Hello all,
Am very new to this forum but have spent most of the last couple of days reading posts. I am hoping someone can give me some insight into my situation as there isn't anyone I can confide in fully in real life and there are days when I feel like I am going crazy.
My husband and I are both 33 years old and will have been married for 5 years in May and have been together for nearly 8 years. We have 2 children ages 1 and 4 and am expecting a third.

We have been having a few issues mainly around communication and withdrawing from each other. Before we got married and had children, we worked together in his business. After I had my son, I stopped working and stayed home to care for him full-time. The business seemed to consume all his time and I felt very neglected at home which I handled by just trying to get on with it and not putting any additional pressure on him, but if I.m honest I felt some resentment that he wasn't interested in family life, turns out he felt I didn't support him enough in the business.

Last year he would need to go out of the time we lived in for work, it's only about an hour away but he got into the habit of driving down the night before and staying at his mums. Eventually I started to get the feeling that he no longer stayed at his mums, and it just so happened that I came across a hotel membership card, which I knew he had as we used to use it for ourselves but we hadn't stayed in a hotel for a long time so I went online and entered in the membership number guessed his password and there was a whole list of nights booked at a particular hotel and it wasn't our usual one.
I kept this to myself and every time he would tell me he needed to go out of town and stay overnight I would log into the account and there would be a hotel booked already. Sometimes he wouldn't say he was staying the night he would go for meetings and then call me to say he was too tired to drive back - and of course I would check and see he had already booked an hotel.

One night I was in bed and heard him on the phone downstairs, his voice sounded different, not like how he would talk to his friends usually but more like how he would talk to me. I went downstairs and asked who he talking to and he said a friend and offered to call his friend back if I wanted to check. I of course said don't worry as I know that any of his friends would probably cover for him.

I began to get more and more suspicious, I checked his phone bills as he never even bothers to open them, and saw a couple of reoccurring numbers, especially late at night. I called the number and put the phone down when I heard a girls voice. I asked him about the numbers and told him that I saw his bill, he had and excuse for why he was talking to this girl. I then happened to see some pictures on his iPad of this girl, his excuse was that his friend (who is single) always sends him pictures of his dates. This was a lie as I had done some digging around on this girl and traced her to Facebook using her phone number so I knew what she looked like.
Since then he would intercept his phone bills and he put a password on his iPad so I no longer has access.

This behaviour continued and he began to say less and less to me, he would avoid eye contact, never touched or hugged me unless I did it first and seemed like I annoyed him most of the time. There were some times when we were ok but in general things deteriorated and I became very down. I became obbssessed with finding out more info.
Eventually I managed to crack the password on his iPad and saw he had an app for a dating website, he had his picture on there and there were some messages from some girls. I asked him about having a profile and he denied it - even though I had seen it with my own 2 eyes!

I also found where he hid his phone bills and found he has been talking another girl. We had a blow up during christams were he accused me of not caring about him at all and offering no support as his business was going into liquidation. ( he had another business).

We decided to go to counselling, and if I'm honest I felt as if he only suggested counselling as a last ditch attempt to say 'we tried' as opposed to actually trying. His behaviour hasn't changed.

I look through his coat pockets and wallet and always find receipts for things like restaurants and cinema - I don't know who he is going with, and sometimes it is with a group of people, and it makes me angry because apart from the lying, spending money we could do with on others and staying at hotels is just irresponsible


He is very smart as he often doesn't 'lie' about what he is doing he just doesn't say anything and leaves me to assume.

I couldn't take anymore as he never wants to discuss anything properly and is always talking about how I didnt support him with his business - how he works so hard and i dont appreciate it. Lots of times I have actually apologised to him for how he felt, even though I felt totally alone in the marriage with him not helping at all with the kids or spending time with me- but I wanted him to know I did see his hard work and appreciated it but the more he goes on about it the more I feel he might just be saying that to manipulate me and make me feel guilty.

We stopped counselling and I have been trying to initiate us talking more and growing closer but he seems so resistant. He still stays out of town for work, still talks to this girl late at night and I.m still finding receipts for restaurants etc. I just feel he doesn't want to work on the marriage.
So I told him it was best to separate if he wasn't willing to work on the marriage and build new habits, but he thinks I.m just irrational and emotional because of the pregnancy, but I feel he is not taking me seriously.

I know there are a lot of red flags but I wish I had something more concrete that screams affair!!! Or does it scream affair and I'm just in denial? I guess i'm looking for some outside input to tell me I am not going crazy and his behaviour is unacceptable.
Sorry this was so long. Hope it makes sense?

Welcome to MB and sorry for the pain that has brought you here.

Sorry to tell you, but not only is having an affair but he's having multiple affairs.

Can you afford a PI to get all these OW's names?

Since you know the one OW's name. Is she married?

Also, please read this.
SAA-Start Here First

Hi, Welcome to MB. I am so sorry for your pain. I'm glad that you have found us.

Yes, your husband is having affairs. We can explain more and answer any questions to help you to come up with a plan. But first, take some time and read the link that BrainHurts provided for you, and then we can help you with what to do to get solid evidence of the affair(s).

Another useful link may be this one: What is Gaslighting It may help you to understand why you are feeling as if you are going crazy (you're not).

Thank you for responding. My heart dropped when you said multiple affairs. Incidntly he was 'working' Sunday and so stayed over out of town Saturday night and hasn't come home tonight either.......
Will read the links you posted


I forgot to also add in my original post that a few weeks ago I found a slip from a a hospital. I googled the number and it came up with sexual health clinic. He was out of the house when I asked him about it -his excuse was that he went to get out for prostate problems???? Which is possible I suppose but why didn't he tell me if he was worried about his prostate ? Plus it was a random hospital out if the area, why wouldn't he go to the local hospital? So many lies......

Will have a look at links, thanks again

I feel even more depressed after reading about plan A , how can I be nice and try to entice him back etc i don't even want to look at him or say two words to him. How can he go out and do things behind my back and then wander back in the house expecting to be loved and looked after. It makes me feel so ill and angry.
This has been the problem, since I started suspecting him I have probably acted all over the place, but its so hard to carry on as normal pretend all is ok. Especially when they act like they don't care about you at all......

This woman is not an issue anymore I don't think as her number is no longer on his phone bill. I think she is now engaged.
The number that comes up is different now and it sounds like a different girl.
On very low days I am tempted to call the number and say I'm the wife, how do you know my husband?

How far along are you in your pregnancy? Have you been tested for STDs since the last time that you had sex with your husband?

What you are going through is not healthy for any woman to experience, let alone someone carrying a baby. Because of this, Dr. Harley recommends that a woman not stay in plan A longer than three weeks. So you are going to need to work FAST to learn as much as possible about this program, and prepare to switch to PLAN B if your husband will not stop his secret second life.

At this point, you should prepare for Plan B.
Have you read about Plan B?
Do you have the book Surviving an Affair by Dr. Willard Harley?

Thanks for responding. I am 6 months along. This is part of the reason I think he also won't confess or discuss things , he's worried about my reaction and how it would affect the baby. He doesn't realise that this limbo I'm in is affecting me much worse.
Last time we had sex he insisted on using a condom which he has never ever suggsted while I've been pregnant with our other 2 children. So that made me upset and suspicious as it wasnt long after I found the slip from the sexual health clinic.
I've tried not to think about it but I suppose I should speak to my midwife

I Am looking into Plan B as I think I have done plan A at various points within the last few months although not properly as I only just came across this site. But do I continue to gather evidence? The plan was to get a voice recorder this afternoon for his home office and possibly order a key logger device.

You should try to get as much evidence as possible and then expose the affairs.
At this point, the phone bills alone are evidence enough.
I think you should expose based on that and enter Plan B.

When you expose, it should be strategically done: "nuclear exposure."

Other posters will provide links and instructions for exposure and initiating Plan B.

Also, this is what I think Dr. Harley would recommend to you but wait until others post before deciding.

It depends upon how strong you feel. If you feel strong enough to get the voice recorder and yes a key logger, and if you can swing it, a GPS for his vehicle, then yes, do so.

The most important thing right now is your health and your baby's health. You may consider hiring a PI instead. They can usually get the goods within a few days, and then once you have the evidence, you can expose and do a fast Plan A, and then BAM go into a dark Plan B if need be.

The reason that we say prepare for Plan B is that your emails are FULL of red flags. We do not take it lightly and we sure do not want to shovel a bunch of work onto you as you are reeling from all of this, but you truly do NOT have much time. You need to act on this immediately so as to protect your health.

Spend as much time as you can reading this site today to learn the program.

Get the goods either with snooping yourself or hiring a PI.

Call your midwife today to let her know that you may have been exposed to STDs.

Thank you all, I will be reading more of the site today. I have got the voice recorder so will try to set up tonight. Not sure phone bills are enough evidence as too easy to lie out of. It sure would be easier to hire a PI - will look into that too but they cost a lot of money don't they? Will contact a couple.

Thanks again, it's nice not to feel so alone as I have been feeling over the last year and it feels good to at least have some sort of plan

Good job getting that voice recorder. Is it voice activated? How about a key logger? A GPS?

I did surveillance myself, so I don't know how much a PI would cost.

The important thing is that you not drag this out in any way. Get all of your tools set up straight away, and then let them do their work WHILE you switch into self care mode. Read and learn here, but also remember to eat often, drink water, get up and walk around at least every hour.

Yes the recorder is voice activated. Bit disappointed as couldn't get it in a great spot as was still trying to figure it out when he came home from work.
I think I might leave the key logger as he is very computer savvy and am scared he will find it. The actual software won't work as dont have password for his computer. It would be ideal to get something on his phone but there's no way I could get near it.
Am requesting info on some PI's to see if I could afford one.
Trying to look after myself but this just dominates my every thought - along with looking after my other little ones.

So I managed to look through his wallets and have found some receipts for restaurants and there are some where it shows a group of 4 people dined and there were 2 kids meals ordered?? Also I found another receipt for bowling and it was for a 'family of four'. It's all so odd, would a man really cheat on his wife with a woman who has kids of her own - and she lets them hang out with her lover? Isn't that strange? I suppose she may not know he is married.

Then I thought a crazy thought that maybe they were his kids??? A long time ago he asked me a hypothetical about what I would do if he another child with someone else - but it was more a banter/joke type of conversation but now I'm beginning to wonder.

He said that April would be a tight month financially , well after looking at all these receipts for meals and outings I can see why. It makes me angry that we are tightening our purse strings and he's off splashing his cash on whoever these people are!

Sorry for ranting, just wanted to get it out

Do you have access to any of his credit card statements?

I wouldn't focus too much on "why" right now. We cannot guess the mindset of a wayward (and it drags us down to think about it). The point is that you DO have evidence that he IS having a secret second life. Keep your findings to yourself for now and compile the evidence.

You really need to get a key logger onto his computer and get a GPS on his vehicle. I am concerned about you if this drags on too long. Either that or hire a PI. Do you have a credit card that you could use? They may be able to get a key logger onto his password protected computer. It is possible that he/she could get the evidence within the next few days, so that you can then KNOW what is really going on in your own life.

Okay, so now you know for sure. I want to compose a reply for you, but I am in the middle of a rush for work right now (for the next 30-40 minutes).

Can you please wait to confront him for a little bit? Or if someone else replies to help you out with things, that is good also.

The point is that you need to think with your logic rather than your emotion. Since this has just been discovered, it is best for you to calm down for a little bit before taking action. Can you do that?

Do you know the woman's name and phone number?

Thanks for replying I appreciate it. I will wait. I need to calm down and I can't think straight plus am alternating between breaking down in tears and trying to hide it from the kids

I know her phone number from the bills but no name.

do a reverse phone lookup online and you can get her name. That way you can gather exposure list on her for your exposure.

I wish I could but the general public are not allowed to do that in this country

SP12, what country are you in?

If you TRULY want your husband out, that is your right. No one could blame you, especially as this is most probably only the tip of the iceberg of his SSL (secret second life).

If however, you are open to trying to save your M, then kicking your H out immediately may not be your best option. We can help you whether you choose to stay or go.

Dr. Harley has stated that in order to save the M, we are better to be under the same roof. There IS a chance that once confronted and exposed, your H may agree to end all contact forever with his affair partners. He would need to hand-write a no contact for life letter to any and all of his affair partners, and then you would personally mail the letter(s).

So the first thing that I would do is get the name of that woman and then look her info up on the internet, Facebook, etc. so that you can find out if she is married, who her parents and siblings are, who her good friends on Facebook seem to be, if she WORKS with your husband, etc.

If you are in the US, you can begin with a service for looking up the owner of the phone number that you have. I use freephonetracer. It is $19.95 per month but there is a free trial I believe. That service does also look up most cell phone numbers (not the throw away phones though). I'm sure that others are just as good. It will show you the cell owner's name and address. Then you can google the name and city to see what else you can come up with. It is like pieces of a puzzle. Search on Facebook for the name, and if that comes up with nothing, then try inputting the phone number and/or the email address.

Go back and read the exposure thread again HERE

Do you have a tablet that you could download Dr. Harley's Surviving an Affair onto? It is available on Amazon.

A side point about saving/not saving your M, when I was faced with similar, I decided to just stay for one more day. 24 hours. You don't have to decide the rest of your life right now.

If upon exposure, your husband refuses to end all contact, write the NC letter(s), and then set up extraordinary precautions with you, then you must go Plan B. Of course you can also choose to expose and then go STRAIGHT to Plan B. Whichever path you take though, you must prepare right now for Plan B. So re-read info on that HERE

Also SP12, can you save those restaurant receipts, and the evidence that you heard on the VAR? How about the health clinic receipt?

I apologize if that is a given, but I wasn't thinking too straight when I was in your shoes, so just wanted to send a reminder.

I am in the uk, i have looked into it believe me and don't think it can be done here for mobile phone numbers. I don't know how else I could get her name unless he tells me.

My first choice would be to save the marriage but right now it hurts too much to think about staying - maybe i just need to get away for a few days i dont know.

Will look at getting the book and read up on plan b again.

Thanks again

Yep I have them saved

Gottcha. Okay, we have some members here that are from the UK. Let's wait to see what they say.

I got the goods on the fat slag just by Googling the number. If that does not work, get a friend to call her mobile. Obviously you should only do this from a number that she will not recognise. Ask if she is Jane Smith. She might just give her name. If she does not, apologise and hang up. Then immediately call again. With any luck she will send that second call to voice mail and you can get her name that way.

By the way, once I had her name, I was able to search a backup of his phone and got everything on her.

Just wanted to thank you all that commented and offered advice. I have managed to get a confession. He still lied at first but eventually broke down and told me everything - well I'm not naive enough to think I was told 100% everything. I now know he is seeing someone and has slept with her. He kept apologising and asked for forgiveness.

I still need some time away from him which I guess is Plan B. it has been a tough day and I feel emotionally drained.

I welcome any comments and advice to get through the next few days, just got to get through tonight first

He told me her name reluctantly but for some reason I don't believe he's telling me her real name - but that may be because I'm having trouble believing everything he is telling me obviously. But we'll see.
I've called her a few times and it has gone to voicemail once before but her voicemail isn't personalised so no name

SP, I've only just skimmed through this thread but this jumped out at me - this and the post where he told you her name. The thing is, from what I read in your first post, there seems to have been more than one OW. There was the one with her picture on his iPad, the dating websites and then another woman with a different phone number.

If you are to even contemplate recovering with your H, he needs to stop going out of town immediately. Every time he goes away he is staying with some woman, and no matter what he promises you, he will continue to stay with her on every trip. Jobs that require nights away for business are disastrous for marriages. My H had such a job that required travel to Brussels and occasionally other European cities, and this provided the perfect circumstances for a very deep affair. I only managed to stop the sexual contact occurring by declaring that if he ever travelled again I and the kids would not be home when he got back, and I only managed to stop the 5 years of phone calls that continued after that by agreeing that my H should retire from work.

Your H has quite a secret second life that has been going on without any interference from you for some time, and I don't think you know the full extent of what you are dealing with. He has told you a name, but you still do not know what this OW's connection is - e.g. does she live in the city that he travels to? Is is connected to his employment? Would stopping his travel stop their contact, or does she actually live near your city and travel with him? Does he in fact not travel far at all sometimes, but book into hotels quite near to home? If she is anywhere near your area, then stopping his travel will not stop him from seeing her, and if she travels too (as did OW in my situation), then you will never know when she travels to your city to meet him.

And what about these other women - will he identify them to you? Will you be able to see that he cuts off contact with them? If he is enrolled on dating websites and you put parental controls on his PC and phone so he could not access these, would he just access them from work?

You've got the confession of one affair, and so it might seem that you can work on ending alI contact with that woman, but my worry is that it isn't as simple as that. I think that your H will conceal the details of his involvement with the one woman that you do know about, and not tell you about other hidden women.

I think you should ask for more information about the woman he has confessed about (along the lines of my questions), and also tell him that you know about the dating profiles and the other OW and ask for full details. See how much he is prepared to tell you, and come back to us with that information.

I have a horrible feeling that he won't tell you much more and that we end up recommending that you tell him to leave until he changes job and agrees to your conditions for recovery - but we'll see. Don't tell him to leave now, not even to give you space. You need to try and spy on him a bit more, and you need to talk to him to test his openness and degree of desperation to recover.

Try and get spyware on all his devices, including the home PC, and google this woman's name. There will be tons of information on the Internet about her, and it is simply a case of finding her. Try googling her name and the company that he works for, to see if she works for it too, and also her name plus the city where their sex tryst hotel is located.

SP,

You have some excellent advice so far. I know this has to be extremely stressful and depressing for you right now but you don't have a make any decisions at this time. OK, he knows you know now, so he's going to be trying to do damage control. Let him try to do the work right now to explain what he has been doing and with whom. Listen, asking appropriate questions when you feel the need. You may eventually need to ask him to take a polygraph to insure to have the entire truth.

Your most important mission is to take care of yourself and those little ones. Did you call your midwife and set up an apt for the std check?

Along with all the good advice, can you have him take a polygraph?

Thank you all again for taking the time to respond. There was so much information my brain couldn't quite process it all yesterday it was just too much.
Before the confession he was actually going to go out of town and stay over for work this morning. After our long talk he obviously didn't go. After a difficult start to the conversation I felt he did break down his defensive Walls and said he was tired of lying and the reason he never liked to touch me was because he felt ashamed etc

Again I'm not naive enough to believe he told me everything - and there is a lot more to ask but couldn't handle it yesterday. I now wonder if I've missed the opportunity.

I still feel I need space from him which may or may not be the right thing but I do. Maybe it's just because of the pregnancy but even the snooping is so tiring.
I will try and contact some Pi's today - and a key logger for the computer, it would be a few days before he takes this away so will have to work quick.

My feeling js that there were/are probably other women but I don't think he slept with them

The problem is he has a work contract coming up Friday and Saturday that will require an overnight stay.

Right now will try to process things and work on getting more info, I have her name, he told me the area she is in which may be a lie, but they always ate at restaurants in another area so will check out both.

Not sure about the polygraph if he would agree but it is a suggestion I will if things still do not seem clear, I'm thinking counselling first?

Lastly I need to try and regroup today and take it a little easy today as had a few episodes of not being able to breath last night where WH had to calm me down and get me to breath properly, which I suppose is some kind of panic attack, and I have to think about baby I'm carrying

Will update you on anything else I find.

Thanks. Again

Don't go to counselling. use the telephone coaching service here, which is run by Dr Harley's son and daughter. Don't involve your H in the coaching at this stage - let the Harley's advise you individually.

A keylogger takes about 3 minutes to buy and download, so please do this now. you need one for each device. You must not let your H see the purchase on your credit or debit card statement.

In case he leaves, you nee to secure your finances. Do you have a separate bank account?

I would also write to Dr Harley today, and tell him about the pregnancy (and the affairs, of course). He needs to advise you whether living with your H is too dangerous for your health.

I won't be on the forum today, but I'm sure others will help you with your email to Dr H, the coaching service, the keylogger and everything else. Best of luck.

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

SP12, if you want to save your marriage, space from him can include your husband watching the little ones while you go out, and then him sleeping on the couch while you sleep in the marital bed.

I'm glad that he canceled his overnight last evening, and he must also cancel his overnight on Friday/Saturday. If you choose recovery, you BOTH are going to be learning to protect your marriage carefully from here on out. You both are going to need to commit to no more overnights away from each other for any reason.

You are right in your feeling when you doubt that he told you everything. It would be quite shocking if he did, and most likely he just told you the tip of the iceberg, but you have most certainly not lost your opportunity for the truth.

Traditional marriage counseling is of zero value. My husband went to marriage counseling eagerly with me and proceeded to bold-face lie to the counselor about how this was all his fault and how he had NO idea how much pain an affair could cause to the spouse�all this AS he and his skank had gone underground and continued to be in contact. It would be better for you to contact the Harleys for counseling. You can contact them HERE

Oh yes, when the time comes, then your husband WILL have to agree to a polygraph if you need it. But that is a bit down the road. For now, just jot down his confessions as they come, so that you can refer to them if/when you later choose to insist on a polygraph.

Sugarcane has brought up some good questions in her post. Focus on getting that information, and as the story comes out, we can help you with thinking of more questions.

Yes, take care of yourself and the baby today. Do you have family or friends nearby who could help out a bit? Is there someone who could come and take the little ones on an outing away from the house, even for an hour or two? That way you could have a bit of down time for yourself.

Thanks all.
I keep going back and forth between wanting to save the marriage and wanting to end it all as not sure I can handle a lifetime of doubt and worry of another affair. But I am reading 'surviving the affair' so hoping that will help give me some clarity.


Will have a chat tonight to get more answers from him. I do think there are/were other women but maybe things didn't get as far as this one, but the intention itself is a problem.

Blind sighted - I agree no more overnight stays, either he gets used to driving back home when's he's done or we all go and stay at a hotel together.
No family close by - am doing ok with kids so far but a friend has offered to take them for a bit if I need.

Does anyone kow if a key logger will work without logging into the computer? Stupid question probably but don't have password for the computer (i can only log on as a guest) to install software so was going to get the device that you plug in instead but will this still require access into the computer?
I will continue to use the voice recorder. Best money I ever spent buying it, I wouldn't have got concrete proof without it.

Sugarcane, if he does decide to leave he would still support us, he is like that. I know it's hard to think of him having good qualities but he would look after us

I really appreciate you all taking time to respond to me.

You will need to note every confession for the polygraph later. Knowing the full truth will help put your mind at ease, this should DEFINITELY be a condition of recovery, he has no choice in this matter. Its take the conditions you lay out or leave the marriage. That is for later though.

First and foremost, DO NOT allow him to have an overnight stay this weekend. He will absolutely see the OW, 100% guaranteed. You will tell him he must cancel or he will not be allowed back or you must accompany him and he will need to spend his lunch and break times with you. He does not get to run to OW's arms to discuss his options now that he is busted.

If he refuses, then you refuse to have him in your home.

Absolutely agree, that's what I plan to tell him tonight, no overnight stay and if he argues it then he won't be allowed back

I recorded our conversation yesterday so have the confession on tape, I plan to record all our conversations to see if he can keep his stories straight

When will you be exposing? You know the OW's name. I know there may be others, but you need to expose this OW.

You won't be having a lifetime of doubt and worry if you (both) choose to follow Dr. Harley's program for recovery. Have a look at this --> How can trust be restored?

Once you take a little break today, then either way, you will begin to work on preparing for exposure. You need to collect more info. You have only scratched the surface thus far, but you will keep at it and it will peel like an onion. Verify every *single* thing that comes out of your husband's mouth. When you find discrepancies, come here and ask us.

Good! No more overnight stays. Are you CERTAIN that he has not had any affairs with people from his work? Or clients? Employees?

I'm not sure about the key logger, but sugarcane or someone else may know. There is also a whole forum here entitled Operation Investigate.

We know that your husband has good qualities, or you would not have married him. Your husband is in the throes of an addiction and it is possible that he truly wants to stop. If so, MB can help him and you, and you can go on to make a new marriage that is better than ever.

That said, yes you DO still need to prepare for Plan B and secure your finances. Prepare. You don't have to do it yet, but you need to be ready NOW when you are still strong and will think of details. Does that make sense?

Here Keylogger Programs

I only know her first name and still not sure it's her real name. Shes not on his fb friends list but I tried searching friends list of people they have in common and found a few first name matches so going to explore those

Yeah I need to be sure if there are any others. He says no but we all know they deny everything at first.

I did more research on the key logger and it seems you can get one to connect in-between computer and keyboard wire, no set up required.

Yep still have plan B in back of my mind - I'm learning it's best To be prepared for all eventualities

Try inputting her phone number on FB. And while you're at it, try inputting that old phone number (the one that he is not contacting any more). Heck, try them all lol.

Also try different spellings of her name. The OW and her entire family in my instance all used alias names on FB. I found one of them through an email or phone (sorry, can't remember), and then BOOM they all were friends of each other and so I had all of their names and friends list (I did know what she looked like though).

Remember to keep this forum secret from your H for a while yet. Be sure to close it and delete the history when you leave your computer.

You're doing great!

No, do not believe one word that comes out of his mouth right now.

He did not tell you the woman's last name? Nope, he did not get the memo yet that he is done with gaslighting you. He is keeping the last name secret so that you will not "harass" her (expose her). He is protecting her.

Ok will try that. In fact I'm going to go back over the phone bills I have to check out some other numbers

Can you hire a PI?

Yep I know he is protecting her (makes me angry!)
because he knows I'll try to look her up and contact her. That's why I'm not really convinced that's her real name. But he doesn't know I have her number so could just call her up anyway. He said that he lied and told her he wasn't married so if that's true I could just call her up and tell her who I am and what's going regardless of not knowing her name. but will try and get him to tell me tonight or just keep searching till i find it. If only I could get my hands on his phone I could learn do much

He has to sleep some time. Wait until he's asleep and get to his phone and put spyware on it and check his contacts. He may have it hidden under a man's name.

If you dial the number and hit send then hang up quickly it will come up with the name he has it saved under.

Also you need to find out who this OW is so you can expose on her side.

Can you hire a PI?

His phone is password protected like everything else in his bloody life! Once I cracked it by watching him carefully as he inputted but by the time I could get my hands on the phone he had changed it! He's a very smart sneaky guy

Can you hire a PI?

Do your best to be cool as a cucumber tonight. Yes, ask questions, but be as pleasant as possible. We all remember how difficult that is.

This time may end up having to be your Plan A before you go to Plan B IF he won't wake up and smell the pig pen.

I agree with BrainHurts. I also think that you need to hire a PI to take some of this stress and thinking away from you right now. In light of what you are going through, at this point does the cost really matter?

Yes, you will need administrator access to install any type of monitoring whether software or hardware. The hardware sticks don't necessarily have software to install, but drivers are necessary, which would require admin access.

If you plug one in without the drivers, it will alert him to its presence when he logs in next.

The ones that go between the keyboard and computer *should* work out for you, although the keystrokes are a bit harder to interpret since there is no other info (program being used, website visited etc), it's just raw text data to my knowledge.
Better than nothing, but harder to interpret.

Aaah ok thanks for the info. To be honest I'm pretty nervous about trying this one as he's pretty computer savvy. Will have a think.....

Will try and be as cool as possible. My defenses are a bit up now though as called to say he's working late - so I'm suspicious....

Also contacted a couple of PI's and the cost is quite a lot, not sure i could pay it especially if i want to put some money aside for Plan B

If you're using one that goes between the keyboard cable and the tower, you'll be fine with that. No way to detect that unless it is physically spotted. If the tower is in an out of the way spot there's little chance of that.

Just be sure you test operation of the computer (from the user acct you can access) to be sure everything works as it should. Gotta be sure the keyboard functions after installation or it will be spotted.

Yes, it is telling that a man who just faced the ruination of his marriage and family would choose to "work late" the very next evening.

Do you want him to "work late"?

If not, call him back and tell him that he needs to come home.

But if you do not pay it, then this can drag on for days and days. Your health and your baby's health cannot afford that.

I totally hear you on wanting to do your own work. I was the same. But I got LUCKY and saw it with my own eyes! Even at THAT, my H lied straight to my face.

You are not dealing with a naive or stupid wayward here. He has gaslighted you successfully for years already, and you are going to have to stop it in its tracks if there is to be hope for recovery.

Did you email Dr Harley?

Agree. I think the PI is worth the $$ in this case.

His "working late" and phone still being password locked = affair is still ON. A PI could probably get the goods on who this OW is which you will need to expose this successfully.

Great, thanks for that

Had a long talk, when he came home, he was very down and depressed, admitted not wanting to come home and face everything.

Hi, I missed this yesterday for some reason, will do today, thanks

I do agree with it's just tricky taking that much funds out of joint account without an explanation.it would easier to do it in bits.

The hardest part about this whole thing is fully expecting WH to beg forgiveness (which he has) and calling OW immediately to end everything. I just sense he feels really bad, he wants to let her down gently but it enrages me. I have made what is a reasonable demand but I probably did cross over into badgering as I told him to call her NOW. I have made it clear it needs to be done without offering her any glimmer of hope. He is struggling with shame, letting everybody down, being a liar etc and I guess the idea of having to go through what he has gone through with me again with her is overwhelming him but hey, that's the price you pay for making bad choices.

Here is what Dr. Harley says about going no contact: "How should an unfaithful spouse tell his lover that their relationship is over? If left to their own devices, many would take a Caribbean cruise to say their final good-byes. Obviously, that will not do. In fact, I recommend that the final good-bye be in the form of a letter, and not in person or even by telephone."

(the red is my emphasis) You can read this whole response HERE

Good for you for demanding that he do it NOW. Nothing wrong with that at all. And no need to badger. He either goes no contact immediately, or he leaves.

ALSO he needs to immediately hand you his phone with his password so that you can see it. He has no doubt already deleted evidence, but if it happens to be an apple phone, you can still plug it into the computer and back it up and thus be able to see his deleted messages with the (free) software by decipher textmessage.

Has he given you his password for his computer?

Has he given you the latest other woman's name? How did they meet? How were they able to carry on the affair?

No contact for life means�.well�it means no contact. It doesn't mean "after he gets a final goodbye". It means�starting now.

Here is an example of what he needs to HAND write to his girlfriend. Then YOU need to take it for posting so that you are certain that it got sent. THIS is the proper way to go no contact for life.

This is taken from the Exposure 101 thread:

[from SAA, pg 58]

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, XXXXX

The letter of No Contact above, highlighted in red, should be his final communication with skanky. It's all about the hurt and betrayal he brought to YOU and nothing about skanky. And that's the way it SHOULD be.

It will be interesting if he actually writes the NC Letter and then you will send it to OW and then you will have the name and can look up her BH's name.

You're missing an important step and that is to expose. Have you exposed on your WH's side?

You need to find out who these OWs are.

He wants to let her down easy? This affair sounds very much ON to me.

Did you do a reverse search on the phone number to verify the name of the OW? There is even an app for that.

Is his phone still password locked?

I am concerned the steps are getting a little messy here. You really need spyware in place and name of OW before you expose, IMO.

I don't think demanding a NCL when his phone is still password locked and hasn't even given you the name of the OW is a good idea either.

Just my 2 cents.

She's in the UK and says there are laws against some of the things we recommend.

I've been pushing for her to find these OW's names and BH. I agree with you that she needs to find the OW. I agree with SQ, this should be your priority.

SP12,

You need to put all your energy into finding out whom these OW are and then prepare for Plan B if he will not end his affairs.

I wonder if the "family" he was having dinners with could be his kids? Your WH has been doing this for awhile and may have fathered others.

Will you find out who these OW are by hiring a PI? He will get the goods.

You have her phone number, correct?

Did you search by phone number? Do a Google search of her number? Do a reverse phone lookup?

SP,

We are really trying to help you here but you need to listen to us.

The worst thing you can do is badger a wayward about ending the affair without exposure. It just doesn't work. In fact, in most cases it just backfires on you because the wayward then takes the affair further underground and just gaslights you.

If you are unwilling to google this OW or do a reverse search on her phone number (I am shocked to hear this is illegal. I have seen many UK posters here and NEVER EVER heard anyone bring this issue up before), then it is imperative that you shell out the bucks to the PI to get the information for you.

Like many others have posted to you, it is really really BAD that this is being unnecessarily dragged out as you are pregnant and dealing with an active wayward is very dangerous for you and the baby.

Recap:
Focus on EXPOSURE. Which you need to know OW's identity for and forget about trying to "talk" your WH out of his affair without it.

What is the deal with spyware on the home computer and phone? BH can you get me up to speed with that?

She said she can't figure out how to get the keylogger on without admin rights. But she was posted by highroad with some excellent information.

She says he has his phone password locked and can't figure it out.

I have asked about a PI, but she says she can't afford it.

Hi everyone,
This will be a bit rushed - have been admitted to hospital as began to feel unwell, not sure yet how long will be in for.
Will try to address your points - sorry if I miss anything

He has broken off things with OW, took persuading as wanted to do face to face I said hell no, he refused to do letter. Did by phone in the end.

Have googled her number etc found nothing, can't do reverse look up here I have looked into it, PI said can get info for me for �150 which is about $250. He has told me her name now anyway but this has all taken its toll and am in hospital not sure for how long they want to monitor me.
Once I am out will update you all more

Thanks you for the help and advice

SP12,

I'm so sorry for your health. Do you think you can send off that email to Dr. Harley?

Dr. Harley states that a truly repentant man who wants to reconcile his marriage should basically be begging on,both knees, willing to do whatever it takes.

Your husband wasn't even willing to write a simple letter!!!

I imagine the stress of the discussion, along with your pregnancy put you in the condition to be hospitalized.

Ask the Vets if you should switch to Plan B now, since the situation has had such a harmful effect on you.

I hope and Pray you have a speedy and full recovery and that your baby is healthy.

I hope you remove the causes of this stress out of your life.

LTL

[quote=BrainHurts]SP12,

I'm so sorry for your health. Do you think you can send off that email to Dr. Harley?[/quote


Thank you - yes have sent the email.

Did you ask Dr. Harley about Plan B?

I would start to prepare for Plan B. Your WH isn't serious about your health and recovery.

A huge red flag is when a Wayward will not even write a NC Letter.

When can you get into Plan B?

Thank you learnedtolate - this is how I feel. I just don't understand it at all, it's made me so ill. Being in hospital feels like a relief if only could have my kids with me

SP12, take care of yourself and your baby! Be strong! My WH cheated on me while i was pregnant too and was very cold, distant and fighting with me through out the pregnancy. But i was only suspicious about the A, discover-day was a month after the delivery. Listen to the Vets here.

Can you find some relatives or friends to help you?

Bless!

I'm so sorry for your pain SP12. It's obvious from your writing that you are a kind and patient person, so now it is time to be kind and patient with yourself. The most important thing right now is the health of you and your baby.

Good job on emailing Dr. Harley.

Lots of Hugs!

Your WH is very very dangerous to not only your health but to your baby's. He does not have yours and your children's best interest in mind, which is very typical for a wayward.

This is very serious. Women have suffered nervous breakdowns and other long term consequences to their health in Plan A. That's why it is only recommend for a very BRIEF period of time, no longer than a couple of weeks. You need to focus on getting better for your children and you won't be able to do that dealing with this kind of stress.

I would recommend exposing his affair to close family and friends so that you can get the support and help that you desperately need and move into Plan B.

Hugs.

SP12, I am so very sorry for your pain. Please, please follow Susie's advice. Your husband is endangering your health with his affair<s>. Expose his affair today to your family and friends.

Go to him TODAY and give him one last opportunity to make this right. If he won't make it right, you must separate from him immediately. You cannot afford to be around such a dangerous, reckless person in your state. He will cause you to have a nervous breakdown.

Here is what he must do immediately:

1. come completely clean, giving you all the names, contact information, everything about his OW

2. exchange phones with you and cancel his email account, facebook account and any other venue that was used to facilitate his affair

3. agree to never spend the night apart from you again. If he has a traveling job, then he has to find a way to be with you every night until he finds a new job

4. send his OW a no contact letter that can be hand delivered to the mailbox by you

5. Allow you to look at everything on his phone immediately [give him no opportunity to erase and hide things]

If he won't agree to those things, you should ask him to leave immediately and then we will help you go into Plan B. This is what Dr Harley would tell you to do.

Here is the list of EPs from his book Surviving an Affair.

From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.


Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

How are you doing SP12?

Hi, thanks for thinking of me. Was in hospital a few days but home now, me and baby are doing fine.

I am moving onto plan b, reason being that I felt like WH does not appreciate that I didn't kick him out and was willing to work on relationship.he showed reluctance to break off affair, when we discuss our relationship he seems more concerned on dwelling on what wasn't working instead of trying to move forward. Also he says that due to nature of his job it is inevitable he will need to sleep away from home - an idea which I don't think should even be entertained right now. A few nights ago, he worked away and came home same night and was very moody and hardly spoke to me just to prove how tiring the drive was and that I was being unreasonable asking him to come home!!???

So plan b it is, will ask My friend will help mediate contact between us.

I also emailed Dr Joyce for advice, she asked if I wanted to be a caller but not sure of feasibility of it as I think we are 6 hours ahead and think the timing would be off

Yep, that was my WH.


Yep, that is exactly what my WH wanted to dwell upon too.

My WH's affair was still secretly active.


Good decision for you to go into Plan B and I hope that you have a good support system in place. Please let the vets here guide you through the procedure and let the rest of us support you through it as well. The first couple of weeks are not very easy, but life becomes sooooo much easier and calmer once you adjust to life in Plan B.

SP12, it was soooo good to read that you and baby are home from hospital and doing fine.

I'm glad that you have written to Dr. Harley and that Joyce has already been in contact with you. You are in the best hands now!

I think that even while you are going to Plan B, that you still need to do an exposure. Exposure is our biggest tool for busting up the affair. I do realize that you would need to pay to hire a PI, so maybe you can ask for Dr. Harley's opinion regarding this?

Good. You need Plan B, unless he is willing to do all of the things that MelodyLane posted to you above. Anything less and you are setting yourself up for a false recovery.


Your WH's attitude is COMPLETELY NORMAL for a wayward who has not been exposed and hasn't ended the affair. Which I am sorry to tell you, he hasn't.

Please give your friend a copy of the IM Training Guide

and also please read the Plan B links in my signature line.

Folks sometimes think they can do a "semi" dark Plan B. But that will actually mean that you are in Plan C, which is most likely to lead to divorce and have consequences for your health and well-being. Please don't do this.

Hello to anyone still following this thread. A lot has happened.
I believed him when he said he ended things but his behaviour quickly reverted back to old ways and staying out of town again. Then something told me to set up voice recorder (hadnt used it since confession) before leaving to go and see a friend and when i got back i listened to it and found the affair had not ended. I was very upset and shaking and So I wrote him a plan b letter immediately - he called and text which I ignored but he didnt come back to the house.
I think this surprised him as realised I was very serious.

I was very reluctant to expose as I was certain this would ruin any chance of a reconciliation as I know his character but it was the telling to his mum that did
the trick. (even though she said a few things to me that angered me like I must be the problem, I must have done something! Anyway........ )

Long story short, he asked to come home to talk and we are making a start to reconcile. He admitted he was reluctant to try again as had a lot of unforgiveness and bitterness but after talking to his mum and a couple of friends that know he realised he wants to try. He has agreed to end affair, the right way this time with me witnessing, agreed to be more transparent etc.

It's very late here now but we are going to sit down and draw up a plan to rebuild our marriage.

It is ironic that tomorrow will also be our wedding anniversary.

We know it will be a long journey but hoping we make it. Yesterday I had no hope at all!

Thank you to all who cared enough to comment and give advice, I know I did not stumble across this site by accident, it has helped immensely.

I will be honest, getting over the deceit and knowing he was sexually involved with someone else will be hard for me to get over. If anyone could speak from experience or post any links that may help me I would be grateful. The book SAA probably has tips will have to look through it again. I am also getting individual counselling as my self esteem and self worth have taken a tumble and need to build these back up as it will help our recovery I think.

Thanks again all

Is this a typo? It is NOT exposing that will ruin your chance of a reconciliation.

Dr. Harley knows the character of waywards very well and says that exposure is usually the first step to recovery of the marriage, for those marriages that recover.

Please don't hold on to any hope that you will recover your marriage without exposure. You might as well start preparing for divorce if you are not going to expose. I am sorry.

In fact, even if you decide to divorce, exposure usually still has a lot of advantages. Family and friends need to know the truth about what happened.

You need to let him know that if he wants to stay married to you, he will have to commit to no nights apart ever, for life, for any reason. If he does not make this commitment, you need to separate from him. And if he ever does spend the night apart from you, you need to be out the door.

If you are not willing to be this committed, then I would not hold out much hope for this marriage.

There is no sense trying to use snooping tools on someone who won't even commit to no nights apart. He hasn't accepted the conditions for recovery. Snooping tools don't accomplish anything - you already know he is wayward! And you already know he is not following the plan for recovery and recovery is impossible!


Will he commit to no nights apart, for life?


He is not serious. As long as he is going on about HIS feelings instead of yours, he is not serious and taking him back is a terrible and dangerous risk. I mean, cry me a river - he felt bad because he wasn't sure he could forgive you?? Baloney.


Don't bother planning to rebuild if you are ever going to tolerate a single night apart, ever again. It's not going to work, and there is no point.

Also, don't draw up your own plan - that's a surefire way to make mistakes. Pretty much everybody posting on this site ruined their marriages with their own best thinking. Follow the plan that actually works - Dr. Harley's Surviving an Affair. Of course, that is going to require exposure, and no nights apart. If you try to make a plan that doesn't include those, your marriage is not going to recover, and you should see an attorney immediately and arrange a divorce to spare yourself a lot of heartache.


You still should not have any hope since you are planning to keep his affair a secret - it won't work.


If you know you didn't come here by accident - why are you eliminating the key parts of the plan?


There is no point to any of this - you can't just make yourself feel different. He will have to actually change. Is his affair still secret? Is he still going to spend nights apart from you? Then he hasn't changed, and your feelings will never change, no matter what tips and techniques you use or how hard you try.

It is all here and has been posted to you already - no need to create your own plan:

Is the only person exposed to his own mother?

You need a full exposure to everyone of influence in both of your lives to hold him accountable and to not spin a horrible tale about how bad you were and pushed him to the affair.

Are you going to follow the precise plan to the letter?

LTL

NOT exposing ruins any chance of recovery. Keeping the affair secret ruins your marriage and helps the affair.


Anything other than the plan I gave you from the book Surviving an Affair will fail.


Hope is not a plan. The only workable plan is the one we posted to you, which begins with wide spread exposure and an end to the overnight travel. Unless that happens, you should have no hope at all.

Exposure has been done to all in our circles. I was just saying the most effective ones were to his mother and closest friend as they seemed to council some sense into him.
We have discussed all things suggested including full divulgence of info, cutting contact, no nights apart - most of these he suggested himself. As I said in last post it was late nearing midnight and we had a long talk and we decided to do all the rest in the morning. I will be using the plan suggested to me - I know the things I need for us to make this work and won't accept anything less.
Hope is not a plan of course but I've gotta have hope in the change of his behaviour and his willingness this time - before There was only reluctance and excuses.
I'm not naive enough to think all is now well but at least we have a starting point, before this it was a non starter.
We'll give our relationship a good go using the plan and do our best

Did he write a NC letter for you to send?

When is he going to get tested for STD/I?

When will he change all his contact information?

Hi SPD, nice to welcome a fellow brit!

Very glad to hear about the exposures and the end to overnights. I do however share everyone's wariness that he plans on throwing you some crumbs though, based on your description of his 'remorse'.

Blame towards you mixed with saying he wants to 'try' rather than 'do' is a common tactic. It tends to mean 'How can I appease you while I take my SSL underground'. That doesn't mean your efforts are not working; they are, but you are not home and dry yet.

Also keep in mind his claim his mother and friend have counselled him 'to try', is just a claim from a proven liar. For all you know they support his affair - certainly his mothers comments to you were not encouraging. It could well be other targets, or his own shame, had more influence. Most likely he is playing nice simply to prevent you from similarly exposing the OW.

Give him the list of things he must do to stay in the marriage and be VERY cool and firm. 'I require it to stay'. I predict you will run into some trouble when it comes to getting the identities of the multiple OW or an NC letter, particularly to the latest one as his main priority has been protecting her.

Probably when you have her identity and exposures are done on her side too you will see a lot more progress. He will be furious initially of course, (he was FAR too calm about his own exposures for my liking) but it will destroy the A.

First and foremost - paying for that PI to look up the mobile phone number you have is well worth the money. (Sorry I wasn't around earlier to explain the data protection act to our American cousins!). She should be exposed as outlined in Melody Lane's signature and thoroughly run off. This should be done without your H's knowledge.

Also take very good care of yourself and that baby. Are you eating and sleeping?

Yep - this stuff about how it's going to be a long journey just sounds like he's not really serious yet. He's going to "try." He's reserving the right to fail, up front. Dr. Harley would not advise any woman to put up with that, because it is going to be a long, miserable false recovery.

Many of us knew the affair was not over and told you this was useless unless you exposed....but you disappeared on us.

Please keep posting. Because you feel you had some sort of breakthrough with this "talk" with your WH, doesn't mean you are out of the woods, not nearly.

We are trying to prevent another false recovery - it's not worth it to go through that pain and it just makes it harder in the long run to actually save your M.

What actions has your WH actually taken? Has he written the NCL fashioned after the one in SAA? Has he changed ALL his contact information?

Exactly what has he done to make all areas of his life transparent to you and what EPs exactly have been implemented?

(Dr. Harley, Five Steps to Romantic Love)

Sorry for disappearing but I needed to get things clear in my mind. I began to realise I was not dealing with a normal person. I was given the silent treatment for a week after our talk, he still stayed away overnight despite anything i said, he suggested in a roundabout way that I tell his mum that his affair was a 'misunderstanding'. I continue to be blamed for things and every conversation with him leaves me feeling confused. After some reading online I think I might be dealing with a narcissist.
He still talks to and probably still sees the Ow and I think there is another one. (I know you're all saying 'told you so'

After being so desperate to save this marriage and to do whatever it takes, at this point I could do without him. I need to be away from the lies, deceit, manipulation and general disregard for me.
I asked him to move out and he agreed but kept stalling - telling me he was doing me a favour by sticking around. He has now put a deposit down on a place and should move in the next few days. He has signed a 6 month lease for now.
I have only a few weeks before I have baby, I need some peace, don't know how I made it this far to be honest.
I can't save a marriage by myself, this man will not follow any plan -only does what he wants to do and what suits him.
Maybe God will perform a miracle on him during these 6 months.

Not a normal person no, but a very normal wayward. Everything you've described is typical.



We hear that a lot. No he is just a garden variety wayward. Behaviour like this, gas lighting, blaming and trying to confuse you is very normal while A contact continues.

You don't ask a wayward to leave - that will never happen. You are half his addiction. Change the locks while he is out and have his things sent on with a Plan B letter.

You don't need a miracle, you need to set very basic boundaries. God won't do for you what you can easily do for yourself.

You'll damage your health unless you get Plan B preps done. Do you know how to do this and have you read the thread?

Yep, I know about plan b - was going to do it last month before false reconciliation.

What preps have you done and can you lock him out of the house and implement no contact?

Do you have an IM?

Did you ever end up exposing?

SP12, I say this kindly: You need to stop talking and start listening to us.

Your WH is not a narcissist. He is acting like a TYPICAL wayward who is still in the throes of his affair. We asked you questions that would help us determine whether he was serious about giving up the OW and you , again, disappeared on us.

You need to stop following Plan SP12 and start following MB. We can help you but you need to start listening.

Sorry for the but it is extremely difficult as a fellow BS to watch another stand on the train tracks and cover their ears as others (US) are yelling that you need to get off or you are going to get hit.

Sigh.