After reading all the post here and abroad I have come to the conclusion that the only way for me to get my Wife out of the fog is with the threat of divorce. Since at least December she has been engaged in an EA with some tool from California. It started, like always, as a harmless friendship but alas grew right in front of my eyes.

I have been stonewalled at nearly every avenue. No access to her phone, E-mail, facebook, nothing. I must admit that her fog is so dense that when I had her on the ropes about letting me see her phone she stated that she couldn't since she needed to trust me first. HUH? Yes, I am the one that needs to rebuild trust. This topic was further derailed with a spontaneous sex session from her part.

she has been sleeping on the couch since February, at first due to the age old "I Need to find myself" garbage, which it is, just plain old trash. The she sprains her ankle, not on purpose mind you, but has used the script of needing to elevate her ankle to allow for it to heal. Now a week or 2 makes sense, but she walks on it, frequently, goes to work on her feet Etc, so tell me why you can't sleep in the bed.

All attempts to get the truth have been stunted. If I revisit what we have talked about the story changes or I "Misheard" her even though my memory since D-Day has been hyper accurate in regards to her affair.

Usually people look at me and question what possible damage could this have caused, well for starters;

My Finances have taken a hit since she was the bill payer and I was (Am) the bread winner. The bills were ignored or disregarded since she made efforts to buy a phone, which I still haven't had access to yet.

my children were exposed to this since she used they're Ipod to text back and forth highly charged sexually explicit materials that my 2 eldest sons discovered since she did not delete or lock her messages from view. they also suggested that she gave the Ipod back to them when they first discovered the messages and brought them to her attention with the purpose of me discovering them.

for nearly 2 months I was emotionally assaulted for matters I had no idea that made her mad. Not soon after she professed her love for him and him for her and wanted a divorce. the was day 2 of me taking a week off from the household (Bad idea) so I could clear my head.

Since I was at the time on 2nd shift I began to notice certain things since D-Day. The children's bedrooms doors were closed, a unusual occurrence to be sure. Nothing was getting done and after my final week on 2nd shift I was told that one night she put the 4 children to bed at 5:30 pm as to spend phone time with him. Since this was confirmed by my eldest. both over the age of 10 I do not question the testimony.

Finally, after having enough of seeing her stay up to five in the AM to spend time with this guy, my children not getting the proper care or attention that they needed I returned home hell bent on getting her out of here. I told her I didn't love her, She was not my friend, I am finally quitting on you and I want a divorce to which all were answered with a non chalant "Okay".

However without going into details as to why I explained that if need be I will force her, legally, out of the house if need be since she refused to stop her affair, although the method of force needed may be a one way ticket to disaster and point of no return. She relented to a degree and after emotionally breaking down agreed to "Ween" herself from this guys emotional attachment.

Although it seemed to be working she appears to have now entered the cake eating stage. She claims he is just a friend now and that they both realized their feelings were misplaced. This coupled with her story revisions as well as her admitting to being sexually turned on by him still do not convince my wife that he is a threat and big problem for me. And he has also, however exact the details are I do not know, invited her out for a visit with his intentions oh so obvious. she has however declined.

Lets starts with this for now. Trust me, there is lots more to talk about. I need a spark. I can't explain it but I just do.

Are you married?

Is the OM married? Does he have a facebook page?

He's not married, and yes he has a facebook page. In fact I got bounced from her friends list while she has him hidden on hers. But she is visible on his. I got kicked after I started to question her posts at the time. THen came her profile pictures which shows her all done up and looking good.

Are YOU married?

And can you make a copy of all his contacts on facebook?

Oh sorry about that. Yes, 13 years this August.

I suppose I can make a screen shot of his friends list if need be. But then what?

Then you expose.

Who is this OM? How does she know him?

Go read the thread on exposure in the link in my signature. I would expose the affair wide and far and run this dirtbag off.

Have you read these? Read the Exposure 101 thread?
Start Here First-SAA

With the exception of a mass Facebook bomb her Family already knows. Quietly I have their support with some even calling to offer support. For him though I do not know what to do that would be affective. I have his mothers phone number from the phone book but would it actually do any good?

Yes expose to his mother and father and any siblings.

Does he have a GF?

How does your WW know OM?

Her attempts at reconciliation are more akin to rug sweeping/ Trickle truth, no access, no closure. She doesn't even mention the Marriage counselor any more either. Hell, she hasn't even sought out IC as she said she needed to do for depression issues.

I believe he is single. They met online. With some sessions clocking in at 10 hours a shot, From when I left for work to when I got home.

Online, through an online game? A chat room? Doing what?

Have you run a background check to find out if he's married? Why does his Facebook page say?

Don't listen to her Fog Babble. Just worry about killing the affair.

AN online game that was voice enabled so the barrier of typing was not present.

Okay you need to find out everything about this slimeball so you can expose properly.

Have you ran a background check on him?

SHe claims it is over yet refuses to go NC.

I would not be quiet about it. Expose it everywhere loudly and ask them all to contazct her for support.


I would expose to his family and married friends on facebook in addition to calling his mother. Do you know what his occupation is? Does he play this game at work?

And I would suggest cancelling your internet service.

If you expose to his facebook contacts you will likely discover that he has a girlfriend and that he is pursuing other women.

Although I am not against the idea I do not believe he has one. the reason being is that he made his available free time run in parallel to hers. Still it is worth a shot.

I must also apologize in advance as a lot of the details regarding this will not be in order. Right now on the surface you would say we are in the reconciliation phase however several red flags are present.

When I as for the details at to what they were talking about I get the usual trickle truth but since I have been very attentive to her statements I have been able to remember everything to the slightest details.

using this when topics or particular details are revisited the story is revised in a manner to which she makes it out to be that he is nothing more than just a friend. It was, as she put it, a overzealous reaction to their feelings or misperception.

Naturally I do not buy it but would try to if say I had access to her cell phone or other mediums. When I backed off for a few weeks and brought up my feelings, which clearly aggravate her depending on my delivery of them, I sprung the question of letting me see her phone so I could validate, or more so have trust in her word. What I got was resistance and BS rationale. She claimed she needed to trust me, which makes absolutely no sense and said what if I do something stupid like call him.....

I answered that he hangs up, whoop-dee-doo, and then shortly after was completely derailed by physical intimacy by her initiation.

That's why we believe the affair is still on.

Get your spyware in place and prepare to expose.

Her not wanting to write a NC Letter is a huge red flag. She will have to change all her contact information and get rid of the internet and get a dumb phone.

The affair is still on and so until you kill the affair (with exposure) she will continue with her wayward babble.

Find out who this slimeball is and get ready to blow up his game.

First of all you are not in reconciliation, your WW is in an active A.

Second of all, why would you agree to any contact at all with the OM if she clearly has feelings for him and wanted to leave you for him. 'Weening' off the OM is ridiculous, you are her H and should be the only man in her life. You are/should be more important than any friend or family member. A friend online should not disrupt your M. If you are uncomfortable with her friend then she should end the friendship, if she in uncomfortable with any of your frineds you should end the friendhsip.

Now, I know she is in an A and she won't understand logic but the logic is for you. NC is essential and honestly should be the only thing acceptable to you. Now get to snooping, put a keylogger on your computer and cancel the phone if you she wont let you see it if its in your name, simple.

Lastly and most importantly, EXPOSE. Expose to OM's family ask them to keep OM away from your wife as you are trying to save your marriage. Ask your famliy and friends that have influence on your W to use their influence to help save your M.

I know who he is, and for all thing considered I have the plans in place to unleash hell at a moments notice.

But....

I seem to be dealing with a wife who is intertwining both her needs and agenda's. For example, a lot of the things we have talked about that involves her personal struggles have never been brought out before. Although it is extremely slow in drawing it out it is light years in comparison to what she would accept about herself as a person, wife and mother.

But...

During these feel good conversations is the intertwining of her reinforced assertion that her and his feelings were not true and misdiagnosed as "love" and that she found a friend in the end. When questioned about certain aspects about their "Friendship" the story changes constantly. During the first few weeks of how should we say, the breaking point, she made it clear that she would need to get to the point to let him go, but the expectation was clear, he is to go.

Her being tired, withdrawn and overall moody were the withdrawal signs I have read about and since she was forbidden from spending online tie with him or calling him while my children were awake or if I was home left little time for chit chat between the 2 of them. Of course, there is always her job to allow for communication, which makes me need to get a VAR ASAP.

ABout 2 weeks after the bomb, not D-Day mind you, I saw her carrying around a book to which she would bring to work. Naturally I noticed it and after she left it in the van I read it. The contents were describing their frustration at the distance and the situation as well as perhaps her admiration about him working more, note he was virtually unemployed during the height of their emotional affair. SHe also noted how he says he loves her and says it first, with the "We will see" to close the writing.

When asked if he ever told her that he loved her she said no, I asked again and I got the same answer. So I got the evidence and presented it to her. Her face told it all and I got the excuse that it was her way of writing herself out of her affair.

This is just an example of the problem. But when I challenged her to rugsweeping she wrote a very angry letter to me but threw it away which, after some careful angular lighting was able to read the impression left on the under page of the note pad/ She was mad at my feelings of her rugsweeping and equally mad about being perceived as fake.

So is it normal for wayward Wives to exhibit this behavior? I mean, she still wants him as a friend, assures it was nothing real, but refuses to go NC and gets pissed when I say that her efforts are not good enough?

It is called Fog-babble. She is trying to justify communication with him because she doesn't want to end the A. It is still ongoing.

There is no excuse for her to keep any contact at all with him. What are you worried about? Her leaving?

I had the same fear but you need to get yourself to understand, is this what you want in a Marriage? DO you want a wife that lies to you, gets emotional needs met from another man and continue to have the feeling it gives you (that the world is laughing at you and sees you as a joke). I know the feelings very well and you don't want that in your life so don't let her pressure you or convince you to do things her way, she is addicted to him. She is like a drug addict or alcoholic telling loved ones she can quit on her own and can do it her way....it doesn't work.

She i still emotionally involved with him. She is pushing your buttons to throw you off the scent.

What are you doing that would make you into a more desirable option fir yourself?

What Plan A practices are you continuing to make?

Have you discovered and eliminated any Love Busters on your end?

LTL

Well I changed my shift from second to first to allow for more family time. Been open and available for discussion, my undivided attention is hers where needed.

On only a few occasion during tense moments have any busters been used.

What I am waiting for is the next piece of evidence, which is why I need a VAR. She does not use the home CPU and guars the phone like the grail. Unless I steal the phone and have it hacked I will never get it at this point.

I agree with you all about it continuing still, since this is not the first time I have dealt with this. back in 2007 she had an emotional affair with her ex boy toy and I do believe it bcamee a PA at least once, more on that later.

Would dropping the big D snap her out of it at this point? I mean, I do not want to do it without the last bit of proof.

Only file for a Divorce if you want the Divorce, or once you are emotionally spent and give up.

You should have consultations to find out your rights though if things head in that direction.

LTL

I do not want to file for Divorce however I have not been able to attain the shock value or direct intolerance that I need to make her understand.

I have for the most part performed plan A to a tee. I just can't get her to understand that I cannot ever accept this idiot as just her friend.

I am more so angered by what my children were exposed to during all of this. She used my 11 year old sons ipod to start texting him and the content her and him were talking about were well over the top for what a child should be exposed to in terms of sexual content.

it was also told to me by both of my eldest sons that when they discovered the messages and told her about them she then in turn gave the ipod back without deleting them with the intention of having me find them.

She put them to bed at 5:30 pm one night since she was being disturbed by them and would barricade herself into our room while I was at work to ensure privacy. I left for a week just after valentines day and 7 days later this place was a dump. she spent all her time and energy online or on the phone with him.

I am grateful to tell people this as I feel paralyzed by indecision. How, how do I make her see the realiation and relent to her behavior or acknowledge its effect on me. I will admit that it has been peaceful and all but with the lack of openness among her "Private" area's of life I will not be able to trust her as well as her story revisions about what happened between him and her.

If he lived nearby they would have slept together, something she admitted too wanting to do, albeit for a supposed brief time. She related this desire to her chemical reaction's from his attention.

And I haven't even touched off about her previous emotional, possible PA, from years ago.

If you know who the OM is why haven't you exposed?

Ok, I called the OM's mom and sent a FB message to his Step-Mother. When my wife, who still claims that it is over and haven't spoken in a month or so, got the heads up from him she became furious, which led me to the "The angrier the WS the hard you hit the Target" saying about exposure.

During a little chat afterward this morning, which I had little time for as I needed to go to work, she used the words immature, ridiculous and various other put downs to boot.

Ok, I am nervous as hell, what's the follow up, keep going, then drop a Facebook post bomb to all of our mutual friends? I almost did this last night.

My god she was pissed...And I am still blocked out of everything BTW, no access What so ever. And she also likes to remind me that since this did not go physical it is not a "real" affair and therefor my feeling's are oversensitive and unjust. I don't think so.

You need to finish the exposures or all of your efforts will be for naught. The goal is to run the OM off and kill the affair. Expose to everyone today. Expose to his FB friends, your wife's family and friends, and any children over 4.

Are you using the talking points from my exposure thread? Are you giving the OM's full name and asking your family for support?

Don't stop! That is tantamount to bringing a pea shooter to a gun fight. You will just get your *** shot off!!

Finish your exposures TODAY and ask your wife to stop communicating with this man. Ask her to give you her cell phone and the password so you can validate that contact has ended. She should give you access to everything.

When you are done with your exposures, you should confront the OM and tell him that you will fight for your marriage and he needs to never communicate with your wife again.

Ok, I am anxious but not afraid to go forward. Now I am not talking myself out of this by saying, but if per se she leaves, with out the kids, is this normal?

As for reading your 101 thread I have been perusing this place for months now and finally have been able to get the courage to do what is needed. In fact, I have been desperately trying to read the thread by this so called Wheelspinning you mentioned in an assault the ambush thread which has been slowly providing motivations and you are right. Men are too often afraid to provoke their wives into conflict.

Please tell me I am not overreacting to her EA, When she starts to bombard me with BS I start to doubt my feelings.

This is hard, I have no shame in saying so either.

WE understand completely! We were all anxious too. But the difference between those that make it and those that don't is the ability to act DESPITE the anxiety. You have a very short window that is closing as we speak. It is very important to get all of your exposures NOW or they will have a trickle effect. You need a tsunami effect.


We would tell you if you were overreacting. You are questioning yourself because you have been gaslighted by your wife. We are objective observers who understand your situation and have been through this.

Please get your exposures done TODAY!

I will, I hope to god that people around here are available later this evening when the Sh1T hits the fan, I already have the shakes just thinking about it and I am going to need alot of guidance cause I have never done anything like this before.

But Dr. Harley was right, the only logical answer for her level of anger is in fact that it is not over, not yet it isn't!!

Just keep going, my friend, and don't let up!! It is hard but you can't let fear be your guide.

When your wife wakes up from the fog, she will thank you for standing up for you marriage.

You're doing the right thing.

When will you be finishing it up?

Did it work for you as you expected?

This afternoon after work while she is at work, which is good as I do not think I could do it with her in the house.

I encourage you to post him on www.cheaterville.com and www.playerblock.com.
tell your story and attach a piece of proof, if available.

Cheaters hate internet exposure and it usually causes a lot of drama in the affair

Joker;

The ONLY regrets posters here ever have about exposure is either:

1/ They didn't expose to EVERYBODY at once (Tsunami effect),

OR

2/ They wish they had exposed sooner.


You are on the right track. Keep going. We are here to support you.

Ok update time. I got home from work today to which I found the following;

One of our Van's cleaned right out, a lot but not all of her stuff packed, new clothes being washed with the tags still on them. the OM's FB page removed entirely and she removed him as a friend from another social circle.

SHe apparently called her mother so I called her stepfather to get a feel. When I asked him if she asked to move in with them he kinda clammed up, maybe, but did mention that she told her mother that I called the other mans mother, to which has drawn her Ire as I mentioned before.

Also, My 11 year old Son claims he heard a voice Message from the OM saying "Hey Baby" and that she may have mentioned moving out.

Guys and Gals, I am really freaking out right now. That paralysis feeling is taking over.

She claims she was merely cleaning up to take out her anger. Dam it I am really stressed. I think it could be labeled as panic.

Have you done the exposure to all of hers and your key friends and family members like you stated you would do as soon as you got home from work?

Take Control of what YOU can do. Put your anxiety and adrenaline rush to good practical use right now.

LTL

You need to STICK TO THE PLAN. Stick to your plan and finish your exposures. the goal is to kill the affair. If you stop before the affair is killed, then it will rise again and kill YOUR MARRIAGE.

Did you expose to her mother and stepfather?

I had it copied and pasted into the damn box, I just froze.

Yes they know already, all the family in the immediate area know, most won't get actively involved.

They know WHAT?? And who told them?

I am going to scream the next time some scardy BS tell me "they all know" when exposure is suggested to friends and family and then we find out that all they know are the lies told by the WS.

Did you ASK THEM to get involved? What were your EXACT WORDS?

No I told them what was going on, Her Step Brother, Her mother, Her Father, Her Step Father, Her Grandma, and her aunts called me offering support. The only remaining people who do not know is the mutual friends and in law family members who reside out of state. My eldest sons know as well.

In fact Our oldest son we had together is full of resentment to her behavior and knows far more that I realized.

Nobody seems to take an Emotional Affair serious or offers unofficial support which leaves it all on my shoulders.

But yes, they all know the details and that I want to work things out. All so far have made statements about always being family no matter what..Blood though is always thicker than water.

My exact words were "She's having an online emotional affair and said at one point she wanted out"

Does he know everything about her affair? Because you know he should be told, right?


I saw how you described it and I would have dismissed it too. It seemed almost minimized. Which sounds more realistic:

"my wife is having an affair with some guy named Joe Scumbag who lives in crapwit, Ohio. Can you please help?"

"Sally is having an online emotional affair with some guy on the internet."


Hopefully that means they CARE enough about her to help her in her time of need. I have known people who used that as an excuse to enable bad behavior beccuase they don't care.

Are you finishing your exposures now? You need to get this wrapped up TONIGHT. Tell your other son and tell anyone else that remains.

Post the OM on www.cheaterville.com and www.playerblock.com.
Expose to his family and friends using an exposure letter in MelodyLane signature EXPOSURE 101.
Include a link to the cheaterville posting in your exposure emails.

Be detailed in the exposure, sign your name to it and attach some proof if available

As I detailed in a previous post My wife was engaged in an EA, a deep one at that, with a guy she met online thru a game. This was painful as it came completely out of left field, I too was friends with this individual and just the sheer malice and ferocity behind the deception, which wasn't really hidden.

For 2 months I was emotionally attacked, psychologically taxed to the limit and just completely drained. After staying at a friends for a while I was forced to return due to the unlivable conditions our children were exposed to as well as her damaging behavior I.E; Putting the children to bed early, not showering them for 4 out of the six days I was gone, staying up till 5 AM online with the OM while using voice chat with extremely inappropriate sexual content spoken aloud with our children's bedroom just down a hall. Food refuse, wrappers and dirty dishes everywhere as well as every dish item (Nearly) dirty and piled up. Obviously her energy and enthusiasm was focused elsewhere.

Upon returning home and after detaching from her influence and feeling I made it clear that although I cannot control what she does I can control where it happens and proceeded to express me wanting her out of the home. She said no of course, however I can get her out if need be.

We have been married 12 yr's this August and during that time we have had my son from a previous relationship live with us nearly %100 of the time since his birth mother abandoned him. As time went on my Wife began to increase her intolerance toward him for normal child infractions or outbursts to outright abuse to the point that he called DCF-CPS twice on her and eventually even felt suicidal. With no experience and no intervention from her family I made the poor decision to rug sweep the matter after addressing the immediate problem, akin to using a temp bandaid, and hoped that she would wake up and get the counseling she needs.

this did not happen of course so I was forced to try to persuade her into becoming a friendlier person. This also did not happen, instead she made it clear that HE was the one that needed to try to heal things as she thought she was the victim. I can't make this up. The abuse included emotional, physical, social and mental. When I left the house during this recent affair I took him with me and he know to this day resides at HER biological Fathers house, a suggestion made by Him I might add as he was the only one who is not afraid of telling her she is wrong.

Now back to asking her to leave, She made it clear I'd have to fight to get her out nonetheless and with the VOR (Yes, I understand the laws regarding VAR's in CT) that clearly documents her assaulting him verbally and emotionally as well as making out meal for all four children for dinner. This was due to her spending maximum time online with him vs. taking care of our children properly.

With Our bio eldest standing firm about being put to bed at an unreasonably early hour she then began to break down and cry, promise to stop and then threaten suicide by reaching for a box cutter on the floor. I stopped her but, yet again, did not call the authorities. After a tense moment she lamented her lack of feeling alive and her need for this affair, which thankfully did not go physical (Online, 3000 miles away, %99.9999999 sure, although never say never). She also expressed some regret at what happened and her "Wanting" to bond with me. Although I felt a sense of bravery I did not demand her hand over all materials and passwords then and there. this was a mistake but between being elated at finally making the "In your face and there's nothing your going to do about it" aspect end I also was completely drained. She also claimed sh'ed break it off tomorrow.

I came back tomorrow and she had a detailed summary of something called reactive depression disorder, detailing the symptoms, the subsequent effects and other important information regarding. After talking for an hour or so I yet again failed to take control, even ceding to the idea that her contact with him be at the barest minimum (Me not home nor the children home as well) as well as trying to fix her mental health.

So I did, I swallowed my resentment, anger, pride and whatever else that may apply. Tried marriage counseling, kept the pressure on her for what was appropriate and healthy behavior towards me and the kids. Exposure! It might have worked had her family not been so apathetic or image oriented. I begged and pleaded for help, provided details to no avail.

So months roll by and finally, after saying all this time that I needed closure and clarity due to my imagination running wild I finally got to see the texts between him and her!

It appears that they never did meet, Made no plans for living arrangements, he was given no money nor did she receive any, she may have possibly made a sexting video for him giving his choice of words requesting one and her choice of words for her response. She did disrespect our MC sessions, took pride in making me paranoid, became annoyed at her friend disagreeing with her behavior (to which they both thought was F$%ked up) and both expressed their confusion about why I was angry and what was causing it. Yes, they felt validated in their actions and offended by my feelings. She also made a few sexual type comments (Most comments of this nature were captured on our sons IPOD, which I still have in possession)and her telling him about a dream about boarding a plane and him calling it off, "I love you's" ad nauseium, and little things that did not sit well.

This differs from her telling me that she and him came to their wits and slowly backed off from their "Misguided feelings". No, The affair died off as he became busy with work (A fault I had but she could not overlook) and my intervention by being around at night.

SO much more to say, but in a nutshell she has shown zero remorse, no attempt to fix the damage done to our children, especially to my eldest son or to me. Puts zero effort in the repair process or generally to boot and spends exuberant amount of time playing that damn online game. Nearly 700 hours. When I press to talk I have been called a crybaby B!tch, a smothering whiner, a lesbian and this last argument, which was alcohol influenced, she et me know that I just got home one night after she masturbated to him on the phone and how she enjoyed having sex with him in her head and how I made her feel so worthless in life, like all before me did.

Conveniently she showed me the texts the same week she took vacation from work, a fact I did not know, got a storage shed for her belongings (Due to her not knowing how I'd react to the texts and thinking I'd throw her out)after I caught her lying about donating the items to a clothing charity, then admitted to having the remainder of the week off. She is also stating how furious she is with me about not releasing the evidence to her (which by now I have gathered quite the amount, including info on an older EA)and that this is creating a wedge between me and her. All efforts to convince her that my actions are reactionary and influenced by her behavior fall on deaf ears.

Is it time to throw in the towel? I met for the most part and best I could plan A. Tied to fill emotional needs, no negative comments or demanding judgment's. provide safety and a loving environment. But after realizing that she did not choose me but rather I became the leftovers, plan B, the backup......

People over at TAM say to hit her with divorce papers as a way of challenging her to change her ways. Is this the only way?

I have combined your threads so others will fully understand your situation & be able to read what advice you have already received.

Please try to stick to one thread.

Have you exposed the affair to everyone that previous posters suggested?

Do that. Then the "Evidence" will not have to remain hidden. Everyone should share in the knowledge that is the truth.

LTL

Well, My bride has indicated that all the years of resentment and past actions have taken their toll. She is also angry that I will not hand over the evidence of the affair.

I am about to give up. Am I doing something wrong? Looks that way. Anyone got a time machine? Anyway, she won't open up and become transparent.....

Lonely, that's all I can say about it. I feel so alone.

Has there been contact between her and OM?

I don't know for sure, but I get the feeling that she might simply be waiting it out to make herself free for him. For whatever LB's I have worked on more conveniently pop up. Also, she will not go full transparent.

I am currently going to do a facebook bomb of exposure, I need some support cause I am emotional and scared and lots of other things...

Trickle exposure isn't recommended.

Haven't you already exposed to key members of her family? Why don't you have spyware on her devices?

If you have a way of doing so that does not involve getting access to the phone I am all ears. Like I said, no willingness to go transparent and not effort for UA or any real together time.

Is this a lost cause?

It's a lost cause if she's still in contact with the OM. What about getting her phone while she sleeps?

Her phone is coded, cannot bypass on the sly without her knowing it. I honestly do not know if I can take the stress anymore. I mean, she kept him as a FB contact for the longest time to piss me off since she was so "Angry" with me and with the intention of having him around to talk to if me and her fell apart. No transparency, or responsibility for her actions and inactions in regards to our family.

When I try to explain my thoughts on a subject regarding her concerns and complaints they are dismissed as being untrue or unacceptable. I have made sure, and I mean made sure, to communicate constructively, eliminate the love busters, try to focus on her apparent EN's, but as I said whenever I try to point this out when she claims that I am not trying she erupts into a self beat em up mode and says how horrible of a person she is!!! No middle ground.

Key example, Long ago she mentioned that she wanted to go to college for obvious purposes and I made the statement of saying that I don't know how I can help you except for going to work (To finance her need) and watch the children ( To provide child care). For whatever reason she took this as me rejecting her need for this. Ok, fast forward about 8 years and the opportunity arose again except this time I used what I had learned and encouraged her to sign up for classes with as much enthusiasm and positive energy as possible. The result, well, she constantly procrastinated in getting to the school, rescheduled constantly until she just gave up on her own accord. All encouragement on my part was rejected as being to "In her face".

This year after her EA it was identified as a EN (Self fulfillment) for not having a career. Efforts were made by me to get her the courses she needed to pursue this endeavor. Although she started the classes, bought all the support materials as well she soon abandoned the schooling without even talking to me or telling me about it.

This is just one highlight of malcontent and frustration on my part.

Sir, I don't think you exposed the affair as you were told to months ago.
Did you post the OM on www.cheaterville.com and www.playerblock.com?
Did you contact the OM parents and ask them to help end the affair?
Who did you expose to?

exposure included the om's mother and step-mother
her mother, step father and real father, step brother, sister, 2 aunts and her grandmother.

the net result is either neutrality or non involvement with quiet support.

our eldest sons know what's going on with our eldest together being able to freely recognize the problems originating from her. I still have not been given access to anything and thrown bones to chew on. She read off the texts with me over her shoulder to validate and it appears that the relationship died out or simply went deep underground. A VAR placed strategically confirmed the lack of calls while she was away from the home, no evidence.

Fights between us start with a complaint or concern that I make which soon erupts into full blown fights. When I asked why she kept him as a FB contact it was with the intention of making me angry and keeping him available to contact in case we fell apart. This is self defeating is it not? I mean one of the sources of our, my, marital, problem was from her inaction/action regarding a matter She knew I couldn't stand and then would use that Stress" as an excuse to call him, eventually, IF we fell apart?!!!!!

All efforts to connect are near futile, and as for UA, there is nothing more that I can do. I reduced my work load, eliminated LB'S as much as practical and asked her to find a job with more appealing hours for our family dynamic, which were not even explored past the online search phase. Thus we work alternate shifts bareley able to even see each other let alone spend quality time together. Yes, I know that the tally of 15 hours is not really included but engagement in daily activities would be helpful and seeming how work place affairs start in busy environments it was better than nothing at all.

All efforts for transparency are dismissed, or acknowledged then later ignored. Nuff said there. Rather than spend any time together she decides to spend time online with that damn game. I mentioned my complain about being ignored and feeling anxious as this was the medium used to start the EA. She agreed, but did nothing to address this in her actions and in fact increased her online time thus making me irritated and eventually angry as my request was completely ignored.

She also has been focused on getting her hands on the evidence which include the audio of her online conversation with the OM, her emotional and verbal abuse towards my eldest son, her disregard to smoking in the house, her having my eldest son prepare oatmeal for the children dinner, further issues as well and all associated items as well including my journals. for the former she'll claim she needs these material to get past this marital issue and wants my journals to read over to understand me better. neither request to me makes sense.

No effort has been made to repair the damage she has done to my eldest son from the abuse she has done to him. His siblings have also remembered a lot more than I thought which makes it hard to bear.

She has also attempted suicide twice since this has happened and 5 times over all, this last time I made her go to therapy or face the on call clinicians, she chose the former.

She has also made severely mean comments towards me regarding my feelings or complaints from the affair, leaving me totally defeated.

And during it all she has also been diagnosed with either bipolar traits as well as bpd traits as well along with reactive depression. This has made her withdraw from the family and spend little time awake during the day when I am gone.

She is now saying that the only way to fix herself is to leave via a separation which I have protested for many reasons, the primary as Harley notes is not being able to fix any issues while apart. But Between everything I am facing with work, children, bills, house care, after work sporting activities and much more I am ready to pop. I read a statement Melodylane wrote about "the first time in 13 years she ever heard of a wife wanting to leave without the involvement of another man" and I tend to agree with her. However maybe she is needing this time away legitimately.

This has put me at a cross road gamble in a sorts. See if I post a facebook post for ALL to see then I risk restarting the affair as she may be tempted to contact him again, which is something she swears up and down she isn't going to do but does not dismiss that maybe this will lead to divorce as a "Who knows" statement.

Or do I risk letting her walk to actually fix herself and trust that she will not restart the affair whether the depression issues are present or a smokescreen (please note I am not denying the issues exist, but people are people and sometime they lie so...)

And Jedi, please stop putting links on your posts, I cannot see this forum from my work as it is filtered out, well, you posts anyway.

After doing some research it also appears that I am suffering from post infidelity PTSD, never knew it was a condition.

Self diagnosing and putting labels on your state of mind will not help you.

Focus only on being a better version of who you are and continue to attempt to Get A Life finding even the slightest bits of joy in pursuits and friendships. Volunteer somewhere to feel a purpose. Keep your focus OFF of your marriage and spouse. When it strikes, give it a short moment to process and then divert your focus to something else. It isn't easy, but it does eventually start to get better.

LTL

I take it that you think this is a lost cause?

Again, post him on Cheaterville for the whole world to know.


There is no excuse for this behavior on either of your parts.

I know JD, IT has been difficult, but believe me I am doing m best.

Other than cheater Ville what else is there that I can do? I keep getting mixed signals, the day she claimed separation was the only answer she starts crying saying she doesn't want to leave but feels she can't stay...????????

She has even agreed to have the kids live here and her move out?

Try and make as many deposits as possible. Where and when will she be doing visitation?

It hasn't started yet, and with no proof of the OM or any other OM I feel hopeless, but I have been calmer lately in regards to talking to her. The red flags are still there, no transparency, phone still on lockdown and she takes her purse everywhere.

She hasn't packed anything yet and seems to be conflicted, but what is the confliction about though.

Plan A was working but the anxiety of her making me wait so long for any insight or proof that the affair was over really took it's toll. Add in the NEED for her to get the evidence back has also caused some tension.

Sir, do not let her convince you to leave your home.
If anyone leaves, she does...and if she decides to do NOT help her pack or move.

Sir,

I was in a similar situation.
My wife needed time to "think" and "figure out where she was in life"....well it turned out she was having an affair....

and she later did leave the kids and I...

but I stayed in the house and got custody of the kids because courts do not favor parents who leave the home.

JD,

Trust me, I know in my heart and gut what is going on but I cannot prove anything and know from experience since I heard this before from a past relationship nearly word for word.

From reading SAA it appears right now she is on the fence since she knows what she is going to lose but unable to shake the "Soul Mate" feeling, which she says isn't there. It was never about him, but about her she says, which is true, but since she didn't choose to end it more as it died out I can only assume she was just holding out and sabotaging the repair efforts as much as possible to say "see, we didn't work, time to call it quits".

I guess between the strain of possibly losing my wife and taking over all the duties including raising 4 children alone is taking it's toll, I can do it but its gonna suck.

[/quote]

Sir, do not let her convince you to leave your home.
If anyone leaves, she does...and if she decides to do NOT help her pack or move. [/quote]

Oh no Sir, I am not leaving, I made that perfectly clear. I think she still has the goal of living together and seeing other people... I think anyway, but I know that'll never work.

Make sure you're documenting everything, especially with her leaving.

DOCUMENT DOCUMENT DOCUMENT

You can do it.
I took over raising 3 kids and there are others here that can help you with advice and resources if it comes to that

I have faith in me but the unknown is what is killing me. It seems like she likes or needs attention from her other online friends all the while I have been getting stonewalled.

I also do not trust her at all about any future plans concerning me or the children. Since she has lied about all the other "I'll never's" I can't help but get this deflated feeling from the fear of what she may do.

she still hasn't packed or anything like that yet either. But she has also engaged in very little contact or talking. I suppose if I knew what the outcome was going to be I'd be okay with it, limbo is where I seem to be stuck in, and it sucks.

Well in an interesting development. today I went for a walk for about an hour an when I returned I went into the bedroom to get something and the wife was doing her online gaming thing, but she seemed irritable and asked rather abruptly "what?", I answered non chalantly but unaggresiveley nothing and left. a few moments later I went back in to get some clothes and again she was tense and asked firmly what I wanted, which I said clothes. she then gets up in front of the tv and turns the game system off and claims some people were simply annoying her as to why she seemed irritable.

sounds legit, but, her just cutting the system off is highly irregular. so I checked to see if the OM was online and coincidently he was last seen just around the time she turned the system off.

thanks to technology I asked to see who the recent played list which would confirm my suspicions and she locked up, got angry and refused to show me saying I was picking a fight even though I asked as politely as possible and was as passive as a kitten, she still wound not honor my request.

I think its safe to say he's back, or did he ever leave?

I just can't figure out what I am doing wrong or not enough of!!!

It's obvious the affair isn't over. That's why you could be ultimate and perfect husband and it still won't make a difference when she's having an affair. What's your plan?

Mass Facebook post with description using the template from here.

Exposure to her closest family member this time with nearly every fricking detail I can think of that has happened regarding her behavior from this.

I am also tempted to try what wheelspinning did and file for divorce as a show of intention since she didn't adhere or at least try to follow the MB program. I tried and tried but she didn't follow any of the needed items for recovery and whenever I pressed it came off as demanding. The divorce filing will also show that there are consequences for her actions and that I am serious about her bad behavior.

I just have to detach from her slightly for the next few days as she will hoover me right in, especially since she just spent over half her yearly earnings fixing our van she'll try to attach to me for her financial EN.

But this is a gamble if you look at it logically, I might be wrong, but I certainly don't feel so and if it is indeed a misunderstanding than this might just backfire and she'll have her excuse of my jealously as a way to "escape".

I am open to any other idea's, and by open I mean I-need-a-spark-type-push-to-fight-the-fight-of-my-life idea....

Thank you all BTW.

You really need to post OM on the internet exposure websites because your recent post said you only exposed to 3 of his family members.
I would post him for the whole world to see.

This will be done soon, I am also starting to get concerned over her possibly bringing up false DV charges, although it is just a gut feeling with nothing to back it up.

The level of disconnection is now very high as she will barely speak with me and does so in a manner of such that it comes across a resentful that she even has to engage me in conversation.

This wayward fog is some powerful stuff.

Make sure you keep a recorder hidden on you at all times.
Sleep with the recorder in bed, and back up the voice recordings to a cloud server

JD, May I ask, what is your story and how did you handle it? Although I am 35 yr's old this is a very scary experience.

Sir,
I am 36 so I can relate.
I'm off to work and will post my story later today.

Outstanding, I look forward to reading it.

I'd like to hear your story aswell.
Thank you for your time here Jedi!

Joker,
Your wife is addicted to her affair partner and addicted to the internet. In order to fix your marriage, these two addictions must be dealt with.

You did the right thing in exposing her affair a couple of months ago, but the exposure did not bring about a change in her behavior. And her behavior is unacceptable. The children and you are both being abused, and the house in a shambles.

I have been through this situation with my wife. I will tell you my story.

I had an online affair and was caught. It lasted 3 months. I ended the relationship, though it was hard as I was addicted. My wife then had an online affair also. At one point she took a two week trip out of town and was not in contact with me or our daughters. I was a mess. During that time, the house went downhill and she spent all of her waking hours on the computer. I suspected something was up, but she lied about it. I asked over and over if she was having an affair, and would say no. She finally confessed when I pressed her hard.

When she admitted to the affair, I gave her an ultimatum: leave the affair or leave the house. She chose the latter. This was the most difficult and horrific experience of my life. She moved in with her mother and carried out her affair online with a man who lived overseas. She converted to Islam and took on a whole new life. I exposed right away and her family did not support her choices. This embittered her and drove the wedge in our relationship even farther apart.

But I stayed in Plan A. I restrained from disrespectful judgments and angry outbursts. Though I was very, very angry with my wife, and hated her with a passion for what she had done, I did not show it. I let her know that the door was open for reconciliation, and at certain moments in time I would send her texts that showed her I cared. I would also write her letters occasionally and help her out (not financially) when no one else would.

I'm Catholic and I don't believe in divorce, but I did want to protect my children from the other man who was a Muslim living in a Muslim country. So I filed for a legal separation, and secured my rights for my children and property. My wife countered with a divorce. Eventually, we divorced. She was planning on marrying her affair partner. He is a multimillionaire living in Malaysia. But she learned that he was hyper controlling, and also married with 7 other children. He wanted to marry her as a second wife.

After exposure, being forced to leave the home, and learning what a creep this guy was, her fantasy bubble popped. She hit rock bottom. By that point, we were already divorced. I had reached the point where I was moving forward with my life. I had a girlfriend.

My ex wife contacted me, and we went out to talk about things. This was the first real conversation we had has since she left the house 14 months earlier. We continued conversations, and so I ended my relationship with the girlfriend. After a few talks, she expressed a desire to come back. She missed her family and her old life. This whole thing caught me off guard. I thought we were done once the divorce went through. I was distrustful, reluctant, and still very angry and hurt. But I gave her the pathway to reconciliation: the Marriage Builders program. I would only get back into the relationship if she were willing to read Dr. Harley's books and follow his program. She agreed. We put Extraordinary Precautions in place, and we spent 20 hours of undivided attention time together each week. We took a week-long cruise to reconnect also.

Two years later, we are deeply in love and have a relationship that is as strong as it has every been. The issues that led to a dark point in our lives are past us. We both did things to hurt each other that are now incomprehensible to us. We let our Love Banks empty and we did not put up barriers around the opposite sex. Disaster was inevitable. So many people who knew us were in shock. But God is good, and we have recovered.

Joker, you are at that point where I believe your wife has to have limits set. Your family can no longer endure her behavior. I would ask her to leave the home if she is unwilling to put in place Extraordinary Precautions. She must end any conversations or encounters with the opposite sex, she must get offline permanently as a recreation, she must give you all of her passwords on her phone, ipad, etc., and she must end contact for life with this other man. Then she must get on board with the program and begin spending UA time (20 hours a week) with you. If she is not willing to do this, then take legal action. File for a legal separation and let the attorneys do the dirty work. You, in the meantime, let her know that you love her and open for reconciliation should she decide to accept your terms.

Godspeed!

No, this came up recently and Dr. Harley said that the husband should not ask the cheating wife to leave the home.

Well, maybe you can tolerate those things in your home, Jedi. I couldn't. Things worked out for me. And, I did follow the plan.

Allowing her to stay in the home while she abuses the children, neglects her duties, and screws around with her boy toy online is a deal breaker.

There is no justification for her atrocious behavior to be enabled by Joker.

Dr. Harley answers this at the end of this thread.
When Should a WW be asked to Leave?

Got it, Brain. But in this case, the wayward wife is involving the children in the affair in a way that is very harmful; she has let go of all of her duties; and she is continuing the affair.

The TRUTH is kicking her out of the house under all of these circumstances is NOT an act of uncaring. But he is holding her accountable for her behavior. My wife is one of those who did respect my decision to hold her accountable. Besides, I could not tolerate her having the affair under my nose. It was affecting my sleep and therefore my job.

Joker's wife has been at this for a long time. At some point she has to be held accountable.

One other thing. Dr. Harley says it is risky. But he also says that a spouse has the prerogative to divorce his or her spouse because of infidelity. It is up to the spouse to decide how much they can take and what limits they set. In the case of a cheating spouse living in the home and carrying out the affair, surely, this passes the limit line for some people, and they can't abide by that.

I do understand Dr. Harley's point though. To save the marriage, a betrayed husband should buy time, and do what he can to kill the affair through exposure, and let it die its natural death after that. And he should also carry out the carrot parts of Plan A too. But I think that everyone has their threshold.

In Joker's case, for the reasons I explained at the beginning of this post, I would ask her to leave if she wasn't willing to end contact for life and take on the EP's!

When will you be posting OM on cheaterville?

Brainhurts, JD and JT3OU all make valid points from both points of my current viewpoit. On one hand when she suggests a separation I get that uptight sensation of not wanting it to end and knowing full well that a separation will most likely lead to her engaging in a affair or from her perception a new relationship that would not be considered adulterous as we would be "separated". Although her claims of needing to work on herself for her depression and bipolar issues could be a valid claim at the end of the day she is still my wife and mother of my children.

Of course this gives way to tolerance and stress overall. I agree the internet and privacy walls need to be removed but I cannot make her do so and even the tiniest suggestion elicits a very angry response. This is not to say that I am afraid of her anger but by demanding this new standard she more than likely will rationalize it as me being a controlling a-hole while disregarding the reasons for this request. This has been the primary problem since D-day, no self awareness for these requests.

I also still have the task of caretaking all the households needs, bills, cleanliness etc as well as nearly all matters related to the children as well. toss in a 40+ hour job and one can understand why I am taxed to the limit and have been living like this for this year since January. I also learned that my eldest son was wondering if I could force him to come home as he finds no reason that she will change at all. As for the other three children, I have grown angry asking what they had for lunch only to reply with "nothing" and hearing that mom was in the bedroom all day either laying down watching TV or playing the game with her online friend's, to which I think she is starting to have another EA with (no proof yet)

Although I cannot dismiss Dr. Harley's suggestions or research even he says doing certain things are risky and if she won't stop this behavior whilst here I believe taking the risk may be worth it. Trust me ladies and gents, this issues in its entirety has consumed me and left talking endlessly with myself nearly all the time.

Why don't you email Dr. Harley?


Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

I started to draft one out but it became an epic novel as I felt that certain details were needed to explain why I thought the way I did and the actions I feel I need to take due to the circumstances. I mean, not a damn family member to my knowledge has stepped up to say what she is doing is wrong, and even though I like that they will at least listen to me it pisses me off that despite all I tell them they still will not intervene.

Exposure so far has equaled failure!!!

She refused to end it vs letting it die and still refuses to go transparent. this is not even worth discussing anymore.

But alas I refer to the Doc as he said that if the WS does not adhere to the demands of the MB program that all I lost was an abusive wife, although I am sure it was phrased differently.

I don't want to get divorced, but do I need to get divorced is an open question.

I would still write him. Dr. Harley has a very calm and has a way of giving you excellent direction.

What can it hurt? It's free.

True, I am still waiting on JD's story since his destiny may very well be my own.

Dr Harley's recent advice to a man whose WW would not stop the affair was to leave and take the children with him. If these children are being neglected in the way described they should not be in their mother's care today.

If the BH has any interest in recovering the marriage should the affair ever end, Dr Harley's advice is NOT to ask or tell the WW to leave. The BH who is prepared to wait out the affair should show kindness and consideration right up to the moment he goes into Plan B. That means that, once he reaches the point where living with the affair is intolerable, he should leave, without showing anger or disrespect, and where the children are not safe alone with their mother, he should take them with him. He should seek legal advice to protect them from the affair.

We should help posters, and this BH, to implement Dr Harley's advice in all situations. In this situation his advice protects the BH and the kids, and provides the best circumstances in which the WW might consider reconciliation in the future, once the affair ends. If posters substitute their own advice for Dr Harley's they are doing the BH a disservice.

Your destiny?

As the Doaists say:

�Watch your thoughts; they become words. Watch your words; they become actions. Watch your actions; they become habit. Watch your habits; they become character. Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.�

If you implement the plan laid out here, your destiny is in good hands. You are the force (along with the Holy Spirit, of course), and the decisions and strategies you employ will secure a healthy and happy outcome even if your wife never gets out of the fog.

Don't be afraid to follow the program, and don't delay next steps as this will only slow and retard progress.

Good grief.

You have been leaving your kids in the daily "care" of an abusive, suicidal, drunken, bipolar lunatic.

You cannot hope to solve her problems by taking the usual steps to end her affair (exposure, Plan A). The affair has not caused the problems of abuse, drinking and bipolar. Your wife is seriously ill and needs urgent medical help. Your kids need protection from her.

I would forget fighting the affair and doing Plan A. Either get her committed to a psychiatric institution and stay in the house with the kids, or leave with the kids and let her reach rock bottom on her own. Put the house up for sale.

You need to get the kids away from her. You might think you can ride out her insanity, but if you allow the children to stay in that situation for one more day you are abusing them yourself.

I would have left with the children long ago had I a place to stay, u have no family around where I am which sucks. I am also slowly convincing myself that if I push this hard for my children's safety and well being that I am not responsible for her safety hereafter. I can see myself being blamed for her future actions if they are self destructive.

Detaching from all levels of bonding from her, good or bad, is a struggle.

I'm sorry but that's not good enough. Your children's safety matters much more than hers. You are all they have to protect them, and you have woefully neglected them so far. Send them all to live with relatives if necessary, but get them out of there now. I don't care who blames you for her future actions if they are self destructive; your only responsibility is to protect your children. You asked for her family's help in protecting her from herself and from what I can gather, their response has been weak, so now it is up to you to protect your children from her.

You did her great harm by allowing her to go to "therapy" rather than letting her be detained by mental health services after her suicide attempts. She is not fit to look after herself, never mind children.

I'm actually very angry at what you have allowed your children to go through. Do something about their suffering now. I don't want to hear any more about what you can't do and how you don't have a place to stay. I am not your mother and I cannot sort these things out for you. You are a grown man. Find a solution to getting out of that home or getting her committed.

Why don't you have her committed to a hospital? 5 suicide attempts?? And the abuse those children have had to endure. You have the evidence. What are you waiting for?

**EDIT**

moderator's note: this is out of context on this thread.

Sir,

In my case my wife began an online affair with a former classmate on Facebook which started in July 2011.
During this time, she said she was unhappy and asked to move out to "figure things out"...I did not know about the affair at this point, in October. She moved out for a week but returned heavily depressed. I then discovered a love letter she wrote to OM in the trash. I also had a cell phone bill of $600 which was proof of the affair, phone and text messages to the OM.

Around this time I found the book Surviving an Affair and began Plan A in December. I also ran a criminal background check on OM and found that he was a convicted felon. He actually went to prison for 9 years...for trying to kill his own 3 year old daughter!

So, I contacted an attorney and filed for divorce. Because my wife was so heavily in the fog, she was more focused on her affair than our children. [Dr. Harley has commented that a betrayed spouse can often get favorable divorce terms during an affair because the cheating spouse is only concerned with the affair].

She was neglecting our kids. She was not feeding them during the day and devoted all of her time on the phone with OM.

because of this (the kids went to school hungry and the teachers had to feed them), the court gave me temporary custody.

Now, this was a radical change for me because I worked out of town regularly. I had to quit my work to stay and care for the kids. I went into foreclosure and bankruptcy. During this time I continued to Plan A. She would come and go from the house, for hours or weeks at a time.

6 months after filing (and remaining in Plan A), divorce was finalized. I now have no contact with her, and primary custody of my 3 kids.

I had to reach out for help...I took a parenting class (7 weeks long) from the county...I got the kids into the local YMCA and that helped a lot for afterschool care...I joined a local Church and we participate regularly...I learned housecleaning from Martha Stewarts book...and BROUGHT A ROUTINE AND ORDER TO MY KIDS WHICH BENEFITED THEM IMMENSELY.

Kids NEED a routine.

That sad thing sugar is that I agree with you and if I had a playbook for life I wouldn't even need the encouragement I get from this board as I have come to rely on it for guidance and opinions. I also had to come to realize that I too was a victim of constant emotional abuse and domestic violence. These are not easy things to admit while also fighting the urge to rationalize her behavior.

I now realize that I wasn't crazy and have been part of a relationship that was damaged long ago, the affair merely forced me to detach from her on that level unwillingly that allowed me to see things for what they are, broken!!!

What are you going to do? Are you going to have her checked in to a hospital?

I can't unless she makes an attempt or I capture the threat or act on audio/video. I made a face to face with our local police dept who stated that unless hard evidence is present she could very well talk her way out of it. I know she willingly.

Did you tell them about ALL the evidence you have and her 5 suicide attempts?

Is she still watching the children?

I'm not interested in your musings and reflections. What are you going to do for those children?

What needs to be done, what should've been done long ago. I'd like to say what it is for feedback reasons but I do not know if this cpu is bugged, I haven't found anything suspicious but you never know.

does anyone know where I can get a free spyware cpu scan?

Unfortunately. I had someone set up to assist me but they could not do so during the summer.

Try adaware. here

Thanks Mel.

And yet, in my case, things worked out. Dr, Harley says it is risky, and I was willing to take that risk. My situation was posted here, by the way, and asking my wife to leave was never an issue. My wife respected my decision at the time, by the way. My children and I were not going to leave our house and add more harmful disruption to our lives while my wife carried on her affair. My wife understood that the home would be there for her if she chose to end her affair. I was unable to carry on while she carried on the affair in the home.

I had a successful Plan A, by showing my wife I cared about her but also by setting limits that I could live with and that were best for the children. Leaving the home would not have been best for them.

I'm very happy that things worked out for you.

This forum, however, has the duty to provide Dr Harley's advice to posters.

My wife too said she'd leave the children behind, but I just don't believe her. I am starting to get anxious at what the next few weeks will be like, scared even if I am to be honest.

Did you write Dr. Harley?

I am going to try to finish it up tonight if I can. I have an appointment at 2 PM today. Strikingly she was cordial and thoughtful this morning and even made an effort to avoid some triggers as well. Last night when I said her activity was keeping me awake she stopped immediately without irritation or annoyance and went to sleep.

This is the kinda thing that gets the old brain working into OT. I am on the verge, ready to go and now I get some ample understanding and compassion. It was refreshing to be honest. I also snooped at some documents she had been carrying around like fort knox and found here therapy progression information which appears that she I making progress. This is where the humanity side kicks in, if I push this like I need to I know I am going to do more harm than good, at least it feels that way.

This is also where I am getting stupid and rationalizing. I am getting real ansy right now. This feels wrong, but needed.

This is all nice, but your priority is protecting your children. I understand the temptation to be a conflict avoider, but you don't have that luxury when your children are at risk.

I know Mel, The appointment I have today is with the lawyer. I'd like to see what I can do. I could use a cup of coffee or liquid courage. Or both!

Please read this. Conflict Avoidance is the Kiss of Death

Are you clutching on to one evening of considerate behaviour, and a therapy document, to justify leaving your children in her care?

Are you planning to do anything to protect your children? If so, what?

No sugar, I am not clutching, I know well enough that one day vs years is not going to cut it. I have been rehearsing what I am going to go over with the lawyer at every free moment I have while at work. Going over my notes, journal, what I have for evidence and other details I know I'll need.

I am also not trying to convince myself or anyone for that matter that her behavior is justified or understandable. Any who, depending on what the lawyer says about my situation I will proceed accordingly. Just have to stay focused.

I've been reading another thread of yours. You've been blogging about this situation for months now, through her physical attacks on you, her attempts at self harm, her terrible abuse of your eldest son and her neglect of your other children. You've seen a lawyer at least once since April.

It seems as if you post on forums only to describe how terrible your life is and to get sympathy. You don't take any of the advice that is offered. When are you going to do something to protect your children?

Yes, I saw a lawyer,Yes I have been writing about it for months, yes I feel like utter [censored] having to leave my eldest son at HER fathers house. But to suggest that I have been writing this story and such for the need to get sympathy is a crock. You have no idea about how conflicting and helpless I have felt over this time. I asked anyone for help, anyone, and could get none. Doing what is necessary to get her to leave the house is desirable, but what's this, Who's going to watch the kids so I can make money to feed them, house them? The damn mortgage company does not have a "Sorry your life turned out to be a pile" late fee waiver. So I had that decision to face and no answer to it so I tried to get her help.

I turned to here because I have no where else to turn except for myself and I damn well wanted to know there was no other way!! That this had to be done. I have never been thru this before so yes I wanted to know what others felt cause I needed to know I wasn't crazy. To see someone get so passionate about a lie to the point of violence can make anyone question if what they feel was right. I did not have a playbook of life. Who does?

I getting started today, as in today, what time is it now, 1:12, 48 minutes to go. 48 minutes till I start a battle with their mother and my wife cause I know she ain't going quietly. But sympathy, I can understand you questioning the length of time in coming to this decision but the last thing I want to do is admit that my marriage failed due to my abusive wife who was willing to toss it all away as aggressively as she could and oh yeah I got replaced by a dude she met ON A GODDAMN VIDEO GAME!!!!!!

You keep using this phrase, but I don't know why it's relevant. Nobody has a playbook of life, but most people do not leave their kids in an actively abusive situation. Women escape the abuse from their violent husbands every day. They go and live in shelters if need be. People do not just leave their kids in the daily care of a violent, drunken, suicidal, online game-playing zombie mother just because nobody has " a playbook of life".

You already won the custody of your eldest son from his mother, so you know this can be done. You already sent him to live with your wife's father, so you know there is a solution in sending the kids to live with caring relatives. Why have you become so paralysed over your remaining kids that you leave them in squalor?

Stop shouting at me and "damn" - ing and "goddamn" -ing. That accomplishes nothing. It does not make you sound like a man. It does not make you sound as if you are working as hard as you can to end this situation. It just makes you sound childish. You've posted here for advice and I won't give you sympathy while you allow your kids to live with an abusive mother.

Ask your relatives to take the children in. If her father is a good enough man to look after one child that is not his grandson, can he look after any more? More about your parents? Sister? Brothers? Her family? I know she has family. Will they take in one or all three children? If not, call children and family services and explain your plight. Get them to find you somewhere to live while you put the house up for sale and file for full custody.

IIjokerII,

I agree with Sugarcane. Please do everything in your power to protect your kids. There has to be other means other than leaving them with her.

I am not disagreeing with her, she's absoluteley right, it's just the frustration boiling over. The lawyer meeting went meh I suppose. Found out what a retainer fee was and how much they can cost. His suggestions i'll keep on the lowdown for now for obvious reasons.

I'll contact her father and try to work with him on child care during the AM hours. School starts this wednesday so that might make it easier on him to assist. I'll also try to talk to her about her leaving for space in the time being as well. I'll take it from there.

Sir, the only playbook you need in life is a list of rules you will live by.
Then, you apply those rules to the circumstances you face.

You cannot be idle, waiting for external forces to change your circumstances.

Wait.
I would not ask her to leave the home unless you first email Dr. Harley.

Have you contacted her father?

I asked her Father and step mother, both of whom she does not talk to right now due to their ability to challenge her without fear of what she'll do or feel towards them, and they both said they'd come over in the morning to send the children off to school. I filled out the Divorce paperwork as well.

This past week alone has been a very stressful also. I caught her trying to reestablish contact with her EA AP best friend via online. Despite knowing I'd more than likely have a problem with this she did it anyway. When I asked her about it she said he sent her the request but was able to deduce that this was a lie. Given the involvement of who this individual is it seems like fishing to me.

She had also been staying late at work the last few nights, a highly irregular practice, and a haunting one at that as this was an excuse I heard from my ex back in the day. Not soon after she states that she is going out with her co workers, all women, after work this past Sunday. Although I am not controlling it would have been nice to have been consulted about my feelings or at least asked if I was cool with it. I don't know why but I had the irresistible urge to ask her if she was going on a date. She became very angry, self demeaning and left for work. I called to continue the conversation and she again said she'd make plans to move in with her mother.

She calls me just after work to tell me she is still going out for a bit and is gone for three hours not coming home until one in the morning. She came straight to bed, did not try to wake me up, I already was awake for obvious reasons. I talked to her for a bit and after a little bit of conversation she claimed that if I ever "Accused" her of or kept pushing it, which I only have asked one time due to her strange behavior, if she had one date, that she'd go ahead and do it and make sure to finish up just as I was getting home.

This has left me with the shakes, since the last time she said this "I pushed it" phrase, whatever topic I supposedly pushed, which was evidently true in the end, became a reality. I am at a loss and sick to my stomach, am I over reacting to this?

What do you mean you filled out the divorce paperwork?
I hope you visited an attorney and not a do-it-yourself divorce kit.

First, a better approach may be to say: "I feel uncomfortable about you going out without me"

As for her threats, that's a hot headed response of her's.

I would ignore her emotional responses and focus on Plan A (or Plan B if it comes down the road).

Joker,
This thread began 5 months ago, and the common theme that runs through it is fear and hesitance. You let those two things cloud your judgement.

Instead of fearing your wife's reaction to every action, take the steps in the program. Listen to the people who are advising you here.

Your wife sees that you are paralyzed by fear. That's why she walks all over you and the kids. By the way, women loath and despise weak men. They look for strength and fortitude in their mate. This does not mean you should become a bully or a Neanderthal. But it does mean you need to act decisively and be strategic.

It is time to set limit and stick with them. If she refuses to give up her independent lifestyle, then it is time for her to leave the home. Her actions over the past 5 months have been deal breakers, and you must empower yourself to tolerate them no more.

At this point, I would recommend you either Plan A from a distance or go to Plan B. But you have to act decisively and separate yourself from her intolerable ways.

Are you willing to man up?

I agree with you, I am afraid, of being wrong, the battle ahead, her rubbing a new man in my face as I think she would do so, think anyway. I fear how she'll react if I ask her to leave if the stress gets to great and invariably get a overwhelming feeling of needing to keep this woman in my life, pretty sick I know but....

Supposedly her therapist suggested she simply go out with or without my opinion or feelings in the matter even considered, however truthful this is though is up for debate I guess. I've been to the best of my ability in plan A but this is taken advantage of and whatever actions or inactions she takes are continued.

I have taken all the good people's advice and thank them whole heartedly for there time and effort to guide me thru this maze, but some people have suggested 2 course of actions, either ask her to leave for now to protect myself and the children from her erratic behavior or remain in the atmosphere I am in now in the hopes of riding it out. The latter though is insanely tough as she still has not become open and transparent about anything, sure she'll tell me but as for me looking myself or being involved, not a chance.

A combination of both, I had the consultation and noted his recommendations, yes I have almost completed the Paperwork, I do not have the 7500 dollars for the retainer fee and I know she has at the most maybe 2K, so neither of us are in a position for a financial war thru lawyers.

Also, after working for a Government installation for 12 years the JD forms were extremely easy to navigate. In the end, what choice do I have?

What did you do Sir?

joker, there are many posts on this forum outlining Dr Harley's position which is NOT to ask a WW to leave the home, if you want to recover the marriage should the affair ever die. You, and other posters here, should be familiar with his advice by now. There is even a thread on which Dr Harley himself participated. I'm sure Brainy will read this and link it imminently (thanks, Brainy!)

Please follow Dr Harley's programme properly or not at all. He advises a lengthy Plan A for men with WWs, and that, should it come to Plan B, the man should move out. You need to take legal advice about the welfare of your children before you do that, however.

I'm no Brainy but here it is: When should a Wayward Wife be asked to leave

What her therapist says is irrelevant and self serving to her and your WW. Pay NOT one bit of attention to what her therapist says.
Remember don't believe a thing the wayward says, it is FOG babble.

Said earlier, - you need to man up.

I am familiar as I have read LOTS and lots of posts, my situation seems similar to an individual named Wheel spinning long ago. I've been in plan A since January, the affair died out in Late April or so, cannot confirm as transparency is not present and rebuffed when asked.

The Lawyer said that at any time I can take the children with me and relocate as needed so long as it is still within the state since no Custody order is in effect. This runs the serious risk though of shocking the children by dragging them from their home and more than likely changing schools. They have roots now, unsure how'd they react.

as J3U pointed out she does not put any effort into this what so ever and seeming since she is the common denominator in all this introduced domestic chaos it seems logical that I request her to leave but keep the option open for reconciliation. This will run the risk of the marriage tanking out but if she is sabotaging it anyway thru passive or direct means of stubbornness and self imposed irritation the risk is there as well, kinda makes it tough to decide.

I thought about leaving for a bit once or twice, something Harley suggests that the man should do. Then I remembered Melody Lanes thread about Men not leaving their home. Which approach is right in this instance?

Melody's thread is here : Men, do not leave your home

Dr Harley's comments were added to that thread. Melody was referring to a situation where a WW asks (demands) her husband to leave the home. Dr Harley's advice is addressing the question of whether a man should "kick his WW out". Two different things.

There's an old saying that only a fool represents himself in court.
I didn't have the money either, and I borrowed the money from family.

Do whatever you need to do to hire an attorney. When there is custody involved you need to prepare for war

So then what are you going to do? Your version of Plan A isn't working.

Your wife is unsafe and unstable. This is not the kind of environment your children should be constantly exposed to, and her out-of-control behavior shows no signs of abating.

If you still have hope for saving your marriage, I would write her a letter telling her that she is the love of your life and you would like to renew your marriage. Tell her you have a plan that will lead to lasting happiness and romantic love. But also tell her that the plan requires her to end contact with life with the man in California and requires her to end her independent behavior. It would also require the two of you to spend time together nurturing your marriage. I would then let her know that when she is ready to commit to this kind of a plan, she may return to the home, but until then you are no longer able to tolerate her behavior, you can't live with her, and if it doesn't change you will file for a legal separation.

If she doesn't agree to these terms, change the locks.

The ONLY responsible choice would be to LEAVE the home with your children. It is reckless and irresponsible to leave your children ALONE with this woman. Your kids don't give a DAMN about your bills. You need to get them out of there and make arrangements for their care.

Please don't use my thread as an excuse to get yourself and your kids out of there. You are taking it out of context.

I am certain you are joking, Sir. Children are not "shocked" when they are removed from abusive, neglectful situations, they are relieved. It is your OBLIGATION AS A FATHER to remove them from this situation or you are just as guilty as your wife.

Are you seriously telling me that you think it's better for your children to be abused and neglected by their mother than to move house and be protected by you? Do you think children want to hang on to their "roots" more than they want to be safe, loved and cared for?

How old are your children?

You keep coming here to talk about the affair. You are saying that the affair died out in April and there is no sign of it now, so you're in the position of several other posters whose fought against their wives' affairs and won.

The problem is that the affair is only one of several problems that you have, all of which are bigger than the affair.

There are the problems of her drinking, her addiction to computer games, her bi-polar and suicide attempts, her neglect of the kids and her abuse of the kids and you. You keep wanting to put those problems to one side and focus on the affair, but the affair should never have been a bigger concern than all those other things. Your problems all along was not "surviving an affair".

Are the kids all at school? What level of care and attention is your wife giving them when they get home? Are they still being fed oatmeal by the 11 year-old child and then put to bed at 5PM so that she can play games for the rest of the evening?

The poster Wheels Spinning did not have a drunken, abusive, bi-polar, suicidal wife, by the way. Your situation is NOTHING like his and there is no hope of recovering your marriage unless your wife is admitted to a treatment programme..