Marriage Builders
Posted By: typicalman Plan A hurting children - 11/09/15 12:52 PM
I'm starting a new thread for a very specific question:

When you are in plan A, avoiding all fights with WS... sometimes, the WS actions can be very harmful.. financially, or harmful to the children. How would you handle the situation... the balance between avoiding a fight and putting a stop to the WS's harmful behaviors?

Here is an example... It seems that the WW is emotionally disconnected from me but making that up for that with the children. As such, the children no longer have an enforceable bed time nor enforceable consequences for anything.

I can:
a) step in, give the kids boundaries, limits, and discipline that they need meanwhile creating a fight with the WS and get accused of being a child abuser (I don't spank or yell, but I would physically carry them to bed, put them in time out, or take something away from them) This creates a big fight with WS.

b) Not create a fight, walk away, and let the WS feel the consequences of the children's behavior.

I have been mostly doing scenario b), but my children's behavior is getting really bad and I'm starting to fear for them.

When my WS finally does get fed up with the children she yells so loud I become afraid for them.. then the next moment any punishment is forgotten.



Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/09/15 01:26 PM
Plan A means that you demonstrate to your WS that you will meet her needs if she ends her affair. It also means that you expose the affair. So I am not sure what you are talking about.

It doesn't have anything to do with the situations you describe. Of course, you should not allow your WS to hurt your children or your finances.

If your WS is harming your children or your finances, then you put a stop to it. You don't fight, you politely step in and protect your family. As far as your children's bedtime, I would try and work out a plan with her that you both like.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/09/15 04:16 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
If your WS is harming your children or your finances, then you put a stop to it. You don't fight, you politely step in and protect your family. As far as your children's bedtime, I would try and work out a plan with her that you both like.

The part of plan A I am talking about is to not fight, and no LB's... (disrespectful judgements ). I need to step in and raise my kids, but I cannot "straighten out" my spouse.... and my WW will not negotiate nor be rational because she is in the Fog (I think). What is the best way to have this conversation? Or no conversation, just do it?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/09/15 04:20 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
If your WS is harming your children or your finances, then you put a stop to it. You don't fight, you politely step in and protect your family. As far as your children's bedtime, I would try and work out a plan with her that you both like.

The part of plan A I am talking about is to not fight, and no LB's... (disrespectful judgements ). I need to step in and raise my kids, but I cannot "straighten out" my spouse.... and my WW will not negotiate nor be rational because she is in the Fog (I think). What is the best way to have this conversation? Or no conversation, just do it?

Ok, but Plan A nowhere says to allow your spouse to destroy your finances or hurt your children. It says to meet her needs, avoid lovebusters, avoid fights. It doesn't mean you sit around like a doormat and allow your spouse to harm you.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/09/15 04:28 PM
Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
Plan A should never involve sacrifice. In other words, you can be as encouraging as possible about your willingness to meet his emotional needs without actually doing it, and still be in Plan A. And you can defend yourself from your husband's abuse (calling the police or calling his lover's husband) and still be in Plan A. The point of plan A is that you are making an effort to do your part to make your marriage successful, but from my perspective, it should never involve personal sacrifice.

Originally Posted by What Are Plan A and Plan B?
So, then, what is plan A and plan B?

Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments, and selfish demands. These three Love Busters not only ruin any effort to reach a negotiated settlement, but they also make the betrayed spouse much less attractive to the wayward spouse. Instead of encouraging total separation from the lover, the anger, disrespect and demands of the betrayed spouse make the lover appear to be the only one who truly cares about the wayward spouse. They literally throw the wayward spouse into the arms of the lover.

On the other hand, if the betrayed spouse approaches the wayward spouse with respect and thoughtfulness, the cruelty and self-indulgence of the affair is much easier for the wayward spouse to understand. And once the wayward spouse's mistake is acknowledged, it's much easier for him or her to take the first step toward recovery by agreeing to never see or talk to the lover again.
here
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/10/15 02:42 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
If your WS is harming your children or your finances, then you put a stop to it. You don't fight, you politely step in and protect your family. As far as your children's bedtime, I would try and work out a plan with her that you both like.

The part of plan A I am talking about is to not fight, and no LB's... (disrespectful judgements ). I need to step in and raise my kids, but I cannot "straighten out" my spouse.... and my WW will not negotiate nor be rational because she is in the Fog (I think). What is the best way to have this conversation? Or no conversation, just do it?

Ok, but Plan A nowhere says to allow your spouse to destroy your finances or hurt your children. It says to meet her needs, avoid lovebusters, avoid fights. It doesn't mean you sit around like a doormat and allow your spouse to harm you.

Any ideas on how to address the really bad behavior of WW while "avoiding fights"? I feel my kids slipping away... they hit, use bad language, and they don't listen. My WW practically encourage d this. All the progress I made with them while the WW was away has been wiped out. When I try to step in and take control, she fights me. She also refuses to talk to me about it.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/10/15 03:10 AM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Any ideas on how to address the really bad behavior of WW while "avoiding fights"? I feel my kids slipping away... they hit, use bad language, and they don't listen. My WW practically encourage d this. All the progress I made with them while the WW was away has been wiped out. When I try to step in and take control, she fights me. She also refuses to talk to me about it.

Don't address her bad behavior, but start taking charge of your children.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/10/15 03:11 AM
And keep in mind that you made the decision to stay with your wayward wife "for your children." Not sure how that is good for your kids.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/10/15 01:10 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
And keep in mind that you made the decision to stay with your wayward wife "for your children." Not sure how that is good for your kids.

The desicion was the lesser of all evils for my children. I spent 100K in legal fees already and that did not keep her away. The children's behavior is also a problem after the police come and escort mom away. .. and she still comes back the next day. My only other option was to try to work with the WS. If there is no improvement, my only option is to sell the house and move the kids away..... I'm really besides myself on how difficult and toxic my WS really is. I tried again last night to simply put my kids to bed and she came in, through me out of the room, then let my younger son out of his bed to go sleep in her bed in the guestroom. How specifically should I handle that? There is sure to be a repeat tonight.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/10/15 01:49 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
And keep in mind that you made the decision to stay with your wayward wife "for your children." Not sure how that is good for your kids.

The desicion was the lesser of all evils for my children.

I fail to see how this is the lesser of evil for your children. Surely you can see how damaging this is to your kids? I would not give up until you are separated and your kids are safe. I sure wouldn't just give up.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/10/15 02:07 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
And keep in mind that you made the decision to stay with your wayward wife "for your children." Not sure how that is good for your kids.

The desicion was the lesser of all evils for my children.

I fail to see how this is the lesser of evil for your children. Surely you can see how damaging this is to your kids? I would not give up until you are separated and your kids are safe. I sure wouldn't just give up.

If I execute plan B today, that means leaving the house and the kids while continuing to pay all the bills. Would you leave your kids alone with this woman? What would you do if you were in my shoes?we have no savings left.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/10/15 02:15 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
And keep in mind that you made the decision to stay with your wayward wife "for your children." Not sure how that is good for your kids.

The desicion was the lesser of all evils for my children.

I fail to see how this is the lesser of evil for your children. Surely you can see how damaging this is to your kids? I would not give up until you are separated and your kids are safe. I sure wouldn't just give up.

If I execute plan B today, that means leaving the house and the kids while continuing to pay all the bills. Would you leave your kids alone with this woman? What would you do if you were in my shoes?we have no savings left.

Of course not. I would move heaven and earth to separate and take your kids to safety. The last thing I would do is leave my kids with her.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/10/15 02:43 PM


If I execute plan B today, that means leaving the house and the kids while continuing to pay all the bills. Would you leave your kids alone with this woman? What would you do if you were in my shoes?we have no savings left. [/quote]

Of course not. I would move heaven and earth to separate and take your kids to safety. The last thing I would do is leave my kids with her. [/quote]

Me too... the problem I run into is that bad parenting, affairs, and even kidnapping your own children is not against the law. If I simply try to put my kids to bed, I get accused of child abuse. The legal route won't work. I wish my WW would simply run away to be with the other man... I would simply sell the house and move away.. but she won't do that. Any other ideas? Why is it so hard to outsmart her?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/10/15 02:53 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Me too... the problem I run into is that bad parenting, affairs, and even kidnapping your own children is not against the law. If I simply try to put my kids to bed, I get accused of child abuse. The legal route won't work. I wish my WW would simply run away to be with the other man... I would simply sell the house and move away.. but she won't do that. Any other ideas? Why is it so hard to outsmart her?

Yes, I would try the legal route. Other fathers here have been successful. You can't just give up because one tactic doesn't work.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/10/15 02:58 PM
So I again get back to:

a)If this behavior is caused by an affair, then one of two things happens.. .the affair dies away, she gets over withdrawal or whatever.. and things should improve over time or b)she runs away to be with the other man.. the legal actions I did take keep the kids at home at least so they stay with me... the problem should resolve itself one way or another...

b)If the behavior is not caused by the affair, either my wife has a mental disorder, she is possessed by satin, or perhaps she is just a really bad, selfish, or unintelligent person and I made a horrible mistake for marring her (after dating her for 6 years)

given some time... I would think this will become more clear; but I really am hoping for scenario a).
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/10/15 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
So I again get back to:

a)If this behavior is caused by an affair, then one of two things happens.. .the affair dies away, she gets over withdrawal or whatever.. and things should improve over time or b)she runs away to be with the other man.. the legal actions I did take keep the kids at home at least so they stay with me... the problem should resolve itself one way or another...

b)If the behavior is not caused by the affair, either my wife has a mental disorder, she is possessed by satin, or perhaps she is just a really bad, selfish, or unintelligent person and I made a horrible mistake for marring her (after dating her for 6 years)

given some time... I would think this will become more clear; but I really am hoping for scenario a).


I am not following you at all. I can see from your earlier posts that she has been reckless for much of your marriage. What difference does it make WHY she is reckless? The effect is the same on the children. If it is due to a mental illness are you any less obliged to protect your kids?

Your children are innocent victims in all this. Giving her "time" to screw them up more seems very negligent.

It seems you have a strategy of conflict avoidance and avoiding conflict in this situation hurts your children terribly.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/10/15 04:29 PM
[/quote]
I am not following you at all. I can see from your earlier posts that she has been reckless for much of your marriage. What difference does it make WHY she is reckless? The effect is the same on the children. If it is due to a mental illness are you any less obliged to protect your kids?

Your children are innocent victims in all this. Giving her "time" to screw them up more seems very negligent.

It seems you have a strategy of conflict avoidance and avoiding conflict in this situation hurts your children terribly. [/quote]


My WW has been a good wife to me until our second child was born, then she began to ignore me and have lots of independent behavior. Her parenting skills became worse and worse (or more apparent) as the children got older. My feeling is that she gave up her emotional bond to me for the children which actually made her a really bad parent for two reasons: #1 she could not create appropriate limits and consequences for the children nor allow them to become independent and #2 she could not demonstrate problem solving skills with me in front the children because she stopped negotiating with me due to her loss of emotional connection.

Here is the heard reality from my legal team...
#1 I can spend another $100K fighting her for sole custody of the children.. there is a low % chance that I will get it. The most likely outcome is that I will get 50% custody. When I do get 50% custody, she will still do everything in her power to alienate the kids from me.
#2 After a couple more years, the kids will no longer meet her selfish emotional need because they are growing up... logic will say that she will leave on her own.

The truth is that she is a horrible parent and a worse wife but she does not physically or sexually abuse the children so the court will not help me.

What is really strange.. when we did the emotional needs survey, she listed family commitment as her number 1 emotional need. When I step in to do my part to help raise and develop the children.. .she really wants me to go away. That really makes no sense.... unless the reason is that she does not want her emotional need met by me because of the affair. She may want to "cut me off" as the father because she is fantasizing still about the other man... is that possible? Everything that I do for my kids seems to have no impact on her love bank. Any thoughts on that???

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/10/15 04:35 PM
My thought is that you should focus all of your efforts on finding a legal solution that will protect your kids. You have a legal opinion from one guy; there are many other lawyers out there. It makes no sense to focus on questionnaires and whatnot when your children are being treated so poorly.

We have many men who got sole custody of their children on much less than what you present here. All they did was try. I would not give up until you find a solution.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/10/15 04:50 PM
I will be on with Dr. H this week.. we'll see what he thinks. I can get another legal opinion.

My kids punch, bite, and say they hate me. I asked my WW if she thinks this behavior is OK and if she has any ideas on what to do about it. She says that the kids are "little angels" and the is nothing to do.

Is there anything I could possibly be doing wrong? is there any way I could be a better father? I will make any changes to be a better parent... my WW can see that as an example and follow it or ignore it? Could the problem really be 100% her right now? Is there nothing I can do to be a better parent father?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/10/15 05:58 PM
Thats great that you are going to be on with Dr. Harley! Hope he can help.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/10/15 06:47 PM
Quote
What is really strange.. when we did the emotional needs survey, she listed family commitment as her number 1 emotional need. When I step in to do my part to help raise and develop the children.. .she really wants me to go away. That really makes no sense.... unless the reason is that she does not want her emotional need met by me because of the affair. She may want to "cut me off" as the father because she is fantasizing still about the other man... is that possible? Everything that I do for my kids seems to have no impact on her love bank. Any thoughts on that???
You hit the nail on the head. She doesn't want you meeting her important emotional needs.

But I agree with Mel. You need to focus on protecting your kids at this point.
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/10/15 08:31 PM
I have heard Dr. Harley comment that in any marriage, typically one parent is a little more focused on the goal of making sure the children feel loved, while the other parent is a little more focused on the goal of making sure the children learn discipline. Both goals are important! But he says that when there is a single parent typically only one of these goals can be accomplished, and he recommends that the parent pick the goal of making sure that the children feel loved. I would imagine that that advice holds true for situations of marital breakdown due to infidelity or otherwise, as well.

If it were me I would focus on the goal of building a relationship with my children. For married couples Dr. Harley recommends spending fifteen hours a week meeting the emotional need of family commitment, spending the time together as a family doing something worthwhile, passing on your values and teaching your children. I would suggest you spend fifteen hours a week or so with your kids just trying to have a good time with them doing something they (and you) enjoy. Use this time to solidify your relationship with them and to communicate your love to them and the fact that you are available to support them in what they are going through. Invite your wife along, also, each and every time, because any time she shows up, even if she sulks and acts foggy the entire time, you will be making family commitment love bank deposits, and for most women family commitment is a powerful emotional need. (I used family commitment to make love bank deposits when my wife hated me and wouldn't let me make them any other way. I was so crafty!) You can also talk to your kids about how you feel people should act and your values as well (such as your belief that people ought not to hurt each other, for example), but the older your kids get and the less support you have from your wife, the less ability you will have to make them comply, so to some extent all you can do is build a relationship with them, expose them to your value system, be their rock, and hope they make the right choices.

I'm glad to see you'll be talking to Dr. Harley this week, and I know you'll get some great insight and information and advice from him!
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/10/15 08:38 PM
As a father and husband who needed to win my wife back and learn to overcome angry outbursts at all costs while fathering SIX children (at the time...), I often repeated to myself "If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs..." before choosing to do nothing, let things lie, and simply remain calm and make small but effective improvements to the situation. There were a lot of people losing their head around me and I was nearly powerless to do anything about it. But staying calm and improving my marriage was the key to becoming capable of doing something about the problem.
Posted By: Ron_C Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/10/15 09:16 PM
I am going to way in here, my WW always wanted me discipline the kids, but always push me aside when the time came. She been the more on being the discipline mother and I am the loving father.
Throw the affair I have learned the more time I spent with the kids the more thy wanted to be with me. And less thy want to with there mom that does not give them the undivided tension like I do.I have also found thy listen to me better and more helpful.

My WW has always been B/W on discipline were I am more what fits.

Maybe it's my background having a abusive father and always wishing I had a father I could come and talk too.
That's my approach right OR wrong, I am not 100% sure.

I think you should always discipline in love, if you spank the kid put them in your lap and tell them it's the action you don't approve of not them.

I still remember my daughter the first time I spanked her, I felt she was testing me at the time. I counted to 3 and them spanked her not hard but enough it scared her. After a few moments she crawled up in to my lap and I held her. To this day she is now 3 counting to 3 gets her to stop what she is doing. And if she gets spanked she always comes up to and wants to be held.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/11/15 02:56 AM
I like these suggestions... btw, I have read three books on child discipline, child physiology, and child emotion coaching. I don't spank or even yell. I will simply put my kids in time out, take away their toys or other privileges. Other than just discipline, I encourage them to tell me why they are upset and what is causing them to act out. I don't punish them or try to straighten them out for sharing their feelings... I just listen and empathize.

I like the idea of just letting my WW handle the discipline... and I like it for a few reasons..

#1 she can scream her head off and be the crazy one... the kids will look to me as the stable & reasonable one... it will help our relationship.

#2 I won't lose as many love units for disciplining the children when the WW doesn't want me to.

#3 I won't face the constant criticism from her...

It's hard because I know her techniques are wrong and don't work... but I'll still be there for my kids. When they struggle in life, I'll be there to help them through.
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/11/15 04:08 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
It's hard because I know her techniques are wrong and don't work...

When the affair ends, if the two of you decide to try to reconcile, you'll need to learn to negotiate a solution together that both of you feel enthusiastic about, without expressing disrespect about each other's positions and preferences.

I can truthfully say that's one of the most important things I've ever done in my life!
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/11/15 05:33 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by typicalman
It's hard because I know her techniques are wrong and don't work...

When the affair ends, if the two of you decide to try to reconcile, you'll need to learn to negotiate a solution together that both of you feel enthusiastic about, without expressing disrespect about each other's positions and preferences.

I can truthfully say that's one of the most important things I've ever done in my life!

I fully agree to a POJA and I am not disrespectful about her position.. I will say right now "the children's behavior bothers me" and "what ideas do you have?"... she simply says that it is not a problem for her so she is not willing to negotiate nor have the discussion.

I think that this is affair FOG or she simply doesn't care about my feelings because she simply hates me right now and is in a really selfish mode where she doesn't care that much for the children's future well being either.

I think that she basically has a "freeloader" mindset right now at best... we are reconciling only because there isn't a better option right now but she is not willing to put any effort into anything such as negotiating, undivided attention, extraordinary precautions,, etc..

Like you said before.. there are very "small things", I can negotiate with her on and I take those as they come.. very small "wins". I just hope we can build on that.

If somehow, I could make this woman be in love with me, she would be motivated and that would be the best thing for the kids. I'm a really good guy, I'm good looking, make a good living, I'm a good dad, I am flexible and willing to meet any needs that she has... I don't yell or lose my temper, I help out around the house... I don't know why this is so hard for her and how she can hate me soo much.

I think that she began to resent how much she depended on me and how controlling and confining it felt for her when I put my foot down and said that she could not have a boyfriend... so she began to hate me for that.. like a light switch went off. She exercises lots of control over the children and uses that to hurt me.

Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/11/15 06:11 PM
The big problem most people have with disrespect is they are disrespectful without realizing it. Learning to recognize disrespect was very difficult for me.

When you say "her techniques and don't work," you are expressing disrespect. In recovery you'll need to learn to filter out such statements. Instead you can talk to her about what her and your goals are and discuss what can accomplish those goals.
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/11/15 06:12 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
If somehow, I could make this woman be in love with me, she would be motivated and that would be the best thing for the kids. I'm a really good guy, I'm good looking, make a good living, I'm a good dad, I am flexible and willing to meet any needs that she has... I don't yell or lose my temper, I help out around the house... I don't know why this is so hard for her and how she can hate me soo much.

Try to invite her to do things with you and the kids, and try to also invite her to do things alone with you. These are crucial for Plan A.
Posted By: Ron_C Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/11/15 06:36 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by typicalman
If somehow, I could make this woman be in love with me, she would be motivated and that would be the best thing for the kids. I'm a really good guy, I'm good looking, make a good living, I'm a good dad, I am flexible and willing to meet any needs that she has... I don't yell or lose my temper, I help out around the house... I don't know why this is so hard for her and how she can hate me soo much.

Try to invite her to do things with you and the kids, and try to also invite her to do things alone with you. These are crucial for Plan A.

Sometimes thats harder than it sounds, my WW wants nothing do do with me or be in the same house. Since she drop the OM she's out to find a replacement.
I keep asking to do things alone and wuth the kids. all she says I'll think about it. I think it's to get me to stop talking to her.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/11/15 07:32 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by typicalman
If somehow, I could make this woman be in love with me, she would be motivated and that would be the best thing for the kids. I'm a really good guy, I'm good looking, make a good living, I'm a good dad, I am flexible and willing to meet any needs that she has... I don't yell or lose my temper, I help out around the house... I don't know why this is so hard for her and how she can hate me soo much.

Try to invite her to do things with you and the kids, and try to also invite her to do things alone with you. These are crucial for Plan A.

We have done things together with the kids and we typically have a good time. She refuses to go out with me alone... and it really feels like it's her way of punishing me for not allowing her to have a boyfriend and exposure.

Quite honestly, after everything she has done, the sight of her makes me sick, but intellectually I know that spending time together and meeting each others needs is the way to rebuild our love banks... and I am willing to do it for the kids... if I can do it, why is it so hard for her???
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/11/15 09:04 PM
Originally Posted by Ron_C
I keep asking to do things alone and wuth the kids. all she says I'll think about it. I think it's to get me to stop talking to her.

Don't let it stop you. Just keep inviting her, and keep making friendly conversation.
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/11/15 09:07 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by typicalman
If somehow, I could make this woman be in love with me, she would be motivated and that would be the best thing for the kids. I'm a really good guy, I'm good looking, make a good living, I'm a good dad, I am flexible and willing to meet any needs that she has... I don't yell or lose my temper, I help out around the house... I don't know why this is so hard for her and how she can hate me soo much.

Try to invite her to do things with you and the kids, and try to also invite her to do things alone with you. These are crucial for Plan A.

We have done things together with the kids and we typically have a good time. She refuses to go out with me alone... and it really feels like it's her way of punishing me for not allowing her to have a boyfriend and exposure.

Quite honestly, after everything she has done, the sight of her makes me sick, but intellectually I know that spending time together and meeting each others needs is the way to rebuild our love banks... and I am willing to do it for the kids... if I can do it, why is it so hard for her???

It's the fog. Just keep inviting her.

When you make conversation with her, you are making love bank deposits.

When you spend time with her and the kids, it makes love bank deposits.

When you invite her to spend time with you it makes a love bank deposit. It bugs her though because thanks to the affair and the contrast effect and the fog your love bank account balance is still negative, so she gets annoyed that you are not giving her a reason to feel negative about you.

But slowly, over time, all of these deposits add up. Keep making them. If they become hard to make, see your doctor and ask him to put you on short term antidepressants.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/11/15 10:28 PM
Originally Posted by markos
When you invite her to spend time with you it makes a love bank deposit. It bugs her though because thanks to the affair and the contrast effect and the fog your love bank account balance is still negative, so she gets annoyed that you are not giving her a reason to feel negative about you.

I think this really makes sense... she does look for reasons all the time to make me the bad guy... one thing that's odd is that she keep peeping on my cell phone when I am using it as if to see if I am texting another woman, but it's always innocent. Every time the kids fuss, she says "what is wrong, did Dada hurt you?" they always say "no, it was something else." It is so obvious that she is looking really hard to find fault in me. I also think that is a reason why she is so "over the top" angry over the exposure.. in her mind, I really feel that she felt justified... "how dare this guy expose me... he is the bad guy, not me!!!!" I am demonized sooo much... there is a grain of truth to some of it, of course (we can all improve on something), but, for the most part she makes a sport of putting me in a "no win" situation...

Perhaps, if she were to go out with me.. it's admitting to herself that I'm not such a monster after all and she could have made a mistake by having an affair... but she just can't handle admitting that. It would also mean that she needs to end contact forever with the OM and she is afraid to do that as well.

I can keep analyzing this forever.. but, let me keep making deposits and see what happens.

Posted By: Ron_C Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/11/15 10:50 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Ron_C
I keep asking to do things alone and wuth the kids. all she says I'll think about it. I think it's to get me to stop talking to her.

Don't let it stop you. Just keep inviting her, and keep making friendly conversation.

Oh I plan too, even if the divorce goes through

Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/12/15 02:51 PM
Two things that are bothering me:

#1 Last night, I just played with the kids. I announced to WW that "mom" is in "charge" of telling kids when it is time to go to bed and enforce that... I am just there to spend time with them. It worked out really well and it set the stage for the kids to bond with me. My WW said "repeat that".. ."mom is in charge".. "great".. "that's what I want to her"... She wants CONTROL... she gives me positive reinforcement when I give her control. Why is she so hung up on this power trip and needing to be so controlling???

#2 This morning, my son was struggling with his asthma, my WW ignored it. I brought him his inhalers ad he refused to take them. She said that he didn't need them, he is not coughing.. are you from another planet? how can you not hear him coughing & struggling right next to you? He coughs again.. she says "ohh" I try to make him take his inhalers... he fusses and pushes me away. She leaves, so I again try to force him to take his inhalers and he fusses. She escorts me to the door and pushes me out and says have a nice day..

I can give up on disciplining the kids.. but how do I ignore them when they are struggling from a medical standpoint? I can't I trust her to take care of them when she has proven that she cannot take care of them. I am worried about my kids and I want to make them healthy & happy... not just be their friend.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/12/15 04:41 PM
How old is your son?
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/12/15 05:02 PM
7....
Before my WW came home, he would take his medication by himself... he is too old for this kind of fight but both of my kids regressed significantly since she has come home.
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/12/15 05:29 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Two things that are bothering me:

#1 Last night, I just played with the kids. I announced to WW that "mom" is in "charge" of telling kids when it is time to go to bed and enforce that... I am just there to spend time with them. It worked out really well and it set the stage for the kids to bond with me. My WW said "repeat that".. ."mom is in charge".. "great".. "that's what I want to her"... She wants CONTROL... she gives me positive reinforcement when I give her control. Why is she so hung up on this power trip and needing to be so controlling???

#2 This morning, my son was struggling with his asthma, my WW ignored it. I brought him his inhalers ad he refused to take them. She said that he didn't need them, he is not coughing.. are you from another planet? how can you not hear him coughing & struggling right next to you? He coughs again.. she says "ohh" I try to make him take his inhalers... he fusses and pushes me away. She leaves, so I again try to force him to take his inhalers and he fusses. She escorts me to the door and pushes me out and says have a nice day..

I can give up on disciplining the kids.. but how do I ignore them when they are struggling from a medical standpoint? I can't I trust her to take care of them when she has proven that she cannot take care of them. I am worried about my kids and I want to make them healthy & happy... not just be their friend.

I have trouble understanding why anyone struggling with asthma would refuse to take an inhaler. I'm asthmatic and so are all of our kids.

Can you take him to a doctor and see if the doctor has any suggestions?
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/12/15 05:44 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Can you take him to a doctor and see if the doctor has any suggestions?

I took him to the Doctor and the doctor gave him a preventative inhaler and a rescue inhaler.

Mom was in charge up bed time last night... so he of course stayed up too late and is extra irritable in the morning and not acting rational. Why does he like to cough and be short on breath and do nothing that will help it? Typically, I would have him in bed on time, and his inhalers were just part of the morning routine. With Mom around, the kids really have no structure and they are really just difficult to deal with. My kids struggle with the concept of delaying pleasure to do things that they need to do when mom is around. It drives me nuts to see them raised like this and I cannot help them... I want them to grow up to be strong, healthy, and productive adults... not to just satisfy my emotional whims and be my friend. I am so frustrated!!!
Posted By: Prisca Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/12/15 06:06 PM
Quote
I took him to the Doctor and the doctor gave him a preventative inhaler and a rescue inhaler.
But maybe the doctor, being an authority figure, can talk to him about the importance of taking his medication. Or maybe he has some ideas for you on how to get him to take the meds.
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/12/15 06:10 PM
I would take him to the doctor and tell the doctor the whole story, that you are having trouble getting your seven year old to use his medicine, and tell him your wife is telling him he doesn't have to use it and tel him the whole story of what your wife is doing, how she is in the fog, etc.

I'd ask the doctor's advice, and also ask him to speak to my child in the hopes that that could help him.

I'd also mention this to Dr. Harley - are you on the show tomorrow?

I think I'd also tell people about this, possibly your child's school and any other caregivers. I'd be tempted to make this a part of exposure - but I think I'd run that by Dr. Harley.

My wayward mother had a bad prescription drug addiction during her fog, and at one point she was loading up on asthma meds in my name after I had moved out. At one point the doctor told my dad she was ordering too much medication for my brother, as well.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/12/15 08:00 PM
Originally Posted by markos
I would take him to the doctor and tell the doctor the whole story, that you are having trouble getting your seven year old to use his medicine, and tell him your wife is telling him he doesn't have to use it and tel him the whole story of what your wife is doing, how she is in the fog, etc.

I'd ask the doctor's advice, and also ask him to speak to my child in the hopes that that could help him.

I'd also mention this to Dr. Harley - are you on the show tomorrow?

I think I'd also tell people about this, possibly your child's school and any other caregivers. I'd be tempted to make this a part of exposure - but I think I'd run that by Dr. Harley.

My wayward mother had a bad prescription drug addiction during her fog, and at one point she was loading up on asthma meds in my name after I had moved out. At one point the doctor told my dad she was ordering too much medication for my brother, as well.

I just finished w/ Dr Harley today.. please listen and tell me what you think.

Suggestion #1 was Plan A.. basically, as long as I can
Suggestion #2 was Separation (letting her see what divorce is like)
Suggestion #3 was Divorcing

We talked off line a bit about doing plan A much longer (years even) for the benefit of the kids. We did talked about personality... this is really someone that is going to be difficult to negotiate with because emotions are running her life (he suggested that I may be right about the PD).

We also talked about the affair... he thinks that she is still contacting the OM, but his view is that she realizes that it is never going to amount to anything. At this point, he may be just someone for her to talk to. She needs to be talking to me instead.

I will re listen to the show and see what else I can pick up.

Overall... it felt that this is more of a personality problem than an affair problem.

I left with the idea that I should do plan A... see where we can get things and how things are with more time of me meeting her need versus someone else and see if there is any improvement in her ability to negotiate.








Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/12/15 08:53 PM
Based on the suggestion above.. .I'm wondering if I could go to the school nurse, explain the situation and ask if she would be willing to do his inhalers with him at the beginning of school and before he leaves at the end of the day. Might that work?
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/12/15 09:19 PM
Also.. I didn't tell the entire story. I had both my children in therapy which my WW has terminated and also Speech therapy which she also opposes.. Speech is on Saturday, so even though she tells him he doesn't have to go, I just pick him up, put him in the car and take him. My younger son took an ambulance ride and was in the Hospital last Spring for pneumonia that got out of control... he could have lost his life. He has has this twice in one year. His doctor said that leaving asthma untreated makes him more susceptible to this. It's completely logical that a reasonable parent would treat them for asthma... but my WW doesn't "feel" emotionally that the children should have to take medicine if they don't want to. We talked a lot about emotions running. We talked a lot about emotions being in control with Dr. H. We didn't get into all this, but it's also a reason why my WW is dangerous (in my opinion) for these kids. If she does rebuild her love bank for me more.. I hope her emotional need to be permissive with the children will subside.. I will keep trying to do that. In the mean time, I will need to care for these kids the best I can even if it means outsmarting her and doing some things behind her back. I need to do my best for them.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/12/15 09:36 PM
Sometimes nebs can be easier to take atthat age. Call and ask the pediatrician explaining the situation.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/12/15 09:40 PM
This is a situation in which you should ignore your wife's wishes. Your son needs his meds.

Markos- you would be shocked at the number of people who don't take their meds. Inhalers and insulin especially.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/12/15 09:53 PM
Originally Posted by apples123
Sometimes nebs can be easier to take atthat age. Call and ask the pediatrician explaining the situation.

Basically that is what I have for him (I think)... it's a big plastic contraption that they breath into 5 times per 1 puff of the inhaler. He is just cranky in the morning or want to watch TV or something like that and he doesn't want to deal with it. A 7-year old is just not going to be rational when mom tells him he doesn't need to do it and dad does.

At school.. it may be a whole different story if he gets to take a few minutes out of class and feel special.. and also doing this with a someone who is not his parent. Then.. also, I will not look like the bad guy. I like this idea.. (of doing it at the school)when / if my wife finds out she may get mad.. but the other thing that may be good is that my wife will realize that there is some level of public embarrassment and accountability if she will not take proper care of the kids.. namely that the school is going to know about it.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/12/15 10:21 PM
That's a spacer.Nebulizers use liquid formulations. Again - ask the pediatrician.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/12/15 10:47 PM
Originally Posted by apples123
That's a spacer.Nebulizers use liquid formulations. Again - ask the pediatrician.

I will need to take him to the doctor.. I'm starting to get terrified just thinking about this... I will take him in behind mom's back.. she is going to be really mad.. .and do I try to keep this a secret from her (tell my son not to tell her) or go the honesty route... either way, I'm going to be in BIG trouble if / when she finds out!
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/12/15 10:53 PM
You should be very careful. You are also his parent. You too can get in trouble for neglect if you are not giving your son his meds. CPS doesn't give a flip that your wife wants control of this.

Go to his doctor so you have documentation. But the doctor is likely to tell you if your won't give the boy his meds, you must do so.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/12/15 11:11 PM
Originally Posted by apples123
You should be very careful. You are also his parent. You too can get in trouble for neglect if you are not giving your son his meds. CPS doesn't give a flip that your wife wants control of this.

Go to his doctor so you have documentation. But the doctor is likely to tell you if your won't give the boy his meds, you must do so.

His doctor is not the best, I would say (at least at raising an alarm)... he wakes up in the morning coughing and was waking up in the middle of the night coughing. We tried allergy medicine first because he has a lot of nasal drip going on, then I kept bringing him back in (while my wife was off having her affair) and the Doctor caught the wheezing. This happened because I was persistent. After a few weeks of both allergy medicine and the inhalers, I seemed to have it under control. He spent a week with Mom and didn't take his inhalers once..and it all seemed to come back. No one is saying that his life is in danger, but the fact that a 7 year is coughing like a smoker tells me that something is not right and it should be dealt with. The school also told me that he was coughing excessively after activity in the gym one day when I picked him up. With CPS.. it just becomes he said / she said. My wife says there is no problem. I am just about to cry right now because I just want to help my kids and she stands in the way... it's so hard to imagine a Mom like that. I feel so helpless.
Posted By: Woundednotbroken Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/13/15 12:20 AM
Im honestly horrified that you want to stay with a woman who has not only cheated on you, but is NEGLECTING and actually, medically abusing your children. Please don't stop giving your son his medication and taking him to speech therapy, no matter what your wife wants.
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/13/15 03:08 AM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Based on the suggestion above.. .I'm wondering if I could go to the school nurse, explain the situation and ask if she would be willing to do his inhalers with him at the beginning of school and before he leaves at the end of the day. Might that work?

I'd do it. It might not solve the situation, but it helps get the situation documented. That's another reason I'd talk to a doctor again as well. Tell everyone plain and simply that your wife is trying to prevent your son from taking prescribed medication.
Posted By: Ron_C Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/13/15 05:48 AM
Can anyone tell me what is wrong with theses WW mothers? I am a lose for words what thy are willing to do to there own kids. Thus includes my WW and my kids.
And this power trip stuff. Ahhhh.....
Posted By: Ron_C Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/14/15 03:54 AM
Hey, I listen to the you on the show, I don't remember anything about the kids being brought up.
Anyway, I feel your pain I am were you are it sounds like with my WW, we're she down right hates me and I can't get her to go out with me. Her affair ended it looks like, but instead of coming back she desided to join a dating site and is out meeting guys.

And her care of the kids is not there anymore. My step daughter seems to have gotten her anger and has hurt her.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/14/15 05:50 AM
Was this your show?

Radio Clip of typicalman's show
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/16/15 04:03 AM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts

Yes! this was the show.

I wrote a couple weeks ago and didn't bring up the issues with the children.

The other thing happening a lot is that each time the children fight or one of them gets hurt, mom says "what did dada do to you" ... "did dada punch you?, let me see it"... "did dada say a bad word"... 95% of the time my children say "no, Dada didn't do anything, this is what happened.." about 5% of the time they blame me for something to help get themselves out of trouble. It's truly bizarre behavior and I would imagine it confuses the children quite a bit. I really feel that something is really wrong and I'm considering calling child protective services... I'm just concerned that they are going to laugh at me because there is no physical harm and then it will be he said, she said.

You can hear Dr. Harley's hypothesis on the show about my wife... namely that she felt that I didn't care about her and justified her affair. At one point right before the break, Dr. Harley mentioned that "there may be something deeper going on" and I think there is something very much not right.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/16/15 04:09 AM
Originally Posted by Ron_C
Hey, I listen to the you on the show, I don't remember anything about the kids being brought up.
Anyway, I feel your pain I am were you are it sounds like with my WW, we're she down right hates me and I can't get her to go out with me. Her affair ended it looks like, but instead of coming back she desided to join a dating site and is out meeting guys.

And her care of the kids is not there anymore. My step daughter seems to have gotten her anger and has hurt her.

It's very sad... my wife refuses to wear her wedding ring (she claims to have pawned it). You can hear on that show that she didn't even mention my name at her reunion... she was really looking for an affair. Her angry outbursts are off the charts now. I'm getting afraid that she is going to hurt one of the children.. she gets to the point where she almost hits them.. then she makes up with them and turns to blame me for causing their behavior. I believe that my wife is really sick.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/16/15 04:20 AM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by Ron_C
Hey, I listen to the you on the show, I don't remember anything about the kids being brought up.
Anyway, I feel your pain I am were you are it sounds like with my WW, we're she down right hates me and I can't get her to go out with me. Her affair ended it looks like, but instead of coming back she desided to join a dating site and is out meeting guys.

And her care of the kids is not there anymore. My step daughter seems to have gotten her anger and has hurt her.

It's very sad... my wife refuses to wear her wedding ring (she claims to have pawned it). You can hear on that show that she didn't even mention my name at her reunion... she was really looking for an affair. Her angry outbursts are off the charts now. I'm getting afraid that she is going to hurt one of the children.. she gets to the point where she almost hits them.. then she makes up with them and turns to blame me for causing their behavior. I believe that my wife is really sick.

One of the things Dr Harley and Joyce mentioned a few times is to keep trying even though you get rejected. At some point, you just get numb to it... but I wonder if it makes a difference. At one point yesterday, I said " I say this because I care about you"...I got a really strange stare for a while.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/17/15 04:18 AM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by BrainHurts

Yes! this was the show.

I wrote a couple weeks ago and didn't bring up the issues with the children.

The other thing happening a lot is that each time the children fight or one of them gets hurt, mom says "what did dada do to you" ... "did dada punch you?, let me see it"... "did dada say a bad word"... 95% of the time my children say "no, Dada didn't do anything, this is what happened.." about 5% of the time they blame me for something to help get themselves out of trouble. It's truly bizarre behavior and I would imagine it confuses the children quite a bit. I really feel that something is really wrong and I'm considering calling child protective services... I'm just concerned that they are going to laugh at me because there is no physical harm and then it will be he said, she said.

You can hear Dr. Harley's hypothesis on the show about my wife... namely that she felt that I didn't care about her and justified her affair. At one point right before the break, Dr. Harley mentioned that "there may be something deeper going on" and I think there is something very much not right.
Are you wearing a VAR when you're around her?
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/17/15 03:17 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by BrainHurts

Yes! this was the show.

I wrote a couple weeks ago and didn't bring up the issues with the children.

The other thing happening a lot is that each time the children fight or one of them gets hurt, mom says "what did dada do to you" ... "did dada punch you?, let me see it"... "did dada say a bad word"... 95% of the time my children say "no, Dada didn't do anything, this is what happened.." about 5% of the time they blame me for something to help get themselves out of trouble. It's truly bizarre behavior and I would imagine it confuses the children quite a bit. I really feel that something is really wrong and I'm considering calling child protective services... I'm just concerned that they are going to laugh at me because there is no physical harm and then it will be he said, she said.

You can hear Dr. Harley's hypothesis on the show about my wife... namely that she felt that I didn't care about her and justified her affair. At one point right before the break, Dr. Harley mentioned that "there may be something deeper going on" and I think there is something very much not right.
Are you wearing a VAR when you're around her?

Most of the time, I have a VOR on somewhere. I'm also thinking of installing security camera's. I am concerned that she is going to be extremely angry that I put camera's up;

I can:
a) put them up and say I don't care what you think.
b) try to find some sort of hidden cameras to put up.
c) Threaten her that if she does not stop this non-sense, I will put camera's up
or
d) Forget about the camera's and just rely on VOR's
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/17/15 03:20 PM
I would put in hidden cameras. If she knows there are cameras there, she will just avoid them or disable them.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/17/15 03:23 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
[The other thing happening a lot is that each time the children fight or one of them gets hurt, mom says "what did dada do to you" ... "did dada punch you?, let me see it"... "did dada say a bad word"... 95% of the time my children say "no, Dada didn't do anything, this is what happened.." about 5% of the time they blame me for something to help get themselves out of trouble.

It sounds to me like she is building a case against you to get you kicked out of the house. I would imagine some attorney advised her to come home because she was hurting herself legally by moving out. If she can set the stage for your "abuse" she can get you kicked out.

One thing that puzzled me from your call is that you called her affair an "emotional affair." I can't remember your backstory, but didn't she move out to be with the OM?
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/17/15 04:14 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by typicalman
[The other thing happening a lot is that each time the children fight or one of them gets hurt, mom says "what did dada do to you" ... "did dada punch you?, let me see it"... "did dada say a bad word"... 95% of the time my children say "no, Dada didn't do anything, this is what happened.." about 5% of the time they blame me for something to help get themselves out of trouble.

It sounds to me like she is building a case against you to get you kicked out of the house. I would imagine some attorney advised her to come home because she was hurting herself legally by moving out. If she can set the stage for your "abuse" she can get you kicked out.

One thing that puzzled me from your call is that you called her affair an "emotional affair." I can't remember your backstory, but didn't she move out to be with the OM?


Firstly, the behavior is really odd.. and quite honestly, sickening. I am really kind and gentle to my children. She encourages them to hit me and bite me.... then tells them I abuse them. I really need to tell someone what is going on but who????

It wasn't clear on the show with regard to her moving out. She moved 2000 miles away and rented an apartment less than a mile away from the other man and two hours away from her mom. Her Mom cosigned the lease. I'm sure that her attorney told her that this looks really bad for her. She claims that she just handed to the key to her Mom and moved back and her mom has taken over the apartment.

She did not actually move in with the other man. The kids tell me that they did not really see the other man when they were there... maybe only a couple of times. When we called her on the phone, most of the time she was alone or going to another friends house. You could not call her though... she would shut off the phone and only turn it on when she wanted to call... so it was clear that she was seeing the other man in secret. The Affair was exposed and she denied it to everyone and still does to this day... so she could not have a relationship with him out in the open... .She has only been able to act as "friends" with him. and she claims to only have talked to him every couple weeks. She claims that she only saw him when she was somewhere and he happened to be there.

I'm really looking for what I can do about this really bizarre situation at home. She flied off on these rages yelling and screaming... it is quite scary and I am always kind and gentle with the kids. I don't yell, I don't spank.. nothing. She accuses me of hurting them and abusing them... and it feels like this is more sick and twisted than a "legal strategy"... I think that she is mentally ill and projecting her rages onto me. Last weekend, I got really scared for my kids. I want to protect them, but I'm worried that she will hit me or try to start a fight with me.. then blame me for it.

As far as getting me kicked out... yes, she needs to get me to abuse her. She has no way to afford to pay the bills for the house so she really can't stay there. Texas doesn't allow for spousal support so there is really nothing she can legally do to stay in the house and have me support her.

She is sick sick sick sick... and I don't know what to do about it... the children are being abused emotionally for sure!! My younger son came to the dinner table after he had previously said that he did not want to eat. He said that he came back because he "loves dada"... you should have seen the look on my wife's face. I thought she was going to beat him senseless... she yelled and screamed at him and threatened to spank him.. but she stopped short... he got teary and said "I love you mama" and she calmed down. She is soooo sick... and I feel like no one will believe me because I am the man.


Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/17/15 04:33 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
[
It wasn't clear on the show with regard to her moving out. She moved 2000 miles away and rented an apartment less than a mile away from the other man and two hours away from her mom. Her Mom cosigned the lease. I'm sure that her attorney told her that this looks really bad for her. She claims that she just handed to the key to her Mom and moved back and her mom has taken over the apartment.

Surely you understand this is not an "emotional affair?" I know you are not that delusional.

Quote
I'm really looking for what I can do about this really bizarre situation at home. She flied off on these rages yelling and screaming... it is quite scary and I am always kind and gentle with the kids. I don't yell, I don't spank.. nothing. She accuses me of hurting them and abusing them... and it feels like this is more sick and twisted than a "legal strategy"... I think that she is mentally ill and projecting her rages onto me. Last weekend, I got really scared for my kids. I want to protect them, but I'm worried that she will hit me or try to start a fight with me.. then blame me for it.

This is why I suggested you get legal help and protect yourself and your children before she does it to you.

Quote
She is sick sick sick sick... and I don't know what to do about it... the children are being abused emotionally for sure!! My younger son came to the dinner table after he had previously said that he did not want to eat. He said that he came back because he "loves dada"... you should have seen the look on my wife's face. I thought she was going to beat him senseless... she yelled and screamed at him and threatened to spank him.. but she stopped short... he got teary and said "I love you mama" and she calmed down. She is soooo sick... and I feel like no one will believe me because I am the man.

So what is your plan to protect your children?
Posted By: NebDane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/17/15 05:47 PM
Carry that VAR all the time, use it for these bizarre situations where she goes off the deep end.

It sure sounds like a legal strategy to me, set you up as an abuser, problem solved.

Talk to your attorney, you need to protect your kids and yourself.
Posted By: WalkTheWalk Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/17/15 06:06 PM


Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by typicalman
[The other thing happening a lot is that each time the children fight or one of them gets hurt, mom says "what did dada do to you" ... "did dada punch you?, let me see it"... "did dada say a bad word"... 95% of the time my children say "no, Dada didn't do anything, this is what happened.." about 5% of the time they blame me for something to help get themselves out of trouble.

It sounds to me like she is building a case against you to get you kicked out of the house. I would imagine some attorney advised her to come home because she was hurting herself legally by moving out. If she can set the stage for your "abuse" she can get you kicked out.

One thing that puzzled me from your call is that you called her affair an "emotional affair." I can't remember your backstory, but didn't she move out to be with the OM?


Firstly, the behavior is really odd.. and quite honestly, sickening. I am really kind and gentle to my children. She encourages them to hit me and bite me.... then tells them I abuse them. I really need to tell someone what is going on but who????

It wasn't clear on the show with regard to her moving out. She moved 2000 miles away and rented an apartment less than a mile away from the other man and two hours away from her mom. Her Mom cosigned the lease. I'm sure that her attorney told her that this looks really bad for her. She claims that she just handed to the key to her Mom and moved back and her mom has taken over the apartment.

She did not actually move in with the other man. The kids tell me that they did not really see the other man when they were there... maybe only a couple of times. When we called her on the phone, most of the time she was alone or going to another friends house. You could not call her though... she would shut off the phone and only turn it on when she wanted to call... so it was clear that she was seeing the other man in secret. The Affair was exposed and she denied it to everyone and still does to this day... so she could not have a relationship with him out in the open... .She has only been able to act as "friends" with him. and she claims to only have talked to him every couple weeks. She claims that she only saw him when she was somewhere and he happened to be there.

I'm really looking for what I can do about this really bizarre situation at home. She flied off on these rages yelling and screaming... it is quite scary and I am always kind and gentle with the kids. I don't yell, I don't spank.. nothing. She accuses me of hurting them and abusing them... and it feels like this is more sick and twisted than a "legal strategy"... I think that she is mentally ill and projecting her rages onto me. Last weekend, I got really scared for my kids. I want to protect them, but I'm worried that she will hit me or try to start a fight with me.. then blame me for it.

As far as getting me kicked out... yes, she needs to get me to abuse her. She has no way to afford to pay the bills for the house so she really can't stay there. Texas doesn't allow for spousal support so there is really nothing she can legally do to stay in the house and have me support her.

She is sick sick sick sick... and I don't know what to do about it... the children are being abused emotionally for sure!! My younger son came to the dinner table after he had previously said that he did not want to eat. He said that he came back because he "loves dada"... you should have seen the look on my wife's face. I thought she was going to beat him senseless... she yelled and screamed at him and threatened to spank him.. but she stopped short... he got teary and said "I love you mama" and she calmed down. She is soooo sick... and I feel like no one will believe me because I am the man.


1) Voice activated recorder on you at all times she is in town.
2) Install covert surveillance cameras (talk to your attorney to see if this is would be admitted in court)

3) Prepare to file and request a protective order once you have the evidence she is attempting to frame you for abuse.

Dr. Harley doesn't recommend attempting any MBing in an environment that is unsafe for either of the parties. This situation seems unsafe to me.
Posted By: zibbles Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/17/15 07:18 PM
Get a lawyer and figure out how to extract yourself and the kids from this situation. It can be done. It HAS been done. Jedi knight got full custody of his kids and so have others. This sounds like it's getting very, very dangerous for all concerned. FIND A WAY OUT.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/17/15 08:51 PM
Here are some options that I am considering:

a) I have an appointment with a new attorney next week. I will ask for full custody of the children and maximum financial protection. What is his plan.. and can he do it?

b) I can cut my WW off financially immediately if she will not agree to a) STOP abusing the children b) begin the MB program

c) Rent a house and move out with the kids. I would put my house on the market and cut off electricity & water. I will tell my WW that she can see the kids 3.5 days per/week once she has her own place and can support herself.

d) I can sit her down for a serious discussion: Tell her that I love her, I want to be with her for the long term, but the current situation cannot continue. If she chooses to do nothing, I will need to take action that includes separating from her and ending financial support for her.

e) I can install surveillance equipment in the house and continue with plan A until I have enough documented footage to prove her abuse and/or our love relationship is restored.

My GUT instinct is that this is not a well hatched legal plan on my WW's part. I think her attorney told her that without abuse, she didn't have a very strong legal footing. Infact.. she is in big trouble if I divorce her now with no way to support herself. The fact that she is trying to muster up this abuse seems feeble and obvious.. it's just not well carried out and I think she really has no clue what she is doing. If I had video tape.. you would see a sick person that needs to be in a mental hospital.

Any thoughts on my ideas above.. which I should try first???
Posted By: zibbles Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/17/15 08:56 PM
A. Good.

B. Don't throw gas on the fire until you have legal protection.

C. Don't throw gas on the fire until you have legal protection.

D. NO WAY. This will not help. Don't throw gas on the fire until you have legal protection.

E. YES.
Posted By: zibbles Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/17/15 08:57 PM
Stop trying to figure her out. Put your energy into figuring out how to extract yourself and the kids with minimal damage.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/17/15 09:41 PM
Originally Posted by zibbles
A. Good.

B. Don't throw gas on the fire until you have legal protection.

C. Don't throw gas on the fire until you have legal protection.

D. NO WAY. This will not help. Don't throw gas on the fire until you have legal protection.

E. YES.

With a and e only, I am not giving her any chance... I would just be blindsiding her with legal action. I do think I should give her as many opportunities as possible... I feel like she is testing me, but I am not really telling the consequence... it's all or nothing. Plan A and she responded... or a legal blindside. I'd like for her to know the consequences and that I mean business before she burys herself... I am still a loving, caring husband... so this is hard.
Posted By: zibbles Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/17/15 09:56 PM
You are in your own fog. This is a woman who absconded with your kids last summer. Pulled them out of school and took off! How many chances are you going to give her? You just go back and forth and back and forth. Meanwhile, she is launching an attack. You are going to get blindsided but go ahead, do it your way! Because no matter how much guidance you get here, you continue to do things your way when you don't like the advice you get.
Posted By: zibbles Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/17/15 09:57 PM
You don't mean business. You haven't meant business. You are wishy washy and she has the upper hand No amount of talking and discussing and being patient and loving is going to change that. You need to take action and stand for the right thing, which is the wellbeing of those kids.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/17/15 09:58 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Here are some options that I am considering:

a) I have an appointment with a new attorney next week. I will ask for full custody of the children and maximum financial protection. What is his plan.. and can he do it?

YES, better late than never.

Quote
b) I can cut my WW off financially immediately if she will not agree to a) STOP abusing the children b) begin the MB program

Cut her off financially so she does not ruin you. Protect your children from her by getting them out of there. She is not going to do the program so this is just a wasted effort.

Quote
c) Rent a house and move out with the kids. I would put my house on the market and cut off electricity & water. I will tell my WW that she can see the kids 3.5 days per/week once she has her own place and can support herself.

That is great. I am sure the kids would love to be abused every other day. crazy Get your kids out of there and fight for FULL custody with only supervised visitation with their mother.

Quote
d) I can sit her down for a serious discussion: Tell her that I love her, I want to be with her for the long term, but the current situation cannot continue. If she chooses to do nothing, I will need to take action that includes separating from her and ending financial support for her.


Whatever. She knows you don't mean it. More conflict avoidance that doesn't take your children into account. You need to stop talking and take action. PROTECT YOUR KIDS.

Quote
e) I can install surveillance equipment in the house and continue with plan A until I have enough documented footage to prove her abuse and/or our love relationship is restored.

Lets play kick the can down the road................

Quote
My GUT instinct is that this is not a well hatched legal plan on my WW's part. I think her attorney told her that without abuse, she didn't have a very strong legal footing. Infact.. she is in big trouble if I divorce her now with no way to support herself. The fact that she is trying to muster up this abuse seems feeble and obvious.. it's just not well carried out and I think she really has no clue what she is doing. If I had video tape.. you would see a sick person that needs to be in a mental hospital.

Every day that you dawdle and do nothing is antoher opportunity that she has to accuse you of "abuse" and get you kicked out and thrown in jail. You are playing iwth fire here. And that is ok to twiddle your thumbs playing kick the can down the road if it is JUST YOU, but you have children who are being abused by a mentally ill woman.

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/17/15 09:59 PM
Also, aren't you a yankee living in the south? I seem to remember a distinct yankee accent on the phone.
Posted By: zibbles Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/17/15 10:00 PM
It's no accident that you started a new thread instead of sticking with the original one. Most of us who were here last spring and summer don't even know she came back or what happened there. Its like you want everyone here to know how horrific you situation is but then you don't really want anyone to know. Your wishy washy approach is a symptom of your own fog. You have no idea the danger you're in right now and don't want to know. You will think you can appeal to her reason. THERE'S NO REASON TO APPEAL TO.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/17/15 10:35 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Also, aren't you a yankee living in the south? I seem to remember a distinct yankee accent on the phone.
I was born in upstate New York but have lived in the South for the last 13 years or so. I will never move back to the north. I have been told that I basically have no accent.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/17/15 10:48 PM
Originally Posted by zibbles
It's no accident that you started a new thread instead of sticking with the original one. Most of us who were here last spring and summer don't even know she came back or what happened there. Its like you want everyone here to know how horrific you situation is but then you don't really want anyone to know. Your wishy washy approach is a symptom of your own fog. You have no idea the danger you're in right now and don't want to know. You will think you can appeal to her reason. THERE'S NO REASON TO APPEAL TO.


That's not really true. I didn't want folks to have to re-read 100 or so pages.

I struggle with the concept that I married a purely evil person.

I do easily understand that I married a mentally ill person.

At this point, she is hurting the children soo much... I clearly need to have her taken out.

My last attorney told me that my most likely custody would be 50/50. That is why I am going for a new attorney at this point.... but the sad reality is that I can't just ask for full custody and get it. Even though she did what she did, the Judge down here still let her have 50/50 custody for temporary orders. Then, on top of that... he let her back into the house. None of that was my choice.


Once the temporary orders expired, my attorney told me to sign a lease for her and give her 50/50 custody. I let her back into the house so a) I don't have to pay rent for someone having an affair and b) I see my kids every day.

It's easy to just say...go get full custody.. but it's not that easy. Likely, this would need a jury trial. I'm not sure either that I want my kids future in the hands of a jury... nor want to spend away their college fund just to end up with joint custody at the end anyway.

If there is a way for a dad to win full custody without physical abuse...let me know. I'd do it in a heartbeat.
Posted By: Woundednotbroken Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/17/15 11:05 PM
Look, you need to get evidence of her abuse towards the children, and NOW. NOOOOOWWWWWWW. What she is already doing IS abuse. It is. Ignoring that thats damaging enough to win you custody is BS, frankly. Then you need to get your children the heck out of there. Every single day that you continue to allow this is another day your children are being abused and realizing that not one single adult in their life is protecting them. As someone who has been in your children's position, the longer you wait, the more resentful and distrusting they will become. If she's as bad as you're saying she is on here, it will be fairly simple to get the proof you need by quick video recording on your phone and a VAR.

This--- "The other thing happening a lot is that each time the children fight or one of them gets hurt, mom says "what did dada do to you" " THAT RIGHT THERE IS ABUSE. Record that. Video tape that. It will come out in discovery.
Posted By: zibbles Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/17/15 11:08 PM
Go look up Jedi knight. He got full custody. He fought like hell and he got it. There was another dad here when I got here in 2011. He had a posting name like dad's rights or something. There are resources out there! Keep looking.

Mental illness is not pure evil but untreated, it can be insurmountable to a healthy marriage and family.

I know this is hard. Be strong for the kids. You've been living with this trouble for so long, I don't think you see how serious it really is.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/17/15 11:19 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
[It's easy to just say...go get full custody.. but it's not that easy. Likely, this would need a jury trial. I'm not sure either that I want my kids future in the hands of a jury... nor want to spend away their college fund just to end up with joint custody at the end anyway.

One sure way to make sure you don't get full custody is to surrender before you arrive at the field of battle. I don't think your kids will give a ratsass about their college fund if it means they have to live wtih an abusive, sick parent.

Your wife wins if you surrender. Your children deserve much, much better. Jedi was so broke and dirt poor that he hardly had any food to eat. But he fought for his kids and got primary custody.

Another thing you can explore is using adultery as grounds in your case. Even tho you are in a no fault state, they take it into consideration when determining custody and property splits.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/17/15 11:22 PM
I can't believe you were on the show just a few days ago, and did not bring up this terribly worrying and dangerous situation with Dr H. What a wasted opportunity.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 12:04 AM

Don't they have a GAL where you are - an attorney for the kids? What state are you in?

I have heard of parents getting primary/sole custody for less serious issues/evidence than you are presenting on this thread.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 12:07 AM
Originally Posted by SugarCane
I can't believe you were on the show just a few days ago, and did not bring up this terribly worrying and dangerous situation with Dr H. What a wasted opportunity.

Another BS who has a death grip on their marriage. This one is taken to a whole 'nother level cuz he is still talking about winning his WW back when she is abusing the kids.

My goodness, typicalman. Wake up!!

Wake!!
Up!!!!

Posted By: SusieQ Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 12:07 AM

Dr Harley told me there are mistakes that you make in life that you reflect upon and that you learn from, grow from....he said the mistake my WxH made (divorcing because of his affair/s and remarrying - focusing on new wife vs kids) is the kind of mistake "you will never recover from".

Typicalman, you are making the kind of mistakes that you and your children will not recover from if you do not wake up! Forget about winning back your WW for heaven's sakes!!
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 12:13 AM

I dated a man who had sole custody and then primary once the courts allowed the mom to have visitation again. His issues were not as bad as yours. His son had autism and I think he just didn't feel she would provide a stable enough environment - he had to fight for it though and he won.

I have never heard that if you fight for custody of your kids because of the types of issues you have laid out on this thread, you will "probably end up 50/50" anyway. You have evidence of abuse, neglect, not giving medicine, and that your WW is unstable.

What I have heard is that ONCE CUSTODY IS SET, then it is extremely hard to get it changed.

Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 12:22 AM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
Don't they have a GAL where you are - an attorney for the kids? What state are you in?

I have heard of parents getting primary/sole custody for less serious issues/evidence than you are presenting on this thread.

Yes.. I have paid one 5 g's and she hasn't done squat.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 12:24 AM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
I have never heard that if you fight for custody of your kids because of the types of issues you have laid out on this thread, you will "probably end up 50/50" anyway. You have evidence of abuse, neglect, not giving medicine, and that your WW is unstable.
When you posted less than a month ago about your wife having a possible personality disorder, you described the symptoms as

Originally Posted by typicalman
Before the affair she still had the following symptoms:
#1 Rages (even raging on our wedding day that people have just now begun to tell me about)
#2 Very fragile emotional state
#3 Never apologizing, making excuses, blaming
#4 Putting me up on a pedestal early in the relationship, lots of sex, affection, extreme jealousy of any other relationship I would have... after getting married & having kids she began to knock me down
#5 stormy relationship.. getting close, pulling back
#6 difficulty negotiating, difficulty at work taking direction, blaming others
#7 Splitting.. people that are all "bad"; father, step father, & sometimes friends are "cast out" for a long period of time.
You were determined that she had a PD, yet you NEVER spoke about the kind of behaviour you have raised on this thread lately.

However, here you are today, writing about the very serious abuse of your kids by her, and yet you seem to think you can Plan A her out of a fog. You seem to think that the fog is your biggest problem.

But, as SusieQ says, you need to WAKE UP. Your wife is abusing your kids and yet you want to wait for an affair fog to clear, so that you can stay married. If you wife is doing the things you say she is doing, you need to separate the kids from her, YESTERDAY.

I don't know how anyone could watch their kids go through that and do nothing.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 12:25 AM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by SusieQ
Don't they have a GAL where you are - an attorney for the kids? What state are you in?

I have heard of parents getting primary/sole custody for less serious issues/evidence than you are presenting on this thread.

Yes.. I have paid one 5 g's and she hasn't done squat.

I would get an attorney who specializes in men's issues. You are going to have to hire a fighter to protect your kids. It is better for your kids to be protected from their mother than it is for you to pay for their college. Kids can pay their own way to college.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 12:25 AM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Yes.. I have paid one 5 g's and she hasn't done squat.
Why haven't you done something about that?
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 12:27 AM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
I dated a man who had sole custody and then primary once the courts allowed the mom to have visitation again. His issues were not as bad as yours. His son had autism and I think he just didn't feel she would provide a stable enough environment - he had to fight for it though and he won.

I have never heard that if you fight for custody of your kids because of the types of issues you have laid out on this thread, you will "probably end up 50/50" anyway. You have evidence of abuse, neglect, not giving medicine, and that your WW is unstable.

What I have heard is that ONCE CUSTODY IS SET, then it is extremely hard to get it changed.

It's all he said she said though... she says I'm a horrible, Abusive father and I beat the kids.. she will say that the kids didn't need their medicine. She outright lied in court already by saying that the kids didn't have asthma to begin with while I have proof otherwise. I've seen her in court... she says all kinds of crazy things. The judge doesn't seem to buy it... but also, she has an excuse for everything I put out as well.
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 12:56 AM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by zibbles
It's no accident that you started a new thread instead of sticking with the original one. Most of us who were here last spring and summer don't even know she came back or what happened there. Its like you want everyone here to know how horrific you situation is but then you don't really want anyone to know. Your wishy washy approach is a symptom of your own fog. You have no idea the danger you're in right now and don't want to know. You will think you can appeal to her reason. THERE'S NO REASON TO APPEAL TO.


That's not really true. I didn't want folks to have to re-read 100 or so pages.

I struggle with the concept that I married a purely evil person.

I do easily understand that I married a mentally ill person.

At this point, she is hurting the children soo much... I clearly need to have her taken out.

My last attorney told me that my most likely custody would be 50/50. That is why I am going for a new attorney at this point.... but the sad reality is that I can't just ask for full custody and get it. Even though she did what she did, the Judge down here still let her have 50/50 custody for temporary orders. Then, on top of that... he let her back into the house. None of that was my choice.


Once the temporary orders expired, my attorney told me to sign a lease for her and give her 50/50 custody. I let her back into the house so a) I don't have to pay rent for someone having an affair and b) I see my kids every day.

It's easy to just say...go get full custody.. but it's not that easy. Likely, this would need a jury trial. I'm not sure either that I want my kids future in the hands of a jury... nor want to spend away their college fund just to end up with joint custody at the end anyway.

If there is a way for a dad to win full custody without physical abuse...let me know. I'd do it in a heartbeat.

YES there is a way. You get a good attorney and you stick to it.

As for their college fund - please - most kids do just fine without a college fund. I certainly did. Waste of money, IMO. Nice to have if you can afford it. YOU CAN'T.
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 12:57 AM
Originally Posted by typicalman
It's all he said she said though... she says I'm a horrible, Abusive father and I beat the kids.. she will say that the kids didn't need their medicine. She outright lied in court already by saying that the kids didn't have asthma to begin with while I have proof otherwise.

Courts know how to handle that. They appoint a court trusted doctor or psychiatrist or whatever is necessary to find out the truth.

This is not a reason to not fight for custody of your kids.
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 12:59 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
It is better for your kids to be protected from their mother than it is for you to pay for their college. Kids can pay their own way to college.

YEP! And they will be better for it.

Take it from me. I desperately needed to be protected from my insane wayward mother. Had to put up with a court ordered psychiatrist for a bit, but thanks to my dad hiring a bulldog attorney and neither him nor me giving up, we all made it.

Paid my own way through college other than the first semester. Went to a state school which is what kids who have brains and no money to waste do.

Most college is a rip off nowadays.
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 01:19 AM
Originally Posted by typicalman
At this point, she is hurting the children soo much... I clearly need to have her taken out.

Let's focus on that.
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 01:25 AM
Slavery abolitionists in the 1800s knew that they would never get instant abolition. They knew that if it ever came, it would be gradual. That didn't stop them from urging immediate, instant, full abolition. If they had only fought for some wishy washy partial deal they would never have gotten anywhere.

You have to fight for the most you can get. You don't roll over and take less. You may well get less, but if you fight for less, you'll get nothing. You'll get abused crazy kids and a life of hell for you and for them.

If you aim for doing it gradually, you will never do it at all. In the words of William Lloyd Garrison, an abolitionist of the 1800s, "Gradualism in theory is perpetuity in practice. ... Urge immediate abolition as earnestly as we may, it will, alas! be gradual abolition in the end. We have never said that slavery would be overthrown by a single blow; that it ought to be, we shall always contend."

You should aim for doing it all at once. You won't hit that mark, but if you don't aim for it, you will always be holding something back.

FULL CUSTODY.
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 01:28 AM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by zibbles
A. Good.

B. Don't throw gas on the fire until you have legal protection.

C. Don't throw gas on the fire until you have legal protection.

D. NO WAY. This will not help. Don't throw gas on the fire until you have legal protection.

E. YES.

With a and e only, I am not giving her any chance... I would just be blindsiding her with legal action. I do think I should give her as many opportunities as possible... I feel like she is testing me, but I am not really telling the consequence... it's all or nothing. Plan A and she responded... or a legal blindside. I'd like for her to know the consequences and that I mean business before she burys herself... I am still a loving, caring husband... so this is hard.

This doesn't make any sense. Legal action should always be blindsiding. If she wants to do something after that, great, you are obviously open to it and you are not stopping her.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 01:33 AM

You have evidence of her screaming raging abuse and the GAL is doing NOTHING?

Coincidentally you are talking about Plan A'ing your WW....and when you spoke to Dr Harley on the radio show, you asked about your marriage and didn't touch upon the issue of how your children are being abused and you can't get the courts or the GAL to do anything?

Really??

Do you see how this doesn't make sense, typicalman?

What makes more sense is that you have not been fighting hard enough for your children because you are too busy trying to win back your wife.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 01:52 AM
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by typicalman
Yes.. I have paid one 5 g's and she hasn't done squat.
Why haven't you done something about that?
There is nothing I can do. She Is court appointed, I just pay the bill.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 02:03 AM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
You have evidence of her screaming raging abuse and the GAL is doing NOTHING?

Coincidentally you are talking about Plan A'ing your WW....and when you spoke to Dr Harley on the radio show, you asked about your marriage and didn't touch upon the issue of how your children are being abused and you can't get the courts or the GAL to do anything?

Really??

Do you see how this doesn't make sense, typicalman?

What makes more sense is that you have not been fighting hard enough for your children because you are too busy trying to win back your wife.

Do you see why I am frustrated by the legal process? I have spent $100K already fighting for these kids. Leaving the country is starting to look like a good option.

The children's attorney did ask the court for a physcological evaluation... but nothing has happened. My kids therapist also called and begged for her to do something.. but nothing has happened. I am beside myself. I think the new attorney I may end up using is more of a Texas bulldog.... I am almost out of money... but I know my wife is really out of money... so that may be some levrrage. My WW will fold over if she were to know that there is a good chance I will get full custody. My best hope is the physcological evaluation which she does not want. Every therapist that has seen her says it's obvious. She had had meltdowns in front ofv th he judge. The Judge even sent her to time out.
Posted By: NebDane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 03:22 AM
You don't have a strong attorney or really lazy, you need to interview a few.
If she is going for divorce now that it is filed, you must go in battle mode with the attorney as your field marshall (attorney needs to be COMPLETELY ruthless).

You can blame it all on the attorney if the wayward complains (no LB that way).

War has been declared on you and your children officially now, what are you going to do about it? You were already in a war, i forgot she kidnapped them
Your kids want you to be a MAN.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 03:48 AM
Originally Posted by NebDane
You don't have a strong attorney or really lazy, you need to interview a few.
If she is going for divorce now that it is filed, you must go in battle mode with the attorney as your field marshall (attorney needs to be COMPLETELY ruthless).

You can blame it all on the attorney if the wayward complains (no LB that way).

War has been declared on you and your children officially now, what are you going to do about it? You were already in a war, i forgot she kidnapped them
Your kids want you to be a MAN.


She wants to take me for everything... that is true. Her anger though comes from hurt. She is deeply hurt that she feels that I don't care for her. Telling her she had an affair and could not see her boyfriend anymore was an afront to her. She cannot see how illogical this all is. If we get back to the basics... her taker is in charge.. because of her own hurt. Her hurt really comes from a disorder and I really belive that.

She is a real person with real feelings and my hart melts for the pain she must be feeling.

Just like a drug addict... she needs tough love. I am prepared to do that. I need the right attorney to do this and the one I had may not have been it.

My wife does NOT want a divorce though. She wants to push me to see how far I will let her go run amuck. She Is Testing me. If I do divorce her, she wants to be able to fight back which is where the abuse stuff is likely comming from. This is what my gut is saying is the truith.

I am reaching the limit though on what I am willing to put up with. She is a good mom at times and terrible at other times. She is pitching in around the house and she is even working part time. I do see baby, baby steps. She has quite dramatic mood swings.

Unlike her, I do not "split". She is not all good or all bad. I can't make her into this monster that I need to destroy.

I will go to this lawyer and approach him exactly as DR Harley recommended and get some type of plan. I already know him and have consulted with him previously. He has both criminal and family law experience and has been in practice for a long time. He works on weekends. He thinks I am way too nice and he will want to tear her up.
Posted By: zibbles Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 03:59 AM
This is crazy. Every time the posters here start to tell it like it is, you start defending her and back away from what needs to be done. Do you see this? You are defending her and trying to make sense of things that don't make sense. I hope your next lawyer goes into battle mode and you allow it because you continue to back away from the fight at the drop of a hat.
Posted By: zibbles Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 04:00 AM
I'd stay married too if I were her. Her bills get paid, she gets to do whatever she wants and she terrorizes the family. A pretty sweet deal for someone who has NO intention of behaving with even a shred of care for others.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 04:19 AM
Originally Posted by typicalman
[Unlike her, I do not "split". She is not all good or all bad. I can't make her into this monster that I need to destroy.

I am unclear why you want to "make her into a monster?" What is the point of that? You don't need to "destroy" her in order to protect your children. It seems like you are getting very unfocused here and forgetting the reason behind this whole discussion: GETTING PROTECTION FOR YOUR CHILDREN.

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 04:19 AM
Originally Posted by typicalman
[My wife does NOT want a divorce though.

Of course not, you are her personal ATM.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 10:39 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by typicalman
[My wife does NOT want a divorce though.

Of course not, you are her personal ATM.

Exactly... my point though is that her "taker" is in charge. I would like to see her "giver" come back. It's just like the story of Jon and Sue in "surviving an affair ". Sue only came back because she had no where to go. Sue took the kids away from Jon. Sue kicked Jon out of his house. Her actions were diplorable. I too struggle with that... but by spending time with Jon, she came out of the Fog.

I gave Dr. Harley alot of information and he didn't necessarily use all of it on the air but we talked off-air a bit too.

He addressed the fact that she has really bad intentions. It's hard to plan A someone who basically hates you... but isn't that the case most of the time? Dr Harley talks alot about the abuse that betrayed spouse endures. The children are abused horribly too... and that's why Afairs cause so much hurt.

In my case... the OM is just someone to "talk to" but my WW is so selfish, she will not end the relationship. This extreme " selfishness" is where the likely personality disorder comes in. Having a "taker" is normal...but being this far to the extreme is not normal.

I need a really good lawyer to help protect me from her... I'm doing that. I'm following all Dr Harley ' s suggestions... and he knows what I am up against. My WW is like having another 5 year old child... but I need to outsmart her and be one step ahead. It's really sad to live this way.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 10:42 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by typicalman
[Unlike her, I do not "split". She is not all good or all bad. I can't make her into this monster that I need to destroy.

I am unclear why you want to "make her into a monster?" What is the point of that? You don't need to "destroy" her in order to protect your children. It seems like you are getting very unfocused here and forgetting the reason behind this whole discussion: GETTING PROTECTION FOR YOUR CHILDREN.

How do you win full custody without making the other parent look really bad? You have too.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 01:31 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by typicalman
[My wife does NOT want a divorce though.

Of course not, you are her personal ATM.

Exactly... my point though is that her "taker" is in charge. I would like to see her "giver" come back. It's just like the story of Jon and Sue in "surviving an affair ". Sue only came back because she had no where to go. Sue took the kids away from Jon. Sue kicked Jon out of his house. Her actions were diplorable. I too struggle with that... but by spending time with Jon, she came out of the Fog.

I gave Dr. Harley alot of information and he didn't necessarily use all of it on the air but we talked off-air a bit too.

He addressed the fact that she has really bad intentions. It's hard to plan A someone who basically hates you... but isn't that the case most of the time? Dr Harley talks alot about the abuse that betrayed spouse endures. The children are abused horribly too... and that's why Afairs cause so much hurt.

In my case... the OM is just someone to "talk to" but my WW is so selfish, she will not end the relationship. This extreme " selfishness" is where the likely personality disorder comes in. Having a "taker" is normal...but being this far to the extreme is not normal.

I need a really good lawyer to help protect me from her... I'm doing that. I'm following all Dr Harley ' s suggestions... and he knows what I am up against. My WW is like having another 5 year old child... but I need to outsmart her and be one step ahead. It's really sad to live this way.

What does any of this have to do with the price of tea in China? crazy Instead of typing long winded, meaningless posts, you should be getting a bulldog attorney who will help you get full custody of your children.

We also know what you are "up against" but have more information than what you apparently gave Dr Harley.

How about keeping your focus on your children?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 01:34 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by typicalman
[Unlike her, I do not "split". She is not all good or all bad. I can't make her into this monster that I need to destroy.

I am unclear why you want to "make her into a monster?" What is the point of that? You don't need to "destroy" her in order to protect your children. It seems like you are getting very unfocused here and forgetting the reason behind this whole discussion: GETTING PROTECTION FOR YOUR CHILDREN.

How do you win full custody without making the other parent look really bad? You have too.

The LEAST of your problems is whether or not your wife "looks bad." Your children are being abused and, as their father, it is up to you to protect them.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 02:27 PM
This is really a grey area;

I think my wife is not completely a "bad mom"... the children still love her... although they are shifting towards building a stronger bond with Dad more and more each day.

The main problem with regard to abuse is that she is completely disrespectful to me in front of the kids. She completely uses the kids as her weapon against me. She also feels that she knows better what is best for the kids than me, doctors, teachers, the police... anyone else. She decided that the kids don't need their car seats anymore even though they still do by law. She decides that they don't really need their medicine. She decides if the teacher is right or wrong. In her mind, she is being a good mom and as such she knows best.

I met with our marriage councilor yesterday and he thinks it is narcissism.

Here is another story that I will give you (which falls in the grey are... and possibly, plan A is actually working)

Last night my wife was having my older son read. That is really good! I wanted to listen and see how he was doing.

At one point, he said "dada... mama is making me do something boring"

I said... "story of my life"

To put this in context, just last weekend my wife made a comment that she missed my sarcasm.. .I'm too serious. I thought that comment was funny. I guess it was not.

My wife said "fine... you read with him"... so I did. but she went and got into bed with her clothes on and pulled the covers over her head. I came in later and told her that I was sorry and that it must of hurt her feelings. Clearly, it did. She kinda got on the offensive and said that I was a bad father.

The point is, I made a mistake by trying to be funny... but the more significant point is a couple things:
#1 In my opinion, my wife has no or very little "emotional skin"; she cannot handle any form of criticism
#2 She must actually have some feelings still invested in how I think about her. If she simply hated me and was in withdrawal, I don't see how my sarcasm would have any effect on her... but it DID. As we discussed with Dr. Harley.. she is looking and wanting me to prove that I do care about her.

You can tell me if you think my joke was not funny or mean spirited...(it was not intended that way... and in all the years of our relationship history we could crack jokes and take little jabs at eachother... she has indicated multiple times that she missed that) but my view is that she is really, really over sensitive right now because she is trying to figure out if I care about her.

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 03:26 PM
My suggestion would be to focus all of your attention on protecting your children legally rather than make these meaningless, long winded posts. They are only a distraction.

You seem to like to defend your wife, why not focus on defending your children?
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 03:39 PM
help me..how is my wife's behavior different from Sue???

I think Sue's behavior was outrageous too and Dr Harley probably sugar coated it in his book. She was clearly ruthless kicking her husband out of his house and taking the kids away from him. I was quite shocked that Jon took her back as well... but Dr Harley says their marriage is now good. How is this different?
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 04:08 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
help me..how is my wife's behavior different from Sue???

I think Sue's behavior was outrageous too and Dr Harley probably sugar coated it in his book. She was clearly ruthless kicking her husband out of his house and taking the kids away from him. I was quite shocked that Jon took her back as well... but Dr Harley says their marriage is now good. How is this different?

Can we focus on your children?? We don't care about your WW or SAA because your children are being abused.

Have you called the doctor to bring in your son and have it documented in the medical record that your WW is teaching him not take his medicine and as a result he has started coughing (a sign that he can't breath) again?

Have you notified the GAL that this is happening?

I don't want to hear about your WW or her fog anymore so don't bother posting about that.

Posted By: NebDane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 04:24 PM
typicalman,
what are you doing today, tomorrow, this week to get an attorney to actually work for you and your children.

You continue to be an apologist for your wayward. Stop trying to analyze her, you can't! She is a fogged out machine. Not everything she does relates to Sue and SAA, not everything she does has meaning. I would say almost all she does has no meaning except to build a case against you.
You are so desperately looking for a crumb that points to recovery, you are hurting your kids. You are a million miles from recovery, so stop looking for it.

What are you doing meeting with a marriage counselor? Why, why, why?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 04:31 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
help me..how is my wife's behavior different from Sue???

I think Sue's behavior was outrageous too and Dr Harley probably sugar coated it in his book. She was clearly ruthless kicking her husband out of his house and taking the kids away from him. I was quite shocked that Jon took her back as well... but Dr Harley says their marriage is now good. How is this different?

That is where you are headed if you don't stop making these distracting, meaningless posts and take care of your children. Do you want to get kicked out and prevented from seeing your children?

FOCUSFOCUSFOCUSFOCUS!!
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 04:31 PM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
Originally Posted by typicalman
help me..how is my wife's behavior different from Sue???

I think Sue's behavior was outrageous too and Dr Harley probably sugar coated it in his book. She was clearly ruthless kicking her husband out of his house and taking the kids away from him. I was quite shocked that Jon took her back as well... but Dr Harley says their marriage is now good. How is this different?

Can we focus on your children?? We don't care about your WW or SAA because your children are being abused.

Have you called the doctor to bring in your son and have it documented in the medical record that your WW is teaching him not take his medicine and as a result he has started coughing (a sign that he can't breath) again?

Have you notified the GAL that this is happening?

I don't want to hear about your WW or her fog anymore so don't bother posting about that.

I went to the school yesterday and asked them to start documenting his coughing especially after gym class. The GAL knows about the problems... doing nothing. I am going to visit his doctor too. I have an appointment with a new Lawyer.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 04:32 PM
your children?? REMEMBER THEM?
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 04:33 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by SusieQ
Originally Posted by typicalman
help me..how is my wife's behavior different from Sue???

I think Sue's behavior was outrageous too and Dr Harley probably sugar coated it in his book. She was clearly ruthless kicking her husband out of his house and taking the kids away from him. I was quite shocked that Jon took her back as well... but Dr Harley says their marriage is now good. How is this different?

Can we focus on your children?? We don't care about your WW or SAA because your children are being abused.

Have you called the doctor to bring in your son and have it documented in the medical record that your WW is teaching him not take his medicine and as a result he has started coughing (a sign that he can't breath) again?

Have you notified the GAL that this is happening?

I don't want to hear about your WW or her fog anymore so don't bother posting about that.

I went to the school yesterday and asked them to start documenting his coughing especially after gym class. The GAL knows about the problems... doing nothing. I am going to visit his doctor too. I have an appointment with a new Lawyer.

I also have VOR's going all the time now. Anything else I should do?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 04:37 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
[
I went to the school yesterday and asked them to start documenting his coughing especially after gym class. The GAL knows about the problems... doing nothing. I am going to visit his doctor too. I have an appointment with a new Lawyer.

GOOD!! Now, this is the kind of post you should be making. Put aside your wife and focus 100% on protecting your CHILDREN!
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 04:38 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by SusieQ
Originally Posted by typicalman
help me..how is my wife's behavior different from Sue???

I think Sue's behavior was outrageous too and Dr Harley probably sugar coated it in his book. She was clearly ruthless kicking her husband out of his house and taking the kids away from him. I was quite shocked that Jon took her back as well... but Dr Harley says their marriage is now good. How is this different?

Can we focus on your children?? We don't care about your WW or SAA because your children are being abused.

Have you called the doctor to bring in your son and have it documented in the medical record that your WW is teaching him not take his medicine and as a result he has started coughing (a sign that he can't breath) again?

Have you notified the GAL that this is happening?

I don't want to hear about your WW or her fog anymore so don't bother posting about that.

I went to the school yesterday and asked them to start documenting his coughing especially after gym class. The GAL knows about the problems... doing nothing. I am going to visit his doctor too. I have an appointment with a new Lawyer.

She may be doing nothing because you don't have it medically documented.

You should have brought your son to the doctor as soon as you heard him coughing and realized it was because he was not taking his medicine.

My daughter had asthma and if we heard her coughing we immediately used her nebulizer and if she continued to cough she was brought to the doctor, sometimes hospital immediately.

You are not taking this seriously enough.

Wake up!!
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by SusieQ
Originally Posted by typicalman
help me..how is my wife's behavior different from Sue???

I think Sue's behavior was outrageous too and Dr Harley probably sugar coated it in his book. She was clearly ruthless kicking her husband out of his house and taking the kids away from him. I was quite shocked that Jon took her back as well... but Dr Harley says their marriage is now good. How is this different?

Can we focus on your children?? We don't care about your WW or SAA because your children are being abused.

Have you called the doctor to bring in your son and have it documented in the medical record that your WW is teaching him not take his medicine and as a result he has started coughing (a sign that he can't breath) again?

Have you notified the GAL that this is happening?

I don't want to hear about your WW or her fog anymore so don't bother posting about that.

I went to the school yesterday and asked them to start documenting his coughing especially after gym class. The GAL knows about the problems... doing nothing. I am going to visit his doctor too. I have an appointment with a new Lawyer.

She may be doing nothing because you don't have it medically documented.

You should have brought your son to the doctor as soon as you heard him coughing and realized it was because he was not taking his medicine.

My daughter had asthma and if we heard her coughing we immediately used her nebulizer and if she continued to cough she was brought to the doctor, sometimes hospital immediately.

You are not taking this seriously enough.

Wake up!!


The only way to take my son to the doctor is to pull him out of school in the middle of the day without my wife knowing... which I may have to do... If I get caught, she will start a physical fight with me to prevent me from taking him... the same way she would physically assault me if I tried to give him medicine at home.

Let me see what the school comes up with in regard to his coughing. The problem is that the symptoms are worse when he gets up in the morning when only me and my wife are around... so it's he said / she said. I still struggle to understand why she acts the way that she does...

In some conversations she will say to me... "you take a pill every time there is something wrong" "I don't want my kids growing up like that"... She is usually OK about antibiotics... but for allergies and asthma, she is against it. I think that one of the reasons is that she does not have allergies or asthma herself... so she does not empathize with the suffering (I do... so I can empathize with them)..

In general, my wife is not really able to have or show any real empathy which I think is part of her personality disorder. If I come home from work with a cold or something... she is horribly offended. I am lazy, I am in a bad mood, and I don't care about my family is how she typically perceives things if I am sick.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 06:14 PM

You need to set up a camera to capture these things.
You need to call the police when she physically assaults you.
You need to take your son to the doctor to document the fact that he is coughing and your WW won't let you give him medicine.

You need to find a way to make these things happen. No excuses.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 07:12 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
The only way to take my son to the doctor is to pull him out of school in the middle of the day without my wife knowing... which I may have to do... If I get caught, she will start a physical fight with me to prevent me from taking him... the same way she would physically assault me if I tried to give him medicine at home.

You are joking, right? You have a responsibility to take your child to the doctor if he needs medical treatment. I would love to hear you tell a Texas judge you neglected your son's health because you feared your wife would whip your [censored]. That would not fly!!

Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 07:34 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by typicalman
The only way to take my son to the doctor is to pull him out of school in the middle of the day without my wife knowing... which I may have to do... If I get caught, she will start a physical fight with me to prevent me from taking him... the same way she would physically assault me if I tried to give him medicine at home.

You are joking, right? You have a responsibility to take your child to the doctor if he needs medical treatment. I would love to hear you tell a Texas judge you neglected your son's health because you feared your wife would whip your [censored]. That would not fly!!

It's true. My wife will hit me... then claim I hit her. She yells at me and claims I yell at her. Everything she does is projected back onto me. She will pull the children away from me by the arm and then claim that I abused the children by pulling their arm. I can only walk away from her when she gets violent. I just can't win... It is so hard to be a man getting abused by a woman because everyone assumes that I am the guilty one. I have played recordings of my wife raging at me for my attorney... but she will not use it. My wife claims that I abuse her by recording her. My wife has an affair... but my attorney says that I may lose custody of the kids because I told them about it. Everything is soo backwards.
Posted By: Ron_C Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 07:41 PM
Get a new attorney,call CPS. You need temp orders and get her to leave if this is what's going on. If my WW hit me, I would be doing what I can to kicker her out and get a restraining order.
Physical abusive is crossing the line. I can deal with emotional abuse, but physical abuse is dangerous.
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 07:43 PM
Then you get a new attorney who can help you.
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 07:43 PM
And you call the police each and every time she hits you.
Posted By: axslinger85 Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 08:00 PM
Policemen wear body cameras and their recordings are treated as court admissible evidence of what happened in situations involving assault.

If you know a completely reasonable action such as pulling your kid out of school will cause your wife to assault you, I would spend $100 or so and do the same as the cops do. A camera like that is both small and easy to operate nowadays.

Your wife has a gun to your head in terms of the threat she is to you and your children. Her motivations (past hurt, your behavior, etc) are completely irrelevant until you do the actions needs to eliminate that threat. Nobody with a gun to their head sits around wondering whether the person pointing it at them had a bad day/week/year, bad childhood, etc.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 08:01 PM
She usually doesn't hit me very hard... it just sets a bad example for the children. I cannot call the police because she will just say that I hit her.. then I go to jail.

Only once, she really hurt me and split my lip. I was being a jerk and deserved it that time so I did not call. She will pull on the kids though.. .like tug of war. I don't wan the kids to get hurt or caught in between, so I just walk away.

She is a master at controlling me through physical threats and claiming abuse if I fight back.

Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 08:09 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
She usually doesn't hit me very hard... it just sets a bad example for the children. I cannot call the police because she will just say that I hit her.. then I go to jail.

Only once, she really hurt me and split my lip. I was being a jerk and deserved it that time so I did not call. She will pull on the kids though.. .like tug of war. I don't wan the kids to get hurt or caught in between, so I just walk away.

She is a master at controlling me through physical threats and claiming abuse if I fight back.

tm, I don't have time to chat. If you can't or won't follow these suggestions, I'll spend my time helping people who will.

Call the police each and every time.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 08:36 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by typicalman
She usually doesn't hit me very hard... it just sets a bad example for the children. I cannot call the police because she will just say that I hit her.. then I go to jail.

Only once, she really hurt me and split my lip. I was being a jerk and deserved it that time so I did not call. She will pull on the kids though.. .like tug of war. I don't wan the kids to get hurt or caught in between, so I just walk away.

She is a master at controlling me through physical threats and claiming abuse if I fight back.

tm, I don't have time to chat. If you can't or won't follow these suggestions, I'll spend my time helping people who will.

Call the police each and every time.


I have talked to the police... unless there is blood, broken bones etc.. they don't do anything.

What if I file a civil lawsuit requesting an injunction to give my son his medicine?

I suppose that would be a love buster???
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 08:55 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
It's true. My wife will hit me... then claim I hit her. She yells at me and claims I yell at her. Everything she does is projected back onto me. She will pull the children away from me by the arm and then claim that I abused the children by pulling their arm. I can only walk away from her when she gets violent. I just can't win... It is so hard to be a man getting abused by a woman because everyone assumes that I am the guilty one. I have played recordings of my wife raging at me for my attorney... but she will not use it. My wife claims that I abuse her by recording her. My wife has an affair... but my attorney says that I may lose custody of the kids because I told them about it. Everything is soo backwards.

You are the only one who is being backwards here. You should keep a VAR on you at all times and call the police when she hits you. Stop being silly and grow some balls!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 08:56 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
She usually doesn't hit me very hard... it just sets a bad example for the children. I cannot call the police because she will just say that I hit her.. then I go to jail.

Only once, she really hurt me and split my lip. I was being a jerk and deserved it that time so I did not call. She will pull on the kids though.. .like tug of war. I don't wan the kids to get hurt or caught in between, so I just walk away.

She is a master at controlling me through physical threats and claiming abuse if I fight back.

yep, you are a bigger problem than her because you are an ENABLER. Stop enabling her and man up! GOOD GRIEF.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 10:05 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by typicalman
She usually doesn't hit me very hard... it just sets a bad example for the children. I cannot call the police because she will just say that I hit her.. then I go to jail.

Only once, she really hurt me and split my lip. I was being a jerk and deserved it that time so I did not call. She will pull on the kids though.. .like tug of war. I don't wan the kids to get hurt or caught in between, so I just walk away.

She is a master at controlling me through physical threats and claiming abuse if I fight back.

yep, you are a bigger problem than her because you are an ENABLER. Stop enabling her and man up! GOOD GRIEF.

You are right... I feel like I created this monster by enabling this behavior over the years. Up until the time she left and I got 3rd party help... I didn't know. I was gas-lighted into thinking that I was the bad-guy, abuser, etc... I finally put my foot down when she had an affair and she went bazerk and the rest is history.

I think everyone is afraid of her though... I never knew I married a woman that could instill so much fear in people. She was so nice and sweet when I met her... I thought she was a saint.

I do think I need a good lawyer that can play hard ball with her, take some calculated risks and put her on the defensive. My current attorney played very calm, caught her on a few lies, but mostly played defense.

I am scared of her yes... I should be. She is a dangerous woman. She can easily have me put in Jail... she almost killed the entire family on the road... she crashed into my car twice when it was parked, she filed a false restraining order... of course I am scared of her. What is the next crazy thing she is going to do that will cost me $25,000 in legal fees, cause me property damage, or make me lose my job and health insurance.

Think of it this way... if try to get my son his inhaler lands me in jail, then what good am I too him? I will lose custody & more...

This is alot harder than you make it out to be.

I'm trying to maintain a full time job on top of all this and I am the only one that supports the family. It's not that easy to for me to play full time spy games at the same time.

I can wear a camera, but she will likely find it... I usually wear jeans and a tee shirt at home (& cowboy boots... and I have plenty of guns... see ML I am no yankee) but where can I hide a camera? The police have them yes.. but not hidden. Any ideas???

I'm 6 ft tall, 200 lbs... I ain't scare of anyone, but my wife terrifies me.
Posted By: NebDane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 10:38 PM
You list several things she did, you have enough to talk to your attorney about that are more than dangerous and scary. If she is that crazy, she will do more.

Get the guns out of the house immediately along with any other weapons! A crazed wayward will use weapons against you in a trumped up restraining order, saying you are unstable and capable of violence at anytime.(i experienced this myself)
Take them to a friend or rent a locker or something for safe keeping.

MAN UP!
Listen, I was also afraid of my wayward, i finally stood up to her. I didnt save my marriage, but i saved myself and my kids. I regained my dignity.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 10:48 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by typicalman
She usually doesn't hit me very hard... it just sets a bad example for the children. I cannot call the police because she will just say that I hit her.. then I go to jail.

Only once, she really hurt me and split my lip. I was being a jerk and deserved it that time so I did not call. She will pull on the kids though.. .like tug of war. I don't wan the kids to get hurt or caught in between, so I just walk away.

She is a master at controlling me through physical threats and claiming abuse if I fight back.

yep, you are a bigger problem than her because you are an ENABLER. Stop enabling her and man up! GOOD GRIEF.

You are right... I feel like I created this monster by enabling this behavior over the years. Up until the time she left and I got 3rd party help... I didn't know. I was gas-lighted into thinking that I was the bad-guy, abuser, etc... I finally put my foot down when she had an affair and she went bazerk and the rest is history.

I think everyone is afraid of her though... I never knew I married a woman that could instill so much fear in people. She was so nice and sweet when I met her... I thought she was a saint.

I do think I need a good lawyer that can play hard ball with her, take some calculated risks and put her on the defensive. My current attorney played very calm, caught her on a few lies, but mostly played defense.

I am scared of her yes... I should be. She is a dangerous woman. She can easily have me put in Jail... she almost killed the entire family on the road... she crashed into my car twice when it was parked, she filed a false restraining order... of course I am scared of her. What is the next crazy thing she is going to do that will cost me $25,000 in legal fees, cause me property damage, or make me lose my job and health insurance.

Think of it this way... if try to get my son his inhaler lands me in jail, then what good am I too him? I will lose custody & more...

This is alot harder than you make it out to be.

I'm trying to maintain a full time job on top of all this and I am the only one that supports the family. It's not that easy to for me to play full time spy games at the same time.

I can wear a camera, but she will likely find it... I usually wear jeans and a tee shirt at home (& cowboy boots... and I have plenty of guns... see ML I am no yankee) but where can I hide a camera? The police have them yes.. but not hidden. Any ideas???

I'm 6 ft tall, 200 lbs... I ain't scare of anyone, but my wife terrifies me.

More excuses. If you spent this much effort on protecting your children you would be far ahead. You have a responsibility to get your child healthcare. You need to man up and do it.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 10:49 PM
Put a VAR in your pocket.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 10:59 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Put a VAR in your pocket.

I have.. I wish I could post some sound clips so you know what I am dealing with. I think my prior lawyer didn't want to use any of it because it makes me look abusive for recording or taking videos of her even though it is legal.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 11:00 PM
If your wife ever hits or pushes you again you need to call 911 and have her thrown in jail. And don't try to tell me they won't throw her in jail for assault.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/18/15 11:02 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Put a VAR in your pocket.

I have.. I wish I could post some sound clips so you know what I am dealing with. I think my prior lawyer didn't want to use any of it because it makes me look abusive for recording or taking videos of her even though it is legal.

Put a VAR in your pocket and keep it there at all times. Instead making more excuses how about making plans to take the child to a doctor and buying a VAR?
Posted By: BlindSighted2013 Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/19/15 12:53 AM
Is there some reason that you can't post sound clips? Just asking.

Others have already mentioned hiding a camera. This is really just silly at this point...you describe such abusive treatment and yet you cower from finding a way to prove it to the courts?
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/19/15 11:10 AM
Originally Posted by BlindSighted2013
Is there some reason that you can't post sound clips? Just asking.

Others have already mentioned hiding a camera. This is really just silly at this point...you describe such abusive treatment and yet you cower from finding a way to prove it to the courts?

My attorney would not use the audio in court. I think she felt it would backfire for making me look like an abuser for recording her.

I have been online and found a few ideas for a hidden camera. You need to keep in mind... between my wife and the kids... they will put their hands in my pockets already to take my cell phone away from me. Yes... my wife has done this a few times to go through my cell phone. So I can't wear a camera without it being found.

My wife won't get physical with me if I do what she wants me to do. Also, she won't just hit me out of the blue unless I say something offensive. I haven't been doing anything to provoke her.

If I forced my son to take his medication, she would surely come assault me without question. If I call the police, she will surely tell them that I was hurting the child. That's how it would go diwn. The police will probably not arrest anyone without obvious injuries, but they will make one of us leave the house. Which one do you think that would be? Seriously... unless she causes serious injury to me, calling the police is a bad option. I will discuss that with my attorney though.

I did call the police on her once already. She told the police that I was abusing the children. The police saw no evidence of that. I had paperwork that she was not supposed to be at the house and that's all that saved me.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/19/15 12:26 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
[If I forced my son to take his medication, she would surely come assault me without question. If I call the police, she will surely tell them that I was hurting the child. That's how it would go diwn. The police will probably not arrest anyone without obvious injuries, but they will make one of us leave the house. Which one do you think that would be? Seriously... unless she causes serious injury to me, calling the police is a bad option. I will discuss that with my attorney though.

Of course it is not a bad option. If you are assaulted, you should call the police and file a report every time. Don't be silly. Keep a voice activated recorder in your pocket at all times so you can play it back for the police. All of these silly hypotheticals are nothing more than excuses.

In the meantime, you have a responsibility and an obligation to take your son to the doctor for his medical needs. All of these lame excuses do not erase that responsibility. If you won't take care of your child's medical needs, you might have your kids taken away from you.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/19/15 12:29 PM
As the parent here, you need to do the right thing for your child and stop worrying about your own skin. You need to worry about your SON, not yourself. If she hits you, then do the right thing and call the police. You don't need to consult with your attorney to know that. Another nonsensical delaying tactic.

DO THE RIGHT THING and stop operating in FEAR.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/19/15 01:54 PM
Actually, it isn't assault to force a minor child to take LIFEsAVING medication.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/19/15 01:55 PM
Also, if you call the police, she is the one put out. Youneed to call the police everytime to establish the pattern of behavior.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/19/15 01:56 PM
You are getting a new attorney, right?
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/19/15 03:10 PM
Originally Posted by apples123
You are getting a new attorney, right?

YES... let me talk to that new attorney first.

I'm not trying to save my own skin... but If I go to jail or lose custody over my children over an inhailer fight... WHAT GOOD AM I TO THEM? Keeping myself in their lives as much as possible is my #1 priority.

When the police come... she will lie and say that I assaulted her... one of us gets hauled away. Who will the police believe.. the man or the woman??? Lets be real folks.. you are going to get me thrown in jail or at the very least thrown out of my house.

I am not making excuses... but the woman gets the benefit of the doubt.. .that is the hard fact here.

If I had done what my wife did, I would not be seeing my children right now. I would be in jail or at least making huge support payments for her while not being allowed to see my kids um-supervised.

I appreciate the advice and please keep the ideas coming.. I need to outsmart her at every turn here and stay one step ahead or I will find myself in big trouble.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/19/15 03:44 PM
My uncle called the police on his WW for assaulting him a couple of years ago and she was arrested. So it is not an impossibility as you suggest.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/19/15 03:54 PM
Just an observation to give more of a picture of what is going on.

Last night, my wife was a good mom.... she read with my son again, she folded laundry while I played checkers with the kids etc...She let them stay up a bit to late, so I fell asleep before they did and I don't know what happened after that... if they made it to their own beds or not.

Other times... i.e. last weekend, I noticed that she began to feel "stressed", there was somewhere we needed to be an time-wise, we just weren't going to get there in time. She started raging! she drove the car recklessly and it was like walking on eggshells with her all day. She started berating me for putting cotton balls in the wrong place or using the wrong utensil on the grill. Inappropriate anger and rage for the situation. The kids started acting up (no surprise) so she would yell at them then blame me for causing their behavior.

Others who have observed her have said that this is bi-polar disorder. My marriage counselor thinks she has narcissistic personality disorder. I think she she had borderline personality disorder. Dr Harley clearly thinks something is wrong with her. The symptoms do seem similar to what he describes as withdrawal... which could be what is going on.. but Dr Harley didn't really think that she was addicted to this guy. I don't think she is addicted (but I could be wrong)

There were signs of this kind of behavior (even on our wedding day) before the affair... but never this bad.

The problem with the medication for my kids is this: Parents have a right to determine whether their kids should take a medicine unless something becomes life threatening. My wife does not want my kids taking allergy medicine or asthma medicine. I do want them taking it. We disagree. Legally she has a right and I have a right. Because I am terrified of her and she can cause so much damage to me, she wins. I am trying to do everything I can to build and document a case for my son to take his medication.

I think it is OK to question doctors and get a second opinion etc.. I think that my wife sees me as an evil monster so anything I do, she views as bad. I am vilified for taking the kids to church for example. The more I want the kids to take their medicine, the more she will oppose it. This is not a function of her getting a second opinion... I believe that this is narcissism. She is right and will not listen to any opposing view point. It's cognitive dissonance.. which means that facts that oppose her view point are ignored... so for example, when my son is coughing.. she will say, no he is not coughing.. then he coughs again.. I say "what was that".. she is silent. It is dissonance and her mind cannot resolve it.

My car is parked in the driveway... she crashes into it. In her mind and verbally she says, " I am am a good driver" " I did not crash into my husbands car or it was not my fault"... the next weekend, like clockwork, she crashes into it again... the fact is that there is a parked car there and she completely ignores that fact.

This is someone with severe mental illness and I cannot get her to get help. There is a small chance it is withdrawal. If it were withdrawal, it would go away... but Dr Harley says that if she refuses to completely end contact then the withdrawal will not go away. I am really, really struggling with what to do about the mental illness aspect.

I really just wish I knew what was causing all this.





Posted By: NebDane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/19/15 03:59 PM
When dealing with the police in these situations, be calm, cool and collected NO MATTER WHAT she lies about. She most likely will be unhinged, screaming, yelling, and causing great havoc.
Have your VAR and ready to playback to police. Let your attorney know in advance that you will need him "on call" for such an instance.

The cops (generally, not always) will see who is the liar and who is the unstable one. (again i speak from experience here)
You are right to point out the bias, but you need to act.

Also, STOP trying to analyze her and diagnose her mental health problems. We all know she is not in her right mind at this point, stop trying to figure her out. You are making excuses for her behavior and it doesnt matter the reason, all that matters is she is acting reckless.
Why are you visiting a marriage counselor? What are you trying to accomplish?
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/19/15 04:09 PM
Originally Posted by NebDane
When dealing with the police in these situations, be calm, cool and collected NO MATTER WHAT she lies about. She most likely will be unhinged, screaming, yelling, and causing great havoc.
Have your VAR and ready to playback to police. Let your attorney know in advance that you will need him "on call" for such an instance.

The cops (generally, not always) will see who is the liar and who is the unstable one. (again i speak from experience here)
You are right to point out the bias, but you need to act.


I know... she is really scary though because she does the persona of the victim really well. The time the police came out, the female officer had to take my son from mom's arms and give him to me. She asked me if I would allow my wife to take my son for the night... I said sorry, but no. It was clear that if I did not have the law my side and the legal paperwork that the kids were to be in my custody that time, they would have sided with Mom...

I do think that when I interview the new attorney that he must be on call for me. He will know what we are up against and be willing to protect me. I also think that having this attorney who practices both criminal and family law may be what I need.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/19/15 06:47 PM
Honestly, it sounds like your last attorney was just trying to rack up billable hours.I'm glad you are getting a new one.

The VAR doesn't make you seem like an abuser. Not using it and tying their hands legally makes your lawyer sound like an idiot at best.
Posted By: LearnedTooLate Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/19/15 08:07 PM
I believe that you said you were afraid to use a Voice Activated Recorder earlier because she searches your pockets and would claim being abused.

QUIT being such a fraidy cat Wimp!!!

Yes, police typically side with the woman, but NOT if you have proof and evidence.

You, yourself are the one setting things up to go in her favor if you do not take that very simple step to protect yourself and your relationship with the kids.

LTL
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/19/15 09:49 PM
Originally Posted by LearnedTooLate
I believe that you said you were afraid to use a Voice Activated Recorder earlier because she searches your pockets and would claim being abused.

QUIT being such a fraidy cat Wimp!!!

Yes, police typically side with the woman, but NOT if you have proof and evidence.

You, yourself are the one setting things up to go in her favor if you do not take that very simple step to protect yourself and your relationship with the kids.

LTL

I use it as much as I can... I am creative about where I stash it (a book shelf or wherever), but it's not on my person all the time so I don't catch everything. The point was that wearing a camera would be even more difficult. I am looking into options for that.

I want to know what is causing this crazy behavior... the other thing that I can push for is a physiological evaluation through the courts. If I can get a diagnosis... that will really help to protect me. If this is wayward FOG or constant withdrawal symptoms... which Dr Harley describes in his book.. but really sounds like a form of mental disorder.. I just don't know if that can be diagnosed.

The thing that gets me.. is that through my 15 year relationship with her, yes there have been emotional problems... but some people are just more emotional than others... but it has been nothing like what I have experienced since the affair.. so how could this not be affair related? I am so confused as to what causes this behavior, how to deal with it, and if it will ever get better.

She has shown progress... but really slow progress.

At first she filed a restraining order.

She blocked my phone calls

She refused to even look at me or be in the same house as me.

Now, she has unblocked my calls.

We live together, talk, and do family activities.

These are signs of improvement... but because I spend more time with her, I notice the bazaar behaviors more. Blaming, extreme angry rages, regression of the children, mood swings, controlling behaviors, physical aggression, etc...
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/19/15 10:03 PM
typical,

You're just making excuses for not heeding the advice here and your son is the one who is suffering for this. You need to become much more proactive for his sake!! Here is what I would do (suggest) to start with: 1) Get your son to his dr. ASAP for an updated evaluation. Tell him/her that your w is preventing him from receiving his medication on a regular basis and have the dr. advise you AND your son what the effects are of untreated asthma in childhood. Just a brief search that I did indicated that untreated asthma can result in loss of lung function and airway modification that can affect the person later in life. I think it's important that both you and your son realize this. Listen to what his dr. says. 2) Have the dr. prepare a written treatment plan and keep this with you at all times (in addition to the VAR) in the event that you do have to call the police to intervene in case she attacks you when you are giving the prescribed med. to your son. I think it would be important for the police to know that any altercation is due to her preventing you from following a prescribed treatment plan for your son. 3) Why are you waiting to see what the school personnel come up with?? You are the parent. Meet with the school principal and the school nurse - inform them of the prescribed treatment plan. Keep them in the loop as to his condition and dr. prescribed limitations. With that information they should be able to gauge his participation in gym and other school activities and provide you with feedback. You're making this much more complicated than it should be.

Tom
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/19/15 10:24 PM
@ Tom2010

Firstly... I do have written instructions form the doctor's office. The treatment plan etc.. it pretty standardized.

Secondly... I went to the school and asked to talk to the principle. She wasn't there, but I worked my way down the line and talked to the school nurse. I talked to her at length about the asthma.. she gave me a form to get signed by the doctor which I am doing which gives the school permission to give him the rescue inhaler. She would not give him the preventive inhaler since that should be done at home. She basically said that if my wife wouldn't allow him to have it.. that is sad, but I must get her to agree to do it at home. The school wouldn't do it.

I asked her to check on him after every gym class and to document any problems he was having and send letters home and also call me.

My sons doctor isn't an alarmist by his asthma... this really comes down to my opinion that my son should take his inhalers and my wife's opinion that he should not. My only two options are to convince her or to get sole custody (which I can't really do right now) of the children so I can make the decisions for them.

I think that I am the better parent and can better make decisions for my children's well being. She thinks that she is the better parent. If you listened to the program with Dr Harley, my wife does not and can not negotiate. I am so sorry for my kids that they were born to this mother who is not looking out for their best interests. I am doing everything that I can for them.
Posted By: NebDane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/20/15 12:31 AM
Are you just journaling your fears, worries and diagnosis of your wife? or are you really going to do something?

Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/20/15 11:08 AM
Originally Posted by NebDane
Are you just journalist your fears, worries and diagnosis of your wife? or are you really going to do something?

I am doing everything I can.. keep the ideas coming. I am trying to fix a problem here by talking about the symptoms and I don't know what is causing it. Is this an affair? Is it mental illness? Is this a mid-life crisis, an Axis 2 disorder, bipolar, narcissism??? When you are dealing with crazy behavior, it just makes you go crazy too if you can't put a label on it. It makes you go crazy. I am desperately trying to get this diagnosed so I can take the right actions.

If I can plan A this woman to be in love with me... then, I think I can influence her. Love will make you do things you wouldn't normally do.. .such as go get help! That seems like the easiest way to help my kids... get their mom help! getting mom out of their lives is going to be a long expensive process that probably won't work in the end.
Posted By: NebDane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/20/15 12:49 PM
STOP trying to fix her, you can't. You are wasting your thoughts and energy on this, STOP IT. You trying to act like a doctor, "i have to label it and diagnose it", do you realize how futile and frankly arrogant that sounds. I am sure you are projecting this at home (even if you think you aren't) and it is pushing your wife away.

The only person you can control is yourself, so start controlling what you do,
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/20/15 02:00 PM
Originally Posted by NebDane
STOP trying to fix her, you can't. You are wasting your thoughts and energy on this, STOP IT. You trying to act like a doctor, "i have to label it and diagnose it", do you realize how futile and frankly arrogant that sounds. I am sure you are projecting this at home (even if you think you aren't) and it is pushing your wife away.

The only person you can control is yourself, so start controlling what you do,

Are you suggesting that I ignor her behavior? Act like it is normal and just try to live with it? Should I set the example for my kids that this is normal and they should accept it?

I thought that by diagnosing it... I could at least tell my kids "this is a mental disorder" , you don't need to grow up and behave this way, it's not normal etc... now, we are all gaslighted every day into thinking we are all crazy... we all have to walk on eggshells... how can I let my kids grow up this way?
Posted By: NebDane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/20/15 02:29 PM
You have to ignore it to some degree. The best approach is to call her out on her bad behavior in a non-judgemental, and no angry outbursts, calm, cool and collected.

I am not good with words, so maybe someone else can weigh in.

I don't recall if you have told your kids about the affair, if so, then they already know why she is behaving badly. (i have found that kids dealing with marriage crisis are way smarter and in tune, than we give them credit)
If you have to tell your kids something, simply say "that is not the proper way to act/behave."
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/20/15 02:29 PM
The other thing is... I don't know what to do with this woman at this point. Do I even want her back or not... I really don't know? I really don't know what I am up against.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/20/15 02:52 PM
I'm going to go spend a fortune on lawyers and I'm trying to protect my children... but what I am protecting them from? This is crazy.... I don't even know what I'm fighting against. I'm tired of reacting to her insanity... I want to be on the offensive... be a step ahead; why is it too much to want to know what the heck is going on? What is the problem that we are facing and trying to solve here?????? Other posters here go up against an "affair"... it's a huge problem, but Dr Harley has a plan, and you put the plan in practice. I don't even know what the enemy is that I am trying to fight... can you not see how frustrating that is????
Posted By: zibbles Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/20/15 03:11 PM
How about just calling it mental illness. You don't need the specifics. It's a distraction and a way for you to try to feel in control. You are putting all of your energy in the wrong place. Get to work on how to EXTRACT yourself and the kids from this. It can be done.
Posted By: NebDane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/20/15 03:29 PM
i understand your desire to know what is wrong so you can try to fix it, i think we all want that.
The problem is your wayward is controlled by an addiction. The addiction drives the crazy behavior, to obtain more of the 'fix" she craves. You are an extreme barrier to the "fix". The behaviors you describe indicate to me she is trying provoke you into a fight or drive you to move out. The behaviors are vary common for a wayward.

You are correct, you are in a fight. You are in a fight with someone not in their right mind. You are fighting for your family against the OM and the addiction that is in your waywards brain.

To be on the offensive, you have to build a database and get on the record with professionals (doctors, school, counselors).
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/20/15 03:53 PM
Originally Posted by zibbles
How about just calling it mental illness. You don't need the specifics. It's a distraction and a way for you to try to feel in control. You are putting all of your energy in the wrong place. Get to work on how to EXTRACT yourself and the kids from this. It can be done.

I think that the best way to get us out of this is a court ordered psychiatric evaluation. It will cost me about $7,500 or so to get done. I would hate to go through all that if this is just withdrawal... if it is withdrawal.. it should go away with time.

I do know my wife does NOT want this evaluation. I think, deep down, she knows there is something wrong... otherwise she WOULD want it because it would prove that she is a fit parent or even that I am unfit parent and she would then get primary custody of the kids.
Posted By: NebDane Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/20/15 04:07 PM
Good luck.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/20/15 04:29 PM
Originally Posted by NebDane
i understand your desire to know what is wrong so you can try to fix it, i think we all want that.
The problem is your wayward is controlled by an addiction. The addiction drives the crazy behavior, to obtain more of the 'fix" she craves. You are an extreme barrier to the "fix". The behaviors you describe indicate to me she is trying provoke you into a fight or drive you to move out. The behaviors are vary common for a wayward.

You are correct, you are in a fight. You are in a fight with someone not in their right mind. You are fighting for your family against the OM and the addiction that is in your waywards brain.

To be on the offensive, you have to build a database and get on the record with professionals (doctors, school, counselors).

I think this makes a lot of sense... I am the barrier for her to get whatever it is that she wants. Per the discussion with Dr. Harley.. she probably knows that the OM won't work out for her, but he is still a "fix" and she is extremely selfish and doesn't like to be "told" what to do. We always struggled with negotiating in our marriage because my wife became so emotional about it, but mostly, I gave her what she wanted until she got a boyfriend. It was not until then that the truely obscene behavior started. It's like a big grown up 3 year old tantrum.

Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/21/15 12:06 PM
I have a plan A question (putting everything else aside). My WW refuses to go out with me. After I got home yesterday, she did want to sit in the formal living room, have a drink, and just vent about her day. Great! so much better that she talk to me instead of the OM, so I am there to listen. My younger son gets so mad that we are talking, be gets in between us, starts hitting me... and literally says "stop talking"... it's no wonder why Dr Harley says that kids ruin marriages. Any thoughts or suggestions on getting love units through while the kids are around? My wife clearly appreciates having someone to talk to... why on earth will she not just go out with me? even just as friends. ... why do you need to be in love with someone just to be willing to go out without the kids?
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/21/15 07:21 PM
Just keep inviting her to spend time with you alone. You might consider arranging for someone to take care of the kids sometime when you know she is likely to feel talkative.

Give her your attention as best as you can even when the child is distracting.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 11/23/15 11:55 AM
So this weekend, we went to another house in the neighborhood for the kids to play. I thought that given that it was Saturday, other dad's would be there. On top of that, I try not to have my WW go anywhere alone unless I really have too. I was wrong though... only other moms were there. I could see in my WW's eyes that she was angry. I was friendly and talked to them, but my WW wanted nothing to do with me and she made one really nasty comment to me. The next day, we were talking about a children's movie and she made comments about me seeing it with another woman and her son. (Completely untrue). She acts and talks like I'm having the affair and she isn't. Has this ever happened before? How do I respond to this in plan A?
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/03/15 09:00 PM
I don't know how many heard my program with Dr Harley..

Basically, he didn't really know what was going on with my wife and the OM... was she in love with him? He wanted to figure out what is behind her behavior.. possibly that she feels that I do not care for her which is making her extremely angry and behaving erratically. The solution is for us to give each other 15 hours of undivided attention to deposit love units and make her feel cared for.

We live together, are parenting our kids, and I am supporting her.. she ABSOLUTELY REFUSES to have lunch with me, grab a coffee, go out for dinner, or anything where the two of us would be alone... what gives???? I'm not demanding that she fall in love with me instantly.. but just have a cup of coffee???? come on... who would refuse a cup of coffee with the person putting food on your table????

She has said to me: "why would I want to spend time with someone that doesn't give me all their money or other things that I ask for?" It's completely absurd the excuses she comes up with.

She says I have "treated her badly for 14 years".. I say "6 of the 14 years were before we got married... how do you marry someone that treats you badly for 6 years!!!?"... she responds "love is blind"... this sounds very similar to the "but I'm not in love with you" line which is almost always the sign of an affair.

She also get very uncomfortable if I sit next to her on the couch or something like that.

To me... these are tell-tail signs of an AFFAIR... not someone that simply feels uncared for.

BUT... I'm really struggling to find any signs that this affair is on going. I can account for most of her time, most of the people she is texting with (when I do get a glimpse of her phone, I don't see the OM man in the top 5 or so...) she is being less secretive about using her phone, although she doesn't let me really have access to it.

Are there any other explanations for this behavior other than an affair? Could this be withdrawal behavior.. even though it has likely been more than 3 months since her and the OM were together?

Another thing she is doing is feeling very entitled... she opens my mail (when I ordered new checks in my name), she picks up my cell phone and goes through it, she takes my debit card and refuses to give it back to me so she can shop online.. etc... she is very bold about crossing boundaries with me and doing things regardless of how I feel.

Any ideas on how I can figure out what is going on? Could this be just getting through withdrawal? (Dr Harley says in his book that during withdrawal there can be anger and a host of behaviors all in a very intense form which I have certainly seen, and love units don't really get through, which might explain her refusing to spend time with me, etc...)

Any thoughts?
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/03/15 09:20 PM
1. Transparency goes both ways.

2. Are you committing any love busters?

3. Are the dates proposed too casual? Perhaps you need some low intensity but formal activity to start, like a first date. Could you ask her for a new first date, hire a babysitter to come 1 hour before you pick her up and take her to a movie/concert/show, followed by dinner? Wth a promise not to talk about anything that isn't fun and interesting? (The extra hour of babysitting gives her freedom to prepare.)

Frankly, you two need some fun.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/03/15 09:23 PM
PS I know you are love busting her, it's in your previous post.

Next time she says you treated her badly, tell her you want to change so both of you can be happy. Ask her to make a list of problems, aka love busters, so you will know what to work on.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/03/15 09:25 PM
As far as your son interrupting you , could you get a babysitter for times when you are both home but want the kids out of your hair? I did that in high school for a couple who shared a love of gardening.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/03/15 09:36 PM
Originally Posted by apples123
1. Transparency goes both ways.

2. Are you committing any love busters?

3. Are the dates proposed too casual? Perhaps you need some low intensity but formal activity to start, like a first date. Could you ask her for a new first date, hire a babysitter to come 1 hour before you pick her up and take her to a movie/concert/show, followed by dinner? Wth a promise not to talk about anything that isn't fun and interesting? (The extra hour of babysitting gives her freedom to prepare.)

Frankly, you two need some fun.

#1 Transparency... yes, I am willing to show her anything if she asks, but she expects her stuff to be secret/ private. She just takes stuff without my permission though.. whats up with that?
#2 Love busters... She would say YES! but she is bringing up a love buster from perhaps 10 years ago when we had a fight as if it is happening today. If I look at the last 12 months: No angry outbursts, no disrespect, no independent behavior (except filing for divorce), only demands are to stop abusing me... the biggest love busters that she would claim is a)I am not giving her my entire paycheck and letting her run wild... .. which makes her EXTREMELY angry b) I am being somewhat insistent that she spend some time with me...

I don't know what to do though... here is how the conversation goes..
"what day this week might be good for us to have lunch together?"
"I am busy this week, I cannot meet you for lunch, I have too much to do"
"how about next week?"
"no, I am always busy"
"how about we go out for dinner and talk about xyz topic that you are interested in.. I will get a babysitter"
"you will get a baby sitter?? how inappropriate for you to be contacting younger girls to come babysit... you must be some kind of pervert"
"I have found a babysitter sho I can contact through another male friend that I have"
"why do I want to spend time with you who don't give me what I want.. give me your entire paycheck first.. then we can talk"
"I am happy to share my entire paycheck with you if we can decide together how to spend our money following the POJA... but we need to do this in the context of a husband /wife relationship. I cannot just give all my money to someone that is not acting as my wife and will not spend any time with me"
dirty look.. silence.. etc...

Any ideas on what I am doing wrong?

Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/03/15 11:08 PM
Originally Posted by apples123
PS I know you are love busting her, it's in your previous post.

Next time she says you treated her badly, tell her you want to change so both of you can be happy. Ask her to make a list of problems, aka love busters, so you will know what to work on.

I have told her she is free to give me feedback.. I give her the license to tell me anything that bothers her and I am here to listen.

What is my love buster?... I think we talked about the fact that I disrespect her for her hideous behavior and she acts like someone with a severe mental disorder... Dr Harley says that it's OK to think something disrespectful, but it's just not OK to verbalize it. So I'm not verbalizing that in any way.

She criticizes everything I do and how I do it.. she really just hates me right now... it's not really a love buster. All she really says that is causing her to not want to be with me is a) not giving her all my money and b) 14 years of mis-treatement.. which is illogical because you can't mistreat someone for that long and still be in love with them. It's got to be something else besides a love buster.

The kinder and nicer I am to her, the more she hates me. She says that she "misses" the sarcastic remarks I used to make... but if I make the slightest joke, it offends her.. as if she has NO emotional skin and is hyper sensitive to everything I do. I am nothing but kind to her. I smile, I compliment her, when she abuses me... I simply say "It appears that you might be angry about something.. I'm here for you if you want to talk". .that's all. I have not changed at all in 14 years for the negative.. I have gotten more sensitive to her feelings, I have taken more interest in the children, I do 100% of every family activity she wants me to, I offer to help in the kitchen.. I buy her things when she asks for something; I go to whatever restaurant she wants to, I com right home after work for dinner... When I go to my men's church group I give all kinds of good advice of things I do to be a good husband and father that most men haven't even thought of. I am baffled by what else I could do or not do.

This is not as if she met me fell in love.. for 14 years or so, then I suddenly developed a drinking problem, or started beating her, or stopped working... I've matured, become a better husband, a more dedicated father.. nothing has changed for the worse.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/03/15 11:28 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
#1 Transparency... yes, I am willing to show her anything if she asks, but she expects her stuff to be secret/ private. She just takes stuff without my permission though.. whats up with that?
#2 Love busters... She would say YES! but she is bringing up a love buster from perhaps 10 years ago when we had a fight as if it is happening today. If I look at the last 12 months: No angry outbursts, no disrespect, no independent behavior (except filing for divorce), only demands are to stop abusing me... the biggest love busters that she would claim is a)I am not giving her my entire paycheck and letting her run wild... .. which makes her EXTREMELY angry b) I am being somewhat insistent that she spend some time with me...

I don't know what to do though... here is how the conversation goes..
"what day this week might be good for us to have lunch together?"
"I am busy this week, I cannot meet you for lunch, I have too much to do"
"how about next week?"
"no, I am always busy"
"how about we go out for dinner and talk about xyz topic that you are interested in.. I will get a babysitter"
"you will get a baby sitter?? how inappropriate for you to be contacting younger girls to come babysit... you must be some kind of pervert"
"I have found a babysitter sho I can contact through another male friend that I have"
"why do I want to spend time with you who don't give me what I want.. give me your entire paycheck first.. then we can talk"
"I am happy to share my entire paycheck with you if we can decide together how to spend our money following the POJA... but we need to do this in the context of a husband /wife relationship. I cannot just give all my money to someone that is not acting as my wife and will not spend any time with me"


Too pushy as though she has to provide a reason for saying no, and the jab at her lack of enthusiasm is pure folly.

Try:

"I'm going to (insert activity she adores); want to come?"

Then when she says no, you accept it cheerfully in a sexily confident way and you keep up a gentle, flirtyness as though you respect her decision - but can't help asking and hoping for a yes.

You DON'T punish or make her feel she owes you a pity date. What are you going to get from that?

The point is in the asking, the offer. The point is not the getting; there's certainly no point in being demanding. That's your lovebuster right there.

Lovebusters tend to be born of desperation.

Originally Posted by typicalman
"It appears that you might be angry about something.. I'm here for you if you want to talk". .

Poor idea to tell a non wayward how they are feeling,(DJ) instead of asking. With a wayward, you're inviting outright contempt.

Originally Posted by typicalman
The kinder and nicer I am to her, the more she hates me.


That is to be expected with a wayward. That's like saying snow is cold. You deal with it if you have chosen Plan A. You respect her feelings just as you would if she were not crazy selfish and cruel. You show her the possibilities while accepting her addiction blinds her to them. Utterly. While hacking at the A.

Don't reason and lecture someone without benefit of sense. It backfires only on you.

Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/03/15 11:33 PM
You realize none of that was actually asking her on a date , right?
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/03/15 11:35 PM
[spoiler][/spoiler]Any time you tell someone their feelings are not real you are being disrespectful.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/03/15 11:59 PM
Originally Posted by apples123
[spoiler][/spoiler]Any time you tell someone their feelings are not real you are being disrespectful.
my goal is to show her empathy not disrespect and not fight back. What should I say?
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 12:19 AM
Indie- if you read previous posts, he has been extremely disrespectful and has no idea.

TM - you need to review Dr. Harley's articles on disrespectful judgements. Also Markos has several posts, including one just a day or so ago in MB101. You have been told repeatedly, You Are not supposed to psychoanalyze your spouse , it is inherently disrespectful. You are assuming she is irrational.

You also need to plan and ASK for a date. Do not assume, which is what your lunch question did.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 12:22 AM
Personally, turning you down for lunch was completely rational. You arent fun to be around and you cant be troubled to ask her for a dat. If you had asked that way for the first date, you would never have married.

It helps if you dont presume she will conform to MB priciples until you change your behavior and follow the principles.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 01:10 AM
Originally Posted by apples123
Personally, turning you down for lunch was completely rational. You arent fun to be around and you cant be troubled to ask her for a dat. If you had asked that way for the first date, you would never have married.

It helps if you dont presume she will conform to MB priciples until you change your behavior and follow the principles.

Ok, I agree. I will change the way I have been going about it. The part that frustrates me is that she expects me to give her money and do everything else she asks me to, but she is putting nothing into to marriage... I feel like such a fool giving into her extreme selfishness. I will try the less demanding approach and see what happens. Perhaps, I will make a goal to ask her to do something 3 to 5 times a week with no demand or expectation and see what happens.


I don't know why the disrespect thing keeps coming up about the psycho analysis. Dr Harley has addressed this many times. It is OK to have thoughts... and thinking psychotic behavior is psychotic or thinking having an affair is immoral is fine and justified. He says that voicing it serves no useful purpose for the goal of saving a marriage. He has made that point on his radio program multiple times.

I do think I am showing disrespect in other ways though... I am trying to avoid it, but it's hard to thread the needle. For example, telling her to stop abusing the kids is disrespectful... but I am trying to protect them. Limiting the amount of money she has access to is also disrespectful, but she got an apartment on the other side of the country, filled it with furniture, and spent the entire summer sitting on the beach while I worked full time and took care of the kids. If I did not limit her access to our funds, we would be bankrupt. Plan A is really hard when being taken advantage of this way and the WW's behavior is so destructive. I appreciate the suggestion on how to avoid the love busters while trying to avoid being walked all over....
Posted By: Prisca Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 01:44 AM
Quote
I don't know why the disrespect thing keeps coming up about the psycho analysis. Dr Harley has addressed this many times. It is OK to have thoughts... and thinking psychotic behavior is psychotic or thinking having an affair is immoral is fine and justified. He says that voicing it serves no useful purpose for the goal of saving a marriage. He has made that point on his radio program multiple times.
As long as you psychoanalyze your wife, your marriage will not get better.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 01:48 AM
Protect yourself and your kids. That is not disrespectful.

Study the articles. Listen to your VAR. Identify your DJs. Then eliminate them. Your VAR is a powerful tool for this.p
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 01:52 AM
Dr Harley has clearly stated that even he an experienced clinical psychologist, should not pyschoanalyze his spouse. He has certainly not given any of us leave , do so.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 02:05 AM
Originally Posted by apples123
Dr Harley has clearly stated that even he an experienced clinical psychologist, should not pyschoanalyze his spouse. He has certainly not given any of us leave , do so.
I believe he said that he would not give his own spouse a diagnosis... but he did not say anything about having his own opinions. If your spouse was an alcoholic or drug addict would you ignore that? If you spouse is showing extreme symptoms of illness what do you do if you care about them? What if my wife had a brain tumor...and that was causing all this? Again, I have not voiced any of thus to her...if anything, the idea of her having possible mental illness has made me more compassionate and tolerant towards her. It has helped me a lot avoiding love busters... in the past, I might have taken her behavior personally and gotten angry. I have all but eliminated ALL anger... I might get frustrated with her... but there is no anger what so ever.

I have written Dr Harley about this topic... I will let you know how he responds.

Posted By: Prisca Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 02:17 AM
Quote
It has helped me a lot avoiding love busters.
No, it hasn't.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 02:21 AM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
It has helped me a lot avoiding love busters.
g
No, it hasn't.

If I thought my wife was in her right mind being this evil and abusive... I would divorce her as fast as possible and get away.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 02:26 AM
Would you like to do Marriage Builders?
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 02:29 AM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
It has helped me a lot avoiding love busters.
g
No, it hasn't.

If I thought my wife was in her right mind being this evil and abusive... I would divorce her as fast as possible and get away.

Read: she must be crazy if she doesn't fall in line with whatever i want.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 02:30 AM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Would you like to do Marriage Builders?
YES! I want to woman back that I married and the kind of marriage according to the marriage builders principles... meeting needs, POJA, of course that is what I want.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 02:32 AM
But you are not following the plan. Instead, you argue and justify your disrespectful judgements.

No part of Marriage Builders involves psychoanalyzing your spouse. No part of Marriage Builders allows you to speak about your spouse the way you do here. You are not following the plan.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 02:38 AM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by apples123
Dr Harley has clearly stated that even he an experienced clinical psychologist, should not pyschoanalyze his spouse. He has certainly not given any of us leave , do so.
I believe he said that he would not give his own spouse a diagnosis... but he did not say anything about having his own opinions. If your spouse was an alcoholic or drug addict would you ignore that? If you spouse is showing extreme symptoms of illness what do you do if you care about them? What if my wife had a brain tumor...and that was causing all this? Again, I have not voiced any of thus to her...if anything, the idea of her having possible mental illness has made me more compassionate and tolerant towards her. It has helped me a lot avoiding love busters... in the past, I might have taken her behavior personally and gotten angry. I have all but eliminated ALL anger... I might get frustrated with her... but there is no anger what so ever.

I have written Dr Harley about this topic... I will let you know how he responds.

You CONSTANTLY talk about how crazy you can think she is.
She knows exactly what you think of her. There is no way you can talk about this all the time and not behave accordingly.

You have also said that you have taken her to multiple shrinks who can only diagnose her with personality disorders, thing is, if you know the DSM-V, EVERYONE can be diagnosed with personality disorders. Basically anyone doing something other than what the observer wants has a personality disorder. There is also NO imaging or histologic evidence of personality disorders, while all other categories of diagnoses have evidence outside the mind of the practioner.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 02:45 AM
From Markos post in MB101

By the way, here is a list of ways I've compiled over the past few years that I or other people I've heard about have been disrespectful to their spouse.

sarcasm
criticism
judgment: stating that their perspective is wrong
"should"
lecturing/attempting to educate
gestures, facial expressions, body language
expressing surprise or shock at an opinion or feeling or belief
saying that something is "obvious" (in other words, you "should" realize this or "should" know it)
disrespecting your spouse's feelings instead of accepting the fact that they do feel that way

guilting, shaming
hyperbolizing
always/never
exaggerated words
scolding
name-calling, labelling
saying or doing something you know your spouse identifies as disrespectful

comparisons: if I had done such a horrible thing as you, I'd be doing more to make up for it

defensiveness

minimizing -- "just" -- you just say that because ... [Translation: I don't have to address your complaint.]
psychoanalyzing your spouse
explaining away your spouse's feelings or complaints

attributing motivations
blaming, fault-finding
expecting them to read your mind


I statements may help, but are not an excuse for a disrespectful judgment:
I feel like (DJ)
I feel unloved.
I feel like you don't love me.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 02:46 AM
Originally Posted by apples123
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by apples123
Dr Harley has clearly stated that even he an experienced clinical psychologist, should not pyschoanalyze his spouse. He has certainly not given any of us leave , do so.
I believe he said that he would not give his own spouse a diagnosis... but he did not say anything about having his own opinions. If your spouse was an alcoholic or drug addict would you ignore that? If you spouse is showing extreme symptoms of illness what do you do if you care about them? What if my wife had a brain tumor...and that was causing all this? Again, I have not voiced any of thus to her...if anything, the idea of her having possible mental illness has made me more compassionate and tolerant towards her. It has helped me a lot avoiding love busters... in the past, I might have taken her behavior personally and gotten angry. I have all but eliminated ALL anger... I might get frustrated with her... but there is no anger what so ever.

I have written Dr Harley about this topic... I will let you know how he responds.

You CONSTANTLY talk about how crazy you can think she is.
She knows exactly what you think of her. There is no way you can talk about this all the time and not behave accordingly.

You have also said that you have taken her to multiple shrinks who can only diagnose her with personality disorders, thing is, if you know the DSM-V, EVERYONE can be diagnosed with personality disorders. Basically anyone doing something other than what the observer wants has a personality disorder. There is also NO imaging or histologic evidence of personality disorders, while all other categories of diagnoses have evidence outside the mind of the practioner.

My understanding is that difference in the brain have been detected on brain scans for BPD. Also, the professionals I have talked to have told me there is a standard battery of tests that they use. I am possibly going to spend a small fortune on these tests if I follow through with what the court has ordered. I really want to make sure the testing is worth it before I pay for it.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 02:52 AM
prior to the affair, what were her complaints? Address those.

This is a woman who feels trapped. If you want the marriage to survive, you have to help her escape WITH you.

If you don't want to do the work, then end the marriage. None of us will blame you. You have every right to divorce.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 02:57 AM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by apples123
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by apples123
Dr Harley has clearly stated that even he an experienced clinical psychologist, should not pyschoanalyze his spouse. He has certainly not given any of us leave , do so.
I believe he said that he would not give his own spouse a diagnosis... but he did not say anything about having his own opinions. If your spouse was an alcoholic or drug addict would you ignore that? If you spouse is showing extreme symptoms of illness what do you do if you care about them? What if my wife had a brain tumor...and that was causing all this? Again, I have not voiced any of thus to her...if anything, the idea of her having possible mental illness has made me more compassionate and tolerant towards her. It has helped me a lot avoiding love busters... in the past, I might have taken her behavior personally and gotten angry. I have all but eliminated ALL anger... I might get frustrated with her... but there is no anger what so ever.

I have written Dr Harley about this topic... I will let you know how he responds.

I have only ever found poster presentations, no actual articles in peer-reviewed journals. Again, if everyone can be diagnosed, it isnt a disease.

You CONSTANTLY talk about how crazy you can think she is.
She knows exactly what you think of her. There is no way you can talk about this all the time and not behave accordingly.

You have also said that you have taken her to multiple shrinks who can only diagnose her with personality disorders, thing is, if you know the DSM-V, EVERYONE can be diagnosed with personality disorders. Basically anyone doing something other than what the observer wants has a personality disorder. There is also NO imaging or histologic evidence of personality disorders, while all other categories of diagnoses have evidence outside the mind of the practioner.

My understanding is that difference in the brain have been detected on brain scans for BPD. Also, the professionals I have talked to have told me there is a standard battery of tests that they use. I am possibly going to spend a small fortune on these tests if I follow through with what the court has ordered. I really want to make sure the testing is worth it before I pay for it.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 02:59 AM
I have found a couple of meeting posters, basically a drop in the bucket. Again, if everyone can be diagnosed, it isnt a disease.
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 04:24 AM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Any thoughts?

Yes, I have a thought:

Quote
She says I have "treated her badly for 14 years".. I say "6 of the 14 years were before we got married... how do you marry someone that treats you badly for 6 years!!!?"... she responds "love is blind"...

In the Marriage Builders plan, you don't debate your wife like this. Whether she has a personality disorder or not, you don't do this. If you debate your wife, you will lose your marriage.

If you're here to learn how to use this program, we can help you save your marriage, but if you are here to give us a play by play of the debates you have with her, this is never going to work and you might as well see a divorce attorney and stop seeing or talking to her to spare yourself the trauma.
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 05:25 AM
Originally Posted by typicalman
We live together, are parenting our kids, and I am supporting her.. she ABSOLUTELY REFUSES to have lunch with me, grab a coffee, go out for dinner, or anything where the two of us would be alone... what gives???? I'm not demanding that she fall in love with me instantly.. but just have a cup of coffee???? come on... who would refuse a cup of coffee with the person putting food on your table????

...

She also get very uncomfortable if I sit next to her on the couch or something like that.

My wife was like that for years.

Quote
Are there any other explanations for this behavior other than an affair?

Yes. Dr. Harley has a whole page about it.
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 05:27 AM
Originally Posted by typicalman
I don't know what to do though...

I do. My wife responded like that to invitations to spend time together for a long, long time. I was able to turn this around in my marriage.
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 05:29 AM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by apples123
[spoiler][/spoiler]Any time you tell someone their feelings are not real you are being disrespectful.
my goal is to show her empathy not disrespect and not fight back. What should I say?

You should say "okay" to your wife. Then you should mention one reason why she is correct in what she is saying. For example, "That would bother me, too."
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 05:32 AM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by apples123
Personally, turning you down for lunch was completely rational. You arent fun to be around and you cant be troubled to ask her for a dat. If you had asked that way for the first date, you would never have married.

It helps if you dont presume she will conform to MB priciples until you change your behavior and follow the principles.

Ok, I agree. I will change the way I have been going about it. The part that frustrates me is that she expects me to give her money and do everything else she asks me to, but she is putting nothing into to marriage... I feel like such a fool giving into her extreme selfishness. I will try the less demanding approach and see what happens. Perhaps, I will make a goal to ask her to do something 3 to 5 times a week with no demand or expectation and see what happens.


I don't know why the disrespect thing keeps coming up about the psycho analysis. Dr Harley has addressed this many times. It is OK to have thoughts... and thinking psychotic behavior is psychotic or thinking having an affair is immoral is fine and justified. He says that voicing it serves no useful purpose for the goal of saving a marriage. He has made that point on his radio program multiple times.

I do think I am showing disrespect in other ways though... I am trying to avoid it, but it's hard to thread the needle. For example, telling her to stop abusing the kids is disrespectful... but I am trying to protect them. Limiting the amount of money she has access to is also disrespectful, but she got an apartment on the other side of the country, filled it with furniture, and spent the entire summer sitting on the beach while I worked full time and took care of the kids. If I did not limit her access to our funds, we would be bankrupt. Plan A is really hard when being taken advantage of this way and the WW's behavior is so destructive. I appreciate the suggestion on how to avoid the love busters while trying to avoid being walked all over....

In order to learn how to avoid being walked all over, you need to learn to talk respectfully about the problems she causes you, even when you are talking to other people. When you can do that, you will increase your ability to think creatively about new ways to solve these problems that she will like, without making sacrifices on your part.

You need to learn how to express her viewpoint, respectfully.

Ask Dr. Harley if he agrees with this recommendation.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 07:08 AM
My wife finally had a sit down talk with me. She asked why I wanted to reconcile with her. I told her that I cared about her and wanted to be with her for the long term. She said that she wants me to just get the divorce. She said that she just can't be a good wife to me.

I said fine... but have you thought this through? She said no.. she doesn't really have a plan. I said that we probably needed to get moved out if the house ASAP because we need to end all the pain an suffering I am enduring and I am concerned about my health and the kids. I also think I want full custody of the kids but she was willing only to split custody.

In a way, I feel a huge weight lifted off my shoulders...in a way, I am devistated... but in another way, I think it will be good for her to know what divorce is going to be like.

I just don't know what to do now. Should I try to talk her out of it? I really want the pain and suffering to end so my emotions are telling me to get divorced ASAP to end this.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 07:15 AM
We agreed to talk again tomorrow. I really don't know what to do... I either want to talk her out of this or get her separated from me to end the pain. She kept saying that I filed for divorce on her... and I said no, this is your decision to not work on the marriage. Any thoughts? What do I do?

She wants divorce, but for me to be there for her when she needs help with the kids, she wants financial support from me, and she still wants to do things together. I said no...you don't get any of that stuff.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 07:26 AM
What do you want?

If to save the marriage, standrd MB reply :" I willing to build a romantic marriage that makes us both happy. Do you want to join me in building a marriage like that?"
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 10:24 AM
That is basically what I said. I asked if the truth was that she just didn't want to be in a good marriage like that. She basically said no... I just can't be a good wife to you.

I just don't know what is going on in her head...I said it is clear that you don't love me.. but, I still don't know what your goal is.. is the OM going to move here to be with you? No, are you going to move their? No. How are you going to support yourself? Same as I do now... she makes $100/week. She asked, will you give me some money to buy food for the kids when they are with me? I said yes. I said, you want a divorce.. I don't want one, but I'll give it to you. If you want a divorce, I can no longer care for you. She said that she thought would always care for eachother. I said no. I said that you really need to go find a place to live... do you have a plan for that? No.

I really don't know what to do. She really seems intent on being divorced, but she seems to have no plan.

What do I want? It is to build a great marriage with her or someone else if not her. I want my kids to have the gift of two parents. I also don't know if I can continue to take the pain and suffering she is putting me through.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 10:42 AM
At this point...I have a few options that I am thinking of:
1. I can say.. I won't divorce you. If you want to divorce me, I can't stop you, but I care for you and want to build a good marriage, so I won't do it.
2. OK, I will divorce. But I need to separate from you for my health and well being. I need you to move somewhere as soon as possible. How can we make that happen?
3. OK, I will divorce. .. but I want to work on a relationship with you.

She said that the reason she wants to divorce is because I listen to Dr Harley's books and not her. I filed divorce on her. Basically, I did not believe her that she did not have an affair. I listened to the marriage councilor and the children's councilor and not her.

I can try to convince her how much I care and to put off the divorce decision... or I can take this as a gift to end my pain and suffering with her.. what do I do?

The other thing is... all of a sudden, if we get divorced, she says that she wants to stop abusing me and get along for the kids. The fact that she is willing to stop abusing me makes me want to stay with her.



Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 11:01 AM
Another thing we talked about was child custody. I told her that I may want full custody... I don't know. She said that she wants the kids during the week and me to have them on the weekend. I said, are you serious? Do you know what that is like? She said yes, I do it now. I said no, you haven't worked full time and taken care of the kids. I have and I know what it is like, you don't. ..

Again.. she doesn't seem to have thought this through. She doesn't have enough income now to even sign a lease. It has been 7 months now since I filed for divorce and she has made no plans for being divorced. Dr Harley says that women usually have a plan... but she does not. I am just struggling a little with finalizing this divorce that she hasn't thought through... maybe we need to go through with it for her to feel the reality of it..as Dr Harley suggested.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 11:24 AM
Originally Posted by apples123
prior to the affair, what were her complaints? Address those.

This is a woman who feels trapped. If you want the marriage to survive, you have to help her escape WITH you.

If you don't want to do the work, then end the marriage. None of us will blame you. You have every right to divorce.

Her complaints are
angry outbursts... I eliminated them completely a year ago, she still has them.
Family commitment... I spend 30+hours a week on family stuff and come home for dinner every night.
Lack of going out... I take her out a couple times a week at least..just not alone, she refuses.
Lack of conversation... I ask her about her day and the problems she is facing daily.
She wants my entire paycheck... I did give it to her for a month, but she did not want the responsibility nor to pay bills together.
She wanted more vacations... I do that for her.
She wants control of everything going on inside the house and gets extremely upset if I don't do exactly what she says... that is a hard one.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 01:06 PM
What fun outing could you have that would be low intensity? Bumper Cars, kite flying,

Would she be more willing if you promise there will be NO relationship talk through b the whole date?
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 01:14 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
That is basically what I said. I asked if the truth was that she just didn't want to be in a good marriage like that. She basically said no... I just can't be a good wife to you.

I just don't know what is going on in her head...I said it is clear that you don't love me.. (disrespectful)


but, I still don't know what your goal is.. is the OM going to move here to be with you? No, are you going to move their? No. How are you going to support yourself? (rude- attempting to straighten your spouse out)
)

Same as I do now... she makes $100/week. She asked, will you give me some money to buy food for the kids when they are with me? I said yes. I said, you want a divorce..


I don't want one, but I'll give it to you. If you want a divorce, I can no longer care for you. She said that she thought would always care for eachother. I said no. I said that you really need to go find a place to live... do you have a plan for that? No.(so you are kicking her out, or threatening to, how does that help plan A)l

I really don't know what to do. She really seems intent on being divorced, but arshe seems to have no plan.

What do I want? It is to build a great marriage with her or someone else if not her. ( do you have your eye on someone already?)

I want my kids to have the gift of two parents. I also don't know if I can continue to take the pain and suffering she is putting me through.

If you can't take it, end the marriage. But please stop pretending you are in Plan A.

You seem to want her lead the recovery but that is not going to happen.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 01:36 PM
Some articles...
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5043b_qa.html
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5067b_qa.html
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5067d_qa.html
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5067f_qa.html
Posted By: Prisca Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 02:07 PM
Quote
She kept saying that I filed for divorce on her... and I said no, this is your decision to not work on the marriage. Any thoughts? What do I do?
Quit debating her. It's disrespectful.

Try Plan A.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 02:19 PM
Originally Posted by apples123
Originally Posted by typicalman
That is basically what I said. I asked if the truth was that she just didn't want to be in a good marriage like that. She basically said no... I just can't be a good wife to you.

I just don't know what is going on in her head...I said it is clear that you don't love me.. (disrespectful)


but, I still don't know what your goal is.. is the OM going to move here to be with you? No, are you going to move their? No. How are you going to support yourself? (rude- attempting to straighten your spouse out)
)

Same as I do now... she makes $100/week. She asked, will you give me some money to buy food for the kids when they are with me? I said yes. I said, you want a divorce..


I don't want one, but I'll give it to you. If you want a divorce, I can no longer care for you. She said that she thought would always care for eachother. I said no. I said that you really need to go find a place to live... do you have a plan for that? No.(so you are kicking her out, or threatening to, how does that help plan A)l

I really don't know what to do. She really seems intent on being divorced, but arshe seems to have no plan.

What do I want? It is to build a great marriage with her or someone else if not her. ( do you have your eye on someone already?)

I want my kids to have the gift of two parents. I also don't know if I can continue to take the pain and suffering she is putting me through.

If you can't take it, end the marriage. But please stop pretending you are in Plan A.

You seem to want her lead the recovery but that is not going to happen.


Firstly, straitening her out is not my intent... I really just want to get some information from her so I can make a decision on what to do.

I am completely confused as to what I should do... am I in plan A or in plan B????

plan B means she needs to move out, plan A means I take care of her best I can and meet her needs.

She wants a divorce, but still want me to meet needs for financial support & family commitment. If I meet her needs and she has the freedom she wants.. she has the best of both worlds... what incentive would she ever have to work on our marriage?

I am really confused if I should follow plan A or plan B... I think Dr Harley recommended "plan B" she needs to feel the full effects of the divorce.. which she clearly does not seem prepared for. I wanted her to understand that in the long run.. if we are divorced.. I can't be doing all these family activities together because no other potential woman should tolerate that.

Any idea what I should do? Plan A or plan B? I feel like if I continue with a divorce and plan A at the same time.. I am really doing a mixture of plan A and plan B. Should I talk her into staying in the house as long as possible? I feel that that would take a toll on my health and be confusing for the children.

I did try to lecture her on what divorce means.. I know I shouldn't do that.. .it is disrespectful, but my only other alternative is to let he feel the effects of the divorce for herself which is probably what I need to do. I want to be kind and nice to her through the divorce process, but I don't want to give away the store either...

Should I withdraw my petition for divorce... then go into plan A and simply let her file divorce on me if she wants to? She seems to be trying to for me to divorce her guilt free because it is my filing.

I've been suffering through this for a year.. and suffering with her not meeting any of my needs for several years... how long do I continue to try to save this before searching for happiness somewhere else? Maybe 1 more year? Dr Harley seems to recommend 2 years.

If I can talk to my wife tonight... what should I say? She caught me this morning, brought me a cup of coffee and was really sweet to me and said I've been thinking and I want to have a really nice civil divorce with you where we are not fighting. She has not seemed so happy and sweet to me in a long time.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 02:23 PM
What do you think my best option is to give me and my kids the best shot at a healthy family and healthy example of a marriage? Should I try to win my wife over who never seemed to buy into the Marriage builders principles and convince her to do it? Is is possible to find someone else at my age with two kids already who would be willing to follow the marriage builders program? Where do you find such women? do they exist?
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 02:32 PM

This first article really hits home really hard!!! My wife says that I am too controlling, but I don't feel that I am. I feel that I just ask her to take my feelings into account and she really doesn't like it if I say NO. When I said she could not have this boyfriend, she turned off to our marriage like a "light switch"...

Also, she had been in love with me for at least 10-12 years of our 14 years together... as this article points out, if I was really abusive to her, she would not have hung on that long because my abuse would have destroyed her love. I think that she felt that she was losing control after we moved and she began the intense "independent behavior"

I would really like to share some of this with her but I know I can't.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 02:42 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman

This first article really hits home really hard!!! My wife says that I am too controlling, but I don't feel that I am. I feel that I just ask her to take my feelings into account and she really doesn't like it if I say NO. When I said she could not have this boyfriend, she turned off to our marriage like a "light switch"...

Also, she had been in love with me for at least 10-12 years of our 14 years together... as this article points out, if I was really abusive to her, she would not have hung on that long because my abuse would have destroyed her love. I think that she felt that she was losing control after we moved and she began the intense "independent behavior"

I would really like to share some of this with her but I know I can't.


The second article really describes alot of our fights... she would be abusive to me and I would be abusive back... I didn't think it was abuse at the time.. just fighting fire with fire; but I eliminated my side of the fight more than a year ago (exactly as the article points out) but she kept hers side up. At times, I still made disrespectful judgements...although I tired not to, but the anger part I found VERY easy to control. I can feel the tensions building and I sooth myself or take a time out very easily... this has become instinctual for me. She often says that I am yelling at her when I am not yelling at all, just voicing an opinion different from hers or setting a boundary for being willing to tolerate abuse. For example, she might be abusing me... I start to feel threatened.. so I just walk away. She says that because I walked away, I lost my temper.. which I did not, I just needed a time out to self sooth.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 02:58 PM
"She may want to make decisions that do not take your
feelings into account, and you won't let her."

This exactly what has happened which has caused my wife to want divorce now. She wanted to take my full paycheck and spend it without regards for how I felt. I said no! You can only have access to my full paycheck if we follow POJA... she wanted noting of that.

She wanted a new cable package... I told her specifically that I did not want it, we could not afford it, and I thought the children were watching too much TV. I said, I am willing to sit down with you, negotiate, and find something we can both be happy with. She said No, and she just went and ordered it behind by back. I said NO and I cancelled it.

She also wanted to have a boyfriend, and I said NO! I exposed the affair!

You can see.. this is exactly what is happening!!!!

This is what the article says to do about it..
"Let her do whatever she wants (to prevent her from doing so would be a Love Buster), but also let her know how much it is hurting you."

But, I am confused.. Dr Harley said not to give away the store... and letting her have an affair would seem to be so enabling and uncaring.. what do I do?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 03:56 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Firstly, straitening her out is not my intent... I really just want to get some information from her so I can make a decision on what to do. time.


Not intenntional doesn't remove the love buster. If you accidentally elbow her in the face, it will still hurt her.

Don't tell, suggest or demand information. Just stop it.

While you are lovebusting you are in Plan crash and burn. Displaying an abusive marriage when you need to 'get something'

When actually you won't

Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 04:16 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by typicalman
Firstly, straitening her out is not my intent... I really just want to get some information from her so I can make a decision on what to do. time.


Not intenntional doesn't remove the love buster. If you accidentally elbow her in the face, it will still hurt her.

Don't tell, suggest or demand information. Just stop it.

While you are lovebusting you are in Plan crash and burn. Displaying an abusive marriage when you need to 'get something'

When actually you won't

how can I ask her questions without it being a demand? she has a choice to answer or not answer... I am not going to punish her for not answering... but I can understand how asking certain questions can be interpreted as disrespect. I have been trying to simply ask her what would make her happy what is making her unhappy? I am not getting much of an answer. I am trying to show that I care about what would make her happy.. but I'm not getting that information. How do you think I could ask her in a way that would get a better response?


I would like to ask her why she has been so kind to me today... her happiness is important to me, so if something has made her happy, I want to know what it is. Maybe she has felt "controlled".. and by agree to get divorced she now feels less "controlled".. so that may be a clue as to what is bothering her... it could then lead to a discussion about things we could do that would make her more happy. My goal is to show that I am willing to be the husband that tries to make her happy and I care about her... but not create a love buster by asking questions. Any suggestion?
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 04:42 PM
Make a plan and ask her on a fun date. Say you want to show her you can be a fun and romantic husband for her. Promise no relationship talk.

Please understand that I say this kindly - you are talking at her too much. Show some action. Does she like flowers and gifts? She has no money; would having a little cash in her pocket (like $10-20) help her feel better? Special cup cake from her favorite local bakery? Are there honest compliments she might enjoy, such as about how she looks or keeps the house that you can give her?

I'm not saying you can buy your wife but she sounds like a woman who would enjoy gifts and compliments. If you want the marriage to work, you should fervently court her.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 04:45 PM
A lot of relationship talk is exhausting and demoralizing. Go have fun and table the relationship talk.

Get out of the house. Go to a tree lighting or the rockettes or something.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 05:11 PM
Originally Posted by apples123
Make a plan and ask her on a fun date. Say you want to show her you can be a fun and romantic husband for her. Promise no relationship talk.

Please understand that I say this kindly - you are talking at her too much. Show some action. Does she like flowers and gifts? She has no money; would having a little cash in her pocket (like $10-20) help her feel better? Special cup cake from her favorite local bakery? Are there honest compliments she might enjoy, such as about how she looks or keeps the house that you can give her?

I'm not saying you can buy your wife but she sounds like a woman who would enjoy gifts and compliments. If you want the marriage to work, you should fervently court her.

I have been giving her $1,500/ month just to buy groceries and whatever she wants. Anytime she asks me for something.. clothes or whatever, I usually give it to her. If she runs out of money, I usually hem & haw...but I end up giving it to her.

I have been thinking of asking her again on a date... but we are planning on a divorce so how to I ask her on a date... I was thinking of just saying.. lets work on our relationship / friendship post divorce and just go do something together for fun. We really need to figure out our divorce through so I don't know how to avoid relationship talk.. because that is what it is.. I guess the other thing I could do is to procrastinate the divorce talk and just try to do something fun. I am concerned that just going on a data won't change anything and I need to do something more to prove to her that I care about her happiness...
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 05:16 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by typicalman
Any thoughts?

Yes, I have a thought:

Quote
She says I have "treated her badly for 14 years".. I say "6 of the 14 years were before we got married... how do you marry someone that treats you badly for 6 years!!!?"... she responds "love is blind"...

In the Marriage Builders plan, you don't debate your wife like this. Whether she has a personality disorder or not, you don't do this. If you debate your wife, you will lose your marriage.

If you're here to learn how to use this program, we can help you save your marriage, but if you are here to give us a play by play of the debates you have with her, this is never going to work and you might as well see a divorce attorney and stop seeing or talking to her to spare yourself the trauma.

typicalman, are you reading my posts?

Can you stop debating your wife since that is part of following the plan here?
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 05:19 PM
tm, I stayed up late last night reading all of your posts and making several posts to you. It doesn't look like you've read a single one of them.

We can help you follow this plan to save your marriage and it will work if you follow it. If you simply want to tell your story and talk more than listen, your marriage is only going to go downhill.

When most of us showed up, we could say "My best thinking ruined my marriage." Can't you say that at this point, too? Why don't you dedicate yourself to learning Dr. Harley's plan, since he knows how to save marriages just like yours?

I was in a marriage just like yours, tm and was able to turn it around by following the Marriage Builders program. We can point out the things you are missing in the program, but it does not look like you are listening.

If you are not interested in listening, tm, I will go spend my time with somebody else who can listen and be helped.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 05:28 PM
You don't want the answer, so don't ask the question. She wants OM for intimate needs and you for FS. She's told you this, so stop asking. She is not interested in your agenda but you are constantly annoying her with it and not interested in her true feelings (disinterest) on the topic.

Which is a DJ, and foolish of you, however understandable.

Originally Posted by typicalman
... it could then lead to a discussion about things we could do that would make her more happy. My goal is to show that I am willing to be the husband that tries to make her happy and I care about her... but not create a love buster by asking questions. Any suggestion?


Aye. Less talk more action.

You show a basic misconception of the mind set which affects anyone who is in an active affair. Utterly selfish, very disinterested in helping you figure anything out. They see you as someone with a total lack of claim to their heart and pushiness will be seen as stalking.

Your only shot is to exclude all love busters, destroy the affair causing the disinterest/callousness, slowly make penny worth deposits in a slow and steady way - while she scowls on. Not minding. Not pushing. No expectations.

Originally Posted by typicalman
I would like to ask her why she has been so kind to me today... her happiness is important to me, so if something has made her happy, I want to know what it is. Maybe she has felt "controlled".. and by agree to get divorced she now feels less "controlled".. so that may be a clue as to what is bothering her..


All waywards use the Jekyll and Hyde technique to keep cake eating going. All wayward women feel 'controlled' though it is a patently ridiculous claim when they are having an affair.

If you want to understand her, read other people's threads where you will see exact words/behaviour repeated when affair is active. Former personality returns later.

Don't talk about your perspective to her, and for goodness sake, don't swallow or believe hers.

Just be a nice guy. Patient, charming, unhurried, casual. Let exposure and others be her consequence - not you.

You would make so many more deposits if you brought home a book of love poetry, her favourite take out, or made her a cup of tea, or fetched her a blanket. You won't see an immediate response but these deposits stack up like pebbles underwater. Your 'my agenda' talks let out all the water. Massive withdrawals and you have to start again from a minus number.

It is a big ask to meet needs with no expectations and a cheerful demeanour, and no one has to attempt the labours of Hercules known as plan A if they don't want to.

But you don't need her agreement to make deposits. They are unconscious.




Posted By: indiegirl Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 05:31 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
I have been giving her $1,500/ month just to buy groceries and whatever she wants. Anytime she asks me for something.. clothes or whatever, I usually give it to her. If she runs out of money, I usually hem & haw...but I end up giving it to her.
her happiness...


In other words, no I'm not asking her on dates, I'm chickening out and doling out cash.

She will say no and that will be ok. You will be charmingly confident anyway.

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 05:34 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
procrastinate the divorce talk and just try to do something fun. I am concerned that just going on a data won't change anything and I need to do something more to prove to her that I care about her happiness...


She's not actually going to say yes anyway - so no a date won't change anything!. The point is to ask. To show interest. To make small and steady deposits with small talk and gestures.

This is a marathon not a sprint.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 06:16 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by apples123
Make a plan and ask her on a fun date. Say you want to show her you can be a fun and romantic husband for her. Promise no relationship talk.

Please understand that I say this kindly - you are talking at her too much. Show some action. Does she like flowers and gifts? She has no money; would having a little cash in her pocket (like $10-20) help her feel better? Special cup cake from her favorite local bakery? Are there honest compliments she might enjoy, such as about how she looks or keeps the house that you can give her?

I'm not saying you can buy your wife but she sounds like a woman who would enjoy gifts and compliments. If you want the marriage to work, you should fervently court her.
I am concerned that just going on a data won't change anything and I need to do something more to prove to her that I care about her happiness...

Then do something! Stop screwing around blogging onthe internet and make a plan to make love bank deposits.

Are you on ADs ? Your thinking is very unclear right now. You seem almost paralyzed.

What can you do today to make love bank deposits? Plan that date, plus ones fo each of the next 7 days. And giving your wife the houshold budget is NOT a gift. Is she the type of woman who likes presents; if so, get her one today. You need to take action. Talk to us alone will not save your marriage. Taking action could.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 07:29 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by typicalman
Any thoughts?

Yes, I have a thought:

Quote
She says I have "treated her badly for 14 years".. I say "6 of the 14 years were before we got married... how do you marry someone that treats you badly for 6 years!!!?"... she responds "love is blind"...

In the Marriage Builders plan, you don't debate your wife like this. Whether she has a personality disorder or not, you don't do this. If you debate your wife, you will lose your marriage.

If you're here to learn how to use this program, we can help you save your marriage, but if you are here to give us a play by play of the debates you have with her, this is never going to work and you might as well see a divorce attorney and stop seeing or talking to her to spare yourself the trauma.

typicalman, are you reading my posts?

Can you stop debating your wife since that is part of following the plan here?

I have read your posts and am thinking more about how to put it in practice. How did you eventually get her to come around? How did you ask her out?
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/04/15 10:07 PM
PLEASE HELP... SOMETHING IS WRONG!!!!

Things aren't adding up here.

The WW is being sooo nice to me.. gave me a hug!
She is so happy after divorce discussion which makes no sense
I was supporting her while she did whatever she wanted.. .now she would be out on her own.
I met with my counselor.. women don't just leave like that without a plan or someone waiting in the wings.

I'm getting a strong feeling that something is not right... why would she want a divorce all of a sudden, be so nice to me, and have no plan. My gut says something is wrong... but what???
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 12:54 AM
Which day was your show?
Posted By: Prisca Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 01:08 AM
Quote
How did you eventually get her to come around?
He got me to come around with PLAN A.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 01:10 AM
Quote
My gut says something is wrong... but what???
YOU'RE A DISRESPECTFUL JERK TO YOUR WIFE.
You could change that, if you would listen to those posting to you instead of argue.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 01:24 AM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Here is his show apples123.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 01:28 AM
I thought so but there are so many details that TM isn't discussing here I had to check.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 01:30 AM
Originally Posted by apples123
I thought so but there are so many details that TM isn't discussing here I had to check.
Yes, I hear you there.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 01:30 AM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by BrainHurts

Yes! this was the show.

I wrote a couple weeks ago and didn't bring up the issues with the children.

The other thing happening a lot is that each time the children fight or one of them gets hurt, mom says "what did dada do to you" ... "did dada punch you?, let me see it"... "did dada say a bad word"... 95% of the time my children say "no, Dada didn't do anything, this is what happened.." about 5% of the time they blame me for something to help get themselves out of trouble. It's truly bizarre behavior and I would imagine it confuses the children quite a bit. I really feel that something is really wrong and I'm considering calling child protective services... I'm just concerned that they are going to laugh at me because there is no physical harm and then it will be he said, she said.

You can hear Dr. Harley's hypothesis on the show about my wife... namely that she felt that I didn't care about her and justified her affair. At one point right before the break, Dr. Harley mentioned that "there may be something deeper going on" and I think there is something very much not right.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 01:38 AM
She should feel that way . he hasn't done anything to show her he cares.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 01:41 AM
His "my way is the only way" approach to marriage is coming back to bite him in the butt.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 01:53 AM
I also understand now why your legal position is so weak considering the things your wife did.

You are controlling and abusive. You cut this woman off from all support other than you then tried to convince her she was crazy. Its like you read a manual on how to gain control over your spouse.

If my sister's husband treated her the way you treat your wife, I would be on a plane to move her and her kids in with me tonight.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 02:00 AM
With regard to her complaints, the move is probably her biggest obstacle. Are you addressing this?
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 03:18 AM
Originally Posted by apples123
I also understand now why your legal position is so weak considering the things your wife did.

You are controlling and abusive. You cut this woman off from all support other than you then tried to convince her she was crazy. Its like you read a manual on how to gain control over your spouse.

If my sister's husband treated her the way you treat your wife, I would be on a plane to move her and her kids in with me tonight.

It's the oposite... one thing that was wrong on Dr Harleys show...she did not go run to her mom's house... she rented an apartment 2 hours away from her mom and less than 1 mile from the OM.




In terms of controlling and abusive...what are you talking about. My wife always does what she wants to do whether I like it or not. She traveled by herself and had an affair... multiple times. I completely trusted her. Please let me know what you are talking about.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 03:21 AM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by apples123
I also understand now why your legal position is so weak considering the things your wife did.

You are controlling and abusive. You cut this woman off from all support other than you then tried to convince her she was crazy. Its like you read a manual on how to gain control over your spouse.

If my sister's husband treated her the way you treat your wife, I would be on a plane to move her and her kids in with me tonight.

It's the oposite... one thing that was wrong on Dr Harleys show...she did not go run to her mom's house... she rented an apartment 2 hours away from her mom and less than 1 mile from the OM.




In terms of controlling and abusive...what are you talking about. My wife always does what she wants to do whether I like it or not. She traveled by herself and had an affair... multiple times. I completely trusted her. Please let me know what you are talking about.

Also... what do you mean "cut her off" .. did you listen to the show... she was free to use facebook, the phone, and traval all she wanted... she had my 100% trust. This was my mistake I now know. I do not live near my family either...so what? We did not live near family before we moved either.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 03:26 AM
Originally Posted by apples123
With regard to her complaints, the move is probably her biggest obstacle. Are you addressing this?

Yes... we talked about moving... there is a place we mutually agreed to move... now she does not want to move...it's really weird
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 11:40 AM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
My gut says something is wrong... but what???
YOU'RE A DISRESPECTFUL JERK TO YOUR WIFE.
You could change that, if you would listen to those posting to you instead of argue.

Yes.. I me asking my wife if she had a "plan" was disrespectful. I stopped doing that. Last night we talked and I simply said that I simply was not going to make assumptions about what she was going to do or what would make her happy but if she wanted to tell me.. I am simply here to listen and help her.


What is weird here as Dr Harley has said, women usually have a plan for divorce long before they actually do it... but, in this case, there seems to be no plan.

This makes me suspicious of some possibilities. ..
Does she plan to take the kids and run again?
Is the other man waiting in the wings to move down here with her once we get the divorce done?
What could she be up to?

Also, I don't think my wife would complain that I try to make her feel "crazy".... that has never ever come up. I have never ever talked to her in any way about any kind of mental problem. When conversation comes up that approaches anything about her erratic behavior.. I just change the subject or pretend it didn't happen.

My therapist who has spent time with both of us says that my wife does not act like an abused woman in any way.

Anyway.. I am really trying. I asked her out on a date twice yesterday... she did not say no, it's just hard to find any time to schedule it. I keep asking though.

Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 12:31 PM
I just wanted to post something about plan A....

I have been in plan a for almost a year now. The main thing I have changed was to meet her top emotional needs. I eliminated demands and anger. I still struggle with DJ'S obviously. .. but, if you talk to her, these are her biggest complaints...

She wants 100% of my paycheck
I filed divorce on her so that has been hanging over her head


By the way...we went out last night. She said that she has a lot of fun. She talked our first date... we laughed at our kids together. I am a fun guy for her to be out with... and we have a fun family dynamic. She has been more affectionate towards me... we've hugged. It's just weird though...like I am waiting for her to turn on me.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 12:45 PM
Keep doing that! Good job.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 12:46 PM
Generally in Plan A, you don't talk about divorce.

Cut-off = no job, no family, no friends, 1000+ miles from home.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 12:53 PM
Perhaps someone who has done Plan A could advise you about what you should do about the divorce. Or you could write Dr. Harley. I don't feel qualified to tell you if you should end that. Though you could always refile later.

Individual counselors can be very harmful to marriage. Be careful with that.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 12:57 PM
I encourage you to read some of Prisca's and Markos's threads, old and new. Their situation was once similar to yours but they have turned it around. I've learned a lot from them.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 01:04 PM
Originally Posted by apples123
Generally in Plan A, you don't talk about divorce.

Cut-off = no job, no family, no friends, 1000+ miles from home.

No family, no friends... I am in the same boat as her on that one.

No job... I know there is that dynamic of being a stay at home mom. Staying at home was her "dream", and by working hard, I made that dream a reality for her. I also have us in a very affluent area with lots of other stay at home moms... she met several other moms through the kids. There were play dates, mom's day outs, and she had met many other friends and moms. She did not open up to them much though.

Personally, her lifestyle, staying at home is not something I could do. It would drive me crazy... I need to get out of the house. It made her happy though.

A couple years ago, I encouraged her to get back in the workforce... she really didn't want to...

Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 01:15 PM
You also reneged on your commitment to move back home if she wasn't happy.

As far as the being in the same boat, you aren't because you were the one who talked her in to moving so you could have the job you wanted. You said so in your show.

ETA; You also misrepresented her leaving when you first started posting. You never mentioned that the place she moved is the place YOU HAD PROMISED to return her to if she was unhappy. The area you used to live, the place she considers home. You made it sound like you were completely surprised and she only did it to be near the OM. But that isn't the truth.

Have you relistened to your show yet? Listen to the things you say. I told her...it wasn't a good time until 3 years...I only submitted resumes locally (aka the place my wife wants to leave.)
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 01:25 PM
" a couple years ago I encouraged to get back in the workforce"...so I could get her off my back about going home.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 01:40 PM
Originally Posted by apples123
You also reneged on your commitment to move back home if she wasn't happy.

As far as the being in the same boat, you aren't because you were the one who talked her in to moving so you could have the job you wanted. You said so in your show.

ETA; You also misrepresented her leaving when you first started posting. You never mentioned that the place she moved is the place YOU HAD PROMISED to return her to if she was unhappy. The area you used to live, the place she considers home. You made it sound like you were completely surprised and she only did it to be near the OM. But that isn't the truth.

Have you relistened to your show yet? Listen to the things you say. I told her...it wasn't a good time until 3 years...I only submitted resumes locally (aka the place my wife wants to leave.)


Ok...this gets confusing. Let me explain.

We grew up in state A... other man lives in state A.

We lived in state B for 5 years before we got married. We continued to live in state B after we were married.

I got the new job in state C.

My wife did not run back to state B where we came from.. she went back to state A where the other man lives, and the high school reunion was.

Does that help?

With regard to job applications... I did look at other jobs in other states.. and there was a job closer to state B... she agreed that we should stay where we are in state C so we don't move the kids. After the high school reunion, she wanted to return to state A.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 01:41 PM
If any of the geographical details are incorrect, please clarify.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 01:42 PM
Cross-post. Thanks for clarifying.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 01:42 PM
How is far are state A and State B? Is that the 2 hours you mentioned?
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 01:47 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by apples123
You also reneged on your commitment to move back home if she wasn't happy.

As far as the being in the same boat, you aren't because you were the one who talked her in to moving so you could have the job you wanted. You said so in your show.

ETA; You also misrepresented her leaving when you first started posting. You never mentioned that the place she moved is the place YOU HAD PROMISED to return her to if she was unhappy. The area you used to live, the place she considers home. You made it sound like you were completely surprised and she only did it to be near the OM. But that isn't the truth.

Have you relistened to your show yet? Listen to the things you say. I told her...it wasn't a good time until 3 years...I only submitted resumes locally (aka the place my wife wants to leave.)


Ok...this gets confusing. Let me explain.

We grew up in state A... other man lives in state A.

We lived in state B for 5 years before we got married. We continued to live in state B after we were married.

I got the new job in state C.

My wife did not run back to state B where we came from.. she went back to state A where the other man lives, and the high school reunion was.

Does that help?

With regard to job applications... I did look at other jobs in other states.. and there was a job closer to state B... she agreed that we should stay where we are in state C so we don't move the kids. After the high school reunion, she wanted to return to state A.

Also... with regard to moving, it's easy for the stay at home mom to just say move me here move me there... I'm the one that has to support the family and figure out the whole career thing, the local economies job market, the industry .

Here is my "beef".. I said that I would move anywhere, but we need to be in it together and figure it out together. I wanted to do it as a team... meaning looking at job opportunities together... or I asked her if she could at least help me with some things around the house while I job searched and sent out resumes

Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 01:55 PM
Originally Posted by apples123
How is far are state A and State B? Is that the 2 hours you mentioned?
No, 1000 miles!
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 01:59 PM
Originally Posted by apples123
How is far are state A and State B? Is that the 2 hours you mentioned?

Just to add claity..state A,B,C make a big triangle 1000's of miles apart.

A and B have nice beaches... she really wanted to spend her summers on the beach while I worked. Our marriage coucelor also made the remark that he felt she is a very selfish person.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 03:07 PM
That is so much clearer. Thanks. It doesn't negate the moving issue but it does make it clear that she left for the affair.

What are you doing for Plan A today?

Do you see why people here are Leary of counselors? None of these have helped your marriage. As an at-home parent, the beach with the kids could be an appropriate place to spend time in the summer.

Have you considered taking her on a get-away? If she likes the beach, go
There or on a cruise or something. Taking off work to spend time with her was one of Dr. Harley's recommendations on your show.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 03:35 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by apples123
You also reneged on your commitment to move back home if she wasn't happy.

As far as the being in the same boat, you aren't because you were the one who talked her in to moving so you could have the job you wanted. You said so in your show.

ETA; You also misrepresented her leaving when you first started posting. You never mentioned that the place she moved is the place YOU HAD PROMISED to return her to if she was unhappy. The area you used to live, the place she considers home. You made it sound like you were completely surprised and she only did it to be near the OM. But that isn't the truth.

Have you relistened to your show yet? Listen to the things you say. I told her...it wasn't a good time until 3 years...I only submitted resumes locally (aka the place my wife wants to leave.)


Ok...this gets confusing. Let me explain.

We grew up in state A... other man lives in state A.

We lived in state B for 5 years before we got married. We continued to live in state B after we were married.

I got the new job in state C.

My wife did not run back to state B where we came from.. she went back to state A where the other man lives, and the high school reunion was.

Does that help?

With regard to job applications... I did look at other jobs in other states.. and there was a job closer to state B... she agreed that we should stay where we are in state C so we don't move the kids. After the high school reunion, she wanted to return to state A.

Also... with regard to moving, it's easy for the stay at home mom to just say move me here move me there... I'm the one that has to support the family and figure out the whole career thing, the local economies job market, the industry .

Here is my "beef".. I said that I would move anywhere, but we need to be in it together and figure it out together. I wanted to do it as a team... meaning looking at job opportunities together... or I asked her if she could at least help me with some things around the house while I job searched and sent out resumes

The thing you need to understand, TM, is in my marriage I'm more like you than your wife. I make 5x what my husband does. It takes 3-6 months in my field to start a new job once you sign a contract. I understand the time and work it takes to get out of a contract. Knowing all of that, you still should have moved back at 2 years. You may still need to move back to save the marriage.

But none of this should distract you from
Plan Aing today

Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 03:40 PM
Originally Posted by apples123
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by apples123
You also reneged on your commitment to move back home if she wasn't happy.

As far as the being in the same boat, you aren't because you were the one who talked her in to moving so you could have the job you wanted. You said so in your show.

ETA; You also misrepresented her leaving when you first started posting. You never mentioned that the place she moved is the place YOU HAD PROMISED to return her to if she was unhappy. The area you used to live, the place she considers home. You made it sound like you were completely surprised and she only did it to be near the OM. But that isn't the truth.

Have you relistened to your show yet? Listen to the things you say. I told her...it wasn't a good time until 3 years...I only submitted resumes locally (aka the place my wife wants to leave.)


Ok...this gets confusing. Let me explain.

We grew up in state A... other man lives in state A.

We lived in state B for 5 years before we got married. We continued to live in state B after we were married.

I got the new job in state C.

My wife did not run back to state B where we came from.. she went back to state A where the other man lives, and the high school reunion was.

Does that help?

With regard to job applications... I did look at other jobs in other states.. and there was a job closer to state B... she agreed that we should stay where we are in state C so we don't move the kids. After the high school reunion, she wanted to return to state A.

Also... with regard to moving, it's easy for the stay at home mom to just say move me here move me there... I'm the one that has to support the family and figure out the whole career thing, the local economies job market, the industry .

Here is my "beef".. I said that I would move anywhere, but we need to be in it together and figure it out together. I wanted to do it as a team... meaning looking at job opportunities together... or I asked her if she could at least help me with some things around the house while I job searched and sent out resumes

The thing you need to understand, TM, is in my marriage I'm more like you than your wife. I make 5x what my husband does. It takes 3-6 months in my field to start a new job once you sign a contract. I understand the time and work it takes to get out of a contract. Knowing all of that, you still should have moved back at 2 years. You may still need to move back to save the marriage.

But none of this should distract you from
Plan Aing today

I agree.. I am happy to move back to State B TODAY... but now, she wants a divorce which means we are going to be stuck here basically forever.. unless we both agree at some point in the future that we both want to move
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 04:49 PM
So Plan A is your best chance at the life you want.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 05:06 PM
Originally Posted by apples123
So Plan A is your best chance at the life you want.
Yeah... I'm confused though. If my wife really wants to move, divorcing me could mean she is stuck here forever, so why does she want to divorce me? I already told her I would move for her... divorce does nothing but guarantee misery for her. I would think that working things out with me would be on her best interest.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 07:01 PM
Has she taken any action on the divorce? No. You also seem to be the one who keeps bringing it up.

So this is your chance to Plan A and win her back. Take advantage of her good mood to make some Lov Bank deposits.

What is your Plan A agenda for today?
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 07:22 PM
Originally Posted by apples123
Has she taken any action on the divorce? No. You also seem to be the one who keeps bringing it up.

So this is your chance to Plan A and win her back. Take advantage of her good mood to make some Lov Bank deposits.

What is your Plan A agenda for today?
I asked her to go on a walk with me this morning... she said she wanted to, but she was just waking up so she couldn't. We have birthday party to go to with the kids later.

I have filed for divorce... but the action she has taken is to ask me to draw up on a piece of paper custody and division of assets so we can review it together then send it to the lawyers to get it finalized. We have a final court date next month.. the only way we can possibly be ready is if we sit down and work everything out our selves.

Last night I told her that if getting thus divorce done makes her happy, I would do it. I said that I would like to still work on our friendship and maybe it would be better to do that from a safer place.. being divorced. She said that she would be happy if I went out and found the Texas woman that I always wanted.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 07:25 PM
One thing she said was that she was that one thing that made her really happy is that when she asked for divorce, I did not get mad. I did not cut her out... I am still doing things with her like going out to dinner. That is making her happy.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 07:48 PM
Whats the Texas woman thing?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 08:12 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by apples123
So Plan A is your best chance at the life you want.
Yeah... I'm confused though. If my wife really wants to move, divorcing me could mean she is stuck here forever, so why does she want to divorce me? I already told her I would move for her... divorce does nothing but guarantee misery for her. I would think that working things out with me would be on her best interest.


She is a wayward. Long term planning and for the best planning is not exactly their thing. More of a pinball of emotions kind of plan. That's why you plan A because it focuses on teeny daily emotions. Ping the pinball yourself.


Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by apples123
Has she taken any action on the divorce? No. You also seem to be the one who keeps bringing it up.

So this is your chance to Plan A and win her back. Take advantage of her good mood to make some Lov Bank deposits.

What is your Plan A agenda for today?
I asked her to go on a walk with me this morning... she said she wanted to, but she was just waking up so she couldn't. We have birthday party to go to with the kids later.

I have filed for divorce... but the action she has taken is to ask me to draw up on a piece of paper custody and division of assets so we can review it together then send it to the lawyers to get it finalized. We have a final court date next month.. the only way we can possibly be ready is if we sit down and work everything out our selves.

Last night I told her that if getting thus divorce done makes her happy, I would do it. I said that I would like to still work on our friendship and maybe it would be better to do that from a safer place.. being divorced. She said that she would be happy if I went out and found the Texas woman that I always wanted.

Right, the pinball is pinging you. Doing whatever makes a wayward happy is a disastrous plan. She'll have the shirt off your back, and make you the star of a porno.

Her goal is to wreck the marriage and you are sitting down with her to draw up divorce plans you don't want for a pat on the head!

Is this a wind up?

Just say I dont want a divorce shnookums, go out and pick up her favourite snack and a bunch of flowers.

Then go online house hunting in her home state and ask her how many bedrooms she wants. How close to the beach?

Put up with the sulky reply. Get up and do it all again tomorrow.

Plan A is to create a happy feeling ABOUT the marriage. It's like shooting fish in a barrel to make them happy about going along with their addiction. All you'll end up with though is dead fish.

No she will not like or encourage plan A. Yes she will pout. But she will not be able to help noticing. Plan A is a hostile take over not a roll over and play dead plan.

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 08:18 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Last night I told her that if getting thus divorce done makes her happy, I would do it. I said that I would like to still work on our friendship and maybe it would be better to do that from a safer place.. being divorced. She said that she would be happy if I went out and found the Texas woman that I always wanted.


This would make any woman feel unwanted. No woman wants to hear she's just a pal, even if she's doing the walking. Hence her dig back where she says she's just a non jealous friend too.

Right now her addiction wants you to not care, to allow her to sink. But when she gets free, she'll remember stuff like this where you agreed you weren't in love, didn't care either.

Be a broken record about your love, about not wanting the divorce.

Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 08:37 PM
So what should I do? Refuse to divorce her? She will tell me she wants me to find another woman, but if she sees me talking to one, she gets extremely angry and I see it in her face. What should I do about the divorce? My therapist wants me to get the divorce done ASAP to protect myself from her. Dr Harley also thinks it's a good idea. In my gut.. I feel like I 'm doing something very immoral even talking about divorce... I feel this horrible pit in my stomach.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 09:24 PM
See, ICs ruin marriages.

That is not what Dr. Harley said. He said Plan A as long as you can.

Listen to the show again.
Get your wife a gift.
Halt the divorce.
Read Markos posts.
Plan a better date. Entice her.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 09:29 PM
Beware of Bad Counselors
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 10:22 PM
Originally Posted by apples123
See, ICs ruin marriages.

That is not what Dr. Harley said. He said Plan A as long as you can.

Listen to the show again.
Get your wife a gift.
Halt the divorce.
Read Markos posts.
Plan a better date. Entice her.

The problem is that this is the same therapist that was our marriage coucilor... he thinks my wife is nuts and wants to protect me from her.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 10:48 PM
Originally Posted by apples123
See, ICs ruin marriages.

That is not what Dr. Harley said. He said Plan A as long as you can.

Listen to the show again.
Get your wife a gift.
Halt the divorce.
Read Markos posts.
Plan a better date. Entice her.

Please help me... specifically what should I say about this divorce? Everything I do seems to come off as disrespectful.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 11:15 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by apples123
See, ICs ruin marriages.

That is not what Dr. Harley said. He said Plan A as long as you can.

Listen to the show again.
Get your wife a gift.
Halt the divorce.
Read Markos posts.
Plan a better date. Entice her.

The problem is that this is the same therapist that was our marriage coucilor... he thinks my wife is nuts and wants to protect me from her.

Being an MC doesn't make a difference. Did you read the article Brain Hurts Posted?
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 11:17 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by apples123
So Plan A is your best chance at the life you want.
Yeah... I'm confused though. If my wife really wants to move, divorcing me could mean she is stuck here forever, so why does she want to divorce me? I already told her I would move for her... divorce does nothing but guarantee misery for her. I would think that working things out with me would be on her best interest.


She is a wayward. Long term planning and for the best planning is not exactly their thing. More of a pinball of emotions kind of plan. That's why you plan A because it focuses on teeny daily emotions. Ping the pinball yourself.


Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by apples123
Has she taken any action on the divorce? No. You also seem to be the one who keeps bringing it up.

So this is your chance to Plan A and win her back. Take advantage of her good mood to make some Lov Bank deposits.

What is your Plan A agenda for today?
I asked her to go on a walk with me this morning... she said she wanted to, but she was just waking up so she couldn't. We have birthday party to go to with the kids later.

I have filed for divorce... but the action she has taken is to ask me to draw up on a piece of paper custody and division of assets so we can review it together then send it to the lawyers to get it finalized. We have a final court date next month.. the only way we can possibly be ready is if we sit down and work everything out our selves.

Last night I told her that if getting thus divorce done makes her happy, I would do it. I said that I would like to still work on our friendship and maybe it would be better to do that from a safer place.. being divorced. She said that she would be happy if I went out and found the Texas woman that I always wanted.

Right, the pinball is pinging you. Doing whatever makes a wayward happy is a disastrous plan. She'll have the shirt off your back, and make you the star of a porno.

Her goal is to wreck the marriage and you are sitting down with her to draw up divorce plans you don't want for a pat on the head!

Is this a wind up?

Just say I dont want a divorce shnookums, go out and pick up her favourite snack and a bunch of flowers.

Then go online house hunting in her home state and ask her how many bedrooms she wants. How close to the beach?

Put up with the sulky reply. Get up and do it all again tomorrow.

Plan A is to create a happy feeling ABOUT the marriage. It's like shooting fish in a barrel to make them happy about going along with their addiction. All you'll end up with though is dead fish.

No she will not like or encourage plan A. Yes she will pout. But she will not be able to help noticing. Plan A is a hostile take over not a roll over and play dead plan.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/05/15 11:20 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Did you listen to the clips in here or read the articles in here?
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/06/15 12:20 AM
you struggle because you are not studying the plan materials. You keep asking questions that were just answered.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/06/15 12:31 AM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Did you listen to the clips in here or read the articles in here?
I have been with my wife almost all day...so I can't read all the clips. This is the MC that put us on the MB program...but his view is that if I don't give my wife what she wants, she might go crazy again... accuse me of child sexual abuse or something like that where they don't even ask questions before locking you up...so he has put the scare in me even more. His view also that her willingness for her to divorce is a gift and I should take it and go find someone else.

Anyway... here is how the party went, she was real nice to me and we talked a little and had fun. I also found a couple men to talk to. As we were leaving a married woman we know was talking to me. When we got home, I could tell she was annoyed by that and she said "why don't you go for her"
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/06/15 12:39 AM
If you are unsure what advice to follow, write Dr. Harley. He and Mrs. Joyce will be happy to clarify.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/06/15 02:18 AM
I did send them a note and am waiting for a reply. For now, when she wants to talk about the divorce, I think I'll stall her....want to have a drink and play a game? What do you want for Christmas?

By the way... today I found out about a big deception... every day this week, I have been telling her that our deposit had not hit the accout... I was about to call the bank and finally she told me that she took the money. I told her I wasn't mad but I felt really hurt that she was dishonest with me all week. She DEFINITELY is someone that cannot be trusted... which is why I am scared. I just caught her looking at my cell phone code when I typed it in tonight.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/06/15 02:27 AM
Did you ask her why she lied about it all week? What did she say?
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/06/15 02:58 AM
she said that she took it because she was planning to ask for divorce... I think she was wanting to stockpile the money because she did not know how I would react... perhaps she thought I would make her leave the house...
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/06/15 03:09 AM
I have another question /comment... regarding the kids.

My 7 year old told me people as school say they are glad he is a back and ask him where he went last year. He told me he lies and tells them that he went on vacation. He told me that he was embarrassed to tell the truth about his mom. What do I do... I am having trouble encouraging him to lie... I also don't want him to feel embarrassed about anything... the truth is that the whole world pretty much knows what mom did.

The other thing I will say.. for the past couple days, my wife has started to be a better mom. She has been supporting my parenting.. she is even starting to show concern about the asthma.. she did not for my son to take his inhaler, but she did encourage him to take it this time.. he still refused. But she has been so much nicer to me and originally I thought her asking for a divorce was a blessing... but after the last couple days, I don't want a divorce... she has been a bit of a different person.

When I put the pieces of the puzzle together though... I think I have figured out what is going on!!!!!

Her #1 emotional need is family commitment.. guess what is going on?? it's so obvious.

She want to get a divorce.. but she suggested that we live in the same neighborhood. She even said tonight that she wanted us to get along so that I could be there to help her with the children. She obviously wants to set this divorce up so that I still meet this very important emotional need for her.

She is trying to manipulate me to do this for her.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/06/15 09:38 AM
Originally Posted by typicalman
been with my wife almost all day...so I can't read all the clips. This is the MC that put us on the MB program...but his view is that if I don't give my wife what she wants, she might go crazy again... accuse me of child sexual abuse or something like that where they don't even ask questions before locking you up...so he has put the scare in me even more. "


He doesn't know how to follow the program though. You never follow a spouse's wishes blindly because that doesn't halt their destructiveness at all. Yes WWs make serious allegations sometimes. If that's a real concern you record all conversations with her, keep a VAR on you or go into Plan B where you wait for her to unfog. I don't see any reason why you can't plan A but it is a tough gig.

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/06/15 10:34 AM
This is wifedivorcing's thread. His wife was poised to move in with OM and became vicious when WD did not agree to every wayward's fantasy - the buddy divorce. His is the most masterful plan A I have ever seen. He won her back and they are happily recovering today.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2797740&page=1

It shows the best and worst of plan A. How empowering it is, how effective, but it also shows what a trial and even a danger it is.

We warned WD that it appeared his wife seemed poised to make serious false allegations against him. Because he was an armed officer and she joined forces with corrupt officers that meant even with precautions he had a very bad few days. Most people avoid that with precautions and even WD prevailed. Quite spectacularly.

If you want to take your therapist's advice and divorce, then stop talking to her about it, do it and forget about her. But it's your decision, not his.

Plan A is doable, but you can't support her destructive intentions and plan A at the same time. Plan A opposes what she wants. What you are doing is the confused version of MB, plan C, which is just a drawn out death of a thousand cuts in which you get jerked around by Jekyll and Hyde and support her delusions that you don't love her much and you're much better as friends.

Read WDs adventure in which he persuaded his wife no one cared as much he did and decide if you are all in with plan A.

If not, stop the divorce lapdog blogger routine and have your lawyer send her the divorce info as you move on.

Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/06/15 02:27 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
This is wifedivorcing's thread. His wife was poised to move in with OM and became vicious when WD did not agree to every wayward's fantasy - the buddy divorce. His is the most masterful plan A I have ever seen. He won her back and they are happily recovering today.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2797740&page=1

It shows the best and worst of plan A. How empowering it is, how effective, but it also shows what a trial and even a danger it is.

We warned WD that it appeared his wife seemed poised to make serious false allegations against him. Because he was an armed officer and she joined forces with corrupt officers that meant even with precautions he had a very bad few days. Most people avoid that with precautions and even WD prevailed. Quite spectacularly.

If you want to take your therapist's advice and divorce, then stop talking to her about it, do it and forget about her. But it's your decision, not his.

Plan A is doable, but you can't support her destructive intentions and plan A at the same time. Plan A opposes what she wants. What you are doing is the confused version of MB, plan C, which is just a drawn out death of a thousand cuts in which you get jerked around by Jekyll and Hyde and support her delusions that you don't love her much and you're much better as friends.

Read WDs adventure in which he persuaded his wife no one cared as much he did and decide if you are all in with plan A.

If not, stop the divorce lapdog blogger routine and have your lawyer send her the divorce info as you move on.

Ok...wow... I can't possibly hide in the bathroom long enough to read all of this now but I'll try.

I do want to save my marriage... but it's hard to come to terms what the risk really is that I am facing.

Yes... she definitely is in the position of let's divorce, you do all the work to make it happen, and make it as comfortable for me as possible.

Her lawyer had counter sued me for divorce, so I don't think I should just drop my divorce petition.. that would then put her in control which I don't want to do.

I was thinking of the following strategy...
1. Ask my lawyer to postpone or cancel any pending court dates... and I don't know what can/ cannot be done.
2. Go about life... go Christmas shopping for her, continue doing everything together, talk about family stuff just as if nothing was going on.
3. If she asks me to do divorce stuff... just say, sure.. wanna drink? Let's play cards? Let's chat... how was your day? Bla, bla... last night, I think she would have wanted to... I just fell asleep.

This morning was weird... she was online looking at some jobs in state A, and then she looked at some in state C. I wonder if she has some fantasy about moving up there or OM moving here, but she just doesn't know.

I kinda wish I knew if this divorce thing is just because she hates my guts or if she is plotting with OM to get together. It seems like probably the latter because she wants to have this nice friendly divorce. Also, she could just be thinking, I want out of this so I can have freedom to do whatever I want... but I have no specific plan... when dad has the kids, I am free to get on a plane and see whoever I want...

What I really want to know is if my plan is OK? Should I just say "pass the turkey" when she wants to talk about divorce or should I say something else? should I keep myself in the drivers seat.. or should I withdraw my petition and let he sure me for divorce?
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/06/15 03:13 PM
Something else that has been bothering me that my simple brain can't seem to understand... perhaps some women on the forum can help me..

If my wife is a stay at home mom and she feels "trapped", or controlled, or not enough access to money, etc... she is just miserable. Why would the solution not be to just say "honey, I'd like to go back to work"... I'd say "thank GOD!!! how can I help you?

I'm not some mean Jerk who wants to control her or abuse her in anyway.. infact, all I have tried to do is support her in what would make her happy, but I just fail miserably at understanding her perspective. Even if she wanted to continue to stay at home but have more control over the finances, I have said sure... lets work on it together, but then she just goes off and we never talk again.

Just yesterday I said... do you want my entire paycheck? let me just give it to you and we'll see if that makes you happier. She said, that would have been nice 4 years ago.

To me it feels like she wants to blame me for all her suffering an unhappiness, but she doesn't really want me to help solve the problem. I am in a perpetual "no win" scenario.

Over time, it just becomes so illogical, and so fruitless to try to make her happy, I give up. I let her rant, but then never do anything because she never follows through. She seems to have a hard time expressing her feelings.. but she can express that a particular thing is bothering her, but she is unwilling to actually work with me on the solution.

When I say, she never follows through.. I mean, I could follow through and give her my entire paycheck... but it would then just sit there... she won't pay the mortgage or the bills or do anything with it... She won't sit down with me to go over things so I just have to put things back the way they were. She will just say she is too busy to do it... but blame me for being controlling with the money.

Do you see how I feel that I get put in this "no win" situation? What am I doing wrong?

What seems to me is that she has picked this lifestyle, and had this fantasy about happy she would be and she wanted the best of all worlds.. stay at home mom, but have tons of money, go to the beach everyday, have complete feeling of independence etc... that's kinda how life was set up for her in our prior state.. but the real world is really not like that. She seems to want to blame me for all her unhappiness.

the kids have picked it up as well.. and at a time yesterday all three of them were unhappy... this computer wasn't working, the TV was getting the show one of them wanted, my wife wanted her own show to come in somewhere else, they we all blaming me, pulling my arms, hitting me, and saying Dada I hate you.. solve this problem for me. I told them I was about to have a meltdown and they all needed to just stop or I would need to leave the house.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/06/15 03:32 PM
Do whatever you have to do legally to protect yourself. All I'm saying is you shouldn't chit chat about it in person with your wife. Let the lawyers handle it, change the subject and tell her she looks beautiful.

Originally Posted by typicalman
I kinda wish I knew if this divorce thing is just because she hates my guts or if she is plotting with OM to get together. It seems like probably the latter because she wants to have this nice friendly divorce. Also, she could just be thinking, I want out of this so I can have freedom to do whatever I want... but I have no specific plan... when dad has the kids, I am free to get on a plane and see whoever I want...


Her thinking is in no way that clear. It jumps around like a grasshopper. Her main priority is to keep feeling like the star of a trashy novel torn between two lovers.

Originally Posted by typicalman
What I really want to know is if my plan is OK? Should I just say "pass the turkey" when she wants to talk about divorce or should I say something else?


Not a bad response at all. Or 'you look beautiful' or 'that's too heartbreaking to discuss' or 'my lawyer handles that. I just want to make the most of you while I still have you, I'm going out to buy delicious food for tonight'.

Essentially she wants two things from those discussions: either to hurt you and make you feel powerless or to get an admission that you don't care either so she can take yet another complaint about your loveless marriage to OM. Of course the idea that you will always pine for her on the back boiler is appealing too because OM can't meet all her needs.


One successful plan A poster, I think it was Mr Wondering, told his wife he was happy too woo her back and accept friendship for now, but he wouldn't be around forever. This might be worth your while spelling out. Given her reaction to other women, it's clear she's enjoying your plan A effort and shee really wants you on that back burner worshipping her for life.

Maybe something like: "I haven't been totally honest with you. I don't want this divorce at all because I love you far too much, and am far too attracted to you to ever be just friends. For example if I remarried, I would never expect my new wife to put up with an ex wife hanging around. I would lose you.

So when we talk about divorce I am panic stricken at the idea of losing you.

"So because it's too heartbreaking to discuss I will leave it to the lawyers. While I still have you I want to enjoy happier topics. Of course I hope you will change your mind, but please respect my feelings if you don't."

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/06/15 03:54 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Something else that has been bothering me that my simple brain can't seem to understand... perhaps some women on the forum can help me..

If my wife is a stay at home mom and she feels "trapped", or controlled, or not enough access to money, etc... she is just miserable. Why would the solution not be to just say "honey, I'd like to go back to work"... I'd say "thank GOD!!! how can I help you?
.


Your wife isn't currently speaking as a woman but as a wayward, so she is going to be highly entitled. Not the right time to speak about it.

However I am concerned at this idea that she has to go out to work in order to have a say in the finances of her own household. One of the main jobs in running a family house full time is streamlining and managing finances so it is puzzling to me why she should have to go out to work to get the money she needs to do a homemakers job? That puts more money in the joint pot, but also more expense like childcare! She would also have less time to plan out her household finances and budget.

If a woman has a high need for FS, she can make her own money if she isn't supported, but she won't be in love with her husband because he isn't providing for her. She won't mind doing the job most times, but she won't think much of the husband. Such women are happier being single and providing for themselves than living with a man who will not provide for them.

My mother ran the household finances, using a system very like PoJA to agree overall spending with my dad before he left her to implement the plan as her work while he went to his work. She would offer to get a job in tough times, but he never wanted her to sacrifice this good set up. I know any suggestion that she get a job to have a financial vote would have seen her head for the nearest lawyer to claim her 50pc. She would have considered the implication that her work was unpaid and unsupportive of the household finances to be very insulting.

I don't have a need for FS, but I see why too.

Originally Posted by typicalman
Just yesterday I said... do you want my entire paycheck? let me just give it to you and we'll see if that makes you happier. She said, that would have been nice 4 years ago.
.


She will have seen through this offer in moments. It is unlikely this would have been a good or cheerful solution.

Just tell her any spending at all needs her enthusiastic approval. You won't make any decisions she hasn't signed off. I would also say you want to reopen any spending requests she has made recently. Listen carefully to each one and try to give your vote in each circumstance carefully and enthusiastically. Massive FS deposits made linked to affection by taking her option seriously and being respectful. Speak to her as your partner. Don't just throw money at her like charity. It's hers too.

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/06/15 04:16 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
. Even if she wanted to continue to stay at home but have more control over the finances, I have said sure... lets work on it together, but then she just goes off and we never talk again.


Why don't you bring it up again? It's just as important to you right?

Originally Posted by typicalman
What seems to me is that she has picked this lifestyle, and had this fantasy about happy she would be and she wanted the best of all worlds.. stay at home mom, but have tons of money, go to the beach everyday, have complete feeling of independence etc... that's kinda how life was set up for her in our prior state.. but the real world is really not like that. She seems to want to blame me for all her unhappiness.


I don't see any reason why she should not be happy in her work, remuneration, location, or lifestyle! Aren't you?

Did you tell her before marriage you wanted this for her or did you forewarn her to expect the 'Real World' with you?

I think perhaps we might be talking about your unhappiness and sacrifice and an expectation she should share it.

But MB eliminates sacrifice instead of spreading it around.


Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/06/15 04:38 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by typicalman
. Even if she wanted to continue to stay at home but have more control over the finances, I have said sure... lets work on it together, but then she just goes off and we never talk again.


Why don't you bring it up again? It's just as important to you right?

Originally Posted by typicalman
What seems to me is that she has picked this lifestyle, and had this fantasy about happy she would be and she wanted the best of all worlds.. stay at home mom, but have tons of money, go to the beach everyday, have complete feeling of independence etc... that's kinda how life was set up for her in our prior state.. but the real world is really not like that. She seems to want to blame me for all her unhappiness.


I don't see any reason why she should not be happy in her work, remuneration, location, or lifestyle! Aren't you?

Did you tell her before marriage you wanted this for her or did you forewarn her to expect the 'Real World' with you?

I think perhaps we might be talking about your unhappiness and sacrifice and an expectation she should share it.

But MB eliminates sacrifice instead of spreading it around.

Prior to marriage she was a hard worker. She did want to stay home, but she was also willing to do the home economics thing and make some sacrafices to do so. It's true that I did not put as much value in what she was doing. I would come home to the house a mess, kids running wild, bounced checks, etc.. when she left, and I was alone with the kids.. I worked full time, took care of the kids, they were happier, more well behaved, the house was cleaner, my spending was way down... it left me asking myself.. what was she doing?

I really want a partner in life and not someone that just wants to be a drain on me. Originally, when we first married, and before kids, she did feel like a partner.

I sleep about 5 hours a night and she sleeps about 10. I became heartbroken by how little she did and how poorly she has been raising the children.

She does feel entitled to 100% of everything, not 50%... and I need to put in 200% to enable her to sit on the couch, watch TV, go to the beach, etc... I could never say this to her, but it did make it hard to treat her with as much respect as I probably could have. All I asked for was an equal partner in life but I feel like I got a spoiled teenager instead. I know asking her to work is a lovebuster... but my view was that not working was more of a luxury than an entitlement. I was proud to be able to provide that life for her and happy that I was making her happy. Now, I 'm some kind of abusive monster for giving her this gift.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/06/15 04:44 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by typicalman
. Even if she wanted to continue to stay at home but have more control over the finances, I have said sure... lets work on it together, but then she just goes off and we never talk again.


Why don't you bring it up again? It's just as important to you right?

Originally Posted by typicalman
What seems to me is that she has picked this lifestyle, and had this fantasy about happy she would be and she wanted the best of all worlds.. stay at home mom, but have tons of money, go to the beach everyday, have complete feeling of independence etc... that's kinda how life was set up for her in our prior state.. but the real world is really not like that. She seems to want to blame me for all her unhappiness.


I don't see any reason why she should not be happy in her work, remuneration, location, or lifestyle! Aren't you?

Did you tell her before marriage you wanted this for her or did you forewarn her to expect the 'Real World' with you?

I think perhaps we might be talking about your unhappiness and sacrifice and an expectation she should share it.

But MB eliminates sacrifice instead of spreading it around.

YES! My expectation before marriage is that we would work together as a team. Neither sacrafice.. but rather work together toward a mutual goal. Where did all this entitlement stuff come from?

Oh, and I would bring it up... I would say, let's sit at the computer tonight and go over the finances... but she would always say she didn't have time because there is an important TV show on. She could only talk during the commercial. If the commercial is over mid sentence, I get cut off mid sentence and have to start over at the next commercial.
Posted By: living_well Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/06/15 06:23 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
All I asked for was an equal partner in life but I feel like I got a spoiled teenager instead.


You created the spoiled teenager. Can you see how that happened? Instead of making her your partner, you controlled everything and demanded gratitude.

What you should have done is POJAed your spending, her spending and the management of the household finances. Instead you required her to justify her spending but never yours. Then when she complained, you threw the entire management of the household budget at her. Of course she failed at that (you knew she would) and it was back to being a teenager again.

But you can stop treating her as a teenager. If she is watching television instead of making dinner, tell her that you would like to be her cooking partner, would now be a good time to go to the kitchen together?

If you want to talk about the budget, ask her when would be good for her. Make the discussion pleasant. She may not want to sit at your computer. I know that for me paper works better. She may prefer just to talk with no paper at all. Ask her respectfully and tell her you would value her input.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/06/15 06:41 PM
If you haven't listened to Friday's show, now would be a good time. Dr. Harley discussed logic and the put-falls of presenting your view-point as the logical one. Essentially, all logic is based on assumptions; two people can reach perfectly logical, different conclusions if their assumptions are different.

Also, comparing the cleanliness of house of a stay-at-home parent to one of working parent is unfair. Why? Because the most of messes happen at daycare for the working parent. I've seen my sister have to clean 4-5 times a day when her kids stay home all day.

This is also why I would never be a stay-in-home parent. Everyone judges harshly and tends to think You are lazy if the house and kids aren't perfect. Plus, You are vulnerable financially.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/06/15 06:43 PM
I should also note that my sister has OCD. I don't think cleaning your house 5 times per day is normal.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/06/15 08:00 PM
Originally Posted by apples123
If you haven't listened to Friday's show, now would be a good time. Dr. Harley discussed logic and the put-falls of presenting your view-point as the logical one. Essentially, all logic is based on assumptions; two people can reach perfectly logical, different conclusions if their assumptions are different.

Also, comparing the cleanliness of house of a stay-at-home parent to one of working parent is unfair. Why? Because the most of messes happen at daycare for the working parent. I've seen my sister have to clean 4-5 times a day when her kids stay home all day.

This is also why I would never be a stay-in-home parent. Everyone judges harshly and tends to think You are lazy if the house and kids aren't perfect. Plus, You are vulnerable financially.

Ok..yes, I understand. I think the point is that I do NOT really appreciate her staying at home is something to make her happy. I sacrafice a clean house and financially to do this for her. I see now the problem where we never did this in a way that would make me happy too, but I took pleasure in thinking I was making her happy.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/06/15 08:33 PM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by typicalman
All I asked for was an equal partner in life but I feel like I got a spoiled teenager instead.


You created the spoiled teenager. Can you see how that happened? Instead of making her your partner, you controlled everything and demanded gratitude.

What you should have done is POJAed your spending, her spending and the management of the household finances. Instead you required her to justify her spending but never yours. Then when she complained, you threw the entire management of the household budget at her. Of course she failed at that (you knew she would) and it was back to being a teenager again.

But you can stop treating her as a teenager. If she is watching television instead of making dinner, tell her that you would like to be her cooking partner, would now be a good time to go to the kitchen together?

If you want to talk about the budget, ask her when would be good for her. Make the discussion pleasant. She may not want to sit at your computer. I know that for me paper works better. She may prefer just to talk with no paper at all. Ask her respectfully and tell her you would value her input.


We DID start that way... following POJA...when kids came she just didn't want to talk anymore.. she said she had no time for it... consequently, things began to spiral in the direction where we are today. Children became #1 and POJA, and meeting needs and everything else just took a back seat.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/06/15 09:00 PM
Ok... plan A is going good. We went to church together.. I bought her a coffee, I told her she looks nice... she said "not so bad yourself".. I gave her a forehead kiss. We are having this financial and stay at home mom discussion on the forum, but the reality is that divorce solves none of these problems for her. The OM solves none of these problems for her... if I treat her half way decent.. staying married to me is really in her best interest. I can't change the past and I can't teach her to manage the family finances overnight. Financial support was NOT one of her top 5 emotional needs... and I am doing very well at meeting her top 3.. family support, conversation, admiration.

I think we started the right way with the POJA in our marriage, but we had children very quickly. by the time the second child came which was also about the time we moved she just decided there was no there was no more time for POJA, meeting my needs was last on her priority list, and we end up where we are. Her solution to the problem ultimately was to reach out to an opposite sex friend which became an affair. I am now trying to clean up this mess
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/06/15 09:45 PM
I think you are definitely doing some aspects really well.... But this focus on what you think's best for her, and big relationship issues right now, are a worry.

You are trying to run before you can walk. None of those issues can be tackled now and you can resolve them later by following this program in recovery and learning to poja together. You can learn how to do poja on your end here and ensure you don't commit IB with the money. In the meantime you have more than enough to do by eliminating lovebusters, especially DJs. Which is always job#1.

Disrespect is the toughest one to learn.

Yeah it's sad you two didn't get to learn negotiationing skills about the budget before now. Sad you fell into the common pitfalls of kids come first, and I'll sacrifice for you. But that's not the job of the day. Job of the day is don't say DJs like "Gosh only 100pc access to all the money would satisfy you!"

Instead of, "yeah you should have a say 100pc of the time. That's totally understandable".

Eliminate lovebusters, meet needs, wait out the A. Thats it. Put the rest in a box with any expectations you have of her.

That requires patience and acceptance. It does not require you talking about what her best move is (but it might require you presenting yourself as such over time) or how to revolutionize her plans or relationship attitude overnight.


Originally Posted by typicalman
I can't teach her to manage the family finances overnight.


Just woefully disrespectful! You don't teach EVER, you poja.

Originally Posted by typicalman
. Financial support was NOT one of her top 5 emotional needs... and I am doing very well at meeting her top 3.. family support, conversation, admiration.


Anyone who is a full time parent/wants to return to study etc, has this need, however high up. It's not an intimate need but you'd notice the lack if you had it. Like with all needs it must be met cheerfully and enthusiastically to have any effect. When she says you were controlling the money what she means is she felt you gave her entitlement of funds in a grudging way and she didn't feel there was enthusiastic provision from you. Which I think you'd accept because you weren't happy, you were sacrificing.

You'd have the need yourself if you lost your job. You'd expect your wife to continue allowing you access to funds.

Think how you would feel if you were out of work, even for a short time, but this was used to express that you were undeserving of a say, or that you needed to be taught how to budget, simply because she had a job?

You've a long way to go with DJs. I'd listen to the radio every day if I were you. Avoid heavy life changing talks.

Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/07/15 03:19 AM
Absolutely, I agree with the DJ's.. I see it now. it was very subtle, but my instinct is to lecture and pontificate to try to get her to see things my way. It rarely works.

With regards to my income, I really need to be honest here about my feelings. POJA is the ONLY way this is going to work in the long run.

Firstly.. I feel like my income is my "body".. it's my time, my toil, my sweat and my tears. I worked hard and saved, sacrificed my body and mind BEFORE we were married so that I can have the income that I have today.

I feel like a woman would feel if a man felt entitled to sexual fulfillment from his wife even if he mistreated her and he could just take it any time he wanted to. Hey... half of it is mine, right??? no, it's actually basically rape. That is really how I feel.. a wife that sits home cheating on me, doing nothing to meet any of my needs, and abusing me constantly.. just to take my money which comes from my life and body feels to me like "rape" ... I feel completely taken advantage of, disrespected, and used. This sounds extreme.. .but THOSE ARE THE REAL FEELINGS I HAVE BEEN LIVING WITH. I want to give my wife my income because she is a good wife and she loves me and I love her... but without that love, I just don't want to.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/07/15 04:12 AM
I know it doesn't sound like alot of money, but I have paid ALL the bills, we are together alot and I am buying her things every time she asks, and taking her and the kids out to dinner several times a week.. it all adds up.

The real problem here is to restore this love. My wife never fell in love with me because I gave her all my money... but I did take care of her, I did spend all my time with her, and we were friends... The real problem is that all went away with the kids... we do almost nothing together just the two of us.

We just went out again tonight... we all had such a fun time.. We are still having alot of fun together, it's just that the kids are with us. The financial stuff didn't really start becoming a problem until AFTER she stopped spending time with me for a while... our relationship just needs love in it to grease the wheels or every little thing turns into a major problem.

I could give her my entire paycheck for a couple months.. but ultimately.. even if I don't, all the bills get paid, she gets everything she wants, and this is really not the main issue... it's not the reason we fell in love. When we first met and my wife worked, we had things in common.. we could meet up after work and appreciate having someone to talk to. I really don't think it's the financial support that is the problem but rather a symptom of us not being in love... she would not care about the money if we were in love. Her love bank is closed to me for some reason despite how much fun we are having together, how great a dad I am, how many compliments I give her... It seems that this affair she had made her just put my love bank so far in the negative it's taking a heroic effort to claw my way back up.

Basically now, I'm giving her everything she wants. I can really feel that I completely through her off guard.. when the next day after she asked for divorce.. I woke up with a smile.. took her and the kids out for dinner, and have gone on to continue to cheerfully continue to do everything as a family. I told her I wasn't mad that she took our money.. and if she runs out or needs anything.. just let me know.

I am trying really hard to stop lecturing... relationship talks will do nothing good. I will keep going... when I kissed her forehead today, she leaned towards me to be kissed as if she knew it was coming instead of pulling away. I can feel some small amount of deposits must be getting through.

I also was looking at my wife's facebook page.. the pictures that she was posting 4 years ago were some pictures from our wedding.. EXCEPT I was not in the pictures and the other man was in one of the pictures. How does that make me feel.. I have been disregarded as her husband for years I think and this affair has probably been building much longer than maybe I realize. Who would post wedding pictures.. but not include their husband in the picture???
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/07/15 04:31 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
I think you are definitely doing some aspects really well.... But this focus on what you think's best for her, and big relationship issues right now, are a worry.

You are trying to run before you can walk. None of those issues can be tackled now and you can resolve them later by following this program in recovery and learning to poja together. You can learn how to do poja on your end here and ensure you don't commit IB with the money. In the meantime you have more than enough to do by eliminating lovebusters, especially DJs. Which is always job#1.

Disrespect is the toughest one to learn.

Yeah it's sad you two didn't get to learn negotiationing skills about the budget before now. Sad you fell into the common pitfalls of kids come first, and I'll sacrifice for you. But that's not the job of the day. Job of the day is don't say DJs like "Gosh only 100pc access to all the money would satisfy you!"

Instead of, "yeah you should have a say 100pc of the time. That's totally understandable".

Eliminate lovebusters, meet needs, wait out the A. Thats it. Put the rest in a box with any expectations you have of her.

That requires patience and acceptance. It does not require you talking about what her best move is (but it might require you presenting yourself as such over time) or how to revolutionize her plans or relationship attitude overnight.


Originally Posted by typicalman
I can't teach her to manage the family finances overnight.


Just woefully disrespectful! You don't teach EVER, you poja.

Originally Posted by typicalman
. Financial support was NOT one of her top 5 emotional needs... and I am doing very well at meeting her top 3.. family support, conversation, admiration.


Anyone who is a full time parent/wants to return to study etc, has this need, however high up. It's not an intimate need but you'd notice the lack if you had it. Like with all needs it must be met cheerfully and enthusiastically to have any effect. When she says you were controlling the money what she means is she felt you gave her entitlement of funds in a grudging way and she didn't feel there was enthusiastic provision from you. Which I think you'd accept because you weren't happy, you were sacrificing.

You'd have the need yourself if you lost your job. You'd expect your wife to continue allowing you access to funds.

Think how you would feel if you were out of work, even for a short time, but this was used to express that you were undeserving of a say, or that you needed to be taught how to budget, simply because she had a job?

You've a long way to go with DJs. I'd listen to the radio every day if I were you. Avoid heavy life changing talks.

THANK YOU! this is great.. I was trying to do too much at once.

With regard to being out of work.. I personally could NEVER feel good about being dependent on someone else. In this way, I cannot relate at all to my wife. At a young age, I vowed to work hard and never be dependent. I would always have enough saved that even if i did lose my job, I would not be dependent. I could just never live that way. My mom made a comment to me..."I have never met someone as happy to be dependent on someone else as your wife"... she is just so different from me in this way, it will be hard for me to understand her perspective so I don't really put myself in her shoes... i just can't... I would never put myself in that situation.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/07/15 02:57 PM
In terms of having access to funds.. if I were to try to put myself in my wife's shoes, I would think the following:

My Husband is too controlling with all the money, this has been going on for a long time and he is a big Jerk. I've found this other guy who really seems to care about me more so eventually, I need to get away from this guy (my husband).

My first step will be to go back to work part time and start working on my skills.. eventually, I want to be independent and not living hand to mouth with this horrible jerk of a husband I have.

OK... now I have separated from my Husband... oh shoot.. I forgot about this part about supporting myself. We'll he has the kids, I'm alone in this apartment.. I'm going to go get whatever kind of job I can.. plus, it's boring just sitting at home all day doing nothing.

Did any of this happen???? NO!
My wife never even gave a thought about making herself independent so she could separate from me... instead, her strategy was to "play the victim" with her mom, so her mom basically paid her bills for her. She didn't try to get a job.. she went to the beach every day. A couple times, she got on an airplane, flew 200 miles, saw the kids for about 30 min.. then raided the house for more beach towels. I am completely serious... this is exactly what happened.

Can anyone really identify with my wife's behavior? This is why the Judge seemed annoyed with her when he asked her what she had been doing.. I think he basically shook his head.

Anyway.. the weekend ended good. I went to see her before I went to bed last night and we just chatted like friends. She did not bring up divorce or anything. I do think she is expecting me to just take care of it... but for now, I won't waist any more energy on the divorce.. just love bank deposits and love busters.

I wanted to ask about another love buster we have.. see next post
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/07/15 03:02 PM
The next love buster she complains about is angry outbursts... but this is tough.. let me explain.

She will be extremely harsh and abusive to me.. .eventually, I feel hurt and sad. My face might change. I might get quiet. I might leave and go to another room to just be sad and regain my composure.

She will say "are you done throwing your tantrum?".. .You are "passive aggressive"... "you need to say you are sorry for yelling at me"

The thing is.. I DIDN'T yell... I might have said please stop, or that hurts me... but I did not yell and I did not have a tantrum. I WAS JUST HURT BY HER! She cannot see the part where she hurt me she only sees the part where my happy disposition changes. She tells me that I am having an angry outburst or temper.

Does anyone know why she sees it that way? What am I doing wrong? How could I react better to the hurtful things she does and says?
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/07/15 03:23 PM
When she is being abusive, don't sit there and take it. Walk away immediately.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/07/15 03:30 PM
Your wife is the one who determines if you have angry outbursts, not you. So if she says you've had one, you need to take it seriously.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/07/15 03:34 PM
Quote
In terms of having access to funds.. if I were to try to put myself in my wife's shoes, I would think the following:
You did not marry you.
And, like it or not, financial support is a biggie for a majority of women (even those with careers of their own).
Don't judge her for that.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/07/15 03:37 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Your wife is the one who determines if you have angry outbursts, not you. So if she says you've had one, you need to take it seriously.

YES!!! so what do I do?

Walking away IS an angry outburst
being quiet is an angry outburst
telling her to please stop is an angry outburst

so, OK, I can no longer do any of these things.. but DO I do?

Should I take it with a smile?

Maybe after really being hurt... i will just say "my you look really nice today"... I have kinda tried that and she accuses me of being sarcastic..

Maybe I should just train myself to completely take it and have no reaction... "could you pass the potato chips?"

what do you think? what should I do????

When she really attacks me hard.. I feel that flight or fight response in my blood... I know that I need to take a deep breath, time out, etc... but I can't do any of these things without it being an angry outburst.. so WHAT DO I DO???

When she attacks me.. I usually don't say "please stop".. this typically happens when she is abusing the children and I feel the need to protect them.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/07/15 03:51 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
In terms of having access to funds.. if I were to try to put myself in my wife's shoes, I would think the following:
You did not marry you.
And, like it or not, financial support is a biggie for a majority of women (even those with careers of their own).
Don't judge her for that.

OK, but this is where we really get stuck.. the financial support need is really hard to meet without the POJA... without the POJA, I am in a NO WIN situation.. here is the conversation that we had;

a) I give her all the money, then we run out of money and the bills can't all get paid.. services get just off, checks bounce.. she is extremely upset and blames me.
b) if that happens, she will say.. i counted on YOU to protect us and manage this..
c) I say.. OK, I will protect us and manage the finances so we will be taken care of. In order to do that.. here is all we can afford this month for you to spend and I can get all the other bills paid
d) she says you are too controlling with the money.. I want all of it.
e) I say fine... you can have access to all the money, but lets do this together so that we can get everything paid. Lets pay our bills together. lets follow the POJA
f) She says.. .see you don't care about me.. you read about POJA in some stupid book...stop reading books and listen to me instead.
g) OK.. I will listen to you.. how would you like to manage it, please tell me what you think?
h) No, you just don't care about me.. we can't talk about this anymore.

This is how it goes... WHAT DO I DO???

Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/07/15 03:57 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
In terms of having access to funds.. if I were to try to put myself in my wife's shoes, I would think the following:
You did not marry you.
And, like it or not, financial support is a biggie for a majority of women (even those with careers of their own).
Don't judge her for that.

OK, but this is where we really get stuck.. the financial support need is really hard to meet without the POJA... without the POJA, I am in a NO WIN situation.. here is the conversation that we had;

a) I give her all the money, then we run out of money and the bills can't all get paid.. services get just off, checks bounce.. she is extremely upset and blames me.

Do you tell her ahead of time when the bills are due?
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/07/15 03:59 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
In terms of having access to funds.. if I were to try to put myself in my wife's shoes, I would think the following:
You did not marry you.
And, like it or not, financial support is a biggie for a majority of women (even those with careers of their own).
Don't judge her for that.

OK, but this is where we really get stuck.. the financial support need is really hard to meet without the POJA... without the POJA, I am in a NO WIN situation.. here is the conversation that we had;

a) I give her all the money, then we run out of money and the bills can't all get paid.. services get just off, checks bounce.. she is extremely upset and blames me.
b) if that happens, she will say.. i counted on YOU to protect us and manage this..
c) I say.. OK, I will protect us and manage the finances so we will be taken care of. In order to do that.. here is all we can afford this month for you to spend and I can get all the other bills paid
d) she says you are too controlling with the money.. I want all of it.
e) I say fine... you can have access to all the money, but lets do this together so that we can get everything paid. Lets pay our bills together. lets follow the POJA
f) She says.. .see you don't care about me.. you read about POJA in some stupid book...stop reading books and listen to me instead.
g) OK.. I will listen to you.. how would you like to manage it, please tell me what you think?
h) No, you just don't care about me.. we can't talk about this anymore.

This is how it goes... WHAT DO I DO???

I don't think you should talk to her about the policy of joint agreement. Just tell her when you don't want to do something. "I don't like that idea because we need $100 on the 15th for the electric bill." Then see how she responds.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/07/15 04:09 PM
OK... good idea. sometimes I tell her, I think that might not be a good idea because things are really tight this month because we have xyz bill due. She seems to react OK to that.

I think deep down, she really DOES want me to handle the finances and take care of her needs. I think this really comes down to her feeling really selfish right now and feeling she isn't getting her piece of the pie.

Thinking back on our relationship.. .she would write me notes on my birthday or fathers day always saying what a hard worker I was and how much she appreciates me for that and taking care of the family (I still have these notes). I was happy to provide for her because she appreciated it so much. Me meeting her need for financial support works just fine when her giver/taker are in balance...she would make my lunch for the next day, iron my shirts, rub my back etc... now that she has opposite sex friends, this affair, whatever.. only her taker comes out to play and nothing seems to be enough.

Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/07/15 04:16 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
In terms of having access to funds.. if I were to try to put myself in my wife's shoes, I would think the following:
You did not marry you.
And, like it or not, financial support is a biggie for a majority of women (even those with careers of their own).
Don't judge her for that.

OK, but this is where we really get stuck.. the financial support need is really hard to meet without the POJA... without the POJA, I am in a NO WIN situation.. here is the conversation that we had;

a) I give her all the money, then we run out of money and the bills can't all get paid.. services get just off, checks bounce.. she is extremely upset and blames me.

Do you tell her ahead of time when the bills are due?

Yes.. she understands the monthly bills, but she doesn't understand the bills that come once a year.. I would say we need to lay out all those things like our property tax bill, or HOA bill, or insurance premium and save each month so when those are due, we have the money to pay them. She would just say.. that is too complicated, I can only look at one month.

I said.. her is a solution... I will open another bank account, part of my paycheck will go in there each month so that the money will be there when these annual bills are due... then the rest of it, you can just manage month to month.

She says... that is silly... why do you need all these bank accounts.

Then, for some reason.. I just brought this up again the other day and she said.. that is a really good idea! I like it. Now that she thinks we are getting divorced.. my logic makes sense... when we are married is doesn't make sense.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/07/15 04:33 PM
All.. I know this is alot of posting.. but this is what is going to help save my marriage. In normal circumstances.. all this nuance is no big deal.. we would love eachother and these things would have little effect.. Now, everything is under the microscope. I think I'm not committing a love buster, but in her eyes I am and she is hyper sensitive to it because in her mind I am this horrible Jerk of a guy that she wants to divorce and she is looking to validate that feeling with everything I do.

Without your help, I would not know what I am doing wrong... and this is helping me so much to try to improve myself.
Posted By: Ron_C Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/07/15 08:08 PM
I want to make a suggestion here.

I have had a lot of questions why my WW is doing what she is doing and why.

On a whim I desided to get Doc Harley book "buyers renters and freeloaders" I just stated to listen to the book I am about chapter 3 now.

I tell you what alot of my questions are being answered and a clearer understand what's going on.

So plz get the book or audio book and give it a good read or listening, alot of your questions you have been asking I think will be answered.

Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/07/15 10:26 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Your wife is the one who determines if you have angry outbursts, not you. So if she says you've had one, you need to take it seriously.

I was thinking about this... I don't think you mean she decides if I had an angry outburst..really, she decides if she is hurt by my actions and I decide if I am hurt by her actions. Dr Harley is referring to angry outbursts as temporary insanity...momentary loss of control.. That is NOT what is happening now. It has happened in years past when I did not know how destructive it was... but I have eliminated that VERY easily. I found that I wasn't really losing my temper at those times.. I was just trying to get attention in a negative way.. but I was acting like a Jerk. It was easy for me to just stop it cold turkey. What she does now.. if I get quiet or something is to throw it back in my face "what are you going to do... ? Throw a tantrum like you did 5 years ago?"... it's like she taunts me with the past. It's very abusive to me the way she does that. She has even brought up an event 14 years old to throw back in my face. I wrote her a note recently telling her how hurt I felt when she those past mistakes in my face. I asked to please stick to issues at hand and also please tell me if I am doing anything at all to hurt her.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/07/15 11:12 PM
You are wrong. Prisca is correct. Angry outbursts punish your spouse for behaving differently than you desire. You dont have to yell and to have an angry outburst.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/07/15 11:15 PM
Please stick to the issues at hand = i dont have to address that and dont care how badly i behaved. Which is EXTREMELY DISRESPECTFUL.

You should have stated you are sorry you behaved that way in The past and you are learning that it is better to walk away than to hurt her/behave badly.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/07/15 11:16 PM
Originally Posted by apples123
You are wrong. Prisca is correct. Angry outbursts punish your spouse for behaving differently than you desire. You dont have to yell and to have an angry outburst.
That is definitely not what is happening.. in no way am I trying to punish her.. I am really just feeling hurt.

Regardless of what it is called... what do I do about it?
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/07/15 11:16 PM
Feeling hurt is not a reason to hurt your spouse.

Eta: would you accept that excuse from your kids? Of course not.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/07/15 11:24 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by Prisca
Your wife is the one who determines if you have angry outbursts, not you. So if she says you've had one, you need to take it seriously.

I was thinking about this... I don't think you mean she decides if I had an angry outburst..really, she decides if she is hurt by my actions and I decide if I am hurt by her actions.

I meant what I said, actually, and I'm just repeating what Dr. Harley says.

You would do well to stop debating and start learning.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/07/15 11:42 PM
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5006b_qa.html

You can call it hurt or frustrated or whatever, nothing makes it right.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/08/15 01:09 AM
I find it interesting that you have immediately discounted Prisca's advice each time she posted. She is a only regular poster who has a great deal in common with who you would like your wife to become. She is a SAHM who withdrew from an angry, disrespectful husband, who had an EA, who became a former WW in a very happy marriage. Were I you, I would listen to her carefully.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/08/15 01:40 AM
I am really at a loss here... being hurt, sad, quiet= angry outburst.. OK , if that is true, fine... BUT what do I do instead... that is what I keep asking... I don't know what to do.

I feel like I landed on another planet where I get yelled at, called names, and put down to the point where I go to another room and cry... but I still have an anger problem. I am completely defeated at this point.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/08/15 01:58 AM
Walking away is fine. assess yourself though, was your tone sharp, did you give a heavy sigh and shake your head, Did you stomp or close the door loudly?

My husband has never need yelling or names to express his anger. But he was still having an angry outburst.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/08/15 02:01 AM
Also,you are the one here. If your wife were here asking for advice, we would be just as tough with her. This is the future of your family you are trying to win. Don't leave any avenue for victory unexplored.

Having an unrepentant wayward for a grandparent is super gross.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/08/15 02:04 AM
Originally Posted by apples123
Also,you are the one here. If your wife were here asking for advice, we would be just as tough with her. This is the future of your family you are trying to win. Don't leave any avenue for victory unexplored.

Please help me.. my wife just put me down a second ago.. I just feel like I'm going to cry.. I am in another room so I don't cry on front of her, but I know she is mad at me for walking out. What can I do to prevent myself from feeling sad or hurt... how do I make all my emotions go away completely or not show it? or bottle it up?
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/08/15 02:20 AM
You can't make your emotions go away. Tell her you needed a break. Say it softly.

Eventually this won't hurt because you will either have a recovered marriage or be in Plan B/D.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/08/15 02:22 AM
Act on the plan you have, not on your emotions.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/08/15 02:28 AM
What do you say when you leave the room? It is okay to complain about your pain if you can do so respectfully and without outbursts. If you can calmly say that This conversation is hurting me. I need a time out, do it. Or you could say I don't like it when you call me 'x'.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/08/15 02:35 AM
She could also be trying to provoke a LoveBuster so she can justify her behavior. She wants you to be the bad guy. DO NOT FALL INTO THAT TRAP.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/08/15 02:37 AM
I don't say anything typically.. I just try to make a graceful exit... I may take a deep breath, or just look sad for a minute.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/08/15 02:41 AM
Do you think you can complain without lovebusting?
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/08/15 02:44 AM
Most women will find a straight walk-out (no segue) upsetting. They feel they are getting the silent treatment as a power play. If you can tell her you need a break from the conversation, it may help. But it is better to say nothing and walk than to lovebust.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/08/15 02:58 AM
Originally Posted by apples123
Most women will find a straight walk-out (no segue) upsetting. They feel they are getting the silent treatment as a power play. If you can tell her you need a break from the conversation, it may help. But it is better to say nothing and walk than to lovebust.

Yes, sometimes I make up an excuse, sometimes I say that I am hurt and just need a minute... but she does get angry if I am upset for any reason. It seems like she can say things very hurtful, but she is unaware that she is doing it... so if I get a little upset she gets offended because I should have no reason to be upset. She really seems to have no comprehension of how hurtful she can be. I have become much better at not taking it personally... but sometimes it just takes 5 seconds or up to 5 minutes to get over being hurt.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/08/15 03:06 AM
Then I have to suspect she wants to provoke a lovebuster. She needs you to be the bad guy otherwise; she is destroying her family for nothing.

Was she withdrawn before the affair? Dr. Harley says the way out of withdrawal is conflict. THis may also be a factor. Your plan A could be getting through.
It is too early to tell.

Keep reminding yourself this is for a season. Either your wife will return or you will sever all contact with the alien wayward. (Many people describe living with a wayward spouse is like living with an alien.)
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/08/15 11:03 AM
It really seemed that she was returning to conflict... but, if she is back in the conflict stage, why does she want divorce? If she really wants divorce... she would just be in withdrawal, I would think. Part of me is thinking she isn't really set on this divorce, but does want to provoke me so she can be more certain about it.

One thing is that I do think is that I have replaced angry outbursts with passive -aggressive SOME of the time. I really DON'T like passive agrees I've and I don't mean to be... but if I'm really being honest, I would say that I slip into that mode sometimes when I get really bothered by something. Once I catch myself, I stop it.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/08/15 11:11 AM
What do you mean by passive-aggressive? What particular actions?
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/08/15 11:37 AM
Originally Posted by apples123
What do you mean by passive-aggressive? What particular actions?
Hmmm... I might say something like... "I can see I'm not making you happy right now, so I'm going to go do something else for a little while".. usually it involves me giving myself a little time out.

If whatever I'm doing is wrong, if I knew exactly what I should do when I feel attacked, hurt, etc.. I could probably do that instead.. I just don't know what TO do. I definitely don't yell, name call, throw things, punch the wall etc... nothing like that. Usually, the time out works for me.. about 5 minutes... but it makes her mad. A few weeks ago, I was really attacked bad so I just asked one of my son's to go out for a bite to eat. We had some good father-son 1 on 1 time... but my wife said that it was a major tantrum because I went out without inviting her.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/08/15 12:18 PM
You should never tell her what she feels.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/08/15 12:19 PM
I know it's not right for me to have AOs so I stopped a long time ago, but Dr Harley was right in that we were both doing it... Her AO's..especially today really do sound like an insane person.. lots of yelling, pushing, feeling like a physical attack is about to happen... I'm not excusing anything I've done, but there is a history of that.. and she projects her behavior on me quite a bit.

She tells me her AO'S are OK because she is Irish and her mom did it... but it's not OK for me.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/08/15 12:23 PM
Originally Posted by apples123
You should never tell her what she feels.

Ok..but I'm still looking for the alternative. I have heard on this board and in books that I should validate her feelings... which is what I am really trying to do with that... but excuse myself so I can go heal myself.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/08/15 12:52 PM
Originally Posted by apples123
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5006b_qa.html

You can call it hurt or frustrated or whatever, nothing makes it right.

This article describes our past well. In all our discussions you can see, the problem of trying to make her happy leaves me very frustrated.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/08/15 01:32 PM
Look, this is really helpful... with the small love bank deposits I'm making, I can't afford to lose any through love busters and I'm finding out about love busters I didn't even know I was making... and she wants me to make them so she will try to provoke me at every turn. This is hard. I can't change things that happened 1 year ago or 10 years ago..only today.

I fell in love with my wife because she allowed me to have emotions.. I could be stressed, sad, mad, whatever, and she would say "it's ok, let me help you relax"..
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/08/15 01:46 PM
Telling her what she feels isnt validating. Validating is more like "I'm hearing that you are upset with because of x, am I understanding correctly?"

Also, the standard MB statement is validating."I'm sorry for the mistakes of the past and am willing to change to build a romantic, exclusive marriage which makes us both happy."
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/08/15 01:48 PM
Also, Indiegirl gave you some great tips a few pages ago for dealing with a wayward spouse. You should re-read that.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/08/15 01:48 PM
Originally Posted by apples123
Telling her what she feels isnt validating. Validating is more like "I'm hearing that you are upset with because of x, am I understanding correctly?"

Also, the standard MB statement is validating."I'm sorry for the mistakes of the past and am willing to change to build a romantic, exclusive marriage which makes us both happy."

Ok... I need to be asking the question. Got it. I can do that.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/08/15 03:41 PM
If your wife says she feels hurt, then your reaction is punishing her, which is a lovebuster. Any very moody reaction will hurt a spouse.

It's tricky with a lovebusting wayward not to lovebust back. You need a great poker face. The best tip I can give you is to never really listen or absorb wayward speak. Just half listen and tap in when required.
It's fine to say something hurts you if you can do it without emotional overtones.

ADs help.

Respond to the complaint about not inviting her somewhere. Go out and buy her a treat instead while you cool off.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/08/15 04:17 PM
Awesome... thanks. Next time I need to cool off, I'll just go buy her flowers instead.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/08/15 04:21 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by apples123
What do you mean by passive-aggressive? What particular actions?
Hmmm... I might say something like... "I can see I'm not making you happy right now, so I'm going to go do something else for a little while".. usually it involves me giving myself a little time out.

If whatever I'm doing is wrong, if I knew exactly what I should do when I feel attacked, hurt, etc.. I could probably do that instead.. I just don't know what TO do. I definitely don't yell, name call, throw things, punch the wall etc... nothing like that. Usually, the time out works for me.. about 5 minutes... but it makes her mad. A few weeks ago, I was really attacked bad so I just asked one of my son's to go out for a bite to eat. We had some good father-son 1 on 1 time... but my wife said that it was a major tantrum because I went out without inviting her.

If you want to avoid being accused of an an AO:

1. SHUT UP. Do not say a single thing to her.
2. Keep your face calm and serene -- do not make faces, roll eyes, look hurt, look upset, etc ...
3. Slowly, calmly, walk away. If you close doors, do so slowly and calmly. Do not make any sudden movements, which could be interpreted as anger.

If you really are not having angry outbursts, they won't be that difficult to stop. If she complains about AOs on your part, tell her calmly and matter-of-factly that you are committed to never having one again. Tell her you will protect her.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/08/15 04:35 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by apples123
What do you mean by passive-aggressive? What particular actions?
Hmmm... I might say something like... "I can see I'm not making you happy right now, so I'm going to go do something else for a little while".. usually it involves me giving myself a little time out.

If whatever I'm doing is wrong, if I knew exactly what I should do when I feel attacked, hurt, etc.. I could probably do that instead.. I just don't know what TO do. I definitely don't yell, name call, throw things, punch the wall etc... nothing like that. Usually, the time out works for me.. about 5 minutes... but it makes her mad. A few weeks ago, I was really attacked bad so I just asked one of my son's to go out for a bite to eat. We had some good father-son 1 on 1 time... but my wife said that it was a major tantrum because I went out without inviting her.

If you want to avoid being accused of an an AO:

1. SHUT UP. Do not say a single thing to her.
2. Keep your face calm and serene -- do not make faces, roll eyes, look hurt, look upset, etc ...
3. Slowly, calmly, walk away. If you close doors, do so slowly and calmly. Do not make any sudden movements, which could be interpreted as anger.

If you really are not having angry outbursts, they won't be that difficult to stop. If she complains about AOs on your part, tell her calmly and matter-of-factly that you are committed to never having one again. Tell her you will protect her.


I hear you, but I am struggling... we are always together... so if she even finds me in a room by myself, she will get offended... why are you in this room? Why are you not with the family? When you are done with your tantrum come back and clean your crap off the table... I can sneak out, but she notices that I am missing and that offends her.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/08/15 06:11 PM
One of the things Dr Harley said occurred to me... "she does not see my pain and suffering, she only sees her own pain and suffering"... so to take that idea further, i think what may be going on is that she has no ability to see how hurtful her wayward behavior actually is.. so when I act "hurt"... it is offensive because she has no empathy for it. In normal circumstances one would not be offended if someone needed a moment to themselves etc.. but I do not have the "right" to my own feeling now because all she can experience is her own feelings. I need to do your suggestion... half listen or train myself to not react at all.

I think the divorce is the other love buster going on. I have not heard back from Dr. Harley, so I basically sent my attorney a note saying:

Although my wife is not cooperating with trying to rebuild our marriage, I am trying to win her back. Please request to the other side that we withdraw our respective potions for divorce. If they refuse please ask that we both agree to suspend our petition. Please be prepared to protect me by all means possible in the event that they refuse and push forward with this divorce.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/10/15 02:20 PM
OK.. here is a bit of an update.
I think I am making some progress with my reactions; I have handled a couple situations recently without emotional reaction and simply asking her how I can better help her solve her problem and make her happy... last night when I got home from work she actually apologized for some of her rude behavior earlier in the morning. I get about 1 apology every couple years from this woman, so that is a big deal.

I have done alot of work on the disrespect and reactions (AO's).. I can also see now with respect to spending 15 hours/week I was making demands and she clearly wouldn't do it.

As of last night, she actually sat down on the couch next to me which she usually doesn't do. She will not go out with me, but I do keep suggesting, and I am making some notes about movies she wants to see so when they come out I can ask her to go.

So.. the 1 on 1 time I do get with her is at night after the kids are in bed and she usually wants to watch TV. I think she likes having me there to watch with her and chat during the commercial.

The question is now, how can I best make use of this time to make love bank deposits? Her top emotional needs are
Family commitment, Open and Honesty, Intimate Conversation, Admiration, Affection. I think that the Family commitment one I am doing pretty well.

She has not mentioned the divorce again in the last week.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/10/15 03:06 PM
I just wanted to say WOW... I was reading the wifedivorcing thread, I am less than half way through, but my WW's script and her families is EXACTLY the same...it's as if our WWs are the same person.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/10/15 03:58 PM
The more wayward fog-babble you read; the more you know/expect the script; the less seriously you take the lovebusters and can remain calm and not lovebust back.

Did you notice how WD was able to hold himself above the lovebusting and model great behaviour because he had a plan?



Posted By: indiegirl Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/10/15 04:13 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
OK.. here is a bit of an update.
I think I am making some progress with my reactions; I have handled a couple situations recently without emotional reaction and simply asking her how I can better help her solve her problem and make her happy... last night when I got home from work she actually apologized for some of her rude behavior earlier in the morning. I get about 1 apology every couple years from this woman, so that is a big deal.

I have done alot of work on the disrespect and reactions (AO's).. I can also see now with respect to spending 15 hours/week I was making demands and she clearly wouldn't do it.

As of last night, she actually sat down on the couch next to me which she usually doesn't do. She will not go out with me, but I do keep suggesting, and I am making some notes about movies she wants to see so when they come out I can ask her to go.

So.. the 1 on 1 time I do get with her is at night after the kids are in bed and she usually wants to watch TV. I think she likes having me there to watch with her and chat during the commercial.

The question is now, how can I best make use of this time to make love bank deposits? Her top emotional needs are
Family commitment, Open and Honesty, Intimate Conversation, Admiration, Affection. I think that the Family commitment one I am doing pretty well..


You can't really make deposits when the A is in full flow. You can only really offer to, show an interest, and generally be a safe/appealing place for her to get her needs from when she is ready.

For example watching movies together is not really UA time, but it's a nice, enjoyable conflict free space in which a need for more time with you might grow from.

I think being a good listener and showing interest in movies she wants to see are all excellent starts.

If I were you I would just start doing things/ saying things that 'paint a picture' of a life with you. Houses in the area she wants to live, 'remember when; love to do that again' conversation. Showing you care about what she wants in life.

If you can stop lovebusting her these things will show a huge effect.

As WWs go she's pretty clingy. I thought she was trying to pen you in the room to abuse you but really I think she has quite a significant attachment to you, wnats to be assured of your commitment to her and the family and generally just wants a lot from you (and she asks in the wrong way).

I know you don't think so but she definitely has a significant need for FS, I would say. She made a special point of appreciating you as a provider in the early days and even with a low lovebank/affair she wants to be assured of your continuing ability to be there for her in some capacity. I think even if she were to ever want a job, she would want to know you are the one looking after the family financially in the main. I think it's particularly telling that she wants you to do the nitty gritty when it comes to paying the bills, but after consultation with her.

Keep in mind that wayward moods move with the wind. Unexpectedly.

Originally Posted by typicalman
She has not mentioned the divorce again in the last week.


Forgive me if I am forgetting but did she ever actually file or do anything about this for herself? Or is it just something she wants to talk about?

Most waywards like to talk divorce ENDLESSLY but the paperwork itself is too much effort (particularly since your wife doesn't like to pay bills). They tend to want the BS to do the paperwork while reassuring them of endless financial/family support and holding their hand.

If you yourself communicate divorce talk is heartbreaking and you won't do it, that's probably where it will end.

Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/10/15 06:14 PM
Ok, yes. She expects a lot from me and she makes it clear that if I do not do what she wants and the way she wants it, she will punish me.

The OM and her fimily are far away... so she needs me for the family comment, and even if she were to work full time she will still need my FS for the kids.



On the divorce, here is what happened... I sued her and her attorney counter sued me. I needed to file given that she left the state with the children. I have done the bulk of the legal work.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/10/15 07:21 PM
I also really think the affair is pretty much dead... but why would she give up all contact if she doesn't have to? She will have someone waiting in the wings when she needs him so there is no reason on Earth to give that up.

After she was struggling with the kids... I said "sorry the kids have given you so much trouble tonight" she said "yeah.. you have alot to be sorry about" I think she will not let love units get through possibly because she blames me for everything and I must be punished. Not doing something I want her to do (i.e. spend time together), is a great way to punish me.

She also says that "love is blind" so she has felt that she has made a horrible mistake being with me all these years because she was "in love".. she does not want to be in love with me because that would make her vulnerable to my horrible mis-treatment of her.. so she may be trying to protect herself.

It's hard to figure out exactly the reason why she is so guarded on one hand with her love bank, but also so attached to me on the other hand when it comes to doing things for her and the children.

I am looking for ways to "sneak in" love deposits.. strike up conversations and empathize with her in regard to the troubles she is facing in her day.

I assume that I should be doing this.. Should I buy her flowers? get her something nice for Christmas? or is that just a waited effort?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/10/15 09:59 PM
No make as many gestures as humanly possible. She will scowl, but you just have to have faith that those little pebbles are stacking up under the water into a land bridge. If you read some plan A threads, you will see how consistently this happens. It's why affairs happen actually: if someone makes consistent love bank deposits we are powerless to resist them.

Originally Posted by typicalman
She also says that "love is blind" so she has felt that she has made a horrible mistake being with me all these years because she was "in love".. she does not want to be in love with me because that would make her vulnerable to my horrible mis-treatment of her.. so she may be trying to protect herself.


She's right, we are willing to suffer when we are in love; as a plan Aer you know this too well.

It's an annoying fact of life, but people leave their love bank doors wide open to a loser affair partner, because they don't think it's ever possible they will ever effect them that much. Hence the common phenomenon of 'affairing down'.

With a spouse, withdrawn people are much more guarded. They know it is entirely possible to fall back into love and into the most painful part of conflict, to boot.

Not that it makes any difference, it just slows down the wooing process, it can't stop it.

Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/10/15 10:59 PM
Ok... so for plan A... I am thinking of the BIG effort on love busters.... I'm moving down the list to annoying habits and answering her honestly when she interrogates me about everything I do... then focusing on responding with kindness to her abuse. Then, I try to be around and listen when she might need someone to talk to. I buy her little things, coffee, a dinner out here and there. I was going to refrain from going wild on Christmas gifts for her.... but I was thinking of a family gift... something for the house that says we are a family and I'm not planning to go anywhere. I will have a couple days off after the new year.. and the kids will be in school, so I'll have a list of movies that she wants to see which are not rated for the kids and I'll say let's go. Movies and TV aren't good ways for UA... but, I think she feels safe with that buffer. Any other ideas?

My lawyer is trying to cancel the divorce... any idea what I should say or do when she pushes back?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/10/15 11:13 PM
I'd get her out to see the movie, but try and do it at a time she'll be hungry/want coffee and woopsie look - we just so happen to be walking/driving past your favourite place!

I don't think she'd agree to a formal date but she might just go for something like that. If you tempt her often enough she'll bite sometime.

Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/11/15 01:39 PM
Should I be wearing a wedding ring? She claims to have pawned hers. She says that I was mean and bought her a ring that she never liked. It was just a simple gold band with some small diamonds in it. I know it's an odd question but I don't know what to do knowing her ring is gone.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/11/15 04:33 PM
You are married. Yes.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/11/15 04:33 PM
Does she want a new one?
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/11/15 04:48 PM
many weeks ago, she said that she would wear an old ring that she used to wear when we were engaged... some of the stones had fallen off though, so I took it to the jeweler and had the stones replaced... she said that she did not like the new stones, so I have been back to the jeweler sever times and they just don't seem to be able to do anything to make her happy... I have picked up ring after one more round of modification but have not given it to her in fear that she will just reject it again. I also got her a new "plain" wedding band but also have not given it to her.

My feeling now that she asked for divorce (about a week ago), there is no point in bringing up the ring discussion. I suppose that if I gave her the rings, it would simply be her choice to wear them or not wear them at this point.... I just highly doubt that she will.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/11/15 04:51 PM
Why can't she have a new ring she actually likes?
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/11/15 04:53 PM
Off topic, but important...make sure you have rock solid EPs in place. You are very vulnerable right now.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/11/15 06:07 PM
I offered her whatever she wanted...even to come in and have her ring custom designed. She said she wanted the old one, but every time she just makes a reason why she is not happy with it.

If she would go to the jewelry store and pick out something she would want to wear no matter what the cost, it would make me the happiest man in the world.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/11/15 06:09 PM
Originally Posted by apples123
Off topic, but important...make sure you have rock solid EPs in place. You are very vulnerable right now.

For me, I am with her almost every free moment... I am very vulnerable... I hang out with male friends from church if I go out.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/11/15 06:35 PM
Make sure you avoid woman at work as well. That listening ear by the coffee pot or even just pleasant work lunch can cause great harm.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/11/15 08:10 PM
Her lawyer is wanting to talk division of property. I think I'm in a legal mess right now because of our deadline coming up for a divorce trial in just weeks. Not much has been prepared for it (I have sued and she has countersued) I'm panicking now wondering how to get out of this thing.
Posted By: LearnedTooLate Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/11/15 09:09 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Her lawyer is wanting to talk division of property. I think I'm in a legal mess right now because of our deadline coming up for a divorce trial in just weeks. Not much has been prepared for it (I have sued and she has countersued) I'm panicking now wondering how to get out of this thing.

Quit panicking!!!

You already requested your lawyer to see about suspending or delaying the current divorce hearing.

That's all that you can do, except for to contact Him and see if he has followed through with the opposing attorney or not and check on that status.

Nothing you panic or worry about will change that, Period.

You are an emotional basket case, which is understandable under the circumstances, especially regarding her previously taking the children out of state from you.

BUT..... There us Nothing that panicking can do about the situation. Be content that you are doint everything that you can do and keep on improving.

One point I would like to make as an observat, is the manner that you have consistently described your Wife throughout this entire thread is Full of Lovebusters, anx whether you agree and admit it or not, even if you do not tell her these things you have said here, your silent body language and demeanor must shine through to her and she probably picks up on that.

You should try to embrace the positive aspects only about her, so that your contacts with her remain upbeat and leave her feeling positive about how you truly feel about her.

LTL
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/11/15 09:35 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Her lawyer is wanting to talk division of property. I think I'm in a legal mess right now because of our deadline coming up for a divorce trial in just weeks. Not much has been prepared for it (I have sued and she has countersued) I'm panicking now wondering how to get out of this thing.


Just instruct your lawyer to delay.

Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/11/15 09:43 PM
I am instructing my lawyer to delay.. but she is saying "your wife wants divorce so you have to do it.. she needs to also agree"

My WW has done such terrible things avoiding all love busters has been hard. I have bitten my tongue so many times, but of course some slips out.

I am feeling that if I am forced into a divorce negotiation now, things are going to get ugly because my WW can be so unreasonable.. Hence I am panicking. I need more time and the stress of this divorce on top of everything else with plan A almost becomes unbearable.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/11/15 09:50 PM
So why can't she and her attorney propose a settlement? You don't ha e to push forward. Why should you do the work for them?
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/11/15 09:52 PM
Dr. Harley did mention you could continue to Plan A after the divorce so don't panic. If your attorney is pushing you, remind her she works for you.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/11/15 09:53 PM
What happens if you get to January and the division of property is not completed? Has your attorney addressed this?
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/11/15 09:58 PM
Originally Posted by apples123
Dr. Harley did mention you could continue to Plan A after the divorce so don't panic. If your attorney is pushing you, remind her she works for you.

I agree, but I'm afraid of getting into a big fight over the divorce which we will not be able to recover from.

I would rather have a separation or something like that where we can both agree on something versus the drag out fight we are going to have.

My wife has negligible income and is not entitled to alimony.. so for her to be on her own in a couple months just doesn't work unless she gets me to agree to support her which I won't do.. .it then gets ugly. Her next move is to fight for the children in effort to get child support which would really be supporting her... and I don't want to give up the children... although I would agree to shared custody.

She told me that she intends to stay home with the children after divorce which is completely unrealistic.

You can see how this turns into a mess quickly.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/11/15 10:16 PM
So so so not a problem.

You are a plan Aer. Which means you don't fight. Which means no fight. She can fight all she likes. Waywards di that dontcha know.

As for cooperation with a separation, I wouldn't. It's not really plan A to prop up the idea that you're a pal who doesn't love them will she return to the 'sorry I lost you' guy or the 'it's no big deal' guy.

In a divorce you can safeguard the cash, and prevent her spending it before any recovery happens.

Or you could just ask her to give you a few months before pushing ahead to deal with your heartbreak first. She s in no hurry to do paperwork.

Can you get some ADs? Most people need them. You need a level head, not a reactive one.

You react to her too much instead of sticking to your own plan.

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/11/15 10:18 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
She told me that she intends to stay home with the children after divorce which is completely unrealistic.


"Yes dear, you are a wonderful mother. Would you like some tea? You are so pretty today." Then go and have some pie.

If it's not on paper, it's not real. Even then it's just paper!

Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/11/15 10:47 PM
OK... I am probably over-reacting. I am scared to death of going to court unprepared and losing the children and much more. I need to be on control of the situation to keep the house for the kids and that sort of thing (because the money for our house came from me per-marriage) but If I don't fight, they'll just split it 50/50. I think that probably, this will ultimately get delayed.. but I need to stay out of the fight for plan A to work... my lawyer is asking me to go back and negotiate with my WW to cancel the divorce but I know that any discussion about it now will not end up well. I need to focus on plan A.

I do really panic mostly because she has done crazy things so far with respect to taking the kids away and she has high expectations for financial support if we divorce. How can I protect myself and plan A at the same time.

Also, in this state.. If another year goes by and she decides to sue me for divorce, she will be able to seek alimony for a certain number of years.. up to 5 I think. If she divorces me now instead of then.. in a way, she is doing me a big favor.. on the other hand, I am pretty confident that i can get really good at plan A given enough time.. it just takes me time to get used to all the put-downs and constant hurt but stay cheerful and fun at the same time. It's not easy... it's really hard infact, but I am getting better every day. My recovery time gets shorter every time.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/12/15 11:27 AM
You need a lawyer who understands conflict divorce and doesn't expect you to do his job and negotiate terms at home.

Tell your lawyer what to do, not vice versa. He is to delay as much as possible and he is to get you as much as possible if it comes to a D.

You are not to discuss anything with your wife and if she raises it just say you'd love to fire your lawyer and recover instead of a divorce. Just say you can't discuss the divorce because it's too heartbreaing. Let the lawyers explain the reality of divorce to her (if she can be bothered picking up the phone). Let them be the bad guys.

An important part of plan A is to let reality hit them hard - but it comes from external sources like exposure or lawyers or conflict in the A.

Even though you have caused these things, her unconscious love bank only associates your direct words and actions with you.

Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/12/15 12:25 PM
OK.. I know what to do. With the divorce pending, I need to step up and have a flawless plan A.

Today, she wants to take the kids to a work christmas party without me. My inclination is to simply say that "I would prefer something that we could do together, but if not, the kids have asked me to take them shopping (for you) so I'd rather do that with them. You, of course are free to do whatever you want"

My entire support structure wants me to be divorced. My councilor wants me to be divorced. This forum is the only place I am getting any support to try to save this marriage.

Any help on the right "plan A" thing to say about this event today would be appreciated.

Last night, there was a dentist bill for about $45 that she opened and she started screaming because they did not send enough detail. I said " you are too beautiful and nice to be worried about bills, just leave it on my desk and I will take care of it" she just continued on her outburst... not much else I could do.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/12/15 02:15 PM
She brought up the divorce this morning. I told her that I see no where we can meet in the middle, I told my lawyer to cancel it... if she didn't, it was not my fault. I told her I am simply not going forward. If she wants to sue me and write up the proposals, then that his her perogative.

I gave her a hug. She tried to say to me "don't you deserve better than me... a nice Texas girl with big boobs... you know that you can do better than what I am giving you".... it was hard to argue with her because she has been a horrible wife for the last year. I just said no... let's just go get ready for the parade and have a great weekend.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/12/15 02:44 PM
Sounds good
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/12/15 07:42 PM
I came to work with her... I was going to do some shopping while she went to the party... I have not seen her so mad in a while. Something definitely wrong here. She mentioned that she told everyone here we were getting divorced so that could be it...in that I'd ruin the victim treatment she is getting, or, it could be that she does not want me meeting the women here... but she is really mad. I'm going to hand around and see what happens.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/12/15 09:37 PM
OK...nothing happened... I just consider it more wayward outbursts. I think she is on edge today because I won't make this divorce easy on her. Her fuse is about 1mm long. She asked me to take the kids and not come home..

Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/22/15 04:04 AM
OK.. sorry I have asked this question before on plan A... but I'm really trying to do a good plan A but my WS is now totally taking advantage of me. I gave her all the money she asked for at the beginning of the month and now she is asking me to buy her gas, groceries, everything. She asks me come along whenever she needs something bought for her (clothes, gifts, you name it), the car filled up, or she doesn't want to cook so I take her out to dinner but otherwise she tries not to include me. What do I do now? I need to avoid fights at all cost, but I'm totally being taken advantage of. I basically taking money from my retirement account to pay for all she is asking for. Any idea how I can stay in plan A?

I bought a new truck last year and she decided to just take it from me and doesn't let me drive it. Her car hasn't been driven in about 8 months and she makes me pay the insurance and registration on it as well. The truck needs some repairs and she is riding me to get it done ASAP. Again, I'm feeling totally taken advantage of. Basically, all I asked her was to park in the driveway for a couple days instead of the garage while there was a small fluid leak. She said "what kind of man makes a woman park on the driveway?, fix it NOW!"

It getting quite blatant how manipulative this is getting. She did read one of Dr Harley's books so she is aware of plan A.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/22/15 10:16 AM

I dont know where either one of you got the idea that plan a looked like that.

Plan A doesn't involve handing over all your cash on demand, you decide in advance how much money (or anything) you want to use to 'prime the pump' and stick to it. A wayward will run through funds like a scythe through wheat. Besides it's unattractive to respond like a doormat. You don't behave in the way the wayward bids, you behauve in a way a REASONABLE spouse would want. That does leave some requests refused.

The emotional need for FS involves long term financial planning and security too, it does not mean handing everything over for a spending spree right now.



Originally Posted by typicalman
she makes me.


You are a grown man!

I read on another thread you are beginning to hate her. If you can't stop this capitulation and resentment you will end up fighting with her. Plus, by the time you've won her you won't want her.

Can you work an assertive plan A so there's less to resent and you don't hate her?

Or do you need plan b to protect your own love bank?

If you are considering plan b I'd email Dr H about it.


Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/22/15 12:16 PM
Perhaps a scaricity budget method would work best right now. You pay everything, including retirement and savings, as soon as the money comes in. What's left in the account is all for spending. Don't give away the farm. That was never plan A.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/22/15 01:00 PM
Yes... I'm in a difficult situation.

She is blatantly taking advantage of me, running the family into the ground, being extremely demanding, and extremely dishonest. I am actually starting to believe that she is possessed by Satin. I am getting to the point of hating her and my instinct wants me to fight but my intelligence overrides it.

I need to start saying simply "we can't afford it" etc.. and be logical. I want to do that without withdrawing love units. I was thinking that when I am with her and pay for stuff it deposits love units.. when I am not with her and she is broke it doesn't withdraw because it will not be associated with me.

She is very manipulative though. Now, I am in the situation where I gave her LOTS of money to buy food... it's all gone and she didn't buy any food... but now the kids need to eat so I have to either go shopping or give her more. With her car bills and insurance...she follows me around with the bill or keeps me awake at night until I pay it. She literately forces me. If I still don't.. she will take my checks or debit card. She won't actually forge my signature, but she'll take my debit card and use it online to pay if she has to.

I asked her where all the money went and she said "to buy presents"... I said, we did all the shopping together and we used my debit card. She spent $1,000's apparently on top of that which is impossible. I'm not a fool and I know that the reality is that she has the other apartment still and that is where the money is most likely going.
Posted By: NebDane Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/22/15 01:17 PM
What are you doing? One of the first rules of dealing with a wayward is to NEVER give them money!!!! Plan A is not about financial irresponsibility or bankruptcy, ever. Plan A is not about financially supporting the wayward behavior (other apartment, OM, etc).

I agree with indie, you are a grown man grow a pair and regain control. My god, she takes your keys, takes your check and debit card and spits in your face.

Regain financial control, NOW. If you have to set up a different account and pay all bills through that and leave XX dollars in your other account for her.

Waywards have no concern for financial matters, NONE.

AND GET YOUR TRUCK BACK!!!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/22/15 02:34 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
She is blatantly taking advantage of me, running the family into the ground, being extremely demanding, and extremely dishonest. I am actually starting to believe that she is possessed by Satin. .


She is. Her and every other wayward. That is to be expected.

Originally Posted by typicalman
I need to start saying simply "we can't afford it" etc.. and be logical. I want to do that without withdrawing love units.


Saying no does not withdraw units. In fact women in particular despise automatic capitulation, they see it as weak and fraudulent. Even non wayward women will take whatever capitulation is on offer, but they will be well aware of a lack of enthusiasm, self control and know it's just short term buttering up.


That does not meet the need in any worthwhile way.


Originally Posted by typicalman
. With her car bills and insurance...she follows me around with the bill or keeps me awake at night until I pay it. She literately forces me.


The word you are looking for is no. Not 'we can't afford it' but no. Say you wont stand for this behaviour and that you'll die of sleep deprivation before rewarding it.





Posted By: indiegirl Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/22/15 02:39 PM
.

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
Giving your wife whatever she wants isn't the way to make her happy. Since you are now partners in life, and everything you do will affect each other, what you do for her must make you happy, too. Otherwise, she will feel unfulfilled and frustrated with your reluctant efforts.


Here:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8122_wife.html

Posted By: zibbles Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/22/15 03:50 PM
Many veteran posters here have advised you to put your energy and resources into a divorce and custody of your children and yet you insist on vacillating in an in-between zone where nothing gets resolved. Now she WANTS a divorce. Why you aren't capitalizing on her willingness to separate is a mystery to those of us who've followed you from your previous thread where your wife kidnapped the children and disappeared for months. I think you need to reevaluate here and strongly consider the benefit of moving on.
Posted By: axslinger85 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/22/15 07:15 PM
I'm with zibbles here.

You are dealing with someone who is already proven to be dangerous to your children (basically abducting them from the only sane parent they have) and is obviously continuing to be dishonest with you.

Either get your wits about you and learn to Plan A without giving away the farm, or file for divorce. It's not just you but your children in the balance.

I'd rather see you move on from someone who may not ever come around than watch her clean you out while you pursue a very misguided concept of Plan A.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/22/15 07:41 PM
I completely agree with all of this. I met with several lawyers and they all say the same thing... in my state, the women get the kids.. end of story. They will overlook all her erratic behavior because she is the mom. I can continue to fight her in court but we are simply out of money.

This leaves me with little choice but to stay in plan A as long as possible before I would have to leave her (and the kids).

Let me ask this question though... if all this is wayward behavior, she will eventually come out of it. Dr Harley says that affairs die a natural death and wayward FOG always goes away eventually. This can't possibly go on forever, can it?

I will put financial controls in place... I am very confused about what makes deposits and withdrawals.. putting her on a strict allowance versus giving her all the freedom she wants.
Posted By: zibbles Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/22/15 07:46 PM
Is this really your game plan? You haven't even truly investigated a divorce. You have the resources to get great legal representation. She's WILLING to divorce you now (which was previously an excuse). IMO you are not going to win this lady back but instead are signing up to witness her abuse of your children and her continuing abuse of you. You'll notice several posters quit posting here. They've given up on you because you insist on doing things your own way. Good luck. I think you're going to need it.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/22/15 08:05 PM
It's very easy. Lovebusters make withdrawals and enthusiastic needs-meeting makes deposits.

If you are avoiding angry outbursts, disrespectful judgements and independent behaviour then you aren't making any withdrawals. Saying 'no' cheerfully and assertively doesn't come under any of those categories. If you say no angrily, then that's a LB. If you tell her she is a crazy spendthrift and you know better than she does, then that's disrespectful and is a lovebuster. Saying you are going to spend the money on something better is IB. Saying you simply don't want to give her some money is not a love buster.

Meeting needs makes deposits. But needs must be met enthusiastically and with a cheerful, unfaked enthusiasm in order to hit the mark.

In the current situation you aren't meeting needs at all. You are simply hunkering down and avoiding conflict which she knows too well. That is not needs meeting. She knows that she can bully you and get whatever she wants which means she has you pegged in a corner where it is impossible for you to 'give' her anything. She is simply taking, which blocks you from giving. She is blocking you from taking charge, appearing enthusiastic and generous and voluntarily meeting her needs.

Anything that goes against your own enthusiasm is anti-poja. "Never do anything without enthusiastic approval" means sticking to your own guns too - It's not enough for you to end your own independent choices, you must also stand up to hers.

Have you actually read up on what Plan A consists of? Nowhere does it say "Do as you are told" Dr Harley repeatedly tells people to NEVER do that!

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments, and selfish demands. These three Love Busters not only ruin any effort to reach a negotiated settlement, but they also make the betrayed spouse much less attractive to the wayward spouse. Instead of encouraging total separation from the lover, the anger, disrespect and demands of the betrayed spouse make the lover appear to be the only one who truly cares about the wayward spouse. They literally throw the wayward spouse into the arms of the lover.

On the other hand, if the betrayed spouse approaches the wayward spouse with respect and thoughtfulness, the cruelty and self-indulgence of the affair is much easier for the wayward spouse to understand. And once the wayward spouse's mistake is acknowledged, it's much easier for him or her to take the first step toward recovery by agreeing to never see or talk to the lover again.

In these negotiations for total separation, the causes of the affair should be addressed. Since one of these causes is usually unfulfilled emotional needs, the betrayed spouse should express a willingness to meet those needs after the affair has ended. Another common cause is a wayward spouse's failure to take the betrayed spouse's feelings into account. The betrayed spouse's inconsiderate behavior sometimes leads the wayward spouse to believe that he or she has the right to return thoughtlessness with thoughtlessness by having an affair. Willingness of the betrayed spouse to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement (Never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse) helps identify and prevent instances of thoughtlessness.

A third possible cause of an affair is a lifestyle where spouses spend much of their leisure time apart from each other, and form leisure-time friendships with those of the opposite sex. A plan to avoid being away from each other overnight and making each other favorite leisure-time companions goes a long way toward creating a passionate marriage that is essentially affair-proof.

In general, a betrayed spouse's effort to encourage the wayward spouse to end the affair should address all the root causes of the affair, and offer a solid plan for marital recovery. It should not be one-sided, however. The plan should make the wayward spouse and the betrayed spouse equally responsible for following the overall plan.

.




Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/22/15 09:04 PM
Yes.. I get it. I should do things that make me happy to give. It's the part about avoiding fights that I am worried about if I say no... even if I say no respectfully it will lead to a fight.

To all the other posters.. I talked to Dr Harley. I sent him 6 pages of all the gory details of what she has done. He recommended plan A as long as I can hold out. He also recommended that given the age of my children, if I could hold out 5 years for them, that would be best.

I have talked to several lawyers... no matter how good they are or how much I spend, they tell me the outcome is the same... mom gets the children no matter what.
Posted By: NebDane Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/22/15 09:36 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
I have talked to several lawyers... no matter how good they are or how much I spend, they tell me the outcome is the same... mom gets the children no matter what.

I find this very hard to believe considering what she has already done. Yes, in most states it is biased toward the woman for custody, but you appear to be giving up.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/22/15 09:48 PM
Originally Posted by NebDane
Originally Posted by typicalman
I have talked to several lawyers... no matter how good they are or how much I spend, they tell me the outcome is the same... mom gets the children no matter what.

I find this very hard to believe considering what she has already done. Yes, in most states it is biased toward the woman for custody, but you appear to be giving up.

I too am beside myself that these lawyers aren't even willing to fight for me and they are very upfront about the sexual bias. I want to give plan A my best possible effort so at least I know I have done everything I possibly could to save out marriage and for the kids.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/22/15 10:01 PM
"Abduction" would be a hard sell in court. An abusive husband would, in this case, be an easy sell in court. Also, removing children from the care of the primarily responsible parent (SAHM) in the absence of physical abuse is nearly impossible.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/22/15 10:40 PM
Somethings for you to do... Pull her credit report, see where the money is going.

Stop giving her cash. If you are paying for the affair phone, cancel it. Lock your debit card up at night.

Remember...Plan A is strong, not afraid.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/22/15 10:44 PM
Have you looked at Dream Homes in your previous area as Indiegirl recommended? If you moved there and Plan A became PlanD, would the custody laws be more favorable to you in that state?
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/22/15 10:53 PM
Im not sure what the big deal about the truck is. Why cant you drive her car? Was the purchase of the truck before or after she left? Was it independent behavior?
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/23/15 12:14 AM
Originally Posted by apples123
Im not sure what the big deal about the truck is. Why cant you drive her car? Was the purchase of the truck before or after she left? Was it independent behavior?

No it was not IB. I took her to look at it, I made it a joint decision, and I put her name on it as well so she would feel part of it even though the old truck was mine before marriage. I told her that if she needed to go big grocery or had any other need for the cargo space she can feel free to take it just like my old truck. This was just pure selfishness that she took it as hers and it was about the time the affair started.

I have another old beater car that I commute to work with. I just struggle to take care of the house and acreage with no truck.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/23/15 12:22 AM
I dont think you understand what independent behavior is.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/23/15 12:27 AM
Have you gotten the radio archives? You can search by topic and listen to a number of situations.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/23/15 12:27 AM
Hint: You can't make it a joint decision.
Posted By: axslinger85 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/23/15 01:07 AM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Let me ask this question though... if all this is wayward behavior, she will eventually come out of it. Dr Harley says that affairs die a natural death and wayward FOG always goes away eventually. This can't possibly go on forever, can it?

Yes, absolutely it can. Most of the time, no it doesn't, but some of the time it does. There are posters here who have gone through YEARS of what you are talking about without ever getting a WS/FWS on board with the program, because that person never chooses to get on board with the program, and the BS never chooses to draw a line in the sand on what they will/will not tolerate.

Plan A is not magic, and there's nothing guaranteeing that it will work. It's your best possible effort you can make to persuade her to get on board with this program, but it is not a silver bullet. You need to look at the possibility that she never comes around with eyes wide open and figure out where your boundaries are. A crappy, abusive marriage with this woman for the rest of your life is not going to be as good for your children as finding someone else you can model a healthy relationship to them with, and it certainly won't be any good for your well being. You need to sit down and really think about what your limits are if things don't change.

Quote
I will put financial controls in place... I am very confused about what makes deposits and withdrawals.. putting her on a strict allowance versus giving her all the freedom she wants.

Why look at this as an allowance?

I am imagining your finances are separated after what has happened, correct? Does she have direct access to your bank account, or does she ask you for money?

Plan A is things like offering to take her on dates, getting her some of her favorite treats or leaving her lovenotes, making sure you spend time every day having good conversation with her, making yourself more attractive for her and eliminating lovebusting habits you tend to have around her.

Thinking about your situation, your dilemma really goes back to having taken her back in without any conditions after she left, and she wants you to treat her like none of it ever happened.

You need to remember that it happened, and remember that she hasn't recommitted to your marriage. When she asks you for money out of your non-joint bank account, you need to politely say "No." Do you have a set of keys to your truck? Then drive it, and politely explain that it is required to perform your daily work (what I'm gathering from all of this is that it's a work truck, right?).

A big fundamental to remember is that Plan A isn't about $$$. Dates can be done cheaply, favors can be done cheaply, all of it does not require you to become a human ATM. It's about you inviting her to join you in recreational activity. If she's flying solo or burning cash, you can bet that it's not Plan A. You need to gauge how much effort you're putting into Plan A by the amount of UA time you are spending with her, not the amount of money.

"Freedom" to be away from you, driving a car you need for work, spending your money...etc...is not something you should be facilitating. At all. And it's not part of Plan A.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/23/15 01:19 AM
I dont think it is a work truck. He said he uses it for household projects.
Posted By: axslinger85 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/23/15 01:24 AM
If it's not a work truck and you two are joint owners of it, then I don't understand what the problem is with her driving it. Maybe it's frustrating to you right now but until she is on board with the program/EPs you're not going to be able to work things like that out very easily. Focus on other more important things.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/23/15 02:00 AM
Originally Posted by apples123
Hint: You can't make it a joint decision.

Hopefully, you know what I mean. We talked about it ahead of time.. She deferred to me as being the "car expert".. so I did the research etc... but I took her to go buy it. I would not have done anything if she was not in enthusiastic agreement, and trust me, she was in complete agreement. This was also before I read Dr Harley's material... I have learned the hard way to not make decisions without the enthusiastic agreement of my spouse because she never lets me hear the end of it if I do.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/23/15 02:06 AM
Originally Posted by axslinger85
Originally Posted by typicalman
Let me ask this question though... if all this is wayward behavior, she will eventually come out of it. Dr Harley says that affairs die a natural death and wayward FOG always goes away eventually. This can't possibly go on forever, can it?

Yes, absolutely it can. Most of the time, no it doesn't, but some of the time it does. There are posters here who have gone through YEARS of what you are talking about without ever getting a WS/FWS on board with the program, because that person never chooses to get on board with the program, and the BS never chooses to draw a line in the sand on what they will/will not tolerate.

Plan A is not magic, and there's nothing guaranteeing that it will work. It's your best possible effort you can make to persuade her to get on board with this program, but it is not a silver bullet. You need to look at the possibility that she never comes around with eyes wide open and figure out where your boundaries are. A crappy, abusive marriage with this woman for the rest of your life is not going to be as good for your children as finding someone else you can model a healthy relationship to them with, and it certainly won't be any good for your well being. You need to sit down and really think about what your limits are if things don't change.

Quote
I will put financial controls in place... I am very confused about what makes deposits and withdrawals.. putting her on a strict allowance versus giving her all the freedom she wants.

Why look at this as an allowance?

I am imagining your finances are separated after what has happened, correct? Does she have direct access to your bank account, or does she ask you for money?

Plan A is things like offering to take her on dates, getting her some of her favorite treats or leaving her lovenotes, making sure you spend time every day having good conversation with her, making yourself more attractive for her and eliminating lovebusting habits you tend to have around her.

Thinking about your situation, your dilemma really goes back to having taken her back in without any conditions after she left, and she wants you to treat her like none of it ever happened.

You need to remember that it happened, and remember that she hasn't recommitted to your marriage. When she asks you for money out of your non-joint bank account, you need to politely say "No." Do you have a set of keys to your truck? Then drive it, and politely explain that it is required to perform your daily work (what I'm gathering from all of this is that it's a work truck, right?).

A big fundamental to remember is that Plan A isn't about $$$. Dates can be done cheaply, favors can be done cheaply, all of it does not require you to become a human ATM. It's about you inviting her to join you in recreational activity. If she's flying solo or burning cash, you can bet that it's not Plan A. You need to gauge how much effort you're putting into Plan A by the amount of UA time you are spending with her, not the amount of money.

"Freedom" to be away from you, driving a car you need for work, spending your money...etc...is not something you should be facilitating. At all. And it's not part of Plan A.

good points... with regard to boundaries, I am trying to figure out where I do draw the line. I was going to give her another 6-8 months then divorce her (although, I think she has plans for divorce sooner). On one hand, I think it is the right limit to say I have done everything I can do.. .on the other hand.. I feel EXTREMELY selfish for divorcing just because she is a bad wife and not giving me the kind of marriage I want. I do want to model a better relationship for my kids. I am really really struggling with the morality of divorce.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/23/15 02:16 AM
Originally Posted by apples123
"Abduction" would be a hard sell in court. An abusive husband would, in this case, be an easy sell in court. Also, removing children from the care of the primarily responsible parent (SAHM) in the absence of physical abuse is nearly impossible.

You are right.. this is my problem. My lawyer says it's not abduction if a mom takes her own children... The kids therapist has testified to all the problems and trust issues it has created for the children... but basically, a mom can do whatever she wants as far as the legal system is concerned. It is just assumed that the dad is irrelevant by the court.
Posted By: axslinger85 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/23/15 03:14 AM
Originally Posted by typicalman
good points... with regard to boundaries, I am trying to figure out where I do draw the line. I was going to give her another 6-8 months then divorce her (although, I think she has plans for divorce sooner). On one hand, I think it is the right limit to say I have done everything I can do.. .on the other hand.. I feel EXTREMELY selfish for divorcing just because she is a bad wife and not giving me the kind of marriage I want. I do want to model a better relationship for my kids. I am really really struggling with the morality of divorce.

What you're dealing with is WAY WAY past the point of "not giving me the kind of marriage I want". That's the sort of sentiment I would associate with men who come here wanting to divorce because they're not getting enough sex or because their wife won't tolerate their own independent behavior.

What you're dealing with is "the kind of marriage nobody could survive". She's cheated on you, randomly abandoned you (taking your kids) for 6 months, and is now mooching off of you while rejecting your attempts to meet her needs and work on the marriage. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess NONE of your emotional needs are being met.

I'm not saying "give up", but you don't need any further moral justification to do so, if you choose to. No sane person would blame you for walking away from this. Almost all Christian denominations allow divorce in the cases of abuse, abandonment and adultery, and you've already dealt with all 3 of those things.

If you choose to try and save this, it needs to be because you still truly love her and truly want to save the marriage. Trying to do an effective Plan A from feeling guilty about divorce isn't going to work out. It's a hard race to run and your heart needs to be in it.

Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/23/15 03:45 AM
Originally Posted by axslinger85
If it's not a work truck and you two are joint owners of it, then I don't understand what the problem is with her driving it. Maybe it's frustrating to you right now but until she is on board with the program/EPs you're not going to be able to work things like that out very easily. Focus on other more important things.

Right... it's not the end of the world. I have had to rent a truck in the past months when I needed to get something done. It's just an example of extreme selfishness I am dealing with.

Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/23/15 04:06 AM
Originally Posted by axslinger85
Originally Posted by typicalman
good points... with regard to boundaries, I am trying to figure out where I do draw the line. I was going to give her another 6-8 months then divorce her (although, I think she has plans for divorce sooner). On one hand, I think it is the right limit to say I have done everything I can do.. .on the other hand.. I feel EXTREMELY selfish for divorcing just because she is a bad wife and not giving me the kind of marriage I want. I do want to model a better relationship for my kids. I am really really struggling with the morality of divorce.

What you're dealing with is WAY WAY past the point of "not giving me the kind of marriage I want". That's the sort of sentiment I would associate with men who come here wanting to divorce because they're not getting enough sex or because their wife won't tolerate their own independent behavior.

What you're dealing with is "the kind of marriage nobody could survive". She's cheated on you, randomly abandoned you (taking your kids) for 6 months, and is now mooching off of you while rejecting your attempts to meet her needs and work on the marriage. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess NONE of your emotional needs are being met.

I'm not saying "give up", but you don't need any further moral justification to do so, if you choose to. No sane person would blame you for walking away from this. Almost all Christian denominations allow divorce in the cases of abuse, abandonment and adultery, and you've already dealt with all 3 of those things.

If you choose to try and save this, it needs to be because you still truly love her and truly want to save the marriage. Trying to do an effective Plan A from feeling guilty about divorce isn't going to work out. It's a hard race to run and your heart needs to be in it.

When you put it this way... it sounds pretty bad. How could I have married someone this purely evil? I struggle with that.

She has destroyed my "feeling" of love for her by withdrawing love units.. but I still choose to love her as I promised to on the day we were married. We are supposed to love even our enemy's. The motivation that I have to save this marriage are two things: #1 She is the mother of my children, so I can never replace her #2 I am just a very determined person and I like to fix things.. I have just determined that I want to fix this. My kids look to me to fix this.. and they have literally asked me to fix it. I promised them I would do my best to fix it.

Everyone I know friends, family, coworkers are telling me to divorce and move on. I know that I have the right to do it. My kids are not saying that though... they love their mom and want us both together and I am listening to them.

As far as my emotional needs being met... she is not really meeting my top intimate emotional needs, but she is someone to talk to at the end of the day, she does make dinner most nights, she does do laundry (i.e. basic domestic support).. she has gotten some new clothes and she looks attractive to me from time to time... so there is something there. Sometimes its also a very lonely & isolating feeling to be with her.

I am putting myself through alot... but I really do want to make sure I am the one that is convinced that I have done everything humanly possible to win her back. When she is "in love" I think I can get her to do the program, but without being "in love" there is no chance. I am on this board not to be told to divorce her because I have everyone else in the world to tell me that. I want to make sure I have made nothing less than a heroic effort to save this.


Also.. I have started to work on my resume and talk about other places to live. A pending divorce does make it a little more complicated.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/23/15 05:33 AM
Originally Posted by typicalman
To all the other posters.. I talked to Dr Harley. I sent him 6 pages of all the gory details of what she has done. He recommended plan A as long as I can hold out. He also recommended that given the age of my children, if I could hold out 5 years for them, that would be best.
Were you on the show or was this through email?
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/23/15 11:53 AM
He was on the show.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/23/15 03:12 PM
How is she paying for the phone?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/23/15 04:41 PM
Originally Posted by apples123
He was on the show.
That's right, thanks back in November. It sounded like he was still emailing with Dr. Harley. Is that not accurate?
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/23/15 08:10 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by apples123
He was on the show.
That's right, thanks back in November. It sounded like he was still emailing with Dr. Harley. Is that not accurate?
I did email Dr Harley after the show, but I have not heard back.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/23/15 08:29 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by apples123
He was on the show.
That's right, thanks back in November. It sounded like he was still emailing with Dr. Harley. Is that not accurate?
I did email Dr Harley after the show, but I have not heard back.
Did you notify the MODS so they can look into this?
You could also email justuss or denali.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 03:53 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by apples123
He was on the show.
That's right, thanks back in November. It sounded like he was still emailing with Dr. Harley. Is that not accurate?
I did email Dr Harley after the show, but I have not heard back.
Did you notify the MODS so they can look into this?
You could also email justuss or denali.


Sorry it's been a while... I didn't know that contacting the mods might help me get a response and perhaps the email was misplaced. The situation is changing rapidly and I may just type a new note to Dr Harley and send it to the mods.

I had an angry outburst last night and I AM PROUD OF IT! At least for now until you all can give me some feedback that that I did the wrong thing. My WW has been walking all over me.

Last night she sat down with a bottle of wine and put " a girlfriends guide to divorce" on the TV in our living room. I kindly asked her twice if we could watch something that we would both possibly enjoy together. She refused. I don't really know what this show is about, but I know the title and it's not something I want on in my house / living room. I also felt that it is time for me to stand up for our marriage.

I stormed out... disconnected the cable outside and went for a walk. I felt a little bad / guilty for having this kind of outburst, but then I thought that showing some emotion in the act of STANDING UP FOR OUR MARRIAGE is NOT wrong, and I should not feel bad about it.

I came back to the house very calm and offered to her that we play a game together or something else. She said no of course, but she was reading a book. I grabbed my bible and sat there and read with her.

YES, I had an angry outburst... but I'm done with her walking all over me and I'm done with facilitating my marriage being killed by her.

Feel free to leave me comments on what I should have done differently.
Posted By: WrestlerChemist Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 04:15 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
I came back to the house very calm and offered to her that we play a game together or something else. She said no of course, but she was reading a book. I grabbed my bible and sat there and read with her.

I am not in the best position to offer advise, so I will keep it brief with one thing I noticed. I would be careful about trying to to use the Bible as a weapon against your spouse. If you grab and read your Bible every night and she is familiar with seeing you like that, than no problem. If this is totally new to your behavior, I would tread carefully - she may see it as a condemning action like you are trying to force feed her verses, etc.

Just a thought. By no means am I advocating you stop reading the Bible smile
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 05:01 PM
Originally Posted by WrestlerChemist
Originally Posted by typicalman
I came back to the house very calm and offered to her that we play a game together or something else. She said no of course, but she was reading a book. I grabbed my bible and sat there and read with her.

I am not in the best position to offer advise, so I will keep it brief with one thing I noticed. I would be careful about trying to to use the Bible as a weapon against your spouse. If you grab and read your Bible every night and she is familiar with seeing you like that, than no problem. If this is totally new to your behavior, I would tread carefully - she may see it as a condemning action like you are trying to force feed her verses, etc.

Just a thought. By no means am I advocating you stop reading the Bible smile


I do read it every night. It is the only book that I am currently reading.
Posted By: WrestlerChemist Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 05:12 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
I do read it every night. It is the only book that I am currently reading.

I mean - I read my Bible every night too now since my WW announced she is having an affair. But if she was home right now, and I sat on the couch next to her with my Bible and started reading it, it would look really strange to her because it is a new behavior of mine. She may perceive it as condemning. BUT if your spouse is familiar with seeing you read the Bible then you should have no worries laugh
Posted By: Prisca Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 05:46 PM
Quote
I had an angry outburst last night and I AM PROUD OF IT!
Then you are wasting our time. Please let us know when you are interested in following Marriage Builders.
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 05:48 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
I had an angry outburst last night and I AM PROUD OF IT!

An angry outburst is temporary insanity. When you are angry everything you are thinking of doing or saying is irrational and is going to make your problem worse.

Not only that but this is abusive behavior and we don't condone marital abuse here no matter what the spouse has done.

Quote
YES, I had an angry outburst... but I'm done with her walking all over me and I'm done with facilitating my marriage being killed by her.

That's great you should never let her walk all over you, but the choices are not "either I let her walk all over me or I have an angry outburst."

If you don't want her to walk all over you, try Plan A or Plan B. If you can't Plan A without having angry outbursts then you need to either get on antidepressants or go to Plan B.
Posted By: WrestlerChemist Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 05:50 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
I had an angry outburst last night and I AM PROUD OF IT!
Then you are wasting our time. Please let us know when you are interested in following Marriage Builders.

I was thinking about suggesting this but I felt like I am not experienced enough to make a remark like this.

But from what I have learned, ANY angry outburst at all drives your spouse into the OM and makes OM look like a prince.
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 05:50 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by WrestlerChemist
Originally Posted by typicalman
I came back to the house very calm and offered to her that we play a game together or something else. She said no of course, but she was reading a book. I grabbed my bible and sat there and read with her.

I am not in the best position to offer advise, so I will keep it brief with one thing I noticed. I would be careful about trying to to use the Bible as a weapon against your spouse. If you grab and read your Bible every night and she is familiar with seeing you like that, than no problem. If this is totally new to your behavior, I would tread carefully - she may see it as a condemning action like you are trying to force feed her verses, etc.

Just a thought. By no means am I advocating you stop reading the Bible smile


I do read it every night. It is the only book that I am currently reading.

Have you read what the Bible says about anger?
Posted By: Prisca Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 05:53 PM
Originally Posted by WrestlerChemist
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
I had an angry outburst last night and I AM PROUD OF IT!
Then you are wasting our time. Please let us know when you are interested in following Marriage Builders.

I was thinking about suggesting this but I felt like I am not experienced enough to make a remark like this.

But from what I have learned, ANY angry outburst at all drives your spouse into the OM and makes OM look like a prince.

A marriage cannot be recovered when a husband has angry outbursts and is proud of it. It is impossible.
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 05:53 PM
And we need to reinforce that you are not doing Plan A here. Plan A is not a way of life for conflict avoiders.

Learn what Marriage Builders says to do about problems in your marriage instead of having an angry outburst. You don't because you aren't becoming educated about Marriage Builders. You are just practicing conflict avoidance and calling it Marriage Builders. You are just engaging your Giver and shutting down your Taker until your Taker can't be silenced anymore, and that is the opposite of Plan A. Plan A brings both your Giver and your Taker into play.

What you are doing is not Plan A, so don't expect it to work.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 05:54 PM
Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
Early on, I came to recognize that angry outbursts are probably the most damaging thing a spouse can do in marriage. I say this in spite of my recognition that infidelity is also a very damaging behavior. But I'm often more optimistic about the recovery of a marriage that has suffered from infidelity than than recovery of a marriage that suffers from angry outbursts. The primary reason that angry outbursts just about eliminate the hope of marital happiness is that even if they are very infrequent, they prevent a couple from solving their problems because the threat always hangs over every conversation. The first guideline for marital negotiation is to make the discussion pleasant and safe, and an angry spouse fails that very first condition, making the rest of it impossible to implement. Angry spouses simply create an environment that makes it impossible to make marital adjustments. That's why I advise couples with multiple problems that include anger to overcome the anger first, and then focus on the rest of the problems later.
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by WrestlerChemist
Originally Posted by typicalman
I came back to the house very calm and offered to her that we play a game together or something else. She said no of course, but she was reading a book. I grabbed my bible and sat there and read with her.

I am not in the best position to offer advise, so I will keep it brief with one thing I noticed. I would be careful about trying to to use the Bible as a weapon against your spouse. If you grab and read your Bible every night and she is familiar with seeing you like that, than no problem. If this is totally new to your behavior, I would tread carefully - she may see it as a condemning action like you are trying to force feed her verses, etc.

Just a thought. By no means am I advocating you stop reading the Bible smile


I do read it every night. It is the only book that I am currently reading.

Have you read what the Bible says about anger?

http://biblehub.com/galatians/5-20.htm
http://biblehub.com/colossians/3-8.htm
http://biblehub.com/ephesians/4-31.htm
http://biblehub.com/james/1-19.htm
http://biblehub.com/james/1-20.htm
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 06:02 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Feel free to leave me comments on what I should have done differently.

Okay, we have commented. Are you going to do differently?

If not, I think we need to ask you to hit the road here so as not to be a distraction and a discouragement to those who want to use the Marriage Builders plans.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 06:33 PM
Ok, I get all the comments, but on the show Joyce said that one problem is that I did not show enough emotion... and I should show more emotion about her killing our marriage. I also have gotten feedback that I am a too passive about enabling her marriage wrecking behavior. So, I stood up for our marriage and set a limit to what I will tolerate. What should I have done?
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 06:35 PM
Also, she is pushing for divorce.... and I am getting over stressed by the constant lies and abuse from her. I think I am ready for plan B.
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 06:38 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Ok, I get all the comments, but on the show Joyce said that one problem is that I did not show enough emotion... and I should show more emotion about her killing our marriage.

That still doesn't mean have angry outbursts. Everything I said above is true. When you are having an angry outburst you are temporarily insane.

Quote
So, I stood up for our marriage and set a limit to what I will tolerate. What should I have done?

Learn what Marriage Builders says to do about problems in your marriage besides having an angry outburst. Don't make us spoonfeed you; get educated.
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 06:39 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Also, she is pushing for divorce.... and I am getting over stressed by the constant lies and abuse from her. I think I am ready for plan B.

If you go to Plan B your marriage will most likely end in divorce, which is fine if that is what you want.

If you cannot prevent yourself from having angry outbursts, then you do need to go to Plan B.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 06:40 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Ok, I get all the comments, but on the show Joyce said that one problem is that I did not show enough emotion... and I should show more emotion about her killing our marriage.
Joyce did not tell you to have an Angry Outburst. sigh

Quote
So, I stood up for our marriage and set a limit to what I will tolerate.

You did not stand up for your marriage. You abused your wife.
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 06:41 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
So, I stood up for our marriage and set a limit to what I will tolerate.

You did not stand up for your marriage. You abused your wife.

Right, what you did was blow holes in a sinking boat. That's not "standing up for your marriage" or "setting a limit," but that is the kind of irrational things you tell yourself when you're having an angry outburst.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 06:45 PM
You didn't stand up for your marriage. You demanded that she stop watching a show you didnt want to watch. When she didn't comply, you made it impossible to watch
anything.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 06:57 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by typicalman
I had an angry outburst last night and I AM PROUD OF IT!

An angry outburst is temporary insanity. When you are angry everything you are thinking of doing or saying is irrational and is going to make your problem worse.

Not only that but this is abusive behavior and we don't condone marital abuse here no matter what the spouse has done.

Quote
YES, I had an angry outburst... but I'm done with her walking all over me and I'm done with facilitating my marriage being killed by her.

That's great you should never let her walk all over you, but the choices are not "either I let her walk all over me or I have an angry outburst."

If you don't want her to walk all over you, try Plan A or Plan B. If you can't Plan A without having angry outbursts then you need to either get on antidepressants or go to Plan B.

Here are my questions:

How do I not let her walk all over me or set a limit without it being an "angry outburst"?

I was thinking of Dr Harley's advice on Exposure... Exposure is a huge love buster, but it is standing up for your marriage.. .so I figured that not tolerating this marriage killing behavior... watching immoral content on Divorce deserves me showing some emotions.

Showing emotion is intended to show her that I do care about our marriage. I'm not showing emotion because the house is a mess, I'm showing emotion because she is destroying our marriage and that was exactly what I thought Dr. Harley and Joyce wanted me to do.

If I had sat down and watched it with her, I would be capitulating and enabling.

If I simply said I disagreed and walked away... I get accused of an angry outburst just for walking away..

She is killing our marriage.. why not show some emotion about it?

When we are talking about AO's, we are really talking about love busters.. so, I don't know if showing emotion in this way was a love buster or not... she may have actually appreciated my emotion on this and showing her that I care about our marriage.

She actually did not seem upset with me at all after this.

Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 07:00 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by typicalman
I had an angry outburst last night and I AM PROUD OF IT!

An angry outburst is temporary insanity. When you are angry everything you are thinking of doing or saying is irrational and is going to make your problem worse.

Not only that but this is abusive behavior and we don't condone marital abuse here no matter what the spouse has done.

Quote
YES, I had an angry outburst... but I'm done with her walking all over me and I'm done with facilitating my marriage being killed by her.

That's great you should never let her walk all over you, but the choices are not "either I let her walk all over me or I have an angry outburst."

If you don't want her to walk all over you, try Plan A or Plan B. If you can't Plan A without having angry outbursts then you need to either get on antidepressants or go to Plan B.

Here are my questions:

How do I not let her walk all over me or set a limit without it being an "angry outburst"?

Learn what Marriage Builders says to do about problems in your marriage besides having an angry outburst. Don't make us spoonfeed you; get educated. If you want to save your marriage this is not going to work if your version of learning marriage builders is just asking questions on the forum. That is why I tell you to not make us spoonfeed you. You have got to get after it and learn Marriage Builders so you can do Marriage Builders, if you want to save your marriage.

Posted By: Prisca Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 07:00 PM
You are wasting our time debating the merits of AOs. Dr. Harley does not tolerate them, and would never have told you to have one.

Let us know when you want to do Marriage Builders.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 07:02 PM
Quote
this is not going to work if your version of learning marriage builders is just asking questions on the forum.
But he's not even doing that. He'd DEBATING Marriage Builders concepts instead of picking up a book and learning what Dr. Harley says about AOs.

You've been here long enough that you should know what Dr. Harley says about AOs, typicalman. We're not here to debate it with you.
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 07:05 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
Early on, I came to recognize that angry outbursts are probably the most damaging thing a spouse can do in marriage. I say this in spite of my recognition that infidelity is also a very damaging behavior. But I'm often more optimistic about the recovery of a marriage that has suffered from infidelity than than recovery of a marriage that suffers from angry outbursts. The primary reason that angry outbursts just about eliminate the hope of marital happiness is that even if they are very infrequent, they prevent a couple from solving their problems because the threat always hangs over every conversation. The first guideline for marital negotiation is to make the discussion pleasant and safe, and an angry spouse fails that very first condition, making the rest of it impossible to implement. Angry spouses simply create an environment that makes it impossible to make marital adjustments. That's why I advise couples with multiple problems that include anger to overcome the anger first, and then focus on the rest of the problems later.

Did you read this?
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 07:06 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by WrestlerChemist
I am not in the best position to offer advise, so I will keep it brief with one thing I noticed. I would be careful about trying to to use the Bible as a weapon against your spouse. If you grab and read your Bible every night and she is familiar with seeing you like that, than no problem. If this is totally new to your behavior, I would tread carefully - she may see it as a condemning action like you are trying to force feed her verses, etc.

Just a thought. By no means am I advocating you stop reading the Bible smile


I do read it every night. It is the only book that I am currently reading.

Have you read what the Bible says about anger?

http://biblehub.com/galatians/5-20.htm
http://biblehub.com/colossians/3-8.htm
http://biblehub.com/ephesians/4-31.htm
http://biblehub.com/james/1-19.htm
http://biblehub.com/james/1-20.htm

Did you read these?
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 07:06 PM
Originally Posted by apples123
You didn't stand up for your marriage. You demanded that she stop watching a show you didnt want to watch. When she didn't comply, you made it impossible to watch
anything.

I did not make a demand.. I did not imply any punishment.. I simply asked that we watch something else. When she refused, I still did not make any threat.

What I did do was take an action to not enable it.. it's my house too, I am paying the bill, so I should not enable?

How should I have handled it as to not be an enabler?

Basically... I get the sense that everything I do is wrong in some way...

not showing emotion-> wrong.. means I don't care
showing emotion-> wrong.. it's an angry outburst
not setting limits-> wrong... I lose respect and she walks all over me
setting limits-> wrong...it's an angry outburst, or a fight, or not plan A
staying with her when she is doing something wrong -> wrong it's enabling
walking away when she does something wrong-> wrong.. it's an angry outburst
staying put-> wrong... it's capitulating


Can you see my options? I'm always choosing between evils...

The point is, when I chose something that is potentially wrong, and I err on the side of standing up for my marriage, I do feel better about that decision.

The question... what should / could I do differently?
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 07:07 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by apples123
You didn't stand up for your marriage. You demanded that she stop watching a show you didnt want to watch. When she didn't comply, you made it impossible to watch
anything.

I did not make a demand.. I did not imply any punishment.. I simply asked that we watch something else. When she refused, I still did not make any threat.

What I did do was take an action to not enable it.. it's my house too, I am paying the bill, so I should not enable?

How should I have handled it as to not be an enabler?

Basically... I get the sense that everything I do is wrong in some way...

not showing emotion-> wrong.. means I don't care
showing emotion-> wrong.. it's an angry outburst
not setting limits-> wrong... I lose respect and she walks all over me
setting limits-> wrong...it's an angry outburst, or a fight, or not plan A
staying with her when she is doing something wrong -> wrong it's enabling
walking away when she does something wrong-> wrong.. it's an angry outburst
staying put-> wrong... it's capitulating


Can you see my options? I'm always choosing between evils...

The point is, when I chose something that is potentially wrong, and I err on the side of standing up for my marriage, I do feel better about that decision.

The question... what should / could I do differently?

Quit telling us that everything you did was okay and asking how you could have handled it differently. Start listening to what we are posting so that you'll know how to handle it differently.
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 07:08 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Can you see my options? I'm always choosing between evils...

The problem with angry outbursts is that they make it impossible for you to see your options. Even if we tell you what they are you won't be able to see them because of the angry outbursts.
Posted By: mrEureka Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 07:09 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
She actually did not seem upset with me at all after this.
She didn't need to get upset. You shot yourself in the foot by having a temper tantrum. The only person who thinks they win by having an AO is the person doing it. Everybody else just sees it for what it is.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 07:10 PM
Quote
The question... what should / could I do differently?
Get educated on what Dr. Harley says about Angry Outbursts. What DOES he say?

Get educated on what Dr. Harley says a demand is. You obviously don't know how to identify one.

Get educated on Disrespectful Judgements. It's obvious you still haven't done that.

Get educated on how to properly do a Plan A. It's obvious you still haven't done that, though we've been telling you for quite some time to do so.

You are making up your own plan as you go, and justifying it, and debating with anybody who tells you anything different. You haven't been following the plan, and you STILL aren't.
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 07:11 PM
You played right into her hands and justified her divorcing you. That's why she was not upset. It's exactly what she wanted.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 07:23 PM


Have you read what the Bible says about anger? [/quote]

http://biblehub.com/galatians/5-20.htm
http://biblehub.com/colossians/3-8.htm
http://biblehub.com/ephesians/4-31.htm
http://biblehub.com/james/1-19.htm
http://biblehub.com/james/1-20.htm
[/quote]

Did you read these? [/quote]




YES... and as much as we try, we all have times when we get angry and we all sin... I want to continue to work on eliminating anger. I want to continue to work on eliminating sin of all kinds, but I am a sinner just like everyone else on here. the reality is that we are all human and we will all have some time that we sin in some way. I pray for God's help, forgiveness, and grace every day. I also understand that I must forgive others to be forgiven myself.

The reason for my post is that part of me was feeling VERY guilty for what I did, but another part of me was feeling GOOD for standing up for my marriage.

I have done a lot of work to eliminate anger... but there is one HOT button that I still have.. .that is hurting my kids or my family. I struggle the most with eliminating anger when my kids are abused or my family is threatened. I love them so much and feel a strong sense to protect them. When I get angry about these things.. I get this mixed emotion.. .extreme guilt for having anger but also a feeling that I am protecting my kids. I basically never yell at my kids... but when one is about to step into the street with oncoming traffic, I YELL! Part of me feels some guilt for yelling and part feels that I did it to protect them.

When Marriage killing trash is beaming into my house.. I got the same instinctual feeling... stop it, protect my family, and stand up for my marriage.




Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 07:33 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman




YES... and as much as we try, we all have times when we get angry and we all sin...

You just proved you aren't learning Marriage Builders at all.

This is like saying "we all have affairs, we all sin." It's called "minimizing."

The Marriage Builders plan works if you learn it and follow it, but it's becoming clear to me you are just writing to justify yourself to us rather than to learn this plan.

I'm here to help people learn the plan, so...
Posted By: Prisca Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 07:33 PM
Quote
YES... and as much as we try, we all have times when we get angry and we all sin...
And you're PROUD OF IT!!!!
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 07:44 PM
Originally Posted by markos
You played right into her hands and justified her divorcing you. That's why she was not upset. It's exactly what she wanted.

I think you are right... I think she is even trying to push my buttons and figure out where she can be successful and she found one.

I know that my behavior was wrong..I'm not going to debate. I don't need to re-read the 5 books from Dr Harley that I have already read. None of Dr Harely's suggestions on marital negotiation is going to work with her. She is not interested in POJA. She is not interested in having a safe environment for negotiation... it just won't work with her now.

I am with her all the time that I am at home and I cannot get away from her. For each time that I have slipped on something, there are 100 times that I did not.

I do think that my stress level from all of this is too high at this point.

I guess that I need to try to avoid her for a bit before we can separate or go on AD's. I'm not sure which route I should take.

Her constant barrage of me is taking it's toll on the kids and they are really getting upset. I cannot begin to tell you the things the kids are expressing and how hurt they are by this. They know full well what mom is doing and they are really sad.. they feel sad for me, and that is too much to put on them.

It's really a tough decision right now. I know you all feel that I have not done enough for plan A.. but I have been doing it for 12 months now. Of course I have made many mistakes along the way. My WW has about 10 AO's / day and I have about 1 every couple months, and it's not throwing things, yelling, etc..like her, it's usually just walking away, rolling eyes, being a little passive /aggressive.. something like that. I still want to eliminate it completely and I have a little more work to do.

I am really wondering if I should call it quits on plan A at this point for me and for the kids????




Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 07:54 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
YES... and as much as we try, we all have times when we get angry and we all sin...
And you're PROUD OF IT!!!!

The part about standing up for my marriage YES!!!! the part about being angry NO!!!!

As I think about it... I think being angry was OK, but expressing it was not OK. The part about stopping cable, I actually think was OK (it was not to punish her, it was not about being angry, it was about limits and not enabling)

I thought of it this way... if I were watching porn in the family living room and my wife wife walked in an unplugged the TV, what would you be saying??? that is actually the way I thought about it... it was that immoral in my eyes.

The part that I am NOT proud of, is the way that I walked out. She may not have even noticed it, but I "felt" angry when I walked out to take a walk.
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 07:56 PM
You haven't done Plan A. You have capitulated and been a conflict avoider and called it Plan A, but it's not Plan A.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 08:01 PM
Quote
The part about standing up for my marriage YES!!!! the part about being angry NO!!!!
You were not standing up for your marriage. You were abusing your wife, and justifying it.

And there's really not much more we can do to help you because you believe that AOs are sometimes justified (as long as you call it "standing up for your marriage).
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 08:02 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
Early on, I came to recognize that angry outbursts are probably the most damaging thing a spouse can do in marriage. I say this in spite of my recognition that infidelity is also a very damaging behavior. But I'm often more optimistic about the recovery of a marriage that has suffered from infidelity than than recovery of a marriage that suffers from angry outbursts. The primary reason that angry outbursts just about eliminate the hope of marital happiness is that even if they are very infrequent, they prevent a couple from solving their problems because the threat always hangs over every conversation. The first guideline for marital negotiation is to make the discussion pleasant and safe, and an angry spouse fails that very first condition, making the rest of it impossible to implement. Angry spouses simply create an environment that makes it impossible to make marital adjustments. That's why I advise couples with multiple problems that include anger to overcome the anger first, and then focus on the rest of the problems later.

Did you read this?

This was one of the first things we worked on in marriage counseling over a year ago. We basically were following Dr. Harley's suggestions. Basically, if we felt any negotiation was getting too emotional, we both had the right to a 20 min time out. My wife really likes having her AO's. I had AO's too, but was working hard to eliminate them. She seemed to get upset with me for not having AO's. It seemed that the less I had them, the more she would have them. She seemed to want to get a "rise" out of me... she would get really angry with me for staying calm.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 08:15 PM
Originally Posted by markos
You haven't done Plan A. You have capitulated and been a conflict avoider and called it Plan A, but it's not Plan A.

YES! Plan A is much harder than I ever thought. #1 avoid love busters #2 meet needs... both of these are easy to do with both spouses working on it, but I completely underestimated how hard it is with the other spouse working so hard against you and with raising children at the same time.

I posted a provocative post about my AO because I wanted to learn, not start a debate.


I am still trying to think of other options and I am struggling...

a) I could have tried a thoughtful request... I did try that first. I even suggested a movie title that I through we would both enjoy that she previously said that she was interested in.
b) I could have talked to her more about how what she was doing made me feel, but still let her do it.
c) I could have tried negotiation or POJA... but she did not agree to it
d) I could have simply left the room
e) I could have done nothing, but cancelled the cable the next day
f) I could have sat with her

I brainstormed all these options last night.. but I thought that showing some emotion for the sake of the marriage was the best... I see that you don't agree. I get it... but I do seriously struggle with the other options.

Would any of my other options have been better.. to me they all felt like capitulation? Was there an option that I did not consider?

Again, I posted this to learn something.

Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 08:17 PM
Another option... I could have walked out.. bought her flowers and returned to again ask her to stop. Thinking about it, that might also feel like enabling by rewarding bad behavior.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 08:21 PM
Originally Posted by markos
You haven't done Plan A. You have capitulated and been a conflict avoider and called it Plan A, but it's not Plan A.

Dr Harley says to avoid fights at all costs in plan A... that means be a conflict avoider right? He basically told me to try to prove that I care for her by giving her whatever she wants but just "don't give away the store"... he said that my wife needs to be given whatever she wants in order to feel cared for. So.. yes, this is why Ii have been capitulating and avoiding conflict. Did I understand it wrong?
Posted By: Prisca Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 08:25 PM
Quote
but I thought that showing some emotion for the sake of the marriage was the best
You were not just "showing emotion." You became abusive and had an AO. There's a difference. Stop minimizing.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 08:26 PM
Quote
Dr Harley says to avoid fights at all costs in plan A... that means be a conflict avoider right?
No, it doesn't.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 08:30 PM
Quote
YES! Plan A is much harder than I ever thought. #1 avoid love busters #2 meet needs... both of these are easy to do with both spouses working on it, but I completely underestimated how hard it is with the other spouse working so hard against you and with raising children at the same time.
You're preaching to the choir. You're not telling markos anything he didn't have to to through. I've told you before, but you'd be wise to start LISTENING to him. He knows how to do a spectacular Plan A. He knows how to do a Plan A without being a conflict avoider. He knows how to actually do this ... but you choose to debate.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 08:31 PM
Originally Posted by markos
You just proved you aren't learning Marriage Builders at all.

This is like saying "we all have affairs, we all sin." It's called "minimizing."

The Marriage Builders plan works if you learn it and follow it, but it's becoming clear to me you are just writing to justify yourself to us rather than to learn this plan.

I'm here to help people learn the plan, so...



we are all wired to have affairs and we are all wired to sin... but, as sinners, we do two things:

#1 we avoid things that will lead us to sin... this is very similar to what Dr Harley says about extraordinary precautions.

#2 when we sin.. .we are sorry, we repent, and try to avoid further sin. An affair is an ongoing decision to live in a state of sin. Being short with someone is a sin where we made a mistake, we repent, and try not to do it again. We all make these kinds of sins on a daily basis.. An example is that driving to work, we forget to give someone the right of way, we get a little frustrated with traffic and honk the horn when we didn't need to.. these are the kinds of things we all do that are sinful and we should avoid. There is a big difference between that and having an ongoing affair.

I am on this board to learn to better myself. I could easily say nothing and pretend I am doing everything perfect, but that wont help my marriage and it won't make me any better.

I have not read the book "love busters"... although I have ready many others.. would you recommend that for more detail on AO's?

Any suggestions on what I "should" have done???...

Yes, folks have written me plenty on what I am going wrong, but I am really looking for an answer on this.. it would really help me.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 08:34 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
but I thought that showing some emotion for the sake of the marriage was the best
You were not just "showing emotion." You became abusive and had an AO. There's a difference. Stop minimizing.

Do you think one of my other options would have been better? Which one? was there something that I did not think of?
Posted By: Prisca Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 08:35 PM
Quote
we are all wired to have affairs and we are all wired to sin... but, as sinners, we do two things:

#1 we avoid things that will lead us to sin... this is very similar to what Dr Harley says about extraordinary precautions.

#2 when we sin.. .we are sorry, we repent, and try to avoid further sin. An affair is an ongoing decision to live in a state of sin. Being short with someone is a sin where we made a mistake, we repent, and try not to do it again. We all make these kinds of sins on a daily basis.. An example is that driving to work, we forget to give someone the right of way, we get a little frustrated with traffic and honk the horn when we didn't need to.. these are the kinds of things we all do that are sinful and we should avoid. There is a big difference between that and having an ongoing affair.
More minimizing.

Quote
I have not read the book "love busters"... although I have ready many others.. would you recommend that for more detail on AO's?
How many times have we told you to get educated on your lovebusters? Yes, it's past time for you to read the book and get educated.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 08:42 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
The part about standing up for my marriage YES!!!! the part about being angry NO!!!!
You were not standing up for your marriage. You were abusing your wife, and justifying it.

And there's really not much more we can do to help you because you believe that AOs are sometimes justified (as long as you call it "standing up for your marriage).

I don't think that AO's are justified. I guess I just don't know the difference between standing up for myself or my marriage and an AO. Again, we are not talking about anything violent.. but showing emotion... showing that you care about something. I do struggle with that.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 08:49 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
YES! Plan A is much harder than I ever thought. #1 avoid love busters #2 meet needs... both of these are easy to do with both spouses working on it, but I completely underestimated how hard it is with the other spouse working so hard against you and with raising children at the same time.
You're preaching to the choir. You're not telling markos anything he didn't have to to through. I've told you before, but you'd be wise to start LISTENING to him. He knows how to do a spectacular Plan A. He knows how to do a Plan A without being a conflict avoider. He knows how to actually do this ... but you choose to debate.


I feel like I am just being told that everything that I am doing is wrong but not get clear answers or suggestions on what to do. Hence, my posts turn into debate.. and it is a waist of everyone's time. I am sorry for my part in this wasted effort and debate.

Please thought.. I would really like action oriented advice; things that I can go home and do today. What other option should I have taken with the situation that I presented. Not a single poster has given me another option but just to tell me that what I did was wrong.

I kinda knew that what I did was wrong.. which is why I made such a provocative post. If I can get some suggestions, my thought process will begin to flow.

Once my thought process begins flowing, the next time this comes up, I'll start thinking of other solutions. I need a little help to prime the pump here.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 09:00 PM
You have been given action oriented advice -- get educated. It has been posted to you time and time again.

We're not here to solve every conflict for you. You need to learn the tools to solve them yourself. A big problem is that you haven't taken the time to get educated and learn how to do that.

Get Lovebusters. Read it. What does Dr. Harley say about AOs? What does he say about Demands and Disrespect?
If you cannot stop the AOs, go to Plan B.
This is all action oriented advice, and has already been posted to you.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 09:09 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
You have been given action oriented advice -- get educated. It has been posted to you time and time again.

We're not here to solve every conflict for you. You need to learn the tools to solve them yourself. A big problem is that you haven't taken the time to get educated and learn how to do that.

Get Lovebusters. Read it. What does Dr. Harley say about AOs? What does he say about Demands and Disrespect?
If you cannot stop the AOs, go to Plan B.
This is all action oriented advice, and has already been posted to you.

OK.. I will read LB.

I have read almost all his articles and listened to his show every day. I am obviously struggling with application of some of it in the real world.

One thing that has been hard.. I am out in the open ALL the time. The only time I have to read is lunch hour at work etc...

My wife is very mad about Dr Harley's materials...POJA, Exposure, etc.. if she catches me reading at home, I am in trouble.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 09:12 PM
Quote
My wife is very mad about Dr Harley's materials...POJA, Exposure, etc.. if she catches me reading at home, I am in trouble.
So? Never stopped markos ....
Posted By: Prisca Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 09:15 PM
Quote
I have read almost all his articles
I don't think you have. Read everything listed on the left here:
Q&A Columns
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 09:37 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
I have read almost all his articles
I don't think you have. Read everything listed on the left here:
Q&A Columns

I will make sure I got all of them.

If I listen to what my wife is saying is bothering her... most of what she says is " you didn't do this for me, so you don't care about me", "if you cared about me you would get me this", then "you annoy me", "everything you say is stupid", " you are dumb", " you are a "bad father", "you always xxx, you never yyy"...

It really feels like she is just in withdrawal and just me being around annoys her. My deposits can't make it through due to this perpetual withdrawal she is in. The problem is, I just don't know. Is it my love busters that are the problem or is it a closed love bank. Her love bank is clearly closed so i can't get enough of a deposit in there to offset even the smallest love buster. In the past, I could always make enough deposits to overcome my love busters and they were 100 times what they are now.





Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/28/15 11:53 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
I have read almost all his articles
I don't think you have. Read everything listed on the left here:
Q&A Columns

This is the excerpt from the articles that I found most relevant.. I am controlling because:

"She may want to make decisions that do not take your
feelings into account, and you won't let her.

This is a more common reason than the first for women to feel they are being controlled by their husbands. It's what most people don't like about the Policy of Joint Agreement. It's great when someone else considers our feeling before making a decision, but when we are asked to do the same, many of us think they're attempting to control our lives.

As often as I've witnessed it, I'm still amazed by people who want their spouses to let them do anything they want. "If he really loved me, he would know how much it means to me, and he'd want me to enjoy myself. After all, I'd do the same for him!"

Let's think that through. What she is saying is that if he loved her, he would be willing to suffer so that she could be happy. He explains that what she wants to do would make him unhappy, but she wants to do it anyway. And she appeals to his love for her to get her way. But what about her love for him? If she loved him, would she want to engage in activities that cause him to suffer? The truth is, whenever someone wants to gain at someone else's expense, they are being self-centered and uncaring.

Why use the argument, "If you loved me you would suffer for me?" Because it works. Our Takers know a good thing when they see it and use that argument to gain sympathy. But it sure doesn't make any sense for people who really do care about each other.

Your wife may want to do whatever she pleases without having to consider your feelings first. She may interpret the defense of your interests as "controlling," and doesn't want you to keep her from engaging in inconsiderate behavior. She may want you to consider her feelings, and avoid behavior that is upsetting to her, but she may not want to return the favor. If that's what you're up against, I suggest that you set an example to her of what it means to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement. Make sure you always consider her feelings whenever you make a decision, and ask, but don't demand, that she consider your feelings whenever she makes a decision. Let her do whatever she wants (to prevent her from doing so would be a Love Buster), but also let her know how much it is hurting you. Your wife may eventually come to realize that your relationship depends on your mutual consideration of feelings. But even if she doesn't come to that realization, you will be depositing love units, and avoiding their withdrawal, which will change her state of mind eventually. As soon as you have deposited enough love units for her to enter the state of intimacy, her thoughtfulness of your feelings will be instinctive to her. "


I have been trying to follow the advice at the bottom of this article.. basically. give her everything that she wants, let her know how it hurts me, but also consult her for every decision I make. Sometimes her response is "I don't care what you do as long as you give me what I ask for"

this is a big part of where being the "capitulator", "conflict avoid er" has come in, but.. I don't give away the store... so I set a limit ( the the case of last night, allowing something immoral into my living room) and that will of course feel controlling to her.

Dr Harley on angry outbursts says "we all do it" but it is "never acceptable"... I'm not trying to defend the occasional angry outburst... I am a very, very calm person... but I do have the occasional "passive aggressive" angry outburst... I'd love to eliminate it all together.

When I read the articles though it is clear to me that in years past BOTH my wife and I have been abusive to eachother... name calling, stonewalling, yelling. Looking back, I am not proud at all for my side of it. Her view is that her anger, temper, etc.. was all OK because she is female, and she has an Irish temper and she is entitled to that. One thing that made our relationship good was that making up after a fight was always REALLY good for us... In years past, I have to admit.. I have even started a few fights just so that we could make up... it brought us so close together and I really liked that closeness.

I am most of the way through... I will keep reading though.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/29/15 12:22 AM
Quote
I have been trying to follow the advice at the bottom of this article.. basically. give her everything that she wants, let her know how it hurts me, but also consult her for every decision I make. Sometimes her response is "I don't care what you do as long as you give me what I ask for"

this is a big part of where being the "capitulator", "conflict avoid er" has come in, but.. I don't give away the store... so I set a limit ( the the case of last night, allowing something immoral into my living room) and that will of course feel controlling to her.
You still don't get it.
No, you don't just give her whatever she wants. This will set you up for resentment, which will lead to disaster.

No, you don't get to "set a limit" and control her because you've decided something is immoral and will not be allowed in YOUR living room. This is disrespectful. You are not her father.

None of this is MB.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/29/15 12:57 AM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
I have been trying to follow the advice at the bottom of this article.. basically. give her everything that she wants, let her know how it hurts me, but also consult her for every decision I make. Sometimes her response is "I don't care what you do as long as you give me what I ask for"

this is a big part of where being the "capitulator", "conflict avoid er" has come in, but.. I don't give away the store... so I set a limit ( the the case of last night, allowing something immoral into my living room) and that will of course feel controlling to her.
You still don't get it.
No, you don't just give her whatever she wants. This will set you up for resentment, which will lead to disaster.

No, you don't get to "set a limit" and control her because you've decided something is immoral and will not be allowed in YOUR living room. This is disrespectful. You are not her father.

None of this is MB.

Dr Harley told me not to "Give away the store"... . I was offended by it. If I had porn on, would she not have the right to shut it off because it offended her? The same thing would be true with the money... when it gets out of control, I just shut it off.

I see your point though... I won't shut it off again, but I am still searching for the alternative other than just telling her how offended and hurt I am as this article suggests.

Anyway, I just talked to her...she brought it up. She actually does not even know that I had an angry outburst... she thought we just had a temporary problem with the cable when i went for my walk and she was complaining to me about our service.. I guess... even though I felt angry inside, she didn't really notice it much.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/29/15 01:04 AM
Quote
Dr Harley told me not to "Give away the store"... . I was offended by it.
You are missusing Dr. Harley's advice -- when he tells you to not "give away the store," he is not giving you permission to lovebust your wife with demands, disrespect and angry outbursts.

Quote
I see your point though... I won't shut it off again, but I am still searching for the alternative other than just telling her how offended and hurt I am as this article suggests.
There is no alternative. You don't get to control her. You tell her that it hurts you, and you let her decide what she's going to to do with that information. If she continues to hurt you, you can separate and go to Plan B. But you don't get to set limits and control her.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/29/15 01:07 AM
Quote
Dr Harley told me not to "Give away the store"...
"Don't give away the store" does not mean "control your wife if she steps over the line."
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/29/15 01:32 AM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
Dr Harley told me not to "Give away the store"...
"Don't give away the store" does not mean "control your wife if she steps over the line."

I do not want to "control"... and I am setting the limit on myself, not her... the way I see limit setting is limits on what I am willing to do. I am paying for the TV... I don't have to. She is free to leave, go to a bar, go to a friends house and watch her TV, she is even free to go have am affair... I cannot control any of that. I thought that us what he meant by control... I thought that if something deeply offended me that was in my house that I pay all the bills for, I could set my own limit on what I am willing to do. I see your point though about it seeming parent-child. I also thought it would seem uncaring of me if I didn't do it.

I called my lawyer today about strategies to get her out of the house... and we are working on that.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/29/15 02:01 AM
Quote
I do not want to "control"... and I am setting the limit on myself, not her... the way I see limit setting is limits on what I am willing to do. I am paying for the TV... I don't have to. She is free to leave, go to a bar, go to a friends house and watch her TV, she is even free to go have am affair... I cannot control any of that. I thought that us what he meant by control... I thought that if something deeply offended me that was in my house that I pay all the bills for, I could set my own limit on what I am willing to do. I see your point though about it seeming parent-child. I also thought it would seem uncaring of me if I didn't do it.
You were controlling her. Period. You demanded that she watch something else (and yes, it was a demand -- how do you tell the difference between a request and a demand?). Then you had an AO over what TV show she chose to watch, and you controlled her.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/29/15 02:27 AM
You DON'T get to set limits on HER. You set limits on You. If you are offended by her viewing materials, you express your request respectfully. If your request is ignored, exit the situation peacefully. Not by forcing your will on her.

And these instructions are same for a spouse watching porn...you do not have the right to exert your will over her.

So...what made your request into a self-demand? (The answer is less than 8 words.)
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/29/15 02:33 AM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
I do not want to "control"... and I am setting the limit on myself, not her... the way I see limit setting is limits on what I am willing to do. I am paying for the TV... I don't have to. She is free to leave, go to a bar, go to a friends house and watch her TV, she is even free to go have am affair... I cannot control any of that. I thought that us what he meant by control... I thought that if something deeply offended me that was in my house that I pay all the bills for, I could set my own limit on what I am willing to do. I see your point though about it seeming parent-child. I also thought it would seem uncaring of me if I didn't do it.
You were controlling her. Period. You demanded that she watch something else (and yes, it was a demand -- how do you tell the difference between a request and a demand?). Then you had an AO over what TV show she chose to watch, and you controlled her.

You are right... I had AO... I thought a request is where you have the option to say no. I simply asked her if she would like to do something else. I gave her the option to say no. She said no, and I got angry and went for a walk... that was an AO! I agree. I should have just told her how hurtful and offensive it was to me and moved on. The part that makes me mad is that she could care in the least how her behavior hurts me. I think that is why I should start planning now for plan B. I will need to stay in plan A until the day we can separate. Does that sound like a reasonable plan?
Posted By: Prisca Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/29/15 03:18 AM
Quote
She said no, and I got angry
So she really didn't have the option to say "no."

Quote
I will need to stay in plan A until the day we can separate. Does that sound like a reasonable plan?
Yes.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/29/15 03:43 AM
you are right... in the end I punished her for her thoughtless behavior. I have a history of doing this... as in Dr Harley's article that I referenced, she historically will do things without regard to my thoughts or feelings... thoughtlessness to the the extreme and utter disregard for my feelings. My historical response has been to withhold something or withdraw... this has been a pattern of behaviors.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/29/15 03:49 AM
She asked me to pick up some items tomorrow including feminine hygiene products... I feel demoralized doing it and I know there will be severe punishment from her if i don't pick up a single item on her list. Should I do it?
Posted By: Ron_C Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/29/15 06:37 AM
Originally Posted by typicalman
She asked me to pick up some items tomorrow including feminine hygiene products... I feel demoralized doing it and I know there will be severe punishment from her if i don't pick up a single item on her list. Should I do it?

I would use every opportunity like this. dont look at it as demoralizing look at it as a way to make love bank deposits.
Posted By: LostOnLeftCoast Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/29/15 06:48 AM
Yes I would agree, you should do it. Nothing demoralizing about purchasing feminine products, if you are working to save your marriage.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/29/15 11:19 AM
Originally Posted by LostOnWestCoast
Yes I would agree, you should do it. Nothing demoralizing about purchasing feminine products, if you are working to save your marriage.

Ok... yes, on the other hand, should I do something that I do not enjoy for her? This is what I have been doing all along with plan A, sacraficing and capituating and it doesn't seem to be working. I am also being told on this forum to stop doing that.

I should be negotiating with her to find a win win... maybe I do something else for her... like watch the kids while she runs to the store.. etc. We could discuss other options, but, it it simply not up for negotiation with her.

Can you imagine the consequences and punishment that I face though if I do not come home with this stuff? I'm probably not making a love bank deposit when I am just avoiding punishment.

Can you see who is controlling who in this relationship? I am terrified to not do something that I really don't want to do. She knows that... so, I think when I do things for her... she knows that it is out of fear and that may be a reason for no deposits. Is there any way a out of this cycle? Separation or Divorce seems like the only option.
Posted By: Aerith Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/29/15 12:32 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by LostOnWestCoast
Yes I would agree, you should do it. Nothing demoralizing about purchasing feminine products, if you are working to save your marriage.

Ok... yes, on the other hand, should I do something that I do not enjoy for her? This is what I have been doing all along with plan A, sacraficing and capituating and it doesn't seem to be working. I am also being told on this forum to stop doing that.

I should be negotiating with her to find a win win... maybe I do something else for her... like watch the kids while she runs to the store.. etc. We could discuss other options, but, it it simply not up for negotiation with her.

Can you imagine the consequences and punishment that I face though if I do not come home with this stuff? I'm probably not making a love bank deposit when I am just avoiding punishment.

Can you see who is controlling who in this relationship? I am terrified to not do something that I really don't want to do. She knows that... so, I think when I do things for her... she knows that it is out of fear and that may be a reason for no deposits. Is there any way a out of this cycle? Separation or Divorce seems like the only option.

You overthink everything. You could just tell her - Hun, I feel uncomfortable purchasing women's stuff - could you take some time and go shopping and I will take kids out (or something like that).

From outside it looks like you are trying to justify separation/divorce and exaggerating her faults and minimizing yours. No need to justify that, it's your decision, and Dr Harley totally approves divorce on the ground of infidelity.

BTW, how are the kids health? Have you sorted out the issue with their treatment(s)?

Posted By: goody2shoes Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/29/15 01:24 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Ok... yes, on the other hand, should I do something that I do not enjoy for her? This is what I have been doing all along with plan A, sacraficing and capituating and it doesn't seem to be working. I am also being told on this forum to stop doing that.
Plan A doesn't include sacrifice.

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
Plan A should never involve sacrifice. In other words, you can be as encouraging as possible about your willingness to meet his emotional needs without actually doing it, and still be in Plan A. And you can defend yourself from your husband's abuse (calling the police or calling his lover's husband) and still be in Plan A. The point of plan A is that you are making an effort to do your part to make your marriage successful, but from my perspective, it should never involve personal sacrifice.

Originally Posted by What Are Plan A and Plan B?
So, then, what is plan A and plan B?

Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments, and selfish demands. These three Love Busters not only ruin any effort to reach a negotiated settlement, but they also make the betrayed spouse much less attractive to the wayward spouse. Instead of encouraging total separation from the lover, the anger, disrespect and demands of the betrayed spouse make the lover appear to be the only one who truly cares about the wayward spouse. They literally throw the wayward spouse into the arms of the lover.

On the other hand, if the betrayed spouse approaches the wayward spouse with respect and thoughtfulness, the cruelty and self-indulgence of the affair is much easier for the wayward spouse to understand. And once the wayward spouse's mistake is acknowledged, it's much easier for him or her to take the first step toward recovery by agreeing to never see or talk to the lover again.
here
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/29/15 02:52 PM
Originally Posted by Aerith
You overthink everything. You could just tell her - Hun, I feel uncomfortable purchasing women's stuff - could you take some time and go shopping and I will take kids out (or something like that).

If I were to suggest that... her body language would get a very hostile.. as if she is about to punish me. Se would say that I do not care about her or my family... just the idea that I would try to negotiate it would be offensive and I would be told to simply stop talking.
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From outside it looks like you are trying to justify separation/divorce and exaggerating her faults and minimizing yours. No need to justify that, it's your decision, and Dr Harley totally approves divorce on the ground of infidelity.

in a way, yes. I am trying to see if I am at the point that I have tried everything I can do;
I have not completely eliminated lovebusters (probably 90%, but not 100%)... the question that I am asking
#1 is 100% an achievable goal?
#2 given the stuff that I am having to put up with from her (demands, disrespect, AO's) on her side, is it possible for me to completely eliminate love busters on my side or am I trying to do the impossible??
#3 If I am able to get to 100% elimination of love busters...will it take 6 months+ for it to have an effect? can I put up with her for that long?
#4 With a pending divorce going on, it may be even more difficult...
I haven't talked much about this, but I am catching her in a lot of lies.. and big ones which is also weighting on me.
These are the honest questions that I am asking. With the legal stuff going on, I have a good opportunity to set in place plans for a plan B.. and possibly avoid all contact with her and I'm thinking that might be a good thing to at least start planning for.

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BTW, how are the kids health? Have you sorted out the issue with their treatment(s)?

Here is where is stands:
I met with the school.. they were of limited help, but they will monitor, record, and call me if there are any issues with Asthma, coughing etc.. The school nurse will listen to his chest. I can come in and give him inhalers. So far there have been no calls.. the biggest problems seem to be the morning / night.

I have convinced my son when he is miserable to take his rescue inhaler because he sees the value in it. He will not take his preventative. He said that he would take some other kind of medicine... so I looked into singulair (which is what I take.. but I read about side effects for kids and that worried me)

I was taking him also to speech, but my wife would complain every time I took him. I am basically stopping that now. She also won't let me take the kids to therapy, so that has stopped.

The kids overall health & emotional health is definitely not as good as it was before my wife came back, but they are OK.

I am still working on bonding with them but not disciplining them. I have found several activities that they like to do with me or we can do together. They love both parents a lot and this whole situation is heartbreaking for them.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/29/15 03:43 PM
Originally Posted by Aerith
From outside it looks like you are trying to justify separation/divorce and exaggerating her faults and minimizing yours.
I think that before the affair, the faults were 50/50... I can see that we both tried to solve conflict the wrong way after reading Dr Harley's books. Be were both controlling and abusive to each other. Two years ago, I did not know what to do about it, but I knew I didn't like it and I made the first attempt to reach out to her and improve things. Since the affair, I have been the only one trying to save the marriage. My marriage counselors would agree that I have put into practice everything that we discussed in counseling and my wife has done basically zero. That is probably a result of her having the affair. This is why it comes off that I am blaming her. I am making mistakes, but I am the only one doing anything to at least try to change.. I know all this goes without saying and this is the case with alot of affairs.
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/30/15 12:22 AM
Originally Posted by typicalman
She asked me to pick up some items tomorrow including feminine hygiene products... I feel demoralized doing it and I know there will be severe punishment from her if i don't pick up a single item on her list. Should I do it?

I have done it all the time, but if it bothers you, don't do it. Just politely say "I'm sorry, I don't feel comfortable picking up feminine hygiene products. I'll be happy to get everything else."

Then,

Let her decide how she is going to respond.

She may respond with demands, disrespect, or anger. If she does, just take it in stride and don't respond in kind. If she wants to ask why you don't feel comfortable or debate you, just say, "I don't know; it just makes me uncomfortable to do that." Don't make a big deal out of it. Let her decide how she wants to respond.

Meanwhile, try to find something else you can do for her instead that will make her really happy, and do it. My wife likes it when I bring her small gifts from the store. Something as simple as bringing her a soda or a bottle of nail polish means a lot to her.

The key is to keep it low key: don't make a big deal out of it. Don't debate her on how you should feel about the subject.

But if it were me, I'd get them. Have done so for years. Gonna have to do so for three or four daughters here in coming years, too.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/30/15 11:47 AM
I just got this. Before the affair, she never asked me to do this, but in the last 12 months she started to. I didn't mind alot.. especially if it would make her happy, but rather, it feels like a) she wants to punish me now and b) she wants me to get the wrong kind so she has ye another excuse to berate me.

Well.. I stopped and did the shopping last night. When I got to the aisle there was a little boy with a shopping cart blocking the product. I was too embarrassed to ask him to move so I could get something for my cheating, abusive wife who is divorcing me. I broke down in tears right there in the store. I cried all the way home. When I got home, she was not in the kitchen as usual, but when she found me... she asked why I didn't come to say hi to her... truth was that I was still crying. I said, sorry... I'll come give you a hug and a kiss.. she said "don't let your mitts touch me"... "you are the one that needs the feminine hygiene products"

It's true... I should be able to say no and do something else. If I had tried your suggestion with someone who would act reasonable I could have done it. Before the affair, I probably could have refused such a request.. I would have been punished, but now the threat of punishment is all too severe. I had been bringing home flowers and that sort of thing, but she usually finds something wrong with them.

Anyway, I'm sure you all know... I'm living with a space alien and not a regular parson right now so I will be put in "no win" situations time and time again. I will be set up for failure over and over... and negotiation is not a possibility. I'm going to leave her a little love note before I go to work today and I know a few things to say.

I'm starting to feel really sick though. I have been under incredible stress at work (end of year) and my lawyer sent me a note saying that my wife and her attorney had been lying to me. On Christmas day, my wife asked if I would take a day off to go to court and finish the divorce. I told her that I withdrew the divorce; she said that I was a liar so I showed her an email to my attorney that I was dismissing it. My lawyer said that she had heard from the other side just 2 days before Christmas that they had discussed my proposal to dismiss, but the other side did want to proceed. She didn't want to tell me right before Christmas. On Sunday, the day before I found out.. she was still asking me for money and asking me to make plans for her birthday even though she plans on being divorced in a couple weeks.

This is partially why I think that it's an opportune time to be planning plan B.. she will clearly divorce me and still plan to walk all over me, have me take her out to eat, take care of the kids, etc... while she lives a life of freedom. I would like to plan to pick the kids up from school and drop them off in the morning for 4 days/ week, then when it all goes through, I will go completely no-contact plan B.

I need to have some focus on my health, stress, career and keep myself in some kind of good shape for these kids. They are going to need me and rely on me until they are adults.

On another note... last night, I was watching her do something. For whatever reason, she wanted to do something her self and not ask me to do it for her. She never finished the task but she tried and I felt proud of her. It occurred to me at that moment that I still love her. I can't think of any logical reason why and according to Dr Harley's theories, I should hate her right now but I don't and the reason really escapes me.
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/30/15 04:03 PM
I think if you want to keep this marriage going you will have to weather some punishment for the time being. I had to weather a lot of it. Antidepressants will help substantially if you get your doctor to prescribe them and stay in regular contact with him to keep them well adjusted. At the very least this might help you to keep your head on straight long enough to plan a Plan B.

If you review what Dr. Harley says about the three states of mind in marriage, there are the states of withdrawal and the states of conflict, and typically what men have to do here is learn how to handle things when their wife is in these two stages. She will go back and forth. Dr. Harley says about a wife in withdrawal that "she will come out swinging" when she moves into conflict. It is absolutely true. She won't follow the rules - not any rules at all. It's incumbent on a husband to learn how to not respond with demands, disrespect, or anger, while simultaneously learning how to meet her emotional needs, while simultaneously learning how to not do things for her that are making him miserable.

If you review what Dr. Harley says about the Giver and the Taker, Plan A is all about bringing both of these on board. You may start out giving away the store in a desperate bid to make her happy, but over time you have to migrate away from these behaviors and find ways to make her happy that don't make you miserable. Your skill at this needs to be constantly increasing through practice and discovery. In the end all this does is offer her the chance of a happy marriage which she can choose to accept or reject, and you have to be ready for either possibility, knowing that eventually you will go to Plan B if she does not take you up on the offer. And simultaneously you have to fight the affair by exposing it to the entire world, confronting the other man, etc.
Posted By: WalkTheWalk Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/30/15 08:37 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
I just got this. Before the affair, she never asked me to do this, but in the last 12 months she started to. I didn't mind alot.. especially if it would make her happy, but rather, it feels like a) she wants to punish me now and b) she wants me to get the wrong kind so she has ye another excuse to berate me.

Well.. I stopped and did the shopping last night. When I got to the aisle there was a little boy with a shopping cart blocking the product. I was too embarrassed to ask him to move so I could get something for my cheating, abusive wife who is divorcing me. I broke down in tears right there in the store. I cried all the way home. When I got home, she was not in the kitchen as usual, but when she found me... she asked why I didn't come to say hi to her... truth was that I was still crying. I said, sorry... I'll come give you a hug and a kiss.. she said "don't let your mitts touch me"... "you are the one that needs the feminine hygiene products"

It's true... I should be able to say no and do something else. If I had tried your suggestion with someone who would act reasonable I could have done it. Before the affair, I probably could have refused such a request.. I would have been punished, but now the threat of punishment is all too severe. I had been bringing home flowers and that sort of thing, but she usually finds something wrong with them.

Anyway, I'm sure you all know... I'm living with a space alien and not a regular parson right now so I will be put in "no win" situations time and time again. I will be set up for failure over and over... and negotiation is not a possibility. I'm going to leave her a little love note before I go to work today and I know a few things to say.

I'm starting to feel really sick though. I have been under incredible stress at work (end of year) and my lawyer sent me a note saying that my wife and her attorney had been lying to me. On Christmas day, my wife asked if I would take a day off to go to court and finish the divorce. I told her that I withdrew the divorce; she said that I was a liar so I showed her an email to my attorney that I was dismissing it. My lawyer said that she had heard from the other side just 2 days before Christmas that they had discussed my proposal to dismiss, but the other side did want to proceed. She didn't want to tell me right before Christmas. On Sunday, the day before I found out.. she was still asking me for money and asking me to make plans for her birthday even though she plans on being divorced in a couple weeks.

This is partially why I think that it's an opportune time to be planning plan B.. she will clearly divorce me and still plan to walk all over me, have me take her out to eat, take care of the kids, etc... while she lives a life of freedom. I would like to plan to pick the kids up from school and drop them off in the morning for 4 days/ week, then when it all goes through, I will go completely no-contact plan B.

I need to have some focus on my health, stress, career and keep myself in some kind of good shape for these kids. They are going to need me and rely on me until they are adults.

On another note... last night, I was watching her do something. For whatever reason, she wanted to do something her self and not ask me to do it for her. She never finished the task but she tried and I felt proud of her. It occurred to me at that moment that I still love her. I can't think of any logical reason why and according to Dr Harley's theories, I should hate her right now but I don't and the reason really escapes me.


So Typical Man,
What's your Plan for Plan A? You are breaking down because you are feeling defeated. If you put together a plan and execute that plan, you will feel empowered and in control, confident, bullet proof even. So let's work on a plan.

I'll get you started:

TM's Plan A:
1) Become proficient at meeting WW's 3 most important ENs:
a. ____________
b. ___________
c. ____________

2) Become proficient at controlling my 3 most common LBs:
a. ____________
b. ____________
c. ____________

3) Remove these top 3 stressors that I can control (not the affair)
a. ____________
b. ____________
c. ____________

4) Take up these 2 healthy activities that I have wanted to but have never had the time/energy/permission to:
a. ____________
b. ____________

Once these goals have been populated, we can brainstorm HOW to achieve them.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/30/15 10:45 PM
Originally Posted by WalkTheWalk
Originally Posted by typicalman
I just got this. Before the affair, she never asked me to do this, but in the last 12 months she started to. I didn't mind alot.. especially if it would make her happy, but rather, it feels like a) she wants to punish me now and b) she wants me to get the wrong kind so she has ye another excuse to berate me.

Well.. I stopped and did the shopping last night. When I got to the aisle there was a little boy with a shopping cart blocking the product. I was too embarrassed to ask him to move so I could get something for my cheating, abusive wife who is divorcing me. I broke down in tears right there in the store. I cried all the way home. When I got home, she was not in the kitchen as usual, but when she found me... she asked why I didn't come to say hi to her... truth was that I was still crying. I said, sorry... I'll come give you a hug and a kiss.. she said "don't let your mitts touch me"... "you are the one that needs the feminine hygiene products"

It's true... I should be able to say no and do something else. If I had tried your suggestion with someone who would act reasonable I could have done it. Before the affair, I probably could have refused such a request.. I would have been punished, but now the threat of punishment is all too severe. I had been bringing home flowers and that sort of thing, but she usually finds something wrong with them.

Anyway, I'm sure you all know... I'm living with a space alien and not a regular parson right now so I will be put in "no win" situations time and time again. I will be set up for failure over and over... and negotiation is not a possibility. I'm going to leave her a little love note before I go to work today and I know a few things to say.

I'm starting to feel really sick though. I have been under incredible stress at work (end of year) and my lawyer sent me a note saying that my wife and her attorney had been lying to me. On Christmas day, my wife asked if I would take a day off to go to court and finish the divorce. I told her that I withdrew the divorce; she said that I was a liar so I showed her an email to my attorney that I was dismissing it. My lawyer said that she had heard from the other side just 2 days before Christmas that they had discussed my proposal to dismiss, but the other side did want to proceed. She didn't want to tell me right before Christmas. On Sunday, the day before I found out.. she was still asking me for money and asking me to make plans for her birthday even though she plans on being divorced in a couple weeks.

This is partially why I think that it's an opportune time to be planning plan B.. she will clearly divorce me and still plan to walk all over me, have me take her out to eat, take care of the kids, etc... while she lives a life of freedom. I would like to plan to pick the kids up from school and drop them off in the morning for 4 days/ week, then when it all goes through, I will go completely no-contact plan B.

I need to have some focus on my health, stress, career and keep myself in some kind of good shape for these kids. They are going to need me and rely on me until they are adults.

On another note... last night, I was watching her do something. For whatever reason, she wanted to do something her self and not ask me to do it for her. She never finished the task but she tried and I felt proud of her. It occurred to me at that moment that I still love her. I can't think of any logical reason why and according to Dr Harley's theories, I should hate her right now but I don't and the reason really escapes me.


So Typical Man,
What's your Plan for Plan A? You are breaking down because you are feeling defeated. If you put together a plan and execute that plan, you will feel empowered and in control, confident, bullet proof even. So let's work on a plan.

I'll get you started:

TM's Plan A:
1) Become proficient at meeting WW's 3 most important ENs:
a. ____________
b. ___________
c. ____________

2) Become proficient at controlling my 3 most common LBs:
a. ____________
b. ____________
c. ____________

3) Remove these top 3 stressors that I can control (not the affair)
a. ____________
b. ____________
c. ____________

4) Take up these 2 healthy activities that I have wanted to but have never had the time/energy/permission to:
a. ____________
b. ____________

Once these goals have been populated, we can brainstorm HOW to achieve them.

This is a good list....

I have made a lot of changes in the last 12 months focusing on emotional needs, but her wall seems to be up.
1. Family commitment
2. Conversation
3. Open and Honest

Love busters... I am struggling as you can see to get to 100%, but I am A LOT better than a year ago... problem is that I am "baited" constantly to get involved in a fight of have an AO.


She was in withdrawal for months when she moved away. Since she has been back, she has been in a state of conflict almost all the time. I think that what is going on with the state of conflict is that she is trying to prove her case for divorce... she is working really hard to prove it is all my fault... it doesn't seem to be the kind of conflict where she wants to move to intimacy... but rather the other way.

I could be making lb deposits though without realizing it... she seems to see people as all good or all bad.. so going from a state of hating me to intimacy has been like a light switch in the past... but it's hard to tell if I am making any headway.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/30/15 10:59 PM
1) I think youre still lovebusting big with out realizing it. 2) she lives in one BIG, FAT lovevuster so you are constantly behind the eight-ball to start. 3) any man who finds a woman's normal bodily functions shameful will be love busting constantly without realizing it.

You need to make a Plan A plan and execute hard. You still find something lovable in her so she must not be a totally worhtless human.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/30/15 11:00 PM
I'm going to try to find a clip from a previous show to put your marriage before the affair in the appropriate context.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/30/15 11:33 PM
Originally Posted by apples123
1) I think youre still lovebusting big with out realizing it. 2) she lives in one BIG, FAT lovevuster so you are constantly behind the eight-ball to start. 3) any man who finds a woman's normal bodily functions shameful will be love busting constantly without realizing it.

You need to make a Plan A plan and execute hard. You still find something lovable in her so she must not be a totally worhtless human.

On 1, yes.. I think I underestimated the fact that the bar is raised sooo high now because she is trying to prove me bad..(I think Dr Harley talked about this recently) I thought I reduced love busters, but I didn't count on the bar being raised so high.

On 2, this is hard... I cannot move in the middle of a Divorce.. and I am the only breadwinner for the family.. so yes throwing my career down the toilet for someone that wants to divorce me is hard pill to swallow. It's also hard for me to measure how big of an issue it really is for her... she wants to live on the beach.. yes, I get it... but I can't be married to someone that spends half the year going to the beach.. I will be resentful of that and I need an equal partner in life.

#3.. this has nothing to do with bodily functions.. .it has to do with feeling taken advantage of; If she loved me, I could do almost anything for her and feel fine about it.. I am motivated to make her happy. A relationship that is so one sided just took a toll on me.. I felt that she wanted to embarrass me on purpose... she stayed home all day and she could have easily done this herself.

What I found lovable about her is that she was doing something for herself.. .not making me do it. I fell in love with her and married her originally because she seemed to be a hardworking person and she was my true partner in life.. we worked together. I saw a glimpse of that possibility... where we could actually help eachother do something and not me just do everything for her.

The Biggest problem, you are right is love busters and I didn't know it... no matter how good I can do on the love busters, I need to make some deposits somehow though.
Posted By: AnyWife Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/31/15 12:00 AM
Originally Posted by typicalman
#3.. this has nothing to do with bodily functions.. .it has to do with feeling taken advantage of; If she loved me, I could do almost anything for her and feel fine about it.. I am motivated to make her happy. A relationship that is so one sided just took a toll on me.. I felt that she wanted to embarrass me on purpose... she stayed home all day and she could have easily done this herself.

I also would not assume that a reluctance to buy these items had anything to do with finding female body functions shameful. I know plenty of people, men and women, who are uncomfortable buying anything "personal." (You might also be self conscious buying preparation H or condoms for yourself...)

But I think the love buster you need to be careful of here is Disrespectful Judgments. You are trying to read her mind and assign motives to her requests. "She's trying to humiliate you." You may be 100% correct and it's normal to believe we know why our spouse says/does something, but the truth is you don't know, and regardless, it is a love buster to express that.

I'm sure it is very frustrating to be told you are love busting when she's doing every love buster in the book to you, but you can't control her, only yourself.

As for the way you feel she "punishes" you. Maybe Marcos or some others MB Vets can give some more examples, but it seems there is a difference between you plan A-ing and not LB-ing her, and you accepting abusive treatment from her.

You seem very afraid of "getting in trouble" from her. She is not your mommy! You are both grown adults. How can you possibly be "in trouble" when you are a grown man?

You know she's trying to goad you (but don't express that - LB!) so how do you react where you are not LB-ing back but also not accepting abuse? You go to the store and do buy the feminine hygiene products then she berates you for the wrong type. Or you don't buy them, and she berates you for that. What can you do?

My thought is to walk away. If she follows, leave or lock her out of the room you go into. I'm not sure if that's the best reaction - hopefully some will give suggestions. But what I would NOT do is debated you actions "Well I was trying too... but I thought... but you said..." and I would NEVER apologize when you haven't done anything wrong. She complains? Noted. She's unhappy. Noted. That does not mean you are a failure or wrong or owe her any kind of an apology. You're not glad she's unhappy, but you also aren't guilty of anything.

Do something else nice for her - an unrequested surprise. And when she complains about that, shrug it off. She's in conflict. She's going to complain about everything. But at some level she knows you did something nice for her.

Remember, she's trying to push you away and justify HER bad behavior by rewriting you as a monster right now. That's all her. Cowering in the face of that is not attractive.

AND YES - Please get on AD's if you haven't already. They may help so much you won't believe it.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/31/15 01:32 AM
We don't recommend Plan A forever. The bar does raise on the way out of withdrawal. ( my H would tell you the bar is about to Neptune here.) part of the problems yall are facing are because the bar was too low before. There will be a day when she needs to carry her end of things. But give it your best shot and follow the plan.
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/31/15 02:16 AM
Originally Posted by AnyWife
I also would not assume that a reluctance to buy these items had anything to do with finding female body functions shameful.

Right, in negotiation you don't state why somebody feels the way they do, because that's disrespectful. You just accept at face value that your spouse is reluctant about your proposal, and move on to look for something they are enthusiastic about instead.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/31/15 07:15 PM
here is my plan A.. doesn't seem to be working so I've posted it for criticism / feedback

ll get you started:

TM's Plan A:
1) Become proficient at meeting WW's 3 most important ENs:
a. Family Commitment... home for dinner every night, time with children every night until they go to bed. Family activities every weekend. Allow wife to give the discipline, but just support her.
b. Conversation... greet wife every day when returning home. being available to talk after kids are in bed. Eye contact. validation.. nods, repeating, etc.. empathizing with her even if issues are trivial.
c. Open and honest... allowing her to go through my phone, disclosing where I go and what I do. Revealing my events of the day etc...
d. Admiration.. at least one or more compliments each day; leaving notes in the morning

2) Become proficient at controlling my 3 most common LBs:
a. Disrespect.. no name calling, no "you" statements, no always/never
b. AO's.. no yelling, time outs, deep breaths, no door slamming
c. Demands.. no complaining about house being clean, taking two cars to church
3) Remove these top 3 stressors that I can control (not the affair)
a. Getting exercise, sleep, and treating allergies
b. ____________
c. ____________

4) Take up these 2 healthy activities that I have wanted to but have never had the time/energy/permission to:
a. Teaching Religious Education____________
b. ____________

Offering time for UA, Dates, Dinners out with kids 1x/week

Once these goals have been populated, we can brainstorm HOW to achieve them.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 12/31/15 07:29 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by AnyWife
I also would not assume that a reluctance to buy these items had anything to do with finding female body functions shameful.

Right, in negotiation you don't state why somebody feels the way they do, because that's disrespectful. You just accept at face value that your spouse is reluctant about your proposal, and move on to look for something they are enthusiastic about instead.

I figured out what the problem really was..
Yes, it's slightly embarrassing for me, but not too bad.
After a long hard day of work, I have to stand in this aisle.. look at every box; pads, liners, tampons, different brands, different size boxes, high flow, medium, light etc.. and hope that I am picking the right one. It's not easy for a guy to figure all that out especially when he is under alot of stress. I am standing there for a while.. missing dinner at home with my kids. Stopping at the GS is a pain it itself when you have 10 random things to get scattered all over the store and you don't know where anything is. If she had gone herself, she would have found that box in 1/2 second. When we had a sex life, I knew her cycles like clockwork and now there has been nothing in almost a year and I have been 100% faithful to her.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/05/16 12:44 PM
You can see my previous post about plan A.. trying to be home more; more time with the kids; family commitment.

last night, i was working after the kids were in bed ~10PM or so. My WW came and asked why I was working.. then she want on to say that the old me would be at the office and now I am just lazy for working at home and I just want to get fired. I used to be a hard worker. The reality is, I worked a long day, I worked all weekend, I came home and cleaned the house, spent time with the kids, put them to bed, then started working again.

I am starting to look for somewhere else to move to and planning my plan B. (by the way, there were some open houses in the neighborhood and she seemed to get really concerned that I would look at them which is really ironic given that she wants to divorce me) As I imagine myself in plan B, I seem to be looking forward to it. Over the last several days, I have worked alot, seen the kids and gone to bed and had little contact with my WW. The less I contact her, the happier I become and the less motivated I am to make any contact with her. Any advice on how to deal with this "spiral" I am in... out of plan A?

I have been thinking about how illogical this divorce is that she is pushing given that she sits at home with no real job and is making zero preparations to be on her own. Meanwhile, on plan A, she is being treated pretty well at home... at least well enough that she should be in no rush to leave. The only positive for her with the divorce is that it would give her more freedom... Freedom for what? The affair. Thats the only thing I can think of that could be going on. I have no evidence, but the only explanation that I can come up with as to why I am having such a difficult time is that this affair is alive and well. I have no other evidence... she guards her phone... she is moving money into a private account that I cannot see. Is there any other way to find out if that is it?
Do I need to find out given there is nothing I can do about it?
Posted By: NebDane Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/05/16 01:10 PM
she guards her phone... she is moving money into a private account that I cannot see. Is there any other way to find out if that is it?

So, yes she is still having contact with someone that is inappropriate at the least, and she is building her "war chest" with the funds you provide her.

You never fund a wayward, you are enabling her. You stop paying for the affair phone.
You can do things differently with your finances, and i am sure your lawyer would advise the same.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/05/16 02:10 PM
Should I put money directly into our joint accout... of course she can still clear that out, or give her nothing, and just say sorry... you need groceries, let's go shopping together?

I was thinking of having my lawyer send her a letter stating why she is no longer getting money so it does not have to come from me.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/05/16 02:39 PM
Stop putting money in the account. Move your finances to a different bank.

Do you need to explain it?

Also, make sure your lawyer gets the info on that account as a part of the divorce discovery. You are entitled to your share. (i really hate thieves). Pull her credit report too. You may be able to request debts obtained since divorce proceedings started be considered solely hers.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/05/16 02:41 PM
Stock the fridge and pantry. If she needs more, she can pull it from her stash. Or you could give her a present. 😷
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/05/16 03:24 PM
Originally Posted by apples123
Stock the fridge and pantry. If she needs more, she can pull it from her stash. Or you could give her a present. 😷


Yes,, I was thinking that. She has her own part time job too... This is what is really bazaar... She wants to divorce ASAP, but she cannot even buy food for herself? It makes no sense.

In my lovely state (Gob bless Texas), she cannot get spousal support given that we are married less than 10 years. If she were to hold out one more year, she might be able to claim spousal support.. this again, from her perspective, it makes no logical sense to divorce me now.

Nothing seems to add up... except this affair waiting in the wings. The OM cannot provide FS for her either.

didn't know what this means "&#128567"
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/05/16 03:26 PM
laugh
Posted By: WrestlerChemist Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/05/16 03:31 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Yes,, I was thinking that. She has her own part time job too... This is what is really bazaar... She wants to divorce ASAP, but she cannot even buy food for herself? It makes no sense.

In my lovely state (Gob bless Texas), she cannot get spousal support given that we are married less than 10 years. If she were to hold out one more year, she might be able to claim spousal support.. this again, from her perspective, it makes no logical sense to divorce me now.

Nothing seems to add up... except this affair waiting in the wings. The OM cannot provide FS for her either.

didn't know what this means "&#128567"

Nothing about affairs make sense... I am still scratching my head at the things my wife has done/said in the midst of her affair. All a huge lie... dontknow

Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/05/16 03:54 PM
Yes, my ww has turned her into a habitual liar...

There is a alternative explanation to her keeping her phone secret... she knows that I will use her phone against her.. eg I found texts proving that she was drinking with the kids in the car.

With the money, given that she is pushing for divorce, it makes sense that she would try to stockpile whatever she can... by taking it, she is really only hurting herself because taking money meant to buy food for the kids simply cannot make her look good.

The divorce itself is what does not make sence. She seems to have no plans to move out or have me stop supporting her, but at least with a divorce.. she could then be free to go as she pleases and have sex with the OM while I still meet her other EN's. I'm thinking that this is the most likely scenereo. Given that I exposed the affair, she would still keep that relationship underground... no plans to move in with him... just friends with benefits. It's probably why a TV show about divorced women running around with other men is so appealing to her now.
Posted By: NebDane Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/05/16 04:10 PM
Nothing and I repeat NOTHING is logical about an adulterous affair. The brain of a wayward appears to get rewired, they become liars, thiefs, cheaters, etc. Their moral compass becomes twisted.
The wayward will remain in this state until they withdraw and/or the FOG is lifted. Some will remain in that state, as it becomes their new normal.

There is nothing to gain by trying to understand their craziness. You will only drive yourself nuts, because they are no longer in their "right" mind.


Posted By: Ron_C Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/05/16 10:07 PM
Originally Posted by NebDane
Nothing and I repeat NOTHING is logical about an adulterous affair. The brain of a wayward appears to get rewired, they become liars, thiefs, cheaters, etc. Their moral compass becomes twisted.
The wayward will remain in this state until they withdraw and/or the FOG is lifted. Some will remain in that state, as it becomes their new normal.

There is nothing to gain by trying to understand their craziness. You will only drive yourself nuts, because they are no longer in their "right" mind.

I can say the same think about my WW, nothing makes since at all.
It's sad to think thy could stay in that state of mind as a new normal.

Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/05/16 11:01 PM
Originally Posted by Ron_C
Originally Posted by NebDane
Nothing and I repeat NOTHING is logical about an adulterous affair. The brain of a wayward appears to get rewired, they become liars, thiefs, cheaters, etc. Their moral compass becomes twisted.
The wayward will remain in this state until they withdraw and/or the FOG is lifted. Some will remain in that state, as it becomes their new normal.

There is nothing to gain by trying to understand their craziness. You will only drive yourself nuts, because they are no longer in their "right" mind.

I can say the same think about my WW, nothing makes since at all.
It's sad to think thy could stay in that state of mind as a new normal.

I thought that eventually, they come out of it.. but the affair has to die a natural death right?

Is it possible that exposure has pushed the affair underground so that it remains a fantasy? My exposure had to be effective because she was MAD!!! (words cannot describe how mad she was), but, what she was able to do with alot of her close family/friends was make the "old time friend" claim, so he is just not going to go away completely.. she managed to keep him around and see him periodically.. after all, he is just a friend, right?

I would assume that the FOG lasts a long time when the OP is still lingering around and long distance on top of it. I would still think that at some point this becomes more trouble than it is worth and the FOG lifts?????
Posted By: Ron_C Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/05/16 11:56 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by Ron_C
Originally Posted by NebDane
Nothing and I repeat NOTHING is logical about an adulterous affair. The brain of a wayward appears to get rewired, they become liars, thiefs, cheaters, etc. Their moral compass becomes twisted.
The wayward will remain in this state until they withdraw and/or the FOG is lifted. Some will remain in that state, as it becomes their new normal.

There is nothing to gain by trying to understand their craziness. You will only drive yourself nuts, because they are no longer in their "right" mind.

I can say the same think about my WW, nothing makes since at all.
It's sad to think thy could stay in that state of mind as a new normal.

I thought that eventually, they come out of it.. but the affair has to die a natural death right?

Is it possible that exposure has pushed the affair underground so that it remains a fantasy? My exposure had to be effective because she was MAD!!! (words cannot describe how mad she was), but, what she was able to do with alot of her close family/friends was make the "old time friend" claim, so he is just not going to go away completely.. she managed to keep him around and see him periodically.. after all, he is just a friend, right?

I would assume that the FOG lasts a long time when the OP is still lingering around and long distance on top of it. I would still think that at some point this becomes more trouble than it is worth and the FOG lifts?????

Well here is my situation, exposure killed my WW affair. But as soon as it dies she got on dating sites and started up affairs with Co worker's and guy at the place she volunteers at and went on a bunch of dates and know she got she is seeing exclusively.
She is still in the fog, and is anger I have a lawer and she things I am stealing her kids.

Go figure, but I think a big part of it is what Doc Harley talking about. That it's a mind set if this relationship is not working so it's time to move on and find one that does, then I found the right relationship. So pretty much a renter.

Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/06/16 03:29 AM
Originally Posted by Ron_C
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by Ron_C
Originally Posted by NebDane
Nothing and I repeat NOTHING is logical about an adulterous affair. The brain of a wayward appears to get rewired, they become liars, thiefs, cheaters, etc. Their moral compass becomes twisted.
The wayward will remain in this state until they withdraw and/or the FOG is lifted. Some will remain in that state, as it becomes their new normal.

There is nothing to gain by trying to understand their craziness. You will only drive yourself nuts, because they are no longer in their "right" mind.

I can say the same think about my WW, nothing makes since at all.
It's sad to think thy could stay in that state of mind as a new normal.

I thought that eventually, they come out of it.. but the affair has to die a natural death right?

Is it possible that exposure has pushed the affair underground so that it remains a fantasy? My exposure had to be effective because she was MAD!!! (words cannot describe how mad she was), but, what she was able to do with alot of her close family/friends was make the "old time friend" claim, so he is just not going to go away completely.. she managed to keep him around and see him periodically.. after all, he is just a friend, right?

I would assume that the FOG lasts a long time when the OP is still lingering around and long distance on top of it. I would still think that at some point this becomes more trouble than it is worth and the FOG lifts?????

Well here is my situation, exposure killed my WW affair. But as soon as it dies she got on dating sites and started up affairs with Co worker's and guy at the place she volunteers at and went on a bunch of dates and know she got she is seeing exclusively.
She is still in the fog, and is anger I have a lawer and she things I am stealing her kids.

Go figure, but I think a big part of it is what Doc Harley talking about. That it's a mind set if this relationship is not working so it's time to move on and find one that does, then I found the right relationship. So pretty much a renter.


hmmm... yes, I definitely identify with the renter idea. I also keep remembering that Dr Harley said that when you let your emotions lead your life, you are destined for a life of Chaos... and it really sounds like these women are just letting emotions guide them blindly. Dr Harley's program is about doing the opposite of your instincts because you understand the logic of it. Plan A is completely opposite of what your instincts tell you to do.

Dr Harley talks about Romantic love and it' s the right way to have a marriage because it is the glue that can hold you together. Marriage vows on the other hand are a promise to love the other person until death. To me that means doing the opposite of your instincts.. that is making the choice to love and the commitment of a marriage vow. The whole point of the marriage vow is that if the feeling of romantic love is lost, you don't simply get walking papers.. you follow a program like Dr Harley's to fix the problem and restore that love. I would suppose that is a buyer... you fix the house, you don't just walk away. I am amazed that the wedding vow is so meaningless to people.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/06/16 04:50 PM
I was in my office with my son and we were talking about designs for his sacramental candle that we are making. He was a little frustrated that something came out of the printer the wrong way, but he was not not yelling at all... just frustrated. She walks in and starts saying whats wrong? what is "being done to you in here?" he said "nothing". I went to the next room and told her that what she was saying was hurtful and inappropriate. She said, "so, you are abusing the children?" I said this is ridiculous, inappropriate, and hurtful, the way you are talking. I said something like... have a cup of coffee sweetie, it seems you are not having the best morning. She says that is inappropriate that I call her "sweetie".

To me.. this is beyond WW crazy, this is mental hospital crazy. She had stopped the child abuse stuff for a while, so I was OK continuing plan A.. but now I am feeling I need to get the kids out of there again. Am I over-reacting?

I have a realtor showing me some houses at the end of the week. I was thinking of sitting down with her tonight to sketch up a child visitation schedule... then as soon as I find something suitable, we close, and I'm out.. Once in a safe place, I will send her the plan B letter.
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/06/16 05:11 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
To me.. this is beyond WW crazy, this is mental hospital crazy.

No, it isn't.
Posted By: markos Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/06/16 05:12 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
I was thinking of sitting down with her tonight to sketch up a child visitation schedule...

You don't make Plan B preparations with your spouse.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/06/16 05:13 PM
typicalman, you have shown an inability to commit to Plan A -- you continue the lovebusters. Finalize your Plan B preparations (without consulting your wife) and move on.
Posted By: NebDane Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/06/16 05:38 PM
She is trying to set you up for child abuse claim or a RO. Protect yourself with that VAR. You can never argue with her at this point, so don't. It is a lovebuster anyway.

You calling her out on her behavior toward you was correct.
Your response about a cup of coffee was almost right, but then you put in the judgement.

In this case she is very aware of exactly what she is doing and why.
As stated above, NEVER, EVER negotiate with a wayward about anything. A wayward will break the agreement in 2 sec.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/06/16 05:41 PM
You have no idea what mental hospital level of dysfunction is. I suggest you remove the word "crazy" from vocabulary.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/06/16 06:17 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
typicalman, you have shown an inability to commit to Plan A -- you continue the lovebusters. Finalize your Plan B preparations (without consulting your wife) and move on.

What was the love buster? I tried to just tell her how it was making me feel... what she was saying. No demands, no judgement (I judged the action.. it was inappropriate for me and hurt me) but not her. I brought her a cup of coffee.. If that is a love buster, I am at a loss.

I have posted my plan A.. I do think I have done as much as I can for as long as I can.. but given the child abuse stuff, i think that is the point where " I can't take it anymore" I won't let my plan A attempts hurt the children.

It's clear that this affair is going on.. she is divorcing me anyway.. I can't stop that.

It is time to take care of me a bit here so I am not too broken and beaten down for my kids... so, yes this seems to be the clear time for plan B.

I was going to propose a 50/50 visitation schedule with the kids... if she can agree to it, I send it to the attorney and they draft it up.. that seems to be the best way. I'll meet my attorney today so see if it's possible to get that done behind the scenes.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/06/16 07:31 PM
you are right.. I've been in a mental ward (through a job I had when I was young) and I know someone who recently stayed in one. It's not that kind of crazy... and to tell the truth, we run into people who say all kinds of outrageous things at work and in the public all the time, but we don't know them, we don't know all the context and what is in character or out of character for them. We are not married to these people ... and for someone I am married to and I know so well to wake us an accuse me of child abuse while we are designing a cross to put in a candle just seems over the top outrageous to me. She ultimately said, Ok, if you didn't abuse him, at least admit that you rigged the printer so that it would malfunction and frustrate our son on purpose. It's so over the top preposterous... I am beyond words to describe what it is other than crazy.. it just comes out of no where. It's like someone saying bazaar things completely out of context that make no sense. Am I describing well enough what is going on here?
Posted By: LearnedTooLate Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/06/16 08:51 PM
Are you Documenting the facts surrounding these incidences?

Read the; "Document, Document, Document" thread in the Notable Posts subforum section and follow that precisely.

Leave emotions out of the Documentation and stick strictly to the facts.

Also, using a VAR Anytime you speak with her is sound advice.

LTL
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/06/16 09:18 PM
Here DOCUMENT DOCUMENT DOCUMENT
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/06/16 09:26 PM
I had my VOR's turned off because she had been good for at least a month. I was thinking that an added benefit to solving a visitation schedule now is that maybe she will stop doing this. She knows that I want full custody... so thus may be self defense for her... thus, if I sign 50% custody, my hope is that she will back down and chill out.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/06/16 09:31 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
I had my VOR's turned off because she had been good for at least a month. I was thinking that an added benefit to solving a visitation schedule now is that maybe she will stop doing this. She knows that I want full custody... so thus may be self defense for her... thus, if I sign 50% custody, my hope is that she will back down and chill out.

That is neither Plan A nor Plan B. Don't play games. Just go to Plan B.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/06/16 10:06 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by typicalman
I had my VOR's turned off because she had been good for at least a month. I was thinking that an added benefit to solving a visitation schedule now is that maybe she will stop doing this. She knows that I want full custody... so thus may be self defense for her... thus, if I sign 50% custody, my hope is that she will back down and chill out.

That is neither Plan A nor Plan B. Don't play games. Just go to Plan B.

I am planning for it... two things I need #1 a house and #2 agreed visitation schedule. I cannot walk out on the kids without a signed / agreed visitation schedule. Then, I am out... and I will send her the plan B letter.

This is going to take 1 or 2 months at least.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/07/16 04:00 AM
OK... I know this post is going to get a reaction.. "so what".. I am finding out more an more lies that she tells me... an example; we discussed getting Christmas cards... I gave her money to get them and send them out. we talked about it every few days... did you get the Christmas cards? did you send them out? She said she finally got them and they are all sent out.

We'll, now that I am talking to people, I am finding out one at a time that they did not get a card from us.

OK, big deal.. she lied, right...?

I understand WS's lie... but she is lying about things that she KNOWS I will find out about. Who does that? People lie in hopes they won't get caught... not when they know they will get caught. I have found many lies like this. I this normal?
Posted By: BlairBluefin Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/07/16 05:25 AM
You don't need a visitation schedule agreed-upon before you go into Plan B. You can just follow the statutes for your state or province and go through your IM for visitation changes.

I wouldn't be giving my WS money to send out Christmas cards. I would either send out my own cards or just not give her the extra money. More than likely, she used the money to fund her affair.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/07/16 12:33 PM
Originally Posted by BlairBluefin
You don't need a visitation schedule agreed-upon before you go into Plan B. You can just follow the statutes for your state or province and go through your IM for visitation changes.

I wouldn't be giving my WS money to send out Christmas cards. I would either send out my own cards or just not give her the extra money. More than likely, she used the money to fund her affair.

After exposure, she hid the kids from me. I had to file for divorce and get visitation orders just to see them. She only agreed to those orders through the summer (the kids came back to live with me) she thought she would get them back for the school year.. but when the judge said no (and it's funny, the last thing the judge asked was if the kids had been with the OM... she waffled) she decided to move back home and thus we have had no visitation agreement.

The amount of $/ Christmas card was not alot; she knew I would find out; So why would she risk me cutting her off altogether over a lie like that?
Posted By: NebDane Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/07/16 01:10 PM
Again, waywards don't care about commitments, or money, or who they hurt, or especially their spouse.

Stop trying to understand it, she is a liar, cheat, thief, a morally busted person, very similar to a drug addict.
She won't change until the FOG lifts or affair is over. I guarantee there are going to be more things you find out about, you can't change them or understand them.

STOP FUNDING HER AFFAIR.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/07/16 03:22 PM
Yesterday... I asked her out to the movies Friday. She looked at me like I was a space alien. She did not say no and I assume she'll take some time to figure out an excuse not to go before then, but at least I asked.. and I could tell it got the gears in her mind churning and she seemed very confused and taken off guard. Any advice on how to further entice her to go? I was going to print the movies and showtimes so perhaps something catches her eye that she wants to see.

This morning, she asked me to go buy some new barstools for the kitchen and paint them today... my plan for the day is to go look at other houses and I have the Realtor and appointments lined up (she doesn't know that). This just shows (I think) she really doesn't comprehend what divorce means and hasn't thought this through. I'm getting hope that plan B & divorce will be quite an eye opening experience for her.

(I know this sounds weird.. I've been working so many days straight & over the holidays, so I just took two days off)
Posted By: WrestlerChemist Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/07/16 03:47 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Yesterday... I asked her out to the movies Friday. She looked at me like I was a space alien. She did not say no and I assume she'll take some time to figure out an excuse not to go before then, but at least I asked.. and I could tell it got the gears in her mind churning and she seemed very confused and taken off guard. Any advice on how to further entice her to go? I was going to print the movies and showtimes so perhaps something catches her eye that she wants to see.

This morning, she asked me to go buy some new barstools for the kitchen and paint them today... my plan for the day is to go look at other houses and I have the Realtor and appointments lined up (she doesn't know that). This just shows (I think) she really doesn't comprehend what divorce means and hasn't thought this through. I'm getting hope that plan B & divorce will be quite an eye opening experience for her.

(I know this sounds weird.. I've been working so many days straight & over the holidays, so I just took two days off)

I would go get the barstools and paint them.

This is perfect Plan A stuff. The movies and "seeing her mind churning" does not happen in Plan B. I think you should keep trying Plan A as long as you can.

In Plan B, you never see her, never talk to her, never ask her to do anything... If you never give her any good changing things in Plan A to digest before Plan B, then it sounds like it could be very difficult to win her over in Plan B alone.

But I have only been familiar with MB for a few months so I am not super knowledgeable about each subject...
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/07/16 03:48 PM
So what did you say about the barstools?
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/07/16 03:52 PM
Ok... I'll get the barstools... they are not that expensive. Would it really be a good plan A thing given that we would not be spending time together... me alone in the garage painting???
Posted By: NebDane Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/07/16 04:58 PM
Invite her to do the painting with you and going to get them.

Posted By: LearnedTooLate Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/07/16 09:37 PM
You could have gotten the Christmas Cards immediately upon her request to purchase them and invited her to go shopping for them with you.

Once you and her had the Cards at home, you two together could have looked up addresses and signed your personalized salutations Together, to your Friends and Family members.

You need to learn more about taking advantage of Plan A activities and JUMP at ANY opportunities as they present themselves.

Did you read through the, "Document, Document, Document" thread link that Brain Hurts posted for your benefit?

LTL
Posted By: WalkTheWalk Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/07/16 10:18 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
here is my plan A.. doesn't seem to be working so I've posted it for criticism / feedback

ll get you started:

TM's Plan A:
1) Become proficient at meeting WW's 3 most important ENs:
a. Family Commitment... home for dinner every night, time with children every night until they go to bed. Family activities every weekend. Allow wife to give the discipline, but just support her.
b. Conversation... greet wife every day when returning home. being available to talk after kids are in bed. Eye contact. validation.. nods, repeating, etc.. empathizing with her even if issues are trivial.
c. Open and honest... allowing her to go through my phone, disclosing where I go and what I do. Revealing my events of the day etc...
d. Admiration.. at least one or more compliments each day; leaving notes in the morning

2) Become proficient at controlling my 3 most common LBs:
a. Disrespect.. no name calling, no "you" statements, no always/never
b. AO's.. no yelling, time outs, deep breaths, no door slamming
c. Demands.. no complaining about house being clean, taking two cars to church
3) Remove these top 3 stressors that I can control (not the affair)
a. Getting exercise, sleep, and treating allergies
b. ____________
c. ____________

4) Take up these 2 healthy activities that I have wanted to but have never had the time/energy/permission to:
a. Teaching Religious Education____________
b. ____________

Offering time for UA, Dates, Dinners out with kids 1x/week

Once these goals have been populated, we can brainstorm HOW to achieve them.


Hi Typicalman,
looks like you have some good things on Plan A, and if you want to keep Plan A'ing up until you actually move to a Plan B, the I have a couple of pointers...

1) Do Plan A activities because you are in agreement that those are thing that a good husband does, and you want to be a good husband. Please do not do anything because you have certain expectations of a given response from your WW. You need to do these things without any associated expectations. It seems that you do have specific expectations which are rarely met, so you get upset/frustrated/demoralized. If you have no expectations, you cannot be disappointed.

2) Stop trying to get inside your WW's head. Stop trying to figure out what she is going to do or think. Execute your plan because it is the right thing to do. Build the habits that good husbands have because you will need those habits whether you stay married or get divorced and ever meet someone else. Accept that your WW will continue to be completely incomprehensible until she emerges from her fog, and manage your own self.
Posted By: LostOnLeftCoast Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/07/16 10:33 PM
Very good advice from WTW. I'm applying it to my situation as well!
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/07/16 10:56 PM
Sounds like a plan
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/08/16 11:13 AM
I just learned yesterday, my ww is dragging me to court today and I have to go. It's hard to be in plan A when you are being sued. I'll still ask her out to lunch or the movies after I suppose.
Posted By: NebDane Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/08/16 01:03 PM
What does your attorney say about this? Nobody gets dragged to court with 1 day notice.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/08/16 01:38 PM
The date was always there... I petitioned the court to have the divorce thrown out... she still wanted it, so I just got an answer yesterday from the court that they still expect us to be there. My lawyer petitioned as well that we should not have to show up (doesn't seem to fit with plan A).. the court says that we have to be there.
Posted By: NebDane Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/08/16 02:36 PM
that is very strange behavior by the court. Keep us posted on this weird development.
Maybe you will learn something about her tactics/strategy, waywards are stupid and will often reveal all their plans when confronted by authority.



Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/08/16 09:59 PM
I can give a more detailed post later about what happened. Basically, the lawyers said.. couple was trying to reconcile, but now they want to go forward with divorce and they will work out an agreement but they need more time. The judge extended us about 90 days to finalize a divorce. After, we went for a cup of coffee... I asked her to go to the movies again, and all she wanted to talk about was me giving her the kids most of the time and 1/2 the house. I basically just said no. She has continued to want to try to talk about it at home and she says that she is hurt that I am not giving her what she wants. I also suggested that we do this through the lawyers instead, but she doesn't want to.
Posted By: NebDane Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/09/16 04:24 AM
If you don't want a divorce, then do nothing to help her.
At the same time you need to be ready to play hard ball using your attorney, she is trying to manipulate you. Remember when we said to DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT.

Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/09/16 02:02 PM
Originally Posted by NebDane
If you don't want a divorce, then do nothing to help her.
At the same time you need to be ready to play hard ball using your attorney, she is trying to manipulate you. Remember when we said to DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT.

Basically, my strategy has been to turn over the information she is giving me to the attorney and asking her to play hardball with the other attorney... I absolutely will refuse to get drawn into an argument with my WW.

I was thinking about the plan B that Dr Harley suggested... he said get divorced, then try to date her. Do I do that, or prepare to go completely dark?

Also, I think her motivation for divorce right now can only be one of two things #1 she plans to move the OM here #2 She has inheritance comming. .

That said, I don't know if u should run road block on this divorce or help it along so I can execute Dr Harley 's plan???


Posted By: NebDane Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/09/16 06:43 PM
Use the inheritance as a lever if you go the divorce route.

What plan you go with is your call, I would plan A for now and do it correctly. You have nothing to loose except swallowing some pride in the short term.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/09/16 07:19 PM
Originally Posted by NebDane
Use the inheritance as a lever if you go the divorce route.

What plan you go with is your call, I would plan A for now and do it correctly. You have nothing to loose except swallowing some pride in the short term.

How do I use the inheritance to my advantage? The grandma hasn't even passed away yet, but he is about 100.

I keep asking her to do something, anything, even small things and she says "why do I want to do that with you... WE are getting divorced... we don't want to do things with each other " I just say, I don't want a divorce... if you are divorcing me, I can't stop you... but it's immoral and wrong and I don't want anything to do with it... lets go for a walk"...

At this point, her mind is so set on this divorce. I was thinking of Dr Harley's advice.. to just divorce her, but I know, after that, I'll never want her back again.

Today, she actually said.. if you want to do something together so bad, why don't we get you set up on a dating site? I said that would be morally wrong.. it's adultery, and I would never do that.

Help... I need a plan. What should I say to her?
Posted By: black_raven Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/10/16 02:14 AM
Originally Posted by typicalman
I was thinking of Dr Harley's advice.. to just divorce her

I agree with this advice in your situation.

Quote
but I know, after that, I'll never want her back again.

Did you ever think you would Plan A a woman who has put you through the ringer? You don't know for sure you would never want her back...maybe you wouldn't, maybe you would but your wife is already gone and is damaging/using your children.

I live in TX. That a judge didn't have you return the children after she ran off with them says a lot and was a big plus in your favor. You were in a great position to seek sole or at least primary custody. I know finances are not the #1 issue here but you also risk having to pay her spousal support for years if the divorce gets called off and then things don't improve only with D to be filed again. You will then meet the 10 yr requirement.
Posted By: black_raven Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/10/16 02:18 AM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Today, she actually said.. if you want to do something together so bad, why don't we get you set up on a dating site? I said that would be morally wrong.. it's adultery, and I would never do that.

Help... I need a plan. What should I say to her?

What you said in response to her suggesting setting up an online dating profile was good. She is trying to even the playing field with you and also push your buttons. When she does that responding with something simple is fine. You can then change the subject to something else and if she continues to push the issue then disengage and leave her alone.

Posted By: WrestlerChemist Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/10/16 04:25 AM
Originally Posted by typicalman
.

Today, she actually said.. if you want to do something together so bad, why don't we get you set up on a dating site? I said that would be morally wrong.. it's adultery, and I would never do that.

Nice response!
Posted By: axslinger85 Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/10/16 06:22 AM
I agree it was a great response about setting up a dating site, but maybe not the best response to her statement about divorce. If you are hammering her over the head about her plans being immoral you are probably lovebusting her.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/10/16 01:53 PM
Originally Posted by axslinger85
I agree it was a great response about setting up a dating site, but maybe not the best response to her statement about divorce. If you are hammering her over the head about her plans being immoral you are probably lovebusting her.

Yes, you are right. I am making a Judgement about Divorce. It is morally wrong and I won't fall into her trap and "go in it with her" as if it is something we are doing together.

I won't renounce my convictions and morals in the name of not love busting. That is the line I won't cross.

There are things we are just not going to see eye to eye on here... so to avoid the love busters (or the fight) I have been simply using a "one liner" to end the conversation, and ask about something else.

The real question I have now is... if she divorces me; do I plan for a dark plan B or do I plan to try to date her still?

Dr Harley suggested that I try to date her... But I was thinking "cold, dark, plan B" so she knows what divorce is like.

I spent the greater part of yesterday rebuilding the hydo-boost in the truck that she is driving. Anyone who knows what that is would know that it's about a $900 job in a shop. Her response was not to say thank you... but she said... you probably just pretended to fix the truck so you could take my parking spot. She has no appreciation for anything I do and she will continue to take advantage of me after divorce. I think she should experience the real world for a while... what do you think?
Posted By: living_well Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/10/16 02:41 PM
Originally Posted by typicalman
She has no appreciation for anything I do and she will continue to take advantage of me after divorce. I think she should experience the real world for a while... what do you think?


Do you want her to come back as an act of desperation or do you want her to come back because she is in love with you?
Posted By: apples123 Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/10/16 03:38 PM
Plan B would feel great for you. You've mentioned talking about concerns with the kids when you spoke with Dr. Harley, though. Basically, you are body-blocking other men. I suspect your wife will quickly have a new man after the divorce.

Email Dr. Harley.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/10/16 04:10 PM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by typicalman
She has no appreciation for anything I do and she will continue to take advantage of me after divorce. I think she should experience the real world for a while... what do you think?


Do you want her to come back as an act of desperation or do you want her to come back because she is in love with you?

Of course, I want her to be in love.. but that won't happen if she does not spend time with me and it won't happen until she realizes the other man cannot meet her needs and infact he is just a ticket to misery. She wants to have both right now.... and, yes... I am soooo much looking forward to having a mental break from her. I am also thinking that this OM will be waiting in the wings forever if I don't simply let her go and let the relationship die under its own weight. What do I do? After the comment about the dating site, it does seem certain now that he is waiting in the wings... that was textbook WW.

Do I not need to let her hit bottom... or this goes on forever? I have no hope for her being in love right now with her love bank closed.

Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/10/16 07:11 PM
Did you ever write Dr. Harley again?
Posted By: Prisca Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/10/16 10:31 PM
Quote
I won't renounce my convictions and morals in the name of not love busting. That is the line I won't cross.
Then you do not have any hope for a romantic marriage. You can hold a belief and still not lecture and lovebust your wife. Yet you continue to choose to lovebust.

Too bad your convictions and morals do not include protecting your wife.

Quote
The real question I have now is... if she divorces me; do I plan for a dark plan B or do I plan to try to date her still?

Dr Harley suggested that I try to date her... But I was thinking "cold, dark, plan B" so she knows what divorce is like.
Yes, go to Plan B. Do not date her. There is no hope for this marriage to survive with your continued lovebusters.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/10/16 10:33 PM
Quote
But I was thinking "cold, dark, plan B" so she knows what divorce is like.
And don't go to a "cold, dark, plan B" just in order to show her anything. That's not what Plan B is about. When a man goes to Plan B, just about all bets are off and the marriage is over for good.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/11/16 12:40 AM
Anybody who reserves the right to lovebust over anything cannot have a good marriage.
Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/11/16 03:19 AM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Anybody who reserves the right to lovebust over anything cannot have a good marriage.

My conviction is that I don't believe in divorce... I won't sit around and discuss it with her. I don't know where you got the impression that I lecture her about it because I don't. I simply say that it is wrong and I won't discuss it. I would never have married someone that believes in divorce. My wife did not believe in divorce either... that is until the affair. The advice on this forum has been to not go along with the divorce discussion. I don't know where you got the impression that I am pontificating about it though... I am not. I will just say that it is wrong, hurtful, and I change the subject... that is it. Do I feel that I have a superior point of view... well, to have a marriage, I would think both people should agree on the concept of marriage as the basis... beyond that point, neither should think they hold a superior point of view.

If I were to entertain her divorce discussions and consider her viewpoint that divorce is OK, that would also go again the advice on this forum right? Going along with a divorce? In the long run, if we do reconcile... she will remember that I supported divorce and didn't stand up for our marriage... that is much worse, right???? Isn't it OK to lovebust if it is to reject the idea of getting divorced? Just as it was to reject the idea of her having a boyfriend? Perhaps you could explain this further...

Posted By: Prisca Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/11/16 04:05 AM
Originally Posted by typicalman
Originally Posted by Prisca
Anybody who reserves the right to lovebust over anything cannot have a good marriage.

My conviction is that I don't believe in divorce... I won't sit around and discuss it with her. I don't know where you got the impression that I lecture her about it because I don't. I simply say that it is wrong and I won't discuss it. I would never have married someone that believes in divorce. My wife did not believe in divorce either... that is until the affair. The advice on this forum has been to not go along with the divorce discussion. I don't know where you got the impression that I am pontificating about it though... I am not. I will just say that it is wrong, hurtful, and I change the subject... that is it. Do I feel that I have a superior point of view... well, to have a marriage, I would think both people should agree on the concept of marriage as the basis... beyond that point, neither should think they hold a superior point of view.

I am referring to this:

Quote
Yes, you are right. I am making a Judgement about Divorce. It is morally wrong and I won't fall into her trap and "go in it with her" as if it is something we are doing together.

I won't renounce my convictions and morals in the name of not love busting. That is the line I won't cross.
It is possible to have convictions without lovebusting your wife. But, if you reserve the right to lovebust because you feel strongly about something (even morals), you will never have a good marriage. Period.

Quote
Isn't it OK to lovebust if it is to reject the idea of getting divorced? Just as it was to reject the idea of her having a boyfriend? Perhaps you could explain this further...

NO. It is never okay to lovebust, even in the face of an affair. NEVER. That is, IF you want a marriage. Lovebusters are not tools to be used to make a better marriage.

If your wife were here, I'd advise her to continue with the divorce. Like I said earlier, it is too bad that your "convictions" do not include "protect your wife." You are not following this plan now, and you haven't been. Instead, you keep twisting it to suite your own tastes.

Posted By: typicalman Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/11/16 04:09 AM
With regard to lecturing her... there is a fine point I should say that is probably missed. I have the right to say how I feel... and if the topic is morally not right for me to discuss... I have the right to do that. I am not passing jugment on her... just setting limits on what I will and won't do.

She may feel judged... but to an extent, that is hard to control. I'll give an example.. I go to church. I give her the option to come, but if she does not, I go anyway. She may feel that I am morally superior for that, but that is what it is. No lecture, no body language, I just go to mass. Regardless of the marriage builders pronciples... God comes first, then wife, family, country, job... etc... marriage is until death, but salvation is eternity... so, yes.. God should come first. I am treating divorce the same... no lecture, no body language... but I don't need to discuss it if I feel it is wrong...once my wife is gone, I am left with God and my kids. I need to look them both in the eye and sat I did the right thing.

I may change my mind on divorce once I am certain that what she has done deserves divorce. My clergy, Dr Harley, and the folks on this board have said that I have the right to divorce her... but it still is something that needs to come from my heart... I was wanting for her to come out of the FOG and then make that decision, but she does not seem to be coming out of it.

I may be making some lovebusters along the way... but I have been treating her really well. She seems to like spending time with me. She seems to be willing to talk to me quite a but during the day... but, she has a closed love bank.... seems to indicate an active affair going on and I can't get her to stop it.

Also, I did make a deal with her to go on a date with me today... I won't go into specifics on how I did it, but she agreed.

From our discussions, she justifies this divorce because I am the one that broke our marriage vows, I cheated on her, I lied about it. I made up the whole thing about her affair just so I could divorce her. I am dead serious.. and these are the false memories that she has created to justify her affair. She found one small piece of evidence.... a going away card from another woman at work. There was nothing inappropriate in it... but she was searching for something to make me the bad guy.

Anyway... make no mistake.. I know better than to lecture or present my view as superior, but I have also taken the advice to nor enable the affair and not enable the divorce so I felt I did need a one liner to end that conversation.

To avoid future love busters though... I can just say "wanna take a walk" "want some desert?"... I am fine with that.

At some point.. if I feel that the divorce is right...should I discuss it with her? I think the answer is no... never negotiate with a wayward.

Do I go dark on plan B? I don't know. It will help me end my pain and suffering. If I go dark, I was thinking it might help expedite ending the affair because she would have needs not being met by the OM...

If I don't go dark... I could try to date her... but then, I am meeting some of her needs, the OM is meeting sone... and she has what she wants and this goes on forever as well as my pain and suffering.

It's a delema... I think this is what I should ask Dr Harley... to his point, if I go through with the divorce, there is a good chance she will not go through with it...

She does not seem to realize that she won't be staying in the house. She does not seem to realize there is no spousal support and she does not seem to realize that she will be without the kids for half the time... it's still a fantasy for her. You may say that I am judging... I am not.. this is what she has told me versus what my attorney has told me... She may realize that before we get to the final divorce, this doesn't look so good. That was one of Dr Harley's thoughts.
Posted By: Toujours Re: Plan A hurting children - 01/11/16 04:21 AM
The purpose of this forum is to help posters learn and implement Marriage Builders steps. Since your focus does not seem to be on following these principles, we will be locking this thread. If you change your mind and decide to follow the principles, let us know and we will unlock this thread so you can receive assistance. We wish you the best.
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