Marriage Builders
Posted By: brokenjc Complicated Situation-Long Post-Please Help - 03/24/14 06:02 PM
My husband and I have been together for 12 years, married for 8 with two great kids (6 and 4 years old). From the beginning of our relationship, he would lie to me about small things that really didn't matter. I somehow always felt that if he could lie about small things, he could lie about big things and I never really trusted him. As the years have passed, he meets less and less of my emotional needs. I have informed him of this fact and begged and pleaded for a change, but my requests were always met with hostility. In turn, I began caring less and less about his happiness and became more and more controlling about the way that I wanted things in our house and more apathetic towards him, therefore meeting less and less of his emotional needs. I can't say that our sex life has ever been very good. And he has a history of developing inappropriate relationships with other women. I read an e-mail that he sent to an old college friend where he was telling her how pretty and desirable she was. I confronted him and he tried to make it sound like it was no big deal. At his last job, he developed a friendship with a woman and they would take breaks together, text each other at home and on holidays. I said that I thought it was inappropriate and he said he would end the friendship. I think he did. As I will set forth below, he has now started a relationship with a woman that reports to him at work. Despite these issues, we make some kind of sense together and I believe that we love each other. We are well-educated, have a nice home, and live all other aspects of our lives in a seemingly respectable and normal fashion.

Last fall, I reconnected with an old boyfriend over the internet. At the time, I didn't know the full ramifications of what was happening and thought it was just nice to catch up with someone who had been important in my life. I recognize now that I was not getting my emotional needs met and the OM met them very easily and all the warning signs were there for an affair. In fact, when I saw that things were headed towards an affair, I went to my husband, told him that I thought I was headed towards an affair and begged him to help me fix our marriage. He was bitter and resentful and spent that time punishing me and belittling me for having an emotional affair. I think he was hurt, but I also think that his ego is fed by attention from women and he couldn't believe that I would "reject" him. After months of isolation and conflict in my house, I took my relationship with the OM to a physical level and told my husband that I wanted a separation.

We separated, but after a few months, he moved back in. We never really fixed any problems in our marriage and I kept in contact with the OM. This went on for four months. However, about a month ago, some switch flipped and my husband and I started working on our marriage. We found a good marriage counselor that has been helping us and we have enjoyed our time together more and more. I think we could both tell that things were changing. I was encouraged...and hopeful. I ended things with the OM, but never told my husband the full extent of my relationship with the OM. My husband didn't know that it had become physical. We seemed to be headed down a good path for the first time in a really long time, which is why I was dumbfounded when I learned a few days ago that my husband was having a physical relationship with a woman that reports to him at work. I discovered his affair by reading their texts. He says he's not in love with her and has no feelings for her. He used to complain all the time about this person and how neurotic she was and how she drove him crazy at work. In my whole life I would not have put the two of them together. (Plus, this is someone I know....she is married and we have gotten together socially with her and her husband a bunch of times).

I know how we got here. I know why I cheated and I know why he cheated. I feel like a hypocrite for feeling so hurt and betrayed, given what I have done, too. In the last day, I have let me husband know that my relationship with the OM was more extensive than he knew. What I can't get over is why my husband continued his affair during a time when he had committed to making our marriage better and was going to counseling with me. We even planned to take a trip together in the next three weeks. I don't think he would have ended things with her if I had not discovered the affair, even though he says that he is not in love with her, has no feelings for her and was using her to stroke his own ego and to feel better about himself given the state of our marriage. In a moment of brutal honesty, he said he thought he would keep her in his back pocket in case things with us went south again. That statement, alone, makes me question what kind of person I'm married to. I have poured over the Marriage Builders site, but haven't been able to find something that addresses the issue of both of us cheating. And maybe it doesn't matter....maybe the recovery is the same, either way. Right now I feel so hurt and betrayed and it's hard to see a way to making our marriage better.

This is my real issue though: I think my husband has a problem with developing these inappropriate relationships with women. I believe that in every instance where he's done it, he starts by complaining about me and our life together...often making it sound worse than it really is. Then he starts complimenting them. He seems to target needy and kind of unattractive women. They feed his ego. Maybe I'm rationalizing, but I feel like my affair was born out of not getting my needs met, even after asking for it for years, whereas his was just the same thing he's been doing for years...born out of some ego-driven aspect of his personality, taken to another level. Is that fair? Does it matter? He is committed to seeking personal counseling because he says he recognizes that his behavior his slimey. I want to share the information on this site with him, but I'm afraid that he is going to start to believe that his behavior with these women is because I'm not meeting a need....And maybe it is, but it sure doesn't seem like it. Even he will admit that earlier in our marriage, I gave him everything....everything I had. And he just took, took, took, without caring for whether he was meeting any of my needs.

My final issue is this: I know that exposure of our affairs is a big deal, but we are both attorneys and what my husband did with his subordinate is sexual harassment. I feel that if my husband's affair is exposed, he will lose his job and it will be my children that suffer. Further, for reasons too complicated to go into, I don't think my husband can leave his job any time in the immediate future, which means he will continue to have contact with this person until one of them finally leaves. Is there any hope that we could have a recovery given that circumstance?

Thank you for enduring the long post....I'm only days out from learning about his affair, so I feel desperate to figure out a plan of action, even when everything is telling me to put this tragic marriage out to pasture.
Originally Posted by brokenjc
My final issue is this: I know that exposure of our affairs is a big deal, but we are both attorneys and what my husband did with his subordinate is sexual harassment. I feel that if my husband's affair is exposed, he will lose his job and it will be my children that suffer. Further, for reasons too complicated to go into, I don't think my husband can leave his job any time in the immediate future, which means he will continue to have contact with this person until one of them finally leaves. Is there any hope that we could have a recovery given that circumstance?
Welcome to MB, broken, and I'm sorry to hear of these events in your marriage.

The short answer to this question is no; your marriage does not have a hope in hell of recovering while your H and OW work together.

Your H's affair does not have to be exposed at work immediately but he needs to leave the job immediately. Dr Harley advises giving the unfaithful spouse one month to change jobs and then exposing at work if they will not leave.

I live in the UK and I might have a rosy view of the lifestyle of attorneys in the USA that I've gathered from watching too many crime dramas, but I cannot believe it would be hard for your H to find another job far away from where you live now.

Have you told any of your family and friends about the affairs on both sides? Whom have you told? Do you kids know about them?

There are many other things to deal with from your post, such as your rationalising and differentiating your own affair from your H's, but there will be plenty of time to discuss those issues. The most urgent ones are the questions I am asking now.
Dr. Harley says that we are all wired to have an affair. And if we don't have a plan to prevent one, we are very likely to have one.

Affairs happen because of poor boundaries around the opposite sex. Obviously, this is the problem with your H. He has always had terrible boundaries around women. But this is why you had an affair, too. Granted your unmet emotional needs made it much easier to have an affair, but even if all your needs were met, poor boundaries make an affair possible.

First, you both need to be radically honest about the extent of the affairs. Your H needs to know that your affair was not only emotional but physical. He deserves to know the extent of your affair, so he can make his own decisions about what to do. He needs to answer all of your questions about the number and extent of his affairs, who were the OW and so on. After all your questions and his questions are answered, then it should never be brought up again.

Both you and your husband need to expose your affairs to your children, to your family, and to your closest friends. This will give you both support for what you going through and accountability.

The reason for telling your children is so they know the source of the tension in their home. Most children over the age of 4 can understand the concept of how married people aren't to be with others.

He or the OW will need to leave the job. Recovery won't be possibly until that happens. I would give him 30 days to leave before going to their HR department to expose his affair with his subordinate.

Do you have the book Surviving an Affair? If not, you should buy it right away and read it. You can get it on Kindle, too. It's the best, most concise book I've personally ever read on recovering from an affair.

There are folks here who have recovered after both have had affairs. Recovery in either case is a narrow path. Each step needs to followed to have a successful outcome.

Here's what SAA has to say about how to end an affair and begin the recovery process:

From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.


Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

I'm sorry for the reasons that brought you here. But MB is the best place for recovery from an affair.
Thank you for your response. My mom and sister (my closest family) know about his affair. I have not told my own family about my affair, though I have told many of my friends. He told me that a few people at his job suspect that there is something going on between him and the OW. To my knowledge, no one else knows about his affair.

We work in a state capitol and my husband has a high-level job with the state, controlled by the governor's office. Most of the jobs in town are state jobs. The governor's office will not give him another state-level job because they want him in that position. He may be able to get a job somewhere else, but it would take more than a month.

My children are small....six and four....so they do not know about the affairs, nor would I want them to. My son heard us fighting in the car (something we never do in front of our children) and it made my son physically ill. I would never burden my children with this when I think they are far too young to understand....Maybe that is the wrong approach. I don't know.
Thank you, LongWayFromHome. I want to fix our marriage and he says that he does, too. When I first discovered the texts, he said that he would change jobs. I don't know how feasible it is, but I am willing to tell him that he needs to do it and see what happens.

I could tell from the texts that the OW felt that this was some sort of special relationship. Further, my H told me that even after he realized he wanted to repair our marriage and end things with the OW, he didn't because he is a coward, wants people to like him and didn't want her to be angry. Because I felt that I could not expose this situation without fear of my husband being fired for sexual harassment, I sent the OW a text informing her that she is not special, that she is part of a pattern of him doing this with other women, and that I thought her husband should be informed. It is my fervent hope that she will find the conditions at their job intolerable and will leave, particularly if my H cannot.

I told my H that I thought radical change needed to happen quickly, but I wasn't sure what to do. I am glad I found this site.
Dr. Harley would absolutely advise you that your H and the OW must be separated and never see or contact each other again. If you both want to recover your marriage, this part must happen. That's why extraordinary precautions to prevent affairs are so important.

Affairs cause immeasurable emotional harm, great economic harm, and the loss of many families. Many people find they must move away to get away from the OW or OM.

I understand that leaving his job will be difficult, but either he or the OW needs to leave the job. And if the OW lives close by, Dr. Harley would also strongly recommend moving.

I'm sure that's not what you want to hear, but the truth is so many marriages are crippled by infidelity. Even if you stay together under these conditions, the success of marriage is very likely doomed. I'm sorry.

The reason we were able to achieve a wonderful recovery after my H's 2nd affair and not from his first is because we followed MB. We now have the best marriage we have ever had. It's very romantic, very passionate, and very safe. Our first "recovery" resulted in a crippled marriage that hurt for a long time and was still unsafe.

If you want the best chance at a successful recovery, MB is the path to follow. But deviations from the steps that have been studied and found to lead to success will pretty much guarantee a very disappointing outcome.
So, LongWayFromHome, do you mind if I ask why your first attempt at recovery resulted in harm? I'm okay with my husband getting another job. I'm okay outing myself to my friends and family. I am having a hard time with the idea of telling my very young children this very adult information. And I think my H is going to find all of the steps to be excessive because he doesn't believe he has any real feelings for this person....that he is using her as he used all of the women that came before her. To some extent I believe him. Maybe that is na�ve on my part?
Originally Posted by brokenjc
I sent the OW a text informing her that she is not special, that she is part of a pattern of him doing this with other women, and that I thought her husband should be informed.
You are making recovery impossible by refusing to do the things Dr Harley recommends. One of these is telling OWH. He deserves to know the truth about his own marriage and he could become a great ally, keeping tabs on his wife to make sure that she is not in contact with your H in the future. He could demand that she leaves her job; that's what OWH did in my situation. He might not want to make her bring a sexual harassment charge against your H, because she will then have to discuss their sexual relationship and have her own conduct on her record.

You need to tell OWH about the affair. You also need to tell more people within both yours and your husband's family about all the affairs between you, so that they can give you help an support.

I don't really understand the intricacies of why it would be difficult for your H to leave his job, and neither, quite honestly, do I care about them. I care about you, as a BW trying to recover with your H working with OW. (Your issues as a WW are also critical, but not to the discussion of your H's job.)

This is something similar to what I went through myself and if I had known about MB I would have exposed the affair to my H's employers on the spot, and gladly risked his unemployment.

There is no such thing as a job that cannot be resigned from. You can choose for your H to keep his job and for you and the kids to keep your standard of living, or you can choose your marriage. You cannot have both - and I know which one was more important to me.
Originally Posted by brokenjc
And I think my H is going to find all of the steps to be excessive because he doesn't believe he has any real feelings for this person....that he is using her as he used all of the women that came before her. To some extent I believe him. Maybe that is na�ve on my part?
Pleas tell us briefly about "all of the women that came before her". What did he do with these women? Did you say above that it was all flirting and banter, or has there been a deeper emotional or physical affair before this one?

The problem is that since your H has terrible boundaries around women and does not see what he does as a problem at all, there is no point nailing down this affair and making sure he goes NC with this woman if he is just going to continue on his merry way, chatting up the honeys as a matter of routine. If he is a serial cheater then there is no point your going into recovery unless you can remove the conditions that allow him to do whatever he does - which might mean that he cannot work around women again.

What did he do with these other women?
The reason my H's first affair didn't result in a real recovery was because:

1.) My H never became transparent with me. I never even thought to get his email passwords, etc. Or ask who this OW was.

2.) He still had inappropriate conversations and flirtations with different women.

3.) Our marriage didn't become better than before the affair.

4.) He still traveled for business reasons. (one of the conditions of his first affair was travel.)

5.) Hardly anyone knew about the affair. It was all I could do to tell my own parents and his parents. Our daughter, who was 15 at the time, wasn't told. She was greatly stressed by our fights. Now she knows, though.

Because of the above problems, our marriage was still a great disappointment to me. It always lacked...something. I resented him for a long long time.

After a few years, I discovered very flirtatious emails with another woman. Luckily she lived very far away and didn't seem nearly as interested in him.

Years after his first affair, he had another affair during his long deployment. He had completely forgotten his first affair. I had not.

Recovery is very difficult. It's the hardest thing I have ever done. But three-plus years later, I can honestly say that I'm glad I stayed. Our marriage is everything I ever wanted. And my H says the same. We are in love with each other. So recovery was worth it.
You are, of course, correct. I am worried about our reputations, our jobs, our standard of living. But my marriage means more to me than any of those things. I guess when I read the Exposure rules, they seemed to be geared towards a WS that is in love with the affair partner and refuses to end the affair.... My husband is not refusing that. To the contrary, he insists that the OW was a means to an end and that there were no real feelings present. My H told me that in recent weeks, the nature of his "relationship" with the OW had started to go back to something that was more friendly and less affair-ish. Even if I don't fully understand the reasoning, though, I will follow the guidelines because I want this to work.
Originally Posted by brokenjc
So, LongWayFromHome, do you mind if I ask why your first attempt at recovery resulted in harm? I'm okay with my husband getting another job. I'm okay outing myself to my friends and family. I am having a hard time with the idea of telling my very young children this very adult information. And I think my H is going to find all of the steps to be excessive because he doesn't believe he has any real feelings for this person....that he is using her as he used all of the women that came before her. To some extent I believe him. Maybe that is na�ve on my part?

First of all read some threads here, ALL WAYWARDS LIE. If you remmember back to your Wayward time you probably lied alot as well. Your H will gaslight you so he can keep the A an option, he admitted this to you.

Seondly, your children already know something is going on but are confused as to what. Your 4 year old will know its wrong but will move on within about an hour of your both coming clean. Your 6 year old shoudl clearly understand what is going on. You need to make sure they know the tension and problems in the household does not have to do with them and you need to show them an example of honesty so they develop that virtue. They will aslo keep both of you accountable. The 6 year old should be told whto the cheating partners are on both of your parts so they can hold you both accountable and keep you both on track for recovery. If they don't know the truth they could be introduced by either of you the the OP unknowlingly and have them introduced into their lives under false pretense.

Thirdly, that A will not end until either the OW or your WH leave that job. You do not (and should given your previous A) understand the power of the A, it is an addiction that will not end with constant exposure. That's like expecting an alcoholic who works at a bar to stay sober. NOT HAPPENING.
Originally Posted by SugarCane
[quote=brokenjc]Pleas tell us briefly about "all of the women that came before her". What did he do with these women? Did you say above that it was all flirting and banter, or has there been a deeper emotional or physical affair before this one?

The problem is that since your H has terrible boundaries around women and does not see what he does as a problem at all, there is no point nailing down this affair and making sure he goes NC with this woman if he is just going to continue on his merry way, chatting up the honeys as a matter of routine. If he is a serial cheater then there is no point your going into recovery unless you can remove the conditions that allow him to do whatever he does - which might mean that he cannot work around women again.

What did he do with these other women?

You have articulated my fear....that this is an issue with his personality that is going to follow him into another job or another situation even if he is cut off from this OW that he says he cares nothing about. To my knowledge, this was the only PA he has ever had. Early in our relationship, I would find e-mails to old girlfriends where he would be complaining out me...often portraying me poorly and very unfairly. He would compliment them....telling them they were pretty or whatever. At his last job, he started spending a lot of time with a woman in his office (who did not report to him). They texted a lot and I told him I thought it was inappropriate. In the last day, he admitted that he did the same thing with her....told her how pretty she was, that her husband treated her badly and she deserved better, etc. etc. To my knowledge, that never led to a PA...Likely because I cut it off before it went further. Then, at this job, he did the same thing with the OW....Complimenting her all the time while confiding in her about our marriage problems. Eventually, she told him that she had a crush on him and they began a PA. His says that they never had intercourse, but only made out several times. I don't draw much of a distinction, though.
Hi broken, welcome to Marriage Builders. You are getting great advice from some of our best posters and I want to reaffirm what they have told you. Some points that I want to address from your post:

1. You and your husband had affairs because you both have poor boundaries around members of the opposite sex. Period. And it will keep happening until that changes and the environment that led to the affairs is changed.

2. No, your marriage will never recover if your husband stays in that job. That is like asking if the falling down drunk can recover by going to the bar every day. I would give your husband 30 days to leave that job or I would expose his affair to the workplace.

He needs to quietly get put of there before the news comes out on its own. He should never supervise women again and needs to be in an occupation where he won't be so tempted, whatever that may be. I am surprised that an attorney would be such a loose cannon but since he doesn't have any better sense than that, you can help him in that regard by giving him 30 days to leave.

I would also tell everyone about your affairs. You need the support and more importantly, you need people to hold you accountable. I would also inform the OWs husband about what your husband has done. He has a right to know.

And lastly, tell your husband the full truth about your affair. Don't hold back anything. This is information about his life.
Originally Posted by brokenjc
You are, of course, correct. I am worried about our reputations, our jobs, our standard of living. But my marriage means more to me than any of those things. I guess when I read the Exposure rules, they seemed to be geared towards a WS that is in love with the affair partner and refuses to end the affair.... My husband is not refusing that. To the contrary, he insists that the OW was a means to an end and that there were no real feelings present. My H told me that in recent weeks, the nature of his "relationship" with the OW had started to go back to something that was more friendly and less affair-ish. Even if I don't fully understand the reasoning, though, I will follow the guidelines because I want this to work.

The point of exposure is to end the A by removing the secrecy and bringing out to the forefront. Your H has poor boundaries and his behaviro should be made known. He has a pattern of seeking women out and seemingly taking advantage of them and he should be exposed. The leadership at his job needs to be made known so it can protect themselves from a lawsuit by helping end the A. Trust they will, especially in a government office and the chance of scandal.

It appears your H will need to go into private practice or a law firm with no women as he has already proven his poor boundaries. As long as you leave him in that environment you are enabling his addiction and he will continue to have inappropriate relationships with women leading to more A's.
I guess I am a bit confused because I read Willard Harley's "When Should an Affair Be Exposed" article on the website and it says, "While I unhesitatingly recommend exposing the affair to friends, family, clergy, children and lover's spouse, I'm not so quick to suggest exposing it to an employer. That's because such exposure could have unintended legal and economic consequences. For example, the affair might constitute grounds for a sexual harassment claim by the unfaithful spouses lover. Or it might trigger the outright firing of the spouse, making it far more difficult for them to find another job." And that's when the 30-day rule kicks in to find another job. I feel like when I expose this to the OW's husband, he will likely be the one to make sure my H loses his job and has a sexual harassment charge filed against him. Though, the OW is also an attorney and has a reputation to consider.
Originally Posted by brokenjc
You are, of course, correct. I am worried about our reputations, our jobs, our standard of living. But my marriage means more to me than any of those things. I guess when I read the Exposure rules, they seemed to be geared towards a WS that is in love with the affair partner and refuses to end the affair.... My husband is not refusing that. To the contrary, he insists that the OW was a means to an end and that there were no real feelings present. My H told me that in recent weeks, the nature of his "relationship" with the OW had started to go back to something that was more friendly and less affair-ish. Even if I don't fully understand the reasoning, though, I will follow the guidelines because I want this to work.

Bullcrap aside, his tortured "explanations" change nothing. An affair is an affair. Exposure is for marital recovery after an affair. Your husbands feelings about the OW (whatever lie he tells about them) have no relevance.
Originally Posted by brokenjc
I guess I am a bit confused because I read Willard Harley's "When Should an Affair Be Exposed" article on the website and it says, "While I unhesitatingly recommend exposing the affair to friends, family, clergy, children and lover's spouse, I'm not so quick to suggest exposing it to an employer. That's because such exposure could have unintended legal and economic consequences. For example, the affair might constitute grounds for a sexual harassment claim by the unfaithful spouses lover. Or it might trigger the outright firing of the spouse, making it far more difficult for them to find another job." And that's when the 30-day rule kicks in to find another job. I feel like when I expose this to the OW's husband, he will likely be the one to make sure my H loses his job and has a sexual harassment charge filed against him. Though, the OW is also an attorney and has a reputation to consider.

Yes, give him 30 days to leave the job or you should expose it at work. The OWs husband has to be told also. You might wait until your husband leaves but I would wait no longer. The OWH right to know what your husband has done supersedes your husbands selfish interests. He was not "concerned" about his reputation when he was shagging this mans wife.
Originally Posted by txstunnedman
The point of exposure is to end the A by removing the secrecy and bringing out to the forefront. Your H has poor boundaries and his behaviro should be made known. He has a pattern of seeking women out and seemingly taking advantage of them and he should be exposed. The leadership at his job needs to be made known so it can protect themselves from a lawsuit by helping end the A. Trust they will, especially in a government office and the chance of scandal.

It appears your H will need to go into private practice or a law firm with no women as he has already proven his poor boundaries. As long as you leave him in that environment you are enabling his addiction and he will continue to have inappropriate relationships with women leading to more A's.

My H says that he is going into counseling to try to figure out why he is doing these things. He copied me on an e-mail to our marriage counselor, asking for a recommendation for an individual counselor. Do you think that we will both always have poor boundaries with people of the opposite sex? You don't think that is something that can be changed?
" I feel like when I expose this to the OW's husband, he will likely be the one to make sure my H loses his job and has a sexual harassment charge filed against him. Though, the OW is also an attorney and has a reputation to consider."

Keep in mind that the OW and your husband weren't "considering" their reputations when they were conducting a workplace affair. That is about as unprofessional as it gets and surely you realize that your husband should NEVER be in authority over women much less work around them.
Originally Posted by brokenjc
Originally Posted by txstunnedman
The point of exposure is to end the A by removing the secrecy and bringing out to the forefront. Your H has poor boundaries and his behaviro should be made known. He has a pattern of seeking women out and seemingly taking advantage of them and he should be exposed. The leadership at his job needs to be made known so it can protect themselves from a lawsuit by helping end the A. Trust they will, especially in a government office and the chance of scandal.

It appears your H will need to go into private practice or a law firm with no women as he has already proven his poor boundaries. As long as you leave him in that environment you are enabling his addiction and he will continue to have inappropriate relationships with women leading to more A's.

My H says that he is going into counseling to try to figure out why he is doing these things. He copied me on an e-mail to our marriage counselor, asking for a recommendation for an individual counselor. Do you think that we will both always have poor boundaries with people of the opposite sex? You don't think that is something that can be changed?

We can tell him why he has affairs for free. He has affairs because he has poor boundaries around women and has a career where he can pursue affairs.

You won't have poor boundaries around the opposite sex if you change your boundaries and remove the environment that led to the affairs. That is part of the marriage builders recovery plan.
P.s. I would suggest that your husband going to counseling is a huge distraction at a time that his marriage is crashing. That is most waywards DREAM to go waste time in counseling instead of making the necessary changes to his marriage.

Counseling is a great way to waste time and won't help your marriage.
Originally Posted by brokenjc
Originally Posted by txstunnedman
The point of exposure is to end the A by removing the secrecy and bringing out to the forefront. Your H has poor boundaries and his behaviro should be made known. He has a pattern of seeking women out and seemingly taking advantage of them and he should be exposed. The leadership at his job needs to be made known so it can protect themselves from a lawsuit by helping end the A. Trust they will, especially in a government office and the chance of scandal.

It appears your H will need to go into private practice or a law firm with no women as he has already proven his poor boundaries. As long as you leave him in that environment you are enabling his addiction and he will continue to have inappropriate relationships with women leading to more A's.

My H says that he is going into counseling to try to figure out why he is doing these things. He copied me on an e-mail to our marriage counselor, asking for a recommendation for an individual counselor. Do you think that we will both always have poor boundaries with people of the opposite sex? You don't think that is something that can be changed?

Your H doesn't need counseling to find out why he has poor boundaries. Everyone can be trusted under some conditions, and no one can be trusted under others. We are ALL wired to have affairs, and as I said in my first post, if we don't actually have a plan to prevent an affair, we are likely to have one.

If everyone had extraordinary precautions, affairs would be virtually nonexistent. My H had poor boundaries around women, and now, because of following EPs, his boundaries are great.

I've always known I could be tempted by another man in the right conditions, so I have always practiced EPs, even when I didn't know about them officially.
Originally Posted by brokenjc
I guess when I read the Exposure rules, they seemed to be geared towards a WS that is in love with the affair partner and refuses to end the affair.... My husband is not refusing that. To the contrary, he insists that the OW was a means to an end and that there were no real feelings present. My H told me that in recent weeks, the nature of his "relationship" with the OW had started to go back to something that was more friendly and less affair-ish.
My dear, I'm so sorry, but my H said something very similar when I first discovered his affair. The physical side of the affair was only about 6 weeks old, with their having had sex perhaps on 3 occasions in that time, when I discovered foreign-language condoms in his underwear drawer. He told me that the affair was just a sideshow...a bit of fun for both of them, and he'd felt that it wouldn't be a huge deal to me if I found out because our marriage was horrible at the time and we had very little to do with each other; why would I care?

He described OW as a bored married woman who also had a dull marriage and who was looking for some excitement; that was it. When I asked him fearfully if they were in love with each other he said scornfully "of course not!" When I asked him if he planned to leave me for her, he said even more scornfully that no, he had never planned to leave; this was a fling and I shouldn't be so dramatic.

This woman did not work directly with him, but was a client to the Belgian branch of his company. When he went to Brussels about twice a month for one or two nights at a time, they had been hanging around in the bar after meetings and flirting, eventually kissing and deciding to meet in his hotel for sex. She wasn't even as close to him as the OW in your case, because there was no need for her to be at most of his meetings in Brussels. But what they had was an easy opportunity to meet without their spouses knowing.

Anyway, having told me the above about how little the affair meant to him at the six weeks mark, he simply continued to see her every time he was in Brussels after that, for TWO YEARS until I realised that they had never stopped meeting. By that time they were in love and she was ready to leave her H for him. And because I still hadn't discovered MB I did not insist that he leave the job straight away. I begged him to find another job and he applied for internal posts, but I thought he'd resent me if I made him leave and I dared not do this. From March 2005 to August 2006, the date I finally told him I was leaving because I could not survive any more hurt, which was when he went to work and said he was not travelling ever again...between those 17 months when I finally put my foot down I had about 6 more D Days. Some were days on which I only discovered more "I love you" text messages, but 3 were days on which I discovered that he was still having sex with her. 3 subsequent occasions following the two previous occasions, two years apart (2003 and 2005), during which I continued to suffer D Days.

This all came after his declaration that the affair was just a fling and she meant nothing to her, a mere 6 weeks into the affair. That is where I started and about 10 D Days later is where I finished. They continued to have phone contact between Brussels and London, at work where I could not monitor him and with his lying to me, of course, for another 5 years. I could only believe that the affair was over when he finally retired for good. He is at home now with no mobile phone and a PC that he does not know is being monitored. That is what it came to in order to stop the affair, for me.

I want to avoid that happening to you, and I just don't believe that if he works with this woman he will be able to stay out of bed with her. Dr Harley has seen the affair continue so routinely that he never, ever deviates from his advice for a job change. This forum has never seen a case of successful recovery without a job change. I'm living proof of a near breakdown without a job change.

It won't work for you so please spare yourself further devastation and make the job change happen, or give up on the marriage.
Broken,

What have you done to expose your affair with OM, have you told his wife and etc, exposed him at his work and church?

Has your BH confronted him or threatened him with a lawsuit?

God Bless
Gamma
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Keep in mind that the OW and your husband weren't "considering" their reputations when they were conducting a workplace affair. That is about as unprofessional as it gets and surely you realize that your husband should NEVER be in authority over women much less work around them.

I do realize this. I am horrified and disgusted by my husband's behavior and communicated to him that the fact that this was a subordinate was particularly difficult for me to understand.
Affairs usually don't make any sense at all. Don't look for any logic. People will jeopardize their families and careers for the thrill of an affair. They don't make any sense; that's why about 95% of all affairs fall apart.

But there is logic in Dr. Harley's research and success in recovering from infidelity. He has helped thousands of couples recover using the steps given here.

The first is letting each other know the full extent of the affair (s) and letting the betrayed spouse of the OM/OW know so they can be watching on their end.

Broken,

Another point is that adultery is a crime, and just as we feel no obligation to conceal the identity of a bank robber, we have no obligation to conceal the identity of a cheater.

Protecting infidelity with secrecy is a disease we need to cure.

God Bless
Gamma
Originally Posted by Gamma
Broken,

What have you done to expose your affair with OM, have you told his wife and etc, exposed him at his work and church?

Has your BH confronted him or threatened him with a lawsuit?

God Bless
Gamma

My OM is not married, he is divorced. My H told his family about my affair and my friends know about my affair, but my family does not. It is my next step and it will be difficult to do. My family is very judgmental. However, I just messaged the OW's H about the affair and a message to my family is the next step. I am terrified of the fallout from this, but I'm trusting this process.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
P.s. I would suggest that your husband going to counseling is a huge distraction at a time that his marriage is crashing. That is most waywards DREAM to go waste time in counseling instead of making the necessary changes to his marriage.

Counseling is a great way to waste time and won't help your marriage.

Can I ask.... On the Exposure 101 site, it said that the BS (and in this case, I'm the BS and the WS), should not tell the WS that they were told to expose from the MB site. I get that. As we start the recovery process, should I share the MB information with my H? Print the information and buy the books?
Originally Posted by SugarCane
[quote=brokenjc] My dear, I'm so sorry, but my H said something very similar when I first discovered his affair...

Thank you for sharing your story. It gave me the push I needed to contact the OW's H. I have also sent an exposure letter to my family. And now I'm waiting for the fallout, which is sure to be substantial.
Originally Posted by LongWayFromHome
The first is letting each other know the full extent of the affair (s) and letting the betrayed spouse of the OM/OW know so they can be watching on their end.

I am doing that now. Will you all help me with the next steps? I have read the site, but am not clear on anything anymore.
Broken,

While you are at it expose to OM exW, kids, parent, grand parents, workplace.

Was there any downside for OM? This must kill your BH if not.

God Bless
Gamma
We will help you through the steps.

For now, I would not mention this website or use the terms MB uses. When your H expresses his willingness to recover your marriage, then that would be the time to let him know of MB.

In the meanwhile, you should order the book SAA. It comes in a plain box, or you can download it from the Amazon website.

Is your H willing to end his affair and all communication with the OW?
If he is willing to end all communication and send a No Contact letter, that would be a good time to address recovery, starting with Extraordinary Precautions.

Meanwhile, make sure you have eliminated your love busters. Be in Plan A, meaning you are being a great wife, expressing a willingness to meet his ENs once his affair is over, completely over.
Please read this.
Exposing to the Children
Originally Posted by Gamma
Broken,

While you are at it expose to OM exW, kids, parent, grand parents, workplace.

Was there any downside for OM? This must kill your BH if not.

God Bless
Gamma

My OM's ex and kids and family all know. We were together for 5 years in high school and college and his family and friends know me and know that I'm married. But the OM went through a horrible divorce with an unkind woman and they all feel that I've "brought OM back to life" so they aren't disapproving. It's all wrong, I know.
Originally Posted by LongWayFromHome
We will help you through the steps.

For now, I would not mention this website or use the terms MB uses. When your H expresses his willingness to recover your marriage, then that would be the time to let him know of MB.

In the meanwhile, you should order the book SAA. It comes in a plain box, or you can download it from the Amazon website.

Is your H willing to end his affair and all communication with the OW?

Well, I'm sure you all don't need me to tell you this, but you were right. Exposure was the right thing to do. My H and I had some time together this afternoon. He told me that he told the OW that it was over and that he loved me and wanted to work on our marriage. She apparently said she was getting a new job. All of this occurred without me knowing yesterday. But then I exposed to the OW's H. When I sat down with my H, he had just gotten a call from the frantic OW, upset because I had exposed to her H. The fact that in the middle of all of her chaos, she was contacting my H for support, was proof enough to me that exposing was the right thing to do. Even when I left to go pick up my kids, my H returned her call and apologized to her that he put her in this position. I think I knew that my H was more deeply entrenched than he admitted and all of this just proved the point. My H was angry at me that I exposed to the OW's H, saying it wasn't my place, but I stuck to my guns and just repeatedly told him that I wasn't worried about their marriage, I was worried about ours and that he could be angry, but I didn't want him to lose sight of the fact that I did this for us, not to be petty and vindictive. By the end of the night, his anger had subsided a great deal. My H also called his family and told him that he had cheated on me. So I guess yesterday was our big exposure day. Almost everyone that is important in our life, knows. The thing that we haven't done is sit down and answer all of each other's questions about what has transpired, and this is the part that I'm scared about because my H knows far less about my affair than I know about his (I think).
Originally Posted by LongWayFromHome
If he is willing to end all communication and send a No Contact letter, that would be a good time to address recovery, starting with Extraordinary Precautions.

Meanwhile, make sure you have eliminated your love busters. Be in Plan A, meaning you are being a great wife, expressing a willingness to meet his ENs once his affair is over, completely over.

At least for the next week, they still work at the same job and she reports to him. He told me that he would only discuss work with her and that he "ended it" yesterday. He is looking for a new job and she has been offered a job that she says she is going to take. Should we wait to start recovery efforts until after their contact with each other has been completely eliminated?
And I haven't said this yet, but thank you, thank you, thank you all for your help. You feel like my life boat right now.
That is a great first step, bjc! there isn't much you can do until the affair is ended* but you can read up on this program and start putting things into place. I would get the truth telling about your affair out of the way NOW so you can move onto next steps.

Getting this one OW out of the way does not resolve the basic problem, which is the environment in which he works. Unless this changes, the affairs won't stop. He clearly is a loose cannon in an office setting. I would be brainstorming for occupations/businesses where he can be held accountable throughout the day. One such solution might be to go into business together so you are together 24/7.

If he just gets another job in another law office, then you are facing more of the same, I assure you.

*the affair is not over until all contact has ended. Changing the name of an affair to business contact will be of no use
Can you describe the conversation with the OW's husband? What was his reaction?
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Getting this one OW out of the way does not resolve the basic problem, which is the environment in which he works. Unless this changes, the affairs won't stop. He clearly is a loose cannon in an office setting. I would be brainstorming for occupations/businesses where he can be held accountable throughout the day. One such solution might be to go into business together so you are together 24/7.
On that subject:

I worry that even if he goes into an all-male law practice he will have one-to-one access to women. Being a lawyer practicing family or general law puts people into positions where they can have one-to-one, confidential, long-term intimate conversations with people of the opposite sex.

In the same way that we would say that a male pastor must not counsel women in his congregation without his wife present, and people should not see counsellors of the opposite sex, I would say that certain kinds of law are too dangerous for for flirty, Lothario men to practice.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
That is a great first step, bjc! there isn't much you can do until the affair is ended* but you can read up on this program and start putting things into place. I would get the truth telling about your affair out of the way NOW so you can move onto next steps.

Getting this one OW out of the way does not resolve the basic problem, which is the environment in which he works. Unless this changes, the affairs won't stop. He clearly is a loose cannon in an office setting. I would be brainstorming for occupations/businesses where he can be held accountable throughout the day. One such solution might be to go into business together so you are together 24/7.

If he just gets another job in another law office, then you are facing more of the same, I assure you.

*the affair is not over until all contact has ended. Changing the name of an affair to business contact will be of no use

I agree with you regarding his job. One of the issues that he had with my exposure to the OW's H is that I just "made the decision unilaterally." I did and I own that and I'm not sorry. But shouldn't he get to be involved with the decisions regarding his career? How can I demand that he change careers? There is no legal job where he is not going to come into contact with women. And this is what we went to school for and it's all we know.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Can you describe the conversation with the OW's husband? What was his reaction?

I didn't have his phone number or a way to contact him, other than through FB, so I sent him a FB message. I know that is a crappy way to find out this information, but I guess I figured that no one wants to find out about an affair the way that they do. I simply told him that I was truly sorry to have to write this message, but that I learned that my H and his W had been having an affair. I told him that I read the texts, that they were meeting at work and at bars after hours, that it was physical in nature, and that they had met as recently as last Wednesday. I told him that I have made the decision to try and save my marriage and that I do not believe that can happen if my H and his W continue to be in contact. That I have asked my H to leave his job, but that if his W has the opportunity to do it first, she should. And, of course, I apologized for telling him if he was hearing it for the first time.

I never heard anything back from him, but apparently he told his W that he received a message from me. She called my H, frantic, wanting to know what was in the message. My H claims that he told her he didn't know and that he couldn't help her with it because he had his own stuff to deal with, but I don't believe that he really said that. When I asked him if he talked to her, he started to lie and say that he had not, but then he confessed that she had texted him, asking him to call her, and that he had called her when I left to go get my kids.
Originally Posted by SugarCane
[quote=MelodyLane]On that subject:

I worry that even if he goes into an all-male law practice he will have one-to-one access to women. Being a lawyer practicing family or general law puts people into positions where they can have one-to-one, confidential, long-term intimate conversations with people of the opposite sex.

In the same way that we would say that a male pastor must not counsel women in his congregation without his wife present, and people should not see counsellors of the opposite sex, I would say that certain kinds of law are too dangerous for for flirty, Lothario men to practice.

He works in government, administrative law. He does not see individual clients....the state we live in is his client. The women he comes in contact with are secretaries, paralegals, or other female attorneys. That is an unavoidable thing in this profession. I can't think of a single law office or government agency that doesn't have a woman working in it.
Originally Posted by brokenjc
I agree with you regarding his job. One of the issues that he had with my exposure to the OW's H is that I just "made the decision unilaterally." I did and I own that and I'm not sorry. But shouldn't he get to be involved with the decisions regarding his career? How can I demand that he change careers? There is no legal job where he is not going to come into contact with women. And this is what we went to school for and it's all we know.

Yes and no, the decision should be made together, HOWEVER, if he wants to remain married to you, he doesn't have a choice about finding a career where you are protected. This is a DEAL BREAKER because he has a history of not being able to control himself in the workplace.

And he will find himself JOBLESS if his employer finds out that he exploits direct reports. So it is dangerous to his career and his marriage for him to have a supervisory position. He is a loose cannon who is on a path to blow himself up.

Finding a job where you are completely protected is part and parcel of extraordinary precautions.

You and your H need to put your heads together and brainstorm new careers that will ENSURE that he can be held accountable 24/7.
Originally Posted by brokenjc
He works in government, administrative law. He does not see individual clients....the state we live in is his client. The women he comes in contact with are secretaries, paralegals, or other female attorneys. That is an unavoidable thing in this profession. I can't think of a single law office or government agency that doesn't have a woman working in it.

He is a smart guy. He will have to figure it out. He is on a path to career ruination right now and might end up selling door to door burglar alarms if he doesn't change his career quickly.

I work at a Fortune 500 company and know of a certain Sr Vice President who was caught having an affair with a female subordinate. When discovered he was escorted off the premises by an armed security guard. The last I knew, he was selling door to door ADT home alarm systems. <-----that is your husbands future.
Originally Posted by brokenjc
[
I never heard anything back from him, but apparently he told his W that he received a message from me.

I would make sure you SPEAK to him personally because OW are NOTORIOUS for intercepting emails, facebook messages. They are usually WATCHING for such exposures. I would not say anything to your husband, but quietly contact this guy in person or on phone.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Yes and no, the decision should be made together, HOWEVER, if he wants to remain married to you, he doesn't have a choice about finding a career where you are protected. This is a DEAL BREAKER because he has a history of not being able to control himself in the workplace. Finding a job where you are completely protected is part and parcel of extraordinary precautions. You and your H need to put your heads together and brainstorm new careers that will ENSURE that he can be held accountable 24/7.

He did this in his last job where he didn't supervise women. He was always complaining that the people he worked for were weird and that he was lonely and didn't have any friends. He befriended an admin assistant from another department and they would take breaks together, text each other all the time (including on holidays when we were with my family, which is when I told him that it was inappropriate). I guess that's why I'm worried. He'll do it with women in the workplace, whether or not they report to him (the reporting to him makes it worse, though, and right now....there are two that report to him. The OW and another single woman that he has poor boundaries with). He's going to need to find a job where he works with only males?
I know another upper middle management executive who was fired for a workplace affair. He delivers pizzas!!

What will happen to your husband when it is discovered he is exploiting his direct reports? Do you know there have been lawsuits WON when spouses sue the workplace because their marriage was wrecked by a workplace affair?

Your husband is playing Russian roulette with his career and it is only a matter of time before he self destructs.
Originally Posted by brokenjc
[ He's going to need to find a job where he works with only males?

You and your husband will need to figure it out. Did you read my suggestion about going into business together?
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by brokenjc
[ He's going to need to find a job where he works with only males?

You and your husband will need to figure it out. Did you read my suggestion about going into business together?

Yes, I did. And we will figure it out. I recognize that everything he has done has been a build-up to this current situation, where he was so reckless. And...again....I'm not just focusing on him. My OM lives out of town and without phone calls, texts or e-mails, I have no reason to be in contact with him. I have worked with males in my office for 12 years and have never, ever had an inappropriate relationship or boundary with any of them. So I'm thinking your suggestion is to address my issues as well?
Originally Posted by brokenjc
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by brokenjc
[ He's going to need to find a job where he works with only males?

You and your husband will need to figure it out. Did you read my suggestion about going into business together?

Yes, I did. And we will figure it out. I recognize that everything he has done has been a build-up to this current situation, where he was so reckless. And...again....I'm not just focusing on him. My OM lives out of town and without phone calls, texts or e-mails, I have no reason to be in contact with him. I have worked with males in my office for 12 years and have never, ever had an inappropriate relationship or boundary with any of them. So I'm thinking your suggestion is to address my issues as well?

Yes, you should both have extraordinary precautions in place to protect your marriage. Because you have both failed with your own set of boundaries.
Originally Posted by brokenjc
Yes, I did. And we will figure it out. I recognize that everything he has done has been a build-up to this current situation, where he was so reckless. And...again....I'm not just focusing on him. My OM lives out of town and without phone calls, texts or e-mails, I have no reason to be in contact with him. I have worked with males in my office for 12 years and have never, ever had an inappropriate relationship or boundary with any of them. So I'm thinking your suggestion is to address my issues as well?

Absolutely! But he is a serial cheater, so a more global approach is in order. Neither one of you, for example, should have friends of the opposite sex and it seems that is where you erred. The office is not a place of temptation for you, but it is for him. The goal is to eliminate the environment that made the affair <s> possible. With him, that is an office full of women, with you it was probably maintaining friends of the opposite sex. A serial cheater requires a more global approach.

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Absolutely! But he is a serial cheater, so a more global approach is in order. Neither one of you, for example, should have friends of the opposite sex and it seems that is where you erred. The office is not a place of temptation for you, but it is for him. The goal is to eliminate the environment that made the affair <s> possible. With him, that is an office full of women, with you it was probably maintaining friends of the opposite sex. A serial cheater requires a more global approach.

That's deeply concerning. I feel like I read that there was very little hope that a serial cheater could actually make a recovery in a marriage.
Originally Posted by brokenjc
That's deeply concerning. I feel like I read that there was very little hope that a serial cheater could actually make a recovery in a marriage.

They require more Extraordinary precautions to be in place but if Dr. Harley's methods are followed, the marriage can thrive.
I can think of a few posters who had serial cheating spouses that changed.
So, can I ask....how quickly is all of this suppose to be happening? I found out about my H's affair on Saturday. By yesterday, I had exposed to the OW's H, our family and our friends (both my H's affair, and my own). My H and I have had three or four conversations about the extent of our relationships, but we have not sat down and had "the" conversation....where we answer all of the outstanding questions with brutal truth and put the actual affair part to bed. I have downloaded SAA, which may answer many of these questions, but I'm just wondering if I'm frantically trying to do too much at once or if this kind of quick action is what's necessary?
Originally Posted by brokenjc
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Absolutely! But he is a serial cheater, so a more global approach is in order. Neither one of you, for example, should have friends of the opposite sex and it seems that is where you erred. The office is not a place of temptation for you, but it is for him. The goal is to eliminate the environment that made the affair <s> possible. With him, that is an office full of women, with you it was probably maintaining friends of the opposite sex. A serial cheater requires a more global approach.

That's deeply concerning. I feel like I read that there was very little hope that a serial cheater could actually make a recovery in a marriage.

What is even more difficult is a life of continued affairs. Many people choose to just leave the marriage. When you consider your options, you should know what it will take to recover your marriage and protect you from repeat affairs.

There is hope if he makes radical changes in his lifestyle to prevent a repeat. It means making his secret second life impossible. It is difficult but not impossible.

I just called the OW's H. He said he had no desire to talk to me and that he has already talked to his wife. I told him that I wanted to make sure that it was him that got my message....Not his wife. He said that he was the one who received it. I told him that I was not trying to interfere in his marriage, but was trying to take care of my own. He was angry and said I should just take care of my business. I think it's safe to say that he either does not believe me or his wife has convinced him that it was less than what it was.
Do you have some type of evidence you can send him? It wouldn't surprise me if she spun the story to him and denied the affair.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Do you have some type of evidence you can send him? It wouldn't surprise me if she spun the story to him and denied the affair.

No. I read about 2 days worth of my H's texts before he came back and caught me with his phone. He erased all of the texts, saying that he wanted me to discuss it with him directly. I knew that was crap at the time. He admitted that he and the OW made out many times and that he would sneak off to meet her, telling me that he had to go into work. He still maintains that he did not have sex with her, but I assume that he did. I'm sure that the OW told her husband that I just misunderstood the texts that I read. As soon as the OW's H answered the phone and I identified myself, he said "we do not need to go down this road...I've already talked to my wife."
Originally Posted by brokenjc
[ As soon as the OW's H answered the phone and I identified myself, he said "we do not need to go down this road...I've already talked to my wife."

That indicates to me that she got to him FIRST and spun the story, demonizing you as the crazy wife. I would shoot him a PM on facebook and just tell him what your husband has told you thus far. He can confirm all this with your husband if he wants. [you can back your husband into a corner on this and make him call the OWH in front of you] But I suspect your H called him for the OW and validated the crazy wife story.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by brokenjc
[ As soon as the OW's H answered the phone and I identified myself, he said "we do not need to go down this road...I've already talked to my wife."

That indicates to me that she got to him FIRST and spun the story, demonizing you as the crazy wife. I would shoot him a PM on facebook and just tell him what your husband has told you thus far. He can confirm all this with your husband if he wants. [you can back your husband into a corner on this and make him call the OWH in front of you] But I suspect your H called him for the OW and validated the crazy wife story.

Well, apparently after my call to the OW's H, the OW stormed into my H's office and said that she would not be able to take care of her stuff at home if I kept calling and harassing her husband. So the OW's H called her and told her about my call. And that's fine. It's their marriage to ruin and/or fix.... But my H is starting to think that I'm a vindictive, crazy maniac. He said he understands why I did what I did yesterday, but that calling the OW's H today is insane and that I have got to leave them alone. I just keep repeating, over and over again, that I don't care about them....I care about us. I did this for us. Is it enough that my H is willing to switch jobs? He said he would. The OW is apparently trying to get a new job, as well. I think if I keep pushing the issue of making sure the OW's H absolutely believes that this happened, my H is going to lose it and try to have me committed.
I guess I was RIGHT that the OW and your H have spun the story to her husband and he does not know the truth. The cheaters are in DAMAGE CONTROL!! grin Otherwise, why would they be having a full boat MELTDOWN and trying to make you out to be CRAZY?? WHY WOULD THEY CARE? rotflmao

I will tell you why: they are hiding the affair! They have unified and have lied to him about it.

Call your husband back and let him know that you intend on staying in touch with the OWH to ensure that he is fully apprised of the situation. Until all contact ends, he needs to be your ALLY.

You and the OWH need to stay in touch so you can compare notes and help each other kill the affair.

Did you send him the PM I suggested with your evidence of the affair?
The cheaters are in DAMAGE CONTROL MODE. That should tell you everything you need to know about his sincerity.
Send him a text and a PM telling him something like this [send this several ways so the OW does not intercept it ]:

Dear Joe, the hysteria coming from your wife and my husband about contacting you makes me very suspicious that you have been fed a line of bull about their affair.

I wonder if you are fully aware of their affair. My husband has admitted to having an affair with your wife for _____ months. I found their text messages on 3-20-14, which were very romantic and indicated they are having an affair. My husband does not deny this and is going to quit his job. According to him, your wife is quitting too. If you have been told a story different from this, I would appreciate it if you would call me at 200-800-2000 so we can compare notes. Their irrational reaction to my contacting you makes me think you have been told something else. I suggest that we align forces to keep them apart until they have left this job.

Thanks, brokennjc
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Send him a text and a PM telling him something like this [send this several ways so the OW does not intercept it ]:

Dear Joe, the hysteria coming from your wife and my husband about contacting you makes me very suspicious that you have been fed a line of bull about their affair.

I wonder if you are fully aware of their affair. My husband has admitted to having an affair with your wife for _____ months. I found their text messages on 3-20-14, which were very romantic and indicated they are having an affair. My husband does not deny this and is going to quit his job. According to him, your wife is quitting too. If you have been told a story different from this, I would appreciate it if you would call me at 200-800-2000 so we can compare notes. Their irrational reaction to my contacting you makes me think you have been told something else. I suggest that we align forces to keep them apart until they have left this job.

Thanks, brokennjc

I absolutely, positively get why this is a good idea. Last night, my H told me that he was not going to speak to her about anything having to do with anything outside of work. He said that he went into work, neither of them spoke, he stayed in his office with his door closed. He said that once I called the OW's H, and the OW went charging into his office, then they had to speak, which created the very situation I was trying to avoid. When my husband called me and was telling me that I "have to stop," I felt that I had already done everything that there was to do with the OW's H so I told my H that I would have no further contact with them (while at the same time maintaining that my H needs to care more about me making myself comfortable that this is ending and less about disrupting their lives). I have been with you all up until this point, but I think if I keep pushing this, it will be a giant disaster. For one thing, I will have lied to my H....saying I would not contact them again and then going back on it. For another..... he is not fighting the job change, the transparency or anything else....quite the contrary. As mad as he is at me for exposing, he also seems happy that I am fighting for this marriage, which is something that I have not done in a long, long time. I was the one that wanted a separation....I was the one that has kept my distance. Even as mad as my H was with me last night (and he was) we were affectionate with each other.... Again, something we haven't done in a long, long time. It feels like I shouldn't care what the OW's H does with this information. Like if he is refusing to believe it, then there is nothing I can do.
ok, you are not being rational and are allowing yourself to be gaslighed. Acting like YOU are the cause of their contact is lunacy. They work together, for God's sake. crazy It is ridiculous to assume they are not speaking to each other at work. That is just silly. If they had committed to not speak to each other, they would do that. But they are not going to do that.

THEY ONLY WANT YOU TO STOP CONTACTING THE OWH SO HE DOENS'T FIND OUT THE AFFAIR IS TRUE!!

Calling their communications "business contact" is ludicrous insanity because any contact at all is a resumption of the affair no matter how much lipstick you put on that pig.

The only reason your husband and his girlfriend would demand you don't contact her husband is if they are HIDING SOMETHING. Cheaters who are sincere would not CARE if you spoke to the other betrayed spouse..........UNLESS THEY WERE HIDING SOMETHING.

Originally Posted by brokenjc
For one thing, I will have lied to my H....saying I would not contact them again and then going back on it.

The only thing worse than a DUMB promise is keeping a dumb promise. You have absolutely NO REASON to "promise" such a thing. If the cheaters can be in contact every day, for what fathomable reason should you not be in touch with the other betrayed spouse?

Quote
For another..... he is not fighting the job change, the transparency or anything else....quite the contrary.

For another.......this is all empty talk that means nothing. It is only designed to shut you up long enough to take the affair further underground. Talk is cheap.
Originally Posted by brokenjc
[ It feels like I shouldn't care what the OW's H does with this information. Like if he is refusing to believe it, then there is nothing I can do.

You very much should CARE that he believes there is an affair so he can be your ally in killing this affair. Your H and his honey do not want him to know because they want to CONTINUE THEIR AFFAIR IN PEACE while they take their sweet time "looking for jobs" for the next 5 years.

YOU ARE BEING PLAYED!!
Originally Posted by brokenjc
[ He said that he went into work, neither of them spoke, he stayed in his office with his door closed. He said that once I called the OW's H, and the OW went charging into his office, then they had to speak, which created the very situation I was trying to avoid

Let me put this another way. You already KNEW they were in contact at work so this is not a surprise. You know and have accepted that he can't leave that job for 29 more days. It doesn't make sense to be upset that they are in contact at work when you already knew they were in contact.

Her coming into his office makes no earthly difference. crazy
Broken;
Melody is absolutely correct.

I bought my formerly WH's line that he and the OW would have business-only contact as necessary until he could get a transfer. He promised to report to me all and any contact they had, which was going to be "business-only"... And he did give me daily reports. Here's what happened:

The A was "off" for exactly one day. Within the HOUR that my (formerly) WH returned to the work environment, the A was back on, in full underground mode. Then, My (formerly) WH continued to give me daily reports as to the (business-only) meetings they had, sent me copies of all (business-only) correspondence, etc. What he was doing was lying to me all the time. And he kept telling me he hoped my trust in him was being restored...

And, surprise surprise, his transfer kept getting delayed, taking 5 months. Even after my (formerly) WH and I moved to another country for his new position, he and the OW continued to be in contact (non-business only!!)

I cannot tell you how much more painful going through a False Recovery is. Do not set yourself up for one. Kill the A dead now.
So is your suggestion that he quits his job today? She reports to him. She has to talk to him about work. I thought that was the whole purpose of the 30 days....because most people can't just up and quit a job with a day's notice. Even if I make every effort under the sun to make sure that the OW's H knows about this and believes it, it doesn't change the situation with the jobs. I'm not trying to delude myself or argue with you... I'm just trying to weigh the risk of contacting the OW's H again. Because the repercussions are going to be horrendous.
Originally Posted by brokenjc
So is your suggestion that he quits his job today? She reports to him. She has to talk to him about work. I thought that was the whole purpose of the 30 days....because most people can't just up and quit a job with a day's notice. Even if I make every effort under the sun to make sure that the OW's H knows about this and believes it, it doesn't change the situation with the jobs. I'm not trying to delude myself or argue with you... I'm just trying to weigh the risk of contacting the OW's H again. Because the repercussions are going to be horrendous.

There is no risk whatsoever in contacting the OWH. The *ONLY* risk is to the affair. The risk is if you DON'T contct him because the cheaters will be able to hide their affair. I didn't suggest you tell your H to quit his job today. I told you to contact the OWH, give him the full story and ask him to be your ally.


The ONLY repercussion will be to the AFFAIR. Don't delay. Send him that message!!
Send him this!!

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Send him a text and a PM telling him something like this [send this several ways so the OW does not intercept it ]:

Dear Joe, the hysteria coming from your wife and my husband about contacting you makes me very suspicious that you have been fed a line of bull about their affair.

I wonder if you are fully aware of their affair. My husband has admitted to having an affair with your wife for _____ months. I found their text messages on 3-20-14, which were very romantic and indicated they are having an affair. My husband does not deny this and is going to quit his job. According to him, your wife is quitting too. If you have been told a story different from this, I would appreciate it if you would call me at 200-800-2000 so we can compare notes. Their irrational reaction to my contacting you makes me think you have been told something else. I suggest that we align forces to keep them apart until they have left this job.

Thanks, brokennjc
Originally Posted by catwhit
Broken;
Melody is absolutely correct.

I bought my formerly WH's line that he and the OW would have business-only contact as necessary until he could get a transfer. I cannot tell you how much more painful going through a False Recovery is. Do not set yourself up for one. Kill the A dead now.

Can I ask you...how did your WH characterize the relationship with his OW? Because I feel like I was more deeply entrenched in my A....it was with someone that I loved and currently love. And still I know that I am going to be able to have no further contact with him. I know that my H shouldn't trust me when I say that, but I feel that it is true. So I'm just wondering....If my WH was far less entrenched in his A and is committed to letting it go and we've done all of these other steps and are doing all of these other steps....is it necessary to keep poking at the OW's H with a stick? I wish I would have put all of those details about the affair in the original message to the OW's H, but I thought it was overwhelming and all I had were the texts that my H erased.
Originally Posted by brokenjc
Originally Posted by catwhit
Broken;
Melody is absolutely correct.

I bought my formerly WH's line that he and the OW would have business-only contact as necessary until he could get a transfer. I cannot tell you how much more painful going through a False Recovery is. Do not set yourself up for one. Kill the A dead now.

Can I ask you...how did your WH characterize the relationship with his OW? Because I feel like I was more deeply entrenched in my A....it was with someone that I loved and currently love. And still I know that I am going to be able to have no further contact with him. I know that my H shouldn't trust me when I say that, but I feel that it is true. So I'm just wondering....If my WH was far less entrenched in his A and is committed to letting it go and we've done all of these other steps and are doing all of these other steps....is it necessary to keep poking at the OW's H with a stick? I wish I would have put all of those details about the affair in the original message to the OW's H, but I thought it was overwhelming and all I had were the texts that my H erased.

None of these details have any relevance. NONE. Please send the OWH the text I composed above. Don't allow the cheaters to manipulate and frighten you into silence.

You have no idea how "entrenched" your husband is because cheaters lie. He will tell you whatever he needs to tell you in order to shut you up. And it is working!!

Words mean nothing coming from a fogged out wayward. ACTIONS mean everything. And in your case, your H and his GF's actions say they are hiding an affair.

YOU are hanging on empty, worthless promises; I am going by actions.
Okay....this is my last question. The job transfer thing should be happening soon. Another agency has been trying to get the OW to go work there for a while. I knew this before I knew about the A. The OW has said that she has called the other agency to try and accept the position. Is there harm in waiting to see if it goes through (assuming it happens within 30 days) before sending that additional message to OW's H?
Originally Posted by brokenjc
Okay....this is my last question. The job transfer thing should be happening soon. Another agency has been trying to get the OW to go work there for a while. I knew this before I knew about the A. The OW has said that she has called the other agency to try and accept the position. Is there harm in waiting to see if it goes through (assuming it happens within 30 days) before sending that additional message to OW's H?

Yes, there is harm. And absolutely no fathomable good reason not to send that message to the OWH. If the OWH already "knows" about the affair, then she will have no objection.
And just think, if the OWH KNOWS about the affair he will be motivated to get his wife out of there ASAP.

As it is now, the cheaters have plenty of time to "look for jobs" and tell you they "are fixing to leave" and buy some more time. Even the dumbest wayward can drag things out for several months if not forever. He has 30 days to think of a new angle!
Please listen to Mel. Your WH is clearly gaslighting you (telling you anything to get you off his back). If OWH already knows about the A what is one more call or message going to do?

DON'T BE AFRAID. I know how tough this is and how much you think not making WH is a good idea but honestly its IRRELEVANT. I mean seriously, the man cheated on you and you are being gratious enough to consider giving him another chance, he is in no position to demand anything. He should be apologizing and doing any/everything you please after this atrocity.

You keep saying you don't want to upset things or mess things up but what you need to realize is what exactly will you mess up? A crummy marriage where your WH cheats on you? Stand up, take a stand and take control of this situation, you are the one with options not your WH.
Originally Posted by txstunnedman
Please listen to Mel. Your WH is clearly gaslighting you (telling you anything to get you off his back). If OWH already knows about the A what is one more call or message going to do?

DON'T BE AFRAID. I know how tough this is and how much you think not making WH is a good idea but honestly its IRRELEVANT. I mean seriously, the man cheated on you and you are being gratious enough to consider giving him another chance, he is in no position to demand anything. He should be apologizing and doing any/everything you please after this atrocity.

You keep saying you don't want to upset things or mess things up but what you need to realize is what exactly will you mess up? A crummy marriage where your WH cheats on you? Stand up, take a stand and take control of this situation, you are the one with options not your WH.

That's my problem....I think I could do all of this if I was just the BS. But I'm not. I was having an A at the same time so I feel like I'm in no position to call the shots.
Originally Posted by brokenjc
That's my problem....I think I could do all of this if I was just the BS. But I'm not. I was having an A at the same time so I feel like I'm in no position to call the shots.

Yes, you are in a position to save your marriage. Throwing your marriage away because you feel guilty makes no sense whatsoever. Who will that help? You just have to make the decision to do it.

Obviously, the OWH does not know the facts of the affair and has been gaslighted by your husband and his honeypie or they would not mind you contacting him. Their only hope is that you will go along with their little ruse. If he knows the truth - which you know he does not - they would have nothing to object TO.

just think, if the OWH knows the truth, he will be more motivated to demand she leave.
Mel is right on. You are being gaslighted. Also, OWH may decide to expose the whole thing himself anyway. OW may back him up by quitting and claiming "sexual harassment", which will then probably result in termination of your WH's job, and possibly a lawsuit with damages/settlement.

The first thing his office will do will be damage control, including going back and recalling interoffice communications, looking at travel records, looking at HER hours, talking with co-workers, etc. to investigate. Does he use state-issued communication devices or automobiles? Submit phone records for reimbursement? If she is his subordinate, this will not look good for him in any future legal position, unless he hangs his own shingle and he can't be trusted to do that.

Have you considered doing that together?

Even if... taking a financial hit will be far better for your marriage than allowing this to continue (which is also continuing to risk his standing in the legal community by trying to hide it.)

He should expose himself and let his office know he has put them in legal jeopardy. Attorneys look out for each other if the attorney in question steps forward on his own. His office would be more willing to "help" as opposed to being blindly hit with a sexual harassment suit.

By the way, are you still communicating with OM in any way?
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by brokenjc
That's my problem....I think I could do all of this if I was just the BS. But I'm not. I was having an A at the same time so I feel like I'm in no position to call the shots.

Yes, you are in a position to save your marriage. Throwing your marriage away because you feel guilty makes no sense whatsoever. Who will that help? You just have to make the decision to do it.

Obviously, the OWH does not know the facts of the affair and has been gaslighted by your husband and his honeypie or they would not mind you contacting him. Their only hope is that you will go along with their little ruse. If he knows the truth - which you know he does not - they would have nothing to object TO.

just think, if the OWH knows the truth, he will be more motivated to demand she leave.

What makes you think my WH is involved in it? Because he was angry at me for contacting the OW's H?
Originally Posted by princessmeggy
By the way, are you still communicating with OM in any way?

My communication with him had all but ended, until I found out about my WH's A. My OM lives in the same city as my family and we happened to be visiting my family when I found out about my WH's A. The night I found out, I went running to the OM. Today, I ended it. I didn't do it in the form of a letter, but I called the OM and told him that we could never talk again, that I was unfriending him from FB, and that I loved my H and was going to try and save my marriage.
Originally Posted by princessmeggy
Mel is right on. You are being gaslighted.

So here's my latest question... If the WS is absolutely not to be believed or trusted....what is the point in sitting down with them and asking all of the questions that you want about the A? I can ask for brutal honesty, but it sounds as if it's kind of a pointless endeavor if I can't trust that his answers are honest....
And, finally, should we be putting EPs in place, even though my WH is still working in the same office with the OW?
Originally Posted by brokenjc
And, finally, should we be putting EPs in place, even though my WH is still working in the same office with the OW?

The purpose of extraordinary precautions is to prevent another affair. That obviously can't happen if he works with his lover.
Originally Posted by brokenjc
Originally Posted by princessmeggy
By the way, are you still communicating with OM in any way?

My communication with him had all but ended, until I found out about my WH's A. My OM lives in the same city as my family and we happened to be visiting my family when I found out about my WH's A. The night I found out, I went running to the OM. Today, I ended it. I didn't do it in the form of a letter, but I called the OM and told him that we could never talk again, that I was unfriending him from FB, and that I loved my H and was going to try and save my marriage.

faint

Here we are trying to coach you to end your husbands affair and you were still in contact with your OWN OM the whole time!

Apparently, we are taking this all much more seriously than you. My time is way too valuable to be squandered that way. I wish you the best.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by brokenjc
Originally Posted by princessmeggy
By the way, are you still communicating with OM in any way?

My communication with him had all but ended, until I found out about my WH's A. My OM lives in the same city as my family and we happened to be visiting my family when I found out about my WH's A. The night I found out, I went running to the OM. Today, I ended it. I didn't do it in the form of a letter, but I called the OM and told him that we could never talk again, that I was unfriending him from FB, and that I loved my H and was going to try and save my marriage.


Here we are trying to coach you to end your husbands affair and you were still in contact with your OWN OM the whole time!

Apparently, we are taking this all much more seriously that you are. My time is way too valuable to be squandered that way. I wish you the best.

I am taking it seriously....I am reading SAA, I am pouring over the site.....But my WH and I did not get into this mess because we had a good understanding of our own motivations and behaviors. The insight that I have gained from you all in the last two days has been invaluable. I had not been in contact with the OM until Saturday, when I learned of my WH's A. Today, I let the OM know that I made a mistake contacting him and there would be no further contact. There is nothing that I'm wanting to implement with my WH that I'm not imposing on myself. But he's not on this site, so he can't expose me....I've had to expose myself. He doesn't know to ask me to send an "end it" letter....I'm having to do that myself. And I'm doing it because I want this to be successful. I apologize that you feel that I have wasted your time....I am not perfect and I am doing the best that I can in a complicated and difficult situation.
Originally Posted by brokenjc
I am not perfect and I am doing the best that I can in a complicated and difficult situation.


We are all 'not perfect' and we all have 'difficult and complicated situations'. The reason the posters are angry with you is that you have not been open and honest with us.

Start by telling your husband the truth about what YOU have been doing. and tell him what he needs to make you do. Lead from the front. Show him the 'end it' letter that he needs to make you write. Once you have done it, ask him to do likewise.
Originally Posted by brokenjc
[. I apologize that you feel that I have wasted your time....I am not perfect and I am doing the best that I can in a complicated and difficult situation.


Yes, you have wasted my time and have not been honest with the folks who are helping you. You LIED to us about the state of your own affair in the first post:

Originally Posted by brokenjc in first post
I ended things with the OM, but never told my husband the full extent of my relationship with the OM.

You lied to your husband and then came here and lied to us and aren't even embarrassed about it. If that is your "best" then you have more serious problems than this board can address. Look around you, we have so many people here who desperately need help and here we are wasting time with a cheater who is not the least bit serious.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by brokenjc
[. I apologize that you feel that I have wasted your time....I am not perfect and I am doing the best that I can in a complicated and difficult situation.


Yes, you have wasted my time and have not been honest with the folks who are helping you. You LIED to us about the state of your own affair in the first post:

Originally Posted by brokenjc in first post
I ended things with the OM, but never told my husband the full extent of my relationship with the OM.

You lied to your husband and then came here and lied to us and aren't even embarrassed about it. If that is your "best" then you have more serious problems than this board can address. Look around you, we have so many people here who desperately need help and here we are wasting time with a cheater who is not the least bit serious.

Am I embarrassed about my conduct and about lying? Absolutely. I'm horrified at the things that I've done. As I said, I had ended things with the OM and had had no contact with him until Saturday, when I found out about my WH's A. The poster asked when the last time I had contact with the OM was and I was trying to be honest. I didn't know about MB until yesterday. Everything that has been done has been done in the last 24 hours. Because I'm that desperate to save our marriage. When I exposed to the OW's H, I exposed myself to my friends and family and when I explained to my H why I did what I did with the OW's H, I explained that it was the reason I was exposing myself, as well. I asked you all about whether I should tell my WH about MB because I understood that I should not....so when I had these discussions with my WH about what needed to happen, I repeatedly told him that he needed to do the same with me.... that I needed to know about his A and he needed to know about mine. I am well aware that there is no point to any of this if I am going to lie to you all. The last 24 hours have sucked. I'm doing what I can to try and save this marriage...as doomed as it apparently is. And I apologize if I have been untruthful in my responses...that certainly was not my intent. I understand you not wanting to help me any further-I am grateful for your time over the last day.
I encourage you to consider contacting the MB Coaching Center. The link is on the main website.
They can help you and your husband develop Extraordinary Precautions and build a romantic love in your marriage using Dr. harley's methods.
Broken,

I think you, your H and OW need to take polygraphs.

Inform the OWH about the need to give his WW a polygraph.

Your WH needs to apologize to OWH too and offer his confession.

Report your WH to his superiors. Serial cheaters need to learn.

God Bless
Gamma
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