Marriage Builders
Hi everyone.
I've found this website most helpful.

My story:
I'm a normal bloke, late 40's, my wife is a normal, Christian woman, early 40's. We have been married 19 years and have two children - one's 16, the other 13. We live in our own home and we have our own business. My wife works in her chosen career, (not in our business) she's in a professional role. I love my wife dearly and love my kids.

Almost 2 weeks ago, the bomb dropped, and I learnt that my wife was having an affair with a married, but separated man. (He's been having difficulties in his marriage for the last 2 years) She has described it to me as an "emotional affair" but it has gone to "physical" too, once, she tells me.

She, at first, denied it, saying it's all lies. Then she came semi-clean and admitted the "emotional" side. Lastly, she admitted the "physical" part a few days later.

She says she no longer is in love with me and am contemplating getting her own place. She feels she is at a crossroads in her life.
At this point, she has told a close friend and I have discussed the matter with her pastor. I say "her pastor" because I'm not a practising Christian but I know her pastor well, through work and feel I can turn to him for help, without involving family or friends. So far, none of our (other) friends or children or family know about this.

She has called it off with the other man and obviously is quite embarrassed about it. I have been super supportive and understanding and have tried to talk about it, trying to re-assure her of my continued love, and she has decided to see a councillor.

What concerns me is that she is not wanting to see the councillor with me and the councillor is encouraging her to first see her alone. She is not prepared to give me any hope of reconciliation and simply says that she has decisions to make.

I have been a loving and supportive husband and we have had a good, physical and emotional relationship for the last 20 years together. We work hard and we are both active in sport, don't drink excessively or have any other unhealthy habits. My wife assures me that I am a good husband. She says: "It's not you".

I have a stressful job and I admit I can sometimes be a bit distracted as result of that. Life is tough in our industry and money is sometime tight. The man she has cheated on me with is not exactly that well off either, so it's not the money.

We have plenty of common interests but my wife has the same sporting interest as does this bloke, so they trained together and got close.

I am devastated. Not because of the affair, which I can accept because it can happen easily as I have read and happens to lots of people. What stresses me out beyond bearable capacity is the fact hat my wife seems unconcerned about ending a 20 year relationship to somehow "find herself".

I don't know what to do. She says I need to give her "time". I feel shut out of the decision making process and, while I fully understand the lack of any physical interest in me at the moment, I am struggling with my life in that it all feels like a lie. I am not coping, which is affecting my work and I am feeling emotionally drained and in danger of calling it quits.

We had a lovely Christmas holiday together with no indication from her that anything was going on - and yet she was already having an affair. We go away without the kids from time to time for "us time" and, the last time that occurred, there was also no indication from her that anything was wrong between us.

I remain committed to sorting this out and I have forgiven my wife the infidelity. I love her and cannot imagine a life without her. I do not want to put my kids through this, but that is not my primary consideration. Primary is my love for my wife.

Any advice will be appreciated, thank you.

Kind regards,
Mark
Hello Mark, welcome to Marriage Builders. I am sorry for the reasons that have brought you here. You are in the right place if you want to save your marriage and are willing and able to take some very tough steps.

First off, the reason your wife is considering leaving you is because she is high on the fog of her affair. Affairs are addictions very much alcohol or drug addictions. They absolutely impair the addicts judgment.

But, we do have a plan that usually works if you are willing to take proactive steps. It is a 2 part plan, called Plan A. The first part of this plan is to destroy the affair. If the affair is destroyed, the spouse is much more willing to work on the marriage. Affairs thrive on secrecy and fantasy, so the greatest weapon against the affair is exposure. Dr Harley, the founder of Marriage Builders, is a clinical psychologist and author of the book Surviving an Affair and here is how he describes exposure:

Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
"Exposure is very likely to end the affair, lifting the fog that has overcome the unfaithful spouse, helping him or her become truly repentant and willing to put energy and effort into a full marital recovery. In my experience with thousands of couples who struggle with the fallout of infidelity, exposure has been the single most important first step toward recovery. It not only helps end the affair, but it also provides support to the betrayed spouse, giving him or her stamina to hold out for ultimate recovery."

The second part of the plan is present yourself as an inviting, attractive option. Many betrayed spouses make the mistake of lashing out in anger. When you don't' act like that, it gives the wayward spouse second thoughts and often attracts them back to marriage *IF* the affair is crumbling. This is why exposure and fighting against the affair is so important.

It is a 2 prong approach that is the most effective plan I have ever seen. Those of us here that are in recovered marriages, attribute our recoveries to exposure.

Please go read the exposure thread linked in my signature along with the links in the "start here first" thread at the top of the forum. Come back and we can help you with next steps.
Hi melody

Thank you, I have read all of those, and I'm afraid I'm none the wiser.

The first thing I did, on the morning I found out, was to go to the man's work, go sit down in his office, and politely told him to leave my wife alone. I have had to follow this up once in reply to a txt message from him to her, by saying "Leave my wife alone". He has asked me "what about my happiness" and I replied that he needed to find his happiness with someone that's not been married for 19 years, most of those very happily.

I have not yet told the kids as I don't think it's going to be beneficial to my relationship with my wife to "out" her to the kids. Likewise our friends. I will obviously change my position should she continue seeing him.

What steps can I take to help her engage with me in the path to recovery?

How do I make her see there is a future for us?

Kind regards,
Mark

I insisted that my wife cut all contact with him and it seems she has.
Originally Posted by Mark_NZ
Hi melody

Thank you, I have read all of those, and I'm afraid I'm none the wiser.

The first thing I did, on the morning I found out, was to go to the man's work, go sit down in his office, and politely told him to leave my wife alone. I have had to follow this up once in reply to a txt message from him to her, by saying "Leave my wife alone". He has asked me "what about my happiness" and I replied that he needed to find his happiness with someone that's not been married for 19 years, most of those very happily.

Like I said, you should expose the affair. It is a very effective approach. Did you read my exposure thread? That will run him off. He is probably very married and even if he is not, exposing the affair wide and far will wreck it. Other men are abject cowards who do not want the trouble.

Quote
I have not yet told the kids as I don't think it's going to be beneficial to my relationship with my wife to "out" her to the kids. Likewise our friends. I will obviously change my position should she continue seeing him.

It will be extremely beneficial to expose to your children and all of your friends and family. It ruins the fantasy. The children need to know she is wrecking their family over a big fat nothing. They have a right to address her reckless behavior since it affects them.

Quote
What steps can I take to help her engage with me in the path to recovery?

Expose the affair.

Quote
How do I make her see there is a future for us?

Expose the affair.
Expose!
I think it's also important to expose as widely and as quickly as possible. To be most effective, you want the exposure to drop like an atom bomb on the affair.
First of all wake up!
Second you are in denial!
Third, expose!

If you dont want to follow advice here, i would suggest you go to another site or do nothing(it is the same thing)
You need to expose the affair to kill it. The OM has already told you he is more concerned about his happiness than your marriage. If you are more concerned about protecting your wife's image vs killing the affair, you will not recover your marriage.

Welcome to MB, Mark
Originally Posted by Mark_NZ
Thank you, I have read all of those, and I'm afraid I'm none the wiser.

If you read all that then you are wiser but are more afraid and choose to not follow the prescribed MB plan.
Originally Posted by Mark_ NZ
I learnt that my wife was having an affair with a married, but separated man

Contact the OM's BW and expose. They probably aren't separated and he is lying to your WW about being separated.
Firstly, thank you everyone for the response.
I understand the advice of "expose" but we live in a small, small town, so I don't particularly want the whole world to know what's going on. It's not how I'd prefer to play it.

I'm hoping to hear therefore if there are any other options - first - before going that route.

Secondly, Everything I wrote are facts. If I say a man has been separated from his wife for two years, then that is so.

I'm also 99.9% sure that my wife has not been in contact with him since the truth came out. Again, as I said - it's a small town.
You have no hope without exposure. It hard to fight an affair when you are an enabler
Originally Posted by Mark_NZ
Firstly, thank you everyone for the response.
I understand the advice of "expose" but we live in a small, small town, so I don't particularly want the whole world to know what's going on. It's not how I'd prefer to play it.

I'm hoping to hear therefore if there are any other options - first - before going that route.

Secondly, Everything I wrote are facts. If I say a man has been separated from his wife for two years, then that is so.

I'm also 99.9% sure that my wife has not been in contact with him since the truth came out. Again, as I said - it's a small town.

In that case, there is nothing we can do for you. Hiding the affair only serves to enable it and causes it drag on for years. The longer you hide it, the more entrenched it becomes and the less likely your wife will ever wake up from the fantasy.

Dr. Harley addresses the practice of enabling in this radio clip: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2815

I wish you the best....
You sound like so many(including me) newly betrayed men. There are no new situations, your story is the same as most.
The steps and plan does not give alternatives just because you live in a small town.
If you dont want to follow the steps here, then i suggest you do nothing.

Good luck!!
Originally Posted by Mark_NZ
I understand the advice of "expose" but we live in a small, small town, so I don't particularly want the whole world to know what's going on. It's not how I'd prefer to play it.

No one is advising you to expose to the whole town. Key exposure targets are OMW, OM's parents/sibilings, your family, WW's family, your children, and any close friends of influence. That is maybe 15-20 people.

If you live in a such a small town and OM lives in the same town, you won't recover anyway. Your WW and him will always be in close proximity and it will be death by a thousand cuts for you. If OM isn't going anywhere then you need to move.

Your WW doesn't need space to "find herself." All she will be doing in carrying on her affair without your interference. She will be "finding herself" in OM's bed.

Does WW work with this loser?
It's particularly silly to not expose to the children. This affair has been going on some time and you have NO idea what they have seen and overheard. Tell them the truth and encourage them to do the same. He's a heartbeat from being their stepdad and the sex abuse risks are enormous when a stepfather is an OM.

Any child over 4 will be aware something is very wrong and given your wife's nasty new personality, they need to know it's not their fault.

It would certainly kill the A if the whole town knew, but you don't need to go that far.

Just ensure you tell your family, her family and her workplace if a workplace affair. His family, his Betrayed Wife (separated my eye!) his friends and friends of you and your wife.

Talking to two crackheads, who already know they are destroying their families will do nothing. Talking to the waywards indeed! They've been practicing a show down with you for ages.

Like talking to a half brained drunk, right?


But invite an intervention of loved ones to come watch them shoot up - it stops being fun.

Is your wife under the impression she can cheat on you with silent impunity? Telling no one? That you will allow her to teach the children how to lie and cover up the A?

I think that's a very poor and uncaring call.



The ages of 13 and 16 are vulnerable ages. Do you really want them to learn how to lie and cheat? To trust some strange bloke mum is powerless against?

Lying is like covering up a nuke with a blanket. They will find out and they will discover you don't have this in hand.

You see, all waywards ask for 'space' and to 'find themselves'. Tell her to look in her shoes.

It's code for 'I can't stop. Its an addiction. Take the bottle away - and endure my fury for a while when you do'.

Originally Posted by indiegirl
Dear me.

It seems like every other post from newbie BSs on this forum seems to contain the phrase 'My WS says....'

When we know they all say the same things!

This is ok (ish), except when followed by the fatal 'I do believe him/her'

The worst ones then follow up with a desire to 'trust'.

I therefore submit a golden rule.......

NEVER TAKE THE WORD OF A WAYWARD. IF THEY SAY THE SKY IS BLUE -LOOK UP TO CHECK. IT SOUNDS TRUE BUT IT IS PROBABLY RAINING.

Now everyone of us has been there, been gaslighted, been lied to very convincingly by people who we love and know to have honest and upstanding pasts. (oh yes, it's not just yours!)

That goes out of the window when they become addicts however.

A truly repentent wayward will jump through hoops to prove themselves with actions like an NC letter or a polygraph.

Words are just too inadequate and they know that.

Here is my top ten of things waywards lie about

1) It was an EA only
It was a PA, but if I tell you the truth that will have to stop and you will probably leave me.
2)It was a PA, but we only did it once/oral/kissing
I minimimize what I am ashamed of, though there is no logic in doing so.
3)It is your fault for not meeting my ENs
This makes me feel less guilty about my non existent boundaries with the opposite sex
4)Our marriage has been miserable for years
This makes me feel less guilty about my non existent boundaries with the opposite sex
5)I do not love you - I love the OP
I have betrayed my morals and everything I once believed in. I must love the OP - or else I am just stupid for risking so much. Actually I am just greedy and stupid. Dont tell anyone.
6)I want a divorce
But I will not bother filing. This is an idle threat to scare you into submission.
7) She/he is just a friend
That I value more than your discomfort with their presence.
8) I need privacy, that's all
So I can cheat on you
9) I dont need an NC letter because there is no contact
Please dont make me give up my cake
10)You are jealous/controlling/demanding
You are getting really warm and I dont like it.

Can I please invite others to share lies they were told/told themselves that were really convincing and why they should NOT be believed without proof?

Cheers.


I didn't include the all time classic though: 'It's like I love you but I'm not in love with you.'
Btw, separated is still married. He is keeping his wife on the backburner. You must tell her your wife destroyed her marriage.

Originally Posted by Mark_NZ
I'm also 99.9% sure that my wife has not been in contact with him since the truth came out. Again, as I said - it's a small town.


It must be a small town if they can overhear her on her burner phone!

Besides, once you're gone its lots of space to get back in touch with him.

She will oust you before getting down to it in the affair.

Thank you Indiegirl for your very informative post, it's been most helpful.

Firstly, it seems I was wrong on the 99.9% part. Duh, me.

Found out Thursday morning before work what's actually been going on by doing a bit of snooping on the computer. Went to my wife's work and demanded the truth. She's not too happy with me about that; Claims I did not have the right to approach her at work. Luckily for her, only two colleagues noticed something was going on. Quite frankly, I was so annoyed at the lying that I did not care right then. Obviously, I don't want to embarrass her, but I won't live a lie.

I shared my story with her one colleague who happens to be a good family friend. Enormous weight off my back. Just being able to talk to a good friend has been great.

We've had a good weekend, so far, talking through it all. It's been very painful hearing about her feelings for the man, but at least we're talking. Progress!

I took the opportunity to re-read a part of Will Harley's very good book, Love Busters - Overcoming the Habits that destroy romantic love. Some great pointers in there. Specifically chapter 13 - Recovering from the Love Buster Infidelity. "Infidelity is an addiction to a lover." and "Dishonesty is the primary agent of infidelity."

I love my wife, despite all this. I love our marriage and I want to repair the damage. I hope we can work through this. I'm not giving up on her. The affair's been going on for a few months, so there's much damage to be undone.

On Monday night we're having counselling with her pastor and his wife. Wish us luck!


Originally Posted by Mark_NZ
Thank you Indiegirl for your very informative post, it's been most helpful.

Firstly, it seems I was wrong on the 99.9% part. Duh, me.

Found out Thursday morning before work what's actually been going on by doing a bit of snooping on the computer. Went to my wife's work and demanded the truth. She's not too happy with me about that; Claims I did not have the right to approach her at work. Luckily for her, only two colleagues noticed something was going on. Quite frankly, I was so annoyed at the lying that I did not care right then. Obviously, I don't want to embarrass her, but I won't live a lie.

I shared my story with her one colleague who happens to be a good family friend. Enormous weight off my back. Just being able to talk to a good friend has been great.

We've had a good weekend, so far, talking through it all. It's been very painful hearing about her feelings for the man, but at least we're talking. Progress!

I took the opportunity to re-read a part of Will Harley's very good book, Love Busters - Overcoming the Habits that destroy romantic love. Some great pointers in there. Specifically chapter 13 - Recovering from the Love Buster Infidelity. "Infidelity is an addiction to a lover." and "Dishonesty is the primary agent of infidelity."

I love my wife, despite all this. I love our marriage and I want to repair the damage. I hope we can work through this. I'm not giving up on her. The affair's been going on for a few months, so there's much damage to be undone.

On Monday night we're having counselling with her pastor and his wife. Wish us luck!
When you say "found out what has been going on", what was that? What exactly did you discover?

When you went to our wife's work and demanded to know the truth, what did she tell you?

So you told one colleague, and you are having counselling with the pastor and his wife. Have you researched their history of counselling after infidelity? What are their qualifications in marital counselling, and what is their success rate with rebuilding marriages after an affair?

How are you going to ensure no contact in the future?

Are you going to take any of the advice you were given on this thread?
Originally Posted by Mark_NZ
I love my wife, despite all this. I love our marriage and I want to repair the damage. I hope we can work through this. I'm not giving up on her. The affair's been going on for a few months, so there's much damage to be undone.

On Monday night we're having counselling with her pastor and his wife. Wish us luck!

WE will wish you luck since you will need it in the absence of a PLAN. No plan = no hope. You have no plan here so this is a hopeless situation. Did you want to save your marriage, Sir? Or are you here to blog about a marriage that could be saved if you would just follow a PLAN. Your pastor does not have a plan, I assure you.
Originally Posted by Mark_NZ
my wife has the same sporting interest as does this bloke, so they trained together and got close.
How are you going to assure no contact from now on, in your small town?
Originally Posted by Mark_NZ
Found out Thursday morning before work what's actually been going on by doing a bit of snooping on the computer.
How was she contacting him?
Mobile, but not saved to contacts, and deleting every txt and call record, but billing system lists all numbers called or txt'd.
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by Mark_NZ
Thank you Indiegirl for your very informative post, it's been most helpful.

Firstly, it seems I was wrong on the 99.9% part. Duh, me.

Found out Thursday morning before work what's actually been going on by doing a bit of snooping on the computer. Went to my wife's work and demanded the truth. She's not too happy with me about that; Claims I did not have the right to approach her at work. Luckily for her, only two colleagues noticed something was going on. Quite frankly, I was so annoyed at the lying that I did not care right then. Obviously, I don't want to embarrass her, but I won't live a lie.

I shared my story with her one colleague who happens to be a good family friend. Enormous weight off my back. Just being able to talk to a good friend has been great.

We've had a good weekend, so far, talking through it all. It's been very painful hearing about her feelings for the man, but at least we're talking. Progress!

I took the opportunity to re-read a part of Will Harley's very good book, Love Busters - Overcoming the Habits that destroy romantic love. Some great pointers in there. Specifically chapter 13 - Recovering from the Love Buster Infidelity. "Infidelity is an addiction to a lover." and "Dishonesty is the primary agent of infidelity."

I love my wife, despite all this. I love our marriage and I want to repair the damage. I hope we can work through this. I'm not giving up on her. The affair's been going on for a few months, so there's much damage to be undone.

On Monday night we're having counselling with her pastor and his wife. Wish us luck!
When you say "found out what has been going on", what was that? What exactly did you discover?

When you went to our wife's work and demanded to know the truth, what did she tell you?

So you told one colleague, and you are having counselling with the pastor and his wife. Have you researched their history of counselling after infidelity? What are their qualifications in marital counselling, and what is their success rate with rebuilding marriages after an affair?

How are you going to ensure no contact in the future?

Are you going to take any of the advice you were given on this thread?

Full physical and emotional relationship.

Pastor has helped many couples. I believe he follows the same principles as posted here.

No contact will be impossible, but possibly manageable. Will need to think about how we deal with that one.

Yes, I'm following the advice from MarriageBuilders.
Melody, with all due respect: Don't knock our pastor - he has helped many people, successfully, using the same principles as you propose.

So, yes, we do have a plan.
Originally Posted by Mark_NZ
Melody, with all due respect: Don't knock our pastor - he has helped many people, successfully, using the same principles as you propose.

So, yes, we do have a plan.

We will see if that is true. The plan for saving your marriage is on this checklist that can be found in the book Surviving an Affair. Is this the plan he is advising?

From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.


Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.




Originally Posted by Mark_NZ
No contact will be impossible, but possibly manageable. Will need to think about how we deal with that one.

If no contact is "impossible," then recovery will be impossible. No contact for life is step one. You can't go onto Step TWO until you have done Step ONE.

Quote
Yes, I'm following the advice from MarriageBuilders.

No you are not following Marriage Builders. Not even close.
Originally Posted by Mark_NZ
No contact will be impossible, but possibly manageable. Will need to think about how we deal with that one.
If she remains in contact with the OM the affair is still on. There's no hope in recovery if she remains in contact. The OM is her drug and she needs to be cut off from him.

Who all have you exposed to? Who on OM's side?
Originally Posted by Mark_NZ
No contact will be impossible, but possibly manageable. Will need to think about how we deal with that one.

Yes, I'm following the advice from MarriageBuilders.
You are not following the advice from Dr Harley, founder of Marriage Builders, if you are not doing all that is necessary to ensure NC for life.

Dr. Harley in Coping with Infidelity: Part 2
How Should Affairs End?


Never see or communicate with a former lover

Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.

The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through he11. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

<snip>

We don't know if R.J. still sees his lover, but he says he has broken off all contact. In many cases where a person is still in town, that's hard to prove. But one thing's for sure, if he ever does see his lover, it will put him in a state of perpetual withdrawal from his addiction, and make the resolution of his marriage essentially impossible. In fact, one of the reasons he is not recovering after three months of separation may be that he is not being truthful about the separation.

Entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

How to Survive an Affair chapter in HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS
p. 177

...I have seen husbands build new and wonderful relationships with their wives but then go back to their lovers after five or six years of what appeared to be marital bliss. When I ask them why, they inevitably tell me they miss the woman terribly and still love her. At the same time they stoutly affirm they love their wives dearly and would not think of leaving them.

I believe a man like this has told the truth. He is hopelessly entangled and needs all the help possible to be kept away from his lover and stay faithful to his wife. I often recommend that a man once involved in an affair come in to see me every three to six months on an indefinite basis, just to talk about how things are going and to let me know how successfully he has stayed away from his lover. He must resign himself to a lifetime without her. He must certainly not work with his former lover and should probably live in some other city or state. Even with those restrictions the desire for her company persists...

Some radio clips where Dr Harley addresses the absolute importance of ending all contact for life: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=652

...........this radio clip is the typical outcome when a couple does not move away from the affair partner. This WH, Bob, and his OW lived a mile apart and the affair has been on and off for 3 1/2 years. The BW is now divorcing him and their little boy is severely depressed. This is what happens when one ignores Dr Harley's recommendations for NO CONTACT FOR LIFE. We have seen this happen over and over again on the SAA board over the years.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2716
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2717
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2718
Originally Posted by Mark_NZ
Pastor has helped many couples. I believe he follows the same principles as posted here.
What are those principles? What does he encourage couples to do?
As explained prior, I own my own business. We cannot move as we cannot relocate the business. The man she fell for also owns his own business, same town. He won't move.

So, the issue is if we can't move, and I cannot force him to move, then it goes without saying, that, in a small town, our paths will cross. I have to manage that.

Luckily, his wife wants him back, so hopefully, they sort their problems out, as we are working through ours.

Please understand that we cannot move. It's not that it's not "practical". The reality is that various contractual obligations which stand for some years prevent me from moving the business. That is the way it is. I find it hard to believe that I'm the first person to seek help here who has a problem like this. I'm sure there must be many people who cannot just up and move.
Who all have you exposed to?
Originally Posted by Mark_NZ
As explained prior, I own my own business. We cannot move as we cannot relocate the business. The man she fell for also owns his own business, same town. He won't move.

So, the issue is if we can't move, and I cannot force him to move, then it goes without saying, that, in a small town, our paths will cross. I have to manage that.

Luckily, his wife wants him back, so hopefully, they sort their problems out, as we are working through ours.

Please understand that we cannot move. It's not that it's not "practical". The reality is that various contractual obligations which stand for some years prevent me from moving the business. That is the way it is. I find it hard to believe that I'm the first person to seek help here who has a problem like this. I'm sure there must be many people who cannot just up and move.

I am so sorry to hear it. frown But, it is a free country and you have every right to sacrifice your marriage for your business. No one would fault you for that.
Originally Posted by Mark_NZ
Please understand that we cannot move.

I would only add that you WILL NOT move. Unless you are indentured servants, you CAN move. But again, it is your choice to sacrifice your marriage for your business. That is your right.
you can put someone in charge of the bussiness and start a second bussiness in another place.
Mark, I'm so sorry. D Day #2 will hurt even worse, but at least you will have more of a clue then.

Come back when your marriage (or even yourself) comes first.

Mark, you've just given your addict the perfect set up to carry on.

She will wring her hands and 'try hard' with your pastor. I am sure he will try hard too.

I'm sure he is a terrific pastor with those who genuinely need him but he has no power over free will.

Then she has a more face saving reason to leave because she 'tried'. This is a gift to an addict. They don't have to stop and their conscience is appeased too.

She is also well aware that you have no clue how strongly she feels and how lost she is. She despises your casual, minimilist reaction.

Originally Posted by Mark_NZ
. I find it hard to believe that I'm the first person to seek help here who has a problem like this. I'm sure there must be many people who cannot just up and move.


There are many people who don't move. They either divorce or move and recover properly after the second Dday.

The resentment caused by a second Dday adds years to the recovery process.

This is like saying 'I get why the Jews didn't leave Nazi Germany. I mean they had small children and jobs'.

Please read, False Recovery-Need Voices of Experience
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Mark_NZ
Please understand that we cannot move.

I would only add that you WILL NOT move. Unless you are indentured servants, you CAN move. But again, it is your choice to sacrifice your marriage for your business. That is your right.

Hi Melody

I'm sorry to say; I'm not finding your comments at all helpful. If I shut down the business I will break contracts, be sued, lose my house, dump my children in poverty, reduce a business that generates me a decent income to nothing. With no income, and all the litigation, I won't have a wife, now will I!?!?

I could try to sell the business but that would take many months, assuming I could get a buyer.

I'm surely not unique here, so unless you are, in fact, a past business owner, who broke contracts, got sued, lost everything, then please refrain from making comments that are not solutions.

Kind regards,
Mark
Originally Posted by happyheart
you can put someone in charge of the bussiness and start a second bussiness in another place.

Thanks for the suggestion. With initial outlay upwards of $320,000, it's not really an option, no.
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Mark, I'm so sorry. D Day #2 will hurt even worse, but at least you will have more of a clue then.

Come back when your marriage (or even yourself) comes first.

Thanks Indiegirl. I hear you, but please read my posts above.
Originally Posted by BrainHurts

Thank you. Very useful post. Much appreciated.
Originally Posted by Mark_NZ
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Mark_NZ
Please understand that we cannot move.

I would only add that you WILL NOT move. Unless you are indentured servants, you CAN move. But again, it is your choice to sacrifice your marriage for your business. That is your right.

Hi Melody

I'm sorry to say; I'm not finding your comments at all helpful. If I shut down the business I will break contracts, be sued, lose my house, dump my children in poverty, reduce a business that generates me a decent income to nothing. With no income, and all the litigation, I won't have a wife, now will I!?!?

I could try to sell the business but that would take many months, assuming I could get a buyer.

I'm surely not unique here, so unless you are, in fact, a past business owner, who broke contracts, got sued, lost everything, then please refrain from making comments that are not solutions.

Kind regards,
Mark

Mark, first off, no one told you to "shut down" your business. We are just telling you that your marriage will never recover as long as there is continued contact between your wife and the OM. You are not unique. We have had many, many people sell their businesses, quit their jobs, change professions in order to save their marriage.

As long as you understand you are sacrificing your marriage for your business, you should not be surprised when the affair continues and your marriage fails.

Do you want to save your marriage? If you do, then you need to find a way to MOVE out of that town. If you choose the business over your marriage, that is your prerogative.
Originally Posted by Mark_NZ
Originally Posted by happyheart
you can put someone in charge of the bussiness and start a second bussiness in another place.

Thanks for the suggestion. With initial outlay upwards of $320,000, it's not really an option, no.

There are always options. You just have to look for them.
This morning, we both went to our respective sporting events.
My wife told me after that she asked the OM again to please refrain from contact. (He was at her sporting event.)

Facebook, etc now has him unfriended and blocked. With phone monitoring, contact from her to the OM will be quite hard to arrange. Not impossible, but hard.

Other than that, surveillance shows no contact, so I'm hopeful we're seeing some honesty coming through.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Mark_NZ
Originally Posted by happyheart
you can put someone in charge of the bussiness and start a second bussiness in another place.

Thanks for the suggestion. With initial outlay upwards of $320,000, it's not really an option, no.

There are always options. You just have to look for them.

Thanks Melody. If you'd like to send me a cheque, I'll be happy to cash it in no time. smile
Originally Posted by Mark_NZ
This morning, we both went to our respective sporting events.
My wife told me after that she asked the OM again to please refrain from contact. (He was at her sporting event.)

This is continued contact. Like we told you, recovery will be impossible this way. Every time she sees him or his car, she will go back to Day 1, in a perpetual state of withdrawal.

This is like the alcoholic who pretends he "recovers" by going into the bar every day and having occasional drink.

I hope you don't imagine you can ever recover like this?

Originally Posted by Mark_NZ
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Mark_NZ
Originally Posted by happyheart
you can put someone in charge of the bussiness and start a second bussiness in another place.

Thanks for the suggestion. With initial outlay upwards of $320,000, it's not really an option, no.

There are always options. You just have to look for them.

Thanks Melody. If you'd like to send me a cheque, I'll be happy to cash it in no time. smile

It's ok with me if you ignore the advice here. It is your marriage to lose. It is really all the same to me. I have saved my marriage.
Originally Posted by Mark_NZ
This morning, we both went to our respective sporting events.
My wife told me after that she asked the OM again to please refrain from contact. (He was at her sporting event
.)

Facebook, etc now has him unfriended and blocked. With phone monitoring, contact from her to the OM will be quite hard to arrange. Not impossible, but hard.

Other than that, surveillance shows no contact, so I'm hopeful we're seeing some honesty coming through.
You don't appear to be interested in Dr Harley's approach to marriage at all. You don't appear to know what his approach to recovery from an affair involves. You don't appear to be taking this affair seriously.

Recreational activities are things that we enjoy very much. When we do those things in the company of other people, it is easy for us to form emotional bonds with those people. When we are single, we could end up dating and marrying those people. If we continue to spend our favourite recreational time with our spouse, we stay in love with each other and there isn't room to fall for somebody else. However if, when we are married, we spend our favourite recreational time with someone other than our spouse, we can easily have an affair.

Your wife had an affair under precisely those conditions - by training with someone in the sport for which she has a passion, and forming a bond with him. She had an affair for over a year with him, and fell deeply in love with him. Your marriage is shattered. And now here you are, having only a few days ago discovered continued contact - as was only to be expected when affair partners fall in love - going back to your respective sporting events, when you know OM is likely to be at her event and you know she is in love with him.

What is wrong with you?
Originally Posted by Mark_NZ
Thanks Melody. If you'd like to send me a cheque, I'll be happy to cash it in no time. smile
You don't sound devastated about this affair.

I think you're just here to have fun.
Again; Thanks Melody. We have commitments go to our sporting events. As noted prior - small town - can't avoid this, unless we stop doing sport. Is that your suggestion?

As a positive - The mobile phone is back in the dining room per normal, not on the bedside table. Little steps!
Originally Posted by Mark_NZ
Again; Thanks Melody. We have commitments go to our sporting events. As noted prior - small town - can't avoid this, unless we stop doing sport. Is that your suggestion?

As a positive - The mobile phone is back in the dining room per normal, not on the bedside table. Little steps!
For the life of me I cannot understand why you are being so cocky.

Where are the positives in your situation?

If your wife really was in love and enjoying a full sexual affair with someone else for about a year, and if only a few days ago she was contemplating leaving you, and if you really cannot leave this small, small town and OM won't leave either, and if you are bound to run into each other in town, and if you won't give up the separate sporting events and she sees him at hers, then you are screwed, my man. Seriously screwed. I don't see anything in your situation that warrants sarcasm towards us for our advice, or that warrants cockiness, or smily faces.

You're screwed. Good luck.
Originally Posted by Mark_NZ
Again; Thanks Melody. We have commitments go to our sporting events. As noted prior - small town - can't avoid this, unless we stop doing sport. Is that your suggestion?

Is the sporting event more important than your marriage? Apparently so!

Quote
As a positive - The mobile phone is back in the dining room per normal, not on the bedside table. Little steps!

That is like saying you fixed the door to the mens room on the sinking Titanic. Good grief. It matters not at all that her mobile phone is on the dining room table when she just saw her LOVER today!! crazy
Mark, is there is something you needed from us? Since you have rejected the Marriage Builders program, is there a reason to continue posting here and wasting our time?
Hi Melody

I am here because I hope to find solutions to our marriage's current issue. I need to implement the program in such a way that I ensure we:

(a) Do not lose our house;
(b) Do not lose our business;
(c) Are not sued by disgruntled clients;
(d) Can live a normal and healthy life, taking part in community or sporting activities, which is healthy for both body and mind.

If any of these things happen, I won't have a marriage.

I have found the website very useful, thanks. I have found the posts by some users here, quite useful, thanks. I have found Will Harley's books very useful, thanks. (I own a few) I regret to say, you're suggestions are not practical in our situation, so I'd invite you to waste your time with someone else, and refrain from reading my posts or commenting on my posts, please.

For myself, I won't comment further on your posts, in my thread, so please take your vitriol somewhere else. I find your comments mildly abusive and not in keeping with the forum rules. If you are the owner of this website, then I will remove myself forthwith, but until that fact is proven, I need not do so.

Kind regards,
Mark
Originally Posted by Mark_NZ
Hi Melody

I am here because I hope to find solutions to our marriage's current issue. I need to implement the program in such a way that I ensure we:

(a) Do not lose our house;
(b) Do not lose our business;
(c) Are not sued by disgruntled clients;
(d) Can live a normal and healthy life, taking part in community or sporting activities, which is healthy for both body and mind.

If any of these things happen, I won't have a marriage.

I have found the website very useful, thanks. I have found the posts by some users here, quite useful, thanks. I have found Will Harley's books very useful, thanks. (I own a few) I regret to say, you're suggestions are not practical in our situation, so I'd invite you to waste your time with someone else, and refrain from reading my posts or commenting on my posts, please.

For myself, I won't comment further on your posts, in my thread, so please take your vitriol somewhere else. I find your comments mildly abusive and not in keeping with the forum rules. If you are the owner of this website, then I will remove myself forthwith, but until that fact is proven, I need not do so.

Kind regards,
Mark
From the steps that Dr Harley recommends to recover a marriage from an affair, which ones are you willing to take?
Mark, if you are not using the forum to implement this program, we are going to lock this thread. It is a distraction from our mission to come here and fight with posters who are giving you the steps for recovery. If you are not going to follow the program there is no point in keeping it open. Do you have a question for the posters on ways to implement first steps?
Originally Posted by MBsurvivor
Mark, if you are not using the forum to implement this program, we are going to lock this thread. It is a distraction from our mission to come here and fight with posters who are giving you the steps for recovery. If you are not going to follow the program there is no point in keeping it open. Do you have a question for the posters on ways to implement first steps?

Thank you for your comments.
This is what I have done so far:

Checklist for How Affairs Should End

The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse. Done.

The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again. Done.

The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse. Done.

The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP: Difficult to achieve, but she's making the effort.

Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse). Done.

Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers). Doing this.

Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent). Doing this.

Spend leisure time together. Doing this.

Change jobs and relocate if necessary. As explained, cannot do this under any circumstances.

Avoid overnight separation. We are never separate overnight, never have been, except when one of us had to go overseas for sport or other commitments.

Allow technical accountability. Doing this.

Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends. Have so far exposed to some friends, some family and our pastor, also to marriage councillor.

I'm not fighting with anyone - I do ask though that advice be given that will not result in the complete implosion of our livelyhood. If you feel that's reason to lock the thread, then go right ahead.

Kind regards,
Mark
Thank you for your response. Since you have made it clear you can�t follow the essential steps in recovery from an affair, we will lock this thread. If you decide to follow the program for recovery, let us know and we will unlock it. Best of luck to you and your wife.
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