why I just wasn't honest with myself and with the other person. Who in the right mind would want to talk to a married woman in the first place. Trying to answer your question makes me realize how horrible my actions have been. There was really no point in "pretending" to be divorced.
Posted By: ItCanGetBetter Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/05/13 08:51 AM
Originally Posted by annar
ItCanGetBetter,

How come moving out seems like giving up on my part? Why do I feel that running off is an indication of continued interest in another party, which, by all means I have none.

I know the choice is his. I know I'm in the wrong, but in my eyes, a person not willing to work through a disaster is only taking the easy way out. Moving out is an easy way out, on my part.


I hope you ARE able to stay. The point of making the offer is to validate his right to choose.
Posted By: happyheart Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/05/13 09:38 AM
There was absolutely a point in saying you were divorced. You knew that the chances of being complimented and getting attention are slim when you are "taken". Oh, I know that it is like a turn-down when you tell an interested man, who is being extra nice to you that you are married. You might as well say: quit talking to me.

But that is just the point. You have to stay away from situations where people come on to you. That is why people wear wedding rings to signal their inavailability and why you should keep away from situations where you might be tempted.

If you crave for admiration and attention, you have to be honest with yourself. To say you do not know why you told him you were married is not credible. You did not tell him because it did not fit your intentions.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/05/13 09:55 AM
Originally Posted by annar
To be honest, I don't know why I just wasn't honest with myself and with the other person. Who in the right mind would want to talk to a married woman in the first place. Trying to answer your question makes me realize how horrible my actions have been. There was really no point in "pretending" to be divorced.


In the bubble of secrecy, pretty much anything is possible. We are all capable of a lot of crazy stuff in that bubble. That's why radical honesty is so important. It may be worth offering your BH a polygraph if you haven't already. The lies and secrecy do hurt worse than the sex, or the seeking, I think most BSs agree with that.

Originally Posted by annar
I got wrapped up in conversation for 1 week, never spoke to the person, never seen the person, never did anything with the person.


I would really try to tweak your perspective a bit here. You would need to have been betrayed yourself to understand this. To the uninitiated, it is not an affair unless something physical has been 'done'. If you have been betrayed however, you know that it really starts the first time your spouse tells you a lie or hides something so they can pursue attention from somebody else. That is a very unsettling feeling. Kind of like being in the house with a stranger who is willing to hurt you.

I never really cared about what WH and OW did together physically as much as I cared about the lies. The flashbacks/imaginings of their physical acts were bad, but short lived. It was the lying that haunted me. For months afterward I was still unravelling old conversations in my mind, looking for what had been true and what had been false.

I was burgled shortly after my betrayal and having strangers in my home was far, far less traumatic than realising I was married to a stranger who had lied to me in my home.

It is not impossible to come back from, or recover from though. either personally or as a couple.

Originally Posted by annar
I'm really getting discouraged.


Discouraged about what?

About the marriage prospects? You don't need to be encouraged there. It isn't your call. But you can control your behaviour, your actions and decide who you want to be from now on. That is the most likely thing to appeal to your BH, but it's also your best shot at happiness no matter what he decides. Accept the things you cannot change, change the things you cannot accept.

Posted By: Justthe3ofus Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/05/13 02:35 PM
When you told the guy online that you were divorced, you might as well told your husband that he is dead, because that's how he felt when he found out. He was dead to you in his eyes.

Posted By: Gamma Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/05/13 06:22 PM
Annar,

There is another side to this, and that is that by leaving your marriage in a bad state since 2009 you left yourself in need of love and approval. This created an unmet need.

This is not uncommon as most marriages with affairs are left crippled by the affair and without honesty about the affair the couple will be unable to meet each others needs.

The unmet need alone does not create an affair however, as it was your poor boundaries with men, that provided the opportunity.

The good news is that you might now be able to come clean with your BH at some time in the hopefully near future, and proceed with a new marriage built on honesty.

God Bless
Gamma

Posted By: Justthe3ofus Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/05/13 07:13 PM
Originally Posted by Gamma
Annar,

There is another side to this, and that is that by leaving your marriage in a bad state since 2009 you left yourself in need of love and approval. This created an unmet need.

This is not uncommon as most marriages with affairs are left crippled by the affair and without honesty about the affair the couple will be unable to meet each others needs.

The unmet need alone does not create an affair however, as it was your poor boundaries with men, that provided the opportunity.

The good news is that you might now be able to come clean with your BH at some time in the hopefully near future, and proceed with a new marriage built on honesty.

God Bless
Gamma

Well put, Gamma. I believe there is still hope here, but Annar has to be committed to radical honesty and the extraordinary precautions that are necessary to make her husband feel safe.
Posted By: gucio4 Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/06/13 06:22 PM
Justthe3ofus,



Re: I suggest you write him a love letter. Express how much you love him, how sorry you are, how wrong you were to hurt him, and that you are committed to changes that will affair proof your marriage and make the two of you fall in love and stay in love.
Share some of the things you have learned and invite him to join you in learning these new ideas.

Before sending him the letter post it here so we can give you some suggestions for revision.

Here is what I have written. I appreciate all of your input in this. Please let me know what revisions I should make.


Dear XXXX,

I came across a card you have given me two years back for Mother's Day, it brought warmth, comfort and feelings of pure love when I read it. It was at this time that I realized that it has been years since I have written you a letter expressing my true feelings, thoughts and hopes for our future. You have always been good at holding on to our little exchanges from years ago. Seeing a little box full of letters and cards always brings a smile to my face. But at the same time, my heart aches realizing how distant those written words feel, and so I hope that with this letter I can express to you the sincere love I feel for you, the remorse of my actions that overtake my life, and the hope to have the chance to find the love in each other that lies in the words we have exchanged.

Reflecting back, our paths in life have crossed for the sole purpose of love like no other. My love for you is as strong right now as it was sixteen years ago. I can look into your eyes and see the same hopes and dreams as I did when I first met you. Together, we have been able to achieve many of those dreams, share the love we had for each other with our two beautiful kids, and grow in ways I never thought possible. XXXX, you are my world, my support, the foundation to everything that I have accomplished over the years. You are the reason my eyes search for you across the room, the reason my heart skips a beat and the reason I am able to smile. I have always admired the strength in you, the determination, level-headedness, passion for what you do, and most importantly, the husband and father that you became. No words in this letter can express the love I feel for you.

With all the love I have for you, I managed to fail you. I took what's so sacred, pure and like no other and I shattered it. For that, I am deeply sorry. I am ashamed and repulsed by my actions. I am overwhelmed by the pain I have caused you. I was not able to keep the promise I made to you as you took my hand in marriage, and for that I will never forgive myself. You, out of all the people, know more about me and my family, my childhood, my beliefs. And all I did was follow what I have opposed. I want to thank you for staying by my side despite all that I have done. I know you are in pain, I know you have not healed and I know I keep ripping off the bandaids and exposing the wounds. Again, I am deeply sorry. I want to be the wife that you deserve, I want to be the same woman you fell in love with, and I want to help you heal. I want you to feel safe in my arms and know that you can count on me. I have your mom's words she left for us on our wedding day echoing in my ears "always look out for each other", I want to go back to that moment and stay there forever.

I realize I have not taken the right steps to lead our marriage in the right direction. I want you to know, that I am learning. I want to make all the right decisions to help us see the future of our lives. I hope that the future can hold our lives together, allow our love to thrive and flourish, and once again become the unbreakable bond we once had. I am willing to go to extraordinary measures to protect what we have and promise you to never lose sight of you. I ask for your forgiveness as you make your decision of what you'd like for your future. I hope it includes me by your side, building a marriage that is honest, ture and full of love.

With all my heart, forever yours.

XXX



Posted By: gucio4 Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/06/13 06:41 PM
I want to also include an update from last few days. As I have mentioned, things have been quite rough. I will be honest and say I have never experienced the pain I am feeling now.

My husband and I have many discussions recently, most very heated, the emotional roller-coaster has been unbearable. He's very closed in, not willing to truly express what's bottled up inside. Two days ago, he did express some of his pain, his concerns and his broken hopes. They left me speechless. To hear that he recently thought of putting on his wedding ring once again made the earth fall from under my feet. To think that he started to slowly come around only for me to turn around and make it even worse.

I'm not sure if he sees all the pain I'm going through, but it comforts me to see him acting a little warmer towards me. He spends time talking to me after the kids have gone to bed. He doesn't push me away when I try to give him a hug. Even if short lived, those moments mean the world to me.

I have told him about all the steps I have taken so far to protect our marriage and the plans I hope to share with him. I told him I am awaiting the arrival of SAA book.

I want to thank all of you who have taken the time to comment, allowing me a perspective I might have failed to recognize. I appreciate all of your input and hope to have your continued support and advice.
Posted By: zibbles Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/06/13 06:48 PM
you're still pretty foggy imo. the letter is a lot of me, me, me. i feel this. i'm so upset. i'm destroyed.

that's pretty offensive to a betrayed spouse. (i'm a former wayward btw).

i hope you're not using YOUR PAIN to make him turn back to you. it happens and if you don't snap out of it to really see him and address his needs now, his resentment of you is going to go off the charts down the road.

this looks manipulative to me and not like a real letter to address the destruction you caused.
Posted By: gucio4 Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/06/13 07:10 PM
zibbles,

stating I effed up and I'm sorry, I respect your decision to move on and don't let my remorse hold you back should finalize my letter?? Jt3ou recommended a love letter from me. Maybe I'm taking it the wrong way, but I have expressed MY feelings because it is coming from ME. My husband is not expressing much to me, he never has. I don't know how else to word my acknowledgemet of his pain.

You seem to be familiar with it, what is your recommendation?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/07/13 01:14 AM
Have you seen this?
TrueHeart's Letter
Posted By: gucio4 Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/07/13 03:53 AM
Thank you for sharing, BrainHurts. This was a very helpful read.
Posted By: Gamma Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/07/13 04:16 AM
Gucio,

One thing you may be missing is that recovery takes at least two years minimum from the time when everything has been disclosed. Any new lies or lies discovered from the past and you start over again.

This last incident set your recovery clock back to zero but at lest it may be counting up now.

You really need to practice radical honesty, don't lie about anything, even non-sexual things, if you spent 100 on a pair of shoes at a good shop don't tell him you spent 50 at Walmart.

God Bless
Gamma
Posted By: Justthe3ofus Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/07/13 05:18 AM
gucio,

My recommended changes:


Dear XXXX,

I came across a card you gave me two years ago for Mother's Day, and it evoked such strong feelings of warmth, comfort and love. It was at this time that I realized that it has been years since I have written you a letter expressing my true feelings, thoughts and hopes for our future. You have always been good at holding on to our little exchanges from years ago. Seeing your little box full of letters and cards always brings a smile to my face. But at the same time, my heart aches realizing how I have taken steps to ruin such a loving relationship. And with that, I write you yet another letter for your box. I hope that with this letter I can express to you the love I feel for you, my remorse for betraying you, and my plan for making sure it doesn't happen again.

My love for you is as strong right now as it was sixteen years ago. Together, we have been able to achieve our dreams, share the love we had for each other with our two beautiful kids, and grow in ways I never thought possible. XXXX, you are my world, my support, my foundation. I have always admired the strength in you, the determination, levelheadedness, passion for what you do, and most importantly, the husband and father that you became. My words fail to adequately express my love for you.

And still I failed you. I took what is sacred and pure and shattered it. For that, I am deeply sorry and ashamed. The pain I have caused you not once but multiple times cannot be excused. Though I may not deserve it, my hope is that I will have the chance to offer you just compensation for my actions. I want to be the wife that you deserve, who makes you happy, and makes you feel safe.

I ask you for the chance to embark with me on a journey down a new road. I vow to protect you by taking extraordinary precautions and being transparent. I will put our relationship first, and put an end to the behaviors and lifestyle that led me astray. I will no longer spend recreational time on my computer or engage in any other activities where other men can vie for my attention. I will forsake all others for you.

I hope that you will take my hand and walk with me down this new path. I desire to rebuild our marriage with honesty, truth, and love.

My love,
XXX
Posted By: gucio4 Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/07/13 07:40 PM
Thank you, Justthe3ofus. Your help is greatly appreciated.

Had a good night again last night. Made pizza with my husband. He's been warm, more open. Although he slept in another room, I feel hopeful. This morning he offered for us to make something new together, we ended up making crapes. I will leave my letter to him today.

I also received the book in the mail. I told him about the Love Bank, Love Deposits and Withdrawals. Probably not a good time to be discussing it, but I want him to know the things I'm learning.
Posted By: gucio4 Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/07/13 07:44 PM
Thank you, Gamma, for all your advice. I know I'm starting back from zero, but each day that passes with my husband by my side is an achievement like no other.
Posted By: Justthe3ofus Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/08/13 04:00 PM
Gucio,

Gamma's advice about radical honesty is very important. When a spouse betrays another the lies and secretiveness are about as hurtful as the act of you giving your heart and body to someone else. And because your history, every lie will incense your husband and make love bank withdrawals of increasingly great proportions. He has probably reached the point of zero tolerance so you have to make that change now, and it has to be permanent. No more tokens left for you.

Though things are going better, remember he will need time, and his resentment will last a very long time. Here is what Dr. Harley says about resentment:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5062_qa.html

Posted By: GloveOil Re: Please Help Save my Marriage!!! - 12/08/13 07:41 PM
Originally Posted by happyheart
There was absolutely a point in saying you were divorced. You knew that the chances of being complimented and getting attention are slim when you are "taken". Oh, I know that it is like a turn-down when you tell an interested man, who is being extra nice to you that you are married. You might as well say: quit talking to me.

But that is just the point. You have to stay away from situations where people come on to you. That is why people wear wedding rings to signal their inavailability and why you should keep away from situations where you might be tempted.

If you crave for admiration and attention, you have to be honest with yourself. To say you do not know why you told him you were married is not credible. You did not tell him because it did not fit your intentions.
Gucio: I suggest that you read & re-read what Happyheart has written above, every day. Read it until your eyes bleed. Until you've memorized it.

Every little "white" (or not-so-white) lie, and every baldfaced lie, is another foot out onto the slippery slope at which you're currently staring back up from the bottom.

"I don't know why" is more in the baldfaced category, 'cuz in order to say that, you need to be averting your eyes from the conclusion to which the truth leads.

It'll be easier to get into the habit of being honest with others (on matters large & small) if you first start being honest with yourself about what your own motives were. Your own motives were lousy -- at the core, it was selfishness. (Which was what all affairs are -- selfishness.) A truthful answer to the question of "Why?" you did what you did is that you got horribly selfish. That sucked for me to have to admit to myself amost 5 years ago, after my affair, and it sucks for you to have to admit it today; but admit it you must, if you want to give yourself a shot at changing to become someone to whom your spouse might ever feel safe giving another chance.
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